Podcasts about kelly so

Al and Kelly talk about Ratopia Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:02:24: What Have We Been Up To 00:17:46: Game News 00:25:17: News Games 00:36:08: Ratopia 01:02:56: Outro Links Tales of Seikyu Early Access Sugardew Island Sprinklers Update Outlanders “The Culinry Diaries” DLC Turnip Boy Steals The Mall Cubified Turnip Boy Plush Everdream Valley VR Contact Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:31) Al: Hello, farmers, and welcome to another episode of the harvest season. (0:00:34) Al: My name is Al. (0:00:36) Kelly: And my name is Kelly. (0:00:38) Al: And we are here today to talk about Cottage Core Games. (0:00:42) Al: Woo! (0:00:42) Kelly: Woo! (0:00:45) Al: Uh, welcome back, Kelly. (0:00:47) Al: Always good to have you. (0:00:48) Kelly: It’s always fun to be back. (0:00:50) Kelly: I feel like we talked so recently and yet so long ago. (0:00:55) Kelly: It really wasn’t that long ago. (0:00:56) Al: Let’s have a look. (0:00:57) Al: Your last episode was “Grimoire Groves”, and that was in March. (0:01:01) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:01:02) Al: For two months. (0:01:04) Al: Hmm, I have not played that game since that episode. (0:01:07) Kelly: I completed everything. (0:01:09) Al: Hmm. (0:01:10) Kelly: Everything, everything. (0:01:12) Al: Impressive. (0:01:12) Kelly: And then I put the game down and never picked it back up again. (0:01:14) Al: Hmm, fair. (0:01:16) Al: That’s how I play most games, to be fair. (0:01:16) Kelly: It was fun. (0:01:19) Kelly: Me too. (0:01:19) Kelly: But usually I don’t go full completionist mode. (0:01:23) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:01:24) Kelly: I pick things that I want to complete (0:01:26) Kelly: or give myself goals. (0:01:27) Kelly: Otherwise, I kind of lose motivation sometimes. (0:01:30) Al: Fair enough (0:01:32) Al: And then you were on the fields of then you were on the fields of mystery out before that. Have you played the update? (0:01:32) Kelly: But I was determined. (0:01:37) Kelly: No. (0:01:38) Kelly: I really enjoyed the portion that I played, (0:01:42) Kelly: but I decided that was enough and I’m just (0:01:44) Kelly: going to wait for the full game. (0:01:46) Al: I have done the same also. I was really tempted to jump in in the last update, but I’m like, (0:01:52) Kelly: Mm-hmm yep, that’s why I am I ended up picking up Sunhaven instead (0:01:52) Al: “No, let’s not do it. Let’s not do it. Don’t ruin it for yourself. Wait for the full game.” (0:02:00) Al: Yes. Well, let’s get into that then. So, just before we get into that, (0:02:02) Kelly: So I was like, you know what that’s a completed game (0:02:08) Al: we’re going to talk about Ratopia, this episode. Ratopia, this episode, because it has just come (0:02:14) Al: out in 1.0. (0:02:16) Al: Kelly has previously played it, so I thought we would talk about that. (0:02:21) Al: Before that, obviously, we’ll have our regular news. (0:02:25) Al: But first of all, Kelly, what have you been up to? (0:02:28) Kelly: “Playing Sunhaven.” (0:02:29) Al: I have questions. (0:02:30) Kelly: Woo! (0:02:31) Kelly: I also got 15 yards of dirt delivered to my driveway (0:02:34) Kelly: so I could fix my backyard. (0:02:36) Kelly: So that’s– (0:02:39) Al: Why is it measured in distance? (0:02:44) Kelly: I don’t have that answer. (0:02:46) Al: So, presumably, it’s like a set thickness, right? (0:02:47) Kelly: Do you know how I had to figure out what 15 yards of dirt was, (0:02:50) Kelly: Al? (0:02:50) Kelly: I had to go on YouTube and watch a video of a dump truck (0:02:53) Kelly: delivering 15 yards of dirt to someone’s driveway. (0:02:59) Kelly: I guess? (0:03:01) Kelly: Because they also do like– (0:03:01) Al: You’re the one that’s had it delivered! (0:03:03) Kelly: yeah, Al, this was through Facebook Market. (0:03:06) Kelly: This is just, I don’t know, the standard measurement (0:03:08) Kelly: that they use, though, because it’s cubic yards and cubic feet (0:03:11) Kelly: are used for soil. (0:03:12) Al: Oh, so it’s cubic yards, not yards. (0:03:17) Kelly: I don’t know, because they only said yards. (0:03:19) Al: Because that’s a bit– because cubic yards is a vol– (0:03:23) Al: Yeah, so it sounds like they’re just automatically (0:03:24) Kelly: It’s probably cubic yards, and I just never considered it. (0:03:25) Al: shortening it then, because cubic yards is a volume. (0:03:28) Al: That’s how you measure something like soil. (0:03:28) Kelly: Yes. (0:03:29) Kelly: Yes, that’s how I do my soil. (0:03:31) Kelly: I do soil calculations in cubic yards. (0:03:34) Kelly: I just didn’t put two and two together because it just (0:03:37) Kelly: straight up said yards. (0:03:38) Al: Yeah, that’s just laziness, I think, on behalf of people selling. (0:03:42) Kelly: Yeah. (0:03:43) Kelly: But no, I literally watched YouTube videos on dirt delivery (0:03:46) Kelly: to figure out how much dirt this would be. (0:03:48) Al: Although, I also have a question about that, because this is a thing that Americans do (0:03:55) Al: a lot, is you measure things by volume, when that can be very inaccurate for certain things. (0:03:58) Kelly: Yes. Yeah. Yes. (0:04:02) Al: It’s all very well and good measuring liquids by volume, because they stay the same. You’re (0:04:08) Kelly: Yeah. (0:04:08) Al: not going to add extra air in between grains of water. Yeah. Yeah. (0:04:10) Kelly: No, listen, I do a lot of baking. (0:04:14) Kelly: All of my baking is done by weight. (0:04:18) Kelly: I convert recipes all the time. (0:04:18) Al: Yeah. (0:04:22) Kelly: I’m pretty sure that they do it this way so that they can, like… (0:04:24) Kelly: Okay, this is free dirt, so it’s like… (0:04:26) Al: Okay, yeah. (0:04:28) Kelly: trash as it is. (0:04:30) Kelly: But it’s like, clearly they want to do it by volume and not weight (0:04:32) Kelly: so that they can give me things like a two foot long concrete rock (0:04:36) Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. (0:04:36) Kelly: inside of my dirt pile. (0:04:40) Kelly: You know, like, that’s… (0:04:42) Kelly: I don’t know about the other things, (0:04:44) Kelly: because I’m assuming when people buy nice soil, (0:04:46) Kelly: they’re not getting giant rocks in their nice soil. (0:04:49) Al: Yeah, I. (0:04:50) Kelly: But I think… I think it’s… it’s a… (0:04:54) Kelly: I think that’s part of it. I don’t know. (0:04:56) Al: You weren’t buying high quality topside, well, that’s for sure. (0:04:58) Kelly: You know, it’s free dirt. (0:05:00) Al: But yeah, the baking one is funny, right? (0:05:02) Al: Because I understand the want to do it in volume, right? (0:05:05) Al: Like there’s a lot of cooking that I do (0:05:07) Al: where I do it by volume because it’s quicker, right? (0:05:08) Kelly: Yes, yeah. (0:05:09) Al: Like I quite often I quite often will make like (0:05:13) Al: I do like oat breakfast cookies quite often and I’ll just I’ll just use one (0:05:19) Al: of my measuring spoons and I’ll just like throw half a cup into a bowl, right? (0:05:24) Kelly: - Yeah. (0:05:24) Al: Because it’s quick and it’s dirty and it (0:05:26) Al: doesn’t really matter because if it’s slightly off, it’s fine. (0:05:27) Kelly: You’re getting cookies no matter what. (0:05:29) Al: Exactly, right? (0:05:30) Kelly: - Yeah, exactly. (0:05:31) Al: It does the job. (0:05:31) Al: But like when you’re if I’m if I’m baking a cake, like, you know, I’m I’m weighing (0:05:36) Al: out that flour, right, I cannot but you’ll see recipes online all the time. (0:05:36) Kelly: - Yep, yeah, oh yeah. (0:05:40) Al: And it’s like a cup of flour. (0:05:42) Al: And I’m like, first of all, first of all, there is no single standard cup. (0:05:46) Al: Did you know our cups are different than your cups? (0:05:48) Kelly: Yes. That’s what pisses me off. That’s what pisses me off when like a lot of good baking (0:05:49) Al: Fun, isn’t that super fun to learn about after I’ve spent following American (0:05:54) Al: recipes for years? (0:05:59) Kelly: recipes will include both the the grams or whatever ounces and then also yeah the ones (0:06:02) Al: Yes. You click the little button and it will change them. Yes, it’s nice. I like that. (0:06:09) Kelly: that don’t are so questionable because it’s like well did you pack the flour when you put in the (0:06:14) Al: Yeah, exactly. (0:06:15) Kelly: the cup but do you (0:06:18) Kelly: do our cups match yeah it’s very frustrating it’s very I do a lot of (0:06:20) Al: How irritated is your flower? (0:06:26) Kelly: math when I do baking so it’s very interesting I guess (0:06:28) Al: And this is why I don’t do much baking, because I like cooking where I can just throw things in (0:06:35) Al: and it’ll taste good. And if it doesn’t taste good, I add in something else and it tastes good now. (0:06:41) Al: But baking, if you muck up the measurements, you’re getting a pile of mush. (0:06:42) Kelly: That’s, yeah, I will say, I am definitely doing like a dirty sourdough at the moment for the starter because I used to be very anal and I would measure everything out. (0:06:55) Kelly: And after like, I guess four or five years of doing sourdough starters, I just like, I understand what the consistency needs to be. (0:07:04) Al: Yeah, yeah, that’s very different. (0:07:06) Al: If you’re doing the same thing all the time, you know what it needs to be, (0:07:08) Kelly: Yeah, but there’s definitely some. (0:07:10) Al: and you just get used to that. (0:07:12) Kelly: There are some things that I kind of like mess around with in baking where I think other people might not. (0:07:16) Kelly: And it’s like in the end, it still tastes great. (0:07:20) Kelly: And it’s my little science experiment, you know? (0:07:22) Al: Yeah, I know. For sure. (0:07:24) Kelly: But no, I love cooking and baking for the two different reasons. (0:07:28) Kelly: Like one is my little science chemistry set. (0:07:32) Kelly: And the other one is like throw whatever the hell you want into a pan and see what happens. (0:07:34) Al: Yeah, I like the idea of baking and I sit with a pack of flour in my cupboard and I (0:07:42) Al: watch as it goes out of date, because it’s just like, it’s a whole other mindset you (0:07:49) Al: have to be in before you can actually realistically do that. And that, yeah. I’ve had a recipe (0:07:50) Kelly: - Yes. (0:07:55) Kelly: - Yeah, it’s a different commitment. (0:07:57) Al: for like a specific kind of flatbread for months and I’ve not done it yet. And that’s (0:08:04) Al: all for baking. That’s just bread. (0:08:06) Kelly: Yeah, yeah. (0:08:07) Kelly: No, I’ve been meaning to make a brioche bread for months, (0:08:12) Kelly: and I just keep putting it off because I’m like, (0:08:14) Kelly: I don’t want to deal with it. (0:08:14) Al: There’s so much brain space. (0:08:16) Al: Anyway, Sunhaven. (0:08:17) Kelly: Yes, Sun Even has been a lot of fun. (0:08:20) Al: Pardon me, that’s what we were talking about. (0:08:23) Kelly: I like the different mechanics that they’ve added into it. (0:08:26) Kelly: I enjoy having magic. (0:08:27) Al: Yep. Interesting. (0:08:28) Kelly: I wouldn’t say it’s like the most thrilling farming game. (0:08:32) Kelly: I’ve ever played, but I think it’s overwhelming in a way that keeps my attention. (0:08:38) Kelly: Like having the different farms in different areas. (0:08:42) Al: It’s quite story based as well, isn’t it? (0:08:43) Kelly: Yes, yes, there’s a lot. (0:08:45) Al: How are you finding that? (0:08:47) Kelly: Um, it’s good. (0:08:49) Kelly: I don’t always pay attention to stories and games, so I’m not the best person. (0:08:54) Al: Yeah, same. (0:08:57) Kelly: I will say sometimes I look over to the characters, though, and have my eyes coped at one, I think. (0:09:03) Kelly: You guys don’t have that much clothes on. (0:09:04) Al: I’ve had, I backed this game on Kickstarter and I’ve had it in my Steam library now for (0:09:14) Al: a couple of years. I’ve not done anything with it. I have not, no. I think part of my (0:09:16) Kelly: Have you played it? (0:09:21) Al: problem is there’s like a time frame after a game comes out where if I don’t play a game (0:09:26) Al: in that time period I’m probably never playing it. (0:09:28) Kelly: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and that’s hard because you have games that like you want to play and also (0:09:35) Al: Let me tell you how many games have come out this year, purely farming games. We are currently (0:09:41) Al: at 20. 20 games have come out this year so far. No, actually I’m wrong. 22. No, 24. 25. (0:09:51) Al: 25 games that I am tracking on this game, on this podcast, by the 10th of May. There’s (0:09:54) Kelly: By May. (0:09:59) Al: more coming out in May. There’s another three on the list that are releasing this month. (0:10:03) Kelly: Are they flooding the market? (0:10:06) Al: It’s the Stardew Effect. We’re just at that time period. We are, what is this, eight years (0:10:08) Kelly: It is. (0:10:10) Al: after Stardew got popular? So just everybody’s finishing up their Stardew clones. (0:10:12) Kelly: Yeah. (0:10:18) Kelly: That is very true. (0:10:19) Kelly: And unfortunately, Sunhaven does fall into that. (0:10:24) Kelly: But again, I think it’s not the most unique farming game I’ve (0:10:28) Kelly: ever played, but I do like some of the things that they’ve added. (0:10:31) Kelly: I also just find it comforting. (0:10:33) Kelly: I like a good micromanagy game. (0:10:36) Al: Yeah, yeah, I’ll talk about mine in a minute. (0:10:38) Al: But, yeah, I totally agree with that. (0:10:40) Al: I wonder. (0:10:40) Kelly: And I do like that you don’t spend energy. (0:10:44) Al: Oh, yeah, so we’re going to have to we’re (0:10:46) Al: definitely going to have to talk about this game then (0:10:48) Al: because I am also playing a game which doesn’t have energy. (0:10:54) Kelly: It’s a fun mechanic to like, not worry about. (0:10:54) Al: And that is. (0:10:57) Al: Yeah. (0:10:59) Al: I am very much enjoying it. (0:11:02) Kelly: It’s really nice. (0:11:04) Kelly: Like, oh, there’s still always the time, you know, crunch or whatever. (0:11:06) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:11:07) Kelly: But like, oh, I don’t have to eat 10,000 apples just because I (0:11:11) Kelly: want to hit a few more rocks. (0:11:13) Al: This is the thing that’s always annoyed me about farming games is you’ve got two (0:11:17) Al: limitations, you’ve got the time and the energy and removing one or the other of (0:11:24) Al: them, because Ever After Falls, which is what I’m playing and Sunhaven, (0:11:29) Al: which is what you’re playing, both remove the stamina. (0:11:32) Al: but Sugaju Valley, which we’ll talk about in the news section, (0:11:36) Al: it removed the time aspect where it’s essentially turn based. (0:11:41) Al: So you do your stuff and then you there’s two phases to the day. (0:11:45) Al: There’s the day phase and the night phase. (0:11:48) Al: And the night phase is when you open the shop. (0:11:51) Al: So it’s like you do whatever you want to do and then you go and open the shop. (0:11:54) Al: And then when you close the shop, it’s bedtime. (0:11:58) Kelly: that’s sick yeah yeah yeah sometimes bad games yeah it’s um which I think you (0:11:59) Al: So I like the… (0:12:01) Al: I mean, it’s not a good game, it’s a bad game. (0:12:03) Al: But it was interest that was that was an interest. (0:12:06) Al: Interesting thing and I like the games are now trying to play around with these things a little bit more. (0:12:13) Kelly: know that’s one of the things that we benefit from at like at the time point (0:12:17) Kelly: we’re in post stardew is like obviously that a lot of copies came out but I (0:12:24) Kelly: I think we’re really starting to see people like try to change (0:12:28) Al: Mm hmm. Yeah. So we’ll see. We’ll see how those things go. But OK, so you’re enjoying Sun Haven. (0:12:36) Kelly: Yes, I have put over 100 hours into it so far. (0:12:39) Al: Let me schedule that episode then. Sun Haven. Kelly. We’ll see when we do that. (0:12:48) Kelly: You know, you’re the reason I actually picked it up, I think, is because we were talking (0:12:50) Al: I’ve been meaning to play it for so long. Maybe I can event. Maybe I can finally play it if I’ve got (0:12:55) Al: a date to record on it. Aha! (0:12:58) Al: Right, OK. Was it in the news then? (0:12:59) Kelly: about it during the grimoire podcast. (0:13:06) Kelly: Probably I don’t know. (0:13:07) Kelly: I know it got mentioned. (0:13:08) Kelly: It was probably like a brief mentioning, but I think it was the news. (0:13:10) Al: many things, come on. Well I have obviously been playing Ratopia, I’ve only been playing the demo, (0:13:13) Kelly: So you influenced me, congrats. (0:13:22) Al: we’ll get to that later, but yeah I’ve been playing the demo of Ratopia. I’ve also been (0:13:29) Al: playing Ever After Falls and I have put in about 60 hours in that game so far, so it hooked me. (0:13:34) Kelly: What, what’s, what’s that one? (0:13:37) Al: So that’s just another stardew clone, but it um (0:13:40) Al: Obviously, as I said, it doesn’t have the stamina aspect, but it’s, let’s see, how would I describe, so it’s premise is slightly different, where you die at the beginning of the game, and then wake up and turns out that your real life was a simulation, and now you’re in another world with a farm. (0:14:06) Kelly: Oh, interesting. So really planning on people’s simpsychosis fears. (0:14:11) Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And it’s very solid, I would say, probably much like what you’re talking about with Sunhaven. It’s like a solid farming game, and it has definitely caught that bug that I have for I must do this thing, and I’m building up this farm, and that is what I’m doing. (0:14:37) Al: And I’ve been enjoying that. (0:14:40) Al: And I have some things to talk about it that I’m going to talk about in a future (0:14:43) Al: episode that I found interesting, but I think if you’d like Stardew and you’ve (0:14:49) Al: been like, I must have another one and I’m done with Stardew, (0:14:52) Al: I want a different list. (0:14:54) Al: It’s a pretty solid one. (0:14:55) Kelly: The graphics look really cute. (0:14:57) Al: Yeah, that’s what initially grabbed me in. (0:14:59) Al: And the animation of it is fun as well, like your character’s arms are not (0:15:03) Al: attached to the body and they can swing really funny as you walk around. (0:15:08) Al: And there’s a few other things like you’ve (0:15:10) Al: seen these that you can catch and put them on things and you’ll get like wood or (0:15:14) Al: or without actually cutting the thing down. (0:15:17) Al: And that’s kind of like around it’s trying to encourage sustainability. (0:15:18) Kelly: Oh, that’s cool. (0:15:21) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:15:22) Al: So, yeah, there’s a few bits and pieces. (0:15:22) Kelly: Yeah, but it’s that solid game. (0:15:27) Kelly: Sometimes you don’t need anything innovative or crazy (0:15:29) Al: Yeah. Yeah. (0:15:30) Kelly: different. (0:15:30) Kelly: It’s just a nice, comforting game. (0:15:34) Al: So that’s what I’ve mostly been playing. (0:15:37) Al: I have also, so two picks earlier came out and I had backed that game. (0:15:42) Al: So this is like a life sim in a kind of stardew style, (0:15:48) Al: but it’s much more, it’s almost, I guess, GTA-esque. (0:15:54) Kelly: I was gonna say it looks like kind of reminds me of like I don’t want to say sim city but like (0:16:00) Al: I guess it would be some city if you were actually controlling an individual. (0:16:00) Kelly: something like that (0:16:04) Kelly: yeah that’s that’s which I guess is kind of like the ratopia of also (0:16:10) Al: Yeah, I think it’s different from that in so much as like you don’t have any control (0:16:15) Al: over anyone else. You’re just living your own life, but you can you can do crime and (0:16:16) Kelly: Mmm. (0:16:20) Al: stuff like that. What I will say is I’ve not properly played it because it doesn’t have (0:16:21) Kelly: Okay, that’s cool. That’s fun. (0:16:27) Al: controller support. So later, I play on my Steam Deck. (0:16:30) Kelly: Oh, you don’t do mouse and keyboard. (0:16:35) Kelly: Ah, that’s crazy. (0:16:36) Kelly: I didn’t consider that, that… (0:16:38) Kelly: Why would they put anything on the Steam Deck (0:16:40) Kelly: that doesn’t have… (0:16:40) Al: Well, anything on Steam goes on the Steam Deck by default, and most games coming out (0:16:43) Kelly: Yeah, no, I understand that, but like… (0:16:47) Al: now will have controller support. It’s a good question as to why it doesn’t have controller (0:16:52) Al: support yet, and I do not know the answer. They have said that they’re adding controller (0:16:56) Al: support soon, but yeah, I’m just like, why, why, why? (0:16:57) Kelly: okay hopefully like I get what you’re saying like obviously they push everything from steam to it (0:17:03) Kelly: but like you would think that there would be like some kind of filter like (0:17:08) Al: They have a compatibility thing and it’s and it currently has an unknown compatibility (0:17:12) Al: for Steam Deck. (0:17:13) Kelly: okay (0:17:14) Al: So. (0:17:15) Al: But whatever. (0:17:16) Al: Yeah. (0:17:17) Al: I opened it up. (0:17:18) Al: Went. (0:17:19) Kelly: yeah that’s that’s fair that’s very fair (0:17:19) Al: Yeah. (0:17:20) Al: Nope. (0:17:21) Al: We closed it. (0:17:24) Al: I’ll try again once you’ve added controller support, please and thank you. (0:17:28) Al: So, yeah, that’s. (0:17:30) Kelly: Interesting concept though. (0:17:31) Al: Yeah. (0:17:32) Al: Yeah. (0:17:33) Al: Well, I want to try it. (0:17:34) Al: That’s the thing. (0:17:35) Al: Like what it is saying it’s doing (0:17:38) Al: It has mixed reviews on Steam just now. (0:17:40) Al: So who knows how that will go, but (0:17:42) Kelly: Well, you know. You gotta try stuff. (0:17:43) Al: we’ll see. (0:17:46) Al: All right, let’s talk about some news. (0:17:48) Kelly: Yay! News! (0:17:50) Al: Tales, Tales of Saikyu. (0:17:56) Kelly: I think sake you, but like, also, I’m not a- (0:18:00) Al: This is the game where you turn into Yoko, Yoko, Yoko. (0:18:06) Kelly: Yokai? (0:18:08) Al: This game is where you turn into Yoko for getting around and dealing with your crops and stuff like that. (0:18:09) Kelly: Taseku, mess you up. (0:18:21) Al: You have a whole bunch of different abilities for turning into different Yokai that have different abilities to do these things. (0:18:30) Al: Yeah, yeah, I haven’t decided whether I want to play this or not, but it is a thing. (0:18:36) Al: and they’ve announced that their early access is coming. (0:18:38) Al: I don’t think this was a Kickstarter, so I won’t have backed it, so don’t buy it. (0:18:40) Kelly: Oh, very soon. (0:18:53) Al: I’m telling myself that, not other people. (0:18:56) Al: I can’t be trusted. (0:18:57) Al: Yeah, not much else to say about that, they’ve just announced their early access is coming. (0:19:03) Al: One thing I didn’t check is what they’re expecting in terms of how long. (0:19:08) Al: Because that’s always an interesting thing is how long they say they’re going to be in (0:19:11) Al: early access for. (0:19:13) Al: They’re expecting it to be about a year, so I suspect two and a half years. (0:19:18) Kelly: That sounds like good math. (0:19:24) Al: Next we have another update for Sugaju Island. (0:19:27) Al: So this game is bad game, don’t buy this game, don’t play this game, but they are making (0:19:32) Al: it less bad. (0:19:34) Al: Maybe someday it will be less bad enough that it will be worth buying, it probably won’t (0:19:38) Al: be. (0:19:39) Al: So in this update they’ve added sprinklers, so you can have sprinklers on the farm. (0:19:45) Al: Yay. (0:19:46) Kelly: And you can discover seashells. (0:19:46) Al: It’s such a, yeah, wow, I just, what, well, lackluster updates for lackluster game, that’s (0:19:47) Kelly: How exciting. (0:19:53) Kelly: This is like really lackluster updates. (0:19:55) Kelly: I’m sorry. (0:19:59) Al: what I would say. (0:20:02) Al: I don’t, they’ve also added key bindings support, so you can change your key bindings, which (0:20:06) Al: Good, I’m glad. (0:20:08) Al: You should have had that at lunch. I find this game so fascinating, (0:20:14) Al: because it feels so much like we need to do a farming game, so let’s do a farming game. (0:20:21) Al: And the only interesting thing about it was the turn-based time in the day. It is, (0:20:28) Kelly: Which is like a really cool concept, which is that sounds so interesting. (0:20:32) Al: but… but he’s just not good. (0:20:34) Kelly: They put all their effort into that one concept and nothing else. (0:20:38) Al: They’ve marked this as a major update on Steam. That is something. Uh, yeah. (0:20:46) Kelly: I mean, I’m going to just say this like then I think the name alone implies to me that there’s not a lot of effort going on here. (0:20:54) Al: Oh Kelly, you probably haven’t listened to last week’s episode have you? (0:20:57) Al: There were two new games in last week’s episode that were called Sunseed Island and Starsand Island. (0:21:08) Kelly: We got to start like putting a ban on certain words for farm game (0:21:14) Al: Known, known, island or valley. Yeah, this is… (0:21:18) Kelly: If you have “do” in your name. (0:21:24) Al: Good changes to the game, but that does not make a good game. (0:21:31) Al: I cannot see how either of these three tiny things in this major update would (0:21:39) Al: change this game from being bad to being good. I have no interest in opening that game again. (0:21:48) Kelly: Definitely good to know. I was very intrigued when you mentioned the turn-based, and very (0:21:52) Kelly: disappointed when you immediately followed up with that it’s a bad game. (0:21:54) Al: here lies the problem. They do have a demo. Feel free to try the demo. I mean, some people (0:22:01) Al: like it, apparently, there are some positive reviews. Apparently, it’s mostly positive. (0:22:07) Al: I don’t know how. I really don’t know. So, like, every recommended person is like, oh, (0:22:08) Kelly: Are they paying these people? (0:22:17) Al: it’s so nice. And they’re like, but it’s not. And all the not recommended is like, it is (0:22:23) Al: the most boring farming game. (0:22:24) Al: With so few features, it feels like a proof of concept and then they didn’t add the rest of the game. (0:22:36) Kelly: I don’t know how Steam reviews work. (0:22:38) Al: You just have to own it, I think. (0:22:42) Kelly: Yeah, but like, I think it tells you, right, if like, they got it for free. (0:22:44) Al: Oh, good question. Purchase type. Steam purchases and other. So other would be free ones. (0:22:53) Kelly: That’s what I would think, but like I meant more so too on like the, oh, no, nevermind. (0:22:58) Kelly: 230 people found this review helpful. (0:23:02) Al: Oh, is that the not recommended one at the top? (0:23:04) Kelly: Yeah. (0:23:06) Al: I can’t believe I put 12 hours into this game, absolutely mad. (0:23:09) Kelly: That’s a lot of hours. (0:23:10) Al: It’s a lot of hours for a bad game. (0:23:13) Al: All right, yeah, I’m going to start bashing this game. (0:23:14) Kelly: Next. (0:23:16) Al: Moving on, Outlanders have announced a new DLC, The Culinary Diaries. (0:23:23) Al: It looks like it’s a food based story addition to the game. (0:23:29) Al: This is a town building strategy game. (0:23:31) Kelly: OK, it looks like a short hike or the goose game. (0:23:36) Al: Yeah, I mean, graphics wise, yeah, it’s very much management style game, though, rather (0:23:38) Kelly: Yes, yeah, that’s what I’m basing that off of entirely. (0:23:44) Kelly: OK. (0:23:45) Al: than I have not. There’s too many games to play them all. But yeah, it looks like it’s (0:23:47) Kelly: Have you played this one? (0:23:55) Al: added a whole bunch of cooking stuff. So if you enjoy this game, there you go. You got (0:24:01) Al: a new update? A new DLC? Or is it paid? That’s a good question, I should check that. (0:24:06) Al: It is… No, it’s not free. It is $5. It is not bad. They’ve got quite a few DLCs, (0:24:06) Kelly: It’s free, maybe. (0:24:13) Kelly: Oh, that’s not bad. (0:24:17) Al: which is interesting. They’re all $5. Yeah, they also have very positive rating on Steam. (0:24:18) Kelly: I noticed that it seems like they’re, they have quite the DLC (0:24:29) Al: None of that tells as much, because it’s Sugaju Island, Suga Valley, whatever, I don’t care. (0:24:30) Kelly: - I think no. (0:24:37) Al: Had a positive, quite positive, was it? Or something like that? I don’t know. It was positive for some reason. (0:24:46) Kelly: But I mean, like, I feel like generally, obviously, (0:24:49) Kelly: that’s not true for everything. (0:24:51) Kelly: Games that tend to put out consistent DLC content, (0:24:55) Kelly: like, there’s something good going on. (0:24:57) Al: Yeah, it has twenty nine thumbs up on the Steam post and zero comments. (0:25:03) Al: So you’ve not got a whole bunch of people (0:25:05) Al: complaining about it being paid, which implies to me that some people are (0:25:10) Al: excited to buy it. (0:25:10) Kelly: Yeah. And again, for $5, it’s not a bad addition. (0:25:14) Al: Five dollars. (0:25:17) Al: All right, next, we have some new games to talk about. (0:25:21) Al: First up, we have turnip bill. (0:25:25) Al: Words, words. (0:25:25) Kelly: You’re not having a good day with the, I’m immediately adding this one to my wish list (0:25:27) Al: Fail me, Callie. (0:25:33) Al: Turnip Boy steals them all. (0:25:36) Al: Uh, have you played any Turnip Boy game? (0:25:39) Kelly: I have not, um, not out of like not wanting to, but like just life. (0:25:45) Al: So turn it by commits tax evasion is great fun. It’s it’s a really good (0:25:51) Al: small (0:25:53) Al: RPG and I really liked that game turn it by Rob’s a bank is (0:26:00) Al: similar in terms of its action (0:26:02) Al: But it is a roguelite (0:26:06) Kelly: Oh, interesting. So not for Al. (0:26:08) Al: I (0:26:09) Al: Mean I I played it. I want to see how many hours I put into it. I put in (0:26:11) Kelly: Yeah. (0:26:15) Al: I played it on the switch not steam apparently (0:26:18) Al: So I would need to I would need to look on my switch, which I’m not doing right now (0:26:23) Al: I (0:26:26) Al: Finished the game. I completed it which I haven’t done for many many roguelites (0:26:35) Kelly: says a lot. I didn’t realize how new these games were though. That’s crazy that they’ve put out (0:26:40) Kelly: three games in like four years. (0:26:43) Al: Yeah, 10 hours is apparently what I put into it to complete the game. (0:26:48) Kelly: Oh, that’s, that’s a, that’s like a solid cute little short game. (0:26:52) Al: Yeah, well, that’s the thing about them. They’re not super long, (0:26:55) Al: you know, you’re not looking at 50 hours, you’re looking at up to 10. (0:27:00) Al: With Turnip Boy commits to excavation, I 100% did it. I didn’t 100% (0:27:05) Al: rob the bank, but I did complete the story. I completed that run, completed that run. (0:27:12) Al: Which is enough. (0:27:13) Al: For a roguelite, for me, considering I only got a third of the way through a run in Hades. (0:27:27) Al: Defeated the first boss, then died in the next level and went “I’m not playing that boss again”. (0:27:36) Kelly: Where’s your dedication to pain? (0:27:40) Al: Nowhere. So yes, right. Okay, so this is a new Turnip Boy game. Don’t get excited. It is not an (0:27:46) Al: RPG. It is not like the previous Turnip Boy games. It is an endless runner for some reason. (0:27:55) Kelly: Very, you know, they found like their niche little like theme with the turnip boy, but like it’s very interesting that each game is different. (0:28:04) Al: Yeah, so what I’ve said in my notes here is, I’ll buy and play a new Turn It By game, right? (0:28:13) Al: Because I like Turn It By, but I’m a little bit disappointed that it’s a third game and (0:28:19) Al: it’s not like the first, because yeah, the second one was different, but it was the same (0:28:24) Al: as well. (0:28:25) Al: Like it was a roguelite, but it was still like a combat game in the same way that the (0:28:31) Al: other one was, right? (0:28:32) Al: The controls were the same, you controlled the player. (0:28:34) Al: The same, you still had a weapon in the same way, and there weren’t as many puzzles, right? (0:28:40) Al: The first one had more puzzles, but it was still there was the same combat and stuff like that. (0:28:46) Al: And this is very much not that. So I’m a little bit sad about that. (0:28:53) Al: I guess that’s fine, you know, they can do what they want. But yeah, I’m gonna buy it, I’m gonna (0:29:00) Al: to play it and I’m sure I’ll enjoy it but I want another turnip by turnip (0:29:04) Al: I was so good, it was funny (0:29:06) Kelly: I’ve literally only heard good things about it. Like, you know, it’s I feel like they (0:29:11) Kelly: really like turn a boy made himself into a thing. (0:29:14) Al: Turnaby commits tax evasion was a lovely RPG that you could 100% in 10 hours, and it was funny. (0:29:20) Al: It had a fun little story. It had some good combat that was actually challenging, (0:29:24) Al: especially near the end. And it was good fun. Turnaby robs a bank, had the challenging combat, (0:29:30) Al: and it had some of the funny story. And other than that, it missed the rest of it. (0:29:34) Al: And this presumably will have the same humor. But that’s it. And (0:29:38) Kelly: But that’s it. (0:29:39) Kelly: So they’re just slowly degrading. (0:29:44) Al: I feel bad saying that, because I suspect it’s not like they’re making this instead of another (0:29:50) Al: RPG, right? Like, I think they had a good idea for doing this. And they’ve done it as Turnaby. (0:29:57) Al: I’m just like, when I saw there’s a new Turnaby game, I went, “Oh, yes, great!” (0:30:01) Al: And I looked at it and went, “This is nothing like them at all.” (0:30:04) Kelly: Yeah. No, I was just being a little cynical, but I agree. (0:30:09) Kelly: I think that’s they’re just trying different avenues. (0:30:14) Kelly: It’s not like, oh, this is like a quick grab or something. (0:30:16) Al: Yeah, yeah, no, I get that. But yeah, I’m not saying it’s going to be a bad game. It’s (0:30:20) Al: just one of these things where it’s like, if you would hear, oh, you know, say you didn’t (0:30:25) Al: know about Silksong, right? And you heard Silksong’s coming out. It’s a new, a new Hollow Knight (0:30:33) Al: game. You’re like, oh, fantastic, exciting. And then it turns out it’s Solitaire. Right? (0:30:40) Kelly: Yeah, that would Yeah, yeah, that’s very true (0:30:41) Al: That’s essentially what we’ve had here. (0:30:44) Al: OK. (0:30:46) Al: Like I’m not saying it’s a bad game, I just saw new turnip game, excited. (0:30:50) Kelly: You want her to play, yeah (0:30:51) Al: It’s not that, that’s the problem. (0:30:54) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, no, that’s that’s the hard part (0:30:55) Al: And I guess this is the problem with spin-offs and stuff like that, right? (0:30:59) Al: Because this is what this is, it’s a spin-off, it’s not a sequel, it’s a spin-off. (0:31:02) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:31:03) Al: And I’m not saying they can’t do that, I’m just like, my expectations going in was different (0:31:09) Al: and I don’t know how they solve that problem, but that’s where we are. (0:31:14) Kelly: Well, maybe they’re working on that perfect Turnip Boy sequel in the back end. (0:31:20) Al: Well, they’re working on a different game just now as well, Hobknobbers, (0:31:26) Al: which I don’t think is out yet. (0:31:27) Al: Let me check. (0:31:27) Al: Yeah, it’s not. (0:31:28) Al: It’s still coming soon. (0:31:29) Al: So I suspect that the Hobknobbers is their upcoming big game and (0:31:37) Al: Turnip Boy steals them all as a let’s do a quick and easy, fun, endless (0:31:37) Kelly: - This is the, mm-hmm. (0:31:42) Al: runner that some people can buy and it will help our cash reserves. (0:31:49) Al: Well, speaking of their cash. (0:31:50) Al: It deserves, they’re also releasing a cubified turnip boy plushie. (0:31:53) Kelly: It’s so cute though and they have to reach their funded goal. (0:31:56) Al: I don’t need it. (0:32:00) Al: It’s $40! (0:32:01) Al: Oh my word, $40? (0:32:05) Al: This thing better be huge, how big is this? (0:32:07) Al: It’s 35 centimetres tall, so it is reasonably big, but that’s a lot of money. (0:32:14) Kelly: But it looks so soft. (0:32:16) Al: What is the shipping going to be to me? (0:32:20) Al: Probably too much. (0:32:20) Kelly: I don’t need this. What is the shipping? (0:32:26) Kelly: How much tariff would I have to pay to receive this? (0:32:30) Al: Oh 15 dollars shipping to me! (0:32:33) Kelly: Ugh. (0:32:34) Al: 55 dollars. (0:32:36) Kelly: Okay, that’s… that’s… (0:32:36) Al: And it is only 40 pounds, but I’m enjoying the dollar has sunk. (0:32:38) Kelly: But he’s so cute. (0:32:50) Kelly: Well, I’m so glad that someone’s benefited. (0:32:58) Kelly: Oh, I see, there is a tariff statement at the top. (0:33:06) Al: I don’t need it anyway so cube turnip cube or cube boy whatever you’d like to call him he exists (0:33:14) Kelly: He’s very cute. (0:33:15) Al: yeah uh (0:33:16) Kelly: He looks like he’s like that good soft material, too. (0:33:18) Al: yeah yeah (0:33:20) Kelly: Like squishmallows. (0:33:22) Al: but not (0:33:22) Kelly: I’m just going to keep talking until you feel bad, (0:33:24) Kelly: and then you add yourself to life. (0:33:29) Al: everdream valley have announced and released I think I think this is out now (0:33:34) Al: Ever Dream Valley. (0:33:36) Al: VR. A virtual reality version of Ever Dream Valley. (0:33:38) Kelly: Oh, oh, I don’t like that at all. I can’t look at that. (0:33:42) Kelly: I think I would puke if I ever did VR. (0:33:46) Al: I played, there was a game that I played which was like in VR, but you, but it was (0:33:54) Al: augmented reality rather than virtual reality. So you’re seeing the world around you as well (0:33:58) Al: and you like create these little islands where you put animals on them. I love that game. It’s such a (0:33:59) Kelly: OK. (0:34:05) Kelly: That seems cuter, and probably wouldn’t (0:34:07) Kelly: give me motion sickness, maybe. (0:34:10) Al: it was yeah it was a it definitely is much better um this I oh (0:34:16) Kelly: I literally can’t look at that cow clip. (0:34:18) Al: yeah I don’t I don’t know what to say about this game uh (0:34:25) Al: this kind of looks like a proof of concept this looks thrown together um (0:34:30) Kelly: It doesn’t look good. (0:34:32) Al: oh it’s not out yet it’s coming soon but you can pre-order it (0:34:34) Kelly: No yeah yeah but like that cow clip does not look good. (0:34:38) Al: No, no. (0:34:40) Al: No. (0:34:42) Kelly: Feels like I don’t, maybe I’m biased because I don’t like VR but like (0:34:47) Kelly: I thought we were kind of coming down from like the VR (0:34:51) Kelly: um spike I guess. (0:34:54) Al: do it. Yeah, I don’t know why they’ve done this. Like I have a VR headset and I love (0:34:59) Al: it for some things. I love Beat Saber. I love whatever the name of the game is. I kind (0:35:01) Kelly: Mm-hmm (0:35:07) Kelly: Beat Saber looks so sick. I think that would that’s like the the soul game that would sell me a (0:35:12) Al: It is the single thing that convinces anybody to buy VR. (0:35:17) Al: It is so good, I love it so much. (0:35:21) Al: But that, watching films in IMAX and whatever the name of the other game I play, the one (0:35:29) Al: with the Islands of Animals, those are the three things I’ve done more than once on my (0:35:33) Kelly: okay yeah no and it’s a separate game right like yeah you have to pay (0:35:35) Al: VR headset, right? (0:35:36) Al: Like there’s other things that you’ve tried once or whatever and gone “not for me”. (0:35:42) Al: It’s game, but the content. (0:35:47) Al: Yeah. (0:35:48) Al: It’s twenty dollars I think? (0:35:50) Kelly: you could pre-order it for 15 (0:35:58) Kelly: Yeah, no, I feel like a lot of the VR game just feel like novelty. (0:36:02) Al: Tune in next time to see if I’ve bought this game or not. (0:36:07) Al: All right. (0:36:08) Al: That’s the news. (0:36:09) Al: Let’s talk about Ratopia. (0:36:11) Kelly: Yay, I’m just so glad it came out. (0:36:12) Al: All right, I’m going to. (0:36:15) Kelly: Can I say that as someone who is waiting on so many different stupid games? (0:36:16) Al: Yeah. (0:36:20) Kelly: It is so nice to get a full release. (0:36:25) Al: OK, I want to try and describe this game and you can tell me what you think (0:36:30) Kelly: Okay. (0:36:30) Al: about my description. (0:36:32) Al: You are the the queen of a new rat city (0:36:39) Al: and you are building your city out. (0:36:43) Al: You it’s it’s almost it almost is like a it is a city builder, (0:36:49) Al: but it is a an RPG city builder. (0:36:52) Al: So you’re controlling a character. (0:36:55) Al: And you are building up the city. (0:36:58) Al: You’re you know, you’re saying this is where buildings go and you’re saying this (0:37:02) Al: different things go and this is these are the laws of the city and stuff like that. (0:37:08) Al: And you also accept in new members or new citizens. (0:37:14) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:37:15) Al: They are. They call them (0:37:18) Al: they call them migrants or refugees. (0:37:19) Kelly: I think it’s migrants. (0:37:19) Al: I can’t remember. It’s one of the two. (0:37:21) Kelly: It’s something with an M. I know that. (0:37:22) Al: I think it’s my yeah, it’ll be migrants then. (0:37:25) Al: And when you accept migrants in, you can then put them to work. (0:37:29) Al: Or you, so I guess the two, two. (0:37:32) Al: Your main ways of playing the game are you are controlling your individual character who goes around and can do things, and then you’re also directing your citizens to do things as well, so you don’t have to do them instead. (0:37:47) Al: And that can be basically anything, right? You can get them to man a specific building, to like lumber, or you can get them to dig. (0:37:55) Al: I think automatically they will like gather up everything that’s on the ground and put it in the chest. (0:38:02) Al: That’s it. It’s a city builder, but you are controlling an individual character as well as telling other characters what to do. (0:38:10) Al: Is that a fair description of the game? (0:38:12) Kelly: I think it is also it’s vertical builder uh like yeah yeah yeah (0:38:14) Al: What does that mean? What do you mean? Oh, like a 2D, yeah, okay, I see what you mean. It’s side scrolling up and downy. (0:38:22) Kelly: yes but like you’re building vertically which I think is like more terraria than like other (0:38:25) Al: Yes. I was going to, I was just going to say that Terraria is the, is the. (0:38:32) Al: Would be the example. (0:38:34) Kelly: I would say this is like a micromanagers final boss game (0:38:38) Al: Oh, my word, so micromanaging. (0:38:40) Kelly: It’s, it makes. (0:38:42) Kelly: It makes my heart sing. It’s incredible and so stressful. (0:38:45) Al: So let me tell you how I, let me tell you my thought process when starting this game. I’ve not put in, like, I’ve maybe put in less than an hour into this game, but the demo is really good at showing you the core concept of the game really quickly, and I don’t know if the main game does it in the same way, but. (0:39:02) Al: And you’re like, oh, you’re great. That’s fine. I’m going to go do some digging and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh, man, I can only carry three things at once and there’s only three of the same thing. (0:39:10) Al: Oh, that’s really frustrating. Oh, goodness. Right. This is going to take forever to do anything. It’s like you dig, dig, dig, and then you throw in the chest and then you dig, dig, dig, and you throw in the chest. Right. Fine. Whatever. This is really annoying. (0:39:22) Al: Oh, OK. Right. I’m adding in new people to my city. OK, fine. Oh, they’re all picking up the things I can do so I can just go now and dig and dig and dig and dig and they will take the thing. Great. That’s a much improvement. (0:39:32) Al: And then it’s like, oh, and then it goes, oh, you need to build this thing. And you’re like, how do I do this? And it’s like you go into this menu and this menu then expands and expands and expands. (0:39:43) Al: And it’s like this web, absolute mass, massive web of different parts of different menus. And you’re just like, I have no idea what’s happening here. (0:39:54) Al: And it’s just it is, if you enjoy not creating spreadsheets, but if you enjoy looking at. (0:40:02) Al: Somebody else’s spreadsheets and figuring out what they do, you will like this game. (0:40:08) Kelly: I think that is a fair– (0:40:12) Kelly: not metaphor, what is the word I’m looking for– (0:40:15) Kelly: summation of essentially all of the aspects of this game. (0:40:18) Al: Where I enjoy making spreadsheets, I do not enjoy figuring out what other people have done, and that’s what the menu felt like. I’m like, I want this thing, but I need to figure out what category they put it in, what category of what category, and what menu of what setting, and then where in this category is it, because it’s just like this mess of things. (0:40:42) Al: And I don’t like figuring out what people think in the best of times. (0:40:48) Al: And it just feels like somebody made this game, and this is how they decided was the most logical thing for their brain, and I cannot be bothered spending my time figuring out why they decided. (0:41:02) Kelly: I think that is a very fair way to see it because I think that’s exactly how it is. (0:41:10) Kelly: But also, I feel like once it starts clicking, it starts making more sense because for me, (0:41:16) Kelly: I really enjoy trying to figure out how people are thinking because I think that’s the only (0:41:20) Kelly: way I can understand vaguely people. (0:41:26) Kelly: So it’s like a puzzle. (0:41:27) Kelly: So I think the puzzle of trying to understand the thought process is kind of fun. (0:41:32) Kelly: Also frustrating, though. (0:41:35) Kelly: Like, there’s definitely been moments where I’m like, (0:41:38) Kelly: “This stupid rat has to pee! How do I fix this?” (0:41:42) Al: Yes, I (0:41:42) Kelly: You know, like, “What do you mean they can’t do this task?” (0:41:46) Al: Think that part of it is is is I I didn’t hate right because it’s like you’re just your standard city builder thing (0:41:50) Kelly: No, no, it’s not bad (0:41:52) Al: It’s like you need to balance you need to balance all these things and you need to figure out how they balance fine (0:41:57) Al: Sure, whatever my problem. I just felt like I was navigating menus for 90% of the time (0:41:57) Kelly: Yes, it’s just I think (0:42:03) Kelly: It’s a lot of menus (0:42:04) Kelly: I did see someone say that they didn’t like that the game paused when you opened the menu to like build something and in (0:42:11) Kelly: My head I was like, what the hell are you talking about? (0:42:13) Al: All right souls player, goodness me, just masochistic person. (0:42:15) Kelly: Yeah, I was like what kind of game do you think this is that’s crazy (0:42:21) Kelly: Then like I literally I watched that and I was like what the hell kind of person (0:42:27) Al: Oh, my word. Horrifying. (0:42:28) Kelly: That’s sick that’s sicko behavior (0:42:32) Kelly: It’s like please keep those thoughts to yourself and I think better never implement that in this game (0:42:38) Al: Yeah, that that that how to make this game more stressful. (0:42:42) Kelly: Yeah, literally, like you said, the souls-like version. (0:42:47) Kelly: That’s disgusting. (0:42:48) Kelly: Don’t ever tell people that. (0:42:50) Al: It was like the kid just said, “Is it time for a test in school?” (0:42:51) Kelly: Like, I need those, I need that pause (0:42:54) Kelly: to figure out what I’m doing. (0:42:58) Al: And you’re like, “No! (0:42:59) Al: What are you doing? (0:43:00) Al: What?” (0:43:00) Kelly: You didn’t collect our homework. (0:43:01) Al: Yeah. (0:43:02) Al: Oh. (0:43:06) Kelly: But yeah, no, that blew my mind. (0:43:07) Kelly: ‘Cause I was like, people think like this? (0:43:10) Kelly: Why would you want that? (0:43:12) Al: So yeah, I think I, I mean, we’re just, we’re apparently getting straight into (0:43:15) Al: my opinions, um, I, I can, I, this is not the game for me, but I 100% can see why (0:43:16) Kelly: I think that’s very fair, and I do overall, I think this game, there is so much going (0:43:21) Al: someone would like this 100%. (0:43:29) Kelly: on and like, I like Rimworld a lot, I don’t know half of the shit I’m supposed to be doing (0:43:36) Kelly: in Rimworld because there’s just so much in that game. (0:43:41) Kelly: I don’t even buy the DLCs for that game, I just like playing the game, I figure things (0:43:45) Kelly: Peace out as the game goes on. (0:43:46) Kelly: You know, I’ve been playing it for a few years, things will happen, bad things happen, sometimes you die. (0:43:48) Al: Yeah (0:43:51) Al: Do you know I think (0:43:53) Al: What I think interesting was I think that when I while I was playing this game (0:43:57) Al: I think I was thinking you know what I would have more fun doing probably what is terraria (0:44:03) Al: Right, like I feel like that’s what I’m looking for if I’m one if I would be wanting to play this game (0:44:08) Al: It’s it’s I I I want it simpler (0:44:13) Al: I’m not it’s not necessarily even the action adventure bit right like it’s it’s more I (0:44:14) Kelly: That’s, yeah. (0:44:18) Al: Was thinking like this but (0:44:22) Al: Minecraft and then I was like wait, but that’s terraria, right? (0:44:24) Kelly: Mmm (0:44:26) Kelly: That’s so funny because I’ve I’ve actually never played I missed the boat on Terraria (0:44:30) Kelly: And I’ve also never played Minecraft because I 100% missed the boat on that one. I feel like at a certain point (0:44:37) Kelly: Like I think I would still enjoy Minecraft, but at this point in my life. I’m just like I cannot pick up Minecraft (0:44:43) Al: That’s totally fair. Minecraft was my, like I got in literally the last day of alpha (0:44:50) Kelly: Oh, wow. (0:44:51) Al: in Minecraft. So that was back on in 2010, I want to say. And that was like, I was, (0:44:56) Kelly: Mm-hmm. And I know people are still playing it. I know, you know, it’s still a relevant game. (0:45:00) Al: oh yeah, yeah. Oh, absolutely. But I was like part of the way through uni at that point, (0:45:07) Al: university. So like I, I was very much in a world where I. (0:45:12) Al: Could sit up till three in the morning, obsessing over stuff. And I loved the building aspect of (0:45:18) Al: that. So I, I, if I, obviously I do not have any numbers for how much time I spent on Minecraft, (0:45:25) Al: because it wasn’t through Steam and nothing exists for that. But if I did have numbers, (0:45:30) Al: I would probably be incredibly scared to share that number with anyone, right? Like. (0:45:34) Kelly: That’s how I feel about my Sims numbers, you know? I’m so glad I don’t have those. (0:45:39) Al: Yeah. Yeah, same, same sort of thing. (0:45:42) Al: Absolutely. (0:45:45) Kelly: But no, I think what I like about this game is that there’s so much going on. Like in (0:45:50) Kelly: a sense it’s like, I enjoy bein

Al and Kelly talk about Grimoire Groves Disclosure: We received a free review code for Grimoire Groves. #gifted Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:02:23: What Have We Been Up To 00:12:16: Game News 00:36:28: New Games 00:39:42: Grimoire Groves 01:12:37: Outro Links Harvest Moon Pre-Orders Bugaboo Pocket Release Date Fields of Mistria 2nd Update Go-go Town “Spring Cleaning” Update Sun Haven “Festivals” 2.0 Update Autonomica (Farm Folks) Name Change Coral Island 2025 Roadmap Everdream Village Contact Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Al: Hello, farmers, and welcome to another episode of the Harvest Season. (0:00:34) Al: My name is Al, and we are here today to talk about cottagecore games. (0:00:36) Kelly: And my name is Kelly. (0:00:40) Kelly: Yay. (0:00:41) Al: Welcome back, Kelly. How are you doing? (0:00:44) Kelly: Good. (0:00:44) Kelly: It’s always nice to be back. (0:00:46) Kelly: It’s so funny, because all of my voice recordings are just– (0:00:46) Al: Always nice to have you. (0:00:52) Kelly: oh, it’s like memory lane looking at all the past podcasts. (0:00:56) Al: You were last on talking about fields of mystery, which we might have stuff to talk about with (0:01:00) Kelly: Yes, yes. (0:01:04) Kelly: Yeah, I saw there was a note, but I (0:01:06) Kelly: I haven’t checked it out since we last spoke. (0:01:10) Kelly: Yeah, how have you been? (0:01:10) Al: But yeah, your first one of the year you did three last year. (0:01:12) Kelly: Oh, yeah, 2025. (0:01:14) Al: Let’s see if we can get you above three this year. (0:01:19) Al: Cool. Well, I have Kelly on this episode because we are going to (0:01:23) Al: talk about grimoire groves, grimoire groves. (0:01:28) Kelly: Yes, it’s like a little tongue twister. (0:01:31) Al: Yes, grimoire groves. (0:01:34) Al: Got to say up front, obviously, we received a free review code (0:01:38) Al: for the game, which actually can. (0:01:40) Al: I don’t know. No, that was a joke. That was a joke. That was a joke. (0:02:00) Kelly: No, no, no, no, I would absolutely pay money for this game. (0:02:11) Al: Spoiler alert. Yeah, so we’re going to talk about that game later in the episode. Before (0:02:15) Kelly: And thank you, Al, for that. (0:02:22) Al: that, we’ve obviously got a bunch of news, but first of all, Kelly, what have you been (0:02:26) Kelly: I have been up to taking care of a stray cat and then just trying to start (0:02:33) Kelly: planning out stuff for the spring for the yard. (0:02:36) Al: Oh, yes. Is it garden talking time? What’s your plans for this year? (0:02:39) Kelly: Yeah, but also we’re trying to… I don’t know yet. I’m still waiting but I have to (0:02:47) Kelly: clean up the yard because I prioritized weeding other areas of the house last (0:02:51) Kelly: fall instead of the garden, so it’s still kind of overgrown. (0:02:56) Kelly: I’m trying to get dirt so I can level out the borders of the (0:02:59) Kelly: yard and then tarp them. So exciting. And besides that, I’ve (0:03:08) Kelly: been playing Infinity Nikki for three solid months. This broke (0:03:11) Kelly: my streak, actually. I still play the game every day, so it (0:03:12) Al: No, I haven’t played it (0:03:17) Kelly: didn’t actually break my streak. I just was the only game I was (0:03:19) Kelly: playing for three months. (0:03:22) Al: Fair enough. I haven’t played Infinity Nakey. I’m pretty sure that Dalin plays it as well. (0:03:29) Al: I think we’ve talked about it before, but if you’ve been playing it for three months (0:03:34) Al: straight, I guess you’ve been enjoying it then. (0:03:36) Kelly: - Yes, yes, I think there were definitely moments, (0:03:39) Al: This is the dress-up game, right? Yeah. (0:03:41) Kelly: yes, there were definitely moments where I was playing it (0:03:43) Kelly: ‘cause I just was like, I don’t really have anything else (0:03:45) Kelly: I’m trying to play at the moment, (0:03:48) Kelly: but there is a lot of content and it looks really nice (0:03:51) Kelly: and it’s just like fun to run around the open world (0:03:53) Kelly: and like collect your stuff. (0:03:55) Kelly: It’s just a collecting game. (0:03:56) Al: Yeah. Look, you’re talking to a Pokemon player, right? Like, I know what collecting is like, (0:04:01) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:04:03) Al: I know the feeling. I think it’s a unique part of it, is the fact that it’s a gacha (0:04:10) Al: collecting game, but with outfits, I think is fun. (0:04:12) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:04:14) Kelly: Yes. (0:04:15) Kelly: And unfortunately, there are some things (0:04:19) Kelly: that you cannot beat with essentially not doing the gotcha, (0:04:22) Kelly: but you don’t have to do everything. (0:04:24) Kelly: It’s not going to stop your story progression. (0:04:27) Kelly: You’re just not going to get bonuses. (0:04:30) Al: Right. They’ve got to have a reason for you to pay money, right? (0:04:30) Kelly: You’re just not going to get the coolest outfit. (0:04:33) Kelly: Did I– absolutely. (0:04:36) Kelly: And did I spend some money to get a frog outfit? (0:04:40) Kelly: Yes, but it was a surprise. (0:04:42) Kelly: There was a dog outfit and I needed it. (0:04:44) Kelly: But also like the game is free also, so. (0:04:47) Al: Yes. And, well, yes, exactly. Tell me that three years ago. The thing about these three games is, (0:04:48) Kelly: You just have to you have to restrain yourself. (0:04:57) Al: yeah, you’ve got to make sure that you’re not going over the top, but you’ve also got to think (0:05:00) Al: about how much time and fun you’ve gotten out of games. Like, you know, if I think about Pokemon Go, (0:05:04) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:05:07) Al: I have obviously, I’ve definitely put too much money into that. But also when I think about the (0:05:07) Kelly: Ah, yes. (0:05:11) Al: amount of time that I spend in that game. Like, I spend hours every single day. (0:05:16) Kelly: Oh, I was Pokemon go is probably my highest. Yeah (0:05:17) Al: For eight, for nine years now. (0:05:22) Kelly: Like I don’t and I I I go back and forth on playing it but that game has (0:05:27) Kelly: That’s my most played game because of that (0:05:28) Al: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, ever. Yeah, that don’t think is… (0:05:31) Kelly: Like it beat my Sims like legacy of like, you know playing that from like 10 years old or whatever (0:05:38) Al: I think the thing is that because it’s so accessible, but also because you’re playing (0:05:41) Kelly: It’s so accessible it’s in your hand (0:05:45) Al: it for so many years, even if you only played half an hour every day after 10 years, which (0:05:47) Kelly: Mm-hmm. Yes, exactly (0:05:54) Al: in a year and a bit, it’ll be 10 years since the game came out, if you’ve only played half (0:05:58) Kelly: That’s disgusting, don’t say that. (0:06:05) Al: an error, but you do it every single day for the for the for. (0:06:08) Al: 10 years, that is nearly 2000 hours. That’s the thing, the (0:06:12) Kelly: that’s insane but yeah no it’s it’s true yeah exactly but yeah it’s so it’s like (0:06:15) Al: numbers just add up so fast. And let me tell you, it’s way more (0:06:20) Al: than half an hour I’ve played every single day. (0:06:20) Kelly: okay yeah yeah and it’s like okay so like if I put some money in it every (0:06:26) Kelly: year like I’m getting so much out of it you know and I played love Nikki which (0:06:31) Kelly: is what is the phone game before like there’s been other phone games before (0:06:36) Kelly: this too but that was the one I got really into which is different like (0:06:40) Kelly: setup wise, but essentially it’s just an outfit game again. (0:06:42) Kelly: Gotcha outfit game and again, it’s like okay. I played that game for like four years. I put some money into it (0:06:49) Kelly: But I played it a lot like I spent so much time playing that game (0:06:52) Al: Yeah, as long as you can afford what you’re doing, that’s the important thing. (0:06:56) Kelly: Exactly, but yeah, what have you been up to? (0:07:00) Al: I have been procrastinating playing Grimoire Crows. (0:07:06) Al: Every so often, I end up in this situation where I’m like, this is a game that I need to play, (0:07:11) Al: and then I end up not playing it very much. And instead of procrastinating by playing other games, (0:07:17) Al: I procrastinate by doing other things instead. So I’ve not really done much this week at all. (0:07:20) Kelly: Yep. (0:07:23) Al: I have started a shiny hunt for Regigigas in Pokémon Sword. I’m at the point where I need to (0:07:38) Al: actually get through the rest of the legendaries. I don’t have a shiny if I want to finish my (0:07:43) Al: living decks, because I’m 110 left. And so I’m going to run out of non-legendaries very soon. (0:07:48) Kelly: Oh, my god. (0:07:52) Al: And so I thought, let’s start this one, because I can’t just… Yeah, exactly. (0:07:55) Kelly: Start breaking it up. (0:07:58) Kelly: Yeah, no, I understand that. (0:08:00) Kelly: I used to do that with Angry Birds. (0:08:04) Al: You’re going to have to explain that. (0:08:10) Kelly: Since Angry Birds came out, any phone that I get, (0:08:13) Kelly: I download Angry Birds and beat the whole game again. (0:08:15) Al: You replay it all again, oh my word! (0:08:16) Kelly: 3 stars? (0:08:18) Kelly: I’m less about it now, I just kinda go back to it when I’m bored. So like, you know, I have my phone for a while, eventually I get all the stars. But there’s certain levels that even after all these years of replaying it, they’re just difficult. And they piss me off. So I’ll break it down. (0:08:25) Al: look it’s fun it’s a fun game but I can’t say i’ve played it in the last 15 years (0:08:48) Kelly: I always break those up when I go back to get the 3 stars for them. So it’s the same thing where it’s like, I don’t want to do the really tough thing repeatedly and then just get frustrated at the game. Like it’s boring, you know? It gets boring. (0:08:56) Al: Fair enough. My 15 years might have been a bit of an exaggeration, however it is only (0:09:04) Al: 15 years since it’s 15 years since the first game came out. I can’t believe it’s been 15 years, (0:09:06) Kelly: Yes, yes, because I played it on the first iPhone I had, or an only iPhone. (0:09:09) Al: that’s wild. It was it was definitely it was one of the it was one of the early games that made you (0:09:20) Al: go ’this is why I want a touchscreen’ and it was that and (0:09:22) Kelly: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. (0:09:26) Al: Fruit Ninja and Digital Jump. Those were like the three that made me realize I get it, (0:09:27) Kelly: Yes, I never got into Fruit Ninja. (0:09:36) Al: I would like a touchscreen please. (0:09:38) Kelly: Yep. Well, that was the thrill of like, you know, with the iPhone too. It was like, oh, this is so sick. I can, I can play these fun games. I can do this for a peggle. (0:09:48) Kelly: I played peggle so much on that phone. It’s pinball. (0:09:52) Al: Okay, no, I didn’t. I didn’t play that one. I don’t think I need more games. (0:09:54) Kelly: Oh, you should look it up. I think you like peggle. (0:10:03) Al: Yeah, fun. All right. I think that’s all. Is that all I’ve got to talk about? I’m shiny (0:10:09) Al: hunting. I think so. I played… You were the one that you were you were spying me on steam. (0:10:16) Al: Was it like half an hour I played of Grimoire Groves or something? (0:10:16) Kelly: Oh, yeah, I was watching you all week because every time I’d sign on to the Steam, it’s (0:10:22) Kelly: like you’re the only person I know that has the game also. (0:10:22) Al: Oh, I’ve got an hour and 20 minutes apparently on steam there. Okay. That was yesterday. (0:10:26) Kelly: So for like the whole week, it was like 12 minutes playing. (0:10:30) Kelly: Yes, now, I see it now, but I was like watching it. (0:10:37) Kelly: I know because like two days ago, I was like, he’s still, he is cutting it close. (0:10:43) Al: Look, well, the problem was you messaged me and you said, “I’m loving this game. I’m (0:10:48) Al: played it so much.” And I’m like, “Okay, cool. I don’t need to then.” (0:10:52) Al: Yeah. No, I legitimately think that’s all I’ve (0:10:53) Kelly: Also, I’m the problem. (0:11:02) Al: done this week is like shiny hunting and Pokémon Go. (0:11:05) Kelly: sometimes it’s like you just get that mental block where you just can’t (0:11:08) Al: Yeah. Oh, I did do… I know. I did do the the Scarlet and Violet Quack Quack Quack Quaville (0:11:09) Kelly: even you’re just like oh I gotta I gotta do this but I can’t (0:11:20) Al: raids. I don’t think I’ve ever figured out how to say the name of that. (0:11:21) Kelly: What? What is that? I actually did not play Scarlet and Violet. (0:11:22) Al: Pokémon. Did you not? Um, it’s the, uh, it’s based on like carnival dancers. Uh, let me send you. (0:11:36) Kelly: Okay (0:11:38) Kelly: But like what is it you do the dancing like you (0:11:40) Al: It’s a Pokémon. Oh, no, no, just like a raid, like a normal Pokémon raid. (0:11:45) Kelly: Oh, but it’s like dressed up like a carnival dancer (0:11:49) Al: No, no, clearly you completely misunderstood this. This is just a Pokémon. (0:11:51) Kelly: Okay (0:11:52) Al: A Pokémon that is based on a carnival dancer. That’s the Pokémon, (0:11:57) Kelly: Oh, but that’s what you’re waiting for (0:11:57) Al: but they’ve done, there’s a raid to defeat it and capture it, yes. (0:12:01) Kelly: Okay, okay, I’m sorry. I thought this was like a costume Pokemon. You know what I mean? (0:12:05) Al: Oh, no, it’s not. They’ve not done that in the main games yet. Um, yeah, that’s it. (0:12:06) Kelly: Okay (0:12:12) Al: That’s the entirety of that. It was a raid. I did it. There we go. Done. Uh, (0:12:17) Al: should we talk about some news? Because the section is being a little bit of a disaster. (0:12:21) Al: Um… (0:12:23) Al: So, first up, the moment you’ve all been waiting for, we have some news on Harvest Moon, (0:12:30) Al: The Lost Valley, and Skytree Village, the ports or remasters, however they want to call them, (0:12:38) Al: for Switch, which for some reason they’ve decided to do, is up for pre-order now. (0:12:44) Al: It is $40 for the two of them, which still feels like too much, but (0:12:51) Al: I feel like it says a lot. (0:12:52) Al: When they’re selling two full games that they originally sold individually on separate consoles, (0:12:59) Al: and they’ve ported them both to the Switch, and they’re selling them both together for $40. (0:13:03) Al: That shows you how much people definitely want to buy these games. (0:13:07) Kelly: Yeah, cuz a lot of these remakes are like still a full 60 dollars alone. Yeah (0:13:11) Al: Exactly. The good ones are. (0:13:15) Al: So it’s coming out in June. Previously, we just knew it was coming out in the summer. (0:13:19) Al: We don’t have an exact date as far as I can see, just says June. (0:13:23) Al: And if you pre-order it now, you get a free acrylic standee (0:13:27) Al: with some of the worst art I’ve seen for a Harvestmen game ever. (0:13:31) Kelly: I can tell you really like this one. (0:13:33) Al: I haven’t even played these games, but I know for a fact they’re bad (0:13:36) Al: because I talked to Rachelle about them and they did not like them and yeah. (0:13:39) Kelly: I can never remember which ones are bad but the art for this one does not look good. (0:13:47) Al: These were I think the first two they did after the split between Harvestmen and (0:13:53) Al: so these were the first ones that weren’t by the original team. (0:13:56) Al: They were by Natsume and let’s just say they hadn’t made any games before and you can tell. (0:14:08) Al: I do, I will, I’m so strongly of the opinion that I think that people sometimes are judging (0:14:17) Al: Harvestmen too harshly purely because they’re angry that they kept the name and didn’t give (0:14:23) Al: back but that’s how these things work and I’m sorry you dislike that but I think if you actually (0:14:29) Al: played some of the newer games they’re not as bad as you think but these ones I’m pretty sure are. (0:14:37) Kelly: - Fair enough, I think that’s a fair point. (0:14:40) Al: The way I described it in the last episode I did with Micah is (0:14:43) Al: they are so close to having a good game. (0:14:47) Kelly: Oh, with the new ones. (0:14:48) Al: Yeah, they’re so close. So close. (0:14:51) Kelly: Maybe next– maybe next game, they’ll hit it. (0:14:52) Al: what we said for three games now. Each game they do is better than the last. Yes, but (0:15:00) Kelly: OK, so they’re growing slowly. (0:15:02) Al: they do still make some bizarre decisions in those games. They’ve also released a whole (0:15:07) Al: bunch of screenshots. And yeah, I mean, they basically look like the original games did, (0:15:13) Al: but with, I guess, more pixels, but not more pixels on the actual models, just more pixels. (0:15:20) Al: So it’s like– (0:15:20) Kelly: No, they look like knees, but like with a little bit better quality. (0:15:22) Al: Yeah, yeah, that’s exact. It looks better quality, but not in a good way. (0:15:30) Kelly: No. (0:15:31) Al: It looks like HD kind of, but it’s like you’ve got HD upscaled basically, right? (0:15:39) Al: Like you were recording on a really old camera and you’ve upscaled it to HD, (0:15:43) Al: so it’s like everything is shiny and lots of pixels, but it still doesn’t look good. (0:15:52) Kelly: - Yeah, no, it’s not right. (0:15:53) Al: These were a DS and a 3DS game, I think, originally, so they have had to merge the two screens. (0:16:02) Al: However, I think the bottom screen was mostly just like for the map, (0:16:06) Al: and so they now have a mini map on the screen, so… (0:16:09) Kelly: Okay, I feel like a lot of games like this have like the map or like controls or something at the bottom (0:16:14) Al: Yeah, yeah, so I guess we’ll see. (0:16:19) Al: I don’t, I’m gonna buy this. (0:16:22) Kelly: I like, did you notice that it’s so you said it’s releasing in June, but then at the top (0:16:23) Al: I’m gonna do my duty for the podcast, you’re welcome. (0:16:33) Kelly: it says ships in April to June. (0:16:36) Al: Yeah, if you scroll down to the product description, it says release date June 2025. (0:16:41) Kelly: interesting so this game is worth that $25 basically (0:16:43) Al: Apparently, the acrylic standee is worth $13. (0:16:48) Al: So yeah, well, I don’t know what to say. You probably shouldn’t buy this. (0:17:02) Al: But I will. Next, we have Bugaboo Pocket. (0:17:07) Al: Have announced that the release date is on the 2nd of April. I don’t know if you’ve (0:17:11) Al: seen this game, Kelly. It’s a bug game. It’s like a bug Pokémon, but like on… (0:17:12) Kelly: I have not. What is this? (0:17:20) Al: How do I describe this? It’s like virtual pets. So like Tamagotchis. (0:17:24) Kelly: Oh, okay, I see it now. Now I got the screen page, but it’s got like way more details. (0:17:30) Al: Yes, yeah, it’s very much like modernized in terms of how you would interact. (0:17:37) Al: Quality of graphics and is much more intense from that sort of aspect of things. (0:17:43) Al: But I think you also can, for lack of a better phrase, because I’m very tired. (0:17:51) Al: It’s the end of the weekend. Do science on them. I don’t know how to describe it. (0:17:57) Kelly: Like, experiments? (0:17:58) Al: No experiment. No, that would be immoral. No, inspect them and look at them. (0:18:06) Kelly: Oh, OK. (0:18:07) Al: There is like if you have… (0:18:09) Kelly: Oh, and pin them. (0:18:10) Kelly: It looks like you can pin them. (0:18:11) Al: Yeah, but those are dead. Like you’re not pinning a live one, right? (0:18:13) Kelly: Yeah, that would be immoral also. (0:18:18) Kelly: I hope so. (0:18:19) Kelly: I’m just looking at pictures. (0:18:22) Al: So yeah, it’s much more involved than a Tamagotchi. (0:18:28) Kelly: The graphics look really cool. (0:18:30) Al: Yeah, Cody is excited to play this. (0:18:33) Kelly: I’m sure that makes sense. (0:18:36) Kelly: This looks really cool, honestly. (0:18:37) Al: Anyway, coming on the 2nd of April. Next, we have the Fields of Mistria 2nd update. (0:18:45) Al: It’s out now, Kelly. Have you played it yet? (0:18:48) Kelly: Not since, uh, November, end of November, since we talked. (0:18:54) Al: Yeah, that was just the first update that was then, so. (0:18:56) Kelly: Yeah, ‘cause I had finished everything that you could possibly do at that point, (0:19:00) Kelly: and I was like, “Okay, I gotta, I don’t wanna kill the game for myself.” (0:19:00) Al: Yep. (0:19:04) Al: We were on the same page at that point, right? Basically, I think we’d both done everything you could do in the game and didn’t want to destroy our enthusiasm for the game. But does that mean you’re definitely not going to get jump into the game with this new update? (0:19:13) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:19:20) Kelly: I’m probably going to wait. (0:19:23) Kelly: I mean, I started breeding for different color animals (0:19:27) Kelly: and stuff, like the tears. (0:19:28) Kelly: So I had been failing my time with that, (0:19:30) Kelly: but mostly because I didn’t have a new game. (0:19:34) Kelly: But yeah, I’m going to wait and see. (0:19:35) Kelly: I got games coming out soon. (0:19:37) Kelly: We got “Rethopia.” (0:19:38) Al: Yes, oh, yes, that’s that (0:19:41) Kelly: I got a solid amount of games currently. (0:19:43) Kelly: So I gotta actually, like, focus on them. (0:19:46) Al: That’s fair. We’ve already covered what’s out in this update, so let’s not spend too long on it. (0:19:50) Kelly: Mm-hmm, okay. (0:19:50) Al: Next we have Gogotown. Their next update Spring Cleaning is out now. I presume you haven’t played (0:19:59) Al: this game. It is fun. It definitely feels very polished for the way that I talked about it in (0:20:07) Al: the episode I did on it. It’s very polished what is there, but it feels like it’s a long way to go (0:20:13) Al: to feel complete. (0:20:15) Kelly: Okay, that’s fair. I mean it seems very ambitious looking so hopefully they just get there (0:20:16) Al: Yeah, a number of things in this update, you can now store a tool and a vehicle on (0:20:29) Al: yourself, it says in a patented Townco dimensional pocket. Basically, you had vehicles, but you (0:20:36) Al: had to like park them somewhere. So now you can keep one of them on yourself. So you have (0:20:40) Al: to keep running back to the parking spaces, which is a nice update. There’s also (0:20:46) Al: a Town info app that gives you a bunch of information on the Town. 360 degree camera (0:20:52) Al: rotation, which is good. I like this. Oh yes, what was that? You’ve asked for it. We’ve (0:20:56) Kelly: I like their note on this. (0:21:00) Al: put in an experimental setting for you to rotate the camera 360 degrees. Fair enough. (0:21:05) Kelly: The screenshot is definitely making me dizzy though, looking at it too long. (0:21:07) Al: Yes, you can definitely tell us experimental. There’s some things that move out of view when (0:21:13) Al: when they shouldn’t do and stuff like that. (0:21:17) Al: A work in progress. (0:21:17) Kelly: But I mean like they they they put it out there that it’s experimental so. (0:21:20) Al: Yep, yep, and they’ve also added (0:21:23) Al: infinite seeds for your farming, which I am intrigued by because I thought (0:21:28) Al: when you planted a seed, the plant never never seemed to die. (0:21:33) Al: It just seemed to always grow new stuff. (0:21:35) Al: So you essentially had infinite stuff, right? (0:21:38) Al: Because as soon as you had a seed, you just (0:21:39) Al: planted it and you had that plant forever. (0:21:40) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:21:41) Al: But maybe I’m misremembering. (0:21:44) Kelly: Maybe they changed it. (0:21:46) Al: updates as well. But yeah, those are the main ones that I noticed. (0:21:49) Al: Next, we have Sunhaven have released their 2.0 update. (0:21:53) Al: And you’re like, oh, 2.0, that sounds like it might be a big update. (0:21:57) Al: It’s festivals. (0:22:00) Al: It doesn’t particularly feel huge. (0:22:02) Al: I’m intrigued as to why they decided to go for 2.0 at this point. (0:22:06) Al: OK. (0:22:10) Al: It adds a furniture festival, a garden (0:22:12) Al: festival, a pet festival, a mushroom festival, a snow festival. (0:22:16) Al: And a bunch of other (0:22:19) Al: furniture and stuff like that related to that. (0:22:22) Kelly: Okay, interesting how much of the game is actually out? (0:22:26) Al: Well, it’s no longer in early access. (0:22:28) Al: So I feel like I think they might have I feel like they’ve done everything that (0:22:32) Al: they said in the Kickstarter, like it’s the story is done and stuff like that. (0:22:38) Al: When I see people talking in the comments, they’re no longer complaining about things (0:22:43) Al: they’re talking about translations being bad. (0:22:49) Kelly: Yeah, this one’s been on my wish list, (0:22:50) Kelly: so I’ve been just waiting to see. (0:22:54) Al: I think I own it, yes, I do. (0:22:56) Al: I kick-started this one, I just haven’t played it yet. (0:22:59) Al: So this came out initially in 2023. (0:23:03) Al: Or was that, no, that was the 1.0, I think. (0:23:06) Al: Yeah, 2021 is when it first came out. (0:23:08) Al: And this was when I was still well and truly (0:23:11) Al: primarily Switch, but it wasn’t on Switch yet. (0:23:15) Al: And then I got a Steam Deck, (0:23:16) Al: and then suddenly I was very much on the Steam Deck, (0:23:18) Al: except for games that weren’t on the Steam Deck. (0:23:21) Al: but I had kind of really moved the path. (0:23:24) Al: I’m just thinking about this game, because it was, you know, it had been like two years or something since it started. (0:23:32) Al: Sometimes I do think that there is like a time period where if you’re not going to play a game (0:23:36) Al: within that time period, you’re probably never going to get to it. (0:23:38) Kelly: Yeah, no, definitely it definitely gets harder and harder to go back to it (0:23:44) Al: So maybe I’ll get to it one day, who knows, there’s so many games. (0:23:48) Al: Next we have farm folks or, as it is now called, (0:23:54) Al: Autonomica? Good job, going from a game name that was just slightly awkward to say to one that I don’t know how to pronounce. (0:24:02) Al: Autonomica? Auto… Autonomica. (0:24:04) Kelly: Oh, Tom, oh, oh, Tom, I don’t know, I don’t know. (0:24:08) Al: Autonomica. That’s what you were trying to say, wasn’t it? Autonomica. (0:24:13) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, something like that. (0:24:14) Al: No, I don’t think it’s Autonomica. (0:24:18) Kelly: I don’t think it is either, (0:24:19) Kelly: but I was just trying to see if I could say it. (0:24:20) Kelly: And apparently I can’t. (0:24:24) Al: For those who don’t know the story behind this game, it was started as farm folks, and then the company that was making it went bust. (0:24:32) Al: And then another company basically, I don’t know whether they bought the company that went bust or whether they bought the rights to the game and the code and stuff, (0:24:40) Al: but they continued development. So the company that’s making this is not the company that did the Kickstarter for this game. (0:24:46) Al: Although I’m pretty sure I saw somewhere that they are going to honor the Kickstarter, which is always good. (0:24:52) Al: Um, don’t take– (0:24:52) Kelly: nice isn’t there another game with like a similar ish name to this new name but (0:24:54) Al: I’d need to confirm that, but I feel like I saw that somewhere. (0:25:05) Kelly: also like how do you go from farm folks which is like the most generic farm game (0:25:08) Al: Yeah. (0:25:10) Kelly: name I’ve ever heard now which is not saying a lot because a lot of these farm (0:25:14) Kelly: games have a lot of similar names it is but how do you go from that to what do (0:25:16) Al: Naming is hard, all right. (0:25:20) Kelly: What are you calling it? Autonomica? (0:25:22) Kelly: Autonomica. Oh, it’s a musical artist. Yes, I knew I’d seen this name somewhere before. (0:25:24) Al: Autonomica. Autonomica? (0:25:30) Al: Oh. (0:25:36) Al: So they’ve made they have went the new (0:25:38) Al: company that took over the game have basically been moving it in a different direction. (0:25:43) Al: So it’s it is still farming. (0:25:46) Kelly: It looks like Fortnite with Farfian. (0:25:46) Al: It’s not. (0:25:49) Al: Yeah, they’ve never really explained their reasoning, but they’re like, it’s not just farming. (0:25:53) Al: It’s so much more than that. (0:25:55) Al: So therefore we think farm folks is a misleading name and I’m like, OK, but I don’t. (0:25:58) Kelly: Okay. That makes more sense. But I don’t get anything about farming from this name. (0:26:04) Al: No, but you do get the automation part of it, which I think they’re really big enough. (0:26:09) Al: The college so that their new blurb on steam is Autonomica is an open world life simulator (0:26:16) Al: game that seamlessly. Oh, my word, I hate this so much seamlessly merges resource (0:26:22) Al: management and automation with farm building, extensive customization, (0:26:26) Al: PvP slash PvE battles and elusive phantoms. What is this jumble of words? (0:26:34) Al: Play solo or with friends to build your mega farm factory with almost no limits. (0:26:38) Al: It is a farming game. It’s just like a industrial scale farming game. (0:26:44) Al: Right. And I get why they wanted to change. (0:26:48) Al: Why they wanted it to be clear that this was not the same game that they took over. (0:26:52) Al: But also it is farming game. (0:26:57) Al: Like you can’t say it’s not a farming game. It is a farming game. (0:27:01) Al: Build your mega farm factory, they say in the new blurb. (0:27:04) Al: Like I don’t understand the issue with it. (0:27:06) Kelly: All of these screenshots, too, are just like, what is that game? (0:27:09) Al: Yes, Factorio. Yeah. (0:27:11) Kelly: Factorio? (0:27:14) Kelly: It’s like that, but with farming more. (0:27:16) Al: Open world 3D Factorio. (0:27:20) Al: Which I honestly am excited by. I think this game could be really good. (0:27:25) Al: I just don’t understand why they really didn’t like the name and they decided to change. (0:27:29) Al: But I don’t think this is a better name. (0:27:32) Al: That’s all I’m going to say. I get why they didn’t like the old game. (0:27:35) Al: Old name. I’m not sure this is better. (0:27:37) Kelly: Honestly, they can take this if they want to, but I think it should have been (0:27:44) Kelly: auto-pharmica, if anything. (0:27:46) Al: I would, yeah, I would certainly be more better. Yeah, I don’t disagree with you. (0:27:49) Kelly: It would be better than this. (0:27:54) Kelly: I would assume that this is some sort of space or underwater survival game (0:28:02) Al: Oh, interesting. Yeah. Anyway, they changed the name. RIP farm folks. Long live farm folks. (0:28:03) Kelly: just going off the name alone. (0:28:08) Kelly: It’s so weird too, because I don’t even like farm books. (0:28:14) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:28:18) Kelly: I digress. (0:28:19) Al: Coral Island have announced their 2025 roadmap. They have 1.2 planned to come out in the first (0:28:27) Al: half of the year, bringing multiplayer and revamped romance. (0:28:32) Al: Which I was looking at what they say about the romance. So let’s talk about the multiplayer (0:28:37) Al: first. There’s probably not a huge amount to say. Basically, it looks like it’s stardew (0:28:41) Al: style multiplayer. You’re all multiple people on the farm. Great, fine. I’m sure it will be (0:28:46) Al: great for people who love. I am not particularly interested just because I don’t want to actually (0:28:51) Al: play my games with other people. I like these games because I’m playing them on my own. (0:28:52) Kelly: I have no desire, I have no desire to play these. These types of games are for me to play by myself, so I can be a maniac, like, let me be a psychopath by my- (0:28:59) Al: Exactly. Exactly. (0:29:03) Al: I have tried so many times to play multiplayer Stardew, and I just can’t because I have to be (0:29:08) Kelly: Oh, no. No, no, no. (0:29:10) Al: the one who has this. The problem is, right? You have to organize to play at the same time, (0:29:16) Al: and that is just not fun. Organizing times for these. (0:29:16) Kelly: No, because either you’re micromanaging all of it, too. (0:29:25) Kelly: It’s like, how do you organize the time to play together and also organize how you’re (0:29:30) Kelly: playing together? (0:29:32) Al: Yeah, the best way to do that is just be like, right, you do the farming you do the mine, there you go, go, go do your jobs. (0:29:32) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:29:38) Al: And yeah, I don’t, I don’t particularly find it fun, I get why people might. And so if you are excited about Coral Island multiplayer. (0:29:46) Al: There you go, it’s coming. I hope you enjoy it. I’m not going to do this. (0:29:48) Kelly: I think the only multiplayer game I like is Monster Hunter, to be quite honest. (0:29:58) Al: So I was also looking at the romance revamp that they’ve got. (0:30:02) Al: And I think the only difference is, so there’s a bunch of heart events that existed already. (0:30:10) Al: And it looks like you have to see the previous heart events to unlock certain, to unlock (0:30:17) Al: more hearts. (0:30:18) Al: So once you get to five hearts, you have to watch the heart events for them before you (0:30:24) Al: can do heart six to eight. (0:30:26) Al: And then you have to watch another heart event and give a locket. (0:30:32) Al: Before you can start dating and do the next two hearts, which then you have to watch the (0:30:37) Al: other events and propose before you can get married and do the other five. (0:30:43) Al: I do think this is better because what I found when I was doing this, because I got married (0:30:49) Al: in Coral Island, is I had no clue that there were heart events still to do, which is probably (0:30:55) Al: still going to be a problem here, but let’s put that aside for a minute. (0:30:59) Kelly: There’s no like there’s no like heart marker next in like the (0:31:02) Al: So there are hearts, but it’s not like, it’s just like how many hearts you have. (0:31:09) Al: Like there was no like indication that there’s an event you should be doing. (0:31:12) Al: So like I got to 10 hearts and then I went and tried to propose and they were like, oh, (0:31:17) Al: I’m not ready yet. (0:31:18) Al: And I’m like, but this is the point where I meant to be able to propose. (0:31:20) Al: Why can’t I do it? (0:31:22) Al: And I googled and it was like, oh, because you’re missing heart events. (0:31:24) Al: And I hadn’t done any of the heart events. (0:31:27) Al: And I don’t know how it happens in Carta Island, but in Stardew, (0:31:29) Kelly: How– so I was going to say, it’s similarly set up, (0:31:32) Al: I was always finding the heart events. (0:31:37) Kelly: like you just trigger the event when you encounter them (0:31:40) Al: Yes, and there are a few heart events in Stardew that were very niche and you (0:31:41) Kelly: in a certain location. (0:31:46) Al: wouldn’t immediately find, but like by that point, you’re like, oh, (0:31:51) Al: I know that these things are coming, so I should be expecting them. (0:31:53) Al: I hadn’t done a single one in Carta Island. (0:31:56) Al: How had I not triggered any of the heart events? (0:31:59) Kelly: Yeah, that’s crazy. That doesn’t seem like a good sub. (0:32:00) Al: It was very confusing. (0:32:02) Al: And also, I don’t think the heart events are required in Stardew for marriage. (0:32:10) Kelly: I don’t think they are either. I think they’re just, like, for you. (0:32:12) Al: Yes, and you can get extra points by doing them. (0:32:16) Al: And they’re nice, and you want to know about the story because all the characters are good characters. (0:32:16) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:32:22) Al: I was going to say great, but no, not all the characters are great. (0:32:22) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:32:24) Al: All of them are good characters. (0:32:28) Al: Um, but yeah, I just, it was really, so if they have a. (0:32:32) Al: Way to make it clear. (0:32:34) Al: That you’re now expecting to see events, then that would be good. (0:32:38) Al: Um, I don’t know. (0:32:40) Al: Um, we’ll see, I guess they don’t talk about that. (0:32:44) Al: I don’t think, but it’s interesting restricting it that much. (0:32:48) Al: So you, you have to see the events before you can continue your heart progress. (0:32:53) Al: Uh, I don’t know how I feel about that. (0:32:55) Kelly: Yeah, that seems kind of iffy the way you just described your past experience, so I guess we’ll see. (0:33:00) Al: Aha, the revamped romance system unlocks at heart level two and you’ll see a prompt (0:33:05) Al: in the relationship UI whenever a hangout event is available. (0:33:10) Al: That is good. (0:33:11) Al: It’s now making it clear when you can do something and when there’s something to do. (0:33:15) Al: That is good. (0:33:16) Al: And if you click on them inside the menu and it shows like all the stuff that you’ve done (0:33:22) Al: with them, you know, the stuff you’ve learned that they love and stuff like that, and like (0:33:25) Al: there, the birthday and stuff, it says unlock requirement, see hangout event. (0:33:30) Al: I don’t know what happened to three but anyway, whatever. (0:33:37) Al: I think that means for heart two and for heart four. (0:33:41) Al: That’s what I think it’s talking about. (0:33:43) Al: So they are definitely making it much more visible, that aspect of things. (0:33:47) Al: So that is good. (0:33:48) Al: They’re also adding more heart events for after marriage, which is also good because (0:33:52) Al: one of the things I’ve really complained about Carl Island is that your spouse ends up turning (0:33:55) Al: into a hollow husk after you get married. (0:33:58) Kelly: That’s pretty sad. (0:34:01) Al: - It was so sad. (0:34:02) Al: The minute you got married, (0:34:05) Al: they just stand in your house all day doing nothing. (0:34:07) Kelly: Oh no. (0:34:09) Al: It was the worst. (0:34:09) Al: I’ve taken your life (0:34:11) Al: and you are now just an ornament in my house. (0:34:15) Al: It was so sad. (0:34:16) Al: So hopefully that’s improved a lot with this. (0:34:20) Al: And then the 1.3 update will include your kids growing up. (0:34:27) Kelly: that’s cool that’s what I literally just started like wondering if it’s like generational like do (0:34:27) Al: And it is, I wonder how far it will go. (0:34:30) Al: I don’t know. (0:34:36) Al: I would expect not. (0:34:38) Al: I expect it would just be, oh, they grow up to be a teenager and then they stop sort of thing. (0:34:42) Al: That is my expectation. (0:34:44) Kelly: that makes sense because that’s a big that’s that’s a lot doing (0:34:44) Al: I don’t think they’ll go full hog. (0:34:49) Al: Especially as they could actually make it like real-time in-game, right? (0:34:52) Al: For every year, they are a year older. (0:34:54) Al: And so you would actually have to do 18 in-game years. (0:35:00) Al: Before your child is an adult. (0:35:04) Kelly: - Hmm. (0:35:05) Al: So they could just go, I’m sorry, if you’ve played 18 years in this game, you’ve played too much. (0:35:12) Al: But I mean, I don’t know, maybe it will work. (0:35:14) Al: I mean, I do know that some games where you have kids that grow up, (0:35:18) Al: you then die and you become your kid. (0:35:20) Al: They could do something like that. (0:35:22) Kelly: That’s true, that would be cool. (0:35:23) Al: And then you inherit the farm and, you know, 20% of it is taken in tax. (0:35:31) Al: Yeah, so they’ve not got a huge amount of information in the 1.3. (0:35:35) Al: They also said there’s going to be a Merfolk festival. (0:35:39) Al: But they’ve not got any details on how the kids grow up. (0:35:42) Al: But that is coming in the second half of this year. (0:35:44) Al: Have you played, you’ve not played Coral Island? (0:35:46) Kelly: No. I really try to avoid early access. (0:35:47) Al: No. (0:35:50) Al: Well, it’s not early access anymore. (0:35:51) Kelly: Uh, oh, it’s out, out? (0:35:53) Al: Yeah. (0:35:54) Al: The 1.0 came out just over a year ago. (0:35:58) Kelly: Okay, I must have missed that. (0:35:58) Al: and then they go and they go on. (0:36:00) Kelly: I thought it was still in early access, still. Okay. (0:36:00) Al: 1.1 sometime last year? No. The 1.0 was technically not early access, but realistically (0:36:06) Al: was early access. The 1.1 feels like what the 1.0 should have been, but the multiplayer (0:36:12) Al: was always coming after early access. So I don’t feel like you would be missing out if (0:36:17) Al: you played now compared to if you played two years ago, you definitely were missing out (0:36:22) Al: in a lot. (0:36:22) Kelly: Okay, okay, maybe one day (0:36:24) Al: All right. And we also, we all maybe, maybe, probably not. We also have (0:36:30) Al: a new game by the developers of EverDream Valley. In fact, this is a sequel to EverDream (0:36:36) Al: Valley called EverDream Village. I get what they’re doing with that name, but also I am (0:36:42) Al: going to constantly mess up. Which one is which? They also feel the wrong way around, (0:36:47) Kelly: The valley and village is like too close to each other. (0:36:53) Al: you start in a village and then you go out to a valley. (0:36:53) Kelly: Yes, it should have been, this should be a prequel. (0:36:57) Kelly: Yeah, this is the prequel in my, (0:36:59) Kelly: I literally thought like this should be the prequel (0:37:00) Al: Set 10 years after the events of EverDream Valley, EverDream Village brings a whole (0:37:07) Al: new chapter with living, breathing village and a world beyond your farm. Now you’re built, (0:37:13) Al: this is the thing. It’s like the problem was EverDream Valley wasn’t really a valley. It (0:37:17) Al: was EverDream Farm. Right. And if it was that way, it was EverDream Farm and then EverDream (0:37:21) Al: Village. That makes more logical sense to be our expansion on that. Right. You’ll build (0:37:22) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:37:28) Al: relationships explore mysterious islands. (0:37:30) Al: The Valley may have been home but it’s time to explore a world full of new adventures, (0:37:44) Kelly: - Yeah, it doesn’t seem right, there’s something off. (0:37:57) Al: NPCs and endless possibilities. I don’t really get whirled and (0:38:00) Al: abilities from village. I know what they mean. I know what they (0:38:02) Kelly: - No, but I think they just mean the world of Everdream. (0:38:08) Al: mean. I know what they mean. Build your ideal cozy farm in a (0:38:12) Al: living village. Form bonds with fellow villagers to lend a hand (0:38:16) Al: as you grow crops, care for animals and craft a corner of (0:38:18) Al: paradise. Sail across enchanted islands to discover new resources (0:38:22) Al: and adventures along the way. Maybe it’s definitely not a (0:38:25) Kelly: Maybe there is a world. (0:38:28) Al: village. (0:38:31) Al: Anyway, I mean, you can ride a pig in Evergreen Valley, so they hopefully have something like that in this game. (0:38:36) Kelly: I’m looking at that right now. (0:38:38) Kelly: That actually looks really cute. (0:38:39) Kelly: That’s a good feature. (0:38:40) Al: I haven’t played this game. It’s been on my list for forever. (0:38:44) Kelly: The first one. (0:38:45) Al: Yes, well, the second one is now yet, so of course I’ve not played that. (0:38:48) Kelly: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:38:50) Al: It’s just coming soon. They’ve not said when, it’s coming just soon. (0:38:54) Kelly: One day. (0:38:54) Al: One day. All right. (0:38:56) Kelly: Do you see this tag at the bottom on their news updates? (0:39:00) Al: The second one is that in the Evergreen Valley page? (0:39:04) Kelly: On the Steam page, yeah. (0:39:07) Al: Where am I looking? Where am I looking? (0:39:07) Kelly: I guess this is who they base the pig off of. (0:39:11) Kelly: Let me send it to you. (0:39:12) Kelly: I’ll just send it to you. (0:39:12) Al: There’s too many pages here. That’s the problem. (0:39:13) Kelly: I would do that. (0:39:15) Kelly: It really is. (0:39:15) Al: On their news. Oh, happy birthday, Peter Curleytail. (0:39:18) Kelly: Recent events, yes. (0:39:20) Al: I don’t know what to say. That is quite a pig. (0:39:24) Kelly: He’s a little frightening, but kind of cute. (0:39:26) Al: Yes, that is quite the pig. (0:39:29) Kelly: But I like the interpretation of him. (0:39:31) Al: Yeah, I like the name Peter Curleytail. (0:39:35) Kelly: Yeah, I. (0:39:36) Kelly: I’ve never seen a pig like that before, so it’s a little haunting. (0:39:42) Al: All right, that’s us done with the news. (0:39:44) Al: We are now going to talk about grimoire, grimoire. Is it grimoire? (0:39:51) Al: Grimoire. Grimoire grows. And grimoire is something that’s a witch term, isn’t it? (0:39:59) Al: like what it what I keep hearing great (0:40:00) Kelly: Yeah it’s always like I feel like it’s like swamps and grimoires and uh no it’s um what (0:40:00) Al: memoirs and lots of these witchy games. (0:40:08) Al: That explains that because, right, okay. (0:40:10) Kelly: is it a grimoire is a the book it’s the book it’s like your book of spells that’s what it is. (0:40:17) Al: And the grove is the land that you’re doing (0:40:22) Al: because a grove is like a kind of forest type thing. (0:40:26) Kelly: Yeah, yeah. But no, it’s a little book that you… (0:40:28) Al: Okay, makes sense. (0:40:30) Kelly: have all your information in. (0:40:33) Al: So, a quick introduction to this game. (0:40:38) Al: It is described on Steam as join the witches in their quest to restore the grimoire groves, (0:40:45) Al: master magic, grow cute plant creatures, and discover the mystery of the rainbow socks (0:40:52) Al: in this cozy roguelite dungeon crawler. (0:40:55) Al: The way I would describe this in my whole one hour and 20 minutes playing it (0:40:59) Al: is it is kind of cult of the lamb, but without actual, without. (0:41:09) Al: Combat the way you interact in your runs is different. (0:41:13) Al: It’s not combat so much. (0:41:16) Al: And it’s less about building a village and more about restoring nature. (0:41:24) Al: Would that be a fair way of putting it? (0:41:26) Kelly: Yeah, I think so. It’s, it’s, it’s… (0:41:29) Kelly: But you still, I feel like I’m fighting. (0:41:31) Kelly: Maybe I feel less like I’m fighting and I’m more surviving. (0:41:31) Al: Yes, okay, so I mean, okay, you could make an argument that it is basically just fighting, (0:41:39) Al: but it’s it feels so you’re feeding the plants instead of fighting them, I think is how they (0:41:44) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, but no, I’m just I’m just being a jerk. I think it’s I think that’s a good. (0:41:44) Al: describe it. So that’s why I’ve been like is not. No, no, it’s, it’s, it’s fair in terms (0:41:50) Al: of game play is very similar to most other Roguelike action games. (0:41:51) Kelly: Yes, I also think it it has that. Yeah, yeah, it has that cuteness that I think (0:41:59) Kelly: cultural land kind of has, which is why I think like they remind me like like you said like it (0:42:04) Kelly: makes you think of them. You have the juxtaposition. Yeah, yeah. (0:42:06) Al: I think the cuteness works much better in Cult of the Lam (0:42:09) Al: because it’s… exactly, exactly. (0:42:12) Al: Whereas here, the whole world is cute. (0:42:14) Kelly: But I love the saturation in this game. So like that for me is like, and I loved Call to the Land. (0:42:21) Al: Okay, I will say the game looks lovely. (0:42:24) Al: It looks really nice. (0:42:25) Al: I do love how the game actually looks. (0:42:28) Al: The graphics, the design of the characters, (0:42:36) Al: and character, but also the plants and everything. (0:42:38) Al: I do like all of that. (0:42:39) Al: That is all nice. (0:42:41) Al: I will absolutely agree with that. (0:42:44) Al: Yes. (0:42:46) Kelly: I just think it’s like you don’t always, you don’t really get a lot of games that are like, (0:42:52) Kelly: it’s like saturated, but it’s also pastel, like there’s two different kind of colored (0:42:56) Kelly: tones going on in the game, which I think is interesting. (0:43:00) Kelly: Like the backgrounds are more saturated, but the creatures, the plants are a little more (0:43:04) Kelly: pastel leaning, but it’s so vibrant. (0:43:07) Kelly: Like a lot of games, they’re so dark a lot of the time or like aiming to be more realistic (0:43:11) Al: - Yeah. (0:43:13) Kelly: in their tones, I guess. (0:43:15) Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:43:16) Kelly: Yes, but yeah, no, I love all of the designs. (0:43:17) Al: No, you’re definitely right about that. (0:43:20) Al: You wouldn’t look at this and think it was something else. (0:43:20) Kelly: I love all the little plants. (0:43:23) Al: That’s very true. (0:43:23) Kelly: No, exactly. (0:43:26) Al: So I guess there’s two main parts to this game, (0:43:29) Al: and there’s obviously a lot of other things, (0:43:31) Al: lot of things that I won’t have done in the main area. (0:43:33) Al: But like most of these roguelites, (0:43:37) Al: you have your hub, (0:43:38) Al: which is an area that is run– (0:43:41) Al: was previously run by some other witch– (0:43:44) Al: I can’t remember her name, maybe– (0:43:45) Kelly: Is it lavender? (0:43:47) Kelly: I think so. (0:43:49) Al: and it’s been taken over by thorns, (0:43:53) Al: and it’s all dreary, and you are to restore it. (0:43:57) Al: That’s the main idea. (0:43:58) Kelly: You’re the young spry witch coming in to fix it. (0:43:59) Al: And you do that by classic cliche, (0:44:05) Al: but it’s there for a reason. (0:44:08) Al: and your runs that you do. (0:44:11) Al: I think of roguelites specifically talking about roguelites not roguelikes (0:44:22) Al: well let’s not have that debate again. I find there are two types there are ones where (0:44:31) Al: your hub the point of the hub is to improve your powers skills etc to then do the runs and the (0:44:38) Kelly: Mm-hmm. Yes, I was going to say, very– (0:44:41) Al: runs is the purpose of the game and that would be your like Hades stuff like that. (0:44:49) Al: And then there’s this type of thing this and Cult of the Lamb where your hub is the point of (0:44:55) Al: the game and the runs are to gather resources for doing things in your hub. (0:45:00) Kelly: I would say it’s kind of like a mix, I think, between Cult of the Lamb and Hades in that aspect. (0:45:07) Kelly: Because I do think Cult of the Lamb, there’s so much that you do in your hub area. (0:45:12) Kelly: And I don’t think this quite has near that amount of stuff. (0:45:16) Kelly: Like, you have a lot of updates and things you can interact with. (0:45:20) Kelly: I don’t want to spoil anything. (0:45:22) Kelly: But Cult of the Lamb, you could like run the village until you ran out of resources. (0:45:28) Al: I guess my point is like you’re not the run isn’t the like with Hades you are escaping hell (0:45:28) Kelly: like I spent like five minutes like you know up (0:45:31) Kelly: and then I got another run (0:45:37) Kelly: the sole purpose yes (0:45:40) Al: and your run is escaping hell and if you fail you go back to the hub world and you try again. (0:45:45) Al: Whereas in this and with Cult of the Lamb the point is the runs you’re doing to do (0:45:50) Al: things to bring back you’re never like disappearing and I think that’s that is very much (0:45:53) Kelly: No, that’s a fair point, yeah. (0:45:58) Al: why I liked Cult of the Lamb because I was building up this thing and I really hate the (0:46:05) Al: overall feeling of Hades where if you fail you fail and you’re back to the start and you have (0:46:09) Al: to start again and so I was really excited for this because I was like oh maybe this will be (0:46:15) Al: another one that I like because it’s that sort of style but I mean I guess I need to say at some (0:46:21) Al: point I didn’t like the combat in this game. I didn’t but I feel like (0:46:24) Kelly: Did you try it on easy mode? (0:46:27) Kelly: I d

Al and Kelly talk about Fields of Mistria Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:05:39: What Have We Been Up To 00:13:12: November Game Releases 00:15:25: Stardew Concert 00:27:34: Game News 00:40:41: New Games 00:51:38: Fields Of Mistria Links Stardew Valley Symphony of Seasons Sun Haven UK/Switzerland/NZ Switch Release Everdream Valley “Family Time” DLC Snacko “Builders Dream” Update Spiritea “Phantom Friends” Update Farlands 0.3 Update Ratopia Dreamland Farm Ooze Keeper Contact Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Al: Hello farmers, and welcome to another episode of the harvest season. My name is Al, (0:00:36) Kelly: And my name is Kelly. (0:00:37) Al: and we’re here today to talk about cartridge core games. (0:00:43) Al: Welcome back Kelly, how are you doing? (0:00:46) Kelly: Pretty good. Enjoying the long weekend. It’s been nice. (0:00:49) Kelly: It’s nice to be back, too. How have you been? (0:00:51) Al: Yes, yes, good, good, good. (0:00:54) Al: I’m, yeah, doing all right. Just, you know, I’m cramming in as many farming games as possible (0:00:58) Al: before the end of the year. (0:01:00) Al: My game of the year episode is as accurate as possible. (0:01:04) Al: So busy. (0:01:06) Kelly: - Good dedication, really dedicated. (0:01:08) Al: Yeah, I mean, I feel like I probably could have played half of these in the first half of the year, but, you know, procrastination. (0:01:13) Kelly: But yeah, where’s the fun without that? (0:01:18) Al: Yeah, this is when the ADHD kicks in and goes, “Oh, deadline, great!” (0:01:22) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, no, literally. (0:01:25) Kelly: Do you have any things I did in like the 10 minutes (0:01:27) Kelly: before I sat down to record this? (0:01:29) Kelly: I think I ran through like five chores, just, why? (0:01:30) Al: Yeah, classic. Well, this is also Kelly’s 10th episode on the podcast. (0:01:40) Kelly: Whoo, I can’t believe it’s been 10. When you said that, I was so shocked. (0:01:40) Al: It’s wild. Yeah, yeah. I was surprised as well. I didn’t expect it to be that many because (0:01:52) Al: I guess it’s just been over a long time. Your first episode was in 2021. So we did Spirit (0:01:56) Al: and then the Spiritfare DLC, and then you and Kev did. (0:02:00) Al: Cult of the Lamb, and then you and Bev and Maddie did Potion Permit, (0:02:05) Al: and then we did Fishing Break, you and Kev did Graveyard Keeper, and then we did Pumpkin Panic, (0:02:11) Al: an episode called “What is Stardew still missing?” which I don’t even remember doing, (0:02:15) Al: but apparently we did. Yeah, sure. (0:02:16) Kelly: I remember that. (0:02:17) Kelly: That’s when it came out for the PC. (0:02:23) Al: I need to see how many episodes we’ve done on Stardew, and then the Dave the Diver story episode. (0:02:29) Kelly: Oh, yes. (0:02:30) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:02:31) Al: And then this will be your 10th one, wild, there you go. (0:02:34) Kelly: So many fishing– (0:02:35) Kelly: farming games, not fishing games. (0:02:37) Kelly: Also fishing games. (0:02:38) Al: Well, yeah, one of them was specifically a fishing game. (0:02:41) Kelly: Yeah. (0:02:42) Al: And the others almost all have fishing in them. (0:02:44) Al: Does Dave the Diver count as fishing? (0:02:46) Kelly: I wanna say yes, but I feel like no, because realistically to me it’s the mechanic of fishing. (0:02:55) Al: Well, that’s why that’s why I’m questioning it. (0:02:58) Kelly: Like I think the fishing is so different. (0:02:58) Al: But like, there’s a lot. (0:03:02) Kelly: Would you count scuba diving and animal crossing as fishing? No, that’s like it. (0:03:07) Al: You’re not catching fish when you’re scuba diving, though. (0:03:08) Kelly: Oh, you’re not? Oh, the dive thing? No. (0:03:10) Al: No. (0:03:12) Al: No, you only catch fish with a fishing rod in Animal Crossing. (0:03:16) Al: You, there are, it’s quite, yeah, yeah. (0:03:16) Kelly: Is it just like clams? (0:03:18) Al: I think maybe as far as like a crab, but I don’t think there’s any fish. (0:03:23) Kelly: Okay. No, I would not count David Diver as a fishing game, honestly. (0:03:28) Al: Interesting. OK, that’s this is our controversy of the episode. (0:03:33) Al: Listeners, tell us, do you think Dave the Diver is a fishing episode or not? (0:03:40) Al: If you make me decide, I would say yes, it is a fishing game (0:03:44) Al: because I think that fishing would be catching fish. (0:03:48) Al: I don’t think you specifically have to use a fishing rod or a fishing net (0:03:52) Al: to count as fishing. (0:03:54) Kelly: I see your point. I think I’m going more off of the vibes of every other mini fishing game. (0:03:58) Al: Yeah. (0:04:01) Kelly: Because definition-wise, you’re correct. It is a fishing game. What else am I doing, (0:04:05) Kelly: if not fishing? But I wouldn’t count it with the fishing games. It almost is kind of like (0:04:06) Al: Yeah. I mean, I would say it’s a– Sure. Okay. I would say it is a fishing game, (0:04:11) Kelly: that little controversy they had with the indie game thing. Okay, okay. (0:04:18) Al: but not a cottagecore game, which is ironic because it’s a cottagecore podcast. And I feel (0:04:24) Al: like we had the discussion about whether it was cottagecore or not, multiple times throughout the (0:04:27) Al: summer. Anyway, five minutes discussion on the Diver who expected that. This episode, we are (0:04:34) Al: finally going to talk about Fields of (0:04:36) Al: Mistria. I realised that, apparently, Spotify has the (0:04:40) Al: ability to leave comments and I went on and noticed there’s a (0:04:43) Al: person on Spotify that has just been commenting regularly. Are (0:04:46) Al: you going to cover Fields of Mistria? So, yes, here we are (0:04:51) Al: covering Fields of Mistria. Shout out to you, our single (0:04:53) Kelly: For that one Spotify– (0:04:54) Al: commenter. I can’t even remember the name. Yeah, episodes as (0:05:01) Kelly: I didn’t know you could comment on Spotify stuff, either. (0:05:07) Al: Yeah, so there’s Jack. There we go. Jack, you’re the one who’s (0:05:12) Al: commented multiple times asking for Fields of Mistria. As (0:05:15) Kelly: Hey, Jack. I hope you enjoy this episode. (0:05:16) Al: recently as nine days ago. Yeah, I mean, we had decided to do (0:05:19) Kelly: This is personally for you, Jack. (0:05:25) Al: this before I even looked at Spotify. But yeah, sure. So (0:05:30) Al: we’re going to talk about Fields of Mistria. Before that, we (0:05:32) Al: We have some news. (0:05:36) Al: A bunch of new games and a bunch of updates. (0:05:39) Al: First of all, Kelly, what have you been up to? (0:05:42) Kelly: I have been playing a lot of Rimworld again, because I think it’s a (0:05:49) Kelly: like, I don’t know what it is, Stardew is like a march game for me. And I think Rimworld is a (0:05:57) Kelly: late fall game for me. So I am back to Rimworld, which is not cottagecore, but it is a lot of (0:06:01) Al: Okay. (0:06:04) Kelly: farming. I mean, I guess technically, you could play cottagecore style, because they do have like, (0:06:10) Kelly: No violence mode, which I have (0:06:12) Kelly: played because I just want to like build. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no. And then I’ve also (0:06:14) Al: yeah it’s a management game though isn’t it management style game yeah yeah I’m (0:06:18) Al: not playing it then (0:06:21) Kelly: been playing web fishing, which is really cute and fun and like, very simple, but like the core (0:06:27) Kelly: mechanic of fishing that I just enjoy in every farming game without like the deadline of having (0:06:33) Al: So. (0:06:35) Kelly: having to go to bed at night. (0:06:36) Al: So I have a question about that. (0:06:39) Al: I have been interested in this, but not enough to play it. (0:06:43) Al: But what do you do you interact with the chat room aspect of? (0:06:50) Kelly: You can play alone, or you can join a random lobby, or you can play with your friends. (0:06:55) Al: And what have you been doing? (0:06:56) Kelly: I have been either playing alone or playing with friends. I’m not really a big like, go into random people’s lobbies. (0:07:01) Al: OK, but you have you have done it with friends. (0:07:04) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:07:05) Al: What does that actually like? (0:07:08) Al: What is actually like? Is it audio? (0:07:10) Al: Is it text? It’s text. (0:07:10) Kelly: No, it’s text. It’s text. And then you kind of get the, like, Animal Crossing sounds as you hit send. It, like, does that. (0:07:20) Kelly: On top of your little chat and it pops up above your head and like, you also have like a little chat message bar so you could like see what you’ve been talking about. (0:07:29) Al: Okay. Okay. Okay. Because I hadn’t I know I looked through the screenshots and I hadn’t seen anything that actually showed the chat room aspect of it. It was all just like, you know, pictures of the fishing. (0:07:37) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it’s, it’s like a cute little aspect. I like that. I think it’s good (0:07:48) Kelly: that it’s like text. But very, very cute little game. Very cute. I just love fishing games. (0:07:49) Al: Yeah, yeah for sure (0:07:57) Kelly: I’m not going to lie. What have you been up to? (0:07:58) Al: Fair enough. (0:08:04) Al: I have obviously been playing Fields of Mistria quite a bit. (0:08:09) Al: We’ll talk about that when we come to it. (0:08:10) Al: I’ve also been keeping going with Marvel (0:08:13) Al: Snap and Pokemon Pocket. (0:08:16) Kelly: Oh, that’s the TCG one, right? (0:08:18) Kelly: I’ve been playing that. (0:08:19) Al: Yes, yes. (0:08:21) Kelly: I keep forgetting to open my pack, so– (0:08:24) Al: Do you not just open it when you get the notification, no? (0:08:26) Kelly: I don’t have notifications for things. (0:08:29) Al: OK, right, OK, so I turn off a lot of notifications, right? (0:08:34) Al: But, right, if you forget things, which. (0:08:39) Kelly: Yeah, but I’m just going to swipe the notification away. (0:08:40) Al: Yeah. (0:08:42) Al: No, you tap on it and then you open the app, open the gate, open the thing, right? (0:08:46) Al: You just do it then, you do it there and then it’s so fast. (0:08:46) Kelly: No, I’m not gonna do that. (0:08:49) Al: This is so this one, but this is the beauty of this game is it’s so fast. (0:08:53) Al: It’s like you open it and you press it and you get your five cards, you get your (0:08:53) Kelly: It is, that is nice. (0:08:56) Al: Dopamine hit, you swipe the app away the next- (0:08:58) Al: and the notification comes up, you do exactly the same thing. (0:09:00) Kelly: Al, listen. You’re right. I’m not going to try to fight you on this because you are 100% right. (0:09:02) Al: Ten seconds. (0:09:08) Kelly: However, many times I open the app and a message pops up that says, “You didn’t finish opening your card pack!” (0:09:16) Al: did stop doing that then. Yeah, I do. I do that. Yeah, I have to say, yeah, that is a bit of a (0:09:18) Kelly: So that is– [Laughter] (0:09:21) Al: problem. I don’t know why this game is so obsessed with that. It’s like you open up, you open a pack (0:09:26) Al: and you see it and then you write, close the app. And it’s like, I’ve seen my cards. I saw my cards, (0:09:28) Kelly: Mm-hmm because I forgot to like swipe it up. Yeah (0:09:32) Al: right? Don’t tell me I didn’t finish just because I haven’t gone and seen the 15 million animations (0:09:37) Kelly: Yeah, exactly. (0:09:37) Al: after that. It’s the same because it’s the same thing with, uh, with the battles, especially the (0:09:41) Al: solo battles is bizarre, right? Because it’s like, if you, you know, (0:09:46) Al: you do a battle and then you get annoyed because you lose. So you close, (0:09:49) Al: you just swipe the app away in anger. It’s like a really satisfying thing to do. (0:09:53) Al: And then you open it next time and it’s like, oh, did, you know, you didn’t finish this battle. (0:09:57) Al: I’m like, I did. I lost because I didn’t go through this stuff. Don’t make me relive this. (0:09:58) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, I actually I haven’t battled yet, but I completely understand. (0:10:01) Al: Why are you making me relive this? Go away. (0:10:10) Kelly: Yeah, but I do like the aspect of the whole idea that it is a two second app where you just open it open your card pack and then close it again. (0:10:18) Al: Perfect. That’s fair. That’s fair. But the problem is you can (0:10:18) Kelly: Like, I just want it for the cards I don’t want to really battle. (0:10:25) Al: get more cards by battling. Oh, yes. Absolutely. I don’t I (0:10:26) Kelly: Is it better than Pokemon Go? (0:10:28) Kelly: I’m not sure. (0:10:30) Kelly: Okay. (0:10:32) Kelly: Maybe I’ll try it, maybe I’ll try it. (0:10:34) Kelly: We’ll see. I gotta get more cards first. (0:10:36) Kelly: Yeah. (0:10:37) Al: don’t do PvP battles very much because like, you know, people (0:10:41) Al: suck. But I do there’s a lot of solo battles in the game. And (0:10:45) Al: know, there’s a new solo battle event going on right now. (0:10:48) Al: now that has unique cards for winning things. So yeah, against the computer. (0:10:51) Kelly: Oh, you can just play it yourself. (0:10:53) Kelly: Okay, okay, I didn’t I didn’t even look at that. (0:10:56) Al: The best bit is you can also tell the game to play for you. So you can have the computer (0:11:02) Al: playing against the computer. Yes, but what I do is when I’m sitting at my desk and I want just (0:11:04) Kelly: What? Kinda lazy? (laughs) (0:11:10) Al: a couple of battles and I don’t care about it because I’ve already beaten these battles, (0:11:14) Al: I just want to beat them more for more rewards (0:11:16) Al: Then I just have it sit (0:11:18) Al: In here I like just down on my phone (0:11:22) Al: Stand it’s just sitting there and it’s just doing the battles and every so often (0:11:27) Al: I look over it and see if I’ve won or lost and then I start again (0:11:30) Kelly: that is nice. I agree. That is a nice feature. Oh, yeah, I should go check mine. I do really (0:11:34) Al: Speaking of which I just got a notification that I’ve got packs. Let’s see. I’ve already got that already got that already got that (0:11:39) Al: Already got that no new cards great (0:11:43) Kelly: like looking at the card art, though. I think that’s the most fun of it. (0:11:46) Al: I’m just in an (0:11:48) Al: unfortunate position right now where I have most of the cards so most days I’m getting nothing (0:11:52) Kelly: Hmm. I only started like a week ago, I think. Also, I’ve noticed I’m very biased. I like almost (0:11:59) Kelly: never opened a Charizard pack. I know, I know. But I don’t want to. I know. I’m just, I have my own problem. (0:12:00) Al: Yeah, some of the cards are specific to that pack. (0:12:09) Al: I don’t know what to tell you. (0:12:15) Al: Anyway, so yeah, Pocket and Snap, I am at 98 on Snap now, so hopefully I’ll get to 100 by (0:12:22) Al: the end of Tuesday. We’ll see. And I’ve also started playing, speaking of playing games (0:12:31) Al: until the Game of the Year episode. I’ve been playing Luma Island as well, so yeah. (0:12:38) Al: I think it’s doing some interesting new things that I may or may not talk about in a week, and (0:12:45) Kelly: - Okay. (0:12:48) Al: I think I appreciate what it is doing, but I don’t know if it’s for me. (0:12:56) Al: But I’ve only put in like 15 hours into it so far, so. (0:13:00) Al: I’m gonna need more time to make that, isn’t it? (0:13:02) Kelly: I think that that sounds like it’ll be fun to see where it goes at least, (0:13:06) Al: Yeah. (0:13:07) Kelly: you know, and sometimes even if the mechanics aren’t for you, (0:13:09) Kelly: it’s like nice just to see people trying. (0:13:11) Al: Oh, for sure, for sure. (0:13:14) Al: All right, that’s what we’ve been up to. (0:13:18) Al: Next is our monthly segment of the recent releases, (0:13:22) Al: because this is only a second time doing it, but I decided that because there’s so many releases (0:13:28) Al: of games. (0:13:29) Al: And I’m always talking about the future. (0:13:30) Al: Talking about the past, I felt like people might want a monthly recap on what’s out (0:13:35) Al: in case they’ve heard of something that they’re like, “Oh, that’s something I want to play.” (0:13:40) Al: And now you can. (0:13:41) Al: So there have been four releases in November. (0:13:43) Al: I know it’s now December when you’re hearing this, but this is for November. (0:13:47) Al: So we have Farming Simulator 25. (0:13:50) Al: So if you love that Farming Simulator, there’s your new one, it’s out now. (0:13:55) Al: We also have Everhome, which I think… (0:14:01) Al: I don’t think that was previously Early Access, was it? (0:14:04) Al: No, I’m not seeing anything about Early Access, so that’s just a release now. (0:14:10) Kelly: Oh, that one looks cute. (0:14:11) Al: It does. (0:14:12) Al: It’s definitely on my list of “I want to play this,” but that list is very long. (0:14:15) Kelly: I’m going to add it to my list right now. (0:14:18) Al: And then we have Petite Island, which I’m pretty sure was in Early Access. (0:14:23) Al: So that is now 1.0. (0:14:25) Al: Is that correct? (0:14:26) Al: Oh, no. (0:14:27) Al: No, it’s not saying anything about Early Access. (0:14:28) Al: I was wrong. (0:14:30) Kelly: Honestly, with the amount of games that are in early access for forever, it’s like, (0:14:37) Kelly: who’s to remember anymore? Everything feels like it’s in early access. (0:14:42) Al: And and then Luma Island as well, which is also not in early access. (0:14:48) Al: So that’s four releases. (0:14:49) Al: None of them in early access. (0:14:51) Al: None of them have been in early access one unusual month. (0:14:54) Kelly: That is pretty crazy is it is it like I wonder if it’s like a pre-christmas thing (0:14:58) Al: Possibly, possibly. (0:14:59) Kelly: You know (0:15:00) Al: I do think a lot of I mean, a lot of games get delayed at this point. (0:15:04) Al: Like you don’t get a huge number of games coming out just now (0:15:06) Al: because they’ve either come out in October in time for, you know, (0:15:12) Al: the Christmas sale or they come out next year because they didn’t quite manage it. (0:15:18) Kelly: Mm hmm. Yeah, that. (0:15:18) Al: They don’t tend to like to come out in December or November (0:15:21) Al: because there’s too much happening. (0:15:25) Al: All right, next, we’ve got the news. (0:15:28) Al: The first news is a piece of news that I (0:15:30) Al: meant to talk about in the last episode, but I forgot (0:15:34) Al: because I didn’t write it down for some reason. (0:15:36) Al: And that is that they’ve announced a new series of stardew concerts. (0:15:40) Al: they had the previous series. (0:15:42) Al: Stargie Concerts that were called Festival of Seasons. (0:15:44) Al: The new ones are called Symphony of Seasons, and these are bigger. (0:15:49) Al: It’s a 35 piece orchestra. (0:15:52) Al: I believe the last one was under 20. (0:15:55) Al: I can’t remember exactly. (0:15:56) Al: I don’t know if it has it listed, but it was it was certainly much more intimate. (0:16:01) Al: It called it a chamber orchestra. (0:16:02) Al: Is that a specific number? (0:16:04) Al: I suspect not. (0:16:05) Al: Rona would be shouting at me if she was in the room. (0:16:06) Kelly: I have no idea. (0:16:07) Al: No, it just means just means small. (0:16:12) Al: So we may if you’ve not listened to it, me and Rona did a greenhouse episode on (0:16:18) Al: going to the previous Stargie Valley concert because Rona, my wife, is a big (0:16:23) Al: musician. She enjoys music. (0:16:26) Al: She does not play Stargie Valley. (0:16:27) Al: So it was a fun discussion to have about the music versus the the game sort of thing. (0:16:34) Al: I have successfully purchased tickets for the new concert. (0:16:37) Al: one the one that they’re doing in Scotland which (0:16:42) Al: obviously one is not very many, but we actually get one in many cases we don’t even get one. (0:16:47) Al: So I’m very happy to actually have one. (0:16:48) Kelly: Whoo! Whoo! Yeah, that is exciting. I forgot you went to the last round. (0:16:55) Al: And the Yeah, yeah. (0:16:58) Al: So that was earlier this year sometime, April or something. (0:17:04) Al: And that was in a converted church in Edinburgh. (0:17:08) Al: This new one is in 2026. (0:17:12) Al: It’s over a year away, which is just because of the time of the year that makes it sound (0:17:17) Al: even further away. (0:17:18) Al: It’s actually only like a year and two months away or something. (0:17:21) Al: I think it’s February. (0:17:22) Kelly: - Oh yeah, it’s heavy, all right. (0:17:22) Al: So it’s not that bad, but it does sound ridiculously far away. (0:17:30) Al: But they’re doing that, and this shows you how they’ve gone up a little bit. (0:17:32) Al: They’ve gone from a converted church in Edinburgh to the Royal Concert Hall in Glasgow, which (0:17:38) Al: which is, I think, three times the size. (0:17:42) Kelly: It’s, it’s, you know, you know, Stardew is big, but I think when you see it like in this kind of aspect, it’s like, wow. (0:17:48) Al: Yeah, this is their second world tour, and this one’s bigger. (0:17:52) Kelly: Yeah. (0:17:54) Kelly: The next one’s going to be stadium level concert. (0:17:58) Al: Yeah, I don’t think I would want to see stardew music in a stadium. (0:18:02) Kelly: No, I think this is much cuter. Yeah. Yeah. But no, that’s so that’s so cool. (0:18:03) Al: I feel like concert hall works best. (0:18:09) Al: So, yeah, it was funny because (0:18:11) Al: so there was a presale that if you signed up to the newsletter, you got the code. (0:18:14) Al: I signed up for that and then we got the code (0:18:17) Al: and then I forgot all about (0:18:18) Al: it. And it was like, because I had my laptop next to my work, because it was 9am on Monday. (0:18:24) Al: I had my personal laptop like next to my desk, ready to log on at nine, and then completely (0:18:29) Al: forgot. It was really unfortunate. And then I looked at the time, there was, I can’t remember (0:18:36) Al: what it was, I just randomly looked at the clock, and it was 11 o’clock and went, “Oh, (0:18:40) Al: the concert. Oh, no.” And so I went on and thankfully they still had. (0:18:49) Kelly: That’s good, especially because, like you said, you only have one night for Scotland, (0:18:53) Al: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And well, yeah. And it’s like I could go to England, but there’s only (0:18:54) Kelly: so it’s not like, “Oh, I could drive a few states over if I have to.” (0:19:01) Al: two in England and one of them is London, which is like four hour train ride or yeah. (0:19:06) Kelly: You wanna go to London? (0:19:07) Al: And who wants to go to London? And it’s like, it’s always annoying when you, cause like (0:19:11) Al: London gets the, cause I think you get like, obviously New York gets the, you know, Broadway (0:19:16) Al: musicals first cause obviously Broadway, uh, it’s kind of in the name. Um, but then they, (0:19:17) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:19:20) Al: They tend to go to London next and they take forever. (0:19:24) Al: You can always go to London for these things. (0:19:26) Al: It’s like, I don’t want to go to London, oh my word. (0:19:29) Kelly: Yeah, I don’t even want to go into the city for some of this stuff, so I feel you (0:19:34) Al: London is one of them, and Manchester is the other one. (0:19:36) Al: Manchester, despite being further north, is harder to get to than London. (0:19:41) Kelly: Oh, really? I thought I thought that would be closer to you, honestly. (0:19:44) Al: If you’re driving, it’s faster. (0:19:46) Al: But if you’re getting the train, it’s more difficult. (0:19:48) Al: It takes longer to get there. (0:19:48) Kelly: Mm. That makes sense. (0:19:50) Al: because they’ve got like a super fast train from Edinburgh to… (0:19:53) Al: London. It’s like four hours on the train which is fine but then it becomes a whole weekend thing (0:20:01) Al: rather than a night thing. Whereas this is, it starts at 7pm it’s like I can get my kids (0:20:08) Al: mostly ready for bed and then head off and then be back in for midnight. (0:20:13) Kelly: Yeah, you know, that’s nice. Yeah, that’ll be exciting. I didn’t realize it was, I mean, (0:20:18) Kelly: like you said, it’s only like a year basically away. (0:20:20) Al: Yeah, I think the American dates start in like August or something. (0:20:25) Kelly: Mm-hmm. Yeah, end of August. (0:20:26) Al: Yeah, the first dates in Seattle. (0:20:30) Kelly: I will say it’s funny. There’s no New York City date. (0:20:33) Kelly: It’s only upstate New York and New Jersey. (0:20:35) Al: Oh, that’s funny. Is that because New York City is just stupidly expensive to? (0:20:40) Kelly: That’s what I was about to say is it’s definitely because of that. (0:20:42) Al: Of all the places, of all the places in the world, it’s like you do not want to do that. (0:20:47) Kelly: Yeah. So that one makes a lot– because at first I was like, wow, there’s no New York City one. (0:20:54) Kelly: but there is a new (0:20:55) Kelly: New Jersey, which is close enough. (0:20:57) Kelly: I would go there instead of Albany. (0:21:00) Al: Yes, yeah, because, well, I don’t know where New York is, but New Jersey’s closer, I mean, (0:21:06) Al: much of New Jersey is closer to you than most of New York, right? I know, because I read (0:21:09) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, exactly. (0:21:14) Al: a lot of Ms. Marvel Comics, and she’s based in New Jersey City. (0:21:19) Kelly: Yeah, those are my sister works, actually, (0:21:21) Kelly: right across the water. (0:21:23) Kelly: It’s nice there now. (0:21:24) Kelly: They’ve been making it nicer. (0:21:24) Al: New York is right there. You’ve got New York, and then you’ve got Manhattan, and then you’ve (0:21:32) Al: got Jersey City, and then you’ve got New York. That looks… Yeah, that would… Yeah. (0:21:33) Kelly: No, yeah, literally. (0:21:38) Kelly: Oh, they put all their businesses on that side, (0:21:40) Kelly: I’m pretty sure, because they’re like tax reasons. (0:21:42) Al: Because there’s also casinos in New Jersey as well, isn’t there? (0:21:43) Kelly: You know? (0:21:46) Kelly: Mm-hm. We have them in New York now, just they’re more limited. Yeah, there was one that (0:21:49) Al: Howdy! (0:21:52) Al: I thought New York was quite strict with gambling. (0:21:55) Kelly: they were, I think when I was like in my early 20s, stuff started to change (0:22:02) Kelly: and they opened up a casino near where I lived. But I think they were, it wasn’t, you know, (0:22:08) Kelly: as open as like other states are with the gambling even inside of there. You know, (0:22:13) Kelly: like not every game I guess is allowed or stuff like that. Difference. (0:22:17) Kelly: I don’t know what gambling rules are. I just go in and I pull the lever. (0:22:23) Al: - Okay. (0:22:27) Kelly: But yeah, usually people from New York would go to Jersey to gamble because it’s better over there. (0:22:32) Al: It’s really funny, I’m just looking at the Google Maps and I knew there was weird stuff around (0:22:36) Al: exactly who owned Ellis Island and Liberty Island and I noticed that on Google Maps it has most of (0:22:44) Al: Ellis Island listed as New Jersey with like a big chunk of it including the Immigrations Museum (0:22:52) Al: listed as New York. So it’s like because you’re over the line, technically the island is within (0:22:53) Kelly: Oh, that’s funny. (0:22:58) Al: New Jersey. So most of it is New Jersey, but then there’s like an (0:23:02) Al: exclave of New York. We love border disputes. Did you know that Greenland and Canada now (0:23:04) Kelly: I forgot about that whole debacle. (0:23:13) Kelly: Who doesn’t? (0:23:20) Al: have a land border due to a solved border dispute? Yeah, so there’s an island between (0:23:23) Kelly: No, I did not (0:23:27) Al: mainland Greenland mainland Greenland between (0:23:32) Al: Greenland Greenland and like the very north of Canada. (0:23:36) Al: What is that? (0:23:37) Al: It doesn’t have a name. Nobody cares about it. (0:23:41) Al: Which is like right in the middle of the water, (0:23:44) Al: which is where they put the border between them. (0:23:47) Al: So it like crosses the island. (0:23:48) Al: So they spent decades arguing over who owned it. (0:23:52) Al: And then eventually they decided they just split it. (0:23:53) Al: So now technically it’s half and half. (0:23:55) Al: So they have a land border there. (0:23:57) Kelly: that’s cool. It’s kind of like the two little islands in the bearings straight between what (0:23:59) Al: Thank you. (0:24:02) Al: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:24:03) Kelly: are they called? Something with a D. I don’t remember. Yeah. Yeah. That one’s messed up though (0:24:06) Al: Diomede, a big Diomede and little Diomede. (0:24:10) Kelly: because like people live there and then they can’t, they got split up and now they can’t see their (0:24:11) Al: Yeah. (0:24:14) Kelly: relatives. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But you can’t cross that ice. It’s not allowed. (0:24:15) Al: Well, and it’s, and it’s essentially a land border half of the year anyway, because of the ice. (0:24:23) Al: Well, not, well, yeah, not allowed is very different from Kant. (0:24:27) Kelly: That’s true. That’s very true. (0:24:29) Al: Anyway, enough about geography. (0:24:32) Al: That’s the Stardew Valley Concert. (0:24:33) Al: Are you going to go to any of them? (0:24:34) Al: You’re going to go to the New Jersey one? (0:24:36) Kelly: Probably not, no. Yeah, probably not. (0:24:44) Kelly: It would be cool, but no. Yeah, no. I’m very excited for you. That is very cool. (0:24:46) Al: I’m excited for it. (0:24:52) Al: We don’t go to stuff very often because kids. (0:24:54) Al: So this year we went to the Stardew Concert (0:24:56) Al: and we went to Hamilton. (0:24:58) Al: Hamilton were in Edinburgh. (0:25:00) Al: And then next year, next year. (0:25:00) Kelly: Oh, nice. What is that? (0:25:02) Al: Next year, we’re going to see six. (0:25:04) Al: I think that’s what it’s called. (0:25:06) Al: So I believe it’s about Henry VIII’s wives. (0:25:08) Kelly: Oh, you know what? I think I might have heard something about this, actually. (0:25:11) Al: You’ll probably have seen music from it on TikTok. (0:25:15) Al: It’s all over the place. (0:25:15) Kelly: Yeah, that makes sense. TikTok is a great marketing ploy for that. (0:25:17) Al: So yeah, so many, so many musicals I’ve learned about that, yeah. (0:25:25) Kelly: Yeah, they’re really catchy. They get stuck in your head really well. (0:25:31) Al: Yeah, it’s a modern retelling of the lives of the six waves of Henry VIII. (0:25:36) Kelly: Okay. That’s cool. Yeah. No, yeah, yeah. Yeah, why not? And that’s fun. And now that you (0:25:38) Al: All I know is the music’s catchy, and Rona wants to see it, and I was like, yeah, let’s (0:25:45) Al: go see it, because I like the music. (0:25:49) Kelly: can, like, now that the kids are a little older and can actually get out a little bit (0:25:53) Kelly: more. It’s like, why not? (0:25:54) Al: So that’s our one for next year. (0:25:56) Al: And then we’ve got the Stardew concert the year after. (0:26:01) Al: Maybe I’ll see Wicked in 2026. (0:26:04) Kelly: Oh, yes, I want that to come out. I want them to release that on the streaming so that I don’t have to go into the theater for it. (0:26:10) Al: So here’s an interesting thing for you, apparently you can go into the New York Public Library (0:26:20) Al: and watch it. (0:26:20) Kelly: Oh, but I didn’t have to go to Manhattan. (0:26:21) Al: No, I know, I know, right? (0:26:26) Al: But you can, at least. (0:26:27) Al: I can’t. (0:26:28) Kelly: Yes. Okay. Okay. Okay. That’s fair. That’s fair. That’s fair. (0:26:29) Al: Yes, it would be work, but less work than going to the theatre. (0:26:30) Kelly: It would be a trek to get there and then have to sit there and watch it. (0:26:38) Kelly: Yes. I’ve heard it’s a lot of sing-alongs in the theaters, (0:26:42) Al: Goodness, thankfully, I live in a very, a place where it is unacceptable to sing. (0:26:44) Kelly: which I’m happy for those theater kids, but you know, I don’t, I’m not a theater. (0:26:54) Al: So when we went to see the film, there were not people singing. (0:26:59) Kelly: I wish. (0:27:00) Al: This is what is unusual. (0:27:01) Kelly: My mom, actually. (chuckles) (0:27:02) Al: This is what is unusual is actually the people clapped at the end of it. (0:27:06) Al: I have never had people clap at the end of the film. (0:27:07) Kelly: Oh, it’s like clapping when a flight lands. (0:27:11) Kelly: I hate both of those. (0:27:12) Kelly: I hate those kind of people. (chuckles) (0:27:12) Al: There is one situation where clapping when a flight lands is acceptable, (0:27:16) Kelly: Yes, yes. (0:27:16) Al: and that is when you thought you were going to die. (0:27:18) Kelly: Yeah. (chuckles) (0:27:20) Kelly: Every other time, it’s just like, (0:27:22) Kelly: that guy was just doing his job or her job, (0:27:24) Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:27:26) Kelly: like, this is how it should go, don’t clap. (0:27:29) Al: If you thought you were going to die or you’re flying Ryanair. (0:27:35) Al: All right, so let’s get into some game news now. (0:27:37) Al: So the first in the news is Sunheavour. (0:27:40) Al: I’ve announced their UK, Switzerland, and New Zealand release date. (0:27:46) Al: If you’re not up to date with the weird situation here, I will just summarize it. (0:27:51) Al: Sunheaven announced their America’s release date, and then they announced their Asian (0:27:57) Al: release dates. (0:27:59) Al: And then they announced most of Europe and also Australia, but not Switzerland, the United (0:28:05) Al: Kingdom, and New Zealand. (0:28:07) Al: And I, at the time, and still do think they just forgot. (0:28:10) Al: Well, so the Switzerland and United Kingdom I noticed were alphabetically at the end of the list, after all the other countries, so I just think they just copied and pasted incorrectly. (0:28:12) Kelly: ‘Cause I was like, what a weird bunch of countries to kind of like… (0:28:26) Al: I’m not sure why New Zealand, maybe they just forgot it existed, but I’m not 100% sure what the system. (0:28:34) Kelly: Because I would think New Zealand and Australia would be paired together like (0:28:36) Al: Well, so, so, right, OK, so… (0:28:40) Al: The weird thing about… So, the way the eShop works is there are, I think, six different regions. (0:28:47) Al: There is one for North America and one for South America, one for Europe, Australia, (0:28:55) Al: and New Zealand, and South Africa, I believe, and then there’s one for Japan, one for Hong Kong, (0:29:02) Al: and one for South Korea. Was that six? That was six. I believe that’s all of them. (0:29:04) Kelly: Okay. Yeah. (0:29:09) Al: what I understand based. (0:29:10) Al: So I think this is just them like cleaning up after their mistake and not admitting it, (0:29:30) Al: which is weird. And I also think the reason that they got they released it region by region is (0:29:36) Al: because they didn’t realize there were multiple regions until they’d already added it. (0:29:41) Al: To the Americas one. (0:29:42) Kelly: That’s so funny! (0:29:45) Al: And the problem is we don’t know any of this because the Sunhaven developers are very bad (0:29:49) Al: at communicating their discard after they announced the European release date before (0:29:54) Al: they announced that also included United Kingdom Switzerland and New Zealand was just people (0:29:59) Al: saying, so is it not coming to the UK? Is it coming a different date? What’s happening? (0:30:03) Al: And it turns out it’s exactly the same date, which would back up my they just forgot to tell you (0:30:08) Al: about it because there are two. (0:30:10) Al: There is a possibility of that, but I mean, generally the regions are very similar politically. (0:30:29) Kelly: which I could see because it’s like, aren’t some countries kind of (0:30:40) Kelly: Yeah, that’s true. (0:30:41) Al: But if that is the case, what happened was they ticked all of the boxes except the UK, (0:30:48) Al: Switzerland, and New Zealand. They did not check those boxes and then they put in a different (0:30:53) Al: release and checked just those three countries. Because it’s not even like an EU versus not EU (0:31:01) Al: thing, because Norway was in the first release and is not in the EU, and obviously Australia is (0:31:01) Kelly: No, it’s a, it’s a weird. (0:31:06) Al: is not in the EU and Switzerland is not in the EU but for (0:31:10) Al: and purposes regulatorily it is the same and the UK is mostly the same because obviously it was in (0:31:17) Al: the EU until four years ago so it’s a bit of a mess I miss clicks or copy and paste mistake which (0:31:22) Kelly: Yeah, that’s, that’s, that sounds like a misclick, a few misclicks, for sure. (0:31:31) Al: is what I think I think they went and tried to copy the entire list and just missed the last two (0:31:35) Al: of them. (0:31:38) Kelly: and then did not even like acknowledge it or any like. (0:31:41) Al: Yeah well that’s the weird thing right? Like people have been talking about this from the (0:31:45) Al: moment they published their post about it coming to Europe and they said nothing (0:31:51) Al: and so like if they had just it almost feels like they just don’t want to admit their mistakes (0:31:56) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But they could just make a joke about it like this. People would (0:31:56) Al: and but why in such a weird way? Yeah! (0:32:01) Kelly: find it funny like it’s not a it’s an inconsequential mistake like nobody’s. (0:32:06) Al: Yeah. And the people already think they don’t communicate. And so making this weird like, (0:32:13) Al: oh, we weren’t wrong. We were right all along. Thing just makes it seem even weirder. Oh, (0:32:22) Al: anyway, living on. We have one DLC release. So Everdream Valley have announced a family (0:32:31) Al: time DLC. This is coming to Steam on the 6th of December and then in consoles. (0:32:36) Al: Next year Q1. This has new story quests, new NPCs, new animals and new furniture. That’s (0:32:45) Al: an interesting thing to put in a DLC. Well, quests, were quests, animals and furniture. (0:32:52) Al: I guess NPCs like, I guess that’s not an unusual thing to put like new characters in, but the (0:32:54) Kelly: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, like I could see, like a lot of games will do like a new DLC with (0:33:03) Kelly: more quests. You know, so maybe. Yeah, yeah, that’s how I would take it. Yeah, like it’s (0:33:04) Al: Mm hmm. Yes. Yeah. Okay. I guess. Yeah. They’re not saying like this is by the DLC to get (0:33:10) Al: quests. It’s the DLC comes with quests. Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. The furniture (0:33:13) Kelly: like additional furniture, additional quests, additional NPCs kind of thing that that’s I (0:33:17) Kelly: could be wrong. But that’s how I would read it. Yeah, that’s just add on. (0:33:19) Al: is, I guess, not weird because it’s just like that’s pretty common thing. And then we have (0:33:24) Al: three updates to games. Snacko have released their builder’s dream update, which I’m sure (0:33:30) Al: you can guess where that is. It’s a whole bunch of crafting building stuff. (0:33:34) Al: Lots of good improvements. And I guess we’re not getting Snacko 1.0 this year. (0:33:41) Al: We’re probably getting next year. Because that’s 0.9.5. So close. (0:33:44) Kelly: They intentionally just decided we’re going to add a few more digits into this. (0:33:55) Kelly: It looks so cute though, I wanted to come out. (0:33:57) Al: Yeah, at this point I’m like, because I’ve not played it since the early access came out, (0:34:01) Al: I did play a very early alpha of it. Because I’ve not played it since the early access (0:34:07) Al: come out, at this point I’m like, I just need to wait for the 1.0, right? (0:34:10) Kelly: Yeah. Yeah, because I feel like at this point, it’s like if you don’t wait for the 1.0, (0:34:15) Kelly: like what are you getting out of the 1.0 when it comes out? (0:34:17) Al: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. I will, I will say, I will say, Snacko Devs, listen to me. (0:34:25) Al: We’re good friends, we’ve talked before. (0:34:27) Al: Listen to me now, do not release this in December. (0:34:30) Al: You released the early access last December. (0:34:32) Al: Do not, do not do this. (0:34:35) Al: I beg of you, January, January’s fine. (0:34:39) Al: Do not release your 1.0 in December. (0:34:41) Al: I will cry. (0:34:43) Al: I will cry. (0:34:44) Al: Thank you. (0:34:45) Kelly: - You’re gonna release it December 31st at… (0:34:48) Al: That’s OK, that’s December 31st is fine. (0:34:50) Al: That’s basically January, because I will have recorded all the episodes by then (0:34:54) Al: for the year. It’s not like I need to then rush it, right? (0:34:57) Al: As a 2024 game, it was December the 31st. (0:35:00) Kelly: Also, I just love in their little notes the difference in communication where they literally (0:35:08) Kelly: have screenshots from the Discord talking about part of the updates here. (0:35:10) Al: Mm. Yeah. (0:35:13) Al: That is such a good point. (0:35:14) Al: Snacko Dev is fantastic with communication. (0:35:16) Al: Like they are literally just in the Discord talking to people. (0:35:20) Al: Sunhaven, I have never seen a single one of them talk in the Discord. (0:35:26) Al: Yeah, definitely. (0:35:28) Al: Spiritity have released their Phantom Friends update, which adds a… (0:35:33) Al: You can have your spirits as pets now. (0:35:40) Al: Interesting change. (0:35:40) Kelly: to like follow you around. (0:35:41) Al: If, yeah, yeah, they follow you around and replace your existing… (0:35:48) Al: No, they don’t replace your existing spirit companion. (0:35:50) Al: They add to… (0:35:53) Kelly: I wonder if I should give this game another chance. (0:35:55) Kelly: It seems like they’ve added so much since I last played. (0:35:57) Al: possibly, yeah. (0:36:00) Kelly: But I have enough other farming games. (0:36:08) Kelly: That’s that. That was my issue. (0:36:13) Kelly: Yeah. (0:36:18) Kelly: Now that is a good point, because I feel like I just at its core, (0:36:21) Kelly: I felt kind of listless playing the game. (0:36:25) Kelly: So, yeah, I think you do have a good point. (0:36:27) Kelly: I just like I want to like it so much. (0:36:30) Al: I agree. I also want to like it. Um, but I guess about it, that counts, right? (0:36:36) Kelly: - Yeah, it does have very positive reviews, (0:36:38) Kelly: so obviously other people are enjoying it. (0:36:39) Al: Which is good, which is good. And it’s, you know, yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. Um, (0:36:39) Kelly: So I’m glad, yeah, I’m glad. (0:36:41) Kelly: ‘Cause I do like, I like the whole concept. (0:36:47) Al: and it’s over 500 reviews as well. So it’s not, it’s not like they’re, they must be getting (0:36:52) Al: enough. That’s, you know, 500 reviews means quite a lot more people buying it, right? Because (0:36:57) Al: most people do not review your game. (0:37:00) Kelly: Yeah, no, I don’t think I think I’ve reviewed like two games (0:37:00) Al: I don’t know if I’ve reviewed any of them on Steam. (0:37:09) Al: They’ve also added new spirits, so that’s what you care about in the game, right? (0:37:15) Al: The spirits. (0:37:16) Al: So there you go. (0:37:19) Al: And the final update is Far Lands. (0:37:22) Al: I’ve released their 0.3 update. (0:37:25) Al: This is the biggest update Far Lands has seen to date. (0:37:30) Al: It adds achievements, which is always a good thing. (0:37:34) Al: Another game we’re about to talk about later on in this episode could have. (0:37:37) Al: That would be great. (0:37:38) Al: Please and thank you. (0:37:42) Kelly: I also love achievements. (0:37:44) Kelly: It’s honestly one of the big things (0:37:45) Kelly: that I really like from not playing (0:37:47) Kelly: as many games on the Switch and switching over to PC. (0:37:48) Al: Mm, yeah, I wonder if, well, almost every game feels a mystery. I wonder if, because (0:37:51) Kelly: I’m like, oh, achievements in every game. (0:37:54) Kelly: How nice. (0:37:59) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:38:05) Al: obviously they have been slowly getting more and more features as they get a lot, you know, (0:38:10) Al: like the 3DS added a bunch of stuff that other games, other systems had, and then the Switch (0:38:16) Al: called Mostly Modern. (0:38:18) Al: Maybe the next switch you’ll have. (0:38:23) Kelly: Maybe. I always wonder, I didn’t know what the issue was, to be honest, because I know (0:38:28) Kelly: when some people, what is it called, port the games to the Switch, like I know for HoloNet (0:38:34) Kelly: I can’t do video screenshots. I could do plain image screenshots. Yeah, because I think it’s (0:38:37) Al: Yeah, interesting. That, so I believe the video screenshots is something they can disable. (0:38:46) Kelly: about how hard it is for the person porting it to, I guess… Okay. (0:38:51) Al: I don’t think that requires any work on their point. I think it’s more a case of they didn’t (0:38:53) Kelly: Which is, yeah, because it’s weird, because you can record it on every other device. But (0:38:55) Al: want to add that feature. I’m not sure why, but… Yeah. (0:39:03) Kelly: that was also one of the ones where I don’t have achievements, and I know there’s achievements (0:39:06) Kelly: for that game. Yeah. (0:39:07) Al: And some games add them into the game itself, like they’ll add, but that’s a lot of work. (0:39:11) Al: The whole point of the achievements in Steam and stuff is that they’re very easy to do, (0:39:16) Al: because it’s literally just, “Here’s my list of achievements,” and then you put in the code to say (0:39:20) Al: when the achievement is hit. Yeah, because it doesn’t have… Switch doesn’t have an achievement (0:39:22) Kelly: Oh, so that’s the issue is that it’s just hard to add them in on the switch, like the switch doesn’t make it okay. (0:39:29) Al: system. So if you want to have it on the Switch, you have to build it entirely yourself. And it (0:39:34) Kelly: Uh, I’m dumb. I understand now. (0:39:34) Al: And it would be only within game because there are a. (0:39:38) Al: Couple of games that have done that they’ve recreated the achievement system in their own game, but then it only works for that game and it takes a lot of work to do that. (0:39:40) Kelly: Mm hmm. (0:39:42) Kelly: Mm hmm. (0:39:46) Kelly: Yeah, okay, that makes sense. That makes a lot more sense. (0:39:47) Al: Whereas with steam and with Xbox and with PlayStation there’s a piece of code that they can call which just does the achievement for them so. (0:39:54) Kelly: Okay, I knew it was something to do with how it set up, but I never looked into the actual basic why behind it (0:40:02) Al: They’ve added to upgrade system as well. (0:40:04) Al: They’ve added food, they’ve added house upgrade system, they’ve added new (0:40:07) Al: furniture, they’ve added guests and better NPCs, one of which looks like a xenomorph. (0:40:12) Al: Not sure why. (0:40:14) Kelly: I like his jacket. (0:40:14) Al: Legally distinct, legally distinct xenomorph. (0:40:20) Al: Yeah, it looks like a pretty big update. (0:40:21) Al: I haven’t played this game yet. I do want that. (0:40:24) Kelly: Yeah, it’s on my list of games to check out. I just I tried to avoid most early access, honestly. (0:40:33) Al: Good thing we’re not talking about an early access today then (0:40:39) Kelly: Is it generally? (0:40:42) Al: So that’s the game updates. (0:40:43) Al: We now have three new games to talk about, (0:40:47) Al: the first of which actually, no, let’s go the other way around. (0:40:49) Al: Let’s talk about Dreamland Farm first, (0:40:51) Al: because I think this will be the quickest to talk about. (0:40:55) Al: Dreamland Farm. (0:40:56) Al: Since childhood, you’ve dreamed of being close to nature, (0:40:59) Al: but being born and raised in the city stood in the way of that. (0:41:02) Al: The closer you were to adulthood, the more time you spent with your grandma, (0:41:05) Al: who showed you all around her own farm, from crops to berries and mushrooms, (0:41:09) Al: everything she knew, she taught you, she prepared you to be her (0:41:12) Al: successor. I mean that’s just every farming game. I don’t know. I don’t know. And what (0:41:16) Kelly: - Yeah, why do they all do that? (0:41:19) Al: I find really interesting is like, so if you have a farming game, the description should (0:41:25) Al: tell you what’s different about it. Don’t be like, oh, it’s a farming game. It’s like, (0:41:27) Kelly: Yeah. This time it’s your uncle and not your grandpa. (0:41:28) Al: yeah, we know that, right? It’s like, if you have, yeah, exactly, exactly. It’s like, come (0:41:36) Al: on. Let’s not, let’s not pretend. This one looks… (0:41:42) Al: Pretty… I don’t see anything unique in this, personally. (0:41:46) Kelly: I only gave it a cursory glance and it does look pretty. (0:41:52) Kelly: It doesn’t look like it’s breaking any boxes or molds or whatever though. (0:41:56) Al: But equally I also didn’t think about Fields of Mistria and didn’t want to play that until I decided, until it got a lot of buzz and I was like okay it’s time to play this one, you know, like, sometimes you can’t tell without playing it, which is a PR problem, obviously. (0:42:12) Kelly: Which goes back to your point of pointing out the differences (0:42:14) Kelly: and not the similarities. (0:42:19) Kelly: That’s what you need to get in touch with all the devs (0:42:22) Kelly: about is changing their PR management. (0:42:26) Al: I will be your PR. (0:42:29) Al: No, no, I will not. (0:42:32) Al: That is very much a conflict of interests. (0:42:36) Al: This one interestingly, so it’s now it’s on Switch and Xbox, it is not on Steam, which (0:42:41) Al: is interesting. (0:42:42) Kelly: Oh, that feels so backwards. (0:42:43) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:42:47) Al: I wonder why. (0:42:48) Kelly: I wonder right too, especially if it’s on x. (0:42:49) Al: Yeah, because it’s not like it’s they had an exclusivity deal with Switch, because then (0:42:54) Al: and they wouldn’t be on Xbox. (0:42:57) Al: And the Xbox version did come out like a week after the Switch version. (0:43:01) Al: That’s not long enough for it to be an exclusivity. (0:43:04) Kelly: - No. (laughs) (0:43:04) Al: So yeah, weird. (0:43:07) Al: I don’t know, I’ll keep an eye on it. (0:43:09) Kelly: Hopefully it’s good. (0:43:09) Kelly: Hopefully they got something unique in it. (0:43:11) Al: Yeah, yeah, hopefully. (0:43:13) Al: Hopefully. (0:43:14) Al: It’s 10 pounds. (0:43:16) Al: Is it 15 dollars? (0:43:18) Al: Probably. (0:43:20) Kelly: Probably something like that, yeah. (0:43:22) Al: So it feels cheap enough to like buy it and play it. (0:43:26) Al: And if you’re not bothered by it, then it’s not the end of the world sort of thing. (0:43:30) Al: Next we have RATOPIA. (0:43:33) Al: RATOPIA. (0:43:35) Al: I keep wanting to say RATOPIA, but it’s only one T, so it’s definitely RATOPIA. (0:43:38) Kelly: Uh, to be fair, I say rat topia (0:43:41) Al: Yeah, but there’s no second T. (0:43:42) Kelly: Well, he sounds better I know but it’s funner to say that way (0:43:47) Kelly: For the podcast, I will say rat topia (0:43:50) Al: RATOPIA. RATOPIA is a new game that is combined first of all, a new game, come on. What is (0:44:01) Al: that? I just feel like sometimes I feel like this this podcast is just me editing and critiquing (0:44:07) Al: the descriptions of games. Is a new game. Yeah, we know that. Don’t add that in. Also (0:44:13) Al: just a point, you don’t need to put your name in the description because your name is elsewhere (0:44:17) Al: on the page, right? Just right. (0:44:19) Kelly: Uh, you sound like somebody’s like third grade English teacher critiquing their (0:44:20)

Al and Kelly talk about the story of Dave the Diver Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:03:12: What Has Kelly Been Up To 00:04:19: Tangent 1 - The Scots Language 00:11:53: What Has Al Been Up To 00:21:22: News 00:35:50: Tangent 2 - Rockstar North 00:44:55: Dave The Diver Upcoming DLCs 00:53:45: Kelly’s Mechanics Thoughts 01:02:31: Dave The Diver Story 01:16:01: Tangent 3 - Game Hyperfocus 01:18:44: Dave Story Conclusion 01:29:12: Outro Links Research Story “0.9” Update Sprittea “Moving & Grooving” Update Loddlenaut “Goddles” Update Outlanders “Wandering Star” DLC Rune Factory: Guardians of Azuma Trailer Dave the Diver Upcoming DLCs Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Al: Hello Divers, and welcome to another episode of The Harvest Season. (0:00:34) Al: My name is Al, and we are here today to talk about Cottagecore games. (0:00:36) Kelly: and my name is kelly (0:00:41) Kelly: whoo (0:00:42) Al: We’ve not come to a conclusion on whether David the Diver is a Cottagecore game or not. (0:00:45) Kelly: maybe it’s like a bungalow, like you know bungalows are the the the cottages of beach towns (0:00:50) Al: Well, the problem there, right, so if Cottagecore games are for lesbians, what are bungalow games (0:00:57) Al: for? (0:00:58) Al: games for them. (0:00:59) Kelly: non-binary people (0:01:01) Al: I’ll take it. (0:01:04) Al: All right, excellent. (0:01:04) Kelly: I don’t know! (0:01:07) Al: Fantastic. Well, OK, so I think it is a college school game, right? (0:01:11) Al: Because, yes, there are some, like, stakes and stuff, but there’s fewer stakes, I think, than, say, Stardew Valley. (0:01:18) Kelly: Yeah, and I would say also it’s like you still have like the mines in Stardew Valley? (0:01:23) Al: Exactly. Yeah, that’s what I’m meaning. The mines in Stardew Valley are definitely scarier (0:01:28) Al: than most in here. But you can’t ignore nighttime entirely if you want to. The only stuff that (0:01:28) Kelly: Yeah, I would say that the nighttime is the scary part. (0:01:39) Al: only spawns in the night are some fish, which you want if you want to collect the collection, (0:01:44) Al: and a few optional side quests. I don’t think any part of the story is required for you (0:01:49) Al: to go out at night? Or was there one, maybe? (0:01:50) Kelly: I think there was, unless I’m mistaken, I think there was one with the more eels. (0:01:53) Al: There was one. Yeah. (0:01:57) Kelly: It’s been a while. I played that part I think a year ago now so that’s (0:02:03) Kelly: been a while, but I think one part was required and then after that it was like (0:02:07) Kelly: you don’t have to do this again. (0:02:10) Al: So yeah, I think it counts. If Stardew counts this counts. (0:02:13) Kelly: Yeah, I think so. You have farms, you have little (0:02:18) Al: You do, you do. (0:02:18) Kelly: Fish tanks and chickens. (0:02:21) Al: Yeah, the chickens is the most un-feature-rich thing in the game. (0:02:27) Kelly: Yeah. (0:02:28) Al: Chickens exist and if you turn up you get an egg. Great, congrats. (0:02:32) Kelly: You can name them, but you can’t pet them. (0:02:36) Al: All right, cool. So we are here to talk about (0:02:40) Al: well, we’re here for the final episode of Dave the Diver Month. (0:02:44) Al: Two weeks late. (0:02:49) Al: And I’ve got Kelly along to talk about the story for Dave the Diver. (0:02:52) Kelly: Hey, um, I loved this game. I got it, I think the day it came out, and I played it until my fingers hurt. (0:03:01) Kelly: So, weirdo, oh, yeah, yeah. (0:03:03) Al: So hopefully we’ll have lots to talk about in the main topic then. (0:03:08) Al: Exciting. So before that, we obviously have some news. First of all, Kelly, what have you been (0:03:14) Kelly: I have been actually getting ready for a trip to Scotland. (0:03:21) Al: Woo! (0:03:21) Kelly: Woo! (0:03:22) Kelly: But besides that, I’ve been playing Day of the Diver to catch up on the DLCs, playing (0:03:29) Kelly: Solitaire because that is my brain-dead dissociation game, and I’ve actually started doing Dooling (0:03:38) Kelly: Go again, which has been interesting. (0:03:40) Al: In fact, what are you learning? (0:03:42) Kelly: I decided to try Japanese, ‘cause I– (0:03:44) Al: Okay. (0:03:44) Kelly: I’ve tried Spanish, I’ve done German, I’ve done Italian. (0:03:48) Al: So you’re not trying to learn any Scottish Gaelic, or I think Scots is on there as well. (0:03:52) Kelly: No. (0:03:56) Kelly: I didn’t even think about that, to be honest. (0:03:58) Kelly: Which would have been interesting, ‘cause I was just like, (0:04:00) Kelly: “Oh, let me try something that’s completely different than, you know, any of the, like, uh, Latin languages, or German language.” (0:04:09) Al: Germanic. No, it’s just Gallic. They don’t have Scots. I thought they had, I thought (0:04:10) Kelly: Yeah. (0:04:15) Al: I’d seen some where they have Scots, but they don’t. Is it? So, well, okay, so this is gonna (0:04:18) Kelly: Interesting. Can you speak, Scotts? (0:04:22) Al: be a whole tangent, but we’re going for it anyway. I’m just checking. Yeah, Google doesn’t (0:04:27) Al: have it either, it just has Gallic. They all call them Scots Gallic, which is technically (0:04:32) Al: not true, because Scots is a language and Gallic is a language. Gallic is a language (0:04:36) Kelly: Mm. (0:04:39) Al: longer than Scotland has existed. But anyway, that’s not neither here nor there. So I definitely (0:04:44) Al: can’t speak Gallic. I can speak some Scots, but a lot of the Scots that I know is not (0:04:51) Al: stuff that I knew was a different language. So when I was, a lot of people in Scotland (0:04:54) Kelly: Okay. (0:04:57) Al: grow up learning what some people refer to as Scottish English, which is like a weird (0:05:03) Al: amalgamation amalgamation of English and Scots. And so (0:05:08) Kelly: So kind of like Spanglish, like when people grow up in like, you know, like mixing Spanish and English words in the theme. (0:05:09) Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it’s when you start to like encounter people outside, you (0:05:20) Al: realise, oh wait, this word that I’ve been using is a word that is not English, right? (0:05:26) Al: And to a lot of people, they would just think it’s, oh, it’s just a dialect word, right? (0:05:30) Al: But it’s from a different language. We just use it not in… So I would never use an entire (0:05:36) Al: sentence in Scots because that’s just not how I grew up. (0:05:39) Al: But a lot of the words that I would use, obviously not on the podcast, not when I’m (0:05:46) Al: working because I don’t work with many Scottish people, but like in my day-to-day life, there (0:05:51) Al: are a lot of words that I would use that would be Scots. Like for example, in the classic (0:05:56) Al: Scottish way, I’m going to use a weather word, a word about the weather. So the weather here (0:06:02) Al: today is drich, and that is a Scots word that means, it basically means overcast, right? (0:06:09) Al: Like it’s cloudy, it’s just not nice, it’s like it’s not sunny, but it’s not like pouring down (0:06:14) Al: with rain, it’s just, it’s drich. So that is an example of a Scots word that I would use (0:06:16) Kelly: okay (0:06:20) Al: most days because of the weather. It does, yeah, it’s a d, drich. (0:06:21) Kelly: is that does it start with a D or a B so so is it kind of like it almost reminds (0:06:28) Kelly: me of like dreary you know what I mean in this sense and I would kind of use (0:06:29) Al: Yeah, it’s, yeah, yeah, it’s kind of, it definitely, yeah, I would say, yeah, they’re almost synonyms. (0:06:33) Kelly: that word to (0:06:39) Al: I would say that drich, I think, can be used in other contexts, whereas drich entirely would be (0:06:42) Kelly: Outside of weather. Yeah. (0:06:45) Al: about the weather. So like you would talk about, oh, that’s a drichy meeting, or people were drich, (0:06:46) Kelly: No, that totally makes sense. Is- so he’s like… (0:06:51) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:06:52) Al: or whatever, but you couldn’t say something else with drich other than the weather. So yeah, that, (0:06:56) Kelly: Okay, that makes sense. That’s so interesting. Is… (0:06:59) Kelly: like, I’m gonna totally butcher this, but like, (0:07:03) Kelly: can I? Like, how do you say that? C-A-N-N-A-E? Is that considered Scots? (0:07:10) Al: Oh canny. Yeah, that would be another. So this is where we get into some technicalities of (0:07:10) Kelly: Yes. Yes. Yes. (0:07:17) Al: where English comes from. So modern English is itself, it comes from not just old English, (0:07:28) Al: but it also comes from old Scots, and old is, you know, auld lang syne, that’s A-U-L-D, (0:07:32) Kelly: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. (0:07:35) Al: that’s Scots for old. And so a lot of English words… (0:07:40) Al: Scots are, you know, very similar to Scots words because, you know, both languages come (0:07:45) Al: from both old languages, Old English and Old Scots. (0:07:47) Kelly: Okay (0:07:48) Kelly: So it’s kind of like it’s like Portuguese and Spanish and like German and like Dutch kind of where it’s like you can (0:07:49) Al: Yeah, yeah. A very… exactly. Yeah, and you wouldn’t know every word and these sorts of (0:07:55) Kelly: Understand them, but they’re not exactly the same (0:08:00) Al: things, but some words you could maybe guess at, like “old”. Most people would be able (0:08:05) Al: to guess what that means, stuff like that. Different words. (0:08:06) Kelly: Mm-hmm. Yeah, in the context. (0:08:10) Al: Clearly different language, but, you know, you can kind of guess what it means because (0:08:14) Al: they’re similar languages, absolutely. But, like, one example of the Old English/Old Scots (0:08:19) Al: thing is, so you’ve got fox, the animal, and you know what the female fox is called? So (0:08:26) Kelly: I feel like I do, but not right now. (0:08:28) Al: it’s a vixen. So fox with an F and vixen with a V. I can never remember which one it is, (0:08:36) Al: in one of Old Scots and Old English. It’s Fox and Fixing. (0:08:40) Al: They can, they can, they can. The other interesting thing is that there’s also a lost letter from (0:08:50) Kelly: and v and f kind of can sound the same too, you know, yeah. (0:08:59) Al: Scots that is not used anymore thanks to the anglification of keyboards. So when (0:09:10) Al: typewriters started becoming a thing, they were obviously, they used the standard QWERTY (0:09:14) Al: layout that we’re using now. And the letter is called a yod, and it kind of looks like (0:09:20) Al: a cross between a z and a y. And it has a sound like a y sound. It’s kind of like a (0:09:22) Kelly: Okay. (0:09:24) Kelly: Okay. (0:09:26) Kelly: Okay. (0:09:29) Al: y, but it’s not quite the same. And I can give you an example of a word that this would (0:09:33) Al: be used in. Do you know the company that does all the logistics at airports? (0:09:40) Al: And they’re called Menzies, do you know them? M-E-N-C-I-E-S. So they do a lot of, like they (0:09:47) Al: are a huge worldwide company that do logistics at airports. So if you’re at an airport and (0:09:52) Al: you look out on airside and you see, you know, people with their high vis on, in most airports (0:09:59) Al: in the West, they will be Menzies employees. Which is actually fun fact, that company started (0:10:07) Al: out as a paper shop in Scotland. (0:10:10) Al: But that zed is not actually originally a zed, it was actually a yod. (0:10:10) Kelly: Oh, that’s cool. (0:10:18) Kelly: Okay. (0:10:19) Al: And so the word ‘menzies’ shouldn’t actually be said menzies, it said ‘mingies’. (0:10:25) Al: Yeah, and so there’s a lot of words, a lot of places in Scotland that you might notice this (0:10:30) Al: when you’re over here, a lot of places in Scotland that have zeds in their name in the middle, (0:10:34) Al: and it’s not actually a zed, it’s a yod. So there’s a place in near Glasgow, (0:10:40) Al: that’s called Calane, and that’s C-U-L-Z-E-A-N, but of course that zed was a yod, (0:10:47) Al: which is why it’s Calane, not Cal-Zane. (0:10:50) Kelly: Okay, so you guys all just acknowledge that it should be pronounced (0:10:56) Al: We just ignore the fact that it’s a zed, because that’s what you learn. (0:10:59) Kelly: Yeah (0:10:59) Al: I didn’t know for a long time that it wasn’t originally a zed. (0:11:03) Kelly: Okay (0:11:04) Al: But yeah, we don’t pronounce it like that. (0:11:06) Kelly: Okay, sorry to derail (0:11:07) Al: But yeah, so you will. (0:11:10) Al: So it’s fine, I’ll put this in specifically as a section on the Scots (0:11:15) Al: language for some reason. But yeah, so you might hear some people, (0:11:18) Al: if you ever see the paper shop that still does exist, Menzies, (0:11:21) Al: some people will call it Menzies, and some people call it Menzies, (0:11:25) Kelly: Oh, very interesting, that’s pretty cool. (0:11:25) Al: because it depends on who you are. (0:11:28) Al: There used to be a politician in Scotland calls Menzies Campbell, (0:11:30) Al: and nobody would ever call him Menzies Campbell, (0:11:32) Al: despite the fact that it’s spelled the exact same way. (0:11:34) Kelly: That was a fun fact. (0:11:35) Al: But they still call the paper shop Menzies for some reason. (0:11:38) Al: So Ming is fun fact. (0:11:40) Al: There you go. That’s your Scott’s language history on the Cottagecore podcast, (0:11:46) Al: The Harvest Season. (0:11:48) Kelly: I’m just really good at derailing the podcast, what can I say. (0:11:52) Al: Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with that. (0:11:55) Kelly: What have you been up to, Al, besides history lessons? (0:11:56) Al: What have I been up to? (0:12:00) Al: I have been playing, well kind of playing, Harvest Moon, Home Sweet Home, and Coraline 1.1. (0:12:10) Al: I quite often, if I’m like trying to play a game for a podcast and I’ve not quite got (0:12:14) Al: into it yet, I will feel guilty about that and not play any other games. (0:12:22) Al: So I have played about two in-game days of Harvest Moon Home Sweet Home. (0:12:28) Kelly: That’s it! (0:12:28) Al: That’s it. (0:12:29) Al: So we’ll see. (0:12:30) Al: Hopefully I’ll manage to play enough before the podcast that I’m recording in a week. (0:12:36) Kelly: It’s crunch time! (0:12:38) Al: - It’s crunch time. (0:12:40) Al: So we’ll see. (0:12:40) Al: The annoying thing I also found out is that, (0:12:42) Al: so it’s, I don’t know if you’re aware of this game, Kelly, (0:12:45) Al: but it is a mobile game. (0:12:48) Al: So it’s on Android and iOS. (0:12:50) Kelly: the harvest moon one (0:12:51) Al: The new Harvest Moon game, yeah. (0:12:53) Al: And they haven’t enabled cloud safe for it. (0:13:00) Al: So I installed and started playing it on my 13 inch iPad. (0:13:00) Kelly: Oh. (0:13:05) Al: And that is now the only device I can play this game on. (0:13:05) Kelly: Oh. (0:13:09) Kelly: That’s… that’s so… wrong. (0:13:10) Al: I just ate is bizarre, because a special. (0:13:16) Kelly: Especially on like a harv– like, I’m assuming the Harvest Moon game, you know, it has a lot going on. (0:13:21) Al: Yep, you should be here. (0:13:21) Kelly: You’re dedicating a good amount of time to playing it. (0:13:25) Kelly: Yeah, like, you have items, you have things that you’re building up, like, why would– (0:13:30) Kelly: Like, don’t most of these games have that built in by now? (0:13:34) Al: Yeah. Yeah. And it’s not even you don’t even need to do much. You just need to say yes, you can do it. (0:13:44) Kelly: Yeah, and especially with I feel like I’m sure they’re different games, but like just having like knowing that animal (0:13:52) Kelly: crossing (0:13:53) Kelly: Is whatever Pacicapia is like shutting down their app? (0:13:54) Al: Bocky camp (0:13:57) Al: Yeah (0:13:58) Kelly: Wouldn’t you kind of want to make sure that your app is there to like fill the void? (0:14:02) Kelly: - I enjoyed. (0:14:03) Al: Anyway, so that’s that that’s another reason why I’ve not played a lot of it yet is because I can only play it on one (0:14:08) Al: Device and it’s the 13 inch iPad which I like as a device, but it’s not the best for a mobile games, obviously (0:14:15) Kelly: Is it annoying to like, hold for… Is that what the issue is or is it? (0:14:19) Al: That’s part that’s part of the issue although I do have it on a (0:14:22) Al: I stand at my desk, so I (0:14:24) Kelly: Mm. (0:14:24) Al: don’t have to hold it when I’m at my desk, but that means that realistically the only (0:14:27) Al: time I’m playing this game is when I’m working. Which is not a great way to play a game, right? (0:14:29) Kelly: Yeah. (0:14:35) Al: But anyway, whatever. It’s especially annoying because they haven’t disabled playing it on (0:14:39) Al: Macs as well, so now you can play iPad and iPhone stuff on Macs, which is great. It’s (0:14:46) Al: a great feature, but it means that I’ve installed the game on my Mac, but I’d have to start (0:14:52) Al: and you saved to play it there. (0:14:54) Al: Like I was like, this is great because there are like so many ways for me to play this. (0:14:59) Al: I can play it on my iPad during work. (0:15:00) Al: I can play it on my Mac when I’m sitting in front of the TV. (0:15:04) Al: I can play it on my iPad mini when I’m in bed and I’m like, nope, you get one of those. (0:15:09) Kelly: Yeah jokes on you. That’s annoying. (0:15:10) Al: One of those. (0:15:11) Al: Yeah, I should have just gone with the Android version, but the problem is the Android version (0:15:16) Al: crashed when it first came out. (0:15:18) Al: So I couldn’t play it for, in fact, I don’t think it’s, I think it’s still not working (0:15:18) Kelly: So they kind of, they, they dug you into a little corner. (0:15:29) Al: So, I’ve done a little bit of Carlisle in 1.1 as well, because I hadn’t been playing (0:15:34) Al: that yet, so that’s that, and I have gotten very much back into Marvel Snap. (0:15:40) Kelly: Whoa, I haven’t heard that name in a while. (0:15:42) Al: Yeah, so it was, oh they make, they make loads of real decisions, but they’re quite good (0:15:46) Kelly: Did they, like, fix the game? (0:15:47) Kelly: Because I know they were having… they made some kind of weird decisions last winter. (0:15:54) Kelly: Okay. (0:15:54) Al: at fixing these things quickly, like you get multiple changes a week. (0:15:56) Kelly: Okay. (0:15:58) Kelly: Okay. (0:15:59) Al: So, if there’s something that’s completely killing the game, they kill that really quickly. (0:16:04) Al: They’re pretty good at that. (0:16:06) Al: No, we’re at the end of a season, and the next season has like a new type of ability, (0:16:12) Al: which is the first time they’ve done that since launch, so that’s exciting. (0:16:15) Al: And a lot of new Spider People cards, which is also cool. (0:16:21) Al: I do like some Spider People. (0:16:23) Kelly: when did they release marvel snap? was it like around this time last year? (0:16:24) Al: But it’s only a year, I don’t know. (0:16:29) Kelly: right? is it older than that? (0:16:29) Al: It can’t only be a year, really. (0:16:32) Al: No, two years, October 22. (0:16:33) Kelly: okay okay. I didn’t think it was only a year old but I was like I don’t I don’t keep up with that (0:16:39) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:16:40) Kelly: game so there’s also that. there just happened to be a streamer I was watching who was like obsessed (0:16:46) Kelly: with it for a while. (0:16:47) Al: I really love it, because it’s, I like card games, but one, they’re so hard to keep up (0:16:55) Al: with all the cards, right? (0:16:57) Al: And the good thing about Marvel Snap is so many. (0:17:00) Al: There’s many different types of playing are viable. (0:17:02) Kelly: So it’s not like you get one or two meta that are like (0:17:06) Al: Exactly, exactly. (0:17:06) Al: There’s like, you know, Destroy decks are really good just now. (0:17:10) Al: Move decks are pretty good just now. (0:17:12) Al: There’s also like a couple of other types of decks that you can use based on multiple cards. (0:17:18) Al: Like I have played four different decks and won with them over the last two days. (0:17:23) Al: So it’s, yeah, it’s pretty good. (0:17:25) Al: Discard decks are still quite good as well. (0:17:27) Al: Like there’s lots that’s working just now. (0:17:30) Al: And yet there are a few cards that if you don’t get them, you’re unlikely to get up to like (0:17:35) Al: level 100, rank 100. But I’m unlikely to get there anyway. And it’s still fun. Like it takes a long (0:17:41) Al: time to build up the ranks anyway. So, you know, it takes it only now are my rank 60 now. (0:17:49) Al: And, you know, granted it’s only been, I’ve only been playing for two weeks of this season, (0:17:57) Al: which is about half of it, but… (0:18:00) Al: It’s like, I… Yeah, I think it would have been unlikely for me to get to 100 anyway, but… (0:18:06) Al: So yeah, and also the actual matches are simpler than most card games. (0:18:11) Kelly: Okay. (0:18:12) Al: So you’ve only got a few things to think about while still having a lot of different strategies. (0:18:17) Al: And obviously they’re fast. (0:18:20) Al: You know, you can get a match and done in a cut in, you know, the longest matches take five. (0:18:20) Kelly: Yeah, no, it seems like, you know, I I’m not a big Marvel person, but it seems like a fun game with a lot of creativity and like options. (0:18:34) Kelly: And the fact that they’re still actively updating it, I think says a lot. (0:18:34) Al: Yeah. Yeah. It’s obviously making money. Um, so yeah, I mean, basically the reason why (0:18:42) Kelly: Yeah, that too. (0:18:46) Al: I’m back into it is because, um, Hannah, uh, from the ISE slack, um, she walk got, she (0:18:54) Al: came over and was like, Oh, I’m interested in this because I hear that it’s quite similar (0:18:58) Al: to what the new Pokemon trading card app will be like. So I want to see how this works before (0:19:02) Kelly: Oh interesting, smart of Pokemon. (0:19:04) Al: to see how similar it is and compare it to that. And so when she said that, well, yeah, (0:19:12) Al: exactly. It will be interesting to see how much it actually is because we don’t know much details (0:19:16) Al: about how the battles will work. Um, but it will be very clever if, if it is, if it works out well. (0:19:22) Al: Um, but because she came through and did that, I was like, Oh, now I really want to play (0:19:28) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:19:28) Al: and I haven’t stopped playing since. So that was two weeks ago. (0:19:33) Kelly: I… I trust me. I understand. I understand. (0:19:37) Kelly: I’m sure you’ll get out eventually. (0:19:39) Al: Yeah, this is my problem, is I don’t play games casually, I play games until I stop (0:19:40) Kelly: You’ll be free. (0:19:46) Al: playing them, and it is my life until I stop playing them, and then I never think about (0:19:52) Kelly: Yeah, literally, I completely understand. (0:19:55) Kelly: That’s why I’m not allowed to play stuff like Cafe Mix anymore. (0:20:01) Kelly: I like… it was a phone game, you know? (0:20:05) Kelly: But it was a phone game that, uh… (0:20:07) Kelly: Once I started playing events, I got really hooked, (0:20:10) Kelly: and I was good at the events, and I kept winning events, (0:20:12) Kelly: and then I would get money out of it. (0:20:12) Al: Yeah, yeah, my (0:20:14) Kelly: And it was just like, it was like, you know, daily. (0:20:16) Kelly: It was a daily thing where I’d go in, I’d play five games, I’d do this, (0:20:20) Kelly: and then the events. (0:20:22) Kelly: were like, “You have to play all weekend, otherwise you won’t win,” and I’d be like, “Well, I have to win.” (0:20:27) Kelly: Um… (0:20:28) Kelly: So now I’m just not allowed to play that game. (0:20:30) Kelly: But I do that with all games, that’s why I played Day of the Diver until my fingers hurt, you know? (0:20:33) Kelly: That’s, uh… (0:20:34) Al: Yeah, yeah, I just I never got into cafe mix because I just didn’t like the gameplay like it felt too imprecise (0:20:35) Kelly: That’s what I do. (0:20:39) Kelly: Yeah. (0:20:41) Kelly: It’s… it is. (0:20:43) Kelly: It’s very sloppy. (0:20:44) Kelly: Which I think can work in your favor if you know how to use it correctly. (0:20:50) Al: Yeah, probably, but I didn’t want to. I didn’t want to learn. You know, it’s like, I loved like (0:20:52) Kelly: Yeah, no, that’s fair, that’s fair. (0:20:56) Al: shuffle, Pokemon shuffle, which is not, I know it’s not the same game, but it’s, it’s like similar (0:21:01) Kelly: It’s very similar, yeah. (0:21:01) Al: ideas in some ways. But I much preferred that because it was very clear, like, it’s precise, (0:21:07) Al: right? This place goes to that piece and that’s it. Whereas with Cafe May, it’s like, oh, you’re (0:21:11) Al: kind of like circling. And it’s like, I didn’t. (0:21:14) Kelly: Yeah, no, it’s it’s definitely very different in actual gameplay (0:21:20) Al: Cool. So that’s what we’ve been up to and a (0:21:22) Kelly: Yeah (0:21:24) Al: tangent on the Scottish language. (0:21:27) Al: Now we’re going to talk about some news, some game news. (0:21:30) Al: First of all, we have the zero point nine update of Research Story is out now. (0:21:35) Al: So this includes a new NPC, (0:21:39) Al: lots of extra content for the NPCs, a cooking system and your classic on a daily (0:21:47) Al: Cottagecore game, the daily summary, when you (0:21:50) Al: go to sleep, gives you everything that you’ve done in that game. (0:21:50) Kelly: I laugh, but honestly I need things like those. (0:21:55) Al: Well, that’s the thing. And it’s like you have, like, especially in farming games where (0:21:56) Kelly: Like when games don’t have that, sometimes I’m like, “hmm, what was I doing? (0:22:05) Al: you are selling a bunch of stuff on a daily basis, it’s good to know one, how much you (0:22:06) Kelly: Mmhmm. (0:22:09) Al: actually sold, and two, how that break broke down. You know, that was a key point of Stardew (0:22:11) Kelly: Yeah. (0:22:17) Al: is trying to figure out what was the most efficient stuff. (0:22:20) Al: This is really nice in that it’s building up into other things as well, so it’s like, (0:22:26) Al: “Oh, here are the people you talk to, and here’s the XP you gained,” and that sort of stuff. (0:22:32) Kelly: Yeah, no, it definitely does help, and I think also with farming games it’s so easy to get sidetracked on things. (0:22:38) Kelly: So it’s, like, good to see at the end of the day, like, “Oh, I actually did not sell as much stuff that I wanted to,” (0:22:44) Kelly: or “Didn’t talk to the right amount of people,” or, you know, “It’s two days until I have to buy something that’s really expensive, I better start selling a bunch.” (0:22:53) Al: They have also released their roadmap to 1.0, so they’re getting close. They have two more updates (0:22:59) Al: before the 1.0. That is 0.10 should be coming out at the end of September. That is player (0:23:06) Al: customization. 0.11 should be coming out at the end of the year, and that is orange hearts and (0:23:14) Al: shimmers. The orange heart events that will be for NPCs. And I don’t know what shimmers means. (0:23:20) Al: Oh, shiny creatures right in front of me. (0:23:23) Al: I always got to translate into Pokemon. (0:23:27) Kelly: Translate, yeah. (0:23:31) Al: And then the 1.0 will be coming out in Q1 next year. (0:23:36) Al: So if you’ve been looking for 1.0 to finally get into this game, (0:23:40) Al: it’ll be next year, be warned. (0:23:41) Kelly: Have you played the, um, is there an Early Access? (0:23:45) Al: Yeah, that’s what this is. (0:23:46) Al: I haven’t played it. (0:23:47) Al: I know that Cody has played it, and I think Bev played it as well. (0:23:50) Al: and they had a chat about it on one of the episodes. (0:23:53) Al: And they both really liked it. So, I don’t know. (0:23:55) Kelly: It looks cute. I like the note about married life events because I feel like a lot of these games kind of end events once you marry your characters of choice. So that’s nice. (0:24:02) Al: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, not looking at anyone in particular, Coral Island. (0:24:11) Al: Uh, Spirity have also got an update out now. The moving and grooving update, um, was animations. (0:24:20) Al: Hahaha. Hmm. Yeah, did you play it? (0:24:22) Kelly: This game is so upsetting to me because I really wanted to like it so bad. (0:24:27) Kelly: So like, seeing this update, it’s like, these look so funny, and like, they look so silly but it’s like, I’m not gonna go back to play like this. (0:24:34) Al: This is the problem is like you can like everything about a game, but if you don’t actually enjoy the core loop of the game (0:24:40) Al: It doesn’t really matter (0:24:40) Kelly: Mm-hmm (0:24:42) Kelly: Yeah, and I gave it I think I put like 30 hours in or something so I like I gave it a good (0:24:45) Al: Oh, wow, that’s more than I put in I may be I may be put in ten hours (0:24:48) Kelly: Try (0:24:51) Kelly: I wanted to like it so bad, but what can you do? (0:24:53) Al: Yeah (0:24:54) Al: Yeah, I wonder how much of it is just like a personal preference thing, right? Like some people just don’t like certain times of games (0:25:00) Kelly: Yeah (0:25:02) Kelly: I (0:25:03) Kelly: Mean, I don’t know cuz I love games like this. Typically. I wish I could I play this like back in (0:25:10) Kelly: fall so I can’t remember exactly what it was, but I know some things were just like (0:25:15) Kelly: kind of really repetitive in like a (0:25:19) Al: I think that the repetitive bit is probably my problem, is that the bathhouse you did upgrade, (0:25:27) Al: but it didn’t really feel like you were progressing. Whereas with farming games, (0:25:33) Al: you go from like a two by two square that you’ve made of turnips to thousands of crops over your (0:25:41) Al: farm, and tens of animals giving you millions every season. And it didn’t feel like there was (0:25:49) Al: level of progression to aim for. And that was what I think really lost me about it. (0:25:56) Kelly: Yeah, I agree because I updated like I think as much as I possibly could in the bath house, too (0:26:03) Al: but it’s like oh now I have three baths it’s like oh is there right okay (0:26:06) Kelly: Yeah, there’s actually a second floor yeah, but it doesn’t add that much (0:26:15) Al: yeah anyway but if you’ve if you enjoyed the game there’s more updates to it and you know (0:26:17) Kelly: But yeah (0:26:21) Al: as you say these animations are pretty goofy and fun and add some more (0:26:24) Kelly: Yeah, they look so silly and cute, you know. (0:26:26) Al: they add some more character to the npc’s next we have a new update for (0:26:33) Al: Laudelnot coming out on the 19th of September and oh boy do I hate the names (0:26:38) Al: that they give these updates this one is the Goddles update what’s a Goddle you might say (0:26:45) Al: that’s a good question this includes a new secret cave biome that houses three mysterious Goddles (0:26:52) Al: was this cavern forgotten by guppy what ancient abilities do these Goddles have (0:26:59) Al: I’m still not quite sure what I got all this is it the little (0:27:03) Al: like tree looking thing in this image, maybe. (0:27:06) Kelly: I don’t know. I think it’s cute that it’s like, oh, plant these to prevent pollination, uh, pollution, but you know, still it’s like, yeah, to your point, like, what is this made-up word? (0:27:20) Al: Yeah, I think this might be one of those updates that if you have played the game, which I (0:27:26) Al: haven’t yet, that you might be more interested in it. Yeah, I want to play this game at some (0:27:34) Kelly: It looks cute. I like whatever this aesthetic is called. I can’t think right now. (0:27:42) Al: Yes, I can’t remember either. They’ve all got fancy names. (0:27:44) Kelly: Yeah, but I like this game design. I think that (0:27:48) Kelly: style of animation is very cute and very fun for a little underwater game. Yeah. (0:27:51) Al: It works, it works, yeah it works well especially when all your creatures are axolotls, which (0:27:58) Kelly: Yes. (0:28:00) Al: the goofier an axolotl is, the cuter it is. (0:28:04) Kelly: That is true. That is, it is unbeatably cute looking. (0:28:10) Al: Next we have a new DLC for Outlanders, this is the Wandering Stars DLC, and I mean if (0:28:18) Al: you’ve played Outlanders you can look at it, I don’t really think we need to go into the (0:28:21) Al: details of this. (0:28:24) Al: Outlanders is a city builder game, so I’ll probably not play it, because every time I (0:28:29) Al: try and enjoy a city builder I just get frustrated with them, it’s not my kind of game. (0:28:34) Kelly: I get too into city builder kind of games and then it’s also really not enjoyable for me and like actually just stressful, so yeah. (0:28:42) Al: I think part of my problem, so I used to love City Builders, I was obsessed with SimCity2 (0:28:49) Al: so much, but I think part of the problem is that they never work well with controllers. (0:28:58) Al: They’re just not fun to play unless you have a mouse and keyboard, and that’s not how I (0:29:03) Al: game anymore in my life. (0:29:04) Kelly: It’s so funny because I’ve (0:29:04) Al: I am past the point. (0:29:07) Kelly: I’ve flipped from like being a controller only person to (0:29:13) Kelly: playing a lot of games mouse and keyboard now with like an occasional controller and (0:29:18) Kelly: It’s true a lot of these games are so different when you have the option to mouse and keyboard them (0:29:24) Kelly: Like there’s some games where it just makes such a big difference (0:29:26) Al: Yeah. Yeah. I just like, the way that I game nowadays is sitting on my sofa, watching TV (0:29:33) Al: with Rona, because that’s the time we get together and that’s how we like to spend our (0:29:34) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:29:38) Al: time together. So I’m not going to go, Oh, sorry, Rona. I’m going to go into the office (0:29:41) Al: and play games on my computer. Like, I’m just not going to do that. So, um, but I used to (0:29:47) Al: like when I was a student or whatever, I would, you know, be up till two, three. (0:29:56) Kelly: It’s tough (0:29:57) Al: Yeah. Finally, we have an update on what was called Runefactory Project Dragon and is now (0:29:59) Kelly: The sacrifices (0:30:10) Al: called Runefactory Guardians of Azuma. (0:30:14) Kelly: that’s a kind of oh wait so i’m sorry to cut you off but was it called rune factory project dragon (0:30:21) Al: Yes. So I don’t know if that was ever meant to be the title, because when you see project you (0:30:21) Kelly: and they changed that’s interesting (0:30:28) Al: quite often think that’s not the final title. So I suspect it was like we haven’t thought up a name, (0:30:30) Kelly: Yeah. (0:30:32) Kelly: Yeah. (0:30:35) Al: it’s about dragons, call it project dragon. But anyway, now they’ve got given an actual name, (0:30:43) Al: and they’ve said it’s coming out spring next year, and we have a trailer. So the interesting, (0:30:50) Al: Have you ever have you played (0:30:51) Al: any Renfactory games? (0:30:52) Kelly: No. I never got onto that bandwagon. I don’t know how I missed it. I think I was (0:30:53) Al: Okay, so (0:30:58) Kelly: just too dedicated to The Sims at that point in my life. (0:31:02) Al: fair enough. I mean, we’ve all been through our Sims phase. Again, interestingly, spent (0:31:09) Al: a lot of time playing Sims and Sims 2 specifically, and then not really since then. Probably for (0:31:14) Kelly: That’s fair. (0:31:15) Al: the same reason that they don’t really work very well with controllers. (0:31:17) Kelly: Oh no, they’re awful. Those games are the games that made me realize that not all games can be played the same way. (0:31:24) Al: Yeah, yeah. Like, I think it’s good that they add support for it because some people (0:31:29) Al: will have no other option and they would rather go through the pain and do it anyway. But (0:31:36) Al: anyway, so the interesting thing about this game is it says that it is a boldly reimagined (0:31:44) Al: gameplay. And the interesting thing is I watch this trailer and I’m not sure what the (0:31:49) Al: boldly reimagined gameplay is because previous Rune Factories are at a (0:31:54) Al: level. It’s basically Harvest Moon, but also combat. And this is Harvest Moon, but also combat. (0:32:04) Al: So, you know, you still have all the exact same farming stuff and then you go off and you fight (0:32:13) Al: creatures. Now granted, it does seem to be that some of the combat is dance-based rather than (0:32:21) Al: with a sword, but I… (0:32:22) Kelly: Interesting. So it’s like a rhythm? (0:32:24) Al: I don’t think it is rhythm-based, so this is the thing. I think it is just you press a button (0:32:31) Al: and you do a dance move, which isn’t fundamentally different than you press a button and you hit (0:32:37) Al: something with a sword. So… I don’t know. I don’t know the specifics of that. Well, this is the thing, (0:32:38) Kelly: So it’s still tur- like, it’s still… (0:32:43) Kelly: Are you gonna, like, start breakdancing at enemies? (0:32:47) Al: because the dancing… this is the weird bit. The dancing just seems to give you weapons that you (0:32:51) Al: you hit the enemies with. (0:32:54) Kelly: Are you dancing to the gods to, like, ask for a weapon? (0:32:54) Al: I just, Kelly, I have no idea. (0:33:00) Al: They’ve not shown any real gameplay. (0:33:03) Al: I guess my point is, I don’t know what the new part of this is. (0:33:07) Al: It just looks to me like the next Rune Factory. (0:33:10) Al: And there are some changes to it, and it’s a different story. (0:33:13) Al: And that’s all great, and people will love that. (0:33:15) Al: But like, why are you pretending that it’s something fundamentally different when it’s clearly not? (0:33:21) Kelly: Have there there’s been like a quite a few ruin factories, right? (0:33:24) Al: We’ve had five so far. (0:33:25) Kelly: And maybe they’re just lying to forget it I don’t know (0:33:31) Al: I mean, one person’s boldly reimagined is another one’s iterative change, right? (0:33:36) Kelly: Yeah, this seems like a pretty far reach though based on what you’ve said (0:33:42) Al: It does. (0:33:43) Al: This just, it feels like Rune Factory 5, but with some advances, which is fine. (0:33:48) Kelly: Maybe they’re… maybe they’re hiding it. (0:33:49) Al: I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, but why would you do that? (0:33:50) Kelly: Maybe they’re hiding the… (0:33:54) Al: It even says, “Restore your lost memories.” (0:33:56) Al: You still have Amnesia, like in every single Rune Factory game. (0:33:59) Kelly: Oh it’s one of those games, okay I see. (0:34:05) Al: This game. (0:34:06) Al: I don’t know if I can, I don’t know if I can go through playing another Rune Factory game. (0:34:06) Kelly: I don’t know. (0:34:10) Kelly: Have you played all of them? (0:34:11) Al: No, I have not. (0:34:12) Al: I have played just four and five, but I feel like that’s enough for me. (0:34:20) Al: I’m not a fan of the combat in these games. (0:34:23) Kelly: Okay, is it turn-based or is it like? (0:34:24) Al: No, it’s action based. (0:34:27) Al: Like real-time, whatever you want to call it, real-time combat. (0:34:31) Al: It’s just, I never feel like it’s responsive enough for me to feel like it’s enjoyable. (0:34:34) Kelly: Okay. (0:34:38) Al: It feels more like hack and slash rather than something like, I don’t know, Breath of the Wild, (0:34:45) Al: where you can have like precise combat with dodging and what’s the other one where you (0:34:52) Al: hit at the right parry, that’s the right one. (0:34:54) Al: So, I don’t know. I say that I don’t want to play it, but I’ll probably play it. We’ll (0:35:00) Al: see. We now have a trailer for it, so if you’re interested, go watch it. We’ve not heard anything (0:35:08) Al: else about Rune Factory 6, which fun fact Kelly, they announced at the exact same time (0:35:12) Al: they announced this game. No, this isn’t 6. This is… Yeah, but this is the thing. It’s (0:35:13) Kelly: Oh, this isn’t six. This is a side project. (0:35:20) Al: It’s not though. (0:35:21) Al: It’s not. (0:35:22) Al: It’s just the next. (0:35:24) Al: It will be interesting to see how long our Silkkox song is, and we can (0:35:26) Kelly: So, when does six come out? (0:35:30) Kelly: That’s… that’s… (0:35:35) Kelly: But this one seems to be coming out pretty quick. (0:35:40) Kelly: That’s… that’s not too bad when your other ones take five years. (0:35:46) Kelly: Yeah, that’s my… that’s my gauge for everything. (0:35:55) Al: to this is half a Silkkox song or whatever. (0:35:58) Kelly: » Well, I think the psychos have run out of other games, or (0:36:02) Kelly: they’re starting to run out of other games to compare it to. (0:36:06) Al: Yeah, I think GTA6 is the only other one that feels like that has been longer. (0:36:08) Kelly: Yeah, [LAUGH] yeah, and that’s just a meme in itself. (0:36:12) Al: Yeah. Yeah. Yes, GTA6 is not coming out next year, no matter how much they say it is, it’s (0:36:13) Kelly: So the two meme games, we’re just [BLANK_AUDIO] (0:36:21) Al: not coming out next year. It is a, like, because I don’t know if they actually announced that (0:36:26) Al: it was coming out in 2025 or something, but be- (0:36:29) Kelly: No, ‘cause there was that whole meme just going around of like, “We got this before (0:36:34) Kelly: GTA VI.” (0:36:35) Kelly: Oh, so end of next year. (0:36:35) Al: Yeah, so the announcement it was going to come out in Q4 2025, which late 20… Yeah, (0:36:42) Kelly: That’s never gonna happen. (0:36:43) Al: that means it’s coming out 2026. It was hilarious because they announced it in December last (0:36:44) Kelly: Yeah. (0:36:50) Al: year. So it was like, “Oh, they’re going to announce the new game. Great.” And then it (0:36:53) Al: came out and it was like, “Oh, wow, that’s exciting.” And then at the end it was like, (0:36:56) Al: late 2025. You’re like, “Really? You’re announcing it two years before you’re currently planning (0:37:02) Al: on it coming out. (0:37:04) Kelly: It’s just I went into a little bit of a spiral recently because of GTA 6 and that whole timeline (0:37:11) Kelly: because I was like, wow, it has been, I lived at my parents house when GTA 5 came out. (0:37:12) Al: Yeah. It’s, it’s basically my entire career. So I, so (0:37:19) Kelly: I was in college. (0:37:24) Kelly: Literally I was so excited because the weekend it dropped, my parents were away and I set (0:37:29) Kelly: up the big screen TV in the living room, and moved like the comfy (0:37:32) Al: Yeah. (0:37:32) Al: Thank you so much for watching. (0:37:34) Kelly: you know armchair to the center of the living room and sat there, and played GTA 5 on the big screen TV and (0:37:34) Al: If you enjoyed this video, please like and subscribe. (0:37:36) Al: If you want to see more videos like this, please like and subscribe. (0:37:42) Kelly: That’s how long it’s been (0:37:44) Al: It’s funny, so it came out on the 17th of September 2013, I got my first job outside (0:37:48) Kelly: No literally like so literally this is (0:37:53) Al: of uni on the 8th of August 2013. So just over a month before GTA 5 came out, I started (0:38:01) Al: my career. Since then, I’ve changed job like five times. I have had two children, I have (0:38:07) Al: bought two different houses, not at the same time, I’m not a crazy person. (0:38:14) Al: I was technically married before that, but only by two months. So like my entire career. (0:38:21) Al: I remember explicitly that it came out around that time because my first job, their office (0:38:28) Al: was right next to the Rockstar offices in Edinburgh. And so they had this massive, four-storey (0:38:30) Kelly: Uh, okay. (0:38:35) Al: poster on the office building that I walked past every single day for like a month before (0:38:42) Kelly: it’s it’s crazy it’s it’s it’s so funny like it’s yeah like you said like my whole life (0:38:50) Kelly: like I was still in college still living at my parents still working you know some like college (0:38:56) Kelly: level job (0:38:58) Al: I have a nine-year-old who was born a year and a half after it came out. (0:39:04) Kelly: you know I gotta say they really um milked gta live for all it’s worth (0:39:11) Kelly: because the fact that that kept (0:39:11) Al: - Yeah, they really did. (0:39:12) Kelly: that game so relevant is absolutely insane. (0:39:16) Al: Yeah, I mean, I’m never, I’m not really a GTA person, (0:39:21) Al: so I never played GTA Live. (0:39:22) Kelly: Well, I was. I was, you know, for literally most of my childhood (0:39:28) Kelly: and then they didn’t release a new game for half my life. (0:39:34) Kelly: Like, that’s crazy. One of my first- I used to rent (0:39:37) Kelly: GTA Miami Vice and GTA 3 from Blockbuster. (0:39:42) Al: I think it’s a very good example of how modern games have become too big. So from 1997, when (0:39:53) Al: the first GTA came out, there were 16 years between that and GTA 5. 16 years. It depends (0:40:00) Kelly: And what did they put out like 12 games? (0:40:03) Al: which one you’re counting, which ones you’re counting, because there’s like… so if you’re (0:40:05) Kelly: I’m counting the mini like the the side like the PSP games and stuff like that too. Yeah (0:40:12) Kelly: I could hear I could hear the little tapping (0:40:12) Al: going to be 15. 15 games. So an average of one a year. And since GTA 5… or let’s just (0:40:16) Kelly: Okay, so I wasn’t too far off (0:40:21) Al: shoot… so between GTA 5 and GTA 6 releasing, and this is just GTA games by the way, it’s (0:40:26) Al: not all Rockstar games. I’m just talking GTA stuff. So between GTA 5 and GTA 6 releasing, (0:40:31) Al: there will be at least 12 years. So 12 years between… and in that time, what have they (0:40:33) Kelly: That’s absurd. (0:40:38) Al: they had GTA Live and well, ignoring (0:40:38) Kelly: Red Dead Redemption? (0:40:42) Al: the other so GTA stuff specifically GTA Live or online or whatever you call it and their remastered (0:40:42) Kelly: Yeah, yeah. (0:40:48) Al: trilogy. No, exactly. And I was counting for the record like I wasn’t I wasn’t even counting like (0:40:49) Kelly: Oh, right, okay. Which, that doesn’t count. (0:40:56) Al: they had a double pack and a trilogy re-release. I wasn’t counting those before so literally and (0:41:04) Al: GTA online came out at the same time as 5 came in 2013 was like two weeks after 5. So (0:41:08) Kelly: Yeah, yeah. (0:41:12) Al: yeah Rockstar have done other games of course since then but it just… (0:41:16) Kelly: But they literally had such a, like they are who they are because of GTA. (0:41:22) Al: yeah, uh-huh. Also well also also also Lemmings but yeah. (0:41:24) Kelly: Like again, that was my childhood. I could tell you the craziest cheats for those games. (0:41:30) Al: We can’t forget Lemmings come on. (0:41:32) Kelly: What is, is that a Rockstar game? (0:41:35) Al: Did you never? So okay right this is where we get into the history of Rockstar North. (0:41:40) Al: Not Rockstar, Rockstar North. (0:41:41) Kelly: Is that the Scotland office? (0:41:42) Al: So, well, let me get to that. Let me get to that. So, GTA was originally developed (0:41:50) Al: by a company called DMA Design. This was a company based in Dundee, in Scotland, which (0:41:52) Kelly: Mm-hm. (0:42:00) Al: it’s actually the heart of games design in Scotland. The university there, people come (0:42:07) Al: from all over the world to study games design. It’s like well known for that. (0:42:13) Al: DMA Design, after GTA 3, were bought by Rockstar and renamed Rockstar North. But before that, (0:42:23) Al: they also released many games. GTA is the one that obviously most people know of, (0:42:29) Al: but they also released Lemmings, which was a big game. Did you never play Lemmings? (0:42:37) Al: So, this was a game, the game play for this was you have… (0:42:42) Al: Obviously, this is based on the false idea of Lemmings walking off cliffs, (0:42:46) Al: which is obviously nonsense, but it was a fun game. (0:42:50) Al: So, you know about the creatures Lemmings, right? (0:42:52) Kelly: Yes, yes. (0:42:53) Al: And you know about the Disney’s terrible thing where they pretended that Lemmings (0:42:58) Al: walked off cliffs, but actually they just basically pushed them off a cliff for a documentary. (0:43:02) Kelly: Yes, I do know about that. (0:43:03) Al: Yeah, OK, cool. (0:43:06) Al: So, DMA Design made a game called Lemmings that was based off this idea. (0:43:10) Al: Um, you have a lot of little (0:43:12) Al: lemmings and you have to guide them through a 2D world, get them from the start to the end using (0:43:20) Al: different things like you can, you know, you can tell a lemming to mine through this thing, (0:43:24) Al: you can tell one to build a stair, you can, you know, loads of things. It was a really fun game. (0:43:28) Kelly: They’re so cute looking, honestly. Like, I’m looking at it now, it looks adorable. (0:43:30) Al: Yeah. So I don’t think they made a single lemmings game after they became Rockstar North, (0:43:36) Al: which I’m very sad about, but it’d be amazing. They basically- (0:43:39) Kelly: Ugh, could you imagine? (0:43:42) Al: became the GTA place, even though they did so many other games before that. (0:43:47) Kelly: Yeah, that’s crazy. I never would have guessed that, to be honest. (0:43:50) Kelly: But yeah, GTA. What is life? (0:43:53) Al: Yes, there we go. So many tangents in this episode. (0:43:56) Kelly: Derailment 2. (0:43:57) Kelly: - What? (laughs) (0:43:59) Al: Um, but hey, I mean, GTA 6 probably come out before Elder Scrolls 6. (0:44:04) Kelly: I’ll probably get it before a silk song, you know, that’s (0:44:07) Al: Well, I don’t know… I don’t know… (0:44:10) Al: Bye. (0:44:10) Kelly: Al I have to say these things to jinx it so (0:44:12) Al: Yeah, okay, sorry, sorry. Right, I think we’re done with our tangents for now, (0:44:18) Kelly: Yes (0:44:19) Al: and that’s definitely the news finished. I think the news was finished 20 minutes ago. (0:44:25) Kelly: We had to have another history lesson, okay (0:44:25) Al: So now, yeah, yeah, we’ve got two Scottish history license, one about the language, (0:44:31) Al: and one about the only games company that has actually been successful. (0:44:38) Kelly: You have to say we’re consistently on theme, at least, somehow. (0:44:42) Al: I’m just getting you ready. I’m getting you ready for coming. You can have a look at the (0:44:47) Al: Rockstar North offices in Edinburgh when you’re there. I don’t know where their current offices (0:44:52) Al: are because I think they moved since I worked in Edinburgh. Anyway, we’re going to talk (0:44:57) Al: about Dave the Diver. Specifically, we’re going to talk about the story aspect of it, (0:45:02) Al: but there are two things we need to discuss beforehand. First of all, they have, for some (0:45:09) Al: reason I know it’s new DLCs since the last day of the day. (0:45:12) Al: So we need to talk about them. (0:45:14) Al: So the first one is Bilateral. (0:45:17) Al: This is the card game, the like ridiculous rogue-lite card game where you have to like (0:45:24) Al: build up a hand and make, like you’ve probably seen people with trying to break it by having (0:45:31) Al: numbers so large that the game crashes and stuff like that. (0:45:38) Al: I don’t think we know for certain what’s happening here, but it looks like they’re (0:45:41) Al: putting (0:45:42) Al: the game as a minigame inside, but I also noticed on the Nintendo Direct this week that (0:45:42) Kelly: It’s like a minigame, right? (0:45:50) Al: also Dave the Diver themed decks are going in bilateral as well. (0:45:56) Kelly: that’s cute I think that’s a nice like I feel like Dave does such a good job of (0:46:02) Kelly: these cute little like you know they’re they remind me like back in the day when (0:46:07) Kelly: you do like follow for follow or like photo like my photo and I’ll

"This was the greatest moment in Dance Moms history as far as I was concerned." exclaims Christi since Abby is away "with her mother" and Gia is left in charge on "Gone, Abby Gone". There isn't even a Pyramid this week, how could this not be the best week ever? Cause Abby still found a way to make it awful! But most of that wasn't shown on camera, so prepare for a lot of 4th wall breaking to find out what really went down that Fourth of July weekend in 2013.Kelly is contractually forced to bring her kids back to the studio. The show frames this situation as Kelly sneaking-in her kids while Abby is away, just to get Brooke that solo she 100% wants. This immensely upsets Leslie, who is convinced Kelly has it out for Payton and fears they will be kicked to the curb if Kelly returns. A feud begins to quickly fuel between the two moms, though Kelly doesn't have anything against Payton in reality, so it's rather one sided. Kelly takes the bold step to call Abby and request a solo for Brooke, to which Abby informs Gia that if Brooke is given a solo she'll be fired. Gia downplays the situation and gives Brooke a solo to practice, knowing what may come of it. To add insult to injury it's far and away the worst choreography Brooke has ever been given. When Abby calls in to give the Hylands a piece of her mind, she crosses a line with Brooke that suspiciously didn't make it to air.Christi also takes the crown for "Worst Dance Moms Outfit". So tune-in to hear Christi relive the horror of it all!Quotes“Paris Hilton's book... and she refers to us in there! Oh yeah, about how ugly our clothes are. It's not Dance Moms level ugly? Ok Paris fuck off! Shut up! I mean maybe...” (8:39-8:51 | Christi & Kelly)“Every time you show up Payton gets kicked back off the team. But that's not my fault. That's a TV show, there's only so many spots!” (26:23-26:29 | Christi & Kelly)“So you're in your white minivan with your bar of clothes in the back and they came up. Walk me through it. Were they like you need to ask for a solo? Absolutely. None of us wanted a solo. None of us wanted to even be back." (30:16-30:27 | Christi & Kelly)“Let's take a poll. Do you think it's hoodlum if you say the F-word or do you think you're a hoodlum if you break a beer bottle on someone's face?" (42:08-42:16 | Christi)LinksSubscribe to us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC50aSBAYXH_9yU2YkKyXZ0w Subscribe to our Patreon: www.patreon.com/backtothebarreThank you to Ashley Jana for allowing us to use Electricity!! Follow her on IG HERE: https://instagram.com/ashleyjanamusic?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=Download Electricity HERE: https://music.apple.com/us/album/electricity/1497482509?i=1497482510Follow Christi on IG: www.instagram.com/christilukasiakFollow Kelly on IG: www.instagram.com/kellylhyland Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Quotes“Well I don't think you look sick. I think you look like a bitch. Why thank you. Thank you. I am Bitch #2!” (15:04-15:09 | Christi & Kelly)“I'm telling you like as somebody who was there you saw 1/100th of the fight. That fight was scary. (...) I really thought it was going to be physical. Like truly scary like physical.” (20:58-21:24 | Christi)“If I had a drink I would drink for contradiction. I don't have a drink! Ugh, well I'm not drinking that protein shot. Haven't opened it yet. Sorry, I'm ignoring all headbands because I do not want to drink that shit." (26:47-27:03 | Christi & Kelly)“So upstairs you and Holly comment on the group and how difficult it is trying to figure out what Abby is trying to portray. Yeah because it was stupid." (47:12-47:22 | Christi & Kelly)LinksSubscribe to us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC50aSBAYXH_9yU2YkKyXZ0w Subscribe to our Patreon: www.patreon.com/backtothebarreThank you to Ashley Jana for allowing us to use Electricity!! Follow her on IG HERE: https://instagram.com/ashleyjanamusic?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=Download Electricity HERE: https://music.apple.com/us/album/electricity/1497482509?i=1497482510Follow Christi on IG: www.instagram.com/christilukasiakFollow Kelly on IG: www.instagram.com/kellylhyland Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

About Kelly Lichtenberger: Kelly Lichtenberger has a strong background in sales and marketing, with experience in various leadership roles. From 2021 onwards, she has worked as the Global Head of Sales Development at Avanan. Before this, she worked at The InsideOut Technologies Company as a Principal, focusing on building and optimizing Inside Sales teams. From 2017 to 2019, Kelly held multiple roles at Razberi Technologies, including Vice President of Marketing and Inside Sales. She was key in delivering network video recording, cyber security, and remote health management solutions during her time there. Before that, Kelly was the President of Consulting Services Group (CSG), where they provided superior customer experience and implemented top talent and technologies for business success. Kelly was also involved in building high-performance sales teams and instituting best-selling processes at Carousel Industries as the Vice President of Inside Sales. Overall, Kelly Lichtenberger has a wealth of experience in sales development, marketing, and team management and has consistently demonstrated success in driving revenue growth and achieving results. Check out the latest episode of our Conversational Selling podcast to learn more about Kelly.In this episode, Nancy and Kelly discuss the following:Value of the human element in sales despite advancements in AI Overcoming fear of rejection in cold calling Differing views on the use of scripts in sales calls Building and maintaining successful inside sales teams Role of emotional intelligence (EQ) in prospecting and sales Benefits of emotional intelligence for women in sales Key Takeaways: You can have a script, but knowing how to play within that keeps the human element there. Women do phenomenally at sales. The worst answer in sales is "maybe." We all have a mutual benefit for everybody, being happy and wanting to stay."I still very much believe in the human element. We hear a lot about AI and tools, what these tools can do, and what this system can do. We miss a big part of the sales cycle when we leave out the human element. I talk to my team often about this, and I think what happens is it comes down to skill set. There are a lot of people who don't have the skill set to use the phone as a selling device appropriately. So, it's easier to say it doesn't work and it's dead. The more people say that, the more it helps me and my teams because it opens the doors. Fewer people are calling, so I'll get through." – KELLY"So, when you think about emotional intelligence, it's the same as EQ. People have heard of IQ, which is knowing how. EQ is knowing you. Emotional intelligence encompasses self-awareness, self-regulation, motivation, empathy, and social skills. It's really about adding the human element into sales. When working with a team, I tell them, "We're not going in to sell on step one of the first conversation. We're looking at how to build a relationship, even in your personal life. It's about being you." One of the things that people forget to do often is to focus so much on the product know-how and forget that there's an actual person on the other end. Do we understand their role? Their pain points? What would be helpful to them in their position? If you're facing rejections, know how to handle it, pivot, and not get upset if you have a day where there are many hang-ups or didn't get through and set up the demo. Knowing that motivation, if you're not doing those things again, how do you turn something like cold calling into a skill set and not just give up because it's not working for you? Many people do. Then again, they want to say, "This didn't work." Well, maybe it's that you didn't work on that one." - KELLY"So, active listening is a big part of emotional intelligence, which comes in a few places. It's going to come into social skills. It will come into self-awareness, but really, the social skills of understanding. Knowing when to let somebody speak and actively listening to have it be heard allows you to respond appropriately. When we call someone, I must remind them that they may not always love our product or think that everyone on the planet needs it, but not everybody does, or maybe they don't see it. So, how do we have conversations to open up what they need? And if we fit, great. If we don't, then at least know how to build that relationship because, down the road, there might be something new added into your line of products that they could need." – KELLYConnect with Kelly Lichtenberger:LinkedIn:www.linkedin.com/in/kellylichtenbergerAvanan: www.avanan.comTry Our Proven, 3-Step System, Guaranteeing Accountability and Transparency that Drives RESULTS by clicking on this link: https://oneofakindsales.com/call-center-in-a-box/  Connect with Nancy Calabrese: Twitter:https://twitter.com/oneofakindsalesFacebook:https://www.facebook.com/One-Of-A-Kind-Sales-304978633264832/Website:https://oneofakindsales.comPhone: 908-879-2911 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ncalabrese/Email: leads@oneofakindsales.com 

Al and Kelly talk about what they think could still be added to Stardew Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:02:27: What Have We Been Up To 00:07:40: News 00:22:53: Stardew 1.6 00:56:47: What Is Still Missing In Stardew 01:21:22: Outro Links Echoes of the Plum Grove Release Date Bunny Haven Mika and the Witch’s Mountain Dev Update Potion Permit Update Len’s Island Roadmap Chill Roadmap Stardew 1.6.3 Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Al: Hello farmers and welcome to another episode of the harvest season. (0:00:34) Al: My name is Al and we are here today to talk about Cottagecore Games. (0:00:36) Kelly: and I’m Kelly. (0:00:41) Al: Ah welcome back Kelly, it’s been a while. (0:00:46) Al: What was your last episode? (0:00:47) Kelly: Um, was it the pumpkin heart? (0:00:47) Al: It was. (0:00:49) Al: Oh no pumpkin panic! (0:00:52) Kelly: Yeah. (0:00:53) Al: No! (0:00:54) Al: Oh I talked to, was it Bev I talked about that? (0:00:56) Kelly: Ahhh. (laughs) (0:01:00) Al: There was a couple of weeks ago and they had not listened to that episode and eventually went and watched like one of the speedruns and I was like just be warned and they were like yeah it’s terrifying. (0:01:08) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:01:13) Kelly: Yeah, that is absolutely the least cottagecore game that I think we’ve discussed. (0:01:15) Al: Yeah. (0:01:18) Al: Oh yeah don’t yeah. (0:01:21) Kelly: And listen, I have some anxiety attacks playing Stardew in the mines, but that’s nothing. (0:01:30) Al: We’ll talk about it later but I’m in the volcano just now on Ginger Island so I’m having fun there. (0:01:31) Kelly: Yes. (0:01:39) Al: Cottagecore and not Cottagecore there is an overlap there anyway. (0:01:43) Al: So yeah welcome back it’s been six months good to have you back. (0:01:48) Kelly: It’s good to be back, I’m always happy to come back. (0:01:50) Al: We are going to talk more about Stardew 1.6 because we are going to eke out all the content we can from this update I guess that’s the fun of me and Johnny covering. (0:02:01) Al: It’s going to be less than a week after it comes out is there’s always going to be stuff that we miss and so fun to come back and chat especially with with with you Kelly who obviously you weren’t on the last episode so you’ve got probably different thoughts probably some similar thoughts but anyway before we get into that transcripts are available in the show notes and on the website the there’s a bunch of news to talk about but first of All Kelly, what have you been? (0:02:30) Kelly: Besides playing Stardew, you know, I had five days off last week, and I spent three of them playing Stardew until four in the morning. (0:02:42) Kelly: So that was really rough to go back to work the next week. So now I’ve been trying to roll it in at about one o’clock in the morning. (0:02:48) Kelly: But, you know, that never works, because it’s always just one more day. (0:02:52) Kelly: So it’s like 1.30 I’ve been going to bed playing Stardew. So, you know, it’s been going. (0:03:00) Al: I mean is the original solitaire not a roguelike? (0:03:02) Kelly: But besides that, I’ve been playing Solitaire Battle. It’s like a roguelike RPG solitaire game where you battle other things. (0:03:18) Kelly: We had this discussion in Slack. I said it as a joke, but it 100% is. (0:03:23) Al: It is! (0:03:24) Al: There’s nothing like it’s just it’s a single run and then once it’s done nothing matters and you can start again. (0:03:28) Kelly: Yep, you got what you got in that run and then you don’t get that same thing ever again (0:03:34) Kelly: and you know what, it made me realize, maybe that’s just the games that I like (0:03:40) Al: Yeah. Each to their own. So what makes this different? Is it an RPG? Did you say an RPG? (0:03:40) Kelly: to my core (0:03:54) Kelly: Sort of so like you get you you you go against a different like character each round and you (0:04:03) Kelly: Obviously want to try to get more matches and more cards in them, but you also (0:04:07) Kelly: Have power-up cards, so you have like a tack move (0:04:10) Kelly: You have like some Stat boosters and stuff like that you can get like extra draws (0:04:16) Kelly: so you’re kind of just like looking to kill their health bar before your health bar goes down and (0:04:21) Al: Oh, interesting. (0:04:24) Kelly: Three three levels with three levels in each it’s it’s a unique little take on (0:04:29) Kelly: Solidary Dallin and introduce me to it (0:04:32) Al: is there a story? No. Okay. Well, let’s not get into the discussion of what an RPG is. (0:04:34) Kelly: No (0:04:36) Kelly: So maybe not RPG maybe I’m just saying letters and words (0:04:41) Kelly: No (0:04:44) Al: People complain about me talking about that all the time. Okay. Do you gain cards for winning and stuff like that? Is that how you get the power up? Okay. And then you buy the power-ups with the money. (0:04:46) Kelly: My hands are up I am done (0:04:55) Kelly: Uh, no, you actually gain money. (0:04:58) Kelly: So, like, yeah, yeah, you buy the cards. (0:05:00) Kelly: So it’s like, oh, you linked seven different cards at once, you get more money. (0:05:06) Al: sounds like a rogue light to me rather than a rogue like every time every time I talk about this I think I know the difference and then I say something and someone’s like oh maybe not (0:05:09) Kelly: I don’t know the difference. (0:05:18) Kelly: Yeah, I’ve given up. I’ve decided it’s funnier this way. (0:05:23) Al: see I’m I’m my current understanding is that a rogue like is where everything resets between runs and the only thing that improves is your skill and a rogue (0:05:36) Al: light is where you gain things between runs to improve the runs in other ways (0:05:42) Kelly: So I think it would be more of the first but you do gain characters (0:05:48) Kelly: to play as (0:05:49) Al: Yeah, but you’re also gaining money, right? Which gives you paradox and stuff like that so that (0:05:52) Kelly: Oh, yeah But so it’s like that’s one run and then I’d go back and like, you know do a different run So I guess it would be the second one because you’re keeping the cards through the nine levels that you’re playing I don’t know man. I don’t know (0:06:04) Al: Who cares? Whatever. I wouldn’t like it either way. There’s still only one that I’ve actually enjoyed as a whole game, so. Oh, what have I been up to? I mean, Stardew, like, is there is that enough? I mean, basically, I’m now at 60 hours played of Stardew 1.6. (0:06:07) Kelly: Who cares whatever (0:06:10) Kelly: Yeah, no you wouldn’t like it. I just think it’s fun (0:06:12) Kelly: I need to make fun of this conversation every time it gets brought up. (0:06:28) Kelly: Oh, nice. (0:06:35) Al: And we are currently recording on Thursday, so it’s quite an early episode for nearly a week before it’ll come out, but yeah, so it’s a week and two days since it came out, (0:06:49) Al: almost exactly. So, 60 hours. (0:06:54) Kelly: Too bad, I’ve put 30 hours in, (0:06:55) Kelly: but I did not start playing until Saturday night. (0:06:58) Al: Ah, yeah. Yeah, I was ready for it. The whole of Tuesday I was like, “Right, it’s going to be late. It’s going to be late today because I know that Concerned Ape is in Pacific time, (0:07:09) Al: but I’m going to keep paying attention anyway.” And then it came out at like 9pm my time and I was like, “Ugh, great.” Yeah, well, exactly. Exactly. So I am tired. I don’t think I’ve be doing anything else, sadly not games wise. (0:07:18) Kelly: Dangerous time to start. (0:07:29) Al: I keep trying to start Princess Peach show time, but I’ve got stuff to do in Stardew. (0:07:35) Kelly: It’s hard starting with such a commitment. (0:07:38) Al: Yeah, but we’ll talk more about that soon. (0:07:40) Al: Let’s talk about some news. (0:07:42) Al: First off, we have Echoes of the Plum Grove have announced that they are releasing on the 29th of April this year. (0:07:48) Al: Kelly, I suspect you haven’t heard of that yet. (0:07:52) Kelly: I have not, um, I like the title. (0:07:56) Al: So, I mean, the summary of this is it is a life sim where you can kill people. (0:08:04) Kelly: Oh. (0:08:08) Kelly: It’s such a cute artwork, I did not suspect that. (0:08:12) Al: Yes, yes. It’s very Paper Mario-esque. I’m trying to find the wording because it’s quite a… I can’t find the wording, but I’m pretty sure this is the one where you can kill people. (0:08:14) Kelly: Yeah. (0:08:23) Kelly: I like that. I think that’s a nice way to stand out. (0:08:25) Al: Yes, I’m all for different things. You also have to survive winter. I think you can die because of the season. I don’t know if I like that or not, but I’m certainly willing to try it. I mean, I’ve backed it on Kickstarter. (0:08:33) Kelly: Oh, I like that too (0:08:44) Kelly: Yeah, I mean, also I’m saying I like that, but I’m sure also if I played it and put like 40 hours into the game and then I died, I’d be pissed. (0:08:50) Al: So I believe that if I, okay, so you you have children and then you grow old and I believe… (0:09:00) Kelly: Oh, I think I have heard of this. (0:09:04) Al: I’m not sure I need to double check but I’m not sure if it says for certain but I think you can then continue as your child when you die. We’ll find out because it comes out soon, (0:09:13) Al: comes out in one month. Was this on Switch or was it just on Steam? Not that it matters anyway because even if it comes out on Steam, it will… (0:09:21) Al: Even if it comes out on Switch, it will come out on Steam first, (0:09:23) Al: so I’ll probably just play it on my Steam deck. (0:09:26) Al: I’m not seeing Switch. (0:09:27) Al: Anyway, so yeah. (0:09:28) Al: Next we have Bunny Haven. (0:09:30) Al: Bunny Haven is out now. (0:09:33) Al: I don’t think there’s much to say about this game. (0:09:35) Al: There’s bunnies. (0:09:36) Al: Adopt rescue bunnies, (0:09:38) Al: care for them, and transform your garden into the haven in this cozy cafe sim. (0:09:42) Kelly: Okay, cute (0:09:43) Al: Yeah, out now. (0:09:45) Al: Will you play this? (0:09:47) Kelly: Maybe I’m I’m like is that a phone game or is it like a yeah, I’m like weird about phone games I’ll like the idea of something but in the long run. I just go back to playing dungeon cards (0:09:58) Al: Oh, what is dungeon cards? (0:09:59) Kelly: so (0:10:02) Kelly: It’s a roguelite card game (0:10:06) Kelly: So yeah, it’s just like a silly little card game (0:10:14) Al: Mika and the witch’s mountain. (0:10:18) Al: This is your witch delivering packages. (0:10:24) Kelly: okay what is this like the poly art style is that what that is (0:10:29) Al: Oh, yeah, there’s a I know what you’re trying to I know what you’re trying to say, but it’s not that, and I can’t remember. (0:10:39) Al: Shaded, is it shaded? (0:10:42) Kelly: Oh, Cell… (0:10:43) Al: Cell shaded, yes, that’s it. (0:10:44) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think a lot of games can be really fun in the start style. (0:10:49) Al: I agree, I think this works really well. (0:10:52) Al: They have not announced their release date, but they have released that they’re planning to release they have announced. (0:10:59) Al: They’re planning to release before summer. (0:11:02) Kelly: Okay (0:11:03) Al: I don’t know if this is a translation thing because the team is Italian. (0:11:05) Al: So they’re, you know, there’s a, there’s an aspect of that, that they’re not kind of native English speakers, but that feels like before summer. (0:11:15) Al: I mean, I always have issues of using seasons, right? (0:11:17) Al: Because as we have discussed many, many times, there is no one universal definition of the seasons. (0:11:25) Al: Not everywhere has four seasons, some places have two, some places have three, some places have five, and even the places that do have four, they don’t all have them the same. (0:11:35) Al: So it always annoys me when the people do this, but like what is I don’t know whether they actually mean before summer or whether they mean before the end of summer, so it could either be like any time between now and what June, or it could be any time between now and September. There we go. (0:11:52) Kelly: Yeah, it could be anything. (0:11:56) Kelly: I think they intentionally did that just to be vague for their own benefit. (0:11:59) Al: Yeah, yeah, we are putting all the team’s efforts to have Mika and the Witches Mountain out before summer this year. Yes, we will see. I want to play that game, although not right now, (0:12:08) Kelly: I mean, it’s better than nothing. (0:12:14) Al: I’m playing Stardew, so you know maybe they can wait. (0:12:15) Kelly: The tarot cards look cool. (0:12:17) Kelly: I like the art for them. (0:12:19) Al: I haven’t actually seen that. Is that in this update? (0:12:20) Kelly: They’re collectibles. (0:12:24) Kelly: Uh, I’m on the page you sent me, but I don’t think it’s from this update. (0:12:28) Al: Oh yes, no, it is the update, yeah, yeah, well I know I do, that’s my thing. (0:12:30) Kelly: Oh, okay. (0:12:31) Kelly: Who doesn’t love collecting things? (0:12:38) Al: Potion Pyramid, did you play Potion Pyramid? (0:12:40) Kelly: Yeah, I did a podcast with Bev and Maddie. (0:12:43) Al: You did one on it, yeah. (0:12:45) Al: So there’s an update out now with new romanceable characters, I wasn’t even aware they had romance in that, I don’t remember you discussing that on the podcast, were you aware they had romance in this game? (0:12:49) Kelly: Mm. (0:12:57) Kelly: We were, um, I think it was kind of (0:12:58) Al: Hehe. Surprise, surprise. (0:13:00) Kelly: lackluster compared to some other (0:13:03) Kelly: romance-able games, so that’s probably why you don’t remember us talking about it. (0:13:08) Al: Yeah, probably, probably. They’ve also added some extra languages and a cinematic opening (0:13:17) Al: animation to the game. Is this in? Is it still in early access? Was it in early access? I can’t. (0:13:24) Al: It is not in early access. (0:13:26) Kelly: I was gonna say, I think he was out. (0:13:27) Kelly: They definitely seem to have been fixing a lot of bugs, (0:13:31) Kelly: ‘cause there definitely were a lot of bugs, (0:13:33) Kelly: I know, when we talked about it. (0:13:35) Al: Yeah, I feel like adding an opening animation, it doesn’t feel like an after 1.0 thing to do. (0:13:44) Kelly: No, also kind of feels weird when there’s like other things that I probably would have (0:13:50) Kelly: Spent the time on fixing (0:13:51) Al: Yeah, I will say that it won’t be the same people doing those two things, (0:13:55) Kelly: Mmm, yeah (0:13:55) Al: right? Like the developers would have gone, oh great, here’s the animation, right? That’s it in, (0:13:59) Al: right? There’s not much work for them to do after this is made. (0:14:02) Kelly: Yeah, but that’s still budget money, right, you know? (0:14:06) Al: » Sure, that doesn’t mean that if they hadn’t done it, (0:14:09) Al: they would have spent money on fixing. (0:14:10) Kelly: That’s true, that’s that’s very true. (0:14:12) Al: You can’t just throw more developers at a team and get quicker, faster bug fixes. (0:14:19) Al: It’s not how it works. (0:14:20) Kelly: Listen, I played Software Inc., it is how it works. (0:14:25) Al: Please never run a development team. (0:14:29) Kelly: My company was so successful. (0:14:32) Al: There’s a fun– I can’t remember the name of it, (0:14:34) Al: but there’s a fun. (0:14:35) Al: Principle in companies that says that people get promoted until they are no longer doing the job well and then instead of getting demoted back down to where they were doing a good job they continue to be in the job that they weren’t doing well and that’s why it always feels like management are terrible what they’re doing because they are. (0:14:55) Kelly: Mm-hmm. Yes, I’ve heard the same exact thing about managers and (0:14:56) Al: So. (0:15:01) Kelly: It definitely applied to my past manager. Now I have a good manager. So (0:15:06) Al: Ah, well, I’m sure you won’t have them for long because they’ll get promoted into something that they’re not good at. (0:15:14) Kelly: That’s the fingers crossed (0:15:17) Kelly: On a side note, I don’t know if you you’re interested in playing a work game after work, but software ink was fun (0:15:24) Al: Ah, maybe, maybe when I’ve had like a long holiday or something, (0:15:25) Kelly: Mm-hm, yeah, there you go. (0:15:29) Al: we’ll see. Certainly not right now. Maybe when I’m in a new job, maybe when I’ve got a new job. (0:15:34) Kelly: When you’re filled with hope and, you know, a new will to survive. (0:15:39) Al: Lens Island have updated their roadmap again. They now have six updates coming, (0:15:48) Al: no four updates coming over the next three months, which I’m sure will go great. (0:15:54) Al: They have the end of March, which is now. They have the community update. At the end of April, (0:16:01) Al: they have two different updates coming. They both say end of April. That’s very weird. (0:16:08) Al: One of which is the camp. Yeah. Yeah. So realistically, that’s one update, isn’t it? (0:16:08) Kelly: But they’re tied together. (0:16:15) Kelly: Mm-hmm. They wanted to showcase both. (0:16:15) Al: I don’t know why they’re calling it two different updates. That’s fair, but like don’t say it’s four different updates. That’s not how it works. (0:16:24) Al: Oh, that is totally something that someone would do. That’s the camera orbiting update, (0:16:24) Kelly: They’re going to be on two separate dates. (0:16:39) Al: which is such an overly complicated name for. I mean, it’s a very good and impressive feature to implement, right? Like you have a freeform camera in a game that never had a freeform camera before. That’s good. But my word, I do hate. (0:16:54) Al: that name. Freeform camera, yeah. Camera. Like what is the camera orbiting? And camera orbiting implies that it’s like always moving, right? Because like an orbiting thing isn’t moving at will, it is moving at a general constant orbital speed. So I. And as always happens in these games when you’ve got moveable cameras. (0:16:54) Kelly: Is that what you would say though instead free-form camera? Yeah, I think that sounds better than camera orbiting update (0:17:08) Kelly: Yeah (0:17:13) Kelly: You’re just trying to play the game and like hope that you can see the right way while you’re doing (0:17:24) Al: The controls change when you’re moving the camera, so you’re just running around in circle. (0:17:24) Kelly: mhm, mhm (0:17:32) Al: Oh, that sounds terrible. (0:17:34) Kelly: That’d be a fun, like, challenge form. (0:17:38) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:17:41) Al: Anyway, and the other update at the end of April is the completionist update. (0:17:49) Al: New starter guide, collections page, and quest objectives will be added. (0:17:54) Al: Then at the end of May, they have the frozen lands update, (0:17:58) Al: which is a new Arctic world, new weapons, enemies, and animals, new major boss. (0:18:03) Al: Major boss. (0:18:04) Al: Is that not just a boss? (0:18:06) Kelly: They really want to spice things up, Al. Let them be. (0:18:11) Al: a new vehicle and more. And then it looks like the full release has been pushed a little bit because it was originally scheduled for July, but it’s now coming out in Q3. Technically July is in Q3, but in fact they’re now saying Q3 rather than July. I suspect that means September. But thank you for saying Q3 and not saying summer. I appreciate that. Although you do get into the question of like, well, what are we talking? (0:18:30) Kelly: Yeah, I would also think that. (0:18:41) Al: Or are we talking financial calendar? In which case, which financial year? (0:18:47) Al: There is here. Yeah, it’s April to March. Technically, it’s the, I think the fifth of April to the fourth of April the next year. Don’t ask me why, it just is. Yeah, so if you talk about the financial year here that’s what (0:18:49) Kelly: Is there even a standardized fiscal year? (0:19:11) Al: people need. And that will include multiplayer and the I don’t know what they mean by the act 5 major update that sounds like it’s the final bit of the story possibly but I’m not sure. And a new hardcore mode. (0:19:26) Kelly: Are the stories called acts because like also technically this would be the fifth update (0:19:31) Al: It would be the fifth update this year but there have already been lots of updates to this game. (0:19:41) Al: It came out in 2020-2021, so yeah, I don’t know why I started saying 2000, right? (0:19:44) Kelly: I thought you were going to say 2012 for a second. (0:19:49) Al: I’ve not, I’ve not said 2000 and something for years, 2021, I don’t, I think even back in 2012, I was still calling it 20, I think it was back in 2009. (0:20:04) Kelly: That’s fair. I think I switched back and forth until like- (0:20:06) Al: Yeah, I find it funny because, like, I would never say… (0:20:10) Al: You would always say, like, 1901, 1905, 1922, you wouldn’t say 1905, yeah. (0:20:16) Kelly: Because that sounds ridiculous. (0:20:20) Al: But we knew that saying 2000 dand would sound ridiculous at some point as well, so why did we ever start saying, uh, it doesn’t matter, don’t matter, doesn’t matter. (0:20:29) Al: We don’t have time to get distracted by this pointless stuff. (0:20:32) Al: It is quarter to 11. (0:20:34) Al: Milltown have released their roadmap as well. (0:20:36) Al: They just came into Early Access last week, I wanna say. (0:20:42) Al: The day before or the day after Stardew 1.6, so I haven’t played it yet. (0:20:50) Al: So their first update will come out apparently this month, which presumably means like tomorrow. (0:20:58) Al: Because I don’t think they’re gonna be doing it all at the weekend. (0:21:02) Al: So it should be out by the time you’re listening to this episode. (0:21:04) Al: And that will have some bug fixes. (0:21:06) Al: Performance fixes etc etc and full controller support. (0:21:11) Al: Look, if you’re gonna release controller support like less than two weeks after your early access, (0:21:16) Al: just wait the two weeks. (0:21:23) Al: Boy oh boy. (0:21:24) Al: And then they’ve listed the other updates that are coming out, (0:21:27) Al: or some of the other updates that are coming out with no dates on them, (0:21:30) Al: which is probably a sensible thing to do. (0:21:32) Al: do. (0:21:32) Kelly: Yeah, I feel like that doesn’t set the expectations badly seems like some pretty good updates along the lot like down (0:21:37) Al: Yeah, I do need to play this game, it is on my list. (0:21:44) Al: I do own it, cuz of course I backed on Kickstarter. (0:21:51) Kelly: Some people are hoarders, some people, you know, (0:21:53) Kelly: back everything on Kickstarter. (0:21:55) Al: I feel like we’re about to come into a really busy period for games coming out, I just have that feeling. It was three days, it was three days after Stardew 1.6 came out that it came out. (0:22:00) Kelly: Yeah, I trust- (0:22:05) Al: In fact, in that case, it was last Friday that this game first came out, less than a week. (0:22:13) Al: And the final piece of information, which will be a lovely segue into our main topic, (0:22:18) Al: is that Stardew 1.6.3 is now out, which includes the most important update, Kelly. (0:22:24) Al: you can access clinche (0:22:25) Al: shop while your tool is being upgraded. (0:22:28) Al: That was three updates ago, come on get with it! (0:22:28) Kelly: I thought you were gonna say, “You could drink mayonnaise.” (0:22:37) Kelly: No, uh, when I saw the Clint update, I was so ecstatic. (0:22:41) Al: the Clint update. (0:22:43) Kelly: I hate him. I never want to see him. (0:22:46) Kelly: But this is the best update that could have been applied to him besides he turns into nothingness and you can become your own, uh, blacksmith. (0:22:54) Al: Well, let me tell you so I have so listeners will have heard this is when I segwaying into this is the this is The main main point of the episode now. We’re just gonna talk some more about stardew (0:23:05) Al: Kelly’s gonna talk about some of their feelings on the 1.6 update and (0:23:11) Al: I will probably talk about some of the 1.5 stuff that I’ve now accessed in the last few days because I haven’t stopped playing and (0:23:19) Al: then we might talk about some things that we think are still missing from the game. (0:23:24) Al: With the massive caveat that we obviously don’t expect anything else, (0:23:28) Al: and if this game never gets another update that will be completely acceptable, (0:23:34) Al: we’ve had six massive updates for this game. (0:23:35) Kelly: We love you, Concerned Dave. We don’t expect anything from you. Please just be nice. (0:23:42) Kelly: You’re so nice. (0:23:42) Al: Um, but yeah, Clint, I have an update. So people will know that I was, uh, I’m romancing Emily in this game. Um, and yeah, well, exactly. So, um, Johnny said that I’m running the full evil run in this version. Cause obviously I’m doing Junimo Kelly. You were the first person to find that out. Literally two hours before we recorded the last podcast, I got A message from Kelly going. (0:23:50) Kelly: Oh no, so arch rival Clint. (0:24:04) Kelly: It was the first person to shame you on it too. (0:24:13) Al: What have you done? (0:24:15) Al: As I had just finished completing the Georgia Community Center equivalent. (0:24:23) Al: I don’t even know what it’s called. (0:24:26) Kelly: I don’t either, but I open Steam and what do I see? (0:24:30) Kelly: But Al has completed the Jojo, Jojo Mart, whatever thing. (0:24:36) Kelly: I don’t think I know anybody who’s done that. (0:24:38) Al: Well, now you do. (0:24:41) Al: Let me see what it was actually called. (0:24:42) Kelly: This is the genocide run of Stardew. (0:24:46) Al: genocide. Wow. (0:24:50) Kelly: It’s an Undertale reference. (0:24:52) Al: All right, I did not. (0:24:54) Al: I played Undertale. (0:24:58) Al: I didn’t enjoy it. (0:25:01) Al: We don’t need to talk about that. (0:25:04) Al: So the actual the actual achievement is Georgia Co-member of the year. (0:25:08) Al: Look, it’s my rarest achievement, 4.3% of players of this achievement. (0:25:14) Kelly: There you go. Well, I saw that on Steam, and how could I not publicly shame Al for this? I mean… (0:25:26) Kelly: Oh, I will say, so I– to the listeners, I’ve only played Stardew on the Switch before this, (0:25:33) Kelly: and it is so nice to have the achievements. (0:25:36) Al: Yeah. You do get them in the Switch version, but they’re only in-game. It’s really nice to be able to go and see them. I don’t know why Nintendo insists on not doing achievements. (0:25:40) Kelly: Yeah, it’s not the same. (0:25:48) Kelly: It makes me so mad! (0:25:49) Al: It feels like something they could do with… It’s not like it’s no work, but the majority of the work is on the developers’ sides. They need to build an API that allows people to put in some information, and then they need a UI that shows you it. That’s really all you need to do. (0:26:07) Al: I’m not saying it’s very, very easy, (0:26:09) Al: but I am saying it’s not the hardest thing they’ve ever done. (0:26:09) Kelly: It’s such a small thing that’s like completely unnecessary, but it just feels so nice. (0:26:12) Al: And I think it would make playing the switch much more fun. (0:26:22) Al: Yeah I’m wrong actually it’s not it’s not my rarest achievement anymore. I got the unforgettable soup today. Yeah only 0.7% what did you put in to get that? Oh wow yeah love me an easy soup I put in I put in a gold truffle yeah I oh nice wow impressive that’s pretty good (0:26:22) Kelly: I will say. (0:26:28) Kelly: I got that a few days ago. (0:26:40) Kelly: Oh, fancy. I’m early in the game still. This was my first spring, or summer, or whatever. (0:26:52) Al: no I put it I put in the gold truffle purely because I accidentally walked into the beach and went oh no it’s soup time do I have anything in my bag I had one food item and it was a gold truffle look because I had the gold truffle it was fine right I was I was like this is a perfect thing for a soup this will be great (0:27:04) Kelly: Oh, you are so lucky. (0:27:06) Kelly: You are, I would have savescombed. (0:27:08) Kelly: I would have absolutely just shut the game down and restarted the day. (0:27:14) Kelly: Yeah, no, yeah. (0:27:16) Kelly: Yeah, you got luck, you lucked out. (0:27:18) Kelly: That’s awesome. (0:27:19) Kelly: No, I would have absolutely just shut the game down and like close my eyes for a second and then restarted everything. (0:27:26) Al: Oh dear, it was funny because I was going over, I was actually planning to go to Ginger Island. (0:27:31) Kelly: Oh, man. (0:27:32) Al: So I was going to the beach to go to the boat, and then I was like, (0:27:36) Al: “Oh, guess I’m not going to Ginger Island today.” (0:27:36) Kelly: Good thing you didn’t just, like, use a totem or whatever. (0:27:43) Kelly: Can you use a totem for Ginger Island? (0:27:44) Al: You can, but I had never, this was my first time going to Ginger Island, so I didn’t, (0:27:44) Kelly: I can’t… (0:27:45) Kelly: You can, right? (0:27:46) Kelly: Oh! (0:27:47) Kelly: Also, “Plans Interrupted” by the Lueo. (0:27:50) Al: I didn’t, I didn’t have any to- (0:27:52) Al: Oh, sorry, I interrupted you. (0:27:57) Kelly: That’s pretty lucky. (0:27:59) Kelly: I don’t know what I was saying. (0:28:01) Al: “Achievements”. (0:28:02) Kelly: Oh, I was going to say that was my best achievement. (0:28:06) Al: Oh, so I interrupted, I interrupted you, telling me about an unforgettable soup, (0:28:07) Kelly: That’s what I was about to say. (0:28:10) Kelly: I was going to brag about the fact that, yeah, I was going to say I have you beat. (0:28:13) Al: by telling you about my unforgettable soup. (0:28:19) Al: Apparently, so I’ve also, the Ginger Island one, which… (0:28:22) Al: just get to Ginger Island, only has 1.2% of players. (0:28:24) Kelly: Well that’s even with the soup one, I’m not doing great in the summer, I’m doing well, (0:28:26) Al: Yeah, that is really, that’s so much smaller than I was expecting. (0:28:29) Al: The soup one as well. You just need a gold and anything. (0:28:38) Kelly: you know, like I’m having a good run through, but I’m not doing anything crazy and yeah I started with the new meadow thing so I have chickens and eggs, that’s like a step up. (0:28:48) Al: - Yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:28:50) Kelly: Which is great, I love them. (0:28:51) Al: Yeah, so you did the new farm then. (0:28:52) Kelly: Yes. (0:28:54) Al: So tell me what you think about that then just in general. (0:28:55) Kelly: I think it’s really cute. I think it is kind of you kind of give yourself a little boost by getting the chickens for sure, because it doesn’t take long for you to get like a mayo maker and then that’s like, even without the mayo maker, you’re still like dedicated getting a few hundred dollars a day at the beginning, which is like such a big thing. Yes, it is. (0:28:57) Al: ‘Cause me and Johnny had to chat about that as well, (0:28:59) Al: ‘cause we both went for that, absolutely. (0:29:04) Kelly: It’s kind of you kind of give yourself a little boost by getting the chickens for sure, because it doesn’t take long for you to get like a mayo maker and then that’s like, even without the mayo maker, you’re still like dedicated getting a few hundred dollars a day at the beginning, which is like such a big thing. Yes. (0:29:20) Al: Yeah, which is huge to start with. (0:29:26) Kelly: I’m not selling my foraged goods and then trying to save some so I have something to eat. (0:29:30) Al: Yeah, selling wood and stone. (0:29:32) Kelly: Yeah, exactly. (0:29:36) Kelly: Like, yes, of course, I am a fisherman through and through when it comes to stardew, so that is always my go-to for money. (0:29:43) Al: interesting. Let me tell you, I am not a fishing person so much so that I am at level ten for everything in in this save except fishing of which I am far. (0:29:58) Kelly: Oh wow, no, I got like Iridium Fish by day 10 of spring. (0:30:05) Kelly: And I was like, oh, is this gonna be harder on like computer? (0:30:08) Kelly: Because like, you know, I’m using the mouse instead. (0:30:11) Kelly: But no, I think it might even be easier. (0:30:14) Kelly: I love fishing, I think it’s so much fun. (0:30:16) Kelly: But you make so much money. (0:30:16) Al: I dislike it less once I’ve gone up the levels, right, (0:30:23) Al: because it becomes easier as you go up. (0:30:24) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, it definitely does. (0:30:26) Al: And you do get a lot of money early game, (0:30:29) Al: but then by the time I actually have bothered to try it, (0:30:32) Al: I’m already making lots. (0:30:34) Al: Like I’m now trying to push up the levels because I’m like, I wanna get to level 10 on fishing by the end of year two. (0:30:34) Kelly: Yeah (0:30:40) Kelly: Yeah, yeah cuz otherwise you can’t get the legendaries right (0:30:40) Al: I’m currently midway through summer year two. (0:30:46) Al: You get them the next year. (0:30:48) Al: But no, I want to get it for the granddad’s evaluation. (0:30:53) Al: Although I think I just hit my last thing that I needed to do for my granddad’s evaluation. (0:30:54) Kelly: Well, yeah, that’s part of it too. (0:31:01) Al: But that last point that I needed to get was having your pet at full happiness. (0:31:09) Al: And the problem with that one is I don’t need to keep him at full happiness, (0:31:13) Al: which isn’t hard normally, (0:31:15) Al: but I’m trying to do a lot of stuff in general. (0:31:16) Al: look, Emily’s at home, I’ve already married Emily, she can be looking… yeah. I don’t (0:31:20) Kelly: Yeah, and then not come home. (0:31:36) Kelly: Because you committed animal neglect? (0:31:42) Kelly: You’re married already?! (0:31:46) Al: know how much I’ve played this game in the last week, Kelly. (0:31:49) Kelly: No, I just I truly don’t care about marrying people and so I think that’s always the last thing that I focus on (0:31:55) Al: I oh yes so that’s what I was going to talk about so my yes I was going to talk about Clint because I was talking about Clint. So last episode I had mentioned that I was romancing Emily and I had previously romanced Hailey. Hailey was my my first instard you and let me but we’re not in the same save file. So come on I’m not that and not that terrible although that would be interesting. (0:32:00) Kelly: Yeah, so we got so sidetracked, oh my god (0:32:14) Kelly: The sisters? (0:32:18) Kelly: Oh, okay. (0:32:25) Al: No, I I I romanced Hailey in my first Stardew game and the reason why I did that is I suspect the same reason everybody does Hailey is she’s mean to you when you first talk to her and you’re like “oh well I’m gonna have to I’m gonna have to change that”. Feels like a challenge. (0:32:38) Kelly: Umm, yeah, that’s what I did with Alex, cause he’s just mean to you. (0:32:49) Al: Yeah, yeah same thing. (0:32:50) Kelly: Yeah, I mean it makes sense cause there are each other’s, you know, counterparts or whatever. (0:32:55) Al: Yeah, yeah exactly, exactly. So that was my first one and then my second one I did (0:32:59) Kelly: Okay. Mm-hmm. (0:33:00) Al: Leah just as something a bit different. I thought she was quite a different character so I thought I’d go for her and then this one I don’t know why I decided with Emily. I just I just did and then the whole Clint stuff and I was like well this sounds fun and then so when I recorded the last episode, I was just kind of in the middle of romancing Emily. (0:33:23) Al: and… (0:33:25) Al: Johnny had mentioned how that was obviously because I was doing that and the Georgia stuff I was doing the full evil run (0:33:31) Al: Um, and I was like, ah, you know clint’s a wimp. Um, he doesn’t even try (0:33:34) Kelly: No, wait, wait, wait, what do you mean, what do you mean the evil run, you are, this is negating the horrors of your Jojo Mart because you are saving Emily from Clint. (0:33:44) Al: Well, because it’s… I don’t think she needs saved from Clint, I’ll be honest with you. (0:33:52) Kelly: No, but I mean, I hate him, so… (0:33:55) Al: Yeah, well, exactly. This was my point, is that I didn’t think it was that bad, because I think that Clint is just pathetic, and he doesn’t even bother trying, he just kind of mopes around. And then, so, I am now married to her, so I have officially broken his heart, (0:34:04) Kelly: Mmhmm. (0:34:08) Kelly: Yeah. (0:34:15) Al: but the best bit was it was amazing. There’s one of the heart, I think it’s… I’m assuming it’s a heart event for Emily. You turn up at Mayor Lewis’s house, and Emily is doing some clothes related, try out some new clothes thing with a bunch of people. And so, you do this and like a bunch of different people. (0:34:38) Kelly: Oh, I think I know what you’re talking about, yeah. (0:34:44) Al: It’s just you and Emily left and you have a moment with Emily and it’s all lovely. (0:34:57) Al: And then Clint walks back in and he sees you both and he’s like, “Oh, I guess I interrupted something.” (0:35:04) Al: And just before he leaves, he says, “Well, you win,” and walks away. (0:35:08) Kelly: Oh god, but see that’s why he’s such a sad sack little loser no he’s just like he’s the mopey kid in the corner (0:35:10) Al: And you’re just like, “Wow! (0:35:14) Al: Way to do it.” (0:35:16) Al: Like, “Oh, my word! (0:35:17) Al: So pathetic!” (0:35:18) Al: I’m just like, “You didn’t even try! (0:35:26) Al: What are you doing?” (0:35:28) Al: And he’s like, “Oh, can you give this thing to Emily?” (0:35:32) Al: It’s like, “Give it to yourself! (0:35:33) Al: You want me to give Emily a rock? (0:35:36) Al: You’re the rock guy! (0:35:37) Al: That’s your thing!” (0:35:38) Al: This is the thing, he is literally - all of Emily’s favourite things, except Cloth and and will are rocks. (0:35:44) Al: Basically, right? She likes all the things you get that he gives you. (0:35:45) Kelly: Mhmm. (0:35:49) Kelly: Mhmm. (0:35:50) Al: You just- he- he could eat- (0:35:53) Kelly: No, I fully support this because he is… (0:35:57) Kelly: He’s the little loser kid in the corner who thinks that for some reason, he is getting ignored. (0:36:05) Kelly: But he’s not doing anything. All he has to do is take a step forward. (0:36:06) Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah, give her a rock. (0:36:09) Kelly: Just be normal. Go talk to her like a person. (0:36:14) Kelly: Like, it’s so simple. (0:36:15) Al: Weird isn’t necessarily bad though, that’s the thing, you just need to actually try. (0:36:15) Kelly: Just… just talk to her like you talked to me, Clint, but maybe not ‘cause you’re still weird. (0:36:23) Kelly: No, I don’t mean weird in that way. I mean, he’s… I don’t like his mentality. (0:36:27) Al: I agree. (0:36:30) Al: He feels like he is the victim despite never even trying in it. (0:36:32) Kelly: He’s the victim. (0:36:36) Kelly: Yeah. (0:36:36) Al: Agreed. (0:36:37) Kelly: He’s the victim who put himself in a hole. (0:36:40) Kelly: Yeah, well… (0:36:42) Al: So, yeah, I have defeated him and broken his heart and now I’m married to Emily and all is good with the work. (0:36:49) Kelly: Yeah, that’s good. (0:36:51) Kelly: I’m happy for you. (0:36:52) Al: Anyway, sorry, I interrupted you. So, yeah, the new farm, you have enjoyed having chickens and getting mayo. (0:37:00) Al: I love also, I don’t know what you think about this, but I love how you can drink mayo now, not because I’ve ever done it, (0:37:06) Al: just because like in terms of the game, it’s a really good energy source really early on for this farm. (0:37:12) Kelly: Oh, I actually did not try it. (0:37:15) Kelly: Um, but I do know that it upsets the people around you if you do drink it around people. (0:37:20) Al: Yes. I mean, most of the time you’re not eating in front of people, right? Like, most of the time you’re downing something as you’re halfway down the mine. Let’s not pretend like, you know, (0:37:26) Kelly: Yeah, yeah. (0:37:29) Al: the people who are finding out that people don’t like seeing you drink mayo, they’re doing it just to see what happens. You’re not– Yeah, sure, but you– Sure, but you don’t go into Mayor Lewis’s house to drink some mayo, right? Like, that’s just not a thing you do. (0:37:35) Kelly: I mean, listen, sometimes I get caught opening trash cans when people are around. (0:37:39) Kelly: Sometimes I don’t think about stuff. (0:37:43) Kelly: No. (0:37:44) Kelly: No. (0:37:47) Kelly: Um, but no, I thought that was a funny little update. (0:37:50) Kelly: Just like a silly little thing. (0:37:52) Kelly: Who doesn’t love silly little things? (0:37:54) Al: how is your farm so far then you’ve you’re at your at the end of summer is that (0:37:58) Kelly: Um, I am, I think, day 18 of summer? (0:38:04) Al: the 18th of summer year one (0:38:06) Kelly: Yeah, so, good so far, I do need to get more into the mines because I need a sprinkler, (0:38:14) Kelly: so I need, I miss them. (0:38:16) Kelly: It’s just like, I want to grow everything, but then I don’t want to have to water everything, (0:38:19) Kelly: and yeah, it’s really nice to have your watering can updated, but it’s still not enough. (0:38:23) Kelly: And it takes so much time and so much energy, but it’s going good so far, I moved everything, (0:38:29) Kelly: I like the setup of the farm so far, I think I have a good idea of where I want to put my barn and stuff. (0:38:35) Kelly: Um, but I did move all of my crops down to the, is everybody’s farm different, and it’s just like similar concepts, or are they, the same, right? (0:38:41) Al: No, it’s the same layout, yeah. (0:38:44) Kelly: So I moved it down to, by that lake at the bottom left. (0:38:48) Al: OK, I’m still using the top, the stuff just underneath your farm because I have the greenhouse. (0:38:52) Kelly: That’s what I was using at first, I got fed up with the, the watering can. (0:38:57) Al: Yeah, fair. (0:38:59) Al: Yeah, that is one big disadvantage is that you are quite far away from water up there, but everything’s sprinkled for me now. (0:39:04) Kelly: Yeah. (0:39:07) Kelly: Yeah, see, once I get to that stage, (0:39:08) Kelly: it’s like, okay, I can pick and choose how I wanna do it. (0:39:11) Kelly: Although last time I used that area for fish, (0:39:17) Kelly: whatchamacallit, (0:39:20) Al: Oh, fish buns. (0:39:20) Kelly: yes, the roe, the roe pons. (0:39:21) Al: Right, I was like, you just have fish lying on the ground? (0:39:27) Kelly: So I used that area in my last different farm for that. (0:39:33) Kelly: But I like missing room with the layout. (0:39:34) Kelly: I like literally draw them out in notebooks and like figure everything out. (0:39:37) Al: Yeah, I don’t. (0:39:38) Kelly: Yeah, no, I mean I write out (0:39:41) Kelly: the information on like how much each fruit costs, how long it takes to grow, (0:39:46) Al: I see I’m definitely, I’m just at the point now where I’m just like well I’m just growing. (0:39:47) Kelly: how much it costs to pickle. (0:39:53) Kelly: Yeah, now you’re having fun. Yeah. (0:39:54) Al: Ancient fruit, ancient fruit in my greenhouse and whatever one specific crop is the best one to do outside, which is summer just now so it’s star fruit. (0:39:57) Kelly: Yeah, exactly. (0:40:01) Kelly: Yeah. (0:40:04) Kelly: Yeah, but no, I like the aspect of making my little lists. (0:40:10) Kelly: I like making lists. (0:40:14) Kelly: I got green rain the other day. (0:40:16) Al: The green rain is great. I got that for the second time today. (0:40:18) Kelly: I’ve never had it, my God, it was so cool. (0:40:22) Kelly: Cuz it’s only in summer, right? (0:40:24) Al: It is. I’m pretty sure it’s the seventh of summer it happens on, because I’m sure that was the same both years for me, but it might. (0:40:30) Kelly: Oh, see, I heard it could be different. I heard it’s rare and it doesn’t- (0:40:34) Al: Well, I’ve had it both summers, so I don’t think it’s that rare. (0:40:39) Kelly: okay but oh my god what a cool little event it made the insides of the houses so dark and eerie (0:40:43) Al: Yeah. (0:40:46) Al: I really like it. I especially the second time around, I noticed that it also makes all your trees suddenly grow to full height, which is cool. (0:40:49) Kelly: I got so much moss (0:40:55) Kelly: yes because I got a lot of my trees back in my yard um (0:40:59) Al: Yeah. Which was especially good for me because I was growing the hardwood trees at that point, (0:41:04) Al: and so I suddenly had 10 hardwood trees, and I was like, “Yes! All the hardwood! Fantastic!” (0:41:05) Kelly: oh that’s nice. That is so nice. (0:41:10) Kelly: I really liked that they had those fiddlehead fern trees in the forest area, down below your house, because I don’t have access to secret woods yet. (0:41:16) Al: - Yeah. (0:41:21) Al: - Yes. (0:41:27) Al: - Yeah, I think that’s also what I mentioned in the last episode. (0:41:30) Al: That’s another really good thing about this farm is it has both hardwood logs on it. (0:41:34) Kelly: Mm-hmm (0:41:36) Al: And the big hardwood log, you have to have a gold ax for, (0:41:40) Kelly: Mm-hmm, which I’m not up to yet (0:41:40) Al: but the, no, but the smaller one, (0:41:43) Al: you just have to have an iron axe for. (0:41:45) Kelly: Yes, which I am very close to (0:41:46) Al: And so you can get hard with much quicker. (0:41:49) Kelly: Yeah, which is so nice cuz there’s so many things that for crafting you need to you need the hardwood (0:41:55) Al: Yeah. Yeah. I think, do you not even need that for, I think, is it cheese maker you need that for? (0:42:00) Kelly: Yeah, because I was gonna go make one and I was like ah hardwood, and I have some hardwood, but I don’t have enough hardwood (0:42:03) Al: Yeah. Frustrating. (0:42:08) Kelly: What else I really like that now when your menu it like (0:42:13) Kelly: Blips the community bundle button (0:42:18) Al: I will say it has done that since 1.4, it’s just it seems to be something that people just keep (0:42:20) Kelly: Has it okay, well (0:42:23) Kelly: You know what? (0:42:27) Al: realizing every time they play it again. It’s like oh this is cool that it’s something a bunch of new people learn because I’ve seen because I’ve seen concerned a tweet about it three different times over the last five years and everyone’s like oh wow that’s a great new feature and is like no no I’m just reminding people because I yeah because I (0:42:32) Kelly: You know what? (0:42:32) Kelly: Maybe it’s just the best feature. (0:42:40) Kelly: Well, I just learned about it. (0:42:48) Al: because I’ll tell you how I know that it was definitely 1.4 is because I didn’t do community center this time. I didn’t play 1.5 but I used that feature quite a lot so there you go. (0:42:59) Kelly: Uh, okay. (0:43:02) Kelly: The sea jellies and the river jellies are very interesting. I don’t know what they’re for yet, but they’re cool-looking. (0:43:06) Al: You can eat them, but also there’s a specific one crafting that I know of that uses it. (0:43:10) Kelly: Yeah. (0:43:15) Kelly: Yeah, I figured there would, I figured there would be something. I’m very much in the… (0:43:19) Al: It’s something you’re going to like, personally. (0:43:21) Kelly: Okay, okay, but I’m, no, I’ll wait. I’m very much in the… (0:43:23) Al: Do you want to know what it is or not? (0:43:25) Al: No. (0:43:26) Al: OK. (0:43:27) Al: I need you to tell me what you think of it when you get it, because I think you’ll like this new item. (0:43:29) Kelly: » Okay, I’m excited. (0:43:34) Kelly: But I’m very much in the mentality of hoard things first and then later I don’t have to deal with it as much. (0:43:38) Al: Oh, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah, like it took me three months to figure out what the Moss was for. Yeah. (0:43:46) Kelly: Yeah, I’m still waiting on that one, I don’t know yet. (0:43:49) Kelly: I got so much moss though from that rain. (0:43:51) Kelly: I was like, my God, we’re going ham. (0:43:53) Kelly: And then I love how after a whole bunch of trees are still covered in moss. (0:43:58) Al: Yes Not just on your farm as well (0:44:00) Kelly: It’s like, this is the residue. (0:44:03) Kelly: Mm-hm, but also great for just fiber in general, (0:44:06) Kelly: because fiber can kind of be hard to come by sometimes. (0:44:10) Al: Yeah, especially if you want to grow tea saplings, (0:44:13) Kelly: Mm-hm, so that was really cool. (0:44:15) Al: which is a good source of early game money. (0:44:16) Kelly: I think overall, I just really liked that event. (0:44:18) Kelly: and I looked at the camera and I thought, “Oh, I’m gonna do it.” (0:44:20) Al: I agree. My first time on it, I didn’t do very much on it because I didn’t have a lot of energy and obviously it runs out early, but I literally got my second one today and I cut down every single tree that I found and I cut up all of the moss on the ground. I think I had like like 200 moss or something by the end of it. (0:44:40) Kelly: Yeah, I think that’s- I think that’s about what I got. I was like, I’m just gonna take food with me and empty my pockets and go. (0:44:46) Al: It’s definitely worth it. Did you talk to anyone during the event? (0:44:49) Kelly: Yeah, I went to the salon, which I was actually kind of pissed about because I wanted… (0:44:51) Al: Oh yeah, saloon, not salon, different things. (0:44:54) Kelly: Whatever. Yeah, I know. (0:44:56) Kelly: Listen, I know what the word is and what I’m gonna call it in my head are two entirely different things. (0:45:01) Al: It’s all right, I call it a pub anyway because saloon is a very American word. (0:45:06) Kelly: Yeah, yeah. (0:45:07) Kelly: Um… (0:45:10) Kelly: But I went there because I was like, “Oh, I’ll buy some more salads so that I have a ton of energy today, and then tomorrow if I want to go in the mines or something, I have a salad or something with me.” (0:45:22) Kelly: And then I went in there and you couldn’t even buy anything because everybody was just in panic mode. (0:45:27) Al: Yeah, yeah, did you find Demetrius? (0:45:30) Kelly: No, I did not because I was like, “You know what? I don’t care. I’m gonna go cut the trees down.” (0:45:34) Al: He’s so funny, he’s up by his house, (0:45:37) Al: dressed up in a hazmat suit. (0:45:40) Kelly: No, I did see a tweet about that, actually. Damn. (0:45:42) Al: He’s so funny. (0:45:42) Kelly: I wish I wanted to see that. I forgot that those were the connected events. (0:45:47) Al: Everybody else goes to the pub. (0:45:49) Al: He’s out in a hazmat suit. (0:45:52) Kelly: He’s an interesting little man, you know? (0:45:54) Al: Yes, yes he is. (0:45:56) Kelly: But no, I was like, “You know what? I gotta find these fiddlehead ferns, so I need to get out of here.” (0:46:02) Kelly: I was like, “Back to cutting down trees. This is too much interaction.” (0:46:08) Kelly: What else there was (0:46:10) Kelly: There was other things and now I can’t think of them (0:46:12) Al: So, this game is a lot about kind of the small quality of life updates, how have you found, (0:46:20) Al: obviously we talked about the new farm, are there other kind of day-to-day things you’ve been doing that you found different in the game? (0:46:31) Kelly: And that’s what I’m trying to think. I feel like there was, and now I cannot think, um… (0:46:36) Al: Feel free to get the patch notes up for on the stardew website. (0:46:40) Kelly: That’s what I’m literally… (0:46:42) Al: I presume you haven’t been to the desert festival? (0:46:44) Kelly: No, no, no, no, not yet, um… (0:46:46) Al: It’s very hard to get that in the in the first year but I’ve just been to it and I I very much enjoyed that. It’s good fun. It ties together a bunch of different things in the desert (0:46:48) Kelly: Yeah. (0:46:56) Kelly: Oh, I’m excited for the the fishing derbies tomorrow. Today. Today! (0:46:57) Al: which is good fun. (0:47:03) Al: Yes. (0:47:05) Al: T-t-today. (0:47:06) Kelly: Um, I like that that um, I haven’t really experienced it yet but I saw something about the mastery system which I think is very interesting and I am excited to see how that plays out. (0:47:15) Al: I’m so close I just need to get my fishing up to 10 and then I can do it. (0:47:17) Kelly: Ah. Um, what else? Oh, the prize machine! (0:47:23) Al: Yes have you done that? (0:47:24) Kelly: Yes, I got two tickets so far. (0:47:26) Kelly: And I got an apricot tree. (0:

Al and Kelly talk about Pumpkin panic Join Al and Kelly in a quick journey through the world of cottagecore gaming. They share their experiences with “Pumpkin Panic,” discuss recent news, and leave you feeling cozy and inspired. Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:03:00: What Have We Been Up To 00:13:42: News 00:55:48: Pumpkin Panic 01:24:30: Outro Links Disney Dreamlight Valley Leaves Early Access Spirittea Release Len’s Island Roadmap Updated Moonstone Island Updated and DLC Released Stardew Valley Horseradish Juice Echoes of the Plum Grove Steam Page Echoes of the Plum Grove Kickstarter Pumpkin Panic Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Al: Hello farmers and welcome to another episode of the harvest season. (0:00:36) Al: My name is Al, and we’re here today to talk about cottagecore games. (0:00:37) Kelly: And my name is Kelly. (0:00:38) Kelly: Woo! (0:00:43) Al: Two weeks in a row Kelly, what’s happening here? (0:00:50) Kelly: I know. It’s even funny because Kevin brought it up. I did last year’s Halloween. (0:00:56) Kelly: Which I totally forgot. Because I totally forgot Cult of the Lamb came out last year. (0:00:56) Al: Yes. That was last year, my word, wild. Yes. Yeah, yeah. I mean, why not? But hey, I’m on, I think this is, is this my first Halloween ep? No, no, I was on one with Rochelle, the original Graveyard Keeper one, I think, I was on. But I hadn’t played the game, so Rochelle I was basically just telling me. (0:01:01) Kelly: Yeah. It’s just my season. I don’t know what to say. (0:01:18) Kelly: I was gonna say Kevin brought that up last time actually, yeah. (0:01:22) Kelly: Okay. (0:01:24) Kelly: Well, welcome to your own podcast Halloween episode. (0:01:26) Al: about it and I was asking questions, but I think I’ve not been on any of the other Halloween episodes. So I’m here. Yay. Awesome. Well, thank you for joining us, Kelly. It’s good to talk to you again, even if Kevin did steal you from me for the last week. This one has been organized for much longer. Much longer. Yeah. Yeah. We have had a bunch of different ideas for last week and none of them were really like enough. (0:01:43) Kelly: Of course, thank you. (0:01:45) Kelly: I will say we planned this one. Yes. Last week was very impromptu. This is very much so planned. (0:02:01) Al: And there was a point where Kevin was like, I can’t do the recording time we have. And I’m like, well, I’m traveling the rest of the time. So so he kicked me off. He kicked me off my own podcast and and brought you on instead. So thank you very much for that. (0:02:16) Kelly: Always a pleasure. I did have to do a little, like, briefing on it though, because I hadn’t played Graveyard Keeper in, like, a year, and I was like, “Oh, what is this game again?” (0:02:19) Al: Oh, yes. Fair enough. (0:02:26) Al: Well, we don’t have that problem with this week’s game because it’s incredibly quick to play some of it and get a very good idea of what this game is. So this episode, we’re going to talk about pumpkin panic. And we’ll have lots to say about that later on in the episode. But yes, we’re going to talk about that just to mention that transcripts are available for the podcast in the show notes and on the website. So if you need that, that’s (0:02:57) Al: OK. Before we talk about pumpkin panic, we’re going to talk about the news. But first of all, Kelly, what have you been up to? (0:03:02) Kelly: I have been playing, I actually just finished this morning, I started playing the cosmic wheel of sisterhood. (0:03:16) Kelly: So this is an interactive story game where you play as a witch who has been banished from her coven, and you are kind of trying to make your way back. (0:03:32) Kelly: You play into your coven and you create tarot cards and you read the tarot cards to kind of create the gameplay in the world. (0:03:45) Kelly: And you have visitors. (0:03:48) Kelly: So I am not always great at story games because as much as I love reading, I also get very frustrated at a lot of stories in games. (0:03:53) Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:03:58) Kelly: And I thought this, they did this so good. (0:04:01) Kelly: I thought it was so much fun. (0:04:02) Kelly: Because you’re so hands-on with it. (0:04:03) Al: This seems a little bit more involved than a standard visual novel. (0:04:12) Al: Is it just mainly the one minigame that I’m seeing on this Steam page? (0:04:16) Kelly: Um, what is… what is… (0:04:18) Kelly: Um, kind of. So that’s like… (0:04:18) Al: with making the cards. (0:04:22) Kelly: You have that, you can do like there’s interactive stories within the story. (0:04:27) Kelly: Um, so there’s like different… I wouldn’t call them mini-games, but like the interactions are the rest of it. (0:04:33) Al: Right, OK. (0:04:33) Kelly: Um, and… (0:04:34) Al: But it’s not it’s not just like click a button and see the next. (0:04:36) Kelly: You kind of… like obviously… (0:04:40) Kelly: No, no, no, no. Yeah, there’s definitely… (0:04:42) Al: Here’s one choice sort of thing, right? (0:04:46) Kelly: You make the choices as to what you’re gonna do, who you would mite over to your little house. (0:04:50) Kelly: Um, and then… (0:04:53) Kelly: Even when you pull a tarot card, you have the choice as to how to explain the card. (0:04:57) Kelly: So, there is a lot of, um, leeway into how the interactions go and how the story itself is gonna go. (0:05:05) Kelly: So like I did a run, and I can do a totally different run next time. (0:05:06) Al: Okay. All right. (0:05:11) Kelly: So you do have you really do like you kind of write the story yourself as much as you can for you know (0:05:19) Al: It has very positive reviews on Steam, it has over a thousand. (0:05:23) Kelly: demo. There’s a demo which I would highly suggest playing because that’s definitely what I did and once I finished the demo I immediately bought the game and all of your stuff transfers over which is so nice because I hate when you start a demo especially for a game like this and you got to start it over. But yeah I thought it was like a very nice little like casual gameplay but like still very interesting. And like kind of emotional. (0:05:53) Al: Shocking when they make you feel things. How dare they? (0:05:53) Kelly: Right? What have you been up to, Al? (0:05:56) Al: Well, speaking of making you feeling things, before I get into games, I have watched the new film “Killers of the Flower Moon”. Have you seen… I presume you haven’t seen… (0:06:08) Kelly: I have not seen it yet, however I have owned that book for like a decade or so. (0:06:14) Al: Yeah, mm-hmm (0:06:15) Kelly: My dad bought it years ago. My dad’s a very big like historical novel kind of person and then we actually read it in my book club about two years ago or a year ago. I really enjoyed it. I thought the book was very good. I have not watched the movie yet, but I’ve heard very positive reviews. (0:06:28) Al: » Okay. Yeah. (0:06:38) Kelly: Even from the Native American community about the movie, of course there’s some things that probably could have been done differently, (0:06:45) Kelly: but I think that’s anytime it happens when you’re telling somebody else’s story. (0:06:46) Al: Hmm. I think, yeah, yeah, definitely. I think there’s a lot about the film that is obviously, (0:06:54) Al: you know, there’s some, you know, some racist stuff in the film, right? Obviously. But that’s the sort of thing where it’s like, well, yeah, but you’re talking about a, you know, a racist crime, (0:06:57) Kelly: Mm-hmm Yeah, yeah, you’re telling a story from 1930 or 20 or whatever (0:07:04) Al: right? Like, yeah, yeah, exactly. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s not, don’t go into expecting a good time. (0:07:15) Kelly: Yeah, and unfortunately I don’t think the story would be accurate if those things are kind of left out because they do play a big role in what’s going on with the story itself. (0:07:16) Al: No, of course. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I enjoyed that. It’s very long. It’s very long. So that’s why I was up really late on Thursday night because of that. (0:07:26) Kelly: But crazy. Yes. (0:07:37) Al: Because I saw the showing started at half seven and like I wasn’t home until quarter past midnight. (0:07:44) Kelly: Wow. Wow. (0:07:44) Al: So. (laughs) (0:07:46) Al: I don’t regret going to see it, it was very good. (0:07:49) Kelly: Which I feel like is such a… it’s such a hard thing to achieve with some of this… (0:07:49) Al: And I don’t think it was… (0:07:51) Al: Like, it doesn’t feel like it was unnecessarily long, right? (0:07:54) Al: Like, I feel like he was doing something with every minute that you had. (0:07:58) Al: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. (0:08:03) Kelly: these stories. Like, I mean, I feel like I didn’t see Oppenheimer, but I feel like that a lot of people talked about that. (0:08:09) Kelly: Feeling kind of like dragged out in a lot of spots. (0:08:12) Al: Interesting. Yeah, I suspect a lot of these things depends on how you feel about quiet moments that make you contemplate. Right. Absolutely. You can’t be talking about a massacre or about, (0:08:21) Kelly: Which I think these stories need those moments. (0:08:24) Kelly: So I don’t see anything wrong with that. (0:08:27) Kelly: Yeah, just on to the next scene. (0:08:30) Al: you know, wiping out of a city without having some moments to make you think, “Wow, that’s bad!” (0:08:40) Al: Exactly, exactly. So it’s quite great. (0:08:42) Al: So I enjoyed it. It was good. I don’t think I’m going to watch it a second time. It’s not like I’m going to watch this film again. But yeah. (0:08:54) Kelly: I will say on that note, the book is also extremely good. I know, Allie, you said you’re probably not going to read it, but if anybody out there is interested, very interesting. (0:09:05) Al: Yeah, people don’t really. Yeah. (0:09:10) Kelly: I think some historical novels can be kind of boring and dragged out because I do read a lot of history. This was very good. This was written in a way that like really you You just, you had to keep going. (0:09:24) Kelly: No matter what. It wasn’t, it wasn’t… (0:09:26) Kelly: Umm, oh my god, what’s his name? (0:09:28) Kelly: The Devil in White City guy, Eric Larson. (0:09:30) Kelly: I like some of his works. They can also be a bit cumbersome. (0:09:31) Al: Yeah. Fair enough. Yeah. I mean, just to make a point of it, like people don’t like when I talk about the fact that I don’t really read books, but I don’t really read books. (0:09:34) Kelly: So I don’t think it was like that. (0:09:47) Al: And it’s not like I read books as a child. And the problem is that I just I struggle because I don’t have like the visual aspect in my brain. Like I’m not I’m not able to see the things that are described. So so much of a book I just kind of skim over. (0:09:53) Kelly: Yes, yeah. (0:10:01) Al: Because it’s like descriptive stuff that doesn’t really mean anything because I can’t see it. (0:10:04) Kelly: Whereas I’m the complete opposite and I see everything in my head and then I get really mad when the movie comes out and skews my perspective on how I envisioned everything. (0:10:05) Al: Um… (0:10:12) Al: Yeah. I always found that hilarious when people were like, “Oh, it’s nothing like what it is in the book. It’s not like what I imagined it.” And I’m like, “What do you mean it’s nothing like what you imagined it?” I don’t understand what you mean by this. And now that I understand that people now make up images in their head, suddenly I understand what they mean now. They’re like, (0:10:22) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:10:32) Kelly: Yep Yep, it’s it’s so funny cuz like my roommate is like you she can’t see anything in her head and I’m like, well What do you what do you mean? What do you how are you living? I don’t understand Well, I am That is the that is the issue Thank you. (0:10:33) Al: “Oh, this isn’t exactly what I had imagined in my head.” (0:10:46) Al: Oh, I’m just like, how do you ever get anything done? Are you not constantly distracted by the things in your head? (0:11:00) Al: So I’ve also played a bunch of games, because I apparently haven’t been on the podcast for multiple episodes. So I have played and finished Sonic Superstars and Mario Wonder, and I have been playing through the new Spider-Man game. That is taking me longer, because just like It’s on my PS5, you have to kind of sit down and deliver. (0:11:16) Al: All those games are great, Sonic Super Star is good, Mario Wonder is fantastic, Spider-Man is fantastic. (0:11:28) Al: Both of those two games did things that I couldn’t, I just wouldn’t have expected what they did. (0:11:36) Al: It’s not just like, oh there are another version of this game, right? (0:11:41) Al: They both do things that are like, this is brand new stuff, really interesting. (0:11:41) Kelly: I think that’s so exciting, especially for the Mario games because I feel like, you know, (0:11:46) Al: That I really, really like. (0:11:48) Al: Yeah. (0:11:50) Al: Yeah. (0:11:52) Kelly: how long has it been? (0:11:52) Al: Yeah. (0:11:53) Kelly: How many games have come out? (0:11:54) Al: Yeah. (0:11:55) Kelly: Like, how do you keep reinventing the wheel? (0:11:56) Al: Yeah, definitely. (0:11:58) Kelly: But it’s still exciting to find out that they can. (0:11:58) Al: Yeah, and I think, I mean I don’t think they need to do that for every single game. (0:12:02) Kelly: No! (0:12:02) Al: Like I enjoyed every game in the new series. (0:12:07) Al: Like they’re all fun, they don’t have to be completely different, they all have new challenges in their different levels. (0:12:13) Al: levels but it is also fun to occasionally get like this is just. (0:12:16) Al: Just a completely different way of thinking and the the Wonderflowers just do just crazy things in the levels that make it just so different. (0:12:26) Al: You know it’s not just like oh here’s a different power-up and the new power-ups are fun as well but it’s not just like oh this one’s a bubble instead of a fire right and that’s that’s fun but it’s not like a radical idea whereas like the Wonderflowers are like what if this was a top-down game instead of a side-scroller and you’re like. (0:12:46) Al: Like what if apparently now we’re doing that you know like I think it’s the weird stuff that they did with that game and it’s like what if the Piranha plant sang you know. (0:12:57) Kelly: Oh my god, I saw the clips of that, they’re so cute! (0:13:02) Al: It’s just like I love the idea of that it’s just brainstorm a hundred and the weird thing is every single level has one right it’s not like this is the sort of thing that you wouldn’t you if if they told you but you’re like oh that’d be fun so like you know it’d be like all the boss battles. (0:13:16) Al: Have them or what like this. (0:13:16) Kelly: That’s cool. That’s very cool. (0:13:18) Al: A couple of levels in every world. (0:13:20) Al: Every single world has one. (0:13:25) Al: So yeah, good fun. (0:13:26) Al: I’ve also been playing Harvest Moon Winds of Anthos because I need to play that. (0:13:32) Al: So I’ll talk about that next week. (0:13:35) Al: I don’t think we need to talk about that just now. (0:13:39) Al: It is what it is. (0:13:40) Al: Cool. (0:13:41) Al: News. Should we talk about some news? (0:13:47) Al: Let’s start with the controversial stuff. (0:13:50) Al: Disney Dreamlight Valley. (0:13:51) Al: Have you played this yet? (0:13:52) Kelly: No, I have not. I think when it first like when they first announced it I was like oh this looks really cute If I’m not playing anything, I’ll probably play it Yes So I don’t think I will be playing Because like free to play You know, I know there’s gonna be some payment stuff, but you can kind of avoid it sometimes (0:14:00) Al: Yeah, were you waiting for it to go free to play? That’s the question. (0:14:04) Al: Yeah, well wait no longer! It is no longer going to be free to play! (0:14:08) Al: I think this is fast, so this is okay, so full context. (0:14:16) Al: Yes, yeah definitely. (0:14:23) Kelly: Or at least you can get an idea of what the game is before you decide to put money into it Yes, sorry jumping ahead (0:14:27) Al: so yeah so let’s okay well let’s put that let’s put the (0:14:30) Al: the discussion of that bit aside let’s let’s get into the actual news of it so the game is leaving early access on the 5th of december so that will be the first full version of the game whatever that means they have announced that it’s not going to be free to play anymore so you will have to to buy it they have also announced that there is going to be a paid dlc coming which they’re going to detail you’ll know more about this when you listen to this episode because they’re going to be saying more about it on the day this episode comes out (0:15:00) Al: that next week as well but they have also said that they are still going to continue to have free content updates so it’s not all going to be paid dlc I think that there are so many different ways to buy this game now it’s weird have you looked at the so in the main link on there they’ve got a list of the new ways to buy the game which is like you can just buy the game for $40 or you you can buy the physical cozy edition. (0:15:26) Kelly: Oh, I saw this. (0:15:30) Al: Which also gives you some stuff and that’s $50 or you can buy the gold edition, which also has more exclusive items and gives you the DLC or you can buy the DLC separately and these purchase options are on top of what the current purchase options are for early access, which you can still do until the 4th of December. (0:15:52) Al: I know it’s so bizarre. (0:15:53) Kelly: I think I got a headache just looking at this earlier. (0:15:58) Kelly: I was like, what is this, a streaming service? (0:16:00) Kelly: What the hell is this? (0:16:00) Al: I think I just it feels like so I think you can you can frame not being free to play as positive and negative right negative obviously a bunch of people who were like yeah I get to play the game without paying for it now don’t get to do that they either have to pay or they don’t get to play the game and that’s really frustrating I get why people would be frustrated by that. (0:16:22) Al: On the other hand obviously we know that free to play games are very manipulative and are very good at sucking. (0:16:26) Kelly: Oh, absolutely, yes. (0:16:28) Kelly: Well, so that’s what I was gonna ask, right? Like they’re not removing microtransactions from the game. (0:16:30) Al: But it’s not like there aren’t going to be ways to pay for things inside the game after you’ve bought it. (0:16:37) Al: No so I it feels like they’re just doing a bit of both worlds which. (0:16:42) Kelly: Yes, they want their cake and they’re gonna have their cake and eat it too kind of thing. (0:16:46) Al: Yeah yeah it’s not not great. (0:16:49) Kelly: And then the the $40 base price is kind of wild. (0:16:52) Al: It does seem let me so let me double check. (0:16:56) Kelly: To go from free-to-play to $40? (0:16:59) Kelly: Oh wait, so if you paid for early access, does that come out of the base? (0:17:00) Al: The early access prices. (0:17:02) Al: Because. (0:17:04) Al: So if you paid for access you have the game now so you don’t have to buy the game again and they’ve also said as a thank you to our early access players all unique cosmetic items included in the upcoming gold edition will be given free of charge to any player who purchases and claims of founders pack in game or on on or before December the 4th no matter the tier. (0:17:30) Kelly: Okay, that’s nice because I think… (0:17:30) Al: And not only that but all founders will also receive 2500 min stones to celebrate this that’s. (0:17:32) Kelly: Okay, that’s nice. (0:17:39) Kelly: Nice. (0:17:41) Al: So let me just double check the prices for… (0:17:47) Al: Yes, so here we are. So there’s three different versions you can buy in Early Access. (0:17:50) Al: Well, this is the thing. This is where it’s wild. So there’s the standard Founders Edition, (0:17:51) Kelly: Oh my god. But how many tears? (0:18:01) Al: which is the Early Access to Dreamland Valley plus 8,000 Moonstones plus a bunch of exclusive stuff, (0:18:08) Al: and that is $30. So $10. (0:18:11) Al: cheaper than the final price. And then there’s the deluxe founders rewards which gives you 14,500 moonstones. I don’t know why they insist on always like it’s not 15, why not 15? Weird. And a bunch of more exclusive items and that one I don’t have a price for but I think it might have been, it was either 50 or 60. (0:18:34) Kelly: Well, that’s 50 on here, on the regular one. (0:18:36) Al: Yeah. I think, I think… (0:18:42) Al: Yeah, it’s 50, 50. And then there’s the ultimate founders edition which gives you 20,000 moonstones and a bunch of extra cosmetic things. And that one was $6, $70? (0:18:58) Kelly: Okay, I think that makes sense because the gold edition for the standard game is (0:19:03) Al: So there are like seven different ways to buy this game. All with different things. (0:19:08) Kelly: Oh my god. (0:19:10) Kelly: And then the DLC is $30. (0:19:11) Al: So it’s like if you… Yes, which is only included in the Gold Edition, not as far as I can tell, (0:19:19) Al: any of the Early Access editions. So if you have Early Access, you still have to pay for the (0:19:25) Kelly: I have some things I’d like to say, and I’m gonna maybe keep them to myself. (0:19:31) Al: So I will say you do get a capybara companion if you buy the gold edition. (0:19:31) Kelly: It is very cute. It’s very cute. It has a flower crown. (0:19:40) Al: A flowery capybara companion. (0:19:41) Kelly: I mean, you can’t go wrong with the capybara. (0:19:46) Al: True that. (0:19:48) Kelly: Listen, the game looks so cute. I think that’s why this is kind of so disappointing. (0:19:52) Al: Yes, yeah, yeah, it is. (0:19:59) Al: So I think it is a good game and if you said to me this game… (0:20:01) Al: Why did they say that? Why did they even say that? (0:20:04) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:20:20) Kelly: Exactly. They made the promise. Yeah. (0:20:23) Kelly: And that’s so frustrating because that’s what they’ve been writing on since they announced this. Like why, why, why? And then to announce the changes a month before. (0:20:37) Al: Just why? (0:20:39) Al: I know, I know, I know it’s so… (0:20:40) Kelly: And then also, so if you buy the cozy edition, besides the flowery capybara and the expansion (0:20:50) Kelly: is there anything else you’re missing? Like are you limited from gameplay? Okay. (0:20:52) Al: No, no you’re not, you’re not. So the only gameplay, so everything that’s exclusive outside of the expansion pass, everything that’s exclusive is just cosmetics. If you buy, if you… it is, isn’t it? It’s not quite that bad yet, but it definitely feels like that’s where they’re going yes the funny thing is (0:21:07) Kelly: Okay, that’s a little bit better, but you know what? It’s giving me sims. (0:21:14) Kelly: No, but it’s getting there. Yeah. (0:21:22) Al: right see if you buy the base game and you buy the expansion pass that’s one cent cheaper than buying the gold edition which gives you the base game and the expansion pass I mean it also gives you the it does give you the capacity is the capybara worth one cent that’s the it just seems like why is the gold edition the same price as it seems weird (0:21:33) Kelly: Yeah, but no capybara. (0:21:47) Kelly: It does, like also, like okay so if you if you do really want to play this game, (0:21:51) Kelly: why would you buy the base edition and the expansion pack instead of just buying the gold edition? (0:21:55) Kelly: Again, this is just such a headache to look at. (0:21:55) Al: Yeah, yeah, well, that’s that yeah, so yeah seven different seven different ways to buy this game You either buy it in one of the three early access ways of buying it or you buy it in one of the three Non-early access ways to buy it if you wait till the 5th of December and then you either buy the expansion mass or not We don’t know what’s in the expansion pass exactly they’ll be telling us that on Wednesday today if you’re listening on the day this comes out (0:22:24) Al: There are some hints. (0:22:25) Al: There we’ve seen Gaston and… oh is that Rapunzel? I think it’s Rapunzel. (0:22:33) Kelly: Oh, yes, that’s Rapunzel in the back. And then, uh, Eva. Eve, Eve. (0:22:34) Al: Who’s the little robot? Oh was that from Wally? (0:22:38) Kelly: Eeeve. (0:22:40) Kelly: Yeah, from Wally. (0:22:41) Al: Okay I still haven’t seen Wally. I know, I know. So I went through a period of time of just not watching Disney Pixar stuff. (0:22:42) Kelly: What? (0:22:44) Kelly: Ugh. (0:22:47) Kelly: I mean, I’ve never seen Tangled, so whatever, but Wally’s so good. (0:22:52) Al: I have seen (0:22:55) Al: a few of them since, but I haven’t caught up on all of them. I just watched, what’s it called, Elemental today. (0:23:10) Kelly: How was it? I get clips on TikTok and it seems pretty cute. (0:23:14) Kelly: I feel like the trailer kind of made it seem like it was going to be like a knock-off uh… (0:23:14) Al: I enjoyed it, yeah. It’s better than the trailer that made me think it was going to be. (0:23:22) Kelly: How am I… I’m blanking on it. (0:23:24) Kelly: No, um… I can’t think right now. I don’t know. (0:23:25) Al: Anything can roll me on Juliet. (0:23:30) Kelly: It just felt very familiar, I guess, if that… (0:23:34) Al: Yeah, it is. There’s nothing particular about it that’s interesting on you, but I think it does a good job of being a fun and enjoyable and emotional way of exploring immigration and an immigrant’s family’s journey and some of those struggles. I think it does a good job. (0:23:50) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:23:52) Kelly: That’s uh, that’s like kind of like again, I watched a lot of clips on tiktok. I get so sucked into the movie clips on tiktok But I think that that’s exactly the vibe I got to I was like very surprised I feel like With the difference between the trailer and how the actual movie seemed to be See ya later. (0:24:03) Al: fair. (0:24:16) Al: Yeah. I don’t know what that trailer was about, because like the trailer came out and everyone went “this looks terrible, what are you doing?” and then the phone came out and people were like “yes, yes, sorry, it’s good, it’s good, it’s enjoyable”. Yeah. Yeah. I’m not going to say it’s the best Pixar film, but it’s certainly not the worst. It’s good. I enjoyed it. Yeah, so that’s, we don’t, we’ve seen Gaston and Rapunzel and would you say Eve? (0:24:19) Kelly: Bye. (0:24:27) Kelly: Yeah, I feel like every review I’ve seen of it, people really liked it, like they enjoyed it, so… (0:24:46) Kelly: Eve, yeah. I think that Eve, Eevee, something like that? Not Eevee, but it’s like that, yeah. (0:24:46) Al: And there’s a snake and a pig. So we don’t know a huge amount, we’ll see, but it’s, I don’t think so. (0:24:57) Kelly: Is that the jungle book? (0:24:58) Kelly: No, that’s not the snake from the jungle book. (0:25:03) Kelly: Oh, there’s a creature in the tree too. (0:25:05) Kelly: That is the jungle book. (0:25:07) Kelly: Look at the monkey in the tree. (0:25:09) Kelly: I’m pretty sure that’s the jungle book. (0:25:11) Al: Anyway, well, no more. It’s interesting that this is their first paid DLC, so they are locking content behind another paywall, which is what it is. I’m not saying that’s necessarily a bad thing. I’m just saying it is what it is. So don’t expect to pay the base price of the game and get all of the updates for free forever. That’s not going to happen. (0:25:22) Kelly: Which I think is just… (0:25:24) Kelly: Yes. (0:25:34) Kelly: I just think it’s a little wild to go from free to play to the base game is free and then the DLC is also the same price as like a game. (0:25:36) Al: It’s not Stardew Valley. (0:25:41) Al: Well, that’s the thing. If you want to now play everything that will be available on the 5th of December, it’s gone from zero to $70. Yes, you say there’s going to be more free content updates, but you know there’s going to be more paid DLC as well. (0:26:01) Kelly: Oh, and like you said, there’s transactions in the game probably too, right? (0:26:04) Al: Yep, yep, yep. So I never outright bought it. (0:26:06) Kelly: Do you have early access or no? (0:26:11) Al: Although I will now be buying it because I was waiting for it to be free before I got it on Switch. But I did have it on Game Pass for a while, and I was playing it on that. (0:26:14) Kelly: Well… (0:26:16) Kelly: Oh, uh, okay. (0:26:25) Al: The thing that I’m frustrated with free to play is not that I have to pay for the game. (0:26:28) Al: I’m fine with paying for the game. What I’m frustrated is I now have to decide what I’m playing it on. When it’s free to play, it would mean I could have it on everything and choose depending on how I’m feeling on the day or how they play on different platforms. (0:26:29) Kelly: - Yeah. (0:26:41) Al: Whereas now I need to go, or no, I need to decide do I want to on Switch or do I want to on Steam Deck. (0:26:45) Kelly: Mm-hmm That’s fair I just I think it’s just I’m mostly annoyed about being told the whole time that it’s gonna be free to play and then Getting the rug pulled out from under you a month before (0:26:46) Al: I think I’m going to do it. (0:26:54) Al: It’s bizarre. Never make these decisions upfront. Yeah. Wild. Never say, “Oh, next year when release is good.” Just don’t do it. It’s pointless. It is. I mean, it doesn’t feel like it should be that big a promise for, you know, one of the biggest companies in the world. (0:27:05) Kelly: It’s a big promise to make. (0:27:07) Kelly: No, no, no, no, it shouldn’t. (0:27:12) Kelly: I think that’s another point that I was trying not to bring up is like, come on, like of all people Do you really need to be charging this much? (0:27:21) Al: Yeah, I suspect. What I suspect is they didn’t expect it to be as popular as it has been and people to like it as much. Like, this is a good game, right? This isn’t one of these, like, “Oh, they’ve just thrown some money at someone and got a really rubbish game based on a film,” right? This is a really good game, and if you like Disney characters, (0:27:42) Al: this is a great game to play because there’s so much lore and you get to, like, be friends with the characters that you like in the games. It’s really good fun. (0:27:51) Al: And the farming is good. It’s not their best, but it’s good. It’s a good game. That’s part of the problem is I think they were probably expecting it to be a standard free to play game. The people who made those decisions, right? We’re expecting it to be like, Oh, (0:28:05) Al: this isn’t a game we’re going to manage to convince people to pay for. Oh wait, no people like the game. Oh, well, we’re gonna, we’re gonna charge people in, you know. (0:28:12) Kelly: And I think back to your point, like, I’m not… I mean, obviously I grew up on Disney, whatever. (0:28:19) Kelly: I’m not the biggest Disney person. I still wanted to play the game. Like, it looked like a good game. (0:28:24) Al: It is. It is a good farming game. It is a good cottagecore game. (0:28:26) Kelly: But I think now, like, someone like me, I’m not gonna play this game, to be quite honest. (0:28:31) Al: Yeah. (0:28:34) Kelly: Because I’m not gonna pay, whatever, 40 bucks at the minimum. (0:28:38) Kelly: I mean, to be honest, I’m mostly playing indie games, so like… (0:28:42) Kelly: He paying $40 is like, I really wanted to play this game. (0:28:42) Al: Yes, it’s cheap compared to some games, but… (0:28:45) Kelly: Yes. But by my standards, that’s a triple-A game. (0:28:52) Kelly: Literally. (0:28:53) Al: You could buy Stardew four times for that price. (0:28:55) Kelly: Literally. (0:28:59) Al: You could buy Stardew on all your consoles if you wanted, and you probably already have. (0:29:06) Al: Last couple of things, the Cozy Edition, as we mentioned, that’s the… (0:29:12) Al: physical edition. (0:29:13) Al: I do not know why they’re calling it this, it is a stupid name, but whatever. (0:29:17) Al: It has been delayed until the 10th of November, except the Switch version in North America. (0:29:25) Al: All the other versions have been delayed. (0:29:26) Kelly: How lucky. (0:29:29) Al: It’s such a weird… (0:29:30) Al: I mean, first of all, who’s buying this game physically? (0:29:33) Al: That is a weird decision to make. (0:29:35) Al: I don’t… (0:29:35) Kelly: I could see if it was released closer to Christmas or something. (0:29:36) Al: Why are you… yeah, okay, I guess that’s a good point. (0:29:39) Kelly: Like, does anything come with it? (0:29:41) Kelly: No, no, I mean like physical. (0:29:42) Al: Yeah, you do get a few cosmetics extra with it, but that’s all. (0:29:47) Al: Oh, no. (0:29:47) Kelly: No, then no. (0:29:49) Al: No, no, it’s just a case with the game and a code that gives you some extra cosmetics, (0:29:49) Kelly: Oh, not even… yeah, no, no, no. (0:29:58) Al: that’s it. (0:30:00) Al: I think, yeah, you’re probably right though, that’s exactly it. (0:30:03) Al: It’s because people will buy a game for people physically, right? (0:30:06) Kelly: Yeah. (0:30:06) Kelly: I was about to say, “Your grandma can buy a friend.” (0:30:07) Al: That’s why they always do that, because then your grandmother can walk into a shop and buy a game for you. (0:30:12) Al: Oh, they like Disney. (0:30:14) Al: Yeah, that’s exactly what it is, isn’t it? (0:30:14) Kelly: Exactly. (0:30:16) Kelly: Oh, Disney characters? (0:30:17) Kelly: This is perfect. (0:30:20) Al: Don’t buy this game physically. (0:30:23) Al: It’s weird decision to make. (0:30:24) Al: I mean, do what you want. (0:30:26) Al: I’m not. Anyway, and I guess the final point to say is that Micah has finally been vindicated because he bought the game not knowing it was going to be free to play. (0:30:35) Al: And turns out it’s not going to be free to play. (0:30:36) Kelly: Oh, really? (0:30:40) Al: So he gets the last laugh. (0:30:43) Al: I think. Yeah, he didn’t. (0:30:45) Al: It was really funny because we were I can’t remember when it was. (0:30:47) Al: But the first episode that I had him on after the game came out, (0:30:52) Al: we were talking about how he was playing it and then how he bought it. (0:30:54) Al: And then I’d mentioned that it was going to be free to play. (0:30:57) Al: And he was like, wait, what? (0:30:58) Al: It was very funny. (0:31:01) Al: I think he bought the Ultimate Founders Edition as well. (0:31:02) Kelly: Well, it seems like he was gonna pay the money no matter what, so… (0:31:03) Al: So that’s like he paid the seventy dollars. (0:31:06) Al: Well, yeah, that’s true. (0:31:08) Kelly: You know, I feel like in that instance, it doesn’t matter if it was free to play or not. (0:31:13) Al: That’s true, that’s true. (0:31:14) Al: I think that’s everything about that. Wow, we just spent 15 minutes talking about that. (0:31:21) Al: Cool, so there you go. 5th of December, that’s the important thing. If you want any of the special stuff that comes with only early access, go get that as soon as you can. If you don’t, (0:31:34) Al: then don’t. If you’re not going to buy this game, I’m sorry. There we go. (0:31:39) Al: Speaking of games coming out with less controversy. (0:31:42) Al: Spirit tea. So this is the farming game slash Spirited away type game where you are running a tea Once ago tea. Yeah. Yes And Yeah, I kick started it when I came out because I’m I thought I I actually have access to the game already I know right (0:31:55) Kelly: It’s like a tea house, bath shop. (0:31:58) Kelly: It looks so cute. (0:31:59) Kelly: I wanna get this. (0:32:01) Kelly: This is, I’m definitely getting. (0:32:08) Kelly: Oh my god. (0:32:12) Al: So, yeah, I kick started the game looking forward to playing it it is the is finally releasing on the 13th of November So if you have been looking forward to running your own little tea house tea shop wherever you want to call it with a bath house and Play with some spirits. I don’t I don’t know the right words to use with this game yet. Go go get it It’s mostly one guy who’s been developing it for a bunch of years. He’s working with a publisher But yeah, if you like game– (0:32:42) Al: games that are as indie as they come, go get it. (0:32:47) Al: Yeah, yeah, it’s not just your standard. (0:32:47) Kelly: It looks like a nice little spin on the farming game. (0:32:55) Al: Go plant some turnips and then you get better crops. (0:32:58) Kelly: Yeah. (0:32:59) Al: Lens Island have updated their roadmap, (0:33:04) Al: so they have said that their 1.0 is coming out in July 2024. (0:33:09) Al: I think this is the first official date we got from them. (0:33:12) Al: We had got some– they’d originally wanted to release it this year, (0:33:16) Al: and then at some point they’d said it would be next year. (0:33:20) Kelly: That’s nice to get a solid time actually. It always is. You’re talking to the person waiting for Silksong here, I know. (0:33:23) Al: It’s dangerous, but yeah, nice. So I look forward to Lens Island coming out in November of next year. (0:33:36) Al: They’ve also said there are going to be two more updates this year. One in November, (0:33:47) Al: which, oh look, it’s November now, and one in December, and then there’ll be a final. (0:33:53) Al: Major update before the final release in March of next year, and then the final release in July of next year. So if you are waiting for that one point of release of Lens Island, (0:34:06) Al: that’s when you’re going for it. I actually own this game as well, and I haven’t played it. (0:34:11) Al: It’s quite combat focused this game, and when I first got it when it first entered Early Access, (0:34:22) Al: because I kickstarted that. (0:34:23) Al: I need to stop kickstarting things. (0:34:26) Al: I kickstart all the farming games. (0:34:28) Kelly: You just want to be hip and say, “I was here first.” [laughs] (0:34:29) Al: It’s a sickness, Kelly. (0:34:32) Al: Yeah, I know, right? (0:34:38) Al: They didn’t have controller support at that point. (0:34:41) Al: And of course, I was playing it on my Steam Deck, so it was not fun to play with. (0:34:46) Al: So I spent like five minutes and went, nope, not doing this. (0:34:48) Al: I’m waiting for controller support. (0:34:48) Kelly: Wait, if it didn’t have– (0:34:51) Kelly: how does that work, then? (0:34:53) Al: I think you can map any button or any touchpad or anything to any standard PC controls. (0:35:03) Al: So you can say, if I press this button, (0:35:06) Al: I press this keyboard button or I press this mouse button or I do this gesture or there’s loads of clever things you can do, and it works really well for a lot of things, but it wasn’t working for this. (0:35:17) Kelly: That’s very fair. (0:35:18) Al: I was like, I need to wait for official controller support for this one. (0:35:19) Kelly: I do think it’s funny that the release date on Steam is November 26, 2021. (0:35:22) Al: So that’s what I did. (0:35:28) Kelly: ‘Cause it’s 2023? (0:35:28) Al: Why is that date funny? (0:35:31) Al: OK, well, that was the early access release date. (0:35:32) Kelly: I know, I know, but I’m just saying it’s funny to like sit here and look at the news about, you know, it getting released next year. (0:35:35) Al: OK. (0:35:37) Al: Yes, yes. (0:35:42) Al: Moonstone Island are I think I think you and Kevin talked about the DLC for that last week, they’ve announced that there is a free update coming with the DLC as well, which should be out now. (0:35:57) Al: So it includes an expansion to the green. (0:35:58) Al: House closing old mine holes. (0:36:01) Al: I don’t know what that means. (0:36:03) Al: Who knows? (0:36:03) Kelly: Umm, okay. (0:36:06) Kelly: I’m assuming monsters come out of the mine holes, maybe? (0:36:10) Al: I think it’s a creature collection game. (0:36:10) Kelly: I don’t know. (0:36:12) Kelly: Stop the children from falling down the mines. (0:36:13) Al: It’s a creature. (0:36:15) Al: Yeah, we do. We don’t want that. (0:36:18) Al: Inventory manage improvements and adjustable day length are the big things that they were highlighting. There’s I mean, the patch notes are much more detailed. I’m not going through them. (0:36:28) Al: There’s a lot of stuff. I’ll link it in the show notes. (0:36:31) Al: Go look at that if you care about it. (0:36:32) Al: Yeah. Yeah. (0:36:32) Kelly: Yeah, this is the one it had a ton of updates last week too or two weeks ago Okay, that makes sense, but it seems like they’re really working to you know update any of these little issues (0:36:37) Al: I think most of it was like bug fixing and stuff. (0:36:39) Al: This is the first kind of like content update, I think. (0:36:42) Al: Content and feature update. (0:36:43) Al: So this is. Yeah, it’s. (0:36:45) Al: Yes. Yes, they are. (0:36:51) Al: This is one of those ones that I probably do want to play at some point, but. (0:36:55) Kelly: It looks really cute, too. It really does. I would like to play this. (0:36:55) Al: It does. It does. (0:36:58) Kelly: I mean, me too. I’m a sucker for collection in general. (0:36:58) Al: It’s also creature collection, and I’m a sucker for creature collection. (0:37:01) Al: Well, yes, that too. That too. (0:37:07) Al: That too. (0:37:08) Al: Yeah. Stardew Valley. (0:37:12) Al: Concerned Ape is continuing to just trickle things out. (0:37:15) Kelly: He’s been just dropping things. Yeah, like he it’s like it’s making me so annoyed because I’m like I don’t want to play stardew. I like I always do I do I’m actively spending my life fighting the urge to play stardew valley [laugh] (0:37:17) Al: I know. (0:37:18) Al: No, you do. You do, though. You do. (0:37:25) Al: You don’t lie. You want to play. (0:37:28) Al: What I love is like some of them are like, “here’s the most tiny little thing like this one, which is just a screenshot of wild horseradish juice.” (0:37:42) Kelly: Yeah. (0:37:42) Al: And my reaction was, “Oh, is that not already in the game? Okay!” (0:37:43) Kelly: I literally when I looked at it I was like oh yeah you can’t do anything with horseradish can you? (0:37:51) Al: So some of them are like this tiny thing where it’s just like, “Oh yeah, the update’s gonna have horseradish juice!” (0:37:58) Al: And then there was the one a few weeks ago which was like, “Here’s just like detailed ten bullet points of what’s coming in the update.” (0:38:04) Al: And you’re like, “Oh, okay!” (0:38:05) Kelly: Yep, listen, I would take every single one of these, I’m like, cool, awesome, great. (0:38:12) Kelly: But yeah, no, I saw this one and I was like, oh, another thing for me to micromanage. (0:38:18) Al: ALICE (KEEPER) Kelly, did you ever play any of the 1.5 update stuff? So that’s Ginger Island and stuff like that. (0:38:24) Kelly: Yes, so I started with actually my first Switch game. (0:38:26) Al: ALICE (KEEPER) I mean, I think it was for a lot of people. (0:38:28) Kelly: Yes, um… (0:38:32) Kelly: But I got my Switch a year later, so I was a year behind everybody. (0:38:33) Al: ALICE It came out nice and early in 2017 and yeah. Fair enough. Yeah. That’s all right, (0:38:39) Kelly: But I played it then, yes, and then I played it two years ago. (0:38:41) Al: so were the updates. (0:38:45) Al: Yeah. (0:38:45) Kelly: Yes, so Ginger Island had come out, which was fun because that wasn’t in my initial playthrough. (0:38:47) Al: Yeah. (0:38:49) Al: Yeah. (0:38:50) Al: I’m not sure. (0:38:51) Kelly: So that was really fun to go out. (0:38:54) Kelly: I feel like that really opened up a whole new part of the game and like extended it nicely. (0:38:57) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:39:06) Al: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, that’s what he’s doing, right? Like, just keep playing this game, please. (0:39:09) Kelly: Yeah. But I mean, he does it in such a good way. Like people would play this game even if he didn’t go out there and release, you know, updates to it. People would be replaying it it constantly anyway yep (0:39:12) Al: Here’s more stuff. I know. (0:39:21) Al: and people would pay for the updates and he just gives them out for free. (0:39:24) Kelly: yep what a good guy yes yes but I mean we might have talked about a game a few minutes ago that might have been doing a different thing no but I fully agree with your point you know it’s like (0:39:26) Al: I mean, he is a millionaire, so you know, like it’s easier to be a good guy when you’re a millionaire. But yes, it is. (0:39:38) Al: Absolutely. No, I don’t. Yep, I don’t. I’m not disagreeing with you. I’m not not trying to take it away from him. You’re absolutely right. (0:39:51) Al: I haven’t played the 1.5 stuff with Ginger Island and stuff like that. So I need to, (0:39:54) Kelly: Oh really? Okay. (0:39:56) Kelly: That might be the best, because especially it seems like he is adding quite a few things, so why not wait? (0:39:57) Al: it’s on my list of like, I really need to do this. So I’m trying to decide maybe I just wait for 1.6 to come out and do it all at the same time. (0:40:06) Al: Yeah, yeah, and I’m going to have to cover that. (0:40:11) Kelly: I will say there is one thing in Ginger Island, there’s like one thing that you really have to like hope for the luck of finding. (0:40:20) Kelly: So that can be a little frustrating, but I think if you kind of… (0:40:24) Kelly: I think the issue is more so when you don’t leave enough stuff to do at home to. (0:40:29) Kelly: And you kind of save Ginger Island for the very end and then you’re like, “Ugh, where is this thing? Come on, show me your…” (0:40:36) Kelly: Like, because it’s like one of those things where you can only collect a few things a day of it. (0:40:39) Kelly: Oh, I always do a new save. (0:40:39) Al: And then I need to make the decision of do I do a new save or do I continue my existing save. (0:40:45) Kelly: I know I should probably go back, but I love a restart. (0:40:49) Kelly: Like, I’ve got like five different room worlds because I just like… (0:40:52) Al: So mostly I have like one that I have done most of the things in, and then I have like a bunch of others that are like random challenges and a random multiplayer one. (0:40:52) Kelly: Could I go back and keep– (0:40:54) Kelly: I’m playing them sure. (0:41:12) Al: See I’m the opposite, I’m like I really should do a new one and see how it changes things because obviously it’s not. You don’t expedite. I need to do both realistically, right? Because it changes things. Exactly. Yeah. (0:41:16) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:41:18) Kelly: It’s like you get to see how you strategize and how you handle things differently and like, you know Going back in with like new knowledge and like all that stuff Like like this this the one I did two years ago, I have notes I take notes when I play this game So I have like field guides I’m like, you know the best things to do with this and each season and what you should pickle and what you should Kagan like blah blah blah like what Fisher what’s Oh Yeah Oh, no, I I love a (0:41:32) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:41:46) Al: Yeah, yeah. Oh, see, I don’t pickle and keg because I just can’t be bothered. I just go, (0:41:54) Al: what is the most expensive crop? Like the most for selling. And I just go with that. (0:41:59) Al: Like, I’m just like, I do like mayo and cheese and stuff like that. But I’m like, I don’t, (0:42:04) Al: I can’t be bothered with like putting my crops and these other things and waiting. No, I just sell. Like, I know you can make more money, but I don’t, I don’t want to do that. (0:42:12) Kelly: I love a good micromanage. It’s not even about the money because I’m a third point I don’t need more money. It’s literally just about me having tasks to do. But yeah, no, I’m like, I… At certain points I was like, okay, so if I place this many kegs in the basement, can I still access them if I walk around this way? (0:42:31) Al: Yes, what’s the optimum strategy? I think the problem is that they figured it out. There is a right answer to that in everything. (0:42:43) Kelly: Yes, which I don’t, I don’t want to sound like I’m one of those people who are doing things to the T perfect, like gotta have every second count. (0:42:54) Kelly: Like I definitely do things in my own little stupid way. (0:42:58) Al: Yeah. Yeah. I also quite like trying different things. So there was one quite early on with the podcast where me and Rachelle were trying to see how much money we could make just from mining. It was good fun. It was good fun. Yeah. Yeah. (0:42:59) Kelly: But there are certain things that I try to make sure I’m doing them correctly, I quote unquote correctly. (0:43:07) Kelly: So that I can get money and stuff from them, especially early game. (0:43:10) Kelly: Once you get to a certain point, it’s like, oh my God, do I need money? (0:43:20) Kelly: that’s a that’s a fun challenge I think those are like fun ways to like how can I do this how can I do this differently oh yeah like I’m a I’m I do this in every like game essentially but I love fishing for So I’m always like a sucker for that, but I feel like (0:43:28) Al: Yeah, exactly. And it’s like, you can actually make a lot of money that way. (0:43:32) Al: And it’s just fun to try the different ways of doing that because (0:43:50) Kelly: My last one I tried to like avoid that more so but It’s always fun to just try different ways do different things (0:43:54) Al: Fair enough. (0:43:56) Al: I also saw someone do a challenge which was like you can’t leave the farm and that was quite interesting. (0:44:06) Al: So they didn’t get a lot of seeds is part of the point, right? (0:44:11) Al: So obviously you get them from foraging, you can get seeds just from foraging. (0:44:15) Al: But yeah, a lot of it was just having to like sell the things you find around the farm. (0:44:21) Al: They used the four carner’s farm. (0:44:22) Kelly: No chickens? (0:44:25) Al: They used the four carner’s farm, so you get a little bit of everything. (0:44:29) Kelly: uh okay okay but like no interactions with people unless they like literally come to visit you that’s crazy but I feel like you know that’s like the it’s like nose locking yourself into stardew it’s fun yeah but stardew yay (0:44:35) Al: Yep. Yeah. (0:44:38) Al: Exactly, exactly, exactly. Lots of different ways to do it. (0:44:47) Al: So yeah, wild horseradish juice. (0:44:49) Al: I will probably never make it. (0:44:52) Kelly: I i will say who is drinking this I love horseradish I love spiciness I love (0:44:53) Al: Yeah. But just pure horseradish juice. (0:44:59) Kelly: bloody marys I love burning my sinuses I would never listen there’s been times in my life where my sinuses have been really bad and somebody was like hey if you put apple cider vinegar up your nose it’ll help and i’ve done that this sounds wild I would never do this I have never heard of horseradish as being described as sweet (0:45:05) Al: No! (0:45:10) Al: It’s description is a sweet nutritious beverage. (0:45:23) Al: I think there’s lots of sugar in that. (0:45:25) Kelly: Yeah, it has to be like really pickled or whatever. (0:45:29) Kelly: That’s crazy. (0:45:33) Al: The final news is we have a new game announced. We don’t have a lot about it. It’s called Echoes of the Plum Grove and it is coming to Kickstarter soon and its little tagline is “Build a thriving community across generations in this cosy historical farm simulation”. (0:45:51) Kelly: I think that’s pretty cute, like that’s a different idea because I feel like you know in a lot of these you can have a kid or something or a family but it doesn’t really go anywhere. (0:45:58) Kelly: Like I feel like this is very much so not how I play The Sims but how a lot of people play The Sims where they’ll make generational things and like the generations start to interact with each other and it’s like really interesting, it’s a very long-term way of doing it. (0:46:08) Al: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. A few games have kind of done a little bit of this, like, I think the new Harvest Moon does it where you can grow. You still stay as your same character, though. (0:46:29) Al: But there was… Oh, what was the… A Wonderful Life did this as well, didn’t it? You can play as your child at a certain point, I think. (0:46:39) Al: So yeah, there is apparently a lot more information on Steam that I didn’t notice until now. (0:46:43) Kelly: I did have to go open the Steam page because the Kickstarter basically had nothing on it. (0:46:44) Al: I will link that in the show notes. (0:46:47) Al: Yes, well, that’s the thing, that’s why I didn’t think we had a huge amount, but it is apparently on Steam. (0:46:53) Al: Well, the page is up on Steam, and it says it’s coming out in 2024, but I suspect (0:46:59) Kelly: I would also. I like his little cute like

Kev and Kelly do a second harvest of Graveyard Keeper Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:02:17: What Have We Been Up To 00:06:11: News 00:34:56: Graveyard Keeper 01:14:29: Outro Links Coral Island 1.0 Moonlight in Garland Early Access Sun Haven 1.3 Update Fabledom Fairytales & Community Update Moonstone Island Eerie Items DLC Lonesome Village Physical Edition Garden Story Translation Update Fantastic Haven Graveyard Keeper Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:32) Kevin: this is kelly ween this is kelly ween kelly ween kelly ween and in this show uh we talk about games that are filled with cottage gore yeah hi everyone welcome to the harvest season um with me today is kelly i’m kevin she’s actually gonna be here for well spoilers but then she’s gonna be on next week too she were on last week I bring it up because last year you were on for Halloween we did Cult of the Land. (0:00:47) Kelly: Hey. (0:00:57) Kelly: Oh, I forgot about that. (0:01:02) Kevin: And so, yeah, so, well, that’s exactly right. (0:01:03) Kelly: Is this just like my thing? (0:01:07) Kevin: Um, yeah, you’re Kelly our pumpkin queen. (0:01:10) Kevin: So here we are. (0:01:11) Kevin: Um, she’s all about this stuff. (0:01:14) Kevin: And so we are here today to talk about graveyard keeper, another, um, cottage gore game, um, technically this is a second harvest episode. (0:01:25) Kevin: Uh, Raschelle covered it way back. (0:01:28) Kevin: Like the first Halloween episode. (0:01:32) Kevin: And so I knew about it for years, but I didn’t get a chance to play it until recently. (0:01:37) Kevin: Um, and Kelly has played it significantly. (0:01:40) Kevin: Um, yeah. (0:01:40) Kelly: I only got out of it though last year. I was very new to it, so… (0:01:44) Kevin: Well, still more than I have. (0:01:49) Kevin: I’ve only played, uh, just a handful, relatively speaking. (0:01:51) Kevin: Um, but yeah, that’s, uh, we will get to that soon enough. (0:01:58) Kevin: Um, but before that, as always. (0:02:02) Kevin: Show notes and links and the transcripts are all available on the website for people to see and look at and on. (0:02:09) Kevin: Ooh, and whatnot. (0:02:11) Kevin: Um, and, uh, before the graveyard keeper will do news as always. (0:02:17) Kevin: And more importantly, what have you been up to Kelly? (0:02:19) Kevin: What have you been playing, watching, doing, yada, yada. (0:02:21) Kelly: Um, playing? I’ve really been slacking. I’ve been playing solitaire in Pokemon Go, which is not… It is, but I just… I get stuck playing it, and like, it’s fun, but I’m also like, I could be playing something better. (0:02:37) Kevin: Yeah, I mean it’s like comfort food sometimes it just it’s simple and I get it Exactly sometimes you just need a mindless game Okay, okay madman okay, I have not watched it. I’m familiar with it. That’s the one with That’s the one like 50s (0:02:37) Kelly: Um… [laughs] (0:02:39) Kelly: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It’s like, thoughtless. Um… (0:02:50) Kelly: But I just… (0:02:51) Kelly: I rewatched Mad Men, so that I think is more exciting. (0:03:05) Kelly: yeah like 60s advertising, yeah. (0:03:05) Kevin: add agency right (0:03:07) Kevin: 60s okay all right how how mm-hmm how long is it like the whole thing oh wow that’s longer than expected well that’s cool yeah sure (0:03:07) Kelly: uh I was a big fan when it came out. (0:03:12) Kelly: uh it’s like seven seasons I think? yeah seven seasons. (0:03:18) Kelly: yeah when I first ran I jumped ship like I think after season five. (0:03:25) Kelly: uh I mean it’s not the worst last two seasons but they’re not as good. (0:03:32) Kelly: Good. (0:03:34) Kevin: Um, let’s see, uh, well, I’ve last week we covered paleo pines actually kept up with it a good bit after There was a patch that dropped It’s been a big dinosaur for a week for me. I watched Jurassic Park this week again - (0:03:35) Kelly: What about you? What have you been up to? (0:03:52) Kevin: Boy, that movie’s real good good other than that Yesterday I cried that Super Mario wonder it just came out yesterday (0:04:04) Kevin: the newest one for this switch and It’s a good one Um, I’ll plug the rainbow road radio the other show I do with our mutual friend Alex We did our first look at it on that show. We just recorded and that’ll be dropping soon It’s fantastic it’s There’s I’m only a little bit in like on the second world but like every (0:04:23) Kelly: What do you think of it? (0:04:34) Kevin: level feels like it is introducing something new and different and I mean classic Mario is good you know 2d it’s your standard 2d Mario and whatnot so the gameplay is good and it’s just filled with all sorts of fun surprises and delights I’m going to spoil people on probably the best part that I’ve experienced so far there’s this level it’s like the second or third level you can do. (0:05:04) Kevin: There’s a bunch of piranha plants popping out of the pipes and you run and jump past them and whatnot. (0:05:09) Kevin: And then there’s the Wonder Flower which changes the level in different ways or whatnot. (0:05:15) Kevin: So when you touch the Wonder Flower, it starts this musical production and all the piranha plants just start singing. (0:05:23) Kevin: And it’s incredible, you entice everyone to at least look it up. (0:05:29) Kelly: I actually, I saw it on TikTok this morning and I was like, hmm, okay. (0:05:30) Kevin: It’s just so much fun. (0:05:34) Kevin: It’s so, because it just, right? (0:05:37) Kelly: Very much unexpected. (0:05:38) Kelly: I thought it was like somebody made it at first, like, you know, somebody edited it. (0:05:41) Kevin: Yep, it’s so out of the blue. (0:05:42) Kelly: But no, it was real. (0:05:45) Kevin: Yeah, no, it’s good. (0:05:48) Kevin: It’s really funny and yeah, the game just brings smiles to me every level with all sorts of unexpected twists and turns like that. (0:05:56) Kevin: So yeah, Mario Wonder, two thumbs up for me for sure. (0:05:59) Kevin: Like I said, people can go to Rainbow World Radio to hear more in-depth thoughts. (0:06:04) Kevin: But, yeah, that’s mostly what I’ve been up to. (0:06:08) Kevin: And now, with that, let’s hop on over to the news. (0:06:15) Kevin: We have, as always, a handful of, mostly game updates. (0:06:19) Kevin: Yeah, there’s a lot of game updates for some reason right now. (0:06:24) Kevin: So we’re going to start off talking about Coral Island. (0:06:30) Kevin: Okay, the one, okay, this is a big one. (0:06:34) Kevin: For people who may not remember, Coral Island is your standard Stardew-esque, well, I say standard. (0:06:40) Kevin: It’s got all your fixings, your farming, and it’s on an island, hence the name, right? (0:06:46) Kevin: So it has the tropical aesthetic and whatnot. (0:06:51) Kevin: But the big news is the 1.0 version is launching on November 14th, which is exciting. (0:06:58) Kevin: They have a trailer, and it looks expansive. (0:07:05) Kevin: There’s a lot going on. You have your farm, you can go underwater, you can meet mermaids, you can do your romancing, (0:07:12) Kevin: you can do, I think there’s even a race in there somewhere. All that good stuff. (0:07:18) Kevin: It looks very polished and like a 1.0 game. You can also… (0:07:22) Kelly: Yeah, I was going to say, it definitely looks like there’s, it looks a lot different than like the first, you know, clips I saw of it. (0:07:30) Kevin: Yep, absolutely. Yeah, it’s definitely a game now, for a better way of putting it. (0:07:36) Kelly: Yeah. (0:07:37) Kevin: And you can also dress up as a panda or dinosaur, so you know, there’s a lot going on there. You also get your little animal crossing, you can redecorate your house wherever you want. (0:07:49) Kevin: Oh, you can even have a baby in this, that’s wild. Yeah, that is dropping on November 14th, (0:07:58) Kevin: just a couple of weeks and it will be dropping on Steam, Xbox Series X/S, and PS5 they’re hoping for a 2024 release for a Switch version. Do you think you’ll try Coral Island or look in its general (0:08:12) Kelly: I think I might. I think it definitely looks really cute. I think it depends on if I’m playing anything, you know, when it comes out. I’m trying so hard not to, like, backlog myself. (0:08:22) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, that’s the hard part right too many games Yeah, no, that’s that’s a good idea I definitely have bought back So I respect that I think you can romance a mermaid so, you know, I’m not that going free I wonder how that’s gonna work. How are they gonna move up the land or vice versa? (0:08:43) Kevin: It’s a two-story floor but the bottom floor is underwater [laugh] (0:08:44) Kelly: just uh living in a two separate homes kind of situation there you go (0:08:52) Kevin: I’m down for that, um, yeah, right now it’s only 25 bucks, oh that’s not bad for this, that’s, that looks like a lot of content for 25 bucks, so, um, get excited. (0:09:06) Kevin: Um, oh, oh yeah, okay, sure, yep, that makes sense, that’s fair. (0:09:07) Kelly: Oh, it does say it’s going to release, I think, at $30, though. (0:09:11) Kelly: There’s a note about the price adjustment. (0:09:14) Kelly: But the diving looks really cool. (0:09:16) Kelly: I played a lot of Dave the Diver over the summer, (0:09:19) Kelly: so I feel like I’m still looking for games where I can go exploring like that. (0:09:19) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s good. (0:09:23) Kevin: Yeah, it does look good for like the animation stuff. (0:09:29) Kevin: I’m also a big fan of underwater type games and it looks very expansive down there. (0:09:35) Kevin: So yeah, there’s a post on Steam page with all the updates and everything. You guys can check it out. (0:09:44) Kevin: If you do have early access, it looks like there will be a save reset. (0:09:53) Kevin: So there is that. But, either way, November 14th, I look forward to it. I might actually check it out now. It looks pretty… (0:10:00) Kevin: So, next up we have Moonlight and Garland. (0:10:06) Kevin: I don’t know if this is a game announced, but it’s… (0:10:09) Kevin: Yeah, I guess it is, because they’re announcing their early access October 24th, which will probably already be out by the time people are listening to this. (0:10:18) Kevin: This is… here, let me read their, uh… (0:10:22) Kevin: The elevator pitch, where is it? (0:10:24) Kevin: A cozy open-ended life sim about finding your feet in the big city, decorate your apartment, make new friends, grow too many houseplants, and love your city life. (0:10:33) Kevin: Um, so it… yeah, it’s… it’s city-based, right? So you’re in an apartment, you’re not running a whole farm, but you can grow plants, you can have pets, um, make relationships and whatnot. (0:10:46) Kevin: The art style is… (0:10:48) Kelly: That’s the most realistic farming sim. (0:10:52) Kevin: » [LAUGH] (0:10:54) Kevin: » No, you’re right. (0:10:59) Kevin: » Yeah, yeah, Kelly can. (0:11:00) Kevin: Well, no, you’re in the house now, you’re not in an apartment anymore. (0:11:03) Kelly: No, but definitely, you know, went through that also, like, how do I keep my plans alive in my apartment when there’s no sun? (0:11:04) Kevin: But yeah, you know the feeling. (0:11:12) Kevin: Man, gosh, you’re super right. (0:11:16) Kevin: Boy, there’s a person showing an apartment with a lot of bunnies in their apartment, that seems difficult. (0:11:23) Kevin: You’re gonna have that many bunnies in an apartment. (0:11:26) Kevin: The art style is, it’s 2D pixelated, but it’s not Stardew-esque. (0:11:31) Kevin: It’s a little more cutesy than that, and I don’t know how to best describe it. (0:11:35) Kevin: And all the NPCs are kind of bobbing their head at the same time to some unknown beat, it is cute looking. (0:11:43) Kevin: And it’s only the early access, so I’m sure it’ll grow considerably more. (0:11:51) Kevin: That is, you know. (0:11:52) Kevin: October 23rd? 24th? I’m seeing two different days. (0:11:58) Kelly: I definitely want to follow up on it because just looking at the coming soon photo, it’s like why is there an iguana on the sidewalk? (0:12:06) Kevin: Hahaha! (0:12:06) Kelly: Can I have an iguana? (0:12:07) Kevin: Wait, you havin’ a guana? (0:12:08) Kelly: And then there’s also the bear man. (0:12:10) Kevin: Wait, wait, wait, wait, let me see, which one are you talkin’ about? (0:12:10) Kelly: I’m on the steam page, the early access release. (0:12:14) Kevin: What? (0:12:15) Kevin: Okay, okay, let me see… (0:12:17) Kelly: So in the coming soon photo that says steam early access, October 24th, whatever, wishlist now. (0:12:27) Kevin: Okay, okay. Oh, I’m looking at the wrong page. I would explain it wouldn’t it? Yup. There it is. Okay Yeah, I was looking the wrong page. There is a bear man. Why is there a bear man? (0:12:28) Kelly: There’s a bear man in the iguana, like do I get a pet iguana, do I get pet pigeons? (0:12:37) Kevin: Okay, I Okay, I want to mine a department full of pet iguanas that that I can do they’re pretty low-key There are pigeons. So, you know, definitely, you know, they’re hitting Oh, are they gonna have the the trash bags out on the sidewalk? (0:12:55) Kevin: Are they gonna go all in on the city? (0:12:57) Kevin: I don’t know if garland is a city name. It’s a city in texas. I know that much. (0:13:11) Kelly: Yeah. (laughs) (0:13:28) Kevin: But yeah, coming soon, early access. (0:13:31) Kevin: Next up, the clip side of early access, we got DLC patches, whatever you want to call it, for Sunhaven. (0:13:39) Kevin: This is the magical-esque farm where you do magic, there’s monsters, dragons, etc. (0:13:51) Kevin: It is patch 1.3, which includes new buildings. (0:13:58) Kevin: There are several that don’t look human, one is an angel, just straight up an angel. (0:14:04) Kevin: One guy is blue, he’s a moon attendant, whatever that means. (0:14:11) Kevin: You have to, they will be unlockable at some point, but that’s fascinating, dating non-humans like that. (0:14:20) Kevin: Oh, they will have a couple of other romancibles coming later this year. (0:14:28) Kevin: They will also have new farm structures and buildings. (0:14:32) Kevin: Greenhouses, silos, chicken coops, butterfly gardens, I like that. You don’t see that in farming games. (0:14:38) Kelly: That’s very unique, yeah. (0:14:40) Kevin: That’s cute, I love a butterfly garden. (0:14:44) Kevin: Monocyphoners, glorite siphoners, I don’t know what they are, workshops, and ticket counterfeiters. (0:14:54) Kevin: I don’t know what that means, but you’re counterfeiting. (0:14:57) Kevin: They’re up to crimes. I like that. (0:14:59) Kevin: I want to know why you can do crimes. (0:15:01) Kevin: Tickets for what? (0:15:03) Kevin: I don’t think they’re concert tickets. (0:15:05) Kevin: That’s fascinating. (0:15:07) Kevin: But yeah, there’s a whole bunch of other stuff. (0:15:10) Kelly: A lot of stuff. There’s like a ghost shed kit? I want a ghost shed. (0:15:11) Kevin: What does that mean? (0:15:18) Kevin: Do you keep ghosts in there? (0:15:19) Kelly: You grow them in there, maybe? (0:15:21) Kevin: I don’t… (0:15:23) Kevin: Oh wait, there are variations. (0:15:25) Kevin: variations because there’s pumpkin and mushroom. (0:15:27) Kevin: It looks like a ghost, oh I see it. (0:15:29) Kevin: Yeah, it has the eyes, the windows look like eyes and the glow, okay. (0:15:29) Kelly: Oh! (0:15:31) Kelly: That makes so much more sense because I was like oh mushroom shed. That’s just a shed where you grow mushrooms, you know That’s and then I just took the rest of them like that [laughs] (0:15:33) Kevin: Um, sh*t skins, yeah it does. (0:15:36) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, okay. (0:15:44) Kevin: Um, oh that’s the butterfly, wow those are big butterflies. (0:15:47) Kevin: Um, oh those are fascinating buildings. (0:15:49) Kevin: Um, let’s see, player birthdays. (0:15:53) Kevin: There is the birthday, birthday celebration. (0:15:57) Kevin: There is a huge pinata that you can hit, so I’m already down for this. (0:16:01) Kevin: Um, geez that’s like a full sized lion looking pinata, that’s great. (0:16:06) Kevin: Um, that’s uh, so all that’s included in the patch. (0:16:10) Kevin: Aside from that there will be DLC available. (0:16:13) Kevin: Um, all six different packs, trick or treat, spirit battle, rock and roll, cyber pop, monkey monkey, and dreamy ram. (0:16:22) Kevin: They’re all, they contain different items, packs, outfits, items, whatever. (0:16:27) Kevin: You guys can check the Steam page for details. (0:16:30) Kevin: Uh, for, yeah, there’s more details out there than we talked about, but, uh, yeah, that seems like a hefty patch. That seems like fun. (0:16:38) Kelly: Yeah, there’s a lot in this. This page goes on. (0:16:38) Kevin: Um, uh, yeah, it does. Um… (0:16:41) Kelly: And there’s even a coming soon, so… (0:16:43) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, they’re talking about future. (0:16:47) Kevin: Um, wow, new season of weather. Wow. (0:16:50) Kevin: Gloomy, what’s the difference between rainy and gloomy rain? I don’t know. (0:16:55) Kelly: Um, I think there’s I could I could understand that one (0:16:55) Kevin: But there you go All right, yeah, I guess. Okay, uh See like out here in Georgia. It’s a little more like rain. Not gloomy rain. Gloomy rains like hurricane force rain That’s what I think Wait no, yeah, okay. I get it (0:17:10) Kelly: No, I think gloomy rain is like when it’s kind of cold and like the sky is just dark and grey all day and it’s like just kind of constant. Like you could have nice rain, like you could have sunny rain, you could have like… (0:17:24) Kevin: Yeah, I do enjoy sun showers. (0:17:25) Kelly: It doesn’t have to be gloomy. (0:17:26) Kelly: Just like a normal rain shower isn’t always gloomy. (0:17:27) Kevin: You’re right. (0:17:28) Kevin: Yeah, no, you’re right, okay, um Yeah, so there’s all the whole bunch of stuff you guys can check that out Is that sorry? Yeah, when’s the release? I didn’t it’s it’s Oct they posted it October 20th It is oh, yeah, it’s already out on Steam. Yeah, so Now time this recording which means by the times you guys are listening. It is definitely available. That is again Sun haven (0:17:58) Kevin: Huh? Oh man, I’m just looking at the picture like a big tree man monster. I might have to check this out I like tree monsters. I I haven’t played a magic game in a minute. Well, I mean, well, maybe our keeper gentle notwithstanding Um, but it’s high, you know fantasy magic II I’m down for that. I could use that Yeah, uh, okay speaking of well, I don’t know more updates (0:18:04) Kelly: right? like i’m kind of like- i’m intrigued. i’m definitely very (0:18:17) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:18:18) Kelly: I feel like this is pretty different, yeah. (0:18:28) Kevin: We have so this is The what I refer to as not a city builder but a village builder because it’s medieval villagey themed But you’re helping build the whole village and run everything it is currently in early access and they are dropping a update for it I’m excited for this game myself. I’m gonna wait for the 1.0, but I love the art style. It’s cutesy and goofy (0:18:59) Kevin: and they are dropping all sorts of things in this update including a An encounter with a misunderstood Cyclops who’s very cute. His eye is just a dot His name is Eric one eye you can there will be a witch’s hut a red hooded girl Who’s looking for her grandma’s house? That that’s a speech. I don’t trust that at all. Oh, no, I don’t like that Hemisary gnomes (0:19:26) Kevin: It was seriously rare! (0:19:28) Kevin: And then a fawn with a really big nose and mustache. Oh, I like this guy. (0:19:33) Kevin: There’s a… and a few more. (0:19:36) Kevin: Well, those are fun characters that they’re adding. I love the art style and it looks really fun on these mythical, magical, whatever you want to call them. (0:19:46) Kevin: Cyclops and fawns. Gnomes. They’re fun looking characters. (0:19:48) Kelly: No, yeah, they look they look so cute. It looks very adorable (0:19:49) Kevin: Yeah. (0:19:51) Kevin: Yep. (0:19:53) Kevin: There are, oh gosh, 50 new world events and 30 new objectives. (0:19:58) Kevin: I don’t know what that means, but those are big numbers. (0:20:00) Kevin: Oh, there’s a magic bean. (0:20:03) Kevin: There’s monthly and yearly objectives. (0:20:06) Kevin: Hot weight. Positive and negative events. Oh, oh, they’re, they’re, they’re wild. Okay, I’m down for that. (0:20:15) Kevin: They have, let’s see, new buildings, a laborer guild. Oh, so you can hire better laborers. That’s fun. A bank. (0:20:24) Kevin: Oh, you can tax your villagers at different rates? (0:20:28) Kevin: Oh, that’s awesome. Grand theater? Oh, that’s a nice looking theater. (0:20:34) Kevin: Fisherman’s hut? Fish up stuff? All sorts of quality of life stuff? (0:20:40) Kevin: Well, there’s a lot of graphs in this game and things like that. I’m down for that. (0:20:45) Kevin: Yeah, that’s a lot of stuff coming. Like I said, I’m probably going to wait for 1.0 myself, but I’m glad that it’s coming along nicely. Yeah, that is again fabled. (0:20:57) Kelly: Is there any, is there any real estate or? (0:20:59) Kevin: Go. Oh, it is live. That update is already live as of this recording. (0:21:05) Kevin: So, yay. If anyone is playing the one point or the early access, first of all, (0:21:10) Kevin: somebody tell me if they are because I want to know about it. And it is out already. (0:21:15) Kevin: Um, yeah. All right. Good. Oh man. I’m just trying to fable them. It’s so goofy looking and the. (0:21:23) Kelly: Is there like an overall release date or no? (0:21:33) Kevin: uh not that i’m saying now um I have left here a quick glance um yeah so probably still a hot minute probably sometime in 2024 i’d hope but uh it’s not dead yet so i’ll take that let’s see next up we have uh moonstone island we have dlc for that this is which one’s this one okay all right we so we have dlc come (0:22:11) Kevin: Well, let me get to the details. Yeah, it’s the Halloween update right? That’s the key thing here. Um, (0:22:16) Kelly: I think so, ‘cause it’s for Halloween. (0:22:17) Kevin: We’ve got just a whole bunch of Spooky decors per their website gravestones skeletons a big old pumpkin house um Web’s five types of cobwebs. Oh Oh a rug. That’s just the tongue. That’s clever. I like that. Um, (0:22:38) Kevin: uh So yeah, there. (0:22:41) Kevin: Okay. (0:22:43) Kevin: Okay. (0:22:45) Kelly: I’m sorry, it’s actually not out yet. (0:22:45) Kevin: Okay. (0:22:47) Kelly: It’s not out, which I’m kinda… (0:22:47) Kevin: Um, there are n- some- the- so some of this stuff is DLC, which I’m assuming means purchasable separately, but there will be stuff included for free in the updates on the skeletons and things like that. (0:22:58) Kevin: Um, spirits are free- I don’t know what spirits are in the context of this game, but um, but they’re coming some out. (0:23:05) Kevin: Um, oh wow, I didn’t check- it’s got some good reviews. (0:23:09) Kevin: Um, I’ll have to check that out. (0:23:11) Kevin: Oh wow, what? Oh gosh, I forgot about- I’m remembering the game. (0:23:15) Kevin: There’s- you can fight like robots with a card battling system. (0:23:19) Kevin: They are… (0:23:21) Kevin: Yeah, oh man, oh gosh. (0:23:23) Kelly: These are really cute looking things, these creatures. (0:23:26) Kelly: I, yeah, like, I really like the style of it, yeah. (0:23:26) Kevin: This whole episode’s just me getting excited about games I forgot to get excited about. (0:23:31) Kevin: Um, as if I didn’t have enough already. (0:23:33) Kevin: There are really cute characters- there’s a fishbowl with legs. (0:23:36) Kevin: Um, I like that. (0:23:39) Kevin: that. And then at the end they just. (0:23:41) Kevin: Have a picture of a cat with like a sun hood. I don’t know but um, it’s very cute cat. (0:23:47) Kevin: That is Moonstone Island. That is already out, I believe. Why do we have a date for that? (0:23:52) Kelly: It is a very cute cat. (0:23:54) Kelly: The game is out, it says “NA” for them. (0:23:56) Kevin: Okay, thank you. But it says, while says it’s October 27th. I (0:24:06) Kevin: Couldn’t find that myself. Oh wait. Yeah, there it is. Yeah, October 27th. It’s only $4. (0:24:11) Kevin: Okay, that’s actually not bad at all and 10% off the first week. So there’s 46. (0:24:18) Kevin: Yeah, okay. Oh, it’s a new spirits must be a little monster buddies. That’s what it means. I’m excited. One looks like an apple with a worm through it. They’re just showing silhouettes. I’m just guessing. (0:24:23) Kelly: There you go. (0:24:29) Kevin: And yeah, I don’t know all that. Oh, I might check this out now. It’s a very cute game. (0:24:34) Kevin: Moonstone Island. Um Let’s see Next up we have oh, this isn’t an interesting (0:24:41) Kevin: one because boy, I never thought we’d see this this is Lonesome Village game that I notoriously advocate because the developers are from Mexico. It’s got the cute coyote as you saw puzzles in a tower. They’re coming out the fiscal edition. Pre-orders are live. You can check the show notes for the link. It is not from limited run games actually. A game a site called premium edition games. (0:25:11) Kevin: physical edition which includes all sorts of goodies including oh wow a full-color manual oh that’s exciting Wow a dog tag yeah they do um oh man a manual that’s exciting um yeah it’s great um yeah I I cover this game with Johnny, it was last year or year before, I don’t remember. (0:25:22) Kelly: Dude, the indie games always put so much into like what you get from… (0:25:32) Kelly: I love a manual. (0:25:33) Kelly: A full color manual too, that’s so nice. (0:25:41) Kevin: It’s a fun little game with lots of puzzles, and just very very cute little animal-closing-esque villagers. (0:25:47) Kelly: It looks really cute. The art style kind of reminds me of like Cult of the Lamb, but without the like paper feel. (0:25:47) Kevin: It’s actually funny because in the “story” of the game, so it’s called Lonesome Village because there’s a village and everyone’s kind of been turned to stone or disappeared. (0:26:03) Kevin: And the villains, they’re the people who did it very much look like Cult of the Lamb. (0:26:06) Kelly: Okay. (0:26:07) Kelly: Oh! Oh! It’s a cult! It’s a cult! What is happening here? (0:26:09) Kevin: Yeah. (0:26:12) Kevin: It came out around the time Cult of the Loom. (0:26:14) Kelly: I’m watching the trailer! Oh my god! (0:26:15) Kevin: It looks a lot like Cult of the Loom. (0:26:18) Kevin: The cult from Cult of the Loom. (0:26:20) Kevin: I think we made the joke in the episode. (0:26:22) Kevin: It came out around the same time too. (0:26:25) Kevin: Yep, yep, exactly. Yep. (0:26:26) Kelly: That’s so funny, ‘cause I was thinking it kinda like reminds me of the way they do the animals, like the style of the animals. (0:26:32) Kelly: But now that I’m watching this trailer, it’s like literally… (0:26:32) Kevin: It’s cult, it’s a lot like Cult of the Loom, Cult. (0:26:36) Kelly: That’s so funny. Oh, I gotta play this. (0:26:41) Kevin: Yeah, I have to check it out again. I still have it. (0:26:45) Kevin: It’s been a while. I’m sure they patched it up and done some stuff. (0:26:48) Kevin: ‘Cause I had a few rough edges back then, but I’m curious. (0:26:51) Kevin: I might do another look at it at some point. (0:26:54) Kevin: Because, yeah, props to–but, again, Mexican dev team, so I gotta shout them out. (0:26:59) Kevin: Ogre Pixel, that’s the name. (0:27:02) Kevin: But, yeah, that is a cute little logo of an Ogre–Pixillator Ogre. (0:27:07) Kevin: And again, this is the physical edition release. (0:27:11) Kevin: $40 for the premium edition, which seems to be their only version but includes all sorts of goodies. Um, I When do pre-orders end? I don’t know if I see that but the pre-orders are available now So you can check out the site and get it. Um Alright next up we have Not Garden Galaxy is perfect. We’re heading on the notes. That’s a different game that I was going to cover almost (0:27:42) Kevin: Garden story. That’s the one with the playable grape. That looks a lot like Stardew Valley a lot like It has It’s very cute though the grape that’s playable It is an update that has 11 new languages. Wow, that is a lot of languages I don’t know which ones they are. I just see the It’s out on Steam and switch already this update (0:28:09) Kevin: Very cool. Yeah, I actually don’t know what language is. I don’t know. (0:28:11) Kevin: Let’s see the details. But wow, that’s a big number. Good for them. (0:28:16) Kevin: Always props for making it more available for more people and whatnot. (0:28:19) Kevin: Yep. It is. The grape is very cute. (0:28:20) Kelly: Yeah, that’s always awesome. It really does look like stardew though. It’s cute though (0:28:25) Kevin: Next up, a new game announcement for as far as I can tell. (0:28:31) Kevin: This is called Fantastic Haven, which actually I find really intriguing. (0:28:36) Kevin: It’s the prime… (0:28:40) Kevin: Let me read the– (0:28:41) Kevin: The elevator pitch. (0:28:43) Kevin: So, this is a… (0:28:57) Kevin: Yeah, a Zook cheaper-esque type game, but they’re all magical creatures. (0:29:03) Kevin: Um, so you’re building big pens that look like circular homes more? (0:29:09) Kevin: Um, you alter the land and… (0:29:11) Kevin: It’s full 3D graphics, um, the… I think the actual designs of the creatures are actually quite nice, um… (0:29:18) Kevin: I like animals and critters and… (0:29:21) Kevin: …cheaping them and whatnot, so I’m already pretty interested, um, especially with the spin of… (0:29:26) Kevin: …like, they’re all magical creatures, I don’t see any other animals in here, I see like a griffin, uh… (0:29:31) Kelly: No, I’ve only seen, like, yeah, griffins and some weird frog with, like, horns and stuff. (0:29:31) Kevin: Yup, it’s a bullfrog, you get it? (0:29:36) Kelly: Ah, yes, yes, yes. (0:29:41) Kevin: The color shows a lot more, uh, it looks like you’re even busting some out of, like, cages and, like, carny… (0:29:46) Kevin: …you know, those carnival cages with the wheels, the cars, um… (0:29:51) Kevin: So that’s… that looks very fun, yeah, like I said, a lot of menus, probably, um… (0:29:57) Kevin: …very zookeeper tycoon-esque, um, but with the heavy, uh, magical fantasy paint over it, um… (0:30:06) Kevin: So that is right now the only release date planned is for Q2 of 2024 so it’ll probably be a minute but look forward to it I certainly am those are some fun designs yeah it’s it’s it’s charming enough for me I’m definitely interested um and then lastly okay this one I want to talk about in depth a little more because this one’s affecting me personally uh well actually there’s two me and my neck was night market once again got another patch that one. (0:30:41) Kevin: one point two point one oh whatever the it’s out on switch so you know it’s out on the steam version or whatever um so uh there’s a lot of quality of life stuff you can do with it. (0:30:48) Kevin: I’m not gonna go into the details because I don’t remember them but the other one I want to talk about because we just talked about last week is paleo pines. (0:30:53) Kevin: We just got yup okay so uh one point two point one oh whatever the it’s out on switch so you know it’s out on the steam version or whatever um so uh there’s a lot of quality of life stuff you can do with it. (0:30:54) Kelly: Which I still have to play, but I have not yet. (0:31:11) Kevin: We can change how quickly time passes in the game um oh gosh so one of the after I recorded last week with Spencer and we talked and played I was getting a lot of crashes. (0:31:23) Kevin: They had released a patch previously to fix some of that they said it was like a memory issue um but they were still experiencing it. (0:31:26) Kelly: Mmm. Okay. (0:31:31) Kevin: I felt like the more farther I got in the game the more I was crashed getting crashes uh they addressed some of that. (0:31:37) Kevin: that the game is still not free of crashes because (0:31:41) Kevin: we’ve been probably within an hour after downloading the update the game crashed on me again But it is better in general So they’re definitely aware and working on it at probably top of their list There is Also, there’s a whole list and you can check the show notes for them. I’m trying to look at which ones that are Stand out to me. Oh, there’s a cooking pot (0:31:46) Kelly: Oh, God. (0:32:07) Kevin: But it was weird because it was at some other guy’s house you have to go all the way to this other (0:32:12) Kevin: cook stuff but now you can buy one for your own ranch so that’s great oh here’s a fun one um so you can ride your dinosaurs because of course you can but the thing was whenever you got off of them they would just run away from you at max speed it was whole it was wild you could like try to stop them but um clearly not intended they have addressed that and and this definitely was an update needed and and it works um they will no longer run away from you when you get off of them (0:32:42) Kevin: um yes well luckily I think it was only in the ranch like your home base when it happened they wouldn’t leave you when you’re out in the wild oh my god that would be the worst yes but it’s still a pain because your character is a lot slower than the dinosaur so yeah yeah it’s just a pain having to go across the ranch to find them I mean it’s a pretty big ranch too um (0:32:44) Kelly: feeling it’s like okay nice I can I can get to the place I’m going to but once you’re there you’re stuck there now (0:32:56) Kelly: Oh, okay, okay, I was picturing like you, yeah, like you in the middle of like some field or something. (0:33:12) Kevin: uh there’s all sorts oh horse lock so there was a uh resource called forestwood that was needed for a lot of things it was pretty rare they increased the respawn on that that’s great um they did some ui improvements which were nice uh um lots of other things some oh there was a storage glitch spencer talked about think they fixed that um yeah just sort lots of little things (0:33:42) Kevin: because there were lots of little things that needed fixing um like I said still not 100 percent yeah yeah there is um where is it do they not have it um so there there is I read there is one glitch that they haven’t addressed yet um they know it’s an issue but for some reason at some point and it’s happened to me your game will reset to the first day of the game because there’s you know calendar like most farm. (0:34:12) Kevin: games and whatnot like you’ll keep all your stuff but somehow the calendar will just have reset to the very first game or very first day of the year which is wild um luckily I was able to get around that if you encounter it you can just reload an old save and it’s fine but um that was the wild glitch to see um but yeah that was I’m glad that came out because that addressed a lot of the little nitpicks Spencer and I had with the game and I’m sure (0:34:42) Kevin: they’re still working hard on that so good for you paleopines that update again is out already for switch and probably the other versions whatever versions it’s on all right so that was uh yeah the hearty helping of news and things but that’s now we’re doing that let’s talk about grave graveyard keeper yeah what’s what’s the tagline the most inaccurate medieval simulator isn’t that (0:35:09) Kelly: Something like that. I know inaccurate is involved of [laugh] (0:35:14) Kevin: Hold on let me look at it. Um the most inaccurate cemetery simulation game. Okay. Yeah, I think that’s what it is Okay Well Yeah, so again, um It and this game’s been up for years at this point. Um, I’ll covered it years ago Yeah. Yeah, there you go. That’s cute (0:35:24) Kelly: Oh, the most inaccurate medieval, yeah, cemetery sim of the year. (0:35:36) Kelly: Uh, they had their five year anniversary actually in August. (0:35:42) Kevin: There’s a bunch of DLC I bought the (0:35:44) Kevin: version with all the DLC I don’t know what the base game hazard does not have. (0:35:48) Kevin: I’ve only played it for an afternoon or two. I don’t think I’ve reached any of the DLC portions yet probably. (0:35:49) Kelly: Oh, did you? Okay. (0:35:57) Kevin: They’re all parody names there’s a stranger sins there’s breaking something (0:35:57) Kelly: Um, I’m trying to remember. I know the DLC… (0:35:59) Kelly: Yes, because there’s better save soul. (0:36:04) Kelly: Um, I did look into getting them, but I didn’t- I didn’t, because I think it was like- (0:36:11) Kelly: I feel like there’s- there’s so much going on in this game already. (0:36:14) Kevin: Even if it is, there’s a lot going on. (0:36:14) Kelly: Uh, that I was very happy to not have the added, um, things that like go along with the better save soul one. I heard that gets a lot of pretty tedious. (0:36:24) Kevin: Yeah, heh heh heh. (0:36:25) Kevin: Better save solo, that’s good. (0:36:29) Kevin: I don’t think that one’s out on Switch. (0:36:31) Kevin: That’s it? I don’t know if that one’s out on Switch. (0:36:32) Kelly: Oh, are you playing on Switch? I am not gonna lie. I have not. (0:36:36) Kelly: I’ve been so bad at playing my Switch this year. (0:36:44) Kevin: But, I mean, that’s fine, like, I know that the Switch port gets black for a good reason. (0:36:55) Kevin: There’s a Switch tax for sure, so I don’t blame you. (0:36:57) Kevin: But hey, at least we can compare notes on that. (0:37:00) Kevin: If you played on Steam, I would guess? (0:37:10) Kevin: Um, but okay, so let’s okay, let’s the elevator pitch Okay, first of all, I didn’t expect that this game’s an isekai That I didn’t expect at all so for people unfamiliar with isekai that is a genre of anime primarily where a character wakes up in a simulated often fantasy type world (0:37:38) Kevin: Sword Art Online and just… (0:37:40) Kevin: …other ones. It’s a whole trope now. (0:37:42) Kevin: Umm… (0:37:43) Kelly: I was gonna say it breaks the, you know, inherited your grandpa’s farm trope though. (0:37:44) Kevin: … (0:37:46) Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. (0:37:48) Kevin: You’re just a guy who gets hit by a car cause he’s looking at his phone. (0:37:52) Kevin: Don’t look at your phone when crossing the streets. (0:37:54) Kevin: It’s dark in the rain, people. (0:37:56) Kevin: It’s not recommended. (0:37:58) Kevin: And he wakes… (0:37:59) Kelly: Poor dude’s just trying to give back to his girlfriend or whatever. (0:38:00) Kevin: …yeah, his love, as he says, and… (0:38:03) Kevin: …he wakes up in a graveyard area and… (0:38:08) Kevin: There’s a talking skull that talks to you. (0:38:10) Kevin: And he says, “Hey, welcome. You’re the graveyard keeper, I guess.” (0:38:13) Kevin: Um, more or less, and sure enough, you’re put in charge of this graveyard in this little medieval village area. (0:38:23) Kevin: And you’re trying to figure out how to get back home while managing the graveyard and all the stuff people are asking you. (0:38:32) Kevin: Because, of course, people are going to ask you to do everything around here. (0:38:35) Kevin: Uh… (0:38:36) Kelly: I mean, what would a game be without everybody asking you to do all these things? (0:38:40) Kevin: Right, right. (0:38:42) Kevin: Um, so, okay, hell, you beat the game, correct? What are your overall impressions? (0:38:50) Kelly: I really liked the game. I thought it was a lot of fun. I think there’s a lot of stuff to do, (0:38:57) Kelly: like it can get a bit overwhelming, but I think, you know, it definitely involves, you know, (0:38:59) Kevin: Boy does it. (0:39:01) Kevin: Oh. Yep. (0:39:04) Kelly: looking things up online. But I will say there is an issue with how intuitive it is. (0:39:08) Kevin: Yep. (0:39:10) Kevin: Yep. (0:39:12) Kelly: I think I could have been further along in my gameplay if I understood some of the (0:39:20) Kelly: panics. A lot better. And I will say on that note, it was not always easy to find the answers on the internet. So that made it even worse. And sometimes if you did find an answer, (0:39:21) Kevin: Yep. Okay, so yeah, so. Mm-hmm. (0:39:31) Kevin: Oh yeah, the double whammy, oh yeah. (0:39:35) Kevin: Yup, it’s wild. (0:39:38) Kelly: it was from like 2018, so something got patched or didn’t work like that anymore. (0:39:46) Kelly: So, that was my biggest issue. (0:39:48) Kelly: Did it stop me from putting in, you know, (0:39:50) Kelly: 90 hours, I think, or whatever into the game? (0:39:55) Kelly: No, but there were definitely moments where I was frustrated. (0:39:59) Kelly: Or, like, again, just like, I was playing the game, I was enjoying myself, (0:40:03) Kelly: but I could have been further along than what I was. (0:40:07) Kevin: Yeah, um, okay. Mm-hmm Okay, yeah for sure they’re just Yeah, absolutely. Um, so for comparison I got the game Thursday I think today’s like Saturday. So two days ago So I’ve only played for and Mario wonder so I didn’t play as much yesterday So I played the game for an afternoon and then some um, I like the game a lot. Um, (0:40:07) Kelly: And not even in, like, a micromanagy, like, you know, whatever kind of way. (0:40:13) Kelly: Like, in, like, a… (0:40:15) Kelly: It would have made more sense. (0:40:26) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:40:37) Kevin: I think it is Almost minecrafty and how open it is and crafting and everything But I fully agree like that’s my biggest criticism there’s a lot that is not intuitive Or explained well Yep, yep, yep, I’m sure (0:40:50) Kelly: you haven’t even gotten or opened a lot of the, you know, different aspects of the game yet at this point, I’m sure, because it really expands. It expands a lot. There is a lot to do. There is so (0:41:03) Kevin: But I can imagine… I mean I see the skill tree. (0:41:07) Kevin: So… I can… I can… she’s… I can… (0:41:12) Kevin: So there’s a skill tree in this game, right? You have to get points to unlock your skills. (0:41:18) Kevin: And you can see how far it goes. And yes, I can see there’s a lot to unlock and do and whatnot. (0:41:24) Kevin: But… I think the skill tree is probably where I can direct my first criticism. (0:41:32) Kevin: Because there’s three types of points, whatever you want to call them. (0:41:37) Kevin: Red, green, and blue, and you need different amounts of each for unlocking each new skill, which lets you craft new things or do new things, whatnot. (0:41:46) Kevin: Um, the red and green work hard to get, but the blue, the blue is killing me because I hit a point where I had like one blue point overall and couldn’t figure out how to get more. (0:41:56) Kelly: You run out of them. (0:41:58) Kevin: Yeah. (0:41:59) Kelly: There’s a certain point where the game just stops you from getting more for a bit. (0:42:02) Kevin: Really? Wow. (0:42:04) Kelly: Not like stops you. (0:42:06) Kelly: There’s definitely a roadblock, I would say. (0:42:11) Kevin: - Yeah, okay. (0:42:14) Kelly: I struggled with that for so long. (0:42:17) Kelly: And then, of course, at a certain point, it’s like, oh. (0:42:20) Kelly: Now, actually, you’re out of red. (0:42:23) Kelly: Or now you’re out of green or whatever. (0:42:25) Kelly: And it’s like, oh, something that I– (0:42:26) Kelly: so I think one of them is done from manual labor, red, I think. (0:42:27) Kevin: yep yep your manufacturing and things yeah red okay oh you don’t get read from them (0:42:34) Kelly: Yeah, so at a certain point, you get helper zombies that you can assign to do things. (0:42:42) Kelly: So you’re no longer getting the red from those things that you would be getting red from. (0:42:47) Kelly: So it definitely makes you have to stop and think and watch everything. (0:42:56) Kevin: Yup, absolutely, um, it’s a very resource-manage-y heavy game and that includes your skill points or whatever you want to call them. (0:43:07) Kevin: That’s fascinating. (0:43:09) Kevin: Like I can see the blue are going to be very scarce. (0:43:11) Kelly: But I think it’s interesting because it does… (0:43:13) Kelly: Sorry, I was gonna say it just it does impact, I feel like, (0:43:18) Kelly: what you’re trying to do in that day. Because if you’re trying to get blue points… (0:43:19) Kevin: Right. Yeah, exactly. (0:43:22) Kevin: The nice thing, one of the nicest things about the game, (0:43:26) Kevin: there’s no real pressure. (0:43:28) Kevin: There’s no seasons or years or whatever. (0:43:31) Kevin: There’s a week. (0:43:32) Kevin: So like in six, seven, I don’t remember how long, how many days, (0:43:36) Kevin: but that’s the worst that you have to wait. (0:43:37) Kelly: It’s seven days Which and I liked I like I really like the fact that there was no pressure on the seasons or When you finished the game even or anything like that. I also liked the Each day is a different person You have to make sure that you’re getting the things you need to have done before that day so you can go and deal with that person (0:43:38) Kevin: Yep. Which go by quickly. (0:43:42) Kevin: Yep. (0:43:57) Kevin: Yep. (0:43:57) Kevin: Yep. (0:44:03) Kevin: Yep, he just gotta wait until… (0:44:03) Kelly: Because there’s definitely some weeks where if you miss that person you’re screwed (0:44:07) Kelly: Yup. And there is something later on in the game, you know, when things have slowed down in certain areas and you’re just like waiting for that one day where you can fast forward. (0:44:10) Kevin: Until that point. (0:44:21) Kelly: Yes, but I do actually want to say on that point, I think this is very interesting because there is no pause button. There’s no space yet. (0:44:21) Kevin: Yeah, sure that makes sense. Yeah, you can fast-forward at any point you should go to sleep and (0:44:32) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, even if you’re in your menus, time goes on. (0:44:37) Kelly: Yeah, you have to literally like go to the exit screen or whatever. Like the main menu page. (0:44:41) Kevin: Yeah Yep Yep, so if you’re looking through your notes here You know hemming and hawing at a menu thinking about where you want to spend your points that happened to me just just today When I was playing I cuz I finally got some blue points today. And so I was just like agonizing over I wanted where I wanted to spend them and before when I got out of the menu Oh, it’s evening already. Cool. The whole day’s [laughter] (0:44:43) Kelly: There’s a certain page that stops time, but the rest of them don’t. (0:44:48) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:45:09) Kelly: Yep. (0:45:11) Kelly: Yep. (0:45:12) Kevin: But they’re the kind of I mean, I don’t know if it was their intent or not But the way to combat that it’s very easy to reroll your did your save like you own there’s no autosave It just saves when you go when you wake up So most of the time you can say you’re pretty much have a safe at the start of the date or start of the day, excuse me, and You can just reload to that and have a plan or save yourself (0:45:23) Kelly: Oh, yes. (0:45:25) Kelly: Yes. (0:45:29) Kelly: I would just quit the game. (0:45:32) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:45:40) Kelly: Oh yeah, no, there was many times where I would either just, you would see like the NPC walking away from their post, and I would have to go and reset the game and then do the day over and make sure I got there early enough. (0:45:47) Kevin: Oh my gosh. (0:45:50) Kevin: Yep. (0:45:52) Kevin: Oh my gosh. (0:45:54) Kevin: That happened to me twice already when I go down and Snake is running away and like, “No, I need to talk to you, Snake.” (0:46:02) Kelly: oh god he’s so annoying he’s so annoying for the skill points though I think it’s like kind of fun like there’s some weird ones you can choose from uh-huh (0:46:05) Kevin: He is. (0:46:08) Kevin: He is. (0:46:11) Kevin: Yeah. (0:46:13) Kevin: Overall, I’m a big fan of the Skilled Trees, umm… (0:46:17) Kevin: Because you can very much pick and choose if you want to focus on certain areas and whatnot. (0:46:23) Kevin: Umm, obviously like… (0:46:25) Kevin: To get green points, that’s the farming stuff, so you do want to invest in some of that stuff. (0:46:30) Kevin: Umm, but like, early on you can really get through a lot of the wood and metalworking stuff. (0:46:37) Kevin: Umm, and again, with almost no pressure on when to do it, umm, it’s… (0:46:42) Kevin: It’s very open and you’re very free to pick and choose as you want. (0:46:46) Kevin: You know, (0:46:47) Kevin: the limitations of how many skill points you actually have notwithstanding. (0:46:52) Kevin: I think it is a clever system. (0:46:54) Kevin: And because you get to see what’s coming ahead, that helps you plan that too. (0:47:00) Kevin: I really like that. (0:47:01) Kelly: Yes, definitely. (0:47:01) Kevin: Um… (0:47:02) Kelly: There was definitely some areas in the skill tree though where I did not understand what, (0:47:09) Kelly: like if you unlocked something, (0:47:12) Kelly: I didn’t understand how to access it afterwards, (0:47:15) Kelly: which then led to me diving down a rabbit hole, (0:47:18) Kelly: trying to figure it out. (0:47:18) Kevin: Yeah, sometimes that’s a little unclear most of the time When you look at the skill tree thing it says okay, you can craft at this bench or that bench or whatever But some are not very clear. Yeah Some aren’t super clear. Yeah But I do agree (0:47:27) Kelly: Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, it definitely is pretty good. (0:47:30) Kelly: It’s pretty good. (0:47:34) Kelly: Can we talk about the main premise of the game, which I think is the most weird and fun part is, you know, collecting your corpses? (0:47:41) Kevin: Yeah, the it’s definitely yeah the differentiator the the the graveyard itself. Yeah, let’s talk about that (0:47:43) Kelly: Because you are, you are quite literally the graveyard keeper. So you get a (0:47:54) Kelly: Annoyed little donkey that delivers corpses to you. (0:47:56) Kevin: I’m red donkey from a leftist stable [laughter] (0:47:57) Kelly: And oh my god, there was so many times where I would hear that bell and just be so far away from home. (0:48:06) Kelly: And just go running because it’s like the second you hear that bell that corpse starts, you know, deteriorating. (0:48:12) Kevin: Yep Yeah, that’s that’s an interesting aspect that the forps is deteriorate and it affects a lot of things And yeah, they’re kind of deliver just at random times. It feels like I didn’t detect any pattern Umm… (0:48:22) Kelly: Yeah. (0:48:23) Kelly: Yes. (0:48:27) Kelly: No, they can definitely be whenever. (0:48:31) Kelly: And they can pile up too. (0:48:34) Kevin: Oh my gosh, I don’t think I’ve had that happen yet, but I could see that happening. (0:48:35) Kelly: Yeah, no, they can definitely pile up. (0:48:43) Kelly: I mean, this game goes in depth. (0:48:48) Kelly: I have freezers for bodies. (0:48:53) Kelly: So, you know, it’s like you are literally treating it like a morgue, like… (0:48:57) Kelly: But I think one of the most fun parts is removing the organs, (0:49:03) Kelly: but also the most hard to understand initially. (0:49:06) Kevin: Right, so yeah, let’s talk about that because as very early on you’re introduced that you have options to do the corpse One you can bury them in your graveyard. It has a prettiness rating you how you decorate it Well, you bury them and whatnot You can even just throw it in the river or cremate them or You can take them into your morgan Do a little bisection, you know see what you can poke around and find in there pull out a skull some blood What? (0:49:36) Kevin: A bit of flesh. (0:49:38) Kevin: It’s fascinating that they gave you this option. (0:49:43) Kevin: There’s… (0:49:44) Kevin: I haven’t gotten too in-depth with the body parts. (0:49:47) Kelly: So, I’ll explain it. It’s a lot. (0:49:51) Kelly: Basically, your corpse, so when you bury a corpse, you want it to be as high rated as possible because it impacts your cemeteries overall like beauty rating, (0:50:05) Kelly: which is a whole different aspect. (0:50:07) Kelly: And that’s a big part of the game because it kind of roadblocks you if you don’t keep up with it. (0:50:11) Kelly: But so you want to make sure you’re removing. (0:50:14) Kelly: If you remove certain organs, it makes your corpses… (0:50:17) Kelly: …that’s how you can remove them. (0:50:19) Kelly: If you remove other organs, it decreases it, and they don’t really tell you at first. (0:50:23) Kelly: You have to unlock skills on the skill tree… (0:50:25) Kelly: …that tell you. (0:50:25) Kevin: Yeah, I mean they tell you like there’s bad organs, but you don’t you can’t tell which ones until you go get that later (0:50:29) Kelly: Yes. Yes. (0:50:34) Kelly: And so you can remove organs, and you can also try to put the organ back. (0:50:38) K

Unlock the mystifying world of cryptocurrencies and blockchain in this enlightening episode of Count Me In. Join our guest host Kelly Richmond Pope, accounting Professor and author, as she speaks with Lamont Black, an Associate Professor of Finance at Napoli University.  They navigate us through the complexities of blockchain technology, its relevance to accounting and financial services, and the turbulent landscape of cryptocurrency exchanges. Lamont takes a deep dive into how blockchain serves as the foundation of cryptocurrencies, elaborates on its inherent security and transparency, and paints a picture of its significant role in the future of digital commerce. We will also unpack the rise and fall of crypto prices, the risks involved, and how to safely engage with cryptocurrency exchanges. No matter whether you're a finance professional grappling with the challenges of a rapidly digitizing economy, or a curious listener wanting to unravel the world of cryptocurrency, this episode is an invaluable resource.Connect with Lamont and Kelly: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lamontblack/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/kelly-richmond-pope-cpa-83689a5/ Full Episode Transcript:Adam:            Welcome to another enlightening episode of Count Me In. Where we delve into the pressing issues shaping our world and the business landscape. Today, we have the privilege of hearing a wonderful conversation between our guest host, Kelly Richmond Pope, accounting professor and author, and Lamont Black, an Associate Professor of Finance at DePaul University. They discuss an issue that is at the forefront of finance innovation; cryptocurrencies and blockchain technology. Lamont brings his vast knowledge and expert insights to help demystify these complex topics and explain their relevance to the finance industry. So whether you're a CFO, a controller, a finance professional, or simply a curious listener, prepare for a deep dive exploration into the world of blockchain and cryptocurrencies. Let's get started. Kelly:              So Lamont, thank you so much for joining me, today. And if you could start by just introducing who you are. Lamont:         So I'm an associate professor of finance in the Driehaus College of Business at the DePaul University. So I'm one of your colleagues. Kelly:              You are one of my colleagues. And, so, I want to welcome you to the IMA podcast series. And I have been working with the IMA, a little over a year. Working in research and thought leadership about ethics, corporate governance, risk, and you know my favorite love, fraud. And as we watch the news, read the news, what has just been in the news, so much, in the past, I'd say 18 months, is this really weird word called cryptocurrency.  And when I came to you, originally, about trying to understand what in the world is cryptocurrency. What you shared with me was how important it was to understand blockchain. And what I want to do, today, is have you really break down the importance of understanding blockchain. Because what I think the world is getting a little scared about is when you keep hearing about cryptocurrency, these exchanges that are falling apart. And, I think, everybody is really skeptical of this concept of cryptocurrency. But what I know you feel is, though, people might be scared of that. But you still need to understand the soundness and the value of the underlying technology, which is called blockchain. So could you tell us a little bit about what blockchain is and why we need to know about it as managerial accountants? Lamont:         Yes, so blockchain is the platform behind cryptocurrency. And blockchain is a technology, that, I think, everyone should be trying to understand. It's really a system of shared record keeping. So if you think about how we now live, in the information age, most of what we do is involving data. That data is being stored and shared using different systems, today. Whether that's on the cloud or other types of servers, and the blockchain is a way of sharing information. So that it's recorded on a shared ledger. So you can really think of blockchain as a system of accounting. And what makes it different is that rather than these ledgers being held in a private form. Different ledgers on different institutions that, then, have to communicate, blockchain cuts across all those silos. It's a way of recording information across an entire network. Sharing that information with the network, that makes it very secure, very transparent, and very efficient for sharing information.  So as we move deeper and deeper into the digital economy and e-commerce. I think every organization should be trying to understand how do we store and share information on the internet. I think blockchain is likely that next platform. And, so, even in the world of accounting, this is where things are likely headed. Kelly:              So that's a great explanation, and it really makes me feel a lot more comfortable in understanding that. Although, I hear all this craziness about cryptocurrency, and cryptocurrency is just where you shouldn't put your money. You've made me feel a lot more comfortable about why I need to understand blockchain. But let me digress, for a second, what in the world is going on with all that we hear about FTX, and the collapse of these exchanges? What is that conversation even about? And how does that affect or how should it affect our opinion of blockchain? Lamont:         Yes, so cryptocurrency is the money that is transferred across public blockchains like Bitcoin and Ethereum. And, so, people can own Bitcoin and Ethereum as digital assets, and crypto prices ran up, dramatically, during COVID. There are different arguments for why that occurred.  But one of them would be the amount of monetary stimulus. As people had all these different sources of income coming in. Let's say through stimulus checks in the form of fiscal stimulus, that money flowing into the economy. A lot of that ended up in crypto. And, so, Bitcoin almost reached $70,000 for one Bitcoin by late 2021. And as we moved into this year and our economy started to slow, inflation started to rise, largely as an outcome of COVID, crypto prices started to collapse.  Now, some people focus on the collapse of the crypto market as being something unique. But I just would point out that the stock market also entered bear market territory in the first half of this year, and in particular, tech stocks. So tech stocks are very risky. And, so, speculative assets during an economic slowdown, those prices tend to fall the most.  I view crypto as a form of technology. It's the frontier of technology. So, to me, it's no surprise that as risky assets have sold off this year, crypto has gotten hit the hardest. Now, as it relates to the exchanges, that's really been the problem this year. Because most people when they buy crypto, they buy it on an exchange like Coinbase, here in the US, or FTX, which was an offshore exchange headquartered in the Bahamas.  Now, many people wanted to jump on the crypto bandwagon, especially, as prices were rising. And, so, a lot of people were investing their money in exchanges like FTX. But one thing that people didn't fully appreciate, in this period of time, is when you own crypto on an exchange, you don't actually own the crypto itself. It's really being held on your behalf. And, so, FTX is what's called a centralized exchange.  When a centralized exchange fails or goes bankrupt, you're going to lose your money. They're going to freeze those redemptions. You're not going to be able to get it back. And, so, now, I think a lot of the fear around cryptocurrency is not just in the price volatility, it's also the fact that you could lose everything. And, so, I think crypto does have a PR problem, now, of people just being hesitant and confused about where all this is headed. Kelly:              Well, and I think what's interesting, about our conversation, is as managerial accountants, as CFOs, as controllers, as finance professionals. We could be interacting with clients and or in an organization that either embraces blockchain or accepts cryptocurrency. At the way that they handle transactions.  And, so, it's really important for us to understand some of these nuances. And my question to you is this how do I know what exchange I should engage with if I do want to purchase cryptocurrency? Because I do have to use an exchange, correct? That's the only way. Lamont:         Yes, it's the only way to enter the crypto ecosystem. So if you think of cryptocurrency as a currency, a form of money, then, it's like a foreign currency. If you want to buy euros with dollars, or if you want to bring the euros back into dollars, there's an exchange rate.  And, so, the price of crypto is really an exchange rate between dollars and crypto. And the U.S. money, the dollar, is a fiat currency. And there's a long history behind that term but it, basically, means that we are no longer on the gold standard. So the U.S. dollar is not backed by anything physical. It is a fiat currency.  But in order to buy crypto, you have to go through something called a fiat on-ramp. Because you're basically buying crypto with U.S. dollars. You can't do that just anywhere. You have to go through one of these exchanges, which is why that's the starting point for most people.  But one key point that I would like to highlight is you don't have to keep your funds on that exchange. And, so, the exchange that I typically use to buy crypto is Coinbase. Because Coinbase is a U.S.-headquartered institution. It's publicly traded on the U.S. stock market. Highly regulated by the SEC. And, so, it's, relative to FTX, a little bit safer but not totally safe.  There could be a run on Coinbase as well. But once you own crypto on Coinbase, you then have several options. You could move that money into something called a digital wallet. And what makes a digital wallet different from an exchange is that you, then, own the crypto. You manage what's called the private key. There's no risk of bankruptcy for some type of exchange because it's like money in your wallet. Just like U.S. dollars in a physical wallet, this is crypto in a digital wallet. You own it, you manage it, and so it protects you from some of those types of risks. Kelly:              For the first time, in my life, I understand everything you're saying. Lamont:         That's great. Kelly:              But you know what, how you described the exchange is making transactions on your behalf versus the digital wallet. I understand it because I actually own some crypto. Yes, I'm the accountant that owns some crypto. And let me tell you a little bit about the way Lamont and I met, first. Because, yes, we are colleagues at DePaul University in Chicago, but we also were in a movie together. And we were in a movie about a fast-appreciating asset, at that time, called HEX.  And, so, there was this production company that was doing a documentary about this gentleman by the name of Richard Hart. And Lamont and I actually flew out to the south of Spain to interview, can you believe we did this Lamont? Interview Richard Hart at this undisclosed mansion on the cliff of a mountain, on the side of a mountain. And I was completely skeptical of everything crypto. I didn't have the understanding that, of course, you had Lamont.  But it was fascinating to watch you go back and forth. You were a finance superhero going back and forth with this gentleman, about this cryptocurrency that he created. So my question to you is this; when we did this project, together, and all that you know about blockchain, all that you know about crypto. And then there's this new created currency that this gentleman started, what was your opinion of that experience? What was your opinion of HEX, at the time? Lamont:         Well, that was a pretty crazy experience. But it was great working with you on that. So I think what's hard for a lot of people, with cryptocurrency, is that there are so many of them. So I think everyone's now heard of Bitcoin. Most people have now heard of Ethereum or Ether. Those are the two largest cryptocurrencies. But if you go to a site like coinmarketcap.com you can see that there are now over 10,000 cryptocurrencies. And, so, people wonder, "Well, where should I invest?" "What's right, what's wrong?" "What's legit?" "What's a scam?" And I would acknowledge that there are a lot of cryptocurrencies that are a scam. That's why I don't encourage people to just follow hot tips. You should never be looking for some crypto that no one's ever heard of, but you think is going to pump for 100 X over five days or whatever. You should just focus on the core ones like Bitcoin and Ethereum.  But this documentary, we worked on, was for a particular cryptocurrency called HEX. Which is really an application, a project, built on Ethereum. And, so, what's also important to understand with cryptocurrency is you have your native tokens that trade on the blockchain itself, like Bitcoin or Ether on Ethereum.  But HEX is a project built on Ethereum that can create its own token, on top of the Ether token. And that project, the documentary, was really about is this project legitimate or not? And we were brought in, as the skeptics, to try and ask some hard questions. And I think we ended up in a place where we were not fully convinced that this was the future of cryptocurrency. I'm a big fan of this space. I do think cryptocurrency has a lot of potential still. But for some of these individual projects there's still a lot of question marks.Kelly:              Now, when you go in and you do your consulting with organizations. What do you find to be the questions that the employee population may have or the executives may have? Lamont:         Yes, so I'm in the finance department, in the financial services area. And, so, a lot of the firms that I work with are financial institutions, banks, credit unions. Trying to understand what does this mean for the future of money and banking, which is actually how I got into this space. So, as a quick background, I'm a former economist from The Federal Reserve. I was there through the financial crisis. And, so, my background is very much in risk and regulation.  But when I left The Fed to join DePaul and started teaching money and banking back in 2013. It was my students who started asking me about Bitcoin. And that started a whole journey, for me, about is Bitcoin money? And I'm now convinced that it is an important chapter in the evolution of money.  Whether Bitcoin itself will become a common means of payment, it's still yet to be seen. But money is digitizing and assets are digitizing, I think everyone would agree with that. And, so, the financial institutions that I work with are often inviting me in to speak to their board of directors, to speak to the leadership team. To talk about strategy and really strategic risk.  Could this emerging ecosystem of crypto and blockchain, potentially, disrupt traditional financial services? If people start using blockchain as a peer-to-peer payment system, that could disintermediate banks and credits from the payment network and the payment system. To the extent that people are now able to get loans on a blockchain. So decentralized finance, or DeFi, is an entire financial system that's being built on the blockchain network.  And, so, banks and credit unions are looking at this, trying to figure out do they have a role to play in the future of this technology? Because the original vision for crypto was replacing banks, even money without governments. But with the importance of regulation, with the importance of ethics and society. What we're likely going to see is an integration between traditional finance and decentralized finance. And banks and credit unions are going to have a very important role to play at that intersection. Kelly:              Interesting. Well, Lamont, this has been great. What I'm also excited about is we are working on a paper, together, in conjunction with, of course, the IMA, about the management, the risk of blockchain and what managerial accountants and finance professionals need to know about this space. So I hope that everyone that listens to our conversation, today, also reads the paper that we write because it's eye-opening.  I know that I've learned so much from working with you and listening to you. I did purchase a little snippet of HEX when we were doing that project, of course, it is almost worthless at this point. So I don't know that I am a big cryptocurrency cheerleader, yet.  But I do have a respect for blockchain and understand that it is something that we need to know. Like you said, I don't know where we'll be five, 10 years from now, but I do want to make sure that I am current. And this sounds like it could be a big change.  Something that you said in one of the answers to the questions, is you talked about the idea that blockchain is this decentralized, peer-to-peer type process. And I want to focus on the word decentralized. Because one thing that you said, when you talked about it being decentralized, is you then said that you used Coinbase. Which Coinbase was highly regulated, had oversight by the SEC.  And, so, what I took from your comments is the point of this integration piece is probably what makes most people feel confident, more confident and more secure. Because there are pros and cons about something that's decentralized. The pro is you don't have this third-party intermediary. But the con is you don't have the regulatory body that may give a sense of security and integrity to the data that a lot of us, especially accountants, are used to filling.  So I like how you talked about this idea of the integration of the two as opposed to the replacement of one. And that resonated with me because for people like me who are ultra-conservative, especially, when it comes to money. I think the integration and appreciating the integration of how this technology can impact business transactions, in the future, is really important to understand.  So I'm rambling a little bit, but I finally understand what you're talking about. I'm not a cheerleader like you, yet, but maybe one day. Maybe one day. So, any lasting thoughts that you want to say before we end our talk, today? Lamont:         Well, first of all, I'm very excited to work on this paper with you, Kelly. Because I think I'm coming at it from the perspective of finance. You're coming at it from the perspective of accounting. So in terms of managerial accounting, we're going to bring those two perspectives. Help people understand the implications of this technology, and help remove some of the fear and hesitation around this.  Because, like you said, crypto has very much gotten some bad press, recently, because of FTX. But I want to help people understand blockchain and crypto are related. We don't, necessarily, have to pull these two entirely apart.  And, so, in this article, we're going to talk about public blockchains like Ethereum. How can you use that for business use cases and things like that? So this will be a unique take on blockchain, relative to some of the other things that are out there in the accounting space. So I think we're going to have a lot of value to bring to the profession. Kelly:              Well, thank you so much for the time, Lamont, this is great. And, listen, we have a movie premiere coming up one of these days soon. So we need to walk the red carpet, bring our families to the red carpet, talking about this crypto movie we did together. So I can't wait for that day. Lamont:         I'm looking forward to it, too. Kelly:              Thanks so much for the time, today, I really appreciate it. Lamont:         Thank you, Kelly. Announcer:    This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast, providing you with the latest perspectives of thought leaders from the accounting and finance profession. If you like what you heard and you'd like to be counted in for more relevant accounting and finance education, visit IMA's website site at www.imanet.org.

Today's podcast is a continuation of our series exploring the safety of non-sugar sweeteners in both food and beverages. In 2022, the World Health Organization conducted a systematic review of the most current scientific evidence on the health effects of non-sugar sweeteners. This analysis of 283 studies reveals that non-sugar sweeteners can impact health conditions such as cardiovascular disease, type 2 diabetes, adiposity, bladder cancer, and preterm birth. In 2023, the WHO released a guideline on the use of non-sugar sweeteners based on this 2022 review. Our guests today are Dr. Jason Montez, scientist with the World Health Organization, and technical lead on the systematic review and guideline. And, the director of the Department of Nutrition and Food Safety at the World Health Organization, Dr. Francesco Branca. Interview Summary   This is really important work, so let's get right down to it. So, Francesco, let's begin with you. Would you help our listeners understand why the WHO, developed this guideline, and what do you hope to accomplish now?   Francesco: So our interest in the topic really came after the release of the WHO Guideline: Sugars Intake for Adults and Children in 2015. That recommendation was, of course, to reduce the amount of sugar to less than 10% of energy, and better if less than 5% for weight control and for dental hygiene. At the time, there was an interest, particularly from the food and beverage manufacturers, to consider the use of non-sugar sweeteners as part of the interventions in reducing sugar intake. This has been taken up by consumers since, and the availability of non-sugar sweeteners has increased. We thought it was important to review the evidence in a systematic manner, and to see whether this move was actually achieving the intended aim to control weight gain. So we thought of looking at non-sugar sweeteners use through the WHO guideline development process. Our hope, first of all, is to make sure that people achieve their intended health benefit, but also to avoid an unintended consequence on health.   I remember how much impact that report on sugar had, back when WHO released it. And boy, the same thing seems to be happening with the guideline that We are talking about today. So Jason, can you walk us through the key findings of the systematic review?   Jason: Sure. So the top line results of the systematic review are that in short term randomized controlled trials mostly lasting three months or less, those consuming higher amounts of non-sugar sweetener, compared to lower amounts or no non-sugar sweetener, has slightly lower body weight. So around 700 grams. And, slightly lower BMI; about 0.2 units. However, in long-term prospective cohort studies, many with several years of follow-up, body weight was either unchanged, or greater in those consuming higher amounts of non-sugar sweeteners. In addition, associations were also observed between non-sugar sweetener intake and increased risk of type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular diseases, and premature mortality. For diabetes, for example, we found about a 25% increase in risk. In RCTs - markers of these diseases - such as blood glucose, insulin, cholesterol, blood pressure, were largely unaffected by non-sugar sweetener use. In addition, we saw an increased risk of bladder cancer coming from case control studies and it was primarily driven by saccharin. Also, a 25% increase in risk of preterm birth in pregnant women in terms of body weight, and the risk of non-communicable diet-related diseases. We essentially have seemingly opposing results between the short-term randomized controlled trials and the long-term cohort studies.   Those are really concerning findings. Somebody in their own calculus might say, "Well, I'm willing to accept the risk for those things as long as it helps with my body weight." But, you are talking about greater weight in people using the non-sugar sweeteners.   Jason: Right. In terms of long-term impact on body weight, there is not a lot of evidence. This is all coming from cohort studies, and cohort studies have caveats associated with them. But, what we see in those studies is it is either really not much of an positive impact, but we did see some increased risk. For example, there was an increased risk of incident obesity in one study. They looked at people at baseline without obesity using standard WHO cutoffs. Then they followed them up over time. They counted the number of people who transitioned over the obesity threshold, and they found that it was higher in those using non-sugar sweeteners. So there is some evidence, but I think we need additional evidence to be really sure about that in the other associations.   So Jason, you alluded to this earlier that there were differences in the health outcomes reported in randomized controlled trials versus observational studies. Can you explain why this might be?   Jason: Yes. So it is a bit nuanced and I think a lot of it has to do with the nature of the studies. To really understand this, we need to unpack that high-level evidence a bit. I think I'll start just by talking about what is maybe the elephant in the room and that is reverse causation because it has been frequently invoked as a reason for the associations observed between non-sugar sweeteners and body weight and disease outcomes. Basically, reverse causation suggests that those already at elevated risk of disease initiated or increased the use of non-sugar sweeteners because of their risk status, rather than non-sugar sweeteners leading to the increased risk in otherwise healthier low risk individuals. That would make sense in this case. However, researchers who conducted the individual studies that we included in the review were also well aware of the potential for both reverse causation and residual confounding. Most of them really went to great lengths to minimize the possible interference of these phenomenon and they adjusted extensively for confounding variables and all the lifestyle variables. Quite often, they adjusted for other dietary variables. They looked at body weight, they stratified, and they did sensitivity analysis where they would limit the analysis to individuals with normal body weight. They also removed from the analyses, in some cases, those at risk for disease at baseline. Many of them did a sensitivity analysis where they excluded the first several years of assessing the outcome, just to make sure that someone who wasn't already really at risk to develop a disease right away was not part of the analysis. You know, in some cases the effect was attenuated. But, for the most part, the associations were not affected. Certainly, that is the case for type 2 diabetes. So I think that reverse causation might have contributed, but, really the lengths that the study authors took to address it I calms us a bit in terms of whether or not We are worried about it.   It is very helpful to know that. You know, we've gone for years and years thinking that these things are safe, or at the worst have neutral effects. Now the studies are showing the negative effects. Partly, it is just because the science has marched ahead. There are many more studies now. People have been more careful with the design of the studies. More sweeteners have been studied. This seems like just kind of a natural progression of the scientific process.   Jason:  Yes, that is how it works. We continually add. There is still a lot to look at in terms of the differences. Another really important thing to remember is that in the RCTs, a variety of interventions were employed. A lot of the studies took people who were consuming a normal diet, and they just gave them, for example, a sugar-sweetened beverage, or non-sugar sweetened beverage. They wanted to look at what the effects of a sugar-sweetened beverage are. Very few actually looked at individuals who were habituated to sugar, mostly sugar-sweetened beverages. They then asked study participants to replace the sugar with non-sugar sweetener. When you look at just those small number of studies, the results really get attenuated for both body weight and for BMI. That is another reason why if you look at it that way, the results between the long-term and short-term tend to gravitate towards each other.   One last thing - I don't want to overdo it here, but it is important - there are likely big, big differences in terms of how non-sugar sweeteners are used in these highly experimental randomized controlled trial settings and cohort studies, which are really more like real world use. In a randomized controlled trial, you're instructed to do this, or that. Drink this, take that. You get quite a bit of support from the study team. You'll get counseling, follow up, etc. Everyone knows they are in a scientific study. Quite often, they actually know which arm they are in. Whereas in the cohort study, in the real world, people use non-sugar sweeteners in a variety of ways. Sometimes they do it as a conscious replacement for sugars. But quite often, they just consume beverages containing non-sugar sweeteners or foods containing non-sugar sweeteners because they have a diet label on them, and they just perceive that those types of products to be healthy. Sometimes they use them as a way of having something sweeter or something that maybe they shouldn't have later on in the day. It is much more complex in the real world and obviously the real world is how these things are used. So how sweeteners are used also can contribute to these differences between what we see in highly experimental randomized controlled trials and the real world.   - [Kelly] So how do these non-sugar sweeteners cause these negative health effects?   - [Jason] We don't know for sure. Let me just say that upfront. But we have ideas and the scientific community has ideas. A lot of mechanisms have been put forth to explain how this might be happening. A lot of them are actually linked to the expression of sweet taste receptors. They are expressed in the mouth, obviously, that is how we perceive things to be sweet. But they are also expressed elsewhere in glucose sensing cells, such as the gastrointestinal tract and pancreas. So there are a number of different ways that this might work. There could be effects on taste perception, sweet taste preference, a threshold of sweet taste sensitivity, and eating behavior as it impacts on hunger or appetite. There could be other neural responses. There is this whole discussion about the hedonic response to any sweet taste. Also, there might be release of metabolic hormones, and other biological molecules, in response to non-sugar sweetener intake. Then, of course, There is a lot of buzz around potential alterations to the gut microbiome, which is a really interesting area. But There is a lot of understanding still to be gained there. Also, as noted, in terms of potential mechanism, it could be that the behavioral component we just spoke about, in terms of how people actually use non-sugar sweeteners in the real world, could also contribute to the association between non-sugar sweetener use, and body weight, and disease outcomes.   A vast number of effects happen once these things get into the body. So Francesco, let me come back to you. What is WHO recommending? I know some recommendations that have been made are conditional. What does this mean?   Francesco: So the recommendation reads that the WHO suggests that non-sugar sweeteners not be used as a means of achieving weight control, or reducing the risk of non-communicable diseases. It is a very simple one. It is basically saying that you're using the sweeteners, but they are not going to help you in weight control, or reducing the risk of that related non-communicable disease. So Kelly, as you said earlier, would I take the risk potentially associated with non-sugar sweeteners if I knew that this would benefit my weight? But in this case, what we are saying is, "Well, look, it is not going to benefit your weight control." We are leaving it there, because the purpose of this review was, particularly, to look at weight control. We were not looking at other aspects of safety - which is actually the task of other regulatory/advisory bodies, although we had to consider in the recommendation when we called the balance of benefits and harm. So here, the recommendation was clearly to say, "Well, you shouldn't use it, because there is no demonstrated benefit, and there might be some harm."   Now, WHO can make two types of recommendations. Recommendations can be strong or conditional. The decision on whether to go for the stronger condition is based on a number of factors - certainty in the supporting scientific evidence, and the balance of desirable and undesirable consequences. A strong recommendation is the recommendation for which WHO gathering group is confident that the desirable consequences of implementing the recommendation outweighs the undesirable consequences. In most situations, this would be something that government can take on immediately and use in their policymaking. A conditional recommendation is a situation where the WHO guide group is less certain about that balance between the desirable and undesirable consequences. Therefore, we are basically saying, you need to consider the context, and then decide what to do with this particular recommendation. So, in this case, why did we go for conditional? There is an element related to the balance and the evidence that Jason described earlier on. There is also an issue about short term versus longer-term consumption. We have been trying to explain why not using does not create a problem. The action also depends on the context of use of this particular product. For example, the levels of consumption in different age groups in the population. So, in a sense, our understanding of the issue, is still not complete. We believe that we need to have more science on the topic. We decided to take a bit of a conservative approach. That is why we end up saying conditional, which means we still recommend that people not use non-sugar sweeteners. But in terms of making use with this recommendation, we would like governments to also do their own assessment on how to translate this into policy practice.   So Francesco, on one hand, we have sugar being a bad actor and now the replacements for sugars can be bad actors. So how does this get balanced out? Should people go back to sugar? Should they just get used to things being less sweet? How does this work?   Francesco: So definitely people should not go back to sugars because we know that consumption of free sugars has been linked to unhealthy weight gain, type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular disease, and dental caries. We definitely maintain the recommendation that we should limit free sugar intake. But unfortunately, non-sugar sweeteners are not producing a good benefit if we replace them with sugar. What they are saying is that both free sugars and non-sugar sweeteners should be limited. So yes indeed we would need to adjust our own taste to consuming products which are less sweet. We should also ask the producers to reduce the sweetness in their product.   So Jason, do you have some thoughts you'd like to share about this?   Jason: Yes. Again, from a scientific evidence standpoint, it is interesting. If you look at the literature, and you look at the studies, and we have lots of studies now, and a lot of systematic reviews, and umbrella reviews that really tried to make sense of all of this. But if you look at some of the impacts, associations between sugar intake, and diet-related noncommunicable diseases, especially type 2 diabetes, and you look at the actual magnitude of associations, the increased risk, they are really in line with what they are for non-sugar sweeteners. In fact, some recent modeling published in 2022, modeling in the prospective cohort studies, shows that when you replace sugar with non-sugar sweetener, you basically end up with a no result. Which means that non-sugar sweeteners, at least in terms of type 2 diabetes, are just as bad for you as sugar-sweetened beverages. These studies are all looking at beverages. It is interesting that we have to keep in mind that they may both be bad actors as you indicated, Kelly.   What an amazing picture. Francesco, so do you think that non-sugar sweeteners should not be used as a harm reduction mechanism to help people reduce their sugar intake?   Francesco: Yes, that is what our recommendation basically says. We are encouraging individuals, but also government, to think of other ways to reduce sugar intake that does not require the use of sweeteners as a replacement. There are ways to do that. I mean, certainly, there are unsweetened variants of the same food or drink. There are alternatives in diet patterns. You don't necessarily have to have a dessert at every meal. You can have fruit. We know that the fruit sugars do not have the same metabolic effect as free sugars. We know that, for example, certain countries, like in the UK have given options to companies to use sweeteners instead, to avoid the sugar levy. Probably, we would ask those countries to have an assessment of what has happened and see whether that policy is still a useful one, or if it should be revised.   So Jason, I'd like to ask you about diabetes. Does the recommendations apply to people with diabetes, and can people with diabetes use these non-sugar sweeteners?   Jason: I'll tell you, that is a question we are getting a lot of. Our guidance really is for preventing the development of disease, and not for treating, or managing existing disease, including diabetes. In terms of the process, making recommendations for preventing disease is very different than making recommendations for managing disease. Different scientific evidence needs to be reviewed. In the case of diabetes, some of the evidence is overlapping. But we really do need to look at a different body of evidence and a different assessment of potential risks and benefits needs to be made. This is all in the context of a larger plan of treatment, which may also include medication, and other lifestyle changes. Therefore, managing disease requires greater input from clinicians. Something else to remember is that individuals without diabetes do have the option to include some sugar in the diet when something sweet is desired. But for many with diabetes, this isn't really an option. With that said, individuals with diabetes can certainly manage their disease without the use of non-sugar sweeteners. However, such decisions really should be made on an individual basis, and only in consultation with one's healthcare provider.   So Jason, let me ask you a question about Stevia in particular. So there are some thinking that because it is natural, unlike the artificial sweeteners, it is somehow different. So why doesn't the recommendation make distinctions between different non-sugar sweeteners?   Jason: That is a great question. Although all non-sugar sweeteners have unique chemical structures, and consequently may differ in their sweetness intensity, organoleptic properties, and routes of processing by the body, we don't make a distinction in our guidance between individual sweeteners or between so-called natural sweeteners, like Stevia, and artificial sweeteners. This is because all sweeteners, including sugar, use the same biological pathway when it comes to how we perceive them as sweet tasting, so the sweet taste receptor I mentioned earlier. And, consequently, how they might impact weight and risk of disease. Also relevant is the possibility that we discussed before, which is that people may use these in ways that promote weight gain and disease, irrespective of what type of non-sugar sweeteners being used. We feel that the evidence for a class effect is sufficient to include them together in our recommendation.   That is very helpful to know. So Francesco, some organizations, for example, the Food and Drug Administration in the US, have declared over the years that these non-sugar sweeteners are safe for use. If those organizations feel they are safe, then why is WHO recommending that they not be?   Francesco: In a sense, it is a different issue. Before any of these compounds are used in food, it has to go through this safety assessment. You mentioned the Food and Drug Administration. FAO and WHO are managing a joint expert committee on food additives that is providing advice to the Codex Alimentarius. And all these bodies, basically what they are saying is, they look at the toxicology of the products and they use animal studies. In some cases, they look at human studies. But they are basically looking at acceptable daily intakes that provide usually short term impacts. We are also encouraging these bodies to consider longer-term epidemiological studies to look at other kinds of effects. For example, at the moment there is a big debate going on because both the International Agency for Research on Cancer, and the JECFA, are looking at the safety of aspartame and considering, for example, certain longer term epidemiological human studies. These bodies are talking about certain aspects of safety and looking at the very high levels of intake. Just to give you an example, at the moment the acceptable daily intake for aspartame is about 40 milligrams per kilogram per day, which is 2.8 grams for an average individual. That is about what you would get from 14 cans of a commonly consumed drink. That is a lot. We are saying maybe that is something that can be moderated. So these bodies talk about safe or maximal levels of intake of individual sweeteners. Here, in our recommendation, we are saying this practice of replacing sweeteners with sugars is not going to lead you to improved health gains, but you're getting into an area of risk that even if it is within the agreed safety level, is something that you may want to avoid.   That is helpful context. So, what are the policy implications of all this?   Francesco: Some countries are already considering giving a warning on the content of non-sugar sweeteners in products. For example, what you have in Mexico. Some countries might decide to give the same warning if it is something that should be at least not encouraged. So that could be a way to do it. Other countries, while using nutrient profiling system, for example, for front of the pack labeling, or for marketing regulation, may decide to include sweeteners in the list of food that should be avoided. That is also happening, again, in South American countries. From our point of view, I think we would really like to give the message that the sweetness of food should be reduced. The same way we are having a dialogue with the food industry about reduction of the sugar content of food, particularly in foods that are intended for young children. We would really like to give a message that we should reduce the content of sweeteners. That is possible. And not relying entirely on sweeteners as an alternative for the reduction of sweetness or, reduction of calories, but really looking at a change in the strategies in peoples' daily diets.   Thank you, I appreciate that. You know to the extent one person can be instructed in this, 11 or 12 years ago, or so, I stopped drinking diet beverages because of the very concerns we were talking about today. I just switched over to tea with no sweetener in it at all. I'm completely accustomed to that now and I find it very enjoyable. I also find the things that I used to drink to be completely oversweet now. So people can get calibrated at different levels of sweetness, can't they?   Francesco: Absolutely. In a sense, this is the same discussion we've had with salt. I mean our capacity to adapt is there and it happens relatively quickly. People can enjoy foods without having that enormous level of sweetness. As we know, sometimes the excess presence of other salts, or sugar, or sweeteners, is some have a way to cover the lack of good taste from the other ingredients. So good foods and drinks can certainly happen without the unnecessary addition of this compound.   Bios   Jason Montez is a Scientist in the Department of Nutrition and Food Safety at the World Health Organization (WHO) in Geneva, where he works on the development, dissemination and implementation of nutrition guidance. Prior to joining WHO, Dr Montez was a consultant to WHO and other international organizations and co-founder of a biotechnology start-up. He received a PhD in Biomedical Sciences from The Rockefeller University and MPH from New York University, both located in New York, USA.  Francesco Branca is the Director of the Department of Nutrition and Food Safety at the World Health Organization (WHO), Geneva. He graduated in Medicine and Surgery and specialized in Diabetology and Metabolic Diseases at the Università Cattolica del Sacro Cuore, Roma. He obtained a PhD in Nutrition at Aberdeen University. He was a senior scientist at the Italian Food and Nutrition Research Institute (INRAN). He was President of the Federation of the European Nutrition Societies from 2003 to 2007. Rios-Leyvraz, Magali; Montez, J. “Health Effects of the Use of Non-Sugar Sweeteners: Systematic Review and Meta-analysis,” World Health Organization. https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/9789240046429 WHO guideline on use of non-sugar sweeteners https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/9789240073616

Kelly Shortridge, Senior Principal Engineer at Fastly, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss their recently released book, Security Chaos Engineering: Sustaining Resilience in Software and Systems. Kelly explains why a resilient strategy is far preferable to a bubble-wrapped approach to cybersecurity, and how developer teams can use evidence to mitigate security threats. Corey and Kelly discuss how the risks of working with complex systems is perfectly illustrated by Jurassic Park, and Kelly also highlights why it's critical to address both system vulnerabilities and human vulnerabilities in your development environment rather than pointing fingers when something goes wrong.About KellyKelly Shortridge is a senior principal engineer at Fastly in the office of the CTO and lead author of "Security Chaos Engineering: Sustaining Resilience in Software and Systems" (O'Reilly Media). Shortridge is best known for their work on resilience in complex software systems, the application of behavioral economics to cybersecurity, and bringing security out of the dark ages. Shortridge has been a successful enterprise product leader as well as a startup founder (with an exit to CrowdStrike) and investment banker. Shortridge frequently advises Fortune 500s, investors, startups, and federal agencies and has spoken at major technology conferences internationally, including Black Hat USA, O'Reilly Velocity Conference, and SREcon. Shortridge's research has been featured in ACM, IEEE, and USENIX, spanning behavioral science in cybersecurity, deception strategies, and the ROI of software resilience. They also serve on the editorial board of ACM Queue.Links Referenced: Fastly: https://www.fastly.com/ Personal website: https://kellyshortridge.com Book website: https://securitychaoseng.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellyshortridge/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/swagitda_ Bluesky: https://shortridge.bsky.social TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Have you listened to the new season of Traceroute yet? Traceroute is a tech podcast that peels back the layers of the stack to tell the real, human stories about how the inner workings of our digital world affect our lives in ways you may have never thought of before. Listen and follow Traceroute on your favorite platform, or learn more about Traceroute at origins.dev. My thanks to them for sponsoring this ridiculous podcast. Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud, I'm Corey Quinn. My guest today is Kelly Shortridge, who is a Senior Principal Engineer over at Fastly, as well as the lead author of the recently released Security Chaos Engineering: Sustaining Resilience in Software and Systems. Kelly, welcome to the show.Kelly: Thank you so much for having me.Corey: So, I want to start with the honest truth that in that title, I think I know what some of the words mean, but when you put them together in that particular order, I want to make sure we're talking about the same thing. Can you explain that like I'm five, as far as what your book is about?Kelly: Yes. I'll actually start with an analogy I make in the book, which is, imagine you were trying to rollerblade to some destination. Now, one thing you could do is wrap yourself in a bunch of bubble wrap and become the bubble person, and you can waddle down the street trying to make it to your destination on the rollerblades, but if there's a gust of wind or a dog barks or something, you're going to flop over, you're not going to recover. However, if you instead do what everybody does, which is you know, kneepads and other things that keep you flexible and nimble, the gust you know, there's a gust of wind, you can kind of be agile, navigate around it; if a dog barks, you just roller-skate around it; you can reach your destination. The former, the bubble person, that's a lot of our cybersecurity today. It's just keeping us very rigid, right? And then the alternative is resilience, which is the ability to recover from failure and adapt to evolving conditions.Corey: I feel like I am about to torture your analogy to death because back when I was in school in 2000, there was an annual tradition at the school I was attending before failing out, where a bunch of us would paint ourselves green every year and then bike around the campus naked. It was the green bike ride. So, one year I did this on rollerblades. So, if you wind up looking—there's the bubble wrap, there's the safety gear, and then there's wearing absolutely nothing, which feels—Kelly: [laugh]. Yes.Corey: —kind of like the startup approach to InfoSec. It's like, “It'll be fine. What's the worst that happens?” And you're super nimble, super flexible, until suddenly, oops, now I really wish I'd done things differently.Kelly: Well, there's a reason why I don't say rollerblade naked, which other than it being rather visceral, what you described is what I've called YOLOSec before, which is not what you want to do. Because the problem when you think about it from a resilience perspective, again, is you want to be able to recover from failure and adapt. Sure, you can oftentimes move quickly, but you're probably going to erode software quality over time, so to a certain point, there's going to be some big incident, and suddenly, you aren't fast anymore, you're actually pretty slow. So, there's this, kind of, happy medium where you have enough, I would like security by design—we can talk about that a bit if you want—where you have enough of the security by design baked in and you can think of it as guardrails that you're able to withstand and recover from any failure. But yeah, going naked, that's a recipe for not being able to rollerblade, like, ever again, potentially [laugh].Corey: I think, on some level, that the correct dialing in of security posture is going to come down to context, in almost every case. I'm building something in my spare time in the off hours does not need the same security posture—mostly—as we are a bank. It feels like there's a very wide gulf between those two extremes. Unfortunately, I find that there's a certain tone-deafness coming from a lot of the security industry around oh, everyone must have security as their number one thing, ever. I mean, with my clients who I fixed their AWS bills, I have to care about security contractually, but the secrets that I hold are boring: how much money certain companies pay another very large company.Yes, I'll get sued into oblivion if that leaks, but nobody dies. Nobody is having their money stolen as a result. It's slightly embarrassing in the tech press for a cycle and then it's over and done with. That's not the same thing as a brief stint I did running tech ops at Grindr ten years ago where, leak that database and people will die. There's a strong difference between those threat models, and on some level, being able to act accordingly has been one of the more eye-opening approaches to increasing velocity in my experience. Does that align with the thesis of your book, since my copy has not yet arrived for this recording?Kelly: Yes. The book, I am not afraid to say it depends on the book, and you're right, it depends on context. I actually talk about this resilience potion recipe that you can check out if you want, these ingredients so we can sustain resilience. A key one is defining your critical functions, just what is your system's reason for existence, and that is what you want to make sure it can recover and still operate under adverse conditions, like you said.Another example I give all the time is most SaaS apps have some sort of reporting functionality. Guess what? That's not mission-critical. You don't need the utmost security on that, for the most part. But if it's processing transactions, yeah, probably you want to invest more security there. So yes, I couldn't agree more that it's context-dependent and oh, my God, does the security industry ignore that so much of the time, and it's been my gripe for, I feel like as long as I've been in the industry.Corey: I mean, there was a great talk that Netflix gave years ago where they mentioned in passing, that all developers have root in production. And that's awesome and the person next to him was super excited and I looked at their badge, and holy hell, they worked at an actual bank. That seems like a bad plan. But talking to the Netflix speaker after the fact, Dave Hahn, something that I found that was extraordinarily insightful, was that, yeah, well we just isolate off the PCI environment so the rest and sensitive data lives in its own compartmentalized area. So, at that point, yeah, you're not going to be able to break much in that scenario.It's like, that would have been helpful context to put in talk. Which I'm sure he did, but my attention span had tripped out and I missed that. But that's, on some level, constraining blast radius and not having compliance and regulatory issues extending to every corner of your environment really frees you up to do things appropriately. But there are some things where you do need to care about this stuff, regardless of how small the surface area is.Kelly: Agreed. And I introduced the concept of the effort investment portfolio in the book, which is basically, that is where does it matter to invest effort and where can you kind of like, maybe save some resources up. I think one thing you touched on, though, is, we're really talking about isolation and I actually think people don't think about isolation in as detailed or maybe as expansively as they could. Because we want both temporal and logical and spatial isolation. What you talked about is, yeah, there are some cases where you want to isolate data, you want to isolate certain subsystems, and that could be containers, it could also be AWS security groups.It could take a bunch of different forms, it could be something like RLBox in WebAssembly land. But I think that's something that I really try to highlight in the book is, there's actually a huge opportunity for security engineers starting from the design of a system to really think about how can we infuse different forms of isolation to sustain resilience.Corey: It's interesting that you use the word investment. When fixing AWS bills for a living, I've learned over the last almost seven years now of doing this that cost and architecture and cloud are fundamentally the same thing. And resilience is something that comes with a very real cost, particularly when you start looking at what the architectural choices are. And one of the big reasons that I only ever work on a fixed-fee basis is because if I'm charging for a percentage of savings or something, it inspires me to say really uncomfortable things like, “Backups are for cowards.” And, “When was the last time you saw an entire AWS availability zone go down for so long that it mattered? You don't need to worry about that.” And it does cut off an awful lot of cost issues, at the price of making the environment more fragile.That's where one of the context thing starts to come in. I mean, in many cases, if AWS is having a bad day in a given region, well does your business need that workload to be functional? For my newsletter, I have a publication system that's single-homed out of the Oregon region. If that whole thing goes down for multiple days, I'm writing that week's issue by hand because I'm going to have something different to talk about anyway. For me, there is no value in making that investment. But for companies, there absolutely is, but there's also seems to be a lack of awareness around, how much is a reasonable investment in that area when do you start making that investment? And most critically, when do you stop?Kelly: I think that's a good point, and luckily, what's on my side is the fact that there's a lot of just profligate spending in cybersecurity and [laugh] that's really what I'm focused on is, how can we spend those investments better? And I actually think there's an opportunity in many cases to ditch a ton of cybersecurity tools and focus more on some of the stuff he talked about. I agree, by the way that I've seen some threat models where it's like, well, AWS, all regions go down. I'm like, at that point, we have, like, a severe, bigger-than-whatever-you're-thinking-about problem, right?Corey: Right. So, does your business continuity plan account for every one of your staff suddenly quitting on the spot because there's a whole bunch of companies with very expensive consulting, like, problems that I'm going to go work for a week and then buy a house in cash. It's one of those areas where, yeah, people are not going to care about your environment more than they are about their families and other things that are going on. Plan accordingly. People tend to get so carried away with these things with tabletop planning exercises. And then of course, they forget little things like I overwrote the database by dropping the wrong thing. Turns out that was production. [laugh]. Remembering for [a me 00:10:00] there.Kelly: Precisely. And a lot of the chaos experiments that I talk about in the book are a lot of those, like, let's validate some of those basics, right? That's actually some of the best investments you can make. Like, if you do have backups, I can totally see your argument about backups are for cowards, but if you do have them, like, maybe you conduct experiments to make sure that they're available when you need them, and the same thing, even on the [unintelligible 00:10:21] side—Corey: No one cares about backups, but everyone really cares about restores, suddenly, right after—Kelly: Yeah.Corey: —they really should have cared about backups.Kelly: Exactly. So, I think it's looking at those experiments where it's like, okay, you have these basic assumptions in place that you assume to be invariance or assume that they're going to bail you out if something goes wrong. Let's just verify. That's a great place to start because I can tell you—I know you've been to the RSA hall floor—how many cybersecurity teams are actually assessing the efficacy and actually experimenting to see if those tools really help them during incidents. It's pretty few.Corey: Oh, vendors do not want to do those analyses. They don't want you to do those analyses, either, and if you do, for God's sakes, shut up about it. They're trying to sell things here, mostly firewalls.Kelly: Yeah, cybersecurity vendors aren't necessarily happy about my book and what I talk about because I have almost this ruthless focus on evidence and [unintelligible 00:11:08] cybersecurity vendors kind of thrive on a lack of evidence. So.Corey: There's so much fear, uncertainty, and doubt in that space and I do feel for them. It's a hard market to sell in without having to talk about here's the thing that you're defending against. In my case, it's easy to sell the AWS bill is high because if I don't have to explain why more or less setting money on fire as a bad thing, I don't really know what to tell you. I'm going to go look for a slightly different customer profile. That's not really how it works in security, I'm sure there are better go-to-market approaches, but they're hard to find, at least, ones that work holistically.Kelly: There are. And one of my priorities with the book was to really enumerate how many opportunities there are to take software engineering practices that people already know, let's say something like type systems even, and how those can actually help sustain resilience. Even things like integration testing or infrastructure as code, there are a lot of opportunities just to extend what we already do for systems reliability to sustain resilience against things that aren't attacks and just make sure that, you know, we cover a few of those cases as well. A lot of it should be really natural to software engineering teams. Again, security vendors don't like that because it turns out software engineering teams don't particularly like security vendors.Corey: I hadn't noticed that. I do wonder, though, for those who are unaware, chaos engineering started off as breaking things on purpose, which I feel like one person had a really good story and thought about it super quickly when they were about to get fired. Like, “No, no, it's called Chaos Engineering.” Good for them. It's now a well-regarded discipline. But I've always heard of it in the context of reliability of, “Oh, you think your site is going to work if the database falls over? Let's push it over and see what happens.” How does that manifest in a security context?Kelly: So, I will clarify, I think that's a slight misconception. It's really about fixing things in production, and that's the end goal. I think we should not break things just to break them, right? But I'll give a simple example, which I know it's based on what Aaron Rinehart conducted at UnitedHealth Group, which is, okay, let's inject a misconfigured port as an experiment and see what happens, end-to-end. In their case, the firewall only detected the misconfigured port 60% of the time, so 60% of the time, it works every time.But it was actually the cloud, the very common, like, Cloud configuration management tool that caught the change and alerted responders. So, it's that kind of thing where we're still trying to verify those assumptions that we have about our systems and how they behave, again, end-to-end. In a lot of cases, again, with security tools, they are not behaving as we expect. But I still argue security is just a subset of software quality, so if we're experimenting to verify, again, our assumptions and observe system behavior, we're benefiting software quality, and security is just a subset of that. Think about C code, right? It's not like there's, like, a healthy memory corruption, so it's bad for both the quality and security reason.Corey: One problem that I've had in the security space for a while is—let's [unintelligible 00:14:05] on this to AWS for a second because that is the area in which I spend the most of my time, which probably explains a lot about my personality challenges. But the problem that I keep smacking into is if I go ahead and configure everything the way that I should according to best practices and the rest, I wind up with a firehose torrent of information in terms of CloudTrail logs, et cetera. And it's expensive in its own right. But then to sort through it or to do a lot of things in security, there are basically two options. I can either buy a vendor's product, which generally tends to start around $12,000 a year and goes up rapidly from there on my current $6,000 a year bill, so okay, twice as much as the infrastructure for security monitoring. Okay.Or alternately, find a bunch of different random scripts and tools on GitHub of wildly diverging quality and sort of hope for the best on that. It feels like there's nothing in between. And the reason I care about this is not because I'm cheap but because when you have an individual learner who is either a student or a career switcher or someone just trying to experiment with this, you want them to begin as you want them to go on, and things that are no money for an enterprise are all the money to them. They're going to learn to work with the tools that they can afford. That feels like it's a big security swing and a miss. Do you agree or disagree? What's the nuance I'm missing here?Kelly: No, I don't think there's nuance you're missing. I think security observability, for one, isn't a buzzword that particularly exists. I've been trying to make it a thing, but I'm solely one individual screaming into the void. But observability just hasn't been a thing. We haven't really focused on, okay, so what, like, we get data and what do we do with it?And I think, again, from a software engineering perspective, I think there's a lot we can do. One, we can just avoid duplicating efforts. We can treat observability, again, of any sort of issue as similar, whether that's an attack or a performance issue. I think this is another place where security, or any sort of chaos experiment, shines though because if you have an idea of here's an adverse scenario we care about, you can actually see how does it manifest in the logs and you can start to figure out, like, what signals do we actually need to be looking for, what signals mattered to be able to narrow it down. Which again, it involves time and effort, but also, I can attest when you're buying the security vendor tool and, in theory, absolving some of that time and effort, it's maybe, maybe not, because it can be hard to understand what the outcomes are or what the outputs are from the tool and it can also be very difficult to tune it and to be able to explain some of the outputs. It's kind of like trading upfront effort versus long-term overall overhead if that makes sense.Corey: It does. On that note, the title of your book includes the magic key phrase ‘sustaining resilience.' I have found that security effort and investment tends to resemble a fire drill in—Kelly: [laugh].Corey: —an awful lot of places, where, “We care very much about security,” says the company, right after they very clearly failed to care about security, and I know this because I'm reading getting an email about a breach that they've just sent me. And then there's a whole bunch of running around and hair-on-fire moments. But then there's a new shiny that always comes up, a new strategic priority, and it falls to the wayside again. What do you see the drives that sustained effort and focus on resilience in a security context?Kelly: I think it's really making sure you have a learning culture, which sounds very [unintelligible 00:17:30], but things again, like, experiments can help just because when you do simulate those adverse scenarios and you see how your system behaves, it's almost like running an incident and you can use that as very fresh, kind of, like collective memory. And I even strongly recommend starting off with prior incidents in simulating those, just to see like, hey, did the improvements we make actually help? If they didn't, that can be kind of another fire under the butt, so to speak, to continue investing. So, definitely in practice—and there's some case studies in the book—it can be really helpful just to kind of like sustain that memory and sustain that learning and keep things feeling a bit fresh. It's almost like prodding the nervous system a little, just so it doesn't go back to that complacent and convenient feeling.Corey: It's one of the hard problems because—I'm sure I'm going to get castigated for this by some of the listeners—but computers are easy, particularly compared to the people. There are deterministic ways to solve almost any computer problem, but people are always going to be a little bit different, and getting them to perform the same way today that they did yesterday is an exercise in frustration. Changing the culture, changing the approach and the attitude that people take toward a lot of these things feels, from my perspective, like, something of an impossible job. Cultural transformations are things that everyone talks about, but it's rare to see them succeed.Kelly: Yes, and that's actually something that I very strongly weaved throughout the book is that if your security solutions rely on human behavior, they're going to fail. We want to either reduce hazards or eliminate hazards by design as much as possible. So, my view is very much again, like, can you make processes more repeatable? That's going to help security. I definitely do not think that if anyone takes away from my book that they need to have, like, a thousand hours of training to change hearts and minds, then they have completely misunderstood most of the book.The idea is very much like, what are practices that we want for other outcomes anyway—again, reliability or faster time to market—and how can we harness those to also be improving resilience or security at the same time? It's very much trying to think about those opportunities rather than, you know, trying to drill into people's heads, like, “Thou shalt not,” or, “Thou shall.”Corey: Way back in 2018, you gave a keynote at some conference or another and you built the entire thing on the story of Jurassic Park, specifically Ian Malcolm as one of your favorite fictional heroes, and you tied it into security in a bunch of different ways. You hadn't written this book then unless the authorship process is way longer than I think it is. So, I'm curious to get your take on what Jurassic Park can teach us about software security.Kelly: Yes, so I talk about Jurassic Park as a reference throughout the book, frequently. I've loved that book since I was a very young child. Jurassic Park is a great example of a complex system gone wrong because you can't point to any one thing. Like there's Dennis Nedry, you know, messing up the power system, but then there's also the software was looking for a very specific count of dinosaurs and they didn't anticipate there could be more in the count. Like, there are so many different factors that influenced it, you can't actually blame just, like, human error or point fingers at one thing.That's a beautiful example of how things go wrong in our software systems because like you said, there's this human element and then there's also how the humans interact and how the software components interact. But with Jurassic Park, too, I think the great thing is dinosaurs are going to do dinosaur things like eating people, and there are also equivalents in software, like C code. C code is going to do C code things, right? It's not a memory safe language, so we shouldn't be surprised when something goes wrong. We need to prepare accordingly.Corey: “How could this happen? Again?” Yeah.Kelly: Right. At a certain point, it's like, there's probably no way to sufficiently introduce isolation for dinosaurs unless you put them in a bunker where no one can see them, and it's the same thing sometimes with things like C code. There's just no amount of effort you can invest, and you're just kind of investing for a really unclear and generally not fortuitous outcome. So, I like it as kind of this analogy to think about, okay, where do our effort investments make sense and where is it sometimes like, we really just do need to refactor because we're dealing with dinosaurs here.Corey: When I was a kid, that was one of my favorite books, too. The problem is, I didn't realize I was getting a glimpse of my future at a number of crappy startups that I worked at. Because you have John Hammond, who was the owner of the park talking constantly about how, “We spared no expense,” but then you look at what actually happened and he spared every frickin expense. You have one IT person who is so criminally underpaid that smuggling dinosaur embryos off the island becomes a viable strategy for this. He wound up, “Oh, we couldn't find the right DNA, so we're just going to, like, splice some other random stuff in there. It'll be fine.”Then you have the massive overconfidence because it sounds very much like he had this almost Muskian desire to fire anyone who disagreed with him, and yeah, there was a certain lack of investment that could have been made, despite loud protestations to the contrary. I'd say that he is the root cause, he is the proximate reason for the entire failure of the park. But I'm willing to entertain disagreement on that point.Kelly: I think there are other individuals, like Dr. Wu, if you recall, like, deciding to do the frog DNA and not thinking that maybe something could go wrong. I think there was a lot of overconfidence, which you're right, we do see a lot in software. So, I think that's actually another very important lesson is that incentives matter and incentives are very hard to change, kind of like what you talked about earlier. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't include incentives in our threat model.So like, in the book I talked about, our threat models should include things like maybe yeah, people are underpaid or there is a ton of pressure to deliver things quickly or, you know, do things as cheaply as possible. That should be just as much of our threat models as all of the technical stuff too.Corey: I think that there's a lot that was in that movie that was flat-out wrong. For example, one of the kids—I forget her name; it's been a long time—was logging in and said, “Oh, this is Unix. I know Unix.” And having learned Unix as my first basically professional operating system, “No, you don't. No one knows Unix. They get very confused at some point, the question is, just how far down what rabbit hole it is.”I feel so sorry for that kid. I hope she wound up seeking therapy when she was older to realize that, no, you don't actually know Unix. It's not that you're bad at computers, it's that Unix is user-hostile, actively so. Like, the raptors, like, that's the better metaphor when everything winds up shaking out.Kelly: Yeah. I don't disagree with that. The movie definitely takes many liberties. I think what's interesting, though, is that Michael Creighton, specifically, when he talks about writing the book—I don't know how many people know this—dinosaurs were just a mechanism. He knew people would want to read it in airport.What he cared about was communicating really the danger of complex systems and how if you don't respect them and respect that interactivity and that it can baffle and surprise us, like, things will go wrong. So, I actually find it kind of beautiful in a way that the dinosaurs were almost like an afterthought. What he really cared about was exactly what we deal with all the time in software, is when things go wrong with complexity.Corey: Like one of his other books, Airframe, talked about an air disaster. There's a bunch of contributing factors in the rest, and for some reason, that did not receive the wild acclaim that Jurassic Park did to become a cultural phenomenon that we're still talking about, what, 30 years later.Kelly: Right. Dinosaurs are very compelling.Corey: They really are. I have to ask though—this is the joy of having a kid who is almost six—what is your favorite dinosaur? Not a question most people get asked very often, but I am going to trot that one out.Kelly: No. Oh, that is such a good question. Maybe a Deinonychus.Corey: Oh, because they get so angry they spit and kill people? That's amazing.Kelly: Yeah. And I like that, kind of like, nimble, smarter one, and also the fact that most of the smaller ones allegedly had feathers, which I just love this idea of, like, feather-ful murder machines. I have the classic, like, nerd kid syndrome, though, where I read all these dinosaur names as a kid and I've never pronounced them out loud. So, I'm sure there are others—Corey: Yep.Kelly: —that I would just word salad. But honestly, it's hard to go wrong with choosing a favorite dinosaur.Corey: Oh, yeah. I'm sure some paleontologist is sitting out there in the field on the dig somewhere listening to this podcast, just getting very angry at our pronunciation and things. But for God's sake, I call the database Postgres-squeal. Get in line. There's a lot of that out there where looking at a complex system failures and different contributing factors and the rest makes stuff—that's what makes things interesting.I think that there's this the idea of a root cause is almost always incorrect. It's not, “Okay, who tripped over the buried landmine,” is not the interesting question. It's, “Who buried the thing?” What were all the things that wound up contributing to this? And you can't even frame it that way in the blaming context, just because you start doing that and people clam up, and good luck figuring out what really happened.Kelly: Exactly. That's so much of what the cybersecurity industry is focused on is how do we assign blame? And it's, you know, the marketing person clicked on a link. And it's like, they do that thousands of times, like a month, and the one time, suddenly, they were stupid for doing it? That doesn't sound right.So, I'm a big fan of, yes, vanquishing root cause, thinking about contributing factors, and in particular, in any sort of incident review, you have to think about, was there a designer process problem? You can't just think about the human behavior; you have to think about where are the opportunities for us to design things better, to make this secure way more of the default way.Corey: When you talk about resilience and reliability and big, notable outages, most forward-thinking companies are going to go and do a variety of incident reviews and disclosures around everything that happened to it, depending upon levels of trust and whether your NDA'ed or not, and how much gets public is going to vary from place to place. But from a security perspective, that feels like the sort of thing that companies will clam up about and never say a word.Kelly: Yes.Corey: Because I can wind up pouring a couple of drinks into people and get the real story of outages, or the AWS bill, but security stuff, they start to wonder if I'm a state actor, on some level. When you were building all of this, how did you wind up getting people to talk candidly and forthrightly about issues that if it became tied to them that they were talking to this in public would almost certainly have negative career impact for them?Kelly: Yes, so that's almost like a trade secret, I feel like. A lot of it is yes, over the years talking with people over, generally at a conference where you know, things are tipsy. I never want to betray confidentiality, to be clear, but certainly pattern-matching across people's stories.Corey: Yeah, we're both in positions where if even the hint of they can't be trusted enters the ecosystem, I think both of our careers explode and never recover. Like it's—Kelly: Exactly.Corey: —yeah. Oh, yeah. They play fast and loose with secrets is never the reputation you want as a professional.Kelly: No. No, definitely not. So, it's much more pattern matching and trying to generalize. But again, a lot of what can go wrong is not that different when you think about a developer being really tired and making a bunch of mistakes versus an attacker. A lot of times they're very much the same, so luckily there's commonality there.I do wish the security industry was more forthright and less clandestine because frankly, all of the public postmortems that are out there about performance issues are just such, such a boon for everyone else to improve what they're doing. So, that's a change I wish would happen.Corey: So, I have to ask, given that you talk about security, chaos engineering, and resilience-and of course, software and systems—all in the title of the O'Reilly book, who is the target audience for this? Is it folks who have the word security featured three times in their job title? Is it folks who are new to the space? What is your target audience start and stop?Kelly: Yes, so I have kept it pretty broad and it's anyone who works with software, but I'll talk about the software engineering audience because that is, honestly, probably out of anyone who I would love to read the book the most because I firmly believe that there's so much that software engineering teams can do to sustain resilience and security and they don't have to be security experts. So, I've tried to demystify security, make it much less arcane, even down to, like, how attackers, you know, they have their own development lifecycle. I try to demystify that, too. So, it's very much for any team, especially, like, platform engineering teams, SREs, to think about, hey, what are some of the things maybe I'm already doing that I can extend to cover, you know, the security cases as well? So, I would love for every software engineer to check it out to see, like, hey, what are the opportunities for me to just do things slightly differently and have these great security outcomes?Corey: I really want to thank you for taking the time to talk with me about how you view these things. If people want to learn more, where's the best place for them to find you?Kelly: Yes, I have all of the social media which is increasingly fragmented, [laugh] I feel like, but I also have my personal site, kellyshortridge.com. The official book site is securitychaoseng.com as well. But otherwise, find me on LinkedIn, Twitter, [Mastodon 00:30:22], Bluesky. I'm probably blanking on the others. There's probably already a new one while we've spoken.Corey: Blue-ski is how I insist on pronouncing it as well, while we're talking about—Kelly: Blue-ski?Corey: Funhouse pronunciation on things.Kelly: I like it.Corey: Excellent. And we will, of course, put links to all of those things in the [show notes 00:30:37]. Thank you so much for being so generous with your time. I really appreciate it.Kelly: Thank you for having me and being a fellow dinosaur nerd.Corey: [laugh]. Kelly Shortridge, Senior Principal Engineer at Fastly. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an insulting comment about how our choice of dinosaurs is incorrect, then put the computer away and struggle to figure out how to open a door.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

This episode of Tech Sales Insights features Kelly Breslin Wright, President and COO of Gong, as well as Founder and Thought leader at Culture Driven Sales. Seeing a comprehensive view of a salesperson's reality and taking insights from that is a powerful way to unlock their full potential. Kelly shares how Gong takes a holistic approach to data and uses AI to glean insights into customer conversations. This has sweeping advantages for salespeople and many other departments which have a stake in understanding what is going on with customer conversations and getting prescriptive guidance on what to do next. HIGHLIGHTSSelling books door to door: Kelly's journey in sales and entrepreneurshipGong offers a holistic approach to data and insights to create effective sellersProviding salespeople with actionable insights on what to do next QUOTESGrit and resilience are necessary to be successful - Kelly: "So much of being successful in sales and successful in business, it's about grit and learning how to put hard work in, learning how to get knocked down and how you stand back up and you keep on going. Learning how to persevere. And there is no job in the world that is harder than selling something door-to-door because you're sized up in 15 to 30 seconds."A holistic approach that makes people work more effectively - Kelly: "We capture all of this data and then we're able to provide a lot of diagnosing and understanding of what's happening with that reality so that we can help improve coaching, onboarding of your teams, help to understand what's going on with your competitors, understand what people are saying about your products so all different groups—marketing, sales, CS, product—who are interested in knowing what's going on in our customers conversations, can get that learning from Gong."Gong takes data from different work streams to produce holistic insights - Kelly: "If you only get a slice of the data, it's only going to tell you a slice of the story. So, first, you have to have a comprehensive view of what's going on with the data, and that's really been Gong's approach. We're going to be much more comprehensive of creating this foundational platform." Find out more about Kelly in the links below:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellybreslinwright/Website: https://gong.io/Send in a voice message to us: https://anchor.fm/salescommunity/message

This eye-opening convo exposes the reality many foster care youth face and shows what following passion instead of a path can achieve.  If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co . And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe. In this episode you will learn about:The backstory to Barely Canadian Tackling a large problem and believing in the impactThe foster care system and “aging out”Learning as you go and learning with othersLeading with your heart for success Finding something that you want to be a part of Episode References/Links:IG @barelycanadianWebsite Barely CanadianIG @kellyslatteryIG @marisapolvinoIG @straightupimpactEchoes of Hope WebsiteKidsave WebsiteGuest Bio:MARISA POLVINOCo-CEO/Founder STRAIGHT UP FILMS and STRAIGHT UP IMPACTWith a career spanning over three decades, Marisa Polvino is a prolific producer and entrepreneur with a skill for identifying, packaging, and producing quality, star-driven entertainment across all genres and budget levels. Presently, Marisa is Partner and Co-CEO/Founder of STRAIGHT UP FILMS a fully integrated multi-media production company that has worked alongside top-name Hollywood talent, including Natalie Portman, Rosario Dawson, Jesse Eisenberg, Gina Rodriguez and Johnny Depp.Polvino identifies and shapes projects that align with the company's ethos. Presently, she oversees a top flight feature slate which includeHow to Set a Fire and Why, directed by award winning director/actress Lisa Edelstein, Dissonance, a YA love story set in the multiverse directed by Catherine Hardwicke, Joseph Merrick - The Elephant Man to be directed by Rupert Sanders and a film adaptation of Viktor Frankl's iconic memoir Man's Search for Meaning.Recognizing the profound effect cinema can have on culture Polvino co-founded Straight Up Impact. The companies mission is to create, produce and finance thought provoking content that appeals to human emotions, shifts perspectives and inspires positive social change.Polvino uses her entrepreneurial spirit and know-how and focuses on forging relationships with likeminded partners while also overseeing much of the company's business strategy, development, marketing and operational structure. In 2019, she created the “Power On” series for Google's computer science in media division which was a short-film series directed by leading actresses and designed to promote greater gender and racial diversity in STEAM fields. Polvino is currently producing the "Meaning in Madness" film series which centers around the systemic issues contributing to the mental health crisis facing young adults and teens today and the importance of meaning and purpose in their lives.Marisa is inspired by her two children and encourages them to follow their passions, pay attention to what matters most in life and to always work hard and be nice to people.KELLY SLATTERY Kelly Slattery, a native Canadian and songwriter by trade, made an interesting progression from writing music for such companies as Lionsgate, CBS and Disney, to writing screenplays and producing for film, to philanthropy and now, Barely Canadian, her social enterprise clothing line.Down for Life which premiered at the Toronto Film Festival, was Kelly's first feature, followed by subsequent Lionsgate projects like House of the Rising Sun and Cougars Inc, with Hijacked and Breaking Wind soon to follow, released by Anchor Bay.Kelly was a founding partner of Therapy Content, the production company for Dave Grohl's Sound City and Sonic Highways, and was fortunate to touch so many impactful products, although she eventually ventured off on her own after selling one of her TV comedies she co-created with Lee Aronsohn (co-creator of Two and a Half Men) in the room to ABC networks, along with signing a surf drama to Legendary Pictures. Whilst in development on her own projects, Kelly works as a consultant in the Film and TV space; developing, packaging and setting up projects at various studios.Kelly felt inspired to step into the nonprofit space years later, when she and her husband adopted their then 16 year old daughter from foster care. Starting at Venice Arts as the Director of Advancement, Kelly was quickly recruited by Film2Future as their Executive Director and went on to increase their operating budget by 83% in her first year while deciding to complete her family, Kelly and her husband foster to adopt her then 16 year old son.Barely Canadian was created to show their children that an idea can become a business and how to see an idea through to fruition. The moment friends and family got their hands on Barely Canadian, they quickly knew this business training idea had just become a company. As a Social Enterprise company that supports foster youth, it was important for the brand to feel as "home" and cozy as possible to align with their messaging about helping foster youth find their forever homes, hence Barely Canadian's mainstay of super soft clothing. Barely Canadian is proud to share that they source and hire all locally and donate 20% of our profits to foster youth organizations like Kidsave and Echoes of Hope.  OPC Flashcards:OPC Flashcards are on AmazonOPC Flashcards are on our site  If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.  ResourcesWatch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube!Lesley Logan websiteBe It Till You See It PodcastOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley LoganOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTubeProfitable Pilates Social MediaInstagramFacebookTik TokLinkedIn Episode Transcript:Lesley Logan 0:00  Hey Be It babe, what's up? Okay, I this is just I'm like glowing. I'm like can't stop smiling. I have two guests on today's interview. Two women who, gosh, their, their passion and purpose, like what they care so much about. It's like, freakin' like, it's contagious and like, like the only best way can get a contagion can be. Anyway (Lesley laughs) anyways, like it really is though like every time I get off a call with them I am sitting a little taller, flying a little higher, buzzing a little bit faster. And, and Brad actually joined today's interview as well. So we have a foursome. In fact, I met Kelly, because of Brad. And Kelly and Brad go way back in time. And Kelly is such a connector, which is why we're probably like, just to like kindred spirits there. But um, Kelly and Marisa have this amazing company Barely Canadian what you're gonna hear about. And I really can't wait for you to hear how they answer all their questions. Because I think that too often we're trying to figure out how do we organize all the thoughts? How do we organize all the dots before we start something. And that's not how things work. And even if you could connect all the dots, even if you had everything in place, and you're like, "Okay, I've got the plan. I've got the plan, here it is." Something is gonna come and rip that plan right out, water is gonna spill on that plan you're gonna miss, you're gonna lose a couple of those dots. And that's okay. And that's what makes that but it's also what makes you realize what's worth fighting for. And so these two women are super, super passionate about foster youth, and the organization's could save and echoes of hope. And they have a social enterprise, which is like they created a product that I can't wait for you to touch in your own lives. And it supports these organizations. And, you know, now more than ever, I think it's really important that we follow our passions and our purpose and it really does make you light up and make you want to show up when you're scared to death, to do something. So these two women are really doing something for a great cause. And they don't have all the answers to how they're going to do things but they are being it till they see it as they do it. And I'm really passionate about what they're doing. Brad and I are so freakin' stoked to be working with them and find different ways to collaborate with them and I can't wait for you to also witness that journey because we are still figuring it out. And that is what makes it super super fun and I can't wait to see how we can continue to support them in all our ways with our Profitable Pilates business and with OPC. I just the more more time and more excuse I can do to spend time with these women and what they're doing I will. So without further ado, here is our first two guests interview and with Brad joining in so it's special treat and I hope you enjoy it and I really can't wait to hear your takeaways. Please tag us, tag @barelycanadian. And let us know how this affected you? How this helped you? How this show do some light and some inspiration? All right, thank you so much. Here it is.Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guests will bring Bold, Executable, Intrinsic and Targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started.All right, Be It Till You See It listeners. We have a very exciting adventure for you right now. There has there's not only one guest, there are two guests and Brad's joining us. So we have (Brad: What? woot woot woot) we have an actual foursome happening (Lesley laughs) on this podcast. Um, you've got Kelly Slattery and Marisa Polvino, I hope I said their names correctly. And I am just really delighted to bring these two women to you. They are doing something so amazing. And there just proof that like taking an idea and just going for it no matter how many obstacles or what people might think about going into a somewhat crowded market. And they're doing it because they care so much about a special cause, I'm not let them tell you about but I just I had to have these women on because they're I think they're going to inspire you to Be It Till You See It and not let, not let anything get in your way. So Kelly and Marisa said thanks for being here. Can you each introduce yourselves?Kelly Slattery 4:37  Yeah, Marisa so you go ahead (Marisa: What?) and you'll talk... I always talk first. (Lesley laughs) You have to realize that I'm gonna be a gentle lady and say, "You talk first." (Lesley laughs)Marisa Polvino 4:46  Good morning Be It Till You See It people. Um, my name is Marisa Polvino. I am a film producer and content creator. I have a company called Straight Up Impact which creates thought provoking gain content around global issues that are most urgent. I also make films but I've been over the years moving more into the social impact space because my heart and my soul needs to be a little more fulfilled than what the customary film industry can do to one's heart and soul. (Lesley laughs) And Kelly and I've been friends for a long time and I and when she launched Barely Canadian. As a social enterprise company, I immediately wanted to jump on board with her and help build out one some of the most snugly, softest, comfy where ever but also one that provides money towards foster youth and supporting foster youth. And I happened to be making a short film about uncovering the systemic issues in the foster care system. And what we can do as a community to come together and help these foster youth live a fruitful, powerful, beautiful life after the foster care system after they age out. (Lesley: Oh) So that's about me and you can find me on Instagram at @marissapolvino and at @straightupimpact.Lesley Logan 6:07  Amazing. Okay, I want to dive into that but we have to we have to hear back from Kelly first. So Kelly, tell us how (Kelly: So many) got here.Kelly Slattery 6:15  Gosh such a tale. I'm a, I'm Canadian. My name is Kelly Slattery. And I came to America because I had a song in a Lionsgate Soundtrack, American Psycho 2. And I was an artist in Canada. So I was like, "I'm gonna move illegally to Canada, I mean to America," (Lesley laughs) to your country. And so I made the journey. It was interesting that later on in life, I actually wrote a TV show about that experience of being an illegal alien, it was about, it was about an illegal Canadian who lives in with illegal Mexican family and works in construction. We did sell it to ABC. I had the co-creator of Two and a Half Men and Big Bang, as you know, my showrunner. So I went from like, then I started producing films. I was a founder of a company that we produced for Dave Grohl. We did Sound City, we did Sonic Highways. But I left actually pretty much when I sold that show that I had written. And then we had another... Anyways, I've always been involved in entertainment, as a as a songwriter, as a singer, as a producer, and as a writer. And when we adopted our kids, initially, my daughter from foster care at the age of 16, I decided to convert my life to service and so I joined the nonprofit space, which was really interesting. And, and really challenging. And, and it's unique. Let me, let me just leave it there as calling it a very unique space, you know, but I learned a lot. And I learned that what I really want to do is something that makes a difference in the world. I always reference this film I had done for Lionsgate that I produced in Michigan, it was overnights, it was winter, it was exterior, it was awful, because (Lesley laughs) it was freezing and just like like physically traumatic, I would say just the cold even as a Canadian, which is why I'm called "Barely Canadian," because I'm always freezing. But anyways, I realize this ended up in the Walmart bin for 2.99 on sale. I gave two years of my life and my heart to this, I'm not doing this anymore. So trying to really find purpose in my life. When we adopted our son, we're actually in the process of adopting our son, we brought him into our family, we wanted to show them that an idea can become something and just with little steps and progression and just like due diligence of basic, you know actions every day or every week, you can build something. So that was the purpose of Barely Canadian was to show them how to be entrepreneurs, how to acquire basic business skills. And anyways, long and short people really liked the product and boom, it's it became a company. And we give 20% back to foster youth. And Marisa started coming to the pop ups I was doing and she just was like, "I love everything about this. Can I participate?" I'm like, "Hell yeah."Brad Crowell 8:59  Did you know, did you know each other prior?Kelly Slattery 9:01  Yeah, we had been engaged in some film projects together and and just became really fast friends. When Marisa moved out here from New York. SoMarisa Polvino 9:11  Yeah. I moved in New York, Kelly was the first one of the first people that I met outside... Well, wi... within industry, but outside of the industry friends that I had when I moved here and we fell in love immediately. It really was love at first sight.Lesley Logan 9:24  Well, (Kelly: Yeah) you all have that because I, Brad's known Kelly for a long time. But as soon as I got a call with you both I'm like, "Oh, I'm in love with these women. These women are amazing." (Marisa laughs) We are donating to their cause... (Lesley laughs)Brad Crowell 9:35  She was talking about you both for like a day and a half later. (Lesley: Yeah, yeah.) (Kelly: Oh my ...) It's really a great convo.Kelly Slattery 9:39  Well, we can find kindred spirits, right. Like I think we connect because we were connected already. (Lesley: Yeah) I think, you know, and we're taken by your gorgeous red hair. So that's why we're here. (Lesley laughs) Yeah, and then with Marisa the whites of her eyes were so white and I didn't want to shoot you know, but honestly the whites over eyes are so white. It's extraordinary. (Lesley: Oh my gosh) I remember that when I first met her.Lesley Logan 10:04  Oh, ladies, I love you... I so I want to go, Marisa, you said something. And maybe the two of you can talk about this, I kind of feel like working, doing a social enterprise, working in a nonprofit space trying to make an impact, you almost have to be like, act as if what you're doing is making the difference that you are hoping to make some day because it is so I don't know, I won't answer the question for you. But I feel like it's so hard to show up every day for a cause that has so much systemic problems, that if you don't act as if it's like, what you're doing is making the difference on a daily basis. It's kind of hard. So can you speak to that? Like, what is it take to? I think a lot of people want a part of social impact. And like, what does it take to do that? Like, how do you start?Marisa Polvino 10:50  You want me to start? (Lesley: Yeah) Well, I mean, I think everything is hard, right? Whatever, whatever you endeavor to do, is, it is like pushing that boulder up the hill, and finding certain projects, be it in the film side of the things, or in an apparel line. If you have a passion around what that product is bringing to the marketplace. And if you strongly believe that that messaging, that brand messaging around it, any kind of a product is one that the world needs, and that it can enact a change that is most vital, then it's easy to get behind it. Because everything, everything is difficult. And you know, somebody, many, many years ago, you know, one the persistence of vision, but two like, if you do what you love, the money, the success, whatever it is that you're hoping to achieve from it will follow. And to not just lead with your passion, lead with what you love to do. And what the messaging is and what what that content, that material, that peril, whatever that is brings to the world can add value to your soul and add value to your audience that you're presenting it to. And I think what's really easy is you know, like I'm wearing this sweatshirt. Yes, it is like shameless promotion. But it's also like really super comfortable. I was taking my dog for a walk earlier, I had the sound like, "Oh, I'm just... I was not intending to wear it." but like, "Oh my God, it's so comfortable. I don't want to take it off." (Lesley: Okay...) And ...Lesley Logan 12:22  I have to say yes because I have three Barely Canadian sweaters and I wore them five days in a row. Like I just, I went through a cycle ... (Lesley laughs) (Marisa: I can't take it off. I was waiting) Kelly Slattery 12:31  You know actually ... Lesley texting you need one for Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, (Lesley: Yeah) Saturday, Sunday, like the designated and I thought we should do that. Remember how they used to do underwear? (Lesley: Yeah)Marisa Polvino 12:41  It has the labeled underwear? I was just thinking. Lesley Logan 12:42  ... I'm so glad you picked up on that because I was like, "I hope she knows I'm talking about. I'm talking about when you were a kid, the underwear." (Lesley laughs)Kelly Slattery 12:51  Yeah. Yeah, (Brad: That's a...) But a kind of, I think it's a great idea - is a fun little throwback though, you know. (Marisa: I love it) Why not?Brad Crowell 12:57  I think somehow I missed that one.Lesley Logan 12:59  I don't think they had it for the boys. I think it was a (Lesley laughs) 80s girl thing.Kelly Slattery 13:03  ... wonder rose. We had wonder rose. (Marisa: We had wonder rose.)Brad Crowell 13:06  Wonder rose. No idea what that is.Kelly Slattery 13:08  It gotta be in northeast thing. (Marisa: ... underwear)Lesley Logan 13:11  So um, so you know, Kelly, you you started Barely Canadian. Before that you mentioned you wrote songs. And you know, you have this incredible story about like, a vision you had you you were in your grandmother's house? And can you actually talk about that? Because I do think, you know, Barely Canadian came from the all the little steps along the way. So can we go back in time a little bit.Kelly Slattery 13:35  It's so funny. You should say that too because I do think that Barely Canadian is everything I tend to do is like an ode to my country, to my country. (Lesley laughs) Like it's always like a salute, some kind of call back, some kind of like love letter, you know, to Canada. But but when I was, I had wanted, ultimately I, I'll go back even a little bit more just to disappoint you in lengthening the story. But so I... had moved to Ottawa. I had heard about an open mic across the street. A friend of mine said, "You should go." I said, "No, I'm not, I don't sing anymore." Long and short she made me go. The place asked me to start playing there the next day. I hadn't like sung in forever. My sister came down heard me playing at this residency. Bought me a guitar. And she said, "You need to actually learn how to play the guitar because you cannot depend on other people." With from that moment, nine months later, I recorded my very first album. I'd written all the songs. I recorded the album, and suddenly I found myself in HMV superstore. I was the, I was the only album blockbuster carried nationally. But I did all of that myself, right. So, I believe in, I think that was the empowering moment. You learn how to learn, play the guitar, you learn how to record yourself, you learn how to do all of this shit. Because if you think you can bank on anybody else, you cannot and it's really empowering is as disabling as that might feel. So for me, I had received this guitar my grandmother had passed. I'm sitting as I offer didn't say amongst a garden of clothes on the floor, just kind of distraught but watching the Grammys on this really shitty TV. And I thought, "I'm going to go there." Like, "I'm going to go there one day for sure." You know, and I wrote this song called My Life. This life is on its way, it's actually on my first album, and, and it was like this kind of up, happy, happy song. Cut to two years later, I'm invited to the Grammys by EMI, which is pretty incredible, you know, then cut to about 15 years later, and we had done a film with Dave Grohl, that the album was nominated for a Grammy. And so we went to the Grammys. And coincidentally, I brought Marisa as my date.Marisa Polvino 15:40   (Lesley: I love it.) That's right, I remember that ... (Brad: How about that.)Kelly Slattery 15:44  So you know, manifestation, I totally believe that it comes from a deep rooted place, and that what you focus on will most certainly reveal itself. But at the same time, if you if you don't focus on it for a moment, don't worry, like your path is there. The road is windy, the road is rough. I feel like there's a rhyme in there somewhere (Lesley: Yeah) that I should finish with ...Lesley Logan 16:06  Thank you for sharing that because I do, I do think a lot of people think it's so linear. I don't know why we think anything is linear, and nothing is ever done that way, like, (Lesley laughs) you know, but we anticipate that and so when we hit an obstacle, or we get distracted or something in life happens, and we have to take a pause from that. Thank you for sharing that, like, you know, don't worry, it's your the path is there. Because sometimes it picks up in a spot we didn't realize, you know, so. Okay. I want to talk about you both got involved, maybe for different reasons. And I would love to hear it in helping foster youth. And I want to hear like, what, what was that? Because I think some people we've had people on before talking about working with charities and thing like things like that. It's like, there's so many things you could be focusing on. Like Marisa said, "She wants to make an impact." There are so many problems in the world. How did you choose this? What what led you to that? And, you know, can you share more about that?Kelly Slattery 17:03  I've always had an obsession with this notion within America, which is family is everything and this obsession that there's a whole population of young kids, if family is everything, and I don't have it, where does that leave me? Right? (Lesley: Yeah) So I've always just kind of really focused on that. And when I first moved to America, I start tried to start a charity called Home Base. And it was you don't have to make a commitment to have children live in your home. But how about you just become a home base? How about at Christmas, on their birthday? They have somebody that they can connect with, somebody when they want to buy their first car? How do I go about doing that? So that was what home base was about. And in the process of trying to put this together? A friend of mine was on the board of Echoes of Hope, which is coincidentally one of the charities that we do support through our efforts at Barely Canadian, and said, "Why reinvent the wheel?A really good friend of mine has this nonprofit. Why don't you meet with her?" Her name is Stacy Robitaille, who I now call sissy, because she is like my sissy. And we first met, we just had this immediate connection as as you do, as we do, you know, with those people that are meant to be in our lives. So I started volunteering with foster youth. I'd always wanted to adopt a foster child. And coincidentally, I think what helped put that into place was meeting my husband on our very first date, learning that his mother was in foster, and learning that he also wanted to adopt a foster child. So that was a big deal for me, because as you get older, and you decide to focus on career, instead of personal life, you think, "Gosh, I've missed the opportunity to have a child. But I, I've always wanted to adopt and have a child, I hope I can meet a guy that is okay with me not being able to have my own child." Right? That's the big fear for women as you get older. And so to actually have that first date with him, and that was very important to him. And a goal of his as well in life was incredible. So cut to what I guess three years into our marriage, we started to begin the process of becoming a foster parent, which is a very long process, but a very worthy process. And like anything else, little steps, and suddenly you're there, you know, after a year's time, and of course we we are a foster adopt family, we have fostered a couple of other kids and adopted or adopting our son and we have adopted our daughter. So you know, the whole population of foster youth out there is important to us. We helped our kids and our help kids helped us, find our forever home because truly kids save created our family for us. But within barely ...Brad Crowell 19:35  Kidsave as the organization?Kelly Slattery 19:37  Yeah, Kidsave is how you can meet older kids to adopt. Because otherwise they're going to age out. And so yeah, it was just ...Brad Crowell 19:46  Can you talk a little bit more about this age out thing and just, you know, (Lesley: Yeah) what does that mean? I think, I think a lot of people ... like we (Kelly: I'm okay) I grew up hearing about adopting and then I sort of heard about fostering but didn't really I understand the concept of it. And I certainly never understood the ramifications of aging out.Kelly Slattery 20:05  Yeah. So if you don't find it forever family, by the time you hit 18 years old, even if you're in a foster home that you might have been domiciled for five years, but that family more often than not go, "Okay, you're 18. See you later." And they don't have ...Brad Crowell 20:20  Domiciled means actually living with family.Kelly Slattery 20:23  Living within that home, within that family. But by the time they're 18, it's like, "Okay, sorry, but we're not kind of covering this anymore." I think some people quite sadly, foster because it's an income for them, versus wanting to really help a child ... Brad Crowell 20:40  So (Lesley: Yeah) while, so while the kids with the family that they're getting the families getting a check?Kelly Slattery 20:45  The family is. And by the way, it's it's a minuscule check, it's nothing that's going to be substantial. But if you are super low income, (Brad: mm-hmm) and, you know, maybe even disabled, sometimes, like, you know, it's extra income for them. And, (Brad: mm-hmm) and I've met people that were super low income and not necessarily physically capable, who are incredible foster parents, you know, (Brad: sure, sure) so it's not to say that that's always the case.Brad Crowell 21:10  Yeah, yeah, I don't want to paint a bad light, but that there is (Kelly: Yeah, not at all) there there is, you know, some ...Lesley Logan 21:15  But the way the system (Brad: room) works, when they turn 18, no matter, no matter, like, you know, unless the person that is with them is able to afford to keep taking care of them and has the space, they're going to age out because they're no (Kelly: Yeah) longer being supported by the system.Brad Crowell 21:29  Yeah, I guess that's, that's fair. I mean, it may simply be a matter of finances as well, maybe they cannot continue to afford to support them.Kelly Slattery 21:37  Well, that's the there you go, you know, there's a plethora of reasons. And so it's when you age out that the state does give the child some money, depending on the state is how much money they're going to give them. They do have healthcare till their, you know, 25, they do have, you know, a train ticket or bus pass or whatever. But think about, what is it maybe $1,000 that they get a month, you're 18 years old? Think about, you know, yes, our generation also, we, if you had parents, we felt very capable of leaving the house at that time, we also knew we had this amazing safety net behind us. These kids do not, (Lesley: Yeah) not at all. So so yeah, so we, we want to help kids, we want to encourage people to be open to learning about Kidssafe, which is you go in the weekends, you meet these kids, you play board games with them, make vision boards, get to know who they are. And you might even feel inspired and think I think I could be that child's parent, you know, and that's what those meetings are about. Kidsave actually has a Emmy winning documentary on A & E that we were actually featured in, but the process of adopting. And it's really, really interesting, some kids get adopted, some kids don't. But part of what we want to do at Barely Canadian is if you don't find your forever home with the family, it doesn't mean you can't create your own forever home. And so we want to help with that. Hence, our fosterpreneur program that we're developing. Here's how you can do it on your own. You know, you don't have to bank on other people, right, kind of coming back to that if you don't have the family to bank on, bank on yourself, and still always bank on yourself. (Lesley: Yeah)Marisa Polvino 23:09  Always think that yourself. (Lesley: Yeah, Marisa ...) I think what's interesting, just to add on that is, you know, these kids in foster care, they have a staff of people, you know, they have their casa, they have their social worker, they have their therapists, (Kelly: attorney) their attorneys, they have a whole staff, (Brad: Wow!) but they don't have a person, (Kelly: Right) like who's that person that's in their life, that is without economic gain. Right? Who's that person that's not there to get the paycheck to be there for that kid? And where's the community around that child or those groups of children that can give them the love, the self worth, the community, the skill set, so that when they do age out, they have a shot out there. And they are not then repurposing the foster care system because a lot of these kids that don't have that come out with substance abuse problems, they're teen mothers, those kids go back into the foster care system. And so it's a vicious cycle. So getting these kids like through this fosterpreneural program, giving them the skill set, and the self value, the self worth to actually follow a dream, see it through and create a life for themselves outside of a system is a real huge goal. And we think what we can do as just individuals want a couple of people providing this, this life for kids outside of a system to give them something so much more than living off of a system that's not really there to support them.Kelly Slattery 24:39  And to kind of piggyback on that, just that we're just learning ecommerce. We're just figuring this out, and it's new to us. So, I think there's value to that when teaching a young person, you know, gosh, I'm you know, how much older than you and I'm just learning this you're young with a fresh mind. You grew up with technology. So also kind of like I think adults show that vulnerability like we're just figuring this out too. And I think (Marisa: Yeah) it's a great way for anyways has been a great with for my kids to learn, you know, as Marisa knows them well. Just seeing how they've found growth and knowledge through this process.Lesley Logan 25:11  I think you're 100% correct there, because so many times I work with people, and they're like, "Well, who am I to teach? So and so I'm just started." And it's like, you just have to be one step ahead. And, (Lesley laughs) you know, like, you don't, you know, like, um, this one woman I listened to on a podcast, I can't I can't remember which episode it was... But she said, "If you want to learn the piano, you're not gonna hire Billy Joel to teach you." Right? Like, you're gonna hire someone who knows the key, like the first few keys, like, that's who's gonna teach you and then you'll, you know, like, have an either they'll grow and you grow with them? Or do you find the next one, but like, I think, I think that vulnerability is so great for kids to see and also see that like, not everyone knows everything. And the people doing it are often making big guesses. And so it kind of allows them, maybe it ditches imposter syndrome, or allows them to see possibility, I think that's really cool.Kelly Slattery 26:03  Yeah, and it's funny, you should say that too, because it's also fun to do things together. So even though what will be a little bit step ahead, when you have somebody doing it with you, it feels safer, it feels like you have that team, you have that support. And that's something I'm really enjoying, with Marisa wanting to get involved in the company. You know, it's, it's, it's fun to bounce something off somebody, and it's fun to have that support. And also even, you know, adults tend to be, parents tend to be accountability coaches. So that's the other thing that you kind of offer when you're when you're teaching a young person. So but yeah, we're, we're, we're excited. We're building this out, and we're pumped, and we can't wait to talk to you guys more about it as well, knowing that you also do business coaching, you (Lesley: Yeah) know, in a really, really unique way.Brad Crowell 26:49  Before we get into the fosterpreneur concept, which I think is really exciting. And I can't wait to hear more about the the adoption or the excitement of the customers looking at Barely Canadian. Do you think that the social aspect of the company as a whole and the story behind it are what are lighting people up? Or is it really like the sweaters are just that amazing? Or is it a combination of both?Kelly Slattery 27:22  I, okay, first of all, when people feel our product, they literally go, "Oh my God, this is so soft, relevant, soft and cozy, and the feeling of home." Right? Because we're all about finding forever home. So it's all about feeling at home. But I definitely think that our kind of unique proposition as it were, is that we are in fact, an authentic story. I mean, we we started this to teach the kids, we really are a foster adopt family. You know, coincidentally, Marisa is doing this documentary on foster care and learning so much about it. That she's she's feeling fired up. So, I think when we, I do think when we share the story of how we came to be, why we came to be which, if I might make mention, we're Barely Canadian, because I am always freezing this I kind of intimated off the top. But additionally, my husband was like you are, we just need to make you some summer mittens, summer sweaters for California summer, because (Brad laughs) you just cannot handle it. And that was that's our first product are these super soft sweaters and super soft mittens that Lesley was wearing. And she gave us this great line. She was like, "I've been smitten." You know and (Lesley, Marisa and Kelly laughs) "we're starting to use that. I love it." (Brad: That's funny.) But but I think all of those really authentic pieces make a difference that that is what makes us stand out. So in answer to your question, I think it is definitely those pieces folded in and presented in the package of real and heart directed, which is would you agree, Marissa?Marisa Polvino 28:50  Absolutely. Absolutely. I think you know, in talking about a crowded marketplace, like you know, there's a brand that continues to come up every time I'm not going to give them any kind of nod on this because it's all about Barely Canadian. But you know, there's the brands that come up and there's the cops. Like, well, is it this? Or does it fit like that? Or, (Brad: sure) you know, how much of it is sustainable? And there's, you know, all the things that come up and it's like we can, we are our brand. The it's super soft. It's very comfy. We're giving back to foster youth. We love it. You're gonna love it and it's for everybody. There's not just one demographic that's being targeted. Everybody wants to feel soft and cozy and warm and feel like family. (Lesley: Yeah) What the brand is all about.Lesley Logan 29:35  Your sweatshirts are unisexy. Correct? (Marisa: It's unisexy.) (Brad: Yeah, they are.) (Lesley and Brad laughs)Marisa Polvino 29:40  And luckily, it's okay for boys to wear rainbows today. (Lesley: Yeah.)Brad Crowell 29:45  So when, when I, when I first saw Barely Canadian, it was through I think an email or maybe it was a post by Stasia and I just clicked it and open it and I saw you know that you were I think I don't know if she was too talking about you or somehow I knew you were involved Kelly. And, and I just opened up your Instagram and I was looking at it. And I was like, "This is so cool," you know, and I was really connected to the colors of it. And I, you know, I saved it and I showed it to Lesley. And it wasn't for like another month that I actually looked at your website. And when I went to the website, I didn't actually know any of the story. And, and I, I started reading a little more, and I and I started to understand like, Oh, wow, it's, it says, it's almost as if the, the profit of it is was like the last thing. It wasn't driven by this idea of like, "I'm gonna start a business so I could go make money." Like it wasn't, it doesn't come across that way. And that was really interesting to me, as an entrepreneur who I've started, like, a lot of businesses to do exactly that. And and this was, was really a surprise. And then the more I started understanding, I thought what a cool example for, you know, some kids plus, you know, what a cool project to have with them. Because it made me then begin to wonder like, "Who built the website? Was it you or was it the kids?" Or like, "Who wrote the copy? Was it them?" Like, "Who picks the products? Was it them?" Obviously, they're in like the photos and they're trying the things on. I thought, "Man, this is a really interesting journey." And I think it's really amazing, you know, and when we got the products, I was like, "Okay, (Kelly laughs) alright, this is cool."Kelly Slattery 31:27  I love that observation, because I hadn't framed it that way before. But that is exactly how it happened. So I just love that. You're kind of helping us even understand what you're right. We kind of went backwards, right? We started with "Let's do this for the kids. We want to do something for the kids. Oh, right now, this is a business. How cool is that?" You know, and so no, I love that. I really appreciate that insight. You guys are very good at perspective, (Lesley laughs) marketing and cool things like the smittens. (Lesley: Yeah)Marisa Polvino 31:59  I think also like do the, you know, this is a new thing, as you're talking just about being being an entrepreneur. Right? And trying a lot of different businesses. I think a part of one is like, figuring out what is our competitive edge? We don't know. So it is, it's about trial and error, and getting products and maybe, you know, the rainbow on the back of this sweatshirt isn't big enough. So yesterday we were together. And how can we like augment, like turns into lemonade, right? It's not perfect, but let's make it, let's add to it. That just enhances kind of what our messaging is. Let's take it and evolve it and learn as we go. And we're like, "Oh, next time. We'll, we'll do it this way." But by the but then maybe the zippers won't be right. So then (Lesley: Well, so ...) figure out how to make the zippers right. And the whole thing is a good entrepreneur and building the business. It's like, shits gonna go wrong (Brad: Yeah) and have to pick up and roll roll with it and figure out how to make it right.Brad Crowell 32:55  And now you got a hundred sweaters that have the thing wrong. You're like, "Oh my God, what do we do with all these? We put the money in, we got to get rid of them somehow." (Marisa laughs) (Marisa: Yeah) Like, yeah, it's a journey.Lesley Logan 33:03  Yeah, I mean, we've we've gotten to the... what we do create product. And it's always, it's an interesting process, I'll say, but we around here like to say, "Perfect is Boring." And like all of our (Marisa laughs) all of our merch that says that people look at it weird because it's on backwards. And I was at the TSA (Lesley laughs) and I was like showing the guy my ID and he's like, looking at me and like, you never want the TSA guy to look at you funny. Like, that's not a good time. (Marisa laughs) And I was like, well, he goes, "What is your hat say?" And I was like, "Oh, it's like, perfect is boring, dude you had me scared." (Lesley laughs) It's like, "Oh my God, I'm getting pulled into a room." (Marisa: Yeah) Um, but but we say that be I say that because like, the rainbow might not be perfect. But like, is there a perfect rainbow? No, like, all the rainbows are different like, and I do think you know, what I love what you're talking about. I hope everyone who's listening is hearing this, they didn't actually have all of the plans in place. They're like, we love helping this group of people. We want to create something that helps this group of people. And we like soft things. So this is what we're gonna start with. And so like ... (Marisa laughs) I think ...Kelly Slattery 34:06  It's exactly it. (Kelly laughs) (Lesley: I think ...) (Marisa: And I'm always cold.)Lesley Logan 34:09  Yeah. You know, I've been wearing my spins around the house. And (Lesley laughs) I'm like, I'm like, "This is perfect because it's a Vegas house." It's either it's too cold, it's too cold. You have AC on or now it's, you know, 40 degrees outside. So, but I think people get stuck on why have to have it all figured out. I have to make sure I have all the things in place. And like, more now more than ever, I think it's actually just about getting started and, and putting the thing out there and hearing what the questions are because then you hear people go, well, you know, like, what's your, what's this is like this and then you can like, however you argue back or whatever you say back helps you identify another answer.Kelly Slattery 34:48  Yeah, no, it's so true. It's so true. And then it's funny because when we do introduce Kidsave and Echoes Of Hope to other organizations or companies like your incredible company, both of your companies and your multiple companies. It people are inspired and they want to get behind it, you guys made an actual substantial donation. You know, in December, it was really incredible. And so for us, that was our big we'd been alive for all of three months, we kicked off end of September, I had some serious health issues in October. And, and then, and then by December, we were able to donate to both, you know, nonprofits (Brad: Wow!) and but but but that was just one piece of it. But then you guys did this massive surprise of like, "What Kidsave? What oh Echos?" And giving these donations anyways, that that that those are the those the fields, that's what it's all about for us, you know. So you're right, when you're leading with, with with the heart, when you're leading with the true messaging purpose, and derivative of why this all began, that's when you'll always win. It's almost like when you're writing. Like in television, you have that log line. That log line is so hard to do, right? It's such a hard succinct thing to really pack everything into a sentence or two ...Brad Crowell 36:03  Yeah. As was I say for Tracy out there. (Lesley: I know ...) (Lesley laughs) I'm stealing, I'm stealing (Lesley: It's from Smartlace) from Smartlace here. (Lesley: for Tracy in Milwaukee) Explain to us what a logline is.Kelly Slattery 36:13  All right, let's talk to Tracy .... (Marisa: Let's talk Tracy Milwaukee. What do you want ...) Yeah. What's up Milwaukee? (Brad and Lesley laughs) As you're, as you're going along, it's always go back. What is that logline, you can't completely depart from that. And that's similar to if it's all about the heart, it's all about doing something that makes you feel like you're doing something right in this world. Stick with that, you know, always make certain you stay at the core of it. That's what is the goal because ...Brad Crowell 36:36  I think we would call our our listeners probably be more familiar with an elevator pitch where it's like, you know, (Marisa: Right) how do you explain it in one or two sentences?Lesley Logan 36:46  (Kelly: Right, right. Yeah and it's true.) I want it. So Marisa, you're working on a documentary? Is that how you got attracted to this particular cause? Or like, because I think, you know, you saw this and you're like, "I'm jumping on board with that." And I, and I want to point that out, because I do think sometimes people maybe don't know how to get become part of something. And so I want to kind of go into that, like, how did you go, "Okay, Kelly, I'm in." (Lesley laughs)Marisa Polvino 37:15  Um, well, one in terms of foster care in, in general, I've been watching Kelly and have gone to some of the fundraisers. And I've also been with her through this process of her adopting both of these kids. And it's really incredible, what, what it takes to become a foster parent. How, how much and how difficult if they don't make it easy. Right? And these kids are also coming from a place of trauma. And, and, in taking that in and taking that on is something really incredible. I think like I honor Kelly for creating such a beautiful warm home for both of these kids. And I think she's created that kind of a home for everybody that's in her life, right? She's has just the widest network and the most incredible group of friends and family and loved ones and created family that that surrounds her. So I've always been inspired by her. I mean Kelly changed my life and I know you (Marisa: Yeah, me too) know that. But you literally took me down a different path because of a text message from like, after like a year later, after we had met. Changed, literally, that's like a very defining moment ...I kind believe that. (Kelly: I love connecting. I love it.) Yeah, she's, she's really a wonderful, beautiful, powerful spirit. And we've been for years wanting to work on something. And it has always been in the film side and the content side. (Lesley: Yeah) Let's find a project to do together. And we have some projects that we've been dancing around for a really long time. And so just this the opportunity for Barely Canadian, you know, just to be with her and to help her I mean, started off with like, "Hey, let me just help you. I want to come help sell... sell a sweatshirts. And I love these, I want to promote it." And, and I'd also been thinking like, "What, what do I want to do ... in two years, three years in the making?" And of like, "What do I want to do in addition to being a filmmaker? I want to do something. I don't know what it is. I have all these skill sets. What do I want to do with it?" And when this popped up, it just was something that felt right. It felt something like I'm just just soulfully, naturally, authentically felt like something I wanted to become a part of. And we had already had this friendship and a shared vision and love of have the similar similar things, similar people. So that was an easy thing. In terms of making a film about foster care is. It's an overall series about the systemic issues that are contributing to the mental health crisis of our (Lesley: Yeah) youth today. And so we've already done two films. One of them was, "Have you, have the education system?" And the other one was "The pharmaceutical drug industry and the overprescribing of drugs for our youth today." And then, because of what Kelly was doing in foster care, we were like the foster care system is such a broken system. And it's a view of like, "What are we doing to our kids? (Lesley: Yeah) And how can we tell a story through the voice of a child," because all of these films are through the voice of kids, to let them share their experience and give them a voice, empower them to take control of their destinies. And so I think it all like I think everything was very symbiotic because that's the right word. (Brad: Right) (Lesley: Yeah) Like, is it all synergistic in terms of how it all happened. Lesley Logan 40:47  But I also just want to point out, in case someone, like, missed it. She'd been looking for something for a couple of years, she was like, "What (Marisa: Yeah) else am I doing?" And I think we get stuck on I don't know the answer, I need, like, need to like, and you I'm sure you weren't sitting around twiddling your thumbs, you were working, you're making these films and you but you had this question in your mind, "What am I going to do? What am I going to do?" And so then, when this came up, your body was like, "This, this is, this sounds really good. This feels really good." Oh, so it happens to be really soft. So, I think I thank you for sharing that.Marisa Polvino 41:17  So it was also... Can I just add like, it was also like it this is for everybody, cuz it gets like it can, you can start pulling your hair out. Like, "I want to do. I don't know what I want to do. I have to do something." But it was also like, "I want it to be a product, like a physical product that I can get behind and sell like a product that people are going to want, a product that people are going to need, a product that they don't even know that they need that they want." And when this happened, I was like, "This is so weird." Like, this is actually the product and I never viewed it as, "Oh, this is the product." It just felt like, "Oh, my God, light bulb. Hello." This is what you've been putting out to the universe, (Lesley: Yeah) energetically.Lesley Logan 41:57  Yeah. That's I mean, and that's just it goes back to what Kelly's saying earlier. It's like, the path will find you. Like it's okay, it's like you're not focused on it 24/7. It's going to find you. I have got chills. Ladies, you guys are... Your lines are friggin' amazing in powerhouses. And I, I have I cannot believe that Barely Canadian is only from September, I feel like I'm like this been around like, I'm in. (Lesley laughs)Kelly Slattery 42:18  I know, it's it's ... (Marisa: ... summer line) Yeah, we, um, we launched in September, by October, Nov... No by November, we had like a winter line. (Brad: Yeah) Let's get into the next season real quick. (Brad laughs) And it's been, it just kind of happened really quickly. It was so organic. It's really everybody's reaction to the product is really and it's not just the product. It's the, I daresay community, because we don't have that yet. We're so new, you guys have built this gorgeous community, you know, and you guys are so authentic with what you're doing. And I can't say we have a community yet, but we have, there's just an energy when people get engaged with us. (Lesley: Yeah) (Brad: Sure) And what we want to do, they want to also you know, participate and and so it's not, when you buy one of our products that that helps you know, a kid find a forever home. And that's a wonderful thing. But it's kind of, I don't know, where I don't know how or why. And this isn't speaking very much to what you're trying to kind of touch on because, you know, you're trying to help people understand how to get to where they need to go. Right? And so, so just kind of letting it be and whatever it's going to become, I feel what it's going to become, I just can't name it yet, right. But I do hope it's the kind of community that you guys have. It's just so flush and full of heart and authenticity.Lesley Logan 43:35  I think that you actually just explained what I'm trying to help people do. So you're literally being it till you see it meaning, you're just being you're you're the love, you're the drive, you're the, you're the feeling you want people to have around you, you're already doing that and tell we see where this is going. So actually think you're exactly what I want people to hear, what exactly what I want people to see because sometimes it's not as easy as acting like a CEO, you know, sometimes as easy as acting like, you know, you are the business owner. Sometimes it is a little bit more complex, a little convoluted, but you have the passion, the story and the love. And you're you're literally just being all of those things to see what comes next. What comes next for Barely Canadian? What comes next for all these charities and these kids? And so I thank you for (Lesley laughs) for sharing that because like I said what I hear I don't know, Brad, what do you think?Brad Crowell 44:25  Yeah. Well, and also I think we haven't touched on the fosterprenuer bit. So I think we're gonna have to have you back on to dive into that a little more, you know, down the road. But you know, I think well, I'm going to ask Lesley's question here. We ask every guest this, if you were to give our listeners one or two BE IT action items. BE IT being bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted action items that you have been doing or that you have tips for them when you were starting this pro... you know, Barely Canadian. What would you offer them?Kelly Slattery 45:10  For me, be bold, is just be you, you know. You can't, you can't please everybody all the time, let alone every time, let alone any time. So do the best you can and be you. I always like to reference that, as I always put the great American poets Nikki - "You do you," you know. You do you, I mean, the most kind of perhaps ill equipped person to give life advice at that time when this girl (Lesley laughs) was on Jersey shores. But nonetheless, that is the most succinct way I could think of, you know, to how to live your life. But I would also say, you know, my dad always said, "The harder you work, the luckier you get." And that's what you tend to find, you know, in Canada, where we like to align ourselves with our great hero - Terry Fox, and you just kind of put your head down and work. And when you look up, you're often surprised what you built, you know, but just focus on what you're doing, put your head down and do the work. And every time you look up, you're going to be shocked, like, "Wow, and now we're here." This whole working thing, this diligence, this, just focusing on the task at hand really works.Lesley Logan 46:17  That's so true.Marisa Polvino 46:19  Love that. I love your snooky. Something that I think about often is this quote, "Fear Eats the Soul." And so I think a lot about that, because it can be really scary to start something new, and put yourself out there. And so I always put fear in the back in my back pocket. So that would be one thing I would say is, "Don't let fear guide you." It's a false narrative. Show up. That's the first step. Just show up. Show up for yourself and follow your gut. And stay true to your vision. Like persistence of vision is there and allow yourself to fall down, make mistakes, learn from, learn from the mistakes and just keep showing up every single day.Brad Crowell 47:05  I already feels like that's been happening with Barely Canadian in such a good way because of the way it's taking shape. It's really exciting.Lesley Logan 47:15  Yeah, and that's so beautiful. Just I mean like that, just like put your, put your stuff at the market, go to the thing, like get in the room like (Lesley laughs) (Kelly: Yeah) sometimes the universe ...Marisa Polvino 47:25  It's the people that show up, that win. Truly most people don't show up.Kelly Slattery 47:30  Yeah, just like buying a scratch and win. (Lesley and Kelly laughs)Lesley Logan 47:36  Oh my gosh. Ladies, okay, real quick. Where can people find you? On Instagram, it's @barelycanadian?Kelly Slattery 47:43  So at @barelycanadian on Instagram. I'm at @kellyslattery but really I just care about at @barelycanadian and then barelycanadian.com is our website. And if you happen to spell it with a bear instead of a bear so b e a r versus b a r e l y. Don't worry, you'll still land with us. We still will catch you. We got you. (Lesley laughs)Lesley Logan 48:04  Way to, way to grab the URLs. And Marisa, you're @marisapalvino at Instagram, on Instagram?Marisa Polvino 48:10  Yeah, in Instagram and at @straightupimpact.Lesley Logan 48:14  Okay, I'm with Brad we're having you back. We'll have to do the fosterpreneur and and just also here like what's going on because, um, y'all we are very much going to be involved with these women and what they're doing... I'm really, there's it's so many different passions and impacts I've wanted to make in this planet that you know, not always teaching Pilates can help. (Lesley laughs) So being involved in different ways and collaborating is huge and, and we'll share those things as they come up. But um, definitely take the, check out the links in the show notes. And check out Barely Canadian and grab yourself some smittens and a summer sweater and, and y'all until next time, Be It Till You See It.Marisa Polvino 48:51  Be It Till You See It. (Brad: Bye now.)Kelly Slattery 48:53  Be It Till You See It. Thank you.Marisa Polvino 48:55  Thank you so much. Bye.Lesley Logan 48:58  That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review. And follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcasts. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the @be_it_pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day!'Be It Till You See It' is a production of 'As The Crows Fly Media'.Brad Crowell 49:31  It's written produced, filmed and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell. Our Associate Producer is Amanda Frattarelli.Lesley Logan 49:42  Kevin Perez at Disenyo handles all of our audio editing.Brad Crowell 49:46  Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music. And our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.Lesley Logan 49:55  Special thanks to our designer Jaira Mandal for creating all of our visuals (which you can't see because this is a podcast) and our digital producer, Jay Pedroso for editing all video each week so you can.Brad Crowell 50:07  And to Angelina Herico for transcribing each of our episodes so you can find them on our website. And, finally to Meridith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time.Transcribed by https://otter.aiSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Summary: Kelly McGrath discusses Nonviolent Communication and how it benefits her life, her mediation practice, and her clients. Nonviolent communication is it's a method of communication that was founded and created by Dr. Marshall Rosenberg and it has four components. Observations, feelings, needs, and requests. Your observation versus your evaluations, so the things you would see if a video was being taken of something, that's the observation, what actually occurred. And then we all put our spin on that in our mind, based on our past family of origin beliefs and other beliefs. So those are the evaluations that we make, or the judgements that we make about the observations. Your feelings, and your feelings point to needs that are being met or not met, so feelings and needs. And those needs are universal all over the world, needs such as support and kindness and consideration, joy, beauty, things that everyone can understand. And requests. So, requests versus demands. A request is something you want someone else to do to get your need met, and if they decline that request, you're okay with it. You know it's a request if you're okay with them saying no. Welcome Kelly McGrath Honestly Kelly I'm very impressed with your background and what you're up to, so I'm going to let you explain because I want to be sure it's highlighted in a way that really expresses what you do. K: Well thanks and I'm very happy to be here. I'm a mediator and a peace-loving lawyer. I have my own practice Kelly McGrath Law, and we really guide people through the most challenging conversations of their lives, so they stay out of court. And I use all my background, so I'm an integrative lawyer, which means that I am very holistic, I bring all of my learning, not just my legal education, but all of my background with me and into my practice. So, I have education and skills in trauma and resilience and in nonviolent communication which is a way of showing up in the world that removes the judgment and evaluation and is based on universal human needs. So, I really treat my clients with all of my background, not just my legal expertise. And I do a lot of training on communication skills for parents and foster parents and teens and couples. V: That's fascinating. Absolutely fascinating. So, our session today is on nonviolent communication. Would you explain a little of what that means? K: Sure, it's a method of communication that was founded and created by Dr. Marshall Rosenberg and it has four components. Your feelings, and your feelings point to needs that are being met or not met, so feelings and needs. And those needs are universal all over the world, needs such as support and kindness and consideration, ah, joy, beauty, things that everyone can understand. And then your observation versus your evaluations, so the things you would see if a video was being taken of something, that's the observation, what actually occurred. And then we all put our spin on that in our mind, based on our past family of origin beliefs and other beliefs. So those are the evaluations that we make, or the judgements that we make about the observations. So, observations, evaluations, requests. So, requests versus demands.  What a request is. A request is something you want someone else to do to get your need met, and if they decline that request, you're okay with it. You know it's a request if you're okay with them saying no. If you make a request, what you think is a request and someone says no and then you're mad or something bad happens for the other person, you stonewall them, that that was really a demand. So, talking about feelings and needs and faux feelings which are things that we were taught that we say are feelings that really have that layer of judgment and evaluation on them and blame someone else. And those are really not feelings. Feelings are sensations in our body, like joy, anger, frustration, and things like that. Faux feelings are things like when someone says, “I feel neglected”, Or “I feel abandoned.” Or “I feel disrespected.” Or “I feel abused.” Now, a disclaimer, I'm not talking about the actual physical abuse or neglect or abandonment that is real. I'm talking about when people say they feel this way. V: Right K: Those are faux feelings so those have that layer of judgement that someone else is to blame for that. For that “feeling”. So that's what nonviolent communication is. It seems very simple, but the trick is to implement it in your life. V: Absolutely. Because so often we have to know what we are feeling and a lot of us don't want to admit our feelings because of past conditioning like you said. K: Right, and really, we're not trained to notice our feelings during the day, so if you don't check in with yourself, say you're going to a meeting and you don't check in with yourself but you had a very challenging morning; the kids were late and your husband yelled at you and you're driving to work and there is a lot of traffic and you get in this meeting. You're going to show up in a way and say things maybe in a way that you are not in alignment with your values. So, if you take a moment before that meeting and check in with yourself, close your eyes, take a deep breath, a belly breath and, “What am I feeling right now – I'm really feeling agitated.” Okay, and then you think, your feelings point to needs getting met or not met so then you think “What am I needing right now?” And it might be something like ease or support. Once you can have that sense of clarity, it doesn't make your problems go away, but it helps you ratchet that response down. Or that reaction down so that you can show up and respond in a way that you want to. So, then you can walk in that meeting and say okay, I'm going to focus on this meeting, you know. So, I bring a lot of that into my practice. Because legal issues, they're not about the legal issue, they're about the emotions that are happening because of that legal problem. That's why people hire lawyers or mediators, to help with their issue so that their emotions, so they can have ease in their life. V: I think it is so true that we don't practice knowing what we need, and then, I have been conditioned over my career that you just show up and do, you don't have emotions, you don't have needs, you just align yourself to what the expectations are. So, there is a lot of conflict in the workplace that just doesn't ever get dealt with or swept under the rug and it just brews. K: Um hum, and from a bottom-line perspective and the best thing an employer can do is really learn and get some professional education and mentorship in communication and conflict resolution. Because you're gonna lose the good people, and you're gonna keep people that are causing problems if you don't know how to manage that. And also like you said, you can build up resentment, people can feel like they are not heard there, so it's really important. Actually, the CEO of Microsoft, when he came in as CEO, he gave everyone Marshall Rosenberg's book. Everyone in top leadership. “Nonviolent Communication the Language of Life.” He really felt that that soft skill is one of the most important things for a successful business. V: I absolutely agree. What I have seen often is workplace bullies don't get reigned in, they leave a wreckage behind, and nobody is really able to resolve that situation (laugh) So, I agree, K: I totally agree. And you know the workplace bully is, often times that person was victimized. V: Right K: In their past. So, you have to know that okay, that person probably has some needs that aren't being met. And you know if they are a star performer, it's worth your business, it's worth it for your business to go ahead and manage that. So, bring them in and have a conversation with them. And the conversation is observational – “When you did this, said this, or acted in this certain way,” without any judgement, just what happened, I felt, insert the feeling, “frustrated, sad, angry, confused, because I have a need for, and then it's, communication, clarity, support, kindness, whatever that need is. And then the request. And the request is who will do what by when. My request is put your complaints in an email to me so that we can talk about them at an assigned time, rather than, you know, whatever the observation that they did was, talk at the water cooler about it. So that is a simple way that businesses can keep the best people and also help connection between the employees, and the employees and management. V: And I think that productivity is only ever increased when people feel that they are on the same page, they feel safe in their work environment, they feel heard like you said, they feel like they are a contribution, so allowing somebody to…and I love what you said, that that person they are not bad or wrong by being a bully, although we think that bully means sometimes bad or wrong, it's just the method of communicating that might not work very well. So, to reframe it and say this person has needs also and let's reframe this interaction for a way that works. That takes some practice. K: Yeah, I agree, you know we all need mentorship, and we all need skill building our entire lives. And communication and conflict resolution skill building most of all because that impacts every area of your life, personal and professional. I have a background in restorative justice too, which is a way of dealing with harm and crime that brings the parties together and asks four questions: What happened? Who was impacted and how? What needs to be done to make things as right as possible? And what needs to be done to make sure this never happens again? And that combined with NVC, nonviolent communication is just a way of managing your team, it's problems and miscommunication that doesn't push blame and shame on anybody. It focuses on the observation of what happened. Everyone was there, everyone knows what happened. Let's put it out here, let's talk about what can be done and make things as right as possible. You can't always make things completely right, go back to how it was before but you can make things as right as possible, and people can have the opportunity to feel heard. One of the aspects of restorative justice is that even the offender, the offender, whoever the offender is, can repair harm if they admit accountability and want to make things as right as possible. And no one wants to be thought of in their worst moment of their life, you know. We all make mistakes, even really bad ones or hard ones, challenging ones. But there are things that can be done to make things as right as possible and to change and grow, even that person, like that workplace bully. V: I think that would really help families also. That concept, because so often in a frustrating – I had some frustrating experiences with my own children, and you throw your hands up in the air and you say I just don't know what to do. (laughter) And that's probably the real honest statement. (Yeah) and then we grab for something that doesn't work very well, like the scolding or I'll tell you what to do. (laughter) K: Well yeah, we often go back to our family of origin training, unless we get new training. And you know, even then we, we don't rise to the level of our expectation we fall to the level of our training. So, it's about that. But you know in that case, and I do work with not only couples, but parents and children, especially teens, using nonviolent communication and I volunteer with foster teens and foster parents when there is about to be a placement disruption or, basically that means the teen is about to be moved to a new foster home. And I use nonviolent communication with them, and I don't say use it, I practice it with them and help model that for them. But I think the training there teaches you that when you feel, when you notice your feelings as a parent, you're noticing your anger level rising or like tingly sensations, or your shoulders getting tight or you jaw getting tight, when you practice NVC you notice those sensations. So, once you notice those sensations you don't just automatically react to the situation, you know that you need empathy first. So that's when you need to walk away and say, “I'm feeling upset right now, let me go think about things and come back and talk to you.” Because your ultimate need is connection with your child, that's the ultimate goal, and of course mentorship for them to be an autonomous independent person. But, people, when people are upset, especially parents, they want to try to solve the problem quickly. The problem they need to solve is to get clear about what their need is. (yeah) And get clear about what their feelings are. And there is a request they can make of their child. V: And I love that – to make a request, because as a parent I was trained to be authoritarian, (yeah), and we know it didn't work real well when my parents were authoritative, but let's bring it out because it's the tool of choice, right? K: It is, and it's the easy one and it's, you know why it's because - at that moment we are lacking personal power or feeling a need for personal power because we're not sure how to get out of this situation. So, the easiest thing to do to grab that personal power is to force someone to do something. So, yeah, we don't, people are happier when we do things with them rather than to them or for them. (yeah) So that's what NVC helps, it helps you get clear about what your needs are, what your feelings are and if there is a request you can make. And why. I tell this story about, and it's a fictional story, but about my husband, asking him to take the trash out. And I come home I see the trash is not taken out so I'm like ugh, can you take the trash out? Yeah, I'll take it out. And then I come back a few hours later and it's still overflowing. So, one way I can handle this is to start having judgmental thoughts. Like, I'm always the one that does everything around here, he never listens, and he doesn't pick up after himself and all this. And then I go yell. Right? Which can ruin the whole night. And it doesn't meet my ultimate need of connection with my husband. But, if I feel the rising sensation and I am astute enough and aware enough to say “Oh, I'm pretty upset about this.” Okay, I'm going to take a minute, my need is order. Right, that's really my need, order, beauty, in this situation, and consideration, right. And if I can feel that trigger go down a little bit I can also then, think what is he needing right now, what is going on for him right now that he didn't do that for me right away? So, a few things, it can be like he just got a new book that he's reading and his need for joy is a little bit above my need for order. And did I really tell him when I wanted it out? I didn't, so I wasn't clear. Like, “Hi, can you take the trash out within the next hour?” That would have solved the problem. So, it's not that he is lazy, and he doesn't want to help out, it's that I didn't give him clear instruction, I didn't ask for what I needed fully. And so, he is sittin  there “Hey, I'm going to take the trash out later after I read this chapter.” So instead, I could go and say, “Hey, You know I really would love the trash to be taken out now because of my need for order and I'm about to sweep,” or whatever. “Could you just take a minute and take it out right now, or within the next half hour after you finish this chapter?” That, that evening is completely different than the other one where I yelled at him, right? (yeah) And it's because I took a moment, and I didn't show up with an automatic reaction to something. And you know and I didn't assume, you know. So, it's been a lifelong practice for me, and I've been a practitioner, well, I say life long, I've been a practitioner for about thirteen years of nonviolent communication but very deeply practicing it and using it in my practice. So, it's life changing, and I really recommend anyone to take a class in nonviolent communication. It will change your life and how you show up. (yeah) V: I love that part about requests too because in the story that you shared, if you went in and you said to your husband and said I really need you to do this now, and they said no, I'm sorry I can't, then the idea to be okay with that - goes back to ownership too. It's my need for order, right? (Right, yeah.) I made the request. K: Yeah, exactly, and it could be something like, “You know what I really don't want to take it out now because I just got this new book, and can I read three chapters and then take it out?” “Sure.” And now in my head it's like okay it'll probably be out before the end of the night. (yeah) And then I walk away. You know, and we're good. (laughter) Connection remains. V: So, when you're emotionally charged like that it's really hard to set that aside, I think that is one of the elements that would take some self-awareness and willingness, right? K: For sure and the nonviolent communication its more difficult the closer you are to someone. Because you care so much and there is so much history there. So, practicing it in my practice is much easier than at home when I'm triggered or something like that. You know and when you're triggered you have the fight, flight, or freeze response, it's a biological response. And if you don't feed that story, that, whatever that automatic story is in your head, that automatic judgment, if you don't feed that, in 90 seconds it can go away. So just know that if you don't feed that by keep spinning that thought in your head, that judgement, like Oh, he's lazy, I have to always do everything. You stop that, you can respond and show up in a way that is in alignment with your values. (yeah) V: And it also then being, is being aware of your values, your needs, your feelings. So, most of us are taught growing up, I don't think I'm being too general, that none of that is important. (laughter) K: Right, and it's really one of the most important things in your life. V: Oh, absolutely. (right) K: The authenticity about how you actually are feeling and what your needs are. And how to get them, you know that's how I think everyone should be taught. It's helped my clients so much. Oh my gosh. It's just so beneficial, because they all get it. The teens get it, the adults get it, once you have the experience of really feeling fully heard about how it is for you and what your needs are, your deeper needs and being able to express those to someone…it's just very gratifying. We never fight on the need level. As you can imagine, no one is going to fight over like “Oh, you need consideration, why would you need that?” You know, we all know we need joy, we need support, we need kindness, we need consideration. Um, effectiveness. We only fight over the strategy of how we get those needs met. So, like in my example, my strategy to get order was to ask him to take the trash out, and that was my strategy, but I didn't do it well because I didn't ask with specifics. And his strategy to get his needs met was to read because his need was for joy and for relaxation. So, like yeah, we're always fighting on the strategy level. And if we can understand that and get down to the need, we're like, okay, you want joy and relaxation I really want order, what can we do about this. We can be on the same page. And we can move to walking together. (yeah) V: I really appreciate that example and the picture in my mind of cooperation and setting aside what I think I know about somebody, because I've been married for 22 years and sometimes, I can think “Oh I know what he's thinking, I know what his motives are.” “I know what's really going on here.” (right) And stopping to recognize that he has needs that he's fulfilling in his way, and he has a right to that. (laughter) K: It's about the relationship and I have a couple's mastermind coming up in July that we're launching. But part of that is exactly what you said, it's those automatic thoughts and judgments about your partner in close, and you know, you could be right, some of the time, but it's still not, it's still not your role to be a mind reader, or to be an assumer. To be making assumptions. What you need to be doing is verifying. Like, “Hey, I'm thinking that I have a thought that you might be feeling angry. Can we, I want to check in with you.” So being compassionately curious is what will lead you to more connection, not assuming, oh I've been with him fifteen years I know exactly what he's thinking. (laughter) you know that's bull shit quite frankly. (it is) You have not verified that. V: And with your kids too, if you torn that around, or with your boss, or your co-worker, wherever you implement that strategy. A lot of my clients have a real hard time speaking their truth, especially in the workplace, so to be willing to spend time learning what their needs are their feelings and take these risks. Can you paint a picture of what they might be, what the cost might be for them if they don't? K: Yeah, well for sure unhappiness, health issues. I myself had some health issues at my old job, they were very resistant to change and support. But um yeah, I think that if you have these skills and you can really be observational about not only what happened but what you need to happen, what you need to have happen, um, you take the judgment out of it. So, a lot of people put their walls up if they feel judged, or if they feel like I'm being judged because I'm a bad manager, or I didn't do this or that. And really if you can be observational and say “When you, At the meeting today when you called on me without letting me know that I needed to provide my numbers at the meeting I felt embarrassed and I felt unsure of myself. And I really you know I really have a need for competence and clarity and I'm wondering if before the meeting next we can go over my numbers or is there a list of things I need to be prepared for?” And that type of thing, even in the most resistant manage, defensive manager, you're not calling them a bad manager, you're telling them what you felt like, what your needs are and making a very clear request.  So that is the key for NVC, using it in the workplace. Effectively, is to make these observational requests, requests based on observation and what your needs are. (yeah) V: It takes, ah, I get a sense of empowerment and taking away, like a game of chess, like, I'll make this move, and they make that move and then I'll make this move, and nobody is talking to each other. (laughter, right) to see what the impact is. And we think well that move didn't work so I'll try this and maybe like the water cooler, we go over there and chat up somebody else about how bad it all is and how ‘they' are so bad and yeah. (yeah, right and you're both making a story about the other person) V: When there is conflict, we often come from a place where somebody has to win, and somebody has to lose, and this method seems to put it on the playing field where both people can win. K: Absolutely, because part of it is, I want to get my needs met but I want to do it in a way that you get your needs met too. (yeah) You know there is a lot of different conflict styles out there. And a lot of us are conflict avoidant because we don't have the skills, that's why, not because we don't want to resolve the problem. And a lot of people come from a place of thinking I'm a compromiser, we'll figure it out, we'll compromise. But let me say that if you feel that compromise is good, I want you to think about this: When you compromise, you are taking your dreams and you're putting half of them on the table before you walk into the room. You're deciding that your dreams are not worth asking for. So, I really want to get people away from thinking that compromise is a good thing. Collaboration is what we need to be doing. Collaborating. What is your dream, what is my dream, we can both get our dream met, let's work on this? And that's what I want to see people do for, to learn about complex, is to be a collaborator. V: I love that. (laughter) I really do. It just feels so empowering and free and nurturing and supportive. K: Yeah, it's definitely the world I want to live in. V: Me too! K: Yeah, that's why I do this work and now I'm getting into a lot of training, which just kind of organically developed but there's a need. And I love that there is a growing hunger for it. Because that gives me so much hope for our world. For peace in our world, and I believe that peace, world peace is possible. In my lifetime. It's a decision we all have to make, individually to learn about conflict resolution and how to show up in a way that is connecting. With your own sense of self and with the other person. V: I can sure see your passion. And feel it, across the line. So, my show is about tiny changes Big Shift, if somebody is not versed in this at all what are some small things that they could do to start their path? K: Yeah, Oh, there are so many. So, one of the things that you can do is, even if you want to set a timer on your phone for periodically you know four times during the day, when that timer goes off just close your eyes and say, “How am I feeling right in this moment?” How am I feeling in this moment? Am I feeling calm, sad, annoyed, frustrated, confused, you know, what are those feelings? And just notice, so just start noticing. That is important, that's the step one, that helps you show up in a way that you want to show up, in an intentional way. That helps you show up in alignment with your values, how you want to show up in the world and helps prevent you from reacting automatically to some stimulus. That's number one, then I think of course the next layer is hum…I'm feeling sad or frustrated, what's that about? Oh, someone cut me off in traffic, that's why I'm feeling frustrated. Okay, alright, what's the need under that? A lot of times it's consideration. (yeah) Pro tip! (laughter) Talking to you all you people that have dogs that are barking in your neighborhood. That's another one. Anyway, just noticing your feelings during the day. Getting into a habit of noticing your feelings. You'll start noticing the sensations too and then it'll come more easily to you. There is a list, you know I sent you a list of feelings and needs, but not all of the feelings and all the needs, but it's a good start for people who haven't been taught to look at their feelings. I work with a lot of lawyers and there's many times when the lawyers like, “I don't know, I don't know what I'm feeling.” And it's like well okay, look at this list. And the list is very nuanced too. Not just mad, it's mad, angry, frustrated, irritable (laughter) and a lot of times when they look, they can pick out a feeling. (yeah) V: Well, I'm really fascinated with this whole topic, and I really, really, really appreciate you being here today. What do you have coming up; you mentioned a workshop coming up for couples? Do you want to say the dates and the specifics, how somebody could get in touch with you if they had an interest in that? K: Yeah, there's a couple's mastermind coming up July 10, and it's 9am to 1pm eastern time by zoom. And you can show up as a couple or you can show up individually, you don't have to be married, they can be for non-traditional couples too, anyone, any human. And you're going to learn a lot of these skills, actually we're doing a lot of NVC. NVC is a sixteen-hour training so I'm giving you some tools and introduction on how you can use these right now in your relationship and then encouraging you to take a longer class because I believe in mentorship and professional growth training. So yeah, that's July 10th and we're limiting it to only 20 participants. 20 couples or individuals. And that's going to be $497 and it has a bonus of one hour working one on one with me. (Kelly) So after the training you get an hour, the couple or the individual, where we go over the training and you get to talk to me about your specific questions or situation. And I'm adding this because I know that we often go to workshops and then we don't implement well. (right) Over time, and I want these skills to be part of your routine as a couple, how you treat each other, how you show up for yourself. So, I'm doing that. It also comes with a 100% guarantee, if you don't find value in it, I'm happy to give you your money back although I've never had to do that because we know these skills are needed and it'll add ease to your life, and joy to your relationship. So, I'm doing that, and I still have my practice, my mediation practice. So, I work with businesses and individuals to help resolve their issue out of court. Work one on one, and having this facilitator, I'm a third-party neutral facilitator, I don't act as an attorney when I mediate. And I help them bridge that communication gap. And have a one-on-one session with each person beforehand so they can have the experience of feeling fully heard and talk about the challenges and their hopes and how they want to show up at mediation. And it gives me such a great background to develop the right agenda to make the most efficient use of time. So, I'm doing that, and I have that couples program coming up and I'm just so thrilled about it. And they can reach me through my website, kellymcgrathlaw.com. Or email me: Kelly@kellymcgrathlaw.com Or my phone number is 850-273-8698. V: Perfect, I'm going to bring up a link because you mentioned your materials that you gave me for a free gift, and I want to make sure that I say this right. K: Yep, you'll have a feelings and needs sheet so you can work off of that, and there are a few other things in there too, but we talked about those too. And you know you can just talk to your spouse or your partner or your child and say, “I'm feeling frustrated” and hand them the list, and say, take some needs guesses, what do you think I'm needing right now? (yeah) They don't have to say anything else but maybe you're needing support or maybe some consideration. And it's like yeah, okay, yeah. V: Or connection or belonging. (right) V: I think the easiest place for people to find that is https://linktr.ee.com/vickidawn.  I'll put the link for that podcast free gift on that link. And as we wrap up do you have any follow up comments? K: I just want to encourage people; you can grow in your skills with communication, and you can grow with your skills with conflict resolution. You just need to seek out some mentors and some good workshops, but everyone can. And let's do that, let's do that for each other, for the people we love. We can resolve our conflicts peacefully. V: Yeah, I appreciate that a lot. And I think this seems so simple when you explain it and as I was reading about it before our show today, and it seems so simple, why isn't this taught in school? K: Yeah, well you know it's great to know that it is now being taught in school. My mentor, Dr. Cindy Bigbie has a method called the Bigbie method where she's teaching teachers and students this in schools. V: Oh, that's beautiful. K: Having the next generation come up learning how to really talk from the heart. I have so much hope for our future. I really do. V: I do too. Well thank you so much for being here and sharing with us today. And for the audience, if you like our show, please forward it to your friends and family, ask them to listen in. Subscribe, if you like it leave a review and I'm open to emails from my listeners – info@vickidawn.com. Send your concerns or questions or things you'd like to hear on our show. You can join my Facebook group – creating connections, you can find it on the link tree I mentioned. As I say goodbye, remember you create your beautiful life, one moment one step at a time.

In this week's episode, I interview Kelly Buck, a Dunstan Baby Language Educator and doula. She talks about the Dunstan Baby Language program and how it gives us a window into the first communicative interactions between baby and caregiver. From birth, babies make sounds that are reflex-based. When we understand what these sounds mean, we can respond to and interact with babies more confidently and effectively.   TRANSCRIPT: Sara: Hi, welcome to the Birth Words podcast. Today, I'm chatting with my friend and fellow doula Kelly Buck. Kelly is also a Dunstan Baby Language educator. And today on the podcast, I'm going to ask her more about the work she does with Dunstan Baby Language. So hi, Kelly, welcome to the podcast. Kelly: Hi, thank you for having me. Sara: It's great to have you. I'm going to just ask you a bit about your background with Dunstan Baby Language and the work that you're doing with that. So I'll jump into my first question. Kelly: Okay, sure! Sara: Great. So how did you find out about Dunstan Baby Language? Kelly: So, I learned about the program in 2008 when I had just given birth to my oldest. Sara: Oh, good. Kelly: Yes. And I was one of the rare cases of postpartum depression that happens almost immediately. Yeah, we’re talking, I was bawling in the recovery room. So and add to that, that my son was actually really colicky. And he had a lot of trouble latching. And I was just kind of like an emotional wreck. So, one day I was kind of I was on the phone with my mom. And she mentioned that she had seen the episode, an episode of Oprah where there was this lady that said she could understand why babies cry and I was like, okay, maybe I will look this up. Sara: Yeah. Kelly: Yeah. So that led me to looking up the video on YouTube and learning more about Patricia Dunstan and her programs. So at the time, you could only order the program online for DVDs. And so I did. And I'm telling you, it was a game changer for me. It was amazing. My husband and I both listened to it and we were just like this is… this is working! We tried it with with our son and he seemed to calm down. I still had a little bit of the depression, but I felt like I could at least care for my son, you know, do what he needed. So that I could, I could do that. And so I started like lending out all my DVDs telling my friends who were pregnant or who just had babies and I guess you could kind of say that new learning about Dunstan Baby Language actually kind of sort of paved the way for me to becoming a doula because I love talking about birth and babies and how just how much it did for me, specifically for my postpartum depression. So, so yeah, that's how I got my start. And then I, I went on to become a doula and then later on, I was thinking okay, what can I offer to my clients? What can I do and then I, I went online and lo and behold, you could certify to be an instructor. So I did, and I was like this is this it! And yeah, so I'm about six months into being an instructor and I love it. It's an awesome program. Sara: So sounds awesome. Kelly and I were chatting before we press record about how I was not as fortunate as Kelly that I didn't find out about Dunstan Baby Language until after one of my clients introduced me to it. And I had three kids that were well beyond the baby language stage. So I'm glad that you found that at a fortuitous moment for you and I'm sure all the friends that you shared it with, were glad, too. And now all your clients that you can share, but with your formal training, that's awesome. So, can you give an overview of just the premise of the program, like the main points that it operates on? Kelly: Absolutely. So the main points of the program are that infants are automatically born with certain reflexes that they are using to kind of communicate with us. And they've kind of boiled it down to five specific sounds that all newborns make. And again, like I said, they're based on reflexes that are happening in the body. And when you add sound to those you get these Dunstan baby words that can help parents understand what their baby needs. It's really a program all about helping families bond and bond from an early, age. Sara: That's huge. And it's true for whatever language the baby goes on, is exposed to and goes on to acquire Is that correct? Kelly: Absolutely. They have done studies with over—their first study was with over 400 mothers and parents and babies and they all found that whatever language they spoke these babies still made the same sounds. And so and also it applies to even autistic children. I can attest with my oldest who's autistic—he still made the sounds even though he has difficulty communicating. But I honestly believe that because I was able to respond to his needs so quickly that it might have helped a little bit with that. I can't say specifically or scientifically, but that's just my opinion, because he is high functioning and is able to speak. So… Sara: But that makes a big difference like you said before with bonding and with him recognizing that he has needs that he can express and that you can respond to them because you know what they are. That's huge, and I feel like so many young parents with little babies making sound that have no idea what they're saying, just feel this frustration. And it affects the bond that can happen when you can't communicate with your child. Kelly: Right, right. And I just think about those parents who are like, what happens now after the hospital doors closed, you know? And if I can give them these tools to say, okay, you don't have to feel that sense of kind of dread as what you do now that you can go home and be confident and in your ability to be a good parent. Sara: That's huge. Cool. So I have another question for you. That's a little long, but… So in one of my classes, we were talking about language acquisition—first language acquisition—and I read an article about how older babies are, “learning how to mean,” meaning that they're exploring with language and how they're able to communicate their needs and ideas with others through it. But as I was reading it, I felt like the author wasn't giving really young babies enough credit. He claimed that it was past six months, past nine months, even, that babies realized that they can learn how to mean. But I want to hear your opinion, when do you think that infants begin attempting to meaningfully communicate and what avenues do they use? Kelly: So, like I said, our philosophy is that infants are, are kind of unconsciously communicating from day one. And again, it starts off on these basic, these very primal reflexes, but they're finding that if parents respond to the sounds that our babies, babies are making, that they… They're finding that if, if are not responded to the sound, usually about after three months, they kind of stopped making the sound. But they found that if parents are responding with the sounds and with these words that babies will kind of learn to associate that, and keep on making these sounds well past three months. It honestly, I believe it. It's my belief that, that it's helping babies communicate earlier. It's helping babies learn how to trust earlier. Because they know that their needs are being met. And so they're, they're calmer. So, yeah, does that does answer your question? Sara: Totally. And that makes a lot of sense to me because like you said, initially, it's a physiological reflex-based, like not a conscious attempt to communicate. But when you realize that, hey, when I make this sound like I am communicating this message with my parents or other caregivers, then that invites communication earlier. I think that's great. I think that makes a lot ofsense. Kelly: Yeah. And and it also kind of dispels the belief that that babies are manipulating you. Because young babies actually can't. They don't… Sara: Right. Kelly: It’s not like they consciously choose at two or three weeks to, you know, be colicky, they don't choose these things. So it's, it's your understanding that changes your whole perspective. Sara: I think that's a really good point because we kind of thrust our perspective upon a baby like, oh, they're manipulating me. If you sat down with somebody who said that, they probably realize that didn't actually literally mean that they felt that their baby had the ability to like, recognize their desires and then thwart them by doing something different, right? Like toddlers, we know they do that, right? But little tiny babies, right? But if you shift the perspective and say, okay, where is the baby coming from and what cues is the baby responding to and what physiological things are going on? When we shift our perspective instead of putting our perspective upon our babies makes a really big difference. Kelly: Yeah, exactly. Sara: You're totally selling me. I love it. My next question I've kind of touched on before so if you don't have anything else to add, that's fine. But how has your work as a Dunstan Baby Language educator influenced your personal experiences, and then the work you do as a doula?   Kelly: Um, it To be honest, I love it so much. So sometimes it's hard to hold back, especially here in Utah, with so many women who are pregnant and then like.. YOU NEED THIS! But I hold back. And oftentimes, they'll be, I'll be in church or something and there’ll be a baby crying and I'm like, “I think that baby needs to burp.” But, you know, I just I can't just go up and say that to somebody. But there have been times where like, I've had family members who've had babies and, and I've listened to them and I'm like, “I think that baby is kind of gassy” and she's like, “No, she just pooped” or something. I'm like, “well, try this or try doing this…” And sure enough, 30 minutes later, the baby will pass gas again or, you know, if they, they'll be like, the baby will be hungry. And they're like, “Oh, they just ate” and I'm like, “no, they're still hungry.” So yeah, they'll latch right on. So, but I, I just I love being able to offer this to women to, again to just be able to build that family bond. And the other thing that I love about is that we focus a lot on the dad. And we… my husband was actually much better at hearing the sounds in my son that I was and it is kind of forced me to stop and listen to him and trust his instincts and improve my communication with him. I know a lot of times, moms are hesitant to, I guess leave their baby with her husband or something like that because they feel like they have to do everything. But couples who learn this are kind of able to let that go and say, “Okay, my husband knows what to do.” And a lot of dads will come in and be like, “I feel so good because I know what to do.” Sara: Awesome. Kelly: So yeah, I love that family bonding. Sara: Yeah! And empowering for for both parents. Because it can be disempowering for a mother to feel like I am the sole provider for my baby physically, emotionally… Especially a breastfeeding mom who has literally… her body is producing all of its food and then feeling like its emotional needs can only be met through her, that can be disempowering for her. And it's great that you can flip it and empower for the husband as well for everybody to work together as a team. And even outside of that, you know, if you have other caregivers or grandparents or partner, whoever is helping to care, that's huge. Kelly: Absolutely. This isn't just for for new parents. It’s or anybody who's working with newborns, just to be able to improve their confidence and their skills. So yeah, I tell I tell my clients all the time that if grandma is watching baby then teach them these sounds so that she can respond quicker. But yeah, I love empowering the dad. That was my that's kind of why I do doula work as well. It's fun to see the dads in the birth room and see them transform into fathers. So giving them another tool is just, it's just a great opportunity. Sara: So that's huge. Okay, you've totally sold me. I'm going to talk with you more and more about this and send my clients to you to take your classes and all of this. I think this is important work that you're doing. And I have two quick questions for you to wrap up. One is if you had to choose just one word to describe your views about birth and the surrounding perinatal period, what word would it be? Kelly: life-changing? Is that one word? Sara: Oh yeah, just stick a hyphen in there—totally one word. Kelly: And no matter how your birth goes it's definitely going to permanently affect you and in whatever way, it's something that always stays with you. You can ask any person who's given birth. If any person has given birth, they may not be able to remember what they ate yesterday, but I guarantee you they can tell you every single detail of their birth and their story. Sara: Great. Life-changing. I love it. And I feel like that applies, too, to the work you're doing with the Dunstan Baby Language that could be life-changing. Kelly: Thank you. Sara: My last question is, how can listeners follow you on social media or your website? How can they connect with you? Kelly: Absolutely. So my website is shebirthservices.com, and you can follow me on Facebook at SHE Birth Services. And Instagram is the same thing: SHE Birth Services. So I’d love for anybody who wants to come and take a class. You're welcome to. Sara: Great. Thank you so much Kelly. It was great to have you. Kelly: Oh, thank you.   Outro: Did words play an important role in your birth experience? If you're interested in sharing your story on the podcast, go to www.birthwords.com. If you're liking what you hear on the podcast, please leave a review on your podcast app. For more resources about harnessing the power of words to benefit the birth experience, visit birthwords.com   Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Good morning, this is Kelly Coughlin, CEO of Bank Bosun, hope everybody is doing well. You know, dealing with the IRS for a business or a personal tax resolution can be a challenging endeavor. Today we are going to talk about Business Tax Resolution.  We are going to focus on tax liability resolution, that is, resolution of a business tax liability after the IRS has notified you of an amount due.  With that, I have on the line, William D. McConnaughy. He is a former IRS Revenue agent, beware, and has a Masters in taxation and is a CPA.  So, he has got insider knowledge about how the IRS personnel think, or don’t think, what pressures they are under and how to work with them successfully.   Kelly: So, I think, Bill, you are on the line.  Let’s talk about business liability, tax liability. I like things in threes and fives so let’s talk about the top five tax liability categories that you end up working on for businesses or the events that created it. Is it, you know, the long term capital gains and you get this big tax liability?  Is it an audit?  I assume  that employment tax withholding for compensation, that’s one of those things that you can’t do too much with, I would imagine, because that’s one of the most egregious events, right, that’s created but give me like top five things that you work on like for businesses. William: For businesses, I am not sure if there is five but I’ll list a couple.  First and foremost, far and away, the number one problem is employment taxes, payroll taxes, where the business owner or the business doesn’t turn over withheld payroll taxes to the IRS like they are supposed to, that comes up frequently.   And the reason again is that, there is usually a good reason where the business need that money to take care of unexpected things that come up either within the business or the business owner personally.  It is unpaid payroll taxes that the company withholds from the employees’ wages, they are supposed to turn them over to the government and they don’t, for various reasons.   That’s number one.   Far and away, number two would be the income taxes, company income taxes, but by and large it’s almost always the payroll taxes that’s the troublesome thing, and the reason being is because it is so easy.  I mean, the company is supposed to turn this over every three months because there is a quarterly filing requirement. And it’s very easy because there is nobody there to stop the company or the company owner from just saying to themselves, you know, I need this money right now for other purposes, and that’s what they do with it. So, that’s it, I wouldn’t say there is five but there is certainly the payroll taxes and the income taxes, but payroll, far and away is the bigger problem of the two.    Kelly: Okay, and on the payroll side let’s focus on that one then, many, many companies outsource payroll to like Quick Books, ADP, you know, a handful of companies that do payroll processing, I know, I am the CEO of a company.  We didn’t see the payroll taxes, we outsourced the entire service.  I never wanted to see that money, just make sure it gets deposited.  Then it got me concerned, I think there are a couple cases I had read about where even if you are using an outside service you better make sure that that outside service, it settles withholdings unto the IRS or they are going to come back and look at you. Is that a fair statement? William:               That’s absolutely fair, with the payroll services, and as you are mentioning, there are large ones that are nation-wide, and they do a pretty good job of it. I use Paychex, one of two of the largest, they do a pretty good job of it but even they can make honest mistakes so it’s still your responsibility to make sure that those payroll taxes are going in like they are supposed to.  And then there is smaller payroll processing companies that are not so stable or not so honest where there has been cases where some of the smaller companies will embezzle your payroll taxes and you are thinking you are paying the IRS and what you are actually paying is somebody who plans on running off with your money. That can happen.  That does happen.  So, yeah, as you were saying, it’s incumbent upon the business owner to make sure those taxes are deposited with the IRS because you, the business owner, you are responsible whether you farm it out to somebody else or not that’s not the point with the IRS.  The point with them is that you are the person who is responsible for that, and if it doesn’t happen the IRS is going to make you personally responsible for that. They, the IRS, they will personally assess half of the payroll tax that was not paid by the company against you personally.  So, that’s how that works and it’s, like I said before, it’s one of the biggest problems out there and it brings me a lot of business because this comes up all the time. Kelly:                    So, that personal liability, the corporate vale, so to speak, payroll taxes pierce that for all officers, CEO, CFO, how deep does it go? William:               Anybody who has any sort of responsibility for that for that to happen?  And it can go deeper, I have seen cases where the IRS will even go down to the bookkeeper or account who is not even an owner of the business, they just work there but because they had their hands on the check book they were supposed to write the checks, they didn’t write the checks the IRS can go all the way down on the people who are not even owners, people who just work there. Kelly:                    Yes, because I remember when after I had read this, I was CEO of the company and I am the CPA as well, so I am kind of, you know, sensitive to that kind of stuff and so I remember, I think we were actually using Paychex at the time, and I remember it caused me to do further due diligence on paychecks to make sure that they were in fact sending those funds along, and I think it was kind of a challenge to get that information to prove that the deposits had actually been made.  Is there any ideas that you have on how one can get that? William:               Oh yeah, you would have to contact Paychex and get proof of that.  I have seen on bank statements where they are charging me for the deposit. They, Paychex, they take the money out of my bank account so that’s how I know it’s been done. Kelly:                    Oh, you don’t know that it is going to the treasury though? William:               Well, I will know.  You have got a point there actually.  I will know once the IRS sends me a notice saying that I have unpaid taxes and if that ever comes in I would say that should not be happening. Kelly:                    Yeah, you see, that was my problem, I certainly saw them withhold it but were they depositing it into another account or the treasuries account?  And, they never could, as I recall, and it has been years, but as I recall it was a challenge to get to verify that.  But your point is that it needs to be verified because that’s your number one, whether it’s accidental or intentional, these employment tax liability, the failures to make those deposits is the number one driver of your demand for your business model, correct? William:               Right. That’s the number one thing from businesses that bring me tax liability cases where these payroll taxes don’t get paid like they are supposed to.  Also to follow up on your question about how can you know that they are making those deposits, what you can do is pull up account transcripts from the IRS online for any particular quarter, and you will get a print out to show what happen there whether or not the payroll taxes were deposited.  So, you can verify that, that’s not actually that hard to do.  If you go online at the irs.gov, pull up your account transcript for any particular quarter or a year then you will see what is there.                                               Kelly:                    That’s probably not a bad idea to do then, is it? William:               Yes, if you want to stay on top of it and if you have any reason to believe that it’s not happening like it should that would be the best way to verify it without having to take anybody else’s word for it. Kelly:                    Yeah, at least have a bookkeeper or controller or somebody just once a quarter, or once every six months or at least once a year go in and do that.  So, that’s what drives your business model. Kelly:                    Well, that covers what I had. Anything else you wanted to add to this? William:               In closing, I can’t overemphasize the importance of those payroll taxes again, that is such a big deal on these business taxes that when the IRS, again, goes and asses that the tax is against the owner of the business or the bookkeeper that works there the so called trust fund recovery penalty, that’s what they call it, that is a real big deal. The IRS takes those payroll taxes very seriously, and the way they look at it, they don’t look at it as an unpaid tax liability. The IRS people call that theft because what you have done as a business owner or somebody that works there and didn’t turn those payroll taxes over. Those monies, those taxes, that was not your money that was your employees’ money.  That was money that’s out of your employees’ paycheck, that never belonged to you and you are put in a position of trust to turn it over to the government and if you don’t do it the way the IRS sees it, what you have done is tantamount to theft.  You have taken somebody else’s money that you are supposed to hand over to the government and you didn’t do it.  So, the way they look at it, they call it theft, very thinly disguised theft. And that’s why they come down real hard on unpaid payroll tax liability. So, I cannot re-emphasize just how important that is.  If you are in that situation for whatever reason you will be well advised to get professional representation, because the IRS is going to come down on you like you wouldn’t believe about that.   Kelly:                    Now, does that apply to if the employer is withholding 401K contributions?  Would they treat that the same way to make sure that the funds are being deposited into their, you know, 401K plan? William:               That’s not any of the IRS’s business where that goes to 401K plan, that’s another matter.  The IRS doesn’t monitor all of that, they are looking for the payroll taxes, not the 401K contributions.  Kelly:                    Okay.  So the department of labor, I suppose, would, say, be on top of that if for some reason the employer was withholding the wages for a 401K contribution and it wasn’t going into the 401K plan, and you are saying the IRS wouldn’t be looking at that but another regulator like DOL probably would. Is that right? William:               That’s right, yeah, that’s not for the IRS.  Kelly:                    Okay.  On the issue resolution since it is such a kind of cut and dry fact and circumstance, how can you get a favorable resolution on this?  If it is they stole $10,000 from their employees, how do you add value to that? Just reduction in penalty? William:               I am not sure I understand the question there Kelly, rephrase that, what do you mean? Kelly:                    So the question is, if the equivalent to theft of employees $10,000, the employer doesn’t make the contribution so the IRS says, hey, this is de facto theft, let’s say it’s $10,000, how do you add value to that?  Because if they are just saying, hey, this is theft, how does McConnaughy comes in and says, well, let’s settle on $5,000? William:               That would depend on the company’s ability to repay those taxes.  I get settlements all the time on unpaid payroll taxes in these cases, even though they are quite serious.  I get settlements all the time, there is a misunderstanding out in  the general public that you can’t settle payroll taxes but that would be untrue, I get settlements frequently on unpaid payroll taxes, even though the IRS profoundly frowns on those unpaid payroll taxes.   They can be settled if you can prove to the IRS that the business doesn’t have the means to pay those off, ever, then yes you can get reduce settlements even on payroll taxes, both at the company level and at the responsible person’s level.  I do it, like I said, frequently, it’s not at all the time, it’s not every day but it is frequently.  That’s at least every month I get settlements on those kind of taxes despite the misunderstanding in the public that you can’t settle those.  Those kind of taxes cannot be discharged in a bankruptcy which is where I think the misunderstanding comes in, because you can’t discharge those kind of taxes in a bankruptcy filing they can’t be settled, but that’s not true, they can be settled with the kind of work that I do.  Kelly:                    Yeah, I guess I didn’t realize that, I kind of assume that the payroll tax part was there not much room for negotiation there. William:               No, no, no, that would be untrue, I get settlements, frequently on those taxes.  They can be settled. Kelly:                    That’s terrific. William:               It can’t be discharged in a bankruptcy that’s where a lot of people get the misunderstanding. Kelly:                    Yeah.  Let’s talk about how people can contact you. I think there is no geographical limitation and where you work.  I mean if it’s the state tax issues in California, I suppose, maybe Arizona or is your sweet spot but in terms of Federal Tax issue you can work with anybody anywhere, correct? William:               That’s correct.  I have clients literally world-wide, people that are overseas. Kelly:                    How does one get a hold of you? William:               The best way is either call because I have a toll free number, it is 888-2251272- toll free.  You can call me on my dime, 888-2251272 or they can go through my website taxhelp.pro, taxhelp.pro, and you can get a hold of me through the website, either quick to call,  email we have chat on most of the time, any of those three ways, call, chat, email, whatever works for you.  Kelly:                    Now, do people normally start with you or they start with one of your assistants to kind of do some fact finding first, how does the process begin? William:               The first point of contact is usually…I have a brother that works with me in the business, his name is Donald, he does the initial screening.  So, usually the first contact will be with him to determine whether or not you really have a problem that I can help you out with, but then immediately after that it comes directly to me.  I am the man, I am the point of contact after that.  I will be personally working your case, it will not be shoved down to somebody else with less experience.  Kelly:                    So, the McConnaughy Brothers, the McConnaughy mafia doing tax work for you.                                             Alright, so say your website again.  William:               It’s taxhelp.pro Kelly:                    Taxhelp.pro, okay.  Alright, that’s terrific. Do you want to finish with a quote or a funny historical event or are we done? William:               Let’s see…I think we are done for now.  This has been a great call and I really enjoyed it.  Any other time you want to speak with me about tax stuff please let me know I will be glad to get on the line with you. Kelly:                    Well, let’s do a personal one, a personal tax situation because those are different, because, obviously, you don’t have the wages thing so at least the top critical event would be different. But, we will set that up and try to get that done before the end of the year as people get into the tax season. That would be great. William:               Alright, very good.  I am looking forward to it. Kelly:                    Bill I enjoyed it, take care of yourself. William:               Okay, goodbye Kelly. Kelly:                    Thanks, bye.

Ready to Positioning Your Business to Profit? Go to-->>> http://positioningtoprofit.com/HLP_029.mp3Patty: Hey there my legacy leader This is Patty Domínguez with Episode 29 of Her Legacy Podcast Reinventing yourself and your Business with the amazing Kelly Howard, Kelly has had an amazing run at entrepreneurship. Being a business boss she has started and built and sold business number four. So in this episode we're talking about how to know when it's time to sell how she knew literally what was holding her back from selling.And then just the overall mindset of what it takes to get into this frame of mind and do it knowing setting the intention that on the other side of it you're going to be fine. We know that being an entrepreneur is not for the faint of heart.And so I deeply appreciate these kind of conversations with women who just have that fortitude and the knowingness and setting the intention and seeing it through. I particularly admire women like that so I'm super excited to share Kelly's story with you here on Her Legacy Podcast. And please do hit the subscribe button if you haven't done so. And of course let me know what you're thinking about this episode. What other topics do you want to see? Because I'm always looking for new guests to bring to you my legacy leader. So this episode is a special one with Kelly Howard. Please do enjoy. And here we go.Patty: All right Kelly Howard thank you so much for being on Her Legacy Podcast. It is such a pleasure. And it was actually commenting and how fresh faced she is today. She's putting me to shame you. And because this is not a video podcast Thank God then just wondering knowledge with you. OK. And welcome.Kelly: Thank you. I'm super excited to be here and I told Patty that the reason I was so fresh faced was I actually showered this morning which of course when you're online you have to do that right.Patty: The secret of owning your own business you know getting to decide whether you want a shower or not. I wanted to just say we met in person at a mastermind a week ago and it's such a joy to connect.And I got to tell you I did a show talking about just how important connecting in person is. I mean you can have group code you have an online presence and doing that kind of thing but there's nothing like being physically in front of a group of people and connecting at that level.So I just want you know I'm so glad I got a chance because we were laughing so much and having so much fun and learning and immersing ourselves and just new depths of opportunity and it just been fantastic so far.Kelly: Yeah it was very brilliant.Patty: Yeah it was awesome. All right. So I'd like to get braggy with all my guests and I want to know what do you believe your superpower is.Kelly: Oh my superpower. OK. My superpower is a weird one. I have the ability for good or for bad to not remember something that wasn't good. So yeah. So this is the way that works. Like I'm just going to make something up. Let's say that someone did a really bad review on me.Patty: Yeah.Kelly: Right. I like Oh Bad review. And then that would be it. I would never remember it again. And if I saw that person I wouldn't remember that it didn't happen like there were times when my partner would say you can't do business with that company again. Don't you remember what happened I'm like No.?So my team part of their job is to keep track of things like this. I don't know if it's a superpower but it really makes my life easy.Patty: Oh my God. Well we know that the cause of our suffering is attachment. As the Buddha says and that your ability to be removed from the outcome is exceptional and that is literally what causes all suffering.Kelly: Yeah, I guess that's a great way of looking at it. Thank you.Patty: Yes. I mean I literally get chills because how many I remember in my first podcast that I had this was in 2015 I think we got one bad review and it was completely ridiculous it didn't have anything to do with anything with the podcast. I was literally sick about it.I was like how could somebody not appreciate it and we just take it so hard or if somebody comments on your work I mean how often has that happened. Or something as not well received. We look at the bad and bypassed the good and we just get mired in the bad.Kelly: Yeah. It doesn't help I know that like at one point I used to check and see why people unsubscribe. Like if they unsubscribe from email list. Well because Kelly Howard is a litchi cried a lot so hard And after that it's surreal I don't I would look at my own tabs anymore.Patty: Oh my gosh.Kelly: I remember it. But it struck me as a rather funny actually. So yeah yeah I guess it's just holding on those things just doesn't help much.Patty: It doesn't. It doesn't. That is truly a superpower. The one thing that I say is just as a total aside I have been so amazing about, I want people to unsubscribe like don't waste my e-mail service provider people's space type of thing. If you're not interested. Yeah. And I think it was Lisa Carpenter last year she talked about doing a massive cleanup just kind of a recon doing her e-mail list.Kelly: Sure.Patty: It just unapologetically. She's like you know these people are never going to do business with me because I know we have such an attachment to our list size as supposed to the quality. So just as a little aside as it comes to my mind there's nothing wrong with that.And I know we just put so much weight on these dumb things that don't matter at the end of the day and you just a perfect example of the way they explained it you were you just laughed it off you know.Kelly: Yeah.Patty: Yeah. It's incredible. All right. So I thought it was so fascinating when I read when you first fill out a form or just about just what you've been doing in this incredible background that you have had you started growing building and selling for different businesses.Kelly: So you're truly truly an entrepreneur.Patty: Yeah.Kelly: I don't. I mean I work well with others but I don't work out what someone tells me what to do.Patty: Amazing. So tell me about like is this something that you always knew that you would do or did just organically happened because you're just wired that way for something new.Kelly: Yeah I think I am just wired that way. I couple of very young stories like you know I learned very early on that if I wanted a horse I had to clean my horse stables. I did the horses Ta da da Right. So that's how I figured out that I got what I wanted.So a few years later I was able to drive. I was 16 at the time and I saw a fruit stand on the side of the road. I stopped and I'm you know watching these people and people just fine all this stuff and I thought why can't I have a food stamp. So I served fruit stand and my mother said we look like the grapes of wrath.My little brother and my friend from down the street to work we would drive to this fruit stand every day. But it was amazing like I had no knowledge that I couldn't do this. So I just did it and we got shut down by the Health Department they extend something back up again. Well, All right. And it was stupid just like how much money we made. It was crazy.Patty: Wow.Kelly: And it just kind of stuck with me after that. And then you know I don't do well with someone telling me what to do. You know I'm just not very good at that. So it just stuck with me and that's what I've been doing ever since.Patty: And out of curiosity what are your core values.Kelly: Oh freedom is clearly the number one driver.Patty: Yeah. Yeah. And that is just we're really addicting. And here's the other thing is that the fact that you just did it and didn't even think you have this ability to remove yourself from the outcome. Did you have any fear of failure or anything?Kelly: Oh at that time no. I will say that as I've gotten older and businesses have become more successful then absolutely. Like right now and I'm sure we'll talk about it later but right now I'm in transition so I'm starting something new. Like early it's on my desk whatever new it is. And there's absolutely some I don't think fear is the right word but if I paid attention to it I would be afraid. So I have to just like or remove myself from the possibility that it could flop and I might not do it. And just like focus on that outcome.Patty: And how do you do that? How do you say OK how do you catch yourself because I know we talked right before it hit the record button this last business as you were ready to sell it you're kind of exploring whether to sell or not. And the question of one came up and you find yourself too much in the comfort zone. How did you set by to that?Kelly: So yeah. So I was way in the comfort zone. And I had realized that this business went on for a long time I think I was in it for about 14 years. And it was the most successful business I've ever had. And I was really cool was every day money would show up in my account.Patty: Unbelievable.Kelly: Magic right. It just it was a membership company. So there was just always money in my bank account. And when I decided that it just my heart wasn't there anymore. You know like energy my heart like when I woke up in the morning it was like Yeah, let's go do this thing. It wasn't like yeah let's go do this thing. So it was time to change. And I definitely I guess the right word to say is that as I was closing on this business there was a little bit of a head around my throat.Oh what are you doing? Like really. You're doing this. And then the other side of me is just like just don't even think about it Kelly. You cannot think about a bad outcome if I think about a bad outcome. Then I'm stuck. Right. So whenever I go to bad outcome I just like I guess it comes back to at superpower really just turn my brain off it's like whatever. Let's not think about that. We'll think about unicorns and rainbows and Right. It's the only thing I know to do. Like literally right.Right now the way I structured the cell of this business because I want to do it so quickly all of while not all of it but the majority of the revenue comes at the end. So it was a serious leap of faith on this one because I mean I have bills I have ongoing you know expenses and starting a new business but I still went OK well let's just see what happens like worst thing that can happen is I go back and I started another fruit stand or start stacking groceries right. Like.Patty: Gosh you're truly an entrepreneur, like you're like yeah what the worst thing that can happen is and if we can wrap our heads around that and say you know what. You're still going to be OK. You're going to be OK.You have the ability to create money. I mean it's like when you really recognize and coming from a place of if this doesn't happen then there's always something else that mentality is was going to help you stay in the frame of mind that you're going to be OK.And I know that makes sense but I think it makes a lot of sense and I think that people hold on like because I've heard this before and I even had clients like this has to work otherwise blah blah blah my bringing in such a bad energy source. And like it's like you're forcing it to happen and I know I literally have been there too I am notorious. I remember having a coach saying to me you are literally one of the worst hardoholics I've ever seen. And that show me just my wiring. Like I'm going to work myself to death because this has to have it. And it sounds like for you. You almost say OK I'm going to forge ahead on this but I know that if that doesn't work there's always going to be something else.Kelly: There will be I mean if you think about it. We live really easy lives right. Like I mean really occasionally if you look around our lives we're all crazy. So the worst thing that could happen for me isn't that bad right.Like I mean there was a time in my life when things weren't great and I would realize that even in times that weren't great I was still better off than I ever really probably expected myself to be as a child. Right.So I don't even know how to say it it's just that something else will happen. Like you know something better will come along. Things just worked out. Oh there's light all we end on built a fear of life right.Patty: Yeah but you know it really is true. It was just I've meant before we hit the record button I was talking about how I went to dinner with some friends and they are not entrepreneurs. They work for companies and my friend was saying just how unhappy she is and I was talking about how it has literally been seven years since I've been in corporate and I just cannot wrap my head around ever going back and I always say it's because I know too much.Not that I'm so much smarter that I know too much of what it's like to live on the other side. And for me that sound like for you because this is what sparked this comment is that my inner peace of not having to deal with other people's bullshit in a work situation my inner peace is more important.And if there's ever a situation where I'm just not making as much it's ok. I prefer to have my inner peace I don't need the super designer bags, do I like them absolutely. But if that means I have to forego those types of things I know that I'm going to be OK because my inner peace is lost in court.Kelly: Yeah it is true. I mean if you don't feel good inside then it's just not fun.Patty: It's not. And I wish more people understood that. And I mean I've come full circle and that realization is that I just love the perspective that you naturally have that I've had to find out on my own and I think in a very hard way. You know verses like you're just wired that way which is so fantasticKelly: I mean our society doesn't teach that.Patty: No.Kelly: You know I mean it is very much like you need a nose to the grindstone you need to do things right you know if you don't be irresponsible like don't get rid of a business that's working.Patty: Great.Kelly: You doesn't know what's going to happen next.Patty: Yeah.Kelly: that's just kind of social.Patty: Yeah it is just the social pressures and when you finally like all the irrational rules. Right. The really weird unwritten irrational rules that you kind of people are probably thinking you're crazy for doing that. So how did you get over your whole imposter syndrome is it because you didn't want to sell because you didn't know what was next or you didn't want to go into the West next.Kelly: So OK the imposter syndrome this is what happened it was back in August when I really decided OK you know quit partying around like I had a broker. But I really was like you know yeah yeah. Don't like that offer or whatever. Not interested. And I realized that I was really kind of holding on. Right.So I was like what am I doing. I mean why I am holding on. And it's because I had become such a big dog in a small space that it was really easy for me. Right. Like you know I was known in my space. If I spoke people listened. You know it was kind of like ego right it was just like total ego thing.And I was thinking well now I'm just no one right. I'm just no one again in a no one space because I don't even know what I want to do. And in that you know it took me it was probably four months of just kind of wallowing around in that thought process because I was just like well you know who am I going to be. So then I decided I was going to be is Kelly 4.0,Patty: Oh I love that.Kelly: That was it. You know reincarnation here and it's just a joke. And then when I jump I start thinking about like I still if you were to say like you know gone to my head. What are you going to do? I'd be like this.I has done it well. But the truth is is that you know I know what I'm good at and I know where I can help. So it comes together.Patty: Let's continues with the show. So this new brand that you're working on and it very much is in the early stages is fit is freedom. Right.Kelly: Correct.Patty: Can you talk a little bit about your vision as it is right now because we know that you can fit itKelly: No absolutely. What I know. I guess I get so emotional around all of my friends who are whether they're entrepreneurs or women who work for corporations. I hate the fact that something I hear all the time is Oh yeah yeah I know I need to take care of my health. I'll do it tomorrow I'll do it next week I'll do it when this project's done. I'll do it after I launch you know whatever it is and it always is getting put off.And what happens is that I see my friends like you know doing the things that they love to do they start gaining weight. You know become inflexible and they're just not caring for themselves. And it's what I. I got a couple of years ago I started realizing I was getting what I called Launch Hangover's like I would do these big launches right. And then you've got runway up to the launch and you got to clean up after launch will this had three to four month period. Right. And I was just like working my ass off.Patty: Yeah.Kelly: They were successful but I wasn't because I wasn't taking care of myself like you know my food. I'd start having food delivered that was just like the local Chinese food and whatever right. You know things I don't normally do and not going to the gym.So that's where it all came from. I'm like OK I had to turn it around and once I turned it around I went you know this is something that's important because how can you and everyone else and myself do the things that we need to do if we don't sulk it.Patty: Yeah you're absolutely right. I know last year I was focused on work and I was sacrificing a lot of the health and that's so easy to get into that rhythm where you say oh later I'll do it later. And it's just not enough. And I know like something happens after 40 where things are just not working the way that they used to.Kelly: Well Yeah it actually starts out at about 30.Patty: Seriously.Kelly: Yes.Patty: Oh my gosh.Kelly: But it's happening on a cellular level. And so then by 40 if you've been kind of you know doing the work wrapping during your 30s and by 40s it starts showing up and then if you keep doing it then in the 50s you're like oh man can I get it back.Patty: Everything's hurting and it's so much harder.Kelly: Yeah.Patty: Oh wow. So then what is the structure of your new business going to be doing you think is it going to be a membership as well or are you going to do more retreats.Kelly: Well actually a great question. I will start with a simple online 10 week course with coaching a weekly coach course. People can either do it yourself or you know do the coaching monthly.Patty: Yeah.Kelly: That's step one step two is a retreat because I events are in my blood like I just can't help it. I just do events right. I've always done a bit. So a couple of retreats here. That's it no more. And then the final step is a membership where people can be accountable with each other and stay there because there's so much to be said for.Well it's like you're talking about community. Yeah. If you're not connecting. Especially if you're working by yourself right. Like if you're not connecting and you're not having fun and you're not being accountable you're not turn load then trimmed there when you're all together then Life start shrinking and we don't want life to shrink like I mean we do this for ourselves so life can expand and not so it shrinks.Patty: That's so fantastic and it sounds like you have the structure in mind because you've done it before and it's just going to be easy peasy once you hone in on exactly what the experience you want your people to have. And we've heard that before.Kelly: Yeah yeah. I mean it's kind of like Chibbies. Right.Patty: You're like piece of cake. I like this... All right. So then what's your vision for this? It is freedom. Let's say over the next two three years.Kelly: OH OK. Let me clarify that like what does the business end up looking like what is the business. Where is the business? Maybe a little.Patty: Yeah. So for you. What do you wanted to look like. You personally because you've been in your last business you have for 14 years you anticipate holding on the same view. You want to get it to a certain level and suddenly it has that always in the back of your mind.Kelly: Yeah that's a great question. So I've never had a personal brand before. And the reason I haven't is because the personal brand is harder to sell, right. I am kind of at the age now where I probably don't have Kelly 5.0 in me likeYou know I mean really the truth. So what I assume is that I wanted something that was very location independent everything I've had in the past has been tied to the city and the cities but also for me but it's been tied very tightly that way.So location independents small team. I've had big teams I've had little teams. I want little team I want like you know at the most. There are five of us and we are just like kick ass and take names. In a very small group less is more for me these days. My word for the year is ease. I want things to be easy.Patty: Yeah.Kelly: So easy to me is not a big team a simple structure. I don't do one on one coaching because that's not easy for me. It doesn't light me up.Patty: Right. Right.Kelly: So I want things that just make me happy. And I also want a lot more playing in the next couple of years. I kind of dialed the back these last two years. And I mean I'd like to get out and backpack and kayak and things like that. So I've already put big chunks of time in my calendar where I'm just taking off you know.Patty: Oh that's so amazing. I remember hearing on somebody in the online space that is like an author speaker. He said that at the beginning of the year him and his partner they take 100 days on their calendar where they just take off.Kelly: Wow. That's awesome.Patty: So yes that is number one on his calendar when he talks about goals and objectives and all this and then says one of the 100 days. And where are we going. And I thought that was so brilliant because it makes it a lot negotiable.Kelly: Yeah.Patty: And everything else works. Now isn't it.Kelly: Yeah. Now I got to go back and look at my calendar.Patty: I know I thought that was so smart and it just reminded me and I heard him say this like literally four years ago. But it just popped into my head because of the way that you set age you're like I want to do more of the fun and this and that and so what if you sat down on your calendar and just made it a nonnegotiable. And I think that's how it doesn't get away from us because we have a tendency like the largest lets file that later.Kelly: I mean I don't you know I've done that and.Patty: I just love that philosophy. And he's all about my business works for me and my partner in the set up in the lifestyle that we want.Kelly: Right. That is the lifestyle that we're doing rightPatty: Oh Yummy. I was like oh my god that's so smart. So I don't know. I'm all for that and I think that's something to really consider a dodge because I definitely see the value in that. I mean think about it like almost a third of your year is based in enjoyment and connection and the relationship holding for me. Tell me that you're not going to have a richer life just by doing that.Kelly: That's right.Patty: Fantastic. OK. So we're going to turn the corner here. Think of a song that would represent your life. What song would it be?Kelly: OK. Sure. Big fan of James Brown. I feel good.Patty: I love it Kelly I feel good.Kelly: I love it.Patty: That is awesome. OK. And what is one personal development or growth habit that you have that's worked for you.Kelly: Woo maybe a bundle is at work. I have like a little bundle that I have every day. I can't tell you that I knock it out of the park every day. It's probably 70 percent that I hit it. But the bundle is I write a journal. I meditate or I do self-analysis.I put my vitamins out like I am the worst vitamin I'm a perfect vitamin buyer. Terrible vitamin consumer right. So the vitamins go out and then the other thing is I write my goals too.Patty: Oh wow.Kelly: I kind of bundle that little thing into the morning.Patty: Oh that's brilliant. It's a good morning bundle for sure. And then what is your definition of success.Kelly: Wow. I think it has come back to freedom. You know I mean that really is our definition of success to meKelly: Yeah let's say you have that inner peace All the inner peace boy that's what I love it...Patty: And then after all is said and done Kelly what do you want your legacy to be.Kelly: I'm not a person who is generous with her time. Like I don't I don't volunteer. You won't find me you know at the local shelter volunteering but I am generous with my money.And I want to be able to have a legacy where I know that by what I have created I have been able to create. A better life for people who need water for animals who need homes for women who need shelter for children who need love.Patty: I Love that is beautiful. Yeah because when we have money we have choices and more money more choices on how to create more impact.Kelly: Yeah.Patty: Which is really cool. And so how do people get in touch with you if they want to hear more about Fit is freedom what you're doing which backup event this year.Kelly: So you can find us that fitisfreedom.com and that will lead you to the podcast it leads you to me at least your downloads. So once again it's just fitisfreedom.com.Patty: Brilliant so fit is freedom dot com it'll be in the show notes and all the links will be there too. With Kelly's social media handles and ways to connect with her. Kelly thank you so much for being on her legacy podcast.Kelly: Oh thank you. I mean I'm so grateful. Thank you.Patty: Likewise.Here are the links where you can reach Kelly Howard:Kelly Howard (kelly@angeltiger.com),Website: www.AngelTigerFit.com (being rebranded to www.FitisFreedom.com),

Tracklist : -Monie Love : It’s a shame (My sister) (1990) -Twista feat. R. Kelly : So sexy (2004) -Tony Touch feat. Total : I wonder why ? (He’s the greatest Dj) (2000) -Shurik’n feat. Faf LaRage : Mon clan (1998) -Timbaland & Magoo feat. Missy Elliott : Cop that shit (2003) -Snoop Dogg feat. Eve : Ready 2 ryde (2000) -Mafia Trécé : Rencontre du 13ème type (1997) -Run D.M.C. : Suckers MC’s (1983) -Lil’ Kim feat. Shanice : Shake ya bum bum (2003) -Wyclef Jean feat. Jacky & Ben-J : It doesn't matter (Ça ne me fait rien) (2000) -Mims feat. Rasheeda : Like this (2007) -Stomy Bugsy feat. Assia : Mes forces décuplent quand on m'inculpe (Cavale mix) (1998) -Joe feat. G-Unit : Ride wit u (2003) -Gang Starr : Mass apeal (1994) -Corneille : Seul au monde (2002) -Avant feat. Loon : Read your mind (remix) (2003)

15-40 Connection is focused on educating and empowering people about early cancer detection. This education helps individuals become aware of the early warning signs of cancer. Most cancer organizations focus on research for a cure, treatment or support. There are also many cancer organizations that focus on prevention. Unfortunately, we still don't know what causes all cancers, so while some preventative measures can reduce risk; it can't remove the risk completely. Research shows that detecting cancer early improves effectiveness of cancer treatment and also improves the chance of survival, which is why 15-40 Connection is empowering individuals to be aware of the early warning signs to give them their best chance at effective treatment and survival. 15-40 Connection aims to educate and empower individuals with the skills to recognize subtle health changes in themselves, rather than rely only on medical professionals. Through 15-40 Connection's 3 Steps to Early Detection individuals learn how to become active participants in their own health care so cancer as well as other illnesses can be diagnosed earlier. The result is a quicker return to health and most importantly lives saved. For more information: https://www.15-40.org  As Vice President for Engagement for 15-40 Connection, Kelly Fattman supports educational outreach and national communication that teaches people how to detect cancer earlier. She is passionate about saving lives through the power of early detection. While working in this role, she experienced health changes herself that lead to a brain tumor diagnosis. Kelly put into practice the exact education she was delivering to change the outcome of her situation. Using 15-40 Connection's 3 Steps Detect, Kelly became one of the most valuable members of her health care team. After describing how her health changes felt, she was told by two doctors. “That doesn't make sense.” Her health changes were different from what they had seen most often. As they put the piece of the puzzle together to determine her diagnosis, Kelly continued to trust how she was feeling and shared that information. It was because of one of her symptoms that were not making sense that her doctor ordered additional tests which revealed her brain tumor. Had Kelly not shared that information, her diagnosis would have been delayed, the brain tumor would have continued to grow, her treatment options would have been more limited, and the chances of lasting side effects would have risen significantly. Prior to her role at 15-40 Connection, Kelly, helped companies large and small launch products, reach new audiences and improve customer engagement. Some of the major brands she has worked with include Reebok, Dunkin Donuts, American Express, New Balance, and the Boston Marathon. Here's the Transcript of the Interview Hugh Ballou: Welcome to this episode of The Nonprofit Exchange. And yet another interesting guest, Russell. What do you think of that? Russell Dennis: Good-looking and interesting and smart. Dedicated. Those are the kind of people that show up here. I like it. Hugh: We attract really brilliant people who have good stories. Kelly, welcome to The Nonprofit Exchange. Kelly Fattman: Thank you for having me. Hugh: We had a struggle with technology, but we conquered it. Here we are. Let's start out. I don't like these dry introductions of people. I like people to tell me a little bit about themselves. What about you is important to the work you do? Then talk about this organization, 15-40 Connection. Kelly: It's interesting because I have a background in marketing and development. I have spent the last part of my career, probably the last ten years, in strategy, development, and activation, specifically around customer engagement. When I came to 15-40, my role was to really help to drive engagement and scale because we really needed to scale our message. We knew it was life-saving education, and we needed to get to as many people as possible. What is unique in my story is I was working as a consultant, and then I had a health change. Part of our education is about noticing changes in your health and acting on them. I did that. I call it my orientation to the business. I was in real time in my life testing our education. Does it work? My health change was significant. I did see a doctor. I had some challenges with getting a diagnosis, but I pushed. I became the empowered patient, which is something that we talk about, and got to an accurate diagnosis, which really changed my life. That makes me not just a business professional, but also a consumer. That combination has been very successful as we enter the drive of this mission and our need to scale it and our ability to scale it. Hugh: Kelly Fattman, y'all aren't from the South, I can tell. Where are y'all from? Kelly: I am actually born and raised right outside of Boston, Massachusetts, but my parents are from Pennsylvania. I have a little bit of a mixed problem going on here. Hugh: Russell is over there in Denver. They got a really distinctive accent, which you can't tell. The South is very distinctive, and in New England, it is of course really distinctive. Tell us a little bit about 15-40 Connection. Kelly: Our mission is we teach people how to detect cancer early. It's that simple. There is a ton of companies. Once you are diagnosed with cancer, there is a bunch of resources to access for treatment, care, mental health, and research. When it comes to the path that leads to diagnosis, there is nobody who does what we do, which is unfortunately why we are doing it. The founder wasn't necessarily looking for something else to do, but when he saw this opportunity and the gap that was available to people to maintain their health and survive cancer, he acted on it. Our education is teaching people how to recognize symptoms, act on those symptoms, and connect with their doctors to get an accurate early diagnosis. Hugh: Outstanding. On your site, there is a core educational message called Three Steps Detect. Kelly: Correct. Hugh: Say more about that. Kelly: The Three Steps Detect is our core education. It is really the entry point of what you learn when you're learning about early detection. We broke it down into three simple steps. If you follow these three steps, it will lead to not only potential cancer diagnosis early, but really diagnose anything. We have heard from people this year that have diagnosed heart disease, kidney stones, things along those lines. We know that it's not just cancer that can be detected early. It can be anything. We know that anything detected early gives you a better chance of survival, better health outcomes, getting back to your life quicker, back to health quicker. Hugh: It's not just cancer? Kelly: We are focused on cancer, but the interesting byproduct of our education is it's helping people find other things as well. But our primary focus is cancer. Hugh: Wow. So you started telling a story that you had a health change. It brought you- How did you connect with 15-40? Was it already in existence? Kelly: I was actually working here, and they were developing the curriculum Three Steps Detect. We had been doing education before I got here but knew that we needed to tighten it up, be clearer on the message, get something that was memorable and actionable. That is what I was working on. When I had the health change, I followed the three steps quite honestly. The biggest step we talk about is the part where the patient interacts with the doctor. Doctors, we call them detectives. They only can solve the case based on the clues that are provided to them. We are the people who provide the clues. I was providing my clues; however, the doctors basically outlined to me that what I was saying didn't make sense, that my explanation of my symptoms couldn't be what they are. I stayed true to my story because of what I learned here, and ultimately they ordered the right test and got to an accurate diagnosis. I had two diagnoses prior to the third, which was the accurate one. Hugh: Some of us listening that are paranoid. When I visit people in the hospital, I start hurting when they start talking about their operation. Can you give us an idea of those three steps? Kelly: Sure. First step is to know you're normal, to know that you're great. What's good for you? When you wake up in the morning, how do you feel on a good day? We don't have a checklist, but it's setting benchmarks. What's your normal sleep patterns? What is your normal energy level? What are your bowel habits? Those are the things you should be checking in with. How is your skin? Do you have a lot of moles or just a few? Are you watching your skin? If new things come in that weren't there before. It's knowing what your normal is so if something changes, you can recognize the change. That is step one. Step two is the two-week rule. Since you have set the base of your normal, when something changes, you'll notice. Your stomach starts to act up. Maybe you're going to the bathroom differently. You're more tired than normal. Most things will clear up after two weeks. The flu, pneumonia, the common cold. There are lots of things that after two weeks solve themselves. If after two weeks you are still feeling these symptoms, we recommend you go check it out. It does not mean you have cancer. The two-week rule helps people not to be a hypochondriac, as you stated; it helps them to be calm because they say, “Okay. In two weeks a lot of things go away.” Two weeks gives them a reason to go check it out. The third step is the sharing with your doctor. That piece is the most critical in that it's what I outlined earlier. What you say to your doctor is going to determine what they know about you. They don't have X-ray vision. They can certainly order tests, but they don't know which ones to order if you are not sharing the right information with them. Ultimately, that relationship is critical. In this time where health care is so challenging and so variable across the country, it is understanding all the different scenarios that people can enter. Some people have long-term relationships with primary care. Others use urgent care or medical clinics, so it's a one-and-done environment. It's making sure the patient is driving the conversation, and they are driving the outcome to early diagnosis because if we don't drive, the doctors and the way the model is now built, they don't have the infrastructure and support systems, most of them, to do the follow-up and the additional work. They also don't know how you're feeling, so you go to the doctor and leave and don't follow back up with them, but you're still not feeling well. How are they going to know? Those are really the three steps. Hugh: I guess it's tricky. We all assume that the doctor knows everything. They tell you something, and it's a tendency for us to want to shut down. What I hear you saying is that we learn to be assertive in talking about ourselves. Is that the context you're talking in? Kelly: We say the best chance is you, the empowered patient. It's all of those. It's the strength of believing in yourself, trusting in your instincts, not being embarrassed. Some of the cultural norms. In the times we grew up, people didn't question their doctor. I'm not sure people are being raised the same way now. I think now is the right time. You know you the best. It's about a partnership with a doctor; it's not about us versus them. It's about creating a partnership between you and them. Hugh: That is a really helpful paradigm because- You called them a detective a minute ago. We have to give them the clues. They depend on us telling them. I have a very good doctor who listens very carefully and spends time and asks me very good questions. Sometimes those are questions about things I have never thought about, but you are helping me think about being prepared in case I wake up and it's not normal. If you are not normal, you wait two weeks, and if it doesn't go away, then you make an appointment. Is that what I heard you say? Kelly: That's exactly right. We also say that if something changes significantly, like you break your leg or you have a really sharp pain or something along those lines, then you don't wait two weeks. It's making sure you understand the difference. Our teaching is about the subtle, persistent changes that hang around that wouldn't necessarily impact your ability to go about your day. Those are the ones you wait two weeks and they usually clear up. Things that are more like the symptom I had was more significant. I had a sharp pain in my head that would come and go, but it was nothing I had ever felt before, very different from my normal and was more dramatic. It wasn't subtle, I should say. I acted quicker than two weeks. Hugh: Why is 15-40 Connection a 501(c)3? Kelly: Essentially because a nonprofit is the best way to get to everybody. Our mission is to educate people on how to detect cancer early. The fact is it wasn't being done before. Now that the issue is raised, you have to build the case to get the education out there. What we were able to do is build the case with funders and people who are interested in the nonprofit space to make a difference and save lives. That is how we landed as a nonprofit segment versus a for-profit who would be selling the education, which is not the motivation of the founder and the other people who work here. Hugh: It's to make it accessible to more people. Kelly: Yes. Hugh: Russell, what are you hearing here? Do you have questions or observations? Russell: That is remarkable. I can think back to a health change that I had when I was working for the IRS. There was some signs. I did not act. In my case, I can speak for myself. I think fear was a factor. Does your education program go to address those things that people may have, these fears that going to the doctor could cause me to miss work or my insurance may not be adequate? Fear is unreasonable often. It doesn't make any sense, yet it is there. Does your program address any of these fears that people may be experiencing or provide a space where people can discuss it? Kelly: Yes. Fear is the #1 issue. People say, I'm afraid to go. If I don't go, it will go away. The reality is that that fear, where it's unfounded is if you catch it early, great. That's a win because you can take care of it. If you don't have anything, that's great, too. Both are celebration points. We do have a natural fear of what the doctor is going to say. We also on the flip side of that want the doctor to say you're okay. Once the doctor says you're fine, we say, Oh, great, even though you still don't feel well, even though the symptoms still persist. You heard them say you're okay, and that's what you want. We call it the get out of jail free card because that is what people are looking for. You have to trust your instincts. You have to trust yourself. A lot of the teaching is about recognizing the obstacles, all that you just outlined, that keep people from going and keep people from getting the early detection because of those obstacles. Russell: Do you have any statistics—I think you might be a source for it—of people who are finding out that they have cancer, let's say late detection? Are there- How many cases are there where people are finding out too late that they could have been treated or the treatment becomes more difficult because they waited? Do you have any of those numbers per chance? Kelly: I don't have them at my fingertips. What I can share with you is one in two men and one in three women will be diagnosed with cancer in their lifetime. Those numbers are staggering. That is about 40%. That is a big number. We need to get as many of those people to detect cancer in stage zero or stage one. We also know the cost is significantly different. We do have data that supports stage one care versus stage four is the difference is probably 300-400%. The other thing is they just started to publish these studies now in the National Journal of Medicine and a few others around. Misdiagnosis is a blind spot that has been ignored for the last 20 years. The misdiagnosis leads to the lack of early detection. The more diagnoses you get that are inaccurate, the longer the pathway is to the correct diagnosis. There has been a lot of studies published on that. But the actual numbers of early versus late haven't found that yet. But we are continuing to see stuff like that pop up. Russell: That is a lot of people, 40% of the population. That is staggering. Is that how it's been historically? Have we seen an increase historically? Kelly: I don't know how long ago it was tracked. I can't answer that. But I know certain cancers are on the rise, some in younger people, like colon cancer and some others. I am not sure to answer your question if it's on the rise. But the number is staggering. And not rising at a percentage increase like the opioid epidemic. It's relatively static from the way the government sees it. I know that. Huge numbers, but not these kind of growth rates that are alarming to people. Hugh: You said with men, it's one in two. That would be us, Russell. Russell: That would be. I get that. The funny thing is because Kelly was plugged into 15-40. Kelly, because you were plugged in there, you were looking at being proactive about this problem and actually going out to solve it. In my case, I just instinctually shied away from it. My boss and her boss had two separate one-way conversations with me to tell me to go to the doctor. They actually had to threaten to fire me before I did it. That is how strong the fear around facing this was. With men in particular, and it doesn't surprise me, we like to be angry and flex our muscles and growl, which is a good mask of fear, to be angry for guys. Kelly: No one looks forward to sitting on a stool in someone's office. It's not a position of power, I like to say. Hugh: No, it's not. Russell, thanks for sharing that story. I guess you went to the doctor then. Russell: I did because they threatened to fire me. It was crazy. Once I found out what was going on with me, I was a lot calmer. I approached it a lot better. I was a lot more optimistic than letting go of it. Because I chewed on it and kicked it around for a while. I had a support system of people around me who were there to help me gather information. Good friends that came. My goddaughter and other friends. They said, “Okay, we are going to go with you. Just listen to the doctor. We are here. We can take notes. We can use your voice recorder on the phone. Just lean into it and listen and share where you are, what's going on.” It was a partnership. It was a team approach. Some of the things that I heard, whoever went with me didn't hear. There were a lot of things that people went with me to these appointments heard that I didn't hear. We were able to gather all of this information because when you sit in the chair, facing the treatment, a lot of times you're overwhelmed with things going on. There is economics, your affairs going forward, how I am actually going to feel. Am I going to be able to go back to my life as it was with work and with family? There are just a ton of uncertainties and a ton of questions that people face. Having people that have gone through it, having the education, having that support network to say, “Look, it's better to face this stuff sooner rather than later, and you're not alone” is critical to getting better. I have recovered fully. I have been in remission. I am approaching six years since the completion. Kelly: Yay, I like those stories. You bring up a good point about examples of people sharing examples. That is our model of education. We use storytelling. We use people who have had cancer diagnoses and gone through the process. They either detected cancer early or they didn't. The different outcomes they had as a result, it really is powerful because it helps people live the situation through other people, which can make it less scary. I appreciate you sharing your story, and I am very happy for your outcome. Russell: The unspoken thing my doctor said: We have some challenges, but he hinted at the fact that if I had come in a bit earlier, it would have been easier to treat. He wasn't sure how things were going to go. They are not always sure. They don't have crystal balls. It's important to get all of that information out there. No detail is too minor. Get that information out there to assess the situation to find out exactly where you are and what steps you can take. Hugh: Kelly, earlier in your dialogue, you talked about the support systems you have. When people find out, there is an emotional side to this. How do you help people there? Kelly: We are really the path that leads to diagnosis. We are trying to encourage and engage and empower people to go through the process to get to the diagnosis. As I had said when we started, there is a lot of groups and organizations that support once the diagnosis is made. That is not our focal point. Our focal point is making sure people get to the doctor and get that diagnosis if indeed that is what is wrong with them so they have more options and better chances for care and better health outcomes. Hugh: Two more things I am thinking about. People like to say, “I'm too busy to do some of this.” How do you encourage people to cut through that excuse and do what's important? Secondly, when they actually make the appointment, how do you empower them to have that meaningful conversation with your doctor? Kelly: An hour today could save you ten hours tomorrow. Busy is busy. Everybody is busy. At the end of the day, getting to the doctor, taking the time today to get the early diagnosis could save you so much time, so much money, and your life quite frankly. It's about prioritization. It's not easy. At the end of the day, how many people prioritize themselves first, especially when you are a parent with children and with a job? But you have to reinforce it as often as possible that to the people who love you, alive is the option. They want you alive, and if it is going to mean that you don't get to make that lunch because you went to the doctor early or you might miss the last meeting of the day, you are not effective if you are not in the meeting at all. Fortunately, that is one thing that is shifting. It does feel there is support out there in corporate wellness and those environments to focus on health. It sounds like even your experience, people were like, “Get to the doctor or you're fired.” I love to hear that because they are prioritizing your health over the bottom line of the company. Not everybody does it. Not everybody works for supportive people. You have to be number one, or the consequences can be significant. Hugh: Wow. Equipping people to have that conversation. Kelly: It doesn't have to be us or them or me or you. It's more about I'm having something I have to deal with, and I need support for me to go do that. It shouldn't be too much to ask, but I know it can be trickier than it sounds. Hugh: But getting there. When you talk to the doctor. I am guilty of when I get to the doctor, it doesn't hurt anymore. Kelly: Yep. Hugh: So I have to have a good recall. This is what I was feeling. I am self-conscious or nervous, so it has surpassed the slight feeling of pain that I had. I guess there is making notes and being prepared for the doctor. What other ways can people be prepared? Kelly: You just touched on something. In advance of the doctor, make sure you write down everything that you experience. Symptoms, changes in your health, that piece. Make sure you make that list in the Notes app or handwrite them. Inevitably, when you get to the situation, you forget half the things. When you are there, make sure that you go through everything and that you don't, even if you are feeling rushed, it's your time in that room. You have to command it. It's that empowerment thing again. I am not done. I haven't shared everything I am feeling. The two other pieces that have been very helpful in the education are: ask them if they don't know what it is, what could it be? It could be this, or it could be that, or something in between. It gives you some framework to work from. Then you say, Okay. What is the path to the answer? You treat the minimal thing they think it probably is. If it doesn't work, when should I feel better? When should I come back? You have a plan on what the next act is, and you're not waiting around for somebody else to reach out to you. In this day and age, you don't traditionally get a follow-up call. The other one I just touched on is when should I feel better? If I get this ten-day antibiotic, on the tenth day, should I feel better? On the fifth day? When should I feel better? What do I do if I don't? Those two things have been powerful statements to keep people in the driver's seat of the process. Hugh: We don't know what questions to ask. That is helpful. Your website is 15-40.org. The logo is 15-40 Connection. Tell us a bit about the website. There is a Donate button. A Contact. You have a blog. What is on the blog? Kelly: To set the stage, our product is education. It's early detection education. We offer through Train the Trainers, through webinars, and through live presentations with panelists. To support the education we have provided, we have a social infrastructure. We are on all social media platforms, and we have a blog. What we do with our blog is enhance and continue to tell the stories of what we have taught. It's everything from last Valentine's day, we had a blog post on the most important relationship is the one with your doctor. We actually just are launching the 12 Days of Early Detection. Each day someone sings one of the days. At the end, on December 22, you will be able to hear the whole 12 Days of Early Detection. Each day is reinforcing our education. That is what we use all of our social platforms and our blog to do. A lot of it also is through storytelling, highlighting stories of people who have had successful health outcomes as a result of our education or because they didn't have our education, they value it and want to make sure other people have it. Hugh: Start the Conversation. Know the Power of You. Know Your Role. Be Informed. FAQs. The Three Steps Detect. Remember You're Great. Two-Week Rule. Share with Your Doctor. Learn from People Like You. Get Involved. Education & Outreach. Share Your Story. Events. Donate. Find out About Us. You have a team for the marathon. 2018 Boston Marathon. Kelly: We do. We have seven runners who are collectively already over $25,000 in funds raised. That is super exciting. Hugh: That's great. I ran for the Leukemia/Lymphoma Society raising money for cancer. Kelly: For Boston? Hugh: No, I ran Atlanta. Yuengling in Virginia Beach. It is a grand event. They give you a name of somebody who is in cancer treatment who you run for. On your website, you can click on that and find out about joining the team. Is that the idea? Kelly: Our team is full. We have filled all seven slots. You can certainly support our team. Three of our seven runners are cancer survivors. They are out pushing the mission forward and empowering themselves and running a marathon and supporting early detection education, which is amazing. Hugh: I love it. You are sitting in the office? Kelly: I am. Hugh: You're in Boston. Kelly: We are about 35 minutes west of Boston. Hugh: West. Tell us about your staff, your founder, and your board. Kelly: Our founder, Joe Coghlin and his family. It is a good story. Jim, his best friend, Mark Ungerer. Jim said, “He is my best friend, second only to my wife.” How romantic, right? Mark lost his son at the age of 15 to leukemia. Mark, as a lasting legacy to his son, started a successful golf tournament. He funded research to help continue to find cures for leukemia. Mark, years after this tournament started, said to Jim, “If something ever happens to me, would you keep this going?” Jim said, “Of course, I will, but you'll outlive me.” Unfortunately, shortly after that, Mark died. Jim had a commitment to this tournament. He continued to fund the research. He is a very successful businessman. He decided to check out the ROI. For all the funds that were being put into research, what was the outcome? As a result of some of that work, he found this statistic, which showed that there had been an issue around delayed diagnosis and the impact of delayed diagnosis on cancer survival rates. Once he found that and recognized that nobody was focused on it, he met with a family and said, “This is a calling. We can't let this be. We have to do something about it.” That's how 15-40 was founded about eight years ago. We have an active board. We just had a board meeting last night. We have eight members at this point. We are actively pursuing additional board members as we scale and build new curriculum. Our staff has eight people who work across all categories: development, marketing, education, outreach to support the mission and to scale the mission. Hugh: That is music to our ears, isn't it, Russ? Russell and I reframe the word “consultant” to “WayFinder.” We don't give people fish; we teach them how to fish. We work with many nonprofits, and boards are not as active as they ought to be. Russell's specialty is funding. We think about donors and grants, but there are six more streams of funding. It sounds like you have a good thing going, a really solid platform. How many people like you in the office? There is nobody like you, but how many others? Kelly: There is eight total people who work in the office each day. A lot of us are out of the office because our education is we are out in schools, in corporate wellness, on college campuses. We are spread all over. There is eight total in the moment. Hugh: Do they all wear black furs to work? Kelly: Exactly. This is to celebrate our 12 Days of Early Detection. I wore a fancy jacket so that I could sing. Stay tuned. Watch our Facebook page. Hugh: You are going to sing. Your Facebook page is 1540 Connection. Twitter is @1540connection. YouTube is The1540Connection. Instagram is 1540connection. No hyphen. Just written out. Kelly: Each day, we will post. Everybody is singing a day of early detection. Hugh: Love it. That is clever. Russell, we are on the last stretch of our interview. I bet you got some observations and closing questions for Kelly. Russell: I love the fact that everybody is cross-trained and understands everybody's function and role and taking that responsibility onto yourselves. It's marvelous. Spreading the wealth and spreading the joy. I love what you're doing. I'd be interested to know more about your Train the Trainer process. That is something that should be spread beyond Boston. I think it should be spread around the country so that people understand what they are looking at. Kelly: Because of technology, we were able to do a Train the Trainer in Florida. We are national. Our feet on the street is here in Boston, so we have deeper traction here. We are definitely moving across the Mississippi and trying to hit all four corners and the center of the U.S. and make sure everybody gets the education. Hugh: One of your tabs says Get Involved. If people are not in Boston, how do they get involved? Kelly: So many ways. You can get involved through social media. You can share our story with your network. You can bring our education through your schools or corporations. You can also sign up for Train the Trainer. You can bring us to your college campus. It really is endless. All the opportunities are posted there. There is also an email capability to tell us what you're thinking. We are nimble, so we are constantly looking for new ideas. We welcome all ideas. Hugh: Amazing. So Kelly, as we wrap up here, is there something we haven't covered that you want to share? What parting thought do you have to leave with our listeners? Kelly: As our founder says, “Health is wealth.” At the end of the day, if you are not healthy, everything is a struggle. We have the capacity to get well. Most people can access a doctor or a hospital. Taking the extra time to do that if something changes in your health can be a life-saving decision. Our founder says often, “Don't be selfish. Think about all the people who love you. If you make this decision and you are negatively impacted as a result, they are, too.” That is a strong statement. It's not just about you. It's about everybody around you. I have young kids. I am being wheeled into the hospital with a ten- and eight-year-old. That is not an easy pill to swallow. You want to come out and make sure that you are there for them. I think that is the key component of all of this. Make it a priority because at the end of the day, nothing else matters. If you don't have your health, the rest is not going to happen. Hugh: Amazing. Russell, those are good words, aren't they? Russell: They are wonderful. Thank you for making this information available to a lot of people. It's a worthwhile cause. Access to information and resources is critical, especially in today's climate of rising costs. The thing that I would say to people as a closing thought if you got some things going on and you are stopping to think, Well, I don't know if I have the money or the resources to pay for it, I will point out that I have never seen a U-Haul behind a hearse. Dead people don't pay bills. Hugh: Kelly, thank you for making time. I know you have a lot of things to do. Thank you for sharing your story with all of our listeners. Kelly: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is the second of my three-part interview with Robin Kermode, actor and author or the terrific book, Speak: So Your Audience Will Listen. I love this book and the audio book that you can also order. Public speaking is something all execs have to do. And honestly, his book has done more to help me in my public speaking self-confidence than any other book or class I have read or attended. And this podcast series, especially designed for BankBosun audiences will hopefully do the same for you. And if you like it, buy his book and consider his company to help you and your team. Kelly Coughlin is CEO of BankBosun, a management consulting firm, helping bank C-Level officers navigate risk and discover rewards.  He is the host of the syndicated audio podcast, BankBosun.com.  Kelly brings over 25 years of experience with companies like PWC, Lloyds Bank and Merrill Lynch.  On the podcast, Kelly interviews key executives in the banking ecosystem, provide bank C-Suite officers, risk management, technology and investment ideas and solutions to help them navigate risk and discover rewards, and now your host, Kelly Coughlin. In part one, we covered five of the seven steps, nerves, confidence, connection, voice and body language.  In part two, we will cover structure and delivery with some focus on PowerPoint type presentations.  If you listened to part one you will recall Robin overcame his fear of public speaking by once appearing totally naked on the stage.  Robin, are you on the line, and tell us where you are right now, and are you on the stage, and do you have all your clothes on now? Robin: [Laughs] Hello Kelly.   Yes, I am in sunny London and I am fully clothed.   Although it’s audio only, I am fully clothed. Kelly: Excellent.  So, for a minute, let’s talk about eye contact. Give us a couple tips on using eye contact to enhance the connection with an audience.   And are there different techniques for large groups or medium groups and small audiences? Robin: Yeah, okay, eye contact is really instinct.  I maintain that if you can be authentic with a small group you can also be authentic in a large group.  Of course, it feels much more exposed, you know, when you are on a big stage, like the sort of TED talk type of thing.  I write quite a lot of articles for the newspapers and I wanted to write an article about TED talks, under the title of something like, How to Give Good TED talk without looking completely smug and overconfident and self-satisfied.  Because there is something about the style of those TED talk deliveries which have become a bit ubiquitous now.  And I think even CEOs feel they have to be a bit like that, you know, with the radio and mike around the head and everything and they have to have this very, very long pauses and very stylishly over-rehearsed deliveries, and I am not sure how authentic that is actually. I think it looks very, very rehearsed.  There are some people who can pull it off, you know, the Steve Jobs type of approach when he was launching a new Apple product.  There was a big buzz around that, you know, but I think for a CEO to come and do that it just looks a bit odd, I think, you know, in our internal conference environment.  But what we want to do is, we want to connect with everyone.  And the way we connect with them is to make sure that we look at them.  You can’t look at everyone but you can look individually at people.   Now, in a large hall, of course, you can’t see their eyes because you can maybe see the first five, ten rows but you can’t see beyond that very clearly. So, the trick is to look as if you are looking at one person, which means you choose a spot in an auditorium. You maybe look at somebody, maybe three rows back.   You look straight at them in the eye and then maybe you look about 40 rows back at a slightly different point as if you are looking at somebody.  And what it does is, by choosing different areas of the room it looks like you are talking specifically to an individual person.  So, if you look at about 20 people around the area you are looking at toward the back of the hall they will all think you are looking directly at them because of the angle of the width of the projection.  I worked at how to do eye contact when I went to see Hamlet a few years ago at the national theater in London.  And I was sitting on the front row, I was very lucky to be sitting bang on the front row, and the actor playing Hamlet was about to do the famous speech, To Be or Not to Be.  I’m sitting down in the front row and there is a long pause and Hamlet came right down to the front of the stage, I mean, I could almost touch him, I was that close, and it is 1700 people behind me, big auditorium, and Hamlet’s there looking up and I am so close to him thinking this is... what a wonderful chance to see this famous actor playing Hamlet so close up.  And then he suddenly looked straight down at me and said, “To Be or Not to Be.” It was sort of electric, that was amazing because he was doing it to me, and then he carried on, and he said, “That’s the question.”  And I met a friend of mine afterwards and I said, it’s amazing, he is doing the whole play to me.  And she said, he is not doing the whole play to you because I’m sitting in the dress circle and he is doing the whole play to me.  And of course, he didn’t do the whole play to me but that’s what it felt like.  He only did two lines to me and he did two lines to my friend in the dress circle but both of us said he did the whole play to us.  So, the secret of eye contact is to have one thought with one person and one thought with another.  And in a large hall you have one thought with one area of the auditorium and another thought with another area.  As long as you connect with everyone, at some point they will feel they have been with you, they have actually connected with you.  What a lot of people do is they sweep the room with their eyes.  They sweep from back side, left to right and up to down. They are almost defocusing, they are not really focusing on anyone in particular.  But much better, I think, to come out to an audience and look at a particular spot in the audience and say, good evening, and then look at another spot and say, really nice to see you, as opposed to, good evening, nice to see you, in a sort of scatter gun way, right across everybody.  In the audience, we want to feel special.  We want to feel the speaker is actually, at some point, talking to us, and that’s the way to do it. Kelly: That’s excellent.  Since you mention TED talks, I am a fan of the TED talks 20 minute presenting and then 40 minutes listening versus the traditional business presentation of 40 minutes talking and then 15 minutes Q &A.  Do you like that idea? Robin: I totally agree with that. Kelly: Any tips or tricks, once you have opened it up for Q &A, how to get it going, how to get that first question asked? Robin: I think one of the things is to have a prepared question.  I think one of the hardest things to do, actually, is to ask a question from the audience.  It’s much easier to be on a panel on stage than it is being in the audience asking a question.   Because often what happens is, you think of a question and then by the time the microphone is passed down the line to you and previous questions finished, partly, they possibly answered the question in some way anyway or you can’t quite remember what you had said so the nerves kick in, and so I think it’s quite difficult.  So, I always have a question up my sleeve. Maybe the moderator would say, you know, do we have any questions? And if there isn’t one straightaway, I’d say, excuse me, but I was talking to someone earlier, just before this, and they asked me, of course they didn’t, that didn’t happen but what I am doing is I am posing a question that they might well want to ask or the people have asked in the  past. I’ll frame it as if I was talking to somebody just before and that makes the feeling that it is much more collegiate and then that normally starts the ball rolling. Kelly: So, you pose that question and then you answer it yourself.  Okay, I got it. Robin: I actually answer myself, yeah, yeah.   The other thing I have done before is, any question is a great question.  “That’s a great question” sets it off in that way. Kelly: Yeah, I think Socrates or one of these guys said, Confucius said, “He who asks a question is a fool for a minute.  He who never asks a question is a fool all his life.” Robin: You know, you’ll regret it as well, you know.   You would also think, I wish I had asked that person.  I applaud people for asking questions because I think it takes a lot of bottle when you are in an audience.  You know, when you are on stage with the microphone you have much more power than you do when you are in the audience.  I really feel it for people asking questions and I am very very grateful when they do.  And I always thank them afterwards, I go up to them afterwards and thank them for asking the questions.  Kelly: Okay, I want to get to a couple of the really kind of mechanical things that aren’t that exciting but I think they’ll be helpful.  Tell us your thoughts on standing and what to do with our hands. Robin: Okay.   So, you have basically got about five choices with what to do with your hands.  You’ve got hands behind your back, which is a bit military.  You’ve got hands down by your side, which is an interesting one.  So, if you stand there open very much, open body language, you know, with your hands standing by your side, it’s what actors call actors neutral.  And the reason that actors do it, the next time you go to see a theater play watch out for it.  Actors do it because it’s very very easy for the audience to go between the two characters having a conversation on stage.  Because physically they are quite still but mentally and emotionally it’s quite cut off and quite fiery.  Physically they might be quite still and in life very very few people do it.  The people who carried off best normally are world leaders making big pronouncements on the world stage, and they quite often do it, and they look very very open but it’s quite hard to do.  And often it looks a bit grand, I think, in many situations.  Some people like it but I would say it’s quite hard.  And hands in pocket, obviously, is just a cultural thing but also on an animal level you don’t show your hands it’s the sign of hiding something, maybe nerves or a gun or whatever but I think the ones that most professional speakers use, most politicians, most TV presenters.   I have my hands held lightly together around the line of my belt, so just below the belly button.  And the reason that works is that’s your emotional center so you feel protected in that position but it looks open. Obviously, if you cross your arms you look closed but this looks open in that position.  I use my hands a lot so my hands are moving around all the time but when they finish, whatever the move is, then like a magnet they are drawn together level with the belt. Kelly: Excellent, and feet are shoulder width apart.  Robin: Yeah, hip width apart is the best way.   And the reason feet even weight is good because it tends to make your spine straight, and if your spine is straight your ribs will breathe better and so you have more air.   You look more centered but also actually physically you are more centered.  And if they’re too wide it looks inappropriately, you know, like a wild west cowboy, just got off your horse. Kelly: You talk about five types of body language, four variations of closed which are aggressive, defensive, nervous and bored, I don’t want to spend any time on those, I want us to focus on the one version that you recommend is open and interested.  Talk about that and include smiling in that, because I think that’s part of the key part of body language that makes one open and interesting. Robin: It is.  The closed ones, obviously, are, you know, crossing your hands and rubbing your face and shifting the weight and the yawning and all that sort of stuff.  But the open interesting body language, this is where we meet somebody who genuinely looks like they want to connect with us.  They will probably have a reasonably firm handshake, but not too firm.  They will have good eye contact; they won’t be embarrassed to hold our eye contact so they will actually look us in the eye.  They will have a confidence stance but they will have a low center of gravity if they get it right.   Their gestures will be quite relaxed but smiling is instinct because it changes the sound of our voice as much as anything else.  And the other thing about smiling is, it’s easier than frowning because actually it takes 42 muscles to frown and 17 to smile.  So, it’s far fewer muscles to smile.  I do voiceovers for TV commercials and stadium events and things and if you have a little twinkle in your eye it changes the sound of your voice, literally changes the sound of your voice.  If you have a cheesy grin, like sort of a cheesy toothpaste commercial salesman, that will tighten your voice, and you can feel it tightening your throat if you try it. But just a little twinkle in the eye, absolutely softens the voice and changes the voice a bit.  And of course, we can tell on a gut level, even if we are not experience in this, we can tell whether someone’s smile is genuine or not.   And the answer is, does the smile reach the eyes?  You can tell when someone’s eyes are really smiling.  And actually, if you want to spot an insincere smile, you want to spot a sincere smile, you look at someone’s eyelid.  You look at the outside corners of the top eyelid, and when you are genuinely smiling that comes down, and it’s almost impossible to fake that one.  So, if you want to see if somebody is really smiling look at the top outside corner of their top eyelid. Kelly: Interesting.  Let’s get to the last question I have in this part one segment on presentations, is presenting while sitting down. What are your thoughts on that? Robin: Well, presenting when sitting down requires energy.  It’s hard because you want to look relaxed and calm.  There are basically two ways to sitting, actually, in a meeting if you are presenting.  The best way actually is to sit forward on your chair.  It is to push your chair slightly further back than you would think away from the table and sit on the front edge of the chair and have both feet flat on the ground.  I was coaching a lady the other day who is the CEO of a big company and she was trying to raise 100 million or whatever for her company and we were rehearsing her pitch to the financial institutions.  And after about 15 minutes of this rehearsal pitch she started coughing and so she asked for some water and I just looked under the table and I just said to her, okay, could you just put both feet on the ground, because what she had been doing was having her feet crossed, so they weren’t flat on the ground they were crossed.   And I said, just try that, and interestingly enough, once you put both feet flat on the ground she didn’t cough for another forty minutes.  So, what that does, by having both feet flat on the ground and sit forward on your chair, both feet flat on the ground, it tends to make your spine a little bit more straighter and it brings your voice more forward, and you get more air out and therefore you don’t tend to hurt your throat.  The second way of sitting is what I call the high-status CEO position which is sitting further back in the chair, often with your legs crossed, maybe with weight on one arm.   So, it’s quite a sort of senior politician TV interview type position.  And I see a lot of CEOs do that at boards, they sit slightly away from the table, giving themselves quite high status. It can work, and it just depends on the situation, but those are basically the two ways of sitting when you are presenting ourselves. Kelly: Exactly.   So, to summarize, I’ve got, number one, feet are hip with the part.  Number two, thighs or buttocks clenched.  Number three, hands held together close to the stomach. Number four, speak from the gut.  And then five, smile.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Robin: Definitely. Kelly:  You indicated in your book that there are three essential questions that needed to be asked and answered in your talk, what are they and why are they important? Robin: Okay, well the first one is, why are you giving this talk?  And it seems a very obvious question, why are you giving this talk? The reason I have to ask people this often is, I sit, I would say maybe two or three times a week, in an audience listening to a talk and I think, I am not quite sure why that speaker who is giving the talk. They are giving me lots of information but I am not quite sure what they want out of it.  So, I think the speaker always needs to know what is their reason for giving the talk and what do they want successful talk look like to them at the end of it.  What are they trying to do?  And there are basically two types of talk.   Of course, there is a talk to sell or to motivate.  And those are basically the only two types of talks.  So, even family talks like at a wedding or even a eulogy at a   funeral, they are ultimately motivational talks, otherwise they are sales.  And sales talk will always require an ask at the end of it. You are giving this talk so that the audience thinks differently, behave differently, buys your product, does something differently.  So, those are selling and motivating talks.   We need to be very clear what we are trying to do.  I was coaching a guy recently and he has got a big company and he was going to give a speech to two and a half thousand employees and I said to him, okay, so before you rehearse your speech with me, what are the reason you are giving this talk? Why are you giving this talk?  And he said, well, I am sort of giving an update.  I said, do you know what, with greatest respect, nobody wants an update.  Why are you really giving this talk?  And he said, well, you know, I have got various things to say.  I said, no, no, we’re not really clear what the point is.  I said, but I tell you what, can I make a bet with you?  I am in the UK so I said, I took out a 10-pound note and I put it on the table and I said, I put 10 pounds down so I am going to make you a bet.  And I am not really a betting man but I’ll make you a bet.  About three minutes into our talk I bet you will say something like, so I suppose the real point is.   And he said, yes.  And I said, fantastic, thank you, I’ll take your money.  I said, can we start with the real point?  So, it is so much better for him to stand up there and go, I suppose the real point is this.  If that’s the question that the audience wants answering, then of course you are home and dry.  So, it’s about, why are you giving this talk?  And the second one is, why should the audience care?  And that’s the bit we just did up top there.  Why should the audience care?  You have got to get into the audience’s head, they have given up their time, they have given up 40 minutes of their time or whatever an hour of their time to come and hear you speak so what value are you going to add? Why are you giving them some information?  Why is that relevant to them? And if we construct the talk from that point of view, being aware also of why we are giving it but ultimately, why they should care.  And then the final question is, what are you really saying?  What are you really saying?  So, we are clear, why do we want to give it, we care with the audience, what’s the benefit they can get from it, and what are we really saying.  And I think if you can say it in one or two sentences then you are really clear.  If you can’t say it in one or two sentences, you don’t really know what your speech is about.  I wonder if I could share something incredibly personal.  It might be interesting. Kelly: Yes. Robin: My father died recently. We have five children in the family, and my sister said, could she speak at the funeral? I said of course you can.  I said, you know, how long are you going to speak for?  She said, well I thought about it, I am going to speak for about 14 minutes.  And I said, Okay.  I said, that’s quite long, and also there are five of us. So, I said, you know, do you think you can cut it down at all?  And she said, well, it’s quite hard, isn’t it, and I have got lots of things to say about my father. So, are you going to speak?  And I said, yes.  She said, well, how long are you going to speak for?  And I said, well, I thought about it very carefully and I am going to speak for exactly 60 seconds. And she said, well, you can’t say everything you want to say about your father in 60 seconds.  You can’t do that.  I said, you can but it’s harder than 14 minutes because you have to know what you are really saying.  And I ended up my 60 seconds, I spoke a little and then at the end I said, but what I really want to say ultimately is just six words, thank you for being my father, and I sat down.   That was the essence of my message.  So that’s what I was really saying.  I could have given lots of anecdotes and talked about lots of things and said how kind he was but ultimately, that’s what I wanted to say.  And it took me funny enough to write that 60 seconds it took me two days. And it sounds odd but it takes longer to write a 60 second speech that it does to write a 14 minute one. Kelly:  That’s wonderful, wonderful, thank you very much for sharing that.  In these three questions, these three essential questions, why am I giving this?  Why should the audience care? And then what’s the third one? Robin: The third one is, what are you really saying?  And that’s what we just covered there.   What are you really saying? Kelly:  In a nutshell, what are you going to say?  Okay. Should that be introduced at the beginning?  Because it leads to one of your early points of, know how to start a presentation. Robin: Well, I think so.  I think all audience’s attention, well, we all know, audience’s attention spans are shortened.  I love it when a speaker comes on and ask a provocative question or somehow nails it right at the beginning.  And I use something call the headline sandwich which you may well be familiar with under a different name but I call it the headline sandwich which means you start your talk with your headline and you give your talk and at the end you hit the headline again. So, for example, a friend of mine who was asked to speak at a wedding, he was the best-man and he said, could you give me some tips?  And I said, yes.  And I said, before you even start thinking about humor or anything, tell me about your friend who is getting married.  And he got a little bit emotional about this friend and he said, Oh, Peter.  And he said, Pete, he is probably the kindest man I have ever met in my life.  And I said, but you have written your speech there, really.  You have written your speech.  So, at the wedding he stood up and he said, Peter is probably the kindest man I have ever met in my life.  Let me tell you why.  And then he added a couple of anecdotes as to why that was the case and then he ended up by saying, so, can we now drink a toast to one of the kindest man you will ever meet.  And it works in almost every situation.  It works in eulogies, it works at weddings, it works in business speaking.  Kelly: Tell us why ethos, logos and pathos have been so important all these years.  They are kind of never changing and why are they still so important. Robin: Ethos, logos and pathos, in that order, so, it is trust, persuade, motivate.  And they have to come in that order, interestingly.  So, ethos is about building rapport and credibility. So, building trust, in a sense.  So, in other words, trust me I know what I am talking about.  Then there is the logos which is the logical argument.  So, the audience can follow your argument very clearly.  And then pathos is then engaging with them on an emotional level, on an empathetic level. So, we can inspire and motivate.  So, we want to say, you can trust me.  These are my credentials. My persuasion is this.  This is my argument and then now I am now going to emotionally motivate you.  It is a wonderful expression from the 60s advertising guru which is, sell the sizzle, not the sausage.  It’s about selling the excitement of the product not just the product itself.  But you don’t want to sell the emotional stuff before you have done the logic because then if it doesn’t work.  So, we need to go, okay, I’m a car salesman, I mean, I obviously know about cars.  This is a logical reason why this is a good car for you based on what you have told me.  And these are now the emotional reasons why I think you really love this car.  You go in that order and it tends to work. And the same way the speech as well. Kelly: Excellent.  You have introduced the five classic starts of a speech, what are they? Robin: Okay, the five classic starts, the most common one, actually, is the benefit, and that’s what sales people do, which is, I’m going to tell you how you can make more money. Here’s a great product for these reasons.    This is the benefit to you.  So, benefit is a classic one, and be very clear what benefit is.  The second one, people in talks do, it is, somewhat, radio stations do it.  It is what they call the tease.   So, you say, I am going to tell you how you can double your money in the next 10 minutes, but first of all, I am going to do something else.  So, you tease them with something that’s coming out, that’s the tease.  The question is the other one which is, it can be the same as benefit, it’s just in a question form. So, it can be, grabbing the audience’s attention, you know, who here wants to double their money in the next 10 minutes, just that.  Who here wants to look after their retirement planning better? I do a talk on charisma, one of my talks is the opening question which is, can you teach charisma?  Very simple question but what it does is, it absolutely frames the talk.  Can you teach it or is it something that you are born with?  Right up front and the audience know exactly what is there.  The shock is the other one.  And this is quite often used internally in business meetings where you say, if we don’t do this, we are toast.  If we don’t change our behavior we are going to lose all our customers.  There is a real call to action in the shock.  And then this is what politicians love, which is what’s called the three-way opening, you give three things, but actually you talk about things you say you are not going to but actually you do.  Tell you about the current state of the world’s economy.  I could tell you how ill-prepared we are about our retirement planning but instead what I am actually going to tell you about is how you could do this.  They get three points in one but actually they are only really talking about one but they get the others in at the same time.   Kelly: So, I sell consulting services to a community and regional bank so would a classic start be something like this, if I pose it as a question, can a sleepy community bank compete effectively with big brokers and big banks and achieve double digit growth rate, or would it be how can? Robin:  Good point.  The answer to that, it depends on your audience. Both of those questions are great because they are questions that the audience would actually be interested in hearing the answers to.   What’s tempting for people when they are selling their services or their products is, you say, we are the best. There was a wonderful advertising campaign in the 60s for lawn seed.   Their original campaign ran the best lawn seed in the world, and interestingly enough, they didn’t sell very much lawn seed because the audience doesn’t want lawn seed.  What the audience wants is a good lawn.  So, they changed the campaign to the best lawns in the world.  So, customers don’t want lawn seed, what they want is a lovely lawn.  What a customer doesn’t want is your services or my services, they don’t want the services, what they want is the outcome which is, we want to be a more effective team. We want to communicate better. We want to increase our margins, whatever services you are selling.  They are not actually interested in your services.  They are interested in what your services can do for them, which is why your question was in the right way, which is, how can a small bank do this or can a small bank do this?  It doesn’t really matter which way you do it but it’s about...it’s the relevance to the audience that’s important.  And I think if you get the first question relevant to the audience that’s when you get them, but normally, when I see speakers they make the first sentence about themselves and that is where it goes wrong, right from the first sentence.   Kelly: That concludes part 2 of my interview with Robin Kermode, actor and author of Speak: So Your Audience Will Listen. In part 3 we will cover some guidelines on Powerpoint type presentations and why a speech is like a love affair. Any fool can start one. But to end it requires considerable skill. We want to thank you for listening to the syndicated audio program, BankBosun.com.  The audio content is produced and syndicated by Seth Greene, Market Domination, with the help of Kevin Boyle.  Video content is produced by the Guildmaster Studio, Keenan, Bobson Boyle. Voice introduction is me, Karim Kronfli.  The program is hosted by Kelly Coughlin.  If you like    this program, please tell us.  If you don’t please tell us how we can improve it. And now some disclaimers, Kelly is licensed with the Minnesota Board of Accountancy as a certified public accountant.  The views expressed here are solely those of Kelly Coughlin and his guest in their private capacity and do not in any way represents the views of any other agent, principal, employee, vendor or supplier.

Sun Tzu and Woody Harrleson Help Banks with Revenue Creation Narrator: He learned strategy by playing chess with his older brother. Narrator: Kelly Coughlin is a CPA and CEO of BankBosun, a management consulting firm helping bank C Level Officers navigate risk and discover reward. He is the host of the syndicated audio podcast, BankBosun.com. Kelly brings over 25 years of experience with companies like PWC, Lloyds Bank, and Merrill Lynch. On the podcast, Kelly interviews key executives in the banking ecosystem to provide bank C suite officers, risk management, technology, and investment ideas and solutions to help them navigate risks and discover reward. And now your host, Kelly Coughlin. Kelly: Greetings, this is Kelly Coughlin, CEO of BankBosun, helping community banks navigate risk and discover reward in a sea of risk, regulation, and revenue creation threats. Today we are going to talk about marketing strategy, tactics, and revenue creation. BankBosun has a program for banks called Tactical Ecosystem Marketing. It is the results of three years of research and discussions with marketing experts and community bank executives. It’s a program guaranteed to generate new revenues from all bank business lines. And get all the banks’ centers of influence – that is those people and companies who influence and recommend banks and bankers – get them fully on board and engaged to help you get new customers. Guaranteed. How you might ask? Spoiler Alert: By primarily promoting them – your clients, prospects and influencers – and their businesses and services -  and then secondarily promoting your services and yourself. In 2014, I started researching ways that complex financial technology or financial services companies could be more efficiently and effectively marketed and closed. I use the terms efficiency and effectiveness carefully and intentionally, because they imply a reduction in time, as in shortening the sales cycle; reduction in expenses, travel, entertainment, and other direct business development costs; and reduction in effort, as in reducing the days, months or years it takes to close a deal. This was the challenge and, believe it or not, I actually figured it out.  But first it requires some attention to strategy and tactics and then a discussion on marketing and revenue creation. I have invited my friend Chris Carlson to join us in a few minutes. You see, Chris is one of my favorite people on the planet. He is a lawyer and an actor. Not one of those Hollywood elite actors though – he lives in South Minneapolis. But I think he has a small part in a movie coming out this summer. Chris has been very helpful to me in helping me craft my message and public speaking skills and style to conform not to dull and boring business standards, but to the stage and theater standards. Not that you need to be an entertainer. I certainly am not. Rather, you need to be your true and authentic self. Chris is terrific with this. So I asked him to help me with my messaging on this. And I thought, let’s do it as an interview and a podcast. I know you have heard plenty of people talk about strategy…and some business people use strategy and tactics interchangeably. In war, if you do that, it can be life threatening. In business you can sometimes get away with blurring the two with the result ranging from financial and operational inefficiencies to the ultimate penalty in business…death through bankruptcy. I don’t like to blur them. Because I think it is critical to achieving success to define your strategy and constantly be revising your tactics to implement that strategy. In short, strategy describes the destination and tactics describe the specific actions you will have to take along the way. Generally speaking, strategy doesn’t change that much, but tactics will constantly be adjusted and modified. When I lived in Seattle, I used to have a sailboat. I loved participating in sailing races. There was one race in the winter of 1985. I think they called it the Frostbite Series. This taught me at the age of 25, the real difference between mission, strategy and tactics. There was some heavy weather on the Puget Sound…probably around 25 knot winds. The mission was to have no more or no less a crew suitable to lead, navigate and operate the boat in that competitive situation and in that weather condition. Round each buoy and finish the race in the shortest time; and win the race. Before the race we developed our strategy on buoy placements and how we would round them; wind direction and speed and what sails we would need; and the number of boats, competition and the starting line placement and how we would approach the start. In a sailboat race, if you have a lousy start, you will have a very difficult time making up that time lost. Taking too much risk to cross the finish line ahead of the gun and have to circle back and re-cross could cost you five minutes. In a sailboat this can be painful. Our tactical decisions went something like this. We added one more crew to the boat. We used a starting tactic where we went to the finish line two minutes before the gun, and sailed perpendicular away from the line for one minute. And then we tacked and turned around and started sailing back to the start line. The tactical theory here is that if you sail away from the start for one minute, it should take you more or less one minute to return to the start. If it takes you more, you are late, if it takes you less, you are early. I liked that starting tactic. We decided to not fly the spinnaker because it was so windy. The cost of that decision was a loss in boat speed. But the gain was that we expected others would be more aggressive and fly their spinnaker and either struggle with that during sail changes or perhaps experience a knock down. We adopted a more conservative tactic and hoped our competitors would be more aggressive and get hurt by that. The end result was while we were winning the race, but because one of the buoys had blown free during the gale storm, the race was canceled. We actually chase that windward buoy for about 90 minutes past the original placement of it until they finally notified us by radio the race had been canceled. This one race taught me so much about the relationship between mission, strategy and tactics. In this race our mission never changed. Win the race. Our strategy was defined at the beginning based on conditions and competitive landscape. But our tactics were constantly being modified and adjusted and corrected to deal with the ever-changing conditions and our competitors’ reactions to those conditions. It taught me to not get caught into myopic thinking about how we win a sailboat race. The concept of not flying our spinnaker seemed so very foreign to me at the age of 25. Now, at 59, it makes total sense. In 1980 a Harvard business school professor, Michael Porter wrote a seminal article, “Competitive Strategy: Techniques for Analyzing Industries and Competitors". Commonly referred to as Porter's Five Forces. Porter maintains there are five undeniable forces that play a part in shaping every market and industry in the world. If you haven’t created your own, Five Force Analysis, you need to do so. I love doing these things.  This will help you determine how to modify your strategy and tactics based on your competitive landscape. And always update it at least annually, if not quarterly. So in summary, strategy and tactics work together as means to an end. There are a number of good quotes on strategy and tactics. More on strategy than tactics actually, because frequently the same principles in strategy apply to many, many areas including war, sports and certainly business. I just finished reading the book, POWER by Robert Greene. He even claims that there is strategy and tactic in romance. He quotes the 17th century French poet, Francois La Roche Foe Cou. I bet I butchered that name. Sounds a little like….Well anyway…“A reasonable man in love may act like a madman but he should not and cannot act like an idiot.” I love that quote. Many of the concepts in strategy, apply to many if not all human endeavors. But tactics are more specific to a particular business and industry. There are hundreds of great quotes on strategy and tactics ranging from Caesar in the war versus the Gauls to Norman Shwarzkopf in the first Iraq war. I certainly have a couple favorite quotes on strategy and tactics including this one by Sun Tzu: Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat. But my favorite quote on strategy and tactics especially for smaller banks with limited capital and budgets competing against big banks and big brokers with much bigger capital and seemingly unlimited budgets. It’s a quote by Napoleon, one of the most brilliant military strategists and tacticians, ever. Napoleon said, “The amateurs discuss tactics. The professionals discuss logistics.” I’m going to repeat that. “The amateurs discuss tactics. The professionals discuss logistics.” To me this plays exactly in to my core message in this podcast of revenue creation strategies and tactics that are both effective and efficient. Napoleon is saying, I don’t want to talk about tactical ideas that can’t be implemented, because of logistical constraints…only those we can actually implement. For community banks, this means, let’s not talk about big picture ideas that we cannot afford. Rather, if you have ideas that fit in our budget, then terrific. If not, let’s not waste each other time. Well, rest assured, if you keep listening to this podcast and other video and audio content we have produced on BankBosun.com you will see or hear that these meet the Napoleon standard referenced above. It is a discussion on tactics that are logistically feasible and reasonable for all community banks. So with that in mind, I think I have my friend Chris Carlson on the line. I’m gonna start with a quote from a director who actually despised actors…recall Chris is an actor. Let’s see if Chris can identify the source: “I never said all actors are cattle; what I said was all actors should be treated like cattle.” So with that said, Chris time to come to the slaughtering pen…can I hear your best moo cow imitation? Chris: I’ll try to give you my best moo cow imitation. But I’m first need a motivation. What is my cow trying to communicate? Kelly: First of all, can you identify the source of the quote? What is the source of that quote? Chris: I don’t know. It would have to be some sort of director. It can’t be Woody Allen, because he likes actors. Kelly: Alfred Hitchcock Chris: Alfred Hitchcock, that would make sense. What is my cow trying to communicate? I mean, because it could be Moo (uplifting). He’s trying to solicit an answer from the other cows. Or it could be Moo (forcefully). Like, move out of the way rancher, because he’s trying to cattle prod me into a slaughtering pen. Or it could be maybe a seductive Moo, that wants to get something going with one of the other cows. Kelly: Let me hear that seductive one, again. Chris: Moo, Kelly, Moo. Is that good? I mean. It’s not as good as a pugilist. You can do a good impression of, can’t you? Kelly: What I thought you would do is just like a Mooooooo! Chris: Oh wow! See, that’s why I’m in a nationwide movie opens tomorrow and you’re not. Kelly: Why, ‘cause mine was just too kind of stereotypical? Chris: Well I don't think they'd put your picture on the poster with Woody Harrelson peeing in a urinal. But they did for me. Kelly: Did they? What's the name of the movie? Chris: Wilson. I haven't seen it yet so I can't speak to the quality. But Woody Harrelson is pretty good. Kelly: Alright that is terrific. Chris: And I will not be mooing in it. Kelly: So let's get down to business. Chris you heard my introductory statements, or as you actors call it, a soliloquy. What questions do you have about what I'm doing or how do you want to start? Chris: As an actor you know I want to know how to make money. But you’ve got these kind of inventive ideas with generating revenue as you call it. So why don’t you fill me in and let me know if I can get in on it. Kelly: As I mentioned earlier in 2014, I started researching ways that complex financial technology or financial services companies could be more efficiently and effectively marketed. Technology, the Internet, and mobile devices have enabled many businesses to operate more efficiently and effective in my mind…I think of Uber and many other kind of virtual companies. Many of these companies don’t even have a human being available to sell, support or service. They pride their business models on the ability to open up a sales funnel and close a deal without ever having to talk to or “touch” the customer. Those are “air quotes” under touch. Build a technology platform. Offer it to consumers. Make it easy for the consumer to pay for the services. And collect the money and deposit it. And spend more to capture more consumers and more money. No human interaction at all. If any of you have had to deal with Uber for ride sharing or Facebook or LinkedIn for advertising, you know exactly how challenging it is to talk to somebody there. In their minds, they are the perfectly fine-tuned efficient and effective revenue generators. I use the terms efficiency and effectiveness carefully and intentionally, because they imply a reduction in time, as in shortening the sales cycle; reduction in expenses, as in travel, entertainment, and other direct business development costs; and a reduction in effort, as in reducing the days, months or years it might take to close a deal. This was the challenge and, believe it or not, I actually figured it out. Chris: Well wait a minute though. I mean hasn’t digital marketing and especially social media don't they help with efficiency and effectiveness. That has to have been a good thing, isn’t it. Kelly: Well, yes. In part, it has. Here’s how I see it. There really are two ways we develop business relationships: directly to the buyer and indirectly to the influencers of or to the buyer. The combination of customers, prospective customers, and influencers of customers plus the other businesses and individuals that also sell services to members in that ecosystem, comprise the total ecosystem. All require an investment in time, expense, and effort. Social media like LinkedIn has helped us stay easier connected to buyers and influencers. And this ease has certainly helped with efficiency, as it doesn’t cost much to connect on LinkedIn or Facebook. But in terms of effectiveness, it doesn’t quite get it done in that it really just the beginning of the relationships. It’s more like an advancement of the old days of giving somebody a business card and they stick it in their rolodex. And hope they remember you some time. Do you even remember what a rolodex is?? Chris: Yes, I do remember what a Rolodex is. It's a thing you wear on your wrist, right? Kelly: That would be a Rolex. Chris: Rolodexes are no longer. How do you parse that problem? What's your way to phrase the big dilemma? Kelly: The reality is the method by which we initiate business relationship has changed a bit with social media and email. But developing the relationship, hasn’t really changed that much. We make contact. We connect. We get them in the funnel. Then we do some mix of pounding them with emails, and sending them articles about our products and services or information that we think they would find interesting and useful. We might call them on the phone. Maybe get a face to face. There is always a challenge to deliver sufficiently good and interesting content to get the buyer motivated to accelerate their sales cycle with you. And there is always a struggle to keep your product and your company top of mind to the influencers of the prospect. This all takes time, expense, and effort. And also a patient CEO, board and shareholders. Chris: Well wait, wait, wait. What did you figure out? What did you figure out in terms of efficiency and effectiveness that you were talking about earlier? Kelly: It was my experience as a sales and marketing professional and as a CEO and manager of sales people and responsible for revenue creation, that sales cycles were dreadfully long; sales messaging was painfully repetitive and uninteresting; and there were constant and continual struggles to come up with a new excuse to call a prospect to see where they were in the sales cycle – hot, warm, or cold; and to make sure the center of influence still remembered you as the go-to company for a client referral or recommendation. We’ve been exploring this and we’ve developed a revenue creation strategy that solves the problem of efficiency and effectiveness. We call it Tactical Ecosystem Marketing. It utilizes the cost efficiencies of digital marketing, especially audio content that is produced and syndicated on iTunes, google play and YouTube; coupled with connecting with the client on social media and promoting THEM…not you. At its core, Tactical Ecosystem Marketing is a marketing strategy whose primary focus is not to promote your company and your products, rather to promote your CUSTOMERS’ and PROSPECTS’s company and products. The secondary focus is to promote YOUR business and YOUR products. And the same applies to the Centers of Influence.  You focus on promoting THEIR business and THEIR products and a secondary focus on YOUR business and your products. How do you promote them? Through your own audio podcast program. It delivers high quality content for your sales people to distribute and discuss with your clients and prospects. High quality content for your ecosystem members to distribute and discuss with their clients and prospects. It’s one big fat happy symbiotic ecosystem. Everybody wins. It’s highly effective. It’s very efficient. It’s very Sun Tzu. You attack your enemies’ weakness and avoid their strengths. This strategy and tactic does just that. Chris: So, Tactical Ecosystem Marketing is a revenue creation strategy. And the tactics are designed to help community banks create, publish and syndicate on websites, YouTube, iTunes and GooglePlay and all those other things. And they promote all the products and services of the bank’s ecosystem, as well as its members. Kelly: Yes, Chris. It’s kind of like Tactical Ecosystem Marketing is a way a community bank can pay it forward and in return good things will happen. Well, we're up to the twenty-minute mark. Is there anything you want to add about what you're doing with Narrative Pros these days with you, Chris.   Chris: We're just trying to help people like you Kelly make their point and connect with their audiences. Some people don’t have the gift of gab like you. So, what we do is we try to help them come up with a clear way of conveying their message and do it in an authentic and genuine way. Unfortunately, you do not have need of our services. You're a master and we respect that. Kelly: Hmmmmm, I don't know. I think I have paid you a few dollars over the years to help me Master those skills though. Chris: That's true. You're one of our star pupils, so I will accept that. Kelly: Chris, I appreciate your time. Take care of yourself. Chris: You too! .Narrator: We want to thank you for listening to the syndicated audio program, BankBosun.com The audio content is produced and syndicated by Seth Greene, Market Domination with the help of Kevin Boyle. Video content is produced by The Guildmaster Studio, Keenan Bobson Boyle. The voice introduction is me, Karim Kronfli. The program is hosted by Kelly Coughlin. If you like this program, please tell us. If you don’t, please tell us how we can improve it. Now, some disclaimers. Kelly is licensed with the Minnesota State Board of Accountancy as a Certified Public Accountant. The views expressed here are solely those of Kelly Coughlin and his guests in their private capacity and do not in any way represent the views of any other agent, principal, employer, employee, vendor or supplier.

  Kelly: Hello, this is Kelly Coughlin, CEO of BankBosun. Today we're going to launch a series of podcasts on community banks and the role they have played in our history and the future. Community banks are critical to a community's social and economic ecosystem. I use the term ecosystem carefully and intentionally to describe a system of inter-connected elements formed by the interaction of a community with their environment, and in terms of a social and economic community, in my mind community banks are critical members of that ecosystem. That brings me to this podcast series, in which we're going to focus on community banks. In this series we're talking to a number of executives who are leaders in community banking, and I'm asking them to make community banks more fun and interesting. I think I used the term “humanize” community banks. The community bank has been around a long time. From the Revolutionary War in Massachusetts to the Santa Fe Trail in Kansas; expansions and contractions, recessions and depressions, community banks have seen it all. With that in mind, I have one of those leaders, Sammie Dixon, CEO of Prime Meridian Bank in Tallahassee, Florida. He's not been around since the Revolutionary War, I don't think, but he has seen a lot. Sammie, are you on the line there? Sammie: I am. Kelly: Have you been around since the Revolutionary War, Sammie? Sammie: No, I barely made the '60s. Kelly: Barely made the '60s, excellent.  Sammie, I wanted to talk to you because when I look at your bio and some of the community involvement…I looked at all the involvement that you guys have…and I counted nearly 50 organizations, whether it be the Treehouse of Florida, Toys for Tots, Young Actors Theatre, Good News Outreach, Holy Comforter School, Lee's Place, Opening Nights. I'm not sure what Opening Nights is but..., you've got Florida Tax Watch. You've got over 50 organizations that you guys support one way or another. Talk to me about that. Sammie: Well, Kelly, there was a famous banker here in town by the name of Godfrey Smith, that always stated that a healthy community makes a healthy bank. And if you take care of the community, then the bank will be taken care of, if you're providing good service and charging good, honest rates, paying people good rates, and just making sure that the well-being of each individual client and the community as a whole is taken care of. Kelly: Kind of jumping forward here, what happens in a community when a community bank ends up getting acquired by a national bank or a large regional bank? Does that go away do you think? Sammie: It does to some extent. You've got someone outside of the individual community that really doesn't understand what's important, making decisions or providing budgets to the local leadership of that regional or money center bank. And they cannot react as quickly to the needs of the community. Whereas your community banks are able to really provide a nimble outlook. And by that I mean that if there's something happening that needs to be taken care of. The decision can be made within 5 minutes and let's get the problem squared away, from supporting one of the individual not-for-profits that are providing services to our community to the hospitals, the school system. It's having that ability to make a decision on the ground floor. Kelly: That's a segue into maybe the bigger picture here. That dynamic doesn't just relate to non-profit involvement, but it gets at the for-profit activities that a bank is involved in. When you're not part of that community, you can't respond as quickly, whether it be granting a commercial loan or that sort of thing. Talk about that a little bit. How is that impacted? Sammie: Every business is nothing more than a story with substance behind it. Having people and having the executive leadership having the opportunity to not only listen and hear the story, but live it. You get to see what they do each and every day and you're able to make decisions and make judgments in extending credit; what type of depository services they need; and there's nothing about a story that fits in a box. Every one of them is different. Every individual character, if you want to say, within the story is different. Having that ability to take the time, sit down, understand what the story is and where it's going, gives us an opportunity to make very quick and rational decisions that helps each individual business that then helps the community. Kelly: You mentioned story. What's your story? What's Prime Meridian's story? Sammie: Well, Prime Meridian Bank is a newer bank, one of the last in the state of Florida to get chartered. We opened our doors February 4th, 2008. We initially capitalized with about $12.9 million dollars. We have now since grown in excess of $275 million, over the last 8 years. We decided to start the bank, myself and Chris Jensen, and we thought we could provide service to our clientele, and decisions that would help them move more prudently and faster. Kelly: You saw a need specifically in the Tallahassee market? Sammie: We did. We thought that we could provide service and compete with everybody in town. We didn't have a group of people come together and say, "Let's start a bank." We put our story together and put our model together, and went to individual business leaders within town, here in Tallahassee and said, "We're going to start a bank we'd like you to be a part of," and that was the genesis of Prime Meridian Bank. Kelly: Was there a lot of consolidation and acquisitions that had gone on prior to that, and so that kind of created this market opportunity for you guys? Sammie: No. You had several community banks here in town already, most of your southeastern regional banks and your money center bank. We just thought there was an opportunity for us to come in and provide a little different level of service that would make us a profitable entity and serve Tallahassee very well. Kelly: Let's talk about the name Prime Meridian. You do know that you're not on the Prime Meridian? You do know that you're 84 degrees west, right? Sammie: I do, but the Prime Meridian for all metes and bounds in the state of Florida is here in Tallahassee. Kelly: Oh, got it. Sammie: If you look at the Prime Meridian, what is it? It's a starting point of the metes and bounds here for the state of Florida, and starting point of time, or the starting point of a new financial institution. The Meridian line is an unwavering line going over the Earth. We're unwavering in our outlook and care of our shareholder's money, but more importantly, our clients. Kelly: The Brits claimed Greenwich was the Prime Meridian. They don't own that, so you'd redefine Tallahassee to be the Prime Meridian. Sammie: At least for a new financial institution. Kelly: Very good. Continue with the evolution of the bank and the challenges you've faced in the past, as you went from de novo Bank? You didn't acquire another bank, right? Sammie: Right. Several things that we're proud of through the evolution of our company. Number one, which goes back to the quality of our team. When we started our bank, the average startup cost was about $800,000. The day that we opened the doors and took the write-off to capital for the expenses, we wrote off $395,000. That goes to the knowledge and expertise of our team of not having to hire a lot of consultants, and understanding each and every thing that we did. Going on to 2012, four years after we opened, we looked around with the team that we had, and realized that we could do our own data items processing. Instead of having a service bureau that was processing our checks, we decided we would do it ourselves. That added an immediate $8,500 a month to the bottom line. Kelly: Wow. Sammie: That same year, we also became cumulatively profitable. That was pretty exciting for us. And then in December 11th of 2013, we became an effective SEC registered company and then started listing our stock in 2015 on the OTCQX. So those are some of the things that we have done and we're very, very proud of. Dealing with the SEC, we went through a full review, when we filed our S1, our initial going public document. Our comment letter back from the SEC was simply 2 1/2 pages, which goes to say just how good our team is, and how detailed we are in each and every thing that we do. Kelly: Yeah. I know access to capital has been good once you go public, but it's quite a task to a) go public, and b) maintain that. The requirements are immense as you know. Was it worth it, do you think? Sammie: Absolutely. We went public for 3 reasons. Number one is we could raise our capital the way that we wanted to. We didn't have to worry about an accredited offering or anything of that nature. Number two is we're looking to grow the company and grow outside of the Tallahassee MSA, and if we do that we want to have a currency that we can use. In order to have your stock act as a currency, you've got to have a market for it, and the only way to do that was to be an SEC registered trading company. Then number three, when we decided to do it, our bank is still very clean. We do not have many non-performings or any crazy things on the books. It would never be easier to go through and do it. And we look at it like these days, with capital, you can't say, "Okay, we're going to go buy someone or do something. Now let's go get approval and say, 'Okay, if you give us approval we'll get the capital.'" You've got to have capital already on hand. There's no more just in time capital. And the same way we look at it is there's no just in time human capital. Kelly: Let's talk about human capital for a minute. How challenging is it for you to compete for new talent and retain existing talent with the compensation structure that community banks have to deal with? Sammie: Well, Kelly, that's been one of our strong points. When we started the bank in 2008, we were the new kids on the block. Nobody knew us. All we had was a story. It was nothing but air. So going out and getting the top absolute talent was difficult. People had their banks, things were going well. So we decided that we would start building our own bankers. And being here in Tallahassee and having Florida State and FAMU and TCC here, gave us the opportunity to go get a lot of talented younger folks to bring in, that had the capacity, train them, educate them. And one thing that we've done is we've been very transparent with our team. Up until we went public, we went through our financials with our entire team once a month. Now that we're a publicly traded company, we do it once a quarter. But giving them the exposure, I cannot give them experience, but giving them the exposure to what we're doing, why we're doing it, and how we're doing it, is as important as finding experienced people. And our entire culture is surrounded by a one-word question and that's “why”. Any teller, relationship manager, operations person, whoever, can ask me or anybody in the bank why are we doing something. And that causes two things. Number one, the hardest thing to get people to do is think. If they're asking you questions, then they're thinking. And if you answer their questions: Why did we go public? Why did we raise capital? Why are we looking to acquire banks? What does that mean to the bottom line? Now, all of the sudden you've created an inclusive ecosystem, as you say, that people can buy-in. The biggest thing people want is to be a part of something, and what we've afforded a lot of folks to do is come in and be a part of building something from the foundation up. And constantly giving them that transparency of what we're doing and why we're doing it, is very, very inclusive. And we listen. I can't tell a teller how to make a teller line more efficient. So if I can't listen to what they're doing like I ask them to listen to me and do what I say. If we don't have a partnership there, we're not going to get any better. That's the number one. Number two, if someone asks me a question. Why are we doing this? and I can't answer it, then I might need to rethink what I'm doing. Does that make sense? Kelly: It certainly does. Have you used non-qualified benefit plans as part of that overall compensation structure? This is not a pitch for that. I was just curious if you'd ever talked about that. Sammie: Yes. We're in the process of looking at our entire compensation structure now, and figuring out how to better enhance it to a) retain, b) attract, and c) incentivize. Kelly: So say another side of say the balance sheet, since we're talking about that, municipal bonds. Anything that you've seen change here since the 2008 Dodd-Frank and all this other stuff of municipal bond rating agencies? Have you guys had to modify any of your practices on that? Sammie: We're using a third party right now to monitor our municipal portfolio. So in the old days of just buying bonds and putting them on the books, we actually have a quarterly review of all of our municipalities. Kelly: So you've had to upgrade that since the regulatory changes? Sammie: We have. And I don't think it's all that bad from the standpoint that you look at a lot of municipalities out there that are having weakness due to the down-turn, and the one thing that we have made the decision from day one, is we take risk, and there's risk in everything you do, but we take the real risk in our loan portfolio. We do not want any risk in our investment portfolio. We're looking at it as simply a hedge against interest rates, and also as just a liquidity source. Kelly: Well then you better load up with bank-owned life insurance. You've got about 50% of your financial assets in muni’s and I like the lower balance sheet risk that BOLI offers. That’s another discuss with you and Glenn. What's the future look like for community banking in general, threats that you see, opportunities? For example, 80% of millennials haven't even walked into a bank before. Sammie: Let's stop right there for a second and talk about the millennials for a minute. Number one, I talked about how we hire and what we do. The average age of our bank is 38. The average age of our management team is 41. As far as dealing with millennials and all, one thing most people have forgotten is most millennials have yet to start a company. A lot of them, due to the recession, still live with their parents. So therefore, they really haven't needed to walk into a bank. Now a lot of the millennials that we have found, and we talk with, and we do this a lot. They want to be a part of something. And they're much more community driven and doing something for the greater good. Once you are able to show them from a teammate standpoint what we're doing, they buy in. Once they actually need something other than just a regular checking account, i.e. buy their first house; buy a business or trying to finance the start of a business, they need to sit down and talk with someone who understands the market. And we have found, we've been very successful with millennials. Now we're not out there with everything online, rocket mortgage and things of that nature. We're finding a lot of success dealing with the millennials. What that comes back to is we generally don't get them until they need something. And every individual, every household is nothing different than a story too. Where's your income coming from? Is it going to be sustainable? Can you afford whatever asset you're trying to purchase? That has been very, very beneficial to us. As far as whether or not banks are going to be here, I've talked with bankers that go back to the '60s that said the community bank's not going to be around much longer. Well, as long as you have people, there's a certain segment of the population that wants to talk with people, when it comes to their financial situation. Coming up from a small town in south Georgia, and growing up the 3 most important people in the town was your doctor, your preacher, and your banker; your health care, your faith care, and your financial care. And you generally didn't do that via an email. I truly believe that there will always be a place for the community bank. Now with the regulations and thought process out there, there's going to be fewer and fewer community banks due to the fact that what we're required to do. We're operating in most cases from an asset-liability standpoint, overall balance sheet management standpoint, like a larger bank. However, we don't have the economies of scale to do it. So we have to be more innovative and more nimble. And that goes right down to talking with your regulators on a consistent basis to understanding what the rules are. If you're going to form a hospital, or if you're going to start a power company, there's regulations you have to abide by. As a community banker, you had better understand the rules and abide by them or find something else to do. That's just the approach that we've taken. And it creates a lot less heartache and stress, when you come at it from that standpoint, versus saying, "The regulators are going to kill me." Regardless what they're going to do, they're going to do it. So you better find out or figure a way to cope with it. Kelly: Great. What's the biggest threat, other than let's say cyber-security risk, which probably keeps you up at night…other than that, what's the biggest risk or fear that you have, say for the next 10 years? Sammie: As we expand, finding the human capital, finding the talent, the teammates. Kelly: Really? Sammie: The human capital. Kelly: So in Tallahassee or in some of your outlying branches? You have access to plenty of talent there, right? Sammie: There is a good supply, and it's just finding the right people that believe in what we believe in. Our culture is the most important aspect of what we do each and every day, and I go back to the question “why”. If you're questioning why we're doing something, some people look at that as somewhat of a negative. We look at it as a positive, because if you cannot explain what's going on, and you cannot understand it, then the “how” really doesn't matter. Kelly: What's the biggest opportunity that you see? What gets you up every morning after you've had a sleepless night worrying about cyber-security risks? What gets you going? Sammie: The opportunity to grow, to build our franchise here within Tallahassee; the opportunities outside of Tallahassee. Within our investor presentation, we show that we don't want to go any further north than Macon, south of Ocala, east of the Atlantic and west of the eastern border of the state of Mississippi. That is south Alabama, south Georgia, and north Florida. The opportunities to be there are endless. And that is something to get excited about and get out of bed every day, and figuring out a new challenge to go build upon. Kelly: That's great. All right. In closing, I always like to ask either your favorite quote and/or the stupidest thing you've done in your business career. Sammie: I will give you my favorite quote, and it's on our boardroom wall, and it is by a retired General, Eric Shinseki, who has been re-retired. The quote is, "If you do not like change, you are going to like irrelevance even less." Shinseki is the most recent former head of the VA. He's pretty irrelevant right now. Kelly: I would say so. Alright. Very good. Anything else you want to add Sammie, or should we sign it off? Sammie: You tell me. Thank you. Kelly: I think we're good. Thank you very much for your time. It was a pleasure talking to you. I wish you well, Sammie. Stay safe! And that’s it for my interview with Sammie Dixon from Prime Meridian Bank in Tallahassee, Florida. Thank you.

Kelly interviews Adam Mustafa, Invictus Consulting Group who talks about CECL and some of the challenges banks have in accounting for future credit loss.   elly Coughlin is CEO of BankBosun, a management consulting firm helping bank C-Level Officers navigate risk and discover reward. He is the host of the syndicated audio podcast, BankBosun.com. Kelly brings over 25 years of experience with companies like PWC, Lloyds Bank, and Merrill Lynch. On the podcast Kelly interviews key executives in the banking ecosystem to provide bank C-Suite officers, risk management, technology, and investment ideas and solutions to help them navigate risks and discover rewards. And now your host, Kelly Coughlin. Kelly: Hi, this is Kelly Coughlin with the BankBosun. I’m going to do an interview today with Adam Mustafa, who’s one of the founders of a company called Invictus Group. There’s been so much discussion in the last couple months on this new CECL regulation that’s coming down the pike here this year some time that deals with how banks are supposed to be valuing and estimating their credit loss. I read a report that Invictus put together, a 2016 regulatory outlook. I actually did three blog posts on it, so you can go to the blog section and read those, as well, and then I’ve appended the Invictus report, as well. With that in mind, I’ll get Adam on the line. Adam, we’re going to talk about some things that are relevant to the bank industry. Why don’t you give us some background on yourself, on Invictus. I see a Mustafa name at the top of the letterhead. I assume that’s a family member. Adam: Yes, my father and I co-founded the business, and like I tell everybody I’m the smarter, better looking version of him. I do all the work, and he gets to take all the credit. In all seriousness, we started the firm back in 2008 right after the financial crisis began. Today, our bread and butter is providing community banks with strategic advisory services that focus very heavily on using analytics to get an edge in terms of acquiring other banks, being able to analyze those banks and know those banks better than they know themselves, and using analytics also to customize their own capital requirements with their regulators in the face of increasing regulation and the implementation of Basel III. Kelly: You were with Deloitte Touche for a while. It looked like a number of your other guys came from the banking or investment banking circles. What’s kind of been the genesis of the partners? You and your dad, where did you guys come from? Adam: I’ve been very much an entrepreneur. I consider myself an entrepreneur first and foremost. I did work at Deloitte, and I was in their business evaluations group. I worked on Wall Street as a junior grunt earlier in my career. I’ve seen commercial banking and investment banking from a variety of different angles. My father’s background is far more impressive than mine. In many ways, a lot of the techniques we use today, my father learned from the great Walter Wriston at Citigroup. My father worked at Citibank in the late ’70s through the mid-’80s, where he was responsible for all mergers and acquisitions, including Citibank’s acquisitions of other financial institutions. He is a disciple of Walter Wriston. Again, a lot of the techniques we use today were originated by Wriston, and we’ve just updated it for today’s times. That’s our background. We like to say we put the A back in ALCO. What we do is, on the one hand, innovative, because as soon as the 2008 crises occurred, the conventional techniques for analyzing banks all broke down. We’ve developed new analytics, but at the same time, they go back to the fundamentals of banking. You could trace their origins back to the ’60s and the ’70s when Walter Wriston was running Citibank. Kelly: So now we get at the name Invictus and Invictus Group. Can I assume that it comes from the William Ernest Henley poem, “I am the master of my fate. I am the captain of my soul,” that type of Invictus, or is it another genesis? Adam: Yes, sir. You hit the nail on the head. In many ways it was very much a metaphor for the times we were in, circa 2008, 2009, when we were in the depths of the financial crisis. Nobody knew exactly what was going to happen, but everybody knew that the industry was never going to be the same. Kelly: Yeah, one of my favorite stanzas from that poem, it describes 2008 pretty well. It says, “In the fell clutch of circumstance, I have not winced nor cried aloud. Under the bludgeonings of chance, my head is bloody but unbowed.” It describes how many of us went through a very tough period. You also had some experience with the famous Jim Cramer. What was that like? Adam: I was with him long enough to have a cup of coffee. I don’t even think he would remember my name, although he called me Ace for some odd reason. It was a great experience because he is obviously very well-known and very well respected. He’s got a method to his madness, so just being able to observe him, even though he didn’t know my name, to watch him go about his day, watch him go about his process, I learned a heck of a lot from him. I’d actually tell you what I learned was that I don’t want to be a stock picker because that job is not only very difficult but is very short-term oriented. It is very focused on what companies are going to report quarterly earnings better than what the analysts thought. It was very focused on what tomorrow’s economic indicators were. It was too short-term oriented for me. And so if nothing else, I learned that I wouldn’t make much of a stock picker. Kelly: Let’s get right into it. I’ve known about you guys for a number of years, and I have great respect for the work that you do, but what got my attention I’d say most recently was this 2016 Regulatory Outlook. As I was pouring through that, it’s about a fifteen or twenty page report, most of which most CEOs and CFOs won’t read because it’s too long, I went through it and parsed it out into three components. One was a regulatory compliance cyber security thing. Part two was balance sheet risk management, and then part three, which was more board-level issues. Just briefly I want to skip to part two that got my attention. “Invictus research found seven hundred and fifty banks with commercial real estate concentrations above 250%. Regulatory guidance suggests banks have unhealthy concentrations.” That seems a lot. Adam: Yeah, it’s very hypocritical when you think about it, because on the one hand, there is these concentration ratios that are essentially monitoring community banks, in terms of their exposure to commercial real estate, but at the end of the day, that’s what community banks are. They are commercial real estate lenders. That’s what nine out of ten of them do. In many cases, of course they’re going to have concentration ratios in that range. The regulators tend to use 300% as a threshold, and if a bank goes over 300%, that’s when they will examine them a lot more thoroughly, but that’s what community banks do. Community banks, they’re like any other for-profit business. They’re in business to make money, and they have to make loans to make money. If you try to limit the number of loans they can make, then they won’t be able to make enough money, especially in this environment. And then on the other hand, if these ratios start to push them towards other forms of lending, such as C&I, then all of a sudden they don’t have expertise in C&I. It can be very dangerous making loans in areas where you don’t have an expertise in, and then the regulators will come after banks for venturing into lines of business where they may not have what they need from a skill set perspective. If they make too much of the loans that is their bread and butter, then they’re going to come under scrutiny, but if they try to diversify, they’ll come under scrutiny for getting into lines of business that they’re not familiar with. Community banks are in a very tough position. That being said, I understand where the regulators are coming from. When you look at the carnage of the 2008 financial crisis, and you study banks that failed and got into heavy trouble, there was heavy concentration. The key is, let’s evaluate the spirit of what’s happening. The spirit of what’s happening is that regulators don’t want banks to fail, but at the same time, banks got to stick to their bread and butter. At the end of the day and we work with a lot of banks who are over that 300% threshold. At the end of the day, the regulators will be comfortable, and a community bank could have a concentration level at 500% to capital, but they have to demonstrate to the regulators that they have the toolkit from the perspective of risk management, capital management, and the sophistication to manage that type of risk. Kelly: On this CECL business, what is the basic difference between from what banks are doing now in doing some sort of loan loss reserve? There seems to be this discussion on the life of the loan, and replacing and incurred loss approach with a lifetime expected loss estimate. It seems like, on origination, FASB and the regulators are going to say, “Okay, when you originate the loan, we want you to estimate how much you’re going to lose on this loan on origination.” When they do the loan, they’re not really expecting that they’re going to be losing on the life of the loan. Every credit they grant is estimated to be a good credit, so what is the difference here on the approach that they’re doing now, which is a basic allowance system possibly based on past results, versus this lifetime expected loss estimate? Adam: The primary difference is that CECL is designed to be forward looking, whereas the current process for recording a loan loss reserve is backward looking. That’s the primary difference. Kelly: Backward looking on their entire portfolio, not with that particular credit, but their overall portfolio, correct? Adam: Yes. Let’s examine quickly how banks today calculate their loan loss reserve. It’s actually very simple, but you could then see how broken it is. By the way, I’m not advocating here for CECL, but the one thing I can tell you right now is the current way of calculating ALLL (Allowance for Loan and Lease Losses) is a joke. Let’s start with what banks do as first step. They take all of their high quality loans, they call them pass-rated loans, or loans that are currently doing fine, they put them into pools, and they will calculate how much they expect to lose off that pool, but that calculation is based off their historical loss experience. It’s backward looking from that perspective. Then with the loans that are in trouble, they have to actually analyze those loans individually, and they will look at the collateral position of the loan. They’ll look at the borrower’s financials, and they will estimate using that data, which is also backward looking, how much reserve they need to have against those individual loans. Then you’ve got this third bucket. What CFOs will refer to is as is “qualitative factors”. Qualitative factors is the plug right now, the band aid that’s trying to bridge this gap of the ALLL being backward looking, and the idea that their own loss reserve should be forward looking. Essentially, these qualitative factors is like throwing darts at a board. The CFO or the chief credit officer will look at economic conditions locally and then add plus or minus 1, or 10, or 15% to these scorecards, and then they’ll try to use these score cards to pad their ALLL. The irony is that this bucket, these qualitative factors, for most banks is actually representing 90 or 95% of their loan loss reserve. 90 or 95% of bank’s loan loss reserve today right now is based off throwing darts at a board. Frankly, that is not effective. The irony is, is that although studies have shown that CECL would hurt banks and would require banks to add to the reserve, we actually don’t see that. For strong, healthy banks, this bucket of qualitative factors is such a large component of their ALLL. We actually think CECL would help a lot of banks because it would demonstrate with more science and far less art how actually less risky those loans are, depending on where and when they were originated. Kelly: Those qualitative factors that you mentioned, isn’t there a bit of an issue as to how that data is captured. Some of it is captured maybe in memory, some of it’s captured in a Word document, maybe it’s in Excel format. It’s not like there’s a standard input of this type of data, number one, and then number two, isn’t it true that much of that data is kind of subjective? Adam: That’s exactly my point. It’s like throwing darts at a board. It’s highly subjective. It’s 99% art, 1% science at the most, and yet these qualitative factors, the number coming out of that bucket, is representing 90 to 95% of a bank’s loan loss reserve. Kelly: Okay, but they’re still under the duty to try to compile that data, correct? That’ve got to collect it and compile, and then make some decisions based on that, right? Adam: There’s not a lot of data, that’s the problem, for them to collect. Many of them are doing their best to try to collect local or national economic data and try to interpret that, but it is literally like throwing darts at a board. Therein lies the problem. This is why the FASB wants to replace how banks are calculating their loan loss reserves now and replace it with CECL. If you went back to 2008, and you studied what happened in the crisis, a lot of banks didn’t have enough in the reserve. When we’ve done this, if you study failed banks and you looked at their loan loss provisioning, you would see zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, and then a huge spike in one quarter, the quarter where the regulators showed up, and all of a sudden, the banks is under-capitalized and then two quarters later they fail. There was too much volatility. The ALLL itself is highly subjective, easy to manipulate, especially for larger, publicly traded banks. The current system for ALLL completely broke down in the financial crisis, which is why FASB proposed CECL. Kelly: Wouldn’t it be true, though, that the qualitative factors that you mentioned that led to the ALLL analysis or result, those qualitative factors will help guide the CECL analysis, correct? Adam: CECL’s going to replace that, because the regulators know, FASB knows that these qualitative factors are a joke. The qualitative factors right now is a band aid. FASB wants to improve the methodology for the reserve in instead of relying on these qualitative factors. They want to have a lot more science to the process. They want it to be far more forward looking. That’s why they want to implement CECL. Kelly: I was under the impression, though, that some of those qualitative factors were part of the calculus of CECL, though. Adam: The spirit of it, yes. The spirit of the qualitative factors right now in the ALLL is to basically say, “Yeah, we know when we calculate our loan loss reserve off our pooled loans and our individually impaired loans that that number’s not big enough because economic conditions could change, and economic conditions right now are fragile, albeit, we’re in this recovery driven by artificially low interest rates. We know enough to know the environment is fragile. We need to find a way to capture that in the loan loss reserve, so let’s come up with these qualitative factors to fulfill that. It’s not a great approach. Kelly: The basic formula is something like probability of default, times exposure default, times loss of the given default, and that equals CECL. On that probability of default, therein lies the subjective element to that, correct? Adam: Any forward looking model is going to be dependent on assumptions, and assumptions will vary in terms of how much art and science is contributing to them. The methodology you just described, it is one methodology that is being recommended for CECL compliance. It’s probably going to be the most used methodology. The key assumptions such as probability default and loss given default themselves will require some subjectivity or art to it, but there’s a lot more science that can be used in that process. That’s how we work with our clients. Kelly: All right, so let’s move to the bigger picture here. Give us your take on this whole CECL thing. Is it a crisis? Is it something that CFO’s and CEOs and boards should put at the absolute top of the front burner? What’s your take on it? Adam: I think CECL doesn’t need to be so complicated. I think there are vendors who stand to benefit from CECL, who are either subconsciously or consciously creating the perception that CECL’s going to be far more complicated than it really need to be. Kelly: Both of us worked at Big 6 accounting firms in our early careers. I can picture, I was at PWC, and you were at Deloitte Touche? I mean these guys must be licking their chops at the size of some of these engagements, don’t you think, to get in there and help these banks out? Adam: Yeah, absolutely. Take your typical community bank where it’s hard enough to make money in this environment. Our perspective on it A) this could increase my loan loss reserve, which is going to decrease my earnings and my capital, and B), the cost of putting the system in place for even doing that calculation’s going to cost me money now. From a community bank’s perspective, I completely understand the concern. That being said, let’s set the record straight. CECL hasn’t yet been passed. They’re talking about early half of this year where they’re going to make a final decision on it, although, they hinted at the end of last year it’s likely going to happen. They also said there’s going to be a five year runway for compliance. So I don’t think community banks need to overreact to CECL. I think they need to develop a plan for CECL readiness, but I don’t think they need to rush into anything. I don’t think they need to panic about it. At the end of the day, CECL does not change the actual risk of a loan. If I make a loan to you today, the risk of that loan hasn’t gone up because of CECL. Maybe how I account for that risk has changed, but it doesn’t change the spirit of making loans. That all being said, here’s some things that community banks should be aware of. You know we talked about the life of the loan, but the other thing that community banks need to be aware of is the vintage of the loan matters. If you have a properly built CECL model, what you will find is that the risk profile of loans made during the early part of a credit cycle will actually be very low, but if you’re making a lot of loans in the late part of a credit cycle, the risk could be very high. If you’ve got the system in place, you’ll be able to analyze that and not just have the accounting treatment reflect it, but more importantly, it will highlight your strategic decision-making, and it will help provide community banks with a sense of the risk/reward trade-off of making new loans in different environments. What we found is, the time to make new loans is in the early part of a credit cycle and not the second half of a credit cycle, and CECL will just bring that point to the surface, but it doesn’t change the actual risk profile of the loan itself. Kelly: All right, let’s wrap it up. Do you have three to five takeaways you want to leave the bankers with? Adam: I’m just going to leave you with one takeaway. It’s a quote that summarizes everything that we’re seeing in this environment, CECL being one aspect of it, which is, “The worst loans are made in the best of times.” The opposite of that is actually also true. A CECL model will quantify that point, but with or without CECL, that point holds true, and community banks, from a strategic planning perspective, really need to think hard about that. Kelly: That’s a good one. We want to thank you for listening to the syndicated audio program, BankBosun.com The audio content is produced by Kelly Coughlin, Chief Executive Officer of BankBosun, LLC; and syndicated by Seth Greene, Market Domination LLC, with the help of Kevin Boyle. Video content is produced by The Guildmaster Studio, Keenan Bobson Boyle. The voice introduction is me, Karim Kronfli. The program is hosted by Kelly Coughlin. If you like this program, please tell us. If you don’t, please tell us how we can improve it. Now, some disclaimers. Kelly is licensed with the Minnesota State Board of Accountancy as a Certified Public Accountant. Kelly provides bank owned life insurance portfolio and nonqualified benefit services to banks across the United States. 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