Podcast appearances and mentions of jeff now

Jeff Morris, VP of Product & Solutions Marketing at Couchbase, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss Couchbase's new columnar data store functionality, specific use cases for columnar data stores, and why AI gets better when it communicates with a cleaner pool of data. Jeff shares how more responsive databases could allow businesses like Dominos and United Airlines to create hyper-personalized experiences for their customers by utilizing more responsive databases. Jeff dives into the linked future of AI and data, and Corey learns about Couchbase's plans for the re:Invent conference. If you're attending re:Invent, you can visit Couchbase at booth 1095.About JeffJeff Morris is VP Product & Solutions Marketing at Couchbase (NASDAQ: BASE), a cloud database platform company that 30% of the Fortune 100 depend on.Links Referenced:Couchbase: https://www.couchbase.com/TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. This promoted guest episode of Screaming in the Cloud is brought to us by our friends at Couchbase. Also brought to us by Couchbase is today's victim, for lack of a better term. Jeff Morris is their VP of Product and Solutions Marketing. Jeff, thank you for joining me.Jeff: Thanks for having me, Corey, even though I guess I paid for it.Corey: Exactly. It's always great to say thank you when people give you things. I learned this from a very early age, and the only people who didn't were rude children and turned into worse adults.Jeff: Exactly.Corey: So, you are effectively announcing something new today, and I always get worried when a database company says that because sometimes it's a license that is going to upset people, sometimes it's dyed so deep in the wool of generative AI that, “Oh, we're now supporting vectors or whatnot.” Well, most of us don't know what that means.Jeff: Right.Corey: Fortunately, I don't believe that's what you're doing today. What have you got for us?Jeff: So, you're right. It's—well, what I'm doing is, we're announcing new stuff inside of Couchbase and helping Couchbase expand its market footprint, but we're not really moving away from our sweet spot, either, right? We like building—or being the database platform underneath applications. So, push us on the operational side of the operational versus analytic, kind of, database divide. But we are announcing a columnar data store inside of the Couchbase platform so that we can build bigger, better, stronger analytic functionality to feed the applications that we're supporting with our customers.Corey: Now, I feel like I should ask a question around what a columnar data store is because my first encounter with the term was when I had a very early client for AWS bill optimization when I was doing this independently, and I was asking them the… polite question of, “Why do you have 283 billion objects in a single S3 bucket? That is atypical and kind of terrifying.” And their answer was, “Oh, we built our own columnar data store on top of S3. This might not have been the best approach.” It's like, “I'm going to stop you there. With no further information, I can almost guarantee you that it was not.” But what is a columnar data store?Jeff: Well, let's start with the, everybody loves more data and everybody loves to count more things, right, but a columnar data store allows you to expedite the kind of question that you ask of the data itself by not having to look at every single row of the data while you go through it. You can say, if you know you're only looking for data that's inside of California, you just look at the column value of find me everything in California and then I'll pick all of those records to analyze. So, it gives you a faster way to go through the data while you're trying to gather it up and perform aggregations against it.Corey: It seems like it's one of those, “Well, that doesn't sound hard,” type of things, when you're thinking about it the way that I do, in terms of a database being more or less a medium to large size Excel spreadsheet. But I have it on good faith from all the customer environments. I've worked with that no, no, there are data stores that span even larger than that, which is, you know, one of those sad realities of the world. And everything at scale begins to be a heck of a lot harder. I've seen some of the value that this stuff offers and I can definitely understand a few different workloads in which case that's going to be super handy. What are you targeting specifically? Or is this one of those areas where you're going to learn from your customers?Jeff: Well, we've had analytic functionality inside the platform. It just, at the size and scale customers actually wanted to roam through the data, we weren't supporting that that much. So, we'll expand that particular footprint, it'll give us better integration capabilities with external systems, or better access to things in your bucket. But the use case problem is, I think, going to be driven by what new modern application requirements are going to be. You're going to need, we call it hyper-personalization because we tend to cater to B2C-style applications, things with a lot of account profiles built into them.So, you look at account profile, and you're like, “Oh, well Jeff likes blue, so sell him blue stuff.” And that's a great current level personalization, but with a new analytic engine against this, you can maybe start aggregating all the inventory information that you might have of all the blue stuff that you want to sell me and do that in real-time, so I'm getting better recommendations, better offers as I'm shopping on your site or looking at my phone and, you know, looking for the next thing I want to buy.Corey: I'm sure there's massive amounts of work that goes into these hyper-personalization stories. The problem is that the only time they really rise to our notice is when they fail hilariously. Like, you just bought a TV, would you like to buy another? Now statistically, you are likelier to buy a second TV right after you buy one, but for someone who just, “Well, I'm replacing my living room TV after ten years,” it feels ridiculous. Or when you buy a whole bunch of nails and they don't suggest, “Would you like to also perhaps buy a hammer?”It's one of those areas where it just seems like a human putting thought into this could make some sense. But I've seen some of the stuff that can come out of systems like this and it can be incredible. I also personally tend to bias towards use cases that are less, here's how to convince you to buy more things and start aiming in a bunch of other different directions where it starts meeting emerging use cases or changing situations rapidly, more rapidly than a human can in some cases. The world has, for better or worse, gotten an awful lot faster over the last few decades.Jeff: Yeah. And think of it in terms of how responsive can I be at any given moment. And so, let's pick on one of the more recent interesting failures that has popped up. I'm a Giants fan, San Francisco Giants fan, so I'll pick on the Dodgers. The Dodgers during the baseball playoffs, Clayton Kershaw—three-time MVP, Cy Young Award winner, great, great pitcher—had a first-inning meltdown of colossal magnitude: gave up 11 runs in the first inning to the Diamondbacks.Well, my customer Domino's Pizza could end up—well, let's shift the focus of our marketing. We—you know, the Dodgers are the best team in baseball this year in the National League—let's focus our attention there, but with that meltdown, let's pivot to Arizona and focus on our market in Phoenix. And they could do that within minutes or seconds, even, with the kinds of capabilities that we're coming up with here so that they can make better offers to that new environment and also do the decision intelligence behind it. Like, do I have enough dough to make a bigger offer in that big market? Do I have enough drivers or do I have to go and spin out and get one of the other food delivery folks—UberEats, or something like that—to jump on board with me and partner up on this kind of system?It's that responsiveness in real, real-time, right, that's always been kind of the conundrum between applications and analytics. You get an analytic insight, but it takes you an hour or a day to incorporate that into what the application is doing. This is intended to make all of that stuff go faster. And of course, when we start to talk about things in AI, right, AI is going to expect real-time responsiveness as best you can make it.Corey: I figure we have to talk about AI. That is a technology that has absolutely sprung to the absolute peak of the hype curve over the past year. OpenAI released Chat-Gippity, either late last year or early this year and suddenly every company seems to be falling all over itself to rebrand itself as an AI company, where, “We've been working on this for decades,” they say, right before they announce something that very clearly was crash-developed in six months. And every company is trying to drape themselves in the mantle of AI. And I don't want to sound like I'm a doubter here. I'm like most fans; I see an awful lot of value here. But I am curious to get your take on what do you think is real and what do you think is not in the current hype environment.Jeff: So yeah, I love that. I think there's a number of things that are, you know, are real is, it's not going away. It is going to continue to evolve and get better and better and better. One of my analyst friends came up with the notion that the exercise of generative AI, it's imprecise, so it gives you similarity things, and that's actually an improvement, in many cases, over the precision of a database. Databases, a transaction either works or it doesn't. It has failover or it doesn't, when—Corey: It's ideally deterministic when you ask it a question—Jeff: Yes.Corey: —the same question a second time, assuming it's not time-bound—Jeff: Gives you the right answer.Corey: Yeah, the sa—or at least the same answer.Jeff: The same answer. And your gen AI may not. So, that's a part of the oddity of the hype. But then it also helps me kind of feed our storyline of if you're going to try and make Gen AI closer and more accurate, you need a clean pool of data that you're dealing with, even though you've got probably—your previous design was such that you would use a relational database for transactions, a document database for your user profiles, you'd probably attach your website to a caching database because you needed speed and a lot of concurrency. Well, now you got three different databases there that you're operating.And if you're feeding data from each of those databases back to AI, one of them might be wrong or one of them might confuse the AI, yet how are you going to know? The complexity level is going to become, like, exponential. So, our premise is, because we're a multi-modal database that incorporates in-memory speed and documents and search and transactions and the like, if you start with a cleaner pool of data, you'll have less complexity that you're offering to your AI system and therefore you can steer it into becoming more accurate in its response. And then, of course, all the data that we're dealing with is on mobile, right? Data is created there for, let's say, your account profile, and then it's also consumed there because that's what people are using as their application interface of choice.So, you also want to have mobile interactivity and synchronization and local storage, kind of, capabilities built in there. So, those are kind of, you know, a couple of the principles that we're looking at of, you know, JSON is going to be a great format for it regardless of what happens; complexity is kind of the enemy of AI, so you don't want to go there; and mobility is going to be an absolute requirement. And then related to this particular announcement, large-scale aggregation is going to be a requirement to help feed the application. There's always going to be some other bigger calculation that you're going to want to do relatively in real time and feed it back to your users or the AI system that's helping them out.Corey: I think that that is a much more nuanced use case than a lot of the stuff that's grabbing customer attentions where you effectively have the Chat-Gippity story of it being an incredible parrot. Where I have run into trouble with the generative story has been people putting the thing that the robot that's magic and from the future has come up with off the cuff and just hurling that out into the universe under their own name without any human review, and that's fine sometimes sure, but it does get it hilariously wrong at some points. And the idea of sending something out under my name that has not been at least reviewed by me if not actually authored by me, is abhorrent. I mean, I review even the transactional, “Yes, you have successfully subscribed,” or, “Sorry to see you go,” email confirmations on stuff because there's an implicit, “Hugs and puppies, love Corey,” at the end of everything that goes out under my name.Jeff: Right.Corey: But I've gotten a barrage of terrible sales emails and companies that are trying to put the cart before the horse where either the, “Support rep,” quote-unquote, that I'm speaking to in the chat is an AI system or else needs immediate medical attention because there's something going on that needs assistance.Jeff: Yeah, they just don't understand.Corey: Right. And most big enterprise stories that I've heard so far that have come to light have been around the form of, “We get to fire most of our customer service staff,” an outcome that basically no one sensible wants. That is less compelling than a lot of the individualized consumer use cases. I love asking it, “Here's a blog post I wrote. Give me ten title options.” And I'll usually take one of them—one of them is usually not half bad and then I can modify it slightly.Jeff: And you'll change four words in it. Yeah.Corey: Yeah, exactly. That's a bit of a different use case.Jeff: It's been an interesting—even as we've all become familiar—or at least junior prompt engineers, right—is, your information is only going to be as good as you feed the AI system—the return is only going to be as good—so you're going to want to refine that kind of conversation. Now, we're not trying to end up replacing the content that gets produced or the writing of all kinds of pros, other than we do have a code generator that works inside of our environment called Capella iQ that talks to ChatGPT, but we try and put guardrails on that too, right, as always make sure that it's talking in terms of the context of Couchbase rather than, “Where's Taylor Swift this week,” which I don't want it to answer because I don't want to spend GPT money to answer that question for you.Corey: And it might not know the right answer, but it might very well spit out something that sounds plausible.Jeff: Exactly. But I think the kinds of applications that we're steering ourselves toward can be helped along by the Gen AI systems, but I don't expect all my customers are going to be writing automatic blog post generation kinds of applications. I think what we're ultimately trying to do is facilitate interactions in a way that we haven't dreamt of yet, right? One of them might be if I've opted into to loyalty programs, like my United account and my American Express account—Corey: That feels very targeted at my lifestyle as well, so please, continue.Jeff: Exactly, right? And so, what I really want the system to do is for Amex to reward me when I hit 1k status on United while I'm on the flight and you know, have the flight attendant come up and be like, “Hey, you did it. Either, here's a free upgrade from American Express”—that would be hyper-personalization because you booked your plane ticket with it, but they also happen to know or they cross-consumed information that I've opted into.Corey: I've seen them congratulate people for hitting a million miles flown mid-flight, but that's clearly something that they've been tracking and happens a heck of a lot less frequently. This is how you start scaling that experience.Jeff: Yes. But that happened because American Airlines was always watching because that was an American Airlines ad ages ago, right, but the same principle holds true. But I think there's going to be a lot more of these: how much information am I actually allowing to be shared amongst the, call it loyalty programs, but the data sources that I've opted into. And my God, there's hundreds of them that I've personally opted into, whether I like it or not because everybody needs my email address, kind of like what you were describing earlier.Corey: A point that I have that I think agrees largely with your point is that few things to me are more frustrating than what I'm signing up, for example, oh, I don't know, an AWS even—gee, I can't imagine there's anything like that going on this week—and I have to fill out an entire form that always asked me the same questions: how big my company is, whether we have multiple workloads on, what industry we're in. And no matter what I put into that, first, it never remembers me for the next time, which is frustrating in its own right, but two, no matter what I put in to fill that thing out, the email I get does not change as a result. At one point, I said, all right—I'm picking randomly—“I am a venture capitalist based in Sweden,” and I got nothing that is differentiated from the other normal stuff I get tied to my account because I use a special email address for those things, sometimes just to see what happens. And no, if you're going to make me jump through the hoops to give you the data, at least use it to make my experience better. It feels like I'm asking for the moon here, but I shouldn't be.Jeff: Yes. [we need 00:16:19] to make your experience better and say, you know, “Here's four companies in Malmo that you ought to be talking to. And they happen to be here at the AWS event and you can go find them because their booth is here, here, and here.” That kind of immediate responsiveness could be facilitated, and to our point, ought to be facilitated. It's exactly like that kind of thing is, use the data in real-time.I was talking to somebody else today that was discussing that most data, right, becomes stale and unvaluable, like, 50% of the data, its value goes to zero after about a day. And some of it is stale after about an hour. So, if you can end up closing that responsiveness gap that we were describing—and this is kind of what this columnar service inside of Capella is going to be like—is react in real-time with real-time calculation and real-time look-up and real-time—find out how you might apply that new piece of information right now and then give it back to the consumer or the user right now.Corey: So, Couchbase takes a few different forms. I should probably, at least for those who are not steeped in the world of exotic forms of database, I always like making these conversations more accessible to folks who are not necessarily up to speed. Personally, I tend to misuse anything as a database, if I can hold it just the wrong way.Jeff: The wrong way. I've caught that about you.Corey: Yeah, it's—everything is a database if you hold it wrong. But you folks have a few different options: you have a self-managed commercial offering; you're an open-source project, so I can go ahead and run it on my own infrastructure however I want; and you have Capella, which is Couchbase as a service. And all of those are useful and have their points, and I'm sure I'm missing at least one or two along the way. But do you find that the columnar use case is going to disproportionately benefit folks using Capella in ways that the self-hosted version would not be as useful for, or is this functionality already available in other expressions of Couchbase?Jeff: It's not already available in other expressions, although there is analytic functionality in the self-managed version of Couchbase. But it's, as I've mentioned I think earlier, it's just not as scalable or as really real-time as far as we're thinking. So, it's going to—yes, it's going to benefit the database as a service deployments of Couchbase available on your favorite three clouds, and still interoperable with environments that you might self-manage and self-host. So, there could be even use cases where our development team or your development team builds in AWS using the cloud-oriented features, but is still ultimately deploying and hosting and managing a self-managed environment. You could still do all of that. So, there's still a great interplay and interoperability amongst our different deployment options.But the fun part, I think, about this is not only is it going to help the Capella user, there's a lot of other things inside Couchbase that help address the developers' penchant for trading zero-cost for degrees of complexity that you're willing to accept because you want everything to be free and open-source. And Couchbase is my fifth open-source company in my background, so I'm well, well versed in the nuances of what open-source developers are seeking. But what makes Couchbase—you know, its origin story really cool too, though, is it's the peanut butter and chocolate marriage of memcached and the people behind that and membase and CouchDB from [Couch One 00:19:54]. So, I can't think of that many—maybe Red Hat—project and companies that formed up by merging two complementary open-source projects. So, we took the scale and—Corey: You have OpenTelemetry, I think, that did that once, but that—you see occasional mergers, but it's very far from common.Jeff: But it's very, very infrequent. But what that made the Couchbase people end up doing is make a platform that will scale, make a data design that you can auto partition anywhere, anytime, and then build independently scalable services on top of that, one for SQL++, the query language. Anyone who knows SQL will be able to write something in Couchbase immediately. And I've got this AI Automator, iQ, that makes it even easier; you just say, “Write me a SQL++ query that does this,” and it'll do that. But then we added full-text search, we added eventing so you can stream data, we added the analytics capability originally and now we're enhancing it, and use JSON as our kind of universal data format so that we can trade data with applications really easily.So, it's a cool design to start with, and then in the cloud, we're steering towards things like making your entry point and using our database as a service—Capella—really, really, really inexpensive so that you get that same robustness of functionality, as well as the easy cost of entry that today's developers want. And it's my analyst friends that keep telling me the cloud is where the markets going to go, so we're steering ourselves towards that hockey puck location.Corey: I frequently remark that the role of the DBA might not be vanishing, but it's definitely changing, especially since the last time I counted, if you hold them and use as directed, AWS has something on the order of 14 distinct managed database offerings. Some are general purpose, some are purpose-built, and if this trend keeps up, in a decade, the DBA role is going to be determining which of its 40 databases is going to be the right fit for a given workload. That seems to be the counter-approach to a general-purpose database that works across the board. Clearly you folks have opinions on this. Where do you land?Jeff: Oh, so absolutely. There's the product that is a suite of capabilities—or that are individual capabilities—and then there's ones that are, in my case, kind of multi-model and do lots of things at once. I think historically, you'll recognize—because this is—let's pick on your phone—the same holds true for, you know, your phone used to be a watch, used to be a Palm Pilot, used to be a StarTAC telephone, and your calendar application, your day planner all at the same time. Well, it's not anymore. Technology converges upon itself; it's kind of a historical truism.And the database technologies are going to end up doing that—or continue to do that, even right now. So, that notion that—it's a ten-year-old notion of use a purpose-built database for that particular workload. Maybe sometimes in extreme cases that is the appropriate thing, but in more cases than not right now, if you need transactions when you need them, that's fine, I can do that. You don't necessarily need Aurora or RDS or Postgres to do that. But when you need search and geolocation, I support that too, so you don't need Elastic. And then when you need caching and everything, you don't need ElastiCache; it's all built-in.So, that multi-model notion of operate on the same pool of data, it's a lot less complex for your developers, they can code faster and better and more cleanly, debugging is significantly easier. As I mentioned, SQL++ is our language. It's basically SQL syntax for JSON. We're a reference implementation of this language, along with—[AsteriskDB 00:23:42] is one of them, and actually, the original author of that language also wrote DynamoDB's PartiQL.So, it's a common language that you wouldn't necessarily imagine, but the ease of entry in all of this, I think, is still going to be a driving goal for people. The old people like me and you are running around worrying about, am I going to get a particular, really specific feature out of the full-text search environment, or the other one that I pick on now is, “Am I going to need a vector database, too?” And the answer to me is no, right? There's going—you know, the database vendors like ourselves—and like Mongo has announced and a whole bunch of other NoSQL vendors—we're going to support that. It's going to be just another mode, and you get better bang for your buck when you've got more modes than a single one at a time.Corey: The consensus opinion that's emerging is very much across the board that vector is a feature, not a database type.Jeff: Not a category, yeah. Me too. And yeah, we're well on board with that notion, as well. And then like I said earlier, the JSON as a vehicle to give you all of that versatility is great, right? You can have vector information inside a JSON document, you can have time series information in the document, you could have graph node locations and ID numbers in a JSON array, so you don't need index-free adjacency or some of the other cleverness that some of my former employers have done. It really is all converging upon itself and hopefully everybody starts to realize that you can clean up and simplify your architectures as you look ahead, so that you do—if you're going to build AI-powered applications—feed it clean data, right? You're going to be better off.Corey: So, this episode is being recorded in advance, thankfully, but it's going to release the first day of re:Invent. What are you folks doing at the show, for those who are either there and for some reason, listening to a podcast rather than going to getting marketed to by a variety of different pitches that all mention AI or might even be watching from home and trying to figure out what to make of it?Jeff: Right. So, of course we have a booth, and my notes don't have in front of me what our booth number is, but you'll see it on the signs in the airport. So, we'll have a presence there, we'll have an executive briefing room available, so we can schedule time with anyone who wants to come talk to us. We'll be showing not only the capabilities that we're offering here, we'll show off Capella iQ, our coding assistant, okay—so yeah, we're on the AI hype band—but we'll also be showing things like our mobile sync capability where my phone and your phone can synchronize data amongst themselves without having to actually have a live connection to the internet. So, long as we're on the same network locally within the Venetian's network, we have an app that we have people download from the Apple Store and then it's a color synchronization app or picture synchronization app.So, you tap it, and it changes on my screen and I tap it and it changes on your screen, and we'll have, I don't know, as many people who are around standing there, synchronizing, what, maybe 50 phones at a time. It's actually a pretty slick demonstration of why you might want a database that's not only in the cloud but operates around the cloud, operates mobile-ly, operates—you know, can connect and disconnect to your networks. It's a pretty neat scenario. So, we'll be showing a bunch of cool technical stuff as well as talking about the things that we're discussing right now.Corey: I will say you're putting an awful lot of faith in conductivity working at re:Invent, be it WiFi or the cellular network. I know that both of those have bitten me in various ways over the years. But I wish you the best on it. I think it's going to be an interesting show based upon everything I've heard in the run-up to it. I'm just glad it's here.Jeff: Now, this is the cool part about what I'm talking about, though. The cool part about what I'm talking about is we can set up our own wireless network in our booth, and we still—you'd have to go to the app store to get this application, but once there, I can have you switch over to my local network and play around on it and I can sync the stuff right there and have confidence that in my local network that's in my booth, the system's working. I think that's going to be ultimately our design there because oh my gosh, yes, I have a hundred stories about connectivity and someone blowing a demo because they're yanking on a cable behind the pulpit, right?Corey: I always build in a—and assuming there's no connectivity, how can I fake my demos, just because it's—I've only had to do it once, but you wind up planning in advance when you start doing a talk to a large enough or influential enough audience where you want things to go right.Jeff: There's a delightful acceptance right now of recorded videos and demonstrations that people sort of accept that way because of exactly all this. And I'm sure we'll be showing that in our booth there too.Corey: Given the non-deterministic nature of generative AI, I'm sort of surprised whenever someone hasn't mocked the demo in advance, just because yeah, gives the right answer in the rehearsal, but every once in a while, it gets completely unglued.Jeff: Yes, and we see it pretty regularly. So, the emergence of clever and good prompt engineering is going to be a big skill for people. And hopefully, you know, everybody's going to figure out how to pass it along to their peers.Corey: Excellent. We'll put links to all this in the show notes, and I look forward to seeing how well this works out for you. Best of luck at the show and thanks for speaking with me. I appreciate it.Jeff: Yeah, Corey. We appreciate the support, and I think the show is going to be very strong for us as well. And thanks for having me here.Corey: Always a pleasure. Jeff Morris, VP of Product and Solutions Marketing at Couchbase. This episode has been brought to us by our friends at Couchbase. And I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry comment, but if you want to remain happy, I wouldn't ask that podcast platform what database they're using. No one likes the answer to those things.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

Without question, the last several months have accelerated ecommerce adoption and drastically changed consumer behavior. The entire sales lifecycle from finding a prospect to closing the deal has been turned upside down. Now two key obstacles lie in the path of ecommerce leaders… The first is the more obvious, more discussed problem: How do you operationally and technically need to change to meet your customers' evolving needs?  The second key obstacle is not as often addressed, but is equally as important: How do you then communicate to your customers that even in these changing times, you are equipped and ready to meet their new needs?  The binding and laminating business doesn’t sound like it would be ripe with insights into answers to both of these questions, but Jeff McRitchie, the VP of eCommerce at Spiral, is here to prove that assumption wrong.  Jeff has nearly two decades of experience in the ecommerce and digital space. Just last year, his own company, MyBinding.com, was acquired by Spiral, where he now helps lead ecommerce operations. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Jeff explains what it has been like merging his ecommerce business with a more traditional binding company. He shares some of the challenges he faced along the way, and what methods and strategies he’s leaned into to find success. Jeff also discusses tips for building out a winning SEO and content strategy, and how ecommerce is playing a larger role across the entire business, including in customer acquisition and content marketing.  Main Takeaways:   The Merge: When a primarily ecommerce company merges with a larger more traditional business, there are a lot of balls in the air to create a cohesive and efficient system. Most of the adjustments have to be made on the side of the acquiring company, which needs to learn how to compete in a digital marketplace. That means that education has to be a priority both internally and externally.    Use Their Words: Every industry has jargon and industry-speak. It’s easy to fall into the trap of using that language throughout your platforms and channels. Instead, you have to meet customers where they are with their own language, and use the words and phrases they use. This will ensure that your customers feel like you are speaking directly to them and it also helps create more longtail SEO opportunities. Content For Now that Pays Off Later: Some of the most-viewed content you create might be consumed after a customer makes a purchase. On the surface, that might make it seem like content-creation is not a good customer acquisition strategy. On the contrary, it’s actually a critical long-term strategy in the sense that good, useful content is critical for brand awareness and building trust, which customers will remember when they need to buy in the future. For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Welcome to another episode of Up Next In Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles. Today on the show, we have Jeff McRitchie, the VP of Ecommerce at Spiral Binding, My Binding and Binding 101. Jeff welcome. Jeff: Thank you. Stephanie: Thanks for coming on the show. I was excited when I was looking through Spiral's background. It looked like you guys started in 1932. Is that right? Jeff: Yeah. I mean, we've been around for a long time. Stephanie: Yeah. I think that'll make for a really fun conversation because I'm sure that the company and you have seen a lot of transformation over the years, so that'll be fun to dive into later. Jeff: For sure. Stephanie: Tell me a bit about Spiral. What is it? How do I think about what you guys do? Jeff: So Spiral is really a company and we've built ourselves around helping people to bind presentations and proposals. We do a little bit of laminating. We do a little bit of other things, but really we focus a lot on binding. We sell the equipment and the supplies for people to be able to bind presentations, proposals, books and training materials. Those are probably the primary things that come out of it. Jeff: We're a niche player in the office products market is one way to think about it. We're an interesting a hybrid of a company because we sell a little bit in B2B, a lot in B2B, a lot in B2C or B2B to C sort of space. Then we also have some really interesting national account sort of business as well. Kind of a little bit of an evolving company, we're a manufacturer and a distributor at the same time. We have lots of different faces which presents some really cool challenges from the standpoint of being in a digital transformation or Ecommerce role. Stephanie: Okay cool. So how long have you been at the company for? Jeff: My story is interesting, actually I'm co founder of a company called My Binding about 17 years ago. Last year we sold to Spiral. I've been with Spiral for just over a year now in this sort of digital transformation role but with My Binding, which was more of a pure play Ecommerce space. We grew and we were the largest sort of binding Ecommerce player in the market. Then all of a sudden we joined forces essentially with Spiral, which was the largest sort of B2B player in the market. Now we're one force together going after the binding and laminating market. Stephanie: Oh, interesting. What was that process like where you had your own company, you guys were selling online and then joining a company that maybe wasn't doing as much of that. What was that process like when it came to incorporating your company into an existing older company? Jeff: There's definitely some upsides. Suddenly you have increased purchasing power, you have more access to talent and capital. Those were amazing things, but the integration side of things is tough. Jeff: I mean, you're trying to merge systems and figure out how everything works together and learn the language of a new company. Some of that stuff is not as easy as it should be, as well as trying to figure out where exactly are they on the landscape of digital transformation and how do you navigate that when... We were pretty much an Ecommerce or digital first organization. That wasn't really their background. Now we're figuring out how do we be both? That's a pretty big challenge actually. Stephanie: Yeah. That sounds really difficult. What does the customer journey look like for Spiral or what did it look like compared to My Binding? Jeff: I guess the best way to think about it would be that in a B2B, B2C sort of Ecommerce experience, we were really building our business around a large number of transactions with a large number of customers, essentially small transactions to a large number of customers. On the more traditional B2B model, the traditional side of the Spiral business would have been around a small number of transactions to really big customers. Which is pretty typical when you look at this idea of traditional B2B and more like an Ecommerce B2B sort of experience. At least a B2B, to C sort of experience. Jeff: That was the really interesting thing is that we were dealing with customers from all over the country that in almost every industry that you can imagine, but most of them were rather small and we are filling specific needs for those customers. That was fine. On the spiral side you were looking and saying, hey, they had deep relationships. Relationships that went back decades, in many cases, with organizations where they were the supplier of choice. They had complex contracts and all those kinds of things. That was never really part of the Ecommerce world. Trying to figure out how do you merge those two together to get the best of both. It's not easy, but it's really fun actually. Stephanie: Yeah. I can imagine it takes a lot of training for their existing customers who are used to those contracts and used to things being done a certain way. How are you maybe going about training the customers who are used to doing things the old way to be like, Hey, we actually can do this online usually. Jeff: Slowly. Stephanie: Any lessons there that someone can take away if they're going through the same thing right now within their org? Jeff: You don't have to do it all at once. Our approach is really to allow customers to interact with us the way they want to interact with us by giving them better options. Really the priorities for this past year have been to try to integrate systems and then upgrade our footprint so that we can allow the company to put its best foot forward. Really starting with the E-comm side and getting everybody on the same platform and then tied into the same systems. Jeff: Now we're actually probably just a couple of months away from launching our brand new B2B E-com experience for the traditional spiral customers. Essentially we have been allowing them to continue to exist and deal with the company in the way that they used to while improving the experience and then bringing the platform up for the entire organization. One of the things about especially B2B commerce is that it gets really complicated as you tie in lots and lots of systems and a lot of interesting rules. Jeff: Customers want to deal with you in the way that they want to deal with you. What we've found is that we have to build specific experiences for our different customer types. That's the approach that we've been taking. I think that's a good approach from the standpoint of, you're not trying to force everybody into the same sort of experience because not everybody wants to deal with it in the same way. As a large organization that sort of deals with these sort of different challenges, we have to answer questions, like, do you display pricing on the front end of your website or is it a login only experience? Jeff: What pricing do you show people or what price pricing do people get and how do you control that and how do you manage that and how do you make sure that that experience is personalized for individuals? Then there's the age old question, which is really challenging in an organization that has multi channels and that is, how do you deal with the channel conflict? Whose customer is that? I guess it depends on who you would ask because everybody thinks that the customer is theirs. Yet ultimately the customer needs to deal with the organization in a way that the customer feels the most comfortable, not in the way that the organization feels most comfortable. Stephanie: Yeah. That makes sense. What kind of legacy or what things did the legacy customers get hung up on the most when you guys are making this transition and trying to show them that a new platform's coming? Is there similar themes of things that they're like, oh, I don't feel comfortable with that, or, I don't want to move because of this? Jeff: I think when it comes to customers, most customers want technology. I mean, they become comfortable. I think that they don't want to lose functionality. That's been probably one of the hardest things is that even if that functionality wasn't the best, they become comfortable with it and they don't really want to lose that. Yes they do want a best in class experience. One of the hard things that we all have to deal with in Ecommerce right now is that the bar has been raised. Jeff: There are people who want more and more features in terms of their online shopping experience. What you find is that you need to be able to roll these things out, but you need to make sure that it doesn't make things harder on those customers, especially long time corporate customers. They are really dependent on these things working smoothly and easily. That's actually one of the hardest challenges in this process has been, okay, well, we've done a lot of cool things for customers over the years. One off, you build a feature on the website just for that one customer. Jeff: Well, trying to then redo that and not lose a substantial amount of functionality for specific customers, especially large customers that you have these really deep relationships with, that's pretty tough. Stephanie: I was actually going to ask that next, when you mentioned that you were personalizing the experience for certain customers to make them feel more comfortable or hearing what they want and trying to incorporate that into the platform, how do you go about picking out what things you should maybe personalize or give to the customer without going down a worm hole of having a personal experience for every customer? Jeff: Ultimately, we're taking an approach of first saying, what's the best in class experience that we could build. What are the things that are going to be the best for all of the customers and then looking and saying, "Hey, can we in our roadmap put in the flexibility to accommodate for these many things that customers have asked for?" Jeff: How could we build this in such a way that we can add that on or this on? I'm not sure that we always nail it just from the standpoint of... It's pretty tough to keep everybody happy. But we're taking the approach of, hey, we can make it substantially better for everybody. It may not be perfect, but it should be a dramatic enough improvement that they'll recognize that we have their best interest in mind. Stephanie: It seems like some of those requests might also fit other customers as well or it might be something where they're like, oh, I actually wanted that and never thought to ask. It could be helpful when it comes to product development on your side, like technology development. Jeff: Yeah, totally. We had a really good team that we used to build out stuff and we're able to iterate fairly quickly. That's the good news because sometimes we miss something and so... But as long as you can respond fairly quickly to a customer's need, it gives you an opportunity to serve them better and to communicate. But the other really important part of this is really getting the account managers and your sales people involved in this process so you get some really good feedback because one of the challenges that we face at least is that sometimes as the E-com department and on the technology side, you don't always get raw feedback. Jeff: Maybe the stuff you're hearing is from the people who are yelling the loudest, not necessarily from the people who are trying to help you. You're not necessarily hearing about the features that are going to make the biggest difference for most number of users. Stephanie: That makes sense. With this whole re-platforming and new tech stack that you're going to be launching what pieces of tech are you most excited about showing to the customer or bringing online that maybe wasn't there before? Jeff: For us it's really about an enhanced user experience. We kind of been a little bit on the old school side on the traditional B2B piece of it. This gives us the ability to provide a really much better experience end to end in terms of transacting with us. Some of the things that we're aiming for, that are harder than I was thinking they would be, would be real time freight quoting. When you're a B2B company and you've got a distribution network across the country, and you're trying to figure out how much that pallet is going to cost to go to this customer. You think, hey that should be super easy. That's like in the Ecommerce world, until you start to realize, well, it's really important that you get that right. You have to first know where all that's going to ship from. Jeff: One of the biggest things is a really deep integration with our ERP so we can understand where the inventory resides and then how much it weighs and the sizes and all those kinds of things so that we can do that on the fly. Because right now we do an add back type thing. We'll tell you what the freight is later. Customers don't like that. Especially not in the Ecommerce world. Getting that upfront, same with sales tax calculation. Right now, a lot of that's done on the backend and people want to know upfront. That means building a system that has management for resale certificates and all of those pieces. Jeff: I need to understand where are you exempted, where you not exempted and what are you exempt from and all of those kinds of things so that I can quote you and tell you what the sales tax is going to be upfront before you place your order. That's another piece of it that we're excited about. Requisition list is another one where people will have their own custom price list in the system where they can quickly order. We're building a system where they can upload an Excel file with all of their items that they want so they can do quick ordering and quick reordering. Jeff: I guess those would be a few of the systems. Like a quote management system to allow people to request pricing on items and then for us to respond to them live and track that inside of our system is another one that we're building. Those are all areas where we're saying, hey, this could really enhance the user's journey and make it a lot easier for them to do business with us. Stephanie: That's great. Yeah that sounds like some great changes. Have you had any customers trying out the platform as beta testers and have you seen any difference when it comes to average order value or anything? Jeff: We're not quite there yet. We finished design and we're in the midst of development at the moment. I would say that that's going to be one of those steps prior to launch. Will be first to have sort of sales associates and account managers jump into the platform and test it for themselves and then to really get especially key customers in the system testing, and then also giving us feedback. What do they love? What did they not like and how can we make it better for them? That's on the roadmap before launch to be able to say, "Hey is this better for you?" It's funny because on a traditional B2C Ecommerce launch, you'd be focusing so much on the front end. Jeff: Like, the My Account pages are taking just as much time for this site because that's where our customers are living. They want to use the search, but they really want to use the my account pages. They know what they want, and they need to be able to quickly reorder it. They need to be able to see their orders. They need to be able to have the ability to upload those requisition lists. It's a little bit of a twist but getting them, especially into those my account pages so that they can spend some serious time understanding their accounts and telling us what they like or what they don't like is going to be really important for the launch process. Stephanie: Yeah. That's really interesting about focusing on my account page and how much time they're spending there. I'm sure that things like product suggestions or also bots might be very important on that page to help showcase items that maybe they wouldn't otherwise buy when they're just quickly uploading something or just reordering. Are you guys experimenting with some of the suggestion features? Jeff: Most definitely. Yeah. That's part of the vision is to try to figure out and say, okay, we have these deep relationships with customers and they buy specific sets of products. How can we expand to purchasing a product set? How do we get them and introduce them to complimentary products and show them the right pricing and the right place so that they can say, "Hey, I should totally add that on." That's something that I should consider. It's an interesting challenge for us because we have different personas or groups of people that we're dealing with. Jeff: On one hand we're dealing with dealers and they're really reselling product. You're trying to show them maybe categories of product, where do they need to expand because they're buying for specific purposes. Then you have end users and those end users you might want to show them a different size or a different color. We're experimenting with what the best algorithm is that we can use to show them the right products and then also in the right places too. Stephanie: That's great. What tests are you most excited about that you're pitching to everyone right now and some people maybe aren't sure about? Jeff: I'm actually most excited right now about the lead gen side of our business. Stephanie: Tell me more about that. Jeff: When you start to think about what the power of Ecommerce is for a B2B organization. Ecommerce can really become the engine that powers the acquisition efforts of a company. Especially because we can get in front of hundreds of thousands of customers a month, whereas the traditional B2B sales force might only touch hundreds of customers per month. Maybe thousands, but definitely not hundreds of thousands. Jeff: The idea of... What does it take for us to build a really cool robust system to not only bring these leads in but then to try to figure out how do I score these leads and then not only take them and turn them into an immediate sale, but to determine which ones of these really can be turned into those more traditional B2B accounts that we have these deep relationships with that are going to buy from us for years to come, many tens of thousands of dollars, right? Jeff: The really exciting part to me is looking at it and saying, okay we are on the Ecommerce side, on the B2B2C Ecommerce piece of it. We almost have too many leads. We get so much traffic that comes in. So then how do you figure out, take all those leads and build a really robust system where you can make sure that they're getting exactly what they need, and you're closing as many sales as you can, but then how do you figure out a way to pass those accounts up, the right accounts to the right people so that you can build them into a much larger long term sustainable program. Jeff: For us, that means building a really cool inbound sales team that makes sure that we take care of those leads and that we foster them and do all the things that we need to do, but then building an outbound sales team as well that's going to go in and then say, "Hey, let's take these leads and take them to the next level." Then also figuring out a system for passing accounts up and down inside of the organization. You really want to be able to pass a lead up or a customer up that has substantial potential to be either a national account or what we'll call an enterprise level account. Jeff: But you also want the reciprocity of getting those accounts back or the smaller accounts back from the team. I will say that no one wants to give up that account. That's a big challenge inside of an organization when you're trying to say, "Hey, I'll give you some, you give me some." The way usually ends up being is someone... Everyone wants to receive, no one wants to give. But the system only really works if you can give the best to the... But then also that you can receive quality back. For instance, handing back to the E-com team, only the accounts that don't do any business, isn't really a win. Jeff: You really want your enterprise salespeople focused on enterprise level accounts. We're having to sort of wrestle through what does that look like in terms of structure. I don't know that we really have it all figured out yet, but it's a cool idea. Stephanie: I'm guessing there's a way to automate that and create rules. So it, like you said, can go up or down depending on certain criteria from when they're coming in. How are you all thinking about automating that process? So it's maybe less of a salespeople having to give and take and whatnot, and more like, Oh, this is automatically routed to you based on these metrics. Jeff: That's exactly what we're doing. We're exploring machine learning and big data to try to figure out a really good way of scoring customers because using that scoring, you can figure out how to pass customers up. Then a set of rules as well that says if these customers aren't of a certain size or if they have this kind of profile, they really belong in this group. But it's an interesting challenge from trying to figure out where do you get all this data from, and then how do you process it? We're exploring different options right now in terms of what that might look like and how we can best approach that without spending a ton of money before we bet that it actually works. Stephanie: Yeah. That's really cool. So outside of the prospect giving that information, what kind of things are you looking into right now to find the information to help with that scoring process? Jeff: It's actually challenging. You have certain pieces of information that are given to you which you have usually a name and an address. Their email address usually has a domain associated with it, especially in B2B. So you can pull a lot of information from that and you can start to sort your domain, your customers by domain. But really we're looking and saying, okay, well we do know the purchase history. The idea then is, okay, if you were to sort all your customers out, you can sort them on a scale of, let's say a one, two, three. You can say my best customers spend the most money with me. My worst customers spend the least amount of money with me, but that really misses part of the point. Jeff: You almost need to add a second access to this, which is really about customer potential. When it comes to customer potential, we're looking at the idea of what would it take for us to add some big data to this? To understand the size of their company and the profile of the company that they come from, or the industry that they come from as well, because the industry can be really important to us. But then the other side of it is also looking at what they purchased. Like for instance, people who purchase specific equipment or supplies, they're going to have a much higher lifetime value with us because those are proprietary or have maybe a really good pull through rate. Jeff: For instance, it may not be that it's a proprietary supply, but when you buy that machine, you have to go through a lot of supplies to make it worthwhile. You look at the data and you say, okay, that customer has a huge amount of potential. Not because of the amount that they bought from us, but because of what they bought or who they are, the company that they work for or their position. We're looking at the possibility of maybe even extending that into some of the databases out there that help you understand whether people are in market and what their roles are as well. Jeff: Because when you're dealing with B2B, you're not really selling all the time to the company, you're selling to a person inside of the company and that person has a role. You have to figure out, okay, well what role do they play in this picture? That helps us to sort them into personas. If you're dealing with a really small number of accounts, you can figure this out, but we have to automate it because it's not really feasible to do that in a one off basis. Stephanie: Yeah, definitely seems like you're going to need a whole entire data or business operations team who can build those rules out for you and have dashboards. That seems like a big project, but well worth it. Earlier, you mentioned that you guys have more traffic than you know what to do with and lots of leads coming in. Of course my first question is how are you getting this traffic? How are you acquiring potential customers? Jeff: Sure. I mean... We're in a niche industry, right? So that's part of it. We've been around for a really long time. Because of that, at least... Spiral has been around 80 years, My Binding for almost 20 on the web. As you start to look at that, we created a massive amount of content. Thousands of videos and pages. We really have in a lot of ways, the best websites in our sort of space and industry. Because of that, people are finding us to solve problems. What you find is that we built out these websites and either through SEO or through paid search we're driving a ton of traffic to the websites because they convert and that makes a ton of sense. Jeff: We're essentially... We have all of this content and it's really designed around this idea of how do we solve these problems for customers? We can drive more and more of that content. The website deals with a certain number of those sort of leads and converts on its own. The challenge for us tends to be, what do you do with the people that are maybe a little higher in the funnel? You're now talking about making sure they have a really awesome call center that is going to be able to answer those questions. Live chat is really big. We've extended our live chat hours all the way to midnight which is unheard of in the B2B space. Jeff: I want somebody there to talk to somebody if they have questions about products. Especially really big products. We're experimenting with the idea of doing triggers for live chat. We did that and that was really successful for us. We turned on the trigger and said, with the idea of if I walk into a store, somebody says, "Hey, how can I help you?" We did that on the Ecommerce site and we had massive numbers of people that were engaging with us. But the surprise to us was that many of those people were actually much higher in the funnel than we were used to dealing with. Jeff: In other words, they were now engaging with us and they weren't ready to buy. They were in the research space and they had lots of questions. Which is really cool but it just changes the model a little bit and you all of a sudden have to figure out how do I step up for that? How do I make sure that I have the right person to answer those questions? That's part of it. Driving the leads really comes to how do you acquire traffic on scale? Really good high quality traffic for the site. Then the question is, well, what can you do with it? Driving the traffic is really exciting from a standpoint of it doesn't have to be done in one way but you have to be maybe a little bit creative to do it because you really are trying to get in front of people that have problems rather than... Jeff: At least in our space, you don't come to a binding website unless you have a problem that the binding website can solve. It's not exactly an impulse purchase. You're going to show up and you're not going to just browse around. I wonder what kind of binding machines they carry. You probably are on a mission to solve some sort of problem. Right. Whether that's like your bosses told you that you need to buy a binding machine or you need to upgrade the way that your reports or presentations are going to look, or you have a deadline of Friday and you need to get these reports out for the annual meeting. Jeff: These are all sort of really common sort of scenarios and so then the question is, will this product work for my specific needs? That's a question that our customers are constantly asking. Building to that has been a really great sort of acquisition model for us to build around the idea that every customer that comes to us comes to us with a problem that we can solve for them, and then figuring out how do you work backwards to that? What problems could we solve? Then as you start to get creative with that and build massive amounts of content, that content lives out there forever. That's been really a big part of our success, is really the longevity but also the content generation sort of machine that we've built over the years. Stephanie: How has your content... What is the style now today? Is it only educational? Is it humorous and how has it evolved over time? Jeff: We've tried a lot of things over the years. We've tried to be funny. I think we think we're funny sometimes. We've tried a bunch of different things. We've tried to be really educational. It was really hard to figure out the ROI of that. What we've really... If you were to look at our content, we do a lot of content that is really close to the bottom of the funnel, but that would be really helpful. We go with that sort of helpful thing as well as deep. So the idea of building out a really robust and large set of content over the years about products. Jeff: We spend a lot of time making sure that we have all of the details about the product, even to the point where our competitors come to our sites to look up products because they don't have as good of information as we do. That's one piece of the content side of things for us. We have a lot of how to videos. We did a bunch of experimenting around the videos. We found that the videos that people really cared about would basically answer a couple of quick questions. But mostly it was, will this product work for me? How does this thing work? Jeff: We made a whole series of those videos, almost five thousand of them that are really around the idea of how does this product work and a quick demonstration essentially. Usually around a minute long that takes the product out of the box, show someone how to use it. Those really work well for us because they show a customer generally what are they looking for. A lot of customers they want to see what it looks like or they have a machine already and they want to say, "Is that's the thing that works with my machine.? They don't understand our language. Those videos have worked really well for us as well. Stephanie: That's great. Are there any surprising pieces of content that you didn't think would work that did, or surprising sources of customer acquisition that you wouldn't have looked into before? Jeff: We've had a few blog articles that have found traction in the world and the web that I wasn't really anticipating. We've written a lot of content over the years. Most of the blog articles get a little bit of traffic. They're like evergreen content, little bit of traffic over a long period of time. But occasionally we'll end up with one like... Something about how to laminate without a laminator. Stephanie: That's a good one. Jeff: Amazingly, there's a lot of people that look up that and I was shocked. It consistently drives more traffic than almost any other blog article for us. Which is odd. I'm not sure it drives a ton of business because they don't want to buy a laminator, but if you think about it, there's a whole segment of people that have maybe problems that we don't traditionally associate with our business. That would be one thing and then the other piece would be the language piece. Jeff: It's always surprising when I discover that the language that we use internally for our business doesn't match the language of the customer. An example would be we talk about binding covers all the time because we're in the world of binding. A lot of people they just talk about card stock. In the paper world, the card stock doesn't even exist. It's not a thing. People will talk about it. It's cover weight paper. Index weight paper. Card stock is like this sort of crafting term. Yet it's sort of taken on a vocabulary of its own in the world. Jeff: When people search for binding covers, often they'll use that word. That's always surprising to me as well. There's a whole list of those things where people basically they choose to use their own words to describe things. Now you're trying to figure out how do I technically be accurate about this product but really use their language? Because if you don't use their language, then you're not going to show up in search for this stuff and they're not going to feel comfortable with it. Stephanie: That's a really good reminder, especially with generational shifts that the new consumer might be using completely different language than what you're used to. How are you exploring what that language might be? I mean, especially a company that has been around since the thirties, how are they figuring out, oh, this is what they call it now, this is what the kids are saying these days? Jeff: Probably the easiest thing for us is to look through our search results and especially the no results found once because often it's those things. When people are typing in stuff in the search bar and nothing's popping up. You look at that and you're like oh... A smart merchandiser, someone who understands your products really well, they start to make those connections and they're like, oh, wait a second. That's what they mean. Obviously a lot of that like spelling mistakes and things like that. You can fix those in your search engine but when you start to look at it, you start to see sometimes patterns. That's one of the easiest ones. Jeff: The other two that are really helpful for us would be Google autosuggest. Just start typing things in Google and then figure out what Google thinks that you should add to the end of it. All of a sudden you realize, okay, maybe people are searching for maybe a slightly different side of things than we thought they were. Then the other one would be Amazon. Amazon, their product terms are awful. Yet they sell so much. Why? Because they tie into language. They have usually products that have all these different words in the titles that you would never imagine. Jeff: As you start to look at products that are really successful on the marketplaces, you can start to realize, okay, well maybe they're onto something there. They've managed to call out even the most important attributes of that product in a very search centric sort of model or they have really been able to hone in on maybe key words that we weren't thinking of when we've been building this out. Especially because often you start with whatever... A point of reference would be the manufacturer's title. It becomes quite difficult sometimes to sort of detach from that, but Amazon detaches automatically because they let people come up with their own titles for stuff. Jeff: Usually it's the sort of ecosystem that will change the title to try to optimize. Sometimes when you find really successful products that you're realizing, Oh, maybe people do care about that. Stephanie: I love that. That's really good tips to remember about, finding those keywords and how to discover them because yeah, I think even longterm key words would probably be really good for your industry. I'm thinking, how would I Google something like that? I would probably be like how to create a hard cover book for my presentation or something really long winded like that. It's a really good reminder about the keywords importance. Jeff: Then obviously you have your paid search stuff too. You can look and see in your paid search accounts, you can say, okay, what keywords are actually driving? If it was a broad or a modified broad match keyword, you're going to start to dig in and you can say, oh, it actually matched on this keyword and it drove a sale. Again, driving back and saying, okay, what am I driving sales on? It tends to be a really good place to start discovery as well. The only thing, the problem with that is that you might be so far off that you're missing the boat completely. That's where it takes a really good merchandisers to sort of nail that stuff down. Stephanie: I also think it was interesting earlier when you were talking about how to laminate without a laminator and thinking about selling something through saying, oh yeah, you don't need to buy through us. Here's how you do it because I'm sure a lot of people, like you said, are searching for stuff like that or how to fax without a fax machine. I know I've searched that quite a bit, but making fun of it and you might actually be able to convert someone who's like, Oh, I actually just do need a laminator to do this, but having a humorous video around that. Jeff: Yeah. As well as maybe they decide that they want to buy some cold laminating pouches. The idea is, if you can be really helpful in the long term, going back to that idea of video. We've done a lot of videos over the years. We understand that many, many, many times people use our videos post-purchase not pre-purchase. People are going to the video to figure out how does this thing that I already bought work. Well, that doesn't really help us but it does help us in the long term. Jeff: As you look at it and say, it's not going to win us the sale today, but it will win us brand awareness. It does potentially when you do supply sales. Because we're a very supply driven sort of space. If you think about it, if you buy a binding machine, you got to buy some supplies for it. Longterm, we want to have an awareness and be in front of customers so they understand who we are when it comes time to buy the supplies that they need. Stephanie: Just like you said, it's really important to continue to stay in front of that customer so they come to you to buy supplies and remember you guys. How do you go about doing that and keeping a customer retained? Because it seems like it would be easier with these legacy customers who are maybe in these year or three year long contracts. Now when you're moving towards Ecommerce and they can hop around really quickly, it seems like you wouldn't be able to retain customers as easily. So how do you go about staying in front of them? Jeff: I mean, there's a lot to that, the question. To give you maybe a general overview of our thoughts is a big part of our business and something that's really important to us. Especially on the E-com side of things, it really starts with delivering a really awesome experience upfront. So you need to be able to help them find what they need and then deliver it to them in a really reasonable timeframe or meet their deadline. All that kind of stuff. To have the product in stock and all of those kinds of pieces. That's actually harder said than done when you deal with a really large niche category. Jeff: That's the beginning piece of it. Once you've given them that positive experience, or if they've had a negative experience, you use your customer service to basically earn a customer for life. That's actually the motto of our customer service group. Earn a customer for life. As you look at this idea, you say, okay, well, we now have a shot at their business longterm. Now the challenge for us is, okay, what's the best way to reach them? The easiest way is email. We have a ton of automation in our emails. We send emails based upon what you've purchased with replenishment. We send life cycle campaigns based upon... Welcome to the store anniversaries campaigns, and then also best customer campaigns, win back campaigns and reactivation campaigns. Jeff: We have all these automations that go out. They're really helpful. We also have sales that go out on a weekly basis that keep people engaged and keep things front of mind for them. You combine all of that on the email side, but then you recognize that that maybe only gets you half the customers. The question becomes... Because there's a bunch that are opted out in the B2B space, it's really hard on deliverability to get into the inbox. More and more people are using advanced filtering programs to prevent spam from getting through to their employees. Jeff: As you look at that, you say, okay, well, email only takes you so far. So then what do you do? The real question is, back to that conversation we had earlier about lead scoring, how do you determine your best customers or your best potential customers and make sure that you get somebody to call them? To send them a personal email which are easier to get into their inbox or to find another way of touching them. For us right now, the two other ways of touching them that we're sort of exploring, one would be SMS and then another would be direct mail. We're kind of in the process of exploring a test on SMS. Jeff: I'm not too sure how we feel about it, honestly. We have to figure out how our customers feel about it, just from the standpoint of as you look at customers giving their personal cell phones for business purchases and getting text messages. But you think about it, that's a great way to get in front of people and stay in front of them as long as you're going to be super, highly relevant. Then the other piece of it that we do a little bit of would be on that retargeting side of things. If you don't know who that customer is exactly, or don't have their ability to email them, you can at least sort of [inaudible] do it, make sure you're sending or placing ads more frequently into their feeds on different platforms through retargeting. Stephanie: That makes sense. It seems from, especially in SMS perspective, it seems like the only angle you can go about is being helpful. Like oh, you probably are running out of supplies, order now. I don't know, you can get a discount or something. It seems like there's not too many ways for B2B companies to use texting without the customer being like, "Oh, I don't want to be thinking about work right now." Unless it's a trigger for them to be like, "Oh, I need to reorder this or else we're not going to have it on the day." Is that true or are you seeing other avenues? Jeff: Well, the first step would be to be helpful with order cycle. For instance, think about what Amazon has done with allowing you to get a text when the item is delivered. Which is a big problem for a bunch of our customers, especially in pandemic, but even outside of that. It might be delivered to a central desk or to the shipping and receiving area of their company like an alert. Alerts are a pretty good option for us to sort of get our toe in the water a little bit and to stay active. Then yes, something that's personalized. Jeff: Then also, what we're struggling with is what is the best time of day to do this? Probably don't want to send it to them in the middle of their evening. They're disconnected from work, but you also need to make sure that... It's got to be time adjusted for the time that they're in and they also really needs to be followed in their workday probably. Those are some of the things that we're sort of figuring out and testing right now and saying how is this going? Then what's also the most appropriate way to collect where people don't sort of get freaked out. Because it's one of those things, do you want to get text messages from your binding company? I don't know. You got to ask it in an appropriate way. Stephanie: Yeah. That's a really good reminder. All right. We have a couple minutes left and I want to jump into a quick lightning round brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Jeff, are you ready? Jeff: Okay. I'm ready. Stephanie: I'm going to start with the hard one first for you because I feel like you're in a game right now. I got to keep it going. What one thing will have the biggest impact on Ecommerce in the next year? Jeff: Well, I think obviously it's COVID. It's pushing people online in completely new ways. It's shifting customer expectations around a whole bunch of different things. It's ruined the Amazon two day expectation, which I don't mind, but it's also shifted the way that people shop, where they're shopping, how they're shopping, and even their mentality. I don't know that we even really totally understand how it's affected everybody yet because everybody's still sort of in this scrambling mode. But ultimately I think as this shakes out, it's going to change the landscape of how we market, but it's also going to change the landscape of how our customers interact with us. Stephanie: I like that. What one piece of advice would you give a new Ecommerce entrepreneur? Jeff: I would probably say stick with solving the customer's problems. I know that tends to be a B2B thing, but it's not really a B2B thing. If you think about it, I need the right sweater for me. Really be customer centric. That becomes really cliche and that's why I go to the idea of solving a problem. You got to think about what sort of value proposition are you offering to this customer that's unique, that is going to allow them to accomplish something that they wanted to accomplish when they came to your site. Jeff: I think by focusing and being really focused on the customer problem, I think you can build out really awesome experiences, and then that deep understanding of your customer will take you really far. Stephanie: That's a good one. What is your favorite day in the office? I'm trying to imagine what a binding company feels like. What's your favorite day in the office feel like? Jeff: I mean, most of my days are pretty full of meetings. A day without meetings would be an awesome day in the office. Stephanie: That's a lot of people. Jeff: I think so. In the world of the binding company, a day in the office doesn't look all that much different than a day in a normal office. It might be a little bit like an episode of the office. Stephanie: That's what I had in my mind honestly. Jeff: Yeah. It's like paper company. There is a little bit of aspects of that, but I mean, we're just like any other company. We're a retailer, we're a distributor. We deal with customers all day long. I would say the other thing, the best day in the office is the day that you have customers that love you and that are just heaping praises, especially on the customer service people and your salespeople. When you have customers who are just singing your praises, those are great days. Stephanie: Yep. That's awesome. I'm glad you mentioned the office and I didn't have to. If you were to have a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be? Jeff: That's a tough one. If I were to have a podcast. I am super passionate about entrepreneurship. I'd probably do an entrepreneurship sort of a podcast about starting a business, growing a business, and the creativity that goes around that. If I could get anybody on the show, I would probably pick an entrepreneur. Maybe I pick the person from lemonade stand or one of those organizations that's really making a big impact on starting up entrepreneurs with kids. That's something that I really love. Stephanie: Yep. I like that. Brings back the memories of my parents make me [inaudible] my neighbor's yard for 25 cents which is well below market. Jeff: I think you could make at least 50 cents for that now. Stephanie: I think so too. All right Jeff, this was very interesting, such a good conversation. So many good tid bits that people can actually use from this interview. Where can people find out more about you and Spiral? Jeff: Sure. You can definitely visit one of our websites. We've got SpiralBinding.com. We have MyBinding.com and Binding101.com. You can find me on LinkedIn as well. Shoot me a message and ask me to connect and I'd love to meet you. Stephanie: Awesome. Thanks so much for joining Jeff. Jeff: You're welcome. Thank you.

Jeff talks about going to the reading and Q&A for Frederick Smith and Chaz Lamar's In Case You Forgot. The guys also talk about their recent trip to see the musical The Drowsy Chaperone starring Bruce Vilanch. It's a Heidi Cullinan double feature this week as Will reviews Nowhere Ranch and Jeff reviews The Doctor's Secret. Jeff talks with Jacqui Greig, the creator and editor of Blush magazine. Jacqui talks about why she created the magazine and what sparked her love of all things romance. We also find out about the books that she writes and how she encourages anyone who is interested to start an online magazine. Complete shownotes for episode 197 along with a transcript of the interview are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Interview Transcript – Jacqui Greig This transcript was made possible by our community on Patreon. You can get information on how to join them at patreon.com/biggayfictionpodcast. Jeff: Thanks for coming to the podcast Jacqui it is so great to have you here. Jacqui: My absolute pleasure. Jeff: So Will and I have loved “Blush” since the first issue came out and. Jacqui: Thank you. Jeff: I love what one of the things on the website that talks about you where it says “I may or may not have started this publication and in order to fangirl my favorite authors without getting slapped with a restraining order.” Jacqui: Pretty much. Jeff: Which sounds so awesome. It’s like a mission statement. Jacqui: But it’s so true. I used to finish reading a book and then I just I loved it so much that I wanted to be best friends with the author. I wanted to know everything about them. I just you know wanted to delve into their heads I guess. And that’s kind of what “Blush” lets me do. Yeah without getting hit with a restraining order. Jeff: We feel the same way about the podcast it’s so great to just dive in with these folks. Jacqui: Yeah absolutely. Jeff: Tell us a little bit for our listeners who may not have discovered blush yet. What is the magazine kind of all about besides obviously of course romance books? Jacqui: So essentially, it’s an online magazine for romance readers. So I just wanted something that was specific for people who read romance and there’s already so many amazing blogs and podcasts that I just thought a magazine would be a fun way of getting that information across. And yeah. So it’s kind of interviewing authors, looking at the different books that are coming out at the moment, the different trends in the industry. I’m calling it an online digital platform. There’s even things like I imagine what a particular heroine in a book would wear. And I based a fashion page on that. So it’s just kind of interpreting the romance genre in different ways. Jeff: It really is because you go so much further than a Book Review blog or like what we do on the podcast because you do have, as you mentioned, the fashion thing or I believe in June it was the ‘book crush’ with Jamie Frazier which everybody can have that crush, right? Jacqui: Right? Jeff: There are elements of reviews that work their way in, but then you do some dives on the industry too, or talking about tropes and such. Jacqui: Yeah. I think that’s probably my background in journalism as well. I used to work on magazine in Sydney. I worked in a travel magazine and on a hair magazine of all things. And then I started my own magazine, a women’s lifestyle magazine, which was print – that was more than 10 years ago now. So the industry has evolved so much since then and it’s so much easier to do a digital magazine than it is a print magazine. Yes. So I just thought I’d give it a go. Jeff: How do you decide what goes in to each issue. Because there’s so many things to pick from. Jacqui: I know there’s so many things to pick from and it’s actually been a little – it’s getting easier every month because the magazine is getting more widely known and people are actually messaging me, emailing me, then giving me content ideas, which is fantastic, but it’s just whatever I like. Yeah. I don’t know. Whatever I’ve been reading or what I’ve seen or I am quite big on Instagram I get a lot of inspiration there. Jeff: Yeah. And I enjoy watching your Instagram just because it’s so creative. Jacqui: I’m a graphic designer as well so I see lots of cheeky quotes and things like that and I just redesigned them for my own purposes which is fun. Jeff: Your July issue will have been out a short time by the time this episode airs. What can readers find in July? Jacqui: So I’m super excited. In July I have three authors that I definitely fangirl over. So I’ve got Eve Dangerfield. I’ve got an interview with her. I have an interview with Sarah MacLean and an interview with Abbi Glines. Jeff: Wow. Three of them are all in the same issue. Jacqui: Yeah, well in my very first issue I had Beverly Jenkins and Kylie Scott and I thought, “Right, I’m happy to finish this right now. I’ve reached my peak.” That was epic for me. I think romance authors are so generous with their time and knowledge and it’s just such a beautiful, interesting industry to be in. Jeff: Yeah, it really is because there’s so many warm people who are just happy to tell their story and tell everybody about their books. What are the regular sections that readers look for each month? Jacqui: So I generally start with a ‘Lust-Haves’, which is just kind of products/bookish things that basically I would like to be spending my money on. I think in one issue I had a pair of cashmere socks that were like one hundred and ten dollars and I had a girlfriend calling me, she said, “You didn’t buy those, did you?” I didn’t. I’d like to. So yeah, we did ‘Lust-Haves’, we do an IG profile. I pick an Instagram account that’s really inspiring and has gorgeous images and profile them. We’ve got our author interviews. I generally have a couple of features. So for example, in the current issue we did one on the rise of rural romance. So it’s basically Australian authors writing romance set in rural settings… on farms which is really lovely. I live in a small country town myself, so I can really identify with that. We do a ‘Book Crush’ every issue. So that’s just a hero that we’ve got a bit of a crush on at the time and it’s really fun to contact the author and find out what they had in mind when they were writing that character. I get them to share their Pinterest pages with inspiration that they drew when writing, which I love. And there’s a bookshelf at the back, which features a lot of books, and it’s a really great showcase for indie authors I think. So yeah, that’s kind of it. Jeff: You say that’s kind of it, but that’s a lot. I mean, there’s a lot of stuff that goes into these issues. What kind of overall timing and process goes into creating a single issue? Jacqui: Well, having done in my previous life the print lifestyle magazine that was a whole circus. So I had staff and we had an office and because that I was spending forty thousand dollars an issue just to print it. So it was big. Right. So because [Blush] is digital – it’s online – my overheads are tiny, it’s literally me sitting at my kitchen table and, I have I don’t have it here, but I literally designed up on an A3 bit of paper for weeks and split it into the days and split the jobs across it and I laminated it so that I can write over the top of it – every issue. And it’s actually not too involved I think because I know what I’m doing. And I love what I’m doing. And I think as a working mother you become… I just have to get shit done. Like I just, I’ve got no windows in between kids being at school or ballet lessons or you know all of that kind of jazz. I just have to really, really be productive with my time and bang it out. Jeff: And I think the online magazine in a lot of ways gives you a much broader design to work with than if you were locked in to any kind of website format. Jacqui: Yeah, I think it’s fun because you can flip through the pages. It kind of it feels interactive and you can, you know, I can put gifs onto the pages so there’s movement, there’s different animations that you can use. And it’s just readers really like the tactile experience of a physical magazine. And because I can’t do that, I think a digital magazine – it is still something different from a blog post and not to say that, you know, there’s some fantastic blogs out there, but this is just a different format. Jeff: Yeah, it’s a different medium, but it’s going to be interesting, I think to see if other people move in that direction. I think we’re all so used to seeing blogs that this is another similar but different way to go. Jacqui: Yeah, it’s just a bit fun, little bit different. Jeff: July is also kind of a milestone for you because it’s six months old for the magazine – issue number six. What’s your favorite thing to write about so far in those six months? Jacqui: I think the interview with Beverly Jenkins, that was kind of amazing. She’s an icon in the industry and she’s so generous and I couldn’t believe that she’s giving me the time of the day, especially because I hadn’t published a magazine by that stage. I literally had nothing to show her. She just kind of said, “Yeah sure.” So that was really incredible. I do freelance digital marketing, which I’ve just stopped, and I’m focusing all my energy on ‘Blush’ because I really want to give it a go. I felt like I was building other people’s dreams, helping them build their dreams and I wasn’t really putting any time into my own. So yeah, I’m kind of all in with this. I got skin in the game now. Jeff: That’s awesome. It’s a good feeling. Jacqui: Yeah, it really is. And I do need to say my husband is super supportive and I’m very lucky. But yeah, like this is my gig now. Jeff: What’s surprised you over the six months. Jacqui: I don’t know if it was surprise. It was probably just reinforced how wide and how deep this romance genre is and how amazing it is. I mean, if Alexa Riley can beat Michelle Obama in the rankings on Amazon, that’s huge. Jeff: And you’re right about the romance genre being so big. I have found, so far, that you try to cover seemingly all of it. You’ve featured all kinds of romance including LGBTQ romance. Jacqui: Well, that’s a that’s a big sector and it’s valid and I know that, especially in the states, you’ve been having a lot of diversity talk at the moment – and so you should. ‘Blush’ is a vehicle for the romance industry and I want it to encompass all aspects of that. Jeff: And we talked a little bit before we started recording that it was ‘Blush’ that first put ‘Red, White & Royal Blue’ on our radar as the thing we needed to watch out for in the spring. Jacqui: Well, I’m sure you hadn’t seen it with me, you would have seen it very soon because it has been so well received and validly So like she’s amazing, Casey’s [McQuiston] she’s going places. Jeff: Yeah, absolutely. What got you into romance? Jacqui: So my parents owned a newsagent when I was younger. And romance novels were distributed by magazine companies, which meant that if they didn’t sell, it was cheaper to rip the cover off and throw it out than it was to send it back to the company. So I used to scavenge through the back bin and I just fell into it. I read to my heart’s content. The only problem was, that because it didn’t have a cover, I knew the title, but without that image on the top on the cover and the title, I can’t remember any of them. And probably I was reading so many of them, I was just kind of consuming them. But yes, so that’s how I got into it – scavenging. Jeff: That is awesome. What a great way to get books. Jacqui: I know right. I mean it’s so demoralizing and awful for an author to think about – that’s how some of your books may end up. I don’t know if that’s still the practice – I would hope not. But yeah, that’s back when I was 12 or 13. That’s how we did it. Jeff: On the other hand, I mean how terrific that it must be – Yes, they didn’t get paid for – but they inspired somebody to go out and create something like this later in life. Jacqui: Well that’s true. That’s a really nice way of looking at it. Oh, thank you. Jeff: You can’t remember some of the titles and authors obviously, but do you remember what tropes and what sort of elements of the story fueled your interest in the genre? Jacqui: I read a lot of the historicals, which I loved. But I kind of stopped reading for a while – going through high school and then university – and got back into it with Kylie Scott, who’s an Australian author who wrote a romance in a zombie apocalypse, which is very far removed from historical romance, but freaking awesome. She wrote two books and a novella and then found mainstream success with her Rockstar romances. But she kind of got me back into reading romance, her and Amy Andrews who is another Australian author. She’s got a ‘Sydney Smoke’ rugby series, which is a series of books set around a rugby team in Sydney and she just has the dialogue down pat, like she is so dynamic with her writing. Yeah, she is really, really incredible. I think those two got the ball rolling to get me back into it and now I don’t really have a favorite trope or a favorite genre. I will literally read anything you put in front of me. I will read it. Jeff: That’s awesome. I’m kind of the same way. Will has is his thing where he likes contemporary/low angst – may take a few diversions off that path… But if I like the blurb, I’m at least game to see where it goes. Jacqui: Exactly. Yep. I’m with you. Jeff: Now, since we are an LGBTQ romance podcast, what are some of your recent reads, kind of in that genre. Jacqui: So what I’ve really loved is that some of my favorite authors are diversifying. I guess they’re going into that queer space. So Kate Canterbury, she wrote The Walsh series – which I devoured I loved – and then it’s an offshoot. There’s a lobster fisherman who marries Aaron and Nick in book 6. And So the lobster fisherman he gets his own book and he falls in love with a tech tycoon. And honestly it was one of the hottest romances I’ve ever read. Like it was. She nailed it. And that was her first male/male book. And I just went, “Oh wow, you’ve done such a good job.” Also Tessa Bailey she wrote a male/male. What’s it called… I wrote it down. ‘Heat Stroke’. She wrote ‘Heat Stroke’ which is just really sweet. And the relationship between the two men, it was so believable and she’s really good at characterization. She’s fantastic, but my absolute favorite of mine is Sierra Simone, who wrote the ‘Camelot’ series. So it starts with ‘American Queen’ goes to ‘American Prince’ and I actually haven’t read the third one because I got a spoiler and I don’t have the emotional fortitude at the moment. Jeff: I understand how that it goes. Jacqui: But she just writes… So it’s a male/female/male, but the two guys, they’ve been in love for so long before Greer, the woman, actually comes into it and just the depth of their love for each other. And she’s, I mean, it’s kind of filthy – the writing, but awesome. It’s emotional and it’s just, yes, she’s fantastic. Jeff: Since you look at romance really from around the world for ‘Blush’, because you’re in Australia and have read so many Australian authors, do you see a difference of what romance is around the world – what gets written into the books from the native authors? Jacqui: I think that a lot of Australian authors are actually setting their books in the US. I don’t know if that’s a marketing thing or if that’s just what they read and that’s what they want to write, but then there’s a whole crop of Australian authors who are writing rural romance, which is set on an Australian farm as opposed to an American ranch. So you know there are differences in words I guess. I don’t know. Apart from that though, I kind of think everyone’s just writing their own happily ever after. And it’s and in different ways, using different tropes, different locations. I do wish that there were more Indigenous Australians writing romance novels. I think that would be amazing. There are some amazing Indigenous authors, just not so many writing romance, so that that would be really incredible to see. I actually am writing as well. I’m sure everyone who reads is trying to write as well. So I’ve just published my second book, but I would like to co-author a book with… I grew up in a small country town with a high indigenous Aboriginal population. So I went to school with all of these Aboriginal girls and I need to make contact with them and see if one of them will sit down with me and co-write a book, a romance from their point of view. I think that would be amazing. I don’t think that I would have the guts, I guess, to write from that point of view, even if I had a sensitivity reader come in and read it afterwards. I really do think that their issues and their worldviews and, you know, they have their differences and you’ve got to do justice to that. Jeff: So what do you write? Tell us a little bit about your books. Jacqui: Well my full name is Jacqueline, and my maiden name is Hayley, so they’ve written under Jacqueline Hayley. And second, which literally I published yesterday, it’s ‘Getting Under Her Skin’, and it’s set in Sydney. So they’re contemporary romances that are a little bit sexy, I don’t think I really want my mum reading them. Jeff: Yeah that’s awesome. Any chance of a male/male book in your future? Jacqui: Yeah, I think So but I think that, again, I would want to team up with a gay male author to help me do that. Like, I just I don’t want to presume that I would know their life experiences. So I think that would be super fun. Jeff: I hope you get to do that. We’d have to have you back on the show to talk about that when it comes out. Jacqui: Absolutely. Jeff: What can you tell us about upcoming issues [of ‘Blush’] for the rest of this year? Jacqui: Oh, the rest of this year. So I’m actually heading to the Australian Romance Writers Association, their annual conference is in Melbourne, and I have lined up some authors that I’m going to do video interviews with as bonus content for my readers. So we’re just finalizing the details of that, but I do think that video, which can be embedded into the magazine – in the magazine we also find YouTube clips and things as well, the digital magazine format allows for that, which I think is really fun. The video will start to become a little bit more of a thing with the magazine, as much as I don’t really want to see myself on video, I think that it would be really fun for authors, who are normally behind the pen – behind the computer – and you don’t see their faces or hear them. I think that that would be a really fun thing to do. Jeff: Very much looking forward to that. It’s great seeing how the video gets in there to really make this interactive magazine. What’s the best way for people to keep up with ‘Blush’ online and how do they get the subscription? Tell us all about that. Jacqui: So at the moment, to be able to read the magazine, you have to head to the website which is blushmagazine.com and sign up with your email address. So it’s free. And then the magazine gets emailed to you, well a link to the magazine gets sent to you, so that you can view the magazine. Previous issues are available on the website, so you can you can click through there, but probably I’ most prolific on Instagram. That’s kind of where that’s my jam. That’s what I like doing. So you know, for cheeky quotes and books that are coming up, all the behind the scenes of what I’m doing here, that’s Instagram, is where it’s at. Jeff: Very cool, and can readers of the magazine get in touch and suggest ideas? Jacqui: Absolutely. I love it. The interaction is one of the best things that I love about what I’m doing, so I get DMs on Facebook, Instagram, and my email is hello.BlushMagazine@gmail.com. Jeff: And what would you say to anybody who is like, “Gosh, I really like that. Maybe I should start my own.” Jacqui: Yeah. So I guess have a look at the different platforms that are out there to do a magazine on. I use readymag which I really love. But there’s also issu, which I’m kind of looking at as I get bigger. That might be where I go just because you can get more stats on what particular pages people are staying on longer. That kind of thing. So I guess just have a really clear view of what you want to put in your magazine, you’ve got to structure it like a real magazine. So go and get a physical magazine, you need a contents page and an editor’s letter and kind of build it from there, but just know that readers like continuity, so if you’re going to start a section, you’ve got to kind of continue it. So have a really clear idea of what kind of content you want to do. I haven’t done this and I probably should have build up content so that you’re an issue ahead of yourself so that, you know, just to for timing I guess, that would make life easier. I like making things hard for myself. Give it a go, like why not? Compared to the money that I used to put into print publishing, digital publishing… there’s barely any any cost. So yeah, give it a go. Jeff: Cool. Hopefully somebody will take up the inspiration because – at least the way we feel concerning podcasts, the more podcasts the better, the more magazines the better, the more blogs the better. Jacqui: Built this industry! Jeff: Yes absolutely. Well Jacqui, thank you so much for telling us about ‘Blush’, we’re going to link up to everything we talked about- the authors and the magazine – in the show notes, and we look forward to see what comes out in future issues. Jacqui: Thank you so much for having me. It was just the highlight of my week. Thank you so much. Book Reviews Here’s the text of this week’s book reviews: Nowhere Ranch by Heidi Cullinan. Reviewed by Will. Admittedly, I’m a little late to the party when It comes to this book. When I posted online that I’d finished reading Nowhere Ranch, I got a slew of responses, “Isn’t it the best?”, “That’s my favorite Heidi book.” So, for the few that haven’t yet experienced the sexy wonder of this cowboy romance, Nowhere Ranch is about a young guy named Monroe, Roe for short. He’s the prototypical lone cowboy who’s just landed a job at Nowhere Ranch. On one of his free nights, Roe travels several hours away to the nearest gay bar. To his surprise he runs into his boss, Travis Loving. After some flirty banter and surmising that they are both definitely into each other, they spend one wild night together in Travis’s hotel room. Roe tries to keep things professional with his boss, but Travis is just too damn irresistible. After a trip to the rodeo, he gives into his desire yet again. His hook-ups with Travis are so amazing that he begins to reconsider his ‘no relationships’ policy. When it comes to the bedroom, Roe likes things a little kinky. Travis is more than willing to give him everything he wants. After a rough and raunchy tumble in a horse stall on his birthday, Roe is so turned on and turned around, that he just doesn’t know what to do. Guys, this book is incendiary. I’m no expert when it comes to Heidi Cullinan’s books, but the few that I have read, have ridden that delicious line between sweetly romantic and utterly filthy. The kink explored in Nowhere Ranch isn’t your mommas 50 Shades style slap ‘n tickle. This is hardcore stuff in the best possible way. Back to the story. Hailey, the daughter of the ranch foreman, becomes fast friends with Roe and it becomes her personal mission to tutor Roe so he can get his GED. After learning some English composition basics, Roe writes an essay especially for his boss entitled, “Why Travis Loving Should Fuck Me”. What’s wonderful is that the entire text of the essay is included as part of the story. It’s sweet, it’s funny, and it leads to some more smoking hot sex for our two heroes. Unfortunately, the course of true love never did run smooth. A letter from the family that rejected Roe years earlier, forces him to examine what “home” really means. Home is definitely Nowhere Ranch. Some drama eventually forces Roe to make an unwanted trip to deal with the backwards, judgmental people he once called his family. With Travis and Hailey by his side, he sets things to rights and accepts that he is, in fact, worthy of his very own happily-ever-after. There’s a brief time jump at the end of the story to show us just how happy the happily-ever-after is for Roe and Travis. It’s wonderfully schmoopy and surprisingly sweet for a story that is so dang filthy. It just goes to show, that in the hands of a skilled author, kink doesn’t have to equal dark or angsty. The story of two hot and horny cowboys can be just as swoon-worthy as the lightest of rom-coms. The Doctor’s Secret by Heidi Cullinan. Reviewed by Jeff. This book had me at its cover with its clean design, heartbeat along the top and the handsome doctor. And I snatched the audiobook out from under Will because Iggy Toma was doing the narration. As with my other experiences with Heidi and Iggy, this one was above and beyond. The Doctor’s Secret brings Dr Hong-Wei Wu, or Jack as he tells the staff to call him, to Copper Point, Wisconsin. Hong-Wei’s left a high powered residency and his family in Texas to re-locate to this tiny town that needs a surgeon. He also hopes to lead a quiet life here. That’s derailed almost as soon as he steps off the plane because he meets Simon Lane, the hospital’s surgical nurse and the person who was dispatched to pick him up. Simon wasn’t quite ready for the attraction either. He’s in Copper Point working alongside his two best friends who all wanted to stay and give back to their home town–a place so small Simon’s sure he’ll never find a man for him. Hong-Wei is torn from the beginning because he came to Copper Point to get away from complications, but he can’t deny the immediate attraction to Simon. He tends to put himself under a tremendous amount of pressure to always do the right thing, even if that means saying yes to things he doesn’t want. As Simon learns more about Hong-Wei–from his love of classical music as well as his dislike for most pop music, his love of Taiwanese food and even the meticulous way he wants his operating room set up–only made him fall for the man more. Simon’s incredible from the get go. Instead of using “Jack,” Simon wants to use Hong-Wei’s given name and takes the time to learn how to pronounce it. It’s super adorable too how Simon can’t believe Hong-Wei might be flirting with him–their interactions at the hospital are super cute as they both easily get flustered. Their potential relationship comes with great risk. Copper Point is a small town with small town drama and shenanigans. St. Ann’s Hospital has a stranglehold on its employees with a hospital board that attempts to rule with an iron fist. This includes a no-dating policy. As they grow closer though, Hong-Wei’s having none of it, insisting he’ll protect Simon. Simon’s friends Owen and Nick, also doctors at the hospital, help the two get together in secret. As you can imagine neither men want to live in secret, and the more they fall for each other it becomes more difficult to keep it. Beyond Simon catching Hong-Wei’s attention, he starts to fall for the entire town of Copper Point. From the owners of his favorite restaurant to his co-workers to the local orchestra. It’s far more than he ever planned for and he’s not quite sure how to manage all the feelings of peace and happiness he has here. When a medical emergency forces Hong-Wei to reveal more of himself than he planned, the major power struggle begins around the dating policy and the future of St. Ann’s. Heidi does a tremendous job about making us care not only for Hong-Wei and Simon, but for everything that’s at stake for the town. There’s so much to love in this book between Simon and Hong-Wei, their friends, the citizens of Copper Point. The book also has one of the best grand gestures ever. It gave me all the feels. Kudos to Iggy Toma for a brilliant performance, infusing everyone with strong emotions and rich personalities. The tender moments between Simon and Hong-Wei are perfection. I’m looking forward to Owen and Nick’s books in the series. Owen’s is already out but I’m hanging tight for the audio and Nick’s book releases in August.

The guys talk about the television they’ve been watching so far this summer, including American Ninja Warrior on NBC, FX’s Pose, American Masters: Terrence McNally: Every Act of Life on PBS, Grand Hotel on ABC, Good Trouble on Freeform and What/If on Netflix. Jeff reviews In Case You Forgot by Frederick Smith & Chaz Lamar. Jeff interviews Roan Parrish about Raze, the latest book in the Riven series. They talk about the research she did for the series, including going on tour with a band, as well as the eclectic music she enjoys. The origin of Roan’s collaboration with Avon Gale is also discussed along with what got Roan started with writing gay romance. Complete shownotes for episode 196 along with a transcript of the interview are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Interview Transcript - Roan Parrish This transcript was made possible by our community on Patreon. You can get information on how to join them at patreon.com/biggayfictionpodcast. Jeff: Welcome, Roan, to the podcast. It is so great to finally have you here. Roan: Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. Jeff: And it's a perfect opportunity because just last week, you released raise "Raze," just the third book in the "Riven" series. And for those who don't know, tell us about the series and, of course, this latest installment. Roan: Sure. So "Riven" starts out with the book, "Riven," also the series title. And it's kind of an anti-rock star romance. It's about Theo, who's the lead singer of the band, Riven. And they've suddenly hit it big and are super famous. And everyone in the band loves being famous and their success. And Theo hates it. He hates being famous. He hates being the center of attention. He hates, like, people knowing things about him or looking at him when he leaves the house. So he loves the music, but he finds fame, like, the worst thing ever. And so he's about to go off on a new leg of the tour and is sort of, like, wandering the streets of New York, feeling a little bit sorry for himself. When he hears this song coming from a bar, like, someone just strumming guitar, and it's one of the most beautiful things he's ever heard. So he goes in the bar to see who's playing this or what the song is. And he meets Caleb, who is the one playing the music. And Caleb, we learn later, has been a musician for a long time, a working musician, but has sort of gone away from the scene and hidden himself away in his uncle's house out of town because he's had some addiction issues, and he's trying to stay clean by staying away from everything that reminded him of the scene, including music. So they start to talk to each other and they bond over music. And then little by little, they fall in love. The problem being, of course, that for Theo being in the scene and being public is kind of part of his thing. And for Caleb, everything about that just brings back a lot of bad memories. So they have to sort of work together to figure out how that's gonna impact their relationship and if they can get through it. And then it kind of takes a hard left, I feel like this is the thing that I should say for people who haven't read the series, is that the series really does hang together. It has the same secondary characters. It deals with a lot of the same themes, like, the themes of ending up someplace that you never thought you would be. But then in book two, we met Reese, or we've met Reese in book one, but we have a book about Reese who was Caleb's best friend and Reese's husband, Matt. And Matt has nothing to do with the music scene. And the book is told from his perspective. So for people who go in expecting that the whole series is about music, it is in some ways, like, music as a through line. And certainly, this idea of fame and this idea of struggling with fame is a through line. But book one is sort of anti-rock star. And then book two is like working musician and person who's not involved with music at all. So I feel like that's the thing I should say. Jeff: Well, they it does hang together because you've got the working musician. Roan: Yeah, totally. And Reese, who is the working musician is someone who toured with Caleb when Caleb was still playing music. So the characters all hang together and the series hangs together, but it's not a kind of musician book, if that make sense. Jeff: Yeah, that makes sense. Roan: And then "Raze," which is book three, it also hangs together. "Raze," it's similarly about characters ending up someplace that they never thought they would be. And in this book we meet Huey, who was in the first two books, and has been a sort of a little bit of a shadowy figure who we never knew his backstory, we didn't know who he is, he just pops in and dispenses wisdom, and pops out again, he doesn't say much else. And so he was Caleb's sponsor in Narcotics Anonymous. And he's still been working as a sponsor. And he is so used to taking care of everyone else being a sponsor, helping people work through their own addiction issues, dealing with his own, that he doesn't really ever focus on his own life. He's built up this kind of wall of focusing on everyone else, so he never has to think about himself. And we meet Felix, who is doing the same thing, taking care of everyone else but him himself, but through his family instead of through NA. So he grew up and help take care of his younger brothers and sisters, and always helped his sister get whatever she wanted, and has now found himself as his sister goes off to do her music thing, found himself kind of like, "What the hell am I doing with my life? Who am I? I kind of forgot to ever notice what I wanted." And so the two of them come together. And two people who are so used to looking out for everyone except themselves, as you can imagine, when it comes down to trying to make a relationship, they kind of don't know how to do it. They don't know how to ask for what they want. They don't even know what they want from each other. And so feelings kinda bubble up and nobody knows what to do with them. And then it ends really happily. Jeff: As all romance must. Roan: That's a must. And there's even a kitten. So, yeah. Jeff: What attracted you to writing this series? Roan: I think that there's themes that go together. I love music. And I've always been a huge music fan. And one of the things that I've always thought was interesting is that music is so personal, to me, anyway. And I know for many other people, like, each of us, listens to music and feels something - has associations that are deeply personal. And something about the weirdness of something so personal, experienced on a large scale of fame has always struck me as really odd. So you can be at a concert with the band and have thousands and thousands of people there. And each person has been hit with his music in a really personal way. And yet, we're all there together in a super public space, having kind of a personal experience, like, smooshed up together with each other. And I've just always found that really strange. And I know for people who make music, the process of making music is really personal. And it's really different than the process of performing music. And so I think I was interested in what would it feel like to do something really personal in front of a lot of people and then watch as this thing that you've made gets loose on the world, and you no longer have any control over it or what people think of it. And to me being famous seems like absolutely the worst thing I can imagine outside of, like, actual torture. And I know that for some people, that's not the case. But, yeah. So I was interested in writing, like, the genre of rock star romance is a thing. And I was interested in looking at it from the perspective of what would a rock star romance look like, if instead of rock star being a desirable thing, it was a terrible thing or a thing that caused a lot of problems for the rock star. Jeff: What was the process around some of the research, because, like, you talk about this very personal thing. How do you research that? And then how do you try to read and put it in a book so everybody else gets it? Roan: You know, I mean, I don't know. I can't really claim that I did it correctly. I've never been a musician. I like singing karaoke to Paula Abdul once with five other people very drunk in college. And that's about my performance level. But my sister-in-law, my sister's wife is a musician. And she's very personal and writes very personal music and then performs it. And, you know, I've been to many of her shows, obviously. And I went on tour with her in Europe once, like, carrying her stuff and hanging on for the ride. And one thing that struck me was, like, people would come up to her after the show and tell her like, "Your music has meant so much to me. I was going through such a hard time and your music spoke to me in these really hard moments." And so I would see that and I know that people are having these personal responses and have personal relationships with the music. And I know that my sister-in-law does as well. And then, like, the moment that the two of them would be having together would be personal. But there was still this whole performance element that I kinda…yeah, just seems like a very strange crucible of the personal and the public smooshed together, and maybe the performativity of that, in some way, like, hides the personalness…or not hides necessarily, but, like, you need a little bit of distance, like, the lights and the smoke machine, and the darkness, and the space between the stage and the crowd to insulate you a little bit in order to take something that's so personal and project it out in public. Jeff: I love how you kinda had the personal research going on there that you actually went on this tour and got to see all of it kinda go down about as close to it as you could without being the actual performer. Roan: Yeah, yeah, which is awesome. And I mean, like, I've had many friends who do music. So I knew that if I had, like, specific questions, you know, I had some questions about, like, the studio stuff and how you laid out tracks that I was able to ask friends about. But I really do think it's, like, the feeling of performing that I was trying to capture and the sense of what it felt like to have something that was yours, like, the music, and then watch other people make it theirs. And although I've never been a performer in any way, I mean, that's a little bit, like, what happens with books is that I sit at home in my pajamas, like, with cat hair all over me, and I write these books. And then when they're published, it's not mine anymore, it belongs to the people who read it. And I don't really have any control over it. So that part was easy to kind of understand. Jeff: Of course, you mentioned your love of music. And your bio actually mentioned that you listen to torch songs and melodic death metal. Now, I get eccentricity because my playlists are, like, wildly, you know, strangely hooked together in some way. But these two seem very different. What attracts you to these two individual styles? Roan: I think I was trying to write my bio in a way that was, you know, like on dating sites, you wanna say the two things that seem most opposed. So you can be like, "Listen, this is what you're getting as a human being who is essentially at odds with himself," maybe that's just me. Anyway, yeah, I love both of those genres. I think they're both simultaneously really raw and really beautiful. Like, torch songs, I love because they are heartbroken, and tender, and they tell a story, and they're so vulnerable, and beautiful. And melodic death metal is like, doing the same thing, only it can't be vulnerable, or, like, it needs a really harsh bass riff, and loud guitar, and loud drums in order to do something that's that tender and that personal. And I find not like screamy death metal, but yeah, melodic death metal. I find it like one of those puppies that growls at you until you get a little bit closer, and then little by little it sorta lets you pet it. And then by the time you're petting it, it's like, "Oh, no, I really do love this. Please don't ever stop petting me," but then, like, someone else walks in the room and they're all growly again. Jeff: I love that analogy. So awesome. Jeff: Now, speaking of music, with the "Riven" series seems such an obvious thing to perhaps you write to music if you're a writer who does that. Was there a particular playlist that sort of pushed you along in the writing of the series? Roan: You know, I actually didn't listen to music at all writing the series, which is sort of strange when you say it like that. I go through phases of whether I like to write with music on or not. And there have been books that I've written where I listened to the same music over and over. Like, when I wrote...what book was it? Oh, "Out of Nowhere," which is the second book "In the Middle of Somewhere" series, I listened like obsessively to "The Civil Wars" just over, and over, and over. And for some reason, the mood of those albums was, like, exactly the mood that I needed to be in to write that book. But with the "Riven" series, I didn't listen to music at all. Jeff: Interesting. Okay. Roan: Yeah. And none of the music in the books is real. Like, I made up all the band names and all of the music. And I wonder if maybe part of it was like, I didn't want real music in my head because I was making it up. Jeff: That would make sense. Yeah. If you're having to write any kind of song lyrics or anything inside the book, I could see where you would wanna, like, accidentally just pick up something. Roan: Right. Well, it was super adorable actually because one of my best friends who reads all my stuff first is, like, she likes music a lot, but she's like a top 40 radio kind of tastes music person. And so she thought that all of the musical references in my books in the "Riven" series were real, because she knows that I like lots of different kinds of music, and she just didn't know that they were fake at all, which is totally adorable. Jeff: Oh, that's awesome. So you could have an extra career then as a songwriter if you're writing lyrics. Roan: Maybe a band-namer. I like the band names more. Jeff: So I have to ask for the audio book then that you've got song lyrics - does that mean your narrator is actually singing the lyrics? Did you make Iggy sing and Chris sing? Roan: No. And, you know, I don't think that I have a chunk of lyrics long enough to be sung. They're like a couple snippets. But I didn't even think about the fact that I could have written a song of it for the audio book. That would have been awesome. Too late. Jeff: Something to think about maybe for a future book or another installment in the series. Roan: Yeah, yeah. I could do it as like an extra or something, I guess. Jeff: And speaking of the series, is there more to come in this series? Roan: There's not. Like, The Good Place that we were talking about earlier, I have decided that book three is the end. Jeff: Okay. Time to wrap up that universe. Roan: Yeah. And, you know, I say that and obviously maybe I would go back in the future and write another one. But I think the fact that the last book is about a character whose story we've kinda been wondering about for the whole series, it felt like a good place to stop because it's sort of the wrap up of, like, solving the last interpersonal mystery. So that felt like the right place to stop. And there are definitely tendrils. Like, people who've read a bunch of my books will notice that Riven, the band, is mentioned in another book, and that some characters from the "Middle of Somewhere" series are briefly alluded to in "Riven." So there's, like, little Easter eggs for people who have read all the books because I sort of think of everything as being connected in that way. So it'll pop back up, I'm sure. Jeff: I love that. I love the broad interconnected universe thing. Roan: Yeah, yeah. Secretly in my head, all of the books are connected in lots of ways that I don't necessarily put on the page. But, like, I like to get a couple in there. Jeff: Nice. Now, you also co-write with Avon Gale. What got that collaboration going? Roan: You know, that collaboration happened completely by accident, or on a whim, I should say. And I'm so glad it did. So I was living in New Orleans a couple years ago. And Avon and I were friends on the internet. And she offered when I was moving back from New Orleans to Philadelphia, she was like, "I love a road trip. What if I fly to New Orleans and drive with you," because it's a many day drive and you have a cat. I had like my truck and then I had my car hitched to the back of the truck, and it was a whole big thing. So I was like, "Oh, great. This will be fun." So we started driving from Louisiana to Pennsylvania. And it was, like, a torrential downpour. And we couldn't hear the radio. We couldn't do anything. And so Avon was like, "Okay. Well, I'll just tell you about this book that I've been working on. And I am really stuck on it. I can't get the plot right." So I was like, "Okay." And I'm pretty introverted and Avon is very extroverted. And we going in... Jeff: And it's very true, she is. Roan: Yes. And, you know, I really just love a clear communicator, so I loved it. She was like, "Basically, I talk constantly. And if you want me to stop, you have to tell me to stop." And I was like, "Oh, that's amazing. I run out of steam socially in approximately two-and-a-half hours, and I'm still listening to you, but I won't respond." And she was like, "Okay, great." And thus, it was. And so she basically narrated to me the entire plot of this book that she was trying to write, and she was having trouble with it. And I kept doing this probably obnoxious thing where I was like, "Oh, what if you did this?" Or, "What if you did that?" Or, "Oh, my gosh, it's so funny, because if that were me, I would totally do this." And she, instead of being annoyed, was like, "Well, you should obviously write this book with me." And that book was what it turned into "Heart of the Steal," which is the first book we wrote together. And it was so fun because then as we were driving, we just plotted the whole book. And she had her little, like, computer that she was typing on while we drove. And I drove the truck the whole way. And so I would like yammer at her and she would take notes, and then in the hotel rooms at night, we would kinda hash it out. And so it happened on a total whim, and then turned out to be really fun. And so we planned it on that trip. And then I went and visited her months later, I guess. Yeah, some months later, and we actually wrote "Thrall," which was the second book that we co-wrote together, like, in the same place. So we wrote it, like, together, even though we don't live in the same place. So it was two very different writing experiences, but both equally awesome. Jeff: That's fantastic. And I have to imagine it's a nice way to kill the time in a road trip to just write a book. Roan: Oh, yeah, totally. And it's really fun because I don't know about you or about other writers in general, but, like, I find that traveling is one of the best, like, brain, what do you call it? Like, catalyzers, brain catalyzers, something about moving through space constantly, whether it's, like, on a train or just walking or whatever. It's, like, the rhythm of moving through space makes my brain also work in a forward rhythm. And I find myself, excuse me, getting so many ideas when I'm just, like, walking a long distance, or on a train, or on a bus, or something. And so something about driving and plotting the thing together was, like, super, some word… Jeff: Awesome. Roan: Yeah, awesome. Jeff: Probably better than awesome, but awesome was the first thing that popped into my head. Roan: Yeah, yeah. Jeff: And then I totally get what you're talking about there, too, because I've done a lot of plotting and some writing on planes. Because it's like, yeah, there's something about just that that just you've got the time, and, like, the brain is working, so use it. Roan: Yeah. And it's, like, looking out the window of something moving through that kinda space with everything passing so quickly, it almost feels like it changes the rhythm of thoughts or something. Jeff: Yeah. And kudos to Avon for being able to type in a moving vehicle because I don't know that I could do that. Roan: Oh, my God, she has, like, motion sickness proof. I swear to God. Jeff: That's just crazy. Roan: Oh, I know. Jeff: But we definitely got to talk a little bit about "Thrall." I reviewed it back in Episode 157. I was just blown away by it. For folks who don't know, tell us about what that book is and what in fact does make it so special? Roan: So "Thrall" is our modern "Dracula" retelling, basically. And for anyone who's read "Dracula," you'll remember that "Dracula," it's an epistolary novel, so it's told through letters, and diary entries, and, like, newspaper clippings, telegram, stuff like that. And so we did "Thrall" in the same way, we made it an epistolary novel. But since ours was modern, and that one was 19th century, instead of letters and journal entries, and stuff like that, we have emails, and g-chats, and tweets, and podcast descriptions, and stuff like that. So the whole thing is written in that way, this combination of different print media. So we have the main characters that people will recognize from "Dracula." And Mina, and Lucy, who are the two characters that people will know from "Dracula," in our version, have a podcast, a true crime podcast in New Orleans. And they get caught up in basically trying to solve the mystery of Lucy's brother who seems to have disappeared. And so in getting caught up in that mystery, they stumble upon this a role-playing game kind of thing, where they use an app, and they go to different places, and they try to solve clues, hoping that it will take them to Lucy's brother. And so in addition to it being an epistolary form in general for the whole book, then kind of within that epistolary form, there's this mystery that they're trying to solve on a computer, I mean, on a phone app. So it's like a game inside an epistolary novel that's an adaptation of another epistolary novel. Jeff: And epistolary just not something you see very much. At least I don't, especially in the romance genre that I tend to read in general. What was it like as a writer, and just plotting to take on such a different narrative format? Roan: Yeah, it was awesome. It was really, really cool. I love form, like, I'm super interested in what different things you can do with form. And one of the things that, like, when I'm reading other things I'm always interested in is what form did this author choose, whether it's something simple, like, short chapters, or long chapters, or, like, flashbacks versus telling everything in order, all of that stuff, I think, has such an impact on the way the story gets delivered. And so I was really excited to play with the form. And I think that with the genre of romance, one of the reasons why we don't see epistolary stuff so often is that it's, like, an additional level of remove between the two characters. And romance seems, to me, to be all about intimacy and connection. And sure, it can be really romantic or sexy to write a love letter or love email, I guess, in 2019. But there's still something where you're not in the moment. There's no, like, tracking a touch as it happens, or a kiss, or whatever it is. And so I think that going into "Thrall," we were like, "How the hell do we make a romance happen when the characters essentially are never in the same scene?" Like, in order to be texting each other, they probably aren't together. In order to be chatting each other, they're probably not together. And so any evidence of an encounter, which is all we could show, also demonstrated their distance. So that was a challenge. And we got around it in a couple of different ways, including characters literally writing out sex scenes that they wished would happen like fantasies, having chats that were more intimate. But yeah, the romance part, I think, was actually the hardest to portray via the epistolary form because it introduces that necessary distance, which is sort of the anti-romance. It was much easier, for example, for the mystery, or the suspense parts because those things can be portrayed that way no problem. But, yeah, the romance part was tricky. Jeff: Well, as I said the review, I think you guys pulled it off so amazingly. If people have not read "Thrall," they should really pick it up and give it a try. Roan: Oh, thanks. Jeff: Because maybe a little much to call it a breath of fresh air, but it's certainly gonna be something very different than what I think most people tend to read. Roan: Yeah, it definitely is different. And it's one of those books that Avon and I knew going in, but it's not everyone's cup of tea. It's an adaptation. It's an adaptation of "Dracula." It's an adaptation of "Dracula" without vampires. It's a romance where you don't ever see the characters touch necessarily. But like, I feel, like, for people who are interested in form for people who are interested in Dracula or interested in suspense, and all that stuff, we were really excited to just do something totally new for us. Jeff: Yeah. It was super cool. Please do more of that sometime. Roan: I would love too. Jeff: So laying a little bit of your origin story, how did you get involved in writing M/M romance? Roan: You know, at the risk of making, it sound completely accidental, it was kind of accidental. My good friend from graduate school, got a job in Phoenix, and didn't know very many people. She didn't have many friends. And she and I both started reading both young adult and M/M mysteries in grad school. And so I went to go visit her and she was having a hard time. Like, I said she didn't know very many people, didn't have any friends, and she just wanted like, escape reading. And we were, like, in the kitchen cooking dinner or something, and she was saying that she just wished that there was, like, a romance novel that she could read about someone who was in her situation. So someone who was a new professor in a new place, didn't know very many people and was kind of struggling to fit in. And because she's my friend and I wanted to make it all better, I was like, "Oh, no worries, I'll write you a story. Everything is gonna be okay." So on the plane home from Arizona, I wrote the first chapter of what would eventually be "In the Middle of Somewhere," my first book, thinking that, like, I would send it to my friend, and she would read it and be like, "You are such a nerd. I can't believe you actually wrote me this story. I was just complaining. You're weird." But instead, she read it and wrote back and was like, "Oh, a story. Oh, my gosh. What happens next?" And, of course, I didn't know what happened next because there was no next. I thought that it was going to be a little one-off thing. But then I wrote the next chapter and I emailed it to her, and she wrote back and was like, "What happens next?" And I actually wrote the whole first half of the book that way just chunking out a chapter, emailing it to my friend, and I was really writing it for her. I never thought I would show it to anyone. I never intended to send it to a publisher. I didn't even have a plot, I just was writing these little sections. And around halfway through the book, I suddenly realized that, like, it was getting kinda long, and I should probably figure out how it was gonna end. Otherwise, I would just end up writing this, like, email missive to my friend forever, which was really fun. But also, I thought she would get sick of it eventually. And then when I finished the book, I thought that was gonna be the end of it. And it was my friend who was like, "No, you should totally try to publish it." And I owe it all to her, I never occurred to me to send it to anyone. And I would never have done it if she hadn't made me. Jeff: Well, kudos to her for making that happen. And that's the best accident story ever. I mean, just amazing. Were you writing before that at all? Or was this just really like, "Hey, I could write. I'll write you something. No worries." Roan: Well, you know, I've always written different things. I was a poetry major in college of all the super useful things to pursue. And so I wrote poetry or some short fiction. And then I did my PhD in literature. So, you know, I wrote a dissertation, I wrote nonfiction for years, and years, and years. But I've always loved to write. And I love reading novels. And so sitting down to write a novel, I think it actually helps that I wasn't thinking of it as writing a novel. I just thought of it as writing the story for my friend. So I didn't have any of the self-consciousness or like that internal editorial voice that I'm sure if I had planned to send it out, would have like, killed me as I was trying to start. And in terms of, like, as we get back to your original question, which I don't know that I actually answered in terms of, like, why M/M romance specifically. I hate misogyny, and sexism, and can't deal with stories where I read female characters and feel intensely alienated from them. And I find often in romance, not all by any means, there are some amazing, amazing, like, revolutionary really amazing people writing romance with women, but I've often found that reading romance novels that are, like, heterosexual romance stories make me feel alienated, and angry, and the opposite of anything that I associate with romantic. And so, yeah. Jeff: Who are sort of your author influences? Roan: Oh, man. Well, you know, growing up, I read everything. I'm a real, like, moody reader. So I go through phases. And when I'm in that phase, that's all I read. So, like, when I was in elementary school, I was obsessed with S. E. Hinton Hinton, "The Outsiders" and "Rumble Fish," those books. And she writes with this very kind of, like, spare style, but lots of sensory detail. And I think that that's definitely something that I've always really admired was the ability to evoke feeling even while being very spare. And then when I was in middle school, I was obsessed with Anne Rice, obviously, because middle school. And I read her books over, and over, and over. And I think that she is like the master of the kind of Baroque sentence structure that when you're deep in, reading one of her books, you don't notice that she's, like, in a strange Yoda way, like, flipping a subject and predicate to make things sound, more flourishy and purple prosy. You don't notice it because you're so deep in it that, like, of course, that character would talk that way. But if you go and you read another author or another book, you realize suddenly what she was doing. And so I think from her, I got just, like, I really respected this immersive detail-rich all the senses engaged kind of writing. Also, I really love long books, and the ability to sustain a story over 800 pages, and keep going with this level of detail. I mean, I know it's not everyone's bag, like, some people really like a short one and done, but I mean, I will read a series that goes on forever if I'm still engaged. And I just think that she does that incredibly well. Then, oh, gosh, I'm taking you on a tour. I don't know if this is actually answering your question, but I do think... Jeff: It is actually. Yeah. Roan: Oh, okay, good. The real answer is, like, I learned things from every single author I read. And sometimes, it's things that I don't ever wanna do. And sometimes, it's things that my mind is blown because I'm like, "Holy crap, I didn't even know you could do that." Sometimes it's like I feel like I'm weak in one area at a moment. And so I wanna go read someone who I think does something really well and try to learn it. Oh, Francesca Lia Block was a huge influence when I was a teenager. She writes this kind of magical realism that is, like, very urban set - in LA, deals with real world problems, but has this, like, pink fog over the entire thing. And I was really, really taken by that. That way of combining urbanity with fantasy, and so that's definitely something that I took from her. I went through a really deep, like, epic historical fiction kick, which maybe is that same kind of, like, very immersive detail, huge cast of characters, all that stuff. And, oh, gosh, I'm totally blanking on her. Oh, Sharon Kay Penman is her name. Okay. Sorry, this is maybe a tangent. But this story blows my mind and is, like, one of the more impressive things I've ever heard in my life, if you'll indulge me for a moment. Jeff: Of course. Roan: So Sharon Kay Penman writes these, like, hugely epic, 1,000-page long, British Isles historical fiction. And she wrote this book called "The Sunne in Splendour," in, like, I wanna say the early 80s, maybe mid-80s. And the book is epically long, and just detail, and hundreds and hundreds of characters, and like tons of things translated into Welsh. It's about Welsh civil wars, or wars with England. Anyway, she wrote the book and, like, on a typewriter, and had it in one of those, you know, the boxes that reams of paper come in…you would put your manuscript in this box. So she was going to drive her book to her publisher. And she stopped at the bank to, like, deposit a check or something. And when she came back out, her car had been stolen with the copy of the book inside, the only copy of the book, which I don't even know how that happens. So the car stolen, she's just sure she's never gonna get it back. And whereas, like, I don't know, I would probably immediately go home and, like, order seven pizzas, and you wouldn't see me for a month. She drove home and started writing the book again. Jeff: Wow. I would have done the seven-pizza thing and then walked away for, like, at least a week. Roan: Yeah. Like, I would have told every single person who would listen that my life's work had been ripped from me. And it was the worst thing that ever happened to me and which, you know, I think that's actually speaking pretty well of my life that that would be the worst thing. But, yeah, I just, like, that level of tenacity and dedication to a project, it just blows my mind. Anyway, she's amazing. Jeff: Yeah, that's awesome. And just, like, I can't even imagine, it speaks so well to these days where we're like, "Did you back that up on Dropbox?" Roan: Yeah, at least someone's like, "Oh, man, I just spent, like, 20 minutes writing that email and it got wiped." And I'm like, "Sharon Kay Penman." Jeff: So what's coming up next for you? What's yet to come this year? Roan: Well, do wanna be the first person to know because I actually just found out yesterday? Jeff: Oh, breaking news. Roan: Breaking News. Yeah, I just sold a new book, which I'm pretty excited about. Okay. The concept is, there is a guy who has a bunch of animals. He's like, kind of antisocial, kind of pissed off at the world for reasons that I will not divulge yet. And he likes animals better than people. So he has all these rescue dogs and a bunch of cats that hang around. And basically, all he wants to do is take his dogs on these long rambling walks and think about how fucked up his life has gotten. It's the only thing keeping him sane, it's just, like, rambling walks with these dogs. And one night he is walking with the dogs and one of them starts chasing something. And he starts chasing the dog and falls down a hill and breaks his ankle. So all of a sudden, he can't do the one thing that he's liked, which is walk his dogs. So he goes online, and he finds this app that, like, match makes pet owners with people who wanna hang out with animals, but can't have pets of their own, because he's looking for someone who could help him walk his dogs, since he can't do it anymore. Then you have this other character, who's super shy lives with his grandma is, like, husband saving up to try to, like, get a new apartment so that he could have a dog. And then his grandfather dies, he has to move in with his grandmother, and he can't have an animal because she's desperately allergic. So he goes on the matchmaker app, and gets matched with this dude who needs someone to walk his dogs. And so the Meet Cute is a dog walking app, and a grouchy meets a shy guy, and lots of animals, and love. Jeff: Well, this sounds awesome. When do we get to see this? I'm guessing 2020 sometime? Roan: I think so. I don't have a date on it. I'll start working on it soon. But, yeah, I think it's gonna be, like, cute-ish in tone. And I don't know, I keep, like, accidentally writing animals into every single one of my books. And I don't even mean too. And this time. I was like, "Well, I mean, I keep doing it by accident. Maybe this time, I'll just, like, actually do it on purpose." Jeff: And what's the best way people can keep up with you online and find out when this next thing comes out? Roan: Well, they can check out my website, roanparrish.com, where I post all things that exist. And then in terms of social media, I've been very active on Instagram stories lately. I just bought a house, my first house, like the first non-one-bedroom apartment that I've been living in. And I've been doing all these, like, garden planting, and baking, and projects, and stuff. So I've been really liking Instagram stories. So people should follow me there and tell me all the things that I'm doing wrong in my garden. Jeff: They may not think you're doing wrong. Roan: I mean, it's my first time and I feel, like, I'm doing everything wrong. But we'll see, it might grow. Jeff: I bet it does. And congratulations on the first house. That's such a huge thing. Roan: Oh, thank you. I really went, like, in the space of one month from a person who thought that they would always live in one-bedroom apartments to a person who bought a house. And so it was very shocking for me. I keep wandering to the extra room and being, like, "What's gonna go in here? I don't know." Jeff: It's part of the fun of home-ownership. Roan: Yeah. Mostly, it's like my cat goes in there. And that's what happened. So I mean, I'm on all the social media things. I'm everywhere as Roan Parrish and people can find me. But Instagram stories is totally the most fun. And for people who, like, wanna know about when books are coming out, but don't dig the social media vibe, BookBub is a great place to find me because they'll just get emails when I have books coming out or on sale. Jeff: Fantastic. Well, we will link up to everything we talked about in the show notes. We wish you the best of luck with the release of "Raze." And thanks so much for hanging out with us. Roan: Oh, thanks so much. It was a blast. Book Reviews Here's the text of this week's book reviews: In Case You Forgot by Frederick Smith and Chaz Lamar. Reviewed by Jeff Frederick Smith and Chaz Lamar are new to me authors and I loved reading their first collaboration, In Case You Forgot. Frederic and Chaz are two black gay men writing about two black gay men living in West Hollywood. This year in the life story left me wanting sequels because I want to read even more about these two interesting characters. Zaire James and Kenny Kane are in similar positions. Coming up on his 30th birthday, Zaire decided it was time to separate from his husband, even though a lot of his family and his friends thought Mario was perfect for him. Kenny, approaching 40, was dumped by Brandon-Malik via text as he was en route to his mother’s funeral. Both of these guys need a reboot. For Zaire that means moving into WeHo--it happens that he moves in across the street from Kenny. He’s got a new job at a social media firm and he’s looking for what comes next. He’s got a family that wants him to find it too--the James Gang siblings--brother Harlem and sisters Langston and Savannah--are always on him to get his life together and find his happy. Kenny, on the other hand, is working on getting his consulting business off the ground since he’s recently finished his doctorate. He’s trying to mostly focus on the business, but he also wants to find Mr. Right. Kenny also carries the weight of having watched his first boyfriend, Jeremy, die after a stabbing. He’s working on his life with some therapy. So what happens in this book? Life. Kenny and Zaire, at times together and at others separate, look for a good date that may lead to more, celebrate birthdays, experience success and failures. The last line of the book’s description captures this perfectly: “...they hope new opportunities, energy, mindsets, and connection will reinvigorate what is missing in their lives--drama and all.” That’s exactly what I liked about In Cast Your Forgot, the slice of life feel. It’s happy, sad, angry, messy and full of great triumph and really bad mistakes. It takes a lot to make this kind of loose plot work, especially since the two lead characters aren’t always together as the year progresses. Frederick and Chaz made it work though. One of the reasons it works is the cast of supporting characters from family, friends, roommates and co-workers. Among my favorite parts of the book was the use of social media to plan their lives and sometimes even to stalk their exes, at times to the chagrin of the friends trying to help them move on. There’s also a Labor Day trip to Palm Springs that was one of my favorite parts of the book because of the realness of how it unfolded and how it tweaked Kenny and Zaire’s relationships. The characters reminded me of Noah’s Arc, a show I loved that ran on Logo in 2005 and then was a movie in 2008. The show focused on queer men of color in various states of life and relationships. Kenny and Zaire would fit right in there. I do want to set some expectations around this book. As you may have figured out, it’s not a romance. It’s categorized that way on the Bold Strokes Books site as well as at retailers. I think that’s wrong. It doesn’t have any of the typical romantic story beats and, most importantly while Kenny and Zaire date for a bit in the middle of the book they don’t get an HEA or HFN as a couple….although the book does end with both characters in good places. If you want a great look at a year-in-the-life of some terrific characters who are trying to get their lives together, I highly recommend In Case You Forgot. And I’d love to see sequels to this book. Frederick, Chaz, please write romances for these guys...

The guys talk about their past week as Jeff worked on revisions and they saw a production of Oklahoma, which they both enjoyed. They also welcomed the new listeners that have found the show during the past month. Jeff reviews Something Like Gravity by Amber Smith and Will reviews Annabeth Albert's Arctic Wild. Will and Jeff talk with Annabeth Albert about the Frozen Hearts series, including getting a sneak peek of Arctic Heat, which comes out in September. Annabeth also talks about the research that goes into the Frozen Hearts books, the latest in the Out of Uniform and Rainbow Cove series plus she discusses her next series about smoke jumpers. Complete shownotes for episode 195 along with a transcript of the interview are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Interview Transcript - Annabeth Albert This transcript was made possible by our community on Patreon. You can get information on how to join them at patreon.com/biggayfictionpodcast. Jeff: We are excited to welcome back to the show, Annabeth Albert. She was last here, way back in December 2017 in episode 115, talking about "Wheels Up". You have written so much since then. It's so great to have you back to catch up. Annabeth: Hi, happy to see you. Jeff: Now, the most recent thing you got out is the "Frozen Hearts" series. Tell us a little bit about this series and what its inspiration was. Annabeth: So I started reading in the late '80s, early '90s romance. And I love the Alaska set Debbie Macomber's and Nora Roberts. And so my inspiration for this series would be, what if we went back to that sort of setting but made it LGBTQ and fun and that big, sweeping feeling - the big scenery, big emotions, mountain men? I wanted to capture all that feeling of Alaska. And also all the Alaska shows that I like watching, "Man Versus Nature," all those sort of shows. And so I thought, let's bring that sort of big scenery to life in a series that also has LGBTQ characters. And so it was really fun for me to get to bring that to life. And it's a three book trilogy, and each book stands alone really well because we kind of did it so that there's very little overlap in the storylines for this particular trilogy. With "Out Of Uniform", they were a little more closely linked, you saw more secondary characters popping up, back and forth. And here, they stand alone a little bit more. Will: Aside from the inspiration itself, did you have any experience with Alaska? Have you ever been there? Annabeth: That's what's the funny part. No, I haven't actually been there. I feel guilty admitting that right now. But I have done a ton of research. And I also had Alaska beta readers for each of the books. I had people who actually live in the area in Alaska, who are able to give me feedback. "Oh, this is wrong. The coast is over here. This is..." But I did a ton of reading books set in Alaska and documentaries and message boards. And then like I said, using the beta and the sensitivity readers too from Alaska. Jeff: It's so good to have readers in your readership who can be those beta people when you need them. Annabeth: Yeah. I think that it's really important. In Book Two, I have a hero who's native Alaskan. And so it was really important to me to get a couple of beta readers and sensitivity readers who themselves identified as native Alaskans so I can have that perspective come in. And so that's really important to me. Sometimes it takes a while to find the right beta reader for that particular project. Like with book one, we had some alcoholism and some eating disorders being dealt with in that book. And so what I was able to do is get beta readers for that issue. Like I had an eating disorder beta reader, I had an alcoholism beta reader, I had some sensitivity readers kind of about trauma and stuff like that. So I tried to really bring in a lot of perspectives, so that it's both authentic and it feels true to the character, but also is sensitively done. Will: I agree with you about the sensitivity. I mean, because you're dealing with some pretty, you know, heavy, serious subjects. But they're handled in an intelligent and thoughtful way that doesn't make it like preachy or a downer. So I really enjoyed that in the first book. And I wanted to go back to the second book, "Arctic Wild", which I really, really loved. Can you talk to us a little bit about the ideas and inspiration behind that particular book? Especially the themes kind of like, you know, there's like hurt-comfort going on, there's kind of May-December going on with that particular book. What was the inspiration behind book two? Annabeth: So each of the books, I wanted a different fish out of water, so different characters kind of coming. And so I wanted to do a character who was a little bit older, more settled in his life, and confident in who he is. And so I knew he was going to be older, I knew he was going to be a lawyer, I knew he was going to be fairly well off. And I wanted to do a silver fox sort of character, but I call him my silver bear, because he's also a little bit of a larger guy. I wanted something a little outside the norm for him kind of...and then I was like, "Well, so who is he going to get paired with?" Well, obviously, he's got to get paired with someone who's fun and younger, and kind of his opposite in a lot of ways. But I knew that I wanted the hook that kind of bonds them together to be this plane crash, because I knew all along that book two was going to have a plane crash, because every book kind of has its own thing. And I knew that book two's thing was going to be bush pilot, an emergency situation, we've got a crash landing. How are these guys going to deal with it, and who is the most unsuitable guy I could put with the bush pilot in the wilderness having to deal with this emergency? So I did that. And so that was kind of the thing that kind of spurred the book forward from that point. But as I started plotting, I realized that the bulk of the book was going to come after the plane crash. Because at first I was like, maybe I'll do a really tight timeline, I'll get the whole book into a week. And that just wasn't working for these heroes. They really resisted a tight timeline. So I ended up expanding it and I was like, okay, they're going to have to deal with this aftermath together. And so because they have to deal with it together, they kind of bond in a deeper sort of way, spending the summer together as opposed to just 24 hours in the wilderness. And so to me, that was a real joy to watch them evolve and change. And it's my longest book to date. You can see how thick it is. It's a monster. But part of why it's so big is kind of the scope of it. I was able to bring in the secondary characters, Reuben's daughter, and then Toby's sister and father. I have a lot of secondary characters happening in this one. And it was just really fun for me to take that initial idea--there was going to be a plane crash with these opposites attract guys, and they're going to have to deal with it--to this more sweeping sort of story where it does become, like you said, a hurt-comfort story. How do we cope with the aftermath? And the changes that it brought within each of us. So I think that's kind of what I think the book ends up doing. Jeff: You mentioned the Native Alaskan aspect in book two. And before we hit record, you mentioned that book two is also the most research-heavy of these. What kind of research did you do to get it all to work out right? Because I imagine bush pilot, plane crashes, there's research to do there, too. Annabeth: Yeah, each element, like each sort of...and a lot of times what I do is I work in Scrivener. And in Scrivener I'll have notes for each chapter. And in a short story, like I might have like a line or two of notes per scene. In something like this, I'll have a long list and it'll have the research questions for each chapter that's going to come up. Like, okay, I need to know how a pilot would handle this sort of altitude disturbance in his thing. And what would that actually mean? What do the instruments look like? What sort of plane is he flying and what's the weather like? I have to do a lot of research into that. For that, I look at message boards, I look at small plane businesses, I look at write-ups of past disasters, news reporting. I look at a lot of stuff to kind of get that one detail. Like, I won't just, you know, get one thing. I'll look at a couple of different things to kind of get a couple of perspectives. And the same thing with the Native Alaskan details. Obviously, it's not my own lived experience and I'm really aware of that. So I had the two beta readers who were themselves identifying as Native Alaskan. I did a lot of research with blogs, blogs written by people who identify as Native Alaskans. Autobiographies, I did a couple of phone interviews, I really tried to get a variety of experiences so that I could bring Toby to life in a way that was both sensitive and well-rounded and that reflected a variety of sort of different opinions and different ways that sort of their lives end up unfolding. And so I'm very proud of the amount of research that went into both Toby and the book as a whole because like you said, the bush pilot, the plane crash. I had a floor plan at one point of their rental house, I have a floor plan drawn on my office wall of exactly what this rental house would look like, where it's located, what the driveway...all this stuff. Like, I really go into the minutia. Jeff: I like that attention to detail. Because as you said, it just brings everything more to life as it goes. Now you did mention it was a trilogy, and in September, it wraps up with "Arctic Heat". What's coming in that book and can you give us a little sneak peek? Annabeth: So I am so excited for this one. I love the whole trilogy, each book was its own sort of joy to write. But "Arctic Heat" is the one that I was probably most excited about. It's close proximity. We have a ranger who's handed this volunteer and who's going to be snowed in for the season. And this does happen actually. In Alaska, there are volunteer positions where you can basically go and stay in the State Park over winter. And so you're able to basically experience an Alaskan winter with a ranger. And it's kind of cool. So I was like, "Yeah." When I heard about this, I was like, "Oh, yeah. This has got to be a romance." And so the one hero who comes from California, he's kind of a free spirit and he has no idea what he's in for. Even though he's been around snow a little bit, but he has no idea what he's in for. And then we have the older cranky ranger who also is like, he's lost his longtime partner. She's gone on to be back in the city and he's really kind of cranky about this. And he's been handed this guy, and so they're going to spend the winter snowed in together. And along the way, they're going to catch some feelings, and it's going to be really fun. And so they meet each other at training. And they're really not sure about each other. We have Quill, who's the ranger and Owen, who's the younger guy from California. And Owen has a feeling about Quill kind of from the beginning. And he's got his number. And so they end up going out to dinner. And at this point, Quill doesn't know yet that they're going to be snowed in together all winter. So Quill is kind of in the dark about that. But Owen is sure about kind of, he likes Quill, and he likes Quill a lot. And so I was going to give you guys...now if you read "Arctic Wild" in the back of "Arctic Wild" there's the first scene for this one, for "Arctic Heat". So I didn't want to read to you from that scene, because if you read "Arctic Wild" you've seen it. So I'm going to give you a little snippet of their first kiss. And it just kind of shows they're dynamic. I think it's just a couple of paragraphs and I'm just going to read it to you. And I'm not as good as my narrators, I have awesome narrators but we're just going to see. So they're leaving a restaurant here. "They each paid their share and then headed outside. The light had started to fade, the midnight sun of the summer long past. The crisp bite to the air making Owen wished he had grabbed more than his hoodie. 'Cold?' Quill asked as Owen rubbed his arm. 'A little, yeah. Warm me up, please. I know a shortcut through the alleyways back to the hotel. Lead on.' Owen followed him as he ducked down the narrow alley, both of them walking too fast for much conversation. 'Whoa!' Quill's arm shot out holding Owen back as an SUV unexpectedly backed into the alley. Yanking Owen into a dark doorway with him, Quill frowned at the vehicle which took it sweet time vacating the alley, long enough for Owen to sense Quill's warmth and nearness. More of that classic intoxicating scent, the harshness of their breathing that much sexier in the close quarters. The charged air around them was made worse with every brush of their arms. "You sure there's nothing on your bucket list?" As the SUV finally moved on, Owen turned to block Quill from an easy exit. 'Nothing I could help with?' 'Not sure,' Quill hissed out of breath which was decidedly not a resounding no. So Owen moved closer. 'I am very open minded and discreet. You could tell me.' 'You're something else,' Quill whispered. But his tone was more awestruck than censuring. 'So I've been told.' Taking a chance, Owen put a hand at his shoulder and was relieved when Quill didn't immediately flinch away or tell him off. 'Come on. Take a chance. Nothing you're curious about?' 'Like what?' Owen's voice with a harsh whisper. 'Mmh.' Owen pretended to think as he leaned in close enough to brush his lips against Quill's neck. Quill was taller but not by so much that Owen had to overly stretch. His skin tasted good, warm, ever so slightly salty. 'This maybe,' he moved to flip Quill's ear lobe with his tongue, 'Or this, so many delicious possibilities.'" And that's the look at kind of what's happening between them when they get started. And you'll have to see the rest. But I loved writing Owen and Quill. They were so much fun, it takes place over a couple of months. So we get to kind of see their progression. It's a little bit of a slow burn, each of the books in the series has been a little more slow burn. But once they get going, there's a lot of heat. And so it was a really fun one for me. And I really enjoyed kind of, whereas "Arctic Wild" had the bigger cast of characters, this is mainly the two of them, dealing with the elements of nature, dealing with each other, dealing with roommates issues. It's kind of the 'Odd Couple' in Alaska. And so it was just a lot of fun. I can't wait for you guys to get to see this in September. Jeff: Have you pre-ordered this yet? Because that forced proximity is so your jam. Will: I have enjoyed each of the books up to this point. But book three hits pretty much everything that I'm looking for in a romance. I mean, listeners, longtime listeners know, forced proximity is my absolute most favorite thing ever. So yes, that reading you just did it's like, whew, I can't wait. Jeff: I think you mentioned that this is a real thing people can do to opt to go snowed-in with a ranger. Annabeth: Yeah, they do. Yeah. So there's volunteer positions all year long with the Alaska state parks. And with the National Parks too, though, those are a little more competitive. But you can go for the summer, you can go for the winter, and they have like little yurts or tiny cabins. Pretty rustic conditions but they're looking for volunteers to basically help the paid rangers out because without the volunteers, they couldn't get nearly as much done as they can. So basically, you become a winter caretaker or a summer caretaker at one of these parks. And you get to help the Ranger but you also get to spend winter in Alaska, with all the snow and a tiny yurt. So stuff like that. And each of the sites has its own housing situation. And so that was some of the research I had to do was figure out, what would the housing situation be like at this particular site, as opposed to other sites? How are they going to get their heat? How are they going to get electric? Do they have access to the internet? All those little questions come up? Jeff: It's fascinating. Would you ever consider doing such a thing? Annabeth: I have small kids. And so sometimes that seems really appealing. Like, "Oh, I could go for three months." And other times, it's like, "No, they'd miss me and I'd miss them and the dog would pine." Jeff: Research trip. Annabeth: I'm going to say my next series is back to Oregon. We're going to be back in Oregon but we're going to be in Central Oregon. And so we are actually taking a research trip as a family towards later in the summer. We're doing a research trip to go into Central Oregon to see some of the places that will be in that series. So I'm excited about that. Jeff: Oh, cool. Not quite the same as snow in a yurt. But, you know, research trip nonetheless. Annabeth: Yeah. Well, I get to bring the kids on that one. So it'll be fun. Jeff: They might enjoy snow in a yurt. I don't know. Annabeth: They would. They would. Yeah. Jeff: You've had a prolific year, even before the "Frozen Hearts" books started coming out. You had new stuff in the "Rainbow Cove" and "Out Of Uniform" series. Are there challenges working across so many series that are so close together in release times? Annabeth: So what I tend to do is I tend to write in blocks. So all three Alaska books were written back to back to back. But in between two of them, I took a little tiny "Rainbow Cove" break. I gave myself five days to write a novella. I was like, "Okay, I'm kind of burned on Alaska, just a little." And so I was like, "Okay, I'm just going to give myself five days because I'm supposed to be writing these books back to back and I'm going to write a "Rainbow Cove" novella. And I did. I wrote 20k in five days. And that became "Lumber Jacked". And obviously editing it and stuff took more than the five days. But I got the basic draft down and then I worked on the edits for that while I went on to Alaska three. And that's how I worked a "Rainbow Cove" in. Because it's not a full length, it's a novella. And then the "Out Of Uniform", that wrapped, actually wrote that last April. So I wrote it April 2018. Then I started Alaska after that. But then it didn't come out until January because that's how publisher schedules work. And so I wrote it as part of Camp NaNoWriMo 2018. It was really fun. Loved writing "Rough Terrain". So it coming out in January was just a joy. But that kind of wrapped up a period of finishing up "Out Of Uniform" and then moving into the Alaska universe. And so I kind of go from universe to universe. I try not to hop back and forth anymore, because I've done that in the past. And I ended up having to reread a lot of my stuff a lot more when I'm going back and forth between series. And so I think the biggest challenge for me has been working in time for "Rainbow Cove" because that one doesn't have publisher deadlines. And so I tend to be overly optimistic with my publisher deadlines, and I'm like, "Oh, I'll get this book done early." And then I'll get another "Rainbow Cove" in. And lately that has not been happening. The books have been going long and complicated. And I love that. I love writing long, I love writing complex books. But it has made it a challenge in terms of working more "Rainbow Cove" in. Jeff: What is going on in "Lumber Jacked", that people who are reading "Rainbow Cove" might want to check out? Annabeth: So that one, like "Rainbow Cove", is set on the Oregon coast, and all the books are. So it has a honest to goodness lumberjack as the hero. He makes a brief appearance in book two but this stands alone. If you haven't read book two, you're fine. And it's just 99 cents and it's also in KU. It's a fun little...it's under 30K because I ended up adding a little bonus epilogue to it. But so it has a lumberjack who is an amateur photographer on the side. He likes to take bondage pictures, and so like rope, like Shibari pictures. Like, there's some really neat artwork done with Shibari. And so he meets this makeup blogger, and the makeup blogger is like, "Maybe I would like to pose for one of these pictures." And so their courtship kind of unfurls from there with photos and lumberjack plaid. And it's a lot of fun. But I really liked the chance to write my makeup blogger hero because there's been so many amazing male makeup bloggers recently, becoming even the face of some major brands and stuff. And so I wanted to show that sort of side of masculinity as well. These guys have embraced more of the makeup loving, glitter loving sides of themselves. And so I wanted to do a hero on that sort of spectrum. And so that was really fun for me to get to do him and contrast him with our big burly, older lumberjack guy. And so it's fun. Jeff: That's cool. And for "Out Of Uniform", is "Rough Terrain" the end of the line for that series? Annabeth: Well, I never say never and I do have more military in Alaska. One of my guys is a former Air Force pilot. And in the 'Heart To Heart' charity anthology coming up this fall - I'll have a marine in that one. So I haven't left military romance completely. But I think "Rough Terrain" kind of brought "Out Of Uniform" full circle in a lot of ways. It felt like book seven, a natural sort of stopping point for this part of the series right now. But I'm not ruling out more SEALs in the future. We'll just have to see what the future brings. There's a lot of things I want to explore and a lot of series I want to do. And so, we'll just have to see. But I think fans that like the "Out Of Uniform" will really like something that's coming from me in 2020, which is going to be smoke jumpers. So I've got the band of brothers again, but they're firefighters. And they're in Central Oregon, like I said. They're in Central Oregon fighting forest fires. And it's going to be really...I'm looking forward to the research and I'm really looking forward to being back with a band of brothers kind of group of friend heroes. And it should be really interesting and fun. Jeff: Is that some of the research you're doing on the Oregon trip this time? Annabeth: Yeah. So we'll be actually going to some Oregon fire stations. We'll look at like both the little towns that they live in. We'll also go to some of the state forest areas there, see some actual forest damage and stuff. I've got some different things planned for us to kind of really...I want to really get my five senses into that area, because I live in Oregon, obviously. But I live more in the valley. And so I'm going more into that Central Oregon terrain, it is way different, like you said. It's way different terrain. And so I want to really immerse myself in that to really get that flavor for readers. Jeff: That's very exciting. You've hinted at some stuff in the future like with "The Smoke Jumpers". Of course, "Arctic Heat" comes out in the fall. Anything else you can tease out in the universe? Fill us with what's coming up. Annabeth: So I have a book coming...so "The Smoke Jumpers" will be coming summer 2020. And in between, "Arctic Heat" and "The Smoke Jumpers", I have my first book with Sourcebooks coming. And it is a YA-NA crossover, little bit lower heat, but a lot of the same fun and energy that a YA-NA...you'd expect in a YA-NA crossover. I think fans who have liked some of the lower heat ones that have been rising up the charts like "Red, White, and Royal Blue", that sort of book, I think they might like this sort of tone. And it's a road trip romance, which I love road trips. Like I just said, I love road trips. And so I'm really excited. It's a road trip romance with gamer guys. They're in college, and they're going to a big gaming convention. Like imagine ComicCon, but it's for a card game that they both play. Like, Magic The Gathering, but I kind of invented a fake card game for them. So they're like these gamer guys who have to make the convention on time to get their chance in the big tournament. And it's going to be a lot of fun. I don't think they've gone public with the title yet. But it is coming in April 2020. And so I can't wait to see the cover they're doing and it's going to be really fun. It's going to be in bookstores, which is...I'm really excited about. So it's going to be in the trade paperback. Jeff: Yeah, we were excited to see...I believe it was the first of the "Frozen Hearts" series that we found in our local Barnes and Noble. Annabeth: I know. I'm so stoked. Readers keep tagging me in pictures in the wild of these books. And it makes me so happy. And readers, if you see the books in the wild, take a picture for me. I do love seeing them, I love...and if you like your local bookstore carrying more LGBTQ fiction, let the bookstore know. Even if you're not buying a book that day, say, "Hey, I'd like to see more fiction like this." Not just mine, but a lot of other authors that are coming into mass market and stuff. The more appetite there is for that, I think the more we'll see that in bookstores and stuff and airport kiosks and stuff. And so I'm excited for that. Jeff: Yeah, it's an exciting time. And it feels like "Red, White, and Royal Blue" may lead some of that too. I know that's not a mass-market book. But the fact that they're getting picked up in Target is pretty exciting. So definitely ask for those books. Annabeth: Yeah. I think the more you see that and my...and Sourcebooks has a lot sort of planned around the release of this road trip romance. That should take it to a broader audience. So I'm really excited to see some of what they've got planned and coming. And so it's been really fun to work on that. And that may end up being a series. We just have to see. Jeff: Cool. I'm thinking on your backlist, is this kind of a first for YA for you? Annabeth: Well, they're college age. And so I've done college age with a high heat level in "Winning Bracket". And then I did college age with a lower heat level in one of my freebies, "First In Line", which is set in the same universe as "Winning Bracket". And so that's a sweeter one, it just has a kiss. The one that I'm talking about is somewhere in between there. There are some love scenes, they're just not quite as graphic. And so it was kind of fun to go back to the college universe and kind of...I love that age of hero and I really enjoyed kind of being in that universe with them and that age for a little bit. And so that was fun. But it's not like YA is typically considered senior in high school and older. So that's why they're calling this kind of a crossover because they are in college but upper YA readers will probably enjoy this. Jeff: Cool. Awesome. I'm excited for that one. Will: Yeah, that sounds... Jeff: I love YA new adult so much. So what's the best way for everyone to keep up with you online? Annabeth: So I'm on Facebook. I have Annabeth's Angels as our Facebook reader group. I welcome everyone into there, whether you've read me or not. If you want to talk about fun books, we welcome people in there. I'm also on Facebook myself. I welcome people to follow me on Facebook. I'm on Twitter and Instagram, little bit less than Facebook. Facebook's kind of my big addiction. But I am on Instagram and Twitter. And I also do playlists for all of my books on Spotify. So if you're on Spotify, you can follow me on Spotify and see kind of the music that's influencing the different books. Jeff: Fantastic. We will link up to all that stuff in the show notes. For sure. Thank you so much for hanging out with us. We wish you the best of luck with everything you've got coming out later this year and into 2020. Annabeth: Thank you. Book Reviews Here's the text of this week's book reviews: Something Like Gravity by Amber Smith. Reviewed by Jeff. This was the summer book I didn’t know I was looking for. Not only is it set during the summer, but--in the best way possible--it moves like a lazy summer, filled with all the best things. It’s hard to explain that aspect of it, but it’s one of the things I loved about this book with the feel that with everything else that happens there was the vibe of the lazy summer. Something Like Gravity opens as summer break from school begins. Chris has just arrived at his Aunt Isobel’s where he’ll stay as he tries to reset after being assaulted the year before as he came out as transgender. Meanwhile, Maia, who lives across the field, is still reeling from the death of her older sister. Over the course of the summer, Chris and Maia find comfort and love with each other, reveal their secrets and are able to heal--although it’s far from easy. The meet cute for Chris and Maia is nearly fatal and sets the tone for how their early relationship works--rather adversarial. Chris goes out for a drive with the car that he gets to use for the summer and he practically runs over Maia, who was stopped on her bicycle in the middle of the road. The two hardly speaking in the aftermath but after that gravity starts to pull them together. In the hands of a lesser writer, building a story of first love set amongst loss and trauma would likely be a disaster. Amber, however, crafts a story that I had a hard time putting down because I wanted to see how things would go--both the cringy difficult moments as well as the super sweet ones. I enjoyed both Maia and Chris’s journeys. Maia’s loss of her sister looms large over her family--Maia, her parents and even the family dog haven’t figured out the way forward. Maia tries to learn more about here sister by looking through all of the photographs and the places in them. Carrying her sister’s camera nearly constantly has many in the small town thinking that she’s trying to become her sister. It’s even something she lets Chris believe--that she is a photographer and has been taking pictures even though the camera has no film. Chris’s family is also under stress. His coming out didn’t go well. Not only was he assaulted, but his mom hasn’t adjusted well and his dad seems to be overcompensating for that. He’s come to Aunt Isobel’s to figure out what he wants to do for the next school year, to give his parents time and to find himself--including getting back to running which he enjoyed so much before the attack. He also has to decide what he wants to share with Maia. Chris and Maia have a lot of internal dialogue and it works so well. There’s a lot for them to work out for themselves and it’s some of the most powerful parts of the book. Some of the lazy summer vibe plays into the romance between Chris and Maia. Amber writes their falling for each other in such a wonderful way. There’s a perfect build up as they learn more about each other--at the same time it’s complicated by big secrets. The moments of meltdown and tremendous emotional stregnth provide significant growth moments for them. The way Amber resolves all plots--Chris and Maia’s relationship as well as between them and their parents--were so well done. I loved the meaningful talks the teens had with their parents over the span of a few days. There was much to handle and, like the rest of the story, the pacing was perfect. Chris and Maia end up in a good place too as they prepare for another year of school. I’d love to see more of these two and how their story continues. Arctic Wild by Annabeth Albert. Reviewed by Will. Buttoned up east coast lawyer Ruben is forced to take a vacation by himself in the wilds of Alaska. Needless to say, the prospect doesn’t thrill him, until he meets Toby, his handsome bush pilot tour guide. Toby has dealt with tough customers like Ruben before, and soon enough they’re enjoying each other’s company while exploring Alaska – until an unexpected storm sends their plane crashing into the remote wilderness. After they’re rescued, Toby needs time to heal from his injuries. Rueben comes up with the plan that he’ll stay in Alaska for the summer, rent a house for himself and his teenage daughter and have Toby stay with them. Ruben can care for Toby, while Toby can come up with activities than Rueben can use to reconnect with his daughter, Amelia. Amelia is no cutesy romance novel kid, she’s realistically surly and constantly annoyed by her dad – but she gradually begins to enjoy her vacation, just as her dad is enjoying all the time spent with Toby. Love is definitely in the air for our two heroes, but both are unwilling to admit that it’s more than just a fling – primarily because they’re both stubborn in their own ways, as well as an unending number of outside obstacles to their happily ever after. Both of them have complicated family and work situations to deal with. After weeks of nighttime cuddles and furtive blowjobs, Toby’s injuries are finally healed enough that he and Ruben can sleep together, it’s magical – and then, as it must in all romance novels, the black moment arrives. A serious issue with Toby’s dad forces him to take a look at his obligations – he wants happiness with Ruben and Amelia, but that doesn’t seem possible. It takes some serious soul searching until Toby finally realizes that he can’t let a misguided sense of pride keep him from accepting help when needed. By the same token, Ruben can’t swoop in and solve everyone’s problems with his money and influence. As with the previous book in this series, the author takes the time to let the story breathe – giving the characters time to know and like one another, before falling in love with each other. This extra time spent on the story also gives readers a chance to know and understand the unique and complicated situation our heroes find themselves in, primarily concerning their obligations to their respective families. Annabeth Albert has written yet another winner with Arctic Wild, giving us a terrific romance featuring two dynamic and interesting heroes that readers are sure to root for.

It's the final week of Pride Month 2019. The guys wish everyone celebrating World Pride in NYC a wonderful time. Jeff talks about being homesick for New York and missing playing hockey. Pose's early season 3 renewal is praised. Will talks about the special Masterwork Experiment happening on The Story Grid Podcast where they are breaking down and analyzing the story structure of Annie Proulx's Brokeback Mountain. Jeff and author/blogger Lee Wind have an extended interview in which Lee discusses his debut YA novel, Queer as a Five Dollar Bill and how he's become engaged in discovering queer history. They also talk about the YA book blog I'm Here. I'm Queer. What the Hell Do I Read? that Lee began over a decade ago. Lee also recommends a couple of his favorite YA books and the queer history project he's trying to jump start on Instagram. Complete shownotes for episode 194 along with a transcript of the interview are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Interview Transcript - Lee Wind This transcript was made possible by our community on Patreon. You can get information on how to join them at patreon.com/biggayfictionpodcast. Jeff: Lee, welcome to the podcast. It is so great to have you here. Lee: Thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here, Jeff. Jeff: Now, I recently read your debut novel, "Queer as a Five-Dollar Bill". In fact, I reviewed it back in Episode 189. And absolutely love it. Now, tell people in your own words what this YA novel is about. Lee: So it's all about the fact that I don't have a time machine. When I went...in 2011, I went to a game in summer camp kind of weekend. And there was a guy talking about the letters that Abraham Lincoln wrote Joshua Fry Speed that convinced him that Abraham was in love with Joshua. And I just thought he was full of it. Like how could that have been possibly been true? It's the first time I heard about it. And I went to the library, and I got the letters and I read them and because the emotions Lincoln speaks about are the same emotions I experienced when I was closeted in dating girls and sort of judging it the right thing to do, but not feeling it, I had this moment of sort of goosebumps, and I was like, "Oh my gosh, I think maybe Lincoln was in love with speed." And I thought, "Oh, if I had a time machine and go back and tell my 15-year-old self that the guy on Mount Rushmore, the guy on the $5 bill, the guy on the penny, was maybe in love with another guy, I think it would have changed my whole life. I don't think it would have taken me until I was 25 years old to fully come out. I think it would have been a game changer. But I don't have a time machine. So "Queer as a Five-Dollar Bill" is my paying it forward. I'm a writer, I wanted to write the story about a 15-year-old who's closeted and bullied and dating a girl because he kind of judges it's the right thing to do, but he doesn't feel it. And then he's assigned a book report on Lincoln and he gets the same book that I got from the library, he reads the actual letter, where Lincoln is asking his best friend, after the best friend has gotten married to a woman, "Are you now, in feeling as well as judgment, glad you're married as you are? From anybody but me, this would be an impudent question not to be tolerated, but I know you'll tolerate it for me." And he ends the letter saying, "Please tell me quickly, I feel very impatient to know." And we don't have Joshua's answer, because Mary Todd burned all the letters on that side of the correspondence. But we do know it was only four weeks later that Abraham had married Mary. So to me, it felt like wow, that, like what would happen if a kid today found that out and decided that he wants the world to know? Because everyone loves Abraham Lincoln in our country. And he thought, "Well, okay, so if he tells - the main character, Wyatt - if he tells the whole world that Abraham Lincoln was in love with another guy, he thinks it's going to change how everyone feels about gay people, cue the songbirds and the rainbow and happy ending." I do think if in our culture today if someone was to go really viral with the information that Abraham Lincoln was, wrote these letters and was in love with Joshua Fry Speed, I think there would be a huge conservative backlash and media firestorm. And that's really that what I wanted to show in the novel, how this Wyatt, how Wyatt, this main character makes his way through this incredible maelstrom of fury that he's ignited by just sharing what actually is part of American history. And then to kind of ratchet the stakes up even further, I wanted to make it, like, how was it important for a teenager today? Why is Abraham Lincoln important? So I kind of situated him in Lincolnville, Oregon, a town I kind of made up. His parents own the Lincoln Slept Here Bed & Breakfast. And when the economy of the town kind of starts to tank and they're threatened with losing their business, they bring in a civil rights attorney to help and she has an openly gay son and sparks fly between the two teens. But the main character Wyatt can't do anything about it. Because gay kids saying Lincoln is gay is really different than a straight kid saying Lincoln is gay. And he's faced with his choice, does he follow his heart and see if something might be happening with this guy, Martin? But the cost of that is letting this secret fade back into history, and nothing will ever change in our world. Or does he sort of sacrifice himself and his own happiness, and persist with the story that Lincoln was indeed in love with another guy and see if he can change the world a little bit, even though it won't change for him? So that's the story of "Queer as a Five-Dollar Bill". Jeff: And I feel like even before I read this book that I had heard, you know, some of the rumblings that Lincoln may have had a relationship, may have been gay. So I think it kind of dances around the edge of what some people know, because I can't even begin to tell you where I heard it or anything else, just that it had been kind of back there somewhere in the memory of I don't know, something. Does that even make sense? Lee: Well, it's been a big thing on "Will & Grace", the revived series. They've been doing a whole run on jokes about Jack doing a one-man play called Gaybraham Lincoln, which is sort of all about Lincoln being gay, which I think has been good on the one hand, because it's letting more people know that this is something that people are talking about, but it's also doing so as if it's a farce, as if it's not true at all, and completely made up in a complete flight of fancy on the part of this bigger than life character. When in fact, if you read the letters, it is remarkable how to me it feels so clear that Lincoln was in love with Joshua. Jeff: What was your process for researching the history? Because there's more in here than just the letters themselves. There's a lot of Lincoln history, there's comparisons drawn between Lincoln and Martin Luther King Jr. In my review, you know, I kind of likened it a little bit, you know, you go see "Hamilton" and you get this big infusion of history, while you're wildly entertained. What was kind of your process around gathering all the pieces you needed? Lee: Well, first of all, thank you for comparing it to "Hamilton." That is like the best compliment ever. I need to embroider that on a pillow or something. I did a lot of research. I started out with the letters and then I realized that I just didn't know enough. I looked around and I live in Southern California. And it turns out in Redlands, California, there is an Abraham Lincoln Memorial shrine and museum. And it's like a three-room edifice that has display cases and a gift shop. And so many of the things that ended up being part of the bed and breakfast that Wyatt's parents own were kind of taken from that real-world experience of going to this place and seeing that they actually had, you know, civil war chess sets. And they had, you know, little teddy bears that were gray or blue. And they had, you know, Confederate Flag and a Union Flag. And that was hugely helpful. And then just starting to dig in deeper to some of the things I discovered there, there's a whole sort of subplot about how Wyatt feels that there's no one he can actually talk to. And so he's developed this strange internal dialogue with this image of a soldier in the background of one of their display cases. And I actually have a photo of it from when I went to this Lincoln shrine. And it was there, it was behind all these ammunitions. And I don't know that my gaydar works 150 some years later, but definitely, there's somebody in that, they're one of the soldiers in that photo does look like he could be gay. And I thought, "Wow, what if this was the only way that Wyatt felt that he could have somebody that recognized who he was, and how sad that was that he didn't really have a friend?" And that was why I was excited to create the character of Martin so he had somebody. Jeff: Were you a history buff all along? Lee: No, I hated history. And I'm sure that they're all these teachers that are like hitting their foreheads in shame right now. But like, honestly, I never had a history teacher that kind of got me excited about the stories of history, because I really feel like the way we teach history today, and my daughter's in 10th grade right now and her history textbook could have been my history textbook from the 1980s, where basically, it's the stories of rich, white, straight, cis-gendered, able-bodied men from Europe. And, you know, history is more than that. There are the stories of disabled people and people of color and women and men who loved men and women who loved women and people who looked outside gender boundaries in history. And I kind of feel like, we have to crack that facade of that false facade of history and let people know that that there's all this amazing light and you can see yourself in history. And, you know, Lincoln and Joshua are just sort of like the tip of the iceberg. There's, you know, Eleanor Roosevelt and Lorena Hickok, there's Mahatma Gandhi and his love for this German Jewish architect, Hermann Kallenbach. There's the pharaoh Hatshepsut in Egypt, there is Safa, there's so many stories that impact us today. But we don't really know them because they don't get taught, or when they are taught, they're not taught in a sort of, queer inclusive or respectful manner. So I kind of feel like now I love history. And in fact, I wrote this novel, but as I was writing the novel, there was so much history, there was so many things that came up, so many more pieces of evidence, so many more pieces of the pie, things that made me surprised, like, I didn't really know that Lincoln was sort of a racist, even though he's credited with freeing all the slaves, he had this whole plan that he signed off on with Congress at that time to sort of, you know, explore shipping all black people back to Africa. And I didn't know that. And the deeper I dug, when I found a piece of information that kind of contradicted what I knew, I really wanted to find a way to include it in the story. Because I feel like that's what we should be doing when we find things that show that history is complex, and that people are not black and white, that it just makes it all so much more real and so much more relatable. And if we can see reflections of ourselves in the past, like if we know that there were men who love men in the past, then we can believe that we have a place at the table today. And if we know that we have a place at the table today, we can envision a future that is sort of limitless. And I want that for everyone that doesn't feel like their history is included. I want it for all the women and all the people of color and the disabled people and the women who love women and the people who lived outside gender boundaries, too. Because that's, you know, we call it LGBTQAI+ or QUILTBAG or whatever. But really, the job is about being an ally to other people. And me as a gay man, I have to think, "Well, how can I be an ally to everybody else?" And hopefully, they're thinking the same thing. And that's how we start to create societal change. Jeff:: That is wildly profound. And especially, given that this episode of the podcast is dropping in the last week of June, as you know, the queer community celebrates Stonewall 50. Lee: Oh, yeah. Well, you know, I love that we're celebrating Stonewall, I love that the gender non-conforming people that were there, the transgender people, the drag queens are getting some respect now that they were part of that and they were in fact, the leaders of standing up to the police finally. But for many, many years, Stonewall had a banner, the Stonewall Inn had a banner outside that read "Where Pride Began". And I think that's really misleading. And we talk in the queer community in America as if that's where pride began, right. Like, pride, "Hey, we're celebrating 50 years of Stonewall, Hooray." But wait a minute, Karl-Maria Kertbeny came up with the word homosexual 100 years before Stonewall. Right? Like Lincoln and Speed were writing these letters to each other 20 years before that. You know, you can go back thousands and thousands of years and there's this beautiful story from China before China was unified, where the State of Wey that the guy that ruled it, his name was Duke Ling and he had a guy he loved his name is Mizi Xia. And they were walking through the orchard one day and Mizi Xia picks a peach off a tree and starts to eat it. And halfway through, he stops because it's so delicious. He wants to share it and he gives the half eaten peach to the Duke and the Duke makes a really big deal out of it. Like, "I can't believe your love for me is so profound that you would sacrifice your own happiness to give me the peach." And something about that moment captured the imagination of people in that pre-unified China. And for over 1,000 years, the way in Chinese that they said gay love was love of the half-eaten peach. Like we have this amazing, amazing history. And we just need to kind of breakthrough that facade and let all this amazing rainbow light shine through. So that's kind of what I feel my mission is to kind of let people know that we have all this amazing history, and we can start to dive into it. Jeff: Is this all history? Because you mentioned earlier that you're not, you weren't a history buff and you hated history. Have you gathered up all of this new knowledge since you were researching to write "Queer as Five-Dollar Bill"? Lee: Yeah. So while I was writing "Queer as a Five-Dollar Bill," like I mentioned, there was just so much stuff that came up, so much evidence that I was like, "I can't really cram all this into a novel, because at the end of the day, the novel is really about a kid today." And I didn't want it to feel like a historical novel. I wanted it to be this page-turner. So I realized that maybe it was two books, maybe there was the novel. But what if there's a nonfiction book as well that presents the primary source materials, like a popup video thing on MTV or VH1, whatever it was, helps interpret, or at least how I interpret the thing? So like, there's all this talk about Shakespeare's Sonnets, and how, while they're very rarely taught, over 100 of the sonnets, Shakespeare wrote to another guy. And these are love sonnets that include really, really famous lines that we all recognize, like, "Shall I compare thee to a summer's day. Thou art more worthy, yet more temperate." That's a line that Shakespeare wrote to another guy. For hundreds of years, they had changed the pronouns of that in one of the folios. So it ended up being that for hundreds of years, people thought that Shakespeare wrote all those poems to a woman, to the Dark Lady. But when "The Riverside Shakespeare" came out, the editor of that section, he talked about how, "Well, we've restored the sonnets to their original, you know, pronouns, but you shouldn't mistake that, you know, the affection men felt for each other in the 1500s was nothing like the homosexual attraction today." He wrote this in 1970s. And I'm like, "Really? Really?" Because, you know, "A man in hue all hues in his controlling, Which steals men's eyes and women's souls amazeth," it sounds pretty romantic to me. So what I realized what I wanted to do is to create a book that wouldn't be just a book about Lincoln and Speed, but it would be a book about the broader thing, about men who love men and women who love women and people who lived outside gender boundaries. So there's 15 chapters. One is about Lincoln and Speed, one is about Shakespeare. And then there's, like, you know, a bunch of other amazing people in history, and it really presents the primary source material. And I'm really excited because today - that we're recording this - is the day that I'm signing the contract for that book with a publisher. Jeff: Oh, that is exciting. Congratulations. Lee: Thank you. It's been a long journey, long and crazy journey. Because the book originally was set up at one of the big five publishers, and I worked on it for a year and a half with them. It was approved, we were talking cover design. And then two weeks after our current president was elected, they canceled the book. I think they were concerned that it was going to be too controversial. They just didn't have the courage to proceed. And that was really devastating. And it took a long time to find a new home for it. There were a lot of shenanigans, a lot of plot twists. The agent I had had at the time turned out to be a criminal who, well, she was telling all her clients she was submitting things and that they were having all these pending book deals. She was lying. And the book was never submitted anywhere. Even after it was returned, the rights were returned to me. And the novel, "Queer as a Five-Dollar Bill" ended up getting crowdfunded because I thought that I was being, well, stonewalled by the children's book industry and they didn't want word to get out about Lincoln and Speed so much so that no one would even respond to the submissions. So I crowdfunded it. I have a blog, I think we're talking about that a little bit later. But I have a bunch of people that know who I am and what I was trying to do, and they all supported me to not just publish the book professionally, but also, what I wanted to do is raise enough money to donate at least 400 copies of the novel to LGBTQ and allied teens, and the Kickstarter funded in six days, it was amazing. And then it went on for another 24 days. So we ultimately raised enough money to give away 910 copies. So that's been really, really gratifying. Jeff: That's incredible. I mean, it's really one of the great things about publishing today is that there's really no more gatekeepers out there. Anybody can publish, get it on Amazon, get an audiobook done, etc, and get their messages out there. Lee: There still is the thing, though, that being with a traditional publisher, you generally can reach more, especially when we're talking about like middle grade, you know, or books, where you go into libraries, which I think that this nonfiction book really is a, you know, hopefully, it'll sell like hotcakes. But also, I do think that to get it adopted more broadly into schools and into libraries, I think that coming from an established publisher is really useful and really helpful. So I'm excited about that. I do think that yeah, that there are many, many fewer boundaries than there used to be - or barriers than there used to be. But at the same time, we have the additional challenge that while access to the marketplace has never been easier, the marketplace has never been bigger. So getting noticed in a marketplace, where there's over a million books that are published every year now in the U.S., is a challenge. And that's why it's so important to have safe places to find out about these things, like your podcast, and my blog. Jeff: Yes, absolutely. To spin back on "Five-Dollar Bill" a little bit and talk a little bit more about it. What were your inspirations for both Wyatt and Martin and the type of teenagers they would be? Lee: When I was growing up, or when I was coming out, I think it felt like you couldn't be gay if you lived anywhere except for one of the big cities like San Francisco or New York. And I really wanted to have a character that felt connected to nature. And that one of the thematic subplots would be, 'Could he be himself where he was? Could he be himself in small town America, in a rural community, was there a way through for him to be successfully himself and authentic?' I feel like I spent so much of my life being inauthentic, that I want to do everything I can to help teens be authentic now. So on the one hand, Wyatt was the study of a kid that was on a journey to be authentic and Martin was the flip side of that. Martin was the character that already was authentic, and was already reaping the benefits of that level of confidence. And you know, as soon as you, for me, when I came out, it was like this huge burden off of me. And suddenly, I realized the weight of it was on everyone else, right? Like, if they had a problem with it, that was their problem. But it wasn't me hiding or holding back, or pretending or acting, which I did for so long. My husband and I have a joke, where when you go to a Starbucks or something, they're always like, "What's your name?" And every time my husband changes his name. Like he just makes up different names every single time. And they ask me and I'm always Lee because it took me 25 years to even start to like myself and to accept myself. And I finally got here. And I'm like, "Yeah, I'm not anybody else. I am me. I am Lee." It's funny. I take a spin class and as a motivational thing the spin instructor does, "Who do you want to be today?" I'm always like, "Me, I want to be me." I spent so long being other people. And then also, it was really cool when I was creating Martin's character, to think about him being African American. And that being an opportunity for me to talk about the complexity of Abraham Lincoln and him not being so perfect and explore those themes a little more. And it's funny because I hear from a lot of people how much they love Martin. And yeah, he's pretty lovable. Jeff: Yeah, I really liked them both in their individual ways. For sure Wyatt...I grew up, I spent like middle school, high school, college in Alabama. So I could totally relate to where Wyatt was in his journey like he knows, but there's no way he's telling anybody. And I didn't have a Martin for a best friend. So I also loved Martin, because he was the ideal friend to have for Wyatt in the moment to show him what could be. Lee: Yeah, exactly. Jeff: What do you hope the audience takes away from this kind of history/fiction mashup? Lee: So I think a lot about words, you know, being a writer, and I think that the word homosexual isn't helping us. I think that if we, because we're so reactive and weird in our culture, in America about sex, and we are obsessed with it, and we don't want to acknowledge it. And especially we don't want to talk about it to teens. So when we talk about homosexual rights and homosexual history, all straight people are hearing, you know, to paint with a broad brush, is they're thinking about sex and that we have sex differently than they do and how do we have sex. And I just don't think that's particularly helpful. And I think that if we talked about love as sort of the binding element that makes me and my husband and our teenage daughter a family, or the love between you and your husband, if we talked about HomoLOVEual rights and HomoLOVEual history, I think we'd have a very different cultural conversation. So what the tagline of my book is, "What if you knew a secret from history that could change the world?" And I love this because it gets a little meta. But it's the challenge that Wyatt faces, right? He finds out the secret about Abraham Lincoln writing these letters and maybe being in love with Joshua Fry Speed. And he decides that he's going to tell the world because it could change the world. And then it's the same challenge that I faced because I knew the secret from history and I thought this drumming sense of responsibility, like I had to share it, I had to get it out in the world. And because I wasn't getting anywhere with traditional publishing, I thought, "Okay, well, I'm going to crowdfund it, I'm going to get it out in the world, myself." And then what I am really excited about is that it's also the challenge that the reader faces. Because when you've read the book, or you even heard me talk about the book, you know that there is something more to the story of Abraham Lincoln that has been taught to you. And it's that first crack in that facade of history. And it makes you think, "Well, wait a minute, when you see the picture of Mount Rushmore, or when you pick your kid up at the Lincoln middle school, or you're driving on Lincoln Boulevard, you know, does it occur to you that, you know, our culture has not shared that part of who Lincoln is? And does it make you feel a little more pride about the fact that you know what, we do have history, queer people, and we need to lean into it? And we have the opportunity to because there are hundreds of years of historians that are going to argue with us and that are going to say, "Yeah, yeah, it's not true. It was very typical for men to share beds on the frontier." Not that Springfield, Illinois was the frontier. But for four years, you know, Abraham and Joshua shared a bed long after Abraham could afford his own bed. "Well, it was cold." Okay, yeah. But they shared a bed for four years. It's not proof. But it's interesting. And I think that as all those things add up, we can all make our own determination of what we think, you know. Is it important for me that I convince the world that Abraham Lincoln was in love with Joshua Fry Speed? No. I think a lot about Anne Lamott, she's a writer, and she writes about writing. She has a beautiful book called "Bird by Bird". And in that book, she talks about lighthouses, and how they don't run all over an island looking for boats to save, they just sort of stand there and they shine. And I think a lot about that. Like, I need to be a lighthouse. Like I found out this amazing, cool stuff about history, and how it relates to today, and how empowering it is. And I just want to shine. And if people are interested, they can come closer to the light. And if they're not interested, no worries, you know, watch out, there's some rocks over there. Jeff: Any chance of a sequel? Because I know I would love to see more of Wyatt and Martin at some point Lee: I haven't really come up with a good angle on a sequel, I had this funny idea for...one of the other pieces of history that really struck me was Mahatma Gandhi and the story of his love for Hermann Kallenbach. And we talk a lot about Gandhi having this sort of breakthrough where he talked about it doesn't matter whether you pray facing left and I pray facing right - I may have that reversed. We're all praying to the same God. Like he had this huge breakthrough, not just in terms of, you know, a peaceful protest, Satyagraha. He changed our world in such profound ways. And at the same time, he was in love with this German Jewish architect named Hermann Kallenbach. And if he was in love with a Jewish guy, like that's actually really interesting and really germane. Like maybe that's why he had that inspiration, that insight about it doesn't matter who you're praying to, because it's, we're all sort of bonded by this sense of spiritual connection. Like, that's really exciting. And I feel like there's so many stories like that, like Eleanor Roosevelt and Lorena Hickok. Eleanor Roosevelt was the woman that after, you know, her husband died, she went to the UN and became this advocate for the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And would she had done that if she didn't have this experience of being in love with another woman, and feeling that sort of outsider status, while at the same time being this empowered woman in our world? History starts to open up like a flower. So I don't have an exact idea for a sequel for Wyatt and Martin, but I will put it in the hopper as ideas. Reason I brought up Hermann Kallenbach and Mahatma Gandhi was that I thought, that would be an interesting thing to talk about a kid finding out about that, and how that would have changed their life. And then about, "Wait, that's the exact same story over again, I don't need to do that. I already wrote that." So for now, I'm going to focus on the nonfiction piece and some other fiction writing that I want to get to that, actually, I'm very inspired by your book too, by the "Codename: Winger" series, because I love the idea of mashing up a gay teen with a sort of spy thriller. Jeff: And I can't wait to read what you might do with that. So please, bring that to the marketplace. Lee: Thank you. I keep thinking, "Is there a way I can get gay history in here somehow?" I haven't figured that either yet. But, you know, I'll work on it. Jeff: You'd mentioned earlier that you've got your blog, which I was so excited to find right around the same time as finding the book. You've been a YA blogger for more than a decade now. I believe you said it'll be 12 years in September. And the blog is called "I'm Here. I'm Queer. What the Hell do I Read?" What led you to starting that? Lee: Thanks. Yeah, there was no safe space to find out what were the books with queer characters for kids and teens. And I remember, there was a review on Amazon for a really sweet picture book called "The Family Book" by Todd Parr. And it's sort of a cartoon-y book. And there's like one page, it says, "Some families look alike." And it's a bunch of dogs that they all have similar features. "Some families look different." And it's a tree with all these different kind of animals in it. "Some families adopt children." And it's a bunch of ducks. And on the back of one duck is a penguin. And then you turn the page and it's, "Some families have two moms or two dads." And it's a picture of two women and two men. And then it continues, and there was a review, pretty high up that said, "If you tear out the page with the two moms and dads, then this is a lovely book on diversity." And I thought, "Wow, way to miss the entire point of what diversity is." And I got so upset and so hurt, you know, because I'm a gay dad. And I thought this was an amazing book for my daughter, but also for all of my daughter's classmates to see and recognize, "Yeah, yeah, you know, some families do have two moms and two dads." And to Amazon, that wasn't hate speech, it didn't violate their terms of service, it was just somebody's opinion. Albeit kind of, you know, nasty, or at least I interpreted as nasty. And it got me thinking about how there really needed to be a safe place online, where a kid could go and find out what are the books that were out there. And when I started, there were maybe 30 books total that were inclusive of LGBTQ characters and themes for kids and teens. And what's happened over the years is that by keeping this curated safe space, where I'm not vetting all the books, but I'm making sure that no nastiness is happening on the site. We have over 500 books now in many, many categories. And it's been really exciting to see that sort of explosion of content. And yet, it's that sort of similar problem again. Like now, suddenly, there's so much content, how do you make your way through it? How do you find the things that you want? So the idea behind it was to post about the books, what's queer about the books, and then let readers add their own reviews. There hasn't been a lot of review, there's just too many places for people to leave reviews these days. So I don't see a lot of that. But I also didn't want to make it, you know, "Lee's favorite book site" because I think that that has a limited value, I thought that there was more value in it being a site that felt really comprehensive. And that's what I aim for. And then it just became a place where I could talk about the stuff that I really care about, that I want queer and allied teens to know about. And over the years, what I've discovered is that the readership is split into thirds. There's about a third, queer teens and queer and allied teens on it. There about a third of librarians and teachers and people that work with LGBTQ teens. And then there's a whole bunch of adults that are sort of reading the books for themselves and sort of healing their inner teen. And I think that there is a healing that happens. Every time I read a queer book that has a happy or even a hopeful ending, there's a healing that happens. And I think maybe that's part of why romance as a genre is so popular. I know Will was saying in a previous episode that people get on his case for like ruining the ending, but it's all romance, you know it's going to be a good ending. And I think maybe that's why people turn to it. So I know how empowering it is for me when I read something where I see a reflection of myself, and it's a positive thing. Because when I was growing up, there was nothing to read, nothing positive. The only queer characters were like evil pedophile villains, it wasn't particularly helpful. Jeff: Yeah, that's, unfortunately, the case in the history that you and I have from that era when we were growing up. In the decade-plus that you've been running the site, other than just more YA, how have you seen it all evolve? Lee: There's more, and there's better and there's deeper, and there's less preachy and there's room for it all. It's funny, there was a kind of push a few years back for...well, maybe we're beyond the coming out story. And I kind of got my dander up a little bit on that. And I felt like, "Well, we're never going to be beyond the first love story when it's, you know, a straight romance. So, Andrew Solomon has this great book that he wrote called "Far From the Tree" and it's a nonfiction piece. And he talks about how, you know, when your identity is...where you're the apple that does fall far from the tree, or falls from the tree and rolls across the, you know, down the hill and across the orchard, when you're queer, most likely your parents were not. And so you have this moment where you have to find your sense of community outside of the family that you grew up in. A lot of other identities, you share that. Like, usually, like me, I was raised Jewish and so I would, you know, my parents were Jewish. So I sort of shared that identity. For all of our identities, we sort of are either sort of close to the tree or far from the tree. And when you're far from the tree, there's more work involved. So coming out, I think is going to continue to be this universal thing. Because just like, you know, my daughter has two dads, but she's straight. So in a funny way, she's going to have to, you know, she had a bit of a coming out where she had to tell us, sort of, you know, abashed, hoping that we'd be okay with it, that she was straight. And we had a good laugh about it. Because it's not that big a deal for us. We just want her to be her authentic self and to be happy. So we do want to have coming out books, and we also want to have books where being gay, like your character Winger, Theo, where it's the least interesting thing about him. I loved when you said that in your interview. Because yeah, we want those stories, too. It's like in acting, right? In improv, the rule is yes/and. So we want these books, and we want those books. We want the fantasy, we want the romance, we want the science fiction, we want all of it because truly, if you look at the numbers of books that are published - traditionally there about 5,000 books published a year for kids and teens. And then, if you look at the world of self-publishing, let's say that 5,000 are doing it really beautifully. And the books are indistinguishable with the quality of that from traditional publishing. That's 10,000 books a year, a year. And you have all those years going back too. So what we want is the opportunity to sort of have all of those books and right now we still only have like 500. So we have a long way to go. We need lots more books, we need lots more voices, we need people writing their own voices, stories, we need more diversity included in everybody's stories because truly, you're not going to have a classroom today that doesn't include someone that's LGBTQ, we need it all. Jeff: That's very true. Given that you had the blog, did you always see yourself eventually writing the YA novel that you did? Or did that just kind of manifest itself because you have the story to tell? Lee: I've always been a writer. I've written...I remember one summer when I was like between 9th and 10th Grade in high school, I was like, "I'm going to write a novel." I sometimes think of those poor characters still trapped in the broken space station that was orbiting the Earth. And I'm like, "Oh man, I have to do something with that someday." I don't think I will. I've always written. I think that for the last 14 years, I've really focused on writing for kids and teens. I also write picture books and middle grade. And when I found out this thing about Lincoln and Speed, it really inspired me to focus on writing that as a novel. I think that the blog has been a way to have my voice heard in a more direct way, and not wait for somebody to tap me on the shoulder and say, "Okay Lee, we're ready for what you have to share." So that's been really empowering. I remember, when I started the blog, there were very few people reading it, and I would get all excited, I'd be like, and I'd tell my husband, "Hey, 15, people went to my blog today." And I was so, so excited. And now, all these years later, we passed 2.6 million page loads. I get between, you know, 15,000 to 25,000 page views a month. It's remarkable, and humbling, and also a really cool responsibility to continue to maintain this safe place. And at the same time, I'm trying to keep writing and work on the new stuff, which has been really a good thing, because balancing the day job and the blogging, there's a lot but I have stories I want to tell. And I'm going to keep trying to tell them. Jeff: Good. Yeah, keep putting it out there. Because we always need more, to be sure. For people who haven't seen the site yet, and we're certainly going to link to it in the show notes. It has an amazing hero image across the top of the superhero. Where did that come from? And where did the name come from? For folks who might question the name too, because I have a pretty good idea where the name came from. But let's hear it from you. Lee: Sure. So "I'm Here. I'm Queer. What the Hell do I read?" is a play on words of something we chanted in Act Up in the '80s and '90s. The chant was "We're here. We're queer. Get used to it." And I thought, well, my issue is a little more "What the hell do I read?" Because I felt so starved for any books that included somebody like me. I mean, you know, I grew up and I really and truly thought I was the only person in the world that felt the way I felt about other guys. And which was super ironic, because I have an older brother, who's five and a half years older, and he's gay too, but we never spoke about it. We are the children of immigrants and when my parents came from Israel, they sort of brought all their homophobia with them. And the American culture at the time was super homophobic, especially where we lived outside Philadelphia. It was not a safe place. And it's so amazing to think that you can grow up and feel like you're the only person and everything I read, I was obsessed with the series by Anne McCaffrey called the Dragonrider series. And there was this super between the lines, sort of thematic thing that you could maybe interpret that there was gay stuff happening in that world, but you had to really stretch for it. And looking back, I think, well, maybe that's why I was so obsessed with that book, with that series, because there was some faint, not even mirror reflection, but like the gleam of a tarnished piece of silverware. I was like, "Wait, wait, maybe that's me." So that's where "I'm Here. I'm Queer. What the Hell do I read?" came from. The image happened a few years later. I had been running the site for about two years, it had been doing really well. And I realized I wanted to have a customized image. And yet, it's a pretty wordy title. So I realized I needed an image that didn't have any additional words to it. So I contacted someone I knew, an artist I knew, Jim DeBartolo. And, I said, "Look, I need an image that says empowerment." And he came up with this sort of superhero moment of like ripping the denim shirt off. And there's this sort of T-shirt underneath with the sort of superhero logo, which is the website, which is leewind.org. And it was funny. We tried to play with the sort of partial face that you see, we tried to, you know, could we make it a person of color? Could we do some things with you, know, the physique? But ultimately, it was sort of an avatar of me, and it took me years to admit it that's sort of what of course it is, it's an avatar of me, but I don't have that good a jawline. But at least in my mind, I think that it's been this sort of symbol of empowerment. And that's really what I hope that people get from visiting the site, from reading anything I write. I want them to feel empowered. Jeff: I like that. That's a great story behind that. Lee: Thanks. Jeff: So relying on your...I'm going to call it a YA expertise because of the site that you run. What are three or four titles of current YA that you would recommend our audience to take a stab at? Lee: Sure. So I have to start with "Carry On" by Rainbow Rowell. I know it's not super recent. But this is the gay Harry Potter book that I wanted so badly. And I was so frustrated that JK Rowling didn't include Dumbledore as being gay in the canon. It sort of was outside the books that that revelation happened and you can go back and sort of, you know, read subtexts and stuff. But I really was hoping that there would be some sort of, you know, on the page, queer love or something, and it didn't happen, there was really nothing. And, you know, Rainbow Rowell, she wrote two books, one about the girl that writes the fan fiction, which is called "Fangirl", which is really good. And then there was this book, which was the fan fiction, that ended up being a huge success on its own, called "Carry On". And I don't want to say too much, but it is absolutely brilliant. And if you are queer, or love queer stories, and you had any connection to Harry Potter, and that sort of world of magic, you've got to go read this. It's just wonderful. Jeff: Excellent. Her books have been on my TBR forever. And I actually need to take the leap and read them. Lee: Read this one first. It's just you will be so happy you did. Jeff: So you mentioned the nonfiction that you've just signed the contract on and other stuff noodling around in your head... anything else you want to shout out that's coming up soon for you? Lee: So there are a bunch of things percolating. But nothing has come to full boil yet. So I will let you all know when it does. Jeff: That is fair. I can't wait to hear what they are. Because I think that, yeah, having read the one book from you, I'm looking forward to reading so much more. So where can people keep up with you? There's leewind.org as we talked about, which is the "I'm Here. I'm Queer. What the Hell do I read?" site. Anyplace else people should be looking for updates? Lee: Yeah. I mean, I'm playing around with Instagram. I'm trying to do this thing. I had the idea that we could do a #queerhistoryiseverywhere. And I wanted people to upload photos of Abraham Lincoln or the word Lincoln wherever they saw it and just start posting it on Instagram. It hasn't exactly caught on yet. But I still like that idea. Jeff: Maybe our podcast listeners will play along with that. Lee: Oh, yeah, that would be really fun. And also, I mean, as, you know, more queer history happens. I was speaking at the Bay Area Book Festival recently and someone came up after my panel and they said, "Did you know that Bābur from the Bāburnāma when he was a teen he was in love with another boy?" I was like, "Really?" Totally, I have sitting on my desk right next to me right now the "Bāburnāma" and indeed, when he was 18, he was in love with this other boy. And it's so exciting to find out this stuff. So I feel like because it's been hidden, the more we can crowdsource this information and share it and then all amplify each other. I think it's very, very exciting. Jeff: Very cool. So we will link to all that stuff, the books we talked about - everything else - in our show notes. And Lee, I'm so glad we got the opportunity to talk, spread the word a little bit more about this book and the website and thank you for all you're doing to get more out there about YA literature too. Lee: Thank you, Jeff. I really want to say thank you to you and to Will. I'm really a fan of the podcast and getting to be on it as a real thrill. So thanks.

Jeff opens the show talking about the work he's doing on the manuscript for the Hat Trick re-release. New patron Lucy is welcomed. The guys talk about Tales of the City on Netflix and the new season of Pose on FX. Will reviews Anticipating Disaster by Silvia Violet while Jeff reviews Prince of Killers (Fog City #1) by Layla Reyne. Jeff interviews Layla Reyne about the new Fog City series as well as how it felt wrapping up the Trouble Brewing series earlier this year. They also talk about Layla's RITA nominated book, Relay, and the upcoming fall release, Dine with Me. Complete shownotes for episode 193 along with a transcript of the interview are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Interview Transcript – Layla Reyne This transcript was made possible by our community on Patreon. You can get information on how to join them at patreon.com/biggayfictionpodcast. Jeff: Welcome Layla back to the podcast. It’s great to have you here. Layla: Thank you for having me back. Jeff: I had to have you back to talk about this new series, “Prince Of Killers,” as listeners will have heard right before this interview, blew my mind to pieces and back. Layla: That’s what I wanna hear. Jeff: Tell everybody what this new series is and in particular what they have to look forward to in “Prince Of Killers.” Layla: Sure. So the series is “Fog City.” It’s set here in San Francisco. It’s a new romance suspense series. You don’t need to have read any of my series before that. I won’t say that there aren’t some Easter eggs for those that have, because we are all existing in the same place and time. But, this is a little different because this is following a family of assassins. So in books one to three of the “Fog City” trilogy, starting with “Prince of killers,” you’ve got Hawes Madigan, who runs a cold storage business by day, a very successful family kind of business in the city. And then by night, the families, they’re assassins. And he and his two siblings, Helena and Holt, are kind of the triumvirate that is currently the heir apparent. He’s the heir apparent and they kind of all run it together. His grandfather is ailing and so that’s kind of the setup and fairly successfully he is making some changes in the organization. And so in comes…in the first scene, which is actually set at one of my favorite restaurants in the city, Gary Danko, walks Dante Perry who kind of has this strut about him, you know, long hair, looks like a rock God. But he’s carrying a gun, which he immediately notices, Hawes does, and Perry tells him, “There is someone trying to kill you.” And Hawes kind of laughs it off to start with because, dude, he runs an organization of assassins. That’s what they’re paid for. But then as Hawes and the family come to learn, it does look like someone is trying to stage a palace coup, so to speak. And so “Prince Of Killers” involves sort of the first stages of that and them trying to figure out who it is. And Dante has his own motivations as well. You know, he is trying to find the killer of someone who was close to him and Hawes doesn’t want him to find out who that is either. So I will leave it at that without spoiling too much. Jeff: Let’s talk about the elephant in the room a little bit, and that is the fact that while you have left, for example, the books of the Whiskeyverse on some subtle cliff hangers, this one’s bigger than normal for you. Layla: Yeah, I’m not hiding anything, guys. This one’s got a cliffhanger. I wouldn’t say anyone’s life is in jeopardy, but it’s definitely a cliffhanger. I have made no bones about that “The Usual Suspect” is one of my favorite movies. So hello. And, you know, I grew up in TV land and so I love cliffhangers and I kind of embrace it with this. And, you know, the good thing is the plan is for all the books to be out this year. All the covers are done. By the time this airs, book two will be in the hands of editors and I should be working on book three by then. So, they will all come this year and it’s in the blurb. So you know, everybody, fair warning. I’m not trying to hide it here. So… Jeff: Yeah. And I love how you make the analogy to TV because I would put the cliffhanger that you did on the level of like the mid-season break. Not quite the end of season break, but that mid-season, it’s Christmastime, we’re gonna go away for a while and we’ll have a big thing when we come back. Layla: That’s right. It’s the end of November sweeps. Jeff: Exactly. Layla: That’s where we’re at, not gonna lie. And then book two picks up right where it ended and goes on in there. Jeff: Yeah. Which I’m super looking forward to. Layla: I’m writing. It’s been a…It’s fun and, you know, I can’t…yeah, I can’t spoil anything. Jeff: Yeah. Don’t say anything else. I don’t wanna know. I don’t want the listeners to know. Layla: Okay. Okay. Jeff: What was the inspiration for “Fog City” overall? Because since you’ve gone with this family of assassins, it’s certainly different from what we’re used to in the Whiskeyverse where you’ve got all the, you know, FBI agents and other kinds of, you know, law enforcement as your main characters. Layla: So ironically, I was wandering through Wander Aguiar’s photography website looking for covers for a different project and I saw this picture of what will be the book three cover. And I had to know what the hell is their story. I mean it just jumped at me and I was like, I have to know the story. And then one of my good writer friends, Allison Temple said, “You can’t buy the pictures until you have a story.” She’s like, “Do not spend the money.” So by the end of the weekend, I had the story. I had all three of them and then I was like, “Okay, so let me piece together the three covers.” And so that’s kind of how it, in its original, came about, you know, thinking about doing it. So art really did inspire art in this case because the photos were just amazing. I wanted to branch out and do a little bit of something different. There have been hints of the people in the gray area, you know, Jamie, good guy, but some of that hacking is not exactly on the up and up. Mel, I think we saw go more and more, you know, in her bounty hunter business and be a little bit more flexible once she left the FBI. And so kind of going from there and wanting to play more in that gray area and having read books too, L.J. Hayward’s “Death And The Devil” series, in particular, you know, it’s fun and it’s to some extent pretty liberating. I don’t think it was…it wasn’t harder. There are less rules. Right? I don’t have to check the FBI’s hierarchy chart every day to make sure I’m naming someone the right position. So in that regard, it’s actually been a bit easier. Jeff: Your shades of gray is 100% right because it’s not a spoiler to say that Hawes, not only did he have the legit business on the side, but he’s even trying to modify the ways that the family does the assassin business to make it, I guess, less bad maybe. Layla: Yeah. So, there’s an event that happened three years ago that kind of drives a lot of the series and when you read you’ll find out what that is and to the extent it drives Hawes’ three rules, which are in the blurb, which is no indiscriminate killing, no collateral damage, and no unvetted targets. So, if they’re not…He is turning the organization away from kind of the killing machine that his grandfather, Papa Cal, was. And his parents were very methodical, very efficient, not a whole lot of emotion in it. And so, he’s trying to find the balance between those two of it being, you know, I don’t wanna say the killer with a heart of gold, but he is a killer with a conscience. And so he doesn’t even like the moniker Prince of Killers and what that stands and how it came about, which you’ll read about in the book as well. So, he’s definitely a great character. And then when you look at the broader picture of everyone in the series, Holt is, you know, this…he has a kid and he is, first and foremost, a father, right? And he is a hacker and he, because of where he’s at in his life, has pulled back to being kind of the digital assassin of the bunch. And then Helena, who is the sister, who is my typical female complete badass, love her, she works for…she does a criminal defense work in her day job where she is actually working for people who are wrongfully accused. And so there’s some shades of gray in her as well. And then even one of the other side characters is the chief of police who has an interesting relationship with the Madigans and he knows that there is some benefit to what they do and you’re gonna find out there’s some backstory with him as well as to where he is. So, there’s a reference to him in…If you’ve read “Trouble Brewing,” there’s a reference to him in “Noble Hops.” It’s the same chief, for those who are watching, that read that. So… Jeff: That was one of the Easter eggs that I missed. Because you and I have talked about the Easter eggs and there was some that I caught it and some was like, “Dang it.” Layla: So that’s one of…he’s the new chief, you know, that’s a little bit more flexible in the way things are done. And so everybody…and then Dante is also, you know, playing in his shades of gray as a PI and how far he’s willing to go and what he’s doing personally and professionally. Like where’s that line for him? Jeff: Helena is the one that I found the most interesting in her shades of gray because here’s an officer of the court who occasionally does some, you know, very illegal things, which isn’t to say that, you know, all lawyers are, you know, on the right side of the law. But for her, it seemed like really… Layla: Right. And she makes a line about balancing out her karma, right? That’s kind of how she approaches it to some extent of, you know, part of what they’re doing and why he…particularly Helena and Hawes are so well aligned like that, you know, Hawes wants the contracts of the people the law can’t reach or that escape the law, you know, who get around it, let’s just say, because of who they know or who they pay. And that’s kind of who their targets…that’s the targets he wants. People that have, you know, skirted justice for nefarious reasons. And her day job is the people who justice has wrongfully done. And so they kind of work hand in hand and her feeling on it plays to both of her careers. Jeff: You mentioned in this book you had less rules, so like, you’re not looking upon the FBI flow chart and things. Were there challenges to coming at these characters who had these shades of gray or was it…”free for all” is a little bit much, but certainly more freeing I guess. Layla: Yeah, certainly challenges. Though, I mean, you still have to balance the fact that, “Hey, they’re killing people.” Right? And how you balance that with their conscience, with the people around them, particularly Kane, who was the police chief, has a lot to deal with and going on kind of. So yeah, I mean it is definitely there. There were different challenges for me, I kind of liked it because I got to go a little bit more, even though it’s a shorter book than usual, I think going into their heads more than I typically would because there’s a lot more internal conflict – while still having tons of external conflict. I felt like there was more internal conflict about what they’re actually doing than, you know, being an FBI agent and knowing you’re on the right side of the law. So this was more…they had to kind of walk that line, particularly Hawes. Jeff: One of the things I like most about the book that is…in a lot of ways, it’s separate from the romance and it’s separate from the suspense element a lot is the family unit. And it’s a recurring theme, at least in the books that I’ve read of yours from, you know, Irish And Whiskey and their families. And then what we see of the families in “Trouble Brewing” of the main characters. And here I really feel like maybe it’s because we’re so much closer to the family that we really, even in the shorter book, get a lot about Hawes and Holt and Helena and their interaction with each other. What was your plan as you like populated this family and the characters that you wanted to put on the page? Layla: So, it kind of, I would say, came about organically to an extent. The first scene I wrote like that weekend when I saw the pictures, I wrote it and then I posted it in my little reader group’s like, “I hate you.” And in that first scene, actually there’s a reference to the siblings, but you actually don’t see them, but then they pop up. And part of it too was I had already found their pictures as well. I kind of knew who they all were, but, I also knew who we needed to do X, Y, and Z from a plot standpoint. I also didn’t want Hawes to be an island to himself. Right? And to some extent, giving the life that he lives. And, you know, the two aspects of his life, that family is gonna be the only…like they can’t really let anyone else get close. Right? And so, they’re so tight with the family. That’s the only people they trust. And so, that’s, I think, particularly why, you know, that’s who he debriefs with. That’s who they’re planning with and everything because that’s kind of it. And then, sort of, you have in that expanded family, you also have Holt’s wife, Amilia, and you have the grandmother, Papa Cal’s wife, and like that’s the tight-knit crew. And it has been that way for that family for three generations. And that’s kind of what you find out is that, this is what they do. And because of that, they have to keep it close to the vest and the families who they trust. Jeff: But even through that, you’ve got Helena pushing on Hawes to make the connection to find somebody. Which I love because even as all hell’s breaking loose, it’s like think about doing that because you could have what Holt has. Layla: Yeah. They both…you know, Holt’s happily married with a kid. And I think for both, for Hawes and Helena, you know, that’s the ideal. Their parents were happily married, right? Papa Cal and Rose were. So you can have happiness, right, in this. You just have to find the person who accepts it and where’s that line? And Dante is someone who could be that person, right? He comes in and he seems to know what they do. He seems to be okay with it. And it’s got a hint of insta-lust for sure. Like they’re immediately attracted to each other, but it’s not until later where Hawes kind of starts to think, “Huh, here’s this person who maybe gets it and is okay with it,” the way that Holt and Amelia ended up working out. And Amelia is part of the group, she actually has her own specialty with pressure points and being kind of a perfect Trojan horse for the group because she’s not as out there as the rest of the Madigans are with the business. So yeah. So, he starts to see that. And Helena is kind of also walking a thin line of, “I wanna be happy, but do we know who this dude is?” Right. “Hey, Buddy. Okay, go have fun. But be careful.” So, he’s trying to be the rational one in that scenario. Jeff: So, we know that this is a trilogy. How far does “Fog City” go overall? Do you have a grand plan? Layla: I do, I do. Hawes and Dante will have a trilogy. So they’re the main characters through books one to three. And then Helena will have a book and then there’s another fifth book, but I’m not gonna say who that is because that’ll spoil things. But everybody will get their HEAs by the end of it. I’m looking at five and then I’ve got some ideas for spin-offs and I may already have some cover photos bought for them. I would say I like building big verses, right? I mean, I grew up…I mean my intro to really reading a lot of romances, Kristen Ashley, and I love that big verse concept. And so I like building them too. Jeff: And if you, you know, put it back on TV, I mean, you look at things like the Arrowverse and all of its characters or all of the Chicago shows on NBC, you can have all of your one big, huge comboverse. Layla: Yeah. No, and that’s kind of like that. I grew up in all that too. I was a TV person first. I come from that world where it is all intertwined like that. I like doing that. I like cameos and seeing characters and it’s fun. And you know, Mel runs everything, just remember that. That’s all you need to know. Jeff: Even if the characters don’t know that, she’s really in charge. Layla: Everything. Yeah. Jeff: Now, we gotta give you a congrats too because in the midst of you getting this ready, it was announced you’re a finalist for the Romance Writers of America RITA Award, for the book, “Relay.” Layla: Yes. Yes. Jeff: Which is awesome. For those who don’t know, tell us what “Relay” is about. Layla: “Relay” is book one and the “Changing Lanes” duology, which is “Relay” and “Medley.” So, two books. The duology follows the four men who are on the U.S. men’s medley relay team, swim team. And so, the first book, “Relay,” which was nominated, is about Alex Cantu and Dane Ellis, who had a little summer love affair at a training camp 10 years ago and didn’t go well because Dane is the son of an evangelical minister and very closeted. And so he ends up on the same Olympic team with Alex, who is the team captain, who’s worked his tail off basically to get where he’s at and he is…you know, it’s enemies to lovers to start. Obviously, there’s a lot of friction there from what happened in the past. And then they end up on the relay team together, have to work together. And so then you’ve got a bit of a second chance love story. That’s what it rolls into. And so you see up through the first two legs of training camp and Olympic training in the first book. So you see the two domestic sites. And then in the second book, “Medley,” which follows the other two characters, Boss and Jacob, that’s a mentor-mentee. A little bit of an age gap, like 26 to 19, I think. And Jacob’s this lovely like pirate-quoting cinnamon roll. I love him. He’s so much fun. And two bi characters. Jeff: Pirate-quoting cinnamon roll? Layla: Yeah, he’s a cinnamon roll character, like, he’s a total dork. Jeff: I love that description of him. Layla: And so, then you see international training in the Olympics in that book. So they go hand in hand. And I’m really…you know, there are definite problems with the RITA awards has been brought up with getting better representation. I am happy this book got through. Alex is a character of color. And, you know, when I wrote this, I wanted to say, you know, “This is the U.S. Olympic team, a representation that I would like to see,” right, that’s diverse in sexuality and race and, you know, I’m glad that it did get to the finalists because that’s at least out there. Jeff: And again, congrats for that. That’s cool. I’ll have to go pick that up now because I have not picked up your sports books and I’m certainly like a sports romance lover anyway, so… Layla: One of my good friends was a competitive swimmer up through college and so I talked to him a lot and then one of my other friends swam up through high school and then a little bit in college too. So, it was something different, you know, and I think it was right about the Olympics time where we started talking about that idea and then it just rolled. Jeff: As I mentioned, there was some research involved there too, just to know what the training program was like and where it happened. Layla: And then some of it was my own, like, but too, they go to Vienna for training and I studied abroad there. And I’ve kinda always wanted to put it in a book. And so that was a lot of fun – everywhere there is somewhere that I went and even the fight that happens up in the wine country kind of happened to a friend. And so it was interesting like to see kind of, it was a different source of the fight, but you know, I was traipsing through this little village in the middle of the night going, “Where’d you go?” Jeff: That’s awesome. Drawing from real life events. You’ve got a bit of a con schedule going on this year. You’re headed to BLC so you’ll be at the first incarnation of Book Lovers Con in New Orleans, but you’re also making your very first trip to GayRomLit this year. Layla: I know, I can’t wait. It’s finally back out here, relatively close to us on the West Coast. I’m so looking forward to that. You know, I loved…I’ve been to an RW International and then I went to RT last year and I love the reader interaction like that. I like that part of it so much. And so that’s why I’m going back to Book Lovers Con to get more of that, but then I really want to go to GRL because those are particularly our readers, right, and my favorite authors, so I can’t, you know, wait to meet some folks. See folks that I met last year, meet others, and then like… two of my closest writing friends I’ve never met in person, they’re both going to be there. So I can’t wait for that. Jeff: So name drop a little bit. Who are these people you’re meeting in person for the first time? Layla: Well, what’s cool at Book Lovers Con is that I’ll get to meet Annabeth Albert, who’s been a sprint partner, publishes with the same…with Carina Press too. So that’ll be awesome. But then, yeah, at GRL, it’ll be Erin McLellan, who you actually reviewed “Clean Break,” and Allison Temple. So we’re looking forward to that. Jeff: Very cool. Now, of course, “Fog City” continues through this year. I know you’ve got at least one other book sneaking it’s way out there. What else is coming up this year? Layla: So there’ll be the three “Fog City” books and then “Dine With Me” comes out in September and it’s very different from everything else. So, well, I guess not, you know, if you read my books, and even in “Fog City,” there’s food, there’re restaurants because I am a complete and total foodie. And so “Dine With Me” is kind of my love letter to restaurants that I’ve loved, to food experiences that I’ve loved. And it follows Miller Sykes who is an award-winning chef who gets a diagnosis, a medical diagnosis, and basically if he gets treatment, he will lose his sense of taste. It’s a high likelihood that the treatment and surgery will compromise the sense of taste. And as a chef, dude, how? Like even as a foodie, you know, God, I can’t imagine and I can’t even…as a chef, wow. And so rather than get treatment, he decides to go on the last tour of his favorite meals. And it’s not just high end, you know, it’s dive bars and, you know, there are high-end restaurants also all across the spectrum for everything a different place offers. And that’s partially my experiences too, everywhere there is based on somewhere I’ve been. And then Clancy Rhodes who is the financial backer for this effort is kind of along for the ride. He’s a total foodie, experiencing it, and how he starts to piece together what’s going on and also starts to realize they have a lot in common. Despite, you know, a bit of an age gap and coming from different places in different worlds, they are both kinda facing these great expectations and how to handle that. And he has to convince him that, you know, life is more than just your taste buds, right, and that love’s worth it. And so it’s the book of my heart. It’s been in my head for years. I’ve sat on the first chapter since 2015, 2016 it was on the initial list of blurbs I gave my agent, and we finally found a place to make it happen. So I’m super excited about it. Jeff: That’s awesome because it’s always good to get the book of your heart out there. Layla: Yes. Yeah. Like I said, it’s different. You know, there is a ticking clock aspect to it given the diagnosis and what’s going on but, there’s not a car chase, which is unusual. But it’s a much more internal book and a lot of food gushing. So, you know, I generally say have snacks and tissues, just FYI. Jeff: That’s not really a bad thing for any book to have the snacks and the tissues nearby. Layla: You’ll really need it. So, I’m excited. That comes out September 16 and that’ll be from Carina, that one will. Jeff: Cool. And I have to ask before we wrap up, how was it to wrap up the Whiskeyverse for now – as “Trouble Brewing” wrapped up earlier this year? Layla: Yeah. I mean, good. Right. I like where everybody got to. I loved writing that last scene in “Trouble Brewing” and “Noble Hops.” You know, it was just kind of a nice – everybody’s where they should be. Right. I was glad to give everybody their happily ever after there. I did see some things, which are in the pipeline. And so, things may happen in the future depending on time and whatnot. But I’m excited for it and I’m glad Nick and Cam and Mel and Danny and Aiden and Jamie all got their happy. They definitely deserved it. Jeff: Yeah. Yes, they did. They worked for it. Layla: They worked for it. Jeff: Yeah. It was such a satisfying read. If anybody hasn’t picked those books up, they need to for sure. Layla: Thank you. Jeff: So what is the best way for folks to keep up with you online so they can keep track of all the “Fog City” releases and the upcoming “Dine With Me” and everything else? Layla: Yeah, so probably my Facebook group, Layla’s Lushes is where I’m at the most. And you can find a link to that on my Facebook page too, which is just Layla Reyne. So, that’s me on pretty much all the platforms on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. I’m on Instagram a fair bit. There’s a lot of food and my pugs there, so just FYI. I would say the reader group and the newsletter too, which is on my website, there’s a banner, so it’s laylareyne.com and you can follow and find it there. Jeff: Yup. We will link to all that in the show notes along with all the books. The reader group is the place to be because it’s where you find out about like, oh, the first chapter of “Fog City” well before anybody else does. Layla: Yeah. I kind of like…I have a hard time sitting on stuff. I ran one of the big “X-Files” spoiler sites back in the day, so if that tells you anything, I’m a bit of a spoiler junkie and have a tendency to spoil things though, just FYI. Jeff: Yeah. Everybody should go join up with that if you’re into Layla’s books in any shape, form, or fashion. Layla: Yes. Jeff: All right. Well, Layla, it’s been so good talking to you. Thank you so much for the great read that is “Prince of Killers” and I look forward to keeping track of “Fog City” as the year progresses. Layla: Excellent. Thank you so much for having me again. It’s been fun. Book Reviews Here’s the text of this week’s book reviews: Anticipating Disaster by Silvia Violet. Reviewed by Will Nice-guy Oliver enjoys his quiet bookish life – so he’s less than thrilled to be attending a family reunion at a ski resort. He braves the frigid temperatures and disapproving attitudes of his extended family to please his grandmother, who he adores. Irresistibly sexy bisexual outdoorsman David is in town to help his friend mend a broken heart. While his bestie distracts himself with a pair of slope bunnies, David sets his sights on klutzy Oliver, offering to give him private ski lessons. Flirtation leads to friendship and to David accompanying Oliver to some of the planned reunion activities. When certain family members mock Oliver’s nerdish tendencies, David fiercely defends him. Can’t they see how smart and sweet and kind he is? To give Oliver a vacation from his relatives, David takes Oliver to Anticipation, the picture-perfect mountain town that he calls home. The more time that our heroes spend together, the more they think this might just be the real deal. The problem is that neither one of them does casual relationships. David has his life in Anticipation and Oliver has his life back in Florida with his grandmother. A long-distance arrangement doesn’t seem particularly practical and they sadly part ways. Oliver returns to his real life and, after some time apart from David, he realizes (with some help from grandma) that his quiet existence might be more about hiding from life than truly living it. He decides that David is well-worth the risk and heads back to Anticipation to start a new adventurous chapter in his life story. I really enjoyed Anticipating Disaster. The author takes some familiar character types and story tropes and crafts a really compelling story, while at the same time giving the romance her own twist. The set-up might be pure category romance, but let’s be real, this is a Silvia Violet book, so you know that the heat level is going to be cranked up to 11. Oliver has a penchant for lacy undergarments and, over the course of the story, David discovers he likes cute guys with a penchant for lacy undergarments – like, A LOT. Also, in the bedroom, David has a talent for turning some particularly filthy turns-of phrase. So the time our that heroes spend together do not disappoint – these aren’t the kinds of sex scenes you’ll skim over. This book is the first in a series with the quaint town of Anticipation serving as the backdrop for future installments. A few side characters are introduced in Anticipating Disaster and I look forward to the new romances that will unfold in upcoming books. Prince of Killers (Fog City #1) by Layla Reyne. Reviewed by Jeff. Anyone who’s been listening to the show over the past year knows that I’ve fallen hard for romantic suspense, and in particular the stories that Layla Reyne writes. As soon as I offered the chance to read an advanced copy of Prince of Killers I jumped on it and devoured it in just a few days. Not only is the suspense tight but the budding romance had great sizzle. I’ve never read romantic suspense where someone in law enforcement wasn’t at least one, if not both, of the central characters in the love story. In this book, our main character is on the flipside of the law as the leader of a family of assassins. This provided an interesting twist and I loved the ride. The titular prince of killers is Hawes Madigan who has recently come into leading his family’s business because his grandfather is on his deathbed. One evening, just before a job, Hawes gets information that someone inside the organization is looking to take him out and possibly targeting others inside his family. The bombshell is dropped by the mysterious Dante Perry. The news of betrayal from the inside throws Hawes for a loop. He figured some associates might take issue with the new rules he’s put into place, which include no indiscriminate killing, no collateral damage and no unvetted targets. He introduces these rules because of past incidents that haunt him. The introduction of the Madigan family and how they approach their line of work fascinated me as much as the suspense of the internal sabotage and the romance that blooms between Hawes and Dante. Hawes has a twin sister, Helena, and younger brother, Holt who has a wife and baby daughter. Holt’s the tech wizard for the organization and Helena has another career as an attorney helping those who are wrongfully accused. Hawes’s life revolves solely around the family businesses–both the legit refrigeration business and the not-so-legit assassin game. The interplay of the family members as they try to sort out the traitor in their midst while dealing with their dying grandfather is so sharply written. There’s barely time for them to process any one thing that happens and yet the do make time to support and care for one another. Helena even pushes Hawes toward Dante as a potential partner because she wants her brother to have someone. Hawes taking the leap to trust and fall for Dante is one of things I love most about the book as he finds the strength to overcome the fear of putting his family at risk. Even though Holt has made a family for himself and his parents and grandparents had a successful family life, Hawes feels that he needs to be cautious since he’s the family leader now. Dante also goes out of his way to get Hawes and the family to trust him with not only their brother’s heart but aspects of the business as well. Hawes using Dante as his rock as the plot against the family unfolds, exposed his vulnerabilities perfectly. Meanwhile, the bombs that dropped in the final quarter of this book were ones I hadn’t seen coming and got my heart thumping. This is book one of a trilogy and as was the case with Layla’s other books I can’t wait to see where she takes this story. Similar to the Irish and Whiskey and Trouble Brewing trilogies, the Hawes and Dante’s story doesn’t fully wrap up at the end of the book. Of particular note, Prince of Killers ends with a significant cliffhanger. I don’t mind cliffhangers but if you are averse to that kind of ending you might want to wait until book two’s out so you won’t be waiting long to see what happens next. For me Layla’s redefined what a family of assassins looks like with this book. Fog City kicks off with some mind-blowing twists and I can’t wait to see what happens next.

Happy Pride Month! Jeff discusses the awesome Pride Month video from the NHL. He also talks about all the things that happened during release week for Netminder. Members of the Queer Sacramento Authors Collective had a reading this past week at the Lavender Library and will be reading again this coming week at Time Tested Books. The live streams are available on the podcast’s Facebook page. We talk about the Coastal Magic Convention 2020 lineup of m/m romance featured authors. We review the Elton John biopic Rocketman. Jeff reviews Max Walker’s A Lover’s Game. Will recommends books for Pride month: Pride: The Story of Harvey Milk and the Rainbow Flag by Rob Sanders, Stonewall: A Building. An Uprising. A Revolution by Rob Sanders, The Stonewall Riots: Coming Out in the Streets by Gayle E. Pitman, Stonewall: The Definitive Story of the LGBTQ Rights Uprising That Changed America by Martin Duberman and The Stonewall Reader curated by The New York Public Library. Jeff interviews C.B. Lee about the latest book in her Sidekick Squad series, Not Your Backup. We also discuss the origin of the Sidekick Squad, what C.B. hears from readers and what’s coming up next. Complete shownotes for episode 191 along with a transcript of the interview are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Interview Transcript – C.B. Lee This transcript was made possible by our community on Patreon. You can get information on how to join them at patreon.com/biggayfictionpodcast. Jeff: Welcome C.B. to the podcast. It’s great to have you here. C.B.: Hello, thanks for having me. I’m so excited to be here. Jeff: Yeah, it’s very exciting. We got to see you last year at the LA Times Festival of Books for a little, teeny, tiny interview. But we’re thrilled to have you back as we start to talk about “Not Your Backup” which will come out on June 4th, just the day after this airs actually. C.B.: Oh my gosh, that will be really exciting. I actually got to touch the advanced copies for the first time last week at YALLWEST, which due to this fun time jumps of podcasting… Jeff: Well, actually a bit about a month ago. C.B.: Right, right. But, yeah, it was really interesting just to, like, hold it for the first time and see it in print. Granted, the advance copies have typos since, you know, I went through and did all the pass through the typos. But it’s fun, it’s fun. It’s great that, you know, it exists, it’s in physical form, hasn’t quite felt real till now, but now it’s a real book or will be very soon, or tomorrow for your listeners and readers. Jeff: There is something about holding that physical copy, even if you see it, you know, even if it’s on your tablet as an ebook. It’s like there’s nothing like that paperback when it gets there. C.B.: Yeah. Jeff: Now, “Not Your Backup” is book 3 in the “Sidekick Squad Series.” And, for those who haven’t experienced this series or heard of it, tell us what this series is all about. C.B.: Sure, it is about a group of queer teens that take on a corrupt government superhero agency. And they live in this sort of post-dystopian world where superheroes are kind of treated like celebrities. And there’s, you know, shadowy government organizations and mysterious heroes, league of heroes, that kind of dictates who gets to be a hero and who gets to be a villain. And our protagonists all kind of uncover this huge conspiracy, and then they work together to build a resistance and take it down. Jeff: It’s quite the world that you’ve built here. I mean, you hit so many things that are dystopian, U.S. future, superheroes, villains. What was your inspiration for all of this? C.B.: So I’ve always been fascinated by kind of the, like, post-apocalyptic or dystopian worlds. But a lot of the media that I’ve read mostly focuses on kind of the…when you’re in the middle of the disaster, when you’re in the middle of the catastrophe, when everything is going wrong, how are people struggling to survive. So I really wanted to see a world that was…you know, so this is more of like a solarpunk take where the world has started to move forward, where it’s 100 years after all of these disasters have happened – kind of the impetus for the superpowers. And my book is a really extremely intense solar flare that catalyzes latent gene in people. And then after the flare, which knocks out a bunch of nuclear power plants, also, it starts kind of a chain reaction of a bunch of environmental disasters. So 100 years later the governments of the world have kind of shifted and changed, there’s been wars, there’s been fights over resources, so the United States is now part of the North American collective, which is the entire continent of North America, which is now the habitable places. There’s, you know, 24 regions, which is, you know, kind of what’s left of the states. So there’s different areas all across North America, which are now the regions in which people live and, you know, continue to move forward with, like, their amazing technology, and hover tech, and all this amazing, clean technology. But, at the same time, you have all of these like high-tech cities, but outside of those regions, everything else is like the unmaintained lands. So, you know, the government is claiming there’s radiation danger and don’t venture out, but, of course, our heroes are like, you know, what the government tells us isn’t necessarily true. So a lot of…actually, the fun of writing “Not Your Backup” is one of my working titles was “Not Your Road Trip,” because there’s a lot of road tripping in this book. Jeff: Yeah, I noticed. There’s a bit of a road trip in the sneak peek that I got to read too, that they’re out on this road trip, essentially on a mission. C.B.: Right, right. Yeah, there’s the heist in the beginning of the very first chapter. But, yeah, there’s a lot of fun. We get to see a little bit more of the country outside of the cities in this book, so that’s exciting. Jeff: Now, each of the books deals with one of the main heroes, if you will, or the sidekicks, if you will, given the titles of the book, but they’re really the heroes. In “Not Your Backup”, we focus on Emma, who is really the only one of them without the powers. What’s happening to our heroes this time out? C.B.: So at the end of “Not Your Villain,” we have destroyed the registry, which…the big name of everyone who’s ever registered with powers that Captain Orion was planning to use to kidnap people and use for experiments. At that point, our heroes have been looking for the resistance the whole time. And they find a mysterious group that’s been leaving messages on encrypted channels. But then, at the end of the book, they realize that this is actually like a group of nerds that have been joining together to watch movies like “Star Wars,” and “Harry Potter,” and stuff. So they realize that they need to start the resistance. So that’s where we are at the beginning of “Not Your Backup,” where Emma and Bells are back in Nevada, and they are kind of in the midst of this fledgling resistance group – meanwhile, Jess and Abby are at the villain’s guild hideout in the Rockies and they’re trying to corral all the other meta-humans into taking action. So, the beginning of the book, you know, where kind of everyone has different goals, but then they all come together. It’s more about like building the resistance and finding… For Emma, it’s her journey in finding who she is. And, really, she’s a very natural leader, she loves coming up with plans, and she’s definitely a Gryffindor. She’s the first to jump in and try to take action. Her default is, like, fight me. But she also is, as you mentioned, she doesn’t have powers, and so when she’s trying to take a more active role in the resistance, she kind of butts heads with a few of the other members as they have different ideas about who is and who isn’t part of the resistance. Jeff: She just needs to remind them that Batman didn’t have powers either. He just had a really good utility belt and brains. So she could definitely fill that role. What’s been the driving force behind deciding the type of character that you have at the forefront of each book? Because the three books have very different, distinct character types and personalities, and just everything about them is just…they’re just very different from each other. C.B.: So, from the beginning, I wanted to tell this story about, you know, this fun adventure story with queer protagonists. So each book would center on another one of them in the main four. So there’s…and then after “Not Your Backup”, there’s one more book which will be Abby’s story, and so she will round out the quartet. But each of their…you know, they have very different personalities, but it’s been interesting writing their stories because each of them are on their own journey in what makes them a hero and finding how do they define success, and how do other people see them, and how do they see themselves. So, for each story, because we’re moving forward in time, as we get to see who is really, you know… It’s been interesting, because all four books will fit together as a series, but in each book, everyone gets to have their own journey. Jeff: Which I really like because we’ve been introduced to all of them all the way back, you know, back in the first book, but then they get to their own story, which could essentially be read as a stand-alone, if you wanted to, I guess, although reading all of them together is much better. What was the bigger challenge to come up with the trajectory of these four diverse characters or to build this alternate universe of the U.S., or were they kind of equal challenges? C.B.: I feel like the challenge for me is I’m not like a great outliner or I haven’t ever really been a planner. So I’ve always been more of the pantser in the writing style. So when writing a series, when I wrote “Not Your Sidekick,” I didn’t know, up until I think I was about 50,000 words in when I realized that I could not basically solve the problem in that one book, you know, because when I pitched it, it was one book. And then I was like, “Well, I really love all of these characters.” There’s a huge…there’s a bigger story here that I’ve introduced, and I will need more than one book to solve it. And so, from the get-go, I knew the next story after Jess would be Bells because you get into, like, the backstory of the meta-human training and the heroes, league of heroes. And so, I think, overall, just planning a series is really challenging. Some people are great at it, where, you know, they have very detailed outlines, they know, from the very beginning to the very end, what the key points are going to be. And so, as I was writing book 1, I kind of had a panic attack and I was like, “Oh, no, I have to figure out what’s going to happen in each of the books.” And then as I restructured things and then writing book 2 and then 3, it’s kind of come to a point where I’m working on book 4 and now, like, everything that I… One of the reasons why it took me a longer time between book… So “Not Your Villain” came in 2017 and “Not Your Backup” is coming out in 2019. So I didn’t have a book come out last year because I was still working on crafting the storyline because whatever I did or didn’t do in book 3 would determine what would happen in book 4. So everything had to fall into place, and I had to like figure out a lot of stuff. So it was challenging, but I think, you know, it’s still challenging, but that’s part of the joy of writing is to figure out how to tell the story you want to tell. Jeff: If you do a series again, do you think you’ll try to do outlines more in the upfront or now that you’ve had this experience, do you kind of know how to do it and keep your pantser ways going on? C.B.: I don’t know if I’ll ever… Like, I feel like with each book, I’m like, “Oh, do I know how to write a novel now?” But like every book is its own challenge. I do have a better sense of like, okay, you know, how do I plot as a pantser? And then plotting for pantsers, and like learning how to like… For me, I just tend to think of an outline like a road map where I have these destinations I wanna hit, but I’m not committed to – I don’t have to see everything and if I go off track or take a different route, that’s okay as well. So as long as I kind of get the same…like, it’s all in the journey of how I get there, and then the destinations that I pick along the way, if I get to them or not, that’s cool. I kind of have these benchmarks that I want to reach. But I really like thinking of the framework in which I think about my books as a roadmap. So I’ll try to plan out, you know, all the cities I want to visit, but I’m open to discovering places along the way and kind of building up on that. Jeff: How does the pantser sort of method work while you’re world building? Or do you try to, at least, before you start writing, “No. This is my world. This is what’s happened. This is what the U.S. looks like now, and how all that works?” Or does that come organically as you go as well? C.B.: I actually thought like, really early on established the world and what it looked like. I drew a map of which countries were left and which, how, who, what alliances were made in probably much more detail than you’ll ever see in the books because basically I plotted out what happened in that World War III, and what areas were no longer habitable, and all of these things, and all the different lines of, like… I probably spent way too much time figuring out the socio-economic holes, ramifications of which country is now aligned with what country and which countries refuse to join a union or…and they’re all new countries. So there is this whole political backstory of, like, which country fought….you know, which alliance was at war, which alliance and what’s still happening overseas. Some of which you’ll see, but it is the world itself. I’ve always enjoyed world building, and I think it’s really fun to come up with the…I think once I wrote book one where I established, like, how do the powers work. Every power level is different. For example, like the A class, B class, or C class, depending on how…basically, I wanted all the meta-humans in my world to…their powers basically are dependent on…like, they have a limited number of time per day that they can use their powers. So once they’ve used it, then they can’t use it for the next 24-hour period. So it’s a different sort of look at superpowers and abilities because you have to be more mindful about how you use your powers. And so that was an element that I established early on, but overall, I think for me, world building, there are some details I discovered along the way, but I pretty much plotted the world building which is a funny like…and it’s interesting to think about, even though I do consider myself a pantser, how much of this series I did very much envision out from an early stage. So like some of the confrontations and the fight scenes, and the stuff that… I’ve been planning one particular scene in book 3 since book 1, and I didn’t get to do it until… And, so that was like a fun way to be like, “Oh, yes, I’m finally going to like write the scene that I’ve been waiting for.” But I’d had a lot of these moments in my head, and just planning it out and getting the opportunity to like, “Okay, yes. Now, I’m getting to that chapter. I’m getting to the point in the whole series where we’re getting…you know, it’s coming full circle.” So that’s very satisfying. Jeff: It sounds like you’d have a lot of bonus material too if you ever wanted to release it, if all the stuff that you’ve got of the world itself, and the disaster, and how it’s split up. C.B.: Yeah, I mean, potentially, I have a whole timeline that I could release. And then I did these fun… For “Not Your Villain,” I did all the deleted scenes, well, deleted as far as they were cut for length. But I still consider it part of the story, the cannon. So those are an extra that are available on my website. I’ll probably do something similar for Backup, but I’m not at that stage yet. Jeff: Right. It’s good to know about the Villain extras. I’ll be going to check those out. C.B.: Yeah, yeah, they’re fun. They’re all in one PDF. And my book designer, C.B. Macera, was amazing. And she formatted them the same way as the book because we have a lot of extra art as well because she does these amazing, like, chapter headers for each chapter. She’s so talented and amazing designing the covers and the interior of the book, really, you know, capture that feel. And so, “Not Your Villain” actually, in the edits, went from…yeah, it was cut a lot. So, you know, it’s really sad as a writer to kind of see these scenes go, but, you know, as far as, yes, and my editors are great about, like, “This scene is great. But, you know, it kind of slows down the pacing,” or like, “This scene takes us in a different tone or direction, and, like, while they’re great, they don’t fit in the story at that moment and kind of take us away from the main action.” So I understand why they had to go. And, yes, the story is stronger overall, but I like them as an extra. Jeff: Yeah, we’ve all gotten used to those on DVDs over time, so there’s really no reason books can’t have them too. C.B.: Yeah, yeah, it’s a fun extra to have the deleted scenes. Jeff: So you mentioned one more book in the series, the fourth one, is that gonna be it for these heroes? C.B.: Yeah, I can’t say for sure that the door is completely closed. But for this arc, this storyline, that will be the series. It will be completed with Abby’s book. Jeff: We could treat it like the Marvel Universe. Now, if phase 1 is over, and there could be a phase 2 eventually, once you figure out what that is. What got you started in writing? C.B.: I love telling stories. And think I was very young when I tried, like, writing a story for myself. I had an old notebook that I would scribble this adventure story in when I was in sixth grade. And then I’d kind of start and then every recess, I’d pick it up or I’d work on it when I was supposed to be doing homework or stuff in class. And so I’ve always wanted to tell stories. I didn’t really think of it seriously as a career. And then, after college, I went to school for science. And so I was going to get a PhD and do all this stuff, and I, you know, ended up going a different route. And really writing has been a journey where it kind of comes…it ties back to, and I guess like the “Sidekick Squad Series” and the titles were all, you know, the titles are all about, like, hey, I’m not who you think I am, I’m not the person that you’re claiming that I should be or expect me to be. It comes back to where, as a queer woman of color, I didn’t really see a lot of myself in books growing up. And so what I really hoped to write was, like especially when I was writing Sidekick for the first time, I wanted to write a book for my 16-year-old self. So this is the book that I wanted to read. And I wanted it to exist. And so writing…and then I also just like telling stories. So I wanted the story to be fun, I wanted them to be happy and have, you know, there’s drama in them. But overall, I wanted to see kids like myself, and kids who looked like me, and other kids, that reflect the world that we live in because trans kids exist, asexual kids exist, mentally ill kids exist. And there aren’t enough stories where they get to be part of something that’s a superhero adventure, or something fun and fantastic like this. And so I wish that I hope…and I think there are definitely now, in the past, you know, 5, 10 years, there’ve been a lot more stories, and I think that’s great. So I’m just really excited that now people are writing more and more and reading more and more, and there’s a lot of great books to come. Jeff: And one of the things to not…I don’t want to knock the coming out story because those are very important and very needed. But in these books, that’s not really part of it. I mean, this is a much bigger adventure these teenagers are on that just doesn’t revolve around their sexuality so much, that just, there’s so much more going on, which I think is awesome and gives everybody something different to read. C.B.: Yeah, I love that…like, I want us to have the breadth of different types of genres and stories that there are for, like, able-bodied heterosexual people. Like, I want there to be so many stories to choose from. And so, you know…and I really love…I think there’s a lot of power in having joyful stories as well and stories where, yes, sexuality is a part of it, but, you know, who I am is not just my sexuality. Like, every person is multitudes where who you are is made up of so many things like your passions, your dreams, your hopes, your hobbies, your friends. Who you are as a person isn’t just one thing, and we’re all…I love being able to explore that and getting to see… I want people to see that people in the LGBTQ community are like fully nuanced people that get to be complicated and have flaws and go on adventures, or fall in love, or discover more about themselves in the way that all straight people can. Jeff: Well said. I like that for sure. Who were some of your author influences as you got started on your writing journey? C.B.: So I really love the “Harry Potter” series growing up. That’s a huge influence for me. That was one of the first ways I started writing was “Harry Potter” fan fiction because I loved that world so much. And just a lot of…I read so much fantasy like Ursula Le Guin, Diane Duane, Eoin Colfer, like tons of fantasy, Jane Yolen. I started to read a lot more widely. I think when I was a kid, there was a point when I would like go to the YA section and just read like everything in the library. So I would pretty much read everything, but I tended to love fantasy and sci-fi the most. Jeff: Nice, and now you get to write your own. C.B.: Yes. I’m really lucky. Jeff: Is there a genre you want to branch into as you close up the “Sidekick Series?” C.B.: I’m excited to write more fantasy. So the “Sidekick Squad” is more sci-fi, speculative. So I’m working on some fantasy stuff. I’m excited to share it. I have some contemporary stuff. I have a short story coming out next year in the next “All Out” anthology. So that’ll be fun. It’s like a very fluffy high school romance that’s just set in like… The only magic is the friendship and the romance so… Jeff: Aww, sometimes that’s all you need though. C.B.: Yeah, yeah, it’s fun because when I was writing it, I hadn’t written just contemporary in a long time. So that was really fun to try and explore that. Plus, I got to put a lot of puns in there, so it’s all good. Jeff: You seem to travel a lot. I feel like every time I see you on social media, it’s like, “I’m going to this event” or, “Here I am at this event, come see me over here.” What drives you to be out on the road so much? C.B.: So I like the opportunity to see, meet readers. I live in Los Angeles, and I’m really lucky to have the opportunity to go to a lot of events that are fairly local. I also think it’s really important to travel when I have the opportunity to, and I’m lucky that I’ve been able to, and sometimes I will just commit to doing it out of my own pocket because I want to meet readers in those areas. So I love…yeah, I already said it, I love meeting readers. But, especially in places where you don’t get a lot of, you know, LGBTQ resources, or teens don’t necessarily get to see a lot of authors or books with this content come their way and getting to meet teens in, you know, small towns or getting to meet people even though I do a lot of web chats. And so that’s fun chatting with libraries or classrooms through the power of the internet, which is amazing. But, part of being on panels and having these conversations is important to me just because, you know, I get to share with people that might not have heard of my books before or are just learning about it for the first time. And so that’s always a very special moment to me when someone’s like, “Oh my gosh,” like, “This is exactly what I’ve been looking for. I didn’t know it exists, but now I do.” And so that’s very meaningful. And sometimes I get to meet people who have already read the books, and that’s very important to me. And that’s a part of the most rewarding things to me as a writer is knowing that your work has made an impact on someone, whether it’s just making them smile, or, you know, to the depth of having someone like… I’ve cried over several really long emails just because sometimes people are really sweet and talk about like, “Oh, this is my coming out experience”. I want people to see that they’re valid. And so knowing that someone else has read my work and recognize themselves, that’s one of the most rewarding things I’ve ever done. I was in Seattle recently, earlier this year, and one of the events I did was with the Seattle Public Library where we went to the LGBTQ Youth Center. And that was really powerful just to, like, hang out with kids and chat with them and what are they looking forward to as far as like, “Hey, what’s powerful to me, what’s fun to me?” A lot of this is stuff that I totally resonate with when they connect with a character on TV or are upset that, you know, that character got killed off in one season or whatever, because of TV. But, you know, it’s always great to chat with people. Everyone’s always going through something. Jeff: Yeah, for sure. So we’ve hinted a little bit about some stuff that’s coming up for you. You’re working on Sidekick 4, you’ve got a short story coming out next year, anything else we should know about? C.B.: I’m also writing the new “BEN 10” original graphic novels with BOOM! Studios and Cartoon Network. So one is already out. It’s called “The Truth Is Out There.” It’s where “Ben 10” is part of the Cartoon Network show where Ben can turn into 10 different aliens. So it’s fun. It’s a fun, middle-grade romp. So I’m doing a number of those graphic novels with BOOM! So those will be available throughout…I can’t recall the dates off the top of my head, but another one is coming out in July, and then one more in October of this year and then the next year, there will be some more coming as well. Jeff: What’s it like writing for graphic novel because, I mean, that’s a different sort of animal, a novel that, you know, is 60,000 or 70,000 words long? C.B.: It was definitely a new experience. It was a lot of fun trying a different medium. Like, definitely writing a script goes differently as far as…and I catch myself like “Oh, I’m being too descriptive. This is literally…the only person who will see this is the artist.” And it’s also a great collaborative process. So it’s really fun to work with the artists and editors and bring together this story that exists in its own medium. It’s not just me, the writer, but what the artist is bringing, and collaborating with them, and getting to like…you know, I’ll write the dialogue and the action. And then they’ll imagine it in a certain way of like, “Oh, I didn’t think of that,” and that’s really fun. I really like the graphic novel format. I’m hoping to do more. I’m really excited to be working on these projects. And, yeah, hopefully, I’ll be able to share more upcoming projects. Jeff: Pretty cool. And speaking of, what is the best way for people to keep up with you online? C.B.: You can always find me on Twitter and Instagram at, C-B-L-E-E_C-B-L-E-E, because it’s double the trouble. My website is cb-lee.com, and then you can find more links to other ways you can connect with me. Usually Twitter and Instagram, where you can find me the most – that’s where you can connect with me. So in my website, it has like fun stuff. I try to update it with writing resources and my upcoming events. And I also have a newsletter, which will have some special tidbits probably like the deleted scenes, which is the very first place I offered the “Not Your Villain” extra scenes. Jeff: Pretty cool. Well, C.B., thank you so much for hanging out with us. We wish you all the success with “Not Your Backup” when it comes out on June 4th. C.B.: Thank you so much for having me. And I really appreciate it. I’m so excited. And I hope everyone enjoys the book. Book Reviews Here’s the text of this week’s book reviews: A Lover’s Game by Max Walker, narrated by Greg Boudreaux. Reviewed by Jeff I was so happy that this fourth book in Max’s Stonewall Investigations series released in audio just a couple of weeks ago. I’ve been eagerly awaiting the final installment of the series and I was not disappointed. The series has been working up to the final showdown between private investigator Zane Holden and the Unicorn Killer. The Unicorn has loomed large over the series–a serial killer that terrorizes the gay community in NYC. The killer’s gone after partnered gay men and Zane’s husband was aomng the victims. In the first book we find out the Unicorn’s returned and now in the fourth one Zane’s obsessed with bringing the reign of terror to an end. At the same time, Zane is preparing for his wedding to Enzo, the defense attorney who captured his heart in that first book. Unfortunately, Zane is so occupied with the case, he’s missing things, like cake testing and venue selection, and he hasn’t told Enzo that he’s even back on it. Zane thinks he’s protecting Enzo by keeping his activities a secret, but Enzo feels it puts him more in danger not knowing. And boy does everything hurtle towards a massive, satisfying conclusion. Max had me super stressed in this installment. He always does a great job of creating suspense. Here though I suspected everything. Is the Uber driver a killer? Is that bottle of wine spiked with something? What does it mean that someone looked at them on the street? Is the person providing information or misinformation? I suspected everything and also never figured out who the Unicorn was ahead of the reveal. I love that! While Zane and Enzo have been featured in the middle two books of the series, it was great to see them returning to the spotlight. Their dynamic as the move towards their wedding date was wonderful to watch. The quiet, sexy moments they share along with their wedding planning and time they spend with Enzo’s family shows their strong relationship and amazing friends. And, man, are there some super sexy times in this book. There’s always steamy scenes in this series, but these were the best yet. Max contrasts these happy times with how they handle the increasing threats–they want to be strong for each other and also do what’s necessary to keep the other safe. They find it’s hard to maintain the balance and that only increases the tension. I both hated and loved what Max put them through because it was so realistic. Is it weird to say that I liked the terrible choices were made? Despite being great at their jobs, Zane and Enzo sometimes do things that are terrible choices and what makes those so good in the story is that I could see myself doing the same thing. These two are flawed and make bad decisions like anyone can. It makes them human. It makes you scream at them to not do something. It makes you cheer when it all works out too. Kudos to Greg Boudreaux. He’s done a great job with this series overall but I have to shoutout his work voicing the Unicorn. It’s a creep, calm yet evil voice that made me shudder. The spin off for Stonewall Investigations Miami is set up here too. That first book, Bad Idea, just released last week and I can’t wait to pick it up as soon as there’s an audio version.

Jeff discusses a deleted scene he’s offering this week from his upcoming book Netminder (Codename: Winger #4). He also recommends The Queer Creative Podcast. Will and Jeff discuss the second season of Netflix’s She-Ra and the Princesses of Power as well as Pose, which has just arrived on Netflix ahead of the new season coming to FX in June. Jeff reviews Queer as a Five Dollar Bill by Lee Wind. Gail Carriger talks to Jeff about her new novel, The Fifth Gender and some of the interesting stories about its creation. They also talk about how Gail went from archeology to writing romance, her process for world building and her travel podcast called The 20 Minute Delay. Complete shownotes for episode 189 along with a transcript of the interview are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. This interview transcript is sponsored by Dreamspinner PressDreamspinner Press is proud to publish Hank Edwards and Deanna Wadsworth’s new book Murder Most Lovely. Check it out, and all the new mystery and suspense titles from your favorite authors like Amy Lane, KC Wells, Tara Lain, and Rhys Ford, just to name a few, and find a new favorite author while you’re at it. Go to dreamspinnerpress.com for everything you want in gay romance. Jeff: Welcome, Gail, to the podcast. Gail: Hello. Thank you for having me. I’m super excited to be here. Jeff: I’m so glad we finally got you on the show because I’ve been, you know, reading since back with “The Sumage Solution” and it’s like, “We gotta get Gail on. We need to get Gail on.” Gail: I am delighted. I am a devoted listener and so I’m quite honored to finally get to be here. It’s great. Jeff: And you’ve got a book coming out or you’ve just had a book come out actually, “The 5th Gender” just released. Gail: I did. Yes, “The 5th Gender,” it’s my like crazy, ridiculous, silly, happy yet cozy murder mystery on a space station with an alien with five genders and tentacles and purple. Jeff: You don’t often get cozy mystery space station together in one package. Gail: It is…it’s great. It was totally one of those spontaneous, I had like a strange thought/dream/idea to do this. And a bunch of us were joking on Twitter about the craziest mashups of genres we could come up with and somebody was like, “Barbarian noir,” and so on and so forth. And I was like, “Well, I wanna do space station, cozy mystery.” And then I started thinking about it and then it happened. Then I was like, “Oh, okay, I’ll write it, I’ll write it.” I was supposed to be writing something else, of course. But sometimes I succumb to the lure of the ooh, shiny. Jeff: And it was a purple shiny too. So how could you resist that? Gail: I could not. And he’s adorable, the alien character. And I, you know, I have a background as an anthropologist. I have an archaeology…couple of archaeology degrees. And so I just love the way if you’re doing an alien character, you can comment on human social structures and culture and interactions. And so I might’ve had a little too much fun with that. Jeff: Well I was actually gonna get into that. I’ll hold that. Because we should at least tell folks, because I want to talk a little bit more about the origin story on this because you wrote about it. So just like, “I had this idea in the middle of the night, and then I tweeted it, and then it was a story,” which I love, but then there’s the fact that you went away to a retreat and worked on it and had to talk to other people about it while you were writing it. Gail: Yes. So for those…I should preface this by saying that for those who don’t know, I have two names I write under. So I write under Gail Carriger and I write under G. L. Carriger and the G. L. stuff has a much higher heat level. So it’s super sexy. And this book, “The 5th Gender” is a G. L. book. So warning for anybody who doesn’t like nooky because one of the things I realized through the course of that particular writing retreat was that if you’re writing about a species with five genders, human curiosity wants to follow them into the bedroom to see what it’s like down there. And so I thought about trying to kind of clean it up a little bit and it just…it didn’t work. So I was like, “Okay, we are going into that realm.” So I was supposed to go on this retreat and write something else entirely, and instead I just spent the entire week writing this book. And one of the funniest stories from that was me being like, “Oh shoot, what does alien jizz taste like?” Because we all know, at least we do if we’ve been reading my San Andreas Shifter series that wizard or mage jizz is fizzy and werewolf is spicy. And I was like, “Well, what do aliens taste like?” And this meant that I literally had to go and you’re never…on a retreat, you’re never supposed to disturb the cooks in the kitchen. But I was like, “If there was ever a question for cooks, this is it.” There is a crazy author running into the kitchen in the middle of them making shepherd’s pie and being like, “Oh, you guys, what does alien jizz taste like? Debate.” So we had a long debate about it and we finally decided, and you’ll have to read the book to find out. Jeff: Yeah, I wasn’t gonna ask you to spoil that, but I do have to know what exactly did the cooks make of this question? Gail: The cooks were quite game actually. I think they were pretty charmed because normally like they’re doing their art form and we’re doing our art form and never the twain shall meet until meal times. So it’s really rare for one of the authors to actually want the cooks’ help on something. So I think they were kind of pleased to be asked. Jeff: That’s very cool because some of them might have been like, “I’m sorry, what?” Gail: Oh, they know what I write. We’ve been going for a long time with the same cooks for a while, so. Jeff: So this group knew you so they weren’t necessarily surprised by… Gail: No. Well, it was a little out of the blue. I haven’t been writing the super sexy stuff for very long. Like normally my questions are like, “What’s the most ridiculously named, you know, Victorian dessert you can think of,” kind of thing. But yes, it was a little different from my usual questions. Jeff: And tell us what this book is about, this cozy mystery on a space station. Gail: Well, the tagline is an alien race with no word for murder has a murderer aboard their spaceship. And essentially the galoi are the aliens in question. And they are these purple…they’re these adorable sort of purple tentacled kind of, you know, High Elf, slightly looking alien creatures. And they are super isolationist. And the only thing that humans know about them is occasionally they will kick one of their genders. It’s always as one of the examples of the fourth or fifth genders and they’re kicked off and they’re in exile, and those galoi, which is the name of this alien race, go and live amongst humans. And humans actually adore them because they think they’re like sweet and cute and adorable. And they have no…they’re pure exiles. So they have no national allegiance, they have no planetary allegiance. And so they make really great attaches. They’re kind of really kind of comforting and lots of different alien races like to be around them. So they often become attaches to like ambassadors and stuff. So a lot of space stations….space stations consider it really lucky if they get one of these. And the main character, Tristol, he’s one of these aliens and he has a mad crush on the human security chief/detective that’s onboard the space station named Dre. But he doesn’t really get kind of like human flirtation and courting rituals. So he’s sort of…the book sort of starts with Tristol trying to figure out what cats are and why you would wanna keep them as a pet because he’s been asked by some human friends to cat sit. And then, of course, the cat escapes and hijinks ensue on the space station because what happens when the cat gets into zero gravity. Nobody wants to find that out. Anyway, and then the galoi are like super xenophobic, so they never reach out to humans. And then suddenly a galoi ship approaches his space station, which is crazy in many, many ways because they shouldn’t be approaching a space station that has an exile aboard it and they never talk to humans anyway. And they have this incredibly complicated non-pronoun language that kind of indicates status and has to do with all of these different genders. And so the humans are kind of panicking and freaking out. They don’t want a war. They don’t know what’s going on. And the spaceship basically says, you know, “We have a murdered galoi and we don’t know what to do. We don’t have security, we don’t have murder investigations. We don’t. So we came to you, violent humans, to figure this out for us.” And of course Dre, the human love interest is the detective. So he and Tristol have to team up because he needs Tristol’s help to explain how the galoi work. And so the two of them gonna figure out who done it and that’s basically it in a very large nutshell. Jeff: How did you go about creating the galoi? I mean, five genders, no term for murder. There’s like so many things that kind of click into this. Is there like…? Gail: I just, so like I said, I have an anthropology background. I mean, archaeology is blank, so obviously the biology and skeletal structures and things is what I mostly studied via anthropology, but you get a lot of like gender studies and cultural representations of gender and all that sort of thing as part of an education in the United States if you do an archaeology degree. And so it’s always been super, super fascinating to me. I have a minor in classical mythology with a focus on gender. It’s just something that has interested me. It’s really hard to tease out in the archaeological record. It’s prone to misinterpretation by archaeologists and historians and anthropologists. So there’s a sort of storied history with our own relationship from a scientific perspective with understanding gender. And so I just took a lot of that both kind of my education and, you know, how the world now is changing. I spent far too much time on Tumblr, so I have a lot of like non-binary and gender fluid and gender queer fans. And so I’ve just been kind of reaching out to friends and acquaintances. One of my best friends in the world is a bioethicist and a medical ethicist. And so she deals with training doctors in how to talk to people appropriately about gender. And so I’ve had all this sort of stuff messing about, and I was like, “Well, a way for me to explore this and have this kind of conversation with myself and the world is through an alien lens.” And so I just…I love thought experiments, and I was like, “So what if we have a race with five different genders and how would their language evolve? How would their culture evolve? How would they treat each other?” Like all of these, you know, archaeological things to think or anthropological things to think about. And then how would humans, even future humans, react when encountering that? And so that’s kind of where the conception started. And then I just made them purple because I like purple. Jeff: Why not? I’m a big purple fan too. Was there a lot of research kind of building this? Gail: Yeah. I actually have multiple blog posts that either I’m releasing them right now or I’ve just released them recently, speaking from the past into the future. But I have a bunch of blog posts about like a bunch of the research that I did and like some book recommendations and stuff like that, both from a fictional perspective and a nonfictional perspective and different blogs and stuff like that. But I like that. I like researching a lot. I try not to rabbit hole too much because the point is to write the actual book. So mostly what I did is I did that intensive week where I sort of just vomited forth this whole book. And then I went back and like teased it apart and looked into different…almost as…I almost treated it a little bit as if it were a nonfiction piece to go back and see what sources do I need to look up, what like different pronoun terms might be being used in hundreds of years, you know, by humans. That sort of thing. And it’s…since both the humans involved… I try to be complex in my races, whether they’re werewolves or aliens in that like…and to not either dystopian or utopianise either race, either humans or aliens. So both races still have issues. Both are still dealing with how the cultures have evolved and all of that sort of thing. So I’m not setting the galoi up as like the perfect model of a possible future. They have a different evolution, a different model. And they’re merely a vehicle for which we can examine perhaps some of our own biases and prejudices now. And that’s getting very, very serious because mostly what I want my books to do is make you happy and cheerful and be excited, delighted. And if it makes you think a little, that’s great. But really I just want to make everybody happy and hopefully Tristol will do that because he’s delightful. I love him. Jeff: What kind of, I guess, beta reading did you do to see how your various fans handle the gender discussion? Gail: Well, I have trans and gender queer and gender bending characters already, both in my main universe and in my traditionally-published books and in all of my…like my independent and my self-published works and in my novellas and stuff. Some of the main characters, some of them side characters. And so I know that they’re open to it, and I also know that the one that, you know, for lack of a better term, I have like a queer-centered, progressive kind of comfort food brand or business model or whatever, however you wanna explain it. And so I feel like most of my super fans are gonna be excited because what they want from me is that comfort, is that sort of upbeat, fun, slightly fluffy, slightly thoughtful, but ultimately, you know, everything’s gonna be all right. I’m never gonna depress you. There’s never gonna be like scenes of torture. It’s never gonna be angsty, you know, all of those things. It’s always gonna be delicious, I guess. Jeff: I like that as a term for a book. That’s just really fun. Gail: Yeah. It’s just gonna be tasty. Yeah. So they know that and that’s the part that they trust and generally I feel like they’re pretty open minded about how I’m gonna go there and explore that. I don’t think I would’ve done this book, you know, five or six years ago because I wasn’t sure. I had to kind of test the waters with the San Andreas books and some of the other stuff. But I think they’re pretty open to it. I don’t know. You never know. We’ll see how everybody reacts. Yeah, so I mean, and I have beta readers and some of them have read it. I was more careful with this book in making sure that like I had sensitivity, what I call delicacy readers. So people within kind of the gender nonconforming community, again, for lack of a better term. That was more important to me really. I don’t wanna offend, although, you know, everybody’s opinion is their own and everyone is entitled to it. So I’m sure if you come to any book with the idea of being offended, you’re probably going to be unfortunately. So, but I did put essentially a naked purple dude on the cover as a kind of like, “Be aware, there’s gonna be sex in this book. We’re gonna go there. We’re gonna go far out there.” Jeff: It’s cozy with sex and it’s funny and it’s sci-fi. It’s got a little bit of everything in it. Gail: Exactly. Jeff: Do you think you’ll revisit this later as like as a continuing series? Gail: I’d love to. Actually, I have another murder mystery and like I don’t consider myself like a mystery writer at all, but I have this thing as a writer where I don’t write a book until I’ve had what I call the epiphany, which is I need to actually see a scene with characters in dialogue. And it might not necessarily be the first scene or whatever, but until I see that I have that crystal moment, I don’t feel like I can write the book. So I have a lot of books that I’d like to write, but I’ve never had the epiphany with. So they’re just sort of sitting there. And I’ve had an epiphany for a second book in this series with Dre investigating another murder and Tristol still there and everything. But I don’t know how people will receive this one, so I don’t know if I will write that one, but it’s definitely there percolating already. So it’s a possibility. Jeff: It’s a possibility. Gail: Yeah. And the universe on the whole, because it is a science fiction universe, actually does have another, of all things, young adult series that’s set at it that’s kind of been on the back burner for a really long time which kind of has nothing really to do with this series except that the same conceits in terms of faster than light travel. And human…like colonization and planetary evolution are the same. And there’s like a couple of crossover alien races, but that’s about it. But it is the same sort of basic far future. Jeff: If you’ve got the universe, you might as well keep using it. So you don’t have to just keep reinventing the wheel. Gail: Precisely. Yes. That’s my feeling. Jeff: What do you hope readers take away from this romp? Gail: Well, like usual, I just want them to be like… My favorite thing is somebody writes to me and says, “You either humiliated me because I was laughing loudly on public transport,” and I’m like, “Yes.” “You kept me up all night.” “Yes.” Or, “You just left me with a big smile.” So that’s really what I genuinely want is a big smile on people’s faces. But it would be nice if people who read it thought a little bit about…a bit more about gender and how we intimately link biological sex with gender and that perhaps that’s not necessarily the…I don’t know, ethical thing to do – that perhaps gender is in fact a social construct. Or cultural construct. It’s something that anthropologists just accept. Like if you’re an anthropologist, you just accept that as a fact. Like we know, we have seen all of these different ancient and modern races or cultures with varying different interpretations of genders and it just…I don’t think it would ever occur to an anthropologist to like not be like, “Yes, gender is cultural,” but it seems that in the world today that isn’t an accepted principle. And so I guess, if anything, I want people to kind of get it, to maybe think a little bit about pronoun use and all that sort of stuff, I guess. Jeff: Now, as both Gail and G. L., you run across a lot of genres. You’ve got your urban fantasy, you’ve got some paranormal. Now you’ve got cozy mysteries in space. Comedy definitely cuts across all of them. Is there a genre you like most? Gail: I would say I have wheelhouses more than anything else. So there’s a podcast called “Reading Glasses” that talks about as readers we tend to have wheelhouses and if you read heavily in romance, you define those often as tropes. You know, like, “I like the enemies to lover,” or whatever. But a wheelhouse kind of has other things. So, and I would say that there are definitely wheelhouses I gravitate to. So I always write the heroine’s journey. I never write the hero’s journey regardless… Again, this is the gender thing, right? Regardless of the biological sex or stated gender of my main character, they’re always heroines’ journeys because a heroine’s journey, it doesn’t matter who’s undertaking it. So I would say that is one of my things. I always do ‘found family’, and I realized recently I had this big revelation that one of the reasons I strongly gravitate to reading gay romance in particular is because found family is a really popular trope within gay romance for obvious reasons because if you come to the queer community, it’s usually partly found family that brings you there because real family rejected you, at least often did when I was younger. So yeah, and I just love that as a trope, for lack of a better word. And so I have found family in my books all the time. I tend to have extremely strong female main characters except when I’m writing gay romance, of course. Yeah, and lots of queer. I was thinking recently that a slogan I really embrace would be queer comfort because I feel like that’s kind of in all of my books even the books that have heterosexual main couples. It’s really hard. At this juncture, I guess you could say that I trust my readers enough to relax and just write what moves me. I wouldn’t have written this book if I didn’t think at least some of them would enjoy it. I mean, what a privilege and kind of a blessing and a joy to get to do that. But it has been 10 years. So it did take a while. Jeff: And you mentioned that you’re not known for mystery, certainly. So you’ve taken this turn now to at least explore it once. Are there other things out there like, going after and trying to write a mystery, that are still things you want to do, things you’re looking at towards the future? Gail: Absolutely. There’s always… Like I adore high fantasy. Obviously, I’m really into world building. And so like I have a young adult high fantasy. It’s actually techno fantasy, kind of like the Pern books or “Darkover.” And so, you know, I’d like to do that. There’s a bunch of stuff that I kind of am excited and interested, and I’m a pretty voracious and pretty wide reader. So I think that makes you, generally speaking, a relatively wide writer. I think it’s unlikely I would ever break the trust contract that I have with my reader base and write anything dark. I certainly would never write anything gritty or gruesome. I don’t like to read that, so I’d never write it. And I think I’m out of my dark phase now that I have left high school. I don’t do the really kind of dark or angsty stuff. I was thinking about contemporary recently actually. And I don’t think I could write contemporary. The moment I start to think about writing something that’s just a contemporary romance or like women’s lit or even something, you know, Heaven forfend, like proper lit fic, it immediately just goes fantastical. I can’t, I have to inject. And if I were to describe myself as anything, it is, you know, science fiction and fantasy rooted, I like the world building a lot. And so I think it’s unlikely that I’ll ever write something that doesn’t have at least that as part of the component. Jeff: So how did you go from studying archaeology and getting these degrees to now becoming full-time author, writing all these books? What was that path? Gail: Oh my goodness. So I’ve two master’s degrees and I was working on my PhD and I always thought I would be an academic. I genuinely love archaeology. I’m one of those incredibly lucky people who left one career that she adored for another career that she adored. So, you know, tragedy of choice. And I was about to do my defense and I was about two years out which would have been my thesis years finishing my PhD. And I always wrote. I just grew up on what essentially amounted to kind of like a hippie commune kind of thing, and surrounded by artists. And the only thing I had learned really from that is that artists never make any money. And so being an author was really a bad idea. So I was like, “Okay, I’ll be an academic because, ooh, profitable.” At least it’s quasi reliable, right? But I always wrote, I just had that need. It’s kind of like breathing or something. And I figure if I write, I might as well submit. And so I was submitting, writing and submitting. And then I wrote “Soulless” as kind of a challenge to myself. I’m a bit of a perfectionist. I have a propensity for rewriting things over and over and over a million times and never actually finishing anything. And so “Soulless” was like, “You will take six months, you will write this weird book.” This was during the paranormal romance and urban fantasy bubble of the late ’90s, early 2000s. And I was like, what I really want from…I want a bunch of things, right? I want women to write funny stuff in genre, commercial genre. And that’s pretty rare. Most of the writers I knew who wrote funny stuff were like Terry Pratchett, Christopher Moore, Jasper Fforde, like a bunch of dudes. And I was like, “Where are my ladies writing funny? Where’s my urban fantasy set in a historical time period?” You know, I wanted all of these things and nobody was writing it. And finally I was like, “Well, that means I have to.” Jeff: Take the challenge. Gail: Take the challenge. And I really did write it as a challenge. And “Soulless” is a mashup. It tends to be what I write, obviously. I mean, I’m here talking about, you know, space, cozy mystery romance. So I obviously like mashing up things. And so “Soulless” is steampunk, urban fantasy, comedy of manners, romance. It’s a bunch of these different things. And I was like, no one will buy this because I had been in and out of the publishing industry and submitting short stories and I was like, “This…it doesn’t have a place in the market. There’s no shelf it sits on, like, no one’s gonna buy this. But I wrote it so I might as well send it out.” And I had one of those slush pile telephone calls from New York where they like…within a month somebody wanted to buy my silly little bit of fluff. And I was like, “No, you’re joking.” And so “Soulless” was a slow burn. It hit the market and it was really word of mouth. The librarians and the independent bookstores were like behind me 110%. They just loved this crazy little book. And I think it was mostly the funny, but you know, super strong heroine and, you know, like gruff, overly emotional werewolves and queer characters from the get go. And it just appealed to, you know, a kind of segment of society. So I was right about to do my defense when “Changeless,” my second book, hit the hit The New York Times and that kind of seed changed everything. It changed marketing, it changed how much money New York was willing to offer me and my partner at the time was like, “I make enough money to support us. Why don’t you see if this…why don’t you take a break from academia and see if this writing thing works?” And I did and I haven’t been back. Jeff: Well done. Ten years on. Gail: Yeah, a lot of it’s serendipity. And a lot of it is good friends. And then a lot of it was also like, I am super…I’m an archaeologist. Archaeologists are like the organizers of anthropology departments. You know, we’re logistics, we get large groups of people into foreign lands and then make them shovel dirt around, you know. We feed them and house them and blah, blah, blah. You know, we’re big on spreadsheets and organizing. So I already had that kind of part of my personality that I think not a lot of authors have. And so when I was successful, I was ready to be like, “Okay, let’s figure out how many books I can write in a year. Let’s figure out, you know, like… I like trad, but maybe this independent publishing thing is interesting. Let me go research that and experiment with that. You know, let’s try this thing.” I’ve always been like that. Even with my traditional publishers, like they would be like, “You sell really good in eBooks.” And I was like, “That’s because I have romance readers.” And they were like, “How do you feel about maybe doing this strange BookBub thing?” And I was like, “I think that’s a great idea. Why don’t we do that?” You know, it’s like I am game. So I think that has also helped is I’ve always been willing to take a risk, partly because I have a safety net. It’s like I can always go back to being an archaeologist. That’s fun too. Jeff: What’s your overall process? I mean, it sounded like, if I understood from our “The 5th Gender” discussion, it almost sounded like you did the first draft of that book at the retreat. Gail: Yeah. I work really well, it turns out, in a competitive environment. I didn’t realize, but if…I really am one of those writers who I’m social in terms of I like to sit across from somebody at a cafe and just type and just the act of having another writer or a bunch of writers around me also typing is really helpful to me. And part of it is kind of looking over and being like, “How many words have you done? Oh shoot.” And then just typing some more, you know. But yeah, so I do this one retreat every year and I know I can do 40,000 words at that retreat, which is either one novella or most of one of the G. L. books. So I usually sort of get prepared ahead of time with that preparation is writing the first 10,000 or just get…I’m an outliner, so I’ll get all the outline ready. I’ll get all the world building ready. And once I hit the ground there, I can just turn out a bunch of words and that’s great. I try to do a couple of other kind of long weekend baby retreats. I’d love to find other week-long retreats. But the style that I like is pretty rare. And the style that I like is just a bunch of writers writing and no workshops or critiques or anything. So I do that and then most of the rest of the time I am not somebody who can handle multiple projects. I learned that about myself the hard way. So I have to be working on one book and then close that book out and then move to another one. And so if it’s an independent project, what I’ll often do, so if it’s something that I’m gonna be self-publishing, I’ll often write the whole thing on a retreat or over the course of a couple of months. And then just put it to bed and then focus on incoming copy edits or a proof pass or writing a completely different project, and let it sleep if I can. I find that that marination really helps. And then I’ll go back and do a reread. And I’m a multiple editor. I think a lot of comic writers have to be because I do passes for like different kinds of comedy. So I’ll do like a word play pass and then I’ll do a sort of a slap stick pass. And then I’ll do like rule of three descriptive passes to try and get as much different kinds of humor back into a book as possible. And so, and then I have an alpha reader or two and they read before it goes either into my New York editor or off to my beta readers. And then I actually hire and use a developmental editor for my independent stuff as well probably because that tends to lean more romantic. And when I first started writing it, I didn’t really think of myself as a romance author. So I wanted to make sure that I was getting kind of the beats right for romance. So I have an editor who specializes actually in gay romance, who reads all of my romances and gives me feedback. And then it goes to beta readers for the Parasol-verse in particular because they’re like, they’re 25 books in that universe and there’s lots of crossover characters. So most of my beta readers are actually just super fans who are obsessed with the universe and have written me like either critical letters about mistakes that I made in terms of like getting character names wrong or eye colors or something. And usually I’ll be like, “You, would you be interested in being a beta reader?” Jeff: Right. Put those people to work. Gail: Exactly. I was like, “If you’re going to do this anyway, how would you like to get everything ahead of time?” And I give them lots of extra perks as well, special editions and stuff. Yeah, so it’s quite a process at this point. But my beta readers are killer. I’ve got just a team of four now and they’re really fast and great. I love them. And then I have a couple of awesome copy editors that I use and then a proof. The Parasol-verse gets a woman named Shelley Adina, who’s a fantastic steampunk author in her own right and a regency and who’s really, really good on the Victorian era. So it gets a world – like historical proofing basically. And then I have a formatter. I’m a big fan of finding people who are really good at what they do and hiring them to do it for me. Like I could change my own oil, I’m sure, but I’d really rather find a good mechanic, you know. And that’s how I feel about the book world as well. So I have a fantastic cover art designer I love working with and I just got to put my team in place and then hope that no one gets sick. Jeff: Right. That’s the key. Nobody can get sick. Not right now. Gail: Nobody get sick. Nobody can leave me. Very floored when that happens. Jeff: So you mentioned that you read a pretty broad swath of stuff. What are you reading right now that you’re loving? Gail: So I just did a reread on Amy Lane’s “A Fool and His Manny,” which because it got nominated for the RITA award and it was one of the few that did that was queer. So I had read it before, I just did a reread on that and I still love it. It’s very cute, and I love Amy. Amy’s one of the nicest human beings in the world. So that was really fun to redo. And I’m a huge fan of Mary Calmes. I don’t know how to say her last name. Jeff: You actually got it right. Gail: Did I? Jeff: You did. Gail: Oh, good. Yes. I will read… Pretty much she’s an auto buy for me. I just find…I know that there are tropes in place that…but I just find her stuff really…she’s a comfort read for me and as somebody who writes what I hope is comforting for others, like I’m always hunting for authors that give me that same sensation. One of my like constant of all things, comfort, reread rotation is Alexis Hall’s “For Real,” which is a fantastic BDSM, but it’s just like, I don’t know what, the writing is so good. And I will reread R. Cooper until the cows come home, the “Being(s) in Love Series,” which I really, really adore. So, which is an urban fantasy basically. Jeff: So you’re a podcaster also on top of all this other stuff. Gail: I am. I know. That is like completely not connected to anything, side project. Jeff: Well, I’m looking at you, I’m reading the website, getting to know kind of what I wanna ask about. I’m like, “A podcast? Wow. Okay.” And it’s about travel hacks called “The 20 Minute Delay.” How did this come about? Gail: So one of the things that happened to me in the course of this career is I went from being an archaeologist, I traveled a lot as an archaeologist, to being an author where it turns out I travel like five times as much. When I was booked, where I’m regularly, I was doing two book tours a year at least. And that was not counting all of the conventions and stuff I was doing. And a book tour is like 10 cities in 10 days. I mean, it’s crazy traveling. So I turned into a frequent traveler and I’m an organizer and I like to hack things and figure out the most efficient way to do everything possible. And I realized I was doing that with travel. And there are two things that I can talk…well, there are three things that I could talk about, books that I love, like literally until the cows come home, food that I love to eat, and travel hacks. And then I met my friend Piper. And Piper has a day job that has her traveling 80% of the time. And she has, if possible, more travel hacks than I do. I was basically like, “Piper, let’s do a podcast. It’ll just be like 20 to 30 minutes and we will just get on and we will chat about a place that we’ve been recently, and some like delicate matter of etiquette when traveling, like whether you recline your seat or not and how you deal with that,” or recently we did a really good one actually on rental cars. I don’t rent a car that often, but Piper does all the time. And she had some awesome tips for like how to get the best rental car and, you know, what apps to use and all that sort of stuff. And then we do a little gadget where we’re just like, we test a gadget, like a new neck pillow or something and then we talk about, you know, what is that little gadget thing. And sometimes it’s just like, I like the snacky bags. Like you should always have at least two plastic snacky bags with you because they just always come in useful. So sometimes it’s a gadget like that, but we have a really, really good time. And I’m a voracious podcast listener. Like when we started, I’m a fan of this show. So I figured, generally speaking, you eventually become a podcaster if you are a big fan of listening to them. Jeff: That’s probably true. And I think for any of our listeners who are, you know, thinking about, you know, their trips to GRL come October, start listening to “The 20 Minute Delay” now to get all your travel situation put together. Gail: Because Piper and I are both authors, like we don’t…we try to couch our tips as much as possible in terms of anybody can use it. But we are both women. We are women who travel alone and we are both authors. So we will tackle things like how to travel with a bunch of books, like how to fly with 50 bucks or what have you. And we also talk about like safety when you’re staying in a hotel by yourself and that sort of thing. Jeff: So what’s coming up for you next this year with the writing? We’ve got “The 5th Gender” out, what’s coming next? Gail: Next, I have the final book in my Custard Protocol series coming out, which is “Reticence.” And that’s book four of the Custard Protocol that comes out at the beginning of August. And that’s actually rounding out the series in the Parasol-verse for a little while, my steampunk universe. I’m not ruling out doing another series in that universe, but I think I’m gonna take a little break. And I’m on proposal for a new Young Adult series. So who knows? It’s traditional, so it could take forever, could suddenly happen. You never know. And then in October I have a special collector’s edition coming out from Subterranean Press called “Fan Service,” which is for my super fans, which has my 2 supernatural society novellas bundled together with an exclusive short story that’s a hardcover fit, super fancy addition that there’s only gonna be 526 of those printed. And so that’s my October release. It’s so pretty. They can be very pretty covers, Subterranean. Jeff: That’s cool. And what’s the best way for folks to keep up with you online so they can keep track of all this? Gail: Well, in addition to everything else, so in case anybody’s in any doubt, I kind of have no life. I just did…this is like what I…like, I listen to podcasts, I read, and I play online, and occasionally I write, you know, because that’s my job. So I am on all the things online. I genuinely like social media. I know. I know, it’s crazy, but you can pretty much find me on any platform that you like. If you google Gail Carriger and then the name of the platform, I will probably pop up. And I try to use the platform in the way that it’s best suited. So, you know, there are pretty pictures on Instagram and there are lots of pinned gorgeous dresses on Pinterest and historical dresses and crazy aliens. And then I also have a newsletter. The newsletter is definitely for super fans. So it’s very chatty and it’s full of like sneak peeks as to what I’m actually writing and not talking about online yet. And I do freebies and giveaways and stuff there. Jeff: We’re going to link to all that good stuff in the show notes, of course, so people can find it easily. Gail, thanks so much for hanging out. It has been so much fun. Gail: Oh, it’s been a real pleasure. I can’t say how delighted I am to be on and I can’t wait to listen to this from the other side.

The guys talk about having more books than shelf space and also their upcoming 24th anniversary. Will reviews An Easter Promise by A E Ryecart. Jeff reviews Play It Again by Aidan Wayne. Jeff interviews Hank Edwards and Deanna Wadsworth about their collaboration, Murder Most Lovely, the first in the Lacetown Murder Mysteries series. They talk about how they came up with the book, their process for co-writing and what’s still to come in the series. We also find out what’s coming up for each of them in 2019. Complete shownotes for episode 186 along with a transcript of the interview are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Here’s the text of this week’s book reviews: An Easter Promise by AE Ryecart. Reviewed by Will. This is the continuing story of Rory and Jack, who we first met in the holiday story, A Kiss Before Christmas. In that story, Jack finds the homeless Rory huddled on his doorstep and offers him a place to stay. As they learn more about one another, Jack asks Rory to pose as his fake boyfriend when he goes home for the holidays. An unexpectedly severe winter storm prevents them from that trip, but in the few days they’ve been together they’ve fallen in love. I read A Kiss Before Christmas last year, and I still highly recommend it. In An Easter Promise, it’s now Spring and our two heroes are finally making the trip to visit Jack’s family in his ancestral manor house in the countryside. This is a particularly nerve-wracking experience for Rory, whose childhood couldn’t have been more different than Jack’s well-heeled upbringing. Things go relatively well as Jack shows Rory around the expansive estate, but they then get frosty when Jack’s mom makes it clear that she believes that Rory is after her son’s money. Gold-digging accusations aside, as a favor to her, Rory steps in as a last-minute contestant in the Best Bake competition at the village festival. Though his brownies were obviously the best, he doesn’t win. Afterward, Jack announces that he and his culinarily gifted boyfriend are going into business together and are opening a bakery. This once again raises the suspicion that Rory is only after Jack for his money, causing a major rift in family relations. Jack tells his mom where she can stick her suspicions, and is ready to return to London, but when Rory takes the family dog for a walk, he gets lost on the moors in a sudden storm. If reading fiction set in the U.K. has taught me anything, it’s that going for a walk on the moors is always a bad idea. The family organizes a search party and journeys into the dark night to find Rory. He is eventually found, and Jack makes amends with his parents. Flash forward a few months to the opening of the bakery and the beginning of a new chapter for our romantic heroes. I really like both of the stories featuring Rory and Jack and sincerely hope that this isn’t the last that we’ll see of them. The opening of the bakery certainly presents several new story possibilities. A.E. Ryecart, if you’re reading this, I’m a fan and a series set in this world would be greatly appreciated. Play It Again by Aidan Wayne. Reviewed by Jeff. I was completely delighted by new-to-me author Aidan Wayne’s Play It Again. Part of what drew me in initially is that part of it relates to what we do here on the podcast. Dovid is a YouTuber alongside his sister Rachel. They run a channel called Don’t Look Now. Among the things they do is review eateries in Seattle for how accessible they are because Dovid is blind. They also interact with their fans, go on trips, open mystery boxes–it’s the full YouTube gambit. Over in Ireland, Sam runs a Let’s Play channel where he plays a popular videogame. Rachel and Dovid become obsessed with Sam’s channel because of his easy-going, fun delivery. Dovid calls out Sam’s channel in an episode and sends Sam’s subscriber count through the roof and when Sam contacts Dovid to thank him they end up talking frequently. Dovid and Sam are single–but as I mentioned live on opposite sides of the globe. Neither of them, quite cutely, realizes how flirty they’re being as they message each other. Initially Dovid offers Sam advice on how to manage his new subscribers and ways to grow his channel but as they move beyond that and get to know each other the realization comes that perhaps there’s more there. This isn’t the first book I’ve read that relies heavily on text messages, instant messenger, email and so on. I loved how these wove into the story. There’s a good deal of, what I’ll call, regular storytelling too, coming from both points of view. Dovid and Sam have quite a lot internal dialogue about their growing predicament. Just getting time to talk on the phone is a challenge with the nine hour difference between them. It doesn’t stop them though from being ridiculously cute and challenging themselves to let this relationship go through its formative stages without being in the same physical location. Of course, the guys have to get together and that happens when Dovid and Rachel had the chance to do a European tour, which includes Ireland. As much as Dovid and Sam questioned themselves as they did the long distance thing, the jitters ratchet up as they meet. Aidan does a great job of showing the hesitancy–from Dovid wanting everything to be perfect to Sam wondering if he’s worthy of Dovid. Sam comes from a family where he was put down a lot and Dovid goes into protector mode when Sam talks about this, which is incredibly touching and sexy. For all the exploration they did via email, the time they spend together in Ireland really made me appreciate the romance that Aidan spun even more. They’d bonded so much before, they almost fall into old married couple mode with how they try to take care of each other. Dovid is particularly mindful of Sam’s asexuality and makes sure Sam isn’t doing anything he doesn’t want to do. It’s wonderful to see two such diverse characters finding their happy. Speaking if the HEA, I’d wondered how it would manifest in a book where the two characters spend probably eighty percent of the book on separate continents. I adored how Aidan brought Sam and Dovid together. I would love to see more in this universe to know how Dovid and Sam are getting on. Besides the wonderful romance, I loved the attention to detail that Aidan put into showing the work Dovid and Rachel do on their channel. From the talk of creating Patreon campaigns to managing social media and how to interact with the audience, I enjoyed it and I don’t think it’s too much for people who don’t do this kind of thing. Another excellent detail, Dovid and Rachel receive a package from a fan in Michigan–it contained Faygo Red Pop and Mackinac Island fudge, two childhood favorites that made me smile and gave me cravings! So, in case you haven’t figured it out, I totally recommend Play it Again by Aidan Wayne. I’m also looking forward to their upcoming book, Hitting the Mark, which comes out at the end of May. This interview transcript is sponsored by Dreamspinner PressDreamspinner Press is proud to publish this week’s guests Hank Edwards and Deanna Wadsworth and their new book Murder Most Lovely. Check it out, and all the new mystery and suspense titles from your favorite authors like Amy Lane, KC Wells, Tara Lain, and Rhys Ford, just to name a few, and find a new favorite author while you’re at it. Go to dreamspinnerpress.com for everything you want in gay romance. Jeff: Welcome to the podcast, Hank Edwards and Deanna Wadsworth. Deanna: Hello. Jeff: Thanks for being here. Hank: Thanks for hosting us. Jeff: You guys have written a book together… Deanna: We did. Jeff: …which is super cool. April 30, which is the day after this comes out, you’re releasing the first book in the “Lacetown Murder Mysteries” called “Murder Most Lovely.” Tell us about this new series. What is the scoop? Deanna: Who wants to go first? Hank: Deanna? You go first. Deanna: Okay, I’ll go first. So like a year ago I went out to dinner with my husband, had some cocktails and at like 11:00 at night after having like wonderful conversations in my brain with myself because I think I’m clever, I messaged Hank, and I said, “Dude, we need to write a book together.” And he’s like, “We should.” And then we did. Hank: I might have had some cocktails that night too. I can’t remember. Deanna: You may have. Hank: Might have. Deanna: And it was, “Yeah, we should,” kind of moment. And we didn’t really know where it was going. Hank: We had no idea. Deanna: What’s that? Hank: We had no idea, like nothing. That was just the random start of things. “We should do a book.” We didn’t have an idea or anything. Deanna: It was a completely inane, “Dude, we should write a book together,” kind of moment. And then seriously, the next day, we had some conversations like, “What should it be? Superhero?” And then we just kind of like spitted ideas back and forth. And Hank was like, “We would write the fuck out of a rom-com.” Am I allowed to say fuck? Jeff: Yes, you are. We’ll put a little explicit logo on the episode and you can cuss as much as you want. Deanna: So he was like, “We would write the fuck out of a rom-com.” And I’m like, “We would.” And then we’re like, “What should it be?” And we just spitballed ideas back and forth. Like, I mean, literally, like there was probably like 30 or 40, like, things we shot back and forth at each other. And then Hank picked on two of them. And he’s like, “I love the idea of a mortician and a hairdresser.” Then we ran with it. Hank: Yeah, and we just ran with it. And it just started writing. I mean, we didn’t plan, like, “You take one chapter.” What we did was each of us wrote up a character bio and sent it to each other. And so I wrote up… Deanna: It was so great. Hank: You what? Deanna: It was so great, like blind dates for our character. Hank: It was. It was really fun. So you had Michael, right, and I had Jazz. Deanna: Yeah, you made Jazz. So tell us about Jazz. Hank: So Jazz is very sassy and very snarky. And he’s a talented hairstylist and he’s uprooted his life after separating from his husband, who is a best-selling novelist and mystery novelist. And so he’s moved to this small town on the coast of Lake Michigan in Michigan. And some Michigan love there, Jeff. Yes. Jeff: I love that. Hank: Yes, always. And so he’s starting over and he’s just trying to kind of like rebuild and he works at a fun little salon but he’s kind of, he’s 49 but he tells people he’s 41 and… Deanna: He tell’s people he’s 35, remember? Hank: And he tries that too. Deanna: He totally lies about his age. He says he’s 35. Hank: We had, our editor actually called us up and she was like, “Is this right?” Because he shouldn’t have been around back then. Jazz lies about his age. Deanna: He’s almost 50 but he says he’s 35. Hank: Right. So that’s how that started. And then she brought up Michael. Deanna: Yeah. Hank created Jazz, the hairdresser, which is funny because I actually legitimately am a hairdresser in real life. But when we were talking, Hank had said, “I’ve always wanted to write a hairdresser.” I’m like, “You take the hairdresser. Run with it.” And then I took the mortician, which sounded really great and exciting. And after dozens of Google search, Google decided that I obviously want to be a coroner and mortician and they send me casket ads, but yeah, whatever. So I created a…it was fun because Hank created Jazz, this sassy, almost-50 hairdresser who’s super sarcastic, he’s got long honey blonde hair and super stylish and wears eyeliner and he’s really sassy and he has a big potty mouth. Hank: Oh, yeah. Deanna: Oh, he does. And then I didn’t know who Hank was creating when we came upon this conversation. It was very much, “Hey, you pick your guy. I’ll pick my guy. We’ll see what happens. And I made Michael Fleishman who is a 42-year-old, very uptight, very socially awkward Jewish guy who runs the local funeral home and he’s also the county coroner to our fake county…is it Carver County? Hank: Carver County, yeah. Deanna: Carver County on Lake Michigan, which is sort of like in somewhere between, I don’t know… Hank: Like Saugatuck and… Deanna: Saugatuck and… Hank: Yeah, Muskegon. Deanna: Muskegon, somewhere, a fake county in between there and he’s the county coroner. He’s very uptight and super horny and has this like hilarious like sexual imagination but he’s really reserved and he is obsessed with mystery novels. And he goes to a bookstore in Lacetown, which is our fictional town on Lake Michigan, during a literary festival to meet his favorite also author, Russell Withingham, which happens to be Jazz’s husband. They’re separated but they’re not divorced yet. Hank: And that’s the meet-cute. Jeff: Wow. Hank: I know, right? Deanna: Total rom-com, meet and greet during the rain under an umbrella, cute scene. Until Jazz gets his little…I mean, he really worries Michael thinks he’s a bitchy queen and he kind of is. He’s totally the queen. Hank: He’s really fun to write. Deanna: It’s so fun. Jeff: So when you got these characters who are obviously really opposite to each other, you could just hear it in the bios, what was it like to mash them together? Hank: Oh, man. Jeff: Sparks had to have flown off the pages. Hank: Oh, yes, right away. It was really fun. The first chapter is their meet-cute. And we had…I mean, we do a lot of like editing, right? So we’ll write the first pass and we’ll talk about it. We message a lot during the day and stuff like that, talk about where we want to go with things. And then we use Google Docs to write together. Yeah, so that was a lot of fun to just see the whole creation of it and like set up that setting and understand how they were going to meet and how that was going to go and how Michael would be so taken with Jazz at first sight. It was really fun. Deanna: Totally. Like, “Oh, you’re so handsome. Why is he talking to me?” Hank: That’s really fun. Jeff: And of course you’ve got the mystery element in this too. So rom-com mystery, which trying to think, I haven’t necessarily seen that kind of combo a lot because there’s straight up romantic suspense, of course. And then there’s like cozy mystery and maybe this ekes a little towards that with the rom-com–iness. But did you know that this was going to be like something to go for? Or did you just like mash these two elements together and say, “This thing…” Deanna: We thought about doing like a film noir concept, like a 1940s film. But see, that’s the thing. Like when Hank and I started writing, we didn’t have a direction. We were very much open to anything. And it was sort of like he created Jazz, I created Michael. We knew we wanted a murder. We knew we wanted it to be like… Hank: We wanted a murder. The murder got pretty gruesome too. I was really shocked. Deanna: Yeah, we wanted some things but then as we began to write it, it began to have elements of a real murder. So like our sheriff is blustering and funny. And Michael has his kitty cat, the little Mr. Pickles. Hank: Mr. Pickles. Deanna: Mr. Pickles, the fat, black-and-white kitty, which my dog is growling at right now. Jeff: Which we should note, for the people who may not be watching the video, Deanna just held up this stuffed kitty. And you’re going to be giving these away at GRL in a few months. Deanna: Yes, we have a few couple. So like when we created the story, I guess maybe other people with their writing collaborations might be different than we were. But Hank and I were not in a competition with each other. We were not like…we just knew we were going to have fun because we like each other and we know each other personally. And we were just like, “Let’s have fun with this.” And there was no like obsessive competition with like, “I don’t like the storyline.” Or, “I like this.” It was just sort of like, “What do you want to do? Okay, that sounds fun.” And we both ran with it. And we ended up developing this city on Lake Michigan and this little town and these little side characters. Jeff: Let’s talk about the mystery side of it. Who is dead? Deanna: Oh, yes, the mystery side of it. That’s right. So I’ll talk and then I’ll let Hank talk because I’ve been blabbering too long. So we decided we wanted it to be, like, film noir idea. And then it became like a legitimate murder mystery where there is a dead body and it’s gruesome and it’s creepy and it’s sad. And there’s like some crazy shit happening. And there’s like cops that need to come in. And there’s like a real mystery. And there’s actually a couple side mysteries that are happening over the book arc of the next two novels, novel two of which we will be submitting in the morning. We would have submitted it today but I’m being a typo psycho. I am. I’m a typo psycho. Hank: She’s finding a lot of good stuff, though. I like the changes. So, yeah. So the murder actually got more gruesome than I was anticipating. We were like, “Let’s go.” “Wait, do we want to go?” “Yeah, let’s do it. Let’s do it.” So it’s…do we want to say who it is? I mean, it happens early on. So I don’t think it’s a spoiler, right? Deanna: Oh, I don’t know. Why don’t we just talk about how creepy the murder is. Hank: Okay, we’ll just leave it just like that. Deanna: Not who is murdered. Hank: Someone’s murdered and maybe their hands are missing. Deanna: Or chopped off. Jeff: Oh, wow. Hank: So, yeah, that’s kind of… Jeff: That’s more gruesome than I expect in a rom-com. Hank: I know. Jeff: I’ll say that. Deanna: Oh, wait ’till you hear about the serial killer. Wait, that was a spoiler. I didn’t say it. Hank: But in the first book… Jeff: Is that a spoiler that we’re leaving in or a spoiler that we’re taking out? Deanna: We’re leaving it in but we’re not gonna respond about it. Jeff: Fair enough. Hank: That’s right. Jeff: A little breaking news there for the podcast that we will not do follow-up questions on. You were saying, Hank, on this murder. Hank: So yeah, so it was gruesome. And then there’s the discovery. But Michael is kind of, you know, he can’t help but be a little excited about it because it’s his first murder because he’s a small town, county coroner. And the only… Deanna: He’s not only a mortician. He’s the county coroner too. Hank: Right. So it’s up to him now to, like, investigate it. He’s never had a murder like this. He’s had a murder but they knew the victim and the attacker. So this is completely new for him. And he reads murder like mystery novels, so he’s really excited about it. So he’s, like, starting to play, like, detective. And then the sheriff is kind of, you know, like all blustering and yelling at him like, “Fleishman. Dilworth.” You know, that’s Jazz’s last name, Jazz Dilworth and he like calls everybody their last name and yells at them. And they’re always a suspect, so, “Don’t leave town.” Deanna: Everyone is a suspect until Musgrave says they’re not a suspect. Hank: “Don’t leave town.” Yeah. Sheriff Musgrave. Jeff: So if I understood correctly, you kind of just created this on the fly. Hank: Yep. Deanna: Totally. Jeff: For both the romance and the mystery? Deanna: Totally. Jeff: How did that play out in like the day-to-day writing? Because I can’t even like imagine having co-written something that there wasn’t more of a plan to it. Hank [softly]: I know! Deanna: How did it go? Hank: Actually it went smoother than I expected. Deanna: It was so much fun. Hank: Yeah. And it was a lot of fun because we chatted a lot on Facebook Messenger. And we’d text and we call each other now and then. We’d have conversations, phone conversations, and we’d plan out where we wanted things to go. And then one of us would say, “Okay, I’ll do this and then you can write that.” And then we just kind of took it. And then it was really fun because like you’d go through and you’d read…you know, how you like read through what you’ve written and it’s somebody else has written something new and you’re like, “Wow, this is like a whole new story.” Like you don’t know what you’re reading, you don’t know anything of what to expect. So it was really fun. Deanna: So awesome because, like, first, I gotta say, writing with Hank Edwards has been a pleasure. Because not only is he a great writer and like stupid funny, like so funny, I can’t even tell you how many times he writes something and I’m just like…laughing. But he and I are not…we’re not competitive individuals. We’re not like jumping into this, like, “Well, this is what I want. This is what I want.” It was so easy, where it was just like we just…Hank created Jazz and then Jazz has this profile that we went with. I created Michael and we had this profile we went with. He and I created an exterior mystery that happened to them. But because he created such a good profile and I just created such a strong profile, both of us knew who Michael and who Jazz were. And then it was like, “Well, Michael wouldn’t do that,” or, “Jazz wouldn’t say that.” And we didn’t like try to, like, undermine the other person. I don’t know. I just feel really blessed. I love you. I just feel blessed to be able to write a story with someone who is so easy and so fun and our sense of humor is both very similar and darkly twisted and inappropriate, like we both knew when our editor was gonna go, “Mm-mm. No.” Hank: I told her several times, I’m like, “This is gonna get cut out and you put it in and it’s gonna get cut out. I’m telling you right now.” And she’s like, “I want to leave it in.” I’m like, “Okay, but it’s gonna get cut.” And it did. Deanna: And I’m like, “They’re not gonna let us use the C-word.” And he’s like, “Maybe they will.” No, they didn’t. But it was so much…I don’t know. It was just one of those things that were really easy because Hank is so fun to work with. It was just easy. I mean, not that writing and editing is easy. But even as we went through the process, there would be scenes…we each knew where the scene was going to go. We knew what scene was going to happen next. And if it was…because our work…he’s very typical 9:00 to 5:00 work schedule, Monday through Friday, and I am Wednesday through Saturday, noon to 8:00, those four days. So like he would do all the stuff Wednesday through Saturday and then I’d open it up on Sunday, and then I’d do all the stuff Sunday to Tuesday. And then it wasn’t like we were fixing or changing each other’s work. It was like, “Oh, that’s a great scene.” And then I would add to it. And then he would take my scene and add to it. And it was just like layering and layering cool stuff with what was already funny. So it was like I knew what I was writing on Tuesday. I wrote this whole scene. And then Hank would write the next scene. And when I would get a chance to read on Thursday, he was like, “Oh, what am I going to read? I know what’s gonna happen but how is it gonna happen?” And he is so funny. So funny. And, I mean, it was just so great writing together. Jeff: So, Hank, for you, what’s kind of your side of that story as you’re like going through and doing your part on the book on your days? Hank: So it was a lot of fun. Like Deanna said, because I’ve been writing during my lunch hours at work, so like Monday through Friday I’d have like an hour and I usually go and I hide somewhere at the building and I’ll, like, be able to focus and write. And it was really fun to go through Google Docs and be able to accept all those changes because we always do the suggestions, right, so like the track changes so we can see what each other has done. And it’s always so much fun to see. It looks like, you know, like Deanna said, it’s like, “Oh,” it’s like a little present. You know, like, “There’s something new.” And I go through. But then seeing how she did the layering, I was talking to my husband, Fred, and I was like, you know, it’s like I’m picking up such good ideas about how to layer emotion in. Deanna is awesome at doing that and like pulling out the emotions in a scene and like digging in deeper where it needs to be. You know, that’s something that I’ve always kind of like, you know, I’m always like, “Write the action. Write the action. Write the action.” Deanna: But that’s what I love about his writing because he will write action that conveys emotion, whereas I would have written a long, drawn-out emotional monologue. And somehow the two just worked so great. I think. Hank: We are a good blend together like that. So, yeah, it’s really funny and she’s funny and really darkly funny. So it’s been a lot of fun because there’s some stuff where I like write something dark and funny and then, you know, you get the comment. It’s always fun to get that comment like, “LOL. Oh, my God.” And so then like all of a sudden like further down the page, she’s added somebody I’m like, “Oh, my God, you did not just write that.” So it’s really funny. Deanna: We’re so wrong. We’re so wrong, we’re so right, Hank. Hank: Yes. Jeff: Well, I really like the organic method it sounds like you guys had. Because like my brain can’t even begin to process trying to co-write without a plan. But I’ve heard other people do that and it works out great. What, as you got the draft done, what was the revision and also, I guess, making the book seem like it had one voice? What was that like? So was it like two different people at work? Deanna: Can I respond to this? Hank: Of course. Deanna: Okay, so, Hank would send me…well, it was in Google Docs. So we would get scenes together. So I feel like the way it went before anyone else read anything or we got any feedback from editors, from beta readers, or whatever, it was like we had our strong characters decided who they were and what they were and what the mystery was. And he would write a scene and then I would get it and I’m like, “Oh, it’s a good scene. I love where it’s going. Maybe…” Okay, so like I’m not going to give a spoiler, but there’s a scene at the end of Book 1 where the murderer is caught and our two heroes are like in this epic battle fighting them, like the murderer, right? Okay. So Hank writes that scene and I’m like, “Ah,” and then I go in and I add some fighting, some struggling, and maybe a little dialogue. Hank comes back in, he adds a little more dialogue. He remembers that the gun is on the other side of the room. Whatever the detail is, we both keep adding layers. And I think it comes back to the point that we’re both so invested in our characters and we weren’t, like, competing to try to be the better person. And I think that’s a lot of it. I mean, I think you can’t co-write a book together if you’re competitive or need center of attention. Hank and I just had so much fun. It would be like, “Oh, yeah. Add that, add that.” And he’s just like “Oh, my God. We’re great. That’s great. You shot him. Oh, I didn’t expect to shoot him. Let’s do that.” Whatever it was and we kept adding these layers and it became so much fun. But in the end, when we would get a scene and it was completed, we would…each of us would go back and read through the whole manuscript and be like, “Oh, we missed that detail.” And Hank would send that to me. And I’d be like, “Oh, yeah, that’s right. I forgot about that.” And he would add it. Or I would like, even today, we’re actually like one day off submitting Book 2. We were going to submit it today but I am like typo crazy. So I sent the manuscript to my Kindle so I could find any misspellings and typos. And I was like, “Oh, my God. We have a scene where Michael and Jazz are sitting in Michael’s living room with the TV. And in Book 1, he only has a TV in his bedroom. What are we going to do?” And Hank is like, “That’s cool. Good for catching that.” And I feel like that’s kind of how we’ve been like we’ll catch something and go. “Oh, I’m glad you caught that.” Hank: Yeah. But to your point, Jeff, you said like about planning and writing off the cuff, so the first book, I think, Deanna, you can tell me if I’m wrong. But the first book was really, I mean, it wasn’t easy because writing is hard but it was easier. Book 2, it was more of a struggle I think with writing it. Deanna: Book 2 was more of a struggle. Hank: And we had a lot going on. So we have like an overarching mystery, we have another, like, contained mystery. Deanna: Yes. Hank: So we’ve talked about it and we’re like Book 3, we really need to plan it out more. We’re gonna… Like once we let this book to get out a little bit, we’re going to like start planning Book 3 and then really like… Deanna: We need a serious luncheon with some planning. Hank: Yeah, so, absolutely. Deanna: Book 1 was very organic and natural. And Book 2, I mean, you’ll probably agree, Hank, I think we fell in love with our side characters so much we got distracted with all these sides stories. Even our editor was like, “Why are you talking about that and that?” We’re like… Hank: “Because we like them.” Deanna: So we had to cut a lot of scenes and really focus back on the romance, on book 2. Jeff: DVD extras, deleted scenes. Hank: DVD extras, exactly. Jeff: But let’s talk about those side characters a little bit because there’s a whole paragraph of the blurb for Book 1 that details the side characters. Michael’s sassy assistant, Kitty, the grumpy Sheriff Musgrave, Russell’s creepy PR rep, Norbert, Michael’s grandfather who likes his Manhattans strong and his women saucy. And of course, who we’ve already met, Mr. Pickles Furryton the Third. Hank: Yes. Mm-hmm. Jeff: So did you guys split those up in the same way that you took Jazz, Hank, and Deanna took Michael? Or did these get created on the fly as you needed them? Deanna: They were on the fly. Hank: Yeah. Deanna: We just like… Hank: We just do, kind of. Yeah. Deanna: I think I came up with Mr. Pickles Furryton the Third and Hank created Sheriff Musgrave. Because I think when we were talking, Sheriff Musgrave was actually like an old man and Hank made him this whole, like, Ron Perlman kind of character. Hank: Yes. Very Ron Perlman. Deanna: He has a lot of attitude. And Kitty, I don’t know where she came from. Hank: You created Kitty. Deanna: Did I? Okay, because I imagine her. Do you watch “Blue Blood” with Tom Selleck? Jeff: I have not. Deanna: Oh, anyways. His secretary is this voluptuous like blonde chick and I pictured her. And I don’t know who created Grandpa. Hank: I think we both did. Deanna: You had Steve. Hank: Oh, yeah, the handyman. Deanna: We both made Ezra. Hank: The apprentice. Deanna: I don’t know anything about them. That’s not a spoiler at all. Jeff: That’s very impressive to just kind of create on the fly like that. Two people pantsing would make my head explode, but. Hank: It was insane. I don’t know how we managed to do it but… Jeff: I think you had fun with it all the more. Hank: …we had really good feedback from the editor. Deanna: We did have so much fun, Jeff. Hank: Yeah. Deanna: I don’t know how lucky I am. Like a year ago, I sent him a drunk text message that we should write a book together. And we have had the best year. Jeff: Had it even crossed your minds before the drunk text to do this in some, like, other random moment? Deanna: No. Hank: Never ever really even talked about it? I mean, we see each other GRL. She comes up for Ferndale Pride because she lives about an hour and a half away from me. Deanna: I’m northwest Ohio, he’s southwest Michigan, so we’ve done some pride festivals together. But in all freaking honesty, the whiskey made me do it, Jeff. I literally texted him, “Hey, full disclosure, I’ve been drinking. We should write a book together.” I do believe, Hank, that was the quote. Hank: Pretty much. Yeah. Deanna: And he was like, “We would write the fuck out of a rom-com.” And I was like, “We would.” And then we ran with it. And then that’s that. It was just, like, all fun. Jeff: And it’s interesting that you’re evolving in Book 2 and probably in Book 3 too. You had the fun moment. Now you kind of have to make everything keep tying together in the next two books. Hank: Yes. It’s all got to come together now for the third book. Yeah. Jeff: Because that’s like, yeah, when you have all that tied together stuff, because I’ve been reading a lot of romantic suspense lately where it’s like something that arcs across a trilogy or whatever, and it’s like…it’s exciting. Hank: Right. Deanna: Yeah. Book 2 is tentatively called “Murder Most Deserving,” and it was a lot harder to write than the first book. Hank: Yeah. Jeff: As fun though, I hope? Hank: Oh, yeah. Deanna: Oh yeah, just as fun, but there were moments I feel like we both checked out. And we’ve had this conversation. We know that we checked out because we had decided on a storyline for Michael and Jazz. And then we were like, “This doesn’t feel right.” Because it’s not your book, it also belongs to someone else, you don’t just say, “Oh, that storyline can’t happen,” because two of you decided together so you keep going with it. And then there’s moments where we had to talk and we’re like…where I was like, “I don’t like this.” And he’s like, “Yeah, I don’t like it either.” And I thought I said I didn’t like it. I’m like, “Maybe you said you didn’t like it. But I didn’t really expect you didn’t like it and I don’t know why we didn’t like it. And I don’t even know why we’re doing it.” And it was like we had…I mean, there was like, there was a couple of moments like that on the story. And there was also like we said in the beginning, we love our side characters too much. And we gave them a lot of screen time they did not deserve, even though we love them. So we had to distract and take a lot of stuff out. Not that we wanted to take it out but it was like why is this thing here? No one cares… Hank: Right. Deanna: …except us. So it was a little different. Like we created this wonderful world and in Book 2 we kind of just went crazy. We, like, went crazy with the Cheez Whiz. It’s like, “I love Sheriff Musgrave. I love Missy.” And we just wrote all these scenes and we’re like… And part of that I will say is my fault because I sent a lot of scenes to Hank before we even plotted the book. I was like, “I wrote this funny scene I’m going to send you.” And he’s like, “I love it.” And we wrote it. Hank: And I was like opening emails from Oprah. “And you get a storyline, and you get a storyline.” Deanna: Totally. Jeff: Maybe these could become short stories for these characters if you can’t get them into the book. Hank: That’s great. Jeff: So take a moment to brag on each other. And outside of working on this book, what do you like about each other’s work? Hank: I’ll go. Jeff: Hank first. Hank: All right. I love Deanna’s depth of characters. So her books, I think the first one I read of yours was “The Legend of Sleepy Hollow.” And I was like, “Oh, Ichabod. Oh, you naughty boy.” But then I can’t remember in what order then I read them but like “Easy Ryder,” I love that book. That is an awesome book. And I love the time period and I love the characters and I just love all of it and the discovery. That’s a road trip, another…you love the road trip books. Deanna: Apparently. Hank: Apparently. And then “Wrecked” is awesome. It’s really good. But she has a way of just like, you know, pulling up those emotions and really getting into the romance of it and doing an awesome job with it and having the characters. And then the conflict is organic, it’s not, like, fabricated. And it all blends together. She’s got a really good sense of story. Jeff: Nice. Deanna: That’s so sweet. I feel like, Hank, your dialogue sells your story. You could write a whole book on just dialogue with nothing else and people would buy it and laugh. You’re hilarious and your dialogue is great. And I feel like our styles mesh well because I do write more… I like to write a lot of the internal monologue and the emotion. But I’ll tell you an example, and this is a semi-spoiler in Book 2. But this is what I love about Hank’s writing. Okay. I’m not gonna tell too much of the story but there is a scene where something really shocking happens for our character, Jazz, the hairdresser. And the scene is in Jazz’s point of view. You’ll know what I’m talking about in a second. So the scene is in Jazz’s point of view and then Michael, our mortician, bursts through the door. And everyone is like, “How did you get here?” And he’s like, “I ran here.” And that sounds like simplistic but the emotional intensity of why Michael would run five blocks to the salon where Jazz works on a mere phone call just conveys so much intensity with three words, “I ran here.” And that’s what I love about Hank’s writing. I mean, I write the long emotional, internal monologue. And Hank writes that same intense emotional monologue in three words, “I ran here.” And I think, I mean, I’ve always…that’s what I love about his books. But I feel like those two things complement each other in our writing. Like I like to write the long drawn out emotional and he writes that same scene in three words, “I ran here.” And that’s why I love writing with him. Jeff: Cool. They’re hearting each other for those people not watching the video right now. Jeff: So you mentioned three towns…three towns, no, three books in the “Lacetown” series are planned. Do you foresee life in the universe beyond those three since you’re having such a good time? Deanna: Yeah. Hank: We talked about it. We’ve discussed it, yeah. We’ve got the trilogy planned and then we’ll see what happens with it. Deanna: We have at least two in our head. Jeff: That’s cool. Deanna: Beyond the three. Jeff: Now what about separately? What’s coming up next outside of the “Lacetown” series for you both? Hank: You have something coming up soon, Deanna. Deanna: Well, I have one thing coming up for sure and hopefully two. I also write young adult fiction just like Hank does under his…is it RG or RD? Hank: R.G. Deanna: R.G. Thomas. Hank has a young adult series under RG Thomas. And I have a young adult series, K.D. Worth, which is very different from my Deanna Wadsworth writing. It’s young adults/new adults because my characters are 19 and there are some, I don’t know, level-three sexy moments. So you can’t really…like you know people get funny about young adult that has sexy stuff in it. There’s a strong spiritual element with the main character who was trying to kill himself because of his family sending him to like one of those creepy pray-the-gay away camps. And the moment he kills himself he’s saved by a young teenage Grim Reaper, who decides that he wants to give him a second chance in life. And there’s a sassy foul-mouthed, because no one understands why Deanna would write a character like that, a sassy foul-mouthed angel who helps these boys on their journey. And that story is called “The Grim Life.” And Book 3, the final series, the final saga in that trilogy “The Lost Souls” is coming out this fall. And I’m really, really excited about that. I mean, a lot of M/M or gay romance, whatever you want to call it, authors know that young adult isn’t where the sales and money are at, sadly, but this is like a really intense…I don’t want to say pet project because that trivializes it, but it’s really a series that means more to me than almost anything I’ve ever written. Hank: Yeah. You’ve been working on these for what? Like two years now? Deanna: Yeah, four. It took me two years to write Book 3 because I just emotionally invested in it. There’s a lot of death and questioning of what goes on on the other side and where God sees your soul and all these like intensely hard questions. And to make things harder on myself, I put a school shooting in Book 3 because why not? Hank: No, why? Deanna: It’s so emotionally intense that you can’t write it. So that comes out this fall. But I’m hoping my second book in my Pride of the Caribbean Cruise series comes out which is a merman. Hank: Nice. Deanna: A merman… Hank: On a cruise. Deanna: …on a Caribbean cruise. It’s like I like to be intense or I like to be funny. I can’t be… Hank: There’s no in between, right. Jeff: Either end of the spectrum. Hank: That’s right. Deanna: That’s what I do. So that’s what’s coming out for me. Jeff: Cool. Hank: I will be working on the final book of the “Critter Catcher” series, final book for now. It’s tentatively titled “Dread of Night.” So and I’ve got about six chapters written. I’m working on a big pivotal scene also, so I need to just like…now that Book 2 has been sent off for consideration I can like, you know, kind of focus on that because I’m really bad at like jumping between projects too. Like my mind gets stuck in the other characters because while I’m working on this other I’m like, “But wait, what about…?” So, yeah. Jeff: Cool. All right. What is the… Hank: There’s other stuff to work on too but that’s the big thing coming up. Deanna: I love the “Critter Catcher” books. They’re so good. I manipulated Hank into giving me the last book when I was sick last summer. I was like, “Shouldn’t you send it to me? I know that you’re going to submit it for publishing in a month, but I’m really sick.” Hank: “I need to beta it. I’m sick.” Yeah. Deanna: Yes. I did do that. Jeff: And it worked too, right? Deanna: It worked. Hank: I did. I sent it. I was good. Deanna: And it was worth it. Jeff: So what’s the best way for readers to keep up with you guys online? Let’s start with Hank. Hank: I have a website. It’s hankedwardsbooks.com. You can also find my young adult fiction at townofsuperstition.com. And I do have those books listed on my Hank Edwards’ website just to make it easier. And then I’m on Facebook. I have a Facebook page. It’s facebook.com/hankedwardsbooks. And I really don’t use…Twitter confuses me. I get really…it’s just this noise. It’s like people yelling at each other. And so I have a Twitter account but I’m not out there much. But I am on Instagram. I usually post pictures of my cats. You know, and that’s @hankedwardsbooks as well. Jeff: Cool. And Deanna? Deanna: I’m on Facebook, deannawadsworthauthor. And Instagram, I go by @deannawads. I don’t know why I didn’t finish my last name but I don’t know. Everybody called my grandpa Wadsy. So I should have done Deanna Wadsy but I screwed that up. But I’m on those two. A little on Twitter and a little on Pinterest, all under Deanna Wadsworth. Mostly my most activity is on Instagram or my website, deannawadsworth.com. And that’s it. And you should totally read Hank’s R.G. Thomas books. It’s like Harry Potter but gay with, like, dragons. And little garden gnomes. I fricking love those books. You better write another one after we write our book. After we write our book. You’ve got to. Hank: Got it. Jeff: You’ve got your marching orders now, Hank. Hank: I do. I get them a lot. Deanna: He doesn’t have a wife, but… Hank: It’s all right. Deanna: …I’ll jump in that role. Hank: She’s my work wife. Jeff: All right. Well, this has been a blast. We will definitely link up to everything in the show notes that we’ve talked about here. And we wish you the best of success on the “Lacetown Murder Mysteries.” Hank: Thanks very much, Jeff. It’s been fun. Deanna: Thank you, Jeff.

New movie and TV deals are discussed with both Casey McQuiston’s Red, White & Royal Blue coming to Amazon and a Love, Simon series to the Disney+ streaming service. Jeff talks about seeing The Lightning Thief: The Percy Jackson Musical. New patrons Rhonda and Regi are welcomed. Will reviews the Netflix original Special. Jeff reviews Jay Bell’s Straight Boy. Jeff & Will discuss their trip to the LA Times Festival of Books. They also share the interviews they did at the festival with Julian Winters, Kim Fielding & Venona Keyes and S.A. Stovall. Julian talks about his upcoming book How to Be Remy Cameron. Kim discusses her Stars in Peril series and Venona also tells Jeff about her co-writing with Kim. S.A. gives the origin story of her Vice City series and how she uses caricature to encourage people to read the first chapter (she also did a super cute caricature of Jeff & Will). Complete shownotes for episode 185 are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Here’s the text of this week’s book review: Straight Boy by Jay Bell, narrated by Kirt Graves. Reviewed by Jeff. I went into Straight Boy without knowing much about it other than it was a young adult story involving Andrew, a gay high school student, who develops a crush on Carter, a straight (or maybe not-so-straight) boy. What made me buy the audiobook was the fact I’m a huge Jay Bell fan because of Something Like Summer and also for Kirt Graves’s narration. I knew these two together would give me a great read. And they did. With Something Like Summer and its sequels, Jay proved a master of telling a story with many characters and many plot lines that involve an array of emotions. He’s upped his game with Straight Boy. Two things happen right away–Andrew, a recent transplant to Chicago, discovers a boy who lives down the street having an argument with his parents and saying things like “I was born this way.” Andrew thinks he’s found a gay friend. The next day–his first day at his new school–Andrew comes out as he introduces himself in class. This makes him a target of the school bully, Bobby. Andrew goes off on Bobby, despite the bully’s threats and ends up getting sent to the guidance office. Here he meets Carter and discovers that’s the boy he heard arguing. Both of them end up in a special program at the school where learning happens outside a traditional classroom Andrew’s year is now set. Everyone–gay, straight or otherwise–inevitably has that phase where you want a romantic relationship that you can’t have. Andrew longs for Carter but also doesn’t want to wreck their friendship, which seems to grow stronger by the minute. The thing is, Carter seems to be a little experimental too and that only makes things more confusing for them both. In the hands of a lesser writer, this would end up a disaster on the page, but Jay deftly weaves the emotions and circumstances for both guys as they figure out the place they’ve got in each other’s lives as it evolves through the school year. I cheered for the good and wanted to protect them through the bad since my fifty-year-old self could vividly recall how confusing seventeen was. Bobby’s integrated deeply into their year too. He’s a friend of Carter’s and that mean’s Andrew is around Bobby far more than he likes–and he ends up putting up with more crap that he should. Andrew accepts dealing with that because he doesn’t want to lose Carter. It’s made even harder when Carter starts dating Bobby’s ex, Olivia. Along the way another of Bobby’s friends, Jackson, becomes tight with Andrew too, creating more bonds in the group. The evolution of Andrew and Jackson’s friendship is as interesting as Andrew and Carter’s. Things get rough in the last quarter of the book. Bobby doesn’t like the changes happening to his group and he plots revenge. I have to warn here that not only does bullying happen throughout the story at varying levels but as we get into the last act there’s also off-page sexual assault and a pretty epic final battle where Andrew, Carter and the group are in way over their heads. Again, Jay does an excellent job of telling the story, ratcheting tensions and putting characters–and readers–through the wringer. The epilogue was the icing on top of this cake. Jumping twenty years into the future, we find out where everyone ended up. There were some surprises here that made me go “awwww.” It provided the perfect ending. What this book excelled at was showing friendships up close–what makes them grow, what rips them apart, and most importantly, what can make a true friend for life. It also shows, perhaps too intensely for some readers, the lengths people can go to in order to protect a relationship even if it’s toxic. I can’t commend Jay enough for how well he did all of this. Kudos to Kirt Graves too. I know well from TJ Klune’s Green Creek series that Kirt can handle a large cast of characters and high emotional impact. Kirt is perfection here handling the emotional rollercoaster without sending it over the top. His performance adds perfectly to what Jay had on the page. I highly recommend Straight Boy by Jay Bell, just make sure you’re ready for the ride. Interview Transcript - Julian Winters, Kim Fielding & Venona Keyes, S.A. Stovall This transcript was made possible by our community on Patreon. You can get information on how to join them at patreon.com/biggayfictionpodcast. Interview with Julian Winters Jeff: We are at the LA Times Festival of Books with Julian Winters. Julian: Hi. Jeff: Who I’ve just had a major fanboy moment over. Julian: I had fanboy moments. Jeff: Okay. We kinda both had the fanboy moment. Julian: Yes, yes. It is equal. Jeff: Because I had to get him to sign my “Running with Lions.” Podcast listeners know that was one of my favorite books of last year. Julian: Thank you. Jeff: And you’ve got a little sneak peek… Julian: I do. Jeff: Right now of “How To Be Remy Cameron,” which comes out September 10th. Julian: Yes, yes. September 10th, yes. Jeff: Tell us what this is about. Julian: Remy is a very personal book. It’s about an out and proud teen in high school, who has always felt like he’s known himself until he has this AP lit course. And one of the final grades he has to write an essay about who am I and it’s like the make or break essay. He’s trying to get into Emory University, and he needs this course in order to get there. And so, he has this kind of panic mode of, “Okay, but who am I?” Because he’s always been defined by, “Oh, he’s the gay kid who came out at 14,” or, “Oh, he’s one of five black students that go to our school,” or “Oh, he’s the big brother to this character,” and he’s just all these labels he wears all the time. He’s, “This is who I am.” But then he starts to realize, “Is that all I am and do these labels really define exactly who Remy Cameron is?” So, it’s kinda an exploration of what labels mean to us, but it also has a great family dynamic. A couple of secret mystery parts I can’t tell you about but there’s a lot of guessing games going on in it. And of course, it wouldn’t be me if I didn’t have like a dorky romance in there. So, that’s in there too. Jeff: A dorky romance? I like that because that’s… Julian: Yes, that’s exactly what I promise you. It’s so geeky, it’s so dorky. Jeff: That’s kind of what “Lions” was as well for sure. That’s a good label for it. How would you say that your writing has evolved from first book to second? Julian: Oh, it’s a lot. A lot. With the first book, I just kinda wanted to write the feel-good story, and that was my goal, and touching on certain issues throughout the book. And it also was written in third person and “Remy’s” written in first person. I’ve never, not even when I was like a small child, wrote in first person. I love reading books like that, but I thought, I just can’t do that, it’s just too personal. And so, it was a challenge doing that, but it was a lot of fun. And “Remy,” like I said, it’s very personal, so exploring parts of myself and things that I see throughout, you know, our community and things like that. It really helped me grow as a writer to really say, Okay, you can challenge yourself and you can fail at it, but you can also improve. And that was great. So, to fail, I struggled so much in the beginning, but to have that under my belt now, it’s I think I could write a lot of different stories. Jeff: So, you think you’ll visit first again sometimes? Julian: Oh, yeah, yes, yes. The next book I’m working on, first might be where I’m stuck now. I think this might be my calling. I don’t know. Jeff: Okay. I could tell you, first is a nice place to be. Julian: Yeah, it is. Jeff: What are some elements of this book that are so personal to you? Julian: Growing up. So, I grew up in Upstate New York where I was one of five black students at my school. And then when we moved to Georgia, I was one of 400 that went to my school. So, it’s very personal in the sense of, I went through a lot of phases of am I too gay? Am I black enough? Am I too perfect as a friend? Am I good enough friend? A lot of things that I went through, Remy goes through in the book. It also explores my love for a lot of geeky things and how for a while I wouldn’t let that define me because I thought, “Oh, no, this is bad, people are gonna make fun of me.” And Remy goes through that because he had a lot of geeky moments, but it’s almost like he’s scared to show them now that he knows that these are the things that I’m defined by. Jeff: I love that you point out the geeky thing because I saw on your Instagram earlier today of the comic books that you read into here at the Festival. Julian: Listen, I almost had to leave, you know, our booth just to go, you know, bow down at the comic book booth and just say, “Listen, thank you. I love it.” Jeff: Now, let’s talk about “Lions” for a second because you’ve had an amazing year. I mean, you started out of the gate that the book was blurbed by Becky Albertalli. Julian: Yeah. Jeff: And now, just within the last week or two, you’ve won an award for it. So, tell us a little bit about that. Julian: It’s been a wild journey because, first of all, like, I never thought I’d meet Becky Albertalli, I never thought I’d talk to her, I never thought, you know, I would become friends with her. And then just meeting all the other people along the way that I’ve met and growing in that area… I always felt like I was the kid sitting at the table in the corner where I peek over at all the cool kids and say, “Yeah, I’m never sitting at that table,” but it’s been kinda really awesome being taken in by so many different people and I never thought I’d be an award-winning author. Like, I wanted to write the book for queer kids to enjoy, to see themselves and know that, you know, you’re not some other subcategory, you’re just a normal person. It’s just that…this is just a part of you, it doesn’t define you. And to win an award, I broke down crying. It wasn’t something I was expecting going into this because my journey has always been about the reader but to have something for myself was amazing. It still is amazing. I’m not over it. I guess I won’t be over it until I actually hold the award in my hands and say, “This happened.” Jeff: This actually happened. And the cover too, which was a stunning cover, also won. Julian: Yes, the cover won for best cover. And that was so great for me in the sense that I love our cover designer, C.B. Messer. She’s amazing. She reads all the books cover to cover. And so, she knows these characters, she knows their stories, and what she did with that cover just blew me away. What she did with the “Remy” cover, I’m still in complete awe of just how well she knows these characters. Jeff: When we talked back last year, the book had hardly been out. Julian: Yeah. Jeff: How’s the reader response been to it? Julian: It’s been amazing. Today just alone, just so many people will walk by and say, “Oh my gosh, ‘Running with Lions,’ I’ve heard of that book.” And I’m just like, “What? Of all the books that came out in 2018, you heard of that book?” The response has been amazing. Going to the events and having people walk up to me and say, “Thank you for writing this book because I played soccer all my life, but there was never a queer soccer book.” Or, “Thank you for writing this because there weren’t a lot of books with bisexual main characters, or characters that were gay and Muslim, or black characters, or whatever.” It’s been amazing, the response I get. I get teary-eyed every time. I’m like, “I’m not strong enough for this, we can’t talk about this.” But it’s also been so cool to know that I’m helping someone see themselves because I didn’t always get that opportunity growing up. So, to know I’m getting to be a part of their journey, it’s just been amazing. Jeff: Fantastic. And what have you thought of the fair, of the festival? Because it’s your first time up here. Julian: Yes, this is my first time here for the festival. And I was talking to another friend about it because I went to YALLWEST last year. YALLWEST is this…it’s nice little corner and then this is like a whole city. Like, I get lost every time I go either to the bathroom or get something to drink. But it’s amazing because it brings so many different publishers, so many different books together, so many different genres, so many different kinds of authors are here. And that’s the amazing part to me, just to know how influential books are because there are people everywhere all the time, stacks of books in their arms. And you don’t really get to see that in, like, media, like how impactful books are, how much people really enjoy the art that we put out there. So, this has just been amazing to watch how excited people get when they see the books. Jeff: Yeah, it’s been very cool here. So, thank you so much for hanging out with us. Julian: Thank you. You know, I love you guys. Jeff: Best of luck on “How To Be Remy Cameron,” coming out September 10th. Interview with Kim Fielding and Venona Keyes Jeff: We are at the Los Angeles Times Festival of Books with Kim Fielding and Venona Keyes. Thanks for being here. Kim: Thanks so much. Venona: Thanks for asking. Jeff: We’re excited to have you both here. And now, Kim, of course, within the past couple of weeks, we’ve raved about the “The Spy’s Love Song” and the new “Dreamspun Desires.” Where did the inspiration for this book come from? Because it was so good. Kim: I think a big part of the inspiration came from my travels in Eastern Europe. So, you know, thinking about the way things used to be in Eastern Europe and how things are changing, plus politics as they’re happening right now. And so, yeah, I think that was the main thing. Jeff: What kind of research did you have to do to develop your spy and your rock star who becomes kind of…along on this mission without even knowing he’s on it? Kim: I didn’t have to do too much research on the spy part or on the travel part, but rock stars and music is not something I know anything or have any talent or anything else about, so that was where I had to do most of my research because I don’t know what it’s like. I don’t know what it’s like to be a rock star. I can’t even sing. Jeff: Does that mean you what it’s like to be a spy? Kim: Hmm, I’m not…I can’t divulge. Venona: You have kids. Kim: Yeah, I have kids. Jeff: And you wrote song lyrics too? Kim: I did. Yeah, I know. And it was really fun. And then in the audio version, my narrator Drew Bacca sang them, which was so cool. And it’s like, this is the closest I’m ever gonna get to being a songwriter. And it’s so much fun to listen to. And I can pretend, you know, like, I’m the next thing. Jeff: Which actually raises the question, did you give him an idea of what the melody for it was or did he just kind of make that up? Kim: I had no melody in mind. I didn’t know he was gonna sing. When I write a book, I’m sorry narrators, I don’t think about what I’m doing to my narrators. And so, sometimes I torture them, and I wasn’t even thinking about a narrator singing it. So, that was his idea and I was so pleased. Jeff: And this is a little different in “Dreamspuns” as well and I noted it in my review that you are a single point of view here. Did you go into it deliberately that way or just kind of organically discovered it was the way to go? Kim: It made more sense for this book because there’s some surprises about our spy character and I think it’s a lot more fun if we kinda discover the surprises along with the other character rather than knowing right from the start. So, you know, for some books, the dual point of view works really well, but for this one, I think this works well. Jeff: Yeah, I totally agree on that. Now, this is part of a bigger series that’s happening within the “Dreamspuns.” Kim: It is. Jeff: Tell us a little bit about the series overall. Kim: Sure. So, this series is called “Stars from Peril” and this is the first book in it. The second book comes out next month, and that’s “Redesigning Landry Bishop.” And the third book, I just finished the first round of edits on. It’ll be out in October and that one is “Drawing the Prince.” We went over several titles on that one. And so, what all three of them have in common is the main characters are from the same small town in Nebraska called Peril, Nebraska. And all three main characters have made it big in some way. So, our first guy is a rock star, our second guy is kind of a Martha Stewart type, and the third guy is an artist. And so, they’ve made it big in the world and they meet someone. And so, you can read each of them as a standalone and in any order you want to, but you’ll kind of see the characters appearing a little bit in one another’s story. Jeff: It didn’t even click for me that it was the name of the town too because peril plays into their own peril. Kim: Exactly. And I honestly cheated a little bit on that. There is a real town, a tiny little town, I think there’s like 60 people in it, in Nebraska called Hazard, Nebraska. So, Peril. Jeff: Peril, Hazard, it works. Kim: And it’s a great name. Jeff: Now, people may be wondering, why do we have both of them here together? Well, Venona and Kim also co-write. Tell us about that book. Venona: “Running Blind.” I will tell you this came about some years ago in Portland at our Dreamspinner meetup and she pulls me aside. Now, you have to understand that I was such a fan of Kim. I love “Brute”, I loved all of her stuff. And then she’s talking to me and I’m like, “You sure you’re talking to me because, you know, I don’t, like, co-write. I’m really bad at, you know, doing it by myself.” And she goes, “Oh, yeah, I heard on NPR…” And that’s how it started. Because Peter Sagal who’s out of Chicago hosts, “Wait, wait, Don’t Tell Me.” He is a running guide for blind people for marathons.” So, she had the idea and we came up with “Running Blind.” Kim: And the reason why Venona was such a perfect choice is because, unlike me, she does triathlons. So, I didn’t have to do the research on marathon running. Venona: No, or running guides either. Stuff like, “Yeah. That’s your department,” I’m like, “All right, we can do this.” And it’s a wonderful book and we decided that we wanted to have a second story because in the beginning, and it’s not giving a spoiler away, is Kyle and Matt who have been friends, who went to college together, were friends, became lovers, and now they’re in a comfortable pattern, and they really love each other but as brothers rather than lovers. So, when something happens to Kyle, Kyle breaks it off and he goes, “You gotta go do stuff.” And Matt’s reluctant, but this story is about Kyle and how he deals with the things that have happened in his life. So, the next book that we’re writing, the working title is “Playing,” is Matt’s story about how he finds romance after the breakup. Jeff: And when do we get to see that one come out? TBD. Venona: TBD. Kim: Well, that one is still in progress. Venona: It’s still in progress. It’s now in my hands. And so, we switch back and forth when we write, and I need to get it back to Kim. So, hopefully soon. Jeff: And you’ve got some other co-writing coming too? You’re working with Shira Anthony as well. Venona: Shira Anthony, it is another story. It’s actually about a farmer and a city boy. So, that one is coming up soon and that’s an honor of a friend of ours from GRL. So, we’re writing a story about a farmer which he is and who’s not out and a city boy who is. So, it’s a lot of fun. We already have the outline and we’re just getting started on writing that as well too. Jeff: Very cool. Anything else coming up we should know about? Venona: Yes. “How to Become a K-pop Idol,” I am writing that one by myself. We might get a co-writer on that one, you never know. But that one is, if people aren’t familiar with this, I love Korean culture, a lot of Asian culture, Japanese, Korean. I’m learning Korean. I’ve been a K-pop fan since 2009 proudly with the Big Bang. Jeff: Before it was cool. Venona: Before it was cool. And my bias is right now, because Big Bang, if you don’t know in Korea, you have to go in for military service mandatory by the time you’re 30. So, a lot of the K-pop idols are going in. So, new ones are coming up. So, the third gens right now is BTS, if you’ve not heard of Bangtan Sonyeondan, BTS, they’re really big. They’re the band that I’m following right now. Jeff: Very cool. Anything coming up for you, Kim, a part from the Peril series? Kim: Yes, start of the Peril series at the end of this month, so April 30th. I’ve got a new novella coming out. So, if people who are following my “Bureau” series, there’ll be a new novella in that. And I wanna push that because I give all my royalties for that to Doctors Without Borders. So, this is the fourth story in that series, but you can read them as standalones too. Venona: And they’re awesome stories too, I love those. Kim: Thanks. Jeff: And what have you guys thought of the festival? Venona: You know, this is the first time I’ve been here, and it is awesome. There’s just so many people here, there’s so many different books, and you get to browse them all at the same time instead of in a little bookstore somewhere. So, yeah. Kim: And it’s been a lot of fun just kinda hanging out with everybody, LA is fun. So, it’s been a lot of fun. Jeff: Very cool. Well, thanks for hanging out with us for a few minutes. Kim: Thanks so much. Venona: Thanks for asking us. Interview with S.A. Stovall Jeff: And we’re at the LA Times Festival of Books with S.A. Stovall. Thanks so much for being here with us. S.A.: Well, thank you for having me. It’s super exciting. Jeff: Now, you’re the author of “Vice City,” it’s currently two books in the series. Tell us a little bit about what the series is? S.A.: It’s a crime thriller like a noir style. Ironically, if you’ve ever read “Sin City,” which is a graphic novel, it’s kind of similar to that. I used to work at a courthouse and I got a lot of green, was an attorney and all that. I don’t do that anymore because it’s a little depressing, but I used some of my experience in that to write the series. And I really like redemption stories and like criminals turning it around. That’s what I did in the courts is I helped a lot of drug addicts get to rehab and turn their life around. And so, I’m really into that kind of story. So, the series follows an ex-mobster who like, you know, leaves the mob and then becomes a private detective, and then, you know, shenanigans ensue. Jeff: Shenanigans ensue? S.A.: Yeah. Jeff: And he’s consistent through the series? S.A.: He’s the main viewpoint. There’s a romance a subplot in which he falls in love with like a police academy cadet, and obviously, that’s his in to the police and you know, again, more shenanigans ensue that way. In the sequel book that just came out, one of the subplots is that a police officer suspects the main character’s actual identity, that he had connections to the mob and used to be a mob enforcer. And so, he’s out to prove that it’s him. And so, you know, it’s a thriller story so it’s got lots of thrills. Jeff: Mystery, suspense, thrills, it’s all there. S.A.: Yes, exactly. Jeff: What got you into starting to write these books? S.A.: So, I had a friend who really likes Dreamspinner Press and I used to write just books like short stories for my D&D group, because they really liked, you know, fantasy, all that kind of stuff. So, I wrote short story fantasies and she was like, “My God, you should write me a Dreamspinner-style novel, like, that’s what you should write for me.” And I was like, “Okay, I don’t know if I can do it as good as all these other people, but I’ll try.” And I wrote “Vice City” for her specifically. I even put that in the dedication. I’m like, “It’s just for you.” I didn’t think that it would go anywhere because, you know, I was just like, “Okay.” But I got an agent after I wrote this and then the agent sold it to Dreamspinner and then they published it for the DSP line because that’s where they do genre stuff. Jeff: It doesn’t necessarily have the romance in it, right? S.A.: Yeah. Well, mine does but it’s not the focal point. The focal point is the, you know, mystery and the mobster story. So, I was very surprised. I didn’t think it would go anywhere but it totally went somewhere. So, every time somebody is like, “Oh, I don’t know if I should write a novel,” there’s a piece of me that’s like, “Man, I just wrote that novel willy-nilly. So, you should try, you should do it. You should try.” Now admittedly, you know, I was writing before I wrote this because I wrote other stories and short stories, but still, if you’re thinking about it, you should just do it, you know. Don’t even think to yourself, “Oh, nobody will read this,” because I kinda thought, “Nobody’s gonna read a crime noir.” You know what I’m saying? Like, I was like, “That’s old school, nobody reads that kind of stuff anymore.” But no, people do, and people like it. So, I was really happy. Jeff: And you noted that the second book just came out. Do you have plans for third? S.A.: Yeah. Jeff: What is yet to come? S.A.: I’m about halfway through the third book and it’s a true series in the sense that it could go for as long as I want it or, you know, that kind of thing. It’s not like a trilogy or a set thing like, “Oh, something needs to happen.” But, you know, as a private investigator, anything can happen, you know, all sorts of shenanigans can ensue. Jeff: Very true, very true. S.A.: But there is a connecting theme. The whole reason that it’s the vice enforcer is that the mob that he used to work for was the vice family, and they’re still around by book three so you can kinda see the, like, he’s trying to take them down one by one. And so, I guess I could be limited to and then it got the whole vice family and then the series is over. But, you know, there’s that connecting thread too. Jeff: Now, that you’ve been writing in this genre, do you wanna expand out to other genres or is noir thriller kind of your sweet spot? S.A.: Well, it’s just a thing that I like a lot, that I thought, you know, nobody likes this anymore, but I like it. I wrote “Modern Gladiator” which is just a pure romance for Dreamspinner. It was a sports romance with UFC fighter. Jeff: Oh, cool. S.A.: I, a few years back, was dating a guy who was in the UFC. And so, I just used all of that experience to write a sports romance. And I know a lot about, you know, wrestling and all that kind of stuff just from him. And I put a lot of that kind of information in the book and it literally just came out about two weeks ago. Yeah, “Modern Gladiator” came out. And then I do a lot of fantasy and science fiction on the side as well. So, I mean, all sorts of things, all crazy things. Jeff: Very cool. Now you’re also an artist? S.A.: Yes, that’s true. Jeff: While she’s been here doing her signings and such, she’s also been doing caricatures of people who get their book signed. And so, we had this one done of us. It is so freaking adorable. How did this get started for you? S.A.: I’ve just always drawn things. I like doodling. I was really into comic books at a point in my life. I mean, so many comic books and manga. I mean, anything that was drawn and kind of that like storybook style with the panel, super loved. But I didn’t really intend for it to go anywhere. I went and got my history degree, I got a law degree. I wasn’t like, “Man, I need to study art.” But I did at least doodle enough that I was like, “I’m mildly good, you know.” And when I went to my first ever book fair, I thought, “I can’t just be the schmoe who’s standing in a booth trying to peddle their book, because I’m gonna be like 50 other people in the road doing the exact same thing. I should try and do something that’s at least enticing or to get people to read my stuff.” And I figured, “Hey, I could try a little caricature, and while I’m drawing them, they can read my book. And if it’s enticing enough, you know, they’ll buy the book, or they’ll feel guilty enough to buy the book, you know, I don’t know, whatever gets them to buy the book.” And a lot of people usually give me comments right away. Like, the first line in “Vice City,” everybody always comments, well, not everybody but like 80% of people. The first line is, “Getting hit with a wrench hurts.” And, so many people either laugh or comment like, “Oh my God, what a good line,” and I’m like, “Yeah.” And the first chapter in “Vice City” is an interrogation of that police cadet. So, Pierce, the mobster, is interrogating this guy who he thinks is a police mole. So, it’s really intense, you know, high stakes going on. I really like that first chapter and it usually hooks people. So, they read that first chapter while I’m drawing them and, bam, that’s my sales strategy. Don’t steal it. I’m joking, everybody can use it. Jeff: It’s all her’s. S.A.: Anybody can do it. Jeff: But the key is, like, I could never draw. There’s no way I’d do this, I’d have to find another hook. S.A.: I’ve been successful with it. People typically like that. And the caricatures are free. I just give them to people. So, even if they don’t buy the book, you know, it’s fine. Jeff: And it’s awesome watching her do them. We watched as she did ours. It’s like, “Oh my God, there we are just manifesting on the page.” It was very cool. Well, thank you so much for hanging out with us a little bit. One last question, what have you thought of the fair? S.A.: It’s good. There are a lot of people here though. I mean, just thousands of people all over the place. Going to the food trucks was fun, although not during lunchtime. There’s like a mile-long line from here to the sun and back. Nobody wants to do that. But the food trucks are good, the people seem to be really nice, and I don’t know, it’s just a good time. Jeff: Excellent. Well, thank you so much for spending a little bit of time with us. S.A.: Thank you for having me again, like, super awesome.

The guys open the show with a discussion of the Netflix original Unicorn Store. Jeff reviews Bad to the Bone by Nicki Bennett. Will reviews LaQuette’s Under His Protection. Jeff & Will interview LaQuette about Under His Protection. They find out about the story’s inspiration and how it ties into LaQuette’s other series. LaQuette also shares details on her upcoming Harlem Heat series, what got her started writing romance and details about what she does as the president for New York City’s Romance Writers of America chapter. Complete shownotes for episode 184 are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Book Reviews from this week: Bad to the Bone by Nicki Bennett. Reviewed by Jeff Bad to the Bone turned out to be one of those perfect Dreamspun Desires for me. I’m a sucker for second chance romance combined with friends to lovers and this one adds in a bit from the redeemed bad boy trope as well. It all combined to give me exactly the read that I needed. The story kicks off on the eve of a high school reunion taking place in a small Oklahoma town. Alex Morrison has been back in town for several years, taking over his family’s hardware store when his parents needed him to. One afternoon, while working with his sister at the store, they witness a motorcyclist pulled over and it’s soon revealed that the man is Alex’s high school bestie, Ricky Lee Jennings. Alex hasn’t heard from Ricky Lee since he was expelled and sent away to reform school. Alex regretted he didn’t defend Ricky Lee and prevent the expulsion, but he was scared he’d lose his football scholarship if he did. Sparks fly at the reunion when Ricky Lee shows up without a ticket and Alex gets him in as his guest. What unfolds over the coming weeks is the rekindling of far more than a friendship. Nicki does so much with this rather simple set up. Both characters complexity made me love this book so much. Alex is someone I wanted to wrap up in a comforting hug. He does so much for the community that he lives in between serving on the library board, working for Habitat for Humanity, helping out with the high school reunion committee, and anything else he can do to help his fellow citizens. Yet, all he can see in himself is failure from a lost college football career because of an injury, a failed marriage, and even coming back to manage his family business is something he considers a fail because he gave up his dreams of being an environmental lobbyist. Of course, what he’s done is made the decisions that are right in the moment but he can’t see that. Ricky Lee, on the other hand, subverts every stereotype the town has for him. It’s awesome to watch as people who believe they know exactly who he is after ten years begin to see who he has become. He’s far from the young man who was abused by his alcoholic father and just wanted to survive high school. As both relive their high school times and share what they are doing now, Ricky Lee and Alex are drawn back together. Alex, however, is sure this can’t be more than a fling. He’s scared of revealing himself as bisexual to the town and there’s no way Ricky Lee will move back to Oklahoma since he’s got a life in Portland. The wooing that Ricky Lee does with Alex is outstanding. I love a good date and their weekend trip to Oklahoma City is all that. They stay at a boutique hotel, go to art museums and the botanical gardens and eat delicious food. The sizzling sex made the date all the hotter. It showed Alex in vivid detail what life could be like in if he decides to make a go of it with Ricky Lee. The other depth that Nikki weaves into this book is the town Alex lives in. In particular, I liked the local pastor, who is nothing like what you might expect a southern pastor to be. He turns out to be one of Alex’s biggest supporters in being true to himself. We also see Alex’s work with the library, which is a central subplot for the story since Alex and Ricky Lee’s high school nemesis, Odell, who wants to expand his car dealership by buying the land the library sits on. The goings-on with Odell took some wonderful turns that I couldn’t have predicted and I might’ve cheered just a little when everything was revealed and [spoiler alert] Odell gets his. It’s a great ending for a high school bully. There’s a tremendous cast of supporting characters too. Alex’s sister Alana and his best friend, local police officer Samantha, a.k.a. Sam, both nudge Alex in the right direction. Ricky Lee comes to town with Crae, who he introduces as his friend and assistant although many initially think they are in a relationship. I actually wish Crae had had more screen time in the book as they were a fascinating character. Crae and Sam develop a friendship that might be more and I’d love to see a book that explores that. There are also some townsfolk who have interesting reveals to Alex along the way that were incredibly sweet. And if audio is your thing, certainly pick this one up. Colin Darcy is a new-to-me-narrator and boy did he make me swoon with his voice for Ricky Lee–deep, rumbly sexiness. If you’re looking for a great category romance with some very tropey goodness, I highly recommend Nicki Bennett’s Bad to the Bone. Under His Protection by LaQuette. Reviewed by Will. This book literally starts with a bang when one of our main characters, assistant DA Camden, is nearly blown up by a car bomb. In order to keep him safe, he’s put in protective police custody. Unfortunately, the man watching over him is the memorable one night stand he walked away from five years ago, a guy named Elisha. Sequestered away in Elisha’s Westchester house, our two heroes must come to grips with the attraction that still, after all this time, is still there. As things start to become more romantic, the situation becomes even more complicated when Elisha’s family shows up for a weekend visit. They assume that the two of them are a couple and Cam and Elijah play along since it’s too dangerous to explain why Cam is hiding out at Elijah’s house. Over the course of the weekend Cam can’t help but fall for Elisha and his wonderfully crazy family. You might think things get a little too close for comfort with are two heroes and the family all in one house. Elisha actually has a very small apartment in his attached garage. They escape there every once in a while, for some truly superduper scorching sex. The chemistry between these characters is very real and very palatable. As the weekend winds down, there’s an unfortunate kidnapping attempt by this crazy religious group and Cam sacrifices himself in order to save Elisha’s mom. Camden ends up in hospital and, unfortunately, his father arrives on the scene. Camden’s life has essentially been controlled by his father, who’s had his son’s life planned out from my birth to death. It’s essentially how Cam has lived his entire life. The expectations of his father are actually part of the reason why he walked away from Elisha five years ago. Having a sexy one night fling and living a life with an average guy like Elisha just wasn’t in the plan. After experiencing the possibility of loving a man like Elisha and realizing the wonderful possibilities of a fun and fulfilling family life, he tries to stand up to his father. Cam’s father puts a stop to everything, setting up some genuinely insurmountable roadblocks to our hero’s happiness. But Cam and Elisha are not only charismatic and sexy, but also really super smart. With the help of Elisha’s police chief friend, Cam concocts a way to outwit his father and get out from under his thumb, so he Elisha can live happily ever after. I don’t know if I can adequately find the correct words, or enough adjectives to tell you how much I loved Cam and Elisha’s story. It’s just really damn good. One of my favorites of 2019 so far!   I hope it’s obvious that I really enjoyed Under His Protection by LaQuette and I highly recommend that everyone give it a read. Interview Transcript - LaQuetteWill: We are so pleased to welcome LaQuette to the show. Welcome. LaQuette: Thank you. Will: So I just spent several minutes praising and telling the entire world how much I loved "Under His Protection." Now, you've been writing for a while now, and I freely admit this is the very first book of yours that I have read, and I went absolutely bonkers for it. I love it to pieces. LaQuette: Oh, thank you. Will: Can you give us sort of an idea of where the concept for "Under His Protection" came from? LaQuette: Well, I was encouraged by Kate McMurray to submit a "Dreamspun Desires" concept. And I kind of read the submission guideline, and I really didn't think that the category section was for me, because I'm long-winded in my writing and there's this, you know, 50,000-word count, and I didn't know that I could meet that and make the story make sense. But I just felt like, you know, there's a lot of angst in my writing and a lot of heavy topics sometimes. And I didn't... You know, category can be light and, you know, it doesn't have so much angst to it, so I wasn't sure if it was actually the right fit for me. But she encouraged me to do it anyway. So I thought, "Well, if I'm gonna do it, it has to be, like, LaQuette style. It can't be, you know, the traditional map of a category. I've gotta throw, you know, everything but the kitchen sink in it." And I had this sort of, like, this Prince and Pauper sort of situation in my head, but in Brooklyn. And it worked out really well in my head anyway. I really enjoy the idea of Camden coming from this really, really posh existence, and then clashing with Elijah and his very loud and boisterous family. And, I think, putting those two people together and those two, you know, with their backgrounds and differences in their backgrounds and the differences in their, you know, perspectives in life, it really...it just made for a richer experience for me, as a writer. Will: I utterly fell in love with Camden and Elijah. I think they're two incredibly...they are exceptional heroes, and they're part of what makes this book really sing. But as I mentioned in my review just a few minutes ago, part of what, I think, what makes the story compelling and even more enjoyable is the sort of supporting cast that helps them along in their journey towards saying, "I love you." Elijah's family is amazing, every single one of them. But I was particularly struck by one of Elijah's co-workers, the police chief, who is his best friend, along with, you know, being a colleague. And what I was struck by is that at the beginning of the book, the character seemed, you know, pretty, you know, straightforward, it was a secondary character, and she was there to kind of like, you know, get the story moving along. But as we read further and get to know Camden and Elijah more and more, she becomes a much more integral part of the story. And in fact, she's pretty vital to the solution that Cam comes up towards the end. And I was really surprised to read in an interviewer just, I think, this last week it appeared online. I learned that one of the reasons that this secondary character is so well-drawn is because she's actually already had her own book. LaQuette: She's had three books, actually. Will: Can you tell us real quickly, for our listeners, can you tell us about the origin of this particular character and why you thought she would be such a good fit for Camden and Elijah's story? LaQuette: Captain Heart Searlington is a character from my "Queens of Kings" series, which is all heroine-centered. And she is this...you know, her name is Heart for a reason, because she has a huge heart, even though she really carries it under this gruff exterior. She's a badass, she's all about getting work done. And if you ever get the chance to read her books, you know, she's really out there hands-on in the street. And I felt like Elijah would need someone like that, professionally and personally, to kind of...to get him to the place where he could admit his flaws. Someone that's not... You know, he's a very...he's a large man, he's aggressive, you know, he carries a gun, so he could be a little bit intimidating for the average person. But for her, she's not afraid to tell him like it is to his face. And, you know, when you have that kind of a personality where people might not tell your truth because they find you imposing, having someone who will speak the truth to you, regardless of whatever the situation is, can be vital to you, you know, making the right choices in life. And I felt like having her there would give him that balance, because he needed some really cold truths told to him, for him to get his head together and do what he needed to do. Jeff: Was it always your intention to have the character crossover or did that just kind of manifest itself? LaQuette: Well, the precinct that they work at is sort of anytime I have a police situation, those cops show up in a book somewhere. So one, because, you know, the world is already created, so it's kind of easy for me to draw from that precinct, but it's also because my readers absolutely adore this woman. And so they're always asking for her, and this was an opportunity for her to show up and say, "Hi." And not in a way that overshadows, you know, the main story, which is Camden and Elijah, but just enough to make readers go, "Oh, my God. She's here." Jeff: It's always good to get those universe crossovers and little Easter eggs like that, for sure. LaQuette: It's true. It's very true. Will: Yeah. Now, "Under His Protection" is not your first M/M romance. LaQuette: No, it is not. Will: There's also "Love's Changes," which I believe came out in 2016? LaQuette: Yes. Will: And I wanted to ask you, what drew you to writing in this specific subgenre? I mean, along with all of your other books that are more traditional male/female romances? LaQuette: Well, one, I wholeheartedly believe that everyone deserves a happy ending. And when I wrote the "Queens of King" series, I always knew that Heart's cousin, because the characters, the protagonists in "Love's Changes" are Bryan, who is one of Heart's lieutenants, you met him, actually, in "Under His Protection," and her cousin, Justice. And so they get to have their own story. You get to see them a little bit in the "Queens of King" series, but they're more background. We know that they were having a hard time and they were broken up for some reason, but we don't know why. So they get, you know, readers... Which really surprised me because I didn't really believe that there was a lot of crossover between male-female readers and male-male readers. But people really asked me for a story for those two. Like, "When are we gonna get Justice and Bryan's story? We wanna know what happens to them and how they get back together." And so I that story was actually born out of the fact that readers requested it, and so I gave it to them. Jeff: That's very cool. You know, it's always nice to see as the M/F readers catch the male-male pairing to then want to know more. LaQuette: Yes, it was really a trip for me. I did not believe that they would want it at all. But it was very touching to write their story. I was very happy with how the story turned out. I was very happy with the fact that they get their happily ever after. And it's not...it's connected to the "Queens of Kings" series, but it's not really part of it. So the story kind of takes place outside of everything that's going on in that particular story. Jeff: Do you envision more, I guess, "Dreamspun Desires" books that happened in the universe you've created with everything that's going on so far? LaQuette: I really didn't, but I've been getting a lot of mail recently about this book. And, you know, people wanting to know what happens after this. They wanna see how Camden's family kind of blends with Elijah's family and how that's going to work. I'm like, "Dude, I'm not there. Like, I have so many other projects. I can't right now. But we'll come back to that maybe." Jeff: Just based on your review, I don't see how those families mesh. Will: Two different worlds. Most definitely, yeah. LaQuette: They really are. Jeff: Now, one of the things that I'm super excited about, having recently read about, is your new contract with Dreamspinner for "Harlem Heat." LaQuette: Yes, "Harlem Heat," so when stuff makes me mad, it also makes me really productive. So I was really kind of getting tired of hearing the "not historically accurate moniker" criticism given to African-American romance, especially historical African-American romance. And it just bothered me because it's not that those happily-ever-afters weren't possible. It's just people aren't really aware of the completed history. So a lot of thing...you know, a lot of people who think they know about African-American history, the only thing they know is slavery and Jim Crow, and that's it. And, you know, black people have been downtrodden since we were brought to this country. But that's not exactly the truth because even in all of the horror, there were still moments of triumph. And we didn't just, you know, survive, we thrived. We're still here, the proof that we're still here, you know, the proof that we had happiness at some point is that we're still here. So I decided I wanted to write about a time that was where to be black and to be gay wasn't something that you had to hide from the world. It wasn't something you had to...you had your own pocket of community. There was a celebration of it. And I wanted to speak to that. I wanted people to know that these two intersections of life existed with happy endings. Jeff: And this series, in particular, is gonna go to such an interesting time period in the U.S. when all of the Harlem Renaissance was happening. LaQuette: Yeah, so it's based on three actual people who lived during the Harlem Renaissance. So it's based on Bumpy Johnson, who was the godfather of Harlem for 30 years. It's based on Langston Hughes, who was a great contributor to the Harlem Renaissance as a poet and writer. And it's also based on Cab Calloway, who was sort of one of the most notable faces in jazz and jazz music and jazz performance at the Cotton Club. So we're gonna see... we won't be using their names, but those characters will be based off of those actual people. Will: Yeah, because it was...I think it was like mere moments after I finished reading "Under His Protection." I read about this Harlem Renaissance series that you were doing, and I like lost my mind. I was like, totally doing a happy dance. This is going to be so amazing. I know this is still far in the future. But when do you think we can expect this series? LaQuette: I don't know. And that's the God's honest truth. I'm actually currently writing, finishing up the series for Sourcebooks. And so "Harlem Heat" doesn't...I don't think I'm projected to start it until like the end of the year. So I don't know exactly when it's going to be ready. But I mean, you know, ready for the world anyway. But I think I can talk to someone about getting you a beta read...a copy for beta reading if you'd like. Jeff: Please do. Yes. Will: That would be amazing. Jeff: I imagine the research for that got to be a lot of fun to look at that period in history and figure out what parts you wanna take and use. LaQuette: It is. I mean, I was very fortunate when I was in college. When I did my undergrad in creative writing. I was very fortunate to have a professor who thought outside of the box, and he taught a class on Harlem Renaissance. That was amazing. I mean, it was so rich and filled with culture. And you know, not just the usual things that we see in mainstream history but, you know, getting really down to the nitty-gritty of it. And you know, showing you to...I'm sure that when you when you guys, as gay men, look at the history of the LGBT community, and you get to see it unfold, there's such a moment of connection there. And it's the same thing for black people when we're getting to experience our history because we don't often get to see it through mainstream lens. And so to see it and to see the information dispensed in a way that's positive and celebratory and uplifting, it changes your whole perception of yourself, of who you are and where you came from. And so I'm delighted to be able to dig back into that. I have Piper Huguley, who is a history professor at Spelman College. I believe it's Spelman. And she's also a romance writer, and she's brilliant. So she helps me with a great deal with telling me what books I need to read for this period, and where I need to look for information. But it's so much fun. It really is so much fun. Jeff: That's amazing. Let's talk origin story for a minute. How did you get started writing romance? What led you down this path? LaQuette: I didn't see me on the page. I started reading romance when I was about 16 years old. Way too young to be reading some of the stuff I was reading, but you know, hey. And by the time I was about 18, I probably went through every "Harlequin Presents" that my local library had. And every romance novel I read, it was never about a girl that looked like me, never about places where I lived. So it kind of pulled me out of the romance reading for a while because it was nice to read about those stories, but there was just something missing for me after a while. And I probably, at the time, didn't recognize that I was internalizing that these stories were basically saying, "Romance isn't for you. You don't look like this. You don't fit this mold, so romance isn't for you." And I kind of just pulled away from it. And I think after I finished my undergrad, I just wanted to relax and have some fun and I kind of got back into it. And at the time, I discovered black romance was a thing. And I discovered people like Rochelle Alers, and Brenda Jackson, and Zane. And I'm like, "Wow." Like, it became exciting again. It was refreshing. It was new and yet still very familiar because I could see myself in all of the antics that were going in these stories. I could see myself in those characters. And so I decided I wanted to do that. I wanted to create those spaces, create more stories like that so people could have those connections in reality, you know, reactions when they opened up a book and saw themselves. Jeff: Now that you are writing, what do you think the trademarks of your books are? LaQuette: I do sex and snark really well. Like, I do sarcasm really well because that's my language. It really is my language, and sex, yeah, that's so if you're gonna pick up a LaQuette book, you're going to get lots of sex and lots of sarcasm. Jeff: Did she meet those two in your book? Will: Oh, yeah. Just before we started this interview, we were talking about the possibilities of an audiobook for "Under His Protection." And whatever narrator lands this job is going to, number one, have the time of their life, because Camden and Elijah are very...the banter is very smart and very witty. But also, as you say, the sex scenes are...I'm not even sure what the correct adjective is. It's smoking hot. Yeah, you're gonna need a nice cool beverage after you listen to those scenes, for sure. LaQuette: I don't know that I could listen to that. I don't know that I could. It would be so weird for me. I don't know. I mean, I know I wrote the words, but to hear them aloud, I don't know that I could do that. Will: Exactly. Yeah. Jeff: Yeah, I know, you know, many authors can't listen to their own audio books. LaQuette: Especially those parts. Like I said, I do sex. Amy Lane told me, she was like, "You write sex in such a beautiful concrete way. Like, I just wanna have all the facts when I read your books." I'm like, "Amy, that is the sweetest and weirdest thing that anyone has ever said to me, and I love you for it." Jeff: That almost should be a blurb on the book cover or something. Will: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Jeff: Is there anything you're reading right now that you wanna shout out to people as like a book to grab? LaQuette: Oh, I'm reading a few books. So I just finished Adriana Herrera's...the third book in this "Dreamer" series, and I can't remember the title because it's not actually out yet. I beta read for her, and it is fantastic. I mean, book one is great and I love it. It was so real to me that literally, I had to drive like two to three miles from my house just to go get Dominican food, because I was so hungry after reading book one. Will: Exactly. Yes. Yeah. LaQuette: And book three does the same thing. There's lots of cultural food. And it's part of the tapestry of how these two people connect and share their backgrounds, their experiences, their worldviews. And not to mention, she's so good at writing books that are socially conscious without making you feel like you're being talked down to or preached at, and I love her for that, for being... I don't know that I could do that the way she does it. She's so talented. And I'm also reading...I'm halfway through...I stumble with her name because I know her as Blue Sapphire, but she's now writing as Royal Blue for Dreamspinner, "Kyle's Reveal." Will: Yeah, I've heard of this book, yeah. LaQuette: And I'm halfway through it. And, you know, she's fire, like, she writes hot books. So I'm really excited. I can't wait to get to the end of this book. Will: What was the name of that book again? LaQuette: "Kyle's Reveal." Will: Okay. And that's the...please remind me, is the basketball book, is that correct? LaQuette: Yes. Will: Okay, yes. LaQuette: I mean, it's kind of dark because the protagonists have like a really dark traumatic history. But it's definitely deep and I'm loving it. So I'm really, really, really interested in getting to the end to see if I could just get a minute to stop writing and finish it, I'd be great. Will: Awesome. Jeff: It's such a hard thing balancing. LaQuette: It is. Jeff: "I wanna to finish this book." Then it's like, "I don't wanna read it too fast." LaQuette: Exactly. Jeff: Finding that balance. LaQuette: It's true. Jeff: Are there tropes or genres that you wanna tackle that you just haven't yet in your own writing? LaQuette: I don't know that there are any tropes, because I kind of...I throw a lot of different tropes in my books. Like, "Under His Protection" has second chance romance, it also has proximity, it also has sort of kind of enemies to lovers the way Elijah and Camden started out in the book. And it could sort of kind of be considered like a workplace romance being that they're both involved in different sides of law enforcement. But I don't know. I mean, I've done secret baby before and I love that. That was really fun. And I've done...the only thing I haven't done is like May-December romances. So I think maybe that might be something I'd might want to try. Jeff: Cool. I would read that. I love a good May-December. Absolutely. So beyond the writing, which obviously takes up a lot of time, you also are the president of RWANYC. So the New York City chapter of Romance Writers of America. Tell folks what that entails and what actually led you to running for office. LaQuette: I didn't wanna run. I had no intention of running because I have a lot of stuff to do. And it takes time away from the things that I'm contracted to do. But one of the things that's very important in romance that's happening right now is the fact that romance can be a very whitewashed world, meaning the protagonists that we see, the authors that get the most opportunities are white authors and white characters. And so if you're not white... and straight characters. If you're not writing that, it's difficult to get into the door, it's difficult to find the same resources, the same backing. It's almost impossible to get contracts. And so I ran for president of RWANYC because I wanted, in some way, to help change that landscape, to do some of the work necessary with publishers to try to change that. And it's a heavy task, it's a heavy burden, especially when we get, you know, over the last couple of weeks, we are still reeling from the RITA Awards, which is basically like the Grammys for romance. And every year, it's the same thing. It's a very, very white landscape, and very few authors of color are made finalist. No black woman has ever won a RITA in the 30 years that this award has been established. And people do a lot of mental acrobatics to justify why that is. So "Oh, maybe the writing is just not that good. Maybe that's why we've never had a black RITA award winner. Maybe black authors are not entering." You know, these are also questions that are ridiculous, because statistically, it's just impossible that no black woman would ever have won in 30 years. It's just impossible. And the reason it is, is because the judging pool, there's a bias there in terms of black women and black characters, not just black authors, but black characters. Because you cannot know who the author is, but you cannot...well, I don't write characters who are racially ambiguous. I'm proud of my blackness and my characters are as well. And so I don't try to hide that or trick people into reading my books, or make it so difficult for people to recognize who a person is or what their background is because I feel like that is an important thing. In real life, we don't really get to not know who people are by looking at them. So I don't do it in my books. And because of that, it's very difficult when you know, going into this, "I'm gonna submit this book, and it's not going to final," not because it's a poorly written book, not because I didn't do everything I could to make this book as good as it could be, but simply because my characters, especially my heroines are black. And that is just something that the judging pool cannot handle as of yet. So my work as president is a lot of, you know, being the champion for this cause and taking on this battle because it's not just about me succeeding, it's about any black author who was writing black characters having the ability to write and be supported by the industry. And if I can make any sort of headway in that and if I can help anyone along the way, I'll feel like I've done something positive with my life. Will: With books like yours, and with Adriana Herrera, who you mentioned not too long ago, do you think it's really just a matter of representation that can help build awareness for diversity in romance or is there something else that readers, specifically, should be doing or asking for? LaQuette: Well, specifically, yeah. I mean, readers have a lot of power. So if you're asking publishers, you know, "Why don't we have more diverse romance? Why don't we have romance where...you know, that shows basically the colors of the rainbow and all those brilliant facets of intersectionality in life, like, why don't we have that?" Because your buying dollars is what demands, what makes the demand. Because publishers will say, "We don't sell that. We don't contract black books because they don't sell." One of the things we discussed at Dreamspinner was the cover. That was an intentional choice. I was very clear with them when we sat down and talked about this project that Elijah needed to be on the cover. I would not subscribe to the ideology that a black man on the cover can't sell. And there are...I mean, we've seen in our writing community that some publishing houses have actually made this statement. I don't subscribe to that. So we talked about it. And then we talked about the fact that readership sometimes can have a bias. And sometimes they won't engage with the book if they feel like the person is the wrong color or wrong background. And I said, "I understand that, but we're still gonna work...you know, to work with me, this is how we're gonna work." And they were in agreement. I didn't have to convince them. I went in prepared to battle. And it was like, "Listen, I really need this guy to be black and I really need him to look like this." And they were like, "We agree. We agree." So we need more of that in the industry. And it starts with readers. It also starts with the gatekeepers. People reaching out and specifically looking for these things. It also, people who are gatekeepers also need to check themselves. So when you're reading a book and you're saying, "I can't connect to it. I didn't relate to it." Why aren't you relating to it? Is it that it's a poorly written book? I've gotten rejection letters that literally said, "This is a really well-written book, but I didn't relate to the character, so I'm not gonna buy it." That doesn't really make a lot of sense, right? So what was it that you didn't relate to? If you could see that it was a really well-written book, I mean, if it's that good, why not work with me in terms of editing to kind of get things right, you know, to where it would be something that you feel is that you could sell. But a lot of publishing houses out there don't have that mentality. And it's this sort of...it's insidious. It's not something, you know, you can actually like, look and see. Some people don't even notice it. They just think, "Oh, I don't read those kinds of books because I don't like them." And it's not that they don't like them, it's that they've not actually giving them the opportunity to be great. Jeff: So that is, obviously, great words for the readers. Kind of spinning it back to your RWA role, you're in such a diverse chapter there because you're in NYC. LaQuette: Yeah. Jeff: How are the authors in that particular region banding together to like help RWA move past the issues? LaQuette: Oh, well, a lot of my recent successes, because, you know, allies, colleagues like Kate McMurray and Tere Michaels, are like, "Listen, you're fabulous, and we want you to meet people who will also think you're fabulous. So come here." And that's part of the beauty of RWA, and that's why I fight so hard for diversity and inclusion within RWA, because my success, as I said, my recent success has all been attached to people pushing me in different directions to say, "This is where you need to be. This is the person you need to meet." And if you're not a part of the organization, you can't make those connections. And networking connections will get you further than anything you know, right? So when we cut off authors of color from that source, from the resources, from the networking connections, and the opportunities that are presented to people who are part of the organization, what we're doing is we're disconnecting them from publishing. And we're forcing them to be indie. And this is not an indie versus trad conversation. This is... some people cannot be anything other than indie, because trad will not give them the opportunity. They've been completely marginalized. And so that should not be. People should be able to publish however they choose to, whether they up to be an indie author or whether they decide that the trad route is for them, because, you know, different strokes for different folks. It is different, you know, depending on what your lifestyle is like. I have crazy children and I have to juggle being a mom, a writer, and everything else and try to keep sane. Being an indie author is a lot of work. It's a lot of effort on your end to make a book successful. I don't have that kind of time in my life, or that kind of energy, honestly. So being a trad author is a much better avenue for me and my situation. And if that is the only way that I can publish, but publishing will not give me the opportunities, then it's, you know, I'm losing out. And that's the purpose of RWA to sort of bridge those gaps. But I don't think we're exactly where we need to be yet. So we're still working on it. Will: Yeah, definitely. Jeff: We very much appreciate your efforts towards that, for sure. Will: Now, the Romance Writers of America National Conference is going to be in NYC this summer. LaQuette: Absolutely. Will: And I expect you're going to be there. LaQuette: Oh, yeah. I wouldn't miss it for the world. Will: Yeah, we're actually making a trip for the first time this year as well. LaQuette: Yay. Will: So hopefully we will... I know it's gonna be crazy busy. But hopefully, we're gonna get a chance to say hi in person. LaQuette: It is. Absolutely. Jeff: For sure. Now, we talked about "Harlem Heat." You mentioned a couple other things. What is on your docket for the rest of this year for releases? LaQuette: I don't think I have any other releases this year because I'm writing. So I've been very blessed in that I have landed these two major contracts with Sourcebooks and with Dreamspinner, both for series. So I'm halfway through Source's books. And I need to start on Dreamspinner's toward the end of the year. So there won't be any more releases from me. I mean, if I get a moment where I'm, you know, feeling really creative, I might try to get a novella together. But I'm not making any promises. Jeff: All right, so we'll look for a lot more in 2020, for sure. LaQuette: Yeah, 2020 is definitely...the first book for Source comes out in 2020. I don't have a release date yet. I have delivery dates for Dreamspinner, but I don't have release dates yet. So I'm thinking probably sometime toward the end of 2020, possibly, or maybe the beginning of 2021. Jeff: All right. Well, when "Harlem Heat" comes out, you definitely have an invitation to come back and talk, for sure. LaQuette: Oh, yay. Thank you. Jeff: Now what's the best way for everybody to keep up with you online? LaQuette: Oh, so you can find me on Facebook at, you know, my Facebook page, LaQuettetheAuthor. You can find me on Twitter @LaQuetteWrites, or you can find me on Instagram at la_quette, or you can email me at laquette@laquette.com, or you can go to my website laquette.com. Will: Fantastic. Jeff: She's well branded, and everything is the same. Will: Most definitely. Well, LaQuette, it was a genuine honor to have you on the show today. LaQuette: Oh, thank you. Will: We're so glad that you could take some time out of your extremely busy schedule that you can come talk to us. LaQuette: Thank you for having me. I mean, I was so excited and a little bit nervous also, to come on and talk to you guys because I've seen the show before. And I'm like, "Yay, I get to go hang out with them. I feel special." Will: Well, it is a genuine pleasure. We're so glad that you came. LaQuette: Thank you so very much for having me.

Jeff & Will talk about their upcoming trip to the 2019 LA Times Festival of Books. They also discuss two series they’ve been watching: Comedy Central’s The Other Two and Freeform’s Pretty Little Liars: The Perfectionists. Books reviewed this week include Kim Fielding’s The Spy’s Love Song, Ari McKay’s Take Two and Erin McLellan’s Clean Break. Jeff interviews Erin McLellan about Clean Break, the second book in her Farm College series, and about why it’s important for her to tell stories based in her home state of Oklahoma. They also talk about her Love Life series, what got her started writing, her author influences and the TV she likes to binge watch. Complete shownotes for episode 182 are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. -------- Here’s the text of Jeff’s book reviews: The Spy’s Love Song by Kim FieldingRock star and secret agent on a mission to a foreign country to topple a dictator all wrapped up in a Dreamspun Desires package. That combination pushed all of my romantic suspense buttons and I had no choice but to pick up this book. And I loved it every bit as much as I thought I would. I was in tropey goodness heaven with the rock star thing, a bodyguard vibe plus lovers on the run and some occasional forced proximity. Jaxon Powers is a jaded rock star who’s at the end of a long tour. After waking up in a hotel room barely remembering what happened the night before, he might also be ready for a change in lifestyle. He gets a lot more than he bargained for when his manager brings him to a meeting with the State Department. It seems the dictator that runs the small country of Vasnytsia is a fan and wants Jaxon to perform a private concert as well as a large outdoor one for a worker’s festival. The U.S. wants Jaxon to do this because it’s a chance to improve US relations with the Russia-supported dictator. The only person going with Jaxon on the trip is secret agent Reid Stanfill. Besides keeping Jaxon safe, Reid’s got an agenda that has global ramifications. I fell in love with this book right from the beginning. Kim plays with expectations from the beginning. While Jaxon appears to be the spoiled rock star we quickly find that’s not what he wants to be. He’s a small town boy, doing what he loves to do but he wants more substance to the way he’s living. The trip to Vasnytsia does exactly that as his world view gets a complete makeover. Not only does Jaxon end up traveling without the entourage he’s used to, as Reid’s mission goes sideways the two end up on the run. Reid’s mission is to try to destabilize the country and force elections and that makes him an enemy of the state. Despite his fear, Jaxon won’t leave Reid to fend for himself. Jaxon knows his celebrity can protect both of them and he sticks by Reid even as Reid tries to force the star to safety. Through all of the crazy events that could result in either of them dying, Jaxon and Reid manage to start a romance. Reid tries to keep it from beginning since they’re in a country where homosexuality is illegal but they give in to their passions. That’s just the beginning as they share stories about their pasts, which only endears them more to each other. The mix between the romance and suspense is perfect, giving our guys time to fall in love even while things around them go crazy. I liked that Kim avoided the usual Dreamspun scenario of having alternating points of view. Everything in the story is Jaxon, which works perfectly so we don’t know Reid’s mission or anything else too early. It makes for a very snappy read going on the roller coaster that Jaxon experiences. Kim brings Vasnytsia to life through its people. It starts with the guides taking Jaxon around the country, giving him peek behind the propaganda. As he meets fans who must covertly speak to him as it wouldn’t be proper for anyone to talk with the American he begins to understand why Reid’s mission is so important. Ultimately it’s these people who shelter Reid and Jaxon and help complete his mission–with a particularly awesome assist from Jaxon. Drew Bacca does a great job on the audiobook, including having to sing a couple of Jaxon’s songs. This is the first book in the “Stars From Peril” series that Kim has in the Dreamspun line. The second book, Redesigning Landry Bishop, comes out in May and I’m already looking forward to it.  -------- Clean Break by Erin McLellanI almost didn’t pick this book up because I couldn’t imagine reading a book that included the characters taking care of Madagascar hissing cockroaches. I’m not a fan of bugs and the trigger warning page discusses more about the bugs than anything else. However, I’m glad I listened to the re-assurances I wouldn’t be creeped out because this is a terrific book–and the bugs really are a non-thing. This book, the second in Erin’s “Farm College” series, throws together Connor Blume and Travis Bedford–two guys who very much don’t like each other in the aftermath of an awkward, failed hookup. As their final college term begins, Connor and Travis are taking Entomology 101 and because the professor likes students to sit alphabetically, they’re next to each other and end up becoming class partners. Their dislike for each other radiates from them during that first class. Connor’s OCD and anxiety flare up just being near the guy, who he’s still wildly attracted to and wants to have a real discussion with. Travis has the attraction too but carries the anger from their previous hookup. It only gets worse as they get the assignment that they’ll be caring for Madagascar hissing cockroaches for the semester or that they’ll have to answer discussion questions together. It doesn’t take long for the sparks of dislike to turn into sparks of desire and they end up spending time after class in a storage closet making out. Neither of them is particularly happy that they’re giving in to their desires, which makes the scenes cuter and hotter. Travis wants the fussy farmer and Connor very much wants the stand-offish English major. Even as their make out sessions start to cool their hatred, they realize they’re constrained by time. At graduation, Connor is set to take over management of his parent’s farm, even though he doesn’t necessarily want that. Meanwhile, Travis can’t wait to get out of the small town for his legal aid internship and then on to law school. The guys have their futures mapped out and there’s no space for the other. That doesn’t stop them from getting emotionally entangled. Erin does a terrific job of bringing these two together. As they move their hookups to the bedroom, Travis discovers he likes Connor’s controlling side and gives himself over to it. Connor though never takes advantage, making sure that he’s always got Travis’s consent and that Travis enjoys himself. That continues as Travis reveals he’d like to be spanked. Both guys discover this is exactly what they need. Beyond the sex though, their efforts to not get too attached aren’t helped by their post-sex talks. Travis usually wants Connor to tell him a story and it’s here that he opens up bit by bit about his anxiety, his OCD and his pre-determined future. There’s so much going on for him, as a reader I wanted to wrap him in a hug and do whatever I could to ease the load he carried. Travis talks a lot too and over time we learn what makes him so driven–it turns out he lost one of his dreams due to an accident and he doesn’t want to let anything or anyone cost him this one. Just a she was great at bringing them together, Erin tears the guys apart just as expertly. It’s a tough go as Connor and Travis force themselves apart as graduation nears. Erin does a number on the characters as they emotionally hurt themselves and each other as they keep to their plans. Both guys want to talk to the other so badly and yet they’ve promised not too. For Connor, this is particularly bad for his OCD. Of course, this is a romance, so all must end happy. Thankfully how Erin gets the guys back together his as satisfying as everything she did earlier in the book. There is a way for them to be together–it just takes time for them to get there. -------- Interview Transcript - Erin McLellan Jeff: Welcome, Erin, to the podcast. Erin: Hi. Thanks for having me. Jeff: Very excited to have you here. You’re a new-to-me author and I just finished reading “Clean Break,” which I have to tell you, I adored so much. I’m reviewing it right before we get into the interview segment I’ll have reviewed it to kinda tell everybody about it. Erin: Yay, thank you. Jeff: It is the second book in your “Farm College” Series. So before we dive into “Clean Break,” tell us more about what the “Farm College” Series is about. Erin: Okay. So it’s just two books so far like you said and they are set in a fictional college in Western Oklahoma. And I would say kind of the overarching themes are… Since they’re college stories, they’re new adult that’s kind of coming of age and self-discovery, finding your authentic self, finding a home is kind of a big one. I think that’s kind of important at that age. You’ve moved out of your parent’s house or wherever you grew up for a lot of people and kinda figuring out what is home, what is family, that kind of thing. So those types of themes are kind of follow both books. They’re both kind of angsty to be honest though “Controlled Burn,” more so than “Clean Break” actually. Jeff: Oh, my goodness. Erin: So be prepared. But, yeah, and I think in terms of… The setting is really important to me at least as the author and those books is important to me. I’m from Oklahoma. I live in Alaska now, but I’m from Oklahoma. And it’s important to me to write stories that are set in Oklahoma that have, you know, LGBTQIA+ characters in Oklahoma. And I know as somebody that reads a lot of romance, I don’t see that very often. I don’t see romance set there or it might be… I have seen it where it’s, you know, characters that are like, escaping Oklahoma which certainly is the case for a lot of people, but it’s also the case that people live and love, and make their lives there. And I kinda wanna show that. Jeff: Does a farm college like this exist in Oklahoma? Is it based on a real place? Erin: No. Kind of I guess. A lot of the kind of small details mirror Oklahoma State which was my alma mater for undergrad, but Oklahoma State is so much bigger than the college that I created. So Farm College is kind of a smaller college in Western Oklahoma that I’ve created, but in terms of being, you know, having a strong agriculture program, but also kind of having this liberal arts situation that’s going on and a pretty vibrant LGBTQIA community, I’ve kind of made most of that up. So… Jeff: And I agree that we don’t see, I mean, besides books set in Oklahoma, really the more rural settings kinda, it’s always escaping from those places. And I like that you kind of built a place as if this is what you’d like to see even if it doesn’t quite exist there now. Erin: Right. And I think it’s kind of funny when I started writing “Controlled Burn.” It was pre-2016, right? And I kind of had this, you know, I kind of had this idea that it’s getting better, right? It’s looking up for lots of communities and I’m not sure if that’s necessarily the case anymore. I hope it will be and I hope it is eventually. But, you know, there’s good and bad, I think, about places like Oklahoma and Kansas, and Texas. And, you know, Oklahoma is really special to me. It’s really important to me. Kansas is the same, but there’s also problems and, you know, I wanna kinda write those stories. And I also, thinking about Oklahoma or Texas probably more so, a lot of the romances that I’ve read that are set there are like, ranch, you know, the cowboys, the farmers which there is kind of a farmer in “Clean Break.” But there’s a lot of people that live in Oklahoma and in Texas, in Kansas that aren’t cowboys. So I wanted to tell that story too. Jeff: Right. And you really hinted that a little bit with some of the dialogue between Travis and Connor in “Clean Break” too as they kind of talk about the difference between cowboy and more the farmer type that Connor and his family are. Erin: Right. Jeff: And so, as we kinda move this direction, tell us what “Clean break” is about and kind of who Travis and Connor are. Erin: Right. So “Clean Break” is about Travis and Connor. Travis is…he’s the best friend in “Controlled Burn.” So if you read “Controlled Burn,” you see quite a bit of him. He’s an English major. He’s from Houston, Texas, very ambitious. He’s got these kind of life plans and nothing’s gonna slow him down, right? He wants to go to law school. He’s got an internship after for the summer. He’s planning to move to Saint Louis eventually to work at this legal aid charity. He has this very, you know, set goals and he’s also kind of a unique, quirky, funny character to me. And then you have Connor who comes in and I don’t know if I would say at the beginning of the book, it’s more like pre-book before the book happens, they have a little bit of a failed hookup in a lot of ways. Some misunderstandings and so, they don’t like each other very much. And then in the first chapter, they get paired together as class partners in a class. And Connor is a farm boy. He’s kind of a townie, right? He’s from Elkville which is the city that’s it’s set in. He’s expected to take over the family farm and so, he’s got this, you know, he kind of his future plans are set, right? He doesn’t have a say over them and he’s… I have a big soft spot in my heart for him. He’s got anxiety, he has OCD. I really wanted to kind of write against the archetype of the like, lackadaisical cowboy or even like, the kind of the hard cowboy or, you know, that kind of archetype that I had in my head. I wanted to write a sensitive farm boy who’s in therapy and, you know, it doesn’t really match some of the people or the characters that I have seen written that way. And kind of the main issue between them, first is that they don’t like each other, but they’re attracted to each other, right? But the kind of the main two things that I wanted to do with the book is I wanted to write a complex authentic characters that are really well-rounded and hopefully, I accomplish that. And then the other thing that I really wanted to do was kind of write to people that are heading towards their future which is graduation and then, you know, the future beyond. And then their futures don’t mesh. There’s not really a way to come together at the end of graduation. They’re moving in different directions and I think that’s a really universal thing for people in college that are dating and dating seriously… do you compromise your future for somebody else? Do you change it? How do you make it work? So those are kind of the two things that I really wanted to hit on and of course, there’s, you know, there’s some kink that happens in the book and kind of self-discovery with that especially on Connors’ part. So there’s a lot going on, but those two things. The characterization and the conflict there with their futures not meshing are the two things I really wanted to hit. Jeff: And I think you did them both, I mean, really well. This book has so much going on in it and yet it never…the story also never gets way down either with the weight of everything that’s kind of moving around here. Erin: Thank you. Jeff: And really, you started them off as enemies who sort of move to friends to sort of get to lovers. Erin: Right. Jeff: Just that progression was so fun to watch unfold as they both pick at each other and then also help each other grow at the same time. It’s like, they lift each other up and kinda tear each other down at the same time. Erin: Right. And I hope that that is realistic. I think people… Because in a lot of ways they are kind of mean to each other at certain points and people can be mean to each other in real life. Especially, they’re not very old, you know, they’re 21, 22. So they kinda make stupid mistakes sometimes and say things that can be hurtful and then have to figure out how to make it better. Jeff: And I think with Connor too, you talked about writing against the archetypes and just having kinda the anxiety plus the OCD. And being, you know, a young gay man in that setting really just sets up so much for him in that situation. Erin: Right. Yeah. He has a lot going on. He’s bi actually and… Jeff: Right. I’m sorry. You’re right. Yes. Erin: And so, kind of a lot. I mean, it’s just a lot and I think it’s a lot for him to kind of deal with all at the same time. Jeff: What was your research on the mental health side of it to kind of figure out what traits to weave into his personality? Erin: So I did a lot of research and I had some readers too that read it for me. One of the main things that I really looked at was kind of the myths especially with OCD, kind of the myths surrounding OCD. I think a lot of people think it’s just, you know, a cleanliness thing or even an organizational thing where they, you know, people with OCD have an impulse to organize or clean. And that’s not really how it presents for a lot of people. A lot people have intrusive thoughts which he has or, you know, they have checking where he checks the expiration dates on food and he can’t kind of stop doing that even though he knows he shouldn’t be doing it, and it’s not healthy for him to do. And so, I did a lot of research about the myths and the different ways that it presents for people and kind of the hardships that it causes them. And I also really wanted to make sure that I kind of made it clear. It’s something that he’ll always deal with, right? It’s not going away and so, it’s really… I did a lot of research on how to manage it, how, you know, how to kind of continue life dealing with a mental health problem like that. Jeff: Yeah. I just… So often I wanted to just give him a hug when he was starting to lapse into it. It’s like, “Oh, I’m so sorry this is happening.” What you did through the black moments and I don’t wanna give spoilers for folks who, you know, need to read the book. But what you did to the black moments for both Connor and Travis as they dealt with their emotions and for Connor how those emotions kinda manifest themselves in his OCD was really just, I really liked seeing two young adults kinda come to grapple with all of that. Erin: Yeah. And I think it’s pretty normal when you’re more stressed, right? Or when there’s more and more stress for, you know, the OCD to kind of build on itself. The same with anxiety like, whenever I am really stressed about my anxiety, it’s gonna be worse about small things, you know, you can kind of blow them out of proportion. I know I do that and so, I was kind of trying to show that how it’s like as things got more stressful for him with graduation moving and with kind of this relationship with Travis, that’s not going away he wants it to go. It does kind of snowball for him and it kinda snowballs for Travis too just in different ways because he doesn’t, you know, he doesn’t have anxiety or OCD of course, but, you know, he struggles just kind of the same way. Jeff: Yeah. When you were talking about with this books about you left out one of its major points. Erin: The bugs? Jeff: That is the inclusion of the the hissing cockroaches. Where did that idea even come from? Erin: So I knew I wanted to put them in a class together and I wanted them to be class partners. But Travis is an English major and Connor is agriculture sciences, agribusiness major. And so, I knew it had to be like a gen ed class for at least one of them. And so, I really started thinking about the gen ed class that I had taken as an English major whenever I was an undergrad trying to figure out what class would make sense. And then I realized that I actually had taken an ag class that was Entomology 101. And I loved it, I, you know, I held like, tarantulas and I held millipedes. And I could see myself being that like, weird bug girl a little bit. I just loved it. And so, that’s kinda how I decided to put them in an entomology class. And it’s funny because, I mean, I do think that college is one of those times to take the weird class and do the weird thing. And so, I think it kind of made sense there and I also felt like, I gave a degree of what kind of humor and lightness I thought it would to the story. But I realize now that a lot of readers maybe don’t like bugs. So it’s something that’s like a little distracting to some people. When I had took the entomology class, we had an assignment where we had that exact assignment with the Madagascar hissing cockroaches where we had to take them home and observe them. And so, you know, for an entire semester, I had a Madagascar hissing cockroach in my dorm room with me. I never took it out of its box. I like, you know, I fed it, like, carrots through the little hole that it couldn’t get out and so, that would be fun to put that in the story. And I can tell you for the readers, the cockroaches do not escape ever. They never… There’s no, like, unexpected cockroach scenes. I promise. Jeff: Yeah. And I can vouch for that. There are no unexpected scenes and in fact, I had to check… I had to ask about that before I took the book to read and I’m like, “Bugs, I don’t know about that.” Erin: I know. I have put it in the trigger warnings for the book and on my website, it really does lay out kinda scene by scene where they’re at and kind of the degree that they’re on the page. And they’re not on the page that much. Jeff: No, they’re not and I never got squirmy reading it either because I really don’t like bugs. But I was totally fine with how this turned out. So… Erin: Yeah. I know. I don’t know why it hadn’t occurred to me that it would gross people out. At that point it was too late when it, like, finally hit me. I was like, “Well, I can’t do anything about it.” But I kind of thought that they were funny. Jeff: Well, I think it really fits with the whole ag culture of the college that of course, they’re gonna end up with bugs or whatever and have to learn about them. So it all meshed in together and like you said, there’s no point where they’re escaping or, you know, being gross. They’re just kind of there. Erin: Right. And students… Jeff: I like to, you know, those classes sometimes you take in high school where you’re having to take care of the doll for a week or whatever. And in this case you’re hanging out with a cockroach. So… Erin: Right. It’s kinda like a little pet for them for this semester. Jeff: So is there more plan for the Farm College Series? Erin: I have not kind of set plans. I do want to write a story for Alex. He’s in both books. He’s not in “Controlled Burn” for very much though his part is kind of important in “Controlled Burn.” He’s a friend of Connor’s really in “Clean Break” and I do wanna give him a story and I will. I’ll probably start writing that soon. Kind of be on that. I don’t know how much more I’ll write in the Farm College Series though I do wanna do a spin off that’s kind of several years in the future. So they’re not really in college anymore and I want to do an F/F romance for Desie and Lena. So I would start there for them. Jeff: Yay. Yeah. I would totally read that book because one of the things you did in “Clean Break” and I’m sure you established it back in “Controlled Burn” too, was just the tight community of friends that Travis and Connor both have, and even, like, the strong family presence of Connor’s family and how they support him. So it would be great to see more of all of that. Erin: Yeah. So… Yeah. And I definitely… I think I did a little bit more successfully in “Clean Break” for sure where they have very supportive families and they do have kind of a big wide friend group. And so, yeah, I’m glad that you like that, but I do want to do the F/F romance for Lena and Desie kind of. But Lena is quite young in this book. She’s 20 and so, I wanna give her a little bit of time to grow up, I guess. Jeff: Yeah. That’s cool. Now, you’ve got another series out there called “Love Life.” And tell us a little bit about what goes on in that series? Erin: Sure. So that’s also, they’re both male/male romances. Set in Oklahoma, Eastern Oklahoma for the first book, “Life on Pause.” They’re kind of small town romances there. The first one is about a guy that works at a homestead kind of prairie museum. They’re kind of common in Oklahoma where the people that work there have to dress in like, historical costumes of the time. So he works at that type of museum and then he is paired with a high school choir teacher. And it’s kind of them trying to fall in love and figure out how their relationship will work. It’s definitely kind of lighter in tone than the farm college series, but it’s still a little angsty. The second book in the series, “Life of Bliss,” is more novella link that’s a little short and it’s very tropey. It’s kind of two people that don’t like each other very much, but are fooling around kind of behind their friends’ backs. They agree to be fake boyfriends for a family wedding in Arkansas and Arkansas kind of, well, it has this… Historically in the area, it was the only state that didn’t have a waiting period for marriage licenses. Now, most of the states don’t, but back in the day, you know, they made you like, test for syphilis and all kind of stuffs. But extended the marriage license period. So Arkansas is kind of the place where people go for their shotgun weddings historically. So this is going back quite away, but in this book they go to a wedding in Arkansas, they get drunk at the wedding and basically, end up getting married themselves. It’s set in Eureka Springs, Arkansas for the wedding part and I don’t know if anybody would be familiar with that. But you can get married practically anywhere in Eureka Springs. It’s kind of an economy there. So it’s quite easy to get married and that’s what happens. So it’s kind of fake dating to accidental marriage. Jeff: Fake dating to accidental marriage. I like… Those are favorite tropes right there. Erin: Yeah. It’s a fun one, I think. Jeff: So what is your writing origin story? You’ve got these four books out. How did all this start? Erin: Well, I was a creative writing English major in undergrad, but then I ended up going to grad school for library and information studies. And I was a public librarian. And I had… I kind of had a lot of big changes in my life. I just graduated grad school. I just got married, I just moved away from home like, all of these big changes. I had a full time job for the first time and I had… I was living in Houston, Texas and I had this horrible commute. It was like, an hour and a half each way and… Jeff: Yeah. that’s pretty horrible. Erin: I think most people that have been in Houston know what I’m talking about. And I had all this time to kind of think and I basically on my commute started plotting a book. And some of it came from, I missed kind of the creative outlet writing research papers and stuff like that from school. And so, yeah, that’s kind of how I started writing as I plotted this book on my commute and then finally, I decided that I was gonna sit down and write it. And that book was “Controlled Burn.” Jeff: That’s an awesome story. Erin: Thank you. Jeff: What led you into putting this creativity towards M/M romance amongst all of the genres that were possible? Erin: Yeah. Some of it I think is that I was reading a lot of it at that time, I kind of got into M/M romance I guess if we’re going further back by reading Suzanne Brockmann, right? So she has the “Troubleshooters” series and that has Jules Cassidy who’s the gay FBI agent, right? He’s got that kind of the secondary romance through several books and then the primary thorugh a novella. And then whenever I was in grad school, I kind of didn’t have time to read for pleasure very much. So I wasn’t reading very much and then I took a class about reader’s advisory that we had to read like, the books from the best books of the year for “Publishers Weekly” and “Kirkus,” and stuff. And I just kind of… I can’t remember what year it was, but I grabbed kind of a random book off the romance list and it ended up being “Brothers of the Wild North Sea” by Harper Fox and I didn’t really realize that it was a male/male romance. So I just kinda grabbed it and started reading, and then it became quite clear, you know, very early on what it was. And it’s a beautiful book. Harper Fox is, you know, is a beautiful writer. Everything that she writes is really awesome and so, I kind of gobbled up everything that she had written and then it kind of hit me at that time. There has to be other writers that are doing this and, you know, they weren’t the books that were in the libraries. They weren’t in my libraries. So I kind of started searching them out and, you know, read a lot of K.A. Mitchell and Z.A. Maxfield, and some of those authors at that time that were the most prolific. And I was just very excited because I felt like there are all these authors that I had never heard of that I didn’t know about and they were all really, really good. And they were writing, you know, stories that kind of the themes were very important to me. And so, then when I write finally, eventually, decided to sit down and write a book. I think probably the main thing for me is that I wanted to write characters who are LGBTQIA in Oklahoma and it just happened to be that the first book that kind of came to mind, and that I plotted fully was an M/M romance in “Controlled Burn.” So that’s definitely how I got started. Jeff: That’s very cool and some great authors there to get you introduced to the genre as well. Who do you count as your author influences? Erin: Well, definitely, you know, my gateways were Suzanne Brockmann into romance in general and then Harper Fox. Kind of on a wider scale, I really like Alisha Rai. She kind of, she writes the heroines that are the type of parents that I just love. They are raunchy and rowdy, and wonderful. I would say also Annabeth Albert in terms of contemporary romance. Alexis Hall, I think kind of teaches or his books are like a master class on first person point of view if you look at “For Real” or “Glitterland.” And so, I really, really like his books too. Jeff: Now, your bio mentions that you like binge worthy TV shows. So of course, we have to know what are you binging these days or have binged recently that you would recommend? Erin: So my husband and I have been rewatching “Game of Thrones” of course, because the last season was about to come out. So when you binge that show, you just kind of realize how many awful things happened back to back to back because the first time we watched it, we didn’t binge it. We are watching it week to week, but when you’re binge watching that it’s like, “Oh, my God. That’s so awful, these things that keep happening.” Other than that, I really like… I like true crime, but I’m not watching any kind of true crime right now. And I like comedies. So I’ve watched “Schitt’s Creek” recently which I love, “The Good Place,” “Brooklyn Nine-Nine,” “One Day at a Time,” all these sitcoms that I think are really good, “Crazy Ex-Girlfriend” because I love musicals is really good. And then I also watch a lot of like, reality TV. So I like, like, “Tiny House Hunters,” and “Instant Hotel,” and “Project Runway,” shows kind of like that. Jeff: Very cool. Yeah. Some good stuff on there. Erin: You can tell me I watch a lot of TV. Jeff: “The Good Place” is a particular favorite. Erin: Yeah. It’s so smart. It’s so different than like, yeah, it’s very, very unique. So this is a great list for everybody who’s looking for something to binge the spring right here. So what’s coming up next for you in your release plans? Jeff: So I don’t have anything kind of set in stone. I’m not very good at planning. [I”m working on one about] tornado chasers or storm chasers. That’s a male/male romance that I have on submission right now to a publisher that I’m hoping will pick it up. If they don’t, then, you know, it’ll keep going out and hopefully somebody else will want it. I’m currently writing a book about a rec league softball team and I want this to be really, really tropey and kind of fun and light. The first one is using kind of the one bed trope. So I hope that that would be a lot of fun. I’ll write Alex’s story pretty soon and then I have a book that I wrote. But I’m hoping to put out at Christmas, it’s called “Stocking Stuffers.” And it’s a M/F romance with a bi heroine who sell sex toys. You know, like the Tupperware parties, but it’s like the, you know, the sex toy Tupperware parties kind of. And so, she works for a company kinda is the marketing person for a company like that and she’s hosting one of those parties, get snowed in, you know, with a big red bag of toys basically. Jeff: Yeah. That’s like an interesting forced proximity story. Erin: yeah. So it was a lot of fun to write. Jeff: And I’m very interested in the storm chasers one too because I’m kind of a weather geek at heart. So you kind of got me on that one. Erin: It was a lot of fun to write. Growing up in Oklahoma, you know, tornadoes are such a kind of a constant really. I mean, my parents have lost a house in tornado. I know lots of people that have lost houses in tornado. It’s so common. It’s just kind of a part of your life especially if you’re from Central Oklahoma like me and so, it’s… Yeah. It was a really fun one to write because you are just kind of entrenched in bad weather in Oklahoma in the spring all the time. So… Jeff: Very cool. And how can readers keep up with you online to keep track of all these projects? Erin: So I have a Facebook group called Erin McLellan’s Meet Cute. That’s a good one if you kind of… I do giveaways and book recs, and stuff. On Twitter my handle is @emclellanwrites and I’m on Twitter pretty often. On Instagram it’s @erinmclellanwrites and on Instagram, I would say it’s about 70% Alaska stuff like, every moves that I’ve ever seen and then 30% books. Unless there’s a book released and then it flips. But it’s a lot of Alaska if you follow me on Instagram. And then my newsletter which you can get too on my website or through any of the social media too. You would be able to kind of find the link to my newsletter and that’s probably the best way if you just want like, to know about new releases or sales, or things like that without having to kind of trudge through Twitter. Jeff: Well, fantastic. Well, I thank you so much for coming to talk to us about “Clean Break” and wish you all the success on that one and the upcoming releases as well. Erin: Thank you so much. It was so fun.

The show opens with Jeff talking about turning in the manuscript for new/revised edition of Hat Trick. The guys also talk about Captain Marvel. Will reviews Wanted-Bad Boyfriend by TA Moore and IRL: In Real Life by Lucy Lennox and Molly Maddox. Jeff reviews Diversion by Eden Winters. Jason T. Gaffney and Kevin Held join Jeff & Will to discuss their new movie project, the romantic comedy/paranormal themed Out of Body. They recorded the audiobook of the novelization, which was written by Suzanne Brockmann. We also find out about their history-based podcast, The Bright Side with Kevin and Jason. Complete shownotes for episode 180 are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Book Reviews Here’s the text of this week’s book reviews: Diversion by Eden Winters, narrated by Darcy Stark. Reviewed by Jeff Eden Winters Diversion series has been recommended to me for some time now and I finally took the leap. This first book was first published in 2012 but just came out in audio in October 2018 with narration from new to me voice artist Darcy Stark, who does a great job with both the suspense and romance. This enemies-to-lovers, workplace romantic suspense story centers on agents for the Southeastern Narcotics Bureau, Richmond “Lucky” Lucklighter and Bo Schollenberger. Lucky’s nearing the end of his forced stint on the job–forced as it was his way out of jail. Bo is new and eager, but is also at the job because of incidents in his past. They end up working together to bring down a ring of drug diversion and insurance fraud that involves a doctor, a drug manufacturer and a drug destruction company. I fell in love with gruff, no nonsense Lucky right away. He’s extremely good at his job, mostly because he used to be on the other side of the law. He exudes frustration and irritation at what he has to do and why and yet there’s a teddy bear in there too because he cares about getting the job done right. The friction that’s stirred up when Lucky’s saddled with mentoring Bo is sublime. Lucky’s looking to ride a desk during his last few weeks at the bureau, but his boss has other ideas. Bo’s very green in terms of what he has to do here–but he is ex-military so he’s no pushover either. He can take what Lucky dishes out and it pisses the senior agent off… and eventually Bo gives back as good as he gets. The friction gets explosive as Lucky battles with himself about the feelings he develops for Bo. The other thing the friction brings is a ton of humor. Lucky and Bo know how to push each other’s buttons–whether it’s blasting Billy Ray Cyrus, forcing healthy eating habits or being messy. It’s a wonderful odd couple pairing that morphs in a beautiful way as it becomes less about antagonizing and more about a sweet nudging of one another to just maybe move things to another level in their relationships. Both men have complicated backstories that make you feel for even more for them. Lucky ended up at the bureau after going to prison for the part he played in a large scale drug operation. He’d been in love with the guy behind that operation and when it all came crashing down Lucky was sure he wanted no part of loving anyone again. The pain Eden created for Lucky is devastating, which makes him all the more loveable when he’s able to come out of his shell. Bo did illegal things to help an ex and ended up taking illegal substances to the point that it’s very difficult for him to be around the drugs in a Pharmacy, which his job requires. There’s also abuse in his past and Lucky’s careful to keep Bo away from triggers as much as he can. The lengths he goes to keep Bo feeling safe are extremely sweet. Eden takes great care in how backstory is presented. Once the men get past their posturing and disdain for each other, they peel back they reveal themselves in a very natural way–as friends, coworkers and eventually lovers do. The good and bad are offered in equal measure and it’s perfect relationship development. The only thing I wanted in this story that I didn’t get was Bo’s point of view. I would’ve loved to know what was rattling around in his head. Not to take away from Lucky though as he was quite the good narrator and this one point doesn’t take away from my love of the book. The Diversion series is up to book seven as of January 2019–with the third book released in audio in February 2019–so I’ve got some catching up to do. I’m looking very forward to that. IRL: In Real Life by Lucy Lennox & Molly Maddox. Reviewed by Will In Real Life combines the classic alpha billionaire character trope with the time-honored scenario of two characters who are combative in real life, but are secretly corresponding with one another and falling in love. Which is the long-winded way of saying it’s a similar set up as the classic movies Shop Around the Corner, You’ve Got Mail, In the Good Old Summertime, and the musical She Loves Me. The way that the characters write to each other has changed and evolved, but the premise remains the same. There’s also hints of enemies to lovers and opposites attract. This book is ripe with tropey goodness. So what’s it all about you might ask? Nice guy geek Conor is in New York to sell his mother’s bio-med technology to a ruthless CEO. The evening before his big presentation he decides to live a little and begins sexting with who he thinks is the sexy hotel bartender. It’s not. The text exchange he ends up having with a stranger, who he calls Trace, is amazing, and through several flirtatious and super-hot online conversations, they begin a fling. At the meeting the next morning, Wells Grange recognizes Conor thanks to the Dalek tie he is wearing. Conor is the hot and horny guy he sexted with the night before. His first inclination is to use this information as leverage in their business negotiations. But Wells quickly begins to fall for Conor, both the sexy online version and the awkward real-life version. As they work through the contracts for the sale, Wells continues his deception. They spend several days together and get to know one another, Conor unaware that Wells and Trace are the same person. We follow our heroes, almost in real time, as they fall in love while working together, going out to dinner, and taking carriage rides in Central Park. Once the business deal is finalized, Wells and Conor finally give in to their attraction and sleep with each other. Needless to say, it’s amazing and life altering for both of them. But, as is the case in stories like these, Conor finally puts two and two together before Wells can come clean about his sexting alter ego. Conor is humiliated and justifiably furious. He packs his bags and returns to North Carolina, with zero intention of ever speaking to Wells again. And rightly so. I’m going to be super upfront with you guys, there are certain aspects of the billionaire trope that I personally find problematic. I was on board with Wells and Conor for most of the story, but there were moments when I had a hard time dealing with certain aspects of Wells’ alphahole personality. In my view, if the ending of this book was going to be believable, Wells was going to have to move mountains and pull off one of the biggest mea culpas in romance history. It may not have been the biggest, but Lucy Lennox and Molly Maddox crafted a finale that was truly heartfelt and genuinely appropriate for our two heroes. To make amends, Wells makes sure Conor’s sick mom is well taken care of and part of an experimental treatment program (her illness was the reason they needed the money from the business deal). Later, when Conor is unable to attend a Comic convention to unveil an important new development in his gaming business, Wells steps in, and personally gives a rousing presentation on Conor’s behalf. Wells proves he isn’t the billionaire alphahole he seems. Yea for true love and happily-ever-afters! Interview Transcript Jeff: Welcome back to the show, Jason and Kevin. Kevin: Thank you. Jason: Hello. Thank you. Kevin: Nice to be back. How you been? Jeff: Awesome. Jeff: Well, we had you on before, we were talking all about “Analysis Paralysis.” But you guys have a lot more going on besides that movie. You’re actually in pre-production right now on a film called “Out of Body.” Jason: Yeah. Jeff: Tell us what that one’s about. Jason: So “Out of Body” is basically a story where it’s a friends-to-lover rom-com. And basically, Malcolm, who’s Kevin’s character, has his body stolen from him and he kind of ends up as a spirit for a while. And he has to prove that he exists to me, Henry, and then when that finally happens, we do some magic, we fight some demons, we might get the body back, there’s definitely a happily ever after because it’s a rom-com. Kevin: You and your end happily-ever-afters. Jason: Yeah. Jeff: It’s important. Kevin: I know, I know. But I just want to the rom…just one time I want a rom-com to be…it’s mostly romantic and funny but everyone does die. Jason: Or they die hilariously. Kevin: It’s a rom-com drama. Jason: Death by rubber chicken. Jeff: And what was kind of the inspiration behind this movie this time? Jason: I don’t even know how this idea came in my head. But I was sleeping one day and I woke up and I was like, “Oh, that’d be really cool. A movie where someone’s dead but they wanted to be together but then they didn’t get to be together. And then they have to fight to get their body back and come back to life.” And so I wrote a kind of a similar but different kind of script. And we did a table read, and my mom was a part of the table read. And she was like, “I love the story you have here. Can I take it and can I change a lot of it and make it like super romance with the comedy?” And so this particular movie and book and audiobook is definitely heavier on the romance than the comedy, as opposed to “Analysis Paralysis.” But it’s, in my opinion, really, really good because the romance really makes…it’s gripping, it really gets you right in the heartstrings. And she basically saw what I was going for and was able to finesse it and really kind of mold it into what my kind of original vision was and then some. So I’m really psyched about it. It’s got a little bit of everything. Will: Yeah, not too long ago, I talked about the novelization of “Out of Body” here on the show. Jason, your mom, Suzanne Brockmann, of course, wrote that novelization, it was rather amusing. Like, I think in the forward she kind of does like a behind the scenes thing where she kind of tells that story where she says, “Jason, this is great. But do you mind if I take it and make it better?” Kevin: Yeah. Jason: Yeah. And here’s the thing, I am all about that. Like the filmmaking, it’s such a collaborative process and storytelling can be a really collaborative process. And I want to make good movies. And so I was really happy with the script that I had written, but when someone who’s as great of a writer as my mom is comes and says, “I want to have fun with this and let me just see what I can do with it,” I’m like, “Hell yeah. Take it. Have at it.” Yeah. Kevin: And the end result is really a script, a novel, and a script that really looks like if brilliant improviser and plot maker and gay comedy guy let his script be taken over by a bestselling romance novelist, what would happen, it would be this. You know. And so it’s really got great, great aspects of all of those elements. Will: Yeah, I really enjoyed the book and the audiobook as well. And I think it’s a really unique opportunity for people who are interested in “Out of Body,” the movie, to check out the audiobook and sort of, it’s essentially like a preview of what they’re going to be getting when the film comes out to the public. Can you give us a little bit of an idea about what it was like to kind of get into the material early before you even like were thinking about shooting by recording the audiobook? Kevin: I can tell you for my part, like, since I’m not one of the writers on this, which is, you know, traditional for me because I’m not usually the writer on a project that I’m acting in. But it’s completely unprecedented to have a novel that you get to perform about the thing before you even film the script. You know, so we get…like as an actor, it’s a freaking dream because I have…so you know how actors have to create subtext and everything, I just have to go to the book, you know, it’s like, “Don’t worry. I don’t have to make it.” It’s already been written down for me. So if I’m wondering, like, what’s happening for Malcolm now, what’s going on there? What’s the deep, deep part of it? It’s already written out for me now. So I would say, so the book is available. It’s on, it’s called “Out of Body.” It’s on Audible.com. And I would say, don’t deprive yourself of the opportunity to say the book was better. Jason: Yeah. And, you know, it was really cool to do the audiobook in general because it was our first audiobook for both of us as narrators. And when we were talking about doing it, we were talking with my mom about it and I was interested in the idea of recording it in a way where it was more like a radio show where we are our characters’ dialogue voices all the time, even if it’s in the other person’s point of view. Whoever’s point of view reads the descriptive stuff in the chapters. But if Malcolm’s speaking, even though I’m the narrator of that chapter, he still says his line, and he still says the lines of the other characters that he had been assigned and vice versa for me. And that was really kind of fun to do because, you know, how often do you get to do kind of a radio show acting gig? And it was also really fun for me as a director to get to do this with Kevin in advance, because, like, he now really knows the story and I know he knows the story. So I know that when he comes to set, that’s going to be really easy. And I got into the head of the other characters as well reading them, and that’ll help me be able to hold my other actors hands and kind of with them through their parts, and still allow them to bring what they want to bring to the role and have it blossom into how great it can be. Kevin: Yeah, and that’s like all separate and apart from the experience of actually recording the audiobook, which you might think was done him some and then me some on consecutive days or anything, but it was actually live together. So we actually recorded in a space that had two recording booths in it. We could both hear each other so that when I am narrating a section and it’s his line, I can hear him do it. And then I jump back in. So it was live editing, like, to take out any breaths or anything, or mess-ups or anything, so, but we got to…you know, it was amazing because I had him in my head the whole time doing it, too. So that was wonderful. It’s a great experience. Jeff: That’s amazing, especially how it connected to your even now pre-production process that you’re involved in because you’re getting ready to shoot in about a month from when we’re recording. In pre-production, give everybody kind of an idea of what that means. What’s going on as you get ready for your 12 days of shooting? Jason: So basically, what I just did was go through each of the scenes and break them up on a piece of paper so that now I have the page count number, like how many pages each scene is. Kevin: These are them. Jason: Oh, yeah. Little strip paper… Kevin: Each one of these is a scene. Jason: And basically, the page count, when it starts, who is in the scene, all that stuff. Because I need to…you know I don’t have every actor every day. I’m going to have Kevin every day because he’s one of the leads. But there’s other parts in it where they’re only going to film for one day…anywhere from one to three days. And so you have to plan their scenes on the same day. And this time, we’re going to actually be filming in two different locations because our neighbors next door sold their house to flippers and they’re doing construction and it’s been kind of never-ending. So we can’t film when there’s kind of heavy construction going on in this house. So we’re going to do a lot of stuff at my father in law’s house and then will come get the rest of it after they’re done here. And so I’ve been doing that with my dad and breaking it into those days while simultaneously working with my cinematographer Nacia to map out which shots are needed for each scene and what angles are we doing. So I put little maps on the other side of the table here. Basically, me drawing out the room layout and doing little circles with an M for Malcolm and an H or Henry, and the arrows pointing they go here and then they go here… Kevin: Oh my god. And this isn’t even talking about how to deal with SAG paperwork or any of the art direction that he’s doing, or any of the clearances that he’s getting for this or that kind of thing. Jason: We’ve got a, we’re going to have a… Kevin: He’s a bit of a doer. Jason: We got Andrew Christian giving us underwear… Kevin: Oh, yeah, we have Andrew Christian underwear over here. Jason: And I’m working with some other companies too. So Outfit is a gay like sports good wear, they’ve given me a patent to us for the movie. Kevin: He’s been stenciling t-shirts and… Jason: Hand design t-shirts specific to the characters. I’m going to be making him a specific shirt three times because he wears the same outfit the whole movie and so if anything spills on it, it’s got to be good and not spilled upon because he magically can’t get stains. And so it’s intense, there’s a lot going on. Like Pinterest is my best friend. I’ve been learning all about how to make DIY Halloween decorations. Because again, when you’re low budget, you can’t spend, you know, $3,000 on set design. You can spend like $200, and so you have to get a little crafty. You have to start thinking like, “Okay, I’ve got five pages of construction paper and a pair of scissors and some tape, how going to make this look like I spent a lot of money on it?” Kevin: He’s like MacGyver. So that’s his experience with pre-production, mine’s a little bit different because I’m not all the hyphenates. So I’m busy making no changes at all to my daily routine. Jeff: You do have a script to learn. Kevin: Sure, when I get it. Jason: It’s in the mail. Kevin: We’re at your house. Jeff: Oh my goodness. Jason: The creating part, like creating the artwork, it actually makes me feel calm. The paperwork stresses me out. And so Matt, thankfully, jumps on that grenade and deals with SAG-AFTRA and making sure that all the paperwork’s there and all the money is in the right place and all that stuff. So thank you, Matt. Jeff: Now, we should say Matt is your husband, so he’s in the production family. Jason: Yes. Kevin: Yeah. Will: So now that our listeners know how completely awesome and funny this project is going to be, can you give us a little bit of info about the Indiegogo campaign? Jason: We have an Indiegogo campaign, basically we crowd-funded “Out of Body” on Kickstarter first, a successful crowdfunding campaign last year. and Indiegogo came to us and said, “We’d like to do an in-demand campaign for you.” So we have an open-ended campaign on Indiegogo right now, where you can help sponsor the film help and get some fabulous rewards, such as DVDs of “Out of Body” when it finally is all finished, you can get DVDs of “Analysis Paralysis,” our last feature film. Kevin: I’m going to get these down from the thingy here. Jason: So you can show people. Kevin: You can actually, because now we’re in the second feature film that stars the two of us. Like we got other projects that I have to do with like if you’re your fans of “Analysis Paralysis,” or perhaps the audiobook of “Out of Body,” you can get these copies, you can get copies of all that stuff. And so as we are on the way to becoming things of all media. Jason: Yeah, exactly. And yeah, so if you go to indiegogo.com and you go, indiegogo.com/projects/out-of-body-a-feature-length-lgbtq-rom-com-movie/, it’s a very long title. Kevin: Really, why don’t you go to indiegogo.com and search “Out of Body.” Yes. Jeff: Or just come to our show notes, it’ll be much easier. Will: Yes, do that. Kevin: Exactly. Go to “Big Gay Podcast” website and it’s going to be in the show notes. Jason: Another place you can find out information about “Out of Body” in the future and any sort of campaigns we’re having, etc., is if you go to tinyletter.com/mypethippo and join our newsletter, you’ll be able to find out things about “Analysis Paralysis” or “Out of Body,” or our podcast, “The Bright Side with Kevin and Jason,” all sorts of fun stuff. And yeah, so and basically indie film, it’s low budget. So every dollar really does make a difference. Like if we get enough money to buy a better meal for the cast and crew, everybody’s spirits raised, it gets raised up a little higher, you know, or we can afford an extra day of filming, or we can afford…it really does matter. So thank you to everyone who has supported us so far. And thank you to everyone who comes and supports us after this. Kevin: Yes, indeed. Jeff: Now, Kevin had this wonderful term about you guys, you know, essentially taking over media. You mentioned the podcast, “The Bright Side with Kevin and Jason.” It’s a comedy podcast about history. How did this idea spark? Because this just adds to you, I imagine, having to research these historical things. Kevin: Now, Jason does all the research for this, you know, and that’s huge. Like, because basically, he doesn’t have enough to do. But the impetus for the podcast, which is “The Bright Side with Kevin and Jason” is, you know, there’s so much bad news all the time. And my mom taught me how to look on the bright side of stuff, you know. If I got one thing from my mom, it was to…I would always complain about this or that and she would constantly remind me of there’s something good here, you know, and you have to find that. And so that’s really the gem of this, it’s really the heart of that show is that, especially when you look around at the news right now, there’s so much bad stuff that is going on. But you have to also recognize that bad stuff creates the opposite reaction. And so who is making the good out of that? You know, who is looking at that and reacting to it in a way of love, or in a way of furthering acceptance, or you know, who’s looking at the transgender ban, for example, that was finally instituted by the Supreme Court? And who is saying, you know, I want to reach out and tell my trans brothers and sisters that you are people and you are valuable and your service is useful and we love you? You know, so who’s doing that? You know, and so that’s what the podcast really kind of focuses on. We do wallow in some tragedy on the podcast because every week we take a historical episode of some varying degree of tragic-ness and talk about it. But then we also, every episode, find out what good that led to. Jason: And it kind of came about a long time ago after “Analysis Paralysis,” like Kevin mentioned in the last episode, we talked a little bit about how we met on a student film and basically got along really well, really quickly, and then we started hanging out together with our husbands and going on double dates, and so it kind of formed this bond. And after “Analysis Paralysis,” which was so much fun, it was 10 days of basically seeing Kevin and laughing and having a good time, I was like, “I don’t want to wait a year-and-a-half for the next project. I want to do something now with you.” Kevin: The experience of just chatting about a topic on a set or something was so much fun and we thought, “We should bottle this.” And then we thought, “You can.” There’s a method for this that’s called a podcast, and that’s what started. Yeah, you know, so now I get to come over here every damn week. Jason: Yeah, come to the Valley. You’re welcome. Kevin: Yeah, when I moved to Westwood I was hoping that my second bedroom would be a good place to record. But it’s not, it’s not good. Too much noise there. The valley’s a lot of things, but it is quiet. Jason: It is quiet. Unless they’re doing construction next door. Kevin: Right. Jeff: You could just turn that second bedroom into a soundproof area. Kevin: No, actually, currently, we didn’t have any…we moved from a house that had a lot of storage into a house that had another bedroom, but no storage. So that second bedroom has just become basically the id of our house. You know, everything’s like ahhhhh, you know? Jason: It’s like in “Harry Potter,” what’s that closet? Kevin: The room of requirements? Jason: Yes. Kevin: It’s the room of please don’t go in there actually. Will: Now, guys, I’m curious. How do you choose which historical events to feature and how much research goes into each episode? Kevin: That’s 100% question for Jason because though I feel that the podcast is a 50/50 pursuit, because Jason does all of the research for the topics that we do, and I don’t ever know what we’re going to talk about until I get here, but then I do all the web mastering and editing and I put up the shownotes and I do all of that stuff. So I feel like we end up spending around the same amount of time on things. Jason: Yeah. So basically, generally about a day of work I kind of surf the web, I find a topic that…like I kind of search, you know, the rabbit hole as to like what kind of weird historical thing is this? And I’ll like Google really weird stuff so my search history… Kevin: Yeah, they’re coming for you. Jason: …completely messed at this point. But like, you know, I’ll look up like “wild strikes historical funny” to see what I get from it. But honestly, there’s been a ton of them I’ve gotten through recommendations of friends and family and listeners of the podcast, and we really encourage listeners to throw ideas at us because there’s some really obscure events in history that I don’t know about that I would love to know about and I could easily find it if I knew to search for it. And so if anyone out there listening has weird events, definitely tweet me or email me. Kevin: You can find him @jasontgaffney on Twitter, and tell him and I don’t want to know about it. Jeff: That’s right. Kevin has to stay in the dark. Kevin: Right. Jason: So what I look for also, I try to look for topics where there’s a lot of tragedy, but you can still make fun of it. Like, if it’s a natural disaster, I try to find one where people made bad decisions with the natural disaster, not that it’s just, like, everyone got screwed and they tried to do the right thing, but they still got screwed because you can’t really make fun of those people. That’s just sad. Kevin: And mean. And it’s really not. I mean, I know we’re talking about a lot of tragedy, and that’s kind of what we focus on. But it’s not a cruel show. It’s not a Schadenfreude, really, because the ultimate goal is to find out what the hopeful aspect of it, who turned that situation into something good, you know. Jason: And you’d be surprised, like, we generally can find it. I don’t think we found one yet where there’s really nothing, no bright side to it. Kevin: No. Because the arc of history is long and you never know what the end result of a pebble, you know, when a pebble goes into a puddle, you don’t know how farther in they’re going to go, you know, and so, like, we talked about that event but that could lead to something incredible later, you know. Jeff: For you, Kevin, since you come in cold to these, what’s been of the episode so far that you’re like, “What? What did I just hear?” Kevin: Oh, my God. Well, the “Empire” panic, for example, has been insane. Like, I have a feeling when I post the episodes, I have a feeling like I hope…My mom and I listened to the Christmas episode over Christmas. And at the end of it, she said, “That was funny and I learned some stuff.” So that’s what…it was like I was, “Oh, good. There we go.” That’s what I would like people to have from it. Is like, “Oh, I enjoyed that, you know, conversation. That was fun and stuff.” But also, “God, who knew?” Yeah, that’s amazing. Because he’s pretty good at this, every episode there’s gonna be some point where I’m like, “Are you kidding? Human beings did this,” you know? It’s always, “Yes, they did,” good Lord. Jason: It’s also it’s gotten way more fun to do the research than it initially was because I was really nervous the first couple episodes to like, “Oh, my God, is this going to be funny? How can I make this funny?” And I was trying a little like…we actually have a couple of episodes that just never aired because I was trying too hard as opposed to just seeing that, yeah, that was absurd. I don’t need to say anything except what they said. And now that I’ve kind of mastered that to a degree. I mean, I’ll keep getting better as time goes on. But now I can really see like as I’m reading stuff, I’ll be like, “Oh, I know that Kevin’s gonna hear that and go, ‘Stop it.'” And then he’s gonna call it out, call the absurdity of it. I don’t need to do anything except, say, like, you know, “And then she picked up the knife and stabbed her own foot.” And it’s like, “Why?” Kevin: Spoiler alert. Jeff: Did you have a knack for history before this, Jason? Or did this just kind of happen? Jason: So I’ve always loved history. I always love the idea of history. When I was actually a little kid, I used to play with blocks a lot. And it’s probably why I like being a producer and a storyteller. I used to have like this giant castle and a giant village and an army of bad guys and I acted out this soap opera for years with the royal family and all that. And I was fascinated with the Romanovs and stuff so I kind of like did a little spoof on them. And so I kind of created like my own worlds, and history and stuff. And so when I can find sites that tell historical stories like a story, which is what history should be told as because it essentially is our story, it’s really fun. It’s really exciting to read it and be like, “No, oh, my goodness, that person’s totally the villain.” And then you read a couple more paragraphs, and you’re like, “Oh, no, they’re misguided. They have a heart of gold. They didn’t know.” And then five pages later, you’re like, “No, they’re just a dick.” And it’s exciting, it’s riveting, it gets you on the of the edge of your seat constantly with how people just constantly mess up. And then occasionally, you have a hero who’s just like, actually a good person, you’re like, “What’s the catch?” So, yeah, you know, history is really fun, especially when it’s told with a fun storytelling lens because… Kevin: And I think that’s like the thrust of the podcast is also it’s about the topic, sure, but it’s also just about how Jason and I interact with each other. And we just have such a fun friendship. And I don’t mean that it’s fun from the inside. I hope it is, but it’s fun from the inside of it. So I have such a good time with him that whatever we’re talking about is going to be fun for me. Jeff: That’s awesome. So besides “Out of Body” and more podcast episodes, what else is coming up for you both? Kevin: I may never work again. Who knows? Jason: We’ve actually started writing the sequel to “Analysis Paralysis” with the hope of filming it at the end of the year, with the additional hope of trying to film it in Palm Springs. Kevin: First time hearing of that. Really? Jeff: Breaking news. Kevin: I love Palm Springs. Jason: We’re gonna do what we can to make it work. And it would require assistance from the Palm Springs community, sure, help house us and give us locations and stuff. Kevin: It’s gonna be all on the gondola. Only there. Jason: What gondola? Kevin: The gondola up to the mountain thing. Jason: Oh, yeah, that gondola. Kevin: The whole thing is set on the gondola. Jason: I was thinking like the gondola with a little stick… Kevin: Yeah, the canals in Palm Springs. Jason: But another thing that I’m actually working on is my dad and I wrote a couple of novellas that you can get on Amazon. Kevin: What are they called? Jeff: “California Comedy Series.” Jason: The “California Comedy Series.” Yes. And I wrote a version of “Fixing Frank” with the hopes to get that kind of ball rolling. And it’s definitely a film that requires a bigger budget than what we have right now. But I’m starting to get those wheels in motion for you know, movie four, five, six sometime in the near future. And so yeah, that’s kind of what I’m working on. Kevin: We keep cranking them out. If people will keep putting them on screens and things, we’ll keep making them. Jason: The goal is to make people laugh. I feel like that’s why I was put on Earth and I feel like that’s why you were put on Earth. Kevin: Well, yeah. I know am laughing whenever I see you so that’s probably true. Jeff: Do we get new “California Comedy” anytime soon? Jason: I have been talking about that with my dad, we actually have a couple that are in the works, it’s just trying to figure out when we have a good time to sit down and edit it. I think after “Out of Body,” I’ll be able to take a look back at one of them that we wrote a while ago and kind of tweak it because there were a couple of things that just never felt right. And so it’s just figuring out how to fix those kinds of plot holes. And then hopefully that’ll be on the market before the end of 2019. Jeff: Excellent. And Kevin, what about you, anything you want to throw out for people to keep an eye out for? Kevin: Super excited about the podcast, actually. You know, going into production on “Out of Body” is really, really exciting. I don’t have a lot of acting projects coming up after that, that I can think of right now. But that’s kind of the nature of acting projects. Jeff: Sure. Kevin: You know, and so the podcast is where you can find us weekly up until the end…and actually, we make announcements there about projects that do come up for us, you know, in the interim. So, you know, to be a loyal listener to the show would be the best way to find out about what’s new with us. You know. Jason: Oh, and I almost forgot. We’re going to try in some way whether it’s self-published or with some other company helping us, the goal is to turn the “California Comedy Series” into audiobooks as well, similar to “Out of Body.” Jeff: Oh, fantastic. So both of you voicing? Jason: Yeah, for two of them. One of them, the plan is to have my good friend David Singletary come in as the role of Mike since that role is African American. And my friend David Singletary is African American and I’m all about… Kevin: Kevin Held is very much not. Jason: I’m all about own voices reading parts and stuff like that. And he’s great. You’re going to love him. Kevin: He is great. I’m a little jealous, but I’m okay. Jeff: Well, guys, thank you so much for telling us about “Out of Body” and the podcast. We wish you much success with those. Jason: Well, thank you. Kevin: Well, much success with your own podcast, gentlemen. Jason: Thank you, yes.  

He's a libertarian, anarcho-capitalist. He hosts the biggest conference, Anarchapulco, for anarcho-capitalism. He's The Dollar Vigilante. Originally from Canada, hailing from Mexico. Jeff Berwick   Stefan: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the show, Respect The Grind, with Stefan Aarnio. This is the show where we interview people who achieve mastery and freedom through discipline. We interview entrepreneurs, athletes, authors, artists, real estate investors, anyone who has achieved mastery and examined what it took to get there. Today on the show, I have a very special guest out of the norm, Jeff Berwick. He's a libertarian, anarcho-capitalist. He hosts the biggest conference, Anarchapulco, for anarcho-capitalism. He's The Dollar Vigilante. Originally from Canada, hailing from Mexico. Jeff, good to have you on the show today. Respect The Grind, my friend. Jeff: It's a pleasure. Thank you. Stefan: Yeah. I really appreciate having a guest like you on the show, because we normally talk about like business and making money, and real estate. A lot of people listening to this show, they want financial freedom for themselves, and they're trying to make money. They're trying to invest, whatever that means. It's cool to have a guy like you on the show. We had a mutual friend of ours, John Sneisen, on the show a little while ago, and I love talking to guys like you, because we end up talking about the money system. We talk about freedom in the free world, free speech, all this kind of stuff. For the people at home who don't know you, Jeff, can you introduce yourself in your own words? Who are you, and why is this a relevant conversation for us to be speaking? Jeff: Sure. Yeah. Actually, it's a totally relevant conversation that's everything that I talk about. I've been doing that for about nine years now, since 2010, with The Dollar Vigilante, which is a anarcho-capitalist financial newsletter talking about how to free yourself. Not just financially, but in every way possible. Of course, for people that don't understand the word, "anarcho" means anarchy, of course, and that's a Greek word which means "an," without, "archy," ruler. I just believe that no one should have a ruler and no one should be a slave. I don't know why that's controversial at all, but that's the government indoctrination camps that people have had for about 12 years that most people have been forced into. Jeff: Then the capitalist part, a lot of people actually misunderstand that word, too. They think that what you have in the U.S. today is capitalism. There is a small part of capitalism still remaining, and that's why the U.S. is still standing, but it's mostly fascism, and crony capitalism, and what I call crapitalism. Really, when I say "capitalism," I just mean free market. I've been, and completely free market, so no government involvement whatsoever, no taxation, no regulation, no central banks, and no fiat currencies and things like that. I've been doing that for about nine years. Jeff: I also do a podcast called Anarchast. I've been doing that for about seven years, and it's grown quite a bit. It's nothing too huge, but it's actually spawned an entire conference now called Anarchapulco, as you mentioned. It's now the world's premier liberty and freedom event held in Acapulco, Mexico, every year. It's coming up in February 14th to 17th. We're expecting about 3,000 people, because the freedom, the idea of it is actually growing, believe it or not. I've been doing all that stuff for about, as I said, about eight or nine years now. Stefan: That's tremendous, Jeff. People like you, I really got to salute a guy like you, because it's not easy. It's not easy going against the grain. It's not easy speaking out about this stuff. It's not a popular table topic at the Thanksgiving table or the Christmas table. I remember when I was telling my family years ago about the money system at like at Christmas dinner or Thanksgiving dinner. Everybody got up and left. The average person doesn't want to hear about how they are enslaved. They don't want to hear about the money system. I remember years ago when I was 21, 22, I read a book called Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand, and that's the capitalist bible. The communists have Karl Marx, Das Kapital, and then the capitalists have Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged. It's number two most influential book in the United States. Stefan: Can you explain to the people at home, that's where I've first heard the word "libertarian." What's a libertarian? Because people, we're from Canada, or I'm from Canada, in Winnipeg, today, and people hear "libertarian," and they think libertarian is liberal, because it's L-I-B. They don't know the difference between the two words. What's a libertarian? Jeff: That's interesting you're up there in Winterpeg. I'm originally from what I call Deadmonton, so up in Canada. Stefan: Dude, that's the other Winnipeg. I'm giving that a gong. Bang. Just gonged it up. Deadmonton and Winterpeg. Jeff: Yeah, so the word "libertarian," I actually didn't even really know the word until about 15 years ago. It's become quite popular. It's become fairly popular since Ron Paul ran for president in 2008. Really, what the word means is, well, it's pretty simple word, "libertarianism." What it means is that if you're a libertarian, then you hold as one of your highest principles liberty or freedom. If you truly hold that as one of your highest principles, then you should actually be a anarchist, because an anarchist believes in complete freedom. It believes in the freedom of the individual that no one has the right to enslave and say they own another person. Of course, whenever you have a government, you're just born somewhere, and they go, "Well, you're ours now," especially in the U.S., where every baby born today in the U.S. has a quarter of a million U.S. dollars worth of debt and liabilities overhanging it from the government that it's supposed to pay off. Stefan: My God. Jeff: That's absolutely criminal and absolute tyranny and slavery. That's what we have in every country today, as well as Canada and every other country. A true libertarian truly believes that no one should be ruled or owned by anyone without their permission. Of course, there's a lot of people who don't mind being owned or being slaves. They're called statists, and if they want to do that, that's fine. I have no problem. As a libertarian or as an anarchist, do whatever you want. Just don't aggress against me. The only problem is, when they get these governments going, they always seem to include us and seem to think that, "Well, you are now owned by whichever government in whatever area you're in." I just completely disagree with that. Stefan: Yeah. I saw Jordan Peterson. You're probably familiar with Jordan Peterson, right? Jeff: Yeah. Stefan: I saw Jordan Peterson speak in the summer. He was speaking here in Winnipeg, Winterpeg, at the Burton Cummings Theatre, and he said something interesting that I thought something that I think people need to hear more often. He said, "The human race for most of history has lived under tyranny. We used to have monarchies. We used to have feudalism. For most, most of the human race, we've had tyranny, and for very brief times, we've had democracies or republics, but democracy lasts for about 250 years. Then it turns into a tyranny, usually, and then after that, turns back into a monarchy." Why do you think monarchies and tyrannies have existed throughout history, and why does it always seem to consolidate power like that? Why can't we just stay as a democracy or republic all the time? Jeff: Well, first of all, I'm not so sure about human history. I think most things we're told about history are lies, and so really, anything beyond a couple of hundred years ago, I really have doubts about what really happened. I really don't know what happened, but I don't trust anything that we're told by the media, or the governments, or the schools, which are all sort of the same sort of people running those sort of things, but what I understand happened is, a few hundred years ago, there was things like kings and queens, and they were doing that quite a bit. They were going around doing similar things that governments do today and say, "Hey, you were born here, so now you have to pay us a certain percentage of whatever you make," and that sort of a thing. Jeff: Really, a few hundred years ago, and it sort of seems to have happened in France, which is kind of interesting, because there's a bit of an uprising happening there again right now, is a lot of people said, "This is crazy. Just because you're born, this whole idea of kings and queens is so insane." I love the Monty Python, I think it was in the Holy Grail one, where the king's walking around, and he's like, "I'm your king." They're like, "You're who?" He's like, "I was born of this mother," and everyone's like, "What?" He's like, "I found a sword in the lake, and therefore I'm your king." They're like, "You're crazy," but for whatever reason, people kind of fell in line with that. Jeff: Of course, a lot of these monarchies were really tyrannical, and they would really, if you didn't pay them, they would kill you, that sort of a thing. That's very similar to governments. A few hundred years ago, people kind of woke up from it, and they said, "Well, this is stupid." The people who were in control at the time really realized they're going to lose a lot of power, and so they came up with an absolutely ingenious idea. That ingenious idea was democracy, which is a totally heinous, evil system of mob rule. If you have 51% of people decide that legally they can kill the other 49%, then everything's fine. Jeff: It's absolutely insane and just keeps people battling each other, but it's absolutely ingenious, because they've managed, through the government indoctrination camps, and through the media, the mainstream media, television, propaganda programming, to tell people that, "Oh, when you have a democracy, then you are the one who rules yourself, and you get to rule yourself by voting once every four or five years. You get to tick a box," and then some guy goes somewhere, and he makes decisions about what you're going to have to give up and how much they're going to extort you and things like that, but it's absolutely an ingenious idea. It's worked now for a few hundred years, and people have really fallen for it, but they're starting to wake up to it. That's what we're starting to see across the world, really. Jeff: We're starting to see that in France right now. Again, they're starting to realize, "This is absolutely insane that we have people ruling us without our permission, and taking our money, and things like that." Even Donald Trump, in the U.S., was to an extent an awakening of people going, "This system is horrible. We've got this total political class that is totally ruling us and just totally enslaving us." Jeff: What they thought was, "Well, we have democracy, thank God. We have democracy, so we can elect someone else," so they elected a kind of a bit of an outsider, Donald Trump, who's best friends with the Clintons and has been involved with central banks and with the Bush family for decades. His family's been very involved with the Bush family, so he's been very involved in the political class, but he came in as sort of an outsider, and you kind of see a lot of people saying, "Oh, he's an outsider, so he can fix things." He's not an outsider whatsoever. It's another sort of ruse in the whole democracy game, but really, that's what we've got today. Jeff: Now, what we've got at The Dollar Vigilante, I cover how bankrupt all these nation states are, how the central banks are printing money until we're going to be, hit hyperinflation very soon, so we're very near the end of this sort of system of these big nation states, of these big welfare states, warfare states, Big Brother nanny states, where everything is controlled, and regulated, and extorted, and taxed, and that sort of a thing. It's all going bankrupt right now, so even if people didn't wake up to what I'm talking about, we're still going to go through a massive amount of change in the next few years as all these systems all go down because they're all bankrupt. Stefan: Yeah. Well, there's a ... Man, Jeff, you said a mouthful there, man. I don't even know where to start, but I'm going to try to weigh in on what you said there at the end. Now, I wrote a book here called Hard Times Create Strong Men. I'm holding it up here for the camera for the people at home, and the cycles of history, as I understand it, goes like this. Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times. That whole cycle takes about 80 years, and every 80 years, there's a major war, a major crisis, a major reset. 80 years ago was World War II. 80 years before that was American Civil War, and you can trace this back in history. 80 to 100 years, every 80 to 100 years, is a major reset. Now, if you trace that out to the future right now from World War II to now, 2020 is the next "hard times create strong men." Stefan: That's what the book's about is, the men are becoming weak. When men become weak, the backbone of society falls apart. The family falls apart. The churches and the freedom of that falls apart, and what we end up with is some sort of major crisis. Would you say something like that's coming up? Jeff: Oh, absolutely, and I think those cycles are very true. If you just look at anyone who's like a rich kid, so his father most likely worked really hard his entire life and amassed a fairly large fortune, and then the kid comes along, and he's just pampered, and he never does anything. He never learns how to do anything. He never has to learn anything about life, and they usually become idiots, and they actually end up usually wasting or losing most of their money. This is a very natural sort of a cycle that can happen if you're not smart, if, as a father, if you make a lot of money, you don't just give it to your kids. That's absolutely ridiculous. Talk about a really great way to destroy your children, but the big problem with that cycle that you just mentioned that's been going on now for centuries is the government. Jeff: When you get the government involved, it's not just people who are destroying themselves through the cycle of people having to have hard times to get better and actually learn skills and work hard, and then they get soft afterwards, and then their kids get really soft and that sort of thing. That happens all normally, but when you add the government into it, it gets way worse, because then what, that's exactly what we're seeing today in a place like the U.S., which used to be quite capitalist. It has been fully capitalist, really, since its inception. It hasn't been, definitely has not been capitalist since 1913 when they first put in the Federal Reserve and the income tax acts in the same year, which is no coincidence whatsoever. It's been kind of a mix of the socialism, and communism, and fascism since then. Jeff: About what you've seen because of the capitalism, because of the free markets, there was quite a bit of free markets in the U.S. There isn't any more, but there used to be quite a bit. You build up all this wealth, and when you have a government, it always seems to skew to these people going, "Well, now that we have quite a wealthy place, we should be quite giving." Yeah, that's great. Give, but what they're talking about is, the government should steal money from everyone, extort everybody, and then give some of it to some people, which is absolutely heinous, and evil, and destroys everything. Jeff: Even the welfare system destroys the people on welfare, but as I was mentioning, like that whole cycle would happen probably quite normally unless people start to wake up and realize what they're doing, but the fact that we have governments today makes it so much worse, because that's what we're seeing in the U.S. You even see communism is really catching on in the U.S., because you've got all these pampered little kids. They sit there on their MacBook Pro at Starbucks ranting about how evil capitalism is and saying they want communism, and they don't even look up the last 100 years of what communism has brought a lot of places, like the Soviet Union, or Cuba, or Venezuela, and places like that. Jeff: They just, because they're so soft, and they've never really done anything, that's why they call them little snowflakes and things like that, and they become social justice warriors. Really, they're just non-player characters, NPCs, but yeah, the big problem with that whole cycle is government. If we can get government out of the way, then you'd have families destroying themselves over time over and over and not realizing the problems that they keep creating for themselves, but they wouldn't force it all on the rest of us through government. Stefan: Yeah. Wow. I mean, this is some really good stuff, and the snowflake thing, the snowflakism's a reason why I wrote Hard Times, because I had some of these snowflakes in my company. I have a company. I got 13 employees, and these little snowflakes were crying, "Oh, you're mean, and I don't love this. This isn't my dream job, and you make me feel like a piece of shit," and I had people showing up late. Just snowflakism all day, and I said, "Where does this come from? Where does the snowflakism come from?" I started writing this book Hard Times, and it's interesting, because what you said is absolutely true. Stefan: We've had some communist subversion come in from the Cold War into our schools, into our churches, into our militaries, everything, and we got this virus in our brain that thinks that communism is going to save inequality, but in history, communism has never worked. It has never worked once. It ends in massive, massive killing and massive death. There's something like 100 million people slaughtered in the last 100 years with communism. It's something brutal. It's the biggest cause of unnatural death, and every 80 years, we think it's going to work somehow. Somebody somewhere's trying communism. Stefan: As an extension, I've been studying communism, I was watching a show with Stefan Molyneux on Freedomain Radio, and he was talking about how feminism actually spawned out of communism when they started talking about equality, and men and women are equal, and next thing you know, in communist Russia, in 1917, when they switched over to communism, you had all sorts of major problems, where there was one crazy stat was, more babies were aborted than were born. You think about that, it's just a big, crazy, evil system. Why do we get this idea that we think that communism's going to save us from our own poverty? Like why does that idea keep coming in every 80 years into different societies around the world? Jeff: Yeah. That's a good question. I wish I knew the real answer, because it makes no sense. Obviously, these people don't look at actual history. As you pointed out, there's never been one ... It's not like there's been one that really worked out well, and they're like, "Oh, we screwed it up a few times." It's like every single one turns into disaster. It actually makes total sense why, because of human nature. For someone like yourself who's read books by Ayn Rand, you kind of understand the individualist sort of a thing, and that people will always do what's in their best interest. That just makes total and normal sense as human being. When you have this system that comes in and you say, "Okay, the guy at the top decides everything that we're all going to do," you don't keep anything from your work, so that makes it so a lot of people don't really want to work anymore, because why would you work if all the incentives go away to ... Jeff: I don't know about you, but when I do work, it's because I know I'm going to get something from it. I'm not just doing it because for no reason whatsoever. A lot of these people, especially ... Well, what's really happened in the West is that they've really pumped it up in the government indoctrination camps. That's why I say to people, "Get your kids out of the government schools. There's nothing that can be worse than that than having government actually teaching you ... " Not teaching, actually indoctrinating your child for like 12 of its most important years of its building of its sense of self, of its intelligence, of everything. Even Vladimir Lenin, of all people, said, "Give me your child for four years and the seed I plant will never be uprooted." Jeff: It starts a lot there, and then you go home in places like the U.S., or Canada, or a lot of places, and you turn on the television programming, and it's called programming for a reason. You get pro-cops, and pro-presidents, and, "The government saved us today," and turn on the news, which is total fake news. It's just government propaganda, and they're like, "Well, we saved this today," and all that sort of stuff. With the cycles that you're talking about, and we're in the snowflake cycle now of sort of this millennials that have never seen anything hard their whole life. To them, the hard thing they've seen is like when there's a long line at Starbucks or something like that. Stefan: No Wi-Fi on the plane. There's no Wi-Fi on the plane today. Darn. Jeff: Yeah, like that's the hardest times they've seen. Because they've gone through this indoctrination and that they're really, I actually stay away from colleges and universities, because it freaks me out to hang around, like they're all zombies, and they're the stupidest people I've ever met in my life. They're all indoctrinated and programmed. You go there, and half the classes are talking about communism and socialism, so they've got them in this sort of thing, and they're all going out there now. We've seen that ... What's that, there's that U.S. politician, some young girl, is just complete and total moron who's just got selected or elected into Congress. It's called Congress because it's a con game, and it's called the Constitution because that's also a con, and all that sort of stuff. Jeff: You've got those people out there pushing this stuff, and these kids just go out, and they think, they don't know anything better. It's very unfortunate, but that's why it's really important that we continue to push out what we push out, which is more free market stuff. A lot of people do catch on to it. It's not as bad as it seems. The worst place that it really is in the world today is the U.S. They've got everyone ... Not everyone, but most people, they're so indoctrinated, and so brainwashed, and so propagandized, but you go to a lot of other places like Mexico here, and a lot of people are pretty free market. They don't like government and things like that. That's why they make Mexico look so bad on the news. That's on purpose, because it's a lot more free market down here. Stefan: It's amazing. I mean, you moved to Mexico. I have this prediction that Russia right now is a freedom-growing country. They're getting more freedom over there. It's like the 1950s U.S. over there, and then over here, it's like we're a freedom-losing country in Canada and the U.S. It's interesting with, you're talking about the universities being scary. When I get a stack of résumés, and I'm hiring, I throw the ones with degrees in the trash. Yeah, they don't- Jeff: Yeah, me too. Stefan: The people can't think for themselves. I remember I went out with this 18-year-old girl, and she wanted a job, so we went out for lunch, and I said, "Okay, look. What do you want to do?" She goes, "I want to start a social media company." I'm like, "Great. Start it." We're eating lunch. I said, "Great. Start it." She says, "Well, I'm in the business school, and I'm going to get my MBA, and I don't think I can start, because I don't know how," and I said, "Well, go google that. Just start." "Oh, I don't think I know how. I'm not qualified." The school system literally disabled her mind from figuring out how she could just start a social media company. Stefan: I mean, I got some guys running my social media. They're 18, 19 years old, and I just met them at a restaurant. Boom, they're banging out my social media like crazy, doing a great job, but this same girl in the government indoctrination camp, as you say, the universities and the schools, can't think for herself. I also think it's interesting in the colleges and universities right now, the number one read book on economics is Karl Marx. That's just like, that just doesn't make sense. Why don't you tell me a bit, Jeff, why does Karl Marx as the number one economics book not make sense? Jeff: Oh, my God. First of all, he knows nothing about economics. He was a homeless guy who had no money, and he wrote a ... If I was around when he wrote the book, I would have given it a few minutes, or even maybe a few days, maybe even a month or two, of thought, because it sounds really good. Right? Like what is the communist sort of slogan? It is, "Give to-" Stefan: Seize the means of production? Jeff: No, but they have this slogan like, "Someone's needs ... " Stefan: Oh, "To every man's need," or, "To the best of his ability and every man's need," or something like that. Jeff: Something, but basically what it's saying is ... See, that's how stupid it is. I don't even memorize the stupid quote, but basically, it sounds nice. It sounds like, "Yeah, if people can't do things, then you help them." It's like, "Yeah, sounds great," but the way they're talking about is, you have this giant government. They come around. They steal things from people, and they decide who gets your money, essentially, and things like that. Yeah, and it's shocking that ... It's really mostly caught on in the U.S. Like obviously, if you go to the ... You brought up Russia. If you go to Russia, no one wants to read Karl Marx. They'd probably burn that book if they saw it, just because they'd be so angry at it. Jeff: Anyone who's actually lived through communism, a lot of the old Soviet Union, the Eastern Bloc, Poland, and a lot of those places, even Germany to an extent, they still remember a lot of that. That's all you need to know about communism is live through it, and you realize it. That's one thing that I always thought that's funny is, you have all these people like Bernie Sanders and all these people, and they're so pro-communism and socialism and all these sort of things. It's like, have you ever even just gone to Venezuela even for a weekend? Because I was there like a year and a half ago, and it was pretty bad. Jeff: I remember being there about 15 years ago, and it was really nice. In fact, you can look up Venezuela back in the '60s and '70s. It looked just as nice as what you see in the videos of the U.S. People got around in nice cars, looking all nice. Everyone's looking good and happy, and they have lots of food and all that sort of stuff, and now it's just a complete and total disaster, so ... Yeah, you have some people still ... It's mostly in the U.S., though, I have to say [inaudible 00:23:04]. Jeff: I meet a lot of people from the U.S., and they say, "Man, this whole world's going to hell." It's like, actually, it's not too bad. Most of the world is pretty good. It's really the U.S. is like, and Canada is almost just as bad now, and when you go to the universities, as you pointed out, and I do the same thing, I have only hired one university graduate ever, and it turned into the biggest disaster I've ever had. He was actually a producer at CNBC, I hired him in 1999 to head up a video department of a internet company I had, and he was a total disaster. He was an MBA, and I had all the, all that stuff, and I ended up having to pay him out like two years' salary to get him to leave, that sort of- Stefan: Oh, my God. Jeff: But yeah, so I just stay away from the universities. As you pointed out, if I ... I've got a number of businesses myself, so if someone's interested in working with us, I'll ask them what they do, and if they go, "Well, I just spent the last eight years in university," I'm like, "Well, you don't make very good decisions, do you? You [inaudible 00:24:00]-" Stefan: Bro, I'm going to give you a gong for that. Boom. I want you to instant replay that for the kids at home. "If you're hanging out in university the last eight years, you don't make very good decisions, do you?" Tell me why that's a bad decision in 2019. Jeff: Well, I'm sure there's probably a couple courses you could take in college that make some sense somehow. I've never seen them, though, but I ... There must be a couple, but the reason that it makes no sense in 2018, 2019, is because we have the internet now, and all information is on the internet. You don't have to pay $100,000 a year to go sit in a room with probably a unionized teacher who's never done anything his whole life, that's why he's a teacher, he doesn't know anything, and sit there with a bunch of other idiots like you, because you don't know anything, they don't know anything, and learn about socialism-type stuff pumped into you. It's a complete and total waste of time. Really, the best- Stefan: You mean it's a virgin sex therapy class, so the guy teaching, it's a virgin, but he's teaching sex therapy to everybody? Jeff: Yeah, that's one good way to put it, but yeah. It's just a waste of time. I think trade schools or something, where if you're going to become a mechanic, so you have to work on cars, so you can't really do that over the internet, I think that makes some sense, but 90-percent-plus of what you go to college for is just a complete and total waste of time that you could just totally learn much better stuff on the internet. It actually just came out, I don't know if you heard this, but Google and Facebook just said that they've removed university education as one of the requirements to work there. I think they're really slow and late to do that, but I think they're starting to realize, it's like, "Man, the people we're getting from the schools are just brainwashed idiots, whereas the young guy who's sitting at home just hacking away, and going on the internet all day, and figuring everything out, those are the kind of guys you want." Stefan: Yeah. I got a policy in my office, and when people come to me and ask for stuff, I say, "Google it, or handle it." Those are the two things, handle it, google it. Google and ... I think it was Google, Apple, Facebook, they don't need degrees anymore. I think that's been going on for some time, but it's an official statement now. Right? That's like super, super official. Jeff, let's go back to collapse of society and things like that. One thing that's common in history, and I've studied it over and over again when these collapses happen, it's usually, the people can't buy bread. The nonsense can keep going on. The ... Stefan: I've got the numbers in my book here, Hard Times, about minimum wage, and minimum wage in 1968, indexed to gold, is 103,000 dollars U.S., so you work at McDonald's, you made one cheeseburger, one hamburger, French fries, Coke, and a milkshake, you made 103 grand in purchasing power back then, indexed to gold. Same guy today making a cheeseburger, hamburger, French fries, well, he has to make 150 items down at McDonald's. They got a crazy menu. Stefan: Same guy at McDonald's makes 13,000 a year, so he's lost 90% of his purchasing power indexed to gold, and this shenanigan with the money system where the banks and the government rob people through inflation every year, and then suddenly, at some point, it keeps going, going, going, going until the average man can't buy bread. That's when the Russian Revolution happens. That's when the French Revolution happens. Why does that pattern keep happening over and over again? Jeff: Well, first, let me just mention that the reason that these jobs have gone so far down in value is because of the central bank. It's because of money printing and inflation, and that's why you pointed out those numbers in inflation terms. You have a lot of people out there today who are like, "We need to raise the minimum wage," which is, what you're saying is, "We need these people who extort us, called the government, to go out with guns and force businesses to pay us more because we can't afford to live." Well, the reason you can't afford to live is because you've had most of your stuff stolen from you by the central bank, and the central bank, by the way, is a tenet of communism, and that's why I say the U.S. is nothing even close to capitalism today. Jeff: Actual communism has already destroyed most of these people. You ask about revolutions, and yeah, it seems that people, this is one thing you can say about anarchy, a lot of people think about anarchy, "Well, if there was not government, it'd just be chaos, and horrible, and everyone would just kill each other." It's actually not true. Your average person, and this relates to your question, your average person just really doesn't want to do too much. They want to have a nice little life. They want to have a family or whatever, or they don't, but they want something nice, and that's about it. They don't want to go out and rock the boat too much. Your average person just does not want to rock the boat, and that's what ... Jeff: That's one of the problems we have today is, we have the statist system, and most people are just too scared to change it, but it appears, at some point, when you finally run out of even just food, and you can't even eat anymore, that's when finally people start to wake up, and stand up, and demand some sort of change. When I say demand, the problem is, they're demanding from the government change. What they should really realize is, the government caused it, the central bank caused it, and just break away from this system and stand up and become their own person and not be a slave to the systems, but yeah, it's unfortunate that your average person, for whatever reason, will wait until they're basically starving before they actually face the real problems in the world. Stefan: It's interesting in history, I think Putin kicked out the central banks. Is that right? Jeff: I'm not sure if Putin did, but the ruble basically collapsed. I don't think they had a central bank, definitely, at the start there. Stefan: Well, I've heard Putin's kicked out the central banks. I think it's interesting is, Hitler did that back in the day. I guess Germany was so poor, and they were so messed up, and they couldn't make their war reparation payments. They just couldn't pay, and that's how World War II started is, a bunch of people, super poor, couldn't pay their payments, boom, world war starts. It's interesting, because somehow, in the system, the political system, they go right versus left, and the right versus the left, and the left versus the right. Really, it's the same kind of thing. Nobody points the finger at the central banks. Stefan: One thing I love about America that still stands is, there's 300 million guns in the States and 300 million people, and they keep that gun amendment in there because they know that tyranny's going to come at some point. They left that in there, and if people can't buy bread, or they're really hungry, that's where those 300 million people with guns are going to rise up. Do you think we're going to see something like that in our lifetimes? Jeff: Yeah, definitely, because the U.S. is going to collapse in the next few years. It's not going to be decades, because it's so bankrupt. We have 22 trillion dollars' worth of debt now, so we're basically ... I said when I started The Dollar Vigilante that the U.S. dollar will collapse by the end of this decade, so we've got about a year left. I think we're pretty close to on track. That's how close we are to the end of this system. Yeah, we're definitely going to see collapses anyway. As far as people in the U.S. having guns, I think all people should have the right to defend themselves, obviously. I don't think anyone should be able to say, "You can't have this," if you're not hurting anyone else, and that's what government does, of course. It's very good. That's the only thing left in the U.S. that is keeping it from being complete and total carnage is that the people still can protect themselves, so the government has to be very careful about how they enslave everyone, but they've done an incredibly good job of enslaving people. Jeff: When you think about how the U.S. started, it started over the Tea Party, where it was a tax from England on tea, and that was it. It wasn't a tax on everything else, income tax, and capital gains tax, and smoking tax, and hotel tax, and food tax, and all this sort of stuff. It was just a little tax on tea, and that started the so-called American Revolution. Now you have people in the U.S. today where you have taxes that are over 50%. It's probably closer to 60 or 70% when you add up all the taxes, because literally every single thing in the U.S. is taxed today, including death. Death has a tax, and so when you die you get taxed. You still don't have people wanting to revolt. It's because, again, people are fairly, if they have a decent life, they don't tend to want to change things too much. You look at the U.S. and your average person, even poor people have a television. They probably even have a car. Even poor people have cars in the U.S. Jeff: That's how much free markets, even the poorest people are still ahead of a lot of other people in the world, and so because of that, they don't really want to have a revolt or anything like that. Plus, they don't even ... Because of all the years of government indoctrination and all the war propaganda about how they're trying to save the world by spreading freedom by bombing the entire world in the War on Terror, war of terror. It's absolutely insane, but your average person just doesn't seem to want to even break out of this system. Jeff: What's going to probably happen is, that system's going to collapse on its own because of all the debt and go into hyperinflation. Then hopefully, and you brought up about how Russia's become much more free market now. That's what happens. The same cycles that you mentioned before when you have countries, they usually start off quite small and poor. Even the U.S. was like that when it first started. Because it had a lot of freedom, it becomes quite rich. Then they get soft because of that and because of government and statism, they start doing socialism and all these sort of things which start to destroy everything. They start putting kids into the government schools and all that, and they get worse and worse until they eventually totally collapse, like the Soviet Union. Once it has a total collapse, then you can actually have free markets again. The U.S. actually, once this collapse happens, and after a few weeks or months, and that's sort of what happened in the Soviet Union as well, it takes a little bit of time, like weeks or months, definitely not years, then you can start to rebuild immediately again with free markets. Jeff: We've seen how the free markets, if you just allow people to be free, you just have to look at places like Hong Kong. That was a fishing village like 200 years ago. Look at it now. I don't know if you've ever been there. It's amazing to even go there. Singapore, even 100 years ago, was a fishing village. It's now one of the most luxurious, wealthy places in the world. Dubai was just desert. They just started doing like low-tax, no-tax sort of stuff, and all of a sudden, there you got like indoor ski parks in the hot, 150-degree desert. Once you have like all this tyranny, it will eventually collapse. Then once it collapses, you have freedom again, and then things take off again. Jeff: Really, that's the whole point of what I do at The Dollar Vigilante is, that's our actual tagline, which is, "Helping you to survive and prosper during and after the dollar collapse," because if you can hold on to some of your assets, and if you can get through this collapse that's coming, we're going to go on to amazing, prosperous times again, but if you have no assets, you'll have to work a lot harder to get back up, but if you have kept some of your assets and things like precious metals or cryptocurrencies, once everyone else gets wiped out, and all the banks close, and the currency becomes worthless, you'll be one of the richest guys around, and then you can start rebuilding the new free market. Stefan: Yeah. There's two cycles that are coming to an end. I wrote about this in my book, Hard Times. One is the 2020, which is that 80-year cycle of war. That's an important one to watch. Hard Times Create Strong Men. Then the other one is the 250-year cycle of democracy. Democracies only last about 250 years, so if the U.S. was born in 1776, it's going to be dead by 2026, so somewhere between 2020 and 2026, we know there's probably going to be an end of democracy, probably usually goes democracy into tyranny, and then tyranny back into monarchy usually is what happens. We'll see something happen. Do you think it's going to go back to tyranny and monarchy, or do you think it's going to go just to open freedom? Jeff: Yeah. A really good question. I don't know how it's going to play out. I could definitely see the tyranny part coming after this. What will likely happen, and probably be Trump will be in, his regime will be in as this collapse happens. As everyone's gets wiped out, as the banks close, as it's complete, way worse than 1929, Great Depression, someone like Trump will become sort of like Hitler-like in that sense, in that he will be the strongman who will lead the country out of this. Because of that, we're going to need more laws, and of course, Trump has been pro-asset, civil forfeitures, having the police just take whatever they want. He even came out recently and said that he's okay if the cops go and just take everyone's guns and then figure out if they did the right thing afterwards and go to court in that afterwards, so no due process and things like that. Yeah, I could totally see that we have this collapse in the next couple years. Jeff: It leads into a very sort of like Nazi Germany like sort of like tyranny type thing, and perhaps war, because the U.S. does have a massive amount of military just sitting there, and of course, if you're desperate, and if you're broke, and if your people are all crying out for something to be done, and of course, what do they always say on the news, the television programming? "Well, it's always Russia. Russia's always messing with us." Russia's not doing anything to the U.S. whatsoever, but they've been putting this into place, and they also mention China a lot. Yeah, they'll probably go into some sort of major war at some point. The key for people like us will be to stay outside of it and let them all go through this, again, if they want to go through this again, which is unbelievable. Jeff: There's lots of stories of people surviving through all of these, World War II, World War I, the Great Depression, and coming out way ahead afterwards, and even surviving quite well through it. A lot of them would go to places like Argentina or whatever for a few years, wait till all the craziness dies down with their assets and things like that. That's really the key, and to me, it's, we can't change everyone else. I wish we could, but we can't. Jeff: Actually, I don't wish I could. That'd be a huge responsibility, to change everyone else, but I wish that they would be a bit more able to see what's going on, but if they can't, really all that's left for us to do is to take care of ourselves and to keep spreading this information the ways that we can do it, but if they're going to go ahead and destroy the whole world with their statism, and their craziness, and their communism, and socialism, and fascism again, then it's really just up to us to survive and prosper through it and then try to be there to help rebuild once they get through doing it all again. Stefan: There's two interesting things that come to mind when you say that. There's the Hitler-Trump connection, which I think is super interesting. There's two things I want to allude to. There's the Hitler-Trump connection, and then there's another one, an Abraham Lincoln and Trump connection. When you look back in history, so if we go back 80 years to World War II, Germany was one of the most advanced civilizations on the planet, probably actually was the most advanced in science and medicine. They were so broke, they were so poor, they were so hungry, they were so messed up that the Nazis became popular, because Hitler was offering them a better life. He said, "Look, here's a better life. We can have a better way." People got behind that, the most sophisticated, probably, society on the planet went into absolute terror at that time. Stefan: I think there's a similar thing going on in the U.S. You've got a huge amount of people on food stamps. People are poor. People are pissed off, so they elect a strong leader. It's not ... It's interesting, like if it wasn't Hitler back in World War II, it probably would have been somebody else leading them, because the people were so poor and so messed up ... I like what Jordan Peterson said in the summary. He said, "You don't have an idea. An idea has you." That idea had Nazi Germany. I think there's a similar idea in the Brexit right now. There's a similar idea in the United States, and then that's the 80-year cycle. Stefan: If you go back 80 years before, you got the Civil War, the American Civil War, and Abraham Lincoln got shot. It's interesting, because Lincoln was a guy that wasn't totally popular with half the country. He got assassinated, and those things are all kind of floating around. You got a Trump, Trump-Hitler-like ruler there. I mean, I actually like Trump, personally, but at the end of the day, there's a sentiment in the country and a feeling around that that's Hitler-like, and then there's also an Abraham Lincoln kind of feeling where do you think he could get assassinated? Jeff: Look, I think it's possible. I think most of those sort of things, they're all actually orchestrated. JFK, for example, I believe that was Lyndon B. Johnson and the CIA who took him out. Ronald Reagan, that was the first Bush, the one who just died, George W. Bush, or sorry, George Bush, who was behind the assassination attempt, so-called assassination attempt, on Ronald Reagan. It's usually like an inside sort of a thing. It's really controlled. It's really theater. They actually keep all these things, including Putin, including little Kim in North Korea. They're all controlled by the same people, and it's just this big theater to keep people just mesmerized and watching their CNN and, "Oh, what did Trump say today," and all that. It's just no different than people in North Korea like, "What did little Kim say today? What are we supposed to do today?" Jeff: That sort of a thing, but anything is possible, but it is pretty tough to assassinate the president, as an outsider, but as an insider, it's not that hard, but they also seem to have some sort of weird like almost like protection around them. Like even George W. Bush, when he was in Iraq and the guy stood up at the media thing, and he was very mad, because Bush had been destroying his country and killing his family and all that sort of stuff, and he threw one shoe, and Bush just did the little dodge and just missed him, and then threw another shoe, and he just ... It's like, I don't know what it is with these people. They're kind of like, I don't know what it is, but it seems like he can't really get to them that way, not physically violent sort of thing. I think the only way we get rid of all of this is for people to wake up and realize that these people don't own you, and start to move away from these systems, and these people just go away and have to get real jobs. Stefan: I think one of the problems with human nature and people, I mean, you were talking about human nature and communism, where human nature doesn't work inside of communism, and then there's also another side of human nature, which is, I think humans have a hero worship, innate hero worship ability where we see someone, we see a leader, and we just want to worship them, and we want them to handle our problems. We want to have a personal Jesus. We want to have somebody we can just give it all to. Somehow, that's going to be the easy button. It'll all be solved, and then we don't have to think or deal with anything. Would you say that's true? Jeff: Oh, absolutely. That's exactly what government, it really is. That's what government always does. You look at every election. They come up there, and they give all these promises. "I'm going to solve this for you. I'm going to solve that." They never solve anything. They're just extorting you and destroying everything in the process, and making everything worse in the process, but yeah. That's absolutely the case is, your average person just won't take responsibility for themselves and just say, "I don't need this person to run this entire country for me. I can run myself," and that sort of a thing. Of course, it gets a little interesting how that would all, we've been in statism now for hundreds of years, so to actually break away from it's going to be difficult. Jeff: That's actually why we're starting up numerous sort of countries across the world now, so we've started Liberland in Europe, which is near Croatia and Serbia, which is a new sort of anarcho-capitalist country that's just being started, and there's some few others working on buying some islands, and we're going to start some totally anarcho-capitalist free sort of places there. We're also seasteading, so we're trying to start up in the ocean, start up our own little, what you call countries. None of them are really like countries, because there's no real government, but it's a place that we're going to start up that it's going to be completely free. Then through that, hopefully we could show the world, because they've never really seen it, what life would be like in a true free market. Jeff: If, all evidence seems to point to when you have a totally free market that it's incredibly good for most people. It just increases the wealth dramatically, as we've seen, as I pointed out, in places like Hong Kong, Singapore, Dubai. Whenever you have a lot of freedom, everything gets a lot more prosperous. The only sort of question a lot of people have is, "What if you have total freedom? What would happen?" We don't really have any good examples for that yet, so we're hoping to start do that in the next couple of years and try to show the world the light that, really, this governmental sort of statism system with central banks, and all these sort of things, are just absolutely terrible. The best thing for all humanity is to get rid of those sort of things and not have a belief in their authority. Stefan: Sounds like a page out of Atlas Shrugged right now. You got all the productive smart people wanting to go start their own country or start their own island. This is, it's just human nature. It's all written down in the book. It's all happened before, and here's a thought, Jeff. I don't know if you thought about this. At some point, there probably was some nice, true freedom in the Wild West, maybe, Wild West America or some place, and then at some point, the people organized themselves. At some point, there's a government. At some point, there's a king. At some point, there's a good king. He dies, and then you got his son, the bad king. Stefan: Do you think we've had freedom in history at some point, like true freedom, and then it just got consolidated into power? Because it seems to me that whether you look at a market like a real estate market, or you look at a Monopoly board, or you look at anything in life with humans, it seems that there's like always a consolidation going on. There's a consolidation at some point where somebody just ends up taking over, and we just end up in that over and over again, and the dominoes fall down at some point. We reset. Do you think we can actually exist as free people, like truly, or do you think someone's going to seize power at some point? Jeff: Well, the thing is, if you have enough people who actually believe that freedom is the way to go, and they want to do that, then no one can seize power, because there's nothing there to seize. You pointed out rightly that over history, it appears that people have always been okay with giving away their power to someone else and hoping this guy takes care of them all, and that never works out for the best, just like communism, it just never works out well. Jeff: Yeah, that's actually been the case over time is that people seem to have always sort of gravitated into these sort of things, but at the same time, when you think about life even today, we actually live in a state of complete anarchy right now. It just so happens that there's a lot of governments on earth which you can just consider to be criminal organizations who are stealing and extorting people, and kidnapping people, and forcing them to do things they don't want to do, but we actually live in a state of anarchy. Jeff: Your average person, actually, every single day of their life, pretty much lives in anarchy. When you're in your home, or you're talking to your friends, or you go to work, that's just anarchy. That's just day-to-day life, and there's no one there telling you what to do, except for a street cop or whatever, a road pirate who might try to extort you if he thinks you're going a little too fast over a arbitrary speed limit or things like that, but generally kind of already live in anarchy. Really, the important thing to understand is that the word "government," what it really means, "govern" is, the word "govern" comes from the Latin [Latin 00:46:24] which means to control, which makes a lot of sense, and the word "ment." Jeff: There's a lot of different sort of where that came from, but I lived here in Mexico, Spanish, [Spanish 00:46:34] is mind, so really, government is mind control. It's controlling people's minds to make them believe that this thing has authority over them and that it's sort of taking care of them as well. This is where we get into Stockholm syndrome and things like that, where people actually begin to really adore their kidnapper, the person who has basically kept them enslaved. I see [inaudible 00:46:56]- Stefan: I wanted to give a gong. At some point, you got to stop for me to give you a gong. I didn't know that "government" meant mind control. It's really interesting, because if you control the information, you control the thoughts, and if you control the thoughts, you control the stories. You control the stories, you control the beliefs. If you control the beliefs, you control reality. It's almost like ... In Hard Times, I talk about we almost live in a 1984 future from George Orwell, and some of it's like Brave New World, Aldous Huxley, which was Orwell's mentor. We got half of our stuff is the American Aldous Huxley Brave New World future with orgies, and synthetic music, and all these women with narrow hips that don't bear children anymore, and we have alphas, and betas, and gammas, and deltas and all that stuff, and epsilons. Stefan: Then the other part of our world is like the 1984 future where there's three gigantic powers that are always at war with each other, and it's like a Stalinist future. What do you think about those two books right now, Jeff, like 1984, Brave New World, and what we got going on right now? Jeff: Yeah. Both those guys, both, I think they went, both went to Oxford or one of those major schools. They hung out with the same people like the Bush crime family and all those, so they hung out with what you could call the elites, or some people call them the Illuminati or whatever words you want to put to these sort of secret societies that mostly sort of are in these schools like Oxford and stuff like that. They were actually good friends, as you pointed out, and it's really amazing that that long ago, what is it, like 60, 70, 80 years ago, they wrote- Stefan: It was 1945- Jeff: ... these books. Stefan: ... I think. It was like right after World War II the books came out. Jeff: Yeah, so I can't do the math. I went to government schools, but 70 years ago, whatever it was, and they've really just roadmapped the exact both ways that we're going. Actually, they're both happening at the same time. The Aldous Huxley, Brave New World, that was a lot of bread and circuses. The people would be too dumbed down, which we're seeing, through fluoridization in the water, through all the government indoctrination camps, through the television programming, all that sort of stuff. People are just watching the Kardashians and all that. Jeff: The sports, so the sports ball games, and that sort of thing, so people, that's what Aldous Huxley was saying is, people would be too dumbed down and too into these things like sports and entertainment to even notice that they're enslaved. That's what we have today, especially in the U.S. Then on the other side, there was Orwell went the other way with a bit more it's like a hard, top-down dictatorship. You can't say anything. Everything's the opposite of what it means in political speak, which is what we have today. You brought up about how there's these certain sectors of the world that always at war. East Oceania's always at war with whatever the other one was. That's what we have today. It's like, who's at war with who? This War on Terror, it's a war on a feeling. It's a war on, it's like terror is a feeling. It's like, "I was terrified when I saw that. We need a war against that." It's like- Stefan: Well, we got the- Jeff: ... "Who are you [inaudible 00:49:47]" Stefan: ... War on Drugs which doesn't work. We got the War on Terror that doesn't work. You got the War on Cancer that doesn't work. You got all these wars. They keep just funneling money into a couple dudes' pockets, and the War on Drugs makes drugs worse. The War on Cancer makes cancer worse. The War on Terror makes terrorism worse. It's pretty scary how those things just simply don't work. Jeff: Yeah, and it's all by design, like the people who really do these things know this is what's going to happen. It's just sad that people keep falling for it, but people are slowly waking up thanks to the internet. Yeah, I even saw like, who's that blonde, fairly not attractive, woman on U.S. TV who's like a really mean, nasty sort of ... Anyway. She just came out, and she just said all these wars are just stupid. They're just like, like we shouldn't be doing them. She was like a total war sort of a person. This just came out. Jeff: People are starting to wake up, but the biggest issue is, they don't know what the answer is, and so that's why they keep going back to what you pointed out, which is this false left-right paradigm, which they tell everyone that's all there is. There's left or right or somewhere in the middle and there's nothing else, but that's a very narrow range of political spectrum. That's basically statism right there, and you can have left or right in statism, but there's a whole other spectrum of just not having governments whatsoever that could really free a lot of people. It's really growing, actually, like when we first started Anarchast, Anarchapulco, Anarchapulco started five years ago. It was 150 people. We're now expecting about 3,000 people. It's doubled every year. Stefan: Wow. Jeff: My show, Anarchast, a lot of people said no one had ever watched the show, but anarchy, that's crazy. They think anarchy is throwing bombs and all this sort of stuff, but it's catching on. People are catching on to a lot of this stuff now, so we're going to see what happens. We're at an amazing time in human history, because all these things are coming to a head all at the same time. All these governments are bankrupt. The central banks are about to go into hyperinflation. Then we have people waking up and starting to realize what's going on, and then you still have all these people in the universities who think that communism's the way out, so they'll probably try to push for that. Jeff: It's just amazing, incredible time, and there's going to be so much change in the next 10 years. I don't think anyone will believe what happens over the next 10 years. I couldn't even imagine what will happen, but I know it's going to be mind-blowing what happens. It's going to be that much change. Stefan: Yeah. It's unbelievable. Now, Jeff, I got to wrap up the show, but I want to ask you a couple questions I ask every guest, because I think they're cool. If you can go back in time to, let's say, 15-year-old Jeff and give yourself a piece of advice, what's a piece of advice you'd give yourself? Jeff: Oh, man. That's a good question. I would say work on yourself. I really just started working on myself over the last couple of years. I'm like 48 years old now, and it's changed my life dramatically. I didn't deal with a lot of my past issues, childhood issues, a lot of the programming that we get from our cult, our culture they call it, but our cult, through our younger years. That still stays in your head. I think if I would have, if I could go back, I'd say, "Buy Bitcoin as soon as you hear about it," and I'd- Stefan: [inaudible 00:52:55]. Jeff: ... say, "Work on yourself," like- Stefan: [inaudible 00:52:57] man. Jeff: I'd probably also say, "Don't go to the bars that much. Don't be having a lot of drunken sex. It's a total waste of time. Try to find a good girlfriend. Try to fix yourself and work on yourself more than anything." That's what I'd tell him. Stefan: Wow. Great answer. Top three books that changed your life. Jeff: A good question again. We talked about G. Edward Griffin earlier. The Creature from Jekyll Island was one of the first books that got me looking into all this stuff that I talk about today. That was a really important to my life. I'd say The Lord of the Rings is, I read it when I was very young. I used to love to read. I was probably like 12 or something. This giant book, it's even bigger than your book there. What I didn't realize about The Lord of the Rings that is interesting, I love the book, and I loved everything about it, and it wasn't until a couple years ago I realized that that ring of power was actually a metaphor for government power. I actually looked- Stefan: Wow. Jeff: ... into it a couple years ago, and J. R. R. Tolkien, who wrote the book, called himself an anarchist, so that entire book was an allegory about the problems caused by government. Those two books are pretty good. I guess the third book that I thought was really interesting, and it's like a pamphlet. You can read it in about two hours. It's called The Market for Liberty. You can actually find it online for free in PDF format, and it shows what the world could be like without government. When I read that book, it just blew my mind, because I'm sure if you even read it, you'd go, you'd be like me, you'd be like, "Wow, I never thought things could work that way or that ... " Jeff: They actually thought about how things would work without government, so there'd be like private security companies. Well, how would that work? Well, there'd be insurance as well, so the insurance companies ... For example, like people go, "Well, how would you put out fires without the government?" Which is kind of funny, because the government rarely puts out fires [inaudible 00:54:34]. Stefan: Fire insurance. Jeff: Yeah. Fire insurance, and then the insurance companies have all this insurance money, and they'll have to pay out a ton if there's a giant fire, so they actually put out fire stuff, and fire stations, and all that kind of stuff so it can all work in the free market. I think that book really, in just such a small amount of time, can really just show how the free market can handle everything. Stefan: Yeah. Well, that's great. I always, people say, "Well, who's going to pay for the roads?" Well, you just tax cars and gasoline. If you got a car and gas- Jeff: Not even tax, right, but like the businesses would own the roads. You would never put up ... Let's say you're Walmart, and you want to put up a Walmart somewhere and there's no road there. You're going to build the road, because you want people to get to your thing. Plus, not to mention there's already all roads. All roads that already exist. I don't know why people think they'll just disappear, but obviously like gas stations would have a giant interest to making sure there was roads, so they would probably do something. The gas stations would all work together and say, "Okay, let's take 10% of all of our money that we make every month and put it into maintaining the roads." Right? It's fairly basic sort of stuff. Stefan: Right. All right. Second last question today, Jeff. What's the one thing that young people need to succeed these days? Let's talk to the snowflakes. Let's talk to the millennials, the guy with the MacBook Pro at Starbucks. What's something you want to say to h

  Jeff: Welcome back to Emplify, the podcast corollary to EB Medicine’s Emergency Medicine Practice. I’m Jeff Nusbaum, and I’m back with my co-host, Nachi Gupta. This month, we’re talking about a topic… Nachi: … woah wait, slow down for a minute, before we begin this month’s episode – we should take a quick pause to wish all of our listeners a happy new year! Thanks for your regular listenership and feedback. Jeff: And we’re actually hitting the two year mark since we started this podcast. At 25 episodes now, this is sort of our silver anniversary. Nachi: We have covered a ton of topics in emergency medicine so far, and we are looking forward to reviewing a lot more evidence based medicine with you all going forward. Jeff: With that, let’s get into the first episode of 2019 – the topic this month is first trimester pregnancy emergencies: recognition and management. Nachi: This month’s issue was authored by Dr. Ryan Pedigo, you may remember him from the June 2017 episode on dental emergencies, though he is perhaps better known as the director of undergraduate medical education at Harbor-UCLA Medical center. In addition, this issue was peer reviewed by Dr. Jennifer Beck-Esmay, assistant residency director at Mount Sinai St. Luke’s, and Dr. Taku Taira, the associate director of undergraduate medical education and associate clerkship director at LA County and USC department of Emergency Medicine. Jeff: For this review, Dr. Pedigo had to review a large body of literature, including thousands of articles, guidelines from the American college of obstetricians and gynecologists or ACOG, evidence based Practice bulletins, ACOG committee opinions, guidelines from the American college of radiology, the infectious diseases society of America, clinical policies from the American college of emergency physicians, and finally a series of reviews in the Cochrane database. Nachi: There is a wealth of literature on this topic and Dr. Pedigo comments that the relevant literature is overall “very good.” This may be the first article in many months for which there is an overall very good quality of literature. Jeff: It’s great to know that there is good literature on this topic. It’s incredibly important as we are not dealing with a single life here, as we usually do... we are quite literally dealing with potentially two lives as the fetus moves towards viability. With opportunities to improve outcomes for both the fetus and the mother, I’m confident that this episode will be worth your time. Nachi: Oh, and speaking of being worth your time…. Don’t forget that if you’re listening to this episode, you can claim your CME credit. Remember, the indicates an answer to one of the CME questions so make sure to keep the issue handy. Jeff: Let’s get started with some background. First trimester emergencies are not terribly uncommon in pregnancy. One study reported 85% experience nausea and vomiting. Luckily only 3% of these progressed to hyperemesis gravidarum. In addition, somewhere between 7-27% experience vaginal bleeding or miscarriage. Only 2% of these will be afflicted with an ectopic pregnancy. Overall, the maternal death rate is about 17 per 100,000 with huge racial-ethnic disparities. Nachi: And vaginal bleeding in pregnancy occurs in nearly 25% of patients. Weeks 4-8 represent the peak time for this. The heavier the bleeding, the higher the risk of miscarriage. Jeff: Miscarriage rates vary widely based on age, with an overall rate of 7-27%. This rises to nearly 40% risk in those over 40. And nearly half of miscarriages are due to fetal chromosomal abnormalities. Nachi: For patient who have a threatened miscarriage in the first trimester, there is a 2-fold increased risk of subsequent maternal and fetal adverse outcomes. Jeff: So key points here, since I think the wording and information you choose to share with often scared and worried women is important – nearly 25% of women experience bleeding in their first trimester. Not all of these will go on to miscarriages, though the risk does increase with maternal age. And of those that miscarry, nearly 50% were due to fetal chromosomal abnormalities. Nachi: So can we prevent a miscarriage, once the patient is bleeding…? Jeff: Short answer, no, longer answer, we’ll get to treatment in a few minutes. For now, let’s continue outlining the various first trimester emergencies. Next up, ectopic pregnancy… Nachi: An ectopic pregnancy is implantation of a fertilized ovum outside of the endometrial cavity. This occurs in up to 2% of pregnancies. About 98% occur in the fallopian tube. Risk factors for an ectopic pregnancy include salpingitis, history of STDs, history of PID, a prior ectopic, and smoking. Jeff: Interestingly, with respect to smoking, there is a dose-relationship between smoking and ectopic pregnancies. Simple advice here: don’t smoke if you are pregnant or trying to get pregnant. Nachi: Pretty sound advice. In addition, though an IUD is not a risk factor for an ectopic pregnancy, if you do become pregnant while you have in IUD in place, over half of these may end up being ectopic. Jeff: It’s also worth mentioning a more obscure related disease pathology here – the heterotopic pregnancy -- one in which there is an IUP and an ectopic pregnancy simultaneously. Nachi: Nausea and vomiting, though not as scary as miscarriages or an ectopic pregnancy, represent a fairly common pathophysiologic response in the first trimester -- with the vast majority of women experiencing nausea and vomiting. And as we mentioned earlier, only 3% of these progress to hyperemesis gravidarum. Jeff: And while nausea and vomiting clearly sucks, they seem to actually be protective of pregnancy loss, with a hazard ratio of 0.2. Nachi: Although this may be protective of pregnancy loss, nausea and vomiting can really decrease the quality of life in pregnancy -- with one study showing that about 25% of women with severe nausea and vomiting had actually considered pregnancy termination. 75% of those women also stated they would not want to get pregnant again because of these symptoms. Jeff: So certainly a big issue.. Two other common first trimester emergency are asymptomatic bacteriuria and UTIs. In pregnant patients, due to anatomical and physiologic changes in the GU tract – such as hydroureteronephrosis that occurs by the 7th week and urinary stasis due to bladder displacement – asymptomatic bacteriuria is a risk factor for developing pyelonephritis. Nachi: And pregnant women are, of course, still susceptible to the normal ailments of young adult women like acute appendicitis, which is the most common surgical problem in pregnancy. Jeff: Interestingly, based on epidemiologic data, pregnant women are less likely to have appendicitis than age-matched non-pregnant woman. I’d like to think that there is a good pathophysiologic explanation there, but I don’t have a clue as to why that might be. Nachi: Additionally, the RLQ is the the most common location of pain from appendicitis in pregnancies of all gestational ages. Peritonitis is actually slightly more common in pregnant patients, with an odds ratio of 1.3. Jeff: Alright, so I think we can put that intro behind us and move on to the differential. Nachi: When considering the differential for abdominal pain or vaginal bleeding in the first trimester, you have to think broadly. Among gynecologic causes, you should consider miscarriage, septic abortion, ectopic pregnancy, corpus luteum cyst, ovarian torsion, vaginal or cervical lacerations, and PID. For non-gynecologic causes, you should also consider appendicitis, cholecystitis, hepatitis, and pyelonephritis. Jeff: In the middle of that laundry list you mentioned there is one pathology which I think merits special attention - ovarian torsion. Don’t forget that patients undergoing ovarian stimulation as part of assisted reproductive technology are at a particularly increased risk due to the larger size of the ovaries. Nachi: Great point. Up next we have prehospital care... Jeff: Always a great section. First, prehospital providers should attempt to elicit an ob history. Including the number of weeks’ gestation, LMP, whether an IUP has already been confirmed, prior hx of ectopic, and amount of vaginal bleeding. In addition, providers should consider an early destination consult both to select the correct destination and to begin the process of mobilizing resources early in those patients who really need them, such as those with hemodynamic instability. Nachi: As with most pathologies, the more time you give the receiving facility to prepare, the better the care will be, especially the early care, which is critical. Jeff: Now that the patient has arrived in the ED we can begin our H&P. Nachi: When eliciting the patient’s obstetrical history, it’s common to use the G’s and Ps. This can be further annotated using the 4-digit TPAL method, that’s term-preterm-abortus-living. Jeff: With respect to vaginal bleeding, make sure to ask about the number of pads and how this relates to the woman’s normal number of pads. In addition, make sure to ask about vaginal discharge or even about the passage of tissue. Nachi: You will also need to elicit whether or not the patient has a history of a prior ectopic pregnancies as this is a major risk for future ectopics. And ask about previous sexually transmitted infections also. Jeff: And, of course, make sure to elicit a history of assisted reproductive technology, as this increases the risk of a heterotopic pregnancy. Nachi: Let’s move on to the physical. While you are certainly going to perform your standard focused physical exam, just as you would for any non-pregnant woman - what does the evidence say about the pelvic exam? I know this is a HOTLY debated topic among EM Docs. Jeff: Oh it certainly is. Dr. Pedigo takes a safe, but fair approach, noting, “A pelvic exam should always be performed if the emergency clinician suspects that it would change management, such as identifying the source of bleeding, or identifying an STD or PID.” However, it is noteworthy that the only real study he cites on this topic, an RCT of pelvic vs no pelvic in those with a confirmed IUP and first trimester bleeding, found no difference between the two groups. Obviously, the pelvic group reported more discomfort. Nachi: You did leave out one important fact about the study enrollment - they only enrolled about 200 of 700 intended patients. Jeff: Oh true, so a possibly underpowered study, but it’s all we’ve got on the topic. I think I’m still going to do pelvic exams, but it’s something to think about. Nachi: Moving on, all unstable patients with vaginal bleeding and no IUP should be assumed to have an ectopic until proven otherwise. Ruptured ectopics can manifest with a number of physical exam findings including abdominal tenderness, with peritoneal signs, or even with bradycardia due to vagal stimulation in the peritoneum. Jeff: Perhaps most importantly, no history or physical alone can rule in or out an ectopic pregnancy, for that you’ll need testing and imaging or operative findings. Nachi: And that’s a perfect segue into our next section - diagnostic studies. Jeff: Up first is the urine pregnancy test. A UPT should be obtained in all women of reproductive age with abdominal pain or vaginal bleeding, and likely other complaints too, though we’re not focusing on them now. Nachi: The UPT is a great test, with nearly 100% sensitivity, even in the setting of very dilute urine. False positives are certainly plausible, with likely culprits being recent pregnancy loss, exogenous HCG, or malignancy. Jeff: And not only is the sensitivity great, but it’s usually positive just 6-8 days after fertilization. Nachi: While the UPT is fairly straight forward, let’s talk about the next few tests in the context of specific disease entities, as I think that may make things a bit simpler -- starting with bHCG in the context of miscarriage and ectopic pregnancy. Jeff: Great starting point since there is certainly a lot of debate about the discriminatory zone. So to get us all on the same page, the discriminatory zone is the b-HCG at which an IUP is expected to be seen on ultrasound. Generally 1500 is used as the cutoff. This corresponds nicely to a 2013 retrospective study demonstrating a bHCG threshold for the fetal pole to be just below 1400. Nachi: However, to actually catch 99% of gestational sacs, yolk sacs, and fetal poles, one would need cutoffs of around 3500, 18000, and 48,000 respectively -- much higher. Jeff: For this reason, if you want to use a discriminatory zone, ACOG recommends a conservatively high 3,500, as a cutoff. Nachi: I think that’s an understated point in this article, the classic teaching of a 1500 discriminatory zone cutoff is likely too low. Jeff: Right, which is why I think many ED physicians practice under the mantra that it’s an ectopic until proven otherwise. Nachi: Certainly a safe approach. Jeff: Along those lines, lack of an IUP with a bHCG above whatever discriminatory zone you are using does not diagnose an ectopic, it merely suggests a non-viable pregnancy of undetermined location. Nachi: And if you don’t identify an IUP, serial bHCGs can be really helpful. As a rule of thumb -- in cases of a viable IUP -- b-HCG typically doubles within 48 hours and at a minimum should rise 53%. Jeff: In perhaps one of the most concerning things I’ve read in awhile, one study showed that ⅓ of patients with an ectopic had a bCHG rise of 53% in 48h and 20% of patients with ectopics had a rate of decline typical to that of a miscarriage. Nachi: Definitely concerning, but this is all the more reason you need to employ our favorite imaging modality… the ultrasound. Jeff: All patients with a positive pregnancy test and vaginal bleeding should receive an ultrasound performed by either an emergency physician or by radiology. Combined with a pelvic exam, this can give you almost all the data necessary to make the diagnosis, even if you don’t find an IUP. Nachi: And yes, there is good data to support ED ultrasound for this indication, both transabdominal and transvaginal, assuming the emergency physician is credentialed to do so. A 2010 Meta-Analysis found a NPV of 99.96% when an er doc identified an IUP on bedside ultrasound. So keep doing your bedside scans with confidence. Jeff: Before we move on to other diagnostic tests, let’s discuss table 2 on page 7 to refresh on key findings of each of the different types of miscarriage. For a threatened abortion, the os would be closed with an IUP seen on ultrasound. For a completed abortion, you would expect a closed OS with no IUP on ultrasound with a previously documented IUP. Patients may or may not note the passage of products of conception. Nachi: A missed abortion presents with a closed os and a nonviable fetus on ultrasound. Findings such as a crown-rump length of 7 mm or greater without cardiac motion is one of several criteria to support this diagnosis. Jeff: An inevitable abortion presents with an open OS and an IUP on ultrasound. Along similar lines, an incomplete abortion presents with an open OS and partially expelled products on ultrasound. Nachi: And lastly, we have the septic abortion, which is sort of in a category of its own. A septic abortion presents with either an open or closed OS with essentially any finding on ultrasound in the setting of an intrauterine infection and a fever. Jeff: I’ve only seen this two times, and both women were incredibly sick upon presentation. Such a sad situation. Nachi: For sure. Before we move on to other tests, one quick note on the topic of heterotopic pregnancies: because the risk in the general population is so incredibly low, the finding of an IUP essentially rules out an ectopic pregnancy assuming the patient hasn’t been using assisted reproductive technology. In those that are using assisted reproductive technology, the risk rises to 1 in 100, so finding an IUP, in this case, doesn’t necessarily rule out a heterotopic pregnancy. Jeff: Let’s move on to diagnostic studies for patients with nausea and vomiting. Typically, no studies are indicated beyond whatever you would order to rule out other serious pathology. Checking electrolytes and repleting them should be considered in those with severe symptoms. Nachi: For those with symptoms suggestive of a UTI, a urinalysis and culture should be sent. Even if the urinalysis is negative, the culture may still have growth. Treat asymptomatic bacteriuria and allow the culture growth to guide changes in antibiotic selection. Jeff: It’s worth noting, however, that a 2016 systematic review found no reliable evidence supporting routine screening for asymptomatic bacteriuria, so send a urinalysis and culture only if there is suspicion for a UTI. Nachi: For those with concern for appendicitis, while ultrasound is a viable imaging modality, MRI is gaining favor. Both are specific tests, however one study found US to visualize the appendix only 7% of the time in pregnant patients. Jeff: Even more convincingly, one 2016 meta analysis found MRI to have a sensitivity and specificity of 94 and 97% respectively suggesting that a noncontrast MRI should be the first line imaging modality for potential appendicitis. Nachi: You kind of snuck it in there, but this is specifically a non-contrast MRI. Whereas a review of over a million pregnancies found no associated fetal risk with routine non-contrast MRI, gadolinium-enhanced MRI has been associated with increased rates of stillbirth, neonatal death, and rheumatologic and inflammatory skin conditions. Jeff: CT is also worth mentioning since MRI and even ultrasound may not be available to all of our listeners. If you do find yourself in such a predicament, or you have an inconclusive US without MRI available, a CT scan may be warranted as the delay in diagnosis and subsequent peritonitis has been found to increase the risk of preterm birth 4-fold. Nachi: Right, and a single dose of ionizing radiation actually does not exceed the threshold dose for fetal harm. Jeff: Let’s talk about the Rh status and prevention of alloimmunization. While there are no well-designed studies demonstrating benefit to administering anti-D immune globulin to Rh negative patients, ACOG guidelines state “ whether to administer anti-D immune globulin to a patient with threatened pregnancy loss and a live embryo or fetus at or before 12 weeks of gestation is controversial, and no evidence-based recommendation can be made.” Nachi: Unfortunately, that’s not particularly helpful for us. But if you are going to treat an unsensitized Rh negative female with vaginal bleeding while pregnant with Rh-immune globulin, they should receive 50 mcg IM of Rh-immune globulin within 72 hours, or the 300 mcg dose if that is all that is available. It’s also reasonable to administer Rh(d)-immune globulin to any pregnant female with significant abdominal trauma. Jeff: Moving on to the treatment for miscarriages - sadly there isn’t much to offer here. For those with threatened abortions, the vast majority will go on to a normal pregnancy. Bedrest had been recommended in the past, but there is little data to support this practice. Nachi: For incomplete miscarriages, if visible, products should be removed and you should consider sending those products to pathology for analysis, especially if the patient has had recurrent miscarriages. Jeff: For those with a missed abortion or incomplete miscarriages, options include expectant management, medical management or surgical management, all in consultation with an obstetrician. It’s noteworthy that a 2012 Cochrane review failed to find clear superiority for one strategy over another. This result was for the most part re-confirmed in a 2017 cochrane review. The latter study did find, however, that surgical management in the stable patient resulted in lower rates of incomplete miscarriage, bleeding, and need for transfusion. Nachi: For expectant management, 50-80% will complete their miscarriage within 7-10 days. Jeff: For those choosing medical management, typically with 800 mcg of intravaginal misoprostol, one study found this to be 91% effective in 7 days. This approach is preferred in low-resource settings. Nachi: And lastly, remember that all of these options are only options for stable patients. Surgical management is mandatory for patients with significant hemorrhage or hemodynamic instability. Jeff: Since the best evidence we have doesn’t suggest a crystal clear answer, you should rely on the patient’s own preferences and a discussion with their obstetrician. For this reason and due to the inherent difficulty of losing a pregnancy, having good communication is paramount. Nachi: Expert consensus recommends 6 key aspects of appropriate communication in such a setting: 1 assess the meaning of the pregnancy loss, give the news in a culturally competent and supportive manner, inform the family that grief is to be expected and give them permission to grieve in their own way, learn to be comfortable sharing the products of conception should the woman wish to see them, 5. provide support for whatever path she chooses, 6. and provide resources for grief counselors and support groups. Jeff: All great advice. The next treatment to discuss is that for pregnancy of an unknown location and ectopic pregnancies. Nachi: All unstable patients or those with suspected or proven ectopic or heterotopic pregnancies should be immediately resuscitated and taken for surgical intervention. Jeff: For those that are stable, with normal vitals, and no ultrasound evidence of a ruptured ectopic, with no IUP on ultrasound, -- that is, those with a pregnancy of unknown location, they should be discharged with follow up in 48 hours for repeat betaHCG and ultrasound. Nachi: And while many patients only need a single additional beta check, some may need repeat 48 hour exams until a diagnosis is established. Jeff: For those that are stable with a confirmed tubal ectopic, you again have a variety of treatment options, none being clearly superior. Nachi: Treatment options here include IM methotrexate, or a salpingostomy or salpingectomy. Jeff: Do note, however, that a bHCG over 5000, cardiac activity on US, and inability to follow up are all relative contraindications to methotrexate treatment. Absolute contraindications to methotrexate include cytopenia, active pulmonary disease, active peptic ulcer disease, hepatic or renal dysfunction, and breastfeeding. Nachi: Such decisions, should, of course, be made in conjunction with the obstetrician. Jeff: Always good to make a plan with the ob. Moving on to the treatment of nausea and vomiting in pregnancy, ACOG recommends pyridoxine, 10-25 mg orally q8-q6 with or without doxylamine 12.5 mg PO BID or TID. This is a level A recommendation as first-line treatment! Nachi: In addition, ACOG also recommends nonpharmacologic options such as acupressure at the P6 point on the wrist with a wrist band. Ginger is another nonpharmacologic intervention that has been shown to be efficacious - 250 mg by mouth 4 times a day. Jeff: So building an algorithm, step one would be to consider ginger and pressure at the P6 point. Step two would be pyridoxine and doxylamine. If all of these measures fail, step three would be IV medication - with 10 mg IV of metoclopramide being the agent of choice. Nachi: By the way, ondansetron carries a very small risk of fetal cardiac abnormalities, so the other options are of course preferred. Jeff: In terms of fluid choice for the actively vomiting first trimester woman, both D5NS and NS are appropriate choices, with slightly decreased nausea in the group receiving D5NS in one randomized trial of pregnant patients admitted for vomiting to an overnight observation unit. Nachi: Up next for treatment we have asymptomatic bacteriuria. As we stated previously, asymptomatic bacteriuria should be treated. This is due to anatomical and physiologic changes which put these women at higher risk than non-pregnant women. Jeff: And this recommendation comes from the 2005 IDSA guidelines. In one trial, treatment of those with asymptomatic bacteriuria with nitrofurantoin reduced the incidence of developing pyelonephritis from 2.4% to 0.6%. Nachi: And this trial specifically examined the utility of nitrofurantoin. Per a 2010 and 2011 Cochrane review, there is not evidence to recommend one antibiotic over another, so let your local antibiograms guide your treatment. Jeff: In general, amoxicillin or cephalexin for a full 7 day course could also be perfectly appropriate. Nachi: A 2017 ACOG Committee Opinion analyzed nitrofurantoin and sulfonamide antibiotics for association with birth defects. Although safe in the second and third trimester, they recommend use in the first trimester -- only when no other suitable alternatives are available. Jeff: For those, who unfortunately do go on to develop pyelo, 1g IV ceftriaxone should be your drug of choice. Interestingly, groups have examined outpatient care with 2 days of daily IM ceftriaxone vs inpatient IV antibiotic therapy and they found that there may be a higher than acceptable risk in the outpatient setting as several required eventual admission and one developed septic shock in their relatively small trial. Nachi: And the last treatment to discuss is for pregnant patient with acute appendicitis. Despite a potential shift in the standard of care for non pregnant patients towards antibiotics-only as the initial treatment, due to the increased risk of serious complications for pregnant women with an acute appy, the best current evidence supports a surgical pathway. Jeff: Perfect, so that wraps up treatment. We have a few special considerations this month, the first of which revolves around ionizing radiation. Ideally, one should limit the amount of ionizing radiation exposure during pregnancy, however avoiding it all together may lead to missed or delayed diagnoses and subsequently worse outcomes. Nachi: It’s worth noting that the American College of Radiology actually lists several radiographs that are such low exposure that checking a urine pregnancy test isn’t even necessary. These include any imaging of the head and neck, extremity CT, and chest x-ray. Jeff: Of course, an abdomen and pelvis CT carries the greatest potential risk. However, if necessary, it’s certainly appropriate as long as there is a documented discussion of the risk and benefits with the patient. Nachi: And regarding iodinated contrast for CT -- it appears to present no known harm to the fetus, but this is based on limited data. ACOG recommends using contrast only if “absolutely required”. Jeff: Right and that’s for iodinated contrasts. Gadolinium should always be avoided. Let me repeat that Gadolinium should always be avoided Nachi: Let’s also briefly touch on a controversial topic -- that of using qualitative urine point of care tests with blood instead of urine. In short, some devices are fda-approved for serum, but not whole blood. Clinicians really just need to know the equipment and characteristics at their own site. It is worth noting that there have been studies on determining whether time can be saved by using point of care blood testing instead of urine for the patient who is unable to provide a prompt sample. Initial study conclusions are promising. But again, you need to know the characteristics of the test at your ER. Jeff: One more controversy in this issue is that of expectant management for ectopic pregnancy. A 2015 randomized trial found similar outcomes for IM methotrexate compared to placebo for tubal ectopics. Inclusion criteria included hemodynamic stability, initial b hcg < 2000, declining b hcg titers 48 hours prior to treatment, and visible tubal pregnancy on trans vaginal ultrasound. Another 2017 multicenter randomized trial found similar results. Nachi: But of course all of these decisions should be made in conjunction with your obstetrician colleagues. Jeff: Let’s move on to disposition. HDS patients who are well-appearing with a pregnancy of undetermined location should be discharged with a 48h beta hcg recheck and ultrasound. All hemodynamically unstable patients, should of course be admitted and likely taken directly to the OR. Nachi: Also, all pregnant patients with acute pyelonephritis require admission. Outpatient tx could be considered in consultation with ob. Jeff: Patient with hyperemesis gravidarum who do not improve despite treatment in the ED should also be admitted. Nachi: Before we close out the episode, let’s go over some key points and clinical pearls... J Overall, roughly 25% of pregnant women will experience vaginal bleeding and 7-27% of pregnant women will experience a miscarriage 2. Becoming pregnant with an IUD significantly raises the risk of ectopic pregnancy. 3. Ovarian stimulation as part of assisted reproductive technology places pregnant women at increased risk of ovarian torsion. 4. Due to anatomical and physiologic changes in the genitourinary tract, asymptomatic bacteriuria places pregnant women at higher risk for pyelonephritis. As such, treat asymptomatic bacteriuria according to local antibiograms. 5. A pelvic exam in the setting of first trimester bleeding is only warranted if you suspect it might change management. 6. Unstable patients with vaginal bleeding and no IUP should be assumed to have an ectopic pregnancy until proven otherwise. 7. If you are to use a discriminatory zone, ACOG recommends a beta-hCG cutoff of 3500. 8. The beta-hCG typically doubles within 48 hours during the first trimester. It should definitely rise by a minimum of 53%. 9. For patients using assisted reproductive technology, the risk of heterotopic pregnancy becomes much higher. Finding an IUP does not necessarily rule out a heterotopic pregnancy. N. Send a urine culture for patients complaining of UTI symptoms even if the urinalysis is negative. J. The most common surgical problem in pregnancy is appendicitis. N, If MRI is not available and ultrasound was inconclusive, CT may be warranted for assessing appendicitis. The risk of missing or delaying the diagnosis may outweigh the risk of radiation. J. ACOG recommends using iodinated contrast only if absolutely required. N. For stable patients with a pregnancy of unknown location, plan for discharge with follow up in 48 hours for a repeat beta-hCG and ultrasound. J For nausea and vomiting in pregnancy, try nonpharmacologic treatments like acupressure at the P6 point on the wrist or ginger supplementation. First line pharmacologic treatment is pyridoxine. Doxylamine can be added. Ondansetron may increase risk of fetal cardiac abnormalities N So that wraps up episode 24 - First Trimester Pregnancy Emergencies: Recognition and Management. J: Additional materials are available on our website for Emergency Medicine Practice subscribers. If you’re not a subscriber, consider joining today. You can find out more at www.ebmedicine.net/subscribe. Subscribers get in-depth articles on hundreds of emergency medicine topics, concise summaries of the articles, calculators and risk scores, and CME credit. You’ll also get enhanced access to the podcast, including the images and tables mentioned. You can find everything you need to know at ebmedicine.net/subscribe. N: And the address for this month’s credit is ebmedicine.net/E0119, so head over there to get your CME credit. As always, the you heard throughout the episode corresponds to the answers to the CME questions. Lastly, be sure to find us on iTunes and rate us or leave comments there. You can also email us directly at emplify@ebmedicine.net with any comments or suggestions. Talk to you next month!  

It’s time for Toby Mathis and Jeff Webb of Anderson Advisors to answer your questions about taxes, the IRS, and much more. Do you have a tax question for them? Submit it to Webinar@andersonadvisors.com. Highlights/Topics: What is Nexus? Why do I care? Nexus is a state’s right to tax your income; different types (tax and physical), state laws, and throwback rule - how they affect you Does IRS reimburse me for corporate expenses? Misconception about reimbursement from the client’s company or IRS; IRS doesn’t give you money, but let’s you write it off How do I qualify for a real estate professional status? Requires 750 hours as #1 use of personal professional time; know importance of passive activity loss and logging time What are self-dealing rules for non-profits, IRAs, QRPs? Particular entities can’t interact with a disqualified person - can’t sell them anything; but self-dealing exceptions exist Am I dealer or investor? What’s the difference? Investor is passively involved, dealer is actively buying/selling real estate; can depend on the intent and timeframe Why set up an LLC that does flipping as a C or S Corp instead of a partnership? Because it’s taxed as ordinary income and subject to self-employment tax What is UBIT? Unrelated business income tax is when a plan/non-profit isn’t doing what it’s set up to do; can have passive activity until it competes with active businesses I hold rental property in a self-directed IRA. What can I do? There’s things you can/can’t do, especially add value to a property, so find a property manager and IRA custodian My wife’s previous employer’s stock options were exercised and have peaked. If we cash in, what’ll be the tax consequences/burden? Long-term capital gain and opportunity zone I’m helping a friend with a crowdfunding project. What are tax consequences with no deductions? Does he pay tax on donated money? No tax for less than $15,000 per donor How to aggregate all properties? Disadvantages? Election form that your print with your tax return to identify properties; doesn’t free up large losses tied up If real estate investing part time, are you considered a part-time investor? You’d be a part-time investor, not real estate professional; determining factor is to document time How do I get the 501(c)(3) tax-exempt? Use the 1023 application How do you create an LLC in an IRA? IRA custodian enters into a contract with a company to create an LLC, or set up a 401(k) to roll the IRA into it without a custodian Investing in LLC for holding rental property. How do you avail to a 1031 exchange? Need a 1031 exchange facilitator and LLC must buy or sell the next property within 180 days If I receive social security benefits at 62 and not currently employed, but do receive interest income. Will it affect my SS benefits? Can be isolated into its own taxable entity My wife and I are the only shareholders and both take a ⅓ salary. Is that the right amount? You should take a ⅓ of the net profit as salary instead How do you put an LLC on hold? Do nothing with it or pay the state; file non-activity return Will real estate holding LLC taxes partnership qualify for 20% pass-through deduction? Yes, if not triple net property For all questions/answers discussed, sign up to be a Platinum member to view the replay! Resources Anderson Advisors Tax and Asset Prevention Event Toby Mathis Anderson Advisors U.S. Supreme Court Reverses Long Standing Law On Collection Of Sales Taxes Northwest Energetic Services LLC vs. California Franchise Tax Board Throwback Rule SALT Limit After 24 years, wealthy inventor gets his day in tax court – and wins 10 Tax Deductions That Will Disappear Next Year Passive Activity Losses - Real Estate Tax Tips Real Estate Professional Status - Becoming More Important - Very Hard To Prove Acts of self-dealing by private foundation Unrelated Business Income Tax Opportunity Zones Frequently Asked Questions About Form 1099-INT | Internal Revenue Service Exemption Requirements - 501(c)(3) Organizations Form 1023 Taxbot MileIQ Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, Provision 11 011 Section 199A - Qualified Business Income Deduction FAQs   Full Episode Transcript Toby: Alright, welcome to Tax Tuesday, this is Toby Mathis joined by our tax manager Jeff Webb. Jeff: How do you do? Toby: We're going to get jumping on here. We're just going to jump right in. no time like the present to just get business done. So first off, happy Tuesday. Second off, let's jump into a bunch of questions that are giving us a steady feed from folks even before we got started. I'm sure I'll be more happy than to answer your questions. I also got emails in from folks that I may be trying to make sure I answer all of those and we'll just make sure that we're getting through each and every question to the extent humanly possible within this hour. So the first one is, what is Nexus and why do I care. Second one is going to be, does the IRS reimburse me for my corporate expenses. Third one is, how do I qualify for real estate professionals, technically real estate professional status. What are self doing rules for nonprofits in QRPs. I'm going to throw in IRAs in there as well. Am I a dealer or an investor, what difference does it make. Those are the ones that we're going to hit one after the other in succession. I'm making sure that we're getting through these. So the first one is, what is nexus and why do I care. Jeff, do you want to hit tax nexus because there's different types of nexus. There's physical presence for lawsuits and there's tax nexus for taxation. I'm going to have Jeff hit the tax and then I'll touch base on the physical nexus. Jeff: So when we're talking about tax nexus what we're primarily talking about is a state's right to tax you on your income. For example, you may live in Nevada, have a rental property in California. California has a right to tax any income on that property because you're doing business within California. There are different roles, there have been numerous cases on nexus. Toby: Most recently, our Supreme Court reversed a physical presence test that the error that Amazon, everybody that was an online retailer use to avoid state sales tax and that was just changed. Jeff: Yeah, on that one in particular the Supreme Court as Toby said, gave the states the right to tax online sales in their states. The thing is, the states now have to write tax walls to accomplish this. Most of the states don't have anything that accomplishes this. Toby: A lot of times, ignorance is bliss. People would avoid sales tax like for example, I live in Washington, Florida, Oregon and avoid the sales tax and they ignored Washington's use tax. A lot of states have this. You don't pay sales tax and you go someplace where there is no sales tax, you still owe sales tax on it but they call it use tax because you brought the physical item into your state and you never paid sales tax on it. So then they would say, "Aha." And the really interesting thing – there were actually some interesting cases that were popping up from the nexus, ones that came out of Washington, was Northwest Energetic Services too and that was a case in California where they tried to tax an organization that was registered to do business there that didn't actually do any business in California but they wanted to tax its worldwide revenue. The franchise tax board of the board of equalization lost that one and they had a few others but what you'll find is that this is a continuously active in generating area of tax law and we tend to fall into the category of ask for forgiveness not for permission all the time because if you ask a state whether you should be paying tax, they will gladly say yes even if it's not a legitimate tax. They'll tell you that you have to pay it even though it's made to be unconstitutional, unlawful, you fill in the blank. Even if you don't owe it, they'll oftentimes just answer, "Yes, of course you should." They can't actually be giving you any tax advice anyway so it's the wrong party to be asking. I'm sure Jeff you get to deal with that more than I do. Jeff: Yeah, in a state like California, it used to be an old joke for the CPA's that you could be flying over the state of California, make enough business phone call and California would want to so you have nexus and we can now tax you. They're also a state that's very difficult to leave if you're a resident. We had a case where somebody, NBA player for the Sacramento Kings was traded to Seattle Sonics and moved there. Toby: Yeah, now the Oklahoma City Thunder, I was there when they move, horrible. Jeff: The state of California wanted to say, "No, you're still resident of California, we're still going to be taxing you because you got friends here and you have club ownership, some relationships. California in particular is very tenacious with Nexus. Toby: Yeah, so you're going to see things evolving over the next few years since the Supreme Court decision was literally this last, I think it was just months ago or end of the year last year. You're going to see the states trying to fill in the blanks. So you have some states for example in drop shipping, Pennsylvania would tax you if you drop ship out of their state where it used to not be, other states did before. We were talking earlier before the webinar, Jeff and I were talking about what is like a claw back. Jeff: Yeah, it's called a throwback rule that says if your sales into a state that doesn't have taxes then where it got shipped from can tax instead. Toby: Somebody's asked, what are the worst three states for nexus. It really depends on what you're doing, but I would say just off the top of my head probably New York, Connecticut and California. They're pretty heinous. Look at the states that just filed a lawsuit against the federal government under the SALT limitation which is the State and Local Tax Limitation. You'll see I think there was four states Maryland was one of them, where they try to hit you with so many different taxes. It's not just business, it's on your personal as well. It's just for nexus, for a person, it's really easy to figure out, "Hey, where do you live?" Because when I say it's easy, it can be difficult if you have two residences that you spend time with equally. They're going to add up things like how much utility you use, where your driver's license is. Where your kids go to school, where your vehicles are registered, you're going to look at those types of things. There's Hyatt v. Commissioner Case or what was it, Hyatt versus board of equalization I think is actually what it was. Where a gentleman moved to Nevada and the California franchise tax board sent agents to Nevada they climbed to his garage and break into his apartment to prove that he was actually residing more in California than he was in Nevada because his tax bill would've been so great and when they got caught, they said they're immune. Our Supreme Court and Scully I remember the opinion was scathing on them saying, "No, you're immune in your jurisdiction. When you cross the state lines, don't expect any immunity." They just harassed that poor guy. They were climbing around his house. So let's just narrow it down though. You asked a question what is nexus. There's two sides, there's tax nexus and then there's physical nexus. In the physical nexus again where you reside, it's pretty easy. If you live there, then you have a physical nexus in that state, it's where you have a house. In the business it's no different. In a business, you have to decide where it's going to have its main presence and the courts have held having a bare office and nothing more isn't going to be sufficient. You actually have to do something there. That's when you actually have to have a physical office space. We use virtual office where it's doing more than just maintaining a registered agent. There we're actually giving conference facilities, phone answering, we'll do document prep and things like that for the governance of the company so the company can actually have a physical presence. The reason that you do that is to make sure it has a home. So if somebody's coming after one of its shareholders or members, one of its owners that it does not draw that entity into the state where they're located. So, if I have owners in a company and I have my company set up in Wyoming and they sue me in Nevada and they sue somebody else in Texas and somebody else in Florida, you don't have a choice between the Nevada, Texas and Florida where the shareholder or where the members of the LLC are located, they would actually have to go to Wyoming where the actual entity is located. That's what you're trying to do. So if Anderson does my meeting notes, that's why that's important. We're not talking about Canadian, US the nexus pass. I could tell you a fun one. We had a client that just got nailed by California. It's actually under the FBAR which is Foreign Bank Account Regulations. They had some interest on a bank account that was there for a condo they had in Whistler and they sold the condo in Whistler and they didn't report, I think it was like $70 or $76 worth of interest. Jeff do you know these off the top of your head? How much the penalty is? Jeff: No. Toby: If the IRS catches you, it's 50% of the account balance per year. But if you go under amnesty which they have taken an amnesty was a $38,000 fine which they paid for that $76. Canada is still offshore. Anyway, so what is nexus and why do I care. It gets a little convoluted but the reason you care is you don't want to draw your company into your state, you want to make it very difficult for somebody to get a hold of your assets if they're coming after you. From a tax standpoint, it matters because we want to keep our business activities to the extent possible in the lowest taxing jurisdiction as humanly possible. So that's that one. Jeff this is one of your favorites, I know. Does the IRS reimburse me for my corporate expenses? Jeff: Of course they do. IRS is really giving out money. We get this question more often than you would think. I think it's a misconception that clients are being told that their companies can reimburse them for certain expenses which will reduce our taxes and sometimes the clients are hearing IRS is going to reimburse us. The only time you get back money from IRS is if you pay money into IRS for taxes and you don't owe them any tax or maybe overpaid them. Toby: Yeah. IRS is a policing agency. Your taxes when you pay it, they don't even go to the IRS, it goes to the US treasury. So the IRS is merely, pay my boss, is all they are. So they don't give any money out whatsoever so the IRS does not reimburse you for your corporate expenses. What the IRS does is it enforced the laws which is the United States code and issues regulations interpreting that code and is basically the enforcement arm for the US department of treasury. What ends up happening for corporation is they're allowed to reimburse shareholders many expenses that are not included on the shareholder's personal tax returns. So it sometimes seems like they're giving you money when in all reality, they're allowing you to not pay tax on your expenses which is always the battle because there's lots of rules out there that say things are not deductible. Nothing more telling them what we just had happened in this tax change where they eliminated all miscellaneous itemized deductions. All of them are gone in case you've been sleeping. In 2018, you do not get to write them off anymore. Jeff: Now that's your union dues, your tax preparation fees. Toby: Any unreimbursed business expense if you're a teacher and you're providing stuff for your classroom, you don't get to write it off. Jeff: If you're paying substantial amounts to your broker for advisory fees. Toby: That's a huge one. We're going to see that one come back and bite people in their touché. Jeff: That's no longer deductible. Toby: So it's horrible. So no, the IRS does not reimburse you for your corporate expenses. Your corporation reimburses you for your corporate expenses and the IRS lets you write it off. How do I qualify for real estate professional status. Jeff do you want to play with this one or do you want me to handle it? Jeff: I'll do a little and then you can correct me. So real estate professional has a hours commitment. I believe it's 750 hours a year. Toby: So it's a minimum of 750 hours. There's a second part to that too, you know that. Jeff: And the 750 hours can be earned by you or your spouse. What's your second one? Toby: The second one is it has to be the number one use of your personal professional time. Jeff: Oh, correct. Toby: The way I always explain this is if you did 1001 hours doing bicycle repair and you did 1000 hours of real estate, you do not qualify as a real estate professional. But if it's reversed and you did 1000 hours of bicycle repair you did 1001 hours of real estate activities, then you do. And the reason this is important is because ordinarily, your real estate expenses are offset your real estate income and you can only take losses from real estate. In other words, the excess depreciation, or repairs, or whatever, your losses are limited to $3000 a year against your other active income. So that's called the passive activity loss rule. Jeff: $25,000. Toby: If you materially participate and then you have $100,000 to $150,000 scale up. There's some little nuances which don't bring your head with. At the end of the day, there are restrictions on taking passive activity loss. Real estate professional status removes that restriction. The other thing that's really important about real estate professional status is it is per property. So if you have three properties, you'd have to meet it for each of the three unless you elect to aggregate all your properties on your tax return. We have seen this missed by accountants who don't do real estate. They don't aggregate and there are actually cases on the book where people had to fight and they literally had tons of properties they easily met the 750 if you aggregate it but their accountants miss the aggregation election. Jeff: And the sum of 750 hours is not just for your rental properties. Toby: Any real estate. Jeff: Any real estate activity. Toby: Yeah. Jeff was actually right when he said your spouse could qualify, either you or your spouse if you're filing jointly. Jeff: So if you have a full time job and you're getting a W2, I can guarantee you that you will not legally qualify. Under audit, you're going to lose. However, if you have a full time job and your wife does not or your husband does not, they can qualify to be that real estate professional. Toby: We had a fun one. A good friend of ours and a colleague in Georgia was making somewhere between $2 million and $3 million a year in his professional practice. His wife qualified as a real estate professional and he quite literally bought enough commercial property and did something called cost segregation where you're rapidly depreciating it where he generated enough loss off the real estate to offset his income. The IRS audited it, he is self represented because he knew the rule. It withheld, he stood up. His wife just did their real estate activities and he did their practice and at the end of the day, she met the requirement for the real estate professional status and the rule is pretty straightforward. IRS didn’t like the outcome but that's not their job. So they picked a fight and lost the audit which is not uncommon. All right, so how do I qualify for a real estate professional. Keep a log of your time and make sure that you're aggregating all of your real estate activities. Even if it's for a closely held company, it's still going to match, it's still going to work. Next one, what are the self dealing rules for nonprofits in QRPs. I'm going to add in there IRAs as well since when we talk about a qualified retirement plan, we're really talking about 401K and 401A. This is going to dovetail in with one of our other questions that came in off the internet as well. But here's how it works. If you are in a particular type of entity where it says you cannot interact and engage in business with a disqualified person, you could not sell them a $1 million building for $1. It is an absolute prohibition against self dealing. The most important first step is determining whether or not you're within one of those rules. Then if you are, then you look and say are there any exceptions to that rule. So for nonprofits, nonprofits are going to fall into broad categories foundations, private foundations are one. These are nonprofits that aggregate money and give money to other nonprofits, they don't do anything. And in that one, you have an absolute bar from self dealing. The next one is an operating nonprofit that is doing something and in that case, you just have to use arm's length transactions. So we look at that, that's our step number one. So let's go back to the first one, private foundations then you look and say, are there any exceptions. The only exception is reasonable compensation, it can always be reasonably compensated. But other than that, no more transactions. So for nonprofits 501(c)(3) you can enter into transactions as long as it's an operating nonprofit. It can give you benefits, it can pay you and it can engage in sales and other transactions between you and the agencies so long as they are arm's length. And the way you make sure it is arm's length is you have non-interested parties looking at it saying, "Hey, that looks okay to me." somebody who doesn't have a dog in the fight. Now we go to QRPs and IRAs. In either one of those, you have absolute prohibitions against self dealing with disqualified parties and disqualified parties are lineal descendants which would be grandparents, children and their spouses, great children and their spouses. It does not include your siblings. So what's interesting is you could actually engage in transactions with your IRA for example, loan money to your brother. You cannot loan money to your mother. You could not loan money to your kids or your grandkids, you could not do a second on their house, you could not do anything between the company. You could not buy a house from them. That is an absolute bar that's called, disqualified party. Jeff: The way I kind of look at it as to whether you may be violating self dealing rules is, are you benefitting from a transaction between you and the nonprofit or the QRP or the IRA. That's really what they're out to prevent. And unfortunately the rules are pretty severe for violations of the self dealing. Toby: If you self-deal, you're just going to disqualify your IRA. If you're using a QRP and you're using a 401K, then we have different rules, and in that particular case, it would just disqualify the money that you actually were utilizing. Their far more lenient. Jeff: I had a client who had a QRP, it was actually defined benefit plan, who had a required minimum distribution to make and the plan was not funded at the time. The client had to make a loan to the QRP, which is a self-dealing but unfortunately there's an exception for that that one was quickly repaid. There was no profit or interest earned on it. Toby: Was it within the 60 days? Jeff: I believe it was within 60 days. Toby: There's some more fun stuff. Then we go into the 401Ks and this is where you get into people acting on behalf of the company. I know that there were some questions, that were already posed in the chat feature here. You're not supposed to be getting any personal benefit or using those funds at all when you have an IRA or a 401K. In an IRA, it's much more severe because you have a custodian. So if a renter for example is paying you money and they pay it to you individually, technically you have a violation of the self dealing rules because you just received money. Even if you go ahead and put it right back in the IRA, you're going to have an issue because technically you weren't supposed to receive the money, the custodian was supposed to be receiving the money. So you should actually have rental money going to your custodian if you’re using an IRA. If you’re using a 401K or 401A, which the profit sharing plan or 401K, then you are the trustee and you're able to accept the money and endorse it right into the account and make sure that the money goes to the right place. IRA's are a little more difficult. To get around this, a lot of people with IRA's will set up an LLC which you can be the manager of. Actually, the IRA is technically the member— you're in non compensated role and we have to make sure that the LLC agreement says that if we drafted it, then we make sure that we're putting in the non-prohibitionals. You cannot personally benefit from these activities. It has to all go back to the retirement plan. People will do the LLC and they will be all right, now I can go ahead and accept the funds through the LLC, that's how they do with an IRA. If you're doing with the 401K, we're going to suggest that you still set up an LLC anytime you have real estate, just because we don't want the liability to flow through to you. But there, now, you don't need the custodian. You could technically do it inside the 401K directly though you should still have the LLC and it's the same scenario where you're able to accept the proceeds. That's not going to be a technical violation because you're acting on behalf of the plan. And that is not a violation of the self dealing rules. So the biggest takeaway from all this, is that you can act on behalf of the plan. The second a just qualified person starts to get personal benefit, you have violated the rules and if it's an IRA, the whole thing is violating—considered a taxable event, which should be that 10% penalty plus income tax on it for the entire amount if it's at 401K or 401A, it would just be the portion that you violated. We tend to be very bullish on using 401Ks and 401A's, profit sharing plans around here also known as QRP. And this is why, because they're far more forgiving and they have a less moving pieces. I hope that explains that. We're going to have—I know there's a couple more questions that are in here, that are going to be relevant to this section as well. Let me jump on to something. The questions, this is something you can ask detailed questions via our email. I will answer them, Jeff or Tony, whoever's from the tax department here. We will answer these on the tax Tuesday. We will also more likely be responding back out to you directly as well because we want to make sure you get your questions answered, but just jot down that address, webinar@andersonadvisors.com and feel free to shoot them in. Since our last one, Tax Tuesday, we had a couple of questions and I want to go through these. Number one was from Karen out of Alaska, "I have a revocable trust in Alaska that owns and sells real property, does the trust to pay income taxes on the profit or does the profit end up on my personal tax return? Is it taxed at the same rate as everything else? So the most important word she used in her question was revocable, because trust come in two flavors, revocable are irrevocable. If they're irrevocable, then we have two choices, we don't have to worry about the irrevocable.. Since it's revocable, it's a grand tour trust is ignored, it's you, for tax purposes until your dead. So you're good, sorry, sometimes I'm blunt. So if you're buying and selling real estate, real property it's taxed no differently than if you're on the real property. Now here's the rub, it also gives you know asset protection. So revocable trust is giving you know asset protection with that real property, so I would really strongly suggest that the revocable trust actually be the owner of an LLC that is buying and selling the real estate and depending on how quickly you are turning this, will depend on whether that say, S or a C-Corp., if it's a flip versus if it is a long-term holds, then we just put it as an LLC. It would either be disregarded or taxed as a partnership. We want it to flow under our return. Those are kind of our choices. There was a question, I don't know if I got to that. I'm going to skip back to our slides. There's something about—Am I a dealer or an investor? So I want to make sure that I'm getting this one right here. Because this is relevant to one of these questions. A dealer and an investor is something that we talk about in real estate, you want to hit on this? Jeff: No, you're doing fine. Toby: An investor is someone who's passively involved, a dealer is somebody who is actively buying and selling real estate. So if you buy real estate with the intent to hold it for its long term appreciation cash flow, then you are an investor. If you buy real estate with the intent to sell it, then you are a dealer. The easiest way to conceptualize this is if I am an investor, I am passive. If I am a dealer, then I am a supermarket with inventory. And I'm putting my real estate on a shelf and it's constantly for sale. Just like at your grocery store, it may take a couple years for something to sell. I'm just imagining the items that are on the shelf. Jeff: Your durable goods. Toby: Right, so you sell something, I used to do liquidation. We would grab all the expired items we would sell them but let's say, it doesn't matter how long you held them. A lot of people think, well if I held it over a year, I can't be a dealer. That's not the case, we actually have cases on the book where they held it over 10 years. What matters is what your intent was when you buy it. And the difference it makes is active income versus passive income. The difference is an investor can 1031 exchange and defer all other taxes. An investor can get long-term capital gains, an investor can do installment sales, an investor can spread out the tax liability over a long period of time. Whereas a dealer is active. It's subject to social security taxes, it's taxable immediately even if you don't receive the money. It is active ordinary income, it's no difference than I just sold that box of Cheerios on the shelf that I've been waiting to sell. It makes a huge difference. Dealer activity we're going to isolate inside of an S-Corp or a C-Corp. Investor activity, we're going to make sure it flows on your personal return either by using a disregarded LLC or a partnership LLC, one of the two. Jeff: Intent has really made a difference in a couple of cases. One, where somebody bought a property that they go allow their child to live in, something end up happening then they sold it after a short time. They were considered to be an investor not a dealer. Toby: It doesn't even matter. It does not matter whether you ever rented it, there's plenty of cases where somebody tried to rent it and they were going to use it as a long term hold and then things change and they sold it. Just know that if you buy or sell within a year, the presumption is going to be that you're a dealer. If you hold for over a year, the presumption is going to be that you're an investor but it's not a guarantee. We're going to get back to these questions. How does Flip LLC income flow into S-Corp and then what will be distributions of the seller? So, we talked a little bit about this last week but I'm going to go and we're going to hit this. When you set up an LLC, it doesn't exist to the IRS. So when you say how does the Flip LLC flow into S-Corp, it doesn't. A Flip LLC is an S-Corp if you elect to have it be treated that way with the IRS. The income is just going into an S-Corp. Then you have to decide what your salary will be because if you know anything about an escort S-Corp, you want to make sure you pay yourself a reasonable salary if it's making money. The rule of thumb to use is, one third of your net income should be paid out as salary. That's just a rule of thumb but it's all in all reality the IRS has this funky test where you're supposed to say, "Hey, what would it be? What could it be paid?" they never tell us exactly. So I'll just say this, pay a third, don't worry about it. If you get too much money, if you start making over $300,000, then we're going to have a chat but where you're going to be on our radar anyway, we're going to be making sure you're paying a reasonable salary anyway. The reason this is important is because the salary is subject to old age death and survivors in Medicare also known as FICA or social security and the distributions are not. So what you would do is you'd be cutting your social security tax by about two thirds if you did it that way. I hope that explains it. So it makes its money and it pays it out. We do need to make sure that if you're flipping, that the money goes into the LLC. Jeff: A quick comment on distributions on an S-Corporation. Distributions are typically the money that's already been taxed are in you're just pulling the cash out. What you don't want to do is go out and get a bank loan in S-Corporation and take distributions from that for several reasons. One, you don't have basis in those distributions. Two, it gets into the whole finance distribution issues and things of that nature. So you really only want to be pulling money out of the company that you’ve already been taxed on. Toby: Fair enough and then if you don't pull any money out of an LLC that's taxed as an S-Corp, you don't technically have to pay yourself a salary. You just let it sit in there and keep growing which your accountant is not going to tell you because they don't know that. The reason I know that is because I have spoken to probably 100 accountants that missed that one. It says, why do you want the LLC that does flipping set up as an S-Corp or C-Corp instead of a partnership? Mark, we were just talking about that because it's taxed as ordinary income as subject to self employment tax. So the reason we want that in an SRC is so that you do not get classified as a dealer because then all of your real estate is dealer real estate and you could lose all your long-term capital gains, you to lose your 1031, you could lose your installment sale. So we want it to be a separate taxpayer from you so the IRS notes clearly who the investor is and who the dealers is and then you can reduce the amount of tax hit by using the S-Corp that will reduce your self-employment tax significantly, if you add a 401K to it, you could eliminate your tax or defer it out into the future. If you use a C-Corp, then depending on what your expenses are, we can also eliminate all your tax or at least reduce it significantly. So that's why we use that. All right, we have a whole bunch of questions to go through so I'll go through this. What is UBIT and UBITA. UBIT is unrelated business income tax and the easiest way to understand this is when you have a tax deferred entity or tax, it's not actually a tax rates, it can be tax rate if it's a Roth but when you have a qualified plan or a nonprofit and it is not doing what it's set up to do, so let's say in an IRA or a 401K or a 401A, or a nonprofit, they're all set up to do certain things. They're allowed to have a passive activity which is rents, royalties, dividends, interest, even capital gains and it can have those and you don’t have to worry about it at all. But once it starts competing with other businesses, active businesses, now you have an issue and that's what's called—let's say that you have these ordinary businesses. Then they would be taxed, generally speaking it's going to be the highest rate at 37% I believe is what it's going to be as kind of a disincentive to engage in traditional businesses inside those exempt organizations. The easiest way to look at this, let's say you set up an IRA and it runs a mini mart, you're going to pay tax on those profits just like anybody else would. The exception is if that IRA owns a corporation that does not pay out the profits directly. It would have to own C-Corp and then it would only receive dividends and then those are considered passive. So it gets funny and a little bit difficult. The other one is let's say you set up a nonprofit, that's for—what's a good one? Helping Vet and then it sets up a pizza business on the side and starts competing, it buys a bunch a Domino's franchises. It's going to pay tax on the Domino's franchise. It doesn't get a big huge competitive advantage selling pizzas because it's a nonprofit. It would have to be for its charitable purpose and that's UBIT. Jeff: One place we see a lot is like hospitals, they're usually tax exempt but they may have a gift shop which they have to pay the business income tax on because it's not directly supporting them but it is a business. Toby: But you're allowed to do that for like what is it, Salvation Army and some these other thrift stores. They'll let you have one for a church and whatnot. If it's ancillary, if it's completely ancillary and it's just being used like thrift stores I think are one of the few exceptions, gift shop absolutely, you're head to head. Here's another one and I think that this may be what Diane was looking at, it's debt financed income. What that is, is if I'm using the leverage, then there's an exception for IRA's where it cannot use loans to generate income, it's considered an unrelated debt financed income. It will be taxable That is not the case for 401Ks and for 401As, which is what—if you've ever been to one of our events, you hear us railing on the idea that if you are going to finance real estate, real estate is considered passive and it's considered okay not UBIT. The only way you make it taxable is if you leverage it inside of an IRA, so don't do that. If you're going to leverage it, make sure your rolling that IRA into a 401K or profit sharing plan which is the 401A. So there, that's my two cents. I figure that maybe they had a funky—UBITA, I have no idea what that is, but it looks neat. I think they were probably referring to get financed income, since those things usually go side by side. All right, we have a ton of questions that have been posed and this is so much fun, we have like literally a jillion questions, if that's the number. All right, so here's the first one, if I cash out refinance or borrow an equity loan from my primary residence, use the money to do private lending by rental property, can I deduct the interest expense as an investment expense beyond $750,000 amount? They're throwing some things in here. This is actually a really long question, I'm giving you the thumbnail sketch of it. Hey guys email those types of questions in, because nobody's going to be out to follow this, but here's what here's what they're saying, we now have a restriction on your mortgage interest, it's $750,000. If you borrow on your house, and by the way it's $750,000 now, if you had a loan on it up to $1 million, you're grandfathered in, if those prior to what was it, 12/15/2017, you're good or if you got your long before April 15th and you already started the process before December 15, don't you make my head hurt. Long and short of it is, let's say $750,000, but your house is worth $1.5 million. You borrow money out of your house. You will not be writing that off personally, you are capped at $750,000 and that's on your schedule A. Whether or not you're getting any benefit out of that is to be seen because you have your standard deduction. I imagine it's going to be above the standard deduction if you're borrowing up to $750,000. Let's just say we have our $750,000 and we borrowed an extra $500,000, it can't go on your schedule A, but it can go someplace else. The someplace else would be, for example, if I put it into my schedule E, because I'm using it to buy rental property. Then I can use the income of the rental property and I can use the interest being paid as a separate expense, it's just going on a different tax form. The other route that you can go is, if I give that $500,000 and I loan it to a corporation and the corporation re-loans, in the words the corporation is going out loaning its money out and it's reimbursing my interest, then in all reality the loan is really to the corp, and I'm not getting any tax benefit but the corporation is reducing its income by reimbursing me the right to use basically my line of credit. This is no different than if you do this with your credit card. It's reimbursing you, so you make no money on it, but you don't pay tax on it, it such a fancy work around. That's number one. Next question, I hold rental property in a self directed IRA. I do tenant screening, manage the rental, hire vendors to do the repair work and I don't physically work on the house. Good, because you can't physically work on the house, you can do everything else, you can hire, do screening. I would actually have a property manager on it. All income expenses come and goes to the same self directed IRA account, hopefully that's with the custodian or you have an LLC, disregarded to the IRA. Somebody asked this, the IRA custodian sets up the LLC, you can't do it. You shouldn't be going out and doing it yourself, paying your money, you should actually have the IRA do it to keep it clean. Is it allowed? Yes, some people say, "If only I don't work on the house myself, that's okay," and they're correct. Some people say, even screening, collecting rent is not allowed, can you please clarify? You should not receive the money, the IRA should receive the money, you can direct you to the custodian though. You can even get the check and hand it to the custodian, forward it to the custodian, whatever, as long as what you're doing is not adding value to the property. That's the big no, no. Don't go get a paint brush and start painting the house because you're increasing the value to your personal efforts. Next question, my wife's previous employer stock options were exercised and we feel have peaked, cost basis 132, market value 280, if we cash in, what will be the tax consequences and how can we reduce the tax burden? We need to pull the trigger shortly. Aziz, this is you, there's two ways you can do this. First off, you're going to end up with long term capital gains, so it's not horrible. Secondly, there's something called an opportunity zone which just enacted at the end of the year and the just published out all these zones. If you reinvest the money in a opportunity zone, you defer to the tax. In the opportunity zones, there's tons of them. It's any neighborhood that is considered—that needs public support and there's a laundry list. I would actually encourage you to go Google, opportunity zone, tax and you'll find a big old list. But the communities in your area that are typically low to moderate income house. If you took your entire amount of increase, so let's say that we have $150,000 of taxable capital gains, you could buy $150,000 of opportunity zone properties and pay zero tax. Now, the question is, what happens when I sell? So there's holding periods and the minimum holding period, I believe, is you're going to be looking at five years, where then you're going to not have to pay tax on 15%, I'm going off of memory. So you'll have to excuse me if I'm not spot on, but it's 15% then it jumps up. At 10 years, the entire $150,000 is no longer taxable. And I believe that you're not going to be paying tax on the gain in the opportunity zone, it's kind of a two pronged, are you familiar with that one, Jeff? Jeff: Somewhat, I know that you replaced the old enterprise some number of years back. Toby: Something to look at, but would be it. The last way to avoid tax is give them, before you exercise it, is give that to your non-profit, if you have one and you would get a $280,000 deduction. And then the nonprofit can sell it zero tax. You'd get a monster tax and you could have these too, you could say, "Hey, I really need to offset a bunch of the tax, so I'm going to make a contribution," it doesn't matter what your basis is, it only matters, the fair market value of those assets and if you transferred let's say $140,000, half of it, let's see transferred $140,000 worth of stock, you would get $140,000 tax deduction and it can offset your income up to 60%. In either case, if you're pretty confident that we can mitigate or eliminate that tax bill if you wanted to. If you keep it out of state, somebody says, if you keep it as state for 36 months, can it be avoided? I am helping a friend with crowdfunding project and due to medical needs, we'll need a large sum, maybe $100 million what would his tax consequences be if he has no deductions? Does he have to pay tax on donated money? Fred, generally speaking, if you're getting these little gifts, as long as they're less than $15,000 there's no tax and when I say $15,000 that's per donor. So if I do a crowdfunding and everybody gives $100, there's no tax to the recipient. So go ahead and raise them a bunch of money. Jeff: Keep in mind when you're doing this crowdfunding, if you're contributing to a crowd funding, it is a gift, it's not a donation. Toby: And it's not a tax deductible donation. In 2017, I sold a rental house and took a $40,000 note. In 2017, I received $944 in interest but have not issued a 1099-INT. I did report the amount on my personal 2017. What should my next step be? Wait until 2019 or file now. So he's the one who holds the note, he was paid interest. What do you have to say? Jeff: This is kind of a darn if you do and darn if you don't. There is a penalty for not issuing the 1099. You did the right thing by reporting the amount of interest. However, there's a penalty for not following the 1099. There's a penalty for filing them late. Toby: What's the penalty like? Jeff: I think it's $50 or $75. I think it's $50 up to $99. Toby: So what you're saying is do it next year? Jeff: I didn’t hear anything. Toby: Hey do it next year unless they start digging in. I've had that, we actually went through a super audit here once and they went through every—they let you fix it. So I just wouldn't do it. I would just do it next year and say, "Hey, oops." How to aggregate all properties. What are the disadvantages to doing. You file an aggregation election, is it a form or you just check in the box? Jeff: It's an election. It prints out a form with your tax return. It says exactly what properties or investments you're aggregating together. The only real disadvantage is. Once you aggregated these properties, let's say you have two houses and one has significant passive losses. When you become a real estate professional, those passive losses gets stuck in there. Normally they get freed up when you sell that property but once you aggregator properties, it's all considered one property. So it doesn't free up those if you have a large losses tied up, it doesn't free them up until you get rid of all your aggregated properties. Toby: Cool. Nicely put. Are the purchase and sale of mortgage notes considered real estate for real estate professional status I'm assuming. Jeff: This is my gut feeling, I would say no. it's more of a lending, more of an investment in the notes. Toby: Depends on whether you're ending up with the properties. It depends on what your intent is and if your intent is just to buy and sell mortgage notes, then you're dealing with lending. In order to be real estate, it's really got to be focused in on the purchase and sale of real estate. Jeff: So we kind of run into the same thing with construction companies and such that they meet the test for certain things but not for other test. There are some input to it so real estate broker is kind of the same thing. Toby: Here's the thing, so this is Dean. Dean, if I am in your shoes, I am documenting the time I'm spending in real estate. so even though I may be going after a note, if the reason that you're going after the note is with the intent that possibly end up with that property and you do the research and you can back it up, then you add it into the real estate column as far as your time and you aggregate all your time. The only time this is going to come up is if somebody audits you in goes through all of your records that thoroughly which is rare that that happens. But let's say that it does, then you're the one who's tracking all of your expenses and your time. Then it would be up to the IRS to sit there and say, "Hey, that was actually for the mortgage." and so the old adage is pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered. You don't take all of it but you aggregate that a little bit. Jeff: Can I bring up a pet peeve? I hear on the radio frequently about all these auditors that IRS has hired and they haven't had a real hiring since 2010. Toby: They're so toast right now. Jeff: The last big hiring they did most recently was to deal with Obamacare for that audit purposes. But really, they're dealing with almost a skeleton crew anymore. Toby: We just got proposed tax forms for 2018. We don't even know, we just had proposed regulations issued on the tax changes two weeks ago, three weeks ago. They're way behind the eight ball and sometimes we put ourselves in a disadvantage. Don't be crazy about it, but you can be pretty aggressive and especially if it's the truth. If what you're spending your time on is real estate, count it towards real estate. So if you're doing real estate investing part time, can you be considered a part time investor? Yeah, you'd be a part time investor but you wouldn't be a real estate professional. So the biggest important thing and this is for Darlene and Ken, is to document your time and if you go over 750 hours and it's more than you spend than anything else, then you're going to be a real estate professional. Otherwise, you're just an investor, unless you are buying properties to sell. So when you say investing, that means you're going to hold on to them, you're letting them depreciate a little bit but you get the cash flow. Does time spent lending money on real estate for real estate qualifiers and real estate professional. No investing, didn’t we just answer that one? It depends on your real intent of investing in the note. A lot of people are buying notes to end up with a real estate in which case then I'd say probably. Jeff: No, what if she's gap funding? Toby: If you're gap funding then I would say no, then you're lending. So you really have to take a look at the totality of the circumstances. I wish I could say yes or no. what we want is a yes and there's a way to get there. So it's making sure that you're documenting things to support your position. We could dig into that a little bit more, if you want to shoot us the email then let us dig into it. Then the next tax Tuesday, I can answer that one and Jeff can answer that one with a little bit of research behind it. Nexus question, "I'm a resident in California, I'm moving to Arizona. I plan to keep a single family rental in California. The California houses and the land trust is owned by Wyoming LLC, does California have the right to tax my pension income after I move in addition to my income in California rental." Shelly the answer is, it depends on where the rental was earned and whether you're taking out over a 10 year period then the answer is, no. and my guess is that you're going to be a big no. They will be able to tax technically the rental income that is being derived from California but for the most part, that's going to be zero. Jeff: A really important number to remember when you have a property in more than one state is 183. That's typically the number of days you need to spend in a state to be a resident in that state. Toby: "How do I get the 501(c)(3) tax exempt?" Marie, that’s the 1023 application. Yes, it's the 1023 application. So with a nonprofit, I always look at these things in threes, we file with the state which is a corporation. We document it to make sure there's no shareholders which is for private parties, and then we file with the feds and we're telling them we want to be an exempted organization and that exemption is done via 1023. So we go through that process. When we set them up, we set up about 3,000 of them successfully. "How do you create an LLC and an IRA?" Darlene and Ken, what you do is you have the IRA custodian internal contract with a company like us and we create the LLC, or we set up a 401K, roll the IRA into it and then we'd let you do it so you don't need a custodian. "Is this recorded and will a replay be sent out?" Robin, it's made available to anybody who's platinum and then I'm cutting out a bunch of the Q&As and will throw them all over the internet. The recording, yes we record them. Join platinum, it's fun. "If I sell a partial note to a family member from my QRP, is that disqualified?" it depends on the type of family members. When they're your kids, yes. If it's to a brother or sister, no. then you can do it. When you make a contribution and that's just the whole disqualified person argument we had earlier. So you can always ask again, ask the question specific to your situation, we'll give you a very specific answer. But just know that if you sell a partial note out of your QRP, it depends on the relationship of the family member. If it's lineal, you have a problem. Which means kids, parents, grandparents you have a problem. If it's horizontal, siblings, not a problem. If it's the spouses of the disqualified person, you're going to have a problem. "Investing in LLC for holding rental property, how does one avail to a 1031 exchange?" Here's how it works, so I'm not going to worry about this. The 1031 exchange, you have to have a 1031 exchange facilitator. The LLC has to buy the next property. So you sell one and buy one within 180 days and there's some other roles in there about when you identify it or you do a reverse exchange where you buy the replacement property then sell the other property within 180 days. But neither cases, in the name of the LLC, you don't have to do anything else. "I should be able to still qualify as an investor and still be active in real estate by investing more than 750 hours." yes, but in actually is a full time job. So if you have a full time job as a real estate professional, then you're good. But remember, your activity as a real estate investor has to exceed your activities of any other profit making activity. So if you work and you work 1,500 hours, even if you did 1400 hours as real estate, you are not a real estate professional, still below that 1,500. Investment in LLC for holding rental property, how does or somebody asked that. If you in invest funds to have an equity in a project, oh my god, this one's going to kill me, built by someone else, I'm trying to think what this is. So you're investing funds for a piece of an LLC in which you are passive and they are a builder, are you a dealer? So Judith, no, you are a passive investor in an active business, is what you are. I see what you're saying, what she's asking is, "Hey, I have Bob the builder come up to me and says, 'Hey, we're going to build this big apartment complex, we're going to develop and everything. You put in $100,000 everybody else puts on $100,000.'" You are passive. You are not considered the dealer. Here's a fun one, did you already read this one? Jeff: No, I haven’t read this one. Toby: Okay, I am planning to receive social security benefits at 62, and currently not employed. I do private lending to real estate investors through promissory notes. So I do receive interest income in the amount of $40,000 to $50,000. Will this affect my social security benefits? At what point to social security benefits are taxable? So Joe, the answer is that there are certain types of income that are exempt from calculations, social security, Jeff you know off the top of your head? Jeff: If you're receiving earned income and that's all social securities could ever know about, so we're talking about self employment income, W-2 wages, that's going to affect your social security benefits. Toby: But if you're just receiving interest income, is it going to affect it? Jeff: Well, here's the thing, if you're in the business of lending money, we would typically set you up as a business, either on schedule C or through an S-Corp or something. That interest you receive wouldn't be, interest income, it would be business income. You'd be able to deduct certain expenses from that income… Toby: We got to look at it, because usually you're going to want to be treated as active, in this particular case you're not going to outdo yourself. Jeff: The downside of this is, any money, any net income you have from this business of lending money is going to affect security until you're 65, or 67, full retirement age. Toby: Joe, the answer is, we may one isolated into its own taxable entity, so that it doesn't affect you. We may. Jeff: I kind of feel like this would be in a great place for an S-Corporation. It's not earning income flowing through to them. Toby: Would he have to take a salary? Jeff: Yeah there we go. Toby: I'm going to take a look. Joe, that's a great question, could you submit it to the webinars at Anderson Advisors, so we can research it. In that way we can hit it in two weeks, to get you a much more thoroughly research, because you're asking a very complicated question. That’s just not going to be at the top of our head. We're going to make sure that we don't step on a landmine. Jeff: So the answer's, maybe. Toby: My wife and I are the only shareholders and we both take a one third salary. No, you should take about one third of the net profit as salary, total between the owners. So greater than 2% shareholders or you and your spouse, so you could each take, I'll throw numbers out, let's say you made $100,000, you could each take up to $18,500. If you're under 50 and immediately dump it into a 401K and not pay any tax. So, "Hey we like that." We have a medical coding business, perfect, yeah, so that's when we want to take a look at. "This is so much fun, really appreciate it," I hope that's not sarcastic, Al. "I opened a couple of LLC, I'm going to use to purchase flipping, can I put them on hold until I do? Do I have to do tax returns?" It all depends on what you're doing with those, the answer is, yes you could put them on ice. "Thanks for the answer on UBIT." Diane, no problem. See we actually do answer questions here. "What are the legal benefits of incorporating in Puerto Rico, if any compared to Nevada?" If you live there, I think they give you 4% tax rate, but you actually have to reside there. There's legal benefits, not really any, other than the tax benefits and the fact of the matter is Puerto Rico has Spanish law, which means they could probably take your company from you. But you can still go down there and Jeff… Jeff: Well, I mean, there are certain industries that have great tax benefits pharmaceutical companies was always a big one. Some of those old laws have sunsetted but might be a good opportunity. Toby: Cool, look at all these questions. All right, some people are saying nice things, great. I like nice things better than, "You guys are jerks." In 2017, I was self employed under my LLC, I have not filed my taxes yet and not considering retirement. Would I still be able to do that? What is best options?" Casey, are you under—self employment under my LLC. So it depends on whether—it was an S-Corp. Did you file an extension because you would be able to do a retirement plan either a sub-IRA or if you already had the 401K then you can make a contribution from the company for it. It would either be a 401A or a 401K. or sub-IRA, I think those are going to be your... Jeff: And if you do extension, you have 11 days to get it done. Toby: Yeah, you have 11 days. Casey, get off your butt. All right, Brian wants advice with the start up pre revenue, he is offering 10% stock, "Not sure I want ownership that subject to capital calls, expectation, potential—is it better to take an offshore [inaudible 01:06:53] until there's more value in the company?" It really depends, so Clark, nice to see you. Awesome. I know Clark's brother very well, studs, nice family. All right, friends, if I was going to have a piece, the whole thing is, if I'm putting money into an endeavor, it's going to be, "What am I going to get out?" It would really depend on the agreement, I don't want to be subject to having to put more money in, nor do I want my interest necessarily being diluted by somebody who is. So one of the one of the ways you can do it, is sometimes do it is a convertible note where you loan the money, so you know you can at least get it back, but it's convertible into equity at the fair market value at that time. You guys can actually agreed to this ahead of time. So that if you decide you want to contribute it, you see they're doing what you want but then you convert it into equity. Otherwise it just remains a note that they pay you on. Clark, that's probably the route I would go. Jeff: But the assumption here is, this is a C-Corporation he's talking about. Toby: I don't even care… Jeff: Well if it's an S-Corporation that we wouldn’t be able to have all these secondary notes and stuff. Toby: If it's an S, I could so convert it. Jeff: Could you? Toby: Yep. Jeff: As long as it converts into the same… Toby: Yep. The risk is I don't want to have a convertible debt to anything other than an individual that would qualify for S.. Jeff: Okay. Toby: But I don't see S-Corps raising money this way. It's almost always C-Corps with partnerships. So the ones that I've been personally involved in, we did three levels of financing this exact way with Vegas Tax fund. That's the little Tony Hseih group and they dumped a bunch of money to a company called Role Tech. You can look them up online, because we exited that wanted with the sale to Brunswick. In a way they did all their money was purely—that was a C-Corp, but it was purely through convertible notes. All right, "What are the best tools you can recommend for tracking time mileage and expenses for real estate investors? My desire to be paperless and get everything out…" People use Taxbot for mileage, it's mileage IQ, MileIQ, I think it's the one that I use, but if you're tracking time, it's just using—sometimes is just using your calendar or spreadsheet. Let's see, "Is full time realtor, a real estate professional?" Chances are, you're going to aggregate and all that. "I understand and agree." I'm not sure I understand that. "I executed a 1031 exchange where trust all the owned property, sold it, and took title of the up leg property in the trust using 1031 exchange. But now I want to transfer up leg property into an LLC." Diane, there is no time restriction that you have to hold it as long as you are the one and still the end beneficiary. If you extend loan through an LLC owned by Roth IRA, they want to transfer, sell the remainder, but then season it out to a lower interest rate. Can Roth continue to receive the full payment from the borrower and the relay the portion?" Yes, as lines is non-convertible, same as you do in an S-Corp. "Is the answer the same best self administer S 401K? So what they're asking is," If you extend a loan through—we're just going to call it the Roth IRA, because the LLC looks right into it from a tax standpoint. And then you sell the remainder of that then season notes. So you start collecting and then you sell the note because it's doing really well and you say, "Hey does anybody want to pay me for this?" I know a guy that that's what he does. He puts the notes together and he sells his notes out and so he can get the money to go to another one and he aggregates them altogether, they call it flying in flocks. The lenders flock together and together they do a loan and he sells his portion. Yeah, you could sell it and then you can continue to receive it and keep a portion of it. the only issue you have is if it's a convertible note then you wouldn’t want to do a convertible note because boom, that Roth IRA depending on the type of entity if it's an S-Corp you'd kill the S-Corp's status of it. How do you put an LLC on hold? You get quite literally do nothing with it or you just pay the state and then you file a non activity return. You say it's not doing anything. So you're allowed to do that or you just do nothing. Which is what I tend to do. It just depends on your state. If there's not much penalty then I just kind of sit it and then two years later I might reactivate it. Will real estate holding LLC taxes partnership qualify for the 20% passed through deduction? Yes, it will. Here's the deal, as long as it's not triple net property. What she's asking is, "Hey, I have a whole bunch of LLCs and they all receive rental income and there's a net income amount." let's say it comes through with $50,000 there's something called a 199A deduction that was enacted by the 2017 tax cut and jobs act. And it gives you a 20% deduction off that amount or 20% of your taxable income whichever one is less/ but if you earn over a certain amount so for individuals it's over, $100,575 if it's a married couple it's $315,000 which is going to make your head hurt I'm going to suffer memory here. Then you scale up and then you have a new test it's 50% of the W2 income that's being paid on that particular busine

That Blind Tech Show Rolls Again. Bryan brings Allison and Jeff back to the sho to talk about some of the latest Tech news, gidgets and gadgets and the latest from Sonos. We are proud to announce that Twitterrific for the Mac is Back, Downcast just got an update and AOL Messenger is no longer. Jeff gives us an update on the fire that hit Enchanted Hills Camp above Napa, CA and how we can all contribute and support #RebuildEHC. Be sure to check the links below to learn more about what the heck we were talking about. :) Check out the Twitterrific Blog and Subscribe to keep up with the latest from iConFactory Google Bought Apple or Did they! Twitterrfic for Mac is here How to get apps back in iTunes 10 Safari Long Press Shortcut Gestures. Do you remember to ever long press? Read more about Enchanted hills Camp #RebuildEHCand contribute what you can and lend your support. Give by phone: Call Jennifer Sachs at 415-694-7333   See Transcription below.   Thank you for listening. Send us Feedback via email Follow us on Twitter @BlindTechShow   That Blind Tech Show is produced in part by Blind Abilities Network.   You can follow us on Twitter @BlindAbilities On the web at www.BlindAbilities.com Send us an email Get the Free Blind Abilities App on the App Store. Transcription: That Blind Tech Show: Twifferrific on the Mac and Downcast is Back andSonos Gets 1 Bigger. (Transcription provided) [Music] Alison: Sonos One's which are the newest iteration of the play one, are the ones that have Lady A built-in. [Music] Alison: I did put the Eyes Free Fitness app on my phone and I'm hoping that you know buying some of the workouts for that, I will literally have no excuse not to, not to do it because my phone is always with me no matter where I go. Bryan: Somebody in New Zealand had something about unboxing one very early before the rest of the world which..... Alison: Oh yes Jonathan was very very happy that you know when he get, when these items come out he gets them a day ahead everyone else because New Zealand is a day ahead. Bryan: He should let people know that. [Laughter] Alison: He really doesn't gloat about that enough, but yeah. Jeff: So Alison you use your phone on a daily basis. [Laughter] Alison: The face ID, I'm still, I find myself still kind of getting used to this new thing called face ID. Jeff: I want to see the Grinch again this year. Bryan: So you want me to come visit? [Laughter] Big smiles okay, three, two one, welcome back to yet another episode of that blind tech show. I know it's been a very long time since we've been here in fact you've probably heard a lot of us on other great technology podcasts. I know our friend Allison Hartley recorded one of her regular tech doctor podcasts as well as she was on with the great people over at main menu. And you may have heard Jeff Thompson on with AT Banter and I believe he's got another podcast coming out with the good folks over at Mystic Access and you may have heard me on Blind Bargains but we finally got the band back together again and we're here to talk you through some of the holidays and the goings on now, so I'm going to go ahead and say yeah how you doing over there Allison. Alison: I'm doing okay, it's the day three of a four-day weekend so I'm just kind of milking the the time off work for all it's worth, I've been reading good books that I'll talk about later and eating lots of food, lots of pie, so much pie. Bryan: There's never such a thing as too much pie. Alison: No never. Bryan: What about you Jeff, how has your Thanksgiving holiday been? Jeff: Well pie is a continuum. Alison: Yep. Jeff: It's been great here, I've been bacheloring it, the family's been gone, and I'm living it here with the dogs, happy Thanksgiving, it's Thanksgiving everyday now. Bryan: I'm actually down in Florida still recording you see, we're all about bringing you the show. Holidays don't stop us. One thing I was very excited though on the plane ride down here, I was very excited some of you might have heard about therapy pigs getting kicked off planes. [Pig noises] I'm happy to report there was no therapy pig on my plane down here, just get old Nash in me. How about you Allison, have you ever been on a plane with a therapy Pig? Alison: I have never been on the plane with anything more exciting than another guide dog, I have to say. Bryan: What about you Jeff have you ever traveled with any pigs? Jeff: No but it, it would wouldn't be that bad if it was therapy bacon. Alison: Oh yeah. Bryan: That is true, that is true and for those of you not hear about that story it's actually not the first time a therapy pig has gotten kicked off a plane so, go ahead and check that out, it was one of the more humorous stories and, you know, it's great that they stand up for our rights as guide dog service dog users, but seriously, therapy pigs. [Pig noises] Now Allison, I think you're probably the only disappointed one because I'm hearing the Soup Nazi said no soup for you, no home pod for you this year? Alison: Yeah I mean I have really no reason to be disappointed. I have speakers coming out of my ears. [Spring noise and laughter] Alison: Quite literally right now cuz I'm wearing headphones but, I am, I am still interested in getting the home pod when it comes out, home pods I should say, cuz I want to get a stereo pair. I have my Lady A controlled Sonos speakers now, and I'm finding that that is honestly filling a lot of my needs in terms of playing satellite radio and playing any song that I could possibly think of. I do still want to get the home pods because I hear that the sound quality is gonna be even that much better than the Sonos speakers, but I'm not, I'm not tearing my hair out, if these new Sonos hadn't come out I might have been a bit more disappointed, but I'm okay. Jeff: Now you said they're gonna be better sounding than the Sonos? Alison: They are, they're going to have more tweeters and better far-field microphones for understanding you, the only limitation in my opinion it's gonna be Siri, I know this is a controversial subject on an Apple themed podcast but, Siri is terrible. Bryan: You will get no argument out of me, Siri and I, we're not even dating anymore, the relationship is over and.... Unfortunately this is not surprising news, Apple you know when they used to meet their deadlines, we talked about it this summer, it was a little odd that Apple was talking about this, it almost reminds me of you know back 10 years ago when they used to say there's an attack coming, it's not coming today, it's not coming tomorrow, but it's coming, and I kind of feel that's the same thing with (inaudible) Alison: Yeah. Bryan: Apple pod, they're not gonna be out today, they're not gonna be out tomorrow, but they will be out, probably around the same time that the Amazon app comes to the Apple TV. Alison: I would, I would say you're probably right there, and I would say that when they do come out they're gonna be a couple of years behind all of the other smart speakers with better AI. It's really, it's kind of gonna be sad almost. I really I want to see Apple push forward in this arena, but unfortunately you know, I, I've played now with Google assistant, I've had a Lady A in my life, I have been playing even with Bixby on a, on a Samsung phone, and yes you give something up in terms of your data, and in terms of your privacy, but when you're putting security above all, the AI, and the assistance itself becomes very limited in what it can do, and it's really starting to show in Siri when there are so many more worthy competitors. Bryan: Yeah, the Apple really missed the boat on the the home assistant and you know, Tim Cook was wishy-washy on it for several years and now it's just gonna be a speaker, I really have no interest, I mean I'm very happy with my Echo devices, heck, I got a small apartment you know, I've got one in the living room. They're $30.00 now over you know, the weekend... Alison: God Yeah. Bryan: I just don't have, I'm like, well do I really need another one, and I'm like, I've got one in the living room, one in the bedroom, and I don't spend much time in the kitchen so you know it's, there's no point really in getting another one but I, you just can't say no at that price and, how was the Google assistant, did you like it? Alison: I do, I actually I have a Google home speaker that I don't have plugged in at this point but on the Galaxy I mean it's just, you can just ask random questions and instead of saying, let me check the web for that, here's what I found, it actually just gives you the answer to your flipping question. Bryan: Yeah. Alison: It's really amazing and then you can ask like follow-up questions and it jives with what you were talking about and it answers intelligently. I just, you know maybe the home pod speakers will come out and something about Siri will blow us out of the water or something out of the speakers, about the speakers will blow everything else out of the water because they've had a little bit more time, but I'm starting to get a little impatient with Apple's obsession with, I know they want to get it right, and I know they want to have a really polished user experience, but that user experience is starting to suffer because of that need to be so meticulous, and so perfect. Jeff: Well I think they've actually, having it come out next year might be a good plan for their stocks in a way because people are buying the eight, or the ten, those are big items, and you're talking about $349.00 here. It's hard to comBryan when everybody else is you know flooding the market with these $29.00 minis, and dots, and Amazon, what do they have seven different items now in this department? The Look, the Show, the Tap. Alison: Now Google has three, I mean, it's a lot. Bryan: And, I'm hearing about headphones, Bose, I think there is a set of Bose headphones which you know, I couldn't afford those, but that have the Google Home built into them so we're starting to see more and more even headphones with these kind of assistants built into them and, I think Apple, you know, they've just been left behind and, not every company needs a home assistant so, I really don't see what the marketplace unless you are a big music listener, you know, or have capitol to spend, I really don't see the point to it, I guess I don't have a fine ear for music because I think the Echo speaker sounds fantastic and everybody I know that's into music says, "Are you kidding?" Alison: Oh no, oh God, no no no no no. Especially the Dot. The Dot is barely passable for spoken word, but even the big Echo, drives me crazy because it tries to simulate fake stereo, but it doesn't quite get it right on the one speaker so, it's, it drives me nuts. Bryan: What's the opposite of perfect pitch? Because that's what I have. [Laughter] Jeff: Either you have it, or you don't. Alison: Yeah. [Laughter] Jeff: So with the Sonos, you have two of them, that's the Sonos one you have two of them. Alison: Yep. Jeff: That does perfect stereo? Alison: It does, yeah I have them equal distant from each other on a table, and the stereo separation is amazing, it's really beautiful. Jeff: Oh that's great. Bryan: Are there multiple different kinds of Sonos? I've just heard phenomenal things about Sonos speakers, or is there one product line or are there different kind of product lines for the Sonos speakers. Alison: There are in the non smart, non Lady A connected Sonos products, there are three, well four technically different tiers of Sonos products, and it all depends on the number of tweeters that are in each speaker, and with all of them you can pair to get a stereo pair with the Play Ones, Play Threes, and Play Fives, but they become very expensive, and they have a sound bar, and they have a subwoofer for the television, but you couldn't pair Lady A with a skill now, to make all of your Sonos products somewhat controllable via Lady A, but the Sonos One's which are the newest iteration of the Play One, they look exactly the same except they have microphones, are the ones that have Lady A built-in. Bryan: Yeah well everything, everything seems to be getting smarter except Apple News, which you know, I often go through Apple news and my subscriptions when I'm putting this show together and, lately I've been noticing there's about two articles and then everything goes back six weeks, and they just don't seem to be coming out with a lot of content and as Jeff and I were talking about, a lot of ads you'll see an article, title of an article, title of an article, then an advertisement, and then a bunch of text, this is something about Apple and an ad and everything. Jeff have you been using Apple News, and have you noticed how down hill it seems to have gone? Jeff: I've noticed it's changing a little bit at first, the ads you can't even read the ads because that, all it does is give you description of it, and you have to skip over it, so they're not trying to sell to the blind. The thing that I noticed about Apple News is Apple shuts down at about four o'clock on Friday, there's no new news, they just kind of rehash the same stuff until Monday, and it's just like looking for an app update. If I get one on on Saturday/Sunday, someone paid extra to have that pushed out. Bryan: Yeah maybe I should go back to Newsify and actually reading my RSS feed for technology news. I'm not seeing that much content coming through there, I was I was really excited when Apple news came out because I thought it was gonna be great and I enjoyed it at first, I was using it all the time, but now I'm seeing less and less content and a lot of that content, there's nothing worse than when you're reading an article and like a paragraph into the article, all of a sudden advertisement is starts being read to you... Alison: Yep. Bryan: It drives me absolutely bonkers, and Jeff you actually said, and I'm curious because I read a lot of television recaps in Safari, where I'll say, Arrow episode, season six episode three recap, and it will, I'll find an article that will describe the action and a lot of times these articles, a paragraph in it starts reading an ad to me, you just got a pop-up blocker, now do you think those pop-ups might block those in article advertisements, or just really block pop-ups. Jeff: Actually it's not a pop-up blocker, that is native to the Safari app where you can turn that on or off and it blocks pop-ups. Now some colleges, if you're a college student, they use pop-up so you might want to beware that you might be shutting off something and not being able to gain access to so, try it out. What I got was Purify and that's P U R I F Y, it's a content blocker, and when you get that you, you purchase it, and I got it for a dollar ninety nine, I don't know if that was a Black Friday deal or a special over the holidays but, a dollar ninety-nine, it's very popular app according to Nick, my buddy up in Canada, and what it does is it works on your browser. So what you do is you purchase it and then you have to go into your Safari app settings, go down and just below pop-up blocker, you're gonna find content blocker, and then you have to enable it by turning it on. Bryan: Allison, have you ever used any kind of pop-up or ad blockers or anything? Alison: I do also use Purify and I find that that eliminates a lot of the ads on the websites that I use. What I love now also is reader mode for specific websites in iOS11, if you activate reader now, it's an actionable item and you can go to Auto reader and you can tell it that I either want reader to be active on this website all the time or, all the time for everything, so I have some very specific websites for which I just have reader all the time and I never have to worry about any extra crap on the webpage. Bryan: Where is that setting where you could set it specifically for an individual website? Alison: When you actually turn on reader and you've got reader selected, then there's an actions available, it might even be available for you to select it, and one of the actions is automatic reader when you flick down. You double tap that and then it comes up with a message that says do you want to enable reader for all websites or just on this domain and, you could turn it on for just on this website, and so like 9 to 5 Mac for example and a couple of other more the, more of the busy Apple news sites, I have since I do so much Twitter reading on my phone, I've got automatic reader turned on and it's changed everything. Bryan: Yeah that's something I'll have to, you know I I use the reader all the time, but I, and I remember hearing about, that you know, you hear, about so many new settings but I've never played around with it so, that's something I'm really gonna have to make use of, and by the way if you're out there and if you know of any specific ad popup blocker that might work in individual apps, let us know, you could tweet us in at BlindTechShow or shoot us in an email at thatblindtechshow@ gmail.com, let us know about that. This next thing is really interesting because I was down here listening, I have an app where I'm able to get any NFL audio feeds and everything, and the one thing that drives me bonkers because my dad's a little older so sometimes he forgets is I'm watching the Washington Redskins game here on Thanksgiving with him and I'm listening to the Redskins radio, the only problem is streaming audio is a good minute and a half to two minutes behind real time, and he keeps commenting about what's on TV and it's just driving me insane, I'm like Dad, remember it hasn't happened again you know, so, one thing that would be nice is if FM radio actually just worked on your iPhone which supposedly it could according to this article, we'll put in the show notes that it's built into the phone but Apple just will not activate it. Have you guys been following this story? I know it's been in the news a lot lately. Alison: I've heard two things about this, I've heard that Apple for whatever reason has just decided not to activate it but then I've also heard that the newer modems actually don't have the FM radio so it's a moot point. Bryan: Mmm okay, what about you Jeff if you've been following along to this? Jeff: Yeah I have but, you know it's to me it's like, is it, is it, am I dying for it, I don't know, I really don't know. Bryan: I think it'd be nice, just, you know to be in real time. I don't understand why they can't get streaming audio to be at least maybe you know a second or two behind. I mean it's just such a significance difference, I've got it put on do not disturb, otherwise I'll get notifications about a score in a game, you know, before it happened. The fascinating thing is during the, the Yankees playoff run, I went to my local bar with a pair of my head with the headphones with FM radio, and sure enough FM radio would get it like 30 seconds before television would. [Laughter] Alison: So there's no perfect solution. Bryan: No, there's not, I'd be like, I'd yell out "damn it" and people were like "What are you talking about, they've yet to throw the pitch". [Laughter] So yeah, there's there's no perfect solution. Jeff: I like tuneIn radio, I like stuff like that. Alison: Yeah. Jeff: If there's an emergency or something we got those alarms that go off and everything. I don't see myself turning it on, I don't know, it's just, it so interesting, there's so many resources, so many different avenues that I can get information that, just one more to be on the phone and then, where's my antenna. Alison: Yeah. Jeff: You know it's, now that we're Bluetooth everything so, do we have to wrap it in tinfoil? I don't know. Bryan: You just hold it up in the air while you're walking down the street like an umbrella. [Laughter] Am I getting a signal now? Damn it, the signal is better over here. You know it's funny because the one thing my headphones don't get is AM radio. Jeff: I think it's just as important to think about this. Now do we really want that on there because everyone was so excited when like your Amazon device could make phone calls. As soon as you make that phone call you're standing there for about two minutes going I can't walk away. Alison: Yeah, yeah. Jeff: It's not fun. Bryan: No no no, like I've said for a very long time, the worst app on the iPhone is the phone, and it's also my least used app. I wonder if I could take it out of the dock and put it on like page nine. [Laughter] Alison: You could yeah. Bryan: Yeah, you know it's funny yeah I've been down here in Florida like I said for a week and everything, so I've been in a lot of automobiles which in New York City you know I'm not in cars a lot, and I've noticed my phone still thinks I'm driving sometimes. Alison: My phone thinks I'm driving when I'm not even in a car, like I'll be laying in bed and all of a sudden that do not disturb while driving thing will pop up and I'll be like I'm just reading a book, can you go away? [Laughter] Bryan: But do you have a waterbed so maybe you're moving. [Laughter] Jeff: Too much coffee. Alison: Unfortunately no waterbed, but it's crazy I wish, I have it set on activate manually, so it should not be popping up at all, but it's driving me nuts. Bryan: Real quick for a millennial crowd, water beds were beds with water in them in the 1980s. [Laughter] Look them up. Jeff: California has regulations on waterbeds. Alison: Yeah. [Laughter] Right. Jeff: The other thing is someone told me about the notifications you know that, while you're in a car if you turn it to what is that the Bluetooth setting in your car mode, that that's supposed to trigger it, I don't know sometimes that some things are on, some things are off, I don't know. Bryan: Yeah, and I've got mine set the manual where I'm supposed to be able to turn it on, I have read in a lot of places and I think we may all be running different versions of betas, or some people may be having this problem, others may not and supposedly some people claim it's fixed in a certain beta. I don't even know if I'm running that beta, I think I'm one update behind, you know there's been so many betas out that I can't keep up with them, and a lot of updates coming out too, I notice all the time I seem to have like 80 to 90 updates every few days cuz, I self update, what about you? I know you guys self-medicate, do you self update? Alison: Well I'm constantly working on self improvement, self updating, oh oh you mean apps, yeah. [Laughter] Bryan: The apps, I like to make sure tha,t I like to read those little release notes, and the worst is we update our app fairly regularly, we're not going to tell you what we're doing. Alison: Nope. Jeff: If you get a self-improvement app, would that be self defeating? [Laughter] Bryan: I don't know, you know what, email us and let us know what you think. You know a lot of people are big fans of the Star Wars saga, but have you guys been following the blindfold game saga. Alison: It's been it's been rather epic. Bryan: It has, there's been multiple parts you know. We had, we even had my favorite was Blindfold game Strikes Back you know. Alison: And they did to their credit. Bryan: They did, they struck back hard. I'm a, you know I am a big fan of the games. Blindfold Uno, I've bought plenty of them, I know some people don't like them, I think Marty does a phenomenal job and, God I love the trivia games, and there's nothing like when you've got a, you're sitting in the store you got a few minutes to kill. I've actually set my Blindfold Uno to unlimited scoring so I've got like thirty thousand points in there, it just keeps... [Laughter] Every time the computer gets within ten thousand points of me I think it's cheating you know, but, he really does a great job with a lot of those games. Marty is a businessman and he makes these games you know, out of his love of making games for the community as well as to make money and... Alison: Sure why not. Bryan: I couldn't believe what, when Apple was telling him he needed to roll them into tab less apps in the App Store. It really seemed like Apple didn't know what they were talking about I, you know you could Google Marty's website, I'm not sure the exact site but blindfoldgames.com probably, or just google it, and he's got a blog that'll explain everything that happened if you're not aware of it but, I was really shocked at the stance Apple took against him starting out. Alison: I can summarize briefly if you'd like. Bryan: Sure. Alison: I've been fairly involved in reading about it. So essentially what happened was, and there's a whole detailed timeline on the website. Bryan: Start with episode 1. Alison: In episode one Apple was going through the review process for some iOS11 related updates for Marty's games and they noticed that a lot of the games used the same template. Now Apple technically has a rule that apps cannot be clones of one another, and not looking at the content of the games which are all different decided that these games are too similar and so we're going to have to reject these updates because they have the templates are too similar and you have to make the the gameplay different. Well the whole beauty of the blindfold games is once you know how to play one, you can pretty much figure out you know, several more, so Marty defended himself and said look while these templates are all very similar, the content within them is very different, but Apple didn't want to hear it, they heard, they're like 80 apps is too much. You have to compile them into less. Bryan: A handful, yeah. Alison: Amounts of apps. So Marty's stance, with which I agree, is that then that would make the apps too large to download because they all contain different voice files, and sound effects, so they're already you know pretty sizable downloads anyway, and it would hurt discoverability. For example if all the card games were in one app, somebody might only play one or two, and that might hurt his chances at making more revenue, and the man has got to be able to make some sort of money off it. Bryan: Sure. Alison: I get it. So eventually it came down to a lot of members of the community myself included, advocating with Apple to make them understand that this is a different type of situation than just the average you know, Yahoo up there trying to clone a bunch of flappy bird apps for example. And it worked, they understood, they eventually understood and had a conversation with Marty about, hey we understand that these games are different and now it's it's okay, when the review was passed and Marty at one point he was going to be taking down the games because he just didn't have the resources, either financial, or time wise to do the rewrites that Apple was starting with, so I'm really glad that this ended up, ending happily, and I got into some, some real Twitter spats with a couple of people who really think that, that oh, it's just blind people whining. No, it's, it's people advocating for games, which are truly different in the App Store, and yes blindness does have a little bit to do with it because we have a shortage of accessible games as it is, so don't take our choices away. Bryan: Would you summarize saying basically that Marty basically after the the Clone Wars beat the Empire? Alison: He did. Bryan: Yes. Yes. [Laughter] A Star Wars theme, yeah, no, not to make light of it, it was great that Apple reversed it's course and, Jeff, any comments? Where you following along on the Blindfold saga? Jeff: I was more or less following Allison on Twitter, I'm stalking again Allison. Alison: Oh no. Jeff: But Jonathon Mosan wrote a letter, other people in the community got going on, it was nice to see everybody come together for that you know, like some people were pretty negative, they were saying like "oh yeah, they come together this, but not for jobs" Alison: Some people were jerk faces about it, and I will call them out for that. Jeff: Other people were saying like "Oh Apple, they played the blind card to Apple" it's not that, it's like Allison just explained, it's more like that. It is kind of neat to sit back and watch how different people rise up to certain things and other people take sides, you know the bottom line is the guy is doing something. he has to make money. If he bundles them all up, and you only like one of them, you're not going to buy 8 you know, it makes sense, business sense for him, and I'm glad Apple saw it that way. Bryan: I think he's got a great price plan, because you know, yes, he's got a ton of games you know, nobody buy them all. You could test them out, you know he gives you a free amount of games with each one which I think is fantastic. How many mainstream games out there allow you to test it out before buying it? Alison: It's true. Bryan: So basically what we are saying Marty, "Stay Strong!" Jeff: And may the Force be with you. Bryan: You know something that just came to the app store new and I, I've gotta actually take a look at this, because I haven't exercised since last millennium, The Eyes Free Fit, you know Blind Alive some of you may know it as, I looked up Blind Alive, i couldn't find anything related to exercising. But if you look it up under Eyes Free Fitness, and this just came to the app store last week, and I looked through it, you gotta buy the programs, but it looks like they got a ton of different exercises in there, and I know they've been around for quite a while and on a lot of podcasts. Have either of you guys ever done any of their exercise programs? Alison: A long time ago I bought Cardio Level 1, and it is really great, and really descriptive. I did it a couple of times, I'm really bad with sticking with exercise routines no matter how accessable they are. So, it's really a motivation issue, its not an issue with the workouts themselves, but now I did put the Eyes Free Fitness app on my phone and I am hoping that, you know buying some of the workouts through that, i will literally have no excuse not to do it because my phone is always with me no matter where I go. Bryan: Yeah. How about yourself Jeff? You're an outdoor mountain man, have you ever indoor exercised? Jeff: I was actually testing her website with her so I got to get a few of those and she was next to me in the booth at ACB in 2016. It was in Minneapolis, it was really fun, it's really great that she's taken it to this level now that, you can even hook it up to your health app inside your phone too so.... Bryan: Wait a minute, there's a health app in the phone? [Laughter] Jeff: Page 9 Brian, Page 9. Alison: Page 11 yeah. [Laughter] Bryan: It's next to all of my pizza services. [Laughter] Jeff: So I suggest if people want it, it's Eyes Free Fitness, it's well described, that's the whole intent of it. She uses people who are professionally trained to come up with these exercise routines, but then there's also some stretching ones, and all that stuff. So it's pretty versatile, and they got some Yoga stuff in there, and then there's.... Alison: Pilates. Jeff: Yeah, lots of good stuff in there. Bryan: Yeah, yeah, my only complaint about this app and what she does, is she makes the rest of us look lazy. [Laughter] Can I set a New Years resolution in November, where that's my plan is to, exercise and, you know, a lot of people say they want to get in better shape. I would just like to get into a shape so.... [Funny sound effect and laughter] Alison: See it's a good time for me to get back into this because now I'm walking everyday with Gary with our neighborhood in Napa being so walkable that I actually am in a little bit better shape, so I feel like these exercises would be really great, you know especially if on the weekends when we walk less, it would really help me to get in even better shape. I'm still a far cry off from where I want to be and I still eat to much, but that'll never change. [Laughter] Bryan: I don't even eat that much, I just eat all of the wrong things, I've learned if I like it, it's bad for you. Alison: Yeah, that's kinda where I'm at too, I don't find that I eat these ginormous portions, I mean although I do like a healthy portion of food, but yeah, it's not the good things. It's a little light on the leafy green vegetables and such, although I like fruit. Jeff: You know one of the main things about exercise and all this stuff that we're talking about is the mindset and it takes a while to get your mind wrapped around it. I've been using a trainer for, it'll be coming up on a year and I finally got my mind wrapped around it after 10 months. I mean, it really takes something, I used to be in really good shape, I used to do a lot of stuff, I used to run and all sorts of stuff. But I am not being chased anymore so... you know. Bryan: It's may favorite line, "Do you still run?" "Only when chased" [Laughter] Jeff: Yeah, I think people who want to get back into it sometimes it takes a little commitment. You can buy these from $19.00 to $25.00 or something like that, but you have it, you can do it in the privacy of your own home, it's accessible, and it describes all of the stances, all the positions, well described steps, so if that's what it takes to get your mindset involved in it, it might be a good start for you. Alison: Yeah. Yeah can get as of out of breath or sweaty as you want, as quickly as, however quickly it takes and it doesn't matter because it's just you and yeah. Jeff: But make sure you have your phone notifications for driving set right. [Laughter] Bryan: Either that or in my kind of condition make sure you have 911 on speed dial. [Laughter] I got a good work out there, you know we're recording this the day after Black Friday, it's not even Cyber Monday yet but you'll hear this after Cyber Monday, and it was a low tech Black Friday for me because I got some clothes and everything, no technology but I wanted to ask you guys, what about yourself Allison was it a techie Black Friday Cyber Monday for you or no? Alison: No cuz I, I bought what I want throughout the year, I don't, I don't have the the impulse control to wait three months for something to go on sale on Black Friday, I just buy it when I, when I have the money and what I want it / need it. So Black Friday / Cyber Monday are always kind of a bit of a letdown for me cuz I'm like, oh this thing's on sale, oh wait, I already have it, this thing's on sale, wait I already have it. ]Laughter] Bryan: Got it got it got it got it got it need it you know. Alison: Yeah. Jeff: I just went shopping at Allison's place, I just walk to her house. [Laughter] I'll take that, that, that. [Laughter] Ain't got it, ain't got it, ain't got it. Bryan: You know it's not a big tech year for me because I'm not upgrading, I do need to get a new key chain cuz I have one of those key chains with the Lightning charger and for some reason the Lightning charger broke off of the key chain so, one of the things I heard somebody talking about was you know I've got all these kind of what I call lipstick chargers where you have to plug the cord into the charger. I heard they now got a charger out there that has the lightning charger built into it as well as a USB built into it and I think I'm gonna probably get something like that. Alison: Send me that when you find it. Because, send me the link, yeah because that is something, you know, I love my anchor batteries. I have the ones that are like even 20 thousand milliamps witch are a little bit bigger but I just put them in my purse, but yeah you've got to have the little the cables for your Apple watch and for your micro USB devices and your, your lightning cables all together and it's just it's a little bit much, it gets to be a little bit much to carry around. Jeff: Jack really makes a couple of these. One is a six thousand, one is a ten thousand fifty claiming that X needs more power so they made that one. They do have two cords, one is the Lightning port cord and the other is for all the Android stuff, your mini USB plug, and there's a third you can plug a USB into it so you technically you can actually have three by both outputs going at one time. My concern since their dedicated cables on there, are you committed to that if, what if the cable goes bad you know, I, I don't know but it does get a 4.5 out of 5 ratings on Amazon. Myself I like the big ones. Alison: Oh yes send me that one. Jeff: Cuz size does matter. Alison: It does. [Laughter] Bryan: Hey hey, this is a PG podcast. [Laughter] Alison: What, we're talking about, we're talking about batteries. Bryan: Oh. Jeff: I must admit I like big batteries. Bryan: I've heard that about you. Now Allison you've had the iPhone for a while now what are your thoughts? Alison: I basically really like it, it's nice and fast, I like the size, I have it in a leather case because it's glass on both sides and I do not trust myself with glass on both sides and I have dropped it and the leather case has saved me a couple of times. The face ID I'm still, I find myself still kind of getting used to this new thing called face ID. I find that it's very accurate. I find that even when it doesn't get your face it learns from the experience and it has been consistently doing better but it's not as fast as touch ID, the gestures for bringing up home and app switcher are pretty fluid and elegant I think. Bryan: Are you used to doing those after having the press on the home button for so long or does it take a little training yourself? Alison: I'm used to it now, I've had the thing now for a couple of weeks so I've gotten it back into my, into my muscle memory now that this is just what you have to do because there's no home button and luckily I'm not using any other older devices to confuse me, that's convenient but yeah it's it's never going to be as fast I don't think. Jeff: So Alison you use your phone on a daily basis? [Laughter] Alison: Pretty much almost every minute of every day. Bryan: Are you happy with the purchase, are you happy with the upgrade? Alison: I am because I wanted, I wanted the latest and greatest technology and now I've got it and I realized that sometimes that comes with some caveats so I am happy with it, there are some times though when I have just become resigned to entering in my passcode. For example if I'm laying in bed and I want to unlock my phone, I don't want to have to sit up put the phone all the way in front of my face, get face ID to authenticate me, wake up the husband, wake up the dog, so I just enter in the passcode and it's that's even become a little bit faster. Bryan: My dad was having trouble with his phone recently and I finally found out what the problem was. Alison: Yeah. Bryan: He's running an iPhone 4. [Laughter] Alison: Oh for goodness sakes. Bryan: Yeah, I said.... Jeff: Wait, you, you said it's running. Bryan: Yeah, barely, yeah he can make phone calls that's about it, I said no wonder you're having so many issues with everything else and yeah, he's getting ready to get a new one because my mom did order the iPhone 10 and he's gonna get the hand-me-down. I guess he's gonna move up to a 6 which is all he really needs. Alison: Yeah. Oh that'll be quite an upgrade for him. Bryan: Oh yeah, yeah, so but, my mom's got the 10 coming, she's got the, she ordered it online and has the two to three week wait so, I will not, not get to play around with it while I'm down here and everything but I've been you know listening to you on with Dr. Robert Carter not to be confused with Dr. Richard Kimble. Not that anybody but me. Alison: Not to be confused with John Kimble yeah. [Laughter] Bryan: I thought of Richard Kimble immediately but I'm probably the only one that did that so but you know you guys had a great walkthrough of the iPhone 10 and somebody in New Zealand had something about unboxing one very early before the rest of the world which... Alison: Oh yes Jonathan was very very happy that you know, when these items come out he gets them a day ahead of everyone else because New Zealand is a day ahead. Jeff: He should let people know that. [Laughter] Alison: He really doesn't gloat about that enough no but yeah. Bryan: Allison did I hear you do laundry every now and then? Alison: Every now then, you know I, the house-elves or my husband will not comply and I have to do my own. Bryan: Are you testing out that new GE, was it the GE product that you're testing out? Alison: Yeah so, so I have purchased the GE talking laundry box and actually we were in the market for a new washer and dryer anyway so we got the compatible washer and dryer and I've actually been doing a lot more of my own laundry and enjoying the heck out of it now that we have this talking machine because it's so easy to set all you really have to worry about is the start button and the little knob that controls the settings because the different wash cycles, because it verbalizes everything, you turn the knob, it verbalizes if you're on like cold wash, or towels and sheets, or casual wear, or bulky items, and you press Start and it says starting load on bulky items with an estimated 70 minutes remaining and there's a button on the box that you can press if you need an update of what, of time remaining and the dryer is much the same you just mess with the one knob, you can set your cycle and it just works. Our old washer and dryer we had the little arrows marked, but the one thing would spin, and there was another arrow that you could accidentally move, and Jeremy was really the only person who could set it without getting the other thing to spin, so I'm glad to be able to have some agency over my laundry once again. Bryan: And this works with all GE washer and dryers I believe right? Alison: So on the website it does say that it is, should be compatible with most, it should be compatible with the ones that have the ports in the back, the technician ports, but then it says these are the compatible models and it lists just a couple of different models. Slightly more expensive, that are compatible, I think that you can get this to work with older GE models if it has the port for technicians to hook up, but it's better I think in terms of the software working is optimally as it can if you can buy the the newer ones. Bryan: Yeah full disclaimer if your washer and dryers from 1974 and is GE..... Alison: Probably not going to work. Jeff: I do laundry and the thing on my washer and dryer mostly my washer is, there's that plastic cover that covers things up so you can't really tell the dial, so I took a needlenose pliers, it was excruciating sounds but I got that piece off of there, then I put some little markers on there, so now I just put my finger down there and I just turn it and everyone uses it that way so, yeah I don't recommend anybody to take a needle nose and tear that apart unless you know what you're doing but, yeah that's how I access that. Bryan: Yeah when you're like me and you live in New York it's great because I've got like fluff and fold where they pick it up and deliver it and it's pretty cheap and yeah I'm spoiled like that I think I've mentioned that on the show before. One of the things we did want to mention to the listeners if you do not have knfb reader you're just making your life harder, and it's a phenomenal app, I believe and don't quote me on this but I believe it's on sale at least through Christmas for about 50% off. Normally it's $100.00, I believe now it's $49.95. Go ahead and get that app, you'll make your life a lot easier if you want to read your bills or anything along that. Jeff: I really think if you're a student that that's the app to have. Seeing AI is a good app for a convenience, it's just a quick shuffle through the mail, but if you're gonna do bulk reading or if you want to save it and all sorts of things, you know, that's a workhorse the knfb reader app. Alison: I agree. Bryan: Yeah luckily I think all of us have easy names to pronounce, but I have a friend named Keith Strohak, and every time I tell Siri call Keith Strohak, it says did you mean Keith Sholstrum, did you mean Keith Beyer. It drives me bonkers, I have to go in and manually do it and I will put this link in the show notes. Did you know that you could teach Siri how to save names properly? Jeff: Mm-hmm. Alison: Yeah. Bryan: Okay I was the one who didn't. By the way ask Siri to pronounce Charlize Theron because I heard that's another name that she can't pronounce. Alison: Oh boy. Bryan: Yeah so if you're if you're one of those people and your name is Mustafi Mustafasin or something, go ahead and read this link and you know, maybe you could teach Siri how to read your name and everything. Jeff: The trick about it is that it asks you for the first name and then it asked for the second name, well I didn't know it was doing that so I said Laurie Thompson that's my wife, and then I said Laurie Thompson again. I wondered why it asked me twice, so every time she calls, are you sure you want to call Laurie Thompson Laurie Thompson? I left it I thought it was kind of cute. Alison: That is. Bryan: Now Jeff was a great guy and he posted you know happy holidays to everybody on the Blind Abilities Facebook page and I chimed in with my typical bah humbug and he thought that was you know the happiest he's ever heard me, and that's because he didn't hear how mad I was that my old Grubhub app that I've been running for several years because GrubHub has refused update is now officially dead. I finally had to update it and I don't know what I'm gonna do because this happened shortly before I left New York. I kept getting server error, server error, and I could not do anything so I had to update the app, GrubHub prepare for the barrage because I am gonna be hammering you every day now with fixing your heading navigation. I don't know. Alison: Now that your life depends on it yeah. Bryan: Yeah you know. Jeff: It's time to get that Blind Alive app, get that exercise going. Alison: Yeah. Jeff: Screw GrubHub. Bryan: I still gotta order dinner. I still gotta order dinner and everything. Alison: Try Postmates, try Doordash, you said Eat24 doesn't.... Bryan: Doordash I just heard about so yeah that's one I want to check... Alison: Yeah Postmates is also very good. Unfortunately in Napa our only choice really is Eat24, and that only has a couple of options. Bryan: Yeah you know one of the other things I plan to do when I get back from Florida is, because I've been running my old laptop here my Mac air, and it's so nice because it's running Sierra, and things have been running so smooth, as soon as I get home one of my first acts to do, I'm rolling High Sierra back, have you guys, I know Jeff's been playing High Sierra, Allison, are you still using High Sierra..... Alison: I am and for the limited number of things that I do on my Mac it's absolutely fine, I haven't really had any problems. Bryan: Editing text, when you're working with a lot of text and emails or documents and everything, it just befuddles me and everything, you know sometimes you gotta use the option key, and I did report this to Apple, quick nav does you know, when you use quick nav with words, it does not follow the insertion point, we did test it it is getting kicked up to engineers, there is a navigation problem with quick nav in Hi Sierra. Alison: That's unfortunate. Jeff: Yeah I'm using the beta's and you know it keeps on changing so I don't really complain about it I just keep using it and I know, I know it'll get better, so I just putz with it. Bryan: Yeah well Jeff you said you're running the latest beta and it's, you've noticed an improvement so, maybe it won't be the first thing I do when I get back to New York you know, maybe I'll give it one more update. I am not running the beta so I never run the betas on my computer and the word to the wise if you value productivity do not run those betas. Alison: Yeah, or have a partition on your hard drive or a separate hard drive on which to run them. Jeff: Oh my MacBook Pro [Inaudible] I'm not doing the betas on that so I can always go back to that if I need to but, you know I I usually forget that I'm slowly tweaking my muscle memory like you said Allison, and pretty soon I'm just readjusted. Changes happen and I don't know. Alison: Yep. Bryan: Chit chit chit chit oh wait, do we have to play now to use that song? In a more positive segment, I know we've rolled through some some negativity here, we don't want to be negative all the time but you know these are just some things that were pissing Brian off now because, Brian's been known to get pissed off. I always like to hear you know, what you guys watching, what you're reading, you know especially the holiday time of the year, there's a lot of great content out there. Netflix just seems to be piping everything out. Allison what you watching, what you reading? Alison: Well I'm still trying to work my way through Narcos, I have not had as much time for for Netflix recently, but I've been reading this really great book, I'm not sure if it's available on any of the freebies, unbarred or well book sure it's not free but it's practically free. I got off of Audible it's my Brandon Sanderson it's called "The way of Kings" it's part of the Stormlight archive series, it's an epic fantasy series, long long books, the first book I think is 45 hours long and I'm about 2/3 of the way through it, and it is absolutely amazing it's quite frankly taken over a lot of my life this holiday weekend. [Laughter] But it's amazing. Bryan: Well we're thankful that you were able to fit time in for the podcast. [Laughter] Alison: I did, I did have to interrupt my reading to.... [Laughter] Bryan: That 45 hours, that might take me 4 and 1/2 years to get through. Alison: Well I read at speed, I'm not gonna lie, I cranked it up to 3x and I can understand it just fine, so I'll get through it pretty quickly, but there's then two other main books, and then a little novella in the middle to read so. Bryan: That's a, that's a big.... Alison: It's gonna be ten books so... Bryan: Wow, wow, what about yourself Jeff, you been reading anything, watching anything? I know you've had some time alone there or are you just thinking in the dark? Jeff: I really got nothing, I guess I am thinking in the dark, family's been gone and I've been catching up on a bunch of other things that I hadn't been able to get back t,o and yeah, I got to get back to it so sorry you don't have anything to contribute. Bryan: That's okay Jeff. Jeff: Oh sorry. Bryan: I just finished down here with my parents you know I, they they were very nice and they watched, because their sighted with described video, the second season of Stranger Things, and the first season if you have not seen it as phenomenal I said to myself I don't know how they're gonna do a second season. It was really good so, it was very enjoyable, if you have not checked out Stranger Things on Netflix, you're definitely gonna want to check that out. I know we're gonna watch another series on Netflix that just came out I'm blanking on the name, the guy that was in Dumb and Dumber, not Jim Carrey, Jeff Daniels is in it, it's a Western that just came out on Netflix. I'm hearing great things about it of course I'm, like I said, God, Godlessness, or Godless or something, it's a Great Western, and I've heard from other people it's very good and everything and, yeah I've still got the same four books. You know it's so funny I'm one of those people that loads up all the audio digital content to all the devices for the travel and then I end up listening to podcasts that I have on my phone. [Laughter] During the travels so, like I said this is a That Blind Tech Show, we're gonna wrap it up here. We are at Blind Tech Show on Twitter. thatblindtechshow @gmail.com if you want to email us in let us know what you think, let us know what you like. You can download our feed through the Blind Abilities podcast speed of your podcast player of choice, victor reader stream or download the Blind Abilities app. Allison what do you have coming up the next few weeks leading into what's that holiday Christmas? Alison: Just a quiet Christmas at home, gonna take maybe a couple of days off and just probably still be reading the Stormlight archive honestly, although I, although I may do a reread of Harry Potter, I lead such an exciting life. [Laughter] Bryan: Nothing wrong with that, nothing wrong with that. What about yourself Jeff, family coming back or have they given up on you? Jeff: My folks for 17 years they've been going down the Texas but they stayed up this year for the holiday so I got to go to spend time with them Thanksgiving. We were all up there and so they're here so we're gonna have Christmas there and my daughter and grandkids will be coming up mid-December, we try and offset it each year and so yeah, a lot of lot of family holidays and I want to, I want to see the Grinch again this year. Bryan: So you want me to come visit? [Laughter] Yeah I'm not a big holiday person so Thanksgiving I guess is our big holiday and, we just wrapped that up down here and Thanksgiving, I'll be heading back to New York in the next few days and you know, it's funny I'm sitting here in shorts and it's 80 degree weather so it doesn't feel like November, and then I'll go back to the 30 degree weather and, yeah amazingly Nash is not even shedding that much here in Florida, you would think he would get rid of that winter coat, but he is panting like it's August. This is That Blind Tech Show, maybe we'll have one more before the year hopefully, you know, all of our schedules have been so crazy we haven't been on a regular schedule, we plan to hopefully eventually get on it, but for now we are out. When we share what we see through each other's eyes, we can then begin to bridge the gap between limited expectations and the reality of blind abilities. For more podcast with the blindness perspective, check us out on the web at www.blindabilities.com, on Twitter at BlindAbilities. Download our app from the app store Blind Abilities, or send us an email at info @blindabilities.com, thanks for listening.

Show Notes Disclaimer: This is the unedited transcript of the podcast. Please excuse any typos. Jeff:  Welcome back to Emplify, the podcast corollary to EB Medicine’s Emergency Medicine Practice. I’m Jeff Nusbaum, and I’m back with my co-host, Nachi Gupta and we’ll be taking you through the August 2018 issue of Emergency Medicine Practice. Nachi: This month’s topic is one that Jeff has significant personal experience with from his college days. We’re reviewing Cannabinoids -- and emerging evidence in their use and abuse. Jeff: Um… that is definitely not true. I was actually a varsity rower in college... Are we still reviewing talking points together before we start recording these episodes? Nachi: Sometimes… Jeff: This month’s issue was authored by Mollie Williams, who is the EM residency program director at the Brooklyn Hospital Center. It was peer-reviewed by Joseph Habboushe, assistant professor at NYU and Nadia Maria Shaukat, director of the emergency and critical care ultrasound at Coney Island Hospital in Brooklyn, New York. Nachi: We’re going to be talking about the pathophysiology of cannabinoids, clinical findings in abuse, best practice management, differences between natural and synthetic cannabinoids, and treatment for cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome. So buckle up and get ready. Jeff: As you’re listening through this episode, remember that the means that we are about to answer one of the CME questions from the end of the print issue. If you’re not driving while listening, be sure to jot down these answers and get your CME credit when we’re going through this issue.. Nachi: As of June 2018, there are 31 states, the District of Columbia, and 2 US territories that possess state and local-level laws allowing the use of cannabis medicinally or in recreational formulations. Marijuana actually maintains the highest lifetime use of an illicit drug used within the US. Jeff: There are a shocking 22 million past-month users of marijuana in the US, followed by pain relievers at 3.8 million, and cocaine at 1.9 million. Clearly, an important topic worth discussion, especially as synthetic products have become more widely available. Nachi: And worth noting -- Colorado, where medicinal and recreational marijuana use has been decriminalized and later legalized, has shown a nearly 2-fold increase in the prevalence of ED visits, which may be related to marijuana exposure. Jeff: Medicinally, cannabinoids are currently used in the treatment of chronic pain syndromes, complications of multiple sclerosis and paraplegia, weight loss due to appetite suppression in HIV/aids, chemotherapy-induced nausea and vomiting, seizures, and many other neuropsychiatric disorders. In fact, cannabis use has been documented for medical use dating as far back as 600 BC in West and Central Asia. Nachi: All of that being said though, there is an absence of high-quality reviews and evidence to support the use of cannabinoids for any of the indications you just mentioned. And the US DEA maintains cannabis as a Schedule I substance. Jeff: This DEA designation limits the ability to do research and obtain federal funding for such research. General lack of federal regulations on chemical content also leads to product variation, which may be a cause of increased incidences of accidental overdoses. Nachi: To attain the most up to date information for this article, Dr. Williams searched the PubMed and Cochrane Databases from 1950 to 2018. This produced predominantly case reports and retrospective studies. There were just a few randomized prospective studies -- not surprising. Jeff: Let’s get started with the pathophysiology. There are 3 cannabis species to be aware of: Cannabis sativa, cannabis indica, and cannabis ruderalis. Within these species, over 545 active cannabis-derived components have been described. Nachi: There are ten main constituents of cannabis sativa. Of these, 9-tetrahydrocannabinol (delta-9-THC) and cannabidiol (CBD) are found in the greatest quantities. The neuropsychiatric and addictive properties of cannabis are due primarily to the delta-9-THC. Jeff: THC and other cannabis derivatives work through the endocannabinoid system and other neuroregulators. The endogenous cannabinoid system has 4 components: (1) endogenous endocannabinoids, (2) receptors, (3) degradation enzymes, and (4) transport mechanisms. Nachi: There are two endogenous endocannabinoids to know about: anandamide (AEA) and 2-arachidonoyl-glycerol. Jeff: Cannabinoid receptors are broadly dispersed through the central nervous system, and to a lesser degree, also to other organ systems. Nachi: Because CB receptors are concentrated within the central nervous system, they exert the majority of their effects on the neuropsychiatric systems. And   -- yes that’s a double ding -- the cannabinoid 1 (or CB1) receptor is most responsible for cannabis-induced neuropsychiatric effects. Jeff: Interestingly, the anti-emetic effects and possible palliative properties of cannabis derivatives are thought to be secondary to the inhibitory effects on serotonin receptors and the excitatory effects on the transient receptor potential vanilloid 1 (or TRPV1).  More on TRPV1 later... Nachi: So far we have been talking about cannabinoids from the cannabis plant, but with cannabis being illegal in many states, there has been a growing emergence of synthetic cannabinoids. Synthetics were initially developed in the 1980s largely for research purposes. Jeff: Because the current DEA controlled substances schedule designations are based on original chemical names, synthetics have gained popularity as manufacturers are able to produce newer compounds and circumvent DEA designation as well as routine urine drug screening tests. Nachi: You may be familiar with some of the street names for synthetics -- like spice, K2, scooby snacks, black mamba, kush, and kronic. These can often be purchased over the internet or through specialty smoke shops. Jeff: Scooby Snacks, what a fantastic name, mooovingggg on… Synthetic cannabinoids often have greater affinity for the CB1 receptor than naturally occurring cannabinoids -- and synthetics can produce 100 times the effect. As a result, the presenting symptoms with synthetic intoxication can be difficult to differentiate from crystal meth or bath salt abuse. Nachi: Manufacturers sometimes use solvents and other contaminants. Clusters of toxic ingestions and deaths have occurred. Emergency clinicians need to be aware of this and should report suspicious events immediately. Jeff: For more on synthetic intoxications in the ED, be sure to take a look at the recent May 2018 issue of Pediatric Emergency Medicine Practice on Synthetic Drug Intoxication in Children if you haven’t already read it. Also, just a quick FYI - If you’re not a current subscriber to Pediatric Emergency Medicine Practice, we’re giving away a free copy of the issue specifically for our listeners. Just head over to ebmedicine.net/drugs for the PDF of the issue. Nachi: A free issue for our listeners, that’s nice! Let’s move on to a discussion about current indications for cannabinoids. So, there is no clear consensus on these indications, but there is some research of varying quality that supports the treatment of some chronically debilitating diseases with cannabinoids. Jeff: A systematic review and meta-analysis from 2015 found low-quality evidence to support cannabis therapy for appetite suppression in HIV and aids patients; moderate-quality evidence for treatment of chronic pain and spasticity; and also moderate quality evidence for some chronic debilitating diseases. Nachi: While talking about evidence-based medicine here, another review by the National Academies of Science, Engineering, and Medicine on possible associations between cannabis and cancers arising in the lungs, head, and neck, or testicles -- showed no statistically significant associations exist. Jeff: So in case that wasn’t clear - the overall evidence to support cannabis therapy, in general, is weak. Also, be aware that there are various formulations of cannabis that allow for different routes of administration. We’re talking oils, tinctures, teas, extracts, edibles like candies and baked goods, parenteral formulations, eye solutions, intranasal, sublingual, transmucosal, tablets, sprays, skin patches, topical creams, rectal suppositories, and capsules -- just to name, a few. Nachi: A few! That seems pretty complete to me. Basically, any way you can imagine, it seems like a route of administration has been explored. But of importance, these formulations have different absorption times -- as you might expect. The shortest duration to peak plasma levels of delta-9-THC is through the inhalation route, which can produce effects within 3 minutes. On the longer end, rectal cannabis administration can take up to 8 hours to reach peak plasma concentrations. Jeff: Let’s talk about some of the clinical findings and systemic effects associated with cannabis use. First up is the link between cannabis use and stroke or TIA. Cannabis users who smoked at least once weekly had a 3.3 times higher risk of stroke or TIA. Nachi: And there is moderate quality evidence that this link may be dose-dependent. Larger amounts of cannabis use lead to cerebral vasospasm and a reduction in cerebral blood flow. Jeff: In terms of psychiatric effects, several low-to-moderate quality studies have shown statistically significant associations between psychosis and self-reported cannabis use. Some association between high potency cannabis or synthetic cannabinoid use with new-onset psychosis or relapse in previous psychiatric disorders has also been found. Lastly, there is weak data supporting a correlation between cannabis use and depression. Nachi: From a cardiovascular standpoint, cannabis use is associated with increased resting heart rate, hypertension, and decreases in the anginal threshold for patients with chronic stable angina. A 2001 study described an augmented risk of myocardial infarction within the first hour of cannabis use and found an almost 5-fold increase in those who reported smoking cannabis at least weekly when compared to those who smoked monthly or less. Jeff: Dysrhythmias, qt prolongation, av blocks, myocarditis, and sudden death have all been reported with cannabinoids. Nachi: In terms of pulmonary effects, these are not really related to cannabis use directly, but rather the smoke inhalation and combustion materials of synthetic cannabinoids. Effects from chronic use can be seen. Jeff: Renally speaking, acute kidney injury and rhabdomyolysis are associated with synthetic cannabinoids and have been observed in several case reports. The rhabdo is believed to be due, in part, to associated seizures, muscle tremors, and agitation. Nachi: Among metabolic abnormalities, patients can present with hyperthermia, hypoglycemia, hypokalemia, hyponatremia, and metabolic acidosis. Jeff: Orally and dentally, dry mouth is the most common finding in acute cannabis toxicity. Chronic use has also been linked to severe periodontitis. Nachi: And ophthalmologically, there is, of course, the commonly seen conjunctival injection. Cannabis has also been found to decrease intraocular pressure when used topically -- and of note, there have also been rare reports of acute angle closure glaucoma and central retinal vein occlusion. Jeff: While talking about clinical findings and systemic effects of cannabis use, we certainly need to go over cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome (or CHS), which is -- quite simply put -- associated with frequent visits to the ED in chronic users. It presents with nausea, vomiting, and abdominal pain. Nachi: CHS is commonly misdiagnosed as cyclical vomiting syndrome. After the legalization of marijuana in Colorado, it was reported that nearly twice as many patients had presented for what was thought to be cyclical vomiting syndrome. And ironically, though cannabis has been used as an anti-emetic, chronic use can cause the opposite reaction, leading to CHS, which is typically refractory to traditional anti-emetics. Jeff: And the etiology of CHS is not well understood. Similarly, the exact criteria for CHS are poorly defined. It presents as a recurrent and relapsing disorder that can be divided into 3 phases: prodromal, hyperemetic, and recovery. Nachi: In the prodromal phase, patients complain of early morning nausea without vomiting, and they can have mild abdominal discomfort. This can last from months to years. In the hyperemetic phase, patients complain of severe, unremitting abdominal pain with repeated episodes of vomiting and retching. This is often associated with an inability to tolerate po. Jeff: The hyperemetic phase lasts 24-48 hours and can lead to dehydration, electrolyte abnormalities, and weight loss. Patients may learn to relieve symptoms by compulsively bathing in hot water. Nachi: Resolution of symptoms is seen when the patient stops using cannabis. This is during the recovery phase, which can last from days to months. But this can be short-lived if the patients begin using cannabis again. Jeff: On that note, we should also touch on cannabis withdrawal. Termination of heavy and habitual use can lead to withdrawal syndromes within 48 hours. Symptoms here include irritability, anxiety, restlessness, sleep difficulty, seizures, and aggression. Medications that can be helpful include benzodiazepines, neuroleptic agents, and quetiapine in refractory cases. Nachi: Moving on to the next sections in the article, let’s talk about differential diagnosis and prehospital care. The differential for acute cannabinoid intoxication, as you might suspect, is broad, and it includes some life-threatening processes. We won’t list them here, but be sure to think broadly before deciding on cannabis as the cause of your patient’s symptoms. Jeff: For the prehospital providers -- care here is mainly supportive. Provide airway protection as needed - gather information from the patient’s environment, looking for empty pill bottles or another empty packaging. Nachi: Let’s move on to care once in the ED. All patients who are in distress and suspected of drug ingestion should be disrobed completely and placed on a cardiac monitor. Fully assess for trauma and place an IV in the patient. Search the patient’s clothing for drugs and paraphernalia, which may help in making the diagnosis. Jeff: When getting a complete history from the patient, it may also be worthwhile to talk with any persons accompanying the patient to the ER for more information. In your history, be sure to ask about a pattern of use and possible co-ingestions. Nachi: When considering cannabis hyperemesis syndrome, a detailed history and physical exam are crucial for making the diagnosis. To differentiate between other etiologies of abdominal pain and vomiting, be sure to ask about the use of hot baths for relief, resolution of symptoms after stopping cannabis use, and the predominance of symptoms in the morning hours. Jeff: On physical exam, for cannabis intoxication, there isn’t a particular toxidrome to look for. Monitor vital signs closely, looking out for alterations in blood pressure and heart rate. A complete neurologic and mental status examination will be the key here. Nachi: Decisions for lab testing should be dependent on the patient’s presentation. Possible tests include CBC, BMP, LFT’s, lipase, cpk, ckmb, troponin, urinalysis, urine drug screening, serum tox screens (for alcohol, aspirin, and acetaminophen), and any other drug levels for medications that the patient is taking for medicinal purposes, like phenytoin or lithium levels. Jeff: One study supported point of care urine drug testing in the ED. However, know that acute cannabis intoxication can be difficult in the chronic user, as delta-9-THC will be present in urine for up to 24 days. Testing for synthetically derived cannabinoids is difficult due to changes in synthetic compounds. Nachi: Interestingly, there are a number of medications that are associated with false positive cannabinoid screenings. These include ibuprofen, pantoprazole, efavirenz, and lamotrigine. Jeff: For any patient arriving with suspected cannabis or synthetic abuse, consider checking an EKG. You’re looking for signs of ischemia, arrhythmia, and interval abnormalities. Serum and urine tox tests are not particularly helpful in the acute chest pain patient who is using synthetic marijuana. Nachi: Not surprisingly, there are no specific diagnostic imaging modalities to help diagnose cannabis or synthetic cannabinoid intoxication. But imaging may help with assessing other disease states on a patient’s differential, so stay mindful of that. Jeff: Now that we’ve talked about history, physical exam, and useful testing modalities, let’s talk about treatment for cannabis and synthetic cannabinoid toxicity… therapy is primarily focused on supportive care. Most ED visits only require a short stay. Nachi: That’s right, there are no antidotes to give for treatment here. Be sure to look for and treat dehydration, acute renal failure, and rhabdo though. In severe cases of neuropsychotropic effect, give benzodiazepines, like lorazepam, to help with control. Jeff: For GI effects, first-line treatment is traditional anti-emetics like ondansetron or metoclopramide. Recent literature and case reports have shown significant improvement with butyrophenones like haloperidol as a second-line treatment. Nachi: While talking about treating the gastrointestinal effects of cannabis toxicity, let’s also discuss methods to control cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome. The mainstays for treatment here are actually supportive therapy and cessation of cannabis use. Jeff: And can you tell us more about why these patients crave hot showers and improve after? Is there a pathophysiology or mechanism to know about there? Nachi: There is a well-studied theory here and it relates to the TRPV1 receptor that we talked about earlier. Temperatures in excess of 109 degrees Fahrenheit, acidic conditions, and compounds found in certain foods and plants (like cannabis) activate this receptor. It’s believed that intermittent and repetitive exposure to agonists of the TRPV1 receptor leads to a persistent state of nausea and vomiting. Desensitization of the receptor happens after repeated stimulation, and repetitive topical capsaicin or hot water is believed to function as an exogenous agonist. Jeff: In any case of repetitive emesis, be sure to consider electrolyte replacement if needed. In many cases, hydration or repletion will need to happen through an IV. Proton pump inhibitors can also help in some cases where GI symptoms are a dominating complaint of the patient. Nachi: Recent literature supporting the use of haloperidol for nausea and vomiting has found that symptoms improve approx 1hr after administration. This can decrease the need for observation or admission. Jeff: Haloperidol works via dopamine 2 receptor antagonism. D2 receptors are found in high concentrations throughout the nervous system and bind with high affinity to haloperidol. The suggested starting dose is 2.5mg IV with a repeat dose of 5mg IV if needed. An RCT is underway in Canada on the use of ondansetron versus haloperidol with an estimated completion of July 2019. Nachi: Capsaicin has similarly shown promise in cannabis hyperemesis syndrome through the TRPV1 receptor as we discussed already. Currently, there are no dosing recommendations or application instructions for capsaicin. There is some evidence supporting relief within 30 to 45 minutes, and capsaicin can be applied topically to any nonmucosal surface like the abdomen, chest, or back. Jeff: So to recap -for cannabis hyperemesis syndrome, treat with anti-emetics, PPI’s, electrolyte repletion, and IV hydration as needed. As a second line treatment, consider haloperidol and topical capsaicin applied to the chest, abdomen, or back. Nachi: Let’s talk about some special populations next -- starting with Pediatrics. According to data from 2012, of the 130 million people reporting illicit drug use within their lifetime, 25% were children between 12 and 17 years of age. Jeff: And according to the national poison data system, states with marijuana use laws have seen a 30% increase in calls related to marijuana use by children. From 2010 to 2011, the number of ED visits by children aged 12 to 17 years old due to synthetic cannabinoid use also has doubled. Nachi: Many children and adults believe that synthetic cannabinoids don’t pose serious health risks, as these are not illegal to purchase. And this class of drugs is particularly attractive to adolescents since it will not readily test positive on urine drug tests. All of this is very concerning for emergency clinicians. Jeff: There have been several recent reports of myocarditis in association with marijuana use. One case resulted in death due to myocyte necrosis after an unknown amount of edible marijuana was consumed by a toddler. Nachi: Horrific! Jeff: And the exact mechanism through which the myocardial necrosis happens isn’t known. Nachi: For all children and adolescents who present to the ED with alteration in mental status, psychosis, or chest pain -- be sure to screen for cannabis or synthetic cannabinoid use.  There are case reports in the pediatric literature of STEMIs seen in patients without pre-existing cardiac disease or risk factors. Jeff: Keep in mind that urine drug screens can be falsely positive from certain proton pump inhibitors, so if possible, assess a urine drug screen prior to starting a PPI in these patients. Nachi: Moving on to our next special population… pregnant women. Know that it can be difficult to the differential between hyperemesis gravidarum and cannabis hyperemesis syndrome in pregnant patients. Ask specific questions regarding marijuana use before and during the pregnancy. Jeff: It’s also worth noting that cannabis is known to cause adverse outcomes on babies such as low birth weight and more frequent perinatal ICU placement. Nachi: Let’s move on to the final major section of the article, which is on the legal status of cannabis and cannabinoids. Much of the controversy surrounding cannabis for medicinal use relates to the absence of quality evidence. More research is needed to evaluate potential public health risks posed by variations in quality and potency, potential impact to our healthcare system, and ability to legislate for synthetic cannabinoids. Jeff: Though marijuana and all whole-plant derivatives are schedules I controlled substances, there are a few cannabinoid-based drugs approved by the FDA for medicinal purposes -- with lower schedule designations. Dronabinol is a schedule III drug derived synthetically from delta-9-THC. It’s used in chemotherapy-induced nausea/vomiting, as well as anorexia and weight loss from AIDS/cancer. Nachi: Nabilone, a schedule II synthetic variant of THC, has been approved in the treatment of aids-related anorexia and chemotherapy-induced nausea also. Jeff: Nabiximols, a plant-derived cannabinoid, has been approved in Europe and Canada for multiple sclerosis induced spasticity and cancer-related pain. Nabiximols are not yet approved in the US. Nachi: And lastly, we should mention cannabidiol, which is a schedule I controlled substance approved for treatment of seizures with 2 rare diseases -- Lennox-gastaut syndrome and dravet syndrome. Compared with placebo alone cannabidiol and other medications have shown efficacy in lowering the rate of seizures for these diseases. Jeff:  Lots of interesting stuff to look out for there in cannabinoid-related medications. Alright, on to disposition - Nachi: Most patients who present with uncomplicated acute cannabis or synthetic cannabinoid intoxication can be observed until clinically sober. Discharge home should be in the care of a sober family member or friend. Make sure that the patient knows not to operate vehicles or heavy machinery under the influence of drugs. Counsel them on drug abuse also. Jeff:   In more rare situations, patients will require admission. Consider this particularly for patients who have end-organ damage, rhabdomyolysis, acute renal failure -- evidence of cardiovascular, cerebrovascular, or ophthalmologic insults -- intractable vomiting, or acute psychosis. Nachi: And for cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome, patients may require admission for IV hydration and electrolyte correction. Once the patient is tolerating PO and lab derangements have been corrected, they can be discharged. Jeff: Let’s wrap up the episode with key points and clinical pearls… N: Marijuana is the most commonly used illicit substance in the US. States that have legalized marijuana for medical and recreational purposes are showing increased rates of marijuana abuse and dependence. J: When concerned with drug intoxication, search your patient’s clothing for drugs and paraphernalia on arrival. N: The neuropsychiatric and addictive properties of cannabis are due primarily to delta-9-THC. J: Synthetic cannabinoids have gained popularity as manufacturers are able to produce newer compounds and circumvent DEA designations as well as routine urine drug screening tests. N: Manufacturers of synthetic cannabinoids sometimes use solvents and other contaminants, which have caused clusters of toxic ingestions and death. J: The shortest duration to peak plasma levels of delta-9-THC is through the inhalational route. Effects can be seen within 3 minutes. N: Cannabis users who smoke at least once weekly can have a 3.3 times higher risk of stroke or TIA. J: The risk of myocardial infarction is increased within the first hour of use, and there is an almost 5-fold increase for individuals who smoke at least once per week. N: Acute kidney injury and rhabdomyolysis have been noted with synthetic cannabinoid use in several case reports. J: Cannabis intoxication is associated with many metabolic abnormalities like hyperthermia, hypoglycemia, hypokalemia, hyponatremia, and metabolic acidosis. N: Cannabis hyperemesis syndrome, which presents with abdominal pain and vomiting, is associated with frequent visits to the ED in chronic users. J: The mainstay for treatment of cannabis hyperemesis syndrome is supportive therapies and cessation of cannabis use. N: Patients with cannabis hyperemesis syndrome crave hot showers because of activation of the TRPV1 receptor. J: Topical capsaicin may also help in the treatment of cannabis hyperemesis syndrome through activation of the TRPV1 receptors. N: Haloperidol at 2.5mg IV may help in refractory vomiting associated with cannabis hyperemesis syndrome. J: Many children and adults do not believe synthetic cannabinoids pose serious health issues as the they are not illegal to purchase. This is incorrect. N: Most patients with acute uncomplicated cannabis intoxication can be observed and discharged. Admit if there are any signs of end organ damage, intractable vomiting, or acute psychosis. Jeff: So that wraps up the August 2018 episode of Emplify. Nachi: For those of you looking for CME - the address for this months credit is ebmedicine.net/E0818, so head over there right away to get the credit you deserve.  Remember that the you heard throughout the episode corresponds to the answers to the CME questions. Jeff: And don’t forget to grab your free issue of Synthetic Drug Intoxication in Children at ebmedicine.net/drugs specifically for emplify listeners. Feel free to share the link with your colleagues or through social media too. See you next time! Most Important References 5. * Kim HS, Monte AA. Colorado cannabis legalization and its effect on emergency care. Ann Emerg Med. 2016;68(1):71-75. (Literature review; 21 studies)7. * Baron EP. Comprehensive review of medicinal marijuana, cannabinoids, and therapeutic implications in medicine and headache: What a long strange trip it’s been …. Headache. 2015;55(6):885-916. (Review)9. * Whiting PF, Wolff RF, Deshpande S, et al. Cannabinoids for medical use: a systematic review and meta-analysis. JAMA. 2015;313(24):2456-2473. (Retrospective chart review; 4 cases)64. * Tournebize J, Gibaja V, Kahn JP. Acute effects of synthetic cannabinoids: update 2015. Subst Abus. 2016:1-23. (Systematic review; 46 articles, 114 patients)83. * Wallace EA, Andrews SE, Garmany CL, et al. Cannabinoid hyperemesis syndrome: literature review and proposed diagnosis and treatment algorithm. South Med J. 2011;104(9):659-664. (Review)

Job Insights Extra: Adjustment to Blindness - Meet Rob Hobson: College Prep and Success All in One. Transcript Provided Job Insights Extra brings you Rob Hobson, Cordinator for Professional Development and College prep at Blindness Learning In New Dimensions, Inc. Best known as Blind, Inc. located in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Rob tells his story how he overcame the challenges that nearly defeated him when entering his Masters program. He made a decision to improve his Blindness skills and this led him on the journey he continues today. From nearly bailing out to exceeding his own expectations by finishing his Masters degree ahead of time and landing a job in the career he wanted. Rob talks about his job details when he started as an Orientation and Mobility instructor to his duties today as Cordinator of Professional Development and the College Prep program. Join Rob Hobson and Jeff Thompson on this brief look into Rob’s Adjustment to Blindness and how he is helping others adjust to their Blindness today. You can find out more about Blind,Inc and Adjustment to Blindness on the web at www.BlindInc.org You can also contact Rob and Blind, Inc. via email You can find out more about State Services for the Blind on the web at www.MN.Gov/Deed/SSB And to find Services in your state check out the American Foundation for the Blind web site and enter your State’s name in the, “Find Local Services” section. Thank you for listening! You can follow Job Insights on Twitter @JobInsightsVIP Send the Job Insights Team and email and give us some feedback and suggest some topics you would like to see us cover. Job Insights is part of the Blind Abilities Network. You can follow us on Twitter @BlindAbilities On the web at www.BlindAbilities.com Send us an email Get the Free Blind Abilities App on the App Store. Get the Free blind Abilities App on the Google Play Store.   Job Insights Extra: Adjustment to Blindness - Meet Rob Hobson: College Prep and Success All in One. Transcript Provided [Music] Rob: When I started that semester, I soon realized that the skills I used in college from my undergrad weren't gonna work in grad school. Jeff: That's the voice of Rob Hobson, Coordinator of Professional Development and College Prep at Blindness Learning in New Dimensions. Rob: Set up an interview and came up here in early December of 2008 and I was offered a position and I accepted. Jeff: Rob talks about the challenges that he faced when transitioning from college to his master's degree program, and how adjustment to blindness training gave him the skills and confidence to succeed. Rob: We use structure discovery which utilizes the environment as a teaching tool and if you only just know one specific route, that can be really debilitating because that's all you know. Jeff: And you can find the Job Insights podcast on blindabilities.com, part of the Blind Abilities Network with host Serina Gilbert and myself Jeff Thompson, and you can contact us by email at JobInsights@blindabilities.com, and join us on the job insight support group on Facebook, on Twitter at Job Insights VIP. Rob: Get that adjustment to blindness training because it is vital for you to be able to compete out there with your sighted peers. Keep an open mind because there is a lot of life after blindness. [Music] Jeff: I went down to South Minneapolis to the historic Pillsbury mansion, the home of Blind Incorporated and that's where we met up with Rob Hobson, we hope you enjoy! [Music] Welcome to Blind Abilities I'm Jeff Thompson and today we're down at Blind Incorporated in Minneapolis we're talking to Rob Hobson and he's the Coordinator for Professional Development and College Prep. How are you doing Rob? Rob: I'm doing well on yourself Jeff? Jeff: Doing good thanks, Rob thanks for taking the time to coming on the Blind Abilities and sharing a little bit about your journey through blindness and your job that you have. Rob: Oh thank you I'm happy to be here. Jeff: Well Rob, can you tell a little bit about what your job is like here? Rob: Well working here at Blind Incorporated, it's a lot of fun, we have a great team and we work together as a team to provide adjustment to blindness training to college-age students, to adults, to seniors, and we have transition programming, and we even have a buddy program which covers 9 to 13 year olds. Jeff: You cover the whole gauntlet? Rob: Yeah we do, it's, it's great, it's, it's a lot of fun. [Bass guitar sound effect] Jeff: Now you did not start out as a Program Coordinator? Rob: Well when I started at Blind Incorporated, I started in 2009, but I should go further back, actually, it's actually a little journey. In 2006 I started grad school at Southern Illinois University in Carbondale to get a master's degree in public administration, on paper that sounds great, when I started that semester I soon realized that the skills I used in college from my undergrad weren't gonna work in grad school. The bar was a lot higher, note takers were hard to get, because I utilized their services through disability services through the campus and I realized that my skills weren't up to par because I just couldn't keep up. Every time I thought I did great, I was still further behind. What really hit it for me was when I took this budgeting class and I thought I got all the points possible, and in that class it was zero to five, five was like the max of points you can get, so I thought hey, I might have gotten a four or five, and I got my grade and it was a 1.5, and the words that really changed my view was, well I felt bad, so I just gave you a 1.5. And that really hurt, it really set, threw me back a loop, you know, it's like wow, I've never had that happen to me before. I called some friends who are in the NFB and I talked to them about, you know, maybe it's time for me to get some adjustment to blindness training. I knew it would be a process because getting Illinois, because that's where I lived at the time, to pay for it was a process. I've heard horror stories that sometimes it could take two years but I was pretty confident that it wouldn't take that long. So in August of 2006 I met with a counselor, I convinced her to start the process and I had an O&M evaluation. I wrote a letter stating why I needed this training and what it was going to do for me, so I had an O&M evaluation, through the letter I was able to convince them to provide me the opportunity to go to the Louisiana Center for the blind in Ruston Louisiana. I started my program at the end of March of 2007, and that's when I started my journey in blindness training. Now to be fair, my goal was to get through the program, go back to Southern Illinois University in Carbondale, and complete my Master's in Public Administration Degree. Well while I was in the program, it was suggested to me that I should consider the Louisiana Tech O&M program and I considered it for about 1/2 a second and I thought no that's not me. As they say it, it put the seed there and throughout the summer of 2007 I realized that hey, you know I might actually like this. I started the process in the fall to go into Louisiana Tech, in the end of November I started my first classes as a Louisiana Tech student in grad school. Jeff: Now Rob, could it be that winter was coming and.... Rob: I'm not gonna lie, that was true, I thought that was a good benefit but really I was excited to start this program because I knew that, you know at the end of this program I would be able to get a job, and believe it or not, throughout that year it took me a year, end of November of 2007, and by November 19th of 2008 I walked away with a college degree, a graduate degree, from Louisiana Tech. It was a rough year, they say that a master's degree generally is a year and a half to two years, I did it in a year, it was probably the hardest year of my whole life at that time. Jeff: Congratulations! Rob: Thank you. I soon talked to Sean Mayo who was the Executive Director of Blind Incorporated, set up an interview and came up here in early December of 2008 and I was offered the position and I accepted. In January of 2009 I started as a Blind Incorporated employee, and to be fair, I only planned to be here year after about a month of working here because it was so cold, but I soon liked it, teaching cane travel was a lot of fun, it took me a while to get into my zone, you know because when you come to a new city you have to learn how to navigate the streets and learn the grid, the outline, you know all of the names of the roads, and I knew I had the skills to teach, it was a matter of learning the environment so I could teach and understand how to relate that information to my students. Jeff: So did you do a lot of exploring in your off time and just try and navigate the city and learn it? Rob: I did, I spent a lot of time learning south Minneapolis, I spent some time with Zach Ellingson who was the full-time cane travel instructor at the time, and we talked a lot, he really helped me gain the information necessary to teach. I spent some time observing him just to see how he taught because you know, when you're still a new teacher, you still like to get other teaching styles and I knew Zach was really successful at what he was doing and it was a good resource to work with. I spent a lot of time on weekends going out to other places in the city but at the time I really focused on south Minneapolis because I knew majority of my instruction was gonna be during that time. I later throughout the years, I gained knowledge in Northeast Minneapolis, Southeast Minneapolis, St. Paul, I know some of St. Paul, I don't know a lot of it but I know enough to to be able to teach it. Jeff: Now learning the areas that you did, it's pretty much transferable skills the way you teach here right? Rob: It is, the skills are transferable but you know it's like anything else, when you want to teach someone you have to still know what you're teaching, does that make sense? Because we also teach how to navigate the area via some of the names, so I needed to know those names so I can you know pass that information along, learn bus routes, I learned a lot of the bus routes, but yes, the skills I learned in Ruston Louisiana were transferable once I figured out the grid system and for an example, Hennepin Avenue is your divider between north and south Minneapolis, and the river, the Mississippi River divides southeast Minneapolis and northeast Minneapolis from north and south Minneapolis, and anything more than that you get a little complicated because it depends on where you are further south in the city, you actually have the river divider between St. Paul and Minneapolis. [Bass Guitar Sound Effect] Jeff: There's always been a debate about people sometimes teaching route travel compared to teaching skills that will allow you to explore other areas and use the same set of skills. Rob: That is true, in our format we use structure discovery which utilizes the environment as a teaching tool. We do start off with students in the beginning giving them simple route assignments so that they learn to gain that confidence and gain those problem-solving skills so that they're able to change those routes, make a diversion if need be, I mean because, well if you've walked in Minneapolis in the summer, you know that, maybe every, about every few blocks there's construction, or they tear up a sidewalk to put in a new one, or whatnot, you have to be able to problem solve in that and if you only just know one specific route, that can be really debilitating because that's all you know, and how are you gonna be able to get through that situation. Jeff: Yep I graduated from Blind Incorporated and I remember the whole thing, the only thing Zack always got upset was, I grew up here so, when he was trying to fool me or something, I'd hear a church bell. Rob: Oh, and that gave it away didn't it? Jeff: I could identify the church, so he would be more creative next time you know, just knowing that I had a few cues that other people didn't have so it was always interesting. Now in your new position, what do you do for Blind Incorporated? Rob: Currently I set up all of our activities, I coordinate from beginning to end. For an example last year we went camping for the first time in I don't know how many years, at least since I've been here we've never gone camping up to that point, and we actually went camping, we stayed in tents and that was a long process to put that together because there's a lot of details involved. It's not like we all just got in a van and drove up to Duluth area and pick the camping site and just went camping. There's a lot of details involved when you take 30 people, 30 of your closest friends and students up to, up to go camping. So there's logistics because you have to work on you know the amount of food, how many tents, how many people per tents, just a lot of logistics. I coordinate all of the logistics to make sure everything falls in line, all of our activities from camping to just going rock climbing at vertical endeavors. Starting last year we started putting together professional development for the staff and students, some of the highlights, we had Kevin O'Connor come in, who is a renowned professional speaker who came in and talked to our staff and students on basically just professional development, working with each other, and what does it mean to be professional, and covered all of those components. We also had somebody come in and do a multicultural training, we had somebody come in and talk about cognitive disabilities, we've done some first aid CPR, so we've done a lot of different programming, but we've done it before but not to this caliber, so we really have a professional development piece about every three months or so for the staff and we started incorporating the students in that as well because it's important I think for our students to be able to have that information, they can put it on their resume, and I think it makes them even more employable. [Music] Jeff: You also had a program called Blind and Socially Savvy, can you tell us a little bit about what that is? Rob: So Blind and Socially Savvy really covers the soft skills, starting in conversation with somebody, proper way to introduce somebody, etiquette, so they have an etiquette meal where they actually sit down, a full meal and they learn how to conduct themselves in a professional environment because I'm sure you know Jeff that there are always interviews, sometimes those interviews are sitting down with a meal with your future employer, so it's a great opportunity to be able to conduct yourself professionally, it makes it even more likely for you to get that job. Also it's good to be professional and to have that proper etiquette because you're going to be amongst peers, whether they're your fellow co-workers, or friends, family, maybe you volunteer in an organization, it's great to have that etiquette because it puts you even higher up on the bar of success. Jeff: I attended something very similar to that and I remember they said, your bread is not a mop and turn your phone off, and pay all your attention to the person, it's not about the food mostly, it's about the interview so to say, or the person that you're attending with. Rob: That is correct. Jeff: And then they went through, start from the, just like on the Titanic, start with the outside silver and wake work your way in, so there's a lot of information there that people are kind of expected to know, but if you haven't had the opportunity to learn it, Blind and Socially Savvy that you guys provide here, is awesome! Rob: Yeah and we didn't do it ourselves, we did it along with State Services for the Blind, we worked well with them and Sheila Koenig who's the coordinator for transition for SSB, she worked really well with Dan Wenzel the executive director here, and Michelle Get, who coordinates our transition programs. Jeff: And you do have a lot of programs here and opportunities that you mentioned early and it's really neat to see all the stuff that's happening from the summer to prep to like I said you cover the whole gauntlet here. Rob: Yep we also are starting a new program, it's our College Programming or I like to call it College Prep and what it is is students come in maybe they don't want to do a full six to nine month program but they want to come in and get some of those non-visual adjustment to blindness skills. So they'll come in for a summer, get that training, and if they're new to going to college we actually have a college class component that would start in the fall where they could take a class and still continue to get some adjustment to blindness skills, we would work with them on navigating a campus, and specifically that campus, and we would also work with them on study skills, note-taking skills, all of the the skills necessary to be successful in college. I know when I first started college I was absolutely terrified and I think even now with, with the technology being the way it is, back then you know if you had a computer you were lucky, but nowadays there's phones, there's Braille displays, there's lots of different technology out there that we would be able to work with students on so that they are fully competent and capable to be successful in college so that they can be employable in the future. Jeff: And being able to use that equipment on day one! Rob: Exactly, I mean that's, I think that's a really good point Jeff, you don't want to start, get your technology September first when you start at the class in late August and then have to learn how to use it while taking classes at the same time. We like to work with students early so that they have those skills when they start the college class, that they are able to know how to use their technology, take the best notes possible so that they can be self-sufficient. [Music] Jeff: Rob Hobson thank you very much for what Blind Incorporated does here in Minneapolis and across the nation because other students come from other states and you guys give them an opportunity to succeed, give them skills and the confidence to do so. What advice would you give to someone who has recently become blind visually impaired or has trouble reading the printed word, and what advice would you give them as they start that journey? Rob: I would say keep an open mind, blindness is probably the one of the most terrifying disabilities out there, and really it's because of the unknown, it's a sighted world out there, people perceive through what they see, but keep an open mind because there is a lot of life after blindness. I lost my vision I, I wasn't fully sighted but when I did have some vision I lost it pretty quickly due to a retinal detachment and, and that's a long journey itself, but I know what it's like, it's tough, but what I can tell you is working with State Services for the Blind, figure out your options, whether it's Blind Incorporated, VLR, or Duluth Lighthouse, get that adjustment to blindness training because it is vital for you to be able to compete out there with your sighted peers and really that adjustment to blindness training is what's going to put you on that same platform for success. Learn those skills, know how to cook, clean, learn to read Braille, technology, cane travel, because you got to be able to get there on your own. You can always use Uber and Lyft but I can tell you that stuff's expensive, I know I look at my bank account every month, not that I use it every day but I use it just for quick things, it's expensive, so you're not going to be able to do that all the time, so you've got to pick up those, you know learn those non-visual skills that you can travel independently. Remember that blindness is not a tragedy. I like to say blindness is what you make of it, you can look at it as a tragedy, or you can look at it as, you know what, this is a new challenge, and I'm here to overcome it. Jeff: So Rob, if someone want to get a hold of you or Blind Incorporated, do you have any contact information? Rob: Sure do, you can call our main number 612-872-0100, and ask for Jennifer Wenzels, she handles our intake. You can also ask for me, I'm happy to talk to you if you have any questions, my extension is 220, and Jennifer's extension is 251. We also if you like email, you can send an email to info@blindinc.org. Jeff: info@blindinc.org, well Rob thank you once again for taking the time, sharing your story, sharing your experience with the listeners and, really appreciate it. Rob: Oh you're welcome Jeff, it was a pleasure. [Music] Jeff: Yes it was a real pleasure talking to Rob Hobson, and if you want a contact Blind Incorporated, send them an email at info@blindinc.org, on the web at blindinc.org, and to find out more about State Services for the Blind check us out on the web at www.mn.gov/deed/ssb, and to find services in your state check out American Foundation for the Blind's website at AFB.org. And Thank You Chee Chau for the beautiful music and you can follow Chee Chau on Twitter at lcheechau. Once again, thank you for listening, we hope you enjoyed, and until next time bye-bye [Music] [Multiple voices] When we share what we see through each other's eyes, We can then begin to bridge the Gap between the limited expectations and the realities of Blind Abilities. Jeff: For more podcast with the blindness perspective, check us out on the web at www.blindabilities.com, on twitter at BlindAbilities, download our app from the app store, Blind Abilities, that's two words, or send us an email at info@blindabilities.com, thanks for listening.  

Job Insights #4: Apps With Productivity in Mind for Education and in the Workplace. Transcript Provided Welcome to the 4th episode of Job Insights with Serina Gilbert and Jef Thompson. We focus on Employment, Careers, enhancing opportunities and bringing you the latest innovations from across the Vocational Rehabilitation field to ensure your choices lead you down the career pathway that you want and succeed in gainful employment. From getting started with services, to assessments, Individual Plan for Employment (IPE) to gaining the skills to succeed and tools for success, Job Insights will be giving you tips and tricks to help your journey to employment and break down the barriers along the way. On this 4th episode of Job Insights Hope Paulos joins Serina Gilbert and Jeff Thompson in the studio and they talk about productivity apps and software. From the classroom to the workplace, these apps are geared towards making your daily challenges a bit more manageable, efficient and productive. Hours Tracker, Black Board, Drafts, Files, SeeingAI, Dictionary Thesaurus Pro, KNFBReader and Bookshare’s Read To Go app are all mentioned with some great discussion about how we use these apps. A great little Scan Stand named Foppidoo makes the scene and a conversation on Lift and Uber gets quite a chat as well. You can check out the Meet Me Accessibly book from Jonathan Mosen and learn about Zoom on the PC. Join the Job Insights crew and download some apps and give them a whirl. Hey, productivity rocks! We hope you enjoy this Job Insights episode and you can send your feedback and suggestions to the Job Insights team by email at JobInsights@BlindAbilities.com Follow the Job Insights team on twitter @JobInsightsVIP Job Insights is part of the Blind Abilities network. A big Thank You goes out to CheeChau for his beautiful music! Thank you for listening! You can follow us on Twitter @BlindAbilities On the web at www.BlindAbilities.com Send us an email Get the Free Blind Abilities App on the App Store.   Job Insights #4: Apps With Productivity in Mind for Education and in the Workplace. Transcript Provided [Music] Female voice: I feel like I'm getting a lot better education so yeah, I think, I think the online learning is an equalizer. Jeff: Job Insights, a podcast to help you carve out your career pathway and enhance the opportunities for gainful employment. Female Voice: But sometimes I require KNFB Reader when I have more than one page that I want to kind of read continuously. Jeff: Learn about resources for training education and employment opportunities. Female Voice: Blackboard, that is a learning management system and a lot of universities are using them as well for classes. So this particular app is available on Android, iOS, and PC, and Mac of course. Jeff: We will hear from people seeking careers, employment, from professionals in the educational field, teachers, and innovators in this ever-changing world of technology to help you navigate the employment world and give you Job Insights and enhance the opportunities to choose the career you want. Male Voice: Fopydo people sounds good and I actually at that time asked my son, and I, it was actually a play on the on Scooby-doo. Jeff: And you can find the Job Insights podcast on BlindAbilities.com, part of the Blind Abilities Network with hosts Serina Gilbert and myself Jeff Thompson, and you can contact us by email at JobInsights@BlindAbilities.com, leave us some feedback, or suggest some topics that we cover. On Twitter at Job Insights VIP, and check out the Job Insights support group on Facebook where you can learn, share, advise, and interact with the Job Insights community. [Music] Female Voice: Lift also released an update to their service dog policy saying that an allergy or fear of animals is not a valid reason to not pick up an individual with the service animal. Jeff: But hey it's a good learning tool, because it's just repetitious and pretty soon it just starts coming to you, mm-hmm, so I dug right in, when I saw they had flashcards I went Wow! [Music] Jeff: And now please welcome Serina Gilbert and Jeff Thompson with Job Insights. [Music] Jeff: Welcome to Job Insights and this week we're talking about apps, apps that you'll use in school, at the workplace, and these are productivity type of apps, and with me today of course is Serina Gilbert how are you doing? Serina: I'm good Jeff, how are you? Jeff: I'm just doing great and we got a guest today all the way from Maine. Hope Paulos, how are you Hope? Hope: I'm doing great, how are you? Jeff: I'm doing good, we're all doing good, so that's good. Today we're gonna talk about apps, you know some of these apps are mostly productivity type of things, stuff that you'll use to, you know get things done and that's, that's what we're, we're all about here on Job Insights. So Serina, last podcast you said you were holding out on us from what you're gonna tell us, is the cliffhanger over or are you gonna tell us? Serina: Oh we've got a little bit of a wait cuz we have to talk to Hope first, we have a guest. Jeff: How about you Hope, what do you got? Hope: I certainly don't have a cliffhanger. [Laughter] Serina: We set her up there Jeff! Jeff: yeah. Hope: Yeah you did! [Laughter] Jeff: So Hope, how's it going out and Maine? Hope: It's going well, the weather is nice finally, when I talked to you and Pete last time, it was March, and it was in the 20's, 20 degrees. Now we are in about the 60's, 70's, so I am absolutely loving it, birds are chirping, the guide dog is going for walks, he's enjoying it, Jeff: Is he bringing you with? Hope: Oh yeah of course! [Laughter] Jeff: That's great! Serina: But Jeff needs to know if you planted any Apple trees? Hope: No. Serina: Only PC trees? Hope: Only PC trees. [Laughter] Jeff: Oh that's the running joke isn't it? So when it comes to productivity type of apps, Hope what did you bring to the show today? Hope: Sure, so I have a couple of them. I don't use this particular one very much right now because I do work for Apple, and Apple has me on a strict schedule so I don't need this particular one, but for people who are freelancing, the name of the app is called Hours Tracker, it's a free app and basically it allows you to track your hours of course, hence the name, but it also allows you to track your earnings, and it will deduct the taxes as well. So it will tell you how much is deducting for taxes. So it's great for individuals who are freelancing. The second app that I have brought to the show is Blackboard. That is a Learning Management System and a lot of universities are using them as well for classes, so this particular app is available on Android, iOS, and PC, and Mac of course. This will allow you to do your classes online literally anywhere and actually a couple of the blindness organizations were working in tandem to get this particular app accessible. It's extremely accessible, there was only one thing that I commented on a couple weeks ago and I sent feedback in to the iOS developers and they fixed it. They're very very good about fixing issues that people might have. The other app that I brought, that I brought to the show is Learning Ally. This is an app that will allow you to download books and it's also good for individuals who are dyslexic and who have low vision because I believe it will allow you to magnify the print in the actual book so you can read along with the narrator which is quite helpful. That's more University as well, University-type app, Productivity app and of course the last app would be the Bookshare app. The Read2Go, this allows you if you have a membership to Bookshare, which I believe most students can get for free, it allows you to read the books on your phone be it Android or iOS. Jeff: Now on the Hours Tracker, is that what it's called? Hour Tracker? Hope: Hours Tracker yeah. Jeff: Hours Tracker. So when you're doing the setup, your presets, do you put in your wage, and then it just calculates it and are you able to output that anywhere, or is it just something you read? Hope: Absolutely, so this particular program allows you to put in the wage, and it allows you to put in whether or not taxes are withheld, so technically even if you were, you know not freelancing, if you working a job as an employee, a W2, you could use it as well. Basically it allows you to put in your breaks and your lunches and things like that, and it lets you know when to go on the break, and when to go to lunch, and when to clock out, and when to clock in. [Music] App Voice: Sample Job, 0.05H today, 0H button, clock out now or long-press for extras menu, button, next clock out now, button, cause now, button, break now button, break now, sample job 0 H on break 8:10 a.m., 0.02H button, end break or long press for extras menu button, end break. Hope: It also will let you know, like you can, you can set a reminder to have it automatically clock in when you get to work, and yes you can send it, I think it's a CSV file, or CV file, something like that, a database file, and it will put it in an Excel spreadsheet I think as well, so that you can show it to your employer. Jeff: That's kind of neat. Serina: That's pretty cool I like that. Hope: Yeah it's a it's a pretty neat app for sure. Jeff: Intuit the makers of QuickBooks and various tax applications has a program and it might be part of their bundle and I believe you can buy it separately, I believe it's called Self-Employed, but that sells on a monthly subscription for 7 to 8 dollars a month. Hope: Yeah this is free and I think, I'm trying to think if I paid for anything, I think I did just because I was freelancing at the time and I wanted them more, more, so it has a lite version and it has a full-featured version, but even the full-featured version wasn't some really really, you know cheap price. Jeff: A one-time fee? Hope: A one-time fee yeah. Jeff: That makes perfectly good sense, economically I can track that pretty good. [Laughter] [Music] Jeff: You can download Hours Tracker free from the App Store or the Google Play Store. Hourlys Tracker is free for up to 21 days of time entries and if you upgrade to the pro or professional, you get rid of all the ads, unlimited amount of entries that you can make, the only difference between the professional and the personal is you can have unlimited amount of jobs in the professional, and you can upgrade to the professional or the personal in the in-app option. The professional will run you $9.99 and the personal will run you $5.99. Once again, a one-time payment, I was really intrigued when I heard about Hours Tracker, I downloaded to my iPhone, and started using it right away, I named a job, I started the time, and when I was completed I stopped the time. I also had the option to input the time that I wanted it to start or input the time that I wanted to stop, otherwise you could do it in real time and that works out really nice. There's also an option that you can take notes and keep them with that job. I found that the accessibility on Hours Tracker on my iPhone was second to none, all the buttons were labeled and the intuitiveness was what I expected for when I have started logging the job, putting in the hours, getting out of the job, putting notes in, was just exactly how I expected it would work and it did work that way. Another small part of the accessibility, it lets you cancel a pop-up or dismiss the pop-up that comes up, and I really like that because if you've ever had a pop-up pop-up and not be able to get rid of it, that's not good. So after kicking around Hours Tracker on my iPhone for one job, I personally recommend this for anybody who is self-employed or someone who works on projects and just wants to have better records of the time they spend on their projects and jobs. [Music] Jeff: So on the Blackboard, I remember I have not experienced Blackboard yet, but I remember going to college and I was at the mercy of every professor that was experimenting by putting stuff on the web and accessing it through a link they give you, and if it was accessible you got lucky, so Blackboard is a collective effort to make it accessible for everyone. Hope: Absolutely, so it all depends on the type of class you're taking obviously right, if people don't know I'm going back to school to become a teacher of the blind and visually impaired and so all of the courses need to be accessible to me. So the professor's will tag their images so that I can know what's going on, their quizzes are all accessible, obviously the discussion boards are all accessible, and I use a combination of the two apps, so I use the combination of Blackboard and I use Learning ally to be able to do my classwork, and literally like I said, I can do it anywhere. With the phone if I have a Braille display and/or a Bluetooth keyboard I can do my homework on the beach or in the park you know, so literally anywhere and that's huge compared to when I was going back to school to get my undergrad degree, like you know 2009, that's when I graduated so it's, it's huge it's a huge step up. Serina: Yeah I remember using Blackboard when I was doing my master's degree which would have been gosh, probably around the same time as you are doing your undergrad, so I finished in 2010 and so, I don't know, 2007, 2008, somewhere around there's when I started it and they used Blackboard for everything. My program was pretty much 100% online, we didn't have the app back then, we just had the website, but even back then the website was pretty accessible. I rarely had any difficulties with it and I was going for the rehabilitation counseling so the professors were a little bit more cognizant of accessible media and documents and things like that. I loved using blackboard because it is easy to log on to, you know if I was on a break at work or whatever, or at home trying to get a discussion posted or something like that. Hope: Yeah it is really easy to use extremely easy to use. Jeff: Is that why you opted to do your classes online, not that you're on an island out off the shore of Maine, but..... [Laughter] Hope: Yeah I think, I think it's easier because I've done classes on site to, not having to do as my masters, but having to do with my undergrads degree. I find the digital world to be a lot more accessible, I just remember going to classes on site and didn't have a lot of input from the professor. The professor was teaching to a lecture hall full of I don't know, a hundred students, I just felt like I was kind of left out and wasn't getting all the notes that I needed to get, whereas here taking the classes online and using, again the combination of Blackboard and Learning Ally, I'm able to take the notes that I need, I'm able to contact my professors if I need to. I have peer to peer interaction as well. I feel like I'm getting a lot better education, so yeah I think, I think the online learning is an equalizer. Jeff: Mm-hmm. Hope: Of sorts. Jeff: Yeah that's great because you know everyone has to do what works for them and if you found a good way of doing it that's great, having those two apps makes it all accessible. Hope: For the most part yeah everything is accessible, even from registering for classes, I go to Missouri State University, so using Missouri State's website is accessible. It's just huge, it's what we're able to do as people who are blind and visually impaired with a digital world, it's absolutely huge. Jeff: So is that something you looked for when you were looking for an online course that they did use Blackboard? Hope: Not really, I didn't know what they used, I contacted them, I did ask them in the beginning when I was registering for the program what they used and I could have used Moodle, Moodle was another application, another learning management system that I'm familiar with and either one I would have been fine with. I looked online and and saw the collaboration between the two blindness organizations regarding Blackboard and I'm like okay this is going to be fine, this is gonna be great, I know it's gonna be accessible, I contacted my professors beforehand and gave them my accommodations and all that and said I need extra time and because it's a digital world they can input my time-and-a-half for quizzes and allow me to have that time and you know they can input that in Blackboard and all is good. I can't speak enough good things about accessibility and digital stuff. Jeff: So let's see, there's Learning Ally, we will put that in the show notes, we'll put Blackboard in the show, we'll put all these in the show notes so people can click on them and go right to the App Store or the Google Play Store and we'll have the links there, so back to the cliffhanger. [Laughter] Jeff: Hi Serina. Serina: And I thought of one like while we were sitting here, so even you'll be surprised Jeff. Jeff: Ooo. [Laughter] Serina: My absolute number one favorite app and I see it all over all of the groups like iPhone and iPad apps, and the assistive technology group, all of them, a seeing AI, I don't think it's any surprise there. That app allows me to be a lot less dependent on a human reader to just go through what's in my mailbox that I get at work. Now I can just kind of okay, yeah I need someone to finish reading that to me, or oh, this is just something that needs to go in the file, it's cut down on how much time I have to spend with somebody sitting at my desk with me going through stuff, and it's free, which is amazing to me because I remember reading gosh, I think it was like two years ago when Microsoft had their hackathon and they had released a video about seeing AI and they were showing a demo of it and I was like, well that's cool but it'll never come out and if it does it'll be super expensive. And then all of a sudden there's a link, and it's free, and it works, like amazingly and it, I can't thank Microsoft enough for that, that actually was a big surprise for me. Jeff: Yeah, you just open it up and boom, short text is reading. Serina: Yeah, from across the room right Jeff! [Laughter] Jeff: Yeah, that happened to me and, I shouldn't say it but I was that Orcam demonstration when they were having the little issues, and I was reading the wall that had their sign on it, so I was like wow, this is already talking, just out of the box, just turn it on and there it is. Male Voice: I use seeing AI all of the time to determine what's in my medicine cabinet, for documents you know I use seeing AI for short text. [Music] Female Voice: I use the document reader all the time, not gonna say it's as good as KNFB Reader because it's not. I did a test between reading my mail with it and with KNFB Reader and I found KNFB Reader to be far more stable, but I still like the app, I use it a lot, I'm glad that it's one of the tools in our toolbox. Female voice: For reading and stuff I used to go to KNFB Reader all the time but it just seems like Prizmo go and seeing AI is so much easier that I tend to go to them more. Male Voice: Seeing AI is my main go-to app and I use that, the short text channel mostly if I can't identify an item with that I will switch to the product channel if it has a barcode. A lot of the apps like [Inaudible] and Aipoly Vision and [inaudible], I've deleted most of those off of there because I can accomplish the same thing with seeing AI [Music] Male Voice: Jeffrey I see apps like Aipoly Vision, [Inaudible], Identifee, of course the KNFB Reader, I think seeing AI is becoming the main tool in the toolbox. Jeff: And you know, all the other channels that they have on their to four options but that's the one I use all the time because, you open it up it works. Serina: Yeah there's a handwriting one too that I've tried only a couple of times, but it surprisingly did recognize the handwriting enough for me to figure out at least what the note was generally about cuz sometimes my clients will stop in and I can't see them, and they'll leave a handwritten note at the front desk and obviously it's probably dependent on the individuals handwriting but I was at least able to get the name of the client and know, okay I'll just call them and see what they needed. Jeff: Hmm, well that's good. Serina: That one's in BETA I think. Jeff: Yeah you always wonder when they have a little feature that's in there and they tag the word BETA after it's like, you better use it now because it may not be there! Serina: Or it's like the disclaimer don't trust this feature. It might not work right! Jeff: Mm-hm try it on a doctor's prescription. [Laughter] Serina: Oh gosh. Jeff: That's the to test. Serina: This is totally not productive but when seeing AI first came out, we were playing with it in my office to see how old it thought everyone was. [Laughter] So all of my co-workers were like changing their hairstyles or putting on glasses or taking off glasses to try to trick it to make it think that they were younger. Jeff: That's a great use of state-funded money. [Laughter] Serina: Hey! Jeff: I know everyone's been doing that, it's kind of a novelty thing and that's like artificial intelligence to me when they're built into apps to me, it's like you know when you go to the carnival, you know, they'll guess your age and you win the whistle or something but you know, I'm not into the novelty stuff but that really does work. Serina: Hope, do you use seeing AI for any of your school work, or since it's mostly digital do you not have to use it a lot? Hope: Yeah I use it sometimes, I use it for work actually to find out whether or not my Mac, my work Mac is gonna turn on correctly. We have so many policies in place at Apple that sometimes voice-over doesn't turn on correctly and so I use either seeing AI or I also use AIRA for that, but most of the time I just grab my phone and you seeing AI. Speaking of the, or how old people were, I actually did that last weekend I think it was on my grandmother's 93rd birthday. I went up to her and took a picture of her and had seeing AI tell her how old she was, now again she's 93 right, so it said a 65 year old woman is smiling, or looks happy or something like that and she's like, wait, did it say 65? [Laughter] Hope: Shes like, I like that! So it made her day. Serina: Yeah. Jeff: I actually think for women they do have a built in algorithm that knocks off a couple years just to you know, keep the customers happy. Serina: No it added 10 years to mine, no matter what it says 10 years. Hope: Oh really. That's funny! [Laughter] Jeff: The algorithm breaker! Serina: Gosh. [Laughter] The other one that I use is obviously very similar to seeing AI but sometimes I require KNFB Reader when I have more than one page that I want to kind of read continuously. To my knowledge I don't know that you can scan multiple pages in seeing AI and if you can, somebody let me know, cuz I actually like it a little bit better. But sometimes when I'm working from home and I don't have access to my flatbed scanner but I need to read some printed like medical documents or things like that, I'll take out KNFB Reader and just scan a whole bunch of pages all at once and then read it, through it continuously, so that's very helpful, and then also you can save on KNFB Reader in their file system, and I think I saw on the latest update that now they can sync with Google Drive and Dropbox now to, so that's kind of a really cool feature that they've integrated in there now. Jeff: Yeah I like the KNFB Reader when I have like, I might have 10 pages of something to read and I don't want to take a picture of each of them so I put it on double sheet and then batch mode and when I turn the page it'll sense that, so you know you got the page turning then ch-ch-ch. KNFB Reader Voice: Manual picture button, automatic picture, picture from ste..., alert, please place your device on an empty document stand and align the camera with the aperture, okay, button, flash off, button, multi-page mode off, button, multi-page mode on. [Camera Sound Effect] Serina: Do you have a stand that you use with it? Jeff: Yeah I do, its the Fopydo and it was designed by Thomas Wardega, and here he is. Thomas: Fopydo sounds good, and I actually at that time asked my son, and it was actually a play on the on Scooby Doo. So basically this was designed from the ground up for people who are blind and visually impaired and along that process I learned to work with people who are blind so I went through a couple of revisions of the stand before I even started selling it just to make sure that people are happy with using it and that it fulfills whatever is needed from a scanning stand for people who are blind and visually impaired. [Camera Sound Effect] Jeff: It comes with a set of instructions that you can scan, you can put it together, once you got it together it just folds right up and you can put it in a suitcase, it takes up very little real estate. Serina: Oh I need one, and does it work with any phone or? Jeff: Well back when I talked with him he said it would handle, if you balanced it right, and iPad Mini, so I, I guess your your beast of a phone, your iPhone X may work. [Laughter] Serina: Yeah and put the link in the show notes cuz I've been, I thought, I had somebody looking for one before and they were like $50, I'm like mm-hmm, I'll just hold it up, you know. [Laughter] Jeff: Having the batch mode on the KNFB Reader really makes it viable product for someone that's in school that may have to be scanning a lot of pages. Serina: I definitely need one of those. Jeff: Yeah we'll put the link in the show notes and I believe he sells it on Amazon and if you have Amazon Prime, there you go, ten, twelve bucks. Serina: Primes getting expensive though it's like $120.00 starting this year. Hope: I think there's a discount for students. Serina: It's half off for students cuz I had that for a couple of years, and then they got smart and realized that I'm not a student anymore because my school let me keep my student email address for years, and I don't even think I have it anymore now. Now they make you verify by sending in like a schedule. Hope: Oh really? Serina: Yeah. Hope: Similar to Apple music, they do the same thing. Serina: Yeah, and I think Spotify does the same thing too. Hope: Yep. Serina: They got smart. Jeff: So we'll have to put the link in there for Amazon Prime half off for students, that's good news. Serina: Yeah that's it, and half off of Apple music and Spotify, not that those are, those could be productivity apps because if you need music to stay focused. Hope: Technically yeah, exactly, that works! Jeff: Or books. Hope: Yeah. Jeff: Amazon still sells books. Serina: Who orders books anymore? Jeff: Does anybody use Audible for books? Serina: I do not, I totally looked at it, but every time I looked at it I just can't, like I think it's thirteen ninety-nine a month for so many credits and one, the amount of credits you get for that amount is equal to downloading one book, and I haven't found that it's better than just using BARD, because they usually have especially if it's a best-seller what I want anyway. Jeff: Mm-hmm and the BARD app is totally accessible too. Serina: Yeah it's, it's a little old school sometimes, it has its glitches but it gets the job done. Hope: It can be yeah, exactly. Jeff: But it's, it's something that if you do send in a report and stuff like that they'll fix it? We can hope for the best right Hope? Hope: Yeah exactly, yeah sure, I'll write them, I'll give them a good report! Jeff: There you go. Hope: Sure. [Laughter] Serina: Well and it's hard because I know, I think that's run by the Library of Congress so that probably takes like an act of Congress just to get a glitch fixed you know. Jeff: Oh good one! Serina: I didn't mean it to be all cheesy but it's kind of funny. Jeff: Yeah it is, it is, it's nice when things work and you know, you were talking about seeing AI when you open it up short text just starts. I got an app called Drafts, just like the seeing AI, when you open it up it just works the short text is working, do you open it up and the cursors waiting up in the upper left-hand corner and you can start typing, you don't have to open up a new file. The neat thing is if you're in a meeting and you're taking notes and you can set it for certain increments of minutes that pass by and then next time like you open your phone, say it closed, it'll start a new file automatically. Serina: Well that's cool. Jeff: So you're not adding to your recipe you wrote two days ago that's still sitting there, do you want to save it, you don't know if you should save it, it automatically, so if you set it up for 10 minutes, if 10 minutes goes by, it saves it, and opens up a new one, just ready to go, so it's like a new sheet of scratch pad for you, can actually do some markups on it, yeah share it anywhere you want, it's really cool. I do the cut and paste and then just pop it into an email, bang! Serina: I like that, is that a free up too? Jeff: Yeah Drafts is free, I think it's called Drafts 5, there is a professional upgrade, a pro version and that is $20 a year or two dollars a month, but you can do a lot with just the Drafts app. I just love that because when you just want to take down a note, I don't like going into, I use pages because it syncs up with my apple orchard but when I'm at someplace where the meetings starting and I open up pages, you know it has to load up, it goes to the recent, and it seems like, you know all the gears have to spin around five times before anything happens, but this one opens up just bang, it's ready to go. Serina: I especially have that problem using the native Notes app on the iOS devices. Ever since they made it where you've got some notes on your iPhone, some on iCloud, some on Google Drive, or Dropbox or wherever, it's so hard for me to figure out where my notes are anymore that I just don't use that app anymore. Jeff: And that's my second app that I was going to talk about, it's the files app in iOS platform on the iPhone. Files, if you don't know where it went because it says, oh it's stored on the iCloud, or on the desktop in the iCloud, or on the iCloud Drive or wherever, and you start hunting around, but if you go to files and go to most recent, it'll check all those files, all those different drives, all the different places on your phone and everything, but if you go to recent and then if you click up on top you can go back and actually go specifically only to one area where you think it is, but if you put it on all, its checking all those drives that you have synced up with it and you can usually find it, so when I get lost for a second I just open up files and go to the most recent and there it is. Serina: That's a good tip, I didn't know that. I never really knew the point of the files app. Jeff: Yeah check it out, open it up and just see, and you'll see what you've been doing lately. Seirna: So I have one more that you do not know that is my favorite apps to use, any guesses? Jeff: Hope, what do you think it is? Hope: Hmmm, Uber, no it's not productivity, nevermind. [Laughter] Serina: Well technically it is, I do use Uber and Lyft a lot for work actually because I have to go as part of my job, I have to be at high schools and things like that and I am almost an exclusive Lyft user personally. Jeff: And why Lyft over Uber? Serina: I just have found just with my personal experience in the city that I live in that I've had better luck with Lyft drivers as far as friendliness and I have a service animal so, I've never been rejected on Uber, I'm actually, the only place I was was actually on Lyft. I found that the cars have been cleaner and the drivers just seem friendlier and with Uber I specifically am NOT a fan of the, if we wait more than two minutes, we're gonna charge you policy. Hope: Oh that's not good. Serina: Yeah that's a newer policy, maybe in the last six months and that policy just really bothers me especially when you're visually impaired. Drivers will say they're there and you're like where? You know, and if they're automatically gonna charge you, I think it's, I don't, I guess it's maybe like five dollars, if the driver has to wait I believe it's more than two minutes, like that's stressful, it's already nerve-racking like being like, hey I've got a service animal, are they gonna drive right past me, are they gonna pick me up, and then to know they're also gonna charge me an extra five bucks if I can't find them. And then they also tend to do the walk here and meet your driver thing. Jeff: Oh yeah. Serina: And I've never had that happen with Lyft no matter, I've been in downtown Denver and that's not happened before, but Uber will send you up a random parking lot or something to meet your driver. Hope: Oh wow! No thank you. Serina: Yeah so that's more why I'm Lyft exclusive, and then on the driver side I'm not quite sure how it breaks down, I don't remember how much the drivers get but I know with Uber it's not like a set percentage that the drivers get as far as, like I think it with Lyft the drivers get 75% of the fares With Uber, nobody really knows what percentage of the fare they get because they can, I've had drivers say like, yeah I've done rides Denver to you know, the DIA Airport and sometimes I get 60, sometimes I get a hundred, like there's no, I guess transparency with it. Jeff: Mmm-hm. Serina: And I can only speak to you know what I'm told, but I just personally feel better about using Lyft and for those who don't know, Lyft also released an update to their service dog policy saying that an allergy or a fear of animals is not a valid reason to not pick up an individual with a service animal and I feel like that's a very strong policy, and that's telling you where they stand on that very clearly, and I'm not, I'm not sure if Uber has come out as strong as they did. But that's all for a whole another podcast, you have to use all that when we talk about transportation. [Laughter] Jeff: No that's, that's good information because in my neck of the woods my wife uses Lyft, I use Uber and yet, I've been noticing that at certain peak times the price goes way up and other times it's low, and the waiting time changes, but you know, if it were two minutes, it's sometimes it's as low as thirty seven cents, but other times it's higher, you know, so things, I think it's the area you're in that really has, it makes a difference between which one you use, it is productivity because you got to get places and it's nice to know you can get there. Serina: And on time and on your own time. Jeff: Good. Serina: But that was a really good guess that brought on a whole another discussion, I liked it. [Laughter] Serina: But honestly we're on the app right now. Jeff: Ahh, zoom zoom. [Laughter] Serina: But part of my job is to train other people and to hold conference calls and things like that, and to my knowledge as far as like a true training platform where you can record and share your screen and things like that, I found that Zoom is the most accessible system out there that's also used by like companies all over the place. I know Skype is out there, but I don't know if Skype lets you like record the calls and things like that, I don't, like independently, not by pushing it through a different software but just right in the program recording it and having that access to be able to share your screen and still use your PowerPoint effectively and things like that. Jeff: Mm-hmm, and we're doing a neat thing for the first time here and we didn't know if we could do it but Hope sat beside us waiting patiently for us, but we figured it out and we're recording on two ends right now. Serina: Unless I pushed the wrong button again which is very possible. [Laughter] Jeff: Another cliffhanger, stay tuned next week when we find out! Serina: That will be our opener next week. Guess what I actually did it right! Jeff: You know, I'm starting to like Zoom because it's like I can't even tell you, you guys are here, because typically when we're using Skype in my headphones, I have this hiss when other people aren't talking so there's continuous hisses going on and then in the editing phase. So Zoom's really good and I really like the feature where you can send an email and people can just click on the link and they connect right up. Serina: Yep, it makes it really really easy. Hope: So a question I have, you mentioned sharing your screen, how accessible is that with voiceover? I heard through the grapevine that the voice-over will read actually what's on the screen. I don't know if it's true or not? Serina: So I haven't had a chance to test that because at work we don't use any Max, and then when I'm on a Zoom call and I am a participant I'm not usually on my iPhone. Hope: Right. Serina: So if you are leading the meeting and you're sharing your screen, it's actually pushing through a video of your screen, so it's almost like, I just imagine like a webcam watching your screen or whatever. Hope: Right, so I would assume it's not accessible then. Serine: Correct, but and I don't remember the keystroke, maybe Jeff knows, but I know in the latest major update to the OS on the Macs and iOS, you can have it essentially perform an OCR on the screen like live, with the software on the Mac, but I haven't had a chance to truly test that out just because I'm not usually on Apple devices when I'm participating. The way that I work around that, because I do have to present to individuals that use screen readers as well sometimes, is I usually will send my PowerPoint out ahead of time so that they can follow along while they're listening to the meeting, but then they also have access to the chat panel and everything else, it's just the visual of the video that they're not quite having access to but I, I just send it out ahead of time. Jeff: Yeah I haven't dug too deep into this, but Serina told me about Jonathan Mosen's book, and he did a full fledge book on using Zoom for calls and meetings and stuff like that, and yeah, I believe you can get that on Mosen's consulting on the website, and we'll put a link to that in the show notes. Serina: Yeah the book is called "Meet Me Accessibly" and it's very current based on, because I listen to maybe four or five chapters so far, and it sounds like he recorded it maybe in June of 17 and he does a really good job of letting you hear the screen reader and how it interacts with everything and going through all the different settings and explaining what exactly it is that they all do. Jeff: Yes he does he has quite a few books on Mosen's consulting so when you get there, just look around and he has tutorials on a lot of different topics, he's into the Mac, he's into, no not the Mac as much anymore, but he's into the PC, Microsoft. Serina: All these plugs Jeff, you're going to need to get some royalties! [Laughter] Jeff: Hopefully I get their name right and their website right. Another app that I have that I use and some people laugh at this, I use Dictionary Thesaurus Plus, and if you get the dictionary you can upgrade and you get, its a combination of Dictionary and Thesaurus Plus and I get the word of the day, and I'm just waiting to get that specific word to send Serina because she laughed at me when I talked about this app before. But it's just kind of neat because in there, they have flashcards and I'm on the bottom, they're not labeled but I figured out what two of them are, flashcards, so I took insight today just when I was skipping around there and I made a flashcard so on one side it says insight, on the other side it says the definition, so someone could actually go through there if they have a 10 word list that need to know or learn, like they're in school and they could actually input the word, get the dictionary, and there's also a button that says go to page, so if you want more definition you can just click on it, brings it right to the dictionary page and it's just kind of a neat resource if you're into that you know. If you want to know what words mean. Serina: Well that could you, I mean you just brought up a good point though, that could be a really good study aid for somebody if you're in a class where there's a lot of maybe theories, or specific definitions you need to know, you could load all those in there and while you're on the bus or whatever kind of be going through those, probably a more fun way than just reading the book. Jeff: Yeah and that's why I did it, like when I took Spanish, I made, I made note cards. I took these note cards and I brailled on one side, and then on the other side I had some other Braille, the translation in English to what it was, so I could just go through, and people were like joking with me like, Oh flashcards, it's like it's something for the kids or something, but hey, it's a good learning tool because it's just repetitious and pretty soon it just starts coming to you. Serina: Mmm-hmm. Jeff: So I dug right in when I saw they had flashcards, I went wow! So I really like that and it's, uh I think there's a fee for the upgrade, might be a few dollars but you can get download at all for free and test it and then in the in-app you can upgrade. Serina: Nice! Jeff: Well I think we got a handful of apps here that you know through experience we, we've been trying, we've been using and stuff. Some of these apps if you find them useful click on the show notes, download them, check them out, and if you have any feedback or suggestions on the apps that you want us to do on our next show, give us a jingle, drop us an email at JobInsights@blindabilities.com, on Twitter at Job Insights VIP, and uh, let us know what you think. Serina: What are we talking about next tiem John....John? Wow! Sorry! [Laughter] Jeff: Well Sarah! [Laughter] Jeff: What will our next one be on? Serina: I don't know, we have so many topics, normally I'm like, let's take this, let's let Hope pick the next topic, no pressure! Hope: No pressure yeah right mm-hmm! Let's do transportation since we kind of talked a little bit about it in this one, that would make sense. Serina: Getting to work. Hope: Yeah, absolutely. Serina: Perfect. Jeff: Getting to work, school, college. Hope: Yeah. Jeff: There you go Sarah! Serina: Stop it! [Laughter] Jeff: And if you want to contact Hope, she's on Twitter. Serina: If you want people to have it? Hope: Yeah my Twitter is Fidelco, capital F as in Foxtrot, I, D as in Delta, E, L, C, O, 4, the number four, ever. My email address is hopepaulos@gmail.com, so hopepaulos@gmail.com. Jeff: Well Hope thank you very much for coming on to Job Insights, it's really neat to have you and we're gonna have you back as soon as possible here for our next round table. Hope: Thank you so much Jeff and Serina, it was wonderful being here. I appreciate it! Serina: Yep, you have a great day! Hope: Thank you! Jeff: Do you know it's nearly midnight and you said have a great day? Serina: Well this will come out during the day. [Laughter] [Music] Jeff: It was a real pleasure having Hope Paulos join us on the show today, all the way from Maine, and next week when we're talking about transportation all the way from New York we'll have Joe De Niro, so stay tuned to the next episode of Job Insights. And a big shout-out to Chee Chau for his beautiful music and you can follow him on Twitter at lcheechau, as always thank you for listening, we hope you enjoyed, and until next time bye-bye [Multiple voices] When we share what we see through each other's eyes, We can then begin to bridge the Gap between the limited expectations and the realities of Blind Abilities. Jeff: For more podcast with the blindness perspective, check us out on the web at www.blindabilities.com, on twitter at BlindAbilities, download our app from the app store, Blind Abilities, that's two words, or send us an email at info@blindabilities.com, thanks for listening.  

Job Insights Episode 2 - Vocational Rehab 101: Demystifying the Myths and Planning For Employment Welcome to the second episode of  Job Insights with Serina Gilbert and Jef Thompson. We focus on Employment, Careers, enhancing opportunities and bringing you  the latest innovations from across the Vocational  Rehabilitation field to ensure your choices lead you down the career pathway that you want and succeed in gainful employment. From getting started with services, to assessments, Individual Plan for Employment (IPE) to gaining the skills to succeed and tools for success, Job Insights will be giving you tips and tricks to help your journey to employment and break down the barriers along the way. In Episode 2 of Job Insights Serina and Jeff break down Vocational Rehab services from eligibility, intake, personal adjustment training, training centers, and your responsibilities as well. Navigating the services may seem daunting at first but with a little bit of information and explanation you will soon fine your pathway to gainful and meaningful employment does not have to be a solo journey. Your Voc-Rehab team wants you to succeed and is their for you all the way.   Full Transcript Below   We hope you enjoy this Job Insights episode and you can send your feedback and suggestions to the Job Insights team by email at JobInsights@BlindAbilities.com Follow the Job Insights team on twitter @JobInsightsVIP Job Insights is part of the Blind Abilities network. A big Thank You goes out to CheeChau for his beautiful music!   Thank you for listening. You can follow us on Twitter @BlindAbilities On the web at www.BlindAbilities.com Send us an email Get the Free Blind Abilities App on the App Store.   Transcription:   Job Insights Episode 2 - Vocational Rehab 101: Demystifying the Myths and Planning For Employment   Serina: I know sometimes that a lot of individuals can be a little bit overwhelmed by applying for services with vocational rehabilitation and we'd like to hopefully demystify some of the myths and help you learn a little bit more about the process. Jeff: Job Insights, a podcast to help you carve out your career pathway and enhance the opportunities for gainful employment. Serina: Helping you with independent living skills, helping you get around town, helping you with cooking, money management, all those things that you need in order to be successful on a job. Jeff: Learn about resources for training, education, and employment opportunities, to see what best suits you to see if you're prepared to move on to the next step. Serina: Correct. Jeff: Thus it's an assessment. Serina: Correct, it helps the counselor out and it helps you out too. Jeff: We will hear from people seeking careers, employment from professionals in the educational field, teachers and innovators in this ever-changing world of technology to help you navigate the employment world and give you Job Insights, and enhance the opportunities to choose the career you want. Serina: We would hate to see you move forward with an employment goal that you thought you would absolutely love, only to find out maybe three months into the job that you obtain, that you really don't like it so much, so it helps us save a little bit of time and prepare you for realistic expectations on the job. Jeff: You can find the Job Insights podcast on BlindAbilities.com, part of the Blind Abilities Network, with host, Serina Gilbert and myself, Jeff Thompson. And you can contact us by email at jobinsights@blindabilities.com, leave us some feedback, or suggest some topics that we cover, you can also follow us on Twitter at Job Insights VIP, and check out the job inside support group on Facebook where you can learn, share, advise, and interact with the Job Insights community. [Music] Serina: Sometimes it might be getting more evaluations done with an orientation and mobility specialist, or a vision rehabilitation therapist to see what kind of personal adjustment training you might need. Jeff: And now please welcome Serina Gilbert and Jeff Thompson with Job Insights. Serina: Hi Jeff how are you? Jeff: I'm doing good how are you Serina? Serina: I'm doing great, how was your week? Jeff: It was good, it was good, the sun has come, spring is finally here. Serina: I don't know, I think you might get some more snow. It's not May yet. Jeff: We're just so glad to have it, I already got the patio furniture out, so I'm excited, I'm excited. Serina: You gonna be barbecuing for me? Jeff: We did that yesterday. Serina: Nice! Jeff: And I didn't even let you know did I? Serina: No you didn't even invite me, even though I'm, I don't even know how many miles away from you. [Laughter] Jeff: I'll waft the barbecue smell west. Serina: Send it over with an Amazon drone you know. Jeff: There we go. I wonder what that sound will be? Serina: They'll probably have like a special Amazon Prime sound for us all. Jeff: Oh yeah so it's recognizable. Serina: Everyone's jealous because we got something from Amazon. Jeff: The dogs will whine just a little bit, it is exciting though when a package comes. Serina: So I heard that we got a ton of positive feedback on our very first introductory episode to Job Insights? Jeff: Yes we did, it did not come by drone, but we got so much positive feedback, it's really exciting. Serina: I think that's great. I know today we were talking about vocational rehabilitation 101, and we'll chat a little bit about the process, what to expect. I know sometimes that a lot of individuals can be a little bit overwhelmed by applying for services with vocational rehabilitation and we'd like to hopefully demystify some of the myths and help you learn a little bit more about the process. And I know, as I talked about on the previous podcast, I was also a client of vocational rehabilitation and I believe you were as well right Jeff? Jeff: Yes I did, but unlike yourself Serina, my ophthalmologist did not send me there, so getting started with State Services was interesting. Serina: At least you got connected, that's that's the biggest part. Jeff: Mm-hmm. Serina why don't we start out by telling the listeners a little bit about what it takes to qualify for services, and if it's a federal or state standard that they go by. Serina: So it's a federal mandate, the eligibility requirements for vocational rehabilitation systems, in general, you have to have a documentable disability that poses some sort of barrier towards you entering into employment, keeping employment, or advancing in the current position that you have. You also have to be able to basically benefit from the services and that's a presumption that most agencies make. Jeff: A presumption? Serina: A presumption of eligibility. Jeff: Hmm? Serina: Another eligibility criteria that helps is, I believe if you receive SSI or SSDI then you are automatically eligible for vocational rehabilitation services. Jeff: So that's usually a process when you go there for services then you probably have to get it to go to a doctor so it's documented. Serina: Well, you can go to a doctor, but if you do not have documentation of your disability, vocational rehabilitation can actually either send out for the records, or send you for evaluations in order to obtain that documentation. Jeff: And that's just one of the steps of the intake process. Serina: So that first step is your intake appointment, which your counselor will go over a ton of different paperwork with you, you'll sign some releases of information for them to be able to talk to necessary individuals that might be working with you on the case, or to obtain medical records, or again refer you for those necessary evaluations, and from that time frame of the first date that you officially apply for services your counselor has up to 60 days to determine you are eligible for services. It can take that long depending on the counselors caseload, but sometimes it's faster, it just depends on the documentation that you already have, and what that counselors caseload looks like. Jeff: Is that the same for when agency is on order of a selection? Serina: Correct, they still have the same 60 days eligibility determination requirements, even if they do have a waitlist or order of selection. Jeff: So if they determine on the intake that you're in, then what's the next step? Serina: The next step is what's called the comprehensive assessment. What happens in this stage is you and your counselor are working together to identify a reasonable and suitable employment goal and also identify the necessary services that might be provided to you in order to help you achieve that employment goal. Sometimes this process could include you trying out work, doing what's called a situational assessment, and that would involve you going to a worksite and trying out the job to see if you like it, see that the duties are something that work well with your personality, in your disability, and also to help you with networking. Sometimes it might be getting more evaluations done with an orientation and mobility specialist, or a vision rehabilitation therapist to see what kind of personal adjustment training you might need. Jeff: Serina, personal adjustment training, can you break that down for our listeners? Serina: Definitely, personal adjustment training might include helping you with independent living skills, helping you get around town, helping you with cooking, money management, all those things that you need in order to be successful on a job. Jeff: And typically you could be sent to a blindness training center or a vendor of the agency? Serina: It depends on this state, some agencies do use the blindness centers, some do have in-house service providers that work specifically for DVR, or third-party vendors like you mentioned, and then I'm not sure about other states, but here in Colorado we do actually have a center based program that the vocational rehabilitation program staffs as well. Jeff: And in Minnesota were fortunate to have three adjustment to blindness training centers, Vision Loss Resource in Minneapolis, Blind Incorporated in Minneapolis, and in Duluth we have the Lighthouse for the Blind, plus State Services for the Blind, and various vendors that will provide specialized services as well. You mentioned doing a situational type of thing where you go to an employer and they do an evaluation, would that be set up with your employment specialist to see if this is an interest of theirs or to see if they like it? Serina: It can be set up through an employment specialist if the state that you work in is structured in that manner, sometimes it's your vocational rehabilitation counselor that's setting it up, and sometimes it can even be a third party vendor that you're working with that is providing that assessment service for us. Jeff: And this is all in an attempt to see what best suits you to see if you're prepared to move on to the next step. Serina: Correct. Jeff: Thus it's an assessment. Serina: Correct, it helps the counselor out and it helps you out too because we would hate to see you move forward with an employment goal that you thought you would absolutely love, only to find out maybe three months into the job that you obtained that you really don't like it so much, so it helps us save a little bit of time and prepare you for realistic expectations on the job. Jeff: So if you do need some soft skills, if you do need some technology skills, and it's determined that you should go to a blindness training center of some sorts, that might set you back six to nine months or whatever it takes right? Serina: That's correct, the blindness training centers are not super short programs, I think the shortest program that they have is the summer youth program for those that are still in either high school or college perhaps, and I believe that's even eight weeks. Jeff: And that's basically like a step program to bridge you into college preparedness? Serina: Correct. Jeff: And if you're planning on going just straight into the workforce then a training center might give you the skills that are needed to help gain employment. Serina: Correct, they work on every skill that you can possibly think of from independent transportation, orientation and mobility, independent living, I do believe they do some self-advocacy training, as well as working on basic social skills because you are living on campus with lots of other people and there's gonna be times when you disagree and you're gonna have to use those conflict resolution skills which will help you for sure once you start working. Jeff: I know we talked about transition aged students quite a bit, but there's also other people adults that have vision loss and they want to get their employment back and so these training centers do adult programs as well. Serina: And it can be quite helpful because I know last time we talked a little bit about an individual maybe who's coming in that has lost sight a little bit later in life but still really wants to work, that's a hard transition coming from having a driver's license and being able to independently transport yourself and work on a computer, to all of a sudden not having those skills anymore and abilities, and those centers and also other field based programs through vocational rehabilitation can certainly help with that transition, and also help you connect with different support groups and things like that so that you can start networking with individuals who've maybe been there as well. Jeff: However, before you move on to this step you must set up an individual plan or employment. Serina: That is correct, and all of the individualized plans for employment can only have services on it that the counselor and you agree are necessary and appropriate, and then they are always purchased at the least possible cost. So there might be times when there's certain products that you really really would like, but the counselor has to follow certain policies and purchase things at the lowest possible cost that is still appropriate for what you need the items for. Jeff: But typically the items will get you to your destination? Serina: Exactly, like as an example, there's lots of different types of computers now, we have our personal computers that maybe would run a screen reader or screen magnification software, and we have our Mac books that also have that same type of software built into it. Typically vocational rehabilitation is going to look at purchasing personal computers more so because we're looking down the road at employment and most employers still use personal computers, so it makes the most sense to get you used to using that type of a technology if you're going to be working in an office environment down the road. Jeff: And when you're saying personal computers, you're talking about Microsoft based platform. Serina: Correct, like a Windows computer. Jeff: Mm-hmm, Serina, can you tell us how flexible and IPE, individual plan for employment is? Serina: Yes, it's a plan, yes it's written on paper, but that doesn't mean that it can't be changed. So it's really important to communicate with your counselor if you feel that something's not going the way that you want it to go, or that you want to try something different, because that plan can definitely be amended, it's actually quite rare that we have the exact same plan from start to finish. Jeff: Okay someone goes through the process and they get their training, making progress, and you're checking the list and moving forward and now they're going to college and they are succeeding, according to the plan, and it comes time to where they start thinking about the job and job resumes, and job interviews, and all that, is there any services for that type of area? Serina: Definitely, it can be considered part of vocational counseling and guidance, which is on every single plan for employment across the country, I don't think there's any plans that don't have that, but it's also part of what we call job seeking skills training, which would be, you either working with your counselor, or perhaps a third party vendor to develop that resume, develop a general cover letter, and also start doing mock interviews, and begin talking about how do you want to handle the interview, how do you want to disclose your disability, if you want to do that at all, and how do you advocate for yourself during that interview. For example if you need an accommodation for testing and things like that as part of the interviewing process. Jeff: Now when it comes to disclosure, there's so many debates about it, and there I don't think there is any one answer, one fits all for this topic. Serina: Correct and I know we're probably gonna talk about that, maybe that'll be our next episode, because that's a hot topic of how do I disclose my disability, and what when and where, am I going to get discriminated against, things like that, I know people are very fearful of that, that definitely will warrant a full episode. Jeff: And that's a big one, so is writing your resume, because a resume is a work in progress, because if you're looking at one job, looking at a next job, it has to form to the job, the keywords and everything, so it's a good skill to have and a good thing to have a template to be able to adjust it for the job you're seeking. Serina: Exactly, we call it tailoring your resume because if you're not putting in specific keywords, a human's not even going to see your resume because there's so many electronic ways that they use, optical character recognition, and scanning the resume that you've submitted either online or even email, where they just scan to see specific keywords and skills and if it doesn't meet that, then it automatically gets denied. Jeff: Optical character recognition, it was such a gift and now it's working against us. Serina: Yep, sound familiar though right? Jeff: Mm-hmm, Serina with all your experiences, what tips would you have for someone who's receiving services and working with the counselor? Serina: So during the vocational rehabilitation process it's really important that you stay in close contact with your vocational rehabilitation counselor. There will be a lot of times when they're going to be asking for tons of paperwork that you might find cumbersome or even redundant. I promise you they wouldn't be asking you for it if they didn't need it because we get a lot of paperwork, if we didn't need it, we wouldn't be asking for it for you. So especially if you're on/in a plan for employment that includes training, every semester we're going to be looking at what grades did you get, what classes are you registering for next semester, do you need any books, did you apply for your federal financial aid? All of those things are things that are required before we can say yes we will pay for your tuition this semester at the school. If your counselor sends you an email asking for something, the quicker you reply the quicker things can move, and just know that sometimes things can't move overnight, if you call us and for specific piece of technology, we might not be able to get that for you immediately, especially if it's not included on your plan for employment, there might be some paperwork things that have to be done and ordering processes and things like that. So we ask that you're a little bit patient with us, but also the more you communicate with us, the better service provisions you will have. Jeff:And staying ahead of the game is the whole thing. Serina: Exactly. Jeff: Yeah, being on the State Rehab Council I get a lot of documents about this it's agencies and I see that one of the highest percentage of closures is because of lack of communications by the client back to the agency. Serina: That's probably actually pretty accurate because especially with my caseload I work with a lot of young adults, so they're still learning how to keep in touch so I do give them quite a few chances but it never fails that as soon as I close a case because I haven't heard from them despite multiple attempts on my end, about two weeks later is when they call me back and say, well I didn't know that you were gonna close my case. And obviously yes you can go back through the process and we can open it again but it's much more efficient even if you just send me a text message saying, everything's all right, I'm still out here, and that'll keep things going for you, but we have to remain efficient and show that the people that were working with are making progress in order to meet our goals and outcomes. Jeff: Serina, this is a lot of great information for someone who is going through vision loss, what advice would you have for someone who is seeking services from their division of vocational rehab or their State Services for the Blind? Serina: If you are a transitioning student and you're at least 15 years old and you are definitely starting to think about employment and what's next and actually some states that's as little as 14, but most states is about 15 or 16, but if you're starting to think about employment, I would say do not hesitate to contact your local vocational rehabilitation, talk to them about services, even if you call and you meet with them and it's not quite the right time, you are at least ahead of the game and knowing what to expect when you do decide that it's the right time for you. If you're an individual that's lost sight a little bit later in life or maybe have never heard of vocational rehabilitation and you're struggling with some vision difficulties, pick up the phone and give them a call, especially if you're looking into employment. All of our services at vocational rehabilitation are for sure geared towards employment now, so any services that we provide do you have to be tied to an employment goal with an eventual goal of being employed in the long-term. Jeff: You know Serina when I first lost my eyesight, I was skeptical you know, I was like worried about what's gonna happen and I didn't know, I didn't know where the blind were, I didn't know anything and I kind of felt like State Services, the agency was kind of a safety net, so I was gonna go out there and forge my own path and if I failed I would head towards the agency and get services, but now today, the more I know about it, it seems like it's a vehicle towards a future, and I've said this many times, but it is, it's it's, it's a resource, it's a place to go to learn about the pathways that you can take towards employment. Serina: And I'm curious what was your experience on the client side? I know you're on the state rehab Council and things like that, but do you remember being your very first experience when you first applied for services? Jeff: You know this is a great question for me because my experience was quite unique I think because when I first lost my eyesight I sold my pickup truck and I bought a brand new computer, I bought jaws and I started doing things the way I thought was best, I did things my own way. I did not understand that State Services for the Blind with an IPE, an individual plan for employment would have set up something of the nature to provide me the tools for me to succeed according to the plan and my goals, and once I understood that there were services as such, I then meticulously figured out what I would have to do for myself, and what they could do for me, and together we could reach the goals that we both set up. So I think part of the demystification of this is, they won't buy you everything, it's not a toy store, but they will assist you in succeeding, and those services do range from, you know, picking the right college that best suits your field, the technology that you'll need to succeed in college or in the workplace, there's so many services that are available there, you just have to make that call, like you said Serina, make that call and find out what they can do for you, and what you have to do as well. Serina: Well and that, someway just popped a thought into my head, I know that some individuals, most you know, most likely receive SSI or SSDI, some sort of Social Security benefits and it can be a little nerve-racking wondering, what if I start work and then it doesn't work out, how are my benefits impacted, there's lots of different rules related to social security and work. So I'm thinking that might be a really good idea for another future topic as well. Jeff: Absolutely, and when a person is going through vision loss it doesn't mean that they're totally educated on all the intricacies that are involved from your State Services, from your DVR, from the government, from Social Security, all these things have to be learned and dealt with and that's why talking with your counselor to learn, to educate yourself, so you can better be prepared for the opportunities that are ahead of you, and I think calling your State Services is one of the best things that a person can do, and that's why they call it a informed choice. Serina: Exactly, so many topics Jeff, we're never gonna end. [Laughter] Jeff: Hmm, that's job security huh? Serina: For sure, how insightful. [Laughter] Jeff: Speaking of something that never ends, I thought winter was the same way around here, but we got grass out back now and the trees are starting to bud, I could feel that a little apple trees with the little buds on them. Serina: That's awesome, you'll start sneezing pretty soon here. Jeff: Mm-hmm, I'm just glad I planted apple trees because I don't think they make PC trees. Serina: Ba dump bum[Imitating comedic snare drum] [trumoet sound effect] Well that concludes today's podcast, but next week we will be tackling that tough topic of disability disclosure, and the job interview. If you have questions you can email us at: Jeff: JobInsights@BlindAbilities.com. Serina: Or follow us on twitter: Jeff: at Job Insights VIP. Thank you CheeChau for your beautiful music, that's @LCheeChau on Twitter. [Music] We really hope you enjoyed this podcast, thanks for listening, and until next time bye-bye. [Music] [Multiple voices] When we share what we see through each other's eyes, we can then begin to bridge the gap between the limited expectations and realities of blind abilities. Jeff: For more podcasts with the blindness perspective check us out on the web at www.blindabilities.com, on Twitter at Blind Abilities, download our app from the app store, Blind Abilities, that is two words, or send us an email at info@blindabilities.com. Thanks for listening!

Korea Business Talk #1 July 16, 2011A collaborative project brought to you by  KoreaBusinessCentral.com & Koreabridge.net   Participants:  Jeff Lebow,  Joshua Davies, Daniel Lafontaine, Hyungsik Yoon, Adam H Cave, David Yoon, Don Southerton Subsribe to Korea Business TalkNext KBT Webcast: July 30 11amKSTNews Items & TopicsPyeongchang 2018 Olympics PyeongChang's Olympic bid chief credits teamwork, new marketing Rogge rules out N. Korea co-hosting Pyeongchang GamesChange in Unionization Laws Korean Multiple Labor Union Law Class Action Suit against AppleSouth Korean Lawyer Plans Class-Action Suit Agaist Apple Union attempt in Hyundai Alabama down the tubeHyundai Teaches UAW Best Factory Job Doesn't Need a Union Inflation/Interest Rates S. Korea to Encourage Fixed-Rate Loans to Curb Record Home Debt South Korea Consumer Prices Advance 4.4% Year on Year, More Than ForecastKoreans urged to abandon Naver in favor of Google Blogger Blasts Naver, Urges Korean to Go Google Lonestar Takeover of Korea Exchange Bank Lone Star, Hana Cut KEB Deal Price by 6%Chat Log[10:39] Jeff: Now we're streaming [10:47] Steven Bammel: Crystal clear [10:47] matt: audio excellent [10:48] Steven Bammel: It's not like your hair is going to be messed up... [10:50] Joshua Davies: Thanks Steven! [10:57] Steven Bammel: How about the match fixing in Korean soccer? [10:57] Steven Bammel: Japan's order to public servants not to ride Korean Airlines [10:58] Meebo Message: David is now known as David Yoon [10:58] David Yoon: Thank you for the invitation to this forum! [10:58] Steven Bammel: The typhoon on its way to Korea... [10:58] Steven Bammel: The continuous breakdowns of KTX lately [10:58] Jeff: David, would you like to join the Hangout? [10:58] Steven Bammel: I'm flipping through the paper... [10:59] Steven Bammel: No [10:59] Steven Bammel: I'll contact him now. [11:02] Steven Bammel: I don't know what the deal is with Don. [11:04] Steven Bammel: Jeff - I emailed you now. [11:12] Joshua Davies: Botique is a better way to say small [11:14] Steven Bammel: BTW, please shoot out the link to your social media networks right now... [11:14] Joshua Davies: all of mine is at joshuawdavies.com cheers! [11:35] Steven Bammel: I think Don's connection is coming and going... [11:39] Rahul: Rahul here; you're talking of a lot of topics (Dokdo, Apple) [11:39] Steven Bammel: Yes, it's a good discussion, isn't it? [11:39] Rahul: perhaps. ive just joined in. what's the agenda precisely? [11:40] Steven Bammel: Just a general discussion about the news. [11:40] Steven Bammel: Don Southerton is here to share about a specific business topic, but his connection is struggling. [11:43] Don C.: I think the comment about Chrome solving the problem might be true. Hangout has crashed Firefox and Safari on my Mac [11:47] Jeff: http://nielsfootman.com/blogger-slams-naver-urges-koreans-use-google/ [11:49] Rahul: Guys, please read my article titled "South Korea Beckons: Global Awareness and Cultural Sensitivity Strategies for Western Technical Communicators" at http://2brahulprabhakar.blogspot.com/2009/02/south-korea-beckons-global-awareness.html [11:57] Steven Bammel: Nice job! [12:00] tynessa: joshua you rock

Korea Business Talk #1 July 16, 2011A collaborative project brought to you by  KoreaBusinessCentral.com & Koreabridge.net   Participants:  Jeff Lebow,  Joshua Davies, Daniel Lafontaine, Hyungsik Yoon, Adam H Cave, David Yoon, Don Southerton Subsribe to Korea Business TalkNext KBT Webcast: July 30 11amKSTNews Items & TopicsPyeongchang 2018 Olympics PyeongChang's Olympic bid chief credits teamwork, new marketing Rogge rules out N. Korea co-hosting Pyeongchang GamesChange in Unionization Laws Korean Multiple Labor Union Law Class Action Suit against AppleSouth Korean Lawyer Plans Class-Action Suit Agaist Apple Union attempt in Hyundai Alabama down the tubeHyundai Teaches UAW Best Factory Job Doesn't Need a Union Inflation/Interest Rates S. Korea to Encourage Fixed-Rate Loans to Curb Record Home Debt South Korea Consumer Prices Advance 4.4% Year on Year, More Than ForecastKoreans urged to abandon Naver in favor of Google Blogger Blasts Naver, Urges Korean to Go Google Lonestar Takeover of Korea Exchange Bank Lone Star, Hana Cut KEB Deal Price by 6%Chat Log[10:39] Jeff: Now we're streaming [10:47] Steven Bammel: Crystal clear [10:47] matt: audio excellent [10:48] Steven Bammel: It's not like your hair is going to be messed up... [10:50] Joshua Davies: Thanks Steven! [10:57] Steven Bammel: How about the match fixing in Korean soccer? [10:57] Steven Bammel: Japan's order to public servants not to ride Korean Airlines [10:58] Meebo Message: David is now known as David Yoon [10:58] David Yoon: Thank you for the invitation to this forum! [10:58] Steven Bammel: The typhoon on its way to Korea... [10:58] Steven Bammel: The continuous breakdowns of KTX lately [10:58] Jeff: David, would you like to join the Hangout? [10:58] Steven Bammel: I'm flipping through the paper... [10:59] Steven Bammel: No [10:59] Steven Bammel: I'll contact him now. [11:02] Steven Bammel: I don't know what the deal is with Don. [11:04] Steven Bammel: Jeff - I emailed you now. [11:12] Joshua Davies: Botique is a better way to say small [11:14] Steven Bammel: BTW, please shoot out the link to your social media networks right now... [11:14] Joshua Davies: all of mine is at joshuawdavies.com cheers! [11:35] Steven Bammel: I think Don's connection is coming and going... [11:39] Rahul: Rahul here; you're talking of a lot of topics (Dokdo, Apple) [11:39] Steven Bammel: Yes, it's a good discussion, isn't it? [11:39] Rahul: perhaps. ive just joined in. what's the agenda precisely? [11:40] Steven Bammel: Just a general discussion about the news. [11:40] Steven Bammel: Don Southerton is here to share about a specific business topic, but his connection is struggling. [11:43] Don C.: I think the comment about Chrome solving the problem might be true. Hangout has crashed Firefox and Safari on my Mac [11:47] Jeff: http://nielsfootman.com/blogger-slams-naver-urges-koreans-use-google/ [11:49] Rahul: Guys, please read my article titled "South Korea Beckons: Global Awareness and Cultural Sensitivity Strategies for Western Technical Communicators" at http://2brahulprabhakar.blogspot.com/2009/02/south-korea-beckons-global-awareness.html [11:57] Steven Bammel: Nice job! [12:00] tynessa: joshua you rock