Podcast appearances and mentions of kelly right

Many property management business owners out there struggle with having a bad brand, bad pricing, cheapo clients, a lack of confidence, and more. In today's episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull sit down in-person with property manager and DoorGrow client, Kelly Rafuse, to talk about her journey with property management. You'll Learn [04:53] How to Be Picky with the Clients You Bring on [10:59] Overcoming the “Hustler” Mindset [15:04] Choosing an Effective Brand [21:07] Cheapos, Normals, and Premium Buyers Tweetables  ”As you live and you grow in this business, you learn what makes money and what doesn't.” “ The more confident you are, the more some of these… difficult personality types will kind of abdicate and allow you to lead them.” “ It's better to be at the top than to be competing with the garbage at the bottom.” “ Need is scarcity, need is starving, and need is survival.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Kelly: You know, as you live and you grow in this business, you learn what makes money and what doesn't. And I learned how to manage property the hard way.  [00:00:07] Jason: But you learned it.  [00:00:08] Kelly: Yes.  [00:00:10] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives. And you're interested in growing in business and life. And you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. [00:00:37] You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason Hull, founder and CEO of DoorGrow, and Sarah Hull, the co owner and COO of DoorGrow. And now let's get into the show.  [00:01:13] So our guest today, we're hanging out with Kelly. Kelly, introduce yourself.  [00:01:17] Kelly: Hi there, my name is Kelly Rafuse with Crimson Cape Property Management in Wilkes Barre, Pennsylvania.  [00:01:22] Jason: And you have a really nice logo. Where'd you get that really nice logo?  [00:01:25] Kelly: It's this little mastermind I joined called DoorGrow helped me with that.  [00:01:29] Jason: And it's, I was saying, I think it's cool because it's like you are flying right there. [00:01:33] It's like, it like reminds me of you.  [00:01:37] Kelly: Well, yeah. I had this Marvel Comics stud fetish, so.  [00:01:41] Jason: Yes. Okay. You're the Marvel comic gal. All right. So really excited to be hanging out. We're actually in Pennsylvania because this is kind of the neck of the woods Sarah grew up in and managed properties nearby and you manage properties in a neighboring market and so. [00:01:59] The same market. The same market. She, yeah. Exact same market.  [00:02:02] Sarah: I left and she has the market.  [00:02:05] Kelly: While you were here, I was just managing my own portfolio.  [00:02:08] Jason: Oh, okay.  [00:02:09] Kelly: And people were coming to me to manage theirs, and that's how I got into this mess.  [00:02:15] Jason: Yeah. Well, give us a little more background on you, Kelly. [00:02:18] How'd you get into property management?  [00:02:20] Kelly: Oh, well, I started off as a real estate investor. You know, buying homes out here in Northeast PA. It's a very good place to invest in property. Cash flow is, I mean, I think cap rates were like 12 percent when I got in. So, I mean, it was huge, and honestly, I was trying to replace my income because I'd gotten as far as I could go in my former career, you know, hit a huge glass ceiling, and realized that, you know, real estate was probably my ticket to freedom. [00:02:45] Jason: What was your former career?  [00:02:47] Kelly: I was on the radio.  [00:02:48] Jason: Yeah, okay, you've got a great voice for it, so.  [00:02:51] Thank you very much.  [00:02:53] Yeah, so you were doing the radio.  [00:02:54] Kelly: Yeah, so I actually got into this market, and I liked it here. I actually, I did my two years and then moved to a bigger market. I was in Hartford, Connecticut for a while. [00:03:03] And then an opportunity to come back presented itself. And I came back because I genuinely like the area. And you know, the inexpensive real estate was an attraction. And then My husband and I got into investing in properties. We built up quite a portfolio. We had 25 units of our own at one point. [00:03:20] We're down to 14 now. We sold a few off that, you know, really weren't moneymakers for us. But, you know, as you live and you grow in this business, you learn what makes money and what doesn't. And I learned how to manage property the hard way.  [00:03:33] Jason: But you learned it.  [00:03:34] Kelly: Yes. I made all the mistakes.  [00:03:37] Jason: Yeah. And that's sometimes learning through mistakes and pain. [00:03:41] I sometimes joke that DoorGrow was built on thousands of mistakes.  [00:03:45] Kelly: You're telling me. And I will introduce My biggest pain point in just a second here. So what caused me to join DoorGrow is my husband's a real estate broker. And so people were banging on his door. "Can you manage my property? Can you manage my property?" It's like, "well, I don't do that, but my wife does."  [00:04:03] Jason: Yeah.  [00:04:04] Kelly: And I'm like, well, I can't manage their property. I don't have a real estate license. And so it was a whole year of, "come on! Just get the license. Just do it! Just do it. Come on!" So I got the license. And I took on one of his investor clients, and I joined DoorGrow, like all in the same day. [00:04:23] And what I found out when I joined DoorGrow was I never should have taken on that client.  [00:04:27] Jason: That was the price of tuition. It's one of the key lessons that defines you in business, which is you learn those lessons and not take on bad clients. Well, I mean, for us, it's been really inspiring and exciting to see your journey as an entrepreneur and see you kind of get all this ready and get things developed and start to grow. [00:04:46] And so, we were talking about it, like, what should we talk about on the podcast today with Kelly? And you had mentioned.  [00:04:53] Sarah: Yeah, I had said, I think for me, one of the biggest shifts that I've seen in Kelly again and again and again is shifts in mindset because it was just even a few weeks ago where maybe a month ago or something, was relatively recent, where you were saying like, "oh, I read this book and it changed my life I'm waking up at like 4:30 in the morning and structuring my day different" and it was just again and again. But you've had these little shifts that end up leading to these huge changes for you and how you run things and how you structure your day and like just even your, your energy levels seem to be more protected now. [00:05:32] Kelly: Yeah, I'm not getting up at 4:30 in the morning anymore. Although I just learned yesterday I might have to start again because my daughter wants to join the swim team. Oh. And they practice it. 5 a. m. sometimes, but yeah, I mean, it's, it's been a struggle because I'm not only a real estate entrepreneur. [00:05:48] I am also, you know, a wife of a whirlwind. I mean, my husband is a broker. He's into wholesaling. He's into flipping. And I go to manage him.  [00:05:58] Jason: The whirlwind broker.  [00:06:00] Kelly: Yeah, and,  [00:06:02] Jason: yeah.  [00:06:02] Kelly: No, we'll say no more about that.  [00:06:04] Sarah: There's a lot going on. [00:06:05] Lots of moving pieces.  [00:06:06] Kelly: He's a genius. He's like a Bill Gates level genius. [00:06:09] I'm just waiting for the ship to come in. Yeah, nice. It's been 30 years, but it's coming.  [00:06:13] Jason: So what do you feel like maybe was the first mindset thing that you noticed in Kelly, kind of overcoming? Or what do you feel like was your first?  [00:06:22] Sarah: I don't know if I can think of a first, but I know that there's been several that I'd like to highlight. [00:06:27] Jason: Okay.  [00:06:27] Sarah: So I think one of the things is being much more picky with what clients you take on and what properties you take on and how you kind of screen and vet people.  [00:06:41] Jason: Maybe that first client helped you learn that lesson.  [00:06:44] Sarah: Yes.  [00:06:45] Jason: Yeah. So what, what was the lesson there? Like, what did you figure out?  [00:06:48] Kelly: Oh, wow. You know, the, the first thing is I have to see if our philosophies match. [00:06:53] Jason: You and the client.  [00:06:54] Kelly: Yes. And when I got into real estate investing, I admit I'm a bit of an idealist. I know you're into personality types.  [00:07:01] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:01] Kelly: And I test as an INFP.  [00:07:03] Jason: Okay.  [00:07:03] Kelly: So I probably have no business being in any business at all, but yet here I am. But I'm a dreamer. I'm a visionary. And so my first company was, and still is called Good People, Good Homes, LLC. [00:07:15] And I own property in that LLC. I'm not really doing business in it. It just holds property for me. But when I started it, it was supposed to be the company and it was: you buy these distressed properties in these neighborhoods and you fix them up and you put great people in them and it brings up the whole neighborhood and then everybody loves you and we hold hands and sing Kumbaya and that didn't really happen. [00:07:36] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:36] Kelly: But I did improve a lot of properties.  [00:07:39] Jason: Okay.  [00:07:39] Kelly: Right. Yeah.  [00:07:41] Sarah: I think arguably in this market, you are outdoing anything that I've ever seen because the befores and afters are just wild. And the rent rates before and after are wild. And this area, yes, you can absolutely get a great deal, a great bargain on real estate, and that doesn't come without its challenges and its problems. [00:08:06] But one of the things that I think is just so great in this area that you do is you take these distressed properties and you make them beautiful and livable and safe. And you provide a wonderful home now on something before that was dilapidated.  [00:08:25] Kelly: And the market's full of C class properties. You know, I hear a lot of property managers say, "Why are you even bothering with those?" [00:08:31] Well, honestly, there isn't anything else. Yeah, that's what we hear. You work with what you got. And I probably wouldn't be a real estate investor if the market wasn't like this. Because that's how I got in. I didn't make a ton of money in radio. I didn't. But I made enough to get in, you know, with a C class property. [00:08:48] And now those C class properties are paying for my life, and my daughter's life, and it's beautiful. The property management company? That's just icing on the cake, but I think it might even eclipse what I've been able to do with my rentals.  [00:09:00] Jason: Oh, I'm sure.  [00:09:01] Kelly: And there's a need for it.  [00:09:02] Jason: Yeah. Big need.  [00:09:04] Kelly: Yeah. So the biggest thing I learned, back to your question about how to vet clients, does their philosophy match mine? Do they believe their C class property could be turned into a desirable place to live? And yes, you will be charging market rent for that, which is a lot more than maybe you thought you could charge. And you'll get a better class tenant that way. Or are they just happy not doing anything to the property, just letting it be what it is and getting whoever they can get into it and, you know, getting whatever money they can for it. I don't really want to work with those people.  [00:09:38] Jason: Do you find part of this though is just selling? [00:09:41] It's like convincing them to align with your vision? Because it sounds like you have a better vision than a lot of the people that might come to you.  [00:09:48] Kelly: Sometimes when I show them the spreadsheet, of, you know, what I've done for some of my other clients, including the first one that I told you about. I mean, I really turned some of his properties around. [00:09:59] And I've tried to fire him twice. Yeah.  [00:10:01] He won't go and, you know, he's also a third of my income, so I'm going to keep him on. And, but the thing is, he's kind of listening to me now. Kind of.  [00:10:11] Sarah: He's open. Well, I think. It's like a walnut shell. We've just cracked it open. Maybe some of the good ideas are seeping through. [00:10:18] Jason: I've talked about this before, but I think also part of it is, as we've seen, you come into your own in more confidence in what you're doing and the more confident you are, the more some of these A personality types or these difficult personality types will kind of abdicate and allow you to lead them. [00:10:36] And I talk about metaphorically punching people in the face sometimes. So you probably maybe punched them in the face metaphorically a couple of times since then. And so setting those healthier boundaries. Is something we naturally do when we start to believe in ourselves more. And so what other shifts do you feel like you've noticed in Kelly? [00:10:55] Or what are some of the things that DoorGrow's helped you with? Are you making changes too?  [00:10:59] Kelly: Well, like Sarah said, a lot of the mindset stuff, I mean, a big revelation came to me when I was at DoorGrow live.  [00:11:05] Jason: Yeah, what was that?  [00:11:07] Kelly: Well, first of all, getting to DoorGrow Live was a challenge because I was in the midst of my survival mode. [00:11:13] I'm a solopreneur still. I do everything myself. My husband's my broker of record, but, like, he's off doing his thing. Sure. So.  [00:11:21] Jason: You were doing everything, you're really busy, and you're like, how do I take a break to even just go to DoorGrow Live?  [00:11:26] Kelly: Yeah, and, you know, then I've got this mindset that, you know, how can I afford it? [00:11:30] But the thing is, I did have the money to go. That's another thing. I've got a poverty mindset I need to get past. And when I went to DoorGrow Live, that was really thrown in my face. Because I was talking about the challenges of being a solopreneur. And one of the pieces of advice that I was given by one of the speakers is, "What's your time worth?" [00:11:49] You know, you can't be doing all of these things when you pay somebody. Yeah, and I thought, well, what's my time worth? And then this little voice in the back of my head said, well, not a whole heck of a lot.  [00:12:00] Jason: You told everybody that. You said, "not a whole heck of a lot."  [00:12:04] Kelly: Yeah.  [00:12:04] Jason: And we're like, "oh, okay."  [00:12:06] Kelly: Yeah.  [00:12:07] Jason: Yeah. [00:12:07] Kelly: Well, I mean, that comes from, you know, my background. I grew up without a lot.  [00:12:11] Jason: Yeah. You know,  [00:12:12] Kelly: I saw my parents struggle. They're working class people. You know, I got into an industry that was on its, you know, downslide when I, I started on the radio in you know, the early nineties, you know, probably right after it started to slide down and, you know, there've been multiple layoffs and, you know, voice tracking and automation and, you know, I survived, but I think one of the reasons I survived was I was willing to work really hard for not a whole lot of compensation. [00:12:40] Jason: Sure.  [00:12:40] Kelly: You know, as people were let go and reductions in force, I was given more duties, but not more money.  [00:12:47] Jason: Sure.  [00:12:48] Kelly: And, you know, you do that long enough, you start getting the message that, oh, well, your time really isn't worth a whole heck of a lot.  [00:12:54] Jason: Yeah.  [00:12:55] Kelly: Yeah.  [00:12:56] Jason: Who decides what your time's worth?  [00:12:57] Kelly: I do.  [00:12:58] Jason: Yeah. I do. [00:12:59] Yes.  [00:12:59] Kelly: I do.  [00:13:00] Yeah!  [00:13:01] And, you know, that's... [00:13:02] you do now. Yes.  [00:13:03] Jason: How has that shifted for you then? What's your perception of your time and the value of it? of your time now?  [00:13:09] Kelly: My perception of my time is, you know, first of all, I don't need to be tied to the Henry Ford 40 hour work week or even the 50-60-70-80 hour work week that I hear people say you "should" do when you're running a business because, you know, it's impractical. [00:13:24] I have a daughter. She's a teenager. She's just started high school this year. She's a field hockey athlete and now she wants to be on the swim team and she's got needs. Mhm. Right? I've got a husband who does not have a cushy job I can fall back on while I do my entrepreneurial thing.  [00:13:40] Jason: Right. Right. [00:13:41] Kelly: He's also an entrepreneur. [00:13:43] We are living off self employment income. So it is a constant, you know, point of stress. So, you know, I need to find out my key productivity time, and that's when I work. And sometimes I get four or five hours a day, and that's it, of key productivity time. But then I find myself, you know, when I'm walking the dog, having all these great ideas. [00:14:06] You know, I do things like I listen to your podcast you know, some great audio books that have been recommended to me. I devoured The One Thing by Gary Keller, the Profit First book. And I'm starting to implement these ideas. And it's just sort of like they're ladder steps.  [00:14:23] Jason: So basically, little by little, you've been investing in yourself by leveraging reading, getting coaching, doing this stuff. [00:14:31] And that's translated into you valuing yourself a little bit more.  [00:14:35] Yeah.  [00:14:35] Awesome.  [00:14:36] Kelly: Absolutely. And I've learned to turn things over, like maintenance, you know, I hired one of the vendors that you recommended, Vendoroo and they're, you know, the tenants still text me with maintenance issues. [00:14:47] Sure. And I text back, "put it in the portal." Right. "If you can't put it in the portal, call this number and they'll teach you how to put it in the portal."  [00:14:55] Jason: But yeah, probably less willing to take phone calls than you were before.  [00:14:58] Kelly: Yeah, I've never really taken phone calls.  [00:15:00] Jason: That's good, that's good. [00:15:02] Kelly: Thanks me. Get it all in writing.  [00:15:04] Jason: So you went through our whole rapid revamp process as well, like with the branding and like getting everything kind of dialed in, pricing. You've implemented a lot of things. And so, has that impacted your confidence level as well?  [00:15:20] Kelly: Oh, absolutely. I really feel like, you know, I'm marketing a real brand now with Crimson Cape. [00:15:25] Jason: Yeah. What, what was it before that?  [00:15:26] Kelly: GPGH Management Company.  [00:15:29] Jason: Oh, the acronym.  [00:15:30] Kelly: Yep. Good People, Good Homes.  [00:15:32] Jason: Yeah.  [00:15:32] Kelly: You know, just to take off of that and, you know, everything was GPGH. My husband was GPGH Realty.  [00:15:38] Jason: It sounds like some sort of drug or something. What do you take in GPGH? [00:15:42] Kelly: Well, it's the right market. [00:15:44] Jason: Okay. Well, then there's that GLP 1 joke too that you could put in there. GLP 1. Yeah. But my husband actually reprinted his real estate company because of, you know, he was inspired by what I did.  [00:15:54] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. What's his brand?  [00:15:56] Kelly: He's Gorilla Real Estate. That's the little stuffed gorilla you saw on the way in. [00:16:00] Jason: Okay, yeah. Yeah, and they're different, which is nice. They're not like, you know, kind of mixed together.  [00:16:06] Kelly: Right, right. And I don't want, you know, people to really associate us together, even though we do share an office.  [00:16:11] Jason: Yeah.  [00:16:12] For now.  [00:16:13] So you've gone through the branding, your pricing is different than anyone else in the market. [00:16:19] Kelly: Yeah. It's higher than anyone else in the market too. And that keeps a lot of the riffraff away.  [00:16:24] Jason: Yeah. It's better to be at the top than to be competing with the garbage at the bottom. For sure. Yeah. Especially in a difficult or lower end market. Yeah. Yeah. So awesome. What other changes?  [00:16:36] Sarah: I think, well, how many, we've gone through the rapid revamp a couple of times, so she's done the mindset piece a few times, and I think every time you go through it, you kind of get, like, an extra layer out of it, like almost like the next, like we're stacking like, levels and levels and levels of different like mindset tips and tricks, and then the perception piece, which once we're done with the little pieces on the website, we can get that launched for you. [00:17:04] I think that will make a huge difference. And recently. I mean, for the whole entirety of the time that you were in our program, you had always said "there is no way I can add more units. There is no way I can do more work. There is no way I can even focus on growth." And you are now adding new doors. [00:17:24] Kelly: Yep, I added three last week. I added another two Sunday night from a current client. I didn't know she had another double block. You know how I got those doors? She called me from you know, her poor husband is at the Cleveland Clinic. So she called me from Cleveland and she's like "I got a no heat call from this one building that you're not managing And I can't deal with it. Can you please take these units?"  [00:17:47] Jason: Nice.  [00:17:48] Kelly: So I just got two more doors.  [00:17:49] Jason: Okay.  [00:17:50] Kelly: And I'm hopefully closing on another five by the end of the week.  [00:17:53] Yes! [00:17:55] Jason: So doors are just starting to flow and you're able to dedicate time now towards growth which before you're kind of  [00:18:01] Kelly: yeah  [00:18:01] Jason: Chicken with head cut off running around and dealing with stuff. [00:18:04] Kelly: It's going to get a little iffy again now that I've added these doors, you know, okay. Now I have to onboard all these tenants. And there's a couple that come with the vacant units that they want me to rent in January?  [00:18:16] Jason: Yeah.  [00:18:17] Sarah: The best time of year here.  [00:18:21] Jason: Right. Lots of activity.  [00:18:23] Sarah: Speaking of vacant units, You have none now in the portfolio that you're Managing? [00:18:28] My current portfolio, I filled them all.  [00:18:31] Yeah, and how many did you have? Because I feel like all throughout the year I was getting updates and it was like 20 something and down a little bit, down a little bit, and now you're at zero.  [00:18:41] Kelly: Yeah, I filled I think 17 units over the course of the last year. [00:18:45] Amazing.  [00:18:46] 10 of them were filled between September and now.  [00:18:50] Jason: Nice. Wow.  [00:18:50] Kelly: And I've got a few that are coming up. I've got, you know, two of my tenants are moving into senior housing. So, you know, that means I'm probably going to have to redo their apartments because they've been living there since like 1965 or whatever. [00:19:04] I'm sure they're going to need to be some updates.  [00:19:07] Jason: So in getting this business started, if you hadn't heard about DoorGrow, or say, DoorGrow didn't exist. Where would you be you think right now?  [00:19:15] Kelly: Oh my gosh.  [00:19:16] Jason: What'd be going on?  [00:19:17] Kelly: I'm not sure I'd still be doing it.  [00:19:19] Jason: You think you would have quit?  [00:19:20] Kelly: With this client that I took on from the beginning, if I didn't know any better, I would think this is what property management is. [00:19:27] Jason: And you'd be like, yeah, right, so talking with us saying you should probably fire this client was probably enough to go, "okay, this may not be everybody."  [00:19:35] Kelly: Right. [00:19:36] Jason: Okay. [00:19:36] Kelly: Right, right. And you know, and you also helped me work with this client. So he's still my client, and he could be a very good client now that his buildings are cash flowing. But that remains to be seen because I got a little pushback on a repair last night that I wasn't real happy with, but we'll see. [00:19:53] Jason: You're going to set some strong boundaries with this guy.  [00:19:56] Kelly: I might have to punch him in the face a third time.  [00:19:58] Jason: Metaphorically. Right, right. Metaphorically, we're not advocating violence. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. All right. Well anything else that we should chat about or cover? I mean, it's really been, like I said at the beginning, it's been inspiring and exciting to see you grow. [00:20:13] We're really excited to see where you take this and we've seen just it and that's why we do what we do. It's great to see clients just grow like you've come so far. Your whole energy is just different. Just how you are from when we saw you at DoorGrow live and you're like, well, what's your time worth? [00:20:29] And you're, you've spouted off, "well, not very much," you know, or whatever you've come a long way. And I'm really excited to see where you go with this because this could be a really great residual income business. I think absolutely it will overshadow what you're making off your rental properties, but then it also feed you some more real estate deals in the future. [00:20:47] For sure as you, as you work this. And so, yeah, I think it'll be interesting. And how does the, the king of Gorilla Real Estate feel about everything that you're doing?  [00:20:56] Kelly: Oh, he's incredibly supportive. Yeah. I think he misses when I used to just, you know, clean up his bookkeeping for him. We now have to hire someone to do that. [00:21:05] Jason: Mm-hmm. Yes. Those wealthy problems. Yeah.  [00:21:07] Kelly: And yeah, and that's another mindset thing I need to get over. And you cover this in the rapid revamp when you're talking about, you know, the three types of clients you got, your, your normals, which you're, you're aiming for.  [00:21:18] Jason: Yeah.  [00:21:18] Kelly: But then you've got, you know, your cheapos and your premiums. [00:21:21] Sure.  [00:21:21] Jason: Yeah.  [00:21:21] Kelly: And and, and one of the things you talked about, the cheapos is. Are you a cheapo?  [00:21:27] Jason: Oh. Yeah.  [00:21:27] Kelly: And I realize that, yeah, I kind of am a cheapo.  [00:21:30] Jason: You get what you attract. Huh. And so, yeah, we're blind, we have a blind spot towards which category we are showing up as, and so stretching yourself to not be a cheapo. [00:21:41] Kelly: I grew up with nothing. You know, I grew up with nothing, so, yeah, that's why I'm a cheapo.  [00:21:47] Sarah: Yeah. And I get it, because I too was in that mindset, especially when I lived here.  [00:21:52] This area is in that mindset. [00:21:54] Yes, the whole area is very, and when you find someone who kind of breaks through that bubble, It's odd here, right? [00:22:03] And it's different. And it's weird. And it's like, what are they doing? What is this all about? This is just weird. Like, why are you not, you know, normal like us? And when that was something that I had struggled with for a very, very long time, too, because back when I had lived here, I thought, "okay, well, I want to make more money. And like, I need to make more money. And the only way I can do that is I can either work more hours and maybe get some overtime or maybe I can find a job that's going to pay me more and or ask for a raise, or and this is my go to strategy, was let's just work two jobs, three jobs, four jobs." I was working four jobs at a time. [00:22:44] I was working seven days a week and I did that for years and years and years just because, well, this job I maxed out on and I can't get any more money out of here, but I need more money, so, oh, let me just add on another job. Yeah, so I understand that completely and it was just, it was with time that that started to just crack and shift a little bit. [00:23:02] Jason: Kind of the trap of time for dollars. As if that's the only way.  [00:23:07] Sarah: Absolutely. Absolutely.  [00:23:09] Jason: So yeah, so being exposed just to other people that are not of that mindset probably is cracks that glass ceiling you spoke of a little bit before maybe.  [00:23:19] Kelly: Right. Yeah. And what I'm noticing is that I'm attracting people, local people, that have a similar mindset and they exist. [00:23:28] You know, there's a lot of entrepreneurs in this area. Chris Jones started Pepper Jam, and he decided to keep his company here.  [00:23:34] Sarah: Oh, wow.  [00:23:34] Kelly: Yeah, I mean, there's, there's a few. Tech company, you might have heard of them. But yeah, there's, there's a few.  [00:23:39] Jason: So, you are no longer a cheapo.  [00:23:42] Kelly: No. I, well, I'm working on it. [00:23:45] I'm working on it. I catch myself.  [00:23:46] Jason: You say... [00:23:47] Kelly: I am no longer a cheapo.  [00:23:49] Jason: I am more normal.  [00:23:51] Kelly: I am more normal.  [00:23:52] Jason: Graduating towards premium.  [00:23:53] Kelly: And I'm graduating towards premium.  [00:23:55] Jason: It's good to be premium. We get to decide this, right? We get to decide this. [00:24:00] And so as you stretch yourself into more premium experience and recognizing, like, money is not the painful thing to be focused on, there's, and there's better things to be focused on that are more valuable and more important, like your time. And as you put a greater and greater premium on your time, you shift out of that currency of cash being the, you know, the God of your life controlling you and then you can start to be grateful. [00:24:26] And I think one of the key things for everybody listening is when we start to celebrate all of the things that we used to complain about related to money, I think this is how we shift out of that poverty mindset is, oh, we got to pay this bill. Thank you God that I have lights and power that I'm able to afford to do this. [00:24:44] Or thank you that I'm able to do this. And when we start to be grateful instead of projecting pain every time we see or hear money, And we start to project gratitude, then we start to attract more money. Like we start to be open to that. And as we shift into normal, yeah, we attract more normals. As we shift into premium, we attract more premium clients. [00:25:05] And they recognize you. It's like, there's a knowing between you and them, like, yeah, this is how it works. You come to us and we take care of everything and we take care of you and you get a premium service and product and they're like, "yeah, that's what I want." because premium buyers, when they see people that are cheapos. [00:25:20] They can like kind of smell it on you, right? So then they're like, "I don't want to work with this person. They're not going to take care of my property the way that I would want or do things or take care of me the way that I want." And so investing in ourselves. Sometimes for me, one of my coaches said, "go get a massage, you know, go do things to invest or take care of yourself to where you feel like..." you know, anything where we say, I think the poverty mindset is we hear this voice that says, " I don't need that nicer car. You don't need to go get a massage. Why do you need that?" Normal and premium is about shifting beyond need, right? Need is scarcity, need is starving, and need is survival, and so, and then what happens is we have to create drama or problems in our life in order to justify taking time off, so we have to get sick, or we have to justify it. [00:26:09] Doing something and so when we shift out of that then we shift into a healthier state where we can decide I am going to take a vacation or I am going to take time off. I'm going to go to DoorGrow live. You should all go to DoorGrow live, so.  [00:26:20] Sarah: I highly recommend coming up in May!  [00:26:23] Jason: It's coming up in May. Go to doorgrowlive.Com. So, all right anything else we should touch on?  [00:26:28] Sarah: One thing and I don't know if I've ever said this on the coach a call where you've been on but for me, it was actually Roya Mattis. She, at the time, was in Mary Kay like, and I was in cosmetic sales for Mary Kay, and It was very early in my Mary Kay career and I was kind of learning how to be entrepreneur ish, right? [00:26:53] Like, "Oh, I can write these things off and I can do things differently" and, "Oh, this is an expense, but it's a good expense." And it was a lot of new things for me. And one of the things that she had said is and I'll never forget because it just stuck with me and I went, "Oh, okay." Yeah, I need to stop thinking like that right now. [00:27:11] Is " come tax time, there are people who can't wait for tax time because they're waiting. They're depending on that refund and they're like, 'Oh, thank God I get this refund.' Right?" [00:27:21] A lot of rent gets caught up in it. [00:27:23] It sure does. Yeah. Funny. All of a sudden they have money. So. Once you start really making money, though, you don't get refunds anymore. [00:27:33] What ends up happening is you pay money. And not only do you pay money into it, but you now are, like, quarterly paying money. But you don't have to do that if you're, like, barely scraping by, if you're not making money. So, what she said to me is, " when you're, like, rich and you're making money You're excited to pay this money because you're making so much money that now, not only are not going to get a refund, but you don't, you don't worry about the refund, you're making money and now you're paying the taxes and you are going to hit a point where you want to be paying taxes more often than just once a year because that means you've reached a certain level and now you're making a certain amount of money and your goal at that point is then going to be, 'well, how can I increase this?'" [00:28:24] And that for me, it just stuck in my head forever. And I went, "Oh. Oh, geez. I didn't even realize that." And at that time I was, I was. Like, "well, I'm going to get a couple thousand dollars back, like on my tax refund." I haven't gotten a refund in years. And it's true though. It's just a different way of thinking about things. [00:28:40] It's like, well, you know, if you make this tiny little bit of money and then I can get, you know, a couple thousand dollars back at the end of the year, or I can make a whole lot more money. And then, yes, I have to make some quarterly tax payments. Man, I'd rather make a lot more money and I'll just give the government some of it. [00:28:54] And then what you have to do is just figure out how can we reduce that as much as possible.  [00:28:59] Jason: I would love to see taxes just be reduced dramatically. So, we'll see.  [00:29:04] Kelly: But, who knows what they're going to do.  [00:29:05] Jason: I don't get super excited about paying taxes, but I do get excited. I would rather, like, see more income on my tax return. [00:29:13] You know taxes every time so.  [00:29:14] Sarah: Would you rather make the big amount of money so that you have to pay the taxes in or would you make a really small amount of money so that you get a refund?  [00:29:22] Kelly: Yeah, just a really good accountant that can help you zig when the government zags  [00:29:26] Sarah: So that that was something that she said to me and I went oh, okay, that is a very different way of thinking about it. [00:29:33] And it just, just stuck with me.  [00:29:35] Jason: Yeah. Always looking through the lens of 'why is this positive?' it's a healthy mindset for sure. Yeah. Why are taxes positive? All right. Everybody listening is like, "they're not."  [00:29:45] Sarah: I know. Right. Cool. My brother wants a shout out. So shout out to Jason.  [00:29:50] Jason: What's up, Jason? [00:29:51] Sarah: He's like, "you never shout me out!" Here, here you are. The three of us are waving to you now. So, what's up, Jason?  [00:29:58] Jason: No, he's got the same name as me. Everybody's like, what's that all about?  [00:30:01] He's dating a Sarah.  [00:30:03] Kelly: Oh!  [00:30:04] Jason: Which is funny. And you have a stepsister, that's Sarah, so he's got two, three Sarahs in his life right now. [00:30:13] Three Sarahs, two Jasons, and a partridge in a pear tree. All right. Cool. Well, Kelly, it's been great coming to hang out in your office and to meet you in person like here in Pennsylvania. Thanks for hosting the DoorGrow show and having us hang out with you and we're excited to see where you go and how you progress in the program and all the things you're going to do as you add doors. [00:30:36] And I think the future is really bright for Crimson Property Management, Crimson Cape. Hey, I missed the Cape. It's like superhero stuff here. Yes. I am. I love it. All right. And that's it. So if you are tuning in, make sure to check us out at DoorGrow. com. And if you are wanting to grow your property management business, or you are getting burnt out on it, or you are one of the many sucky property management companies that exist, you don't have to be. [00:31:04] It could be good. It could be better. Then reach out to us. We would love to help you scale and grow your business. We help people from startup all the way to breaking the thousand door barrier. Whatever your goal is reach out to us. Check us out at DoorGrow. com. Bye everyone.  [00:31:18] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:31:45] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

In this episode of the Building Texas Business Podcast, I interview Kelly Young, CEO of the Coalition for the Homeless in Houston. We explore how Houston has become a national model for reducing homelessness through data-driven strategies and collaborative efforts. Kelly shares insights on effective nonprofit leadership, emphasizing the importance of building solid and accountable teams and fostering diverse thinking. We discuss the critical need for sustainable funding in homeless response systems, moving away from reliance on sporadic disaster funding. Throughout our conversation, we delve into Houston's successes and the ongoing challenges in addressing homelessness. -- SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Chris introduces Kelly Young, CEO of the Coalition for the Homeless in Houston, discussing the organization's role in coordinating the Way Home system. Kelly describes her journey from providing direct services to adopting a systems-thinking approach, emphasizing the importance of data-driven strategies and compliance in managing federal funds. We discuss the structure of the Coalition, including key departments like finance, compliance, outreach, landlord engagement, and housing, as well as its unique position working between city and county governments. Kelly shares insights on building strong, accountable teams in nonprofit leadership, balancing visionary goals with improvisational strategies, and fostering an environment where diverse thinking thrives. We explore the significance of clear communication, especially for introverted thinkers, and the importance of acknowledging mistakes openly to build trust and strengthen teams. Kelly highlights the critical need for sustainable homeless response system funding, discussing the inadequacies of relying on sporadic disaster funding and the necessity of evolving data to better serve those still on the streets. We delve into the business rationale for investing in homeless response systems, emphasizing that it's a financially sound decision that ultimately reduces costs on public health and other services. Kelly explains the success of Houston's model for reducing homelessness, including the collaborative efforts among for-profit, non-profit, and public entities, and the innovative use of disaster funds from Hurricane Harvey and COVID. We address the importance of community engagement and understanding how systems work, as well as addressing severe mental illness and substance abuse issues more effectively. Kelly shares leadership lessons learned through experience, including the importance of passion, data integrity, personal and professional integrity in communication, and fostering a culture of risk-taking and growth. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About CFTHhouston GUESTS Kelly YoungAbout Kelly TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode, you will meet Kelly Young, CEO of the Coalition for the Homeless in Houston. Kelly shares several great tips for leaders, including the value of direct communication. She also sheds light on the homeless response system and why Houston is leading the country in reducing homelessness in our community. Kelly, I want to thank you for taking the time to come on Building Texas Business. It's great to see you. Kelly: Lovely to see you and thank you for inviting me. Chris: So you are the CEO of the Coalition for the Homeless in Houston, and so a little bit different guest than normal, but not outside the box for us. Tell us what the Coalition for the Homeless is and what it does. So. Kelly: I like to think of the Coalition for the Homeless is and what it does. So I like to think of the Coalition for the Homeless as a coordinating body over what we call the Way Home, which is a collective of for-profit or non-profit and public entities that come together to resolve the issue of homelessness. Chris: Very good. So how did you get involved in the homeless response system, how long have you been involved and what really inspired you to do this? Kelly: I've actually been interested in helping people figure out better lives for themselves since I was like 12. I mean, I was what was called a people tutor when I was in a middle school, where I actually helped individuals with physical disabilities learn sports. And then I did some tutoring in high school and then I started working in a shelter for abused kids and I worked with kids who were coming out of psychiatric units. Then I worked in domestic and sexual violence. So I think I was always on a path to be a part of something that helped make other people's lives easier for them to be successful. When you do a lot of that direct work, you see the individual impact and the individual failures. When you get to do it on a systems level, you get to decide whether a system will be helpful in helping someone or whether it's setting up people for failure. So I've been in the Way Home system for about 12 years as an individual agency that helped provide direct services. But I'm actually a systems thinker by nature and so I kept going well, why doesn't this work and why doesn't this work? And the whole system here works. My job was to help it work better. So you know, like with any system or any business, you're constantly thinking about the future and what needs to change and what's going to be different coming up, and so I got the perfect opportunity to come in at a time when there is a major shift in many of the pillars of how the work is done, and I get to help design what that's going to look like, and that, to me, is the purpose of work. Chris: Love it. That's great. So, just to give our listeners maybe some context, let's just talk about the size of the organization, the coalition itself and maybe then, and maybe then, the system, participants and members, so they get an idea of what it is, that the organization is that you're running, as well as a system that you're trying to help manage and, as you said, get better and be more successful. Kelly: Well, I think, like any business, we are well-structured in terms of having enough staff to do the things that are core to our business model, and a couple of those things is we have a heavy compliance and finance department. We are nonprofits, are tax status not our business model, and we think of finance and compliance as sort of the heart of the organization. It pumps the blood through because we manage and help support almost 23 million to $40 million with a federal funding which requires us to follow lots of rules and regulation and make sure it's done correctly, not just for us, but also for our partners. We will provide certain types of services if we think that from a systems perspective, it makes sense to have an overlay. So we have an outreach team, we have a landlord engagement team and I can go more into depth about that when I talk about the system and then we have a housing team and those are really to bolster the system, not to replace the system in those jobs. And then we have this second largest department, which is really our data. We're a data-driven organization. 12 years ago, the coalition made a major shift, which was to use data to drive the construct of how the community actually resolves homelessness or deals with homelessness in the community and in that data. What we did was build out our 100 partners who have to agree to be a part of the database and include all that information but also follow some of our guidelines around standards, so that we can bring more and more money in from the federal government but also provide much better services and a quicker response to somebody who falls into homelessness. Chris: Okay, so, and at the coalition, what is it? Roughly 80-ish, I think, employees. Kelly: Yes, we're at 80. And I think we're also unique because we sit between the county and the city. We are trying to manage both of their expectations around homelessness. So sometimes people think of us as quasi-government. We are not. We are a nonprofit. But we sit there so that we can meter both sides what the county and the city wants and they don't have to be trying to work that through. So we always find the best solution for both Harris County, montgomery County and Fort Bend, and then the city of Houston Very good. Chris: So yeah, let's talk a little bit about the system. You know some people may be aware I think you know a lot aren't but just the success of Houston and how Houston has become the model for the country on addressing homelessness, reducing homelessness in our community. You know a lot's been written, most recently about the Houston Chronicle a little over a year ago, new York Times. You know you've been involved and interviewed in those things. Share a little bit for people to kind of understand how successful Houston's been to date. And of course, we can talk more later about the challenges we still face. Kelly: Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things and again, any good business person or anybody who's looking to innovate understands that you first have to know the problem you have and then understand how you want to solve that problem, and for what I think the system did really well over the last 12 years is to build out the right system mechanisms and then the right interventions to use our money to the fullest extent. So what most people don't understand is that for the homeless response system which we oversee, that is mainly funded by federal dollars and so we are under federal guidelines on how we do that, which means we actually cannot interact or help somebody until they are currently on the street and in that then we have to be able to place them in other places, including permanent supportive housing, which is for somebody with a documented disability who's been on the street for a long time. They still will pay part of their rent out of their disability dollars, but we give them a subsidized apartment and appointments to kind of get off the street and going again. I think the other piece that people don't understand is that we only have two systems. We only have rapid rehousing or permanent supportive housing. So our options are very limited, which means you have to be incredibly smart and innovative about how you engage not only the community, the people who need the service, but then the service delivery when we have taken advantage of, which I think is true in Houston. Why I love this city so much is we take disasters and turn them into determination, and so we took both the Hurricane Harvey and COVID and use those additional dollars to build out enough of a safety net, but then also a permanent place for people to live, that we were able to move over the last 11 years, 30,000 people off the street. We reduced homelessness by 60% and I know people are like, well, but I see people on the street, Absolutely, but you don't see the ones we placed in the housing and who moved on with their lives because they're gone. They're doing their lives. Chris: The thing people I think should know is and you can share some details but you know and we know from the research and the data that A lot of what's at the streetlight, those aren't homeless people. Kelly: Right. We also have an issue with people living below the poverty line. So United Way points out and rightfully so, that 40% of the individuals in Houston are $400 away from catastrophe and that means we have a lot of people living on the edge. So if you're unable to get a job or you're unable to work full time, you might see people who are out panhandling to get a job, or you're unable to work full-time, you might see people who are out panhandling. There's also people who take advantage of people who are in those situations and use that as their own mechanism to make money, because they actually place people there and then collect some of their money so that they could go stay in their shelter. So it's an interesting world when you actually find out what's going on in your street corners. Chris: Right, right. Well, I love that Obviously very close to this issue and the system, and so I think it's great to be able to tout the success we're having, as well as you know the challenges we face. You know people talk about the goal of ending homelessness and I love the kind of the phrase that's been adopted is making it rare, brief and non-reoccurring, because, as you said, so many people are living right on the edge. People are going to something's going to happen, people are going to end up homeless, but the question is is there a system there that can rapidly get them into housing and the supportive services they need to recorrect? Kelly: Yeah, absolutely, and I think the important piece of this is looking at equilibrium. So what you want, I don't need to have a lot of additional dollars that are sitting there waiting to do something. I need just-in-time dollars. I need to know that if a downturn has happened in the economy, if there's something happening on the street, return you know, in terms of people falling more readily into homelessness, rents have gone up something else has happened. I want to be able to bolster that very quickly so I can move those individuals off the street within 30 to 45 days. That reduces not only the trauma on that individual but it reduces the trauma on the community and as a community member myself I mean, I live in Midtown, so I often see a lot of individuals I've known for a long time to be on the street and you know what I don't want people to do is to get to the point where they don't care about those individuals anymore because it's disrupting their community. So equilibrium not only benefits the individual, who is facing a really difficult time, and moving them on quickly so it's a blip in their life, not an extension of their life and then also for the community to be able to stay in that caring and compassionate place so that they'll get involved and stay involved in the work of our unhoused neighbors and friends and, quite honestly, brothers and sisters. Chris: So let's turn the page a little bit and talk about you know you came into this organization at the beginning of 2024. Let's talk about what it's like to, you know, step in as a CEO, a new CEO into an organization and some of the how you approach that from a mindset, because I would think you know some of our listeners may find themselves there, may be experiencing it as well. So what was the mindset you kind of took in to make it a smooth transition and so that one you could honor what's been, what was being done by the you know, maybe previous CEO, but you know, make a smooth transition and find a way to put your own mark on the organization moving forward. Kelly: I think one of the best things people can do is first lie to themselves and then tell their truth. The lie you tell yourself is that you know everything's going to change and you list it out and you ready yourself for that. Intellectually, I do think where you probably need to tell your truth is that change is complicated and hard. I think sometimes, when you're in a leadership role, you want to reframe things for other people so that it's easy for them to understand and maybe to jump on board, but you yourself know it's difficult. I mean when you know the financial picture is going to change, the model is going to change, the people are going to change, and those were all true for us. That list sounds great and easy, but it is a constant attention to each small move that you're making and what the long-term impact is. I always describe strategy as visionary and improvisational and I think that's a good balance and that's how I've been able to translate what I think needs to happen in an organization. I mean, obviously you're listening, you know the pillars have sort of changed. You're listening to other people, you're absorbing other people, but I also come in and I'm really clear about how I work and what my accomplishment looks like and how success looks to me, and I drive that home in every single meeting. So people learn to trust that what I'm saying is true. When I make a mistake, I tell everybody straight up. I'm you know it's not falling on my sword. I just think it's important to model that. I think one thing is, for some of us who are more introverted thinkers, one of the hardest things to learn to do is how to over-commun messaging to people. Chris: Because I do so much of it in my head, I have to remember to actually put words to it well, and I mean yeah, go ahead obviously not the right, but I mean I can relate to that because you not only that, there's so many things going on in your brain, right, and you're you like. I just completed this, I got to get to the next thing and it's finding that time to either stop and slow down and communicate before you move on or, you know, remember at some point you need to stop and let people know what's going on through those ears. Advert Hello friends, this is Chris Hanslick, your Building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast, is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations and business leaders? Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm at boyermillercom and thanks for listening to the show. Kelly: Yeah, I always call it the Kelly Young madness or the Kelly Young magic, because it's like some people are good at waiting to see what's going to happen. Other people are like I have no idea what she's doing and we're just going to hope this all works out. And it's my responsibility as a leader to alleviate both of those misunderstandings. Right, because I need people engaged in the process. I'm a big believer that right buck stops with me. I'm going to make the final decision, but very rarely is the final decision my decision. It's everybody else's input. I'll take the accountability, I'll be the one who pushes it through. But if I don't have the buy-in from the group and they can't be settled in some agreement, especially when you're changing from something that has run successfully for a very long time and all the conditions changed and change and you have to let people know it's not, we're not changing because you did something wrong. We're changing because it's time to move forward. That kind of reframing I think is extremely helpful and that stuff. You should know what you're going to say and how you're going to lay that out to your team before you start day one. Chris: Very good. So, speaking of team obviously you just said this in one of your responses that is, while the buck stops with you, you make the final decision. It's rarely your decision. That's because you have a team around you, right, and you're relying on them and you're pushing them, all those things. So let's talk about building a solid team around you. What are some of the things that you look for? Again, this isn't your first time to be CEO of an organization, so I know you've built teams more than once. Let's talk a little bit about that. What are some of the things you look for in the hiring process, in the evaluation of the people that you have when you take over? I think there's a lot that could be learned from that. Kelly: I'm one of those people. I'm a little super nerdy this way and I learned a decision-making model a long time ago called the seven hats, and the idea behind it is that each person at the table wears a different hat, and so you have somebody who's the white hat, which is the emotional and red hat, and they're the naysayer. And as much as I'd rather have everybody just do what I want and like me and do all that. I also know that's a terrible way to run anything, so I work really hard at actually having very different ways of thinking at a leadership level. Sometimes that causes more conflict or contrast in the way we resolve an issue, but I expect people to come and learn professional communication skills, and if you can't, you should go back to school or learn a YouTube. I don't care, because the purpose should be. I need you to be here for what we're here for. I don't like a lot of internal nonsense. I don't like us spending a bunch of time on stuff that doesn't matter, because the kind of work I've always done meant somebody did not get out of a domestic violence situation because we were spending time arguing about who left the coffee pot on. You know I walk past somebody who's on the street who needs to get housed. I don't want to sitting around arguing because somebody thought somebody was rude one day. Like that just can't be in the workplace. I get why it is, but I want people who come ready to do work and actually can define what work means to them. The second thing is always happens in this field. I just want to help people and that to me, is the death nail answer, because my answer, my question back to you is going to be what does that mean and how does that look? Because you wanting to help people doesn't have very much to do with actually serving people. Those are two very different concepts. So I also am very clear about the environment that I want at work and you have a choice Don't sign up and then come in and want to change it, add to it, make it better. But I'm not going to adjust what I think has to happen in an organization to go to the next level, because I typically have taken jobs where I'm right in the middle of a major change and I do know what needs to be functionally happening on a regular basis to make that shift. Chris: So you know that's very insightful and you know the core of what I think you're saying. If you boil it down, is it comes back to very clear, direct communication, setting expectations, et cetera, and then holding people accountable. All of that then leads to culture when you're building these teams. If you think about what you've done in the last nine months at the coalition, how would you describe the culture that you're striving for, that you feel like you have? You know, growing there. Kelly: I have a speech I used to call the mean speech I never thought it was mean, but somebody had called it where I lay out what I learned over the time of my working, in the time that I made some really serious mistakes, and what I learned from those and how they need to interpret that into their new work environment. And so with that, I think what happens in the culture is they actually see me living the story I told and I bring it up over and over again in different pieces. I think storytelling is important for that reason, but I show them what I did that didn't work, so that they have a clear understanding of what I learned from what I didn't do or what I did wrong. So they understand that this is a learning environment, that part of your responsibility is to be curious and to want to understand how to do things better or differently. If you come in and you say to me well, you know, I just need the training and I need this, you will not last well in my organizations, because I expect that you're more interested than that. You have to want to care about data. Data is most important, particularly in nonprofits, because you are telling the future of how most federal dollars are going to be spent in your case notes or in your reports. I talk a lot about gossip and that you can't stop it, but you have a personal and professional integrity line in how you communicate account. You know, for me I run it this way, which is every single dollar that comes in here is somebody else's dollar and somebody else's money, and so there's very little room to make major mistakes or to waste, because that's your money that you're wasting. And if we cannot do it the best, if we cannot show up in ways that people expect, then we should give that money to somebody else. And I tell people don't be miserable. If you don't like working here, you don't like the here, you don't like the work, you don't like the commute, you don't like any of that stuff, oh my gosh, why are you spending your life doing something you don't like Like? Go be happy. Chris: That's so true, right? I mean I think we talk about it. I know in our organization is, if you don't connect with our mission and our passion, it's okay. You know it doesn't make you a bad person, it just means there's a different organization for you where you're going to be happier. And then you should go find that, because we want the people that if they connect with that mission and passion of our organization, then they're going to be living their best self, which opens them up to serve our clients and each other to their fullest potential. Right. Kelly: And I also think we try to be very or I've always tried to be. I'm not interested in telling you how to do your job because you don't want kelly young's opinion of how to do your job. You want your own opinion. I hired somebody who's smart and talented and knows how to do that and you don't want my limited vision of that. But when people also say, well, I don't like to be micromanaged, I'm like, well, I'd be interested in why people feel like they have to micromanage you. So if you are showing up to work and over-communicating and letting people know, I shouldn't have to do that, but I will if you're not able to do that, because I still need to know what's happening. So I often turn some of those things that people say back on them, just so a little self-awareness, and help them understand, because you will not like working for a CEO who will say, who will call you and be like, why does this number not match this number? And it's not because I don't trust you, it's that I need the number to make sense, because I'm about to go tell a bunch of people this number. So it's interesting. I actually really love building culture. I think I do a good job of creating enough openness that people feel like they can participate if they choose to. Chris: Well, you know, one of the things I think has been written a lot about and it's hard, it's a hard skill for some leaders to get to, but you learn so much by, rather than telling is asking questions. And you know, like you said, turn it around on them and ask the questions and then, a lot of times, as they are forced to answer those questions, they realize where to go. Kelly: Yeah, and it's funny because there's a new book out by the gentleman who wrote Sapiens and his new book is called Nexus and I heard him in an interview and I thought this was really interesting because I do think this is an issue with the workplace and maybe some generational conflict. He talks about information and not that. This is new. Talks about information and not. This is new. But information is not truth and part of the problem is that we tend to try to over inform and over educate to get to truth and neither one of those things will actually get you there, because truth is costly, it takes time, it takes energy and I do think we're in an overload of informing people as though that will change or grow somebody's understanding, when really all it did was add more information, not deeper truth. So, you know, I just find that a fascinating and I thought about it in terms of work we do, because I think one of the things the coalition has always done has been a truth teller and in that truth telling right now we're in huge inundation of information because we're going through a lot of change. How do we settle back into our truth? Chris: Interesting, yeah, okay, so you mentioned this and what I can't wait to hear more about. May not have time on this podcast, but your mean speech. You talked about the mistakes and sharing mistakes you made in the learning. And you know, I don't know if you listened to one of these before, but I love asking people you know, tell us about a setback, a mistake you made, but then how you learn from it. Right, and I think you know to your point, when you share those stories with the people in your organization, it humanizes you and allows for that culture of learning, take risk and it's okay to fail, because that's how we learn and get better. So let's you know, can you share an example that either comes out of the mean speech or something else? You know a Kelly Young mistake and how it made Kelly Young better? Kelly: Yeah, and this one was interesting and I think it sort of aligns in particular with people who work directly with people and I was a very benevolent leader at one point. So this is much more of a self-awareness mistake than an actual business mistake, but I think it's important and I was. It's all about, you know, serving, you know, women. Everybody had on their desk, on their computers what did I do today to end domestic or sexual violence? And I was all gung-ho and and I, you know, I was there for the work and, as I said, and we got a new CEO and I thought that I should have been tapped for the CEO position and nobody asked me. And so I was very self-righteous in my understanding of, first of all, well, if you don't let anybody know you're interested, they probably won't ask you. But second of all, just because you've done this job doesn't mean you're actually ready to do that job. And so I was awful. I mean I was awful for about six weeks and I made everybody hear my pain and how hard it was on me and all this kind of stuff. The hardest lesson to learn in all that was that for all my bravado and my great messaging and whatnot, I really wasn't there for the mission in that moment. I was really there for my ego. And if we are not self-aware enough to understand when you are using ego to sell people on a version of yourself that you think will make them like you better or follow you better, but it's not true because you haven't done enough self-work, I spent six weeks wasting time, I mean, and I find I left, I went and found a different job and that was the best thing for me to do. But in that one moment when you realize that you are a liar to yourself and to other people and you decide you're not going to do that anymore Best moment of my professional career, because I never made a decision ever again around benevolence or around pretending that rhetoric was more important than what I really could show up and do. So I didn't like that and I hate sharing that story because it sounds awful. I sound like a horrible human being, but I think most of us have that moment. Chris: What a powerful story. No, I mean I think to your point. I mean it doesn't make you powerful, think to your point. I mean it doesn't make you powerful, a horrible person. But that's a difficult thing for us as humans to face right, to really look in the mirror that deeply and call ourselves out and, more importantly then, actually do what it takes to change. Kelly: Yeah, and for me, what I learned is that if I really want to lead, lead it is not pretending you can't play at leading, it is a commitment. It's hard, it's lonely, it's complex and you have to build in ways where your mind just stops thinking, because I'm a little bit of an overthinker and you have to do that self-awareness all the time. You're in check, all the time when you're a leader. Chris: Yeah, everyone's watching, right. So that's, I mean, I think, to your point where basically you can't fake it. It's because so many people are watching every move, whether it's internal to your organization or external partners, you'll get exposed really fast. Kelly: Right, and then you lose their trust so they won't show up for you when you need them to and at the end of the day, whatever it is that you because I think about innovators and I have a gentleman I know who helped work on some incubation around medical devices. Well, some people are like, oh well, you work with homeless and it must be so rewarding. I'm like I actually think it'd be pretty cool to make medical devices that make people's lives better. I don't have that talent, but you know. So it doesn't really matter what is at the center of your passion and your mission. I worry when we tell people you know you fake it till you make it, because in leadership you really can't do that. You need to sit down and learn it. You need to know your truth. It goes back to that. You can inform me about all these things about being a leader, but until I know the truth about being a leader, I'm going to waste time and I'm a hyper efficiency person. So for me it's like if I can do it in two steps, I'd rather do that than 15. So I really don't faking. It would be way too easy for me to just practice all the time, so I have to not allow myself some of those, those things, cause I yeah, I'd rather be out riding my bike, only because it's only because it's been a long week. Chris: I get you, I get you. You need that release too. Finding a way to you know release as a leader is equally as important. Yes absolutely so. Let's turn the conversation back around to homelessness Talk a little bit. You know, maybe, where we are, but what the future looks like. You've mentioned a couple of times, you know, facing new challenges in this world of homeless response. Let's talk a little bit about that. I know we have, you know, world Homeless Day coming up. You know, share a little bit about that, but I just wanted you know our listeners to know a little bit about you know, maybe, how they can get involved and how they can help in this issue. Kelly: Yeah, I think you know. I think we have done such an incredible job of getting people into some type of permanent solution, so we're in decent shape there. But it was, as the Chronicle said, it's duct tape and determination. When you have to rely on funding that comes from disasters or pandemics, that is a terrible planning model and not very fiscally sound. So I think a couple of things for us. One is broadening our perspective in this phase we're kind of calling it phase four, and I think it's important to realize that systems should always have phases or pivot points, because systems die when they don't read themselves and make sure they're on the right track is kind of an overhaul of our data. What is our data telling us, but what is it, more importantly, not telling us? What do we need to know about who is still on the street? What do we need to know about our funding sources and what's available? We know that we're gonna run out of funding because of COVID by 2025. I'm going to make the argument over and over again that we are not. Homelessness used to be able to be resolved by people coming together and kind of helping a family or helping an individual. We've had so many other systems end up feeding people into homelessness, that we actually need a system response, and that includes system funding, which typically aligns with some type of consistent, regular money that's funding the system, so we never have to be out of balance again, and that's one of the things we're working on. The second is we've actually been going out and doing community mapping to help people understand community is not given, it's built. So if you want a different kind of community that you live in, you're going to have to get engaged and that's one of the ways that you can volunteer. So maybe you have a church, that you're in a neighborhood that people get fed, but the food containers and stuff get left all over the street or there's whatever. Well, you could complain about the trash, or you could complain the city doesn't pick up the trash, or you all could start a walking group. Everybody needs exercise, so you have choices in how you decide to engage in your community. I do think becoming much more aware and understanding how the system works and doesn't work resolves a lot of people's frustration about seeing somebody on the street. We also have to have much better interventions for individuals who are severely mentally ill and have substance use issues. We have housed a lot of people who apartments and appointments works really well, for we have some individuals who just cannot make good decisions to care for themselves, and we're going to have to address that and I think that's one of those things where people don't understand you said this earlier right now the way the homeless response system is set up. Chris: The federal dollars are all housing, coming from the housing side, and yet what we face and what you know, you and and your team know that we face is a very severe mental illness issue and kind of what's the hardest to serve, yet no dollars from the mental health side of the equation. Kelly: Right and certainly not at the level it needs to be in. Including residential care, additional beds and substance use is even far worse funded and I understand people are like, well, I don't want to. You know that's. People just need to figure out how to get their lives together, I agree. But you're making a choice then. You're either deciding we're not going to help somebody so they'll get where you want them to go, or you'll leave them on the street so they won't go where they're going to go. So you know again, these are choices that we are making. I am so happy to live in a city and a county that is as generous as it is. I mean, houston is one of the, I think, premier cities for the purpose of the fact that people actually care, kind, friendly, smart, innovative. I think the other piece for us is really having to get more upstream. That 40% scares me. That is devastating to a system you want to right-size or actually shrink Like. I don't want you to have me on a call 10 years from now and I've grown the homeless response system by three sizes Like somebody should fire me. That's not-. Chris: Work yourself out of a job. Kelly: Right, exactly, and so right-sizing ours, with the right amount of funding and then really pushing upstream to figure out how healthcare doesn't release people back onto the street with serious illnesses. Re-entry that's dealt with. Somebody who's hit a hard time can quickly get rehoused because we're helping for a few months. That's just being good neighbors, right. So I think that's pretty easy for people. We have a lot of work ahead of us, but I have the world's smartest team and the people who built this system and have watched over it the last 12 years. We're only gonna figure out the right and have watched over it the last 12 years. You know we're only going to figure out the right and the best path with the resources and the influence we have coming forward. Chris: Very good. Yeah, I think the future is very bright with the right people. So you know this is, you know, fundamentally, it's a business podcast and one of the things that you know, some of the data that I love to share is I always tell people, you know, when it comes to this homeless response and taking care of our neighbors who have fallen on this, you know, unfortunate time, there's a compassionate side, you know, which is, you know, obvious. But there's also a business side and some people you know connect on that and just share the numbers on the cost it takes to, you know, house someone on an annual basis versus if they're left on the street and use our public health system, et cetera. Because to me, if business owners are listening and thinking about this, the investment in the homeless response system is a no-brainer. Kelly: Right when we look at the numbers and I'm going to add for inflation, because we'll probably be in a recession next year is what I understand. Of course, they say that every year and I'm like, really at some point you know we're either or we're not, I don't know. No reason to even use the R word, right? Can we come up with something else, because this feels like a whole new thing. But I think you know you're talking about to house somebody and to make sure that they have access to the current systems that they need. Through their appointments and I always stress this they do not get to live for free, there is no free housing. They have to pay a percentage of their income or their benefits 30%, like the rest of us, and so for that it's $19,000 to $25,000 a year, not an overextensive amount of money you can go up to, depending on how often somebody uses other services up to $250,000 for them to stay on the street, and the reason for that is that every time you call the police on them, you have to count that money. Every time they go into an emergency room, you have to count all of that money. It's not to say they won't use those services, but they'll use them appropriately, which right sizes the dollars in the systems. So, right now, all this money. People are saying, well, we don't have the money. I'm like we do, we're systems. So right now, all this money. People are saying, well, we don't have the money. Chris: I'm like we do, we're just it's in the wrong bucket. Kelly: That's right. And if we moved it over and we agreed to just pay this for the next three years? I mean, if you're willing to pay a hundred dollars a month for charity, why are you not willing to pay one percent on your beer or your vaping? You don't even see that and get it to the point where you see the reduction in the rest of your costs and then you actually feel the relief on the tax end. You know, because you're not paying more and more on those parts of it. Wayne Young with the mental health services demonstrates that from a diversion point, for people with severe mental health to get into care is a one to $5 save. So it's $1 for him to do. It costs $5 for them to stay on the street, so economically it makes no sense. It's not cheaper. You're avoiding the problem instead of solving it and from any good business standpoint that's not what you do. You define the problem, you solve the problem. Chris: Right To summarize right I mean support the housing homeless response system. It's roughly $19,000 to $25,000 a year to do it and help us move people into housing and off the street. Leave them on the street. You're looking at annual cost of $100,000 to $250,000 to our system. Kelly: Right. And just the burnout rate of everybody trying to solve that and the trauma and the individual. I'm always going to add compassion to the dollars. But if you actually really care about that individual instead of just want them off the individual, I'm always going to add compassion to the dollars. But you know, if you actually really care about that individual instead of just want them off the street, I don't actually even care. You can have either of those opinions, doesn't matter to me. But it's going to be cheaper, more efficient, more effective if you buy into the response system and ensure that we have the right interventions for those people and don't have to wait till something terrible happens to be able to do this again. Chris: And ultimately all of that will make our community better and stronger. Kelly: Absolutely, absolutely. When you look at the best player on a team, you also have to look at the one who's struggling. And you bring up the one who's struggling. You spend less time on the one who's already figured it all out. But if you're in a team, you're in a community, you're looking at who's struggling and how do we get them to some level of consistency in their lives or whatever. Otherwise, we're always going to have to play down to that denominator. Chris: Kelly, this has been a fascinating conversation. Thank you Really appreciated your thoughts and sharing those with our listeners. I want to turn it to a little bit more of a fun, lighter side before we wrap up. Excellent, what was your? You may have said this earlier, cause you mentioned something when you were a teenager. What was your first job? Kelly: My first job was working at an ice cream store called Farrell's. I grew up in the Pacific Northwest and every time it was somebody's birthday you had to bang out the drum. You had to slide it over your head and bang out the drum, and they get this big thing called the zoo, which was like 150 scoops of ice cream and you had to wear this horrifying outfit with one of those straw hats that never sits on my head Cause I'm a little pointed, I think, and I you learn very quickly and this is why I love anybody who's ever done food service and was successful in it and why I have an affinity for them. You learn very quickly how difficult it is to run restaurants on margin, but also nobody wanted to do that and had to do it every single time. So that was my first real paying job that I got to check. Chris: Gotcha, yeah, and I knew you weren't from Texas and grew up in the Northwest, but you've been here long enough to be able to answer this question. Do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Kelly: Well, that's a good question. That's hard to decide, that's hard to define. I probably eat Tex-Mex more often, but I prefer barbecue, okay. Chris: Unique answer. Kelly: Yeah, I like it. That's an and yes answer. That's an improv technique. Very politically motivated or correct answer I just don't go to barbecue as much, but if I really sat down and thought about it, I prefer it. I just don't, for whatever reason, don't get there, which seems weird. Chris: Very good. Well, kelly. Thanks again for taking the time. This has been a great conversation. I'm looking forward to getting this out on all the social media. I hope people will listen and learn more about what is going on in our homeless response system. Kelly: Oh well, thank you so much for having me. I mean, I would do anything for you. I think you're amazing, so appreciate your time this morning. All right, talk with you later. Special Guest: Kelly Young.

Al and Kelly talk about Pumpkin panic Join Al and Kelly in a quick journey through the world of cottagecore gaming. They share their experiences with “Pumpkin Panic,” discuss recent news, and leave you feeling cozy and inspired. Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:03:00: What Have We Been Up To 00:13:42: News 00:55:48: Pumpkin Panic 01:24:30: Outro Links Disney Dreamlight Valley Leaves Early Access Spirittea Release Len’s Island Roadmap Updated Moonstone Island Updated and DLC Released Stardew Valley Horseradish Juice Echoes of the Plum Grove Steam Page Echoes of the Plum Grove Kickstarter Pumpkin Panic Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Al: Hello farmers and welcome to another episode of the harvest season. (0:00:36) Al: My name is Al, and we’re here today to talk about cottagecore games. (0:00:37) Kelly: And my name is Kelly. (0:00:38) Kelly: Woo! (0:00:43) Al: Two weeks in a row Kelly, what’s happening here? (0:00:50) Kelly: I know. It’s even funny because Kevin brought it up. I did last year’s Halloween. (0:00:56) Kelly: Which I totally forgot. Because I totally forgot Cult of the Lamb came out last year. (0:00:56) Al: Yes. That was last year, my word, wild. Yes. Yeah, yeah. I mean, why not? But hey, I’m on, I think this is, is this my first Halloween ep? No, no, I was on one with Rochelle, the original Graveyard Keeper one, I think, I was on. But I hadn’t played the game, so Rochelle I was basically just telling me. (0:01:01) Kelly: Yeah. It’s just my season. I don’t know what to say. (0:01:18) Kelly: I was gonna say Kevin brought that up last time actually, yeah. (0:01:22) Kelly: Okay. (0:01:24) Kelly: Well, welcome to your own podcast Halloween episode. (0:01:26) Al: about it and I was asking questions, but I think I’ve not been on any of the other Halloween episodes. So I’m here. Yay. Awesome. Well, thank you for joining us, Kelly. It’s good to talk to you again, even if Kevin did steal you from me for the last week. This one has been organized for much longer. Much longer. Yeah. Yeah. We have had a bunch of different ideas for last week and none of them were really like enough. (0:01:43) Kelly: Of course, thank you. (0:01:45) Kelly: I will say we planned this one. Yes. Last week was very impromptu. This is very much so planned. (0:02:01) Al: And there was a point where Kevin was like, I can’t do the recording time we have. And I’m like, well, I’m traveling the rest of the time. So so he kicked me off. He kicked me off my own podcast and and brought you on instead. So thank you very much for that. (0:02:16) Kelly: Always a pleasure. I did have to do a little, like, briefing on it though, because I hadn’t played Graveyard Keeper in, like, a year, and I was like, “Oh, what is this game again?” (0:02:19) Al: Oh, yes. Fair enough. (0:02:26) Al: Well, we don’t have that problem with this week’s game because it’s incredibly quick to play some of it and get a very good idea of what this game is. So this episode, we’re going to talk about pumpkin panic. And we’ll have lots to say about that later on in the episode. But yes, we’re going to talk about that just to mention that transcripts are available for the podcast in the show notes and on the website. So if you need that, that’s (0:02:57) Al: OK. Before we talk about pumpkin panic, we’re going to talk about the news. But first of all, Kelly, what have you been up to? (0:03:02) Kelly: I have been playing, I actually just finished this morning, I started playing the cosmic wheel of sisterhood. (0:03:16) Kelly: So this is an interactive story game where you play as a witch who has been banished from her coven, and you are kind of trying to make your way back. (0:03:32) Kelly: You play into your coven and you create tarot cards and you read the tarot cards to kind of create the gameplay in the world. (0:03:45) Kelly: And you have visitors. (0:03:48) Kelly: So I am not always great at story games because as much as I love reading, I also get very frustrated at a lot of stories in games. (0:03:53) Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:03:58) Kelly: And I thought this, they did this so good. (0:04:01) Kelly: I thought it was so much fun. (0:04:02) Kelly: Because you’re so hands-on with it. (0:04:03) Al: This seems a little bit more involved than a standard visual novel. (0:04:12) Al: Is it just mainly the one minigame that I’m seeing on this Steam page? (0:04:16) Kelly: Um, what is… what is… (0:04:18) Kelly: Um, kind of. So that’s like… (0:04:18) Al: with making the cards. (0:04:22) Kelly: You have that, you can do like there’s interactive stories within the story. (0:04:27) Kelly: Um, so there’s like different… I wouldn’t call them mini-games, but like the interactions are the rest of it. (0:04:33) Al: Right, OK. (0:04:33) Kelly: Um, and… (0:04:34) Al: But it’s not it’s not just like click a button and see the next. (0:04:36) Kelly: You kind of… like obviously… (0:04:40) Kelly: No, no, no, no. Yeah, there’s definitely… (0:04:42) Al: Here’s one choice sort of thing, right? (0:04:46) Kelly: You make the choices as to what you’re gonna do, who you would mite over to your little house. (0:04:50) Kelly: Um, and then… (0:04:53) Kelly: Even when you pull a tarot card, you have the choice as to how to explain the card. (0:04:57) Kelly: So, there is a lot of, um, leeway into how the interactions go and how the story itself is gonna go. (0:05:05) Kelly: So like I did a run, and I can do a totally different run next time. (0:05:06) Al: Okay. All right. (0:05:11) Kelly: So you do have you really do like you kind of write the story yourself as much as you can for you know (0:05:19) Al: It has very positive reviews on Steam, it has over a thousand. (0:05:23) Kelly: demo. There’s a demo which I would highly suggest playing because that’s definitely what I did and once I finished the demo I immediately bought the game and all of your stuff transfers over which is so nice because I hate when you start a demo especially for a game like this and you got to start it over. But yeah I thought it was like a very nice little like casual gameplay but like still very interesting. And like kind of emotional. (0:05:53) Al: Shocking when they make you feel things. How dare they? (0:05:53) Kelly: Right? What have you been up to, Al? (0:05:56) Al: Well, speaking of making you feeling things, before I get into games, I have watched the new film “Killers of the Flower Moon”. Have you seen… I presume you haven’t seen… (0:06:08) Kelly: I have not seen it yet, however I have owned that book for like a decade or so. (0:06:14) Al: Yeah, mm-hmm (0:06:15) Kelly: My dad bought it years ago. My dad’s a very big like historical novel kind of person and then we actually read it in my book club about two years ago or a year ago. I really enjoyed it. I thought the book was very good. I have not watched the movie yet, but I’ve heard very positive reviews. (0:06:28) Al: » Okay. Yeah. (0:06:38) Kelly: Even from the Native American community about the movie, of course there’s some things that probably could have been done differently, (0:06:45) Kelly: but I think that’s anytime it happens when you’re telling somebody else’s story. (0:06:46) Al: Hmm. I think, yeah, yeah, definitely. I think there’s a lot about the film that is obviously, (0:06:54) Al: you know, there’s some, you know, some racist stuff in the film, right? Obviously. But that’s the sort of thing where it’s like, well, yeah, but you’re talking about a, you know, a racist crime, (0:06:57) Kelly: Mm-hmm Yeah, yeah, you’re telling a story from 1930 or 20 or whatever (0:07:04) Al: right? Like, yeah, yeah, exactly. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s not, don’t go into expecting a good time. (0:07:15) Kelly: Yeah, and unfortunately I don’t think the story would be accurate if those things are kind of left out because they do play a big role in what’s going on with the story itself. (0:07:16) Al: No, of course. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I enjoyed that. It’s very long. It’s very long. So that’s why I was up really late on Thursday night because of that. (0:07:26) Kelly: But crazy. Yes. (0:07:37) Al: Because I saw the showing started at half seven and like I wasn’t home until quarter past midnight. (0:07:44) Kelly: Wow. Wow. (0:07:44) Al: So. (laughs) (0:07:46) Al: I don’t regret going to see it, it was very good. (0:07:49) Kelly: Which I feel like is such a… it’s such a hard thing to achieve with some of this… (0:07:49) Al: And I don’t think it was… (0:07:51) Al: Like, it doesn’t feel like it was unnecessarily long, right? (0:07:54) Al: Like, I feel like he was doing something with every minute that you had. (0:07:58) Al: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. (0:08:03) Kelly: these stories. Like, I mean, I feel like I didn’t see Oppenheimer, but I feel like that a lot of people talked about that. (0:08:09) Kelly: Feeling kind of like dragged out in a lot of spots. (0:08:12) Al: Interesting. Yeah, I suspect a lot of these things depends on how you feel about quiet moments that make you contemplate. Right. Absolutely. You can’t be talking about a massacre or about, (0:08:21) Kelly: Which I think these stories need those moments. (0:08:24) Kelly: So I don’t see anything wrong with that. (0:08:27) Kelly: Yeah, just on to the next scene. (0:08:30) Al: you know, wiping out of a city without having some moments to make you think, “Wow, that’s bad!” (0:08:40) Al: Exactly, exactly. So it’s quite great. (0:08:42) Al: So I enjoyed it. It was good. I don’t think I’m going to watch it a second time. It’s not like I’m going to watch this film again. But yeah. (0:08:54) Kelly: I will say on that note, the book is also extremely good. I know, Allie, you said you’re probably not going to read it, but if anybody out there is interested, very interesting. (0:09:05) Al: Yeah, people don’t really. Yeah. (0:09:10) Kelly: I think some historical novels can be kind of boring and dragged out because I do read a lot of history. This was very good. This was written in a way that like really you You just, you had to keep going. (0:09:24) Kelly: No matter what. It wasn’t, it wasn’t… (0:09:26) Kelly: Umm, oh my god, what’s his name? (0:09:28) Kelly: The Devil in White City guy, Eric Larson. (0:09:30) Kelly: I like some of his works. They can also be a bit cumbersome. (0:09:31) Al: Yeah. Fair enough. Yeah. I mean, just to make a point of it, like people don’t like when I talk about the fact that I don’t really read books, but I don’t really read books. (0:09:34) Kelly: So I don’t think it was like that. (0:09:47) Al: And it’s not like I read books as a child. And the problem is that I just I struggle because I don’t have like the visual aspect in my brain. Like I’m not I’m not able to see the things that are described. So so much of a book I just kind of skim over. (0:09:53) Kelly: Yes, yeah. (0:10:01) Al: Because it’s like descriptive stuff that doesn’t really mean anything because I can’t see it. (0:10:04) Kelly: Whereas I’m the complete opposite and I see everything in my head and then I get really mad when the movie comes out and skews my perspective on how I envisioned everything. (0:10:05) Al: Um… (0:10:12) Al: Yeah. I always found that hilarious when people were like, “Oh, it’s nothing like what it is in the book. It’s not like what I imagined it.” And I’m like, “What do you mean it’s nothing like what you imagined it?” I don’t understand what you mean by this. And now that I understand that people now make up images in their head, suddenly I understand what they mean now. They’re like, (0:10:22) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:10:32) Kelly: Yep Yep, it’s it’s so funny cuz like my roommate is like you she can’t see anything in her head and I’m like, well What do you what do you mean? What do you how are you living? I don’t understand Well, I am That is the that is the issue Thank you. (0:10:33) Al: “Oh, this isn’t exactly what I had imagined in my head.” (0:10:46) Al: Oh, I’m just like, how do you ever get anything done? Are you not constantly distracted by the things in your head? (0:11:00) Al: So I’ve also played a bunch of games, because I apparently haven’t been on the podcast for multiple episodes. So I have played and finished Sonic Superstars and Mario Wonder, and I have been playing through the new Spider-Man game. That is taking me longer, because just like It’s on my PS5, you have to kind of sit down and deliver. (0:11:16) Al: All those games are great, Sonic Super Star is good, Mario Wonder is fantastic, Spider-Man is fantastic. (0:11:28) Al: Both of those two games did things that I couldn’t, I just wouldn’t have expected what they did. (0:11:36) Al: It’s not just like, oh there are another version of this game, right? (0:11:41) Al: They both do things that are like, this is brand new stuff, really interesting. (0:11:41) Kelly: I think that’s so exciting, especially for the Mario games because I feel like, you know, (0:11:46) Al: That I really, really like. (0:11:48) Al: Yeah. (0:11:50) Al: Yeah. (0:11:52) Kelly: how long has it been? (0:11:52) Al: Yeah. (0:11:53) Kelly: How many games have come out? (0:11:54) Al: Yeah. (0:11:55) Kelly: Like, how do you keep reinventing the wheel? (0:11:56) Al: Yeah, definitely. (0:11:58) Kelly: But it’s still exciting to find out that they can. (0:11:58) Al: Yeah, and I think, I mean I don’t think they need to do that for every single game. (0:12:02) Kelly: No! (0:12:02) Al: Like I enjoyed every game in the new series. (0:12:07) Al: Like they’re all fun, they don’t have to be completely different, they all have new challenges in their different levels. (0:12:13) Al: levels but it is also fun to occasionally get like this is just. (0:12:16) Al: Just a completely different way of thinking and the the Wonderflowers just do just crazy things in the levels that make it just so different. (0:12:26) Al: You know it’s not just like oh here’s a different power-up and the new power-ups are fun as well but it’s not just like oh this one’s a bubble instead of a fire right and that’s that’s fun but it’s not like a radical idea whereas like the Wonderflowers are like what if this was a top-down game instead of a side-scroller and you’re like. (0:12:46) Al: Like what if apparently now we’re doing that you know like I think it’s the weird stuff that they did with that game and it’s like what if the Piranha plant sang you know. (0:12:57) Kelly: Oh my god, I saw the clips of that, they’re so cute! (0:13:02) Al: It’s just like I love the idea of that it’s just brainstorm a hundred and the weird thing is every single level has one right it’s not like this is the sort of thing that you wouldn’t you if if they told you but you’re like oh that’d be fun so like you know it’d be like all the boss battles. (0:13:16) Al: Have them or what like this. (0:13:16) Kelly: That’s cool. That’s very cool. (0:13:18) Al: A couple of levels in every world. (0:13:20) Al: Every single world has one. (0:13:25) Al: So yeah, good fun. (0:13:26) Al: I’ve also been playing Harvest Moon Winds of Anthos because I need to play that. (0:13:32) Al: So I’ll talk about that next week. (0:13:35) Al: I don’t think we need to talk about that just now. (0:13:39) Al: It is what it is. (0:13:40) Al: Cool. (0:13:41) Al: News. Should we talk about some news? (0:13:47) Al: Let’s start with the controversial stuff. (0:13:50) Al: Disney Dreamlight Valley. (0:13:51) Al: Have you played this yet? (0:13:52) Kelly: No, I have not. I think when it first like when they first announced it I was like oh this looks really cute If I’m not playing anything, I’ll probably play it Yes So I don’t think I will be playing Because like free to play You know, I know there’s gonna be some payment stuff, but you can kind of avoid it sometimes (0:14:00) Al: Yeah, were you waiting for it to go free to play? That’s the question. (0:14:04) Al: Yeah, well wait no longer! It is no longer going to be free to play! (0:14:08) Al: I think this is fast, so this is okay, so full context. (0:14:16) Al: Yes, yeah definitely. (0:14:23) Kelly: Or at least you can get an idea of what the game is before you decide to put money into it Yes, sorry jumping ahead (0:14:27) Al: so yeah so let’s okay well let’s put that let’s put the (0:14:30) Al: the discussion of that bit aside let’s let’s get into the actual news of it so the game is leaving early access on the 5th of december so that will be the first full version of the game whatever that means they have announced that it’s not going to be free to play anymore so you will have to to buy it they have also announced that there is going to be a paid dlc coming which they’re going to detail you’ll know more about this when you listen to this episode because they’re going to be saying more about it on the day this episode comes out (0:15:00) Al: that next week as well but they have also said that they are still going to continue to have free content updates so it’s not all going to be paid dlc I think that there are so many different ways to buy this game now it’s weird have you looked at the so in the main link on there they’ve got a list of the new ways to buy the game which is like you can just buy the game for $40 or you you can buy the physical cozy edition. (0:15:26) Kelly: Oh, I saw this. (0:15:30) Al: Which also gives you some stuff and that’s $50 or you can buy the gold edition, which also has more exclusive items and gives you the DLC or you can buy the DLC separately and these purchase options are on top of what the current purchase options are for early access, which you can still do until the 4th of December. (0:15:52) Al: I know it’s so bizarre. (0:15:53) Kelly: I think I got a headache just looking at this earlier. (0:15:58) Kelly: I was like, what is this, a streaming service? (0:16:00) Kelly: What the hell is this? (0:16:00) Al: I think I just it feels like so I think you can you can frame not being free to play as positive and negative right negative obviously a bunch of people who were like yeah I get to play the game without paying for it now don’t get to do that they either have to pay or they don’t get to play the game and that’s really frustrating I get why people would be frustrated by that. (0:16:22) Al: On the other hand obviously we know that free to play games are very manipulative and are very good at sucking. (0:16:26) Kelly: Oh, absolutely, yes. (0:16:28) Kelly: Well, so that’s what I was gonna ask, right? Like they’re not removing microtransactions from the game. (0:16:30) Al: But it’s not like there aren’t going to be ways to pay for things inside the game after you’ve bought it. (0:16:37) Al: No so I it feels like they’re just doing a bit of both worlds which. (0:16:42) Kelly: Yes, they want their cake and they’re gonna have their cake and eat it too kind of thing. (0:16:46) Al: Yeah yeah it’s not not great. (0:16:49) Kelly: And then the the $40 base price is kind of wild. (0:16:52) Al: It does seem let me so let me double check. (0:16:56) Kelly: To go from free-to-play to $40? (0:16:59) Kelly: Oh wait, so if you paid for early access, does that come out of the base? (0:17:00) Al: The early access prices. (0:17:02) Al: Because. (0:17:04) Al: So if you paid for access you have the game now so you don’t have to buy the game again and they’ve also said as a thank you to our early access players all unique cosmetic items included in the upcoming gold edition will be given free of charge to any player who purchases and claims of founders pack in game or on on or before December the 4th no matter the tier. (0:17:30) Kelly: Okay, that’s nice because I think… (0:17:30) Al: And not only that but all founders will also receive 2500 min stones to celebrate this that’s. (0:17:32) Kelly: Okay, that’s nice. (0:17:39) Kelly: Nice. (0:17:41) Al: So let me just double check the prices for… (0:17:47) Al: Yes, so here we are. So there’s three different versions you can buy in Early Access. (0:17:50) Al: Well, this is the thing. This is where it’s wild. So there’s the standard Founders Edition, (0:17:51) Kelly: Oh my god. But how many tears? (0:18:01) Al: which is the Early Access to Dreamland Valley plus 8,000 Moonstones plus a bunch of exclusive stuff, (0:18:08) Al: and that is $30. So $10. (0:18:11) Al: cheaper than the final price. And then there’s the deluxe founders rewards which gives you 14,500 moonstones. I don’t know why they insist on always like it’s not 15, why not 15? Weird. And a bunch of more exclusive items and that one I don’t have a price for but I think it might have been, it was either 50 or 60. (0:18:34) Kelly: Well, that’s 50 on here, on the regular one. (0:18:36) Al: Yeah. I think, I think… (0:18:42) Al: Yeah, it’s 50, 50. And then there’s the ultimate founders edition which gives you 20,000 moonstones and a bunch of extra cosmetic things. And that one was $6, $70? (0:18:58) Kelly: Okay, I think that makes sense because the gold edition for the standard game is (0:19:03) Al: So there are like seven different ways to buy this game. All with different things. (0:19:08) Kelly: Oh my god. (0:19:10) Kelly: And then the DLC is $30. (0:19:11) Al: So it’s like if you… Yes, which is only included in the Gold Edition, not as far as I can tell, (0:19:19) Al: any of the Early Access editions. So if you have Early Access, you still have to pay for the (0:19:25) Kelly: I have some things I’d like to say, and I’m gonna maybe keep them to myself. (0:19:31) Al: So I will say you do get a capybara companion if you buy the gold edition. (0:19:31) Kelly: It is very cute. It’s very cute. It has a flower crown. (0:19:40) Al: A flowery capybara companion. (0:19:41) Kelly: I mean, you can’t go wrong with the capybara. (0:19:46) Al: True that. (0:19:48) Kelly: Listen, the game looks so cute. I think that’s why this is kind of so disappointing. (0:19:52) Al: Yes, yeah, yeah, it is. (0:19:59) Al: So I think it is a good game and if you said to me this game… (0:20:01) Al: Why did they say that? Why did they even say that? (0:20:04) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:20:20) Kelly: Exactly. They made the promise. Yeah. (0:20:23) Kelly: And that’s so frustrating because that’s what they’ve been writing on since they announced this. Like why, why, why? And then to announce the changes a month before. (0:20:37) Al: Just why? (0:20:39) Al: I know, I know, I know it’s so… (0:20:40) Kelly: And then also, so if you buy the cozy edition, besides the flowery capybara and the expansion (0:20:50) Kelly: is there anything else you’re missing? Like are you limited from gameplay? Okay. (0:20:52) Al: No, no you’re not, you’re not. So the only gameplay, so everything that’s exclusive outside of the expansion pass, everything that’s exclusive is just cosmetics. If you buy, if you… it is, isn’t it? It’s not quite that bad yet, but it definitely feels like that’s where they’re going yes the funny thing is (0:21:07) Kelly: Okay, that’s a little bit better, but you know what? It’s giving me sims. (0:21:14) Kelly: No, but it’s getting there. Yeah. (0:21:22) Al: right see if you buy the base game and you buy the expansion pass that’s one cent cheaper than buying the gold edition which gives you the base game and the expansion pass I mean it also gives you the it does give you the capacity is the capybara worth one cent that’s the it just seems like why is the gold edition the same price as it seems weird (0:21:33) Kelly: Yeah, but no capybara. (0:21:47) Kelly: It does, like also, like okay so if you if you do really want to play this game, (0:21:51) Kelly: why would you buy the base edition and the expansion pack instead of just buying the gold edition? (0:21:55) Kelly: Again, this is just such a headache to look at. (0:21:55) Al: Yeah, yeah, well, that’s that yeah, so yeah seven different seven different ways to buy this game You either buy it in one of the three early access ways of buying it or you buy it in one of the three Non-early access ways to buy it if you wait till the 5th of December and then you either buy the expansion mass or not We don’t know what’s in the expansion pass exactly they’ll be telling us that on Wednesday today if you’re listening on the day this comes out (0:22:24) Al: There are some hints. (0:22:25) Al: There we’ve seen Gaston and… oh is that Rapunzel? I think it’s Rapunzel. (0:22:33) Kelly: Oh, yes, that’s Rapunzel in the back. And then, uh, Eva. Eve, Eve. (0:22:34) Al: Who’s the little robot? Oh was that from Wally? (0:22:38) Kelly: Eeeve. (0:22:40) Kelly: Yeah, from Wally. (0:22:41) Al: Okay I still haven’t seen Wally. I know, I know. So I went through a period of time of just not watching Disney Pixar stuff. (0:22:42) Kelly: What? (0:22:44) Kelly: Ugh. (0:22:47) Kelly: I mean, I’ve never seen Tangled, so whatever, but Wally’s so good. (0:22:52) Al: I have seen (0:22:55) Al: a few of them since, but I haven’t caught up on all of them. I just watched, what’s it called, Elemental today. (0:23:10) Kelly: How was it? I get clips on TikTok and it seems pretty cute. (0:23:14) Kelly: I feel like the trailer kind of made it seem like it was going to be like a knock-off uh… (0:23:14) Al: I enjoyed it, yeah. It’s better than the trailer that made me think it was going to be. (0:23:22) Kelly: How am I… I’m blanking on it. (0:23:24) Kelly: No, um… I can’t think right now. I don’t know. (0:23:25) Al: Anything can roll me on Juliet. (0:23:30) Kelly: It just felt very familiar, I guess, if that… (0:23:34) Al: Yeah, it is. There’s nothing particular about it that’s interesting on you, but I think it does a good job of being a fun and enjoyable and emotional way of exploring immigration and an immigrant’s family’s journey and some of those struggles. I think it does a good job. (0:23:50) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:23:52) Kelly: That’s uh, that’s like kind of like again, I watched a lot of clips on tiktok. I get so sucked into the movie clips on tiktok But I think that that’s exactly the vibe I got to I was like very surprised I feel like With the difference between the trailer and how the actual movie seemed to be See ya later. (0:24:03) Al: fair. (0:24:16) Al: Yeah. I don’t know what that trailer was about, because like the trailer came out and everyone went “this looks terrible, what are you doing?” and then the phone came out and people were like “yes, yes, sorry, it’s good, it’s good, it’s enjoyable”. Yeah. Yeah. I’m not going to say it’s the best Pixar film, but it’s certainly not the worst. It’s good. I enjoyed it. Yeah, so that’s, we don’t, we’ve seen Gaston and Rapunzel and would you say Eve? (0:24:19) Kelly: Bye. (0:24:27) Kelly: Yeah, I feel like every review I’ve seen of it, people really liked it, like they enjoyed it, so… (0:24:46) Kelly: Eve, yeah. I think that Eve, Eevee, something like that? Not Eevee, but it’s like that, yeah. (0:24:46) Al: And there’s a snake and a pig. So we don’t know a huge amount, we’ll see, but it’s, I don’t think so. (0:24:57) Kelly: Is that the jungle book? (0:24:58) Kelly: No, that’s not the snake from the jungle book. (0:25:03) Kelly: Oh, there’s a creature in the tree too. (0:25:05) Kelly: That is the jungle book. (0:25:07) Kelly: Look at the monkey in the tree. (0:25:09) Kelly: I’m pretty sure that’s the jungle book. (0:25:11) Al: Anyway, well, no more. It’s interesting that this is their first paid DLC, so they are locking content behind another paywall, which is what it is. I’m not saying that’s necessarily a bad thing. I’m just saying it is what it is. So don’t expect to pay the base price of the game and get all of the updates for free forever. That’s not going to happen. (0:25:22) Kelly: Which I think is just… (0:25:24) Kelly: Yes. (0:25:34) Kelly: I just think it’s a little wild to go from free to play to the base game is free and then the DLC is also the same price as like a game. (0:25:36) Al: It’s not Stardew Valley. (0:25:41) Al: Well, that’s the thing. If you want to now play everything that will be available on the 5th of December, it’s gone from zero to $70. Yes, you say there’s going to be more free content updates, but you know there’s going to be more paid DLC as well. (0:26:01) Kelly: Oh, and like you said, there’s transactions in the game probably too, right? (0:26:04) Al: Yep, yep, yep. So I never outright bought it. (0:26:06) Kelly: Do you have early access or no? (0:26:11) Al: Although I will now be buying it because I was waiting for it to be free before I got it on Switch. But I did have it on Game Pass for a while, and I was playing it on that. (0:26:14) Kelly: Well… (0:26:16) Kelly: Oh, uh, okay. (0:26:25) Al: The thing that I’m frustrated with free to play is not that I have to pay for the game. (0:26:28) Al: I’m fine with paying for the game. What I’m frustrated is I now have to decide what I’m playing it on. When it’s free to play, it would mean I could have it on everything and choose depending on how I’m feeling on the day or how they play on different platforms. (0:26:29) Kelly: - Yeah. (0:26:41) Al: Whereas now I need to go, or no, I need to decide do I want to on Switch or do I want to on Steam Deck. (0:26:45) Kelly: Mm-hmm That’s fair I just I think it’s just I’m mostly annoyed about being told the whole time that it’s gonna be free to play and then Getting the rug pulled out from under you a month before (0:26:46) Al: I think I’m going to do it. (0:26:54) Al: It’s bizarre. Never make these decisions upfront. Yeah. Wild. Never say, “Oh, next year when release is good.” Just don’t do it. It’s pointless. It is. I mean, it doesn’t feel like it should be that big a promise for, you know, one of the biggest companies in the world. (0:27:05) Kelly: It’s a big promise to make. (0:27:07) Kelly: No, no, no, no, it shouldn’t. (0:27:12) Kelly: I think that’s another point that I was trying not to bring up is like, come on, like of all people Do you really need to be charging this much? (0:27:21) Al: Yeah, I suspect. What I suspect is they didn’t expect it to be as popular as it has been and people to like it as much. Like, this is a good game, right? This isn’t one of these, like, “Oh, they’ve just thrown some money at someone and got a really rubbish game based on a film,” right? This is a really good game, and if you like Disney characters, (0:27:42) Al: this is a great game to play because there’s so much lore and you get to, like, be friends with the characters that you like in the games. It’s really good fun. (0:27:51) Al: And the farming is good. It’s not their best, but it’s good. It’s a good game. That’s part of the problem is I think they were probably expecting it to be a standard free to play game. The people who made those decisions, right? We’re expecting it to be like, Oh, (0:28:05) Al: this isn’t a game we’re going to manage to convince people to pay for. Oh wait, no people like the game. Oh, well, we’re gonna, we’re gonna charge people in, you know. (0:28:12) Kelly: And I think back to your point, like, I’m not… I mean, obviously I grew up on Disney, whatever. (0:28:19) Kelly: I’m not the biggest Disney person. I still wanted to play the game. Like, it looked like a good game. (0:28:24) Al: It is. It is a good farming game. It is a good cottagecore game. (0:28:26) Kelly: But I think now, like, someone like me, I’m not gonna play this game, to be quite honest. (0:28:31) Al: Yeah. (0:28:34) Kelly: Because I’m not gonna pay, whatever, 40 bucks at the minimum. (0:28:38) Kelly: I mean, to be honest, I’m mostly playing indie games, so like… (0:28:42) Kelly: He paying $40 is like, I really wanted to play this game. (0:28:42) Al: Yes, it’s cheap compared to some games, but… (0:28:45) Kelly: Yes. But by my standards, that’s a triple-A game. (0:28:52) Kelly: Literally. (0:28:53) Al: You could buy Stardew four times for that price. (0:28:55) Kelly: Literally. (0:28:59) Al: You could buy Stardew on all your consoles if you wanted, and you probably already have. (0:29:06) Al: Last couple of things, the Cozy Edition, as we mentioned, that’s the… (0:29:12) Al: physical edition. (0:29:13) Al: I do not know why they’re calling it this, it is a stupid name, but whatever. (0:29:17) Al: It has been delayed until the 10th of November, except the Switch version in North America. (0:29:25) Al: All the other versions have been delayed. (0:29:26) Kelly: How lucky. (0:29:29) Al: It’s such a weird… (0:29:30) Al: I mean, first of all, who’s buying this game physically? (0:29:33) Al: That is a weird decision to make. (0:29:35) Al: I don’t… (0:29:35) Kelly: I could see if it was released closer to Christmas or something. (0:29:36) Al: Why are you… yeah, okay, I guess that’s a good point. (0:29:39) Kelly: Like, does anything come with it? (0:29:41) Kelly: No, no, I mean like physical. (0:29:42) Al: Yeah, you do get a few cosmetics extra with it, but that’s all. (0:29:47) Al: Oh, no. (0:29:47) Kelly: No, then no. (0:29:49) Al: No, no, it’s just a case with the game and a code that gives you some extra cosmetics, (0:29:49) Kelly: Oh, not even… yeah, no, no, no. (0:29:58) Al: that’s it. (0:30:00) Al: I think, yeah, you’re probably right though, that’s exactly it. (0:30:03) Al: It’s because people will buy a game for people physically, right? (0:30:06) Kelly: Yeah. (0:30:06) Kelly: I was about to say, “Your grandma can buy a friend.” (0:30:07) Al: That’s why they always do that, because then your grandmother can walk into a shop and buy a game for you. (0:30:12) Al: Oh, they like Disney. (0:30:14) Al: Yeah, that’s exactly what it is, isn’t it? (0:30:14) Kelly: Exactly. (0:30:16) Kelly: Oh, Disney characters? (0:30:17) Kelly: This is perfect. (0:30:20) Al: Don’t buy this game physically. (0:30:23) Al: It’s weird decision to make. (0:30:24) Al: I mean, do what you want. (0:30:26) Al: I’m not. Anyway, and I guess the final point to say is that Micah has finally been vindicated because he bought the game not knowing it was going to be free to play. (0:30:35) Al: And turns out it’s not going to be free to play. (0:30:36) Kelly: Oh, really? (0:30:40) Al: So he gets the last laugh. (0:30:43) Al: I think. Yeah, he didn’t. (0:30:45) Al: It was really funny because we were I can’t remember when it was. (0:30:47) Al: But the first episode that I had him on after the game came out, (0:30:52) Al: we were talking about how he was playing it and then how he bought it. (0:30:54) Al: And then I’d mentioned that it was going to be free to play. (0:30:57) Al: And he was like, wait, what? (0:30:58) Al: It was very funny. (0:31:01) Al: I think he bought the Ultimate Founders Edition as well. (0:31:02) Kelly: Well, it seems like he was gonna pay the money no matter what, so… (0:31:03) Al: So that’s like he paid the seventy dollars. (0:31:06) Al: Well, yeah, that’s true. (0:31:08) Kelly: You know, I feel like in that instance, it doesn’t matter if it was free to play or not. (0:31:13) Al: That’s true, that’s true. (0:31:14) Al: I think that’s everything about that. Wow, we just spent 15 minutes talking about that. (0:31:21) Al: Cool, so there you go. 5th of December, that’s the important thing. If you want any of the special stuff that comes with only early access, go get that as soon as you can. If you don’t, (0:31:34) Al: then don’t. If you’re not going to buy this game, I’m sorry. There we go. (0:31:39) Al: Speaking of games coming out with less controversy. (0:31:42) Al: Spirit tea. So this is the farming game slash Spirited away type game where you are running a tea Once ago tea. Yeah. Yes And Yeah, I kick started it when I came out because I’m I thought I I actually have access to the game already I know right (0:31:55) Kelly: It’s like a tea house, bath shop. (0:31:58) Kelly: It looks so cute. (0:31:59) Kelly: I wanna get this. (0:32:01) Kelly: This is, I’m definitely getting. (0:32:08) Kelly: Oh my god. (0:32:12) Al: So, yeah, I kick started the game looking forward to playing it it is the is finally releasing on the 13th of November So if you have been looking forward to running your own little tea house tea shop wherever you want to call it with a bath house and Play with some spirits. I don’t I don’t know the right words to use with this game yet. Go go get it It’s mostly one guy who’s been developing it for a bunch of years. He’s working with a publisher But yeah, if you like game– (0:32:42) Al: games that are as indie as they come, go get it. (0:32:47) Al: Yeah, yeah, it’s not just your standard. (0:32:47) Kelly: It looks like a nice little spin on the farming game. (0:32:55) Al: Go plant some turnips and then you get better crops. (0:32:58) Kelly: Yeah. (0:32:59) Al: Lens Island have updated their roadmap, (0:33:04) Al: so they have said that their 1.0 is coming out in July 2024. (0:33:09) Al: I think this is the first official date we got from them. (0:33:12) Al: We had got some– they’d originally wanted to release it this year, (0:33:16) Al: and then at some point they’d said it would be next year. (0:33:20) Kelly: That’s nice to get a solid time actually. It always is. You’re talking to the person waiting for Silksong here, I know. (0:33:23) Al: It’s dangerous, but yeah, nice. So I look forward to Lens Island coming out in November of next year. (0:33:36) Al: They’ve also said there are going to be two more updates this year. One in November, (0:33:47) Al: which, oh look, it’s November now, and one in December, and then there’ll be a final. (0:33:53) Al: Major update before the final release in March of next year, and then the final release in July of next year. So if you are waiting for that one point of release of Lens Island, (0:34:06) Al: that’s when you’re going for it. I actually own this game as well, and I haven’t played it. (0:34:11) Al: It’s quite combat focused this game, and when I first got it when it first entered Early Access, (0:34:22) Al: because I kickstarted that. (0:34:23) Al: I need to stop kickstarting things. (0:34:26) Al: I kickstart all the farming games. (0:34:28) Kelly: You just want to be hip and say, “I was here first.” [laughs] (0:34:29) Al: It’s a sickness, Kelly. (0:34:32) Al: Yeah, I know, right? (0:34:38) Al: They didn’t have controller support at that point. (0:34:41) Al: And of course, I was playing it on my Steam Deck, so it was not fun to play with. (0:34:46) Al: So I spent like five minutes and went, nope, not doing this. (0:34:48) Al: I’m waiting for controller support. (0:34:48) Kelly: Wait, if it didn’t have– (0:34:51) Kelly: how does that work, then? (0:34:53) Al: I think you can map any button or any touchpad or anything to any standard PC controls. (0:35:03) Al: So you can say, if I press this button, (0:35:06) Al: I press this keyboard button or I press this mouse button or I do this gesture or there’s loads of clever things you can do, and it works really well for a lot of things, but it wasn’t working for this. (0:35:17) Kelly: That’s very fair. (0:35:18) Al: I was like, I need to wait for official controller support for this one. (0:35:19) Kelly: I do think it’s funny that the release date on Steam is November 26, 2021. (0:35:22) Al: So that’s what I did. (0:35:28) Kelly: ‘Cause it’s 2023? (0:35:28) Al: Why is that date funny? (0:35:31) Al: OK, well, that was the early access release date. (0:35:32) Kelly: I know, I know, but I’m just saying it’s funny to like sit here and look at the news about, you know, it getting released next year. (0:35:35) Al: OK. (0:35:37) Al: Yes, yes. (0:35:42) Al: Moonstone Island are I think I think you and Kevin talked about the DLC for that last week, they’ve announced that there is a free update coming with the DLC as well, which should be out now. (0:35:57) Al: So it includes an expansion to the green. (0:35:58) Al: House closing old mine holes. (0:36:01) Al: I don’t know what that means. (0:36:03) Al: Who knows? (0:36:03) Kelly: Umm, okay. (0:36:06) Kelly: I’m assuming monsters come out of the mine holes, maybe? (0:36:10) Al: I think it’s a creature collection game. (0:36:10) Kelly: I don’t know. (0:36:12) Kelly: Stop the children from falling down the mines. (0:36:13) Al: It’s a creature. (0:36:15) Al: Yeah, we do. We don’t want that. (0:36:18) Al: Inventory manage improvements and adjustable day length are the big things that they were highlighting. There’s I mean, the patch notes are much more detailed. I’m not going through them. (0:36:28) Al: There’s a lot of stuff. I’ll link it in the show notes. (0:36:31) Al: Go look at that if you care about it. (0:36:32) Al: Yeah. Yeah. (0:36:32) Kelly: Yeah, this is the one it had a ton of updates last week too or two weeks ago Okay, that makes sense, but it seems like they’re really working to you know update any of these little issues (0:36:37) Al: I think most of it was like bug fixing and stuff. (0:36:39) Al: This is the first kind of like content update, I think. (0:36:42) Al: Content and feature update. (0:36:43) Al: So this is. Yeah, it’s. (0:36:45) Al: Yes. Yes, they are. (0:36:51) Al: This is one of those ones that I probably do want to play at some point, but. (0:36:55) Kelly: It looks really cute, too. It really does. I would like to play this. (0:36:55) Al: It does. It does. (0:36:58) Kelly: I mean, me too. I’m a sucker for collection in general. (0:36:58) Al: It’s also creature collection, and I’m a sucker for creature collection. (0:37:01) Al: Well, yes, that too. That too. (0:37:07) Al: That too. (0:37:08) Al: Yeah. Stardew Valley. (0:37:12) Al: Concerned Ape is continuing to just trickle things out. (0:37:15) Kelly: He’s been just dropping things. Yeah, like he it’s like it’s making me so annoyed because I’m like I don’t want to play stardew. I like I always do I do I’m actively spending my life fighting the urge to play stardew valley [laugh] (0:37:17) Al: I know. (0:37:18) Al: No, you do. You do, though. You do. (0:37:25) Al: You don’t lie. You want to play. (0:37:28) Al: What I love is like some of them are like, “here’s the most tiny little thing like this one, which is just a screenshot of wild horseradish juice.” (0:37:42) Kelly: Yeah. (0:37:42) Al: And my reaction was, “Oh, is that not already in the game? Okay!” (0:37:43) Kelly: I literally when I looked at it I was like oh yeah you can’t do anything with horseradish can you? (0:37:51) Al: So some of them are like this tiny thing where it’s just like, “Oh yeah, the update’s gonna have horseradish juice!” (0:37:58) Al: And then there was the one a few weeks ago which was like, “Here’s just like detailed ten bullet points of what’s coming in the update.” (0:38:04) Al: And you’re like, “Oh, okay!” (0:38:05) Kelly: Yep, listen, I would take every single one of these, I’m like, cool, awesome, great. (0:38:12) Kelly: But yeah, no, I saw this one and I was like, oh, another thing for me to micromanage. (0:38:18) Al: ALICE (KEEPER) Kelly, did you ever play any of the 1.5 update stuff? So that’s Ginger Island and stuff like that. (0:38:24) Kelly: Yes, so I started with actually my first Switch game. (0:38:26) Al: ALICE (KEEPER) I mean, I think it was for a lot of people. (0:38:28) Kelly: Yes, um… (0:38:32) Kelly: But I got my Switch a year later, so I was a year behind everybody. (0:38:33) Al: ALICE It came out nice and early in 2017 and yeah. Fair enough. Yeah. That’s all right, (0:38:39) Kelly: But I played it then, yes, and then I played it two years ago. (0:38:41) Al: so were the updates. (0:38:45) Al: Yeah. (0:38:45) Kelly: Yes, so Ginger Island had come out, which was fun because that wasn’t in my initial playthrough. (0:38:47) Al: Yeah. (0:38:49) Al: Yeah. (0:38:50) Al: I’m not sure. (0:38:51) Kelly: So that was really fun to go out. (0:38:54) Kelly: I feel like that really opened up a whole new part of the game and like extended it nicely. (0:38:57) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:39:06) Al: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, that’s what he’s doing, right? Like, just keep playing this game, please. (0:39:09) Kelly: Yeah. But I mean, he does it in such a good way. Like people would play this game even if he didn’t go out there and release, you know, updates to it. People would be replaying it it constantly anyway yep (0:39:12) Al: Here’s more stuff. I know. (0:39:21) Al: and people would pay for the updates and he just gives them out for free. (0:39:24) Kelly: yep what a good guy yes yes but I mean we might have talked about a game a few minutes ago that might have been doing a different thing no but I fully agree with your point you know it’s like (0:39:26) Al: I mean, he is a millionaire, so you know, like it’s easier to be a good guy when you’re a millionaire. But yes, it is. (0:39:38) Al: Absolutely. No, I don’t. Yep, I don’t. I’m not disagreeing with you. I’m not not trying to take it away from him. You’re absolutely right. (0:39:51) Al: I haven’t played the 1.5 stuff with Ginger Island and stuff like that. So I need to, (0:39:54) Kelly: Oh really? Okay. (0:39:56) Kelly: That might be the best, because especially it seems like he is adding quite a few things, so why not wait? (0:39:57) Al: it’s on my list of like, I really need to do this. So I’m trying to decide maybe I just wait for 1.6 to come out and do it all at the same time. (0:40:06) Al: Yeah, yeah, and I’m going to have to cover that. (0:40:11) Kelly: I will say there is one thing in Ginger Island, there’s like one thing that you really have to like hope for the luck of finding. (0:40:20) Kelly: So that can be a little frustrating, but I think if you kind of… (0:40:24) Kelly: I think the issue is more so when you don’t leave enough stuff to do at home to. (0:40:29) Kelly: And you kind of save Ginger Island for the very end and then you’re like, “Ugh, where is this thing? Come on, show me your…” (0:40:36) Kelly: Like, because it’s like one of those things where you can only collect a few things a day of it. (0:40:39) Kelly: Oh, I always do a new save. (0:40:39) Al: And then I need to make the decision of do I do a new save or do I continue my existing save. (0:40:45) Kelly: I know I should probably go back, but I love a restart. (0:40:49) Kelly: Like, I’ve got like five different room worlds because I just like… (0:40:52) Al: So mostly I have like one that I have done most of the things in, and then I have like a bunch of others that are like random challenges and a random multiplayer one. (0:40:52) Kelly: Could I go back and keep– (0:40:54) Kelly: I’m playing them sure. (0:41:12) Al: See I’m the opposite, I’m like I really should do a new one and see how it changes things because obviously it’s not. You don’t expedite. I need to do both realistically, right? Because it changes things. Exactly. Yeah. (0:41:16) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:41:18) Kelly: It’s like you get to see how you strategize and how you handle things differently and like, you know Going back in with like new knowledge and like all that stuff Like like this this the one I did two years ago, I have notes I take notes when I play this game So I have like field guides I’m like, you know the best things to do with this and each season and what you should pickle and what you should Kagan like blah blah blah like what Fisher what’s Oh Yeah Oh, no, I I love a (0:41:32) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:41:46) Al: Yeah, yeah. Oh, see, I don’t pickle and keg because I just can’t be bothered. I just go, (0:41:54) Al: what is the most expensive crop? Like the most for selling. And I just go with that. (0:41:59) Al: Like, I’m just like, I do like mayo and cheese and stuff like that. But I’m like, I don’t, (0:42:04) Al: I can’t be bothered with like putting my crops and these other things and waiting. No, I just sell. Like, I know you can make more money, but I don’t, I don’t want to do that. (0:42:12) Kelly: I love a good micromanage. It’s not even about the money because I’m a third point I don’t need more money. It’s literally just about me having tasks to do. But yeah, no, I’m like, I… At certain points I was like, okay, so if I place this many kegs in the basement, can I still access them if I walk around this way? (0:42:31) Al: Yes, what’s the optimum strategy? I think the problem is that they figured it out. There is a right answer to that in everything. (0:42:43) Kelly: Yes, which I don’t, I don’t want to sound like I’m one of those people who are doing things to the T perfect, like gotta have every second count. (0:42:54) Kelly: Like I definitely do things in my own little stupid way. (0:42:58) Al: Yeah. Yeah. I also quite like trying different things. So there was one quite early on with the podcast where me and Rachelle were trying to see how much money we could make just from mining. It was good fun. It was good fun. Yeah. Yeah. (0:42:59) Kelly: But there are certain things that I try to make sure I’m doing them correctly, I quote unquote correctly. (0:43:07) Kelly: So that I can get money and stuff from them, especially early game. (0:43:10) Kelly: Once you get to a certain point, it’s like, oh my God, do I need money? (0:43:20) Kelly: that’s a that’s a fun challenge I think those are like fun ways to like how can I do this how can I do this differently oh yeah like I’m a I’m I do this in every like game essentially but I love fishing for So I’m always like a sucker for that, but I feel like (0:43:28) Al: Yeah, exactly. And it’s like, you can actually make a lot of money that way. (0:43:32) Al: And it’s just fun to try the different ways of doing that because (0:43:50) Kelly: My last one I tried to like avoid that more so but It’s always fun to just try different ways do different things (0:43:54) Al: Fair enough. (0:43:56) Al: I also saw someone do a challenge which was like you can’t leave the farm and that was quite interesting. (0:44:06) Al: So they didn’t get a lot of seeds is part of the point, right? (0:44:11) Al: So obviously you get them from foraging, you can get seeds just from foraging. (0:44:15) Al: But yeah, a lot of it was just having to like sell the things you find around the farm. (0:44:21) Al: They used the four carner’s farm. (0:44:22) Kelly: No chickens? (0:44:25) Al: They used the four carner’s farm, so you get a little bit of everything. (0:44:29) Kelly: uh okay okay but like no interactions with people unless they like literally come to visit you that’s crazy but I feel like you know that’s like the it’s like nose locking yourself into stardew it’s fun yeah but stardew yay (0:44:35) Al: Yep. Yeah. (0:44:38) Al: Exactly, exactly, exactly. Lots of different ways to do it. (0:44:47) Al: So yeah, wild horseradish juice. (0:44:49) Al: I will probably never make it. (0:44:52) Kelly: I i will say who is drinking this I love horseradish I love spiciness I love (0:44:53) Al: Yeah. But just pure horseradish juice. (0:44:59) Kelly: bloody marys I love burning my sinuses I would never listen there’s been times in my life where my sinuses have been really bad and somebody was like hey if you put apple cider vinegar up your nose it’ll help and i’ve done that this sounds wild I would never do this I have never heard of horseradish as being described as sweet (0:45:05) Al: No! (0:45:10) Al: It’s description is a sweet nutritious beverage. (0:45:23) Al: I think there’s lots of sugar in that. (0:45:25) Kelly: Yeah, it has to be like really pickled or whatever. (0:45:29) Kelly: That’s crazy. (0:45:33) Al: The final news is we have a new game announced. We don’t have a lot about it. It’s called Echoes of the Plum Grove and it is coming to Kickstarter soon and its little tagline is “Build a thriving community across generations in this cosy historical farm simulation”. (0:45:51) Kelly: I think that’s pretty cute, like that’s a different idea because I feel like you know in a lot of these you can have a kid or something or a family but it doesn’t really go anywhere. (0:45:58) Kelly: Like I feel like this is very much so not how I play The Sims but how a lot of people play The Sims where they’ll make generational things and like the generations start to interact with each other and it’s like really interesting, it’s a very long-term way of doing it. (0:46:08) Al: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. A few games have kind of done a little bit of this, like, I think the new Harvest Moon does it where you can grow. You still stay as your same character, though. (0:46:29) Al: But there was… Oh, what was the… A Wonderful Life did this as well, didn’t it? You can play as your child at a certain point, I think. (0:46:39) Al: So yeah, there is apparently a lot more information on Steam that I didn’t notice until now. (0:46:43) Kelly: I did have to go open the Steam page because the Kickstarter basically had nothing on it. (0:46:44) Al: I will link that in the show notes. (0:46:47) Al: Yes, well, that’s the thing, that’s why I didn’t think we had a huge amount, but it is apparently on Steam. (0:46:53) Al: Well, the page is up on Steam, and it says it’s coming out in 2024, but I suspect (0:46:59) Kelly: I would also. I like his little cute like

Kev and Kelly do a second harvest of Graveyard Keeper Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:02:17: What Have We Been Up To 00:06:11: News 00:34:56: Graveyard Keeper 01:14:29: Outro Links Coral Island 1.0 Moonlight in Garland Early Access Sun Haven 1.3 Update Fabledom Fairytales & Community Update Moonstone Island Eerie Items DLC Lonesome Village Physical Edition Garden Story Translation Update Fantastic Haven Graveyard Keeper Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:32) Kevin: this is kelly ween this is kelly ween kelly ween kelly ween and in this show uh we talk about games that are filled with cottage gore yeah hi everyone welcome to the harvest season um with me today is kelly i’m kevin she’s actually gonna be here for well spoilers but then she’s gonna be on next week too she were on last week I bring it up because last year you were on for Halloween we did Cult of the Land. (0:00:47) Kelly: Hey. (0:00:57) Kelly: Oh, I forgot about that. (0:01:02) Kevin: And so, yeah, so, well, that’s exactly right. (0:01:03) Kelly: Is this just like my thing? (0:01:07) Kevin: Um, yeah, you’re Kelly our pumpkin queen. (0:01:10) Kevin: So here we are. (0:01:11) Kevin: Um, she’s all about this stuff. (0:01:14) Kevin: And so we are here today to talk about graveyard keeper, another, um, cottage gore game, um, technically this is a second harvest episode. (0:01:25) Kevin: Uh, Raschelle covered it way back. (0:01:28) Kevin: Like the first Halloween episode. (0:01:32) Kevin: And so I knew about it for years, but I didn’t get a chance to play it until recently. (0:01:37) Kevin: Um, and Kelly has played it significantly. (0:01:40) Kevin: Um, yeah. (0:01:40) Kelly: I only got out of it though last year. I was very new to it, so… (0:01:44) Kevin: Well, still more than I have. (0:01:49) Kevin: I’ve only played, uh, just a handful, relatively speaking. (0:01:51) Kevin: Um, but yeah, that’s, uh, we will get to that soon enough. (0:01:58) Kevin: Um, but before that, as always. (0:02:02) Kevin: Show notes and links and the transcripts are all available on the website for people to see and look at and on. (0:02:09) Kevin: Ooh, and whatnot. (0:02:11) Kevin: Um, and, uh, before the graveyard keeper will do news as always. (0:02:17) Kevin: And more importantly, what have you been up to Kelly? (0:02:19) Kevin: What have you been playing, watching, doing, yada, yada. (0:02:21) Kelly: Um, playing? I’ve really been slacking. I’ve been playing solitaire in Pokemon Go, which is not… It is, but I just… I get stuck playing it, and like, it’s fun, but I’m also like, I could be playing something better. (0:02:37) Kevin: Yeah, I mean it’s like comfort food sometimes it just it’s simple and I get it Exactly sometimes you just need a mindless game Okay, okay madman okay, I have not watched it. I’m familiar with it. That’s the one with That’s the one like 50s (0:02:37) Kelly: Um… [laughs] (0:02:39) Kelly: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It’s like, thoughtless. Um… (0:02:50) Kelly: But I just… (0:02:51) Kelly: I rewatched Mad Men, so that I think is more exciting. (0:03:05) Kelly: yeah like 60s advertising, yeah. (0:03:05) Kevin: add agency right (0:03:07) Kevin: 60s okay all right how how mm-hmm how long is it like the whole thing oh wow that’s longer than expected well that’s cool yeah sure (0:03:07) Kelly: uh I was a big fan when it came out. (0:03:12) Kelly: uh it’s like seven seasons I think? yeah seven seasons. (0:03:18) Kelly: yeah when I first ran I jumped ship like I think after season five. (0:03:25) Kelly: uh I mean it’s not the worst last two seasons but they’re not as good. (0:03:32) Kelly: Good. (0:03:34) Kevin: Um, let’s see, uh, well, I’ve last week we covered paleo pines actually kept up with it a good bit after There was a patch that dropped It’s been a big dinosaur for a week for me. I watched Jurassic Park this week again - (0:03:35) Kelly: What about you? What have you been up to? (0:03:52) Kevin: Boy, that movie’s real good good other than that Yesterday I cried that Super Mario wonder it just came out yesterday (0:04:04) Kevin: the newest one for this switch and It’s a good one Um, I’ll plug the rainbow road radio the other show I do with our mutual friend Alex We did our first look at it on that show. We just recorded and that’ll be dropping soon It’s fantastic it’s There’s I’m only a little bit in like on the second world but like every (0:04:23) Kelly: What do you think of it? (0:04:34) Kevin: level feels like it is introducing something new and different and I mean classic Mario is good you know 2d it’s your standard 2d Mario and whatnot so the gameplay is good and it’s just filled with all sorts of fun surprises and delights I’m going to spoil people on probably the best part that I’ve experienced so far there’s this level it’s like the second or third level you can do. (0:05:04) Kevin: There’s a bunch of piranha plants popping out of the pipes and you run and jump past them and whatnot. (0:05:09) Kevin: And then there’s the Wonder Flower which changes the level in different ways or whatnot. (0:05:15) Kevin: So when you touch the Wonder Flower, it starts this musical production and all the piranha plants just start singing. (0:05:23) Kevin: And it’s incredible, you entice everyone to at least look it up. (0:05:29) Kelly: I actually, I saw it on TikTok this morning and I was like, hmm, okay. (0:05:30) Kevin: It’s just so much fun. (0:05:34) Kevin: It’s so, because it just, right? (0:05:37) Kelly: Very much unexpected. (0:05:38) Kelly: I thought it was like somebody made it at first, like, you know, somebody edited it. (0:05:41) Kevin: Yep, it’s so out of the blue. (0:05:42) Kelly: But no, it was real. (0:05:45) Kevin: Yeah, no, it’s good. (0:05:48) Kevin: It’s really funny and yeah, the game just brings smiles to me every level with all sorts of unexpected twists and turns like that. (0:05:56) Kevin: So yeah, Mario Wonder, two thumbs up for me for sure. (0:05:59) Kevin: Like I said, people can go to Rainbow World Radio to hear more in-depth thoughts. (0:06:04) Kevin: But, yeah, that’s mostly what I’ve been up to. (0:06:08) Kevin: And now, with that, let’s hop on over to the news. (0:06:15) Kevin: We have, as always, a handful of, mostly game updates. (0:06:19) Kevin: Yeah, there’s a lot of game updates for some reason right now. (0:06:24) Kevin: So we’re going to start off talking about Coral Island. (0:06:30) Kevin: Okay, the one, okay, this is a big one. (0:06:34) Kevin: For people who may not remember, Coral Island is your standard Stardew-esque, well, I say standard. (0:06:40) Kevin: It’s got all your fixings, your farming, and it’s on an island, hence the name, right? (0:06:46) Kevin: So it has the tropical aesthetic and whatnot. (0:06:51) Kevin: But the big news is the 1.0 version is launching on November 14th, which is exciting. (0:06:58) Kevin: They have a trailer, and it looks expansive. (0:07:05) Kevin: There’s a lot going on. You have your farm, you can go underwater, you can meet mermaids, you can do your romancing, (0:07:12) Kevin: you can do, I think there’s even a race in there somewhere. All that good stuff. (0:07:18) Kevin: It looks very polished and like a 1.0 game. You can also… (0:07:22) Kelly: Yeah, I was going to say, it definitely looks like there’s, it looks a lot different than like the first, you know, clips I saw of it. (0:07:30) Kevin: Yep, absolutely. Yeah, it’s definitely a game now, for a better way of putting it. (0:07:36) Kelly: Yeah. (0:07:37) Kevin: And you can also dress up as a panda or dinosaur, so you know, there’s a lot going on there. You also get your little animal crossing, you can redecorate your house wherever you want. (0:07:49) Kevin: Oh, you can even have a baby in this, that’s wild. Yeah, that is dropping on November 14th, (0:07:58) Kevin: just a couple of weeks and it will be dropping on Steam, Xbox Series X/S, and PS5 they’re hoping for a 2024 release for a Switch version. Do you think you’ll try Coral Island or look in its general (0:08:12) Kelly: I think I might. I think it definitely looks really cute. I think it depends on if I’m playing anything, you know, when it comes out. I’m trying so hard not to, like, backlog myself. (0:08:22) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, that’s the hard part right too many games Yeah, no, that’s that’s a good idea I definitely have bought back So I respect that I think you can romance a mermaid so, you know, I’m not that going free I wonder how that’s gonna work. How are they gonna move up the land or vice versa? (0:08:43) Kevin: It’s a two-story floor but the bottom floor is underwater [laugh] (0:08:44) Kelly: just uh living in a two separate homes kind of situation there you go (0:08:52) Kevin: I’m down for that, um, yeah, right now it’s only 25 bucks, oh that’s not bad for this, that’s, that looks like a lot of content for 25 bucks, so, um, get excited. (0:09:06) Kevin: Um, oh, oh yeah, okay, sure, yep, that makes sense, that’s fair. (0:09:07) Kelly: Oh, it does say it’s going to release, I think, at $30, though. (0:09:11) Kelly: There’s a note about the price adjustment. (0:09:14) Kelly: But the diving looks really cool. (0:09:16) Kelly: I played a lot of Dave the Diver over the summer, (0:09:19) Kelly: so I feel like I’m still looking for games where I can go exploring like that. (0:09:19) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s good. (0:09:23) Kevin: Yeah, it does look good for like the animation stuff. (0:09:29) Kevin: I’m also a big fan of underwater type games and it looks very expansive down there. (0:09:35) Kevin: So yeah, there’s a post on Steam page with all the updates and everything. You guys can check it out. (0:09:44) Kevin: If you do have early access, it looks like there will be a save reset. (0:09:53) Kevin: So there is that. But, either way, November 14th, I look forward to it. I might actually check it out now. It looks pretty… (0:10:00) Kevin: So, next up we have Moonlight and Garland. (0:10:06) Kevin: I don’t know if this is a game announced, but it’s… (0:10:09) Kevin: Yeah, I guess it is, because they’re announcing their early access October 24th, which will probably already be out by the time people are listening to this. (0:10:18) Kevin: This is… here, let me read their, uh… (0:10:22) Kevin: The elevator pitch, where is it? (0:10:24) Kevin: A cozy open-ended life sim about finding your feet in the big city, decorate your apartment, make new friends, grow too many houseplants, and love your city life. (0:10:33) Kevin: Um, so it… yeah, it’s… it’s city-based, right? So you’re in an apartment, you’re not running a whole farm, but you can grow plants, you can have pets, um, make relationships and whatnot. (0:10:46) Kevin: The art style is… (0:10:48) Kelly: That’s the most realistic farming sim. (0:10:52) Kevin: » [LAUGH] (0:10:54) Kevin: » No, you’re right. (0:10:59) Kevin: » Yeah, yeah, Kelly can. (0:11:00) Kevin: Well, no, you’re in the house now, you’re not in an apartment anymore. (0:11:03) Kelly: No, but definitely, you know, went through that also, like, how do I keep my plans alive in my apartment when there’s no sun? (0:11:04) Kevin: But yeah, you know the feeling. (0:11:12) Kevin: Man, gosh, you’re super right. (0:11:16) Kevin: Boy, there’s a person showing an apartment with a lot of bunnies in their apartment, that seems difficult. (0:11:23) Kevin: You’re gonna have that many bunnies in an apartment. (0:11:26) Kevin: The art style is, it’s 2D pixelated, but it’s not Stardew-esque. (0:11:31) Kevin: It’s a little more cutesy than that, and I don’t know how to best describe it. (0:11:35) Kevin: And all the NPCs are kind of bobbing their head at the same time to some unknown beat, it is cute looking. (0:11:43) Kevin: And it’s only the early access, so I’m sure it’ll grow considerably more. (0:11:51) Kevin: That is, you know. (0:11:52) Kevin: October 23rd? 24th? I’m seeing two different days. (0:11:58) Kelly: I definitely want to follow up on it because just looking at the coming soon photo, it’s like why is there an iguana on the sidewalk? (0:12:06) Kevin: Hahaha! (0:12:06) Kelly: Can I have an iguana? (0:12:07) Kevin: Wait, you havin’ a guana? (0:12:08) Kelly: And then there’s also the bear man. (0:12:10) Kevin: Wait, wait, wait, wait, let me see, which one are you talkin’ about? (0:12:10) Kelly: I’m on the steam page, the early access release. (0:12:14) Kevin: What? (0:12:15) Kevin: Okay, okay, let me see… (0:12:17) Kelly: So in the coming soon photo that says steam early access, October 24th, whatever, wishlist now. (0:12:27) Kevin: Okay, okay. Oh, I’m looking at the wrong page. I would explain it wouldn’t it? Yup. There it is. Okay Yeah, I was looking the wrong page. There is a bear man. Why is there a bear man? (0:12:28) Kelly: There’s a bear man in the iguana, like do I get a pet iguana, do I get pet pigeons? (0:12:37) Kevin: Okay, I Okay, I want to mine a department full of pet iguanas that that I can do they’re pretty low-key There are pigeons. So, you know, definitely, you know, they’re hitting Oh, are they gonna have the the trash bags out on the sidewalk? (0:12:55) Kevin: Are they gonna go all in on the city? (0:12:57) Kevin: I don’t know if garland is a city name. It’s a city in texas. I know that much. (0:13:11) Kelly: Yeah. (laughs) (0:13:28) Kevin: But yeah, coming soon, early access. (0:13:31) Kevin: Next up, the clip side of early access, we got DLC patches, whatever you want to call it, for Sunhaven. (0:13:39) Kevin: This is the magical-esque farm where you do magic, there’s monsters, dragons, etc. (0:13:51) Kevin: It is patch 1.3, which includes new buildings. (0:13:58) Kevin: There are several that don’t look human, one is an angel, just straight up an angel. (0:14:04) Kevin: One guy is blue, he’s a moon attendant, whatever that means. (0:14:11) Kevin: You have to, they will be unlockable at some point, but that’s fascinating, dating non-humans like that. (0:14:20) Kevin: Oh, they will have a couple of other romancibles coming later this year. (0:14:28) Kevin: They will also have new farm structures and buildings. (0:14:32) Kevin: Greenhouses, silos, chicken coops, butterfly gardens, I like that. You don’t see that in farming games. (0:14:38) Kelly: That’s very unique, yeah. (0:14:40) Kevin: That’s cute, I love a butterfly garden. (0:14:44) Kevin: Monocyphoners, glorite siphoners, I don’t know what they are, workshops, and ticket counterfeiters. (0:14:54) Kevin: I don’t know what that means, but you’re counterfeiting. (0:14:57) Kevin: They’re up to crimes. I like that. (0:14:59) Kevin: I want to know why you can do crimes. (0:15:01) Kevin: Tickets for what? (0:15:03) Kevin: I don’t think they’re concert tickets. (0:15:05) Kevin: That’s fascinating. (0:15:07) Kevin: But yeah, there’s a whole bunch of other stuff. (0:15:10) Kelly: A lot of stuff. There’s like a ghost shed kit? I want a ghost shed. (0:15:11) Kevin: What does that mean? (0:15:18) Kevin: Do you keep ghosts in there? (0:15:19) Kelly: You grow them in there, maybe? (0:15:21) Kevin: I don’t… (0:15:23) Kevin: Oh wait, there are variations. (0:15:25) Kevin: variations because there’s pumpkin and mushroom. (0:15:27) Kevin: It looks like a ghost, oh I see it. (0:15:29) Kevin: Yeah, it has the eyes, the windows look like eyes and the glow, okay. (0:15:29) Kelly: Oh! (0:15:31) Kelly: That makes so much more sense because I was like oh mushroom shed. That’s just a shed where you grow mushrooms, you know That’s and then I just took the rest of them like that [laughs] (0:15:33) Kevin: Um, sh*t skins, yeah it does. (0:15:36) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, okay. (0:15:44) Kevin: Um, oh that’s the butterfly, wow those are big butterflies. (0:15:47) Kevin: Um, oh those are fascinating buildings. (0:15:49) Kevin: Um, let’s see, player birthdays. (0:15:53) Kevin: There is the birthday, birthday celebration. (0:15:57) Kevin: There is a huge pinata that you can hit, so I’m already down for this. (0:16:01) Kevin: Um, geez that’s like a full sized lion looking pinata, that’s great. (0:16:06) Kevin: Um, that’s uh, so all that’s included in the patch. (0:16:10) Kevin: Aside from that there will be DLC available. (0:16:13) Kevin: Um, all six different packs, trick or treat, spirit battle, rock and roll, cyber pop, monkey monkey, and dreamy ram. (0:16:22) Kevin: They’re all, they contain different items, packs, outfits, items, whatever. (0:16:27) Kevin: You guys can check the Steam page for details. (0:16:30) Kevin: Uh, for, yeah, there’s more details out there than we talked about, but, uh, yeah, that seems like a hefty patch. That seems like fun. (0:16:38) Kelly: Yeah, there’s a lot in this. This page goes on. (0:16:38) Kevin: Um, uh, yeah, it does. Um… (0:16:41) Kelly: And there’s even a coming soon, so… (0:16:43) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, they’re talking about future. (0:16:47) Kevin: Um, wow, new season of weather. Wow. (0:16:50) Kevin: Gloomy, what’s the difference between rainy and gloomy rain? I don’t know. (0:16:55) Kelly: Um, I think there’s I could I could understand that one (0:16:55) Kevin: But there you go All right, yeah, I guess. Okay, uh See like out here in Georgia. It’s a little more like rain. Not gloomy rain. Gloomy rains like hurricane force rain That’s what I think Wait no, yeah, okay. I get it (0:17:10) Kelly: No, I think gloomy rain is like when it’s kind of cold and like the sky is just dark and grey all day and it’s like just kind of constant. Like you could have nice rain, like you could have sunny rain, you could have like… (0:17:24) Kevin: Yeah, I do enjoy sun showers. (0:17:25) Kelly: It doesn’t have to be gloomy. (0:17:26) Kelly: Just like a normal rain shower isn’t always gloomy. (0:17:27) Kevin: You’re right. (0:17:28) Kevin: Yeah, no, you’re right, okay, um Yeah, so there’s all the whole bunch of stuff you guys can check that out Is that sorry? Yeah, when’s the release? I didn’t it’s it’s Oct they posted it October 20th It is oh, yeah, it’s already out on Steam. Yeah, so Now time this recording which means by the times you guys are listening. It is definitely available. That is again Sun haven (0:17:58) Kevin: Huh? Oh man, I’m just looking at the picture like a big tree man monster. I might have to check this out I like tree monsters. I I haven’t played a magic game in a minute. Well, I mean, well, maybe our keeper gentle notwithstanding Um, but it’s high, you know fantasy magic II I’m down for that. I could use that Yeah, uh, okay speaking of well, I don’t know more updates (0:18:04) Kelly: right? like i’m kind of like- i’m intrigued. i’m definitely very (0:18:17) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:18:18) Kelly: I feel like this is pretty different, yeah. (0:18:28) Kevin: We have so this is The what I refer to as not a city builder but a village builder because it’s medieval villagey themed But you’re helping build the whole village and run everything it is currently in early access and they are dropping a update for it I’m excited for this game myself. I’m gonna wait for the 1.0, but I love the art style. It’s cutesy and goofy (0:18:59) Kevin: and they are dropping all sorts of things in this update including a An encounter with a misunderstood Cyclops who’s very cute. His eye is just a dot His name is Eric one eye you can there will be a witch’s hut a red hooded girl Who’s looking for her grandma’s house? That that’s a speech. I don’t trust that at all. Oh, no, I don’t like that Hemisary gnomes (0:19:26) Kevin: It was seriously rare! (0:19:28) Kevin: And then a fawn with a really big nose and mustache. Oh, I like this guy. (0:19:33) Kevin: There’s a… and a few more. (0:19:36) Kevin: Well, those are fun characters that they’re adding. I love the art style and it looks really fun on these mythical, magical, whatever you want to call them. (0:19:46) Kevin: Cyclops and fawns. Gnomes. They’re fun looking characters. (0:19:48) Kelly: No, yeah, they look they look so cute. It looks very adorable (0:19:49) Kevin: Yeah. (0:19:51) Kevin: Yep. (0:19:53) Kevin: There are, oh gosh, 50 new world events and 30 new objectives. (0:19:58) Kevin: I don’t know what that means, but those are big numbers. (0:20:00) Kevin: Oh, there’s a magic bean. (0:20:03) Kevin: There’s monthly and yearly objectives. (0:20:06) Kevin: Hot weight. Positive and negative events. Oh, oh, they’re, they’re, they’re wild. Okay, I’m down for that. (0:20:15) Kevin: They have, let’s see, new buildings, a laborer guild. Oh, so you can hire better laborers. That’s fun. A bank. (0:20:24) Kevin: Oh, you can tax your villagers at different rates? (0:20:28) Kevin: Oh, that’s awesome. Grand theater? Oh, that’s a nice looking theater. (0:20:34) Kevin: Fisherman’s hut? Fish up stuff? All sorts of quality of life stuff? (0:20:40) Kevin: Well, there’s a lot of graphs in this game and things like that. I’m down for that. (0:20:45) Kevin: Yeah, that’s a lot of stuff coming. Like I said, I’m probably going to wait for 1.0 myself, but I’m glad that it’s coming along nicely. Yeah, that is again fabled. (0:20:57) Kelly: Is there any, is there any real estate or? (0:20:59) Kevin: Go. Oh, it is live. That update is already live as of this recording. (0:21:05) Kevin: So, yay. If anyone is playing the one point or the early access, first of all, (0:21:10) Kevin: somebody tell me if they are because I want to know about it. And it is out already. (0:21:15) Kevin: Um, yeah. All right. Good. Oh man. I’m just trying to fable them. It’s so goofy looking and the. (0:21:23) Kelly: Is there like an overall release date or no? (0:21:33) Kevin: uh not that i’m saying now um I have left here a quick glance um yeah so probably still a hot minute probably sometime in 2024 i’d hope but uh it’s not dead yet so i’ll take that let’s see next up we have uh moonstone island we have dlc for that this is which one’s this one okay all right we so we have dlc come (0:22:11) Kevin: Well, let me get to the details. Yeah, it’s the Halloween update right? That’s the key thing here. Um, (0:22:16) Kelly: I think so, ‘cause it’s for Halloween. (0:22:17) Kevin: We’ve got just a whole bunch of Spooky decors per their website gravestones skeletons a big old pumpkin house um Web’s five types of cobwebs. Oh Oh a rug. That’s just the tongue. That’s clever. I like that. Um, (0:22:38) Kevin: uh So yeah, there. (0:22:41) Kevin: Okay. (0:22:43) Kevin: Okay. (0:22:45) Kelly: I’m sorry, it’s actually not out yet. (0:22:45) Kevin: Okay. (0:22:47) Kelly: It’s not out, which I’m kinda… (0:22:47) Kevin: Um, there are n- some- the- so some of this stuff is DLC, which I’m assuming means purchasable separately, but there will be stuff included for free in the updates on the skeletons and things like that. (0:22:58) Kevin: Um, spirits are free- I don’t know what spirits are in the context of this game, but um, but they’re coming some out. (0:23:05) Kevin: Um, oh wow, I didn’t check- it’s got some good reviews. (0:23:09) Kevin: Um, I’ll have to check that out. (0:23:11) Kevin: Oh wow, what? Oh gosh, I forgot about- I’m remembering the game. (0:23:15) Kevin: There’s- you can fight like robots with a card battling system. (0:23:19) Kevin: They are… (0:23:21) Kevin: Yeah, oh man, oh gosh. (0:23:23) Kelly: These are really cute looking things, these creatures. (0:23:26) Kelly: I, yeah, like, I really like the style of it, yeah. (0:23:26) Kevin: This whole episode’s just me getting excited about games I forgot to get excited about. (0:23:31) Kevin: Um, as if I didn’t have enough already. (0:23:33) Kevin: There are really cute characters- there’s a fishbowl with legs. (0:23:36) Kevin: Um, I like that. (0:23:39) Kevin: that. And then at the end they just. (0:23:41) Kevin: Have a picture of a cat with like a sun hood. I don’t know but um, it’s very cute cat. (0:23:47) Kevin: That is Moonstone Island. That is already out, I believe. Why do we have a date for that? (0:23:52) Kelly: It is a very cute cat. (0:23:54) Kelly: The game is out, it says “NA” for them. (0:23:56) Kevin: Okay, thank you. But it says, while says it’s October 27th. I (0:24:06) Kevin: Couldn’t find that myself. Oh wait. Yeah, there it is. Yeah, October 27th. It’s only $4. (0:24:11) Kevin: Okay, that’s actually not bad at all and 10% off the first week. So there’s 46. (0:24:18) Kevin: Yeah, okay. Oh, it’s a new spirits must be a little monster buddies. That’s what it means. I’m excited. One looks like an apple with a worm through it. They’re just showing silhouettes. I’m just guessing. (0:24:23) Kelly: There you go. (0:24:29) Kevin: And yeah, I don’t know all that. Oh, I might check this out now. It’s a very cute game. (0:24:34) Kevin: Moonstone Island. Um Let’s see Next up we have oh, this isn’t an interesting (0:24:41) Kevin: one because boy, I never thought we’d see this this is Lonesome Village game that I notoriously advocate because the developers are from Mexico. It’s got the cute coyote as you saw puzzles in a tower. They’re coming out the fiscal edition. Pre-orders are live. You can check the show notes for the link. It is not from limited run games actually. A game a site called premium edition games. (0:25:11) Kevin: physical edition which includes all sorts of goodies including oh wow a full-color manual oh that’s exciting Wow a dog tag yeah they do um oh man a manual that’s exciting um yeah it’s great um yeah I I cover this game with Johnny, it was last year or year before, I don’t remember. (0:25:22) Kelly: Dude, the indie games always put so much into like what you get from… (0:25:32) Kelly: I love a manual. (0:25:33) Kelly: A full color manual too, that’s so nice. (0:25:41) Kevin: It’s a fun little game with lots of puzzles, and just very very cute little animal-closing-esque villagers. (0:25:47) Kelly: It looks really cute. The art style kind of reminds me of like Cult of the Lamb, but without the like paper feel. (0:25:47) Kevin: It’s actually funny because in the “story” of the game, so it’s called Lonesome Village because there’s a village and everyone’s kind of been turned to stone or disappeared. (0:26:03) Kevin: And the villains, they’re the people who did it very much look like Cult of the Lamb. (0:26:06) Kelly: Okay. (0:26:07) Kelly: Oh! Oh! It’s a cult! It’s a cult! What is happening here? (0:26:09) Kevin: Yeah. (0:26:12) Kevin: It came out around the time Cult of the Loom. (0:26:14) Kelly: I’m watching the trailer! Oh my god! (0:26:15) Kevin: It looks a lot like Cult of the Loom. (0:26:18) Kevin: The cult from Cult of the Loom. (0:26:20) Kevin: I think we made the joke in the episode. (0:26:22) Kevin: It came out around the same time too. (0:26:25) Kevin: Yep, yep, exactly. Yep. (0:26:26) Kelly: That’s so funny, ‘cause I was thinking it kinda like reminds me of the way they do the animals, like the style of the animals. (0:26:32) Kelly: But now that I’m watching this trailer, it’s like literally… (0:26:32) Kevin: It’s cult, it’s a lot like Cult of the Loom, Cult. (0:26:36) Kelly: That’s so funny. Oh, I gotta play this. (0:26:41) Kevin: Yeah, I have to check it out again. I still have it. (0:26:45) Kevin: It’s been a while. I’m sure they patched it up and done some stuff. (0:26:48) Kevin: ‘Cause I had a few rough edges back then, but I’m curious. (0:26:51) Kevin: I might do another look at it at some point. (0:26:54) Kevin: Because, yeah, props to–but, again, Mexican dev team, so I gotta shout them out. (0:26:59) Kevin: Ogre Pixel, that’s the name. (0:27:02) Kevin: But, yeah, that is a cute little logo of an Ogre–Pixillator Ogre. (0:27:07) Kevin: And again, this is the physical edition release. (0:27:11) Kevin: $40 for the premium edition, which seems to be their only version but includes all sorts of goodies. Um, I When do pre-orders end? I don’t know if I see that but the pre-orders are available now So you can check out the site and get it. Um Alright next up we have Not Garden Galaxy is perfect. We’re heading on the notes. That’s a different game that I was going to cover almost (0:27:42) Kevin: Garden story. That’s the one with the playable grape. That looks a lot like Stardew Valley a lot like It has It’s very cute though the grape that’s playable It is an update that has 11 new languages. Wow, that is a lot of languages I don’t know which ones they are. I just see the It’s out on Steam and switch already this update (0:28:09) Kevin: Very cool. Yeah, I actually don’t know what language is. I don’t know. (0:28:11) Kevin: Let’s see the details. But wow, that’s a big number. Good for them. (0:28:16) Kevin: Always props for making it more available for more people and whatnot. (0:28:19) Kevin: Yep. It is. The grape is very cute. (0:28:20) Kelly: Yeah, that’s always awesome. It really does look like stardew though. It’s cute though (0:28:25) Kevin: Next up, a new game announcement for as far as I can tell. (0:28:31) Kevin: This is called Fantastic Haven, which actually I find really intriguing. (0:28:36) Kevin: It’s the prime… (0:28:40) Kevin: Let me read the– (0:28:41) Kevin: The elevator pitch. (0:28:43) Kevin: So, this is a… (0:28:57) Kevin: Yeah, a Zook cheaper-esque type game, but they’re all magical creatures. (0:29:03) Kevin: Um, so you’re building big pens that look like circular homes more? (0:29:09) Kevin: Um, you alter the land and… (0:29:11) Kevin: It’s full 3D graphics, um, the… I think the actual designs of the creatures are actually quite nice, um… (0:29:18) Kevin: I like animals and critters and… (0:29:21) Kevin: …cheaping them and whatnot, so I’m already pretty interested, um, especially with the spin of… (0:29:26) Kevin: …like, they’re all magical creatures, I don’t see any other animals in here, I see like a griffin, uh… (0:29:31) Kelly: No, I’ve only seen, like, yeah, griffins and some weird frog with, like, horns and stuff. (0:29:31) Kevin: Yup, it’s a bullfrog, you get it? (0:29:36) Kelly: Ah, yes, yes, yes. (0:29:41) Kevin: The color shows a lot more, uh, it looks like you’re even busting some out of, like, cages and, like, carny… (0:29:46) Kevin: …you know, those carnival cages with the wheels, the cars, um… (0:29:51) Kevin: So that’s… that looks very fun, yeah, like I said, a lot of menus, probably, um… (0:29:57) Kevin: …very zookeeper tycoon-esque, um, but with the heavy, uh, magical fantasy paint over it, um… (0:30:06) Kevin: So that is right now the only release date planned is for Q2 of 2024 so it’ll probably be a minute but look forward to it I certainly am those are some fun designs yeah it’s it’s it’s charming enough for me I’m definitely interested um and then lastly okay this one I want to talk about in depth a little more because this one’s affecting me personally uh well actually there’s two me and my neck was night market once again got another patch that one. (0:30:41) Kevin: one point two point one oh whatever the it’s out on switch so you know it’s out on the steam version or whatever um so uh there’s a lot of quality of life stuff you can do with it. (0:30:48) Kevin: I’m not gonna go into the details because I don’t remember them but the other one I want to talk about because we just talked about last week is paleo pines. (0:30:53) Kevin: We just got yup okay so uh one point two point one oh whatever the it’s out on switch so you know it’s out on the steam version or whatever um so uh there’s a lot of quality of life stuff you can do with it. (0:30:54) Kelly: Which I still have to play, but I have not yet. (0:31:11) Kevin: We can change how quickly time passes in the game um oh gosh so one of the after I recorded last week with Spencer and we talked and played I was getting a lot of crashes. (0:31:23) Kevin: They had released a patch previously to fix some of that they said it was like a memory issue um but they were still experiencing it. (0:31:26) Kelly: Mmm. Okay. (0:31:31) Kevin: I felt like the more farther I got in the game the more I was crashed getting crashes uh they addressed some of that. (0:31:37) Kevin: that the game is still not free of crashes because (0:31:41) Kevin: we’ve been probably within an hour after downloading the update the game crashed on me again But it is better in general So they’re definitely aware and working on it at probably top of their list There is Also, there’s a whole list and you can check the show notes for them. I’m trying to look at which ones that are Stand out to me. Oh, there’s a cooking pot (0:31:46) Kelly: Oh, God. (0:32:07) Kevin: But it was weird because it was at some other guy’s house you have to go all the way to this other (0:32:12) Kevin: cook stuff but now you can buy one for your own ranch so that’s great oh here’s a fun one um so you can ride your dinosaurs because of course you can but the thing was whenever you got off of them they would just run away from you at max speed it was whole it was wild you could like try to stop them but um clearly not intended they have addressed that and and this definitely was an update needed and and it works um they will no longer run away from you when you get off of them (0:32:42) Kevin: um yes well luckily I think it was only in the ranch like your home base when it happened they wouldn’t leave you when you’re out in the wild oh my god that would be the worst yes but it’s still a pain because your character is a lot slower than the dinosaur so yeah yeah it’s just a pain having to go across the ranch to find them I mean it’s a pretty big ranch too um (0:32:44) Kelly: feeling it’s like okay nice I can I can get to the place I’m going to but once you’re there you’re stuck there now (0:32:56) Kelly: Oh, okay, okay, I was picturing like you, yeah, like you in the middle of like some field or something. (0:33:12) Kevin: uh there’s all sorts oh horse lock so there was a uh resource called forestwood that was needed for a lot of things it was pretty rare they increased the respawn on that that’s great um they did some ui improvements which were nice uh um lots of other things some oh there was a storage glitch spencer talked about think they fixed that um yeah just sort lots of little things (0:33:42) Kevin: because there were lots of little things that needed fixing um like I said still not 100 percent yeah yeah there is um where is it do they not have it um so there there is I read there is one glitch that they haven’t addressed yet um they know it’s an issue but for some reason at some point and it’s happened to me your game will reset to the first day of the game because there’s you know calendar like most farm. (0:34:12) Kevin: games and whatnot like you’ll keep all your stuff but somehow the calendar will just have reset to the very first game or very first day of the year which is wild um luckily I was able to get around that if you encounter it you can just reload an old save and it’s fine but um that was the wild glitch to see um but yeah that was I’m glad that came out because that addressed a lot of the little nitpicks Spencer and I had with the game and I’m sure (0:34:42) Kevin: they’re still working hard on that so good for you paleopines that update again is out already for switch and probably the other versions whatever versions it’s on all right so that was uh yeah the hearty helping of news and things but that’s now we’re doing that let’s talk about grave graveyard keeper yeah what’s what’s the tagline the most inaccurate medieval simulator isn’t that (0:35:09) Kelly: Something like that. I know inaccurate is involved of [laugh] (0:35:14) Kevin: Hold on let me look at it. Um the most inaccurate cemetery simulation game. Okay. Yeah, I think that’s what it is Okay Well Yeah, so again, um It and this game’s been up for years at this point. Um, I’ll covered it years ago Yeah. Yeah, there you go. That’s cute (0:35:24) Kelly: Oh, the most inaccurate medieval, yeah, cemetery sim of the year. (0:35:36) Kelly: Uh, they had their five year anniversary actually in August. (0:35:42) Kevin: There’s a bunch of DLC I bought the (0:35:44) Kevin: version with all the DLC I don’t know what the base game hazard does not have. (0:35:48) Kevin: I’ve only played it for an afternoon or two. I don’t think I’ve reached any of the DLC portions yet probably. (0:35:49) Kelly: Oh, did you? Okay. (0:35:57) Kevin: They’re all parody names there’s a stranger sins there’s breaking something (0:35:57) Kelly: Um, I’m trying to remember. I know the DLC… (0:35:59) Kelly: Yes, because there’s better save soul. (0:36:04) Kelly: Um, I did look into getting them, but I didn’t- I didn’t, because I think it was like- (0:36:11) Kelly: I feel like there’s- there’s so much going on in this game already. (0:36:14) Kevin: Even if it is, there’s a lot going on. (0:36:14) Kelly: Uh, that I was very happy to not have the added, um, things that like go along with the better save soul one. I heard that gets a lot of pretty tedious. (0:36:24) Kevin: Yeah, heh heh heh. (0:36:25) Kevin: Better save solo, that’s good. (0:36:29) Kevin: I don’t think that one’s out on Switch. (0:36:31) Kevin: That’s it? I don’t know if that one’s out on Switch. (0:36:32) Kelly: Oh, are you playing on Switch? I am not gonna lie. I have not. (0:36:36) Kelly: I’ve been so bad at playing my Switch this year. (0:36:44) Kevin: But, I mean, that’s fine, like, I know that the Switch port gets black for a good reason. (0:36:55) Kevin: There’s a Switch tax for sure, so I don’t blame you. (0:36:57) Kevin: But hey, at least we can compare notes on that. (0:37:00) Kevin: If you played on Steam, I would guess? (0:37:10) Kevin: Um, but okay, so let’s okay, let’s the elevator pitch Okay, first of all, I didn’t expect that this game’s an isekai That I didn’t expect at all so for people unfamiliar with isekai that is a genre of anime primarily where a character wakes up in a simulated often fantasy type world (0:37:38) Kevin: Sword Art Online and just… (0:37:40) Kevin: …other ones. It’s a whole trope now. (0:37:42) Kevin: Umm… (0:37:43) Kelly: I was gonna say it breaks the, you know, inherited your grandpa’s farm trope though. (0:37:44) Kevin: … (0:37:46) Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. (0:37:48) Kevin: You’re just a guy who gets hit by a car cause he’s looking at his phone. (0:37:52) Kevin: Don’t look at your phone when crossing the streets. (0:37:54) Kevin: It’s dark in the rain, people. (0:37:56) Kevin: It’s not recommended. (0:37:58) Kevin: And he wakes… (0:37:59) Kelly: Poor dude’s just trying to give back to his girlfriend or whatever. (0:38:00) Kevin: …yeah, his love, as he says, and… (0:38:03) Kevin: …he wakes up in a graveyard area and… (0:38:08) Kevin: There’s a talking skull that talks to you. (0:38:10) Kevin: And he says, “Hey, welcome. You’re the graveyard keeper, I guess.” (0:38:13) Kevin: Um, more or less, and sure enough, you’re put in charge of this graveyard in this little medieval village area. (0:38:23) Kevin: And you’re trying to figure out how to get back home while managing the graveyard and all the stuff people are asking you. (0:38:32) Kevin: Because, of course, people are going to ask you to do everything around here. (0:38:35) Kevin: Uh… (0:38:36) Kelly: I mean, what would a game be without everybody asking you to do all these things? (0:38:40) Kevin: Right, right. (0:38:42) Kevin: Um, so, okay, hell, you beat the game, correct? What are your overall impressions? (0:38:50) Kelly: I really liked the game. I thought it was a lot of fun. I think there’s a lot of stuff to do, (0:38:57) Kelly: like it can get a bit overwhelming, but I think, you know, it definitely involves, you know, (0:38:59) Kevin: Boy does it. (0:39:01) Kevin: Oh. Yep. (0:39:04) Kelly: looking things up online. But I will say there is an issue with how intuitive it is. (0:39:08) Kevin: Yep. (0:39:10) Kevin: Yep. (0:39:12) Kelly: I think I could have been further along in my gameplay if I understood some of the (0:39:20) Kelly: panics. A lot better. And I will say on that note, it was not always easy to find the answers on the internet. So that made it even worse. And sometimes if you did find an answer, (0:39:21) Kevin: Yep. Okay, so yeah, so. Mm-hmm. (0:39:31) Kevin: Oh yeah, the double whammy, oh yeah. (0:39:35) Kevin: Yup, it’s wild. (0:39:38) Kelly: it was from like 2018, so something got patched or didn’t work like that anymore. (0:39:46) Kelly: So, that was my biggest issue. (0:39:48) Kelly: Did it stop me from putting in, you know, (0:39:50) Kelly: 90 hours, I think, or whatever into the game? (0:39:55) Kelly: No, but there were definitely moments where I was frustrated. (0:39:59) Kelly: Or, like, again, just like, I was playing the game, I was enjoying myself, (0:40:03) Kelly: but I could have been further along than what I was. (0:40:07) Kevin: Yeah, um, okay. Mm-hmm Okay, yeah for sure they’re just Yeah, absolutely. Um, so for comparison I got the game Thursday I think today’s like Saturday. So two days ago So I’ve only played for and Mario wonder so I didn’t play as much yesterday So I played the game for an afternoon and then some um, I like the game a lot. Um, (0:40:07) Kelly: And not even in, like, a micromanagy, like, you know, whatever kind of way. (0:40:13) Kelly: Like, in, like, a… (0:40:15) Kelly: It would have made more sense. (0:40:26) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:40:37) Kevin: I think it is Almost minecrafty and how open it is and crafting and everything But I fully agree like that’s my biggest criticism there’s a lot that is not intuitive Or explained well Yep, yep, yep, I’m sure (0:40:50) Kelly: you haven’t even gotten or opened a lot of the, you know, different aspects of the game yet at this point, I’m sure, because it really expands. It expands a lot. There is a lot to do. There is so (0:41:03) Kevin: But I can imagine… I mean I see the skill tree. (0:41:07) Kevin: So… I can… I can… she’s… I can… (0:41:12) Kevin: So there’s a skill tree in this game, right? You have to get points to unlock your skills. (0:41:18) Kevin: And you can see how far it goes. And yes, I can see there’s a lot to unlock and do and whatnot. (0:41:24) Kevin: But… I think the skill tree is probably where I can direct my first criticism. (0:41:32) Kevin: Because there’s three types of points, whatever you want to call them. (0:41:37) Kevin: Red, green, and blue, and you need different amounts of each for unlocking each new skill, which lets you craft new things or do new things, whatnot. (0:41:46) Kevin: Um, the red and green work hard to get, but the blue, the blue is killing me because I hit a point where I had like one blue point overall and couldn’t figure out how to get more. (0:41:56) Kelly: You run out of them. (0:41:58) Kevin: Yeah. (0:41:59) Kelly: There’s a certain point where the game just stops you from getting more for a bit. (0:42:02) Kevin: Really? Wow. (0:42:04) Kelly: Not like stops you. (0:42:06) Kelly: There’s definitely a roadblock, I would say. (0:42:11) Kevin: - Yeah, okay. (0:42:14) Kelly: I struggled with that for so long. (0:42:17) Kelly: And then, of course, at a certain point, it’s like, oh. (0:42:20) Kelly: Now, actually, you’re out of red. (0:42:23) Kelly: Or now you’re out of green or whatever. (0:42:25) Kelly: And it’s like, oh, something that I– (0:42:26) Kelly: so I think one of them is done from manual labor, red, I think. (0:42:27) Kevin: yep yep your manufacturing and things yeah red okay oh you don’t get read from them (0:42:34) Kelly: Yeah, so at a certain point, you get helper zombies that you can assign to do things. (0:42:42) Kelly: So you’re no longer getting the red from those things that you would be getting red from. (0:42:47) Kelly: So it definitely makes you have to stop and think and watch everything. (0:42:56) Kevin: Yup, absolutely, um, it’s a very resource-manage-y heavy game and that includes your skill points or whatever you want to call them. (0:43:07) Kevin: That’s fascinating. (0:43:09) Kevin: Like I can see the blue are going to be very scarce. (0:43:11) Kelly: But I think it’s interesting because it does… (0:43:13) Kelly: Sorry, I was gonna say it just it does impact, I feel like, (0:43:18) Kelly: what you’re trying to do in that day. Because if you’re trying to get blue points… (0:43:19) Kevin: Right. Yeah, exactly. (0:43:22) Kevin: The nice thing, one of the nicest things about the game, (0:43:26) Kevin: there’s no real pressure. (0:43:28) Kevin: There’s no seasons or years or whatever. (0:43:31) Kevin: There’s a week. (0:43:32) Kevin: So like in six, seven, I don’t remember how long, how many days, (0:43:36) Kevin: but that’s the worst that you have to wait. (0:43:37) Kelly: It’s seven days Which and I liked I like I really like the fact that there was no pressure on the seasons or When you finished the game even or anything like that. I also liked the Each day is a different person You have to make sure that you’re getting the things you need to have done before that day so you can go and deal with that person (0:43:38) Kevin: Yep. Which go by quickly. (0:43:42) Kevin: Yep. (0:43:57) Kevin: Yep. (0:43:57) Kevin: Yep. (0:44:03) Kevin: Yep, he just gotta wait until… (0:44:03) Kelly: Because there’s definitely some weeks where if you miss that person you’re screwed (0:44:07) Kelly: Yup. And there is something later on in the game, you know, when things have slowed down in certain areas and you’re just like waiting for that one day where you can fast forward. (0:44:10) Kevin: Until that point. (0:44:21) Kelly: Yes, but I do actually want to say on that point, I think this is very interesting because there is no pause button. There’s no space yet. (0:44:21) Kevin: Yeah, sure that makes sense. Yeah, you can fast-forward at any point you should go to sleep and (0:44:32) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, even if you’re in your menus, time goes on. (0:44:37) Kelly: Yeah, you have to literally like go to the exit screen or whatever. Like the main menu page. (0:44:41) Kevin: Yeah Yep Yep, so if you’re looking through your notes here You know hemming and hawing at a menu thinking about where you want to spend your points that happened to me just just today When I was playing I cuz I finally got some blue points today. And so I was just like agonizing over I wanted where I wanted to spend them and before when I got out of the menu Oh, it’s evening already. Cool. The whole day’s [laughter] (0:44:43) Kelly: There’s a certain page that stops time, but the rest of them don’t. (0:44:48) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:45:09) Kelly: Yep. (0:45:11) Kelly: Yep. (0:45:12) Kevin: But they’re the kind of I mean, I don’t know if it was their intent or not But the way to combat that it’s very easy to reroll your did your save like you own there’s no autosave It just saves when you go when you wake up So most of the time you can say you’re pretty much have a safe at the start of the date or start of the day, excuse me, and You can just reload to that and have a plan or save yourself (0:45:23) Kelly: Oh, yes. (0:45:25) Kelly: Yes. (0:45:29) Kelly: I would just quit the game. (0:45:32) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:45:40) Kelly: Oh yeah, no, there was many times where I would either just, you would see like the NPC walking away from their post, and I would have to go and reset the game and then do the day over and make sure I got there early enough. (0:45:47) Kevin: Oh my gosh. (0:45:50) Kevin: Yep. (0:45:52) Kevin: Oh my gosh. (0:45:54) Kevin: That happened to me twice already when I go down and Snake is running away and like, “No, I need to talk to you, Snake.” (0:46:02) Kelly: oh god he’s so annoying he’s so annoying for the skill points though I think it’s like kind of fun like there’s some weird ones you can choose from uh-huh (0:46:05) Kevin: He is. (0:46:08) Kevin: He is. (0:46:11) Kevin: Yeah. (0:46:13) Kevin: Overall, I’m a big fan of the Skilled Trees, umm… (0:46:17) Kevin: Because you can very much pick and choose if you want to focus on certain areas and whatnot. (0:46:23) Kevin: Umm, obviously like… (0:46:25) Kevin: To get green points, that’s the farming stuff, so you do want to invest in some of that stuff. (0:46:30) Kevin: Umm, but like, early on you can really get through a lot of the wood and metalworking stuff. (0:46:37) Kevin: Umm, and again, with almost no pressure on when to do it, umm, it’s… (0:46:42) Kevin: It’s very open and you’re very free to pick and choose as you want. (0:46:46) Kevin: You know, (0:46:47) Kevin: the limitations of how many skill points you actually have notwithstanding. (0:46:52) Kevin: I think it is a clever system. (0:46:54) Kevin: And because you get to see what’s coming ahead, that helps you plan that too. (0:47:00) Kevin: I really like that. (0:47:01) Kelly: Yes, definitely. (0:47:01) Kevin: Um… (0:47:02) Kelly: There was definitely some areas in the skill tree though where I did not understand what, (0:47:09) Kelly: like if you unlocked something, (0:47:12) Kelly: I didn’t understand how to access it afterwards, (0:47:15) Kelly: which then led to me diving down a rabbit hole, (0:47:18) Kelly: trying to figure it out. (0:47:18) Kevin: Yeah, sometimes that’s a little unclear most of the time When you look at the skill tree thing it says okay, you can craft at this bench or that bench or whatever But some are not very clear. Yeah Some aren’t super clear. Yeah But I do agree (0:47:27) Kelly: Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, it definitely is pretty good. (0:47:30) Kelly: It’s pretty good. (0:47:34) Kelly: Can we talk about the main premise of the game, which I think is the most weird and fun part is, you know, collecting your corpses? (0:47:41) Kevin: Yeah, the it’s definitely yeah the differentiator the the the graveyard itself. Yeah, let’s talk about that (0:47:43) Kelly: Because you are, you are quite literally the graveyard keeper. So you get a (0:47:54) Kelly: Annoyed little donkey that delivers corpses to you. (0:47:56) Kevin: I’m red donkey from a leftist stable [laughter] (0:47:57) Kelly: And oh my god, there was so many times where I would hear that bell and just be so far away from home. (0:48:06) Kelly: And just go running because it’s like the second you hear that bell that corpse starts, you know, deteriorating. (0:48:12) Kevin: Yep Yeah, that’s that’s an interesting aspect that the forps is deteriorate and it affects a lot of things And yeah, they’re kind of deliver just at random times. It feels like I didn’t detect any pattern Umm… (0:48:22) Kelly: Yeah. (0:48:23) Kelly: Yes. (0:48:27) Kelly: No, they can definitely be whenever. (0:48:31) Kelly: And they can pile up too. (0:48:34) Kevin: Oh my gosh, I don’t think I’ve had that happen yet, but I could see that happening. (0:48:35) Kelly: Yeah, no, they can definitely pile up. (0:48:43) Kelly: I mean, this game goes in depth. (0:48:48) Kelly: I have freezers for bodies. (0:48:53) Kelly: So, you know, it’s like you are literally treating it like a morgue, like… (0:48:57) Kelly: But I think one of the most fun parts is removing the organs, (0:49:03) Kelly: but also the most hard to understand initially. (0:49:06) Kevin: Right, so yeah, let’s talk about that because as very early on you’re introduced that you have options to do the corpse One you can bury them in your graveyard. It has a prettiness rating you how you decorate it Well, you bury them and whatnot You can even just throw it in the river or cremate them or You can take them into your morgan Do a little bisection, you know see what you can poke around and find in there pull out a skull some blood What? (0:49:36) Kevin: A bit of flesh. (0:49:38) Kevin: It’s fascinating that they gave you this option. (0:49:43) Kevin: There’s… (0:49:44) Kevin: I haven’t gotten too in-depth with the body parts. (0:49:47) Kelly: So, I’ll explain it. It’s a lot. (0:49:51) Kelly: Basically, your corpse, so when you bury a corpse, you want it to be as high rated as possible because it impacts your cemeteries overall like beauty rating, (0:50:05) Kelly: which is a whole different aspect. (0:50:07) Kelly: And that’s a big part of the game because it kind of roadblocks you if you don’t keep up with it. (0:50:11) Kelly: But so you want to make sure you’re removing. (0:50:14) Kelly: If you remove certain organs, it makes your corpses… (0:50:17) Kelly: …that’s how you can remove them. (0:50:19) Kelly: If you remove other organs, it decreases it, and they don’t really tell you at first. (0:50:23) Kelly: You have to unlock skills on the skill tree… (0:50:25) Kelly: …that tell you. (0:50:25) Kevin: Yeah, I mean they tell you like there’s bad organs, but you don’t you can’t tell which ones until you go get that later (0:50:29) Kelly: Yes. Yes. (0:50:34) Kelly: And so you can remove organs, and you can also try to put the organ back. (0:50:38) K

This week on Fraudish Kelly is joined by Dr. David P. Weber, CFE, who recently defended his dissertation on  the Severity of Embezzlement as Predicted by Demographic Variables, or as I call it, Pink Collar Crime. David and I chat all things about the demographic factors of embezzlement, how in todays world that truth may not be a popular one, and how we share the facts of embezzlement despite resistance. We also get into some places we have seen fraud in pop culture. Enjoy! Check out Dr. Weber's dissertation here.  Perry Mason Show Bosch Show

Kelly Shortridge, Senior Principal Engineer at Fastly, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss their recently released book, Security Chaos Engineering: Sustaining Resilience in Software and Systems. Kelly explains why a resilient strategy is far preferable to a bubble-wrapped approach to cybersecurity, and how developer teams can use evidence to mitigate security threats. Corey and Kelly discuss how the risks of working with complex systems is perfectly illustrated by Jurassic Park, and Kelly also highlights why it's critical to address both system vulnerabilities and human vulnerabilities in your development environment rather than pointing fingers when something goes wrong.About KellyKelly Shortridge is a senior principal engineer at Fastly in the office of the CTO and lead author of "Security Chaos Engineering: Sustaining Resilience in Software and Systems" (O'Reilly Media). Shortridge is best known for their work on resilience in complex software systems, the application of behavioral economics to cybersecurity, and bringing security out of the dark ages. Shortridge has been a successful enterprise product leader as well as a startup founder (with an exit to CrowdStrike) and investment banker. Shortridge frequently advises Fortune 500s, investors, startups, and federal agencies and has spoken at major technology conferences internationally, including Black Hat USA, O'Reilly Velocity Conference, and SREcon. Shortridge's research has been featured in ACM, IEEE, and USENIX, spanning behavioral science in cybersecurity, deception strategies, and the ROI of software resilience. They also serve on the editorial board of ACM Queue.Links Referenced: Fastly: https://www.fastly.com/ Personal website: https://kellyshortridge.com Book website: https://securitychaoseng.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellyshortridge/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/swagitda_ Bluesky: https://shortridge.bsky.social TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Have you listened to the new season of Traceroute yet? Traceroute is a tech podcast that peels back the layers of the stack to tell the real, human stories about how the inner workings of our digital world affect our lives in ways you may have never thought of before. Listen and follow Traceroute on your favorite platform, or learn more about Traceroute at origins.dev. My thanks to them for sponsoring this ridiculous podcast. Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud, I'm Corey Quinn. My guest today is Kelly Shortridge, who is a Senior Principal Engineer over at Fastly, as well as the lead author of the recently released Security Chaos Engineering: Sustaining Resilience in Software and Systems. Kelly, welcome to the show.Kelly: Thank you so much for having me.Corey: So, I want to start with the honest truth that in that title, I think I know what some of the words mean, but when you put them together in that particular order, I want to make sure we're talking about the same thing. Can you explain that like I'm five, as far as what your book is about?Kelly: Yes. I'll actually start with an analogy I make in the book, which is, imagine you were trying to rollerblade to some destination. Now, one thing you could do is wrap yourself in a bunch of bubble wrap and become the bubble person, and you can waddle down the street trying to make it to your destination on the rollerblades, but if there's a gust of wind or a dog barks or something, you're going to flop over, you're not going to recover. However, if you instead do what everybody does, which is you know, kneepads and other things that keep you flexible and nimble, the gust you know, there's a gust of wind, you can kind of be agile, navigate around it; if a dog barks, you just roller-skate around it; you can reach your destination. The former, the bubble person, that's a lot of our cybersecurity today. It's just keeping us very rigid, right? And then the alternative is resilience, which is the ability to recover from failure and adapt to evolving conditions.Corey: I feel like I am about to torture your analogy to death because back when I was in school in 2000, there was an annual tradition at the school I was attending before failing out, where a bunch of us would paint ourselves green every year and then bike around the campus naked. It was the green bike ride. So, one year I did this on rollerblades. So, if you wind up looking—there's the bubble wrap, there's the safety gear, and then there's wearing absolutely nothing, which feels—Kelly: [laugh]. Yes.Corey: —kind of like the startup approach to InfoSec. It's like, “It'll be fine. What's the worst that happens?” And you're super nimble, super flexible, until suddenly, oops, now I really wish I'd done things differently.Kelly: Well, there's a reason why I don't say rollerblade naked, which other than it being rather visceral, what you described is what I've called YOLOSec before, which is not what you want to do. Because the problem when you think about it from a resilience perspective, again, is you want to be able to recover from failure and adapt. Sure, you can oftentimes move quickly, but you're probably going to erode software quality over time, so to a certain point, there's going to be some big incident, and suddenly, you aren't fast anymore, you're actually pretty slow. So, there's this, kind of, happy medium where you have enough, I would like security by design—we can talk about that a bit if you want—where you have enough of the security by design baked in and you can think of it as guardrails that you're able to withstand and recover from any failure. But yeah, going naked, that's a recipe for not being able to rollerblade, like, ever again, potentially [laugh].Corey: I think, on some level, that the correct dialing in of security posture is going to come down to context, in almost every case. I'm building something in my spare time in the off hours does not need the same security posture—mostly—as we are a bank. It feels like there's a very wide gulf between those two extremes. Unfortunately, I find that there's a certain tone-deafness coming from a lot of the security industry around oh, everyone must have security as their number one thing, ever. I mean, with my clients who I fixed their AWS bills, I have to care about security contractually, but the secrets that I hold are boring: how much money certain companies pay another very large company.Yes, I'll get sued into oblivion if that leaks, but nobody dies. Nobody is having their money stolen as a result. It's slightly embarrassing in the tech press for a cycle and then it's over and done with. That's not the same thing as a brief stint I did running tech ops at Grindr ten years ago where, leak that database and people will die. There's a strong difference between those threat models, and on some level, being able to act accordingly has been one of the more eye-opening approaches to increasing velocity in my experience. Does that align with the thesis of your book, since my copy has not yet arrived for this recording?Kelly: Yes. The book, I am not afraid to say it depends on the book, and you're right, it depends on context. I actually talk about this resilience potion recipe that you can check out if you want, these ingredients so we can sustain resilience. A key one is defining your critical functions, just what is your system's reason for existence, and that is what you want to make sure it can recover and still operate under adverse conditions, like you said.Another example I give all the time is most SaaS apps have some sort of reporting functionality. Guess what? That's not mission-critical. You don't need the utmost security on that, for the most part. But if it's processing transactions, yeah, probably you want to invest more security there. So yes, I couldn't agree more that it's context-dependent and oh, my God, does the security industry ignore that so much of the time, and it's been my gripe for, I feel like as long as I've been in the industry.Corey: I mean, there was a great talk that Netflix gave years ago where they mentioned in passing, that all developers have root in production. And that's awesome and the person next to him was super excited and I looked at their badge, and holy hell, they worked at an actual bank. That seems like a bad plan. But talking to the Netflix speaker after the fact, Dave Hahn, something that I found that was extraordinarily insightful, was that, yeah, well we just isolate off the PCI environment so the rest and sensitive data lives in its own compartmentalized area. So, at that point, yeah, you're not going to be able to break much in that scenario.It's like, that would have been helpful context to put in talk. Which I'm sure he did, but my attention span had tripped out and I missed that. But that's, on some level, constraining blast radius and not having compliance and regulatory issues extending to every corner of your environment really frees you up to do things appropriately. But there are some things where you do need to care about this stuff, regardless of how small the surface area is.Kelly: Agreed. And I introduced the concept of the effort investment portfolio in the book, which is basically, that is where does it matter to invest effort and where can you kind of like, maybe save some resources up. I think one thing you touched on, though, is, we're really talking about isolation and I actually think people don't think about isolation in as detailed or maybe as expansively as they could. Because we want both temporal and logical and spatial isolation. What you talked about is, yeah, there are some cases where you want to isolate data, you want to isolate certain subsystems, and that could be containers, it could also be AWS security groups.It could take a bunch of different forms, it could be something like RLBox in WebAssembly land. But I think that's something that I really try to highlight in the book is, there's actually a huge opportunity for security engineers starting from the design of a system to really think about how can we infuse different forms of isolation to sustain resilience.Corey: It's interesting that you use the word investment. When fixing AWS bills for a living, I've learned over the last almost seven years now of doing this that cost and architecture and cloud are fundamentally the same thing. And resilience is something that comes with a very real cost, particularly when you start looking at what the architectural choices are. And one of the big reasons that I only ever work on a fixed-fee basis is because if I'm charging for a percentage of savings or something, it inspires me to say really uncomfortable things like, “Backups are for cowards.” And, “When was the last time you saw an entire AWS availability zone go down for so long that it mattered? You don't need to worry about that.” And it does cut off an awful lot of cost issues, at the price of making the environment more fragile.That's where one of the context thing starts to come in. I mean, in many cases, if AWS is having a bad day in a given region, well does your business need that workload to be functional? For my newsletter, I have a publication system that's single-homed out of the Oregon region. If that whole thing goes down for multiple days, I'm writing that week's issue by hand because I'm going to have something different to talk about anyway. For me, there is no value in making that investment. But for companies, there absolutely is, but there's also seems to be a lack of awareness around, how much is a reasonable investment in that area when do you start making that investment? And most critically, when do you stop?Kelly: I think that's a good point, and luckily, what's on my side is the fact that there's a lot of just profligate spending in cybersecurity and [laugh] that's really what I'm focused on is, how can we spend those investments better? And I actually think there's an opportunity in many cases to ditch a ton of cybersecurity tools and focus more on some of the stuff he talked about. I agree, by the way that I've seen some threat models where it's like, well, AWS, all regions go down. I'm like, at that point, we have, like, a severe, bigger-than-whatever-you're-thinking-about problem, right?Corey: Right. So, does your business continuity plan account for every one of your staff suddenly quitting on the spot because there's a whole bunch of companies with very expensive consulting, like, problems that I'm going to go work for a week and then buy a house in cash. It's one of those areas where, yeah, people are not going to care about your environment more than they are about their families and other things that are going on. Plan accordingly. People tend to get so carried away with these things with tabletop planning exercises. And then of course, they forget little things like I overwrote the database by dropping the wrong thing. Turns out that was production. [laugh]. Remembering for [a me 00:10:00] there.Kelly: Precisely. And a lot of the chaos experiments that I talk about in the book are a lot of those, like, let's validate some of those basics, right? That's actually some of the best investments you can make. Like, if you do have backups, I can totally see your argument about backups are for cowards, but if you do have them, like, maybe you conduct experiments to make sure that they're available when you need them, and the same thing, even on the [unintelligible 00:10:21] side—Corey: No one cares about backups, but everyone really cares about restores, suddenly, right after—Kelly: Yeah.Corey: —they really should have cared about backups.Kelly: Exactly. So, I think it's looking at those experiments where it's like, okay, you have these basic assumptions in place that you assume to be invariance or assume that they're going to bail you out if something goes wrong. Let's just verify. That's a great place to start because I can tell you—I know you've been to the RSA hall floor—how many cybersecurity teams are actually assessing the efficacy and actually experimenting to see if those tools really help them during incidents. It's pretty few.Corey: Oh, vendors do not want to do those analyses. They don't want you to do those analyses, either, and if you do, for God's sakes, shut up about it. They're trying to sell things here, mostly firewalls.Kelly: Yeah, cybersecurity vendors aren't necessarily happy about my book and what I talk about because I have almost this ruthless focus on evidence and [unintelligible 00:11:08] cybersecurity vendors kind of thrive on a lack of evidence. So.Corey: There's so much fear, uncertainty, and doubt in that space and I do feel for them. It's a hard market to sell in without having to talk about here's the thing that you're defending against. In my case, it's easy to sell the AWS bill is high because if I don't have to explain why more or less setting money on fire as a bad thing, I don't really know what to tell you. I'm going to go look for a slightly different customer profile. That's not really how it works in security, I'm sure there are better go-to-market approaches, but they're hard to find, at least, ones that work holistically.Kelly: There are. And one of my priorities with the book was to really enumerate how many opportunities there are to take software engineering practices that people already know, let's say something like type systems even, and how those can actually help sustain resilience. Even things like integration testing or infrastructure as code, there are a lot of opportunities just to extend what we already do for systems reliability to sustain resilience against things that aren't attacks and just make sure that, you know, we cover a few of those cases as well. A lot of it should be really natural to software engineering teams. Again, security vendors don't like that because it turns out software engineering teams don't particularly like security vendors.Corey: I hadn't noticed that. I do wonder, though, for those who are unaware, chaos engineering started off as breaking things on purpose, which I feel like one person had a really good story and thought about it super quickly when they were about to get fired. Like, “No, no, it's called Chaos Engineering.” Good for them. It's now a well-regarded discipline. But I've always heard of it in the context of reliability of, “Oh, you think your site is going to work if the database falls over? Let's push it over and see what happens.” How does that manifest in a security context?Kelly: So, I will clarify, I think that's a slight misconception. It's really about fixing things in production, and that's the end goal. I think we should not break things just to break them, right? But I'll give a simple example, which I know it's based on what Aaron Rinehart conducted at UnitedHealth Group, which is, okay, let's inject a misconfigured port as an experiment and see what happens, end-to-end. In their case, the firewall only detected the misconfigured port 60% of the time, so 60% of the time, it works every time.But it was actually the cloud, the very common, like, Cloud configuration management tool that caught the change and alerted responders. So, it's that kind of thing where we're still trying to verify those assumptions that we have about our systems and how they behave, again, end-to-end. In a lot of cases, again, with security tools, they are not behaving as we expect. But I still argue security is just a subset of software quality, so if we're experimenting to verify, again, our assumptions and observe system behavior, we're benefiting software quality, and security is just a subset of that. Think about C code, right? It's not like there's, like, a healthy memory corruption, so it's bad for both the quality and security reason.Corey: One problem that I've had in the security space for a while is—let's [unintelligible 00:14:05] on this to AWS for a second because that is the area in which I spend the most of my time, which probably explains a lot about my personality challenges. But the problem that I keep smacking into is if I go ahead and configure everything the way that I should according to best practices and the rest, I wind up with a firehose torrent of information in terms of CloudTrail logs, et cetera. And it's expensive in its own right. But then to sort through it or to do a lot of things in security, there are basically two options. I can either buy a vendor's product, which generally tends to start around $12,000 a year and goes up rapidly from there on my current $6,000 a year bill, so okay, twice as much as the infrastructure for security monitoring. Okay.Or alternately, find a bunch of different random scripts and tools on GitHub of wildly diverging quality and sort of hope for the best on that. It feels like there's nothing in between. And the reason I care about this is not because I'm cheap but because when you have an individual learner who is either a student or a career switcher or someone just trying to experiment with this, you want them to begin as you want them to go on, and things that are no money for an enterprise are all the money to them. They're going to learn to work with the tools that they can afford. That feels like it's a big security swing and a miss. Do you agree or disagree? What's the nuance I'm missing here?Kelly: No, I don't think there's nuance you're missing. I think security observability, for one, isn't a buzzword that particularly exists. I've been trying to make it a thing, but I'm solely one individual screaming into the void. But observability just hasn't been a thing. We haven't really focused on, okay, so what, like, we get data and what do we do with it?And I think, again, from a software engineering perspective, I think there's a lot we can do. One, we can just avoid duplicating efforts. We can treat observability, again, of any sort of issue as similar, whether that's an attack or a performance issue. I think this is another place where security, or any sort of chaos experiment, shines though because if you have an idea of here's an adverse scenario we care about, you can actually see how does it manifest in the logs and you can start to figure out, like, what signals do we actually need to be looking for, what signals mattered to be able to narrow it down. Which again, it involves time and effort, but also, I can attest when you're buying the security vendor tool and, in theory, absolving some of that time and effort, it's maybe, maybe not, because it can be hard to understand what the outcomes are or what the outputs are from the tool and it can also be very difficult to tune it and to be able to explain some of the outputs. It's kind of like trading upfront effort versus long-term overall overhead if that makes sense.Corey: It does. On that note, the title of your book includes the magic key phrase ‘sustaining resilience.' I have found that security effort and investment tends to resemble a fire drill in—Kelly: [laugh].Corey: —an awful lot of places, where, “We care very much about security,” says the company, right after they very clearly failed to care about security, and I know this because I'm reading getting an email about a breach that they've just sent me. And then there's a whole bunch of running around and hair-on-fire moments. But then there's a new shiny that always comes up, a new strategic priority, and it falls to the wayside again. What do you see the drives that sustained effort and focus on resilience in a security context?Kelly: I think it's really making sure you have a learning culture, which sounds very [unintelligible 00:17:30], but things again, like, experiments can help just because when you do simulate those adverse scenarios and you see how your system behaves, it's almost like running an incident and you can use that as very fresh, kind of, like collective memory. And I even strongly recommend starting off with prior incidents in simulating those, just to see like, hey, did the improvements we make actually help? If they didn't, that can be kind of another fire under the butt, so to speak, to continue investing. So, definitely in practice—and there's some case studies in the book—it can be really helpful just to kind of like sustain that memory and sustain that learning and keep things feeling a bit fresh. It's almost like prodding the nervous system a little, just so it doesn't go back to that complacent and convenient feeling.Corey: It's one of the hard problems because—I'm sure I'm going to get castigated for this by some of the listeners—but computers are easy, particularly compared to the people. There are deterministic ways to solve almost any computer problem, but people are always going to be a little bit different, and getting them to perform the same way today that they did yesterday is an exercise in frustration. Changing the culture, changing the approach and the attitude that people take toward a lot of these things feels, from my perspective, like, something of an impossible job. Cultural transformations are things that everyone talks about, but it's rare to see them succeed.Kelly: Yes, and that's actually something that I very strongly weaved throughout the book is that if your security solutions rely on human behavior, they're going to fail. We want to either reduce hazards or eliminate hazards by design as much as possible. So, my view is very much again, like, can you make processes more repeatable? That's going to help security. I definitely do not think that if anyone takes away from my book that they need to have, like, a thousand hours of training to change hearts and minds, then they have completely misunderstood most of the book.The idea is very much like, what are practices that we want for other outcomes anyway—again, reliability or faster time to market—and how can we harness those to also be improving resilience or security at the same time? It's very much trying to think about those opportunities rather than, you know, trying to drill into people's heads, like, “Thou shalt not,” or, “Thou shall.”Corey: Way back in 2018, you gave a keynote at some conference or another and you built the entire thing on the story of Jurassic Park, specifically Ian Malcolm as one of your favorite fictional heroes, and you tied it into security in a bunch of different ways. You hadn't written this book then unless the authorship process is way longer than I think it is. So, I'm curious to get your take on what Jurassic Park can teach us about software security.Kelly: Yes, so I talk about Jurassic Park as a reference throughout the book, frequently. I've loved that book since I was a very young child. Jurassic Park is a great example of a complex system gone wrong because you can't point to any one thing. Like there's Dennis Nedry, you know, messing up the power system, but then there's also the software was looking for a very specific count of dinosaurs and they didn't anticipate there could be more in the count. Like, there are so many different factors that influenced it, you can't actually blame just, like, human error or point fingers at one thing.That's a beautiful example of how things go wrong in our software systems because like you said, there's this human element and then there's also how the humans interact and how the software components interact. But with Jurassic Park, too, I think the great thing is dinosaurs are going to do dinosaur things like eating people, and there are also equivalents in software, like C code. C code is going to do C code things, right? It's not a memory safe language, so we shouldn't be surprised when something goes wrong. We need to prepare accordingly.Corey: “How could this happen? Again?” Yeah.Kelly: Right. At a certain point, it's like, there's probably no way to sufficiently introduce isolation for dinosaurs unless you put them in a bunker where no one can see them, and it's the same thing sometimes with things like C code. There's just no amount of effort you can invest, and you're just kind of investing for a really unclear and generally not fortuitous outcome. So, I like it as kind of this analogy to think about, okay, where do our effort investments make sense and where is it sometimes like, we really just do need to refactor because we're dealing with dinosaurs here.Corey: When I was a kid, that was one of my favorite books, too. The problem is, I didn't realize I was getting a glimpse of my future at a number of crappy startups that I worked at. Because you have John Hammond, who was the owner of the park talking constantly about how, “We spared no expense,” but then you look at what actually happened and he spared every frickin expense. You have one IT person who is so criminally underpaid that smuggling dinosaur embryos off the island becomes a viable strategy for this. He wound up, “Oh, we couldn't find the right DNA, so we're just going to, like, splice some other random stuff in there. It'll be fine.”Then you have the massive overconfidence because it sounds very much like he had this almost Muskian desire to fire anyone who disagreed with him, and yeah, there was a certain lack of investment that could have been made, despite loud protestations to the contrary. I'd say that he is the root cause, he is the proximate reason for the entire failure of the park. But I'm willing to entertain disagreement on that point.Kelly: I think there are other individuals, like Dr. Wu, if you recall, like, deciding to do the frog DNA and not thinking that maybe something could go wrong. I think there was a lot of overconfidence, which you're right, we do see a lot in software. So, I think that's actually another very important lesson is that incentives matter and incentives are very hard to change, kind of like what you talked about earlier. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't include incentives in our threat model.So like, in the book I talked about, our threat models should include things like maybe yeah, people are underpaid or there is a ton of pressure to deliver things quickly or, you know, do things as cheaply as possible. That should be just as much of our threat models as all of the technical stuff too.Corey: I think that there's a lot that was in that movie that was flat-out wrong. For example, one of the kids—I forget her name; it's been a long time—was logging in and said, “Oh, this is Unix. I know Unix.” And having learned Unix as my first basically professional operating system, “No, you don't. No one knows Unix. They get very confused at some point, the question is, just how far down what rabbit hole it is.”I feel so sorry for that kid. I hope she wound up seeking therapy when she was older to realize that, no, you don't actually know Unix. It's not that you're bad at computers, it's that Unix is user-hostile, actively so. Like, the raptors, like, that's the better metaphor when everything winds up shaking out.Kelly: Yeah. I don't disagree with that. The movie definitely takes many liberties. I think what's interesting, though, is that Michael Creighton, specifically, when he talks about writing the book—I don't know how many people know this—dinosaurs were just a mechanism. He knew people would want to read it in airport.What he cared about was communicating really the danger of complex systems and how if you don't respect them and respect that interactivity and that it can baffle and surprise us, like, things will go wrong. So, I actually find it kind of beautiful in a way that the dinosaurs were almost like an afterthought. What he really cared about was exactly what we deal with all the time in software, is when things go wrong with complexity.Corey: Like one of his other books, Airframe, talked about an air disaster. There's a bunch of contributing factors in the rest, and for some reason, that did not receive the wild acclaim that Jurassic Park did to become a cultural phenomenon that we're still talking about, what, 30 years later.Kelly: Right. Dinosaurs are very compelling.Corey: They really are. I have to ask though—this is the joy of having a kid who is almost six—what is your favorite dinosaur? Not a question most people get asked very often, but I am going to trot that one out.Kelly: No. Oh, that is such a good question. Maybe a Deinonychus.Corey: Oh, because they get so angry they spit and kill people? That's amazing.Kelly: Yeah. And I like that, kind of like, nimble, smarter one, and also the fact that most of the smaller ones allegedly had feathers, which I just love this idea of, like, feather-ful murder machines. I have the classic, like, nerd kid syndrome, though, where I read all these dinosaur names as a kid and I've never pronounced them out loud. So, I'm sure there are others—Corey: Yep.Kelly: —that I would just word salad. But honestly, it's hard to go wrong with choosing a favorite dinosaur.Corey: Oh, yeah. I'm sure some paleontologist is sitting out there in the field on the dig somewhere listening to this podcast, just getting very angry at our pronunciation and things. But for God's sake, I call the database Postgres-squeal. Get in line. There's a lot of that out there where looking at a complex system failures and different contributing factors and the rest makes stuff—that's what makes things interesting.I think that there's this the idea of a root cause is almost always incorrect. It's not, “Okay, who tripped over the buried landmine,” is not the interesting question. It's, “Who buried the thing?” What were all the things that wound up contributing to this? And you can't even frame it that way in the blaming context, just because you start doing that and people clam up, and good luck figuring out what really happened.Kelly: Exactly. That's so much of what the cybersecurity industry is focused on is how do we assign blame? And it's, you know, the marketing person clicked on a link. And it's like, they do that thousands of times, like a month, and the one time, suddenly, they were stupid for doing it? That doesn't sound right.So, I'm a big fan of, yes, vanquishing root cause, thinking about contributing factors, and in particular, in any sort of incident review, you have to think about, was there a designer process problem? You can't just think about the human behavior; you have to think about where are the opportunities for us to design things better, to make this secure way more of the default way.Corey: When you talk about resilience and reliability and big, notable outages, most forward-thinking companies are going to go and do a variety of incident reviews and disclosures around everything that happened to it, depending upon levels of trust and whether your NDA'ed or not, and how much gets public is going to vary from place to place. But from a security perspective, that feels like the sort of thing that companies will clam up about and never say a word.Kelly: Yes.Corey: Because I can wind up pouring a couple of drinks into people and get the real story of outages, or the AWS bill, but security stuff, they start to wonder if I'm a state actor, on some level. When you were building all of this, how did you wind up getting people to talk candidly and forthrightly about issues that if it became tied to them that they were talking to this in public would almost certainly have negative career impact for them?Kelly: Yes, so that's almost like a trade secret, I feel like. A lot of it is yes, over the years talking with people over, generally at a conference where you know, things are tipsy. I never want to betray confidentiality, to be clear, but certainly pattern-matching across people's stories.Corey: Yeah, we're both in positions where if even the hint of they can't be trusted enters the ecosystem, I think both of our careers explode and never recover. Like it's—Kelly: Exactly.Corey: —yeah. Oh, yeah. They play fast and loose with secrets is never the reputation you want as a professional.Kelly: No. No, definitely not. So, it's much more pattern matching and trying to generalize. But again, a lot of what can go wrong is not that different when you think about a developer being really tired and making a bunch of mistakes versus an attacker. A lot of times they're very much the same, so luckily there's commonality there.I do wish the security industry was more forthright and less clandestine because frankly, all of the public postmortems that are out there about performance issues are just such, such a boon for everyone else to improve what they're doing. So, that's a change I wish would happen.Corey: So, I have to ask, given that you talk about security, chaos engineering, and resilience-and of course, software and systems—all in the title of the O'Reilly book, who is the target audience for this? Is it folks who have the word security featured three times in their job title? Is it folks who are new to the space? What is your target audience start and stop?Kelly: Yes, so I have kept it pretty broad and it's anyone who works with software, but I'll talk about the software engineering audience because that is, honestly, probably out of anyone who I would love to read the book the most because I firmly believe that there's so much that software engineering teams can do to sustain resilience and security and they don't have to be security experts. So, I've tried to demystify security, make it much less arcane, even down to, like, how attackers, you know, they have their own development lifecycle. I try to demystify that, too. So, it's very much for any team, especially, like, platform engineering teams, SREs, to think about, hey, what are some of the things maybe I'm already doing that I can extend to cover, you know, the security cases as well? So, I would love for every software engineer to check it out to see, like, hey, what are the opportunities for me to just do things slightly differently and have these great security outcomes?Corey: I really want to thank you for taking the time to talk with me about how you view these things. If people want to learn more, where's the best place for them to find you?Kelly: Yes, I have all of the social media which is increasingly fragmented, [laugh] I feel like, but I also have my personal site, kellyshortridge.com. The official book site is securitychaoseng.com as well. But otherwise, find me on LinkedIn, Twitter, [Mastodon 00:30:22], Bluesky. I'm probably blanking on the others. There's probably already a new one while we've spoken.Corey: Blue-ski is how I insist on pronouncing it as well, while we're talking about—Kelly: Blue-ski?Corey: Funhouse pronunciation on things.Kelly: I like it.Corey: Excellent. And we will, of course, put links to all of those things in the [show notes 00:30:37]. Thank you so much for being so generous with your time. I really appreciate it.Kelly: Thank you for having me and being a fellow dinosaur nerd.Corey: [laugh]. Kelly Shortridge, Senior Principal Engineer at Fastly. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an insulting comment about how our choice of dinosaurs is incorrect, then put the computer away and struggle to figure out how to open a door.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

This eye-opening convo exposes the reality many foster care youth face and shows what following passion instead of a path can achieve.  If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co . And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe. In this episode you will learn about:The backstory to Barely Canadian Tackling a large problem and believing in the impactThe foster care system and “aging out”Learning as you go and learning with othersLeading with your heart for success Finding something that you want to be a part of Episode References/Links:IG @barelycanadianWebsite Barely CanadianIG @kellyslatteryIG @marisapolvinoIG @straightupimpactEchoes of Hope WebsiteKidsave WebsiteGuest Bio:MARISA POLVINOCo-CEO/Founder STRAIGHT UP FILMS and STRAIGHT UP IMPACTWith a career spanning over three decades, Marisa Polvino is a prolific producer and entrepreneur with a skill for identifying, packaging, and producing quality, star-driven entertainment across all genres and budget levels. Presently, Marisa is Partner and Co-CEO/Founder of STRAIGHT UP FILMS a fully integrated multi-media production company that has worked alongside top-name Hollywood talent, including Natalie Portman, Rosario Dawson, Jesse Eisenberg, Gina Rodriguez and Johnny Depp.Polvino identifies and shapes projects that align with the company's ethos. Presently, she oversees a top flight feature slate which includeHow to Set a Fire and Why, directed by award winning director/actress Lisa Edelstein, Dissonance, a YA love story set in the multiverse directed by Catherine Hardwicke, Joseph Merrick - The Elephant Man to be directed by Rupert Sanders and a film adaptation of Viktor Frankl's iconic memoir Man's Search for Meaning.Recognizing the profound effect cinema can have on culture Polvino co-founded Straight Up Impact. The companies mission is to create, produce and finance thought provoking content that appeals to human emotions, shifts perspectives and inspires positive social change.Polvino uses her entrepreneurial spirit and know-how and focuses on forging relationships with likeminded partners while also overseeing much of the company's business strategy, development, marketing and operational structure. In 2019, she created the “Power On” series for Google's computer science in media division which was a short-film series directed by leading actresses and designed to promote greater gender and racial diversity in STEAM fields. Polvino is currently producing the "Meaning in Madness" film series which centers around the systemic issues contributing to the mental health crisis facing young adults and teens today and the importance of meaning and purpose in their lives.Marisa is inspired by her two children and encourages them to follow their passions, pay attention to what matters most in life and to always work hard and be nice to people.KELLY SLATTERY Kelly Slattery, a native Canadian and songwriter by trade, made an interesting progression from writing music for such companies as Lionsgate, CBS and Disney, to writing screenplays and producing for film, to philanthropy and now, Barely Canadian, her social enterprise clothing line.Down for Life which premiered at the Toronto Film Festival, was Kelly's first feature, followed by subsequent Lionsgate projects like House of the Rising Sun and Cougars Inc, with Hijacked and Breaking Wind soon to follow, released by Anchor Bay.Kelly was a founding partner of Therapy Content, the production company for Dave Grohl's Sound City and Sonic Highways, and was fortunate to touch so many impactful products, although she eventually ventured off on her own after selling one of her TV comedies she co-created with Lee Aronsohn (co-creator of Two and a Half Men) in the room to ABC networks, along with signing a surf drama to Legendary Pictures. Whilst in development on her own projects, Kelly works as a consultant in the Film and TV space; developing, packaging and setting up projects at various studios.Kelly felt inspired to step into the nonprofit space years later, when she and her husband adopted their then 16 year old daughter from foster care. Starting at Venice Arts as the Director of Advancement, Kelly was quickly recruited by Film2Future as their Executive Director and went on to increase their operating budget by 83% in her first year while deciding to complete her family, Kelly and her husband foster to adopt her then 16 year old son.Barely Canadian was created to show their children that an idea can become a business and how to see an idea through to fruition. The moment friends and family got their hands on Barely Canadian, they quickly knew this business training idea had just become a company. As a Social Enterprise company that supports foster youth, it was important for the brand to feel as "home" and cozy as possible to align with their messaging about helping foster youth find their forever homes, hence Barely Canadian's mainstay of super soft clothing. Barely Canadian is proud to share that they source and hire all locally and donate 20% of our profits to foster youth organizations like Kidsave and Echoes of Hope.  OPC Flashcards:OPC Flashcards are on AmazonOPC Flashcards are on our site  If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.  ResourcesWatch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube!Lesley Logan websiteBe It Till You See It PodcastOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley LoganOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTubeProfitable Pilates Social MediaInstagramFacebookTik TokLinkedIn Episode Transcript:Lesley Logan 0:00  Hey Be It babe, what's up? Okay, I this is just I'm like glowing. I'm like can't stop smiling. I have two guests on today's interview. Two women who, gosh, their, their passion and purpose, like what they care so much about. It's like, freakin' like, it's contagious and like, like the only best way can get a contagion can be. Anyway (Lesley laughs) anyways, like it really is though like every time I get off a call with them I am sitting a little taller, flying a little higher, buzzing a little bit faster. And, and Brad actually joined today's interview as well. So we have a foursome. In fact, I met Kelly, because of Brad. And Kelly and Brad go way back in time. And Kelly is such a connector, which is why we're probably like, just to like kindred spirits there. But um, Kelly and Marisa have this amazing company Barely Canadian what you're gonna hear about. And I really can't wait for you to hear how they answer all their questions. Because I think that too often we're trying to figure out how do we organize all the thoughts? How do we organize all the dots before we start something. And that's not how things work. And even if you could connect all the dots, even if you had everything in place, and you're like, "Okay, I've got the plan. I've got the plan, here it is." Something is gonna come and rip that plan right out, water is gonna spill on that plan you're gonna miss, you're gonna lose a couple of those dots. And that's okay. And that's what makes that but it's also what makes you realize what's worth fighting for. And so these two women are super, super passionate about foster youth, and the organization's could save and echoes of hope. And they have a social enterprise, which is like they created a product that I can't wait for you to touch in your own lives. And it supports these organizations. And, you know, now more than ever, I think it's really important that we follow our passions and our purpose and it really does make you light up and make you want to show up when you're scared to death, to do something. So these two women are really doing something for a great cause. And they don't have all the answers to how they're going to do things but they are being it till they see it as they do it. And I'm really passionate about what they're doing. Brad and I are so freakin' stoked to be working with them and find different ways to collaborate with them and I can't wait for you to also witness that journey because we are still figuring it out. And that is what makes it super super fun and I can't wait to see how we can continue to support them in all our ways with our Profitable Pilates business and with OPC. I just the more more time and more excuse I can do to spend time with these women and what they're doing I will. So without further ado, here is our first two guests interview and with Brad joining in so it's special treat and I hope you enjoy it and I really can't wait to hear your takeaways. Please tag us, tag @barelycanadian. And let us know how this affected you? How this helped you? How this show do some light and some inspiration? All right, thank you so much. Here it is.Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guests will bring Bold, Executable, Intrinsic and Targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started.All right, Be It Till You See It listeners. We have a very exciting adventure for you right now. There has there's not only one guest, there are two guests and Brad's joining us. So we have (Brad: What? woot woot woot) we have an actual foursome happening (Lesley laughs) on this podcast. Um, you've got Kelly Slattery and Marisa Polvino, I hope I said their names correctly. And I am just really delighted to bring these two women to you. They are doing something so amazing. And there just proof that like taking an idea and just going for it no matter how many obstacles or what people might think about going into a somewhat crowded market. And they're doing it because they care so much about a special cause, I'm not let them tell you about but I just I had to have these women on because they're I think they're going to inspire you to Be It Till You See It and not let, not let anything get in your way. So Kelly and Marisa said thanks for being here. Can you each introduce yourselves?Kelly Slattery 4:37  Yeah, Marisa so you go ahead (Marisa: What?) and you'll talk... I always talk first. (Lesley laughs) You have to realize that I'm gonna be a gentle lady and say, "You talk first." (Lesley laughs)Marisa Polvino 4:46  Good morning Be It Till You See It people. Um, my name is Marisa Polvino. I am a film producer and content creator. I have a company called Straight Up Impact which creates thought provoking gain content around global issues that are most urgent. I also make films but I've been over the years moving more into the social impact space because my heart and my soul needs to be a little more fulfilled than what the customary film industry can do to one's heart and soul. (Lesley laughs) And Kelly and I've been friends for a long time and I and when she launched Barely Canadian. As a social enterprise company, I immediately wanted to jump on board with her and help build out one some of the most snugly, softest, comfy where ever but also one that provides money towards foster youth and supporting foster youth. And I happened to be making a short film about uncovering the systemic issues in the foster care system. And what we can do as a community to come together and help these foster youth live a fruitful, powerful, beautiful life after the foster care system after they age out. (Lesley: Oh) So that's about me and you can find me on Instagram at @marissapolvino and at @straightupimpact.Lesley Logan 6:07  Amazing. Okay, I want to dive into that but we have to we have to hear back from Kelly first. So Kelly, tell us how (Kelly: So many) got here.Kelly Slattery 6:15  Gosh such a tale. I'm a, I'm Canadian. My name is Kelly Slattery. And I came to America because I had a song in a Lionsgate Soundtrack, American Psycho 2. And I was an artist in Canada. So I was like, "I'm gonna move illegally to Canada, I mean to America," (Lesley laughs) to your country. And so I made the journey. It was interesting that later on in life, I actually wrote a TV show about that experience of being an illegal alien, it was about, it was about an illegal Canadian who lives in with illegal Mexican family and works in construction. We did sell it to ABC. I had the co-creator of Two and a Half Men and Big Bang, as you know, my showrunner. So I went from like, then I started producing films. I was a founder of a company that we produced for Dave Grohl. We did Sound City, we did Sonic Highways. But I left actually pretty much when I sold that show that I had written. And then we had another... Anyways, I've always been involved in entertainment, as a as a songwriter, as a singer, as a producer, and as a writer. And when we adopted our kids, initially, my daughter from foster care at the age of 16, I decided to convert my life to service and so I joined the nonprofit space, which was really interesting. And, and really challenging. And, and it's unique. Let me, let me just leave it there as calling it a very unique space, you know, but I learned a lot. And I learned that what I really want to do is something that makes a difference in the world. I always reference this film I had done for Lionsgate that I produced in Michigan, it was overnights, it was winter, it was exterior, it was awful, because (Lesley laughs) it was freezing and just like like physically traumatic, I would say just the cold even as a Canadian, which is why I'm called "Barely Canadian," because I'm always freezing. But anyways, I realize this ended up in the Walmart bin for 2.99 on sale. I gave two years of my life and my heart to this, I'm not doing this anymore. So trying to really find purpose in my life. When we adopted our son, we're actually in the process of adopting our son, we brought him into our family, we wanted to show them that an idea can become something and just with little steps and progression and just like due diligence of basic, you know actions every day or every week, you can build something. So that was the purpose of Barely Canadian was to show them how to be entrepreneurs, how to acquire basic business skills. And anyways, long and short people really liked the product and boom, it's it became a company. And we give 20% back to foster youth. And Marisa started coming to the pop ups I was doing and she just was like, "I love everything about this. Can I participate?" I'm like, "Hell yeah."Brad Crowell 8:59  Did you know, did you know each other prior?Kelly Slattery 9:01  Yeah, we had been engaged in some film projects together and and just became really fast friends. When Marisa moved out here from New York. SoMarisa Polvino 9:11  Yeah. I moved in New York, Kelly was the first one of the first people that I met outside... Well, wi... within industry, but outside of the industry friends that I had when I moved here and we fell in love immediately. It really was love at first sight.Lesley Logan 9:24  Well, (Kelly: Yeah) you all have that because I, Brad's known Kelly for a long time. But as soon as I got a call with you both I'm like, "Oh, I'm in love with these women. These women are amazing." (Marisa laughs) We are donating to their cause... (Lesley laughs)Brad Crowell 9:35  She was talking about you both for like a day and a half later. (Lesley: Yeah, yeah.) (Kelly: Oh my ...) It's really a great convo.Kelly Slattery 9:39  Well, we can find kindred spirits, right. Like I think we connect because we were connected already. (Lesley: Yeah) I think, you know, and we're taken by your gorgeous red hair. So that's why we're here. (Lesley laughs) Yeah, and then with Marisa the whites of her eyes were so white and I didn't want to shoot you know, but honestly the whites over eyes are so white. It's extraordinary. (Lesley: Oh my gosh) I remember that when I first met her.Lesley Logan 10:04  Oh, ladies, I love you... I so I want to go, Marisa, you said something. And maybe the two of you can talk about this, I kind of feel like working, doing a social enterprise, working in a nonprofit space trying to make an impact, you almost have to be like, act as if what you're doing is making the difference that you are hoping to make some day because it is so I don't know, I won't answer the question for you. But I feel like it's so hard to show up every day for a cause that has so much systemic problems, that if you don't act as if it's like, what you're doing is making the difference on a daily basis. It's kind of hard. So can you speak to that? Like, what is it take to? I think a lot of people want a part of social impact. And like, what does it take to do that? Like, how do you start?Marisa Polvino 10:50  You want me to start? (Lesley: Yeah) Well, I mean, I think everything is hard, right? Whatever, whatever you endeavor to do, is, it is like pushing that boulder up the hill, and finding certain projects, be it in the film side of the things, or in an apparel line. If you have a passion around what that product is bringing to the marketplace. And if you strongly believe that that messaging, that brand messaging around it, any kind of a product is one that the world needs, and that it can enact a change that is most vital, then it's easy to get behind it. Because everything, everything is difficult. And you know, somebody, many, many years ago, you know, one the persistence of vision, but two like, if you do what you love, the money, the success, whatever it is that you're hoping to achieve from it will follow. And to not just lead with your passion, lead with what you love to do. And what the messaging is and what what that content, that material, that peril, whatever that is brings to the world can add value to your soul and add value to your audience that you're presenting it to. And I think what's really easy is you know, like I'm wearing this sweatshirt. Yes, it is like shameless promotion. But it's also like really super comfortable. I was taking my dog for a walk earlier, I had the sound like, "Oh, I'm just... I was not intending to wear it." but like, "Oh my God, it's so comfortable. I don't want to take it off." (Lesley: Okay...) And ...Lesley Logan 12:22  I have to say yes because I have three Barely Canadian sweaters and I wore them five days in a row. Like I just, I went through a cycle ... (Lesley laughs) (Marisa: I can't take it off. I was waiting) Kelly Slattery 12:31  You know actually ... Lesley texting you need one for Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, (Lesley: Yeah) Saturday, Sunday, like the designated and I thought we should do that. Remember how they used to do underwear? (Lesley: Yeah)Marisa Polvino 12:41  It has the labeled underwear? I was just thinking. Lesley Logan 12:42  ... I'm so glad you picked up on that because I was like, "I hope she knows I'm talking about. I'm talking about when you were a kid, the underwear." (Lesley laughs)Kelly Slattery 12:51  Yeah. Yeah, (Brad: That's a...) But a kind of, I think it's a great idea - is a fun little throwback though, you know. (Marisa: I love it) Why not?Brad Crowell 12:57  I think somehow I missed that one.Lesley Logan 12:59  I don't think they had it for the boys. I think it was a (Lesley laughs) 80s girl thing.Kelly Slattery 13:03  ... wonder rose. We had wonder rose. (Marisa: We had wonder rose.)Brad Crowell 13:06  Wonder rose. No idea what that is.Kelly Slattery 13:08  It gotta be in northeast thing. (Marisa: ... underwear)Lesley Logan 13:11  So um, so you know, Kelly, you you started Barely Canadian. Before that you mentioned you wrote songs. And you know, you have this incredible story about like, a vision you had you you were in your grandmother's house? And can you actually talk about that? Because I do think, you know, Barely Canadian came from the all the little steps along the way. So can we go back in time a little bit.Kelly Slattery 13:35  It's so funny. You should say that too because I do think that Barely Canadian is everything I tend to do is like an ode to my country, to my country. (Lesley laughs) Like it's always like a salute, some kind of call back, some kind of like love letter, you know, to Canada. But but when I was, I had wanted, ultimately I, I'll go back even a little bit more just to disappoint you in lengthening the story. But so I... had moved to Ottawa. I had heard about an open mic across the street. A friend of mine said, "You should go." I said, "No, I'm not, I don't sing anymore." Long and short she made me go. The place asked me to start playing there the next day. I hadn't like sung in forever. My sister came down heard me playing at this residency. Bought me a guitar. And she said, "You need to actually learn how to play the guitar because you cannot depend on other people." With from that moment, nine months later, I recorded my very first album. I'd written all the songs. I recorded the album, and suddenly I found myself in HMV superstore. I was the, I was the only album blockbuster carried nationally. But I did all of that myself, right. So, I believe in, I think that was the empowering moment. You learn how to learn, play the guitar, you learn how to record yourself, you learn how to do all of this shit. Because if you think you can bank on anybody else, you cannot and it's really empowering is as disabling as that might feel. So for me, I had received this guitar my grandmother had passed. I'm sitting as I offer didn't say amongst a garden of clothes on the floor, just kind of distraught but watching the Grammys on this really shitty TV. And I thought, "I'm going to go there." Like, "I'm going to go there one day for sure." You know, and I wrote this song called My Life. This life is on its way, it's actually on my first album, and, and it was like this kind of up, happy, happy song. Cut to two years later, I'm invited to the Grammys by EMI, which is pretty incredible, you know, then cut to about 15 years later, and we had done a film with Dave Grohl, that the album was nominated for a Grammy. And so we went to the Grammys. And coincidentally, I brought Marisa as my date.Marisa Polvino 15:40   (Lesley: I love it.) That's right, I remember that ... (Brad: How about that.)Kelly Slattery 15:44  So you know, manifestation, I totally believe that it comes from a deep rooted place, and that what you focus on will most certainly reveal itself. But at the same time, if you if you don't focus on it for a moment, don't worry, like your path is there. The road is windy, the road is rough. I feel like there's a rhyme in there somewhere (Lesley: Yeah) that I should finish with ...Lesley Logan 16:06  Thank you for sharing that because I do, I do think a lot of people think it's so linear. I don't know why we think anything is linear, and nothing is ever done that way, like, (Lesley laughs) you know, but we anticipate that and so when we hit an obstacle, or we get distracted or something in life happens, and we have to take a pause from that. Thank you for sharing that, like, you know, don't worry, it's your the path is there. Because sometimes it picks up in a spot we didn't realize, you know, so. Okay. I want to talk about you both got involved, maybe for different reasons. And I would love to hear it in helping foster youth. And I want to hear like, what, what was that? Because I think some people we've had people on before talking about working with charities and thing like things like that. It's like, there's so many things you could be focusing on. Like Marisa said, "She wants to make an impact." There are so many problems in the world. How did you choose this? What what led you to that? And, you know, can you share more about that?Kelly Slattery 17:03  I've always had an obsession with this notion within America, which is family is everything and this obsession that there's a whole population of young kids, if family is everything, and I don't have it, where does that leave me? Right? (Lesley: Yeah) So I've always just kind of really focused on that. And when I first moved to America, I start tried to start a charity called Home Base. And it was you don't have to make a commitment to have children live in your home. But how about you just become a home base? How about at Christmas, on their birthday? They have somebody that they can connect with, somebody when they want to buy their first car? How do I go about doing that? So that was what home base was about. And in the process of trying to put this together? A friend of mine was on the board of Echoes of Hope, which is coincidentally one of the charities that we do support through our efforts at Barely Canadian, and said, "Why reinvent the wheel?A really good friend of mine has this nonprofit. Why don't you meet with her?" Her name is Stacy Robitaille, who I now call sissy, because she is like my sissy. And we first met, we just had this immediate connection as as you do, as we do, you know, with those people that are meant to be in our lives. So I started volunteering with foster youth. I'd always wanted to adopt a foster child. And coincidentally, I think what helped put that into place was meeting my husband on our very first date, learning that his mother was in foster, and learning that he also wanted to adopt a foster child. So that was a big deal for me, because as you get older, and you decide to focus on career, instead of personal life, you think, "Gosh, I've missed the opportunity to have a child. But I, I've always wanted to adopt and have a child, I hope I can meet a guy that is okay with me not being able to have my own child." Right? That's the big fear for women as you get older. And so to actually have that first date with him, and that was very important to him. And a goal of his as well in life was incredible. So cut to what I guess three years into our marriage, we started to begin the process of becoming a foster parent, which is a very long process, but a very worthy process. And like anything else, little steps, and suddenly you're there, you know, after a year's time, and of course we we are a foster adopt family, we have fostered a couple of other kids and adopted or adopting our son and we have adopted our daughter. So you know, the whole population of foster youth out there is important to us. We helped our kids and our help kids helped us, find our forever home because truly kids save created our family for us. But within barely ...Brad Crowell 19:35  Kidsave as the organization?Kelly Slattery 19:37  Yeah, Kidsave is how you can meet older kids to adopt. Because otherwise they're going to age out. And so yeah, it was just ...Brad Crowell 19:46  Can you talk a little bit more about this age out thing and just, you know, (Lesley: Yeah) what does that mean? I think, I think a lot of people ... like we (Kelly: I'm okay) I grew up hearing about adopting and then I sort of heard about fostering but didn't really I understand the concept of it. And I certainly never understood the ramifications of aging out.Kelly Slattery 20:05  Yeah. So if you don't find it forever family, by the time you hit 18 years old, even if you're in a foster home that you might have been domiciled for five years, but that family more often than not go, "Okay, you're 18. See you later." And they don't have ...Brad Crowell 20:20  Domiciled means actually living with family.Kelly Slattery 20:23  Living within that home, within that family. But by the time they're 18, it's like, "Okay, sorry, but we're not kind of covering this anymore." I think some people quite sadly, foster because it's an income for them, versus wanting to really help a child ... Brad Crowell 20:40  So (Lesley: Yeah) while, so while the kids with the family that they're getting the families getting a check?Kelly Slattery 20:45  The family is. And by the way, it's it's a minuscule check, it's nothing that's going to be substantial. But if you are super low income, (Brad: mm-hmm) and, you know, maybe even disabled, sometimes, like, you know, it's extra income for them. And, (Brad: mm-hmm) and I've met people that were super low income and not necessarily physically capable, who are incredible foster parents, you know, (Brad: sure, sure) so it's not to say that that's always the case.Brad Crowell 21:10  Yeah, yeah, I don't want to paint a bad light, but that there is (Kelly: Yeah, not at all) there there is, you know, some ...Lesley Logan 21:15  But the way the system (Brad: room) works, when they turn 18, no matter, no matter, like, you know, unless the person that is with them is able to afford to keep taking care of them and has the space, they're going to age out because they're no (Kelly: Yeah) longer being supported by the system.Brad Crowell 21:29  Yeah, I guess that's, that's fair. I mean, it may simply be a matter of finances as well, maybe they cannot continue to afford to support them.Kelly Slattery 21:37  Well, that's the there you go, you know, there's a plethora of reasons. And so it's when you age out that the state does give the child some money, depending on the state is how much money they're going to give them. They do have healthcare till their, you know, 25, they do have, you know, a train ticket or bus pass or whatever. But think about, what is it maybe $1,000 that they get a month, you're 18 years old? Think about, you know, yes, our generation also, we, if you had parents, we felt very capable of leaving the house at that time, we also knew we had this amazing safety net behind us. These kids do not, (Lesley: Yeah) not at all. So so yeah, so we, we want to help kids, we want to encourage people to be open to learning about Kidssafe, which is you go in the weekends, you meet these kids, you play board games with them, make vision boards, get to know who they are. And you might even feel inspired and think I think I could be that child's parent, you know, and that's what those meetings are about. Kidsave actually has a Emmy winning documentary on A & E that we were actually featured in, but the process of adopting. And it's really, really interesting, some kids get adopted, some kids don't. But part of what we want to do at Barely Canadian is if you don't find your forever home with the family, it doesn't mean you can't create your own forever home. And so we want to help with that. Hence, our fosterpreneur program that we're developing. Here's how you can do it on your own. You know, you don't have to bank on other people, right, kind of coming back to that if you don't have the family to bank on, bank on yourself, and still always bank on yourself. (Lesley: Yeah)Marisa Polvino 23:09  Always think that yourself. (Lesley: Yeah, Marisa ...) I think what's interesting, just to add on that is, you know, these kids in foster care, they have a staff of people, you know, they have their casa, they have their social worker, they have their therapists, (Kelly: attorney) their attorneys, they have a whole staff, (Brad: Wow!) but they don't have a person, (Kelly: Right) like who's that person that's in their life, that is without economic gain. Right? Who's that person that's not there to get the paycheck to be there for that kid? And where's the community around that child or those groups of children that can give them the love, the self worth, the community, the skill set, so that when they do age out, they have a shot out there. And they are not then repurposing the foster care system because a lot of these kids that don't have that come out with substance abuse problems, they're teen mothers, those kids go back into the foster care system. And so it's a vicious cycle. So getting these kids like through this fosterpreneural program, giving them the skill set, and the self value, the self worth to actually follow a dream, see it through and create a life for themselves outside of a system is a real huge goal. And we think what we can do as just individuals want a couple of people providing this, this life for kids outside of a system to give them something so much more than living off of a system that's not really there to support them.Kelly Slattery 24:39  And to kind of piggyback on that, just that we're just learning ecommerce. We're just figuring this out, and it's new to us. So, I think there's value to that when teaching a young person, you know, gosh, I'm you know, how much older than you and I'm just learning this you're young with a fresh mind. You grew up with technology. So also kind of like I think adults show that vulnerability like we're just figuring this out too. And I think (Marisa: Yeah) it's a great way for anyways has been a great with for my kids to learn, you know, as Marisa knows them well. Just seeing how they've found growth and knowledge through this process.Lesley Logan 25:11  I think you're 100% correct there, because so many times I work with people, and they're like, "Well, who am I to teach? So and so I'm just started." And it's like, you just have to be one step ahead. And, (Lesley laughs) you know, like, you don't, you know, like, um, this one woman I listened to on a podcast, I can't I can't remember which episode it was... But she said, "If you want to learn the piano, you're not gonna hire Billy Joel to teach you." Right? Like, you're gonna hire someone who knows the key, like the first few keys, like, that's who's gonna teach you and then you'll, you know, like, have an either they'll grow and you grow with them? Or do you find the next one, but like, I think, I think that vulnerability is so great for kids to see and also see that like, not everyone knows everything. And the people doing it are often making big guesses. And so it kind of allows them, maybe it ditches imposter syndrome, or allows them to see possibility, I think that's really cool.Kelly Slattery 26:03  Yeah, and it's funny, you should say that too, because it's also fun to do things together. So even though what will be a little bit step ahead, when you have somebody doing it with you, it feels safer, it feels like you have that team, you have that support. And that's something I'm really enjoying, with Marisa wanting to get involved in the company. You know, it's, it's, it's fun to bounce something off somebody, and it's fun to have that support. And also even, you know, adults tend to be, parents tend to be accountability coaches. So that's the other thing that you kind of offer when you're when you're teaching a young person. So but yeah, we're, we're, we're excited. We're building this out, and we're pumped, and we can't wait to talk to you guys more about it as well, knowing that you also do business coaching, you (Lesley: Yeah) know, in a really, really unique way.Brad Crowell 26:49  Before we get into the fosterpreneur concept, which I think is really exciting. And I can't wait to hear more about the the adoption or the excitement of the customers looking at Barely Canadian. Do you think that the social aspect of the company as a whole and the story behind it are what are lighting people up? Or is it really like the sweaters are just that amazing? Or is it a combination of both?Kelly Slattery 27:22  I, okay, first of all, when people feel our product, they literally go, "Oh my God, this is so soft, relevant, soft and cozy, and the feeling of home." Right? Because we're all about finding forever home. So it's all about feeling at home. But I definitely think that our kind of unique proposition as it were, is that we are in fact, an authentic story. I mean, we we started this to teach the kids, we really are a foster adopt family. You know, coincidentally, Marisa is doing this documentary on foster care and learning so much about it. That she's she's feeling fired up. So, I think when we, I do think when we share the story of how we came to be, why we came to be which, if I might make mention, we're Barely Canadian, because I am always freezing this I kind of intimated off the top. But additionally, my husband was like you are, we just need to make you some summer mittens, summer sweaters for California summer, because (Brad laughs) you just cannot handle it. And that was that's our first product are these super soft sweaters and super soft mittens that Lesley was wearing. And she gave us this great line. She was like, "I've been smitten." You know and (Lesley, Marisa and Kelly laughs) "we're starting to use that. I love it." (Brad: That's funny.) But but I think all of those really authentic pieces make a difference that that is what makes us stand out. So in answer to your question, I think it is definitely those pieces folded in and presented in the package of real and heart directed, which is would you agree, Marissa?Marisa Polvino 28:50  Absolutely. Absolutely. I think you know, in talking about a crowded marketplace, like you know, there's a brand that continues to come up every time I'm not going to give them any kind of nod on this because it's all about Barely Canadian. But you know, there's the brands that come up and there's the cops. Like, well, is it this? Or does it fit like that? Or, (Brad: sure) you know, how much of it is sustainable? And there's, you know, all the things that come up and it's like we can, we are our brand. The it's super soft. It's very comfy. We're giving back to foster youth. We love it. You're gonna love it and it's for everybody. There's not just one demographic that's being targeted. Everybody wants to feel soft and cozy and warm and feel like family. (Lesley: Yeah) What the brand is all about.Lesley Logan 29:35  Your sweatshirts are unisexy. Correct? (Marisa: It's unisexy.) (Brad: Yeah, they are.) (Lesley and Brad laughs)Marisa Polvino 29:40  And luckily, it's okay for boys to wear rainbows today. (Lesley: Yeah.)Brad Crowell 29:45  So when, when I, when I first saw Barely Canadian, it was through I think an email or maybe it was a post by Stasia and I just clicked it and open it and I saw you know that you were I think I don't know if she was too talking about you or somehow I knew you were involved Kelly. And, and I just opened up your Instagram and I was looking at it. And I was like, "This is so cool," you know, and I was really connected to the colors of it. And I, you know, I saved it and I showed it to Lesley. And it wasn't for like another month that I actually looked at your website. And when I went to the website, I didn't actually know any of the story. And, and I, I started reading a little more, and I and I started to understand like, Oh, wow, it's, it says, it's almost as if the, the profit of it is was like the last thing. It wasn't driven by this idea of like, "I'm gonna start a business so I could go make money." Like it wasn't, it doesn't come across that way. And that was really interesting to me, as an entrepreneur who I've started, like, a lot of businesses to do exactly that. And and this was, was really a surprise. And then the more I started understanding, I thought what a cool example for, you know, some kids plus, you know, what a cool project to have with them. Because it made me then begin to wonder like, "Who built the website? Was it you or was it the kids?" Or like, "Who wrote the copy? Was it them?" Like, "Who picks the products? Was it them?" Obviously, they're in like the photos and they're trying the things on. I thought, "Man, this is a really interesting journey." And I think it's really amazing, you know, and when we got the products, I was like, "Okay, (Kelly laughs) alright, this is cool."Kelly Slattery 31:27  I love that observation, because I hadn't framed it that way before. But that is exactly how it happened. So I just love that. You're kind of helping us even understand what you're right. We kind of went backwards, right? We started with "Let's do this for the kids. We want to do something for the kids. Oh, right now, this is a business. How cool is that?" You know, and so no, I love that. I really appreciate that insight. You guys are very good at perspective, (Lesley laughs) marketing and cool things like the smittens. (Lesley: Yeah)Marisa Polvino 31:59  I think also like do the, you know, this is a new thing, as you're talking just about being being an entrepreneur. Right? And trying a lot of different businesses. I think a part of one is like, figuring out what is our competitive edge? We don't know. So it is, it's about trial and error, and getting products and maybe, you know, the rainbow on the back of this sweatshirt isn't big enough. So yesterday we were together. And how can we like augment, like turns into lemonade, right? It's not perfect, but let's make it, let's add to it. That just enhances kind of what our messaging is. Let's take it and evolve it and learn as we go. And we're like, "Oh, next time. We'll, we'll do it this way." But by the but then maybe the zippers won't be right. So then (Lesley: Well, so ...) figure out how to make the zippers right. And the whole thing is a good entrepreneur and building the business. It's like, shits gonna go wrong (Brad: Yeah) and have to pick up and roll roll with it and figure out how to make it right.Brad Crowell 32:55  And now you got a hundred sweaters that have the thing wrong. You're like, "Oh my God, what do we do with all these? We put the money in, we got to get rid of them somehow." (Marisa laughs) (Marisa: Yeah) Like, yeah, it's a journey.Lesley Logan 33:03  Yeah, I mean, we've we've gotten to the... what we do create product. And it's always, it's an interesting process, I'll say, but we around here like to say, "Perfect is Boring." And like all of our (Marisa laughs) all of our merch that says that people look at it weird because it's on backwards. And I was at the TSA (Lesley laughs) and I was like showing the guy my ID and he's like, looking at me and like, you never want the TSA guy to look at you funny. Like, that's not a good time. (Marisa laughs) And I was like, well, he goes, "What is your hat say?" And I was like, "Oh, it's like, perfect is boring, dude you had me scared." (Lesley laughs) It's like, "Oh my God, I'm getting pulled into a room." (Marisa: Yeah) Um, but but we say that be I say that because like, the rainbow might not be perfect. But like, is there a perfect rainbow? No, like, all the rainbows are different like, and I do think you know, what I love what you're talking about. I hope everyone who's listening is hearing this, they didn't actually have all of the plans in place. They're like, we love helping this group of people. We want to create something that helps this group of people. And we like soft things. So this is what we're gonna start with. And so like ... (Marisa laughs) I think ...Kelly Slattery 34:06  It's exactly it. (Kelly laughs) (Lesley: I think ...) (Marisa: And I'm always cold.)Lesley Logan 34:09  Yeah. You know, I've been wearing my spins around the house. And (Lesley laughs) I'm like, I'm like, "This is perfect because it's a Vegas house." It's either it's too cold, it's too cold. You have AC on or now it's, you know, 40 degrees outside. So, but I think people get stuck on why have to have it all figured out. I have to make sure I have all the things in place. And like, more now more than ever, I think it's actually just about getting started and, and putting the thing out there and hearing what the questions are because then you hear people go, well, you know, like, what's your, what's this is like this and then you can like, however you argue back or whatever you say back helps you identify another answer.Kelly Slattery 34:48  Yeah, no, it's so true. It's so true. And then it's funny because when we do introduce Kidsave and Echoes Of Hope to other organizations or companies like your incredible company, both of your companies and your multiple companies. It people are inspired and they want to get behind it, you guys made an actual substantial donation. You know, in December, it was really incredible. And so for us, that was our big we'd been alive for all of three months, we kicked off end of September, I had some serious health issues in October. And, and then, and then by December, we were able to donate to both, you know, nonprofits (Brad: Wow!) and but but but that was just one piece of it. But then you guys did this massive surprise of like, "What Kidsave? What oh Echos?" And giving these donations anyways, that that that those are the those the fields, that's what it's all about for us, you know. So you're right, when you're leading with, with with the heart, when you're leading with the true messaging purpose, and derivative of why this all began, that's when you'll always win. It's almost like when you're writing. Like in television, you have that log line. That log line is so hard to do, right? It's such a hard succinct thing to really pack everything into a sentence or two ...Brad Crowell 36:03  Yeah. As was I say for Tracy out there. (Lesley: I know ...) (Lesley laughs) I'm stealing, I'm stealing (Lesley: It's from Smartlace) from Smartlace here. (Lesley: for Tracy in Milwaukee) Explain to us what a logline is.Kelly Slattery 36:13  All right, let's talk to Tracy .... (Marisa: Let's talk Tracy Milwaukee. What do you want ...) Yeah. What's up Milwaukee? (Brad and Lesley laughs) As you're, as you're going along, it's always go back. What is that logline, you can't completely depart from that. And that's similar to if it's all about the heart, it's all about doing something that makes you feel like you're doing something right in this world. Stick with that, you know, always make certain you stay at the core of it. That's what is the goal because ...Brad Crowell 36:36  I think we would call our our listeners probably be more familiar with an elevator pitch where it's like, you know, (Marisa: Right) how do you explain it in one or two sentences?Lesley Logan 36:46  (Kelly: Right, right. Yeah and it's true.) I want it. So Marisa, you're working on a documentary? Is that how you got attracted to this particular cause? Or like, because I think, you know, you saw this and you're like, "I'm jumping on board with that." And I, and I want to point that out, because I do think sometimes people maybe don't know how to get become part of something. And so I want to kind of go into that, like, how did you go, "Okay, Kelly, I'm in." (Lesley laughs)Marisa Polvino 37:15  Um, well, one in terms of foster care in, in general, I've been watching Kelly and have gone to some of the fundraisers. And I've also been with her through this process of her adopting both of these kids. And it's really incredible, what, what it takes to become a foster parent. How, how much and how difficult if they don't make it easy. Right? And these kids are also coming from a place of trauma. And, and, in taking that in and taking that on is something really incredible. I think like I honor Kelly for creating such a beautiful warm home for both of these kids. And I think she's created that kind of a home for everybody that's in her life, right? She's has just the widest network and the most incredible group of friends and family and loved ones and created family that that surrounds her. So I've always been inspired by her. I mean Kelly changed my life and I know you (Marisa: Yeah, me too) know that. But you literally took me down a different path because of a text message from like, after like a year later, after we had met. Changed, literally, that's like a very defining moment ...I kind believe that. (Kelly: I love connecting. I love it.) Yeah, she's, she's really a wonderful, beautiful, powerful spirit. And we've been for years wanting to work on something. And it has always been in the film side and the content side. (Lesley: Yeah) Let's find a project to do together. And we have some projects that we've been dancing around for a really long time. And so just this the opportunity for Barely Canadian, you know, just to be with her and to help her I mean, started off with like, "Hey, let me just help you. I want to come help sell... sell a sweatshirts. And I love these, I want to promote it." And, and I'd also been thinking like, "What, what do I want to do ... in two years, three years in the making?" And of like, "What do I want to do in addition to being a filmmaker? I want to do something. I don't know what it is. I have all these skill sets. What do I want to do with it?" And when this popped up, it just was something that felt right. It felt something like I'm just just soulfully, naturally, authentically felt like something I wanted to become a part of. And we had already had this friendship and a shared vision and love of have the similar similar things, similar people. So that was an easy thing. In terms of making a film about foster care is. It's an overall series about the systemic issues that are contributing to the mental health crisis of our (Lesley: Yeah) youth today. And so we've already done two films. One of them was, "Have you, have the education system?" And the other one was "The pharmaceutical drug industry and the overprescribing of drugs for our youth today." And then, because of what Kelly was doing in foster care, we were like the foster care system is such a broken system. And it's a view of like, "What are we doing to our kids? (Lesley: Yeah) And how can we tell a story through the voice of a child," because all of these films are through the voice of kids, to let them share their experience and give them a voice, empower them to take control of their destinies. And so I think it all like I think everything was very symbiotic because that's the right word. (Brad: Right) (Lesley: Yeah) Like, is it all synergistic in terms of how it all happened. Lesley Logan 40:47  But I also just want to point out, in case someone, like, missed it. She'd been looking for something for a couple of years, she was like, "What (Marisa: Yeah) else am I doing?" And I think we get stuck on I don't know the answer, I need, like, need to like, and you I'm sure you weren't sitting around twiddling your thumbs, you were working, you're making these films and you but you had this question in your mind, "What am I going to do? What am I going to do?" And so then, when this came up, your body was like, "This, this is, this sounds really good. This feels really good." Oh, so it happens to be really soft. So, I think I thank you for sharing that.Marisa Polvino 41:17  So it was also... Can I just add like, it was also like it this is for everybody, cuz it gets like it can, you can start pulling your hair out. Like, "I want to do. I don't know what I want to do. I have to do something." But it was also like, "I want it to be a product, like a physical product that I can get behind and sell like a product that people are going to want, a product that people are going to need, a product that they don't even know that they need that they want." And when this happened, I was like, "This is so weird." Like, this is actually the product and I never viewed it as, "Oh, this is the product." It just felt like, "Oh, my God, light bulb. Hello." This is what you've been putting out to the universe, (Lesley: Yeah) energetically.Lesley Logan 41:57  Yeah. That's I mean, and that's just it goes back to what Kelly's saying earlier. It's like, the path will find you. Like it's okay, it's like you're not focused on it 24/7. It's going to find you. I have got chills. Ladies, you guys are... Your lines are friggin' amazing in powerhouses. And I, I have I cannot believe that Barely Canadian is only from September, I feel like I'm like this been around like, I'm in. (Lesley laughs)Kelly Slattery 42:18  I know, it's it's ... (Marisa: ... summer line) Yeah, we, um, we launched in September, by October, Nov... No by November, we had like a winter line. (Brad: Yeah) Let's get into the next season real quick. (Brad laughs) And it's been, it just kind of happened really quickly. It was so organic. It's really everybody's reaction to the product is really and it's not just the product. It's the, I daresay community, because we don't have that yet. We're so new, you guys have built this gorgeous community, you know, and you guys are so authentic with what you're doing. And I can't say we have a community yet, but we have, there's just an energy when people get engaged with us. (Lesley: Yeah) (Brad: Sure) And what we want to do, they want to also you know, participate and and so it's not, when you buy one of our products that that helps you know, a kid find a forever home. And that's a wonderful thing. But it's kind of, I don't know, where I don't know how or why. And this isn't speaking very much to what you're trying to kind of touch on because, you know, you're trying to help people understand how to get to where they need to go. Right? And so, so just kind of letting it be and whatever it's going to become, I feel what it's going to become, I just can't name it yet, right. But I do hope it's the kind of community that you guys have. It's just so flush and full of heart and authenticity.Lesley Logan 43:35  I think that you actually just explained what I'm trying to help people do. So you're literally being it till you see it meaning, you're just being you're you're the love, you're the drive, you're the, you're the feeling you want people to have around you, you're already doing that and tell we see where this is going. So actually think you're exactly what I want people to hear, what exactly what I want people to see because sometimes it's not as easy as acting like a CEO, you know, sometimes as easy as acting like, you know, you are the business owner. Sometimes it is a little bit more complex, a little convoluted, but you have the passion, the story and the love. And you're you're literally just being all of those things to see what comes next. What comes next for Barely Canadian? What comes next for all these charities and these kids? And so I thank you for (Lesley laughs) for sharing that because like I said what I hear I don't know, Brad, what do you think?Brad Crowell 44:25  Yeah. Well, and also I think we haven't touched on the fosterprenuer bit. So I think we're gonna have to have you back on to dive into that a little more, you know, down the road. But you know, I think well, I'm going to ask Lesley's question here. We ask every guest this, if you were to give our listeners one or two BE IT action items. BE IT being bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted action items that you have been doing or that you have tips for them when you were starting this pro... you know, Barely Canadian. What would you offer them?Kelly Slattery 45:10  For me, be bold, is just be you, you know. You can't, you can't please everybody all the time, let alone every time, let alone any time. So do the best you can and be you. I always like to reference that, as I always put the great American poets Nikki - "You do you," you know. You do you, I mean, the most kind of perhaps ill equipped person to give life advice at that time when this girl (Lesley laughs) was on Jersey shores. But nonetheless, that is the most succinct way I could think of, you know, to how to live your life. But I would also say, you know, my dad always said, "The harder you work, the luckier you get." And that's what you tend to find, you know, in Canada, where we like to align ourselves with our great hero - Terry Fox, and you just kind of put your head down and work. And when you look up, you're often surprised what you built, you know, but just focus on what you're doing, put your head down and do the work. And every time you look up, you're going to be shocked, like, "Wow, and now we're here." This whole working thing, this diligence, this, just focusing on the task at hand really works.Lesley Logan 46:17  That's so true.Marisa Polvino 46:19  Love that. I love your snooky. Something that I think about often is this quote, "Fear Eats the Soul." And so I think a lot about that, because it can be really scary to start something new, and put yourself out there. And so I always put fear in the back in my back pocket. So that would be one thing I would say is, "Don't let fear guide you." It's a false narrative. Show up. That's the first step. Just show up. Show up for yourself and follow your gut. And stay true to your vision. Like persistence of vision is there and allow yourself to fall down, make mistakes, learn from, learn from the mistakes and just keep showing up every single day.Brad Crowell 47:05  I already feels like that's been happening with Barely Canadian in such a good way because of the way it's taking shape. It's really exciting.Lesley Logan 47:15  Yeah, and that's so beautiful. Just I mean like that, just like put your, put your stuff at the market, go to the thing, like get in the room like (Lesley laughs) (Kelly: Yeah) sometimes the universe ...Marisa Polvino 47:25  It's the people that show up, that win. Truly most people don't show up.Kelly Slattery 47:30  Yeah, just like buying a scratch and win. (Lesley and Kelly laughs)Lesley Logan 47:36  Oh my gosh. Ladies, okay, real quick. Where can people find you? On Instagram, it's @barelycanadian?Kelly Slattery 47:43  So at @barelycanadian on Instagram. I'm at @kellyslattery but really I just care about at @barelycanadian and then barelycanadian.com is our website. And if you happen to spell it with a bear instead of a bear so b e a r versus b a r e l y. Don't worry, you'll still land with us. We still will catch you. We got you. (Lesley laughs)Lesley Logan 48:04  Way to, way to grab the URLs. And Marisa, you're @marisapalvino at Instagram, on Instagram?Marisa Polvino 48:10  Yeah, in Instagram and at @straightupimpact.Lesley Logan 48:14  Okay, I'm with Brad we're having you back. We'll have to do the fosterpreneur and and just also here like what's going on because, um, y'all we are very much going to be involved with these women and what they're doing... I'm really, there's it's so many different passions and impacts I've wanted to make in this planet that you know, not always teaching Pilates can help. (Lesley laughs) So being involved in different ways and collaborating is huge and, and we'll share those things as they come up. But um, definitely take the, check out the links in the show notes. And check out Barely Canadian and grab yourself some smittens and a summer sweater and, and y'all until next time, Be It Till You See It.Marisa Polvino 48:51  Be It Till You See It. (Brad: Bye now.)Kelly Slattery 48:53  Be It Till You See It. Thank you.Marisa Polvino 48:55  Thank you so much. Bye.Lesley Logan 48:58  That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review. And follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcasts. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the @be_it_pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day!'Be It Till You See It' is a production of 'As The Crows Fly Media'.Brad Crowell 49:31  It's written produced, filmed and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell. Our Associate Producer is Amanda Frattarelli.Lesley Logan 49:42  Kevin Perez at Disenyo handles all of our audio editing.Brad Crowell 49:46  Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music. And our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.Lesley Logan 49:55  Special thanks to our designer Jaira Mandal for creating all of our visuals (which you can't see because this is a podcast) and our digital producer, Jay Pedroso for editing all video each week so you can.Brad Crowell 50:07  And to Angelina Herico for transcribing each of our episodes so you can find them on our website. And, finally to Meridith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time.Transcribed by https://otter.aiSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Dr. Kelly Bender is a California licensed Naturopathic Medical Doctor and she joined Lesley today to talk about moving to a new city, starting a business when you didn't know anyone, and listening with curiosity. Then they move on to being your own health advocate, taking stock of how you're feeling and how to take care of yourself.If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co .And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.In this episode you will learn about:Moving to a new cityStarting a businessBeing your own health advocateKnowing when things are offGoing to meetups in a new cityListening and being curiousPut things in your physical Environment that make you feel that happiness or desired stateFind the people in the room who are not like youShare your story with other people - celebrate where you've come from, your vulnerability allows others to see what's possibleTake stock of how you're feeling and see where there could be potential improvementA big part of health is your mental/emotional healthGet your body physically feeling like you want it to feelEpisode References/Links:Dr Kelly Bender's IGThe Four Tendencies by Gretchen RubinSapiens by Yuval Noah HarariBelieve It by Jamie Kern LimaPure Vitality Rejuvenation Center's websiteGuest Bio:Dr. Bender is a California licensed Naturopathic Medical Doctor. As a graduate of Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine, Dr. Bender is trained as an expert in natural medicine. After graduating summa cum laude with a Bachelor of Science in Pharmacology & Toxicology from the University at Buffalo and top of her class in medical school, she has continued her training in cutting edge therapies. Ketamine assisted therapy, regenerative medicine, bio-identical hormone replacement therapy and peptide therapy have been important additions to her practice to truly help individuals heal. She is passionate about helping individuals optimize their health so they can live their lives to the fullest. Dr. Bender believes it is important to understand the entire person in order to facilitate healing and offers each patient an individualized treatment plan to enhance their vitality. Dr. Bender enjoys teaching others, whether it be her patients or students at various medical schools. While she misses the fall weather back home in New York, she is happy to make Los Angeles her home.If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.ResourcesWatch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube!Lesley Logan websiteBe It Till You See It PodcastOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley LoganOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTubeProfitable PilatesSocial MediaInstagramFacebookTik TokLinkedIn Episode Transcript:Lesley Logan  Hey! Hey you, welcome back to the Be It Till You See It. I am in love with this podcast and I'm in love with all of your takeaways and just the DMs we're getting and the questions you're sending us. It is incredibly, it's an incredible honor but also just so much fun for me and for Brad to bring news to you every single week. Today's guest is Dr. Kelly Bender. Not only is she a dear friend of mine, but she is a woman who definitely saved my life, my health. And I wanted to bring her in because she is a wealth of knowledge. And she has an incredible Be It Till You See It story. So for those of you who have moved to a new place, or you feel like you're new in something, you don't know what you're doing, I definitely want you to listen to the parts where she talks about being new in a city and starting a business without any information because they don't teach you that in school, and, and more. And then for those of you who are like not thinking about starting a business, there's still so much information in here on being an advocate for yourself and knowing when things are off. And so I really just think you're gonna find so many different gemstones no matter where you are in your life right now. So please do me a huge favor when this is all over, check out Dr. Kelly Bender on Instagram. And if you have any takeaways screenshot this and share it and tag us both so that we can see that it really does help us get this show out and and you know, we get to have more fun with you and with all the listeners. So thank you and right after this message is Dr. Kelly Bender.Lesley Logan  Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast, where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guest will bring Bold, Executable, Intrinsic and Targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started.Lesley Logan  Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Kelly Bender, and everyone who is listening. I'm so excited for you to meet this woman. I mean, you're gonna meet her in your ears. But if you're watching this on YouTube, you get to see your face. Y'all, this woman came into my life at a time when I needed her the most. And then she ended up coming on a retreat, so we got to know each other really well. But I happen to be in search of B12 shots. And this is where there's divine appointments and serendipity. I had heard about a space at about a mile from where I lived from an old client and then literally the old client they were going out for dinner and we ran into Dr. Bender and it became this wonderful friendship and I have her here because not only does she have a great Be It story, but she also has some great tips on like, reasons why maybe we just don't feel like being it all the time. So, Dr. Kelly Bender can you share with everyone, who you are, what you're up to all the things?Kelly Bender  Yeah, thank you so much for having me, Lesley, I'm really excited to be here. I love our conversations and I'm really excited that we get to record our conversations and other people get to hear what we talk about. (Lesley: Oh, I know ...) I think that it's so much fun.Lesley Logan  This is like a secret way for me to know more information. I'm just ... (Lesley laughs)Kelly Bender  Exactly. I'm so yeah, I am a California licensed naturopathic medical doctor, which means we try to look at the whole person and find out really what's going on with people. Instead of just giving medications or other things, we really do a lot of detective work to see if we can figure out why people are not feeling their best. My practice is here in Brentwood, Los Angeles, California, we do a lot of different types of therapies and modalities to try to pe... to get people to be really healthy and happy and vital. We try to have your body heal itself. And so I'm really passionate about helping people understand their bodies. And really, you know, not just do something because somebody told you to do it. I really want people to understand what's going on so they can make their own decision of, "Yeah, I want to take this thing today. I want to eat this way today because I know how it's going to make me feel."Lesley Logan  I love that that's probably another reason why we're friends. It's like the same way that I teach Pilates is I want people to be autonomous and I want them to know why they're doing an exercise and I want them to feel confident in choosing not to do that exercise to do something else and so I think that's really cool. There are very few people in the medical industry like you who are trying to help people be more educated and make a decision and almost it's almost like you're trying to teach them to be an advocate for themselves in their process.Kelly Bender  100%. Being an advocate and and you know your body much better than I do. Right? I've got the schooling, I've got the education. And so you know, hopefully I can be a guide. But at the end of the day, you're not going to call me every day and say, I mean, you could, you could definitely call me every day and say, "Hey, I'm feeling a little tired today. I'm feeling a little sore today, what do I do?" but that's not empowering for anybody. And that gets really, really expensive if you're going to do that. (Lesley laughs) So I would... I mean, "Hey, if you want to do that, I'm, I'm here. I'm happy to." But but I really want to empower people to understand and be intuitive with their body so that they can have an arsenal of all the different things and decide when they need to use them.Lesley Logan  Yeah, well, and also, I mean, expensive too and almost overwhelming. Like, you might, you might think this is really nice. And you want to check in with your, with your doctor every day. But then like, you might have that rebellion. But it's like if you know, the four tendencies, it's an obliger-rebellion, when like, you're just like, "I'm over this." And so I think, (Kelly: Right) so much better to have the tools to do your own journaling, doing your own tracking, and then do check ins and tweaks when you feel like something is off. And so while it I wasn't off, and then I want to get into how you got started. How, like, what is the best way to give people the confidence or just feel okay with sometimes you might think something's off and then we are we tend to talk ourselves out of it, we tend to like excuse that off feeling like, "Oh, I just ate something bad" or "Oh, I just had a bad night's sleep" or, you know what I mean? Like, when is it that something is off? And when is it that we are? I don't know if I if you understand the question, I'm saying, but do you I mean?Kelly Bender  I do. Yeah, as humans. Okay, so there's this old adage of boiling a frog, right? So how do you boil a frog, if you put a frog in hot water, it will jump out. But if you put it in cold water, and you slowly turn up the temperature, it will just become complacent and say, "Oh, this is warm, this is warm, this is warm" to the point where it's boiling. And as humans, we we do that, right? We are adaptable, that's one of the strengths that we have as a species is we are really highly adaptable. And so oftentimes, you know, it's a slow, slippery slope to "Oh, I had, you know, I had some gas one day, but you know, it's just because I ate a lot of vegetables." And then, you know, you have diarrhea for a few days that "Oh, you know, it's because I was stressed," and then you've constipation for a few days. And it's, "Oh, it's because I was traveling." And then before you know it, it's six months down the down the line, and you haven't had a normal bowel movement for six months. Right? And so I think there is this fine line, and maybe it's not so fine. But there's definitely a line between being overly conscientious and overly anxious about our health where, yeah, you know, we all have days where we're a little ga... more gassy, we all have days, where, you know, things are a little bit more sluggish, or we're a little more tired. So just keeping track of it. And more than anything, if you can, if you can kind of get in touch with your body. I think a lot of times we're just show disconnected, we're still in our brain, right? And so you're thinking, you know, we go on WebMD, and you're thinking and it's all up here, right? It's like, "Oh, man," you know, fatigue and, and, you know, constipation and acid reflux, and you go and you're thinking about all the things that could be wrong. (Lesley: Right) More so I would say, sit with yourself, as opposed to looking externally, sit with yourself and say, "Okay, is this a feeling that I've had in the past? Did that feeling go away on it's own?" You know, "Is it just a temporary one day thing?" You know, "Does this feel abnormal to me," right? And so if it's a day or two, and it goes away, probably, you know, nothing to worry about. But if it's a day or two every week, then I would say, you know, track it a little bit. And if they're consistent, then something to pay attention to, but more than that, like really sit with your body and say, "Does this make sense? Why this is happening?" Oh, every time I eat dairy, I have friends who are lactose intolerant, and they still eat dairy all the time. And then ...Lesley Logan  ... remember to do that and I'm like, "You can't eat it. That's like that's why you feel the way you feel." (Lesley laughs)Kelly Bender  Right? Right. That's the way you feel the way that you feel. And so you know, and then they get confused because they're like, "Oh, well, I eat dairy, dairy is in everything" and then their stomach is just never good, good. (Lesley: Yeah.) And then and then something else is happening like they have dysbiosis or they have a food sensitivity. You know, stress can also impact your digestion, and so they get confused between, "Oh, I never feel good because I'm always eating dairy" versus something else is going on. So it kind of masks that symptom. So, in general, if you're electing to do something that makes you feel not as well, I would take a break from that every once in a while to let that go away and see really how you feel. Same thing with like drinking alcohol.Lesley Logan  That's a great, that's actually really something anyone can do. You're not it's not like we're saying, do an elimination diet, it's like, the thing that makes you not feel so good, stop doing it and to see like what your baseline is, and, and you know, and what, and then you can be really in tune. And I just think, what I love that the common thread there is like, how are you feeling and what's normal for you. And it makes sense, because there really is no one size fits all what I love so much about interviewing different, amazing people like yourself is every time I ask them at the end, we'll and we'll ask you later, like, what are your steps to be in it, no one is repeating the same thing. So like, we're all so different. (Kelly: Yeah) And that means our health is going to be very unique. And so what feels normal to you and is going to be different, I want to take a step back to you starting this practice, because it's not easy to start any business. And if you you don't have like this, like bank account that's just rolling you through. It's very scary, and not only to do sort a new practice. But it's also very unique practice, because it's not something that you see everywhere. But you also started in a new city. And so I think a lot of people listening might be afraid to start something new and that they have the excuse. Well, "I'm new here. I don't know anyone," like I just really want them to hear your story. So, how did you get your practice going?Kelly Bender  Yeah, so um, I really believe in, you were talking about like, you know, divine (Lesley: appointments) interventions or divine appointments. And, you know, I'm I'm a planner, I am a I am a builder, I'm a designer. And throughout medical school for four years, I was designing what I thought was going to be my life, my practice, what I was going to do, and I will tell you right now, none of it happened that way. (Lesley laughs) 0%, 0%, and I'm so glad, I am so glad that it happened the way that it happened. And it turned out even better than I planned. Right? So, medical school - shocker - you don't learn how to run a business (Lesley: No) in medical school. Right?Lesley Logan  No. So, why teachers don't either fitness instructors or either lawyers, either. I'm like, "I don't even know (Kelly: No) what people are going to school for." Because they don't actually why they can't be, it's why a lot of people aren't successful in those things. And it's, or they have imposter syndrome, because how you don't know what you don't know.Kelly Bender  You don't know what you don't know. And and you know, enough in medical school to to be scared. Because you know, when medicine there's a lot of liability, right? There's a lot of rules of what you can and cannot do. So so go back to 2013, I originally wanted to work for a nonprofit. I started a nonprofit when I was in medical school. We did free care for people like low income people in the States. And we also have clinics in Mexico, Haiti and Thailand. And so (Lesley: Cool) I that's what I, yeah, so that's what I thought I was going to do my whole four years of medical school, that was the plan. And then I realized in my fourth year how much debt I was going to have and how much I needed to pay every month to be able to pay that off. And working for a nonprofit was not a good option at that point. So, I quickly pivoted and decided to move to LA, because why not? My brother lived here and I had come out to visit. I'm originally from New York. And so I knew that I wanted to try something different. I knew I didn't want to go back to the cold weather. And I figured I'll give it a try. If I don't like it, I can always move again. So, so I moved out to California, I moved out to Los Angeles without really knowing anyone, anyone and decided to start a business. So I found a little office space to rent and I read a lot of books and I read a lot of blogs and I watched a lot of YouTube videos on how to set up a corporation and I was sitting in this little bedroom that I rented out in a house with this this older lady and I remember like sitting on my bed, filling out the fictitious business paperwork and feeling anxious. Am I doing this right? I don't have money to pay for a lawyer. You know, (Lesely: Oh) if I do this wrong, what's going to happen?Lesley Logan  I um completely understand, and I love the visual of you sitting in a little office just like watching YouTube videos on how to do this. Because that's, I mean, like, a lot of people might be like, "I want to get started," honestly, that's what we that's what everyone gets started and everyone is like, "Am I doing this right? I don't know, I can't afford a lawyer to look this over." Sure, hope so I remember I got a letter in the mail from LA. They're like, "We can see you're doing business here. So here's what you owe us in taxes." I was like, "Oh, well, thanks for letting me know. Not a problem. Here's a check." I was like, "Thank God, they did ..." So they don't arrest you, but they will (Kelly: Yeah) send you a bill. (Lesley laughs)Kelly Bender  Right. And usually, there's some late fees associated (Lesley: Yeah) (Lesley laughs) with, you know, much cheaper than (Lesley: My lawyer, yeah) otherwise, that could turn out much cheaper than a lawyer, much cheaper than a lawyer. Yeah, it's like, "Okay, great. I'll..." And you know, most places where people open businesses, they want you to be successful, right? You're, you're part of the economy, you're driving, you know, you're driving the economy. So they want to get their money because their business too, but usually, they'll they'll work with you. And they'll let you know, like, "Hey, this is how you were supposed to do it. You're delinquent, you have to pay us some extra money. But like, here's how to do it right." And so, yeah, when I first got to LA, man, what it is like, what a different world from the East Coast where I grew up from Arizona, which is where I did my medical school. So I came out here and knew almost no one, set up my business, didn't know what I was doing from a business standpoint, you know, had to figure it out pretty much on my own. I didn't have business mentors, I didn't grow up around people who owned their own businesses. It was not part of my, my culture, it was not part of anything I'd ever seen done before. And so honestly, one of the things that I did that was the most helpful was I started going to meetups, five or six nights a week, when I first moved to LA, this was, you know, pre COVID, obviously. So ...Lesley Logan  Yeah, something went possible, but I (Kelly: Yeah) so I love this part of you, getting out there, getting to know, getting to get your business started was like getting just going to places to, just finding places you could immerse yourself, (Kelly: Yeah) which is super scary. So, what did you tell yourself before you walk into these rooms?Kelly Bender  It's so interesting. So, I specifically went to meetups that were not medical related. So most of the people I knew who were doctors, they went to all these medical ones to network with other medical professionals, there was like, first of all, I want to friends who are not doctors. Second of all, I like you're not going to become my patients, your doctors. And third, I actually went to a lot of one of them that were like business oriented, because I was like, "I need friends or people who are in business to help me learn how to do this." And so, you know, I would I would psych myself up. And I this is not a thing that I love to do. So I really, you know, there was a lot of anxiety before everyone, but I was like, you know, what's the worst that can happen? That's what I would tell myself, "What's the worst that can happen? You're going to go, you're going to meet some interesting people. And if you don't like them, you never have to see them again." So that's the nice thing about meetups is everybody is there to network. So different than going to a bar or something like that, like, everyone knows that's the deal. So you go up and you tell your story, and you hand out business cards. Um ...Lesley Logan  How did you (Kelly: and it was ...) introduce yourself? Because I feel like this is like where I could ultimate Be It moment could be because you didn't have like a thriving practice at this point yet you were filling (Kelly: I know) out forms. So, how, what was the introduction that you gave?Kelly Bender  Yeah, so most of the time, like I said, I was the only doctor there. I remember really specifically going to these tech startups, because I love technology. And I was like, "Oh, these people don't know anything about health." They're, you know, a bunch of guys most of the time. And I know this is a stereotype but it's true. A bunch of men in a room eating like cheetos and drinking soda, right? (Lesley: Yeah) And so, and now they're the people who have money, right? (Lesley: Yeah) Who can afford kind of like alternative care. And so I would go to these a lot of these types of meetings. And listen, that is that is the most important thing. Most people go into these situations, and they're just focused on getting other people to know what they do. Right? So everyone is talking past each other because everyone's primary goal is to download my information to you. Right? And so I just went in and I listened and I was curious. Those I think are the two big things for me was was listening and being curious. And then I would say, "Oh, that's you know, that's really interesting. You do X, Y or Z. Have you ever considered this thing over here?" And I would just ask really interesting questions about them or their work. And then people got interested in me. Right? Then they would say, "Oh my gosh, that's such a great question. No one's ever asked me that question before. What do you do? Are you a CEO? Are you a venture capitalist? What do you do?" And I would just sit there and say, "I'm a doctor." Mind blown! (Lesley laughs) Every single one of them, they were like, "Whoa, okay, like, tell me about what you ..." and then and then they were really engaged. Right? ... that that was the way ...Lesley Logan  This is so cool. I hope you're all hearing this. This is if you have anxiety in rooms, if you are wearing an introvert flag, if you are wearing the shy flag, like here, she didn't, she actually went and listened, which is some, it's actually, it's not actually easier to do, but it's definitely less anxiety producing and then you got curious. And then and then because of that, they're super intrigued by you, which is like the best thing and building relationships. And so ... (Kelly: Totally) how so how many meetups did you go to? Like, how many? Or do you still go to them.Kelly Bender  So, I stopped probably after about a year and a half, or maybe about a year, I was going to no lie five or six a week, and a lot of them are the same. So, I would go you know, every month or so and kind of keep up with some of the same people. And they you know, would become patient or they would become friends. A lot of the friends that I have here in LA are from these, these meetups, you know from eight, nine years ago. And so it helped me build a build a network, it helped me build friends. And, and it helped me build my business acumen. I consult so part of, you know, I have my medical practice, but I also do a lot of consulting with businesses from the medical side. So, I will be the medical expert, if somebody wants to start any sort of medical type business. And I also consult with doctors and clinics, in how to set up their business and set up their operations. So, I have become kind of this bridge.Lesley Logan  Yeah, you also (Kelly: between the two) have, it's like the ultimate Be It, like you were acting as if, like so you're doing all the things to start a business, then you (Kelly: Yeah) change your environment many times because you move but also like you change people you surround yourself with. And then you and now you are literally being the consultant, being the guy, being the thing to everyone else and in your industry, and then also people who want to have a part with your industry, that is so cool. It's like no stopping it. So, okay, um, this, this is really interesting. Um, I want to go to the, the the be... changing your environment up, because I do think that that is where a lot of people get stuck, you know, especially if you're like, "Well, Lesley and Kelly, I can't move. I can't move to LA, (Kelly: right) how do I do this?" So for the person who's like, not able to physically move to change their environment, what are some tips you have for them to change the surroundings that they're in to be able to not just be a bridge, but to be it and to get get connected with more people?Kelly Bender  Yeah, so I mean, there's, there's different pieces to your environment, I personally find space, like the environment that I'm in, in my home, at my office to be really important and impactful for me. So even if you're just kind of moving things around, or getting lovely plants ... from my plant ...Lesley Logan  If you're watching us on YouTube, you will have to see all the plants, I mean, her plant game is strong.Kelly Bender  It makes me so happy, honestly. So, you know, one of the big things that I tell people you know, the Be It Till You See It kind of thing is, "Putting things in your physical environment that make you feel happy, or that make you feel that desired state." So one of the things is I I've got, you know, I've got my plants, I've got my crystals, you know, I've got all of the things that kind of just make me feel like, I'm that person. And one of the biggest things that changed. I had some money mindset stuff. You know, being a doctor, being a care provider, I just like giving care for free, right? Like, I just wish I could give care for free. It makes me feel so good. But that's not a sustainable business model. (Lesley laughs) And so, so what I did when I wanted to change how I felt about money was I took two $100 bills and put it I have this little kind of seashell type thing that I put them in with with my amethyst from when I was little on top of it. And it's right over here where I do my work and I just have it there and it's like, you know, money's around, money is available if I need if I need a hundred bucks, I could grab it from there. Right? I don't, because I'm just putting it there. But physically putting the things in your space to remind you of what you want to grow and what you want to focus on, I think is really important. (Lesley: Oh, I love this.) Yeah. And then absolutely, like, changing, not changing, but adding people to your, to your environment, to your to your friends group, find the people who are not like you. That's, that's what I would say, a lot of times, we tend to, you know, be friends with the people that are very similar to us, because they reinforce our, our beliefs, and you know, it makes us feel good about ourselves. But I would, I would encourage you to find people who are very different from you, because they're going to have life experiences, and they're going to have skill sets that are complimentary to yours that you might, that you might need, or you might benefit from. I started working with very, very, very, very high net worth individuals, and completely changed how I saw life, how I, how I saw my own, like how I run my household, just seeing how people run their household, how they run staff, helped me understand what was possible.Lesley Logan  I couldn't agree more. Having moved, I've definitely, environment change, but also like building new relationships out here. And it's a little tricky in a COVID world. So really, our life in Las Vegas started April 2021. We're like, "Okay, we're going out, we're excited (Kelly: yeah) about this, we're going to meet people," but I've been really conscious of meeting people that I normally wouldn't meet, that I nor.... that I normally wouldn't have a reason to connect with. And that is does take effort, but I think it is so important. I also having been from a family that was not entrepreneurial like me, not that they weren't, there just wasn't anyone own their own business, you know, in my immediate family. For me to learn from to see that was possible, having clients in LA who do have that high net worth, you hear what they stress about, which was not what I was stressing about, you hear it like, "And there's some good and bad things, they don't do everything, you don't need to assume all of their behaviors," but you do see possibilities and I and that I'm grateful for the time I had in LA, because literally you learn that you can just create money because or that money is all around because people just find it. And they the people who are creating businesses, there aren't like going, "Oh, you pull my savings." They're like, "Oh, no, I'm raising money for this." And you're like, "You can raise like, people just give money for things?" Like ... (Lesley laughs)Kelly Bender  Right? What? (Lesley: Yeah) Yeah, I really do think, you know, one of the most important things, I think for the Be It Till You See It is sharing your story with other people. And so, you know, even if you don't think that you are where you want to be, right, sharing your story, either where you are, where you've been, is, is helpful for you to celebrate how much you've changed, or where you've come from, which I think is really important. And that vulnerability with other people, just like we're doing now it allows them to see what's possible. And then they share with you, you know, maybe I've had patients who are extremely successful in business, like, you know, financially really successful. And they, you know, they see that as a success, but they want to be more successful in let's say, their spiritual life or their mental emotional life. And, and so when I hear their stories of how they've worked through things from a business standpoint, I'm like, "Oh, that's how you do that." And then they hear my stories of how I worked through, you know, emotional things, or you know, family things or trauma that's happened. And they're like, "Oh, that's how you do that." (Lesley: Yeah) So it's, it's sharing with people who have all different experiences, I think is for me, the most important.Lesley Logan  Well, and you know, we the reason that the human humans as a species have evolved and survived is because of stories. And like if you read the book Sapiens, it's like this whole the ability to storyteller is how we survive tigers and holes. And then also we can share things. We can keep talking for hours, but I have to ask this one question before (Kelly: Yeah) we take a break. I want to because I'm sure people are going, "Okay." But we got this doctor on the show. Is there anything that we can be doing, supplements anything I know that you're we can't just prescribe things so we're not prescribing anything (Kelly: Yeah) but are there are there tips for people that they might want to pay attention to, that might be holding them back health wise from be it till they see it.Kelly Bender  Yeah, that's a that's a great question. So again, I would say, you know, take stock of how you're feeling and see, you know, where you think there could be some potential improvements, I would say a big, a big part of health is your mental emotional health. And especially with being it until you see it, you want to make sure you're in a really good mind state, right? They talk about like, these flow states, which flow state is basically like alpha brainwaves, it's actually how your brain is functioning. And so you know, doing meditation or journaling or breath work or something to physically get your body into that flow state. You know, get your body physically feeling like you want it to feel, even if you're like, "You know, I feel really good today," or getting up in the morning and doing a dance party and that, you know, I have so much energy, even on the days you don't have energy, right? It's okay, if you don't have energy, you don't have to push yourself or you know, pretend that you're some way but, but if you're like, "Okay, I'm gonna get up and I'm gonna, I'm gonna move my body and I'm gonna get into the mind state of, you know, I'm energized, I'm, I'm feeling strong," that will help your brain get into the, get into that loop or that pattern of, "I'm feeling good, I have energy," you know ...Lesley Logan  I love that it just kind of goes back to like just getting to know yourself and then also like, an even on the good days practicing it and not just the days that we need it like, that's, (Kelly: Yeah) that's the trick. (Lesley laughs)Kelly Bender  Yeah, and also so like smiling, even if you don't want to smile, right? Just our body remembers these cues. And so just smiling can actually change your your brain chemistry. So if you're not feeling really good, just go look in the mirror, and smile and work on gratitude and let that sink in. And that will actually change your biochemistry that will actually change your neuro chemistry. So, you know ...Lesley Logan  You know what I love about all this, none of it is taking anything like in, it is all things so you have the power of doing all of them are free things. All of them are ways to be in the state that you really are trying to be in all the time and so thank you for that. That's I love being surprised but also you know, it made me think of this one thing. Jamie Kern Lima's book "Believe It," she gave a tip of like giving people what you need. So, if you're needing like (Kelly: Yeah) someone to see you, make sure you look at people in the eye and smile at them and see them (Kelly: Yeah) so they're gonna do ... they're gonna see how and they're gonna smile right back, you know, or if you're (Kelly: Absolutely) if you're needing people to love you, give people love and you just this amazing reciprocity thing. So all right, Dr. Kelly Bender, where can people find you? How can they follow you? Become your friend, stalk you a little bit? Where do you hang out?Kelly Bender  Um, Kreation Cafe in Los Angeles. (Lesley laughs) I'm most most of the time you can probably find me there.Lesley Logan  Do you get the pumpkin bread?Kelly Bender  No, it has eggs in it.Lesley Logan  Oh, I don't think so, well, I get it's vegan. Check it out ...Kelly Bender  Well, I have to look at it. Okay, I have to get the vegan one ...Lesley Logan  Check it out because I get a vegan one because I can't do the eggs either. I get a vegan (Kelly: I know) and they have a paleo bread as well that (Kelly: Yeah) is egg free. So anyways,Kelly Bender  They they have a vegan gluten free brownie. (Lesley: Oh) It's the best thing ...Lesley Logan  With CBD in it by the way.Kelly Bender  They do have on the CBD. I don't get the one with CBD. (Lesley: Okay) But it is it is the best thing ever ... So ...Lesley Logan  It is like ... that they did ... it's really hard to do vegan gluten free brownies. (Kelly: I know) And they did a great job because it doesn't just crumble all over you. It's moist. It's gooey. (Kelly: Yeah) Anyways, they did not sponsor this podcast, but every time (Kelly laughs) I go to LA, I do go to Kreation and stock up and when my husband sees it in my purse, he just laughs (Lesley laughs)Kelly Bender  Yeah. Nailed it. So yes, most most days you'll probably find me there for some one of the one of my meals. But my clinic is in Brentwood, Los Angeles. It's called Pure Vitality Rejuvenation Center. The website is www.purevitalitycenter.com. So you can go and check us out on the website. We also have Instagram, which have been doing some more Instagram lives. I think I'm going to try and do an Instagram live every day for a week. (Lesley: Oh so fun.) Even if it's just like two or three minutes because Instagram keeps updating and every time I go to save the live to my role. Something else is different that I can't figure out how to do it. So I think I just need to you talk about you know (Lesley: Be It Till You See It ... I love it) Be It Till You See It ... I'm gonna be this Instagram, awesome person, and I'm gonna practice and practice and practice. And then hopefully by the end of the week, I'll actually be a professional at it.Lesley Logan  I love it. Yeah, I just have to say this, I have three Instagram handles, right and which is annoying. And here's what I hate the most is when one of them updates, but the other two don't. So currently on the @be_it_pod Instagram, where how I share my story is very different than how I did on the other two. And I'm like, "Alright, y'all, this is ..." (Kelly: no) I'm a I'm a native ada... a tech adapter, right? I am attack native, elder millennial (Kelly: yeah) right here, you (Kelly: yeah) can't give it to me, change them all at the same time. (Lesley laughs)Kelly Bender  Right, or just don't change them. I honestly just be two and a half minutes yesterday when I started my Instagram live, to figure out how to do it. So anyway, um, you can follow me on Instagram at @purelyvital p u r e l y v i t a l. I think I'm going to try to do that the next week or so. We'll see technically, you know, all the all the technical parts ...Lesley Logan  Well, we'll have all of these links in the show notes. Kreation, you'll just have to look up I don't want to actually stalking her. So okay, so I asked every guest this and you've given some great tips. So if you want to just recap them, that's totally fine. But I think it's really awesome to be inspired. But I actually think people need to take messy action because that's where clarity comes from. That's where anxiety is overridden. So bold, executable, intrinsic, targeted steps that people can do to be it till you see it, what are your favorite things to do?Kelly Bender  So the first thing is know yourself, honestly, I think for me, that's the most important piece. Also, do the things that you want to do. Don't wait till you have the money. Don't wait until you have the time. Because you'll never have what you want of both things. So you and I have our boozy spa days. And it's like, we just put it on the calendar. And we go and we do it. So do do the things that you want to do. And also, I would say be curious, be curious about yourself. Be curious about other people. Really, you know, try to look at the world through the you know, through the child's eyes, or you know, through the novice lens, because that's going to help you grow into what you want to be, but also help you see when you've become that.Lesley Logan  Oh, those are juicy. I love them. I'm ... excited. This is my favorite part of the podcast because I'm like, "Oh, I'm gonna try that one. That one's new for me." Dr. Kelly Bender, thank you for being here on the show. Everyone, thank you (Kelly: Thank you) so much for listening. Do us a humungous favor, screenshot this podcast right now. Tag pure, @purelyvital, and @be_it_pod and put your takeaway on here so that we can see what your favorite part of this show was. And do us a favor and make sure you share this with your friends that is how this podcasts gets out. That's how all podcasts get out. So if you love a podcast, you could share it every week. Don't worry, I will still love it. It will still feel fresh and new to me. So thank you so much and until next time, Be It Till You See It.Lesley Logan  That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review. And, follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcasts. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the @be_it_pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others BE IT TILL YOU SEE IT. Have an awesome day!Lesley Logan  'Be It Till You See It' is a production of 'As The Crows Fly Media'.Brad Crowell  It's written, produced, filmed and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell.Lesley Logan  Kevin and Bel at Disenyo handle all of our audio editing and some social media content.Brad Crowell  Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music. And our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.Lesley Logan  Special thanks to our designer Jaira Mandal for creating all of our visuals (which you can't see because this is a podcast) and our digital producer, Jay Pedroso for editing all the video each week so you can.Brad Crowell  And the Meridith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this week's episode, I interview Kelly Buck, a Dunstan Baby Language Educator and doula. She talks about the Dunstan Baby Language program and how it gives us a window into the first communicative interactions between baby and caregiver. From birth, babies make sounds that are reflex-based. When we understand what these sounds mean, we can respond to and interact with babies more confidently and effectively.   TRANSCRIPT: Sara: Hi, welcome to the Birth Words podcast. Today, I'm chatting with my friend and fellow doula Kelly Buck. Kelly is also a Dunstan Baby Language educator. And today on the podcast, I'm going to ask her more about the work she does with Dunstan Baby Language. So hi, Kelly, welcome to the podcast. Kelly: Hi, thank you for having me. Sara: It's great to have you. I'm going to just ask you a bit about your background with Dunstan Baby Language and the work that you're doing with that. So I'll jump into my first question. Kelly: Okay, sure! Sara: Great. So how did you find out about Dunstan Baby Language? Kelly: So, I learned about the program in 2008 when I had just given birth to my oldest. Sara: Oh, good. Kelly: Yes. And I was one of the rare cases of postpartum depression that happens almost immediately. Yeah, we’re talking, I was bawling in the recovery room. So and add to that, that my son was actually really colicky. And he had a lot of trouble latching. And I was just kind of like an emotional wreck. So, one day I was kind of I was on the phone with my mom. And she mentioned that she had seen the episode, an episode of Oprah where there was this lady that said she could understand why babies cry and I was like, okay, maybe I will look this up. Sara: Yeah. Kelly: Yeah. So that led me to looking up the video on YouTube and learning more about Patricia Dunstan and her programs. So at the time, you could only order the program online for DVDs. And so I did. And I'm telling you, it was a game changer for me. It was amazing. My husband and I both listened to it and we were just like this is… this is working! We tried it with with our son and he seemed to calm down. I still had a little bit of the depression, but I felt like I could at least care for my son, you know, do what he needed. So that I could, I could do that. And so I started like lending out all my DVDs telling my friends who were pregnant or who just had babies and I guess you could kind of say that new learning about Dunstan Baby Language actually kind of sort of paved the way for me to becoming a doula because I love talking about birth and babies and how just how much it did for me, specifically for my postpartum depression. So, so yeah, that's how I got my start. And then I, I went on to become a doula and then later on, I was thinking okay, what can I offer to my clients? What can I do and then I, I went online and lo and behold, you could certify to be an instructor. So I did, and I was like this is this it! And yeah, so I'm about six months into being an instructor and I love it. It's an awesome program. Sara: So sounds awesome. Kelly and I were chatting before we press record about how I was not as fortunate as Kelly that I didn't find out about Dunstan Baby Language until after one of my clients introduced me to it. And I had three kids that were well beyond the baby language stage. So I'm glad that you found that at a fortuitous moment for you and I'm sure all the friends that you shared it with, were glad, too. And now all your clients that you can share, but with your formal training, that's awesome. So, can you give an overview of just the premise of the program, like the main points that it operates on? Kelly: Absolutely. So the main points of the program are that infants are automatically born with certain reflexes that they are using to kind of communicate with us. And they've kind of boiled it down to five specific sounds that all newborns make. And again, like I said, they're based on reflexes that are happening in the body. And when you add sound to those you get these Dunstan baby words that can help parents understand what their baby needs. It's really a program all about helping families bond and bond from an early, age. Sara: That's huge. And it's true for whatever language the baby goes on, is exposed to and goes on to acquire Is that correct? Kelly: Absolutely. They have done studies with over—their first study was with over 400 mothers and parents and babies and they all found that whatever language they spoke these babies still made the same sounds. And so and also it applies to even autistic children. I can attest with my oldest who's autistic—he still made the sounds even though he has difficulty communicating. But I honestly believe that because I was able to respond to his needs so quickly that it might have helped a little bit with that. I can't say specifically or scientifically, but that's just my opinion, because he is high functioning and is able to speak. So… Sara: But that makes a big difference like you said before with bonding and with him recognizing that he has needs that he can express and that you can respond to them because you know what they are. That's huge, and I feel like so many young parents with little babies making sound that have no idea what they're saying, just feel this frustration. And it affects the bond that can happen when you can't communicate with your child. Kelly: Right, right. And I just think about those parents who are like, what happens now after the hospital doors closed, you know? And if I can give them these tools to say, okay, you don't have to feel that sense of kind of dread as what you do now that you can go home and be confident and in your ability to be a good parent. Sara: That's huge. Cool. So I have another question for you. That's a little long, but… So in one of my classes, we were talking about language acquisition—first language acquisition—and I read an article about how older babies are, “learning how to mean,” meaning that they're exploring with language and how they're able to communicate their needs and ideas with others through it. But as I was reading it, I felt like the author wasn't giving really young babies enough credit. He claimed that it was past six months, past nine months, even, that babies realized that they can learn how to mean. But I want to hear your opinion, when do you think that infants begin attempting to meaningfully communicate and what avenues do they use? Kelly: So, like I said, our philosophy is that infants are, are kind of unconsciously communicating from day one. And again, it starts off on these basic, these very primal reflexes, but they're finding that if parents respond to the sounds that our babies, babies are making, that they… They're finding that if, if are not responded to the sound, usually about after three months, they kind of stopped making the sound. But they found that if parents are responding with the sounds and with these words that babies will kind of learn to associate that, and keep on making these sounds well past three months. It honestly, I believe it. It's my belief that, that it's helping babies communicate earlier. It's helping babies learn how to trust earlier. Because they know that their needs are being met. And so they're, they're calmer. So, yeah, does that does answer your question? Sara: Totally. And that makes a lot of sense to me because like you said, initially, it's a physiological reflex-based, like not a conscious attempt to communicate. But when you realize that, hey, when I make this sound like I am communicating this message with my parents or other caregivers, then that invites communication earlier. I think that's great. I think that makes a lot ofsense. Kelly: Yeah. And and it also kind of dispels the belief that that babies are manipulating you. Because young babies actually can't. They don't… Sara: Right. Kelly: It’s not like they consciously choose at two or three weeks to, you know, be colicky, they don't choose these things. So it's, it's your understanding that changes your whole perspective. Sara: I think that's a really good point because we kind of thrust our perspective upon a baby like, oh, they're manipulating me. If you sat down with somebody who said that, they probably realize that didn't actually literally mean that they felt that their baby had the ability to like, recognize their desires and then thwart them by doing something different, right? Like toddlers, we know they do that, right? But little tiny babies, right? But if you shift the perspective and say, okay, where is the baby coming from and what cues is the baby responding to and what physiological things are going on? When we shift our perspective instead of putting our perspective upon our babies makes a really big difference. Kelly: Yeah, exactly. Sara: You're totally selling me. I love it. My next question I've kind of touched on before so if you don't have anything else to add, that's fine. But how has your work as a Dunstan Baby Language educator influenced your personal experiences, and then the work you do as a doula?   Kelly: Um, it To be honest, I love it so much. So sometimes it's hard to hold back, especially here in Utah, with so many women who are pregnant and then like.. YOU NEED THIS! But I hold back. And oftentimes, they'll be, I'll be in church or something and there’ll be a baby crying and I'm like, “I think that baby needs to burp.” But, you know, I just I can't just go up and say that to somebody. But there have been times where like, I've had family members who've had babies and, and I've listened to them and I'm like, “I think that baby is kind of gassy” and she's like, “No, she just pooped” or something. I'm like, “well, try this or try doing this…” And sure enough, 30 minutes later, the baby will pass gas again or, you know, if they, they'll be like, the baby will be hungry. And they're like, “Oh, they just ate” and I'm like, “no, they're still hungry.” So yeah, they'll latch right on. So, but I, I just I love being able to offer this to women to, again to just be able to build that family bond. And the other thing that I love about is that we focus a lot on the dad. And we… my husband was actually much better at hearing the sounds in my son that I was and it is kind of forced me to stop and listen to him and trust his instincts and improve my communication with him. I know a lot of times, moms are hesitant to, I guess leave their baby with her husband or something like that because they feel like they have to do everything. But couples who learn this are kind of able to let that go and say, “Okay, my husband knows what to do.” And a lot of dads will come in and be like, “I feel so good because I know what to do.” Sara: Awesome. Kelly: So yeah, I love that family bonding. Sara: Yeah! And empowering for for both parents. Because it can be disempowering for a mother to feel like I am the sole provider for my baby physically, emotionally… Especially a breastfeeding mom who has literally… her body is producing all of its food and then feeling like its emotional needs can only be met through her, that can be disempowering for her. And it's great that you can flip it and empower for the husband as well for everybody to work together as a team. And even outside of that, you know, if you have other caregivers or grandparents or partner, whoever is helping to care, that's huge. Kelly: Absolutely. This isn't just for for new parents. It’s or anybody who's working with newborns, just to be able to improve their confidence and their skills. So yeah, I tell I tell my clients all the time that if grandma is watching baby then teach them these sounds so that she can respond quicker. But yeah, I love empowering the dad. That was my that's kind of why I do doula work as well. It's fun to see the dads in the birth room and see them transform into fathers. So giving them another tool is just, it's just a great opportunity. Sara: So that's huge. Okay, you've totally sold me. I'm going to talk with you more and more about this and send my clients to you to take your classes and all of this. I think this is important work that you're doing. And I have two quick questions for you to wrap up. One is if you had to choose just one word to describe your views about birth and the surrounding perinatal period, what word would it be? Kelly: life-changing? Is that one word? Sara: Oh yeah, just stick a hyphen in there—totally one word. Kelly: And no matter how your birth goes it's definitely going to permanently affect you and in whatever way, it's something that always stays with you. You can ask any person who's given birth. If any person has given birth, they may not be able to remember what they ate yesterday, but I guarantee you they can tell you every single detail of their birth and their story. Sara: Great. Life-changing. I love it. And I feel like that applies, too, to the work you're doing with the Dunstan Baby Language that could be life-changing. Kelly: Thank you. Sara: My last question is, how can listeners follow you on social media or your website? How can they connect with you? Kelly: Absolutely. So my website is shebirthservices.com, and you can follow me on Facebook at SHE Birth Services. And Instagram is the same thing: SHE Birth Services. So I’d love for anybody who wants to come and take a class. You're welcome to. Sara: Great. Thank you so much Kelly. It was great to have you. Kelly: Oh, thank you.   Outro: Did words play an important role in your birth experience? If you're interested in sharing your story on the podcast, go to www.birthwords.com. If you're liking what you hear on the podcast, please leave a review on your podcast app. For more resources about harnessing the power of words to benefit the birth experience, visit birthwords.com   Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Greetings, this is Kelly Coughlin, CPA, and CEO of EveryDay CPA providing tax accounting and revenue solutions to individuals and businesses throughout the U.S. In today’s podcast, I am going to interview a former grizzly bear. Yep! In a former life, for 30 years, he was a grizzly bear who took the shape of an IRS Officer, seizing assets and pursuing DOJ tax lien foreclosures. David Ronquillo began his career as a revenue officer in 1980 in Seattle. He has held positions as Field Collection Group Manager and Senior Collection Policy Analyst. Currently, he is helping tax professionals increase their knowledge and skills representing clients who are dealing with the IRS Collection operations. David, I want to welcome you to the EveryDay CPA Podcast. Kelly: I have a couple more questions on kind of the behind the scenes dynamics of the collection area, one is, what are some of the motivators or behind the scenes incentives that influence an agent that works on these cases, that work in favor of the taxpayer, and certainly which ones don’t work in favor of the taxpayer? I am thinking, you know, there is a pressure to close the case to get it off the table, right? We have heard all that, is that a fair statement, that there is the pressure to gets things closed, right? David: Right. Kelly: Does that pressure help the taxpayer or hurt the taxpayer or is a neutral? David: It can depend, and I can see it go both ways, for example, if it’s an egregious case, you know, the way that they ran the tax up, you know, a trust fund recovery penalty is a classic example. IRS may spend more time on it digging for assets or digging for a way to collect what is owed, simply because of the way the tax was generated or how cooperative - did they do what the revenue officer asks them to do or are they going out to try to refinance their house? So, in those instances, the case may be directly classified as a case that’s over-age. It used to be nine months. If the case was older than nine months in the inventory it was over age so then management starts looking at it a lot closer trying to figure out, what do we need to do to close this case? But if it’s a good enough case where it should not be closed, the IRS is not going to close it. On the other hand, if it’s a simple payment agreement, taxpayers can come in, they can make monthly payments, case is getting old, hey, let’s get the payment agreement written up and let’s get it closed. Let’s move on to something else. So, the pressure on closing the case can work both ways, it just depends on what your circumstances are. In dealing with the revenue officer, I always take the choice, because I hear these advertisements on the radio, oh, yeah, we do battle with the IRS, we fight the IRS, this and that. I don’t fight the IRS because it’s not effective. When people would fight me or fight my revenue officers, it was never effective because I used to tell taxpayers when I was a revenue officer, you don’t want to cooperate, fine, I will clear my desk and I will just have your case on my desk and I will spend all my time on it trying to figure out how I am going to collect from you, okay? So, because you are having an interaction with another individual, another human being, and people like to be treated well, like to be treated nice, the revenue officer is the same way, they go home from work to a family, to a family dog, they are regular people. So, I always advocate, try to solve the case for the revenue officer. If you know what the rules are, the procedures are, what the internal revenue manual calls for with the case within those parameters. If they owe tax you know that the revenue officer is going to want a 433-A, a financial statement or if it’s a business 433-B, you know what the standards are, don’t ask the revenue officer to grant $5,000 expense for mortgage and utilities when the standard for the area is like 2,000 bucks. So, work to resolve the case for the revenue officer, that way they don’t have to spend as much time of concentration on your case. Be cooperative, you have got a deadline, try to meet the deadline. If you can’t meet the deadline, at least call the revenue officer ahead of time and say I can’t meet the deadline and this is why, and generally they will extend the deadline. Don’t argue with them over issues that are not important, okay? In my example, the mortgage and utilities are $5,000, the standard is $2,000, why are you arguing with them over that? You probably won’t get it. I mean, you can put a little bit, but why, “Here is all the utility bills and this is why.” But I would much rather spend my time arguing with the revenue officer over something that they did wrong rather than something that I know my chances of winning are slim to none. Kelly: You keep referring to the revenue officer, what’s the hierarchy of IRS case management, the point of contact, taxpayer? And, parenthetically, I am going to assume that you recommend in most cases that a taxpayer get help from a professional that knows how to navigate these areas, is that a fair statement? David: Yeah, It is. It depends on the case. It depends on how much the taxpayer owes. If the taxpayer owes $5,000 and they can pay $500 a month then I would just tell them, hey, call the IRS or send in a letter to the IRS that you want to make a monthly payment agreement. If they owe $50,000 or $150,000 then that’s a lot different, and then it depends on what they have. Taxpayers, what I have seen, they don’t want to spend their time trying to deal with the IRS. They don’t know how the IRS works; they don’t know how the IRS thinks; they don’t know the IRS language and they don’t know what the IRS can do to them. And I have had taxpayers come to me after they have dealt with the IRS, and generally, they have a deadline put on them and now they want me to fix the problem. And that’s like, well, you’ve got a deadline from the IRS which is in three days and you expect me to do all this work for you, and if the work is not done, financial statement is not submitted, they are going to lobby. I can’t guarantee you that I can do this. My recommendation to taxpayers is, do not contact the IRS. Generally, if you owe enough money and you don’t feel confident in dealing with the IRS, contact a professional that knows what they are doing, knows how to deal with the IRS, because you’ll probably sleep a lot better at nights rather than you trying to deal with the IRS. Kelly: And if you are a tax professional and you don’t know how to navigate through this side of the IRS area, the collection area, then that’s your focus now in your business enterprise, correct? You are helping tax professionals navigate through these waters? David: Yes. I am going to stop representing taxpayers, simply, because I have done it for close to 40 years. And what I would rather do now is just simply act as a consultant to tax professionals. If they have questions, I’ll help them develop strategies on particular cases. You know, I attended the National Association Enrolled Agents conference at Las Vegas every year and those are good conferences but what I see happening is that you have folks coming in and they kind of learn representation to add it on to their practice, which is good, but you sit there in a seminar for an hour to an hour and a half to two hours, for example, on filling out a financial statement, 433-A, that’s really, in my opinion, not enough, because there are implications to what you put down on that 433-A. Anybody can fill it out because you are just putting down numbers. So, if you write down for real estate, three bedrooms, two bath resident, that its fair market value is $500,000, and the mortgage against it is $100,000, for equity of $400,000, you have to know how the IRS is going to look at that $400,000, especially a revenue officer. You just can’t submit that 433-A and say to a revenue officer, here it is, and have yourself wide open or no prepare your client. The revenue officer is going to ask you to go borrow, so let’s get started right now. Kelly: Right, right. David: So, the seminars are good but until you really get out and start working cases, Offers in Compromises is another one, the Acceptance Rates on Offers in Compromise is just under 50 percent. I don’t submit a lot of offers but everyone, I’ve probably submitted maybe about 10, 15, at the most, everyone has been accepted except for one, and that is because she went and got a job, that increased her income which kind of blew the offer up. You know, you have to be really, really careful on what you are doing so that you can achieve success for your clients. So, my plans now going into the future is, do consulting work. People want to call me up, this is what I have got, this is the type of case, I can kind of walk them through it, and try this, this and this, and if that doesn’t work, you know what, let’s try this. And just, you know, basically be a coach is what I want to do. Kelly: Yeah, got it. So, back to that question, hierarchy of case management, you have got the revenue officer, the next level up from that, like his supervisor, what do you call that supervisor? David: That is the group manager, and that group manager is going to supervise anywhere from 10 to 15 revenue officers; above that is the territory manager - that was my last position, it was a territory manager, and they are supervising anywhere, nowadays, because the personnel has shrunken, you know, five to 10 groups. And then above the territory manager is the area director and he or she is supervising…They have States, like here in Texas we are a part of the golf state area, that area director is in Huston. And golf state, they did some reconfiguration, but it used to be Texas, Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia and Tennessee, and, I think, Arkansas. Kelly: Okay. So, back to revenue officer, so, let’s say we have got a revenue officer that says, I want to go after retirement assets, I think earlier you said they have to go up three levels so does that mean it goes to the area director or the territory manager? David: Goes to the group manager, the group manager forwards it to the territory manager who forwards it up to the area director. Kelly: Alright. David: Every area has what’s called a technical analyst and this person will review the case for the area director, looking at the technical aspects of the case - does it meets the requirement for whatever the revenue officer is asking for? And if the technical analyst says, yes, this is good, they will give it to the area director and then he or she will sign off on it and they’ll go and come back tomorrow and open the levy. Kelly: That’s retirement assets and then the personal residence, same thing but it goes up one level above that, did you say? David: Yeah, it will go up through the area director and then it goes over to a special unit called advisory, and these are senior revenue officers that will look at the case again for technical issues. Does it meets the technical, the legal and technical, does it meets the requirements for doing the seizure? The case will then move over to IRS council’s office for review. They will review it for the same thing and they will then forward it over to the Department of Justice Civil Tax Division for the DOJ to take it in to Federal District Court to get an appointment to take it to the Federal District Court. Kelly: Okay, that’s very helpful. I have two final questions, unrelated, where you talked about OIC and some of these other tactics that are used to deal with liabilities. Let’s talk about CNC, Currently Not Collectable, once a tax liability goes into CNC classification that kind of puts everything on hold, there is no more collection activity, when does it get further attention, it won’t stay in there forever? What’s the catalyst to get it out of that, is it a tax return that gets filed and then the IRS notices, oh, this guy is making ten times the income now, is that more or less what happens? David: That is what happens, the IRS when they see a case they will set an income threshold. It’s in the internal revenue manual on how they calculate that. What they are looking at is necessary living expenses, and they set the threshold a little bit higher than what the necessary living expenses are because they don’t want a case that is generating out just because the taxpayer went $5 over what their necessary living expenses were, but they’ll set a threshold and then when subsequently file tax return, the income will be matched up against what the threshold is. And if their income is now greater than what the threshold is the case will then be regenerated out for collection because the assumption is the taxpayer is making more money now they can start paying towards something. If the taxpayer never exceeds that threshold the case will never come out, the statute will expire and that will be the end of it. Kelly: Alright, okay. David: And even, I think, if the taxpayer doesn’t file tax returns it won’t be put out of CNC status but what will happen is the IRS will be asking for the tax returns which is a whole other area to go into. Kelly: Yeah, right, right, okay. Alright, the final question is on internal collection versus external collection. A part of these ads we see on TV is, the IRS has hired a bevy of external collection agents that will really go after you, if you think your life was bad before, it really will be bad now. What are the facts on that? David: Now, there is big controversy over these private debt collections. The National Taxpayer Advocate is definitely opposed to it. IRS management, they tried this a number of years ago because they want to assign the low hanging fruit to cases that they cannot collect, the CNC cases to these private debt collectors. The most that they can do is make a phone call, try to locate the taxpayer and make a phone call but when it comes to actually resolving the case, say for example it’s a CNC case, private debt collector gets in touch with them and the taxpayer says, well, okay, I want to pay $100 a month, that case has to go back to IRS. IRS has to set up the payment agreement. They have no enforcement authority, basically, they are just trying to talk people into paying what they owe, track them down and pay what they owe. Internally, like we said at the beginning, the brown bear can chase them up the tree but the grizzly bear can just rip the tree out, that’s what IRS can do. Kelly: Yeah, right. Well, that is terrific. So, your market now is to help tax professionals help other taxpayers with tax liability issues. How would you like them to get in touch with you, telephone call, email? David: My email is david@dfwtaxhelp. That’s delta foxtrot whiskey tax help, h e l p.com. I have a website dfwtaxhelp.com, phone number is 214.997.4470. Kelly: That’s great. David: Yes, people have questions, you know, and I will tell you, NAEA just came out with this forum where people can post questions, and I look at that sometimes and people will post a question on collection issues, maybe something on an offer, and various people will respond. And I look at that and I think to myself, the person that is asking the question is maybe getting two or three lines of an answer. And in a lot of stuff in collection there is permutations to it, there is different nuances that can occur. You can plan to go down one path and you have to know what’s down that path that can mess things up. So, I see that forum is good for quick short answers but if you really, really want to know how to handle a specific situation you really need to talk to somebody that is familiar with the situation that can give you some good directions, to give you good ideas on strategies of what to do. Kelly: That’s terrific. Well, David, I look forward to having you on my team to help me and my customers deal with this because I think you are a terrific resource to have and I am glad that that former grizzly bear is in my corner and are helping people. I like that. David: I like that. I will have to tell my colleagues that I am still with the IRS. It’s terrific. Well, thank you, Kelly. Kelly: Thanks. David: Alright. Kelly: I enjoy talking to you, great. Bye. David: Alright, bye, bye.

Ready to Positioning Your Business to Profit? Go to-->>> http://positioningtoprofit.com/HLP_029.mp3Patty: Hey there my legacy leader This is Patty Domínguez with Episode 29 of Her Legacy Podcast Reinventing yourself and your Business with the amazing Kelly Howard, Kelly has had an amazing run at entrepreneurship. Being a business boss she has started and built and sold business number four. So in this episode we're talking about how to know when it's time to sell how she knew literally what was holding her back from selling.And then just the overall mindset of what it takes to get into this frame of mind and do it knowing setting the intention that on the other side of it you're going to be fine. We know that being an entrepreneur is not for the faint of heart.And so I deeply appreciate these kind of conversations with women who just have that fortitude and the knowingness and setting the intention and seeing it through. I particularly admire women like that so I'm super excited to share Kelly's story with you here on Her Legacy Podcast. And please do hit the subscribe button if you haven't done so. And of course let me know what you're thinking about this episode. What other topics do you want to see? Because I'm always looking for new guests to bring to you my legacy leader. So this episode is a special one with Kelly Howard. Please do enjoy. And here we go.Patty: All right Kelly Howard thank you so much for being on Her Legacy Podcast. It is such a pleasure. And it was actually commenting and how fresh faced she is today. She's putting me to shame you. And because this is not a video podcast Thank God then just wondering knowledge with you. OK. And welcome.Kelly: Thank you. I'm super excited to be here and I told Patty that the reason I was so fresh faced was I actually showered this morning which of course when you're online you have to do that right.Patty: The secret of owning your own business you know getting to decide whether you want a shower or not. I wanted to just say we met in person at a mastermind a week ago and it's such a joy to connect.And I got to tell you I did a show talking about just how important connecting in person is. I mean you can have group code you have an online presence and doing that kind of thing but there's nothing like being physically in front of a group of people and connecting at that level.So I just want you know I'm so glad I got a chance because we were laughing so much and having so much fun and learning and immersing ourselves and just new depths of opportunity and it just been fantastic so far.Kelly: Yeah it was very brilliant.Patty: Yeah it was awesome. All right. So I'd like to get braggy with all my guests and I want to know what do you believe your superpower is.Kelly: Oh my superpower. OK. My superpower is a weird one. I have the ability for good or for bad to not remember something that wasn't good. So yeah. So this is the way that works. Like I'm just going to make something up. Let's say that someone did a really bad review on me.Patty: Yeah.Kelly: Right. I like Oh Bad review. And then that would be it. I would never remember it again. And if I saw that person I wouldn't remember that it didn't happen like there were times when my partner would say you can't do business with that company again. Don't you remember what happened I'm like No.?So my team part of their job is to keep track of things like this. I don't know if it's a superpower but it really makes my life easy.Patty: Oh my God. Well we know that the cause of our suffering is attachment. As the Buddha says and that your ability to be removed from the outcome is exceptional and that is literally what causes all suffering.Kelly: Yeah, I guess that's a great way of looking at it. Thank you.Patty: Yes. I mean I literally get chills because how many I remember in my first podcast that I had this was in 2015 I think we got one bad review and it was completely ridiculous it didn't have anything to do with anything with the podcast. I was literally sick about it.I was like how could somebody not appreciate it and we just take it so hard or if somebody comments on your work I mean how often has that happened. Or something as not well received. We look at the bad and bypassed the good and we just get mired in the bad.Kelly: Yeah. It doesn't help I know that like at one point I used to check and see why people unsubscribe. Like if they unsubscribe from email list. Well because Kelly Howard is a litchi cried a lot so hard And after that it's surreal I don't I would look at my own tabs anymore.Patty: Oh my gosh.Kelly: I remember it. But it struck me as a rather funny actually. So yeah yeah I guess it's just holding on those things just doesn't help much.Patty: It doesn't. It doesn't. That is truly a superpower. The one thing that I say is just as a total aside I have been so amazing about, I want people to unsubscribe like don't waste my e-mail service provider people's space type of thing. If you're not interested. Yeah. And I think it was Lisa Carpenter last year she talked about doing a massive cleanup just kind of a recon doing her e-mail list.Kelly: Sure.Patty: It just unapologetically. She's like you know these people are never going to do business with me because I know we have such an attachment to our list size as supposed to the quality. So just as a little aside as it comes to my mind there's nothing wrong with that.And I know we just put so much weight on these dumb things that don't matter at the end of the day and you just a perfect example of the way they explained it you were you just laughed it off you know.Kelly: Yeah.Patty: Yeah. It's incredible. All right. So I thought it was so fascinating when I read when you first fill out a form or just about just what you've been doing in this incredible background that you have had you started growing building and selling for different businesses.Kelly: So you're truly truly an entrepreneur.Patty: Yeah.Kelly: I don't. I mean I work well with others but I don't work out what someone tells me what to do.Patty: Amazing. So tell me about like is this something that you always knew that you would do or did just organically happened because you're just wired that way for something new.Kelly: Yeah I think I am just wired that way. I couple of very young stories like you know I learned very early on that if I wanted a horse I had to clean my horse stables. I did the horses Ta da da Right. So that's how I figured out that I got what I wanted.So a few years later I was able to drive. I was 16 at the time and I saw a fruit stand on the side of the road. I stopped and I'm you know watching these people and people just fine all this stuff and I thought why can't I have a food stamp. So I served fruit stand and my mother said we look like the grapes of wrath.My little brother and my friend from down the street to work we would drive to this fruit stand every day. But it was amazing like I had no knowledge that I couldn't do this. So I just did it and we got shut down by the Health Department they extend something back up again. Well, All right. And it was stupid just like how much money we made. It was crazy.Patty: Wow.Kelly: And it just kind of stuck with me after that. And then you know I don't do well with someone telling me what to do. You know I'm just not very good at that. So it just stuck with me and that's what I've been doing ever since.Patty: And out of curiosity what are your core values.Kelly: Oh freedom is clearly the number one driver.Patty: Yeah. Yeah. And that is just we're really addicting. And here's the other thing is that the fact that you just did it and didn't even think you have this ability to remove yourself from the outcome. Did you have any fear of failure or anything?Kelly: Oh at that time no. I will say that as I've gotten older and businesses have become more successful then absolutely. Like right now and I'm sure we'll talk about it later but right now I'm in transition so I'm starting something new. Like early it's on my desk whatever new it is. And there's absolutely some I don't think fear is the right word but if I paid attention to it I would be afraid. So I have to just like or remove myself from the possibility that it could flop and I might not do it. And just like focus on that outcome.Patty: And how do you do that? How do you say OK how do you catch yourself because I know we talked right before it hit the record button this last business as you were ready to sell it you're kind of exploring whether to sell or not. And the question of one came up and you find yourself too much in the comfort zone. How did you set by to that?Kelly: So yeah. So I was way in the comfort zone. And I had realized that this business went on for a long time I think I was in it for about 14 years. And it was the most successful business I've ever had. And I was really cool was every day money would show up in my account.Patty: Unbelievable.Kelly: Magic right. It just it was a membership company. So there was just always money in my bank account. And when I decided that it just my heart wasn't there anymore. You know like energy my heart like when I woke up in the morning it was like Yeah, let's go do this thing. It wasn't like yeah let's go do this thing. So it was time to change. And I definitely I guess the right word to say is that as I was closing on this business there was a little bit of a head around my throat.Oh what are you doing? Like really. You're doing this. And then the other side of me is just like just don't even think about it Kelly. You cannot think about a bad outcome if I think about a bad outcome. Then I'm stuck. Right. So whenever I go to bad outcome I just like I guess it comes back to at superpower really just turn my brain off it's like whatever. Let's not think about that. We'll think about unicorns and rainbows and Right. It's the only thing I know to do. Like literally right.Right now the way I structured the cell of this business because I want to do it so quickly all of while not all of it but the majority of the revenue comes at the end. So it was a serious leap of faith on this one because I mean I have bills I have ongoing you know expenses and starting a new business but I still went OK well let's just see what happens like worst thing that can happen is I go back and I started another fruit stand or start stacking groceries right. Like.Patty: Gosh you're truly an entrepreneur, like you're like yeah what the worst thing that can happen is and if we can wrap our heads around that and say you know what. You're still going to be OK. You're going to be OK.You have the ability to create money. I mean it's like when you really recognize and coming from a place of if this doesn't happen then there's always something else that mentality is was going to help you stay in the frame of mind that you're going to be OK.And I know that makes sense but I think it makes a lot of sense and I think that people hold on like because I've heard this before and I even had clients like this has to work otherwise blah blah blah my bringing in such a bad energy source. And like it's like you're forcing it to happen and I know I literally have been there too I am notorious. I remember having a coach saying to me you are literally one of the worst hardoholics I've ever seen. And that show me just my wiring. Like I'm going to work myself to death because this has to have it. And it sounds like for you. You almost say OK I'm going to forge ahead on this but I know that if that doesn't work there's always going to be something else.Kelly: There will be I mean if you think about it. We live really easy lives right. Like I mean really occasionally if you look around our lives we're all crazy. So the worst thing that could happen for me isn't that bad right.Like I mean there was a time in my life when things weren't great and I would realize that even in times that weren't great I was still better off than I ever really probably expected myself to be as a child. Right.So I don't even know how to say it it's just that something else will happen. Like you know something better will come along. Things just worked out. Oh there's light all we end on built a fear of life right.Patty: Yeah but you know it really is true. It was just I've meant before we hit the record button I was talking about how I went to dinner with some friends and they are not entrepreneurs. They work for companies and my friend was saying just how unhappy she is and I was talking about how it has literally been seven years since I've been in corporate and I just cannot wrap my head around ever going back and I always say it's because I know too much.Not that I'm so much smarter that I know too much of what it's like to live on the other side. And for me that sound like for you because this is what sparked this comment is that my inner peace of not having to deal with other people's bullshit in a work situation my inner peace is more important.And if there's ever a situation where I'm just not making as much it's ok. I prefer to have my inner peace I don't need the super designer bags, do I like them absolutely. But if that means I have to forego those types of things I know that I'm going to be OK because my inner peace is lost in court.Kelly: Yeah it is true. I mean if you don't feel good inside then it's just not fun.Patty: It's not. And I wish more people understood that. And I mean I've come full circle and that realization is that I just love the perspective that you naturally have that I've had to find out on my own and I think in a very hard way. You know verses like you're just wired that way which is so fantasticKelly: I mean our society doesn't teach that.Patty: No.Kelly: You know I mean it is very much like you need a nose to the grindstone you need to do things right you know if you don't be irresponsible like don't get rid of a business that's working.Patty: Great.Kelly: You doesn't know what's going to happen next.Patty: Yeah.Kelly: that's just kind of social.Patty: Yeah it is just the social pressures and when you finally like all the irrational rules. Right. The really weird unwritten irrational rules that you kind of people are probably thinking you're crazy for doing that. So how did you get over your whole imposter syndrome is it because you didn't want to sell because you didn't know what was next or you didn't want to go into the West next.Kelly: So OK the imposter syndrome this is what happened it was back in August when I really decided OK you know quit partying around like I had a broker. But I really was like you know yeah yeah. Don't like that offer or whatever. Not interested. And I realized that I was really kind of holding on. Right.So I was like what am I doing. I mean why I am holding on. And it's because I had become such a big dog in a small space that it was really easy for me. Right. Like you know I was known in my space. If I spoke people listened. You know it was kind of like ego right it was just like total ego thing.And I was thinking well now I'm just no one right. I'm just no one again in a no one space because I don't even know what I want to do. And in that you know it took me it was probably four months of just kind of wallowing around in that thought process because I was just like well you know who am I going to be. So then I decided I was going to be is Kelly 4.0,Patty: Oh I love that.Kelly: That was it. You know reincarnation here and it's just a joke. And then when I jump I start thinking about like I still if you were to say like you know gone to my head. What are you going to do? I'd be like this.I has done it well. But the truth is is that you know I know what I'm good at and I know where I can help. So it comes together.Patty: Let's continues with the show. So this new brand that you're working on and it very much is in the early stages is fit is freedom. Right.Kelly: Correct.Patty: Can you talk a little bit about your vision as it is right now because we know that you can fit itKelly: No absolutely. What I know. I guess I get so emotional around all of my friends who are whether they're entrepreneurs or women who work for corporations. I hate the fact that something I hear all the time is Oh yeah yeah I know I need to take care of my health. I'll do it tomorrow I'll do it next week I'll do it when this project's done. I'll do it after I launch you know whatever it is and it always is getting put off.And what happens is that I see my friends like you know doing the things that they love to do they start gaining weight. You know become inflexible and they're just not caring for themselves. And it's what I. I got a couple of years ago I started realizing I was getting what I called Launch Hangover's like I would do these big launches right. And then you've got runway up to the launch and you got to clean up after launch will this had three to four month period. Right. And I was just like working my ass off.Patty: Yeah.Kelly: They were successful but I wasn't because I wasn't taking care of myself like you know my food. I'd start having food delivered that was just like the local Chinese food and whatever right. You know things I don't normally do and not going to the gym.So that's where it all came from. I'm like OK I had to turn it around and once I turned it around I went you know this is something that's important because how can you and everyone else and myself do the things that we need to do if we don't sulk it.Patty: Yeah you're absolutely right. I know last year I was focused on work and I was sacrificing a lot of the health and that's so easy to get into that rhythm where you say oh later I'll do it later. And it's just not enough. And I know like something happens after 40 where things are just not working the way that they used to.Kelly: Well Yeah it actually starts out at about 30.Patty: Seriously.Kelly: Yes.Patty: Oh my gosh.Kelly: But it's happening on a cellular level. And so then by 40 if you've been kind of you know doing the work wrapping during your 30s and by 40s it starts showing up and then if you keep doing it then in the 50s you're like oh man can I get it back.Patty: Everything's hurting and it's so much harder.Kelly: Yeah.Patty: Oh wow. So then what is the structure of your new business going to be doing you think is it going to be a membership as well or are you going to do more retreats.Kelly: Well actually a great question. I will start with a simple online 10 week course with coaching a weekly coach course. People can either do it yourself or you know do the coaching monthly.Patty: Yeah.Kelly: That's step one step two is a retreat because I events are in my blood like I just can't help it. I just do events right. I've always done a bit. So a couple of retreats here. That's it no more. And then the final step is a membership where people can be accountable with each other and stay there because there's so much to be said for.Well it's like you're talking about community. Yeah. If you're not connecting. Especially if you're working by yourself right. Like if you're not connecting and you're not having fun and you're not being accountable you're not turn load then trimmed there when you're all together then Life start shrinking and we don't want life to shrink like I mean we do this for ourselves so life can expand and not so it shrinks.Patty: That's so fantastic and it sounds like you have the structure in mind because you've done it before and it's just going to be easy peasy once you hone in on exactly what the experience you want your people to have. And we've heard that before.Kelly: Yeah yeah. I mean it's kind of like Chibbies. Right.Patty: You're like piece of cake. I like this... All right. So then what's your vision for this? It is freedom. Let's say over the next two three years.Kelly: OH OK. Let me clarify that like what does the business end up looking like what is the business. Where is the business? Maybe a little.Patty: Yeah. So for you. What do you wanted to look like. You personally because you've been in your last business you have for 14 years you anticipate holding on the same view. You want to get it to a certain level and suddenly it has that always in the back of your mind.Kelly: Yeah that's a great question. So I've never had a personal brand before. And the reason I haven't is because the personal brand is harder to sell, right. I am kind of at the age now where I probably don't have Kelly 5.0 in me likeYou know I mean really the truth. So what I assume is that I wanted something that was very location independent everything I've had in the past has been tied to the city and the cities but also for me but it's been tied very tightly that way.So location independents small team. I've had big teams I've had little teams. I want little team I want like you know at the most. There are five of us and we are just like kick ass and take names. In a very small group less is more for me these days. My word for the year is ease. I want things to be easy.Patty: Yeah.Kelly: So easy to me is not a big team a simple structure. I don't do one on one coaching because that's not easy for me. It doesn't light me up.Patty: Right. Right.Kelly: So I want things that just make me happy. And I also want a lot more playing in the next couple of years. I kind of dialed the back these last two years. And I mean I'd like to get out and backpack and kayak and things like that. So I've already put big chunks of time in my calendar where I'm just taking off you know.Patty: Oh that's so amazing. I remember hearing on somebody in the online space that is like an author speaker. He said that at the beginning of the year him and his partner they take 100 days on their calendar where they just take off.Kelly: Wow. That's awesome.Patty: So yes that is number one on his calendar when he talks about goals and objectives and all this and then says one of the 100 days. And where are we going. And I thought that was so brilliant because it makes it a lot negotiable.Kelly: Yeah.Patty: And everything else works. Now isn't it.Kelly: Yeah. Now I got to go back and look at my calendar.Patty: I know I thought that was so smart and it just reminded me and I heard him say this like literally four years ago. But it just popped into my head because of the way that you set age you're like I want to do more of the fun and this and that and so what if you sat down on your calendar and just made it a nonnegotiable. And I think that's how it doesn't get away from us because we have a tendency like the largest lets file that later.Kelly: I mean I don't you know I've done that and.Patty: I just love that philosophy. And he's all about my business works for me and my partner in the set up in the lifestyle that we want.Kelly: Right. That is the lifestyle that we're doing rightPatty: Oh Yummy. I was like oh my god that's so smart. So I don't know. I'm all for that and I think that's something to really consider a dodge because I definitely see the value in that. I mean think about it like almost a third of your year is based in enjoyment and connection and the relationship holding for me. Tell me that you're not going to have a richer life just by doing that.Kelly: That's right.Patty: Fantastic. OK. So we're going to turn the corner here. Think of a song that would represent your life. What song would it be?Kelly: OK. Sure. Big fan of James Brown. I feel good.Patty: I love it Kelly I feel good.Kelly: I love it.Patty: That is awesome. OK. And what is one personal development or growth habit that you have that's worked for you.Kelly: Woo maybe a bundle is at work. I have like a little bundle that I have every day. I can't tell you that I knock it out of the park every day. It's probably 70 percent that I hit it. But the bundle is I write a journal. I meditate or I do self-analysis.I put my vitamins out like I am the worst vitamin I'm a perfect vitamin buyer. Terrible vitamin consumer right. So the vitamins go out and then the other thing is I write my goals too.Patty: Oh wow.Kelly: I kind of bundle that little thing into the morning.Patty: Oh that's brilliant. It's a good morning bundle for sure. And then what is your definition of success.Kelly: Wow. I think it has come back to freedom. You know I mean that really is our definition of success to meKelly: Yeah let's say you have that inner peace All the inner peace boy that's what I love it...Patty: And then after all is said and done Kelly what do you want your legacy to be.Kelly: I'm not a person who is generous with her time. Like I don't I don't volunteer. You won't find me you know at the local shelter volunteering but I am generous with my money.And I want to be able to have a legacy where I know that by what I have created I have been able to create. A better life for people who need water for animals who need homes for women who need shelter for children who need love.Patty: I Love that is beautiful. Yeah because when we have money we have choices and more money more choices on how to create more impact.Kelly: Yeah.Patty: Which is really cool. And so how do people get in touch with you if they want to hear more about Fit is freedom what you're doing which backup event this year.Kelly: So you can find us that fitisfreedom.com and that will lead you to the podcast it leads you to me at least your downloads. So once again it's just fitisfreedom.com.Patty: Brilliant so fit is freedom dot com it'll be in the show notes and all the links will be there too. With Kelly's social media handles and ways to connect with her. Kelly thank you so much for being on her legacy podcast.Kelly: Oh thank you. I mean I'm so grateful. Thank you.Patty: Likewise.Here are the links where you can reach Kelly Howard:Kelly Howard (kelly@angeltiger.com),Website: www.AngelTigerFit.com (being rebranded to www.FitisFreedom.com),

General John F. Kelly, Chief of Staff to the President, made some comments about the Civil War recently that sent the enforcers of orthodoxy into apoplexy. Here is our calm response to the controversy.

Introduction: Kelly Coughlin is CEO of BankBosun, a management consulting firm helping bank C-Level Officers navigate risk and discover reward. He is the host of the syndicated audio podcast, BankBosun.com. Kelly brings over 25 years of experience with companies like PWC, Lloyds Bank, and Merrill Lynch. On the podcast Kelly interviews key executives in the banking ecosystem to provide bank C-Suite officers, risk management, technology, and investment ideas and solutions to help them navigate risks and discover rewards.   And now your host, Kelly Coughlin.   Kelly: Good morning. This is Kelly Coughlin. I've got David Shoemaker on the line. We’re going to do a podcast with David. He's the President of Equias Alliance.   David: Good morning.   Kelly: Good morning David. How you doing?   David: I am well.   Kelly: Just to kind of lay the foundation here I thought we’d talk very briefly about my relationship with David and Equias. As David knows, I'm a CPA. I've been in the investment and banking ecosystem for many years and as part of a consulting gig about a year and a half ago I came across the BOLI industry, the bank owned life insurance industry, and then Equias Alliance. I decided at that time, after looking at this asset class, that this is a space I wanted to get into. And I looked at the competitors, once I decided I liked the product, and decided who are the competitors, Equias, in my mind, rose above everybody else out there.     It wasn’t just me that thought that. I believe American Bankers Association selected Equias as their endorsed vendor. I think another dozen or state banking associations also selected them. Is that a fair statement?   David: Ten of them.   Kelly: Ten, clearly they emerged in my mind and in other’s mind as the key player out there. I met with David and I found him to be a key player in the industry, so I thought I'd do a podcast disclosing that I have an independent consultant relationship with David’s company, Equias. I thought we’d do a podcast and talk about first of all just give us a brief background on who you are, how you got into this space, some background and then we’ll talk about the product generally and how you got into this space and what your take is on that. You want to kick it off with some brief bio on who you are?   David: I graduated from the University of Tennessee, Knoxville with a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration, with a major in accounting, then worked for Deloitte Touche for nine years and an investment banking firm for three years. Then, while I was in investment banking, one of my clients was looking at an insurance product and asked me to help evaluate it knowing that I was a CPA technical type.     I liked what I saw, but what I didn’t like was that, it had a four percent front-end load charge. I thought it was a good asset class, but if we could get rid of the load charge we could make it very viable for banks to want to use as an asset class. I've been in bank owned life insurance and nonqualified differed comp for the last twenty-seven years now. I've worked with hundreds of banks over that period of time. I live in Memphis. I have a wife and six children. There’s a lot to do on a daily basis just keeping up with the family.   Kelly: All right, taking from your statement that you saw what was going in the market, the four percent front-end load. Let's elaborate on that because my understanding based on discussion with others including yourself is that you were one of the early pioneers of crafting the product offering as it is right now. What was the need in the market at that time? Give us a general year when that was. Then, where was the gap in products available and the products needed by the bank? What did you see at that time?   David: The year was 1989. There were several products available in the market, but they all had loads of between two and four percent. That means if you purchased a million dollars of BOLI asset and you had even a two percent load that was a $20,000 initial reduction of your cash value. You’d have to reduce your earnings and capital by $20,000 per million. I saw that as a hindrance to banks wanting to buy that asset.     So my partner at the time, who was an attorney, and I decided we could go to insurance carriers and see if they could provide a product that had no-loads which would be more viable for a bank. During that process we found that there's more to it than we’d initially understood. The carriers have to pay a premium tax to the state which generally averages about two percent. Then the federal government has a tax called the DAC or Deferred Acquisition Cost tax that effectively costs around a point and a quarter.     Carriers at time were not comfortable with essentially front ending that asset to give a hundred percent credit after they paid the taxes because they would potentially lose the money if the policy didn’t remain on the books. It took a fair amount of discussion and a fair amount of time, but my partner and I were able to convince four carriers to do no-load contracts.     At that time, I guess there were two other firms that we knew of in the business. They were Bank Compensation Strategies who pioneered the business and then there was Benmark. They were the primary players in, it wasn’t called BOLI then, the bank owned life insurance market. The need for it was to find a product that was viable to banks that didn’t have these loads charges and the idea behind it, back in that day, was primarily to fund nonqualified, deferred compensation plans for management and Boards of banks.   Kelly: That was the primary need for the product, not as an investment per se, but to help fund the nonqualified benefit portion.   David: Yes, to maybe take it a step further. There were not really any regs back until 1991 that were clear as to what a bank could purchase and couldn’t purchase. They could not buy life insurance as an investment asset. They could buy it to fund specific needs. A nonqualified, deferred comp plan was widely considered to be one of those specific items that could be funded with life insurance. It was not clear at the time that you could buy life insurance to informally fund health care and 401K and other retirement benefits and group life benefits and so forth.     Even in the first regs that were issued in 1991, bank reg; I think it’s called BC249, essentially said that you can’t buy life insurance as an investment. You can buy it to offset the cost of certain benefit plans. Even then it wasn’t clear whether that covered health care and 401Ks and things like that, so the initial design of bank owned life insurance was primarily for the purpose of nonqualified deferred compensation plans.   Kelly: The regs specifically prohibited it as an alternative investment asset class. Is that mainly because of that front-end charge and regulators didn’t want to see the hit to capital?   David: That was not the reason. They just viewed life insurance as not a normal asset for a bank from an investment standpoint. It was for specific purposes, but not considered to be an investment in the same terms as Treasury’s and agencies and municipal bonds.   Kelly: Now, that has changed since those early years correct that regulatory perspective?   David: Technically no, in 1996 there was a guidance issued under OCC96-51 which specifically gave authority for a bank to buy life insurance to informally fund retirement benefits and health care. So even today you can't buy life insurance purely as an investment. You have to purchase it from a regulatory standpoint to offset and/or recover the cost of employee benefit plans.     For instance, if a bank had no employee benefit plans; if they weren’t providing health care or 401K’s or retirement plans or nonqualified plans, they really could not buy life insurance and hold onto it until the death of the insured because they would not have a valid reason under the regs to buy that life insurance.   Kelly: They could only buy like Key Man life insurance.   David: They could buy the Key Man, but when that Key Man would leave the bank they’d have to surrender the policy because there was no need for it once that key man left.   Kelly: A bank does not have to have a nonqualified benefit plan. It could just have any sort of benefit plan. It could be health insurance. It could be 401K, any sort of benefit, correct?   David: That's correct, as long as they're providing employee benefits. From experience, if a bank provides health care coverage typically the cost of health care in today’s market is so high that health care alone is enough to justify buying bank owned life insurance generally up to twenty-five percent of capital.   Kelly: Right, so do you see BOLI as primarily an alternative asset class or an insurance product with investment benefits or does it kind of depend on what the needs of the bank are?   David: I would say it depends on the needs of the bank. I'd say it probably leans more toward the alternative asset class in that you look at the features of bank owned life insurance as a tool to produce earnings that would help the bottom line and help recover employee benefit expenses. BOLI has features that are attractive from that standpoint.   Kelly: As an alternative asset class, and I know you and I've had this discussion offline a couple times, if you consider the investment features as an alternative asset class what asset class does BOLI compete against best or worst I suppose? Where do you think, if you were a bank and they liked the features and benefits of BOLI and they need as a replacement. What asset do you think it replaces best MUNI’s, agencies, loans? As I see it, it could be a loan to an insurance company. Where do you see it?   David: It's hard to say that BOLI replaces any particular investment because the features are different than all the other asset classes that are traditional for a bank. If you go down that path and talk about, for instance, BOLI versus MUNI’s there is some common characteristics in that they both have income that's not taxable that helps produce generally higher returns than most taxable asset classes.     There are a lot of differences in those two asset classes, for instance, MUNI’s generally have a fixed rate interest rate, whereas BOLI is an adjustable interest rate. The credit quality of both are high. The BOLI carriers tend to be large, very well-known, highly rated carriers, so very strong credit quality. BOLI has no mark to market in the asset, that in reporting periods whereas municipal bonds generally have to do a mark to market of capital through the OTTI adjustment. BOLI essentially doesn’t have a diminution of value when rates rise whereas municipal bonds could.     Now, from the value of municipal bonds relative to BOLI is that it's always tax-free rather than tax deferred. BOLI’s tax deferred technically, but if held until death its tax free. If you surrender a BOLI contract before maturity, before the person dies, you have a tax liability for the gain plus an extra ten percent for the it’s called a modified endowment contract penalty. BOLI effectively has minimal liquidity from the standpoint of once you buy it you intend to hold it until death, because you don’t want to incur the tax liability.     Whereas a municipal bond if you decided to sell that you would still retain all the income that you've earned to that point tax free. Sometimes banks put municipal bonds in the hold to maturity buckets so they can't really sell the bond; it becomes an illiquid asset for them as well. There's some pros and cons to each, but BOLI does hold up well generally considering the pros and cons of it to any of the asset classes.   Kelly: But, especially MUNI’s.   David: Yes, I think from that standpoint rather than one versus the other it might be some combination of the two for diversification.   Kelly: From my perspective, I see MUNI yields to get higher yield you have to extend duration, so you look at the risk of extending duration versus investing some assets in bank owned life insurance. I've only been doing this for a year now. It’s seems that like half the banks have BOLI on the balance sheet and half don’t.     From my perspective, it's kind of a CPA, risk manager, investment person I don’t really see why a bank wouldn’t max out their twenty-five percent of net capital. Now, that sounds pretty self-serving I know, but in your experience what's the single biggest reason for a bank to not include BOLI in its assets class, because there certainly is a reasonable amount of bias and hesitancy for Boards and CFO’s to get BOLI. What's the single biggest reason that you see for a bank to not include it in their asset class?   David: The stats on BOLI are that sixty percent of the banks across the country have BOLI and forty percent don’t. For banks over a hundred million it's about two-thirds that have BOLI and one-third that don’t. It’s fairly common for banks above one hundred million to have an investment in bank owned life insurance. For those that don’t, it generally falls into one of two to three reasons.     Probably the most prevalent is a bank that has high loan demand. The bank wants to make loans to its local market because that helps build franchise value. If they have high loan demands, say their loan to deposit ratio is over a hundred percent, they may not have the liquidity to hold BOLI at the current time. All their attention and all their liquidity is going into making loans. While BOLI competes with loans well on the yield side, the tax equivalent yield side, banks tend to want to have loans for building the franchise value versus owning bank owned life insurance. If they have the option, they're going it put it into loans rather than BOLI assuming they feel comfortable with the credit quality of those loans. That's probably the biggest reason.     Number two is that some banks don’t fully understand the asset, haven’t taken the time to fully understand it. The pros and cons and features of BOLI is not traditional with a lot of banks. There's this uncertainty about something that's not traditional. They may think “We haven’t done that before and I don’t want to take the time to learn pros and cons.” Maybe they’ve had a presentation and it wasn’t presented in a way that made it clear what the pros and cons are. They maybe saw it as too much of a sales push instead of laying out all the pros and all the cons kind of thing.     Keep in mind that for BOLI to be approved by a bank it generally requires a hundred percent agreement, meaning you must have the CFO of the bank, the CEO of the bank and usually everybody on the Board to be in unison that they want to buy BOLI. You can have one person dissent out of ten, for instance, and that could keep it from happening.   Kelly: Why is unanimity required?   David: It’s not required. It's just generally the way it is. First off, if you don’t have the CEO and CFO on board it probably won't go to the Board. You need both of them. The Board, they normally just don’t want BOLI to be something that causes dissention among the Board members. That's not always the case, but typically they need all Board members or at least eighty to ninety percent approval before they would invest in the asset. I haven’t really run into it, but I don’t think you’ll see BOLI being approved on a five to four vote.   Kelly: Yeah, but that would be true with just about any asset class. Let's say the bank wanted to, the CFO proposed extending duration. Don’t you think that unanimity would be expected or the same standard would be expected for that decision to extend municipal bond duration versus like in a BOLI decision?   David: Yes, I would think so. On investments they have their investment policy that's been approved by the Board and that decision would have to be made within the investment policy about extending duration. Yes, I would think you would need a very high approval rate of the Board members before you would change the investment the policy to do something that effectively increases the risk.   Kelly: Do you see BOLI as being subject to…say within the scope of the banks investment policy in your experience?   David: No, BOLI has its own policy. One of the requirements under the regs is that you have to have a BOLI policy before you can purchase it. You would establish a bank owned life insurance policy; in a sense it's an investment policy for BOLI all to its own. It explains within the policy the bank’s view of BOLI; the percentage of capital that the bank would be willing to purchase; the percent to any one carrier; the due diligence that would be done before purchase; carrier selection; vendor selection. How would they go about deciding which carriers, which vendors and so forth? That all has to be documented in a policy before the bank can even go about purchasing a BOLI product.   Kelly: The bank either includes that as a chapter within the investment policy or they have it as its own separate investment policy.   David: I have pretty much only seen it as its own separate policy. If they include it within the investment policy it would be its own chapter. It's fairly lengthy. It's usually ten - fifteen pages of policy all to itself.   Kelly: How has the industry changed since the early years?   David: In the early years, I guess from a salesperson’s standpoint the hard part was to get a bank to talk to you about BOLI because it just wasn’t common and owning life insurance as an asset was not normal. It was outside the box and a lot of bankers didn’t want to discuss doing something that was outside the box. The biggest hurdle was getting the audience.     Today, most banks know about BOLI so they've heard about it and they have had many, many sales calls about it. Other banks they know have purchased it, so they understand at least the term and what it is. Now, there are just a whole lot of sales calls from insurance sales folks asking about BOLI. They're aware of it. It's just very, very competitive and maybe difficult for the bankers to understand the difference in firm A versus firm B.     The other way that's changed, when I started doing this the only products available were what's called general account products where the carrier provides a universal life insurance product or some whole life products that have an interest rate or dividend rate. Then the main risk to the bank was a carrier’s credit whether the carrier would be able to pay the claim later. Today, you have not only general account which are still very popular, but since then there's been a lot of purchases of what is called hybrid separate account products and also variable separate account products.     Variable separate account products are where the assets are segregated from creditors somewhat like a mutual fund. The bank can choose to invest the money within a particular investment bucket; although, for a bank it as to be eligible investments unless it's used as a hedge against a deferred comp plan. Those have some higher risk features, a little bit more moving parts. They have a stable value wrap sold by a registered product or private placement memorandum and so they're more complicated. Most community banks shy away from those because of the complications and the mark to market within the portfolio.     Then, there's a hybrid separate account product that has features very much like a general account. It has an added credit enhancement that if the carrier were to ever become insolvent the assets within the separate account by legal definitions are segregated from creditors of the insurance carrier so that those assets would only be available to the policy holders. These new asset classes have been pretty popular and have essentially enhanced the options for banks to buy bank owned life insurance.   Kelly: The first generation of BOLI was the general account, no-load product and then the second generation would be some of these the hybrid accounts and some of these more sophisticated product structures. But the core concept was the same, right?   David: That's correct, basically similar structure from a standpoint of no loads, no surrender charges, single premium, just a difference in the chassis if you will.   Kelly: Right, the risk sharing to a certain extent, right, because was the separate account available back then in the early years?   David: You could buy a separate account that was called variable universal life. It was a shelf product, but banks really didn’t buy it then because you had mark to market. Say it was all in a bond fund but the interest rates went up and the value of the bond fund went down five percent you’d have to take an immediate mark to market on your balance sheet and income statement. That was not very attractive to a buyer. If you're a bank you don’t want that kind of volatility on your income statement.   Kelly: Even though that's the nature of a municipal bond portfolio, they have to mark those.   David: A municipal bond portfolio they mark to market, but not through the income statement. They mark to market through the capital account.   Kelly: Right.   David: It doesn’t flow through income.   Kelly: Right.   David: Whereas if you were to do the same thing in a variable universal life insurance contract and have that mark to market risk you’d have to mark that through your income statement because the cash value is changing.   Kelly: One of the things that I noticed about Equias, again this sounds somewhat self-serving, but I’ll say it anyway. This relates to the industry changes. When I see Equias, it just seems to be a highly professional organization. I think eighteen consultants and thirty some support personnel and I believe seven CPAs and a bunch of attorneys, MBA’s that kind of thing. It just seems that one of the things that appears to have happened with Equias having emerged as the key player is the element of professional consulting capabilities versus I would suspect in the early years, and currently, many of potentially our competitors, it's mainly a bunch of insurance guys, right, trying to sell product?  I would think in the early years that's what it was all about, insurance guys trying to sell insurance to a new market…banks.   David: Yes, there was a lot of that. The business model that Equias developed was this is not an area that banks have a lot of expertise in and that they need support services so that they can spend a minimal amount of their time dealing with the technical stuff and don’t have to pay a lot to CPA firms and law firms to help them through the process.     We set up the firm with the idea that we could provide those services at costs that are competitive with anybody in the marketplace. Through volume we could provide more services and all the technical services that a bank would need, but do it in a very cost effective way. That’s where we actually have eight CPAs and two attorneys and a former OCC regulator, former bankers, bank directors, and a former head of the BOLI area for one of the major insurance carriers.     We've staffed our firm with very, very experienced, competent, technical people including the consultants are all very experienced, so that we could be a real asset to the banks. It'd be hard for our competitors to match our knowledge and experience and to duplicate what we can do.   Kelly: One of the things that got my attention was I think you're one of the few that has a SOC 1, Type 2 audit. Not many insurance “agencies” have that kind of thing going on. That was a good plus in my mind with you guys.   David: Yeah, it covers our implementation process, as well as our administration process, and covers not only the BOLI side of it, but covers the nonqualified benefits side. We’ve set up internal controls when we established the company and we followed those controls. We've been able to go through the audit process very efficiently and effectively.   Kelly: I’ll probably be criticized for this being an infomercial for Equias, but what the heck. That's what we can do. All right let's finish with one final thing. I’ll give you the choice. This is a question I ask every guest either your favorite quote or, what I like the best, is tell us what one of the stupidest things you’ve said or done in your business career.   David: One of the early days in my career I remember having gone to this bank to explain BOLI and the nonqualified plans probably for the seventh or eighth time. Some of the Board members were wearing out with me coming back almost it seemed like every month. One of the Board members, who was an attorney, when I came back this time she just looked and “Oh no, not you again.” I said, “Yeah.” She said, “Look, if I vote for this, does that mean you won't come back and you'll leave us alone?” I said, ‘You’ve got my word on that.” I guess in that case persistence paid off.   Kelly: It's good, yeah.   David: It wasn’t one of those real positive “I'm glad to see you” kind of moments.   Kelly: That's right; you got the deal done though.   David: Yeah, I was able to get it done through persistence, not through the sales process really.   Kelly: Yeah, that's good. All right, David, thanks for your time. I appreciate it.   We want to thank you for listening to the syndicated audio program, BankBosun.com The audio content is produced by Kelly Coughlin, Chief Executive Officer of BankBosun, LLC;  and syndicated by Seth Greene, Market Domination LLC, with the help of Kevin Boyle. Video content is produced by The Guildmaster Studio, Keenan Bobson Boyle. The voice introduction is me, Karim Kronfli. The program is hosted by Kelly Coughlin. If you like this program, please tell us. If you don’t, please tell us how we can improve it. Now, some disclaimers. Kelly is licensed with the Minnesota State Board of Accountancy as a Certified Public Accountant.   Kelly provides bank owned life insurance portfolio and nonqualified benefit services to banks across the United States.  The views expressed here are solely those of Kelly Coughlin and his guests in their private capacity and do not in any other way represent the views of any other agent, principal, employer, employee, vendor or supplier of Kelly Coughlin.  

Kelly Coughlin interviews Donald Moore about generating more revenues from trust and wealth management clients and managing risk in that business line. Moore is a former OCC examiner.   Donald Moore Jr., CEO of Bearmoor, LLC has over 20 years of experience in the asset management and fiduciary industry. He has served in senior fiduciary positions with various US Treasury agencies, as well as a leading financial services consulting firm. He began his career as a Trust Examiner with Office of the Comptroller of the Currency. He has examined over 50 trust divisions, including the lead position at two of the nation’s largest trust institutions. He has assisted in the development of national policy and guidelines at both the Comptroller’s Office and the Office of Thrift Supervision. Kelly Coughlin is CEO of BankBosun, a management consulting firm helping bank C-Level Officers navigate risk and discover reward. He is the host of the syndicated audio podcast, BankBosun.com. Kelly brings over 25 years of experience with companies like PWC, Lloyds Bank, and Merrill Lynch. On the podcast Kelly interviews key executives in the banking ecosystem to provide bank C-Suite officers, risk management, technology, and investment ideas and solutions to help them navigate risks and discover rewards. And now your host, Kelly Coughlin. Kelly: I’ve got Don Moore CEO of Bearmoor LLC. Don, how are you doing? Don: I’m doing well, thank you Kelly, I appreciate the opportunity to chat with you today. Kelly: Don, you’re in Boulder? Don: I’m not quite in the Republic of Boulder, I’m a little bit closer to the Breckenridge area up in the hills of Colorado. Kelly: You’re happy because the Broncos just won the Super Bowl, I take it. Don: I’m slightly indifferent to the Broncos winning, although they had their ginormous parade yesterday down in Denver. Everyone’s excited that Peyton got his Super Bowl, but again, I think it was the defense that won it for him. Yeah, we’re happy here in the state. No one’s going off the edge yet. Kelly: Let’s get right into it. Tell me what Bearmoor does. What’s your value proposition? Don: Basically, it’s the optimization of risk-adjusted revenue from an organization’s existing fiduciary activities portfolio. It’s basically their personal trusts, their investment management accounts, their retirement accounts, foundation endowments and custody. All those off-balance-sheet activities within the fiduciary world. Again, the optimization of their risk-adjusted revenue from their existing portfolio. Kelly: First of all, it’s banks that are in the wealth management business. They have trusts, they have wealth management capabilities, correct? Don: Correct, a lot of organizations that are clients, their definition of wealth management differs, but it does include trusts, insurance, and private banking. Kelly: You help those kind of banks do what? Don: Optimize top-line revenue. What we mean by that is, I like to use a quote from Bono, the lead singer for U2, he was up at his concert and doing one of his social announcements where he was clapping his hands and he said, “Do you know, every time I clap my hands, a child in Africa dies?” And someone screamed out, “Stop clapping your hands.” We don’t focus in on expense because for the past 10 years in the industry, the industry’s been focused on nothing but expenses. The expenses have outpaced revenue growth 6 out of the last 10 years. Their focus on expenses I don’t think, has been all that fantastic. We like to say, “Well you’re already focused on expense reduction, we want to help you grow top-line revenues.” Our value proposition leads to an increase to revenue top-line. Kelly: Before we get into how you do that, let’s talk about some personal background. Don: All right, I’ll start out with education. I went to school, got a degree in finance and accounting, after I graduated from that I went to work for the United States Treasury Department as an examiner with the Office of the Comptroller. The currency, the OCC, I found an opportunity to begin examining in the fiduciary world and I became a fiduciary examiner. Through that, I went to Washington, DC. For those of you in the fiduciary world that have an understanding of Regulation 9, when I was in Washington, DC I helped draft and write that regulation that now national banks follow. For most states, it’s been adopted verbatim on that. I left there, and went over to another Treasury Department, the Office of Trust Supervision, which has now been rolled into the OCC and wrote their fiduciary training program and some of their examination procedures over there in a fellowship capacity of 18 months before leaving and going to the consulting world, and focused on consulting in the fiduciary world, and that brings us to where we are right now. I am married to my wife Toni, we live out here in Colorado, we have four children. Hobbies; I would say right now we’re doing lots of skiing, got some good snow out here in Colorado, so that’s one of my hobbies. Do a lot of running, outdoor activities is me. That’s who I am, I’m 52 years old and I feel it every day. Kelly: Don and I have known each other for probably 15 years, and we made a good connection when we found out you grew up in Minnesota, correct? St. Louis Park? Don: Yeah, sure, you betcha. Kelly: Let’s talk about the business. How do you help these banks make money? How do you help a wealth management bank make some money? I want to come up with let’s say five take-aways on how our listeners can make money through what company like yours offer. Don: Let’s start out with, the opportunities for increasing top-line revenue within your fiduciary activities exist. They are out there. I like to use the phrase, “You’re standing on a whale, fishing for minnows,” because there’s already opportunities to increase your top-line revenue within our organization. What we mean by that is we go through and do an analysis account by account basis and identify opportunities in three phases: one, gap analysis which is, “Hey, where are you missing it?” From the standpoint of what you think you’re getting. You may have some system errors, system inaccuracies that can help you identify opportunities, that’s one phase. Second one is competitive analysis. Where is it that you would like to beat your competition, and where is it that you actually are? We ask you what your business’s strategic plans are, we go out and do mystery shopping and competitive shopping for the organization to make sure that they understand where they are and where their competition is, and where they can go with their current level of pricing. The third analysis is a regulatory analysis. What’s changed in regulation that allows you to either understand the regulation and generate additional revenue, or do we have some risk there? Again, gap analysis, competitive analysis, regulatory analysis to help you identify those opportunities, because they do exist. I would say that’s the first area. Kelly: You exposed that just recently, gap analysis. You’re looking at pricing, and how competitive they might be in pricing in addition to more of a qualitative, these are the type of services they would offer? Don: Along the lines of both, Kelly, with regards to the types of services we want to break it down so we understand the types of services they offer. Then the pricing that they have on each of those services. When we talk about pricing, we all know that there are committees, and then there are boards, and we’re talking about the board-approved pricing for these services. Kelly: This is for wealth management services. These are the basis points. This is how much we charge for a $5,000,000 fiduciary trust account, correct? Don: Correct. Absolutely. Those are established by, I would say, the business line which then goes to the committee and the boards approve. These are the pricing and it would include not just basis points, but it would include minimum account fees, it would include fees for ancillary services such as real estate administration, closely held business administration. Maybe there’s a tax prep fee or a tax information letter fee. Maybe there’s a stand-alone fee for extraordinary type services. All the fees charged for the services provided within wealth management on the fee schedule. We then go through and see what accounts are actually on that schedule, and what accounts are not, what accounts have customization, what accounts have discounts. It doesn’t make sense for the level of service being provided. What’s critical with that, from a Bearmoor perspective, is what I would say would be the second take-away, which would be a risk understanding of your accounts. If you haven’t done a risk assessment on an account by account basis, it would be highly recommended that you do so. This would allow you to identify the level of risk for each account and type of account using system information. This isn’t something that’s subjective, it’s based upon system criteria that you’ve established and put risk weightings on it. Let’s say you have an account that is an irrevocable trust account with two co-trustees, five beneficiaries, some unique assets in there, and maybe it’s over $2,500,000. You would assign various risk criteria to each one of those factors. Maybe that has a higher risk than a revocable trust. Kelly: You’re not talking about portfolio risk, you’re talking about risk of an unhappy client (other than portfolio volatility). Don: Correct. What we’re seeing is a fair amount of, I hate to go back to the regulatory side, but a fair amount of regulators are saying, “Hey, we can risk rate loan accounts on the banking side, why can’t we individually risk rate these off-balance-sheet trust accounts from an administration standpoint, from a level of risk?” and then get some understanding about what may be some levels of capital might be for this entire portfolio. It’s not investment portfolio risk management, for lack of a better term it’s complexity rating the account. Kelly: Give us three things that you like to look at, that might go into the calculus of that. Don: I would say type of account. Kelly: The fiduciary, non-fiduciary. Don: Correct, you would have the fiduciary accounts would be those revvocable and irrevocable trusts, investment management accounts, foundation endowments, IRAs. Then the non-fiduciary lower risk would be a custody account, where you don’t have any investment management responsibilities. Another item would be the type of assets in there, so maybe less risk would be a mutual fund portfolio, that’s made up of a bunch of mutual funds to meet the account’s objective. A higher risk would be, “Hey, it’s a stand-alone investment in a large piece of commercial real estate.” High risk on that. The third thing would be type and/or number of beneficiaries. The larger the beneficiary pool, the more risk you may have because you have different competing objectives. Some of those might be income beneficiaries, others might be remainder beneficiaries, or growth beneficiaries. Kelly: The high-risk account would be one in which there’s a fiduciary relationship to your holding assets that are perhaps individual securities and not mutual funds and the third? Don: Number of beneficiaries. Kelly: Number of beneficiaries. Is that because the more people you have in the equation, the more likely it is you’re going to have somebody complaining about it? Don: More likely there’s going to be a complaint there, but more likely that there’s going to be conflicts of interest. What I mean by that conflicts of interest is those beneficiaries may all have different needs and you as the fiduciary that’s managing that account, have to take all those into consideration and make sure you treat them equitably and fairly based upon the information you have. Kelly: Tell us how you help the bank make more money. Don: From that account by account analysis on the gap analysis and identifying opportunities within their portfolio. Not just from a best practices from what we’ve seen over the past 15 years of doing this, but also what’s taking place within their lines of business and their strategy. Overlaying that on that analysis and saying, “Hey, here is the opportunity, and here’s how that opportunity impacts each account.” Kelly: This is for your part one you look at the market, you look at competitors, and you say, “Oh, your competition’s charging 200 basis points, you’re only charging 150. You could charge 180,” for example. Don: Correct. If you still want to be the low-cost provider and the lowest-cost provider is charging that 200, and you’re at 150, you could go all the way up to that 200 and charge 190, 180. Right. Kelly: Right. Don: Do that complete analysis. Or your minimum fee is stated to be this, we’ve done in a cost analysis of your portfolio and you’re not even covering your costs with your minimum fee. You’ve got to adjust your minimum fee. Kelly: Don’t you think most banks know their competitor? Let’s say pricing, and their level of service, because they either get clients poached frequently, or infrequently, and if they find out why, then it’s well, his is cheaper, or better service, whatever it was. Don’t you think they know that? Don: That’s what we thought. That’s what we were counting on, but when we started doing the mystery shopping, because we asked our clients who are their competitors, who do they want us to mystery shop. Then we also provide them all the other information that we have. That, other than the actual opportunities, was one of the most highly prized pieces of information that we provided to our clients was, “Oh, look at all this competitor information.” My business partner and I looked at each other and said, “Wow, we didn’t realize how valuable this was. We thought you guys knew it, we’re showing it to you to let you know that we know it.” You would think they would know it, but a lot of times that isn’t the case based upon the information that we were able to gather and the reaction that we get from those. I think they have an understanding of it, but once they actually see the documentation and support for that that we’re able to gather, that brings it full circle. Kelly: I’m intrigued by, and I always have been intrigued by you being a former regulator with all due respect to your former profession, the dark side I suppose, or actually I think when you go into industry, they say you’ve gone to the dark side, I believe. However you look at it, how a former regulator can help on the revenue side is always been amusing to me. I know you do have a pretty good reputation out there, so kudos. You’ve been doing it quite a while, I believe. Don: Yeah, I appreciate those comments. Perhaps my capitalistic views weren’t always the right forum to be a regulator, so maybe I’ve always had to get back to this side. Maybe I was on the dark side and came back to the light. Kelly: Any more takeaways? Don: I would say re-acceptance, and what I mean by re-acceptance is, based upon the information that you have today on your existing accounts, the level of administration, the level of responsibility, the potential problems associated with the risk audit compliance items, the regulatory issues, and the revenue that you’re making on it, would you re-accept the accounts in your portfolio today? If the answer to that is no or maybe, you need to actually go through and do this risk assessment and the revenue opportunity assessment to make sure be able to answer that question yes or these are accounts we no longer need to be a part of. Kelly: It isn’t just no longer be part of, it may be no I wouldn’t accept it under these terms. These terms being pricing, but would you accept it at 50 basis points? No. Would you accept at 150? Yes. Isn’t that as much of a relevant question as acceptance or non-acceptance, it’s how should we price this thing? Don: Proper pricing is critical. We have top 10 risk piece that we do and one of the top 10 risks is appropriate pricing, so you’re absolutely right. “Hey, I wouldn’t re-accept it because of the assets.” That’s one thing. I wouldn’t re-accept this because of the price and the assets. Could we price it accordingly where you would accept it? Absolutely. That’s part of the analysis we do. Kelly: Why don’t you post on our website the top 10 risk pieces in a blog post? Don: Absolutely, I can do that. Kelly: That’d be nice to accompany this. That’s it for now, give us your favorite quote. Don: It’s Milton Friedman the great economist. “The question is, do corporate executives, provided that they stay within the law, have responsibilities in their business activities, other than to make as much money for their shareholders as possible?” My answer to that is, no they do not. Basically, everyone should stay focused on generating revenue for the shareholders for where they have their fiduciary duty. Kelly: What’s the stupidest thing you’ve said or done in your business career? Don: This is classic me, and this took a long time to live down. This was years ago. I basically said, I used another quote when I was giving a presentation because someone asked a question with regards to revenue enhancement and I said in front of this entire group, “Life’s tough, but it’s tougher if you’re stupid.” Yep. Kelly: Good one. Don: I was much younger. Kelly: Don, I enjoyed talking to you, thanks so much for your time. We want to thank you for listening to the syndicated audio program, BankBosun.com The audio content is produced by Kelly Coughlin, Chief Executive Officer of BankBosun, LLC; and syndicated by Seth Greene, Market Domination LLC, with the help of Kevin Boyle. Video content is produced by The Guildmaster Studio, Keenan Bobson Boyle. The voice introduction is me, Karim Kronfli. The program is hosted by Kelly Coughlin. If you like this program, please tell us. If you don’t, please tell us how we can improve it. Now, some disclaimers. Kelly is licensed with the Minnesota State Board of Accountancy as a Certified Public Accountant. Kelly provides bank owned life insurance portfolio and nonqualified benefit services to banks across the United States. The views expressed here are solely those of Kelly Coughlin and his guests in their private capacity and do not in any other way represent the views of any other agent, principal, employer, employee, vendor or supplier of Kelly Coughlin.