Podcasts about jeff how

How does one reach the pivotal moment that propels them into the next chapter of their life? For our guest today, that moment unfolded in a Starbucks, where Jeff Eamers stumbled upon a newspaper ad seeking volunteers for suicide prevention. Having battled his own demons for years, Jeff saw this not just as an opportunity, but as a calling.   In his past life, Jeff wore many hats—writer, director, producer, counselor—all while battling the tumultuous challenges of bipolar disorder. Now, he's found peace and purpose as a practicing psychotherapist and the voice behind the upcoming Three Moments in Time podcast. He lives in the California desert with his two dogs and 11 chickens.   Jeff's journey is one marked by resilience, vulnerability, and the unwavering determination to confront the darkest aspects of the human experience. But a word of caution: Jeff's story is unfiltered and may touch on themes of mental illness that could trigger some listeners.   We discussed:   The first hospitalization at 21 marked the onset of a series of mental health challenges for Jeff How a major film opportunity brought Jeff from the advertising world to Los Angeles Jeff reflects on the experience of navigating manic highs and depressive lows Why he transitioned from Hollywood to suicide prevention counseling How the sudden loss of his best friend served as a wake-up call  Why Jeff decided to pursue a new academic journey at 55  Jeff shares his understanding of the single most crucial factor in healing    Connect with Jeff Mental health in the high desert: A Yucca Valley man, animal rescue and the open landscape via Desert Sun    www.eamertherapy.com   

Dive into a thought-provoking discussion about the cancellation of Christmas celebrations in Bethlehem amidst the ongoing war between Israel and Hamas. Patrick shares his personal experiences in Bethlehem and sheds light on the dwindling Christian population in the city. Moving on to a listener question, the topic shifts to the theological concept of Mary as the Mediatrix of all graces. Patrick offers his insights on the issue, highlighting the importance of staying grounded in scriptural and apostolic traditions. Christmas display in Bethlehem is cancelled by Palestinian authorities 'in honor of Hamas “martyrs” (00:43) Tom - What do you think about 33-day consecration to Mary? Patrick recommends Tim Staples book “Behold Your Mother” Brooklyn (10-yearsold) - I believe in God but I don't get how we know how heaven is real? Bob - I am a high school football coach. What do you think of the 'Fellowship of Christian Athletes'? (27:08) George - Why do we call the host the Eucharist, which means 'thanksgiving'? Jeff - How can I increase the virtue of temperance? Mike - Fellowship of Christian Athletes: How would it play out if you reversed it so a Baptist was in a 'Catholic' sports organization?

Michael Swain is joined by Chip Brown and Jeff Howe to discuss the Kansas vs. Texas game on Saturday. The interview with Chip Brown begins around the 3:40 mark. The interview with Jeff How begins around the 21:30 mark. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Jeff Siegler is back with an incredibly thought-provoking episode about built places, communities, assumptions, and loneliness, and why designing our spaces and cities and towns to promote community is so important. This episode has it all: hot takes, hard truths, hard-to-discuss-but-mega-important ideas, and solutions to forge a better path forward.    (Please tell us you also read that last sentence like Bill Hader's SNL character Stefon on Weekend Update.)    About Jeff:   Jeff Siegler is a writer, speaker, and consultant concerned with the powerful role place plays in our lives. He is the founder of the civic pride consulting firm, Revitalize, or Die and co-founder of the organization Proud Places. After obtaining his Masters in Urban Planning from Virginia Commonwealth University, Jeff went to work on Main Street. First as a downtown manager, and later as the Ohio Main Street State Coordinator. His first book, “Your City is Sick" is scheduled to be released on September 1st.. Jeff and his wife Amber and their four kids call Pittsburgh home.     In this episode, we cover: Why we need to be intentional about our communities Why beauty actually isn't all that subjective How the “urban” and “rural” labels can contribute to divisiveness and blind spots How much our built environment affects our health A better way forward Links and Resources Mentioned: Your City is Sick Website (almost ready! Keep checking back!) YourCityisSick.com Ann Sussman's Cognitive Architecture  Ep. 99 with Jeff - How to Combat Apathy in Your Small Town: https://www.growingsmalltowns.org/post/episode99 

Can non-Catholics can be saved, can Catholics who fall away from the Church be saved, can ex-Catholics be saved, and how can I get through Christmas without arguing with my atheist family Mike - Do you think non-Catholics can be saved? Megan - Do I need to go to Mass again if I take the kids out for the Gospel? Frank - Can Catholics who fall away from the Church be saved? Jeff – How can I respond to my Muslim friend who thinks that the two accounts of Judas' death proves that Christianity is proven false. Michael – My family has left the church. Can they still be saved? Maria Christina – I see children being taken away for the Gospel during Mass. Patrick - Can you explain the Romans 5 verse “where sin abounds grace abounds the more?” Elizabeth - Some of my family are atheists. How can we get through the holidays without conflict?

Jeff Riseley is back in this 4th and final installment of his series. In this episode, Jeff and Jordan discuss the importance of mental health days and taking time off to support employees' mental health. They talk about how companies can improve in this area and how sellers can use these days to their advantage. PEAK PERFORMANCE HIGHLIGHTS:JEFF: Have a deep understanding of your “why”"You need that deep understanding that you have to have a really strong company vision and deep connection with your work to make work more meaningful. So the why behind why it's important to start showing up your best self and use this time to rest to come back, do some of these more challenging things to come back the next week when you're feeling better so that you can perform your best…”JEFF: How companies can treat their employees better"I think the biggest piece is like, we need to start building recovery metrics on a daily basis, we have to kind of start understanding the difference in terms of how stress works, because like we talked about earlier, our brain is not built to hunt, hunt, hunt then stop, it just isn't, there need to be recovery periods built in.” You can connect with Jeff and check out his work in the links below:Jeff Riseley | SalesHealthAlliance.com Don't miss out on the previous episodes of this amazing series with Jeff:Part 1: Stress and Anxiety Management For SellersPart 2: Be Child-Like In Your GratitudePart 3: Battling Mental Health Problems By Building Trust In The Organization If you're listening to the Peak Performance Selling Podcast, please subscribe, share, and send us your feedback.Jordan Benjamin | MyCoreOs.com | Podcast | Email | Twitter

Patrick answers listener questions about giving the sign of peace during Mass, what happened to Cane after Jesus rose, do Catholic's believe in the Mark of the Beast, and why do Catholics say they are “Catholic Christian” instead of just saying Catholic? Modesto – I see the fruit of the Holy Spirit in people who do not believe in Jesus. Why is that? Are they saved? William – Can we do the sign of peace during Mass? Enrico - What happened to Cane after Jesus rose. Was he forgiven? James - What is the Catholic view of the Mark of the Beast and what is the timeline of it? Mary Beth – Why do Catholics say they are “Catholic Christian” instead of just saying Catholic? Jeff – How do I convince my 13-year-old daughter that the Bible is trustworthy in regards to the creation of the world, the Eucharist and other Catholic things? Patrick recommends “Can you Trust the Bible” Francis Hogan

Hey Uncommon leaders, welcome back! I have a special, special guest for you today.Jeff Henderson is an entrepreneur, speaker, pastor, business leader and author.  His bestselling book Know What you're FOR, launched a movement in nonprofits around the world and  Jeff was recently named by Forbes Magazine as one of twenty speakers you shouldn't miss and you definitely should NOT miss this conversation I had with him!!The main topic of our conversation is Jeff's most recent book he released titled:  What To Do Next:  Taking your Best Step When Life Is Uncertain.  In this story, Jeff brings you right into his story alongside various career moves he has made.You'll need a pen and paper to take notes during this conversation.  Some of my favorite takeaways from Jeff:·        How you leave your current season is how you begin your next season·        Keep moving forward·        Never say you're never going to do something·        Don't fall in love with the idea, fall in love with the problem.I would love to give away a copy of What To Do Next to one lucky listener.  Drop me an email at john@growingchampions.net and tell me what YOUR favorite story was from the podcast.  I will draw one lucky winner from the entries and send you a copy of the book.You can stay in touch with Jeff at jeffhenderson.comThanks for listening in to this episode of the Uncommon Leader Podcast.  I am sure there was value in it for you and I am confident that you know someone who needs to hear this message as well, so PLEASE, hit the subscribe button, leave me a review, and share this podcast with someone else who needs to hear it!Until next time, Keep Moving Forward, Take the High Road and Go and Grow Champions!!

Summary: Louisa is joined by Jeff Allen, President of CubiCasa and Nikki Rinkus, Field Staff Appraiser at Clario Appraisal Network for the 6th episode of season 9 of The Propcast. The discussion kicks off with a description of CubiCasa's product, what it provides, and how it speeds up floorplan and appraisal processes. Louisa, Jeff, and Nikki chat about the trend of tech adoption and digitization in the industry and how CubiCasa has a strong foothold in 142 different countries. Jeff explains how their company differentiates itself from competitors and describes the PropTech scene in Finland. One of the main takeaways in this episode is that technology isn't eliminating any jobs, it's creating more efficiencies.  Resources: LMRE Global Recruitment and Search Consultancy LMRE YouTube Interviews Companies Mentioned: JRL Property Group CBRE  Apprao bowery Shout Outs: Jarmo Lumpus, Director Global Business Development at CubiCasa Key Insights From This Episode:  You can go completely digital, I walk into an appraisal inspection with just my phone, no pad of paper, just the phone and it does everything. - Nikki Technology isn't eliminating any jobs, it's creating more efficiencies. - Jeff Appraisers are naturally a sceptical bunch, we want to check and double-check everything so we are slow to adopt new technology. - Nikki PropTech touches something universal and is important to everybody in the world. - Jeff About Our Guests: Jeff Allen, President of CubiCasa   Jeff Allen serves as President of CubiCasa where he leads the company's overall strategy to digitize property data collection and unlock actionable data insights for homeowners and mortgage professionals alike. In addition, Jeff serves as Executive Vice President, Innovation Labs for Clear Capital, the real estate valuation technology company that acquired CubiCasa in 2021. In this capacity, Jeff spearheads Clear Capital's in-house innovation hub, which focuses on the research, testing, and development of new products and solutions. Jeff has held a wide range of leadership roles throughout his career, including Vice President of Operations at CoreLogic, Chief Operating Officer at Rels, Director of Research Services at 10k Researching and Marketing, as well as Research Manager at Minneapolis Area Association of REALTORS®.    About CubiCasa CubiCasa is a PropTech company focused on providing value for real estate professionals through the digitization of properties. Headquartered in Oulu, Finland, CubiCasa is the global market leader in mobile indoor scanning and is known for its fast and easy-to-use floor plan app on the App Store and Google Play Store. CubiCasa's technology is used in 144 different countries and has helped create over 1 million floor plans to date. CubiCasa provides technology for the real estate, appraisal, and mortgage industries and is on a mission to digitise real estate.   Nikki Rinkus: Nikki Rinkus has been appraising real estate in the Chicagoland market for 30 years and also holds her sales broker license. Over those 30 years, she has experienced unprecedented technological shifts in both arenas and has always been an early adapter. Some of her most interesting side jobs over the years include international courier and DJ.    About Clario Appraisal Network Clario Appraisal Network is a full-service residential real estate appraisal firm. Composed of highly-experienced appraisers, we provide the highest quality services across the nation. We specialise in real estate valuations for the mortgage lending and financial services industries.   About Our Host Louisa Dickins Louisa is the co-founder of LMRE, which has rapidly become the market leading global PropTech recruitment platform and search consultancy with operations across North America, United Kingdom, Europe and Asia-Pacific. To promote the industry she is so passionate about, Louisa set up the Global podcast ‘The Propcast' where she hosts and invites guests from the built environment space to join her in conversation about innovation. About LMRE LMRE is globally recognised for leading the way in Real Estate Tech & Innovation talent management. From the outset our vision was to become a global provider of the very best strategic talent to the most innovative organisations in PropTech, ConTech, Smart Buildings, ESG, Sustainability and Strategic Consulting. At LMRE we are fully committed at all times to exceed the expectations of our candidates and clients by providing the very best advice and by unlocking exclusive opportunities across our global network in the UK, Europe, North America and Asia-Pacific. Timestamps: [03:20] Jeff: Can you talk us through your journey to the PropTech space in CubiCasa?  I've been involved in either real estate or mortgage appraisal, for my entire career.  Before I came to CubiCasa, I was running the R&D Innovation Lab at Clear Capital. We were trying to find something that would enable anyone to collect accurate property data and floor plan measurements without any training and we found CubiCasa and made the acquisition.  It's something that enables anybody with a smartphone to do a five-minute walk-through scan of a property, and then receive back accurate and detailed floor plans.  [05:25] Nikki: How did you meet Jeff?  I had a long road to Clario, but about six years ago, I started working there and they are a subsidiary of Clear Capital and Jeff recruited me for one of his pilot programs.  Before CubiCasa we had an app that allowed us to walk through a property to get data points and someone at Clear Capital sent back information.  CubiCasa saves a lot of time for the appraiser so we could focus more on the valuation part and less on the data entry part.  [06:45] Jeff: Can you go into a bit more detail about CubiCasa's product? The product works on a smartphone, a user can download the app and use it without training.  You just walk through the property room by room, pointing your smartphone down, where the walls meet the floor then the data that's collected and captured is processed through our computer vision and proprietary. Ultimately then it is reviewed by a human to make sure that we produce an accurate end floorplan result and then delivered back to the user.  Floor plan in a lot of different versions and property data as well, bed and bath counts and square footage.  [08:40] Nikki: How long would it usually take to do something like that without CubiCasa? It varies between ranch style or cottage style houses at one level, rectangular properties, complex properties and multi-story properties.  Overall it can cut it by ¾ of the time and accuracy is much better.   [11:15] Jeff: CubiCasa is in over 142 countries, what trends have you seen in terms of tech adoption and are there any countries you are looking to launch in? What's cool about CubiCasa is that the technology scales to different use cases and many different geographies. It's really a general-purpose technology that fits a lot of different use cases so it has organically grown. [14:00] Jeff: The debate that is going on is that tech is taking away people's jobs but CubiCasa helps people do their job as well as create new ones, would you say so?  Technology isn't eliminating any jobs, it's creating more efficiencies.   A lot of people spend a lot of time drawing floor plans and it is easy to get it wrong when doing it by hand.  [15:00] Nikki: What are you seeing in terms of people being hesitant to adopt new methods?  With a lot of appraisers, there's a level of trust involved and appraisers are slow to come to it. What I would say to appraisers is; “Do you want to go back to the cut and paste era of appraisals?” [17:55] Jeff: How does CubiCasa differentiate itself from its competitors in an ever-growing market? The major things that set us apart are ease of capture, and getting the data and information.  The most common way to get floor plans for people is either to hand draw or a virtual tour and you're going to be scanning the house with special hardware, it's going to take you an hour and you're going to need specialised training. It's not scalable or democratising. With our product, all you need is a smartphone and you are doing a 5-minute scan with no training. [21:15] Jeff: Could you tell the audience more about the Finland technology ecosystem?  Before finding CubiCasa, I didn't know there was a PropTech scene in Finland.  There is a huge pipeline of talent and great technical talent coming out of the universities.  The Finnish PropTech scene is growing pretty significantly. [22:40] The ‘LMRE' part, Louisa asks the guests to talk about;  L – Touch on the main lessons you have learnt throughout your career. Nikki: Just be adaptable. Jeff: Be nice to people and good things will happen, M - Please give a mention to anyone / product / service. Nikki: CubiCasa Jeff: Nikki for testing out crazy stuff for us. R – What has been the most rewarding aspect of working in PropTech? Nikki: Just being able to use the technology in the appraisal space and see how it's made the process more reliable and streamlined. Jeff:  PropTech touches something universal and important to everybody in the world.   E - What are you excited about in the future of PropTech? Nikki: To see the appraisal forms go from the static format that we've had for the last 19 years to a more logic-based cloud environment. Jeff: AI and computer vision are already making an impact, but it's just getting started.  Sponsors Launch Your Own Podcast Kopus.com is the leading podcast production and strategic content company for brands, organisations, institutions, individuals, and entrepreneurs. Our team sets you up with the right strategy, equipment, training, and guidance and content to ensure you sound amazing while speaking to your niche audience and networking with your perfect clients. Get in touch jason@kopus.com

On this episode... - Going over the February 2022 Goals - The Vault CT returns - Road-trips with Jake and Jeff - How they took the leap on a business

On this episode of the Japan Station podcast, we're talking about depictions of Japan and Japanese people on popular American TV shows with Dr. Alisa Freedman. About Dr. Alisa Freedman Alisa Freedman is a Professor of Japanese Literature, Cultural Studies, and Gender at the University of Oregon and the Editor-in-Chief of the U.S.–Japan Women's Journal. Her books include Tokyo in Transit: Japanese Culture on the Rails and Road, an annotated translation of Kawabata Yasunari's The Scarlet Gang of Asakusa, and co-edited volumes on Modern Girls on the Go: Gender, Mobility, and Labor in Japan, and Introducing Japanese Popular Culture. She has published widely on Japanese modernism, Tokyo studies, youth culture, gender, television, humor as social critique, teaching pedagogies, and digital media, along with publishing translations of Japanese literature. Alisa has been nationally recognized for excellence in mentoring and enjoys presenting at cultural events like anime cons and Japan festivals. Topics Discussed About Japan on American TV: Screaming Samurai Join Anime Clubs in the Land of the Lost About depictions of Japan and Japanese people in American TV shows The taboo regarding the depiction of the Japanese royal family in Japanese media Self-censorship in Japan and Japanese media How Japanese mainstream media stays away from political topics About the Japanese version of SNL that aired in 2011 The variety show Pink Lady (and Jeff) How trends and tropes have shaped the depictions of Japan and Japanese people on American TV shows How Marie Kondo presents herself as both "Japanese" and "American" About Queer Eye: We're in Japan! About the SNL skit JPop America Fun Time Now The influence of Japanese pop culture on the generation that grew up consuming it About Big Bird in Japan  And much more! Support on Patreon & Ko-fi If you enjoy Japan Station and want to ensure that we're able to produce more episodes, then please consider becoming a patron on Patreon.com. For a minimum pledge of $1 a month you'll get early access to all JapanKyo podcasts, bonus content, and more. And for $3 a month, you'll get access to Japanese Plus Alpha, a podcast produced by me (Tony Vega) that focuses on the Japanese language and all of its fascinating quirks. Also, all pledges get a shout-out on the show and my undying gratitude. Thank you in advance! Support Japan Station on Patreon You can also do a one time donation via Ko-fi. Support us on Ko-fi Links, Videos, Etc. To purchase a copy of X while at the same time supporting the show, please use the Amazon affiliate link below. Japan on American TV: Screaming Samurai Join Anime Clubs in the Land of the Lost   Use the link below to check out the latest JapanKyo Docs video. Emus in Tokyo: Inside the Life of a Japanese Emu Rancher Don't forget to listen to the latest episode of Ichimon Japan. What is that sound? (Funny/Wacky Japanese Onomatopoeia) | Ichimon Japan 55 If you would like to support the show by picking up some merchandise, make sure to visit KimitoDesigns.com. KimitoDesigns.com Special Thanks Opening/Closing song: Oedo Controller (大江戸コントローラー) by Yunomi featuring Toriena (Used with permission from Yunomi) To listen to more of Yunomi's music, check out his Soundcloud page or YouTube channel. Japan Station cover art: Provided by Erik R. Featured image: Courtesy of Alisa Freedman Follow Japankyo on Social Media Facebook (@JapankyoNews) Twitter (@JapankyoNews) Instagram (@JapanKyoNews) Full Show Notes Get the full version of show notes at https://www.japankyo.com/category/podcasts/japanstation/

00:00:06.600 --> 00:00:24.810 Paul Casey: it's a great day to grow forward thanks for joining me today's episode with jet Richardson he's executive director of habitat for humanity here in the tri cities and a fun fact about jet well, he said he's allowed sneezer jet tell us more about that. 2 00:00:26.970 --> 00:00:28.530 Jet's iPhone: I don't know if there's much. 3 00:00:28.560 --> 00:00:30.180 Jet's iPhone: More to actually tell you. 4 00:00:31.920 --> 00:00:33.870 Paul Casey: You could show no no don't do that. 5 00:00:34.440 --> 00:00:34.890 People. 6 00:00:36.390 --> 00:00:42.570 Jet's iPhone: People off often quite surprised and it's a, it is a family trait, so I will. 7 00:00:43.830 --> 00:00:48.120 Jet's iPhone: throw my turn my dad under the bus here a little bit and I get it from him. 8 00:00:49.890 --> 00:00:50.160 Paul Casey: wow. 9 00:00:52.380 --> 00:00:57.480 Paul Casey: Alright well we'll dive in with jet after checking in with our tries to the influencer sponsor. 10 00:00:58.950 --> 00:01:02.670 Paul Casey: Thank you for your support of leadership development in the tri cities. 11 00:01:03.420 --> 00:01:19.710 Paul Casey: Well, welcome Jeff I was privileged to meet you way back in 1995 where I was an elementary principal at liberty Christian school, it was even before that was the vice principal the first year I moved and I think you were in seventh grade so it's been a while. 12 00:01:21.420 --> 00:01:23.580 Jet's iPhone: That was a long time ago, yes yeah. 13 00:01:24.420 --> 00:01:25.590 Paul Casey: Look at you now. 14 00:01:27.330 --> 00:01:28.890 Jet's iPhone: i'm not much taller but. 15 00:01:30.990 --> 00:01:36.330 Jet's iPhone: I think I have done some things that are a bit different or unexpected since then. 16 00:01:37.110 --> 00:01:41.910 Paul Casey: Yes, well help our tri city influencers get to know you tell us about. 17 00:01:43.260 --> 00:01:48.600 Paul Casey: What habitat does tell us what you do for 80% of your day all that stuff. 18 00:01:49.470 --> 00:01:50.550 Jet's iPhone: yeah so. 19 00:01:51.600 --> 00:02:03.510 Jet's iPhone: habitat for humanity tri county partners is the official name of our local affiliate here we're located primarily in tri cities, but we do work. 20 00:02:04.020 --> 00:02:15.840 Jet's iPhone: And walla walla as well and and, quite frankly, our geographical service area sorry geographic servicer is all of Benton Franklin and walla walla counties. 21 00:02:16.770 --> 00:02:32.370 Jet's iPhone: So we have a lot of work ahead of us, currently we've been in the tri cities we've been operating as an affiliate for 26 years but we've only really worked and Pascoe ritual and and kennewick and walla walla. 22 00:02:33.960 --> 00:02:45.090 Jet's iPhone: We would love to expand that influence to the outer parts of our counties someday and looking forward to figuring out how to do that habitats mission. 23 00:02:45.900 --> 00:03:04.350 Jet's iPhone: is seeking to put god's love into action habitat for humanity brings people together to build homes communities and hope and our vision is that everyone in the tri county area would have a decent place to call home. 24 00:03:05.550 --> 00:03:06.360 Jet's iPhone: We don't. 25 00:03:07.500 --> 00:03:18.540 Jet's iPhone: We don't give homes away people partner with us to purchase the homes, we provide every discount that we can to make them as affordable as possible. 26 00:03:19.770 --> 00:03:22.380 Jet's iPhone: For low income families in our in our area. 27 00:03:23.940 --> 00:03:29.700 Jet's iPhone: But that's the mission and that's the vision that we are trying to carry out here locally. 28 00:03:30.780 --> 00:03:40.200 Paul Casey: What I love about the vision is it's so big you know I think big visions should be big that it makes it just draws us for like that everyone has. 29 00:03:40.590 --> 00:03:49.320 Paul Casey: A great place to live right and it's just like man, if you worked every second of every day, it would still be this big vision that you'd still be shooting for so. 30 00:03:49.380 --> 00:03:53.670 Jet's iPhone: We hope we certainly hope to work ourselves out of a job yeah. 31 00:03:53.850 --> 00:03:54.240 Right. 32 00:03:55.440 --> 00:04:07.530 Jet's iPhone: And, but what's the point in doing this, if you still have people who are homeless or housing insecure in some way or another, we there's still a lot of work to do. 33 00:04:08.490 --> 00:04:14.670 Paul Casey: Here here so you're an executive director, what do you spend 80% of your day doing. 34 00:04:15.960 --> 00:04:20.850 Jet's iPhone: Oh, I I probably spend 80% of my day asking other people how to be an executive director. 35 00:04:24.180 --> 00:04:25.470 Jet's iPhone: it's a very humble answer. 36 00:04:27.210 --> 00:04:43.470 Jet's iPhone: I, I will say I I probably spend 80% of my day learning, though in some way, shape or form i'm I feel like i'm constantly learning or re educating myself on what I think are good practices for urban planning housing. 37 00:04:45.210 --> 00:04:57.870 Jet's iPhone: i'm learning, who are people and other organizations that habitat needs to somehow partner with in the Community, or at the State level or even at the federal level. 38 00:04:59.220 --> 00:05:03.000 Jet's iPhone: Constantly researching grant opportunities. 39 00:05:04.560 --> 00:05:05.850 Jet's iPhone: opportunities that would. 40 00:05:07.290 --> 00:05:20.130 Jet's iPhone: increase the affordable ness of homes that we're that we're doing and and then asking people to be a part of that so yeah i'd say 80% of my job is is is learning how to do it. 41 00:05:21.180 --> 00:05:22.440 Jet's iPhone: in some way, shape or form. 42 00:05:22.710 --> 00:05:26.160 Paul Casey: Great answer yes and so why do you love what you do. 43 00:05:27.870 --> 00:05:28.350 Jet's iPhone: hmm. 44 00:05:29.610 --> 00:05:30.090 Jet's iPhone: I think I. 45 00:05:31.230 --> 00:05:39.870 Jet's iPhone: I want to I you know, I was looking at that question earlier and I think it's a real privilege to love what you do. 46 00:05:41.220 --> 00:05:53.460 Jet's iPhone: I don't think it's something that everybody experiences or is experiencing, currently, especially in this in this current era where job job security. 47 00:05:54.570 --> 00:05:56.040 Jet's iPhone: and employment has been. 48 00:05:57.150 --> 00:06:00.510 Jet's iPhone: Just all over the map, so to say so. 49 00:06:01.860 --> 00:06:08.460 Jet's iPhone: To love what you do I think it's a huge privilege and to have something to do it's a huge. 50 00:06:09.690 --> 00:06:10.770 Jet's iPhone: blessing in itself. 51 00:06:12.240 --> 00:06:12.720 Jet's iPhone: So. 52 00:06:14.130 --> 00:06:17.700 Jet's iPhone: So I, as I was thinking about that you know why really. 53 00:06:19.020 --> 00:06:20.760 Jet's iPhone: kind of stands out because. 54 00:06:23.790 --> 00:06:25.530 Jet's iPhone: I love, what I do. 55 00:06:27.810 --> 00:06:34.140 Jet's iPhone: Because it's something that I think I find just inspiring and motivating. 56 00:06:35.280 --> 00:06:42.720 Jet's iPhone: To see people come together to be a part of building a better community. 57 00:06:44.160 --> 00:06:54.660 Jet's iPhone: And at the same time working for an organization like habitat it's a triple win you know it's it's it's a win for. 58 00:06:56.130 --> 00:07:09.180 Jet's iPhone: The people that we serve who want to get out of subsidized Rentals and into affordable home ownership create wealth and opportunity for their children and their grandchildren. 59 00:07:10.050 --> 00:07:28.800 Jet's iPhone: it's a win for the communities that we are constantly evaluating and looking for ways to make sure that everybody moves forward and upward and it's a win, for I think myself just to be a part of that and to be a part of the staff. 60 00:07:30.060 --> 00:07:37.080 Jet's iPhone: And people who feel similarly similarly passionate about the issue of housing. 61 00:07:38.490 --> 00:07:44.850 Paul Casey: yeah I can hear your gratefulness coming through in that answer I can hear your passion for the mission which is. 62 00:07:45.480 --> 00:07:55.080 Paul Casey: What you want from any nonprofit executive leader, because it just spills out into like I said, the staff and the families and the Community so love that. 63 00:07:55.650 --> 00:08:06.630 Paul Casey: So Jen and your journey to be where you are today what have you learned from previous bosses supervisors that could be good or bad that you keep in mind today, while you lead. 64 00:08:08.820 --> 00:08:16.080 Jet's iPhone: that's a really good question um i've had my share of bosses over the years. 65 00:08:17.490 --> 00:08:21.810 Jet's iPhone: And i've had like you said, good and bad ones, I think we all have. 66 00:08:23.520 --> 00:08:34.170 Jet's iPhone: Even if, even if they weren't explicitly bad bosses you've had bosses that weren't as great as others you've had favorite people to work for and people that you just work with you know. 67 00:08:37.050 --> 00:08:46.230 Jet's iPhone: As I think about what the good bosses or the bosses in my life that I have the most respect for and. 68 00:08:47.490 --> 00:09:05.190 Jet's iPhone: How I feel that I have taken that experience and to my own managerial role is recognizing that their success sorry the people that work for me that report to me their success. 69 00:09:06.600 --> 00:09:20.250 Jet's iPhone: is not a zero sum game their success is not mean my failure if they say that they if they succeed and move away or move on to bigger and better things. 70 00:09:20.700 --> 00:09:30.750 Jet's iPhone: outside of the role or the job that they have right now it's not a failure on my part, that is, that is awesome to be able to cultivate. 71 00:09:31.650 --> 00:09:39.900 Jet's iPhone: relationships with people and develop skills and other people that they can then take on to more opportunities for themselves bigger and better. 72 00:09:40.290 --> 00:09:51.690 Jet's iPhone: and exciting things for them that's a huge success that's something that not all my bosses felt, you know they they felt some of my bosses previously felt like. 73 00:09:52.560 --> 00:10:02.610 Jet's iPhone: They needed to keep me in a role, because it was good, it looks good for them, but they didn't want to see much growth, they just wanted to see that. 74 00:10:02.940 --> 00:10:04.590 Jet's iPhone: job was getting done. 75 00:10:05.130 --> 00:10:11.910 Jet's iPhone: And then they went on themselves to bigger and better things and just kind of leave you behind and so. 76 00:10:13.230 --> 00:10:15.720 Jet's iPhone: What I what i've taken away was that. 77 00:10:16.740 --> 00:10:21.840 Jet's iPhone: I want to see the people that work for me achieve more than me. 78 00:10:23.820 --> 00:10:26.460 Jet's iPhone: Because that's that's. 79 00:10:27.630 --> 00:10:29.340 Jet's iPhone: that's success that I can. 80 00:10:30.570 --> 00:10:36.420 Jet's iPhone: I can really be proud of, so I think looking for opportunities with people. 81 00:10:38.250 --> 00:10:44.910 Jet's iPhone: To try new things to develop skills really understand what motivates them and what. 82 00:10:46.050 --> 00:10:55.170 Jet's iPhone: Their goals are so that I can, if I can play a part in helping them achieve that I think that's it's just very rewarding. 83 00:10:56.490 --> 00:10:57.030 Jet's iPhone: and 84 00:10:58.050 --> 00:11:13.740 Jet's iPhone: i'm surprised, as I look back over my bosses that that that that is rare doesn't wasn't always the case, but I had a few and honestly I believe that's partly why I felt the confidence to go after this role. 85 00:11:14.910 --> 00:11:22.050 Jet's iPhone: And to be doing what i'm doing now is because they cultivated that success in me. 86 00:11:23.250 --> 00:11:30.780 Paul Casey: Well, so good yeah I don't think people should be in a leadership role my personal opinion is shouldn't be in a leadership role if they don't have. 87 00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:38.910 Paul Casey: The growth and development of their people as one of their primary functions, I really believe that we have to help our people get better. 88 00:11:39.210 --> 00:11:44.760 Paul Casey: So you're right when that day comes when they move on to some other green pasture maybe it's greener. 89 00:11:45.330 --> 00:11:58.680 Paul Casey: That we we have set them up for success and we smile and cheer them on as they leave because they have become better under our watch, then they came in and it wasn't just a stepping stone. 90 00:11:59.040 --> 00:12:05.220 Paul Casey: And an endurance that we just got through another day together, but we were very intentional in that and leadership. 91 00:12:06.930 --> 00:12:18.210 Paul Casey: So leaders, also have to fire themselves up because every day you're out in front you're the face of the organization, where do you go jet for inspiration as a leader to fire yourself up. 92 00:12:20.880 --> 00:12:23.850 Jet's iPhone: I really wish I had a better answer for this. 93 00:12:25.800 --> 00:12:26.490 Jet's iPhone: I think. 94 00:12:30.060 --> 00:12:31.110 Jet's iPhone: In order to. 95 00:12:32.940 --> 00:12:38.760 Jet's iPhone: inspire myself for habitat and at this epic pass via the executive director. 96 00:12:39.900 --> 00:12:45.600 Jet's iPhone: it's important for me to be in contact and to work with other executive directors from around the state. 97 00:12:48.090 --> 00:12:50.940 Jet's iPhone: hearing what they're working on what their challenges are. 98 00:12:52.770 --> 00:12:58.560 Jet's iPhone: It allows me opportunity to learn and inform sometimes. 99 00:12:59.790 --> 00:13:07.230 Jet's iPhone: I think there are there are affiliate leaders that I can offer some solutions to or guidance or and then other times and most likely. 100 00:13:08.040 --> 00:13:26.070 Jet's iPhone: they're offering that for me and and it's a it's a reminder that the mission like you said is big and it's bigger than our affiliate it's bigger than our State actually and our country what habitats trying to do around the world. 101 00:13:27.420 --> 00:13:44.250 Jet's iPhone: Is a huge undertaking, and I think, making sure that I have some regular connection with other people that are serving at the same capacity level that I am is important, just to not get burnt out. 102 00:13:46.200 --> 00:13:50.460 Jet's iPhone: But to remind myself, that there are there are many, many other people. 103 00:13:51.840 --> 00:13:56.970 Jet's iPhone: engaged in this work and who have stories of inspiration that. 104 00:13:58.470 --> 00:13:59.130 Jet's iPhone: are good for me. 105 00:14:00.420 --> 00:14:11.730 Paul Casey: yeah because it's stories of inspiration pull us up even their frustrations, we can commiserate with like oh other people struggle to not just me i'm not struggling here by myself. 106 00:14:12.150 --> 00:14:14.040 Paul Casey: and ideas get traded. 107 00:14:14.310 --> 00:14:21.060 Paul Casey: that's why I love mastermind groups I think you're in one with some executive directors, that I know of as well. 108 00:14:21.720 --> 00:14:29.850 Paul Casey: As well as in your industry with habitat and other affiliate directors so tries to the influencer listeners if you're not in some kind of group. 109 00:14:30.360 --> 00:14:47.430 Paul Casey: Where people at your level your role within your industry or just across industries gather, I would say form one make a group invite some friends keep each other accountable keep each other pumped up and you'll you'll look forward to those meetings each and every month. 110 00:14:49.170 --> 00:15:01.770 Paul Casey: And then jet there's the continuous improvement aspect I know you're a learner and so you have to set the tone and leadership for learning what are you currently working on yourself to better yourself. 111 00:15:03.810 --> 00:15:04.200 Jet's iPhone: I think. 112 00:15:05.220 --> 00:15:05.820 Jet's iPhone: i'm. 113 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:13.650 Jet's iPhone: dive into more specifically, some of the things that I i'm learning about one of those areas is. 114 00:15:16.710 --> 00:15:19.950 Jet's iPhone: In the area of racial reconciliation. 115 00:15:21.210 --> 00:15:34.560 Jet's iPhone: You know tri cities i've well i've lived i've had the opportunity to live in many urban environments, bigger than the tri cities, other countries and continents. 116 00:15:35.880 --> 00:15:50.130 Jet's iPhone: And one of the things that I don't think i've ever really thought very carefully about or critically about is what is the racial diversity of our own community here locally and. 117 00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:56.370 Jet's iPhone: I think it was became very pertinent this last year and a half. 118 00:15:57.420 --> 00:16:02.400 Jet's iPhone: As the racial reconciliation conversation has you know sparked. 119 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:06.990 Jet's iPhone: Many, many, many debates and just. 120 00:16:08.010 --> 00:16:23.310 Jet's iPhone: passionate conversations all over the country, what does that mean for us locally and we're not exempt from it, what but what does that look like, and so one of the things that i've just been trying to read up and better understand is. 121 00:16:25.050 --> 00:16:27.540 Jet's iPhone: This is what does that mean here. 122 00:16:28.650 --> 00:16:31.710 Jet's iPhone: habitat for humanity's very existence. 123 00:16:32.940 --> 00:16:38.160 Jet's iPhone: started in rural Georgia, you know 50 years ago and. 124 00:16:39.450 --> 00:16:49.320 Jet's iPhone: It was along those lines of racial reconciliation and how do we, how does how, how do communities, provide for. 125 00:16:50.250 --> 00:16:57.120 Jet's iPhone: People and create opportunity for those that need it, the most and those that need it, the most in Georgia at that time, where the sharecroppers. 126 00:16:57.660 --> 00:17:17.640 Jet's iPhone: So habitats existence its roots is in racial reconciliation and then never really thought about that aspect of the organization and its mission until this last year and a half and wanting to better understand how does that How does that applied to us locally. 127 00:17:19.110 --> 00:17:34.770 Jet's iPhone: Who are who are the people that we are are trying to serve and what does that look like and not to shy away from the conversation, but actually just try to educate myself a little bit more, so that we can come up with. 128 00:17:35.880 --> 00:17:40.500 Jet's iPhone: Collaborative approaches to address, whatever the situation is. 129 00:17:41.250 --> 00:17:49.740 Paul Casey: so good, and I think we have tri cities recently in the fall had a diversity equity inclusion conference I don't know if you went to that. 130 00:17:50.580 --> 00:17:56.220 Paul Casey: But I heard, I heard good things that it's one of the ways this area is trying to do what you're doing, which is so good. 131 00:17:56.490 --> 00:18:11.070 Paul Casey: Not just go back to your organization's roots and pull that forward into the present here in tri cities, but like you said to not shy away from the discussion, but to learn, even if you don't feel like an expert on it just keep learning about it, so that you can be a part of the discussion. 132 00:18:14.010 --> 00:18:27.480 Paul Casey: How do you balance and integrate family time personal time jet you know work as a nonprofit executive could take up every minute of your day and week So how do you give that priority time. 133 00:18:27.930 --> 00:18:35.610 Paul Casey: To work so that family doesn't suffer and families, so that work doesn't suffer it's probably not an easy answer, but what are you currently trying. 134 00:18:37.980 --> 00:18:44.040 Jet's iPhone: Honestly, Paul this isn't a struggle for me I I I. 135 00:18:45.150 --> 00:18:52.620 Jet's iPhone: I love the work and I realized that it doesn't always fit the standard nine to five. 136 00:18:54.300 --> 00:19:00.360 Jet's iPhone: date, you know typical work week that other jobs have but. 137 00:19:01.860 --> 00:19:02.700 Jet's iPhone: The balance. 138 00:19:02.760 --> 00:19:15.990 Jet's iPhone: For me, is is in boundaries it's when i'm home i'm home that's that's where I I turn off that's where I unwind I don't I try not to check my email too much unless. 139 00:19:16.680 --> 00:19:18.090 Jet's iPhone: i'm waiting on something that. 140 00:19:18.150 --> 00:19:29.910 Jet's iPhone: needed my response you know when i'm home it's that's it i'm i've never been one that works well from home I work better from you this. 141 00:19:30.450 --> 00:19:48.030 Jet's iPhone: And so, this whole I think the bigger challenge has been you know in our current environment with everyone, preferring to work from home how do I get my staff to come back to the office to work with me here because that's where I work better when i'm when i'm at the office. 142 00:19:48.300 --> 00:19:48.840 Jet's iPhone: working. 143 00:19:49.170 --> 00:19:51.630 Jet's iPhone: And when i'm when i'm at home i'm relaxing. 144 00:19:53.490 --> 00:20:02.850 Jet's iPhone: So, having those boundaries, I think, is really important for me to achieve that that balance but, honestly, it hasn't been. 145 00:20:04.230 --> 00:20:11.160 Jet's iPhone: It really hasn't been an issue you know, maybe there, maybe i'm maybe that's a blind spot that I need to think about and talk to my board. 146 00:20:12.180 --> 00:20:13.650 Jet's iPhone: If they feel like I haven't gotten a. 147 00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:14.490 response. 148 00:20:15.780 --> 00:20:16.710 Jet's iPhone: times but. 149 00:20:17.220 --> 00:20:24.750 Jet's iPhone: To be honest, it's it's boundaries and it's also it's also staffing, you know I, I have a staff that. 150 00:20:25.890 --> 00:20:38.940 Jet's iPhone: is amazing, and they do their jobs well and I don't have to worry about little things if I know that they're taking care of it, you know they're they're doing their job they're doing it well. 151 00:20:40.470 --> 00:20:52.290 Jet's iPhone: And, and things are getting done, even if i'm not watching them and so when i'm when I can when I leave the office, I can I can turn my brain off a little bit and and just relax. 152 00:20:53.160 --> 00:21:01.050 Paul Casey: I applaud your great boundaries, because the work will still be there tomorrow and most things that we make urgent are truly urgent so. 153 00:21:01.380 --> 00:21:12.450 Paul Casey: I really applaud that and I think you're right on that the best work life balance is a great staff or a great team wrapped around you at which you can empower to keep doing great things and. 154 00:21:12.870 --> 00:21:26.340 Paul Casey: You recharge your batteries, so you can stay out in front so yeah totally totally applaud that and I want to talk more about your team, but let's uh let's pause before we head into that next question and give a shout out to our sponsor. 155 00:21:29.700 --> 00:21:36.270 Paul Casey: So Jeff let's talk about hiring and retaining great employees, probably more pertinent today than ever before, how. 156 00:21:36.660 --> 00:21:47.430 Paul Casey: what's your process or the organization's process for attracting great talent and then what are you trying to do intentionally in the workplace, so that employees, want to stay with you. 157 00:21:51.120 --> 00:21:53.910 Jet's iPhone: Well, if someone has figured this out, please let me know. 158 00:21:56.070 --> 00:21:57.840 Paul Casey: you're supposed to have all the answers for. 159 00:21:59.850 --> 00:22:00.600 Jet's iPhone: Certainly. 160 00:22:00.690 --> 00:22:07.980 Jet's iPhone: Certainly, do not have all the answers in this area, but it is a pertinent question because we are in the hiring process right now. 161 00:22:07.980 --> 00:22:08.310 Paul Casey: For. 162 00:22:08.700 --> 00:22:10.170 Jet's iPhone: For two key positions. 163 00:22:11.580 --> 00:22:12.120 Jet's iPhone: and 164 00:22:14.040 --> 00:22:20.100 Jet's iPhone: This will be since i've been at the in the role here, probably the fourth or fifth person i've i've hired. 165 00:22:21.630 --> 00:22:27.030 Jet's iPhone: And what i've learned through that process is to manage expectations early. 166 00:22:28.680 --> 00:22:29.760 Jet's iPhone: it's really. 167 00:22:30.900 --> 00:22:34.620 Jet's iPhone: You know it's it's a it's a, you have the job description. 168 00:22:36.570 --> 00:22:52.050 Jet's iPhone: In front of you, and you know you put that out as as and post it and people are applying to it, and I think what's common in every single nonprofit job description i've ever read is the very last point additional duties as we acquire. 169 00:22:53.820 --> 00:22:55.800 Paul Casey: The most important one yeah. 170 00:22:55.890 --> 00:23:03.000 Jet's iPhone: which you know automatically I think this last hiring round I just took that last bullet and moved it to the top. 171 00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:04.620 Jet's iPhone: First. 172 00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:05.340 Jet's iPhone: first thing. 173 00:23:07.080 --> 00:23:16.740 Jet's iPhone: But, but it it it speaks to I think the bigger challenge of managing expectations, you know we are an affiliate. 174 00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:22.050 Jet's iPhone: Locally with about eight to 10 full time equivalent staff. 175 00:23:23.970 --> 00:23:32.070 Jet's iPhone: we're not large by any means and but we're not we're not the smallest in the state, but it means that we all wear multiple hats. 176 00:23:32.220 --> 00:23:43.380 Jet's iPhone: And we all do, different things, and as someone proves themselves, efficient and effective and in a in a capacity that we didn't expect well that's a new job for them, you know. 177 00:23:44.370 --> 00:23:45.150 Jet's iPhone: it's a. 178 00:23:45.270 --> 00:23:56.850 Jet's iPhone: it's it's but it's about for me it's about managing expectations, so that people realize that you know what we do isn't. 179 00:23:57.900 --> 00:24:15.600 Jet's iPhone: limited to our job descriptions that it, it has we all have a bigger role beyond our job description and so to not shy away from from what that means taking on responsibilities, you might not have expected to take on, but being able to do that graciously and. 180 00:24:16.650 --> 00:24:25.140 Jet's iPhone: and positively, you know that's that's important one of the things I think, for us, though, is a lot of people don't realize. 181 00:24:26.610 --> 00:24:28.920 Jet's iPhone: habitats connection to the faith community. 182 00:24:29.940 --> 00:24:30.900 Jet's iPhone: Our background. 183 00:24:31.950 --> 00:24:43.350 Jet's iPhone: In our very inception, was it with two two missionaries in a pastor in southern Georgia and that that aspect of our mission seeking to put god's love and action has. 184 00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:54.330 Jet's iPhone: permeated everything that we do, but I feel a lot of people don't realize that and so sometimes they come into the role and it's like oh I didn't know that this. 185 00:24:54.900 --> 00:25:05.460 Jet's iPhone: organization was like that and and and it, it can make some people uncomfortable if they're not prepared for it so that's that's one of those aspects of managing expectations, making sure. 186 00:25:05.850 --> 00:25:13.170 Jet's iPhone: That everybody that comes into the organization is clear on what we're about and what we do and why we do it it's. 187 00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:17.730 Jet's iPhone: it's certainly not to limit or isolate anybody, but. 188 00:25:18.930 --> 00:25:20.250 Jet's iPhone: it's one of those things where. 189 00:25:21.360 --> 00:25:26.580 Jet's iPhone: If everyone understands the job description and the mission fully. 190 00:25:27.750 --> 00:25:28.170 Jet's iPhone: Then. 191 00:25:29.760 --> 00:25:48.930 Jet's iPhone: If you want to be a part of the team then great there's a role for you, and if not, we hope that you find the role that the job or the organization that fits for you, better, but from the very beginning, from day one from when they the first interview starts there yeah. 192 00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:55.620 Paul Casey: being very clear with the why the vision, the mission, if you want to align with us we're going this direction. 193 00:25:56.160 --> 00:26:00.300 Paul Casey: Jim Collins always talked about getting the right seat people in the right seats on the on the bus. 194 00:26:00.840 --> 00:26:06.840 Paul Casey: So huge and I do a seminar on giving and receiving feedback constructively. 195 00:26:07.260 --> 00:26:20.340 Paul Casey: And I my definition of feedback is calibrating expectations, just two words so you talked about managing expectations, because that's where the conflict, usually happens on a team is I thought. 196 00:26:20.730 --> 00:26:35.550 Paul Casey: I was supposed to do this, you thought I was supposed to do this, and now we have a conflict so as a leader, if we can manage that make it as clear as possible and keep people updated along the way there's a good chance we're going to have less of that unnecessary conflict. 197 00:26:36.990 --> 00:26:47.370 Paul Casey: How do you feel about delegation jet is that a struggle for you, is it something that comes naturally any tips on delegation that you've learned, while you've been in the Leader chair. 198 00:26:47.970 --> 00:26:49.710 Jet's iPhone: I love telling people what to do. 199 00:26:51.300 --> 00:26:51.600 Paul Casey: Okay. 200 00:26:51.630 --> 00:26:52.890 Jet's iPhone: next question, not a problem. 201 00:26:56.190 --> 00:27:15.900 Jet's iPhone: Well, no it's it's it's I think it's something that I rely on quite a bit like I said we're a small staff, and we all have our job descriptions, or maybe we should say our job suggestions of like this is the idea that we all went books, but the flexibility to do other things. 202 00:27:17.220 --> 00:27:23.760 Jet's iPhone: means that I can I can assign tasks that come up rather randomly or unexpectedly. 203 00:27:24.780 --> 00:27:27.900 Jet's iPhone: To two people that I know that they'll get done. 204 00:27:30.690 --> 00:27:40.500 Jet's iPhone: One thing, though I I try to keep in mind, as I delegate anything is Am I delegating something that I wouldn't be willing to do myself. 205 00:27:42.540 --> 00:27:59.400 Jet's iPhone: And if I find that that's the case, then I I don't delegate that task, I hope that if you ever talked to any of my staff, they would say he's never asked me to do something that he hasn't done or been willing to do himself. 206 00:27:59.460 --> 00:28:00.570 Paul Casey: Yes, yes. 207 00:28:00.630 --> 00:28:09.690 Jet's iPhone: um, so I think, then, with that thought in mind, as I, as I delegate some sometimes I think people don't like to delegate because. 208 00:28:11.370 --> 00:28:20.610 Jet's iPhone: they're afraid that the task won't get done well, or to their standards and that's to me that's a communication problem, not. 209 00:28:21.090 --> 00:28:23.100 Jet's iPhone: A or Anna micromanaging problem. 210 00:28:23.280 --> 00:28:32.550 Jet's iPhone: If you have a staff that you trust and have experienced success with then it's no problem delegating things to them, because you know the job will get done well. 211 00:28:34.080 --> 00:28:41.490 Jet's iPhone: And if it doesn't then it was probably a communication error from my part so it's a learning point there another learning opportunity there. 212 00:28:41.880 --> 00:28:48.090 Paul Casey: yeah donation equals good I mean good communication is essential part of good delegation. 213 00:28:48.720 --> 00:29:04.080 Jet's iPhone: Right, but then for me to delegate, something I can confidently say i've done this, I know what you got to do like I can help you with it, but you got this you know it's it's a task that I. 214 00:29:05.550 --> 00:29:18.690 Jet's iPhone: I i've done and I i'm i'm not shirking the responsibility by giving it to you, but actually i'm still do that you can do this well so that's that's kind of the difference there feel. 215 00:29:19.830 --> 00:29:32.490 Jet's iPhone: When it comes to delegation is is really just being mindful of what i'm asking someone to do, and this is something that I wouldn't ask someone that I if it's something that I haven't done or wouldn't do myself and why am I, asking them to do it. 216 00:29:34.650 --> 00:29:38.010 Jet's iPhone: it's it's important, I think, to understand that about myself. 217 00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:45.390 Paul Casey: yeah that's delegation isn't dumping and that's what often people do and they're not willing to do it themselves so it's leading by example. 218 00:29:45.870 --> 00:29:57.510 Paul Casey: And being a servant leader, which you're illustrating with that so we're learning that about you jet and also that if you're proficient in your organization, we reward you with more work no just kidding. 219 00:30:00.210 --> 00:30:01.770 Paul Casey: The duties as assigned right. 220 00:30:02.700 --> 00:30:03.570 Jet's iPhone: Oh yeah I think. 221 00:30:04.590 --> 00:30:05.730 Jet's iPhone: that's true but. 222 00:30:07.170 --> 00:30:11.160 Jet's iPhone: you're responsible with with the little things you'll be possible with. 223 00:30:12.180 --> 00:30:14.820 Paul Casey: Oh it's so good, I think that's in the Bible somewhere. 224 00:30:15.810 --> 00:30:16.050 Jet's iPhone: that's. 225 00:30:16.290 --> 00:30:24.510 Paul Casey: Good that's good well Jeff Finally, what advice would you give to new leaders or anyone who wants to keep growing and gaining more influence. 226 00:30:30.300 --> 00:30:34.410 Jet's iPhone: wow I consider myself a new leader too so. 227 00:30:36.420 --> 00:30:40.020 Jet's iPhone: it's for me the answer to this is a little bit of the blind leading the blind. 228 00:30:41.010 --> 00:30:43.890 Paul Casey: From one leader to another one right or another yeah. 229 00:30:44.730 --> 00:30:45.660 Jet's iPhone: I, I think. 230 00:30:46.920 --> 00:30:49.320 Jet's iPhone: What comes to mind is focusing on your impact. 231 00:30:52.320 --> 00:30:53.880 Jet's iPhone: You know humility. 232 00:30:55.770 --> 00:31:02.550 Jet's iPhone: I think oftentimes humility is equated with meekness and when I when I think of focusing on my impact from a. 233 00:31:04.110 --> 00:31:07.920 Jet's iPhone: standpoint of humility, it means, am I doing everything that I like. 234 00:31:09.060 --> 00:31:18.870 Jet's iPhone: If you draw a circle on a piece of paper everything inside that circle as me what I can do what what I can achieve and my filling that circle completely. 235 00:31:19.050 --> 00:31:23.160 Jet's iPhone: that's still that's humility, I think, as. 236 00:31:23.700 --> 00:31:25.200 Jet's iPhone: I truly understand it. 237 00:31:25.620 --> 00:31:27.540 Jet's iPhone: oftentimes we think of meekness. 238 00:31:29.790 --> 00:31:44.490 Jet's iPhone: And connection to humility and so there's like are you focusing on your impact, are you are you focusing on what you can do and what you can achieve are you challenging yourself to make that circle bigger but still fill it completely. 239 00:31:45.600 --> 00:31:57.960 Jet's iPhone: When we start to focus on on things outside of that circle, you know that that then becomes I think arrogant and also starts to stretch us in ways that we're not ready. 240 00:31:59.790 --> 00:32:11.490 Jet's iPhone: And may not be able to handle so so focusing on your sphere of impact your circle of impact what you can do and how you can achieve it and do it well, I think, is really important. 241 00:32:12.570 --> 00:32:17.040 Jet's iPhone: and defining again those boundaries of what is inside and what is outside of that circle. 242 00:32:19.980 --> 00:32:21.840 Paul Casey: So good so good, I feel. 243 00:32:22.050 --> 00:32:24.390 Jet's iPhone: that's probably that's where I would start. 244 00:32:25.050 --> 00:32:40.680 Paul Casey: fill the circle and anything outside of that circle often becomes a worry to it could be arrogance like you said, but it can also be worried because it's out of my control or yeah it's not in its not in my sphere of influence so yeah. 245 00:32:40.770 --> 00:32:42.120 Paul Casey: I think that go ahead. 246 00:32:42.540 --> 00:32:45.180 Jet's iPhone: 111 thing that that comes from is. 247 00:32:46.230 --> 00:33:06.420 Jet's iPhone: My experience with habitat so far, you know we we focus on people who are we focused on helping families and individuals in the Community that fall between 30% and 60% area of media income medium area median income sorry I don't know why that was difficult for me to say, but we often. 248 00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:11.190 Jet's iPhone: Get lumped into the organizations that are working on housing. 249 00:33:12.930 --> 00:33:23.910 Jet's iPhone: Beyond that spectrum so particularly housing for homeless individuals experiencing immediately immediate need for housing and urgency. 250 00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:30.360 Jet's iPhone: And people coming out of transitional housing or started people needing transitional housing coming out of. 251 00:33:31.320 --> 00:33:52.290 Jet's iPhone: The prisons or recovery programs things like that nature everybody needs a place to live, everyone needs a place to call home habitat is best suited for people between 30 and 60 and up sometimes up to 80% higher median income, and we should be supportive of organizations that do others. 252 00:33:53.310 --> 00:33:56.670 Jet's iPhone: But it is not our responsibility to fix those problems. 253 00:33:56.790 --> 00:33:57.090 yep. 254 00:33:58.710 --> 00:33:59.160 Jet's iPhone: and 255 00:33:59.220 --> 00:34:03.330 Jet's iPhone: And I think so that's where it's being humble and what you know you can do. 256 00:34:03.540 --> 00:34:04.110 Jet's iPhone: But doing it. 257 00:34:04.920 --> 00:34:16.470 Paul Casey: yeah staying on mission for sure well Jeff How can our listeners best connect with you and your local the local affiliate here of habitat. 258 00:34:16.920 --> 00:34:18.360 Jet's iPhone: know my DEMO handle. 259 00:34:21.960 --> 00:34:24.510 Paul Casey: So what he's saying is he needs donations. 260 00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:26.190 Jet's iPhone: Just kidding. 261 00:34:27.510 --> 00:34:39.000 Jet's iPhone: Obviously we're online habitat builds calm is the website for our local affiliate here and our social media on Facebook, is the same handle. 262 00:34:40.380 --> 00:34:49.500 Jet's iPhone: But yeah feel free to stop by we have a we have a great store for DIY projects, then you can learn more about the mission there. 263 00:34:49.800 --> 00:35:07.980 Jet's iPhone: What we're doing feel free to fill out a volunteer application and come out to the site where we're working in Pascoe right now, and hopefully in other parts of the Community and the greater counties, as we try to seek to impact people beyond just the tri cities. 264 00:35:09.390 --> 00:35:14.580 Paul Casey: Well, thanks again Jeff for all you do to make the tri cities, a great place and keep leading well. 265 00:35:15.750 --> 00:35:16.470 Jet's iPhone: Thank you for. 266 00:35:17.250 --> 00:35:27.240 Paul Casey: Let me wrap up our podcast today with a leadership resource to recommend and i've just redesigned my website now I haven't obviously I hire better people. 267 00:35:27.810 --> 00:35:36.090 Paul Casey: To do that i'll put in a plug for spotted fox digital here in the tri city, so if you haven't been over to my website Paul casey.org. 268 00:35:36.510 --> 00:35:53.400 Paul Casey: I encourage you to go over there there's some free resources there there's some ones that my books are on that site and some other tools, you can see, the other services, I offer would love for you to just check it out and give your give your comments on Paul casey.org. 269 00:35:55.620 --> 00:36:05.430 Paul Casey: Again this is Paul Casey and I want to thank my guest jet Richardson from habitat for humanity tri county partners for being here today on the tri cities influencer podcast. 270 00:36:05.820 --> 00:36:15.330 Paul Casey: We want to thank our sponsor and invite you to support them, we appreciate you making this possible, so that we can collaborate to help inspire leaders in our Community. 271 00:36:15.870 --> 00:36:20.790 Paul Casey: Finally, one more leadership tidbit for the road to help you make a difference in your circle of influence. 272 00:36:21.120 --> 00:36:37.530 Paul Casey: it's from Tony Robbins he said, the higher your energy level, the more efficient your body, the more efficient in your body, the better you feel and the more you will use your talent to produce outstanding results so until next time kg F keep growing forward.

S1E1 – The Retail Avengers & The Future of Frontline Staff, Part 1Welcome to Season 1, Episode 1, the first-ever episode of The Retail Razor Show!I'm your host, Ricardo Belmar, a RETHINK Retail Top 100 Retail Influencer, RIS News Top Movers and Shakers in Retail for 2021, advisory council member at George Mason University's Center for Retail Transformation, and lead partner marketing advisor for retail & consumer goods at Microsoft.And I'm your co-host, Casey Golden, CEO of Luxlock and slayer of retail frankenstacks!Together, we're your guides on the retail transformation journey. Whether you're thinking digital and online, mobile, or brick & mortar stores, there'll be something for you!In episode 1 we dive into the future of retail frontline workers, with none other than Ron Thurston, author of Retail Pride, The Guide to Celebrating Your Accidental Career. Ron joins our Retail Avengers team on Clubhouse to talk about what retailers need to do to foster the right environment for their store teams.For more information about Ron, and how you can Take Pride Today in your retail career, visit Ron's website: https://www.retailpride.comThe Retail Razor ShowFollow us on Twitter: https://bit.ly/TwRRazorConnect with us on LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/LI-RRazorJoin our club on Clubhouse: http://bit.ly/RRazorClubListen to us on Callin: https://bit.ly/RRCallinSubscribe on YouTube: https://bit.ly/RRShowYouTubeSubscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://bit.ly/RetailRazorShowRetail Razor Show Episode Page: https://bit.ly/RRShowPodHost → Ricardo Belmar,Follow on Twitter - ****https://bit.ly/twRBelmarConnect on LinkedIn - ****https://bit.ly/LIRBelmarRead my comments on RetailWire - ****https://bit.ly/RWRBelmarCo-host → Casey Golden,Follow on Twitter - ****https://bit.ly/twCaseyConnect on LinkedIn - ****https://bit.ly/LICaseyRead my comments on RetailWire - https://bit.ly/RWCaseyTRANSCRIPTThe Retail Avengers & The Future of Frontline Staff, Part 1[00:00:20] Ricardo: Hello. Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. No matter what time of day you're listening. Welcome. Welcome to season one, episode one, the first ever episode of the retail razor show. I'm your host Ricardo Belmar, a top 100 retail influencer and lead partner marketing advisor for retail and consumer goods at Microsoft.[00:00:37] Casey: And I'm your co-host Casey Golden CEO of Luxlock and Slayer of retail frankenstacks, [00:00:43] Ricardo: retail, frankenstacks. I love that intro. I really need to get a tagline like that. Casey. [00:00:48] Casey: Slaying, frankenstacks. It's a messy job it's earned.[00:00:51] Ricardo: Oh, I believe it![00:00:52] Casey: So I'm super stoked to kick off our first episode ever of the show! [00:00:56] Ricardo: I am too. I am too. So let's talk a little bit about what the show will be like. This all started some months ago with the retail razor club on clubhouse and a powerhouse group of retail experts and thought leaders to just talk retail, talk tech and host some really good deep discussions on what we think people in this industry need to make a difference and to be a change maker.[00:01:14] Casey: Tell us more Ricardo, tell us more. I feel like we need some dramatic [00:01:20] music here [00:01:20] Ricardo: and maybe for episode two, we'll add some budget for dramatic music. So our goal is to cut through all the noise, cut through the clutter, make it all actionable. Let everybody learn from the people who've actually done things.[00:01:33] Anyone who's solving challenges and not afraid to expose the hard truths.. [00:01:37] Casey: And best of all, since we started this on clubhouse, we made it interactive. So people could ask tough questions and voice their opinions. [00:01:44] Ricardo: A hundred percent, a hundred percent all the way. This is an open forum. One that really moves the industry forward.[00:01:50] By sharing deep, deep knowledge, we started an amazing series of rooms initially called retail tech predictions 2025. But you know, our group quickly earned the nickname, the Retail Avengers, [00:02:00] Casey: Captain America., right here![00:02:02] Ricardo: And I am iron man, you know, you're right Casey. We really do need some dramatic music and we got to work on that [00:02:06] Casey: maybe by episode three next time, next time.[00:02:10] Ricardo: Yeah, episode three, that I'm going to take, make a note of that. Okay. So in each episode listeners will hear one of our fabulous clubhouse rooms and we'll bring back [00:02:20] guests from those discussions for a few last words. But don't think that's all we have to offer in future episodes. We're going to introduce new segments, extra guests, and we'll also have some unique interview sessions that we're going to record in another app called Callin. [00:02:32] Casey: Can't wait for those. [00:02:34] So Ricardo, who's our special guests for the opening episode. [00:02:37] Ricardo: We are starting up strong with one of the best out there. Ron Thurston, the author of the book, Retail Pride, former head of stores at Intermix and quite possibly, one of our favorite retail executives out there.[00:02:48] Right? Casey, [00:02:49] Casey: I'm a fan. Let's get to it! [00:02:50] Ricardo: Okay. So let's quickly introduce the rest of our Retail Avengers team and everyone will be hearing from them quite often in these sessions. So besides Casey and myself, we have Jeff Roster, fellow RETHINK Retail, top one hundred influencer and fellow advisory council member at the George Mason University Center for Retail Transformation and former analyst.[00:03:11] Then we have Shish Shridhar, the global retail lead at Microsoft for Startups.[00:03:16] Casey: And Brandon Rael transformation delivery strategy leader at [00:03:20] Reach Partners, and one of my faves, Trevor Sumner, CEO of Perch Interactive. [00:03:25] Ricardo: All right. So without further delay, let's give a listen to the Retail Avengers and the future of Frontline Staff, Part 1.Clubhouse Session[00:03:42] Ricardo: So with that my name is Ricardo Belmar. I host the retail razor club here on Clubhouse. Retail tech guy have been in retail tech for the better part of the last two decades, working at various different solution providers and managed service providers, and of course, I like to say the best technology in retail is the kind that's seamless and transparent that you don't even notice.[00:04:02] Jeff: Hi Jeff Roster co-host of this week in innovation and serve on several advisory boards and a former Gartner and IHL retail sector analyst [00:04:11] Brandon: Hi, Brandon Rael here. I'm currently one of the transformation and delivery and strategy leaders here at Reach Partners a consultancy. My background is retail and consumer products, industries, and I've been working in the strategy consulting space, focusing predominantly on digital and it's impact on organizations and helping companies transform and evolve.[00:04:29] Casey: Hi, Casey here, founder of Luxlock we're a retail experience platform and we are deploying an independent workforce and re-skilling them. So I love this topic of the conversation. Worked a lot in enterprise retail tech [00:04:42] and on the e-commerce side. So excited to be here you guys, fun conversation! [00:04:46] Ricardo: Definitely will be! Shish. [00:04:47] Shish: Hi, good afternoon. I'm the retail lead at Microsoft for Startups and I'm actually working on building out a portfolio of retail tech B2B startups solving complex business challenges in retail. Absolutely love the topic that we're we're we're we're talking about today. Looking forward to it. Thank you. [00:05:03] Ricardo: I see Trevor has joined us. Trevor why don't you do a quick intro. [00:05:06] Trevor: My name is Trevor Sumner. I'm the CEO of perch. We do interactive displays in IOT that detect which products you touch and like minority report. They just wake up and start telling you about the product, they call them shelf talkers. So I've been deep in retail and retail tech for almost a decade now. So excited to be on board with everybody here. [00:05:26] Ricardo: All right. Wonderful. We have a special guest with us this week, Ron Thurston author of the book, retail pride, which I highly recommend.[00:05:33] Ron, why don't you go ahead and give us your introduction [00:05:36] Ron: hi everyone. Thank you. Yes. My name is Ron Thurston and I am the author of Retail Pride, the guide to [00:05:42] celebrating your accidental career, which is really about recognizing the hard work that the millions of people that work in all of our stores all around the world do every day.[00:05:50] And my full-time role is as the vice president of stores Intermix which officially today is a freestanding business on its own no longer under the Gap umbrella. And so we have a lot of exciting momentum behind us now being privately held and it will be an exciting adventure. And I sit on the board of directors of Goodwill here for New York and New Jersey, which also has a really exciting retail component to it, which I'm happy to talk about.[00:06:18] So thanks for inviting me, Ricardo. [00:06:19] Ricardo: Fantastic. We're really happy to have you here with us today, Ron, this is a topic that I know many of us on the panel have been wanting to do for a while. Not the least of which is because of the added focus that retail frontline workers have seen over the past 15 months.[00:06:34] Frontline Worker Sentiment[00:06:34] Ricardo: I want to ask everybody on the panel, What's the sentiment these days about frontline workers, has it swung more positive to the point where [00:06:42] frontline workers are going to get the recognition that they deserve to have for the job they do and the service they provide to customers and retail brands? [00:06:49] Ron, I'm going to ask you to respond first because I'd really like to hear what your feeling is on that. [00:06:53] Ron: Sure. Thanks, Ricardo. I have probably never been more excited about the opportunity for store teams. And I think as customers have come back in and , every day it's getting bigger, the opportunity to recognize in many ways the increased skillset necessary to manage the emotional, the tougher part of retail in conjunction with more tech in conjunction with higher customer demands and kind of new ways to shop has put this pressure and, excitement back into stores and the training that's necessary. [00:07:29] The up skill in the hiring process has never been more important. They, kind of challenge of the value of the brick and mortar business in compared to e-commerce.[00:07:39] This is the time where more [00:07:42] than ever, we need highly skilled people that are, that work in brick and mortar, retail, and are compensated for that work and the business models that are evolving out of it.[00:07:52] And I think it's just every day, I'm more excited about what I'm seeing my own business and what I'm reading about every day.[00:07:59] Brandon: I could not agree more with Ron. , if anything, the pandemic has accelerated the recognition of how critical the retail staff or brand ambassador to the store associates and how important they are to run the operation of building that trusted relationship with the customer.[00:08:15] I consider that the retail associates, part of the last mile of fulfillment and not necessarily the product, but of the relationship of the brand or the brand equity. [00:08:23] people go to the store to engage, to get inspired, to discover. And, , I'm all digital first. We know everyone is digital first and shopping e-commerce, , percentage wise, it's still , 15% of the business is converted on ecommerce.[00:08:36] The physical stores are as critical as ever to bridge that digital and physical gap and the journey [00:08:42]may begin in the store may ultimately end on the retailer's app, but the store associates plays a vital role in that relationship.[00:08:47] Casey: A hundred percent. , one of our biggest goal, which was to deploy an on-demand distributed workforce and it's been pretty amazing to put a lot of people back to work and give them opportunities to sell products that they've never had access to because they worked at a single brand.[00:09:02] Shish: agree with everyone I think there is going to be a big transformational element to it as well. I kind of look at the convenient spot of retail. There's a lot of things that has accelerated, during COVID, , BOPIS in particular. And I think that is going to change what the frontline workers do and, how to do it.[00:09:23] For example, I think there's going to be so much more focused on click and collect orders, because, cashierless becoming more prominent and accelerated. I also think the assisting the self checkout will be one aspect that frontline workers will be doing more of. There might also be a lot of clientelling [00:09:42] that has accelerated as a result.[00:09:43] And also I think from the experiential part of retail, that's going to be a lot more skills and expertise needed because that is leaning more towards that personalized, aspect of it where engaging with customers becomes more more of a requirement. [00:10:02] Trevor: Yeah. I agree with that. I think one of the transformational changes underlying is data. Because of the need for real-time inventory and product information for BOPIS for better supply chain management and COVID is an accelerator for that.[00:10:17] All of a sudden, we've normalized all this data that we can now put in the hands of sales associates. It's not their fault. If you go to a Macy's and you ask your question about what inventory looks like. Yeah, go look at those screens. They're green screens, right? I think they were programmed with punch cards.[00:10:29] Now that has all been changing, right? So the data is now available in normalized and formatted. It's now accessible, not just to be a tablets and iPads in the hands of sales associates, but, even like with Theatro in [00:10:42] a, in a mic format in an ear piece. So that's one piece of it. The second Shish hit on around you have the experiential being more part of it.[00:10:49] And that means being able to do brand storytelling. And while I love the thought that that's all gonna be done by purchasing digital tools like that, I, the role as a sales associate is going to be critical.[00:10:56] Ricardo: Interesting points there about the added roles for store associates to do, especially in light of things like picking up online orders in the store, other operational processes, either for picking product off the shelf to fulfill those orders, that these are new roles, new skills, new functions, we're asking those store associates to do and asking them to leverage real-time data about customers they're working with or items in the store, whether it's product information or other operational components.[00:11:23] Frontline Roles[00:11:23] Ricardo: One of the things that I would like to get into next is what are some of these additional roles? We've mentioned a few now, which were brought about by the nature of the pandemic, but what other new roles are we going to see frontline workers in retail taking on and particularly what are the required skills and I'll reference, really interesting article that I believe was in the wall street [00:11:42] journal about Levi's offering machine learning training for their retail workers. Presumably because it's a recognition that the need to understand data is going to become so much more important in how these frontline workers work with customers.[00:11:56] So what does everyone think of that? [00:11:58] Ron: I can jump in Ricardo , it's Ron. I actually think that the, width of the skillset has become so wide today that it's kind of become less about we're all cross-trained and we're all good in retail. We could work in stock room and we can work on the sales floor and we can do visual merchandising.[00:12:15] I think it's actually become a little more segmented than said if I have a skillset that is highly engaged and motivated and I'm good on camera for live selling, I'm good in front of customers, I can sell via chat that you have that level of personality. It's actually fully embracing that and saying, let's give you[00:12:34] that kind of customer facing roles or chat roles and not try to expect you to also run out to the curb and do a BOPIS [00:12:42] order and also fulfill a web order in the stock room, or when can you work an overnight to change the visual merchandising? I think we have to say, we have a team of people who are really good at tech people who are maybe good at tasks and people who are highly customer centric because what's coming with the customer coming in today more than ever wants a level of engagement.[00:13:03] And has it's curious, wants to be educated, wants to be styled once all the things that they haven't had. And that, that skill is really high. So I'm actually even looking at my own organization and saying, it's actually less about cross training and more about specialization and being the best version of that specialty based on your skills and your experience and your personality.[00:13:26] Because today, we're also expecting you to be on Instagram. We expect you to live sell. We expect you to, kind of show up every day in a new most highest version of what that would look like in the past. [00:13:39] Trevor: I really loved that. And one of the reasons [00:13:42] is because, I think this provides a new sense of career pathing, and compensation structures.[00:13:48] And so, Ron, I would love to, to understand better how you start thinking through that as the head of stores at the end, you get certified as, an influencer or as a live seller, or for example, there are technologies where during your downtime, you might do online clientelling and reach out in on a one-to-one basis.[00:14:05] Are you.becoming a certified personal shopper. And each of these, has a course associated with that. Some type of certification, some real-time training and evaluation, but also a better pay, better training. And not feeling like you're stuck in a specific kind of job that says a generalist with no place to go.[00:14:25] Ron: I was just going to say it, and having led apple stores. That's very much the apple model. You are a specialist and maybe you in phone or Mac or in software, and then you're next. kind of even more of a specialty or in training or in genius bar. [00:14:42] And that every step is a career trajectory. And I think in fashion, we've also kind of thought of it as we all have to be good at everything.[00:14:50] And I actually think it's more of the apple model, which is very structured and create benchmarks for growth. I agree with you, Trevor.[00:14:59] Casey: I was just going to say that, now that sales associates are able to sell online and get that commission tracked and productivity tracked, it changes the entire model of every single salesperson is able and has the opportunity to become a million dollar seller and not make $35,000 a year or 40,000, $50,000 a year.[00:15:20] We've seen the most of having what the industry used stylists for before, which is doing content on a, on an Instagram or putting lookbooks together or working in, like a stitch fix model and putting outfits or clothes into a box. They're coming to us and they have the passion. They have the skillset, they have the know-how, but they've never talked to a customer before.[00:15:41] And [00:15:42] so they don't know fit, they just get returned. And so, being able to communicate with the client, maintain that relationship over time and learn fit. We've actually had to start segmenting just like Trevor was saying is we're essentially segmenting talent into different talent pools and putting programs together to bring people who have worked at Citrix for the last six years into being able that they would be skilled enough to walk into Gucci on the floor and do a million dollars in sales. And so it's been really interesting and I think that there's going to be a lot of, differentiation between I'm a stylist versus I'm a sales person or a personal shopper right now.[00:16:24] I can't get a single person to agree on what they want to be called because salespeople don't want to be called the stylist and everybody gets called and everybody's called the stylist on Instagram. If you can put an outfit together. So it's like almost [00:16:42] diluted that job title almost in a way where no, I'm more than that. It's been interesting. We're still trying to figure out what. What everybody is going to be called.[00:16:54] Brandon: Is this the transformation evolution of what a store associate really is? I think to Ron's point and Trevor's point, there certainly is doing an operation stocking shelves or whatever else. Actually, what I want engagement with the customer is blended with the arts and sciences of social media, digital marketing, and micro influencing [00:17:14] Ricardo: I agree. I think it's fascinating point here about segmenting and the skills and Ron I like how you compare that to an apple model. One of the things that comes to my mind when I hear everyone saying that is a sort of implies a need for more staff in the store, as you get more specialized, depending of course, on what kind of store it is for format. It is the size of the store. The product categories are in, but if I were to generalize it, it makes me believe that I'm going to need [00:17:42] more staff. The more I specialize in to handle each of these different aspects. And if I compare again to an apple store for me as a consumer, walking into an apple store, there's an overwhelming number of staff.[00:17:52] Trevor: And also think about the revenue per square foot. [00:17:55] Ricardo: That too. Exactly. [00:17:57] Ron: I think that [00:17:58] on a really high margin business, you do have more room for that.[00:18:04] Ricardo: So you distinguish between luxury retailers at that point versus a discounter value retailer, where the model may be sufficiently different, that you don't need to apply that. segmentation or specialization of skills. [00:18:15] Trevor: You mean there's not going to be stylists at dollar stores[00:18:21] Ricardo: that would be, the question, [00:18:22] Shish: natural progression, but there is a customer expectation, which is generally followed by retail tech, responding to it. And one of the aspects that's really happening out there is technologies providing capabilities to address some of these things. For example, expertise in stores.[00:18:39] Today there is an expectation for [00:18:42] expertise. When you go into a store, a specialized store where, electronics or something like that, where you need a store associates to have a lot more knowledge, but with technology capabilities, it is possible to sort of democratize that make available. The expertise from different stores right across all of the stores. And those kinds of things are really making it possible to, to address those expectations as well. [00:19:09] Trevor: Yeah. I mean, one of the things that I'm a big fan of is that's kind of pushing out a technology to the edge. And certainly I look at this through my perch lens.[00:19:17] Which is, when you think about putting the digital experience has guided product storytelling that is available to obviously all the consumers on their own, but also the sales associates. But similarly, if you've got an iPad in your hand, that's a training device for downtime.[00:19:31] That's a career pathing and improvement device. and you can make the most of the hours that you're in store. So I think this pushing technology to the edge and into the fingertips of everyone, has the ability for those [00:19:42] who have the motivation and the desire to hold those skillsets up rapidly than what was available to them in the past.[00:19:48] Ron: A bit of a counter to the, more is better is that this is an industry in brick and mortar retail that has not always been given the accolade as a career that it deserves.[00:19:59] And sometimes this, people that are highly committed and highly skilled, and this is very much an intentional career become that much better at their job. They are retained longer and sometimes it's kind of a quality versus quantity. And so you could actually have a smaller team that's highly skilled, very engaged, works really well under, whatever kind of product categories you're selling and the culture of the company, but provide a level of service because of their expertise and their commitment to the industry.[00:20:30] And that's, I think the kind of temporary nature sometimes of people in stores then requires, more of them versus fewer that are highly skilled. And then, so it's a conversation and a balance that I [00:20:42] think every retailer, is talking about today. [00:20:44] Ricardo: I think that's true. I agree with you I like to view the technology piece of that in many cases, equalizer, sometimes to address the point, you just mentioned about the temporary aspect of people coming and going, and then the turnover and some ways if done properly and seamlessly enough, I think the technology can help normalize that approach a little bit and compensate for loss of skill. When you have people that leave that were perhaps one of those high-end skilled individuals that really knew how to do that job. And therefore they could handle working with many customers at once versus perhaps some of the other staff that are newer at the role might only be able to handle one or two at a time, depending on the type of store environment that you were in.[00:21:25] Question from Evan Kirstel[00:21:25] Ricardo: I want to turn attention over to, Evan who's joined us on stage. Why don't you go ahead and give us your question for the panel. [00:21:30] Evan Kirstel: Yeah. Happy Friday, everyone. I've been most interested in the technology side of retail behind the scenes. I laughed out loud, referenced to green CRT screen [00:21:42] flashing. Sadly, see that far too often. [00:21:46] Ricardo: still see that too often. I agree. [00:21:48] Evan Kirstel: Yeah. Well, the other hand, I talked to a lot of clients who are participating in the kind of digital transformation of retail. And I'd love your opinion on who were some of the players to watch.[00:21:58] I mean, when I'm talking to a lot lately with Facebook workplace or workplace from Facebook, it's their enterprise communications division. So basically taking all of their messaging and video and apps and tools and enabling, or powering retailers like Petco and Domino's and others to improve the employee experience.[00:22:18] So think about, group messaging and calling video tension, live video streaming education, all kinds of analytics around that as well. Are you seeing adoption of more modern communication tools like that or others or what's most interesting to you when it comes to, real-time communication messaging, voice, video, or other apps within the frontline for the workers. [00:22:40] Jeff: Are we talking about [00:22:42] retailers or are we talking about services, service providers to retail? [00:22:45] Evan Kirstel: Yeah, the retailers are adopting a lot of these tools with their frontline employees, for employee engagement, employee communications messaging. We used to call the intranet, but it's basically apps on phones now.[00:22:57] Ricardo: And so we could look at this from both perspectives. I think Jeff, from the prospective of which retailers are doing this well, and what kind of technology are they using?[00:23:04] Ron: I mean, I can share what I use on today, which is retail zip-line line, which is actually used by all of gap, Inc. which is an incredible platform and not an intranet. But it's a communication tool. It's a tracking tool. It's a way to send out quick messages. There's a lot of functionality from multiple reasons. But I think within the store team at every level, day in day out, I've not actually not seen one that does that, come seamlessly that everyone uses without providing, devices to everyone, which is depending on the state and depending on what's happening, that can be a tricky conversation.[00:23:38] But so far that's what I've seen and, has worked really well for me. [00:23:41] Casey: [00:23:42] I'm obviously biased, but, there's going to be a lot more tools that are going to be coming in over the next, 12 to 18 months just because this was a really hard product to sell into a brand three years ago.[00:23:55] A lot of people, in this space that wanted to do it, had to pivot into doing something else because it was just a hard sell. But now I think that, It's going to be a requirement. Just as standard as, having a computer at work, if you have sales associates, and they're going to have to have a tool.[00:24:12] So I think we're going to see more of a standardized school. That's going to be coming out that more brands will start using the same one. But right now everybody's kind of spread all across the board. And there's reasons that brands are choosing one over the other. There hasn't really been one that does everything necessarily doesn't necessarily even do everything well, but obviously I'm biased with my own, but, there's pros and cons to kind of everything right now.[00:24:35] I think we'll see the leader next year. [00:24:36] Shish: And a lot of examples that I've seen, one of them is a startup that I'm working with, called askSID[00:24:42] they have to QR code, on wine bottles or the shelves and customers can scan it and it instantly brings an expert to them and they can ask questions have a conversation.[00:24:52] So this is one way that retailers have actually, really figured out how can they have experts in every store that knows their wines really well without necessarily staffing every store. [00:25:04] Another example I've seen as for call centers itself, where, the expertise that they wanted to provide was to a chat bot. So when a customer calls a call center, the challenges the call center person is looking up information. There's a lot of delays. They're following up an app in the background, doing the search, trying to find the answers to the question the customer wants. So what they're doing to empower this is there is a chat bot and AI based chat bot that is picking up the customer call at the same time in parallel to the human operator.[00:25:39] And the chat bot is [00:25:42] transcribing the call, learning the intent of the questions that the customer is asking, connecting to backe nd showing it to the call center operator at the same time. And this essentially means that the call center operators is far more intelligent in his responses is able to respond very quickly and efficiently to the customer.[00:25:59] So that was one area from a communications perspective that I thought was, very interesting. The third one is really empowering the store associates and, and today there's many companies that provide communication devices. for example, there's a company called Theatro that does a headset based communication device for store associates.[00:26:20] yeah, [00:26:23] Ricardo: love their solution.. [00:26:25] Shish: Turnpike turnpike is out of Sweden and they have, , a, wearable. DASSI wristwatches that send information over to the store associates and it's generally far more discrete, , and store associates can actually use those communication devices to talk to systems in the back [00:26:42] end.[00:26:42] So if they have a question about, do we have a certain product in stock right now? They can ask a chat bot the chat bot will look up the systems instantaneously and be able to get the responses. And this again, I think is another thing that's really transforming the frontline worker, in a way, making them far more efficient , with tools like this.[00:27:03] Jeff: Yep. Hang on, hang on a sec. Let me follow up on that question. Are you doing anything with voice, voice AI? [00:27:10] Shish: Yes. there is, a lot of, I would say controversy around voice. So in terms of voice, for store associates, the one scenario that I talked about last was one where store associates are actually using the headsets to talk to a chat bot.[00:27:27] So if a customer is looking for a certain product, typically what they would do is radio someone in the back room to say, do we have that in the back room? Or is it an order or something like that. But, in this situation they're actually using voice [00:27:42] to talk to a chat bot that is connecting to backend systems to determine if something is in the backroom.[00:27:48] If it does an order, if it's in a nearby store and it is providing the response by voice immediately to the store associate. And that to me is extremely powerful, where the store associates are empowered, but all that information that they using voice queries to query back end systems. [00:28:05] Jeff: How about sentiment or, sense of, either happiness or urgency in the invoice. I'm actually going to be talking to a couple of startups that are actually going to that level of sophistication.[00:28:16] Shish: So, , in call center, there is, I've seen situations where, when, someone calls a call center and the operators talking to that person, there is AI models that the chat bot that it was talking about earlier, that it's, transcribing the call looking at the intent of the questions. At the same time, it is also detecting the sentiment, of each speaker. So if there is, frustration, for example, it'll detect that and it will [00:28:42] notify the call center supervisor that here's the call where there's potentially a problem, and you want to listen to what you want to intervene. So it's actually detecting all of that.[00:28:52] Jeff: Yeah. Interesting.[00:28:53] Brandon: We also need to consider the human element of the organization, the frontline associates, or our ambassadors, how we want to refer to them. The stylist interacting with the customer technology are all referencing it innovative is right up there and on trend and having this be powered by AI AR , virtual reality or critical components of driving personalization, seamless, intuitive, and we're driving adoption rate by the store associates of stylists and the way.[00:29:25] Their ability to effectively serve the customer and effectively providing outstanding customer experience in store and connect that digital aspect of it as well. And help drive conversion as customers come to the store for advice or engagement or a building connection to the brand.[00:29:41] Ricardo: Yeah, [00:29:42] there's an interesting element there I'm reminded of one retailer I talked to a few years back who was deploying devices just as we're talking about and some of the feedback they had from their associates in the pilot stores, is that they were starting to feel like Batman wearing a utility belt because they were being asked to carry all this technology everywhere they went around the store. That tells us there's a threshold somewhere where it becomes too cumbersome to just hand over technology to the associates that way. I think that's a consideration, Brandon, maybe that's what you're getting at as far as paying attention to the human component of this, you can't just ask a store associate to say, here's three devices you need to carry around all day to do these three different tasks. Or there has to be a little bit more thought behind how transparent the technology is and how seamlessly it can be incorporated into their workflow in a way that makes sense. [00:30:28] Brandon: Correct. And we see companies do clienteling and then trying to streamline it to one app or one ipad or mobile first and it's worked for most situations, but again, it has to be connected to the [00:30:42] customer, empowering the store associates and driving outstanding customer experience.[00:30:46] Then I'd love to hear Ron's perspective on that. How technology can help the store associates drive a outstanding customer experience. [00:30:52] Ron: Yeah, no, thanks, Brandon. And you're exactly right. And I think the experience that is most, I think, recognized and celebrated by the customer is, how much history you have to the idea of in clientelling, which, the facts show that the average spend is that much higher.[00:31:10] The retention rate is higher. The return rate is lower. Like the benefits are enormous, but if you can say to someone, oh my gosh, like, let me. Quickly look at your purchase history on my phone, on my iPad that I have in my hand. Wow. It looks like you were here last month and this is what you bought. I have some things I know you're going to love.[00:31:28] And so you begin this relationship building with facts and with information that arms you to provide an exceptional experience. And so the technology kind of in your pocket provides you [00:31:42] information and then you can go and then, the client is entirely engaged because they, feel seen and heard.[00:31:49] They know that their business is appreciated. You can say that kind of along the way. I'm so glad that you came back. I'd really love to help you build on those wardrobe pieces or add that, that other. You know, the technology piece too. your last purchase here at apple. So there's, there's a lot that can happen with technology that just supports relationship building and all of the data in how that benefits an overall company is all positive.[00:32:15] There's no downside to it when done well, other than overwhelming at the store team. And that's where I think you can dial back and say, well, actually who's really good at this let's arm them. This person actually is much better just converting on the sales floor. Doesn't need to have the full deck in front of them.[00:32:34] So I think great leaders can look at that. I do at my own using hero in chat functions and who does confinements, who [00:32:42] converts, who sells more? You can dial in, and it's not one size fits all. And that's where people really, that retention piece starts to escalate because you would say thank you for recognizing that I'm actually not comfortable using this technology, but I'm really good doing this.[00:33:00] Let me do this more. That's a winning formula to retaining your team, building great client relationships and growing your business. But , that's where I put a lot of effort and time today. And, I believe that it really pays off. [00:33:14] Ricardo: That's not even advice specific to retailers organization, but many businesses adopt that approach and, let's call it company culture around how to encourage certain behaviors and how to reward people who are doing the job the best way they can. And also to create an environment that promotes this, the ability to do better and do more, whether it's with technology or without, or is that really, isn't the point, right?[00:33:39] This comes back to your earlier point Ron, about more [00:33:42] specialization and segmentation and the skills and the roles within the store. [00:33:46] All of this plays together into building that better company culture that fosters an environment that encourages this kind of activity and rewards people in these roles because they're filling a really important need for the retailer.[00:34:00] Ron: Yeah. I think that's where we had sometimes dug ourselves into our own trap of saying everyone needs to be good at everything. And then it'd be kind of to become a generalist as at all of it. And the customer's ability to remember their experience is diluted because no one really stood out in their mind, but we created that ourselves.[00:34:21] We created this kind of generic retail, you know, everyone's nice. Are you finding everything? Okay. And then you walk away and that, kind of generic version of retail, you know, Steve, Dennis likes to talk about Is what got us in trouble. And so that's where I'm saying it should not be generic. It should actually be very specialized.[00:34:41] We should hire [00:34:42] people with specialty, and invest in them and be better at what you hired them to do. And those are the people when you see NPS surveys that mention people by name, and I see it every day, you don't go home and write a survey about your experience and reference people's names. If you didn't have an experience that created, it's not through a business card in your shopping bag, you remembered their name because you were so engaged.[00:35:08] That's what happens when you invest in them. And then they deliver that to the customer. And it's like this winning cycle. But not everyone plays that game. And that, is so much fun because you see it in your business. And that's what we're all trying to reestablish today in our industry. [00:35:24] Ricardo: That is so well said, Ron, it's all about embracing the uniqueness and the skill sets that you're bringing into the environment and to the team and encouraging more of that to make the entire team better and ultimately that's reflected in the revenue that you're going to generate through that team, because they're such a [00:35:42] critical part of that process. [00:35:44] Question from Jeff Brand[00:35:44] Ricardo: I, I've, brought a few more folks up on stage so I'm Jeff, I'm going to go to you next , what was your comment for us? [00:35:50] Jeff Brand: Yeah, thank you. I'm an owner of a brick and mortar retail buildings. I'm a landlord, but I'm also a consumer and something that Trevor said, which was interesting to me is that his goal is to create engaging content for consumers that would draw them into the store, but giving them a lot of information to really engage them.[00:36:11] So what I wanted to find out about frontline workers, how do you make sure that the frontline worker knows more than the consumer does when they walk in the store? Because the consumer has the ability to research ad nauseum about the products they're going to shop for. [00:36:28] Trevor: I think that's a great question. I think about that often, right. 70% of shoppers think that they know more than the sales associates, because they have access to that very data. so I think there, are a couple of different ways to think through this. One is, making sure you've got all the [00:36:42] learning management systems for your sales associates, but the other way to think about it is to really think through proprietary tools that walk you through the category.[00:36:51] Most of this content out there is product by product. And what I'm seeing a lot of is digital tools that are being deployed in store and online to do a needs analysis and walk you through the category. I'll give you an example. If I'm buying a drill at home Depot, you got all the drills on the shelf.[00:37:09] But, I don't want to pick control, oh, this is this many Watts and this is that many Watts and great, well, what does that mean? , I don't know the difference between the wattage's . And , what will I be able to do or not be able to do what, walk me through, like, what do I need to strive for?[00:37:23] It's just like, Hey, Trevor just needs to make sure not to call the handyman too much, you know? And, and to look good in front of his wife, that he can fix some things or Trevor, you're really into home improvement projects to do a lot of serious work. And so, thinking through a category type tour and a needs [00:37:42] analysis and providing some of these proprietary tools, I think we'll create a type of guided experience that ends up lending itself in a differentiated way to what you can find out.[00:37:50] Jeff: And I also think we're really getting to , a paradigm where we shouldn't expect store associates to know more than customers coming in. If it's a passionate purchase. When I bought my kayak, I knew probably more about that. I guarantee you, I knew more about that kayak that I settled on, than the REI associates, because I researched it.[00:38:07] I spent days researching it. And so I think, we're sort of at that point where retailers just have to be comfortable with, sort of that, that maybe shift in knowledge and, accelerate and work with that and not necessarily try to fight against it.[00:38:19] Jeff Brand: That's very interesting. Thank you.[00:38:21] Ron: Yeah. And, I think apple again, does a really nice job of putting so much effort into training and yes, clients come in all day. And I remember when I joined apple as a store manager, The launch of iPhone two, and I was really nervous about, I don't know how this is going to work.[00:38:40] And [00:38:42] the calming kind of words are, they, customers will always know more than you do about the product. People are obsessed with this brand, but to say, you know what? I don't know, but I'm going to find out I'm going to help you learn how to use this. I'm going to find someone who's an expert in this particular skill of what you're looking for.[00:39:01] And if you can say, you know what, I don't have any idea how to do that, but I'm going to find someone that does, can calm it down. And the customer's like great, happy to make that happen. So I also think we don't always want to put so much pressure on ourselves. Everyone at every store has to be an expert in everything it's not realistic, but we can just drill down and think about expertise and putting the right people with the right customers for that specific ask that applies in all of our businesses, including, fashion for me. And I love this idea of it. Every experience should be unique and individual based on what the customer came in looking for.[00:39:41] Ricardo: [00:39:42] Yeah. I agree with that absolutely critical to deliver a great service that you want to have in your store. So Jeff, thank you for that question. [00:39:50] Question from Tim Tang[00:39:50] Ricardo: Tim, do you have a comment or question for us? [00:39:52] Tim Tang: Yeah, the question I wanted to ask you was, when we think about retail and we think about employment, frontline workers in retail, there's an enormously high turnover rate, as well as, some studies suggest, suggested very low engagement rate.[00:40:06] And I was wondering if you were aware of any progress or any meaningful innovations or any changes, in recent years on those two fronts.[00:40:15] Ron: Hi Tim. To answer your question on, on evolutions of the, great part about some of the technology that we're talking about, that there are ways to survey teams more quickly. So there's, apps like butterfly that where you can, you're in constant contact of how, how are you feeling today?[00:40:34] Kind of on a, on a scale of different faces or on numbers. How are let's check in with you about how [00:40:42] you're feeling, which is a really important, component to emotional leadership today, emotional intelligence. So you're, kind of constant checking in and, feeling connected, but I think , more importantly than anything that the quality and the intent of retail leadership today at the store level specifically, but at the multi-store space that all of us today in any kind of retail leadership that touches store teams and has influence on that experience, it is really our responsibility to do that in a way that is more emotionally, engaged than ever before.[00:41:20] And I think the idea of store visits that are checklist of numbers and. Store operations and audits and things that seem very tactical are really a thing of the past. And today I just, I was in stores all week. And what I did was spend time on the floor, talking to the teams, engaging with customers side by [00:41:42] side, learning how they're, how they feel learning, how they're experiencing the math challenge of week two and what it all means.[00:41:52] And that actually goes a really long way to engaging with those teams and say, I really appreciate that. Ron spent the day on the floor with selling with us today, and [00:42:01] I was able to ask questions and I was able to get solutions and hear what's happening at the company today. We just have to be closer than we've ever been before to what's really happening face-to-face with the customer and we have to listen and learn and act and engage and be curious more than ever before. And that's, that's what will change our industry. And that's how teams are repaying. And you, you learn, I come back to the office today with armed, with so much information about spending the week on the sales floor and about how people really feel.[00:42:37] And I can pretty much guarantee that those people I engage with [00:42:42] are happy that someone listened to them this week. I hope that answers your question.[00:42:48] Tim Tang: I think that's an interesting perspective, I mean that it's, if I'm hearing you correctly, it's the idea of using that customer feedback. That's kind of a motivator for the employees and you mean something to be celebrated, something to be highlighted, but it's, that kind of, positive feedback to get encouraged more out of the employee base.[00:43:06] Ron: Yeah. I actually think the employee feedback is more important than customer feedback sometimes. So that's the first thing that I would ask is how do you feel, how was your experience working here right now? How you feel having the math conversation it's uncomfortable. Let's do this together so that you can feel more comfortable when someone comes in and, wants to have a more difficult conversation.[00:43:27] So their feedback about their experience as an employee drives the customer experience that drives the business. And that's, why I would talk about surveys or being really close to them. That's what's going to change the game [00:43:39] Brandon: That ties back, Ron [00:43:42] to outstanding employee experience, customer experience. And you, you can say once that the, this empowered customer who has access to data to other brands and social media channels picked up once at the head of them and really personalize things.[00:44:05] Ricardo: That's a pretty impressive approach. And I say that Ron because listening to you describe how you've gone and collected that feedback on the floor reminds me of many retailer conversations that I had in years past and Tim may even remember some of these as in full disclosure for the audience, here Tim, and I used to work together.[00:44:26] And he may remember that being in some retailer meetings where we would ask them the question. When was the last time you were walked your store floor and understood both your customer and employee experience? And there, I think too many times that I remember being met with blank faces, when asking that [00:44:42] question?[00:44:42] And I always thought to myself, wondering how could they not have had a response for that? How could we be in a room full of retail executives that didn't have an immediate answer as to not only when was the last time they did this, what kind of feedback did they get? I would expect this is something you should know, because you're not going to be able to improve on your associates environment.[00:45:01] You're not going to be able to improve on that customer experience without ongoing feedback. And I don't think it's sufficient to claim that the feedback process could just be asking customers to fill out a response form and an email post-transaction or asking employees to do the same thing at the end of their Workday.[00:45:19] So please go in and fill out this survey form, but tell us how the day went. You really want to get that direct one-on-one feedback to really understand exactly how things are going. [00:45:29] Ron: And I would just add the store teams know that. And when decisions are made in the C-suite by people who have not spent time in stores and it impacts them, that's where [00:45:42] the problem lies is in the turnover happens because the responses will, did they not understand what we do every day? How hard this is the conversations that we have to have, and the workload that happens every day in brick and mortar stores. There's an assumption that people that sit in our leadership chairs don't understand that. And if you can demonstrate your at least willingness to show up and listen, you may not be able to solve every problem. If you use just show up and you say hello, I went to Greenwich the other day and some new team members.[00:46:14] And just to be able to sit in the morning, have a coffee, listen, where did you work before? I'll like, that will keep them going for months. And it was very little effort on my part and a huge return. And that's what all of us in leadership, we have to do that more. And particularly today, they're in a very difficult situation of being customer engaging.[00:46:37] Not only last year, it's still hard today. And that's why I just [00:46:42] encourage everyone be as close as you can, to the people doing the work technology aside. The human conversation goes a really long way. [00:46:49] Shish: Yeah. That's the great point also from the employee perspective, one of the things I'm looking at is, stores are putting more emphasis on customer engagement and employee spending more time with customers versus doing mundane jobs. And that's another transformation I'm seeing where automation comes in.[00:47:09] A very common example that I'm seeing in terms of automation is, on-shelf availability where almost every retailer is. Automating that in the past, it was, employees going round and making sure that the products are on shelf. And today they're looking at cameras and sensors to do that job so that the store associates can spend that time engaging with customers rather than doing that.[00:47:35] Ricardo: Yeah, that is absolutely an interesting point. And we could probably another room just on that topic alone and [00:47:42] going through the reality versus perceptions, right, automation, AI, and machine learning. What does that mean for other jobs? Whether we're talking about frontline staff or other roles within a retail organization, where's the balance you can draw between those areas.[00:48:00] So thanks Tim . That was a great, topic to touch on.[00:48:02] Question from Jeff Sward[00:48:02] Ricardo: Jeff, What was your question or comment for us and welcome to the stage. [00:48:06] Jeff Sward: Actually, the last conversation is going to be a perfect segue for my question, which is how does the frontline associates become, more useful, I guess, in helping the whole company understand the why of best sellers and worst sellers. Ron was describing these great interactions between sellers and customers that are data-driven about past history and prior purchases. So when the customer buys something, the system captures all the hard information, but it doesn't capture is the [00:48:42] why, why was something that bestseller, why was something a worst seller. Nobody sets out and puts worst sellers in the stores to begin with. So what happens? [00:48:53] Brandon: It's a great question. And I think that that's where it'd be social selling aspect comes in, that the sentiments could be the emotional multisensory sentiments through Instagram and Twitter and other feedback loop that retailers will receive from the customers. And it's not captured within the transactional systems, ERP systems, et cetera, social commerce, digital marketing is where that system lies.[00:49:18] So I think it's a very complex challenge to capture all the emotional sentiment, but that might be a place to start.[00:49:24] Shish: I totally agree. I think it's a data challenge. Many of the retailers that I work with, look at the other influencing data factors that will tell them why something a best seller. And this could be anything from the demographics around the store and the correlation of a certain [00:49:42] product or plan with that demographic, being the cause, it could be something going viral on the internet.[00:49:49] It could be other factors and influences that make something a best seller. And a lot of times is the inference models that they build from the combinations of data. And that typically is one of the approaches that many retailers use. [00:50:05] Ron: Yeah. And it's Ron. I would just add, I think again, Jeff, the more we can engage with the sales teams that are selling the product the better. So there's definitely feedback that can come through customers on social, or maybe it's live selling and you can capture information via chat.[00:50:22] There's a lot of ways to learn, but my office that's right out in front of, the design team for our own private label at intermix. And, you know, I spend a lot of time with them about this is what I've seen. This is what I've heard. Let's bring a team of New York stylist to the office and give you feedback from sketch review.[00:50:41] Like I [00:50:42] I'm, we're doing walkthroughs on sketches before they even become samples before fit before production. Like we stayed so close to it every step of the way so that we try to minimize the risks and the misses. I recognize that that's a small business compared to many people on this phone, but it's important that at every and every part that we've listened and we've learned and we've acted accordingly. , and I think the benefit from that is enormous.[00:51:11] Jeff Sward: Great, thanks, Ron. [00:51:12] Ricardo: Thanks, Jeff. For that question - good discussion topic, [00:51:16] Question from Amanda Fetch[00:51:16] Ricardo: Amanda, what is your question or comment for us? [00:51:19] Amanda Fetch: Yeah. Hello, thank you so much for the opportunity to join the stage. I know that the wave of the future has been to the point of the topic of the room, the future of frontline staff and how that's been sort of disappearing. We had, for example, Amazon Go in Rock Center where there is nobody to basically check you out. And, how now we have tech companies pivoting off of Amazon, like Facebook, [00:51:42] who is looking to have the live shopping Fridays and things like that.[00:51:45] Where again, it's not totally eliminating what we want to call a checkout. There's a human being involved, but again, it's online. So you still have the tech aspects, but so what I wanted to present to the panel and hear your thoughts on is what about, the customer of, for example, a Lulu lemon where their core is assisting the customer, what they like to call was more educating their customer on the fabrics and on the brand of things of that nature.[00:52:10] So I'm curious to hear your thoughts on companies like that. As the world's going to this really tech and to the point of the room, you know, future front Line staff.[00:52:18] If they start disappearing, what happens to companies or retailers like Lulu lemon, will they survive if we start seeing less and less of these, how do you see companies like that weathering this sort of tech storm that's coming on the horizon there? [00:52:33] Ricardo: Thank you for bringing up this topic. Where are we headed in the reality of more automation versus human interaction the [00:52:42] way frontline staff operationally works in a store as well as interacts with customers, as well as what's the customer preference going to be.[00:52:49] If we think about our consumers and what they expect when they come to the store. I think a lot of this depends on what the brand relationship is with the consumer I would argue that, for a Lululemon there is a consumer expectation that when they come to the store, they know they can count on the staff there.[00:53:05] Would that same customer have a similar expectation if they knew that they were going to be greeted by some kind of AI or a bot or some other automated process instead of a human being, I don't know that that would meet the customer's satisfaction for a brand like Lululemon.[00:53:21] I think that becomes a differentiator. So while there could be a discussion in a board room at Lulu lemon that says. You know, is our labor costs getting too high? Do we need to balance our a rising labor costs with some form of automation to handle certain customer interactions? I think they're going to conclude that they can't just [00:53:42] ignore this aspect.[00:53:43] I think that the filter you can apply to this is to say, is the brand relationship purely transactional.[00:53:49] If it is, then chances are a lot of that relationship could be replaced with automation, and to the retailer that's probably a cost saving exercise at some level. If that relationship is not purely transactional, if it's really based on what I think everybody on the stage would define as a real brand relationship where there's an emotional connection for the customer.[00:54:10] I personally don't believe that those relationships can be easily replaced with automation in that way. I think it requires a person to be involved, and I think it's required from the customer's point of view, but would younger generations be more okay with the thought of being greeted by some form of AI or automation rather than a human being versus an older generation?[00:54:33] I don't know that I can predict. But I think that would just be another interesting way to look at. [00:54:38] Jeff: I love that question so much because, I get asked all the [00:54:42] time is, so what is retail doing? Literally they're doing everything at all all the same time. So when I start thinking about, the role of automation and AI, there's clearly going to be a very significant chunk of retail that is going to embrace that. And there's going to be clearly another chunk of retail that's not. It's going to be high touch, high experience. And the best example I can point to right now is in an in and out burger, in and out burger has always paid well above market rate for, for really fast food jobs. And people go there. Me included, literally go by far cheaper solutions and sit in pretty darn long lines because we want that experience.[00:55:16] And I love the fact that people like that experience. And I love the fact that a retailer has created an opportunity for fast food workers to actually become, real career opportunities and a whole lot of people that are going to be running companies in 10 or 15 or 20 years really got their start there under that training.[00:55:32] So the answer is, we're going to see it's going to be the future is going to be all of the above. The key thing is what do people want and what do people want from their [00:55:42] retail experience. That's also going to be the big driver. So if, if all of a sudden the next three or four years people say, you know, I like the human touch. I don't want to be greeted by an AI. Retailers will respond. I think there clearly will be a lot more automation and there's clearly going to be a lot more people involved.[00:55:58] Ron: I definitely agree with, Jeff. I think it will depend on the business, but I would say today where we sit in the way the client is behaving, that her expectation of engagement and the time spent in the store and the amount of energy that goes into these very human interactions has never been higher.[00:56:18] And that may be a surge of, having spent 18 months online and really craving that human interaction. But I don't think it's going to completely pendulum swing the other way. I think there will always be a need for great human engaged selling, educational, retail. And for me that, that the best version of that, not just [00:56:42] in luxury will be the ones that kind of set the bar for

Today is November 3rd and while that's just a normal Fall day for many...For some, it's their birthday. So we're going to go around the room...I'll give you the name of a famous person who's celebrating their birthday today, and you have two guesses to give me their exact age. After your first guess I'll tell you higher or lower. Alexis: How old is TikTok star Swaggy Saraaa (she's got 1.2 million followers) Brooke: How old is TV actress Roseanne Barr? Jose: How old is former NFL Quarterback Colin Kaepernick? Jeff: How old is Kendall Jenner?

HOUR 1: Patrick Chung announced his retirement this morning. Kyle Van Noy is returning. So how will the 2021 Patriots defense look? The Patriots have made calls to the Raiders about QB Marcus Mariota. Jeff How reports the Patriots are not actively shopping Stephon Gilmore. 3-18-21 See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

TABLE OF CONTENT TALKING POINTS Episode 362-28-2021(Host Scene)Zazz - Welcome to Table of Content. A show by streamers for streamers and the wonderful people who support them. I am Zazzaboo your host and the Editor in Chief of TableOC.com. We have two great streamers here tonight ready to drop their opinions on us about the latest but first~Welcome StumpAlso now that we are on a new channel that is un affiliated you can support the podcast by subscribing to our patreon. There is special content there for all subscribers including My personal Vlog. You can subscribe for that same $5 like you would on Twitch or if you would like to there are several higher tier subscriptions to help fund the News sight and the podcast.As always we love your support no matter if it's monetary, hate mail or just keeping us company in chatIntro guests -For the first time ever on the show fatLincoln Jeff. Welcome.We are also joined again fresh out of the gym, sporting massive gains The TigheCon of Twitch TighefighterX1Streaming NewsShares Scary Encounter That Forced Her to End Her Stream AbruptlyFirst, Any time a streamer goes live anything can happen. IRL streams tend to have the craziest things happen but not generally when you are in your own home.From essentially sports dot comTricia “Triciaisabirdy” Wang is one of top cooking streamers on the platform. The 27-year-old chef who trained at the famous Le Cordon Bleu in Paris has one of the best streams for Japanese cuisines. But the full-time professional chef had to endure a nightmare on her stream live because of troubling nuisance.In her latest stream, Triciaisabirdy was streaming like most days. While cooking seared scallops with balsamic caviar, lemon curd and parsley oil, the stream had a very unusual moment when an unknown voice could be heard. Tricia was unsure on what was happening, but something felt definitely wrong.An intruder had entered her home.Tricia at first couldn't comprehend what was happening, which led her to ask her roommates. She asks the intruder to leave her house, who, in turn, asks her to come with him. After realizing that someone had broken into her house, she asked her roommate to call the police. Before the incident moves on further, Tricia ends her stream, leaving everyone worried about her.Tricia continued to update her viewers on the incident through her Twitter handle. She posted a tweet after the intruder was arrested by the police and believed that the person was mentally unstable. She told her fans that the intruder's intention was to save her and called her a princess in need of help.Just a note out there to weird stalkers. No streamer gives a crap about you or needs you to come meet them in real life. Please get help for your delusions from a professional.Tighe - What can we as streamers do to make these trolls and freakazoids realize this shit is not ok.https://pitchfork.com/news/distrokid-announces-new-twitch-affiliate-partnership-program/In our first piece of news, yet another company has teamed up with twitch to allow their partners to circumvent the requirements for affiliate status.From pitchfork.comDistroKid has announced a new partnership with Twitch to offer artists a path to join the Twitch Affiliate Program, which enables streamers to earn money via the platform. In order to qualify, artists must first have a release live on DistroKid for at least 30 days and have a minimum of three streams on Spotify. Artists who meet those criteria and apply will be accepted into the Twitch Affiliate Program. “DistroKid member artists do not need to meet any additional requirements or criteria,” according to a representative.Jeff- How do you feel about artists being able to bypass the metrics you and I had to work for?Twitch (Hilariously) Replaces Metallica BlizzCon Performance With Elevator MusicTwitch once again makes a PR misstep. This time in their Blizzcon coverage which is bringing the DMCA controversy back to the forefront and ironically this gaff includes Killjoy OG's Metallica.From THRTwitch users were in stitches Friday night when the gaming channel of the live streaming service placed lame music over Metallica rocking out at BlizzCon.The iconic band was part of the opening ceremony of the annual gaming convention held by Blizzard Entertainment.And as soon as James Hetfield and gang began to rock their classic, "For Whom the Bell Tolls," Twitch piped in generic, boring (free) music to avoid a Digital Millennium Copyright Act takedown order. It appears only the Twitch gaming channel replaced the music.Between the laughs, fans pointed out the band was one the most outspoken acts when it came to creating musical streaming laws, suing Napster in 2000.Last year, guitarist Kirk Hammett said the band's battle against streaming was, in hindsight, a lost causeStump -  Once again twitch steps in it. What do you see as a solution to their seemingly never ending series of gaffs?Tech/Gaming NewsEpic will pay off class-action loot-box settlement with in-game currencyEpic is set to fork over some cash as the result of a lawsuit which included those dastardly loot boxes.Here's what arstechnica had to sayEpic is set to settle a class-action lawsuit over its use of randomized loot boxes in Fortnite's "Save the World" mode by paying affected players with in-game currency. Rocket League players who previously purchased loot boxes in that game will also receive an in-game payment.While Epic never offered loot boxes in Fortnite's mega-popular battle royale mode, it let "Save the World" players purchase "loot llamas" full of random items until early 2019 (amid international outcry about the randomized loot-box business and its similarity to gambling). Shortly after ending the practice, Epic was faced with a class-action lawsuit alleging, among other things, that it had "psychologically manipulate[d] its young players into thinking they will 'get lucky.'"Under a proposed settlement for that suit, which Epic says has achieved preliminary approval, all players who purchased a loot llama at any time will be rewarded with 1,000 V-Bucks (worth roughly $8). Even though it's settling a US lawsuit, Epic says this same deal will apply to all Fortnite players globally.Epic estimates roughly 6.5 million Fortnite players and 2.9 million Rocket League players will receive the automatic virtual currency payments, according to The Verge. That suggests a rough valuation of over $78.3 million in digital reward payouts as part of the settlement. [Update: An Epic spokesperson has clarified to Ars Technica that these numbers only cover the US players who will be receiving the digital currency payout. An undisclosed number of non-US Fortnite players will also be receiving the 1,000 V-Bucks.]Jeff - Is it reasonable for this to be settled with in game loot and currency?Twitter announces paid Super Follows to let you charge for tweetsTwitter announced a pair of big upcoming features today: the ability for users to charge their followers for access to additional content, and the ability to create and join groups based around specific interests. They're two of the more substantial changes to Twitter in a while, but they also fit snugly into models that have been popular and successful on other social platforms.The payment feature, called Super Follows, will allow Twitter users to charge followers and give them access to extra content. That could be bonus tweets, access to a community group, subscription to a newsletter, or a badge indicating your support. In a mockup screenshot, Twitter showed an example where a user charges $4.99 per month to receive a series of perks. Twitter sees it as a way to let creators and publishers get paid directly by their fans.Twitter also announced a new feature called Communities, which appear to be its take on something like Facebook Groups. People can create and join groups around specific interests — like cats or plants, Twitter suggests — allowing them to see more tweets focused on those topics. Groups have been a huge success for Facebook (and a huge moderation problem, too), and they could be a particularly helpful tool on Twitter, since the service's open-ended nature can make it difficult for new users to get started on the platform.Tighe - Some people were trending #riptwitter when this news came out. Do you think a monetization option is a bad idea here?https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/22/22296209/elon-musk-starlink-speeds-double-2021From the vergeStarlink, SpaceX's satellite-based internet provider, will double in speed “later this year”, according to a tweet by Elon Musk, posted as a reply to someone who had just received their Starlink beta kit (via CNET). The company currently promises speeds between 50 to 150Mbps, and Musk specifically calls out a 300Mbps goal in his tweet.While 300Mbps isn't unheard-of speed, it's faster than many people currently have access to, especially in the low-to-medium population density areas that Musk talks about targeting in a second tweet.In the reply, Elon also tells the person that their latency should improve to around 20ms as well. In the speed test screenshots, their latency was at 34 and 44ms respectively, while Starlink's website says to expect between 20 and 40ms during the beta.The speed increase and latency improvements should come as a nice surprise to anyone who put down a $100 Starlink pre-order. However, it's well known that Elon's promises about the future should be taken with a grain of salt, especially if they're about timelines. Still, this shows that SpaceX is looking to speed up Starlink, and it might be able to keep pace with what's available from a copper wire running to your house.Stump - In an area like ours where we only have 1 choice for internet do you think this service will make a good competitor?Entertainment NewsSpider-Man 3 Title Officially Revealed: No Way Home - Screen RantLastly from screenrantSpider-Man 3 is officially titled Spider-Man: No Way Home. Marvel Studios and Sony Pictures Entertainment's collaboration on the web-slinging hero has come a long way since it first started in 2015. It was followed by Tom Holland's Peter Parker debuting in Captain America: Civil War and since then, he's appeared in a Marvel Cinematic Universe film every year. That includes two solo movies, as well as two Avengers projects. Now, the character will embark on another standalone adventure.Not much is known about the plot details for Spider-Man 3 as of now, but it sounds like it's shaping to be one of the most interesting projects in MCU Phase 4. While Holland and other filmmakers have been mum about narrative specifics, they've been hyping the project as they're currently in the middle of production. Several set images have also made their way online, giving an idea about what to expect from the blockbuster. More recently, Marvel Studios and Sony Pictures Entertainment have started marketing the film with the release of the first look on the movie, as well as some fake titles just to troll the public.It's also exciting to finally know the movie's title, especially after the many fake outs. Audiences have been speculating about the sequel's name since it was first announced, with No Way Home even trending on Twitter just ahead of the reveal. Considering most assume the movie will focus on the multiverse, the title makes a lot of sense. It's entirely possible Holland's Spider-Man will find himself on a different world or in a different timeline, perhaps aided by Tobey Maguire or Andrew Garfield's Spider-Men. With so many rumors and reports already swirling about Spider-Man: No Way Home, the newly revealed title should only increase the speculation. Hopefully, more information will be revealed as the movie nears its release date later this year.Jeff - What are you looking forward to with this possible multi spidey crossover?Batman's next comic series is a Fortnite crossoverDC Comics and Fortnite developer Epic Games are joining forces on a new Batman and Fortnite-themed crossover comic book. The six-issue miniseries, titled Batman / Fortnite: Zero Point, will debut on April 20th. Two issues will then launch in both May and June before the series concludes with a final issue on July 6th.Longtime Fortnite fans might have perked up at the mention of the Zero Point, a reality-warping ball of energy that is hovering over the middle of the Fortnite island and is the catalyst for this season's many brand crossovers. (Just yesterday, Ellen Ripley and the Xenomorph from the Alien series were added to the game.) It seems the Zero Point will play a key role in this comic miniseries, according to this plot summary:“A crack splits the sky above Gotham City... a tear in reality itself. This rift pulls the Dark Knight into a bizarre and unfamiliar world, with no memory of who he is or where he came from...Batman has been drawn into Fortnite!As he fights to recall his past and escape an endless loop of chaos and struggle, he'll come face-to-face with the likes of Renegade Raider, Fishstick, Bandolier, and more. While the world's greatest detective strives to make sense of this strange new world, he'll uncover the shocking truth about the Island, what lies beyond the Loop, and how everything is connected to the mysterious Zero Point.”Print issues will have codes for DC-themed in-game Fortnite items inspired by the comic, and US subscribers to the DC Universe Infinite app will get the full series and codes for the in-game items for free.Tighe - As someone who is not a fan of Fortnite how does this make you feel?https://www.cinemablend.com/news/2563302/dcs-blue-beetle-movie-just-took-a-major-step-forward?pv=related_list Lastly, He may be a lesser known character but he is definitely an interesting one and one that this host looks forward to seeing on the big screen.From cinemablendIt's still a mystery as to how the DC Comics universe will move forward with an overall plan of action. With both the Aquaman and Wonder Woman franchises acting as holdovers from the originally planned DC Extended Universe, there's room for new heroes like Blue Beetle to join in on the fun. And now, the long-planned film adaptation of Jaime Reyes's antics has just taken a major step forward, landing Angel Manuel Soto as its director.This information was reported by The Wrap, as movement on the Blue Beetle solo film has made that momentous leap into action. Soto's work as a director could recently be seen with the HBO Max original Charm City Kings, and now that film has helped catapult him into a prime directing gig on this Warner Bros / DC Comics project. Rounding out the team of talent crafting this new story is writer Gareth Dunnet-Alcocer, whose previous projects include the still developing remake of Scarface.Here's the part where the usual caveats come in, so grab some snacks and a drink, because it's time to temper those expectations. Blue Beetle currently has no plot details, no casting information, and no intended release date in mind for its finished product to debut. However, we do have a new clue as to when we can expect everything to fall into place, as this report states that Blue Beetle is supposed to go into production at some point this fall.And, of course, DC Comics fans are probably wondering if Booster Gold will somehow play a part of the proceedings. It's a fair consideration, as he's typically associated with the Blue Beetle series, and the two have teamed up in the past.Which brings us to another question when it comes to Blue Beetle's ultimate endgame: what side of the DC Comics Tone Spectrum will the movie land? Is Blue Beetle better suited as a super serious origin story that brings Jaime's origins into dramatic life? Or, with his association with Booster Gold, does that mean that Mr. Reyes would be better fit to make a funnier, lighthearted adventure?Stump - I am a little sad we wont get Ted Kord as blue beetle. How do you feel about this being a movie more than an ongoing series?BOLD PREDICTIONSPlug your stuff.Zazzaboo plug the site, Pod etcDon't forget to check out the patreon.Thanks and we will see you next week!★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Without question, the last several months have accelerated ecommerce adoption and drastically changed consumer behavior. The entire sales lifecycle from finding a prospect to closing the deal has been turned upside down. Now two key obstacles lie in the path of ecommerce leaders… The first is the more obvious, more discussed problem: How do you operationally and technically need to change to meet your customers' evolving needs?  The second key obstacle is not as often addressed, but is equally as important: How do you then communicate to your customers that even in these changing times, you are equipped and ready to meet their new needs?  The binding and laminating business doesn’t sound like it would be ripe with insights into answers to both of these questions, but Jeff McRitchie, the VP of eCommerce at Spiral, is here to prove that assumption wrong.  Jeff has nearly two decades of experience in the ecommerce and digital space. Just last year, his own company, MyBinding.com, was acquired by Spiral, where he now helps lead ecommerce operations. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Jeff explains what it has been like merging his ecommerce business with a more traditional binding company. He shares some of the challenges he faced along the way, and what methods and strategies he’s leaned into to find success. Jeff also discusses tips for building out a winning SEO and content strategy, and how ecommerce is playing a larger role across the entire business, including in customer acquisition and content marketing.  Main Takeaways:   The Merge: When a primarily ecommerce company merges with a larger more traditional business, there are a lot of balls in the air to create a cohesive and efficient system. Most of the adjustments have to be made on the side of the acquiring company, which needs to learn how to compete in a digital marketplace. That means that education has to be a priority both internally and externally.    Use Their Words: Every industry has jargon and industry-speak. It’s easy to fall into the trap of using that language throughout your platforms and channels. Instead, you have to meet customers where they are with their own language, and use the words and phrases they use. This will ensure that your customers feel like you are speaking directly to them and it also helps create more longtail SEO opportunities. Content For Now that Pays Off Later: Some of the most-viewed content you create might be consumed after a customer makes a purchase. On the surface, that might make it seem like content-creation is not a good customer acquisition strategy. On the contrary, it’s actually a critical long-term strategy in the sense that good, useful content is critical for brand awareness and building trust, which customers will remember when they need to buy in the future. For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Welcome to another episode of Up Next In Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles. Today on the show, we have Jeff McRitchie, the VP of Ecommerce at Spiral Binding, My Binding and Binding 101. Jeff welcome. Jeff: Thank you. Stephanie: Thanks for coming on the show. I was excited when I was looking through Spiral's background. It looked like you guys started in 1932. Is that right? Jeff: Yeah. I mean, we've been around for a long time. Stephanie: Yeah. I think that'll make for a really fun conversation because I'm sure that the company and you have seen a lot of transformation over the years, so that'll be fun to dive into later. Jeff: For sure. Stephanie: Tell me a bit about Spiral. What is it? How do I think about what you guys do? Jeff: So Spiral is really a company and we've built ourselves around helping people to bind presentations and proposals. We do a little bit of laminating. We do a little bit of other things, but really we focus a lot on binding. We sell the equipment and the supplies for people to be able to bind presentations, proposals, books and training materials. Those are probably the primary things that come out of it. Jeff: We're a niche player in the office products market is one way to think about it. We're an interesting a hybrid of a company because we sell a little bit in B2B, a lot in B2B, a lot in B2C or B2B to C sort of space. Then we also have some really interesting national account sort of business as well. Kind of a little bit of an evolving company, we're a manufacturer and a distributor at the same time. We have lots of different faces which presents some really cool challenges from the standpoint of being in a digital transformation or Ecommerce role. Stephanie: Okay cool. So how long have you been at the company for? Jeff: My story is interesting, actually I'm co founder of a company called My Binding about 17 years ago. Last year we sold to Spiral. I've been with Spiral for just over a year now in this sort of digital transformation role but with My Binding, which was more of a pure play Ecommerce space. We grew and we were the largest sort of binding Ecommerce player in the market. Then all of a sudden we joined forces essentially with Spiral, which was the largest sort of B2B player in the market. Now we're one force together going after the binding and laminating market. Stephanie: Oh, interesting. What was that process like where you had your own company, you guys were selling online and then joining a company that maybe wasn't doing as much of that. What was that process like when it came to incorporating your company into an existing older company? Jeff: There's definitely some upsides. Suddenly you have increased purchasing power, you have more access to talent and capital. Those were amazing things, but the integration side of things is tough. Jeff: I mean, you're trying to merge systems and figure out how everything works together and learn the language of a new company. Some of that stuff is not as easy as it should be, as well as trying to figure out where exactly are they on the landscape of digital transformation and how do you navigate that when... We were pretty much an Ecommerce or digital first organization. That wasn't really their background. Now we're figuring out how do we be both? That's a pretty big challenge actually. Stephanie: Yeah. That sounds really difficult. What does the customer journey look like for Spiral or what did it look like compared to My Binding? Jeff: I guess the best way to think about it would be that in a B2B, B2C sort of Ecommerce experience, we were really building our business around a large number of transactions with a large number of customers, essentially small transactions to a large number of customers. On the more traditional B2B model, the traditional side of the Spiral business would have been around a small number of transactions to really big customers. Which is pretty typical when you look at this idea of traditional B2B and more like an Ecommerce B2B sort of experience. At least a B2B, to C sort of experience. Jeff: That was the really interesting thing is that we were dealing with customers from all over the country that in almost every industry that you can imagine, but most of them were rather small and we are filling specific needs for those customers. That was fine. On the spiral side you were looking and saying, hey, they had deep relationships. Relationships that went back decades, in many cases, with organizations where they were the supplier of choice. They had complex contracts and all those kinds of things. That was never really part of the Ecommerce world. Trying to figure out how do you merge those two together to get the best of both. It's not easy, but it's really fun actually. Stephanie: Yeah. I can imagine it takes a lot of training for their existing customers who are used to those contracts and used to things being done a certain way. How are you maybe going about training the customers who are used to doing things the old way to be like, Hey, we actually can do this online usually. Jeff: Slowly. Stephanie: Any lessons there that someone can take away if they're going through the same thing right now within their org? Jeff: You don't have to do it all at once. Our approach is really to allow customers to interact with us the way they want to interact with us by giving them better options. Really the priorities for this past year have been to try to integrate systems and then upgrade our footprint so that we can allow the company to put its best foot forward. Really starting with the E-comm side and getting everybody on the same platform and then tied into the same systems. Jeff: Now we're actually probably just a couple of months away from launching our brand new B2B E-com experience for the traditional spiral customers. Essentially we have been allowing them to continue to exist and deal with the company in the way that they used to while improving the experience and then bringing the platform up for the entire organization. One of the things about especially B2B commerce is that it gets really complicated as you tie in lots and lots of systems and a lot of interesting rules. Jeff: Customers want to deal with you in the way that they want to deal with you. What we've found is that we have to build specific experiences for our different customer types. That's the approach that we've been taking. I think that's a good approach from the standpoint of, you're not trying to force everybody into the same sort of experience because not everybody wants to deal with it in the same way. As a large organization that sort of deals with these sort of different challenges, we have to answer questions, like, do you display pricing on the front end of your website or is it a login only experience? Jeff: What pricing do you show people or what price pricing do people get and how do you control that and how do you manage that and how do you make sure that that experience is personalized for individuals? Then there's the age old question, which is really challenging in an organization that has multi channels and that is, how do you deal with the channel conflict? Whose customer is that? I guess it depends on who you would ask because everybody thinks that the customer is theirs. Yet ultimately the customer needs to deal with the organization in a way that the customer feels the most comfortable, not in the way that the organization feels most comfortable. Stephanie: Yeah. That makes sense. What kind of legacy or what things did the legacy customers get hung up on the most when you guys are making this transition and trying to show them that a new platform's coming? Is there similar themes of things that they're like, oh, I don't feel comfortable with that, or, I don't want to move because of this? Jeff: I think when it comes to customers, most customers want technology. I mean, they become comfortable. I think that they don't want to lose functionality. That's been probably one of the hardest things is that even if that functionality wasn't the best, they become comfortable with it and they don't really want to lose that. Yes they do want a best in class experience. One of the hard things that we all have to deal with in Ecommerce right now is that the bar has been raised. Jeff: There are people who want more and more features in terms of their online shopping experience. What you find is that you need to be able to roll these things out, but you need to make sure that it doesn't make things harder on those customers, especially long time corporate customers. They are really dependent on these things working smoothly and easily. That's actually one of the hardest challenges in this process has been, okay, well, we've done a lot of cool things for customers over the years. One off, you build a feature on the website just for that one customer. Jeff: Well, trying to then redo that and not lose a substantial amount of functionality for specific customers, especially large customers that you have these really deep relationships with, that's pretty tough. Stephanie: I was actually going to ask that next, when you mentioned that you were personalizing the experience for certain customers to make them feel more comfortable or hearing what they want and trying to incorporate that into the platform, how do you go about picking out what things you should maybe personalize or give to the customer without going down a worm hole of having a personal experience for every customer? Jeff: Ultimately, we're taking an approach of first saying, what's the best in class experience that we could build. What are the things that are going to be the best for all of the customers and then looking and saying, "Hey, can we in our roadmap put in the flexibility to accommodate for these many things that customers have asked for?" Jeff: How could we build this in such a way that we can add that on or this on? I'm not sure that we always nail it just from the standpoint of... It's pretty tough to keep everybody happy. But we're taking the approach of, hey, we can make it substantially better for everybody. It may not be perfect, but it should be a dramatic enough improvement that they'll recognize that we have their best interest in mind. Stephanie: It seems like some of those requests might also fit other customers as well or it might be something where they're like, oh, I actually wanted that and never thought to ask. It could be helpful when it comes to product development on your side, like technology development. Jeff: Yeah, totally. We had a really good team that we used to build out stuff and we're able to iterate fairly quickly. That's the good news because sometimes we miss something and so... But as long as you can respond fairly quickly to a customer's need, it gives you an opportunity to serve them better and to communicate. But the other really important part of this is really getting the account managers and your sales people involved in this process so you get some really good feedback because one of the challenges that we face at least is that sometimes as the E-com department and on the technology side, you don't always get raw feedback. Jeff: Maybe the stuff you're hearing is from the people who are yelling the loudest, not necessarily from the people who are trying to help you. You're not necessarily hearing about the features that are going to make the biggest difference for most number of users. Stephanie: That makes sense. With this whole re-platforming and new tech stack that you're going to be launching what pieces of tech are you most excited about showing to the customer or bringing online that maybe wasn't there before? Jeff: For us it's really about an enhanced user experience. We kind of been a little bit on the old school side on the traditional B2B piece of it. This gives us the ability to provide a really much better experience end to end in terms of transacting with us. Some of the things that we're aiming for, that are harder than I was thinking they would be, would be real time freight quoting. When you're a B2B company and you've got a distribution network across the country, and you're trying to figure out how much that pallet is going to cost to go to this customer. You think, hey that should be super easy. That's like in the Ecommerce world, until you start to realize, well, it's really important that you get that right. You have to first know where all that's going to ship from. Jeff: One of the biggest things is a really deep integration with our ERP so we can understand where the inventory resides and then how much it weighs and the sizes and all those kinds of things so that we can do that on the fly. Because right now we do an add back type thing. We'll tell you what the freight is later. Customers don't like that. Especially not in the Ecommerce world. Getting that upfront, same with sales tax calculation. Right now, a lot of that's done on the backend and people want to know upfront. That means building a system that has management for resale certificates and all of those pieces. Jeff: I need to understand where are you exempted, where you not exempted and what are you exempt from and all of those kinds of things so that I can quote you and tell you what the sales tax is going to be upfront before you place your order. That's another piece of it that we're excited about. Requisition list is another one where people will have their own custom price list in the system where they can quickly order. We're building a system where they can upload an Excel file with all of their items that they want so they can do quick ordering and quick reordering. Jeff: I guess those would be a few of the systems. Like a quote management system to allow people to request pricing on items and then for us to respond to them live and track that inside of our system is another one that we're building. Those are all areas where we're saying, hey, this could really enhance the user's journey and make it a lot easier for them to do business with us. Stephanie: That's great. Yeah that sounds like some great changes. Have you had any customers trying out the platform as beta testers and have you seen any difference when it comes to average order value or anything? Jeff: We're not quite there yet. We finished design and we're in the midst of development at the moment. I would say that that's going to be one of those steps prior to launch. Will be first to have sort of sales associates and account managers jump into the platform and test it for themselves and then to really get especially key customers in the system testing, and then also giving us feedback. What do they love? What did they not like and how can we make it better for them? That's on the roadmap before launch to be able to say, "Hey is this better for you?" It's funny because on a traditional B2C Ecommerce launch, you'd be focusing so much on the front end. Jeff: Like, the My Account pages are taking just as much time for this site because that's where our customers are living. They want to use the search, but they really want to use the my account pages. They know what they want, and they need to be able to quickly reorder it. They need to be able to see their orders. They need to be able to have the ability to upload those requisition lists. It's a little bit of a twist but getting them, especially into those my account pages so that they can spend some serious time understanding their accounts and telling us what they like or what they don't like is going to be really important for the launch process. Stephanie: Yeah. That's really interesting about focusing on my account page and how much time they're spending there. I'm sure that things like product suggestions or also bots might be very important on that page to help showcase items that maybe they wouldn't otherwise buy when they're just quickly uploading something or just reordering. Are you guys experimenting with some of the suggestion features? Jeff: Most definitely. Yeah. That's part of the vision is to try to figure out and say, okay, we have these deep relationships with customers and they buy specific sets of products. How can we expand to purchasing a product set? How do we get them and introduce them to complimentary products and show them the right pricing and the right place so that they can say, "Hey, I should totally add that on." That's something that I should consider. It's an interesting challenge for us because we have different personas or groups of people that we're dealing with. Jeff: On one hand we're dealing with dealers and they're really reselling product. You're trying to show them maybe categories of product, where do they need to expand because they're buying for specific purposes. Then you have end users and those end users you might want to show them a different size or a different color. We're experimenting with what the best algorithm is that we can use to show them the right products and then also in the right places too. Stephanie: That's great. What tests are you most excited about that you're pitching to everyone right now and some people maybe aren't sure about? Jeff: I'm actually most excited right now about the lead gen side of our business. Stephanie: Tell me more about that. Jeff: When you start to think about what the power of Ecommerce is for a B2B organization. Ecommerce can really become the engine that powers the acquisition efforts of a company. Especially because we can get in front of hundreds of thousands of customers a month, whereas the traditional B2B sales force might only touch hundreds of customers per month. Maybe thousands, but definitely not hundreds of thousands. Jeff: The idea of... What does it take for us to build a really cool robust system to not only bring these leads in but then to try to figure out how do I score these leads and then not only take them and turn them into an immediate sale, but to determine which ones of these really can be turned into those more traditional B2B accounts that we have these deep relationships with that are going to buy from us for years to come, many tens of thousands of dollars, right? Jeff: The really exciting part to me is looking at it and saying, okay we are on the Ecommerce side, on the B2B2C Ecommerce piece of it. We almost have too many leads. We get so much traffic that comes in. So then how do you figure out, take all those leads and build a really robust system where you can make sure that they're getting exactly what they need, and you're closing as many sales as you can, but then how do you figure out a way to pass those accounts up, the right accounts to the right people so that you can build them into a much larger long term sustainable program. Jeff: For us, that means building a really cool inbound sales team that makes sure that we take care of those leads and that we foster them and do all the things that we need to do, but then building an outbound sales team as well that's going to go in and then say, "Hey, let's take these leads and take them to the next level." Then also figuring out a system for passing accounts up and down inside of the organization. You really want to be able to pass a lead up or a customer up that has substantial potential to be either a national account or what we'll call an enterprise level account. Jeff: But you also want the reciprocity of getting those accounts back or the smaller accounts back from the team. I will say that no one wants to give up that account. That's a big challenge inside of an organization when you're trying to say, "Hey, I'll give you some, you give me some." The way usually ends up being is someone... Everyone wants to receive, no one wants to give. But the system only really works if you can give the best to the... But then also that you can receive quality back. For instance, handing back to the E-com team, only the accounts that don't do any business, isn't really a win. Jeff: You really want your enterprise salespeople focused on enterprise level accounts. We're having to sort of wrestle through what does that look like in terms of structure. I don't know that we really have it all figured out yet, but it's a cool idea. Stephanie: I'm guessing there's a way to automate that and create rules. So it, like you said, can go up or down depending on certain criteria from when they're coming in. How are you all thinking about automating that process? So it's maybe less of a salespeople having to give and take and whatnot, and more like, Oh, this is automatically routed to you based on these metrics. Jeff: That's exactly what we're doing. We're exploring machine learning and big data to try to figure out a really good way of scoring customers because using that scoring, you can figure out how to pass customers up. Then a set of rules as well that says if these customers aren't of a certain size or if they have this kind of profile, they really belong in this group. But it's an interesting challenge from trying to figure out where do you get all this data from, and then how do you process it? We're exploring different options right now in terms of what that might look like and how we can best approach that without spending a ton of money before we bet that it actually works. Stephanie: Yeah. That's really cool. So outside of the prospect giving that information, what kind of things are you looking into right now to find the information to help with that scoring process? Jeff: It's actually challenging. You have certain pieces of information that are given to you which you have usually a name and an address. Their email address usually has a domain associated with it, especially in B2B. So you can pull a lot of information from that and you can start to sort your domain, your customers by domain. But really we're looking and saying, okay, well we do know the purchase history. The idea then is, okay, if you were to sort all your customers out, you can sort them on a scale of, let's say a one, two, three. You can say my best customers spend the most money with me. My worst customers spend the least amount of money with me, but that really misses part of the point. Jeff: You almost need to add a second access to this, which is really about customer potential. When it comes to customer potential, we're looking at the idea of what would it take for us to add some big data to this? To understand the size of their company and the profile of the company that they come from, or the industry that they come from as well, because the industry can be really important to us. But then the other side of it is also looking at what they purchased. Like for instance, people who purchase specific equipment or supplies, they're going to have a much higher lifetime value with us because those are proprietary or have maybe a really good pull through rate. Jeff: For instance, it may not be that it's a proprietary supply, but when you buy that machine, you have to go through a lot of supplies to make it worthwhile. You look at the data and you say, okay, that customer has a huge amount of potential. Not because of the amount that they bought from us, but because of what they bought or who they are, the company that they work for or their position. We're looking at the possibility of maybe even extending that into some of the databases out there that help you understand whether people are in market and what their roles are as well. Jeff: Because when you're dealing with B2B, you're not really selling all the time to the company, you're selling to a person inside of the company and that person has a role. You have to figure out, okay, well what role do they play in this picture? That helps us to sort them into personas. If you're dealing with a really small number of accounts, you can figure this out, but we have to automate it because it's not really feasible to do that in a one off basis. Stephanie: Yeah, definitely seems like you're going to need a whole entire data or business operations team who can build those rules out for you and have dashboards. That seems like a big project, but well worth it. Earlier, you mentioned that you guys have more traffic than you know what to do with and lots of leads coming in. Of course my first question is how are you getting this traffic? How are you acquiring potential customers? Jeff: Sure. I mean... We're in a niche industry, right? So that's part of it. We've been around for a really long time. Because of that, at least... Spiral has been around 80 years, My Binding for almost 20 on the web. As you start to look at that, we created a massive amount of content. Thousands of videos and pages. We really have in a lot of ways, the best websites in our sort of space and industry. Because of that, people are finding us to solve problems. What you find is that we built out these websites and either through SEO or through paid search we're driving a ton of traffic to the websites because they convert and that makes a ton of sense. Jeff: We're essentially... We have all of this content and it's really designed around this idea of how do we solve these problems for customers? We can drive more and more of that content. The website deals with a certain number of those sort of leads and converts on its own. The challenge for us tends to be, what do you do with the people that are maybe a little higher in the funnel? You're now talking about making sure they have a really awesome call center that is going to be able to answer those questions. Live chat is really big. We've extended our live chat hours all the way to midnight which is unheard of in the B2B space. Jeff: I want somebody there to talk to somebody if they have questions about products. Especially really big products. We're experimenting with the idea of doing triggers for live chat. We did that and that was really successful for us. We turned on the trigger and said, with the idea of if I walk into a store, somebody says, "Hey, how can I help you?" We did that on the Ecommerce site and we had massive numbers of people that were engaging with us. But the surprise to us was that many of those people were actually much higher in the funnel than we were used to dealing with. Jeff: In other words, they were now engaging with us and they weren't ready to buy. They were in the research space and they had lots of questions. Which is really cool but it just changes the model a little bit and you all of a sudden have to figure out how do I step up for that? How do I make sure that I have the right person to answer those questions? That's part of it. Driving the leads really comes to how do you acquire traffic on scale? Really good high quality traffic for the site. Then the question is, well, what can you do with it? Driving the traffic is really exciting from a standpoint of it doesn't have to be done in one way but you have to be maybe a little bit creative to do it because you really are trying to get in front of people that have problems rather than... Jeff: At least in our space, you don't come to a binding website unless you have a problem that the binding website can solve. It's not exactly an impulse purchase. You're going to show up and you're not going to just browse around. I wonder what kind of binding machines they carry. You probably are on a mission to solve some sort of problem. Right. Whether that's like your bosses told you that you need to buy a binding machine or you need to upgrade the way that your reports or presentations are going to look, or you have a deadline of Friday and you need to get these reports out for the annual meeting. Jeff: These are all sort of really common sort of scenarios and so then the question is, will this product work for my specific needs? That's a question that our customers are constantly asking. Building to that has been a really great sort of acquisition model for us to build around the idea that every customer that comes to us comes to us with a problem that we can solve for them, and then figuring out how do you work backwards to that? What problems could we solve? Then as you start to get creative with that and build massive amounts of content, that content lives out there forever. That's been really a big part of our success, is really the longevity but also the content generation sort of machine that we've built over the years. Stephanie: How has your content... What is the style now today? Is it only educational? Is it humorous and how has it evolved over time? Jeff: We've tried a lot of things over the years. We've tried to be funny. I think we think we're funny sometimes. We've tried a bunch of different things. We've tried to be really educational. It was really hard to figure out the ROI of that. What we've really... If you were to look at our content, we do a lot of content that is really close to the bottom of the funnel, but that would be really helpful. We go with that sort of helpful thing as well as deep. So the idea of building out a really robust and large set of content over the years about products. Jeff: We spend a lot of time making sure that we have all of the details about the product, even to the point where our competitors come to our sites to look up products because they don't have as good of information as we do. That's one piece of the content side of things for us. We have a lot of how to videos. We did a bunch of experimenting around the videos. We found that the videos that people really cared about would basically answer a couple of quick questions. But mostly it was, will this product work for me? How does this thing work? Jeff: We made a whole series of those videos, almost five thousand of them that are really around the idea of how does this product work and a quick demonstration essentially. Usually around a minute long that takes the product out of the box, show someone how to use it. Those really work well for us because they show a customer generally what are they looking for. A lot of customers they want to see what it looks like or they have a machine already and they want to say, "Is that's the thing that works with my machine.? They don't understand our language. Those videos have worked really well for us as well. Stephanie: That's great. Are there any surprising pieces of content that you didn't think would work that did, or surprising sources of customer acquisition that you wouldn't have looked into before? Jeff: We've had a few blog articles that have found traction in the world and the web that I wasn't really anticipating. We've written a lot of content over the years. Most of the blog articles get a little bit of traffic. They're like evergreen content, little bit of traffic over a long period of time. But occasionally we'll end up with one like... Something about how to laminate without a laminator. Stephanie: That's a good one. Jeff: Amazingly, there's a lot of people that look up that and I was shocked. It consistently drives more traffic than almost any other blog article for us. Which is odd. I'm not sure it drives a ton of business because they don't want to buy a laminator, but if you think about it, there's a whole segment of people that have maybe problems that we don't traditionally associate with our business. That would be one thing and then the other piece would be the language piece. Jeff: It's always surprising when I discover that the language that we use internally for our business doesn't match the language of the customer. An example would be we talk about binding covers all the time because we're in the world of binding. A lot of people they just talk about card stock. In the paper world, the card stock doesn't even exist. It's not a thing. People will talk about it. It's cover weight paper. Index weight paper. Card stock is like this sort of crafting term. Yet it's sort of taken on a vocabulary of its own in the world. Jeff: When people search for binding covers, often they'll use that word. That's always surprising to me as well. There's a whole list of those things where people basically they choose to use their own words to describe things. Now you're trying to figure out how do I technically be accurate about this product but really use their language? Because if you don't use their language, then you're not going to show up in search for this stuff and they're not going to feel comfortable with it. Stephanie: That's a really good reminder, especially with generational shifts that the new consumer might be using completely different language than what you're used to. How are you exploring what that language might be? I mean, especially a company that has been around since the thirties, how are they figuring out, oh, this is what they call it now, this is what the kids are saying these days? Jeff: Probably the easiest thing for us is to look through our search results and especially the no results found once because often it's those things. When people are typing in stuff in the search bar and nothing's popping up. You look at that and you're like oh... A smart merchandiser, someone who understands your products really well, they start to make those connections and they're like, oh, wait a second. That's what they mean. Obviously a lot of that like spelling mistakes and things like that. You can fix those in your search engine but when you start to look at it, you start to see sometimes patterns. That's one of the easiest ones. Jeff: The other two that are really helpful for us would be Google autosuggest. Just start typing things in Google and then figure out what Google thinks that you should add to the end of it. All of a sudden you realize, okay, maybe people are searching for maybe a slightly different side of things than we thought they were. Then the other one would be Amazon. Amazon, their product terms are awful. Yet they sell so much. Why? Because they tie into language. They have usually products that have all these different words in the titles that you would never imagine. Jeff: As you start to look at products that are really successful on the marketplaces, you can start to realize, okay, well maybe they're onto something there. They've managed to call out even the most important attributes of that product in a very search centric sort of model or they have really been able to hone in on maybe key words that we weren't thinking of when we've been building this out. Especially because often you start with whatever... A point of reference would be the manufacturer's title. It becomes quite difficult sometimes to sort of detach from that, but Amazon detaches automatically because they let people come up with their own titles for stuff. Jeff: Usually it's the sort of ecosystem that will change the title to try to optimize. Sometimes when you find really successful products that you're realizing, Oh, maybe people do care about that. Stephanie: I love that. That's really good tips to remember about, finding those keywords and how to discover them because yeah, I think even longterm key words would probably be really good for your industry. I'm thinking, how would I Google something like that? I would probably be like how to create a hard cover book for my presentation or something really long winded like that. It's a really good reminder about the keywords importance. Jeff: Then obviously you have your paid search stuff too. You can look and see in your paid search accounts, you can say, okay, what keywords are actually driving? If it was a broad or a modified broad match keyword, you're going to start to dig in and you can say, oh, it actually matched on this keyword and it drove a sale. Again, driving back and saying, okay, what am I driving sales on? It tends to be a really good place to start discovery as well. The only thing, the problem with that is that you might be so far off that you're missing the boat completely. That's where it takes a really good merchandisers to sort of nail that stuff down. Stephanie: I also think it was interesting earlier when you were talking about how to laminate without a laminator and thinking about selling something through saying, oh yeah, you don't need to buy through us. Here's how you do it because I'm sure a lot of people, like you said, are searching for stuff like that or how to fax without a fax machine. I know I've searched that quite a bit, but making fun of it and you might actually be able to convert someone who's like, Oh, I actually just do need a laminator to do this, but having a humorous video around that. Jeff: Yeah. As well as maybe they decide that they want to buy some cold laminating pouches. The idea is, if you can be really helpful in the long term, going back to that idea of video. We've done a lot of videos over the years. We understand that many, many, many times people use our videos post-purchase not pre-purchase. People are going to the video to figure out how does this thing that I already bought work. Well, that doesn't really help us but it does help us in the long term. Jeff: As you look at it and say, it's not going to win us the sale today, but it will win us brand awareness. It does potentially when you do supply sales. Because we're a very supply driven sort of space. If you think about it, if you buy a binding machine, you got to buy some supplies for it. Longterm, we want to have an awareness and be in front of customers so they understand who we are when it comes time to buy the supplies that they need. Stephanie: Just like you said, it's really important to continue to stay in front of that customer so they come to you to buy supplies and remember you guys. How do you go about doing that and keeping a customer retained? Because it seems like it would be easier with these legacy customers who are maybe in these year or three year long contracts. Now when you're moving towards Ecommerce and they can hop around really quickly, it seems like you wouldn't be able to retain customers as easily. So how do you go about staying in front of them? Jeff: I mean, there's a lot to that, the question. To give you maybe a general overview of our thoughts is a big part of our business and something that's really important to us. Especially on the E-com side of things, it really starts with delivering a really awesome experience upfront. So you need to be able to help them find what they need and then deliver it to them in a really reasonable timeframe or meet their deadline. All that kind of stuff. To have the product in stock and all of those kinds of pieces. That's actually harder said than done when you deal with a really large niche category. Jeff: That's the beginning piece of it. Once you've given them that positive experience, or if they've had a negative experience, you use your customer service to basically earn a customer for life. That's actually the motto of our customer service group. Earn a customer for life. As you look at this idea, you say, okay, well, we now have a shot at their business longterm. Now the challenge for us is, okay, what's the best way to reach them? The easiest way is email. We have a ton of automation in our emails. We send emails based upon what you've purchased with replenishment. We send life cycle campaigns based upon... Welcome to the store anniversaries campaigns, and then also best customer campaigns, win back campaigns and reactivation campaigns. Jeff: We have all these automations that go out. They're really helpful. We also have sales that go out on a weekly basis that keep people engaged and keep things front of mind for them. You combine all of that on the email side, but then you recognize that that maybe only gets you half the customers. The question becomes... Because there's a bunch that are opted out in the B2B space, it's really hard on deliverability to get into the inbox. More and more people are using advanced filtering programs to prevent spam from getting through to their employees. Jeff: As you look at that, you say, okay, well, email only takes you so far. So then what do you do? The real question is, back to that conversation we had earlier about lead scoring, how do you determine your best customers or your best potential customers and make sure that you get somebody to call them? To send them a personal email which are easier to get into their inbox or to find another way of touching them. For us right now, the two other ways of touching them that we're sort of exploring, one would be SMS and then another would be direct mail. We're kind of in the process of exploring a test on SMS. Jeff: I'm not too sure how we feel about it, honestly. We have to figure out how our customers feel about it, just from the standpoint of as you look at customers giving their personal cell phones for business purchases and getting text messages. But you think about it, that's a great way to get in front of people and stay in front of them as long as you're going to be super, highly relevant. Then the other piece of it that we do a little bit of would be on that retargeting side of things. If you don't know who that customer is exactly, or don't have their ability to email them, you can at least sort of [inaudible] do it, make sure you're sending or placing ads more frequently into their feeds on different platforms through retargeting. Stephanie: That makes sense. It seems from, especially in SMS perspective, it seems like the only angle you can go about is being helpful. Like oh, you probably are running out of supplies, order now. I don't know, you can get a discount or something. It seems like there's not too many ways for B2B companies to use texting without the customer being like, "Oh, I don't want to be thinking about work right now." Unless it's a trigger for them to be like, "Oh, I need to reorder this or else we're not going to have it on the day." Is that true or are you seeing other avenues? Jeff: Well, the first step would be to be helpful with order cycle. For instance, think about what Amazon has done with allowing you to get a text when the item is delivered. Which is a big problem for a bunch of our customers, especially in pandemic, but even outside of that. It might be delivered to a central desk or to the shipping and receiving area of their company like an alert. Alerts are a pretty good option for us to sort of get our toe in the water a little bit and to stay active. Then yes, something that's personalized. Jeff: Then also, what we're struggling with is what is the best time of day to do this? Probably don't want to send it to them in the middle of their evening. They're disconnected from work, but you also need to make sure that... It's got to be time adjusted for the time that they're in and they also really needs to be followed in their workday probably. Those are some of the things that we're sort of figuring out and testing right now and saying how is this going? Then what's also the most appropriate way to collect where people don't sort of get freaked out. Because it's one of those things, do you want to get text messages from your binding company? I don't know. You got to ask it in an appropriate way. Stephanie: Yeah. That's a really good reminder. All right. We have a couple minutes left and I want to jump into a quick lightning round brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Jeff, are you ready? Jeff: Okay. I'm ready. Stephanie: I'm going to start with the hard one first for you because I feel like you're in a game right now. I got to keep it going. What one thing will have the biggest impact on Ecommerce in the next year? Jeff: Well, I think obviously it's COVID. It's pushing people online in completely new ways. It's shifting customer expectations around a whole bunch of different things. It's ruined the Amazon two day expectation, which I don't mind, but it's also shifted the way that people shop, where they're shopping, how they're shopping, and even their mentality. I don't know that we even really totally understand how it's affected everybody yet because everybody's still sort of in this scrambling mode. But ultimately I think as this shakes out, it's going to change the landscape of how we market, but it's also going to change the landscape of how our customers interact with us. Stephanie: I like that. What one piece of advice would you give a new Ecommerce entrepreneur? Jeff: I would probably say stick with solving the customer's problems. I know that tends to be a B2B thing, but it's not really a B2B thing. If you think about it, I need the right sweater for me. Really be customer centric. That becomes really cliche and that's why I go to the idea of solving a problem. You got to think about what sort of value proposition are you offering to this customer that's unique, that is going to allow them to accomplish something that they wanted to accomplish when they came to your site. Jeff: I think by focusing and being really focused on the customer problem, I think you can build out really awesome experiences, and then that deep understanding of your customer will take you really far. Stephanie: That's a good one. What is your favorite day in the office? I'm trying to imagine what a binding company feels like. What's your favorite day in the office feel like? Jeff: I mean, most of my days are pretty full of meetings. A day without meetings would be an awesome day in the office. Stephanie: That's a lot of people. Jeff: I think so. In the world of the binding company, a day in the office doesn't look all that much different than a day in a normal office. It might be a little bit like an episode of the office. Stephanie: That's what I had in my mind honestly. Jeff: Yeah. It's like paper company. There is a little bit of aspects of that, but I mean, we're just like any other company. We're a retailer, we're a distributor. We deal with customers all day long. I would say the other thing, the best day in the office is the day that you have customers that love you and that are just heaping praises, especially on the customer service people and your salespeople. When you have customers who are just singing your praises, those are great days. Stephanie: Yep. That's awesome. I'm glad you mentioned the office and I didn't have to. If you were to have a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be? Jeff: That's a tough one. If I were to have a podcast. I am super passionate about entrepreneurship. I'd probably do an entrepreneurship sort of a podcast about starting a business, growing a business, and the creativity that goes around that. If I could get anybody on the show, I would probably pick an entrepreneur. Maybe I pick the person from lemonade stand or one of those organizations that's really making a big impact on starting up entrepreneurs with kids. That's something that I really love. Stephanie: Yep. I like that. Brings back the memories of my parents make me [inaudible] my neighbor's yard for 25 cents which is well below market. Jeff: I think you could make at least 50 cents for that now. Stephanie: I think so too. All right Jeff, this was very interesting, such a good conversation. So many good tid bits that people can actually use from this interview. Where can people find out more about you and Spiral? Jeff: Sure. You can definitely visit one of our websites. We've got SpiralBinding.com. We have MyBinding.com and Binding101.com. You can find me on LinkedIn as well. Shoot me a message and ask me to connect and I'd love to meet you. Stephanie: Awesome. Thanks so much for joining Jeff. Jeff: You're welcome. Thank you.

Jeff Grass, a serial entrepreneur, explains why it’s important to establish company culture early.PEOPLEGuest: Jeff Grass, Chairman & CEO of HUNGRYHost: Anil Hemrajani, Founder of Startup SidekickTAKEAWAYSDo not underestimate how important it is to set the culture early on versus have it evolve by defaultHave clarity around of who you are, why you exist, and how you want to operateHUNGRY’s 9 Core Values (entrepreneurial, simplicity, people centered, positivity, integrity, gratitude, urgency & determination, quality, efficiency)Tips on establishing culture in your startup: determine what’s important to the business and to the founders. Core culture should be set by founders and live by them (e.g. reference back whenever appropriate).TIMELINE01:00 Jeff: Background (born, school)01:43 Jeff: How he got involved with HUNGRY02:15 Jeff: The Why, How and What of HUNGRY03:25 Jeff: What culture in startups means and why it’s important (fabric of company, environment, mindset, glue, etc.)04:15 Jeff: Lessons learned on why to take culture seriously early on05:40 Jeff: What I would have done differently in past and have now done at HUNGRY (e.g.9 core values, shared expectations, intentionality)07:52 Jeff: What HUNGRY’s 9 core values look like in daily operations (e.g. positivity, reinforcement)11:02 Jeff: Advice on establishing culture in any startup14:27 Jeff: Handling issues (e.g. example of a conflict)16:30 Jeff: Personal time and work-life balance management (stay healthy, prioritize aggressively, turn-off work at/after dinner time, delegate)

In this episode, Gina Cocking and Jeff Guylay discuss business due diligence.  Due diligence is so important in any M&A transaction that we're devoting four episodes to the topic. Please stay tuned for upcoming episodes 004 through 006 about Due Diligence.  In addition to business due diligence, we'll cover financial, legal, and technology-related aspects of due diligence. Here are two key points from the discussion on business diligence in today's episode: 1) Organization is crucial in this process; every document will be requested, every question will be asked. 2) Prepare so that there are no surprises; every rock will be overturned.  Essentially, a seller needs to tell their advisors the good, the bad, and the ugly. You’ll see why we’ve named this episode “Uncovering the Skeletons in Your Closet”. This episode features guest Rob Humble to provide his insights from his involvement with transactions as both the buyer and seller. Rob is the Senior Vice President of Strategy and Corporate Development at IAS.  In this episode, Gina and Jeff of Colonnade Advisors address the following questions: What is due diligence? (02:18) The process of working with the management of a company and, at a very high level, learning everything that possibly can be learned about the company. Colonnade Advisors turns over every rock to understand all of the strengths and weaknesses of the company, understanding both the past, present, and future. We understand why the company does certain things, what the contracts say, and what its obligations are. We do an assessment so that when the buyer or a lender comes in, they know what they're getting into. What is examined during due diligence? (02:48) Employee records, contracts, financials, lawsuits, marketing plans, training manuals, handbooks, analyzing turnover, customer concentration, unit economics, etc. All the skeletons in the closet, everything about the business. How does due diligence affect the Purchase Agreement? (04:41) A large component of the purchase agreement is the reps and warranties section, where the seller represents that everything they have shown and shared with the buyer is true and correct, etc. The legal agreement, the purchase agreement, governs the transaction and the future. What is a confidential information memorandum (CIM)? Jeff Guylay:  “When I think about the CIM, the confidential information memorandum, or the book, that's really a mix of disclosure, risk, and market business and how great is this company and what are the future prospects... also what's happened in the past and what are the risks for a future buyer, going forward.” Who is involved in due diligence? (08:13) Gina Cocking: “It’s handled by a number of people. If it's a private equity firm, the private equity firm team members are very knowledgeable and will ask a lot of questions in the business diligence segment. There will also be consultants that are hired from time to time, specialized consultants that understand the industry or the specific product that's being done, or sometimes they're HR consultants or specific marketing-types consultants.” What happens first in Colonnade’s due diligence process? (08:55) Jeff: “When we get hired to work with a client, the first thing we do is put together a due diligence request list and a data (request) list. We get together with the company, and we spend the better part of a day, and sometimes a day and a half, going through our lists and just asking question after question after question.”  What is the purpose of Colonnade’s due diligence? (09:35) Jeff: “The point of us going through and asking all these questions is to put our investor hat on or our buyer hat on and ask 90% or 95% of the questions that they (the buyer and/or investor) are going to ask. We want to make sure that we have all the right answers...before they're required by a buyer, and we want to make sure the story is consistent.” What if there are skeletons in the closet? (10:10) Jeff: “If there are any problems, let's hear about it now, because the worst thing you want, as we've talked about, is to have surprises later on or something come up at the last minute that can kill a deal or have a major change in pricing or terms.” Gina (10:34): “I'm your business confessor, for all the ugly and dirty and you-wanted-to-hide-it-under-the-bed (items; it's) time to talk about it because it will come out later, and the worst thing is to not be prepared for when that happens, so we need to know everything.” The advisor-client relationship is one of trust. What are the first questions asked when kicking off Colonnade’s diligence session with a new client, and how do those questions add to the story? (12:49) When and where was the company formed? What is the corporate history? What are the major operating entities? What are they doing, what's the purpose of them? Is there any tail liability that we should be thinking about or carving out? Why are these questions important in the due diligence process? (13:51) Gina: “Everybody remembers a story. It's great to hear the owner's story because we often are retelling their story later on.” Jeff (14:36): “When we launch into the market..we're the front line of communications. We're expected to be able to answer 90% or 95% of the initial questions that come through. We're telling the story, and the (Colonnade) diligence process is meant to educate us, to make sure that we're as fully informed about the history and the prospects of the company as possible.” What are some of the legal aspects of the diligence process? (15:00) Gina: “Not only do we have the different legal entities, but we also have different tax structures, sometimes they're C-corps, sometimes they're S-corps, and so you have all these different legal entities, all these different tax structures.” Jeff (17:21): “This is usually where we request the name and contact information of the attorney. If you have ten entities and there is no holding company, we should probably do some leg work ahead of time and clean things up. I know we've done that on a number of deals.” (Please note that the Middle Market Mergers & Acquisitions podcast will dedicate an entire aspect to the legal aspects of due diligence) What kinds of documents are requested in the due diligence process? (18:16) Gina:  “We're going to ask for all the formation documents, operating agreements, shareholder agreements, articles of incorporation, the state articles of incorporation, that can be three or four documents per legal entity... “ Jeff (19:10): “In addition to the shareholder documentation, we're looking for board minutes, board packages, (and) all the corporate organizational materials that have been accumulated throughout the years.” What important business aspects tend to come up during the diligence process? (20:32) Gina: “An important component of any transaction is customer concentration. That has a big impact on valuation, and there's a very logical reason as to why. If a customer represents a lot of the company’s revenues, the buyer's concern is, ‘Wow, what if that customer walks? What if you lose that customer?’ And then I just bought a company and it has 60% of the revenues that I thought it had. There are a number of PE firms... where their fund will say, ‘We cannot buy a company that has customer concentration of greater than 20% for one customer or 60% for the top three customers." Jeff (22:17): “The next topic we cover when we're talking about revenue is the sales force, so sales and marketing in general. We get a good picture of what they're selling and who they're selling to, and now the question is how are they selling? Do you have a direct sales force? Is it a channel strategy? What are the different ways that this company goes to market, and how are they selling stuff?”  What are some other questions that come up during business due diligence? (22:57) Jeff: “How do you pay your sales force? What sort of non-solicitation or non-compete agreements do you have with your sales force?  How institutionalized are the relationships? How long have they been around?”  Gina (24:29): “A (common) situation is when the buyer says, ‘I would like to speak to the end customer.’  We often get into discussions with the buyers about when those conversations will happen. Jeff (25:27): “The other thing I would comment on in sales and marketing is getting a sense of competitors, so what does the competitive landscape look like? (26:02): Part of the go-to-market discussion is how are you going to market against your competitors? So, what are they doing differently than you? How do you compete against them? And how are you going to win?”  Gina (27:00): “The next area that we start looking into is marketing channels and marketing partners. Clients sometimes have a partnership where they are co-marketing with another entity. We get really excited about marketing partnerships. It's not necessarily because there are a lot of sales coming through those channels, but because of the validation that they give to the company.” Gina (28:38): “The other side of sales is the cost of goods sold. Who are your vendors? We're going to look into all of your vendor relationships.” (29:32): “We will take a look at the pricing from the vendors. We'll be looking at the contract terms with the vendors.”  Gina invites Rob Humble, Senior Vice President of Strategy and Corporate Development at IAS, who shares his perspectives from both the buy and sell sides as related to business due diligence. Gina: “How do you stay organized and keep the process moving quickly?” (32:10) Rob: “It's definitely like herding cats.  Upwards of 100 people, between advisors and internal folks. I believe, fundamentally, that time kills deals; so you have to be as efficient as possible.” It really comes down to two fundamental points in the process: 1) Preparation (Pre-game) 2) Truly committing to the sale process (Game on). “(Pre-game) we literally took our own medicine, and it took us a few months of answering our own questions before we had a data room that we felt was full. You can be much more strategic about the way that you present (the information) in your sales material, and you can also be more strategic about the rate and timing of when you release those documents. We used the diligence checklist that we use for the buying process...for creating our own internal data room.” Gina: “I think one of the biggest problems that companies run into is trying to stay the course and do their day job (running the business) while going through a sale process without all the wheels falling off the bus.” (34:00) Rob: “There are three components (to our success) that come to mind: 1) Designate a leader of the process. The best person for this is that utility player that is great at coordinating across the team and ensuring the organization is really given the attention that it deserves. You need a utility player that knows the organization, knows the people, knows the data, knows the system, and can run point for you. 2) Form a team that meets every week. That's a cross-functional team with the players that have access to the data systems and decision-making authority that you need to answer questions and have them be supported by the evidence that will ultimately get dug up in later diligence.  3) Follow a clear process. We were very careful. Gina:  “You did quite a few acquisitions over the last four or five years. But you were also involved in the sale of IAS. How did it feel to be in the hot seat? I mean, the tables were turned.” (39:00) Rob (39:17): “I loved it.  A sales process, at the end of the day, is just telling a story and supporting that story with evidence to make it as believable and credible as you possibly can. I loved the process of understanding what our story is, building the dataset to support that story, and then going out and telling the story.”  Gina: “Now, looking back on all that you've done, is there one piece of advice you would give to someone that is getting ready to go through an M&A process?” (40:07) Rob (40:36): “Get the right advisors.”  About Our Guest Rob Humble leads strategy and corporate development for IAS. Before coming to IAS Rob held strategy and corporate development leadership roles with financial services firms NetSpend and Rent-A-Center. Prior to his time in financial services, Rob held strategy, finance, and operations roles at Fortune 500 companies spanning the automotive, defense & aerospace, and chemical industries. Rob earned his bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering from Washington U. in St. Louis, graduating magna cum laude. He also holds an MBA from Harvard Business School. Rob lives in Austin, TX with his wife and two young kids. He enjoys hanging out with his family, distance running, watching Oklahoma Sooners football, and indulging in random interests including knitting, furniture building, and home improvement. Email: rhumble@iasdirect.com About Gina Cocking Gina Cocking serves as the Chief Executive Officer of Colonnade Advisors. She returned to Colonnade as a Managing Director in 2014. Gina began her career in investment banking at Kidder Peabody, was an analyst at Madison Dearborn Partners and an associate at J.P. Morgan & Co. She was a Vice President at Colonnade Advisors from 1999 to 2003. She left Colonnade to gain operating experience as the Chief Financial Officer of Cobalt Finance, a specialty finance company. She went on to become the Chief Financial Officer of Healthcare Laundry Systems, a private-equity backed company for which she oversaw the successful sale to a strategic acquirer. Gina served as the Line of Business CFO – Consumer Banking and Lending at Discover Financial Services. Gina serves on the Board of Directors of CIB Marine Bancshares, Inc., a bank holding company based in Waukesha, Wisconsin, that operates banking offices in Illinois, Indiana, and Wisconsin. Gina received her BA in Economics and an MBA from the University of Chicago. Additionally, Gina holds the Series 24, 28, 79 and 99 securities licenses. About Jeff Guylay Jeff Guylay is a Managing Director of Colonnade Advisors. Prior to joining Colonnade in 2000, Jeff was an investment banker at J.P. Morgan in the firm’s Mergers & Acquisitions and Fixed Income Capital Markets groups in New York. He also spent several years in J.P. Morgan’s Chicago office. Jeff has over 20 years of M&A and investment banking experience and has served as lead execution partner on over 25 M&A and financing transactions at Colonnade. Jeff received an MBA from Northwestern University’s Kellogg Graduate School of Management and a Master of Engineering Management from the University’s McCormick School of Engineering. Jeff received a BA from Dartmouth College and a BE from Dartmouth’s Thayer School of Engineering. Jeff holds the Series 7, 24, 63, and 79 securities licenses. Jeff serves as a director of the non-profit Nurture, an organization dedicated to enhancing the nutrition and wellness of children and families. About the Middle Market Mergers & Acquisitions Podcast Get the insiders’ take on mergers and acquisitions. M&A investment bankers Gina Cocking and Jeff Guylay of Colonnade Advisors discuss the technical aspects of and tactics used in middle market deals. This podcast offers actionable advice and strategies for selling your company and is aimed at owners of middle market companies in the financial services and business services sectors. Middle market companies are generally valued between $20 million and $500 million. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the podcast, and please consider leaving us a short review. Learn more about Colonnade Advisors: https://coladv.com/ Follow us on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/colonnade-advisors-llc_2/

One of our Facebook Group members asked Jeff: “How can I improve the way I deal with difficult people?” In this episode, Jeff answers the call with ten ways to deal with conflicting personalities, difference of opinions, and confrontation.Tune in to learn about:The 2 minute ruleThe AWE toolThe E.I. Meter and the reset buttonWhat to replace judgement withTwo questions to look beyond conflictAnd so much more!Check out the 3PHASE RADIO RESOURCE CENTER!Got a question? ASK JEFF!Support the show (https://patreon.com/3phaseradio)

In today's podcast Mason chats to Jeff Chilton. Jeff has been working in the medicinal mushroom industry since 1973 and is an absolute specialist in his field. Jeff is the founder of Nammex, the leading supplier of organic mushroom extracts in the world today. With over 40 years of mushroom growing experience, Jeff was one of the first people to bring mushroom extracts to the North American market. All you medicinal mushroom nerds out there make sure you catch this episode, Jeff is a deep reservoir of knowledge and insight!   The gents wax lyrical over: The ins and outs of mushroom harvesting. The difference between products made from mushroom mycelium as opposed to their fruiting body.  Cordyceps Cs-4. The inferior nature of grain grown medicinal mushroom products. The nature of the medicinal mushroom industry at large, and what to look out for in regards to quality and authenticity. Following your passion in business. Retaining your integrity in the mushroom industry. Polysaccharides and betaglucans. China as a superior source Who is Jeff Chilton ?   Resources  Q: How Can I Support The SuperFeast Podcast?   A: Tell all your friends and family and share online! We’d also love it if you could subscribe and review this podcast on iTunes. Or  check us out on Stitcher :)! Plus  we're on Spotify and Soundcloud!   Check Out The Transcript Here: Time to talk tonic herbalism people. Maybe some medicinal mushrooms and philosophy for longevity, so pour yourself a tonic and get ready to get super human, baby. Let's start the show!   Mason: Hello everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. Got one that, I've been really looking forward to doing this interview. Jeff Chilton, I'll go into a little breakdown now, rather than just jumping ahead to why I'm really into his work. He's been in the mushroom industry since 1973. When it comes to mushroom cultivation, back then, he was really pioneering. Especially, a lot of the mushrooms that we have available today via cultivation in the west.   Mason: He had a lot to do with the developing the manufacturing of those. Then in 1989, switched over to the manufacturing of medicinal mushroom extract, so he's OG in this medicinal mushroom world. There was no real trending back then. And I, like him, we met two years ago at a herbal symposium in Oregon. That's when I really ... super aware of him and just how he was just via just his own integrity and just educating the market.   Mason: He became this internal watchdog of the industry. Just in the sense of just calling out real bad practices that are going on in the medicinal mushroom industry, and still today, and educating people, so you can spot a product on the market which is telling fibs, and really doesn't have the good stuff that we have all come to know and love about medicinal mushrooms.   Mason: So NAMMEX is his company, also Real Mushrooms, and I love the fact that we can sit down as colleagues, offering medicinal mushrooms, having more at it from the Taoist perspective and Jeff just rocking gin that specialization of mushrooms and especially being such an originator of the entire industry. I really love to be able to sit down, talk with him and ask him about the history, especially he's really been shining in educating people about the difference between growing medicinal mushrooms on wood and on mycelium. And we dive into nuances of that.   Mason: Basically we talk about the industry and we talk about setting up relationships in China and just how amazing it is to be able to source really incredible, the most high quality mushrooms that you're gonna be able to get in the world outside of a wild cultivated situation. Where we are talking about medicinal qualities. Getting those from China and being able to educate people about the beauty of getting them from China. We talk a little bit about that.   Mason: Also what it's taken for us to develop the relationships with growers and farmers and so I think you'll find it really interesting hearing me from 2011, Jeff from 1989 really navigating the difference in our stories. As well we go into organic because Jeff has pioneered in getting the first certified organic mushroom supplement in the US which is really amazing. We go a little bit into that, I share my two cents on where I see organic is at. More so the reason why I like Jeff is because he's not like most companies that just think the be all and end all is paying for this little sticker, jumping through a couple of hurdles and getting the sticker on your product.   Mason: But what we call going beyond organic. And Jeff does that with the organic certification and I share my two cents on where I'm at with that whole thing. But mostly just how much I love that he's non-stop out there educating people. Not just trying to flog a product, not just trying to grow this crazy big business. But I think that's kind of inevitably happening, it's just a nice slow growth of a business. Because it has a lot of trust and it has a lot of consistency in its messaging. And we talk a lot about that and have a lot of laughs and get a couple of stories about the history of the mushroom kingdom and those mushroom people back in the day. We talk about mushroom conferences and a bunch of other things. I think you'll really enjoy it, I hope as much as I did, here's Jeff Chilton from NAMMAX.   Mason: Jeff, thanks for joining me, man.   Jeff: Hey Mason, thanks a lot for having me.   Mason: Absolute pleasure, so remind me where are you again in the world?   Jeff: I am in British Columbia, Canada. I like on Vancouver Island out on the West Coast. You and I are actually connected by the Pacific Ocean.   Mason: Vancouver Island especially, for some reason that just keeps on calling in. I keep on having friends, awesome friends and now you. You're waiting there. And I'm like "What is the pull?"   Jeff: Yeah. You have gotta come. Definitely come in our summer time because otherwise you'll just be hit by all of those things you don't like, which is rain and all the rest.   Mason: Well, it brings mushrooms, yeah?   Jeff: It's true.   Mason: When is it really on for you there? What months is it on for mushroom harvesting?   Jeff: Mushroom season is really going strong in October. First couple weeks in November still happening but then things cool off too much then it slows down and there's nothing happening. We get rains in August, which really primes things then in the last couple weeks in September we could see things starting to pop up.   Mason: All right, I love it. October, that sounds good to me. Let's dive in a little bit because we met maybe we were chatting it must've been two years ago.   Jeff: At the American Herbalist Guild Conference in Oregon, which was just awesome.   Mason: That was amazing, I mean, we were in Silverton? Is that right?   Jeff: Silverton, exactly, yeah, that's where we were.   Mason: But apparently not the witch one. No, I think that's on the other side. Tony was looking at Silverton but that's where all the witches were.   Jeff: Oh, ah   Mason: That's a different Silverton. I can't remember the name of the hotel but their grounds rolling in and the ginkgo trees, big ginkgo trees as well lining it. And then all the herbalists who came and did their herb walks were just frothing at how much they were able to go and show everyone how to forage, how to identify. Because the array of herbs there was incredible. That place is designed.   Jeff: It was absolutely designed. It was a huge property and they put in all sorts of different plants, herbs and different kinds of trees. It was a beautiful venue there are a great place to have that. Even on the Saturday night when they had a band playing and everybody was dancing. I had a great time.   Mason: That's so good, yeah. I imagine that place gets a lot of herbal symposiums going through it. And man, the best thing, the fig tree was kicking. Did you get up there and face on the fig then, during that symposium? That was the best part of it. Right next to the pine.   Jeff: Oh my goodness, no. I hardly had a chance to get outside which is back to my place where I was staying on the grounds and then down to the venue. But I was locked into my booth most of the time and talking to people. And then in the evenings it was nice. It was a fun thing. And I know you said you had a chance to get to hear Christopher Hobbs while you were there. That had to have been really great because I always enjoy seeing Chris. I know he was really busy in fact, funny thing was Chris told me, he said "God, I'm sorry I didn't spend more time with you. I ran into an old girlfriend."   Mason: Oh, right, I'm happy for him.   Jeff: Me too.   Mason: You're like, 100%, I can't contend with that. So '86 Hobbs wrote the book. Were you aware when his book 'Medicinal Mushrooms' came out, because when was NAMMAX first created?   Jeff: I started the business in 1989. I'm trying to remember whether I knew Chris at that point in time or not, but he was part of the whole herbal industry, so to speak, and Herbalist Guild and all of that back then. I wasn't nearly as much in touch with herbalists until I started my company. Before that it was just pretty much just mushroom people and all the people that were in the mushroom world over here. There are a lot of them. Mushrooms really happening. Long before the herbal industry figured it out and got wind of it.Chris was one of the first because he was an herbalist but also was interested in fungi. So that was really cool.   Mason: Yeah, I think he studied and formally became a mycologist as well.   Jeff: Well, no, he was a botanist, definitely a trained botanist and a history orf botany in his family. Herbalists and things like that. And now he went on and he got a PhD in molecular genetics.   Mason: Okay, he's going down that route. I like that book because he was really able to balance the mystical aspects of the mushroom herbal kingdom especially and then dive deep down into the science. It's something that only him and Steven Hardliner. Steven is the master at going down deep, molecular how a particular compound is interacting with a particular viral passade. And then blowing into full throttle Earth poetry in the next paragraph. It's a real gift. Going back to the 80s, you were running with the mushroom clique in America. Yeah, tell us the story.   Jeff: The thing was in the 70s... Well, first of all in the late 60s magic mushrooms were really great interest. That was one of the things that I was really studying at university. I had this interested in mushrooms in the 60s and I reading all about a man named Gordon Wasson. Are you familiar with Gordon Wasson?   Mason: Just the name and loosely, but not really.   Jeff: Yeah, so Gord Wasson was a New York banker with a Russian wife. He learned about mushrooms being used deep in the mountains of Mexico by Curanderez and went down there in the 50s and spent the next five summers down there. He classified a whole bunch of different psilocybes during that period because he took a French mycologist with him. And so, five summers. But he basically opened up this whole world of Look! Still today after thousands of years there are people in the world that are still using these psychoactive mushrooms in their healing practices. Man, that was a mindblower.   Jeff: So I was reading Watson and other people that were involved in that and they had published these books that were incredible books. I mean Watson went on to publish a book called 'Soma: Divine Mushroom of Immortality.' He published that in 1968.   Jeff: Then somebody came along a man named John Allegro came and published a book called 'Sacred Mushroom and the Cross,' which talked about mushrooms in early Christianity. So, Mason, listen, think about it for a second. In 1968 two books are published. One says that a mushroom is at the root of Christianity. The other one says a mushroom is at the root of the Hindu religion.   Jeff: And then all of a sudden from there it just... You get going forward and you find that mushrooms, you see symbols of them and you start to hear stories about them used through all sorts of different groups throughout history. Pre-history actually, because as that came out people started looking and discovering this. That was really part of my study in university because I was studying anthropology. And mycology on the side.   Jeff: Going into the 70s in Olympia, Washington where I lived and worked on this big mushroom farm there was a whole core of people that were interested in mushrooms. It was an amazing group of people. Paul Stamos is one of those people. Ultimately he and I wrote the book called 'The Mushroom Cultivator' in 1983. We even had a group. We had four people, Paul and I and two other people, where we had four different mushroom conferences. These conferences were so ... You would have enjoyed it so much. We had people there that were speaking about how to identify mushrooms. I was speaking on cultivation of mushrooms, speaking on the anthropological aspect of mushrooms. We had great people there speaking. There was Andre Wyle was at our conferences. And it was just a great time had by everybody, right? You can imagine. All these mushroom people coming together. 200 people coming together for a weekend. Amazing.   Mason: So good. I mean, it's different, you got this original crew, there's always something special when you've got the original crew.   Jeff: Yeah.   Mason: There's a medicinal mushroom symposium every year that moves around the world. It was in Colombia a couple of years ago and then in Italy. Do you know that one?   Jeff: You're actually talking about the International Medicinal Mushroom --   Mason: Conference?   Jeff: Society IMMS and you know what? And that was more of a scientific group that was formed much later. I know the principles of the group. It started somewhere around 1999. They're having a conference in China on the 18th of September this year. You should come. I'm gonna be over there at this conference. I know lots of other people are gonna be there as well. It's gonna be an interesting time. I'm gonna be giving a paper there, which will be fun. There will be lots of other people too. I don't know what time of year you go to China.   Mason: Yeah, I go in September. I think this year we've got our staff retreat in September. I'm gonna check the dates, but otherwise I've been wanting to get along anyway. I've been trying to revolve it around going to Wudang mountain and doing some Taoist training as well. This is where I've been tossing up this year, what time to get over there. But that sounds a bit serendipitous.   Jeff: Yeah, well, the conference is I believe the 18th to the 22nd of September. That's normally kind of early for us. We like to go over more in November. We go every year. November's really harvest time for a lot of mushrooms like Shiitake, Maitaki, Wood ear. A little bit later is Hericium, Lion's mane. In September it's the Reishi harvest.   Mason: Yeah, Reishi harvest is normally for us in September. Where's your Lion's mane growing? Which region?   Jeff: It's growing in Fujian province.   Mason: Okay. Ours is a little bit earlier, in September as well. In Heilongjiang. In the northeast.   Jeff: Okay, yeah, because in Fujian province it is late, late November when it's quite cold. It's back to the mountains, quite cold. Maybe up in Heilongjiang it's colder in there right?   Mason: It's chilly.   Jeff: (laughs)   Mason: That's spoken like a true Australian.   Jeff: Let's fly in and start up north there and step off. I just can't wait to get to Yunan province.   Mason: (laughs)   Jeff: I can't wait to get down into that tropical vibe. Although, nothing beats that crisp air.   Jeff: Well that's good. I'm at that point where -- I don't know when your periods of this business growth have been -- but I've been real head down, bum up in the business. Not really been in that space of upgrading my information. Of course, I'm always reading and everything, doing all these things. I feel like that's like, you're at a point in your business where you are traveling around and you're educated. You're back at that point where you're free to go and educate and then go and educate yourself non-stop, constantly, which is really nice. I'm nearly back there.   Jeff: Yeah, you know what it's like. We are so swamped right now. We've got so much demand for the product right now. We're growing and over the past two years we've hired four people, two people for lab and another person for regulatory and, can you imagine, we've got one person that's strictly regulatory affairs and deals with all the paperwork that we have to deal with. The paperwork is really monumental. We get forms from companies that are 220 questions!   Mason: Companies that you're doing business with and they wanna know, looking at purity or is it you getting stocked with them that they want all those questions answered?   Jeff: No, they qualify their suppliers. And so this is all about GMPs for the most part and how your product is manufactured. They want to know that everything is according to the GMP, quality, and the standard operating procedures and all the rest.   Mason: I think that's where Real Mushrooms. Was it your son that created Real Mushrooms?   Jeff: Real Mushrooms, yeah. Sky created Real Mushrooms in 2015 as part of NAMMAX so it's just one division of the company. He runs Real Mushrooms as well as other things because he's in training to allow me to go fishing and he can stay and do all the work.   Mason: Great. NAMMAX is providing more providing bulk for people that are putting it into products and stuff?   Jeff: We're a business to business. We sell the raw materials and then Real Mushrooms is retail products and mostly sold online. Maybe getting it into the stores at some point, but right now an online business. But we're business to business where we sell to companies that then put the raw materials out under their own brand.   Mason: Does NAMMAX do... I'm increasingly aware because I think NAMMAX... we get a lot of people asking at SuperFeast but we don't really specialize in that B2B space. But one thing I want to talk a little bit about later is a lot of people who, like NAMMAX has bridged it and made it really accessible. Especially with you and the middlemen not having to deal straight with trying to... I'm still appreciating, it took me quite a few years but you'd know the in's and out's beyond what it's like developing relationships, critiquing, getting the authenticity on the testing. Also developing a relationship based on integrity and qualifying on that level takes so long. I feel like NAMMAX has really made it possible.   Mason: I know a lot of people in Australia who are like "Ah, great, I can just go and NAMMAX can just do it all for me." Which is really great, because there's a lot of people. I like it because there's a lot of people jumping onto the bandwagon, and Australia has got this nice buffer. We don't have too much shit here, which is really good. And that's something that's nice for me to be able to say about my competitors as well. Australian community doesn't need to be as wary, I think, as the U.S. world because the U.S. is a bit...I didn't realize it's a shit fight. I know talking to you a lot back in the day, I don't think I presented that I was from SuperFeast. We were just talking about mushrooms and I was just learning a bunch off you and learning about your history.   Mason: As a company when I started out it was an absolute no-brainer that we weren't gonna use fillers, that I wasn't going to be using mycelium product myself. We'll talk about that, it has its place. Of course, growing on good-quality wood. In Australia we're just small companies. I started in Mum's spare room getting products for me and Mum. Then talking to you I was like... and then reading your blogs and really falling off the back of it just like that. Wow, because you actually really inspired me after that talk going, "Well of course, I do talk about the fact that we don't use fillers and we don't grow on grains." And all these kinds of things, but it was getting to that point I didn't realize people really needed to know the in's and out's of your product and be able to ...   Mason: After seeing what happened in America with how much trickery there is and the percentages of polysaccharides there is, lets' go into it a little bit now. You've been watching it and been the internal watchdog of the industry, which I really like. When did that first start cropping up? When did people start jumping on the mushroom bandwagon and fibbing about the levels of polysaccharides and active ingredients?   Jeff: The interesting thing was that having been in the supplement industry since 1989, the key thing for me was that I was a mushroom grower by trade. So i spent ten years as a commercial mushroom grower on a very big, big farm. Not a hobbyist growing in my basement or a closet or something like this. A commercial mushroom grower, large farm. Millions of pounds of mushrooms every year. So I knew how it all worked, I knew the economics of it all. I realized back in the late 90s, for example. Or even the early 90s that you couldn't actually produce mushrooms in North America and turn them into a supplement, because it's a dry powder it's not a fresh product. Once you dry that thing out it's 90% water you gonna get ten times as much money for that pound of mushrooms. It doesn't work in the supplement world.   Jeff: That's where going to China and I went to farms, I went to factories, I went to research institutes, I went to conferences. The 90s was just amazing to see what was going on. I went north to south, east to west. Yunan province all the way up to Jilin province. It was all over China seeing this industry and seeing the research. One of the things, you talked a bit earlier about quality how do you know. Here I am visiting these companies going to all of these conferences. I'm having people coming up to me all the time saying, "Will you buy my product? Here it is." And they just show me a brown powder and I'm just like, it's a brown powder, I don't know what it is! How can I really know what that is. And then getting to know companies and people that were genuine and you could go to their factories and see what they were doing. Especially if they were only producing mushroom products and then building the relationships to that.   Jeff: Then I turned around and back in the United States here are these companies that come along and they start to produce mycelium on sterile grain. The worst part about it is they sell it as a mushroom.   Mason: Some people might not know what, so, we're talking about the fact, which you alluded to, which I completely agree with, that the only way to make a viable super high-quality product that's a powder is doing it in China. Based on the fact that, say you have 10 or 20 kilos worth of raw product that's gonna then give you a kilo of the powdered product in the end, it's not viable in the U.S. so to make it viable in the U.S., the way it generally works is that it's grown on a grain substrate, like rice, brown rice, oats, this kind of thing.   Jeff: Yeah, and the thing is, what people need to understand is that a mushroom is just one part of this fungal organism. So the other parts would be a spore, the spore germinates in to a fine filament, those filaments come together, they create mycelium, which is the actual body of the fungus. Which normally if you're out there hunting mushrooms you never see that because it's in the ground or it's in the wood. So most people are unaware of that. But that mycelial network amasses nutrients. When the conditions are right it produces the mushroom. That's what we see because up it comes and it's like "Wow, look at that thing there!" And then that matures, it produces spores, and then we have a complete life cycle.   Jeff: The interesting part, Mason, is that growing mycelium, which is the vegetative part of this organism, on sterile grain as a mushroom grower, what that is and what that was developed as mushroom spawn. Which is like the seed that is used to grow mushrooms. Because mushrooms don't have seeds they have spores. You don't plant spores when you grow mushrooms, you plant live mycelium. The mushroom growing world, what they developed is "Okay, we'll take that live mycelium and we'll put it onto some kind of a carrier. Then that carrier we can spread into our compost or whatever it was that they're growing their mushrooms in. If you take a gallon of grain, you've got maybe thousands of grains in there you coat that with mycelium, and then you take those thousands of grains and you can mix them into a big pile of straw or compost or something. Each one of those mycelium grows off of and it grows into this thing. So that myceliated grain actually was developed in the 1930s as mushroom spawn or essentially seed to grow mushroom.   Jeff: It's an easy process, it's done in a lab and people in the United States, we can't grow mushrooms. Why don't we just take that process, we'll grow out the mycelium. Mycelium in and of itself it's got beneficial properties because it is a fungal hyphae that has beta glucans in its cell walls. If you grow it in a certain way like in liquid or something it can produce certain medicinal compounds. But when you grow it on grain and then you don't separate it out from the grain at the end of the process you end up with mostly grain powder. That's what companies started to do. They started to grow the mycelium on grain. At the end of the process they would dry it -- just like you're drying a mushroom, but -- they'd dry it, they would grind it to a powder. No mushroom there at all. No mushroom, it's just myceliated grain, and it's mostly the grain powder. Finally, the worst part about it is then they call it mushroom when they sell it.   Mason: I definitely know I've been surprised, because my first trip to the States I went and bought all the different brands. I was floored by some of the grainy non-mushroom powder that I was buying. That was like white powder, it's in your face.   Jeff: Yeah, white powder and you taste it and you're like, "How's it supposed to taste like mushroom? It tastes kind of like flour."   Mason: Yeah, it's like flour, sawdust. So are there companies doing a mycelial growth that are more on the ethical spectrum, that they're not doing a full grain wash and that they're growing on a particular grain that they're able to separate out a lot of the mycelium? I know that a lot of the mycelium is embodied grain. That's just a reality that you're not gonna be able to get rid of. But I'm trying to play that... is that possible in your experience?   Jeff: In China they grow mycelium in large tanks of liquid.   Mason: Like Cs-4 Cordycep, yeah.   Jeff: Yeah, Cs-4 Cordyceps. They've been doing that for 50 years. But the thing is that it takes a lot of money to put in a big facility that can grow and these tanks are huge and you have to have a steam generator. It's a big investment but to actually grow out the mycelium on sterilized grain does not take a lot of money, it doesn't take a lot of expertise. It's a very simple process. Anybody can do it. In my book that I published in 1983, it tells you how to manufacture mycelium on grain at home in your kitchen. It's not difficult so it's very easy and ultimately, the stuff is so cheap to produce. And these people are selling it as mushroom and making a fortune doing it. It's really immoral in my opinion, and unethical. And especially if you're calling it mushroom.   Mason: I think because we sometimes maybe look at the market and what we subconsciously are looking for when we want a mushroom and most of the studies have been on if you're like... Most of the time we're looking for a fruiting body. That's the mushroom. It's the unspoken that we know that we're talking about is the fruiting body there? And I guess there are some companies that have been quite averse or trying to sign typically validate the mycelium. When I was first kicking around all this there were people going "Look, just have it all. Have the fruiting body, have the mycelium, have all these..." and I very quickly, before I had a company was like "Mmm, no." I'm not in this to justify a particular aspect of the market or go for ease. I'm in it personally, and especially in the beginning, being a dreadful romantic, trying to connect to a herbal system, particularly Taoist tonic herbalism for me.   Jeff: Exactly. The people who grow those products and they say "Oh, we want to have all parts of this. We want to have the spore, we want to have the mushroom, we want to have the mycelium." It's like they say "It's full spectrum." Well, the problem is that they leave out the fact that (A) there is no mushroom in it, and (B) the grain! How can it be a full spectrum product if they've got all of this grain in the product? That's what they don't like to talk about. They don't like to talk about the fact that it's mostly grain and all of this other stuff about "Oh, you know, the fruit body's in there and the spore's in there." Absolutely not. It's really a lot of smoke and mirrors.   Jeff: That's what's so hard to take is that when there are people out there actually espousing that and claiming that they've got a full spectrum product when in fact it doesn't take much in the way of analysis to prove what they do and they don't have. We've run analysis and what's really interesting is if you analyze it, for example, with a proximate analysis, which is proteins, carbohydrates, fats, ash, minerals. Those products line up perfectly with the grain they're grown on.   Mason: Are there exceptions to that?   Jeff: No. All of these products and there, it's the myceliated grain products. If it's grown on brown rice it lines up with brown rice. If it's grown on oats it lines up with oats. Literally the two lines run together. The way I like to think about it too is I talk to people and I tell them what they're growing is tempeh. And they say what tempeh is, it is cooked soybeans with fungal mycelium grown on it. If you look at that tempeh and it's all white that's the mycelium but if you look at tempeh and you cut it open you can see it's mostly the soybeans. And if you were to dry it out, look, Mason, mycelium is 90% water. Just like a mushroom. The soybeans are 50% water. When you dry that tempeh out the mycelium just goes "Fffft!" Just tell me, where's the mycelium? And you've got all of these dried soybeans and you're like, well, it's mostly dried soybeans, that product.   Mason: I'm sure you get it a lot as well. Yours, there's obviously a few brands in the U.S. becoming more aware of the others. I didn't go looking for them but as you move into a market. SuperFeast, I spoke to you about it the other day. We've got so many people ... like [inaudible 00:29:50] story. I've realized in business a lot of the time it's like, same with you, I like the people. I like the unique stories. People are like "Bring SuperFeast over, there's no one doing that like what you're doing over there!" I like, yeah.   Jeff: (laughs)   Mason: And it's the same. When you're upfront about the nuances although there's a lot of companies doing medicinal mushrooms like yourself and Taoist herbs like us, medicinal mushrooms. There's nuances there and the sourcing and there's nuances in the story. What I like is, which is going to get to the polysaccharide claim, and the full spectrum claim for the people growing the mycelium. Because people are in an egoic, competitive make money mentality a lot of the time. They think they have to be everything to everyone. Versus just being very upfront. I'm always quite upfront, I don't really look at that. I don't try and standardize color or anything in any way. I don't try and standardize the constituents. I don't even sell on the percentages of constituents. I don't focus on it. I'll move more in that direction because more and more people want to be satiated. I can say yes, we test for percentages of the active ingredients to ensure that they're in alignment with the Chinese cornucopia and ensure that they're actually active. And all that kind of stuff.   Mason: But going over into the States now and hearing about all these other brands and I'm with you whenever it's growing on grain I can't get behind it. Not to be disrespectful, and I'm always trying to be really amicable in my talks. There's a place for it, but less and less can I find that place.   Jeff: And I understand what you're saying too because if a person is genuine. For example the herbalists, who are at an American Herbal AHG conference. These are people that want to provide good products, they want to provide a body of knowledge to help people. That's who you wanna be, that's who I wanna be. I'm not in this to make a lot of money. I'm not in this to build some big company and go Oh, gee, isn't this great? Because I'm selling $20 million a year of this or that. That does not excite me at all. That has no meaning for me. What has meaning for me is that I'm producing a quality product that I've been working on for years and I can tell you the product is what I say it is and I want it to help you. I want you to be able to take this product and feel confidence that you're getting what the Chinese have used in traditional Chinese medicine for thousands of years. That's what I want.   Jeff: I don't want to sell you something that is not what it really is and is a placebo and expect you to buy the product from me and I walk away going "I'm managing this great at my company. I'm making so much money and it's wonderful." No, I'm sorry, that's not me. I'm not interested. Those people turn me off. It's like the difference between being in a group of people that really understand mushrooms or herbs and being in a group of people that are just talking business and numbers and all that kind of stuff. And I don't give a shit about that.   Mason: Yeah. I think it's interesting. Watching your business I can see in the beginning it probably would've started out that everyone knew Jeff and knew your level of integrity and how you just wanted a good product. In that little circle it was like 'Great, we'll just go and get Jeff's product.' Then as you grow I think what you've done really well ... just to put it as an example of why I'm bringing this up, we're getting to this point where we're growing as a company where it's beyond Mason at the markets and everyone knows that Mason has the badass tonic herbs. Or people are coming along to the talks and all the health clique. We've started emerging.   Mason: I think you would've gone through this years ago when you emerged beyond the health clique. And it's very dramatically people aren't associating directly with you or the founder, it's the company. They don't even know or care who the founder is and therefore you need to have these things in place. We're getting to the point where everyone who's a SuperFeast customer is just like, "Yeah, we don't even care about organic, we know what you guys are doing," and we're going on that old philosophy and we're documenting that and there's all those other checks in place like independent testing for pesticides and metals and all that in place and available.   Mason: But it's getting to that point now where the people on the very outside... I still don't know if we're really gonna shift because I still personally don't care and I don't change my company for perception's sake. But you can see Wow, that organic would be really, really useful for those people on the outside. Or the testing to know what percentage of what's going on inside and being able to present that. I think we'll move in that direction. I think you've done that really well and really maintained the trust in the brand of course, and in yourself. But maintaining you there as the one that's rolling this along and not then just relying, you know, the organic certification or the percentages.   Mason: I think that's what I find really commendable, because most people then they rest on their laurels. Once they change over into, not standardizing but testing for minimum constituents like beta-glucans or organic. they then rest on that. Whereas that means nothing to me at all. Being able to talk to you I'm like, Yeah, because organic, I don't know what your take on that. I know there's some terrible organic products out there. Just the fact that we know we can go organic there's five different companies we can go to, so you just go and find the company that suits you. We can go with the company that's the hardest to jump through.   Mason: I won't go into the details of what's going on, why we're probably not going to go in that direction. For us there's so many little micro-farms that we're being nimble with whom we're working with. When we're beyond mushrooms we've got a lot of other herbs going on. We need to cut that farm out if they need to move on and do something else and we'll go and we've got that team to go around and constantly go and find these people. So every time we want to nimbly adapt and go down a different direction when someone's doing a little more traditionally than the other person, all right, get the organic certify up. Or lie, which is what I think a lot of people are doing. They get the organic certification, then when they change up those little farmers, because we're dealing with independent farmers as well, not a company that can provide the organic certification. I don't know why I went on that rant. So that's why we're not going on down that route.   Mason: It's something I see. I know there's a bunch of companies who are coming to NAMMAX, which I think is just been so good for the Australian industry. For people to know that they're very quickly going to be introducing a really good quality. You can tick off the organic but I hate it when it's just organic that they are going for and not just an incredible product with a story behind it as well. So I really commend you for offering that out.   Jeff: I've always really believed in chemical-free food. Organic is more than just chemical-free it's how it's grown. When you're growing out of soil it's building the soil and not just depleting it. For me organics is a holistic way of looking at things. I've always considered that to be very important and I support that type of agriculture no matter what it is. A lot of these companies that are producing myceliated grain, they're organically certified!   Jeff: It doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to be a great product. These companies have what I call all sorts of merit badges. 'We're big and we're organic, we're kosher, we're this, we're that,' which ultimately means nothing at all. There's a lot more to it than just that. The one thing I really like about what you're doing too is that you're introducing the philosophy of it and that's something that you really believe in. That to me is important and that's what people look at. They look at who's behind the company and what that person has to say, is that person ethical, righteous, person or not. You're not up there as a smooth talking business salesman or anything like that, right?   Mason: You should see me try and sell something I don't like. I'm a bumbling mess. I think I told you that back in the markets people used to say god-made...you could sell ice to the Eskimos. But I'm terrible if I'm not talking about herbs or philosophy behind it.   Jeff: That's because you're doing something you believe in. That's where everybody should be. Not everybody has that opportunity, but if you can have that opportunity. I was lucky enough that I followed my passion and I didn't do that because I wanted to be rich. I did it because I loved it. I always say to people, if you really like to do something, whatever it is, just do it. Follow your passion. Maybe you're going to be poor for a long time. Make something that you feel good about.   Mason: Honestly, and I really mean it not just because you're on the podcast talking it up or trying to flatter you. But when I met you, you had a happy disposition to be in business that long. In the beginning I was trying to escape the business side of things. Quite scared about having a business and not coming out the other end alive. You have a sunny disposition and you still have control of your company and the standards and you're still educating about the same thing that you're educating, of course it's evolved, but you were educating about beforehand. And there's something that I've learned a bit about in that. There's something humbling and nice about not being in that pursuit for aggressive growth while still growing at a nice, sustainable rate. But staying true to what you were doing in the first place. I educate about basics of herbalism and medicinal mushrooms in the beginning and then I'll move on and doing other things. The more I go along the more I want to settle back into doing what I did all along.   Mason: I've got a weird thing about going back to the organic, I'll almost shy away from something if it's organic because I see it as a marketing ploy a lot of the time. And I think it is a lot of the time. With little things. When growing Lion's mane there's a lot of people who will use organic fungicide because they don't pick when they're watering out to the Lion's mane. I like to use this example because we don't have a plastic covering, it's just a straw and a hut to keep it nice and dark and it gets watered. That's the only part that gets watered. And one of the things I talked about in the beginning with Lion's mane, I just heard about it through the grapevine, that fungicide is needed if you're watering straw a lot of the time in order to, all right, we know why fungus grows. But found someone who wasn't doing that and found people who were doing organic Lion's mane who were using organic fungicide on the huts. Little things like that they get me so dejected about the marketing ploy behind it. But I think you're the one organic product that I would be over the moon to use.   Mason: And the other example is Ron Teeguarden. I think we talked about him. He was such a rogue in the industry herbally. You were telling me about the acupuncture when he was offering acupuncture because he's a barefoot herbalist and all the acupuncture's guilds are like "Screw you, you need to be regulated." And he's like "Hey."   Jeff: I know, it might've been somebody when you were in LA but it wasn't me. I don't know Ron that well. He's been around a long time. He's done his own thing, he's not out at the shows or anything like that. He's very well-known and in a sense he's been the herbalist to the stars. He's in Los Angeles, right? A lot of people in Los Angeles that are into herbal medicine and living properly in term of what they eat and things like that. They would go to Ron and Ron has one of the very first herb bars where you can walk in and have this type of a drink or that type of a drink. He was really in it very early and doing stuff that nobody else was. He was an outlier in that sense. I don't think he really needed to go into the industry proper. He's done a little more now that before. He didn't have to.   Mason: He, on the level of sourcing philosophy. I bumped into him years ago. I was at that place where I was starting to grow, people are asking why I'm getting my herbs from China and people asking me if I'm organic and all these kinds of things. I want to keep on doubling down on my philosophy, what I'm doing here. One thing that I drew from yourself as well and then be proactive and educating the market. Not in pushing your own product, just generally being happy about the market being educated as well. And Ron was like...In fact I talked with him for about five minutes. More or less he was like "Listen, if you have that spark," I remember, "do not deviate from that sourcing philosophy." And it really stuck with me and from that day I did. I doubled down and I was not going to try and... I'm going to continue to not worry about what's going on and just do me. It's a lot of fun. I was at Dragon Herbs Tonic Bar about three weeks ago. I frequent the Hollywood one when I'm in L.A.   Mason: Before we go too far off the mycelium grown, one of the things you've really educated, not only the market, but businesses in the market around medicinal mushrooms in the market, is how to identify a true polysaccharide read on medicinal mushrooms. Rather than people including 60% polysaccharides or even 30%, yet when you go down into the class of beta-glucan it's actually been tested you've been hoodwinked and they've gone dry from age or whatever. Can you talk a little bit about that?   Jeff: This is something in the herbal industry too that you learn right away, and I learned it back in the 90s, was that so many herbal extracts, when you make the extract they oftentimes need some kind of a stabilizer. Otherwise they can get gummy, they can jut come together if it's a powder. Putting a carrier with a lot of extracts was pretty common. What happened was sometimes companies would cheat a little bit. The next thing you know instead of 10% carrier it was 50% carrier or 80% carrier. And they're not revealing that to anybody. You think you're getting an herbal extract, not just mushroom extract, an herbal extract and it ends up being mostly maltodextrin or dextrose or something like that, and they're not telling you, then it is really deceptive. So there's a lot of companies that were doing that in the industry.   Jeff: As I went along, the whole time that I'm working with people in China I'm like, "Look, I want extracts where we aren't using any carriers. It has to be made in a certain way," because I'm looking for the pure essence. In traditional Chinese medicine they take the herbs and they throw it in a pot and they boil it up and pour it out and "Here, drink this!" There's no carriers in there.   Mason: That's right, not sliding agents.   Jeff: That's right. If you have to put something in a capsule you've got 150 milligrams of different types of fillers and binders and flow agents. Putting it into a pouch is so nice because then you don't have to put those things in with it. It's just the pure herb. Early on in the 90s everybody's testing for polysaccharides and nobody's testing for beta-glucans. And beta-glucan is a polysaccharide. Unfortunately all these carriers are polysaccharides too. A lot of people can hide that from you that you've got carriers on their product. No, no, we don't use carriers, it's 100% mushrooms, stuff like that. That's where with any kind of supplier you have to build up a level of trust. Like I say, they show you a brown powder and say. "Here's our product, it's shiitake mushroom extract. Isn't it great?" You can test it.   Jeff: This is the thing, Mason, it's not like you can take a mushroom product other than a reishi extract, consume it, and then a few hours later or a day later go, "Wow, yeah! Did I ever get a kick out of that!" No, it doesn't work that way. You can organoleptically, I can taste the shiitake extract and I can tell you yeah, that's definitely essence of shiitake. Or with reishi it's so bitter I can taste all those bitter notes in that reishi extract, that is an awesome extract.   Jeff: I used to give a reishi extract to a friend of mine who was a deep herbalist making his own liquid extracts and a big business ultimately. He'd taste some of my extracts in the beginning and he'd go, "Not bad, but it tastes a little bit burnt." And I'm like, "Oh shit." When it was dried it was maybe in the oven a little longer, and he could pick up on it. I thought that tastes pretty good. That was in the early days when I didn't know any better. I thought it's great and high triterpenes and all this. He'd go "Yeah, it tastes a little bit burnt." Those kind of things teach you a little bit about, okay, how's it made. Let me tell you, in the 90s the facilities that were making herbal extracts were nasty. They were old facilities   Mason: Not too much GMP regulation back in those days.   Jeff: It wasn't like stainless steel everywhere, no. Everywhere was dark from all the herbs they'd been cooking for who knows how many years. Now all that's been torn down and you see nothing but brand new factories in China. Everything is stainless steel and it's beautiful and there's none of that anymore. But back then, actually, it wasn't until we got the megazyme test and I started using that. And that was in 2012 or 2013. Up until that point I thought, well, the polysaccharide number was high, that's great. Then we starting testing the products and that's where we really pulled back the curtain. My main supplier, awesome! The test results we got from that. Beta-glucan and alpha-glucan and the alpha-glucan, that was where any of the carriers were revealed.   Jeff: And then another company that was supplying me with some products, only a few, not many, fortunately. And was swearing up and down they never used any carrier. Jesus, their alpha-glucan level was way up there. I was shocked and really upset because I thought their product was good because occasionally I'd test it for polysaccharides it was 50-60% and I was thinking, great product. I could taste it, it tasted okay. Nothing but mushrooms they were producing. But here they were. They were putting them on a carrier and telling me they weren't. That's the kind of thing that you face when you're over there.   Jeff: How do you qualify these products? You can go to the factory. They can show you around, you can look at all the mushrooms in their warehouse, you can look at them cooking these things up, the final products. They don't show you the bags and bags of maltodextrin that are hidden back in the warehouse somewhere that they're using as a carrier for the liquid extract. That literally pulled back the curtain and I went and confronted that with them. They claim no. Finally they actually admitted it and I'm like, okay, see you later. I'm not buying another product from you because you lied to me. Fortunately it was a secondary supplier. They weren't my main supplier at all, but I needed a secondary supplier. I visited them and it was all mushrooms that they were doing and they were in the heart of mushroom country and it was nothing but mushroom. Yet they had all these carriers in there. I was really upset not only with them but with myself because I got taken in by it too. And that's what you have to do.   Jeff: Look, Mason, have you ever been at Ali Baba and looked at all the mushroom products being sold?   Mason: It's always funny, and as you know, everyone's jumping onto the bandwagon right now. You can see people trawling through Ali Baba going "Oh, just tell me which one is awesome." I haven't been in there in a long time. I got curious, to be honest. I think we were in the office having afternoon drinks and seeing what was on Ali Baba. It is insane.   Jeff: It's totally insane. So many companies selling mushroom extracts. Sometimes they're selling at prices where you're like, "No, wait a minute, you can't sell me that extract for $20 for a 10:1 extract. That's impossible. You load it up with starch, that's quite possible, right? That's where analysis, for me, has been very helpful. Especially the beta-glucan analysis because that gives me that alpha-glucan which is the whole carrier. That's what unmasked all of those myceliated grain products. There's definitely a place for analysis. There's also a place for getting to know the grower. I don't believe in organic pesticides. I don't give a shit. Don't use whatever it is, you have to grow this. I know it's more difficult but you have to grow this without sprays and all that.   Jeff: The thing about China is that when you're traveling through China and I've been back in the mountains in all these different places and you go back and you look down and this little valley and here's this beautiful rice fields down there and you're going "Oh, isn't it great, back here. Everything's idyllic." And then you see somebody walking through the rice field and they've got a backpack sprayer. And they're going along spraying chemicals on this rice crop. I'm like, "Ugh, shit. Really? Do you have to do that?" And I think to myself, even the smallest growers out there are using some chemicals. That's where I'm like... And I want to be sure. And that's where we test and test to make sure that everything is staying on track because these things can slip in. Somebody can cheat. You have to ride herd on the whole thing. Otherwise it can slip right through your fingers.   Jeff: That's been good for me in the sense of having an organic product that has meant that we put these constraints on the people that we work with. We say look if your product shows one of these things in there I'm sorry we're not selling it. If you and if you shipped it over to us and we find it in there after you've done the testing that's all good and we find it in there it goes the landfill I'm sorry, we can't sell it. That has been a really good quality, that's how we keep that quality up. In that sense I kind of believe in it all and think it's important. It helps us keep the product a little bit more real.   Mason: As you say said there's all these things that can go by... even though it is organic, you can get organic pesticides and all this kind of stuff. I have taken your product and of course I really love it. You know that you're going to go that extra mile with it. It's a trip around it, there's a stigma around China is isn't that whole thing polluted?   Jeff: Well, that's the other side of it right now, Mason. People are so afraid of anything coming out of China that this gives them a little bit more confidence in it. They can say what they want about organic and all but we've got pesticide tests that can demonstrate what it is and of course the always have to do heavy metals and micros and all of that.   Mason: Alpha-toxins   Jeff: For us, especially as a raw material supplier to companies large and small we have to be able to give them confidence because you know they're selling a Chinese product that they buy from us and lot of people are just like you know when it comes to China it's like no no no no it's like not going to do it so I have to talk to a lot of people. And I say, well, hey look. There's products in the United States that are absolutely full of chemicals. So it doesn't matter where it's grown. It matters where it's grown but it's not this country or that country. You can grow good, clean products anywhere in the world if you're doing it properly.   Mason: It's so good. Of course people are realizing that the ultimate Chinese herbs and medicinal mushrooms are going to be coming out of China. I really like how it's still dominating and making it really easy for people to get One thing that's organic and Two very quickly have all those things to provide so enough people are going to be able to go, Oh, okay, so it's from China and we can trust it. That's something that makes it really easy, because people are going to jump on the mushroom bandwagon. We found it as well, a similar thing. People want to come, they're like okay, tell us about Chins. Okay, tested three times for pesticides before it comes to market, each batch. Plus here in Australia the TGA facility and heavy metals and alpha-toxins and microbes. At some point people go "Hmm, shit, okay." And testing of the water. And when we can going and doing radiation testing in the areas. And then going live and seeing pictures of you at your reishi farm is magic.   Mason: When I was going live around China going, you know we're still going up while we're outside the mountains going to the fields where the eucommia bark trees were grown or up in Yunnan. Just drove five hours in the middle of nowhere to get to the poria farm, where there's wild pine and people are going "Holy shit! Look at that land! The land of the dragon. It's calling me. It's real." All of a sudden popping that thing that first of all, yes, you just need to be vigilant, that's absolutely number one. I've only changed suppliers once. In the beginning I found someone I had really enjoyed their product. And then what I've decided was one of my areas in going forth is I need someone that could absolutely school me. If I'm requesting things and they weren't able to "bang" school me on that immediately, then I'm not going to be able to do business.   Mason: And it got to this point where I was confirming no municipal water. Only springs, only well water. Only creek water in the area. Nothing from the tap every touching the crops. At one point "Okay, sometimes that's a bit hard." I was like "All right, I'm gonna change now." That's when I started going down that route and ended up... developing relationships, developing a friendship first, understanding the intent behind the philosophy behind the business, understanding who owns the business that you're going to be dealing with and what their motives are and what their history is. These are the things where people don't realize what goes into it. People go "Can you tell me your supplier?" And you're like   Jeff: (laughs)   Mason: At this point it's not about me being scared about you having access to that supplier but so much has gone into this relationship. It's not just about finding someone and sourcing off them. Although, it's nice and easy to do that. If I was beginning right now I'd love to be buying just from suppliers on NAMMAX because it's cool. All the certificates, all the independents, and then all the years of vetting and tweaking that leads to this point where trust is inevitable and you become even more switched on to what to look for if anything ever comes up. If anything slips or changes you know the questions to ask and where the slip in quality could possibly be. And large ways you know how to put things in place that would stop that from ever happening to begin with. It's an interesting industry.   Jeff: We go there every year and we'll do an audit. We'll visit farms, the factory we'll be sure we confer with our partners to make sure everything is good. This year we're at the point where we're hiring someone to be on the ground in China that will do a lot of checking and stuff for us on a regular basis. More regular than us going over there once a year. It's gotten to a point where we really need that coverage of somebody right there that we can say "Can you go out to this farm or this factory?" Also, communications because sometimes communications... although some of our partners speak English but some of them not so well and then they have to use a go-between and that's not always the best. So we're gonna have somebody now that's right there in China and can do that for us. Can you imagine going to China and traveling around without having somebody with you to help you through the liaise and talk?   Mason: I have the best intentions of getting my Mandarin up to scratch and as soon as I'm out of it, it all slips out of my head. I haven't fully entered into that poetic language realm. The language is sticking. Can you speak Chinese?   Jeff: No, I speak Spanish, but Sky's learning Chinese. He has three classes a week, an hour each class with a Chinese speaker he does it over Zoom or something like that. He's very diligent about it. We get over there. He's speaking with them in Chinese and they love it. He's learning more, but unless you actually go and live somewhere for a while it's always tough. I've been thinking about it. You go over and spend two weeks, three weeks, whatever, then you leave. That's nothing in terms of really getting in and learning a language. That's swimming on the surface.   Mason: I gotta get onto it because I'm gonna do some Taoist training there.   Jeff: Yeah, that'd be really cool. You're young enough that you still can do that. I'm way beyond doing anything like that.   Mason: Come on, they'd love you up in the temple.   Jeff: Not only that, where I love to be is in Patagonia   Mason: Dude, that's the other place my heart lies, down in Patagonia. I want to become an old Argentinian man. I want to become a cowboy.   Jeff: Exactly, I know where we can get some horses, Mason, so let me know.   Mason: All right, that's it. That's on. China this year, maybe Patagonia next year.   Jeff: Yeah, two years ago Andrea and I went out and spent the day with, we had a gaucho that took us out. We went all over this one area. It was a hot day too. We were on horseback the whole time, cruising through, very slow. Slow living at its best, right?   Mason: Yeah, that's it. Drinking, eating a lot of meat, drinking a lot of yerba mate.   Jeff: Yeah, when you're on a horse you're not going to go very fast. You're going to cruise along. It's life in the slow lane.   Mason: I love it. So before we finish up is there anything that is coming up now that's exciting you about educating people about this market and about this industry with medicinal mushrooms?   Jeff: People really still need a lot of education with mushroom. Part of what I do too which I really like is I talk about the nutritional value of mushrooms. My thing too is eat mushrooms. I think mushrooms may be the missing link in terms of food. A lot of people are like, fungus, never eat it, right? And I'm like, "Dude, you've gotta get on and eat mushrooms, it's a fabulous food. They've got great benefits, you get medicinal benefits as well as nutritional benefits." That's the key for me, I'm pushing that really hard when I talk to people, saying "No, it's a fabulous food." And in China they have this whole thing of food is medicine.   Jeff: That's in Ancient Greece too. Food as your medicine. Everything that you take into your body should be something that is beneficial. And medicine as a very loose way in terms of it's feeding you and keeping you healthy. And that's what we should all be thinking about. What we consume is keeping us healthy and we should look at our food as that. That's providing me with all of these benefits. I say if you want a supplement, you feel you need more, that's great. You can supplement. But definitely use mushrooms for food. That's a big category for me.   Jeff: As a mushroom grower, can you imagine? I'm working on an agaricus farm. For ten years every day I'm going in I'm going through the rooms and each room ultimately is producing 20,000 pounds of mushrooms. There's mushrooms everywhere around me growing and I'm stoked. I love this. I've got mushrooms that I'm eating all the time. I've even got small beds of mushrooms that I bring stuff home and I'm growing them in my house because it's so interesting to me. The farm I was on it wasn't just an agaricus, we had a scientist that was growing shiitake and maikitake and oyster mushrooms. Back in the 70s when those weren't even on the markets anywhere. And I had access to these mushrooms. Besides the wild mushrooms that we were navigating. I'm like, make them part of your diet because it's a wonderful food.   Jeff: That's my message to people is this is a forgotten food, bring it home.   Mason: I love it so much. Thanks for reaching out, I really appreciate you reaching out and having you on here. It's not only do I admire you as a person, admire what you've done and your business. I spoke to you a little bit about it. I like talking to the other people who are perceived competitors. There's so much room in this market and everyone's doing their own thing and has their own story. This whole red ocean we have to fight over a scrap of people who are going to be buying mushrooms and not focusing on educating together is absolutely ridiculous. It's always awesome to meet people who trail-blazed that attitude in the industry. Calling out people that are bullshitting and then coming together and educating together and getting the world healthy together in our little way. There's something really nice about that that makes it possible to be in business for so much time, for so long, see so much shit yet still have such a positive attitude about it.   Jeff: That's absolutely right. I really love what you're doing too and I love the whole Taoist part of what you're taking to people and bringing to people. That philosophy is really awesome. That's what brings something really unique. When I hear you talking about mushrooms up around, what's the lake up there in the mountains?   Mason: Mumbai   Jeff: Yeah, that was so cool and you're hanging out there, talking about the mushrooms really excited about it all. That is really special. I love your energy, Mason, I'm really happy that we've been able to get together and have these meet-ups, speak and let's carry it on, let's keep doing it and stay in touch for sure.   Mason: Absolutely. We'll get some videos in another podcast together, 100%. I'll go check out these dates, see if I can swing a   Jeff: I'll send you the info on it so that you can check it out. If you can come you'll have a ball because there's gonna be lots of mushroom peop

Jeff & Will talk about their upcoming trip to New York City for the Romance Writers of America national conference and reveal the news that they will be among the presenters at the RITA Awards ceremony on Friday, July 26. Will reviews The Masterpiece by Bonnie Dee while Jeff reviews a book Bonnie co-wrote with Summer Devon called The Nobleman and the Spy. Jeff interviews Michael Vance Gurley about his new YA steampunk novel Absolute Heart (Infernal Instruments of the Dragon #1). Michael discusses the inspiration behind the story, what he did to build the world it takes place in and what he hopes for the trilogy. He also talks about what's coming up next for him. Complete shownotes for episode 198 along with a transcript of the interview are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Interview Transcript - Michael Vance Gurley This transcript was made possible by our community on Patreon. You can get information on how to join them at patreon.com/biggayfictionpodcast. Jeff: Welcome Michael to the podcast, or back to the podcast I should say. Michael: I'm super excited. Thanks for having me Jeff. Jeff: Yeah. We were talking before I hit the record button that we last had you on in Episode 42 and now we are at 198, it's kind of crazy. So like you did the first time we had you on, you've come up with a book that I didn't even know I needed to read when I first got to read it. So you've got this YA book called 'Absolute Heart'. It's the first book in the 'Infernal Instruments of the Dragon' series. Tell everybody what this is about, both the book and the series behind it. Michael: 'Absolute Heart' is above all else a steampunk book. It's an adventure set in a world where clockwork powered England - in 1880s Victorian era England - is at war, a sort of Cold War, when we first pick up the series, against the Magically Powered Ireland who's been kind of besieged by the Brotherhood of the mage. It's a clock. It's a warlock group that is sort of made the queen subservient to them in ways you have to find out when you read it. And it's really the story about two boys. Gavin the high councilman's son from England and his friends, following him when he has these terrible secrets - he thinks they're terrible - and when they're found out he could be executed for them, for at least one of them. So he does what all teenagers do when they have something awful happen and they think they're gonna get trouble, he runs away and his friend, his best friend Landa who's an art officer, which is a mechanic, a computer engineer and she's a powerful female character that I'm really proud of. And she has his back and challenges him and calls him foolish when he's foolish and she goes with him and some other people who have their own agendas on this quest. Then the other side, the Brotherhood, sends Orion of Oberon who is a young warlock of immense power because he's the nephew of the ailing Irish Queen. They send him off to get the most powerful weapon in the world - the dragon stones and there's a lot of mystery and history about the dragon stones and what they are and what they can actually do, but they want them to end this war in their favor. So of course they have a meet cute, or at least I hope people think it's a meet cute. They have to decide like, are they going to get together? Will they/won't they? Of course, there's the will they/won't they thing. I'm really excited about the steampunk adventure and it sets off and is set to be a trilogy so I'm really excited about that, and hopefully people will like it - the inclusion of fairies and the air steamships and all the wonder that is steampunk. Jeff: Steampunk it's so not really anything I read... I dabble in it periodically, but something about Gavin and Orion and the bad ass friend you gave Gavin. Full disclosure to the listeners, I read a very early draft of this. You have a lot going on in book one, what you've parroted back now, into a more condensed story, but how did all this coalesce and come together and what was the inspiration? Michael: You really should pat yourself on the back because your viewers should know that you read an early ARC and gave me notes, and edited, and really kind of dissected it for me - like, wherever it was messy you, like a good editor said, "That's messy." The research starts with reading steam punk books and reading a lots of YA, which is of course a terrible addiction of mine. In reading all of that steampunk and finding those characters that you like, and you want to write about - because I use Scrivener, you have the photo option to put your vision of the characters, the places, the ships - you put photos in there and I work with a split screen so I can always reference that, so I never really lose track of it. But yeah, it was great looking into all that steampunk stuff and going into like Cassandra Claire's 'Clockwork Angels' series or Scott Westerfield's 'Leviathan' series. And if I can get even a little bit of that spirit I'll be really happy. But it starts with loving steampunk. You really should write what you know and write what you love. I've never been an airship captain but I love reading about them and I love that whole idea. And you know, thinking about like 'Leviathan', that series has a powerful gender bending quality to it, with the girl because she has to, dresses like a boy and acts like a boy in order to have a career - and I love that. I hope I've engendered Landa with that a little bit as well. Jeff: What went into creating your world of magic in Ireland and steam power and clockwork in England, because there's so much that you can pull from to create the steampunk universe. What was your decision to make these things your universe? Michael: Steampunk is - one of the amazing things about it is, an amazing thing about worldbuilding as well, is you can go with historical fiction. You know, like my first book and it's wonderfully creative but you're also stuck with... you can't lie. It's historical fiction, you can make up characters and you can make up some things, but really if you get too far away from reality, people stop believing in what you're writing about with historical fiction. At least I think so. I stuck with the roaring 20s pretty well and that kind of thing. Steampunk is like a little bit to where you're in the 1880s Victorian era. But then you have these advances and you can get creative and wild and all of that. A lot of that came from traveling for me too, like I've traveled to Ireland and I kissed the Blarney Stone, which of course means I'm full of B.S. I guess, the gift gab you know. And then I went to England and I went to Stonehenge and I played around amongst all of the hinges there, because that's where they keep them, and how a lot of fun. And the idea of the magic stones and power and Irish magic and castles - and then of course the troubles with the war between Northern Ireland and England - and I just rolled that back 40 years or so, and brought all that magic and the Stones and the power, I brought all that together and that's really where the idea came from. I also wrote a comic book like 20 years ago that had a lot of the fantasy stuff in it and it never got published but I tweaked it and changed it throughout the years. You can almost say that this part of this book- the backstory, the fantasy magic side - is about 20 years in the making, which I guess makes this a labor of love. Jeff: That's very cool that it goes back quite that far. Michael: Makes me feel old saying it out loud. Jeff: You could have had the idea when you were 5 or 6. What do we have to look forward to as the as the trilogy progresses - without obviously spoiling anything necessarily - but what can you kind of hint at about the story arc? Michael: Well, you know I'm a big fan of sci-fi, and Steampunk is really an offshoot of sci-fi in a way, or vice versa I guess. But, you know 'Star Wars' originally was 'Star Wars' and then they added 'A New Hope' to the title when they were like, "Well, you know Darth Vader is still out there." I mean, you know they gave Luke and Han Solo some medals. But, you know, then you get Darth Vader out there. So I love that idea of there's always more. If you look for it, if you see the little bits, like there's actually Darth Vader and an emperor... we're still at war guys, so come back for 'Empire', and guess what, it's going to get darker and worse and that's really kind of what's happening here - the book sort of gives you an ending but - and I think so does every book [in the series]. It has an ending, but it really isn't. If you're reading it, you know there's a lot more that's about to come down, and we might lose some people along the way, and maybe find some new people that you love, who's together might not always be together. Jeff: So with everything, between the magic and the clockwork and the steam and everything, your story, your book bible for this must be huge. Michael: I used this great British author named Ellen Gregory who did some high seas adventure, and she read an early Edit 2 and gave me some criticisms - which I kept calling British-isms - and gave me some pointers in that, and we were joking about that too, that I have one hundred pages on the parts of a ship... hundreds of pages and you could just bore people to death writing about that. It's like giving that little bit to make it believable, and make it feel fantastic or whatever, and then let it go. And then I just use that incredible knowledge about mid ships and jibs at parties. I can talk about all that stuff at a party now, but you don't put too much worldbuilding in, but it is fun. I do have lots of stuff, like when I'm writing, there's fairies in the book and I did so much research about Oberon, the king of the fairies and all that history. And then my amazing editor Dawn Johnson at Dreamspinner/Harmony Ink - I mean the whole team has been amazing, and each person has challenged me. Which is really part of the deal, you have to kill your darlings right? You have to allow some of your characters to change with some of the professional feedback. And so, anyway, I was able to use that research and pull it in and I still miss stuff, and some of those editors were like, "Hey, you know the name of that person? Shouldn't it be this, for this reason historically?" I'm like, "Yep, I don't know what I was thinking." You know, And so it really takes a village, you know. Jeff: What do you hope people get out of this book? Michael: What I'm hoping to get out of it is enough people interested to get a whole trilogy out of it and to get an audio book. I really want to hear this story come alive - the swashbuckling adventure come alive. I hope people get entertainment out of it. I hope they feel empowered and maybe challenged on their beliefs a little bit, which is, you know, a lofty goal. And it sounds like hubris to say it, but I hope people read it and see the LGBTQ+ world is just like everything else. It's steeped in mystery, and history, and great characters with amazing depth, capable of heroic acts and terrible evils, and everything in between. You know, some people will write a character and be afraid to make the gay character or the trans character do something horrible, but that's wrong. They have to do everything that everyone else does in order to make it real. And so I'm hoping people will forgive me if I do something horrible to a character, or make them do something terribly wicked... you know, mustache twirling - and not, of course, hate the straight characters that do bad things as well. Jeff: Right. Now, you kept a lot of this book in your family, in some ways too, because your husband Jason Buren did the cover and interior art - and the cover is gorgeous. Michael: Thank you. I love the art. Jeff: How did he come to get involved in it an what was it like collaborating with him on those elements? Michael: Well, Jason's an amazing artist and graphic designer. We actually worked on the first one together and we worked on comic books together and what I realized through it - honestly working with Dawn and the great editors, kind of makes you realize some things - you have to back up and state your vision. Say what you want. Show covers of things you like, and things you don't like, and then not micromanage it. Because then what you're going to get is my artistry, which I'm a writer you know, not technically a graphic artist. So you really get your best work if you let the artist kind of figure it out and that's what happened. I let go of the reins of both books and I think that the covers are amazing, if I do say so myself. I think this cover is so exactly what I wanted to be, and I was unable to say it out loud. And that's what a good artist should do in the interiors too. I wanted so badly to have chapter art and I know that people don't have to let you do stuff like that, but [my publisher] Dreamspinner was so amazing. I pitched this idea of clockwork meets fantasy with the Dragon Wing and the clockwork gears together So I'm so excited to show some of that together with the dragon wings with the mixture. Anyway I'm so excited and geek about it. I even got a little gears as text breaks in the art, in the books, it's really fun. It's really gorgeous. But you, know let go and see what happens. That's the idea. Jeff: When you were here in Episode 42, we were talking about a historical m/m hockey romance called 'The Long Season'. This is a total departure. Unless you can talk about the fact that you're dealing with historical times. Had you always seen in your career switching genres so completely? Michael: You know that's a great question. I want to challenge myself to do something completely different every time. And so, like being a new writer, writing historical fiction was crazy. That's too much to take on. I said, "Well, whatever. It's a labor of love, you know?" So then for my second novel, a trilogy? Themed like science fiction? Like, "Oh you're crazy, that's too much. You're not going to handle it." And who knows what we'll see. The first one got picked up, thank you Dreamspinner and I'm super excited about it. I want to challenge myself and I love that genre. So I say, let's do something completely different. People ask me about doing a sequel of 'The Long Season'. We're doing another hockey book. You know, I'm really proud of the fact that I wrote a character, Maggie in 'The Long Season' who was Brett's best friend. Turns out Bret's best friend started off with John Paul, which I'm really proud that people want a Maggie story and I think that's amazing. Who knows when that might happen. I might do that. My grandmother certainly, when she read it before she passed away, she said it can't end here and she's right... another story. And I did all that roaring 20s research... who knows, I might go back, but I want to challenge myself to do something different. I could write another hockey book because I love it and I love the whole romance side of it and who knows. Jeff: I was thinking you need to find a way to introduce hockey into the Infernal Instruments universe. Michael: I mean, there might be some sports related in there a little bit, but like medieval hockey? That would be fun. I mean the 1880s isn't too far away from Lord Stanley, so they could theoretically run into Lord Stanley somewhere. You know that can happen. Good idea. Jeff: Do you foresee more in this universe, potentially if the if the trilogy works out and is successful? Michael: Yeah. I mean, you know, I think it's set up perfectly for a TV show. That's huge right. But I've even thought about - I have a friend who's a game designer and I even thought about... man, that would be amazing. That whole steampunk idea is a huge world and you'll see in book two, the world's even bigger than you see in book one because it's a world at war. It's a world half conquered by clockwork powered England and half conquered by magic powered Ireland. So everywhere you go France, and Germany, and Africa, and potentially the United States. Are they even the United States? It's a huge world, so the stories could go anywhere. You know I think of like, Gideon Smith books. 'Gideon Smith and the Mechanical Girl' I think the first is called. They, at some point, they end up in an airship going to the United States, and the Wild West, and Egypt, and all kinds of things. Steampunk is open. Jeff: I hope that just keeps going and expanding. So what's coming up next for you? Are you done with book two or are still writing on the trilogy ,and can you look beyond this first trilogy? What's next? Michael: Well, interestingly enough, it goes back to your last question. Books two and three, the trilogy, has a beginning, middle, and end in my head. Of course there could be more after that, much like 'The Long Season', but in my mind I've already started about halfway through writing a third completely different genre book, challenging myself with something completely different, which is a contemporary YA book built on my travels to Antarctica. So it's a YA, two young people who meet and fall in love on a cruise to Antarctica. Sort of a travelog and what happens, and the interesting things, and people, and penguins that they see. I won't give away too much, meaning - that's what I'm in the middle of now. Jeff: That's exciting. A little something new there. Again, totally disparate, but you mentioned what you want to keep mixing it up. Michael: So yeah. And we'll see how that works out. I'm working with a gender nonconforming character, which is really new for me, it's taken lots of research to get intersectionality in the forefront of the book, you know not as a ploy, but as a reality of the world that we live in, and people that need representation. So I'm really excited about that. Jeff: Hurry up and write that please. Michael: All right. Hopefully, if you're willing, you'll probably see it before anybody else as a proofreader. Jeff: What's the best way for folks to keep up with you online, to keep up is as 'Infernal Instruments' continues and this new contemporary book starts to take shape? Michael: If they go to my full name - MichaelVanceGurley.com. Go on there and there'll be links to my two book sites and to my Instagram, they can go to Captain Rhetoric on Instagram and find me, that's where I write self-involved book reviews where hopefully people care about what I think about these amazing books that I read, and travel pictures, and just little bits like that, not too much of me, just sort of what I see about the world. I like to do that on Instagram and that's the best way to keep up with me. Jeff: Well I wish you the best of success with 'Absolute Heart'. It's been great to talk to you a little bit about it. And when that contemporary is done you'll have to come on back. Book Reviews Here's the text of this week's book reviews: The Masterpiece by Bonnie Dee. Reviewed by Will.The Masterpiece by Bonnie Dee is a makeover story with Pygmalionthemes in a historical setting. Essentially, an irresistible gay version of My Fair Lady. The story centers on a guy named Arthur. He is the well-to-do gentleman in this particular scenario and, one day, he's out enjoying the good life with his bestie, a guy named Granville. Occasionally Arthur calls Granville, “Granny” and it totally cracked me up. Granville believes very heavily in the British class system. Arthur is a little more modern in views. He feels that if a man has the wherewithal and can pull himself up by his bootstraps, he can achieve anything with his life, no matter where he was born on the ladder of social hierarchy. In order to prove their different theories, they set a wager, and that bet involves Joe the shoeshine boy. Arthur must make Joe a gentleman in six weeks. It is there that he will make his debut at the biggest party of the social season. Joe moves in with Arthur who is very glad that to realize that Joe is not only very smart and very kind, he is hardworking and interested in bettering himself. Joe is undertaking this particular makeover because he has dreams of owning his own men's shop one day - with a focus on finely crafted shoes. They get down to work and, after spending several days studying and learning which fork to use, they decide to get some fresh air. So they go for a constitutional in the park where they unfortunately run into Granville, who's like escorting some demure young ladies. Joe does very in his first unexpected like test. Arthur and Joe now realize that they have definite feelings for one another. Their next test comes during an evening at the theater where they unfortunately run into Granville yet again (this dude's everywhere). Granville has befriended a professor of linguistics, and Arthur knows that Granville is only befriending this schlub because he plans on bringing the linguist to the party to expose Joe as some sort of lower-class fraud. Joe handles the situation admirably. He's proving himself time and time again, but Granny is not going to give up. He makes sure that Arthur's family is invited to the big soiree, and his family comes to stay, making it nearly impossible to have any alone time with Joe. Finally, the big evening arrives and everything goes swimmingly. Joe is tested but everyone is really charmed and quite taken by him. When it comes to Pygmalionstories there is usually a point in the narrative where the Eliza Doolittle character has to wonder if the professor is in love with her, or the person that she's pretending to be. We kind of skip over that in this particular story because it's really obvious that Arthur and Joe are like completely into one another. What ends up happening is that Joe feels guilty, his conscious getting the better of him. All these lords and ladies and debutantes are remarkably kind to him, and he feels genuinely bad that he's pulling the wool over their eyes. That guilt eventually leads him to leave Arthur's house sooner, rather than later. Arthur and Joe try to figure out how can they make their relationship work, but they can’t. Even though they've essentially won the bet and they've proven their point, the fact is that the class system is still very much a thing and the two of them are from two different worlds. Joe packs his bags and leaves and Arthur ends up going to India. He has been convinced by his brother and his father that he has to finally grow up and take part in the family business. While he's away, Joe uses the money that he earns from the bet and opens his own shop. When Arthur finally arrives back in England, there's a big declaration of love scene because they realize they are both utterly and completely miserable without one another. And they both vow to find some way that they're going to make it work. I really, really loved this book an awful lot. I loved these two characters that Bonnie Dee created I was rooting for them the entire time. The Nobleman and the Spy by Bonnie Dee & Summer Devon. Reviewed by Jeff & Will.Jeff: Bonnie and Summer are both new to me authors. The Nobleman and the Spy, which I would call a second-chance romantic suspense historical, was a complete delight full of intrigue and some steaming hot sex. Solider-turned-British spy Jonathan Reese is assigned to keep watch over German Karl von Binder. Jonathan knows Karl all too well because during the war Karl spared Jonathan’s life. It doesn’t take much for Jonathan to lose focus on his mission and pay attention to the man who has come back into his life. He’s also aware that he cares too much for Karl to allow anything to happen to him, despite the fact that his orders as the mission begins are a bit mixed if he should allow the man to be killed or not. Karl, despite the forbidden attraction to Jonathan, tries to keep the spy at length, sure that he can protect himself. As evidence piles up though that there’s someone on Karl’s trail, the two end up working together trying to figure out who’s behind it. It’s a tangled web that I didn’t quite believe even as it was all falling into place. The resolution was certainly something I’d never anticipated as I tried to solve it as I read along. It was quite a thrill. I loved the feel of this book. In often reminded me of a childhood favorite TV show, Wild Wild West, which was set in the same time period of the mid 1860s. While this isn’t set in the American west with some strange characters as villains, the time period comes through loud and clear in a rich setting and how the characters carry themselves. I also liked how Karl and Jonathan recognized that they couldn't give in to their attraction but the more they couldn't give into it the more they really want to. And then when they got together it was so intense. Narrator Todd Scott I have to say does a terrific job with the entire story but the sex scenes…off the charts! Will: What really struck me and what I enjoyed the most is that it's essentially a bodyguard trope and it has all the different things that go along with that but in a historical setting. So it was sexy and it was fun and there's lots of adventure and action. I really enjoyed this one as well. Jeff: Calling out the bodyguard trope is really appropriate. But what makes it a little different, at least to me, is that Karl doesn't really want to be guarded. But Jonathan certainly takes that role because he keeps reinserting himself even where he's taken off the case. He wants to keep Karl safe at all costs. So, yes, we both highly recommend The Nobleman and the Spy by Bonnie Dee and Summer Devon.

Jeff talks about going to the reading and Q&A for Frederick Smith and Chaz Lamar's In Case You Forgot. The guys also talk about their recent trip to see the musical The Drowsy Chaperone starring Bruce Vilanch. It's a Heidi Cullinan double feature this week as Will reviews Nowhere Ranch and Jeff reviews The Doctor's Secret. Jeff talks with Jacqui Greig, the creator and editor of Blush magazine. Jacqui talks about why she created the magazine and what sparked her love of all things romance. We also find out about the books that she writes and how she encourages anyone who is interested to start an online magazine. Complete shownotes for episode 197 along with a transcript of the interview are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Interview Transcript – Jacqui Greig This transcript was made possible by our community on Patreon. You can get information on how to join them at patreon.com/biggayfictionpodcast. Jeff: Thanks for coming to the podcast Jacqui it is so great to have you here. Jacqui: My absolute pleasure. Jeff: So Will and I have loved “Blush” since the first issue came out and. Jacqui: Thank you. Jeff: I love what one of the things on the website that talks about you where it says “I may or may not have started this publication and in order to fangirl my favorite authors without getting slapped with a restraining order.” Jacqui: Pretty much. Jeff: Which sounds so awesome. It’s like a mission statement. Jacqui: But it’s so true. I used to finish reading a book and then I just I loved it so much that I wanted to be best friends with the author. I wanted to know everything about them. I just you know wanted to delve into their heads I guess. And that’s kind of what “Blush” lets me do. Yeah without getting hit with a restraining order. Jeff: We feel the same way about the podcast it’s so great to just dive in with these folks. Jacqui: Yeah absolutely. Jeff: Tell us a little bit for our listeners who may not have discovered blush yet. What is the magazine kind of all about besides obviously of course romance books? Jacqui: So essentially, it’s an online magazine for romance readers. So I just wanted something that was specific for people who read romance and there’s already so many amazing blogs and podcasts that I just thought a magazine would be a fun way of getting that information across. And yeah. So it’s kind of interviewing authors, looking at the different books that are coming out at the moment, the different trends in the industry. I’m calling it an online digital platform. There’s even things like I imagine what a particular heroine in a book would wear. And I based a fashion page on that. So it’s just kind of interpreting the romance genre in different ways. Jeff: It really is because you go so much further than a Book Review blog or like what we do on the podcast because you do have, as you mentioned, the fashion thing or I believe in June it was the ‘book crush’ with Jamie Frazier which everybody can have that crush, right? Jacqui: Right? Jeff: There are elements of reviews that work their way in, but then you do some dives on the industry too, or talking about tropes and such. Jacqui: Yeah. I think that’s probably my background in journalism as well. I used to work on magazine in Sydney. I worked in a travel magazine and on a hair magazine of all things. And then I started my own magazine, a women’s lifestyle magazine, which was print – that was more than 10 years ago now. So the industry has evolved so much since then and it’s so much easier to do a digital magazine than it is a print magazine. Yes. So I just thought I’d give it a go. Jeff: How do you decide what goes in to each issue. Because there’s so many things to pick from. Jacqui: I know there’s so many things to pick from and it’s actually been a little – it’s getting easier every month because the magazine is getting more widely known and people are actually messaging me, emailing me, then giving me content ideas, which is fantastic, but it’s just whatever I like. Yeah. I don’t know. Whatever I’ve been reading or what I’ve seen or I am quite big on Instagram I get a lot of inspiration there. Jeff: Yeah. And I enjoy watching your Instagram just because it’s so creative. Jacqui: I’m a graphic designer as well so I see lots of cheeky quotes and things like that and I just redesigned them for my own purposes which is fun. Jeff: Your July issue will have been out a short time by the time this episode airs. What can readers find in July? Jacqui: So I’m super excited. In July I have three authors that I definitely fangirl over. So I’ve got Eve Dangerfield. I’ve got an interview with her. I have an interview with Sarah MacLean and an interview with Abbi Glines. Jeff: Wow. Three of them are all in the same issue. Jacqui: Yeah, well in my very first issue I had Beverly Jenkins and Kylie Scott and I thought, “Right, I’m happy to finish this right now. I’ve reached my peak.” That was epic for me. I think romance authors are so generous with their time and knowledge and it’s just such a beautiful, interesting industry to be in. Jeff: Yeah, it really is because there’s so many warm people who are just happy to tell their story and tell everybody about their books. What are the regular sections that readers look for each month? Jacqui: So I generally start with a ‘Lust-Haves’, which is just kind of products/bookish things that basically I would like to be spending my money on. I think in one issue I had a pair of cashmere socks that were like one hundred and ten dollars and I had a girlfriend calling me, she said, “You didn’t buy those, did you?” I didn’t. I’d like to. So yeah, we did ‘Lust-Haves’, we do an IG profile. I pick an Instagram account that’s really inspiring and has gorgeous images and profile them. We’ve got our author interviews. I generally have a couple of features. So for example, in the current issue we did one on the rise of rural romance. So it’s basically Australian authors writing romance set in rural settings… on farms which is really lovely. I live in a small country town myself, so I can really identify with that. We do a ‘Book Crush’ every issue. So that’s just a hero that we’ve got a bit of a crush on at the time and it’s really fun to contact the author and find out what they had in mind when they were writing that character. I get them to share their Pinterest pages with inspiration that they drew when writing, which I love. And there’s a bookshelf at the back, which features a lot of books, and it’s a really great showcase for indie authors I think. So yeah, that’s kind of it. Jeff: You say that’s kind of it, but that’s a lot. I mean, there’s a lot of stuff that goes into these issues. What kind of overall timing and process goes into creating a single issue? Jacqui: Well, having done in my previous life the print lifestyle magazine that was a whole circus. So I had staff and we had an office and because that I was spending forty thousand dollars an issue just to print it. So it was big. Right. So because [Blush] is digital – it’s online – my overheads are tiny, it’s literally me sitting at my kitchen table and, I have I don’t have it here, but I literally designed up on an A3 bit of paper for weeks and split it into the days and split the jobs across it and I laminated it so that I can write over the top of it – every issue. And it’s actually not too involved I think because I know what I’m doing. And I love what I’m doing. And I think as a working mother you become… I just have to get shit done. Like I just, I’ve got no windows in between kids being at school or ballet lessons or you know all of that kind of jazz. I just have to really, really be productive with my time and bang it out. Jeff: And I think the online magazine in a lot of ways gives you a much broader design to work with than if you were locked in to any kind of website format. Jacqui: Yeah, I think it’s fun because you can flip through the pages. It kind of it feels interactive and you can, you know, I can put gifs onto the pages so there’s movement, there’s different animations that you can use. And it’s just readers really like the tactile experience of a physical magazine. And because I can’t do that, I think a digital magazine – it is still something different from a blog post and not to say that, you know, there’s some fantastic blogs out there, but this is just a different format. Jeff: Yeah, it’s a different medium, but it’s going to be interesting, I think to see if other people move in that direction. I think we’re all so used to seeing blogs that this is another similar but different way to go. Jacqui: Yeah, it’s just a bit fun, little bit different. Jeff: July is also kind of a milestone for you because it’s six months old for the magazine – issue number six. What’s your favorite thing to write about so far in those six months? Jacqui: I think the interview with Beverly Jenkins, that was kind of amazing. She’s an icon in the industry and she’s so generous and I couldn’t believe that she’s giving me the time of the day, especially because I hadn’t published a magazine by that stage. I literally had nothing to show her. She just kind of said, “Yeah sure.” So that was really incredible. I do freelance digital marketing, which I’ve just stopped, and I’m focusing all my energy on ‘Blush’ because I really want to give it a go. I felt like I was building other people’s dreams, helping them build their dreams and I wasn’t really putting any time into my own. So yeah, I’m kind of all in with this. I got skin in the game now. Jeff: That’s awesome. It’s a good feeling. Jacqui: Yeah, it really is. And I do need to say my husband is super supportive and I’m very lucky. But yeah, like this is my gig now. Jeff: What’s surprised you over the six months. Jacqui: I don’t know if it was surprise. It was probably just reinforced how wide and how deep this romance genre is and how amazing it is. I mean, if Alexa Riley can beat Michelle Obama in the rankings on Amazon, that’s huge. Jeff: And you’re right about the romance genre being so big. I have found, so far, that you try to cover seemingly all of it. You’ve featured all kinds of romance including LGBTQ romance. Jacqui: Well, that’s a that’s a big sector and it’s valid and I know that, especially in the states, you’ve been having a lot of diversity talk at the moment – and so you should. ‘Blush’ is a vehicle for the romance industry and I want it to encompass all aspects of that. Jeff: And we talked a little bit before we started recording that it was ‘Blush’ that first put ‘Red, White & Royal Blue’ on our radar as the thing we needed to watch out for in the spring. Jacqui: Well, I’m sure you hadn’t seen it with me, you would have seen it very soon because it has been so well received and validly So like she’s amazing, Casey’s [McQuiston] she’s going places. Jeff: Yeah, absolutely. What got you into romance? Jacqui: So my parents owned a newsagent when I was younger. And romance novels were distributed by magazine companies, which meant that if they didn’t sell, it was cheaper to rip the cover off and throw it out than it was to send it back to the company. So I used to scavenge through the back bin and I just fell into it. I read to my heart’s content. The only problem was, that because it didn’t have a cover, I knew the title, but without that image on the top on the cover and the title, I can’t remember any of them. And probably I was reading so many of them, I was just kind of consuming them. But yes, so that’s how I got into it – scavenging. Jeff: That is awesome. What a great way to get books. Jacqui: I know right. I mean it’s so demoralizing and awful for an author to think about – that’s how some of your books may end up. I don’t know if that’s still the practice – I would hope not. But yeah, that’s back when I was 12 or 13. That’s how we did it. Jeff: On the other hand, I mean how terrific that it must be – Yes, they didn’t get paid for – but they inspired somebody to go out and create something like this later in life. Jacqui: Well that’s true. That’s a really nice way of looking at it. Oh, thank you. Jeff: You can’t remember some of the titles and authors obviously, but do you remember what tropes and what sort of elements of the story fueled your interest in the genre? Jacqui: I read a lot of the historicals, which I loved. But I kind of stopped reading for a while – going through high school and then university – and got back into it with Kylie Scott, who’s an Australian author who wrote a romance in a zombie apocalypse, which is very far removed from historical romance, but freaking awesome. She wrote two books and a novella and then found mainstream success with her Rockstar romances. But she kind of got me back into reading romance, her and Amy Andrews who is another Australian author. She’s got a ‘Sydney Smoke’ rugby series, which is a series of books set around a rugby team in Sydney and she just has the dialogue down pat, like she is so dynamic with her writing. Yeah, she is really, really incredible. I think those two got the ball rolling to get me back into it and now I don’t really have a favorite trope or a favorite genre. I will literally read anything you put in front of me. I will read it. Jeff: That’s awesome. I’m kind of the same way. Will has is his thing where he likes contemporary/low angst – may take a few diversions off that path… But if I like the blurb, I’m at least game to see where it goes. Jacqui: Exactly. Yep. I’m with you. Jeff: Now, since we are an LGBTQ romance podcast, what are some of your recent reads, kind of in that genre. Jacqui: So what I’ve really loved is that some of my favorite authors are diversifying. I guess they’re going into that queer space. So Kate Canterbury, she wrote The Walsh series – which I devoured I loved – and then it’s an offshoot. There’s a lobster fisherman who marries Aaron and Nick in book 6. And So the lobster fisherman he gets his own book and he falls in love with a tech tycoon. And honestly it was one of the hottest romances I’ve ever read. Like it was. She nailed it. And that was her first male/male book. And I just went, “Oh wow, you’ve done such a good job.” Also Tessa Bailey she wrote a male/male. What’s it called… I wrote it down. ‘Heat Stroke’. She wrote ‘Heat Stroke’ which is just really sweet. And the relationship between the two men, it was so believable and she’s really good at characterization. She’s fantastic, but my absolute favorite of mine is Sierra Simone, who wrote the ‘Camelot’ series. So it starts with ‘American Queen’ goes to ‘American Prince’ and I actually haven’t read the third one because I got a spoiler and I don’t have the emotional fortitude at the moment. Jeff: I understand how that it goes. Jacqui: But she just writes… So it’s a male/female/male, but the two guys, they’ve been in love for so long before Greer, the woman, actually comes into it and just the depth of their love for each other. And she’s, I mean, it’s kind of filthy – the writing, but awesome. It’s emotional and it’s just, yes, she’s fantastic. Jeff: Since you look at romance really from around the world for ‘Blush’, because you’re in Australia and have read so many Australian authors, do you see a difference of what romance is around the world – what gets written into the books from the native authors? Jacqui: I think that a lot of Australian authors are actually setting their books in the US. I don’t know if that’s a marketing thing or if that’s just what they read and that’s what they want to write, but then there’s a whole crop of Australian authors who are writing rural romance, which is set on an Australian farm as opposed to an American ranch. So you know there are differences in words I guess. I don’t know. Apart from that though, I kind of think everyone’s just writing their own happily ever after. And it’s and in different ways, using different tropes, different locations. I do wish that there were more Indigenous Australians writing romance novels. I think that would be amazing. There are some amazing Indigenous authors, just not so many writing romance, so that that would be really incredible to see. I actually am writing as well. I’m sure everyone who reads is trying to write as well. So I’ve just published my second book, but I would like to co-author a book with… I grew up in a small country town with a high indigenous Aboriginal population. So I went to school with all of these Aboriginal girls and I need to make contact with them and see if one of them will sit down with me and co-write a book, a romance from their point of view. I think that would be amazing. I don’t think that I would have the guts, I guess, to write from that point of view, even if I had a sensitivity reader come in and read it afterwards. I really do think that their issues and their worldviews and, you know, they have their differences and you’ve got to do justice to that. Jeff: So what do you write? Tell us a little bit about your books. Jacqui: Well my full name is Jacqueline, and my maiden name is Hayley, so they’ve written under Jacqueline Hayley. And second, which literally I published yesterday, it’s ‘Getting Under Her Skin’, and it’s set in Sydney. So they’re contemporary romances that are a little bit sexy, I don’t think I really want my mum reading them. Jeff: Yeah that’s awesome. Any chance of a male/male book in your future? Jacqui: Yeah, I think So but I think that, again, I would want to team up with a gay male author to help me do that. Like, I just I don’t want to presume that I would know their life experiences. So I think that would be super fun. Jeff: I hope you get to do that. We’d have to have you back on the show to talk about that when it comes out. Jacqui: Absolutely. Jeff: What can you tell us about upcoming issues [of ‘Blush’] for the rest of this year? Jacqui: Oh, the rest of this year. So I’m actually heading to the Australian Romance Writers Association, their annual conference is in Melbourne, and I have lined up some authors that I’m going to do video interviews with as bonus content for my readers. So we’re just finalizing the details of that, but I do think that video, which can be embedded into the magazine – in the magazine we also find YouTube clips and things as well, the digital magazine format allows for that, which I think is really fun. The video will start to become a little bit more of a thing with the magazine, as much as I don’t really want to see myself on video, I think that it would be really fun for authors, who are normally behind the pen – behind the computer – and you don’t see their faces or hear them. I think that that would be a really fun thing to do. Jeff: Very much looking forward to that. It’s great seeing how the video gets in there to really make this interactive magazine. What’s the best way for people to keep up with ‘Blush’ online and how do they get the subscription? Tell us all about that. Jacqui: So at the moment, to be able to read the magazine, you have to head to the website which is blushmagazine.com and sign up with your email address. So it’s free. And then the magazine gets emailed to you, well a link to the magazine gets sent to you, so that you can view the magazine. Previous issues are available on the website, so you can you can click through there, but probably I’ most prolific on Instagram. That’s kind of where that’s my jam. That’s what I like doing. So you know, for cheeky quotes and books that are coming up, all the behind the scenes of what I’m doing here, that’s Instagram, is where it’s at. Jeff: Very cool, and can readers of the magazine get in touch and suggest ideas? Jacqui: Absolutely. I love it. The interaction is one of the best things that I love about what I’m doing, so I get DMs on Facebook, Instagram, and my email is hello.BlushMagazine@gmail.com. Jeff: And what would you say to anybody who is like, “Gosh, I really like that. Maybe I should start my own.” Jacqui: Yeah. So I guess have a look at the different platforms that are out there to do a magazine on. I use readymag which I really love. But there’s also issu, which I’m kind of looking at as I get bigger. That might be where I go just because you can get more stats on what particular pages people are staying on longer. That kind of thing. So I guess just have a really clear view of what you want to put in your magazine, you’ve got to structure it like a real magazine. So go and get a physical magazine, you need a contents page and an editor’s letter and kind of build it from there, but just know that readers like continuity, so if you’re going to start a section, you’ve got to kind of continue it. So have a really clear idea of what kind of content you want to do. I haven’t done this and I probably should have build up content so that you’re an issue ahead of yourself so that, you know, just to for timing I guess, that would make life easier. I like making things hard for myself. Give it a go, like why not? Compared to the money that I used to put into print publishing, digital publishing… there’s barely any any cost. So yeah, give it a go. Jeff: Cool. Hopefully somebody will take up the inspiration because – at least the way we feel concerning podcasts, the more podcasts the better, the more magazines the better, the more blogs the better. Jacqui: Built this industry! Jeff: Yes absolutely. Well Jacqui, thank you so much for telling us about ‘Blush’, we’re going to link up to everything we talked about- the authors and the magazine – in the show notes, and we look forward to see what comes out in future issues. Jacqui: Thank you so much for having me. It was just the highlight of my week. Thank you so much. Book Reviews Here’s the text of this week’s book reviews: Nowhere Ranch by Heidi Cullinan. Reviewed by Will. Admittedly, I’m a little late to the party when It comes to this book. When I posted online that I’d finished reading Nowhere Ranch, I got a slew of responses, “Isn’t it the best?”, “That’s my favorite Heidi book.” So, for the few that haven’t yet experienced the sexy wonder of this cowboy romance, Nowhere Ranch is about a young guy named Monroe, Roe for short. He’s the prototypical lone cowboy who’s just landed a job at Nowhere Ranch. On one of his free nights, Roe travels several hours away to the nearest gay bar. To his surprise he runs into his boss, Travis Loving. After some flirty banter and surmising that they are both definitely into each other, they spend one wild night together in Travis’s hotel room. Roe tries to keep things professional with his boss, but Travis is just too damn irresistible. After a trip to the rodeo, he gives into his desire yet again. His hook-ups with Travis are so amazing that he begins to reconsider his ‘no relationships’ policy. When it comes to the bedroom, Roe likes things a little kinky. Travis is more than willing to give him everything he wants. After a rough and raunchy tumble in a horse stall on his birthday, Roe is so turned on and turned around, that he just doesn’t know what to do. Guys, this book is incendiary. I’m no expert when it comes to Heidi Cullinan’s books, but the few that I have read, have ridden that delicious line between sweetly romantic and utterly filthy. The kink explored in Nowhere Ranch isn’t your mommas 50 Shades style slap ‘n tickle. This is hardcore stuff in the best possible way. Back to the story. Hailey, the daughter of the ranch foreman, becomes fast friends with Roe and it becomes her personal mission to tutor Roe so he can get his GED. After learning some English composition basics, Roe writes an essay especially for his boss entitled, “Why Travis Loving Should Fuck Me”. What’s wonderful is that the entire text of the essay is included as part of the story. It’s sweet, it’s funny, and it leads to some more smoking hot sex for our two heroes. Unfortunately, the course of true love never did run smooth. A letter from the family that rejected Roe years earlier, forces him to examine what “home” really means. Home is definitely Nowhere Ranch. Some drama eventually forces Roe to make an unwanted trip to deal with the backwards, judgmental people he once called his family. With Travis and Hailey by his side, he sets things to rights and accepts that he is, in fact, worthy of his very own happily-ever-after. There’s a brief time jump at the end of the story to show us just how happy the happily-ever-after is for Roe and Travis. It’s wonderfully schmoopy and surprisingly sweet for a story that is so dang filthy. It just goes to show, that in the hands of a skilled author, kink doesn’t have to equal dark or angsty. The story of two hot and horny cowboys can be just as swoon-worthy as the lightest of rom-coms. The Doctor’s Secret by Heidi Cullinan. Reviewed by Jeff. This book had me at its cover with its clean design, heartbeat along the top and the handsome doctor. And I snatched the audiobook out from under Will because Iggy Toma was doing the narration. As with my other experiences with Heidi and Iggy, this one was above and beyond. The Doctor’s Secret brings Dr Hong-Wei Wu, or Jack as he tells the staff to call him, to Copper Point, Wisconsin. Hong-Wei’s left a high powered residency and his family in Texas to re-locate to this tiny town that needs a surgeon. He also hopes to lead a quiet life here. That’s derailed almost as soon as he steps off the plane because he meets Simon Lane, the hospital’s surgical nurse and the person who was dispatched to pick him up. Simon wasn’t quite ready for the attraction either. He’s in Copper Point working alongside his two best friends who all wanted to stay and give back to their home town–a place so small Simon’s sure he’ll never find a man for him. Hong-Wei is torn from the beginning because he came to Copper Point to get away from complications, but he can’t deny the immediate attraction to Simon. He tends to put himself under a tremendous amount of pressure to always do the right thing, even if that means saying yes to things he doesn’t want. As Simon learns more about Hong-Wei–from his love of classical music as well as his dislike for most pop music, his love of Taiwanese food and even the meticulous way he wants his operating room set up–only made him fall for the man more. Simon’s incredible from the get go. Instead of using “Jack,” Simon wants to use Hong-Wei’s given name and takes the time to learn how to pronounce it. It’s super adorable too how Simon can’t believe Hong-Wei might be flirting with him–their interactions at the hospital are super cute as they both easily get flustered. Their potential relationship comes with great risk. Copper Point is a small town with small town drama and shenanigans. St. Ann’s Hospital has a stranglehold on its employees with a hospital board that attempts to rule with an iron fist. This includes a no-dating policy. As they grow closer though, Hong-Wei’s having none of it, insisting he’ll protect Simon. Simon’s friends Owen and Nick, also doctors at the hospital, help the two get together in secret. As you can imagine neither men want to live in secret, and the more they fall for each other it becomes more difficult to keep it. Beyond Simon catching Hong-Wei’s attention, he starts to fall for the entire town of Copper Point. From the owners of his favorite restaurant to his co-workers to the local orchestra. It’s far more than he ever planned for and he’s not quite sure how to manage all the feelings of peace and happiness he has here. When a medical emergency forces Hong-Wei to reveal more of himself than he planned, the major power struggle begins around the dating policy and the future of St. Ann’s. Heidi does a tremendous job about making us care not only for Hong-Wei and Simon, but for everything that’s at stake for the town. There’s so much to love in this book between Simon and Hong-Wei, their friends, the citizens of Copper Point. The book also has one of the best grand gestures ever. It gave me all the feels. Kudos to Iggy Toma for a brilliant performance, infusing everyone with strong emotions and rich personalities. The tender moments between Simon and Hong-Wei are perfection. I’m looking forward to Owen and Nick’s books in the series. Owen’s is already out but I’m hanging tight for the audio and Nick’s book releases in August.

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Happy Pride Month! Jeff discusses the awesome Pride Month video from the NHL. He also talks about all the things that happened during release week for Netminder. Members of the Queer Sacramento Authors Collective had a reading this past week at the Lavender Library and will be reading again this coming week at Time Tested Books. The live streams are available on the podcast’s Facebook page. We talk about the Coastal Magic Convention 2020 lineup of m/m romance featured authors. We review the Elton John biopic Rocketman. Jeff reviews Max Walker’s A Lover’s Game. Will recommends books for Pride month: Pride: The Story of Harvey Milk and the Rainbow Flag by Rob Sanders, Stonewall: A Building. An Uprising. A Revolution by Rob Sanders, The Stonewall Riots: Coming Out in the Streets by Gayle E. Pitman, Stonewall: The Definitive Story of the LGBTQ Rights Uprising That Changed America by Martin Duberman and The Stonewall Reader curated by The New York Public Library. Jeff interviews C.B. Lee about the latest book in her Sidekick Squad series, Not Your Backup. We also discuss the origin of the Sidekick Squad, what C.B. hears from readers and what’s coming up next. Complete shownotes for episode 191 along with a transcript of the interview are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Interview Transcript – C.B. Lee This transcript was made possible by our community on Patreon. You can get information on how to join them at patreon.com/biggayfictionpodcast. Jeff: Welcome C.B. to the podcast. It’s great to have you here. C.B.: Hello, thanks for having me. I’m so excited to be here. Jeff: Yeah, it’s very exciting. We got to see you last year at the LA Times Festival of Books for a little, teeny, tiny interview. But we’re thrilled to have you back as we start to talk about “Not Your Backup” which will come out on June 4th, just the day after this airs actually. C.B.: Oh my gosh, that will be really exciting. I actually got to touch the advanced copies for the first time last week at YALLWEST, which due to this fun time jumps of podcasting… Jeff: Well, actually a bit about a month ago. C.B.: Right, right. But, yeah, it was really interesting just to, like, hold it for the first time and see it in print. Granted, the advance copies have typos since, you know, I went through and did all the pass through the typos. But it’s fun, it’s fun. It’s great that, you know, it exists, it’s in physical form, hasn’t quite felt real till now, but now it’s a real book or will be very soon, or tomorrow for your listeners and readers. Jeff: There is something about holding that physical copy, even if you see it, you know, even if it’s on your tablet as an ebook. It’s like there’s nothing like that paperback when it gets there. C.B.: Yeah. Jeff: Now, “Not Your Backup” is book 3 in the “Sidekick Squad Series.” And, for those who haven’t experienced this series or heard of it, tell us what this series is all about. C.B.: Sure, it is about a group of queer teens that take on a corrupt government superhero agency. And they live in this sort of post-dystopian world where superheroes are kind of treated like celebrities. And there’s, you know, shadowy government organizations and mysterious heroes, league of heroes, that kind of dictates who gets to be a hero and who gets to be a villain. And our protagonists all kind of uncover this huge conspiracy, and then they work together to build a resistance and take it down. Jeff: It’s quite the world that you’ve built here. I mean, you hit so many things that are dystopian, U.S. future, superheroes, villains. What was your inspiration for all of this? C.B.: So I’ve always been fascinated by kind of the, like, post-apocalyptic or dystopian worlds. But a lot of the media that I’ve read mostly focuses on kind of the…when you’re in the middle of the disaster, when you’re in the middle of the catastrophe, when everything is going wrong, how are people struggling to survive. So I really wanted to see a world that was…you know, so this is more of like a solarpunk take where the world has started to move forward, where it’s 100 years after all of these disasters have happened – kind of the impetus for the superpowers. And my book is a really extremely intense solar flare that catalyzes latent gene in people. And then after the flare, which knocks out a bunch of nuclear power plants, also, it starts kind of a chain reaction of a bunch of environmental disasters. So 100 years later the governments of the world have kind of shifted and changed, there’s been wars, there’s been fights over resources, so the United States is now part of the North American collective, which is the entire continent of North America, which is now the habitable places. There’s, you know, 24 regions, which is, you know, kind of what’s left of the states. So there’s different areas all across North America, which are now the regions in which people live and, you know, continue to move forward with, like, their amazing technology, and hover tech, and all this amazing, clean technology. But, at the same time, you have all of these like high-tech cities, but outside of those regions, everything else is like the unmaintained lands. So, you know, the government is claiming there’s radiation danger and don’t venture out, but, of course, our heroes are like, you know, what the government tells us isn’t necessarily true. So a lot of…actually, the fun of writing “Not Your Backup” is one of my working titles was “Not Your Road Trip,” because there’s a lot of road tripping in this book. Jeff: Yeah, I noticed. There’s a bit of a road trip in the sneak peek that I got to read too, that they’re out on this road trip, essentially on a mission. C.B.: Right, right. Yeah, there’s the heist in the beginning of the very first chapter. But, yeah, there’s a lot of fun. We get to see a little bit more of the country outside of the cities in this book, so that’s exciting. Jeff: Now, each of the books deals with one of the main heroes, if you will, or the sidekicks, if you will, given the titles of the book, but they’re really the heroes. In “Not Your Backup”, we focus on Emma, who is really the only one of them without the powers. What’s happening to our heroes this time out? C.B.: So at the end of “Not Your Villain,” we have destroyed the registry, which…the big name of everyone who’s ever registered with powers that Captain Orion was planning to use to kidnap people and use for experiments. At that point, our heroes have been looking for the resistance the whole time. And they find a mysterious group that’s been leaving messages on encrypted channels. But then, at the end of the book, they realize that this is actually like a group of nerds that have been joining together to watch movies like “Star Wars,” and “Harry Potter,” and stuff. So they realize that they need to start the resistance. So that’s where we are at the beginning of “Not Your Backup,” where Emma and Bells are back in Nevada, and they are kind of in the midst of this fledgling resistance group – meanwhile, Jess and Abby are at the villain’s guild hideout in the Rockies and they’re trying to corral all the other meta-humans into taking action. So, the beginning of the book, you know, where kind of everyone has different goals, but then they all come together. It’s more about like building the resistance and finding… For Emma, it’s her journey in finding who she is. And, really, she’s a very natural leader, she loves coming up with plans, and she’s definitely a Gryffindor. She’s the first to jump in and try to take action. Her default is, like, fight me. But she also is, as you mentioned, she doesn’t have powers, and so when she’s trying to take a more active role in the resistance, she kind of butts heads with a few of the other members as they have different ideas about who is and who isn’t part of the resistance. Jeff: She just needs to remind them that Batman didn’t have powers either. He just had a really good utility belt and brains. So she could definitely fill that role. What’s been the driving force behind deciding the type of character that you have at the forefront of each book? Because the three books have very different, distinct character types and personalities, and just everything about them is just…they’re just very different from each other. C.B.: So, from the beginning, I wanted to tell this story about, you know, this fun adventure story with queer protagonists. So each book would center on another one of them in the main four. So there’s…and then after “Not Your Backup”, there’s one more book which will be Abby’s story, and so she will round out the quartet. But each of their…you know, they have very different personalities, but it’s been interesting writing their stories because each of them are on their own journey in what makes them a hero and finding how do they define success, and how do other people see them, and how do they see themselves. So, for each story, because we’re moving forward in time, as we get to see who is really, you know… It’s been interesting, because all four books will fit together as a series, but in each book, everyone gets to have their own journey. Jeff: Which I really like because we’ve been introduced to all of them all the way back, you know, back in the first book, but then they get to their own story, which could essentially be read as a stand-alone, if you wanted to, I guess, although reading all of them together is much better. What was the bigger challenge to come up with the trajectory of these four diverse characters or to build this alternate universe of the U.S., or were they kind of equal challenges? C.B.: I feel like the challenge for me is I’m not like a great outliner or I haven’t ever really been a planner. So I’ve always been more of the pantser in the writing style. So when writing a series, when I wrote “Not Your Sidekick,” I didn’t know, up until I think I was about 50,000 words in when I realized that I could not basically solve the problem in that one book, you know, because when I pitched it, it was one book. And then I was like, “Well, I really love all of these characters.” There’s a huge…there’s a bigger story here that I’ve introduced, and I will need more than one book to solve it. And so, from the get-go, I knew the next story after Jess would be Bells because you get into, like, the backstory of the meta-human training and the heroes, league of heroes. And so, I think, overall, just planning a series is really challenging. Some people are great at it, where, you know, they have very detailed outlines, they know, from the very beginning to the very end, what the key points are going to be. And so, as I was writing book 1, I kind of had a panic attack and I was like, “Oh, no, I have to figure out what’s going to happen in each of the books.” And then as I restructured things and then writing book 2 and then 3, it’s kind of come to a point where I’m working on book 4 and now, like, everything that I… One of the reasons why it took me a longer time between book… So “Not Your Villain” came in 2017 and “Not Your Backup” is coming out in 2019. So I didn’t have a book come out last year because I was still working on crafting the storyline because whatever I did or didn’t do in book 3 would determine what would happen in book 4. So everything had to fall into place, and I had to like figure out a lot of stuff. So it was challenging, but I think, you know, it’s still challenging, but that’s part of the joy of writing is to figure out how to tell the story you want to tell. Jeff: If you do a series again, do you think you’ll try to do outlines more in the upfront or now that you’ve had this experience, do you kind of know how to do it and keep your pantser ways going on? C.B.: I don’t know if I’ll ever… Like, I feel like with each book, I’m like, “Oh, do I know how to write a novel now?” But like every book is its own challenge. I do have a better sense of like, okay, you know, how do I plot as a pantser? And then plotting for pantsers, and like learning how to like… For me, I just tend to think of an outline like a road map where I have these destinations I wanna hit, but I’m not committed to – I don’t have to see everything and if I go off track or take a different route, that’s okay as well. So as long as I kind of get the same…like, it’s all in the journey of how I get there, and then the destinations that I pick along the way, if I get to them or not, that’s cool. I kind of have these benchmarks that I want to reach. But I really like thinking of the framework in which I think about my books as a roadmap. So I’ll try to plan out, you know, all the cities I want to visit, but I’m open to discovering places along the way and kind of building up on that. Jeff: How does the pantser sort of method work while you’re world building? Or do you try to, at least, before you start writing, “No. This is my world. This is what’s happened. This is what the U.S. looks like now, and how all that works?” Or does that come organically as you go as well? C.B.: I actually thought like, really early on established the world and what it looked like. I drew a map of which countries were left and which, how, who, what alliances were made in probably much more detail than you’ll ever see in the books because basically I plotted out what happened in that World War III, and what areas were no longer habitable, and all of these things, and all the different lines of, like… I probably spent way too much time figuring out the socio-economic holes, ramifications of which country is now aligned with what country and which countries refuse to join a union or…and they’re all new countries. So there is this whole political backstory of, like, which country fought….you know, which alliance was at war, which alliance and what’s still happening overseas. Some of which you’ll see, but it is the world itself. I’ve always enjoyed world building, and I think it’s really fun to come up with the…I think once I wrote book one where I established, like, how do the powers work. Every power level is different. For example, like the A class, B class, or C class, depending on how…basically, I wanted all the meta-humans in my world to…their powers basically are dependent on…like, they have a limited number of time per day that they can use their powers. So once they’ve used it, then they can’t use it for the next 24-hour period. So it’s a different sort of look at superpowers and abilities because you have to be more mindful about how you use your powers. And so that was an element that I established early on, but overall, I think for me, world building, there are some details I discovered along the way, but I pretty much plotted the world building which is a funny like…and it’s interesting to think about, even though I do consider myself a pantser, how much of this series I did very much envision out from an early stage. So like some of the confrontations and the fight scenes, and the stuff that… I’ve been planning one particular scene in book 3 since book 1, and I didn’t get to do it until… And, so that was like a fun way to be like, “Oh, yes, I’m finally going to like write the scene that I’ve been waiting for.” But I’d had a lot of these moments in my head, and just planning it out and getting the opportunity to like, “Okay, yes. Now, I’m getting to that chapter. I’m getting to the point in the whole series where we’re getting…you know, it’s coming full circle.” So that’s very satisfying. Jeff: It sounds like you’d have a lot of bonus material too if you ever wanted to release it, if all the stuff that you’ve got of the world itself, and the disaster, and how it’s split up. C.B.: Yeah, I mean, potentially, I have a whole timeline that I could release. And then I did these fun… For “Not Your Villain,” I did all the deleted scenes, well, deleted as far as they were cut for length. But I still consider it part of the story, the cannon. So those are an extra that are available on my website. I’ll probably do something similar for Backup, but I’m not at that stage yet. Jeff: Right. It’s good to know about the Villain extras. I’ll be going to check those out. C.B.: Yeah, yeah, they’re fun. They’re all in one PDF. And my book designer, C.B. Macera, was amazing. And she formatted them the same way as the book because we have a lot of extra art as well because she does these amazing, like, chapter headers for each chapter. She’s so talented and amazing designing the covers and the interior of the book, really, you know, capture that feel. And so, “Not Your Villain” actually, in the edits, went from…yeah, it was cut a lot. So, you know, it’s really sad as a writer to kind of see these scenes go, but, you know, as far as, yes, and my editors are great about, like, “This scene is great. But, you know, it kind of slows down the pacing,” or like, “This scene takes us in a different tone or direction, and, like, while they’re great, they don’t fit in the story at that moment and kind of take us away from the main action.” So I understand why they had to go. And, yes, the story is stronger overall, but I like them as an extra. Jeff: Yeah, we’ve all gotten used to those on DVDs over time, so there’s really no reason books can’t have them too. C.B.: Yeah, yeah, it’s a fun extra to have the deleted scenes. Jeff: So you mentioned one more book in the series, the fourth one, is that gonna be it for these heroes? C.B.: Yeah, I can’t say for sure that the door is completely closed. But for this arc, this storyline, that will be the series. It will be completed with Abby’s book. Jeff: We could treat it like the Marvel Universe. Now, if phase 1 is over, and there could be a phase 2 eventually, once you figure out what that is. What got you started in writing? C.B.: I love telling stories. And think I was very young when I tried, like, writing a story for myself. I had an old notebook that I would scribble this adventure story in when I was in sixth grade. And then I’d kind of start and then every recess, I’d pick it up or I’d work on it when I was supposed to be doing homework or stuff in class. And so I’ve always wanted to tell stories. I didn’t really think of it seriously as a career. And then, after college, I went to school for science. And so I was going to get a PhD and do all this stuff, and I, you know, ended up going a different route. And really writing has been a journey where it kind of comes…it ties back to, and I guess like the “Sidekick Squad Series” and the titles were all, you know, the titles are all about, like, hey, I’m not who you think I am, I’m not the person that you’re claiming that I should be or expect me to be. It comes back to where, as a queer woman of color, I didn’t really see a lot of myself in books growing up. And so what I really hoped to write was, like especially when I was writing Sidekick for the first time, I wanted to write a book for my 16-year-old self. So this is the book that I wanted to read. And I wanted it to exist. And so writing…and then I also just like telling stories. So I wanted the story to be fun, I wanted them to be happy and have, you know, there’s drama in them. But overall, I wanted to see kids like myself, and kids who looked like me, and other kids, that reflect the world that we live in because trans kids exist, asexual kids exist, mentally ill kids exist. And there aren’t enough stories where they get to be part of something that’s a superhero adventure, or something fun and fantastic like this. And so I wish that I hope…and I think there are definitely now, in the past, you know, 5, 10 years, there’ve been a lot more stories, and I think that’s great. So I’m just really excited that now people are writing more and more and reading more and more, and there’s a lot of great books to come. Jeff: And one of the things to not…I don’t want to knock the coming out story because those are very important and very needed. But in these books, that’s not really part of it. I mean, this is a much bigger adventure these teenagers are on that just doesn’t revolve around their sexuality so much, that just, there’s so much more going on, which I think is awesome and gives everybody something different to read. C.B.: Yeah, I love that…like, I want us to have the breadth of different types of genres and stories that there are for, like, able-bodied heterosexual people. Like, I want there to be so many stories to choose from. And so, you know…and I really love…I think there’s a lot of power in having joyful stories as well and stories where, yes, sexuality is a part of it, but, you know, who I am is not just my sexuality. Like, every person is multitudes where who you are is made up of so many things like your passions, your dreams, your hopes, your hobbies, your friends. Who you are as a person isn’t just one thing, and we’re all…I love being able to explore that and getting to see… I want people to see that people in the LGBTQ community are like fully nuanced people that get to be complicated and have flaws and go on adventures, or fall in love, or discover more about themselves in the way that all straight people can. Jeff: Well said. I like that for sure. Who were some of your author influences as you got started on your writing journey? C.B.: So I really love the “Harry Potter” series growing up. That’s a huge influence for me. That was one of the first ways I started writing was “Harry Potter” fan fiction because I loved that world so much. And just a lot of…I read so much fantasy like Ursula Le Guin, Diane Duane, Eoin Colfer, like tons of fantasy, Jane Yolen. I started to read a lot more widely. I think when I was a kid, there was a point when I would like go to the YA section and just read like everything in the library. So I would pretty much read everything, but I tended to love fantasy and sci-fi the most. Jeff: Nice, and now you get to write your own. C.B.: Yes. I’m really lucky. Jeff: Is there a genre you want to branch into as you close up the “Sidekick Series?” C.B.: I’m excited to write more fantasy. So the “Sidekick Squad” is more sci-fi, speculative. So I’m working on some fantasy stuff. I’m excited to share it. I have some contemporary stuff. I have a short story coming out next year in the next “All Out” anthology. So that’ll be fun. It’s like a very fluffy high school romance that’s just set in like… The only magic is the friendship and the romance so… Jeff: Aww, sometimes that’s all you need though. C.B.: Yeah, yeah, it’s fun because when I was writing it, I hadn’t written just contemporary in a long time. So that was really fun to try and explore that. Plus, I got to put a lot of puns in there, so it’s all good. Jeff: You seem to travel a lot. I feel like every time I see you on social media, it’s like, “I’m going to this event” or, “Here I am at this event, come see me over here.” What drives you to be out on the road so much? C.B.: So I like the opportunity to see, meet readers. I live in Los Angeles, and I’m really lucky to have the opportunity to go to a lot of events that are fairly local. I also think it’s really important to travel when I have the opportunity to, and I’m lucky that I’ve been able to, and sometimes I will just commit to doing it out of my own pocket because I want to meet readers in those areas. So I love…yeah, I already said it, I love meeting readers. But, especially in places where you don’t get a lot of, you know, LGBTQ resources, or teens don’t necessarily get to see a lot of authors or books with this content come their way and getting to meet teens in, you know, small towns or getting to meet people even though I do a lot of web chats. And so that’s fun chatting with libraries or classrooms through the power of the internet, which is amazing. But, part of being on panels and having these conversations is important to me just because, you know, I get to share with people that might not have heard of my books before or are just learning about it for the first time. And so that’s always a very special moment to me when someone’s like, “Oh my gosh,” like, “This is exactly what I’ve been looking for. I didn’t know it exists, but now I do.” And so that’s very meaningful. And sometimes I get to meet people who have already read the books, and that’s very important to me. And that’s a part of the most rewarding things to me as a writer is knowing that your work has made an impact on someone, whether it’s just making them smile, or, you know, to the depth of having someone like… I’ve cried over several really long emails just because sometimes people are really sweet and talk about like, “Oh, this is my coming out experience”. I want people to see that they’re valid. And so knowing that someone else has read my work and recognize themselves, that’s one of the most rewarding things I’ve ever done. I was in Seattle recently, earlier this year, and one of the events I did was with the Seattle Public Library where we went to the LGBTQ Youth Center. And that was really powerful just to, like, hang out with kids and chat with them and what are they looking forward to as far as like, “Hey, what’s powerful to me, what’s fun to me?” A lot of this is stuff that I totally resonate with when they connect with a character on TV or are upset that, you know, that character got killed off in one season or whatever, because of TV. But, you know, it’s always great to chat with people. Everyone’s always going through something. Jeff: Yeah, for sure. So we’ve hinted a little bit about some stuff that’s coming up for you. You’re working on Sidekick 4, you’ve got a short story coming out next year, anything else we should know about? C.B.: I’m also writing the new “BEN 10” original graphic novels with BOOM! Studios and Cartoon Network. So one is already out. It’s called “The Truth Is Out There.” It’s where “Ben 10” is part of the Cartoon Network show where Ben can turn into 10 different aliens. So it’s fun. It’s a fun, middle-grade romp. So I’m doing a number of those graphic novels with BOOM! So those will be available throughout…I can’t recall the dates off the top of my head, but another one is coming out in July, and then one more in October of this year and then the next year, there will be some more coming as well. Jeff: What’s it like writing for graphic novel because, I mean, that’s a different sort of animal, a novel that, you know, is 60,000 or 70,000 words long? C.B.: It was definitely a new experience. It was a lot of fun trying a different medium. Like, definitely writing a script goes differently as far as…and I catch myself like “Oh, I’m being too descriptive. This is literally…the only person who will see this is the artist.” And it’s also a great collaborative process. So it’s really fun to work with the artists and editors and bring together this story that exists in its own medium. It’s not just me, the writer, but what the artist is bringing, and collaborating with them, and getting to like…you know, I’ll write the dialogue and the action. And then they’ll imagine it in a certain way of like, “Oh, I didn’t think of that,” and that’s really fun. I really like the graphic novel format. I’m hoping to do more. I’m really excited to be working on these projects. And, yeah, hopefully, I’ll be able to share more upcoming projects. Jeff: Pretty cool. And speaking of, what is the best way for people to keep up with you online? C.B.: You can always find me on Twitter and Instagram at, C-B-L-E-E_C-B-L-E-E, because it’s double the trouble. My website is cb-lee.com, and then you can find more links to other ways you can connect with me. Usually Twitter and Instagram, where you can find me the most – that’s where you can connect with me. So in my website, it has like fun stuff. I try to update it with writing resources and my upcoming events. And I also have a newsletter, which will have some special tidbits probably like the deleted scenes, which is the very first place I offered the “Not Your Villain” extra scenes. Jeff: Pretty cool. Well, C.B., thank you so much for hanging out with us. We wish you all the success with “Not Your Backup” when it comes out on June 4th. C.B.: Thank you so much for having me. And I really appreciate it. I’m so excited. And I hope everyone enjoys the book. Book Reviews Here’s the text of this week’s book reviews: A Lover’s Game by Max Walker, narrated by Greg Boudreaux. Reviewed by Jeff I was so happy that this fourth book in Max’s Stonewall Investigations series released in audio just a couple of weeks ago. I’ve been eagerly awaiting the final installment of the series and I was not disappointed. The series has been working up to the final showdown between private investigator Zane Holden and the Unicorn Killer. The Unicorn has loomed large over the series–a serial killer that terrorizes the gay community in NYC. The killer’s gone after partnered gay men and Zane’s husband was aomng the victims. In the first book we find out the Unicorn’s returned and now in the fourth one Zane’s obsessed with bringing the reign of terror to an end. At the same time, Zane is preparing for his wedding to Enzo, the defense attorney who captured his heart in that first book. Unfortunately, Zane is so occupied with the case, he’s missing things, like cake testing and venue selection, and he hasn’t told Enzo that he’s even back on it. Zane thinks he’s protecting Enzo by keeping his activities a secret, but Enzo feels it puts him more in danger not knowing. And boy does everything hurtle towards a massive, satisfying conclusion. Max had me super stressed in this installment. He always does a great job of creating suspense. Here though I suspected everything. Is the Uber driver a killer? Is that bottle of wine spiked with something? What does it mean that someone looked at them on the street? Is the person providing information or misinformation? I suspected everything and also never figured out who the Unicorn was ahead of the reveal. I love that! While Zane and Enzo have been featured in the middle two books of the series, it was great to see them returning to the spotlight. Their dynamic as the move towards their wedding date was wonderful to watch. The quiet, sexy moments they share along with their wedding planning and time they spend with Enzo’s family shows their strong relationship and amazing friends. And, man, are there some super sexy times in this book. There’s always steamy scenes in this series, but these were the best yet. Max contrasts these happy times with how they handle the increasing threats–they want to be strong for each other and also do what’s necessary to keep the other safe. They find it’s hard to maintain the balance and that only increases the tension. I both hated and loved what Max put them through because it was so realistic. Is it weird to say that I liked the terrible choices were made? Despite being great at their jobs, Zane and Enzo sometimes do things that are terrible choices and what makes those so good in the story is that I could see myself doing the same thing. These two are flawed and make bad decisions like anyone can. It makes them human. It makes you scream at them to not do something. It makes you cheer when it all works out too. Kudos to Greg Boudreaux. He’s done a great job with this series overall but I have to shoutout his work voicing the Unicorn. It’s a creep, calm yet evil voice that made me shudder. The spin off for Stonewall Investigations Miami is set up here too. That first book, Bad Idea, just released last week and I can’t wait to pick it up as soon as there’s an audio version.

Jeff discusses a deleted scene he’s offering this week from his upcoming book Netminder (Codename: Winger #4). He also recommends The Queer Creative Podcast. Will and Jeff discuss the second season of Netflix’s She-Ra and the Princesses of Power as well as Pose, which has just arrived on Netflix ahead of the new season coming to FX in June. Jeff reviews Queer as a Five Dollar Bill by Lee Wind. Gail Carriger talks to Jeff about her new novel, The Fifth Gender and some of the interesting stories about its creation. They also talk about how Gail went from archeology to writing romance, her process for world building and her travel podcast called The 20 Minute Delay. Complete shownotes for episode 189 along with a transcript of the interview are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. This interview transcript is sponsored by Dreamspinner PressDreamspinner Press is proud to publish Hank Edwards and Deanna Wadsworth’s new book Murder Most Lovely. Check it out, and all the new mystery and suspense titles from your favorite authors like Amy Lane, KC Wells, Tara Lain, and Rhys Ford, just to name a few, and find a new favorite author while you’re at it. Go to dreamspinnerpress.com for everything you want in gay romance. Jeff: Welcome, Gail, to the podcast. Gail: Hello. Thank you for having me. I’m super excited to be here. Jeff: I’m so glad we finally got you on the show because I’ve been, you know, reading since back with “The Sumage Solution” and it’s like, “We gotta get Gail on. We need to get Gail on.” Gail: I am delighted. I am a devoted listener and so I’m quite honored to finally get to be here. It’s great. Jeff: And you’ve got a book coming out or you’ve just had a book come out actually, “The 5th Gender” just released. Gail: I did. Yes, “The 5th Gender,” it’s my like crazy, ridiculous, silly, happy yet cozy murder mystery on a space station with an alien with five genders and tentacles and purple. Jeff: You don’t often get cozy mystery space station together in one package. Gail: It is…it’s great. It was totally one of those spontaneous, I had like a strange thought/dream/idea to do this. And a bunch of us were joking on Twitter about the craziest mashups of genres we could come up with and somebody was like, “Barbarian noir,” and so on and so forth. And I was like, “Well, I wanna do space station, cozy mystery.” And then I started thinking about it and then it happened. Then I was like, “Oh, okay, I’ll write it, I’ll write it.” I was supposed to be writing something else, of course. But sometimes I succumb to the lure of the ooh, shiny. Jeff: And it was a purple shiny too. So how could you resist that? Gail: I could not. And he’s adorable, the alien character. And I, you know, I have a background as an anthropologist. I have an archaeology…couple of archaeology degrees. And so I just love the way if you’re doing an alien character, you can comment on human social structures and culture and interactions. And so I might’ve had a little too much fun with that. Jeff: Well I was actually gonna get into that. I’ll hold that. Because we should at least tell folks, because I want to talk a little bit more about the origin story on this because you wrote about it. So just like, “I had this idea in the middle of the night, and then I tweeted it, and then it was a story,” which I love, but then there’s the fact that you went away to a retreat and worked on it and had to talk to other people about it while you were writing it. Gail: Yes. So for those…I should preface this by saying that for those who don’t know, I have two names I write under. So I write under Gail Carriger and I write under G. L. Carriger and the G. L. stuff has a much higher heat level. So it’s super sexy. And this book, “The 5th Gender” is a G. L. book. So warning for anybody who doesn’t like nooky because one of the things I realized through the course of that particular writing retreat was that if you’re writing about a species with five genders, human curiosity wants to follow them into the bedroom to see what it’s like down there. And so I thought about trying to kind of clean it up a little bit and it just…it didn’t work. So I was like, “Okay, we are going into that realm.” So I was supposed to go on this retreat and write something else entirely, and instead I just spent the entire week writing this book. And one of the funniest stories from that was me being like, “Oh shoot, what does alien jizz taste like?” Because we all know, at least we do if we’ve been reading my San Andreas Shifter series that wizard or mage jizz is fizzy and werewolf is spicy. And I was like, “Well, what do aliens taste like?” And this meant that I literally had to go and you’re never…on a retreat, you’re never supposed to disturb the cooks in the kitchen. But I was like, “If there was ever a question for cooks, this is it.” There is a crazy author running into the kitchen in the middle of them making shepherd’s pie and being like, “Oh, you guys, what does alien jizz taste like? Debate.” So we had a long debate about it and we finally decided, and you’ll have to read the book to find out. Jeff: Yeah, I wasn’t gonna ask you to spoil that, but I do have to know what exactly did the cooks make of this question? Gail: The cooks were quite game actually. I think they were pretty charmed because normally like they’re doing their art form and we’re doing our art form and never the twain shall meet until meal times. So it’s really rare for one of the authors to actually want the cooks’ help on something. So I think they were kind of pleased to be asked. Jeff: That’s very cool because some of them might have been like, “I’m sorry, what?” Gail: Oh, they know what I write. We’ve been going for a long time with the same cooks for a while, so. Jeff: So this group knew you so they weren’t necessarily surprised by… Gail: No. Well, it was a little out of the blue. I haven’t been writing the super sexy stuff for very long. Like normally my questions are like, “What’s the most ridiculously named, you know, Victorian dessert you can think of,” kind of thing. But yes, it was a little different from my usual questions. Jeff: And tell us what this book is about, this cozy mystery on a space station. Gail: Well, the tagline is an alien race with no word for murder has a murderer aboard their spaceship. And essentially the galoi are the aliens in question. And they are these purple…they’re these adorable sort of purple tentacled kind of, you know, High Elf, slightly looking alien creatures. And they are super isolationist. And the only thing that humans know about them is occasionally they will kick one of their genders. It’s always as one of the examples of the fourth or fifth genders and they’re kicked off and they’re in exile, and those galoi, which is the name of this alien race, go and live amongst humans. And humans actually adore them because they think they’re like sweet and cute and adorable. And they have no…they’re pure exiles. So they have no national allegiance, they have no planetary allegiance. And so they make really great attaches. They’re kind of really kind of comforting and lots of different alien races like to be around them. So they often become attaches to like ambassadors and stuff. So a lot of space stations….space stations consider it really lucky if they get one of these. And the main character, Tristol, he’s one of these aliens and he has a mad crush on the human security chief/detective that’s onboard the space station named Dre. But he doesn’t really get kind of like human flirtation and courting rituals. So he’s sort of…the book sort of starts with Tristol trying to figure out what cats are and why you would wanna keep them as a pet because he’s been asked by some human friends to cat sit. And then, of course, the cat escapes and hijinks ensue on the space station because what happens when the cat gets into zero gravity. Nobody wants to find that out. Anyway, and then the galoi are like super xenophobic, so they never reach out to humans. And then suddenly a galoi ship approaches his space station, which is crazy in many, many ways because they shouldn’t be approaching a space station that has an exile aboard it and they never talk to humans anyway. And they have this incredibly complicated non-pronoun language that kind of indicates status and has to do with all of these different genders. And so the humans are kind of panicking and freaking out. They don’t want a war. They don’t know what’s going on. And the spaceship basically says, you know, “We have a murdered galoi and we don’t know what to do. We don’t have security, we don’t have murder investigations. We don’t. So we came to you, violent humans, to figure this out for us.” And of course Dre, the human love interest is the detective. So he and Tristol have to team up because he needs Tristol’s help to explain how the galoi work. And so the two of them gonna figure out who done it and that’s basically it in a very large nutshell. Jeff: How did you go about creating the galoi? I mean, five genders, no term for murder. There’s like so many things that kind of click into this. Is there like…? Gail: I just, so like I said, I have an anthropology background. I mean, archaeology is blank, so obviously the biology and skeletal structures and things is what I mostly studied via anthropology, but you get a lot of like gender studies and cultural representations of gender and all that sort of thing as part of an education in the United States if you do an archaeology degree. And so it’s always been super, super fascinating to me. I have a minor in classical mythology with a focus on gender. It’s just something that has interested me. It’s really hard to tease out in the archaeological record. It’s prone to misinterpretation by archaeologists and historians and anthropologists. So there’s a sort of storied history with our own relationship from a scientific perspective with understanding gender. And so I just took a lot of that both kind of my education and, you know, how the world now is changing. I spent far too much time on Tumblr, so I have a lot of like non-binary and gender fluid and gender queer fans. And so I’ve just been kind of reaching out to friends and acquaintances. One of my best friends in the world is a bioethicist and a medical ethicist. And so she deals with training doctors in how to talk to people appropriately about gender. And so I’ve had all this sort of stuff messing about, and I was like, “Well, a way for me to explore this and have this kind of conversation with myself and the world is through an alien lens.” And so I just…I love thought experiments, and I was like, “So what if we have a race with five different genders and how would their language evolve? How would their culture evolve? How would they treat each other?” Like all of these, you know, archaeological things to think or anthropological things to think about. And then how would humans, even future humans, react when encountering that? And so that’s kind of where the conception started. And then I just made them purple because I like purple. Jeff: Why not? I’m a big purple fan too. Was there a lot of research kind of building this? Gail: Yeah. I actually have multiple blog posts that either I’m releasing them right now or I’ve just released them recently, speaking from the past into the future. But I have a bunch of blog posts about like a bunch of the research that I did and like some book recommendations and stuff like that, both from a fictional perspective and a nonfictional perspective and different blogs and stuff like that. But I like that. I like researching a lot. I try not to rabbit hole too much because the point is to write the actual book. So mostly what I did is I did that intensive week where I sort of just vomited forth this whole book. And then I went back and like teased it apart and looked into different…almost as…I almost treated it a little bit as if it were a nonfiction piece to go back and see what sources do I need to look up, what like different pronoun terms might be being used in hundreds of years, you know, by humans. That sort of thing. And it’s…since both the humans involved… I try to be complex in my races, whether they’re werewolves or aliens in that like…and to not either dystopian or utopianise either race, either humans or aliens. So both races still have issues. Both are still dealing with how the cultures have evolved and all of that sort of thing. So I’m not setting the galoi up as like the perfect model of a possible future. They have a different evolution, a different model. And they’re merely a vehicle for which we can examine perhaps some of our own biases and prejudices now. And that’s getting very, very serious because mostly what I want my books to do is make you happy and cheerful and be excited, delighted. And if it makes you think a little, that’s great. But really I just want to make everybody happy and hopefully Tristol will do that because he’s delightful. I love him. Jeff: What kind of, I guess, beta reading did you do to see how your various fans handle the gender discussion? Gail: Well, I have trans and gender queer and gender bending characters already, both in my main universe and in my traditionally-published books and in all of my…like my independent and my self-published works and in my novellas and stuff. Some of the main characters, some of them side characters. And so I know that they’re open to it, and I also know that the one that, you know, for lack of a better term, I have like a queer-centered, progressive kind of comfort food brand or business model or whatever, however you wanna explain it. And so I feel like most of my super fans are gonna be excited because what they want from me is that comfort, is that sort of upbeat, fun, slightly fluffy, slightly thoughtful, but ultimately, you know, everything’s gonna be all right. I’m never gonna depress you. There’s never gonna be like scenes of torture. It’s never gonna be angsty, you know, all of those things. It’s always gonna be delicious, I guess. Jeff: I like that as a term for a book. That’s just really fun. Gail: Yeah. It’s just gonna be tasty. Yeah. So they know that and that’s the part that they trust and generally I feel like they’re pretty open minded about how I’m gonna go there and explore that. I don’t think I would’ve done this book, you know, five or six years ago because I wasn’t sure. I had to kind of test the waters with the San Andreas books and some of the other stuff. But I think they’re pretty open to it. I don’t know. You never know. We’ll see how everybody reacts. Yeah, so I mean, and I have beta readers and some of them have read it. I was more careful with this book in making sure that like I had sensitivity, what I call delicacy readers. So people within kind of the gender nonconforming community, again, for lack of a better term. That was more important to me really. I don’t wanna offend, although, you know, everybody’s opinion is their own and everyone is entitled to it. So I’m sure if you come to any book with the idea of being offended, you’re probably going to be unfortunately. So, but I did put essentially a naked purple dude on the cover as a kind of like, “Be aware, there’s gonna be sex in this book. We’re gonna go there. We’re gonna go far out there.” Jeff: It’s cozy with sex and it’s funny and it’s sci-fi. It’s got a little bit of everything in it. Gail: Exactly. Jeff: Do you think you’ll revisit this later as like as a continuing series? Gail: I’d love to. Actually, I have another murder mystery and like I don’t consider myself like a mystery writer at all, but I have this thing as a writer where I don’t write a book until I’ve had what I call the epiphany, which is I need to actually see a scene with characters in dialogue. And it might not necessarily be the first scene or whatever, but until I see that I have that crystal moment, I don’t feel like I can write the book. So I have a lot of books that I’d like to write, but I’ve never had the epiphany with. So they’re just sort of sitting there. And I’ve had an epiphany for a second book in this series with Dre investigating another murder and Tristol still there and everything. But I don’t know how people will receive this one, so I don’t know if I will write that one, but it’s definitely there percolating already. So it’s a possibility. Jeff: It’s a possibility. Gail: Yeah. And the universe on the whole, because it is a science fiction universe, actually does have another, of all things, young adult series that’s set at it that’s kind of been on the back burner for a really long time which kind of has nothing really to do with this series except that the same conceits in terms of faster than light travel. And human…like colonization and planetary evolution are the same. And there’s like a couple of crossover alien races, but that’s about it. But it is the same sort of basic far future. Jeff: If you’ve got the universe, you might as well keep using it. So you don’t have to just keep reinventing the wheel. Gail: Precisely. Yes. That’s my feeling. Jeff: What do you hope readers take away from this romp? Gail: Well, like usual, I just want them to be like… My favorite thing is somebody writes to me and says, “You either humiliated me because I was laughing loudly on public transport,” and I’m like, “Yes.” “You kept me up all night.” “Yes.” Or, “You just left me with a big smile.” So that’s really what I genuinely want is a big smile on people’s faces. But it would be nice if people who read it thought a little bit about…a bit more about gender and how we intimately link biological sex with gender and that perhaps that’s not necessarily the…I don’t know, ethical thing to do – that perhaps gender is in fact a social construct. Or cultural construct. It’s something that anthropologists just accept. Like if you’re an anthropologist, you just accept that as a fact. Like we know, we have seen all of these different ancient and modern races or cultures with varying different interpretations of genders and it just…I don’t think it would ever occur to an anthropologist to like not be like, “Yes, gender is cultural,” but it seems that in the world today that isn’t an accepted principle. And so I guess, if anything, I want people to kind of get it, to maybe think a little bit about pronoun use and all that sort of stuff, I guess. Jeff: Now, as both Gail and G. L., you run across a lot of genres. You’ve got your urban fantasy, you’ve got some paranormal. Now you’ve got cozy mysteries in space. Comedy definitely cuts across all of them. Is there a genre you like most? Gail: I would say I have wheelhouses more than anything else. So there’s a podcast called “Reading Glasses” that talks about as readers we tend to have wheelhouses and if you read heavily in romance, you define those often as tropes. You know, like, “I like the enemies to lover,” or whatever. But a wheelhouse kind of has other things. So, and I would say that there are definitely wheelhouses I gravitate to. So I always write the heroine’s journey. I never write the hero’s journey regardless… Again, this is the gender thing, right? Regardless of the biological sex or stated gender of my main character, they’re always heroines’ journeys because a heroine’s journey, it doesn’t matter who’s undertaking it. So I would say that is one of my things. I always do ‘found family’, and I realized recently I had this big revelation that one of the reasons I strongly gravitate to reading gay romance in particular is because found family is a really popular trope within gay romance for obvious reasons because if you come to the queer community, it’s usually partly found family that brings you there because real family rejected you, at least often did when I was younger. So yeah, and I just love that as a trope, for lack of a better word. And so I have found family in my books all the time. I tend to have extremely strong female main characters except when I’m writing gay romance, of course. Yeah, and lots of queer. I was thinking recently that a slogan I really embrace would be queer comfort because I feel like that’s kind of in all of my books even the books that have heterosexual main couples. It’s really hard. At this juncture, I guess you could say that I trust my readers enough to relax and just write what moves me. I wouldn’t have written this book if I didn’t think at least some of them would enjoy it. I mean, what a privilege and kind of a blessing and a joy to get to do that. But it has been 10 years. So it did take a while. Jeff: And you mentioned that you’re not known for mystery, certainly. So you’ve taken this turn now to at least explore it once. Are there other things out there like, going after and trying to write a mystery, that are still things you want to do, things you’re looking at towards the future? Gail: Absolutely. There’s always… Like I adore high fantasy. Obviously, I’m really into world building. And so like I have a young adult high fantasy. It’s actually techno fantasy, kind of like the Pern books or “Darkover.” And so, you know, I’d like to do that. There’s a bunch of stuff that I kind of am excited and interested, and I’m a pretty voracious and pretty wide reader. So I think that makes you, generally speaking, a relatively wide writer. I think it’s unlikely I would ever break the trust contract that I have with my reader base and write anything dark. I certainly would never write anything gritty or gruesome. I don’t like to read that, so I’d never write it. And I think I’m out of my dark phase now that I have left high school. I don’t do the really kind of dark or angsty stuff. I was thinking about contemporary recently actually. And I don’t think I could write contemporary. The moment I start to think about writing something that’s just a contemporary romance or like women’s lit or even something, you know, Heaven forfend, like proper lit fic, it immediately just goes fantastical. I can’t, I have to inject. And if I were to describe myself as anything, it is, you know, science fiction and fantasy rooted, I like the world building a lot. And so I think it’s unlikely that I’ll ever write something that doesn’t have at least that as part of the component. Jeff: So how did you go from studying archaeology and getting these degrees to now becoming full-time author, writing all these books? What was that path? Gail: Oh my goodness. So I’ve two master’s degrees and I was working on my PhD and I always thought I would be an academic. I genuinely love archaeology. I’m one of those incredibly lucky people who left one career that she adored for another career that she adored. So, you know, tragedy of choice. And I was about to do my defense and I was about two years out which would have been my thesis years finishing my PhD. And I always wrote. I just grew up on what essentially amounted to kind of like a hippie commune kind of thing, and surrounded by artists. And the only thing I had learned really from that is that artists never make any money. And so being an author was really a bad idea. So I was like, “Okay, I’ll be an academic because, ooh, profitable.” At least it’s quasi reliable, right? But I always wrote, I just had that need. It’s kind of like breathing or something. And I figure if I write, I might as well submit. And so I was submitting, writing and submitting. And then I wrote “Soulless” as kind of a challenge to myself. I’m a bit of a perfectionist. I have a propensity for rewriting things over and over and over a million times and never actually finishing anything. And so “Soulless” was like, “You will take six months, you will write this weird book.” This was during the paranormal romance and urban fantasy bubble of the late ’90s, early 2000s. And I was like, what I really want from…I want a bunch of things, right? I want women to write funny stuff in genre, commercial genre. And that’s pretty rare. Most of the writers I knew who wrote funny stuff were like Terry Pratchett, Christopher Moore, Jasper Fforde, like a bunch of dudes. And I was like, “Where are my ladies writing funny? Where’s my urban fantasy set in a historical time period?” You know, I wanted all of these things and nobody was writing it. And finally I was like, “Well, that means I have to.” Jeff: Take the challenge. Gail: Take the challenge. And I really did write it as a challenge. And “Soulless” is a mashup. It tends to be what I write, obviously. I mean, I’m here talking about, you know, space, cozy mystery romance. So I obviously like mashing up things. And so “Soulless” is steampunk, urban fantasy, comedy of manners, romance. It’s a bunch of these different things. And I was like, no one will buy this because I had been in and out of the publishing industry and submitting short stories and I was like, “This…it doesn’t have a place in the market. There’s no shelf it sits on, like, no one’s gonna buy this. But I wrote it so I might as well send it out.” And I had one of those slush pile telephone calls from New York where they like…within a month somebody wanted to buy my silly little bit of fluff. And I was like, “No, you’re joking.” And so “Soulless” was a slow burn. It hit the market and it was really word of mouth. The librarians and the independent bookstores were like behind me 110%. They just loved this crazy little book. And I think it was mostly the funny, but you know, super strong heroine and, you know, like gruff, overly emotional werewolves and queer characters from the get go. And it just appealed to, you know, a kind of segment of society. So I was right about to do my defense when “Changeless,” my second book, hit the hit The New York Times and that kind of seed changed everything. It changed marketing, it changed how much money New York was willing to offer me and my partner at the time was like, “I make enough money to support us. Why don’t you see if this…why don’t you take a break from academia and see if this writing thing works?” And I did and I haven’t been back. Jeff: Well done. Ten years on. Gail: Yeah, a lot of it’s serendipity. And a lot of it is good friends. And then a lot of it was also like, I am super…I’m an archaeologist. Archaeologists are like the organizers of anthropology departments. You know, we’re logistics, we get large groups of people into foreign lands and then make them shovel dirt around, you know. We feed them and house them and blah, blah, blah. You know, we’re big on spreadsheets and organizing. So I already had that kind of part of my personality that I think not a lot of authors have. And so when I was successful, I was ready to be like, “Okay, let’s figure out how many books I can write in a year. Let’s figure out, you know, like… I like trad, but maybe this independent publishing thing is interesting. Let me go research that and experiment with that. You know, let’s try this thing.” I’ve always been like that. Even with my traditional publishers, like they would be like, “You sell really good in eBooks.” And I was like, “That’s because I have romance readers.” And they were like, “How do you feel about maybe doing this strange BookBub thing?” And I was like, “I think that’s a great idea. Why don’t we do that?” You know, it’s like I am game. So I think that has also helped is I’ve always been willing to take a risk, partly because I have a safety net. It’s like I can always go back to being an archaeologist. That’s fun too. Jeff: What’s your overall process? I mean, it sounded like, if I understood from our “The 5th Gender” discussion, it almost sounded like you did the first draft of that book at the retreat. Gail: Yeah. I work really well, it turns out, in a competitive environment. I didn’t realize, but if…I really am one of those writers who I’m social in terms of I like to sit across from somebody at a cafe and just type and just the act of having another writer or a bunch of writers around me also typing is really helpful to me. And part of it is kind of looking over and being like, “How many words have you done? Oh shoot.” And then just typing some more, you know. But yeah, so I do this one retreat every year and I know I can do 40,000 words at that retreat, which is either one novella or most of one of the G. L. books. So I usually sort of get prepared ahead of time with that preparation is writing the first 10,000 or just get…I’m an outliner, so I’ll get all the outline ready. I’ll get all the world building ready. And once I hit the ground there, I can just turn out a bunch of words and that’s great. I try to do a couple of other kind of long weekend baby retreats. I’d love to find other week-long retreats. But the style that I like is pretty rare. And the style that I like is just a bunch of writers writing and no workshops or critiques or anything. So I do that and then most of the rest of the time I am not somebody who can handle multiple projects. I learned that about myself the hard way. So I have to be working on one book and then close that book out and then move to another one. And so if it’s an independent project, what I’ll often do, so if it’s something that I’m gonna be self-publishing, I’ll often write the whole thing on a retreat or over the course of a couple of months. And then just put it to bed and then focus on incoming copy edits or a proof pass or writing a completely different project, and let it sleep if I can. I find that that marination really helps. And then I’ll go back and do a reread. And I’m a multiple editor. I think a lot of comic writers have to be because I do passes for like different kinds of comedy. So I’ll do like a word play pass and then I’ll do a sort of a slap stick pass. And then I’ll do like rule of three descriptive passes to try and get as much different kinds of humor back into a book as possible. And so, and then I have an alpha reader or two and they read before it goes either into my New York editor or off to my beta readers. And then I actually hire and use a developmental editor for my independent stuff as well probably because that tends to lean more romantic. And when I first started writing it, I didn’t really think of myself as a romance author. So I wanted to make sure that I was getting kind of the beats right for romance. So I have an editor who specializes actually in gay romance, who reads all of my romances and gives me feedback. And then it goes to beta readers for the Parasol-verse in particular because they’re like, they’re 25 books in that universe and there’s lots of crossover characters. So most of my beta readers are actually just super fans who are obsessed with the universe and have written me like either critical letters about mistakes that I made in terms of like getting character names wrong or eye colors or something. And usually I’ll be like, “You, would you be interested in being a beta reader?” Jeff: Right. Put those people to work. Gail: Exactly. I was like, “If you’re going to do this anyway, how would you like to get everything ahead of time?” And I give them lots of extra perks as well, special editions and stuff. Yeah, so it’s quite a process at this point. But my beta readers are killer. I’ve got just a team of four now and they’re really fast and great. I love them. And then I have a couple of awesome copy editors that I use and then a proof. The Parasol-verse gets a woman named Shelley Adina, who’s a fantastic steampunk author in her own right and a regency and who’s really, really good on the Victorian era. So it gets a world – like historical proofing basically. And then I have a formatter. I’m a big fan of finding people who are really good at what they do and hiring them to do it for me. Like I could change my own oil, I’m sure, but I’d really rather find a good mechanic, you know. And that’s how I feel about the book world as well. So I have a fantastic cover art designer I love working with and I just got to put my team in place and then hope that no one gets sick. Jeff: Right. That’s the key. Nobody can get sick. Not right now. Gail: Nobody get sick. Nobody can leave me. Very floored when that happens. Jeff: So you mentioned that you read a pretty broad swath of stuff. What are you reading right now that you’re loving? Gail: So I just did a reread on Amy Lane’s “A Fool and His Manny,” which because it got nominated for the RITA award and it was one of the few that did that was queer. So I had read it before, I just did a reread on that and I still love it. It’s very cute, and I love Amy. Amy’s one of the nicest human beings in the world. So that was really fun to redo. And I’m a huge fan of Mary Calmes. I don’t know how to say her last name. Jeff: You actually got it right. Gail: Did I? Jeff: You did. Gail: Oh, good. Yes. I will read… Pretty much she’s an auto buy for me. I just find…I know that there are tropes in place that…but I just find her stuff really…she’s a comfort read for me and as somebody who writes what I hope is comforting for others, like I’m always hunting for authors that give me that same sensation. One of my like constant of all things, comfort, reread rotation is Alexis Hall’s “For Real,” which is a fantastic BDSM, but it’s just like, I don’t know what, the writing is so good. And I will reread R. Cooper until the cows come home, the “Being(s) in Love Series,” which I really, really adore. So, which is an urban fantasy basically. Jeff: So you’re a podcaster also on top of all this other stuff. Gail: I am. I know. That is like completely not connected to anything, side project. Jeff: Well, I’m looking at you, I’m reading the website, getting to know kind of what I wanna ask about. I’m like, “A podcast? Wow. Okay.” And it’s about travel hacks called “The 20 Minute Delay.” How did this come about? Gail: So one of the things that happened to me in the course of this career is I went from being an archaeologist, I traveled a lot as an archaeologist, to being an author where it turns out I travel like five times as much. When I was booked, where I’m regularly, I was doing two book tours a year at least. And that was not counting all of the conventions and stuff I was doing. And a book tour is like 10 cities in 10 days. I mean, it’s crazy traveling. So I turned into a frequent traveler and I’m an organizer and I like to hack things and figure out the most efficient way to do everything possible. And I realized I was doing that with travel. And there are two things that I can talk…well, there are three things that I could talk about, books that I love, like literally until the cows come home, food that I love to eat, and travel hacks. And then I met my friend Piper. And Piper has a day job that has her traveling 80% of the time. And she has, if possible, more travel hacks than I do. I was basically like, “Piper, let’s do a podcast. It’ll just be like 20 to 30 minutes and we will just get on and we will chat about a place that we’ve been recently, and some like delicate matter of etiquette when traveling, like whether you recline your seat or not and how you deal with that,” or recently we did a really good one actually on rental cars. I don’t rent a car that often, but Piper does all the time. And she had some awesome tips for like how to get the best rental car and, you know, what apps to use and all that sort of stuff. And then we do a little gadget where we’re just like, we test a gadget, like a new neck pillow or something and then we talk about, you know, what is that little gadget thing. And sometimes it’s just like, I like the snacky bags. Like you should always have at least two plastic snacky bags with you because they just always come in useful. So sometimes it’s a gadget like that, but we have a really, really good time. And I’m a voracious podcast listener. Like when we started, I’m a fan of this show. So I figured, generally speaking, you eventually become a podcaster if you are a big fan of listening to them. Jeff: That’s probably true. And I think for any of our listeners who are, you know, thinking about, you know, their trips to GRL come October, start listening to “The 20 Minute Delay” now to get all your travel situation put together. Gail: Because Piper and I are both authors, like we don’t…we try to couch our tips as much as possible in terms of anybody can use it. But we are both women. We are women who travel alone and we are both authors. So we will tackle things like how to travel with a bunch of books, like how to fly with 50 bucks or what have you. And we also talk about like safety when you’re staying in a hotel by yourself and that sort of thing. Jeff: So what’s coming up for you next this year with the writing? We’ve got “The 5th Gender” out, what’s coming next? Gail: Next, I have the final book in my Custard Protocol series coming out, which is “Reticence.” And that’s book four of the Custard Protocol that comes out at the beginning of August. And that’s actually rounding out the series in the Parasol-verse for a little while, my steampunk universe. I’m not ruling out doing another series in that universe, but I think I’m gonna take a little break. And I’m on proposal for a new Young Adult series. So who knows? It’s traditional, so it could take forever, could suddenly happen. You never know. And then in October I have a special collector’s edition coming out from Subterranean Press called “Fan Service,” which is for my super fans, which has my 2 supernatural society novellas bundled together with an exclusive short story that’s a hardcover fit, super fancy addition that there’s only gonna be 526 of those printed. And so that’s my October release. It’s so pretty. They can be very pretty covers, Subterranean. Jeff: That’s cool. And what’s the best way for folks to keep up with you online so they can keep track of all this? Gail: Well, in addition to everything else, so in case anybody’s in any doubt, I kind of have no life. I just did…this is like what I…like, I listen to podcasts, I read, and I play online, and occasionally I write, you know, because that’s my job. So I am on all the things online. I genuinely like social media. I know. I know, it’s crazy, but you can pretty much find me on any platform that you like. If you google Gail Carriger and then the name of the platform, I will probably pop up. And I try to use the platform in the way that it’s best suited. So, you know, there are pretty pictures on Instagram and there are lots of pinned gorgeous dresses on Pinterest and historical dresses and crazy aliens. And then I also have a newsletter. The newsletter is definitely for super fans. So it’s very chatty and it’s full of like sneak peeks as to what I’m actually writing and not talking about online yet. And I do freebies and giveaways and stuff there. Jeff: We’re going to link to all that good stuff in the show notes, of course, so people can find it easily. Gail, thanks so much for hanging out. It has been so much fun. Gail: Oh, it’s been a real pleasure. I can’t say how delighted I am to be on and I can’t wait to listen to this from the other side.

The guys talk about having more books than shelf space and also their upcoming 24th anniversary. Will reviews An Easter Promise by A E Ryecart. Jeff reviews Play It Again by Aidan Wayne. Jeff interviews Hank Edwards and Deanna Wadsworth about their collaboration, Murder Most Lovely, the first in the Lacetown Murder Mysteries series. They talk about how they came up with the book, their process for co-writing and what’s still to come in the series. We also find out what’s coming up for each of them in 2019. Complete shownotes for episode 186 along with a transcript of the interview are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Here’s the text of this week’s book reviews: An Easter Promise by AE Ryecart. Reviewed by Will. This is the continuing story of Rory and Jack, who we first met in the holiday story, A Kiss Before Christmas. In that story, Jack finds the homeless Rory huddled on his doorstep and offers him a place to stay. As they learn more about one another, Jack asks Rory to pose as his fake boyfriend when he goes home for the holidays. An unexpectedly severe winter storm prevents them from that trip, but in the few days they’ve been together they’ve fallen in love. I read A Kiss Before Christmas last year, and I still highly recommend it. In An Easter Promise, it’s now Spring and our two heroes are finally making the trip to visit Jack’s family in his ancestral manor house in the countryside. This is a particularly nerve-wracking experience for Rory, whose childhood couldn’t have been more different than Jack’s well-heeled upbringing. Things go relatively well as Jack shows Rory around the expansive estate, but they then get frosty when Jack’s mom makes it clear that she believes that Rory is after her son’s money. Gold-digging accusations aside, as a favor to her, Rory steps in as a last-minute contestant in the Best Bake competition at the village festival. Though his brownies were obviously the best, he doesn’t win. Afterward, Jack announces that he and his culinarily gifted boyfriend are going into business together and are opening a bakery. This once again raises the suspicion that Rory is only after Jack for his money, causing a major rift in family relations. Jack tells his mom where she can stick her suspicions, and is ready to return to London, but when Rory takes the family dog for a walk, he gets lost on the moors in a sudden storm. If reading fiction set in the U.K. has taught me anything, it’s that going for a walk on the moors is always a bad idea. The family organizes a search party and journeys into the dark night to find Rory. He is eventually found, and Jack makes amends with his parents. Flash forward a few months to the opening of the bakery and the beginning of a new chapter for our romantic heroes. I really like both of the stories featuring Rory and Jack and sincerely hope that this isn’t the last that we’ll see of them. The opening of the bakery certainly presents several new story possibilities. A.E. Ryecart, if you’re reading this, I’m a fan and a series set in this world would be greatly appreciated. Play It Again by Aidan Wayne. Reviewed by Jeff. I was completely delighted by new-to-me author Aidan Wayne’s Play It Again. Part of what drew me in initially is that part of it relates to what we do here on the podcast. Dovid is a YouTuber alongside his sister Rachel. They run a channel called Don’t Look Now. Among the things they do is review eateries in Seattle for how accessible they are because Dovid is blind. They also interact with their fans, go on trips, open mystery boxes–it’s the full YouTube gambit. Over in Ireland, Sam runs a Let’s Play channel where he plays a popular videogame. Rachel and Dovid become obsessed with Sam’s channel because of his easy-going, fun delivery. Dovid calls out Sam’s channel in an episode and sends Sam’s subscriber count through the roof and when Sam contacts Dovid to thank him they end up talking frequently. Dovid and Sam are single–but as I mentioned live on opposite sides of the globe. Neither of them, quite cutely, realizes how flirty they’re being as they message each other. Initially Dovid offers Sam advice on how to manage his new subscribers and ways to grow his channel but as they move beyond that and get to know each other the realization comes that perhaps there’s more there. This isn’t the first book I’ve read that relies heavily on text messages, instant messenger, email and so on. I loved how these wove into the story. There’s a good deal of, what I’ll call, regular storytelling too, coming from both points of view. Dovid and Sam have quite a lot internal dialogue about their growing predicament. Just getting time to talk on the phone is a challenge with the nine hour difference between them. It doesn’t stop them though from being ridiculously cute and challenging themselves to let this relationship go through its formative stages without being in the same physical location. Of course, the guys have to get together and that happens when Dovid and Rachel had the chance to do a European tour, which includes Ireland. As much as Dovid and Sam questioned themselves as they did the long distance thing, the jitters ratchet up as they meet. Aidan does a great job of showing the hesitancy–from Dovid wanting everything to be perfect to Sam wondering if he’s worthy of Dovid. Sam comes from a family where he was put down a lot and Dovid goes into protector mode when Sam talks about this, which is incredibly touching and sexy. For all the exploration they did via email, the time they spend together in Ireland really made me appreciate the romance that Aidan spun even more. They’d bonded so much before, they almost fall into old married couple mode with how they try to take care of each other. Dovid is particularly mindful of Sam’s asexuality and makes sure Sam isn’t doing anything he doesn’t want to do. It’s wonderful to see two such diverse characters finding their happy. Speaking if the HEA, I’d wondered how it would manifest in a book where the two characters spend probably eighty percent of the book on separate continents. I adored how Aidan brought Sam and Dovid together. I would love to see more in this universe to know how Dovid and Sam are getting on. Besides the wonderful romance, I loved the attention to detail that Aidan put into showing the work Dovid and Rachel do on their channel. From the talk of creating Patreon campaigns to managing social media and how to interact with the audience, I enjoyed it and I don’t think it’s too much for people who don’t do this kind of thing. Another excellent detail, Dovid and Rachel receive a package from a fan in Michigan–it contained Faygo Red Pop and Mackinac Island fudge, two childhood favorites that made me smile and gave me cravings! So, in case you haven’t figured it out, I totally recommend Play it Again by Aidan Wayne. I’m also looking forward to their upcoming book, Hitting the Mark, which comes out at the end of May. This interview transcript is sponsored by Dreamspinner PressDreamspinner Press is proud to publish this week’s guests Hank Edwards and Deanna Wadsworth and their new book Murder Most Lovely. Check it out, and all the new mystery and suspense titles from your favorite authors like Amy Lane, KC Wells, Tara Lain, and Rhys Ford, just to name a few, and find a new favorite author while you’re at it. Go to dreamspinnerpress.com for everything you want in gay romance. Jeff: Welcome to the podcast, Hank Edwards and Deanna Wadsworth. Deanna: Hello. Jeff: Thanks for being here. Hank: Thanks for hosting us. Jeff: You guys have written a book together… Deanna: We did. Jeff: …which is super cool. April 30, which is the day after this comes out, you’re releasing the first book in the “Lacetown Murder Mysteries” called “Murder Most Lovely.” Tell us about this new series. What is the scoop? Deanna: Who wants to go first? Hank: Deanna? You go first. Deanna: Okay, I’ll go first. So like a year ago I went out to dinner with my husband, had some cocktails and at like 11:00 at night after having like wonderful conversations in my brain with myself because I think I’m clever, I messaged Hank, and I said, “Dude, we need to write a book together.” And he’s like, “We should.” And then we did. Hank: I might have had some cocktails that night too. I can’t remember. Deanna: You may have. Hank: Might have. Deanna: And it was, “Yeah, we should,” kind of moment. And we didn’t really know where it was going. Hank: We had no idea. Deanna: What’s that? Hank: We had no idea, like nothing. That was just the random start of things. “We should do a book.” We didn’t have an idea or anything. Deanna: It was a completely inane, “Dude, we should write a book together,” kind of moment. And then seriously, the next day, we had some conversations like, “What should it be? Superhero?” And then we just kind of like spitted ideas back and forth. And Hank was like, “We would write the fuck out of a rom-com.” Am I allowed to say fuck? Jeff: Yes, you are. We’ll put a little explicit logo on the episode and you can cuss as much as you want. Deanna: So he was like, “We would write the fuck out of a rom-com.” And I’m like, “We would.” And then we’re like, “What should it be?” And we just spitballed ideas back and forth. Like, I mean, literally, like there was probably like 30 or 40, like, things we shot back and forth at each other. And then Hank picked on two of them. And he’s like, “I love the idea of a mortician and a hairdresser.” Then we ran with it. Hank: Yeah, and we just ran with it. And it just started writing. I mean, we didn’t plan, like, “You take one chapter.” What we did was each of us wrote up a character bio and sent it to each other. And so I wrote up… Deanna: It was so great. Hank: You what? Deanna: It was so great, like blind dates for our character. Hank: It was. It was really fun. So you had Michael, right, and I had Jazz. Deanna: Yeah, you made Jazz. So tell us about Jazz. Hank: So Jazz is very sassy and very snarky. And he’s a talented hairstylist and he’s uprooted his life after separating from his husband, who is a best-selling novelist and mystery novelist. And so he’s moved to this small town on the coast of Lake Michigan in Michigan. And some Michigan love there, Jeff. Yes. Jeff: I love that. Hank: Yes, always. And so he’s starting over and he’s just trying to kind of like rebuild and he works at a fun little salon but he’s kind of, he’s 49 but he tells people he’s 41 and… Deanna: He tell’s people he’s 35, remember? Hank: And he tries that too. Deanna: He totally lies about his age. He says he’s 35. Hank: We had, our editor actually called us up and she was like, “Is this right?” Because he shouldn’t have been around back then. Jazz lies about his age. Deanna: He’s almost 50 but he says he’s 35. Hank: Right. So that’s how that started. And then she brought up Michael. Deanna: Yeah. Hank created Jazz, the hairdresser, which is funny because I actually legitimately am a hairdresser in real life. But when we were talking, Hank had said, “I’ve always wanted to write a hairdresser.” I’m like, “You take the hairdresser. Run with it.” And then I took the mortician, which sounded really great and exciting. And after dozens of Google search, Google decided that I obviously want to be a coroner and mortician and they send me casket ads, but yeah, whatever. So I created a…it was fun because Hank created Jazz, this sassy, almost-50 hairdresser who’s super sarcastic, he’s got long honey blonde hair and super stylish and wears eyeliner and he’s really sassy and he has a big potty mouth. Hank: Oh, yeah. Deanna: Oh, he does. And then I didn’t know who Hank was creating when we came upon this conversation. It was very much, “Hey, you pick your guy. I’ll pick my guy. We’ll see what happens. And I made Michael Fleishman who is a 42-year-old, very uptight, very socially awkward Jewish guy who runs the local funeral home and he’s also the county coroner to our fake county…is it Carver County? Hank: Carver County, yeah. Deanna: Carver County on Lake Michigan, which is sort of like in somewhere between, I don’t know… Hank: Like Saugatuck and… Deanna: Saugatuck and… Hank: Yeah, Muskegon. Deanna: Muskegon, somewhere, a fake county in between there and he’s the county coroner. He’s very uptight and super horny and has this like hilarious like sexual imagination but he’s really reserved and he is obsessed with mystery novels. And he goes to a bookstore in Lacetown, which is our fictional town on Lake Michigan, during a literary festival to meet his favorite also author, Russell Withingham, which happens to be Jazz’s husband. They’re separated but they’re not divorced yet. Hank: And that’s the meet-cute. Jeff: Wow. Hank: I know, right? Deanna: Total rom-com, meet and greet during the rain under an umbrella, cute scene. Until Jazz gets his little…I mean, he really worries Michael thinks he’s a bitchy queen and he kind of is. He’s totally the queen. Hank: He’s really fun to write. Deanna: It’s so fun. Jeff: So when you got these characters who are obviously really opposite to each other, you could just hear it in the bios, what was it like to mash them together? Hank: Oh, man. Jeff: Sparks had to have flown off the pages. Hank: Oh, yes, right away. It was really fun. The first chapter is their meet-cute. And we had…I mean, we do a lot of like editing, right? So we’ll write the first pass and we’ll talk about it. We message a lot during the day and stuff like that, talk about where we want to go with things. And then we use Google Docs to write together. Yeah, so that was a lot of fun to just see the whole creation of it and like set up that setting and understand how they were going to meet and how that was going to go and how Michael would be so taken with Jazz at first sight. It was really fun. Deanna: Totally. Like, “Oh, you’re so handsome. Why is he talking to me?” Hank: That’s really fun. Jeff: And of course you’ve got the mystery element in this too. So rom-com mystery, which trying to think, I haven’t necessarily seen that kind of combo a lot because there’s straight up romantic suspense, of course. And then there’s like cozy mystery and maybe this ekes a little towards that with the rom-com–iness. But did you know that this was going to be like something to go for? Or did you just like mash these two elements together and say, “This thing…” Deanna: We thought about doing like a film noir concept, like a 1940s film. But see, that’s the thing. Like when Hank and I started writing, we didn’t have a direction. We were very much open to anything. And it was sort of like he created Jazz, I created Michael. We knew we wanted a murder. We knew we wanted it to be like… Hank: We wanted a murder. The murder got pretty gruesome too. I was really shocked. Deanna: Yeah, we wanted some things but then as we began to write it, it began to have elements of a real murder. So like our sheriff is blustering and funny. And Michael has his kitty cat, the little Mr. Pickles. Hank: Mr. Pickles. Deanna: Mr. Pickles, the fat, black-and-white kitty, which my dog is growling at right now. Jeff: Which we should note, for the people who may not be watching the video, Deanna just held up this stuffed kitty. And you’re going to be giving these away at GRL in a few months. Deanna: Yes, we have a few couple. So like when we created the story, I guess maybe other people with their writing collaborations might be different than we were. But Hank and I were not in a competition with each other. We were not like…we just knew we were going to have fun because we like each other and we know each other personally. And we were just like, “Let’s have fun with this.” And there was no like obsessive competition with like, “I don’t like the storyline.” Or, “I like this.” It was just sort of like, “What do you want to do? Okay, that sounds fun.” And we both ran with it. And we ended up developing this city on Lake Michigan and this little town and these little side characters. Jeff: Let’s talk about the mystery side of it. Who is dead? Deanna: Oh, yes, the mystery side of it. That’s right. So I’ll talk and then I’ll let Hank talk because I’ve been blabbering too long. So we decided we wanted it to be, like, film noir idea. And then it became like a legitimate murder mystery where there is a dead body and it’s gruesome and it’s creepy and it’s sad. And there’s like some crazy shit happening. And there’s like cops that need to come in. And there’s like a real mystery. And there’s actually a couple side mysteries that are happening over the book arc of the next two novels, novel two of which we will be submitting in the morning. We would have submitted it today but I’m being a typo psycho. I am. I’m a typo psycho. Hank: She’s finding a lot of good stuff, though. I like the changes. So, yeah. So the murder actually got more gruesome than I was anticipating. We were like, “Let’s go.” “Wait, do we want to go?” “Yeah, let’s do it. Let’s do it.” So it’s…do we want to say who it is? I mean, it happens early on. So I don’t think it’s a spoiler, right? Deanna: Oh, I don’t know. Why don’t we just talk about how creepy the murder is. Hank: Okay, we’ll just leave it just like that. Deanna: Not who is murdered. Hank: Someone’s murdered and maybe their hands are missing. Deanna: Or chopped off. Jeff: Oh, wow. Hank: So, yeah, that’s kind of… Jeff: That’s more gruesome than I expect in a rom-com. Hank: I know. Jeff: I’ll say that. Deanna: Oh, wait ’till you hear about the serial killer. Wait, that was a spoiler. I didn’t say it. Hank: But in the first book… Jeff: Is that a spoiler that we’re leaving in or a spoiler that we’re taking out? Deanna: We’re leaving it in but we’re not gonna respond about it. Jeff: Fair enough. Hank: That’s right. Jeff: A little breaking news there for the podcast that we will not do follow-up questions on. You were saying, Hank, on this murder. Hank: So yeah, so it was gruesome. And then there’s the discovery. But Michael is kind of, you know, he can’t help but be a little excited about it because it’s his first murder because he’s a small town, county coroner. And the only… Deanna: He’s not only a mortician. He’s the county coroner too. Hank: Right. So it’s up to him now to, like, investigate it. He’s never had a murder like this. He’s had a murder but they knew the victim and the attacker. So this is completely new for him. And he reads murder like mystery novels, so he’s really excited about it. So he’s, like, starting to play, like, detective. And then the sheriff is kind of, you know, like all blustering and yelling at him like, “Fleishman. Dilworth.” You know, that’s Jazz’s last name, Jazz Dilworth and he like calls everybody their last name and yells at them. And they’re always a suspect, so, “Don’t leave town.” Deanna: Everyone is a suspect until Musgrave says they’re not a suspect. Hank: “Don’t leave town.” Yeah. Sheriff Musgrave. Jeff: So if I understood correctly, you kind of just created this on the fly. Hank: Yep. Deanna: Totally. Jeff: For both the romance and the mystery? Deanna: Totally. Jeff: How did that play out in like the day-to-day writing? Because I can’t even like imagine having co-written something that there wasn’t more of a plan to it. Hank [softly]: I know! Deanna: How did it go? Hank: Actually it went smoother than I expected. Deanna: It was so much fun. Hank: Yeah. And it was a lot of fun because we chatted a lot on Facebook Messenger. And we’d text and we call each other now and then. We’d have conversations, phone conversations, and we’d plan out where we wanted things to go. And then one of us would say, “Okay, I’ll do this and then you can write that.” And then we just kind of took it. And then it was really fun because like you’d go through and you’d read…you know, how you like read through what you’ve written and it’s somebody else has written something new and you’re like, “Wow, this is like a whole new story.” Like you don’t know what you’re reading, you don’t know anything of what to expect. So it was really fun. Deanna: So awesome because, like, first, I gotta say, writing with Hank Edwards has been a pleasure. Because not only is he a great writer and like stupid funny, like so funny, I can’t even tell you how many times he writes something and I’m just like…laughing. But he and I are not…we’re not competitive individuals. We’re not like jumping into this, like, “Well, this is what I want. This is what I want.” It was so easy, where it was just like we just…Hank created Jazz and then Jazz has this profile that we went with. I created Michael and we had this profile we went with. He and I created an exterior mystery that happened to them. But because he created such a good profile and I just created such a strong profile, both of us knew who Michael and who Jazz were. And then it was like, “Well, Michael wouldn’t do that,” or, “Jazz wouldn’t say that.” And we didn’t like try to, like, undermine the other person. I don’t know. I just feel really blessed. I love you. I just feel blessed to be able to write a story with someone who is so easy and so fun and our sense of humor is both very similar and darkly twisted and inappropriate, like we both knew when our editor was gonna go, “Mm-mm. No.” Hank: I told her several times, I’m like, “This is gonna get cut out and you put it in and it’s gonna get cut out. I’m telling you right now.” And she’s like, “I want to leave it in.” I’m like, “Okay, but it’s gonna get cut.” And it did. Deanna: And I’m like, “They’re not gonna let us use the C-word.” And he’s like, “Maybe they will.” No, they didn’t. But it was so much…I don’t know. It was just one of those things that were really easy because Hank is so fun to work with. It was just easy. I mean, not that writing and editing is easy. But even as we went through the process, there would be scenes…we each knew where the scene was going to go. We knew what scene was going to happen next. And if it was…because our work…he’s very typical 9:00 to 5:00 work schedule, Monday through Friday, and I am Wednesday through Saturday, noon to 8:00, those four days. So like he would do all the stuff Wednesday through Saturday and then I’d open it up on Sunday, and then I’d do all the stuff Sunday to Tuesday. And then it wasn’t like we were fixing or changing each other’s work. It was like, “Oh, that’s a great scene.” And then I would add to it. And then he would take my scene and add to it. And it was just like layering and layering cool stuff with what was already funny. So it was like I knew what I was writing on Tuesday. I wrote this whole scene. And then Hank would write the next scene. And when I would get a chance to read on Thursday, he was like, “Oh, what am I going to read? I know what’s gonna happen but how is it gonna happen?” And he is so funny. So funny. And, I mean, it was just so great writing together. Jeff: So, Hank, for you, what’s kind of your side of that story as you’re like going through and doing your part on the book on your days? Hank: So it was a lot of fun. Like Deanna said, because I’ve been writing during my lunch hours at work, so like Monday through Friday I’d have like an hour and I usually go and I hide somewhere at the building and I’ll, like, be able to focus and write. And it was really fun to go through Google Docs and be able to accept all those changes because we always do the suggestions, right, so like the track changes so we can see what each other has done. And it’s always so much fun to see. It looks like, you know, like Deanna said, it’s like, “Oh,” it’s like a little present. You know, like, “There’s something new.” And I go through. But then seeing how she did the layering, I was talking to my husband, Fred, and I was like, you know, it’s like I’m picking up such good ideas about how to layer emotion in. Deanna is awesome at doing that and like pulling out the emotions in a scene and like digging in deeper where it needs to be. You know, that’s something that I’ve always kind of like, you know, I’m always like, “Write the action. Write the action. Write the action.” Deanna: But that’s what I love about his writing because he will write action that conveys emotion, whereas I would have written a long, drawn-out emotional monologue. And somehow the two just worked so great. I think. Hank: We are a good blend together like that. So, yeah, it’s really funny and she’s funny and really darkly funny. So it’s been a lot of fun because there’s some stuff where I like write something dark and funny and then, you know, you get the comment. It’s always fun to get that comment like, “LOL. Oh, my God.” And so then like all of a sudden like further down the page, she’s added somebody I’m like, “Oh, my God, you did not just write that.” So it’s really funny. Deanna: We’re so wrong. We’re so wrong, we’re so right, Hank. Hank: Yes. Jeff: Well, I really like the organic method it sounds like you guys had. Because like my brain can’t even begin to process trying to co-write without a plan. But I’ve heard other people do that and it works out great. What, as you got the draft done, what was the revision and also, I guess, making the book seem like it had one voice? What was that like? So was it like two different people at work? Deanna: Can I respond to this? Hank: Of course. Deanna: Okay, so, Hank would send me…well, it was in Google Docs. So we would get scenes together. So I feel like the way it went before anyone else read anything or we got any feedback from editors, from beta readers, or whatever, it was like we had our strong characters decided who they were and what they were and what the mystery was. And he would write a scene and then I would get it and I’m like, “Oh, it’s a good scene. I love where it’s going. Maybe…” Okay, so like I’m not going to give a spoiler, but there’s a scene at the end of Book 1 where the murderer is caught and our two heroes are like in this epic battle fighting them, like the murderer, right? Okay. So Hank writes that scene and I’m like, “Ah,” and then I go in and I add some fighting, some struggling, and maybe a little dialogue. Hank comes back in, he adds a little more dialogue. He remembers that the gun is on the other side of the room. Whatever the detail is, we both keep adding layers. And I think it comes back to the point that we’re both so invested in our characters and we weren’t, like, competing to try to be the better person. And I think that’s a lot of it. I mean, I think you can’t co-write a book together if you’re competitive or need center of attention. Hank and I just had so much fun. It would be like, “Oh, yeah. Add that, add that.” And he’s just like “Oh, my God. We’re great. That’s great. You shot him. Oh, I didn’t expect to shoot him. Let’s do that.” Whatever it was and we kept adding these layers and it became so much fun. But in the end, when we would get a scene and it was completed, we would…each of us would go back and read through the whole manuscript and be like, “Oh, we missed that detail.” And Hank would send that to me. And I’d be like, “Oh, yeah, that’s right. I forgot about that.” And he would add it. Or I would like, even today, we’re actually like one day off submitting Book 2. We were going to submit it today but I am like typo crazy. So I sent the manuscript to my Kindle so I could find any misspellings and typos. And I was like, “Oh, my God. We have a scene where Michael and Jazz are sitting in Michael’s living room with the TV. And in Book 1, he only has a TV in his bedroom. What are we going to do?” And Hank is like, “That’s cool. Good for catching that.” And I feel like that’s kind of how we’ve been like we’ll catch something and go. “Oh, I’m glad you caught that.” Hank: Yeah. But to your point, Jeff, you said like about planning and writing off the cuff, so the first book, I think, Deanna, you can tell me if I’m wrong. But the first book was really, I mean, it wasn’t easy because writing is hard but it was easier. Book 2, it was more of a struggle I think with writing it. Deanna: Book 2 was more of a struggle. Hank: And we had a lot going on. So we have like an overarching mystery, we have another, like, contained mystery. Deanna: Yes. Hank: So we’ve talked about it and we’re like Book 3, we really need to plan it out more. We’re gonna… Like once we let this book to get out a little bit, we’re going to like start planning Book 3 and then really like… Deanna: We need a serious luncheon with some planning. Hank: Yeah, so, absolutely. Deanna: Book 1 was very organic and natural. And Book 2, I mean, you’ll probably agree, Hank, I think we fell in love with our side characters so much we got distracted with all these sides stories. Even our editor was like, “Why are you talking about that and that?” We’re like… Hank: “Because we like them.” Deanna: So we had to cut a lot of scenes and really focus back on the romance, on book 2. Jeff: DVD extras, deleted scenes. Hank: DVD extras, exactly. Jeff: But let’s talk about those side characters a little bit because there’s a whole paragraph of the blurb for Book 1 that details the side characters. Michael’s sassy assistant, Kitty, the grumpy Sheriff Musgrave, Russell’s creepy PR rep, Norbert, Michael’s grandfather who likes his Manhattans strong and his women saucy. And of course, who we’ve already met, Mr. Pickles Furryton the Third. Hank: Yes. Mm-hmm. Jeff: So did you guys split those up in the same way that you took Jazz, Hank, and Deanna took Michael? Or did these get created on the fly as you needed them? Deanna: They were on the fly. Hank: Yeah. Deanna: We just like… Hank: We just do, kind of. Yeah. Deanna: I think I came up with Mr. Pickles Furryton the Third and Hank created Sheriff Musgrave. Because I think when we were talking, Sheriff Musgrave was actually like an old man and Hank made him this whole, like, Ron Perlman kind of character. Hank: Yes. Very Ron Perlman. Deanna: He has a lot of attitude. And Kitty, I don’t know where she came from. Hank: You created Kitty. Deanna: Did I? Okay, because I imagine her. Do you watch “Blue Blood” with Tom Selleck? Jeff: I have not. Deanna: Oh, anyways. His secretary is this voluptuous like blonde chick and I pictured her. And I don’t know who created Grandpa. Hank: I think we both did. Deanna: You had Steve. Hank: Oh, yeah, the handyman. Deanna: We both made Ezra. Hank: The apprentice. Deanna: I don’t know anything about them. That’s not a spoiler at all. Jeff: That’s very impressive to just kind of create on the fly like that. Two people pantsing would make my head explode, but. Hank: It was insane. I don’t know how we managed to do it but… Jeff: I think you had fun with it all the more. Hank: …we had really good feedback from the editor. Deanna: We did have so much fun, Jeff. Hank: Yeah. Deanna: I don’t know how lucky I am. Like a year ago, I sent him a drunk text message that we should write a book together. And we have had the best year. Jeff: Had it even crossed your minds before the drunk text to do this in some, like, other random moment? Deanna: No. Hank: Never ever really even talked about it? I mean, we see each other GRL. She comes up for Ferndale Pride because she lives about an hour and a half away from me. Deanna: I’m northwest Ohio, he’s southwest Michigan, so we’ve done some pride festivals together. But in all freaking honesty, the whiskey made me do it, Jeff. I literally texted him, “Hey, full disclosure, I’ve been drinking. We should write a book together.” I do believe, Hank, that was the quote. Hank: Pretty much. Yeah. Deanna: And he was like, “We would write the fuck out of a rom-com.” And I was like, “We would.” And then we ran with it. And then that’s that. It was just, like, all fun. Jeff: And it’s interesting that you’re evolving in Book 2 and probably in Book 3 too. You had the fun moment. Now you kind of have to make everything keep tying together in the next two books. Hank: Yes. It’s all got to come together now for the third book. Yeah. Jeff: Because that’s like, yeah, when you have all that tied together stuff, because I’ve been reading a lot of romantic suspense lately where it’s like something that arcs across a trilogy or whatever, and it’s like…it’s exciting. Hank: Right. Deanna: Yeah. Book 2 is tentatively called “Murder Most Deserving,” and it was a lot harder to write than the first book. Hank: Yeah. Jeff: As fun though, I hope? Hank: Oh, yeah. Deanna: Oh yeah, just as fun, but there were moments I feel like we both checked out. And we’ve had this conversation. We know that we checked out because we had decided on a storyline for Michael and Jazz. And then we were like, “This doesn’t feel right.” Because it’s not your book, it also belongs to someone else, you don’t just say, “Oh, that storyline can’t happen,” because two of you decided together so you keep going with it. And then there’s moments where we had to talk and we’re like…where I was like, “I don’t like this.” And he’s like, “Yeah, I don’t like it either.” And I thought I said I didn’t like it. I’m like, “Maybe you said you didn’t like it. But I didn’t really expect you didn’t like it and I don’t know why we didn’t like it. And I don’t even know why we’re doing it.” And it was like we had…I mean, there was like, there was a couple of moments like that on the story. And there was also like we said in the beginning, we love our side characters too much. And we gave them a lot of screen time they did not deserve, even though we love them. So we had to distract and take a lot of stuff out. Not that we wanted to take it out but it was like why is this thing here? No one cares… Hank: Right. Deanna: …except us. So it was a little different. Like we created this wonderful world and in Book 2 we kind of just went crazy. We, like, went crazy with the Cheez Whiz. It’s like, “I love Sheriff Musgrave. I love Missy.” And we just wrote all these scenes and we’re like… And part of that I will say is my fault because I sent a lot of scenes to Hank before we even plotted the book. I was like, “I wrote this funny scene I’m going to send you.” And he’s like, “I love it.” And we wrote it. Hank: And I was like opening emails from Oprah. “And you get a storyline, and you get a storyline.” Deanna: Totally. Jeff: Maybe these could become short stories for these characters if you can’t get them into the book. Hank: That’s great. Jeff: So take a moment to brag on each other. And outside of working on this book, what do you like about each other’s work? Hank: I’ll go. Jeff: Hank first. Hank: All right. I love Deanna’s depth of characters. So her books, I think the first one I read of yours was “The Legend of Sleepy Hollow.” And I was like, “Oh, Ichabod. Oh, you naughty boy.” But then I can’t remember in what order then I read them but like “Easy Ryder,” I love that book. That is an awesome book. And I love the time period and I love the characters and I just love all of it and the discovery. That’s a road trip, another…you love the road trip books. Deanna: Apparently. Hank: Apparently. And then “Wrecked” is awesome. It’s really good. But she has a way of just like, you know, pulling up those emotions and really getting into the romance of it and doing an awesome job with it and having the characters. And then the conflict is organic, it’s not, like, fabricated. And it all blends together. She’s got a really good sense of story. Jeff: Nice. Deanna: That’s so sweet. I feel like, Hank, your dialogue sells your story. You could write a whole book on just dialogue with nothing else and people would buy it and laugh. You’re hilarious and your dialogue is great. And I feel like our styles mesh well because I do write more… I like to write a lot of the internal monologue and the emotion. But I’ll tell you an example, and this is a semi-spoiler in Book 2. But this is what I love about Hank’s writing. Okay. I’m not gonna tell too much of the story but there is a scene where something really shocking happens for our character, Jazz, the hairdresser. And the scene is in Jazz’s point of view. You’ll know what I’m talking about in a second. So the scene is in Jazz’s point of view and then Michael, our mortician, bursts through the door. And everyone is like, “How did you get here?” And he’s like, “I ran here.” And that sounds like simplistic but the emotional intensity of why Michael would run five blocks to the salon where Jazz works on a mere phone call just conveys so much intensity with three words, “I ran here.” And that’s what I love about Hank’s writing. I mean, I write the long emotional, internal monologue. And Hank writes that same intense emotional monologue in three words, “I ran here.” And I think, I mean, I’ve always…that’s what I love about his books. But I feel like those two things complement each other in our writing. Like I like to write the long drawn out emotional and he writes that same scene in three words, “I ran here.” And that’s why I love writing with him. Jeff: Cool. They’re hearting each other for those people not watching the video right now. Jeff: So you mentioned three towns…three towns, no, three books in the “Lacetown” series are planned. Do you foresee life in the universe beyond those three since you’re having such a good time? Deanna: Yeah. Hank: We talked about it. We’ve discussed it, yeah. We’ve got the trilogy planned and then we’ll see what happens with it. Deanna: We have at least two in our head. Jeff: That’s cool. Deanna: Beyond the three. Jeff: Now what about separately? What’s coming up next outside of the “Lacetown” series for you both? Hank: You have something coming up soon, Deanna. Deanna: Well, I have one thing coming up for sure and hopefully two. I also write young adult fiction just like Hank does under his…is it RG or RD? Hank: R.G. Deanna: R.G. Thomas. Hank has a young adult series under RG Thomas. And I have a young adult series, K.D. Worth, which is very different from my Deanna Wadsworth writing. It’s young adults/new adults because my characters are 19 and there are some, I don’t know, level-three sexy moments. So you can’t really…like you know people get funny about young adult that has sexy stuff in it. There’s a strong spiritual element with the main character who was trying to kill himself because of his family sending him to like one of those creepy pray-the-gay away camps. And the moment he kills himself he’s saved by a young teenage Grim Reaper, who decides that he wants to give him a second chance in life. And there’s a sassy foul-mouthed, because no one understands why Deanna would write a character like that, a sassy foul-mouthed angel who helps these boys on their journey. And that story is called “The Grim Life.” And Book 3, the final series, the final saga in that trilogy “The Lost Souls” is coming out this fall. And I’m really, really excited about that. I mean, a lot of M/M or gay romance, whatever you want to call it, authors know that young adult isn’t where the sales and money are at, sadly, but this is like a really intense…I don’t want to say pet project because that trivializes it, but it’s really a series that means more to me than almost anything I’ve ever written. Hank: Yeah. You’ve been working on these for what? Like two years now? Deanna: Yeah, four. It took me two years to write Book 3 because I just emotionally invested in it. There’s a lot of death and questioning of what goes on on the other side and where God sees your soul and all these like intensely hard questions. And to make things harder on myself, I put a school shooting in Book 3 because why not? Hank: No, why? Deanna: It’s so emotionally intense that you can’t write it. So that comes out this fall. But I’m hoping my second book in my Pride of the Caribbean Cruise series comes out which is a merman. Hank: Nice. Deanna: A merman… Hank: On a cruise. Deanna: …on a Caribbean cruise. It’s like I like to be intense or I like to be funny. I can’t be… Hank: There’s no in between, right. Jeff: Either end of the spectrum. Hank: That’s right. Deanna: That’s what I do. So that’s what’s coming out for me. Jeff: Cool. Hank: I will be working on the final book of the “Critter Catcher” series, final book for now. It’s tentatively titled “Dread of Night.” So and I’ve got about six chapters written. I’m working on a big pivotal scene also, so I need to just like…now that Book 2 has been sent off for consideration I can like, you know, kind of focus on that because I’m really bad at like jumping between projects too. Like my mind gets stuck in the other characters because while I’m working on this other I’m like, “But wait, what about…?” So, yeah. Jeff: Cool. All right. What is the… Hank: There’s other stuff to work on too but that’s the big thing coming up. Deanna: I love the “Critter Catcher” books. They’re so good. I manipulated Hank into giving me the last book when I was sick last summer. I was like, “Shouldn’t you send it to me? I know that you’re going to submit it for publishing in a month, but I’m really sick.” Hank: “I need to beta it. I’m sick.” Yeah. Deanna: Yes. I did do that. Jeff: And it worked too, right? Deanna: It worked. Hank: I did. I sent it. I was good. Deanna: And it was worth it. Jeff: So what’s the best way for readers to keep up with you guys online? Let’s start with Hank. Hank: I have a website. It’s hankedwardsbooks.com. You can also find my young adult fiction at townofsuperstition.com. And I do have those books listed on my Hank Edwards’ website just to make it easier. And then I’m on Facebook. I have a Facebook page. It’s facebook.com/hankedwardsbooks. And I really don’t use…Twitter confuses me. I get really…it’s just this noise. It’s like people yelling at each other. And so I have a Twitter account but I’m not out there much. But I am on Instagram. I usually post pictures of my cats. You know, and that’s @hankedwardsbooks as well. Jeff: Cool. And Deanna? Deanna: I’m on Facebook, deannawadsworthauthor. And Instagram, I go by @deannawads. I don’t know why I didn’t finish my last name but I don’t know. Everybody called my grandpa Wadsy. So I should have done Deanna Wadsy but I screwed that up. But I’m on those two. A little on Twitter and a little on Pinterest, all under Deanna Wadsworth. Mostly my most activity is on Instagram or my website, deannawadsworth.com. And that’s it. And you should totally read Hank’s R.G. Thomas books. It’s like Harry Potter but gay with, like, dragons. And little garden gnomes. I fricking love those books. You better write another one after we write our book. After we write our book. You’ve got to. Hank: Got it. Jeff: You’ve got your marching orders now, Hank. Hank: I do. I get them a lot. Deanna: He doesn’t have a wife, but… Hank: It’s all right. Deanna: …I’ll jump in that role. Hank: She’s my work wife. Jeff: All right. Well, this has been a blast. We will definitely link up to everything in the show notes that we’ve talked about here. And we wish you the best of success on the “Lacetown Murder Mysteries.” Hank: Thanks very much, Jeff. It’s been fun. Deanna: Thank you, Jeff.

New movie and TV deals are discussed with both Casey McQuiston’s Red, White & Royal Blue coming to Amazon and a Love, Simon series to the Disney+ streaming service. Jeff talks about seeing The Lightning Thief: The Percy Jackson Musical. New patrons Rhonda and Regi are welcomed. Will reviews the Netflix original Special. Jeff reviews Jay Bell’s Straight Boy. Jeff & Will discuss their trip to the LA Times Festival of Books. They also share the interviews they did at the festival with Julian Winters, Kim Fielding & Venona Keyes and S.A. Stovall. Julian talks about his upcoming book How to Be Remy Cameron. Kim discusses her Stars in Peril series and Venona also tells Jeff about her co-writing with Kim. S.A. gives the origin story of her Vice City series and how she uses caricature to encourage people to read the first chapter (she also did a super cute caricature of Jeff & Will). Complete shownotes for episode 185 are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Here’s the text of this week’s book review: Straight Boy by Jay Bell, narrated by Kirt Graves. Reviewed by Jeff. I went into Straight Boy without knowing much about it other than it was a young adult story involving Andrew, a gay high school student, who develops a crush on Carter, a straight (or maybe not-so-straight) boy. What made me buy the audiobook was the fact I’m a huge Jay Bell fan because of Something Like Summer and also for Kirt Graves’s narration. I knew these two together would give me a great read. And they did. With Something Like Summer and its sequels, Jay proved a master of telling a story with many characters and many plot lines that involve an array of emotions. He’s upped his game with Straight Boy. Two things happen right away–Andrew, a recent transplant to Chicago, discovers a boy who lives down the street having an argument with his parents and saying things like “I was born this way.” Andrew thinks he’s found a gay friend. The next day–his first day at his new school–Andrew comes out as he introduces himself in class. This makes him a target of the school bully, Bobby. Andrew goes off on Bobby, despite the bully’s threats and ends up getting sent to the guidance office. Here he meets Carter and discovers that’s the boy he heard arguing. Both of them end up in a special program at the school where learning happens outside a traditional classroom Andrew’s year is now set. Everyone–gay, straight or otherwise–inevitably has that phase where you want a romantic relationship that you can’t have. Andrew longs for Carter but also doesn’t want to wreck their friendship, which seems to grow stronger by the minute. The thing is, Carter seems to be a little experimental too and that only makes things more confusing for them both. In the hands of a lesser writer, this would end up a disaster on the page, but Jay deftly weaves the emotions and circumstances for both guys as they figure out the place they’ve got in each other’s lives as it evolves through the school year. I cheered for the good and wanted to protect them through the bad since my fifty-year-old self could vividly recall how confusing seventeen was. Bobby’s integrated deeply into their year too. He’s a friend of Carter’s and that mean’s Andrew is around Bobby far more than he likes–and he ends up putting up with more crap that he should. Andrew accepts dealing with that because he doesn’t want to lose Carter. It’s made even harder when Carter starts dating Bobby’s ex, Olivia. Along the way another of Bobby’s friends, Jackson, becomes tight with Andrew too, creating more bonds in the group. The evolution of Andrew and Jackson’s friendship is as interesting as Andrew and Carter’s. Things get rough in the last quarter of the book. Bobby doesn’t like the changes happening to his group and he plots revenge. I have to warn here that not only does bullying happen throughout the story at varying levels but as we get into the last act there’s also off-page sexual assault and a pretty epic final battle where Andrew, Carter and the group are in way over their heads. Again, Jay does an excellent job of telling the story, ratcheting tensions and putting characters–and readers–through the wringer. The epilogue was the icing on top of this cake. Jumping twenty years into the future, we find out where everyone ended up. There were some surprises here that made me go “awwww.” It provided the perfect ending. What this book excelled at was showing friendships up close–what makes them grow, what rips them apart, and most importantly, what can make a true friend for life. It also shows, perhaps too intensely for some readers, the lengths people can go to in order to protect a relationship even if it’s toxic. I can’t commend Jay enough for how well he did all of this. Kudos to Kirt Graves too. I know well from TJ Klune’s Green Creek series that Kirt can handle a large cast of characters and high emotional impact. Kirt is perfection here handling the emotional rollercoaster without sending it over the top. His performance adds perfectly to what Jay had on the page. I highly recommend Straight Boy by Jay Bell, just make sure you’re ready for the ride. Interview Transcript - Julian Winters, Kim Fielding & Venona Keyes, S.A. Stovall This transcript was made possible by our community on Patreon. You can get information on how to join them at patreon.com/biggayfictionpodcast. Interview with Julian Winters Jeff: We are at the LA Times Festival of Books with Julian Winters. Julian: Hi. Jeff: Who I’ve just had a major fanboy moment over. Julian: I had fanboy moments. Jeff: Okay. We kinda both had the fanboy moment. Julian: Yes, yes. It is equal. Jeff: Because I had to get him to sign my “Running with Lions.” Podcast listeners know that was one of my favorite books of last year. Julian: Thank you. Jeff: And you’ve got a little sneak peek… Julian: I do. Jeff: Right now of “How To Be Remy Cameron,” which comes out September 10th. Julian: Yes, yes. September 10th, yes. Jeff: Tell us what this is about. Julian: Remy is a very personal book. It’s about an out and proud teen in high school, who has always felt like he’s known himself until he has this AP lit course. And one of the final grades he has to write an essay about who am I and it’s like the make or break essay. He’s trying to get into Emory University, and he needs this course in order to get there. And so, he has this kind of panic mode of, “Okay, but who am I?” Because he’s always been defined by, “Oh, he’s the gay kid who came out at 14,” or, “Oh, he’s one of five black students that go to our school,” or “Oh, he’s the big brother to this character,” and he’s just all these labels he wears all the time. He’s, “This is who I am.” But then he starts to realize, “Is that all I am and do these labels really define exactly who Remy Cameron is?” So, it’s kinda an exploration of what labels mean to us, but it also has a great family dynamic. A couple of secret mystery parts I can’t tell you about but there’s a lot of guessing games going on in it. And of course, it wouldn’t be me if I didn’t have like a dorky romance in there. So, that’s in there too. Jeff: A dorky romance? I like that because that’s… Julian: Yes, that’s exactly what I promise you. It’s so geeky, it’s so dorky. Jeff: That’s kind of what “Lions” was as well for sure. That’s a good label for it. How would you say that your writing has evolved from first book to second? Julian: Oh, it’s a lot. A lot. With the first book, I just kinda wanted to write the feel-good story, and that was my goal, and touching on certain issues throughout the book. And it also was written in third person and “Remy’s” written in first person. I’ve never, not even when I was like a small child, wrote in first person. I love reading books like that, but I thought, I just can’t do that, it’s just too personal. And so, it was a challenge doing that, but it was a lot of fun. And “Remy,” like I said, it’s very personal, so exploring parts of myself and things that I see throughout, you know, our community and things like that. It really helped me grow as a writer to really say, Okay, you can challenge yourself and you can fail at it, but you can also improve. And that was great. So, to fail, I struggled so much in the beginning, but to have that under my belt now, it’s I think I could write a lot of different stories. Jeff: So, you think you’ll visit first again sometimes? Julian: Oh, yeah, yes, yes. The next book I’m working on, first might be where I’m stuck now. I think this might be my calling. I don’t know. Jeff: Okay. I could tell you, first is a nice place to be. Julian: Yeah, it is. Jeff: What are some elements of this book that are so personal to you? Julian: Growing up. So, I grew up in Upstate New York where I was one of five black students at my school. And then when we moved to Georgia, I was one of 400 that went to my school. So, it’s very personal in the sense of, I went through a lot of phases of am I too gay? Am I black enough? Am I too perfect as a friend? Am I good enough friend? A lot of things that I went through, Remy goes through in the book. It also explores my love for a lot of geeky things and how for a while I wouldn’t let that define me because I thought, “Oh, no, this is bad, people are gonna make fun of me.” And Remy goes through that because he had a lot of geeky moments, but it’s almost like he’s scared to show them now that he knows that these are the things that I’m defined by. Jeff: I love that you point out the geeky thing because I saw on your Instagram earlier today of the comic books that you read into here at the Festival. Julian: Listen, I almost had to leave, you know, our booth just to go, you know, bow down at the comic book booth and just say, “Listen, thank you. I love it.” Jeff: Now, let’s talk about “Lions” for a second because you’ve had an amazing year. I mean, you started out of the gate that the book was blurbed by Becky Albertalli. Julian: Yeah. Jeff: And now, just within the last week or two, you’ve won an award for it. So, tell us a little bit about that. Julian: It’s been a wild journey because, first of all, like, I never thought I’d meet Becky Albertalli, I never thought I’d talk to her, I never thought, you know, I would become friends with her. And then just meeting all the other people along the way that I’ve met and growing in that area… I always felt like I was the kid sitting at the table in the corner where I peek over at all the cool kids and say, “Yeah, I’m never sitting at that table,” but it’s been kinda really awesome being taken in by so many different people and I never thought I’d be an award-winning author. Like, I wanted to write the book for queer kids to enjoy, to see themselves and know that, you know, you’re not some other subcategory, you’re just a normal person. It’s just that…this is just a part of you, it doesn’t define you. And to win an award, I broke down crying. It wasn’t something I was expecting going into this because my journey has always been about the reader but to have something for myself was amazing. It still is amazing. I’m not over it. I guess I won’t be over it until I actually hold the award in my hands and say, “This happened.” Jeff: This actually happened. And the cover too, which was a stunning cover, also won. Julian: Yes, the cover won for best cover. And that was so great for me in the sense that I love our cover designer, C.B. Messer. She’s amazing. She reads all the books cover to cover. And so, she knows these characters, she knows their stories, and what she did with that cover just blew me away. What she did with the “Remy” cover, I’m still in complete awe of just how well she knows these characters. Jeff: When we talked back last year, the book had hardly been out. Julian: Yeah. Jeff: How’s the reader response been to it? Julian: It’s been amazing. Today just alone, just so many people will walk by and say, “Oh my gosh, ‘Running with Lions,’ I’ve heard of that book.” And I’m just like, “What? Of all the books that came out in 2018, you heard of that book?” The response has been amazing. Going to the events and having people walk up to me and say, “Thank you for writing this book because I played soccer all my life, but there was never a queer soccer book.” Or, “Thank you for writing this because there weren’t a lot of books with bisexual main characters, or characters that were gay and Muslim, or black characters, or whatever.” It’s been amazing, the response I get. I get teary-eyed every time. I’m like, “I’m not strong enough for this, we can’t talk about this.” But it’s also been so cool to know that I’m helping someone see themselves because I didn’t always get that opportunity growing up. So, to know I’m getting to be a part of their journey, it’s just been amazing. Jeff: Fantastic. And what have you thought of the fair, of the festival? Because it’s your first time up here. Julian: Yes, this is my first time here for the festival. And I was talking to another friend about it because I went to YALLWEST last year. YALLWEST is this…it’s nice little corner and then this is like a whole city. Like, I get lost every time I go either to the bathroom or get something to drink. But it’s amazing because it brings so many different publishers, so many different books together, so many different genres, so many different kinds of authors are here. And that’s the amazing part to me, just to know how influential books are because there are people everywhere all the time, stacks of books in their arms. And you don’t really get to see that in, like, media, like how impactful books are, how much people really enjoy the art that we put out there. So, this has just been amazing to watch how excited people get when they see the books. Jeff: Yeah, it’s been very cool here. So, thank you so much for hanging out with us. Julian: Thank you. You know, I love you guys. Jeff: Best of luck on “How To Be Remy Cameron,” coming out September 10th. Interview with Kim Fielding and Venona Keyes Jeff: We are at the Los Angeles Times Festival of Books with Kim Fielding and Venona Keyes. Thanks for being here. Kim: Thanks so much. Venona: Thanks for asking. Jeff: We’re excited to have you both here. And now, Kim, of course, within the past couple of weeks, we’ve raved about the “The Spy’s Love Song” and the new “Dreamspun Desires.” Where did the inspiration for this book come from? Because it was so good. Kim: I think a big part of the inspiration came from my travels in Eastern Europe. So, you know, thinking about the way things used to be in Eastern Europe and how things are changing, plus politics as they’re happening right now. And so, yeah, I think that was the main thing. Jeff: What kind of research did you have to do to develop your spy and your rock star who becomes kind of…along on this mission without even knowing he’s on it? Kim: I didn’t have to do too much research on the spy part or on the travel part, but rock stars and music is not something I know anything or have any talent or anything else about, so that was where I had to do most of my research because I don’t know what it’s like. I don’t know what it’s like to be a rock star. I can’t even sing. Jeff: Does that mean you what it’s like to be a spy? Kim: Hmm, I’m not…I can’t divulge. Venona: You have kids. Kim: Yeah, I have kids. Jeff: And you wrote song lyrics too? Kim: I did. Yeah, I know. And it was really fun. And then in the audio version, my narrator Drew Bacca sang them, which was so cool. And it’s like, this is the closest I’m ever gonna get to being a songwriter. And it’s so much fun to listen to. And I can pretend, you know, like, I’m the next thing. Jeff: Which actually raises the question, did you give him an idea of what the melody for it was or did he just kind of make that up? Kim: I had no melody in mind. I didn’t know he was gonna sing. When I write a book, I’m sorry narrators, I don’t think about what I’m doing to my narrators. And so, sometimes I torture them, and I wasn’t even thinking about a narrator singing it. So, that was his idea and I was so pleased. Jeff: And this is a little different in “Dreamspuns” as well and I noted it in my review that you are a single point of view here. Did you go into it deliberately that way or just kind of organically discovered it was the way to go? Kim: It made more sense for this book because there’s some surprises about our spy character and I think it’s a lot more fun if we kinda discover the surprises along with the other character rather than knowing right from the start. So, you know, for some books, the dual point of view works really well, but for this one, I think this works well. Jeff: Yeah, I totally agree on that. Now, this is part of a bigger series that’s happening within the “Dreamspuns.” Kim: It is. Jeff: Tell us a little bit about the series overall. Kim: Sure. So, this series is called “Stars from Peril” and this is the first book in it. The second book comes out next month, and that’s “Redesigning Landry Bishop.” And the third book, I just finished the first round of edits on. It’ll be out in October and that one is “Drawing the Prince.” We went over several titles on that one. And so, what all three of them have in common is the main characters are from the same small town in Nebraska called Peril, Nebraska. And all three main characters have made it big in some way. So, our first guy is a rock star, our second guy is kind of a Martha Stewart type, and the third guy is an artist. And so, they’ve made it big in the world and they meet someone. And so, you can read each of them as a standalone and in any order you want to, but you’ll kind of see the characters appearing a little bit in one another’s story. Jeff: It didn’t even click for me that it was the name of the town too because peril plays into their own peril. Kim: Exactly. And I honestly cheated a little bit on that. There is a real town, a tiny little town, I think there’s like 60 people in it, in Nebraska called Hazard, Nebraska. So, Peril. Jeff: Peril, Hazard, it works. Kim: And it’s a great name. Jeff: Now, people may be wondering, why do we have both of them here together? Well, Venona and Kim also co-write. Tell us about that book. Venona: “Running Blind.” I will tell you this came about some years ago in Portland at our Dreamspinner meetup and she pulls me aside. Now, you have to understand that I was such a fan of Kim. I love “Brute”, I loved all of her stuff. And then she’s talking to me and I’m like, “You sure you’re talking to me because, you know, I don’t, like, co-write. I’m really bad at, you know, doing it by myself.” And she goes, “Oh, yeah, I heard on NPR…” And that’s how it started. Because Peter Sagal who’s out of Chicago hosts, “Wait, wait, Don’t Tell Me.” He is a running guide for blind people for marathons.” So, she had the idea and we came up with “Running Blind.” Kim: And the reason why Venona was such a perfect choice is because, unlike me, she does triathlons. So, I didn’t have to do the research on marathon running. Venona: No, or running guides either. Stuff like, “Yeah. That’s your department,” I’m like, “All right, we can do this.” And it’s a wonderful book and we decided that we wanted to have a second story because in the beginning, and it’s not giving a spoiler away, is Kyle and Matt who have been friends, who went to college together, were friends, became lovers, and now they’re in a comfortable pattern, and they really love each other but as brothers rather than lovers. So, when something happens to Kyle, Kyle breaks it off and he goes, “You gotta go do stuff.” And Matt’s reluctant, but this story is about Kyle and how he deals with the things that have happened in his life. So, the next book that we’re writing, the working title is “Playing,” is Matt’s story about how he finds romance after the breakup. Jeff: And when do we get to see that one come out? TBD. Venona: TBD. Kim: Well, that one is still in progress. Venona: It’s still in progress. It’s now in my hands. And so, we switch back and forth when we write, and I need to get it back to Kim. So, hopefully soon. Jeff: And you’ve got some other co-writing coming too? You’re working with Shira Anthony as well. Venona: Shira Anthony, it is another story. It’s actually about a farmer and a city boy. So, that one is coming up soon and that’s an honor of a friend of ours from GRL. So, we’re writing a story about a farmer which he is and who’s not out and a city boy who is. So, it’s a lot of fun. We already have the outline and we’re just getting started on writing that as well too. Jeff: Very cool. Anything else coming up we should know about? Venona: Yes. “How to Become a K-pop Idol,” I am writing that one by myself. We might get a co-writer on that one, you never know. But that one is, if people aren’t familiar with this, I love Korean culture, a lot of Asian culture, Japanese, Korean. I’m learning Korean. I’ve been a K-pop fan since 2009 proudly with the Big Bang. Jeff: Before it was cool. Venona: Before it was cool. And my bias is right now, because Big Bang, if you don’t know in Korea, you have to go in for military service mandatory by the time you’re 30. So, a lot of the K-pop idols are going in. So, new ones are coming up. So, the third gens right now is BTS, if you’ve not heard of Bangtan Sonyeondan, BTS, they’re really big. They’re the band that I’m following right now. Jeff: Very cool. Anything coming up for you, Kim, a part from the Peril series? Kim: Yes, start of the Peril series at the end of this month, so April 30th. I’ve got a new novella coming out. So, if people who are following my “Bureau” series, there’ll be a new novella in that. And I wanna push that because I give all my royalties for that to Doctors Without Borders. So, this is the fourth story in that series, but you can read them as standalones too. Venona: And they’re awesome stories too, I love those. Kim: Thanks. Jeff: And what have you guys thought of the festival? Venona: You know, this is the first time I’ve been here, and it is awesome. There’s just so many people here, there’s so many different books, and you get to browse them all at the same time instead of in a little bookstore somewhere. So, yeah. Kim: And it’s been a lot of fun just kinda hanging out with everybody, LA is fun. So, it’s been a lot of fun. Jeff: Very cool. Well, thanks for hanging out with us for a few minutes. Kim: Thanks so much. Venona: Thanks for asking us. Interview with S.A. Stovall Jeff: And we’re at the LA Times Festival of Books with S.A. Stovall. Thanks so much for being here with us. S.A.: Well, thank you for having me. It’s super exciting. Jeff: Now, you’re the author of “Vice City,” it’s currently two books in the series. Tell us a little bit about what the series is? S.A.: It’s a crime thriller like a noir style. Ironically, if you’ve ever read “Sin City,” which is a graphic novel, it’s kind of similar to that. I used to work at a courthouse and I got a lot of green, was an attorney and all that. I don’t do that anymore because it’s a little depressing, but I used some of my experience in that to write the series. And I really like redemption stories and like criminals turning it around. That’s what I did in the courts is I helped a lot of drug addicts get to rehab and turn their life around. And so, I’m really into that kind of story. So, the series follows an ex-mobster who like, you know, leaves the mob and then becomes a private detective, and then, you know, shenanigans ensue. Jeff: Shenanigans ensue? S.A.: Yeah. Jeff: And he’s consistent through the series? S.A.: He’s the main viewpoint. There’s a romance a subplot in which he falls in love with like a police academy cadet, and obviously, that’s his in to the police and you know, again, more shenanigans ensue that way. In the sequel book that just came out, one of the subplots is that a police officer suspects the main character’s actual identity, that he had connections to the mob and used to be a mob enforcer. And so, he’s out to prove that it’s him. And so, you know, it’s a thriller story so it’s got lots of thrills. Jeff: Mystery, suspense, thrills, it’s all there. S.A.: Yes, exactly. Jeff: What got you into starting to write these books? S.A.: So, I had a friend who really likes Dreamspinner Press and I used to write just books like short stories for my D&D group, because they really liked, you know, fantasy, all that kind of stuff. So, I wrote short story fantasies and she was like, “My God, you should write me a Dreamspinner-style novel, like, that’s what you should write for me.” And I was like, “Okay, I don’t know if I can do it as good as all these other people, but I’ll try.” And I wrote “Vice City” for her specifically. I even put that in the dedication. I’m like, “It’s just for you.” I didn’t think that it would go anywhere because, you know, I was just like, “Okay.” But I got an agent after I wrote this and then the agent sold it to Dreamspinner and then they published it for the DSP line because that’s where they do genre stuff. Jeff: It doesn’t necessarily have the romance in it, right? S.A.: Yeah. Well, mine does but it’s not the focal point. The focal point is the, you know, mystery and the mobster story. So, I was very surprised. I didn’t think it would go anywhere but it totally went somewhere. So, every time somebody is like, “Oh, I don’t know if I should write a novel,” there’s a piece of me that’s like, “Man, I just wrote that novel willy-nilly. So, you should try, you should do it. You should try.” Now admittedly, you know, I was writing before I wrote this because I wrote other stories and short stories, but still, if you’re thinking about it, you should just do it, you know. Don’t even think to yourself, “Oh, nobody will read this,” because I kinda thought, “Nobody’s gonna read a crime noir.” You know what I’m saying? Like, I was like, “That’s old school, nobody reads that kind of stuff anymore.” But no, people do, and people like it. So, I was really happy. Jeff: And you noted that the second book just came out. Do you have plans for third? S.A.: Yeah. Jeff: What is yet to come? S.A.: I’m about halfway through the third book and it’s a true series in the sense that it could go for as long as I want it or, you know, that kind of thing. It’s not like a trilogy or a set thing like, “Oh, something needs to happen.” But, you know, as a private investigator, anything can happen, you know, all sorts of shenanigans can ensue. Jeff: Very true, very true. S.A.: But there is a connecting theme. The whole reason that it’s the vice enforcer is that the mob that he used to work for was the vice family, and they’re still around by book three so you can kinda see the, like, he’s trying to take them down one by one. And so, I guess I could be limited to and then it got the whole vice family and then the series is over. But, you know, there’s that connecting thread too. Jeff: Now, that you’ve been writing in this genre, do you wanna expand out to other genres or is noir thriller kind of your sweet spot? S.A.: Well, it’s just a thing that I like a lot, that I thought, you know, nobody likes this anymore, but I like it. I wrote “Modern Gladiator” which is just a pure romance for Dreamspinner. It was a sports romance with UFC fighter. Jeff: Oh, cool. S.A.: I, a few years back, was dating a guy who was in the UFC. And so, I just used all of that experience to write a sports romance. And I know a lot about, you know, wrestling and all that kind of stuff just from him. And I put a lot of that kind of information in the book and it literally just came out about two weeks ago. Yeah, “Modern Gladiator” came out. And then I do a lot of fantasy and science fiction on the side as well. So, I mean, all sorts of things, all crazy things. Jeff: Very cool. Now you’re also an artist? S.A.: Yes, that’s true. Jeff: While she’s been here doing her signings and such, she’s also been doing caricatures of people who get their book signed. And so, we had this one done of us. It is so freaking adorable. How did this get started for you? S.A.: I’ve just always drawn things. I like doodling. I was really into comic books at a point in my life. I mean, so many comic books and manga. I mean, anything that was drawn and kind of that like storybook style with the panel, super loved. But I didn’t really intend for it to go anywhere. I went and got my history degree, I got a law degree. I wasn’t like, “Man, I need to study art.” But I did at least doodle enough that I was like, “I’m mildly good, you know.” And when I went to my first ever book fair, I thought, “I can’t just be the schmoe who’s standing in a booth trying to peddle their book, because I’m gonna be like 50 other people in the road doing the exact same thing. I should try and do something that’s at least enticing or to get people to read my stuff.” And I figured, “Hey, I could try a little caricature, and while I’m drawing them, they can read my book. And if it’s enticing enough, you know, they’ll buy the book, or they’ll feel guilty enough to buy the book, you know, I don’t know, whatever gets them to buy the book.” And a lot of people usually give me comments right away. Like, the first line in “Vice City,” everybody always comments, well, not everybody but like 80% of people. The first line is, “Getting hit with a wrench hurts.” And, so many people either laugh or comment like, “Oh my God, what a good line,” and I’m like, “Yeah.” And the first chapter in “Vice City” is an interrogation of that police cadet. So, Pierce, the mobster, is interrogating this guy who he thinks is a police mole. So, it’s really intense, you know, high stakes going on. I really like that first chapter and it usually hooks people. So, they read that first chapter while I’m drawing them and, bam, that’s my sales strategy. Don’t steal it. I’m joking, everybody can use it. Jeff: It’s all her’s. S.A.: Anybody can do it. Jeff: But the key is, like, I could never draw. There’s no way I’d do this, I’d have to find another hook. S.A.: I’ve been successful with it. People typically like that. And the caricatures are free. I just give them to people. So, even if they don’t buy the book, you know, it’s fine. Jeff: And it’s awesome watching her do them. We watched as she did ours. It’s like, “Oh my God, there we are just manifesting on the page.” It was very cool. Well, thank you so much for hanging out with us a little bit. One last question, what have you thought of the fair? S.A.: It’s good. There are a lot of people here though. I mean, just thousands of people all over the place. Going to the food trucks was fun, although not during lunchtime. There’s like a mile-long line from here to the sun and back. Nobody wants to do that. But the food trucks are good, the people seem to be really nice, and I don’t know, it’s just a good time. Jeff: Excellent. Well, thank you so much for spending a little bit of time with us. S.A.: Thank you for having me again, like, super awesome.

The guys open the show with a discussion of the Netflix original Unicorn Store. Jeff reviews Bad to the Bone by Nicki Bennett. Will reviews LaQuette’s Under His Protection. Jeff & Will interview LaQuette about Under His Protection. They find out about the story’s inspiration and how it ties into LaQuette’s other series. LaQuette also shares details on her upcoming Harlem Heat series, what got her started writing romance and details about what she does as the president for New York City’s Romance Writers of America chapter. Complete shownotes for episode 184 are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Book Reviews from this week: Bad to the Bone by Nicki Bennett. Reviewed by Jeff Bad to the Bone turned out to be one of those perfect Dreamspun Desires for me. I’m a sucker for second chance romance combined with friends to lovers and this one adds in a bit from the redeemed bad boy trope as well. It all combined to give me exactly the read that I needed. The story kicks off on the eve of a high school reunion taking place in a small Oklahoma town. Alex Morrison has been back in town for several years, taking over his family’s hardware store when his parents needed him to. One afternoon, while working with his sister at the store, they witness a motorcyclist pulled over and it’s soon revealed that the man is Alex’s high school bestie, Ricky Lee Jennings. Alex hasn’t heard from Ricky Lee since he was expelled and sent away to reform school. Alex regretted he didn’t defend Ricky Lee and prevent the expulsion, but he was scared he’d lose his football scholarship if he did. Sparks fly at the reunion when Ricky Lee shows up without a ticket and Alex gets him in as his guest. What unfolds over the coming weeks is the rekindling of far more than a friendship. Nicki does so much with this rather simple set up. Both characters complexity made me love this book so much. Alex is someone I wanted to wrap up in a comforting hug. He does so much for the community that he lives in between serving on the library board, working for Habitat for Humanity, helping out with the high school reunion committee, and anything else he can do to help his fellow citizens. Yet, all he can see in himself is failure from a lost college football career because of an injury, a failed marriage, and even coming back to manage his family business is something he considers a fail because he gave up his dreams of being an environmental lobbyist. Of course, what he’s done is made the decisions that are right in the moment but he can’t see that. Ricky Lee, on the other hand, subverts every stereotype the town has for him. It’s awesome to watch as people who believe they know exactly who he is after ten years begin to see who he has become. He’s far from the young man who was abused by his alcoholic father and just wanted to survive high school. As both relive their high school times and share what they are doing now, Ricky Lee and Alex are drawn back together. Alex, however, is sure this can’t be more than a fling. He’s scared of revealing himself as bisexual to the town and there’s no way Ricky Lee will move back to Oklahoma since he’s got a life in Portland. The wooing that Ricky Lee does with Alex is outstanding. I love a good date and their weekend trip to Oklahoma City is all that. They stay at a boutique hotel, go to art museums and the botanical gardens and eat delicious food. The sizzling sex made the date all the hotter. It showed Alex in vivid detail what life could be like in if he decides to make a go of it with Ricky Lee. The other depth that Nikki weaves into this book is the town Alex lives in. In particular, I liked the local pastor, who is nothing like what you might expect a southern pastor to be. He turns out to be one of Alex’s biggest supporters in being true to himself. We also see Alex’s work with the library, which is a central subplot for the story since Alex and Ricky Lee’s high school nemesis, Odell, who wants to expand his car dealership by buying the land the library sits on. The goings-on with Odell took some wonderful turns that I couldn’t have predicted and I might’ve cheered just a little when everything was revealed and [spoiler alert] Odell gets his. It’s a great ending for a high school bully. There’s a tremendous cast of supporting characters too. Alex’s sister Alana and his best friend, local police officer Samantha, a.k.a. Sam, both nudge Alex in the right direction. Ricky Lee comes to town with Crae, who he introduces as his friend and assistant although many initially think they are in a relationship. I actually wish Crae had had more screen time in the book as they were a fascinating character. Crae and Sam develop a friendship that might be more and I’d love to see a book that explores that. There are also some townsfolk who have interesting reveals to Alex along the way that were incredibly sweet. And if audio is your thing, certainly pick this one up. Colin Darcy is a new-to-me-narrator and boy did he make me swoon with his voice for Ricky Lee–deep, rumbly sexiness. If you’re looking for a great category romance with some very tropey goodness, I highly recommend Nicki Bennett’s Bad to the Bone. Under His Protection by LaQuette. Reviewed by Will. This book literally starts with a bang when one of our main characters, assistant DA Camden, is nearly blown up by a car bomb. In order to keep him safe, he’s put in protective police custody. Unfortunately, the man watching over him is the memorable one night stand he walked away from five years ago, a guy named Elisha. Sequestered away in Elisha’s Westchester house, our two heroes must come to grips with the attraction that still, after all this time, is still there. As things start to become more romantic, the situation becomes even more complicated when Elisha’s family shows up for a weekend visit. They assume that the two of them are a couple and Cam and Elijah play along since it’s too dangerous to explain why Cam is hiding out at Elijah’s house. Over the course of the weekend Cam can’t help but fall for Elisha and his wonderfully crazy family. You might think things get a little too close for comfort with are two heroes and the family all in one house. Elisha actually has a very small apartment in his attached garage. They escape there every once in a while, for some truly superduper scorching sex. The chemistry between these characters is very real and very palatable. As the weekend winds down, there’s an unfortunate kidnapping attempt by this crazy religious group and Cam sacrifices himself in order to save Elisha’s mom. Camden ends up in hospital and, unfortunately, his father arrives on the scene. Camden’s life has essentially been controlled by his father, who’s had his son’s life planned out from my birth to death. It’s essentially how Cam has lived his entire life. The expectations of his father are actually part of the reason why he walked away from Elisha five years ago. Having a sexy one night fling and living a life with an average guy like Elisha just wasn’t in the plan. After experiencing the possibility of loving a man like Elisha and realizing the wonderful possibilities of a fun and fulfilling family life, he tries to stand up to his father. Cam’s father puts a stop to everything, setting up some genuinely insurmountable roadblocks to our hero’s happiness. But Cam and Elisha are not only charismatic and sexy, but also really super smart. With the help of Elisha’s police chief friend, Cam concocts a way to outwit his father and get out from under his thumb, so he Elisha can live happily ever after. I don’t know if I can adequately find the correct words, or enough adjectives to tell you how much I loved Cam and Elisha’s story. It’s just really damn good. One of my favorites of 2019 so far!   I hope it’s obvious that I really enjoyed Under His Protection by LaQuette and I highly recommend that everyone give it a read. Interview Transcript - LaQuetteWill: We are so pleased to welcome LaQuette to the show. Welcome. LaQuette: Thank you. Will: So I just spent several minutes praising and telling the entire world how much I loved "Under His Protection." Now, you've been writing for a while now, and I freely admit this is the very first book of yours that I have read, and I went absolutely bonkers for it. I love it to pieces. LaQuette: Oh, thank you. Will: Can you give us sort of an idea of where the concept for "Under His Protection" came from? LaQuette: Well, I was encouraged by Kate McMurray to submit a "Dreamspun Desires" concept. And I kind of read the submission guideline, and I really didn't think that the category section was for me, because I'm long-winded in my writing and there's this, you know, 50,000-word count, and I didn't know that I could meet that and make the story make sense. But I just felt like, you know, there's a lot of angst in my writing and a lot of heavy topics sometimes. And I didn't... You know, category can be light and, you know, it doesn't have so much angst to it, so I wasn't sure if it was actually the right fit for me. But she encouraged me to do it anyway. So I thought, "Well, if I'm gonna do it, it has to be, like, LaQuette style. It can't be, you know, the traditional map of a category. I've gotta throw, you know, everything but the kitchen sink in it." And I had this sort of, like, this Prince and Pauper sort of situation in my head, but in Brooklyn. And it worked out really well in my head anyway. I really enjoy the idea of Camden coming from this really, really posh existence, and then clashing with Elijah and his very loud and boisterous family. And, I think, putting those two people together and those two, you know, with their backgrounds and differences in their backgrounds and the differences in their, you know, perspectives in life, it really...it just made for a richer experience for me, as a writer. Will: I utterly fell in love with Camden and Elijah. I think they're two incredibly...they are exceptional heroes, and they're part of what makes this book really sing. But as I mentioned in my review just a few minutes ago, part of what, I think, what makes the story compelling and even more enjoyable is the sort of supporting cast that helps them along in their journey towards saying, "I love you." Elijah's family is amazing, every single one of them. But I was particularly struck by one of Elijah's co-workers, the police chief, who is his best friend, along with, you know, being a colleague. And what I was struck by is that at the beginning of the book, the character seemed, you know, pretty, you know, straightforward, it was a secondary character, and she was there to kind of like, you know, get the story moving along. But as we read further and get to know Camden and Elijah more and more, she becomes a much more integral part of the story. And in fact, she's pretty vital to the solution that Cam comes up towards the end. And I was really surprised to read in an interviewer just, I think, this last week it appeared online. I learned that one of the reasons that this secondary character is so well-drawn is because she's actually already had her own book. LaQuette: She's had three books, actually. Will: Can you tell us real quickly, for our listeners, can you tell us about the origin of this particular character and why you thought she would be such a good fit for Camden and Elijah's story? LaQuette: Captain Heart Searlington is a character from my "Queens of Kings" series, which is all heroine-centered. And she is this...you know, her name is Heart for a reason, because she has a huge heart, even though she really carries it under this gruff exterior. She's a badass, she's all about getting work done. And if you ever get the chance to read her books, you know, she's really out there hands-on in the street. And I felt like Elijah would need someone like that, professionally and personally, to kind of...to get him to the place where he could admit his flaws. Someone that's not... You know, he's a very...he's a large man, he's aggressive, you know, he carries a gun, so he could be a little bit intimidating for the average person. But for her, she's not afraid to tell him like it is to his face. And, you know, when you have that kind of a personality where people might not tell your truth because they find you imposing, having someone who will speak the truth to you, regardless of whatever the situation is, can be vital to you, you know, making the right choices in life. And I felt like having her there would give him that balance, because he needed some really cold truths told to him, for him to get his head together and do what he needed to do. Jeff: Was it always your intention to have the character crossover or did that just kind of manifest itself? LaQuette: Well, the precinct that they work at is sort of anytime I have a police situation, those cops show up in a book somewhere. So one, because, you know, the world is already created, so it's kind of easy for me to draw from that precinct, but it's also because my readers absolutely adore this woman. And so they're always asking for her, and this was an opportunity for her to show up and say, "Hi." And not in a way that overshadows, you know, the main story, which is Camden and Elijah, but just enough to make readers go, "Oh, my God. She's here." Jeff: It's always good to get those universe crossovers and little Easter eggs like that, for sure. LaQuette: It's true. It's very true. Will: Yeah. Now, "Under His Protection" is not your first M/M romance. LaQuette: No, it is not. Will: There's also "Love's Changes," which I believe came out in 2016? LaQuette: Yes. Will: And I wanted to ask you, what drew you to writing in this specific subgenre? I mean, along with all of your other books that are more traditional male/female romances? LaQuette: Well, one, I wholeheartedly believe that everyone deserves a happy ending. And when I wrote the "Queens of King" series, I always knew that Heart's cousin, because the characters, the protagonists in "Love's Changes" are Bryan, who is one of Heart's lieutenants, you met him, actually, in "Under His Protection," and her cousin, Justice. And so they get to have their own story. You get to see them a little bit in the "Queens of King" series, but they're more background. We know that they were having a hard time and they were broken up for some reason, but we don't know why. So they get, you know, readers... Which really surprised me because I didn't really believe that there was a lot of crossover between male-female readers and male-male readers. But people really asked me for a story for those two. Like, "When are we gonna get Justice and Bryan's story? We wanna know what happens to them and how they get back together." And so I that story was actually born out of the fact that readers requested it, and so I gave it to them. Jeff: That's very cool. You know, it's always nice to see as the M/F readers catch the male-male pairing to then want to know more. LaQuette: Yes, it was really a trip for me. I did not believe that they would want it at all. But it was very touching to write their story. I was very happy with how the story turned out. I was very happy with the fact that they get their happily ever after. And it's not...it's connected to the "Queens of Kings" series, but it's not really part of it. So the story kind of takes place outside of everything that's going on in that particular story. Jeff: Do you envision more, I guess, "Dreamspun Desires" books that happened in the universe you've created with everything that's going on so far? LaQuette: I really didn't, but I've been getting a lot of mail recently about this book. And, you know, people wanting to know what happens after this. They wanna see how Camden's family kind of blends with Elijah's family and how that's going to work. I'm like, "Dude, I'm not there. Like, I have so many other projects. I can't right now. But we'll come back to that maybe." Jeff: Just based on your review, I don't see how those families mesh. Will: Two different worlds. Most definitely, yeah. LaQuette: They really are. Jeff: Now, one of the things that I'm super excited about, having recently read about, is your new contract with Dreamspinner for "Harlem Heat." LaQuette: Yes, "Harlem Heat," so when stuff makes me mad, it also makes me really productive. So I was really kind of getting tired of hearing the "not historically accurate moniker" criticism given to African-American romance, especially historical African-American romance. And it just bothered me because it's not that those happily-ever-afters weren't possible. It's just people aren't really aware of the completed history. So a lot of thing...you know, a lot of people who think they know about African-American history, the only thing they know is slavery and Jim Crow, and that's it. And, you know, black people have been downtrodden since we were brought to this country. But that's not exactly the truth because even in all of the horror, there were still moments of triumph. And we didn't just, you know, survive, we thrived. We're still here, the proof that we're still here, you know, the proof that we had happiness at some point is that we're still here. So I decided I wanted to write about a time that was where to be black and to be gay wasn't something that you had to hide from the world. It wasn't something you had to...you had your own pocket of community. There was a celebration of it. And I wanted to speak to that. I wanted people to know that these two intersections of life existed with happy endings. Jeff: And this series, in particular, is gonna go to such an interesting time period in the U.S. when all of the Harlem Renaissance was happening. LaQuette: Yeah, so it's based on three actual people who lived during the Harlem Renaissance. So it's based on Bumpy Johnson, who was the godfather of Harlem for 30 years. It's based on Langston Hughes, who was a great contributor to the Harlem Renaissance as a poet and writer. And it's also based on Cab Calloway, who was sort of one of the most notable faces in jazz and jazz music and jazz performance at the Cotton Club. So we're gonna see... we won't be using their names, but those characters will be based off of those actual people. Will: Yeah, because it was...I think it was like mere moments after I finished reading "Under His Protection." I read about this Harlem Renaissance series that you were doing, and I like lost my mind. I was like, totally doing a happy dance. This is going to be so amazing. I know this is still far in the future. But when do you think we can expect this series? LaQuette: I don't know. And that's the God's honest truth. I'm actually currently writing, finishing up the series for Sourcebooks. And so "Harlem Heat" doesn't...I don't think I'm projected to start it until like the end of the year. So I don't know exactly when it's going to be ready. But I mean, you know, ready for the world anyway. But I think I can talk to someone about getting you a beta read...a copy for beta reading if you'd like. Jeff: Please do. Yes. Will: That would be amazing. Jeff: I imagine the research for that got to be a lot of fun to look at that period in history and figure out what parts you wanna take and use. LaQuette: It is. I mean, I was very fortunate when I was in college. When I did my undergrad in creative writing. I was very fortunate to have a professor who thought outside of the box, and he taught a class on Harlem Renaissance. That was amazing. I mean, it was so rich and filled with culture. And you know, not just the usual things that we see in mainstream history but, you know, getting really down to the nitty-gritty of it. And you know, showing you to...I'm sure that when you when you guys, as gay men, look at the history of the LGBT community, and you get to see it unfold, there's such a moment of connection there. And it's the same thing for black people when we're getting to experience our history because we don't often get to see it through mainstream lens. And so to see it and to see the information dispensed in a way that's positive and celebratory and uplifting, it changes your whole perception of yourself, of who you are and where you came from. And so I'm delighted to be able to dig back into that. I have Piper Huguley, who is a history professor at Spelman College. I believe it's Spelman. And she's also a romance writer, and she's brilliant. So she helps me with a great deal with telling me what books I need to read for this period, and where I need to look for information. But it's so much fun. It really is so much fun. Jeff: That's amazing. Let's talk origin story for a minute. How did you get started writing romance? What led you down this path? LaQuette: I didn't see me on the page. I started reading romance when I was about 16 years old. Way too young to be reading some of the stuff I was reading, but you know, hey. And by the time I was about 18, I probably went through every "Harlequin Presents" that my local library had. And every romance novel I read, it was never about a girl that looked like me, never about places where I lived. So it kind of pulled me out of the romance reading for a while because it was nice to read about those stories, but there was just something missing for me after a while. And I probably, at the time, didn't recognize that I was internalizing that these stories were basically saying, "Romance isn't for you. You don't look like this. You don't fit this mold, so romance isn't for you." And I kind of just pulled away from it. And I think after I finished my undergrad, I just wanted to relax and have some fun and I kind of got back into it. And at the time, I discovered black romance was a thing. And I discovered people like Rochelle Alers, and Brenda Jackson, and Zane. And I'm like, "Wow." Like, it became exciting again. It was refreshing. It was new and yet still very familiar because I could see myself in all of the antics that were going in these stories. I could see myself in those characters. And so I decided I wanted to do that. I wanted to create those spaces, create more stories like that so people could have those connections in reality, you know, reactions when they opened up a book and saw themselves. Jeff: Now that you are writing, what do you think the trademarks of your books are? LaQuette: I do sex and snark really well. Like, I do sarcasm really well because that's my language. It really is my language, and sex, yeah, that's so if you're gonna pick up a LaQuette book, you're going to get lots of sex and lots of sarcasm. Jeff: Did she meet those two in your book? Will: Oh, yeah. Just before we started this interview, we were talking about the possibilities of an audiobook for "Under His Protection." And whatever narrator lands this job is going to, number one, have the time of their life, because Camden and Elijah are very...the banter is very smart and very witty. But also, as you say, the sex scenes are...I'm not even sure what the correct adjective is. It's smoking hot. Yeah, you're gonna need a nice cool beverage after you listen to those scenes, for sure. LaQuette: I don't know that I could listen to that. I don't know that I could. It would be so weird for me. I don't know. I mean, I know I wrote the words, but to hear them aloud, I don't know that I could do that. Will: Exactly. Yeah. Jeff: Yeah, I know, you know, many authors can't listen to their own audio books. LaQuette: Especially those parts. Like I said, I do sex. Amy Lane told me, she was like, "You write sex in such a beautiful concrete way. Like, I just wanna have all the facts when I read your books." I'm like, "Amy, that is the sweetest and weirdest thing that anyone has ever said to me, and I love you for it." Jeff: That almost should be a blurb on the book cover or something. Will: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Jeff: Is there anything you're reading right now that you wanna shout out to people as like a book to grab? LaQuette: Oh, I'm reading a few books. So I just finished Adriana Herrera's...the third book in this "Dreamer" series, and I can't remember the title because it's not actually out yet. I beta read for her, and it is fantastic. I mean, book one is great and I love it. It was so real to me that literally, I had to drive like two to three miles from my house just to go get Dominican food, because I was so hungry after reading book one. Will: Exactly. Yes. Yeah. LaQuette: And book three does the same thing. There's lots of cultural food. And it's part of the tapestry of how these two people connect and share their backgrounds, their experiences, their worldviews. And not to mention, she's so good at writing books that are socially conscious without making you feel like you're being talked down to or preached at, and I love her for that, for being... I don't know that I could do that the way she does it. She's so talented. And I'm also reading...I'm halfway through...I stumble with her name because I know her as Blue Sapphire, but she's now writing as Royal Blue for Dreamspinner, "Kyle's Reveal." Will: Yeah, I've heard of this book, yeah. LaQuette: And I'm halfway through it. And, you know, she's fire, like, she writes hot books. So I'm really excited. I can't wait to get to the end of this book. Will: What was the name of that book again? LaQuette: "Kyle's Reveal." Will: Okay. And that's the...please remind me, is the basketball book, is that correct? LaQuette: Yes. Will: Okay, yes. LaQuette: I mean, it's kind of dark because the protagonists have like a really dark traumatic history. But it's definitely deep and I'm loving it. So I'm really, really, really interested in getting to the end to see if I could just get a minute to stop writing and finish it, I'd be great. Will: Awesome. Jeff: It's such a hard thing balancing. LaQuette: It is. Jeff: "I wanna to finish this book." Then it's like, "I don't wanna read it too fast." LaQuette: Exactly. Jeff: Finding that balance. LaQuette: It's true. Jeff: Are there tropes or genres that you wanna tackle that you just haven't yet in your own writing? LaQuette: I don't know that there are any tropes, because I kind of...I throw a lot of different tropes in my books. Like, "Under His Protection" has second chance romance, it also has proximity, it also has sort of kind of enemies to lovers the way Elijah and Camden started out in the book. And it could sort of kind of be considered like a workplace romance being that they're both involved in different sides of law enforcement. But I don't know. I mean, I've done secret baby before and I love that. That was really fun. And I've done...the only thing I haven't done is like May-December romances. So I think maybe that might be something I'd might want to try. Jeff: Cool. I would read that. I love a good May-December. Absolutely. So beyond the writing, which obviously takes up a lot of time, you also are the president of RWANYC. So the New York City chapter of Romance Writers of America. Tell folks what that entails and what actually led you to running for office. LaQuette: I didn't wanna run. I had no intention of running because I have a lot of stuff to do. And it takes time away from the things that I'm contracted to do. But one of the things that's very important in romance that's happening right now is the fact that romance can be a very whitewashed world, meaning the protagonists that we see, the authors that get the most opportunities are white authors and white characters. And so if you're not white... and straight characters. If you're not writing that, it's difficult to get into the door, it's difficult to find the same resources, the same backing. It's almost impossible to get contracts. And so I ran for president of RWANYC because I wanted, in some way, to help change that landscape, to do some of the work necessary with publishers to try to change that. And it's a heavy task, it's a heavy burden, especially when we get, you know, over the last couple of weeks, we are still reeling from the RITA Awards, which is basically like the Grammys for romance. And every year, it's the same thing. It's a very, very white landscape, and very few authors of color are made finalist. No black woman has ever won a RITA in the 30 years that this award has been established. And people do a lot of mental acrobatics to justify why that is. So "Oh, maybe the writing is just not that good. Maybe that's why we've never had a black RITA award winner. Maybe black authors are not entering." You know, these are also questions that are ridiculous, because statistically, it's just impossible that no black woman would ever have won in 30 years. It's just impossible. And the reason it is, is because the judging pool, there's a bias there in terms of black women and black characters, not just black authors, but black characters. Because you cannot know who the author is, but you cannot...well, I don't write characters who are racially ambiguous. I'm proud of my blackness and my characters are as well. And so I don't try to hide that or trick people into reading my books, or make it so difficult for people to recognize who a person is or what their background is because I feel like that is an important thing. In real life, we don't really get to not know who people are by looking at them. So I don't do it in my books. And because of that, it's very difficult when you know, going into this, "I'm gonna submit this book, and it's not going to final," not because it's a poorly written book, not because I didn't do everything I could to make this book as good as it could be, but simply because my characters, especially my heroines are black. And that is just something that the judging pool cannot handle as of yet. So my work as president is a lot of, you know, being the champion for this cause and taking on this battle because it's not just about me succeeding, it's about any black author who was writing black characters having the ability to write and be supported by the industry. And if I can make any sort of headway in that and if I can help anyone along the way, I'll feel like I've done something positive with my life. Will: With books like yours, and with Adriana Herrera, who you mentioned not too long ago, do you think it's really just a matter of representation that can help build awareness for diversity in romance or is there something else that readers, specifically, should be doing or asking for? LaQuette: Well, specifically, yeah. I mean, readers have a lot of power. So if you're asking publishers, you know, "Why don't we have more diverse romance? Why don't we have romance where...you know, that shows basically the colors of the rainbow and all those brilliant facets of intersectionality in life, like, why don't we have that?" Because your buying dollars is what demands, what makes the demand. Because publishers will say, "We don't sell that. We don't contract black books because they don't sell." One of the things we discussed at Dreamspinner was the cover. That was an intentional choice. I was very clear with them when we sat down and talked about this project that Elijah needed to be on the cover. I would not subscribe to the ideology that a black man on the cover can't sell. And there are...I mean, we've seen in our writing community that some publishing houses have actually made this statement. I don't subscribe to that. So we talked about it. And then we talked about the fact that readership sometimes can have a bias. And sometimes they won't engage with the book if they feel like the person is the wrong color or wrong background. And I said, "I understand that, but we're still gonna work...you know, to work with me, this is how we're gonna work." And they were in agreement. I didn't have to convince them. I went in prepared to battle. And it was like, "Listen, I really need this guy to be black and I really need him to look like this." And they were like, "We agree. We agree." So we need more of that in the industry. And it starts with readers. It also starts with the gatekeepers. People reaching out and specifically looking for these things. It also, people who are gatekeepers also need to check themselves. So when you're reading a book and you're saying, "I can't connect to it. I didn't relate to it." Why aren't you relating to it? Is it that it's a poorly written book? I've gotten rejection letters that literally said, "This is a really well-written book, but I didn't relate to the character, so I'm not gonna buy it." That doesn't really make a lot of sense, right? So what was it that you didn't relate to? If you could see that it was a really well-written book, I mean, if it's that good, why not work with me in terms of editing to kind of get things right, you know, to where it would be something that you feel is that you could sell. But a lot of publishing houses out there don't have that mentality. And it's this sort of...it's insidious. It's not something, you know, you can actually like, look and see. Some people don't even notice it. They just think, "Oh, I don't read those kinds of books because I don't like them." And it's not that they don't like them, it's that they've not actually giving them the opportunity to be great. Jeff: So that is, obviously, great words for the readers. Kind of spinning it back to your RWA role, you're in such a diverse chapter there because you're in NYC. LaQuette: Yeah. Jeff: How are the authors in that particular region banding together to like help RWA move past the issues? LaQuette: Oh, well, a lot of my recent successes, because, you know, allies, colleagues like Kate McMurray and Tere Michaels, are like, "Listen, you're fabulous, and we want you to meet people who will also think you're fabulous. So come here." And that's part of the beauty of RWA, and that's why I fight so hard for diversity and inclusion within RWA, because my success, as I said, my recent success has all been attached to people pushing me in different directions to say, "This is where you need to be. This is the person you need to meet." And if you're not a part of the organization, you can't make those connections. And networking connections will get you further than anything you know, right? So when we cut off authors of color from that source, from the resources, from the networking connections, and the opportunities that are presented to people who are part of the organization, what we're doing is we're disconnecting them from publishing. And we're forcing them to be indie. And this is not an indie versus trad conversation. This is... some people cannot be anything other than indie, because trad will not give them the opportunity. They've been completely marginalized. And so that should not be. People should be able to publish however they choose to, whether they up to be an indie author or whether they decide that the trad route is for them, because, you know, different strokes for different folks. It is different, you know, depending on what your lifestyle is like. I have crazy children and I have to juggle being a mom, a writer, and everything else and try to keep sane. Being an indie author is a lot of work. It's a lot of effort on your end to make a book successful. I don't have that kind of time in my life, or that kind of energy, honestly. So being a trad author is a much better avenue for me and my situation. And if that is the only way that I can publish, but publishing will not give me the opportunities, then it's, you know, I'm losing out. And that's the purpose of RWA to sort of bridge those gaps. But I don't think we're exactly where we need to be yet. So we're still working on it. Will: Yeah, definitely. Jeff: We very much appreciate your efforts towards that, for sure. Will: Now, the Romance Writers of America National Conference is going to be in NYC this summer. LaQuette: Absolutely. Will: And I expect you're going to be there. LaQuette: Oh, yeah. I wouldn't miss it for the world. Will: Yeah, we're actually making a trip for the first time this year as well. LaQuette: Yay. Will: So hopefully we will... I know it's gonna be crazy busy. But hopefully, we're gonna get a chance to say hi in person. LaQuette: It is. Absolutely. Jeff: For sure. Now, we talked about "Harlem Heat." You mentioned a couple other things. What is on your docket for the rest of this year for releases? LaQuette: I don't think I have any other releases this year because I'm writing. So I've been very blessed in that I have landed these two major contracts with Sourcebooks and with Dreamspinner, both for series. So I'm halfway through Source's books. And I need to start on Dreamspinner's toward the end of the year. So there won't be any more releases from me. I mean, if I get a moment where I'm, you know, feeling really creative, I might try to get a novella together. But I'm not making any promises. Jeff: All right, so we'll look for a lot more in 2020, for sure. LaQuette: Yeah, 2020 is definitely...the first book for Source comes out in 2020. I don't have a release date yet. I have delivery dates for Dreamspinner, but I don't have release dates yet. So I'm thinking probably sometime toward the end of 2020, possibly, or maybe the beginning of 2021. Jeff: All right. Well, when "Harlem Heat" comes out, you definitely have an invitation to come back and talk, for sure. LaQuette: Oh, yay. Thank you. Jeff: Now what's the best way for everybody to keep up with you online? LaQuette: Oh, so you can find me on Facebook at, you know, my Facebook page, LaQuettetheAuthor. You can find me on Twitter @LaQuetteWrites, or you can find me on Instagram at la_quette, or you can email me at laquette@laquette.com, or you can go to my website laquette.com. Will: Fantastic. Jeff: She's well branded, and everything is the same. Will: Most definitely. Well, LaQuette, it was a genuine honor to have you on the show today. LaQuette: Oh, thank you. Will: We're so glad that you could take some time out of your extremely busy schedule that you can come talk to us. LaQuette: Thank you for having me. I mean, I was so excited and a little bit nervous also, to come on and talk to you guys because I've seen the show before. And I'm like, "Yay, I get to go hang out with them. I feel special." Will: Well, it is a genuine pleasure. We're so glad that you came. LaQuette: Thank you so very much for having me.

In this episode, I talk to Alexsander Larsen, the COO of Axie Infinity about the background to and future of the breeding-and-battling blockchain game, which is a great example of technological expertise and community focus. Topics covered include: How Alexsander got into blockchain games and connected with Axie Infinity’s founders (Trung and Jeff) How the game was influenced by CryptoKitties, notably in terms of creating item value Axie Infinity’s recent Land sale and the vision for the Lunacia open world in future years Funding and dealing with the CryptoWinter The road to mainstream adoption of blockchain games Axie Infinity’s goal to move from an Ethereum and Metamask-gated game to a more open meta-chain experience And how the blockchain gaming sector is likely to fare in 2019 Episode links: Axie Infinity website Alexsander’s Twitter Jon’s Twitter BCG on YouTube You can also check out the video version of this podcast on YouTube You can support this show by donating: ETH: 0xa2F7899ca1Bf8e602c09F1C70671926a967515cD

0:00 - Hello 2:00 - "How to Train Your Dragon: The Hidden World" review 10:30 - "Fighting With My Family" review 16:00 - "High Flying Bird" review 20:30 - Jeff finally saw "Hedwig and the Angry Inch" 27:35 - DVDs and giveaways 29:05 - We watched the Oscars 38:15 - Recap and good day REVIEWS (Eric, Jeff): How to Train Your Dragon: The Hidden World: B- B- Fighting With My Family: B- B High Flying Bird: B A-

It’s time for Toby Mathis and Jeff Webb of Anderson Advisors to answer your questions about taxes, the IRS, and much more. Do you have a tax question for them? Submit it to Webinar@andersonadvisors.com. Highlights/Topics: What is Nexus? Why do I care? Nexus is a state’s right to tax your income; different types (tax and physical), state laws, and throwback rule - how they affect you Does IRS reimburse me for corporate expenses? Misconception about reimbursement from the client’s company or IRS; IRS doesn’t give you money, but let’s you write it off How do I qualify for a real estate professional status? Requires 750 hours as #1 use of personal professional time; know importance of passive activity loss and logging time What are self-dealing rules for non-profits, IRAs, QRPs? Particular entities can’t interact with a disqualified person - can’t sell them anything; but self-dealing exceptions exist Am I dealer or investor? What’s the difference? Investor is passively involved, dealer is actively buying/selling real estate; can depend on the intent and timeframe Why set up an LLC that does flipping as a C or S Corp instead of a partnership? Because it’s taxed as ordinary income and subject to self-employment tax What is UBIT? Unrelated business income tax is when a plan/non-profit isn’t doing what it’s set up to do; can have passive activity until it competes with active businesses I hold rental property in a self-directed IRA. What can I do? There’s things you can/can’t do, especially add value to a property, so find a property manager and IRA custodian My wife’s previous employer’s stock options were exercised and have peaked. If we cash in, what’ll be the tax consequences/burden? Long-term capital gain and opportunity zone I’m helping a friend with a crowdfunding project. What are tax consequences with no deductions? Does he pay tax on donated money? No tax for less than $15,000 per donor How to aggregate all properties? Disadvantages? Election form that your print with your tax return to identify properties; doesn’t free up large losses tied up If real estate investing part time, are you considered a part-time investor? You’d be a part-time investor, not real estate professional; determining factor is to document time How do I get the 501(c)(3) tax-exempt? Use the 1023 application How do you create an LLC in an IRA? IRA custodian enters into a contract with a company to create an LLC, or set up a 401(k) to roll the IRA into it without a custodian Investing in LLC for holding rental property. How do you avail to a 1031 exchange? Need a 1031 exchange facilitator and LLC must buy or sell the next property within 180 days If I receive social security benefits at 62 and not currently employed, but do receive interest income. Will it affect my SS benefits? Can be isolated into its own taxable entity My wife and I are the only shareholders and both take a ⅓ salary. Is that the right amount? You should take a ⅓ of the net profit as salary instead How do you put an LLC on hold? Do nothing with it or pay the state; file non-activity return Will real estate holding LLC taxes partnership qualify for 20% pass-through deduction? Yes, if not triple net property For all questions/answers discussed, sign up to be a Platinum member to view the replay! Resources Anderson Advisors Tax and Asset Prevention Event Toby Mathis Anderson Advisors U.S. Supreme Court Reverses Long Standing Law On Collection Of Sales Taxes Northwest Energetic Services LLC vs. California Franchise Tax Board Throwback Rule SALT Limit After 24 years, wealthy inventor gets his day in tax court – and wins 10 Tax Deductions That Will Disappear Next Year Passive Activity Losses - Real Estate Tax Tips Real Estate Professional Status - Becoming More Important - Very Hard To Prove Acts of self-dealing by private foundation Unrelated Business Income Tax Opportunity Zones Frequently Asked Questions About Form 1099-INT | Internal Revenue Service Exemption Requirements - 501(c)(3) Organizations Form 1023 Taxbot MileIQ Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, Provision 11 011 Section 199A - Qualified Business Income Deduction FAQs   Full Episode Transcript Toby: Alright, welcome to Tax Tuesday, this is Toby Mathis joined by our tax manager Jeff Webb. Jeff: How do you do? Toby: We're going to get jumping on here. We're just going to jump right in. no time like the present to just get business done. So first off, happy Tuesday. Second off, let's jump into a bunch of questions that are giving us a steady feed from folks even before we got started. I'm sure I'll be more happy than to answer your questions. I also got emails in from folks that I may be trying to make sure I answer all of those and we'll just make sure that we're getting through each and every question to the extent humanly possible within this hour. So the first one is, what is Nexus and why do I care. Second one is going to be, does the IRS reimburse me for my corporate expenses. Third one is, how do I qualify for real estate professionals, technically real estate professional status. What are self doing rules for nonprofits in QRPs. I'm going to throw in IRAs in there as well. Am I a dealer or an investor, what difference does it make. Those are the ones that we're going to hit one after the other in succession. I'm making sure that we're getting through these. So the first one is, what is nexus and why do I care. Jeff, do you want to hit tax nexus because there's different types of nexus. There's physical presence for lawsuits and there's tax nexus for taxation. I'm going to have Jeff hit the tax and then I'll touch base on the physical nexus. Jeff: So when we're talking about tax nexus what we're primarily talking about is a state's right to tax you on your income. For example, you may live in Nevada, have a rental property in California. California has a right to tax any income on that property because you're doing business within California. There are different roles, there have been numerous cases on nexus. Toby: Most recently, our Supreme Court reversed a physical presence test that the error that Amazon, everybody that was an online retailer use to avoid state sales tax and that was just changed. Jeff: Yeah, on that one in particular the Supreme Court as Toby said, gave the states the right to tax online sales in their states. The thing is, the states now have to write tax walls to accomplish this. Most of the states don't have anything that accomplishes this. Toby: A lot of times, ignorance is bliss. People would avoid sales tax like for example, I live in Washington, Florida, Oregon and avoid the sales tax and they ignored Washington's use tax. A lot of states have this. You don't pay sales tax and you go someplace where there is no sales tax, you still owe sales tax on it but they call it use tax because you brought the physical item into your state and you never paid sales tax on it. So then they would say, "Aha." And the really interesting thing – there were actually some interesting cases that were popping up from the nexus, ones that came out of Washington, was Northwest Energetic Services too and that was a case in California where they tried to tax an organization that was registered to do business there that didn't actually do any business in California but they wanted to tax its worldwide revenue. The franchise tax board of the board of equalization lost that one and they had a few others but what you'll find is that this is a continuously active in generating area of tax law and we tend to fall into the category of ask for forgiveness not for permission all the time because if you ask a state whether you should be paying tax, they will gladly say yes even if it's not a legitimate tax. They'll tell you that you have to pay it even though it's made to be unconstitutional, unlawful, you fill in the blank. Even if you don't owe it, they'll oftentimes just answer, "Yes, of course you should." They can't actually be giving you any tax advice anyway so it's the wrong party to be asking. I'm sure Jeff you get to deal with that more than I do. Jeff: Yeah, in a state like California, it used to be an old joke for the CPA's that you could be flying over the state of California, make enough business phone call and California would want to so you have nexus and we can now tax you. They're also a state that's very difficult to leave if you're a resident. We had a case where somebody, NBA player for the Sacramento Kings was traded to Seattle Sonics and moved there. Toby: Yeah, now the Oklahoma City Thunder, I was there when they move, horrible. Jeff: The state of California wanted to say, "No, you're still resident of California, we're still going to be taxing you because you got friends here and you have club ownership, some relationships. California in particular is very tenacious with Nexus. Toby: Yeah, so you're going to see things evolving over the next few years since the Supreme Court decision was literally this last, I think it was just months ago or end of the year last year. You're going to see the states trying to fill in the blanks. So you have some states for example in drop shipping, Pennsylvania would tax you if you drop ship out of their state where it used to not be, other states did before. We were talking earlier before the webinar, Jeff and I were talking about what is like a claw back. Jeff: Yeah, it's called a throwback rule that says if your sales into a state that doesn't have taxes then where it got shipped from can tax instead. Toby: Somebody's asked, what are the worst three states for nexus. It really depends on what you're doing, but I would say just off the top of my head probably New York, Connecticut and California. They're pretty heinous. Look at the states that just filed a lawsuit against the federal government under the SALT limitation which is the State and Local Tax Limitation. You'll see I think there was four states Maryland was one of them, where they try to hit you with so many different taxes. It's not just business, it's on your personal as well. It's just for nexus, for a person, it's really easy to figure out, "Hey, where do you live?" Because when I say it's easy, it can be difficult if you have two residences that you spend time with equally. They're going to add up things like how much utility you use, where your driver's license is. Where your kids go to school, where your vehicles are registered, you're going to look at those types of things. There's Hyatt v. Commissioner Case or what was it, Hyatt versus board of equalization I think is actually what it was. Where a gentleman moved to Nevada and the California franchise tax board sent agents to Nevada they climbed to his garage and break into his apartment to prove that he was actually residing more in California than he was in Nevada because his tax bill would've been so great and when they got caught, they said they're immune. Our Supreme Court and Scully I remember the opinion was scathing on them saying, "No, you're immune in your jurisdiction. When you cross the state lines, don't expect any immunity." They just harassed that poor guy. They were climbing around his house. So let's just narrow it down though. You asked a question what is nexus. There's two sides, there's tax nexus and then there's physical nexus. In the physical nexus again where you reside, it's pretty easy. If you live there, then you have a physical nexus in that state, it's where you have a house. In the business it's no different. In a business, you have to decide where it's going to have its main presence and the courts have held having a bare office and nothing more isn't going to be sufficient. You actually have to do something there. That's when you actually have to have a physical office space. We use virtual office where it's doing more than just maintaining a registered agent. There we're actually giving conference facilities, phone answering, we'll do document prep and things like that for the governance of the company so the company can actually have a physical presence. The reason that you do that is to make sure it has a home. So if somebody's coming after one of its shareholders or members, one of its owners that it does not draw that entity into the state where they're located. So, if I have owners in a company and I have my company set up in Wyoming and they sue me in Nevada and they sue somebody else in Texas and somebody else in Florida, you don't have a choice between the Nevada, Texas and Florida where the shareholder or where the members of the LLC are located, they would actually have to go to Wyoming where the actual entity is located. That's what you're trying to do. So if Anderson does my meeting notes, that's why that's important. We're not talking about Canadian, US the nexus pass. I could tell you a fun one. We had a client that just got nailed by California. It's actually under the FBAR which is Foreign Bank Account Regulations. They had some interest on a bank account that was there for a condo they had in Whistler and they sold the condo in Whistler and they didn't report, I think it was like $70 or $76 worth of interest. Jeff do you know these off the top of your head? How much the penalty is? Jeff: No. Toby: If the IRS catches you, it's 50% of the account balance per year. But if you go under amnesty which they have taken an amnesty was a $38,000 fine which they paid for that $76. Canada is still offshore. Anyway, so what is nexus and why do I care. It gets a little convoluted but the reason you care is you don't want to draw your company into your state, you want to make it very difficult for somebody to get a hold of your assets if they're coming after you. From a tax standpoint, it matters because we want to keep our business activities to the extent possible in the lowest taxing jurisdiction as humanly possible. So that's that one. Jeff this is one of your favorites, I know. Does the IRS reimburse me for my corporate expenses? Jeff: Of course they do. IRS is really giving out money. We get this question more often than you would think. I think it's a misconception that clients are being told that their companies can reimburse them for certain expenses which will reduce our taxes and sometimes the clients are hearing IRS is going to reimburse us. The only time you get back money from IRS is if you pay money into IRS for taxes and you don't owe them any tax or maybe overpaid them. Toby: Yeah. IRS is a policing agency. Your taxes when you pay it, they don't even go to the IRS, it goes to the US treasury. So the IRS is merely, pay my boss, is all they are. So they don't give any money out whatsoever so the IRS does not reimburse you for your corporate expenses. What the IRS does is it enforced the laws which is the United States code and issues regulations interpreting that code and is basically the enforcement arm for the US department of treasury. What ends up happening for corporation is they're allowed to reimburse shareholders many expenses that are not included on the shareholder's personal tax returns. So it sometimes seems like they're giving you money when in all reality, they're allowing you to not pay tax on your expenses which is always the battle because there's lots of rules out there that say things are not deductible. Nothing more telling them what we just had happened in this tax change where they eliminated all miscellaneous itemized deductions. All of them are gone in case you've been sleeping. In 2018, you do not get to write them off anymore. Jeff: Now that's your union dues, your tax preparation fees. Toby: Any unreimbursed business expense if you're a teacher and you're providing stuff for your classroom, you don't get to write it off. Jeff: If you're paying substantial amounts to your broker for advisory fees. Toby: That's a huge one. We're going to see that one come back and bite people in their touché. Jeff: That's no longer deductible. Toby: So it's horrible. So no, the IRS does not reimburse you for your corporate expenses. Your corporation reimburses you for your corporate expenses and the IRS lets you write it off. How do I qualify for real estate professional status. Jeff do you want to play with this one or do you want me to handle it? Jeff: I'll do a little and then you can correct me. So real estate professional has a hours commitment. I believe it's 750 hours a year. Toby: So it's a minimum of 750 hours. There's a second part to that too, you know that. Jeff: And the 750 hours can be earned by you or your spouse. What's your second one? Toby: The second one is it has to be the number one use of your personal professional time. Jeff: Oh, correct. Toby: The way I always explain this is if you did 1001 hours doing bicycle repair and you did 1000 hours of real estate, you do not qualify as a real estate professional. But if it's reversed and you did 1000 hours of bicycle repair you did 1001 hours of real estate activities, then you do. And the reason this is important is because ordinarily, your real estate expenses are offset your real estate income and you can only take losses from real estate. In other words, the excess depreciation, or repairs, or whatever, your losses are limited to $3000 a year against your other active income. So that's called the passive activity loss rule. Jeff: $25,000. Toby: If you materially participate and then you have $100,000 to $150,000 scale up. There's some little nuances which don't bring your head with. At the end of the day, there are restrictions on taking passive activity loss. Real estate professional status removes that restriction. The other thing that's really important about real estate professional status is it is per property. So if you have three properties, you'd have to meet it for each of the three unless you elect to aggregate all your properties on your tax return. We have seen this missed by accountants who don't do real estate. They don't aggregate and there are actually cases on the book where people had to fight and they literally had tons of properties they easily met the 750 if you aggregate it but their accountants miss the aggregation election. Jeff: And the sum of 750 hours is not just for your rental properties. Toby: Any real estate. Jeff: Any real estate activity. Toby: Yeah. Jeff was actually right when he said your spouse could qualify, either you or your spouse if you're filing jointly. Jeff: So if you have a full time job and you're getting a W2, I can guarantee you that you will not legally qualify. Under audit, you're going to lose. However, if you have a full time job and your wife does not or your husband does not, they can qualify to be that real estate professional. Toby: We had a fun one. A good friend of ours and a colleague in Georgia was making somewhere between $2 million and $3 million a year in his professional practice. His wife qualified as a real estate professional and he quite literally bought enough commercial property and did something called cost segregation where you're rapidly depreciating it where he generated enough loss off the real estate to offset his income. The IRS audited it, he is self represented because he knew the rule. It withheld, he stood up. His wife just did their real estate activities and he did their practice and at the end of the day, she met the requirement for the real estate professional status and the rule is pretty straightforward. IRS didn’t like the outcome but that's not their job. So they picked a fight and lost the audit which is not uncommon. All right, so how do I qualify for a real estate professional. Keep a log of your time and make sure that you're aggregating all of your real estate activities. Even if it's for a closely held company, it's still going to match, it's still going to work. Next one, what are the self dealing rules for nonprofits in QRPs. I'm going to add in there IRAs as well since when we talk about a qualified retirement plan, we're really talking about 401K and 401A. This is going to dovetail in with one of our other questions that came in off the internet as well. But here's how it works. If you are in a particular type of entity where it says you cannot interact and engage in business with a disqualified person, you could not sell them a $1 million building for $1. It is an absolute prohibition against self dealing. The most important first step is determining whether or not you're within one of those rules. Then if you are, then you look and say are there any exceptions to that rule. So for nonprofits, nonprofits are going to fall into broad categories foundations, private foundations are one. These are nonprofits that aggregate money and give money to other nonprofits, they don't do anything. And in that one, you have an absolute bar from self dealing. The next one is an operating nonprofit that is doing something and in that case, you just have to use arm's length transactions. So we look at that, that's our step number one. So let's go back to the first one, private foundations then you look and say, are there any exceptions. The only exception is reasonable compensation, it can always be reasonably compensated. But other than that, no more transactions. So for nonprofits 501(c)(3) you can enter into transactions as long as it's an operating nonprofit. It can give you benefits, it can pay you and it can engage in sales and other transactions between you and the agencies so long as they are arm's length. And the way you make sure it is arm's length is you have non-interested parties looking at it saying, "Hey, that looks okay to me." somebody who doesn't have a dog in the fight. Now we go to QRPs and IRAs. In either one of those, you have absolute prohibitions against self dealing with disqualified parties and disqualified parties are lineal descendants which would be grandparents, children and their spouses, great children and their spouses. It does not include your siblings. So what's interesting is you could actually engage in transactions with your IRA for example, loan money to your brother. You cannot loan money to your mother. You could not loan money to your kids or your grandkids, you could not do a second on their house, you could not do anything between the company. You could not buy a house from them. That is an absolute bar that's called, disqualified party. Jeff: The way I kind of look at it as to whether you may be violating self dealing rules is, are you benefitting from a transaction between you and the nonprofit or the QRP or the IRA. That's really what they're out to prevent. And unfortunately the rules are pretty severe for violations of the self dealing. Toby: If you self-deal, you're just going to disqualify your IRA. If you're using a QRP and you're using a 401K, then we have different rules, and in that particular case, it would just disqualify the money that you actually were utilizing. Their far more lenient. Jeff: I had a client who had a QRP, it was actually defined benefit plan, who had a required minimum distribution to make and the plan was not funded at the time. The client had to make a loan to the QRP, which is a self-dealing but unfortunately there's an exception for that that one was quickly repaid. There was no profit or interest earned on it. Toby: Was it within the 60 days? Jeff: I believe it was within 60 days. Toby: There's some more fun stuff. Then we go into the 401Ks and this is where you get into people acting on behalf of the company. I know that there were some questions, that were already posed in the chat feature here. You're not supposed to be getting any personal benefit or using those funds at all when you have an IRA or a 401K. In an IRA, it's much more severe because you have a custodian. So if a renter for example is paying you money and they pay it to you individually, technically you have a violation of the self dealing rules because you just received money. Even if you go ahead and put it right back in the IRA, you're going to have an issue because technically you weren't supposed to receive the money, the custodian was supposed to be receiving the money. So you should actually have rental money going to your custodian if you’re using an IRA. If you’re using a 401K or 401A, which the profit sharing plan or 401K, then you are the trustee and you're able to accept the money and endorse it right into the account and make sure that the money goes to the right place. IRA's are a little more difficult. To get around this, a lot of people with IRA's will set up an LLC which you can be the manager of. Actually, the IRA is technically the member— you're in non compensated role and we have to make sure that the LLC agreement says that if we drafted it, then we make sure that we're putting in the non-prohibitionals. You cannot personally benefit from these activities. It has to all go back to the retirement plan. People will do the LLC and they will be all right, now I can go ahead and accept the funds through the LLC, that's how they do with an IRA. If you're doing with the 401K, we're going to suggest that you still set up an LLC anytime you have real estate, just because we don't want the liability to flow through to you. But there, now, you don't need the custodian. You could technically do it inside the 401K directly though you should still have the LLC and it's the same scenario where you're able to accept the proceeds. That's not going to be a technical violation because you're acting on behalf of the plan. And that is not a violation of the self dealing rules. So the biggest takeaway from all this, is that you can act on behalf of the plan. The second a just qualified person starts to get personal benefit, you have violated the rules and if it's an IRA, the whole thing is violating—considered a taxable event, which should be that 10% penalty plus income tax on it for the entire amount if it's at 401K or 401A, it would just be the portion that you violated. We tend to be very bullish on using 401Ks and 401A's, profit sharing plans around here also known as QRP. And this is why, because they're far more forgiving and they have a less moving pieces. I hope that explains that. We're going to have—I know there's a couple more questions that are in here, that are going to be relevant to this section as well. Let me jump on to something. The questions, this is something you can ask detailed questions via our email. I will answer them, Jeff or Tony, whoever's from the tax department here. We will answer these on the tax Tuesday. We will also more likely be responding back out to you directly as well because we want to make sure you get your questions answered, but just jot down that address, webinar@andersonadvisors.com and feel free to shoot them in. Since our last one, Tax Tuesday, we had a couple of questions and I want to go through these. Number one was from Karen out of Alaska, "I have a revocable trust in Alaska that owns and sells real property, does the trust to pay income taxes on the profit or does the profit end up on my personal tax return? Is it taxed at the same rate as everything else? So the most important word she used in her question was revocable, because trust come in two flavors, revocable are irrevocable. If they're irrevocable, then we have two choices, we don't have to worry about the irrevocable.. Since it's revocable, it's a grand tour trust is ignored, it's you, for tax purposes until your dead. So you're good, sorry, sometimes I'm blunt. So if you're buying and selling real estate, real property it's taxed no differently than if you're on the real property. Now here's the rub, it also gives you know asset protection. So revocable trust is giving you know asset protection with that real property, so I would really strongly suggest that the revocable trust actually be the owner of an LLC that is buying and selling the real estate and depending on how quickly you are turning this, will depend on whether that say, S or a C-Corp., if it's a flip versus if it is a long-term holds, then we just put it as an LLC. It would either be disregarded or taxed as a partnership. We want it to flow under our return. Those are kind of our choices. There was a question, I don't know if I got to that. I'm going to skip back to our slides. There's something about—Am I a dealer or an investor? So I want to make sure that I'm getting this one right here. Because this is relevant to one of these questions. A dealer and an investor is something that we talk about in real estate, you want to hit on this? Jeff: No, you're doing fine. Toby: An investor is someone who's passively involved, a dealer is somebody who is actively buying and selling real estate. So if you buy real estate with the intent to hold it for its long term appreciation cash flow, then you are an investor. If you buy real estate with the intent to sell it, then you are a dealer. The easiest way to conceptualize this is if I am an investor, I am passive. If I am a dealer, then I am a supermarket with inventory. And I'm putting my real estate on a shelf and it's constantly for sale. Just like at your grocery store, it may take a couple years for something to sell. I'm just imagining the items that are on the shelf. Jeff: Your durable goods. Toby: Right, so you sell something, I used to do liquidation. We would grab all the expired items we would sell them but let's say, it doesn't matter how long you held them. A lot of people think, well if I held it over a year, I can't be a dealer. That's not the case, we actually have cases on the book where they held it over 10 years. What matters is what your intent was when you buy it. And the difference it makes is active income versus passive income. The difference is an investor can 1031 exchange and defer all other taxes. An investor can get long-term capital gains, an investor can do installment sales, an investor can spread out the tax liability over a long period of time. Whereas a dealer is active. It's subject to social security taxes, it's taxable immediately even if you don't receive the money. It is active ordinary income, it's no difference than I just sold that box of Cheerios on the shelf that I've been waiting to sell. It makes a huge difference. Dealer activity we're going to isolate inside of an S-Corp or a C-Corp. Investor activity, we're going to make sure it flows on your personal return either by using a disregarded LLC or a partnership LLC, one of the two. Jeff: Intent has really made a difference in a couple of cases. One, where somebody bought a property that they go allow their child to live in, something end up happening then they sold it after a short time. They were considered to be an investor not a dealer. Toby: It doesn't even matter. It does not matter whether you ever rented it, there's plenty of cases where somebody tried to rent it and they were going to use it as a long term hold and then things change and they sold it. Just know that if you buy or sell within a year, the presumption is going to be that you're a dealer. If you hold for over a year, the presumption is going to be that you're an investor but it's not a guarantee. We're going to get back to these questions. How does Flip LLC income flow into S-Corp and then what will be distributions of the seller? So, we talked a little bit about this last week but I'm going to go and we're going to hit this. When you set up an LLC, it doesn't exist to the IRS. So when you say how does the Flip LLC flow into S-Corp, it doesn't. A Flip LLC is an S-Corp if you elect to have it be treated that way with the IRS. The income is just going into an S-Corp. Then you have to decide what your salary will be because if you know anything about an escort S-Corp, you want to make sure you pay yourself a reasonable salary if it's making money. The rule of thumb to use is, one third of your net income should be paid out as salary. That's just a rule of thumb but it's all in all reality the IRS has this funky test where you're supposed to say, "Hey, what would it be? What could it be paid?" they never tell us exactly. So I'll just say this, pay a third, don't worry about it. If you get too much money, if you start making over $300,000, then we're going to have a chat but where you're going to be on our radar anyway, we're going to be making sure you're paying a reasonable salary anyway. The reason this is important is because the salary is subject to old age death and survivors in Medicare also known as FICA or social security and the distributions are not. So what you would do is you'd be cutting your social security tax by about two thirds if you did it that way. I hope that explains it. So it makes its money and it pays it out. We do need to make sure that if you're flipping, that the money goes into the LLC. Jeff: A quick comment on distributions on an S-Corporation. Distributions are typically the money that's already been taxed are in you're just pulling the cash out. What you don't want to do is go out and get a bank loan in S-Corporation and take distributions from that for several reasons. One, you don't have basis in those distributions. Two, it gets into the whole finance distribution issues and things of that nature. So you really only want to be pulling money out of the company that you’ve already been taxed on. Toby: Fair enough and then if you don't pull any money out of an LLC that's taxed as an S-Corp, you don't technically have to pay yourself a salary. You just let it sit in there and keep growing which your accountant is not going to tell you because they don't know that. The reason I know that is because I have spoken to probably 100 accountants that missed that one. It says, why do you want the LLC that does flipping set up as an S-Corp or C-Corp instead of a partnership? Mark, we were just talking about that because it's taxed as ordinary income as subject to self employment tax. So the reason we want that in an SRC is so that you do not get classified as a dealer because then all of your real estate is dealer real estate and you could lose all your long-term capital gains, you to lose your 1031, you could lose your installment sale. So we want it to be a separate taxpayer from you so the IRS notes clearly who the investor is and who the dealers is and then you can reduce the amount of tax hit by using the S-Corp that will reduce your self-employment tax significantly, if you add a 401K to it, you could eliminate your tax or defer it out into the future. If you use a C-Corp, then depending on what your expenses are, we can also eliminate all your tax or at least reduce it significantly. So that's why we use that. All right, we have a whole bunch of questions to go through so I'll go through this. What is UBIT and UBITA. UBIT is unrelated business income tax and the easiest way to understand this is when you have a tax deferred entity or tax, it's not actually a tax rates, it can be tax rate if it's a Roth but when you have a qualified plan or a nonprofit and it is not doing what it's set up to do, so let's say in an IRA or a 401K or a 401A, or a nonprofit, they're all set up to do certain things. They're allowed to have a passive activity which is rents, royalties, dividends, interest, even capital gains and it can have those and you don’t have to worry about it at all. But once it starts competing with other businesses, active businesses, now you have an issue and that's what's called—let's say that you have these ordinary businesses. Then they would be taxed, generally speaking it's going to be the highest rate at 37% I believe is what it's going to be as kind of a disincentive to engage in traditional businesses inside those exempt organizations. The easiest way to look at this, let's say you set up an IRA and it runs a mini mart, you're going to pay tax on those profits just like anybody else would. The exception is if that IRA owns a corporation that does not pay out the profits directly. It would have to own C-Corp and then it would only receive dividends and then those are considered passive. So it gets funny and a little bit difficult. The other one is let's say you set up a nonprofit, that's for—what's a good one? Helping Vet and then it sets up a pizza business on the side and starts competing, it buys a bunch a Domino's franchises. It's going to pay tax on the Domino's franchise. It doesn't get a big huge competitive advantage selling pizzas because it's a nonprofit. It would have to be for its charitable purpose and that's UBIT. Jeff: One place we see a lot is like hospitals, they're usually tax exempt but they may have a gift shop which they have to pay the business income tax on because it's not directly supporting them but it is a business. Toby: But you're allowed to do that for like what is it, Salvation Army and some these other thrift stores. They'll let you have one for a church and whatnot. If it's ancillary, if it's completely ancillary and it's just being used like thrift stores I think are one of the few exceptions, gift shop absolutely, you're head to head. Here's another one and I think that this may be what Diane was looking at, it's debt financed income. What that is, is if I'm using the leverage, then there's an exception for IRA's where it cannot use loans to generate income, it's considered an unrelated debt financed income. It will be taxable That is not the case for 401Ks and for 401As, which is what—if you've ever been to one of our events, you hear us railing on the idea that if you are going to finance real estate, real estate is considered passive and it's considered okay not UBIT. The only way you make it taxable is if you leverage it inside of an IRA, so don't do that. If you're going to leverage it, make sure your rolling that IRA into a 401K or profit sharing plan which is the 401A. So there, that's my two cents. I figure that maybe they had a funky—UBITA, I have no idea what that is, but it looks neat. I think they were probably referring to get financed income, since those things usually go side by side. All right, we have a ton of questions that have been posed and this is so much fun, we have like literally a jillion questions, if that's the number. All right, so here's the first one, if I cash out refinance or borrow an equity loan from my primary residence, use the money to do private lending by rental property, can I deduct the interest expense as an investment expense beyond $750,000 amount? They're throwing some things in here. This is actually a really long question, I'm giving you the thumbnail sketch of it. Hey guys email those types of questions in, because nobody's going to be out to follow this, but here's what here's what they're saying, we now have a restriction on your mortgage interest, it's $750,000. If you borrow on your house, and by the way it's $750,000 now, if you had a loan on it up to $1 million, you're grandfathered in, if those prior to what was it, 12/15/2017, you're good or if you got your long before April 15th and you already started the process before December 15, don't you make my head hurt. Long and short of it is, let's say $750,000, but your house is worth $1.5 million. You borrow money out of your house. You will not be writing that off personally, you are capped at $750,000 and that's on your schedule A. Whether or not you're getting any benefit out of that is to be seen because you have your standard deduction. I imagine it's going to be above the standard deduction if you're borrowing up to $750,000. Let's just say we have our $750,000 and we borrowed an extra $500,000, it can't go on your schedule A, but it can go someplace else. The someplace else would be, for example, if I put it into my schedule E, because I'm using it to buy rental property. Then I can use the income of the rental property and I can use the interest being paid as a separate expense, it's just going on a different tax form. The other route that you can go is, if I give that $500,000 and I loan it to a corporation and the corporation re-loans, in the words the corporation is going out loaning its money out and it's reimbursing my interest, then in all reality the loan is really to the corp, and I'm not getting any tax benefit but the corporation is reducing its income by reimbursing me the right to use basically my line of credit. This is no different than if you do this with your credit card. It's reimbursing you, so you make no money on it, but you don't pay tax on it, it such a fancy work around. That's number one. Next question, I hold rental property in a self directed IRA. I do tenant screening, manage the rental, hire vendors to do the repair work and I don't physically work on the house. Good, because you can't physically work on the house, you can do everything else, you can hire, do screening. I would actually have a property manager on it. All income expenses come and goes to the same self directed IRA account, hopefully that's with the custodian or you have an LLC, disregarded to the IRA. Somebody asked this, the IRA custodian sets up the LLC, you can't do it. You shouldn't be going out and doing it yourself, paying your money, you should actually have the IRA do it to keep it clean. Is it allowed? Yes, some people say, "If only I don't work on the house myself, that's okay," and they're correct. Some people say, even screening, collecting rent is not allowed, can you please clarify? You should not receive the money, the IRA should receive the money, you can direct you to the custodian though. You can even get the check and hand it to the custodian, forward it to the custodian, whatever, as long as what you're doing is not adding value to the property. That's the big no, no. Don't go get a paint brush and start painting the house because you're increasing the value to your personal efforts. Next question, my wife's previous employer stock options were exercised and we feel have peaked, cost basis 132, market value 280, if we cash in, what will be the tax consequences and how can we reduce the tax burden? We need to pull the trigger shortly. Aziz, this is you, there's two ways you can do this. First off, you're going to end up with long term capital gains, so it's not horrible. Secondly, there's something called an opportunity zone which just enacted at the end of the year and the just published out all these zones. If you reinvest the money in a opportunity zone, you defer to the tax. In the opportunity zones, there's tons of them. It's any neighborhood that is considered—that needs public support and there's a laundry list. I would actually encourage you to go Google, opportunity zone, tax and you'll find a big old list. But the communities in your area that are typically low to moderate income house. If you took your entire amount of increase, so let's say that we have $150,000 of taxable capital gains, you could buy $150,000 of opportunity zone properties and pay zero tax. Now, the question is, what happens when I sell? So there's holding periods and the minimum holding period, I believe, is you're going to be looking at five years, where then you're going to not have to pay tax on 15%, I'm going off of memory. So you'll have to excuse me if I'm not spot on, but it's 15% then it jumps up. At 10 years, the entire $150,000 is no longer taxable. And I believe that you're not going to be paying tax on the gain in the opportunity zone, it's kind of a two pronged, are you familiar with that one, Jeff? Jeff: Somewhat, I know that you replaced the old enterprise some number of years back. Toby: Something to look at, but would be it. The last way to avoid tax is give them, before you exercise it, is give that to your non-profit, if you have one and you would get a $280,000 deduction. And then the nonprofit can sell it zero tax. You'd get a monster tax and you could have these too, you could say, "Hey, I really need to offset a bunch of the tax, so I'm going to make a contribution," it doesn't matter what your basis is, it only matters, the fair market value of those assets and if you transferred let's say $140,000, half of it, let's see transferred $140,000 worth of stock, you would get $140,000 tax deduction and it can offset your income up to 60%. In either case, if you're pretty confident that we can mitigate or eliminate that tax bill if you wanted to. If you keep it out of state, somebody says, if you keep it as state for 36 months, can it be avoided? I am helping a friend with crowdfunding project and due to medical needs, we'll need a large sum, maybe $100 million what would his tax consequences be if he has no deductions? Does he have to pay tax on donated money? Fred, generally speaking, if you're getting these little gifts, as long as they're less than $15,000 there's no tax and when I say $15,000 that's per donor. So if I do a crowdfunding and everybody gives $100, there's no tax to the recipient. So go ahead and raise them a bunch of money. Jeff: Keep in mind when you're doing this crowdfunding, if you're contributing to a crowd funding, it is a gift, it's not a donation. Toby: And it's not a tax deductible donation. In 2017, I sold a rental house and took a $40,000 note. In 2017, I received $944 in interest but have not issued a 1099-INT. I did report the amount on my personal 2017. What should my next step be? Wait until 2019 or file now. So he's the one who holds the note, he was paid interest. What do you have to say? Jeff: This is kind of a darn if you do and darn if you don't. There is a penalty for not issuing the 1099. You did the right thing by reporting the amount of interest. However, there's a penalty for not following the 1099. There's a penalty for filing them late. Toby: What's the penalty like? Jeff: I think it's $50 or $75. I think it's $50 up to $99. Toby: So what you're saying is do it next year? Jeff: I didn’t hear anything. Toby: Hey do it next year unless they start digging in. I've had that, we actually went through a super audit here once and they went through every—they let you fix it. So I just wouldn't do it. I would just do it next year and say, "Hey, oops." How to aggregate all properties. What are the disadvantages to doing. You file an aggregation election, is it a form or you just check in the box? Jeff: It's an election. It prints out a form with your tax return. It says exactly what properties or investments you're aggregating together. The only real disadvantage is. Once you aggregated these properties, let's say you have two houses and one has significant passive losses. When you become a real estate professional, those passive losses gets stuck in there. Normally they get freed up when you sell that property but once you aggregator properties, it's all considered one property. So it doesn't free up those if you have a large losses tied up, it doesn't free them up until you get rid of all your aggregated properties. Toby: Cool. Nicely put. Are the purchase and sale of mortgage notes considered real estate for real estate professional status I'm assuming. Jeff: This is my gut feeling, I would say no. it's more of a lending, more of an investment in the notes. Toby: Depends on whether you're ending up with the properties. It depends on what your intent is and if your intent is just to buy and sell mortgage notes, then you're dealing with lending. In order to be real estate, it's really got to be focused in on the purchase and sale of real estate. Jeff: So we kind of run into the same thing with construction companies and such that they meet the test for certain things but not for other test. There are some input to it so real estate broker is kind of the same thing. Toby: Here's the thing, so this is Dean. Dean, if I am in your shoes, I am documenting the time I'm spending in real estate. so even though I may be going after a note, if the reason that you're going after the note is with the intent that possibly end up with that property and you do the research and you can back it up, then you add it into the real estate column as far as your time and you aggregate all your time. The only time this is going to come up is if somebody audits you in goes through all of your records that thoroughly which is rare that that happens. But let's say that it does, then you're the one who's tracking all of your expenses and your time. Then it would be up to the IRS to sit there and say, "Hey, that was actually for the mortgage." and so the old adage is pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered. You don't take all of it but you aggregate that a little bit. Jeff: Can I bring up a pet peeve? I hear on the radio frequently about all these auditors that IRS has hired and they haven't had a real hiring since 2010. Toby: They're so toast right now. Jeff: The last big hiring they did most recently was to deal with Obamacare for that audit purposes. But really, they're dealing with almost a skeleton crew anymore. Toby: We just got proposed tax forms for 2018. We don't even know, we just had proposed regulations issued on the tax changes two weeks ago, three weeks ago. They're way behind the eight ball and sometimes we put ourselves in a disadvantage. Don't be crazy about it, but you can be pretty aggressive and especially if it's the truth. If what you're spending your time on is real estate, count it towards real estate. So if you're doing real estate investing part time, can you be considered a part time investor? Yeah, you'd be a part time investor but you wouldn't be a real estate professional. So the biggest important thing and this is for Darlene and Ken, is to document your time and if you go over 750 hours and it's more than you spend than anything else, then you're going to be a real estate professional. Otherwise, you're just an investor, unless you are buying properties to sell. So when you say investing, that means you're going to hold on to them, you're letting them depreciate a little bit but you get the cash flow. Does time spent lending money on real estate for real estate qualifiers and real estate professional. No investing, didn’t we just answer that one? It depends on your real intent of investing in the note. A lot of people are buying notes to end up with a real estate in which case then I'd say probably. Jeff: No, what if she's gap funding? Toby: If you're gap funding then I would say no, then you're lending. So you really have to take a look at the totality of the circumstances. I wish I could say yes or no. what we want is a yes and there's a way to get there. So it's making sure that you're documenting things to support your position. We could dig into that a little bit more, if you want to shoot us the email then let us dig into it. Then the next tax Tuesday, I can answer that one and Jeff can answer that one with a little bit of research behind it. Nexus question, "I'm a resident in California, I'm moving to Arizona. I plan to keep a single family rental in California. The California houses and the land trust is owned by Wyoming LLC, does California have the right to tax my pension income after I move in addition to my income in California rental." Shelly the answer is, it depends on where the rental was earned and whether you're taking out over a 10 year period then the answer is, no. and my guess is that you're going to be a big no. They will be able to tax technically the rental income that is being derived from California but for the most part, that's going to be zero. Jeff: A really important number to remember when you have a property in more than one state is 183. That's typically the number of days you need to spend in a state to be a resident in that state. Toby: "How do I get the 501(c)(3) tax exempt?" Marie, that’s the 1023 application. Yes, it's the 1023 application. So with a nonprofit, I always look at these things in threes, we file with the state which is a corporation. We document it to make sure there's no shareholders which is for private parties, and then we file with the feds and we're telling them we want to be an exempted organization and that exemption is done via 1023. So we go through that process. When we set them up, we set up about 3,000 of them successfully. "How do you create an LLC and an IRA?" Darlene and Ken, what you do is you have the IRA custodian internal contract with a company like us and we create the LLC, or we set up a 401K, roll the IRA into it and then we'd let you do it so you don't need a custodian. "Is this recorded and will a replay be sent out?" Robin, it's made available to anybody who's platinum and then I'm cutting out a bunch of the Q&As and will throw them all over the internet. The recording, yes we record them. Join platinum, it's fun. "If I sell a partial note to a family member from my QRP, is that disqualified?" it depends on the type of family members. When they're your kids, yes. If it's to a brother or sister, no. then you can do it. When you make a contribution and that's just the whole disqualified person argument we had earlier. So you can always ask again, ask the question specific to your situation, we'll give you a very specific answer. But just know that if you sell a partial note out of your QRP, it depends on the relationship of the family member. If it's lineal, you have a problem. Which means kids, parents, grandparents you have a problem. If it's horizontal, siblings, not a problem. If it's the spouses of the disqualified person, you're going to have a problem. "Investing in LLC for holding rental property, how does one avail to a 1031 exchange?" Here's how it works, so I'm not going to worry about this. The 1031 exchange, you have to have a 1031 exchange facilitator. The LLC has to buy the next property. So you sell one and buy one within 180 days and there's some other roles in there about when you identify it or you do a reverse exchange where you buy the replacement property then sell the other property within 180 days. But neither cases, in the name of the LLC, you don't have to do anything else. "I should be able to still qualify as an investor and still be active in real estate by investing more than 750 hours." yes, but in actually is a full time job. So if you have a full time job as a real estate professional, then you're good. But remember, your activity as a real estate investor has to exceed your activities of any other profit making activity. So if you work and you work 1,500 hours, even if you did 1400 hours as real estate, you are not a real estate professional, still below that 1,500. Investment in LLC for holding rental property, how does or somebody asked that. If you in invest funds to have an equity in a project, oh my god, this one's going to kill me, built by someone else, I'm trying to think what this is. So you're investing funds for a piece of an LLC in which you are passive and they are a builder, are you a dealer? So Judith, no, you are a passive investor in an active business, is what you are. I see what you're saying, what she's asking is, "Hey, I have Bob the builder come up to me and says, 'Hey, we're going to build this big apartment complex, we're going to develop and everything. You put in $100,000 everybody else puts on $100,000.'" You are passive. You are not considered the dealer. Here's a fun one, did you already read this one? Jeff: No, I haven’t read this one. Toby: Okay, I am planning to receive social security benefits at 62, and currently not employed. I do private lending to real estate investors through promissory notes. So I do receive interest income in the amount of $40,000 to $50,000. Will this affect my social security benefits? At what point to social security benefits are taxable? So Joe, the answer is that there are certain types of income that are exempt from calculations, social security, Jeff you know off the top of your head? Jeff: If you're receiving earned income and that's all social securities could ever know about, so we're talking about self employment income, W-2 wages, that's going to affect your social security benefits. Toby: But if you're just receiving interest income, is it going to affect it? Jeff: Well, here's the thing, if you're in the business of lending money, we would typically set you up as a business, either on schedule C or through an S-Corp or something. That interest you receive wouldn't be, interest income, it would be business income. You'd be able to deduct certain expenses from that income… Toby: We got to look at it, because usually you're going to want to be treated as active, in this particular case you're not going to outdo yourself. Jeff: The downside of this is, any money, any net income you have from this business of lending money is going to affect security until you're 65, or 67, full retirement age. Toby: Joe, the answer is, we may one isolated into its own taxable entity, so that it doesn't affect you. We may. Jeff: I kind of feel like this would be in a great place for an S-Corporation. It's not earning income flowing through to them. Toby: Would he have to take a salary? Jeff: Yeah there we go. Toby: I'm going to take a look. Joe, that's a great question, could you submit it to the webinars at Anderson Advisors, so we can research it. In that way we can hit it in two weeks, to get you a much more thoroughly research, because you're asking a very complicated question. That’s just not going to be at the top of our head. We're going to make sure that we don't step on a landmine. Jeff: So the answer's, maybe. Toby: My wife and I are the only shareholders and we both take a one third salary. No, you should take about one third of the net profit as salary, total between the owners. So greater than 2% shareholders or you and your spouse, so you could each take, I'll throw numbers out, let's say you made $100,000, you could each take up to $18,500. If you're under 50 and immediately dump it into a 401K and not pay any tax. So, "Hey we like that." We have a medical coding business, perfect, yeah, so that's when we want to take a look at. "This is so much fun, really appreciate it," I hope that's not sarcastic, Al. "I opened a couple of LLC, I'm going to use to purchase flipping, can I put them on hold until I do? Do I have to do tax returns?" It all depends on what you're doing with those, the answer is, yes you could put them on ice. "Thanks for the answer on UBIT." Diane, no problem. See we actually do answer questions here. "What are the legal benefits of incorporating in Puerto Rico, if any compared to Nevada?" If you live there, I think they give you 4% tax rate, but you actually have to reside there. There's legal benefits, not really any, other than the tax benefits and the fact of the matter is Puerto Rico has Spanish law, which means they could probably take your company from you. But you can still go down there and Jeff… Jeff: Well, I mean, there are certain industries that have great tax benefits pharmaceutical companies was always a big one. Some of those old laws have sunsetted but might be a good opportunity. Toby: Cool, look at all these questions. All right, some people are saying nice things, great. I like nice things better than, "You guys are jerks." In 2017, I was self employed under my LLC, I have not filed my taxes yet and not considering retirement. Would I still be able to do that? What is best options?" Casey, are you under—self employment under my LLC. So it depends on whether—it was an S-Corp. Did you file an extension because you would be able to do a retirement plan either a sub-IRA or if you already had the 401K then you can make a contribution from the company for it. It would either be a 401A or a 401K. or sub-IRA, I think those are going to be your... Jeff: And if you do extension, you have 11 days to get it done. Toby: Yeah, you have 11 days. Casey, get off your butt. All right, Brian wants advice with the start up pre revenue, he is offering 10% stock, "Not sure I want ownership that subject to capital calls, expectation, potential—is it better to take an offshore [inaudible 01:06:53] until there's more value in the company?" It really depends, so Clark, nice to see you. Awesome. I know Clark's brother very well, studs, nice family. All right, friends, if I was going to have a piece, the whole thing is, if I'm putting money into an endeavor, it's going to be, "What am I going to get out?" It would really depend on the agreement, I don't want to be subject to having to put more money in, nor do I want my interest necessarily being diluted by somebody who is. So one of the one of the ways you can do it, is sometimes do it is a convertible note where you loan the money, so you know you can at least get it back, but it's convertible into equity at the fair market value at that time. You guys can actually agreed to this ahead of time. So that if you decide you want to contribute it, you see they're doing what you want but then you convert it into equity. Otherwise it just remains a note that they pay you on. Clark, that's probably the route I would go. Jeff: But the assumption here is, this is a C-Corporation he's talking about. Toby: I don't even care… Jeff: Well if it's an S-Corporation that we wouldn’t be able to have all these secondary notes and stuff. Toby: If it's an S, I could so convert it. Jeff: Could you? Toby: Yep. Jeff: As long as it converts into the same… Toby: Yep. The risk is I don't want to have a convertible debt to anything other than an individual that would qualify for S.. Jeff: Okay. Toby: But I don't see S-Corps raising money this way. It's almost always C-Corps with partnerships. So the ones that I've been personally involved in, we did three levels of financing this exact way with Vegas Tax fund. That's the little Tony Hseih group and they dumped a bunch of money to a company called Role Tech. You can look them up online, because we exited that wanted with the sale to Brunswick. In a way they did all their money was purely—that was a C-Corp, but it was purely through convertible notes. All right, "What are the best tools you can recommend for tracking time mileage and expenses for real estate investors? My desire to be paperless and get everything out…" People use Taxbot for mileage, it's mileage IQ, MileIQ, I think it's the one that I use, but if you're tracking time, it's just using—sometimes is just using your calendar or spreadsheet. Let's see, "Is full time realtor, a real estate professional?" Chances are, you're going to aggregate and all that. "I understand and agree." I'm not sure I understand that. "I executed a 1031 exchange where trust all the owned property, sold it, and took title of the up leg property in the trust using 1031 exchange. But now I want to transfer up leg property into an LLC." Diane, there is no time restriction that you have to hold it as long as you are the one and still the end beneficiary. If you extend loan through an LLC owned by Roth IRA, they want to transfer, sell the remainder, but then season it out to a lower interest rate. Can Roth continue to receive the full payment from the borrower and the relay the portion?" Yes, as lines is non-convertible, same as you do in an S-Corp. "Is the answer the same best self administer S 401K? So what they're asking is," If you extend a loan through—we're just going to call it the Roth IRA, because the LLC looks right into it from a tax standpoint. And then you sell the remainder of that then season notes. So you start collecting and then you sell the note because it's doing really well and you say, "Hey does anybody want to pay me for this?" I know a guy that that's what he does. He puts the notes together and he sells his notes out and so he can get the money to go to another one and he aggregates them altogether, they call it flying in flocks. The lenders flock together and together they do a loan and he sells his portion. Yeah, you could sell it and then you can continue to receive it and keep a portion of it. the only issue you have is if it's a convertible note then you wouldn’t want to do a convertible note because boom, that Roth IRA depending on the type of entity if it's an S-Corp you'd kill the S-Corp's status of it. How do you put an LLC on hold? You get quite literally do nothing with it or you just pay the state and then you file a non activity return. You say it's not doing anything. So you're allowed to do that or you just do nothing. Which is what I tend to do. It just depends on your state. If there's not much penalty then I just kind of sit it and then two years later I might reactivate it. Will real estate holding LLC taxes partnership qualify for the 20% passed through deduction? Yes, it will. Here's the deal, as long as it's not triple net property. What she's asking is, "Hey, I have a whole bunch of LLCs and they all receive rental income and there's a net income amount." let's say it comes through with $50,000 there's something called a 199A deduction that was enacted by the 2017 tax cut and jobs act. And it gives you a 20% deduction off that amount or 20% of your taxable income whichever one is less/ but if you earn over a certain amount so for individuals it's over, $100,575 if it's a married couple it's $315,000 which is going to make your head hurt I'm going to suffer memory here. Then you scale up and then you have a new test it's 50% of the W2 income that's being paid on that particular busine

The FFfaceoff's Fantasy Football 2018: Biggest ADP Movers featuring players that include John Ross, Andrew Luck, DeVante Parker, Rashaad Penny, Rex Burkhead, Marquise Goodwin and so many more -- we will also hit on 2018 fantasy football rankings, deep sleepers, and busts. In addition, we will break down the latest NFL News of the week including: -49ers RB Jerick McKinnon is out until Week 1 with a knee injury -Titans TE Delanie Walker is being evaluated for a lower-body injury suffered at Thursday’s practice NFL Network’s Ian Rapoport reports Seahawks RB Rashaad Penny (finger) will undergo finger surgery and will miss 3-to-4 weeks of football activities as a result. However, Seahawks HC Pete Carroll expects RB Rashaad Penny to return for Week 1 --Penny can't pass-protect or catch with a broken finger. Penny resumed practice Friday on a limited basis. -NFL Network’s Ian Rapoport referred to Seahawks RB Chris Carson as the team’s “bell-cow” back -Ravens beat writer Jeff Zrebiec believes WR John Brown is the “standout” of training camp NY Daily News believes it “will be an upset” if Sam Darnold doesn't open 2018 as the Jets QB1 -Cowboys QB Dak Prescott told the press that he and his wide receivers are beginning to “click" -Patriots beat writer Jeff How reports RB Rex Burkhead (knee) is dealing with a "slight tear" in his knee Will any of today's NFL Rumors have a fantasy football impact? We will answer that and more on today's episode. For additional 2018 fantasy football advice and strategy, check out https://GridironExperts.com featuring their world-class staff rankings which could be found right here https://gridironexperts.com/fantasy-football-rankings. ***While you're here, please don't forget to subscribe, follow, like, comment and share this video.

The FFfaceoff's Fantasy Football 2018: Biggest ADP Movers featuring players that include John Ross, Andrew Luck, Kenny Stills, Rashaad Penny, Rex Burkhead, Dalvin Cook and so many more -- we will also hit on 2018 fantasy football rankings, deep sleepers, and busts. In addition, we will break down the latest NFL News of the week including:-49ers RB Jerick McKinnon is out until Week 1 with a knee injury-Titans TE Delanie Walker is being evaluated for a lower-body injury suffered at Thursday’s practice -Bengals beat writer Katherine Terrell reports WR John Ross is having a “good” camp-Saints WR Cameron Meredith (undisclosed)  has resumed practicingNY Daily News believes it “will be an upset” if Sam Darnold doesn't open 2018 as the Jets QB1-Cowboys QB Dak Prescott told the press that he and his wide receivers are beginning to “click"-Patriots RB Rex Burkhead is dealing with a “slight tear” in his knee-Redskins RB Samaje Perine (ankle) suffers sprained ankle and is expected to miss at least a week of football activities-Patriots beat writer Jeff How reports RB Rex Burkhead (knee) is dealing with a "slight tear" in his kneeWill any of today's NFL Rumors have a fantasy football impact? We will answer that and more on today's episode. For additional 2018 fantasy football advice and strategy, check out https://GridironExperts.com featuring their world-class staff rankings which could be found right here https://gridironexperts.com/fantasy-football-rankings.***While you're here, please don't forget to subscribe, follow, like, comment and share this video.Visit the NEW https://www.fffaceoff.com

This week's Q&A Episode features actor, comedian, and magician Chris Williams.His resume is as diverse as his performance credits. You may know him as Hoover from Silicon Valley, Krazee Eyez Killa from Curb Your Enthusiasm, or Dwight from Dodgeball. He also just happens to be related to former Miss America and actress Vanessa Williams.Regardless of where you may recognize him, after two and half decades in the industry, he has become a natural at gaining people's interest and getting noticed. In our conversation, Chris shares what he's learned about breaking the ice, making powerful impressions, how to handle rejection, and more. He also helps Johnny & AJ answer questions from our audience. “Own who you are as you enter a room, what you can contribute and what you bring to the table.” – Chris Williams CHEAT SHEETRemember! If you have a question you would like Johnny & AJ to answer you can reach them at 1-855-ART-OF-CHARM. Calling not your style? Tweet us or send a DM on Instagram to @theartofcharm. You'll learn about Chris… How his sibling rivalry inspired pride and drive to carve his own path.Why acting (and life) is like surfing - and why enjoying the wait for the perfect wave is not wasted time.How to use door frames to actually “frame” your first impression, and other techniques to make a powerful first impression learned from the auditioningWhat Toblerone chocolates and the power of acknowledgment have in common. And Chris helps Johnny & AJ tackle YOUR Questions: “What's the smoothest ice-breaking technique you can come up with? - Ben“Any good tricks for getting people to put down their phones and start talking?” - Matthew“What is the easiest way to eject out of a low-value conversation, that you realize you are not interested in talking to?” - Bruno“What are the signs to look for when someone finds a question uninteresting?” - Jeff“How do you identify if eye contact is meaningful or awkward?” - Trent There is no magical combination of words. In reality, it's taking an interest in the other person - AJ We weren't all born as confident and charismatic as Chris Williams. You'll hear in the episode, even he had to learn how to have faith in himself in his early career. From July 22 to July 28, we are hosting a 7-Day Sprint to Confidence Challenge. You can join by CLICKING HERE. You'll be surrounded by fellow confidence seekers and supported by our AoC Coaching Staff.BAKblade 2.0 – a DIY back shaver includes a curved ergonomic handle to reach all those hard-to-reach areas. Use discount code CHARM20 for 20% on all orders over $30.Art of Charm listeners can get ANY PREMIUM INDOCHINO suit for just $379 + FREE Shipping when entering “CHARM” at checkout. This is 50% off the regular price for a made-to-measure premium suit. Incredible deal for a suit that will fit you better than anything off-the-rack ever could. Resource LinksListen to other episodes in the Breaking the Ice Series:Episode 710: The Art of Breaking the IceEpisode 711: The Art of Talking to StrangersEpisode 712: The Like Switch with Dr. Jack SchaferStay connected to Chris Williams: Instagram | Twitter Keep up with The Art of CharmShare even your smallest victories with us! We love to celebrate the Art of Charm community at the end of every episode. Send us a message or tag us on your favorite social media platform - @theartofcharm on Instagram | Twitter | FacebookOther AoC Resources: The Art of Charm - 7 Day Sprint to ConfidenceThe Art of Charm ChallengeThe Art of Charm InsidersThe Art of Charm BootcampBest of The Art of Charm Podcast What do you love about Shownotes? The article-like recap? Key Questions? Quotes? Let us know what your perfect episode recap looks like here. Enjoying what you hear? Your reviews are so valuable to us and to those who haven't discovered The Art of Charm podcast yet. Click here to share your Art of Charm experience. A big thank you to Chris. We're grateful he was able to make the time to help us figure out how to break the ice and gain people's interest - which he practices daily as a working actor. AND for inspiring us to eat fermented shark while in Iceland… a memory we won't soon forget!

Job Insights #4: Apps With Productivity in Mind for Education and in the Workplace. Transcript Provided Welcome to the 4th episode of Job Insights with Serina Gilbert and Jef Thompson. We focus on Employment, Careers, enhancing opportunities and bringing you the latest innovations from across the Vocational Rehabilitation field to ensure your choices lead you down the career pathway that you want and succeed in gainful employment. From getting started with services, to assessments, Individual Plan for Employment (IPE) to gaining the skills to succeed and tools for success, Job Insights will be giving you tips and tricks to help your journey to employment and break down the barriers along the way. On this 4th episode of Job Insights Hope Paulos joins Serina Gilbert and Jeff Thompson in the studio and they talk about productivity apps and software. From the classroom to the workplace, these apps are geared towards making your daily challenges a bit more manageable, efficient and productive. Hours Tracker, Black Board, Drafts, Files, SeeingAI, Dictionary Thesaurus Pro, KNFBReader and Bookshare’s Read To Go app are all mentioned with some great discussion about how we use these apps. A great little Scan Stand named Foppidoo makes the scene and a conversation on Lift and Uber gets quite a chat as well. You can check out the Meet Me Accessibly book from Jonathan Mosen and learn about Zoom on the PC. Join the Job Insights crew and download some apps and give them a whirl. Hey, productivity rocks! We hope you enjoy this Job Insights episode and you can send your feedback and suggestions to the Job Insights team by email at JobInsights@BlindAbilities.com Follow the Job Insights team on twitter @JobInsightsVIP Job Insights is part of the Blind Abilities network. A big Thank You goes out to CheeChau for his beautiful music! Thank you for listening! You can follow us on Twitter @BlindAbilities On the web at www.BlindAbilities.com Send us an email Get the Free Blind Abilities App on the App Store.   Job Insights #4: Apps With Productivity in Mind for Education and in the Workplace. Transcript Provided [Music] Female voice: I feel like I'm getting a lot better education so yeah, I think, I think the online learning is an equalizer. Jeff: Job Insights, a podcast to help you carve out your career pathway and enhance the opportunities for gainful employment. Female Voice: But sometimes I require KNFB Reader when I have more than one page that I want to kind of read continuously. Jeff: Learn about resources for training education and employment opportunities. Female Voice: Blackboard, that is a learning management system and a lot of universities are using them as well for classes. So this particular app is available on Android, iOS, and PC, and Mac of course. Jeff: We will hear from people seeking careers, employment, from professionals in the educational field, teachers, and innovators in this ever-changing world of technology to help you navigate the employment world and give you Job Insights and enhance the opportunities to choose the career you want. Male Voice: Fopydo people sounds good and I actually at that time asked my son, and I, it was actually a play on the on Scooby-doo. Jeff: And you can find the Job Insights podcast on BlindAbilities.com, part of the Blind Abilities Network with hosts Serina Gilbert and myself Jeff Thompson, and you can contact us by email at JobInsights@BlindAbilities.com, leave us some feedback, or suggest some topics that we cover. On Twitter at Job Insights VIP, and check out the Job Insights support group on Facebook where you can learn, share, advise, and interact with the Job Insights community. [Music] Female Voice: Lift also released an update to their service dog policy saying that an allergy or fear of animals is not a valid reason to not pick up an individual with the service animal. Jeff: But hey it's a good learning tool, because it's just repetitious and pretty soon it just starts coming to you, mm-hmm, so I dug right in, when I saw they had flashcards I went Wow! [Music] Jeff: And now please welcome Serina Gilbert and Jeff Thompson with Job Insights. [Music] Jeff: Welcome to Job Insights and this week we're talking about apps, apps that you'll use in school, at the workplace, and these are productivity type of apps, and with me today of course is Serina Gilbert how are you doing? Serina: I'm good Jeff, how are you? Jeff: I'm just doing great and we got a guest today all the way from Maine. Hope Paulos, how are you Hope? Hope: I'm doing great, how are you? Jeff: I'm doing good, we're all doing good, so that's good. Today we're gonna talk about apps, you know some of these apps are mostly productivity type of things, stuff that you'll use to, you know get things done and that's, that's what we're, we're all about here on Job Insights. So Serina, last podcast you said you were holding out on us from what you're gonna tell us, is the cliffhanger over or are you gonna tell us? Serina: Oh we've got a little bit of a wait cuz we have to talk to Hope first, we have a guest. Jeff: How about you Hope, what do you got? Hope: I certainly don't have a cliffhanger. [Laughter] Serina: We set her up there Jeff! Jeff: yeah. Hope: Yeah you did! [Laughter] Jeff: So Hope, how's it going out and Maine? Hope: It's going well, the weather is nice finally, when I talked to you and Pete last time, it was March, and it was in the 20's, 20 degrees. Now we are in about the 60's, 70's, so I am absolutely loving it, birds are chirping, the guide dog is going for walks, he's enjoying it, Jeff: Is he bringing you with? Hope: Oh yeah of course! [Laughter] Jeff: That's great! Serina: But Jeff needs to know if you planted any Apple trees? Hope: No. Serina: Only PC trees? Hope: Only PC trees. [Laughter] Jeff: Oh that's the running joke isn't it? So when it comes to productivity type of apps, Hope what did you bring to the show today? Hope: Sure, so I have a couple of them. I don't use this particular one very much right now because I do work for Apple, and Apple has me on a strict schedule so I don't need this particular one, but for people who are freelancing, the name of the app is called Hours Tracker, it's a free app and basically it allows you to track your hours of course, hence the name, but it also allows you to track your earnings, and it will deduct the taxes as well. So it will tell you how much is deducting for taxes. So it's great for individuals who are freelancing. The second app that I have brought to the show is Blackboard. That is a Learning Management System and a lot of universities are using them as well for classes, so this particular app is available on Android, iOS, and PC, and Mac of course. This will allow you to do your classes online literally anywhere and actually a couple of the blindness organizations were working in tandem to get this particular app accessible. It's extremely accessible, there was only one thing that I commented on a couple weeks ago and I sent feedback in to the iOS developers and they fixed it. They're very very good about fixing issues that people might have. The other app that I brought, that I brought to the show is Learning Ally. This is an app that will allow you to download books and it's also good for individuals who are dyslexic and who have low vision because I believe it will allow you to magnify the print in the actual book so you can read along with the narrator which is quite helpful. That's more University as well, University-type app, Productivity app and of course the last app would be the Bookshare app. The Read2Go, this allows you if you have a membership to Bookshare, which I believe most students can get for free, it allows you to read the books on your phone be it Android or iOS. Jeff: Now on the Hours Tracker, is that what it's called? Hour Tracker? Hope: Hours Tracker yeah. Jeff: Hours Tracker. So when you're doing the setup, your presets, do you put in your wage, and then it just calculates it and are you able to output that anywhere, or is it just something you read? Hope: Absolutely, so this particular program allows you to put in the wage, and it allows you to put in whether or not taxes are withheld, so technically even if you were, you know not freelancing, if you working a job as an employee, a W2, you could use it as well. Basically it allows you to put in your breaks and your lunches and things like that, and it lets you know when to go on the break, and when to go to lunch, and when to clock out, and when to clock in. [Music] App Voice: Sample Job, 0.05H today, 0H button, clock out now or long-press for extras menu, button, next clock out now, button, cause now, button, break now button, break now, sample job 0 H on break 8:10 a.m., 0.02H button, end break or long press for extras menu button, end break. Hope: It also will let you know, like you can, you can set a reminder to have it automatically clock in when you get to work, and yes you can send it, I think it's a CSV file, or CV file, something like that, a database file, and it will put it in an Excel spreadsheet I think as well, so that you can show it to your employer. Jeff: That's kind of neat. Serina: That's pretty cool I like that. Hope: Yeah it's a it's a pretty neat app for sure. Jeff: Intuit the makers of QuickBooks and various tax applications has a program and it might be part of their bundle and I believe you can buy it separately, I believe it's called Self-Employed, but that sells on a monthly subscription for 7 to 8 dollars a month. Hope: Yeah this is free and I think, I'm trying to think if I paid for anything, I think I did just because I was freelancing at the time and I wanted them more, more, so it has a lite version and it has a full-featured version, but even the full-featured version wasn't some really really, you know cheap price. Jeff: A one-time fee? Hope: A one-time fee yeah. Jeff: That makes perfectly good sense, economically I can track that pretty good. [Laughter] [Music] Jeff: You can download Hours Tracker free from the App Store or the Google Play Store. Hourlys Tracker is free for up to 21 days of time entries and if you upgrade to the pro or professional, you get rid of all the ads, unlimited amount of entries that you can make, the only difference between the professional and the personal is you can have unlimited amount of jobs in the professional, and you can upgrade to the professional or the personal in the in-app option. The professional will run you $9.99 and the personal will run you $5.99. Once again, a one-time payment, I was really intrigued when I heard about Hours Tracker, I downloaded to my iPhone, and started using it right away, I named a job, I started the time, and when I was completed I stopped the time. I also had the option to input the time that I wanted it to start or input the time that I wanted to stop, otherwise you could do it in real time and that works out really nice. There's also an option that you can take notes and keep them with that job. I found that the accessibility on Hours Tracker on my iPhone was second to none, all the buttons were labeled and the intuitiveness was what I expected for when I have started logging the job, putting in the hours, getting out of the job, putting notes in, was just exactly how I expected it would work and it did work that way. Another small part of the accessibility, it lets you cancel a pop-up or dismiss the pop-up that comes up, and I really like that because if you've ever had a pop-up pop-up and not be able to get rid of it, that's not good. So after kicking around Hours Tracker on my iPhone for one job, I personally recommend this for anybody who is self-employed or someone who works on projects and just wants to have better records of the time they spend on their projects and jobs. [Music] Jeff: So on the Blackboard, I remember I have not experienced Blackboard yet, but I remember going to college and I was at the mercy of every professor that was experimenting by putting stuff on the web and accessing it through a link they give you, and if it was accessible you got lucky, so Blackboard is a collective effort to make it accessible for everyone. Hope: Absolutely, so it all depends on the type of class you're taking obviously right, if people don't know I'm going back to school to become a teacher of the blind and visually impaired and so all of the courses need to be accessible to me. So the professor's will tag their images so that I can know what's going on, their quizzes are all accessible, obviously the discussion boards are all accessible, and I use a combination of the two apps, so I use the combination of Blackboard and I use Learning ally to be able to do my classwork, and literally like I said, I can do it anywhere. With the phone if I have a Braille display and/or a Bluetooth keyboard I can do my homework on the beach or in the park you know, so literally anywhere and that's huge compared to when I was going back to school to get my undergrad degree, like you know 2009, that's when I graduated so it's, it's huge it's a huge step up. Serina: Yeah I remember using Blackboard when I was doing my master's degree which would have been gosh, probably around the same time as you are doing your undergrad, so I finished in 2010 and so, I don't know, 2007, 2008, somewhere around there's when I started it and they used Blackboard for everything. My program was pretty much 100% online, we didn't have the app back then, we just had the website, but even back then the website was pretty accessible. I rarely had any difficulties with it and I was going for the rehabilitation counseling so the professors were a little bit more cognizant of accessible media and documents and things like that. I loved using blackboard because it is easy to log on to, you know if I was on a break at work or whatever, or at home trying to get a discussion posted or something like that. Hope: Yeah it is really easy to use extremely easy to use. Jeff: Is that why you opted to do your classes online, not that you're on an island out off the shore of Maine, but..... [Laughter] Hope: Yeah I think, I think it's easier because I've done classes on site to, not having to do as my masters, but having to do with my undergrads degree. I find the digital world to be a lot more accessible, I just remember going to classes on site and didn't have a lot of input from the professor. The professor was teaching to a lecture hall full of I don't know, a hundred students, I just felt like I was kind of left out and wasn't getting all the notes that I needed to get, whereas here taking the classes online and using, again the combination of Blackboard and Learning Ally, I'm able to take the notes that I need, I'm able to contact my professors if I need to. I have peer to peer interaction as well. I feel like I'm getting a lot better education, so yeah I think, I think the online learning is an equalizer. Jeff: Mm-hmm. Hope: Of sorts. Jeff: Yeah that's great because you know everyone has to do what works for them and if you found a good way of doing it that's great, having those two apps makes it all accessible. Hope: For the most part yeah everything is accessible, even from registering for classes, I go to Missouri State University, so using Missouri State's website is accessible. It's just huge, it's what we're able to do as people who are blind and visually impaired with a digital world, it's absolutely huge. Jeff: So is that something you looked for when you were looking for an online course that they did use Blackboard? Hope: Not really, I didn't know what they used, I contacted them, I did ask them in the beginning when I was registering for the program what they used and I could have used Moodle, Moodle was another application, another learning management system that I'm familiar with and either one I would have been fine with. I looked online and and saw the collaboration between the two blindness organizations regarding Blackboard and I'm like okay this is going to be fine, this is gonna be great, I know it's gonna be accessible, I contacted my professors beforehand and gave them my accommodations and all that and said I need extra time and because it's a digital world they can input my time-and-a-half for quizzes and allow me to have that time and you know they can input that in Blackboard and all is good. I can't speak enough good things about accessibility and digital stuff. Jeff: So let's see, there's Learning Ally, we will put that in the show notes, we'll put Blackboard in the show, we'll put all these in the show notes so people can click on them and go right to the App Store or the Google Play Store and we'll have the links there, so back to the cliffhanger. [Laughter] Jeff: Hi Serina. Serina: And I thought of one like while we were sitting here, so even you'll be surprised Jeff. Jeff: Ooo. [Laughter] Serina: My absolute number one favorite app and I see it all over all of the groups like iPhone and iPad apps, and the assistive technology group, all of them, a seeing AI, I don't think it's any surprise there. That app allows me to be a lot less dependent on a human reader to just go through what's in my mailbox that I get at work. Now I can just kind of okay, yeah I need someone to finish reading that to me, or oh, this is just something that needs to go in the file, it's cut down on how much time I have to spend with somebody sitting at my desk with me going through stuff, and it's free, which is amazing to me because I remember reading gosh, I think it was like two years ago when Microsoft had their hackathon and they had released a video about seeing AI and they were showing a demo of it and I was like, well that's cool but it'll never come out and if it does it'll be super expensive. And then all of a sudden there's a link, and it's free, and it works, like amazingly and it, I can't thank Microsoft enough for that, that actually was a big surprise for me. Jeff: Yeah, you just open it up and boom, short text is reading. Serina: Yeah, from across the room right Jeff! [Laughter] Jeff: Yeah, that happened to me and, I shouldn't say it but I was that Orcam demonstration when they were having the little issues, and I was reading the wall that had their sign on it, so I was like wow, this is already talking, just out of the box, just turn it on and there it is. Male Voice: I use seeing AI all of the time to determine what's in my medicine cabinet, for documents you know I use seeing AI for short text. [Music] Female Voice: I use the document reader all the time, not gonna say it's as good as KNFB Reader because it's not. I did a test between reading my mail with it and with KNFB Reader and I found KNFB Reader to be far more stable, but I still like the app, I use it a lot, I'm glad that it's one of the tools in our toolbox. Female voice: For reading and stuff I used to go to KNFB Reader all the time but it just seems like Prizmo go and seeing AI is so much easier that I tend to go to them more. Male Voice: Seeing AI is my main go-to app and I use that, the short text channel mostly if I can't identify an item with that I will switch to the product channel if it has a barcode. A lot of the apps like [Inaudible] and Aipoly Vision and [inaudible], I've deleted most of those off of there because I can accomplish the same thing with seeing AI [Music] Male Voice: Jeffrey I see apps like Aipoly Vision, [Inaudible], Identifee, of course the KNFB Reader, I think seeing AI is becoming the main tool in the toolbox. Jeff: And you know, all the other channels that they have on their to four options but that's the one I use all the time because, you open it up it works. Serina: Yeah there's a handwriting one too that I've tried only a couple of times, but it surprisingly did recognize the handwriting enough for me to figure out at least what the note was generally about cuz sometimes my clients will stop in and I can't see them, and they'll leave a handwritten note at the front desk and obviously it's probably dependent on the individuals handwriting but I was at least able to get the name of the client and know, okay I'll just call them and see what they needed. Jeff: Hmm, well that's good. Serina: That one's in BETA I think. Jeff: Yeah you always wonder when they have a little feature that's in there and they tag the word BETA after it's like, you better use it now because it may not be there! Serina: Or it's like the disclaimer don't trust this feature. It might not work right! Jeff: Mm-hm try it on a doctor's prescription. [Laughter] Serina: Oh gosh. Jeff: That's the to test. Serina: This is totally not productive but when seeing AI first came out, we were playing with it in my office to see how old it thought everyone was. [Laughter] So all of my co-workers were like changing their hairstyles or putting on glasses or taking off glasses to try to trick it to make it think that they were younger. Jeff: That's a great use of state-funded money. [Laughter] Serina: Hey! Jeff: I know everyone's been doing that, it's kind of a novelty thing and that's like artificial intelligence to me when they're built into apps to me, it's like you know when you go to the carnival, you know, they'll guess your age and you win the whistle or something but you know, I'm not into the novelty stuff but that really does work. Serina: Hope, do you use seeing AI for any of your school work, or since it's mostly digital do you not have to use it a lot? Hope: Yeah I use it sometimes, I use it for work actually to find out whether or not my Mac, my work Mac is gonna turn on correctly. We have so many policies in place at Apple that sometimes voice-over doesn't turn on correctly and so I use either seeing AI or I also use AIRA for that, but most of the time I just grab my phone and you seeing AI. Speaking of the, or how old people were, I actually did that last weekend I think it was on my grandmother's 93rd birthday. I went up to her and took a picture of her and had seeing AI tell her how old she was, now again she's 93 right, so it said a 65 year old woman is smiling, or looks happy or something like that and she's like, wait, did it say 65? [Laughter] Hope: Shes like, I like that! So it made her day. Serina: Yeah. Jeff: I actually think for women they do have a built in algorithm that knocks off a couple years just to you know, keep the customers happy. Serina: No it added 10 years to mine, no matter what it says 10 years. Hope: Oh really. That's funny! [Laughter] Jeff: The algorithm breaker! Serina: Gosh. [Laughter] The other one that I use is obviously very similar to seeing AI but sometimes I require KNFB Reader when I have more than one page that I want to kind of read continuously. To my knowledge I don't know that you can scan multiple pages in seeing AI and if you can, somebody let me know, cuz I actually like it a little bit better. But sometimes when I'm working from home and I don't have access to my flatbed scanner but I need to read some printed like medical documents or things like that, I'll take out KNFB Reader and just scan a whole bunch of pages all at once and then read it, through it continuously, so that's very helpful, and then also you can save on KNFB Reader in their file system, and I think I saw on the latest update that now they can sync with Google Drive and Dropbox now to, so that's kind of a really cool feature that they've integrated in there now. Jeff: Yeah I like the KNFB Reader when I have like, I might have 10 pages of something to read and I don't want to take a picture of each of them so I put it on double sheet and then batch mode and when I turn the page it'll sense that, so you know you got the page turning then ch-ch-ch. KNFB Reader Voice: Manual picture button, automatic picture, picture from ste..., alert, please place your device on an empty document stand and align the camera with the aperture, okay, button, flash off, button, multi-page mode off, button, multi-page mode on. [Camera Sound Effect] Serina: Do you have a stand that you use with it? Jeff: Yeah I do, its the Fopydo and it was designed by Thomas Wardega, and here he is. Thomas: Fopydo sounds good, and I actually at that time asked my son, and it was actually a play on the on Scooby Doo. So basically this was designed from the ground up for people who are blind and visually impaired and along that process I learned to work with people who are blind so I went through a couple of revisions of the stand before I even started selling it just to make sure that people are happy with using it and that it fulfills whatever is needed from a scanning stand for people who are blind and visually impaired. [Camera Sound Effect] Jeff: It comes with a set of instructions that you can scan, you can put it together, once you got it together it just folds right up and you can put it in a suitcase, it takes up very little real estate. Serina: Oh I need one, and does it work with any phone or? Jeff: Well back when I talked with him he said it would handle, if you balanced it right, and iPad Mini, so I, I guess your your beast of a phone, your iPhone X may work. [Laughter] Serina: Yeah and put the link in the show notes cuz I've been, I thought, I had somebody looking for one before and they were like $50, I'm like mm-hmm, I'll just hold it up, you know. [Laughter] Jeff: Having the batch mode on the KNFB Reader really makes it viable product for someone that's in school that may have to be scanning a lot of pages. Serina: I definitely need one of those. Jeff: Yeah we'll put the link in the show notes and I believe he sells it on Amazon and if you have Amazon Prime, there you go, ten, twelve bucks. Serina: Primes getting expensive though it's like $120.00 starting this year. Hope: I think there's a discount for students. Serina: It's half off for students cuz I had that for a couple of years, and then they got smart and realized that I'm not a student anymore because my school let me keep my student email address for years, and I don't even think I have it anymore now. Now they make you verify by sending in like a schedule. Hope: Oh really? Serina: Yeah. Hope: Similar to Apple music, they do the same thing. Serina: Yeah, and I think Spotify does the same thing too. Hope: Yep. Serina: They got smart. Jeff: So we'll have to put the link in there for Amazon Prime half off for students, that's good news. Serina: Yeah that's it, and half off of Apple music and Spotify, not that those are, those could be productivity apps because if you need music to stay focused. Hope: Technically yeah, exactly, that works! Jeff: Or books. Hope: Yeah. Jeff: Amazon still sells books. Serina: Who orders books anymore? Jeff: Does anybody use Audible for books? Serina: I do not, I totally looked at it, but every time I looked at it I just can't, like I think it's thirteen ninety-nine a month for so many credits and one, the amount of credits you get for that amount is equal to downloading one book, and I haven't found that it's better than just using BARD, because they usually have especially if it's a best-seller what I want anyway. Jeff: Mm-hmm and the BARD app is totally accessible too. Serina: Yeah it's, it's a little old school sometimes, it has its glitches but it gets the job done. Hope: It can be yeah, exactly. Jeff: But it's, it's something that if you do send in a report and stuff like that they'll fix it? We can hope for the best right Hope? Hope: Yeah exactly, yeah sure, I'll write them, I'll give them a good report! Jeff: There you go. Hope: Sure. [Laughter] Serina: Well and it's hard because I know, I think that's run by the Library of Congress so that probably takes like an act of Congress just to get a glitch fixed you know. Jeff: Oh good one! Serina: I didn't mean it to be all cheesy but it's kind of funny. Jeff: Yeah it is, it is, it's nice when things work and you know, you were talking about seeing AI when you open it up short text just starts. I got an app called Drafts, just like the seeing AI, when you open it up it just works the short text is working, do you open it up and the cursors waiting up in the upper left-hand corner and you can start typing, you don't have to open up a new file. The neat thing is if you're in a meeting and you're taking notes and you can set it for certain increments of minutes that pass by and then next time like you open your phone, say it closed, it'll start a new file automatically. Serina: Well that's cool. Jeff: So you're not adding to your recipe you wrote two days ago that's still sitting there, do you want to save it, you don't know if you should save it, it automatically, so if you set it up for 10 minutes, if 10 minutes goes by, it saves it, and opens up a new one, just ready to go, so it's like a new sheet of scratch pad for you, can actually do some markups on it, yeah share it anywhere you want, it's really cool. I do the cut and paste and then just pop it into an email, bang! Serina: I like that, is that a free up too? Jeff: Yeah Drafts is free, I think it's called Drafts 5, there is a professional upgrade, a pro version and that is $20 a year or two dollars a month, but you can do a lot with just the Drafts app. I just love that because when you just want to take down a note, I don't like going into, I use pages because it syncs up with my apple orchard but when I'm at someplace where the meetings starting and I open up pages, you know it has to load up, it goes to the recent, and it seems like, you know all the gears have to spin around five times before anything happens, but this one opens up just bang, it's ready to go. Serina: I especially have that problem using the native Notes app on the iOS devices. Ever since they made it where you've got some notes on your iPhone, some on iCloud, some on Google Drive, or Dropbox or wherever, it's so hard for me to figure out where my notes are anymore that I just don't use that app anymore. Jeff: And that's my second app that I was going to talk about, it's the files app in iOS platform on the iPhone. Files, if you don't know where it went because it says, oh it's stored on the iCloud, or on the desktop in the iCloud, or on the iCloud Drive or wherever, and you start hunting around, but if you go to files and go to most recent, it'll check all those files, all those different drives, all the different places on your phone and everything, but if you go to recent and then if you click up on top you can go back and actually go specifically only to one area where you think it is, but if you put it on all, its checking all those drives that you have synced up with it and you can usually find it, so when I get lost for a second I just open up files and go to the most recent and there it is. Serina: That's a good tip, I didn't know that. I never really knew the point of the files app. Jeff: Yeah check it out, open it up and just see, and you'll see what you've been doing lately. Seirna: So I have one more that you do not know that is my favorite apps to use, any guesses? Jeff: Hope, what do you think it is? Hope: Hmmm, Uber, no it's not productivity, nevermind. [Laughter] Serina: Well technically it is, I do use Uber and Lyft a lot for work actually because I have to go as part of my job, I have to be at high schools and things like that and I am almost an exclusive Lyft user personally. Jeff: And why Lyft over Uber? Serina: I just have found just with my personal experience in the city that I live in that I've had better luck with Lyft drivers as far as friendliness and I have a service animal so, I've never been rejected on Uber, I'm actually, the only place I was was actually on Lyft. I found that the cars have been cleaner and the drivers just seem friendlier and with Uber I specifically am NOT a fan of the, if we wait more than two minutes, we're gonna charge you policy. Hope: Oh that's not good. Serina: Yeah that's a newer policy, maybe in the last six months and that policy just really bothers me especially when you're visually impaired. Drivers will say they're there and you're like where? You know, and if they're automatically gonna charge you, I think it's, I don't, I guess it's maybe like five dollars, if the driver has to wait I believe it's more than two minutes, like that's stressful, it's already nerve-racking like being like, hey I've got a service animal, are they gonna drive right past me, are they gonna pick me up, and then to know they're also gonna charge me an extra five bucks if I can't find them. And then they also tend to do the walk here and meet your driver thing. Jeff: Oh yeah. Serina: And I've never had that happen with Lyft no matter, I've been in downtown Denver and that's not happened before, but Uber will send you up a random parking lot or something to meet your driver. Hope: Oh wow! No thank you. Serina: Yeah so that's more why I'm Lyft exclusive, and then on the driver side I'm not quite sure how it breaks down, I don't remember how much the drivers get but I know with Uber it's not like a set percentage that the drivers get as far as, like I think it with Lyft the drivers get 75% of the fares With Uber, nobody really knows what percentage of the fare they get because they can, I've had drivers say like, yeah I've done rides Denver to you know, the DIA Airport and sometimes I get 60, sometimes I get a hundred, like there's no, I guess transparency with it. Jeff: Mmm-hm. Serina: And I can only speak to you know what I'm told, but I just personally feel better about using Lyft and for those who don't know, Lyft also released an update to their service dog policy saying that an allergy or a fear of animals is not a valid reason to not pick up an individual with a service animal and I feel like that's a very strong policy, and that's telling you where they stand on that very clearly, and I'm not, I'm not sure if Uber has come out as strong as they did. But that's all for a whole another podcast, you have to use all that when we talk about transportation. [Laughter] Jeff: No that's, that's good information because in my neck of the woods my wife uses Lyft, I use Uber and yet, I've been noticing that at certain peak times the price goes way up and other times it's low, and the waiting time changes, but you know, if it were two minutes, it's sometimes it's as low as thirty seven cents, but other times it's higher, you know, so things, I think it's the area you're in that really has, it makes a difference between which one you use, it is productivity because you got to get places and it's nice to know you can get there. Serina: And on time and on your own time. Jeff: Good. Serina: But that was a really good guess that brought on a whole another discussion, I liked it. [Laughter] Serina: But honestly we're on the app right now. Jeff: Ahh, zoom zoom. [Laughter] Serina: But part of my job is to train other people and to hold conference calls and things like that, and to my knowledge as far as like a true training platform where you can record and share your screen and things like that, I found that Zoom is the most accessible system out there that's also used by like companies all over the place. I know Skype is out there, but I don't know if Skype lets you like record the calls and things like that, I don't, like independently, not by pushing it through a different software but just right in the program recording it and having that access to be able to share your screen and still use your PowerPoint effectively and things like that. Jeff: Mm-hmm, and we're doing a neat thing for the first time here and we didn't know if we could do it but Hope sat beside us waiting patiently for us, but we figured it out and we're recording on two ends right now. Serina: Unless I pushed the wrong button again which is very possible. [Laughter] Jeff: Another cliffhanger, stay tuned next week when we find out! Serina: That will be our opener next week. Guess what I actually did it right! Jeff: You know, I'm starting to like Zoom because it's like I can't even tell you, you guys are here, because typically when we're using Skype in my headphones, I have this hiss when other people aren't talking so there's continuous hisses going on and then in the editing phase. So Zoom's really good and I really like the feature where you can send an email and people can just click on the link and they connect right up. Serina: Yep, it makes it really really easy. Hope: So a question I have, you mentioned sharing your screen, how accessible is that with voiceover? I heard through the grapevine that the voice-over will read actually what's on the screen. I don't know if it's true or not? Serina: So I haven't had a chance to test that because at work we don't use any Max, and then when I'm on a Zoom call and I am a participant I'm not usually on my iPhone. Hope: Right. Serina: So if you are leading the meeting and you're sharing your screen, it's actually pushing through a video of your screen, so it's almost like, I just imagine like a webcam watching your screen or whatever. Hope: Right, so I would assume it's not accessible then. Serine: Correct, but and I don't remember the keystroke, maybe Jeff knows, but I know in the latest major update to the OS on the Macs and iOS, you can have it essentially perform an OCR on the screen like live, with the software on the Mac, but I haven't had a chance to truly test that out just because I'm not usually on Apple devices when I'm participating. The way that I work around that, because I do have to present to individuals that use screen readers as well sometimes, is I usually will send my PowerPoint out ahead of time so that they can follow along while they're listening to the meeting, but then they also have access to the chat panel and everything else, it's just the visual of the video that they're not quite having access to but I, I just send it out ahead of time. Jeff: Yeah I haven't dug too deep into this, but Serina told me about Jonathan Mosen's book, and he did a full fledge book on using Zoom for calls and meetings and stuff like that, and yeah, I believe you can get that on Mosen's consulting on the website, and we'll put a link to that in the show notes. Serina: Yeah the book is called "Meet Me Accessibly" and it's very current based on, because I listen to maybe four or five chapters so far, and it sounds like he recorded it maybe in June of 17 and he does a really good job of letting you hear the screen reader and how it interacts with everything and going through all the different settings and explaining what exactly it is that they all do. Jeff: Yes he does he has quite a few books on Mosen's consulting so when you get there, just look around and he has tutorials on a lot of different topics, he's into the Mac, he's into, no not the Mac as much anymore, but he's into the PC, Microsoft. Serina: All these plugs Jeff, you're going to need to get some royalties! [Laughter] Jeff: Hopefully I get their name right and their website right. Another app that I have that I use and some people laugh at this, I use Dictionary Thesaurus Plus, and if you get the dictionary you can upgrade and you get, its a combination of Dictionary and Thesaurus Plus and I get the word of the day, and I'm just waiting to get that specific word to send Serina because she laughed at me when I talked about this app before. But it's just kind of neat because in there, they have flashcards and I'm on the bottom, they're not labeled but I figured out what two of them are, flashcards, so I took insight today just when I was skipping around there and I made a flashcard so on one side it says insight, on the other side it says the definition, so someone could actually go through there if they have a 10 word list that need to know or learn, like they're in school and they could actually input the word, get the dictionary, and there's also a button that says go to page, so if you want more definition you can just click on it, brings it right to the dictionary page and it's just kind of a neat resource if you're into that you know. If you want to know what words mean. Serina: Well that could you, I mean you just brought up a good point though, that could be a really good study aid for somebody if you're in a class where there's a lot of maybe theories, or specific definitions you need to know, you could load all those in there and while you're on the bus or whatever kind of be going through those, probably a more fun way than just reading the book. Jeff: Yeah and that's why I did it, like when I took Spanish, I made, I made note cards. I took these note cards and I brailled on one side, and then on the other side I had some other Braille, the translation in English to what it was, so I could just go through, and people were like joking with me like, Oh flashcards, it's like it's something for the kids or something, but hey, it's a good learning tool because it's just repetitious and pretty soon it just starts coming to you. Serina: Mmm-hmm. Jeff: So I dug right in when I saw they had flashcards, I went wow! So I really like that and it's, uh I think there's a fee for the upgrade, might be a few dollars but you can get download at all for free and test it and then in the in-app you can upgrade. Serina: Nice! Jeff: Well I think we got a handful of apps here that you know through experience we, we've been trying, we've been using and stuff. Some of these apps if you find them useful click on the show notes, download them, check them out, and if you have any feedback or suggestions on the apps that you want us to do on our next show, give us a jingle, drop us an email at JobInsights@blindabilities.com, on Twitter at Job Insights VIP, and uh, let us know what you think. Serina: What are we talking about next tiem John....John? Wow! Sorry! [Laughter] Jeff: Well Sarah! [Laughter] Jeff: What will our next one be on? Serina: I don't know, we have so many topics, normally I'm like, let's take this, let's let Hope pick the next topic, no pressure! Hope: No pressure yeah right mm-hmm! Let's do transportation since we kind of talked a little bit about it in this one, that would make sense. Serina: Getting to work. Hope: Yeah, absolutely. Serina: Perfect. Jeff: Getting to work, school, college. Hope: Yeah. Jeff: There you go Sarah! Serina: Stop it! [Laughter] Jeff: And if you want to contact Hope, she's on Twitter. Serina: If you want people to have it? Hope: Yeah my Twitter is Fidelco, capital F as in Foxtrot, I, D as in Delta, E, L, C, O, 4, the number four, ever. My email address is hopepaulos@gmail.com, so hopepaulos@gmail.com. Jeff: Well Hope thank you very much for coming on to Job Insights, it's really neat to have you and we're gonna have you back as soon as possible here for our next round table. Hope: Thank you so much Jeff and Serina, it was wonderful being here. I appreciate it! Serina: Yep, you have a great day! Hope: Thank you! Jeff: Do you know it's nearly midnight and you said have a great day? Serina: Well this will come out during the day. [Laughter] [Music] Jeff: It was a real pleasure having Hope Paulos join us on the show today, all the way from Maine, and next week when we're talking about transportation all the way from New York we'll have Joe De Niro, so stay tuned to the next episode of Job Insights. And a big shout-out to Chee Chau for his beautiful music and you can follow him on Twitter at lcheechau, as always thank you for listening, we hope you enjoyed, and until next time bye-bye [Multiple voices] When we share what we see through each other's eyes, We can then begin to bridge the Gap between the limited expectations and the realities of Blind Abilities. Jeff: For more podcast with the blindness perspective, check us out on the web at www.blindabilities.com, on twitter at BlindAbilities, download our app from the app store, Blind Abilities, that's two words, or send us an email at info@blindabilities.com, thanks for listening.  

Take Full Advantage of Transition Services: Enhancing Opportunities for Success - Meet Kylee Jungbauer (Transcript Provided) Kylee Jungbauer is a rehabilitation counselor at state services for the blind. Her concentration is transition age students. We talked to Kylie about what services they provide for students.  Transitioning from high school to college and to the workplace. State services for the blind has a Transition Unit that facilitates a path for students, providing guidance and opportunities for success. From assessments to training, the transition Team offers as much or as little help as needed while promoting self advocacy and independence along the way. Kylee talks about the importance of Summer Programs and how the Transition Team provides opportunities with employment, career exploration and access to training on the tools that will help bring about a successful transition.   Full Transcript Below   Check out below for a list of Summer opportunities and programs.   Check out your State Services by searching the Services Directory on the AFB.org web site.   State Services for the Blind of Minnesota We offer tools and training for employment and for helping seniors remain independent and active. As Minnesota’s accessible reading source we also transcribe books and other materials into alternative formats, including audio and braille. We assist Minnesotans who are blind, DeafBlind, losing vision, or who have another disability that makes it difficult to read print. I hope you find what you need here. We've also created a Tips for Using Our New Website page. If you’d like to apply for services, learn more, or have more questions, just give us a call. You’ll find contact information for all of our offices on our contact page, or you can call our main office at 651-539-2300.   2018 Summer Opportunities for Teens Learning skills related to blindness, low vision, and DeafBlindness The programs listed below are of varying lengths during the summer. They offer training in independent living and job readiness skills. The program descriptions that follow are taken from each organization’s website. If you’d like to pursue any of these opportunities, please speak with your SSB counselor:   BLIND Incorporated  (Blindness: Learning in New Dimensions) offers an 8-week Post-secondary, Readiness, Empowerment Program (PREP) designed to prepare students for academic, employment, and social success.  The PREP curriculum is designed to empower blind youth with the alternative techniques of blindness they will need to be successful in the college and the career fields they choose, and to give them the confidence and belief in themselves they need to find and keep a job. Additionally there are three one-week summer programs focusing on independent living, post-secondary success, and navigating the world of work.      Career Ventures, Inc . offers resources in: Job Seeking Skills training, Volunteer opportunities, Paid-work experiences, Job Shadows, Internships (on a case by case basis), Job Placement, and Job Coaching. Contact Wendy DeVore at wdevore@careerventuresinc.com for more information.   Courage Kenny SHARE Program  is a resource that provides people of all ages and abilities the opportunity to achieve physical and emotional fitness - and just have some fun. SHARE is a service of Courage Kenny Rehabilitation Institute, part of Allina Health, but our list of services includes those offered by other organizations. It's a one-stop shop for activity listings and registration details in Minnesota and western Wisconsin.    Duluth Center for Vision Loss  offers summer camps designed to sharpen skills needed for success, including Workforce Readiness, College Readiness, Self-advocacy, Mobility, Technology, Independent living, and much more. Students will learn core workforce readiness and adjustment to blindness skills.  They will also be given the opportunity to socialize with peers from across the state and to participate in a wide array of recreational activities. The Lighthouse Transition Program is built on the understanding that “now is the time” that youth need to be developing certain core skills that are essential for their future    Helen Keller National Center  offers programs to students who are DeafBlind which enable each person who is deaf-blind to live and work in his or her community of choice. HKNC offers individualized evaluation and training which will assist students in achieving their own definition of success. The emphasis for the student in the program is to participate in learning opportunities which will lead to successful employment and a full, enriched and independent life in the community. The philosophy of the Center is one of self-determination for all.   Minnesota State Academy for the Blind  (MSAB) offers Summer School programming for elementary, Middle school and high school age students.  Elementary School programs focus on elementary level academics as well as individual goals identified in student IEP’s. Middle and High school students will participate in activities encompassing the three areas of transition (postsecondary, employment, and independent living).  National Federation of the Blind offers of variety of local and national opportunities. The NFB BELL Academy is designed to provide intensive Braille instruction to blind and low-vision children during the summer months. EQ is a week-long learning opportunity that gets blind students excited about STEM by offering hands-on learning experiences. Visit www.nfb.org and www.nfbmn.org for more information.    Stone Arch Employment Solutions, Inc. Email Cori Giles at cori.giles@comcast.net for information.   Summer Transition Program (STP) provides experiences to address the specific transition needs of students who are Blind, Visually impaired or DeafBlind. STP complements each student’s core curriculum at their local school by providing individualized opportunities in the three transition areas identified in their Individualized Education Program (IEP). These unique transition activities, as part of the Expanded Core Curriculum, give each student the opportunity to increase independence in their school, home, community and work environments. Dates for 2018 are June 13-25.  Email Julie Kochevar at julie.kochevar@ahschools.us for information.   Thank you for listening. You can follow us on Twitter @BlindAbilities On the web at www.BlindAbilities.com Send us an email Get the Free Blind Abilities App on the App Store.   Transcript   Take Full Advantage of Transition Services: Enhancing Opportunities for Success - Meet Kylee Jungbauer (Transcript Provided) Kylee: State Services for the Blind can be included in on that plan but then we will also have an employment plan for the students as well. Jeff: Kylee Jungbauer, Rehabilitation Counselor for Transition Age Students. Kylee: We like to keep our students busy during the summer, that's what I tell all of my students so yep, if you're working with us we expect that you're working your plan and obtain that job goal. Jeff: Voices from the success stories of transition age students. Student 1: State Services for the Blind played a role in helping me figure out, for one thing what I wanted to do after high school, and then where I wanted to go to college, and then also they assisted me with helping me find a job. Student 2: Training in stuff relating to technology and all your use of computers and phones, what's the best way that works for you. Student 3: So I was very lucky to have an IEP team that was familiar with working with a blind student. Jeff: Learn about the transition unit at State Services for the Blind. Kylee: I think another way a parent can be involved is just to have that expectation of their student that they will work, and have that expectation that okay yes, they need to learn how to cook, how to do their own laundry, how to clean because the parents aren't gonna be around forever right. Jeff: Kylee is part of a team at State Services for the Blind in their transition unit. Be sure to contact your State Services and find out what their transition team can do for you, and for more podcasts with the blindness perspective, check us out on the web at www.blindabilities.com, on Twitter at Blind Abilities, and download the free Blind Abilities app from the app store, that's two words, Blind Abilities. Kylee: But I think more importantly, is taking a step back and saying, okay, do you have the skills to actually go to college, do you have you know, the advocacy skills, do you have the technology skills, do you have the technology that you actually need? Jeff: Kylee Jungbauer. Kylee: Yep. Jeff: Is that right? Kylee: Yep, yep. Jeff: Welcome to Blind Abilities, I'm Jeff Thompson. Transitioning from high school to college to the workplace, it's a journey that most of us have taken, or some of us are looking forward to, and we'll be talking to Kylee Jungbauer. She's a transition counselor at State Services for the Blind. Kylee is going to talk about the services that you can receive to enhance your opportunities whether in college or gaining employment in the workplace. She's going to talk about the transition unit at State Services which will help you navigate your transition journey and make available all the resources, training, and skills, and confidence that you'll need for the journey. Kylee welcome to Blind Abilities how are you doing? Kylee: I'm great, how are you? Jeff: I'm doing good thank you. I really appreciate you taking the time to come down to the studios to share with us what you do for clients of State Services for the Blind. Kylee: Yes of course. Jeff: So Kylee, what is the transition unit at State Services for the Blind? Kylee: We work with youth about 14 to all the way up to 24, so college students as well, and we help them move through their transition from high school to either college or high school to just starting off with their first couple of jobs, we look at what their job goal is, or if they don't have a job goal, bringing them to that, with looking at different interest, inventories, or getting different work experiences so they can try different jobs and see what they really like. Jeff: When you say 14 to 24, so 14 you're talking about students who are in high school? Kylee: Correct yep, so when they're in high school we work with in conjunction with their schools and their TBVI's to supplement what they're already getting or maybe give suggestions, expose them to some different technology, and things that maybe they aren't getting in their school. Some schools provide a lot of adjustment to blindness training, and some schools do little, so we like to supplement especially during the summer when they're out of school. Jeff: And why is that? Kylee: Just to get them prepared for life, like I said transitioning out of education, you know high school, a lot of the services are provided for them, they aren't really having to advocate hopefully too hard for those services versus when they're an adult, they're kind of on their own and they have to learn how to do those things and advocate either in college or in their first jobs. Jeff: And what kind of options are there for the summer? Kylee: We have a lot of summer programming that some of it we provide, a lot of it the various vendors provides anywhere from more social to adjustment to blindness training, where, you know learning Braille, learning orientation mobility skills, a lot of Technology in Duluth, since it's so far away they have some online courses where you can work with them remotely I guess from anywhere in within Minnesota, so there's a lot of different options. Jeff: When you were talking about the TVI's teachers for the visually impaired, you're talking about the district teachers? Kylee: I don't know if they're considered district teachers or not but the district's hire them, yeah the schools provide that service. Jeff: And that's where they start their individual educational plan. Kylee: Yep yep, the TBVI's, they're included in it, the students will also have a case manager that kind of runs the whole thing and makes sure that the goals that are written on the education plan are being obtained or maintained or changed as needed, and State Services for the Blind can be included in on that plan but then we will also have an employment plan for the students as well with their job goal, or if there isn't a job goal then we, we just put something generic while we're exploring different careers. Jeff: So they actually have a simultaneous education plan segueing into a employment plan? Kylee: Correct yep, they'll have an education plan and an employment plan at the same time up until graduation of course, and then it will just be an employment plan with State Services for the Blind, and that will bring them through either their first job or college. Jeff: Well that's a good segue. Kylee: Yeah. Jeff: How does State Services or the transition work with the districts or the Department of Education in Minnesota? Kylee: We like to be invited to all of the IEP meetings so please invite us, that doesn't always happen, just because sometimes they get thrown together really last minute and as long as the parent and the student can make it they kind of just go on with it but, it's good for us to be there so we can see what the school is providing and maybe advocate for more, maybe make suggestions, or see where we can supplement in during this school year, you know sometimes students have time on weekends or after school, or especially during the summer time when they're on break. We like to keep our students busy during the summer that's what I tell all of my students, so yep if you're working with us we expect that you're working your plan and obtain that job goal throughout the school year and then especially during the summer when you're on break and you have that extra time, Jeff: Are there internship programs available to transition-age students in the summer? Kylee: Yes definitely we can work with a vendor but we also have our work opportunity navigator, Tou Yang, and he works with a lot of the students that I'm working with to get them internships, paid summer jobs, if they're interested in working during the school year that's great too, or doing Job Shadows so they can check out different jobs. Some students have this career goal, they know they want to do it but they haven't really talked to somebody who's in the work field actually doing that job, and they may find that oh it looks like it's a lot more data entry and paperwork versus client contact and so maybe they don't want to do that, or maybe they want to be a photographer but they don't want to have to figure out their own taxes or anything like that, so they'll look into working for a company versus going out on their own. So different things that they just don't know because they haven't had that experience. Jeff: Experience that will help them formulate their career goals. Kylee: Right exactly, yep so each career goal on our end has to be looked at, explored, and we have to determine if it's feasible, so if we have a student who wants to be a dolphin trainer for instance but doesn't want to leave Minnesota, that's probably not going to be something that SSB will support just because once they graduate you know, they won't be able to find a job here in Minnesota, so yep. Jeff: Maybe moose training or something but not dolphin training. Kylee: Yes. [Whoosh Sound Effect] Jeff: So if someone wants to explore a career, is there a resource here to help them do that? Kylee: Yep work with Tou, and also we've got a couple different websites that we can either send to our students or sit with them and work one-on-one with them to do some exploration that way, and hopefully the student are getting that in their school as well, hopefully. Jeff: So Tou, you say he's the employment navigator, he actually contacts companies, works with companies to know what they want and educate them on what to expect probably, and then brings people in for opportunities? Kylee: Yep, yep he has a background in working and doing job placement for other companies in the past so he has those employer connections which is great as well, but yep he brings students out to look at people out doing the actual job that they may be interested in so they can see the intricacies of it and still interested in that after learning the ins and outs or if maybe it's not for them and they want to explore other options. Jeff: So Kylee, how do parents get involved, do you have contact with parents of transition students? Kylee: Definitely, parents can be as involved as they want to be of course if their student is a minor, they have to be there for any signing of documentation, but after that they can be as involved as they want to be, kind of feel that out with both the student and the parents. Sometimes I just meet with my students one-on-one during the school day or whatever is convenient for them, but sometimes the parents want to be there, sometimes I can send an email to the parents after a meeting just giving them a recap. If I'm sending internship opportunities or things that need to be filled out with the student and maybe the student isn't the most responsive, I'll just CC the parents on the email just to make sure that everybody saw that it needs to be sent back. But I think another way that parents can be involved is just to have that expectation of their student that they will work, and have that expectation that, okay yes they need to learn how to cook, how to do their own laundry, how to clean, because the parents aren't gonna be around forever right, and they also hopefully won't be following their student to college, so if they need those skills just like any other person. But on the flip side of that, we understand that for a college student, or college bound student it is normal for them not to have those skills. I think college bound students kind of figure out how to do their own laundry once they show up and they dye a white shirt red for the first time and then they're like, okay maybe I need to figure this out, so that's totally normal but I think yeah, for parents to have that expectation that their students work and most people I know had to have a summer job so they could pay for their gas, pay for their the clothes that they want, or the new phone, or you know what have you, so yeah just having that expectation that their student will go on in transition just like any other visual person, so yeah. Jeff: You brought up a good point about you know, the parents are probably their first advocate that they have coming along in life, and there's comes a point in that transition process where a student has to start considering taking over that advocacy, advocating for themselves, like when they don't get a book on time that they can't always depend on their TBI or disability services, they get to a point where they start to have take responsibility for laundry like you said, all that stuff. Kylee: Yep yep, we have a whole Student Handbook that we go through and it has expectations of you know all the documentation that we need before semester starts, but I think more importantly is taking a step back and saying, okay do you have the skills to actually go to college, do you have you know the advocacy skills, do you have the technology skills, do you have the technology that you actually need, the knowledge of the different apps, you know to get your books online, right now it's Jesse that's working with all of our students, but getting our transition tech involved and they come in for a tech assessment to see what they have right now and what they'll need with both technology and technology training. So I have a student right now we're getting her tech package in but also we're planning for the training that she'll need in preparation for going off to college because surprisingly, her typing skills aren't that great, so that's something she knows she really needs to work on because all of those papers that she's gonna be writing, she's gonna need those skills, yeah super exciting, skills that you'll need right. [Whoosh Sound Effect] Jeff: I've seen reports where like colleges said that people are coming in and they're not prepared, and I've also seen where people come in but they end up being like a week or two behind because they're just trying to use this new technology that they don't understand yet and you have to be able to hit the ground running when you enter college. Kylee: Right yes, I talk a lot about that you know, college is high school times ten, you know you don't have a whole week to learn about one chapter in a book, and then have a test on it maybe a week later, it's like five chapters in one week, so you have, yeah right exactly, you have to be able to hit the ground running. So making sure that they're connected with the disability services at their college and they know the ins and outs of how they ask for accommodations, if they need extra time with test taking, anything like that, knowing how to get all that stuff before they go into college. I talked to my students about how some teachers are fabulous with accommodations and some just don't want to deal with it, or they haven't really had to deal with it in the past, so having those advocacy skills are huge. Jeff: Yeah I always suggested when I went in, I learned right away that, send in an email to each teacher, each professor, six weeks in advance if you get that opportunity, to start setting up that communications, and get that underway, rather than trying to set something, because everyone's busy that first week. Kylee: Definitely yeah. I know when I went off to college for the first time, I was terrified to talk to any of my professors, but you don't have that you know option when you need accommodations, you just have to go for it, and feel you know, be comfortable, or maybe you don't have to be comfortable with it, but you have to be able to at least do it, so yeah having those skills is huge. Jeff: Yeah and it does get more comfortable, and as long as you do get comfortable with it, it just puts it back, you just move forward from there. Kylee: Right exactly. Jeff: What words of advice for someone who is transitioning from high school to college to the workplace? Kylee: I would say make sure that you have all of your technology training down, your orientation and mobility, make sure that you're comfortable with that. I think a lot of students are comfortable in their school settings, so some that have some vision may not even use their cane, but I think it's important when you're out in public especially when you're learning new locations to have those orientation mobility skills down, because yeah you will need them. Advocacy skills as well because you need to be able to talk to your employer and let them know what you need and feel comfortable with that, yeah it's very important. Jeff: Yeah because most colleges aren't that one building school. Kylee: Exactly yep, and a lot of the students that I work with we offer orientation mobility skills, multiple semesters so they can learn their new path, you know each time. After a student's been on campus for a couple of years they pretty much know the layout but, I have no problem each semester bringing in orientation mobility, you, just right away so they feel comfortable with where they're going. Jeff: Well that's great, Kylee how does someone get in contact with State Services for the Blind for the first time? Kylee: The best way to do it is to contact, if you're in the metro to contact our St. Paul office, and they will get you connected with Meredith Larsen, and Meredith does all of our orientation and intakes, and orientation is provided twice a month at different times, so you can come in, learn about all of our services and decide if this is the right program for you. If so then she'll meet with you one-on-one and do an intake and have you sign an application at that point and that kind of, your signing saying yes I'm dedicated to this program, and then from there you'll start working with a counselor. If your you're in the metro it'll be either me or Ashlyn, and if you're in Greater Minnesota there's different counselors out in those areas that also work with our transition youth. Jeff: That's perfect, well Kylee, once again thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to come down to the studios here and sharing with us, believe me it's been a wealth of information, so thank you very much. Kylee: Yep, thank you. Jeff: It was a real pleasure talking to Kylee and be sure to check out the show notes where you can find out how to contact State Services for the Blind, and you can find the summer programs that are listed, and some job opportunities you could have for helping out at the summer programs, and to contact State Services in your state be sure to check out AFB.org where they have resources where you can find the services offered in your state. This podcast is produced in part by State Services for the Blind, live, learn, work, and play. [Music] And a big thanks goes out to Chi Chow for his beautiful music, and that's LChiChow on Twitter. Thank You Chi Chow. Once again, thanks for listening, we hope you enjoyed, and until next time, bye-bye. [Music] [Multiple voices] When we share what we see through each other's eyes, we can then begin to bridge the Gap between the limited expectations and the realities of Blind Abilities. For more podcast with the blindness perspective, check us out on the web at www.blindabilities.com, on twitter at BlindAbilities, download our app from the app store, Blind Abilities, that's two words, or send us an email at info@blindabilities.com, thanks for listening.

QUESTION from our listener Jeff: How can a couple grow together and be truly happy if one of the parties has some underlying personal issues? I dive into this question and offer Jeff some basic feedback that all of us need to hear about "issues." If you think your partner has issues, this is going to help both of you, a lot! SHOWNOTES Whose 'issues' you need to beware of [3:00] Do you have to be happy with yourself before you get into a relationship? [5:00] The two decisions you need to make to deal with dysfunctional behaviour [8:00] How to avoid weaponizing self-help tools [10:00]

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Three years ago the United Nations sanctioned March 20th as International Day of Happiness – day to drive awareness for the need for happiness in our worlds. Today’s guest is a major supporter of this event. He is the founder of Live Happy magazine, Jeff Olson, and for the second year in a row, Live Happy has joined the U.N. with its own mission to lead a global movement to inspire the world to think, act and live happy with the #HappyActs Challenge. For more, check out HappyActs.org. Jeff Olson is also the Founder and CEO of Nerium International™. He is the autrho of the best-selling book, The Slight Edge. A few takeaways from our time with Jeff: How happiness correlates to prosperity in your financial life. Jeff's "Millionaire Next Door" mindset and how it helps him protect his wealth. The benefits of growing up poor and the financial breakthrough Jeff experienced in college.