Podcast appearances and mentions of jeff yes

In this special episode of the Oracle University Podcast, Lois Houston and Nikita Abraham, along with Principal HCM Instructor Jeff Schuster, delve into the intersection of HCM and AI, exploring the practical applications and implications of this technology in human resources. Jeff shares his insights on bias and fairness, the importance of human involvement, and the need for explainability and transparency in AI systems. The discussion also covers the various AI features embedded in HCM and their impact on talent acquisition, performance management, and succession planning.  Oracle AI in Fusion Cloud Human Capital Management: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/learning-path/oracle-ai-in-fusion-cloud-human-capital-management-hcm/136722 Oracle Fusion Cloud HCM: Dynamic Skills: https://mylearn.oracle.com/ou/course/oracle-fusion-cloud-hcm-dynamic-skills/116654/ Oracle University Learning Community: https://education.oracle.com/ou-community LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/oracle-university/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/Oracle_Edu Special thanks to Arijit Ghosh, David Wright, and the OU Studio Team for helping us create this episode. -------------------------------------------------------- 00:00 Welcome to the Oracle University Podcast, the first stop on your cloud journey. During this series of informative podcasts, we'll bring you foundational training on the most popular Oracle technologies. Let's get started!  00:26 Lois: Hello and welcome to the Oracle University Podcast! I'm Lois Houston, Director of Innovation Programs here at Oracle University, and with me, is Nikita Abraham, Team Lead of Editorial Services. Nikita: Hi everyone! Last week's conversation was all about Oracle Database 23ai backup and recovery, where we dove into instance recovery and effective recovery strategies. Today's episode is a really special one, isn't it, Lois? 00:53 Lois: It is, indeed, Niki. Of course, all of our AI episodes are special. But today, we have our friend and colleague Jeff Schuster with us. I think our listeners are really going to enjoy what Jeff has to share with us. Nikita: Yeah definitely! Jeff is a Principal HCM Instructor at Oracle University. He recently put together this really fantastic course on MyLearn, all about the intersection of HCM and AI, and that's what we want to pick his brain about today. Hi Jeff! We're so excited to have you here.  01:22 Jeff: Hey Niki! Hi Lois! I feel special already. Thanks you guys so much for having me. Nikita: You've had a couple of busy months, haven't you?  01:29 Jeff: I have! It's been a busy couple of months with live classes. I try and do one on AI in HCM at least once a month or so so that we can keep up with the latest/greatest stuff in that area. And I also got to spend a few days at Cloud World teaching a few live classes (about artificial intelligence in HCM, as a matter of fact) and meeting our customers and partners. So yeah, absolutely great week. A good time was had by me.  01:55 Lois: I'm sure. Cloud World is such a great experience. And just to clarify, do you think our customers and partners also had a good time, Jeff? It wasn't just you, right? Jeff: Haha! I don't think it was just me, Lois. But, you know, HCM is always a big deal, and now with all the embedded AI functionality, it really wasn't hard to find people who wanted to spend a little extra time talking about AI in the context of our HCM apps. So, there are more than 30 separate AI-powered features in HCM. AI features for candidates to find the right jobs; for hiring managers to find the right candidates; skills, talent, performance management, succession planning— all of it is there and it really covers everything across the Attract/Grow/Keep buckets of the things that HR professionals do for a living. So, anyway, yeah, lots to talk about with a lot of people! There's the functional part that people want to know about—what are these features and how do they work? But obviously, AI carries with it all this cultural significance these days. There's so much uncertainty that comes from this pace of development in that area. So in fact, my Cloud World talk always starts with this really silly intro that we put in place just to knock down that anxiety and get to the more practical, functional stuff. 03:11 Nikita: Ok, we're going to need to discuss the functional stuff, but I feel like we're getting a raw deal if we don't also get that silly intro. Lois: She makes a really good point.  Jeff: Hahaha! Alright, fair enough. Ok, but you guys are gonna have to imagine I've got a microphone and a big room and a lot of echo. AI is everywhere. In your home. In your office. In your homie's home office. 03:39 Lois: I feel like I just watched the intro of a sci-fi movie. Jeff: Yeah. I'm not sure it's one I'd watch, but I think more importantly it's a good way to get into discussing some of the overarching things we need to know about AI and Oracle's approach before we dive into the specific features, so you know, those features will make more sense when we get there?  03:59  Nikita: What are these “overarching” things?  Jeff: Well, the things we work on anytime we're touching AI at Oracle. So, you know, it starts with things like Bias and Fairness. We usually end up in a pretty great conversation about things like how we avoid bias on the front end by making sure we don't ingest things like bias-generating content, which is to say data that doesn't necessarily represent bias by itself, but could be misused. And that pretty naturally leads us into a talk about guardrails. Nikita: Guardrails? Jeff:  Yeah, you can think of those as checkpoints. So, we've got rules about ingestion and bias. And if we check the output coming out of the LLM to ensure it complied with the bias and fairness rules, that's a guardrail. So, we do that. And we do it again on the apps side. And so that's to say, even though it's already been checked on the AI side, before we bring the output into the HCM app, it's checked again. So another guardrail.  04:58 Lois: How effective is that? The guardrails, and not taking in data that's flagged as bias-generating? Jeff: Well, I'll say this: It's both surprisingly good, and also nowhere near good enough.  Lois: Ok, that's as clear as mud. You want to elaborate on that?  Jeff: Haha! I think all it means is that approach does a great job, but our second point in the whole “standards” discussion is about the significance of having a human in the loop. Sometimes more than one, but the point here is that, particularly in HCM, where we're handling some really important and sensitive data, and we're introducing really powerful technology, the H in HCM gets even more important. So, throughout the HCM AI course, we talk about opportunities to have a human in the loop. And it's not just for reviewing things. It's about having the AI make suggestions, and not decisions, for example. And that's something we always have a human in the loop for all the time. In fact, when I started teaching AI for HCM, I always said that I like to think of it is as a great big brain, without any hands.  06:00 Nikita: So, we're not talking about replacing humans in HCM with AI.                                                                         Jeff: No, but we're definitely talking about changing what the humans do and why it's more important than ever what the humans do. So, think of it this way, we can have our embedded AI generate this amazing content, or create really useful predictions, whatever it is that we need. We can use whatever tools we want to get there, but we can still expect people to ask us, “Where did that come from?” or “Does this account for [whatever]?”. So we still have to be able to answer that. So that's another thing we talk about as kind of an overarching important concept: Explainability and Transparency. 06:41 Nikita: I'm assuming that's the part about showing our work, right? Explaining what's being considered, how it's being processed, and what it is that you're getting back. Jeff: That's exactly it. So we like to have that discussion up front, even before we get to things like Gen and Non-Gen AI, because it's great context to have in mind when you start thinking about the technology. Whenever we're looking at the tech or the features, we're always thinking about whether people are appropriately involved, and whether people can understand the AI product as well as they need to.  07:11 Lois: You mentioned Gen and Non-Gen AI. I've also heard people use the term “Classic AI.” And lately, a lot more about RAG and Agents. When you're teaching the course, does everybody manage to keep all the terminology straight? Jeff: Yeah, people usually do a great job with this. I think the trick is, you have to know that you need to know it, if that makes sense.  Lois: I think so, but why don't you spell it out for us. Jeff: Well, the temptation is sometimes to leave that stuff to the implementers or product developers, who we know need to have a deep understanding of all of that. But I think what we've learned is, especially because of all the functional implications, practitioners, product owners, everybody needs to know it too. If for no other reason so they can have more productive conversations with their implementers. You need to know that Classic or Non-Generative AI leverages machine learning, and that that's all you need in order to do some incredibly powerful things like predictions and matching. So in HCM, we're talking about things like predicting time to hire, identifying suggested candidates for job openings, finding candidates similar to ones you already like, suggesting career paths for employees, and finding recommended successors. All really powerful matching stuff. And all of that stuff uses machine learning and it's certainly AI, but none of that uses Generative AI to do that because it doesn't need to. 08:38 Nikita: So how does that fit in with all the hype we've been hearing for a long time now about Gen AI and how it's such a transformative technology that's going to be more impactful than anything else? Jeff: Yeah, and that can be true too. And this is what we really lean into when we do the AI in HCM course live. It's much more of a “right AI for the right job” kind of proposition. Lois: So, just like you wouldn't use a shovel to mix a cake. Use the right tool for the job. I think I've got it. So, the Classic AI is what's driving those kinds of features in HCM? The matching and recommendations?  Jeff: Exactly right. And where we need generative content, that's where we add on the large language model capability. With LLMs, we get the ability to do natural language processing. So it makes sense that that's the technology we'd use for tasks like “write me a job description” or “write me performance development tips for my employee”. 09:33 Nikita: Ok, so how does that fit in with what Lois was asking about RAG and Agents? Is that something people care about, or need to? Jeff: I think it's easiest to think about those as the “what's next” pieces, at least as it relates to the embedded AI. They kind of deal with the inherent limitations of Gen and Non-Gen components. So, RAG, for example - I know you guys know, but your listeners might not...so what's RAG stand for? Lois & Nikita: Retrieval. Augmented. Generation. Jeff: Hahaha! Exactly. Obviously. But I think everything an HCM person needs to know about that is in the name. So for me, it's easiest to read that one backwards. Retrieval Augmented Generation. Well, the Generation just means it's more generative AI. Augmented means it's supplementing the existing AI. And Retrieval just tells you that that's how it's doing it. It's going out and fetching something it didn't already have in order to complete the operation. 10:31 Lois: And this helps with those limitations you mentioned? Nikita: Yeah, and what are they anyway?  Jeff: I think an example most people are familiar with is that large language models are trained on this huge set of information. To a certain point. So that model is trained right up to the point where it stopped getting trained. So if you're talking about interacting with ChatGPT, as an example, it'll blow your doors off right up until you get to about October of 2023 and then, it just hasn't been trained on things after that. So, if you wanted to have a conversation about something that happened after that, it would need to go out and retrieve the information that it needed. For us in HCM, what that means is taking the large language model that you get with Oracle, and using retrieval to augment the AI generation for the things that the large language model wouldn't have had.  11:22 Nikita: So, things that happened after the model was trained? Company-specific data? What kind of augmenting are you talking about? Jeff: It's all of that. All those things happen and it's anything that might be useful, but it's outside the LLM's existing scope. So, let's do an example. Let's say you and Lois are in the market to hire someone. You're looking for a Junior Podcast Assistant. We'd like the AI in HCM to help, and in order to do that, it would be great if it could not just generate a generic job description for the posting, but it could really make it specific to Oracle. Even better, to Oracle University.  So, you'd need the AI to know a few more things in order to make that happen. If it knows the job level, and the department, and the organization—already the job posting description gets a lot better. So what other things do you think it might need to know? 12:13 Lois: Umm I'm thinking…does it need to account for our previous hiring decisions? Can it inform that at all? Jeff: Yes! That's actually a key one. If the AI is aware not only of all the vacancies and all of the transactional stuff that goes along with it (like you know who posted it, what's its metadata, what business group it was in, and all that stuff)...but it also knows who we hired, that's huge. So if we put all that together, we can start doing the really cool stuff—like suggesting candidates based not only on their apparent match on skills and qualifications, but also based on folks that we've hired for similar positions. We know how long it took to make those hires from requisition open to the employee's first start date. So we can also do things like predicting time to hire for each vacancy we have with a lot more accuracy. So now all of a sudden, we're not just doing recruiting, but we have a system that accounts for “how we do it around here,” if that makes any sense.  But the point is, it's the augmented data, it's that kind of training that we do throughout ingestion, going out to other sources for newer or better information, whatever it is we need. The ability to include it alongside everything that's already in the LLM, that's a huge deal.  13:31  Nikita: Ok, so I think the only one we didn't get to was Agents. Jeff: Yeah, so this one is maybe a little less relevant in HCM—for now anyway. But it's something to keep an eye on. Because remember earlier when I described our AI as having a great big brain but no hands?  Lois: Yeah... Jeff: Well, agents are a way of giving it hands. At least for a very well-defined, limited set of purposes. So routine and repetitive tasks. And for obvious reasons, in the HCM space, that causes some concerns. You don't want, for example, your AI moving people forward in the recruiting process or changing their status to “not considered” all by itself. So going forward, this is going to be a balancing act. When we ask the same thing of the AI over and over again, there comes a point where it makes sense to kind of “save” that ask. When, for example, we get the “compare a candidate profile to a job vacancy” results and we got it working just right, we can create an agent. And just that one AI call that specializes in getting that analysis right. It does the analysis, it hands it back to the LLM, and when the human has had what they need to make sure they get what they need to make a decision out of it, you've got automation on one hand and human hands on the other...hand. 14:56 Have you mastered the basics of AI? Are you ready to take your skills to the next level? Unlock the potential of advanced AI with our OCI Generative AI Professional course and certification that covers topics like large language models, the OCI Generative AI Service, and building Q&A chatbots for real-world applications. Head over to mylearn.oracle.com to find out more. 15:26 Nikita: Welcome back! Jeff, you've mentioned the “Time to Hire” feature a few times? Is that a favorite with people who take your classes? Jeff: The recruiting folks definitely seem to enjoy it, but I think it's just a great example for a couple of reasons. First, it's really powerful non-generative AI. So it helps emphasize the point around the right AI for the right job. And if we're talking about things in chronological order, it's something that shows up really early in the hire-to-retire cycle. And, you know, just between us learning nerds, I like to use Time to Hire as an early example because it gets folks in the habit of working through some use cases. You don't really know if a feature is going to get you what you need until you've done some of that. So, for example, if I tell you that Time to Hire produces an estimated number of days to your first hire. And you're still Lois, and you're still Niki, and you're hiring for a Junior Podcast Assistant. So why do you care about time to hire? And I'm asking you for real—What would you do with that prediction if you had it?  16:29 Nikita: I guess I'd know how long it is before I can expect help to arrive, and I could plan my work accordingly. Jeff: Absolutely. What else. What could you do with a prediction for Time to Hire? Lois: Think about coverage? Jeff: Yeah! Exactly the word I was looking for. Say more about that.  Lois: Well, if I know it's gonna be three months before our new assistant starts, I might be able to plan for some temporary coverage for that work. But if I had a prediction that said it's only going to be two weeks before a new hire could start, it probably wouldn't be worth arranging temporary coverage. Niki can hold things down for a couple of weeks. Jeff: See, I'm positive she could! That's absolutely perfect! And I think that's all you really need to have in terms of prerequisites to understand any of the AI features in HCM. When you know what you might want to do with it, like predicting the need for temp cover, and you've got everything we talked about in the foundation part of the course—the Gen and the Classic, all that stuff, you can look at a feature like Time to Hire and then you can probably pick that up in 30 seconds. 17:29 Nikita: Can we try it? Jeff: Sure! I mean, you know, we're not looking at screens for this conversation, but we can absolutely try it. You're a recruiter. If I tell you that Time to Hire is a feature that you run into on the job requisition and it shows you just a few editable fields, and then of course, the prediction of the number of days to hire—tell me how you think that feature is going to work when you get there. Lois: So, what are the fields? And does it matter? Jeff: Probably not really, but of course you can ask. So, let me tell you. Ready? The fields—they are these. Requisition Title, Location, and Education Level.  Nikita: Ok, well, I have to assume that as I change those things… like from a Junior Podcast Assistant to a Senior Podcast Assistant, or change the location from Redwood Shores to Detroit, or change the required education, the time to hire is going to change, right?  Jeff: 100%, exactly. And it does it in real time as you make those changes to those values. So when you pick a new location, you immediately get a new number of days, so it really is a useful tool. But how does it work? Well, we know it's using a few fields from the job requisition, but that's not enough. Besides those fields, what else would you need in order to make this prediction work? 18:43 Lois: The part where it translates to a number of days. So, this is based on our historic hiring data? How long it took us to hire a podcast assistant the last time? Jeff: Yep! And now you have everything you need. We call that “historic data from our company” bit “ingestion,” by the way. And there's always a really interesting discussion around that when it comes up in the course. But it's the process we use to bring in the HCM data to the AI so it can be considered or predictions exactly like this. Lois: So it's the HCM data making the AI smarter and more powerful. Nikita: And tailored. Jeff: Exactly, it's all of that. And obviously, the HCM is better because we've given it the AI. But the AI is also better because it has the HCM in it. But look, I was able to give you a quick description of Time to Hire, and you were able to tell me what it does, which data it uses, and how it works in just a few seconds. So, that's kind of the goal when we teach this stuff. It's getting everybody ready to be productive from moment #1 because what is it and how does it work stuff is already out of the way, you know?  19:52 Lois: I do know! Nikita: Can we try it with another one? Jeff: Sure! How about we do...Suggested Candidates. Lois: And you're going to tell us what we get on the screen, and we have to tell you how it works, right? Jeff: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Ok—Suggested Candidates. You're a recruiter or a hiring manager. You guys are still looking for your Junior Podcast Assistant. On the requisition, you've got a section called Suggested Candidates. And you see the candidate's name and some scores. Those scores are for profile match, skills match, experience match. And there's also an overall match score, and the highest rated people you notice are sorted to the top of the list. So, you with me so far?  Lois: Yes! Jeff: So you already know that it's suggesting candidates. But if you care about explainability and transparency like we talked about at the start, then you also care about where these suggested candidates came from. So let's see if we can make progress against that. Let's think about those match scores. What would you need in order to come up with match scores like that? 20:54 Nikita: Tell me if I'm oversimplifying this, but everything about the job on the requisition, and everything about the candidate? Their skills and experience? Jeff: Yeah, that's actually simplified pretty perfectly. So in HCM, the candidate profile has their skills and experience, and the req profile has the req requirements.  Lois: So we're comparing the elements of the job profile and the person/candidate profile. And they're weighted, I assume? Jeff: That's exactly how it works. See, 30 seconds and you guys are nailing these! In fairness, when we discuss these things in the course, we go into more detail. And I think it's helpful for HCM practitioners to know which data from the person and the job profiles is being considered (and sometimes just as important, which is not being considered). And don't forget we're also considering our ingested data. Our previously selected candidates. 21:45 Lois: Jeff, can I change the weighting? If I care more about skills than experience or education, can I adjust the weighting and have it re-sort the candidates? Jeff: Super important question. So let me give you the answer first, which is “no.” But because it's important, I want to tell you more. This is a discussion we have in the class around Oracle's Embedded vs. Custom AI. And they're both really important offerings. With Embedded, what we're talking about are the features that come in HCM like any other feature. They might have some enablement steps like profile options, and there's an activation panel. But essentially, that's it. There's no inspection panel for you to open up and start sticking your screwdriver in there and making changes. Believe it or not, that's a big advantage with Embedded AI, if you ask me anyway.  Nikita: It's an advantage to not be able to configure it? Jeff: In this context, I think you can say that it is. You know, we talk about the advantages about the baked-in, Embedded AI in this course, but one of the key things is that it's pre-built and pre-tested. And the big one: that it's ready to use on day one. But one little change in a prompt can have a pretty big butterfly effect across all of your results. So, Oracle provides the Embedded AI because we know it works because we've already tested it, and it's, therefore, ready on day one. And I think that story maybe changes a little bit when you open up the inspection panel and bust out that screwdriver. Now you're signing up to be a test pilot. And that's just fundamentally different than “pre-built and ready on day one.” Not that it's bad to want configuration. 23:24 Lois: That's what the Custom AI path and OCI are about though, right? For when customers have hyper-specific needs outside of Oracle's business processes within the apps, or for when that kind of tuning is really required. And your AI for HCM course—that focuses on the Embedded AI instead of Custom, yes? Jeff: That is exactly it, yes. Nikita: You said there are about 30 of these AI features across HCM. So, when you teach the course, do you go through all of them or are there favorites? Ones that people want to spend more time on so you focus on those? Jeff: The professional part of me wants to tell you that we do try to cover all of them, because that explainability and transparency business we talked about at the beginning. That's for real, so I want our customers to have that for the whole scope.  24:12  Nikita: The professional part? What's the other part?  Jeff: I guess that's the part that says sure, we need to hit all of them. But some of them are just inherently more fun to work on. So, it's usually the learners who drive that in the live classes when they get into something, that's where we spend the most time. So, I have my favorites too. The learners have their favorites. And we spend time where it's everybody's favorite. Lois: Like where? Jeff: Ok, so one is far from the most complex one, but I think it's really elegant in its simplicity. And it's the Celebrate feature, where we do employee recognition. There's an AI Assist available there. So when it's time to recognize a colleague, you just need to enter the headline or the title, and the AI takes it from there and just writes up the recognition. 24:56 Lois: What about that makes it a good example, Jeff? You said it's elegant. What do you mean?  Jeff: I think it's a few things. So, start with the prompt. It's just the one line—just the headline. And that's your one input. So, type in the headline, get the recognition below. It's a great demonstration of not just the simplicity, but the power we get out of that simplicity. I always ask it to recognize my employees for implementing AI features in Oracle HCM, just to see what it comes up with. When it tells the employee that they're helping the company by automating routine tasks, bringing efficiency to the HR department, and then launches into specific examples of how AI features help in HCM, it really is pretty incredible. So, it's a simple demo, but it explains a lot about how the Gen AI works. Lois: That's really cool. 25:45 Nikita: So this one is generative AI. It's using the large language model to create the recognition based on the prompt, which is basically just whatever you entered in the headline. But how does that help explain how Gen AI works in HCM? Jeff: Well, let's take our simple prompt for example. There's a lot happening behind the scenes. It's taking our prompt, it's doing its LLM thing, but before it's done, it's creating the results in a very specific way. An employee recognition reads really differently than a job description. So, I usually describe this as the hidden part of our prompt. The visible part is what we typed. But it needs to know things like our desired output format. Make sure to use the person's name, summarize the benefits, and be sure to thank them for their contribution, that kind of stuff. So, those things are essentially hard-coded into the page. And that's to say, this is another area where we don't get an inspection panel that lets us go in and tweak the prompt.  26:42 Nikita: And that's generally how generative AI works? Jeff: Pretty much. Wherever you see an AI Assist button in HCM, that's more or less what's going on. And so when you get to some of the other more complex features, it's helpful to know that that is what's going on.  Lois: Like where? Jeff: Well, it works that way for the About Me part of your employee profile, for goal creation in performance, and I think a really great example is in performance, where managers are providing the competency development tips. So the prompt there is a little more complex there because it involves the employee's proficiency rating instead of free text. But still, pretty straightforward. You're gonna click AI Assist and it's gonna generate all the development tips for any specific competency listed for that employee. Good development tips. Five of them. Nicely formatted with bullet points. And these aren't random words assembled by an AI. So they conform to best practices in the development of competencies. So, something is telling the LLM to give us results that are that good, in that particular way.  So, it's just another good example of the work AI is doing while protected behind the inspection panel that doesn't exist. So, the coding of that page, in combination with what the LLM generates and the agent that it uses, is what produces the result. That's generally the approach. In the class, we always have a good time digging into what must be going on behind that inspection panel. Generally speaking, the better feel we have for what's going on on these pages, the better we're able to get the results we want, even without having that screwdriver out. 28:21  Nikita: So it's time well-spent, looking at all the individual features? Jeff: I think so, especially if you're anticipating really using any of them. So, the good news is, once you learn a few of them and how they work, and what they're best at, you stop being surprised after a while. But there are always tips and tricks. And like we talked about at the top, explainability and transparency are absolutely key. So, as much as I'm not a fan of the phrase, I do think this is kind of a “knowledge is power” kind of situation. 28:51 Nikita: Sadly, we're just about out of time for this episode.  Lois: That's too bad, I was really enjoying this. Jeff, you were just talking about knowledge—where can we get more?  Jeff: Well, like you mentioned at the start, check out the AI in HCM course on MyLearn. It's about an hour and a half, but it really is time well spent. And we get into detail on everything the three of us discussed here today, and then we have demoscussions of every feature where we show them and how they work and which data they're using and a whole bunch more. So, there's that. Plus, I hear the instructor is excellent. Lois: I can vouch for that! Jeff: Well, then you should definitely look into Dynamic Skills. Different instructor. But we have another course, and again I think about an hour and a half, but when you're done with the AI course, I always feel like Dynamic Skills is where you really wanna go next to really flesh out all the Talent Management ideas that got stirred up while you were having a great time in the AI course.  And then finally, the live classes. It's always really fun to take live questions while we talk about AI in HCM.   29:54 Nikita: Thanks, Jeff! This has been really interesting.  Lois: Yeah, thanks for being here, Jeff. We've loved having you on. Jeff: Thank you guys so much for having me. It's been a pleasure.  Lois: If you want to learn more about what we discussed, go to the show notes for today's episode. You'll find links to the AI for Human Capital Management and Dynamic Skills courses that Jeff mentioned so you can check them out. You can also head over to mylearn.oracle.com to find the live sessions for MyLearn subscribers that Jeff conducts. Nikita: Join us next week as we kick off our “Best of 2024” season, where we'll be revisiting some of our most popular episodes of the year. Until then, this is Nikita Abraham…  Lois: And Lois Houston, signing off!   30:35 That's all for this episode of the Oracle University Podcast. If you enjoyed listening, please click Subscribe to get all the latest episodes. We'd also love it if you would take a moment to rate and review us on your podcast app. See you again on the next episode of the Oracle University Podcast.

Jeff Morris, VP of Product & Solutions Marketing at Couchbase, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss Couchbase's new columnar data store functionality, specific use cases for columnar data stores, and why AI gets better when it communicates with a cleaner pool of data. Jeff shares how more responsive databases could allow businesses like Dominos and United Airlines to create hyper-personalized experiences for their customers by utilizing more responsive databases. Jeff dives into the linked future of AI and data, and Corey learns about Couchbase's plans for the re:Invent conference. If you're attending re:Invent, you can visit Couchbase at booth 1095.About JeffJeff Morris is VP Product & Solutions Marketing at Couchbase (NASDAQ: BASE), a cloud database platform company that 30% of the Fortune 100 depend on.Links Referenced:Couchbase: https://www.couchbase.com/TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. This promoted guest episode of Screaming in the Cloud is brought to us by our friends at Couchbase. Also brought to us by Couchbase is today's victim, for lack of a better term. Jeff Morris is their VP of Product and Solutions Marketing. Jeff, thank you for joining me.Jeff: Thanks for having me, Corey, even though I guess I paid for it.Corey: Exactly. It's always great to say thank you when people give you things. I learned this from a very early age, and the only people who didn't were rude children and turned into worse adults.Jeff: Exactly.Corey: So, you are effectively announcing something new today, and I always get worried when a database company says that because sometimes it's a license that is going to upset people, sometimes it's dyed so deep in the wool of generative AI that, “Oh, we're now supporting vectors or whatnot.” Well, most of us don't know what that means.Jeff: Right.Corey: Fortunately, I don't believe that's what you're doing today. What have you got for us?Jeff: So, you're right. It's—well, what I'm doing is, we're announcing new stuff inside of Couchbase and helping Couchbase expand its market footprint, but we're not really moving away from our sweet spot, either, right? We like building—or being the database platform underneath applications. So, push us on the operational side of the operational versus analytic, kind of, database divide. But we are announcing a columnar data store inside of the Couchbase platform so that we can build bigger, better, stronger analytic functionality to feed the applications that we're supporting with our customers.Corey: Now, I feel like I should ask a question around what a columnar data store is because my first encounter with the term was when I had a very early client for AWS bill optimization when I was doing this independently, and I was asking them the… polite question of, “Why do you have 283 billion objects in a single S3 bucket? That is atypical and kind of terrifying.” And their answer was, “Oh, we built our own columnar data store on top of S3. This might not have been the best approach.” It's like, “I'm going to stop you there. With no further information, I can almost guarantee you that it was not.” But what is a columnar data store?Jeff: Well, let's start with the, everybody loves more data and everybody loves to count more things, right, but a columnar data store allows you to expedite the kind of question that you ask of the data itself by not having to look at every single row of the data while you go through it. You can say, if you know you're only looking for data that's inside of California, you just look at the column value of find me everything in California and then I'll pick all of those records to analyze. So, it gives you a faster way to go through the data while you're trying to gather it up and perform aggregations against it.Corey: It seems like it's one of those, “Well, that doesn't sound hard,” type of things, when you're thinking about it the way that I do, in terms of a database being more or less a medium to large size Excel spreadsheet. But I have it on good faith from all the customer environments. I've worked with that no, no, there are data stores that span even larger than that, which is, you know, one of those sad realities of the world. And everything at scale begins to be a heck of a lot harder. I've seen some of the value that this stuff offers and I can definitely understand a few different workloads in which case that's going to be super handy. What are you targeting specifically? Or is this one of those areas where you're going to learn from your customers?Jeff: Well, we've had analytic functionality inside the platform. It just, at the size and scale customers actually wanted to roam through the data, we weren't supporting that that much. So, we'll expand that particular footprint, it'll give us better integration capabilities with external systems, or better access to things in your bucket. But the use case problem is, I think, going to be driven by what new modern application requirements are going to be. You're going to need, we call it hyper-personalization because we tend to cater to B2C-style applications, things with a lot of account profiles built into them.So, you look at account profile, and you're like, “Oh, well Jeff likes blue, so sell him blue stuff.” And that's a great current level personalization, but with a new analytic engine against this, you can maybe start aggregating all the inventory information that you might have of all the blue stuff that you want to sell me and do that in real-time, so I'm getting better recommendations, better offers as I'm shopping on your site or looking at my phone and, you know, looking for the next thing I want to buy.Corey: I'm sure there's massive amounts of work that goes into these hyper-personalization stories. The problem is that the only time they really rise to our notice is when they fail hilariously. Like, you just bought a TV, would you like to buy another? Now statistically, you are likelier to buy a second TV right after you buy one, but for someone who just, “Well, I'm replacing my living room TV after ten years,” it feels ridiculous. Or when you buy a whole bunch of nails and they don't suggest, “Would you like to also perhaps buy a hammer?”It's one of those areas where it just seems like a human putting thought into this could make some sense. But I've seen some of the stuff that can come out of systems like this and it can be incredible. I also personally tend to bias towards use cases that are less, here's how to convince you to buy more things and start aiming in a bunch of other different directions where it starts meeting emerging use cases or changing situations rapidly, more rapidly than a human can in some cases. The world has, for better or worse, gotten an awful lot faster over the last few decades.Jeff: Yeah. And think of it in terms of how responsive can I be at any given moment. And so, let's pick on one of the more recent interesting failures that has popped up. I'm a Giants fan, San Francisco Giants fan, so I'll pick on the Dodgers. The Dodgers during the baseball playoffs, Clayton Kershaw—three-time MVP, Cy Young Award winner, great, great pitcher—had a first-inning meltdown of colossal magnitude: gave up 11 runs in the first inning to the Diamondbacks.Well, my customer Domino's Pizza could end up—well, let's shift the focus of our marketing. We—you know, the Dodgers are the best team in baseball this year in the National League—let's focus our attention there, but with that meltdown, let's pivot to Arizona and focus on our market in Phoenix. And they could do that within minutes or seconds, even, with the kinds of capabilities that we're coming up with here so that they can make better offers to that new environment and also do the decision intelligence behind it. Like, do I have enough dough to make a bigger offer in that big market? Do I have enough drivers or do I have to go and spin out and get one of the other food delivery folks—UberEats, or something like that—to jump on board with me and partner up on this kind of system?It's that responsiveness in real, real-time, right, that's always been kind of the conundrum between applications and analytics. You get an analytic insight, but it takes you an hour or a day to incorporate that into what the application is doing. This is intended to make all of that stuff go faster. And of course, when we start to talk about things in AI, right, AI is going to expect real-time responsiveness as best you can make it.Corey: I figure we have to talk about AI. That is a technology that has absolutely sprung to the absolute peak of the hype curve over the past year. OpenAI released Chat-Gippity, either late last year or early this year and suddenly every company seems to be falling all over itself to rebrand itself as an AI company, where, “We've been working on this for decades,” they say, right before they announce something that very clearly was crash-developed in six months. And every company is trying to drape themselves in the mantle of AI. And I don't want to sound like I'm a doubter here. I'm like most fans; I see an awful lot of value here. But I am curious to get your take on what do you think is real and what do you think is not in the current hype environment.Jeff: So yeah, I love that. I think there's a number of things that are, you know, are real is, it's not going away. It is going to continue to evolve and get better and better and better. One of my analyst friends came up with the notion that the exercise of generative AI, it's imprecise, so it gives you similarity things, and that's actually an improvement, in many cases, over the precision of a database. Databases, a transaction either works or it doesn't. It has failover or it doesn't, when—Corey: It's ideally deterministic when you ask it a question—Jeff: Yes.Corey: —the same question a second time, assuming it's not time-bound—Jeff: Gives you the right answer.Corey: Yeah, the sa—or at least the same answer.Jeff: The same answer. And your gen AI may not. So, that's a part of the oddity of the hype. But then it also helps me kind of feed our storyline of if you're going to try and make Gen AI closer and more accurate, you need a clean pool of data that you're dealing with, even though you've got probably—your previous design was such that you would use a relational database for transactions, a document database for your user profiles, you'd probably attach your website to a caching database because you needed speed and a lot of concurrency. Well, now you got three different databases there that you're operating.And if you're feeding data from each of those databases back to AI, one of them might be wrong or one of them might confuse the AI, yet how are you going to know? The complexity level is going to become, like, exponential. So, our premise is, because we're a multi-modal database that incorporates in-memory speed and documents and search and transactions and the like, if you start with a cleaner pool of data, you'll have less complexity that you're offering to your AI system and therefore you can steer it into becoming more accurate in its response. And then, of course, all the data that we're dealing with is on mobile, right? Data is created there for, let's say, your account profile, and then it's also consumed there because that's what people are using as their application interface of choice.So, you also want to have mobile interactivity and synchronization and local storage, kind of, capabilities built in there. So, those are kind of, you know, a couple of the principles that we're looking at of, you know, JSON is going to be a great format for it regardless of what happens; complexity is kind of the enemy of AI, so you don't want to go there; and mobility is going to be an absolute requirement. And then related to this particular announcement, large-scale aggregation is going to be a requirement to help feed the application. There's always going to be some other bigger calculation that you're going to want to do relatively in real time and feed it back to your users or the AI system that's helping them out.Corey: I think that that is a much more nuanced use case than a lot of the stuff that's grabbing customer attentions where you effectively have the Chat-Gippity story of it being an incredible parrot. Where I have run into trouble with the generative story has been people putting the thing that the robot that's magic and from the future has come up with off the cuff and just hurling that out into the universe under their own name without any human review, and that's fine sometimes sure, but it does get it hilariously wrong at some points. And the idea of sending something out under my name that has not been at least reviewed by me if not actually authored by me, is abhorrent. I mean, I review even the transactional, “Yes, you have successfully subscribed,” or, “Sorry to see you go,” email confirmations on stuff because there's an implicit, “Hugs and puppies, love Corey,” at the end of everything that goes out under my name.Jeff: Right.Corey: But I've gotten a barrage of terrible sales emails and companies that are trying to put the cart before the horse where either the, “Support rep,” quote-unquote, that I'm speaking to in the chat is an AI system or else needs immediate medical attention because there's something going on that needs assistance.Jeff: Yeah, they just don't understand.Corey: Right. And most big enterprise stories that I've heard so far that have come to light have been around the form of, “We get to fire most of our customer service staff,” an outcome that basically no one sensible wants. That is less compelling than a lot of the individualized consumer use cases. I love asking it, “Here's a blog post I wrote. Give me ten title options.” And I'll usually take one of them—one of them is usually not half bad and then I can modify it slightly.Jeff: And you'll change four words in it. Yeah.Corey: Yeah, exactly. That's a bit of a different use case.Jeff: It's been an interesting—even as we've all become familiar—or at least junior prompt engineers, right—is, your information is only going to be as good as you feed the AI system—the return is only going to be as good—so you're going to want to refine that kind of conversation. Now, we're not trying to end up replacing the content that gets produced or the writing of all kinds of pros, other than we do have a code generator that works inside of our environment called Capella iQ that talks to ChatGPT, but we try and put guardrails on that too, right, as always make sure that it's talking in terms of the context of Couchbase rather than, “Where's Taylor Swift this week,” which I don't want it to answer because I don't want to spend GPT money to answer that question for you.Corey: And it might not know the right answer, but it might very well spit out something that sounds plausible.Jeff: Exactly. But I think the kinds of applications that we're steering ourselves toward can be helped along by the Gen AI systems, but I don't expect all my customers are going to be writing automatic blog post generation kinds of applications. I think what we're ultimately trying to do is facilitate interactions in a way that we haven't dreamt of yet, right? One of them might be if I've opted into to loyalty programs, like my United account and my American Express account—Corey: That feels very targeted at my lifestyle as well, so please, continue.Jeff: Exactly, right? And so, what I really want the system to do is for Amex to reward me when I hit 1k status on United while I'm on the flight and you know, have the flight attendant come up and be like, “Hey, you did it. Either, here's a free upgrade from American Express”—that would be hyper-personalization because you booked your plane ticket with it, but they also happen to know or they cross-consumed information that I've opted into.Corey: I've seen them congratulate people for hitting a million miles flown mid-flight, but that's clearly something that they've been tracking and happens a heck of a lot less frequently. This is how you start scaling that experience.Jeff: Yes. But that happened because American Airlines was always watching because that was an American Airlines ad ages ago, right, but the same principle holds true. But I think there's going to be a lot more of these: how much information am I actually allowing to be shared amongst the, call it loyalty programs, but the data sources that I've opted into. And my God, there's hundreds of them that I've personally opted into, whether I like it or not because everybody needs my email address, kind of like what you were describing earlier.Corey: A point that I have that I think agrees largely with your point is that few things to me are more frustrating than what I'm signing up, for example, oh, I don't know, an AWS even—gee, I can't imagine there's anything like that going on this week—and I have to fill out an entire form that always asked me the same questions: how big my company is, whether we have multiple workloads on, what industry we're in. And no matter what I put into that, first, it never remembers me for the next time, which is frustrating in its own right, but two, no matter what I put in to fill that thing out, the email I get does not change as a result. At one point, I said, all right—I'm picking randomly—“I am a venture capitalist based in Sweden,” and I got nothing that is differentiated from the other normal stuff I get tied to my account because I use a special email address for those things, sometimes just to see what happens. And no, if you're going to make me jump through the hoops to give you the data, at least use it to make my experience better. It feels like I'm asking for the moon here, but I shouldn't be.Jeff: Yes. [we need 00:16:19] to make your experience better and say, you know, “Here's four companies in Malmo that you ought to be talking to. And they happen to be here at the AWS event and you can go find them because their booth is here, here, and here.” That kind of immediate responsiveness could be facilitated, and to our point, ought to be facilitated. It's exactly like that kind of thing is, use the data in real-time.I was talking to somebody else today that was discussing that most data, right, becomes stale and unvaluable, like, 50% of the data, its value goes to zero after about a day. And some of it is stale after about an hour. So, if you can end up closing that responsiveness gap that we were describing—and this is kind of what this columnar service inside of Capella is going to be like—is react in real-time with real-time calculation and real-time look-up and real-time—find out how you might apply that new piece of information right now and then give it back to the consumer or the user right now.Corey: So, Couchbase takes a few different forms. I should probably, at least for those who are not steeped in the world of exotic forms of database, I always like making these conversations more accessible to folks who are not necessarily up to speed. Personally, I tend to misuse anything as a database, if I can hold it just the wrong way.Jeff: The wrong way. I've caught that about you.Corey: Yeah, it's—everything is a database if you hold it wrong. But you folks have a few different options: you have a self-managed commercial offering; you're an open-source project, so I can go ahead and run it on my own infrastructure however I want; and you have Capella, which is Couchbase as a service. And all of those are useful and have their points, and I'm sure I'm missing at least one or two along the way. But do you find that the columnar use case is going to disproportionately benefit folks using Capella in ways that the self-hosted version would not be as useful for, or is this functionality already available in other expressions of Couchbase?Jeff: It's not already available in other expressions, although there is analytic functionality in the self-managed version of Couchbase. But it's, as I've mentioned I think earlier, it's just not as scalable or as really real-time as far as we're thinking. So, it's going to—yes, it's going to benefit the database as a service deployments of Couchbase available on your favorite three clouds, and still interoperable with environments that you might self-manage and self-host. So, there could be even use cases where our development team or your development team builds in AWS using the cloud-oriented features, but is still ultimately deploying and hosting and managing a self-managed environment. You could still do all of that. So, there's still a great interplay and interoperability amongst our different deployment options.But the fun part, I think, about this is not only is it going to help the Capella user, there's a lot of other things inside Couchbase that help address the developers' penchant for trading zero-cost for degrees of complexity that you're willing to accept because you want everything to be free and open-source. And Couchbase is my fifth open-source company in my background, so I'm well, well versed in the nuances of what open-source developers are seeking. But what makes Couchbase—you know, its origin story really cool too, though, is it's the peanut butter and chocolate marriage of memcached and the people behind that and membase and CouchDB from [Couch One 00:19:54]. So, I can't think of that many—maybe Red Hat—project and companies that formed up by merging two complementary open-source projects. So, we took the scale and—Corey: You have OpenTelemetry, I think, that did that once, but that—you see occasional mergers, but it's very far from common.Jeff: But it's very, very infrequent. But what that made the Couchbase people end up doing is make a platform that will scale, make a data design that you can auto partition anywhere, anytime, and then build independently scalable services on top of that, one for SQL++, the query language. Anyone who knows SQL will be able to write something in Couchbase immediately. And I've got this AI Automator, iQ, that makes it even easier; you just say, “Write me a SQL++ query that does this,” and it'll do that. But then we added full-text search, we added eventing so you can stream data, we added the analytics capability originally and now we're enhancing it, and use JSON as our kind of universal data format so that we can trade data with applications really easily.So, it's a cool design to start with, and then in the cloud, we're steering towards things like making your entry point and using our database as a service—Capella—really, really, really inexpensive so that you get that same robustness of functionality, as well as the easy cost of entry that today's developers want. And it's my analyst friends that keep telling me the cloud is where the markets going to go, so we're steering ourselves towards that hockey puck location.Corey: I frequently remark that the role of the DBA might not be vanishing, but it's definitely changing, especially since the last time I counted, if you hold them and use as directed, AWS has something on the order of 14 distinct managed database offerings. Some are general purpose, some are purpose-built, and if this trend keeps up, in a decade, the DBA role is going to be determining which of its 40 databases is going to be the right fit for a given workload. That seems to be the counter-approach to a general-purpose database that works across the board. Clearly you folks have opinions on this. Where do you land?Jeff: Oh, so absolutely. There's the product that is a suite of capabilities—or that are individual capabilities—and then there's ones that are, in my case, kind of multi-model and do lots of things at once. I think historically, you'll recognize—because this is—let's pick on your phone—the same holds true for, you know, your phone used to be a watch, used to be a Palm Pilot, used to be a StarTAC telephone, and your calendar application, your day planner all at the same time. Well, it's not anymore. Technology converges upon itself; it's kind of a historical truism.And the database technologies are going to end up doing that—or continue to do that, even right now. So, that notion that—it's a ten-year-old notion of use a purpose-built database for that particular workload. Maybe sometimes in extreme cases that is the appropriate thing, but in more cases than not right now, if you need transactions when you need them, that's fine, I can do that. You don't necessarily need Aurora or RDS or Postgres to do that. But when you need search and geolocation, I support that too, so you don't need Elastic. And then when you need caching and everything, you don't need ElastiCache; it's all built-in.So, that multi-model notion of operate on the same pool of data, it's a lot less complex for your developers, they can code faster and better and more cleanly, debugging is significantly easier. As I mentioned, SQL++ is our language. It's basically SQL syntax for JSON. We're a reference implementation of this language, along with—[AsteriskDB 00:23:42] is one of them, and actually, the original author of that language also wrote DynamoDB's PartiQL.So, it's a common language that you wouldn't necessarily imagine, but the ease of entry in all of this, I think, is still going to be a driving goal for people. The old people like me and you are running around worrying about, am I going to get a particular, really specific feature out of the full-text search environment, or the other one that I pick on now is, “Am I going to need a vector database, too?” And the answer to me is no, right? There's going—you know, the database vendors like ourselves—and like Mongo has announced and a whole bunch of other NoSQL vendors—we're going to support that. It's going to be just another mode, and you get better bang for your buck when you've got more modes than a single one at a time.Corey: The consensus opinion that's emerging is very much across the board that vector is a feature, not a database type.Jeff: Not a category, yeah. Me too. And yeah, we're well on board with that notion, as well. And then like I said earlier, the JSON as a vehicle to give you all of that versatility is great, right? You can have vector information inside a JSON document, you can have time series information in the document, you could have graph node locations and ID numbers in a JSON array, so you don't need index-free adjacency or some of the other cleverness that some of my former employers have done. It really is all converging upon itself and hopefully everybody starts to realize that you can clean up and simplify your architectures as you look ahead, so that you do—if you're going to build AI-powered applications—feed it clean data, right? You're going to be better off.Corey: So, this episode is being recorded in advance, thankfully, but it's going to release the first day of re:Invent. What are you folks doing at the show, for those who are either there and for some reason, listening to a podcast rather than going to getting marketed to by a variety of different pitches that all mention AI or might even be watching from home and trying to figure out what to make of it?Jeff: Right. So, of course we have a booth, and my notes don't have in front of me what our booth number is, but you'll see it on the signs in the airport. So, we'll have a presence there, we'll have an executive briefing room available, so we can schedule time with anyone who wants to come talk to us. We'll be showing not only the capabilities that we're offering here, we'll show off Capella iQ, our coding assistant, okay—so yeah, we're on the AI hype band—but we'll also be showing things like our mobile sync capability where my phone and your phone can synchronize data amongst themselves without having to actually have a live connection to the internet. So, long as we're on the same network locally within the Venetian's network, we have an app that we have people download from the Apple Store and then it's a color synchronization app or picture synchronization app.So, you tap it, and it changes on my screen and I tap it and it changes on your screen, and we'll have, I don't know, as many people who are around standing there, synchronizing, what, maybe 50 phones at a time. It's actually a pretty slick demonstration of why you might want a database that's not only in the cloud but operates around the cloud, operates mobile-ly, operates—you know, can connect and disconnect to your networks. It's a pretty neat scenario. So, we'll be showing a bunch of cool technical stuff as well as talking about the things that we're discussing right now.Corey: I will say you're putting an awful lot of faith in conductivity working at re:Invent, be it WiFi or the cellular network. I know that both of those have bitten me in various ways over the years. But I wish you the best on it. I think it's going to be an interesting show based upon everything I've heard in the run-up to it. I'm just glad it's here.Jeff: Now, this is the cool part about what I'm talking about, though. The cool part about what I'm talking about is we can set up our own wireless network in our booth, and we still—you'd have to go to the app store to get this application, but once there, I can have you switch over to my local network and play around on it and I can sync the stuff right there and have confidence that in my local network that's in my booth, the system's working. I think that's going to be ultimately our design there because oh my gosh, yes, I have a hundred stories about connectivity and someone blowing a demo because they're yanking on a cable behind the pulpit, right?Corey: I always build in a—and assuming there's no connectivity, how can I fake my demos, just because it's—I've only had to do it once, but you wind up planning in advance when you start doing a talk to a large enough or influential enough audience where you want things to go right.Jeff: There's a delightful acceptance right now of recorded videos and demonstrations that people sort of accept that way because of exactly all this. And I'm sure we'll be showing that in our booth there too.Corey: Given the non-deterministic nature of generative AI, I'm sort of surprised whenever someone hasn't mocked the demo in advance, just because yeah, gives the right answer in the rehearsal, but every once in a while, it gets completely unglued.Jeff: Yes, and we see it pretty regularly. So, the emergence of clever and good prompt engineering is going to be a big skill for people. And hopefully, you know, everybody's going to figure out how to pass it along to their peers.Corey: Excellent. We'll put links to all this in the show notes, and I look forward to seeing how well this works out for you. Best of luck at the show and thanks for speaking with me. I appreciate it.Jeff: Yeah, Corey. We appreciate the support, and I think the show is going to be very strong for us as well. And thanks for having me here.Corey: Always a pleasure. Jeff Morris, VP of Product and Solutions Marketing at Couchbase. This episode has been brought to us by our friends at Couchbase. And I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry comment, but if you want to remain happy, I wouldn't ask that podcast platform what database they're using. No one likes the answer to those things.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

Fans of Travolting, let's imagine what this phone call was like for a moment shall we? Jeff calling StuartStuart: Hello?Jeff: Stuart.Stuart: Yes Jeff.Jeff: I'm so sorry to have to tell you this.Stuart: Oh great what is it now?Jeff: I was looking at our roster for The Fraser's Edge…Stuart: Yes?Jeff: And I've discovered something that I cannot believe we didn't think about.Stuart: OkayJeff: Remember during season one of Travolting when we covered The Poison Rose? Stuart: Yes. I try not to, but yes.Jeff: Well you know who else was in that movie?Stuart: Morgan Freeman?Jeff: Yes but not him. Stuart: Ella Bleu Travolta?Jeff: Yes but Stuart you're missing the obvious. Brendan Fraser is in that movie.Stuart: Wait… so you mean…Jeff: Yes Stuart. We must cover The Poison Rose…AGAIN.Stuart:.... hangs up

What you'll learn in this episode: How to know when to walk away from a purchase, and how to trust your intuition when buying Why you should always ask for a detailed receipt, even if it feels awkward Commonly misunderstood phrases dealers may use to confuse buyers How Jeff does due diligence before making a purchase How to navigate the many platforms where you can purchase jewelry today About Jeff Russak Jeff Russak is principal of Lawrence Jeffrey Estate Jewelers. Jeff's expertise in antique and 20th century jewelry combined with an uncompromising attitude toward quality, condition, and style directs the acquisition process. His proficiency in signed pieces and hallmarks is especially useful in identifying and dating each piece. In demand as a speaker on antique jewelry at museums and shows, he also volunteers as a guest appraiser for charity. Additional Resources: Website Facebook Instagram Twitter Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com   Transcript: When it comes to buying jewelry, nothing is more important than trust. That's why Jeff Russak, principal at Lawrence Jeffrey Estate Jewelers, won't hesitate to leave a purchase behind if his inner voice tells him something is wrong. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how he vets his purchases and the dealers he works with; what red flags buyers should watch out for; and why a receipt is more powerful than you might think. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today, my guest is Jeff Russak, one of the principals of Lawrence Jeffrey. They are estate dealers located in Litchfield, Connecticut. Jeff has had decades of experience buying and selling. He's also extremely knowledgeable about estate jewelry. Welcome back. What are the mistakes you see people make, whether in the receipt, in the returns or not asking the right questions? What are the mistakes you see? Jeff: The mistakes I see boil down to trusting the wrong person. There you are, and they're showing you a five-carat ruby. It's fire-engine red and pretty clear. It's in a nice ring, and it's $12,000 to $14,000. I can think of a half dozen booths I've seen at shows that had jewelry like this. Well, it's a good deal, and they're going to tell you it's a good deal. They're going to tell you how beautiful it is, but somewhere your brain must be going, “I'm a little worried.” If you're a little worried, stop. I can tell you that those rubies were glass-filled. Of course, they looked good. Were they rubies? The GIA would call them a red, man-made product rather than a ruby. I've gotten a report on such a stone, and that's what they said. I think you have to listen to your voice. The less you know, the more wary you need to be, and the more questions you need to ask. The more questions you ask, eventually you're going to hear things that are going to lead you to either trust and buy or not trust and not buy. If I were a neophyte, I would be like, “Wow, that's a really good price. That's so much less than I've seen for similar pieces. Is the stone natural?” If they say, “Oh yes, this is an all-natural ruby,” I would say, “Will you write that on my receipt?” Then you have recourse. Now we're getting into federal law. Again, we're talking about someone who doesn't know. You have to ask questions to try and get a sense. It's like questioning your six-year-old who's definitely got cupcake crumbs on his fingers. You know something has happened. You're not quite sure what, but you're pretty sure. You want to give him a chance. “So, what have you been up to?” “Oh, nothing.” “What's on your fingers?” They're going to look at their fingers. “Nothing but these crumbs.” “Crumbs, really?” So, you begin to get an idea. The truth is there's no silver bullet for solving these issues. I tell my clients to decide what fun money is to you. For some people, that's $100. For other people, that's $10,000. If you don't want to become more expert in something you want to buy a lot of, if you're going to spend more than fun money, ask an expert. Bring someone in who's knowledgeable, who's an expert, and take it from there. I do that too. I'm pretty expert in a lot of stuff. When I buy a very high-end sapphire, I have someone out on the West Coast who is strictly an expert on sapphire. I will often send it to that person to have it evaluated in much greater detail than a lab report. I will speak with them, and they will walk me through tracing all those factors in the marketplace and how they relate to establish what a wholesale price for it would be, and even sometimes what a retail price would be. A small difference in color in a five-carat stone could be a $10,000 to $20,000 difference at retail. Sharon: That's certainly true. Can you look at a piece of gold and tell who the designer is or where it's from? Jeff: The first thing I do is look for the hallmarks. I'm deft with reading hallmarks, and if I don't know—just this morning, I was taking a picture of a hallmark I couldn't find anywhere. Our shop has a library off the main floor, and the walls are covered with books on all the various designers, on gemology, on the history of jewelry. Then there are cases, which are closed, and they're filled with catalogues, every Tiffany catalogue from 1951. We have probably 60 or 70 Cartier catalogues. We have primary reference material we look at and use, but the short answer is about a third of the time, I can look at something and tell you who made it. But until I look at those hallmarks, it's just a really well-informed guess. Sharon: Can you tell the age of something? If you don't know who made it, can you tell the age just by looking? Jeff: Yes, by examining the piece and taking cues from both the aesthetic choices the goldsmith made, but also from the resources the goldsmith had when they were doing the fabrication. That usually is what tells me when something was made. The resources often dictate the mechanical style. For instance, the French often prefer not to physically join pieces in necklaces. They have a particular way of hinging them. It's sort of a pin with a mushroom cap. When you see that, you almost always know that's a French piece or it was made by someone who studied in France. If it's a Genevan piece, well, the Genevans often studied across the border. There are a lot of clues. It just takes time to learn them. Sharon: The people who work for you or with you, what do you suggest they learn? Do they follow you around, or do you show them each piece? Jeff: I have a really knowledgeable staff. They know a lot. Truthfully, I tell them all the time that they know a lot more than they think. They get to a certain point and I stop telling them; I just ask. In the beginning, though, they'll hesitate. They'll say something and it's almost always right. They have good instincts. When they've handled enough pieces, when we've pulled the books off the shelf—like when I look at Georgian pieces, I don't just go, “Oh, this George III,” or “Oh, this is George IV,” or “This is early Victorian.” They look different aesthetically in many cases, but the way the mountings are made, for instance, changes in subtle ways over a period of time. So, I'll go back to a reference book, and I'll pull out a dozen pictures from each period, say from 1740 to 1780 and then 1780 to 1800, and try and make sure to narrow it down. Some people have that in their heads. That one still hasn't stuck for me, so I always look it up to make sure. And I have a photo repository. There are many museums that allow you to take photographs. I have extensive photographs of pieces from the Treasury in Vienna because they allow photographs. I believe the British Museum has a vast collection—I don't believe; I know they have a vast collection of Victorian. They allow photographs, whereas the V&A, I don't think they do; I'm trying to remember. So, we have those resources as well. We're always trying to learn, and we take staff trips to museums. I'm hoping to take the staff on a museum tour, maybe in London at some point because there's so much to learn there. Every time I go, it reinforces what I've seen before. Sharon: Are there tours? I'm asking for a personal reason. Are there tours like you're talking about? Jeff: I think there are some jewelry tours. I want to say maybe get involved with Jewelry Week, the folks who run that. I don't know of any. We would just go on our own. I know where to go and what to look at and which dealers to visit, the rock stars of our world. Recently the Vegas Show went on, which is a dealer-only show. I was standing in a taxi line with my creative director, and we just struck up a conversation with one of the Heyman brothers from Oscar Heyman. I had no idea who he was, and we're just talking about stuff. I didn't even know he was in the jewelry world. Then he said something, and I was like, “Oh, you're at one of the shows. What do you do? Who are you with?” He said, “I'm with Oscar Heyman. I'm such-and-such Heyman,” and I said, “Oh, wow! We love your work so much. We follow you. We look at your work. You have such an amazing reputation.” They're the nicest people. He was so lovely. He looks around like he's looking for somebody and says, “Did my mother send you?” There's a group of people who are fantastically honest. I would recommend anyone to buy their jewelry, to deal with them, to use them as a resource if you have a Heyman piece. You can get in touch with them, and they will help you. They're really an example of the absolute pinnacle of an exemplary firm, and arguably maybe the most important American firm today. Sharon: I'm surprised to hear you say that you go from high to low or low to high in terms of looking at jewelry. Jeff: One of the things I wanted to talk about was all the different ways we can buy. We have so many choices today as a buyer. I think it's confusing somewhat, and some of the choices open up the opportunity to confuse people on purpose. You have dealers. You have dealers who have shops. You have dealers at shows. You have dealers who have online shops and in-person shops. You have dealers who only have online shops. You have online gateways. That's like a 1stDibs or an eBay, where dealers have their own space on these. You have flea markets, estate sales, tax sales. You have auctions in person. You have online auctions. Now, you have guaranteed preowned. You can go to Cartier and buy an estate piece guaranteed preowned like you buy a guaranteed preowned Mercedes. A number of those stores are doing that. Then you have buying from a friend, a private person, The RealReal, or Poshmark. There are places where regular people have somebody else sell their things or maybe they sell their own things. You have Facebook moms' groups. You have Facebook Marketplace. That's a lot of places to buy things, but here's the thing: the rules for how you buy are exactly the same no matter who you're buying from, and the laws that control these sales are exactly the same no matter who you buy from. That's a hard thing to remember. If you're shopping for an engagement ring, a mom who's selling her engagement ring may not want to give you a proper receipt. She might not even know she's supposed to, but she may only sort of remember what the diamond weight was. Maybe she didn't buy a diamond at all, or maybe she was given a diamond ring and it wasn't a diamond; maybe it was a Moissanite; maybe it was a synthetic diamond. All the more reason why you need a receipt. I'm not even saying that anyone is trying to do something dishonest in this situation. I'm saying that you're spending a decent little chunk of change or a big chunk of change, and you have to protect yourself. The more risk, the more careful you have to be. I'm just as careful as an ordinary buyer. I have a lot more knowledge that helps, but I'm just as careful. We buy from other dealers, obviously, all the time. There's a psychology of dealers selling to one another. Even though we're dyed-in-the-wool retailers, we still sell very specialized diamonds. We have several dealers in Europe who buy very specialized, historic pieces from us that are worth a lot more to their customers than they certainly would be to mine. It's not my specialty; it's not my niche. So, I have all the same issues buying from another dealer that a regular person might have buying through a moms' group. It's the same problems and issues, and it's the same task in terms of making sure you're getting what you think you're buying. Sharon: Do you sell a lot online? Do you notice a difference in the questions people ask? Jeff: I'm going to say off the cuff that I think there are more questions from my online buyers than from my in-person buyers. I think there are more questions, and more detailed questions. I think they're smart. The online buyer does not have the opportunity to look me in the eye, doesn't get to see where I'm standing or a sense of whether there's an exchange of information. Maybe they ask, “How long have you been in business?” “Well, we've been here in Litchfield for 26 years. We own the space we're in, so I'm hoping not to go anywhere else. This is my ideal. You'll find me here next year and hopefully in 10 years, in 20 years.” Beyond that, I'm not sure I can say any more, but I think the online buyer has to be just as wary, but perhaps in different ways. Sharon: What kinds of ways? As to the right questions? Jeff: The questions I get asked a lot: I get asked if I could send a video of the piece in natural light because they're concerned about the color. You know what? They should be. We have great photographic resources. Frequently I will decline to let my team sell a piece online because we can't get a picture that properly shows the color of a colored stone. Even though it looks right on our screens, which are calibrated, it's going to look really different on a phone. Phone screens are the best. It's going to look better on a phone than it might even look in person. It's going to look different on different screens. So, I think it's not a bad thing to ask some questions. Personally, I would call and say, “What does this look like in person? Can you describe it?” That's a frequent question, and I think it's a good one. People ask about the guarantee. You and I have discussed many times that the 10-second lecture on buying online is all about the guarantee. You have to be guaranteed that you can return something you don't like for any reason, no questions asked. Sharon: If I knew I could return something without any questions asked, I'd probably feel more comfortable, at least on some of these purchases. Jeff: I agree completely. There are many situations where you can't return pieces that are online and where you can't inspect them in person. As dealers, we can deal with having a certain amount of loss. Maybe in this particular situation, you buy from them several times a year, and maybe two or three pieces aren't right and you have to fix them. You hope to sell them for something close to what you paid and you move on. People say, “Well, it's just the cost of doing business.” As long as you feel like you're doing well overall, then O.K., that's great. But I think if you have a bad experience as a buyer, as a consumer, I would probably not go back to that situation. I would try to find some place you trust more. Sharon: That's probably good advice. Jeff, thank you so much for giving us your tips. I'm sure there are a lot more we didn't cover, but thank you very much. Jeff: You're so welcome. Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

INTRODUCTION:The Ramble by the River podcast is hosted by none other than Jeff Nesbitt!!! Jeff has been podcasting for quite some time and he brings a unique passion and flavor to the table that I resonate quite well with. In this interview we talk about how Jeff got kicked out of church for getting a divorce, how hypnosis plays into church services, male body image issues and Jeff's mushroom experiment in the Crack Shack.  INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to):·      Jeff's Recount Of Getting Kicked Out Of Church For Getting A Divorce·      The Inspiration Behind The Ramble By The River Podcast·      The Value Of Podcasting·      Why It Is Important To Separate God From The Church·      How Hypnosis Plays Into Church Services ·      The Pandemic And Maintaining Connections ·      Male Body Image Issues·      The Family Gratitude List·      The Marshmallow Test ·      Jeff's Mushroom Experiment In The Crack Shack  CONNECT WITH JEFF:Website & Podcast: https://ramblebytheriver.captivate.fmFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/jeff.nesbitt.9619/Twitter: https://twitter.com/rambleriverpodInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/ramblebytheriver/ DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS:·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)       - https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370       - TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs SDJ MEMBERSHIP (FULL EPISODES):·      $2.99 per month.·      Donate any amount for 30 days of access.·      $25 per year.https://www.sexdrugsandjesus.com/membership-account/membership-levels/ Jeff Nesbitt [00:00:00] You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to. And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right. At the end of the day, my name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world. As we dig into topics that are too risky for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your.There was nothing on the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.Jeff: Ramble by the river podcast is hosted by none other than Jeff Nesbitt. Jeff has been podcasting for quite some time. Now when he brings a unique passion and flavor to the table that I personally resonate well with. You all will too. And this interview, we're going to talk about how Jeff got kicked out of his church for getting a divorce, how hypnosis plays into church services, male body image issues, and [00:01:00] Jeff's mushroom experiment in the crack shack.Y'all that right? There was a hoop and is totally worth sticking around to listen, to enjoy the show.De'Vannon: Jeff, thank you so damn much for coming on to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast.Today. I say that with my church finger up, like the ushers would have in church on a Sunday morning. It is so glad to have you. How are you doing my friend? Jeff: I'm doing fantastic. Thank you so much for having. De'Vannon: Well, of course, it's only the polite thing to do, and I am a Southern Belle. You know, you had me on your show and, and of course I would have you upon mine.I wouldn't dream of having it any other way. And I'm perfect. Now your show is called ramble by the river. And I want you to tell us where you came up with that name, [00:02:00] the flow of your show and why you were inspired to call it that. Jeff: All right. So yeah, first of all, thank you so much for having me on the show.It's been a pleasure already, and I think it's going to be a good episode. And I had you on my show last week, because as you mentioned, and it was really fun. So my show ramble by the river has been going out since January of 2021. And it started because I have a job where I spent very much of my time by myself, and I really enjoy connecting with people. It wasn't something I was getting in my day-to-day life and I started to miss it and I really just needed that connection.So I started trying to pursue different avenues of creativity, like. Just music was one of them. And just trying to find what was going to bring me some kind of satisfaction. And I've, I've been listening to podcasts pretty often since around 2015. And by pretty often, I mean like [00:03:00] every day for several hours, because I'm driving all the time and by myself, so you can really click in and engage to some content when it's just you and nothing else.And so, yeah, I ended up getting my favorite podcasts, which I'll shout them out right now, or the king of the staying with Brendan Shaw and Theo Vaughn at one that one's great. Feel Von is in general. Very good. He's got another one called this past weekend. He's a comedian from California. He's actually from Covington, Louisiana.So he's down there from where, from where you're at.He's let's see who else we get. Aubrey Marcus podcast is one that I like a lot. He's he's pretty cool. Joe Rogan obviously is like the godfather of podcasting, mark Marin, just, you know, the classics. And so I would basically felt like I built these relationships with these content creators who I already mostly knew through traditional media forms, like TV shows, movies, things like that, a lot of standup comedians.[00:04:00] And I just really started to like, the medium podcasting is different than anything else because it's long form. And I got so used to trying to communicate. Who I was through 140 characters or through a picture or through one Facebook post and especially in a climate of everybody, just bitching constantly about what other people post on social media.So I just felt very self-conscious because no matter what you post on those short form platforms, you're going to be misinterpreted by somebody. If it's worth even reading in the first place. If it's, if it's just boring as fuck in the first place, no one even cares. You're not even going to get any traction on it.And then if you're a little provocative to try to get a little bit more attention, then you're going to hurt somebody's feelings or piss somebody off, or create a disagreement with somebody. And it's just not a good way to communicate. It's not effective. It doesn't create that sense of community that we're all looking for and that we all need.It does actually quite the opposite. It [00:05:00] creates division and polarization and increases some of the tribalism that is causing havoc in our political system today. So I didn't want any part of that. And I really, I really have never liked social media. So it's, I mean, I like the idea of it. I liked it back in the very beginning days, like 2007, when it was like almost anonymous and it wasn't all talking to other platforms before Twitter and Facebook and Instagram all connected.It seemed better to me, but I digress. I didn't like those forms as a way to express who I am. And in this digital world, you have to do that. That's where we're living now. Especially during the pandemic, we are essentially living in a simulation. We're getting in, we're jacking into the system every day.We're going to work through our computers. We are living digital. And I wanted to do that in a form that could actually capture the most accurate representation of who I really am. [00:06:00] And I think that's podcasting because it's just a, it's a, it's a time capsule of your thoughts and opinions of that moment, because it's not always researched fully.It's not always supported with evidence. I like them to be ideally they will be, but a lot of the time it's just raw. It's emotional stuff. Just pouring out of you and anybody can do that once you open the tap and just try not to feel super vulnerable, it's, it's pretty therapeutic.So after that I was like, all right, I'm going to start a podcast. And Buddy who lived right down the road. I grew up with also named Jeff and I'm not, and hit him and me both kind of battle with depression. So it's something we've dealt with since like middle school. And we've been friends for a very, very long time and we both deal with it and we recognize that each other.So we've kind of talked with each other about it that entire time. And so [00:07:00] winter time, as most people who struggle with depression know winter time is the rough time. That's when stuff starts to get harder and you have to work a lot harder to stay. Just keep your head above water. It's dark, it's cold.It's wet. It's just like, it's a wet blanket on your soul, a Pacific Northwest winter. So we're like, let's start a podcast. Jeff and Jeff Inc. And which is like our pretend fake company that we started in fourth grade. So we started getting stuff together and he's a fishermen commercial fishermen. So pretty quickly he was, he was having to go work.And so I was out here building the studio and I did, I, the majority of it by myself, I painted this mural, I, which wraps all the way around the room. And I. Put in quite a few hours on the studio and it came together and I was like, well, [00:08:00] shit. Now I have a podcast studio. I better start a podcast. So I started workshopping names and I just keep a list in my phone.Every time I would think of one or something clever came up, I'd put it in the phone. And by the time I had around 50 names, I thought, okay, one of these has to work and I had a hell of a time picking because I wanted something that was memorable, but also kind of fit the style is just like, it's tough.So you, you also have a really good name by the way. I meant to compliment you on that. Yeah. So ramble by the river came from, I wanted to use the word ramble just cause I think it's a catchy word and I was like that song ramble and man, and I think it's the, all my brothers, I don't know. We'll get a copyright infringement if we sing it.But Yeah, from there, I buy a river, I tried it out and I liked the logos and I went with it. Plus I always kind of felt like this is my training wheels into the world of podcasting [00:09:00] because I, when I started, I didn't know how to podcast, I just started. And so I set a goal of accomplishing 50 interviews in the first year, and I needed a show to do that with, so that's how ramble by the river was born.De'Vannon: And so it is, I'm so glad that you gave birth to it. I bet you looked great when you were preggers.And so I I love everything that you said, and I, I feel like that even though like the guests that come on, a lot of our shows that may not have. Have like a, I want to be like a doctor, have some sort of acronym behind their name to necessarily justify their experience. I feel like that the guests experience is the most justifiable of all, because a person's lived experience to me, outweighs a PhD or an MD [00:10:00] or anything like that.And so for somebody to come on my show, I don't care if they have, you know, you know, a PhD or anything like that, they have to have had, you know, gone through something themselves, at least, you know, especially like from episode nine, moving forward, because that's when I took over, you know, production and recruiting and everything myself.And so because that's what I want to know about, you know, that's, my audience is trying to hear, you know, know, you know, which one did you go for? We need, we need to hear about that because people will. When they people feel like they can relate to a person, you know, then they will listen to them. And it's easy to relate to somebody who's been divorced.Who's been kicked out of church. Who've been slapped across the face, or who's had the whip of bitch ass at some point, you know, it check all Jeff: those boxes. De'Vannon: Right. And so, as opposed to somebody with a PhD, because less people [00:11:00] have PhDs than do, but Mo everybody has had a bad day, you know, or has gone through a terrible experience or has, you know, a little skeleton tap dancing in their closet.They may not want somebody to know about, you know, or hadn't learned exactly how to kill that bitch yet, or just let him out so he can just twirl for fuck's sake. And so that, and then I'll also like, like he referred to podcasts as a time capsule. I agree. I felt like every episode we record. When we write blogs books, we keep a website, you know, those things that write music and things like that, you know, those intangible electronic things will outlive us, you know?And so once we you know, as long as the earth remains, you know, these platforms are going to be here because there's so much money in it. And so much people doing it, you know? You know, so once we're all like dead and spirits floating around doing whatever the fuck [00:12:00] spirits do you know, this work will still be here.So in future generations, when people come along, who is going, going through the same shit, cause everything kind of seems to happen these generation over again, you know, then they'll still be able to hear what we have to say. And our voices will be heard. We are eternal until there is no more earth. And so to agree, that's a great reason to have started your podcast.And I'm glad that you have it. Jeff: Yeah. I mean, you could go to a Tupac concert in 2018 because they recorded his voice. They recorded his, his physical form and, and they're reproducing it digitally. That's that's exactly the same thing. It's just, we're trying to become immortal essentially. De'Vannon: And, and, you know, and I appreciate the transparency because, you know, you didn't go have your personal experiences, which we're about to get into some of those and go, you know, achieve your successes with that, and then go [00:13:00] run off and have your happy, successful life, you know, taking time to talk about that, to help somebody else.That's a huge thing because you know, like in the Bible, you know, Jesus heals those seven lepers, I think it was. And then most of them skipped off, you know, where joystick and seedsman what they had received, but only one came back to give things. And so to me, every episode, you know, you record is a way of giving thanks, you know, for the blessings that you have and everything like that.So I look at it as a project of gratitude. Jeff: That's so exactly what it is. I pray every time I do one of these things before I do it, but I just, I will know what to say. And if I don't know what to say, that it comes off at least as funny so that people can get some benefit out of it. But yeah, I think that a lot of what I do every day is, is practicing gratitude.I love my life and I didn't always love it. And so I appreciate the contrast. Okay. De'Vannon: Absolutely. And we're going to talk about [00:14:00] your your family gratitude list and stuff like that later on. So for now I want to get I want to get more into your history, like with the cherishes, you and I both have an interesting relationship with the church and.This concept of Christianity here in America. Now I know that you were kicked out for some things that happened. I want you to tell her story. Jeff: Yeah, happy to. So kicked out is probably a little bit strong of a term. I don't want to talk down on the church at all or anything, but essentially I had been teaching a Sunday school class for kids for a few years, and I don't want to my own horn, but I was fucking good at it.And so, you know, just showing up every Sunday, just kind of killing it as a Sunday school teacher, the kids love me. I really I was doing the Lord's work and. My marriage was not going great, which, you know, wasn't surprising to anybody, including the pastor who married us, [00:15:00] who subsequently asked me to please not teach Sunday school class anymore because I was getting divorced and he thought it was going to set a bad example for the kids.And I, I disagreed, I still disagree because that was like my church family. And it as even I tried so hard, I was, I was understanding and I just, it hurt my feelings. It really, it really kinda was just like thing, I guess. I, because I had thought that I was providing more value to the church family than just like sending an example of a, what a good marriage looks like.There are other facets of the human experience that I, that I felt like I was still doing. Okay. That one part of my life was falling apart. And I guess that was enough to make me not. Role model. I don't know. It wasn't, I, the justification for it was, was not really my concern. After that point, a lot of people were like, oh, you should have fought that or gone back, but it wasn't, I don't want to [00:16:00] do that.I don't want to force myself into any place. It's like this podcast, if you don't like it, turn it off. I don't care. I'm just trying to be me. But and I have stuff to share. So I that's, I was trying to do that and it didn't work out. So I haven't been back to that church since, but I heard, I hear good things about it.I know it's grown and I hope I wish them the best, but yeah, it was a sad, sad moment. I haven't really found a good church home since then. And that sucks. I like, I think the community is, is crucial and church, whether you're fully onboard with the faith aspects of it or not. It's a really good exercise in, in human connection.I think like even going to church that you don't traditionally follow the religion. It's it's. Interesting experience to put yourself through that. Cause they're weird. De'Vannon: Cause they're weird. Yeah. They're weird. Jeff: If you go into a church and you've never been to church before and they're speaking in tongues or, or they're wearing dresses [00:17:00] and given piece of price, I mean there's some baffling shit going on at church and I grew up with it.So I didn't realize how silly it seems to those who haven't been indoctrinated, but look at it through fresh eyes and you're like, okay, this is all equally baffling, every religion. So it's like, I don't know. I'm, I'm really not critical of people's faith because everybody's just searching for meaning and people find it in different places.De'Vannon: I'm sorry that happened to you, Jeff. And although you, you don't want to talk bad about your church. I will, they can eat a Dick and, and I would extend the middle finger to them. Jeff: That's not Christ-like De'Vannon: no, it isn't, but you know, I'm not a spirit and I'm not Jesus Christ. So I don't, I'm not being Christ like all the time.So I just stepped in the flesh for just a moment. Now I'm back out of the flesh. Jeff: And so I appreciate you sticking up for me. I De'Vannon: won't do it. [00:18:00] I know like, you know, you know, there are people out there who. You know, maybe they don't cuss as much as I do or they won't do, you know, things like what I just did with flipping off churches and what not.And I'm happy to do it for them, you know, because it just needs to be done sometimes. And you know, I'm aware of my spirituality and my power in Christ and the holy ghost and all that. And I'm also very grounded in the fact that I'm still a human and I just, you know, you know, every now and then, you know, a bitch's ass might need to get up and they might need to get flipped out.I flipped out out or something like that. And I'll pray about it later, you know, and then it'll be all right. And so, and I feel great. And so this is a huge thing that I want to take some time that to, to marinade here because. There's many people who've been kicked out of churches. We've only seen a few of the accounts on the news for various reasons.You say kicked out as a strong term. But like when [00:19:00] I was, when I was technically removed from ministry at Lakewood, because they found out that I was LGBTQ and therefore unfit to serve in the adult choir or around children anymore, you know, then nobody specifically said, don't come back to the church, but Jeff, you know, the feeling, once you throw somebody out of something that meant so much to them, like you said, I just wanted to come and share my gifts.You know, there was, you know, and now I can't do that here. You dislike it. It's like getting a divorce. It's like, it's like being married and getting a divorce, but then trying to stay in the same house. Jeff: Yes exactly. It's a De'Vannon: rejection, you know, you're not going to do that. Now. Now the church in their arrogance thinks that Y you, you, you probably can, if not, should just come on back and sit through a service, you know, like nothing's changed, but everything's changed because they made you look like a heretic, [00:20:00] you know, in bad and terrible.And they took one thing that they didn't like, and they let that overshadow all of the great and fabulous things that you had been doing, you know, nevermind your work ethic, consistency, qualifications. And actually, it seems like you were called by God to be doing this. As you said, you were damn good at it.Well, the only way that happens is if the Lord is with you, you know? And so, you know, in terms of like your effectiveness and actually reaching people and connecting, like, it sounds like you were, and so. Humans decided that you have reached a, a stumbling block in your life or at impasse or a rough spot.This is the priority. And this now defines you what fuck them, because they don't get to pick that. But see, this happens to a lot of people. And like you said, you never really found a good church again. You know, it was a [00:21:00] long, long road. Like, I don't know, 10, 15 fucking years before I found what I was comfortable.You know? And again, that sort of break up of is, is catastrophic to somebody, you know, in, in the, not only us, but also people, our friends who have watched us get kicked out of allies, both, both LGBTQ allies were even friends of straight people like yourself. Who've been kicked out. They go, it didn't happen to them, but they're like, look at what you did to my friend.I'm not fucking with churches either. You know? And so. What would you say to people who who have been kicked out of churches before removed from ministries, you know, in the, in the friends and allies of those who have watched this happen to people who they know are good people and could, could not understand why the church was being so antagonistic, Jeff: I would say to try to find God where you can.And like I said before, that does [00:22:00] not look the same to everybody. And God doesn't even mean the same thing to everybody. To me, God means one thing. But to my, like my mom, it means a completely different thing. And so I was raised very. I, I was hesitate when I say I was raised very religiously, but I was, my mom is a very religious woman and she believes completely in the doctrine of the Christian Church and not the Catholic church, which is like the old Christian Church, but like contemporary American Christian Church.And it's where I grew up in a, it was called well, let's see, it was a community church, but. Denominationally. It was kind of like an evangelical, so it was big and showy and the music was everything. And lots of speaking in tongues and it's, so I go back and forth on that. So because of that early exposure to that kind of culture, I am extremely hesitant [00:23:00] to get involved in any kind of group hypno, hypnosis, bullshit.Like everybody puts your hands up or everybody do that. I don't like any of it. I'll barely do the wave at a football game. Like you try to get me to do a chant with hand motions, fuck off. I'm not doing it. You're not hypnotizing me because I understand psychology. That's what's really going on is you're you're engaging in a map mass hypnosis.And so when you do that and you're bonding your consciousness with all the. People in the collective consciousness, under a banner of some kind of greater purpose, it's extremely powerful. And you open yourself up to all kinds of manipulation. And so it's just, that's not to say that every time those tools are used to open your operating system, that doesn't mean that every time that happens it's for malicious means, but it does mean that that's always a possibility.So I'm skeptical. And when they, you know, people are, I love to see people [00:24:00] praising God and worshiping and stuff, but when they bring out the basket of ribbons and the ladies are twirling them and, and your people are speaking in tongues and falling over and stuff, it, I start to really feel uncomfortable.So yeah, I don't know. I, I can appreciate spirituality. And at the same time, I understand that it has a lot of power to control and. Corrupt people. So I'm really skeptical of, of really, really highly emotional groups of people, I guess, is probably the best way to say it. On the other side of that my father was not a highly religious man.He tried really hard, but deep down, he's kind of a thug and kind of at times criminal and just, he was kind of an abused child and he led a very difficult life and he taught me the way of the world was to protect yourself and everybody's out to get you. You've got to learn how to fuck them before they fuck you.And [00:25:00] so I had this strange, just the juxtaposition of the turn, the other cheek mentality coming from my mom where, you know, put yourself last, be humble. The. Be humble, be the servant to the world. And then on my dad's side, it was like, take care of yourself, protect your family, get yours. Don't let somebody make you their bitch, just, you know, get out there and set yourself up for success as a human being.And so those are two very far points from each other on the whole spectrum of existence. And so I landed smack dab in the middle. So I feel like I'm kind of a unique perspective and it definitely shaped the way I see the church. And to get back to your question, but what, the way I would tell a person to handle that situation where they've, they've seen people in the church doing things that they shouldn't have done, or they, somebody they trusted let them down or they're.I mean, [00:26:00] there is always going to be those times because we're all human and we all make mistakes. And as much as we want to think of religious figures as above suspicion, they're fucking not. They're just humans too. And they get into flesh and they like titties and they liked sex and he liked drugs and they like all the same stuff we like.And they honestly, they like stuff. That's a little bit naughty, just like humans. Everybody's a human. So I really try to separate God from the church, from the people in the church, because I think all three of those are very separate and distinct things. So I would, I would just suggest that people look for God somewhere where he is, because he's not in every church.And he is in every, I mean, he's in everything. He is a, is a bad term, but God is everywhere. God is what holds the universe together. And that's what I believe in. I think that if you open your heart and look for God, you can find him in very unexpected. De'Vannon: I concur.[00:27:00] You don't necessarily need a physical building in order to communicate with the Lord.As the Bible says, in my understanding that he is as near as a very air that we breathe. And so there's no need to go searching about, you know, he's already there, it's a matter of your awareness and tapping into his presence. And then I agree, God is not in every church in the sense that his love is not necessarily being expressed there through the people in charge and running, things like that.So Jeff: some, you could feel it and in the building, you can feel it when you're there. Like you can tell when the, like, this group of people is United to help the world. And sometimes this group of people doesn't give a fuck about what's going on outside these walls. De'Vannon: Right in. So, and like, so y'all what Jeff was saying about like hypnosis and stuff like that has to do with.How overwhelming all the different practices and things like that can be from my study of [00:28:00] hypnosis and stuff like that. Basically when you have a whole lot of summit, when you have a whole lot of different shit going on your critical mind, which is only like 12% of the brain, like your subconscious mind is like 88% of it.It's like way more than what you might think. But when you overwhelm the critical mind, you know, you stop being so critical and then you just kind of start accepting a bunch of shit. So when you have the people speaking in tongues and twirling about in the music it's playing and you've already got a whole platform set up and the people are up there on stage.And so though, you're, they're already looking down at you and you're already looking up at them. You don't really have much of a, you know, a critical mind left by the, by the time all that is done. And like he's saying, you're in a state of what is known as hypnosis at that point, when your critical mind has been broken down enough for you to be on the receiving end of stuff, that.Otherwise be more critical of, sometimes it can be used good. And the places where the love of God actually. And sometimes it's not in [00:29:00] places where it isn't and perhaps they might use that to manipulate even all kinds of things, give given money, you know, especially stuff like that. You know, you just, you do have to be careful for, you know, in the falling out, falling out in the quote unquote Ms.Spirit shit. I've been in unfortunate situations before where they're happy. Who like literally tried to put their hand on people and make them lay on the ground. You know, stuff like look, the holy ghost is real. There is a version of that. That's actually authentic, but those free people, people are gifted like that.And the Lord is using them. Them don't even have to touch people. They're going to fall out like that. And the Lord is going to slay somebody in the spirit as it is called it. Ain't going to have to be forced. And then you're not going to have people like I've seen. Making people talk in tongues and telling them to do it, you know, and then dancing in the spirit and stuff like that is real too.But then you've got sister, Sarah who [00:30:00] every damn Sunday at 11 o'clock that she go up and down the aisle, you know, like clockwork, we not talking about that. Bitch has Jeff: got a word again.Of course De'Vannon: she has a fucking word. She always had a damn word.So the Sarah needs to go sit her ass down somewhere because this is Sarah is addicted, is addicted to church and doesn't realize it. And there's so much ego and pride tied up into all of the reasons whyY people. You know, fill the need to do these things. But community, like you said, is a huge part of it. We were going to seek a group of people, no matter what the bucket is, you know, and in your podcasts, I listened to you say how you, you don't have been kind of alone or in life and stuff like that. And yet, you know, now are who you talk, you know, more [00:31:00] about you know, like your connectedness you know, and stuff like that. You haven't, you know, you haven't always felt as so connected in life and your podcast. I was listening to you say how you used to push people away because you thought they would threaten your autonomy. And connected connectedness is so important. Now I hear the importance of it in the things that you say now yet you've experienced so much rejection in life.How have you managed to, to maintain your connection with people during the pandemic is what I'm curious about? Jeff: Well, I think primarily the pandemic especially kind of helped me to realize that prior the priority that needs to be placed on connection. Because like I said before, I was just spending a lot of time by myself and it wasn't fulfilling.And even when cool stuff happens or you see neat stuff or anything, that is like what we think of as a genuine. [00:32:00] Rich experience is just dramatically reduced by being alone. You don't, you don't, it's not the same. You don't form the same kind of memories when you're alone sharing it with another person is important or another group of people or whatever.But yeah, so the podcast really helped me because it gave me an excuse to not only invite somebody to my house, to just talk, but an excuse to ask real questions and to talk about something beyond the weather and which vaccine you got De'Vannon: and on your podcast, I thought it was very bold and very courageous of you to get into body image issues that you've had in the past.You know, a lot of men, especially men who identify as heterosexual, don't just go around, you know, talking about the way they feel about their body, you know? And so. I want you to walk us [00:33:00] through that. Cause you know, the, the issue that you had, you know, with your body, since you were a teen and the way you feel about your your dad bought now.Jeff: Yeah. So body image is, is a big thing for me and it always has been, it started with. When I was real young, I was very proud of my body because I was faster than most kids. I was a little bit bigger than most of the other kids taller. Like I liked, I liked my body a lot. It did well for me. And then around fourth grade, I put on some weight and started not loving my body so much.And at that point I really, it became kind of a, an unhealthy relationship between me and my body. And I, I would think a lot of negative thoughts and just regularly look in the mirror and just pick out all the stuff that I hated and that I would love to change. And I would fantasize about how great life would be if I could just be not quite as choppy or if my skin was a little bit better.[00:34:00] All those versions of me were so much happier and they were beloved by the world and all this things that are just fantasy and. When I hit, you know, later in high school, I started getting in pretty good shape and it, it happened through sports. I was always involved in sports throughout. And, but when you're younger, though, you can, you can be involved in sports and be athletic and still be kinda chubby.It's not that hard just because I didn't know anything about nutrition. And during those years I also developed some pretty unhealthy relationships to food, which I still struggle with. Now I'm a sugar junkie, like crazy. And it's something that I go to when I'm really stressed. Something that I go to when I'm feeling happy and I want to celebrate.It's just like, it's, it's, it's a weird thing because it's something that you do actually need to survive. It's food, but it's sugar in particular is not a, not a necessary ingredient. It's not iodine. Like you don't have to have it to live. So it's, and it's, I mean, that's [00:35:00] debatable, I guess, because of like the glucose, you need to fuel your cells, but you can do that.Ketosis, but that's a whole nother topic, but yeah. So as I got into my college years, I started getting in really, really good shape to where I was very much proud of my body. And from that point on, I really kind of was able to let go of the shame that I had kind of acquired and carried with me since childhood of just not loving myself, of just being afraid to let people see me with my flaws and everything.And I started realizing like, this is who I am. I don't need to sit there and fantasize about changing and wishing I was different because that's wasted energy. This that's, that's not who I am. This is who I am. So I got to love this. And now I really do. And I don't mind having a dad bod, I will, I will say I do wish it was a little bit tighter.I'll tight. I'd like to tighten up a bit, but it's hard to find the time I feel like lately I've been choosing between. Podcasting [00:36:00] family time working out and preparing healthy meals is like extra, but it's, it's hard. It's, there's just so many things to do so many ways to spend your time in this world, but it's definitely important to me.De'Vannon: Well, thank you for sharing that Jeff, you know, these bodies are not going to last forever anyway. And so, you know, I think working on your legacy, you know, with your podcast is spending time with your family, you know, you know, would come before that because you're already doing, you know, making sounds like making healthy meal choices, you know?And so as long as you know, your blood lab results and test results are good in terms of like, and you feel good, you know, in terms of like how everything looks and everything like that. Well, you know, are, you know, I like to. I like to, I really just view us, you know, you know, temporary physical beings. And so, you know, getting spiritually fit [00:37:00] to me is more important than getting physically fit.Now I do work out and I have a gym in my home and everything like that, but, you know, if it comes down to it on any given day you know, I'm going to skip the gym and do some sort of spiritual work instead, you know, if I don't have time because once I die and everything, if I have a six-pack or not, which I don't, but if I, if I did, you know, that ain't gonna, that ain't going to go with me, you know, until the spirit around, whereas my spiritual fitness will, you know, cause how we live in this.Tends to have an impact as I understand that on the next one. And so I agree. Jeff: I think that actually ties right in with the fact that it's all one being. So like, I feel my best personally, when I am physically fit and spiritually fit, but I have been doing the work on both ends. That's when I feel like I've kind of reached my pinnacle and that's a hard, that's a hard place to stay because it, you feel like you can just top all over any direction and it takes so much work just to maintain, [00:38:00] but that's a, that's probably like the peak is when you're, you're feeling good on, on both fronts.De'Vannon: Absolutely. And speaking of your. Of your family. I want you to tell us about how you do your family gratitude list. You know, coming from a history of sobriety and recovery out, that's where I was exposed to gratitude lists. When you recovering from various addictions, they tell you to focus on being thankful.You say Jeff, on your podcasts at what you put your attention into is where your energy goes. And so you try to focus on what you're thankful for and not just you, I believe y'all passed your gratitude list around every day or something like that. So tell us about your family gratitude lists. Jeff: Yeah, so yeah.Gratitude is. One of the most powerful tools for improving your own mental health is especially if you're feeling down or like you've been rejected by society or that you're not getting what's owed to you. It's really easy to fall into those traps, [00:39:00] essentially, a psychological traps that we set for ourselves that are designed to help us to propel ourselves into another stage of life, like in a traditional environment, it would be a good thing.It'd be advantageous for you to feel like maybe you were owed more because that'll lead you to pursue more. But in this world of abundance, that at least I am operating in. I know not everybody is as privileged as, as I have been, but it is really about. Looking towards the future. Do you want to see, and really along the way, being able to look around you and say like, maybe this isn't where I want to end up, but while I'm here, I can definitely appreciate the value in it.And so what my family does is we will send a text. We have a group text that's me and my kids and my wife, and one of us, whoever has the idea. First, we'll send a group text. It just says today, I'm grateful for blank, blank, blank, and give three things. And it [00:40:00] can be anything it can be today. I'm grateful for blue skies pros and you know, a newly paved road, like random stuff.And I'll try to do random stuff so that it gets my kids thinking. That you don't have to just be grateful for your X-Box and the new puppy. You can be grateful for mundane things, and that is almost more powerful sometimes because it helps us to remember that we're always blessed. We're always lucky to be here.It's it's probably the probability of us existing is so small that it's really incredible that we do. So you can be grateful for that. And the psychology behind grateful attitudes is really pronounced. Everybody can understand it kind of implicitly, but when you actually look at the research, it has a huge effect on overall subjective wellbeing, just to recognize the things you're grateful for.De'Vannon: I agree, and it just feels [00:41:00] better, you know, and we all want to feel good. And it's something that changes, you know, in the metaphysical and more. You know, progressive thinking, you know, you know, we talk about like vibrations and things like that. And you know, like how do you focus on negative stuff? And that lowers your vibrations and how this contended to close doors for you in life.Perhaps you won't receive as many blessings because of the negative energy that you can be putting out. You know, when you're focusing on, what's not working as opposed to what is working and gratitude lists helped to reorient us and to not. And be overwhelmed with the negativity because sometimes on bad stuff, does that happen, we can make a really big deal out of them not to take any importance out of it, but then we can make it such a big deal that we lose sight on the fact that there is still good stuff going on in.So I love what y'all are doing with the [00:42:00] gratitude with, because it'd be pretty, you know, hard to let that, for that to happen. When each and every day you reminding yourself of, of the life that you have in your life. Jeff: Yeah. And sometimes it's real work. So when things are going badly and kind of, you don't realize it all the time, but you almost like it.You almost want to let it play out. So if you're having a bad morning and you know, there was ice on your windshield and the car wouldn't start and, you know, there was traffic and all this stuff, you're just, you're in that I'm in a shitty mood zone. And then you get a message on your phone from your daughter that says today, I'm grateful for clean school bus.You know, puppy dogs and jolly ranchers it, you have to respond to that with love. You. Can't just be like, oh yeah, well, I'm grateful that I don't have to be that. I don't know. I'm, I'm grateful for the ravages of old age. So I don't have to endure this life much longer. You can't do that. You have to respond to it, love it.And then all of a sudden [00:43:00] bang you're back in that gratefulness mindset. So doing it on a daily basis, it's not always just, you know, fluffy, good feelings. It's sometimes it's actual work and that's the times when it's the most meaningful. De'Vannon: And you said it another way in your podcast when, and you tied it into like how somebody maybe offended you and you had a choice and they apologize to, you know, let it go and move on or to follow the negativity, which is what you were saying.Like, if you're having a bad day and somebody counters that with positivity or you. Take the positive path that they're offering you or somebody that's offended you the apology, or are you going to press for, with the negativity and you sent the pick of the choice, that's going to lead to the best result for you not to pick the choice it's going to make you feel the best just in the next few moments.And so can you speak to us how the D the temptation of the shortsightedness to, why would we want to use it? [00:44:00] And you, you kind of already said it, you know, sometimes we want to chase the negative. Why have we become addicted to it? Is it doesn't then it's a long, that is what we're more accustomed to than being positive.What's Jeff: the temptation. Well, I think on a few different levels, you can think about it. So have you ever heard of the Mo the marshmallow test? This is a study that they did. I mean, they've done it since the fifties, I think, but they take children who are notoriously poor at self-regulation. So they, they would love to prefer immediate gratification over.Prolonging gratification for an extended benefit. So in this test, they, they sit the kids down. The kids can be anywhere from, I don't know, three or four to 10, actually, it doesn't matter. You can do it with adults, but it wouldn't be as interesting. And they say, here you go. Here's one marshmallow. And they plop a marshmallow down on the table in front of them and they say, we're going to leave the room and we're going to be gone for just a couple of minutes.And when we come back, If you have been able, if you have left the [00:45:00] marshmallow here, we're going to give you two marshmallows. You're allowed to eat the marshmallow while we're gone. If you, if you eat it, then you don't get the second marshmallow. But if you can wait, we'll give you two. And then they, they leave the room and the kid is in there by themselves, looking at the marshmallow and they film the kid.And so you get to see them. Some of the kids will cover their eyes. Some of the kids will pick it up and stare at it. Some of the kids will like cover their mouth and just, they do all kinds of like physical behaviors to express this desire that they're having internally to eat that marshmallow. And so like very few of the kids are able to hold off for the whole five minutes and get a second marshmallow.And they have found that the ones that do the ones that are able to delay gratification, go on to have a lot more success as adults in later life. And so I think that that is that little phenomena right there. Extend what, what, how we think about ourselves? Because in that specific circumstance that you just mentioned, where [00:46:00] you've just gotten into a fight, say it's with your spouse or somebody who you're close to and you you're mad.You're like, you're all, you're in the flesh. You're mad. Your emotions are wild and you have a choice because, okay, let's say they've apologized and they're trying to resolve it. They're not mad anymore. But you were in, you were the one who was in the right. So you won the fight. So you feel like you kind of are justified in staying mad a little longer.Then you have that choice. Do I just let it resolve and get over it or do I, you know, punish them a little bit? Let, let them know that I'm still mad and you have to kind of zoom out from your own experience of that moment and realize like, what are the consequences of both of those decisions? What are the consequences of staying mad and punishing this person?Well, it's going to continue the fight. It could hurt them enough to where then they're going to feel like they need to come back at me. It's going to just continue conflict. And it's going to continue this feeling of discomfort that I have because anger is not a pleasant feeling. And [00:47:00] it's, it's something that you should want to get rid of.But for some reason we kind of like it. And so, or you can have the choice of humbling yourself and, you know, ending, ending the conflict. But that feeling is not great either, because then we have this weird thing of like, Discontinuity. If that's the right word where you, you almost, as a person, you want your consciousness to feel like we're making smooth transitions from feeling to feeling in moments a moment so that we, because that's how we narrativize our existence.And it doesn't feel right when you just cut off that anger and say like, I'm not going to engage in this. I'm moving on, forgive and forget done over. And so it's tough. And like, everybody is different. I'm pretty quick to forgive. Once I decide it's over, I'm just, I let it go, but that's not going to happen for everybody.And it takes some practices. De'Vannon: It does say practice and sometimes counseling. I used to be very vindictive like that. You know, somebody did meet something, especially, especially like significant other, oh, [00:48:00] hail now, you know, it was going to be some shit, you know, until I said it wasn't going to be some shit and that was going to be hell to pay.But you know what, that, that gives us power over people. You know, when we feel like we have, when they, when they've heard us and then they, then people that have heard us before and we may need additional healing and stuff like that. But over time and through, you know, counseling and, you know, studying hypnotherapy myself and everything, which you, a lot of things you say, come, come directly out of the hypnotherapy school that who, you know, that I not saying you learned it from them or, you know, but I'm saying the, the, the knowledge process, you know, intersects with mine, you know, on many different levels.And it's absolutely fascinating. Oh, the Jeff: psychology background. De'Vannon: Okay. That's why then probably because hitting the therapist worked with you know, some running hand in tandem with a psych psychology psychologist. Do you have a psychology degree? Jeff: Yeah, I do. I do. Yeah. I studied it for five years. [00:49:00] I took the long way around undergrad.I studied all kinds of stuff. I just really enjoyed college. And so it took me five years and got the psychology degree and didn't really have the ambition to pursue an academic career. It just seemed like a kind of a hard route.De'Vannon: Okay. That's good stuff, man. Okay, so let's switch gears so you can talk about drugs, some drugs, man. And and we're going to talk about, we're going to kind of close the shout with your mushroom experiment that you did and the crack shack that I really want to hear all the juicy details of. But since we're talking about drugs, I want to take a moment to talk about what's going on in Portland, since you reside, not far from that area, you know, they legalized, well, they decriminalized all drugs.They're like back in February, meaning that they won't throw you in jail for it. They're not saying it's a great idea, but they're saying you shouldn't go to jail for it. I [00:50:00] agree with that. Everybody seems to be doing well and doing happy, but I want to hear your thoughts on it, especially since you live right there.Jeff: Yeah, sure. So, well, first of all, the whole strategy of drug decriminalization, it gets a lot of press. And I think a lot of people don't fully understand it in context because it's, it's, people are very reactionary about it and it's very taboo and we have all, anyone in our generation has been brought up during the drug war.And so, I mean, we're at war, that's the enemy. We're not going to decriminalize the enemy, but it's, it's fallacy. The drugs are not entities, their tools and their chemical tools that do a very specific things. And it's okay to take advantage of those tools under the right circumstances, the problems come about when people are not educated or when people don't understand what they're doing, or they don't know the history of what they're dealing with or just, I mean, there are so many possible pitfalls, which are the [00:51:00] re, which is the reason why we need to have good education about the subject and the idea that we are.Millions of people. I don't know how many people, a lot of people in prison for these nonviolent drug offenses just baffles me because it seems like such a waste of money. I don't, I'm sure a quick Google would probably reveal the number, but it's gotta be a lot of money per day, per inmate. And when these people were just trying to do something that just made them feel a little less shitty, that seems like a bad system to me.And obviously there are potential threats to assist them that doesn't have criminal penalties for drug offenses, but I think it could be designed in a way that really helps society instead of hurts society and could save a lot of money. Really, my whole, my main motivation for like taking this opinion is fiscal.I think that the idea of, of housing that many people for something that. Just, we're not, they're not protecting and they're not protecting society from these people. They're [00:52:00] punishing these people for doing something that was only meant to affect them. Now that's just for individual users to say the same about cartels and people who are managing massive drug rings and you know, basically black market stuff.That's, that's different. And that's, that is criminal because it's spreading around to other people. And I don't know, I think regulating that would eliminate that problem and create a regulated industry. Much like has happened in the states where marijuana has been legalized. I used to have to get into the car with strangers to go buy weed.I sat the meat, scuzzy, dirty people in Walmart, parking lots, get in the car, go down the road, all of the stuff. I don't want to do that shit. Nobody should have to, especially not as a teenager, like the, this it's dangerous. And in the world we live in now. Young people don't have to do that. Obviously teenagers shouldn't be doing any drugs, period.That was a joke, but I was doing them when I was a teenager. I was making bad choices and it's because I didn't [00:53:00] have education about what I was getting into education would be a huge step towards creating a system that actually works. And I think the one that we are operating in now, doesn't because people are still getting high and not always in a safe environment and not always under safe circumstances.And I think there could be a lot more just benefits extracted from the system rather than nothing but drawbacks. De'Vannon: Yeah. I've gotten in the car with my fair share of scuzzy, dirty people to go get crack and meth and you know, and everything else. I thank God that I'm still alive because I mean, it was bad.I would just find any like random person, like in the hood. At some point you can, especially since I used to be a drug dealer and a heavy user, I could tell who's getting high and who isn't. So all you gotta do is go down the street and you. That bitch knows where to find some shit and they ain't got shit to do anyway.So all you gotta do. And every time they'll get that, just getting in the [00:54:00] car, I think one person, maybe one night didn't, but other than that, a hundred percent of the time. So I'm all for illegal legalization tax that if you will, I don't give a damn, we should all be able to go down the fucking drugs or us and just, which is what I used to call my drug business back in the day.And you know, and just get whatever the fuck you need and do go home and leave her. But those fuck alone, Jeff: but it should have labels on it. And we should be able to tell where it was made and we should be able to call somebody if it's bad, or we should be able to not worry about going to jail. If you overdose, like there should be a system in place to protect people.People are going to get high either way. De'Vannon: Yeah. It's not about to stop, you know, but that's just conservative. You know, politicized who politicize that, you know, in the beginning, in the beginning, whoever that president was, I think that that whole war on drugs thing to either get reelected or to stay in, to stay in power with some sort of political gain, it Jeff: was a lot about was [00:55:00] controlling black people and Mexicans, the government knew that.So at least with marijuana, marijuana was highly associated with like jazz musicians and Mexican laborers in the south. And the president at the time, I forget which president it was, but the director of the DEA, I believe was Harry Anslinger. And he was quoted as saying like, we are going to do this to control these minority populations.And then, so they launched this whole misinformation campaign called reefer madness and, you know, convince a lot of people have some really big myths about drugs that are still, you know, pretty persistent to this day. But there's a lot of, a lot of misinformation out there and it's intentional. De'Vannon: It is, but we're going to get the victory over that.I think so. Oh, so tell, tell us about your mushroom experiment back in the crack shack and tell us what the crack shack. Jeff: Sure. So [00:56:00] I grew up in a small town, had a very tight group of friends and just a few miles down from my house. My friend Ronnie lived, and there was a, they had old like garden shed out behind their house that we had converted into like a hangout.I w converted as a strong word. We put a couch in there and it was still just as dirty and gross as before, but we hate like decorated all the walls with Sharpies and stuff. It was, it was like, Exactly what you would picture for a group of high school boys hanging out and mostly just like smoking weed and drinking beer and laughing a lot.And so that was where I spent a lot of my evenings and, you know, junior, senior year of high school and we got pretty interested in drugs. So not only was that kind of like the place I did them. There's also where I went to learn about stuff. He had a computer with good internet access and not a whole lot of adult supervision, which is exactly what I was after.So we were on the Shrew, Marie and [00:57:00] Erowid and all these mushroom sites back in the early two thousands, just when the, the field of psychedelics was still very taboo and still really kind of underground completely there wasn't studies going on at Johns Hopkins at that time, like there is now. And so we're everything is, is amateur.The information is amateurish and you're never sure it's not coming out of universities. You're never sure what to trust. And so I really trusted. My friends more than I should have in my own instincts, more than I should have. So we live in a place where there's a very, very potent strain of psychedelic mushroom called as a residence is Salafi as a residence.And they were first documented around the time I was in high school by a guy named Paul Stamets. And he found that they have a much higher psilocybin content than their close relatives. So we were all pretty stoked about that. And we decided to try to find them and identify them. And we did, and [00:58:00] my friends had all tried them a couple of times already and I had yet, and I decided I was going to go for it.So I showed up ready to go and didn't really know what to expect, but I was just coming at it with an open mind. And my friend handed me one of those red solo cups, stuffed, just packed full of fresh philosophy as a residence, probably between 35 and 40 full mushrooms, which is a lot I don't I don't know how much your listeners are familiar with the dosage for mushrooms, but what's referred to as a heroic dose, we'll take you on the hero's journey.That's usually five grams of dried mushroom material. And again, each species is a little different, so it's not always the same, but this is much, much higher than that. And I had never done it before. So within 20 minutes, my whole body was. Humming, this weird warm feeling where it's like, almost like your [00:59:00] blood turns into a bunch of microscopic canaries.Like they're just fluttering about your veins and you're just feeling different than you've ever felt before. And from there you start to slide and you don't really stop for quite a while. I was listening to this band called built to spill, check them out if, if you're into that stuff. And I remember it because it was such a profound moment that stuck in my head that I've heard the song a few times since and this was again like 15 years ago.I still, it takes me right back to that moment. And I was listening to the, built to spill this song called. It's a good song and all the colors from the Sharpies on the wall with the music where like pulsating, almost like the walls were breathing and super colorful. And then like with the symbol crash at the end, and it's like fading out all the colors just like started running down the walls and bleeding together.And I was like, all right, I think they're working. And then I looked up at the ceiling and it was [01:00:00] covered with spiders and I was afraid of spiders, but for some reason I wasn't feeling real scared at the moment. And that's the last I remember of that section. I know there was probably so much more, but next thing I remember.Standing in the middle of the room and looking like everybody's laughing at me and I'm like standing in the middle of the room and I have no idea what's what's really going on. And I looked at the TV and my face was on a TV and my eyes were bright red. And I thought this was a hallucination, but what had happened was my friends were actually fucking with me and they had hooked up a video camera and put it on me and then connected it to the TV.This was probably super mean. And I sh I would never do this to anybody, but they, they were trying to freak me out and I, I, it worked so I, I was started freaking out a little bit. Yeah, that part was, was scary, but you know, not that big a deal because I was still somewhat connected to [01:01:00] reality. And shortly after that, I, I remember hearing people say, Like leading up to the trip.When you see a door, go through it. When you see a staircase, follow it, like just do whatever the trip wants and open yourself up to possibility. And because if you don't, you're going to have a bad trip. So I took that little too literally. And when I felt the urge to urinate, I was like, just go with it, bro.Do it. This is what the trip wants. It won't, you're not peeing yourself in real life, but I was, and I paid myself in the middle of the room and that's probably the comic relief of the whole story. Because I was there with like a girl that I had just started dating and like didn't really even know her well enough to see me in a Somewhat vegetive state.And she had to change me. She said it was to like trying to change the 200 pound baby. Like it was, it was, it was terrible. But so shortly after I was put into some [01:02:00] fresh clothes, I lost connection with my body completely. And I, I experienced what I refer to as ego death. I could not remember is not even the right word because there's, there was no memory warehouse available, period.My, I, it's not that I just didn't remember who I was. I didn't even know that I was a person. I was just a, an energy field and I was in open space and I was going through different dimensions where sometimes it was all black. Sometimes it was like every color and sound and. Experience I could ever fathom.And other times it was all white and blank and it was just like the deep, deep layers of consciousness of what it means to be alive and to be a human. And I saw nothing. I got deep enough to where I had gone through all of the, the astral plane, [01:03:00] where everything exists in a possibility. And I had penetrated out the other side of that and entered a realm of nothingness.And at that moment, I just, I couldn't believe how Careless. I had been to, to put myself here because at this moment, I didn't know if I was ever coming back. I had lost all concept of time. So it's moment to moment. Every moment is its own. And it's just, it's, it's impossible to put it into words that accurately describe the experience.It's it's, that's why so many people feel driven to pursue it, I think. But yeah, I just, I realized that everything we have is so, so precious and so rare in, in terms of, of all that there is, and can be this, this small shred of existence that we can actually touch and taste and experience and feel and live in, in three dimensions in time.And it's beautiful [01:04:00] and it is the most beautiful thing it's, it's like, it's everything. So I. I don't know, it's just, this is the ultimate knowledge that we're lucky to be here. Just permeated my whole being. And I felt very connected to God and to the universe. And at this point I didn't even care anymore that I wasn't sure if I was a human or a doorknob.I just didn't, it didn't matter. I was just lucky to be experiencing an experience. And so from there it slowly pull me back little by little one, one click at a time, two into, you know, three-dimensional reality and into my timeline. And I slowly learned again, who I was. I remember sitting there with my friend.And this is like eight hours after ingesting the mushrooms so long enough for them to have mostly worn off. But there, I was just kind of buttoned back up and he was like, quizzing me on objects in my life that I would definitely know, [01:05:00] like he was, I, I, for some reason, I remember him asking me about football a lot, cause I was playing football at the time and he was asking me like the different positions and what, what a football was.And I remember being really excited when I remember what football was, because I couldn't have done that a few minutes earlier. And so eventually I reassembled the collection of memories and experiences that I call Jeff Nesbit and got back to live in. De'Vannon: Could you have been, do people overdose on a mushroom that you haven't been stuck in that vegetative state?Jeff: Huh? I highly doubt it. I don't, I've never heard of that happening. And if I think about it, biologically, I think your body would just metabolize the chemicals and transfer them out. So it's in order to be stuck in that state, you would have to have continuous exposure to the chemical. De'Vannon: So there's though I was thinking more in terms of like [01:06:00] brain damage, you know, Jeff: I would not say like physical brain damage, like as if you hit your head or something, but I will say that people with a pre pre

Todd: OK. Jeff, you have your own website?Jeff: Yes, I do.Todd: OK.Jeff: Very nice site!Todd: OK, can you just talk about your website?Jeff: Yes. The address, I'll give you my address first to the website.Todd: OK.Jeff: So, you can have a look at it.Todd: OK.Jeff: www.eagarbros.com. E-A-G-A-R-B-R-O-S dot C-O-M and it's eagerbros.com because my last name is Eagar, Jeff Eagar. And "Bros" is short for brothers and I have three brothers but I have two brothers that I travel with around the world, different countries with and so it's sort of like a video diary of some of the things we've seen and done on our travels with people and places. Yeah, it's interesting. It's got video, stories, and audio. It's all about people and poverty and wealth and their serenity..of the world. It's pretty good. It's pretty interesting I think.Todd: Wow! Thanks.

Todd: OK. Jeff, you have your own website?Jeff: Yes, I do.Todd: OK.Jeff: Very nice site!Todd: OK, can you just talk about your website?Jeff: Yes. The address, I'll give you my address first to the website.Todd: OK.Jeff: So, you can have a look at it.Todd: OK.Jeff: www.eagarbros.com. E-A-G-A-R-B-R-O-S dot C-O-M and it's eagerbros.com because my last name is Eagar, Jeff Eagar. And "Bros" is short for brothers and I have three brothers but I have two brothers that I travel with around the world, different countries with and so it's sort of like a video diary of some of the things we've seen and done on our travels with people and places. Yeah, it's interesting. It's got video, stories, and audio. It's all about people and poverty and wealth and their serenity..of the world. It's pretty good. It's pretty interesting I think.Todd: Wow! Thanks.

My guest today is Dr. Jeff Johnson. Jeff has been applying his background in psychology towards designing better human-computer interfaces for over forty years. He teaches computer science at The University of San Francisco, and has written several influential books on UI design. Among these, he co-authored with Kate Finn Desiging User Interfaces for an Aging Population, which is the focus of this conversation. Listen to the full conversation Download episode 46   Show notes Jeff Johnson UI Wizards Cognitive Psychology Cromemco Xerox GUI Bloopers 2.0: Common User Interface Design Dont's and Dos by Jeff Johnson Designing With the Mind in Mind: Simple Guide to Understanding User Interface Guidelines by Jeff Johnson Conceptual Models: Core to Good Design by Austin Henderson and Jeff Johnson (My notes on Conceptual Models) Designing User Interfaces for an Aging Population: Towards Universal Design by Jeff Johnson and Kate Finn Tesla Model S Interior Google Maps Some show notes may include Amazon affiliate links. I get a small commission for purchases made through these links. Read the full transcript Jorge: All right, Jeff. Welcome to the show. Jeff: Thank you! I'm glad to be here. About Jeff Jorge: I'm very excited to have you with us. For folks who don't know you, can you please tell us about yourself? Jeff: Okay. Well, I have a degree in psychology — not computer science — from Yale University and then I went on to Stanford in graduate school in psychology. So, it was Cognitive Psychology and my research at the time focused on understanding human problem-solving and human memory. But I found that after graduate school, I could either become a professor of psychology somewhere or I could go into the computer industry and help companies make their products easier to use, easier to learn. And that's what I decided to do. I worked for a small company in Silicon Valley named Cromemco and then I moved from there to Xerox, where I was working on document preparation systems. And then I worked for a series of companies in Silicon Valley and around the country, essentially doing human-computer interaction. While I was doing that, it became fairly clear to me that companies keep making the same mistakes over and over and over. And they were design mistakes that were causing their products to be not usable. And so, I eventually quit working for companies and became a consultant. I started working for myself, as a consultant, but my clients were companies. And so, I'd go from one company to another. And I continued to find that they were making the same mistakes over and over again. And it got to the point where I could start to categorize the mistakes. You know, this is mistake number 47, this is mistake number 19, et cetera. And so then eventually, in the late nineties, I wrote a book called GUI Bloopers, which was basically a catalog of all of the common mistakes that companies make in their design that cause their products to be less than usable. And that book was very popular. It basically made me well known in the field as the guy who wrote GUI Bloopers. People started calling me “Dr. Bloopers,” which I at first thought, “well, that's great.” But then I started thinking, “well, I don't want to be stereotyped as ‘Dr. Bloopers'.” So, I wrote another book, which came out in 2010, called Designing With the Mind In Mind, which was the psychological basis for user interface design principles. You know, where do user interface design principles come from? And that book was fairly popular. And so now, that book is in its third edition. The second edition came out in 2014 and the third edition has just come out now, in 2020. Since 2016, I've worked as a professor of computer science at the University of San Francisco, teaching introductory computer science, introductory programming, and also human-computer interaction. In particular, I focus my human- computer interaction course on user experience design. And, so that's… that kind of brings us up to the current day. Jorge: I want to call out that you've also authored a few other books. Among them there's one that's been particularly influential to me called Conceptual Models: Core to Good Design. Jeff: Right! Yeah, I neglected to mention that book. So, when I was working at Xerox, they had an approach to design that involved understanding the conceptual model underlying a user interface design before starting to draw screens and figure out what the appearance of the application on a screen or on a device would look like. And I very much agreed with that approach… their approach. And so, I, and Austin also — Austin Henderson, my coauthor — also worked at Xerox, and so, later the two of us started pushing that approach — the conceptual models approach — throughout the rest of the industry. We would give talks here and there, we wrote articles for magazines and at one point, a publisher approached us and said, would you be interested in writing a book on this topic? So, we did. And so, in 2011, the book Conceptual Models came out, as a result of that work. Then, also around that same time, I became interested in how do you design for older adults? That is, the technology doesn't seem to work as well for older adults. And there are a number of reasons for that. And so, I started doing some research on that and reading and understanding, and then a colleague and I formed a consulting firm that was called Wiser Usability, as in older, but wiser. And we would help companies make their products more friendly for older adults. And then we eventually wrote a book about that, that is called Designing User Interfaces for an Aging Population. And that book came out in 2017. Designing for an Aging Population Jorge: That book is part of the reason why we're talking today. Tell me about designing for an aging population; what is different about folks who are aging and other folks in the groups of people that we design for? Jeff: Okay. Well, number of things that make designing for older adults challenging. But first let me mention the irony in this situation, which is that older adults are in a sense the population that is most in need of technological assistance, because they could benefit greatly because of limited mobility, because of limited eyesight, because of limited other things, from technological assistance of various sorts. You know, the ability to shop online, the ability to do their government businesses online, getting a driver's license, and things like that. But the irony of course, is that the technology doesn't support them very well, and they struggle with using the technology — I should not say “they,” because I am myself over 60, and therefore I should say “we” older adults — but, that's the irony: they're the population that would benefit from it the most, but it actually is least usable for them. The question is why and how can we fix that? And there are a number of reasons for that. One of them is a whole collection of things that have to do with the fact that as we age, we experience certain disabilities of various types like failing eyesight, failing hearing, failing hand-eye control and other things like that, and therefore products and services that don't take that into account can become difficult for us to use. Now, the interesting thing about that is that, of course there are people of all ages who have difficulty with vision, difficulty with hearing, and difficulty with hand-eye control. And so, really making things and products more accessible to older adults actually helps them for all of us. One of the examples I like to give is that when you're on a bus and you're riding from someplace to another place, or in a car and you're riding from someplace to another place, and you are trying to use your phone to either get the weather report or to text somebody or something like that — and I'm not assuming that you're the driver, let's say you're a passenger in a car or even a bus — and you're trying to do that while the bus is shaking, now suddenly you are like a person who has hand tremors. If you've ever tried to text someone while you're in a car, then the is driving over a bumpy road, you know what I'm talking about. Those kinds of things are one of the family of reasons why older adults have trouble with technology. We just don't take them into account. But there's another set of reasons that are perhaps in my view almost more important than that category of issues that I would call accessibility issues that I've just discussed. And that is, issues that are more about how do they think? How do older adults think about the world and how do they think about doing things and accomplishing tasks? What are their models of how the world works and how the technology should work? And that is something that's quite interesting because that problem is not going to go away. The first set of problems isn't going to go away either because people are going to continue to age and experience age-related disabilities. But the second category of problems is going to remain with us too, and for a different reason. But let me back up for a second and say something: there is an argument floating in the computer and technology industry that the problems of designing for older adults are going to go away and that we don't have to worry about them forever because, they argue, that today's older adults are “digital immigrants” rather than “digital natives,” right? So, digital natives are kids of today who've grown up with technology all their lives and they know this technology and they're comfortable with it, and, it's not a problem for them. But the digital immigrants who are the current generation of what you would call “boomers,” and people who are older than that, are going to have trouble because they weren't used to this technology. The argument goes that once all the digital immigrants die, everything will be fine, and we won't have to worry about designing technology for older adults because everyone will be digital immigrants. So, that argument is false. That argument is wrong. Because technology does not stand still and people tend to get… they grow up in whatever the dominant technology is, as people are, let's say between ages 10 and 30, is the one that they become used to, and then they got stuck in that way of thinking about the world. But the world moves on. The technology moves on, okay? One way you can think of it is that the current generation of baby boomers, they grew up when the technology was analog electronic and mechanical. There were mechanical objects, and they were analog-electronic objects. Now, these boomers were born from between 1945 and let's say 1965. That means that they were 10 through 30 in the time between the sixties and the late seventies and early eighties. And so, the technology that was prevalent then was mostly analog electronic, and some mechanical technology, not so much anymore. And that's what they got used to. And that's where they got stuck. And so, the technology that came along afterwards, which was personal computers and the rise of the internet and digital electronics, was new to them. And so, they were not natives of the digital technology world. And so, today's kids… people who are born after that, the children of the boomers… I don't remember what the name of that generation is… Jorge: Maybe Gen X? Jeff: Gen X, yes. They grew up in a world where there were personal computers and the internet was just getting born. And there were online discussion groups, and AOL had become a thing and it was popular, and the web started during their maturation years. And so, they were natives of that. But the Generation X is not natives of social networking and Google and all of that. And so, basically everyone is natives of some technology and immigrants of the next wave of technology. That affects what you know, and that's going to keep going on. You know, my students at USF don't believe that they're going to get stuck in any particular digital age, but I keep telling them they're wrong. That their kids are going to be saying to them, things like this: “Mom, why do you keep Instagramming me? Nobody uses Instagram anymore. I use Brain Link. What are you talking about? Instagram?” And then the mom is going to be saying, “Oh, this Brain Link thing. I just can't get used to it.” And my students don't believe that's going to be them in 20 years. They don't believe it, but it is. They are digital natives and they're social networking natives and they're digital music natives, but they are not quantum computing natives. They are not neural-network-driven computing natives. Those are coming along, and they will be immigrants to that technology. Empathizing with Aging Users Jorge: I want to reflect back on what you've been saying here, because there's a lot of really interesting and important ideas that I want to follow up on. One is this distinction between a set of challenges that has to do with the usability of these artifacts that we're dealing with — I use the word accessibility — and the other set of challenges has to do with trying to bring a mental model that no longer fits the reality of the ecosystem that you're dealing with or the products that you're interacting with. And the thing that strikes me about those two is that the challenges for designers in both cases have to do with an ability to empathize with the people who are unlike them, who have a different set of physical or… I don't know if to say their motor skills are different and their perceptual skills are different. And also, what I'm hearing you say there at the end with the Instagram example, is the younger folks, who predominantly I see as representing the demographic that is actually designing these products, is unable to conceive of themselves operating in a world where their mental models aren't dominant. How do you overcome that? Jeff: Well, first of all, you have to teach methods, right? Methods for design that involve building empathy into the process. The methods for design should include having older adults on your team, or at least within easy access of your team. Your design team should be able to talk to a lot of older adults and run focus groups with them and show them examples of products, in fact, even before the products are designed. You know, storyboards and things like that. Or even just have discussions about what the older adults are having challenges with. That's one way to bring empathy into the design process. Another way is kind of interesting, and some companies have used this method — and in fact, this method I'm about to mention is actually called “empathic design.” What you do is you give prosthesis to the young designers that impair their perception or their movement in various ways. Some car companies have actually done this: When they're trying to design a car that will be bought by aging boomers of today, they actually will give the young car designers clothing to wear that impairs their movement. So here put on this jumpsuit that's got straps built into it that make it hard for you to turn and twist your legs and turn your head and get in and out of this car five times in 10 minutes. Please do that. And then the designer goes, “Oh yeah! These seats are too low.” Or, “This door doesn't open wide enough.” You know, things like that. So, you can do that in the physical realm relatively easy. Perceptual realm, what you can do is you can give designers glasses that blur their vision or that darken the world. One of the interesting things about older adults is that our eyes become less capable of taking in light over our lifetimes. There are a number of reasons for that. One of them is that your cornea and your lens become yellowed over time with exposure to ultraviolet light, and therefore let through less light to your retina. Now, the retina also loses light sensitive cells over the course of your lifetime and therefore becomes less sensitive to light. And so, the upshot is that the average 80-year-old needs light to be three times as bright in order to perceive the same brightness as a 20-year-old. I may not have those exact ages right because I haven't memorized them, but they're in the book. So, in the perceptual realm, you can give your designers prosthesis, or artificial impairments that will affect their hearing or their vision or their touch. For example, the example I gave earlier, right? You put someone and tell them, “Okay, you got this phone and the buttons… we think the buttons are too small, but you think they're fine. Okay, here. Get into this car and we're going to drive over a bumpy road and you try to text somebody.” You know? So, you can make people situationally impaired, and that can bring empathy. Put somebody on a camel and tell them to use their iPad. Jorge: On a camel? I love that. I'm going to try to find out where we can procure a camel for a usability study. These all seem like good methods to use for the accessibility part of the equation. I'm wondering if there are similar methods we can employ for the mental model part of this. Where these folks like you said, they might have grown up in a world where the technologies were very different, and now they're being asked to somehow operate in this world where a lot is taken for granted that just isn't available to these folks. Aligning Mental Models Jeff: Right. Well, think of it this way: When I was 15 years old, all the user interfaces I used were right there in front of me. They didn't require any kind of a concept of navigation. I did not have to navigate to the function that I wanted to do. Whereas now, starting with, personal computers, but continuing through the web, continuing through social networking and continuing through the use of cell phones, navigation through a user interface became an important concept. It's part of the design, right? There's no way a cell phone with its small screen can provide all the functionality right there on the screen that you need at any given time. But the old telephones, there was no need to navigate from one function to another. You just pick up the phone and start dialing the number. Interestingly, the concept of dialing a number… we still use that word, even though nobody has dialed a phone for 30 years. But anyway, so I guess what I should say is that our terminology often gets stuck even though the technology moves on from that, right? I keep hearing people on the news say, we have film of this politician committing bad stuff. We have it on tape. We have it on film. We captured footage. Those are all words that apply to actual physical film. Some of my students have no idea where does this term “footage” comes from and why do we apply it to movies. But anyway, that's just a little aside. So, the concept of navigation is a new thing for many older adults. It's something that happened after their maturation period, after they got stuck in their technology. And so, when I'm driving in my Tesla and I want to use the radio, I actually have to navigate from the map screen, which is showing me where I am right now in my neighborhood to the radio screen, right? And in the old days — when I say the old days, I mean, the days that baby boomers were used to, they grew up in — I didn't have to do that. There was no map on the screen. I had a map maybe on the passenger seat next to me, unfolded, that I got from a AAA. But the radio was right there on the control panel — the dashboard — all the time, and so was the ignition, and so was the air conditioner, and so were all the other functions. They were right there. I didn't have to navigate from one function to another. So that's a confusing concept for many older adults. And yes, eventually, those older adults will eventually die, and tomorrow's older adults won't be confused by that, but they will be confused by other things that will change. Jorge: I was really intrigued by these methods that you called out like the bus example earlier for the physical challenges involved… what I think of as the UI challenges. And I'm wondering if there are equivalent methods for us to use for this more conceptual challenge. Are there like the dark glasses that I can wear, but for the conceptual models that have become part of my world? Jeff: Yes and no. It's easier to impair someone's vision and hearing and physical movement than it is to impair their brain function. I mean, you can impair the brain function by giving them a bunch of whiskey to drink, but that's not the right kind of impairment, right? What you need to do is to be able to make it so that certain concepts don't make sense to them. So, that is difficult. But there are some design techniques that one could use. For example, suppose I want to make a map app and I want to make it easier to use for a wider range of people, including people who don't have the mental model that involves a lot of navigation. Well then, I just build what's called a one-screen app — and those are actually becoming fairly popular, right? So, there are lots of companies that are going with this idea of everything should be on a screen, and I shouldn't have to keep moving around in the app from one place to another. Google maps is a good example of a one-screen app, right? And there are some others that are coming along. I'm having trouble remembering them right now. But the concept of one screen apps is actually becoming more of a thing and it actually is quite useful for mobile apps on phones. Now, the problem with a mobile app on a phone is that your screen is really small. So, a one-screen app is really challenging design-wise. But what you're trying for is to eliminate the notion that people have to find their way to the function that they want, right? When I buy an airline ticket on an airline's website, there's a whole series of pages I have to go through to get that ticket. And some older adults find that quite challenging, because just when they think they're close to getting their ticket, they see a link that says, “bargain prices here” and they click on it and suddenly they're nowhere near their goal. And they go, “Oh! This is crazy. I thought I was going to get a bargain price on that flight I was just about to buy!” There's an interesting design pattern that was invented actually maybe 15 years ago, by some colleagues of mine, I'm trying to remember their names. But the design pattern is called Process Funnel. And what Process Funnel is, is the idea is that once your app knows — once your website knows — what a user is trying to achieve, guide them strictly toward that goal, do not distract them. Don't put up ads. Don't put upside links. Don't put up little bargain links that take them away from that path. Once you know what they want, guide them to their goal. Because you make money when they get to their goal, and they are satisfied when they get to their goal. And if you distract them from their goal, you've lost them. You don't make money. So, process funnel is a very useful design pattern. Try to figure out… Yeah, offer a lot of different choices for them at the start, but once you know what they want, take them there. Make sure they don't get off-path. Benefits for the Young and Old Jorge: I love what you're saying here, and I have so much that I would like to follow up with you about this topic. Unfortunately, we're running out of time. But I just want to say that the things that you're describing — the methods, the processes, and just the mindset of empathizing with folks who have different abilities than your own — sounds like something that might be valuable not just for making your products sell better, for example, among older adults, but also would bring benefits to everyone. If you do what you're describing there of optimizing the path to completion of a goal, other people — younger people — are going to also derive benefit from that, no? Jeff: Yes. One of the things I have to say since I teach introductory computer science at a university, is that I don't think it's the case that all younger adults are tech-savvy. I have lots of students in my classes who don't know the difference between WiFi and cell service. “My cell phone's not working. Why not? I have WiFi!” “Well, people can't call you on your WiFi. Don't you know the difference between WiFi and cell service?” Okay? So, there are lots of young people who are not technologically savvy. But what we're trying to do as designers is to build essentially the equivalent of curb cuts. You know, curb cuts were put in for a specific purpose: to comply with laws that people with wheelchairs needed to be able to get around in cities. But actually, more than 90% of the users of curb cuts are not people in wheelchairs. The people who actually benefit from curb cuts are… the overwhelming majority of them are people with skateboards, and pushing shopping carts, and pulling roller bags, and pushing strollers, right? So, the curb cuts actually helped everyone, even though they were mandated for people in wheelchairs. And that's what we need to do in technology, is design not strictly for older adults — because that makes no sense — we need to design so that older adults and everyone else can use the technology. Closing Jorge: That strikes me as a great summary of the topic and a fantastic place to wrap up the conversation. Where can folks follow up with you, Jeff? Jeff: Well, I have a consulting firm called UIWizards.com. So, they can look me up there. I have these books, Designing With The Mind in Mind, GUI Bloopers, Conceptual Models, and Designing for An Aging Population. They can check out those books and, you know, get in touch with me that way. I teach at the University of San Francisco. You can get in touch with me that way. Jorge: Well, fantastic. It has been such a pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you for making the time. Jeff: Thank you for having me.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Mike: So Jeff, we were talking previously about your film production and your travel experiences, and have you ever had any bad experiences or any really bad experiences that stand out in your television kind of documentary production?Jeff: Yes, there's been several --- there's been many small, uncomfortable or scary moments, but I think the pinnacle of that experience came on my birthday maybe three years ago in the Philippines Sea.Mike: Wow!Jeff: And we were shooting a television documentary in the Southern Philippines and its a developing country, so the standards for safety are a little bit lower than a developed country like America or Japan, so we were on a boat. We had charted a boat to go across the Philippines Sea from one island to another, and just after dusk at night.Mike: You were doing like a film shoot?Jeff: Yeah, we were filming down there for two weeks in the Southern Philippines, and we charted this boat so we had all out gear. We had our camera crew. We had everything on the boat going from one island to another, and just after dusk. after it had got dark, the boat sank.Mike: Wow! You lost everything?Jeff: We lost everything, but at that moment nothing really mattered. No physical possession, or none of the film that we had shot over the last week. Nothing. It was just --- you were just worried about living, so everything else went out the window, so I was just thinking about I have to stay alive. I have to live through this.Mike: And I"m assuming, you did stay alive.Jeff: I'm still alive.Mike: That's a bonus.Jeff: One of my nine lives is gone, or maybe two of them or three of them, but yeah.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Mike: So Jeff, we were talking previously about your film production and your travel experiences, and have you ever had any bad experiences or any really bad experiences that stand out in your television kind of documentary production?Jeff: Yes, there's been several --- there's been many small, uncomfortable or scary moments, but I think the pinnacle of that experience came on my birthday maybe three years ago in the Philippines Sea.Mike: Wow!Jeff: And we were shooting a television documentary in the Southern Philippines and its a developing country, so the standards for safety are a little bit lower than a developed country like America or Japan, so we were on a boat. We had charted a boat to go across the Philippines Sea from one island to another, and just after dusk at night.Mike: You were doing like a film shoot?Jeff: Yeah, we were filming down there for two weeks in the Southern Philippines, and we charted this boat so we had all out gear. We had our camera crew. We had everything on the boat going from one island to another, and just after dusk. after it had got dark, the boat sank.Mike: Wow! You lost everything?Jeff: We lost everything, but at that moment nothing really mattered. No physical possession, or none of the film that we had shot over the last week. Nothing. It was just --- you were just worried about living, so everything else went out the window, so I was just thinking about I have to stay alive. I have to live through this.Mike: And I"m assuming, you did stay alive.Jeff: I'm still alive.Mike: That's a bonus.Jeff: One of my nine lives is gone, or maybe two of them or three of them, but yeah.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Mike: In all of the traveling that you've done around the world, what is the best travel experience you have had? What's the most memorable travel experience you had in your adventures around the world?Jeff: Well, that's a tough question, Mike. That's like asking what's your favorite food because you love everything. Everything's delicious and to pick one is very difficult but I think it's very simple. I think it's --- I like to think of --- India is a crazy place. It's a circus of a country, in a good way. It's like a circus where have --- you never know what you're gonna see, and it's very entertaining, but the --- and it's one of the poorestcountries in the world, India, it's just full --- there are a billion people there, and six hundred million of them are very poor, but they're so happy and so friendly, I remember that one of my first --- my first trip to India, and one of my first days in India, there was a man, a chai wall. And a wala means like a little businessman, and chai is tea, in India so this chai wall, he had his own little tea stand on the side of a busy road in Dehli, and it was a small stand, and it was noisy, and it was hot, and it was chaotic[混乱的；毫无秩序的], and crazy and he sold his tea for two cents a cup, and when I sat down I started talking to this man and told him and it was like my first or second day in India, and you know, I had just come to the country for the first time, and he welcomed me to India and he said, you know, it's so good that you came to our country, and have some free tea, and he gave me my first cup of chai ever, for free, and this man, he had nothing. he lived on the street, and he slept beside his chai wala at night, and he had old ragged clothes on, and I just remembered that I'm very wealthy and he's very poor compared to him, but yet the hospitality that he showed by giving me that free cup of tea when he really needed the money and the business. It stood out in my mind, even to this day, that the generosity even though he needs the money. He was still so generous and so nice and giving. It stands out in my mind that, you know, and I always want to try to be kind and nice like that.Mike: Can I ask you a question?Jeff: Sure.Mike: Was there milk in the tea?Jeff: Yes, there was. In India, they call it dude, and it's buffalo milk, buffalo milk in the tea. It was great. Great tea. India chai is the best.Mike: You just gave me a whole new meaning of the word dude. That's brilliant.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Mike: In all of the traveling that you've done around the world, what is the best travel experience you have had? What's the most memorable travel experience you had in your adventures around the world?Jeff: Well, that's a tough question, Mike. That's like asking what's your favorite food because you love everything. Everything's delicious and to pick one is very difficult but I think it's very simple. I think it's --- I like to think of --- India is a crazy place. It's a circus of a country, in a good way. It's like a circus where have --- you never know what you're gonna see, and it's very entertaining, but the --- and it's one of the poorestcountries in the world, India, it's just full --- there are a billion people there, and six hundred million of them are very poor, but they're so happy and so friendly, I remember that one of my first --- my first trip to India, and one of my first days in India, there was a man, a chai wall. And a wala means like a little businessman, and chai is tea, in India so this chai wall, he had his own little tea stand on the side of a busy road in Dehli, and it was a small stand, and it was noisy, and it was hot, and it was chaotic[混乱的；毫无秩序的], and crazy and he sold his tea for two cents a cup, and when I sat down I started talking to this man and told him and it was like my first or second day in India, and you know, I had just come to the country for the first time, and he welcomed me to India and he said, you know, it's so good that you came to our country, and have some free tea, and he gave me my first cup of chai ever, for free, and this man, he had nothing. he lived on the street, and he slept beside his chai wala at night, and he had old ragged clothes on, and I just remembered that I'm very wealthy and he's very poor compared to him, but yet the hospitality that he showed by giving me that free cup of tea when he really needed the money and the business. It stood out in my mind, even to this day, that the generosity even though he needs the money. He was still so generous and so nice and giving. It stands out in my mind that, you know, and I always want to try to be kind and nice like that.Mike: Can I ask you a question?Jeff: Sure.Mike: Was there milk in the tea?Jeff: Yes, there was. In India, they call it dude, and it's buffalo milk, buffalo milk in the tea. It was great. Great tea. India chai is the best.Mike: You just gave me a whole new meaning of the word dude. That's brilliant.

How important is content marketing strategy to your e-commerce business? Crafting valuable content helps build brand trust with both existing and potential customers, allowing you to successfully grow your brand. Today we're talking all about content and smart ways to ramp up your strategy. Jeff Coyle is co-Founder and Chief Product Officer of MarketMuse. Coming from twenty years in the SEO and content strategy arena, Jeff's products use AI to accelerate content planning, creation, and optimization. With their spokes-of-a-wheel keyword approach, MarketMuse's content marketing strategy connects ideas, allowing clients to demonstrate product expertise. Episode Highlights: How content relates to growth and where to start assessing the need for your business. Strategies that help tell the story that you are trying to tell. How to gauge the success rate. Where the news dynamic fits into your content campaign. The breadth and depth of your content. Figuring out where the gaps are. When to hire an expert. How the Marketmuse suite of services help the writer. Using smart content to illustrate expertise. Why search volume is not the only strategy for content valuation. Some quick win strategies – aka one-page plans. Packages MM offers for different sized audiences. Tools and hacks Jeff recommends. Transcription: Mark: So there was a time early on in Quiet Light Brokerage when I was doing all of the Content Marketing for the firm and I was writing on average eight blog posts or articles per week averaging about 18,200 words in length. And I underestimated when I started on this kind of venture of can I do these eight to 10 per month; I underestimated how much work it was going to be and it was a lot of work because it's not just writing down your thoughts it's writing for the web and writing for SEO and understanding what do you write about next. It's amazing how quick the writer's block comes in. I know that you had a conversation with Jeff Coyle a mutual friend of ours from Rhodium and one of the founders of MarketMuse which is an awesome company; a great tool from an SEO and content marketing standpoint. You guys talked about everything content which is relevant to buyers, anyone looking to acquire a web-based business and grow it. I know it's been a huge part of our marketing plan. What are some of the things that you and Jeff talked about in this conversation? Chuck: It's quite great. I had a great conversation with Jeff and we're talking about if you've got a dollar spend where to spend it. Most people they're doing basic keyword research, they're looking for what's the keyword that's getting the most searches versus the keyword difficulty. And he takes it like way beyond that and they're looking at not just the specific keywords but what keywords are actually tied to other keywords that show that you're an expert in the topic. If I'm talking about like a specific thing but I fail to mention other words Google then thinks that I'm not an expert because anybody who's an expert would be using these other words or when you're just looking at keyword tools to look at the ones they're getting the most traffic you often miss the additional keywords that are in there. Mark: Right. And I know full disclosure I use MarketMuse with Quiet Light Brokerage and actually with my other company as well. I use their service and the general sales pitch is pretty simple. It's this idea of setting up pillar pages and having this kind of spokes on a wheel branch now so the example that they use I think in some of the marketing materials is if you're going to have a website on craft beer you should have a blog post on craft beer but you should also have an entire section on hops and an entire section on barley and malts and then even from there if you want to be all about hops and afford it to do a page on hops you should also have some satellite pages on imperial hops or these other types of varieties of hops and being able to have this kind of wheel with different spokes coming out. And you know what a bunch of SEO tools use this. Like I've been using Sight Bulb recently; a really cool software that diagrams out your site and the sort of hub sort of format. What MarketMuse does is they take a blog post and had topics so you say I want to focus on craft beer and they say okay if you want to really be known as an expert, make sure that you're talking about hops at least 10 or 15 times in this blog post. And make sure that you're also talking about different types of barley. And then you can use that and say well okay I'll talk about this in this blog post but what do I write on other blog post? It's made for me and I don't do a lot of the writing anymore but it makes the content creation process super easy; like the ideation part, I mean that's the hard part about all of this. How do you come up with new ideas on what you should write about? But I don't want people to think this is just a sales pitch for MarketMuse. It's a great piece of software, obviously, I believe in it from that standpoint. But I think from a buyer standpoint also from a seller standpoint having a solid content strategy is really really key. If you were to spend money; Chuck you've had a bunch of businesses in the past and I know you've used content, if you're going to spend your money somewhere for long term marketing dollar I'm kind of leading you to the answer here, where would you spend it? Would it be in the content marketing world or would it be PPC or what are the advantages in your opinion of this content marketing versus other types of marketing? Chuck: Yeah I mean it really depends I think on the type of business you have. Obviously, if you have a content-related business then you want to hop out as much quality content as you can. If you've got an e-commerce business there's different funnels and then buckets may be that you need to put your money in but you definitely need to be investing in content. Even on Amazon when you're thinking about like selling something on Amazon you go to some people's pages and the content is just horrible and it's so important. One of the things we didn't talk about but like when you're looking at Amazon you'll look at the questions people are asking and then answer those questions. So content is definitely important. We talked just a lot about what you should be writing about next. When you're looking at competitors sometimes you can actually see the direction they're going and then beat them and write a bunch of content. Actually, get in front of them because you look at their keyword list and you know the direction they're headed and you can actually get in front of them. Mark: Yeah for my money I think the two areas that are the most important for a marketing strategy at least long term return will be content marketing and CRO, conversion rate optimization. Those two things alone have such staying power where you invest now and you're going to benefit for years to come as opposed to PPC which is great because you can throttle PPCC; that's the reason people love it. You can throttle up and down. You can really find some gems and it's very immediate. But long term success I think is predicated on this content strategy frank that's something we've even bought a little bit at Quiet Light. I just got to give you a quick shot out Chuck because you are wearing a Quiet Light shirt. So for all those people that are watching on YouTube and I know it's not a ton of you that are watching on YouTube but those that are you can see that Chuck actually has a really cool shirt. I don't even have that shirt. Did you give me one? Chuck: I think I kind of bought Joe one but I didn't get you one so maybe I'll have to get you one as well. Mark: Okay, I think Brad gave me one and it was like enormous. I was swimming on the thing. Chuck: I think that's the one I have with Joe when I bought his it was too big for him so I have to get your size. Mark: Make sure you size it down and hey if we get a few extras of these maybe we can set up a contest for people that actually want a Quiet Light; I don't care what you do with it but it's kind of fun to give that away as a prize. Let's get into the episode. Content marketing is where I cut my teeth early in the Internet world. I love this topic. I think Jeff is one of the smartest people in the industry when it comes to content marketing [inaudible 00:07:02.0] good market views and this is definitely one to learn from. Chuck: Yeah absolutely and two things before we dive right into it; one they're giving a special discount. Again we're not trying to promote it. It's just a good product if you want it great but in the show notes, there's going to be a discount code to get a nice percentage off. And stay tuned to till the end of the video because I also asked Jeff for some additional tools that he likes to use. I always think it's fun to ask entrepreneurs what are some various tools that are unrelated to our discussion from what you're using so. Chuck: All right hi everybody Chuck Mullins here from Quiet Light Brokerage and today on the call we have Jeff Coyle the co-founder of MarketMuse and chief is it, product officer? Jeff: Yeah, Chief Product Officer, I manage the product data science and engineering teams as well as the marketing team at Marketing News. Chuck: Awesome. So I've known Jeff for a couple of years, we run in the same circles. I've been on the Internet world for quite a while. Jeff do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself? Jeff: Sure. I am as you mentioned the co-founder and chief product officer for MarketMuse. Prior to this, I've been in this space as Chuck mentioned for quite a long time; about 20 years as scary as that might sound in the search engine optimization content strategy game. I have generated like 50 million leads and not as an exaggeration for B2B technology primarily companies in the early part of my career. I worked as an early employee at a company called Knowledge Storm which sold to Tech Target which is also a great B2B publisher and an intent data and ABM platform for enterprise and mid-market B2B companies. I worked for them through their in-house team and in-house capabilities while I was there really focused on driving engaged users through content and content strategy. When I left Tech Target having already spoken with my co-founder about ways that we could grow MarketMuse I came on as a bit of a late co-founder and we've since grown the company to almost 50 people; really, really an amazing story about growth, building a new category about content strategy, what should you write next, what should you update or optimize next that's going to have the biggest impact on your business and everything that goes along with that from how do I assess my own authority, how do I understand where my gaps are, how do I know where my strengths are. And that's been the mission of our business is really to tell the story of I could spend a dollar on content; creating, optimizing, blah, blah, blah, tomorrow what should it be? And that's what MarketMuse is for; to tell that story. Chuck: Alright so kind of you alluded to it but today we'll get you on a call to talk about SEO and maybe more so how content is applicable to SEO. So maybe starting at the base when somebody either acquires a new site or maybe is looking at a site trying to think of how do I grow this site like where's my opportunity, what kind of analysis do you think somebody should start off with? Jeff: Well I think that traditionally the way that people have assessed sites for their strengths sometimes is only by looking at their current and existing rankings or their historical rankings. So it's a bit of you know kind of a tail wagging the dog assessment of where you're at, where you have been, but that as a starting point does provide some value as to where you are. It just doesn't tell typically the entire story about what it means to be about something. So when I'm looking at assessing a site for the merits of its; the collection of its content or its inventory of content, when I'm looking at is to say yes certainly I want to see performance. I want to look at also things that I might get out of my analytics package engagement. I have to understand the goals of the company the key performance indicators of the business. Am I driving those things? Can I peddle out of them? But divorcing those concepts for this point in discussion about conversion rate optimization and such from a search engine optimization or authority perspective I want to see where I've written great content so how much content have I created on core topics that I care about. When I do cover those topics how in-depth do I get and how successful does that; what kind of success does that yield when I write about a concept I care about when I get deep when I write high-quality content on concepts that I care about. Those two things really tell the story of your existing momentum on a concept. And so that when I'm assessing a site that's one thing I want to want to figure out is where do I have momentum? What concepts can I write about and I expect to be successful. And that's Stage 1. Chuck: Before we move on from that one how do we gauge that success rate; what do we think is successful, what are the indicators that say hey I'm already doing well here or I'm not doing well here? Jeff: Absolutely and that's the hardest part. And to run an effective content marketing team and a content production team for any company you've got to start at what are the key performance indicators? If I'm an e-commerce site the key metrics that I have is my average order size, it's my conversion rate close to a closed cart, it's my cart abandons, it's my total revenue. If I'm an affiliate site it might be an RPM metric and I have to be agnostic of and when I have agnostic a reference of affiliate and then I want specific combinations of affiliates because sometimes you can actually fake your books accidentally if you've got great affiliates on one page and not great affiliates on another. So it's really about I think engagement with affiliate opportunities in addition to revenue. You get a look at both of those things. If you are a publisher it's going to be RPM but also it's engagement with those pages. Because again how your ad server validates is do you have paid ads? So if you have a bunch of house ads and those have a different rate you want to always account for that because you might have great content this shooting off impressions engaged users clicks and such. So I always like to look at my current value per visit and then by the way from a B2B tech or something PI attorney; all these places are where MarketMuse does business so I like to kind of list a full fledge. I'm looking at my conversion to lead. I'm also looking at as far down the funnel as I can track and attribute. Every deal no matter what every situation you're looking at you always want to get it back to current value per visit and aspirational value per visit from a channel. In this case, let's say organic. So if I'm in a scenario I want to always be able to back that up. That's the only way I can truly define quantified value. And for MarketMuse obviously, that's the only way we can truly walk in the door and be confident in that ROI analysis. And that's why we've had to do this hundreds of times. When we talk to somebody it's to say how much do you really value each one of these visits? And if you can't answer that question it's okay, let's back into it, let's figure it out. How much is that truly about? Because then if you grow your traffic 20% you can say okay well that's worth this much to me. How much am I willing to invest in that? And that's how I define. So that's a long way of answering a short question that was actually really duped question. But the answer then is my quantified value metric. How much did I publish? How much did I update? How much do those act motions cost or those actions cost? And what was the efficiency rate on the content achieving some sort of baseline goal? I like to use recurring traffic from organic search as my goal. So I might get a boost from other channels and then it dies off. So I want recurring traffic at or above a particular baseline. So if I wrote 100 articles and 10 of them achieved my baseline of ongoing recurring traffic when I have 10 percent efficiency rate in that zone. If I updated 100 articles and 40 of them grew in traffic at or above a particular level. Then I've got a 40% efficiency rate on optimization. So when I talk about effectiveness of content I want to see how much should I publish, how much should I update and how often did that achieve my goals? I see ranges by the way just it scares the crap out of me sometimes, 1 to 2% of efficiency. Like I write 100 articles and only 2 get rankings. Quite often 40 and 45% at best practice that it's so wide. So you need to take stock today whomever you are and say how often did I write, how often did that yield recurring traffic; that's my efficiency rate. Am I in that 10 percent zone? I got some work to do. Am I above 20, 30, 40? I'm kicking butt. Now how do I take advantage of that? What do I do? No matter where you are there's always steps you can take to really maximize your earn. But it's a great question because so many people talk about ROI and they can't explain how they calculated. Chuck: Right. And it sounds like what you're saying is maybe like diving into your analytics but not looking at like how much traffic this page is doing but what is the segmented traffic; how much is coming from Google or Bing or whatever you're targeting. Maybe you're targeting link acquisition with an article then you got to figure out what's the value of a link that's coming in, how many did I get on this piece of content, and then maybe kind of summing up the value of all the different components. Like knowing what your KPIs are for the specific content. Jeff: Absolutely. And so the ways that I do that so it's manageable; there are ways where you can do that so it's manageable because [inaudible 00:16:38.2] I have thousands of pages or I published hundreds of pages how could I possibly do that? It's do it for the site level. Do it by site section; it's the way Google thinks about your site anyway. Do it by site section and then take your marquee pages and do a more thorough analysis of them. And marquee could mean your best pages that you feel are the best but they punch below their weight class, stuff that does really well, stuff that you invested a lot of money in. So build your plat; this is the stuff I'm going to do with deep dive but I'm also going to get my section level and sight levels metrics. An example might be that when Chuck writes an article he's on a 20% conversion rate to my effectiveness metric. But when Ron I don't know who Ron is but well just say Ron, when Ron writes an article he's 5%. So you're to get; you could do person level, you could do section level. You really want to get that slice and dice to know what's the thing that is causing success to happen or is it luck. A lot of sites a lot of B2B companies they rely on all of their authority for 5, 10 pages and they've got hundreds. Not only is it completely scary and unhealthy from a competitive space situation but if you're a Quiet Light listener it's an opportunity. I mean it's an opportunity to see a site that has a risk of ruin. It's an opportunity to see a site that has huge opportunity if they just publish the right content. So all of those things are what we're typically looking at. It's when I publish about Chevrolets it does real well when I publish about smart cars it doesn't. So when I get that site I'm shooting off about Ford and about gosh as my adjacent so I'm talking about; so it's really getting into when I get in how can I write about tangential or semantically related concepts, really expand my inventory in ways I know we'll have more success, and if I do want to cover other things. I think a reasonable expectation about investment need because I can't just go right kitty cats and crush it. But I know that if I cover what hubcaps should be on the PT Cruiser I can. And so those are the types of conceptual analysis, editorial content strategies I have been doing with years. Now you have data to support it. And that's where I think that the next phase of great Search Engine Optimization outcomes comes from this type of content strategy analysis for sure. Chuck: And one of the things I was reading the other day was just and I think everybody already knows this but they were talking about news websites and why don't news websites rank for everything. Like a news website gets all the links because everybody's linking to articles but yet they don't have the ability to rank for all topics, right? Certain news agencies actually get a lot more traffic for specific topics because that is maybe their topical relevance of their business. Jeff: Yeah. Oh, I mean news is so unique. The news algorithm has so many components and so from a Google news perspective and Google top stories there's components of real-time boosting. There's the concept of the fact that news articles appear in organic search. And they're coming from different channels of information. So they cross the chasm from just being news to being appropriate in search results. So then there's the dynamic of some of those items stay forever. Some of them are temporal and they're going to bounce out when that thing becomes less of a temporal story. We actually have a solution for that. MarketMuse allows you to analyze both serps and overlay analysis and it's called newsroom but that's neither here nor there. But the point of the message is what if you write news articles about this topic you care about but there's four to five aggressive publishers also publishing in that that have authority for news and you're just picking up the scraps. You can see that with solutions that are out there now. You're going to just see what those things are and then tracking that back to assessing performance. If I'm looking at my content items and I write 80 articles about some topic I get no news referrals and I get trickles in of organic and I'm writing it for the purposes of news, is that great? Let's say they get other KPIs, let's say they do gather links and they become powerful. But I'm not winning news, I'm not getting the organic search value that I think I should, how do I use that? How do I use the power that those pages are acquiring to my benefit? And most of the time when I see problematic content strategy; document the content strategy at a company they're not looking at their existing power pages. What content are they publishing that is gaining some value and how do we use that? Because I've got something that's a link magnet that every SEO in the world will go we need to do something with that but they don't necessarily know what that is. And a lot of times you see these link magnets and they're out there. They got a little bit of traffic upfront. They're not valuable enough to get recurrent traffic or it's not; it was a temporal staged story so they don't know what to do. And so weaving that article; weaving that item into some real good content strategy, that's the win. That's building my thought leadership, building my clusters of content, and hey this powerful battery. Plug the battery in here, plug the battery in here, and weave it in with internal link, weave it in with appropriate content, upgrade opportunities for conversions, there's so many things you can do to repurpose but when you get a winner use the winner. And we see that older people are scared to touch them because they're like it might break up. So these are the main dynamics that we run into with kind of the Assessment Authority and news as a special case. But it's so misunderstood what to do when you get a news winner. Because if you can predict that every time you publish a news story on Linux you're in the top three of Google top stories. Like, open that wallet every darn day. And I have clients that are in that scenario and we're like you must write about this every day and they cringe at first and I'm like here's the value that this produces; it's not just traffic. It's all the good stuff that comes as a result of that. It's also a long answer to a short question but I think that's usually a theme with me. Chuck: Alright, so number two you're about to say before I ask you a question? Jeff: Oh gosh I don't even remember what it was now. No, I'm just kidding. So it's kind of breadth and depth and then is the things that you see as being really high quality that you've written. These pillar pieces, the centers of the universe, the things that have acquired the KPI. How are those KPIs; they've acquired some metric that gives you that sense. So we've talked about how your existing momentum, well what are these cornerstone pieces, what are the center of the cluster pieces that exist and how are you using them today? Are you weaving them in? Are you using them to write then support pieces, etcetera? And how do you combine that with analysis of your target readership or user or buyer intent? So what's their purchase cycle; do you have coverage in the information phase, do you have coverage in the middle of funnel, do you have coverage late in the funnel, do you have post-purchase troubleshooting and adherence in ownership? So when you have a beacon of power really that's the time your mirror needs to be the most clear. I always say this. Like, stop tilting the mirror your way because you think you have success. The garbage in the game right now as I call it is people looking at search results and saying I need to write articles just like that search result item regardless of whether you want to argue differentiation it doesn't work. It only works if you have existing power to start to do things like that. What you have to do is just say with my site that I'm assessing, do I have coverage at all phases of the cycle that people would care about who are in this motion; I mean research, intent, decision, conversion, adherence, troubleshooting, whatever the metrics of the buy spying journey would be. And that comes to the why I say this way because the pragmatic approach is to say does this site truly represent my business as an authority and as an expert? What about this collection of pages or this content inventory tells a story that I actually am an expert? And so when you're looking at coverage, you're looking at momentum and what's been validated that I am an authority. But then it's also going to be like aspirationally if I truly were an expert what would I have covered? I can do that by doing competitive analysis or I can do that by doing semantic analysis and manual research. And so when you cross-reference; the punch line here is cross-reference the aspirational model against what you have and that's your gap analysis. So think about the outcomes there. I have gaps in this part of the bio journey. I have gaps, I have blind spots I don't ever cover these topics. I have blind spots here blah, blah, blah. I also have ranking gaps where I have striking distance keywords like I'm on page two that's that the SEO trick, right? Go tell them to update the pages where you're on page two and they'll go up a little and hey you did your job. So but if you weave that into this type of semantic analysis; this gap analysis, your content strategy becomes 2, 3, 10x more impactful overnight. And so compare that to keyword gap analysis, think about the outcomes. You get a word out of it. You get a word where you're ranking 12th and you think you should rank 5th. Well, now you know why. And then you know what you need to do. And that's the secret here. It's get yourself out of just keywords; get yourself into the content that's needed to plug the holes. Chuck: So we don't know what we don't know so how do we figure out what the gaps are? Are there tools you can recommend? How do we figure this out? Jeff: Yeah. Well I think that they're certainly on it and they're obviously not just the ones I present with MarketMuse but there are ways if you want to see. You want to be able to look at using your analytics, using any off the shelf Search Engine Optimization suite whether you are a higher-end person in a more enterprise or kind of using an [inaudible 00:27:29.2]. Looking at those pages; again all of your pages trying to organize them or you're looking at you don't want to buy those things, you've got analytics and you look at something that can crawl and analyze the structure of your site like a screening frog or a [inaudible 00:27:45.5] or a solution like that. Get a true understanding about your site and what it's about. What are the things where every time you publish it it's a winner or more of the time versus what's the stuff where you've been tilting at; aspirational goals. So looking at that or even looking at just traffic and revenue versions by section or by page type or by publish state because last year this was under this person's management this year this is under this person's management. Just a combination of this basic information from analytics and page-level data from a [inaudible 00:28:23.7] can get you at least started. And just to start thinking critically about your content inventory. A solution like the MarketMuse obviously is going to give you the sniper rifle to say go write this page, go fill this gap. But even if you if you're just looking to get kind of a basic understanding it can be easily put together to say gosh Chuck I don't know if we should publish any more articles about backgammon we're a chess site, it just hasn't extended. But when I write about you know particular defenses, we crush. Why don't we just lean into that? So you can make those types of decisions but then how do you get where we want to be a backgammon site. What are the ways that we can bridge the gap between chess and backgammon? How can we become more of an authority on strategic board games in general? So those are the types of questions that are out of this type of analysis, if you're real with yourself you stop publishing stuff that's not going to succeed. Try to figure out why it's not succeeding. That's where a person like a business like ours operates. But there's many out of an agency that knows the answer to these questions that can do that introspection that can do that analysis. But if you're analyzing your site I think it's truly to step back and say am I putting myself out there as an expert? Am I really showing it or was I chasing keywords? And it's always that oh man I haven't even thought about; I've just been looking up keywords, building lists, writing articles, keywords, lists, articles, keywords, lists, articles especially in the affiliate side not knocking always [inaudible 00:29:58.8] so much. It clearly comes out of a keyword list. And then I wrote the article some of them get linked together. Some of them don't. It's not leaving the web of somebody who actually knows their stuff. A great example of this; I've got uprise for every product in the world prices or reviews combination; bottom of funnel. That encompasses my contact strategy against this topic. It could have helped with that and then people wonder why they get hit when there's a quality change in the algorithm. It's because they're looking for that thing. They're looking for that stuff. You haven't told the story about buying that thing. Why are you the expert on pricing it? It doesn't make sense. And so that's the thing that; think about; get out of these search engine optimization shoes get into an editorial shoe. Hire an expert to say hey if you were writing an inventory of content about sound bafflers what would you cover; what are the things you need to know? And then cross-reference that against your stuff. Obviously, there's ways of doing both of those things taking technology like what we do. Chuck: So let's talk about that I know we don't want to like hardcore pitch your product but you have a great product that I think is a lot of value to a lot of people. So let's talk about like how your product can help and maybe even hit it as like these are the things that my product can do and some of the stuff people can do without the product so they could do it on their own but you're offering a service that makes it a lot easier. So let's talk about that. Jeff: So if I'm going to assess the value of a site; for example, if I want to see where there's areas of opportunity to create content or update content and be more successful. If I can get that hit list immediately and go execute on those plans; really move the needle quickly, that's a direct value of what one of the components of MarketMuse Suite. So MarketMuse Suite is a collection of; a combination of an automated content inventory and content auditing solution. We'll also take it to the next level and say after you build; after you say I want to create this page or update this page we'll build a comprehensive content brief for your writer. So it acts as a blueprint or an outline or a brief if you're familiar with what a brief looks like. And it tells a story so that the writer can be creative. So that the writer can research imagery; so the writer can research their sources and doesn't have to worry about is this thing going to have success after I hit publish. So many writers the anxiety they have; this is a huge pain point in the writing space is am I doing my keyword research correctly. Ask them. I mean that's the part I don't know. That's the part I really don't care about. I'm speaking from their standpoint. So take that mystery out of it. Take the SEO mystery out of it. Here's the outline we need you to follow. Be super creative. So we answer that question with that side of MarketMuse. We also have some point applications for doing competitive analysis so I can look at any search engine result page and understand who's got great content; high quality, who's got weak content, what are the gaps. And if I were going to put out true best in Class content on this specific intent, this specific topic what would it look like getting into the gritty details. Chuck: So what are some of those details? Jeff: Yeah. So what are the concepts that need to be included, what are the variants to consider, what are the questions to ask, what are the questions to answer, what are the internal linking; things you should do to internally link to other pages to tell the story that this isn't an orphan page on left field that actually weaves into your existing inventory and then grading your existing coverage and understanding how to interweave and to weave those things together. I have this great page; the one that you talked about, the news one, I want to make sure that it's linked. So all of those things we have point solutions so you can do a one-page analysis and get recommendations to improve it. You can get that one-page analysis and recommendations to make it equal to or better than your competitors every time and go head to head or against the whole field; questions and answers analysis, internal and external linking recommendations, and then we have for premium; one of our premium offerings is the newsroom solution specifically for Google News optimization. So basically the story is what should I write next, can you give me details as to how I would execute that so that you're getting me as close as you can to publishing? And then for all of my adjunct workflows; this specific analysis, this one-page analysis, we have applications to solve those specific goals to say okay why is Quiet Light Brokerage beating me for this topic? Is it because of quality; MarketMuse will tell you. Is it because of links and they have a worst page? Darn, they're more authoritative than me; what do I need to do? I need to go write a package of content. Tell me more of the story that I'm the expert because I don't have that off-page authority. So no matter where you sit it's giving you the advice as to what those next steps should be. And that's kind of the spirit of what we do. Chuck: So one of the examples I've heard you say before is like you're writing about a specific topic blue fuzzy widgets, everybody who writes about blue fuzzy widgets also includes pink monkeys and if you're not writing about pink monkeys then you clearly don't know about blue fuzzy widgets. You're not an expert. So maybe can you talk about that a little bit? Jeff: Sure. So our core technology is built on it. It's a topic modeling technology and it tells the story of what it means to be an expert on a concept. So it tells me by analyzing in some cases hundreds of thousands or millions of content items that people who know a lot about blue fuzzy widgets also know a lot about pink monkeys and so if you write about blue fuzzy widgets and you don't include pink monkeys you're not telling the story that you're an expert. So often in the market people have just looked at like the top 10 results to do this assessment. For so many reasons that I could get into there's a great article online called TFIDF is not the answer to your content and SEO problems and it goes into detail of each one of these logic challenges that exist. It's great for information retrieval. It's been around for 30 something years. Obviously, it's still being used. The challenge though is don't base your business content strategy and thousands of dollars of investment on that. And so what we were able to do is to say that but we're also then because we're analyzing so much data we're able to say that well guess what the top competitors aren't talking about orange donkeys and it's very relevant. That's a way for you to differentiate yourself. So you're covering the blue fuzzy widgets, your covering the pink monkeys but then you're going to differentiate yourself by also illustrating that you know all about those orange donkeys and that's what makes you special. And how does that drive back to true expertise? In this, we see constantly being successful with the best content strategies. They're writing about the table stakes content but they're also illustrating that they really know this stuff. And I always use more detailed examples but a cool one I always use for content marketing is a lot of people that write about content strategy don't talk about buyer personas. They don't talk about target audience. They don't talk about the roles on a content strategy team. Do you know why? Because they're chasing keywords. And if you can look at a search engine results page and go ooh, they're chasing keywords, there's my opportunity. Even if they're 9,000-word articles by HubSpot if you can find gaps in their game you can really take advantage of that and you can punch above your weight. And if you can pop a page that doesn't have as much traditional off-page authority link profile to build that beautiful cluster you can start ranking with undersized off-page pages and sections. And that's niche hunting. That's what the niche hunters talk about. That's what the UN fencers of the world; that's what they're really focusing on. How can I punch above my weight with undervalued off page sites? That's the way you get there; great content illustrates that you're an expert every time. Chuck: So we're thinking; traditional people when they're thinking about articles they're doing keyword research they're finding those low difficulty versus high search volume relative and then they're just going after that but what they're missing is just because people aren't searching for a specific word doesn't mean that it's not important. Jeff: You shouldn't have it in there. Chuck: Right. Jeff: Oh yeah. Chuck: Or specific words within content that you need to have to show you're in authority even though people; the average Joe may not be searching for that. Jeff: Exactly right. And that is the funniest thing about to watch the evolution in this market. When we first launched four years ago everyone when they would see a list of topics; this is the most interesting thing I'll say today, four years ago they used to look at that list and go why isn't it sorted by search point? And I said because that's irrelevant to what we're trying to do here. We're trying to tell you what it means to write that golden article to be an expert. Why does it matter what search volume is because you're so ingrained to use volume and PPC competition which that's another story for another day; crazy. Why don't do it? By the way, I'm not correlative to organic competition. I can get into that in a second but they're so ingrained; heavily so ingrained to use search volume as their North Star. They want everything to have search volume next to it so they can sort by it. So if we sort by that and then you discredit the stuff on the bottom, that's bananas. You're thinking about this from a content strategy perspective or from an expertise perspective. And that's what we see time and time again. Fun fact and I think you've heard me speak about this; it's totally exploitable. If you see competitors who clearly take topic lists and sorted by search volume you can; we usually call it chopping down a tree, you can chop down the tree. Every time it works because they have this strategy gap. You can predict what they're going to do. You can also chop down the tree in areas where they have blind spots. They will never fill them because they're using search point as a North Star. And so another way to say it is stop using that four square; that volume competition, you've all seen it. Alright, let's try to find those low competition high volume words. Sure those are great. Lean into those but that's not the whole picture of how you should write your content. Because the last thing I'll say about this is if you have no content at one stage of the purchase cycle and you think that you're not at risk with having content at another stage you've got another thing coming. It's going to catch up to you. Someone is going to fill that. Somebody is going to fill those intent gaps and crush you. It's just common. And we see it with publishers that have been resting on the laurels of their powerful content. They're just getting their tail handed to them by real content strategies every day. Chuck: So what are some quick wins you think people can have? Like okay, I have a let's say a site about; I don't know, let's just say a general content site, you pick the topic. What are some real quick wins I can get? Jeff: I like to call them one-page plans. So I'm going to find a page of interest. So something that's special about my site and maybe it's a small collection of pages. This is my page that's for some reason it's special. It's really long form, it's beautiful, it converts very well. Chuck: Are we defining special meaning like it's already getting traffic or I just think it's pretty? Jeff: I like it and it gets me some KPI that I think is legitimate and is giving me value. So it could be traffic already. It could be rankings that I am already getting; it ranks for lots of words. So that's a signal of comprehensiveness. A quick win could be to look at what that page is ranking for and pick out the words; this is using SEM Rush; using that to pick out the words in that list that the page doesn't actually satisfy the user intent for rewrite those pages; quickest win ever. So that one-page plan I rank this; I'll use a great example. Content Marketing Institute; I love that site, they have a wonderful page on LinkedIn profiles. It dominates LinkedIn profile marketing. They also rank for marketing profiles, not very good. And the site; the page just covers LinkedIn profiles. It doesn't cover generally marketing profiles. So they could beam their other zoom higher and now cover marketing profiles in general and write about other marketing profile presences as a cluster. All boats are going to rise. So you do that exercise, a quick win every time. You can find it. We call them content mismatches or unaddressed intent plants; always a win. You can always find one on your site because you've probably got pages that rank for hundreds of things. No one page can answer a hundred things beautifully. So when you go write that page people are like won't that cannibalize? No. I mean [inaudible 00:43:23.2]. Do I have to explain myself no? Chuck: So the key there is again you've got that one page; it's linking for a lot of words, you've got tons of words, you'll pick out the few that it's not ranking well for and then you'll link through that keyword to a new article that is specifically about that content? Jeff: Or expand it if it's a fit. If it's not a fit writing new but the key is it's not just that it's not ranking. I mean if it's not ranking for that's important but it could be ranking reasonably but not satisfying like user searches for that on Google and then they land on that page and like this sucks this isn't what I wanted. So if that intent mismatched so can you correct that and improve the page or do you need to do that in a new creation motion? So that is a tried and true technique. That's a recycle, recycle, recycle. Inside MarketMuse you just press a button and it tells you those plans which make life a lot easier obviously but you can do it. It's just that manual labor to use that one technique. And if you ask me for a quick one it's always a quick one. Look for that hundred word or more ranking page, find the word that this; read the page. You'd be surprised how many content strategists and CEOs don't actually read their sites; it's amazing. Read the page, know what value it has, and does this page get people to achieve that value. It can also be done on the back end. Andy Crestodina who works at Orbit Media; he is an expert in Google Analytics and content strategy. He wrote a book called Content Chemistry. Inside his analytics book; parts of the book, it shows you how to do this in Google Analytics by looking at exit rate and engagement gaps. So you can do it there or you can do it from keywords or any other ways but those are some quick ones. Look at your worst exit rates. So many people don't break those down by; they don't cross-reference those two things. So they've got a page, this thing is broken it's 90% in exit rate. Go back to the words that are driving the users to that page. What if all of them are out of alignment? You can just flash the content double engagement overnight. So there's so many wins that you can do with just a quick one-page plan analysis. I like to say pick one you like, get started, put few wins on the board, prove it out, and then decide is this something I want to get serious with and invest in technology that can support it. Chuck: I got you. Now when I started first looking at your product a couple of years ago and seeing kind of the wonderful amazing things you were doing, it was at a price point where I actually kind of like when high price points because it keeps; on really good things it keeps other people from being able to do it. But I guess you just launched a new price point for a self-service. Jeff: Yes. It's actually something we've been looking forward to doing. And we are a mid-market enterprise large publisher; people who have really invested in content that's traditionally been our target market. Chuck: Could you give an example of some big players that you work with? Jeff: Yeah sure. I'm trying to think of who's on this site. G2 Crowd is a customer and they're on there; we work with divisions of the Walmart Corporation, Home Depot, large e-commerce but also just great publishers. Business.com; love them so there's a lot of people who are publishing content. A lot of people I can't name and I wish I could. But if you type in MarketMuse case studies you can find a cool example from Tomorrow's Sleep on that one and how their site grew from 4,000 to 400,000 in a year with their agency that works with us. So that was always a big focus of ours. It was make sure that they can write content. Make sure that they can update content, that they've committed; they actually believe content can get them there because then life's going to be a lot easier for everybody. But we then also said let's look at the mirror. I'm always about looking in the mirror and look at the demand that we have. And so we really looked at who's coming in the front door saying we want to be MarketMuse customers. And right now having made that case internally or I just I'm not a profile of a customer that can spend tens or in some cases hundreds of thousands of dollars on software. And so what we did was we right-sized for a specific target market, we right-sized a self-serve offering. And there is also a trial experience that everyone who's listening can go to the site. Go to MarketMuse trial. Go to MarketMuse, see the trial and you'll get an experience with your data; we've actually set this up so you can use your site, optimize a page, create a content brief, update some existing content like I mentioned, get that content brief and then there's also a special workflow baked in there that'll amaze you that I'm not allowed to explain but you'll see it when you get there. But you can do a competitive analysis, you can update a page, you get a content brief; by the way, take that with you it's free and make that decision of whether you want to become a MarketMuse Pro customer which is our self-serve offering at 499 a month. Quiet Light Brokerage Podcast listeners have a promo which Chuck will include in his notes which gets you a discount there. Or if you're a larger team, if you have four writers, if you write 10, 15 articles a month it's going to make more sense for you to be in one of our other packages; a bronze, a silver, or a gold, or a higher offering. So it gives you an understanding about the value that we provide, the opportunity to buy, to see if that's a fit, or to immediately recognize oh gosh this is what I need for all of my content items. I need one of the larger offerings. So the experience we typically is that people find the right car on the lot. Or they begin using and saying oh wow I need more of this. I was successful with the first thing I did. I know this makes sense. Making your content higher quality, that's the fun part about being in Market Muse; it's you never look at it and you're like oh man I wish I hadn't made that page better. You're always on this ongoing quest to do a better job, write better content that resonates more with your audience. And that's what we do every day. Chuck: Awesome. So to wrap this up I always like to ask people could you give us a few random tools not really related to what we're talking about but just things you like to use in your daily work or just regular life. What are some of the hacks you may have? Jeff: Man, there's so many. I love this. So a couple that I use, when I had some personal time management issues I tried everything. I tried boards with; con bomb boards and everything. And one thing that helped me analyze where I was spending my time was called Tomecular and it looks like an eight-sided dice and you put stuff on it. And as you're working on stuff you move the dice around and it seems so; maybe it's because I like touching things like that but it really gave me an understanding about where I was spending my time and I fixed some stuff within MarketMuse like the business organizationally just from that information. So that's cool. I love Boomerang. I think it's a beautiful solution for making sure you don't forget stuff if you get a lot of e-mails. It's a really good productivity tool. Chuck: Before you move on from Boomerang I think Google now have something similar built-in where they have the… Jeff: They have don't let me forget this. Chuck: Yeah. It's like a little reminder you can set for different dates and it comes back in. Jeff: Yeah. Boomerang has some features that I'm so used to being able to set and forget things pause so I don't know if Google's ever going to pause Google so that's something that, but I like Boomerang. It's not that expensive. You do need to watch your SaaS subscriptions though. That's another story. Another one I love, love, love, love is Full Story. Full Story isn't; they keep going a little bit a little more expensive each time you look at them. Good for them. It's like having a DVR on every user that ever comes to your site. You can watch the experiences; obviously anonymized but you can watch their experiences, build pattern matching, look at segments, and really get an understanding about why people are doing things. I mean I think that that's really valuable. Chuck: It's kind of like what is it Crazy Egg? Jeff: It's similar to a Crazy Egg but it's more of like a heat map reporting. They've got this capability and a handful of other solutions that are out. I just think Full Story has this like really robust like I can go in and I can find users that went through this specific sequence and just watch all the sessions. I mean so many times. Just learn from that to really tell a story and it really is powerful when you are already doing a new multivariate testing to really catapult that into the next level. I mean if I told you what conversion rates we have you'd blow up. But yeah I mean you really have to think critically and fly the flag of your customers so that when you do get these solutions they don't just sit on the shelf. I mean my goal every day is to make sure that the next article that every one of my clients publish is more successful than it could have been without us. And I think that comes through in our online messaging. It's not just that we're this secret weapon of the elite agencies which I know for a while that's what we were. It's that if you use MarketMuse your stuff will do better more consistently and then I will be happy. And if it does not happen then I and our entire team will not be happy. And we hope that our messaging comes through and we couldn't do it without these other solutions that we work with Full Story, like Pendo; Pendo is a beautiful thing, and some other metrics, some other things we use to really dive deep into our customer experience. Chuck: Awesome well I appreciate you taking the time to talk with everybody today. Is there a way that people can reach out to you or the company? Jeff: Yeah, absolutely. So MarketMuse.com, Chuck's going to post a promo code that's for the MarketMuse Pro self-serve offering as a discount. You can email me directly Jeff@MarketMuse.com, Jeffrey_Coyle on Twitter. I'm pretty active. LinkedIn, please. I typically don't say no unless you've sent me a weirdo request that tells me in an unreal way that you like my profile and you'd love to connect. If it's clear that you bought or sold a website before in your life I'm probably going to connect with you and want to talk in any light. So yeah please reach out and go check it out. We have a lot of content. I have a lot of; this conversation is like this throughout the web that I think can really level up your game and give you the ability to assess deals quickly without just hunches. You got to go with your hunches but it's nice to have hunches and data. Chuck: Yeah for sure. And a quick pro tip from me, if you're trying to get somebody to accept your LinkedIn profile and they don't know who you are, write a message. Don't just send the like later. Personally, I feel like if I've LinkedIn with somebody and I'm connected then I'm somewhat vouching for them so I don't just accept random LinkedIns. Like, everybody, I've accepted for the most part are people I've actually met in person. But then we go to these conferences and somebody sent me a request and I don't remember them so it's like just send a little message with them, take the two seconds to write. Jeff: Yeah, and make it from the heart. We can smell of that. Come on. I think MarketMuse is cool. Oh really do you? I do too. So I guess we are connected I love the thing but you know. Chuck: There you go. All right well I appreciate your time and thank you, everybody, for taking the time to listen and see you soon.   Links and Resources: MarketMuse MarketMuse coupon code (mentioned in the podcast): QLBMM Email Jeff Twitter LinkedIn

James: So few things; we want to go through some of the markets and some of the value-add stuff and I think you do a lot of student housing things. Also, we can go through that as well. Yeah, that should be what it is. And okay, let me just get started. So 1 2 3...  Hey audience, welcome to Achieve Wealth Podcast where we focus a lot on value-add real estate investing. Today, we have Jeff Greenberg who has more than 40 years experience in management, staff supervision, development, and training. Jeff has been investing since 2007 and has more than 40 million multi-property projects consisting of around 2,000 units. So deals that he controls consist of student housing and some of the multifamily units across, Georgia, Arizona, Texas, and Ohio. And Jeff focuses a lot on value-add student housing, which is very interesting. Until now, we have a lot of podcast interview on conventional multifamily in workforce housing, but now, we're going to talk a lot more about student housing. Jeff has also done market rate and also senior living multifamily properties. Hey, Jeff, welcome to the show.  Jeff: Well, how you doing today?  James: I'm good. So thanks for coming in. I want to go with more details on how did you get started because you rent a thousand units across different states. So can you describe to our listeners and audience on how did you get started?  Jeff: Well, probably similar to a lot of other people, I started out with single-family, but actually never did any single family deals. That was in 2007 when the prices were going down so fast that it was hard to do much in the single-family area as far as REO properties, the bank's weren't releasing them. So I did bump into a guru and so I did go to seminars and did get some mentoring around in 2007-2008. And then started with my first property that I ever bought, other than my own personal residence, was a 20-unit property and it was a syndicated deal.  So we brought in investors into that first deal and that was essentially my entry into it. skipped right past all the single-family stuff. James: And what year was it, Jeff? Jeff: That was the first property we bought, actually it was in 2010. James: Okay. So 2010 you started with 20 units and the guru and the cost that you had taken was that more multifamily or was it more a single-family size? Jeff: It was all multi-family stuff.  James: Okay, got it. So you got into that and then you started buying 20 units and which market was that?  Jeff: Well, that Market was in Harlingen, which is in South Texas. Okay. It's near Brownsville and McAllen, for those people that know that area.  James: Okay. Okay. So 2010 was supposedly supposed to be a perfect time to start investing in real estate after the 2008 crash. So can you describe what happened in your first deal? I mean at high level and what happened and how did you come up, in terms of the results for the first day of... Jeff: Yeah. The first deal, that property was only three years old. It was built in 2007. It was a hundred percent occupied and it was in a very slow growth market. So we had big plans for raising rents and they were already paying electric so we were planning on billing back water. And the problem was it was very difficult to raise the rents. We were getting a lot of resistance and doing the bill back of the water, we met with a lot of resistance. So we had nowhere else to go. It was already a hundred percent occupied because it was a new property. And so that was a plan which didn't work very well because we couldn't get those rents up. It took them a long time to get the rents up. So the lesson learned from there was that you needed to do more research on to the potential for the value-adds. And in that property, we held it for six years; we were supposed to sell in five. We held it to 6 because we drew a line in the sand as far as what price we would take and it took us an extra year before we are able to get that price in order to get the investors a fair return. But it took us an extra year. Otherwise, there wouldn't have been much much of a profit on that property. So it was a seminar.   James: I mean, that's awesome that you're sharing your first lessons learned, right? Because sometimes you know, we forget that there are things that we missed out or there are things that you know, we don't really see it when you go and buy a multi-family. Sometimes you buy in a hot market and it went up 200-300%. People think that they did the work but that's not going to be the case all the time. Jeff:  Well, that's basically what happened on the next property though. So the next property was a property we bought in Houston where it was a foreclosed property that we were buying it. The owner we were buying it from actually bought it as a foreclosure so he had had it for about two years. It is 62 units so he bought it for 600,000 and we bought it for 1.3 after he had it for two years and so we got it for about under 21,000 a unit.  And at the time, in Houston, the values were going from 25,000 to maybe 35,000 a unit so we still bought it under market value and then in three years, we sold it for 2.7 million. And the reason we got that value part of it, it was 85 percent occupied when we got it. We got it up to 95 percent occupied. The revenue was about 36,000, we got it up to about 42,000. But also at that time, the cap rates compressed so we bought it at a 9 cap and sold it at a 7 cap. So we got the advantage of the market, the market appreciation as well as what we did for it so that was a perfect storm for us. So it completely made up for our first one, in that the investors got a 120% return on a three-year whole. So a 40% annualized return, which nobody complained about. James: Yeah, absolutely.  Jeff: But that's unusual and that was totally different from the other property where the investors got a lot better than they would have in the bank, but they didn't get a fantastic return. So different properties, different deals.  James: So I mean that too is conventional multifamily, right?  Jeff: Yeah. James: And how many conventional multifamilies did you do before you start hitting into student housing?  Jeff: Well, the next one after that actually was a student house. I mean, I was invested in another person's deal that was about 700 units 20 million dollar deal that we were in. But the next deal I did after that, actually, we broke up our partnership. My partner back decided not to do real estate anymore and I continued on my own and that's when I got a small property in Ohio. I had a 19-year-old student that went and found this property for me in Oxford, Ohio, and that's when I got into student housing. So we were talking, we mentioned earlier as far as how it getting into student housing, I really didn't plan on it. It was my intern that found the property and said, "Hey, let's get this," and the numbers look good and we got into it. So that was our first student housing deal in Oxford.  James: Yeah. I mean, I'm going to go a bit deeper into that. But I mean you are now in California, you are based California, but you have been buying in McAllen, Texas and Houston and Ohio. So how did you decide on where to go or is it just whatever opportunity that comes to you?  Jeff: Well, I've been pretty opportunistic, basically, when an opportunity comes in. Right now, we're kind of reversing out a little bit and trying to do more focus on markets. But at that point in time, we were just looking at opportunities and when an opportunity came we did our research on the market and did it afterward, rather than doing it up ahead of time. We decided do we really want to be in this market and if we did then we went up to the property. But it was more properties came to us from different directions. The one in Georgia, I had a lady working with me that I had trained and she developed a relationship with a broker in Georgia and that was pretty much where we got the Georgia property from, which was our next student housing property.  James: So one thing I want to clarify. You said you had an intern and you have this lady that you have been training. So do you have interns working for you or do you have students that are looking for deals? Jeff: Yeah. The first one was an intern that I had trained and then after that, there was a group of people that came to me and asked me to train them and so I started training them and teaching them how to find properties. And in the last three years, we've done a couple of deals together, but they basically found the properties. Yeah, and you know that I've been training them as we've been going, showing them a lot of the different aspects of it; doing due diligence with them and taking them on the tours with a lot of those students. Since then things have changed a little bit but at that time, those were people that I have trained. James: So is it like part of your mentoring program or you just train for fun kind of thing? Jeff: It wasn't a formal mentoring program, but it was kind of a mentoring program.  James: Okay got it. Jeff: But it was just more informal that I had helped people and in turn, they would bring properties in and if I like them, would go after them. Say it saves me underwriting a hundred deals to find one, they would underwrite a hundred deals, bring me one and I'd only have to look at a few of them. So much of our deals that I had to look at, you know, when they would bring them supposedly all ready to go and I would decide yay or nay on them if I liked them. James: Okay, got it. So coming back to the student housing and you said one of your interns found it. And, I mean, can you describe how did he find that deal?  Jeff: Well, he was embarrassed to tell me, actually. He was embarrassed to tell me until after we had closed that he actually found in on LoopNet. And you know there are deals on LoopNet but usually, they're overpriced or maybe there's some other problem with them and it so happened that the seller was beaten up by two other buyers prior to my purchase. We got it for a much lower rate. So at the price that we got it at,  it was a great deal but at the original price, it wouldn't have been.  James: Got it. Got it. So let's describe the process. So this intern brought you the deal. So what are the few things that you look at the deal that you think you're going to take a second look at it? Jeff: Well, I mean several things. The one thing I had my interns do is I want to do as little work as possible myself. So I told them I want bullet points on why I want to be on that market, you know, what's the advantages of this market? With student housing, the emphasis is more on the school, but all the different reasons that this is a great market to be in and also as well as the numbers for the property itself.  And basically, they have to come in and give me a sales pitch and convince me with a presentation that this is a deal I want to do. And on the regular market rate ones, you know the typical stuff with the employment and the population growth and the age of the population and all of that typical stuff that we look at. Over the student housing, it's the size of the college, the percentage of rooms available on campus versus off campus, basically, the health of the university. The location of the property, how close it is to the university, those kinds of things that we look for more so on the student housing. James: So, can you go a bit more, dig deeper into how far from the campus which you consider in campus versus other campuses? Jeff:  Well, as far as what we look for, typically, we want something within a mile of the campus. My Georgia one is a block away, my Ohio one is within what they call a Mile Square. My Arizona property is a little bit farther out. It's two miles off campus and that one, it's a little bit more of a struggle but you're not going to get the prime rates and we understood that because when you're two miles out. So you want it close by the campus, you want it on the right side of the campus, rather than way away from the classrooms where people still have to walk a mile across the fields to get to campus. So you want to be on the the the closer side where the classes are but it will help you out also if you're near. the bar district or where all the hangouts are that sometimes will make up for being a little bit far from the campus.  If you're where all the hangout places, the cool places are that helps you out. The other thing in student housing is the bedroom bathroom parody. If you could get a one-on-one with a one-bedroom and one bathroom that's going to be a lot better than your four twos or your 3 ones or whatever. The more bathrooms you have, they like that. Also, it seems that student nowadays, they want to share with fewer people. So a 4-2 wouldn't be as popular as a 2-1, you know where you still got two people sharing a bathroom, but you only have two people that have to get along with each other. And if you could get a 1-1, you're even better off; that they're a lot happier with.  In fact, I was talking to someone the other day that I had some 4-2 that I actually split them in half and made two ones out of them. Just had to put a kitchenette in order that they have fewer people to share. James: Okay, interesting. So have you started focusing fully on student housing now or you're still doing conventional multifamily? Jeff:  We're doing both because I do like the fact that people mess up student housing and it gives us an opportunity, you know, everybody we know from the groups we're in, everybody's looking for value-add multifamily, but there are fewer people looking for value-add student housing. And so that just gives me a little bit of an advantage on that. But other than that, I mean that's the main reason I'm looking at student housing is that there are fewer people looking at it and if you know what to do with the student housing, there are certainly some great opportunities. I don't think I would recommend it as somebody's first opportunity, the first investment because there is a little more risk into it, but it's a good asset class.  James: So let's discuss some of the risks that's involved with student housing. So can you outline a few risks that a newbie should watch out for student housing?  Jeff: Yeah. Well, part of the risk is missing the lease up window, wherein multifamily if you don't get it leased it up this month, maybe I'll lease it up next month. But on student housing, if you get it leased up by a certain time and each campus is usually different, if you don't get it leased up in time, during that time, you may be stuck with empty units for the whole year. So you've got to get it leased up during that time.  The other thing is, you're going to have higher turnover and it depends on the property as well. My Georgia property, we're hardly getting any turnover because there are not a lot of other options in the market. My Ohio property there's plenty of other options so they may go from one property to another each year. Same with my Arizona property, they may switch around. So it's going to depend on what's available at their price range if there's going to be turnover.  My first year on the Ohio property, I think was like 85 percent turnover, which most people will freak out thinking, you know, okay, 85% and it's all at once. It's everybody's gone at the same time. And so, you've got to turn all these units and have them ready for the new tenants coming in. So we always budget for a higher expense as far as because of the turnovers because turnovers, as we know, is one of our bigger expenses so we'll budget for that.  A lot of people think that student housing, you have a lot more in the way of damage and we really haven't seen that, we haven't seen a lot of damage. And the thing is we charge back everything that's caused by the students that not that normal wear and tear. I mean, we get things; wine stains in the carpeting or iron marks where they put an iron down on the carpeting and melted the carpet, shot glasses or beer caps in the garbage disposal. We do get lockouts, you know, where were you're having to fix the door because somebody kicked it in, in order to get in or you get domestic disputes where some boyfriend goes and punches a wall because he's pissed off or something. I mean, we do get some of those but the deposits cover most of that stuff.  James: Got it. I'm sure the parents will pay too, I guess. Jeff: Yeah. Yeah, if it gets beyond the deposit we have then the parents will usually jump in. James:  And how much is the turnover cost that you usually budget for student housing like in conventional usually like for me I usually budget like $100 per unit, per year? Jeff: As far as for turnover? James: Yeah. Not repair and maintenance,  just turn over.  Jeff: Well, if we look at the overall repair and maintenance budget usually we're about five or six hundred, overall. And my student housing ones, my Ohio, I believe we're at 1,800 per units. James: Repair and maintenance? Jeff: Yeah. James: Well, that's a lot.  Jeff: I have to lower that down. I don't even think we're using that but that's what I originally put it about. James: Okay. Got it. Yeah. Because usually total repair and maintenance plus turnover is like 500 to maximum $600 on conventional.  Jeff: Yeah, I mean, mainly because of your turnover costs. On that property, we've been painting every wall every time we turn over. I'm not sure if we need that but we've been doing that. It's been a little bit higher. I mean, it's been higher on that one. The other one in Georgia, our turnover costs aren't nearly as much.  James: And what do you expect other than, do you do anything special to reduce your turnover cost? Jeff:  Well, we try to encourage re-leasing and we do give lower rates for those people that are releasing as well as if they release early, we do give them discounts on that. And in the thing is, on my Georgia property, if they release, we may keep their rents at the same rate or maybe just raise it slightly in order to keep them in because that saves us a lot of money. That saves us a lot of money on the turnovers.  James: Okay, correct. What about the interior? Like carpets vs. vinyl vs metal.  Jeff: Typically, I mean, we don't have to make it too fancy. But we do put, I believe in the Ohio one, we've got the role on vinyl flooring. In the bedrooms, we do have carpeting. It's just Formica countertops. We don't need to do anything fancy and that's going to depend as well on the demographics of your clients. My Ohio property is upper middle class. It's Miami University and it's probably an upper-middle-class clientele. My Georgia property is a very low economic clientele, they would be thrilled with anything we put in there. So we just kind of resurface the Formica countertops. We did some chemical wash on the showers and the tubs and repainted everything. We do have nice laminate floors in there, except for the bedrooms. The bedrooms are the only rooms with carpeting. We just painted the cabinets. From the state that they were in, what we did just totally brightened up the property. I mean, just totally changed it. They were a mess and this isn't an old property. That's a 1999 property but there was some old indoor-outdoor carpeting in the hallways that just look just totally disgusting. That we put all vinyl laminate in the hallway and it looks great now. James: Awesome. And what about during the summer? I mean a lot of them don't stay in the unit, right? So they still pay for the summer or does it get re-rent or is it vacant or what's happening? Jeff: Again, that depends on each of our markets. And the Georgia one, I believe we are 70% for this summer, which is high. I think last year we were about 60 percent during the summer. So those that are going to summer school can stay there. But in August, we'll be back up at 98 to 100% on that property.  That was a property we bought at 30% occupied and now we're over 100, we're at 100 like it's not over. We're at 100% occupancy on that one. James: And what about students which is more like, you know, four-year degree versus postgraduate degree, have you tried experimenting with that? Jeff:  You know, my Ohio property, we have some studio apartments and a lot of those are rented to graduates as well as young Professor. So yeah, those are great tenants if you can get them. The graduates, they're a little more mature and you never hear anything from them so those are great on some of the properties. We do have graduates in some properties, but most of them are second-year students. Typically the schools require that the students stay on campus the first year so as freshmen, so we usually get them as sophomores. James: Got it. So coming back to the demand side of it for student housing. I'm just trying to understand but I lost my train of thought here. I mean, for example, let's say the price, in terms of rent, I mean the rent is much higher compared to the normal workforce housing. Do you think that's a benefit as well?  Jeff: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. And the rent is higher than we get more benefit from the additional rent than it costs us on any additional maintenance expenses. So there is a higher cost benefit that we do get from the student housing. So that's one of the things we like. The other thing that we do like also about the student housing is it is fairly recession-resilient and you know, we all know that we're at a high point in our market right now, we don't quite know what's going on, as far as where we're going to be in the economy. And student housing, historically, has done very well during down markets and that's something also that I look at when I look at properties. How well did it do during the last recession and to see how far down it dipped. And typically you find that student housing and as well as self-storage typically do well in those markets. And so that's another reason why we like looking at those deals.  James: Well, yeah, I mean the rationale is people go to school when the economy is downturn right? Jeff: That's part of it. And the other thing is parents are going to try to get their kids into college as soon as they get out of high school because if they lose them to the workforce for a year or two, it's going to be really tough getting them back in. So if a parent is going to be paying for their kid, they are going to find a way to do it. Otherwise, they may not get them in the college later on.  James: Got it. So, in terms of value-add and I'm sure you are trying to make your community, in terms of student housing much better than other communities. So is there one of the value-adds that you do in your community that you think, you know, you will be able to command much higher rent and much higher occupancy? Jeff: Well, the one we haven't really done is the bed to bath parity. And as I mentioned the person that broke a 4 2 into a 2 1 that was a value-add because as I said, the students prefer not to share. If you could add another bathroom, so you've got 2-2 even if it's a small little bathroom, you know, or just a makeup area with a sink that's of great value because the students now don't like to share the bathrooms.  In Ohio, I've got some 4-4s, as well as some 4-2s but they love having their own private bathroom. In Arizona is all 5-2s - five bedrooms, two baths. That's not as desirable. If I could put in some other baths, I would probably you know, make people happy but that's well expensive. That's not a real cost-effective way of doing it. But also in the Georgia property, we put Wi-Fi throughout the property. So essentially, anywhere they get on the campus or on the property they've got the Wi-Fi. So that was definitely a value-add that we put into it. James:  What about other things like study rooms or the Library, the community? Jeff: We just redid our office and we did put in a workspace. James: A workspace, a business center.  Jeff: Yeah a business center. Exactly. We did put in a business center where they could come in and print if they need to print documents because a lot of people, a lot of the kids have their tablets or their laptops or their phones or whatever, but they may not even have printers these days. And I guess a lot of the stuff they submit right online in a PDF to their teacher whatever but we did create the business center so they could come in and print stuff out if they need to. And also have a scanner where they can scan their documents.  The other thing that we were looking at but we may leave for the next owner because we are selling this property, is a picnic area. We haven't built that yet; put a picnic area with some barbecues and that kind of stuff but that's the last phase of what we've been trying to do on this property. The main thing on this property is, the students have loved it, just fixing it up so it's much more livable. It was pretty disgusting when we got there. I mean it was a nasty place and that's why it was 30% occupied. And now, we've got the premium property in the market.  James: Yeah. I mean, there you go. I mean, value-add in terms of managing it. So people love that. Jeff: And then the other thing that we did on this particular property is we got a relationship with the school. We went on campus and talk to all the coaches and told them we wanted them to send their athletes over to the property. And at first, well, the track coach went and looked at us like we were from Mars and said, "Why would I want to send my kids over there?" And then we invited him to come over and look at the property to see what we have done. And now we've got a bunch of athletes over there now after they've seen the improvements we've done.  We also have participated as a sponsor with the athletic department where we give them a donation every year and we've been able to get an advertisement spot on their Jumbotron during all home basketball and football games and so we've been putting our advertisement there. That's why we're essentially 100% with waiting lists on the property. You know, we got a relationship with them, we went and communicated with the police chief and the mayor. The mayor actually came out to our open house wearing one of our t-shirts, the mayor of the city. So we got really involved with the community and it's a small market but we did get involved with that and all of that essentially added value. As I said, we've got a waiting list now, we can raise rents. The main thing that we were emphasizing throughout this two-year hold, we've only had it for a little over two years, was getting the occupancy up. That was the big thing. I wanted the occupancy up, I didn't care about raising rents. Now, we've got the occupancy now, we're going to start raising rents. Or what we're doing is we're actually selling it. So we're leaving it for the next person. The next guy could come in raise rents without having to do anything. They can come in and raise rents without having to do anything just because we've redone this entire property.  James: Awesome, awesome. Very, very, very, very interesting tips on how to get engage in student housing marketing. So what about financing, who gives the financing? Is it still agency loans or is it small Banks or how's that?  Jeff: Well, we'll start off with the Georgia, probably. The Georgia property we paid all cash. At 30% occupied we weren't going to be looking for a lender. Yeah, my Ohio property that was a challenge and it ended up that I went with a privately owned bank. It's not a small bank, it has 36 branches so I wouldn't call it really small but it's privately held and they loan in Kentucky and Ohio, I think. So if anybody's looking for either student housing or lending, they do those two states. They're actually a Kentucky-based lender. The Arizona one was just a regular bridge lender that funded that one and eventually, we'll go out of the bridge into an agency loan.  James: So you think you can get an agency loan on student housing?  Jeff: Yeah. We can get an agency loan. James: Because I know usually when I go to an agency, they usually ask, you know, how many percents are students, how many percents are corporate housing and all that so I'm not sure. Jeff: Yeah, I don't remember if it's Fannie or Freddie that will do student housing. But they do require a certain population. I think it's 15,000 student population, something like that. James: Got it. Oh, really? Okay, that's interesting.  Jeff: Yeah, but I don't remember which one it was but one of them will do agency. James: Yeah, that's awesome. So, let's go back to slightly more personal questions. So do you have any proud moment in your real estate career that you're going to remember for a long time, that you think 'I really, really did something that I'm really, really proud of', do you want to share that?  Jeff: Oh, I could go back to the Georgia property where I had a period that I actually was brought to tears. When we were doing that video that I was talking about that we gave to the school to put on there, our advertisement, I actually went down and did the interviewing of the students myself for that property because I have a background in video. And the stuff that our property management was taking was just horrendous.  I went down there and interviewed the students and I didn't tell them who I was, they didn't know I was one of the owners or the owner. And the last question I asked them was if you had an opportunity to talk to the owner or to let the ownership know, what would you tell them? And some of the answers that I got were just tearjerkers. I mean, I had one girl that said that she was so happy with her new room that she now can actually bring her mom and show her where she lived that she was actually proud of where she was living now. And some of the other students were just saying, how much safer they felt, you know, much nicer environment. We had gotten rid of all the riffraff. We had gotten rid of a lot of people that were not students, but they were just living there and just smoking dope and we had increased the security and we had the police coming by, you know, just to keep things safe. And so just talking to these kids, they're not kids, they are 19- 20-year-old, you know, young adults, but that was one of the most rewarding moments I had. Because here they were, this is a low economic area where most of these students have very disadvantaged upbringing and we were giving them a nice clean safe place to live that they can be proud of.  And they appreciate it much more so than some of the other properties where we may have upper-middle-class people in there that probably don't appreciate what you're doing as much as these guys do. So that was just an absolute, you know, great opportunity to be there with these guys.  James: Yeah. It's very interesting on how we as entrepreneurs and operators change people's lives and it's just so fulfilling when you do that. And for me, It means a lot. Making the money, I mean, this story, you will always remember it. Sometimes you forget about how much money you made in that deal but you will remember how you impacted people's life, which is amazing. Jeff: Yeah, I mean, that's what I think about. I mean certainly we're all going to make money on this deal, you know, a good amount once we sell this but that feeling, you know, I'll have all the time. I mean that was great, you know hearing these guys.  James: So any advice that you want to give for newbies who want to walk your path in multifamily and student housing in general; if they want to be as successful as you? Jeff:  The thing is, find somebody that has walked the walk. You know, it could be a mentor, it could be a formal mentor, it could be somebody that's doing it. If you find somebody in your area or someone you meet up that is successful in whatever it is they're doing, be it multifamily, student housing, you know, senior living whatever; you find somebody else that's successful and find a way of being some kind of service to them. How you can help them out and go to them with that, hey, I would like to help you out. Do something and learn from them. That's the best way to learn anything is to be working with somebody else that's doing it. You know that would be what I would do. I did some formal mentoring in the beginning and that helped me get started. I would have loved to have been working side by side with someone with more experience. As it was, my partner and I were both about at the same level when we started but being around someone that's been there and done that is a great way to start out in this business.  James: Awesome. Awesome. Hey Jeff, we almost there to the end. You want to let our audience know how to reach you?   Jeff: Well, you can email me jeff@synergeticig.com or you could go to my website, which is also www.synergeticig.com  You could also get a hold of me at Bigger Pockets and I'm around on the forms a little bit. James: Yeah, I remember when I was starting in real estate, I used to see you a lot on Bigger Pockets. So it's good. Jeff:  I haven't been on as much lately. I need to start renewing some of that but I was on a lot in the beginning. That got me a lot. I mean it got me on my first podcast so... James: Awesome. Awesome. Well, Jeff, thanks for adding value to our listeners and audience here. I'm sure we learned a lot. I learned a lot as well, in terms of student housing and the nuances of how to add value in student housing and how to operate and at least look at the deal. And so it was very good to have you here, and that's it. Thank you very much and talk to you soon.  Jeff: Thank you.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Todd: Jeff, you mentioned to me that you went across the Amazon in Brazil.Jeff: Yes. Yes. I was going to South America and when I do a trip I don't like to be a regular tourist and just go and sightsee, so I got an idea from a National Geographic magazine to go straight across South America from the Pacific Ocean in Peru, starting in Peru, across to the Atlantic Ocean on the opposite side in Brazil and you have to go through the Andes Mountains and then you have to go across and through the Amazon, so that's what I did.Todd: That's fantastic.Jeff: It was a good trip.Todd: How did you go? Did you travel alone? I mean it must have been dangerous.Jeff: It was. It was dangerous. It was high season, monsoon season, so the river was high, and of course they speak Spanish in South America and I can't speak Spanish and I was traveling alone and I didn't want to travel alone. It's too dangerous, so I had to look for another travel partner who was a little bit as crazy as I was to do this trip, so when I arrived in Lima, the capital of Peru, I started looking around for someone else who looked like a tough, good traveller, and one night in my guesthouse, this bald Russian guy came into the guesthouse carrying a big pack, and he had a big pack with a tent, a sleeping bag strapped to it and he had a big machete hanging off his belt, and I said this guys perfect, so went up and talked to him.Todd: He sounds a little bit like Indiana Jones.Jeff: Oh, he was great. He was a great guy, and his wife is Mexican so he spoke perfect Spanish, so I told him my idea and he was gung ho. He was ready to do it.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Todd: Jeff, you mentioned to me that you went across the Amazon in Brazil.Jeff: Yes. Yes. I was going to South America and when I do a trip I don't like to be a regular tourist and just go and sightsee, so I got an idea from a National Geographic magazine to go straight across South America from the Pacific Ocean in Peru, starting in Peru, across to the Atlantic Ocean on the opposite side in Brazil and you have to go through the Andes Mountains and then you have to go across and through the Amazon, so that's what I did.Todd: That's fantastic.Jeff: It was a good trip.Todd: How did you go? Did you travel alone? I mean it must have been dangerous.Jeff: It was. It was dangerous. It was high season, monsoon season, so the river was high, and of course they speak Spanish in South America and I can't speak Spanish and I was traveling alone and I didn't want to travel alone. It's too dangerous, so I had to look for another travel partner who was a little bit as crazy as I was to do this trip, so when I arrived in Lima, the capital of Peru, I started looking around for someone else who looked like a tough, good traveller, and one night in my guesthouse, this bald Russian guy came into the guesthouse carrying a big pack, and he had a big pack with a tent, a sleeping bag strapped to it and he had a big machete hanging off his belt, and I said this guys perfect, so went up and talked to him.Todd: He sounds a little bit like Indiana Jones.Jeff: Oh, he was great. He was a great guy, and his wife is Mexican so he spoke perfect Spanish, so I told him my idea and he was gung ho. He was ready to do it.

Jeff Fitzsimmons, a professor of radiology at the University of Florida, invented a way to use RF antennas to capture detailed signals from body parts that are undergoing an MRI. A native of Newark, New Jersey, Jeff moved to Florida as a kid, where his dad worked at the (future) Cape Canaveral in the early 1960’s. “One of my biggest thrills,” he says, “was going out to the range with my dad to see a missile fired.” His dad was also a radio amateur, which introduced Jeff to the concept of antennas at a very early age. This came in handy when Jeff was a Navy communications specialist during the Vietnam era and at the National Security Agency. Later in life he formed a successful company that was bought by Philips Electronics. *This episode was originally released on February 20, 2019.* TRANSCRIPT: Intro: 0:01 Inventors and their inventions. Welcome to Radio Cade a podcast from the Cade Museum for Creativity and Invention in Gainesville, Florida. The museum is named after James Robert Cade , who invented Gatorade in 1965. My name is Richard Miles. We’ll introduce you to inventors and the things that motivate them. We’ll learn about their personal stories, how their inventions work, and how their ideas get from the laboratory to the marketplace. Richard Miles: 0:20 Our guest today on Radio Cade is Jeff Fitzsimmons: an inventor with a magnetic personality. And I mean that both literally and seriously, as the saying goes. Jeff is a Professor of Radiology at the University of Florida who invented radio frequency coil arrays for high field MRIs. Welcome to the show, Jeff. And did I get that description right? Jeff Fitzsimmons: 0:20 Yes, you did. Richard Miles: 0:20 So I got it right, only because I read it off a sheet of paper but, I need you to explain, briefly and in layman’s term, exactly what an RF coiler array for MRI means and what it does. Jeff Fitzsimmons: 0:39 Sure. So the best way to think about this is if you’ve ever seen a television antenna or you’ve ever seen a radio tower or you’ve seen a cell tower or any of those devices, those are all radio frequency antennas. The cell phone that you carry around with you has a very tiny radio frequency antenna built in. In fact, it has, it has a number of them built in. And of course in the old days, your television set used to have a radio frequency antenna on the roof. So, the antennas that we designed and built, and the reason they were unique, is that they were designed to pick up signals from parts of your body and so they focused on your shoulder or your hand or wrist or your knee or your foot or your brain or your heart, things like that. So these are custom designed radio-frequency coil arrays that are essentially antenna arrays that are conformed to a particular body part. So, they maximize the signal from that part and give you the best possible image. Richard Miles: 1:35 Okay, great explanation. I think I get it. So these are obviously used in a wide array of applications in hospital settings. Right. So basically anytime you go into an MRI, depending on what hurts or what ain’t working, there’ll be some sort of coil array that will be looking for signals from that part of the body…is that about right? (Jeff: Yes, that’s right.) Okay. All right. So like many inventors, you started out in academia, and then you made the transition through the commercialization of your research and that is a story that is not always successful. In fact, I’m guessing by the numbers, this fails more often than it succeeds. Can you describe a little bit about what led you to that path? I guess what led you to the decision first fall that you had a technology that you thought had market potential, and then what was your thought process as you said, okay, I think this has market potential. Here’s my to do list for the next year or two. Do you remember that far back or you push it out of your mind? Jeff Fitzsimmons: 2:26 Sure. Well, we had serial number three MR scanner here in the United States so that put us at the very leading edge of MR Imaging and we previously had a laboratory with small scale animal imaging. So I had experience building devices and radio frequency antennas for animals like mice and rabbits and things like that. So when we scaled up to the human version, we immediately saw the opportunity to do this with humans. And I remember the first thing we did was look at the human spine because everybody’s interested in their spinal cord and they’re interested in the discs that are in their spine. And so we built an RF coil to image the spine and we put it into this large magnet system. And we made images of the spine that were better than the ones that the manufacturer was making. So they started coming to me over a period of time and I was asked by companies like General Electric to make these things for them, make them available. And my initial reaction was, no, we really didn’t have the team or the wherewithal to do that kind of thing. I was really more interested in the research. So it took some time before the right people came along that I was able to recruit to form the nexus of a company to tackle this problem. B ut I would say, you know, the opportunity sort of came to us to put it that way. Richard Miles: 3:21 You know, what year are we talking about? What’s their timeframe? Jeff Fitzsimmons: 4:16 We’re talking about the late 1970s, early 1980s. Richard Miles: 5:14 And how was a MRI technology generally received or viewed by the medical community then? Was it seen with some kind of new fangled thing that wasn’t really necessary or was it immediately embraced by doctors? Jeff Fitzsimmons: 6:10 Yes, that’s a good question. I have to give a lot of credit to radiologists because radiologists are technology adopters. They like new technology, they get excited about new technology and they’re not, I don’t want to put down other professions or specialties, but because radiologists have this history of going from x rays to ultra sound to computerized tomography. They have gone through any number of large technological shifts that have given them new information. And so they see it as a way to get more information from the human body without cutting you open. So we call this noninvasive imaging. And of course magnetic resonance imaging was a great opportunity to do even more noninvasive imaging. So they were excited about it. They wanted it. Richard Miles: 6:10 So let me hazard a guess here. Were surgeons against this? I mean, did they , did they think it wasn’t as good or that you still needed to do surgery or what was their response initially? Jeff Fitzsimmons: 6:21 Yeah, I think most of the medical community took a wait and see approach. And the early scanners that were put out there, the images weren’t very good. So we may have made an image of the spine, but it was kind of grainy and it wasn’t particularly pretty. You couldn’t see the details that you might like. So there was a period of technical evolution that took a good three to five years just to get it to the point where a radiologist would say, oh, I know exactly what’s happening at c four or know what’s happening at l three, uh , that took some time and then even much longer to become what it is today. Today, the resolution of a modern MR scanner is astounding. I mean, it’s, it’s better than you can do by cutting your body open. Richard Miles: 6:57 Jeff, I heard you talk earlier about there’s a common perception out there as people develop new technologies or companies based on new technologies, the examples you’re looking for or the Googles and the Facebooks and sort of the big cash outs, or the Snapchats or whatever we’re talking about. And I think you think that’s unrealistic, right? Tell us, what is your view on, you know, if you are serious about commercializing any technology, how much time do you mentally need to devote to sticking with it before you can expect a good payday ? Jeff Fitzsimmons: 7:55 Yeah, I think people often talk in terms of three to five years and you know, maybe they’ll cash out and go home. And I think those kinds of timeframes are really very, very unrealistic. It becomes more realistic when you start talking about 10 to 15 year timeframes. And so people that are starting out and look, I had several partners that helped me in this endeavor to begin with and they basically worked for free. And so you can anticipate several years of working for free and then several more years of working for peanuts and then several more years after that before you actually get paid. So you know, you’re looking at an endeavor that in terms of actually returning a profit that minimum of 10 years and more likely 15. That’s much more realistic. Richard Miles: 8:38 So better up front to tell your mom you’re going to be sleeping on her couch for a good long while. Jeff Fitzsimmons: 8:44 Or if you borrow money from your parents to start the business, don’t tell them they’re going to get it back in three years. Richard Miles: 8:49 Right. Good advice. All right, let’s back up, Jeff, and talk about sort of pre-success, Jeff Fitzsimmons maybe pre-career. What were you, and I ask this of all guests, I think it’s interesting. Where were you born? Where’d you grow up? What were you like as a kid? Jeff Fitzsimmons: 9:07 So, I was born in Newark, New Jersey, which is neither here nor there in terms of the story. My dad moved to Florida when I was still quite young and he took a job, eventually he had several jobs, but eventually ended up working for RCA at the missile test center. So back then it wasn’t the Kennedy Space Center, it was the Patrick Air Force Base missile test center because it was part of the Air Force. The missile test center was the Air Force basically. So RCA had a huge technical laboratory on the base and my dad worked there. And so I was introduced to computers and telecommunications and satellite communications and things like that when I was a kid. And of my biggest thrills was going with my dad out to the range to see a missile fired. And we’re talking now in the 60s. Right. And so not everybody was going out there to see missiles fired. It was really not even known what they were doing on the Cape at that time. But, my father was also radio amateur. Richard Miles: 10:12 So this is just before the space program? Jeff Fitzsimmons: 10:14 Yes, it was before, Richard Miles: 10:14 before late fifties, early sixties? Jeff Fitzsimmons: 10:16 Early sixties. So, my father was also a radio amateur, so he had in our back porch a complete radio station. And we had antennas going up to trees and various contraptions that were strung around the house and most of it’s self made. I mean he designed and built his own radios. So I became a radio amateur when I was 12 years old. And that was a little premature for most radio amateurs that usually wait until they’re a little bit older, but I was very excited by that and my dad was a great teacher and so I learned a great deal from him. I guess, you know, that’s really the genesis of my involvement in technology was it came from my father’s example. Richard Miles: 10:59 Jeff, were you a good student in school? Jeff Fitzsimmons: 11:01 Initially in, in grammar school I didn’t do that well grade wise because I didn’t have glasses. And, oftentimes I would write the wrong question down and have the right answer to the wrong question. And that wasn’t discovered until sometime later that I was getting bad grades because I didn’t have the question right. And because teachers would put things on the blackboard and I would just write down what I saw and sometimes I get the numbers mixed up. But after I got my glasses, my grades improved. So, I was a pretty good student. I loved science and technology and that would’ve absorbed me completely except I spent a lot of time at the beach surfing. So that kind of put a damper on being too academic. Richard Miles: 11:47 So you obviously stayed in Florida. Did you go to University of Florida as an undergraduate? Jeff Fitzsimmons: 11:51 Um, I did. I went to the University of Florida as an Undergrad. And then, I was drafted, this was during the Vietnam conflict. So, I was taken away from all that for four years. I was in the navy. And then when I came back I went to FIT and then later went back to the University of Florida. Richard Miles: 12:13 Tell us a little about your stint in the navy, what kind of ship were you on and where was it? Jeff Fitzsimmons: 12:17 Well. Um, again, I was very fortunate. I went to a naval communications training center in Corry Field, Florida and there , because I knew the Morse Code and I knew about radios and equipment, I’ve very quickly mastered the program and they made me an instructor. So as a night school instructor, I had a special card that said I could lead the base anytime I wanted to. And so I used to drive home on the weekends, you know, I’d drive to Melbourne, which is a huge drive from Melbourne to Pensacola, Florida. But anyway, I had a little bit of a sense of freedom going through the school. And then I went into the naval communications section of the national security agency. So I basically did electronic espionage, so, I can’t tell you any more than that. I’d have to kill you. Richard Miles: 13:10 Well, fascinating. Our stories intersect actually in a number of ways that you’re not aware of Jeff. One, I actually was a radio, got a third class radio license when I was 10. I took my exam in Tampa, Florida as my dad was a radio broadcaster, he insisted I do it. And I don’t know why, but I remember taking a test in Tampa and I passed it. I was also in the army, intelligence side and my son is in the navy and communications. The only differences , I haven’t had a very successful company, otherwise we’re the same person. So Jeff, you are a big success in Gainesville and certainly not just Gainesville. And I know you get asked for advice a lot, probably asked you to young entrepreneurs or students or engineers or whatnot. Generally what, what are their questions and what are your answers? And have those answers changed? Do you have a different take say on the success of your company when it happened and the success looking back, have you changed your mind on any of those things? Jeff Fitzsimmons: 14:20 Well, I think the first thing people come to you for is money. I mean, 9 times out of 10, whenever somebody finds me, they say they want technical advice and they want guidance and they want mentorship. But what they really want is money and investment in their company. So, I have to inform them that I do invest in startup companies, but there are a lot of stipulations that go with that. And, first of all, asking them a lot of questions about what they can tell me about what they’re doing. So once again, the typical inventor will come to me with some idea or some device which they think is the greatest thing since sliced bread in which they’re convinced everybody in the planet is going to have to have one. And then we have to work through that illusion and try to pare it down to the people who actually might buy this thing and what they would pay for it and what the profit margins might be in all those nasty things that you’d have to consider. And so it turns out in the long run that the technology, and I tell this to people all the time, it’s great to have a great idea. I love it. It’s exciting. It’s fun, you know, but it’s not near enough, you know, it’s just only the beginning. And so what they need more than anything is they need a small team, a core group of people who are dedicated to the mission, who understand the mission, they understand the technology, they understand the purpose of it, the broader implications of it, and they are willing to dedicate themselves to it’s future. And so we were very blessed and very fortunate in that regard. I had two or three people working in my laboratory at the time on campus. And so when we formed our company, those people transitioned off to working for the company. But you know, I didn’t have to recruit them because they were already graduate students and other people that were in my research group. So I sort of stole from my own research group and then hired people back into it, you know, over time. What I find is most successful technology groups, they grow like that. They get people to move from one place to another to join a particular effort. But it can’t really be about the money. And thats another thing, you know, you can’t tell people enough, forget about the money. You know, you’re not going to see any real money for a very long time. So you have to be sustained on the mission and on your enthusiasm and determination. And so the word persistence comes up a lot. You have to go at it and keep going at it and be persistent in the face of whatever the odds are. If you have any chance of success, you just have to be quite determined. Richard Miles: 17:07 So as you look at your portfolio of investments that have sorta paid off and those that have not, have you been able to spawn a common denominator in terms of the quality of the CEO or the colleague of the senior managers ? Set aside for a moment, um, you know, the idea itself, right? I presume you don’t invest in ideas you think are bad. Right ? You probably thought they were all good. And then let’s set aside, you know, some regulatory hurdles that nobody could have predicted. Is there something, looking back on a success as you go “Gosh, I think it was this factor.” Jeff Fitzsimmons: 17:43 Yeah. We’ve done that retro analysis a lot and I’ve also had the opportunity to look at dozens of companies over the past 10 or 15 years apart from the one that I was intimately involved with and I oftentimes boiled it down to one word. And it’s integrity. People have to have rock solid integrity. If the people in the company can’t be a hundred percent honest with each other and can’t tell each other to their face when they think they’re wrong or they’re right or they’re indifferent, the company doesn’t have much of a chance. If there’s some kind of gaming going on and someone’s trying to BS somebody about what the value is or what something does or doesn’t do, it’s doomed to failure at the beginning. So more than anything, and I know this isn’t an easy thing to assess and I don’t delude myself into thinking I know how to assess it exactly. But I do know that individual integrity over time turns out to be one of the most important ingredients because that’s where honesty comes from. That’s where trust comes from. And if you can’t build something on trust, that’s all the highly successful companies today. That’s what they build their future on is trust. You know, if you can’t get a large number of people to trust you, you don’t have a chance. Richard Miles: 19:04 And it sounds like candor is one of those as well because what you’re saying reminds me of , you’ve probably read the book, it came out what about 10 years ago , Startup Nation, right about Israel and it talks about these fascinating examples inherent in Israeli culture. One of them being the military, right, where you have these very flat hierarchies and you have private space, telling generals where they went wrong. Something that you probably didn’t see a lot of. I didn’t in the US military. But what that does is it speeds up that self-correction loop, right. In that if you’ve got everybody in your company telling you bad idea. And you trust them, you’re able to either avoid or pull out of mistakes a lot faster. So it sounds like that’s kind of a key ingredient. Jeff Fitzsimmons: 19:50 Absolutely. You know, because look, everybody’s going to make mistakes. That’s a given. The real question is, my old boss, Clyde Williams, was an MD Phd Rhodes Scholar, brilliant guy. He was the Chairman of Radiology for many years. And he’d say, Jeff, you’re job is to make mistakes faster. Figure it out, get over it, and move on. Don’t dwell on your mistakes. Don’t invest in your mistakes. Don’t wallow in your mistakes. You know, lay it on the table, look at it. Go yup, it was a mistake I made. It is time to move on. Richard Miles: 20:23 It’s interesting he didn’t say deny the mistake. Confront that and move it on. Jeff Fitzsimmons: 20:29 Yeah, that’s key. The candor aspect of it is very important and I relate that or call certain integrity. Richard Miles: 20:36 So Jeff , I’m coming up with a business model now. I think what we’re going to do is bottle your advice and we’re going to go ahead and sell it on the website. You just have to wait 20 years for it to pay off. That’ll be in the small print. Jeff, thanks has been fascinating. Thanks for joining us on Radio Cade . And I look forward to having you and your great ideas back on the show. Jeff Fitzsimmons: 21:00 Thank you. Richard Miles: 21:01 Thanks for listening. I’m Richard Miles. Outro: 21:08 Radio Cade would like to thank the following people for their help and support. Bob McPeak of Heartwood Soundstage in Downtown Gainesville, Florida for recording, editing, and production of the podcasts and music theme. Tracy Collins for the composition and performance of the Radio Cade theme song featuring violinist, Jacob Lawson and special thanks to the Cade Museum for Creativity and Invention located in Gainesville, Florida.

Jeff talks about going to the reading and Q&A for Frederick Smith and Chaz Lamar's In Case You Forgot. The guys also talk about their recent trip to see the musical The Drowsy Chaperone starring Bruce Vilanch. It's a Heidi Cullinan double feature this week as Will reviews Nowhere Ranch and Jeff reviews The Doctor's Secret. Jeff talks with Jacqui Greig, the creator and editor of Blush magazine. Jacqui talks about why she created the magazine and what sparked her love of all things romance. We also find out about the books that she writes and how she encourages anyone who is interested to start an online magazine. Complete shownotes for episode 197 along with a transcript of the interview are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Interview Transcript – Jacqui Greig This transcript was made possible by our community on Patreon. You can get information on how to join them at patreon.com/biggayfictionpodcast. Jeff: Thanks for coming to the podcast Jacqui it is so great to have you here. Jacqui: My absolute pleasure. Jeff: So Will and I have loved “Blush” since the first issue came out and. Jacqui: Thank you. Jeff: I love what one of the things on the website that talks about you where it says “I may or may not have started this publication and in order to fangirl my favorite authors without getting slapped with a restraining order.” Jacqui: Pretty much. Jeff: Which sounds so awesome. It’s like a mission statement. Jacqui: But it’s so true. I used to finish reading a book and then I just I loved it so much that I wanted to be best friends with the author. I wanted to know everything about them. I just you know wanted to delve into their heads I guess. And that’s kind of what “Blush” lets me do. Yeah without getting hit with a restraining order. Jeff: We feel the same way about the podcast it’s so great to just dive in with these folks. Jacqui: Yeah absolutely. Jeff: Tell us a little bit for our listeners who may not have discovered blush yet. What is the magazine kind of all about besides obviously of course romance books? Jacqui: So essentially, it’s an online magazine for romance readers. So I just wanted something that was specific for people who read romance and there’s already so many amazing blogs and podcasts that I just thought a magazine would be a fun way of getting that information across. And yeah. So it’s kind of interviewing authors, looking at the different books that are coming out at the moment, the different trends in the industry. I’m calling it an online digital platform. There’s even things like I imagine what a particular heroine in a book would wear. And I based a fashion page on that. So it’s just kind of interpreting the romance genre in different ways. Jeff: It really is because you go so much further than a Book Review blog or like what we do on the podcast because you do have, as you mentioned, the fashion thing or I believe in June it was the ‘book crush’ with Jamie Frazier which everybody can have that crush, right? Jacqui: Right? Jeff: There are elements of reviews that work their way in, but then you do some dives on the industry too, or talking about tropes and such. Jacqui: Yeah. I think that’s probably my background in journalism as well. I used to work on magazine in Sydney. I worked in a travel magazine and on a hair magazine of all things. And then I started my own magazine, a women’s lifestyle magazine, which was print – that was more than 10 years ago now. So the industry has evolved so much since then and it’s so much easier to do a digital magazine than it is a print magazine. Yes. So I just thought I’d give it a go. Jeff: How do you decide what goes in to each issue. Because there’s so many things to pick from. Jacqui: I know there’s so many things to pick from and it’s actually been a little – it’s getting easier every month because the magazine is getting more widely known and people are actually messaging me, emailing me, then giving me content ideas, which is fantastic, but it’s just whatever I like. Yeah. I don’t know. Whatever I’ve been reading or what I’ve seen or I am quite big on Instagram I get a lot of inspiration there. Jeff: Yeah. And I enjoy watching your Instagram just because it’s so creative. Jacqui: I’m a graphic designer as well so I see lots of cheeky quotes and things like that and I just redesigned them for my own purposes which is fun. Jeff: Your July issue will have been out a short time by the time this episode airs. What can readers find in July? Jacqui: So I’m super excited. In July I have three authors that I definitely fangirl over. So I’ve got Eve Dangerfield. I’ve got an interview with her. I have an interview with Sarah MacLean and an interview with Abbi Glines. Jeff: Wow. Three of them are all in the same issue. Jacqui: Yeah, well in my very first issue I had Beverly Jenkins and Kylie Scott and I thought, “Right, I’m happy to finish this right now. I’ve reached my peak.” That was epic for me. I think romance authors are so generous with their time and knowledge and it’s just such a beautiful, interesting industry to be in. Jeff: Yeah, it really is because there’s so many warm people who are just happy to tell their story and tell everybody about their books. What are the regular sections that readers look for each month? Jacqui: So I generally start with a ‘Lust-Haves’, which is just kind of products/bookish things that basically I would like to be spending my money on. I think in one issue I had a pair of cashmere socks that were like one hundred and ten dollars and I had a girlfriend calling me, she said, “You didn’t buy those, did you?” I didn’t. I’d like to. So yeah, we did ‘Lust-Haves’, we do an IG profile. I pick an Instagram account that’s really inspiring and has gorgeous images and profile them. We’ve got our author interviews. I generally have a couple of features. So for example, in the current issue we did one on the rise of rural romance. So it’s basically Australian authors writing romance set in rural settings… on farms which is really lovely. I live in a small country town myself, so I can really identify with that. We do a ‘Book Crush’ every issue. So that’s just a hero that we’ve got a bit of a crush on at the time and it’s really fun to contact the author and find out what they had in mind when they were writing that character. I get them to share their Pinterest pages with inspiration that they drew when writing, which I love. And there’s a bookshelf at the back, which features a lot of books, and it’s a really great showcase for indie authors I think. So yeah, that’s kind of it. Jeff: You say that’s kind of it, but that’s a lot. I mean, there’s a lot of stuff that goes into these issues. What kind of overall timing and process goes into creating a single issue? Jacqui: Well, having done in my previous life the print lifestyle magazine that was a whole circus. So I had staff and we had an office and because that I was spending forty thousand dollars an issue just to print it. So it was big. Right. So because [Blush] is digital – it’s online – my overheads are tiny, it’s literally me sitting at my kitchen table and, I have I don’t have it here, but I literally designed up on an A3 bit of paper for weeks and split it into the days and split the jobs across it and I laminated it so that I can write over the top of it – every issue. And it’s actually not too involved I think because I know what I’m doing. And I love what I’m doing. And I think as a working mother you become… I just have to get shit done. Like I just, I’ve got no windows in between kids being at school or ballet lessons or you know all of that kind of jazz. I just have to really, really be productive with my time and bang it out. Jeff: And I think the online magazine in a lot of ways gives you a much broader design to work with than if you were locked in to any kind of website format. Jacqui: Yeah, I think it’s fun because you can flip through the pages. It kind of it feels interactive and you can, you know, I can put gifs onto the pages so there’s movement, there’s different animations that you can use. And it’s just readers really like the tactile experience of a physical magazine. And because I can’t do that, I think a digital magazine – it is still something different from a blog post and not to say that, you know, there’s some fantastic blogs out there, but this is just a different format. Jeff: Yeah, it’s a different medium, but it’s going to be interesting, I think to see if other people move in that direction. I think we’re all so used to seeing blogs that this is another similar but different way to go. Jacqui: Yeah, it’s just a bit fun, little bit different. Jeff: July is also kind of a milestone for you because it’s six months old for the magazine – issue number six. What’s your favorite thing to write about so far in those six months? Jacqui: I think the interview with Beverly Jenkins, that was kind of amazing. She’s an icon in the industry and she’s so generous and I couldn’t believe that she’s giving me the time of the day, especially because I hadn’t published a magazine by that stage. I literally had nothing to show her. She just kind of said, “Yeah sure.” So that was really incredible. I do freelance digital marketing, which I’ve just stopped, and I’m focusing all my energy on ‘Blush’ because I really want to give it a go. I felt like I was building other people’s dreams, helping them build their dreams and I wasn’t really putting any time into my own. So yeah, I’m kind of all in with this. I got skin in the game now. Jeff: That’s awesome. It’s a good feeling. Jacqui: Yeah, it really is. And I do need to say my husband is super supportive and I’m very lucky. But yeah, like this is my gig now. Jeff: What’s surprised you over the six months. Jacqui: I don’t know if it was surprise. It was probably just reinforced how wide and how deep this romance genre is and how amazing it is. I mean, if Alexa Riley can beat Michelle Obama in the rankings on Amazon, that’s huge. Jeff: And you’re right about the romance genre being so big. I have found, so far, that you try to cover seemingly all of it. You’ve featured all kinds of romance including LGBTQ romance. Jacqui: Well, that’s a that’s a big sector and it’s valid and I know that, especially in the states, you’ve been having a lot of diversity talk at the moment – and so you should. ‘Blush’ is a vehicle for the romance industry and I want it to encompass all aspects of that. Jeff: And we talked a little bit before we started recording that it was ‘Blush’ that first put ‘Red, White & Royal Blue’ on our radar as the thing we needed to watch out for in the spring. Jacqui: Well, I’m sure you hadn’t seen it with me, you would have seen it very soon because it has been so well received and validly So like she’s amazing, Casey’s [McQuiston] she’s going places. Jeff: Yeah, absolutely. What got you into romance? Jacqui: So my parents owned a newsagent when I was younger. And romance novels were distributed by magazine companies, which meant that if they didn’t sell, it was cheaper to rip the cover off and throw it out than it was to send it back to the company. So I used to scavenge through the back bin and I just fell into it. I read to my heart’s content. The only problem was, that because it didn’t have a cover, I knew the title, but without that image on the top on the cover and the title, I can’t remember any of them. And probably I was reading so many of them, I was just kind of consuming them. But yes, so that’s how I got into it – scavenging. Jeff: That is awesome. What a great way to get books. Jacqui: I know right. I mean it’s so demoralizing and awful for an author to think about – that’s how some of your books may end up. I don’t know if that’s still the practice – I would hope not. But yeah, that’s back when I was 12 or 13. That’s how we did it. Jeff: On the other hand, I mean how terrific that it must be – Yes, they didn’t get paid for – but they inspired somebody to go out and create something like this later in life. Jacqui: Well that’s true. That’s a really nice way of looking at it. Oh, thank you. Jeff: You can’t remember some of the titles and authors obviously, but do you remember what tropes and what sort of elements of the story fueled your interest in the genre? Jacqui: I read a lot of the historicals, which I loved. But I kind of stopped reading for a while – going through high school and then university – and got back into it with Kylie Scott, who’s an Australian author who wrote a romance in a zombie apocalypse, which is very far removed from historical romance, but freaking awesome. She wrote two books and a novella and then found mainstream success with her Rockstar romances. But she kind of got me back into reading romance, her and Amy Andrews who is another Australian author. She’s got a ‘Sydney Smoke’ rugby series, which is a series of books set around a rugby team in Sydney and she just has the dialogue down pat, like she is so dynamic with her writing. Yeah, she is really, really incredible. I think those two got the ball rolling to get me back into it and now I don’t really have a favorite trope or a favorite genre. I will literally read anything you put in front of me. I will read it. Jeff: That’s awesome. I’m kind of the same way. Will has is his thing where he likes contemporary/low angst – may take a few diversions off that path… But if I like the blurb, I’m at least game to see where it goes. Jacqui: Exactly. Yep. I’m with you. Jeff: Now, since we are an LGBTQ romance podcast, what are some of your recent reads, kind of in that genre. Jacqui: So what I’ve really loved is that some of my favorite authors are diversifying. I guess they’re going into that queer space. So Kate Canterbury, she wrote The Walsh series – which I devoured I loved – and then it’s an offshoot. There’s a lobster fisherman who marries Aaron and Nick in book 6. And So the lobster fisherman he gets his own book and he falls in love with a tech tycoon. And honestly it was one of the hottest romances I’ve ever read. Like it was. She nailed it. And that was her first male/male book. And I just went, “Oh wow, you’ve done such a good job.” Also Tessa Bailey she wrote a male/male. What’s it called… I wrote it down. ‘Heat Stroke’. She wrote ‘Heat Stroke’ which is just really sweet. And the relationship between the two men, it was so believable and she’s really good at characterization. She’s fantastic, but my absolute favorite of mine is Sierra Simone, who wrote the ‘Camelot’ series. So it starts with ‘American Queen’ goes to ‘American Prince’ and I actually haven’t read the third one because I got a spoiler and I don’t have the emotional fortitude at the moment. Jeff: I understand how that it goes. Jacqui: But she just writes… So it’s a male/female/male, but the two guys, they’ve been in love for so long before Greer, the woman, actually comes into it and just the depth of their love for each other. And she’s, I mean, it’s kind of filthy – the writing, but awesome. It’s emotional and it’s just, yes, she’s fantastic. Jeff: Since you look at romance really from around the world for ‘Blush’, because you’re in Australia and have read so many Australian authors, do you see a difference of what romance is around the world – what gets written into the books from the native authors? Jacqui: I think that a lot of Australian authors are actually setting their books in the US. I don’t know if that’s a marketing thing or if that’s just what they read and that’s what they want to write, but then there’s a whole crop of Australian authors who are writing rural romance, which is set on an Australian farm as opposed to an American ranch. So you know there are differences in words I guess. I don’t know. Apart from that though, I kind of think everyone’s just writing their own happily ever after. And it’s and in different ways, using different tropes, different locations. I do wish that there were more Indigenous Australians writing romance novels. I think that would be amazing. There are some amazing Indigenous authors, just not so many writing romance, so that that would be really incredible to see. I actually am writing as well. I’m sure everyone who reads is trying to write as well. So I’ve just published my second book, but I would like to co-author a book with… I grew up in a small country town with a high indigenous Aboriginal population. So I went to school with all of these Aboriginal girls and I need to make contact with them and see if one of them will sit down with me and co-write a book, a romance from their point of view. I think that would be amazing. I don’t think that I would have the guts, I guess, to write from that point of view, even if I had a sensitivity reader come in and read it afterwards. I really do think that their issues and their worldviews and, you know, they have their differences and you’ve got to do justice to that. Jeff: So what do you write? Tell us a little bit about your books. Jacqui: Well my full name is Jacqueline, and my maiden name is Hayley, so they’ve written under Jacqueline Hayley. And second, which literally I published yesterday, it’s ‘Getting Under Her Skin’, and it’s set in Sydney. So they’re contemporary romances that are a little bit sexy, I don’t think I really want my mum reading them. Jeff: Yeah that’s awesome. Any chance of a male/male book in your future? Jacqui: Yeah, I think So but I think that, again, I would want to team up with a gay male author to help me do that. Like, I just I don’t want to presume that I would know their life experiences. So I think that would be super fun. Jeff: I hope you get to do that. We’d have to have you back on the show to talk about that when it comes out. Jacqui: Absolutely. Jeff: What can you tell us about upcoming issues [of ‘Blush’] for the rest of this year? Jacqui: Oh, the rest of this year. So I’m actually heading to the Australian Romance Writers Association, their annual conference is in Melbourne, and I have lined up some authors that I’m going to do video interviews with as bonus content for my readers. So we’re just finalizing the details of that, but I do think that video, which can be embedded into the magazine – in the magazine we also find YouTube clips and things as well, the digital magazine format allows for that, which I think is really fun. The video will start to become a little bit more of a thing with the magazine, as much as I don’t really want to see myself on video, I think that it would be really fun for authors, who are normally behind the pen – behind the computer – and you don’t see their faces or hear them. I think that that would be a really fun thing to do. Jeff: Very much looking forward to that. It’s great seeing how the video gets in there to really make this interactive magazine. What’s the best way for people to keep up with ‘Blush’ online and how do they get the subscription? Tell us all about that. Jacqui: So at the moment, to be able to read the magazine, you have to head to the website which is blushmagazine.com and sign up with your email address. So it’s free. And then the magazine gets emailed to you, well a link to the magazine gets sent to you, so that you can view the magazine. Previous issues are available on the website, so you can you can click through there, but probably I’ most prolific on Instagram. That’s kind of where that’s my jam. That’s what I like doing. So you know, for cheeky quotes and books that are coming up, all the behind the scenes of what I’m doing here, that’s Instagram, is where it’s at. Jeff: Very cool, and can readers of the magazine get in touch and suggest ideas? Jacqui: Absolutely. I love it. The interaction is one of the best things that I love about what I’m doing, so I get DMs on Facebook, Instagram, and my email is hello.BlushMagazine@gmail.com. Jeff: And what would you say to anybody who is like, “Gosh, I really like that. Maybe I should start my own.” Jacqui: Yeah. So I guess have a look at the different platforms that are out there to do a magazine on. I use readymag which I really love. But there’s also issu, which I’m kind of looking at as I get bigger. That might be where I go just because you can get more stats on what particular pages people are staying on longer. That kind of thing. So I guess just have a really clear view of what you want to put in your magazine, you’ve got to structure it like a real magazine. So go and get a physical magazine, you need a contents page and an editor’s letter and kind of build it from there, but just know that readers like continuity, so if you’re going to start a section, you’ve got to kind of continue it. So have a really clear idea of what kind of content you want to do. I haven’t done this and I probably should have build up content so that you’re an issue ahead of yourself so that, you know, just to for timing I guess, that would make life easier. I like making things hard for myself. Give it a go, like why not? Compared to the money that I used to put into print publishing, digital publishing… there’s barely any any cost. So yeah, give it a go. Jeff: Cool. Hopefully somebody will take up the inspiration because – at least the way we feel concerning podcasts, the more podcasts the better, the more magazines the better, the more blogs the better. Jacqui: Built this industry! Jeff: Yes absolutely. Well Jacqui, thank you so much for telling us about ‘Blush’, we’re going to link up to everything we talked about- the authors and the magazine – in the show notes, and we look forward to see what comes out in future issues. Jacqui: Thank you so much for having me. It was just the highlight of my week. Thank you so much. Book Reviews Here’s the text of this week’s book reviews: Nowhere Ranch by Heidi Cullinan. Reviewed by Will. Admittedly, I’m a little late to the party when It comes to this book. When I posted online that I’d finished reading Nowhere Ranch, I got a slew of responses, “Isn’t it the best?”, “That’s my favorite Heidi book.” So, for the few that haven’t yet experienced the sexy wonder of this cowboy romance, Nowhere Ranch is about a young guy named Monroe, Roe for short. He’s the prototypical lone cowboy who’s just landed a job at Nowhere Ranch. On one of his free nights, Roe travels several hours away to the nearest gay bar. To his surprise he runs into his boss, Travis Loving. After some flirty banter and surmising that they are both definitely into each other, they spend one wild night together in Travis’s hotel room. Roe tries to keep things professional with his boss, but Travis is just too damn irresistible. After a trip to the rodeo, he gives into his desire yet again. His hook-ups with Travis are so amazing that he begins to reconsider his ‘no relationships’ policy. When it comes to the bedroom, Roe likes things a little kinky. Travis is more than willing to give him everything he wants. After a rough and raunchy tumble in a horse stall on his birthday, Roe is so turned on and turned around, that he just doesn’t know what to do. Guys, this book is incendiary. I’m no expert when it comes to Heidi Cullinan’s books, but the few that I have read, have ridden that delicious line between sweetly romantic and utterly filthy. The kink explored in Nowhere Ranch isn’t your mommas 50 Shades style slap ‘n tickle. This is hardcore stuff in the best possible way. Back to the story. Hailey, the daughter of the ranch foreman, becomes fast friends with Roe and it becomes her personal mission to tutor Roe so he can get his GED. After learning some English composition basics, Roe writes an essay especially for his boss entitled, “Why Travis Loving Should Fuck Me”. What’s wonderful is that the entire text of the essay is included as part of the story. It’s sweet, it’s funny, and it leads to some more smoking hot sex for our two heroes. Unfortunately, the course of true love never did run smooth. A letter from the family that rejected Roe years earlier, forces him to examine what “home” really means. Home is definitely Nowhere Ranch. Some drama eventually forces Roe to make an unwanted trip to deal with the backwards, judgmental people he once called his family. With Travis and Hailey by his side, he sets things to rights and accepts that he is, in fact, worthy of his very own happily-ever-after. There’s a brief time jump at the end of the story to show us just how happy the happily-ever-after is for Roe and Travis. It’s wonderfully schmoopy and surprisingly sweet for a story that is so dang filthy. It just goes to show, that in the hands of a skilled author, kink doesn’t have to equal dark or angsty. The story of two hot and horny cowboys can be just as swoon-worthy as the lightest of rom-coms. The Doctor’s Secret by Heidi Cullinan. Reviewed by Jeff. This book had me at its cover with its clean design, heartbeat along the top and the handsome doctor. And I snatched the audiobook out from under Will because Iggy Toma was doing the narration. As with my other experiences with Heidi and Iggy, this one was above and beyond. The Doctor’s Secret brings Dr Hong-Wei Wu, or Jack as he tells the staff to call him, to Copper Point, Wisconsin. Hong-Wei’s left a high powered residency and his family in Texas to re-locate to this tiny town that needs a surgeon. He also hopes to lead a quiet life here. That’s derailed almost as soon as he steps off the plane because he meets Simon Lane, the hospital’s surgical nurse and the person who was dispatched to pick him up. Simon wasn’t quite ready for the attraction either. He’s in Copper Point working alongside his two best friends who all wanted to stay and give back to their home town–a place so small Simon’s sure he’ll never find a man for him. Hong-Wei is torn from the beginning because he came to Copper Point to get away from complications, but he can’t deny the immediate attraction to Simon. He tends to put himself under a tremendous amount of pressure to always do the right thing, even if that means saying yes to things he doesn’t want. As Simon learns more about Hong-Wei–from his love of classical music as well as his dislike for most pop music, his love of Taiwanese food and even the meticulous way he wants his operating room set up–only made him fall for the man more. Simon’s incredible from the get go. Instead of using “Jack,” Simon wants to use Hong-Wei’s given name and takes the time to learn how to pronounce it. It’s super adorable too how Simon can’t believe Hong-Wei might be flirting with him–their interactions at the hospital are super cute as they both easily get flustered. Their potential relationship comes with great risk. Copper Point is a small town with small town drama and shenanigans. St. Ann’s Hospital has a stranglehold on its employees with a hospital board that attempts to rule with an iron fist. This includes a no-dating policy. As they grow closer though, Hong-Wei’s having none of it, insisting he’ll protect Simon. Simon’s friends Owen and Nick, also doctors at the hospital, help the two get together in secret. As you can imagine neither men want to live in secret, and the more they fall for each other it becomes more difficult to keep it. Beyond Simon catching Hong-Wei’s attention, he starts to fall for the entire town of Copper Point. From the owners of his favorite restaurant to his co-workers to the local orchestra. It’s far more than he ever planned for and he’s not quite sure how to manage all the feelings of peace and happiness he has here. When a medical emergency forces Hong-Wei to reveal more of himself than he planned, the major power struggle begins around the dating policy and the future of St. Ann’s. Heidi does a tremendous job about making us care not only for Hong-Wei and Simon, but for everything that’s at stake for the town. There’s so much to love in this book between Simon and Hong-Wei, their friends, the citizens of Copper Point. The book also has one of the best grand gestures ever. It gave me all the feels. Kudos to Iggy Toma for a brilliant performance, infusing everyone with strong emotions and rich personalities. The tender moments between Simon and Hong-Wei are perfection. I’m looking forward to Owen and Nick’s books in the series. Owen’s is already out but I’m hanging tight for the audio and Nick’s book releases in August.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Tim: So, Jeff, you asked me about what kind of job I'd like. Well, what about a job you definitely you wouldn't want to do. There are lots of jobs out there and some of them aren't so good, so what would you not want to do?Jeff: That's a difficult question. I don't like working period, really.Tim: Yeah, but who does?Jeff: Yes, that's right, but I think a type of job I wouldn't like to do would be an office job, a straight desk job, where it is just task work, where you get paper - maybe sort of like an accountant - where you are doing nothing but sitting at your desk sort of by yourself all day, crunching numbers or putting things into the computer. I think it's very anti-social, a little bit boring, not so healthy, and even if the pay was good, I still wouldn't want to do it because you're compromising your life, which is short, to something that's not so fun so maybe a desk job, something at a desk, I wouldn't like to do. How about you? What job would you not like to do?Tim: Well, to be honest with you I don't think I would make a very good police officer. I really wouldn't want to be a police officer. I know it's exciting and it's always different but I kind of feel like I would be judging people and I'm not anti-police. I think they're needed but sometimes I don't agree with everything that a government believes in and I think it would be difficult for me to be busting people for something that I don't agree with. And I think that you know, it's a hard job. It's a hard job and you've got to deal with people that you know need help in different ways, and a police officer is just coming and putting them in jail.Jeff: Another thing, sort of related to police officer is I wouldn't want to be a nurse or a doctor.Tim: Oh, I'm surprised.Jeff: A great job and it would be rewarding to save people's lives or to make them better if they're sick, to make them healthy again, but I hate blood.Tim: Oh, really.Jeff: I can't stand blood so if there is... I can't even stand somebody with a bloody nose so I think in a situation where there is any blood around I wouldn't be your man.Tim: Well, I think another job I wouldn't want to be is a garbage man, to be honest with you.Jeff: Oh, a garbage man would be great.Tim: I understand. Like, I like the idea of driving from house to house. I think I would be a great post office worker, and I don't mind the manual labor of just lifting stuff up and stuff.Jeff: A bit smelly though.Tim: Yeah. That's the biggest thing. I think the smell would really get to me, like kind of like you were with blood. I think that eventually, that smell would sometimes make me sick, and you'd be surprised what people throw away. I mean, needles, all kinds of things, dirty diapers. Things like that. I don't think I could deal with that very well.Jeff: OK, so you'll never be a garbage man and I'll never be a nurse.Tim: Ah, fair enough I suppose.

It's the final week of Pride Month 2019. The guys wish everyone celebrating World Pride in NYC a wonderful time. Jeff talks about being homesick for New York and missing playing hockey. Pose's early season 3 renewal is praised. Will talks about the special Masterwork Experiment happening on The Story Grid Podcast where they are breaking down and analyzing the story structure of Annie Proulx's Brokeback Mountain. Jeff and author/blogger Lee Wind have an extended interview in which Lee discusses his debut YA novel, Queer as a Five Dollar Bill and how he's become engaged in discovering queer history. They also talk about the YA book blog I'm Here. I'm Queer. What the Hell Do I Read? that Lee began over a decade ago. Lee also recommends a couple of his favorite YA books and the queer history project he's trying to jump start on Instagram. Complete shownotes for episode 194 along with a transcript of the interview are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Interview Transcript - Lee Wind This transcript was made possible by our community on Patreon. You can get information on how to join them at patreon.com/biggayfictionpodcast. Jeff: Lee, welcome to the podcast. It is so great to have you here. Lee: Thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here, Jeff. Jeff: Now, I recently read your debut novel, "Queer as a Five-Dollar Bill". In fact, I reviewed it back in Episode 189. And absolutely love it. Now, tell people in your own words what this YA novel is about. Lee: So it's all about the fact that I don't have a time machine. When I went...in 2011, I went to a game in summer camp kind of weekend. And there was a guy talking about the letters that Abraham Lincoln wrote Joshua Fry Speed that convinced him that Abraham was in love with Joshua. And I just thought he was full of it. Like how could that have been possibly been true? It's the first time I heard about it. And I went to the library, and I got the letters and I read them and because the emotions Lincoln speaks about are the same emotions I experienced when I was closeted in dating girls and sort of judging it the right thing to do, but not feeling it, I had this moment of sort of goosebumps, and I was like, "Oh my gosh, I think maybe Lincoln was in love with speed." And I thought, "Oh, if I had a time machine and go back and tell my 15-year-old self that the guy on Mount Rushmore, the guy on the $5 bill, the guy on the penny, was maybe in love with another guy, I think it would have changed my whole life. I don't think it would have taken me until I was 25 years old to fully come out. I think it would have been a game changer. But I don't have a time machine. So "Queer as a Five-Dollar Bill" is my paying it forward. I'm a writer, I wanted to write the story about a 15-year-old who's closeted and bullied and dating a girl because he kind of judges it's the right thing to do, but he doesn't feel it. And then he's assigned a book report on Lincoln and he gets the same book that I got from the library, he reads the actual letter, where Lincoln is asking his best friend, after the best friend has gotten married to a woman, "Are you now, in feeling as well as judgment, glad you're married as you are? From anybody but me, this would be an impudent question not to be tolerated, but I know you'll tolerate it for me." And he ends the letter saying, "Please tell me quickly, I feel very impatient to know." And we don't have Joshua's answer, because Mary Todd burned all the letters on that side of the correspondence. But we do know it was only four weeks later that Abraham had married Mary. So to me, it felt like wow, that, like what would happen if a kid today found that out and decided that he wants the world to know? Because everyone loves Abraham Lincoln in our country. And he thought, "Well, okay, so if he tells - the main character, Wyatt - if he tells the whole world that Abraham Lincoln was in love with another guy, he thinks it's going to change how everyone feels about gay people, cue the songbirds and the rainbow and happy ending." I do think if in our culture today if someone was to go really viral with the information that Abraham Lincoln was, wrote these letters and was in love with Joshua Fry Speed, I think there would be a huge conservative backlash and media firestorm. And that's really that what I wanted to show in the novel, how this Wyatt, how Wyatt, this main character makes his way through this incredible maelstrom of fury that he's ignited by just sharing what actually is part of American history. And then to kind of ratchet the stakes up even further, I wanted to make it, like, how was it important for a teenager today? Why is Abraham Lincoln important? So I kind of situated him in Lincolnville, Oregon, a town I kind of made up. His parents own the Lincoln Slept Here Bed & Breakfast. And when the economy of the town kind of starts to tank and they're threatened with losing their business, they bring in a civil rights attorney to help and she has an openly gay son and sparks fly between the two teens. But the main character Wyatt can't do anything about it. Because gay kids saying Lincoln is gay is really different than a straight kid saying Lincoln is gay. And he's faced with his choice, does he follow his heart and see if something might be happening with this guy, Martin? But the cost of that is letting this secret fade back into history, and nothing will ever change in our world. Or does he sort of sacrifice himself and his own happiness, and persist with the story that Lincoln was indeed in love with another guy and see if he can change the world a little bit, even though it won't change for him? So that's the story of "Queer as a Five-Dollar Bill". Jeff: And I feel like even before I read this book that I had heard, you know, some of the rumblings that Lincoln may have had a relationship, may have been gay. So I think it kind of dances around the edge of what some people know, because I can't even begin to tell you where I heard it or anything else, just that it had been kind of back there somewhere in the memory of I don't know, something. Does that even make sense? Lee: Well, it's been a big thing on "Will & Grace", the revived series. They've been doing a whole run on jokes about Jack doing a one-man play called Gaybraham Lincoln, which is sort of all about Lincoln being gay, which I think has been good on the one hand, because it's letting more people know that this is something that people are talking about, but it's also doing so as if it's a farce, as if it's not true at all, and completely made up in a complete flight of fancy on the part of this bigger than life character. When in fact, if you read the letters, it is remarkable how to me it feels so clear that Lincoln was in love with Joshua. Jeff: What was your process for researching the history? Because there's more in here than just the letters themselves. There's a lot of Lincoln history, there's comparisons drawn between Lincoln and Martin Luther King Jr. In my review, you know, I kind of likened it a little bit, you know, you go see "Hamilton" and you get this big infusion of history, while you're wildly entertained. What was kind of your process around gathering all the pieces you needed? Lee: Well, first of all, thank you for comparing it to "Hamilton." That is like the best compliment ever. I need to embroider that on a pillow or something. I did a lot of research. I started out with the letters and then I realized that I just didn't know enough. I looked around and I live in Southern California. And it turns out in Redlands, California, there is an Abraham Lincoln Memorial shrine and museum. And it's like a three-room edifice that has display cases and a gift shop. And so many of the things that ended up being part of the bed and breakfast that Wyatt's parents own were kind of taken from that real-world experience of going to this place and seeing that they actually had, you know, civil war chess sets. And they had, you know, little teddy bears that were gray or blue. And they had, you know, Confederate Flag and a Union Flag. And that was hugely helpful. And then just starting to dig in deeper to some of the things I discovered there, there's a whole sort of subplot about how Wyatt feels that there's no one he can actually talk to. And so he's developed this strange internal dialogue with this image of a soldier in the background of one of their display cases. And I actually have a photo of it from when I went to this Lincoln shrine. And it was there, it was behind all these ammunitions. And I don't know that my gaydar works 150 some years later, but definitely, there's somebody in that, they're one of the soldiers in that photo does look like he could be gay. And I thought, "Wow, what if this was the only way that Wyatt felt that he could have somebody that recognized who he was, and how sad that was that he didn't really have a friend?" And that was why I was excited to create the character of Martin so he had somebody. Jeff: Were you a history buff all along? Lee: No, I hated history. And I'm sure that they're all these teachers that are like hitting their foreheads in shame right now. But like, honestly, I never had a history teacher that kind of got me excited about the stories of history, because I really feel like the way we teach history today, and my daughter's in 10th grade right now and her history textbook could have been my history textbook from the 1980s, where basically, it's the stories of rich, white, straight, cis-gendered, able-bodied men from Europe. And, you know, history is more than that. There are the stories of disabled people and people of color and women and men who loved men and women who loved women and people who looked outside gender boundaries in history. And I kind of feel like, we have to crack that facade of that false facade of history and let people know that that there's all this amazing light and you can see yourself in history. And, you know, Lincoln and Joshua are just sort of like the tip of the iceberg. There's, you know, Eleanor Roosevelt and Lorena Hickok, there's Mahatma Gandhi and his love for this German Jewish architect, Hermann Kallenbach. There's the pharaoh Hatshepsut in Egypt, there is Safa, there's so many stories that impact us today. But we don't really know them because they don't get taught, or when they are taught, they're not taught in a sort of, queer inclusive or respectful manner. So I kind of feel like now I love history. And in fact, I wrote this novel, but as I was writing the novel, there was so much history, there was so many things that came up, so many more pieces of evidence, so many more pieces of the pie, things that made me surprised, like, I didn't really know that Lincoln was sort of a racist, even though he's credited with freeing all the slaves, he had this whole plan that he signed off on with Congress at that time to sort of, you know, explore shipping all black people back to Africa. And I didn't know that. And the deeper I dug, when I found a piece of information that kind of contradicted what I knew, I really wanted to find a way to include it in the story. Because I feel like that's what we should be doing when we find things that show that history is complex, and that people are not black and white, that it just makes it all so much more real and so much more relatable. And if we can see reflections of ourselves in the past, like if we know that there were men who love men in the past, then we can believe that we have a place at the table today. And if we know that we have a place at the table today, we can envision a future that is sort of limitless. And I want that for everyone that doesn't feel like their history is included. I want it for all the women and all the people of color and the disabled people and the women who love women and the people who lived outside gender boundaries, too. Because that's, you know, we call it LGBTQAI+ or QUILTBAG or whatever. But really, the job is about being an ally to other people. And me as a gay man, I have to think, "Well, how can I be an ally to everybody else?" And hopefully, they're thinking the same thing. And that's how we start to create societal change. Jeff:: That is wildly profound. And especially, given that this episode of the podcast is dropping in the last week of June, as you know, the queer community celebrates Stonewall 50. Lee: Oh, yeah. Well, you know, I love that we're celebrating Stonewall, I love that the gender non-conforming people that were there, the transgender people, the drag queens are getting some respect now that they were part of that and they were in fact, the leaders of standing up to the police finally. But for many, many years, Stonewall had a banner, the Stonewall Inn had a banner outside that read "Where Pride Began". And I think that's really misleading. And we talk in the queer community in America as if that's where pride began, right. Like, pride, "Hey, we're celebrating 50 years of Stonewall, Hooray." But wait a minute, Karl-Maria Kertbeny came up with the word homosexual 100 years before Stonewall. Right? Like Lincoln and Speed were writing these letters to each other 20 years before that. You know, you can go back thousands and thousands of years and there's this beautiful story from China before China was unified, where the State of Wey that the guy that ruled it, his name was Duke Ling and he had a guy he loved his name is Mizi Xia. And they were walking through the orchard one day and Mizi Xia picks a peach off a tree and starts to eat it. And halfway through, he stops because it's so delicious. He wants to share it and he gives the half eaten peach to the Duke and the Duke makes a really big deal out of it. Like, "I can't believe your love for me is so profound that you would sacrifice your own happiness to give me the peach." And something about that moment captured the imagination of people in that pre-unified China. And for over 1,000 years, the way in Chinese that they said gay love was love of the half-eaten peach. Like we have this amazing, amazing history. And we just need to kind of breakthrough that facade and let all this amazing rainbow light shine through. So that's kind of what I feel my mission is to kind of let people know that we have all this amazing history, and we can start to dive into it. Jeff: Is this all history? Because you mentioned earlier that you're not, you weren't a history buff and you hated history. Have you gathered up all of this new knowledge since you were researching to write "Queer as Five-Dollar Bill"? Lee: Yeah. So while I was writing "Queer as a Five-Dollar Bill," like I mentioned, there was just so much stuff that came up, so much evidence that I was like, "I can't really cram all this into a novel, because at the end of the day, the novel is really about a kid today." And I didn't want it to feel like a historical novel. I wanted it to be this page-turner. So I realized that maybe it was two books, maybe there was the novel. But what if there's a nonfiction book as well that presents the primary source materials, like a popup video thing on MTV or VH1, whatever it was, helps interpret, or at least how I interpret the thing? So like, there's all this talk about Shakespeare's Sonnets, and how, while they're very rarely taught, over 100 of the sonnets, Shakespeare wrote to another guy. And these are love sonnets that include really, really famous lines that we all recognize, like, "Shall I compare thee to a summer's day. Thou art more worthy, yet more temperate." That's a line that Shakespeare wrote to another guy. For hundreds of years, they had changed the pronouns of that in one of the folios. So it ended up being that for hundreds of years, people thought that Shakespeare wrote all those poems to a woman, to the Dark Lady. But when "The Riverside Shakespeare" came out, the editor of that section, he talked about how, "Well, we've restored the sonnets to their original, you know, pronouns, but you shouldn't mistake that, you know, the affection men felt for each other in the 1500s was nothing like the homosexual attraction today." He wrote this in 1970s. And I'm like, "Really? Really?" Because, you know, "A man in hue all hues in his controlling, Which steals men's eyes and women's souls amazeth," it sounds pretty romantic to me. So what I realized what I wanted to do is to create a book that wouldn't be just a book about Lincoln and Speed, but it would be a book about the broader thing, about men who love men and women who love women and people who lived outside gender boundaries. So there's 15 chapters. One is about Lincoln and Speed, one is about Shakespeare. And then there's, like, you know, a bunch of other amazing people in history, and it really presents the primary source material. And I'm really excited because today - that we're recording this - is the day that I'm signing the contract for that book with a publisher. Jeff: Oh, that is exciting. Congratulations. Lee: Thank you. It's been a long journey, long and crazy journey. Because the book originally was set up at one of the big five publishers, and I worked on it for a year and a half with them. It was approved, we were talking cover design. And then two weeks after our current president was elected, they canceled the book. I think they were concerned that it was going to be too controversial. They just didn't have the courage to proceed. And that was really devastating. And it took a long time to find a new home for it. There were a lot of shenanigans, a lot of plot twists. The agent I had had at the time turned out to be a criminal who, well, she was telling all her clients she was submitting things and that they were having all these pending book deals. She was lying. And the book was never submitted anywhere. Even after it was returned, the rights were returned to me. And the novel, "Queer as a Five-Dollar Bill" ended up getting crowdfunded because I thought that I was being, well, stonewalled by the children's book industry and they didn't want word to get out about Lincoln and Speed so much so that no one would even respond to the submissions. So I crowdfunded it. I have a blog, I think we're talking about that a little bit later. But I have a bunch of people that know who I am and what I was trying to do, and they all supported me to not just publish the book professionally, but also, what I wanted to do is raise enough money to donate at least 400 copies of the novel to LGBTQ and allied teens, and the Kickstarter funded in six days, it was amazing. And then it went on for another 24 days. So we ultimately raised enough money to give away 910 copies. So that's been really, really gratifying. Jeff: That's incredible. I mean, it's really one of the great things about publishing today is that there's really no more gatekeepers out there. Anybody can publish, get it on Amazon, get an audiobook done, etc, and get their messages out there. Lee: There still is the thing, though, that being with a traditional publisher, you generally can reach more, especially when we're talking about like middle grade, you know, or books, where you go into libraries, which I think that this nonfiction book really is a, you know, hopefully, it'll sell like hotcakes. But also, I do think that to get it adopted more broadly into schools and into libraries, I think that coming from an established publisher is really useful and really helpful. So I'm excited about that. I do think that yeah, that there are many, many fewer boundaries than there used to be - or barriers than there used to be. But at the same time, we have the additional challenge that while access to the marketplace has never been easier, the marketplace has never been bigger. So getting noticed in a marketplace, where there's over a million books that are published every year now in the U.S., is a challenge. And that's why it's so important to have safe places to find out about these things, like your podcast, and my blog. Jeff: Yes, absolutely. To spin back on "Five-Dollar Bill" a little bit and talk a little bit more about it. What were your inspirations for both Wyatt and Martin and the type of teenagers they would be? Lee: When I was growing up, or when I was coming out, I think it felt like you couldn't be gay if you lived anywhere except for one of the big cities like San Francisco or New York. And I really wanted to have a character that felt connected to nature. And that one of the thematic subplots would be, 'Could he be himself where he was? Could he be himself in small town America, in a rural community, was there a way through for him to be successfully himself and authentic?' I feel like I spent so much of my life being inauthentic, that I want to do everything I can to help teens be authentic now. So on the one hand, Wyatt was the study of a kid that was on a journey to be authentic and Martin was the flip side of that. Martin was the character that already was authentic, and was already reaping the benefits of that level of confidence. And you know, as soon as you, for me, when I came out, it was like this huge burden off of me. And suddenly, I realized the weight of it was on everyone else, right? Like, if they had a problem with it, that was their problem. But it wasn't me hiding or holding back, or pretending or acting, which I did for so long. My husband and I have a joke, where when you go to a Starbucks or something, they're always like, "What's your name?" And every time my husband changes his name. Like he just makes up different names every single time. And they ask me and I'm always Lee because it took me 25 years to even start to like myself and to accept myself. And I finally got here. And I'm like, "Yeah, I'm not anybody else. I am me. I am Lee." It's funny. I take a spin class and as a motivational thing the spin instructor does, "Who do you want to be today?" I'm always like, "Me, I want to be me." I spent so long being other people. And then also, it was really cool when I was creating Martin's character, to think about him being African American. And that being an opportunity for me to talk about the complexity of Abraham Lincoln and him not being so perfect and explore those themes a little more. And it's funny because I hear from a lot of people how much they love Martin. And yeah, he's pretty lovable. Jeff: Yeah, I really liked them both in their individual ways. For sure Wyatt...I grew up, I spent like middle school, high school, college in Alabama. So I could totally relate to where Wyatt was in his journey like he knows, but there's no way he's telling anybody. And I didn't have a Martin for a best friend. So I also loved Martin, because he was the ideal friend to have for Wyatt in the moment to show him what could be. Lee: Yeah, exactly. Jeff: What do you hope the audience takes away from this kind of history/fiction mashup? Lee: So I think a lot about words, you know, being a writer, and I think that the word homosexual isn't helping us. I think that if we, because we're so reactive and weird in our culture, in America about sex, and we are obsessed with it, and we don't want to acknowledge it. And especially we don't want to talk about it to teens. So when we talk about homosexual rights and homosexual history, all straight people are hearing, you know, to paint with a broad brush, is they're thinking about sex and that we have sex differently than they do and how do we have sex. And I just don't think that's particularly helpful. And I think that if we talked about love as sort of the binding element that makes me and my husband and our teenage daughter a family, or the love between you and your husband, if we talked about HomoLOVEual rights and HomoLOVEual history, I think we'd have a very different cultural conversation. So what the tagline of my book is, "What if you knew a secret from history that could change the world?" And I love this because it gets a little meta. But it's the challenge that Wyatt faces, right? He finds out the secret about Abraham Lincoln writing these letters and maybe being in love with Joshua Fry Speed. And he decides that he's going to tell the world because it could change the world. And then it's the same challenge that I faced because I knew the secret from history and I thought this drumming sense of responsibility, like I had to share it, I had to get it out in the world. And because I wasn't getting anywhere with traditional publishing, I thought, "Okay, well, I'm going to crowdfund it, I'm going to get it out in the world, myself." And then what I am really excited about is that it's also the challenge that the reader faces. Because when you've read the book, or you even heard me talk about the book, you know that there is something more to the story of Abraham Lincoln that has been taught to you. And it's that first crack in that facade of history. And it makes you think, "Well, wait a minute, when you see the picture of Mount Rushmore, or when you pick your kid up at the Lincoln middle school, or you're driving on Lincoln Boulevard, you know, does it occur to you that, you know, our culture has not shared that part of who Lincoln is? And does it make you feel a little more pride about the fact that you know what, we do have history, queer people, and we need to lean into it? And we have the opportunity to because there are hundreds of years of historians that are going to argue with us and that are going to say, "Yeah, yeah, it's not true. It was very typical for men to share beds on the frontier." Not that Springfield, Illinois was the frontier. But for four years, you know, Abraham and Joshua shared a bed long after Abraham could afford his own bed. "Well, it was cold." Okay, yeah. But they shared a bed for four years. It's not proof. But it's interesting. And I think that as all those things add up, we can all make our own determination of what we think, you know. Is it important for me that I convince the world that Abraham Lincoln was in love with Joshua Fry Speed? No. I think a lot about Anne Lamott, she's a writer, and she writes about writing. She has a beautiful book called "Bird by Bird". And in that book, she talks about lighthouses, and how they don't run all over an island looking for boats to save, they just sort of stand there and they shine. And I think a lot about that. Like, I need to be a lighthouse. Like I found out this amazing, cool stuff about history, and how it relates to today, and how empowering it is. And I just want to shine. And if people are interested, they can come closer to the light. And if they're not interested, no worries, you know, watch out, there's some rocks over there. Jeff: Any chance of a sequel? Because I know I would love to see more of Wyatt and Martin at some point Lee: I haven't really come up with a good angle on a sequel, I had this funny idea for...one of the other pieces of history that really struck me was Mahatma Gandhi and the story of his love for Hermann Kallenbach. And we talk a lot about Gandhi having this sort of breakthrough where he talked about it doesn't matter whether you pray facing left and I pray facing right - I may have that reversed. We're all praying to the same God. Like he had this huge breakthrough, not just in terms of, you know, a peaceful protest, Satyagraha. He changed our world in such profound ways. And at the same time, he was in love with this German Jewish architect named Hermann Kallenbach. And if he was in love with a Jewish guy, like that's actually really interesting and really germane. Like maybe that's why he had that inspiration, that insight about it doesn't matter who you're praying to, because it's, we're all sort of bonded by this sense of spiritual connection. Like, that's really exciting. And I feel like there's so many stories like that, like Eleanor Roosevelt and Lorena Hickok. Eleanor Roosevelt was the woman that after, you know, her husband died, she went to the UN and became this advocate for the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And would she had done that if she didn't have this experience of being in love with another woman, and feeling that sort of outsider status, while at the same time being this empowered woman in our world? History starts to open up like a flower. So I don't have an exact idea for a sequel for Wyatt and Martin, but I will put it in the hopper as ideas. Reason I brought up Hermann Kallenbach and Mahatma Gandhi was that I thought, that would be an interesting thing to talk about a kid finding out about that, and how that would have changed their life. And then about, "Wait, that's the exact same story over again, I don't need to do that. I already wrote that." So for now, I'm going to focus on the nonfiction piece and some other fiction writing that I want to get to that, actually, I'm very inspired by your book too, by the "Codename: Winger" series, because I love the idea of mashing up a gay teen with a sort of spy thriller. Jeff: And I can't wait to read what you might do with that. So please, bring that to the marketplace. Lee: Thank you. I keep thinking, "Is there a way I can get gay history in here somehow?" I haven't figured that either yet. But, you know, I'll work on it. Jeff: You'd mentioned earlier that you've got your blog, which I was so excited to find right around the same time as finding the book. You've been a YA blogger for more than a decade now. I believe you said it'll be 12 years in September. And the blog is called "I'm Here. I'm Queer. What the Hell do I Read?" What led you to starting that? Lee: Thanks. Yeah, there was no safe space to find out what were the books with queer characters for kids and teens. And I remember, there was a review on Amazon for a really sweet picture book called "The Family Book" by Todd Parr. And it's sort of a cartoon-y book. And there's like one page, it says, "Some families look alike." And it's a bunch of dogs that they all have similar features. "Some families look different." And it's a tree with all these different kind of animals in it. "Some families adopt children." And it's a bunch of ducks. And on the back of one duck is a penguin. And then you turn the page and it's, "Some families have two moms or two dads." And it's a picture of two women and two men. And then it continues, and there was a review, pretty high up that said, "If you tear out the page with the two moms and dads, then this is a lovely book on diversity." And I thought, "Wow, way to miss the entire point of what diversity is." And I got so upset and so hurt, you know, because I'm a gay dad. And I thought this was an amazing book for my daughter, but also for all of my daughter's classmates to see and recognize, "Yeah, yeah, you know, some families do have two moms and two dads." And to Amazon, that wasn't hate speech, it didn't violate their terms of service, it was just somebody's opinion. Albeit kind of, you know, nasty, or at least I interpreted as nasty. And it got me thinking about how there really needed to be a safe place online, where a kid could go and find out what are the books that were out there. And when I started, there were maybe 30 books total that were inclusive of LGBTQ characters and themes for kids and teens. And what's happened over the years is that by keeping this curated safe space, where I'm not vetting all the books, but I'm making sure that no nastiness is happening on the site. We have over 500 books now in many, many categories. And it's been really exciting to see that sort of explosion of content. And yet, it's that sort of similar problem again. Like now, suddenly, there's so much content, how do you make your way through it? How do you find the things that you want? So the idea behind it was to post about the books, what's queer about the books, and then let readers add their own reviews. There hasn't been a lot of review, there's just too many places for people to leave reviews these days. So I don't see a lot of that. But I also didn't want to make it, you know, "Lee's favorite book site" because I think that that has a limited value, I thought that there was more value in it being a site that felt really comprehensive. And that's what I aim for. And then it just became a place where I could talk about the stuff that I really care about, that I want queer and allied teens to know about. And over the years, what I've discovered is that the readership is split into thirds. There's about a third, queer teens and queer and allied teens on it. There about a third of librarians and teachers and people that work with LGBTQ teens. And then there's a whole bunch of adults that are sort of reading the books for themselves and sort of healing their inner teen. And I think that there is a healing that happens. Every time I read a queer book that has a happy or even a hopeful ending, there's a healing that happens. And I think maybe that's part of why romance as a genre is so popular. I know Will was saying in a previous episode that people get on his case for like ruining the ending, but it's all romance, you know it's going to be a good ending. And I think maybe that's why people turn to it. So I know how empowering it is for me when I read something where I see a reflection of myself, and it's a positive thing. Because when I was growing up, there was nothing to read, nothing positive. The only queer characters were like evil pedophile villains, it wasn't particularly helpful. Jeff: Yeah, that's, unfortunately, the case in the history that you and I have from that era when we were growing up. In the decade-plus that you've been running the site, other than just more YA, how have you seen it all evolve? Lee: There's more, and there's better and there's deeper, and there's less preachy and there's room for it all. It's funny, there was a kind of push a few years back for...well, maybe we're beyond the coming out story. And I kind of got my dander up a little bit on that. And I felt like, "Well, we're never going to be beyond the first love story when it's, you know, a straight romance. So, Andrew Solomon has this great book that he wrote called "Far From the Tree" and it's a nonfiction piece. And he talks about how, you know, when your identity is...where you're the apple that does fall far from the tree, or falls from the tree and rolls across the, you know, down the hill and across the orchard, when you're queer, most likely your parents were not. And so you have this moment where you have to find your sense of community outside of the family that you grew up in. A lot of other identities, you share that. Like, usually, like me, I was raised Jewish and so I would, you know, my parents were Jewish. So I sort of shared that identity. For all of our identities, we sort of are either sort of close to the tree or far from the tree. And when you're far from the tree, there's more work involved. So coming out, I think is going to continue to be this universal thing. Because just like, you know, my daughter has two dads, but she's straight. So in a funny way, she's going to have to, you know, she had a bit of a coming out where she had to tell us, sort of, you know, abashed, hoping that we'd be okay with it, that she was straight. And we had a good laugh about it. Because it's not that big a deal for us. We just want her to be her authentic self and to be happy. So we do want to have coming out books, and we also want to have books where being gay, like your character Winger, Theo, where it's the least interesting thing about him. I loved when you said that in your interview. Because yeah, we want those stories, too. It's like in acting, right? In improv, the rule is yes/and. So we want these books, and we want those books. We want the fantasy, we want the romance, we want the science fiction, we want all of it because truly, if you look at the numbers of books that are published - traditionally there about 5,000 books published a year for kids and teens. And then, if you look at the world of self-publishing, let's say that 5,000 are doing it really beautifully. And the books are indistinguishable with the quality of that from traditional publishing. That's 10,000 books a year, a year. And you have all those years going back too. So what we want is the opportunity to sort of have all of those books and right now we still only have like 500. So we have a long way to go. We need lots more books, we need lots more voices, we need people writing their own voices, stories, we need more diversity included in everybody's stories because truly, you're not going to have a classroom today that doesn't include someone that's LGBTQ, we need it all. Jeff: That's very true. Given that you had the blog, did you always see yourself eventually writing the YA novel that you did? Or did that just kind of manifest itself because you have the story to tell? Lee: I've always been a writer. I've written...I remember one summer when I was like between 9th and 10th Grade in high school, I was like, "I'm going to write a novel." I sometimes think of those poor characters still trapped in the broken space station that was orbiting the Earth. And I'm like, "Oh man, I have to do something with that someday." I don't think I will. I've always written. I think that for the last 14 years, I've really focused on writing for kids and teens. I also write picture books and middle grade. And when I found out this thing about Lincoln and Speed, it really inspired me to focus on writing that as a novel. I think that the blog has been a way to have my voice heard in a more direct way, and not wait for somebody to tap me on the shoulder and say, "Okay Lee, we're ready for what you have to share." So that's been really empowering. I remember, when I started the blog, there were very few people reading it, and I would get all excited, I'd be like, and I'd tell my husband, "Hey, 15, people went to my blog today." And I was so, so excited. And now, all these years later, we passed 2.6 million page loads. I get between, you know, 15,000 to 25,000 page views a month. It's remarkable, and humbling, and also a really cool responsibility to continue to maintain this safe place. And at the same time, I'm trying to keep writing and work on the new stuff, which has been really a good thing, because balancing the day job and the blogging, there's a lot but I have stories I want to tell. And I'm going to keep trying to tell them. Jeff: Good. Yeah, keep putting it out there. Because we always need more, to be sure. For people who haven't seen the site yet, and we're certainly going to link to it in the show notes. It has an amazing hero image across the top of the superhero. Where did that come from? And where did the name come from? For folks who might question the name too, because I have a pretty good idea where the name came from. But let's hear it from you. Lee: Sure. So "I'm Here. I'm Queer. What the Hell do I read?" is a play on words of something we chanted in Act Up in the '80s and '90s. The chant was "We're here. We're queer. Get used to it." And I thought, well, my issue is a little more "What the hell do I read?" Because I felt so starved for any books that included somebody like me. I mean, you know, I grew up and I really and truly thought I was the only person in the world that felt the way I felt about other guys. And which was super ironic, because I have an older brother, who's five and a half years older, and he's gay too, but we never spoke about it. We are the children of immigrants and when my parents came from Israel, they sort of brought all their homophobia with them. And the American culture at the time was super homophobic, especially where we lived outside Philadelphia. It was not a safe place. And it's so amazing to think that you can grow up and feel like you're the only person and everything I read, I was obsessed with the series by Anne McCaffrey called the Dragonrider series. And there was this super between the lines, sort of thematic thing that you could maybe interpret that there was gay stuff happening in that world, but you had to really stretch for it. And looking back, I think, well, maybe that's why I was so obsessed with that book, with that series, because there was some faint, not even mirror reflection, but like the gleam of a tarnished piece of silverware. I was like, "Wait, wait, maybe that's me." So that's where "I'm Here. I'm Queer. What the Hell do I read?" came from. The image happened a few years later. I had been running the site for about two years, it had been doing really well. And I realized I wanted to have a customized image. And yet, it's a pretty wordy title. So I realized I needed an image that didn't have any additional words to it. So I contacted someone I knew, an artist I knew, Jim DeBartolo. And, I said, "Look, I need an image that says empowerment." And he came up with this sort of superhero moment of like ripping the denim shirt off. And there's this sort of T-shirt underneath with the sort of superhero logo, which is the website, which is leewind.org. And it was funny. We tried to play with the sort of partial face that you see, we tried to, you know, could we make it a person of color? Could we do some things with you, know, the physique? But ultimately, it was sort of an avatar of me, and it took me years to admit it that's sort of what of course it is, it's an avatar of me, but I don't have that good a jawline. But at least in my mind, I think that it's been this sort of symbol of empowerment. And that's really what I hope that people get from visiting the site, from reading anything I write. I want them to feel empowered. Jeff: I like that. That's a great story behind that. Lee: Thanks. Jeff: So relying on your...I'm going to call it a YA expertise because of the site that you run. What are three or four titles of current YA that you would recommend our audience to take a stab at? Lee: Sure. So I have to start with "Carry On" by Rainbow Rowell. I know it's not super recent. But this is the gay Harry Potter book that I wanted so badly. And I was so frustrated that JK Rowling didn't include Dumbledore as being gay in the canon. It sort of was outside the books that that revelation happened and you can go back and sort of, you know, read subtexts and stuff. But I really was hoping that there would be some sort of, you know, on the page, queer love or something, and it didn't happen, there was really nothing. And, you know, Rainbow Rowell, she wrote two books, one about the girl that writes the fan fiction, which is called "Fangirl", which is really good. And then there was this book, which was the fan fiction, that ended up being a huge success on its own, called "Carry On". And I don't want to say too much, but it is absolutely brilliant. And if you are queer, or love queer stories, and you had any connection to Harry Potter, and that sort of world of magic, you've got to go read this. It's just wonderful. Jeff: Excellent. Her books have been on my TBR forever. And I actually need to take the leap and read them. Lee: Read this one first. It's just you will be so happy you did. Jeff: So you mentioned the nonfiction that you've just signed the contract on and other stuff noodling around in your head... anything else you want to shout out that's coming up soon for you? Lee: So there are a bunch of things percolating. But nothing has come to full boil yet. So I will let you all know when it does. Jeff: That is fair. I can't wait to hear what they are. Because I think that, yeah, having read the one book from you, I'm looking forward to reading so much more. So where can people keep up with you? There's leewind.org as we talked about, which is the "I'm Here. I'm Queer. What the Hell do I read?" site. Anyplace else people should be looking for updates? Lee: Yeah. I mean, I'm playing around with Instagram. I'm trying to do this thing. I had the idea that we could do a #queerhistoryiseverywhere. And I wanted people to upload photos of Abraham Lincoln or the word Lincoln wherever they saw it and just start posting it on Instagram. It hasn't exactly caught on yet. But I still like that idea. Jeff: Maybe our podcast listeners will play along with that. Lee: Oh, yeah, that would be really fun. And also, I mean, as, you know, more queer history happens. I was speaking at the Bay Area Book Festival recently and someone came up after my panel and they said, "Did you know that Bābur from the Bāburnāma when he was a teen he was in love with another boy?" I was like, "Really?" Totally, I have sitting on my desk right next to me right now the "Bāburnāma" and indeed, when he was 18, he was in love with this other boy. And it's so exciting to find out this stuff. So I feel like because it's been hidden, the more we can crowdsource this information and share it and then all amplify each other. I think it's very, very exciting. Jeff: Very cool. So we will link to all that stuff, the books we talked about - everything else - in our show notes. And Lee, I'm so glad we got the opportunity to talk, spread the word a little bit more about this book and the website and thank you for all you're doing to get more out there about YA literature too. Lee: Thank you, Jeff. I really want to say thank you to you and to Will. I'm really a fan of the podcast and getting to be on it as a real thrill. So thanks.

The guys talk about having more books than shelf space and also their upcoming 24th anniversary. Will reviews An Easter Promise by A E Ryecart. Jeff reviews Play It Again by Aidan Wayne. Jeff interviews Hank Edwards and Deanna Wadsworth about their collaboration, Murder Most Lovely, the first in the Lacetown Murder Mysteries series. They talk about how they came up with the book, their process for co-writing and what’s still to come in the series. We also find out what’s coming up for each of them in 2019. Complete shownotes for episode 186 along with a transcript of the interview are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Here’s the text of this week’s book reviews: An Easter Promise by AE Ryecart. Reviewed by Will. This is the continuing story of Rory and Jack, who we first met in the holiday story, A Kiss Before Christmas. In that story, Jack finds the homeless Rory huddled on his doorstep and offers him a place to stay. As they learn more about one another, Jack asks Rory to pose as his fake boyfriend when he goes home for the holidays. An unexpectedly severe winter storm prevents them from that trip, but in the few days they’ve been together they’ve fallen in love. I read A Kiss Before Christmas last year, and I still highly recommend it. In An Easter Promise, it’s now Spring and our two heroes are finally making the trip to visit Jack’s family in his ancestral manor house in the countryside. This is a particularly nerve-wracking experience for Rory, whose childhood couldn’t have been more different than Jack’s well-heeled upbringing. Things go relatively well as Jack shows Rory around the expansive estate, but they then get frosty when Jack’s mom makes it clear that she believes that Rory is after her son’s money. Gold-digging accusations aside, as a favor to her, Rory steps in as a last-minute contestant in the Best Bake competition at the village festival. Though his brownies were obviously the best, he doesn’t win. Afterward, Jack announces that he and his culinarily gifted boyfriend are going into business together and are opening a bakery. This once again raises the suspicion that Rory is only after Jack for his money, causing a major rift in family relations. Jack tells his mom where she can stick her suspicions, and is ready to return to London, but when Rory takes the family dog for a walk, he gets lost on the moors in a sudden storm. If reading fiction set in the U.K. has taught me anything, it’s that going for a walk on the moors is always a bad idea. The family organizes a search party and journeys into the dark night to find Rory. He is eventually found, and Jack makes amends with his parents. Flash forward a few months to the opening of the bakery and the beginning of a new chapter for our romantic heroes. I really like both of the stories featuring Rory and Jack and sincerely hope that this isn’t the last that we’ll see of them. The opening of the bakery certainly presents several new story possibilities. A.E. Ryecart, if you’re reading this, I’m a fan and a series set in this world would be greatly appreciated. Play It Again by Aidan Wayne. Reviewed by Jeff. I was completely delighted by new-to-me author Aidan Wayne’s Play It Again. Part of what drew me in initially is that part of it relates to what we do here on the podcast. Dovid is a YouTuber alongside his sister Rachel. They run a channel called Don’t Look Now. Among the things they do is review eateries in Seattle for how accessible they are because Dovid is blind. They also interact with their fans, go on trips, open mystery boxes–it’s the full YouTube gambit. Over in Ireland, Sam runs a Let’s Play channel where he plays a popular videogame. Rachel and Dovid become obsessed with Sam’s channel because of his easy-going, fun delivery. Dovid calls out Sam’s channel in an episode and sends Sam’s subscriber count through the roof and when Sam contacts Dovid to thank him they end up talking frequently. Dovid and Sam are single–but as I mentioned live on opposite sides of the globe. Neither of them, quite cutely, realizes how flirty they’re being as they message each other. Initially Dovid offers Sam advice on how to manage his new subscribers and ways to grow his channel but as they move beyond that and get to know each other the realization comes that perhaps there’s more there. This isn’t the first book I’ve read that relies heavily on text messages, instant messenger, email and so on. I loved how these wove into the story. There’s a good deal of, what I’ll call, regular storytelling too, coming from both points of view. Dovid and Sam have quite a lot internal dialogue about their growing predicament. Just getting time to talk on the phone is a challenge with the nine hour difference between them. It doesn’t stop them though from being ridiculously cute and challenging themselves to let this relationship go through its formative stages without being in the same physical location. Of course, the guys have to get together and that happens when Dovid and Rachel had the chance to do a European tour, which includes Ireland. As much as Dovid and Sam questioned themselves as they did the long distance thing, the jitters ratchet up as they meet. Aidan does a great job of showing the hesitancy–from Dovid wanting everything to be perfect to Sam wondering if he’s worthy of Dovid. Sam comes from a family where he was put down a lot and Dovid goes into protector mode when Sam talks about this, which is incredibly touching and sexy. For all the exploration they did via email, the time they spend together in Ireland really made me appreciate the romance that Aidan spun even more. They’d bonded so much before, they almost fall into old married couple mode with how they try to take care of each other. Dovid is particularly mindful of Sam’s asexuality and makes sure Sam isn’t doing anything he doesn’t want to do. It’s wonderful to see two such diverse characters finding their happy. Speaking if the HEA, I’d wondered how it would manifest in a book where the two characters spend probably eighty percent of the book on separate continents. I adored how Aidan brought Sam and Dovid together. I would love to see more in this universe to know how Dovid and Sam are getting on. Besides the wonderful romance, I loved the attention to detail that Aidan put into showing the work Dovid and Rachel do on their channel. From the talk of creating Patreon campaigns to managing social media and how to interact with the audience, I enjoyed it and I don’t think it’s too much for people who don’t do this kind of thing. Another excellent detail, Dovid and Rachel receive a package from a fan in Michigan–it contained Faygo Red Pop and Mackinac Island fudge, two childhood favorites that made me smile and gave me cravings! So, in case you haven’t figured it out, I totally recommend Play it Again by Aidan Wayne. I’m also looking forward to their upcoming book, Hitting the Mark, which comes out at the end of May. This interview transcript is sponsored by Dreamspinner PressDreamspinner Press is proud to publish this week’s guests Hank Edwards and Deanna Wadsworth and their new book Murder Most Lovely. Check it out, and all the new mystery and suspense titles from your favorite authors like Amy Lane, KC Wells, Tara Lain, and Rhys Ford, just to name a few, and find a new favorite author while you’re at it. Go to dreamspinnerpress.com for everything you want in gay romance. Jeff: Welcome to the podcast, Hank Edwards and Deanna Wadsworth. Deanna: Hello. Jeff: Thanks for being here. Hank: Thanks for hosting us. Jeff: You guys have written a book together… Deanna: We did. Jeff: …which is super cool. April 30, which is the day after this comes out, you’re releasing the first book in the “Lacetown Murder Mysteries” called “Murder Most Lovely.” Tell us about this new series. What is the scoop? Deanna: Who wants to go first? Hank: Deanna? You go first. Deanna: Okay, I’ll go first. So like a year ago I went out to dinner with my husband, had some cocktails and at like 11:00 at night after having like wonderful conversations in my brain with myself because I think I’m clever, I messaged Hank, and I said, “Dude, we need to write a book together.” And he’s like, “We should.” And then we did. Hank: I might have had some cocktails that night too. I can’t remember. Deanna: You may have. Hank: Might have. Deanna: And it was, “Yeah, we should,” kind of moment. And we didn’t really know where it was going. Hank: We had no idea. Deanna: What’s that? Hank: We had no idea, like nothing. That was just the random start of things. “We should do a book.” We didn’t have an idea or anything. Deanna: It was a completely inane, “Dude, we should write a book together,” kind of moment. And then seriously, the next day, we had some conversations like, “What should it be? Superhero?” And then we just kind of like spitted ideas back and forth. And Hank was like, “We would write the fuck out of a rom-com.” Am I allowed to say fuck? Jeff: Yes, you are. We’ll put a little explicit logo on the episode and you can cuss as much as you want. Deanna: So he was like, “We would write the fuck out of a rom-com.” And I’m like, “We would.” And then we’re like, “What should it be?” And we just spitballed ideas back and forth. Like, I mean, literally, like there was probably like 30 or 40, like, things we shot back and forth at each other. And then Hank picked on two of them. And he’s like, “I love the idea of a mortician and a hairdresser.” Then we ran with it. Hank: Yeah, and we just ran with it. And it just started writing. I mean, we didn’t plan, like, “You take one chapter.” What we did was each of us wrote up a character bio and sent it to each other. And so I wrote up… Deanna: It was so great. Hank: You what? Deanna: It was so great, like blind dates for our character. Hank: It was. It was really fun. So you had Michael, right, and I had Jazz. Deanna: Yeah, you made Jazz. So tell us about Jazz. Hank: So Jazz is very sassy and very snarky. And he’s a talented hairstylist and he’s uprooted his life after separating from his husband, who is a best-selling novelist and mystery novelist. And so he’s moved to this small town on the coast of Lake Michigan in Michigan. And some Michigan love there, Jeff. Yes. Jeff: I love that. Hank: Yes, always. And so he’s starting over and he’s just trying to kind of like rebuild and he works at a fun little salon but he’s kind of, he’s 49 but he tells people he’s 41 and… Deanna: He tell’s people he’s 35, remember? Hank: And he tries that too. Deanna: He totally lies about his age. He says he’s 35. Hank: We had, our editor actually called us up and she was like, “Is this right?” Because he shouldn’t have been around back then. Jazz lies about his age. Deanna: He’s almost 50 but he says he’s 35. Hank: Right. So that’s how that started. And then she brought up Michael. Deanna: Yeah. Hank created Jazz, the hairdresser, which is funny because I actually legitimately am a hairdresser in real life. But when we were talking, Hank had said, “I’ve always wanted to write a hairdresser.” I’m like, “You take the hairdresser. Run with it.” And then I took the mortician, which sounded really great and exciting. And after dozens of Google search, Google decided that I obviously want to be a coroner and mortician and they send me casket ads, but yeah, whatever. So I created a…it was fun because Hank created Jazz, this sassy, almost-50 hairdresser who’s super sarcastic, he’s got long honey blonde hair and super stylish and wears eyeliner and he’s really sassy and he has a big potty mouth. Hank: Oh, yeah. Deanna: Oh, he does. And then I didn’t know who Hank was creating when we came upon this conversation. It was very much, “Hey, you pick your guy. I’ll pick my guy. We’ll see what happens. And I made Michael Fleishman who is a 42-year-old, very uptight, very socially awkward Jewish guy who runs the local funeral home and he’s also the county coroner to our fake county…is it Carver County? Hank: Carver County, yeah. Deanna: Carver County on Lake Michigan, which is sort of like in somewhere between, I don’t know… Hank: Like Saugatuck and… Deanna: Saugatuck and… Hank: Yeah, Muskegon. Deanna: Muskegon, somewhere, a fake county in between there and he’s the county coroner. He’s very uptight and super horny and has this like hilarious like sexual imagination but he’s really reserved and he is obsessed with mystery novels. And he goes to a bookstore in Lacetown, which is our fictional town on Lake Michigan, during a literary festival to meet his favorite also author, Russell Withingham, which happens to be Jazz’s husband. They’re separated but they’re not divorced yet. Hank: And that’s the meet-cute. Jeff: Wow. Hank: I know, right? Deanna: Total rom-com, meet and greet during the rain under an umbrella, cute scene. Until Jazz gets his little…I mean, he really worries Michael thinks he’s a bitchy queen and he kind of is. He’s totally the queen. Hank: He’s really fun to write. Deanna: It’s so fun. Jeff: So when you got these characters who are obviously really opposite to each other, you could just hear it in the bios, what was it like to mash them together? Hank: Oh, man. Jeff: Sparks had to have flown off the pages. Hank: Oh, yes, right away. It was really fun. The first chapter is their meet-cute. And we had…I mean, we do a lot of like editing, right? So we’ll write the first pass and we’ll talk about it. We message a lot during the day and stuff like that, talk about where we want to go with things. And then we use Google Docs to write together. Yeah, so that was a lot of fun to just see the whole creation of it and like set up that setting and understand how they were going to meet and how that was going to go and how Michael would be so taken with Jazz at first sight. It was really fun. Deanna: Totally. Like, “Oh, you’re so handsome. Why is he talking to me?” Hank: That’s really fun. Jeff: And of course you’ve got the mystery element in this too. So rom-com mystery, which trying to think, I haven’t necessarily seen that kind of combo a lot because there’s straight up romantic suspense, of course. And then there’s like cozy mystery and maybe this ekes a little towards that with the rom-com–iness. But did you know that this was going to be like something to go for? Or did you just like mash these two elements together and say, “This thing…” Deanna: We thought about doing like a film noir concept, like a 1940s film. But see, that’s the thing. Like when Hank and I started writing, we didn’t have a direction. We were very much open to anything. And it was sort of like he created Jazz, I created Michael. We knew we wanted a murder. We knew we wanted it to be like… Hank: We wanted a murder. The murder got pretty gruesome too. I was really shocked. Deanna: Yeah, we wanted some things but then as we began to write it, it began to have elements of a real murder. So like our sheriff is blustering and funny. And Michael has his kitty cat, the little Mr. Pickles. Hank: Mr. Pickles. Deanna: Mr. Pickles, the fat, black-and-white kitty, which my dog is growling at right now. Jeff: Which we should note, for the people who may not be watching the video, Deanna just held up this stuffed kitty. And you’re going to be giving these away at GRL in a few months. Deanna: Yes, we have a few couple. So like when we created the story, I guess maybe other people with their writing collaborations might be different than we were. But Hank and I were not in a competition with each other. We were not like…we just knew we were going to have fun because we like each other and we know each other personally. And we were just like, “Let’s have fun with this.” And there was no like obsessive competition with like, “I don’t like the storyline.” Or, “I like this.” It was just sort of like, “What do you want to do? Okay, that sounds fun.” And we both ran with it. And we ended up developing this city on Lake Michigan and this little town and these little side characters. Jeff: Let’s talk about the mystery side of it. Who is dead? Deanna: Oh, yes, the mystery side of it. That’s right. So I’ll talk and then I’ll let Hank talk because I’ve been blabbering too long. So we decided we wanted it to be, like, film noir idea. And then it became like a legitimate murder mystery where there is a dead body and it’s gruesome and it’s creepy and it’s sad. And there’s like some crazy shit happening. And there’s like cops that need to come in. And there’s like a real mystery. And there’s actually a couple side mysteries that are happening over the book arc of the next two novels, novel two of which we will be submitting in the morning. We would have submitted it today but I’m being a typo psycho. I am. I’m a typo psycho. Hank: She’s finding a lot of good stuff, though. I like the changes. So, yeah. So the murder actually got more gruesome than I was anticipating. We were like, “Let’s go.” “Wait, do we want to go?” “Yeah, let’s do it. Let’s do it.” So it’s…do we want to say who it is? I mean, it happens early on. So I don’t think it’s a spoiler, right? Deanna: Oh, I don’t know. Why don’t we just talk about how creepy the murder is. Hank: Okay, we’ll just leave it just like that. Deanna: Not who is murdered. Hank: Someone’s murdered and maybe their hands are missing. Deanna: Or chopped off. Jeff: Oh, wow. Hank: So, yeah, that’s kind of… Jeff: That’s more gruesome than I expect in a rom-com. Hank: I know. Jeff: I’ll say that. Deanna: Oh, wait ’till you hear about the serial killer. Wait, that was a spoiler. I didn’t say it. Hank: But in the first book… Jeff: Is that a spoiler that we’re leaving in or a spoiler that we’re taking out? Deanna: We’re leaving it in but we’re not gonna respond about it. Jeff: Fair enough. Hank: That’s right. Jeff: A little breaking news there for the podcast that we will not do follow-up questions on. You were saying, Hank, on this murder. Hank: So yeah, so it was gruesome. And then there’s the discovery. But Michael is kind of, you know, he can’t help but be a little excited about it because it’s his first murder because he’s a small town, county coroner. And the only… Deanna: He’s not only a mortician. He’s the county coroner too. Hank: Right. So it’s up to him now to, like, investigate it. He’s never had a murder like this. He’s had a murder but they knew the victim and the attacker. So this is completely new for him. And he reads murder like mystery novels, so he’s really excited about it. So he’s, like, starting to play, like, detective. And then the sheriff is kind of, you know, like all blustering and yelling at him like, “Fleishman. Dilworth.” You know, that’s Jazz’s last name, Jazz Dilworth and he like calls everybody their last name and yells at them. And they’re always a suspect, so, “Don’t leave town.” Deanna: Everyone is a suspect until Musgrave says they’re not a suspect. Hank: “Don’t leave town.” Yeah. Sheriff Musgrave. Jeff: So if I understood correctly, you kind of just created this on the fly. Hank: Yep. Deanna: Totally. Jeff: For both the romance and the mystery? Deanna: Totally. Jeff: How did that play out in like the day-to-day writing? Because I can’t even like imagine having co-written something that there wasn’t more of a plan to it. Hank [softly]: I know! Deanna: How did it go? Hank: Actually it went smoother than I expected. Deanna: It was so much fun. Hank: Yeah. And it was a lot of fun because we chatted a lot on Facebook Messenger. And we’d text and we call each other now and then. We’d have conversations, phone conversations, and we’d plan out where we wanted things to go. And then one of us would say, “Okay, I’ll do this and then you can write that.” And then we just kind of took it. And then it was really fun because like you’d go through and you’d read…you know, how you like read through what you’ve written and it’s somebody else has written something new and you’re like, “Wow, this is like a whole new story.” Like you don’t know what you’re reading, you don’t know anything of what to expect. So it was really fun. Deanna: So awesome because, like, first, I gotta say, writing with Hank Edwards has been a pleasure. Because not only is he a great writer and like stupid funny, like so funny, I can’t even tell you how many times he writes something and I’m just like…laughing. But he and I are not…we’re not competitive individuals. We’re not like jumping into this, like, “Well, this is what I want. This is what I want.” It was so easy, where it was just like we just…Hank created Jazz and then Jazz has this profile that we went with. I created Michael and we had this profile we went with. He and I created an exterior mystery that happened to them. But because he created such a good profile and I just created such a strong profile, both of us knew who Michael and who Jazz were. And then it was like, “Well, Michael wouldn’t do that,” or, “Jazz wouldn’t say that.” And we didn’t like try to, like, undermine the other person. I don’t know. I just feel really blessed. I love you. I just feel blessed to be able to write a story with someone who is so easy and so fun and our sense of humor is both very similar and darkly twisted and inappropriate, like we both knew when our editor was gonna go, “Mm-mm. No.” Hank: I told her several times, I’m like, “This is gonna get cut out and you put it in and it’s gonna get cut out. I’m telling you right now.” And she’s like, “I want to leave it in.” I’m like, “Okay, but it’s gonna get cut.” And it did. Deanna: And I’m like, “They’re not gonna let us use the C-word.” And he’s like, “Maybe they will.” No, they didn’t. But it was so much…I don’t know. It was just one of those things that were really easy because Hank is so fun to work with. It was just easy. I mean, not that writing and editing is easy. But even as we went through the process, there would be scenes…we each knew where the scene was going to go. We knew what scene was going to happen next. And if it was…because our work…he’s very typical 9:00 to 5:00 work schedule, Monday through Friday, and I am Wednesday through Saturday, noon to 8:00, those four days. So like he would do all the stuff Wednesday through Saturday and then I’d open it up on Sunday, and then I’d do all the stuff Sunday to Tuesday. And then it wasn’t like we were fixing or changing each other’s work. It was like, “Oh, that’s a great scene.” And then I would add to it. And then he would take my scene and add to it. And it was just like layering and layering cool stuff with what was already funny. So it was like I knew what I was writing on Tuesday. I wrote this whole scene. And then Hank would write the next scene. And when I would get a chance to read on Thursday, he was like, “Oh, what am I going to read? I know what’s gonna happen but how is it gonna happen?” And he is so funny. So funny. And, I mean, it was just so great writing together. Jeff: So, Hank, for you, what’s kind of your side of that story as you’re like going through and doing your part on the book on your days? Hank: So it was a lot of fun. Like Deanna said, because I’ve been writing during my lunch hours at work, so like Monday through Friday I’d have like an hour and I usually go and I hide somewhere at the building and I’ll, like, be able to focus and write. And it was really fun to go through Google Docs and be able to accept all those changes because we always do the suggestions, right, so like the track changes so we can see what each other has done. And it’s always so much fun to see. It looks like, you know, like Deanna said, it’s like, “Oh,” it’s like a little present. You know, like, “There’s something new.” And I go through. But then seeing how she did the layering, I was talking to my husband, Fred, and I was like, you know, it’s like I’m picking up such good ideas about how to layer emotion in. Deanna is awesome at doing that and like pulling out the emotions in a scene and like digging in deeper where it needs to be. You know, that’s something that I’ve always kind of like, you know, I’m always like, “Write the action. Write the action. Write the action.” Deanna: But that’s what I love about his writing because he will write action that conveys emotion, whereas I would have written a long, drawn-out emotional monologue. And somehow the two just worked so great. I think. Hank: We are a good blend together like that. So, yeah, it’s really funny and she’s funny and really darkly funny. So it’s been a lot of fun because there’s some stuff where I like write something dark and funny and then, you know, you get the comment. It’s always fun to get that comment like, “LOL. Oh, my God.” And so then like all of a sudden like further down the page, she’s added somebody I’m like, “Oh, my God, you did not just write that.” So it’s really funny. Deanna: We’re so wrong. We’re so wrong, we’re so right, Hank. Hank: Yes. Jeff: Well, I really like the organic method it sounds like you guys had. Because like my brain can’t even begin to process trying to co-write without a plan. But I’ve heard other people do that and it works out great. What, as you got the draft done, what was the revision and also, I guess, making the book seem like it had one voice? What was that like? So was it like two different people at work? Deanna: Can I respond to this? Hank: Of course. Deanna: Okay, so, Hank would send me…well, it was in Google Docs. So we would get scenes together. So I feel like the way it went before anyone else read anything or we got any feedback from editors, from beta readers, or whatever, it was like we had our strong characters decided who they were and what they were and what the mystery was. And he would write a scene and then I would get it and I’m like, “Oh, it’s a good scene. I love where it’s going. Maybe…” Okay, so like I’m not going to give a spoiler, but there’s a scene at the end of Book 1 where the murderer is caught and our two heroes are like in this epic battle fighting them, like the murderer, right? Okay. So Hank writes that scene and I’m like, “Ah,” and then I go in and I add some fighting, some struggling, and maybe a little dialogue. Hank comes back in, he adds a little more dialogue. He remembers that the gun is on the other side of the room. Whatever the detail is, we both keep adding layers. And I think it comes back to the point that we’re both so invested in our characters and we weren’t, like, competing to try to be the better person. And I think that’s a lot of it. I mean, I think you can’t co-write a book together if you’re competitive or need center of attention. Hank and I just had so much fun. It would be like, “Oh, yeah. Add that, add that.” And he’s just like “Oh, my God. We’re great. That’s great. You shot him. Oh, I didn’t expect to shoot him. Let’s do that.” Whatever it was and we kept adding these layers and it became so much fun. But in the end, when we would get a scene and it was completed, we would…each of us would go back and read through the whole manuscript and be like, “Oh, we missed that detail.” And Hank would send that to me. And I’d be like, “Oh, yeah, that’s right. I forgot about that.” And he would add it. Or I would like, even today, we’re actually like one day off submitting Book 2. We were going to submit it today but I am like typo crazy. So I sent the manuscript to my Kindle so I could find any misspellings and typos. And I was like, “Oh, my God. We have a scene where Michael and Jazz are sitting in Michael’s living room with the TV. And in Book 1, he only has a TV in his bedroom. What are we going to do?” And Hank is like, “That’s cool. Good for catching that.” And I feel like that’s kind of how we’ve been like we’ll catch something and go. “Oh, I’m glad you caught that.” Hank: Yeah. But to your point, Jeff, you said like about planning and writing off the cuff, so the first book, I think, Deanna, you can tell me if I’m wrong. But the first book was really, I mean, it wasn’t easy because writing is hard but it was easier. Book 2, it was more of a struggle I think with writing it. Deanna: Book 2 was more of a struggle. Hank: And we had a lot going on. So we have like an overarching mystery, we have another, like, contained mystery. Deanna: Yes. Hank: So we’ve talked about it and we’re like Book 3, we really need to plan it out more. We’re gonna… Like once we let this book to get out a little bit, we’re going to like start planning Book 3 and then really like… Deanna: We need a serious luncheon with some planning. Hank: Yeah, so, absolutely. Deanna: Book 1 was very organic and natural. And Book 2, I mean, you’ll probably agree, Hank, I think we fell in love with our side characters so much we got distracted with all these sides stories. Even our editor was like, “Why are you talking about that and that?” We’re like… Hank: “Because we like them.” Deanna: So we had to cut a lot of scenes and really focus back on the romance, on book 2. Jeff: DVD extras, deleted scenes. Hank: DVD extras, exactly. Jeff: But let’s talk about those side characters a little bit because there’s a whole paragraph of the blurb for Book 1 that details the side characters. Michael’s sassy assistant, Kitty, the grumpy Sheriff Musgrave, Russell’s creepy PR rep, Norbert, Michael’s grandfather who likes his Manhattans strong and his women saucy. And of course, who we’ve already met, Mr. Pickles Furryton the Third. Hank: Yes. Mm-hmm. Jeff: So did you guys split those up in the same way that you took Jazz, Hank, and Deanna took Michael? Or did these get created on the fly as you needed them? Deanna: They were on the fly. Hank: Yeah. Deanna: We just like… Hank: We just do, kind of. Yeah. Deanna: I think I came up with Mr. Pickles Furryton the Third and Hank created Sheriff Musgrave. Because I think when we were talking, Sheriff Musgrave was actually like an old man and Hank made him this whole, like, Ron Perlman kind of character. Hank: Yes. Very Ron Perlman. Deanna: He has a lot of attitude. And Kitty, I don’t know where she came from. Hank: You created Kitty. Deanna: Did I? Okay, because I imagine her. Do you watch “Blue Blood” with Tom Selleck? Jeff: I have not. Deanna: Oh, anyways. His secretary is this voluptuous like blonde chick and I pictured her. And I don’t know who created Grandpa. Hank: I think we both did. Deanna: You had Steve. Hank: Oh, yeah, the handyman. Deanna: We both made Ezra. Hank: The apprentice. Deanna: I don’t know anything about them. That’s not a spoiler at all. Jeff: That’s very impressive to just kind of create on the fly like that. Two people pantsing would make my head explode, but. Hank: It was insane. I don’t know how we managed to do it but… Jeff: I think you had fun with it all the more. Hank: …we had really good feedback from the editor. Deanna: We did have so much fun, Jeff. Hank: Yeah. Deanna: I don’t know how lucky I am. Like a year ago, I sent him a drunk text message that we should write a book together. And we have had the best year. Jeff: Had it even crossed your minds before the drunk text to do this in some, like, other random moment? Deanna: No. Hank: Never ever really even talked about it? I mean, we see each other GRL. She comes up for Ferndale Pride because she lives about an hour and a half away from me. Deanna: I’m northwest Ohio, he’s southwest Michigan, so we’ve done some pride festivals together. But in all freaking honesty, the whiskey made me do it, Jeff. I literally texted him, “Hey, full disclosure, I’ve been drinking. We should write a book together.” I do believe, Hank, that was the quote. Hank: Pretty much. Yeah. Deanna: And he was like, “We would write the fuck out of a rom-com.” And I was like, “We would.” And then we ran with it. And then that’s that. It was just, like, all fun. Jeff: And it’s interesting that you’re evolving in Book 2 and probably in Book 3 too. You had the fun moment. Now you kind of have to make everything keep tying together in the next two books. Hank: Yes. It’s all got to come together now for the third book. Yeah. Jeff: Because that’s like, yeah, when you have all that tied together stuff, because I’ve been reading a lot of romantic suspense lately where it’s like something that arcs across a trilogy or whatever, and it’s like…it’s exciting. Hank: Right. Deanna: Yeah. Book 2 is tentatively called “Murder Most Deserving,” and it was a lot harder to write than the first book. Hank: Yeah. Jeff: As fun though, I hope? Hank: Oh, yeah. Deanna: Oh yeah, just as fun, but there were moments I feel like we both checked out. And we’ve had this conversation. We know that we checked out because we had decided on a storyline for Michael and Jazz. And then we were like, “This doesn’t feel right.” Because it’s not your book, it also belongs to someone else, you don’t just say, “Oh, that storyline can’t happen,” because two of you decided together so you keep going with it. And then there’s moments where we had to talk and we’re like…where I was like, “I don’t like this.” And he’s like, “Yeah, I don’t like it either.” And I thought I said I didn’t like it. I’m like, “Maybe you said you didn’t like it. But I didn’t really expect you didn’t like it and I don’t know why we didn’t like it. And I don’t even know why we’re doing it.” And it was like we had…I mean, there was like, there was a couple of moments like that on the story. And there was also like we said in the beginning, we love our side characters too much. And we gave them a lot of screen time they did not deserve, even though we love them. So we had to distract and take a lot of stuff out. Not that we wanted to take it out but it was like why is this thing here? No one cares… Hank: Right. Deanna: …except us. So it was a little different. Like we created this wonderful world and in Book 2 we kind of just went crazy. We, like, went crazy with the Cheez Whiz. It’s like, “I love Sheriff Musgrave. I love Missy.” And we just wrote all these scenes and we’re like… And part of that I will say is my fault because I sent a lot of scenes to Hank before we even plotted the book. I was like, “I wrote this funny scene I’m going to send you.” And he’s like, “I love it.” And we wrote it. Hank: And I was like opening emails from Oprah. “And you get a storyline, and you get a storyline.” Deanna: Totally. Jeff: Maybe these could become short stories for these characters if you can’t get them into the book. Hank: That’s great. Jeff: So take a moment to brag on each other. And outside of working on this book, what do you like about each other’s work? Hank: I’ll go. Jeff: Hank first. Hank: All right. I love Deanna’s depth of characters. So her books, I think the first one I read of yours was “The Legend of Sleepy Hollow.” And I was like, “Oh, Ichabod. Oh, you naughty boy.” But then I can’t remember in what order then I read them but like “Easy Ryder,” I love that book. That is an awesome book. And I love the time period and I love the characters and I just love all of it and the discovery. That’s a road trip, another…you love the road trip books. Deanna: Apparently. Hank: Apparently. And then “Wrecked” is awesome. It’s really good. But she has a way of just like, you know, pulling up those emotions and really getting into the romance of it and doing an awesome job with it and having the characters. And then the conflict is organic, it’s not, like, fabricated. And it all blends together. She’s got a really good sense of story. Jeff: Nice. Deanna: That’s so sweet. I feel like, Hank, your dialogue sells your story. You could write a whole book on just dialogue with nothing else and people would buy it and laugh. You’re hilarious and your dialogue is great. And I feel like our styles mesh well because I do write more… I like to write a lot of the internal monologue and the emotion. But I’ll tell you an example, and this is a semi-spoiler in Book 2. But this is what I love about Hank’s writing. Okay. I’m not gonna tell too much of the story but there is a scene where something really shocking happens for our character, Jazz, the hairdresser. And the scene is in Jazz’s point of view. You’ll know what I’m talking about in a second. So the scene is in Jazz’s point of view and then Michael, our mortician, bursts through the door. And everyone is like, “How did you get here?” And he’s like, “I ran here.” And that sounds like simplistic but the emotional intensity of why Michael would run five blocks to the salon where Jazz works on a mere phone call just conveys so much intensity with three words, “I ran here.” And that’s what I love about Hank’s writing. I mean, I write the long emotional, internal monologue. And Hank writes that same intense emotional monologue in three words, “I ran here.” And I think, I mean, I’ve always…that’s what I love about his books. But I feel like those two things complement each other in our writing. Like I like to write the long drawn out emotional and he writes that same scene in three words, “I ran here.” And that’s why I love writing with him. Jeff: Cool. They’re hearting each other for those people not watching the video right now. Jeff: So you mentioned three towns…three towns, no, three books in the “Lacetown” series are planned. Do you foresee life in the universe beyond those three since you’re having such a good time? Deanna: Yeah. Hank: We talked about it. We’ve discussed it, yeah. We’ve got the trilogy planned and then we’ll see what happens with it. Deanna: We have at least two in our head. Jeff: That’s cool. Deanna: Beyond the three. Jeff: Now what about separately? What’s coming up next outside of the “Lacetown” series for you both? Hank: You have something coming up soon, Deanna. Deanna: Well, I have one thing coming up for sure and hopefully two. I also write young adult fiction just like Hank does under his…is it RG or RD? Hank: R.G. Deanna: R.G. Thomas. Hank has a young adult series under RG Thomas. And I have a young adult series, K.D. Worth, which is very different from my Deanna Wadsworth writing. It’s young adults/new adults because my characters are 19 and there are some, I don’t know, level-three sexy moments. So you can’t really…like you know people get funny about young adult that has sexy stuff in it. There’s a strong spiritual element with the main character who was trying to kill himself because of his family sending him to like one of those creepy pray-the-gay away camps. And the moment he kills himself he’s saved by a young teenage Grim Reaper, who decides that he wants to give him a second chance in life. And there’s a sassy foul-mouthed, because no one understands why Deanna would write a character like that, a sassy foul-mouthed angel who helps these boys on their journey. And that story is called “The Grim Life.” And Book 3, the final series, the final saga in that trilogy “The Lost Souls” is coming out this fall. And I’m really, really excited about that. I mean, a lot of M/M or gay romance, whatever you want to call it, authors know that young adult isn’t where the sales and money are at, sadly, but this is like a really intense…I don’t want to say pet project because that trivializes it, but it’s really a series that means more to me than almost anything I’ve ever written. Hank: Yeah. You’ve been working on these for what? Like two years now? Deanna: Yeah, four. It took me two years to write Book 3 because I just emotionally invested in it. There’s a lot of death and questioning of what goes on on the other side and where God sees your soul and all these like intensely hard questions. And to make things harder on myself, I put a school shooting in Book 3 because why not? Hank: No, why? Deanna: It’s so emotionally intense that you can’t write it. So that comes out this fall. But I’m hoping my second book in my Pride of the Caribbean Cruise series comes out which is a merman. Hank: Nice. Deanna: A merman… Hank: On a cruise. Deanna: …on a Caribbean cruise. It’s like I like to be intense or I like to be funny. I can’t be… Hank: There’s no in between, right. Jeff: Either end of the spectrum. Hank: That’s right. Deanna: That’s what I do. So that’s what’s coming out for me. Jeff: Cool. Hank: I will be working on the final book of the “Critter Catcher” series, final book for now. It’s tentatively titled “Dread of Night.” So and I’ve got about six chapters written. I’m working on a big pivotal scene also, so I need to just like…now that Book 2 has been sent off for consideration I can like, you know, kind of focus on that because I’m really bad at like jumping between projects too. Like my mind gets stuck in the other characters because while I’m working on this other I’m like, “But wait, what about…?” So, yeah. Jeff: Cool. All right. What is the… Hank: There’s other stuff to work on too but that’s the big thing coming up. Deanna: I love the “Critter Catcher” books. They’re so good. I manipulated Hank into giving me the last book when I was sick last summer. I was like, “Shouldn’t you send it to me? I know that you’re going to submit it for publishing in a month, but I’m really sick.” Hank: “I need to beta it. I’m sick.” Yeah. Deanna: Yes. I did do that. Jeff: And it worked too, right? Deanna: It worked. Hank: I did. I sent it. I was good. Deanna: And it was worth it. Jeff: So what’s the best way for readers to keep up with you guys online? Let’s start with Hank. Hank: I have a website. It’s hankedwardsbooks.com. You can also find my young adult fiction at townofsuperstition.com. And I do have those books listed on my Hank Edwards’ website just to make it easier. And then I’m on Facebook. I have a Facebook page. It’s facebook.com/hankedwardsbooks. And I really don’t use…Twitter confuses me. I get really…it’s just this noise. It’s like people yelling at each other. And so I have a Twitter account but I’m not out there much. But I am on Instagram. I usually post pictures of my cats. You know, and that’s @hankedwardsbooks as well. Jeff: Cool. And Deanna? Deanna: I’m on Facebook, deannawadsworthauthor. And Instagram, I go by @deannawads. I don’t know why I didn’t finish my last name but I don’t know. Everybody called my grandpa Wadsy. So I should have done Deanna Wadsy but I screwed that up. But I’m on those two. A little on Twitter and a little on Pinterest, all under Deanna Wadsworth. Mostly my most activity is on Instagram or my website, deannawadsworth.com. And that’s it. And you should totally read Hank’s R.G. Thomas books. It’s like Harry Potter but gay with, like, dragons. And little garden gnomes. I fricking love those books. You better write another one after we write our book. After we write our book. You’ve got to. Hank: Got it. Jeff: You’ve got your marching orders now, Hank. Hank: I do. I get them a lot. Deanna: He doesn’t have a wife, but… Hank: It’s all right. Deanna: …I’ll jump in that role. Hank: She’s my work wife. Jeff: All right. Well, this has been a blast. We will definitely link up to everything in the show notes that we’ve talked about here. And we wish you the best of success on the “Lacetown Murder Mysteries.” Hank: Thanks very much, Jeff. It’s been fun. Deanna: Thank you, Jeff.

Jeff Neumeister, Founder and CEO of Neumeister & Associates, joins us today to talk about cryptocurrency taxes, a confounding area of tax law (what isn’t?) and one that you should master if you are an investor in digital currency. Because what you don’t know could have an adverse impact on your pocketbook. That’s what happened to one U.S. college student in 2017 who invested $5,000 in Ethereum and somehow would up owing the IRS $400,000 in taxes. Yes, you stand to benefit greatly from understanding how the IRS views crypto (Hint: It’s in the same category as your house). And you’ll learn the cardinal rule of crypto taxation: The buck stops with you.   This is specially important this year after the 2018 market crash since many investors are selling their cryptocurrency and fleeing the market, without full knowledge of the tsunami of capital gains liabilities that these transactions may be triggering.   A forensic accountant by trade, Jeff brings great credibility to the task of walking us through the minefields of crypto taxes. He offers practical tips on everything from what constitutes a taxable event to what makes crypto taxes so challenging and how mined coins are taxed. That’s just a few of the questions Jeff answers in this episode. You’ll come away feeling a lot more confident about understanding your tax burden as you stagger into your tax prep marathon.     Topics Covered in this Conversation with Jeff Neumeister   What makes crypto taxes so challenging. What constitutes a taxable event? What is the difference between short-term and long-term gains? How are mined coins taxed? What happens if I give some coins as a gift, or someone gives me crypto? Do I have to pay tax on coins that were hacked? What happens if I lose some coins? What are the acceptable ways to report coin gains? What are the biggest obstacles to easily filing crypto taxes? Increasingly, there are charities that accept crypto. Is that something that would be helpful at tax time?  How are exchanges doing in terms of making it easy for investors to file taxes? Can crypto losses be balanced against traditional fiat capital losses. What’s the craziest thing you’ve ever seen or heard with it comes to filing or not filing crypto taxes. Let’s step back a bit and look at the process involved - let’s look at two scenarios: Scenario A: Let’s say you are Sally Fey, a beginner investor in 2017 and you got all caught up in the buying and selling during the Bull Market and you didn’t track all the coins you traded across multiple exchanges nor did you jot down the buy/sell price  for each transaction. Now your taxes are looming and you have your head in your hands. How do you regroup? Scenario B: Unlike Sally Fey, you are Matt Jones -- a beginner investor in 2019 and it’s a Bear Market and you’ve been told now is the time to buy. You’re starting with a clean slate. You’ve set up your exchange accounts, you are ready to trade. What’s good tax hygiene you should follow from Day One and on to Day 365 to simplify your tax headache for the year? Can you get away with NOT paying crypto taxes? What are the penalties for non-compliance? Any closing thoughts on how to make our crypto tax lives easier?   Questions and Comments? chasingunicorns@gem.co   Guest Contact Information Jeff Neumeister Website | LinkedIn | Twitter Resource Links: 3 Ways the IRS Is Taxing Cryptocurrencies Taxes and crypto Turning your 2018 Bitcoin and Crypto Losses into Tax Savings What You Don’t Know About Crypto Taxes Can Hurt You Tax Nightmare: Student Invested $5k in Ethereum & Now Owes $400k in Taxes 4 things to know about your cryptocurrency at tax time Year-End Tax Tips And Strategies For Cryptocurrency Investors IRS Guidelines Transcript: Interview with Jeff Neumeister Interview Recorded On: November 12 Topic: Crypto Taxes Chitra: Hello, and welcome to Running with Unicorns, your portal to the world of cryptocurrency. I'm Chitra Ragavan, Chief Strategy Officer at Gem. It's that time of year again, and your crypto taxes are looming. Here's what you can do about it. Our guest today is going to walk us through the ins and outs of crypto tax filing. Jeff Neumeister is CEO and Founder of Neumeister & Associates, an LA-based tax advisory firm with a growing practice in crypto taxes.   Jeff, welcome to the program.   Jeff: Thank you.   Chitra: What makes filing crypto taxes so challenging?   Jeff: It'd be probably because there are so many different things that are happening in the crypto world. It's not just mining coins or just trading coins, but there are forks, airdrops. There's just a lot happening. Because it's a new space, it's a lot that the taxing authorities are still trying to wrap their heads around.   Chitra: Let's start with the basics. What constitutes a taxable event in cryptocurrency?   Jeff: A taxable event is anything that results in a tax obligation or a potential tax obligation. That could be selling something, it could be generating income, it could be incurring a expense.   Chitra: Is it different than in regular taxes? What are the differences and similarities?   Jeff: It's similar in concept, except with cryptos there's just, again, so much more going on. Normally, if someone is just, say, a W2 earner, they have a paycheck, and that's the sole source of income that is subject to tax. With cryptos, however, if you're mining and trading in the ICO world, there's so many things that are happening that you're constantly subjected to different types of taxes.   Chitra: One of the basic things one needs to know is short-term and long-term gains. How does that work?   Jeff: Short-term gains just refer to anything, anytime you hold an asset or a piece of property for less than 12 months. Long-term is anything above that. Now, they also come along with different taxable rates. With long-term capital gains, it could be anywhere from 0 to 20%, so much better than what most of us pay with taxes for our income earnings. For short-term gains, it's anywhere from 10 to 37%. Short-term capital gains are essentially the same as ordinary income tax rates.   Chitra: Let's look at different types of crypto and how they will be impacted by taxes. Let's start with if you're mining cryptocurrency. How do you account for those?   Jeff: Mining's interesting, because it's kind of two things at once. When you mine a coin, or a fraction of a fraction of a coin, you're generating ordinary income, so whatever the value of the mined coin was, or fraction of a coin was, you have to pay ordinary income taxes on that. Then, that also establishes your cost basis in the coin that you now hold. If you do something else with it later on, trade it or sell it, you'll have capital gains on top of that.   Chitra: Then, let's look at crypto gifts. If you get a gift of Bitcoin, or Ether, or EOS, how do you handle that when it comes to tax time?   Jeff: If you're the receiver of a gift, then you just need to be aware of what the holder's or the donor's cost basis was. If they acquired something for, say, $100 and gave it to you, you need to make sure that you have that down in your records that your cost basis is $100.   There's no tax owed on a gift received. However, if you're the gift giver, you might have to do a informational filing, a form 709. What that is is anytime you gift more, at least in 2018, more than $15,000, you have to file a form 709. You don't have to pay gift tax on that, but if you exceed your gift-giving of $5.6 million during the course of your lifetime, then you have to start paying gift taxes.   Chitra: If only we could all be so lucky.   Jeff: Right. Most of us will never have to worry about that, but make sure that you file a form 709, because there are penalties with not filing.   Chitra: Then, can you give crypto to charity? I see that increasingly, there are a lot of, even the Red Cross and other organizations accepting crypto. When that happens, is that a good thing to do, when it comes to tax time? Obviously, it's a good thing to do in any case, but it probably helps with taxes, doesn't it?   Jeff: Absolutely. It's just like any charitable contribution, except instead of giving clothes, or fiat, or artwork, or jewelry, you're giving cryptos, yeah.   Chitra: It's taxed similarly?   Jeff: Yes, mm-hmm (affirmative).   Chitra: Then, if you're hacked, what happens? You're losing a bunch of coins because you got hacked. Do you have to pay taxes on that?   Jeff: No, but you have to make sure that it's documented. It's the same thing as if someone came into your house and burglarized it, right? It's a casualty loss. That would be an itemized deduction. You have to make sure that you record those things. Chitra: What if you just lose your crypto? Like, they're on some exchange, you don't know where it is, or you've lost the password. Can they figure it out that you have this crypto? How do you account for the missing crypto?   Jeff: That's a little bit more challenging. If you no longer have access, say, to your key, and you'll never obtain access, then that could be construed as a casualty loss, as well. If you just say, "I don't know which exchange it's on," hopefully that won't come up if you're audited, yeah.   Chitra: And if you are?   Jeff: Then, as long as you show a good faith effort in being consistent and transparent with taxing authorities, and they could see that you're not trying to hide anything, then you should be okay.   Chitra: Do you hear of people that are trying to hide crypto by claiming losses, that they've lost it?   Jeff: Some folks, yeah, yeah. More egregious than that, though, we've had, there was one gentleman that was seeking out a CPA, who made a little over 2.5 million in cryptos, and said, "No, I'm just not going to file. If they want the money, they have to come after me."   Chitra: Did they?   Jeff: Well, that's what's going to happen over the next couple years, yeah. The IRS has started mounting a task force specialist specifically to investigate cryptocurrency filings.   Chitra: Is that going to be an easy task? Will they find people that are scofflaws?   Jeff: They will absolutely find people, right? It's going to be interesting in the tax world for the next couple of years, and tax courts, people fighting them.   Chitra: You're seeing a lot of new developments in tax filings, in tax law as a result of this?   Jeff: Not yet. Really, they're just kind of testing the waters, now. The last, about a year ago, they started issuing subpoenas to exchanges, and they were winning, to get transaction records from them, so they could see what people are trading and how much people are earning, so they could compare that with individual tax returns, to find evidence of those that are evading their taxes. They're just starting to institute those audits now and will be taking these folks to tax court as needed. There's a lot of things that will come out of it, but it hasn't happened yet.   Chitra: Because I think, particularly in the early days, there were probably a lot of people who weren't filing taxes. Is there like a statute of limitations, or does it matter if like 10 years ago you weren't filing taxes, and now the IRS is starting to think about this and starting to do these audits?   Jeff: There is a statute. It's, generally speaking, three years from the date of which a filing was due, but that's only if it was an innocent mistake. If you're intentionally evading, there's no statute on that.   Chitra: How do you report, typically, gains and losses? What's the process?   Jeff: The process is usually, you want to have everything calculated, all the transactions. Coin for coin, coin for fiat, and those will be itemized on a form 8949, and summarized on a schedule D, which are attached to the tax returns.   Chitra: Having done my crypto taxes this year, it's fairly complicated. It's just, you have to look at every single transaction. Talk a little bit about what that process is like. It's fascinating for me to see the level of detail and how you actually go about finding those records, if somebody hasn't kept those records, and being able to trace the flow of that currency from the exchange to your wallet, or if you're trading, you've got all of these multiple transactions that have taken place, hundreds, maybe thousands of them.   Jeff: Yeah, it could get very complicated. That's why a lot of our clients have come to us, to help them untangle these complex array of transactions, ranging from, if they have a few hundred coins that they're trading across multiple years, you can end up having thousands and thousands of cost pulls, because you have to trace every single transaction to its cost basis. Its cost basis depend on whether you used FIFO, LIFO, or HIFO.   Chitra: Explain that a little bit.   Jeff: Sure, yeah. Those are the manners in which you inventory the cells of different coins. LIFO, last in, first out, that's saying, when you sell a coin, you go to the last time that you had acquired that coin, and you sell it out of that pool. If you're buying and selling coins all day long, go across multiple months, you have many cost pulls, even thousands or tens of thousands of cost pulls.   FIFO, first in, first out, is where you sell your oldest coin. What that does is it will result in fewer long-term capital gains, but you're kind of eating up your tax obligation now, versus deferring it to later on.   Chitra: Let's say I'm trading, okay? I'm on exchanges, and I'm trading. I'm not really thinking about ... It's not something you think during your trading process, right? It's something you do after the fact. I'm not thinking LIFO and FIFO when I'm like, "Let me find what's my oldest Bitcoin, and let me trade that for Ether." I'm just like, trading. Am I doing the right thing? Is this something you go after the fact, and start to look through it and make those calculations?   Jeff: The easiest thing is to maintain good records, so that whoever, whether you're doing it yourself or outsourcing it to a professional like us, then they could go through those records a lot easier, because it does get complicated. As long as you have the information, it could be all untangled.   Chitra: What's the largest number of transactions you've done, filing taxes, that you've seen? Thousands, hundreds of thousands?   Jeff: Probably in the hundreds of thousands. I think our largest client had a little shy of 200,000 transactions across about 2.5 years. It was a lot. It took a massive amount of manpower, because there isn't a way to fully automate it, yet. We've established a proprietary method to semi-automate portions of it, but not the whole thing. There's still a lot of manual touches that have to be done to it.   Chitra: Were you able to do it?   Jeff: Yeah, yeah. We were able to untangle all of it. He had a massive tax obligation, but most importantly, it'll keep him compliant with the IRS. He had the cash, right? If you make a million dollars in cryptos, and if you have to pay a few hundred thousand in tax, you know, you're still coming out ahead.   Chitra: This is true. What are some of the biggest obstacles today for average investors, when it comes to filing taxes?   Jeff: I think having an understanding about how complex the tax aspect is with cryptos, if you're trading, mining, doing anything else. I think just being aware and mindful of that.   Chitra: There's also the issue of documentation, right? For example, different exchanges can give you different levels of information about your trades, so at the end of the year, some exchanges will give you a lot of information. Other exchanges give you virtually no information. How do you start to do the detective work to find all of your records?   Jeff: That's one of the tricky parts, yeah, because there isn't really any sort of regulation about what all the exchanges have to provide users. There's going to be, and it's moving that direction. For now, it's kind of up to the individual to maintain their own records. If the exchange only provides piecemeal stuff, or in the case of Bittrex that just up and deleted people's information, it's still your obligation to make sure that you're tracking things.   Chitra: What happened in that instance where the information was deleted?   Jeff: Well, they up and decided just to remove information.   Chitra: This was an exchange?   Jeff: Yeah, yeah, Bittrex. It's still the user's responsibility to maintain the records. The individuals that were subjected to that, had they downloaded their transactional information, let's say, every week or every month, they would have been okay, right, just in case something does happen to an exchange. That's something we advise our clients to do is don't wait till the end of the year to start pulling your information, even if you're using a CPA like us, right? Pull the information maybe once a month, just in case something happens.   Chitra: That's interesting. That's something I've never thought to do. It's kind of surprising that they're allowed to even delete information. Is that going to change, in the future?   Jeff: Yeah, there's definitely more pressure in regulation around what the exchanges are doing. Also, keep in mind that a lot of these are foreign exchanges, too, right? The IRS and the federal government only has so much control over what they do.   Chitra: Because this is such a global flow of money.   Jeff: Exactly. It's a global thing. Right.   Chitra: How does the US government, or how is the US government attempting to get a handle on this? Do you feel like the government is kind of playing catch up, now?   Jeff: A bit, yeah. I think there was too much downtime from 2014 to now. You know, the last time the IRS issued any formal guidance was in 2014.   Chitra: What was that initial guidance?   Jeff: It was maybe like a five-page notice, 2014-21, which pretty much just said that it's not legal tender, and to pay your tax on it. There really wasn't much guidance beyond that.   Chitra: What happened before then, like 2009 through '14? Was there any guidance?   Jeff: Nothing formal.   Chitra: What were people doing then?   Jeff: I think, at the time, IRS and other government agencies probably just assumed that this is just a fringe thing, it's a temporary thing, it's not going to last, but look at us now. There are industries being built around blockchain and crypto, and they realize that, now, and the amount of money that people have earned in the sector. They see it as, like, it's a huge nest egg waiting to be tapped.   Chitra: Build your highways and all of that stuff.   Jeff: Right, yeah.   Chitra: Now, when you're filing taxes, can your crypto losses or gains, be balanced against your traditional portfolio?   Jeff: Yes, yeah. The way it works is short-term gains and losses get netted against other short-term gains and losses, regardless of if they're crypto or not. Then, the same thing with long-term.   Chitra: Great. Now, what are the penalties for noncompliance?   Jeff: For failing to file a return, it's a flat 5% of whatever your tax obligation is. For not paying the total amount of taxes owed, it's one half of 1% per month. If it's just one month late, half of 1%, it's not a lot, but if a couple of years go by, a few years go by, it can add up really quick, plus interest.   Chitra: Can you go to jail?   Jeff: Absolutely, unfortunately. If it's deemed that it was tax evasion, like in the example that I gave you of the gentleman that was looking into using our service and decided, no, they can just come after me, a couple million dollars, if they find evidence of tax evasion, then it could be subjected to a felony, which leads up to up to five years in prison and up to a quarter million dollars in penalties.   Chitra: Now, there's a lot of money laundering also going on, right? Does that play a role at all in this?   Jeff: Not so much with the taxes, but it is something that they're mindful about, out there. I see that more in the banking sector, that being an issue. In fact, one of our clients in the crypto space, their bank account was just abruptly closed with no notice. They said, "You can't bank with us," because they are concerned about potential money laundering.   Chitra: What is their fear?   Jeff: I think because they don't know where the money is coming from, right? If you have crypto-related money, it's so easy for it to be maneuvered from overseas. I think that's the concern, because there isn't enough regulation out there yet, right? Some people are just distancing themselves.   Chitra: It seems like there's a whole bunch of areas in which the federal government and governments around the world are now grappling with, how do you make people accountable for all of this wealth that they're generating, and how do we get a piece of that action?   Jeff: Right, that's what it is. They want their cut. As long as you give them their cut, they're not going to bother you.   Chitra: Now, let's look at two scenarios. Let's say you're a Sally Fay, you're a woman investor. You're just starting out. You're super excited. It's 2017. The bull market is in full swing, and you've learned how to trade, and you're just buying and selling without any regard for keeping tabs on your cost basis or the proceeds that you're making. Then, come December, you're stuck with having done thousands of transactions, and you have no idea how to go about finding those records, because every trade that you've done is potentially taxable, correct?   Jeff: Correct.   Chitra: What do you do?   Jeff: In those kinds of situations, because it's a lot of cleanup, the best thing to do is consult with an expert like us, so we can get you cleaned up and caught up. Then, going forward, you're on the right path, right? And to be mindful just about all the tax consequences of all that trading activity.   Chitra: Do you just sort of systematically start to go back and look at every trade you've made?   Jeff: In order to calculate all the gains and losses, historically, yeah. We have to kind of start from inception. If someone started trading in 2014, right, we have to go back to square one.   Chitra: That's pretty daunting.   Jeff: It is, yeah, yeah. At least once we get you caught up, then you should be okay, right?   Chitra: Let's look at scenario B. Let's say that I am a young man, Matt Jones. I'm not in the crypto market yet. It's the bear market, and people are telling me, "Hey, now's the time to come in. Buy low, and you can sell high." I have a clean slate. I've set up my exchanges, but I haven't done any transactions. What are the kinds of things I need to put in place to have tax hygiene, so to speak?   Jeff: Some best practices.   Chitra: Yes.   Jeff: I'd say, first, be mindful that you do any sort of trade coin for coin, that's all going to be a taxable event. Have at it, but just be mindful that there could be a lot of tax compliance to deal with at the end of the year. That affects some people's volume activity.   Another thing, to make sure to pull their records on a consistent basis. We usually, we're advising our clients now to download their transactional history from each exchange they use about once a month. Just make it a month-end practice, just in case either they got locked out, the data is deleted, or something is hacked, just in case anything happens, at least you have the records.   Then, outside of transactions like that, if you're trading on an exchange, if you're gifting coins, jot down somewhere on a Excel sheet or a Word document who you gave it to, when you gave it to them, and how much you gave, right? Just in case if there's any gift tax compliance to do, we could do that as well.   Chitra: Is it advisable to have a notebook and a pen, and when you're making these trades, to actually just jot it down, or put it on an Excel sheet that on this date, I bought X amount of Bitcoin, or I sold X amount of Ether for X amount, and to have that? Is that going to be helpful at the end of the year?   Jeff: It could, but like all the transactional data within the exchanges usually is going to have all that information. If someone wants to just separately track it, and if they're not doing a lot of trades during the year, that could be just as efficient and make their process easier at the end.   Chitra: Now, tell us some war stories. What are some of the anecdotes that you tell people about folks having challenges in filing taxes, or cases that you've seen, or what the government is doing to come to terms with this new source of income?   Jeff: Sure. Probably a couple examples. We have clients that were trading back from, the oldest one is 2013, maybe about a little over $4 million, and of course, they never reported any of it. Thankfully, in contrast to the other individual I was referencing, he said, "You know what, I just want to be compliant, right?" He came to the table. We went through everything, all the records, and got him up to speed.   Going forward, if he's audited, or maybe I should say when, because it's a lot, a big amount, we have work papers in place that we could provide in response to an audit. 90% of the time, that'll just make it go away, almost immediately. As long as the IRS can see that you've made a good faith effort, that there's been due diligence in being compliant, and you have work papers and a CPA to back it up, the audit will go away, right?   Another example, well, with the IRS, it's not so much a war story, but it's come to my attention that they've selected around 1200 to 1300 cases already from the 2017 filings that they're going to move forward with audits. Now, I don't know which ones those are. That comes from a source I have within the audit community, but we suspect that those are probably the larger ones, mostly, people that have generated hundreds of thousands, if not millions.   Chitra: Is the IRS not only trying to get revenue back from these taxable events but also trying to set precedence in some way?   Jeff: Yeah. It serves both purposes, yeah. One, it's a huge amount of revenue just sitting there for the government that hasn't been tapped yet. The second is going through this process, and going through these audits, and taking some people to tax court will set precedence, so that it's clear to everyone else that, one, you need to be compliant. Don't play games with them. I wouldn't be surprised if they send at least a few people to jail over this that have evaded their taxes.   Also, it allows them to kind of establish authoritative guidance, because they're going to take everything they find. They will undoubtedly issue some pronouncements about, "Here's how you calculate this. Here's why you file things this way," which right now, we don't have.   Chitra: What about moving out of the US, like just moving abroad so you don't have to pay your taxes, or even moving to Puerto Rico. You hear a lot about that. Is that going to help you or hurt you, in the long run?   Jeff: I think for taxes, temporarily, it would help, right? But, do you really want to expatriate yourself, denounce the US, in order to just save some money temporarily on taxes? I don't know.   Chitra: Depends, I would say.   Jeff: It depends, yeah, yeah.   Chitra: On what the amount is. Are you hearing about people who are actually doing that?   Jeff: No one I know has actually done it. Some folks that we know have been debating it, and they asked to do some research on expatriation process.   Chitra: It's a fascinating area. When you're doing the forensic work, you've been asked to help, I think, with investigations and things like that. How do you go about collecting the forensic evidence on these cases?   Jeff: Really kind of the same way we do crypto calculations for our clients, right? We pull all the underlying third-party documents. In this case, transactional records. We get their narrative about what happened, hear the story, because any forensic case, anything that we do, it's not just the numbers. It's also the context. It's also what happened, the story, if you will.   With forensic cases, there's usually a lot of other moveable parts, as well, particularly like divorce cases, where people are sometimes hiding funds. Partnership disputes, where one partner is embezzling money. We see that kind of stuff a lot more often than what people realize.   Chitra: What happens in the case of a divorce? Who gets the crypto? How do you actually even split the proceeds, if that's what happens?   Jeff: Same thing with kind of like a house, right? If it was community property, assuming it's a community property state like California, then any assets would be split 50/50, unless it was bought with separate property. If you don't want to cash out the portfolio, then usually one partner would buy out the other half from the other partner, just like a house. If you don't want to literally split the house in half, one person wants to keep it, one partner would buy out the house from the other.   Chitra: Well, that actually raises an interesting question, because let's say one partner is very crypto-savvy and the other partner is not crypto-savvy. It probably is pretty easy to hide your assets in the form of crypto, because the other person has no way of finding out how much you have and where you have this.   Jeff: True. Yeah, there's an opportunity there for someone to try to take advantage. Part of the divorce proceedings process is to come to the table and be transparent with both partners. Usually, like, you're essentially signing off to the court that let the partner know 100% of the assets out there. To try to hide it is essentially perjuring with the court.   Chitra: Where do you see all of this going in the next few years, as more and more people get into the space? There is a prediction that you're going to have a billion new crypto investors, over the next five years, entering the market. Where do you see the field of taxation going?   Jeff: Yeah, definitely, I see a second adoption, as well, coming in the coming years. I think, by the time that happens, there'll be a little bit more infrastructure in place with the taxation piece. One, with the exchanges. They'll start being a little bit better about what they record for their clients and what they issue out at the end of the year. I think we'll get to a point where exchanges are very, very similar to brokerage accounts, where you just get a 1089 of, "Here's your cost basis, here's your proceeds, here's what you report on your tax," and make it much easier for folks.   Chitra: Just as the industry is growing up, the tax piece will grow up, as well.   Jeff: Yup.   Chitra: Yeah. Great. Is there anything I haven't asked or anything really important, closing thoughts?   Jeff: One closing thought, just, I think it's good for everyone to remember that almost everything is a taxable event. If the question is, "Do I have to pay tax on this?" 9 times out 10, it's yes.   Chitra: Sadly.   Jeff: Yes.   Chitra: Thank you so much for joining us. Where can people learn more about you and find out more about the work that you're doing?   Jeff: Sure. Our website is neumeistercpa.com, that's N-E-U-M-E-I-S-T-E-R-C-P-A.com. We're a full-service accounting consulting firm, but we specialize in things like cryptos.   Chitra: Great. Thanks so much for joining us.   Jeff: All right, thank you.   Chitra: That's all for now. Join us again next time for another edition of Running with Unicorns. Until then, enjoy your crypto journey, unicorns.  

Many people have said that Dec. 25 is an old Roman holiday celebrating the Sun in the sky.  Did the Catholic Church co-opt this holiday for their own religious purposes, or are there reasons to believe Jesus might have been born in December?  Dr. Jeffrey Chadwick, New Testament scholar at BYU answers that question. https://youtu.be/klM391Ccs0I GT:  So do Catholics believe Jews was born in December? Jeff: Yes. GT:  Really? Jeff:  Well, you know what Christmas means? Christ's mass. They traditionally date Jesus' birth to December. GT:  I've always heard the Christmas came about because it was a pagan holiday of the Sun God, and it was December 25th. Was there some Roman [holiday].... Jeff:  Well, this is certainly true. December 25th was Sol Invictus in the Roman pagan notion. But the Roman Empire became Christian right, by the fourth century. Particularly when Constantine comes in there, Christianity becomes even the preferred religion. But long before that, the notion that Jesus had been born in early winter existed within Christianity. The problem, I think, is that they didn't know just when. The reason for this is that by the end of the second century, Christianity had become totally Gentile rather than Jewish, which was the way Christianity started out. We will talk further about early Catholic/Christian beliefs about Christmas.  Dr. Chadwick doesn't think it's a problem that Christians re-appropriated a pagan holiday.  What do you think?  Check out our conversation…. Did early Christians appropriate a pagan holiday for Christmas? Do Catholics really believe Jesus was born in December? Check out our other conversations about the first Christmas!  

Toby Mathis and Jeff Webb of Anderson Advisors are here to answer all sorts of tax-related questions that focus on everything from applications to forms and QuickBooks. Do you have a tax question? Submit it to Webinar@andersonadvisors.com. Highlights/Topics: Will income earned by lending money to real estate investors reduce Social Security benefits or increase taxes on them? Income vs. earned income; until full retirement age, benefits are reduced; when full retirement age, it doesn't matter what you make How do I get the 20% deduction from Trump's Tax Plan? The 199A Deduction is a 20% deduction on qualified business income, but you need a pass-through entity; QBI 20% deduction vs. 20% of taxable income are compared, and you get whichever is less When you make a contribution out of your own account to your LLC as a member, are you taxed on contributions? No. It’s a contribution to an entity that becomes your capital and money you can take back out tax-free, if you haven't used it to recognize losses What is the best business structure recommended against asset, structure, and personal protection? With any passive activity, use a passive entity - LLC taxed as a partnership/limited partner; whomever has control of entity decides what's distributed What is the best way to set up QuickBooks when I have a Wyoming Holding LLC and several other LLCs holding real estate in other states? Create one set of books with Wyoming LLC as the primary; do a classified income statement for other states What are the tax forms for 501c3? Use Form 1023 to apply to be an exempt charitable organization; yearly recording forms include 990-N If someone has rentals in their self-directed IRA, how are they impacted as UBIT - does it make a difference on the number/dollar amount? No UBIT, if it's a rental; UBIT is for an active business inside an IRA; passive income is almost always exempt Can I have recourse debt in a 401K or IRA? Can I have non-recourse debt? You can’t have recourse debt, but you can have recourse debt What are my options to re-distribute funds from one LLC in several entities to separate investments? You can always move it from one to another with no tax implication Can I write off costs for rehabbing out of the country? Yes. Worldwide profits; if it's income-producing property, you report it to the United States I lent money to a real estate flipper. She gave me a promissory note, but it wasn’t recorded with the deed of trust. Now, she is in default. Can I foreclose? Document it because you can’t foreclose until you file your secured interest Is there anything I can do to reduce my taxable income? Yes. There are lots of things you can do - make contributions to qualified retirement plans, charities, and C Corp I purchased a new computer that cost less than $2,500. Is that a straight expense in the current tax year or some weird depreciation thing? Section 179 deduction; you can buy up to $1 million and write it all off For all questions/answers discussed, sign up to be a Platinum member to view the replay! Resources U.S. Social Security Administration Trump’s Tax Plan 199A Deduction QuickBooks Tax-Wise Workshop 501c3 Unrelated Business Income Tax (UBIT) 990-T 990-N Section 179 Deduction 1244 Election Kiddie Tax Anderson Advisors Tax and Asset Prevention Event Toby Mathis Anderson Advisors   Full Episode Transcript: Toby: Hey, guys. This is Toby Mathis with Jeff Webb again. Jeff: Good afternoon. Toby: If you don't know, Jeff Webb's a tax manager here, and I am one of the partners. I'm not an accountant but I'm an attorney. Jeff is actually a CPA. This is Tax Tuesdays. If you've never been on Tax Tuesdays before, all we do is answer all sorts of questions. Let me see here whether I've got the right question field up. Look at that. We've got a bunch of people asking questions. Let's see. We'll get to all your questions, making sure you can hear us in the question and answer part. Just say, "Yes, I can hear you loud and clear," to make sure that we're getting through to everybody. If you do that, then we appreciate it. There we go. I'm getting a whole bunch of "loud and clear", "loud and clear", "loud and clear". All right, if you don't know the format if Tax Tuesday, it goes like this. We answer a whole bunch of questions. We answer the questions that people ask via the email that I'll be giving you at the end of the webinar, and we grab a whole bunch of them, and we just start answering them. If we can't answer the question or the question that you ask is too complicated, too specific, too long, then I grab it and kick it off to a staff or we answer it the following week, depending on how cool a question it is. That being kind of the overview, this is where we're at. We're going to go through these and we're going to make sure that we're answering all the questions. Let's see if I can actually make these slides advance. Look at that. That's weird. I didn't even know what that W there is. It's kind of cool. "Will the income I earned by lending my money to my real estate investors reduced my social security benefits or increased my taxes on them?" That's an interesting question. There's, "How do I get a 20% deduction?" I'm picking these literally from people's emails so don't yell at me for the typos. "When you make a contribution funds to your own account to your LLC as a member, are you taxed on contributions that you contribute to an LLC?" "What is the best structure–" and that is the weirdest thing I've ever had. "What is the best structure recommended against asset, structure and personal protection for a Multi-Family Home Investor acquiring and holding rental properties, especially if working–" and I'm going to go through each one of these. "What is the best way to set up QuickBooks when I have a Wyoming Holding LLC and several other LLCs holding real estate in various other states?" Those are our opening questions. We have a few more. We're going to go through a ton of them, and I'm already getting a bunch of questions on the Q&A portion. We will get to those but, first, we're going to knock these ones out. The first question: "Will the income earned by lending money to real estate investors reduce my Social Security benefits or increase my taxes on them?" The first thing is there's the benefit itself. In this particular question, I looked it up and I believe there were 61, so they're receiving Social Security benefits before they reach the full retirement age. Full retirement age varies between 65 and 67. The reason this is important is because, once you reach that age, it doesn't matter what you make. Until you reach that age, you will have your benefits reduced on what you're receiving. When you're pulling out Social Security early, 50 cents on the dollar once you get over $17,080.Of course, it's indexed for inflation, but it's a little bit over $17,000. I think this year it's $17,080 or something like that. What that means is, if you are lending money, then that would be counted as income. However, if you're under the full retirement age, they only count earned income. The question here is, "Until you're at full retirement age, will the income earned by lending money to real estate investors reduce my Social Security benefits or increase my taxes on them?" The answer is a big, resounding, "No." This will not hurt you in any way. Once you hit full retirement age, now we have to be worried about how much of your social security becomes taxable. When they look at your tax ability of the benefit, now we're looking at all sorts of income, everything that you make, and it's going to push it up. That's the one where it's not that you reduce the benefit but it becomes taxable. Jeff: Fairly quickly, additional income starts making your Social Security benefits taxable. They're never going to be more than–85% of your benefits are never going to be taxable. I'm saying this totally backwards. Toby: What it means is that the most they're ever going to tax your benefits is 85% of them. If you're getting $20,000 of benefit, the most you'll ever pay tax on is $17,000. You'll still get $3,000, tax-free. The sad part is you didn't get, really, a deduction when they took it out the first place. That's the old double tax that you hear about with Social Security. Anything else you want jumped into? This is kind of stuff. It makes your brain go numb so you're doing it right. You're actually asking good questions. Jeff: Just the matter of when you should take Social Security is such a huge question. Toby: Because you can start taking it. When is the earliest, is it 64? Jeff: I'm going to say 62, but maybe it's earlier depending on their age. Toby: It does depend on their age. There is a before-a-threshold and after-a-threshold. Now, I forget what the threshold is. What you do is you go to the Social Security Administration and you run your scenarios and they'll give them all to you, or you can contact us. We have folks we could send you out to that have software because it is complicated. Depending on what month you were born in and all that stuff, how many days–all of this gets factored in as to what's the earliest you could start receiving benefits. Once you start receiving the benefit, they let you receive that benefit only so long as your income is low and it's your earned income. If you're trying to get the benefit when you're 62 and you make too much money, you're going to lose a bunch of the benefits. If you start making–if you're 62, start pulling out the benefit and you have passive income, not that big of a deal; it doesn't reduce it so that's really cool. Enough of that. It makes my head hurt, Social Security. Do not rely on Social Security. There, I said it. Yeah, Social Security is one of those things that, when it was set up, the average life expectancy of people on Social Security was two years. It was really there to catch you if you're really old and didn't have any other benefits. Now, we use it almost like it's a retirement plan that's not what it was intended for. That's why it doesn't work to do it. Here's the next one. "How do I get the 20% deduction from Trump's Tax Plan?" First off, it's not Trump's Tax Plan. It's the Tax Cut and Jobs Act and it was passed by our wonderful Congress because, technically–though, they seem to forget this–Presidents don't write laws. Now that we got that out of the way, they did put this thing called a 199A Deduction, which is a 20% deduction on qualified business income from pass-through entities. Follow me here. The first thing we need to have–and I'm going to write these up–is we need to have a pass-through entity, and you can be an LLC taxed as–this is a 1065 that's partnership, a sole proprietor or as an S Corp. Those are your choices. Technically, it could also be a trust. Then, you look at other entities, S Corps and just flat out partnerships, including limited partnerships, all that fun stuff. It's passing through; it doesn't pay its own tax. Then, you need qualified business income. I'm just going to call it QBI, which just means income. Generally speaking, it's active income, but they also include real estate, if you are making money on real estate in which you participate in some fashion. The only type of real estate that's not included as far as we can tell–because they're still giving us regulations on it, but the proposed regulations make clear that real estate, rental real estates included, is if you have a commercial building and triple-net leases that you're giving out where you're not really taking on much of the risk, then they're not going to let you have the qualified business income. Then, they compare that qualified business income 20% deduction versus 20% of your taxable income, whichever is less. Why is this important? Because if I'm a sole proprietor–let's say I have $50,000 that I'm making–that I would get a $10,000-deduction under the QBI. Let's say that I take and contribute into my retirement plan–a husband-and-wife sole proprietor is still the same thing, and they both put in–what's a good number–let's just say $10,000. Then, my taxable income is actually $40,000 because I rode off–I made tax-deductible contributions into my IRA of $10,000 so I would take the lesser of that. Then, they do this wonderful thing, is they then say, "Well, if it's a special service company, we're going to put a cap on how much QBI you can actually make." It's not really QBI; it's actually your taxable income, and they say, "We'll only let you ride off so long as your taxable income is below a threshold." If you're single, that threshold is $157,500, and there's a phase-out for the next $50,000. To make your head spin, it goes from $157,000 to $207,500. That's the easiest way to look at it. If you're married, filing jointly, those numbers are $315,000 to $415,000. Jeff: What's an example of a special service? Toby: Special services are something that it is you and your skill that makes the money, and they use–it's going to be doctors, lawyers, accountants, engineers, real estate agents who are solo, somebody who–it's their skill so like a carpenter who doesn't have a bunch of staff. That's going to be a special service. If you get above those thresholds, you are done. Somebody's asking a question which is pretty interesting. A single-member LLC counts. You have a flow under you so that's when you're sole proprietor or just going under your tax return that's passed through entity so you're fine. The interesting here is that you can control your taxable income. Even on those thresholds–and when we teach this in the class, we actually go through a learning chart where we say, "If this, then this. If this, then this." If you're a special service, we just need to make sure that we can control your income, and the way you control your income is by splitting it with tax-free, tax-exempt or separately-taxable entities. Let me give you an example. If I have a C Corp and it makes a bunch of money, great, that's not income to me. I don't want to pay myself a whole bunch of money and make whatever my other business is that is or where I'm going to meet the threshold taxable because I'm losing that 20% deduction. Let's say I have $200,000 coming in. As an individual, I can get some donations and deductions into a retirement plan and I get myself underneath that $157,000 and I have another $200,000 in C Corp that I pay myself. If I leave the $157,000 as is and I don't take any money out of the C Corp, I'm going to get a 30-something thousand dollar deduction. It's just going to come off the top. It's a 20% deduction so almost like I spent. If I took the money out of the C Corp–and, by the way, that C Corp is a flat 21% tax rate now so it's going to pay 21% so it's not horrific. If I paid myself that money, I push my taxable income over the threshold, now I get 0 deduction on my qualified business income. That's why it's important. If it is not a special service, then those thresholds trigger something else. It takes us to an area where we can write off up to 50% of the W2 income or 25% of the W2 income for the business plus 2.5% of the assets. Jeff: No, you're right. I'm just jumping ahead of you. Toby: Yeah, so what we're looking at, then, is you better have a regular business that actually has salaries. If you, for example, as a sole proprietor, single, are making–what would be a good example–$200,000 and you're over the threshold, you're phasing out, you'd have to go to the second test. You're over the 157 and the second test is now pushing you at 50% of W2 wages, and you have zero so your deduction is going to be zero. You're going to get literally nothing. You might get a few dollars because you're not quite at the 207, which is the top line of the actual phase-out so you'd be phased out about 90% plus of the benefit. Now, let's say you converted that sole proprietorship to an S Corp and, instead, you paid yourself a salary, so same situation, $200,000. Let's say I paid you $75,000 of salary. Then, the QBI or the monies that's flowing through is actually the net income and net profit, so you'd subtract the 75 off. It would be $125,000. You compare 20% of that number, which I should grab the calculator, whatever that number is. Jeff: It'd be 25,000. Toby: Yeah, 25,000, and we would compare it to one-half of the W2 income, which would be 37,500. You'd get the lesser of the two. You'd get a $25,000-deduction just because of the type of entity. That's the one I have to do. Somebody just said, "I have almost 300K in real estate and other income. Is there anything I can do?" A single person? Yeah, there's something you can do because, remember, it depends on whether you're special service and then it depends on the business, and there's one last thing: It always comes down to your taxable income. "What other ways can I use to control my taxable income?" The most obvious is I split it with a C Corp, I give it to charity–and it could be my charity–or I deduct it by putting it into a tax-deferred retirement plan. For example, same situation, I'll use the $200,000 and they do a 401K. They put a husband and wife each–they're under 50. They each contribute 18,500–or, actually, the example I used was a single person so I would have to say I put 18,500 and in, and they get a 25% deduction on the 75,000. They would put in–again, I'm using crazy numbers so what would that be? About $18,750 or whatever that is–around under $19,000. I can put, in essence, about $37,000 right into the 401K, and that reduces my taxable income. The taxable income goes from 200 down to almost the threshold, and now I don't have to worry about it. It makes my life so much easier. I'm just going to get a nice big, fat deduction and I'm happy as a clam. That's how this stuff works, but if you don't do it before the year ends, you're toast. This is going to be my–this is why you need to have some sort of somebody doing tax planning. How do I get the 20% deduction from the new tax act? Very deliberately. You make sure that you have the income flowing under your return and then you make sure that, if there's a disqualifying factor that would cause you to lose it, that you look and say, "What's better? To just walk away from it and not worry about it or would I be better to take a couple of actions to allow myself to take advantage of the deduction?" It's a freebie, guys. If I make $20,000 in real estate, that rental real estate–that's my net after all my depreciation–I get a $4,000-deduction. I'm only recognizing 16,000 under this taxable income so that's a nice little benefit especially if I'm a high-income person so that's what I'd be looking at. Jeff, do you want to do this one because I'm […] barding the answers again? Jeff: No, that's alright. "When you make a contribution out of your own account to your LLC as a member, are you taxed on contributions that you contribute to the LLC?" No, actually, you're not. That is a contribution to an entity that becomes your capital, your owner's equity–we can call it a lot of things–your owner's capital in that company. That's actually money that you can take back out also tax-free assuming that you haven't used it up to recognize losses or maybe other things like that. Toby: We get that a lot. I'll give you a real-life example. Some guys were doing a syndication on apartment buildings and they were telling people, "Hey, we're going to return your capital out of the profits and you're not going to have to pay any tax on the money that you receive up to your investment." I said, "Hey, that's not really the case." Here's how it works: I can always get back my contribution, and it's tax-neutral; it means nothing. If the company makes zero, no profit, it can always give me back my money and I pay no tax, but if the company makes money, I'm taxed on my portion of that gain no matter what even if they're giving me extra. I was like–what they were doing was they were saying, "Here's a little thing. We'll make some profit. We'll just give you your money back. You want to pay tax on it?" I was like, "No, that's not how it works. You actually have to pay tax on the profit in proportion to your ownership, and it's a little bit funky." Jeff: This is a case that, sometimes, we see where a client will tell us, "I had deposits of $100,000 into my business," and what they fail to tell us is that 50,000 of it was their own money. We want to make sure that we're able to differentiate what the owners are putting into the company versus what income they're making in the company. Toby: There's a couple of questions. Somebody says, "My head is spinning." We do record this. If you're platinum, you're going to get a recording of it in your little platinum area. Somebody asks, "Is this pre-recorded?" No, it's not. We're doing it live but I'm answering the questions that people have emailed me first and, yes, we have about 50 questions that are in the queue that we're going to go through here in a second. Jeff: We don't have a three-second delay or anything? Toby: No, I don't think so. I could give you a 10-second delay. All right, "What is the best business structure recommended against asset, structure and personal protection?" I don't know what that means. I'm going to assume they mean to protect the business–for a Multi-Family Home Investor acquiring and holding rental properties, especially if working as a team member with other investors? Here's what I'm going to say: Anytime you have a passive activity–that is, when you buy the property or the cash flow and the appreciation–you're going to want to use a passive entity, meaning an LLC taxed as a partnership or a limited partner. Don't do anything else. That's it. There's maybe some really weird exceptions but I'm going to say, 99% of the time, you're going to end up using an LLC, and it's either going to be disregarded even if you have other people in or it's going to be a partnership. If anybody does anything differently, they're doing some weird stuff. If you have other investors, then it depends on your relationship with those investors. I'm not going to going to get into securities, Reg Ds and all that but, generally speaking, you're going to have it taxed as a partnership, but the most important consideration is always going to be control, who has control of that entity, because that's who decides what's distributed. That partnership agreement or the operating agreement of the LLC is really going to be important. You do not want to do this stuff half-arsed. You want to make sure that you're actually really addressing this stuff. At Anderson, we tend to be very protective of the manager, meaning we want you to have control. If it's your project, we don't want people to force you to do stuff and, on the flip side, if you're investing and you're a client, we're always going to say, "You don't want to be forced to kick in more capital against your will." Those are the things we always look at. Where does that one go? Here we go. "What is the best way to set up QuickBooks when I have a Wyoming–" and this is going to be so you, Jeff, because Jeff loves QuickBooks. "What is the best way to set up QuickBooks when I have a Wyoming Holding LLC with several other LLCs holding real estate in various other states?" I'm going to draw this. There's my Wyoming LLC. It's either going to be a 1065 or disregarded, and it holds all these cute little LLCs in other states. Let's say this is Texas LLC, Washington LLC, Nevada LLC, Georgia LLC, and they're all going to flow up to that Wyoming. I want to keep my books straight because, if you know QuickBooks, they will sell you QuickBooks for this one, this one and this one. You'll end up with four sets of QuickBooks and you'll drive yourself crazy. What do you do, Jeff? Jeff: Here's what we like to do: We like to create one set of books with the Wyoming LLC at the top being the primary set of books. Then, what we do is what we call a classified income statement where each of these four LLCs below the Georgia, Nevada, Washington and Texas where they're all kind of their own set of books within your Wyoming LLC books. All this income is going to flow from those bottom four up to the top one anyway and, while we need to keep the entities separate so we can report them that way, ultimately, what we're reporting is what's coming through the whole kit and caboodle. Toby: Yeah, we only need to worry about setting up QuickBooks for this guy right here, and then we set up these guys as classes. All that means is we have one set of books. Jeff: Yeah. You can still pull an income statement for your Georgia LLC or your Texas LLC to see what's just in that but, all in all, you still have one set of books. It makes it easier and you don't have all these inter-company transfers that you have to track. Toby: Oh my god. I'll tell you, we're horrible on that. He's giving me the look. See, here's the problem, is if you have different companies with different sets of books, you've got to close out the previous sets of books and then open up the new company. It's a process and it takes a few minutes and it's really annoying when you're trying to enter stuff into it. It's going to save you a whole bunch of time to use one set. Jeff: Yeah, then you don't run into things like, "Well, I transferred money from Georgia, the taxes that I did it, I record it in both companies." When you record them on one, you end up re-recording it in both. Toby: Yeah, and there's some fun stuff. Some of them just ask for a basic QuickBooks question, jump in the line. It's hard to set up classes in QuickBooks, not horribly, but if you don’t want to learn–QuickBooks is one of those things where you're going to spend some time with it. You just have a bookkeeper do it. Anderson does that if you want. All right. If you have questions–you guys, I know you do because there's a ton of them already in the little queue here. Here's how it works: If you want to ask a more detailed question, if you have a question that you didn't hear answered on the webinar, you can just email them on in to webinar@andersonadvisors.com, and, that way, we can put it in that queue and we can answer it just like we just did. We're going to break those out. Those will be separate little videos, each one of those, so that you get your answer. Somebody was saying, "My head was spinning about 199A." You can go back and listen to that. Better yet, you can come to some of our other webinars or come, actually, to the Tax-Wise Workshop and we go through this stuff. Spend some time with us. If you invest a little bit of time in taxes, it will pay off in spades. Other questions–some people just answered this stuff. "Can you go over the tax forms for 501c3? Jeff: There's a couple of forms for the 501c3. To apply the BF 5O1c3, there's what's called the Form 1023. It's the application to be an exempt charitable organization. Then, there's several different yearly recording forms. The 990 is the primary one where you report, among other things, what your income was, what your balance sheet looks like, your plan, your purpose, who you've dealt with. What were you going to say? Come on. Toby: Basically, if you're making less than $50,000 in your 501c3, you're doing a 990 post-note card. You're just doing a real basic here. Literally, it looks like a postcard. Jeff: They don't do that anymore. Toby: I thought they're still– Jeff: All these old people still call it postcards, but it's a… Toby: They do that in the 10… Jeff: But it's a 990N and it's filed electronically. Toby: Yeah, I know but it's the same thing. Jeff: It's still close. Okay. Toby: It's a postcard. Oh, my god. Yeah, you do it electronically now but it's really simple. You go above that, then you're going to be filing a little more detail. You get about 250, you're filing very detailed. Never do it yourself. Just hire an accountant to do it, and those guys–we do them. They're not horrifically complicated unless you have a huge void that everybody's taking money. You go American Red Cross, you can go look at the actual tax forms that everybody files because they're all public record. You can go in there and take a look at anybody and see just how complicated it is. What you'll realize is that the more the stuff they're doing, the more complicated it gets, and not doing ton it is pretty simple. We have ones that are $5 million non-profits and it's a few pages. Then, you have ones that are $1 million but they've got everybody and their mother with their hands in the thing, and you're doing a lot of reporting. That one might be more complicated. If you're a church, you don't file anything. If you're religious and you're a religious organization, you don't file anything; you file zero tax forms. Jeff: When you have an accountant do these 990s for you, they're going to ask you a lot of questions because there's a lot of questions on the form that they don't have the answer to, basically about what it is the non-profit does and things like that. Toby: All right. "If someone has rentals in their–" basically, again, if you have those tax forms, this is one other thing, is that's the tax compliance on an annual basis. If you're setting up a 501c3, you are doing–more than likely, 501c3 is an application called a 1023. If you're doing a 501C6 or some of these others, that's a 1024. Jeff: Wow, I'm impressed. Toby: Yeah, sorry. It's stuck in my head. Those are the applications for exempt status. Your business, your non-profit, is in existence and it's considered exempt from Day 1. Even though you haven't gotten your exemption approved, you actually have 28 or 29 months to get approved, and it relates back to the day that you started. You can actually do a 501c3 and be up and running in a matter of weeks if you want to. All right, from Lisa: "If someone has rentals in their self-directed IRA, how is it impacted as far as unrelated business income tax (UBIT) and does it make a difference on the number or dollar amount?" You want to do this one or would you like me to? Jeff: Why don't you do this one? Toby: All right. Self-directed IRA and it has real estate? You have no UBIT if it's just rental. That's not unrelated business income tax. Unrelated business income tax is when you're doing an active business inside an exempt organization, inside an IRA, or church, or something else, and you're running a mini-mart then they tax you on it because it's unrelated business income so not related to your exempt purpose so they tax you on it. Passive income's always going to be–I shouldn't say "always"; it's almost always exempt. I guess there's possible–if you have some royalty stuff, it's possible, if you're advertising, that the exempt organization tax, but for your IRA for rentals, don't worry about it. Here's what you worry about when you're doing an IRA with rentals: It's usually the case–this is what we've seen–is that people will oftentimes want to lever that real estate. In an IRA, you have something called–I'm just going to blank on it–unrelated debt financed income. There we go, UDFI. Unrelated debt financed income means–or just call it debt finance income–the portion of the profits that are coming from the debt. If I have a piece of property, I have a 50% loan on it, then 50% of its income is going to be taxable to the IRA. It's not allowed to have that type of loan and not pay tax on it. A 401K is allowed to have that type of loan, and it doesn't pay tax on it. It's one of those weird things where you're like, "Hey, should I be an IRA or 401K?" More often than not in our world, you're going to want to be the 401K. It has different rules, and one of the big ones is the ability to use debt. Now, here's something for you. I think I had poll questions on this. This is fun. I'm going to send a poll out to see whether you guys are listening. You guys can answer this, and what it is, "Can I have recourse debt in a 401K or IRA?" Let's see about that. Isn't this kind of cool? Jeff: It is cool. Toby: We're going to see whether or not you can have recourse debt in a 401K or IRA. For those of you who don't know what recourse debt, recourse means, "I can go after you. I have recourse, and I can go–" basically, a personal guarantee, personal guarantor. We got a lot of people voting. I will share the results with you once we're there. Jeff: What if Lisa is flipping instead of renting in an IRA? Toby: Then, we don't have any cases on it. Jeff: Great. Toby: What we always say is do five at a max. Here's the thing: If you disqualify an IRA, the whole thing's disqualified. What I want to do is if I'm flipping in a self-directed IRA, I want to make sure only that money is in that IRA so if I have a disqualifying event, it's only for that one little IRA. So, I may have two or three IRAs. Good news: People are listening. That's always good news. We have about–50% of you guys voted. I'm going to go ahead and close this thing in about a few seconds. Let's see. There, I closed it and now I'm going to share it with you. Do you want me to tell you the answer? You cannot have recourse debt. 36% of you guys just disqualified your plans, and you have a 10% penalty plus it's all taxable. Sorry to say that you just destroyed your plan, but you cannot have recourse. This is half the fun. What's the next question I could ask you? I could throw up another poll at you. Let's see. Get out of there. Let me see if I can do this. All right, what's the next one? Here's a better one: Now that you know you can't have recourse debt, I'm going to launch a new poll. "Can I have non-recourse debt in an IRA or 401K?" This is where accountants and tax lawyers have– Jeff: Disagreements? Toby: No, this is where it's so much fun. Are you kidding? Let's see. Somebody's saying, "No." What is non-recourse? Non-recourse means you can't hold the person responsible. There's no personal guarantor. You can only go after the property so the property is truly asset-based lending. There's nobody on the hook for that loan if it goes south. A typical non-recourse loan in a plan–this is kind of cheap because it's going to give you the answer–is they're going to look at the other plan assets and so they're going to secure the other plan assets. They're going to make sure that they're not over-leveraged. In other words, they're not going to give you a 99% loan to value; they're going to give you a 60% loan to value or 50% loan to value. We'll see if you guys still get the answer even though I just basically gave it to you. This is fun. I'm just going to stop this one and I'm going to share it because the numbers are pretty done. It looks like 86% of you said, "Yes." Can I have non-recourse debt? 86% of you are correct. You can have recourse debt. Here's the trick: In an IRA, that non-recourse debt creates debt finance income so you have to pay tax on the portion that you're making but it doesn't disqualify your plan. In a 401K, you do not pay the debt finance income, and some of you guys are not too pleased with me for that, but I'm getting giggles out of it. That's enough with polls. I could have polls all day long and we would have a lot of fun. Last one: "I hold some assets in LLC–"and, by the way, this is the last one from people that have shot it in but it says, "You don't pay tax until withdrawal, correct?" No, if you have debt finance income, you're paying it in the year in which the debt finance income–you actually file a 990 T. You actually have to report it. "I have some assets in an LLC that is a day-trading entity." You're brave. "If this generates sizable profits–" I just love traders. "What options are out there to re-distribute funds from one LLC in several entities to the separate investments?" You can always move–if it's yours, it's like–an LLC is a safe so I can always move it from one safe to another, no tax implication. This is one of the questions we had earlier. I can always put money in, take it out. Somebody was talking about an opportunity zone. The opportunity zone's awesome. It's where you take capital gains and invest them in the opportunity zone. It's actually called the growth opportunity zone, and you defer the tax on that income. The max amount you can defer that tax is until 2025 right now. Then, you get a portion of that as non-taxable. Then, the growth–if you leave it in the opportunity zone for 10 years, all that growth and the gains on the investment itself are tax-free, and that's pretty interesting. Growth opportunities, we'll be talking about that as they give us more information. Somebody says, "Can you take the poll down?" I thought I did. I'll make sure polls, hide. There we go. Sorry about that, guys. Everybody's telling me, "Flip off the poll." I'm flipping it off. I like your opportunity zone discussion, and think about a bank, and loan out funds to other LLCs you use. You could do that. Then, it's interest unless it's all you. In which case, you don't charge yourself interests. "I am told that funds in an LLC are much like funds in a savings account. I pay taxes on the gains my funds make, and funds can be withdrawn at any time." That is true as long as it's disregarded or taxed as a partnership. I want to make sure that we're very clear. LLCs that are partnerships are disregarded. Yes, you can do that. If it's an LLC taxed as a corporation or LLC taxes in S Corp, little bit different. An S Corp probably has a huge difference. Jeff: Yeah. You can even pull securities out–even if it's a partnership–pull securities out and put them somewhere else. Like what Toby's saying, if it's an S Corporation or corporation, if you pull securities out of a corporation, you have to recognize gain immediately. Toby: It sucks. Appreciated assets is considered wages, right? Use an example here. Jeff: We had a client who had a couple of $100,000 of securities in a corporation, wanted to move it somewhere else, and we tried to explain to him that if he pulls securities out that are now worth 250 and he's only got a basis of $100,000, he's going to have capital gains of $125,000 in that corporation. The corporation will pay gains and then, for you to take it out, that's got to come from somewhere else, so either a salary, roan repayments or dividends. It doesn't work out well. Toby: No Bueno. The other one is people that real estate in an S Corp and then they need to take it out to refile it or something. All that appreciation is wages. It's horrific and so we have oftentimes say, "Hey, if you're going to do this S Corp, it's cool." The capital gains still flow down to you; it's just that you can't take it out. You've got to leave it in there. Jeff: Can we  re-running into that more and more where the banks are running to take it out of the LLCs and stuff? Toby: They got horribly hosed during the downturn of people doing weird stuff. What happened is I would do a financing in an entity. Say I'm the owner, and then I would sell Jeff my ownership and the entity and the bank had no idea that I'm no longer the guy that they were dealing with that they gave the loan to in their mind and had sold his interests. They had no idea. One day, Jeff comes back in and says, "By the way, I'm the owner of this LLC, not the guy that you loaned the money to." No Bueno. They don't like that. All right, we got a lot of questions to go through so if you have questions, you can always email them in. I'm going to start going out through these things, and we have questions from almost an hour ago. People were asking questions before we even started. "I did a cash-out refinance from my residence to invest in private lending or to buy rentals. California only allows 150,000 to deduct interest expense for residence." That's actually the new federal rule. "For the portion that is more than 750, can I deduct the interest as investment expense?" All right, so here's the rule–and, Jeff, I'm [...] barding, but I deal with this stuff all the time. Your new limit is–unless you owned your house prior to–during 27 and perhaps during the first quarter of 2018 if your loan was already in process before December 15th of 2017, don't try to remember this stuff; just know that if you're in that weird period, you may qualify, then you're up to a million, but it has to be for acquisition indebtedness. Acquisition indebtedness means, "I bought the house," or, "I improved the house." That's for the mortgage person to be deductible on your Schedule A, which is your itemized deduction. If you're using the money for something else, then it has to be deductible on that something else. For example, if I am buying rental real estate, then the interest–you'd be writing off the interest on your Schedule A, essentially, against the income from that rental real estate. You are no longer writing off your mortgage interest personally as the individual residing in it; you are now writing it off as part of an investment. Anything you wanted to add on that? Jeff: No. If we're talking about buying a piece of investment property like you're just going out and buying more land, hoping that it'll go up in value, then it would be considered investment interests and go back on Schedule A. Typically, we want to keep it–if it's in a business interest or rental property, something like that, we want to keep it there. Toby: Again, the Canadians have been dealing with this for a lot longer than us guys. You cannot write off interest if it's not for your home in Canada unless it was used for an investment. People actually have to go re-file their houses, they get all the cash they could, pay down their house, re-file it so they could show that they used it for an investment so they could actually write off the interest. I think it was called Scotts transactions. It's weird. Hey, I'm not Canadian. This is another question: "Say I deducted a newsletter subscription in 2017 but received a refund for it in 2018. Do I need to add this back as income in 2018 or no?" If you wrote it off and it means your basis is zero, give you the money back, what does that sound like? Jeff: Income. Toby: Income. It is income. At the same time, I see people saying, "Hey, what if I reimburse myself from my cell phone out of two companies?" Now, each reimbursement represents–I said, "Well, you can reimburse yourself up to your expense. Anything above that is income so it becomes taxable." Fun stuff. Yes, you would report it, but only–your cash basis tax first. You report it in the year that you received the money back. "You've saved me so much money. I call y'all my friends." I love that when I get stuff like that. That's not really a question but I'm going to repeat it because it's better than, "Flip off the poll." Not that I had too many of those, but I had a few. "Can I write off costs for rehabbing out of the country?" This sounds like something for Jeff. Can you write off? US taxes. Jeff: Yeah, you do have investment in another country. Toby: Worldwide profits, baby. Yes. Jeff: If it's income-producing property, you're going to be reporting that to the United States. Any expenses you have on that property will go towards that also. Toby: If you're rehabbing a property, it sounds like dealer activity and active business. I may be little interest–I probably want to be looking at structures in the Bahamas if that's where it is. I'd be looking at something that's taxable there so you don't get into treaties and all sorts of fun stuff. "Do I have to pay $800 off the top to the franchise tax board when we start our corporation?" Jeff: No, California has an exemption to corporations that are first year only. Toby: Yeah, and that $800–this is, if you like tax cases, there's Veritas 1, there's Veritas 2, there's Northwest Energetic Services, there's Bakersfield Mall, and they're all versus your friendly–what is it called? Not the franchise tax. No, it's whatever. I forget what they're called. Jeff: We know what it's called. Toby: Yeah. Anyway, I'll remember it as soon as I could. I'm trying to think about it, but they keep suing the Board of Equalization, the BoE. It's $800 and they say that's the minimum tax, but they say, really, it's a fee because if it was a tax, then it'd be an unconstitutional tax because it's not attached to the income. They keep trying to call it a fee. They lose and then they change it a little bit and they lose again. That's just an aside. California is kind of evil. "We live in Washington. We have a Nevada C Corp which fully owns a watch and LLC and employs the kids. What are the recommended strategies to optimize for college tuition?" Wow, so you're doing a great thing. You are going to run them through payroll. When you're applying for things like scholarships, if it's going to be based on income, you're going to show that income. You're going to show those returns, but those kids should–most of that income is going to probably be underneath the standard deduction. Right now, it's $12,000. They're going to pay zero and they're going to pay very little on any amount over that. Plus, if you're smart, you're putting some of that money in a Roth IRA and they're never going to pay tax on that. It's smart to do this with your kids. If I paid tuition out of my tax bracket, it's coming out of my highest tax bracket. If I'm in the highest tax bracket, that's 37%. If my kids pay for their tuition and are working for the company, and they have to do something, then they pay at a third tax bracket, which, quite often, is zero. I do this with my own daughter. Last year, I think we paid $500 in taxes total for the year when it cost me $8,000 if I was doing it, but she has to do something. She has to actually work for the company and do stuff for the company. Other stuff you could do to optimize is dump it into–defer it into a retirement plan. If you want to do a 401K, they can put the first 18,500 of their income and they can defer it. You're still reporting it. I'm not sure it'll have an impact on scholarships or not. I have not seen it have much of an impact, but that's what I'd be doing, is the benefits far outweigh anything with this on the scholarship side. It is huge. Here's one: "I lent money to a real estate flipper. She gave me a promissory note, but it was not recorded with the deed of trust. Now, she is in default. Can I foreclose?" When you loan money to a flipper with no deed of trust, that's called a gift. I'm just kidding. You need to make sure that you're documenting it. You cannot foreclose until you actually file your secured interest. You got to have it filed and then, yes, you can actually start foreclosure proceedings if you want, if they don't pay it. You definitely want to make sure that, when you're giving notes–there's something called "first in time, first in right". You want to make sure you know it's recorded and you have your deed of trust against that house. Otherwise, somebody else could go slap theirs on first. There's also places where they get priority. In Nevada, for example, the HoAs get super liens. They actually step in front of the primary lender. It sounds weird but it's true. You want to make sure that you're documenting your loan and covering yourself as best you can, make sure that you're getting a personal guarantee and, if they have any other assets, you may want to slap a lien on those, too. All right, "With a new company, there's quite a lot of expense reimbursements. Since I don't have a lot of revenue yet, I haven't paid it back. Is it okay to carry it over a year or should I go ahead and pay it back even though I'm still in the red?" Jeff, this sounds like you unless you're zoning out there. She has a new company, she has lots of expenses, she doesn't have any money that she's made yet, so should they pay it back, carry it forward? "Can I pay myself, reimburse myself in the future year?" The answer is yes, you could reimburse yourself whenever. The question really becomes, "Do I want to capture all my startup expenses in the first year?" Jeff: Yeah, I think you do. You want to capture as many expenses as possible even if you're not getting directly reimbursed right away. Toby: Yeah, you have two choices whenever you fund a company. You can fund it with your cash and then it's going to have a loss and it's going to carry that loss forward if it's a C Corp. If it's an S Corp, you can actually take that loss. I've contributed $20,000. That's my basis and it loses 20,000 and, technically, I'd have a $20,000-loss with an S Corp. Usually, we're seeing this in C Corps, and you just carry it is a payable and a receivable. It's payable to you, you would say, "Hey, it owes me some money. It's kind of like this." I always use Krispy Kreme in my examples. I go out for Anderson and I bring in 12 dozen Krispy Kreme for a meeting or something, and the others say, "Hey, I'll pay you back but we don't have the money right now." It doesn't mean that it goes away; it means that I'm sitting there, waiting for them to pay me back. If they pay me back in two years, all it means is they can't write that off as a deduction until they pay me back so they're not going to have a loss if I'm carrying it as an IOU. If I give them the money to buy the doughnuts and they buy the doughnuts, they get the loss right away even though they haven't returned my money to me. They could return that money to me at any time. For me, it's always going to be tax-neutral. "Do I need to be on payroll with my real estate income or can I just take distributions from my LLC?" This is regarding Trump's 20% deduction on the plan. If it's investment real estate, you never have to take a seller as long as it's rental real estate. If it's flipping and it's in an S Corp, then you would have to take some salary if you're taking distributions. I don’t want to twist it. This sounds like it's just an LLC with rental property. You do not have to take it. The 20% is for 2018 onwards. If they think that it has a sunset clause, the end of 2025. Is it the end of 2025 that it ends? Jeff: Yeah. Toby: Yeah, so 2025. Here's a really long one. Boy, this is a really long one. Let me see if I can condense this. "I have a Wyoming LLC that is the sole member of a second LLC that is disregarded entity. I funded the Wyoming with 8,500 and the Wyoming funded the other bookkeeping QuickBooks balance sheet shows an owner equity 100% of 16,500. This is offset a balance sheet with capital contribution. While this does end up with net equity of 85, it gives the impression of the equity, which is incorrect. Is there a different way of handling?" Do you see what they're doing? Jeff: This is what we call–anytime you have combined financials or tax returns, you're going to have a–you may have a payable from one to the other where you've lent money to the other company, but when you do the combined financial or tax return, this is what you call an eliminating entry. If you lent $8,500 to one, those two entries are going to offset each other and it's going to be zero on your tax return. Toby: He's looking at it and saying, "Hey, they took the eight that I put into the second and added it to the 8,500 that I put in the first," and it's only 8,500 and then 8 went to the second LLC. Jeff: Yeah, I think you just need to clarify that it was the same money that– Toby: We're doing it and we'll take a look at it. We'll grab that name and, when we can, I'll print this out. "Can SMLLC, single-member LLC, disregard an entity under an MMLLC, which is a multi-member LLC taxed as a partnership, be converted to a single, multi-member LLC taxed as if–" you guys are killing me, "And would the tax changes be implemented?" What you're really saying, Billy, is, "Can I spin off a single-member LLC, make it into a multi-member LLC and change it to an S Corp?" The answer is yes. We just have to make sure that we follow the S Corp rules, which means there's got to be natural persons owning it, resident aliens–if it's somebody from out of the country, that they reside in the United States in certain trusts and even certain single-member LLCs. All right, to the question about–this refers to qualified business income. Sorry for lack of a better–no, Janet, you've already got it. "Since rental real estate is included for the 20%, are you also required to be a rep for that to be true?" No. You automatically get it. "High-tech network engineer, does it qualify as special services?" If you're not a network engineer and it's just you, then I would say probably yes. If you have a company and it's not so much you but your company has its own–like it's lots of people and it's just known, then the answer is no. Then, you're not. Jeff: Yeah, there were some specific carve-outs. I think the architects got a carve-out of this, but there's a few industries that have been specifically exempted from those specialized industries. Toby: I'm not sure but software engineer–I would say that if it's just you, chances are going to be under the special services. "When I file taxes, the taxes for the rental property show up on my tax showing a schedule form that is Schedule E. I almost $300,000 with my real estate and other income as a single woman." I think we already talked about this one. "Is there anything I can do to reduce my taxable income?" Yes, Janet, you can make contributions to qualified retirement plans. You can make contributions to charities, including your own. You can make contributions to C Corp if it has a business relationship. There are lots of things you can do or, if you have anybody that you need to pay salaries to like kids or somebody that's working with you, that would be something else you could do to lower the taxable income. "If you were writing out another slide, it's not showing up on my computer." Sorry, Sir. I think that's where all they go. "What about an IOL as a tax-deferred compensation for my property management income?" That would not work. An IOL is tax-neutral although you can do tax-deferred compensation where it's taxable to the entity and it's not taxable to you under certain circumstances. If I do tax-deferred income like, "Hey, I'm taking deferred compensation," I need to be at a losing. Usually, non-compete is going to be the thing that makes it work. We use these especially in the non-profit world where somebody says, "I don't want to be paid; I want to work, but I do want to get paid eventually for all the work I'm doing now. Rather than pay me this year, pay me when I'm 65 and maybe I wipe it out or not, but as long as I have a non-compete with that–" it's saying, "Hey, basically, if you go work for somebody else in a competing industry, you lose all that deferred compensation." You should be good. "I purchased a new computer that cost less than $2,500. Is that a straight expense in the current tax year or some weird depreciation thing?" Dean, it's called a Section 179 deduction. You can buy up to $1 million, you're good. You can write it all off. Otherwise, that would be depreciated. They also have 100% bonus depreciation, so we're going to catch it no matter what. Bonus depreciation is, if it's less than a 15-year property, you can write it off this year. You're not required to. Somebody says, "Is 199A or that 20% a 20% tax deduction or a 20% reduction?" No, it's a 20% deduction against your qualified business income. The net effect could be much more than 20% depending on your tax bracket. If you're not in a high tax bracket, then the net effect won't be huge. If I'm in the highest tax bracket in a state that's taxing me where I'm at 50%, that 20% deduction could be worth a ton. It could be worth significant amounts especially if I'm in a company that's not a specialized service and I meet the requirements. I could have hundreds and thousands of dollars of qualified business income being exempted, and that could be worth hundreds and thousands of dollars to me from a tax standpoint. We already did this one. Somebody who had their spinning left. You can go in bite-sized pieces, guys. We're going to break these things down, and I understand that we're going through fast, but that's half the fun. We're not dwindling around here. "My self-directed IRA received a K1 for net rental loss for a passive investment of $50,000. Do I need to file a 990 T to show loss? Does the IRA custodian sign the return or can I sign?" Jeff: Here's what happens: If your IRA is a partner in a partnership, that partnership is required to issue a K1 to all of its partners. That doesn't mean you have to do anything with the K1 in your IRA. You're not going to recognize any taxable income until you actually start taking money out of the IRA, especially since this is a rental property we're talking about. Toby: Cool. Hey, this is a really good one. By the way, if you ever do a 990 T and it says self-directed IRA, your custodian does have to sign, and they like to charge you for that. "401K, 401K." "I have a C Corp with accumulated losses and would rather close it than repurpose it. Is there a way to direct the loss of my personal taxes? Is it possible?" The answer is yes. It's called a 1244 election. It should have been made when you issued your stock. If Anderson did your C Corp, we already did that because I do it with every single corporation. You can then write off as a single person up to $50,000 or up to $100,000 if married, filing jointly, and then it could be used to offset even your W2 income. Jeff: Going back to one of the earlier questions, this is one reason we want to start recognizing reimbursements and stuff as early as possible to establish those debts to you early on. Toby: Yeah, I had this happen and we actually had–the one time this was ever audited was because this accountant refused to give him a $67,000-deduction. It was one of our clients who was a trader who was ready to launch and go into his business and then his employer made him an offer he couldn't refuse and gave him a whole bunch of our money. He took a $67,000-loss. He had never made a dollar in the corporation. We went under audit. We won. Yay. It took two seconds because it was a single letter and we gave him the law, and it's a statute. The IRS is just a policing agency. If there's a statute that's clear, they don't sit there and fight with it. I think it was a $38,000-reimbursement–what do you call it–refund. Awesome first-timer. We love first-timers. Thank you for joining us. "I want to receive an invite, a reminder to a different email." We can give you that. You can always use this when you register for the Tax Tuesday. Just put in your other email. "Interested doing sandwich lease options. What is the best business structure and what document can you provide to protect myself from sellers suing me if a tenant or buyer stops paying rent or if a tenant or buyer trashes the home?" That's a tough one. You're literally leasing it and then re-leasing it with the right to buy. Let me think about this one. How am I going to do this? I'm going to be doing that through an entity. The way you protect yourself is to keep very little amounts of asset in that entity so that if you're sued, it's not you; it's the entity itself, and the entity doesn't have much to lose. That's a tough one. I tend to stay away from stuff like that. I want to buy the property and then you do a lease option in an LLC. Jeff: Make sure you have insurance. Toby: Yup, make sure you have insurance, too. That could happen so the tenant trashes the place and somebody else says, "Hey, wait a second." That's why there's always risk. What you do is you just keep it to a low. "Is it hard to set up classes in QuickBooks? Does Anderson do this?" It's not hard and, yes, we do it. "How long does it take to set up a class in QuickBooks?" Jeff: No, you'd have to ask bookkeepers. Toby: Jeff's such an accountant. Yes, it's actually very easy. Jeff: Actually, the bookkeepers are really good at it. They do it all the time. Toby: It's literally all you're doing, is setting up another class. It's almost like a revenue class so you might have revenue that comes in from plumbing and then selling products in your plumbing business and then, "Hey, I have one that's a consulting," and that might be another class. It literally takes two seconds. "What if the Wyoming LLC owns a C Corp which owns an LLC?" I don't know what that means, but what we mean is–I imagine for the 199A. We're just going to look at it is the C Corp owns an LLC that's not going to be qualified for the 20% deduction. The LLC that owns the C Corp, if it's doing other activities, might qualify for the deduction. Here's the problem: In the qualified business, the part I didn't tell you about is what is qualified business income. Dividends, interest, capital gains are not included in that definition so if you're issuing interest from a C Corp to the LLC that flows under your return, you're not going to be getting the 20%. "If you set up QuickBooks with a single entity and use class as a separate income, can you also print a balance sheet by class?" Jeff: Yes, you can do it if the balance sheet is also classified. Toby: Okay. See, we're good. We're getting there. We only have about 200 more questions to go. I'm just teasing you. We've gone through about three-quarters of them. "What is Jeff's last name?" Webb. "I have a rental company. This will be my first year doing taxes. What can I expect to pay on my capital gains? What are some determining factors?" Isaac, if you're a rental company and you're selling–like if you have capital gains, it's going to be depending on whether you sold it within a year or after a year. If it's less than a year, it's going to be ordinary income to you. If it's over a year, it's going to be taxed with either 0%, 15% or 20%. If you make over 250,000, you're going to get to add no another 3.8% and then whatever your state tax is. What are the determining factors? How much you make. If you're married, filing jointly less than 77,000, your capital gains rate is zero. All those things come into it. You can always write us at webinar@andersonadvisors if you want to ask specific questions. "I'm in the process of setting up QuickBooks account for my C Corp. I have a construction business and a hair salon that are DPA-ed as C Corp. I am flipping single-family residents in Wyoming LLC? I have sub-expense and sub-income accounts for those." This is getting long. This one, we may want to answer next week because this is kind of cool. It's talking about sub-accounts. I'm just going to table that one unless you want to jump on it. Jeff: No, I think there were a couple of issues in there. Toby: Yup, "But you don't pay tax until the withdrawal, correct? That was just with regards to the IRA." Steve, you do need an account and, yes, you don't pay the tax until you withdraw, add up in IRA. If you have unrelated business income tax or debt finance income out of an IRA, you'd pay it in the year that it was generated. "Can I set up an entity to receive W2 income and max out top […]?" Yes, but you can't do it out of a self-directed IRA. The reason being is that you are a disqualified person so you cannot do that unless you do something called a ROBS transaction, and that's going to be a major topic for another day. That's if your IRA invests in a C Corp that you set up and there are ways to do it and then you could actually pay yourself, so there. "I recently rolled over a 401K to equity trust IRA account, lending funds to other investors charging interest. Is interest income taxable to the IRA?" No, you can do that all day long, and equity trust is having to sign all your docs. My recommendation would be to set up your own 401K so you can sign the loan documents. Somebody says, "How many times a year can you roll over from 401K to IRA or reverse rollover?" It depends on whether you're doing a direct rollover. Jeff: You can do a trustee to trustee every day if you want, meaning you're going from TDM trade to Bank of America. You can do those as long as it's directly being transferred. You can pull the money out once to yourself once every 12 months, and it's a rolling 12-month period. If I pulled it out today, then I wouldn't be able to do it again until next October. Toby: Somebody asks, "Can I roll individual stock holding into Roth trading account if the current value is under the 550 limit, and how?" The answer would be, really, no; you're going to have to liquidate the holdings, open up a new account in the Roth IRA and then contribute the 5,500. It's a pain in the butt, I know, but I don't make the rules. It's this whole Bank Secrecy Act and all this stuff since they flew planes into trade centers. "Is the old rule dead on personal residences two out of five years?" No, that's still the rule, and we still use it like crazy. That's exception 121. Jeff: Yeah, they were talking about making it five out of eight years, and that got thrown out so it's still the old two-out-of-five rule. Toby: Yup. "Do my startup costs carry over two years if my net was negative?" It's actually 20-something years. Jeff: 15 years. Toby: 15 years now? Nate, you can carry forward your startup costs. Is it 15? Jeff::Yeah. Toby:  "Hey, wait a second. I have an S Corp. They keep charging me the 800 fee ever

Disclaimer: This is the unedited transcript of the podcast. Please excuse any typos. Jeff:  Welcome back to Emplify, the podcast corollary to EB Medicine's Emergency Medicine Practice. I'm Jeff Nusbaum, and I'm back with my co-host, Nachi Gupta. This month, we'll be talking Updates and Controversies in the Early Management of Sepsis and Septic Shock. We have a special  episode for you this month… We've brought Dr. Jeremy Rose, one of the peer reviewers, and a sepsis expert, on with us to talk through the content this month. Jeremy: Dr. Jeremy Rose here. Thanks for having me in on this conversation.  I'm always happy to talk about this topic because it's clearly important.  There's a great deal of confusion around sepsis and I hope that in the next couple minutes we can clarify things in a way that really help your average front line doc trying to get it right. Nachi: So Dr. Rose, before we get started, tell us a bit about your background and your interest in sepsis… Jeremy: I'm the Assistant Medical Director and Sepsis Chair at Mount Sinai Beth Israel in Manhattan.  For those listening, my hospital probably looks a little bit like yours.  We're busy, interesting, and just a little rough around the edges.  We like it that way.  More importantly, though, we mirror the national averages regarding sepsis.  Roughly half of in-hospital mortality is associated with septic  in some fashion.  Pretty incredible when you think about it.  Half. Jeff:  Sepsis chair... clearly this is an important topic if it warrants it's own chair at a major hospital in NYC. But getting back to the article this month. This month's issue was authored by Faheem Guirgis, Laurent Page Black, and Elizabeth DeVos of the University of Florida, Department of Emergency Medicine. Nachi: And it was peer reviewed by Michael Allison, Assistant Director of the Adult ICU at Saint Agnes Hospital, and Jeremy Rose and Eric Steinberg of Mount Sinai Beth Israel. Jeff: So as well all know Sepsis is bread and butter emergency medicine, but, what is sepsis?  It seems that every month or so we have a new guideline, bundle, definition, or whatever… I think it's best to start with the basics -  At its core, sepsis is a dysregulated response to infection that can be life-threatening. Nachi: Right and it's the combined inflammatory with immunosuppressive features of sepsis that lead to the devastating organ dysfunction and even death. Optimal management of septic patients has been a source of intense research, stemming from the landmark study by Rivers in 2001. Jeremy, can you give us a little historical context there? Jeremy: Rivers was a real pioneer.  He found a 16% mortality reduction with randomization to an early aggressive care bundle.  Amazing work.  That being said, many components of that bundle have since been disregarded.  For example, Manny Rivers would measure CVP in all of his patients, something we rarely do. Nachi: Not to cut you off and steal your thunder there, but we'll get to the most recent updates in management shortly. Let's first talk definitions and terminology, and specifically, diagnosis, which is definitely a big elephant in the room. As Jeff mentioned a few minutes ago, diagnostic criteria have undergone so so so many changes. Jeff: Yes it has! 1991 marked the first standardized definition.  Then in 2001, sepsis-2 was introduced.  In 2014, the Society of Critical Care Medicine and the European Society of Intensive Care Medicine started a task force, and by 2016, updated definitions were out again! Sepsis-3!! A lot of this came after the realization that SIRS was just too broad and was overly sensitive and non-specific. Jeremy, why don't you take us through Sepsis 3. Jeremy: So just to back up a little and frame this: Here's the fundamental problem:  As we likes to say, “there's no troponin for sepsis.”  And if you look at our patients, we tend not to miss the hypotensive, tachycardic, febrile patient.  We know they're septic.

Disclaimer: This is the unedited transcript of the podcast. Please excuse any typos. Jeff:  Welcome back to Emplify, the podcast corollary to EB Medicine’s Emergency Medicine Practice. I’m Jeff Nusbaum, and I’m back with my co-host, Nachi Gupta. This month, we’ll be talking Updates and Controversies in the Early Management of Sepsis and Septic Shock. We have a special  episode for you this month… We’ve brought Dr. Jeremy Rose, one of the peer reviewers, and a sepsis expert, on with us to talk through the content this month. Jeremy: Dr. Jeremy Rose here. Thanks for having me in on this conversation.  I’m always happy to talk about this topic because it’s clearly important.  There’s a great deal of confusion around sepsis and I hope that in the next couple minutes we can clarify things in a way that really help your average front line doc trying to get it right. Nachi: So Dr. Rose, before we get started, tell us a bit about your background and your interest in sepsis… Jeremy: I’m the Assistant Medical Director and Sepsis Chair at Mount Sinai Beth Israel in Manhattan.  For those listening, my hospital probably looks a little bit like yours.  We’re busy, interesting, and just a little rough around the edges.  We like it that way.  More importantly, though, we mirror the national averages regarding sepsis.  Roughly half of in-hospital mortality is associated with septic  in some fashion.  Pretty incredible when you think about it.  Half. Jeff:  Sepsis chair... clearly this is an important topic if it warrants it’s own chair at a major hospital in NYC. But getting back to the article this month. This month’s issue was authored by Faheem Guirgis, Laurent Page Black, and Elizabeth DeVos of the University of Florida, Department of Emergency Medicine. Nachi: And it was peer reviewed by Michael Allison, Assistant Director of the Adult ICU at Saint Agnes Hospital, and Jeremy Rose and Eric Steinberg of Mount Sinai Beth Israel. Jeff: So as well all know Sepsis is bread and butter emergency medicine, but, what is sepsis?  It seems that every month or so we have a new guideline, bundle, definition, or whatever… I think it’s best to start with the basics -  At its core, sepsis is a dysregulated response to infection that can be life-threatening. Nachi: Right and it’s the combined inflammatory with immunosuppressive features of sepsis that lead to the devastating organ dysfunction and even death. Optimal management of septic patients has been a source of intense research, stemming from the landmark study by Rivers in 2001. Jeremy, can you give us a little historical context there? Jeremy: Rivers was a real pioneer.  He found a 16% mortality reduction with randomization to an early aggressive care bundle.  Amazing work.  That being said, many components of that bundle have since been disregarded.  For example, Manny Rivers would measure CVP in all of his patients, something we rarely do. Nachi: Not to cut you off and steal your thunder there, but we’ll get to the most recent updates in management shortly. Let’s first talk definitions and terminology, and specifically, diagnosis, which is definitely a big elephant in the room. As Jeff mentioned a few minutes ago, diagnostic criteria have undergone so so so many changes. Jeff: Yes it has! 1991 marked the first standardized definition.  Then in 2001, sepsis-2 was introduced.  In 2014, the Society of Critical Care Medicine and the European Society of Intensive Care Medicine started a task force, and by 2016, updated definitions were out again! Sepsis-3!! A lot of this came after the realization that SIRS was just too broad and was overly sensitive and non-specific. Jeremy, why don’t you take us through Sepsis 3. Jeremy: So just to back up a little and frame this: Here’s the fundamental problem:  As we likes to say, “there’s no troponin for sepsis.”  And if you look at our patients, we tend not to miss the hypotensive, tachycardic, febrile patient.  We know they’re septic.  But how do we find the ones who don’t look as sick.  Frequently elderly, possibly with normal-ish vitals and no fever.  Those can be a lot harder to spot, but they may indeed be septic.  Also, for research purposes we have to have a common definition, so Sepsis 3 came up with something called the SOFA score. The problem with the SOFA score is that its difficult to perform in the ED.  It has parameters like bilirubin that often aren’t available when we want to screen out very sick patients.  Fortunately there is the abridged version qSOFA, which identifies non-icu patients who are at high risk of inpatient mortality. So here it is, and if you get one thing from this episode, this is it: There are ONLY 3 criteria to the qSOFA.  3 Criteria. RR > 22; AMS; SBP 2. So quite a few changes! Jeff: And Jeremy, sticky topic coming up here. Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services (or CMS) quality measures - They haven’t really caught on to and adapted to Sepsis-3 yet, have they? Jeremy:  The CMS mandate is based on the presence of SIRS criteria. Sepsis 3 is based on SOFA.  This is definitely confusing.  Part of the challenge in discussing this topic is separating out the QI guidelines from what is actually relevant to patient care based on the latest evidence-based medicine. Nachi: That seems fair.  We’re really going to put you in an uncomfortable spot for a second and push you here Jeremy. Do you have any insight into why CMS isn’t interested in following the mountains of research that have led to sepsis-3? Is there a reason they are sticking to their current criteria? Jeremy:  I think some of it is the slow pace of bureaucracy and the time that it takes to develop a consensus on management.  Even if we can agree on who is septic, it’s really hard, if not impossible to link the care to a pay-for-performance metric which is what CMS ultimately would like to see.  That’s not how Sepsis-3, or for that matter, SIRS, was designed to be used.  You’re trying to take a tool which was originally designed for research and mold them into a tool used for pay for performance. Nachi: What a struggle. The CMS metrics are slightly different from the 2001 sepsis guidelines also. Take a look at Table 2 of the article for a quick comparison of sepsis-3, 2001 sepsis, and cms side-by-side. And for those on twitter, we’ll be sure to tweet this table out too for your review. Jeff: With so many different scores and definitions, I think that adequately sets the stage for the challenge this month’s authors faced coming up with real evidenced based guidelines. Nachi: Oh absolutely.  And to make matters worse - this is a HUGE problem. We’re talking up to 850,000 ED visits annually in the US, and 19 million cases worldwide. Compounding this, sepsis results in death in approximately 1 out of 4 cases. Not only is it lethal, it is also very costly -- 17 billion dollars per year in the US alone! Jeff: And don’t forget importantly the 30-day hospital readmission rate. Sepsis is coming in at a higher readmission rate and cost per admission than acute MI, CHF, COPD, and PNA. Nachi: Let’s speak briefly on the etiology and pathophysiology of sepsis: we all know that sepsis is due to local infections that then become systemic. Previously, it was believed that the bacterial infection itself was the cause of the clinical syndrome of sepsis. However, we now know now that the syndrome of sepsis is due to the inflammatory and immunosuppressive mediators that were triggered by the infection. Normal immune regulatory safeguards fail and this leads to the syndrome. And interestingly, several studies have shown that critically ill septic patients experience reactivations of specific viruses that were previously limited to patients with severe immunosuppression. Jeff: Definitely something to look out for in your critically ill septic patients.  We should talk  briefly about the most common inciting infections that lead to sepsis. In order, these are: pneumonia, intra-abdominal infections, and urinary tract infections. No surprises there! Nachi: Yeah, that basically parallels my own experience, so that’s reassuring!  That takes us to our next potentially controversial topic - blood cultures.  Jeremy - we’re going to punt this one back to you Jeremy: This is another interesting topic that has received plenty of attention.   CMS loves blood cultures.  It’s an easy metric to track.  That doesn’t mean they’re always helpful.  We looked at our patients with lactates between 2.1 and 4.0 which had “severe sepsis.”  These patients were normotensive though, In other words, the ones that aren’t that sick.  We found that blood cultures are useful about 20% of the time.  That’s not bad.  So what do we do? We draw cultures before pushing antibiotics.  Is that helpful? Sometimes yes, does it waste money?  Debatable.  Does it help us meet our metrics, yes. Jeff: And I think that gets at the crux of the problem here: we don’t want to delay antibiotics on anybody, but we must balance this with the potential harm of further increasing the drug resistant bacterial population via sound antibiotic stewardship.  Remember also that there is a broad differential for sepsis, with several “sepsis mimics”. To name a few, we have PE, MI, CHF, acute pulmonary edema, DKA, thyroid storm, GI bleeds, drug intoxications, and withdrawal syndromes, just to name a few.  In case that wasn’t enough check out Table 3 of the article. Nachi:  And we already mentioned the leading causes of sepsis, that’s pneumonia, intra abdominal infections, and uti’s. But remember the source can be anywhere. Be sure to also think of pyelonephritis, central line associated bloodstream infections, prosthetics, endocarditis, necrotizing fasciitis, and meningitis. Jeff:  I don’t think we need to dwell on this much longer - basically the differential is huge.  Let’s move on to my favorite section - prehospital care. Jeremy: 20 pages of evidenced based recommendations and your favorite is the prehospital section, what’s up with that? Jeff: I’m an EMS fellow, what can I say… Anyway, on to my favorite section -- prehospital care.  This is always a hot topic because the prehospital period is a special opportunity to get early interventions in for septic patients  as 40 - 70% of all severe sepsis hospitalizations arrive via EMS. Nachi: And in one study taking place in a large metropolitan area, prehospital care time was over 45 minutes, and less than  37% arrived with IV access. Of course, these numbers would vary significantly based on where you practice. Jeff: So get this -- one study showed that out-of-hospital shock index and respiratory rate were highly predictive of ICU admission. So clearly early recognition and therapy may play a role here. Another study, however, showed knowledge gaps by advanced EMS providers in diagnosis and management of sepsis. And yet another study showed that only 18 to 21% of confirmed septic patients were suspected of having sepsis by EMS. Out of hospital fluids were started in only half of patients with severe sepsis. In essence, there is likely a strong role here for pre hospital protocols for identifying and treating sepsis. Nachi: In terms of pre hospital treatments though, prehospital IV fluids haven’t been shown to improve mortality, but have been associated with shorter hospital stays. Prehospital sepsis protocols have been described, but in general more research is needed in this area. Jeff: While prehospital care hasn’t yet been shown to improve the prognosis of septic patients, those presenting via EMS do have shorter delays to initiation of antibiotics, IV fluids, and early care bundles. EMS should focus primarily on stabilizing vital signs and providing efficient transport. If it’s possible to establish an IV and initiate fluids without delaying transport, EMS should do that as well. Nachi: And of course, oxygen for the hypoxic patients! Moving on to history and physical for your presumed septic patient. Jeremy, what are the big hitting things here that you always ask and check for, and that you make sure your residents are doing? Jeremy:  After ABC’s and glucose, AMS is really important, it’s in the QSOFA SCORE.  Unfortunately, this can be hard in many septic patients where they’re baseline mental status is less than perfect.  The other thing is to try and find the source.  Finding the source lets you make wise choices about therapy. Jeff:  Great point about the mental status - so many of our older population have an altered baseline, but recognizing changes from that baseline is key. Nachi:  Absolutely, with that in mind, let’s talk diagnostic studies, especially lactate.  Where I trained, basically everybody was getting a lactate, even tired looking residents seemed to be having their lactates checked, and trust me, they weren’t looking that good... Jeremy:  Brace yourself: lactate is really important in septic patients.  That being said, not every cause of elevated lactate is sepsis.  There is this animal called Type B lactic acidosis can come from numerous drugs like albuterol. Just because you see elevated lactate doesn’t mean you can forget about the other causes.  That being said, we know that patients with sepsis do better when they clear lactate. Jeff: Seems like the evidence is definitely in favor of serial lactate testing… Jeremy: For sure.  At least until you have a reasonable trend towards improvement.  We know lactate clearers do better.  We’ve looked at our own lactate numbers.  Interestingly, the takeoff point for sepsis seems to be around 2.5.  Meaning that patients with altered vitals and lactates above 2.5 tend to do worse.  But, there is a broad ddx to elevated lactate.   What is true, though, is that lactate is a marker for badness.  If your patient’s lactate is rising, yours should be too. Nachi: I bet I’m a “lactate clearer”. I may add “lactate clearer to my CV,” sounds impressive.  But I digress…  Next up we have Procalcitonin.   Since procalcitonin becomes elevated in those with bacterial infections, intuitively, this should be a valuable marker to assess in potentially septic patients.  Unfortunately procalcitonin lacks negative predictive value so most literature supports its use in diagnosing pulmonary infections and for antibiotic de-escalation. Jeff: Good to know, I’ve seen it being used a lot more recently and wondered how evidence based this test was. Jeremy:  Honestly, I don’t see Procalcitonin changing ED management at the moment.  If you’re   waiting for Procalcitonin to start antibiotics or fluids, you’re waiting too long. Nachi: Moving on, let’s talk imaging.  Based on current studies, the authors recommend focused imaging only.  In addition, they also note that our good friend, the point of care ultrasound, likely plays a role, as in one study, POCUS demonstrated a 25% improvement in sensitivity from clinical impression alone. Jeremy:  I think there are two ways POCUS comes in.  One, lung ultrasound can be really useful to find that occult pneumonia or differentiating pneumonia from CHF.   Two, your ultrasound is your best tool for assessing volume status.  I try to look at the IVC of all my septic patients and echo them when possible. Nachi: Right.  So now we’ve examined, drawn labs and cultures, checked a lactate, may be obtained imaging… next up we should probably start treating the patient. Whether you like it or not, we have to discuss CMS. Jeremy: Just to clarify before we start.  CMS defines “severe sepsis” as SIRS + infection with a lactate of 2.1-4.0. Septic shock is SIRS + infection with hypotension or a lactate > 4.0. That’s where we’re at. Jeff:  Good point.  Back to treatment: within the first 3 hours, for any patient with sepsis and septic shock, you must measure a lactate, obtain 2 sets of blood cultures, administer antibiotics, and give an isotonic fluid challenge with 30 cc/kg to patients with hypotension or a lactate greater than 4.   Then, within the first 6 hours, you must apply vasopressors to achieve a MAP of at least 65, re-assess volume status and perfusion, and remeasure a lactate. Nachi: This begs the question - are these recommendations evidenced based? Jeremy…. Jeremy: I’m so glad you asked that . Let’s start with fluids. Patient’s need adequate fluid resuscitation.  Interestingly there are 3 large RCT’s, PROMISE, PROCESS and ARISE,  that compared a Rivers type bundle to usual care.  Surprisingly, they showed no difference.  But when your drill down into these 3 trials, you see that “the usual care,” now generally includes at least 2 liters of fluid. Jeff: Ok, so it seems that there is some pretty good data to support a rapid fluid challenge of at least 30 cc/kg.  But how do we determine who needs more fluids and how much more they need.  There must be an endpoint to all of this? Jeremy: Another million dollar question. 30cc/kg is probably a good place to start.  How much is too much?  I think we need to be smart about our fluids.  Some patients will need less and some will need much more.  So, I remind my resident’s to be smart about fluids.  Sono an IVC, trend a lactate, follow a urine output, do a passive leg raise, even check JVP.  I mean just because you haven’t seen a unicorn doesns’t mean they’re not real.  Do something to monitor volume status. Nachi: Very important. Put your ultrasound skills to work here. They’ll only improve as you practice more.  Jeff, let’s get started on the ever important topic of antibiotics. Jeff: Sounds good.  Current guidelines recommend that broad spectrum antibiotics be administered within the first hour of presentation for those with sepsis or septic shock, ideally with blood cultures being drawn beforehand. In one study, every hour of delayed abx administration was associated with an 8% increase in mortality.  Since this 2006 study, other studies have had mixed results - with studies showing increased odds of death with delays in abx administration and others showing only a benefit in those with septic shock with or without hypotension with no benefit to those without shock. Nachi:  In terms of antibiotic coverage - you need to consider the site of infection, local resistance patterns, the presence of immunosuppression, and the patient’s age and comorbidities.  Table 5 of the article is very thorough and should be kept as a quick reference. Jeremy do you have any specific recommendations for our listeners on how we should approach antibiotic usage in the septic patient? Jeremy: I like to think about antibiotics a little more simply than referencing a table.  I ask a couple questions.  Does my patient need MRSA coverage ?  Does my patient need Pseudomonal coverage?  If the answer is no and no, then narrow your coverage.  You don’t necessarily have to use a bunch of Vanco, or a big gun antipseudomonal like Pip/tazo.  Also, have a look at your local antibiogram.  I can’t tell you how many times this changes prescribing habits for even things like simple UTIs.  I’m going to stray into some controversial territory here. The benefits of sepsis protocols are measured one patient at a time, but the harms are only measured in the aggregate.  What does that mean?  CMS metrics have caused us to  use to use more broad spectrum antibiotics.  As a result, we’re seeing more resistance.  My resident’s tell me to make it easy, give em VZ (that’s vanco/zosyn) and it kills me.   Every time you put a Z-pack into the world a pneumococcus gets it’s wings. So think more about your antibiotics, and know your local biograms. Jeff: That’s a great way to think about it, I fear I’ve given a lot of pneumococci wings during my training…  Next we’re on to vasopressors.  The data is pretty clear on this one - norepinephrine is the recommended first line vasopressor for septic shock.  In numerous trials comparing Norepi to dopamine, NE was far superior, with dopamine increasing arrhythmias in one trial and associated with an increased risk of death as compared to NE in another trial. Jeremy:  So here’s a question I get all the time: How can I give Norepi without a central line.  Let’s use Dopamine, its safe peripherally.  Ok, so follow that through.  We’re going to give a drug to increase blood pressure by constricting blood vessels, but don’t worry, it’s safe peripherally.  What does that mean?  It means it doesn’t work!!  It doesn’t give much blood pressaure.  Dopamine is a lousy pressor.  It causes a lot of tachycardia, which is not what you want in failing septic hearts.  So what do we do if we don’t have a central line?   We start norepi peripherally into a large bore IV for the time it takes us to get a central line.  That’s where the evidence is.  There’s a mortality benefit to NE over dopaine in septic shock. Jeff:  Right, this month’s authors note peripheral pressors may be safe for brief periods in settings with close monitoring.  While this is commonplace in some hospitals, others haven’t yet jumped on that bandwagon. I think it’s important to mention that this is becoming more and more commonplace, even in the prehospital realm.  With the service I fly for, we routinely start peripheral vasopressors without hesitation.  But this isn’t limited to the air.  Many ground 911 services have also adopted peripheral vasopressors in a variety of settings. Nachi: I’m sure there are many trials to come in the future documenting their safety profile, but moving on to the next pressor to discuss... vasopressin. This should be your second line vasopressor for septic shock.  In the VASST trial, low-dose vasopressin was found to be noninferior to NE.  In other trials, vasopressin also appeared to show a potential benefit in those with AKI and sepsis, although the subsequent VANISH trial (perhaps the best name for a clinical trial so far) failed to demonstrate a benefit to vasopressin titration with regard to renal outcomes in septic shock. Vasopressin has also been shown to reduce NE dosing when administered at a fixed dose of 0.03-0.04 units/min. Jeff: Next we have epinephrine.  In one study epinephrine and NE were equivalent in achieving MAP goals in ICU patients with shock, however several of those receiving epi developed marked tachycardia, lactic acidosis, or an increased insulin requirement.  The increasing lactic acidosis could confound the trending of lactates, so in those requiring inotropy in addition to some peripheral squeeze - the authors recommend adding dobutamine to norepinephrine instead of starting epinephrine. Although, keep in mind, this can lead to some hypotension so remember to start at low doses. Nachi: Phenylephrine, a pure alpha adrenergic agent, is next and should be considered neither first nor second line, but it may have a role as a push dose agent while preparing other vasoactive agents. Jeff: And lastly, we have angiotensin 2.  One recent 2017 study examining the role of angiotensin 2 in those with septic shock already on 0.2 mcg/kg/min of NE found that those receiving AT2 had significant improvements in MAPs as well as cardiovascular SOFA score at 48h with no difference in mortality.  Unfortunately, these benefits do not come without risk as AT2 may increase risk of arterial and venous thrombosis and potentially thromboembolism.  Clearly, one study isn’t enough to change practice, but it’s certainly food for thought. Nachi: So that wraps up vasopressors. Jeremy, we’re on to corticosteroids -- another hotly debated topic. When do you give steroids in sepsis? Jeremy:  Hmmm steroids, this is an age old question.  No study has clearly supported the blanket use of steroids in septic shock. Several like CORTICUS and ADRENAL showed no difference.  I will use hydrocortisone for pressor refractory shock. Meaning, you’ve tried everything else, so you might as well try.  Also, I do tend to avoid Etomidate, given the possibility of adrenal suppression and that there are several other induction agents, notably Ketamine  that don’t have this problem. Jeff: Those trials are certainly important, thanks for bringing them up - Especially with all the FOAM content out there, it’s incredibly important to look back at the data to understand where certain recommendations are coming from.   Anyway… one quick note on blood transfusions before we move on to special populations - Although part of the original early goal directed therapy, thanks to data from the TRISS trial which showed no difference in outcomes with a transfusion goal of 7 vs 9, transfusions are reserved for those with a hbg of less than 7. Jeremy:  One population we should make sure to mention and be careful with is end stage liver disease.  In the ER, we tend to miss SBP alot.  Mostly because these patients have lots of reasons to be sick and they already have elevated lactate because of their deceased clearance.  My practice is to give a dose of Ceftriaxone and sent a diagnostic tap to patients who are sick and have ascites. Nachi: Alright Jeremy, let’s talk controversies in sepsis. We’re giving you all the big questions this month! Jeremy:  We’ve already talked about fluids and how much to give.  Just a reminder that a history of CHF doesn’t preclude proper fluid resuscitation.  I think broad spectrum antibiotics for relatively well patients is a big controversy.  Our national rates of antibiotic resistance are terrible, and yet we’re using more antibiotics all the time.  There are very few if any antibiotics coming down the pharma pipeline and we’re going to have to face the music eventually.  Finally, we need national metrics that mirror clinical evidnece.  Protocols should be a tool and not a crutch.  You know what’s best for the patient in front of you, so don’t let metrics or protocols make you do things you think are not in your patient’s best interest. Nachi: So how do you escape the hospital protocols and CMS and do what’s best for your patient without “getting in trouble”? Jeremy: Here’s how I deal with it as the one who reads and QI’s all of our sepsis charts. I tell my colleagues to do what’s right, and if you need to deviate from the protocol tell me why.  As long as you can explain your decision, I’ll support it.  Explaining your thinking is good clinical practice and is good medico-legal practice. CMS has been unable to link these metric  to payment, simply because no hospital can meet them with any regularity.  It’s important that we advocate for our patients or nothing will change. Make them respect you for the highly educated professional that you are, and your patients will ultimately benefit. Jeff: Preach!! And before we close out with disposition, there are a few new therapies and trials on the horizon to keep a lookout for. The RACE trail examined the role of L-carinitine.  The VICTAS trial is looking at vitamin C, thiamine, and steroids in sepsis.  The CLOVERS trial is looking at early vasopressors vs a crystalloid liberal strategy.  And lastly, IL-7 is also being investigated.  All really cool stuff that could change how we manage sepsis in the future.. Nachi  A few quick notes on disposition before we close this episode out.  Certainly not all patients meeting SIRS require admission, but many do.  Those with qSOFA of 2 or higher represent a sick population and an ICU admission should be considered.   Even for those with a qSOFA of 1 but a lacate over 2 -- they have a mortality approaching that of patients with a qSOFA of 2.  Be careful just sending a patient who is on the fence to the floor because several studies have demonstrated that patients who are later upgraded have worse outcomes. Jeff: That’s in line with the general themes we’ve laid out today - definitely better to start early with aggressive care rather than play catch up later.  Jeremy - in 30 seconds or less, what are the most salient points in the management of sepsis that you would like our listeners to take with them from this episode. Jeremy:  Here are my take aways: qSOFA, RR, AMS SBP < 100 Norepi, not Dopamine - it doesn’t work! Be smart about fluids!! Be smarter about antibiotic use! You are the best advocate for your patient, despite what anyone else says! Jeff: Excellent, so that wraps up the October 2018 episode of Emplify. A big thanks to Jeremy Rose for joining us. Jeremy: Thank you for having me!!! It was great talking with you. Nachi: For our listeners -- additional materials are available on our website for Emergency Medicine Practice subscribers. If you’re not a subscriber, consider joining today. You can find out more at www.ebmedicine.net/subscribe. Subscribers get in-depth articles on hundreds of emergency medicine topics, concise summaries of the articles, calculators and risk scores, and CME credits. You’ll also get enhanced access to the podcast, including the images and tables mentioned. You can find everything you need to know at ebmedicine.net/subscribe. Jeff: And the address for this month’s credit is ebmedicine.net/E1018, so head over there to get your CME credit.  As always, the ding sound  you heard throughout the episode corresponds to the answers to the CME questions. Nachi: Lastly, be sure to find us on iTunes and rate us or leave comments there. You can also email us directly at emplify@ebmedicine.net with any comments or suggestions. Talk to you next month!

Mighty Mike: What's up, Server Nation? This is Mighty Mike, the Podcast Server, and you are listening to www.ProcessServerDaily.com Mighty Mike: You guys, I'm super excited about today's episode. If you have a story that you want to tell, that you're excited about. Maybe a dog chased you, maybe a guy tried to shoot you with his gun, maybe you had a heart-warming story where you helped somebody in need. Guys, I want to hear the story on this show. Go to www.ProcessServerDaily.Com/BeAGuest.html Find some studio time, go to www.ProcessServerDaily.Com/BeAGuest.html Mighty Mike: I look forward to speaking to you and hearing your story! Let's get to the show. Mighty Mike: What's up, Server Nation? You are listening to Process Server Daily, and I am your host, Mighty Mike the Podcast Server. Our guest today has recently appeared on Vice TV where he has been on the hunt for the most notorious Neo-Nazi of our time. He has been in business for 25 years and he owns and operates Encore Delivery Systems located in Columbus, Ohio. Mighty Mike: Jeff Cremeans, welcome to the show. Jeff C.: Pleasure to be here, Mike. Mighty Mike: Awesome, Jeff. I want to hear from you, Jeff! Tell us a little bit about yourself that wasn't in the intro. Take it away. Jeff C.: Sure. My name is Jeff Cremeans. I've been a process server for about 25 years. I started off, giving my age here, back in 1989 working for a law firm in Columbus, Ohio. Started off as a messenger working in the mail room. Did filings at the court house. Started to do the subpoenas, that type of thing. I'll make a long story short. I had an attorney, of the many duties I did in the mail room, wanted me to go get him a hotdog. So I went and got him a hotdog, I brought it back and he yelled at me, he said, "Why wasn't there mustard on it?" I thought, "You know, I'm gonna start my own business and I'm gonna charge this guy 25 bucks to go get his hotdog." Jeff C.: So I started a company out of law firm called City Wide Legal Messenger Service. Took off really well in Columbus, Ohio. There's a need for that type of thing here. I owned that for a few years. I sold that company to another company. I worked there for 11 years and then I've owned Encore since then. So I've had Encore for about 14 years. So ... Mighty Mike: That's awesome. Yeah, when I was watching the show, it's really cool, your office looks really cool. It looks like you got a pretty good size operation going on there. Jeff C.: Yeah, doing good. In any given time, we'll have eight or nine servers out, serving anything from child support papers to foreclosures. I don't get out as much and serve, certainly on this big case I'm helping out on, the Andrew Anglin case. But, yeah, I have a great group of servers. Very hard workers and do a great job. So ... Mighty Mike: Jeff, one of the most important things as process servers, for anybody, actually, is family. You got a family? Jeff C.: Sure do. I have a daughter at Ken State. Freshman at Ken State University. I've a son that's a sophomore. Yeah, they're pretty much my world, so ... Yeah. Mighty Mike: That's awesome. Jeff, there's a reason why you're on my show. You have a lot going on right now. Full of great experiences. But first, tell me about your worst experience working in the field. Jeff C.: You know, I think a lot of the process servers cross and that start talking about bad stories. Everybody's got a lot of bad stories. I think the one that really stood out to me was one, believe it or not, where I wasn't out in the field. Long story short, I'm sitting in my office, I had let everybody go early. I'm in the office by myself, just doing paperwork and in walks four people. I won't put their description out, but they were not very nice-looking people. I said, "Can I help you?" They said, "Yeah. One of your servers have been pounding on the door at my grandmother's house. We're here to see what's going on." Course, they were not so nice about it. I thought, "Well," I looked up and I saw these four guys. They meant business and they were there to do some damage or something. I thought, "Well, gosh, here we go." I can hold my own, but not with four guys. They were really upset that the server ... Now, how they go to where we were, they did some diligence on finding who we were and our address and everything. I got to give 'em that. Jeff C.: Anyway, I'll be honest with you, I was scared for my life. I thought if these guys want to start one me, there's not a whole lot I can do, but I explained to them. I calmed 'em down, I said, "Look, I'm sorry. This is not the way we do business and I apologize that your grandmother was scared," and all this stuff. Turns out that the server that went out, he was a newbie. He was trained and everything, but he had it to where he thought he could pound on doors and maybe even intimidate people, scare people to come to the door. Boy, did I have a long talk with after him that. I told him, "Hey, look, you're gonna go out, you're gonna go looking for trouble. You're gonna get it." Jeff C.: Fortunately, the trouble came to the office and it affected me. Nothing ended up happening. I talked to these guys and they end up not hurting me, which is a good thing. So the moral of the story, and for everybody out there, whether you're training a server or you're serving yourself, you don't have to ... there's times you have to get creative and aggressive. We can talk about that later in the podcast, but the big thing is, I explained to the server, "There was an old lady in there. You were scaring her to death. She had her grandkids come here and threaten me and want to know what's going on. Take it easy, man. You don't have to do that. If they don't answer the door, you don't have to pound on it." The lady wasn't even avoiding servers, so he learned a big lesson. He learned from that and turned out to be a great server. Not so aggressive anymore after that. Mighty Mike: I've recounted an experience that I've had too in a previous podcast about knocking on a door and being really gung-ho, and then realizing it was a 14 year old girl in there, terrified! She's told not to answer the door and it really helped correct my perspective that you never know ... I just had one yesterday. They told me she's an elderly lady and I've been there at all different times during the day. So I decided to come at night. Sure enough, her car was there, but she wasn't answering the door. The neighbors said, "Oh, she's in there." But I thought, "Man, I'm just gonna come back again at night and maybe she won't be in the shower or in the back room or wherever. Whatever she's doing to keep her from answering the door, giving her the benefit of the doubt- Jeff C.: Right. Mighty Mike: That she might actually answer the door if I come in a different time. Jeff C.: Yeah. Mighty Mike: Yeah, what I take from your story is prudence. Have a little bit of prudence when you come to the door. It's one of the most valuable asset in any industry. Mighty Mike: Jeff, tell us about your greatest experience working in the field. Jeff C.: Well, as many as there are bad, there are some good experiences out there. I think one that stands out to me is, and this is back in my City Wide Legal Messenger Service days, I was young and I was just new to the industry and learning, and doing stuff. I got a job to serve a wealthy person in a domestic case. Long story short, I had attempted many times. Pulled out all the tricks. I dressed up for Halloween, did the whole pizza delivery thing. Nothing worked. This guy, he was a dodger and he knew the game. He had been served before. Jeff C.: I pulled up one day, I just happened to be around the neighborhood. I thought, "Let me go try this guy again." I got there and he was out back, washing one of his expensive cars with his brother. I pulled up and he looked at me and started to run. Then he stopped and he's like, "You got me." He put out his hand and he shook my hand. He's like, "Congratulations, man. You played a good game." He was serious, very nice. We ended up talking there for a minute, so it was kind of ... never had that happen before, but it was nice to know that old game of hide and seek, he was not a sore loser, you know? So, yeah, that's kind of a good story. Mighty Mike: That's cool when they're like that. Some people just have a habit of dodging and ducking and hiding under couches, and things like that. Every once in a while, you'll get that guy that's probably like you would be when you're retired or something like that, or if someone else was trying to serve you. Ultimately, you're gonna accept the responsibility for your own problems, but you don't mind giving 'em a little run for his money. Jeff C.: Sure. Mighty Mike: That's a great experience. Mighty Mike: Jeff, tell me what you're working on right now that you're most excited about. Jeff C.: Well, in the past few years, we've gotten accounts with the Children's Services and the child support. It's a lot of work. It's lucrative, but dodging has increased with the child support papers as everybody knows, especially at that end of the stuff that we serve. So I've been able to hire more servers, it's broadened our horizons as far as learning more about the industry and finding people, the skip tracing, that type of thing. Jeff C.: Then, of course, there's the case we're trying to serve, the famous neo-Nazi. That has been the most challenging serve in my career in 25 plus years. So the reason why this case is so challenging to serve, this guy, he's a national, if not worldly-known neo-Nazi. He's got his own website, the Daily Stormer, that's been very controversial, but he has so much help hiding out. I've never seen anybody have so much support in hiding out. Anything from his father with all his property he owns, and people putting him up in places, this type of thing. But, yeah, it's been a very challenging serve. Worked very hard and done all the skip tracing. Done everything we possibly can to this point. Right now, we're relying on tips from a lot of different people that have maybe spotted him or know where he's at. We had a pretty good tip, as you saw in the Vice show. That's probably our best tip and missed him there. But, so, yeah. Jeff C.: There's a lot of things going on, a lot of good things. Growing at a steady pace and, again, I think any processor out there will tell you each case is different, each server's different. You don't want to get too emotionally involved, especially when someone's dodging, but there comes a time where, "Ask us for help," you know. One person can't do everything. If you feel like you've exhausted all your efforts in getting the serve, get somebody else on it. Get a fresh face, that type of thing. So ... Mighty Mike: Yeah, that's good, Jeff. I'll tell you, when I was watching the video, and you were going over the footage in the store where you were watching him with his protein powder, I got this feeling, almost like that's happened to me before where I've seen someone I was hunting for three months. He was a pot farmer up in [inaudible 00:09:36] Creek. Anyone knows you go up there, you gotta go up there with the AKs and [inaudible 00:09:40] dogs, and ready to go. Mighty Mike: I saw him in a park. He was apparently getting visitation with his kids, and I didn't have the papers, so I ran back, I drove back to my house. By the time I got there, he wasn't there. I was so mad at myself. How did you feel when that- Jeff C.: First, it was just shock and awe seeing him there. My son and I were just walking through the store and it was one of those things, when I first saw him, I thought, "Oh, man. That guy looks familiar," and I got closer. As I got closer, I thought, "Oh my gosh, that's him." No doubt in my mind whatsoever. In fact, I submitted a declaration to the court for the attorney's request to explain that I saw him. I got up, I was watching him. I was standing there as you could see in the video, watching him. Very nervous. He was kind of looking behind his shoulders and just kind of looked really, really paranoid, that type of thing. I thought, "You know, I don't have the papers. They're not even in my car. They're at home. By the time I get it and do that, it's not gonna happen." Plus, I had my son with me. It was really not a whole lot I could have done, like I couldn't leave him there. Jeff C.: As he was checking out, I proceeded to go through the store, past self check out lines. I looked over and I just thought, "You know, I gotta say something to him. I gotta go talk to him. I just can't" ... So as he was walking out, I pulled up right in front of him with my car. My exact words to him was like, "You know, you look like somebody I know. Is your name Andrew?" "Nope." He was gone. He was not gonna hang around. It was him, it was definitely him. Now- Jeff: He was not going to hang around, and it was him. It was definitely him. Now, people, especially his attorney ... What are the odds? What are the odds of tracking somebody down for almost a year and you see them at a grocery store? I don't know, but it happened and it was ... Needless to say, I have the papers with me every time. I have them in my briefcase, I have them in my car, I have them at work. I have other people that have them. All my servers have a copy of this stuff [inaudible 00:11:24] just in case something like that were to happen again. Don't think I'll ever get that opportunity again, but you never know. Mighty Mike: Yeah, I actually keep a bucket now, because of that experience that I had. I'll tell you one fun experience. I was in the courthouse and I'd been hunting this ... trying to serve this professor of Chico State University. He was retired. And so, I had served him like three times before and then he moved. We go to court every day to file papers at the courthouse. And so, I was in line at the courthouse and I heard this voice, and I was like, "I know that voice." And I listened and I heard it. He's just shooting it with a couple guys, "Yeah, no, I'm a professor down over at Chico State." And I thought, "That's him." And I didn't have the documents, but I was at the courthouse. So I said ... I looked it up on my phone, and I bought a copy of the paperwork at the courthouse. I checked the box individual and said, "Here you go." Jeff: Oh, nice. Very nice. Mighty Mike: I felt like such a ninja when I did that. It was cool. Jeff: Yeah. Mighty Mike: So I mean, if I would have saw him at the store I would have been in trouble. What I wanted to know, and I'm sure other servers are the same, is what's the next step? You can only skip trace them so much, right? Jeff: Yeah. Mighty Mike: You can only- Jeff: Yeah, there's a lot of people looking for this guy for one reason or another. It's not just to serve him papers. As you can imagine, he's made a lot of people upset with his comments and his viewpoints. Hey, you know, I believe in the first amendment. I think everybody can believe in whatever they want to believe in. You believe clowns should make more money when they go to parties? Fine. Just the fact that threaten violence and harass people I don't think bodes well. Jeff: So anyway, with that being said, a lot of people look for him. We're all trying to put feelers out there and we're all going off tips, whether it be the media, reporters, and other process servers. And from here, where do we go? Waiting on a tip. There's been rumor that he claims he's in Cambodia, then he was in Nigeria, then he was in Russia. Personally, my opinion, I think he's right here, whether it be in town or the state of Ohio, at least in the United States. He's not overseas. So it's going to be off a tip. It's going to get lucky. Somebody's going to see him, he's going to show his self somewhere. That's pretty much all we can do right now, just sit back and wait. Mighty Mike: Yeah, you just have got to post somebody up over by the protein powder. That's what you have got to do. Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. Mighty Mike: Okay. So I hope you get him and when you do get him, maybe we'll have you back on the show or even we'll do a Facebook Live so that'll just be [inaudible 00:13:49]. Jeff: I look forward to the day, believe me. Mighty Mike: Now dreams of the day. Jeff: Yeah. Mighty Mike: Server Nation, Jeff has been dropping some major value bombs on us today, but prepare yourself, because we are headed into the rapid fire round right after a word from our sponsors. Mighty Mike: Server Nation, I know you're with the times and you want to do whatever you can to have all of the resources for your client. That is why I created 123efile.com. As a process server, attorney, or even an improper you can visit the website and file your documents in any of the Tyler courts in California. With it's easy to use one-page operation, you can have your e-filing done in a matter of minutes and get back to what really matters. If your time is important to you, visit 123efile.com. Mighty Mike: Welcome back to the show. Jeff, are you ready for the rapid fire round? Jeff: I think I am. Mighty Mike: If you could recommend one app, what would it be and why? Jeff: I think Road Warrior's a good app. I'm not a humongous app fan. I kind of do a lot of things old school. I think if you're diligent enough and you really want it bad, you can find the right app and it'll get you where you need to be. Mighty Mike: Very good. Road Warrior is ... I swear by the Road Warrior. Jeff: Yeah. Mighty Mike: I mean, if another one came out I would try it, but I haven't found any other app like that. Jeff: Yeah, it's a good app. Mighty Mike: And if you have it set to go straight into the Waze app, it works really good in the city. You can pick different navigators, but yeah, Road Warrior's a great one. What case tracking software would you recommend as the best? I would take you as a Process Server Toolbox guy. Jeff: Yeah, yeah, Process Server's Toolbox or like Serve Manager. Again, I don't even ... To be honest with you, I don't use them. Again, I'm- Mighty Mike: Really? Jeff: Yeah, I'm a firm believer in the old fashioned way of doing things, and my customers seem to like it. I've tried to offer them the different softwares and the Process Server's Tool and everything, and my customers like, you know, "Just use the court's return. We don't want this. We don't want that." And I've just kind of been doing that for years, and it works for me so far. Mighty Mike: No, I'm intrigued, Jeff, because, let me tell you something, there's a beauty in simplicity. So I'm just curious, we don't have to go too far into it, but you have like a service request form? Jeff: Yes. Mighty Mike: And they fill that out. And is your return or your field sheet, if you were, is that a part of the same form? Jeff: No, that's a different form in fact. And that's the thing, we kind of create our own affidavits and our own returns of service if they want. For anybody that has just your federal district return of service, we'll start off with that. If somebody wants something different, we've created so many different types of affidavits and non-serve affidavits and returns of service. We've had people say, "Yep, we don't want this notarized. You don't have to notarize it," so we'll just make it a simple proof of service. Mighty Mike: Yeah. Jeff: Of course, as you know, in California they have their own and New York wants certain things. A lot of the different states and people want different things. Mighty Mike: Definitely. Jeff: So we kind of have a variety of affidavits and stuff we use. Mighty Mike: That's cool. Yeah, that's cheaper. Jeff: Yeah, it is. It is. Mighty Mike: I tell you, there's beauty in simplicity. When I first started out, I had a form and I thought I was a genius because I had my service request area on top where I gave the customer's info and special instructions, and then at the bottom it had four spots for first attempt, second attempt, third attempt. And I only did four attempts because most of my customers were for unlawful detainers. In our local area, you had to get three attempts for diligence before you could post or subserve. So yeah, there's beauty in simplicity. I appreciate that. Mighty Mike: What is your favorite skip trace tactic? Jeff: I think what's worked for us over the years are the neighbors. Knocking on the doors next to it. I tell you, there's ... We have had more nosy neighbors help us get people served than anything. It's a simple skip tracing tool. There's a lot of ways of skip tracing, but, boy, just I don't know how many times ... And I'm sure a lot of servers have experienced this. The neighbor's out washing the car, you go over, "Hey, is so-and-so here?" "Oh, you know what? No, they're down the street at this park at the baseball game." "Oh, really? Which park is that?" "You know, blah, blah, blah park." You go down there. Now, if somebody's been dodging for a few weeks and you really want to get them served, I don't mind going to a park at a ballgame and getting them served. It may be the only opportunity to get them. So yeah, I think neighbors are very informative, and can be very helpful for getting somebody. Mighty Mike: Yeah, and actually, you can skip trace a specific address, not a person, and it'll give you the people that live in that general area. Or you can go on Google and find out what the nextdoor neighbor's address is and skip trace them and get the phone number. And then call them up, say, "Hi, is this ..." So if you're looking for Jill, you call up the neighbor and say, "Hi, is this Jill?" And then she's going to go, "Oh no, Jill lives nextdoor." "Okay. Oh, sorry about that." You know? Jeff: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Mighty Mike: That's a good one that works a lot. Jeff: Yeah. Mighty Mike: Jeff, what is your favorite tool for defense? Jeff: I think there's weapons and there's this and there's that. I firmly believe in being human with people, talking to them. One thing that taught me about that bad experience, I think if you're there and you're calm and you hear them, and you're honest with them, say, "Hey, look, I got these papers," well I think that's worked more than anything. To be, for lack of a better word, aggressive or cocky or pushy and doing too much, I don't think that's going to help you out. I think really trying to talk to people. And there's a lot of different ways of doing that. Jeff: My biggest thing is somebody that's wanting to avoid service, I try to tell them, "Hey, look, I'm going to come back. I'm going to keep coming back. I'm not going to go away and this is not going to go away." I'm not a lawyer, I can't give them legal advice, but I try to tell them, "Hey, look, you're best off taking this now." So things like that and that nature, that to be me has been the best tool. Call it a tool. Call it whatever you want. I think it's a really good tool to use. Mighty Mike: Yeah, I did a poll on Facebook and, "What was the best tool for defense?" And people came back ... And actually, I gave some options and I gave like a gun, and a knife, and all these things. And then, I gave a few options. It was like common sense ... Jeff: Yes. Mighty Mike: Those things that are inside of you, like in your brain and in your habits, and the way that you treat people, the way that you talk to people, those are the things that had the most hits. I think one of them had like 64. Common sense had like 64, and the next one had 30. And the actual gun I think only had like 16. We all like to talk about the guns that we own, but the truth is, when you're out there serving, using your gift of gab or your ability to control a situation with your words is way more powerful than a gun. Jeff: Absolutely Mighty Mike: A gun is an immediate ... It's not an answer. It's not a resolution. It's a tragedy if you did have to pull it out. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-gun. I'm just saying I agree with you. That's absolutely correct. Jeff: And yeah, guns can be dangerous and they can promote ... get you into a situation where somebody could get hurt or killed. Again, I'm totally not anti-gun either. I totally believe in that, and a lot of people should have one for their protection. I've never been a really big badge guy. Again, I'm just kind of human, old fashioned way of doing things. Mighty Mike: Yeah, in California it's actually become quite a ... most of the server companies, it's quite anti-badge, because a lot of people are getting convicted and charged, and potentially convicted for impersonating an officer. Jeff: Yes. Mighty Mike: Throwing around words like, "Officer of the court," and things like that. Jeff: Mm-hmm Mighty Mike: You know, I used to do it when I first started because that's what they said in my training class, and really we're not. Joe down the street could serve papers, but he can't serve more than 10 in California. I know it's different in every state, but ... Jeff: Mm-hmm Mighty Mike: Jeff, what book would you recommend? Jeff: Anything John Grisham. I'm a huge John Grisham fan. In fact, the older I get, I'm doing a lot more reading. And I love to read, it's just like a lot of people, you just don't have the time. But John Grisham, really just the fact ... You know, he's mentioned process servers in his stories and subpoenas being served. I always kind of liked that part of it, but just his work is just I think is amazing. And the legal aspect of it, I'm really interested in that part of it. http://www.jgrisham.com/books/ Mighty Mike: That's really cool. I'm going to have to check it out, John Grisham. I'm actually writing a book. It's going to be done here in about 90 days is my goal. And it's going to be on process server safety and best business practices. It's going to be great! Jeff: That's awesome! Mighty Mike: Yeah, you can get a free copy at www.processserverdaily.com/freebook.html when it comes out. Mighty Mike: Jeff, did you have a mentor? Jeff: I started off at a young age. I’m the second youngest of 10 children. Growing up, it was one of those things where, as you can imagine, you either go off to college or go get a job. You're not going to hang around the house, that type of thing. My mentor was no doubt about it my father. He was a hard-working man, raising 10 kids, him and my mother. To me, they’re the most awesome people in the planet, but nevertheless, he said, “Work hard and be nice and don’t ever give up.” He was always supportive of all my brothers and sisters, whatever road they took. He was so excited for me when I started City Wide Legal Messenger Service. He loaned me $1,000, which I had to pay him back by the way. He wasn’t that nice! Jeff: He was truly my mentor. Did he know anything about filing stuff at the courthouses, doing certain papers? Absolutely not. Just his life lessons taught me, even to this day, I still use them. It has really taught me a lot and just got me far. Mighty Mike: That’s great. You answered one of the questions. What’s the greatest advice you’ve ever received? Jeff: The greatest advice I’ve ever received is definitely from my father. Be humbler. Be nice. Work hard. I taught my own kids that. I’d tell you. If you're nice … Don’t be too nice. You're going to be taken advantage of. I’m not saying that, but I’d say being nice, being compassionate, being humble will get so you much further in life. I truly believe that, and that’s the way I try to live my life and do my work. Mighty Mike: To provide an abundance of value without expectation just as a business practice, but also just as a person. There are many examples of that, whether it’s in your love life or with your family. If you provide value without expectation, it will come back to you. Like you said, don’t be taken advantage of, but sometimes it might feel like it and then the next day, you're like, wow, I didn’t expect you to do all these nice things for me. Jeff: Right. Mighty Mike: That’s the idea. Jeff, what would you do if you woke up today, had all the same skills and knowledge, had no clients, a smartphone, a car and only $100? What would you do in the next week? Jeff: I would definitely do some work reaching out to other people, advertising to a certain extent. I’d tell you. The best thing that I would do is to get out there and do a good job for folks. I think word of mouth advertisement has been a key for me to my success. It’s one thing to go out and say you're a process server or say you're going to do this and do that, but if you do it, it takes that one paralegal that you do a great job for. You communicate the whole time. You're doing everything you need to be doing. That paralegal could be involved in a group that tells another paralegal and so on and so forth. Jeff: I think part of doing that good job is communicating. Somebody sends you a paper. Don’t take three days to get back to them if it’s a rush and what’s going on. Certainly don’t take another week to send them back to return a service, that type of thing because again, that word of mouth could also hurt you too. It could be a very valuable factor. It could also hurt your business. I would pound the pavement and get out there and try to talk to as many people as I could, talk to paralegal groups, bar association, that type of thing. Mighty Mike: That’s good. One of the things that I take from your story is that, from your methods, is that be diligent. Get out there. Sometimes it’s nice to have a little hand-up, not a hand-out, but the truth is in this example, you only have $100. You have a car. You have the knowledge that you already have, and you have a smartphone so you can give the internet … You can search things. Guys, anybody can do this. You get out there and go after it. I say anybody can do it, like anybody who wants to build a business. Some people, they’re not cut out for serving papers, and if that’s the case, build the business; have someone else serve the papers. There’s a lot of really good husband and wife teams out there. Jeff, what is a parting piece of guidance you want to give to the servers out there? Jeff: Again, what we’ve talked about previously. Stay humble. Treat people with kindness. You have a job to do and certainly do it. In doing so, just remember this thing is bigger than you. Don’t go out there thinking you're Captain Bob, the process server and think that you're better than everybody, that type of thing. Just go out and communicate with your customer. Take good care of your customer. Communication is key. Jeff: I touched base on it earlier. I don't know how times I’ve used servers across the nation where they do 75% of the job. What I mean by that is, hey man, I got this rush. I need to serve right away. This is a big customer, blah, blah, blah. By gosh. They went out and they got it served right away, did a great job. A week later, hey, where is my return of service? I got to get this filed. The attorney is screaming at me. They got to get this filed. Follow through on your job. Do what it all right, not just half of it. Definitely get in the network groups. Meeting new guys and get involved with this and NAPPS members and stuff, a great, great tool. It’s great to get advice to people. Jeff: Again, I’ve been doing this for a lot of years. I still seek advice. I’ll call a server that I’ve been dealing with for 20 years and say, “Hey, man. How would you do this? What’s your viewpoint on this?” Never stop learning because I’d tell you. There’s a lot to learn in this industry. Mighty Mike: You're right, Jeff. There is. A big part of the industry for process servers, what I find most often is that they find themselves in a chasm alone by themselves and the way that they think that every other processor is their competition. The truth is that many process servers out there have too much work and they would be more than glad to give you the work if you can give them a discount. Jeff: Absolutely. Mighty Mike: If that’s what you need to get off the ground and to get your business rolling so you can raise your prices and have some more customers, more attorney clients come in, then that’s what you got to do. Jeff: Absolutely. Mighty Mike: I started out making $20 a paper. How about you? Jeff: When I worked at the law firm, I think I made about $4 an hour. Whether that’d be filing at the courthouse or serve a paper even add to that, yeah, it’s … I think then after that, as time went on, I think I was getting $20 a paper at that point. It’s been a long road. I certainly charge more for that these days. Mighty Mike: Jeff, I appreciate your story. I want to personally thank you for being on the show. I’ve been really impressed with your story and the whole situation with the neo-Nazi. That’s just a side thing. Watching the video and seeing your operation going on, it’s definitely worth being excited about. I’m excited to share it with the world. Jeff, what’s the best way that we can connect with you and then we’ll say goodbye? Jeff: Sure. You can reach us via email. Our email address is jeffENCORE@sbcglobal.net. Definitely a phone a call away, (614) 414-0730. Mighty Mike: Excellent. You can get that information in the show notes at www.processserverdaily.com/jeff.html Until next time, server nation, you’ve been served up some awesomeness by Jeff, the Nazi hunter and Mighty Mike, the podcast server. Mighty Mike: Server nation, I know that you know all about directories and that you know the importance of getting yourself on the web in as many places as possible, but it’s more than that, server nation. It’s about putting yourself on the websites that get ranked on Google, Yahoo and Bing. I’m excited about a new program that I’m starting. Really quickly, let me tell you. As a process server, I don’t cover the whole country, right? We send servers out to other process servers and we call that affiliates. My new program is going to incorporate a system. When my customers come on to my website and they do a location search, try to find a process server in a specific location, many times, I do not serve that area and so I might hire an affiliate in another area and manage to serve that way. That takes time and effort away from my local customers and the local efforts that I have here in Northern California. I want to personally invite each and every member of server nation to add themselves to my directory on my website. This is what’s going to happen. My customers who come to me loyally will search a specific location. If I don’t cover a specific location but you do, guess who shows up? You do. How great is that, server nation? I’m going to share something that means so much to me, my customers. I believe that this will benefit my customers because they will have a resource to go to, to find process servers and to get the best rates nationwide. Oh, but there’s a catch, server nation. There’s always a catch... My directory is free for an affiliate to sign up and get the basic affiliate level. If you do not perform when my customers come and they see that it’s not me or one of my employees or contractors and they see that it’s you, they’re going to see a rating next to your name. If your rating falls, you may not get any business. Server nation, give it a shot. Sign up for the free listing, but please, take care of my customers. I love them like they’re family. Visit www.processserverdaily.com/affiliates.html Mighty Mike: Until next time, server nation, stay safe out there!

Job Insights #4: Apps With Productivity in Mind for Education and in the Workplace. Transcript Provided Welcome to the 4th episode of Job Insights with Serina Gilbert and Jef Thompson. We focus on Employment, Careers, enhancing opportunities and bringing you the latest innovations from across the Vocational Rehabilitation field to ensure your choices lead you down the career pathway that you want and succeed in gainful employment. From getting started with services, to assessments, Individual Plan for Employment (IPE) to gaining the skills to succeed and tools for success, Job Insights will be giving you tips and tricks to help your journey to employment and break down the barriers along the way. On this 4th episode of Job Insights Hope Paulos joins Serina Gilbert and Jeff Thompson in the studio and they talk about productivity apps and software. From the classroom to the workplace, these apps are geared towards making your daily challenges a bit more manageable, efficient and productive. Hours Tracker, Black Board, Drafts, Files, SeeingAI, Dictionary Thesaurus Pro, KNFBReader and Bookshare’s Read To Go app are all mentioned with some great discussion about how we use these apps. A great little Scan Stand named Foppidoo makes the scene and a conversation on Lift and Uber gets quite a chat as well. You can check out the Meet Me Accessibly book from Jonathan Mosen and learn about Zoom on the PC. Join the Job Insights crew and download some apps and give them a whirl. Hey, productivity rocks! We hope you enjoy this Job Insights episode and you can send your feedback and suggestions to the Job Insights team by email at JobInsights@BlindAbilities.com Follow the Job Insights team on twitter @JobInsightsVIP Job Insights is part of the Blind Abilities network. A big Thank You goes out to CheeChau for his beautiful music! Thank you for listening! You can follow us on Twitter @BlindAbilities On the web at www.BlindAbilities.com Send us an email Get the Free Blind Abilities App on the App Store.   Job Insights #4: Apps With Productivity in Mind for Education and in the Workplace. Transcript Provided [Music] Female voice: I feel like I'm getting a lot better education so yeah, I think, I think the online learning is an equalizer. Jeff: Job Insights, a podcast to help you carve out your career pathway and enhance the opportunities for gainful employment. Female Voice: But sometimes I require KNFB Reader when I have more than one page that I want to kind of read continuously. Jeff: Learn about resources for training education and employment opportunities. Female Voice: Blackboard, that is a learning management system and a lot of universities are using them as well for classes. So this particular app is available on Android, iOS, and PC, and Mac of course. Jeff: We will hear from people seeking careers, employment, from professionals in the educational field, teachers, and innovators in this ever-changing world of technology to help you navigate the employment world and give you Job Insights and enhance the opportunities to choose the career you want. Male Voice: Fopydo people sounds good and I actually at that time asked my son, and I, it was actually a play on the on Scooby-doo. Jeff: And you can find the Job Insights podcast on BlindAbilities.com, part of the Blind Abilities Network with hosts Serina Gilbert and myself Jeff Thompson, and you can contact us by email at JobInsights@BlindAbilities.com, leave us some feedback, or suggest some topics that we cover. On Twitter at Job Insights VIP, and check out the Job Insights support group on Facebook where you can learn, share, advise, and interact with the Job Insights community. [Music] Female Voice: Lift also released an update to their service dog policy saying that an allergy or fear of animals is not a valid reason to not pick up an individual with the service animal. Jeff: But hey it's a good learning tool, because it's just repetitious and pretty soon it just starts coming to you, mm-hmm, so I dug right in, when I saw they had flashcards I went Wow! [Music] Jeff: And now please welcome Serina Gilbert and Jeff Thompson with Job Insights. [Music] Jeff: Welcome to Job Insights and this week we're talking about apps, apps that you'll use in school, at the workplace, and these are productivity type of apps, and with me today of course is Serina Gilbert how are you doing? Serina: I'm good Jeff, how are you? Jeff: I'm just doing great and we got a guest today all the way from Maine. Hope Paulos, how are you Hope? Hope: I'm doing great, how are you? Jeff: I'm doing good, we're all doing good, so that's good. Today we're gonna talk about apps, you know some of these apps are mostly productivity type of things, stuff that you'll use to, you know get things done and that's, that's what we're, we're all about here on Job Insights. So Serina, last podcast you said you were holding out on us from what you're gonna tell us, is the cliffhanger over or are you gonna tell us? Serina: Oh we've got a little bit of a wait cuz we have to talk to Hope first, we have a guest. Jeff: How about you Hope, what do you got? Hope: I certainly don't have a cliffhanger. [Laughter] Serina: We set her up there Jeff! Jeff: yeah. Hope: Yeah you did! [Laughter] Jeff: So Hope, how's it going out and Maine? Hope: It's going well, the weather is nice finally, when I talked to you and Pete last time, it was March, and it was in the 20's, 20 degrees. Now we are in about the 60's, 70's, so I am absolutely loving it, birds are chirping, the guide dog is going for walks, he's enjoying it, Jeff: Is he bringing you with? Hope: Oh yeah of course! [Laughter] Jeff: That's great! Serina: But Jeff needs to know if you planted any Apple trees? Hope: No. Serina: Only PC trees? Hope: Only PC trees. [Laughter] Jeff: Oh that's the running joke isn't it? So when it comes to productivity type of apps, Hope what did you bring to the show today? Hope: Sure, so I have a couple of them. I don't use this particular one very much right now because I do work for Apple, and Apple has me on a strict schedule so I don't need this particular one, but for people who are freelancing, the name of the app is called Hours Tracker, it's a free app and basically it allows you to track your hours of course, hence the name, but it also allows you to track your earnings, and it will deduct the taxes as well. So it will tell you how much is deducting for taxes. So it's great for individuals who are freelancing. The second app that I have brought to the show is Blackboard. That is a Learning Management System and a lot of universities are using them as well for classes, so this particular app is available on Android, iOS, and PC, and Mac of course. This will allow you to do your classes online literally anywhere and actually a couple of the blindness organizations were working in tandem to get this particular app accessible. It's extremely accessible, there was only one thing that I commented on a couple weeks ago and I sent feedback in to the iOS developers and they fixed it. They're very very good about fixing issues that people might have. The other app that I brought, that I brought to the show is Learning Ally. This is an app that will allow you to download books and it's also good for individuals who are dyslexic and who have low vision because I believe it will allow you to magnify the print in the actual book so you can read along with the narrator which is quite helpful. That's more University as well, University-type app, Productivity app and of course the last app would be the Bookshare app. The Read2Go, this allows you if you have a membership to Bookshare, which I believe most students can get for free, it allows you to read the books on your phone be it Android or iOS. Jeff: Now on the Hours Tracker, is that what it's called? Hour Tracker? Hope: Hours Tracker yeah. Jeff: Hours Tracker. So when you're doing the setup, your presets, do you put in your wage, and then it just calculates it and are you able to output that anywhere, or is it just something you read? Hope: Absolutely, so this particular program allows you to put in the wage, and it allows you to put in whether or not taxes are withheld, so technically even if you were, you know not freelancing, if you working a job as an employee, a W2, you could use it as well. Basically it allows you to put in your breaks and your lunches and things like that, and it lets you know when to go on the break, and when to go to lunch, and when to clock out, and when to clock in. [Music] App Voice: Sample Job, 0.05H today, 0H button, clock out now or long-press for extras menu, button, next clock out now, button, cause now, button, break now button, break now, sample job 0 H on break 8:10 a.m., 0.02H button, end break or long press for extras menu button, end break. Hope: It also will let you know, like you can, you can set a reminder to have it automatically clock in when you get to work, and yes you can send it, I think it's a CSV file, or CV file, something like that, a database file, and it will put it in an Excel spreadsheet I think as well, so that you can show it to your employer. Jeff: That's kind of neat. Serina: That's pretty cool I like that. Hope: Yeah it's a it's a pretty neat app for sure. Jeff: Intuit the makers of QuickBooks and various tax applications has a program and it might be part of their bundle and I believe you can buy it separately, I believe it's called Self-Employed, but that sells on a monthly subscription for 7 to 8 dollars a month. Hope: Yeah this is free and I think, I'm trying to think if I paid for anything, I think I did just because I was freelancing at the time and I wanted them more, more, so it has a lite version and it has a full-featured version, but even the full-featured version wasn't some really really, you know cheap price. Jeff: A one-time fee? Hope: A one-time fee yeah. Jeff: That makes perfectly good sense, economically I can track that pretty good. [Laughter] [Music] Jeff: You can download Hours Tracker free from the App Store or the Google Play Store. Hourlys Tracker is free for up to 21 days of time entries and if you upgrade to the pro or professional, you get rid of all the ads, unlimited amount of entries that you can make, the only difference between the professional and the personal is you can have unlimited amount of jobs in the professional, and you can upgrade to the professional or the personal in the in-app option. The professional will run you $9.99 and the personal will run you $5.99. Once again, a one-time payment, I was really intrigued when I heard about Hours Tracker, I downloaded to my iPhone, and started using it right away, I named a job, I started the time, and when I was completed I stopped the time. I also had the option to input the time that I wanted it to start or input the time that I wanted to stop, otherwise you could do it in real time and that works out really nice. There's also an option that you can take notes and keep them with that job. I found that the accessibility on Hours Tracker on my iPhone was second to none, all the buttons were labeled and the intuitiveness was what I expected for when I have started logging the job, putting in the hours, getting out of the job, putting notes in, was just exactly how I expected it would work and it did work that way. Another small part of the accessibility, it lets you cancel a pop-up or dismiss the pop-up that comes up, and I really like that because if you've ever had a pop-up pop-up and not be able to get rid of it, that's not good. So after kicking around Hours Tracker on my iPhone for one job, I personally recommend this for anybody who is self-employed or someone who works on projects and just wants to have better records of the time they spend on their projects and jobs. [Music] Jeff: So on the Blackboard, I remember I have not experienced Blackboard yet, but I remember going to college and I was at the mercy of every professor that was experimenting by putting stuff on the web and accessing it through a link they give you, and if it was accessible you got lucky, so Blackboard is a collective effort to make it accessible for everyone. Hope: Absolutely, so it all depends on the type of class you're taking obviously right, if people don't know I'm going back to school to become a teacher of the blind and visually impaired and so all of the courses need to be accessible to me. So the professor's will tag their images so that I can know what's going on, their quizzes are all accessible, obviously the discussion boards are all accessible, and I use a combination of the two apps, so I use the combination of Blackboard and I use Learning ally to be able to do my classwork, and literally like I said, I can do it anywhere. With the phone if I have a Braille display and/or a Bluetooth keyboard I can do my homework on the beach or in the park you know, so literally anywhere and that's huge compared to when I was going back to school to get my undergrad degree, like you know 2009, that's when I graduated so it's, it's huge it's a huge step up. Serina: Yeah I remember using Blackboard when I was doing my master's degree which would have been gosh, probably around the same time as you are doing your undergrad, so I finished in 2010 and so, I don't know, 2007, 2008, somewhere around there's when I started it and they used Blackboard for everything. My program was pretty much 100% online, we didn't have the app back then, we just had the website, but even back then the website was pretty accessible. I rarely had any difficulties with it and I was going for the rehabilitation counseling so the professors were a little bit more cognizant of accessible media and documents and things like that. I loved using blackboard because it is easy to log on to, you know if I was on a break at work or whatever, or at home trying to get a discussion posted or something like that. Hope: Yeah it is really easy to use extremely easy to use. Jeff: Is that why you opted to do your classes online, not that you're on an island out off the shore of Maine, but..... [Laughter] Hope: Yeah I think, I think it's easier because I've done classes on site to, not having to do as my masters, but having to do with my undergrads degree. I find the digital world to be a lot more accessible, I just remember going to classes on site and didn't have a lot of input from the professor. The professor was teaching to a lecture hall full of I don't know, a hundred students, I just felt like I was kind of left out and wasn't getting all the notes that I needed to get, whereas here taking the classes online and using, again the combination of Blackboard and Learning Ally, I'm able to take the notes that I need, I'm able to contact my professors if I need to. I have peer to peer interaction as well. I feel like I'm getting a lot better education, so yeah I think, I think the online learning is an equalizer. Jeff: Mm-hmm. Hope: Of sorts. Jeff: Yeah that's great because you know everyone has to do what works for them and if you found a good way of doing it that's great, having those two apps makes it all accessible. Hope: For the most part yeah everything is accessible, even from registering for classes, I go to Missouri State University, so using Missouri State's website is accessible. It's just huge, it's what we're able to do as people who are blind and visually impaired with a digital world, it's absolutely huge. Jeff: So is that something you looked for when you were looking for an online course that they did use Blackboard? Hope: Not really, I didn't know what they used, I contacted them, I did ask them in the beginning when I was registering for the program what they used and I could have used Moodle, Moodle was another application, another learning management system that I'm familiar with and either one I would have been fine with. I looked online and and saw the collaboration between the two blindness organizations regarding Blackboard and I'm like okay this is going to be fine, this is gonna be great, I know it's gonna be accessible, I contacted my professors beforehand and gave them my accommodations and all that and said I need extra time and because it's a digital world they can input my time-and-a-half for quizzes and allow me to have that time and you know they can input that in Blackboard and all is good. I can't speak enough good things about accessibility and digital stuff. Jeff: So let's see, there's Learning Ally, we will put that in the show notes, we'll put Blackboard in the show, we'll put all these in the show notes so people can click on them and go right to the App Store or the Google Play Store and we'll have the links there, so back to the cliffhanger. [Laughter] Jeff: Hi Serina. Serina: And I thought of one like while we were sitting here, so even you'll be surprised Jeff. Jeff: Ooo. [Laughter] Serina: My absolute number one favorite app and I see it all over all of the groups like iPhone and iPad apps, and the assistive technology group, all of them, a seeing AI, I don't think it's any surprise there. That app allows me to be a lot less dependent on a human reader to just go through what's in my mailbox that I get at work. Now I can just kind of okay, yeah I need someone to finish reading that to me, or oh, this is just something that needs to go in the file, it's cut down on how much time I have to spend with somebody sitting at my desk with me going through stuff, and it's free, which is amazing to me because I remember reading gosh, I think it was like two years ago when Microsoft had their hackathon and they had released a video about seeing AI and they were showing a demo of it and I was like, well that's cool but it'll never come out and if it does it'll be super expensive. And then all of a sudden there's a link, and it's free, and it works, like amazingly and it, I can't thank Microsoft enough for that, that actually was a big surprise for me. Jeff: Yeah, you just open it up and boom, short text is reading. Serina: Yeah, from across the room right Jeff! [Laughter] Jeff: Yeah, that happened to me and, I shouldn't say it but I was that Orcam demonstration when they were having the little issues, and I was reading the wall that had their sign on it, so I was like wow, this is already talking, just out of the box, just turn it on and there it is. Male Voice: I use seeing AI all of the time to determine what's in my medicine cabinet, for documents you know I use seeing AI for short text. [Music] Female Voice: I use the document reader all the time, not gonna say it's as good as KNFB Reader because it's not. I did a test between reading my mail with it and with KNFB Reader and I found KNFB Reader to be far more stable, but I still like the app, I use it a lot, I'm glad that it's one of the tools in our toolbox. Female voice: For reading and stuff I used to go to KNFB Reader all the time but it just seems like Prizmo go and seeing AI is so much easier that I tend to go to them more. Male Voice: Seeing AI is my main go-to app and I use that, the short text channel mostly if I can't identify an item with that I will switch to the product channel if it has a barcode. A lot of the apps like [Inaudible] and Aipoly Vision and [inaudible], I've deleted most of those off of there because I can accomplish the same thing with seeing AI [Music] Male Voice: Jeffrey I see apps like Aipoly Vision, [Inaudible], Identifee, of course the KNFB Reader, I think seeing AI is becoming the main tool in the toolbox. Jeff: And you know, all the other channels that they have on their to four options but that's the one I use all the time because, you open it up it works. Serina: Yeah there's a handwriting one too that I've tried only a couple of times, but it surprisingly did recognize the handwriting enough for me to figure out at least what the note was generally about cuz sometimes my clients will stop in and I can't see them, and they'll leave a handwritten note at the front desk and obviously it's probably dependent on the individuals handwriting but I was at least able to get the name of the client and know, okay I'll just call them and see what they needed. Jeff: Hmm, well that's good. Serina: That one's in BETA I think. Jeff: Yeah you always wonder when they have a little feature that's in there and they tag the word BETA after it's like, you better use it now because it may not be there! Serina: Or it's like the disclaimer don't trust this feature. It might not work right! Jeff: Mm-hm try it on a doctor's prescription. [Laughter] Serina: Oh gosh. Jeff: That's the to test. Serina: This is totally not productive but when seeing AI first came out, we were playing with it in my office to see how old it thought everyone was. [Laughter] So all of my co-workers were like changing their hairstyles or putting on glasses or taking off glasses to try to trick it to make it think that they were younger. Jeff: That's a great use of state-funded money. [Laughter] Serina: Hey! Jeff: I know everyone's been doing that, it's kind of a novelty thing and that's like artificial intelligence to me when they're built into apps to me, it's like you know when you go to the carnival, you know, they'll guess your age and you win the whistle or something but you know, I'm not into the novelty stuff but that really does work. Serina: Hope, do you use seeing AI for any of your school work, or since it's mostly digital do you not have to use it a lot? Hope: Yeah I use it sometimes, I use it for work actually to find out whether or not my Mac, my work Mac is gonna turn on correctly. We have so many policies in place at Apple that sometimes voice-over doesn't turn on correctly and so I use either seeing AI or I also use AIRA for that, but most of the time I just grab my phone and you seeing AI. Speaking of the, or how old people were, I actually did that last weekend I think it was on my grandmother's 93rd birthday. I went up to her and took a picture of her and had seeing AI tell her how old she was, now again she's 93 right, so it said a 65 year old woman is smiling, or looks happy or something like that and she's like, wait, did it say 65? [Laughter] Hope: Shes like, I like that! So it made her day. Serina: Yeah. Jeff: I actually think for women they do have a built in algorithm that knocks off a couple years just to you know, keep the customers happy. Serina: No it added 10 years to mine, no matter what it says 10 years. Hope: Oh really. That's funny! [Laughter] Jeff: The algorithm breaker! Serina: Gosh. [Laughter] The other one that I use is obviously very similar to seeing AI but sometimes I require KNFB Reader when I have more than one page that I want to kind of read continuously. To my knowledge I don't know that you can scan multiple pages in seeing AI and if you can, somebody let me know, cuz I actually like it a little bit better. But sometimes when I'm working from home and I don't have access to my flatbed scanner but I need to read some printed like medical documents or things like that, I'll take out KNFB Reader and just scan a whole bunch of pages all at once and then read it, through it continuously, so that's very helpful, and then also you can save on KNFB Reader in their file system, and I think I saw on the latest update that now they can sync with Google Drive and Dropbox now to, so that's kind of a really cool feature that they've integrated in there now. Jeff: Yeah I like the KNFB Reader when I have like, I might have 10 pages of something to read and I don't want to take a picture of each of them so I put it on double sheet and then batch mode and when I turn the page it'll sense that, so you know you got the page turning then ch-ch-ch. KNFB Reader Voice: Manual picture button, automatic picture, picture from ste..., alert, please place your device on an empty document stand and align the camera with the aperture, okay, button, flash off, button, multi-page mode off, button, multi-page mode on. [Camera Sound Effect] Serina: Do you have a stand that you use with it? Jeff: Yeah I do, its the Fopydo and it was designed by Thomas Wardega, and here he is. Thomas: Fopydo sounds good, and I actually at that time asked my son, and it was actually a play on the on Scooby Doo. So basically this was designed from the ground up for people who are blind and visually impaired and along that process I learned to work with people who are blind so I went through a couple of revisions of the stand before I even started selling it just to make sure that people are happy with using it and that it fulfills whatever is needed from a scanning stand for people who are blind and visually impaired. [Camera Sound Effect] Jeff: It comes with a set of instructions that you can scan, you can put it together, once you got it together it just folds right up and you can put it in a suitcase, it takes up very little real estate. Serina: Oh I need one, and does it work with any phone or? Jeff: Well back when I talked with him he said it would handle, if you balanced it right, and iPad Mini, so I, I guess your your beast of a phone, your iPhone X may work. [Laughter] Serina: Yeah and put the link in the show notes cuz I've been, I thought, I had somebody looking for one before and they were like $50, I'm like mm-hmm, I'll just hold it up, you know. [Laughter] Jeff: Having the batch mode on the KNFB Reader really makes it viable product for someone that's in school that may have to be scanning a lot of pages. Serina: I definitely need one of those. Jeff: Yeah we'll put the link in the show notes and I believe he sells it on Amazon and if you have Amazon Prime, there you go, ten, twelve bucks. Serina: Primes getting expensive though it's like $120.00 starting this year. Hope: I think there's a discount for students. Serina: It's half off for students cuz I had that for a couple of years, and then they got smart and realized that I'm not a student anymore because my school let me keep my student email address for years, and I don't even think I have it anymore now. Now they make you verify by sending in like a schedule. Hope: Oh really? Serina: Yeah. Hope: Similar to Apple music, they do the same thing. Serina: Yeah, and I think Spotify does the same thing too. Hope: Yep. Serina: They got smart. Jeff: So we'll have to put the link in there for Amazon Prime half off for students, that's good news. Serina: Yeah that's it, and half off of Apple music and Spotify, not that those are, those could be productivity apps because if you need music to stay focused. Hope: Technically yeah, exactly, that works! Jeff: Or books. Hope: Yeah. Jeff: Amazon still sells books. Serina: Who orders books anymore? Jeff: Does anybody use Audible for books? Serina: I do not, I totally looked at it, but every time I looked at it I just can't, like I think it's thirteen ninety-nine a month for so many credits and one, the amount of credits you get for that amount is equal to downloading one book, and I haven't found that it's better than just using BARD, because they usually have especially if it's a best-seller what I want anyway. Jeff: Mm-hmm and the BARD app is totally accessible too. Serina: Yeah it's, it's a little old school sometimes, it has its glitches but it gets the job done. Hope: It can be yeah, exactly. Jeff: But it's, it's something that if you do send in a report and stuff like that they'll fix it? We can hope for the best right Hope? Hope: Yeah exactly, yeah sure, I'll write them, I'll give them a good report! Jeff: There you go. Hope: Sure. [Laughter] Serina: Well and it's hard because I know, I think that's run by the Library of Congress so that probably takes like an act of Congress just to get a glitch fixed you know. Jeff: Oh good one! Serina: I didn't mean it to be all cheesy but it's kind of funny. Jeff: Yeah it is, it is, it's nice when things work and you know, you were talking about seeing AI when you open it up short text just starts. I got an app called Drafts, just like the seeing AI, when you open it up it just works the short text is working, do you open it up and the cursors waiting up in the upper left-hand corner and you can start typing, you don't have to open up a new file. The neat thing is if you're in a meeting and you're taking notes and you can set it for certain increments of minutes that pass by and then next time like you open your phone, say it closed, it'll start a new file automatically. Serina: Well that's cool. Jeff: So you're not adding to your recipe you wrote two days ago that's still sitting there, do you want to save it, you don't know if you should save it, it automatically, so if you set it up for 10 minutes, if 10 minutes goes by, it saves it, and opens up a new one, just ready to go, so it's like a new sheet of scratch pad for you, can actually do some markups on it, yeah share it anywhere you want, it's really cool. I do the cut and paste and then just pop it into an email, bang! Serina: I like that, is that a free up too? Jeff: Yeah Drafts is free, I think it's called Drafts 5, there is a professional upgrade, a pro version and that is $20 a year or two dollars a month, but you can do a lot with just the Drafts app. I just love that because when you just want to take down a note, I don't like going into, I use pages because it syncs up with my apple orchard but when I'm at someplace where the meetings starting and I open up pages, you know it has to load up, it goes to the recent, and it seems like, you know all the gears have to spin around five times before anything happens, but this one opens up just bang, it's ready to go. Serina: I especially have that problem using the native Notes app on the iOS devices. Ever since they made it where you've got some notes on your iPhone, some on iCloud, some on Google Drive, or Dropbox or wherever, it's so hard for me to figure out where my notes are anymore that I just don't use that app anymore. Jeff: And that's my second app that I was going to talk about, it's the files app in iOS platform on the iPhone. Files, if you don't know where it went because it says, oh it's stored on the iCloud, or on the desktop in the iCloud, or on the iCloud Drive or wherever, and you start hunting around, but if you go to files and go to most recent, it'll check all those files, all those different drives, all the different places on your phone and everything, but if you go to recent and then if you click up on top you can go back and actually go specifically only to one area where you think it is, but if you put it on all, its checking all those drives that you have synced up with it and you can usually find it, so when I get lost for a second I just open up files and go to the most recent and there it is. Serina: That's a good tip, I didn't know that. I never really knew the point of the files app. Jeff: Yeah check it out, open it up and just see, and you'll see what you've been doing lately. Seirna: So I have one more that you do not know that is my favorite apps to use, any guesses? Jeff: Hope, what do you think it is? Hope: Hmmm, Uber, no it's not productivity, nevermind. [Laughter] Serina: Well technically it is, I do use Uber and Lyft a lot for work actually because I have to go as part of my job, I have to be at high schools and things like that and I am almost an exclusive Lyft user personally. Jeff: And why Lyft over Uber? Serina: I just have found just with my personal experience in the city that I live in that I've had better luck with Lyft drivers as far as friendliness and I have a service animal so, I've never been rejected on Uber, I'm actually, the only place I was was actually on Lyft. I found that the cars have been cleaner and the drivers just seem friendlier and with Uber I specifically am NOT a fan of the, if we wait more than two minutes, we're gonna charge you policy. Hope: Oh that's not good. Serina: Yeah that's a newer policy, maybe in the last six months and that policy just really bothers me especially when you're visually impaired. Drivers will say they're there and you're like where? You know, and if they're automatically gonna charge you, I think it's, I don't, I guess it's maybe like five dollars, if the driver has to wait I believe it's more than two minutes, like that's stressful, it's already nerve-racking like being like, hey I've got a service animal, are they gonna drive right past me, are they gonna pick me up, and then to know they're also gonna charge me an extra five bucks if I can't find them. And then they also tend to do the walk here and meet your driver thing. Jeff: Oh yeah. Serina: And I've never had that happen with Lyft no matter, I've been in downtown Denver and that's not happened before, but Uber will send you up a random parking lot or something to meet your driver. Hope: Oh wow! No thank you. Serina: Yeah so that's more why I'm Lyft exclusive, and then on the driver side I'm not quite sure how it breaks down, I don't remember how much the drivers get but I know with Uber it's not like a set percentage that the drivers get as far as, like I think it with Lyft the drivers get 75% of the fares With Uber, nobody really knows what percentage of the fare they get because they can, I've had drivers say like, yeah I've done rides Denver to you know, the DIA Airport and sometimes I get 60, sometimes I get a hundred, like there's no, I guess transparency with it. Jeff: Mmm-hm. Serina: And I can only speak to you know what I'm told, but I just personally feel better about using Lyft and for those who don't know, Lyft also released an update to their service dog policy saying that an allergy or a fear of animals is not a valid reason to not pick up an individual with a service animal and I feel like that's a very strong policy, and that's telling you where they stand on that very clearly, and I'm not, I'm not sure if Uber has come out as strong as they did. But that's all for a whole another podcast, you have to use all that when we talk about transportation. [Laughter] Jeff: No that's, that's good information because in my neck of the woods my wife uses Lyft, I use Uber and yet, I've been noticing that at certain peak times the price goes way up and other times it's low, and the waiting time changes, but you know, if it were two minutes, it's sometimes it's as low as thirty seven cents, but other times it's higher, you know, so things, I think it's the area you're in that really has, it makes a difference between which one you use, it is productivity because you got to get places and it's nice to know you can get there. Serina: And on time and on your own time. Jeff: Good. Serina: But that was a really good guess that brought on a whole another discussion, I liked it. [Laughter] Serina: But honestly we're on the app right now. Jeff: Ahh, zoom zoom. [Laughter] Serina: But part of my job is to train other people and to hold conference calls and things like that, and to my knowledge as far as like a true training platform where you can record and share your screen and things like that, I found that Zoom is the most accessible system out there that's also used by like companies all over the place. I know Skype is out there, but I don't know if Skype lets you like record the calls and things like that, I don't, like independently, not by pushing it through a different software but just right in the program recording it and having that access to be able to share your screen and still use your PowerPoint effectively and things like that. Jeff: Mm-hmm, and we're doing a neat thing for the first time here and we didn't know if we could do it but Hope sat beside us waiting patiently for us, but we figured it out and we're recording on two ends right now. Serina: Unless I pushed the wrong button again which is very possible. [Laughter] Jeff: Another cliffhanger, stay tuned next week when we find out! Serina: That will be our opener next week. Guess what I actually did it right! Jeff: You know, I'm starting to like Zoom because it's like I can't even tell you, you guys are here, because typically when we're using Skype in my headphones, I have this hiss when other people aren't talking so there's continuous hisses going on and then in the editing phase. So Zoom's really good and I really like the feature where you can send an email and people can just click on the link and they connect right up. Serina: Yep, it makes it really really easy. Hope: So a question I have, you mentioned sharing your screen, how accessible is that with voiceover? I heard through the grapevine that the voice-over will read actually what's on the screen. I don't know if it's true or not? Serina: So I haven't had a chance to test that because at work we don't use any Max, and then when I'm on a Zoom call and I am a participant I'm not usually on my iPhone. Hope: Right. Serina: So if you are leading the meeting and you're sharing your screen, it's actually pushing through a video of your screen, so it's almost like, I just imagine like a webcam watching your screen or whatever. Hope: Right, so I would assume it's not accessible then. Serine: Correct, but and I don't remember the keystroke, maybe Jeff knows, but I know in the latest major update to the OS on the Macs and iOS, you can have it essentially perform an OCR on the screen like live, with the software on the Mac, but I haven't had a chance to truly test that out just because I'm not usually on Apple devices when I'm participating. The way that I work around that, because I do have to present to individuals that use screen readers as well sometimes, is I usually will send my PowerPoint out ahead of time so that they can follow along while they're listening to the meeting, but then they also have access to the chat panel and everything else, it's just the visual of the video that they're not quite having access to but I, I just send it out ahead of time. Jeff: Yeah I haven't dug too deep into this, but Serina told me about Jonathan Mosen's book, and he did a full fledge book on using Zoom for calls and meetings and stuff like that, and yeah, I believe you can get that on Mosen's consulting on the website, and we'll put a link to that in the show notes. Serina: Yeah the book is called "Meet Me Accessibly" and it's very current based on, because I listen to maybe four or five chapters so far, and it sounds like he recorded it maybe in June of 17 and he does a really good job of letting you hear the screen reader and how it interacts with everything and going through all the different settings and explaining what exactly it is that they all do. Jeff: Yes he does he has quite a few books on Mosen's consulting so when you get there, just look around and he has tutorials on a lot of different topics, he's into the Mac, he's into, no not the Mac as much anymore, but he's into the PC, Microsoft. Serina: All these plugs Jeff, you're going to need to get some royalties! [Laughter] Jeff: Hopefully I get their name right and their website right. Another app that I have that I use and some people laugh at this, I use Dictionary Thesaurus Plus, and if you get the dictionary you can upgrade and you get, its a combination of Dictionary and Thesaurus Plus and I get the word of the day, and I'm just waiting to get that specific word to send Serina because she laughed at me when I talked about this app before. But it's just kind of neat because in there, they have flashcards and I'm on the bottom, they're not labeled but I figured out what two of them are, flashcards, so I took insight today just when I was skipping around there and I made a flashcard so on one side it says insight, on the other side it says the definition, so someone could actually go through there if they have a 10 word list that need to know or learn, like they're in school and they could actually input the word, get the dictionary, and there's also a button that says go to page, so if you want more definition you can just click on it, brings it right to the dictionary page and it's just kind of a neat resource if you're into that you know. If you want to know what words mean. Serina: Well that could you, I mean you just brought up a good point though, that could be a really good study aid for somebody if you're in a class where there's a lot of maybe theories, or specific definitions you need to know, you could load all those in there and while you're on the bus or whatever kind of be going through those, probably a more fun way than just reading the book. Jeff: Yeah and that's why I did it, like when I took Spanish, I made, I made note cards. I took these note cards and I brailled on one side, and then on the other side I had some other Braille, the translation in English to what it was, so I could just go through, and people were like joking with me like, Oh flashcards, it's like it's something for the kids or something, but hey, it's a good learning tool because it's just repetitious and pretty soon it just starts coming to you. Serina: Mmm-hmm. Jeff: So I dug right in when I saw they had flashcards, I went wow! So I really like that and it's, uh I think there's a fee for the upgrade, might be a few dollars but you can get download at all for free and test it and then in the in-app you can upgrade. Serina: Nice! Jeff: Well I think we got a handful of apps here that you know through experience we, we've been trying, we've been using and stuff. Some of these apps if you find them useful click on the show notes, download them, check them out, and if you have any feedback or suggestions on the apps that you want us to do on our next show, give us a jingle, drop us an email at JobInsights@blindabilities.com, on Twitter at Job Insights VIP, and uh, let us know what you think. Serina: What are we talking about next tiem John....John? Wow! Sorry! [Laughter] Jeff: Well Sarah! [Laughter] Jeff: What will our next one be on? Serina: I don't know, we have so many topics, normally I'm like, let's take this, let's let Hope pick the next topic, no pressure! Hope: No pressure yeah right mm-hmm! Let's do transportation since we kind of talked a little bit about it in this one, that would make sense. Serina: Getting to work. Hope: Yeah, absolutely. Serina: Perfect. Jeff: Getting to work, school, college. Hope: Yeah. Jeff: There you go Sarah! Serina: Stop it! [Laughter] Jeff: And if you want to contact Hope, she's on Twitter. Serina: If you want people to have it? Hope: Yeah my Twitter is Fidelco, capital F as in Foxtrot, I, D as in Delta, E, L, C, O, 4, the number four, ever. My email address is hopepaulos@gmail.com, so hopepaulos@gmail.com. Jeff: Well Hope thank you very much for coming on to Job Insights, it's really neat to have you and we're gonna have you back as soon as possible here for our next round table. Hope: Thank you so much Jeff and Serina, it was wonderful being here. I appreciate it! Serina: Yep, you have a great day! Hope: Thank you! Jeff: Do you know it's nearly midnight and you said have a great day? Serina: Well this will come out during the day. [Laughter] [Music] Jeff: It was a real pleasure having Hope Paulos join us on the show today, all the way from Maine, and next week when we're talking about transportation all the way from New York we'll have Joe De Niro, so stay tuned to the next episode of Job Insights. And a big shout-out to Chee Chau for his beautiful music and you can follow him on Twitter at lcheechau, as always thank you for listening, we hope you enjoyed, and until next time bye-bye [Multiple voices] When we share what we see through each other's eyes, We can then begin to bridge the Gap between the limited expectations and the realities of Blind Abilities. Jeff: For more podcast with the blindness perspective, check us out on the web at www.blindabilities.com, on twitter at BlindAbilities, download our app from the app store, Blind Abilities, that's two words, or send us an email at info@blindabilities.com, thanks for listening.  

Jason Jaynes: @jasoncjaynes Jeff Wilson: @ProfDumpster Show Notes: 00:53 - “Professor Dumpster” and Founding Kasita 05:33 - The Startup Industry 07:45 - Building the Kasita Team and Creating the Design 12:25 - Integrating Devices 16:33 - Challenges of Building These Ecosystems 24:36 - Controlling the Ecosystem: Will there be third-party developers and applications? 30:16 - Device Cohesion and User Experience 33:23 - Privacy Resources: Data for the People: How to Make Our Post-Privacy Economy Work for You by Andreas Weigend Kasita is hiring! Transcript: CHARLES: Hello, everybody and welcome to The Frontside Podcast, Episode 78. My name is Charles Lowell, a developer here at The Frontside and your podcast host-in-training. With me today are Jeff and Jason from Kasita. Now, Kasita is one of the most exciting products that I think we've gotten to work on here at Frontside in the last five years. We're going to be just talking about it because, I think it touches on a lot of the aspects of what makes software development and startups and just the emerging economy exciting. I'm really thankful that we get to have you all on the podcast. Welcome Jeff and welcome Jason. JEFF: Thanks for having us. JASON: Excited to be here. Thanks, Charles. CHARLES: Now Jeff, you are the founder of Kasita, the CEO and I believe your official title over there is 'Professor Dumpster.' Maybe you could actually unpack for us a little bit of what does that title mean? How did Kasita come about and what is it today? JEFF: A couple of years ago, I did a radical, social experiment around housing. I went and sold everything I own for a dollar an item out of a 3000-square foot house and moved into a 33-square foot used trash dumpster for a year. The idea of that project was to live in 1% the size of an average American home and try to use 1% the energy and water of the average American home. The project took a little bit of a twist, you might say and about part way through it when the dumpster started getting tricked out, I started thinking about the whole nature of housing and how we need to do something different and how that grand future probably would not be a gated community of dumpsters. CHARLES: Now, I assume you cleaned out the dumpster before you actually went to live in it. JEFF: Yeah, it was a fixer-upper. We give it a bit of a scrub and did some testing to make sure there wasn't anything nasty left in there. That went for about a year and a couple of months after that, I actually first set down with Jason because he was the only person that I knew in the entire startup scene, in the entire world. He said, "Wilson, you had some crazy ass ideas like this dumpster thing you told me about. This one might actually work, this Kasita thing." Here we are today, we're working together. CHARLES: Wow. This was something you just did on a lark. You didn't have the idea of starting this business but it was actually through the process of actually living in this dumpster for a year that the idea emerged or was there a master plan going in? JEFF: I don't know, Jason do you remember any kind of master plan when I first told you about the dumpster? JASON: No. When we first met to talk about the dumpster, it was an early morning, I believe in 2010 or 2011 and you're incubating the idea. At that point in time, there was nothing on your mind or you aren't looking towards the future of housing at all. You were just trying to figure out how you were going to move into a dumpster and people thought you would be crazy. Of course, I've validate it and I thought people would think you would be crazy. CHARLES: That is a pretty radical idea, the future of housing being 1% of what it is now. How do you see that playing out? How is that possible? How do you shift people's mindset away from that? JEFF: One of the bigger things we're trying to do with Kasita, there needs to be a massive shift in the wider way that we live in our homes. As everything else is moving towards on demand and as a service and as everything's being sort of productized, those are some of the core ideas behind Kasita. We think about Kasita a lot more like an iPhone or a Tesla than we would think about it as a single family home or an apartment block or even a micro-unit. That's why Jason and I are standing together here today is I represent a lot of ways, a kind of vision and origin story of Kasita but in a lot of ways, Jason represents the future of the software and integrated IoT that's going into these things. CHARLES: There is definitely a lot going into these things. I remember when Jason first started telling me about it because it is like an iPhone or a Tesla but, I think especially the Tesla is a great analogy because you have not just like a normal software or even really a hardware project, you've got architectural concerns. You've got manufacturing concerns. You've got, I assumed geopolitical concerns in terms of the politics around zoning and housing and real estate, all rolled up into a big startup. When I think startup, I think let's get a web application up and running and we're providing some service. This is cross-cutting at least five industries, it feels like if not more. I'm curious, what's been the experience in terms of wrangling that aspect because I think it is very unique in a startup today but it got me wondering is this going to be the normal in five years? JEFF: We've seen a movement recently in the venture community. Even a few years ago when we first started raising money was highly-regulated industries are hard, hardware is hard, "Thank you very much. We're going to go looking for our next two Stanford computer science dropouts to shove into a wee work and not have to deal with all of this kind of stuff." I think I've seen a shift to where people from the individual level up to the folks funding these things, see the massive opportunity in highly-regulated complex problems like housing and you're right. Jason and I are looking out over our shop floor here where we've got guys out there that are plumbers or traditional electricians all the way upstairs here to folks that have been mayor pro tem of large cities with PhDs. Bridging all of those individuals into a startup culture and then looking at the complexity of the landscape from a regulatory standpoint, autonomous cars are a breeze relative to the kind of complexity we're dealing with. CHARLES: Did you know this complexity walking in or was it a classic overoptimism? JEFF: No, it wasn't classic overoptimism. I'm always asked, "Are you a designer? Are you an architect? Are you a real estate developer? Are you a technology guy?" and I think if I would have been any of those besides a guy living in a dumpster, I wouldn't ever been crazy enough to try this. It's one of our core precepts as well. Jason had never worked with IoT stuff before. Our head of manufacturing used to build LEDs for Philips. Our quality guy inspected Cadillacs. Our manufacturing engineer built Boeing jets. The ideas that we're not pulling a lot of people from these traditional industries, we're pulling smart people that are passionate about our mission and to solve this, what is really a Rubik's Cube of a problem. JASON: Yeah, I think the other thing to add to that that Jeff is not getting himself enough credit is that from very early on, Jeff always looked at Kasita as a product that was going to incorporate multiple disciplines. He was very careful in how he orchestrate it and built the team to make sure that he was bringing the right expertise and the right areas together and then forcing those different disciplines to figure out how to meld and work together to build the Kasita. But the Kasita was from the beginning just about building a micro-urban home. It was about building a product of which part of that was a home, where people live obviously, but there's a whole lot more to it that we're working towards. I think even go back and Jeff, it might be relevant for you to talk a little bit about the approach that you took to just create an initial design for Kasita, which I think is revolutionary in itself. JEFF: A big part of our DNA was product from conception. When I was living in the dumpster, I recruited a couple of the top architects in the country really to help me turn that dumpster into a home. The way you're trained in architecture school, I think a lot of folks come in there with Buckminster Fuller kind of dreams and you're told pretty quick that you better bring things up to code and you better make things that sell or you're not going to eat when you get out of here. The idea was that we would start off with a product designer and not design a home. The kind of struggles in the dumpster taught me that we needed to go at a different approach so I went and recruited an industrial designer. One of the requirements for that person that he or she had never designed a home. This person had lived under a staircase and never designed a home so I said, "You're perfect." CHARLES: I like that and I'm curious, Jason from your perspective, what was it like to have gone through this? It sounds like what you're doing is asking people to bring their expertise but not their set of expectations like the industrial designer. What was it like for you coming primarily from the software development world to step into this pan-technological realm and what was that experience like and what were the things that stretched you and you found surprising? JASON: I think early on, I realized that it was going to be a bit more challenging maybe than I thought. Really, what it required was me to think outside of my discipline. Obviously, not only from the perspective of what we were doing on the IoT frontend, how we were melding software and hardware together but then going all the way over to the physical building structure and thinking about on a weekly, daily, hourly basis on how we are interacting with the other disciplines. An early example was, and this is one that I remember that's quite funny is one area that we wanted to make sure that we had covered in our research and understanding from IoT perspective was smart locks and how we were going to provide a smart locks for the data. We went out and did a lot of investigation, brought a number of leading smart lock solutions into the lab and tested them and narrow our list down. Then I recall vividly walking over to the architects to excitedly tell them we had selected our smart lock that we were going to use. They very quickly inform me that that lock wouldn't work because we needed a mortise lock and not a standard door lock. I realized that you can't work in a vacuum and just solve your problems. You have to be working together to make sure the solutions and the products you're selecting at work in accord with the overall design. That's continued to manifest itself. Every day, I'm down on the manufacturing floor, working directly with the electricians and others to make sure that our equipment is placed properly, where are we going to place our equipment, how are we routing around plumbing and pipes and other things that exist there and how are we locating things properly. It's an ongoing experience, which has definitely taken me out of my traditional software role but it's done so in a very exciting way and I've enjoyed it. It's just realizing that you have to actively be communicating across the organization with all groups and really, you can't take anything for granted. CHARLES: The number of different disciplines and technologies is really staggering, even if you limit it to just considering the set of devices that you're integrating. I was actually hoping we could talk a little bit about that. Now inside each Kasita, at least the ones that you're building right now, how many different devices do you have? How do you take all these different devices and turn them into a product or integrate them into something that itself is one product? JASON: If you were just to look at the technology bill of materials, what the products are that we're incorporating into our current Kasita design, there is around 50 different products and product parts that we're bringing together to build out the technology solution. If you narrow that down to what the end user is actually seeing and looking at, there are about seven noticeable products that the end user would see or they would recognize everything from a Sonos connecting amplifier to an Amazon Dot to a Nest Thermostat. Obviously, getting to that list of bill of materials and deciding on that 'subassembly of technology pieces,' took us quite some time in a number of iterations and a lot of outside engagement and talking to experts and trying to decide what were the best devices to bring in. But the other side of the equation was something that we kind of decided very early on in the process and kind of thinking the world of first principles was that, we wanted to make sure that Kasita was the primary interface to the user. We didn't want somebody else sitting between us and the end user. We wanted to be able to work with other products but we still felt at the end of the day that the end user, when they were living inside of a Kasita, when they were controlling the Kasita, when they were changing the state of the Kasita, they needed to go through our interface. With that as an initial first principle, you can begin to imagine that all the other parts of the system architecture and the way that we design things, the way that we select products and built things, it begin to derive themselves. Everything from that, immediately we needed an app and lo and behold. We were able, fortunately to work with you guys, the Frontside, to help us get our initial app concept up and going. It went from there and I can talk more about it. CHARLES: I think I really like that as a first principle. I really just want to inject a vigorous sense of agreement because I think it's so important, especially when this is the place where you're living. You want to imbue that inhabitant with a sense of ownership and control. I don't know if you would be able to do that if there were a bunch of different touch points and it didn't feel integrated under one product. In other words, this is my home, this is my Kasita. Is that the idea behind making sure that there was really only one interface? JEFF: We prefer to say 'Mi Kasita.' CHARLES: I love it. JASON: Absolutely, that's the idea. I think from a consumer perspective, if you've ever personally gone out and ventured through the halls of Home Depot or Best Buy and purchased some smart products off the shelf and brought them into your house and try to get them up and running, you very quickly learn that. It's not only challenging to get these devices connected in a way that you can control them but there's also this notion of there's an app for that. Every physical device you ended up putting in your how, has its own app for control and that becomes very overwhelming in a very short amount of time for the user. We did not want that to be the case with the Kasita. We wanted them to walk in the door from day one and immediately feel at home and feel like they have complete control of the Kasita, in much the same way when you go purchase an iPhone or you purchase a new Garmin watch or you purchase a new Android device, you're up and running with that ecosystem and you're interacting with that interface. We wanted people to be interacting with the Kasita interface to control their home because that's part of the product. CHARLES: I like that. It must present some unique challenges because I think you said it best. Every single device that you have comes with its own ecosystem and that ecosystem has its own APIs, its own web interfaces, its own applications and though there are walls around those ecosystems, what are some of the challenges you encounter in trying to punch holes through those walls so that you can hand information and control from one ecosystem to the other while providing a seamless experience to the user? JEFF: When you're talking about that, Jason one of the things that is often left out of this equation is at this specific point in space-time, it's very difficult to do that. But then to have any sort of semblance of planning for the future and future-proofing the system as developers usually call it, one of the reasons why you don't see a lot of Nest thermostats in multifamily development is because a developer knows that they're not going to ever have to replace a normal light switch. If it's a Lutron switch or if it is a Nest thermostat at some point, it's going to have to be replaced. Not only the physical replacement of the stuff but from a software side, making sure that we can continue to communicate with these devices in the future, I think is a big problem to solve. JASON: That's absolutely right. I think very early on, we recognize and realize that we were going to have to build software and a component that acted, if you will as a gateway for sitting between the end user and the end devices and facilitated the control of the end devices. Obviously, being able to accomplish that, one of the challenges is and I think, Charles you've seen this in your world because I know you've got experience with IoT is this whole proliferation of standards and protocols like if we're going to talk to the lightbulb or we're talking via Z-Wave or ZigBee, or do we have to go through a Philips Hue hub because that's the only way to actually communicate with it. Is there a separate way via Thread or Bluetooth you communicate with this device? In a very quick fashion, you get to this point where you can imagine that you've got a physical hardware controller that has four different radios in talking to four different device types. One for talking to Z-Wave, one for talking to ZigBee and it becomes overwhelming. We did a lot of research across the protocols that were available, mapping them across the devices. Early on, we were excited about the potential of Z-Wave but more recently, where we've shifted our attention quite honestly is looking for devices and device manufacturers who see the opportunity and Wi-Fi enabling their hardware devices and then providing either direct control of those devices in an IP-centric way over a local area network or even through the cloud. What that affords us back to Jeff's future-proofing concept is if you have Wi-Fi up and running and the device can get on the Wi-Fi network and there's a way to communicate with it, then it makes it a lot easier for us to sit between the user and that device and send commands and control that device. The other side of that, which I think continues to be a challenge and will be a challenged for the foreseeable future is a lot of the device manufacturers to the point that you brought up are still forcing you to go through the cloud to communicate with their devices. They don't allow for a local area network communication directly with the device and there's good reasons for doing that. But what that means is if you lose internet connectivity, you no longer have control of that device. CHARLES: Obviously, you've got probably pretty strict criteria about what it takes for a device to be integrated with Kasita. Is that a nonstarter right there? JASON: It's actually not. A nonstarter with be the device communicates via protocol that we can't interface with or the device works over a Wi-Fi network but has no API for controlling cloud or local. The third piece of that equation and fundamentally is the final nonstarter and really probably should be the first one and it's one that we take into consideration every time is that there should be a physical override for the user if internet connectivity is lost. What I mean by that is if we select a smart switch and the smart switch goes offline and there's no more connectivity, the user has still be able to walk to the wall and press the power button and the light should come on. There always has to be an ability for the user to fall back to the same old fashioned physical control in the absence of Internet connectivity or local area network connectivity. But the primary things are ability to fall back to physical control, ability to communicate over Wi-Fi or standard IP-based protocol, then the third one would be some form of API access, either remotely via the cloud or locally via the local area network. CHARLES: Wow, that's actually a great list. It's got me wondering, obviously you've encountered devices that have fallen on both sides of that divide. Do you feel like that's just a blip and we're going to be trending more towards devices that are happily and easily integrated or are we still seeing some moving and jostling as people maybe try and corner little parts of the market and make their device deliberately make it not easy so that you'll try and force people into that ecosystem? JASON: The latter, however we have two guerillas in the market right now that I think are helping drive the other direction in the way of Amazon and Google with Google Home and Amazon Echo. What they're doing is they're saying, "If we sit in the center and one of the interfaces for voice control for the user to control their home, then we're only going to work with devices that we can communicate with and that we can control through the cloud," and quite frankly, what that does is it puts the burden back on the device manufacturer. You could actually say three if you threw Apple in there. I don't want to leave Apple out with HomeKit. But my point is that the device manufacturer now has to find a way that the end device can either communicate via standard TCP/IP network-based connectivity that we all know and love from a developer community perspective or they have to insert a hub into the equation that can handle that form of communication and then communicate over its own proprietary wireless connection, which is in the case of Philips Hue, it's exactly what they do. JEFF: I would draw analogies here to some people get really tired of this, particularly the real estate people of me talking about the iPhone but that kind of leap into and integrated piece of hardware and software. There were certain things happening in 2007 that didn't make the iPhone or something like it, something that might happen but something that had to happen. This kind of cold death to the universe that we could see with all of these walled-off ecosystems, go in their directions and iterating into a space to a nobody owns anything and nothing talks, I think Kasita is a solution to that to where we're looking like combine all this stuff under one roof and build a single user experience, much like not having to pull your Palm Pilot out of one pocket, you're Rio MP3 player out of another and you're your Razor or whatever it was out of the other like integrating into a single experience, rather than a sort of convenience, which is what a lot of the IoT spaces right now in these walled-off ecosystems. CHARLES: That actually makes a lot of sense and clarifies it in my mind quite a bit. It clarifies one thing but then, immediately raises new questions. When the iPhone first came out, you had a set of basic integrations between your MP3 player and your web browsing and your calling and calendaring, so and so forth. Then, I don't know what was it like, a year and a half later, they actually came out with an SDK so that you could actually develop apps -- third-party developers could actually develop. Sell and distribute in apps -- to the iPhone. We're all really happy with the way that worked out. I guess my question is does this analogy carry forward then also for Kasita? Is there a future where you have third-party developers who are actually selling integrations or apps that would run on this integrated IoT product that is Kasita or am I stretching the analogy too far? JASON: I think the analogy is good with the exception that we're not looking to control the entire IoT ecosystem in a way that Apple maybe had look to control the mobile phone ecosystem with providing all of that in one box and the iPhone. We want to work with numerous hardware providers and even from that perspective, numerous folks that want to provide interfaces into our system. As we develop an architected Kasita technology system, we've taken an API-first approach and that's allowed us to build our user application layer right on top of that API but in the future, we see the opportunity to work with third-party developers to extend that, up on that and build their own interfaces to the end user. Then on the other side of the equation, if you think about what's actually controlling the devices, we're architecting that system in a way that a hardware manufacturer could take an SDK and add Kasita support for their product directly in and make it plug and play when it gets to the Kasita. We definitely see the opportunity, Charles to reach out and allow everybody to be part of this. We consider it quite frankly, a necessary thing. But we don't also want to pretend that we would look to control the whole ecosystem because we just don't have that level of scale, if you will. JEFF: And you know -- CHARLES: Not yet. JEFF: Yeah, and we try to keep our ego in the dumpster, so to speak as well. CHARLES: What would a third-party app even look like in the context of Kasita? Have you thought of like what are some things that you might be able to do? JEFF: If you don't want to call it directly an app, I think the first stage -- Jason and I haven't talked about this -- maybe more like an Alexa Skill to where you can have the Kasita do certain sets of tasks around a particular experience, which we're already building into the system the idea of moods but I don't know in terms of apps. JASON: Yeah, it's actually a really good idea. Even though we haven't talked about it, it always scares me a little bit when my boss is coming up with ideas on the fly that we have to implement but -- JEFF: But actually we will have our first -- we're going to call it a skill app, a Kasita skill app. We'll be releasing that say, October 1st. CHARLES: You heard it here first, folks. JASON: To take Jeff's idea a little further, I think that is an interesting concept when you think about the Kasita as being an end product and you provide interfaces whether it's the ability for people to write skills that tie into the Amazon Echo or an IFTTT-type capability. The Kasita, as a whole can be controlled -- all the lighting, the sound, all the different temperature, etcetera -- so now you're asking end users to write skills, to control the entire state of the building or of the home and not just doing it on a one-off basis writing skill to turn this light on and off or set the thermostat to this level. You basically box all of that together and make it much easier for people to get from Point A to Point B through our system. JEFF: Could you say that we're turning the entire Kasita into a board for people to play with, like treat the Kasita as your breadboard? JASON: I think there is some opportunity for that to the degree that will allow the user to have that much flexibility on the hardware side. I think it is still up for question but I think there's a lot of opportunity there, Charles and not only inside of the Kasita but then you can begin to see other applications as Kasita begin to multiply and people use them from many purposes. Let's take a sample of somebody owns 10 Kasitas and they use them as Airbnb properties and they allow users that live in Kasitas to come in for a short period of time into their Kasita and bring their Kasita profile with them. Immediately, they can make the Airbnb Kasita feel exactly like their Kasita feels when they're at home. Those are some interesting opportunities and ways that we see this technology potentially evolving. CHARLES: So it will have the same moods, the same behaviors. Any customizations or third-party extensions would also be in effect provided they were software-based? JASON: Yep. CHARLES: That would actually be quite amazing. I guess the other question I have in terms of hackability of Kasita is we're very interested in the IoT space and very interested in these products and we have some side projects here at Frontside also like I do a bunch of hobby stuff at home, where I try to integrate a bunch of these things. But one of the things that I really like about what you all are doing is that it's very much 'omakase' in the sense of there's an option of 10 smart locks, there's an option of this thermostat, there's an option of a million different devices but what we've done or what you've done is selected ones that we know are going to work well together. We've built the software, the control systems, both computer control systems and human control systems to get them to work together as a cohesive product. I would love to do is say, "I would just like to buy that product for my house," even though my lame tinkerings with smart switches, smart locks and audio controls and lighting, which are fun and gratifying the first few times but they don't really play nice together, give you that super sweet feeling. JEFF: This goes to the overall philosophy of Kasita. We want a turnkey, one-click housing solution. Not only for finding you a place to rent so that you're not fishing around on Craigslist for roommate or having to pay some outrageous fee in New York. You don't have to go mattress shopping. At some point, you should just have to show up with your iPhone and your toothbrush. When you start thinking about the technology inside, it's almost like folks don't really care what kind of Foxconn chip is in their iPhone or even if it was Foxconn that put it there, they just want it to work and they want it to be seamless and turnkey. It sets up a whole philosophy around, not only our smart kid in the Kasitas but it shouldn't even be a smart kid anymore. At some point, it should just be an experience so ultimately, what sort of UX inside of the Kasita are all of these things bringing you. I shouldn't have to really look at a blue glowing dot that lights up every time I walk by it to be at a comfortable temperature in my house. I shouldn't need a black tube over on my desktop that I yell commands at. I just talk or it should anticipate those actions. That's a future that I look forward to in Kasita to where we move away from having to tinker with devices and even knowing what those devices are to a true-like depth of experience. CHARLES: I like that a lot. Now, one thing that we haven't covered. We touched on it a little bit at the very beginning of the show when we talked about people feeling in control and feeling like they're truly the owner of the space is the issue of privacy. Obviously, there's a lot of a user's behavior that's going to be passing through software channels as their intentions move through the devices in the Kasita. Of course, all of these devices, they have their own ecosystems, their own vendors so how do you ensure that people's data is going to be protected, especially as it moves through potentially a bunch of different public clouds. JEFF: Yes, we gave a lot of thoughts to this. Actually, Jason put me on to this book called 'Data for the People' by Andreas Weigend. We took some inspiration on that, from that and set out on what we call it the four cornerstones of this future of the connected home. Those are agency, transparency, security and then the actual benefit that you get from this home. I gave a talk at South by called, 'The final frontier of AI is in your living room.' If that isn't black mirror, creepy enough to attract enough people, I don't know what is. In that talk, I won't take them out of order. First, we need to make sure that we're focused on transparency. Do people know what's actually being collected on them? I've been toting around my iPhone for 10 years. I'm pretty sure they know everywhere that I have been since then. I'm not really all that sure. Second, agency. Can I actually do something about it? Are we allowing people the ability to switch off, switch on, control where that data goes? Then third, security. Are we providing another level of security above what you would get out of the box? I'll let Jason talk about that in a minute. Then, the last is benefit. Am I getting ads? Am I getting a slightly better news feed focused on ads or am I getting my rent subsidized? Am I getting a better user experience, better sleep within the connected home? Those are the ways that we think about that in a bigger level. CHARLES: Is the idea that there's no benefit than it's exploitative? You want to make sure that there's benefit? JASON: Yeah, I think that onus is if you taking individual data and using it, then the onus is on you as a data collector to try to provide benefit back to the end user. If you can't do that, then I think the question should be why are you collecting the data in the first place? our goal is really looking at it from the perspective of if we know when users are turning lights on and off and what they're setting the temperature in their house to and when they're going to sleep at night, when they're waking up because we know when they turn everything off and turn it back on -- JEFF: Or where this things on the floor are from the vacuum robot. JASON: Yeah, exactly. If we have insight into that information, how are we taking that information and combining it in a valuable way that benefits the end user? I think that's the first question that we have to ask when we start looking at the data that we're collecting. But at the same time as Jeff said, that data collection really has to be based on this notion of agency, transparency and privacy or security. An agency is simply I have control over whether my data is collected. Transparency, from the perspective of I understand how my data is being used and where it's being sent and then of course, security, I know that my data is being securely transmitted and stored. When you think about security, we spend a lot of time thinking about not only the data at rest -- once it's been collected is it properly being stored and encrypted and protected -- but then how is that data being transmitted and are we putting the proper fail safes in place to make sure that somebody else can easily gain access and take control of my home and of the things that are important to me by finding back doors into the system and ways to breach them? Those are the cornerstones that we think about and we put first and foremost in our mind as we build out our architecture, build out our system and as we begin to take that data and to turn it back in useful and interesting ways for the end user. CHARLES: I think that's really important. I think it's a great comfort to hear that you all have a framework for thinking about this so that it's going to be integrated into every aspect of it. I think it's just so important, especially when it's something as critical as the space in which you're living. It's good to hear that it's not just an afterthought but that it's something that's been integrated from the start. Well, Jeff, Jason thank you guys so much for coming by and talking with us. I really think that Kasita is an exciting product and I think that it was an exciting project, certainly for us to get to work on, even though we were only seeing a very small sliver of it. We still got to perceive the whole enchilada that you guys were working on and see that just what a unique startup that really is, not just you're moving outside of software, integrating a bunch of different devices, integrating that with a unique home that's going to be designed, architected, manufactured and then thinking, then even rolling it up a degree further about how is this going to be integrated into the urban spaces in which we live. I hope that we see more startups that really engaged all those different disciplines. I think that with the technological changes that are happening, that's more and more a possibility. The price on software, the price on materials, the price on these smart devices is all coming down so it really enables people to take on scopes that might have been just completely impossible, even with someone who's overly optimistic. I hope that people look to it as an inspiration and it really was a great project for us to work on. I also understand that if someone does want to jump into this space and get involved, you all are hiring. JEFF: That's right. We are hiring for a broad range of positions. We're expecting to be doing a lot, more hiring soon. You can go to Kasita.com/Work and at the bottom of the page, you can also see that we have an open house here in Austin every Thursday morning from 9:30 to 11:30. The folks can come in and check out the crib. CHARLES: All right. Fantastic. I certainly really enjoyed getting the tour the space, what was that? Back in March? When you revealed the baby units? JEFF: Yeah, it was March at South by. CHARLES: Yeah, it's really something to see. If you are in Austin or you live here, take the time, go see it. It's really cool. With that, I guess we'll wrap it up. Thank you everybody for listening and as always, you can get in touch with us at @Frontside on Twitter or Frontside.io or send us an email at Contact@Frontside.io. Thank you all and see you next week.