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Al and Kelly talk about Ratopia Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:02:24: What Have We Been Up To 00:17:46: Game News 00:25:17: News Games 00:36:08: Ratopia 01:02:56: Outro Links Tales of Seikyu Early Access Sugardew Island Sprinklers Update Outlanders “The Culinry Diaries” DLC Turnip Boy Steals The Mall Cubified Turnip Boy Plush Everdream Valley VR Contact Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:31) Al: Hello, farmers, and welcome to another episode of the harvest season. (0:00:34) Al: My name is Al. (0:00:36) Kelly: And my name is Kelly. (0:00:38) Al: And we are here today to talk about Cottage Core Games. (0:00:42) Al: Woo! (0:00:42) Kelly: Woo! (0:00:45) Al: Uh, welcome back, Kelly. (0:00:47) Al: Always good to have you. (0:00:48) Kelly: It’s always fun to be back. (0:00:50) Kelly: I feel like we talked so recently and yet so long ago. (0:00:55) Kelly: It really wasn’t that long ago. (0:00:56) Al: Let’s have a look. (0:00:57) Al: Your last episode was “Grimoire Groves”, and that was in March. (0:01:01) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:01:02) Al: For two months. (0:01:04) Al: Hmm, I have not played that game since that episode. (0:01:07) Kelly: I completed everything. (0:01:09) Al: Hmm. (0:01:10) Kelly: Everything, everything. (0:01:12) Al: Impressive. (0:01:12) Kelly: And then I put the game down and never picked it back up again. (0:01:14) Al: Hmm, fair. (0:01:16) Al: That’s how I play most games, to be fair. (0:01:16) Kelly: It was fun. (0:01:19) Kelly: Me too. (0:01:19) Kelly: But usually I don’t go full completionist mode. (0:01:23) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:01:24) Kelly: I pick things that I want to complete (0:01:26) Kelly: or give myself goals. (0:01:27) Kelly: Otherwise, I kind of lose motivation sometimes. (0:01:30) Al: Fair enough (0:01:32) Al: And then you were on the fields of then you were on the fields of mystery out before that. Have you played the update? (0:01:32) Kelly: But I was determined. (0:01:37) Kelly: No. (0:01:38) Kelly: I really enjoyed the portion that I played, (0:01:42) Kelly: but I decided that was enough and I’m just (0:01:44) Kelly: going to wait for the full game. (0:01:46) Al: I have done the same also. I was really tempted to jump in in the last update, but I’m like, (0:01:52) Kelly: Mm-hmm yep, that’s why I am I ended up picking up Sunhaven instead (0:01:52) Al: “No, let’s not do it. Let’s not do it. Don’t ruin it for yourself. Wait for the full game.” (0:02:00) Al: Yes. Well, let’s get into that then. So, just before we get into that, (0:02:02) Kelly: So I was like, you know what that’s a completed game (0:02:08) Al: we’re going to talk about Ratopia, this episode. Ratopia, this episode, because it has just come (0:02:14) Al: out in 1.0. (0:02:16) Al: Kelly has previously played it, so I thought we would talk about that. (0:02:21) Al: Before that, obviously, we’ll have our regular news. (0:02:25) Al: But first of all, Kelly, what have you been up to? (0:02:28) Kelly: “Playing Sunhaven.” (0:02:29) Al: I have questions. (0:02:30) Kelly: Woo! (0:02:31) Kelly: I also got 15 yards of dirt delivered to my driveway (0:02:34) Kelly: so I could fix my backyard. (0:02:36) Kelly: So that’s– (0:02:39) Al: Why is it measured in distance? (0:02:44) Kelly: I don’t have that answer. (0:02:46) Al: So, presumably, it’s like a set thickness, right? (0:02:47) Kelly: Do you know how I had to figure out what 15 yards of dirt was, (0:02:50) Kelly: Al? (0:02:50) Kelly: I had to go on YouTube and watch a video of a dump truck (0:02:53) Kelly: delivering 15 yards of dirt to someone’s driveway. (0:02:59) Kelly: I guess? (0:03:01) Kelly: Because they also do like– (0:03:01) Al: You’re the one that’s had it delivered! (0:03:03) Kelly: yeah, Al, this was through Facebook Market. (0:03:06) Kelly: This is just, I don’t know, the standard measurement (0:03:08) Kelly: that they use, though, because it’s cubic yards and cubic feet (0:03:11) Kelly: are used for soil. (0:03:12) Al: Oh, so it’s cubic yards, not yards. (0:03:17) Kelly: I don’t know, because they only said yards. (0:03:19) Al: Because that’s a bit– because cubic yards is a vol– (0:03:23) Al: Yeah, so it sounds like they’re just automatically (0:03:24) Kelly: It’s probably cubic yards, and I just never considered it. (0:03:25) Al: shortening it then, because cubic yards is a volume. (0:03:28) Al: That’s how you measure something like soil. (0:03:28) Kelly: Yes. (0:03:29) Kelly: Yes, that’s how I do my soil. (0:03:31) Kelly: I do soil calculations in cubic yards. (0:03:34) Kelly: I just didn’t put two and two together because it just (0:03:37) Kelly: straight up said yards. (0:03:38) Al: Yeah, that’s just laziness, I think, on behalf of people selling. (0:03:42) Kelly: Yeah. (0:03:43) Kelly: But no, I literally watched YouTube videos on dirt delivery (0:03:46) Kelly: to figure out how much dirt this would be. (0:03:48) Al: Although, I also have a question about that, because this is a thing that Americans do (0:03:55) Al: a lot, is you measure things by volume, when that can be very inaccurate for certain things. (0:03:58) Kelly: Yes. Yeah. Yes. (0:04:02) Al: It’s all very well and good measuring liquids by volume, because they stay the same. You’re (0:04:08) Kelly: Yeah. (0:04:08) Al: not going to add extra air in between grains of water. Yeah. Yeah. (0:04:10) Kelly: No, listen, I do a lot of baking. (0:04:14) Kelly: All of my baking is done by weight. (0:04:18) Kelly: I convert recipes all the time. (0:04:18) Al: Yeah. (0:04:22) Kelly: I’m pretty sure that they do it this way so that they can, like… (0:04:24) Kelly: Okay, this is free dirt, so it’s like… (0:04:26) Al: Okay, yeah. (0:04:28) Kelly: trash as it is. (0:04:30) Kelly: But it’s like, clearly they want to do it by volume and not weight (0:04:32) Kelly: so that they can give me things like a two foot long concrete rock (0:04:36) Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. (0:04:36) Kelly: inside of my dirt pile. (0:04:40) Kelly: You know, like, that’s… (0:04:42) Kelly: I don’t know about the other things, (0:04:44) Kelly: because I’m assuming when people buy nice soil, (0:04:46) Kelly: they’re not getting giant rocks in their nice soil. (0:04:49) Al: Yeah, I. (0:04:50) Kelly: But I think… I think it’s… it’s a… (0:04:54) Kelly: I think that’s part of it. I don’t know. (0:04:56) Al: You weren’t buying high quality topside, well, that’s for sure. (0:04:58) Kelly: You know, it’s free dirt. (0:05:00) Al: But yeah, the baking one is funny, right? (0:05:02) Al: Because I understand the want to do it in volume, right? (0:05:05) Al: Like there’s a lot of cooking that I do (0:05:07) Al: where I do it by volume because it’s quicker, right? (0:05:08) Kelly: Yes, yeah. (0:05:09) Al: Like I quite often I quite often will make like (0:05:13) Al: I do like oat breakfast cookies quite often and I’ll just I’ll just use one (0:05:19) Al: of my measuring spoons and I’ll just like throw half a cup into a bowl, right? (0:05:24) Kelly: - Yeah. (0:05:24) Al: Because it’s quick and it’s dirty and it (0:05:26) Al: doesn’t really matter because if it’s slightly off, it’s fine. (0:05:27) Kelly: You’re getting cookies no matter what. (0:05:29) Al: Exactly, right? (0:05:30) Kelly: - Yeah, exactly. (0:05:31) Al: It does the job. (0:05:31) Al: But like when you’re if I’m if I’m baking a cake, like, you know, I’m I’m weighing (0:05:36) Al: out that flour, right, I cannot but you’ll see recipes online all the time. (0:05:36) Kelly: - Yep, yeah, oh yeah. (0:05:40) Al: And it’s like a cup of flour. (0:05:42) Al: And I’m like, first of all, first of all, there is no single standard cup. (0:05:46) Al: Did you know our cups are different than your cups? (0:05:48) Kelly: Yes. That’s what pisses me off. That’s what pisses me off when like a lot of good baking (0:05:49) Al: Fun, isn’t that super fun to learn about after I’ve spent following American (0:05:54) Al: recipes for years? (0:05:59) Kelly: recipes will include both the the grams or whatever ounces and then also yeah the ones (0:06:02) Al: Yes. You click the little button and it will change them. Yes, it’s nice. I like that. (0:06:09) Kelly: that don’t are so questionable because it’s like well did you pack the flour when you put in the (0:06:14) Al: Yeah, exactly. (0:06:15) Kelly: the cup but do you (0:06:18) Kelly: do our cups match yeah it’s very frustrating it’s very I do a lot of (0:06:20) Al: How irritated is your flower? (0:06:26) Kelly: math when I do baking so it’s very interesting I guess (0:06:28) Al: And this is why I don’t do much baking, because I like cooking where I can just throw things in (0:06:35) Al: and it’ll taste good. And if it doesn’t taste good, I add in something else and it tastes good now. (0:06:41) Al: But baking, if you muck up the measurements, you’re getting a pile of mush. (0:06:42) Kelly: That’s, yeah, I will say, I am definitely doing like a dirty sourdough at the moment for the starter because I used to be very anal and I would measure everything out. (0:06:55) Kelly: And after like, I guess four or five years of doing sourdough starters, I just like, I understand what the consistency needs to be. (0:07:04) Al: Yeah, yeah, that’s very different. (0:07:06) Al: If you’re doing the same thing all the time, you know what it needs to be, (0:07:08) Kelly: Yeah, but there’s definitely some. (0:07:10) Al: and you just get used to that. (0:07:12) Kelly: There are some things that I kind of like mess around with in baking where I think other people might not. (0:07:16) Kelly: And it’s like in the end, it still tastes great. (0:07:20) Kelly: And it’s my little science experiment, you know? (0:07:22) Al: Yeah, I know. For sure. (0:07:24) Kelly: But no, I love cooking and baking for the two different reasons. (0:07:28) Kelly: Like one is my little science chemistry set. (0:07:32) Kelly: And the other one is like throw whatever the hell you want into a pan and see what happens. (0:07:34) Al: Yeah, I like the idea of baking and I sit with a pack of flour in my cupboard and I (0:07:42) Al: watch as it goes out of date, because it’s just like, it’s a whole other mindset you (0:07:49) Al: have to be in before you can actually realistically do that. And that, yeah. I’ve had a recipe (0:07:50) Kelly: - Yes. (0:07:55) Kelly: - Yeah, it’s a different commitment. (0:07:57) Al: for like a specific kind of flatbread for months and I’ve not done it yet. And that’s (0:08:04) Al: all for baking. That’s just bread. (0:08:06) Kelly: Yeah, yeah. (0:08:07) Kelly: No, I’ve been meaning to make a brioche bread for months, (0:08:12) Kelly: and I just keep putting it off because I’m like, (0:08:14) Kelly: I don’t want to deal with it. (0:08:14) Al: There’s so much brain space. (0:08:16) Al: Anyway, Sunhaven. (0:08:17) Kelly: Yes, Sun Even has been a lot of fun. (0:08:20) Al: Pardon me, that’s what we were talking about. (0:08:23) Kelly: I like the different mechanics that they’ve added into it. (0:08:26) Kelly: I enjoy having magic. (0:08:27) Al: Yep. Interesting. (0:08:28) Kelly: I wouldn’t say it’s like the most thrilling farming game. (0:08:32) Kelly: I’ve ever played, but I think it’s overwhelming in a way that keeps my attention. (0:08:38) Kelly: Like having the different farms in different areas. (0:08:42) Al: It’s quite story based as well, isn’t it? (0:08:43) Kelly: Yes, yes, there’s a lot. (0:08:45) Al: How are you finding that? (0:08:47) Kelly: Um, it’s good. (0:08:49) Kelly: I don’t always pay attention to stories and games, so I’m not the best person. (0:08:54) Al: Yeah, same. (0:08:57) Kelly: I will say sometimes I look over to the characters, though, and have my eyes coped at one, I think. (0:09:03) Kelly: You guys don’t have that much clothes on. (0:09:04) Al: I’ve had, I backed this game on Kickstarter and I’ve had it in my Steam library now for (0:09:14) Al: a couple of years. I’ve not done anything with it. I have not, no. I think part of my (0:09:16) Kelly: Have you played it? (0:09:21) Al: problem is there’s like a time frame after a game comes out where if I don’t play a game (0:09:26) Al: in that time period I’m probably never playing it. (0:09:28) Kelly: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and that’s hard because you have games that like you want to play and also (0:09:35) Al: Let me tell you how many games have come out this year, purely farming games. We are currently (0:09:41) Al: at 20. 20 games have come out this year so far. No, actually I’m wrong. 22. No, 24. 25. (0:09:51) Al: 25 games that I am tracking on this game, on this podcast, by the 10th of May. There’s (0:09:54) Kelly: By May. (0:09:59) Al: more coming out in May. There’s another three on the list that are releasing this month. (0:10:03) Kelly: Are they flooding the market? (0:10:06) Al: It’s the Stardew Effect. We’re just at that time period. We are, what is this, eight years (0:10:08) Kelly: It is. (0:10:10) Al: after Stardew got popular? So just everybody’s finishing up their Stardew clones. (0:10:12) Kelly: Yeah. (0:10:18) Kelly: That is very true. (0:10:19) Kelly: And unfortunately, Sunhaven does fall into that. (0:10:24) Kelly: But again, I think it’s not the most unique farming game I’ve (0:10:28) Kelly: ever played, but I do like some of the things that they’ve added. (0:10:31) Kelly: I also just find it comforting. (0:10:33) Kelly: I like a good micromanagy game. (0:10:36) Al: Yeah, yeah, I’ll talk about mine in a minute. (0:10:38) Al: But, yeah, I totally agree with that. (0:10:40) Al: I wonder. (0:10:40) Kelly: And I do like that you don’t spend energy. (0:10:44) Al: Oh, yeah, so we’re going to have to we’re (0:10:46) Al: definitely going to have to talk about this game then (0:10:48) Al: because I am also playing a game which doesn’t have energy. (0:10:54) Kelly: It’s a fun mechanic to like, not worry about. (0:10:54) Al: And that is. (0:10:57) Al: Yeah. (0:10:59) Al: I am very much enjoying it. (0:11:02) Kelly: It’s really nice. (0:11:04) Kelly: Like, oh, there’s still always the time, you know, crunch or whatever. (0:11:06) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:11:07) Kelly: But like, oh, I don’t have to eat 10,000 apples just because I (0:11:11) Kelly: want to hit a few more rocks. (0:11:13) Al: This is the thing that’s always annoyed me about farming games is you’ve got two (0:11:17) Al: limitations, you’ve got the time and the energy and removing one or the other of (0:11:24) Al: them, because Ever After Falls, which is what I’m playing and Sunhaven, (0:11:29) Al: which is what you’re playing, both remove the stamina. (0:11:32) Al: but Sugaju Valley, which we’ll talk about in the news section, (0:11:36) Al: it removed the time aspect where it’s essentially turn based. (0:11:41) Al: So you do your stuff and then you there’s two phases to the day. (0:11:45) Al: There’s the day phase and the night phase. (0:11:48) Al: And the night phase is when you open the shop. (0:11:51) Al: So it’s like you do whatever you want to do and then you go and open the shop. (0:11:54) Al: And then when you close the shop, it’s bedtime. (0:11:58) Kelly: that’s sick yeah yeah yeah sometimes bad games yeah it’s um which I think you (0:11:59) Al: So I like the… (0:12:01) Al: I mean, it’s not a good game, it’s a bad game. (0:12:03) Al: But it was interest that was that was an interest. (0:12:06) Al: Interesting thing and I like the games are now trying to play around with these things a little bit more. (0:12:13) Kelly: know that’s one of the things that we benefit from at like at the time point (0:12:17) Kelly: we’re in post stardew is like obviously that a lot of copies came out but I (0:12:24) Kelly: I think we’re really starting to see people like try to change (0:12:28) Al: Mm hmm. Yeah. So we’ll see. We’ll see how those things go. But OK, so you’re enjoying Sun Haven. (0:12:36) Kelly: Yes, I have put over 100 hours into it so far. (0:12:39) Al: Let me schedule that episode then. Sun Haven. Kelly. We’ll see when we do that. (0:12:48) Kelly: You know, you’re the reason I actually picked it up, I think, is because we were talking (0:12:50) Al: I’ve been meaning to play it for so long. Maybe I can event. Maybe I can finally play it if I’ve got (0:12:55) Al: a date to record on it. Aha! (0:12:58) Al: Right, OK. Was it in the news then? (0:12:59) Kelly: about it during the grimoire podcast. (0:13:06) Kelly: Probably I don’t know. (0:13:07) Kelly: I know it got mentioned. (0:13:08) Kelly: It was probably like a brief mentioning, but I think it was the news. (0:13:10) Al: many things, come on. Well I have obviously been playing Ratopia, I’ve only been playing the demo, (0:13:13) Kelly: So you influenced me, congrats. (0:13:22) Al: we’ll get to that later, but yeah I’ve been playing the demo of Ratopia. I’ve also been (0:13:29) Al: playing Ever After Falls and I have put in about 60 hours in that game so far, so it hooked me. (0:13:34) Kelly: What, what’s, what’s that one? (0:13:37) Al: So that’s just another stardew clone, but it um (0:13:40) Al: Obviously, as I said, it doesn’t have the stamina aspect, but it’s, let’s see, how would I describe, so it’s premise is slightly different, where you die at the beginning of the game, and then wake up and turns out that your real life was a simulation, and now you’re in another world with a farm. (0:14:06) Kelly: Oh, interesting. So really planning on people’s simpsychosis fears. (0:14:11) Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And it’s very solid, I would say, probably much like what you’re talking about with Sunhaven. It’s like a solid farming game, and it has definitely caught that bug that I have for I must do this thing, and I’m building up this farm, and that is what I’m doing. (0:14:37) Al: And I’ve been enjoying that. (0:14:40) Al: And I have some things to talk about it that I’m going to talk about in a future (0:14:43) Al: episode that I found interesting, but I think if you’d like Stardew and you’ve (0:14:49) Al: been like, I must have another one and I’m done with Stardew, (0:14:52) Al: I want a different list. (0:14:54) Al: It’s a pretty solid one. (0:14:55) Kelly: The graphics look really cute. (0:14:57) Al: Yeah, that’s what initially grabbed me in. (0:14:59) Al: And the animation of it is fun as well, like your character’s arms are not (0:15:03) Al: attached to the body and they can swing really funny as you walk around. (0:15:08) Al: And there’s a few other things like you’ve (0:15:10) Al: seen these that you can catch and put them on things and you’ll get like wood or (0:15:14) Al: or without actually cutting the thing down. (0:15:17) Al: And that’s kind of like around it’s trying to encourage sustainability. (0:15:18) Kelly: Oh, that’s cool. (0:15:21) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:15:22) Al: So, yeah, there’s a few bits and pieces. (0:15:22) Kelly: Yeah, but it’s that solid game. (0:15:27) Kelly: Sometimes you don’t need anything innovative or crazy (0:15:29) Al: Yeah. Yeah. (0:15:30) Kelly: different. (0:15:30) Kelly: It’s just a nice, comforting game. (0:15:34) Al: So that’s what I’ve mostly been playing. (0:15:37) Al: I have also, so two picks earlier came out and I had backed that game. (0:15:42) Al: So this is like a life sim in a kind of stardew style, (0:15:48) Al: but it’s much more, it’s almost, I guess, GTA-esque. (0:15:54) Kelly: I was gonna say it looks like kind of reminds me of like I don’t want to say sim city but like (0:16:00) Al: I guess it would be some city if you were actually controlling an individual. (0:16:00) Kelly: something like that (0:16:04) Kelly: yeah that’s that’s which I guess is kind of like the ratopia of also (0:16:10) Al: Yeah, I think it’s different from that in so much as like you don’t have any control (0:16:15) Al: over anyone else. You’re just living your own life, but you can you can do crime and (0:16:16) Kelly: Mmm. (0:16:20) Al: stuff like that. What I will say is I’ve not properly played it because it doesn’t have (0:16:21) Kelly: Okay, that’s cool. That’s fun. (0:16:27) Al: controller support. So later, I play on my Steam Deck. (0:16:30) Kelly: Oh, you don’t do mouse and keyboard. (0:16:35) Kelly: Ah, that’s crazy. (0:16:36) Kelly: I didn’t consider that, that… (0:16:38) Kelly: Why would they put anything on the Steam Deck (0:16:40) Kelly: that doesn’t have… (0:16:40) Al: Well, anything on Steam goes on the Steam Deck by default, and most games coming out (0:16:43) Kelly: Yeah, no, I understand that, but like… (0:16:47) Al: now will have controller support. It’s a good question as to why it doesn’t have controller (0:16:52) Al: support yet, and I do not know the answer. They have said that they’re adding controller (0:16:56) Al: support soon, but yeah, I’m just like, why, why, why? (0:16:57) Kelly: okay hopefully like I get what you’re saying like obviously they push everything from steam to it (0:17:03) Kelly: but like you would think that there would be like some kind of filter like (0:17:08) Al: They have a compatibility thing and it’s and it currently has an unknown compatibility (0:17:12) Al: for Steam Deck. (0:17:13) Kelly: okay (0:17:14) Al: So. (0:17:15) Al: But whatever. (0:17:16) Al: Yeah. (0:17:17) Al: I opened it up. (0:17:18) Al: Went. (0:17:19) Kelly: yeah that’s that’s fair that’s very fair (0:17:19) Al: Yeah. (0:17:20) Al: Nope. (0:17:21) Al: We closed it. (0:17:24) Al: I’ll try again once you’ve added controller support, please and thank you. (0:17:28) Al: So, yeah, that’s. (0:17:30) Kelly: Interesting concept though. (0:17:31) Al: Yeah. (0:17:32) Al: Yeah. (0:17:33) Al: Well, I want to try it. (0:17:34) Al: That’s the thing. (0:17:35) Al: Like what it is saying it’s doing (0:17:38) Al: It has mixed reviews on Steam just now. (0:17:40) Al: So who knows how that will go, but (0:17:42) Kelly: Well, you know. You gotta try stuff. (0:17:43) Al: we’ll see. (0:17:46) Al: All right, let’s talk about some news. (0:17:48) Kelly: Yay! News! (0:17:50) Al: Tales, Tales of Saikyu. (0:17:56) Kelly: I think sake you, but like, also, I’m not a- (0:18:00) Al: This is the game where you turn into Yoko, Yoko, Yoko. (0:18:06) Kelly: Yokai? (0:18:08) Al: This game is where you turn into Yoko for getting around and dealing with your crops and stuff like that. (0:18:09) Kelly: Taseku, mess you up. (0:18:21) Al: You have a whole bunch of different abilities for turning into different Yokai that have different abilities to do these things. (0:18:30) Al: Yeah, yeah, I haven’t decided whether I want to play this or not, but it is a thing. (0:18:36) Al: and they’ve announced that their early access is coming. (0:18:38) Al: I don’t think this was a Kickstarter, so I won’t have backed it, so don’t buy it. (0:18:40) Kelly: Oh, very soon. (0:18:53) Al: I’m telling myself that, not other people. (0:18:56) Al: I can’t be trusted. (0:18:57) Al: Yeah, not much else to say about that, they’ve just announced their early access is coming. (0:19:03) Al: One thing I didn’t check is what they’re expecting in terms of how long. (0:19:08) Al: Because that’s always an interesting thing is how long they say they’re going to be in (0:19:11) Al: early access for. (0:19:13) Al: They’re expecting it to be about a year, so I suspect two and a half years. (0:19:18) Kelly: That sounds like good math. (0:19:24) Al: Next we have another update for Sugaju Island. (0:19:27) Al: So this game is bad game, don’t buy this game, don’t play this game, but they are making (0:19:32) Al: it less bad. (0:19:34) Al: Maybe someday it will be less bad enough that it will be worth buying, it probably won’t (0:19:38) Al: be. (0:19:39) Al: So in this update they’ve added sprinklers, so you can have sprinklers on the farm. (0:19:45) Al: Yay. (0:19:46) Kelly: And you can discover seashells. (0:19:46) Al: It’s such a, yeah, wow, I just, what, well, lackluster updates for lackluster game, that’s (0:19:47) Kelly: How exciting. (0:19:53) Kelly: This is like really lackluster updates. (0:19:55) Kelly: I’m sorry. (0:19:59) Al: what I would say. (0:20:02) Al: I don’t, they’ve also added key bindings support, so you can change your key bindings, which (0:20:06) Al: Good, I’m glad. (0:20:08) Al: You should have had that at lunch. I find this game so fascinating, (0:20:14) Al: because it feels so much like we need to do a farming game, so let’s do a farming game. (0:20:21) Al: And the only interesting thing about it was the turn-based time in the day. It is, (0:20:28) Kelly: Which is like a really cool concept, which is that sounds so interesting. (0:20:32) Al: but… but he’s just not good. (0:20:34) Kelly: They put all their effort into that one concept and nothing else. (0:20:38) Al: They’ve marked this as a major update on Steam. That is something. Uh, yeah. (0:20:46) Kelly: I mean, I’m going to just say this like then I think the name alone implies to me that there’s not a lot of effort going on here. (0:20:54) Al: Oh Kelly, you probably haven’t listened to last week’s episode have you? (0:20:57) Al: There were two new games in last week’s episode that were called Sunseed Island and Starsand Island. (0:21:08) Kelly: We got to start like putting a ban on certain words for farm game (0:21:14) Al: Known, known, island or valley. Yeah, this is… (0:21:18) Kelly: If you have “do” in your name. (0:21:24) Al: Good changes to the game, but that does not make a good game. (0:21:31) Al: I cannot see how either of these three tiny things in this major update would (0:21:39) Al: change this game from being bad to being good. I have no interest in opening that game again. (0:21:48) Kelly: Definitely good to know. I was very intrigued when you mentioned the turn-based, and very (0:21:52) Kelly: disappointed when you immediately followed up with that it’s a bad game. (0:21:54) Al: here lies the problem. They do have a demo. Feel free to try the demo. I mean, some people (0:22:01) Al: like it, apparently, there are some positive reviews. Apparently, it’s mostly positive. (0:22:07) Al: I don’t know how. I really don’t know. So, like, every recommended person is like, oh, (0:22:08) Kelly: Are they paying these people? (0:22:17) Al: it’s so nice. And they’re like, but it’s not. And all the not recommended is like, it is (0:22:23) Al: the most boring farming game. (0:22:24) Al: With so few features, it feels like a proof of concept and then they didn’t add the rest of the game. (0:22:36) Kelly: I don’t know how Steam reviews work. (0:22:38) Al: You just have to own it, I think. (0:22:42) Kelly: Yeah, but like, I think it tells you, right, if like, they got it for free. (0:22:44) Al: Oh, good question. Purchase type. Steam purchases and other. So other would be free ones. (0:22:53) Kelly: That’s what I would think, but like I meant more so too on like the, oh, no, nevermind. (0:22:58) Kelly: 230 people found this review helpful. (0:23:02) Al: Oh, is that the not recommended one at the top? (0:23:04) Kelly: Yeah. (0:23:06) Al: I can’t believe I put 12 hours into this game, absolutely mad. (0:23:09) Kelly: That’s a lot of hours. (0:23:10) Al: It’s a lot of hours for a bad game. (0:23:13) Al: All right, yeah, I’m going to start bashing this game. (0:23:14) Kelly: Next. (0:23:16) Al: Moving on, Outlanders have announced a new DLC, The Culinary Diaries. (0:23:23) Al: It looks like it’s a food based story addition to the game. (0:23:29) Al: This is a town building strategy game. (0:23:31) Kelly: OK, it looks like a short hike or the goose game. (0:23:36) Al: Yeah, I mean, graphics wise, yeah, it’s very much management style game, though, rather (0:23:38) Kelly: Yes, yeah, that’s what I’m basing that off of entirely. (0:23:44) Kelly: OK. (0:23:45) Al: than I have not. There’s too many games to play them all. But yeah, it looks like it’s (0:23:47) Kelly: Have you played this one? (0:23:55) Al: added a whole bunch of cooking stuff. So if you enjoy this game, there you go. You got (0:24:01) Al: a new update? A new DLC? Or is it paid? That’s a good question, I should check that. (0:24:06) Al: It is… No, it’s not free. It is $5. It is not bad. They’ve got quite a few DLCs, (0:24:06) Kelly: It’s free, maybe. (0:24:13) Kelly: Oh, that’s not bad. (0:24:17) Al: which is interesting. They’re all $5. Yeah, they also have very positive rating on Steam. (0:24:18) Kelly: I noticed that it seems like they’re, they have quite the DLC (0:24:29) Al: None of that tells as much, because it’s Sugaju Island, Suga Valley, whatever, I don’t care. (0:24:30) Kelly: - I think no. (0:24:37) Al: Had a positive, quite positive, was it? Or something like that? I don’t know. It was positive for some reason. (0:24:46) Kelly: But I mean, like, I feel like generally, obviously, (0:24:49) Kelly: that’s not true for everything. (0:24:51) Kelly: Games that tend to put out consistent DLC content, (0:24:55) Kelly: like, there’s something good going on. (0:24:57) Al: Yeah, it has twenty nine thumbs up on the Steam post and zero comments. (0:25:03) Al: So you’ve not got a whole bunch of people (0:25:05) Al: complaining about it being paid, which implies to me that some people are (0:25:10) Al: excited to buy it. (0:25:10) Kelly: Yeah. And again, for $5, it’s not a bad addition. (0:25:14) Al: Five dollars. (0:25:17) Al: All right, next, we have some new games to talk about. (0:25:21) Al: First up, we have turnip bill. (0:25:25) Al: Words, words. (0:25:25) Kelly: You’re not having a good day with the, I’m immediately adding this one to my wish list (0:25:27) Al: Fail me, Callie. (0:25:33) Al: Turnip Boy steals them all. (0:25:36) Al: Uh, have you played any Turnip Boy game? (0:25:39) Kelly: I have not, um, not out of like not wanting to, but like just life. (0:25:45) Al: So turn it by commits tax evasion is great fun. It’s it’s a really good (0:25:51) Al: small (0:25:53) Al: RPG and I really liked that game turn it by Rob’s a bank is (0:26:00) Al: similar in terms of its action (0:26:02) Al: But it is a roguelite (0:26:06) Kelly: Oh, interesting. So not for Al. (0:26:08) Al: I (0:26:09) Al: Mean I I played it. I want to see how many hours I put into it. I put in (0:26:11) Kelly: Yeah. (0:26:15) Al: I played it on the switch not steam apparently (0:26:18) Al: So I would need to I would need to look on my switch, which I’m not doing right now (0:26:23) Al: I (0:26:26) Al: Finished the game. I completed it which I haven’t done for many many roguelites (0:26:35) Kelly: says a lot. I didn’t realize how new these games were though. That’s crazy that they’ve put out (0:26:40) Kelly: three games in like four years. (0:26:43) Al: Yeah, 10 hours is apparently what I put into it to complete the game. (0:26:48) Kelly: Oh, that’s, that’s a, that’s like a solid cute little short game. (0:26:52) Al: Yeah, well, that’s the thing about them. They’re not super long, (0:26:55) Al: you know, you’re not looking at 50 hours, you’re looking at up to 10. (0:27:00) Al: With Turnip Boy commits to excavation, I 100% did it. I didn’t 100% (0:27:05) Al: rob the bank, but I did complete the story. I completed that run, completed that run. (0:27:12) Al: Which is enough. (0:27:13) Al: For a roguelite, for me, considering I only got a third of the way through a run in Hades. (0:27:27) Al: Defeated the first boss, then died in the next level and went “I’m not playing that boss again”. (0:27:36) Kelly: Where’s your dedication to pain? (0:27:40) Al: Nowhere. So yes, right. Okay, so this is a new Turnip Boy game. Don’t get excited. It is not an (0:27:46) Al: RPG. It is not like the previous Turnip Boy games. It is an endless runner for some reason. (0:27:55) Kelly: Very, you know, they found like their niche little like theme with the turnip boy, but like it’s very interesting that each game is different. (0:28:04) Al: Yeah, so what I’ve said in my notes here is, I’ll buy and play a new Turn It By game, right? (0:28:13) Al: Because I like Turn It By, but I’m a little bit disappointed that it’s a third game and (0:28:19) Al: it’s not like the first, because yeah, the second one was different, but it was the same (0:28:24) Al: as well. (0:28:25) Al: Like it was a roguelite, but it was still like a combat game in the same way that the (0:28:31) Al: other one was, right? (0:28:32) Al: The controls were the same, you controlled the player. (0:28:34) Al: The same, you still had a weapon in the same way, and there weren’t as many puzzles, right? (0:28:40) Al: The first one had more puzzles, but it was still there was the same combat and stuff like that. (0:28:46) Al: And this is very much not that. So I’m a little bit sad about that. (0:28:53) Al: I guess that’s fine, you know, they can do what they want. But yeah, I’m gonna buy it, I’m gonna (0:29:00) Al: to play it and I’m sure I’ll enjoy it but I want another turnip by turnip (0:29:04) Al: I was so good, it was funny (0:29:06) Kelly: I’ve literally only heard good things about it. Like, you know, it’s I feel like they (0:29:11) Kelly: really like turn a boy made himself into a thing. (0:29:14) Al: Turnaby commits tax evasion was a lovely RPG that you could 100% in 10 hours, and it was funny. (0:29:20) Al: It had a fun little story. It had some good combat that was actually challenging, (0:29:24) Al: especially near the end. And it was good fun. Turnaby robs a bank, had the challenging combat, (0:29:30) Al: and it had some of the funny story. And other than that, it missed the rest of it. (0:29:34) Al: And this presumably will have the same humor. But that’s it. And (0:29:38) Kelly: But that’s it. (0:29:39) Kelly: So they’re just slowly degrading. (0:29:44) Al: I feel bad saying that, because I suspect it’s not like they’re making this instead of another (0:29:50) Al: RPG, right? Like, I think they had a good idea for doing this. And they’ve done it as Turnaby. (0:29:57) Al: I’m just like, when I saw there’s a new Turnaby game, I went, “Oh, yes, great!” (0:30:01) Al: And I looked at it and went, “This is nothing like them at all.” (0:30:04) Kelly: Yeah. No, I was just being a little cynical, but I agree. (0:30:09) Kelly: I think that’s they’re just trying different avenues. (0:30:14) Kelly: It’s not like, oh, this is like a quick grab or something. (0:30:16) Al: Yeah, yeah, no, I get that. But yeah, I’m not saying it’s going to be a bad game. It’s (0:30:20) Al: just one of these things where it’s like, if you would hear, oh, you know, say you didn’t (0:30:25) Al: know about Silksong, right? And you heard Silksong’s coming out. It’s a new, a new Hollow Knight (0:30:33) Al: game. You’re like, oh, fantastic, exciting. And then it turns out it’s Solitaire. Right? (0:30:40) Kelly: Yeah, that would Yeah, yeah, that’s very true (0:30:41) Al: That’s essentially what we’ve had here. (0:30:44) Al: OK. (0:30:46) Al: Like I’m not saying it’s a bad game, I just saw new turnip game, excited. (0:30:50) Kelly: You want her to play, yeah (0:30:51) Al: It’s not that, that’s the problem. (0:30:54) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, no, that’s that’s the hard part (0:30:55) Al: And I guess this is the problem with spin-offs and stuff like that, right? (0:30:59) Al: Because this is what this is, it’s a spin-off, it’s not a sequel, it’s a spin-off. (0:31:02) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:31:03) Al: And I’m not saying they can’t do that, I’m just like, my expectations going in was different (0:31:09) Al: and I don’t know how they solve that problem, but that’s where we are. (0:31:14) Kelly: Well, maybe they’re working on that perfect Turnip Boy sequel in the back end. (0:31:20) Al: Well, they’re working on a different game just now as well, Hobknobbers, (0:31:26) Al: which I don’t think is out yet. (0:31:27) Al: Let me check. (0:31:27) Al: Yeah, it’s not. (0:31:28) Al: It’s still coming soon. (0:31:29) Al: So I suspect that the Hobknobbers is their upcoming big game and (0:31:37) Al: Turnip Boy steals them all as a let’s do a quick and easy, fun, endless (0:31:37) Kelly: - This is the, mm-hmm. (0:31:42) Al: runner that some people can buy and it will help our cash reserves. (0:31:49) Al: Well, speaking of their cash. (0:31:50) Al: It deserves, they’re also releasing a cubified turnip boy plushie. (0:31:53) Kelly: It’s so cute though and they have to reach their funded goal. (0:31:56) Al: I don’t need it. (0:32:00) Al: It’s $40! (0:32:01) Al: Oh my word, $40? (0:32:05) Al: This thing better be huge, how big is this? (0:32:07) Al: It’s 35 centimetres tall, so it is reasonably big, but that’s a lot of money. (0:32:14) Kelly: But it looks so soft. (0:32:16) Al: What is the shipping going to be to me? (0:32:20) Al: Probably too much. (0:32:20) Kelly: I don’t need this. What is the shipping? (0:32:26) Kelly: How much tariff would I have to pay to receive this? (0:32:30) Al: Oh 15 dollars shipping to me! (0:32:33) Kelly: Ugh. (0:32:34) Al: 55 dollars. (0:32:36) Kelly: Okay, that’s… that’s… (0:32:36) Al: And it is only 40 pounds, but I’m enjoying the dollar has sunk. (0:32:38) Kelly: But he’s so cute. (0:32:50) Kelly: Well, I’m so glad that someone’s benefited. (0:32:58) Kelly: Oh, I see, there is a tariff statement at the top. (0:33:06) Al: I don’t need it anyway so cube turnip cube or cube boy whatever you’d like to call him he exists (0:33:14) Kelly: He’s very cute. (0:33:15) Al: yeah uh (0:33:16) Kelly: He looks like he’s like that good soft material, too. (0:33:18) Al: yeah yeah (0:33:20) Kelly: Like squishmallows. (0:33:22) Al: but not (0:33:22) Kelly: I’m just going to keep talking until you feel bad, (0:33:24) Kelly: and then you add yourself to life. (0:33:29) Al: everdream valley have announced and released I think I think this is out now (0:33:34) Al: Ever Dream Valley. (0:33:36) Al: VR. A virtual reality version of Ever Dream Valley. (0:33:38) Kelly: Oh, oh, I don’t like that at all. I can’t look at that. (0:33:42) Kelly: I think I would puke if I ever did VR. (0:33:46) Al: I played, there was a game that I played which was like in VR, but you, but it was (0:33:54) Al: augmented reality rather than virtual reality. So you’re seeing the world around you as well (0:33:58) Al: and you like create these little islands where you put animals on them. I love that game. It’s such a (0:33:59) Kelly: OK. (0:34:05) Kelly: That seems cuter, and probably wouldn’t (0:34:07) Kelly: give me motion sickness, maybe. (0:34:10) Al: it was yeah it was a it definitely is much better um this I oh (0:34:16) Kelly: I literally can’t look at that cow clip. (0:34:18) Al: yeah I don’t I don’t know what to say about this game uh (0:34:25) Al: this kind of looks like a proof of concept this looks thrown together um (0:34:30) Kelly: It doesn’t look good. (0:34:32) Al: oh it’s not out yet it’s coming soon but you can pre-order it (0:34:34) Kelly: No yeah yeah but like that cow clip does not look good. (0:34:38) Al: No, no. (0:34:40) Al: No. (0:34:42) Kelly: Feels like I don’t, maybe I’m biased because I don’t like VR but like (0:34:47) Kelly: I thought we were kind of coming down from like the VR (0:34:51) Kelly: um spike I guess. (0:34:54) Al: do it. Yeah, I don’t know why they’ve done this. Like I have a VR headset and I love (0:34:59) Al: it for some things. I love Beat Saber. I love whatever the name of the game is. I kind (0:35:01) Kelly: Mm-hmm (0:35:07) Kelly: Beat Saber looks so sick. I think that would that’s like the the soul game that would sell me a (0:35:12) Al: It is the single thing that convinces anybody to buy VR. (0:35:17) Al: It is so good, I love it so much. (0:35:21) Al: But that, watching films in IMAX and whatever the name of the other game I play, the one (0:35:29) Al: with the Islands of Animals, those are the three things I’ve done more than once on my (0:35:33) Kelly: okay yeah no and it’s a separate game right like yeah you have to pay (0:35:35) Al: VR headset, right? (0:35:36) Al: Like there’s other things that you’ve tried once or whatever and gone “not for me”. (0:35:42) Al: It’s game, but the content. (0:35:47) Al: Yeah. (0:35:48) Al: It’s twenty dollars I think? (0:35:50) Kelly: you could pre-order it for 15 (0:35:58) Kelly: Yeah, no, I feel like a lot of the VR game just feel like novelty. (0:36:02) Al: Tune in next time to see if I’ve bought this game or not. (0:36:07) Al: All right. (0:36:08) Al: That’s the news. (0:36:09) Al: Let’s talk about Ratopia. (0:36:11) Kelly: Yay, I’m just so glad it came out. (0:36:12) Al: All right, I’m going to. (0:36:15) Kelly: Can I say that as someone who is waiting on so many different stupid games? (0:36:16) Al: Yeah. (0:36:20) Kelly: It is so nice to get a full release. (0:36:25) Al: OK, I want to try and describe this game and you can tell me what you think (0:36:30) Kelly: Okay. (0:36:30) Al: about my description. (0:36:32) Al: You are the the queen of a new rat city (0:36:39) Al: and you are building your city out. (0:36:43) Al: You it’s it’s almost it almost is like a it is a city builder, (0:36:49) Al: but it is a an RPG city builder. (0:36:52) Al: So you’re controlling a character. (0:36:55) Al: And you are building up the city. (0:36:58) Al: You’re you know, you’re saying this is where buildings go and you’re saying this (0:37:02) Al: different things go and this is these are the laws of the city and stuff like that. (0:37:08) Al: And you also accept in new members or new citizens. (0:37:14) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:37:15) Al: They are. They call them (0:37:18) Al: they call them migrants or refugees. (0:37:19) Kelly: I think it’s migrants. (0:37:19) Al: I can’t remember. It’s one of the two. (0:37:21) Kelly: It’s something with an M. I know that. (0:37:22) Al: I think it’s my yeah, it’ll be migrants then. (0:37:25) Al: And when you accept migrants in, you can then put them to work. (0:37:29) Al: Or you, so I guess the two, two. (0:37:32) Al: Your main ways of playing the game are you are controlling your individual character who goes around and can do things, and then you’re also directing your citizens to do things as well, so you don’t have to do them instead. (0:37:47) Al: And that can be basically anything, right? You can get them to man a specific building, to like lumber, or you can get them to dig. (0:37:55) Al: I think automatically they will like gather up everything that’s on the ground and put it in the chest. (0:38:02) Al: That’s it. It’s a city builder, but you are controlling an individual character as well as telling other characters what to do. (0:38:10) Al: Is that a fair description of the game? (0:38:12) Kelly: I think it is also it’s vertical builder uh like yeah yeah yeah (0:38:14) Al: What does that mean? What do you mean? Oh, like a 2D, yeah, okay, I see what you mean. It’s side scrolling up and downy. (0:38:22) Kelly: yes but like you’re building vertically which I think is like more terraria than like other (0:38:25) Al: Yes. I was going to, I was just going to say that Terraria is the, is the. (0:38:32) Al: Would be the example. (0:38:34) Kelly: I would say this is like a micromanagers final boss game (0:38:38) Al: Oh, my word, so micromanaging. (0:38:40) Kelly: It’s, it makes. (0:38:42) Kelly: It makes my heart sing. It’s incredible and so stressful. (0:38:45) Al: So let me tell you how I, let me tell you my thought process when starting this game. I’ve not put in, like, I’ve maybe put in less than an hour into this game, but the demo is really good at showing you the core concept of the game really quickly, and I don’t know if the main game does it in the same way, but. (0:39:02) Al: And you’re like, oh, you’re great. That’s fine. I’m going to go do some digging and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh, man, I can only carry three things at once and there’s only three of the same thing. (0:39:10) Al: Oh, that’s really frustrating. Oh, goodness. Right. This is going to take forever to do anything. It’s like you dig, dig, dig, and then you throw in the chest and then you dig, dig, dig, and you throw in the chest. Right. Fine. Whatever. This is really annoying. (0:39:22) Al: Oh, OK. Right. I’m adding in new people to my city. OK, fine. Oh, they’re all picking up the things I can do so I can just go now and dig and dig and dig and dig and they will take the thing. Great. That’s a much improvement. (0:39:32) Al: And then it’s like, oh, and then it goes, oh, you need to build this thing. And you’re like, how do I do this? And it’s like you go into this menu and this menu then expands and expands and expands. (0:39:43) Al: And it’s like this web, absolute mass, massive web of different parts of different menus. And you’re just like, I have no idea what’s happening here. (0:39:54) Al: And it’s just it is, if you enjoy not creating spreadsheets, but if you enjoy looking at. (0:40:02) Al: Somebody else’s spreadsheets and figuring out what they do, you will like this game. (0:40:08) Kelly: I think that is a fair– (0:40:12) Kelly: not metaphor, what is the word I’m looking for– (0:40:15) Kelly: summation of essentially all of the aspects of this game. (0:40:18) Al: Where I enjoy making spreadsheets, I do not enjoy figuring out what other people have done, and that’s what the menu felt like. I’m like, I want this thing, but I need to figure out what category they put it in, what category of what category, and what menu of what setting, and then where in this category is it, because it’s just like this mess of things. (0:40:42) Al: And I don’t like figuring out what people think in the best of times. (0:40:48) Al: And it just feels like somebody made this game, and this is how they decided was the most logical thing for their brain, and I cannot be bothered spending my time figuring out why they decided. (0:41:02) Kelly: I think that is a very fair way to see it because I think that’s exactly how it is. (0:41:10) Kelly: But also, I feel like once it starts clicking, it starts making more sense because for me, (0:41:16) Kelly: I really enjoy trying to figure out how people are thinking because I think that’s the only (0:41:20) Kelly: way I can understand vaguely people. (0:41:26) Kelly: So it’s like a puzzle. (0:41:27) Kelly: So I think the puzzle of trying to understand the thought process is kind of fun. (0:41:32) Kelly: Also frustrating, though. (0:41:35) Kelly: Like, there’s definitely been moments where I’m like, (0:41:38) Kelly: “This stupid rat has to pee! How do I fix this?” (0:41:42) Al: Yes, I (0:41:42) Kelly: You know, like, “What do you mean they can’t do this task?” (0:41:46) Al: Think that part of it is is is I I didn’t hate right because it’s like you’re just your standard city builder thing (0:41:50) Kelly: No, no, it’s not bad (0:41:52) Al: It’s like you need to balance you need to balance all these things and you need to figure out how they balance fine (0:41:57) Al: Sure, whatever my problem. I just felt like I was navigating menus for 90% of the time (0:41:57) Kelly: Yes, it’s just I think (0:42:03) Kelly: It’s a lot of menus (0:42:04) Kelly: I did see someone say that they didn’t like that the game paused when you opened the menu to like build something and in (0:42:11) Kelly: My head I was like, what the hell are you talking about? (0:42:13) Al: All right souls player, goodness me, just masochistic person. (0:42:15) Kelly: Yeah, I was like what kind of game do you think this is that’s crazy (0:42:21) Kelly: Then like I literally I watched that and I was like what the hell kind of person (0:42:27) Al: Oh, my word. Horrifying. (0:42:28) Kelly: That’s sick that’s sicko behavior (0:42:32) Kelly: It’s like please keep those thoughts to yourself and I think better never implement that in this game (0:42:38) Al: Yeah, that that that how to make this game more stressful. (0:42:42) Kelly: Yeah, literally, like you said, the souls-like version. (0:42:47) Kelly: That’s disgusting. (0:42:48) Kelly: Don’t ever tell people that. (0:42:50) Al: It was like the kid just said, “Is it time for a test in school?” (0:42:51) Kelly: Like, I need those, I need that pause (0:42:54) Kelly: to figure out what I’m doing. (0:42:58) Al: And you’re like, “No! (0:42:59) Al: What are you doing? (0:43:00) Al: What?” (0:43:00) Kelly: You didn’t collect our homework. (0:43:01) Al: Yeah. (0:43:02) Al: Oh. (0:43:06) Kelly: But yeah, no, that blew my mind. (0:43:07) Kelly: ‘Cause I was like, people think like this? (0:43:10) Kelly: Why would you want that? (0:43:12) Al: So yeah, I think I, I mean, we’re just, we’re apparently getting straight into (0:43:15) Al: my opinions, um, I, I can, I, this is not the game for me, but I 100% can see why (0:43:16) Kelly: I think that’s very fair, and I do overall, I think this game, there is so much going (0:43:21) Al: someone would like this 100%. (0:43:29) Kelly: on and like, I like Rimworld a lot, I don’t know half of the shit I’m supposed to be doing (0:43:36) Kelly: in Rimworld because there’s just so much in that game. (0:43:41) Kelly: I don’t even buy the DLCs for that game, I just like playing the game, I figure things (0:43:45) Kelly: Peace out as the game goes on. (0:43:46) Kelly: You know, I’ve been playing it for a few years, things will happen, bad things happen, sometimes you die. (0:43:48) Al: Yeah (0:43:51) Al: Do you know I think (0:43:53) Al: What I think interesting was I think that when I while I was playing this game (0:43:57) Al: I think I was thinking you know what I would have more fun doing probably what is terraria (0:44:03) Al: Right, like I feel like that’s what I’m looking for if I’m one if I would be wanting to play this game (0:44:08) Al: It’s it’s I I I want it simpler (0:44:13) Al: I’m not it’s not necessarily even the action adventure bit right like it’s it’s more I (0:44:14) Kelly: That’s, yeah. (0:44:18) Al: Was thinking like this but (0:44:22) Al: Minecraft and then I was like wait, but that’s terraria, right? (0:44:24) Kelly: Mmm (0:44:26) Kelly: That’s so funny because I’ve I’ve actually never played I missed the boat on Terraria (0:44:30) Kelly: And I’ve also never played Minecraft because I 100% missed the boat on that one. I feel like at a certain point (0:44:37) Kelly: Like I think I would still enjoy Minecraft, but at this point in my life. I’m just like I cannot pick up Minecraft (0:44:43) Al: That’s totally fair. Minecraft was my, like I got in literally the last day of alpha (0:44:50) Kelly: Oh, wow. (0:44:51) Al: in Minecraft. So that was back on in 2010, I want to say. And that was like, I was, (0:44:56) Kelly: Mm-hmm. And I know people are still playing it. I know, you know, it’s still a relevant game. (0:45:00) Al: oh yeah, yeah. Oh, absolutely. But I was like part of the way through uni at that point, (0:45:07) Al: university. So like I, I was very much in a world where I. (0:45:12) Al: Could sit up till three in the morning, obsessing over stuff. And I loved the building aspect of (0:45:18) Al: that. So I, I, if I, obviously I do not have any numbers for how much time I spent on Minecraft, (0:45:25) Al: because it wasn’t through Steam and nothing exists for that. But if I did have numbers, (0:45:30) Al: I would probably be incredibly scared to share that number with anyone, right? Like. (0:45:34) Kelly: That’s how I feel about my Sims numbers, you know? I’m so glad I don’t have those. (0:45:39) Al: Yeah. Yeah, same, same sort of thing. (0:45:42) Al: Absolutely. (0:45:45) Kelly: But no, I think what I like about this game is that there’s so much going on. Like in (0:45:50) Kelly: a sense it’s like, I enjoy bein

Al and Kelly talk about Grimoire Groves Disclosure: We received a free review code for Grimoire Groves. #gifted Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:02:23: What Have We Been Up To 00:12:16: Game News 00:36:28: New Games 00:39:42: Grimoire Groves 01:12:37: Outro Links Harvest Moon Pre-Orders Bugaboo Pocket Release Date Fields of Mistria 2nd Update Go-go Town “Spring Cleaning” Update Sun Haven “Festivals” 2.0 Update Autonomica (Farm Folks) Name Change Coral Island 2025 Roadmap Everdream Village Contact Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Al: Hello, farmers, and welcome to another episode of the Harvest Season. (0:00:34) Al: My name is Al, and we are here today to talk about cottagecore games. (0:00:36) Kelly: And my name is Kelly. (0:00:40) Kelly: Yay. (0:00:41) Al: Welcome back, Kelly. How are you doing? (0:00:44) Kelly: Good. (0:00:44) Kelly: It’s always nice to be back. (0:00:46) Kelly: It’s so funny, because all of my voice recordings are just– (0:00:46) Al: Always nice to have you. (0:00:52) Kelly: oh, it’s like memory lane looking at all the past podcasts. (0:00:56) Al: You were last on talking about fields of mystery, which we might have stuff to talk about with (0:01:00) Kelly: Yes, yes. (0:01:04) Kelly: Yeah, I saw there was a note, but I (0:01:06) Kelly: I haven’t checked it out since we last spoke. (0:01:10) Kelly: Yeah, how have you been? (0:01:10) Al: But yeah, your first one of the year you did three last year. (0:01:12) Kelly: Oh, yeah, 2025. (0:01:14) Al: Let’s see if we can get you above three this year. (0:01:19) Al: Cool. Well, I have Kelly on this episode because we are going to (0:01:23) Al: talk about grimoire groves, grimoire groves. (0:01:28) Kelly: Yes, it’s like a little tongue twister. (0:01:31) Al: Yes, grimoire groves. (0:01:34) Al: Got to say up front, obviously, we received a free review code (0:01:38) Al: for the game, which actually can. (0:01:40) Al: I don’t know. No, that was a joke. That was a joke. That was a joke. (0:02:00) Kelly: No, no, no, no, I would absolutely pay money for this game. (0:02:11) Al: Spoiler alert. Yeah, so we’re going to talk about that game later in the episode. Before (0:02:15) Kelly: And thank you, Al, for that. (0:02:22) Al: that, we’ve obviously got a bunch of news, but first of all, Kelly, what have you been (0:02:26) Kelly: I have been up to taking care of a stray cat and then just trying to start (0:02:33) Kelly: planning out stuff for the spring for the yard. (0:02:36) Al: Oh, yes. Is it garden talking time? What’s your plans for this year? (0:02:39) Kelly: Yeah, but also we’re trying to… I don’t know yet. I’m still waiting but I have to (0:02:47) Kelly: clean up the yard because I prioritized weeding other areas of the house last (0:02:51) Kelly: fall instead of the garden, so it’s still kind of overgrown. (0:02:56) Kelly: I’m trying to get dirt so I can level out the borders of the (0:02:59) Kelly: yard and then tarp them. So exciting. And besides that, I’ve (0:03:08) Kelly: been playing Infinity Nikki for three solid months. This broke (0:03:11) Kelly: my streak, actually. I still play the game every day, so it (0:03:12) Al: No, I haven’t played it (0:03:17) Kelly: didn’t actually break my streak. I just was the only game I was (0:03:19) Kelly: playing for three months. (0:03:22) Al: Fair enough. I haven’t played Infinity Nakey. I’m pretty sure that Dalin plays it as well. (0:03:29) Al: I think we’ve talked about it before, but if you’ve been playing it for three months (0:03:34) Al: straight, I guess you’ve been enjoying it then. (0:03:36) Kelly: - Yes, yes, I think there were definitely moments, (0:03:39) Al: This is the dress-up game, right? Yeah. (0:03:41) Kelly: yes, there were definitely moments where I was playing it (0:03:43) Kelly: ‘cause I just was like, I don’t really have anything else (0:03:45) Kelly: I’m trying to play at the moment, (0:03:48) Kelly: but there is a lot of content and it looks really nice (0:03:51) Kelly: and it’s just like fun to run around the open world (0:03:53) Kelly: and like collect your stuff. (0:03:55) Kelly: It’s just a collecting game. (0:03:56) Al: Yeah. Look, you’re talking to a Pokemon player, right? Like, I know what collecting is like, (0:04:01) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:04:03) Al: I know the feeling. I think it’s a unique part of it, is the fact that it’s a gacha (0:04:10) Al: collecting game, but with outfits, I think is fun. (0:04:12) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:04:14) Kelly: Yes. (0:04:15) Kelly: And unfortunately, there are some things (0:04:19) Kelly: that you cannot beat with essentially not doing the gotcha, (0:04:22) Kelly: but you don’t have to do everything. (0:04:24) Kelly: It’s not going to stop your story progression. (0:04:27) Kelly: You’re just not going to get bonuses. (0:04:30) Al: Right. They’ve got to have a reason for you to pay money, right? (0:04:30) Kelly: You’re just not going to get the coolest outfit. (0:04:33) Kelly: Did I– absolutely. (0:04:36) Kelly: And did I spend some money to get a frog outfit? (0:04:40) Kelly: Yes, but it was a surprise. (0:04:42) Kelly: There was a dog outfit and I needed it. (0:04:44) Kelly: But also like the game is free also, so. (0:04:47) Al: Yes. And, well, yes, exactly. Tell me that three years ago. The thing about these three games is, (0:04:48) Kelly: You just have to you have to restrain yourself. (0:04:57) Al: yeah, you’ve got to make sure that you’re not going over the top, but you’ve also got to think (0:05:00) Al: about how much time and fun you’ve gotten out of games. Like, you know, if I think about Pokemon Go, (0:05:04) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:05:07) Al: I have obviously, I’ve definitely put too much money into that. But also when I think about the (0:05:07) Kelly: Ah, yes. (0:05:11) Al: amount of time that I spend in that game. Like, I spend hours every single day. (0:05:16) Kelly: Oh, I was Pokemon go is probably my highest. Yeah (0:05:17) Al: For eight, for nine years now. (0:05:22) Kelly: Like I don’t and I I I go back and forth on playing it but that game has (0:05:27) Kelly: That’s my most played game because of that (0:05:28) Al: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, ever. Yeah, that don’t think is… (0:05:31) Kelly: Like it beat my Sims like legacy of like, you know playing that from like 10 years old or whatever (0:05:38) Al: I think the thing is that because it’s so accessible, but also because you’re playing (0:05:41) Kelly: It’s so accessible it’s in your hand (0:05:45) Al: it for so many years, even if you only played half an hour every day after 10 years, which (0:05:47) Kelly: Mm-hmm. Yes, exactly (0:05:54) Al: in a year and a bit, it’ll be 10 years since the game came out, if you’ve only played half (0:05:58) Kelly: That’s disgusting, don’t say that. (0:06:05) Al: an error, but you do it every single day for the for the for. (0:06:08) Al: 10 years, that is nearly 2000 hours. That’s the thing, the (0:06:12) Kelly: that’s insane but yeah no it’s it’s true yeah exactly but yeah it’s so it’s like (0:06:15) Al: numbers just add up so fast. And let me tell you, it’s way more (0:06:20) Al: than half an hour I’ve played every single day. (0:06:20) Kelly: okay yeah yeah and it’s like okay so like if I put some money in it every (0:06:26) Kelly: year like I’m getting so much out of it you know and I played love Nikki which (0:06:31) Kelly: is what is the phone game before like there’s been other phone games before (0:06:36) Kelly: this too but that was the one I got really into which is different like (0:06:40) Kelly: setup wise, but essentially it’s just an outfit game again. (0:06:42) Kelly: Gotcha outfit game and again, it’s like okay. I played that game for like four years. I put some money into it (0:06:49) Kelly: But I played it a lot like I spent so much time playing that game (0:06:52) Al: Yeah, as long as you can afford what you’re doing, that’s the important thing. (0:06:56) Kelly: Exactly, but yeah, what have you been up to? (0:07:00) Al: I have been procrastinating playing Grimoire Crows. (0:07:06) Al: Every so often, I end up in this situation where I’m like, this is a game that I need to play, (0:07:11) Al: and then I end up not playing it very much. And instead of procrastinating by playing other games, (0:07:17) Al: I procrastinate by doing other things instead. So I’ve not really done much this week at all. (0:07:20) Kelly: Yep. (0:07:23) Al: I have started a shiny hunt for Regigigas in Pokémon Sword. I’m at the point where I need to (0:07:38) Al: actually get through the rest of the legendaries. I don’t have a shiny if I want to finish my (0:07:43) Al: living decks, because I’m 110 left. And so I’m going to run out of non-legendaries very soon. (0:07:48) Kelly: Oh, my god. (0:07:52) Al: And so I thought, let’s start this one, because I can’t just… Yeah, exactly. (0:07:55) Kelly: Start breaking it up. (0:07:58) Kelly: Yeah, no, I understand that. (0:08:00) Kelly: I used to do that with Angry Birds. (0:08:04) Al: You’re going to have to explain that. (0:08:10) Kelly: Since Angry Birds came out, any phone that I get, (0:08:13) Kelly: I download Angry Birds and beat the whole game again. (0:08:15) Al: You replay it all again, oh my word! (0:08:16) Kelly: 3 stars? (0:08:18) Kelly: I’m less about it now, I just kinda go back to it when I’m bored. So like, you know, I have my phone for a while, eventually I get all the stars. But there’s certain levels that even after all these years of replaying it, they’re just difficult. And they piss me off. So I’ll break it down. (0:08:25) Al: look it’s fun it’s a fun game but I can’t say i’ve played it in the last 15 years (0:08:48) Kelly: I always break those up when I go back to get the 3 stars for them. So it’s the same thing where it’s like, I don’t want to do the really tough thing repeatedly and then just get frustrated at the game. Like it’s boring, you know? It gets boring. (0:08:56) Al: Fair enough. My 15 years might have been a bit of an exaggeration, however it is only (0:09:04) Al: 15 years since it’s 15 years since the first game came out. I can’t believe it’s been 15 years, (0:09:06) Kelly: Yes, yes, because I played it on the first iPhone I had, or an only iPhone. (0:09:09) Al: that’s wild. It was it was definitely it was one of the it was one of the early games that made you (0:09:20) Al: go ’this is why I want a touchscreen’ and it was that and (0:09:22) Kelly: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. (0:09:26) Al: Fruit Ninja and Digital Jump. Those were like the three that made me realize I get it, (0:09:27) Kelly: Yes, I never got into Fruit Ninja. (0:09:36) Al: I would like a touchscreen please. (0:09:38) Kelly: Yep. Well, that was the thrill of like, you know, with the iPhone too. It was like, oh, this is so sick. I can, I can play these fun games. I can do this for a peggle. (0:09:48) Kelly: I played peggle so much on that phone. It’s pinball. (0:09:52) Al: Okay, no, I didn’t. I didn’t play that one. I don’t think I need more games. (0:09:54) Kelly: Oh, you should look it up. I think you like peggle. (0:10:03) Al: Yeah, fun. All right. I think that’s all. Is that all I’ve got to talk about? I’m shiny (0:10:09) Al: hunting. I think so. I played… You were the one that you were you were spying me on steam. (0:10:16) Al: Was it like half an hour I played of Grimoire Groves or something? (0:10:16) Kelly: Oh, yeah, I was watching you all week because every time I’d sign on to the Steam, it’s (0:10:22) Kelly: like you’re the only person I know that has the game also. (0:10:22) Al: Oh, I’ve got an hour and 20 minutes apparently on steam there. Okay. That was yesterday. (0:10:26) Kelly: So for like the whole week, it was like 12 minutes playing. (0:10:30) Kelly: Yes, now, I see it now, but I was like watching it. (0:10:37) Kelly: I know because like two days ago, I was like, he’s still, he is cutting it close. (0:10:43) Al: Look, well, the problem was you messaged me and you said, “I’m loving this game. I’m (0:10:48) Al: played it so much.” And I’m like, “Okay, cool. I don’t need to then.” (0:10:52) Al: Yeah. No, I legitimately think that’s all I’ve (0:10:53) Kelly: Also, I’m the problem. (0:11:02) Al: done this week is like shiny hunting and Pokémon Go. (0:11:05) Kelly: sometimes it’s like you just get that mental block where you just can’t (0:11:08) Al: Yeah. Oh, I did do… I know. I did do the the Scarlet and Violet Quack Quack Quack Quaville (0:11:09) Kelly: even you’re just like oh I gotta I gotta do this but I can’t (0:11:20) Al: raids. I don’t think I’ve ever figured out how to say the name of that. (0:11:21) Kelly: What? What is that? I actually did not play Scarlet and Violet. (0:11:22) Al: Pokémon. Did you not? Um, it’s the, uh, it’s based on like carnival dancers. Uh, let me send you. (0:11:36) Kelly: Okay (0:11:38) Kelly: But like what is it you do the dancing like you (0:11:40) Al: It’s a Pokémon. Oh, no, no, just like a raid, like a normal Pokémon raid. (0:11:45) Kelly: Oh, but it’s like dressed up like a carnival dancer (0:11:49) Al: No, no, clearly you completely misunderstood this. This is just a Pokémon. (0:11:51) Kelly: Okay (0:11:52) Al: A Pokémon that is based on a carnival dancer. That’s the Pokémon, (0:11:57) Kelly: Oh, but that’s what you’re waiting for (0:11:57) Al: but they’ve done, there’s a raid to defeat it and capture it, yes. (0:12:01) Kelly: Okay, okay, I’m sorry. I thought this was like a costume Pokemon. You know what I mean? (0:12:05) Al: Oh, no, it’s not. They’ve not done that in the main games yet. Um, yeah, that’s it. (0:12:06) Kelly: Okay (0:12:12) Al: That’s the entirety of that. It was a raid. I did it. There we go. Done. Uh, (0:12:17) Al: should we talk about some news? Because the section is being a little bit of a disaster. (0:12:21) Al: Um… (0:12:23) Al: So, first up, the moment you’ve all been waiting for, we have some news on Harvest Moon, (0:12:30) Al: The Lost Valley, and Skytree Village, the ports or remasters, however they want to call them, (0:12:38) Al: for Switch, which for some reason they’ve decided to do, is up for pre-order now. (0:12:44) Al: It is $40 for the two of them, which still feels like too much, but (0:12:51) Al: I feel like it says a lot. (0:12:52) Al: When they’re selling two full games that they originally sold individually on separate consoles, (0:12:59) Al: and they’ve ported them both to the Switch, and they’re selling them both together for $40. (0:13:03) Al: That shows you how much people definitely want to buy these games. (0:13:07) Kelly: Yeah, cuz a lot of these remakes are like still a full 60 dollars alone. Yeah (0:13:11) Al: Exactly. The good ones are. (0:13:15) Al: So it’s coming out in June. Previously, we just knew it was coming out in the summer. (0:13:19) Al: We don’t have an exact date as far as I can see, just says June. (0:13:23) Al: And if you pre-order it now, you get a free acrylic standee (0:13:27) Al: with some of the worst art I’ve seen for a Harvestmen game ever. (0:13:31) Kelly: I can tell you really like this one. (0:13:33) Al: I haven’t even played these games, but I know for a fact they’re bad (0:13:36) Al: because I talked to Rachelle about them and they did not like them and yeah. (0:13:39) Kelly: I can never remember which ones are bad but the art for this one does not look good. (0:13:47) Al: These were I think the first two they did after the split between Harvestmen and (0:13:53) Al: so these were the first ones that weren’t by the original team. (0:13:56) Al: They were by Natsume and let’s just say they hadn’t made any games before and you can tell. (0:14:08) Al: I do, I will, I’m so strongly of the opinion that I think that people sometimes are judging (0:14:17) Al: Harvestmen too harshly purely because they’re angry that they kept the name and didn’t give (0:14:23) Al: back but that’s how these things work and I’m sorry you dislike that but I think if you actually (0:14:29) Al: played some of the newer games they’re not as bad as you think but these ones I’m pretty sure are. (0:14:37) Kelly: - Fair enough, I think that’s a fair point. (0:14:40) Al: The way I described it in the last episode I did with Micah is (0:14:43) Al: they are so close to having a good game. (0:14:47) Kelly: Oh, with the new ones. (0:14:48) Al: Yeah, they’re so close. So close. (0:14:51) Kelly: Maybe next– maybe next game, they’ll hit it. (0:14:52) Al: what we said for three games now. Each game they do is better than the last. Yes, but (0:15:00) Kelly: OK, so they’re growing slowly. (0:15:02) Al: they do still make some bizarre decisions in those games. They’ve also released a whole (0:15:07) Al: bunch of screenshots. And yeah, I mean, they basically look like the original games did, (0:15:13) Al: but with, I guess, more pixels, but not more pixels on the actual models, just more pixels. (0:15:20) Al: So it’s like– (0:15:20) Kelly: No, they look like knees, but like with a little bit better quality. (0:15:22) Al: Yeah, yeah, that’s exact. It looks better quality, but not in a good way. (0:15:30) Kelly: No. (0:15:31) Al: It looks like HD kind of, but it’s like you’ve got HD upscaled basically, right? (0:15:39) Al: Like you were recording on a really old camera and you’ve upscaled it to HD, (0:15:43) Al: so it’s like everything is shiny and lots of pixels, but it still doesn’t look good. (0:15:52) Kelly: - Yeah, no, it’s not right. (0:15:53) Al: These were a DS and a 3DS game, I think, originally, so they have had to merge the two screens. (0:16:02) Al: However, I think the bottom screen was mostly just like for the map, (0:16:06) Al: and so they now have a mini map on the screen, so… (0:16:09) Kelly: Okay, I feel like a lot of games like this have like the map or like controls or something at the bottom (0:16:14) Al: Yeah, yeah, so I guess we’ll see. (0:16:19) Al: I don’t, I’m gonna buy this. (0:16:22) Kelly: I like, did you notice that it’s so you said it’s releasing in June, but then at the top (0:16:23) Al: I’m gonna do my duty for the podcast, you’re welcome. (0:16:33) Kelly: it says ships in April to June. (0:16:36) Al: Yeah, if you scroll down to the product description, it says release date June 2025. (0:16:41) Kelly: interesting so this game is worth that $25 basically (0:16:43) Al: Apparently, the acrylic standee is worth $13. (0:16:48) Al: So yeah, well, I don’t know what to say. You probably shouldn’t buy this. (0:17:02) Al: But I will. Next, we have Bugaboo Pocket. (0:17:07) Al: Have announced that the release date is on the 2nd of April. I don’t know if you’ve (0:17:11) Al: seen this game, Kelly. It’s a bug game. It’s like a bug Pokémon, but like on… (0:17:12) Kelly: I have not. What is this? (0:17:20) Al: How do I describe this? It’s like virtual pets. So like Tamagotchis. (0:17:24) Kelly: Oh, okay, I see it now. Now I got the screen page, but it’s got like way more details. (0:17:30) Al: Yes, yeah, it’s very much like modernized in terms of how you would interact. (0:17:37) Al: Quality of graphics and is much more intense from that sort of aspect of things. (0:17:43) Al: But I think you also can, for lack of a better phrase, because I’m very tired. (0:17:51) Al: It’s the end of the weekend. Do science on them. I don’t know how to describe it. (0:17:57) Kelly: Like, experiments? (0:17:58) Al: No experiment. No, that would be immoral. No, inspect them and look at them. (0:18:06) Kelly: Oh, OK. (0:18:07) Al: There is like if you have… (0:18:09) Kelly: Oh, and pin them. (0:18:10) Kelly: It looks like you can pin them. (0:18:11) Al: Yeah, but those are dead. Like you’re not pinning a live one, right? (0:18:13) Kelly: Yeah, that would be immoral also. (0:18:18) Kelly: I hope so. (0:18:19) Kelly: I’m just looking at pictures. (0:18:22) Al: So yeah, it’s much more involved than a Tamagotchi. (0:18:28) Kelly: The graphics look really cool. (0:18:30) Al: Yeah, Cody is excited to play this. (0:18:33) Kelly: I’m sure that makes sense. (0:18:36) Kelly: This looks really cool, honestly. (0:18:37) Al: Anyway, coming on the 2nd of April. Next, we have the Fields of Mistria 2nd update. (0:18:45) Al: It’s out now, Kelly. Have you played it yet? (0:18:48) Kelly: Not since, uh, November, end of November, since we talked. (0:18:54) Al: Yeah, that was just the first update that was then, so. (0:18:56) Kelly: Yeah, ‘cause I had finished everything that you could possibly do at that point, (0:19:00) Kelly: and I was like, “Okay, I gotta, I don’t wanna kill the game for myself.” (0:19:00) Al: Yep. (0:19:04) Al: We were on the same page at that point, right? Basically, I think we’d both done everything you could do in the game and didn’t want to destroy our enthusiasm for the game. But does that mean you’re definitely not going to get jump into the game with this new update? (0:19:13) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:19:20) Kelly: I’m probably going to wait. (0:19:23) Kelly: I mean, I started breeding for different color animals (0:19:27) Kelly: and stuff, like the tears. (0:19:28) Kelly: So I had been failing my time with that, (0:19:30) Kelly: but mostly because I didn’t have a new game. (0:19:34) Kelly: But yeah, I’m going to wait and see. (0:19:35) Kelly: I got games coming out soon. (0:19:37) Kelly: We got “Rethopia.” (0:19:38) Al: Yes, oh, yes, that’s that (0:19:41) Kelly: I got a solid amount of games currently. (0:19:43) Kelly: So I gotta actually, like, focus on them. (0:19:46) Al: That’s fair. We’ve already covered what’s out in this update, so let’s not spend too long on it. (0:19:50) Kelly: Mm-hmm, okay. (0:19:50) Al: Next we have Gogotown. Their next update Spring Cleaning is out now. I presume you haven’t played (0:19:59) Al: this game. It is fun. It definitely feels very polished for the way that I talked about it in (0:20:07) Al: the episode I did on it. It’s very polished what is there, but it feels like it’s a long way to go (0:20:13) Al: to feel complete. (0:20:15) Kelly: Okay, that’s fair. I mean it seems very ambitious looking so hopefully they just get there (0:20:16) Al: Yeah, a number of things in this update, you can now store a tool and a vehicle on (0:20:29) Al: yourself, it says in a patented Townco dimensional pocket. Basically, you had vehicles, but you (0:20:36) Al: had to like park them somewhere. So now you can keep one of them on yourself. So you have (0:20:40) Al: to keep running back to the parking spaces, which is a nice update. There’s also (0:20:46) Al: a Town info app that gives you a bunch of information on the Town. 360 degree camera (0:20:52) Al: rotation, which is good. I like this. Oh yes, what was that? You’ve asked for it. We’ve (0:20:56) Kelly: I like their note on this. (0:21:00) Al: put in an experimental setting for you to rotate the camera 360 degrees. Fair enough. (0:21:05) Kelly: The screenshot is definitely making me dizzy though, looking at it too long. (0:21:07) Al: Yes, you can definitely tell us experimental. There’s some things that move out of view when (0:21:13) Al: when they shouldn’t do and stuff like that. (0:21:17) Al: A work in progress. (0:21:17) Kelly: But I mean like they they they put it out there that it’s experimental so. (0:21:20) Al: Yep, yep, and they’ve also added (0:21:23) Al: infinite seeds for your farming, which I am intrigued by because I thought (0:21:28) Al: when you planted a seed, the plant never never seemed to die. (0:21:33) Al: It just seemed to always grow new stuff. (0:21:35) Al: So you essentially had infinite stuff, right? (0:21:38) Al: Because as soon as you had a seed, you just (0:21:39) Al: planted it and you had that plant forever. (0:21:40) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:21:41) Al: But maybe I’m misremembering. (0:21:44) Kelly: Maybe they changed it. (0:21:46) Al: updates as well. But yeah, those are the main ones that I noticed. (0:21:49) Al: Next, we have Sunhaven have released their 2.0 update. (0:21:53) Al: And you’re like, oh, 2.0, that sounds like it might be a big update. (0:21:57) Al: It’s festivals. (0:22:00) Al: It doesn’t particularly feel huge. (0:22:02) Al: I’m intrigued as to why they decided to go for 2.0 at this point. (0:22:06) Al: OK. (0:22:10) Al: It adds a furniture festival, a garden (0:22:12) Al: festival, a pet festival, a mushroom festival, a snow festival. (0:22:16) Al: And a bunch of other (0:22:19) Al: furniture and stuff like that related to that. (0:22:22) Kelly: Okay, interesting how much of the game is actually out? (0:22:26) Al: Well, it’s no longer in early access. (0:22:28) Al: So I feel like I think they might have I feel like they’ve done everything that (0:22:32) Al: they said in the Kickstarter, like it’s the story is done and stuff like that. (0:22:38) Al: When I see people talking in the comments, they’re no longer complaining about things (0:22:43) Al: they’re talking about translations being bad. (0:22:49) Kelly: Yeah, this one’s been on my wish list, (0:22:50) Kelly: so I’ve been just waiting to see. (0:22:54) Al: I think I own it, yes, I do. (0:22:56) Al: I kick-started this one, I just haven’t played it yet. (0:22:59) Al: So this came out initially in 2023. (0:23:03) Al: Or was that, no, that was the 1.0, I think. (0:23:06) Al: Yeah, 2021 is when it first came out. (0:23:08) Al: And this was when I was still well and truly (0:23:11) Al: primarily Switch, but it wasn’t on Switch yet. (0:23:15) Al: And then I got a Steam Deck, (0:23:16) Al: and then suddenly I was very much on the Steam Deck, (0:23:18) Al: except for games that weren’t on the Steam Deck. (0:23:21) Al: but I had kind of really moved the path. (0:23:24) Al: I’m just thinking about this game, because it was, you know, it had been like two years or something since it started. (0:23:32) Al: Sometimes I do think that there is like a time period where if you’re not going to play a game (0:23:36) Al: within that time period, you’re probably never going to get to it. (0:23:38) Kelly: Yeah, no, definitely it definitely gets harder and harder to go back to it (0:23:44) Al: So maybe I’ll get to it one day, who knows, there’s so many games. (0:23:48) Al: Next we have farm folks or, as it is now called, (0:23:54) Al: Autonomica? Good job, going from a game name that was just slightly awkward to say to one that I don’t know how to pronounce. (0:24:02) Al: Autonomica? Auto… Autonomica. (0:24:04) Kelly: Oh, Tom, oh, oh, Tom, I don’t know, I don’t know. (0:24:08) Al: Autonomica. That’s what you were trying to say, wasn’t it? Autonomica. (0:24:13) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, something like that. (0:24:14) Al: No, I don’t think it’s Autonomica. (0:24:18) Kelly: I don’t think it is either, (0:24:19) Kelly: but I was just trying to see if I could say it. (0:24:20) Kelly: And apparently I can’t. (0:24:24) Al: For those who don’t know the story behind this game, it was started as farm folks, and then the company that was making it went bust. (0:24:32) Al: And then another company basically, I don’t know whether they bought the company that went bust or whether they bought the rights to the game and the code and stuff, (0:24:40) Al: but they continued development. So the company that’s making this is not the company that did the Kickstarter for this game. (0:24:46) Al: Although I’m pretty sure I saw somewhere that they are going to honor the Kickstarter, which is always good. (0:24:52) Al: Um, don’t take– (0:24:52) Kelly: nice isn’t there another game with like a similar ish name to this new name but (0:24:54) Al: I’d need to confirm that, but I feel like I saw that somewhere. (0:25:05) Kelly: also like how do you go from farm folks which is like the most generic farm game (0:25:08) Al: Yeah. (0:25:10) Kelly: name I’ve ever heard now which is not saying a lot because a lot of these farm (0:25:14) Kelly: games have a lot of similar names it is but how do you go from that to what do (0:25:16) Al: Naming is hard, all right. (0:25:20) Kelly: What are you calling it? Autonomica? (0:25:22) Kelly: Autonomica. Oh, it’s a musical artist. Yes, I knew I’d seen this name somewhere before. (0:25:24) Al: Autonomica. Autonomica? (0:25:30) Al: Oh. (0:25:36) Al: So they’ve made they have went the new (0:25:38) Al: company that took over the game have basically been moving it in a different direction. (0:25:43) Al: So it’s it is still farming. (0:25:46) Kelly: It looks like Fortnite with Farfian. (0:25:46) Al: It’s not. (0:25:49) Al: Yeah, they’ve never really explained their reasoning, but they’re like, it’s not just farming. (0:25:53) Al: It’s so much more than that. (0:25:55) Al: So therefore we think farm folks is a misleading name and I’m like, OK, but I don’t. (0:25:58) Kelly: Okay. That makes more sense. But I don’t get anything about farming from this name. (0:26:04) Al: No, but you do get the automation part of it, which I think they’re really big enough. (0:26:09) Al: The college so that their new blurb on steam is Autonomica is an open world life simulator (0:26:16) Al: game that seamlessly. Oh, my word, I hate this so much seamlessly merges resource (0:26:22) Al: management and automation with farm building, extensive customization, (0:26:26) Al: PvP slash PvE battles and elusive phantoms. What is this jumble of words? (0:26:34) Al: Play solo or with friends to build your mega farm factory with almost no limits. (0:26:38) Al: It is a farming game. It’s just like a industrial scale farming game. (0:26:44) Al: Right. And I get why they wanted to change. (0:26:48) Al: Why they wanted it to be clear that this was not the same game that they took over. (0:26:52) Al: But also it is farming game. (0:26:57) Al: Like you can’t say it’s not a farming game. It is a farming game. (0:27:01) Al: Build your mega farm factory, they say in the new blurb. (0:27:04) Al: Like I don’t understand the issue with it. (0:27:06) Kelly: All of these screenshots, too, are just like, what is that game? (0:27:09) Al: Yes, Factorio. Yeah. (0:27:11) Kelly: Factorio? (0:27:14) Kelly: It’s like that, but with farming more. (0:27:16) Al: Open world 3D Factorio. (0:27:20) Al: Which I honestly am excited by. I think this game could be really good. (0:27:25) Al: I just don’t understand why they really didn’t like the name and they decided to change. (0:27:29) Al: But I don’t think this is a better name. (0:27:32) Al: That’s all I’m going to say. I get why they didn’t like the old game. (0:27:35) Al: Old name. I’m not sure this is better. (0:27:37) Kelly: Honestly, they can take this if they want to, but I think it should have been (0:27:44) Kelly: auto-pharmica, if anything. (0:27:46) Al: I would, yeah, I would certainly be more better. Yeah, I don’t disagree with you. (0:27:49) Kelly: It would be better than this. (0:27:54) Kelly: I would assume that this is some sort of space or underwater survival game (0:28:02) Al: Oh, interesting. Yeah. Anyway, they changed the name. RIP farm folks. Long live farm folks. (0:28:03) Kelly: just going off the name alone. (0:28:08) Kelly: It’s so weird too, because I don’t even like farm books. (0:28:14) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:28:18) Kelly: I digress. (0:28:19) Al: Coral Island have announced their 2025 roadmap. They have 1.2 planned to come out in the first (0:28:27) Al: half of the year, bringing multiplayer and revamped romance. (0:28:32) Al: Which I was looking at what they say about the romance. So let’s talk about the multiplayer (0:28:37) Al: first. There’s probably not a huge amount to say. Basically, it looks like it’s stardew (0:28:41) Al: style multiplayer. You’re all multiple people on the farm. Great, fine. I’m sure it will be (0:28:46) Al: great for people who love. I am not particularly interested just because I don’t want to actually (0:28:51) Al: play my games with other people. I like these games because I’m playing them on my own. (0:28:52) Kelly: I have no desire, I have no desire to play these. These types of games are for me to play by myself, so I can be a maniac, like, let me be a psychopath by my- (0:28:59) Al: Exactly. Exactly. (0:29:03) Al: I have tried so many times to play multiplayer Stardew, and I just can’t because I have to be (0:29:08) Kelly: Oh, no. No, no, no. (0:29:10) Al: the one who has this. The problem is, right? You have to organize to play at the same time, (0:29:16) Al: and that is just not fun. Organizing times for these. (0:29:16) Kelly: No, because either you’re micromanaging all of it, too. (0:29:25) Kelly: It’s like, how do you organize the time to play together and also organize how you’re (0:29:30) Kelly: playing together? (0:29:32) Al: Yeah, the best way to do that is just be like, right, you do the farming you do the mine, there you go, go, go do your jobs. (0:29:32) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:29:38) Al: And yeah, I don’t, I don’t particularly find it fun, I get why people might. And so if you are excited about Coral Island multiplayer. (0:29:46) Al: There you go, it’s coming. I hope you enjoy it. I’m not going to do this. (0:29:48) Kelly: I think the only multiplayer game I like is Monster Hunter, to be quite honest. (0:29:58) Al: So I was also looking at the romance revamp that they’ve got. (0:30:02) Al: And I think the only difference is, so there’s a bunch of heart events that existed already. (0:30:10) Al: And it looks like you have to see the previous heart events to unlock certain, to unlock (0:30:17) Al: more hearts. (0:30:18) Al: So once you get to five hearts, you have to watch the heart events for them before you (0:30:24) Al: can do heart six to eight. (0:30:26) Al: And then you have to watch another heart event and give a locket. (0:30:32) Al: Before you can start dating and do the next two hearts, which then you have to watch the (0:30:37) Al: other events and propose before you can get married and do the other five. (0:30:43) Al: I do think this is better because what I found when I was doing this, because I got married (0:30:49) Al: in Coral Island, is I had no clue that there were heart events still to do, which is probably (0:30:55) Al: still going to be a problem here, but let’s put that aside for a minute. (0:30:59) Kelly: There’s no like there’s no like heart marker next in like the (0:31:02) Al: So there are hearts, but it’s not like, it’s just like how many hearts you have. (0:31:09) Al: Like there was no like indication that there’s an event you should be doing. (0:31:12) Al: So like I got to 10 hearts and then I went and tried to propose and they were like, oh, (0:31:17) Al: I’m not ready yet. (0:31:18) Al: And I’m like, but this is the point where I meant to be able to propose. (0:31:20) Al: Why can’t I do it? (0:31:22) Al: And I googled and it was like, oh, because you’re missing heart events. (0:31:24) Al: And I hadn’t done any of the heart events. (0:31:27) Al: And I don’t know how it happens in Carta Island, but in Stardew, (0:31:29) Kelly: How– so I was going to say, it’s similarly set up, (0:31:32) Al: I was always finding the heart events. (0:31:37) Kelly: like you just trigger the event when you encounter them (0:31:40) Al: Yes, and there are a few heart events in Stardew that were very niche and you (0:31:41) Kelly: in a certain location. (0:31:46) Al: wouldn’t immediately find, but like by that point, you’re like, oh, (0:31:51) Al: I know that these things are coming, so I should be expecting them. (0:31:53) Al: I hadn’t done a single one in Carta Island. (0:31:56) Al: How had I not triggered any of the heart events? (0:31:59) Kelly: Yeah, that’s crazy. That doesn’t seem like a good sub. (0:32:00) Al: It was very confusing. (0:32:02) Al: And also, I don’t think the heart events are required in Stardew for marriage. (0:32:10) Kelly: I don’t think they are either. I think they’re just, like, for you. (0:32:12) Al: Yes, and you can get extra points by doing them. (0:32:16) Al: And they’re nice, and you want to know about the story because all the characters are good characters. (0:32:16) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:32:22) Al: I was going to say great, but no, not all the characters are great. (0:32:22) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:32:24) Al: All of them are good characters. (0:32:28) Al: Um, but yeah, I just, it was really, so if they have a. (0:32:32) Al: Way to make it clear. (0:32:34) Al: That you’re now expecting to see events, then that would be good. (0:32:38) Al: Um, I don’t know. (0:32:40) Al: Um, we’ll see, I guess they don’t talk about that. (0:32:44) Al: I don’t think, but it’s interesting restricting it that much. (0:32:48) Al: So you, you have to see the events before you can continue your heart progress. (0:32:53) Al: Uh, I don’t know how I feel about that. (0:32:55) Kelly: Yeah, that seems kind of iffy the way you just described your past experience, so I guess we’ll see. (0:33:00) Al: Aha, the revamped romance system unlocks at heart level two and you’ll see a prompt (0:33:05) Al: in the relationship UI whenever a hangout event is available. (0:33:10) Al: That is good. (0:33:11) Al: It’s now making it clear when you can do something and when there’s something to do. (0:33:15) Al: That is good. (0:33:16) Al: And if you click on them inside the menu and it shows like all the stuff that you’ve done (0:33:22) Al: with them, you know, the stuff you’ve learned that they love and stuff like that, and like (0:33:25) Al: there, the birthday and stuff, it says unlock requirement, see hangout event. (0:33:30) Al: I don’t know what happened to three but anyway, whatever. (0:33:37) Al: I think that means for heart two and for heart four. (0:33:41) Al: That’s what I think it’s talking about. (0:33:43) Al: So they are definitely making it much more visible, that aspect of things. (0:33:47) Al: So that is good. (0:33:48) Al: They’re also adding more heart events for after marriage, which is also good because (0:33:52) Al: one of the things I’ve really complained about Carl Island is that your spouse ends up turning (0:33:55) Al: into a hollow husk after you get married. (0:33:58) Kelly: That’s pretty sad. (0:34:01) Al: - It was so sad. (0:34:02) Al: The minute you got married, (0:34:05) Al: they just stand in your house all day doing nothing. (0:34:07) Kelly: Oh no. (0:34:09) Al: It was the worst. (0:34:09) Al: I’ve taken your life (0:34:11) Al: and you are now just an ornament in my house. (0:34:15) Al: It was so sad. (0:34:16) Al: So hopefully that’s improved a lot with this. (0:34:20) Al: And then the 1.3 update will include your kids growing up. (0:34:27) Kelly: that’s cool that’s what I literally just started like wondering if it’s like generational like do (0:34:27) Al: And it is, I wonder how far it will go. (0:34:30) Al: I don’t know. (0:34:36) Al: I would expect not. (0:34:38) Al: I expect it would just be, oh, they grow up to be a teenager and then they stop sort of thing. (0:34:42) Al: That is my expectation. (0:34:44) Kelly: that makes sense because that’s a big that’s that’s a lot doing (0:34:44) Al: I don’t think they’ll go full hog. (0:34:49) Al: Especially as they could actually make it like real-time in-game, right? (0:34:52) Al: For every year, they are a year older. (0:34:54) Al: And so you would actually have to do 18 in-game years. (0:35:00) Al: Before your child is an adult. (0:35:04) Kelly: - Hmm. (0:35:05) Al: So they could just go, I’m sorry, if you’ve played 18 years in this game, you’ve played too much. (0:35:12) Al: But I mean, I don’t know, maybe it will work. (0:35:14) Al: I mean, I do know that some games where you have kids that grow up, (0:35:18) Al: you then die and you become your kid. (0:35:20) Al: They could do something like that. (0:35:22) Kelly: That’s true, that would be cool. (0:35:23) Al: And then you inherit the farm and, you know, 20% of it is taken in tax. (0:35:31) Al: Yeah, so they’ve not got a huge amount of information in the 1.3. (0:35:35) Al: They also said there’s going to be a Merfolk festival. (0:35:39) Al: But they’ve not got any details on how the kids grow up. (0:35:42) Al: But that is coming in the second half of this year. (0:35:44) Al: Have you played, you’ve not played Coral Island? (0:35:46) Kelly: No. I really try to avoid early access. (0:35:47) Al: No. (0:35:50) Al: Well, it’s not early access anymore. (0:35:51) Kelly: Uh, oh, it’s out, out? (0:35:53) Al: Yeah. (0:35:54) Al: The 1.0 came out just over a year ago. (0:35:58) Kelly: Okay, I must have missed that. (0:35:58) Al: and then they go and they go on. (0:36:00) Kelly: I thought it was still in early access, still. Okay. (0:36:00) Al: 1.1 sometime last year? No. The 1.0 was technically not early access, but realistically (0:36:06) Al: was early access. The 1.1 feels like what the 1.0 should have been, but the multiplayer (0:36:12) Al: was always coming after early access. So I don’t feel like you would be missing out if (0:36:17) Al: you played now compared to if you played two years ago, you definitely were missing out (0:36:22) Al: in a lot. (0:36:22) Kelly: Okay, okay, maybe one day (0:36:24) Al: All right. And we also, we all maybe, maybe, probably not. We also have (0:36:30) Al: a new game by the developers of EverDream Valley. In fact, this is a sequel to EverDream (0:36:36) Al: Valley called EverDream Village. I get what they’re doing with that name, but also I am (0:36:42) Al: going to constantly mess up. Which one is which? They also feel the wrong way around, (0:36:47) Kelly: The valley and village is like too close to each other. (0:36:53) Al: you start in a village and then you go out to a valley. (0:36:53) Kelly: Yes, it should have been, this should be a prequel. (0:36:57) Kelly: Yeah, this is the prequel in my, (0:36:59) Kelly: I literally thought like this should be the prequel (0:37:00) Al: Set 10 years after the events of EverDream Valley, EverDream Village brings a whole (0:37:07) Al: new chapter with living, breathing village and a world beyond your farm. Now you’re built, (0:37:13) Al: this is the thing. It’s like the problem was EverDream Valley wasn’t really a valley. It (0:37:17) Al: was EverDream Farm. Right. And if it was that way, it was EverDream Farm and then EverDream (0:37:21) Al: Village. That makes more logical sense to be our expansion on that. Right. You’ll build (0:37:22) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:37:28) Al: relationships explore mysterious islands. (0:37:30) Al: The Valley may have been home but it’s time to explore a world full of new adventures, (0:37:44) Kelly: - Yeah, it doesn’t seem right, there’s something off. (0:37:57) Al: NPCs and endless possibilities. I don’t really get whirled and (0:38:00) Al: abilities from village. I know what they mean. I know what they (0:38:02) Kelly: - No, but I think they just mean the world of Everdream. (0:38:08) Al: mean. I know what they mean. Build your ideal cozy farm in a (0:38:12) Al: living village. Form bonds with fellow villagers to lend a hand (0:38:16) Al: as you grow crops, care for animals and craft a corner of (0:38:18) Al: paradise. Sail across enchanted islands to discover new resources (0:38:22) Al: and adventures along the way. Maybe it’s definitely not a (0:38:25) Kelly: Maybe there is a world. (0:38:28) Al: village. (0:38:31) Al: Anyway, I mean, you can ride a pig in Evergreen Valley, so they hopefully have something like that in this game. (0:38:36) Kelly: I’m looking at that right now. (0:38:38) Kelly: That actually looks really cute. (0:38:39) Kelly: That’s a good feature. (0:38:40) Al: I haven’t played this game. It’s been on my list for forever. (0:38:44) Kelly: The first one. (0:38:45) Al: Yes, well, the second one is now yet, so of course I’ve not played that. (0:38:48) Kelly: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:38:50) Al: It’s just coming soon. They’ve not said when, it’s coming just soon. (0:38:54) Kelly: One day. (0:38:54) Al: One day. All right. (0:38:56) Kelly: Do you see this tag at the bottom on their news updates? (0:39:00) Al: The second one is that in the Evergreen Valley page? (0:39:04) Kelly: On the Steam page, yeah. (0:39:07) Al: Where am I looking? Where am I looking? (0:39:07) Kelly: I guess this is who they base the pig off of. (0:39:11) Kelly: Let me send it to you. (0:39:12) Kelly: I’ll just send it to you. (0:39:12) Al: There’s too many pages here. That’s the problem. (0:39:13) Kelly: I would do that. (0:39:15) Kelly: It really is. (0:39:15) Al: On their news. Oh, happy birthday, Peter Curleytail. (0:39:18) Kelly: Recent events, yes. (0:39:20) Al: I don’t know what to say. That is quite a pig. (0:39:24) Kelly: He’s a little frightening, but kind of cute. (0:39:26) Al: Yes, that is quite the pig. (0:39:29) Kelly: But I like the interpretation of him. (0:39:31) Al: Yeah, I like the name Peter Curleytail. (0:39:35) Kelly: Yeah, I. (0:39:36) Kelly: I’ve never seen a pig like that before, so it’s a little haunting. (0:39:42) Al: All right, that’s us done with the news. (0:39:44) Al: We are now going to talk about grimoire, grimoire. Is it grimoire? (0:39:51) Al: Grimoire. Grimoire grows. And grimoire is something that’s a witch term, isn’t it? (0:39:59) Al: like what it what I keep hearing great (0:40:00) Kelly: Yeah it’s always like I feel like it’s like swamps and grimoires and uh no it’s um what (0:40:00) Al: memoirs and lots of these witchy games. (0:40:08) Al: That explains that because, right, okay. (0:40:10) Kelly: is it a grimoire is a the book it’s the book it’s like your book of spells that’s what it is. (0:40:17) Al: And the grove is the land that you’re doing (0:40:22) Al: because a grove is like a kind of forest type thing. (0:40:26) Kelly: Yeah, yeah. But no, it’s a little book that you… (0:40:28) Al: Okay, makes sense. (0:40:30) Kelly: have all your information in. (0:40:33) Al: So, a quick introduction to this game. (0:40:38) Al: It is described on Steam as join the witches in their quest to restore the grimoire groves, (0:40:45) Al: master magic, grow cute plant creatures, and discover the mystery of the rainbow socks (0:40:52) Al: in this cozy roguelite dungeon crawler. (0:40:55) Al: The way I would describe this in my whole one hour and 20 minutes playing it (0:40:59) Al: is it is kind of cult of the lamb, but without actual, without. (0:41:09) Al: Combat the way you interact in your runs is different. (0:41:13) Al: It’s not combat so much. (0:41:16) Al: And it’s less about building a village and more about restoring nature. (0:41:24) Al: Would that be a fair way of putting it? (0:41:26) Kelly: Yeah, I think so. It’s, it’s, it’s… (0:41:29) Kelly: But you still, I feel like I’m fighting. (0:41:31) Kelly: Maybe I feel less like I’m fighting and I’m more surviving. (0:41:31) Al: Yes, okay, so I mean, okay, you could make an argument that it is basically just fighting, (0:41:39) Al: but it’s it feels so you’re feeding the plants instead of fighting them, I think is how they (0:41:44) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, but no, I’m just I’m just being a jerk. I think it’s I think that’s a good. (0:41:44) Al: describe it. So that’s why I’ve been like is not. No, no, it’s, it’s, it’s fair in terms (0:41:50) Al: of game play is very similar to most other Roguelike action games. (0:41:51) Kelly: Yes, I also think it it has that. Yeah, yeah, it has that cuteness that I think (0:41:59) Kelly: cultural land kind of has, which is why I think like they remind me like like you said like it (0:42:04) Kelly: makes you think of them. You have the juxtaposition. Yeah, yeah. (0:42:06) Al: I think the cuteness works much better in Cult of the Lam (0:42:09) Al: because it’s… exactly, exactly. (0:42:12) Al: Whereas here, the whole world is cute. (0:42:14) Kelly: But I love the saturation in this game. So like that for me is like, and I loved Call to the Land. (0:42:21) Al: Okay, I will say the game looks lovely. (0:42:24) Al: It looks really nice. (0:42:25) Al: I do love how the game actually looks. (0:42:28) Al: The graphics, the design of the characters, (0:42:36) Al: and character, but also the plants and everything. (0:42:38) Al: I do like all of that. (0:42:39) Al: That is all nice. (0:42:41) Al: I will absolutely agree with that. (0:42:44) Al: Yes. (0:42:46) Kelly: I just think it’s like you don’t always, you don’t really get a lot of games that are like, (0:42:52) Kelly: it’s like saturated, but it’s also pastel, like there’s two different kind of colored (0:42:56) Kelly: tones going on in the game, which I think is interesting. (0:43:00) Kelly: Like the backgrounds are more saturated, but the creatures, the plants are a little more (0:43:04) Kelly: pastel leaning, but it’s so vibrant. (0:43:07) Kelly: Like a lot of games, they’re so dark a lot of the time or like aiming to be more realistic (0:43:11) Al: - Yeah. (0:43:13) Kelly: in their tones, I guess. (0:43:15) Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:43:16) Kelly: Yes, but yeah, no, I love all of the designs. (0:43:17) Al: No, you’re definitely right about that. (0:43:20) Al: You wouldn’t look at this and think it was something else. (0:43:20) Kelly: I love all the little plants. (0:43:23) Al: That’s very true. (0:43:23) Kelly: No, exactly. (0:43:26) Al: So I guess there’s two main parts to this game, (0:43:29) Al: and there’s obviously a lot of other things, (0:43:31) Al: lot of things that I won’t have done in the main area. (0:43:33) Al: But like most of these roguelites, (0:43:37) Al: you have your hub, (0:43:38) Al: which is an area that is run– (0:43:41) Al: was previously run by some other witch– (0:43:44) Al: I can’t remember her name, maybe– (0:43:45) Kelly: Is it lavender? (0:43:47) Kelly: I think so. (0:43:49) Al: and it’s been taken over by thorns, (0:43:53) Al: and it’s all dreary, and you are to restore it. (0:43:57) Al: That’s the main idea. (0:43:58) Kelly: You’re the young spry witch coming in to fix it. (0:43:59) Al: And you do that by classic cliche, (0:44:05) Al: but it’s there for a reason. (0:44:08) Al: and your runs that you do. (0:44:11) Al: I think of roguelites specifically talking about roguelites not roguelikes (0:44:22) Al: well let’s not have that debate again. I find there are two types there are ones where (0:44:31) Al: your hub the point of the hub is to improve your powers skills etc to then do the runs and the (0:44:38) Kelly: Mm-hmm. Yes, I was going to say, very– (0:44:41) Al: runs is the purpose of the game and that would be your like Hades stuff like that. (0:44:49) Al: And then there’s this type of thing this and Cult of the Lamb where your hub is the point of (0:44:55) Al: the game and the runs are to gather resources for doing things in your hub. (0:45:00) Kelly: I would say it’s kind of like a mix, I think, between Cult of the Lamb and Hades in that aspect. (0:45:07) Kelly: Because I do think Cult of the Lamb, there’s so much that you do in your hub area. (0:45:12) Kelly: And I don’t think this quite has near that amount of stuff. (0:45:16) Kelly: Like, you have a lot of updates and things you can interact with. (0:45:20) Kelly: I don’t want to spoil anything. (0:45:22) Kelly: But Cult of the Lamb, you could like run the village until you ran out of resources. (0:45:28) Al: I guess my point is like you’re not the run isn’t the like with Hades you are escaping hell (0:45:28) Kelly: like I spent like five minutes like you know up (0:45:31) Kelly: and then I got another run (0:45:37) Kelly: the sole purpose yes (0:45:40) Al: and your run is escaping hell and if you fail you go back to the hub world and you try again. (0:45:45) Al: Whereas in this and with Cult of the Lamb the point is the runs you’re doing to do (0:45:50) Al: things to bring back you’re never like disappearing and I think that’s that is very much (0:45:53) Kelly: No, that’s a fair point, yeah. (0:45:58) Al: why I liked Cult of the Lamb because I was building up this thing and I really hate the (0:46:05) Al: overall feeling of Hades where if you fail you fail and you’re back to the start and you have (0:46:09) Al: to start again and so I was really excited for this because I was like oh maybe this will be (0:46:15) Al: another one that I like because it’s that sort of style but I mean I guess I need to say at some (0:46:21) Al: point I didn’t like the combat in this game. I didn’t but I feel like (0:46:24) Kelly: Did you try it on easy mode? (0:46:27) Kelly: I d

Al and Kelly talk about Fields of Mistria Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:05:39: What Have We Been Up To 00:13:12: November Game Releases 00:15:25: Stardew Concert 00:27:34: Game News 00:40:41: New Games 00:51:38: Fields Of Mistria Links Stardew Valley Symphony of Seasons Sun Haven UK/Switzerland/NZ Switch Release Everdream Valley “Family Time” DLC Snacko “Builders Dream” Update Spiritea “Phantom Friends” Update Farlands 0.3 Update Ratopia Dreamland Farm Ooze Keeper Contact Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Al: Hello farmers, and welcome to another episode of the harvest season. My name is Al, (0:00:36) Kelly: And my name is Kelly. (0:00:37) Al: and we’re here today to talk about cartridge core games. (0:00:43) Al: Welcome back Kelly, how are you doing? (0:00:46) Kelly: Pretty good. Enjoying the long weekend. It’s been nice. (0:00:49) Kelly: It’s nice to be back, too. How have you been? (0:00:51) Al: Yes, yes, good, good, good. (0:00:54) Al: I’m, yeah, doing all right. Just, you know, I’m cramming in as many farming games as possible (0:00:58) Al: before the end of the year. (0:01:00) Al: My game of the year episode is as accurate as possible. (0:01:04) Al: So busy. (0:01:06) Kelly: - Good dedication, really dedicated. (0:01:08) Al: Yeah, I mean, I feel like I probably could have played half of these in the first half of the year, but, you know, procrastination. (0:01:13) Kelly: But yeah, where’s the fun without that? (0:01:18) Al: Yeah, this is when the ADHD kicks in and goes, “Oh, deadline, great!” (0:01:22) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, no, literally. (0:01:25) Kelly: Do you have any things I did in like the 10 minutes (0:01:27) Kelly: before I sat down to record this? (0:01:29) Kelly: I think I ran through like five chores, just, why? (0:01:30) Al: Yeah, classic. Well, this is also Kelly’s 10th episode on the podcast. (0:01:40) Kelly: Whoo, I can’t believe it’s been 10. When you said that, I was so shocked. (0:01:40) Al: It’s wild. Yeah, yeah. I was surprised as well. I didn’t expect it to be that many because (0:01:52) Al: I guess it’s just been over a long time. Your first episode was in 2021. So we did Spirit (0:01:56) Al: and then the Spiritfare DLC, and then you and Kev did. (0:02:00) Al: Cult of the Lamb, and then you and Bev and Maddie did Potion Permit, (0:02:05) Al: and then we did Fishing Break, you and Kev did Graveyard Keeper, and then we did Pumpkin Panic, (0:02:11) Al: an episode called “What is Stardew still missing?” which I don’t even remember doing, (0:02:15) Al: but apparently we did. Yeah, sure. (0:02:16) Kelly: I remember that. (0:02:17) Kelly: That’s when it came out for the PC. (0:02:23) Al: I need to see how many episodes we’ve done on Stardew, and then the Dave the Diver story episode. (0:02:29) Kelly: Oh, yes. (0:02:30) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:02:31) Al: And then this will be your 10th one, wild, there you go. (0:02:34) Kelly: So many fishing– (0:02:35) Kelly: farming games, not fishing games. (0:02:37) Kelly: Also fishing games. (0:02:38) Al: Well, yeah, one of them was specifically a fishing game. (0:02:41) Kelly: Yeah. (0:02:42) Al: And the others almost all have fishing in them. (0:02:44) Al: Does Dave the Diver count as fishing? (0:02:46) Kelly: I wanna say yes, but I feel like no, because realistically to me it’s the mechanic of fishing. (0:02:55) Al: Well, that’s why that’s why I’m questioning it. (0:02:58) Kelly: Like I think the fishing is so different. (0:02:58) Al: But like, there’s a lot. (0:03:02) Kelly: Would you count scuba diving and animal crossing as fishing? No, that’s like it. (0:03:07) Al: You’re not catching fish when you’re scuba diving, though. (0:03:08) Kelly: Oh, you’re not? Oh, the dive thing? No. (0:03:10) Al: No. (0:03:12) Al: No, you only catch fish with a fishing rod in Animal Crossing. (0:03:16) Al: You, there are, it’s quite, yeah, yeah. (0:03:16) Kelly: Is it just like clams? (0:03:18) Al: I think maybe as far as like a crab, but I don’t think there’s any fish. (0:03:23) Kelly: Okay. No, I would not count David Diver as a fishing game, honestly. (0:03:28) Al: Interesting. OK, that’s this is our controversy of the episode. (0:03:33) Al: Listeners, tell us, do you think Dave the Diver is a fishing episode or not? (0:03:40) Al: If you make me decide, I would say yes, it is a fishing game (0:03:44) Al: because I think that fishing would be catching fish. (0:03:48) Al: I don’t think you specifically have to use a fishing rod or a fishing net (0:03:52) Al: to count as fishing. (0:03:54) Kelly: I see your point. I think I’m going more off of the vibes of every other mini fishing game. (0:03:58) Al: Yeah. (0:04:01) Kelly: Because definition-wise, you’re correct. It is a fishing game. What else am I doing, (0:04:05) Kelly: if not fishing? But I wouldn’t count it with the fishing games. It almost is kind of like (0:04:06) Al: Yeah. I mean, I would say it’s a– Sure. Okay. I would say it is a fishing game, (0:04:11) Kelly: that little controversy they had with the indie game thing. Okay, okay. (0:04:18) Al: but not a cottagecore game, which is ironic because it’s a cottagecore podcast. And I feel (0:04:24) Al: like we had the discussion about whether it was cottagecore or not, multiple times throughout the (0:04:27) Al: summer. Anyway, five minutes discussion on the Diver who expected that. This episode, we are (0:04:34) Al: finally going to talk about Fields of (0:04:36) Al: Mistria. I realised that, apparently, Spotify has the (0:04:40) Al: ability to leave comments and I went on and noticed there’s a (0:04:43) Al: person on Spotify that has just been commenting regularly. Are (0:04:46) Al: you going to cover Fields of Mistria? So, yes, here we are (0:04:51) Al: covering Fields of Mistria. Shout out to you, our single (0:04:53) Kelly: For that one Spotify– (0:04:54) Al: commenter. I can’t even remember the name. Yeah, episodes as (0:05:01) Kelly: I didn’t know you could comment on Spotify stuff, either. (0:05:07) Al: Yeah, so there’s Jack. There we go. Jack, you’re the one who’s (0:05:12) Al: commented multiple times asking for Fields of Mistria. As (0:05:15) Kelly: Hey, Jack. I hope you enjoy this episode. (0:05:16) Al: recently as nine days ago. Yeah, I mean, we had decided to do (0:05:19) Kelly: This is personally for you, Jack. (0:05:25) Al: this before I even looked at Spotify. But yeah, sure. So (0:05:30) Al: we’re going to talk about Fields of Mistria. Before that, we (0:05:32) Al: We have some news. (0:05:36) Al: A bunch of new games and a bunch of updates. (0:05:39) Al: First of all, Kelly, what have you been up to? (0:05:42) Kelly: I have been playing a lot of Rimworld again, because I think it’s a (0:05:49) Kelly: like, I don’t know what it is, Stardew is like a march game for me. And I think Rimworld is a (0:05:57) Kelly: late fall game for me. So I am back to Rimworld, which is not cottagecore, but it is a lot of (0:06:01) Al: Okay. (0:06:04) Kelly: farming. I mean, I guess technically, you could play cottagecore style, because they do have like, (0:06:10) Kelly: No violence mode, which I have (0:06:12) Kelly: played because I just want to like build. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no. And then I’ve also (0:06:14) Al: yeah it’s a management game though isn’t it management style game yeah yeah I’m (0:06:18) Al: not playing it then (0:06:21) Kelly: been playing web fishing, which is really cute and fun and like, very simple, but like the core (0:06:27) Kelly: mechanic of fishing that I just enjoy in every farming game without like the deadline of having (0:06:33) Al: So. (0:06:35) Kelly: having to go to bed at night. (0:06:36) Al: So I have a question about that. (0:06:39) Al: I have been interested in this, but not enough to play it. (0:06:43) Al: But what do you do you interact with the chat room aspect of? (0:06:50) Kelly: You can play alone, or you can join a random lobby, or you can play with your friends. (0:06:55) Al: And what have you been doing? (0:06:56) Kelly: I have been either playing alone or playing with friends. I’m not really a big like, go into random people’s lobbies. (0:07:01) Al: OK, but you have you have done it with friends. (0:07:04) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:07:05) Al: What does that actually like? (0:07:08) Al: What is actually like? Is it audio? (0:07:10) Al: Is it text? It’s text. (0:07:10) Kelly: No, it’s text. It’s text. And then you kind of get the, like, Animal Crossing sounds as you hit send. It, like, does that. (0:07:20) Kelly: On top of your little chat and it pops up above your head and like, you also have like a little chat message bar so you could like see what you’ve been talking about. (0:07:29) Al: Okay. Okay. Okay. Because I hadn’t I know I looked through the screenshots and I hadn’t seen anything that actually showed the chat room aspect of it. It was all just like, you know, pictures of the fishing. (0:07:37) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it’s, it’s like a cute little aspect. I like that. I think it’s good (0:07:48) Kelly: that it’s like text. But very, very cute little game. Very cute. I just love fishing games. (0:07:49) Al: Yeah, yeah for sure (0:07:57) Kelly: I’m not going to lie. What have you been up to? (0:07:58) Al: Fair enough. (0:08:04) Al: I have obviously been playing Fields of Mistria quite a bit. (0:08:09) Al: We’ll talk about that when we come to it. (0:08:10) Al: I’ve also been keeping going with Marvel (0:08:13) Al: Snap and Pokemon Pocket. (0:08:16) Kelly: Oh, that’s the TCG one, right? (0:08:18) Kelly: I’ve been playing that. (0:08:19) Al: Yes, yes. (0:08:21) Kelly: I keep forgetting to open my pack, so– (0:08:24) Al: Do you not just open it when you get the notification, no? (0:08:26) Kelly: I don’t have notifications for things. (0:08:29) Al: OK, right, OK, so I turn off a lot of notifications, right? (0:08:34) Al: But, right, if you forget things, which. (0:08:39) Kelly: Yeah, but I’m just going to swipe the notification away. (0:08:40) Al: Yeah. (0:08:42) Al: No, you tap on it and then you open the app, open the gate, open the thing, right? (0:08:46) Al: You just do it then, you do it there and then it’s so fast. (0:08:46) Kelly: No, I’m not gonna do that. (0:08:49) Al: This is so this one, but this is the beauty of this game is it’s so fast. (0:08:53) Al: It’s like you open it and you press it and you get your five cards, you get your (0:08:53) Kelly: It is, that is nice. (0:08:56) Al: Dopamine hit, you swipe the app away the next- (0:08:58) Al: and the notification comes up, you do exactly the same thing. (0:09:00) Kelly: Al, listen. You’re right. I’m not going to try to fight you on this because you are 100% right. (0:09:02) Al: Ten seconds. (0:09:08) Kelly: However, many times I open the app and a message pops up that says, “You didn’t finish opening your card pack!” (0:09:16) Al: did stop doing that then. Yeah, I do. I do that. Yeah, I have to say, yeah, that is a bit of a (0:09:18) Kelly: So that is– [Laughter] (0:09:21) Al: problem. I don’t know why this game is so obsessed with that. It’s like you open up, you open a pack (0:09:26) Al: and you see it and then you write, close the app. And it’s like, I’ve seen my cards. I saw my cards, (0:09:28) Kelly: Mm-hmm because I forgot to like swipe it up. Yeah (0:09:32) Al: right? Don’t tell me I didn’t finish just because I haven’t gone and seen the 15 million animations (0:09:37) Kelly: Yeah, exactly. (0:09:37) Al: after that. It’s the same because it’s the same thing with, uh, with the battles, especially the (0:09:41) Al: solo battles is bizarre, right? Because it’s like, if you, you know, (0:09:46) Al: you do a battle and then you get annoyed because you lose. So you close, (0:09:49) Al: you just swipe the app away in anger. It’s like a really satisfying thing to do. (0:09:53) Al: And then you open it next time and it’s like, oh, did, you know, you didn’t finish this battle. (0:09:57) Al: I’m like, I did. I lost because I didn’t go through this stuff. Don’t make me relive this. (0:09:58) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, I actually I haven’t battled yet, but I completely understand. (0:10:01) Al: Why are you making me relive this? Go away. (0:10:10) Kelly: Yeah, but I do like the aspect of the whole idea that it is a two second app where you just open it open your card pack and then close it again. (0:10:18) Al: Perfect. That’s fair. That’s fair. But the problem is you can (0:10:18) Kelly: Like, I just want it for the cards I don’t want to really battle. (0:10:25) Al: get more cards by battling. Oh, yes. Absolutely. I don’t I (0:10:26) Kelly: Is it better than Pokemon Go? (0:10:28) Kelly: I’m not sure. (0:10:30) Kelly: Okay. (0:10:32) Kelly: Maybe I’ll try it, maybe I’ll try it. (0:10:34) Kelly: We’ll see. I gotta get more cards first. (0:10:36) Kelly: Yeah. (0:10:37) Al: don’t do PvP battles very much because like, you know, people (0:10:41) Al: suck. But I do there’s a lot of solo battles in the game. And (0:10:45) Al: know, there’s a new solo battle event going on right now. (0:10:48) Al: now that has unique cards for winning things. So yeah, against the computer. (0:10:51) Kelly: Oh, you can just play it yourself. (0:10:53) Kelly: Okay, okay, I didn’t I didn’t even look at that. (0:10:56) Al: The best bit is you can also tell the game to play for you. So you can have the computer (0:11:02) Al: playing against the computer. Yes, but what I do is when I’m sitting at my desk and I want just (0:11:04) Kelly: What? Kinda lazy? (laughs) (0:11:10) Al: a couple of battles and I don’t care about it because I’ve already beaten these battles, (0:11:14) Al: I just want to beat them more for more rewards (0:11:16) Al: Then I just have it sit (0:11:18) Al: In here I like just down on my phone (0:11:22) Al: Stand it’s just sitting there and it’s just doing the battles and every so often (0:11:27) Al: I look over it and see if I’ve won or lost and then I start again (0:11:30) Kelly: that is nice. I agree. That is a nice feature. Oh, yeah, I should go check mine. I do really (0:11:34) Al: Speaking of which I just got a notification that I’ve got packs. Let’s see. I’ve already got that already got that already got that (0:11:39) Al: Already got that no new cards great (0:11:43) Kelly: like looking at the card art, though. I think that’s the most fun of it. (0:11:46) Al: I’m just in an (0:11:48) Al: unfortunate position right now where I have most of the cards so most days I’m getting nothing (0:11:52) Kelly: Hmm. I only started like a week ago, I think. Also, I’ve noticed I’m very biased. I like almost (0:11:59) Kelly: never opened a Charizard pack. I know, I know. But I don’t want to. I know. I’m just, I have my own problem. (0:12:00) Al: Yeah, some of the cards are specific to that pack. (0:12:09) Al: I don’t know what to tell you. (0:12:15) Al: Anyway, so yeah, Pocket and Snap, I am at 98 on Snap now, so hopefully I’ll get to 100 by (0:12:22) Al: the end of Tuesday. We’ll see. And I’ve also started playing, speaking of playing games (0:12:31) Al: until the Game of the Year episode. I’ve been playing Luma Island as well, so yeah. (0:12:38) Al: I think it’s doing some interesting new things that I may or may not talk about in a week, and (0:12:45) Kelly: - Okay. (0:12:48) Al: I think I appreciate what it is doing, but I don’t know if it’s for me. (0:12:56) Al: But I’ve only put in like 15 hours into it so far, so. (0:13:00) Al: I’m gonna need more time to make that, isn’t it? (0:13:02) Kelly: I think that that sounds like it’ll be fun to see where it goes at least, (0:13:06) Al: Yeah. (0:13:07) Kelly: you know, and sometimes even if the mechanics aren’t for you, (0:13:09) Kelly: it’s like nice just to see people trying. (0:13:11) Al: Oh, for sure, for sure. (0:13:14) Al: All right, that’s what we’ve been up to. (0:13:18) Al: Next is our monthly segment of the recent releases, (0:13:22) Al: because this is only a second time doing it, but I decided that because there’s so many releases (0:13:28) Al: of games. (0:13:29) Al: And I’m always talking about the future. (0:13:30) Al: Talking about the past, I felt like people might want a monthly recap on what’s out (0:13:35) Al: in case they’ve heard of something that they’re like, “Oh, that’s something I want to play.” (0:13:40) Al: And now you can. (0:13:41) Al: So there have been four releases in November. (0:13:43) Al: I know it’s now December when you’re hearing this, but this is for November. (0:13:47) Al: So we have Farming Simulator 25. (0:13:50) Al: So if you love that Farming Simulator, there’s your new one, it’s out now. (0:13:55) Al: We also have Everhome, which I think… (0:14:01) Al: I don’t think that was previously Early Access, was it? (0:14:04) Al: No, I’m not seeing anything about Early Access, so that’s just a release now. (0:14:10) Kelly: Oh, that one looks cute. (0:14:11) Al: It does. (0:14:12) Al: It’s definitely on my list of “I want to play this,” but that list is very long. (0:14:15) Kelly: I’m going to add it to my list right now. (0:14:18) Al: And then we have Petite Island, which I’m pretty sure was in Early Access. (0:14:23) Al: So that is now 1.0. (0:14:25) Al: Is that correct? (0:14:26) Al: Oh, no. (0:14:27) Al: No, it’s not saying anything about Early Access. (0:14:28) Al: I was wrong. (0:14:30) Kelly: Honestly, with the amount of games that are in early access for forever, it’s like, (0:14:37) Kelly: who’s to remember anymore? Everything feels like it’s in early access. (0:14:42) Al: And and then Luma Island as well, which is also not in early access. (0:14:48) Al: So that’s four releases. (0:14:49) Al: None of them in early access. (0:14:51) Al: None of them have been in early access one unusual month. (0:14:54) Kelly: That is pretty crazy is it is it like I wonder if it’s like a pre-christmas thing (0:14:58) Al: Possibly, possibly. (0:14:59) Kelly: You know (0:15:00) Al: I do think a lot of I mean, a lot of games get delayed at this point. (0:15:04) Al: Like you don’t get a huge number of games coming out just now (0:15:06) Al: because they’ve either come out in October in time for, you know, (0:15:12) Al: the Christmas sale or they come out next year because they didn’t quite manage it. (0:15:18) Kelly: Mm hmm. Yeah, that. (0:15:18) Al: They don’t tend to like to come out in December or November (0:15:21) Al: because there’s too much happening. (0:15:25) Al: All right, next, we’ve got the news. (0:15:28) Al: The first news is a piece of news that I (0:15:30) Al: meant to talk about in the last episode, but I forgot (0:15:34) Al: because I didn’t write it down for some reason. (0:15:36) Al: And that is that they’ve announced a new series of stardew concerts. (0:15:40) Al: they had the previous series. (0:15:42) Al: Stargie Concerts that were called Festival of Seasons. (0:15:44) Al: The new ones are called Symphony of Seasons, and these are bigger. (0:15:49) Al: It’s a 35 piece orchestra. (0:15:52) Al: I believe the last one was under 20. (0:15:55) Al: I can’t remember exactly. (0:15:56) Al: I don’t know if it has it listed, but it was it was certainly much more intimate. (0:16:01) Al: It called it a chamber orchestra. (0:16:02) Al: Is that a specific number? (0:16:04) Al: I suspect not. (0:16:05) Al: Rona would be shouting at me if she was in the room. (0:16:06) Kelly: I have no idea. (0:16:07) Al: No, it just means just means small. (0:16:12) Al: So we may if you’ve not listened to it, me and Rona did a greenhouse episode on (0:16:18) Al: going to the previous Stargie Valley concert because Rona, my wife, is a big (0:16:23) Al: musician. She enjoys music. (0:16:26) Al: She does not play Stargie Valley. (0:16:27) Al: So it was a fun discussion to have about the music versus the the game sort of thing. (0:16:34) Al: I have successfully purchased tickets for the new concert. (0:16:37) Al: one the one that they’re doing in Scotland which (0:16:42) Al: obviously one is not very many, but we actually get one in many cases we don’t even get one. (0:16:47) Al: So I’m very happy to actually have one. (0:16:48) Kelly: Whoo! Whoo! Yeah, that is exciting. I forgot you went to the last round. (0:16:55) Al: And the Yeah, yeah. (0:16:58) Al: So that was earlier this year sometime, April or something. (0:17:04) Al: And that was in a converted church in Edinburgh. (0:17:08) Al: This new one is in 2026. (0:17:12) Al: It’s over a year away, which is just because of the time of the year that makes it sound (0:17:17) Al: even further away. (0:17:18) Al: It’s actually only like a year and two months away or something. (0:17:21) Al: I think it’s February. (0:17:22) Kelly: - Oh yeah, it’s heavy, all right. (0:17:22) Al: So it’s not that bad, but it does sound ridiculously far away. (0:17:30) Al: But they’re doing that, and this shows you how they’ve gone up a little bit. (0:17:32) Al: They’ve gone from a converted church in Edinburgh to the Royal Concert Hall in Glasgow, which (0:17:38) Al: which is, I think, three times the size. (0:17:42) Kelly: It’s, it’s, you know, you know, Stardew is big, but I think when you see it like in this kind of aspect, it’s like, wow. (0:17:48) Al: Yeah, this is their second world tour, and this one’s bigger. (0:17:52) Kelly: Yeah. (0:17:54) Kelly: The next one’s going to be stadium level concert. (0:17:58) Al: Yeah, I don’t think I would want to see stardew music in a stadium. (0:18:02) Kelly: No, I think this is much cuter. Yeah. Yeah. But no, that’s so that’s so cool. (0:18:03) Al: I feel like concert hall works best. (0:18:09) Al: So, yeah, it was funny because (0:18:11) Al: so there was a presale that if you signed up to the newsletter, you got the code. (0:18:14) Al: I signed up for that and then we got the code (0:18:17) Al: and then I forgot all about (0:18:18) Al: it. And it was like, because I had my laptop next to my work, because it was 9am on Monday. (0:18:24) Al: I had my personal laptop like next to my desk, ready to log on at nine, and then completely (0:18:29) Al: forgot. It was really unfortunate. And then I looked at the time, there was, I can’t remember (0:18:36) Al: what it was, I just randomly looked at the clock, and it was 11 o’clock and went, “Oh, (0:18:40) Al: the concert. Oh, no.” And so I went on and thankfully they still had. (0:18:49) Kelly: That’s good, especially because, like you said, you only have one night for Scotland, (0:18:53) Al: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And well, yeah. And it’s like I could go to England, but there’s only (0:18:54) Kelly: so it’s not like, “Oh, I could drive a few states over if I have to.” (0:19:01) Al: two in England and one of them is London, which is like four hour train ride or yeah. (0:19:06) Kelly: You wanna go to London? (0:19:07) Al: And who wants to go to London? And it’s like, it’s always annoying when you, cause like (0:19:11) Al: London gets the, cause I think you get like, obviously New York gets the, you know, Broadway (0:19:16) Al: musicals first cause obviously Broadway, uh, it’s kind of in the name. Um, but then they, (0:19:17) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:19:20) Al: They tend to go to London next and they take forever. (0:19:24) Al: You can always go to London for these things. (0:19:26) Al: It’s like, I don’t want to go to London, oh my word. (0:19:29) Kelly: Yeah, I don’t even want to go into the city for some of this stuff, so I feel you (0:19:34) Al: London is one of them, and Manchester is the other one. (0:19:36) Al: Manchester, despite being further north, is harder to get to than London. (0:19:41) Kelly: Oh, really? I thought I thought that would be closer to you, honestly. (0:19:44) Al: If you’re driving, it’s faster. (0:19:46) Al: But if you’re getting the train, it’s more difficult. (0:19:48) Al: It takes longer to get there. (0:19:48) Kelly: Mm. That makes sense. (0:19:50) Al: because they’ve got like a super fast train from Edinburgh to… (0:19:53) Al: London. It’s like four hours on the train which is fine but then it becomes a whole weekend thing (0:20:01) Al: rather than a night thing. Whereas this is, it starts at 7pm it’s like I can get my kids (0:20:08) Al: mostly ready for bed and then head off and then be back in for midnight. (0:20:13) Kelly: Yeah, you know, that’s nice. Yeah, that’ll be exciting. I didn’t realize it was, I mean, (0:20:18) Kelly: like you said, it’s only like a year basically away. (0:20:20) Al: Yeah, I think the American dates start in like August or something. (0:20:25) Kelly: Mm-hmm. Yeah, end of August. (0:20:26) Al: Yeah, the first dates in Seattle. (0:20:30) Kelly: I will say it’s funny. There’s no New York City date. (0:20:33) Kelly: It’s only upstate New York and New Jersey. (0:20:35) Al: Oh, that’s funny. Is that because New York City is just stupidly expensive to? (0:20:40) Kelly: That’s what I was about to say is it’s definitely because of that. (0:20:42) Al: Of all the places, of all the places in the world, it’s like you do not want to do that. (0:20:47) Kelly: Yeah. So that one makes a lot– because at first I was like, wow, there’s no New York City one. (0:20:54) Kelly: but there is a new (0:20:55) Kelly: New Jersey, which is close enough. (0:20:57) Kelly: I would go there instead of Albany. (0:21:00) Al: Yes, yeah, because, well, I don’t know where New York is, but New Jersey’s closer, I mean, (0:21:06) Al: much of New Jersey is closer to you than most of New York, right? I know, because I read (0:21:09) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, exactly. (0:21:14) Al: a lot of Ms. Marvel Comics, and she’s based in New Jersey City. (0:21:19) Kelly: Yeah, those are my sister works, actually, (0:21:21) Kelly: right across the water. (0:21:23) Kelly: It’s nice there now. (0:21:24) Kelly: They’ve been making it nicer. (0:21:24) Al: New York is right there. You’ve got New York, and then you’ve got Manhattan, and then you’ve (0:21:32) Al: got Jersey City, and then you’ve got New York. That looks… Yeah, that would… Yeah. (0:21:33) Kelly: No, yeah, literally. (0:21:38) Kelly: Oh, they put all their businesses on that side, (0:21:40) Kelly: I’m pretty sure, because they’re like tax reasons. (0:21:42) Al: Because there’s also casinos in New Jersey as well, isn’t there? (0:21:43) Kelly: You know? (0:21:46) Kelly: Mm-hm. We have them in New York now, just they’re more limited. Yeah, there was one that (0:21:49) Al: Howdy! (0:21:52) Al: I thought New York was quite strict with gambling. (0:21:55) Kelly: they were, I think when I was like in my early 20s, stuff started to change (0:22:02) Kelly: and they opened up a casino near where I lived. But I think they were, it wasn’t, you know, (0:22:08) Kelly: as open as like other states are with the gambling even inside of there. You know, (0:22:13) Kelly: like not every game I guess is allowed or stuff like that. Difference. (0:22:17) Kelly: I don’t know what gambling rules are. I just go in and I pull the lever. (0:22:23) Al: - Okay. (0:22:27) Kelly: But yeah, usually people from New York would go to Jersey to gamble because it’s better over there. (0:22:32) Al: It’s really funny, I’m just looking at the Google Maps and I knew there was weird stuff around (0:22:36) Al: exactly who owned Ellis Island and Liberty Island and I noticed that on Google Maps it has most of (0:22:44) Al: Ellis Island listed as New Jersey with like a big chunk of it including the Immigrations Museum (0:22:52) Al: listed as New York. So it’s like because you’re over the line, technically the island is within (0:22:53) Kelly: Oh, that’s funny. (0:22:58) Al: New Jersey. So most of it is New Jersey, but then there’s like an (0:23:02) Al: exclave of New York. We love border disputes. Did you know that Greenland and Canada now (0:23:04) Kelly: I forgot about that whole debacle. (0:23:13) Kelly: Who doesn’t? (0:23:20) Al: have a land border due to a solved border dispute? Yeah, so there’s an island between (0:23:23) Kelly: No, I did not (0:23:27) Al: mainland Greenland mainland Greenland between (0:23:32) Al: Greenland Greenland and like the very north of Canada. (0:23:36) Al: What is that? (0:23:37) Al: It doesn’t have a name. Nobody cares about it. (0:23:41) Al: Which is like right in the middle of the water, (0:23:44) Al: which is where they put the border between them. (0:23:47) Al: So it like crosses the island. (0:23:48) Al: So they spent decades arguing over who owned it. (0:23:52) Al: And then eventually they decided they just split it. (0:23:53) Al: So now technically it’s half and half. (0:23:55) Al: So they have a land border there. (0:23:57) Kelly: that’s cool. It’s kind of like the two little islands in the bearings straight between what (0:23:59) Al: Thank you. (0:24:02) Al: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:24:03) Kelly: are they called? Something with a D. I don’t remember. Yeah. Yeah. That one’s messed up though (0:24:06) Al: Diomede, a big Diomede and little Diomede. (0:24:10) Kelly: because like people live there and then they can’t, they got split up and now they can’t see their (0:24:11) Al: Yeah. (0:24:14) Kelly: relatives. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But you can’t cross that ice. It’s not allowed. (0:24:15) Al: Well, and it’s, and it’s essentially a land border half of the year anyway, because of the ice. (0:24:23) Al: Well, not, well, yeah, not allowed is very different from Kant. (0:24:27) Kelly: That’s true. That’s very true. (0:24:29) Al: Anyway, enough about geography. (0:24:32) Al: That’s the Stardew Valley Concert. (0:24:33) Al: Are you going to go to any of them? (0:24:34) Al: You’re going to go to the New Jersey one? (0:24:36) Kelly: Probably not, no. Yeah, probably not. (0:24:44) Kelly: It would be cool, but no. Yeah, no. I’m very excited for you. That is very cool. (0:24:46) Al: I’m excited for it. (0:24:52) Al: We don’t go to stuff very often because kids. (0:24:54) Al: So this year we went to the Stardew Concert (0:24:56) Al: and we went to Hamilton. (0:24:58) Al: Hamilton were in Edinburgh. (0:25:00) Al: And then next year, next year. (0:25:00) Kelly: Oh, nice. What is that? (0:25:02) Al: Next year, we’re going to see six. (0:25:04) Al: I think that’s what it’s called. (0:25:06) Al: So I believe it’s about Henry VIII’s wives. (0:25:08) Kelly: Oh, you know what? I think I might have heard something about this, actually. (0:25:11) Al: You’ll probably have seen music from it on TikTok. (0:25:15) Al: It’s all over the place. (0:25:15) Kelly: Yeah, that makes sense. TikTok is a great marketing ploy for that. (0:25:17) Al: So yeah, so many, so many musicals I’ve learned about that, yeah. (0:25:25) Kelly: Yeah, they’re really catchy. They get stuck in your head really well. (0:25:31) Al: Yeah, it’s a modern retelling of the lives of the six waves of Henry VIII. (0:25:36) Kelly: Okay. That’s cool. Yeah. No, yeah, yeah. Yeah, why not? And that’s fun. And now that you (0:25:38) Al: All I know is the music’s catchy, and Rona wants to see it, and I was like, yeah, let’s (0:25:45) Al: go see it, because I like the music. (0:25:49) Kelly: can, like, now that the kids are a little older and can actually get out a little bit (0:25:53) Kelly: more. It’s like, why not? (0:25:54) Al: So that’s our one for next year. (0:25:56) Al: And then we’ve got the Stardew concert the year after. (0:26:01) Al: Maybe I’ll see Wicked in 2026. (0:26:04) Kelly: Oh, yes, I want that to come out. I want them to release that on the streaming so that I don’t have to go into the theater for it. (0:26:10) Al: So here’s an interesting thing for you, apparently you can go into the New York Public Library (0:26:20) Al: and watch it. (0:26:20) Kelly: Oh, but I didn’t have to go to Manhattan. (0:26:21) Al: No, I know, I know, right? (0:26:26) Al: But you can, at least. (0:26:27) Al: I can’t. (0:26:28) Kelly: Yes. Okay. Okay. Okay. That’s fair. That’s fair. That’s fair. (0:26:29) Al: Yes, it would be work, but less work than going to the theatre. (0:26:30) Kelly: It would be a trek to get there and then have to sit there and watch it. (0:26:38) Kelly: Yes. I’ve heard it’s a lot of sing-alongs in the theaters, (0:26:42) Al: Goodness, thankfully, I live in a very, a place where it is unacceptable to sing. (0:26:44) Kelly: which I’m happy for those theater kids, but you know, I don’t, I’m not a theater. (0:26:54) Al: So when we went to see the film, there were not people singing. (0:26:59) Kelly: I wish. (0:27:00) Al: This is what is unusual. (0:27:01) Kelly: My mom, actually. (chuckles) (0:27:02) Al: This is what is unusual is actually the people clapped at the end of it. (0:27:06) Al: I have never had people clap at the end of the film. (0:27:07) Kelly: Oh, it’s like clapping when a flight lands. (0:27:11) Kelly: I hate both of those. (0:27:12) Kelly: I hate those kind of people. (chuckles) (0:27:12) Al: There is one situation where clapping when a flight lands is acceptable, (0:27:16) Kelly: Yes, yes. (0:27:16) Al: and that is when you thought you were going to die. (0:27:18) Kelly: Yeah. (chuckles) (0:27:20) Kelly: Every other time, it’s just like, (0:27:22) Kelly: that guy was just doing his job or her job, (0:27:24) Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:27:26) Kelly: like, this is how it should go, don’t clap. (0:27:29) Al: If you thought you were going to die or you’re flying Ryanair. (0:27:35) Al: All right, so let’s get into some game news now. (0:27:37) Al: So the first in the news is Sunheavour. (0:27:40) Al: I’ve announced their UK, Switzerland, and New Zealand release date. (0:27:46) Al: If you’re not up to date with the weird situation here, I will just summarize it. (0:27:51) Al: Sunheaven announced their America’s release date, and then they announced their Asian (0:27:57) Al: release dates. (0:27:59) Al: And then they announced most of Europe and also Australia, but not Switzerland, the United (0:28:05) Al: Kingdom, and New Zealand. (0:28:07) Al: And I, at the time, and still do think they just forgot. (0:28:10) Al: Well, so the Switzerland and United Kingdom I noticed were alphabetically at the end of the list, after all the other countries, so I just think they just copied and pasted incorrectly. (0:28:12) Kelly: ‘Cause I was like, what a weird bunch of countries to kind of like… (0:28:26) Al: I’m not sure why New Zealand, maybe they just forgot it existed, but I’m not 100% sure what the system. (0:28:34) Kelly: Because I would think New Zealand and Australia would be paired together like (0:28:36) Al: Well, so, so, right, OK, so… (0:28:40) Al: The weird thing about… So, the way the eShop works is there are, I think, six different regions. (0:28:47) Al: There is one for North America and one for South America, one for Europe, Australia, (0:28:55) Al: and New Zealand, and South Africa, I believe, and then there’s one for Japan, one for Hong Kong, (0:29:02) Al: and one for South Korea. Was that six? That was six. I believe that’s all of them. (0:29:04) Kelly: Okay. Yeah. (0:29:09) Al: what I understand based. (0:29:10) Al: So I think this is just them like cleaning up after their mistake and not admitting it, (0:29:30) Al: which is weird. And I also think the reason that they got they released it region by region is (0:29:36) Al: because they didn’t realize there were multiple regions until they’d already added it. (0:29:41) Al: To the Americas one. (0:29:42) Kelly: That’s so funny! (0:29:45) Al: And the problem is we don’t know any of this because the Sunhaven developers are very bad (0:29:49) Al: at communicating their discard after they announced the European release date before (0:29:54) Al: they announced that also included United Kingdom Switzerland and New Zealand was just people (0:29:59) Al: saying, so is it not coming to the UK? Is it coming a different date? What’s happening? (0:30:03) Al: And it turns out it’s exactly the same date, which would back up my they just forgot to tell you (0:30:08) Al: about it because there are two. (0:30:10) Al: There is a possibility of that, but I mean, generally the regions are very similar politically. (0:30:29) Kelly: which I could see because it’s like, aren’t some countries kind of (0:30:40) Kelly: Yeah, that’s true. (0:30:41) Al: But if that is the case, what happened was they ticked all of the boxes except the UK, (0:30:48) Al: Switzerland, and New Zealand. They did not check those boxes and then they put in a different (0:30:53) Al: release and checked just those three countries. Because it’s not even like an EU versus not EU (0:31:01) Al: thing, because Norway was in the first release and is not in the EU, and obviously Australia is (0:31:01) Kelly: No, it’s a, it’s a weird. (0:31:06) Al: is not in the EU and Switzerland is not in the EU but for (0:31:10) Al: and purposes regulatorily it is the same and the UK is mostly the same because obviously it was in (0:31:17) Al: the EU until four years ago so it’s a bit of a mess I miss clicks or copy and paste mistake which (0:31:22) Kelly: Yeah, that’s, that’s, that sounds like a misclick, a few misclicks, for sure. (0:31:31) Al: is what I think I think they went and tried to copy the entire list and just missed the last two (0:31:35) Al: of them. (0:31:38) Kelly: and then did not even like acknowledge it or any like. (0:31:41) Al: Yeah well that’s the weird thing right? Like people have been talking about this from the (0:31:45) Al: moment they published their post about it coming to Europe and they said nothing (0:31:51) Al: and so like if they had just it almost feels like they just don’t want to admit their mistakes (0:31:56) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But they could just make a joke about it like this. People would (0:31:56) Al: and but why in such a weird way? Yeah! (0:32:01) Kelly: find it funny like it’s not a it’s an inconsequential mistake like nobody’s. (0:32:06) Al: Yeah. And the people already think they don’t communicate. And so making this weird like, (0:32:13) Al: oh, we weren’t wrong. We were right all along. Thing just makes it seem even weirder. Oh, (0:32:22) Al: anyway, living on. We have one DLC release. So Everdream Valley have announced a family (0:32:31) Al: time DLC. This is coming to Steam on the 6th of December and then in consoles. (0:32:36) Al: Next year Q1. This has new story quests, new NPCs, new animals and new furniture. That’s (0:32:45) Al: an interesting thing to put in a DLC. Well, quests, were quests, animals and furniture. (0:32:52) Al: I guess NPCs like, I guess that’s not an unusual thing to put like new characters in, but the (0:32:54) Kelly: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, like I could see, like a lot of games will do like a new DLC with (0:33:03) Kelly: more quests. You know, so maybe. Yeah, yeah, that’s how I would take it. Yeah, like it’s (0:33:04) Al: Mm hmm. Yes. Yeah. Okay. I guess. Yeah. They’re not saying like this is by the DLC to get (0:33:10) Al: quests. It’s the DLC comes with quests. Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. The furniture (0:33:13) Kelly: like additional furniture, additional quests, additional NPCs kind of thing that that’s I (0:33:17) Kelly: could be wrong. But that’s how I would read it. Yeah, that’s just add on. (0:33:19) Al: is, I guess, not weird because it’s just like that’s pretty common thing. And then we have (0:33:24) Al: three updates to games. Snacko have released their builder’s dream update, which I’m sure (0:33:30) Al: you can guess where that is. It’s a whole bunch of crafting building stuff. (0:33:34) Al: Lots of good improvements. And I guess we’re not getting Snacko 1.0 this year. (0:33:41) Al: We’re probably getting next year. Because that’s 0.9.5. So close. (0:33:44) Kelly: They intentionally just decided we’re going to add a few more digits into this. (0:33:55) Kelly: It looks so cute though, I wanted to come out. (0:33:57) Al: Yeah, at this point I’m like, because I’ve not played it since the early access came out, (0:34:01) Al: I did play a very early alpha of it. Because I’ve not played it since the early access (0:34:07) Al: come out, at this point I’m like, I just need to wait for the 1.0, right? (0:34:10) Kelly: Yeah. Yeah, because I feel like at this point, it’s like if you don’t wait for the 1.0, (0:34:15) Kelly: like what are you getting out of the 1.0 when it comes out? (0:34:17) Al: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. I will, I will say, I will say, Snacko Devs, listen to me. (0:34:25) Al: We’re good friends, we’ve talked before. (0:34:27) Al: Listen to me now, do not release this in December. (0:34:30) Al: You released the early access last December. (0:34:32) Al: Do not, do not do this. (0:34:35) Al: I beg of you, January, January’s fine. (0:34:39) Al: Do not release your 1.0 in December. (0:34:41) Al: I will cry. (0:34:43) Al: I will cry. (0:34:44) Al: Thank you. (0:34:45) Kelly: - You’re gonna release it December 31st at… (0:34:48) Al: That’s OK, that’s December 31st is fine. (0:34:50) Al: That’s basically January, because I will have recorded all the episodes by then (0:34:54) Al: for the year. It’s not like I need to then rush it, right? (0:34:57) Al: As a 2024 game, it was December the 31st. (0:35:00) Kelly: Also, I just love in their little notes the difference in communication where they literally (0:35:08) Kelly: have screenshots from the Discord talking about part of the updates here. (0:35:10) Al: Mm. Yeah. (0:35:13) Al: That is such a good point. (0:35:14) Al: Snacko Dev is fantastic with communication. (0:35:16) Al: Like they are literally just in the Discord talking to people. (0:35:20) Al: Sunhaven, I have never seen a single one of them talk in the Discord. (0:35:26) Al: Yeah, definitely. (0:35:28) Al: Spiritity have released their Phantom Friends update, which adds a… (0:35:33) Al: You can have your spirits as pets now. (0:35:40) Al: Interesting change. (0:35:40) Kelly: to like follow you around. (0:35:41) Al: If, yeah, yeah, they follow you around and replace your existing… (0:35:48) Al: No, they don’t replace your existing spirit companion. (0:35:50) Al: They add to… (0:35:53) Kelly: I wonder if I should give this game another chance. (0:35:55) Kelly: It seems like they’ve added so much since I last played. (0:35:57) Al: possibly, yeah. (0:36:00) Kelly: But I have enough other farming games. (0:36:08) Kelly: That’s that. That was my issue. (0:36:13) Kelly: Yeah. (0:36:18) Kelly: Now that is a good point, because I feel like I just at its core, (0:36:21) Kelly: I felt kind of listless playing the game. (0:36:25) Kelly: So, yeah, I think you do have a good point. (0:36:27) Kelly: I just like I want to like it so much. (0:36:30) Al: I agree. I also want to like it. Um, but I guess about it, that counts, right? (0:36:36) Kelly: - Yeah, it does have very positive reviews, (0:36:38) Kelly: so obviously other people are enjoying it. (0:36:39) Al: Which is good, which is good. And it’s, you know, yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. Um, (0:36:39) Kelly: So I’m glad, yeah, I’m glad. (0:36:41) Kelly: ‘Cause I do like, I like the whole concept. (0:36:47) Al: and it’s over 500 reviews as well. So it’s not, it’s not like they’re, they must be getting (0:36:52) Al: enough. That’s, you know, 500 reviews means quite a lot more people buying it, right? Because (0:36:57) Al: most people do not review your game. (0:37:00) Kelly: Yeah, no, I don’t think I think I’ve reviewed like two games (0:37:00) Al: I don’t know if I’ve reviewed any of them on Steam. (0:37:09) Al: They’ve also added new spirits, so that’s what you care about in the game, right? (0:37:15) Al: The spirits. (0:37:16) Al: So there you go. (0:37:19) Al: And the final update is Far Lands. (0:37:22) Al: I’ve released their 0.3 update. (0:37:25) Al: This is the biggest update Far Lands has seen to date. (0:37:30) Al: It adds achievements, which is always a good thing. (0:37:34) Al: Another game we’re about to talk about later on in this episode could have. (0:37:37) Al: That would be great. (0:37:38) Al: Please and thank you. (0:37:42) Kelly: I also love achievements. (0:37:44) Kelly: It’s honestly one of the big things (0:37:45) Kelly: that I really like from not playing (0:37:47) Kelly: as many games on the Switch and switching over to PC. (0:37:48) Al: Mm, yeah, I wonder if, well, almost every game feels a mystery. I wonder if, because (0:37:51) Kelly: I’m like, oh, achievements in every game. (0:37:54) Kelly: How nice. (0:37:59) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:38:05) Al: obviously they have been slowly getting more and more features as they get a lot, you know, (0:38:10) Al: like the 3DS added a bunch of stuff that other games, other systems had, and then the Switch (0:38:16) Al: called Mostly Modern. (0:38:18) Al: Maybe the next switch you’ll have. (0:38:23) Kelly: Maybe. I always wonder, I didn’t know what the issue was, to be honest, because I know (0:38:28) Kelly: when some people, what is it called, port the games to the Switch, like I know for HoloNet (0:38:34) Kelly: I can’t do video screenshots. I could do plain image screenshots. Yeah, because I think it’s (0:38:37) Al: Yeah, interesting. That, so I believe the video screenshots is something they can disable. (0:38:46) Kelly: about how hard it is for the person porting it to, I guess… Okay. (0:38:51) Al: I don’t think that requires any work on their point. I think it’s more a case of they didn’t (0:38:53) Kelly: Which is, yeah, because it’s weird, because you can record it on every other device. But (0:38:55) Al: want to add that feature. I’m not sure why, but… Yeah. (0:39:03) Kelly: that was also one of the ones where I don’t have achievements, and I know there’s achievements (0:39:06) Kelly: for that game. Yeah. (0:39:07) Al: And some games add them into the game itself, like they’ll add, but that’s a lot of work. (0:39:11) Al: The whole point of the achievements in Steam and stuff is that they’re very easy to do, (0:39:16) Al: because it’s literally just, “Here’s my list of achievements,” and then you put in the code to say (0:39:20) Al: when the achievement is hit. Yeah, because it doesn’t have… Switch doesn’t have an achievement (0:39:22) Kelly: Oh, so that’s the issue is that it’s just hard to add them in on the switch, like the switch doesn’t make it okay. (0:39:29) Al: system. So if you want to have it on the Switch, you have to build it entirely yourself. And it (0:39:34) Kelly: Uh, I’m dumb. I understand now. (0:39:34) Al: And it would be only within game because there are a. (0:39:38) Al: Couple of games that have done that they’ve recreated the achievement system in their own game, but then it only works for that game and it takes a lot of work to do that. (0:39:40) Kelly: Mm hmm. (0:39:42) Kelly: Mm hmm. (0:39:46) Kelly: Yeah, okay, that makes sense. That makes a lot more sense. (0:39:47) Al: Whereas with steam and with Xbox and with PlayStation there’s a piece of code that they can call which just does the achievement for them so. (0:39:54) Kelly: Okay, I knew it was something to do with how it set up, but I never looked into the actual basic why behind it (0:40:02) Al: They’ve added to upgrade system as well. (0:40:04) Al: They’ve added food, they’ve added house upgrade system, they’ve added new (0:40:07) Al: furniture, they’ve added guests and better NPCs, one of which looks like a xenomorph. (0:40:12) Al: Not sure why. (0:40:14) Kelly: I like his jacket. (0:40:14) Al: Legally distinct, legally distinct xenomorph. (0:40:20) Al: Yeah, it looks like a pretty big update. (0:40:21) Al: I haven’t played this game yet. I do want that. (0:40:24) Kelly: Yeah, it’s on my list of games to check out. I just I tried to avoid most early access, honestly. (0:40:33) Al: Good thing we’re not talking about an early access today then (0:40:39) Kelly: Is it generally? (0:40:42) Al: So that’s the game updates. (0:40:43) Al: We now have three new games to talk about, (0:40:47) Al: the first of which actually, no, let’s go the other way around. (0:40:49) Al: Let’s talk about Dreamland Farm first, (0:40:51) Al: because I think this will be the quickest to talk about. (0:40:55) Al: Dreamland Farm. (0:40:56) Al: Since childhood, you’ve dreamed of being close to nature, (0:40:59) Al: but being born and raised in the city stood in the way of that. (0:41:02) Al: The closer you were to adulthood, the more time you spent with your grandma, (0:41:05) Al: who showed you all around her own farm, from crops to berries and mushrooms, (0:41:09) Al: everything she knew, she taught you, she prepared you to be her (0:41:12) Al: successor. I mean that’s just every farming game. I don’t know. I don’t know. And what (0:41:16) Kelly: - Yeah, why do they all do that? (0:41:19) Al: I find really interesting is like, so if you have a farming game, the description should (0:41:25) Al: tell you what’s different about it. Don’t be like, oh, it’s a farming game. It’s like, (0:41:27) Kelly: Yeah. This time it’s your uncle and not your grandpa. (0:41:28) Al: yeah, we know that, right? It’s like, if you have, yeah, exactly, exactly. It’s like, come (0:41:36) Al: on. Let’s not, let’s not pretend. This one looks… (0:41:42) Al: Pretty… I don’t see anything unique in this, personally. (0:41:46) Kelly: I only gave it a cursory glance and it does look pretty. (0:41:52) Kelly: It doesn’t look like it’s breaking any boxes or molds or whatever though. (0:41:56) Al: But equally I also didn’t think about Fields of Mistria and didn’t want to play that until I decided, until it got a lot of buzz and I was like okay it’s time to play this one, you know, like, sometimes you can’t tell without playing it, which is a PR problem, obviously. (0:42:12) Kelly: Which goes back to your point of pointing out the differences (0:42:14) Kelly: and not the similarities. (0:42:19) Kelly: That’s what you need to get in touch with all the devs (0:42:22) Kelly: about is changing their PR management. (0:42:26) Al: I will be your PR. (0:42:29) Al: No, no, I will not. (0:42:32) Al: That is very much a conflict of interests. (0:42:36) Al: This one interestingly, so it’s now it’s on Switch and Xbox, it is not on Steam, which (0:42:41) Al: is interesting. (0:42:42) Kelly: Oh, that feels so backwards. (0:42:43) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:42:47) Al: I wonder why. (0:42:48) Kelly: I wonder right too, especially if it’s on x. (0:42:49) Al: Yeah, because it’s not like it’s they had an exclusivity deal with Switch, because then (0:42:54) Al: and they wouldn’t be on Xbox. (0:42:57) Al: And the Xbox version did come out like a week after the Switch version. (0:43:01) Al: That’s not long enough for it to be an exclusivity. (0:43:04) Kelly: - No. (laughs) (0:43:04) Al: So yeah, weird. (0:43:07) Al: I don’t know, I’ll keep an eye on it. (0:43:09) Kelly: Hopefully it’s good. (0:43:09) Kelly: Hopefully they got something unique in it. (0:43:11) Al: Yeah, yeah, hopefully. (0:43:13) Al: Hopefully. (0:43:14) Al: It’s 10 pounds. (0:43:16) Al: Is it 15 dollars? (0:43:18) Al: Probably. (0:43:20) Kelly: Probably something like that, yeah. (0:43:22) Al: So it feels cheap enough to like buy it and play it. (0:43:26) Al: And if you’re not bothered by it, then it’s not the end of the world sort of thing. (0:43:30) Al: Next we have RATOPIA. (0:43:33) Al: RATOPIA. (0:43:35) Al: I keep wanting to say RATOPIA, but it’s only one T, so it’s definitely RATOPIA. (0:43:38) Kelly: Uh, to be fair, I say rat topia (0:43:41) Al: Yeah, but there’s no second T. (0:43:42) Kelly: Well, he sounds better I know but it’s funner to say that way (0:43:47) Kelly: For the podcast, I will say rat topia (0:43:50) Al: RATOPIA. RATOPIA is a new game that is combined first of all, a new game, come on. What is (0:44:01) Al: that? I just feel like sometimes I feel like this this podcast is just me editing and critiquing (0:44:07) Al: the descriptions of games. Is a new game. Yeah, we know that. Don’t add that in. Also (0:44:13) Al: just a point, you don’t need to put your name in the description because your name is elsewhere (0:44:17) Al: on the page, right? Just right. (0:44:19) Kelly: Uh, you sound like somebody’s like third grade English teacher critiquing their (0:44:20)

Al and Kelly talk about the story of Dave the Diver Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:03:12: What Has Kelly Been Up To 00:04:19: Tangent 1 - The Scots Language 00:11:53: What Has Al Been Up To 00:21:22: News 00:35:50: Tangent 2 - Rockstar North 00:44:55: Dave The Diver Upcoming DLCs 00:53:45: Kelly’s Mechanics Thoughts 01:02:31: Dave The Diver Story 01:16:01: Tangent 3 - Game Hyperfocus 01:18:44: Dave Story Conclusion 01:29:12: Outro Links Research Story “0.9” Update Sprittea “Moving & Grooving” Update Loddlenaut “Goddles” Update Outlanders “Wandering Star” DLC Rune Factory: Guardians of Azuma Trailer Dave the Diver Upcoming DLCs Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Al: Hello Divers, and welcome to another episode of The Harvest Season. (0:00:34) Al: My name is Al, and we are here today to talk about Cottagecore games. (0:00:36) Kelly: and my name is kelly (0:00:41) Kelly: whoo (0:00:42) Al: We’ve not come to a conclusion on whether David the Diver is a Cottagecore game or not. (0:00:45) Kelly: maybe it’s like a bungalow, like you know bungalows are the the the cottages of beach towns (0:00:50) Al: Well, the problem there, right, so if Cottagecore games are for lesbians, what are bungalow games (0:00:57) Al: for? (0:00:58) Al: games for them. (0:00:59) Kelly: non-binary people (0:01:01) Al: I’ll take it. (0:01:04) Al: All right, excellent. (0:01:04) Kelly: I don’t know! (0:01:07) Al: Fantastic. Well, OK, so I think it is a college school game, right? (0:01:11) Al: Because, yes, there are some, like, stakes and stuff, but there’s fewer stakes, I think, than, say, Stardew Valley. (0:01:18) Kelly: Yeah, and I would say also it’s like you still have like the mines in Stardew Valley? (0:01:23) Al: Exactly. Yeah, that’s what I’m meaning. The mines in Stardew Valley are definitely scarier (0:01:28) Al: than most in here. But you can’t ignore nighttime entirely if you want to. The only stuff that (0:01:28) Kelly: Yeah, I would say that the nighttime is the scary part. (0:01:39) Al: only spawns in the night are some fish, which you want if you want to collect the collection, (0:01:44) Al: and a few optional side quests. I don’t think any part of the story is required for you (0:01:49) Al: to go out at night? Or was there one, maybe? (0:01:50) Kelly: I think there was, unless I’m mistaken, I think there was one with the more eels. (0:01:53) Al: There was one. Yeah. (0:01:57) Kelly: It’s been a while. I played that part I think a year ago now so that’s (0:02:03) Kelly: been a while, but I think one part was required and then after that it was like (0:02:07) Kelly: you don’t have to do this again. (0:02:10) Al: So yeah, I think it counts. If Stardew counts this counts. (0:02:13) Kelly: Yeah, I think so. You have farms, you have little (0:02:18) Al: You do, you do. (0:02:18) Kelly: Fish tanks and chickens. (0:02:21) Al: Yeah, the chickens is the most un-feature-rich thing in the game. (0:02:27) Kelly: Yeah. (0:02:28) Al: Chickens exist and if you turn up you get an egg. Great, congrats. (0:02:32) Kelly: You can name them, but you can’t pet them. (0:02:36) Al: All right, cool. So we are here to talk about (0:02:40) Al: well, we’re here for the final episode of Dave the Diver Month. (0:02:44) Al: Two weeks late. (0:02:49) Al: And I’ve got Kelly along to talk about the story for Dave the Diver. (0:02:52) Kelly: Hey, um, I loved this game. I got it, I think the day it came out, and I played it until my fingers hurt. (0:03:01) Kelly: So, weirdo, oh, yeah, yeah. (0:03:03) Al: So hopefully we’ll have lots to talk about in the main topic then. (0:03:08) Al: Exciting. So before that, we obviously have some news. First of all, Kelly, what have you been (0:03:14) Kelly: I have been actually getting ready for a trip to Scotland. (0:03:21) Al: Woo! (0:03:21) Kelly: Woo! (0:03:22) Kelly: But besides that, I’ve been playing Day of the Diver to catch up on the DLCs, playing (0:03:29) Kelly: Solitaire because that is my brain-dead dissociation game, and I’ve actually started doing Dooling (0:03:38) Kelly: Go again, which has been interesting. (0:03:40) Al: In fact, what are you learning? (0:03:42) Kelly: I decided to try Japanese, ‘cause I– (0:03:44) Al: Okay. (0:03:44) Kelly: I’ve tried Spanish, I’ve done German, I’ve done Italian. (0:03:48) Al: So you’re not trying to learn any Scottish Gaelic, or I think Scots is on there as well. (0:03:52) Kelly: No. (0:03:56) Kelly: I didn’t even think about that, to be honest. (0:03:58) Kelly: Which would have been interesting, ‘cause I was just like, (0:04:00) Kelly: “Oh, let me try something that’s completely different than, you know, any of the, like, uh, Latin languages, or German language.” (0:04:09) Al: Germanic. No, it’s just Gallic. They don’t have Scots. I thought they had, I thought (0:04:10) Kelly: Yeah. (0:04:15) Al: I’d seen some where they have Scots, but they don’t. Is it? So, well, okay, so this is gonna (0:04:18) Kelly: Interesting. Can you speak, Scotts? (0:04:22) Al: be a whole tangent, but we’re going for it anyway. I’m just checking. Yeah, Google doesn’t (0:04:27) Al: have it either, it just has Gallic. They all call them Scots Gallic, which is technically (0:04:32) Al: not true, because Scots is a language and Gallic is a language. Gallic is a language (0:04:36) Kelly: Mm. (0:04:39) Al: longer than Scotland has existed. But anyway, that’s not neither here nor there. So I definitely (0:04:44) Al: can’t speak Gallic. I can speak some Scots, but a lot of the Scots that I know is not (0:04:51) Al: stuff that I knew was a different language. So when I was, a lot of people in Scotland (0:04:54) Kelly: Okay. (0:04:57) Al: grow up learning what some people refer to as Scottish English, which is like a weird (0:05:03) Al: amalgamation amalgamation of English and Scots. And so (0:05:08) Kelly: So kind of like Spanglish, like when people grow up in like, you know, like mixing Spanish and English words in the theme. (0:05:09) Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it’s when you start to like encounter people outside, you (0:05:20) Al: realise, oh wait, this word that I’ve been using is a word that is not English, right? (0:05:26) Al: And to a lot of people, they would just think it’s, oh, it’s just a dialect word, right? (0:05:30) Al: But it’s from a different language. We just use it not in… So I would never use an entire (0:05:36) Al: sentence in Scots because that’s just not how I grew up. (0:05:39) Al: But a lot of the words that I would use, obviously not on the podcast, not when I’m (0:05:46) Al: working because I don’t work with many Scottish people, but like in my day-to-day life, there (0:05:51) Al: are a lot of words that I would use that would be Scots. Like for example, in the classic (0:05:56) Al: Scottish way, I’m going to use a weather word, a word about the weather. So the weather here (0:06:02) Al: today is drich, and that is a Scots word that means, it basically means overcast, right? (0:06:09) Al: Like it’s cloudy, it’s just not nice, it’s like it’s not sunny, but it’s not like pouring down (0:06:14) Al: with rain, it’s just, it’s drich. So that is an example of a Scots word that I would use (0:06:16) Kelly: okay (0:06:20) Al: most days because of the weather. It does, yeah, it’s a d, drich. (0:06:21) Kelly: is that does it start with a D or a B so so is it kind of like it almost reminds (0:06:28) Kelly: me of like dreary you know what I mean in this sense and I would kind of use (0:06:29) Al: Yeah, it’s, yeah, yeah, it’s kind of, it definitely, yeah, I would say, yeah, they’re almost synonyms. (0:06:33) Kelly: that word to (0:06:39) Al: I would say that drich, I think, can be used in other contexts, whereas drich entirely would be (0:06:42) Kelly: Outside of weather. Yeah. (0:06:45) Al: about the weather. So like you would talk about, oh, that’s a drichy meeting, or people were drich, (0:06:46) Kelly: No, that totally makes sense. Is- so he’s like… (0:06:51) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:06:52) Al: or whatever, but you couldn’t say something else with drich other than the weather. So yeah, that, (0:06:56) Kelly: Okay, that makes sense. That’s so interesting. Is… (0:06:59) Kelly: like, I’m gonna totally butcher this, but like, (0:07:03) Kelly: can I? Like, how do you say that? C-A-N-N-A-E? Is that considered Scots? (0:07:10) Al: Oh canny. Yeah, that would be another. So this is where we get into some technicalities of (0:07:10) Kelly: Yes. Yes. Yes. (0:07:17) Al: where English comes from. So modern English is itself, it comes from not just old English, (0:07:28) Al: but it also comes from old Scots, and old is, you know, auld lang syne, that’s A-U-L-D, (0:07:32) Kelly: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. (0:07:35) Al: that’s Scots for old. And so a lot of English words… (0:07:40) Al: Scots are, you know, very similar to Scots words because, you know, both languages come (0:07:45) Al: from both old languages, Old English and Old Scots. (0:07:47) Kelly: Okay (0:07:48) Kelly: So it’s kind of like it’s like Portuguese and Spanish and like German and like Dutch kind of where it’s like you can (0:07:49) Al: Yeah, yeah. A very… exactly. Yeah, and you wouldn’t know every word and these sorts of (0:07:55) Kelly: Understand them, but they’re not exactly the same (0:08:00) Al: things, but some words you could maybe guess at, like “old”. Most people would be able (0:08:05) Al: to guess what that means, stuff like that. Different words. (0:08:06) Kelly: Mm-hmm. Yeah, in the context. (0:08:10) Al: Clearly different language, but, you know, you can kind of guess what it means because (0:08:14) Al: they’re similar languages, absolutely. But, like, one example of the Old English/Old Scots (0:08:19) Al: thing is, so you’ve got fox, the animal, and you know what the female fox is called? So (0:08:26) Kelly: I feel like I do, but not right now. (0:08:28) Al: it’s a vixen. So fox with an F and vixen with a V. I can never remember which one it is, (0:08:36) Al: in one of Old Scots and Old English. It’s Fox and Fixing. (0:08:40) Al: They can, they can, they can. The other interesting thing is that there’s also a lost letter from (0:08:50) Kelly: and v and f kind of can sound the same too, you know, yeah. (0:08:59) Al: Scots that is not used anymore thanks to the anglification of keyboards. So when (0:09:10) Al: typewriters started becoming a thing, they were obviously, they used the standard QWERTY (0:09:14) Al: layout that we’re using now. And the letter is called a yod, and it kind of looks like (0:09:20) Al: a cross between a z and a y. And it has a sound like a y sound. It’s kind of like a (0:09:22) Kelly: Okay. (0:09:24) Kelly: Okay. (0:09:26) Kelly: Okay. (0:09:29) Al: y, but it’s not quite the same. And I can give you an example of a word that this would (0:09:33) Al: be used in. Do you know the company that does all the logistics at airports? (0:09:40) Al: And they’re called Menzies, do you know them? M-E-N-C-I-E-S. So they do a lot of, like they (0:09:47) Al: are a huge worldwide company that do logistics at airports. So if you’re at an airport and (0:09:52) Al: you look out on airside and you see, you know, people with their high vis on, in most airports (0:09:59) Al: in the West, they will be Menzies employees. Which is actually fun fact, that company started (0:10:07) Al: out as a paper shop in Scotland. (0:10:10) Al: But that zed is not actually originally a zed, it was actually a yod. (0:10:10) Kelly: Oh, that’s cool. (0:10:18) Kelly: Okay. (0:10:19) Al: And so the word ‘menzies’ shouldn’t actually be said menzies, it said ‘mingies’. (0:10:25) Al: Yeah, and so there’s a lot of words, a lot of places in Scotland that you might notice this (0:10:30) Al: when you’re over here, a lot of places in Scotland that have zeds in their name in the middle, (0:10:34) Al: and it’s not actually a zed, it’s a yod. So there’s a place in near Glasgow, (0:10:40) Al: that’s called Calane, and that’s C-U-L-Z-E-A-N, but of course that zed was a yod, (0:10:47) Al: which is why it’s Calane, not Cal-Zane. (0:10:50) Kelly: Okay, so you guys all just acknowledge that it should be pronounced (0:10:56) Al: We just ignore the fact that it’s a zed, because that’s what you learn. (0:10:59) Kelly: Yeah (0:10:59) Al: I didn’t know for a long time that it wasn’t originally a zed. (0:11:03) Kelly: Okay (0:11:04) Al: But yeah, we don’t pronounce it like that. (0:11:06) Kelly: Okay, sorry to derail (0:11:07) Al: But yeah, so you will. (0:11:10) Al: So it’s fine, I’ll put this in specifically as a section on the Scots (0:11:15) Al: language for some reason. But yeah, so you might hear some people, (0:11:18) Al: if you ever see the paper shop that still does exist, Menzies, (0:11:21) Al: some people will call it Menzies, and some people call it Menzies, (0:11:25) Kelly: Oh, very interesting, that’s pretty cool. (0:11:25) Al: because it depends on who you are. (0:11:28) Al: There used to be a politician in Scotland calls Menzies Campbell, (0:11:30) Al: and nobody would ever call him Menzies Campbell, (0:11:32) Al: despite the fact that it’s spelled the exact same way. (0:11:34) Kelly: That was a fun fact. (0:11:35) Al: But they still call the paper shop Menzies for some reason. (0:11:38) Al: So Ming is fun fact. (0:11:40) Al: There you go. That’s your Scott’s language history on the Cottagecore podcast, (0:11:46) Al: The Harvest Season. (0:11:48) Kelly: I’m just really good at derailing the podcast, what can I say. (0:11:52) Al: Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with that. (0:11:55) Kelly: What have you been up to, Al, besides history lessons? (0:11:56) Al: What have I been up to? (0:12:00) Al: I have been playing, well kind of playing, Harvest Moon, Home Sweet Home, and Coraline 1.1. (0:12:10) Al: I quite often, if I’m like trying to play a game for a podcast and I’ve not quite got (0:12:14) Al: into it yet, I will feel guilty about that and not play any other games. (0:12:22) Al: So I have played about two in-game days of Harvest Moon Home Sweet Home. (0:12:28) Kelly: That’s it! (0:12:28) Al: That’s it. (0:12:29) Al: So we’ll see. (0:12:30) Al: Hopefully I’ll manage to play enough before the podcast that I’m recording in a week. (0:12:36) Kelly: It’s crunch time! (0:12:38) Al: - It’s crunch time. (0:12:40) Al: So we’ll see. (0:12:40) Al: The annoying thing I also found out is that, (0:12:42) Al: so it’s, I don’t know if you’re aware of this game, Kelly, (0:12:45) Al: but it is a mobile game. (0:12:48) Al: So it’s on Android and iOS. (0:12:50) Kelly: the harvest moon one (0:12:51) Al: The new Harvest Moon game, yeah. (0:12:53) Al: And they haven’t enabled cloud safe for it. (0:13:00) Al: So I installed and started playing it on my 13 inch iPad. (0:13:00) Kelly: Oh. (0:13:05) Al: And that is now the only device I can play this game on. (0:13:05) Kelly: Oh. (0:13:09) Kelly: That’s… that’s so… wrong. (0:13:10) Al: I just ate is bizarre, because a special. (0:13:16) Kelly: Especially on like a harv– like, I’m assuming the Harvest Moon game, you know, it has a lot going on. (0:13:21) Al: Yep, you should be here. (0:13:21) Kelly: You’re dedicating a good amount of time to playing it. (0:13:25) Kelly: Yeah, like, you have items, you have things that you’re building up, like, why would– (0:13:30) Kelly: Like, don’t most of these games have that built in by now? (0:13:34) Al: Yeah. Yeah. And it’s not even you don’t even need to do much. You just need to say yes, you can do it. (0:13:44) Kelly: Yeah, and especially with I feel like I’m sure they’re different games, but like just having like knowing that animal (0:13:52) Kelly: crossing (0:13:53) Kelly: Is whatever Pacicapia is like shutting down their app? (0:13:54) Al: Bocky camp (0:13:57) Al: Yeah (0:13:58) Kelly: Wouldn’t you kind of want to make sure that your app is there to like fill the void? (0:14:02) Kelly: - I enjoyed. (0:14:03) Al: Anyway, so that’s that that’s another reason why I’ve not played a lot of it yet is because I can only play it on one (0:14:08) Al: Device and it’s the 13 inch iPad which I like as a device, but it’s not the best for a mobile games, obviously (0:14:15) Kelly: Is it annoying to like, hold for… Is that what the issue is or is it? (0:14:19) Al: That’s part that’s part of the issue although I do have it on a (0:14:22) Al: I stand at my desk, so I (0:14:24) Kelly: Mm. (0:14:24) Al: don’t have to hold it when I’m at my desk, but that means that realistically the only (0:14:27) Al: time I’m playing this game is when I’m working. Which is not a great way to play a game, right? (0:14:29) Kelly: Yeah. (0:14:35) Al: But anyway, whatever. It’s especially annoying because they haven’t disabled playing it on (0:14:39) Al: Macs as well, so now you can play iPad and iPhone stuff on Macs, which is great. It’s (0:14:46) Al: a great feature, but it means that I’ve installed the game on my Mac, but I’d have to start (0:14:52) Al: and you saved to play it there. (0:14:54) Al: Like I was like, this is great because there are like so many ways for me to play this. (0:14:59) Al: I can play it on my iPad during work. (0:15:00) Al: I can play it on my Mac when I’m sitting in front of the TV. (0:15:04) Al: I can play it on my iPad mini when I’m in bed and I’m like, nope, you get one of those. (0:15:09) Kelly: Yeah jokes on you. That’s annoying. (0:15:10) Al: One of those. (0:15:11) Al: Yeah, I should have just gone with the Android version, but the problem is the Android version (0:15:16) Al: crashed when it first came out. (0:15:18) Al: So I couldn’t play it for, in fact, I don’t think it’s, I think it’s still not working (0:15:18) Kelly: So they kind of, they, they dug you into a little corner. (0:15:29) Al: So, I’ve done a little bit of Carlisle in 1.1 as well, because I hadn’t been playing (0:15:34) Al: that yet, so that’s that, and I have gotten very much back into Marvel Snap. (0:15:40) Kelly: Whoa, I haven’t heard that name in a while. (0:15:42) Al: Yeah, so it was, oh they make, they make loads of real decisions, but they’re quite good (0:15:46) Kelly: Did they, like, fix the game? (0:15:47) Kelly: Because I know they were having… they made some kind of weird decisions last winter. (0:15:54) Kelly: Okay. (0:15:54) Al: at fixing these things quickly, like you get multiple changes a week. (0:15:56) Kelly: Okay. (0:15:58) Kelly: Okay. (0:15:59) Al: So, if there’s something that’s completely killing the game, they kill that really quickly. (0:16:04) Al: They’re pretty good at that. (0:16:06) Al: No, we’re at the end of a season, and the next season has like a new type of ability, (0:16:12) Al: which is the first time they’ve done that since launch, so that’s exciting. (0:16:15) Al: And a lot of new Spider People cards, which is also cool. (0:16:21) Al: I do like some Spider People. (0:16:23) Kelly: when did they release marvel snap? was it like around this time last year? (0:16:24) Al: But it’s only a year, I don’t know. (0:16:29) Kelly: right? is it older than that? (0:16:29) Al: It can’t only be a year, really. (0:16:32) Al: No, two years, October 22. (0:16:33) Kelly: okay okay. I didn’t think it was only a year old but I was like I don’t I don’t keep up with that (0:16:39) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:16:40) Kelly: game so there’s also that. there just happened to be a streamer I was watching who was like obsessed (0:16:46) Kelly: with it for a while. (0:16:47) Al: I really love it, because it’s, I like card games, but one, they’re so hard to keep up (0:16:55) Al: with all the cards, right? (0:16:57) Al: And the good thing about Marvel Snap is so many. (0:17:00) Al: There’s many different types of playing are viable. (0:17:02) Kelly: So it’s not like you get one or two meta that are like (0:17:06) Al: Exactly, exactly. (0:17:06) Al: There’s like, you know, Destroy decks are really good just now. (0:17:10) Al: Move decks are pretty good just now. (0:17:12) Al: There’s also like a couple of other types of decks that you can use based on multiple cards. (0:17:18) Al: Like I have played four different decks and won with them over the last two days. (0:17:23) Al: So it’s, yeah, it’s pretty good. (0:17:25) Al: Discard decks are still quite good as well. (0:17:27) Al: Like there’s lots that’s working just now. (0:17:30) Al: And yet there are a few cards that if you don’t get them, you’re unlikely to get up to like (0:17:35) Al: level 100, rank 100. But I’m unlikely to get there anyway. And it’s still fun. Like it takes a long (0:17:41) Al: time to build up the ranks anyway. So, you know, it takes it only now are my rank 60 now. (0:17:49) Al: And, you know, granted it’s only been, I’ve only been playing for two weeks of this season, (0:17:57) Al: which is about half of it, but… (0:18:00) Al: It’s like, I… Yeah, I think it would have been unlikely for me to get to 100 anyway, but… (0:18:06) Al: So yeah, and also the actual matches are simpler than most card games. (0:18:11) Kelly: Okay. (0:18:12) Al: So you’ve only got a few things to think about while still having a lot of different strategies. (0:18:17) Al: And obviously they’re fast. (0:18:20) Al: You know, you can get a match and done in a cut in, you know, the longest matches take five. (0:18:20) Kelly: Yeah, no, it seems like, you know, I I’m not a big Marvel person, but it seems like a fun game with a lot of creativity and like options. (0:18:34) Kelly: And the fact that they’re still actively updating it, I think says a lot. (0:18:34) Al: Yeah. Yeah. It’s obviously making money. Um, so yeah, I mean, basically the reason why (0:18:42) Kelly: Yeah, that too. (0:18:46) Al: I’m back into it is because, um, Hannah, uh, from the ISE slack, um, she walk got, she (0:18:54) Al: came over and was like, Oh, I’m interested in this because I hear that it’s quite similar (0:18:58) Al: to what the new Pokemon trading card app will be like. So I want to see how this works before (0:19:02) Kelly: Oh interesting, smart of Pokemon. (0:19:04) Al: to see how similar it is and compare it to that. And so when she said that, well, yeah, (0:19:12) Al: exactly. It will be interesting to see how much it actually is because we don’t know much details (0:19:16) Al: about how the battles will work. Um, but it will be very clever if, if it is, if it works out well. (0:19:22) Al: Um, but because she came through and did that, I was like, Oh, now I really want to play (0:19:28) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:19:28) Al: and I haven’t stopped playing since. So that was two weeks ago. (0:19:33) Kelly: I… I trust me. I understand. I understand. (0:19:37) Kelly: I’m sure you’ll get out eventually. (0:19:39) Al: Yeah, this is my problem, is I don’t play games casually, I play games until I stop (0:19:40) Kelly: You’ll be free. (0:19:46) Al: playing them, and it is my life until I stop playing them, and then I never think about (0:19:52) Kelly: Yeah, literally, I completely understand. (0:19:55) Kelly: That’s why I’m not allowed to play stuff like Cafe Mix anymore. (0:20:01) Kelly: I like… it was a phone game, you know? (0:20:05) Kelly: But it was a phone game that, uh… (0:20:07) Kelly: Once I started playing events, I got really hooked, (0:20:10) Kelly: and I was good at the events, and I kept winning events, (0:20:12) Kelly: and then I would get money out of it. (0:20:12) Al: Yeah, yeah, my (0:20:14) Kelly: And it was just like, it was like, you know, daily. (0:20:16) Kelly: It was a daily thing where I’d go in, I’d play five games, I’d do this, (0:20:20) Kelly: and then the events. (0:20:22) Kelly: were like, “You have to play all weekend, otherwise you won’t win,” and I’d be like, “Well, I have to win.” (0:20:27) Kelly: Um… (0:20:28) Kelly: So now I’m just not allowed to play that game. (0:20:30) Kelly: But I do that with all games, that’s why I played Day of the Diver until my fingers hurt, you know? (0:20:33) Kelly: That’s, uh… (0:20:34) Al: Yeah, yeah, I just I never got into cafe mix because I just didn’t like the gameplay like it felt too imprecise (0:20:35) Kelly: That’s what I do. (0:20:39) Kelly: Yeah. (0:20:41) Kelly: It’s… it is. (0:20:43) Kelly: It’s very sloppy. (0:20:44) Kelly: Which I think can work in your favor if you know how to use it correctly. (0:20:50) Al: Yeah, probably, but I didn’t want to. I didn’t want to learn. You know, it’s like, I loved like (0:20:52) Kelly: Yeah, no, that’s fair, that’s fair. (0:20:56) Al: shuffle, Pokemon shuffle, which is not, I know it’s not the same game, but it’s, it’s like similar (0:21:01) Kelly: It’s very similar, yeah. (0:21:01) Al: ideas in some ways. But I much preferred that because it was very clear, like, it’s precise, (0:21:07) Al: right? This place goes to that piece and that’s it. Whereas with Cafe May, it’s like, oh, you’re (0:21:11) Al: kind of like circling. And it’s like, I didn’t. (0:21:14) Kelly: Yeah, no, it’s it’s definitely very different in actual gameplay (0:21:20) Al: Cool. So that’s what we’ve been up to and a (0:21:22) Kelly: Yeah (0:21:24) Al: tangent on the Scottish language. (0:21:27) Al: Now we’re going to talk about some news, some game news. (0:21:30) Al: First of all, we have the zero point nine update of Research Story is out now. (0:21:35) Al: So this includes a new NPC, (0:21:39) Al: lots of extra content for the NPCs, a cooking system and your classic on a daily (0:21:47) Al: Cottagecore game, the daily summary, when you (0:21:50) Al: go to sleep, gives you everything that you’ve done in that game. (0:21:50) Kelly: I laugh, but honestly I need things like those. (0:21:55) Al: Well, that’s the thing. And it’s like you have, like, especially in farming games where (0:21:56) Kelly: Like when games don’t have that, sometimes I’m like, “hmm, what was I doing? (0:22:05) Al: you are selling a bunch of stuff on a daily basis, it’s good to know one, how much you (0:22:06) Kelly: Mmhmm. (0:22:09) Al: actually sold, and two, how that break broke down. You know, that was a key point of Stardew (0:22:11) Kelly: Yeah. (0:22:17) Al: is trying to figure out what was the most efficient stuff. (0:22:20) Al: This is really nice in that it’s building up into other things as well, so it’s like, (0:22:26) Al: “Oh, here are the people you talk to, and here’s the XP you gained,” and that sort of stuff. (0:22:32) Kelly: Yeah, no, it definitely does help, and I think also with farming games it’s so easy to get sidetracked on things. (0:22:38) Kelly: So it’s, like, good to see at the end of the day, like, “Oh, I actually did not sell as much stuff that I wanted to,” (0:22:44) Kelly: or “Didn’t talk to the right amount of people,” or, you know, “It’s two days until I have to buy something that’s really expensive, I better start selling a bunch.” (0:22:53) Al: They have also released their roadmap to 1.0, so they’re getting close. They have two more updates (0:22:59) Al: before the 1.0. That is 0.10 should be coming out at the end of September. That is player (0:23:06) Al: customization. 0.11 should be coming out at the end of the year, and that is orange hearts and (0:23:14) Al: shimmers. The orange heart events that will be for NPCs. And I don’t know what shimmers means. (0:23:20) Al: Oh, shiny creatures right in front of me. (0:23:23) Al: I always got to translate into Pokemon. (0:23:27) Kelly: Translate, yeah. (0:23:31) Al: And then the 1.0 will be coming out in Q1 next year. (0:23:36) Al: So if you’ve been looking for 1.0 to finally get into this game, (0:23:40) Al: it’ll be next year, be warned. (0:23:41) Kelly: Have you played the, um, is there an Early Access? (0:23:45) Al: Yeah, that’s what this is. (0:23:46) Al: I haven’t played it. (0:23:47) Al: I know that Cody has played it, and I think Bev played it as well. (0:23:50) Al: and they had a chat about it on one of the episodes. (0:23:53) Al: And they both really liked it. So, I don’t know. (0:23:55) Kelly: It looks cute. I like the note about married life events because I feel like a lot of these games kind of end events once you marry your characters of choice. So that’s nice. (0:24:02) Al: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, not looking at anyone in particular, Coral Island. (0:24:11) Al: Uh, Spirity have also got an update out now. The moving and grooving update, um, was animations. (0:24:20) Al: Hahaha. Hmm. Yeah, did you play it? (0:24:22) Kelly: This game is so upsetting to me because I really wanted to like it so bad. (0:24:27) Kelly: So like, seeing this update, it’s like, these look so funny, and like, they look so silly but it’s like, I’m not gonna go back to play like this. (0:24:34) Al: This is the problem is like you can like everything about a game, but if you don’t actually enjoy the core loop of the game (0:24:40) Al: It doesn’t really matter (0:24:40) Kelly: Mm-hmm (0:24:42) Kelly: Yeah, and I gave it I think I put like 30 hours in or something so I like I gave it a good (0:24:45) Al: Oh, wow, that’s more than I put in I may be I may be put in ten hours (0:24:48) Kelly: Try (0:24:51) Kelly: I wanted to like it so bad, but what can you do? (0:24:53) Al: Yeah (0:24:54) Al: Yeah, I wonder how much of it is just like a personal preference thing, right? Like some people just don’t like certain times of games (0:25:00) Kelly: Yeah (0:25:02) Kelly: I (0:25:03) Kelly: Mean, I don’t know cuz I love games like this. Typically. I wish I could I play this like back in (0:25:10) Kelly: fall so I can’t remember exactly what it was, but I know some things were just like (0:25:15) Kelly: kind of really repetitive in like a (0:25:19) Al: I think that the repetitive bit is probably my problem, is that the bathhouse you did upgrade, (0:25:27) Al: but it didn’t really feel like you were progressing. Whereas with farming games, (0:25:33) Al: you go from like a two by two square that you’ve made of turnips to thousands of crops over your (0:25:41) Al: farm, and tens of animals giving you millions every season. And it didn’t feel like there was (0:25:49) Al: level of progression to aim for. And that was what I think really lost me about it. (0:25:56) Kelly: Yeah, I agree because I updated like I think as much as I possibly could in the bath house, too (0:26:03) Al: but it’s like oh now I have three baths it’s like oh is there right okay (0:26:06) Kelly: Yeah, there’s actually a second floor yeah, but it doesn’t add that much (0:26:15) Al: yeah anyway but if you’ve if you enjoyed the game there’s more updates to it and you know (0:26:17) Kelly: But yeah (0:26:21) Al: as you say these animations are pretty goofy and fun and add some more (0:26:24) Kelly: Yeah, they look so silly and cute, you know. (0:26:26) Al: they add some more character to the npc’s next we have a new update for (0:26:33) Al: Laudelnot coming out on the 19th of September and oh boy do I hate the names (0:26:38) Al: that they give these updates this one is the Goddles update what’s a Goddle you might say (0:26:45) Al: that’s a good question this includes a new secret cave biome that houses three mysterious Goddles (0:26:52) Al: was this cavern forgotten by guppy what ancient abilities do these Goddles have (0:26:59) Al: I’m still not quite sure what I got all this is it the little (0:27:03) Al: like tree looking thing in this image, maybe. (0:27:06) Kelly: I don’t know. I think it’s cute that it’s like, oh, plant these to prevent pollination, uh, pollution, but you know, still it’s like, yeah, to your point, like, what is this made-up word? (0:27:20) Al: Yeah, I think this might be one of those updates that if you have played the game, which I (0:27:26) Al: haven’t yet, that you might be more interested in it. Yeah, I want to play this game at some (0:27:34) Kelly: It looks cute. I like whatever this aesthetic is called. I can’t think right now. (0:27:42) Al: Yes, I can’t remember either. They’ve all got fancy names. (0:27:44) Kelly: Yeah, but I like this game design. I think that (0:27:48) Kelly: style of animation is very cute and very fun for a little underwater game. Yeah. (0:27:51) Al: It works, it works, yeah it works well especially when all your creatures are axolotls, which (0:27:58) Kelly: Yes. (0:28:00) Al: the goofier an axolotl is, the cuter it is. (0:28:04) Kelly: That is true. That is, it is unbeatably cute looking. (0:28:10) Al: Next we have a new DLC for Outlanders, this is the Wandering Stars DLC, and I mean if (0:28:18) Al: you’ve played Outlanders you can look at it, I don’t really think we need to go into the (0:28:21) Al: details of this. (0:28:24) Al: Outlanders is a city builder game, so I’ll probably not play it, because every time I (0:28:29) Al: try and enjoy a city builder I just get frustrated with them, it’s not my kind of game. (0:28:34) Kelly: I get too into city builder kind of games and then it’s also really not enjoyable for me and like actually just stressful, so yeah. (0:28:42) Al: I think part of my problem, so I used to love City Builders, I was obsessed with SimCity2 (0:28:49) Al: so much, but I think part of the problem is that they never work well with controllers. (0:28:58) Al: They’re just not fun to play unless you have a mouse and keyboard, and that’s not how I (0:29:03) Al: game anymore in my life. (0:29:04) Kelly: It’s so funny because I’ve (0:29:04) Al: I am past the point. (0:29:07) Kelly: I’ve flipped from like being a controller only person to (0:29:13) Kelly: playing a lot of games mouse and keyboard now with like an occasional controller and (0:29:18) Kelly: It’s true a lot of these games are so different when you have the option to mouse and keyboard them (0:29:24) Kelly: Like there’s some games where it just makes such a big difference (0:29:26) Al: Yeah. Yeah. I just like, the way that I game nowadays is sitting on my sofa, watching TV (0:29:33) Al: with Rona, because that’s the time we get together and that’s how we like to spend our (0:29:34) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:29:38) Al: time together. So I’m not going to go, Oh, sorry, Rona. I’m going to go into the office (0:29:41) Al: and play games on my computer. Like, I’m just not going to do that. So, um, but I used to (0:29:47) Al: like when I was a student or whatever, I would, you know, be up till two, three. (0:29:56) Kelly: It’s tough (0:29:57) Al: Yeah. Finally, we have an update on what was called Runefactory Project Dragon and is now (0:29:59) Kelly: The sacrifices (0:30:10) Al: called Runefactory Guardians of Azuma. (0:30:14) Kelly: that’s a kind of oh wait so i’m sorry to cut you off but was it called rune factory project dragon (0:30:21) Al: Yes. So I don’t know if that was ever meant to be the title, because when you see project you (0:30:21) Kelly: and they changed that’s interesting (0:30:28) Al: quite often think that’s not the final title. So I suspect it was like we haven’t thought up a name, (0:30:30) Kelly: Yeah. (0:30:32) Kelly: Yeah. (0:30:35) Al: it’s about dragons, call it project dragon. But anyway, now they’ve got given an actual name, (0:30:43) Al: and they’ve said it’s coming out spring next year, and we have a trailer. So the interesting, (0:30:50) Al: Have you ever have you played (0:30:51) Al: any Renfactory games? (0:30:52) Kelly: No. I never got onto that bandwagon. I don’t know how I missed it. I think I was (0:30:53) Al: Okay, so (0:30:58) Kelly: just too dedicated to The Sims at that point in my life. (0:31:02) Al: fair enough. I mean, we’ve all been through our Sims phase. Again, interestingly, spent (0:31:09) Al: a lot of time playing Sims and Sims 2 specifically, and then not really since then. Probably for (0:31:14) Kelly: That’s fair. (0:31:15) Al: the same reason that they don’t really work very well with controllers. (0:31:17) Kelly: Oh no, they’re awful. Those games are the games that made me realize that not all games can be played the same way. (0:31:24) Al: Yeah, yeah. Like, I think it’s good that they add support for it because some people (0:31:29) Al: will have no other option and they would rather go through the pain and do it anyway. But (0:31:36) Al: anyway, so the interesting thing about this game is it says that it is a boldly reimagined (0:31:44) Al: gameplay. And the interesting thing is I watch this trailer and I’m not sure what the (0:31:49) Al: boldly reimagined gameplay is because previous Rune Factories are at a (0:31:54) Al: level. It’s basically Harvest Moon, but also combat. And this is Harvest Moon, but also combat. (0:32:04) Al: So, you know, you still have all the exact same farming stuff and then you go off and you fight (0:32:13) Al: creatures. Now granted, it does seem to be that some of the combat is dance-based rather than (0:32:21) Al: with a sword, but I… (0:32:22) Kelly: Interesting. So it’s like a rhythm? (0:32:24) Al: I don’t think it is rhythm-based, so this is the thing. I think it is just you press a button (0:32:31) Al: and you do a dance move, which isn’t fundamentally different than you press a button and you hit (0:32:37) Al: something with a sword. So… I don’t know. I don’t know the specifics of that. Well, this is the thing, (0:32:38) Kelly: So it’s still tur- like, it’s still… (0:32:43) Kelly: Are you gonna, like, start breakdancing at enemies? (0:32:47) Al: because the dancing… this is the weird bit. The dancing just seems to give you weapons that you (0:32:51) Al: you hit the enemies with. (0:32:54) Kelly: Are you dancing to the gods to, like, ask for a weapon? (0:32:54) Al: I just, Kelly, I have no idea. (0:33:00) Al: They’ve not shown any real gameplay. (0:33:03) Al: I guess my point is, I don’t know what the new part of this is. (0:33:07) Al: It just looks to me like the next Rune Factory. (0:33:10) Al: And there are some changes to it, and it’s a different story. (0:33:13) Al: And that’s all great, and people will love that. (0:33:15) Al: But like, why are you pretending that it’s something fundamentally different when it’s clearly not? (0:33:21) Kelly: Have there there’s been like a quite a few ruin factories, right? (0:33:24) Al: We’ve had five so far. (0:33:25) Kelly: And maybe they’re just lying to forget it I don’t know (0:33:31) Al: I mean, one person’s boldly reimagined is another one’s iterative change, right? (0:33:36) Kelly: Yeah, this seems like a pretty far reach though based on what you’ve said (0:33:42) Al: It does. (0:33:43) Al: This just, it feels like Rune Factory 5, but with some advances, which is fine. (0:33:48) Kelly: Maybe they’re… maybe they’re hiding it. (0:33:49) Al: I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, but why would you do that? (0:33:50) Kelly: Maybe they’re hiding the… (0:33:54) Al: It even says, “Restore your lost memories.” (0:33:56) Al: You still have Amnesia, like in every single Rune Factory game. (0:33:59) Kelly: Oh it’s one of those games, okay I see. (0:34:05) Al: This game. (0:34:06) Al: I don’t know if I can, I don’t know if I can go through playing another Rune Factory game. (0:34:06) Kelly: I don’t know. (0:34:10) Kelly: Have you played all of them? (0:34:11) Al: No, I have not. (0:34:12) Al: I have played just four and five, but I feel like that’s enough for me. (0:34:20) Al: I’m not a fan of the combat in these games. (0:34:23) Kelly: Okay, is it turn-based or is it like? (0:34:24) Al: No, it’s action based. (0:34:27) Al: Like real-time, whatever you want to call it, real-time combat. (0:34:31) Al: It’s just, I never feel like it’s responsive enough for me to feel like it’s enjoyable. (0:34:34) Kelly: Okay. (0:34:38) Al: It feels more like hack and slash rather than something like, I don’t know, Breath of the Wild, (0:34:45) Al: where you can have like precise combat with dodging and what’s the other one where you (0:34:52) Al: hit at the right parry, that’s the right one. (0:34:54) Al: So, I don’t know. I say that I don’t want to play it, but I’ll probably play it. We’ll (0:35:00) Al: see. We now have a trailer for it, so if you’re interested, go watch it. We’ve not heard anything (0:35:08) Al: else about Rune Factory 6, which fun fact Kelly, they announced at the exact same time (0:35:12) Al: they announced this game. No, this isn’t 6. This is… Yeah, but this is the thing. It’s (0:35:13) Kelly: Oh, this isn’t six. This is a side project. (0:35:20) Al: It’s not though. (0:35:21) Al: It’s not. (0:35:22) Al: It’s just the next. (0:35:24) Al: It will be interesting to see how long our Silkkox song is, and we can (0:35:26) Kelly: So, when does six come out? (0:35:30) Kelly: That’s… that’s… (0:35:35) Kelly: But this one seems to be coming out pretty quick. (0:35:40) Kelly: That’s… that’s not too bad when your other ones take five years. (0:35:46) Kelly: Yeah, that’s my… that’s my gauge for everything. (0:35:55) Al: to this is half a Silkkox song or whatever. (0:35:58) Kelly: » Well, I think the psychos have run out of other games, or (0:36:02) Kelly: they’re starting to run out of other games to compare it to. (0:36:06) Al: Yeah, I think GTA6 is the only other one that feels like that has been longer. (0:36:08) Kelly: Yeah, [LAUGH] yeah, and that’s just a meme in itself. (0:36:12) Al: Yeah. Yeah. Yes, GTA6 is not coming out next year, no matter how much they say it is, it’s (0:36:13) Kelly: So the two meme games, we’re just [BLANK_AUDIO] (0:36:21) Al: not coming out next year. It is a, like, because I don’t know if they actually announced that (0:36:26) Al: it was coming out in 2025 or something, but be- (0:36:29) Kelly: No, ‘cause there was that whole meme just going around of like, “We got this before (0:36:34) Kelly: GTA VI.” (0:36:35) Kelly: Oh, so end of next year. (0:36:35) Al: Yeah, so the announcement it was going to come out in Q4 2025, which late 20… Yeah, (0:36:42) Kelly: That’s never gonna happen. (0:36:43) Al: that means it’s coming out 2026. It was hilarious because they announced it in December last (0:36:44) Kelly: Yeah. (0:36:50) Al: year. So it was like, “Oh, they’re going to announce the new game. Great.” And then it (0:36:53) Al: came out and it was like, “Oh, wow, that’s exciting.” And then at the end it was like, (0:36:56) Al: late 2025. You’re like, “Really? You’re announcing it two years before you’re currently planning (0:37:02) Al: on it coming out. (0:37:04) Kelly: It’s just I went into a little bit of a spiral recently because of GTA 6 and that whole timeline (0:37:11) Kelly: because I was like, wow, it has been, I lived at my parents house when GTA 5 came out. (0:37:12) Al: Yeah. It’s, it’s basically my entire career. So I, so (0:37:19) Kelly: I was in college. (0:37:24) Kelly: Literally I was so excited because the weekend it dropped, my parents were away and I set (0:37:29) Kelly: up the big screen TV in the living room, and moved like the comfy (0:37:32) Al: Yeah. (0:37:32) Al: Thank you so much for watching. (0:37:34) Kelly: you know armchair to the center of the living room and sat there, and played GTA 5 on the big screen TV and (0:37:34) Al: If you enjoyed this video, please like and subscribe. (0:37:36) Al: If you want to see more videos like this, please like and subscribe. (0:37:42) Kelly: That’s how long it’s been (0:37:44) Al: It’s funny, so it came out on the 17th of September 2013, I got my first job outside (0:37:48) Kelly: No literally like so literally this is (0:37:53) Al: of uni on the 8th of August 2013. So just over a month before GTA 5 came out, I started (0:38:01) Al: my career. Since then, I’ve changed job like five times. I have had two children, I have (0:38:07) Al: bought two different houses, not at the same time, I’m not a crazy person. (0:38:14) Al: I was technically married before that, but only by two months. So like my entire career. (0:38:21) Al: I remember explicitly that it came out around that time because my first job, their office (0:38:28) Al: was right next to the Rockstar offices in Edinburgh. And so they had this massive, four-storey (0:38:30) Kelly: Uh, okay. (0:38:35) Al: poster on the office building that I walked past every single day for like a month before (0:38:42) Kelly: it’s it’s crazy it’s it’s it’s so funny like it’s yeah like you said like my whole life (0:38:50) Kelly: like I was still in college still living at my parents still working you know some like college (0:38:56) Kelly: level job (0:38:58) Al: I have a nine-year-old who was born a year and a half after it came out. (0:39:04) Kelly: you know I gotta say they really um milked gta live for all it’s worth (0:39:11) Kelly: because the fact that that kept (0:39:11) Al: - Yeah, they really did. (0:39:12) Kelly: that game so relevant is absolutely insane. (0:39:16) Al: Yeah, I mean, I’m never, I’m not really a GTA person, (0:39:21) Al: so I never played GTA Live. (0:39:22) Kelly: Well, I was. I was, you know, for literally most of my childhood (0:39:28) Kelly: and then they didn’t release a new game for half my life. (0:39:34) Kelly: Like, that’s crazy. One of my first- I used to rent (0:39:37) Kelly: GTA Miami Vice and GTA 3 from Blockbuster. (0:39:42) Al: I think it’s a very good example of how modern games have become too big. So from 1997, when (0:39:53) Al: the first GTA came out, there were 16 years between that and GTA 5. 16 years. It depends (0:40:00) Kelly: And what did they put out like 12 games? (0:40:03) Al: which one you’re counting, which ones you’re counting, because there’s like… so if you’re (0:40:05) Kelly: I’m counting the mini like the the side like the PSP games and stuff like that too. Yeah (0:40:12) Kelly: I could hear I could hear the little tapping (0:40:12) Al: going to be 15. 15 games. So an average of one a year. And since GTA 5… or let’s just (0:40:16) Kelly: Okay, so I wasn’t too far off (0:40:21) Al: shoot… so between GTA 5 and GTA 6 releasing, and this is just GTA games by the way, it’s (0:40:26) Al: not all Rockstar games. I’m just talking GTA stuff. So between GTA 5 and GTA 6 releasing, (0:40:31) Al: there will be at least 12 years. So 12 years between… and in that time, what have they (0:40:33) Kelly: That’s absurd. (0:40:38) Al: they had GTA Live and well, ignoring (0:40:38) Kelly: Red Dead Redemption? (0:40:42) Al: the other so GTA stuff specifically GTA Live or online or whatever you call it and their remastered (0:40:42) Kelly: Yeah, yeah. (0:40:48) Al: trilogy. No, exactly. And I was counting for the record like I wasn’t I wasn’t even counting like (0:40:49) Kelly: Oh, right, okay. Which, that doesn’t count. (0:40:56) Al: they had a double pack and a trilogy re-release. I wasn’t counting those before so literally and (0:41:04) Al: GTA online came out at the same time as 5 came in 2013 was like two weeks after 5. So (0:41:08) Kelly: Yeah, yeah. (0:41:12) Al: yeah Rockstar have done other games of course since then but it just… (0:41:16) Kelly: But they literally had such a, like they are who they are because of GTA. (0:41:22) Al: yeah, uh-huh. Also well also also also Lemmings but yeah. (0:41:24) Kelly: Like again, that was my childhood. I could tell you the craziest cheats for those games. (0:41:30) Al: We can’t forget Lemmings come on. (0:41:32) Kelly: What is, is that a Rockstar game? (0:41:35) Al: Did you never? So okay right this is where we get into the history of Rockstar North. (0:41:40) Al: Not Rockstar, Rockstar North. (0:41:41) Kelly: Is that the Scotland office? (0:41:42) Al: So, well, let me get to that. Let me get to that. So, GTA was originally developed (0:41:50) Al: by a company called DMA Design. This was a company based in Dundee, in Scotland, which (0:41:52) Kelly: Mm-hm. (0:42:00) Al: it’s actually the heart of games design in Scotland. The university there, people come (0:42:07) Al: from all over the world to study games design. It’s like well known for that. (0:42:13) Al: DMA Design, after GTA 3, were bought by Rockstar and renamed Rockstar North. But before that, (0:42:23) Al: they also released many games. GTA is the one that obviously most people know of, (0:42:29) Al: but they also released Lemmings, which was a big game. Did you never play Lemmings? (0:42:37) Al: So, this was a game, the game play for this was you have… (0:42:42) Al: Obviously, this is based on the false idea of Lemmings walking off cliffs, (0:42:46) Al: which is obviously nonsense, but it was a fun game. (0:42:50) Al: So, you know about the creatures Lemmings, right? (0:42:52) Kelly: Yes, yes. (0:42:53) Al: And you know about the Disney’s terrible thing where they pretended that Lemmings (0:42:58) Al: walked off cliffs, but actually they just basically pushed them off a cliff for a documentary. (0:43:02) Kelly: Yes, I do know about that. (0:43:03) Al: Yeah, OK, cool. (0:43:06) Al: So, DMA Design made a game called Lemmings that was based off this idea. (0:43:10) Al: Um, you have a lot of little (0:43:12) Al: lemmings and you have to guide them through a 2D world, get them from the start to the end using (0:43:20) Al: different things like you can, you know, you can tell a lemming to mine through this thing, (0:43:24) Al: you can tell one to build a stair, you can, you know, loads of things. It was a really fun game. (0:43:28) Kelly: They’re so cute looking, honestly. Like, I’m looking at it now, it looks adorable. (0:43:30) Al: Yeah. So I don’t think they made a single lemmings game after they became Rockstar North, (0:43:36) Al: which I’m very sad about, but it’d be amazing. They basically- (0:43:39) Kelly: Ugh, could you imagine? (0:43:42) Al: became the GTA place, even though they did so many other games before that. (0:43:47) Kelly: Yeah, that’s crazy. I never would have guessed that, to be honest. (0:43:50) Kelly: But yeah, GTA. What is life? (0:43:53) Al: Yes, there we go. So many tangents in this episode. (0:43:56) Kelly: Derailment 2. (0:43:57) Kelly: - What? (laughs) (0:43:59) Al: Um, but hey, I mean, GTA 6 probably come out before Elder Scrolls 6. (0:44:04) Kelly: I’ll probably get it before a silk song, you know, that’s (0:44:07) Al: Well, I don’t know… I don’t know… (0:44:10) Al: Bye. (0:44:10) Kelly: Al I have to say these things to jinx it so (0:44:12) Al: Yeah, okay, sorry, sorry. Right, I think we’re done with our tangents for now, (0:44:18) Kelly: Yes (0:44:19) Al: and that’s definitely the news finished. I think the news was finished 20 minutes ago. (0:44:25) Kelly: We had to have another history lesson, okay (0:44:25) Al: So now, yeah, yeah, we’ve got two Scottish history license, one about the language, (0:44:31) Al: and one about the only games company that has actually been successful. (0:44:38) Kelly: You have to say we’re consistently on theme, at least, somehow. (0:44:42) Al: I’m just getting you ready. I’m getting you ready for coming. You can have a look at the (0:44:47) Al: Rockstar North offices in Edinburgh when you’re there. I don’t know where their current offices (0:44:52) Al: are because I think they moved since I worked in Edinburgh. Anyway, we’re going to talk (0:44:57) Al: about Dave the Diver. Specifically, we’re going to talk about the story aspect of it, (0:45:02) Al: but there are two things we need to discuss beforehand. First of all, they have, for some (0:45:09) Al: reason I know it’s new DLCs since the last day of the day. (0:45:12) Al: So we need to talk about them. (0:45:14) Al: So the first one is Bilateral. (0:45:17) Al: This is the card game, the like ridiculous rogue-lite card game where you have to like (0:45:24) Al: build up a hand and make, like you’ve probably seen people with trying to break it by having (0:45:31) Al: numbers so large that the game crashes and stuff like that. (0:45:38) Al: I don’t think we know for certain what’s happening here, but it looks like they’re (0:45:41) Al: putting (0:45:42) Al: the game as a minigame inside, but I also noticed on the Nintendo Direct this week that (0:45:42) Kelly: It’s like a minigame, right? (0:45:50) Al: also Dave the Diver themed decks are going in bilateral as well. (0:45:56) Kelly: that’s cute I think that’s a nice like I feel like Dave does such a good job of (0:46:02) Kelly: these cute little like you know they’re they remind me like back in the day when (0:46:07) Kelly: you do like follow for follow or like photo like my photo and I’ll

On this show, Heather speaks with Kelly Richmond Pope about her intriguing journey into forensic accounting, her experiences with fraud, and the human elements that complicate financial crimes. Here are a few key points from their conversation: Kelly Richmond Pope's Background Her Early Interest in Accounting A Personal Anecdotes of Learning About Fraud Professional Encounters with Fraud Discussion on Whistleblowers Impact of Fraud on Victims and the Role of Emotional Connection Advice on Vigilance Against Fraud Changing Dynamics in the Accounting Profession Combining Passions and Careers Kelly's work includes: Fool Me Once - A book by Kelly on Amazon All the Queen's Horses - A documentary by Kelly available on YouTube More accountants are leaving the field than joining. What's going on? - A BigThink talk by Kelly Thank you to our show sponsor! Rightworks — All your accounting apps, unified in the cloud Learn more about the show and our sponsors at Woodard.com/podcast

Al and Kelly talk about what they think could still be added to Stardew Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:02:27: What Have We Been Up To 00:07:40: News 00:22:53: Stardew 1.6 00:56:47: What Is Still Missing In Stardew 01:21:22: Outro Links Echoes of the Plum Grove Release Date Bunny Haven Mika and the Witch’s Mountain Dev Update Potion Permit Update Len’s Island Roadmap Chill Roadmap Stardew 1.6.3 Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Al: Hello farmers and welcome to another episode of the harvest season. (0:00:34) Al: My name is Al and we are here today to talk about Cottagecore Games. (0:00:36) Kelly: and I’m Kelly. (0:00:41) Al: Ah welcome back Kelly, it’s been a while. (0:00:46) Al: What was your last episode? (0:00:47) Kelly: Um, was it the pumpkin heart? (0:00:47) Al: It was. (0:00:49) Al: Oh no pumpkin panic! (0:00:52) Kelly: Yeah. (0:00:53) Al: No! (0:00:54) Al: Oh I talked to, was it Bev I talked about that? (0:00:56) Kelly: Ahhh. (laughs) (0:01:00) Al: There was a couple of weeks ago and they had not listened to that episode and eventually went and watched like one of the speedruns and I was like just be warned and they were like yeah it’s terrifying. (0:01:08) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:01:13) Kelly: Yeah, that is absolutely the least cottagecore game that I think we’ve discussed. (0:01:15) Al: Yeah. (0:01:18) Al: Oh yeah don’t yeah. (0:01:21) Kelly: And listen, I have some anxiety attacks playing Stardew in the mines, but that’s nothing. (0:01:30) Al: We’ll talk about it later but I’m in the volcano just now on Ginger Island so I’m having fun there. (0:01:31) Kelly: Yes. (0:01:39) Al: Cottagecore and not Cottagecore there is an overlap there anyway. (0:01:43) Al: So yeah welcome back it’s been six months good to have you back. (0:01:48) Kelly: It’s good to be back, I’m always happy to come back. (0:01:50) Al: We are going to talk more about Stardew 1.6 because we are going to eke out all the content we can from this update I guess that’s the fun of me and Johnny covering. (0:02:01) Al: It’s going to be less than a week after it comes out is there’s always going to be stuff that we miss and so fun to come back and chat especially with with with you Kelly who obviously you weren’t on the last episode so you’ve got probably different thoughts probably some similar thoughts but anyway before we get into that transcripts are available in the show notes and on the website the there’s a bunch of news to talk about but first of All Kelly, what have you been? (0:02:30) Kelly: Besides playing Stardew, you know, I had five days off last week, and I spent three of them playing Stardew until four in the morning. (0:02:42) Kelly: So that was really rough to go back to work the next week. So now I’ve been trying to roll it in at about one o’clock in the morning. (0:02:48) Kelly: But, you know, that never works, because it’s always just one more day. (0:02:52) Kelly: So it’s like 1.30 I’ve been going to bed playing Stardew. So, you know, it’s been going. (0:03:00) Al: I mean is the original solitaire not a roguelike? (0:03:02) Kelly: But besides that, I’ve been playing Solitaire Battle. It’s like a roguelike RPG solitaire game where you battle other things. (0:03:18) Kelly: We had this discussion in Slack. I said it as a joke, but it 100% is. (0:03:23) Al: It is! (0:03:24) Al: There’s nothing like it’s just it’s a single run and then once it’s done nothing matters and you can start again. (0:03:28) Kelly: Yep, you got what you got in that run and then you don’t get that same thing ever again (0:03:34) Kelly: and you know what, it made me realize, maybe that’s just the games that I like (0:03:40) Al: Yeah. Each to their own. So what makes this different? Is it an RPG? Did you say an RPG? (0:03:40) Kelly: to my core (0:03:54) Kelly: Sort of so like you get you you you go against a different like character each round and you (0:04:03) Kelly: Obviously want to try to get more matches and more cards in them, but you also (0:04:07) Kelly: Have power-up cards, so you have like a tack move (0:04:10) Kelly: You have like some Stat boosters and stuff like that you can get like extra draws (0:04:16) Kelly: so you’re kind of just like looking to kill their health bar before your health bar goes down and (0:04:21) Al: Oh, interesting. (0:04:24) Kelly: Three three levels with three levels in each it’s it’s a unique little take on (0:04:29) Kelly: Solidary Dallin and introduce me to it (0:04:32) Al: is there a story? No. Okay. Well, let’s not get into the discussion of what an RPG is. (0:04:34) Kelly: No (0:04:36) Kelly: So maybe not RPG maybe I’m just saying letters and words (0:04:41) Kelly: No (0:04:44) Al: People complain about me talking about that all the time. Okay. Do you gain cards for winning and stuff like that? Is that how you get the power up? Okay. And then you buy the power-ups with the money. (0:04:46) Kelly: My hands are up I am done (0:04:55) Kelly: Uh, no, you actually gain money. (0:04:58) Kelly: So, like, yeah, yeah, you buy the cards. (0:05:00) Kelly: So it’s like, oh, you linked seven different cards at once, you get more money. (0:05:06) Al: sounds like a rogue light to me rather than a rogue like every time every time I talk about this I think I know the difference and then I say something and someone’s like oh maybe not (0:05:09) Kelly: I don’t know the difference. (0:05:18) Kelly: Yeah, I’ve given up. I’ve decided it’s funnier this way. (0:05:23) Al: see I’m I’m my current understanding is that a rogue like is where everything resets between runs and the only thing that improves is your skill and a rogue (0:05:36) Al: light is where you gain things between runs to improve the runs in other ways (0:05:42) Kelly: So I think it would be more of the first but you do gain characters (0:05:48) Kelly: to play as (0:05:49) Al: Yeah, but you’re also gaining money, right? Which gives you paradox and stuff like that so that (0:05:52) Kelly: Oh, yeah But so it’s like that’s one run and then I’d go back and like, you know do a different run So I guess it would be the second one because you’re keeping the cards through the nine levels that you’re playing I don’t know man. I don’t know (0:06:04) Al: Who cares? Whatever. I wouldn’t like it either way. There’s still only one that I’ve actually enjoyed as a whole game, so. Oh, what have I been up to? I mean, Stardew, like, is there is that enough? I mean, basically, I’m now at 60 hours played of Stardew 1.6. (0:06:07) Kelly: Who cares whatever (0:06:10) Kelly: Yeah, no you wouldn’t like it. I just think it’s fun (0:06:12) Kelly: I need to make fun of this conversation every time it gets brought up. (0:06:28) Kelly: Oh, nice. (0:06:35) Al: And we are currently recording on Thursday, so it’s quite an early episode for nearly a week before it’ll come out, but yeah, so it’s a week and two days since it came out, (0:06:49) Al: almost exactly. So, 60 hours. (0:06:54) Kelly: Too bad, I’ve put 30 hours in, (0:06:55) Kelly: but I did not start playing until Saturday night. (0:06:58) Al: Ah, yeah. Yeah, I was ready for it. The whole of Tuesday I was like, “Right, it’s going to be late. It’s going to be late today because I know that Concerned Ape is in Pacific time, (0:07:09) Al: but I’m going to keep paying attention anyway.” And then it came out at like 9pm my time and I was like, “Ugh, great.” Yeah, well, exactly. Exactly. So I am tired. I don’t think I’ve be doing anything else, sadly not games wise. (0:07:18) Kelly: Dangerous time to start. (0:07:29) Al: I keep trying to start Princess Peach show time, but I’ve got stuff to do in Stardew. (0:07:35) Kelly: It’s hard starting with such a commitment. (0:07:38) Al: Yeah, but we’ll talk more about that soon. (0:07:40) Al: Let’s talk about some news. (0:07:42) Al: First off, we have Echoes of the Plum Grove have announced that they are releasing on the 29th of April this year. (0:07:48) Al: Kelly, I suspect you haven’t heard of that yet. (0:07:52) Kelly: I have not, um, I like the title. (0:07:56) Al: So, I mean, the summary of this is it is a life sim where you can kill people. (0:08:04) Kelly: Oh. (0:08:08) Kelly: It’s such a cute artwork, I did not suspect that. (0:08:12) Al: Yes, yes. It’s very Paper Mario-esque. I’m trying to find the wording because it’s quite a… I can’t find the wording, but I’m pretty sure this is the one where you can kill people. (0:08:14) Kelly: Yeah. (0:08:23) Kelly: I like that. I think that’s a nice way to stand out. (0:08:25) Al: Yes, I’m all for different things. You also have to survive winter. I think you can die because of the season. I don’t know if I like that or not, but I’m certainly willing to try it. I mean, I’ve backed it on Kickstarter. (0:08:33) Kelly: Oh, I like that too (0:08:44) Kelly: Yeah, I mean, also I’m saying I like that, but I’m sure also if I played it and put like 40 hours into the game and then I died, I’d be pissed. (0:08:50) Al: So I believe that if I, okay, so you you have children and then you grow old and I believe… (0:09:00) Kelly: Oh, I think I have heard of this. (0:09:04) Al: I’m not sure I need to double check but I’m not sure if it says for certain but I think you can then continue as your child when you die. We’ll find out because it comes out soon, (0:09:13) Al: comes out in one month. Was this on Switch or was it just on Steam? Not that it matters anyway because even if it comes out on Steam, it will… (0:09:21) Al: Even if it comes out on Switch, it will come out on Steam first, (0:09:23) Al: so I’ll probably just play it on my Steam deck. (0:09:26) Al: I’m not seeing Switch. (0:09:27) Al: Anyway, so yeah. (0:09:28) Al: Next we have Bunny Haven. (0:09:30) Al: Bunny Haven is out now. (0:09:33) Al: I don’t think there’s much to say about this game. (0:09:35) Al: There’s bunnies. (0:09:36) Al: Adopt rescue bunnies, (0:09:38) Al: care for them, and transform your garden into the haven in this cozy cafe sim. (0:09:42) Kelly: Okay, cute (0:09:43) Al: Yeah, out now. (0:09:45) Al: Will you play this? (0:09:47) Kelly: Maybe I’m I’m like is that a phone game or is it like a yeah, I’m like weird about phone games I’ll like the idea of something but in the long run. I just go back to playing dungeon cards (0:09:58) Al: Oh, what is dungeon cards? (0:09:59) Kelly: so (0:10:02) Kelly: It’s a roguelite card game (0:10:06) Kelly: So yeah, it’s just like a silly little card game (0:10:14) Al: Mika and the witch’s mountain. (0:10:18) Al: This is your witch delivering packages. (0:10:24) Kelly: okay what is this like the poly art style is that what that is (0:10:29) Al: Oh, yeah, there’s a I know what you’re trying to I know what you’re trying to say, but it’s not that, and I can’t remember. (0:10:39) Al: Shaded, is it shaded? (0:10:42) Kelly: Oh, Cell… (0:10:43) Al: Cell shaded, yes, that’s it. (0:10:44) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think a lot of games can be really fun in the start style. (0:10:49) Al: I agree, I think this works really well. (0:10:52) Al: They have not announced their release date, but they have released that they’re planning to release they have announced. (0:10:59) Al: They’re planning to release before summer. (0:11:02) Kelly: Okay (0:11:03) Al: I don’t know if this is a translation thing because the team is Italian. (0:11:05) Al: So they’re, you know, there’s a, there’s an aspect of that, that they’re not kind of native English speakers, but that feels like before summer. (0:11:15) Al: I mean, I always have issues of using seasons, right? (0:11:17) Al: Because as we have discussed many, many times, there is no one universal definition of the seasons. (0:11:25) Al: Not everywhere has four seasons, some places have two, some places have three, some places have five, and even the places that do have four, they don’t all have them the same. (0:11:35) Al: So it always annoys me when the people do this, but like what is I don’t know whether they actually mean before summer or whether they mean before the end of summer, so it could either be like any time between now and what June, or it could be any time between now and September. There we go. (0:11:52) Kelly: Yeah, it could be anything. (0:11:56) Kelly: I think they intentionally did that just to be vague for their own benefit. (0:11:59) Al: Yeah, yeah, we are putting all the team’s efforts to have Mika and the Witches Mountain out before summer this year. Yes, we will see. I want to play that game, although not right now, (0:12:08) Kelly: I mean, it’s better than nothing. (0:12:14) Al: I’m playing Stardew, so you know maybe they can wait. (0:12:15) Kelly: The tarot cards look cool. (0:12:17) Kelly: I like the art for them. (0:12:19) Al: I haven’t actually seen that. Is that in this update? (0:12:20) Kelly: They’re collectibles. (0:12:24) Kelly: Uh, I’m on the page you sent me, but I don’t think it’s from this update. (0:12:28) Al: Oh yes, no, it is the update, yeah, yeah, well I know I do, that’s my thing. (0:12:30) Kelly: Oh, okay. (0:12:31) Kelly: Who doesn’t love collecting things? (0:12:38) Al: Potion Pyramid, did you play Potion Pyramid? (0:12:40) Kelly: Yeah, I did a podcast with Bev and Maddie. (0:12:43) Al: You did one on it, yeah. (0:12:45) Al: So there’s an update out now with new romanceable characters, I wasn’t even aware they had romance in that, I don’t remember you discussing that on the podcast, were you aware they had romance in this game? (0:12:49) Kelly: Mm. (0:12:57) Kelly: We were, um, I think it was kind of (0:12:58) Al: Hehe. Surprise, surprise. (0:13:00) Kelly: lackluster compared to some other (0:13:03) Kelly: romance-able games, so that’s probably why you don’t remember us talking about it. (0:13:08) Al: Yeah, probably, probably. They’ve also added some extra languages and a cinematic opening (0:13:17) Al: animation to the game. Is this in? Is it still in early access? Was it in early access? I can’t. (0:13:24) Al: It is not in early access. (0:13:26) Kelly: I was gonna say, I think he was out. (0:13:27) Kelly: They definitely seem to have been fixing a lot of bugs, (0:13:31) Kelly: ‘cause there definitely were a lot of bugs, (0:13:33) Kelly: I know, when we talked about it. (0:13:35) Al: Yeah, I feel like adding an opening animation, it doesn’t feel like an after 1.0 thing to do. (0:13:44) Kelly: No, also kind of feels weird when there’s like other things that I probably would have (0:13:50) Kelly: Spent the time on fixing (0:13:51) Al: Yeah, I will say that it won’t be the same people doing those two things, (0:13:55) Kelly: Mmm, yeah (0:13:55) Al: right? Like the developers would have gone, oh great, here’s the animation, right? That’s it in, (0:13:59) Al: right? There’s not much work for them to do after this is made. (0:14:02) Kelly: Yeah, but that’s still budget money, right, you know? (0:14:06) Al: » Sure, that doesn’t mean that if they hadn’t done it, (0:14:09) Al: they would have spent money on fixing. (0:14:10) Kelly: That’s true, that’s that’s very true. (0:14:12) Al: You can’t just throw more developers at a team and get quicker, faster bug fixes. (0:14:19) Al: It’s not how it works. (0:14:20) Kelly: Listen, I played Software Inc., it is how it works. (0:14:25) Al: Please never run a development team. (0:14:29) Kelly: My company was so successful. (0:14:32) Al: There’s a fun– I can’t remember the name of it, (0:14:34) Al: but there’s a fun. (0:14:35) Al: Principle in companies that says that people get promoted until they are no longer doing the job well and then instead of getting demoted back down to where they were doing a good job they continue to be in the job that they weren’t doing well and that’s why it always feels like management are terrible what they’re doing because they are. (0:14:55) Kelly: Mm-hmm. Yes, I’ve heard the same exact thing about managers and (0:14:56) Al: So. (0:15:01) Kelly: It definitely applied to my past manager. Now I have a good manager. So (0:15:06) Al: Ah, well, I’m sure you won’t have them for long because they’ll get promoted into something that they’re not good at. (0:15:14) Kelly: That’s the fingers crossed (0:15:17) Kelly: On a side note, I don’t know if you you’re interested in playing a work game after work, but software ink was fun (0:15:24) Al: Ah, maybe, maybe when I’ve had like a long holiday or something, (0:15:25) Kelly: Mm-hm, yeah, there you go. (0:15:29) Al: we’ll see. Certainly not right now. Maybe when I’m in a new job, maybe when I’ve got a new job. (0:15:34) Kelly: When you’re filled with hope and, you know, a new will to survive. (0:15:39) Al: Lens Island have updated their roadmap again. They now have six updates coming, (0:15:48) Al: no four updates coming over the next three months, which I’m sure will go great. (0:15:54) Al: They have the end of March, which is now. They have the community update. At the end of April, (0:16:01) Al: they have two different updates coming. They both say end of April. That’s very weird. (0:16:08) Al: One of which is the camp. Yeah. Yeah. So realistically, that’s one update, isn’t it? (0:16:08) Kelly: But they’re tied together. (0:16:15) Kelly: Mm-hmm. They wanted to showcase both. (0:16:15) Al: I don’t know why they’re calling it two different updates. That’s fair, but like don’t say it’s four different updates. That’s not how it works. (0:16:24) Al: Oh, that is totally something that someone would do. That’s the camera orbiting update, (0:16:24) Kelly: They’re going to be on two separate dates. (0:16:39) Al: which is such an overly complicated name for. I mean, it’s a very good and impressive feature to implement, right? Like you have a freeform camera in a game that never had a freeform camera before. That’s good. But my word, I do hate. (0:16:54) Al: that name. Freeform camera, yeah. Camera. Like what is the camera orbiting? And camera orbiting implies that it’s like always moving, right? Because like an orbiting thing isn’t moving at will, it is moving at a general constant orbital speed. So I. And as always happens in these games when you’ve got moveable cameras. (0:16:54) Kelly: Is that what you would say though instead free-form camera? Yeah, I think that sounds better than camera orbiting update (0:17:08) Kelly: Yeah (0:17:13) Kelly: You’re just trying to play the game and like hope that you can see the right way while you’re doing (0:17:24) Al: The controls change when you’re moving the camera, so you’re just running around in circle. (0:17:24) Kelly: mhm, mhm (0:17:32) Al: Oh, that sounds terrible. (0:17:34) Kelly: That’d be a fun, like, challenge form. (0:17:38) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:17:41) Al: Anyway, and the other update at the end of April is the completionist update. (0:17:49) Al: New starter guide, collections page, and quest objectives will be added. (0:17:54) Al: Then at the end of May, they have the frozen lands update, (0:17:58) Al: which is a new Arctic world, new weapons, enemies, and animals, new major boss. (0:18:03) Al: Major boss. (0:18:04) Al: Is that not just a boss? (0:18:06) Kelly: They really want to spice things up, Al. Let them be. (0:18:11) Al: a new vehicle and more. And then it looks like the full release has been pushed a little bit because it was originally scheduled for July, but it’s now coming out in Q3. Technically July is in Q3, but in fact they’re now saying Q3 rather than July. I suspect that means September. But thank you for saying Q3 and not saying summer. I appreciate that. Although you do get into the question of like, well, what are we talking? (0:18:30) Kelly: Yeah, I would also think that. (0:18:41) Al: Or are we talking financial calendar? In which case, which financial year? (0:18:47) Al: There is here. Yeah, it’s April to March. Technically, it’s the, I think the fifth of April to the fourth of April the next year. Don’t ask me why, it just is. Yeah, so if you talk about the financial year here that’s what (0:18:49) Kelly: Is there even a standardized fiscal year? (0:19:11) Al: people need. And that will include multiplayer and the I don’t know what they mean by the act 5 major update that sounds like it’s the final bit of the story possibly but I’m not sure. And a new hardcore mode. (0:19:26) Kelly: Are the stories called acts because like also technically this would be the fifth update (0:19:31) Al: It would be the fifth update this year but there have already been lots of updates to this game. (0:19:41) Al: It came out in 2020-2021, so yeah, I don’t know why I started saying 2000, right? (0:19:44) Kelly: I thought you were going to say 2012 for a second. (0:19:49) Al: I’ve not, I’ve not said 2000 and something for years, 2021, I don’t, I think even back in 2012, I was still calling it 20, I think it was back in 2009. (0:20:04) Kelly: That’s fair. I think I switched back and forth until like- (0:20:06) Al: Yeah, I find it funny because, like, I would never say… (0:20:10) Al: You would always say, like, 1901, 1905, 1922, you wouldn’t say 1905, yeah. (0:20:16) Kelly: Because that sounds ridiculous. (0:20:20) Al: But we knew that saying 2000 dand would sound ridiculous at some point as well, so why did we ever start saying, uh, it doesn’t matter, don’t matter, doesn’t matter. (0:20:29) Al: We don’t have time to get distracted by this pointless stuff. (0:20:32) Al: It is quarter to 11. (0:20:34) Al: Milltown have released their roadmap as well. (0:20:36) Al: They just came into Early Access last week, I wanna say. (0:20:42) Al: The day before or the day after Stardew 1.6, so I haven’t played it yet. (0:20:50) Al: So their first update will come out apparently this month, which presumably means like tomorrow. (0:20:58) Al: Because I don’t think they’re gonna be doing it all at the weekend. (0:21:02) Al: So it should be out by the time you’re listening to this episode. (0:21:04) Al: And that will have some bug fixes. (0:21:06) Al: Performance fixes etc etc and full controller support. (0:21:11) Al: Look, if you’re gonna release controller support like less than two weeks after your early access, (0:21:16) Al: just wait the two weeks. (0:21:23) Al: Boy oh boy. (0:21:24) Al: And then they’ve listed the other updates that are coming out, (0:21:27) Al: or some of the other updates that are coming out with no dates on them, (0:21:30) Al: which is probably a sensible thing to do. (0:21:32) Al: do. (0:21:32) Kelly: Yeah, I feel like that doesn’t set the expectations badly seems like some pretty good updates along the lot like down (0:21:37) Al: Yeah, I do need to play this game, it is on my list. (0:21:44) Al: I do own it, cuz of course I backed on Kickstarter. (0:21:51) Kelly: Some people are hoarders, some people, you know, (0:21:53) Kelly: back everything on Kickstarter. (0:21:55) Al: I feel like we’re about to come into a really busy period for games coming out, I just have that feeling. It was three days, it was three days after Stardew 1.6 came out that it came out. (0:22:00) Kelly: Yeah, I trust- (0:22:05) Al: In fact, in that case, it was last Friday that this game first came out, less than a week. (0:22:13) Al: And the final piece of information, which will be a lovely segue into our main topic, (0:22:18) Al: is that Stardew 1.6.3 is now out, which includes the most important update, Kelly. (0:22:24) Al: you can access clinche (0:22:25) Al: shop while your tool is being upgraded. (0:22:28) Al: That was three updates ago, come on get with it! (0:22:28) Kelly: I thought you were gonna say, “You could drink mayonnaise.” (0:22:37) Kelly: No, uh, when I saw the Clint update, I was so ecstatic. (0:22:41) Al: the Clint update. (0:22:43) Kelly: I hate him. I never want to see him. (0:22:46) Kelly: But this is the best update that could have been applied to him besides he turns into nothingness and you can become your own, uh, blacksmith. (0:22:54) Al: Well, let me tell you so I have so listeners will have heard this is when I segwaying into this is the this is The main main point of the episode now. We’re just gonna talk some more about stardew (0:23:05) Al: Kelly’s gonna talk about some of their feelings on the 1.6 update and (0:23:11) Al: I will probably talk about some of the 1.5 stuff that I’ve now accessed in the last few days because I haven’t stopped playing and (0:23:19) Al: then we might talk about some things that we think are still missing from the game. (0:23:24) Al: With the massive caveat that we obviously don’t expect anything else, (0:23:28) Al: and if this game never gets another update that will be completely acceptable, (0:23:34) Al: we’ve had six massive updates for this game. (0:23:35) Kelly: We love you, Concerned Dave. We don’t expect anything from you. Please just be nice. (0:23:42) Kelly: You’re so nice. (0:23:42) Al: Um, but yeah, Clint, I have an update. So people will know that I was, uh, I’m romancing Emily in this game. Um, and yeah, well, exactly. So, um, Johnny said that I’m running the full evil run in this version. Cause obviously I’m doing Junimo Kelly. You were the first person to find that out. Literally two hours before we recorded the last podcast, I got A message from Kelly going. (0:23:50) Kelly: Oh no, so arch rival Clint. (0:24:04) Kelly: It was the first person to shame you on it too. (0:24:13) Al: What have you done? (0:24:15) Al: As I had just finished completing the Georgia Community Center equivalent. (0:24:23) Al: I don’t even know what it’s called. (0:24:26) Kelly: I don’t either, but I open Steam and what do I see? (0:24:30) Kelly: But Al has completed the Jojo, Jojo Mart, whatever thing. (0:24:36) Kelly: I don’t think I know anybody who’s done that. (0:24:38) Al: Well, now you do. (0:24:41) Al: Let me see what it was actually called. (0:24:42) Kelly: This is the genocide run of Stardew. (0:24:46) Al: genocide. Wow. (0:24:50) Kelly: It’s an Undertale reference. (0:24:52) Al: All right, I did not. (0:24:54) Al: I played Undertale. (0:24:58) Al: I didn’t enjoy it. (0:25:01) Al: We don’t need to talk about that. (0:25:04) Al: So the actual the actual achievement is Georgia Co-member of the year. (0:25:08) Al: Look, it’s my rarest achievement, 4.3% of players of this achievement. (0:25:14) Kelly: There you go. Well, I saw that on Steam, and how could I not publicly shame Al for this? I mean… (0:25:26) Kelly: Oh, I will say, so I– to the listeners, I’ve only played Stardew on the Switch before this, (0:25:33) Kelly: and it is so nice to have the achievements. (0:25:36) Al: Yeah. You do get them in the Switch version, but they’re only in-game. It’s really nice to be able to go and see them. I don’t know why Nintendo insists on not doing achievements. (0:25:40) Kelly: Yeah, it’s not the same. (0:25:48) Kelly: It makes me so mad! (0:25:49) Al: It feels like something they could do with… It’s not like it’s no work, but the majority of the work is on the developers’ sides. They need to build an API that allows people to put in some information, and then they need a UI that shows you it. That’s really all you need to do. (0:26:07) Al: I’m not saying it’s very, very easy, (0:26:09) Al: but I am saying it’s not the hardest thing they’ve ever done. (0:26:09) Kelly: It’s such a small thing that’s like completely unnecessary, but it just feels so nice. (0:26:12) Al: And I think it would make playing the switch much more fun. (0:26:22) Al: Yeah I’m wrong actually it’s not it’s not my rarest achievement anymore. I got the unforgettable soup today. Yeah only 0.7% what did you put in to get that? Oh wow yeah love me an easy soup I put in I put in a gold truffle yeah I oh nice wow impressive that’s pretty good (0:26:22) Kelly: I will say. (0:26:28) Kelly: I got that a few days ago. (0:26:40) Kelly: Oh, fancy. I’m early in the game still. This was my first spring, or summer, or whatever. (0:26:52) Al: no I put it I put in the gold truffle purely because I accidentally walked into the beach and went oh no it’s soup time do I have anything in my bag I had one food item and it was a gold truffle look because I had the gold truffle it was fine right I was I was like this is a perfect thing for a soup this will be great (0:27:04) Kelly: Oh, you are so lucky. (0:27:06) Kelly: You are, I would have savescombed. (0:27:08) Kelly: I would have absolutely just shut the game down and restarted the day. (0:27:14) Kelly: Yeah, no, yeah. (0:27:16) Kelly: Yeah, you got luck, you lucked out. (0:27:18) Kelly: That’s awesome. (0:27:19) Kelly: No, I would have absolutely just shut the game down and like close my eyes for a second and then restarted everything. (0:27:26) Al: Oh dear, it was funny because I was going over, I was actually planning to go to Ginger Island. (0:27:31) Kelly: Oh, man. (0:27:32) Al: So I was going to the beach to go to the boat, and then I was like, (0:27:36) Al: “Oh, guess I’m not going to Ginger Island today.” (0:27:36) Kelly: Good thing you didn’t just, like, use a totem or whatever. (0:27:43) Kelly: Can you use a totem for Ginger Island? (0:27:44) Al: You can, but I had never, this was my first time going to Ginger Island, so I didn’t, (0:27:44) Kelly: I can’t… (0:27:45) Kelly: You can, right? (0:27:46) Kelly: Oh! (0:27:47) Kelly: Also, “Plans Interrupted” by the Lueo. (0:27:50) Al: I didn’t, I didn’t have any to- (0:27:52) Al: Oh, sorry, I interrupted you. (0:27:57) Kelly: That’s pretty lucky. (0:27:59) Kelly: I don’t know what I was saying. (0:28:01) Al: “Achievements”. (0:28:02) Kelly: Oh, I was going to say that was my best achievement. (0:28:06) Al: Oh, so I interrupted, I interrupted you, telling me about an unforgettable soup, (0:28:07) Kelly: That’s what I was about to say. (0:28:10) Kelly: I was going to brag about the fact that, yeah, I was going to say I have you beat. (0:28:13) Al: by telling you about my unforgettable soup. (0:28:19) Al: Apparently, so I’ve also, the Ginger Island one, which… (0:28:22) Al: just get to Ginger Island, only has 1.2% of players. (0:28:24) Kelly: Well that’s even with the soup one, I’m not doing great in the summer, I’m doing well, (0:28:26) Al: Yeah, that is really, that’s so much smaller than I was expecting. (0:28:29) Al: The soup one as well. You just need a gold and anything. (0:28:38) Kelly: you know, like I’m having a good run through, but I’m not doing anything crazy and yeah I started with the new meadow thing so I have chickens and eggs, that’s like a step up. (0:28:48) Al: - Yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:28:50) Kelly: Which is great, I love them. (0:28:51) Al: Yeah, so you did the new farm then. (0:28:52) Kelly: Yes. (0:28:54) Al: So tell me what you think about that then just in general. (0:28:55) Kelly: I think it’s really cute. I think it is kind of you kind of give yourself a little boost by getting the chickens for sure, because it doesn’t take long for you to get like a mayo maker and then that’s like, even without the mayo maker, you’re still like dedicated getting a few hundred dollars a day at the beginning, which is like such a big thing. Yes, it is. (0:28:57) Al: ‘Cause me and Johnny had to chat about that as well, (0:28:59) Al: ‘cause we both went for that, absolutely. (0:29:04) Kelly: It’s kind of you kind of give yourself a little boost by getting the chickens for sure, because it doesn’t take long for you to get like a mayo maker and then that’s like, even without the mayo maker, you’re still like dedicated getting a few hundred dollars a day at the beginning, which is like such a big thing. Yes. (0:29:20) Al: Yeah, which is huge to start with. (0:29:26) Kelly: I’m not selling my foraged goods and then trying to save some so I have something to eat. (0:29:30) Al: Yeah, selling wood and stone. (0:29:32) Kelly: Yeah, exactly. (0:29:36) Kelly: Like, yes, of course, I am a fisherman through and through when it comes to stardew, so that is always my go-to for money. (0:29:43) Al: interesting. Let me tell you, I am not a fishing person so much so that I am at level ten for everything in in this save except fishing of which I am far. (0:29:58) Kelly: Oh wow, no, I got like Iridium Fish by day 10 of spring. (0:30:05) Kelly: And I was like, oh, is this gonna be harder on like computer? (0:30:08) Kelly: Because like, you know, I’m using the mouse instead. (0:30:11) Kelly: But no, I think it might even be easier. (0:30:14) Kelly: I love fishing, I think it’s so much fun. (0:30:16) Kelly: But you make so much money. (0:30:16) Al: I dislike it less once I’ve gone up the levels, right, (0:30:23) Al: because it becomes easier as you go up. (0:30:24) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, it definitely does. (0:30:26) Al: And you do get a lot of money early game, (0:30:29) Al: but then by the time I actually have bothered to try it, (0:30:32) Al: I’m already making lots. (0:30:34) Al: Like I’m now trying to push up the levels because I’m like, I wanna get to level 10 on fishing by the end of year two. (0:30:34) Kelly: Yeah (0:30:40) Kelly: Yeah, yeah cuz otherwise you can’t get the legendaries right (0:30:40) Al: I’m currently midway through summer year two. (0:30:46) Al: You get them the next year. (0:30:48) Al: But no, I want to get it for the granddad’s evaluation. (0:30:53) Al: Although I think I just hit my last thing that I needed to do for my granddad’s evaluation. (0:30:54) Kelly: Well, yeah, that’s part of it too. (0:31:01) Al: But that last point that I needed to get was having your pet at full happiness. (0:31:09) Al: And the problem with that one is I don’t need to keep him at full happiness, (0:31:13) Al: which isn’t hard normally, (0:31:15) Al: but I’m trying to do a lot of stuff in general. (0:31:16) Al: look, Emily’s at home, I’ve already married Emily, she can be looking… yeah. I don’t (0:31:20) Kelly: Yeah, and then not come home. (0:31:36) Kelly: Because you committed animal neglect? (0:31:42) Kelly: You’re married already?! (0:31:46) Al: know how much I’ve played this game in the last week, Kelly. (0:31:49) Kelly: No, I just I truly don’t care about marrying people and so I think that’s always the last thing that I focus on (0:31:55) Al: I oh yes so that’s what I was going to talk about so my yes I was going to talk about Clint because I was talking about Clint. So last episode I had mentioned that I was romancing Emily and I had previously romanced Hailey. Hailey was my my first instard you and let me but we’re not in the same save file. So come on I’m not that and not that terrible although that would be interesting. (0:32:00) Kelly: Yeah, so we got so sidetracked, oh my god (0:32:14) Kelly: The sisters? (0:32:18) Kelly: Oh, okay. (0:32:25) Al: No, I I I romanced Hailey in my first Stardew game and the reason why I did that is I suspect the same reason everybody does Hailey is she’s mean to you when you first talk to her and you’re like “oh well I’m gonna have to I’m gonna have to change that”. Feels like a challenge. (0:32:38) Kelly: Umm, yeah, that’s what I did with Alex, cause he’s just mean to you. (0:32:49) Al: Yeah, yeah same thing. (0:32:50) Kelly: Yeah, I mean it makes sense cause there are each other’s, you know, counterparts or whatever. (0:32:55) Al: Yeah, yeah exactly, exactly. So that was my first one and then my second one I did (0:32:59) Kelly: Okay. Mm-hmm. (0:33:00) Al: Leah just as something a bit different. I thought she was quite a different character so I thought I’d go for her and then this one I don’t know why I decided with Emily. I just I just did and then the whole Clint stuff and I was like well this sounds fun and then so when I recorded the last episode, I was just kind of in the middle of romancing Emily. (0:33:23) Al: and… (0:33:25) Al: Johnny had mentioned how that was obviously because I was doing that and the Georgia stuff I was doing the full evil run (0:33:31) Al: Um, and I was like, ah, you know clint’s a wimp. Um, he doesn’t even try (0:33:34) Kelly: No, wait, wait, wait, what do you mean, what do you mean the evil run, you are, this is negating the horrors of your Jojo Mart because you are saving Emily from Clint. (0:33:44) Al: Well, because it’s… I don’t think she needs saved from Clint, I’ll be honest with you. (0:33:52) Kelly: No, but I mean, I hate him, so… (0:33:55) Al: Yeah, well, exactly. This was my point, is that I didn’t think it was that bad, because I think that Clint is just pathetic, and he doesn’t even bother trying, he just kind of mopes around. And then, so, I am now married to her, so I have officially broken his heart, (0:34:04) Kelly: Mmhmm. (0:34:08) Kelly: Yeah. (0:34:15) Al: but the best bit was it was amazing. There’s one of the heart, I think it’s… I’m assuming it’s a heart event for Emily. You turn up at Mayor Lewis’s house, and Emily is doing some clothes related, try out some new clothes thing with a bunch of people. And so, you do this and like a bunch of different people. (0:34:38) Kelly: Oh, I think I know what you’re talking about, yeah. (0:34:44) Al: It’s just you and Emily left and you have a moment with Emily and it’s all lovely. (0:34:57) Al: And then Clint walks back in and he sees you both and he’s like, “Oh, I guess I interrupted something.” (0:35:04) Al: And just before he leaves, he says, “Well, you win,” and walks away. (0:35:08) Kelly: Oh god, but see that’s why he’s such a sad sack little loser no he’s just like he’s the mopey kid in the corner (0:35:10) Al: And you’re just like, “Wow! (0:35:14) Al: Way to do it.” (0:35:16) Al: Like, “Oh, my word! (0:35:17) Al: So pathetic!” (0:35:18) Al: I’m just like, “You didn’t even try! (0:35:26) Al: What are you doing?” (0:35:28) Al: And he’s like, “Oh, can you give this thing to Emily?” (0:35:32) Al: It’s like, “Give it to yourself! (0:35:33) Al: You want me to give Emily a rock? (0:35:36) Al: You’re the rock guy! (0:35:37) Al: That’s your thing!” (0:35:38) Al: This is the thing, he is literally - all of Emily’s favourite things, except Cloth and and will are rocks. (0:35:44) Al: Basically, right? She likes all the things you get that he gives you. (0:35:45) Kelly: Mhmm. (0:35:49) Kelly: Mhmm. (0:35:50) Al: You just- he- he could eat- (0:35:53) Kelly: No, I fully support this because he is… (0:35:57) Kelly: He’s the little loser kid in the corner who thinks that for some reason, he is getting ignored. (0:36:05) Kelly: But he’s not doing anything. All he has to do is take a step forward. (0:36:06) Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah, give her a rock. (0:36:09) Kelly: Just be normal. Go talk to her like a person. (0:36:14) Kelly: Like, it’s so simple. (0:36:15) Al: Weird isn’t necessarily bad though, that’s the thing, you just need to actually try. (0:36:15) Kelly: Just… just talk to her like you talked to me, Clint, but maybe not ‘cause you’re still weird. (0:36:23) Kelly: No, I don’t mean weird in that way. I mean, he’s… I don’t like his mentality. (0:36:27) Al: I agree. (0:36:30) Al: He feels like he is the victim despite never even trying in it. (0:36:32) Kelly: He’s the victim. (0:36:36) Kelly: Yeah. (0:36:36) Al: Agreed. (0:36:37) Kelly: He’s the victim who put himself in a hole. (0:36:40) Kelly: Yeah, well… (0:36:42) Al: So, yeah, I have defeated him and broken his heart and now I’m married to Emily and all is good with the work. (0:36:49) Kelly: Yeah, that’s good. (0:36:51) Kelly: I’m happy for you. (0:36:52) Al: Anyway, sorry, I interrupted you. So, yeah, the new farm, you have enjoyed having chickens and getting mayo. (0:37:00) Al: I love also, I don’t know what you think about this, but I love how you can drink mayo now, not because I’ve ever done it, (0:37:06) Al: just because like in terms of the game, it’s a really good energy source really early on for this farm. (0:37:12) Kelly: Oh, I actually did not try it. (0:37:15) Kelly: Um, but I do know that it upsets the people around you if you do drink it around people. (0:37:20) Al: Yes. I mean, most of the time you’re not eating in front of people, right? Like, most of the time you’re downing something as you’re halfway down the mine. Let’s not pretend like, you know, (0:37:26) Kelly: Yeah, yeah. (0:37:29) Al: the people who are finding out that people don’t like seeing you drink mayo, they’re doing it just to see what happens. You’re not– Yeah, sure, but you– Sure, but you don’t go into Mayor Lewis’s house to drink some mayo, right? Like, that’s just not a thing you do. (0:37:35) Kelly: I mean, listen, sometimes I get caught opening trash cans when people are around. (0:37:39) Kelly: Sometimes I don’t think about stuff. (0:37:43) Kelly: No. (0:37:44) Kelly: No. (0:37:47) Kelly: Um, but no, I thought that was a funny little update. (0:37:50) Kelly: Just like a silly little thing. (0:37:52) Kelly: Who doesn’t love silly little things? (0:37:54) Al: how is your farm so far then you’ve you’re at your at the end of summer is that (0:37:58) Kelly: Um, I am, I think, day 18 of summer? (0:38:04) Al: the 18th of summer year one (0:38:06) Kelly: Yeah, so, good so far, I do need to get more into the mines because I need a sprinkler, (0:38:14) Kelly: so I need, I miss them. (0:38:16) Kelly: It’s just like, I want to grow everything, but then I don’t want to have to water everything, (0:38:19) Kelly: and yeah, it’s really nice to have your watering can updated, but it’s still not enough. (0:38:23) Kelly: And it takes so much time and so much energy, but it’s going good so far, I moved everything, (0:38:29) Kelly: I like the setup of the farm so far, I think I have a good idea of where I want to put my barn and stuff. (0:38:35) Kelly: Um, but I did move all of my crops down to the, is everybody’s farm different, and it’s just like similar concepts, or are they, the same, right? (0:38:41) Al: No, it’s the same layout, yeah. (0:38:44) Kelly: So I moved it down to, by that lake at the bottom left. (0:38:48) Al: OK, I’m still using the top, the stuff just underneath your farm because I have the greenhouse. (0:38:52) Kelly: That’s what I was using at first, I got fed up with the, the watering can. (0:38:57) Al: Yeah, fair. (0:38:59) Al: Yeah, that is one big disadvantage is that you are quite far away from water up there, but everything’s sprinkled for me now. (0:39:04) Kelly: Yeah. (0:39:07) Kelly: Yeah, see, once I get to that stage, (0:39:08) Kelly: it’s like, okay, I can pick and choose how I wanna do it. (0:39:11) Kelly: Although last time I used that area for fish, (0:39:17) Kelly: whatchamacallit, (0:39:20) Al: Oh, fish buns. (0:39:20) Kelly: yes, the roe, the roe pons. (0:39:21) Al: Right, I was like, you just have fish lying on the ground? (0:39:27) Kelly: So I used that area in my last different farm for that. (0:39:33) Kelly: But I like missing room with the layout. (0:39:34) Kelly: I like literally draw them out in notebooks and like figure everything out. (0:39:37) Al: Yeah, I don’t. (0:39:38) Kelly: Yeah, no, I mean I write out (0:39:41) Kelly: the information on like how much each fruit costs, how long it takes to grow, (0:39:46) Al: I see I’m definitely, I’m just at the point now where I’m just like well I’m just growing. (0:39:47) Kelly: how much it costs to pickle. (0:39:53) Kelly: Yeah, now you’re having fun. Yeah. (0:39:54) Al: Ancient fruit, ancient fruit in my greenhouse and whatever one specific crop is the best one to do outside, which is summer just now so it’s star fruit. (0:39:57) Kelly: Yeah, exactly. (0:40:01) Kelly: Yeah. (0:40:04) Kelly: Yeah, but no, I like the aspect of making my little lists. (0:40:10) Kelly: I like making lists. (0:40:14) Kelly: I got green rain the other day. (0:40:16) Al: The green rain is great. I got that for the second time today. (0:40:18) Kelly: I’ve never had it, my God, it was so cool. (0:40:22) Kelly: Cuz it’s only in summer, right? (0:40:24) Al: It is. I’m pretty sure it’s the seventh of summer it happens on, because I’m sure that was the same both years for me, but it might. (0:40:30) Kelly: Oh, see, I heard it could be different. I heard it’s rare and it doesn’t- (0:40:34) Al: Well, I’ve had it both summers, so I don’t think it’s that rare. (0:40:39) Kelly: okay but oh my god what a cool little event it made the insides of the houses so dark and eerie (0:40:43) Al: Yeah. (0:40:46) Al: I really like it. I especially the second time around, I noticed that it also makes all your trees suddenly grow to full height, which is cool. (0:40:49) Kelly: I got so much moss (0:40:55) Kelly: yes because I got a lot of my trees back in my yard um (0:40:59) Al: Yeah. Which was especially good for me because I was growing the hardwood trees at that point, (0:41:04) Al: and so I suddenly had 10 hardwood trees, and I was like, “Yes! All the hardwood! Fantastic!” (0:41:05) Kelly: oh that’s nice. That is so nice. (0:41:10) Kelly: I really liked that they had those fiddlehead fern trees in the forest area, down below your house, because I don’t have access to secret woods yet. (0:41:16) Al: - Yeah. (0:41:21) Al: - Yes. (0:41:27) Al: - Yeah, I think that’s also what I mentioned in the last episode. (0:41:30) Al: That’s another really good thing about this farm is it has both hardwood logs on it. (0:41:34) Kelly: Mm-hmm (0:41:36) Al: And the big hardwood log, you have to have a gold ax for, (0:41:40) Kelly: Mm-hmm, which I’m not up to yet (0:41:40) Al: but the, no, but the smaller one, (0:41:43) Al: you just have to have an iron axe for. (0:41:45) Kelly: Yes, which I am very close to (0:41:46) Al: And so you can get hard with much quicker. (0:41:49) Kelly: Yeah, which is so nice cuz there’s so many things that for crafting you need to you need the hardwood (0:41:55) Al: Yeah. Yeah. I think, do you not even need that for, I think, is it cheese maker you need that for? (0:42:00) Kelly: Yeah, because I was gonna go make one and I was like ah hardwood, and I have some hardwood, but I don’t have enough hardwood (0:42:03) Al: Yeah. Frustrating. (0:42:08) Kelly: What else I really like that now when your menu it like (0:42:13) Kelly: Blips the community bundle button (0:42:18) Al: I will say it has done that since 1.4, it’s just it seems to be something that people just keep (0:42:20) Kelly: Has it okay, well (0:42:23) Kelly: You know what? (0:42:27) Al: realizing every time they play it again. It’s like oh this is cool that it’s something a bunch of new people learn because I’ve seen because I’ve seen concerned a tweet about it three different times over the last five years and everyone’s like oh wow that’s a great new feature and is like no no I’m just reminding people because I yeah because I (0:42:32) Kelly: You know what? (0:42:32) Kelly: Maybe it’s just the best feature. (0:42:40) Kelly: Well, I just learned about it. (0:42:48) Al: because I’ll tell you how I know that it was definitely 1.4 is because I didn’t do community center this time. I didn’t play 1.5 but I used that feature quite a lot so there you go. (0:42:59) Kelly: Uh, okay. (0:43:02) Kelly: The sea jellies and the river jellies are very interesting. I don’t know what they’re for yet, but they’re cool-looking. (0:43:06) Al: You can eat them, but also there’s a specific one crafting that I know of that uses it. (0:43:10) Kelly: Yeah. (0:43:15) Kelly: Yeah, I figured there would, I figured there would be something. I’m very much in the… (0:43:19) Al: It’s something you’re going to like, personally. (0:43:21) Kelly: Okay, okay, but I’m, no, I’ll wait. I’m very much in the… (0:43:23) Al: Do you want to know what it is or not? (0:43:25) Al: No. (0:43:26) Al: OK. (0:43:27) Al: I need you to tell me what you think of it when you get it, because I think you’ll like this new item. (0:43:29) Kelly: » Okay, I’m excited. (0:43:34) Kelly: But I’m very much in the mentality of hoard things first and then later I don’t have to deal with it as much. (0:43:38) Al: Oh, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah, like it took me three months to figure out what the Moss was for. Yeah. (0:43:46) Kelly: Yeah, I’m still waiting on that one, I don’t know yet. (0:43:49) Kelly: I got so much moss though from that rain. (0:43:51) Kelly: I was like, my God, we’re going ham. (0:43:53) Kelly: And then I love how after a whole bunch of trees are still covered in moss. (0:43:58) Al: Yes Not just on your farm as well (0:44:00) Kelly: It’s like, this is the residue. (0:44:03) Kelly: Mm-hm, but also great for just fiber in general, (0:44:06) Kelly: because fiber can kind of be hard to come by sometimes. (0:44:10) Al: Yeah, especially if you want to grow tea saplings, (0:44:13) Kelly: Mm-hm, so that was really cool. (0:44:15) Al: which is a good source of early game money. (0:44:16) Kelly: I think overall, I just really liked that event. (0:44:18) Kelly: and I looked at the camera and I thought, “Oh, I’m gonna do it.” (0:44:20) Al: I agree. My first time on it, I didn’t do very much on it because I didn’t have a lot of energy and obviously it runs out early, but I literally got my second one today and I cut down every single tree that I found and I cut up all of the moss on the ground. I think I had like like 200 moss or something by the end of it. (0:44:40) Kelly: Yeah, I think that’s- I think that’s about what I got. I was like, I’m just gonna take food with me and empty my pockets and go. (0:44:46) Al: It’s definitely worth it. Did you talk to anyone during the event? (0:44:49) Kelly: Yeah, I went to the salon, which I was actually kind of pissed about because I wanted… (0:44:51) Al: Oh yeah, saloon, not salon, different things. (0:44:54) Kelly: Whatever. Yeah, I know. (0:44:56) Kelly: Listen, I know what the word is and what I’m gonna call it in my head are two entirely different things. (0:45:01) Al: It’s all right, I call it a pub anyway because saloon is a very American word. (0:45:06) Kelly: Yeah, yeah. (0:45:07) Kelly: Um… (0:45:10) Kelly: But I went there because I was like, “Oh, I’ll buy some more salads so that I have a ton of energy today, and then tomorrow if I want to go in the mines or something, I have a salad or something with me.” (0:45:22) Kelly: And then I went in there and you couldn’t even buy anything because everybody was just in panic mode. (0:45:27) Al: Yeah, yeah, did you find Demetrius? (0:45:30) Kelly: No, I did not because I was like, “You know what? I don’t care. I’m gonna go cut the trees down.” (0:45:34) Al: He’s so funny, he’s up by his house, (0:45:37) Al: dressed up in a hazmat suit. (0:45:40) Kelly: No, I did see a tweet about that, actually. Damn. (0:45:42) Al: He’s so funny. (0:45:42) Kelly: I wish I wanted to see that. I forgot that those were the connected events. (0:45:47) Al: Everybody else goes to the pub. (0:45:49) Al: He’s out in a hazmat suit. (0:45:52) Kelly: He’s an interesting little man, you know? (0:45:54) Al: Yes, yes he is. (0:45:56) Kelly: But no, I was like, “You know what? I gotta find these fiddlehead ferns, so I need to get out of here.” (0:46:02) Kelly: I was like, “Back to cutting down trees. This is too much interaction.” (0:46:08) Kelly: What else there was (0:46:10) Kelly: There was other things and now I can’t think of them (0:46:12) Al: So, this game is a lot about kind of the small quality of life updates, how have you found, (0:46:20) Al: obviously we talked about the new farm, are there other kind of day-to-day things you’ve been doing that you found different in the game? (0:46:31) Kelly: And that’s what I’m trying to think. I feel like there was, and now I cannot think, um… (0:46:36) Al: Feel free to get the patch notes up for on the stardew website. (0:46:40) Kelly: That’s what I’m literally… (0:46:42) Al: I presume you haven’t been to the desert festival? (0:46:44) Kelly: No, no, no, no, not yet, um… (0:46:46) Al: It’s very hard to get that in the in the first year but I’ve just been to it and I I very much enjoyed that. It’s good fun. It ties together a bunch of different things in the desert (0:46:48) Kelly: Yeah. (0:46:56) Kelly: Oh, I’m excited for the the fishing derbies tomorrow. Today. Today! (0:46:57) Al: which is good fun. (0:47:03) Al: Yes. (0:47:05) Al: T-t-today. (0:47:06) Kelly: Um, I like that that um, I haven’t really experienced it yet but I saw something about the mastery system which I think is very interesting and I am excited to see how that plays out. (0:47:15) Al: I’m so close I just need to get my fishing up to 10 and then I can do it. (0:47:17) Kelly: Ah. Um, what else? Oh, the prize machine! (0:47:23) Al: Yes have you done that? (0:47:24) Kelly: Yes, I got two tickets so far. (0:47:26) Kelly: And I got an apricot tree. (0:

Al and Kelly talk about Pumpkin panic Join Al and Kelly in a quick journey through the world of cottagecore gaming. They share their experiences with “Pumpkin Panic,” discuss recent news, and leave you feeling cozy and inspired. Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:03:00: What Have We Been Up To 00:13:42: News 00:55:48: Pumpkin Panic 01:24:30: Outro Links Disney Dreamlight Valley Leaves Early Access Spirittea Release Len’s Island Roadmap Updated Moonstone Island Updated and DLC Released Stardew Valley Horseradish Juice Echoes of the Plum Grove Steam Page Echoes of the Plum Grove Kickstarter Pumpkin Panic Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Al: Hello farmers and welcome to another episode of the harvest season. (0:00:36) Al: My name is Al, and we’re here today to talk about cottagecore games. (0:00:37) Kelly: And my name is Kelly. (0:00:38) Kelly: Woo! (0:00:43) Al: Two weeks in a row Kelly, what’s happening here? (0:00:50) Kelly: I know. It’s even funny because Kevin brought it up. I did last year’s Halloween. (0:00:56) Kelly: Which I totally forgot. Because I totally forgot Cult of the Lamb came out last year. (0:00:56) Al: Yes. That was last year, my word, wild. Yes. Yeah, yeah. I mean, why not? But hey, I’m on, I think this is, is this my first Halloween ep? No, no, I was on one with Rochelle, the original Graveyard Keeper one, I think, I was on. But I hadn’t played the game, so Rochelle I was basically just telling me. (0:01:01) Kelly: Yeah. It’s just my season. I don’t know what to say. (0:01:18) Kelly: I was gonna say Kevin brought that up last time actually, yeah. (0:01:22) Kelly: Okay. (0:01:24) Kelly: Well, welcome to your own podcast Halloween episode. (0:01:26) Al: about it and I was asking questions, but I think I’ve not been on any of the other Halloween episodes. So I’m here. Yay. Awesome. Well, thank you for joining us, Kelly. It’s good to talk to you again, even if Kevin did steal you from me for the last week. This one has been organized for much longer. Much longer. Yeah. Yeah. We have had a bunch of different ideas for last week and none of them were really like enough. (0:01:43) Kelly: Of course, thank you. (0:01:45) Kelly: I will say we planned this one. Yes. Last week was very impromptu. This is very much so planned. (0:02:01) Al: And there was a point where Kevin was like, I can’t do the recording time we have. And I’m like, well, I’m traveling the rest of the time. So so he kicked me off. He kicked me off my own podcast and and brought you on instead. So thank you very much for that. (0:02:16) Kelly: Always a pleasure. I did have to do a little, like, briefing on it though, because I hadn’t played Graveyard Keeper in, like, a year, and I was like, “Oh, what is this game again?” (0:02:19) Al: Oh, yes. Fair enough. (0:02:26) Al: Well, we don’t have that problem with this week’s game because it’s incredibly quick to play some of it and get a very good idea of what this game is. So this episode, we’re going to talk about pumpkin panic. And we’ll have lots to say about that later on in the episode. But yes, we’re going to talk about that just to mention that transcripts are available for the podcast in the show notes and on the website. So if you need that, that’s (0:02:57) Al: OK. Before we talk about pumpkin panic, we’re going to talk about the news. But first of all, Kelly, what have you been up to? (0:03:02) Kelly: I have been playing, I actually just finished this morning, I started playing the cosmic wheel of sisterhood. (0:03:16) Kelly: So this is an interactive story game where you play as a witch who has been banished from her coven, and you are kind of trying to make your way back. (0:03:32) Kelly: You play into your coven and you create tarot cards and you read the tarot cards to kind of create the gameplay in the world. (0:03:45) Kelly: And you have visitors. (0:03:48) Kelly: So I am not always great at story games because as much as I love reading, I also get very frustrated at a lot of stories in games. (0:03:53) Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:03:58) Kelly: And I thought this, they did this so good. (0:04:01) Kelly: I thought it was so much fun. (0:04:02) Kelly: Because you’re so hands-on with it. (0:04:03) Al: This seems a little bit more involved than a standard visual novel. (0:04:12) Al: Is it just mainly the one minigame that I’m seeing on this Steam page? (0:04:16) Kelly: Um, what is… what is… (0:04:18) Kelly: Um, kind of. So that’s like… (0:04:18) Al: with making the cards. (0:04:22) Kelly: You have that, you can do like there’s interactive stories within the story. (0:04:27) Kelly: Um, so there’s like different… I wouldn’t call them mini-games, but like the interactions are the rest of it. (0:04:33) Al: Right, OK. (0:04:33) Kelly: Um, and… (0:04:34) Al: But it’s not it’s not just like click a button and see the next. (0:04:36) Kelly: You kind of… like obviously… (0:04:40) Kelly: No, no, no, no. Yeah, there’s definitely… (0:04:42) Al: Here’s one choice sort of thing, right? (0:04:46) Kelly: You make the choices as to what you’re gonna do, who you would mite over to your little house. (0:04:50) Kelly: Um, and then… (0:04:53) Kelly: Even when you pull a tarot card, you have the choice as to how to explain the card. (0:04:57) Kelly: So, there is a lot of, um, leeway into how the interactions go and how the story itself is gonna go. (0:05:05) Kelly: So like I did a run, and I can do a totally different run next time. (0:05:06) Al: Okay. All right. (0:05:11) Kelly: So you do have you really do like you kind of write the story yourself as much as you can for you know (0:05:19) Al: It has very positive reviews on Steam, it has over a thousand. (0:05:23) Kelly: demo. There’s a demo which I would highly suggest playing because that’s definitely what I did and once I finished the demo I immediately bought the game and all of your stuff transfers over which is so nice because I hate when you start a demo especially for a game like this and you got to start it over. But yeah I thought it was like a very nice little like casual gameplay but like still very interesting. And like kind of emotional. (0:05:53) Al: Shocking when they make you feel things. How dare they? (0:05:53) Kelly: Right? What have you been up to, Al? (0:05:56) Al: Well, speaking of making you feeling things, before I get into games, I have watched the new film “Killers of the Flower Moon”. Have you seen… I presume you haven’t seen… (0:06:08) Kelly: I have not seen it yet, however I have owned that book for like a decade or so. (0:06:14) Al: Yeah, mm-hmm (0:06:15) Kelly: My dad bought it years ago. My dad’s a very big like historical novel kind of person and then we actually read it in my book club about two years ago or a year ago. I really enjoyed it. I thought the book was very good. I have not watched the movie yet, but I’ve heard very positive reviews. (0:06:28) Al: » Okay. Yeah. (0:06:38) Kelly: Even from the Native American community about the movie, of course there’s some things that probably could have been done differently, (0:06:45) Kelly: but I think that’s anytime it happens when you’re telling somebody else’s story. (0:06:46) Al: Hmm. I think, yeah, yeah, definitely. I think there’s a lot about the film that is obviously, (0:06:54) Al: you know, there’s some, you know, some racist stuff in the film, right? Obviously. But that’s the sort of thing where it’s like, well, yeah, but you’re talking about a, you know, a racist crime, (0:06:57) Kelly: Mm-hmm Yeah, yeah, you’re telling a story from 1930 or 20 or whatever (0:07:04) Al: right? Like, yeah, yeah, exactly. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s not, don’t go into expecting a good time. (0:07:15) Kelly: Yeah, and unfortunately I don’t think the story would be accurate if those things are kind of left out because they do play a big role in what’s going on with the story itself. (0:07:16) Al: No, of course. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I enjoyed that. It’s very long. It’s very long. So that’s why I was up really late on Thursday night because of that. (0:07:26) Kelly: But crazy. Yes. (0:07:37) Al: Because I saw the showing started at half seven and like I wasn’t home until quarter past midnight. (0:07:44) Kelly: Wow. Wow. (0:07:44) Al: So. (laughs) (0:07:46) Al: I don’t regret going to see it, it was very good. (0:07:49) Kelly: Which I feel like is such a… it’s such a hard thing to achieve with some of this… (0:07:49) Al: And I don’t think it was… (0:07:51) Al: Like, it doesn’t feel like it was unnecessarily long, right? (0:07:54) Al: Like, I feel like he was doing something with every minute that you had. (0:07:58) Al: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. (0:08:03) Kelly: these stories. Like, I mean, I feel like I didn’t see Oppenheimer, but I feel like that a lot of people talked about that. (0:08:09) Kelly: Feeling kind of like dragged out in a lot of spots. (0:08:12) Al: Interesting. Yeah, I suspect a lot of these things depends on how you feel about quiet moments that make you contemplate. Right. Absolutely. You can’t be talking about a massacre or about, (0:08:21) Kelly: Which I think these stories need those moments. (0:08:24) Kelly: So I don’t see anything wrong with that. (0:08:27) Kelly: Yeah, just on to the next scene. (0:08:30) Al: you know, wiping out of a city without having some moments to make you think, “Wow, that’s bad!” (0:08:40) Al: Exactly, exactly. So it’s quite great. (0:08:42) Al: So I enjoyed it. It was good. I don’t think I’m going to watch it a second time. It’s not like I’m going to watch this film again. But yeah. (0:08:54) Kelly: I will say on that note, the book is also extremely good. I know, Allie, you said you’re probably not going to read it, but if anybody out there is interested, very interesting. (0:09:05) Al: Yeah, people don’t really. Yeah. (0:09:10) Kelly: I think some historical novels can be kind of boring and dragged out because I do read a lot of history. This was very good. This was written in a way that like really you You just, you had to keep going. (0:09:24) Kelly: No matter what. It wasn’t, it wasn’t… (0:09:26) Kelly: Umm, oh my god, what’s his name? (0:09:28) Kelly: The Devil in White City guy, Eric Larson. (0:09:30) Kelly: I like some of his works. They can also be a bit cumbersome. (0:09:31) Al: Yeah. Fair enough. Yeah. I mean, just to make a point of it, like people don’t like when I talk about the fact that I don’t really read books, but I don’t really read books. (0:09:34) Kelly: So I don’t think it was like that. (0:09:47) Al: And it’s not like I read books as a child. And the problem is that I just I struggle because I don’t have like the visual aspect in my brain. Like I’m not I’m not able to see the things that are described. So so much of a book I just kind of skim over. (0:09:53) Kelly: Yes, yeah. (0:10:01) Al: Because it’s like descriptive stuff that doesn’t really mean anything because I can’t see it. (0:10:04) Kelly: Whereas I’m the complete opposite and I see everything in my head and then I get really mad when the movie comes out and skews my perspective on how I envisioned everything. (0:10:05) Al: Um… (0:10:12) Al: Yeah. I always found that hilarious when people were like, “Oh, it’s nothing like what it is in the book. It’s not like what I imagined it.” And I’m like, “What do you mean it’s nothing like what you imagined it?” I don’t understand what you mean by this. And now that I understand that people now make up images in their head, suddenly I understand what they mean now. They’re like, (0:10:22) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:10:32) Kelly: Yep Yep, it’s it’s so funny cuz like my roommate is like you she can’t see anything in her head and I’m like, well What do you what do you mean? What do you how are you living? I don’t understand Well, I am That is the that is the issue Thank you. (0:10:33) Al: “Oh, this isn’t exactly what I had imagined in my head.” (0:10:46) Al: Oh, I’m just like, how do you ever get anything done? Are you not constantly distracted by the things in your head? (0:11:00) Al: So I’ve also played a bunch of games, because I apparently haven’t been on the podcast for multiple episodes. So I have played and finished Sonic Superstars and Mario Wonder, and I have been playing through the new Spider-Man game. That is taking me longer, because just like It’s on my PS5, you have to kind of sit down and deliver. (0:11:16) Al: All those games are great, Sonic Super Star is good, Mario Wonder is fantastic, Spider-Man is fantastic. (0:11:28) Al: Both of those two games did things that I couldn’t, I just wouldn’t have expected what they did. (0:11:36) Al: It’s not just like, oh there are another version of this game, right? (0:11:41) Al: They both do things that are like, this is brand new stuff, really interesting. (0:11:41) Kelly: I think that’s so exciting, especially for the Mario games because I feel like, you know, (0:11:46) Al: That I really, really like. (0:11:48) Al: Yeah. (0:11:50) Al: Yeah. (0:11:52) Kelly: how long has it been? (0:11:52) Al: Yeah. (0:11:53) Kelly: How many games have come out? (0:11:54) Al: Yeah. (0:11:55) Kelly: Like, how do you keep reinventing the wheel? (0:11:56) Al: Yeah, definitely. (0:11:58) Kelly: But it’s still exciting to find out that they can. (0:11:58) Al: Yeah, and I think, I mean I don’t think they need to do that for every single game. (0:12:02) Kelly: No! (0:12:02) Al: Like I enjoyed every game in the new series. (0:12:07) Al: Like they’re all fun, they don’t have to be completely different, they all have new challenges in their different levels. (0:12:13) Al: levels but it is also fun to occasionally get like this is just. (0:12:16) Al: Just a completely different way of thinking and the the Wonderflowers just do just crazy things in the levels that make it just so different. (0:12:26) Al: You know it’s not just like oh here’s a different power-up and the new power-ups are fun as well but it’s not just like oh this one’s a bubble instead of a fire right and that’s that’s fun but it’s not like a radical idea whereas like the Wonderflowers are like what if this was a top-down game instead of a side-scroller and you’re like. (0:12:46) Al: Like what if apparently now we’re doing that you know like I think it’s the weird stuff that they did with that game and it’s like what if the Piranha plant sang you know. (0:12:57) Kelly: Oh my god, I saw the clips of that, they’re so cute! (0:13:02) Al: It’s just like I love the idea of that it’s just brainstorm a hundred and the weird thing is every single level has one right it’s not like this is the sort of thing that you wouldn’t you if if they told you but you’re like oh that’d be fun so like you know it’d be like all the boss battles. (0:13:16) Al: Have them or what like this. (0:13:16) Kelly: That’s cool. That’s very cool. (0:13:18) Al: A couple of levels in every world. (0:13:20) Al: Every single world has one. (0:13:25) Al: So yeah, good fun. (0:13:26) Al: I’ve also been playing Harvest Moon Winds of Anthos because I need to play that. (0:13:32) Al: So I’ll talk about that next week. (0:13:35) Al: I don’t think we need to talk about that just now. (0:13:39) Al: It is what it is. (0:13:40) Al: Cool. (0:13:41) Al: News. Should we talk about some news? (0:13:47) Al: Let’s start with the controversial stuff. (0:13:50) Al: Disney Dreamlight Valley. (0:13:51) Al: Have you played this yet? (0:13:52) Kelly: No, I have not. I think when it first like when they first announced it I was like oh this looks really cute If I’m not playing anything, I’ll probably play it Yes So I don’t think I will be playing Because like free to play You know, I know there’s gonna be some payment stuff, but you can kind of avoid it sometimes (0:14:00) Al: Yeah, were you waiting for it to go free to play? That’s the question. (0:14:04) Al: Yeah, well wait no longer! It is no longer going to be free to play! (0:14:08) Al: I think this is fast, so this is okay, so full context. (0:14:16) Al: Yes, yeah definitely. (0:14:23) Kelly: Or at least you can get an idea of what the game is before you decide to put money into it Yes, sorry jumping ahead (0:14:27) Al: so yeah so let’s okay well let’s put that let’s put the (0:14:30) Al: the discussion of that bit aside let’s let’s get into the actual news of it so the game is leaving early access on the 5th of december so that will be the first full version of the game whatever that means they have announced that it’s not going to be free to play anymore so you will have to to buy it they have also announced that there is going to be a paid dlc coming which they’re going to detail you’ll know more about this when you listen to this episode because they’re going to be saying more about it on the day this episode comes out (0:15:00) Al: that next week as well but they have also said that they are still going to continue to have free content updates so it’s not all going to be paid dlc I think that there are so many different ways to buy this game now it’s weird have you looked at the so in the main link on there they’ve got a list of the new ways to buy the game which is like you can just buy the game for $40 or you you can buy the physical cozy edition. (0:15:26) Kelly: Oh, I saw this. (0:15:30) Al: Which also gives you some stuff and that’s $50 or you can buy the gold edition, which also has more exclusive items and gives you the DLC or you can buy the DLC separately and these purchase options are on top of what the current purchase options are for early access, which you can still do until the 4th of December. (0:15:52) Al: I know it’s so bizarre. (0:15:53) Kelly: I think I got a headache just looking at this earlier. (0:15:58) Kelly: I was like, what is this, a streaming service? (0:16:00) Kelly: What the hell is this? (0:16:00) Al: I think I just it feels like so I think you can you can frame not being free to play as positive and negative right negative obviously a bunch of people who were like yeah I get to play the game without paying for it now don’t get to do that they either have to pay or they don’t get to play the game and that’s really frustrating I get why people would be frustrated by that. (0:16:22) Al: On the other hand obviously we know that free to play games are very manipulative and are very good at sucking. (0:16:26) Kelly: Oh, absolutely, yes. (0:16:28) Kelly: Well, so that’s what I was gonna ask, right? Like they’re not removing microtransactions from the game. (0:16:30) Al: But it’s not like there aren’t going to be ways to pay for things inside the game after you’ve bought it. (0:16:37) Al: No so I it feels like they’re just doing a bit of both worlds which. (0:16:42) Kelly: Yes, they want their cake and they’re gonna have their cake and eat it too kind of thing. (0:16:46) Al: Yeah yeah it’s not not great. (0:16:49) Kelly: And then the the $40 base price is kind of wild. (0:16:52) Al: It does seem let me so let me double check. (0:16:56) Kelly: To go from free-to-play to $40? (0:16:59) Kelly: Oh wait, so if you paid for early access, does that come out of the base? (0:17:00) Al: The early access prices. (0:17:02) Al: Because. (0:17:04) Al: So if you paid for access you have the game now so you don’t have to buy the game again and they’ve also said as a thank you to our early access players all unique cosmetic items included in the upcoming gold edition will be given free of charge to any player who purchases and claims of founders pack in game or on on or before December the 4th no matter the tier. (0:17:30) Kelly: Okay, that’s nice because I think… (0:17:30) Al: And not only that but all founders will also receive 2500 min stones to celebrate this that’s. (0:17:32) Kelly: Okay, that’s nice. (0:17:39) Kelly: Nice. (0:17:41) Al: So let me just double check the prices for… (0:17:47) Al: Yes, so here we are. So there’s three different versions you can buy in Early Access. (0:17:50) Al: Well, this is the thing. This is where it’s wild. So there’s the standard Founders Edition, (0:17:51) Kelly: Oh my god. But how many tears? (0:18:01) Al: which is the Early Access to Dreamland Valley plus 8,000 Moonstones plus a bunch of exclusive stuff, (0:18:08) Al: and that is $30. So $10. (0:18:11) Al: cheaper than the final price. And then there’s the deluxe founders rewards which gives you 14,500 moonstones. I don’t know why they insist on always like it’s not 15, why not 15? Weird. And a bunch of more exclusive items and that one I don’t have a price for but I think it might have been, it was either 50 or 60. (0:18:34) Kelly: Well, that’s 50 on here, on the regular one. (0:18:36) Al: Yeah. I think, I think… (0:18:42) Al: Yeah, it’s 50, 50. And then there’s the ultimate founders edition which gives you 20,000 moonstones and a bunch of extra cosmetic things. And that one was $6, $70? (0:18:58) Kelly: Okay, I think that makes sense because the gold edition for the standard game is (0:19:03) Al: So there are like seven different ways to buy this game. All with different things. (0:19:08) Kelly: Oh my god. (0:19:10) Kelly: And then the DLC is $30. (0:19:11) Al: So it’s like if you… Yes, which is only included in the Gold Edition, not as far as I can tell, (0:19:19) Al: any of the Early Access editions. So if you have Early Access, you still have to pay for the (0:19:25) Kelly: I have some things I’d like to say, and I’m gonna maybe keep them to myself. (0:19:31) Al: So I will say you do get a capybara companion if you buy the gold edition. (0:19:31) Kelly: It is very cute. It’s very cute. It has a flower crown. (0:19:40) Al: A flowery capybara companion. (0:19:41) Kelly: I mean, you can’t go wrong with the capybara. (0:19:46) Al: True that. (0:19:48) Kelly: Listen, the game looks so cute. I think that’s why this is kind of so disappointing. (0:19:52) Al: Yes, yeah, yeah, it is. (0:19:59) Al: So I think it is a good game and if you said to me this game… (0:20:01) Al: Why did they say that? Why did they even say that? (0:20:04) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:20:20) Kelly: Exactly. They made the promise. Yeah. (0:20:23) Kelly: And that’s so frustrating because that’s what they’ve been writing on since they announced this. Like why, why, why? And then to announce the changes a month before. (0:20:37) Al: Just why? (0:20:39) Al: I know, I know, I know it’s so… (0:20:40) Kelly: And then also, so if you buy the cozy edition, besides the flowery capybara and the expansion (0:20:50) Kelly: is there anything else you’re missing? Like are you limited from gameplay? Okay. (0:20:52) Al: No, no you’re not, you’re not. So the only gameplay, so everything that’s exclusive outside of the expansion pass, everything that’s exclusive is just cosmetics. If you buy, if you… it is, isn’t it? It’s not quite that bad yet, but it definitely feels like that’s where they’re going yes the funny thing is (0:21:07) Kelly: Okay, that’s a little bit better, but you know what? It’s giving me sims. (0:21:14) Kelly: No, but it’s getting there. Yeah. (0:21:22) Al: right see if you buy the base game and you buy the expansion pass that’s one cent cheaper than buying the gold edition which gives you the base game and the expansion pass I mean it also gives you the it does give you the capacity is the capybara worth one cent that’s the it just seems like why is the gold edition the same price as it seems weird (0:21:33) Kelly: Yeah, but no capybara. (0:21:47) Kelly: It does, like also, like okay so if you if you do really want to play this game, (0:21:51) Kelly: why would you buy the base edition and the expansion pack instead of just buying the gold edition? (0:21:55) Kelly: Again, this is just such a headache to look at. (0:21:55) Al: Yeah, yeah, well, that’s that yeah, so yeah seven different seven different ways to buy this game You either buy it in one of the three early access ways of buying it or you buy it in one of the three Non-early access ways to buy it if you wait till the 5th of December and then you either buy the expansion mass or not We don’t know what’s in the expansion pass exactly they’ll be telling us that on Wednesday today if you’re listening on the day this comes out (0:22:24) Al: There are some hints. (0:22:25) Al: There we’ve seen Gaston and… oh is that Rapunzel? I think it’s Rapunzel. (0:22:33) Kelly: Oh, yes, that’s Rapunzel in the back. And then, uh, Eva. Eve, Eve. (0:22:34) Al: Who’s the little robot? Oh was that from Wally? (0:22:38) Kelly: Eeeve. (0:22:40) Kelly: Yeah, from Wally. (0:22:41) Al: Okay I still haven’t seen Wally. I know, I know. So I went through a period of time of just not watching Disney Pixar stuff. (0:22:42) Kelly: What? (0:22:44) Kelly: Ugh. (0:22:47) Kelly: I mean, I’ve never seen Tangled, so whatever, but Wally’s so good. (0:22:52) Al: I have seen (0:22:55) Al: a few of them since, but I haven’t caught up on all of them. I just watched, what’s it called, Elemental today. (0:23:10) Kelly: How was it? I get clips on TikTok and it seems pretty cute. (0:23:14) Kelly: I feel like the trailer kind of made it seem like it was going to be like a knock-off uh… (0:23:14) Al: I enjoyed it, yeah. It’s better than the trailer that made me think it was going to be. (0:23:22) Kelly: How am I… I’m blanking on it. (0:23:24) Kelly: No, um… I can’t think right now. I don’t know. (0:23:25) Al: Anything can roll me on Juliet. (0:23:30) Kelly: It just felt very familiar, I guess, if that… (0:23:34) Al: Yeah, it is. There’s nothing particular about it that’s interesting on you, but I think it does a good job of being a fun and enjoyable and emotional way of exploring immigration and an immigrant’s family’s journey and some of those struggles. I think it does a good job. (0:23:50) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:23:52) Kelly: That’s uh, that’s like kind of like again, I watched a lot of clips on tiktok. I get so sucked into the movie clips on tiktok But I think that that’s exactly the vibe I got to I was like very surprised I feel like With the difference between the trailer and how the actual movie seemed to be See ya later. (0:24:03) Al: fair. (0:24:16) Al: Yeah. I don’t know what that trailer was about, because like the trailer came out and everyone went “this looks terrible, what are you doing?” and then the phone came out and people were like “yes, yes, sorry, it’s good, it’s good, it’s enjoyable”. Yeah. Yeah. I’m not going to say it’s the best Pixar film, but it’s certainly not the worst. It’s good. I enjoyed it. Yeah, so that’s, we don’t, we’ve seen Gaston and Rapunzel and would you say Eve? (0:24:19) Kelly: Bye. (0:24:27) Kelly: Yeah, I feel like every review I’ve seen of it, people really liked it, like they enjoyed it, so… (0:24:46) Kelly: Eve, yeah. I think that Eve, Eevee, something like that? Not Eevee, but it’s like that, yeah. (0:24:46) Al: And there’s a snake and a pig. So we don’t know a huge amount, we’ll see, but it’s, I don’t think so. (0:24:57) Kelly: Is that the jungle book? (0:24:58) Kelly: No, that’s not the snake from the jungle book. (0:25:03) Kelly: Oh, there’s a creature in the tree too. (0:25:05) Kelly: That is the jungle book. (0:25:07) Kelly: Look at the monkey in the tree. (0:25:09) Kelly: I’m pretty sure that’s the jungle book. (0:25:11) Al: Anyway, well, no more. It’s interesting that this is their first paid DLC, so they are locking content behind another paywall, which is what it is. I’m not saying that’s necessarily a bad thing. I’m just saying it is what it is. So don’t expect to pay the base price of the game and get all of the updates for free forever. That’s not going to happen. (0:25:22) Kelly: Which I think is just… (0:25:24) Kelly: Yes. (0:25:34) Kelly: I just think it’s a little wild to go from free to play to the base game is free and then the DLC is also the same price as like a game. (0:25:36) Al: It’s not Stardew Valley. (0:25:41) Al: Well, that’s the thing. If you want to now play everything that will be available on the 5th of December, it’s gone from zero to $70. Yes, you say there’s going to be more free content updates, but you know there’s going to be more paid DLC as well. (0:26:01) Kelly: Oh, and like you said, there’s transactions in the game probably too, right? (0:26:04) Al: Yep, yep, yep. So I never outright bought it. (0:26:06) Kelly: Do you have early access or no? (0:26:11) Al: Although I will now be buying it because I was waiting for it to be free before I got it on Switch. But I did have it on Game Pass for a while, and I was playing it on that. (0:26:14) Kelly: Well… (0:26:16) Kelly: Oh, uh, okay. (0:26:25) Al: The thing that I’m frustrated with free to play is not that I have to pay for the game. (0:26:28) Al: I’m fine with paying for the game. What I’m frustrated is I now have to decide what I’m playing it on. When it’s free to play, it would mean I could have it on everything and choose depending on how I’m feeling on the day or how they play on different platforms. (0:26:29) Kelly: - Yeah. (0:26:41) Al: Whereas now I need to go, or no, I need to decide do I want to on Switch or do I want to on Steam Deck. (0:26:45) Kelly: Mm-hmm That’s fair I just I think it’s just I’m mostly annoyed about being told the whole time that it’s gonna be free to play and then Getting the rug pulled out from under you a month before (0:26:46) Al: I think I’m going to do it. (0:26:54) Al: It’s bizarre. Never make these decisions upfront. Yeah. Wild. Never say, “Oh, next year when release is good.” Just don’t do it. It’s pointless. It is. I mean, it doesn’t feel like it should be that big a promise for, you know, one of the biggest companies in the world. (0:27:05) Kelly: It’s a big promise to make. (0:27:07) Kelly: No, no, no, no, it shouldn’t. (0:27:12) Kelly: I think that’s another point that I was trying not to bring up is like, come on, like of all people Do you really need to be charging this much? (0:27:21) Al: Yeah, I suspect. What I suspect is they didn’t expect it to be as popular as it has been and people to like it as much. Like, this is a good game, right? This isn’t one of these, like, “Oh, they’ve just thrown some money at someone and got a really rubbish game based on a film,” right? This is a really good game, and if you like Disney characters, (0:27:42) Al: this is a great game to play because there’s so much lore and you get to, like, be friends with the characters that you like in the games. It’s really good fun. (0:27:51) Al: And the farming is good. It’s not their best, but it’s good. It’s a good game. That’s part of the problem is I think they were probably expecting it to be a standard free to play game. The people who made those decisions, right? We’re expecting it to be like, Oh, (0:28:05) Al: this isn’t a game we’re going to manage to convince people to pay for. Oh wait, no people like the game. Oh, well, we’re gonna, we’re gonna charge people in, you know. (0:28:12) Kelly: And I think back to your point, like, I’m not… I mean, obviously I grew up on Disney, whatever. (0:28:19) Kelly: I’m not the biggest Disney person. I still wanted to play the game. Like, it looked like a good game. (0:28:24) Al: It is. It is a good farming game. It is a good cottagecore game. (0:28:26) Kelly: But I think now, like, someone like me, I’m not gonna play this game, to be quite honest. (0:28:31) Al: Yeah. (0:28:34) Kelly: Because I’m not gonna pay, whatever, 40 bucks at the minimum. (0:28:38) Kelly: I mean, to be honest, I’m mostly playing indie games, so like… (0:28:42) Kelly: He paying $40 is like, I really wanted to play this game. (0:28:42) Al: Yes, it’s cheap compared to some games, but… (0:28:45) Kelly: Yes. But by my standards, that’s a triple-A game. (0:28:52) Kelly: Literally. (0:28:53) Al: You could buy Stardew four times for that price. (0:28:55) Kelly: Literally. (0:28:59) Al: You could buy Stardew on all your consoles if you wanted, and you probably already have. (0:29:06) Al: Last couple of things, the Cozy Edition, as we mentioned, that’s the… (0:29:12) Al: physical edition. (0:29:13) Al: I do not know why they’re calling it this, it is a stupid name, but whatever. (0:29:17) Al: It has been delayed until the 10th of November, except the Switch version in North America. (0:29:25) Al: All the other versions have been delayed. (0:29:26) Kelly: How lucky. (0:29:29) Al: It’s such a weird… (0:29:30) Al: I mean, first of all, who’s buying this game physically? (0:29:33) Al: That is a weird decision to make. (0:29:35) Al: I don’t… (0:29:35) Kelly: I could see if it was released closer to Christmas or something. (0:29:36) Al: Why are you… yeah, okay, I guess that’s a good point. (0:29:39) Kelly: Like, does anything come with it? (0:29:41) Kelly: No, no, I mean like physical. (0:29:42) Al: Yeah, you do get a few cosmetics extra with it, but that’s all. (0:29:47) Al: Oh, no. (0:29:47) Kelly: No, then no. (0:29:49) Al: No, no, it’s just a case with the game and a code that gives you some extra cosmetics, (0:29:49) Kelly: Oh, not even… yeah, no, no, no. (0:29:58) Al: that’s it. (0:30:00) Al: I think, yeah, you’re probably right though, that’s exactly it. (0:30:03) Al: It’s because people will buy a game for people physically, right? (0:30:06) Kelly: Yeah. (0:30:06) Kelly: I was about to say, “Your grandma can buy a friend.” (0:30:07) Al: That’s why they always do that, because then your grandmother can walk into a shop and buy a game for you. (0:30:12) Al: Oh, they like Disney. (0:30:14) Al: Yeah, that’s exactly what it is, isn’t it? (0:30:14) Kelly: Exactly. (0:30:16) Kelly: Oh, Disney characters? (0:30:17) Kelly: This is perfect. (0:30:20) Al: Don’t buy this game physically. (0:30:23) Al: It’s weird decision to make. (0:30:24) Al: I mean, do what you want. (0:30:26) Al: I’m not. Anyway, and I guess the final point to say is that Micah has finally been vindicated because he bought the game not knowing it was going to be free to play. (0:30:35) Al: And turns out it’s not going to be free to play. (0:30:36) Kelly: Oh, really? (0:30:40) Al: So he gets the last laugh. (0:30:43) Al: I think. Yeah, he didn’t. (0:30:45) Al: It was really funny because we were I can’t remember when it was. (0:30:47) Al: But the first episode that I had him on after the game came out, (0:30:52) Al: we were talking about how he was playing it and then how he bought it. (0:30:54) Al: And then I’d mentioned that it was going to be free to play. (0:30:57) Al: And he was like, wait, what? (0:30:58) Al: It was very funny. (0:31:01) Al: I think he bought the Ultimate Founders Edition as well. (0:31:02) Kelly: Well, it seems like he was gonna pay the money no matter what, so… (0:31:03) Al: So that’s like he paid the seventy dollars. (0:31:06) Al: Well, yeah, that’s true. (0:31:08) Kelly: You know, I feel like in that instance, it doesn’t matter if it was free to play or not. (0:31:13) Al: That’s true, that’s true. (0:31:14) Al: I think that’s everything about that. Wow, we just spent 15 minutes talking about that. (0:31:21) Al: Cool, so there you go. 5th of December, that’s the important thing. If you want any of the special stuff that comes with only early access, go get that as soon as you can. If you don’t, (0:31:34) Al: then don’t. If you’re not going to buy this game, I’m sorry. There we go. (0:31:39) Al: Speaking of games coming out with less controversy. (0:31:42) Al: Spirit tea. So this is the farming game slash Spirited away type game where you are running a tea Once ago tea. Yeah. Yes And Yeah, I kick started it when I came out because I’m I thought I I actually have access to the game already I know right (0:31:55) Kelly: It’s like a tea house, bath shop. (0:31:58) Kelly: It looks so cute. (0:31:59) Kelly: I wanna get this. (0:32:01) Kelly: This is, I’m definitely getting. (0:32:08) Kelly: Oh my god. (0:32:12) Al: So, yeah, I kick started the game looking forward to playing it it is the is finally releasing on the 13th of November So if you have been looking forward to running your own little tea house tea shop wherever you want to call it with a bath house and Play with some spirits. I don’t I don’t know the right words to use with this game yet. Go go get it It’s mostly one guy who’s been developing it for a bunch of years. He’s working with a publisher But yeah, if you like game– (0:32:42) Al: games that are as indie as they come, go get it. (0:32:47) Al: Yeah, yeah, it’s not just your standard. (0:32:47) Kelly: It looks like a nice little spin on the farming game. (0:32:55) Al: Go plant some turnips and then you get better crops. (0:32:58) Kelly: Yeah. (0:32:59) Al: Lens Island have updated their roadmap, (0:33:04) Al: so they have said that their 1.0 is coming out in July 2024. (0:33:09) Al: I think this is the first official date we got from them. (0:33:12) Al: We had got some– they’d originally wanted to release it this year, (0:33:16) Al: and then at some point they’d said it would be next year. (0:33:20) Kelly: That’s nice to get a solid time actually. It always is. You’re talking to the person waiting for Silksong here, I know. (0:33:23) Al: It’s dangerous, but yeah, nice. So I look forward to Lens Island coming out in November of next year. (0:33:36) Al: They’ve also said there are going to be two more updates this year. One in November, (0:33:47) Al: which, oh look, it’s November now, and one in December, and then there’ll be a final. (0:33:53) Al: Major update before the final release in March of next year, and then the final release in July of next year. So if you are waiting for that one point of release of Lens Island, (0:34:06) Al: that’s when you’re going for it. I actually own this game as well, and I haven’t played it. (0:34:11) Al: It’s quite combat focused this game, and when I first got it when it first entered Early Access, (0:34:22) Al: because I kickstarted that. (0:34:23) Al: I need to stop kickstarting things. (0:34:26) Al: I kickstart all the farming games. (0:34:28) Kelly: You just want to be hip and say, “I was here first.” [laughs] (0:34:29) Al: It’s a sickness, Kelly. (0:34:32) Al: Yeah, I know, right? (0:34:38) Al: They didn’t have controller support at that point. (0:34:41) Al: And of course, I was playing it on my Steam Deck, so it was not fun to play with. (0:34:46) Al: So I spent like five minutes and went, nope, not doing this. (0:34:48) Al: I’m waiting for controller support. (0:34:48) Kelly: Wait, if it didn’t have– (0:34:51) Kelly: how does that work, then? (0:34:53) Al: I think you can map any button or any touchpad or anything to any standard PC controls. (0:35:03) Al: So you can say, if I press this button, (0:35:06) Al: I press this keyboard button or I press this mouse button or I do this gesture or there’s loads of clever things you can do, and it works really well for a lot of things, but it wasn’t working for this. (0:35:17) Kelly: That’s very fair. (0:35:18) Al: I was like, I need to wait for official controller support for this one. (0:35:19) Kelly: I do think it’s funny that the release date on Steam is November 26, 2021. (0:35:22) Al: So that’s what I did. (0:35:28) Kelly: ‘Cause it’s 2023? (0:35:28) Al: Why is that date funny? (0:35:31) Al: OK, well, that was the early access release date. (0:35:32) Kelly: I know, I know, but I’m just saying it’s funny to like sit here and look at the news about, you know, it getting released next year. (0:35:35) Al: OK. (0:35:37) Al: Yes, yes. (0:35:42) Al: Moonstone Island are I think I think you and Kevin talked about the DLC for that last week, they’ve announced that there is a free update coming with the DLC as well, which should be out now. (0:35:57) Al: So it includes an expansion to the green. (0:35:58) Al: House closing old mine holes. (0:36:01) Al: I don’t know what that means. (0:36:03) Al: Who knows? (0:36:03) Kelly: Umm, okay. (0:36:06) Kelly: I’m assuming monsters come out of the mine holes, maybe? (0:36:10) Al: I think it’s a creature collection game. (0:36:10) Kelly: I don’t know. (0:36:12) Kelly: Stop the children from falling down the mines. (0:36:13) Al: It’s a creature. (0:36:15) Al: Yeah, we do. We don’t want that. (0:36:18) Al: Inventory manage improvements and adjustable day length are the big things that they were highlighting. There’s I mean, the patch notes are much more detailed. I’m not going through them. (0:36:28) Al: There’s a lot of stuff. I’ll link it in the show notes. (0:36:31) Al: Go look at that if you care about it. (0:36:32) Al: Yeah. Yeah. (0:36:32) Kelly: Yeah, this is the one it had a ton of updates last week too or two weeks ago Okay, that makes sense, but it seems like they’re really working to you know update any of these little issues (0:36:37) Al: I think most of it was like bug fixing and stuff. (0:36:39) Al: This is the first kind of like content update, I think. (0:36:42) Al: Content and feature update. (0:36:43) Al: So this is. Yeah, it’s. (0:36:45) Al: Yes. Yes, they are. (0:36:51) Al: This is one of those ones that I probably do want to play at some point, but. (0:36:55) Kelly: It looks really cute, too. It really does. I would like to play this. (0:36:55) Al: It does. It does. (0:36:58) Kelly: I mean, me too. I’m a sucker for collection in general. (0:36:58) Al: It’s also creature collection, and I’m a sucker for creature collection. (0:37:01) Al: Well, yes, that too. That too. (0:37:07) Al: That too. (0:37:08) Al: Yeah. Stardew Valley. (0:37:12) Al: Concerned Ape is continuing to just trickle things out. (0:37:15) Kelly: He’s been just dropping things. Yeah, like he it’s like it’s making me so annoyed because I’m like I don’t want to play stardew. I like I always do I do I’m actively spending my life fighting the urge to play stardew valley [laugh] (0:37:17) Al: I know. (0:37:18) Al: No, you do. You do, though. You do. (0:37:25) Al: You don’t lie. You want to play. (0:37:28) Al: What I love is like some of them are like, “here’s the most tiny little thing like this one, which is just a screenshot of wild horseradish juice.” (0:37:42) Kelly: Yeah. (0:37:42) Al: And my reaction was, “Oh, is that not already in the game? Okay!” (0:37:43) Kelly: I literally when I looked at it I was like oh yeah you can’t do anything with horseradish can you? (0:37:51) Al: So some of them are like this tiny thing where it’s just like, “Oh yeah, the update’s gonna have horseradish juice!” (0:37:58) Al: And then there was the one a few weeks ago which was like, “Here’s just like detailed ten bullet points of what’s coming in the update.” (0:38:04) Al: And you’re like, “Oh, okay!” (0:38:05) Kelly: Yep, listen, I would take every single one of these, I’m like, cool, awesome, great. (0:38:12) Kelly: But yeah, no, I saw this one and I was like, oh, another thing for me to micromanage. (0:38:18) Al: ALICE (KEEPER) Kelly, did you ever play any of the 1.5 update stuff? So that’s Ginger Island and stuff like that. (0:38:24) Kelly: Yes, so I started with actually my first Switch game. (0:38:26) Al: ALICE (KEEPER) I mean, I think it was for a lot of people. (0:38:28) Kelly: Yes, um… (0:38:32) Kelly: But I got my Switch a year later, so I was a year behind everybody. (0:38:33) Al: ALICE It came out nice and early in 2017 and yeah. Fair enough. Yeah. That’s all right, (0:38:39) Kelly: But I played it then, yes, and then I played it two years ago. (0:38:41) Al: so were the updates. (0:38:45) Al: Yeah. (0:38:45) Kelly: Yes, so Ginger Island had come out, which was fun because that wasn’t in my initial playthrough. (0:38:47) Al: Yeah. (0:38:49) Al: Yeah. (0:38:50) Al: I’m not sure. (0:38:51) Kelly: So that was really fun to go out. (0:38:54) Kelly: I feel like that really opened up a whole new part of the game and like extended it nicely. (0:38:57) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:39:06) Al: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, that’s what he’s doing, right? Like, just keep playing this game, please. (0:39:09) Kelly: Yeah. But I mean, he does it in such a good way. Like people would play this game even if he didn’t go out there and release, you know, updates to it. People would be replaying it it constantly anyway yep (0:39:12) Al: Here’s more stuff. I know. (0:39:21) Al: and people would pay for the updates and he just gives them out for free. (0:39:24) Kelly: yep what a good guy yes yes but I mean we might have talked about a game a few minutes ago that might have been doing a different thing no but I fully agree with your point you know it’s like (0:39:26) Al: I mean, he is a millionaire, so you know, like it’s easier to be a good guy when you’re a millionaire. But yes, it is. (0:39:38) Al: Absolutely. No, I don’t. Yep, I don’t. I’m not disagreeing with you. I’m not not trying to take it away from him. You’re absolutely right. (0:39:51) Al: I haven’t played the 1.5 stuff with Ginger Island and stuff like that. So I need to, (0:39:54) Kelly: Oh really? Okay. (0:39:56) Kelly: That might be the best, because especially it seems like he is adding quite a few things, so why not wait? (0:39:57) Al: it’s on my list of like, I really need to do this. So I’m trying to decide maybe I just wait for 1.6 to come out and do it all at the same time. (0:40:06) Al: Yeah, yeah, and I’m going to have to cover that. (0:40:11) Kelly: I will say there is one thing in Ginger Island, there’s like one thing that you really have to like hope for the luck of finding. (0:40:20) Kelly: So that can be a little frustrating, but I think if you kind of… (0:40:24) Kelly: I think the issue is more so when you don’t leave enough stuff to do at home to. (0:40:29) Kelly: And you kind of save Ginger Island for the very end and then you’re like, “Ugh, where is this thing? Come on, show me your…” (0:40:36) Kelly: Like, because it’s like one of those things where you can only collect a few things a day of it. (0:40:39) Kelly: Oh, I always do a new save. (0:40:39) Al: And then I need to make the decision of do I do a new save or do I continue my existing save. (0:40:45) Kelly: I know I should probably go back, but I love a restart. (0:40:49) Kelly: Like, I’ve got like five different room worlds because I just like… (0:40:52) Al: So mostly I have like one that I have done most of the things in, and then I have like a bunch of others that are like random challenges and a random multiplayer one. (0:40:52) Kelly: Could I go back and keep– (0:40:54) Kelly: I’m playing them sure. (0:41:12) Al: See I’m the opposite, I’m like I really should do a new one and see how it changes things because obviously it’s not. You don’t expedite. I need to do both realistically, right? Because it changes things. Exactly. Yeah. (0:41:16) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:41:18) Kelly: It’s like you get to see how you strategize and how you handle things differently and like, you know Going back in with like new knowledge and like all that stuff Like like this this the one I did two years ago, I have notes I take notes when I play this game So I have like field guides I’m like, you know the best things to do with this and each season and what you should pickle and what you should Kagan like blah blah blah like what Fisher what’s Oh Yeah Oh, no, I I love a (0:41:32) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:41:46) Al: Yeah, yeah. Oh, see, I don’t pickle and keg because I just can’t be bothered. I just go, (0:41:54) Al: what is the most expensive crop? Like the most for selling. And I just go with that. (0:41:59) Al: Like, I’m just like, I do like mayo and cheese and stuff like that. But I’m like, I don’t, (0:42:04) Al: I can’t be bothered with like putting my crops and these other things and waiting. No, I just sell. Like, I know you can make more money, but I don’t, I don’t want to do that. (0:42:12) Kelly: I love a good micromanage. It’s not even about the money because I’m a third point I don’t need more money. It’s literally just about me having tasks to do. But yeah, no, I’m like, I… At certain points I was like, okay, so if I place this many kegs in the basement, can I still access them if I walk around this way? (0:42:31) Al: Yes, what’s the optimum strategy? I think the problem is that they figured it out. There is a right answer to that in everything. (0:42:43) Kelly: Yes, which I don’t, I don’t want to sound like I’m one of those people who are doing things to the T perfect, like gotta have every second count. (0:42:54) Kelly: Like I definitely do things in my own little stupid way. (0:42:58) Al: Yeah. Yeah. I also quite like trying different things. So there was one quite early on with the podcast where me and Rachelle were trying to see how much money we could make just from mining. It was good fun. It was good fun. Yeah. Yeah. (0:42:59) Kelly: But there are certain things that I try to make sure I’m doing them correctly, I quote unquote correctly. (0:43:07) Kelly: So that I can get money and stuff from them, especially early game. (0:43:10) Kelly: Once you get to a certain point, it’s like, oh my God, do I need money? (0:43:20) Kelly: that’s a that’s a fun challenge I think those are like fun ways to like how can I do this how can I do this differently oh yeah like I’m a I’m I do this in every like game essentially but I love fishing for So I’m always like a sucker for that, but I feel like (0:43:28) Al: Yeah, exactly. And it’s like, you can actually make a lot of money that way. (0:43:32) Al: And it’s just fun to try the different ways of doing that because (0:43:50) Kelly: My last one I tried to like avoid that more so but It’s always fun to just try different ways do different things (0:43:54) Al: Fair enough. (0:43:56) Al: I also saw someone do a challenge which was like you can’t leave the farm and that was quite interesting. (0:44:06) Al: So they didn’t get a lot of seeds is part of the point, right? (0:44:11) Al: So obviously you get them from foraging, you can get seeds just from foraging. (0:44:15) Al: But yeah, a lot of it was just having to like sell the things you find around the farm. (0:44:21) Al: They used the four carner’s farm. (0:44:22) Kelly: No chickens? (0:44:25) Al: They used the four carner’s farm, so you get a little bit of everything. (0:44:29) Kelly: uh okay okay but like no interactions with people unless they like literally come to visit you that’s crazy but I feel like you know that’s like the it’s like nose locking yourself into stardew it’s fun yeah but stardew yay (0:44:35) Al: Yep. Yeah. (0:44:38) Al: Exactly, exactly, exactly. Lots of different ways to do it. (0:44:47) Al: So yeah, wild horseradish juice. (0:44:49) Al: I will probably never make it. (0:44:52) Kelly: I i will say who is drinking this I love horseradish I love spiciness I love (0:44:53) Al: Yeah. But just pure horseradish juice. (0:44:59) Kelly: bloody marys I love burning my sinuses I would never listen there’s been times in my life where my sinuses have been really bad and somebody was like hey if you put apple cider vinegar up your nose it’ll help and i’ve done that this sounds wild I would never do this I have never heard of horseradish as being described as sweet (0:45:05) Al: No! (0:45:10) Al: It’s description is a sweet nutritious beverage. (0:45:23) Al: I think there’s lots of sugar in that. (0:45:25) Kelly: Yeah, it has to be like really pickled or whatever. (0:45:29) Kelly: That’s crazy. (0:45:33) Al: The final news is we have a new game announced. We don’t have a lot about it. It’s called Echoes of the Plum Grove and it is coming to Kickstarter soon and its little tagline is “Build a thriving community across generations in this cosy historical farm simulation”. (0:45:51) Kelly: I think that’s pretty cute, like that’s a different idea because I feel like you know in a lot of these you can have a kid or something or a family but it doesn’t really go anywhere. (0:45:58) Kelly: Like I feel like this is very much so not how I play The Sims but how a lot of people play The Sims where they’ll make generational things and like the generations start to interact with each other and it’s like really interesting, it’s a very long-term way of doing it. (0:46:08) Al: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. A few games have kind of done a little bit of this, like, I think the new Harvest Moon does it where you can grow. You still stay as your same character, though. (0:46:29) Al: But there was… Oh, what was the… A Wonderful Life did this as well, didn’t it? You can play as your child at a certain point, I think. (0:46:39) Al: So yeah, there is apparently a lot more information on Steam that I didn’t notice until now. (0:46:43) Kelly: I did have to go open the Steam page because the Kickstarter basically had nothing on it. (0:46:44) Al: I will link that in the show notes. (0:46:47) Al: Yes, well, that’s the thing, that’s why I didn’t think we had a huge amount, but it is apparently on Steam. (0:46:53) Al: Well, the page is up on Steam, and it says it’s coming out in 2024, but I suspect (0:46:59) Kelly: I would also. I like his little cute like

Join us for a fascinating discussion as we unpack Amazon unBoxed 2023, exploring the most exciting releases such as generative AI and more that can level up your advertising game. Our co-host from Pacvue, Anne Harrell provides us with a unique perspective on the advertising industry. Let's start with our chat with Jeff Cohen, Principal Evangelist, Advertising API at Amazon, as he shares his transition journey and the biggest differences he's noticed. Listen in as we dive into the role of ad tech in digital transformation and its implications for brands. We examine Amazon Ads' new offerings like generative AI and sponsored TV, which promise to revolutionize brand imagery and audience engagement. Get the inside scoop on Amazon PPC and new-to-brand metrics that could redefine your brand's success measurement. We also explore Amazon Publisher Cloud, a game-changing technology for publishers that promises unique and differentiated opportunities for advertisers. Get to know Miranda Chen, the director of growth and modernization for Amazon Marketing Cloud, as she walks us through its potential. Learn how lookalike audiences can help your brand reach new customers and how templatized analytics can make AMC more accessible. We also examine Amazon Marketing Stream and Rapid Retail Analytics, which provide valuable data on retail signals. Discover how sponsored products can appear on platforms like Pinterest and the features that make Amazon's new Sponsored TV offering a game-changer. All this and more, right here on our podcast!   In episode 504 of the Serious Sellers Podcast, Bradley, Anne, and our special guests discuss: 00:00 - Amazon unBoxed 2023 04:31 - Insights on Amazon and Advertising Growth 08:29 - Sponsored TV and Ad Tech Announcements 12:29 - Embracing Change in Amazon Advertising 20:40 - Amazon Advertising Full Funnel Solutions 23:39 - Benefits and Capabilities of Demandside Platforms 28:25 - Lookalike Audiences for Reaching New Customers 34:59 - Amazon Marketing and Rapid Retail Analytics 41:15 - Amazon's Sponsored TV Announcement ► Instagram: instagram.com/serioussellerspodcast ► Free Amazon Seller Chrome Extension: https://h10.me/extension ► Sign Up For Helium 10: https://h10.me/signup (Use SSP10 To Save 10% For Life) ► Learn How To Sell on Amazon: https://h10.me/ft ► Watch The Podcasts On YouTube: youtube.com/@Helium10/video Transcript Bradley Sutton: Today we've got a special episode here at Amazon Unbox 2023 where we're going to talk about all of their releases, like generative AI and sponsored brand hats, and also a lot of cool things like sponsored TV. How cool is that? Pretty cool, I think. If you're like me, maybe you were intimidated about learning how to do Amazon PPC, or maybe you think you just don't have the hours and hours that it takes to download and sort through all of those sponsored ads reports that Amazon produces for you. Adtomic for me allowed me to learn PPC for the first time, and now I'm managing over 150 PPC campaigns across all of my accounts in only two hours a week. Find out how Adtomic can help you level up your PPC game. Visit h10/adtomic for more information. That's h10.me/adtomic. Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Serious Sellers Podcast by Helium 10 I'm your host, Bradley Sutton, and this is the show that's completely BS free, unscripted and unrehearsed organic conversation about serious strategies for serious sellers of any level in the e-commerce world. We're here at Amazon Unboxed in New York. I've been on the road for like three weeks and there's a second there where I wasn't quite sure where. I was. I've been in so many countries lately, but we've got a co-host today and from Pacvue, and how's it going? Anne: Great. How are you doing? Bradley Sutton: I'm just delightful. Now, what is your background? What do you do at Pacvue? Anne: Yeah, so I'm a product solutions director for DSP at Pacvue, so I do basically anything related to DSP and AMC help with our product road mapping, help with strategy for some of our enterprise level clients doing customer within AMC marketing you name it, I probably do it. Bradley Sutton: How long have you been at Pacvue? Anne: I've been at Pacvue for coming up on four years now, so about three and a half years total. A lot has changed since I joined. I started at Pacvue focusing on our managed services team, so I was primarily working with some of our strategic accounts, helping to build out their capabilities, doing strategy not just for DSP but across kind of omni-channel focuses, so for search as well. Prior to working at Pacvue, I actually worked in an agency in Austin, Texas, where I'm normally based, where I again did omni-channel strategy for enterprise level accounts. So my background is not just with programmatic and DSP, but I really gravitated to it. It's just one of those types of advertising channels that really allows you to have a lot of flexibility and creativity and really is conducive to innovation. So I really enjoy working on the DSP side of things. Bradley Sutton: Cool. Now what did you go to school for? Anne: I went to school for advertising, so I think I'm in the right place. Bradley Sutton: Okay, so you're right. Where did you go to school at? Anne: It's called St Edward's University. It's in Austin, Texas. So I've been in Austin since I went to school and I just never left about a decade. Bradley Sutton: Okay, I was about to say, because you don't sound like you were born and raised in Austin. Anne: I was not Okay. Bradley Sutton: What were you born and raised? Anne: Well, where I was born was Hattiesburg, Mississippi, but raised is a harder question. I moved about 10 times before I graduated high school. So you pick a state, I probably was raised there. Bradley Sutton: Okay, cool, yeah, because I was like wait a minute, she doesn't sound like a native Texan here. Anne: I know no accent yet. Bradley Sutton: All right, maybe 15, 20 years from now you might have a little twang in here. Anne: Right, right, I actually have a little bit of a Southern accent, I think I kind of got rid of it as I moved around. Bradley Sutton: Okay, cool. Now what are you? We're going to be talking to some people that probably people have never heard of podcasts, right? You know there are exactly executives here at Amazon who are you most excited to talk to today. Anne: If I were to have to say, my favorite subject matter is definitely the DSP AMC side of things, and I know that we're speaking to Kelly, who's the VP of DSP, so that's obviously a great place to start. We're also going to speak to Miranda, who is a director for AMC at Amazon, so I think there's going to be a lot of really great content around that. But in general, we're also talking to a lot of people who are very broadly focused across all of ads, and so I think we'll have something for everyone in this one. Bradley Sutton: Yeah, so you guys might be. There might be some newbies out there, don't tune out. This is stuff that you're going to need to know If you're an advanced seller. We're going to talk about some stuff that you guys might be able to use right away. That was just announced this week at Amazon Unbox, so let's go ahead and hop right into the interviews, all right. First up, we've got my brother from another mother here, jeff Cohen. Jeff, how's it going? Jeff: Everything is great. So great to see you, so great to see the whole Helium 10 Pack View team at this conference. It's great to catch up with everybody. Bradley Sutton: Yeah, Now you've been in the game longer than me. I remember the very first conference I spoke at. You were a speaker and you were already a veteran speaker at that time. You know side note that that conference there probably had the best food I've ever had at the conference. This is probably the second best Like. Jeff: I'm really impressed with the offerings here. Yeah, I'm curious what conference that is, but we don't have to go into that now. Bradley Sutton: But it was right here in New York. But you were on the SaaS side. You know, like I am now. Now you're at Amazon, like what's been the biggest you know kind of eye-opening thing or difference, now that you're on the other side of the aisle. Jeff: Yeah, interesting because I always like to joke that you know I drink the Amazon Kool-Aid before I ever like came here. I've been an Amazon like fanboy since like 2005 when I started textbookscom and it's been interesting because I'm in a unique position where I can bring the outside in and the inside out, and I think that you know, one of the many things that I've learned is maybe like the patience that you have to have with Amazon Maybe I didn't have as much patience when I was on the outside and the amount of time that it takes for some of the things to develop at Amazon. But when they like grow and they go to scale, it then moves at like this rocket ship pace. And so I think you're starting to see that with some of the tools, like AMC or even like you know what's happening with, like Amazon Studios and some of the new, you know productions that are coming out, you have this like rocket ship pace of what's happening in terms of the development and the new opportunities and how advertisers are using the technology, and so you have to kind of be patient when new things come out. So when you have a totally new product like Sponsored TV, you got to realize that it takes a little bit of time to kind of figure out how does it work into the individual advertisers media mix, and so that's the measurement work for each brand along the way. But then once it kind of gets up to full speed, you get to see like how it all works and you know and how it's really excelling brand growth. Bradley Sutton: Yeah, now we're going to be interviewing a lot of your colleagues here about some very specific announcements that happened here at Unboxed and before I ask you to give a rundown, you know, one of the things that was announced today it's on the website too is about the new generative AI that can help people doing Sponsored Brand Ads to generate some new creatives. Can you talk about that just a little bit? Jeff: Yeah, I think there were like three themes to the keynote today that I kind of jotted down. One was this idea of, like digital transformation and one was this idea of like how ad tech plays in in a responsible way. And then the third one was like how we reinvent, right, how we have reinvent what's possible. That was said numerous times, and I think Gen AI kind of fits into almost all three of those categories. And you know, we saw a lot of opportunity, a lot of new changes with Gen AI that have come out of AWS. We saw a lot of changes with Gen AI that came out of Amazon Accelerate, and now we're starting to see some come out of Amazon ads and I'll you know it's cool, right, we can take a product and we can turn that product into a full lifestyle image. And I think it's if you can just start to kind of think about where the possibilities go from there and what else brands can do and how we can enable that, either with what Amazon ads is doing or with what our partners are doing right, because it doesn't always have to be invented by us at Amazon it's really making it easier for brands to be able to take advantage of this technology that maybe was a little expensive or time consuming or difficult to use, and now it's all done with prompts and it's really simple and easy and that's really cool yeah. Bradley Sutton: Now, what about some of the other announcements? Say you have any. You know things that stick out that you're especially excited for. Jeff: Yeah, I think that what we're doing I mentioned it during our opening segment but Sponsored TV, I think is a really cool one and you know, in short, it's democratizing the ability for brands to be able to place ads into our streaming portfolio right so across Prime Video, free V and all the other channels that we have that I can't even remember them all because I'm supposed to think so quickly and I think that's really cool. And again, like there's no budget for that, you do have to have the creative, but Amazon has services that can help you make that creative or there's third parties that can help you make that creative. And I thought that was a really exciting announcement that was made, you know, on the heels of the announcement that was made a month ago. It was kind of reinforced about like what's happening with Prime Video and it moving to an ad supported network, creating a ton of, you know, new inventory for brands to begin to explore, and that's really super exciting as we start to go into it. And then there was like a bunch around ad tech and like what's happening around measurement and I know, like from you know, we're all near and dear to this idea that measurement is critical to our overall success and new metrics that are being released, making it available to understand how new to brand customers are impacting the business, and I think those are all really important for us to be thinking about because we have to close the loop. As advertisers and as we move to this cookie-less world right, it's signs point to it happening in 2024, we have to find ways to be able to close the funnel and understand how our ads are working, and Amazon's working really hard to help brands be able to do that, both within our suite and also when you're outside of our suite. Anne: Yeah, you mentioned the new. New to brand metrics, new to brand consideration metrics, I think is what we're calling them. Can you walk our listeners through what those really are? Jeff: Well, when you're looking at new to brand, right from like a super high level, new to brand is starting to give you this metric that's beyond ROAS, and it's starting to allow brands to look at who was not buying their brand within the last 12 months. Who's now buying their brand, and there's a suite of metrics now that are available for you to be looking at so that, as you're looking at different inflection points of your advertising, you can start to actually dial down into what action you're looking for people to take. And I think that's what's really cool. And it's like this evolution and brands have to think through this evolution like one of the simplest ways to think of this, right for people who maybe, like this concept's a little far for them. One of the simplest ways to think of this is around this idea that, like, if you're trying to get more awareness of your product, when you're looking at a video, you don't want to just see video views, you want to see how long they've been watching the video, and so you might start optimizing your campaign based on video length, how many people get to a half the video or three quarters of the video. And so, when you start to get into the new to brand type of metrics, you're actually saying, okay, I want incremental growth and by definition is, you know, sales you wouldn't have had before. One of the best ways to measure that is by people who are new to your brand, and so by having multiple metrics now to be able to understand how those are being impacted, you can now go back into tools like AMC and see how that funnel is working and which ones are driving the actual you know points that you want to drive and that that's really cool, right, it's, it's very excited about. Anne: I'm very excited too, yeah. Bradley Sutton: Awesome, all right. Last question for you know maybe not something that was released here at Unbox, but you know you're very active on LinkedIn. You see what people are posting about. You know I'm sure you look at metrics about what advertisers are using. Is there something in Amazon advertising that you feel is is kind of being slept on or not enough people are talking about it, that you think more people should be using it? Jeff: I mean more people should be using Helium 10 and Pacvue. Bradley Sutton: That goes without saying. Jeff: Okay, besides that, I think that you know, bradley, you and I get asked this question a lot, right? And? And our answer is always it depends. And I think that, instead of like saying, like this is a tool that you should be using or this is a a, an advertising function, you should be trying, I think that advertisers need to be open to the idea of test and learn, and I think the more you can train your mental model to work in a test and learn type of environment, the more open you are to change, because the only thing that's constant is going to be change. Right, and you started by saying like, where this industry was years ago when we both started, think about all the change that's happened and all the change that's occurred, and the brands that have not just survived but thrived through that are brands that have taken advantage of new opportunities, have invested by testing and learning and have then double down on the things that we're working. And I don't mean to oversimplify it, right, but it's not a very specific answer of like, use helium tens tool for keyword, blah, blah, blah, but it's like that's just one piece that you then use to implement the strategy. So work backwards. What's your goal. How are you gonna get there? And then figure out what tools you need to help you scale. Bradley Sutton: Awesome. All right, well, jeff. Thank you so much for joining us. We've been trying to get you on the podcast for like two years. I'm happy it finally happened and we'll definitely be keeping in touch. Appreciate it. Thanks, guys. All right, next up, we've got Kelly here. Now, Kelly, can you go ahead and introduce yourself? Tell us what you do at Amazon. Kelly: Absolutely so, Kelly McClain. I lead our demand side platform at Amazon, so we call it ADSP, and excited to be here. Bradley Sutton: Thank you for the time. Awesome, Awesome. Now you were, you know. Just saw you on stage a few minutes ago. What were your big reveals of the day? Kelly: Yeah, really good question. So I think if, if you think about Amazon ads and kind of where we've, where we've been and where we're going, we've really continued to make a lot of progress on on how, what we've been building a lot of our goals. We're focused a lot on interoperability with our ad tech solutions, so making it easier to use. We're focused a lot on performance improvements and then again, all of this is underpinned by making sure that we're putting privacy at the core of everything that we're doing, and so, with that in mind, we've been kind of launching this week in particular, a lot of different updates around, as you think about planning, activating and measuring, right. So within planning, we were launching Cross Channel Planner, which is a new way for you to really think about full, full funnel planning. We announced Amazon Publisher Cloud, which is the new clean room technology for publishers, which we're really excited about. We've been making a lot of performance improvements to the demand side platform, both with the user interface as well as the backend performance, and then we've also been been launching a lot more on our measurement capabilities, right, so making sure that marketers are getting the insights real time, making it a lot easier for them to kind of understand. You know how they should be looking at performance and where they should be making future investments. So we're excited about it. It's going to be a really fun week. Bradley Sutton: Awesome, awesome. We have our resident DSP nerd here, Ann, so she's going to go ahead and ask have some follow up. Anne: Definitely. Amazon Publisher Cloud was announced today, which is a big step for your publishing partners, obviously. Do you see any benefit for advertisers with this release? Kelly: Yes, definitely, and you know, I think to your point. I mean we've had, if you think about kind of clean room technology, right, really starting with cloud solutions. Then Amazon marketers cloud right thinking for marketers on how we can help support them. And Amazon publisher cloud it's going to be a mouthful after I'm speaking all morning. So excuse me, but you know that's really about a solution for publishers, right, giving them much more of the ability to pair any unique insights that they have right Demographics that they might know, of course, with folks who are coming to their site and then pairing that with Amazon Ads data. But the real core of that is, of course, providing opportunities for publishers but making it easier for them to connect with advertisers, right, advertisers. Often that you know there's so many different deal opportunities out there. A lot of the kind of deal process is very manual today and it's hard to discover the right deal and knowing which deal is right for you to reach your audience and so you know. A simple example, right is, if you're, let's say, you're a common website and you know the different demographics that are coming to your site every day, but by layering on Amazon audiences, you might realize, oh, I actually have pet food lovers who or sorry, pet food lovers- I have pet lovers who are coming to my site that I didn't realize, and so then that offers publishers the ability to maybe customize some unique deal opportunities to advertisers who might be trying to target pet lovers right, or specific brands who might be selling pet food, and it provides much more unique, differentiated opportunities, and we actually had a recent test with NBC Universal and they were able to offer three and a half times more reach than what they'd seen in the past, which is really exciting. So we see this as beneficial to both marketers and to publishers by really making it a lot more simple to connect with audiences. Bradley Sutton: At the end of the day, you know, pet food lovers are pets in about 10 years at Unbox. I predict like there's going to be some DSP where pets can actually base, you know, based on what they see on TV. Anne: They've already made more of the food, Exactly exactly, so we just launched something. Kelly: And if that's possible, maybe pets will be transformed into some sort of language that they can then activate. Anne: I think so, I think so. I don't even want to think about that. Kelly: I know, I never really thought about that? Anne: Yeah, that's very exciting. So, essentially for the advertisers listening, it's going to make your reach potentially broader but also more relevant, right? So the publishers have the ability to make targeting more relevant Absolutely Great. Another big announcement was the cross-channel planner. Yes, so can you walk us through how you think the ability to forecast reach will change how advertisers perform through their DSP program? Yeah, absolutely. Kelly: I mean, I think one of the biggest challenges today, as you all know right, is the fragmentation of channels and information and the overload of signals, right, and so that's where we're excited with Cross Channel Planner providing more of the ability to help marketers understand who they should be reaching right across the funnel and get much more information on how to kind of more efficiently drive their spend. In the past, we've launched Channel Planner, so that was our first product for mostly catered towards streaming TV, right, and how do you think about reach curves and how do you make sure that you're delivering against that for upfront pitches and so forth, and this is really kind of the next iteration to driving more efficient spend. So, ultimately, we think this is going to be kind of the next step of just providing much more granularity across all of the Amazon ads products on Amazon beyond Amazon, to make it easier to figure out. Okay, where should I be allocating my budget in the best way possible? We had a baby brand who actually was reaching audiences and they activated. So they leveraged Cross Channel Planner, activated via the DSP, and then they used custom advertising to direct customers to their online store and actually had four and a half times click through rate and 11% increase in impurchase rate, which was pretty cool to see. So again, I think the ability to plan and then easily activate is something that we're really committed to and excited about. Anne: Do you think this will be applicable for advertisers who are advertising both on Amazon and off, so more so that third party placement this will help plan for that as well. Absolutely. Kelly: So Amazon is known for retail media and driving conversions in the Amazon store, and we've been making so many investments over the past several years to really drive much more full funnel solutions and making all of our solutions work for all types of advertisers whether you're an advertiser that sells on Amazon or not because we're really excited about the power of again combining Amazon signals with marketers, third party and third party signals in a way that you can actually drive conversions, drive reach and have more of a full funnel experience and conversation. And that's where our Amazon publisher direct team comes into play, where we have a lot of these relationships and can reach anyone across the internet. But we've also been investing in modeled audiences and the performance through the DSP, and so a lot of people are kind of thinking about the loss of cookies in a negative way. We actually see this as an opportunity. We see this as a way to really innovate and rethink how marketers can potentially reach people in a privacy, safe way. That also drives performance, and so this is why we've also been investing in our modeled audience solutions right so, especially as we think about driving sales or reach off of Amazon, and we've been seeing over 25% increase delivery with a lot of the solutions, as well as 12% less cost per click per impression, which I'm barely able to talk. I'm going to lose my voice by the end of this day. But so, yeah, I think all of these from again, the planning, how you can activate all of the performance improvements we've been doing within our DSP we're excited. We'll continue to help accelerate marketers across full funnel wherever they want to reach people, which we're thrilled about. Anne: Definitely the ever looming third party cookie deprecation. Yes, exactly. Kelly: Yeah, a lot of energy, but understandably, and I think it's the right thing for us to rethink how we can really connect marketers and people in the right way, moving forward. Anne: Agreed, agreed. Another thing that was mentioned was the bidding enhancements that are now going to be available through the DSP program. So, essentially, you pick a KPI and you let Amazon do all the bid optimization in order to get to that KPI. Do you think this is going to change costs for advertisers, like, will CPMs go down in highly competitive categories or go up because of this automation? Kelly: Good question and, being a DSP enthusiast, I'm sure you know that our system has been really hard to use in the past. We've heard feedback from customers and partners that it was very complex, and so we've really been. So this goal seeking bidder, as well as re-augmenting our interface so that it's much more anchored on goals, has been paramount. We want to make it easier to use the DSP. We want to understand what is your goal, what are you trying to do? What outcome are you trying to drive for your business? And we've been making a lot of user interface improvements. And then the goal seeking bidder, on the back end to your point, I'm not sure what it will do in terms of you know, I can't talk to overall pricing in the system, right, but what I can say is that we're already seeing, you know, up to 40% reduction in CPAs, where we're able to better optimize against a goal, and we're seeing marketers just really gravitate towards the ability to kind of have much more of a simple experience. But we also believe in control, and so I think that's one of the powers that we think the Demand side platform has is, if you want all of the customization, if you want the complexity, we have that right. You can really adjust whatever types of bids that you want. You can layer on various different types of audiences. You can play around with different creatives. You can, you know, make a ton of different ads to try and test and at the same time, if you want a more simple, easy experience, you know what your goal is. We're able to help optimize and provide recommendations on the best way to do that. So we see it as kind of a nice balance in providing marketers kind of that wide range of capabilities, because we think there's a lot of different discussions in the industry right now on what way folks are going to be going. Bradley Sutton: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time and thank you for all you do at Amazon. We appreciate it. Kelly: Thank you for the partnership. Appreciate it, of course. Bradley Sutton: Thanks, thank you All right Now we've got Miranda. Miranda, this is our first time meeting you, so can you introduce yourself and tell us what your position is at Amazon? Miranda: Absolutely. I'm Miranda Chen. I'm the director of growth and modernization for Amazon Marketing Cloud, or AMC for short. I've been at Amazon for 11 and a half years now, live in the Bay Area and at AMC I lead several teams responsible for product and engineering, developing our audience activation capabilities, making AMC easier to use for more and more customers, as well as our go to market and customer enablement activities. Bradley Sutton: All right Now. We have a wide variety of listeners, anywhere from brand new people selling on Amazon to humongous billion dollar brands. Now, the billion dollar brands probably know all about AMC, but some of our newer ones might not understand that. Maybe there can feel like wait, marketing, stream, marketing, AMC, there's all these acronyms. So can you just give a quick, maybe 30 second, one minute introduction about what is AMC? Miranda: Yeah for sure. So Amazon Marketing Cloud, or AMC, is Amazon ads as clean room, so it's private and secure by design. Each advertiser has their own campaign signals of all their various Amazon ad spend within their particular instance. So we have signals from sponsored products, sponsored brands, streaming TV effectively like all of the actual campaign events and enables custom flexible analytics on those signals. And then it also enables advertisers to be able to upload their own first party signals or third party signals so you can think of, like product catalog, retail conversions, things like that, and so then you can generate really really flexible insights, typically using SQL, such as path to conversion, reach and frequency, overlap analysis and then actually take actions on them. Bradley Sutton: Cool, so most of our listeners probably weren't able to attend here at Unbox. What's the big release for your department here at Unbox? Miranda: Yeah, so we had a couple different releases specifically related to AMC that I can touch on. The first was AMC template analytics. So it takes some of our most popular queries, such as path to conversion, reach and frequency, and then allows users to be able to generate those insights without needing to touch any codes. So that's a pretty exciting development, particularly since we know that not everybody no SQL has taught themselves SQL overnight. And then the second one was AMC lookalike audiences. So we already have the capability where one can generate a custom audience based on specific parameters. So let's just say, an advertiser saw, wanted to create an audience of folks that had seen their detail page view or even added to cart but didn't actually activate and then wanted to drive better performance. They could create a particular, they could run a query, generate that insight and push that directly to the DSP. So that's one way. That's AMC rule based audiences. And then now we launched this enhanced capability for lookalike audiences. So it enables effectively exactly what it sounds like. So finding alike audiences based on that same seed, leveraging machine learning in a clean room capacity trained on Amazon, shopper and customer signals, but all still in a private and secure place. Bradley Sutton: All right, you're already starting talking technical terms that are over my head, so let me bring in the smart one of us. And to clean rooms. My room's not clean, I don't know. That's not what we're talking about here, but go ahead and please follow up and make me sound smart here. Anne: Yeah, of course. So I'd like to talk about lookalike audiences more specifically, because this is a way for brands to reach highly relevant, essentially new customers. So do you think this will change the way people are targeting that new to brand customer targeting incrementality? Miranda: Yeah, I mean we think it's going to be a great way for brands to be able to reach more and more shoppers. So, as I mentioned, the lookalike audiences are trained on based on deep, deep ML, based on lots of very, very, very good signals, and then the advertiser can actually leverage, can get to choose what's their specific seed for the audience, like what's the general size of the audience, based on their objective and then also the relevance. So I think it'll be a really key tool as a part of the marketer toolkit. Anne: Yeah, definitely. Do you think lookalike audiences are scalable for brands that maybe have lower purchase data or lower engagement data that are using AMC? Miranda: I think so. I think they're precisely like the brands that actually could benefit from it, right Because they have a small bit of deterministic signals that they actually want to be able to enhance. And then also because AMC is private and secure by design, as I mentioned, they can also choose to upload their own first party or third party signals and then create a seed based on that and then continue to go find additional customers that seem similar to that seed. Anne: Right, I love that you call it a seed, because it sounds like it will grow over time if you're utilizing these tactics, so that's a great way to phrase it. Miranda: Thanks, it didn't come up with it. Anne: Well, we'll give you credit anyways. So you talked about the AMC templatized analytics, right? Is this a way to make AMC more accessible and, if so, are the queries that are available through those templatized analytics? Will it grow over time? What's available through that? Miranda: Yeah, so we think it's a first step towards making AMC easier for more and more customers. So we don't have a specific timeline yet on additional templates, but it is something we'll be continuing to evaluate. We have been talking to different customers and internal teams about how we can also make AMC easier to use through point and click applications as well. We also work with dozens of partners that are making AMC easier to use, either through visualizations or through their own innovative dashboard. So I think through the combination of either homegrown or partner built capabilities, we'll be able to continue to bring AMC insights to more and more customers. Anne: Yeah, pacview is one of those partners. We do have an AMC dashboard Great, I think. Another question that's kind of just in general about AMC do you think there are any verticals or categories that benefit the most from this data, or that you've seen a lot of growth and success with using AMC? Miranda: Yeah, we think of AMC as equal opportunities. So we look at the data a lot. We're very, very data driven surprise, surprise at Amazon and what we've seen is that there's penetration for AMC across brands and partners and agencies as well as across all verticals. So we've seen, certainly, strength from brands that sell on the Amazon store, but also pretty strong results with entertainment, with automotive, financial services. So you can think of someone who's like automotive who might have a bunch of local dealerships. They want to be able to do more fine event grained analyses based on specific geos, and so something like AMC is perfect for that be able to do more precise measurements. So, yeah, certainly we think it's a great product for all, but it really depends on that particular advertiser's objective and then what are the types of signals that they want to bring in and what kind of insights they can generate. Anne: Definitely, it is flexible. Miranda: Exactly Infinite and flexible. Yes, Great. Anne: My last question is just a kind of a fun one. Do you have any specific query or an example of a query that you think was really innovative that's been pulled through AMC that you can recall? Miranda: I think it's probably a generic answer, but I think the Path to Conversion one is probably one of my favorites, just because it's the simplest. I think AMC was actually the first place where an advertiser could see all of their signals across all of the Amazon ad products, and so someone who was buying sponsored products and DSP might not have realized before that they actually were driving better results together, and so Path to Conversion, and actually be able to understand how those two products were interacting, for example, really brought a lot more power and insight, I think, to advertisers. Anne: So I don't think that's generic at all. I love that one too. Miranda: There's a reason. That's core kind of at the top of the instructional query library. Anne: Right. Miranda: Agreed, all right. Bradley Sutton: I have another question for you. I like asking stuff that maybe nobody else is going to ask. When you want to take off your Amazon hat and kick back with a hobby to kind of like balance work life, what's your go-to hobby? Miranda: Well, I have an almost four-year-old so she is probably my hobby in most of the time. I'm going to try and go do fun things on the weekend, whether it's exploring new coffee shops or going to find music. Bradley Sutton: The four-year-old is a coffee drinker, is she? Miranda: No, she's not, but she's an avid consumer of chocolate croissants, and so we sample baked goods in lots of different places. Then mom gets her coffee. I think that's probably it, but in my prior pre-kid years I did a lot more yoga and hiking and things like that. Bradley Sutton: So enjoy those years. You know, my kids are over 20 already, so I wish I had a four-year-old. I remember those days All right. Thank you so much for joining us and you educated me a lot. It sounds like Ann knows all about what you're talking about. It was like a different language to me, so I appreciate you educating us on IMC. Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much. Miranda: Thank you so much. Bradley Sutton: Alright, we've got Teresa here. Teresa, could you go ahead and introduce yourself? Teresa: Sure, I'm Teresa Uthralton. I'm the Director of Partner Development here at Amazon Ads. Bradley Sutton: Awesome, awesome. How long have you been here at Amazon? Teresa: I've been at Amazon for almost 10 years, so I'm approaching that red badge. For those of you that know our badging conventions, Nice, nice. Bradley Sutton: Now you're from here in New York. I've always been in New York, yep. So I'm going to start off with maybe the most important question of the day Julianne's Pizza in Brooklyn. Is that the best representation of New York pizza, or not? Teresa: Oh, that's tough. There's so many really good pizza places now I can't even keep up with them. There's so many. Bradley Sutton: Alright. Well, we're going to have to connect right after this, because I have two days left and I need to maximize my time here. Teresa: Yes, Alright now. Bradley Sutton: We're not here to talk about food here. Teresa: I recommend checking out Roberta's in Bushwick though. Bradley Sutton: Roberta's in Bushwick. I have not been there. Anne: Yes, I think you'll really enjoy that. Bradley Sutton: We're going to that one. Anne: Right now. Yeah, actually, cancel the interview. Let's go there, we go. Yes, of course. Bradley Sutton: Now Anne here is going to ask a lot of the more technical questions, especially those that have to do with enterprise. Now I'm here to represent, kind of like, the voice of the average Amazon seller, and you know, there's some people out there who might not fully know what Amazon marketing stream is first of all. So could you just go ahead and just kind of give a quick elevator pitch for what that is? Teresa: Sure. So Amazon marketing stream is a partner-facing product, and what it does is it provides really granular hourly signals on all our advertising metrics through the Amazon API, and what that means to a seller is that they will be able to get all sorts of insights about their business that normally they would not have known. Bradley Sutton: Okay, all right, I love that. Did you practice this? I didn't even tell you I was going to ask that. All right, cool, cool. How about rapid retail analytics, your other specialty? Teresa: I know I love rapid retail analytics, so Amazon marketing stream obviously totally focused on advertising signals. As we know, so much of what's exciting about Amazon ads is that you got online retail and digital advertising Right, and so rapid retail analytics provides that level of granularity on retail signals, and one of the reasons that's so exciting is that that data used to be available at a daily cadence with a 72-hour lag, so we literally it's almost near real time now, which is a really, really exciting development. Bradley Sutton: Okay, all right. Well, now that I got that out of the way, let me turn it over to the smart one of us too, and for some follow up questions. Anne: Yeah, so I kind of want to double click into Amazon marketing stream, specifically the fact that it was recently released for DSP or it's being extended to DSP. How do you think this will change the way advertisers manage their DSP campaigns now that they have that real time data that we were talking about? Teresa: Well, it's interesting. I think one of the things that I've learned is I've been humbled by our partner's creativity. Right, you know, I was just. I was just telling someone. I joined this team three weeks before Can last year and so I showed up at Can meeting all my partners for the first time, and we had just launched the first version of Amazon marketing stream and I was like this is the coolest product. But what really got me excited was it's a product that we developed based on the feedback we got from partners Like they, they have a seat at the table, they participate in all our betas and our product teams love them, right, because they get like this incredible, you know, they get their hands dirty and they come back and they're like these are the 27 things that are wrong and you need to fix right, which is if you're a product team, that's actually like really helpful, right, so, and what? The thing that's so interesting is like it launched and everyone loved it, but then people are like well, but it only has sponsored products. Right, like, I want more, I want more, I might want more. So I think what's exciting about having ADSP signals in there is that's going to unlock a whole bunch of opportunity around partners that are deep on ADSP Right. Definitely and I think you know, probably a few months from now, we'll have some really interesting case studies, success stories. There's really like almost no end to the creativity of our partners, which is really great because they're such awesome builders. Anne: I agree. I'm curious AMC they not AMS? AMC? I know they get our accurate, our Amazon accurate. I know, there's so many of them Also provides hour by hour data for both DSP and for sponsored ads. Prior to this, especially prior to AMC, but also prior to AMS, this wasn't available for advertisers, so you kind of had to guess when you were running, like day parting or anything along those lines. Do you think the release of the stream data for DSP will eliminate the need for the AMC hourly data? Teresa: Well, I think you got to go back to like what are the use cases that people use other product, right? I think, like what is great about Amazon marketing stream? Right, it's an aggregate, aggregate data pipe, if you think about it, right, and so ultimately that's going to help people build solutions that are evergreen. It's going to help people train AI models right, because how do you train AI models? You need, like, lots of granular signals, right? And whereas the Amazon marketing stream is really about very specific use cases around, like understanding the customer purchase path, understanding incrementality, understanding attribution, so I don't think it's like one or the other, I think it's very like use case specific. Anne: Right. That actually leads perfectly into my next question, which is how you see these two datasets working together with advertisers currently, or how you see in the future that they can work together. Teresa: Yeah. So I think, like what I think is really exciting about partner innovation is, ultimately, I don't think there's ever been a better time to be a marketer, right, like there's that whole age old question about, like I know half my advertising is working, but I don't know which half, and I think we're getting about as close as we're going to get probably in our lifetime, but we're on the cusp of that with a lot of these tools, and so I think the the part about Amazon marketing stream that I think is so exciting is that it will allow the kind of automation that makes brands so much smarter and helps them do more with less. Right, and we're seeing like especially like this year has been an uncertain economic climate for a lot of folks, right, and a lot of a lot of folks are trying to figure out like my budget has been cut or my budget is capped, but I'm being asked to drive more growth Right, and I think, like partners have been able to deliver solutions based on Amazon marketing stream and rapid retail analytics that have really enabled that Awesome. Bradley Sutton: And you had a last question. Anne: I did. It's a fun one. What's your favorite thing about being at conferences like unboxed? Teresa: Oh, it's meeting my partners. You know, I learn so much from from meeting with partners, right, like I said, it's very humbling. The innovation, the creativity, what they teach us about our customers, what they teach us about our products and it's such an incredible learning experience is so energizing. Were you at our our cocktail party last night? Anne: No. Bradley Sutton: I was not. Anne: We had a lot of cocktail parties. I'm sure it was very. Teresa: That was like such a fun buzzing party and I got to meet partners from all over the world. At our award ceremony on Monday we met partners that came from Delhi and it was just really, really exciting. Bradley Sutton: Awesome, all right, well, thank you so much for coming on the show and we appreciate all that you do at Amazon. Teresa: Thank you, thanks guys. Bradley Sutton: All right, we've got Ruslana here. Ruslana, welcome to the show. Ruslana: Thank you, Bradley and Anne, for having me. Bradley Sutton: Are you based here in? Ruslana: New York no, I'm based in Seattle. Bradley Sutton: Seattle. Okay, Seattle was just there for accelerate, lots of rain, but I like. I like Seattle weather a lot. Quick question for you, first of all just how long have you been at Amazon and what is your title there? Ruslana: I'm a vice president of sponsored brands display in TV advertising and I just celebrated my 10 year anniversary Last week awesome, congrats, congrats. Bradley Sutton: now we're gonna go into like what you announced today, but you know something while you were on stage, you also referred to something that was, you know, launched a little bit ago. We're how, now you know, sponsored products can show up on websites like Pinterest and things like that, and one thing that was I have a bad memory, but it was new to me, maybe I knew about it, I guess, didn't know was like it's not just a product that's gonna display, but it'll also show, I believe, like the reviews count and even the shipping time did I, did I hear that right. Ruslana: Well, with sponsor products, our goal is to deliver the same value that Advertisers are getting today by having sponsored products was an Amazon store and some of the critical sort of trusted Amazon attributes, such as reviews, pricing information, as well as Prime delivery promise, are essential elements To helping customers make decisions and actually purchase. So yes you are, you got it right at that. Sponsor products will be containing Kind of product level or Amazon key, amazon trusted information Within these new and exclusive placements across some of these sides to help our advertisers to really go quickly and with ease from discovering something or exploring something to actually purchasing awesome, awesome. Bradley Sutton: That's been. That's been out for a while, but today, when you're on stage, you announce something brand new, and that was sponsored TV. So just give us maybe a quick 30 second, one minute overview of what that is, and Anne has some follow-up questions on that. Ruslana: Well, we see a sponsored TV, tv advertising as a whole, as a critical element of brand-building strategy. That should not be something that Brand cannot do. Any brand of any science should be able to tap into this opportunity and reach these engaged audiences on a big screen In the living room, and so sponsored TV is aiming to accomplish just that. We have worked very closely with our brands and our customers and Backwards from them, to understand what their key pain points have been and why they have not potentially used TV more actively Was in their overall brand-building strategy and, as a result, launch sponsored TV. I'm trying to eliminate three main pain points no guarantee commitments, no spend, minimum creative support and, lastly, access to first-party Amazon, first-party signals. Even when you advertise in TV, powered my machine learning and Right measurement so that advertise and send value, because what we've learned is spend is intimidating, a Lack of the right creative or ability to create the right credit. Just knowing what resonates on such a screen is Hard and intimidating and, lastly, just understanding the value that TV delivers for these brands was difficult. And so, given those three main pain points, that's there. That's why we're sponsored TV. I think to wrap like there is another element right. We at Amazon, we very custom obsessed and in this instance, we have two customers right. We have brands, and we just talked about the value we deliver for the brands, but there's also another key customer, which is the viewers, and for viewers, this is an opportunity to discover diverse collection of brands and products in places where they choose to spend their time. Bradley Sutton: Okay, now I'm just wondering where, like? What kind of placements are these? Are these like, like, like trailers that come up, or are there just actual, you know, banner ads that might pop up while you're watching a TV show? Ruslana: Oh, this is a TV advertising we're talking about, so they are video, so this is not this not sponsored display. Jeff: Yeah. Ruslana: This is video ads and they sponsor TV. Today service was in freebie content. Like I don't know if any of you watch freebie, I do. I love certain shows there, so big fan. So there is freebie content. There is streaming. Do you stream? Do you twitch? Bradley Sutton: Yes. Ruslana: Okay. Well, when you twitch during live streams, that could be. Another opportunity was in. Bradley Sutton: There might be people watch watching this right now on our rebroadcasts of this. Ruslana: People that twitch. This is where the ads would show. And then, lastly, was in a fire TV apps. Bradley Sutton: Okay, excellent yeah. Anne: So it was mentioned that the goal of this campaign, or at least one of the goals, is to make it more accessible to Advertisers who have lower budgets, don't necessarily want to deal with spend minimums etc. Do you feel like there's a lower level of budget sufficiency for running these campaigns, or can it be tested with a small amount of money? Ruslana: Well, we, as I said earlier, right customer obsessed, working back, working backwards from our brands and working backwards for them. I'm really observed that they do want to be able to engage with this audience. Why wouldn't you like if you launched a product that is net new, delightful, on the market? Why wouldn't you want to tell? Like you know, I talked on my keynote about hex glad. I don't know if you don't know, if you have it in your kitchen, but if you don't, I highly recommend. I discovered through our sponsor TV offering the brand and I love the non-stick and also non scratch. Bradley Sutton: Oh no, you had me out when you showed part of the video where it flipped over and nothing Was coming on. Anne: I like that. Ruslana: Very impressive and so at the end of the day, like that is the brand that I'm delighted to cook with every day, and I like my eggs for breakfast. Doesn't matter if it's Monday or Tuesday, Wednesday or Sunday, so in at the end of the day, I think these are the type of brands. They want to engage with the right audience at the right time, and I think this is the right time. Anne: Great. Can you walk us through some of the targeting that will be available with this type of advertising? Most of sponsored ads is keyword basis. That going to be the truth for Sponsored TV, or is it going to be more signal-based behavioral audiences? Ruslana: Well, we always try to help our brands reach the right audiences. So let me Maybe adjust one statement here Most of sponsor brands is not keyword based sponsored products. Keyword based sponsored Products is keywords based. Sponsor brands has keywords Elements in their way and how you express intent. Sponsored display doesn't have that way to express intent. But our aim is to always work with our brands and help them, give them the right tools to express the intent in the best possible way so we can deliver their message and their story in the right place at the right time. So in the case of sponsored TV, the advertisers could use both sort of category based interests and as well as Genre based interest. Bradley Sutton: I've got a spooky brand on Amazon, so like come Halloween season gonna be Maybe throwing some ads on some spooky Halloween shows or horror show. Anne: Perfect, I think we have time for one more question. So I'm curious how do you recommend brands measure success with these campaigns? Do you have specific KPIs that you think you know appropriately measure the success for sponsored TV or anything along those lines? Ruslana: So they reach. Traditional metrics are available similarly how they would be available for any other TV offerings, but in addition, we are sharing branded searches as well as detail page and store page Traffic, and so that is a starting point for the offering. We will continue evolving our metrics and help brands understand the value they're getting out of their sponsored TV offering Wonderful. Bradley Sutton: Thank you so much for joining us today. Ruslana: Thank you for having me and in Bradley.

Kelly Shortridge, Senior Principal Engineer at Fastly, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss their recently released book, Security Chaos Engineering: Sustaining Resilience in Software and Systems. Kelly explains why a resilient strategy is far preferable to a bubble-wrapped approach to cybersecurity, and how developer teams can use evidence to mitigate security threats. Corey and Kelly discuss how the risks of working with complex systems is perfectly illustrated by Jurassic Park, and Kelly also highlights why it's critical to address both system vulnerabilities and human vulnerabilities in your development environment rather than pointing fingers when something goes wrong.About KellyKelly Shortridge is a senior principal engineer at Fastly in the office of the CTO and lead author of "Security Chaos Engineering: Sustaining Resilience in Software and Systems" (O'Reilly Media). Shortridge is best known for their work on resilience in complex software systems, the application of behavioral economics to cybersecurity, and bringing security out of the dark ages. Shortridge has been a successful enterprise product leader as well as a startup founder (with an exit to CrowdStrike) and investment banker. Shortridge frequently advises Fortune 500s, investors, startups, and federal agencies and has spoken at major technology conferences internationally, including Black Hat USA, O'Reilly Velocity Conference, and SREcon. Shortridge's research has been featured in ACM, IEEE, and USENIX, spanning behavioral science in cybersecurity, deception strategies, and the ROI of software resilience. They also serve on the editorial board of ACM Queue.Links Referenced: Fastly: https://www.fastly.com/ Personal website: https://kellyshortridge.com Book website: https://securitychaoseng.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellyshortridge/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/swagitda_ Bluesky: https://shortridge.bsky.social TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Have you listened to the new season of Traceroute yet? Traceroute is a tech podcast that peels back the layers of the stack to tell the real, human stories about how the inner workings of our digital world affect our lives in ways you may have never thought of before. Listen and follow Traceroute on your favorite platform, or learn more about Traceroute at origins.dev. My thanks to them for sponsoring this ridiculous podcast. Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud, I'm Corey Quinn. My guest today is Kelly Shortridge, who is a Senior Principal Engineer over at Fastly, as well as the lead author of the recently released Security Chaos Engineering: Sustaining Resilience in Software and Systems. Kelly, welcome to the show.Kelly: Thank you so much for having me.Corey: So, I want to start with the honest truth that in that title, I think I know what some of the words mean, but when you put them together in that particular order, I want to make sure we're talking about the same thing. Can you explain that like I'm five, as far as what your book is about?Kelly: Yes. I'll actually start with an analogy I make in the book, which is, imagine you were trying to rollerblade to some destination. Now, one thing you could do is wrap yourself in a bunch of bubble wrap and become the bubble person, and you can waddle down the street trying to make it to your destination on the rollerblades, but if there's a gust of wind or a dog barks or something, you're going to flop over, you're not going to recover. However, if you instead do what everybody does, which is you know, kneepads and other things that keep you flexible and nimble, the gust you know, there's a gust of wind, you can kind of be agile, navigate around it; if a dog barks, you just roller-skate around it; you can reach your destination. The former, the bubble person, that's a lot of our cybersecurity today. It's just keeping us very rigid, right? And then the alternative is resilience, which is the ability to recover from failure and adapt to evolving conditions.Corey: I feel like I am about to torture your analogy to death because back when I was in school in 2000, there was an annual tradition at the school I was attending before failing out, where a bunch of us would paint ourselves green every year and then bike around the campus naked. It was the green bike ride. So, one year I did this on rollerblades. So, if you wind up looking—there's the bubble wrap, there's the safety gear, and then there's wearing absolutely nothing, which feels—Kelly: [laugh]. Yes.Corey: —kind of like the startup approach to InfoSec. It's like, “It'll be fine. What's the worst that happens?” And you're super nimble, super flexible, until suddenly, oops, now I really wish I'd done things differently.Kelly: Well, there's a reason why I don't say rollerblade naked, which other than it being rather visceral, what you described is what I've called YOLOSec before, which is not what you want to do. Because the problem when you think about it from a resilience perspective, again, is you want to be able to recover from failure and adapt. Sure, you can oftentimes move quickly, but you're probably going to erode software quality over time, so to a certain point, there's going to be some big incident, and suddenly, you aren't fast anymore, you're actually pretty slow. So, there's this, kind of, happy medium where you have enough, I would like security by design—we can talk about that a bit if you want—where you have enough of the security by design baked in and you can think of it as guardrails that you're able to withstand and recover from any failure. But yeah, going naked, that's a recipe for not being able to rollerblade, like, ever again, potentially [laugh].Corey: I think, on some level, that the correct dialing in of security posture is going to come down to context, in almost every case. I'm building something in my spare time in the off hours does not need the same security posture—mostly—as we are a bank. It feels like there's a very wide gulf between those two extremes. Unfortunately, I find that there's a certain tone-deafness coming from a lot of the security industry around oh, everyone must have security as their number one thing, ever. I mean, with my clients who I fixed their AWS bills, I have to care about security contractually, but the secrets that I hold are boring: how much money certain companies pay another very large company.Yes, I'll get sued into oblivion if that leaks, but nobody dies. Nobody is having their money stolen as a result. It's slightly embarrassing in the tech press for a cycle and then it's over and done with. That's not the same thing as a brief stint I did running tech ops at Grindr ten years ago where, leak that database and people will die. There's a strong difference between those threat models, and on some level, being able to act accordingly has been one of the more eye-opening approaches to increasing velocity in my experience. Does that align with the thesis of your book, since my copy has not yet arrived for this recording?Kelly: Yes. The book, I am not afraid to say it depends on the book, and you're right, it depends on context. I actually talk about this resilience potion recipe that you can check out if you want, these ingredients so we can sustain resilience. A key one is defining your critical functions, just what is your system's reason for existence, and that is what you want to make sure it can recover and still operate under adverse conditions, like you said.Another example I give all the time is most SaaS apps have some sort of reporting functionality. Guess what? That's not mission-critical. You don't need the utmost security on that, for the most part. But if it's processing transactions, yeah, probably you want to invest more security there. So yes, I couldn't agree more that it's context-dependent and oh, my God, does the security industry ignore that so much of the time, and it's been my gripe for, I feel like as long as I've been in the industry.Corey: I mean, there was a great talk that Netflix gave years ago where they mentioned in passing, that all developers have root in production. And that's awesome and the person next to him was super excited and I looked at their badge, and holy hell, they worked at an actual bank. That seems like a bad plan. But talking to the Netflix speaker after the fact, Dave Hahn, something that I found that was extraordinarily insightful, was that, yeah, well we just isolate off the PCI environment so the rest and sensitive data lives in its own compartmentalized area. So, at that point, yeah, you're not going to be able to break much in that scenario.It's like, that would have been helpful context to put in talk. Which I'm sure he did, but my attention span had tripped out and I missed that. But that's, on some level, constraining blast radius and not having compliance and regulatory issues extending to every corner of your environment really frees you up to do things appropriately. But there are some things where you do need to care about this stuff, regardless of how small the surface area is.Kelly: Agreed. And I introduced the concept of the effort investment portfolio in the book, which is basically, that is where does it matter to invest effort and where can you kind of like, maybe save some resources up. I think one thing you touched on, though, is, we're really talking about isolation and I actually think people don't think about isolation in as detailed or maybe as expansively as they could. Because we want both temporal and logical and spatial isolation. What you talked about is, yeah, there are some cases where you want to isolate data, you want to isolate certain subsystems, and that could be containers, it could also be AWS security groups.It could take a bunch of different forms, it could be something like RLBox in WebAssembly land. But I think that's something that I really try to highlight in the book is, there's actually a huge opportunity for security engineers starting from the design of a system to really think about how can we infuse different forms of isolation to sustain resilience.Corey: It's interesting that you use the word investment. When fixing AWS bills for a living, I've learned over the last almost seven years now of doing this that cost and architecture and cloud are fundamentally the same thing. And resilience is something that comes with a very real cost, particularly when you start looking at what the architectural choices are. And one of the big reasons that I only ever work on a fixed-fee basis is because if I'm charging for a percentage of savings or something, it inspires me to say really uncomfortable things like, “Backups are for cowards.” And, “When was the last time you saw an entire AWS availability zone go down for so long that it mattered? You don't need to worry about that.” And it does cut off an awful lot of cost issues, at the price of making the environment more fragile.That's where one of the context thing starts to come in. I mean, in many cases, if AWS is having a bad day in a given region, well does your business need that workload to be functional? For my newsletter, I have a publication system that's single-homed out of the Oregon region. If that whole thing goes down for multiple days, I'm writing that week's issue by hand because I'm going to have something different to talk about anyway. For me, there is no value in making that investment. But for companies, there absolutely is, but there's also seems to be a lack of awareness around, how much is a reasonable investment in that area when do you start making that investment? And most critically, when do you stop?Kelly: I think that's a good point, and luckily, what's on my side is the fact that there's a lot of just profligate spending in cybersecurity and [laugh] that's really what I'm focused on is, how can we spend those investments better? And I actually think there's an opportunity in many cases to ditch a ton of cybersecurity tools and focus more on some of the stuff he talked about. I agree, by the way that I've seen some threat models where it's like, well, AWS, all regions go down. I'm like, at that point, we have, like, a severe, bigger-than-whatever-you're-thinking-about problem, right?Corey: Right. So, does your business continuity plan account for every one of your staff suddenly quitting on the spot because there's a whole bunch of companies with very expensive consulting, like, problems that I'm going to go work for a week and then buy a house in cash. It's one of those areas where, yeah, people are not going to care about your environment more than they are about their families and other things that are going on. Plan accordingly. People tend to get so carried away with these things with tabletop planning exercises. And then of course, they forget little things like I overwrote the database by dropping the wrong thing. Turns out that was production. [laugh]. Remembering for [a me 00:10:00] there.Kelly: Precisely. And a lot of the chaos experiments that I talk about in the book are a lot of those, like, let's validate some of those basics, right? That's actually some of the best investments you can make. Like, if you do have backups, I can totally see your argument about backups are for cowards, but if you do have them, like, maybe you conduct experiments to make sure that they're available when you need them, and the same thing, even on the [unintelligible 00:10:21] side—Corey: No one cares about backups, but everyone really cares about restores, suddenly, right after—Kelly: Yeah.Corey: —they really should have cared about backups.Kelly: Exactly. So, I think it's looking at those experiments where it's like, okay, you have these basic assumptions in place that you assume to be invariance or assume that they're going to bail you out if something goes wrong. Let's just verify. That's a great place to start because I can tell you—I know you've been to the RSA hall floor—how many cybersecurity teams are actually assessing the efficacy and actually experimenting to see if those tools really help them during incidents. It's pretty few.Corey: Oh, vendors do not want to do those analyses. They don't want you to do those analyses, either, and if you do, for God's sakes, shut up about it. They're trying to sell things here, mostly firewalls.Kelly: Yeah, cybersecurity vendors aren't necessarily happy about my book and what I talk about because I have almost this ruthless focus on evidence and [unintelligible 00:11:08] cybersecurity vendors kind of thrive on a lack of evidence. So.Corey: There's so much fear, uncertainty, and doubt in that space and I do feel for them. It's a hard market to sell in without having to talk about here's the thing that you're defending against. In my case, it's easy to sell the AWS bill is high because if I don't have to explain why more or less setting money on fire as a bad thing, I don't really know what to tell you. I'm going to go look for a slightly different customer profile. That's not really how it works in security, I'm sure there are better go-to-market approaches, but they're hard to find, at least, ones that work holistically.Kelly: There are. And one of my priorities with the book was to really enumerate how many opportunities there are to take software engineering practices that people already know, let's say something like type systems even, and how those can actually help sustain resilience. Even things like integration testing or infrastructure as code, there are a lot of opportunities just to extend what we already do for systems reliability to sustain resilience against things that aren't attacks and just make sure that, you know, we cover a few of those cases as well. A lot of it should be really natural to software engineering teams. Again, security vendors don't like that because it turns out software engineering teams don't particularly like security vendors.Corey: I hadn't noticed that. I do wonder, though, for those who are unaware, chaos engineering started off as breaking things on purpose, which I feel like one person had a really good story and thought about it super quickly when they were about to get fired. Like, “No, no, it's called Chaos Engineering.” Good for them. It's now a well-regarded discipline. But I've always heard of it in the context of reliability of, “Oh, you think your site is going to work if the database falls over? Let's push it over and see what happens.” How does that manifest in a security context?Kelly: So, I will clarify, I think that's a slight misconception. It's really about fixing things in production, and that's the end goal. I think we should not break things just to break them, right? But I'll give a simple example, which I know it's based on what Aaron Rinehart conducted at UnitedHealth Group, which is, okay, let's inject a misconfigured port as an experiment and see what happens, end-to-end. In their case, the firewall only detected the misconfigured port 60% of the time, so 60% of the time, it works every time.But it was actually the cloud, the very common, like, Cloud configuration management tool that caught the change and alerted responders. So, it's that kind of thing where we're still trying to verify those assumptions that we have about our systems and how they behave, again, end-to-end. In a lot of cases, again, with security tools, they are not behaving as we expect. But I still argue security is just a subset of software quality, so if we're experimenting to verify, again, our assumptions and observe system behavior, we're benefiting software quality, and security is just a subset of that. Think about C code, right? It's not like there's, like, a healthy memory corruption, so it's bad for both the quality and security reason.Corey: One problem that I've had in the security space for a while is—let's [unintelligible 00:14:05] on this to AWS for a second because that is the area in which I spend the most of my time, which probably explains a lot about my personality challenges. But the problem that I keep smacking into is if I go ahead and configure everything the way that I should according to best practices and the rest, I wind up with a firehose torrent of information in terms of CloudTrail logs, et cetera. And it's expensive in its own right. But then to sort through it or to do a lot of things in security, there are basically two options. I can either buy a vendor's product, which generally tends to start around $12,000 a year and goes up rapidly from there on my current $6,000 a year bill, so okay, twice as much as the infrastructure for security monitoring. Okay.Or alternately, find a bunch of different random scripts and tools on GitHub of wildly diverging quality and sort of hope for the best on that. It feels like there's nothing in between. And the reason I care about this is not because I'm cheap but because when you have an individual learner who is either a student or a career switcher or someone just trying to experiment with this, you want them to begin as you want them to go on, and things that are no money for an enterprise are all the money to them. They're going to learn to work with the tools that they can afford. That feels like it's a big security swing and a miss. Do you agree or disagree? What's the nuance I'm missing here?Kelly: No, I don't think there's nuance you're missing. I think security observability, for one, isn't a buzzword that particularly exists. I've been trying to make it a thing, but I'm solely one individual screaming into the void. But observability just hasn't been a thing. We haven't really focused on, okay, so what, like, we get data and what do we do with it?And I think, again, from a software engineering perspective, I think there's a lot we can do. One, we can just avoid duplicating efforts. We can treat observability, again, of any sort of issue as similar, whether that's an attack or a performance issue. I think this is another place where security, or any sort of chaos experiment, shines though because if you have an idea of here's an adverse scenario we care about, you can actually see how does it manifest in the logs and you can start to figure out, like, what signals do we actually need to be looking for, what signals mattered to be able to narrow it down. Which again, it involves time and effort, but also, I can attest when you're buying the security vendor tool and, in theory, absolving some of that time and effort, it's maybe, maybe not, because it can be hard to understand what the outcomes are or what the outputs are from the tool and it can also be very difficult to tune it and to be able to explain some of the outputs. It's kind of like trading upfront effort versus long-term overall overhead if that makes sense.Corey: It does. On that note, the title of your book includes the magic key phrase ‘sustaining resilience.' I have found that security effort and investment tends to resemble a fire drill in—Kelly: [laugh].Corey: —an awful lot of places, where, “We care very much about security,” says the company, right after they very clearly failed to care about security, and I know this because I'm reading getting an email about a breach that they've just sent me. And then there's a whole bunch of running around and hair-on-fire moments. But then there's a new shiny that always comes up, a new strategic priority, and it falls to the wayside again. What do you see the drives that sustained effort and focus on resilience in a security context?Kelly: I think it's really making sure you have a learning culture, which sounds very [unintelligible 00:17:30], but things again, like, experiments can help just because when you do simulate those adverse scenarios and you see how your system behaves, it's almost like running an incident and you can use that as very fresh, kind of, like collective memory. And I even strongly recommend starting off with prior incidents in simulating those, just to see like, hey, did the improvements we make actually help? If they didn't, that can be kind of another fire under the butt, so to speak, to continue investing. So, definitely in practice—and there's some case studies in the book—it can be really helpful just to kind of like sustain that memory and sustain that learning and keep things feeling a bit fresh. It's almost like prodding the nervous system a little, just so it doesn't go back to that complacent and convenient feeling.Corey: It's one of the hard problems because—I'm sure I'm going to get castigated for this by some of the listeners—but computers are easy, particularly compared to the people. There are deterministic ways to solve almost any computer problem, but people are always going to be a little bit different, and getting them to perform the same way today that they did yesterday is an exercise in frustration. Changing the culture, changing the approach and the attitude that people take toward a lot of these things feels, from my perspective, like, something of an impossible job. Cultural transformations are things that everyone talks about, but it's rare to see them succeed.Kelly: Yes, and that's actually something that I very strongly weaved throughout the book is that if your security solutions rely on human behavior, they're going to fail. We want to either reduce hazards or eliminate hazards by design as much as possible. So, my view is very much again, like, can you make processes more repeatable? That's going to help security. I definitely do not think that if anyone takes away from my book that they need to have, like, a thousand hours of training to change hearts and minds, then they have completely misunderstood most of the book.The idea is very much like, what are practices that we want for other outcomes anyway—again, reliability or faster time to market—and how can we harness those to also be improving resilience or security at the same time? It's very much trying to think about those opportunities rather than, you know, trying to drill into people's heads, like, “Thou shalt not,” or, “Thou shall.”Corey: Way back in 2018, you gave a keynote at some conference or another and you built the entire thing on the story of Jurassic Park, specifically Ian Malcolm as one of your favorite fictional heroes, and you tied it into security in a bunch of different ways. You hadn't written this book then unless the authorship process is way longer than I think it is. So, I'm curious to get your take on what Jurassic Park can teach us about software security.Kelly: Yes, so I talk about Jurassic Park as a reference throughout the book, frequently. I've loved that book since I was a very young child. Jurassic Park is a great example of a complex system gone wrong because you can't point to any one thing. Like there's Dennis Nedry, you know, messing up the power system, but then there's also the software was looking for a very specific count of dinosaurs and they didn't anticipate there could be more in the count. Like, there are so many different factors that influenced it, you can't actually blame just, like, human error or point fingers at one thing.That's a beautiful example of how things go wrong in our software systems because like you said, there's this human element and then there's also how the humans interact and how the software components interact. But with Jurassic Park, too, I think the great thing is dinosaurs are going to do dinosaur things like eating people, and there are also equivalents in software, like C code. C code is going to do C code things, right? It's not a memory safe language, so we shouldn't be surprised when something goes wrong. We need to prepare accordingly.Corey: “How could this happen? Again?” Yeah.Kelly: Right. At a certain point, it's like, there's probably no way to sufficiently introduce isolation for dinosaurs unless you put them in a bunker where no one can see them, and it's the same thing sometimes with things like C code. There's just no amount of effort you can invest, and you're just kind of investing for a really unclear and generally not fortuitous outcome. So, I like it as kind of this analogy to think about, okay, where do our effort investments make sense and where is it sometimes like, we really just do need to refactor because we're dealing with dinosaurs here.Corey: When I was a kid, that was one of my favorite books, too. The problem is, I didn't realize I was getting a glimpse of my future at a number of crappy startups that I worked at. Because you have John Hammond, who was the owner of the park talking constantly about how, “We spared no expense,” but then you look at what actually happened and he spared every frickin expense. You have one IT person who is so criminally underpaid that smuggling dinosaur embryos off the island becomes a viable strategy for this. He wound up, “Oh, we couldn't find the right DNA, so we're just going to, like, splice some other random stuff in there. It'll be fine.”Then you have the massive overconfidence because it sounds very much like he had this almost Muskian desire to fire anyone who disagreed with him, and yeah, there was a certain lack of investment that could have been made, despite loud protestations to the contrary. I'd say that he is the root cause, he is the proximate reason for the entire failure of the park. But I'm willing to entertain disagreement on that point.Kelly: I think there are other individuals, like Dr. Wu, if you recall, like, deciding to do the frog DNA and not thinking that maybe something could go wrong. I think there was a lot of overconfidence, which you're right, we do see a lot in software. So, I think that's actually another very important lesson is that incentives matter and incentives are very hard to change, kind of like what you talked about earlier. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't include incentives in our threat model.So like, in the book I talked about, our threat models should include things like maybe yeah, people are underpaid or there is a ton of pressure to deliver things quickly or, you know, do things as cheaply as possible. That should be just as much of our threat models as all of the technical stuff too.Corey: I think that there's a lot that was in that movie that was flat-out wrong. For example, one of the kids—I forget her name; it's been a long time—was logging in and said, “Oh, this is Unix. I know Unix.” And having learned Unix as my first basically professional operating system, “No, you don't. No one knows Unix. They get very confused at some point, the question is, just how far down what rabbit hole it is.”I feel so sorry for that kid. I hope she wound up seeking therapy when she was older to realize that, no, you don't actually know Unix. It's not that you're bad at computers, it's that Unix is user-hostile, actively so. Like, the raptors, like, that's the better metaphor when everything winds up shaking out.Kelly: Yeah. I don't disagree with that. The movie definitely takes many liberties. I think what's interesting, though, is that Michael Creighton, specifically, when he talks about writing the book—I don't know how many people know this—dinosaurs were just a mechanism. He knew people would want to read it in airport.What he cared about was communicating really the danger of complex systems and how if you don't respect them and respect that interactivity and that it can baffle and surprise us, like, things will go wrong. So, I actually find it kind of beautiful in a way that the dinosaurs were almost like an afterthought. What he really cared about was exactly what we deal with all the time in software, is when things go wrong with complexity.Corey: Like one of his other books, Airframe, talked about an air disaster. There's a bunch of contributing factors in the rest, and for some reason, that did not receive the wild acclaim that Jurassic Park did to become a cultural phenomenon that we're still talking about, what, 30 years later.Kelly: Right. Dinosaurs are very compelling.Corey: They really are. I have to ask though—this is the joy of having a kid who is almost six—what is your favorite dinosaur? Not a question most people get asked very often, but I am going to trot that one out.Kelly: No. Oh, that is such a good question. Maybe a Deinonychus.Corey: Oh, because they get so angry they spit and kill people? That's amazing.Kelly: Yeah. And I like that, kind of like, nimble, smarter one, and also the fact that most of the smaller ones allegedly had feathers, which I just love this idea of, like, feather-ful murder machines. I have the classic, like, nerd kid syndrome, though, where I read all these dinosaur names as a kid and I've never pronounced them out loud. So, I'm sure there are others—Corey: Yep.Kelly: —that I would just word salad. But honestly, it's hard to go wrong with choosing a favorite dinosaur.Corey: Oh, yeah. I'm sure some paleontologist is sitting out there in the field on the dig somewhere listening to this podcast, just getting very angry at our pronunciation and things. But for God's sake, I call the database Postgres-squeal. Get in line. There's a lot of that out there where looking at a complex system failures and different contributing factors and the rest makes stuff—that's what makes things interesting.I think that there's this the idea of a root cause is almost always incorrect. It's not, “Okay, who tripped over the buried landmine,” is not the interesting question. It's, “Who buried the thing?” What were all the things that wound up contributing to this? And you can't even frame it that way in the blaming context, just because you start doing that and people clam up, and good luck figuring out what really happened.Kelly: Exactly. That's so much of what the cybersecurity industry is focused on is how do we assign blame? And it's, you know, the marketing person clicked on a link. And it's like, they do that thousands of times, like a month, and the one time, suddenly, they were stupid for doing it? That doesn't sound right.So, I'm a big fan of, yes, vanquishing root cause, thinking about contributing factors, and in particular, in any sort of incident review, you have to think about, was there a designer process problem? You can't just think about the human behavior; you have to think about where are the opportunities for us to design things better, to make this secure way more of the default way.Corey: When you talk about resilience and reliability and big, notable outages, most forward-thinking companies are going to go and do a variety of incident reviews and disclosures around everything that happened to it, depending upon levels of trust and whether your NDA'ed or not, and how much gets public is going to vary from place to place. But from a security perspective, that feels like the sort of thing that companies will clam up about and never say a word.Kelly: Yes.Corey: Because I can wind up pouring a couple of drinks into people and get the real story of outages, or the AWS bill, but security stuff, they start to wonder if I'm a state actor, on some level. When you were building all of this, how did you wind up getting people to talk candidly and forthrightly about issues that if it became tied to them that they were talking to this in public would almost certainly have negative career impact for them?Kelly: Yes, so that's almost like a trade secret, I feel like. A lot of it is yes, over the years talking with people over, generally at a conference where you know, things are tipsy. I never want to betray confidentiality, to be clear, but certainly pattern-matching across people's stories.Corey: Yeah, we're both in positions where if even the hint of they can't be trusted enters the ecosystem, I think both of our careers explode and never recover. Like it's—Kelly: Exactly.Corey: —yeah. Oh, yeah. They play fast and loose with secrets is never the reputation you want as a professional.Kelly: No. No, definitely not. So, it's much more pattern matching and trying to generalize. But again, a lot of what can go wrong is not that different when you think about a developer being really tired and making a bunch of mistakes versus an attacker. A lot of times they're very much the same, so luckily there's commonality there.I do wish the security industry was more forthright and less clandestine because frankly, all of the public postmortems that are out there about performance issues are just such, such a boon for everyone else to improve what they're doing. So, that's a change I wish would happen.Corey: So, I have to ask, given that you talk about security, chaos engineering, and resilience-and of course, software and systems—all in the title of the O'Reilly book, who is the target audience for this? Is it folks who have the word security featured three times in their job title? Is it folks who are new to the space? What is your target audience start and stop?Kelly: Yes, so I have kept it pretty broad and it's anyone who works with software, but I'll talk about the software engineering audience because that is, honestly, probably out of anyone who I would love to read the book the most because I firmly believe that there's so much that software engineering teams can do to sustain resilience and security and they don't have to be security experts. So, I've tried to demystify security, make it much less arcane, even down to, like, how attackers, you know, they have their own development lifecycle. I try to demystify that, too. So, it's very much for any team, especially, like, platform engineering teams, SREs, to think about, hey, what are some of the things maybe I'm already doing that I can extend to cover, you know, the security cases as well? So, I would love for every software engineer to check it out to see, like, hey, what are the opportunities for me to just do things slightly differently and have these great security outcomes?Corey: I really want to thank you for taking the time to talk with me about how you view these things. If people want to learn more, where's the best place for them to find you?Kelly: Yes, I have all of the social media which is increasingly fragmented, [laugh] I feel like, but I also have my personal site, kellyshortridge.com. The official book site is securitychaoseng.com as well. But otherwise, find me on LinkedIn, Twitter, [Mastodon 00:30:22], Bluesky. I'm probably blanking on the others. There's probably already a new one while we've spoken.Corey: Blue-ski is how I insist on pronouncing it as well, while we're talking about—Kelly: Blue-ski?Corey: Funhouse pronunciation on things.Kelly: I like it.Corey: Excellent. And we will, of course, put links to all of those things in the [show notes 00:30:37]. Thank you so much for being so generous with your time. I really appreciate it.Kelly: Thank you for having me and being a fellow dinosaur nerd.Corey: [laugh]. Kelly Shortridge, Senior Principal Engineer at Fastly. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an insulting comment about how our choice of dinosaurs is incorrect, then put the computer away and struggle to figure out how to open a door.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

Bosses, it's callback time! After a set of fiercely talented auditions last week, Anne & Lau narrowed it down to the 5 talents they felt had something special. Manny, Aria, Josh, Nicole, and Kelly are back and ready to read. After being thrown custom directions from your hosts, these voice actors rose to the occasion, making the final decision a difficult one. Although there can only be one winner, every experience in front of an agent, producer, and casting director is valuable. You never know what kind of impression you'll leave on them, so give it your all. The final decision came down to matching Anne & Lau's preferences with the client's needs, but you'll have to tune in to find out who that is… Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Welcome everyone to the VO BOSS podcast and the Business Superpower series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and today I'm excited to bring my special guest co-host Lau Lapides to the program. Hey Lau. Lau: Hey Anne. Glad to be here. Anne: Lau, we had an amazing live audition podcast. I am so excited for how that turned out. Lau: Oh my gosh, I can't wait to see it. And oh, what a, what a great time that was. Yeah, great group. Anne: And, and our appreciation, you guys, BOSSes out there, if you've not heard it, go, make sure that you check it out. It was our first ever live audition podcast where we had, uh, gosh, 12 people live auditioning for, uh, a particular for Expedia and, uh, with feedback and everything. And today, this episode is all about the live audition callback. So we had five people calling back, and we are going to have them come back for another round of reads, and Lau and I will pick the winner. So get ready, BOSSes. And so without further ado, hopefully people are there in the audience, uh, in the chat. Um, we have the roster, which will be Nicole Fikes, Aria Lapides, Manny Cabo, Josh Wells, uh, and Kelly White. Okay. So if you guys are ready, the first one up to audition for us again is Nicole. And Nicole, we are asking you to do the same script, which is the script for Expedia, starting with, uh, our colors. And, uh, we would like you to give us your unique second take. Lau, any particular hints, casting directions, specs? Lau: Uh, I would love to see the most coziest warmest, most relaxed read you can do, Nicole. Nicole: Coziest. Warmest, most relaxed. Okay. All right. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you. Very nice. Lau: All right. Nicole: Thank you. Anne: Yeah. I'm gonna offer one little bit of redirection. Um, can I hear the end? Um, give me a little more, I, I'm gonna say a little more punch on in even more places, in more places. Um, and, and I really wanna hear finding the colors, come, bring that home to me. Um, a little bit of a, of a smile. More of a smile at the end, 'cause you got a great deal. Nicole: Yeah. Okay. And so still warm and fuzzy but just kind of a little bit more emphasis on the colors and even more places kind of line? Anne: Yeah. And you can just pick it up at so we can go find our colors. So you don't need to do the whole thing. Yeah. Nicole: Okay. So we can go find our colors in even more places knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you. All right. Lau: Super nice. Nicely done. Thank you, Nicole. Nicole: Thanks. Lau: Love it. Anne: Now, in a real audition, Lau, how -- now in terms of if people are late or they're not connecting or, you know, there's -- I'm sure there's a grace period, I mean, everybody's human. So if there are tech issues or if somebody didn't hear that they're being called back at the precise time, how much time typically would you say casting directors will wait? Lau: Um, you know, I don't know. It's not like -- I don't think it's a hard and fast rule. I think it depends on the relationship they have with whoever's sending them in, whoever's submitting them, and if they know the talent themselves. The rule of thumb, generally speaking, is like, the less they know you and then, and the less rapport they have, the less they're gonna have patience for you and the less they're gonna wait. But here's the interesting thing, and I, I wanna share this with the folks in the background, 'cause again, they're not seeing any of the tech stuff that's going on. I just received a text right now from Aria who said, hey, could you please give me a second? I need to reset it and reboot. I would say in general, people don't like waiting, so they'll skip to the next person. And you know, as a courtesy, they will come back to you most of the time because they wanna find a good person. They don't wanna -- Anne: And that's, and that's fine. And I will look, I'll make the call here if Manny is available. Uh, you know, if Aria can't get back, Okay. Um, we can certainly take Manny and wait, you know, for later to, to get Aria on, which is fine with me. Lau: That's how, that's how it would be because if we were in a paid studio space by the hour. Anne: Yeah, exactly. Lau: We don't wait, wait for anyone. We just go on to the next person. Anne: Right. Uh, because yeah, this studio's expensive, darn it. . Lau: And you know, as, as we're, as we're saying this, the talent is emailing me because I have a direct rapport with the talent and she's saying, could you please have someone else go while I'm doing the tech setup? Anne: There you go. Lau: So I don't hold you up? See, that's exactly pro stuff. Anne: Perfect. All right, Manny, welcome back. So we're looking for your unique second read. Manny: My unique second read. Anne: You were super warm the first time. Manny: Okay. Anne: So let's, uh, let's hear something different. Manny: Okay. Let's do something fun. Anne: Okay. Manny: here we go. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you. Lau, any redirection there? Lau: I have a quick redirect just because I, I'm getting to know Manny and loving your sound. Now I would love to hear you deliver this as a standup comedian. . Manny: Standup comedian. All right, that sounds good. That's fun. Here we go. Our colors have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you could save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. . Anne: Nicely done. Lau: So good. Anne: Yeah, Lau: So good. Anne: Nicely done for, for doing that without a real joke in the script. So that was good. You channeled. And what I liked about that is that you channeled, uh, the comedic into the read even though there was nothing comedic necessarily in the script. So yeah, nicely done. Thank you. Manny: Mom, I'm an artist. I'm doing artist stuff, Mom, come on. . Anne: See? There you go. Manny: Killing me. Thanks, ladies. Anne: Thank you, Manny. Anne: And, and even that little like, improv bit at the end there, nicely done. Lau: So good, so good. Anne: That's a way to leave a nice, uh, remembrance, you know, in my brain. So love that. Lau: Anne, could I make a quick point that I meant to say before, but I didn't say before? Um, I wanted to make the point to everyone who's coming in, but also anyone who's listening in that even though this is a mock audition under educational umbrella, you are actually auditioning every single time you're in front of an agent, a producer, casting, or even coaches. And it's because we're all so connected to work all the time. So case in point, I'm already thinking of work for Manny right now. I'm already thinking of potential representation for him right now because it doesn't matter that it's a, a podcast or a class or a course or a coaching. What matters is we're actually having the real connection and the real stuff. So never like mark through like a dancer might mark -- do it full out 'cause whoever you're with, may be the next person to help you work. Anne: You've planted the seed, right? Lau: Yes. Yeah. Anne: You've planted the seed, so, excellent. Yes. Aria, so wonderful to have you here. We are ready for you. Now we, so I know last time we had thrown that wrench in the, in the loop there for you. Aria: Hey, that's okay. Anne: A completely new script. Aria: Yeah. I enjoy that. Anne: And so and so now because you, you know, were really a cold read there -- Aria: Yeah. Anne: Let's give us the most to spec read, warm, non-announcery, not deliver -- uh, you know, nothing, nothing performy, and tell us that story. Lau, any additional direction? Lau: Um, yes. I would like you to do two things at once. I'd like you to care immensely about what you're talking about. And I also want you to not give a shit about it at all. . There you go. Aria: . Oh, you sort of a birch tree. Anne: That's exactly what I was looking for too, Lau, perfect. Aria: I love that. I love that. That's like my whole thing, right? I care so deeply, but I also don't care at all. Okay. Our colors. See, they have a way of finding us wherever they are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% adding a hotel or flight, so we can find our colors in even more places knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Bravo. Nicely done. Uh, way to take direction. I heard both care and not care in there at the same time. Aria: I'm good at that. Anne: Really nicely done now. Aria: Thank you. Anne: . That was the, Okay, so now that you can care and not care, uh, let's just give us uh, something completely different. A wild take from you. One more. Yeah, I got you. A wild take from you. Aria: Okay. Lau: I loved it. And also one more thing, be very careful of, I know you're not in a soundproof space right now. Be very careful of excess noise 'cause you actually clapped at the end. You did something to make noise. So just be careful of, you know, hitting something or any excess noise. Aria: Be careful of using your body, hitting something, excess noise. Got you. Echo. Our colors. They have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with the Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% adding a hotel and a flight, and even more places, you know, knowing you got a great deal. Expedia, ah, made to travel. Anne: Perfect. Let's hear that again. You missed a line. Aria: Yeah. Okay. Okay. So let's hear that again. Aria: Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever they are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places knowing that we have a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you. Lau? Lau: Yeah. I wanna make a comment about this. And again, it's like that oxymoron kind of thing. On one hand I love that choice and I loved how you, how quickly you did it. You didn't care. You just, you just, it was that improv in you. You just did it. You went 100% and I loved that. And actually you had a sort of European amorphous kind of non-real, real thing going on, which I like. Aria: Yeah. Lau: But just from an educational perspective for everyone, you wouldn't be able to do it for the most part, right? Because we are so much about particular appropriation that that authentic sound would be from somewhere and we would have to do the casting. Aria: And that's so funny that you say that 'cause I was actually originally gonna do like a Valley girl. 'Cause I was like, I feel like that would be a little bit more appropriate, at least for my age group than. Lau: No, but I think your choice was really right on in terms of the actor spirit. Anne: I think so too, in terms of making it more international. Lau: It was cool. Anne: And especially for the subject, but you're absolutely right, Lau. That's one thing that I was going to say, that maybe, you know unless you knew specifically that there was something in the specs that they were looking, and that it wasn't critical that it was, you know, from a, you know, a native speaker. Um, but I like the actor party knew that that gave that the shot for sure. Aria: Yeah. 'Cause you guys are so right, like, especially these days, like they want the authentic thing. Like I've -- even in acting, they're like, if you aren't this specific thing, I'm sorry, you can't play the role. And I'm like, it's okay, it's okay. Anne: Yeah. Yeah. Lau: So that, so I loved it, but I wouldn't be able to cast it. Right. Just like, you know. Aria: I just got that noted. Yeah. I appreciate it. All right. Awesome, guys, thank you. Lau: Thank you. Anne: Thank you. All right. That was fun. Yeah, absolutely. Um, Josh. Hi Josh. Josh: Hi. How's it going? Anne: Fantastic. Thank you. Josh: Cool. Anne: Um, Lau, any, uh, direction that you wanna give before he reads? Lau: Yeah, sure. Sure. Josh, I love what you're doing. Just give me a little bit more professor that is mixed with surfboard. So let's say he's like a, a UC, you know, LA professor that goes surfing during his lunch break. Josh: Sure. Dig it. Okay. Cool. All right. Uh, Josh Wells. Lau: I think you're a little low too. Is that me? Josh: Am I little low? Lau: I feel like your volume -- Josh: Well, I'm, I'm away from the mic, but how about here? Is this better? Lau: That's better. Josh: Okay, cool. Cool. All right. Excellent. Uh, Josh Wells, non-union. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Lau: So I, I I mean, I felt like you're moving there, you're not there yet. You're sort of holding on. There's a held feeling to it. Like, I would want you to let it go. Let it go. Let it move forward. Ride the wave. Ride the wave. And be careful of the pausing too much. It has an unnatural feel to it. Josh: Dig it. Lau: So, you know what I'm saying? Anne: Yeah. I was gonna say, I, I missed the surfer, kind of channeling of the surfer. I wanted to, I felt like I needed a little more, more relaxed. Um, and then also I, I, I just, I have a personal issue with the word a because in a conversation it's usually you're adding a hotel and not A hotel. But that's, you know, that's just my ears here. Josh: Um, I've got the note before, I'll -- Anne: Yeah. So yeah, if you can give me a little more of the relaxed, you know, kind of like mm, you know, the half smile. Um, I'd like to hear that again. Josh: Okay. You got it. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you. I liked your ending. I like the different end on the tag there. Josh: Thank you. I appreciate it. Lau: Thanks Josh. You have a great cat that ate the canary sound. You had that really sort of wise cracking wise guy sound, which I really like a lot. I'd wanna play with that even more. Anne: Yeah. Lau: Yeah. Anne: And I would say, I would say for the, I still, you know, I'm in California, so it's the surfer, you know, I guess it's that me, I felt like you were almost leaning towards a little more like, uh, you know, Midwest sort of, Sam Elliott kind of relaxed. So work on the surfer. I think you've got it in you, for sure. Josh: Okay. Thank you. Appreciate that note. Anne: Yeah. Nice. I, I really like your tone. Thank you. Josh: Awesome. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Anne: Okay. Kelly White. Kelly: Hello, hello. Anne: Hi, Kelly. Lau: Hey Kelly. Kelly: Hey, how are you? Anne: Nice to see you back. Kelly: Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity. Appreciate it. Anne: Awesome. So, uh, Lau, do you have any, any specific direction you'd like? Lau: Yeah, so Kelly, keep in mind that we're going for a slightly younger demographic. So as we love the richness and texture and heaviness of your sound, we really feel like you might be able to go in that direction of the 30s to even early 40s sound of like something that is the fast moving person, multitasking person, young, professional person raising young children. I know you know nothing about that. I'm joking 'cause I know Kelly well. Kelly has small, young children, so target that on a busy day. Kelly: Okay. Anne: But remember that your colors, I, I wanna feel the, I wanna feel the colors, uh, being, bringing you home. Kelly: Okay. Our colors, they have a way of binding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Lau: Can I ask a question? If this is a busy mom, a young busy mom, what does colors mean to you? To her? What does that actually mean literally? Kelly: Um, just different aspects of probably her life. Just different things that she's doing, different things she has going on. Lau: Yeah. And the idea that she also wants to escape from it. Kelly: Gotcha. Anne: And find. Lau: And the colors of the ocean. The colors of the mountains, the greenery, the islands, the -- Anne: And find herself in more places than just her home. Kelly: Got it. That's right. Lau: Explore her, her inner world. Right? Her fantasy. Welcome to Fantasy Is -- give me more Fantasy Island, I think. Kelly: Got it. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Nice. I'd like to have -- I really like the way you slowed that down and, and emphasize the colors and you brought that home. Um, and I think knowing we've got a great -- knowing we got a great deal. I'd like to hear just that last part again so we can go find our colors in even more places knowing we got a great deal. That's like your, that's like your mom, like that's your mom's secret. Like you just got a deal, you just had a coupon, and you know what, you're excited about it. And so you're sharing that with us. Okay? And, uh, let's just, just hear that one more, one more time please. Kelly: Okay. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Nice. Can I ask for one more? Can I ask for an alternate on just, just the, so we can find our colors in even more places knowing we got a great deal -- can I get an ABC read of that? That would be three different ways. Kelly: Okay. So we can go find our colors in even more places knowing we got a great deal. So we can go find our colors in even more places knowing we got a great deal. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Anne: Thank you, Kelly. Kelly: You're welcome. Thank you so much. Anne: Nicely done. Kelly: Thank you. Lau: Thank you hun. Appreciate it. Kelly: All right. Lau: All right. That's everyone. Yeah? Anne: That is everyone. Wow. You guys all did an amazing job. This is gonna be tough. Lau: Actually, I think it's gonna be easier than we think only because we kind of get and know what that client wants. And that's gonna help us deduce down who we need to be picking along who we want to be picking. So what, what, what are your top thoughts on top, top people? Who are your top, top two? Anne: Uh, my top people I am going to say, uh, is going to be Manny, Aria and Kelly . Lau: Okay. And my top people are Manny and Nicole. Okay. So we've got Manny in common there, which is a strong choice. And, and what's even stronger about Manny is, and it's genderless. Like they don't care what gender, that's fine. But they want diversity talent. And Manny is, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, Manny, I believe Latina and is bilingual and so can offer a Spanish read of this. So there's a, there's a super compelling reason why he may book this. Anne: And, and, and let's also talk about, you know, as we, as we mentioned before with our feedback, the fact that he was able to, uh, you know, take good direction, that's so, so very important, right, change up his read, which he did, uh, when asked. Also when leaving, when we asked him for the comedic read and I said, nice job, even though there's no comedic in there, he was actually able to leave us without sounding like too, like, you know, trying too desperate or trying to impress us. He did a line that was comedic that impressed me. And so I really liked the nuance of that and for me, that stood out and made him very memorable. Lau: Yeah. I mean, when he did that last mom thing, and I was like, wow, this guy is like really ready. He is ready Freddy. He is, There's no fooling around with Manny. Like, he's a super pro. And again, I'm saying this like, I don't know Manny at all. He was referred over to me last night for, uh, a VO Spanish audition that we got in from Miami. Unfortunately, he did not make that call because it was a time sensitive. So I said, and this happens all the time, I said, hey, I would love for you to come on our podcast. We're doing mock auditions today. He came on today in good spirit that he missed the actual audition, but not, not any fault of his. He just didn't, you know, he came in late and then came in today, and now I'm thinking, how can I work with Manny? Anne: Sure, sure. Absolutely. Lau: See, that's the way life is. So, Okay. So he's my top choice then. Anne: Yeah. He's my top choice too. And, and I'm gonna say, you know, my other picks, you know, again, I had for demographic, uh, you know, Aria, I love the voice, I love the demographic. I think that she's, she's, uh, great with that. She did give a complete different read um, you know, on either one. I liked her acting instincts there. Um, and so again, that sometimes, guys, it, it, it can turn out to be like just these tiny little things that can separate, you know, who we decide and not. And Kelly I liked because we asked her to do a lot there at the end too, and she came through with her three different reads, which I liked, uh, a whole lot. Uh, in terms of demographic too, I thought that she was appropriate. Um, I wanted, I wanted a little younger sound though that. Lau: I did too. Wonderful. I felt -- that felt just a little square, a little boxy for me. Like I, it had, again, she's got a good corporate feel. She's got a good businessy feel. Um, I wanted a-- I wanted more, it was a very staccato type of reads. I wanted more flowy-ness to it. I wanted more, more hangout energy. And also Aria was terrific, no question. I felt she's got age and room to grow. I thought she was a little too young for this one somehow. Anne: Okay. No, I would totally agree with you on that. Lau: But again, we're splitting hairs, you know? We're like going, okay, we're looking at union and non-union status, we're looking at diversity, we're looking at age, we're looking at all these different factors that separate people when really all of these people could be booked on this. Anne: Yeah. And just, you know, other words, you know, like for Nicole, Nicole really has that warm read down. I'll tell you. She really does. You know, I don't wanna leave this without feedback for all of, all of you. Um, because Nicole, you have that, that warm read. And that's something I think when you've got it, you know, go for it. When there are auditions that call for that warmth, go for them, because that seems to be a signature style for you. And then I'll, I'll say a little bit about let's see, who else was it that -- Josh. Right? Lau: And can I just say about Nicole before you leave that? See, okay. Again, listeners, you don't know what's in our head and how it's shifting so fast. Nicole was actually my first pick for this. But the, but the age, the diversity, diversity factor came in and this factor and that. See, and it shifted the game. It has nothing to do with, can Nicole do this job? Is she great and right for it? Of course she is. But there were other factors. Anne: I think everyone, every one of you could have done this job, No question. Um, and now we just talk about different factors in terms of demographic. So keep that in mind, guys, when you, when you let things get you down and you think that, oh, they didn't pick me, um, it has a lot to do with things other than just your voice or your performance. And also it could be like, well, I've worked with, uh, you know, I've worked with Manny before, and I just know he's gonna come through and give us whatever we want. Or, you know, I've worked with Nicole before, and you know, or my cousin knows Nicole and, and, and really recommends her or whatever it is, guys, don't let the fact that you don't get the gig, you know, you know, gets you down because there's so many things, so many, many factors here. Um, and like I say, all five of you I think could have done this job well. And what has shifted us, I think, is again, going back to what the, what the client wants, what we think is best for the brand. And always guys, I think if you can, can look up the brand. At this point, you've had some time with the script. Um, if you don't know the brand, go look at the brand. Look them up, Google's your friend, uh, find out who they're, who are they marketing to, What does their brand look like on the web? And try to really learn as much as you can about that brand because you're speaking on behalf of the brand. Not only are you telling the story of the script, but you're also speaking on behalf of the brand. So knowing -- the more you know, right, the more you know, uh, I think the more educated you are, the better, the better you're going to be. And sometimes, you know, it just, it comes down to, you know, splitting hairs like Lau said before. Lau: Yeah. And if you, even if you go, like, I just used this example the other day. Even if you go into like an Apple store and you're looking for a new Mac, and you go on the Mac, and you sort of test it out, you're going, okay, what's the capability of all this, all these programs? What is the this, what is the that? What does it look like? Is it easy to use? Do I like this pro -- da da da? What am I willing to pay for it? It's not that the Mac itself is not something that you could buy and love and enjoy and could work well. It's just the difference between this $1000 Mac and this $2,000 Mac, and what are the differences? So don't discount yourself or devalue yourself like, they don't like me, I'm not good enough. Whatever. No, you just may not have a quality or a program, if you will, that someone else has that we need for the job. Anne: And, and as we mentioned before, you know, there's a lot of, you know, can you sound younger? Right? That kind of thing. Like people, there's no way it, you know -- I may have a younger sounding voice given my age, but there's no way I'm going to sound millennial. Um, you know what I mean? And so like sometimes it's beyond your control also. Um, if they're looking for a gravitas, if they're looking for a texture and you don't -- I have a very clear voice. Right? If they want something that has more texture in it or rasp in it, that wouldn't be me. Um, but just knowing that can help you to just continue, I think always maintaining -- you know, be the best actor you can be because the things that you can control sometimes, like your voice, like the tone and the texture, and you know, there's lots of things you can do with vocal placement, with characters, but when it comes to this type of a read, where we're looking for authenticity, you know, it's, it's, we don't need you to go into character mode necessarily. Um, but we need authenticity. And that, that is, I think the, the, the thing that you can really concentrate on and practice and get better at as an actor. I think that's so important. Lau: And know knowing that, that self knowing of, of who you are and your brand, what your best qualities are, what your niche is, what is your niche market -- that honesty, that truthfulness will only set you free over time because it will free up a lot of your time so that you're not focusing on jobs that you're simply not gonna get because they can get the authentic read when that, you may not fall into that category. Just focus in those areas that are really your strong suits. Anne: Absolutely. Well then I think we've declared our winner, Lau. Lau: Woo. Anne: So congratulations to Manny. Lau: Yay, Manny. Anne: Um, you are our, you are our voice for Expedia. So congratulations, and thanks to all of you that came in and auditioned in our first podcast. Thanks to you guys who came back for the callbacks. I hope that you've gotten some value out of these, uh, two podcasts, and, uh, we hope to keep them coming your way. I think this could wrap up our episode. Lau: I love it. I mean, I love it. I mean, look at this, in less -- in just about two hours, little over two hours, we went through all the tech glitches, all the directions, all the preliminaries of auditions, the breakdown into the short list, then all the way up to the person who's gonna book the role. Anne: And you heard our brains, you heard us thinking and speaking out loud and casting. And so hopefully you all have a better understanding of what it takes to get cast and what's behind the casting, the casting glass. And, uh, yeah, you guys were all amazing. I really, really appreciate it. So with that being said, guys, I'm gonna give a big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can connect and network like BOSSes. Find out more at ipDTL.com. Lau, you're amazing. BOSSes out there, you're amazing. Thank you so much. Have a -- an amazing week and we'll see you next week. Lau: Kudos to everyone. Thanks so much. Have a great weekend. Bye. Anne: Bye. Congrats. >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voBOSS.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

Get in the hot seat! Anne & Lau put on their casting director hats as they host live auditions with members of the BOSS community. There is something magical about a live audition…especially when the casting directors switch up the script at the last minute. These auditionees were on their toes, reading cold & nailing it. Anne & Lau share their favorite tips for before the audition & reflect on all that went right (and wrong). Stay tuned to hear who got a callback + will be featured in next week's episode. Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Woohoo!. Hey everyone. Welcome to the Vo BOSS podcast and the Business Superpower series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, along with my very special guest co-host Lau Lapides. Woohoo. Lau: Hey everyone. Anne: Hey Lau. Lau: Happy Saturday. Anne: Lau, we have a extra special podcast edition today. We are doing live auditions for the very first time, and I am so excited. Lau: I love it. I love it. It's my specialty. I can't wait, Anne, can't wait. Anne: And we are going to be having people come on doing live auditions as well as people in the audience and will be joining us later on for a Q and A. So I am so very excited. Now, live auditions. Remember back when before the pandemic, when we would go into studios and audition for direct -- casting directors? Ugh. Lau: And that required us to actually see other human beings and talk to them and maybe even shake their hand? Anne: I know. And you know what? And you know what? One of the most important things about that is, is that we would not see the script until we walked into that studio. And there was always the possibility when we actually got into the room, they would change the script on us. Lau: Yes. Anne: So guess what, Lau? Lau: What, Anne? Anne: The client has changed the script. Lau: Ooh. Anne: So for our auditioners out there, and everybody in the audience, I'm sorry, but we had to throw the wrench into the, the loop of things. And we now have a different script that we will be sending to you to live audition with. So I know that Carol is out there waiting to send that new script out with new specs, and we will continue on with the auditions. And I have to say, I just love, I love the Internet and I love technology because it allows us to really do something really cool like this. Lau: Yeah. It's totally amazing. Completely amazing. And you know, just a moment on that real cold impromptu, last minute script, because I know so many voice actors are like, what do you mean? What do you mean? What do you mean? Meanwhile, you have to calm down and take a breath because so many of us are either on a pay-to-play site, or we're on hold with our agent, or we're working with casting on a project, and it's happening fast. It's coming and going really fast, and you guys are really getting used to turning things around fast. So the idea of a cold script should not put you out at all. It should be kind of like a fun challenge for you and really in your wheelhouse as a pro VO of something that really you need to be able to do. Anne: Yeah. And I can't tell you the countless number of times I've been on a live session where, you know, in the moment they're changing the script. And so you really have to be able to have those muscles to be able to quickly adapt and give the client what they're looking for. So I will say that this was a, a kind of a, a completely different script , but you know, remember we are here for educational purposes, and we hope all of you are going to really enjoy and reap the benefits of this exercise that we're going to be doing. I will go through the specs. Because this is for educational purposes, the specs for this script, uh, are open to all genders and ethnicities. And I will read the specs out loud here. Our FVO is a great actor, there we go, who can effortlessly imbue meaning and nuance into the story. They have lived a rich full life, having seen the world with all its wonders and is able to speak about their experiences with confidence and authority while their delivery has a poetic cadence . And by the way, you guys are all getting this. Um, this is done subtly and with a light touch. They never come across as dramatic, performative or as if they are laying on the gravitas. They are natural and have an air of lightness to the read that balances out their connection to the emotion perfectly. And as always, nothing smooth, nothing polished or announcery at all. . So we've got, that's a big paragraph of specs, Lau. What do you, what's your thought about specifications and when talent, you know, read the specs? Are they, you know, are they trying to match those specs exactly? Or what's important, uh, when it comes time to actually doing this audition? Lau: Great question. And I'll tell you, there's a lot of theories and philosophies about your descriptions, your breakdowns, and how to handle them. One of my favorites as a coach that I use all the time is to ask the talent to not read the specs up front. Now, this -- I'm not talking about today, because today's session is a live session, and so time is of the essence. But if you were at home and you had a day or two days to turn around an audition, it's a really interesting and telling exercise to not read the specs at all and give your takes and give a whole bunch of takes. And then go back and read the specs and see what did I bring from my point of view, from my interpretation and what kind of matches what the vision of the producer is? Am I in that realm? Am I not in that realm? Anne: Excellent points. Yeah. Let's have Michelle come on in. Hey, Michelle. Lau: Hey Michelle. Michelle: Hi. Can you guys hear me okay? Anne: We can, we can. Thank you for being the first one. I'm excited. Michelle: Oh my goodness. Okay. I just I'm excited to be here as well. Anne: Okay. So would you like a second, because you just got it? I mean, Lau and I can just discuss one other thing quickly about once you're in front of the mic and you're doing a live cold read, Lau, what is your best advice? Oh, for talent? Lau: Oh, wow. That's, that's a great question. First of all, have fun. Enjoy it. You're gonna get very few of those, right, Michelle? I mean, it's just like an exciting, energized, kind of dopamine experience. And for those of us who live on high octane junkies, we love that stuff. It's real time interaction, which I love. And so I would say make sure you're breathing. Make sure you're nice and warmed up, and you take breaks when you need to take breaks. Well, you'd be given a break after you read -- and make specific clear, active acting choices, Michelle, like, don't, don't, uh, generalize it. Don't just fly through it for the sake of time. Really make specific choices that you can change. And you should always have a good two to three really unique interpretations that you could do if they said, yeah, that's good, but can you change it out? You can change it out. Michelle: Got it. Thank you. Lau: Awesome. Anne: So when you're ready, feel free to slate and audition please. Michelle: Michelle Dillard. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you very much. Michelle: Thank you. Anne: Okay. Onto our next auditioner. Uh, on my list. I have Ryan, I hope it's Geiser. Lau: Hello. Anne: Hello, Ryan. Ryan: Oh, cool. I'm in. Lau: Hey Ryan. Ryan: Hi. Lau: Welcome. Ryan: Thank you. Uh, so I'm Ryan Geiser, non-union, MCVO. Um, our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you. I was, uh, taking notes, just so you know that if I'm not responding right away, I'm taking notes. So thank you very much. Our next contestant , our next auditioner, I have, uh, Rosie, uh, Roberson? Lau: Yes. Anne: All right. Rosie. Rosie: Hello, everyone. Anne: Hello, Rosie. Nice to see you. Rosie: Well, I'm glad I got in . It's a little tricky there. Just let me know when to start. Anne: Okay. Well, we're ready. Rosie: Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with Expedia membership, you, you can save up at 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors and even more places knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Awesome. Thank you very much. Okay. Our next, I have Manny Cabo. Manny: Hey ladies, how are you? Anne: Welcome. Manny: Welcome. Anne: Thanks for, thanks for joining us. Manny: Oh, thanks for having me. This was a last minute thing. I was, I just got off Covid for like two weeks, so believe me, this is a breath of fresh air. Anne: Oh, lovely. Well, I'm glad you're feeling better. Manny: Yeah, me too. Anne: All right, well, we are ready when you are. Manny: All right, let's do this. Here we go. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors and even more places knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you so much, Manny. Awesome. Next on my list, I have, uh, Josh Wells. Josh. Josh: Hi. How's it going, Anne? Nice to meet you. Hi Lau. Anne: Hi. Nice to meet you too. Welcome. Thanks for joining us. Josh: Yeah. Super excited. Anne: We are ready when -- we are ready when you are. Josh: Heck yeah. Cool. All right. Josh Wells, non-union, Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you. Thank you very much. All right. Um, up next, we should have Kelly White. Kelly White. You are next for the live auditions on VO BOSS. Kelly: Hello. Anne: Hi, Kelly. Kelly: Hi there. Nice to meet you Anne. Hi, Lau. Anne: Yes. Wonderful to see you. Kelly: Thank you. Anne: All right, well, we are ready when you are. Kelly: Okay. Kelly White. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Fantastic. All right. Who do I have next? I have Alicia Hiller. Alicia: Hello. . Anne: Hello. Welcome. Alicia: Good -- good to meet you. Hi, Lau. Anne: Yes. Thanks for joining us today. All right, we're ready when you are. Alicia: Alicia Hiller. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Fantastic. Thank you so much. Ah, Aria. Fantastic. Real cold read. All right. So we are ready when you are. Aria: Okay. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever they are. And with a new Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a new hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places when we know a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. All right, cool. Thank you, guys.wor Anne: Thank you. All right. Um, and now Carole. Carole, we're ready when you are. Carole: All righty. Thank you. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors and even more places knowing we got great deal -- knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you. Carol. Just remember a lot of times we have auditions with instructions, right? It's important to just go through those instructions too. And I know like you know, there's a lot of people who like, you know, and the forms we'll talk about, well, you know, should I get SourceConnect and then, you know, or should I wait until I get my first client? And this would be one of the reasons why , why you wanna make sure you test out all those tech things first. I am proud to be able to to give you this technical -- these technical issues to help you to learn because you know, it's all our mission, right, Lau -- our mission is to educate. Lau: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm like, you know, I'm not a negative Nelly at all. But I'm very much a realist and I say to folks, even if you've used your program, even if you've used your booth a million times, get in there early. Because anything that can go wrong probably will. And you wanna be able to have time to troubleshoot that and not miss out. So it is a good lesson. It is. Anne: Nicole. Nicole: Hi. Anne: Hi. Welcome. Nicole: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited. Anne: Yes, absolutely. Well, we are ready when you are. Nicole: Okay. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors in even more places, knowing we got a great deal. Expedia, made to travel. There you go. Anne: Thank you so much. Nicole: Thank you. Anne: I remember being in the LA area, and of course, Lau, I mean, maybe if you ever had to run into the city to do a live audition, right, traffic, traffic. And so when the audition time was slotted right, you would I -- you would pray that there was no traffic jam that would be holding you up. And if you did hit a traffic jam and you got there late, sometimes you missed the audition. Sometimes you got there way early and that therefore you had the script. So I kind of like how we're really mimicking this. You would, you know, you'd be able to practice with the script a little bit longer if they had a, if you had a line in front of you. So, you know, I feel that there's all these -- this tech issues are kind of mimicking the traffic that we would hit when we would be, you know, in the car on the way to the studio. And thankfully now, we can, you know? Lau: The, the one, the one element of this that I think is really different and unique to the circumstance, that is sometimes we can't help tech glitches when they happen, and sometimes we can. And so just kind of knowing the difference. Like I'll give you an example. For instance, if someone knows that they have to be on a laptop and have to go through Chrome in order to do the audition, it's really on that person to go on a laptop and go through Chrome. That's something that could be avoided, but all of a sudden my transmission is bad because the hurricane, all of a sudden, you know, my lights go out. You know, that's something I can't help. So I think being able to determine what I sort of have control over and I sort of don't have control over -- and then the other thing too, and this is just me, you and I are exactly alike in this way, Anne, I will leave four hours early to get to an appointment, knowing that if I'm three hours early, I can do my work, I can have coffee, I can shop, I can do whatever. I don't wanna do the last minute thing ever. Like that really stresses me out. And so just for everyone coming in, like leave yourself plenty of time. Anne: Oh, fantastic. Stephanie. Stephanie: Hi. Anne: Welcome. Stephanie: Thank you. Shall I? Anne: Thanks for being here. Yes, we are ready when you are. Stephanie: Okay. Our colors, they have a way of finding us wherever we are. And with an Expedia membership, you can save up to 30% when adding a hotel to a flight. So we can go find our colors even in more places, knowing we got a deal. Expedia, made to travel. Anne: Thank you so much. So Lau, I have my notes ready and you have your notes ready. Let's talk. Lau: I do. And I am wondering whether it's now or maybe later, if we could also go over some of our top kind of rules of the road in this kind of an audition. We talked a little bit about it throughout, but like, what are our top, you know, 5, 6, 7, 8 things that we wanna see people be prepared to do or not do that happened today? Like, because here's the thing, from the talent's point of view, they see nothing. Like they know nothing and see nothing. You, I ,and Sean we're doing this whole massive thing -- and Carol -- this whole massive thing to make this session run. Anne: Right, behind the scenes. Lau: I would love to share a little bit of that so that again, we can go back to what is in my power to change and control and prepare for and what is really not. Anne: Fantastic. Lau: Are you okay with that? If we like just throw a few rules of the road in? Anne: Yeah, absolutely. So let's go ahead and start, Lau. Lau: Okay. I'm gonna start. So one of the things that is -- and again, I'm sharing this educationally, I don't want anyone to feel like we're chiding you or, or, or, you know, cussing you out or anything. It's not about that. This is about education. So that when you're on the real deal in the real scene, a lot of this will sort of dissipate, and you'll be able to work streamlined like a pro. So this entire time, and you'll see my head was down a lot when you see the video of this -- why? Not because I was falling asleep, because I was constantly texting, constantly emailing and helping people troubleshoot all along the way. Now I'm not the tech person to help you troubleshoot. I was expediting those emails and texts over to Anne, over to Sean, over to Carol where they needed to go. In the real world, you won't be able to do that. This is not the real world. This is our educational fun forum. But in the real world, there will be no one to text, no one to email, and no one to help you tech troubleshoot. So, simple things to avoid, I really want y'all to avoid is knowing the device you have to be on, knowing the, uh, uh, application or the program you need to be on, testing it through, preferably the day before rather than the day of. And also being in a solid space where you've got some audio integrity. You're not in the middle of a huge room or in a car or in a big living room to get the best quality that you can get. So those are all, in my mind, things you can somewhat control so that you can get to the next step, which is your talent, your work, your audition. Many of you couldn't get to it fully, 'cause I know most of you. You just couldn't get to it fully because you were so concerned about the tech, about all the tech stuff that was going on. Anne: And, and also, I do wanna say that those instructions were sent out a couple of days in advance, even though our, we changed the script on you. The instructions were sent out. And, and look, most people, if it's going to be a technical, you know, if it's going to be something technical like this where you're joining, uh, remotely via, you know, SourceConnect, ipDTL or some other form like Riverside, it is definitely advantageous to, uh, to test that technology out. You know, it's always wonderful to have a group of, you know, of, of colleagues that you can work with at any given time and say, hey, look, can you help me test? I mean, there's a lot of you know, forums and groups out there that say, hey, I need to do a SourceConnect test right now. Can you help me somebody test with me? So make sure that if this is something that you need to, to do, to do it in advance. And especially if, you know, a lot of times we're asked to record as well, and this could just be something maybe we're recording in, you know, through, uh, SourceConnect Now, or we're recording locally or whatever it is, Make sure that you hit that button and test it in advance. And so not having the technology throw your performance, which I'm sure it probably did for some of us a little bit, and I feel like, I feel like I might have heard that in some of your reads. Um, and as well as, you know, everything that you can possibly do to make that session go smooth. And also, you know, trying not to let that show when you get in the room to actually do the audition. Right? It's in and out and no excess. Nothing necessarily in terms of like, not too much small chat because -- Lau: Anne, you took it outta my head. You took it right outta my mouth. That was my next point, was like, there used to be an ad campaign many years ago for a deodorant, never let 'em see you sweat. That's where like, we're an actor. We're an actor, we're an actor. And what do actors do? They have to act. And that doesn't mean in the role all the time, that means as a business person, like you have to make your client feel like everything's okay. Anne: Oh yeah, absolutely. Lau: Don't worry about it. The sky isn't falling, even though it may not be okay. And you may not be able to audition and they may be disappointed. Don't let them feel like you are disappointed, you're upset, you're worried, you're scared, because that, that mirrors onto them. And then that, that becomes a, like a, you know, a, a slippery slope as they say. Anne: Yeah, absolutely. Lau: You know? Anne: Absolutely. Lau: But then being said, Anne, I do wanna congratulate everyone for the ones that -- actually most people were able to get in and show up and do -- almost all. And I just wanna give you a huge round of applause in kudos for doing that, despite your issues and your tech glitches and your confusion and your craziness. Look, you did it. You showed up. You went through it. That's the pro that we wanna build onto. Anne: Yeah. And I, and I wanna say thank you, really. I mean, this is, this was the first time that we've done this. And I think that it's, I like to believe that it's educationally valuable to, you know, the community. And I thank you for being a part of that, uh, from the bottom of my heart, really. Um, I'm really proud of all of you. Number one, it's a Saturday. So thank you for coming out and doing that and then dealing with tech frustrations. And so let's talk a little bit, Lau, about selections. Do you, do you -- Lau: Let's. Do you want to create our shortlists? Anne: I think we should create our shortlists. So first of all, I'm gonna say uh, you know, for, for a lot of the people, I feel that because it was a cold read, there were a lot of reads that sounded a little bit cold read. Um. And so if you had time, right, if you were not the first person, literally, or even if you were the first person, like the, I think my suggestion would be out of the mouth immediately once you get that script. Um, you know what I mean? Get that, get those words out of your mouth because that becomes muscle memory. That's gonna help you make it not sound like a cold read. It's gonna help you get the context of the script quickly. And remember, we are storytellers. We need to tell the story. Even though this was a short script, there was a definite story there. And I needed to feel, above the words coming out correctly, I needed to feel the warmth, the emotion, the point of view. Lau: Mm. I love all that. And as an actor, I mean, I think, you know, we have to choose very specific, very quick actor choices. We don't know if they're gonna work. We don't know how they're gonna land, but we have to be connected to something that's real. We have to know who am I speaking to and what am I connecting to. I like to use props. I mean, I'm a big prop -- like even if I'm, you know, if I'm doing a, a makeup ad, I might have my lipstick ready to go. You may never see it, right, 'cause I'm a voiceover. So you may never see it, but I feel it. I smell it. It's in my hand. There's something, you know, visceral about stuff that is real, that I can hold, I can use, I can feel. I like that. And engaging the body as well. So whether I'm sitting, I'm standing, whatever I'm doing is like, how does this translate within my body? Where's the energy coming from? You know, some of you came in with really warm, rich, textured sound, and that felt right to me. It felt like a way to go. It felt like a path. And as I watched you, I could sort of see where that vibration was coming from. I could sort of see where that was coming from today. So I think not disconnecting your head and your voice from the rest of your body and your spirit is super important. Anne: Now I'm also gonna point out that, you know, part of the specs and, and I think part of what I think innately most people are looking for in this style of, of script is something, you know, uh, not, uh, nothing smooth, polished, or announcery at all. Okay? So that's hard when you're doing a cold read. So the sooner I said, the sooner you can get that script outta your mouth -- and by the way, if you weren't one of the first few that came on board, you know, maybe that's something you were doing in the background right? Until we called you, because we definitely had enough time now through this whole process where people towards the end had a good, ample amount of time to kind of get a feel for that script, you know, and, and really, and do and, and just really feel the copy, understand the copy, know what story you're telling. Natural, and again, I'm looking at some of the specs that we were looking for, you know, natural, not performative, not laying on the gravitas, um, an air of lightness to the reed, which I liked. Um, there was some really nice light reads in there that I liked. Um, what else can I say about, you know -- and I think following the specs is one thing, but then adding something different, right? In addition to making it that non-announcery, telling the story, there, there, I think trying to incorporate something that's a little bit different, a little bit unique, uh, something that you think no other talent is going to give, right? That might surprise us. So I had a couple of, you know, as I was typing madly my notes, a couple of melodies that I heard in there that were really nice, There was like a, a, a lilt on one of the words or maybe a little point of view that was different than I was anticipating, which made me stand up and take notice. And guess what I did, Lau? I actually starred those, uh, those reads. And those are the people that I am, I have on my list to call back. So. Lau: They got Anne's gold star. That means something. Anne: They got my stars. Lau: That means something, right? I love that. That's great. I love that. Oh, there's a point I was just gonna make and I forgot what I was gonna say, but, but I'm hearing you on what you're saying, Anne, because I think that the, that that disappointment, if you will that word disappointment of, I'm ready, I'm prepared, I'm doing this -- wait a second, I'm not doing that. I'm doing something else. Whatever that is, that disappointment, that surprise, that let down that, that confusion, like, it's really important to feel that and be in that space. Certainly as casting as you are, as agent as I am, we're constantly dealing with that. Just when I think it's one thing and I know it, it turns into something else and I don't know it. And typically it's because of priority. So if someone switches a script or someone switches an audition, it's typically, typically because another audition came in that's much more time sensitive. So we have to, I might love say Manny or Kelly or Stephanie, but I also kind of love them for this new one that came in. So I want them to put that on hold just for a second and take this script and do it. So being able to improvise, impromptu, shift fast, interpret fast, I think is really important. Anne: Yeah. And, and before we actually I think reveal, because you and I, I mean, I have my list and you have your list, so we need to agree upon five people that we're gonna be calling back. Uh, I, I really just wanna say that, that it's something, that's something different, right? Uh, the more that you can practice reading your scripts, I mean, I can't say enough how, how important it is to just find different scripts, read, practice all the time, audition -- it, it just helps you to be stronger. And get feedback from, you know, from coaches and, and people that you trust that have been in the industry, that can really help you to, to, you know, uh, perform better and make those bold moves, and workout groups I think are so important. Um, like I have my VO Peeps group and every month, you know, we are working out, and, and, and I know that Lau, you have the same thing. Uh, those are so important to help you get that practice under your belt so that you can -- you need to experience all the different styles, all the different reads in order to make mistakes and grow from them. Lau: Absolutely. Anne: Think it's all about growth, all about growth as an actor. And, and if you're not doing something every day that is voiceover, that is, uh, you know, looking at different scripts, scenarios, practicing, working, uh, I, I think you're, you're missing the boat on growing as an actor. Lau: Right, right. And I think it's also the how we deal with stress. How do we balance, how do we manage time? How do we manage our crazy lives when this stuff comes in? Because you -- you know, I always say be careful what you wish for. You might get it . And when it comes in, it always comes in at the most in inopportune times. It always comes in at the time when you're the busiest, and you're working, and you have events, and you have kids. It always does 100% of the time. So you kind of always have to set your life up that I can go in the space, I can do this quickly, I can make it happen even though I've got a whole bunch of layers going on around me. They don't need to know about it. As we always say, uh, leave your trash at the door. You can come get it on your way out. Don't bring it into the studio. Um, and, and being able to really practice that, really practice that skill along with your actual delivery skill. 'Cause it's a whole other skill, that's an executive functioning skill. That's like, how do I manage 25 things at once and how do I make those 25 things all feel important and all feel like I'm not getting crazy? Like, that's, that's a functioning skill that we have to practice and we have to really work on every day along with the actual acting skills. Anne: Yeah. Right. Lau: That is, we work -- Anne: On, Oh, I'm sorry. I, I was just, I was thinking, I was thinking, uh, while you were talking. Now as we reveal -- Lau, I'm gonna have you read, you know, maybe a list or a couple of people that you, that you kind of have selected and we'll see if we agree. Lau: Yeah. Actually, can I ask you, Anne, just to crosscheck, how many out of our list do we have that actually auditioned? Or maybe I should say how many did not audition? 'Cause it seemed like most auditioned. Anne: Three, uh, three did not. Um. Lau: Okay, great. Yeah. So we had 12 -- Anne: Well, actually, actually two out of the list did not, and then you added, uh, Brit, so. Lau: Okay. So we actually had 12 or 13? Anne: Yep. We actually had 12. Lau: Fantastic turnout. Anne: Out of the original list we had 13. Yeah. Lau: Don't you think that's -- Anne: That's fantastic. Lau: That's a fantastic turnout because we always have, in any audition, a percentage of people who do not audition. There are no shows where they just don't audition for many reasons. So that's actually very high, that level of -- Anne: And they didn't even know their script. Well, they -- Lau: And they didn't know anything and they still showed up. Anne: Yeah. That's good. So. Lau: But see, I think that's a testament. I wanna, I wanna make mention, I think it's a testament to Anne, to myself, and to the nature of this whole group, this whole community of how much we trust each other, we care for each other. And you're just getting to know Anne, many of you, and, and she's part of our community now. And like, like-minded people hold each other up, motivate each other, inspire each other, and through the difficult moments, get each other through it. And that's exactly what happened today. Exactly. And so I just wanna call attention to that from a, a, a social and, and professional friend network, but also a community, sort of inspirational, motivational, holding each other through this. You guys did that, even though you may not have talked to each other. You may not have met with each other. You did that in the space, you did that in the online space. And that's -- Anne: And in the chat. Lau: -- so important to do. Absolutely. The chat. That was great. Okay. So how many, Anne, you think are we gonna shortlist here? Would you say six? Anne: I've, I've got five marked. Lau: Okay. Anne: I've got five marked. Lau: Okay. Anne: Um, so that I'd like to hear, and I, and I just wanna say one other word. Not only was it how I wanted to hear that script in terms of the specs, because consider I am the client or I'm, I'm with the client or I'm representing the client, how I wanted it to be that non-announcery warm feeling with all the, with all the feels, uh, in that description. It's also water. I feel like the voice also, if it hadthe sound that I was looking for. And so there are some that I feel out of the five, I feel some did one better than you know, the other. Um, but they all had something that made me put them on the short list. Lau: So, Okay. So, uh, uh, first of all, everyone had something that I could potentially work with. I would just wanna say that I'm not just saying that to butter people up. I'm saying everyone has a unique quality that I could really direct and work with, but based on what we were looking for and what our vision is, here's some of my top peeps. Okay? I'm just looking my list. Okay. So Manny is one of my tops. Okay? Anne: Agreed. Lau: And I have Kelly, who's one of my tops. Anne: Okay. Lau: And I have Nicole. Anne: Yes. Lau: And I have Aria, and I have, uh, Josh. I wasn't sure how many we're looking for. So -- Anne: Five. Lau: So that's, that's five. I have more. But we'll stop at that. We, we'll stop at that. Anne: Okay. So I have -- I agreed with you on Nicole, Manny, uh, Josh, and then I also had, uh, marked Alicia and uh, Carole. Lau: Good. Three outta five ain't bad. . Anne: Yeah. So, uh, we definitely have the three. Now let's just discuss. Let's just discuss because I think, uh, for me, Nicole had a nice hush that says some of the, the notes that I wrote about Nicole that I really liked. And, and Nicole was also second, so she didn't have a ton of time to prepare. Um, and she came through even with that. Now -- Lau: And you know what I loved about Nicole is when she delivers, there is something that is transfor -- transports me when she speaks that I'm in a different world. I'm in a different mode, I'm in a different world. There's something a little bit magical about her sound that I caught right away. And about her essence, because we were meeting her and seeing her on camera, there's very calm, sort of meditative, logical head on the ground feel to her. And I, that all kind of went together as this really lovely package of someone who I felt really safe with, I felt really good with. Anne: Awesome. Uh, uh, Manny, like from the first few words, I kind of had him marked already. He started off, he started off with a real warm, nice, friendly, uh, not announcery style. And that's what I really, you know, I immediately wrote, you know, stars there. Lau: Yeah, he's super pro. He has a pro sound. There is a polish there without sounding overly announcery. Um, there's a clarity there, and there's also this kind of like sexiness to it that I didn't expect, uh, because I wasn't looking for that. So there was this, uh, appeal to it that, that I really liked. It was almost essential appeal without asking for that, which I liked. Um. Anne: Uh, fantastic. Lau: And he seemed very sure of himself. 'Cause I had not met Manny at all. Anne: Very confident. Lau: He was brought over by a dear friend. And we literally met today when he came in, and I just, I just loved his presence. I just loved his confidence, and I just loved his kind of chill, laidback, but professional guy persona. He had a persona that was very strong that I heard his sound. Anne: Yeah, I agree. I completely agree. Um, Josh, now I have Josh. Um, there was a word of course I was typing so furiously that I couldn't type the word correctly, but he had a word in there that caught my attention, and it was the timbre and the lilt of the word. So as I was mentioning before, sometimes it's just something a little bit different that captures your attention. Um, and so that's one of the reasons why I marked him. Uh, and then, so there's where our three agree upon, and so now we just have to talk a little bit about our ex, our next two. Lau: And I wanted to make mention about Josh too Because Josh, and I don't know, I don't know if this is age related or, or what, but there's, he's right in the middle. There's an interesting gray zone that he's in between that cool -- Anne: Yes, I agree. Lau: -- surfer dude, laidback guy. And someone who's a little bit more professional and on it, someone who's a little bit more with it, the guy in the know. So he has that standup comedy, funny, fun appeal to him, but he has the serious enough that he can land it and have some ethos there. Anne: Agreed. Agreed. Lau: That's why I love Josh. Okay. Um, okay. The two outside of that, yours was Carol and Alicia. Anne: Carol and Alicia. Yes. Lau: You know, close second, this is what people spend fighting behind closed doors about for like hours or days is like you're kind of fighting over people who are all talented. Anne: And that's it. I think, you know, and, and here's the deal, here's where it comes in. So Lau and I are gonna discuss who those other two are gonna be. And, uh, this is probably what happens in most casting , right, offices or whoever's fighting you for the client. And we'll just go back and forth, uh, on the reasons why, you know, we either want this for the callback, right? And, and even what during the callback we'll be figuring out, well, you know, what is the reasoning for any one particular voice? And sometimes you just don't know what that is, and it's not always based on performance sometimes. Lau: No. It's just sometimes it's just like an instinct, a feeling, an impulse. And, and in my mind I'm thinking some of these people are like, oh, okay, so if this person can't do it, they're booked, or they get sick or whatever, then this person could easily go in. Totally. So it isn't the case where I really love this person and I really don't love this -- It's not always that case. Anne: Yeah. Yeah. Lau: There's a lot of like, gray zones of people that kind of fall in the same grouping, but that just don't make it to the booking, you know? Um, so Carol's voice is fantastic. I mean, it's very, to me, very corporate sounding. It has very businessy, corporatey, flight attendant-ish, finding the exit kind of sound. I like it. I love it. It's, I felt it was a little bit too objectified, a little bit too removed for the level of warmth that I was, was looking for this 'cause it is travel. When I think about travel now, and I think about number one, trying to reach the younger people, the younger generation, I think about a slightly, you know, not younger -- younger is a mythical word. It's just like a slightly more, more energized or more youthful kind of thing. Anne: Sure. I get that. I get that. Lau: And then also a, a, a little bit of like boxy or squareness in terms of it. Anne: But now when I, of course, Carole, as you said, more corporate and of course, you know, I'm very attuned to the corporate ear because I do a lot of that myself. Now, I'm also gonna say for Carole and thinking of travel, I was thinking, oh, she would make me feel comfortable on a plane, like if she were the flight attendant and so Expedia. So that was one of the reasons I thought it fit. But I'm going actually, and I'll cede you Aria because I love Aria. Lau: You'll raise me Aria. Anne: I'll raise you Aria because even though I didn't check her, I do love that voice. She's got that youthful, that youthful style if that's the market we're looking for. Um, she, you know, we did give her a different script immediately. Like she literally had no time to even voice it and have it come out of her mouth. So I have to take that with, you know, a little bit, uh, you know, a grain of salt because she really didn't even get it out of her mouth, except that was the first time. So for me, I had written that it was a little fast, but I understand why, because it was the first time coming out of her mouth. Now if I'm going on my gut and saying, you know, could you convince me, Aria, um, yeah, you could because of, because I like the timbre, the tone of her voice, the demographic is there for the script. And, uh, so yeah, that's my, that's my thoughts. Lau: And, and you know, I just wanna point out that, you know, if we don't forget about who are really, who's our target demographic for this, and is like both of these women could absolutely deliver this script. But when we get back to, you know, who the client really wants us to be looking at, it's really that, you know, 18 to 35 demographic. Because let's be honest, that's most of the people that are on like Travelocity, Kayak, Expedia, and going up-up-up -- not to say the 40 and up are not doing it, but for this particular one, one of the goals is to kind of find someone who has a bit more energized or youthful presence. Anne: All right. You've convinced me. Lau: So anyway, so that's one issue there too as well. Okay. Anne: Yep. You've convinced me. Lau: Okay, so Alicia kind of fits that. Anne: Okay. Lau: Alicia kind of fits that. Anne: Oh yes. Lau: Um, and I love her quality. She's got a rocky, dirty sort of like textured young sound. So I do like it. I, I felt like it was a little slow, like it wasn't as energized. Anne: Yes, I agree with you there. Um, and I wasn't, I wasn't thinking slow in terms of the read, but more contemplative and thoughtful. And she was another one who had a really nice different sound on the word -- she interpreted the word color toward the end of the script a little bit differently than most other people too, so we can find our colors. And I feel like that the, the operative word obviously in, in any story that we're telling, right, there's some operative words in there that really need to kind of hit the, the listener. Color is one of those words. And she really had a different, a slightly different pitch on the word color, which is why I I marked her. So. Lau: Right. Now, here's the thing that you and I both skipped over. And you guys listening in, this happens all the time. Um, you guys both, ironically we both skipped over the fact that the client does want diversity for these roles. And I don't know how I could skip that over, but I got excited with the switch out of script, but -- Anne: Well, we did change, we did change it for this purpose to all genders and ethnicities. But you're right. I mean, diversity is something that has to be a consideration and -- Lau: Right, authentically, right, diverse. So whereas like someone like Kelly, who I know very well and is a total pro, and can do this in her sleep fits that bill in so many ways and the voice is so layered and rich and textured -- Anne: Oh, I agree with that. Lau: -- and seasoned -- Anne: I agree with that. Lau: You know, it's, we're gonna have to go back and forth on, you know, the age thing and the youthful-ness thing because she's much more of a mature sound in my mind. Anne: My only, my only comments, I mean I did, I did like Kelly, I, my only comments was that she was a little too fast on the read I thought on that. And so, but you know what I'm -- Lau: But we can direct her. Anne: I could -- okay. Lau: Where she's directable. Anne: I feel that she -- all right then, then. Alright, so then I think we have our five then. Lau: And you know how I know she's directable, for those listening in? Because we know her personally. We have a relationship with her. Anne: Okay. Now -- Lau: Normally I couldn't say that if I don't know her. Anne: That's what I'm gonna say. So, and only, and only in this instant, right, if, if you know a casting director, here's an advantage, right? Um, if a casting director has heard you before or hired you before or has worked with you before, you know, it's, it behooves you to have, you know, a, a, an excellent relationship. Or when you work with them, make it as smooth as possible. Make it easy for the casting director. Make it easy for them to work with you, and they'll remember and have you coming back. So. Lau: And quite oftentimes, the casting, we see this all the time at the agency, we'll come back to the agents and go, love it. Great. Good. Need some retakes. It's too slow, I need it, da da da da. Right? And then we can go back to those people and we know that they can do it. They're capable of it. They're willing to. Anne: Yep. All right, So then we have our list, our callbacks. We're gonna call these five people back. Nicole Fikes, Aria Lapides, Manny Cabo, Josh Wells, and Kelly White. Congratulations. I would like to give a great big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can connect and network like BOSSes. Find out more at ipdtl.com. You guys were amazing. I can't wait for the next episode. Lau, love you. Thank you so much, guys, and we'll see you soon. Lau: Great job. Anne: Bye-bye. >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voBOSS.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

Ethics in the 21st Century: Management Accounting Practices for Robust Compliance Programs Fool Me Once: Scams, Stories, and Secrets from the Trillion-Dollar Fraud Industry Connect with KellyFull Episode Transcript:Adam:Welcome back to Count Me In, the podcast that takes you inside the impactful world of management accounting. This is Adam Larson, and today is a special edition of Count Me In to Celebrate Global Ethics Day 2022. And there's no better guess for such an occasion than Kelly Richmond Pope, IMA's Research Fellow for Corporate Governance and Ethics, professor of forensic accounting at DePaul University, award-winning filmmaker and the author of the forthcoming book, Fool Me Once: Scams Stories and Secrets from the Trillion Dollar Fraud Industry. Kelly and Neha discuss her latest IMA report focus on how management accountants are modernized in compliance in the 21st century. Plus we get a preview of her new book and lots of other updates. It's always interesting when Kelly stops by. So let's start the conversation.Neha:Welcome back to Count Me in. Kelly, it's such a pleasure to have you again on the show.Kelly:Thanks for having me back.Neha:First of all, congratulations on your new report, Ethics in the 21st century that came out recently.Kelly:Thank you.Neha:Our listeners would love to know what the report is all about.Kelly:The report is an overview of how to not only update the compliance function within your organization, but utilizing managerial accountants in those updates. So that's really what the gist of the report is, and we focus on three recommendations on how to update that.Neha:Wow, that sounds like a very helpful report for management accountants and finance and accounting professionals around the world. So I've went through the report and saw that you call designing an Effective Compliance program, both an art and a science. Can you help our listeners understand what you mean by that?Kelly:Well, you know, it's one of those jargon terms you use a lot and it sounds good when you use it, but now you've asked me a question about it. So let me tell you what I mean by that. I think that the science part is the fact that a lot of programs or organizations are siloed into departments, and so that's the scientific understanding of how we believe organizations should work. So you have your legal department, you have your accounting department, You may have your internal audit department, you may have operations, and all of these departments are siloed. And so I think that that's the science of how we organize companies. But the art is how to utilize all of those different departments together and finding the strengths of each of those groups and bringing them together. So they're one cohesive machine that works together, is the art part of it. And that takes some skill because we don't think about an approach of everyone working together. We think about a very siloed approach of how we work, and I think that when we are trying to update our, our compliance programs, we really need to look at these various silo departments and pull from those so that we can have this one cohesive teamNeha:That is very insightful and it might be a jargon, but thanks for helping us understand it better. Now of course, most companies try to have some sort of compliance program in place, right? What do you think is the biggest inhibitor when it comes to the effectiveness of these compliance programs?Kelly:Well, I think there's two inhibitors. One is compliance. The word compliance triggers people to think, all I need to do is check the box and just get this done. And the second is, most people believe that they don't need it. They believe that they're ethical. They believe that they don't need this type of reinforcement. So you have these two forces that you're battling. And quite honestly, most organizations do have very boring compliance training. And some of it is routine, but there is room for it to be more engaging and more dynamic. So I think the fact that we have conditioned people to think about this as, Oh goodness, here comes compliance again. Just let me get this done. And so we have a level set, a level shift that we need to make within our employee base to even get them excited about what we have around compliance. So you're fighting an uphill battle from the beginning. And so how, what, what can we infuse into compliance to really change that to get more people on board, is the big question.Neha:That's so true. Every time I've had conversations in companies, people think compliance training is going to be a snooze fest. So thanks for bringing that up. And can you help us understand how can companies avoid that kind of mentality or perception about compliance training?Kelly:Well, I think when compliance, there are some routine things about compliance, and that is true, but I think where you have the opportunity to be creative, you should be. And so my passion area, my research area is around fraud and forensic accounting. And I think that there are areas within the compliance training realm that can lend itself to more creative and more engaging types of approaches. And we tend to not do those. If we do that more, I think that we can change the attitude around compliance and make people more excited about it.Neha:Absolutely. Love that, Kelly. Let me pivot from that and ask you another question about whistle blowing. Now, how can companies incentivize internal reporting? So employees feel empowered to speak up when they see any misconduct?Kelly:You know, whistle blowing is an interesting topic because again, you have this same uphill battle that you're fighting. And a couple years back, I did a TED Talk entitled how whistleblowers shape history. And one of my motivations around doing the talk, because the whole idea around TED is do you have an idea worth sharing? And so my motivation around doing the talk was because whistleblowers are so valuable to organizations and to society, but how can we encourage more people to come forward when it has such a negative stigma? So I think one of the things that we need to do within our organizations is first remove the stigma and almost celebrate it. And it's, it's hard because despite the benefits that whistle blowers offer us, we tend to not trust them when they come forward. We tend to be skeptical of them, and we then tend to shun them.Kelly:And so if that's the, if that's the negative connotation around the action, no one's gonna do it. So if an organization can switch that thinking, and maybe they have an e-newsletter where they're sharing monthly, quarterly, annually, the wins and the value that internal reporters, maybe we even call 'em a different name, but what they've offered to an organization, maybe that is one way that we can encourage people to come forward prizes, whether they're monetary or non monetary, in other words, incentivizing people for their actions always will, will warrant a different type of behavior. So I think that we have to embrace a new attitude around the types of actions that we want our our employees to, to display for us.Neha:And that sure is an idea worth sharing. Thanks for sharing that, Kelly. I was thinking about some, some of the things that I read in the report and I came across the term values-based compliance programs. Can you help me understand what that means?Kelly:Well, I think the, just using the exact terms, I think that what we have to do, and this is really how we get more buy in from people, from our employees, is we link our training to the values and the missions of our organization. And I think that's one of the ways that you can get more people championing this kind of work. I think that one of the problems is employees and I, you know, I'm an employee too, we often see a huge disconnect between what we're being asked to do and the mission of the organization. So if we can have more of a value based approach to compliance so we can show people the why even more as to why this is important and why we have to do it, I think again, you'll have more engagement, more buy-in, and hopefully even more retention.Neha:So true about the why, right? It brings all of it together. And you also talk about other things like gamification and storytelling in compliance training. That sounds really fascinating for a talent development professional like me. Can you tell us how that can be done?Kelly:Absolutely. I mean, just think about what if I said this to you, I wanna tell you a story about you automatically get excited because you know that I'm about to take you on a journey versus if I say, I'm gonna tell you the rules of driving, you're going to automatically say, oh goodness, she's about to go through some procedures and policies with me and it's gonna bore me out of my mind. So I think that when we use stories as our foundation, we engage people, The science around storytelling shows us that we see ourselves in the story that we're listening to, and that's why we have more connection to what we're listening to. So I think that when it lends itself appropriate, we should use scenarios, we should use stories, we should use cases when it's appropriate. The problem is, I think a lot of times with compliance, we end up just focusing on the rules and the procedures and we lose the human connection.Kelly:And I think what storytelling does is it brings back the human side of what we're trying to convey. You know, I just finished writing a book and it's a book about fraud. It's called Fool Me Once. And one of the things that I really focus on in the book is the human side of fraud. Not just the scheme, but there is often a reason why a person ends up where they're ending up. And so I like to bring the, the human side back to anything, any type of content that I'm training around. And I think with compliance training, there are great stories. I mean, just think about why, just talk about the rule when you can use a story that almost exemplifies a person that broke that rule. Not only is it more interesting, you are talking about the why it's important within your company, and then you're linking it back to the mission of, hopefully you're linking it back to the mission of your organization. So it's, it's a win, win, win for everyone. When I think you can ground your training into a storyNeha:That's very fascinating, Kelly, you, you write about the human side and when emotions get involved in learning, people do remember their, their stuff so much better. The learning is so much more sticky for them. And you mentioned your book Fool Me Once, would you like to tell us more about it?Kelly:Sure. I can talk all day about that. So Fool Me Once is the full title is Fool Me Once: Stories and Lessons Inside the Trillion Dollar Fraud Industry. And it's being published, it'll come out March, 2023 but you can preorder it now, but it's being published by Harvard Business Review Press. And one of the things that I talk about in the book is I use the journey of doing my documentary all the queens horses as really the through story throughout the book. So what I'm talking about is what I do, I use a story to really pull everyone in, everyone that I want to read it. And so as I was doing the book and as I've been interviewing white collar felons and whistle blowers throughout my career and victims of fraud, what I've noticed is why that I've had these different emotions around whistleblowers, victims of fraud and and perpetrators.Kelly:And so understanding their why is, is something that the book is all about. And so what I did is I came up with this fraud archetype of whistleblowers, perpetrators and prey. So I'll call 'em perps, prey, and whistle blowers. And so I argue that there are different types of perpetrators. There's intentional perpetrators, there are accidental perpetrators, and then there are righteous perpetrators. And that righteous perpetrator category might be a little controversial for a lot of people, but some people do things to truly help other people. That is true. And so my premise is that all perpetrators are not the same. And same with prey. Sometimes you can have two categories here, innocent bystanders and organizational targets. And so organizational targets deals with the company and innocent bystanders deals with the personal aspect of when people are preyed upon.Kelly:And then with whistleblowers, you still have these different categories of whistleblowers. You can be an accidental whistleblower, you can be a noble whistleblower, and you can be a vigilante whistleblower. And a lot of times when we think about snitches, rats, tattle tails, traitors, they're that vigilante whistleblower category. But we have these other categories too. So I break that down in the book to help people understand that you have these different emotions because some people get involved in a fraud scheme for varying reasons. It's not all the same, it's not all cookie cutter. And so I use my documentary experience as the through story because my documentary is about the largest municipal fraud in US history. And so I talk about my experiences filming that. And so the perpetrator in that story was an intentional perpetrator, and her crime was discovered by an accidental whistleblower. And the, the victims of her crime were innocent bystanders. They were residents of a town called Dixon, Illinois. So I used my theory that I came up with to really help understand just the different descriptors that I offer in the book.Neha:It is a fascinating story. By the way, Kelly, I've watched it and I invite all the listeners here today to go check out All the Queen's Horses too. And I, for myself, cannot wait to get my hands on your book. It sounds like a page turner to me. Now this is my last question for the day. Our listeners who are mostly finance and accounting professionals, they're always looking to continue learning. Now, apart from you, are there any other experts in the field who our listeners can read and also follow on social media to get the latest and greatest in the field of compliance?Kelly:Absolutely. And in the report, we have two thought leaders. We have two sidebar interviews with two thought leaders that I highly recommend. Thomas Fox, who is one of the well known compliance leaders and Richard Bistrong. And so they're different because Richard and I'm not gonna spoil the stories you go after go read the report. But Richard has both have experience with compliance and fraud, but in different ways. And so those are two thought leaders that are both on LinkedIn and on Twitter. And I would highly recommend following them and reading their writings because I've learned a lot from those two compliance thought leaders through my experiences.Neha:Fantastic. Thank you for those recommendations. And that brings us to the end of our episode today. Thank you so much for a wonderful chat and sharing your insights with us today. Kelly,Kelly:You are so welcome and I look forward to coming back again.Outro:This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast providing you with the latest perspectives of thought leaders from the accounting and finance profession. If you like what you heard and you'd like to be counted in for more relevant accounting and finance education, visit IMA's website at www.imanet.org. 

Mike Isaacson: The earth isn't flat. Everything is going downhill. [Theme song] Nazi SS UFOsLizards wearing human clothesHinduism's secret codesThese are nazi lies Race and IQ are in genesWarfare keeps the nation cleanWhiteness is an AIDS vaccineThese are nazi lies Hollow earth, white genocideMuslim's rampant femicideShooting suspects named Sam HydeHiter lived and no Jews died Army, navy, and the copsSecret service, special opsThey protect us, not sweatshopsThese are nazi lies Mike: Welcome to another episode of The Nazi Lies Podcast. Today I am joined by Kelly Weill, reporter at The Daily Beast on the fringe ideology beat and author of the book Off the Edge: Flat Earthers, Conspiracy Culture, and Why People Will Believe Anything. Ms. Weill, thanks so much for coming on the show. Kelly Weill: Hey, thank you so much for having me. Mike: So now when I finished the book, I DM'd you to tell you that you're absolutely brilliant. And the reason why is your intentional approach when it comes to being a conduit of misinformation. You're very careful in how you reference your source material so as not to lead readers to it. Can you talk a little bit about your methodology a bit and how you dealt with your sources? Kelly: Yeah, absolutely. It's weird dealing with somebody like flat earth, which is objectively wrong, right? When you're talking about that subject, you already kind of risk platforming that conspiracy theory as if there's any validity to it. So one thing that I tried to do throughout the course of my reporting and then to replicate as I was writing this book, was not to really engage with flat Earth as though it were a legitimate theory. And I kind of had it easy there. If I were doing something like medical misinformation, I would have probably had to get in the weeds a little bit more. But as far as flat earth goes, I would go to these conferences and when I was interviewing people, I'd be really straightforward. I'd be like, "Hey yo, I'm not I'm not a flat earther. I'm a reporter; I believe in the globe. But let's talk about why you believe this thing." And for me, that was a bit more interesting than the details of what exactly they believed because flat earth is wrong, but I wanted to come to why they bought into a theory that's so wrong. And when we had those conversations about their pathways to belief, that turned out to be a lot more interesting to me than just the zaniness of this theory. Mike: Okay, and we'll get into that soon. I want to talk about some things I learned. So the first thing I learned from your book is that flat earth theory is actually not that old? Like, there were cultures that believed in a flat earth, but there wasn't the sort of pseudoscientific theory to justify it. So, when does the story of the flat earth movement start? Kelly: Yeah, totally. This is a bit of a misconception actually. I know when I was a kid I thought that there was, you know, Columbus thought he might have been sailing off the edge of the world. That's not true at all. We've known for thousands of years that earth was round because you can prove it with some pretty basic math. It's something that we've been able to do long before we could physically observe the shape of the Earth. But where flat earth theory actually comes back in is in England in around 1840. And that's when we have a guy named Samuel Rowbotham. He's a really interesting guy. He was a failed leader of a socialist commune; he had his hands on all kinds of short-lived fringe movements. I had a great time going through, you know, pre-Marxist socialist newspapers to find out what he was up to. But one of his career trajectories that didn't fail had to do with misinformation. He sold fake miracle cures, sort of a proto-Alex Jones. And he started shelling this idea that maybe earth was flat. And that idea was really alluring to certain people in that moment because, around mid-1800s, we're talking about a time when the natural sciences are taking on more and more of a role in the discourse and the importance of things like religion are taking more of a backseat. So when a theory like flat Earth comes out, it allows people to discard huge swathes of science and say, "Oh, I knew it was wrong all along. Oh, the scientists are all in league with each other to keep us in the dark." So as baffling and unscientific as flat earth was, even back then, it really did allow people to affirm their priors, to cast out information they didn't want to believe in, and sort of reshape their beliefs around this new and creative and just wholly counterfactual idea. Mike: It just blew me away that Rowbotham had no predecessors whatsoever, he just kind of built this out of whole cloth, just him in the Bible. So how did flat Earth stick around? Kelly: It stuck around because he had cronies just like any conspiracy influencer we have today. You know, I've just a couple of minutes ago compared Rowbotham to Alex Jones. He had his entourage, the people who might be like Owen Shroyers of the movement, who were even louder and a bit more virulent in their dissemination of these theories. These were the people who– He had a follower named John Hampden who just reminds me so much of one of these guys who goes on YouTube and is like, "Debate me. Debate me." And he would lure actual scientific professionals into these stupid, pointless debates over established science about the shape of the world. But because he was just so tenacious and he wouldn't admit that he had lost a bet about a scientific wager and he would go to jail because he was harassing people about the shape of the world, you know, that emotional appeal, it continued to resonate with people throughout the years. And even though flat earth has ebbed and flowed a little bit in popularity, just the wildness of it, I think ,has always had an appeal for certain people who are looking for it. Mike: So, one thing I was surprised about was that the flat earth movement was rather a latecomer, as far as conspiracy theories go, to the internet. So, what brought the flat earth online? How was it received? Kelly: Yeah, that was really interesting to me, too. Because while I was researching this, I was kind of trawling through OG conspiracy pages online. What's interesting to me actually if I might take a step back here is that conspiracy theories have always been early adopters of a lot of technology. You know, Rowbotham had a friend who was running a printing press, and he was getting his flat earth zines out. There was a flat earth commune in the early 20th century, and they had one of the earliest powerful radio programs that they could broadcast along the way. So when I was looking at early internet conspiracy theories, I did find that conspiracy theorists were some of the first voices online who were really putting out weird information. So I was deep in the trenches looking at Y2K influencers and all that. But there actually, to your point, was sort of a lack of flat earth theory early on in the internet. And I can think of a few reasons for that. For a while, flat earth theory was very tied to the Flat Earth Society, which was shepherded until 2001 by this very elderly couple. They were super literally off the grid. They lived in the desert, and they just were not the type of people to get online. And a lot of their archives actually burned in a house fire. So flat Earth really kind of took a nosedive with their deaths. It came back online when some archivalist started going through those older records of this Flat Earth Society couple. And these people relaunched the Flat Earth Society online as a forum, a discussion place where people could talk. It's interesting to me. I am not completely sold on the idea that the people who relaunched the Flat Earth Society online were genuine. I think there's a reasonable chance that they're kind of fucking around like they thought it was funny. But they did resurface this huge archive of decades and decades of flat earth writings and they put them online. And that became, I think, the basis for a lot of more genuine believers to start going through the back catalog and seeing what flat earthers had been saying for the past 150 years. And eventually, it went from this sort of more moderate discussion on forums to things that could go a lot more viral with the advent of sites like YouTube. Mike: Okay so let's talk about the algorithm. How did flat earth wind up profiting from the YouTube recommendation algorithm? Kelly: Yeah, this was huge. And throughout this book, I wanted to be careful about ascribing flat earth's resurgence to any one thing, you know, any one website or any one algorithm. That said, YouTube has a lot of blood on its hands as far as flat earth goes. Basically, for quite a long time YouTube's algorithm would promote videos that it thought people would want to watch. It actually still does this, but they've done tweaks that hamper flat earth, I'll get to that in a minute. But basically, what people really want to watch, what people really want to click on at two in the morning, is not necessarily factual information. It's not really the “Eat Your Vegetables” kind of video. It's the weird scintillating stuff. If you see a video in your sidebar, a recommended video on YouTube and it says, "Is earth really flat?" Yeah, you're gonna click on that because it's just so weird you have to find out what that video is about. Because those videos performed so well, because they tapped into this curiosity and this weird factor, they started overperforming in the algorithm, and they appear to have been promoted overwhelmingly. So conspiracy YouTubers would realize that, "Hey, I can get a lot of views by having a title that references flat earth.” So from a confluence of people making flat earth videos because they're being cynical, because they knew it would get a lot of views, and people who are actually starting to get earnestly converted from these videos going and putting their genuine beliefs in these new channels, we started seeing this huge swell of flat earth videos and a pretty powerful recommendation algorithm that gave those videos a disproportionate share of traffic. I do want to note that YouTube kind of acknowledged this and changed its algorithm in 2019 specifically so that flat earth would not be such an issue. Mike: One thing you didn't draw a comparison to, or maybe I missed it, and I'm about to regurgitate one of your points, was to multilevel marketing. Like, these YouTubers are not just looking for converts to watch their videos, so that they can get monetized ads or whatever; they want converts to make videos themselves and then reference their videos so that they can get traffic that way. Can you talk a little about the culture of the flat earth movement on YouTube? Kelly: Absolutely. I think the multi-level marketing comparison is such an apt one, and I'm actually kind of mad that I don't make it in the book, because it's relevant. And you bring that up. But literally the first Flat Earth conference I went to, this one flat earth celebrity YouTuber came up to me and she started talking to me. She goes, "Oh, I didn't realize you are a reporter. I was gonna say you should maybe make some videos about flat earth." Because she thought I was there and I was being genuine and... I'm gonna say something really mean. A lot of flat Earthers are kind of like boomer men that you don't want to watch a video of. And I was a 24-year-old woman so I think that was what was going on. [laughs] But to that end, yeah, flat earthers don't just want to preach; they want to convert. And they want to build this community around themselves and around their videos because that's what keeps the theory going. Flat earth in and of itself could just be a set of talking points that you accept, and then you move on with your life. But for a lot of flat earthers, it becomes a way of life. It becomes a community that they build, and frankly, a set of relationships that they cling to because they often have deteriorating relationships with the rest of the world when they convert to this theory. So there's a very strong community basis in flat earth and other conspiracy theories. And I definitely think that flat earth YouTubers are often trying to make more flat earth YouTubers, and they're trying to promote a community that will further promote their videos. Mike: Okay. So another thing I liked about the book was the way you brought human dignity to a lot of the people you talked about (not so much the cult leaders and grifters, but just kind of average people). Can you talk a bit about the people you met during your reporting and some of their backgrounds? Kelly: Absolutely. I mean, there's no one profile for a flat earther. I know I just said a lot of them are kind of boomer guys. And maybe the average flat earther is a little bit older. But there's a surprising diversity in how people come to flat earth. When I was talking to people, I was trying to get a sense of, you know, “what were their priors?” Initially at the first flat earth conference, I went and started asking people about their political beliefs. And I found that although this movement does skew conservative, a lot of people were very disenchanted with politics and they didn't really affix themselves to a tidy political profile. So what I started doing was looking into that disaffectation. Why were people dissatisfied? Why were people looking for such a radical alternative explanation for the world? And I found quite a lot of pathways to flat earth. A lot of them are fairly upsetting; a lot of them had to do with people who were looking for new forms of community because they felt alienated in some sense, people who were looking for religious alternatives, a lot of people who came from faith traditions where they didn't fully feel like they were getting the right answers. So when I was talking to people, I think I was in a certain sense maybe trying to diagnose what exactly had gone a little bit wrong to lead them to this movement. And I found the people who were actually quite forthcoming with me, were quite generous in explaining their path to flat earth. So that's something I tried to do regardless of, you know, if somebody told me they were a Trump supporter or an Obama fan who had completely fallen out of political circles. I just tried to try and keep an eye on that human element. Mike: Okay. You have this chapter, Alone in a Flat World, where you talk about people losing their social lives to flat earth. This seems to play into this 21st-century decentralized cult phenomenon. You talk a lot about QAnon too, which is similar. So there are flat earth organizations, but apart from getting high-rolling flat earthers to a conference once a year, they don't really hold on to the movement. That's coming from the YouTube culture. Kelly: Yeah, absolutely. I think a decentralized cult is a really interesting way of thinking about flat earth and frankly a lot of other conspiracy communities. It's hard to strictly call it a cult because there's no one leader, there's no one person they take marching orders from. And yet it has a lot of the hallmarks of a cult. There's a central idea that you have to adhere to and block out all the other noise. You have to distance yourself from people who criticize this idea. It's a very in-group out-group affirming structure. And it's interesting when I started looking at that model for flat earth, it was pretty easy to apply to a lot of other fringe movements and frankly some not-so-fringe movements. I thought it was really interesting to apply to Trumpism, and I know that sounds like a very Twitter-lib talking point saying, “Oh Trump is a cult leader.” But in the more maybe psychological aspect of it, where you do think about people's willingness to create this community around a central figure or central idea at the expense of the rest of their entire world. I think that was really interesting. And it also, for me, explains why it's so hard to pull people away from these figures or ideas. Because they're not really operating on “debate me” facts and logic; they're operating on very emotional grounds. They tie a lot of their identity to flat earth or a political ideal. And so when you're trying to help them disengage from that, I think you need to also try and have some element of emotional healing. You need to offer an alternative to what sustenance they're getting from that movement. So yeah, that was definitely a model that helped me while I was thinking about flat earth and why people believe. Mike: Yeah. It's like when I was doing my research on fascism for my Ph.D.-- that I didn't complete-- [laughs] one of the articles that I came across was talking about how the condition for someone deprogramming themselves from the Nazi movement, and from cult movements in general, is not only kind of a disillusionment with the movement that they're in but also kind of like an alternative that they can jump to, like a landing pad of a community that they can segue into without having to basically be alone in the world. Kelly: Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's funny. There were a few interesting anecdotes earlier this year, and I can't fact-check them, but I think there's the plausibility to people who were saying that they had former QAnon relatives who dropped it when they found something that met that same need. One of them was an aunt who got really into K-pop, which has this huge really loud online fandom, right? And so if the aunt was into QAnon because she wanted that community around her, well there's actually something comparable and infinitely less harmful in stanning BTS or whatever. And then the other was someone whose relative was into QAnon because she liked the puzzle element, and she got into Wordle. And she did 500 Wordle knockoffs a day. And that was just kind of taking the place for her. So I think people don't turn to these ultra-irrational things for no reason at all, they're seeking some unmet need. And if we can hopefully redirect them into something as harmless as BLACKPINK or whatever, that's definitely preferable. Mike: Yeah. Okay. One interesting thing that you did in the book, which I'm not sure that you even noticed, was you adopted some of their manners of speaking. So like in particular, more towards the end of the book, you start using "flat" to refer to flat earthers in the way that someone might use "gay" to refer to someone who's gay. You describe someone as being flat. You do point out also that they often use the phrase "coming out of the closet." So can we talk about how badly these people want to be gay? [Kelly laughs] But was there an acculturation process in talking to and understanding these people, though? Kelly: Yes. And also in terms of the coming out, what's so funny to me is these people really do want some legitimate form of victimhood because they do feel victimized and so they're just borrowing the language of the queer community, which is funny because a lot of these people are quite religious and conservative and are actually anti-gay, which I just thought was wild to see. Yes, there definitely was a process of learning how to talk to these folks. I think one of them was– I was never, like I said earlier, I was never really trying to debate people. There was one thing that I had to dodge almost every time I went to a conference or I was talking to a new person on the phone, was I said, "Hey, I've got my views, you've got yours. I don't know that we're going to come to any synthesis in the course of a 30-minute conversation." But yeah, I did try and hue pretty closely to their language. People would refer to themselves as being members of a community. When I talk about flat earth I, even now, refer to it as a community. I think because I've spent so much time around them, and hearing that term and actually kind of accepting that it is for them, a very communally based thing. One thing I had to dodge quite a lot was discussions of religion. I'm very much an atheist. This is very much a religiously-influenced movement. Although flat earth doesn't necessarily have to be religious, it's predominantly quite Christian. So just kind of learning how to approach a discussion like that, and be able to honestly represent my views without putting them off. And that's a little challenging sometimes. I'm also of Jewish heritage, and a lot of, frankly, there was a good deal of anti-semitism there. So, you know, just talking in open terms about faith I found was helpful. And yeah, you do kind of adopt the vocabulary a little bit. And I hope to put it in a way in this book that folks can read and feel like they were somewhat immersed in flat earth without completely giving them credence. Mike: Yeah, I definitely got that sense. You devote a chapter to flat earth fascists, but in all, it didn't seem that significant to me. Is this a misperception on my part? It didn't seem like there were that many flat fascists. Kelly: No. I'm very glad to say that most flat earthers are not fascists. But by that same token, I did feel like it was relevant enough that I had to put it in the book. And I think that's because it speaks to a broader issue with conspiracy theories. I think conspiracy theories are very, very useful to fascists, to totalizing movements in general, because they do allow people to cast out information that they don't want to grapple with. They allow people to have a very reduced view of the world and to perceive enemies where they don't exist, to perceive persecution where it doesn't exist, to form these in-group out-group associations. So I was fascinated by the existence of some flat earth nazis, which they are around. One of the biggest flat earth video makers also has multiple neo-nazi rap albums. So it bore mentioning. But I thought it was maybe a good way to draw connections between something like flat earth, which is so zany that I think most people can laugh at it, to something like QAnon which is an equally absurd conspiracy theory but has way more fascist momentum behind it. QAnon is just a fascist fever dream. So I thought that I had to, in some way, make an allusion to how these conspiracy theories can be weaponized for something that's less funny than flat earth. Mike: Yeah. So your last chapter is about one of my favorite things to do, and that's leaving. Talk about the people that left flat earth and what we might learn from their stories. Kelly: Absolutely. It was challenging for me to find people who left the flat earth movement who were willing to speak for this book. And that's not because a lot of people don't leave flat earth, they do, but they're kind of embarrassed about it. They don't want to go on the record, because it is an embarrassing thing to be wrong about. So I'm very, very grateful for the people who did speak to me on the record about this. And something that they told me was that there was this intense feeling of overcoming themselves almost to leave flat earth. They had sunk so many relationships into this theory. They'd alienated people; they'd been very argumentative about this theory; they'd been passionate about it. There were sunk costs, right? They didn't want all of it to have been for nothing. And so they put off leaving the theory really as long as they could, as long as they could still plausibly believe it. One guy told me that he was–at the end of his belief–he was so distressed that he couldn't look up at the sky. He didn't want to see a sunset because it would disprove flat earth. And he didn't want to look at it and grapple with that. So I think it took a tremendous amount of personal honesty and bravery for these people to say, "You know what? I was actually wrong. And these losses that I've experienced from flat earth were exactly that, they were losses." But I do think what helped the people I spoke to was having a community around them outside flat earth who helped them leave and didn't make them feel like idiots, who welcomed them back even though they'd been on a long strange trip for a couple of years. And so I think going back to that idea of community, that idea of having alternatives, being able to have a safe landing, I think, was the most helpful thing for these people. Mike: Okay. Kelly, thank you so much for coming on The Nazi Lies Podcast to talk about flat Earthers. The book again is Off the Edge out from Algonquin Books. Thanks again, Ms. Weill. Kelly: Thank you so much for having me. Mike: You missed reading Off the Edge with us in The Nazi Lies Book Club, but there are still plenty of great books from our upcoming guests to read. Come join us and support the show by subscribing to our Patreon. Subscriptions start as low as $2 and some come with merch. Check us out at patreon.com/NaziLies and follow us on Twitter @NaziLies and Facebook at facebook.com/TheNSLiesPod [Theme song]

Kelly Mosser is an Aligned Success Coach and Consultant based in New York City. She supports big-hearted entrepreneurs in optimizing their businesses and doing their inner work so they can explode their impact and income while staying in radical energetic alignment. Kelly is also the host of the Top 10 podcast: “The Aligned Success Show.” Learn more about Kelly. Learn more about The Passionistas Project. Full Transcript The Passionistas: Hi, and welcome to the Passionistas Project Podcast, where we talk with women who are following their passions to inspire you to do the same. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and today we're talking with Kelly Mosser, an aligned success coach and consultant based in New York city who supports big hearted entrepreneurs in optimizing their businesses and doing their inner work so they can explode their impact and income while staying in-radical, energetic, alignment. Kelly is the host of the top 10 podcast, The Aligned Success Show. So please welcome to the show, Kelly Mosser. Kelly: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so honored to be here. You two are just both so inspiring and I'm just already lit up talking to you. So, thank you. Passionistas: Kelly, what's the one thing that you're most passionate about? Kelly: I am the most passionate about helping people do the inner work. Like you mentioned in my bio just now that I think is the key to so many things. And I think it's something that we aren't taught growing up. And I think a lot of us kind of realize it a little bit later on in life and if we had known 10 years, 20 years earlier, not to say things would turn out differently, but maybe we would've had a few fewer hiccups along the way. Maybe we would've had the opportunity to make decisions that were more in alignment with who we truly are and who we truly wanna be. I think there's just so much pressure from the outside and from our parents and our friends and the people we went to high school with and society, TV, magazines, whatever Instagram now. It's wild and I think that there's a real loss of intimacy with self, and that's really what I'm so passionate about doing, cuz I think that really is the foundational building block that everything else gets built on top of. And so that's what I'm the most passionate about in the whole world. Passionistas: So speaking of parents and friends and high school and all that stuff, what was your childhood like? And were you already building these kind of blocks when you were growing up? Kelly: That's a really great question. My childhood was very unique. My father tragically was murdered. Sorry for, trigger warning, was murdered when I was 16 months old in my family home with my whole family home. And that obviously is a really formative experience to have as a young kid. So I actually grew up with a lot of grief around. I grew up with people who were obviously very, you know, very sad, very angry, still, very loving and I'm so in awe by every single member of my family, but there was a lot of grief around and there was a lot of fear because if this can happen in our home, what's gonna happen outside. So I was a very fearful child and I actually didn't know, but I grew. Basically from 16 months old, when that event happened until I was about 21, I had PTSD and I did not know it. So I was operating with a very dysregulated, nervous system, but I adapted to it because it was, it was kind of like, does a fish even realize there's swimming in water? It's just, it's all, you know, kind of thing. I didn't realize there was a more optimal way for me to be living. I didn't realize that other people weren't terrified of everything. I didn't realize that other people weren't anxious 24 hours a day, seven days a week. So that, was obviously a huge event in my life that required years and years of healing from, and it still is really fresh and raw sometimes. But that I would say was the catalyst for understanding how my brain works. Because when I got diagnosed with PTSD, I obviously didn't wanna live in a state of over stimulated, over tax nervous system forever. So I said, I have to figure. How to heal and I didn't choose what happened to my family, but what happens next is up to me. So that's kind of my, my healing story. I fell in love with meditation through my PTSD diagnosis, because I was told that that was something that could help me. And it was really not helpful for a long time. It was, it actually made things, kind of quite a bit worse. And I think that is why people start and stop a lot with meditation. We start when we feel okay. And then as soon as things start to bubble up that feel sticky and icky, we say, you know what, I'm just gonna put this away and I'm gonna turn on Netflix instead because that's less icky to sit with. It's much more comfortable to sit and watch “Bridgerton” than it is to sit with trauma of 20 years.   So that's what led me to meditation, which led me to all of, kind of the inner work that I do now. And the coaching that I do now is really based on intimacy with self nervous system regulation, inner peace. So that's kind of how, how all of this came to be. I do want people to know that that it's possible. Like it's not going to be an easy journey, no matter. Happens to you. And I'm, I'm very much against this idea of like comparing traumas. I think every, every traumatic event is awful. And I think that there is, there's always a step forward for you. There's always, a next step you can take, there's always support available to you. So that is a big part of my message as well. Like you can make it through anything, even though I wish you didn't have to I wish that nobody ever had to go through, you know, those terrible, challenging things, but we do it's life. It's kind of just the nature of what happens here on this planet earth. But yeah, we can always move forward. Passionistas: Was there an event that made you finally decide to figure out how to, how to move past this? Kelly: Definitely. So I grew up in suburban New Jersey, which is, you know, a relatively quiet place. All my siblings were much older, so I had a lot of quiet time, you know, growing up and I liked being alone. I was, I'm a little bit of an introvert, so I always felt like I had my space. And then I moved to New York city after college. And I started working in the corporate world in a very sort of demanding stressful. Maybe a little bit toxic environment. And I was just, I, my anxiety was through the roof. It was just one day I felt like I can't even function, I'm just barely getting through the day. I'm just hanging on by a thread and I have to do something about this because New York city, as it is, is overwhelming the noises that people I'm also very sensitive to energies and sounds like, I think that's all just a product of having such a heightened nervous system my whole life. That I felt very much like a shell of a human being, living in New York, working in this job. And I realized that I was not gonna do very well if this is the life that I continued to live. So that really was the turning point for me. Passionistas: You took a little detour. You said you were in the corporate world, but you went to Georgetown to study and got a bachelor's degree in foreign service. So tell us about that choice and why you wanted to do that and why eventually you didn't. Kelly: Oh, another great question. Wow. You, you all just understand all my, all my juicies questions. I did go to Georgetown. I was really in love with travel and places and people and the world. And so I wanted to study foreign service because I wanted to be a journalist. I thought that was going to be, I'm a huge fan of writing. I love communication and so that felt like the thing that I wanted to do. And then I actually got an internship in a newsroom my senior year and I was like, what am I thinking? This is the worst place for someone with a heightened, nervous system or the history of PTSD. It's like every day in here is another traumatic event. So that didn't work out. But I'm one of those people who I get to say, I really just loved everything that I learned in college. It was amazing and so much fun. So even though my degree doesn't apply to anything that I do now, or really have ever done, except that we did have to learn an entire map of the entire world countries, cities, rivers, lakes, currencies. So that feels like some, some interesting once in a while, I'll have a good jeopardy moment. But other than that, it's a little bit useless, but I had so much fun learning and it, it showed me that, and now I'm continuing my learning journey in a totally different direction, but it just let me be okay with. Learning for the sake of loving the subject and loving the topic and not because I had to go on to, so I let myself just let go of the news dream. It was the worst possible thing. I also think it's interesting. It just proves that your brain wants what it knows and I, because all I had known was like, stress and that's what I was so programmed to thrive inside of that, that's I just chose the most stressful thing I could even fathom. So I'm very glad that I did not choose to pursue that path cuz I don't think I would've. I don't think I would've handled it, but I did get into the business world. I, my first job out of college was for a major retailer working in the buying office and I had a really good time there and just life, you know, it's amazing. You just never know where you're gonna end up. You just never know. You just can't predict it. So you make the best choice that's available to you at the time and say when the next right choice is available, I guess I'll choose that. Passionistas: So you went on this personal journey of exploration. How did you decide to make that a business and to help others? Kelly: It really started as just a passion as my Passionista. It was just a hobby. I was really passionate about helping people who were in kind of similar situations or who were on some sort of healing journey. Um, just supporting them through coaching or whatever it was. And I had. I started to kind of build this just side hustle, air quotes, um, because it was fun. And I had a pretty demanding job at a startup in New York, in the wellness space. And I really loved that, but there's also sometimes this moment where you're doing something that you love and you say, I think there's something that I would love even a little bit more than what I'm doing right now. And I think it's letting a big part of my journey has been letting myself follow those little nudges, even when things are good. Definitely when things are bad. Definitely. I follow I've learned to follow my nudges when things are bad, but even when things are pretty good, I'm like, I wonder if this could be even just a little bit better. So I started building my coaching business on the side and then I realized, wait, I actually have this. Working in strategy and operations the whole time I was in my other roles in my other career. And I realized that I also had that really, I had a lot of skills in that area, too. I had a really strong brain for strategy and operations and I thought maybe I could just combine these two things. Wouldn't that be kind of cool. So I didn't actually go full-time in my business until my mom got very sick in 2020. She's totally fine now thank goodness. But I had to quit my job. I had to move in with her full-time and be her full-time caregiver for about six months. And after that, I was like, well, this is my opportunity to really take a chance on myself and see if I have the chops to do this full-time and create a full-time income and business off of this thing that previously has just been a little side dream. And I'm so glad that I took the chance. Passionistas: Talk a little bit about how you combine spirit science and strategy to give your clients a 360 degree approach to their healing and success. Kelly: Hmm. For me, the spiritual work is kind of the foundational work for everything. And I think about spirituality in a very grounded way. For me, it really just is what is your relationship with yourself? Who are you when your fancy job title gets taken away? Who are you when your Gucci bag gets stolen? Whatever it is like, who are you at the core essence of who you are underneath, even your thoughts and your emotions, the ways that you identify in the world, the roles and responsibilities that you have. Who, what are your values? How do you show up for yourself? How do, what do you think of yourself? So that kind of spiritual element, I think, is so important for anybody. I mean anybody, but especially people who are on a path of entrepreneurship or who are stepping into some sort of leadership role, cuz life's gonna knock you down and you're gonna have not, hopefully not macro failures, but you're gonna have a lot of tiny little failures along the way. And if you don't know who you are and what you stand for those little things that shouldn't be big, things can turn into really big things. So that's kind of where the spiritual work comes in. The strategy piece. I find that, when I'm coaching people, I find a lot of times that the things that they need help with, they think they need help with mindset. They think they need help with, you know, resilience and really a lot of reason, a lot of the time, the reason that they're coming up against so many experiences where they need to be resilient, where they need to really connect with themselves is because they're following a strategy. That's not actually aligned for them. They saw it on Instagram. They bought it in a course and decided, this is my thing. That's this is my ticket to everything I've ever wanted. And when you start with a strategy, that's not actually quite right for you. You need a lot of coaching because it's really hard to get yourself aligned with something that is just not meant for you. So that's where the strategy piece comes in. I find that people need a lot less. Ongoing coaching and mindset work and resilience work and confidence work. When the strategy that they're following is perfectly tailored to their strengths, their values, their goals. And I don't think that there's any strategy that doesn't work. I think absolutely any strategy can be successful for you. As long as it's aligned for you. If it's not aligned, could be the best strategy in the world, it's not gonna work. So those are how those two things kind of go together. Alignment is a word I use a lot, you have to feel aligned and alignment is something that you can actually feel. I'm sure you, we've all had that experience of maybe showing up to a job that we know now wasn't aligned for us, but it's a physical feeling. Your body communicates with you when something's not in alignment. And when something is in alignment feels really good and there's a lot less resistance and things come more easily to you. So it's my goal to get people on that path. That maybe they don't even realize is possible for them. And then to support them in implementing and executing everything that goes along with that, because of course there will still be little moments of resistance and fear is a big thing that comes up a lot. And knowing that the path that I think people really need to follow is the one that is most aligned for them. There's still gonna be challenges along the way. I fell in love with the brain, so I studying about the brain to help myself heal from PTSD was so important. It was like, if I'm someone who, if you tell me to meditate, I'm gonna say no, unless you tell me why on a mechanical level, how is this helping me on a biological physiological level? How is this helping? Then, Now I'm now I'm interested. I have a, I have a lot of Virgo in my chart, so I like need to understand things. Otherwise I can't, I have no interest. So I really got passionate about understanding the brain better and I've taken a few courses now about the brain, um, and I'm going to continue to study neuroscience because I'm just so fascinated by it. And I think it's a really important piece that a lot of people don't understand, but it's such a valuable to understand why your brain does what it does. Why it gets emotionally triggered or activated when certain things happen and how you can coach yourself through those moments of big fear or big self doubt, I think is just so valuable. So those are my, my three pillars that I'm obsessed with. And I think in order to really create whatever kind of success you want, whatever aligned success means for you, cuz it's gonna mean something different to every single one of us. Being able to understand yourself on those levels and have a strategy that is totally aligned for you are just kind of non-negotiables. So that's why I cover those three pillar. Melanie Childers: Hey Passionistas, I'm Melanie Childers, the business coach for feminist entrepreneurs and if you are ready to get off the hustle treadmill and create a sustainable six or seven figure business, head over to Melaniechilders.com, where I've got a free resource on how to have consensual sales conversations that feel amazing for you and your clients, so you can hit the ground running. See you there. Passionistas: Where Amy and Nancy Harrington. And you're listening to the Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Kelly Mosser, to learn how to work with her and join the tigers eye community, visit KellyMosser.com. We'd like to take a moment to invite you to the third annual Power of Passionistas summit his September 21st through 23rd, 2020. The three-day virtual event is focused on authentic conversations about diversity, equity and inclusion. This unique gathering of intersectional storytellers and panelists harnesses, the power of our rich community of passionate thought leaders and activists to pose solutions to the problems plaguing women and non-binary people today. Tickets are on sale at the PassionistasProject.com. Be sure to register before this special discount rate ends. We'd like to thank our sponsors, Melanie Childer's Master Coach, Graceful Revolution, The Ossa Collective, Teas Drops, Aaron's Coffee Corner, Flourishing Over Fifty, Espanola Real Estate Team, Mermaid's Garden, Sarah Fins Coaching, Tara McCann Wellness, Espera Public Affairs and Trizcom Public Relations. Now here's more of our interview with Kelly. Passionistas: Are there some tips that you have for people that are hearing this and wanna kind of start on this journey that, that are a foundation to get started? Kelly: Absolutely. I think starting to become aware of how your body feels at different moments throughout your week, even throughout your day. So important. I find that the kind of key dynamic that I ask people to look for. Is, does this make me feel expansive and at ease, or is there some sort of contraction going on here? And if you pay a close enough attention, your body is always giving you those cues. Even if you turn on the TV and there's a show on that, you don't like, there's some part of your body that probably feels constricted or cold or tense. So just start to pay attention to how your body's feeling moment to moment throughout your day. Uh, an exercise that I love to direct people to is to actually pull up your calendar from last week. So these are now we're working with memories rather than real live real time situations, which can be a little bit easier to tune into the body for. Go back to last week and go day by day review all of the things that were on your calendar, all of your appointments, fill in how you spent your time after work. What did you do in the morning and go back and actually tune in and notice how your body feels thinking about the memory of that thing. And sometimes it's really helpful to go, oh, I'm thinking about this meeting that I had with this client and my body feels like I would not wanna do this again. If I had to do it again in an hour, I wouldn't wanna do it. There's a message there for you and then, you know, that's your opportunity to do some journaling on it, dig into it, ask yourself what about this didn't feel so aligned for me and you'll start to learn about, oh, it's because I actually don't really love connecting with people one on one I'd much rather connect in a group. This person, this particular challenge that we were working with, I feel very, I don't really feel confident in actually helping people with that kind of challenge. And it brings up a lot of stuff for me. When I think about having to do that, I don't think we stop and think a lot about, those small details to even just optimize what we already love doing. And sometimes, you know, people are in jobs that they really don't love doing and their whole week feels like a one giant contraction, one giant constriction. That's a great sign to, you know, start thinking about maybe making a change and even for people who love what they do, 99% of the time, what's feeling contracted that 1% of the time let's figure out what that is. Let's, you know, see if there's an opportunity for you to get even to a place of even greater alignment, even more ease and fulfillment. So those are, that's just a really simple, practical exercise. And I'm a huge fan of just taking time to sit in silence with yourself every day. It doesn't have to be a fancy meditation. Doesn't have to be a guided meditation. You don't have to empty your mind of thoughts. You just have to sit with yourself with no distractions and see what comes up and that's it. It can just be so simple because I think we are all moving so fast and things come up that we don't fully have the time sometimes to process, or we don't give ourselves the time to process. And then that just gets stored somewhere. So if you can just give all those things, the opportunity to come up and come out, as often as you can, it's not gonna feel as uncomfortable after a little while it takes a little practice, but the discomfort is good. Passionistas: So we were introduced to you at a recent MobCon mini event from Mob Nation and you gave an amazing speech about the history of money and how it relates to your self-worth. And we just thought that that was such a great speech and really mind opening. So could you just like give us a little mini condensed version of that and tell us just the basic philosophy behind what you were saying there. Kelly: Absolutely. So I struggled a lot with this concept of money. When I was starting my own business, I always felt like I was charging too much, even when I was charging $20 for a session, which that was the case at one point. It always felt like money was this very charged conversation and I realized that it's because my self-worth was so deeply connected to my concept, my understanding of money. So I decided to look into the history of money. I was like, why does this thing have such a hold over me? I'm sure it has a hold over other people too, I'm sure, you know, money is the driver of so many decisions that we make. And as I was researching the history of money, it kind of hit me that money is a manmade invention. It's a human construct. Some guy decided, you know what I think we need some sort of money system because the barter system is no longer working at scale, so we need some kind of money system. And for me to just realize that money is a manmade invention and it's not, I think sometimes we, especially if you are familiar with spiritual conversations about money or if you're in sort of tapped into the spiritual community on social media. There's a lot of conversation around money in a way that almost makes it sound like money is like love from the divine or money is confirmation that you are a good person or that you're doing something right. Which is so different to, I know how a lot of older kind of religious dogma talks about money in the complete opposite way. So it's kind of like we're ping, ponging back and forth between money is either the worst thing in the world, or it's the best thing in the world. And, but either way, it's directly tied to this, your morality to who you are as a person. And that just wasn't working for me, so to be able to kind of step out of that conversation and realize that money is just a man-made construct that's moving through a man-made system and humans are imperfect. Humans are imperfect. How could I not be worthy of something that has no inherent value of its own, money does not have in any inherent value. It's only valuable because as a collective, maybe it's not green is valuable and therefore I'm going to put stock in it and work in exchange for it and buy things with it. But money like the actual paper. Has no inherent value. And we used to humans used to trade seashells and cattle and tobacco as commodities, like in exchange of money. And I was just thinking to myself, would I feel this stressed out about money? If it was cattle that we were talking about? No, I wouldn't. So why do I allow it to be such a stressful thing for me now? So, kind of just stepping out of that deep enmesh between my self-worth and money. And just saying money is just a system. It's just a thing that exists made by humans perpetuated by humans. It could not exist tomorrow, but we'd all still be here. How could my self-worth be wrapped up in something like that? And it allowed me to just have a much more kind of experimental relationship with money. It allowed me to really drain the emotion out of my experience out of my relationship with money. And then I felt much more comfortable with it. I just, you know, I decided that my self-worth is constant. No matter how much money I make one month to the next, as entrepreneurs, we're like so focused on monthly revenue and it it's so exhausting and I just don't think that's how it needs to be. So if anyone is listening to this and they're, I'd invite you to think about how emotional is your relationship to money. If it is an emotional thing for you, can you think of it more as just this manmade thing that was invented out of necessity? Your self-worth has nothing to do with it, if money stopped existing tomorrow, you would still be infinitely worthy because you're a human being. How could you not be worthy of something that has again, no inherent value of its own. It's just green paper floating around. So hopefully that, you know, can help somebody who has an emotionally charged relationship with money to just, just experiment thinking about it that way and see if it works for you. If it doesn't by all means, let it go. But it really helped me, especially as someone who's like, this is my job now to make my own money. I don't get a, a paycheck from an employer anymore. So yeah, it's. Been a really interesting reframe for me. Passionistas: So what advice would you have for a woman who like you was trying to figure out how to price their product or service and they just don't know how to do it. Kelly: I think that people put a lot of stock into getting it right the first time. There's a lot of pride around, I want to put something out there and I want it to sell the first time, the way I want it to. And what I would recommend is just, you have to remember that the laws of supply and demand are real. And while you are worth your value as a human being is infinite, what you might be offering to someone is actually subject to the laws of supply and demand. So until you know what the demand for your, good or service is you don't really know how to price it. And I, someone just, someone said this to me once when I was agonizing over, I think it was a, like some kind of coaching package that I was offering. I was like, should it be this number or this number? And they were like, it's a hundred dollars different. How do you, you don't know? You just have to try one. And I was like, oh, I just have to try one and see if this is the price that resonates with the person that I, want to work with who I can help, but I think we, we make it about us. We make our prices about us and we say, we talk about knowing our worth, your worth is infinite. There it is not subject to laws of supply and demand. Your there's no price you could put on anything that you do that would accurately encompass how worthy you are. But I think when we are enmeshed with our pricing and our self-worth and know your worth, and what's my. all of that becomes very murky and muddy. So my advice is find a price that seems to be appropriate. Make sure it feels good in your body when you're talking about it. It takes a little practice sometimes to get used to saying, this is what my price is, but just practice. It just takes practice and then bring it to the marketplace. Just the same way that any company like Coca-Cola brings a new product to the marketplace. They don't know how it's gonna sell. You have to see, you have to experiment. A big, big thing that I stress with my clients is to have a mindset of experimentation. I always like to say, be the chief scientist, treat your business like a science experiment and not a soap opera, because if you treat it like a soap opera, every little decision that you make is going to have an impact on your self-worth and it's gonna bring you down. So how can you just be more of like an inventor, like a scientist who just says, I'm gonna try this. And I'm really curious to see what happens here. That's all you can do. And if you know, you sell out, then maybe your price is too low. If you don't sell any, maybe your price is a little too high. Again, it has nothing to do with you. It has to do with how much, how well people know you, how well you're communicating the value of what you do. There's so many different layers that go into it that I just hate to see people get so caught up in pricing when I would love to. And I think it makes them slow down and take too much time and they think too much about it. And it leads to a lot of self-doubt where my advice is, just get out there with a price and see what happens. And if it's not the right price, you can change it. That's the beauty of having your own business. it's, it's it really is so much more is within your control than you realize. Passionistas: So how can people work with you? Kelly: A few different ways. So I do offer that kind of deep dive strategy consulting for people who are like, I, my business just feels like a mess and I just want it to feel easier and simpler. So I do offer that kind of strategy consulting service for service based businesses. I do have someone on my team who is a retail expert, so she supports retail businesses and product-based businesses with their strategy. And then I also offer kind of ongoing support from a coaching perspective. So that's implementing your strategy. That's what to do when you come up against resistance. That's what to do when an unexpected curve ball gets thrown your way. So there is kind of that those two different pieces and lots of people do choose just one or the other. And a lot of people do choose both. I also have an amazing free membership that used to not be free. And it is just as of last month free and I'm so happy to offer it for free called my tigers eye community, which is like the ultimate one stop shop for inner work. So it's guided meditations, it's amazing live and on-demand workshops led by experts, not just me daily journal prompts. It's, it's just a really good place to start if you're like, I'm curious about inner work, but it feels overwhelming and YouTube is so scary and I'm not gonna spend time searching for things on there. It's a totally free resource, no strings attached free forever. Passionistas: Speaking of doing multiple things, what inspired you to start your podcast? Kelly: I felt very, so I've been a big Instagram girl for the last four years or so. And I started to feel very, like, not so great on Instagram sometimes. Like I could, I only had people's attention for like five seconds and I couldn't fully express what I wanted to say. I'm verbose, as you can tell from this chat, I won't learn from this conversation. I don't shut up. And I feel like I had more to say, and I wanted to provide a deeper level of value for people without them having to pay me anything. Because I feel like Instagram is just a little bit, I don't know. It's just like, it's like the, the bargain version. It's just a little bit cheap sometimes you can only get so much across, but I think there's something so magical, magical about being with people when they're on their dog walks and like being with people when they're commuting to pick up their kids. Like that is so exciting to me and I think that you can just create a better relationship with [00:31:00] people and you can give them more. And so that was why I'm so excited about the podcast world. And I, I love it so far. It feels so fun. Passionistas: So describe your show for people. Kelly: Sure. So my show is called the aligned success show and it is a show that helps entrepreneurs master the magical alchemy between spirituality, neuroscience, and strategy. So we talk about all those different things. Sometimes we talk about all three in one episode, sometimes we go, this episode's really focused on the spiritual. This episode's really focused on the brain. This episode is really focused on strategy and I've had a lot of people tell me that I'm not an entrepreneur, but I really like this podcast anyway. So the strategy piece, is definitely more general. I would say that it applies to more people than just entrepreneurs. There's a lot of good value in there about just finding more alignment in your life, learning how to coach yourself through different kinds of challenges. So, yeah, so it's definitely super valuable for entrepreneurs, but valuable for people who are not entrepreneurs as well.[00:32:00] Passionistas: What's your dream for women? Kelly: Oh my gosh. My dream for women is that we all wake up in a world that where we all get to live lives, that we actually chose for ourselves and we didn't choose them because our parents told us we had to, or because our partners think that we should, or that society told us that we needed to. That would be my dream to just live in a world full of women who really had chosen what their life looks like. Passionistas: Thanks for listening to the Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Kelly Mosser. To learn how to work with her and join the Tigers Eye Community, vVisit KellyMosser.com. Please visit the PassionistasProject.com to learn more about our podcast and subscription box filled with products made by women owned businesses and female artisans to inspire you to follow your Passions. Double your first box when you sign up for a one-year subscription. Remember to get your tickets to the third annual virtual power of Passionistas summit from September 21st through 23rd, 2022. Tickets are on sale now at the PassionistasProject.com. And subscribe to the Passionistas Project Podcast, so you don't miss any of our upcoming inspiring guests. Until next time, stay well and stay passionate.  

In this week's episode of the Gay City News podcast “Thank You For Coming Out,” creator and host Dubbs Weinblatt (they/ them) welcomes Anita … Read More

Tonight we picked up with Hypothesis 15. The focus has been on detachment from the things of this world and the state of exile in which the monks lived. The temptation after leaving all for God is always to be drawn back to the things of the world. These things that draw us are not  necessarily evil or sinful but can be quite benign or even very good. Yet even that which is good can be contrary to the will of God. Our responsibility is to embrace His will and to walk the path of salvation that He has set before us and to remain ever faithful to it. Even the love and affection for other that is genuinely good can be something that we make our god. Yet there is one thing necessary - Christ and doing His will. He is the origin and fulfillment of every person's deepest yearning. He alone can fulfill that longing for love deep within our hearts. We will rationalize or we will follow the subtle deceptions of the Evil One to take any or every path that leads away from God. Therefore we must be ever vigilant and unceasing in our prayer. Ego will always move to the forefront. We will place the self at the center of the universe and convince ourselves that what intellect, reason, or emotion tells us is truth. Thus we must be discriminating of what goes on within and foster a kind of stability that allows us to listen to God and subordinate all things to him. This is true whether one lives in the desert or in the heart of the busiest city. --- Text of chat during the group: 00:08:44 Rachel: ….cricket....   00:09:43 Rachel: My paint wont dry here in Cali   00:11:45 Rachel: I will be arriving fashionably late to a party because there is no way I am missing the Evergetinos.

Dr. Kelly Bender is a California licensed Naturopathic Medical Doctor and she joined Lesley today to talk about moving to a new city, starting a business when you didn't know anyone, and listening with curiosity. Then they move on to being your own health advocate, taking stock of how you're feeling and how to take care of yourself.If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co .And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.In this episode you will learn about:Moving to a new cityStarting a businessBeing your own health advocateKnowing when things are offGoing to meetups in a new cityListening and being curiousPut things in your physical Environment that make you feel that happiness or desired stateFind the people in the room who are not like youShare your story with other people - celebrate where you've come from, your vulnerability allows others to see what's possibleTake stock of how you're feeling and see where there could be potential improvementA big part of health is your mental/emotional healthGet your body physically feeling like you want it to feelEpisode References/Links:Dr Kelly Bender's IGThe Four Tendencies by Gretchen RubinSapiens by Yuval Noah HarariBelieve It by Jamie Kern LimaPure Vitality Rejuvenation Center's websiteGuest Bio:Dr. Bender is a California licensed Naturopathic Medical Doctor. As a graduate of Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine, Dr. Bender is trained as an expert in natural medicine. After graduating summa cum laude with a Bachelor of Science in Pharmacology & Toxicology from the University at Buffalo and top of her class in medical school, she has continued her training in cutting edge therapies. Ketamine assisted therapy, regenerative medicine, bio-identical hormone replacement therapy and peptide therapy have been important additions to her practice to truly help individuals heal. She is passionate about helping individuals optimize their health so they can live their lives to the fullest. Dr. Bender believes it is important to understand the entire person in order to facilitate healing and offers each patient an individualized treatment plan to enhance their vitality. Dr. Bender enjoys teaching others, whether it be her patients or students at various medical schools. While she misses the fall weather back home in New York, she is happy to make Los Angeles her home.If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.ResourcesWatch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube!Lesley Logan websiteBe It Till You See It PodcastOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley LoganOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTubeProfitable PilatesSocial MediaInstagramFacebookTik TokLinkedIn Episode Transcript:Lesley Logan  Hey! Hey you, welcome back to the Be It Till You See It. I am in love with this podcast and I'm in love with all of your takeaways and just the DMs we're getting and the questions you're sending us. It is incredibly, it's an incredible honor but also just so much fun for me and for Brad to bring news to you every single week. Today's guest is Dr. Kelly Bender. Not only is she a dear friend of mine, but she is a woman who definitely saved my life, my health. And I wanted to bring her in because she is a wealth of knowledge. And she has an incredible Be It Till You See It story. So for those of you who have moved to a new place, or you feel like you're new in something, you don't know what you're doing, I definitely want you to listen to the parts where she talks about being new in a city and starting a business without any information because they don't teach you that in school, and, and more. And then for those of you who are like not thinking about starting a business, there's still so much information in here on being an advocate for yourself and knowing when things are off. And so I really just think you're gonna find so many different gemstones no matter where you are in your life right now. So please do me a huge favor when this is all over, check out Dr. Kelly Bender on Instagram. And if you have any takeaways screenshot this and share it and tag us both so that we can see that it really does help us get this show out and and you know, we get to have more fun with you and with all the listeners. So thank you and right after this message is Dr. Kelly Bender.Lesley Logan  Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast, where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guest will bring Bold, Executable, Intrinsic and Targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started.Lesley Logan  Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Kelly Bender, and everyone who is listening. I'm so excited for you to meet this woman. I mean, you're gonna meet her in your ears. But if you're watching this on YouTube, you get to see your face. Y'all, this woman came into my life at a time when I needed her the most. And then she ended up coming on a retreat, so we got to know each other really well. But I happen to be in search of B12 shots. And this is where there's divine appointments and serendipity. I had heard about a space at about a mile from where I lived from an old client and then literally the old client they were going out for dinner and we ran into Dr. Bender and it became this wonderful friendship and I have her here because not only does she have a great Be It story, but she also has some great tips on like, reasons why maybe we just don't feel like being it all the time. So, Dr. Kelly Bender can you share with everyone, who you are, what you're up to all the things?Kelly Bender  Yeah, thank you so much for having me, Lesley, I'm really excited to be here. I love our conversations and I'm really excited that we get to record our conversations and other people get to hear what we talk about. (Lesley: Oh, I know ...) I think that it's so much fun.Lesley Logan  This is like a secret way for me to know more information. I'm just ... (Lesley laughs)Kelly Bender  Exactly. I'm so yeah, I am a California licensed naturopathic medical doctor, which means we try to look at the whole person and find out really what's going on with people. Instead of just giving medications or other things, we really do a lot of detective work to see if we can figure out why people are not feeling their best. My practice is here in Brentwood, Los Angeles, California, we do a lot of different types of therapies and modalities to try to pe... to get people to be really healthy and happy and vital. We try to have your body heal itself. And so I'm really passionate about helping people understand their bodies. And really, you know, not just do something because somebody told you to do it. I really want people to understand what's going on so they can make their own decision of, "Yeah, I want to take this thing today. I want to eat this way today because I know how it's going to make me feel."Lesley Logan  I love that that's probably another reason why we're friends. It's like the same way that I teach Pilates is I want people to be autonomous and I want them to know why they're doing an exercise and I want them to feel confident in choosing not to do that exercise to do something else and so I think that's really cool. There are very few people in the medical industry like you who are trying to help people be more educated and make a decision and almost it's almost like you're trying to teach them to be an advocate for themselves in their process.Kelly Bender  100%. Being an advocate and and you know your body much better than I do. Right? I've got the schooling, I've got the education. And so you know, hopefully I can be a guide. But at the end of the day, you're not going to call me every day and say, I mean, you could, you could definitely call me every day and say, "Hey, I'm feeling a little tired today. I'm feeling a little sore today, what do I do?" but that's not empowering for anybody. And that gets really, really expensive if you're going to do that. (Lesley laughs) So I would... I mean, "Hey, if you want to do that, I'm, I'm here. I'm happy to." But but I really want to empower people to understand and be intuitive with their body so that they can have an arsenal of all the different things and decide when they need to use them.Lesley Logan  Yeah, well, and also, I mean, expensive too and almost overwhelming. Like, you might, you might think this is really nice. And you want to check in with your, with your doctor every day. But then like, you might have that rebellion. But it's like if you know, the four tendencies, it's an obliger-rebellion, when like, you're just like, "I'm over this." And so I think, (Kelly: Right) so much better to have the tools to do your own journaling, doing your own tracking, and then do check ins and tweaks when you feel like something is off. And so while it I wasn't off, and then I want to get into how you got started. How, like, what is the best way to give people the confidence or just feel okay with sometimes you might think something's off and then we are we tend to talk ourselves out of it, we tend to like excuse that off feeling like, "Oh, I just ate something bad" or "Oh, I just had a bad night's sleep" or, you know what I mean? Like, when is it that something is off? And when is it that we are? I don't know if I if you understand the question, I'm saying, but do you I mean?Kelly Bender  I do. Yeah, as humans. Okay, so there's this old adage of boiling a frog, right? So how do you boil a frog, if you put a frog in hot water, it will jump out. But if you put it in cold water, and you slowly turn up the temperature, it will just become complacent and say, "Oh, this is warm, this is warm, this is warm" to the point where it's boiling. And as humans, we we do that, right? We are adaptable, that's one of the strengths that we have as a species is we are really highly adaptable. And so oftentimes, you know, it's a slow, slippery slope to "Oh, I had, you know, I had some gas one day, but you know, it's just because I ate a lot of vegetables." And then, you know, you have diarrhea for a few days that "Oh, you know, it's because I was stressed," and then you've constipation for a few days. And it's, "Oh, it's because I was traveling." And then before you know it, it's six months down the down the line, and you haven't had a normal bowel movement for six months. Right? And so I think there is this fine line, and maybe it's not so fine. But there's definitely a line between being overly conscientious and overly anxious about our health where, yeah, you know, we all have days where we're a little ga... more gassy, we all have days, where, you know, things are a little bit more sluggish, or we're a little more tired. So just keeping track of it. And more than anything, if you can, if you can kind of get in touch with your body. I think a lot of times we're just show disconnected, we're still in our brain, right? And so you're thinking, you know, we go on WebMD, and you're thinking and it's all up here, right? It's like, "Oh, man," you know, fatigue and, and, you know, constipation and acid reflux, and you go and you're thinking about all the things that could be wrong. (Lesley: Right) More so I would say, sit with yourself, as opposed to looking externally, sit with yourself and say, "Okay, is this a feeling that I've had in the past? Did that feeling go away on it's own?" You know, "Is it just a temporary one day thing?" You know, "Does this feel abnormal to me," right? And so if it's a day or two, and it goes away, probably, you know, nothing to worry about. But if it's a day or two every week, then I would say, you know, track it a little bit. And if they're consistent, then something to pay attention to, but more than that, like really sit with your body and say, "Does this make sense? Why this is happening?" Oh, every time I eat dairy, I have friends who are lactose intolerant, and they still eat dairy all the time. And then ...Lesley Logan  ... remember to do that and I'm like, "You can't eat it. That's like that's why you feel the way you feel." (Lesley laughs)Kelly Bender  Right? Right. That's the way you feel the way that you feel. And so you know, and then they get confused because they're like, "Oh, well, I eat dairy, dairy is in everything" and then their stomach is just never good, good. (Lesley: Yeah.) And then and then something else is happening like they have dysbiosis or they have a food sensitivity. You know, stress can also impact your digestion, and so they get confused between, "Oh, I never feel good because I'm always eating dairy" versus something else is going on. So it kind of masks that symptom. So, in general, if you're electing to do something that makes you feel not as well, I would take a break from that every once in a while to let that go away and see really how you feel. Same thing with like drinking alcohol.Lesley Logan  That's a great, that's actually really something anyone can do. You're not it's not like we're saying, do an elimination diet, it's like, the thing that makes you not feel so good, stop doing it and to see like what your baseline is, and, and you know, and what, and then you can be really in tune. And I just think, what I love that the common thread there is like, how are you feeling and what's normal for you. And it makes sense, because there really is no one size fits all what I love so much about interviewing different, amazing people like yourself is every time I ask them at the end, we'll and we'll ask you later, like, what are your steps to be in it, no one is repeating the same thing. So like, we're all so different. (Kelly: Yeah) And that means our health is going to be very unique. And so what feels normal to you and is going to be different, I want to take a step back to you starting this practice, because it's not easy to start any business. And if you you don't have like this, like bank account that's just rolling you through. It's very scary, and not only to do sort a new practice. But it's also very unique practice, because it's not something that you see everywhere. But you also started in a new city. And so I think a lot of people listening might be afraid to start something new and that they have the excuse. Well, "I'm new here. I don't know anyone," like I just really want them to hear your story. So, how did you get your practice going?Kelly Bender  Yeah, so um, I really believe in, you were talking about like, you know, divine (Lesley: appointments) interventions or divine appointments. And, you know, I'm I'm a planner, I am a I am a builder, I'm a designer. And throughout medical school for four years, I was designing what I thought was going to be my life, my practice, what I was going to do, and I will tell you right now, none of it happened that way. (Lesley laughs) 0%, 0%, and I'm so glad, I am so glad that it happened the way that it happened. And it turned out even better than I planned. Right? So, medical school - shocker - you don't learn how to run a business (Lesley: No) in medical school. Right?Lesley Logan  No. So, why teachers don't either fitness instructors or either lawyers, either. I'm like, "I don't even know (Kelly: No) what people are going to school for." Because they don't actually why they can't be, it's why a lot of people aren't successful in those things. And it's, or they have imposter syndrome, because how you don't know what you don't know.Kelly Bender  You don't know what you don't know. And and you know, enough in medical school to to be scared. Because you know, when medicine there's a lot of liability, right? There's a lot of rules of what you can and cannot do. So so go back to 2013, I originally wanted to work for a nonprofit. I started a nonprofit when I was in medical school. We did free care for people like low income people in the States. And we also have clinics in Mexico, Haiti and Thailand. And so (Lesley: Cool) I that's what I, yeah, so that's what I thought I was going to do my whole four years of medical school, that was the plan. And then I realized in my fourth year how much debt I was going to have and how much I needed to pay every month to be able to pay that off. And working for a nonprofit was not a good option at that point. So, I quickly pivoted and decided to move to LA, because why not? My brother lived here and I had come out to visit. I'm originally from New York. And so I knew that I wanted to try something different. I knew I didn't want to go back to the cold weather. And I figured I'll give it a try. If I don't like it, I can always move again. So, so I moved out to California, I moved out to Los Angeles without really knowing anyone, anyone and decided to start a business. So I found a little office space to rent and I read a lot of books and I read a lot of blogs and I watched a lot of YouTube videos on how to set up a corporation and I was sitting in this little bedroom that I rented out in a house with this this older lady and I remember like sitting on my bed, filling out the fictitious business paperwork and feeling anxious. Am I doing this right? I don't have money to pay for a lawyer. You know, (Lesely: Oh) if I do this wrong, what's going to happen?Lesley Logan  I um completely understand, and I love the visual of you sitting in a little office just like watching YouTube videos on how to do this. Because that's, I mean, like, a lot of people might be like, "I want to get started," honestly, that's what we that's what everyone gets started and everyone is like, "Am I doing this right? I don't know, I can't afford a lawyer to look this over." Sure, hope so I remember I got a letter in the mail from LA. They're like, "We can see you're doing business here. So here's what you owe us in taxes." I was like, "Oh, well, thanks for letting me know. Not a problem. Here's a check." I was like, "Thank God, they did ..." So they don't arrest you, but they will (Kelly: Yeah) send you a bill. (Lesley laughs)Kelly Bender  Right. And usually, there's some late fees associated (Lesley: Yeah) (Lesley laughs) with, you know, much cheaper than (Lesley: My lawyer, yeah) otherwise, that could turn out much cheaper than a lawyer, much cheaper than a lawyer. Yeah, it's like, "Okay, great. I'll..." And you know, most places where people open businesses, they want you to be successful, right? You're, you're part of the economy, you're driving, you know, you're driving the economy. So they want to get their money because their business too, but usually, they'll they'll work with you. And they'll let you know, like, "Hey, this is how you were supposed to do it. You're delinquent, you have to pay us some extra money. But like, here's how to do it right." And so, yeah, when I first got to LA, man, what it is like, what a different world from the East Coast where I grew up from Arizona, which is where I did my medical school. So I came out here and knew almost no one, set up my business, didn't know what I was doing from a business standpoint, you know, had to figure it out pretty much on my own. I didn't have business mentors, I didn't grow up around people who owned their own businesses. It was not part of my, my culture, it was not part of anything I'd ever seen done before. And so honestly, one of the things that I did that was the most helpful was I started going to meetups, five or six nights a week, when I first moved to LA, this was, you know, pre COVID, obviously. So ...Lesley Logan  Yeah, something went possible, but I (Kelly: Yeah) so I love this part of you, getting out there, getting to know, getting to get your business started was like getting just going to places to, just finding places you could immerse yourself, (Kelly: Yeah) which is super scary. So, what did you tell yourself before you walk into these rooms?Kelly Bender  It's so interesting. So, I specifically went to meetups that were not medical related. So most of the people I knew who were doctors, they went to all these medical ones to network with other medical professionals, there was like, first of all, I want to friends who are not doctors. Second of all, I like you're not going to become my patients, your doctors. And third, I actually went to a lot of one of them that were like business oriented, because I was like, "I need friends or people who are in business to help me learn how to do this." And so, you know, I would I would psych myself up. And I this is not a thing that I love to do. So I really, you know, there was a lot of anxiety before everyone, but I was like, you know, what's the worst that can happen? That's what I would tell myself, "What's the worst that can happen? You're going to go, you're going to meet some interesting people. And if you don't like them, you never have to see them again." So that's the nice thing about meetups is everybody is there to network. So different than going to a bar or something like that, like, everyone knows that's the deal. So you go up and you tell your story, and you hand out business cards. Um ...Lesley Logan  How did you (Kelly: and it was ...) introduce yourself? Because I feel like this is like where I could ultimate Be It moment could be because you didn't have like a thriving practice at this point yet you were filling (Kelly: I know) out forms. So, how, what was the introduction that you gave?Kelly Bender  Yeah, so most of the time, like I said, I was the only doctor there. I remember really specifically going to these tech startups, because I love technology. And I was like, "Oh, these people don't know anything about health." They're, you know, a bunch of guys most of the time. And I know this is a stereotype but it's true. A bunch of men in a room eating like cheetos and drinking soda, right? (Lesley: Yeah) And so, and now they're the people who have money, right? (Lesley: Yeah) Who can afford kind of like alternative care. And so I would go to these a lot of these types of meetings. And listen, that is that is the most important thing. Most people go into these situations, and they're just focused on getting other people to know what they do. Right? So everyone is talking past each other because everyone's primary goal is to download my information to you. Right? And so I just went in and I listened and I was curious. Those I think are the two big things for me was was listening and being curious. And then I would say, "Oh, that's you know, that's really interesting. You do X, Y or Z. Have you ever considered this thing over here?" And I would just ask really interesting questions about them or their work. And then people got interested in me. Right? Then they would say, "Oh my gosh, that's such a great question. No one's ever asked me that question before. What do you do? Are you a CEO? Are you a venture capitalist? What do you do?" And I would just sit there and say, "I'm a doctor." Mind blown! (Lesley laughs) Every single one of them, they were like, "Whoa, okay, like, tell me about what you ..." and then and then they were really engaged. Right? ... that that was the way ...Lesley Logan  This is so cool. I hope you're all hearing this. This is if you have anxiety in rooms, if you are wearing an introvert flag, if you are wearing the shy flag, like here, she didn't, she actually went and listened, which is some, it's actually, it's not actually easier to do, but it's definitely less anxiety producing and then you got curious. And then and then because of that, they're super intrigued by you, which is like the best thing and building relationships. And so ... (Kelly: Totally) how so how many meetups did you go to? Like, how many? Or do you still go to them.Kelly Bender  So, I stopped probably after about a year and a half, or maybe about a year, I was going to no lie five or six a week, and a lot of them are the same. So, I would go you know, every month or so and kind of keep up with some of the same people. And they you know, would become patient or they would become friends. A lot of the friends that I have here in LA are from these, these meetups, you know from eight, nine years ago. And so it helped me build a build a network, it helped me build friends. And, and it helped me build my business acumen. I consult so part of, you know, I have my medical practice, but I also do a lot of consulting with businesses from the medical side. So, I will be the medical expert, if somebody wants to start any sort of medical type business. And I also consult with doctors and clinics, in how to set up their business and set up their operations. So, I have become kind of this bridge.Lesley Logan  Yeah, you also (Kelly: between the two) have, it's like the ultimate Be It, like you were acting as if, like so you're doing all the things to start a business, then you (Kelly: Yeah) change your environment many times because you move but also like you change people you surround yourself with. And then you and now you are literally being the consultant, being the guy, being the thing to everyone else and in your industry, and then also people who want to have a part with your industry, that is so cool. It's like no stopping it. So, okay, um, this, this is really interesting. Um, I want to go to the, the the be... changing your environment up, because I do think that that is where a lot of people get stuck, you know, especially if you're like, "Well, Lesley and Kelly, I can't move. I can't move to LA, (Kelly: right) how do I do this?" So for the person who's like, not able to physically move to change their environment, what are some tips you have for them to change the surroundings that they're in to be able to not just be a bridge, but to be it and to get get connected with more people?Kelly Bender  Yeah, so I mean, there's, there's different pieces to your environment, I personally find space, like the environment that I'm in, in my home, at my office to be really important and impactful for me. So even if you're just kind of moving things around, or getting lovely plants ... from my plant ...Lesley Logan  If you're watching us on YouTube, you will have to see all the plants, I mean, her plant game is strong.Kelly Bender  It makes me so happy, honestly. So, you know, one of the big things that I tell people you know, the Be It Till You See It kind of thing is, "Putting things in your physical environment that make you feel happy, or that make you feel that desired state." So one of the things is I I've got, you know, I've got my plants, I've got my crystals, you know, I've got all of the things that kind of just make me feel like, I'm that person. And one of the biggest things that changed. I had some money mindset stuff. You know, being a doctor, being a care provider, I just like giving care for free, right? Like, I just wish I could give care for free. It makes me feel so good. But that's not a sustainable business model. (Lesley laughs) And so, so what I did when I wanted to change how I felt about money was I took two $100 bills and put it I have this little kind of seashell type thing that I put them in with with my amethyst from when I was little on top of it. And it's right over here where I do my work and I just have it there and it's like, you know, money's around, money is available if I need if I need a hundred bucks, I could grab it from there. Right? I don't, because I'm just putting it there. But physically putting the things in your space to remind you of what you want to grow and what you want to focus on, I think is really important. (Lesley: Oh, I love this.) Yeah. And then absolutely, like, changing, not changing, but adding people to your, to your environment, to your to your friends group, find the people who are not like you. That's, that's what I would say, a lot of times, we tend to, you know, be friends with the people that are very similar to us, because they reinforce our, our beliefs, and you know, it makes us feel good about ourselves. But I would, I would encourage you to find people who are very different from you, because they're going to have life experiences, and they're going to have skill sets that are complimentary to yours that you might, that you might need, or you might benefit from. I started working with very, very, very, very high net worth individuals, and completely changed how I saw life, how I, how I saw my own, like how I run my household, just seeing how people run their household, how they run staff, helped me understand what was possible.Lesley Logan  I couldn't agree more. Having moved, I've definitely, environment change, but also like building new relationships out here. And it's a little tricky in a COVID world. So really, our life in Las Vegas started April 2021. We're like, "Okay, we're going out, we're excited (Kelly: yeah) about this, we're going to meet people," but I've been really conscious of meeting people that I normally wouldn't meet, that I nor.... that I normally wouldn't have a reason to connect with. And that is does take effort, but I think it is so important. I also having been from a family that was not entrepreneurial like me, not that they weren't, there just wasn't anyone own their own business, you know, in my immediate family. For me to learn from to see that was possible, having clients in LA who do have that high net worth, you hear what they stress about, which was not what I was stressing about, you hear it like, "And there's some good and bad things, they don't do everything, you don't need to assume all of their behaviors," but you do see possibilities and I and that I'm grateful for the time I had in LA, because literally you learn that you can just create money because or that money is all around because people just find it. And they the people who are creating businesses, there aren't like going, "Oh, you pull my savings." They're like, "Oh, no, I'm raising money for this." And you're like, "You can raise like, people just give money for things?" Like ... (Lesley laughs)Kelly Bender  Right? What? (Lesley: Yeah) Yeah, I really do think, you know, one of the most important things, I think for the Be It Till You See It is sharing your story with other people. And so, you know, even if you don't think that you are where you want to be, right, sharing your story, either where you are, where you've been, is, is helpful for you to celebrate how much you've changed, or where you've come from, which I think is really important. And that vulnerability with other people, just like we're doing now it allows them to see what's possible. And then they share with you, you know, maybe I've had patients who are extremely successful in business, like, you know, financially really successful. And they, you know, they see that as a success, but they want to be more successful in let's say, their spiritual life or their mental emotional life. And, and so when I hear their stories of how they've worked through things from a business standpoint, I'm like, "Oh, that's how you do that." And then they hear my stories of how I worked through, you know, emotional things, or you know, family things or trauma that's happened. And they're like, "Oh, that's how you do that." (Lesley: Yeah) So it's, it's sharing with people who have all different experiences, I think is for me, the most important.Lesley Logan  Well, and you know, we the reason that the human humans as a species have evolved and survived is because of stories. And like if you read the book Sapiens, it's like this whole the ability to storyteller is how we survive tigers and holes. And then also we can share things. We can keep talking for hours, but I have to ask this one question before (Kelly: Yeah) we take a break. I want to because I'm sure people are going, "Okay." But we got this doctor on the show. Is there anything that we can be doing, supplements anything I know that you're we can't just prescribe things so we're not prescribing anything (Kelly: Yeah) but are there are there tips for people that they might want to pay attention to, that might be holding them back health wise from be it till they see it.Kelly Bender  Yeah, that's a that's a great question. So again, I would say, you know, take stock of how you're feeling and see, you know, where you think there could be some potential improvements, I would say a big, a big part of health is your mental emotional health. And especially with being it until you see it, you want to make sure you're in a really good mind state, right? They talk about like, these flow states, which flow state is basically like alpha brainwaves, it's actually how your brain is functioning. And so you know, doing meditation or journaling or breath work or something to physically get your body into that flow state. You know, get your body physically feeling like you want it to feel, even if you're like, "You know, I feel really good today," or getting up in the morning and doing a dance party and that, you know, I have so much energy, even on the days you don't have energy, right? It's okay, if you don't have energy, you don't have to push yourself or you know, pretend that you're some way but, but if you're like, "Okay, I'm gonna get up and I'm gonna, I'm gonna move my body and I'm gonna get into the mind state of, you know, I'm energized, I'm, I'm feeling strong," that will help your brain get into the, get into that loop or that pattern of, "I'm feeling good, I have energy," you know ...Lesley Logan  I love that it just kind of goes back to like just getting to know yourself and then also like, an even on the good days practicing it and not just the days that we need it like, that's, (Kelly: Yeah) that's the trick. (Lesley laughs)Kelly Bender  Yeah, and also so like smiling, even if you don't want to smile, right? Just our body remembers these cues. And so just smiling can actually change your your brain chemistry. So if you're not feeling really good, just go look in the mirror, and smile and work on gratitude and let that sink in. And that will actually change your biochemistry that will actually change your neuro chemistry. So, you know ...Lesley Logan  You know what I love about all this, none of it is taking anything like in, it is all things so you have the power of doing all of them are free things. All of them are ways to be in the state that you really are trying to be in all the time and so thank you for that. That's I love being surprised but also you know, it made me think of this one thing. Jamie Kern Lima's book "Believe It," she gave a tip of like giving people what you need. So, if you're needing like (Kelly: Yeah) someone to see you, make sure you look at people in the eye and smile at them and see them (Kelly: Yeah) so they're gonna do ... they're gonna see how and they're gonna smile right back, you know, or if you're (Kelly: Absolutely) if you're needing people to love you, give people love and you just this amazing reciprocity thing. So all right, Dr. Kelly Bender, where can people find you? How can they follow you? Become your friend, stalk you a little bit? Where do you hang out?Kelly Bender  Um, Kreation Cafe in Los Angeles. (Lesley laughs) I'm most most of the time you can probably find me there.Lesley Logan  Do you get the pumpkin bread?Kelly Bender  No, it has eggs in it.Lesley Logan  Oh, I don't think so, well, I get it's vegan. Check it out ...Kelly Bender  Well, I have to look at it. Okay, I have to get the vegan one ...Lesley Logan  Check it out because I get a vegan one because I can't do the eggs either. I get a vegan (Kelly: I know) and they have a paleo bread as well that (Kelly: Yeah) is egg free. So anyways,Kelly Bender  They they have a vegan gluten free brownie. (Lesley: Oh) It's the best thing ...Lesley Logan  With CBD in it by the way.Kelly Bender  They do have on the CBD. I don't get the one with CBD. (Lesley: Okay) But it is it is the best thing ever ... So ...Lesley Logan  It is like ... that they did ... it's really hard to do vegan gluten free brownies. (Kelly: I know) And they did a great job because it doesn't just crumble all over you. It's moist. It's gooey. (Kelly: Yeah) Anyways, they did not sponsor this podcast, but every time (Kelly laughs) I go to LA, I do go to Kreation and stock up and when my husband sees it in my purse, he just laughs (Lesley laughs)Kelly Bender  Yeah. Nailed it. So yes, most most days you'll probably find me there for some one of the one of my meals. But my clinic is in Brentwood, Los Angeles. It's called Pure Vitality Rejuvenation Center. The website is www.purevitalitycenter.com. So you can go and check us out on the website. We also have Instagram, which have been doing some more Instagram lives. I think I'm going to try and do an Instagram live every day for a week. (Lesley: Oh so fun.) Even if it's just like two or three minutes because Instagram keeps updating and every time I go to save the live to my role. Something else is different that I can't figure out how to do it. So I think I just need to you talk about you know (Lesley: Be It Till You See It ... I love it) Be It Till You See It ... I'm gonna be this Instagram, awesome person, and I'm gonna practice and practice and practice. And then hopefully by the end of the week, I'll actually be a professional at it.Lesley Logan  I love it. Yeah, I just have to say this, I have three Instagram handles, right and which is annoying. And here's what I hate the most is when one of them updates, but the other two don't. So currently on the @be_it_pod Instagram, where how I share my story is very different than how I did on the other two. And I'm like, "Alright, y'all, this is ..." (Kelly: no) I'm a I'm a native ada... a tech adapter, right? I am attack native, elder millennial (Kelly: yeah) right here, you (Kelly: yeah) can't give it to me, change them all at the same time. (Lesley laughs)Kelly Bender  Right, or just don't change them. I honestly just be two and a half minutes yesterday when I started my Instagram live, to figure out how to do it. So anyway, um, you can follow me on Instagram at @purelyvital p u r e l y v i t a l. I think I'm going to try to do that the next week or so. We'll see technically, you know, all the all the technical parts ...Lesley Logan  Well, we'll have all of these links in the show notes. Kreation, you'll just have to look up I don't want to actually stalking her. So okay, so I asked every guest this and you've given some great tips. So if you want to just recap them, that's totally fine. But I think it's really awesome to be inspired. But I actually think people need to take messy action because that's where clarity comes from. That's where anxiety is overridden. So bold, executable, intrinsic, targeted steps that people can do to be it till you see it, what are your favorite things to do?Kelly Bender  So the first thing is know yourself, honestly, I think for me, that's the most important piece. Also, do the things that you want to do. Don't wait till you have the money. Don't wait until you have the time. Because you'll never have what you want of both things. So you and I have our boozy spa days. And it's like, we just put it on the calendar. And we go and we do it. So do do the things that you want to do. And also, I would say be curious, be curious about yourself. Be curious about other people. Really, you know, try to look at the world through the you know, through the child's eyes, or you know, through the novice lens, because that's going to help you grow into what you want to be, but also help you see when you've become that.Lesley Logan  Oh, those are juicy. I love them. I'm ... excited. This is my favorite part of the podcast because I'm like, "Oh, I'm gonna try that one. That one's new for me." Dr. Kelly Bender, thank you for being here on the show. Everyone, thank you (Kelly: Thank you) so much for listening. Do us a humungous favor, screenshot this podcast right now. Tag pure, @purelyvital, and @be_it_pod and put your takeaway on here so that we can see what your favorite part of this show was. And do us a favor and make sure you share this with your friends that is how this podcasts gets out. That's how all podcasts get out. So if you love a podcast, you could share it every week. Don't worry, I will still love it. It will still feel fresh and new to me. So thank you so much and until next time, Be It Till You See It.Lesley Logan  That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review. And, follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcasts. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the @be_it_pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others BE IT TILL YOU SEE IT. Have an awesome day!Lesley Logan  'Be It Till You See It' is a production of 'As The Crows Fly Media'.Brad Crowell  It's written, produced, filmed and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell.Lesley Logan  Kevin and Bel at Disenyo handle all of our audio editing and some social media content.Brad Crowell  Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music. And our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.Lesley Logan  Special thanks to our designer Jaira Mandal for creating all of our visuals (which you can't see because this is a podcast) and our digital producer, Jay Pedroso for editing all the video each week so you can.Brad Crowell  And the Meridith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

 Max: Hello and welcome back to the Recruitment Hackers Podcast. I'm your host Max Armbruster and today on the show, somebody south of where I am, all the way down in Perthestow in Sydney, Miss Mrs. Kelly Van Nelson, Managing Director at Adecco Australia. Welcome to the show, Kelly.Kelly: Thank you, Max. It's great to be here today.Max: Pleasure to have you, and Kelly how do you end up as a Managing Director? I'm not gonna ask you to introduce Adecco because if you don't know Adecco, you're on the wrong podcast. because you should as number one brand in the world and well I'm sure it's got a different strength in different markets. It's pretty well-known worldwide. I couldn't think of a geography where it isn't. So, I assume that the business in Australia is also quite wide-ranging from tech to you know more office temporary staff and everything in between?Kelly: Yes, it is. We have the Adecco group and all of the brands represented in Australia which Adecco is workforce solutions, but we do have all-tech solutions and we do have talent solutions which is our placements and upscaling and rescaling too. So yeah, the full complements of the Adecco group is here on the ground, in and around Australia.Max: And Australia is in the news right now for all kinds of reasons, mainly because it's impossible to come in and out of it. Has that been we'll talk later about how that's affected your team, but from the business standpoint, is it been good or bad for business?Kelly: I would say it's been good for business, challenging absolutely, and we have to very rapidly pivot our operations and elements of the business to leverage the opportunities, but nevertheless, it's actually been good for our business for a number of reasons. We can dive into them if you like but I would say definitely positive impacts.Max: That's great to hear. I've recently had on the show someone who's taught me about having to repurpose. Half of her team to do something other than recruitment in 2020 and I hope I wasn't too traumatic for the team down under. And sounds like things are good so we'll find out what well what you can share with us there. But before we go there if you could share with me and the audience were how you ended up where you are today because you don't sound Australian so I think it must have been a long road. Kelly: It's been a long road. Twenty-seven years in the recruitment and workforce solutions based on the technology in the street. Started out in Northern England as you can probably guess from the accent. But yeah, I moved around the world in the industry, lived in South Africa, Edinburgh, London, and many years in Perth and Western Australia in my early years of my career with the Adecco Group in the technology brand which is Modis. And two and a half years I go I moved to Sydney with the family and moved into the Managing Director role of Adecco. So yeah, been around a little while and seen a hugely changing industry that we work in which is actually exciting, no two days are ever the same. Max: Yeah, it attracts a good bunch of people who end up in recruitment. People who are empathetic and hardworking generally, but empathetic and hardworking may not be enough anymore. There's there are new skills required to survive in this dog fight. Can you elaborate on how you know those new changes have affected the composition of your team and you know what are people that have done well and those who have lagged behind?Kelly: Yeah, we definitely see it man, not just in our own business but with our own customer base for different sets of core skill sets. Resilience is the one we're always seeking and with that comes the ability to adapt and change and embrace change. And the resilience is not just from COVID but from the changing sort of industry that we work in and the rapid scaling of technology and the different demands of you know the global economy. So for me, resilience is the number one thing I look for when I when we are interviewing for new personnel to build a high-performing team. And when we have people in the business, the most successful recruiters and broader team members that I see who really have a good long career and good long tenure and great success would be the ones who have this aptitude for lifelong learning. Always looking to gain new skills, always looking at what's next not what's happening today, and being very very open to self-investment in their own skillset and you know personal capability in achieving personal best. So yeah, I would say having a huge aptitude for upscaling, rescaling, and lifelong learning is really critical right now. Max: And now to be able to assess resiliency in the course of a couple of interviews is sounds like mission impossible. I can't even think of a psychometric or competent assessment task that would get you there either. Intuition, career history, what are some of the good data points you can base those decisions on?Kelly: Yeah, definitely I probe a lot and run scenarios even with people that we're interviewing who don't come from the industry or don't bring a huge amount of experience, or they might be a graduate friend or for instance in early career. I tend to put some scenarios on the table around what has been a challenging circumstance that you've faced and how have you overcome an obstacle. And you know just different types of people like to self-manage and yeah just really probe around those examples and you can tend to you know to find what you're looking for in individuals who have risen above obstacles and removed roadblocks. So yeah, it's definitely something I've spent a lot of time on during an interview process probing on that one. Max: Yeah.Kelly: Yeah. I think I think the recruitment industry as a whole now is asking for this whole broad range of soft skills. You know if you look before what would be the core skills of recruiters, it would be probing on ability to meet targets and ability to sell, and you know customer skills on the telephone and all of the things that go with sort of a sale skill set or you know maybe a call center skill set. Whereas now it's really about these inner skills that you know can really set you apart when the going gets tough. Max: Yeah, it's about this lifelong learning, reinventing yourself a few times, and I think I wouldn't do very well in an interview. I've had my first of of of you know conflicts and difficulties, but you know the human brain I just kind of erased it all. I don't even, once it's once the when the challenge has been overcome I kinda tend to forget about it and pretend it never happened. That's maybe why I wouldn't do such a..I wouldn't be such a good recruiter. Maybe that's unique skill set for an entrepreneur. Kelly: You'd be surprised. We could make a recruiter of you yet I think. We could make good recruiters of most people. YeahMax: Thank you. That is a fine compliment. Great so so one change that recruiters and white-collar workers all over the world have had to take in is this hybrid work environment. Kelly: Yeah.Max: And and so I don't know how many people you managed in Australia and how big the team is but I'm sure you've had to some turnover with people who are either fed up with working from home or fed up with going to the office, one way or the other. It's very hard to please everybody. How is how do you know work around these challenges?Kelly: I think for us it's just again about being adaptable. We were very lucky in that when the first wave of the pandemic really took foothold in Australia, we were very well-positioned to rapidly move to work from home. We ran an overnight test done pretty much within 24 hours. We had moved our entire operations to virtual working and that was right across the country, which was quite extraordinary and that really enabled us to push on and do what was needed to be done with redeploying workers and helping the workforce to cope with the pandemic. It has been many workers coming out of employment or being stood down or having their hours cut back and needing to be handheld into new industries or new positions. And many candidates also needed assistance to use virtual tools, virtual interview tools, virtual application tools, onboarding tools. But our own recruiters inside Adecco were very very able to adapt literally within 24 hours. We had already been pretty good at allowing and supporting flexible working policies and embracing work from anywhere and mobility and things took quite a long time, which really bode us well in you know in what happened with the first wave of COVID. And as we progressed through some of the last you know more than a year now of the pandemic, what we've found is we've got this interesting trend where about half the workforce wants to be in the office half of the time. So, you've got this hybrid scenario emerging and the next normal continues to be this hybrid environment. Workers want to have a balance of time in the office where they can interact, they can upscale, they can learn from one another, they can you know find this team camaraderie face-to-face and have human interaction and social interaction in the workplace. Versus being highly productive if not more productive from home and you know being able to balance their home lives and you know to being able to balance the safety and the environment which we have to work in if we're going through different lockdowns. So, we see this globally, on average, globally 53 percent of workers want to spend at least you know some of their time working remotely. So, it's not really a trend anymore, it's actually a new norm this hybrid working. So, so organizations are having to adapt to this in different ways depending on the industry and the type of industry you run. But for Adecco, we're very much in a comfortable place now with being able to operate work from office work from home in varying levels of that and giving people flexibility. Max: That's that's to be expected progressive employers such as Adecco would be who'd have already spent a lot of time doing hybrid workplace. Maybe you have some customers who are less more traditional let's say, more resistant. The customer is king to a certain degree so have you kind of helped customers attract you know to change their recruitment marketing to attract workers that are more inclined towards the office? And then of course we know a lot there's plenty of offers for jobs that are fully remote. I think that the labor market is plentiful. But are you working with some employers that are you know that are still committed to having a purely office environment?Kelly: We definitely see that. We see some businesses still struggling to find their feet a little bit with what their business landscape looks like. And we also have a very large proportion of our workforce, especially in the contingent labor space that are essential work and doesn't necessarily always allow work from home for various reasons. If there is you know customer at face-to-face engagement or services needed, what we tend to do is typically treat each business with you know good listening and good understanding of what their business objectives are. And also have a good conversation around the skills shortages that we do face, and you know with no migration you know more than 70000 people only migrate into the country and unfilled a lot of the positions that we you know that we look for. And that workforce is not readily available anymore. Unemployment's at an all-time low and the talent pool list to a certain extent shrinking. So, accessibility to talent and the best talent in the market is key for any business, whether it's about small business right up to you know a large global Fortune 500. Giving your organization the chance to hire the best talent wherever they're located and bring them into your business, it really allows for diversity of your workforce into you know to really attract routine right now at a time that that's critical. If you don't, you would be, to a certain extent, left behind. So so sometimes it's a conversation around you know talent shortages and getting the best talent. You know there's a financial link to that and financial benefit to that. There are productivity gains that are proven to be really good if you can get this. And yeah, workers and our employees are commanding it right now.Max: Yeah, and in this market, I'm surprised anybody can hit their targets. What are some of their creative workarounds for you know industries where you have low unemployment, rising wages, more constraints about who can come in and who cannot. Can you illustrate some creative thinking that's going on or maybe you've reconverted people from one industry to the next in order to keep the wheels spinning? Kelly: Yeah, we definitely had exactly this scenario. So, if I can go back a year, we had whole industries that were downsizing and substantially so, for example, aviation and hospitality and retail to a certain extent, and you know sports and recreation. But entire industry is pretty much you know grounded and in parallel with that, you had many other industries experiencing extraordinary surges. So, for example, online trading of services, whether it be online buying and retail, consumer services at on the phone, or online. You know for example call centers, contact centers. You know the demand for skills second to none during the COVID coupled with healthcare changes in certain industries, you have this two-stream scenario of industries downsizing their workforce substantially and industries commanding extraordinary numbers of new jobs in different industries. So, we did a lot of work very very quickly. I'm talking in a matter of you know one to two weeks. Putting workers through very rapid upscaling and rescaling practical courses that were going to give them the tips and the techniques and the basic skills to be able to transition from one industry into another with some level of seamless you know ease. And that was enormously successful. We transitioned and redeployed a couple of thousand workers in a fortnight in the early stages of COVID by upscaling and rescaling any short-job programs and ways of working. So that was highly successful and a lot of them has remained. So, we are, still today is an organization in Adecco investing in upscaling and rescaling through our different brands, really working with candidates to best identify how we can use candidate pools smartly and sensibly to fill with skills gap even if their skills are not the perfect fit because, in the large part, they're not a perfect fit. The skills of the future and the jobs of the future are different and they're changing every day quite rapidly so. So, with that means skills of jobseekers also have to change and evolve. And our job as a recruitment firm needs to embrace that and help bridge those gaps and provide the transition from you know from one job into another or from one industry into another. That will remain and we have a big part to play as a recruitment industry to enable job seekers to find comfort and not be afraid of the future. Max: Yeah. Your inspiring story about how Adecco responded quickly to these changes makes me think. You know. You're a little bit like a financial trading company where some hedge funds really benefit from market instability. You know they're like when things are moving quickly, that's when they make money. You can think that I mean of course you it be very I don't wanna lay this in nick of Adecco as a profiteer of change you know traumatic situation but rather as an agent of change where the market will continue to change, most people will continue to look for jobs. Good year or bad year you know traumatic year. These changes needs you know need guidance. And so, you could imagine that Adecco would have I don't know I haven't looked at your I don't know if your results are publicly posted but it sounds like Adecco may have had a great year when you you put it that way. Kelly: We definitely did have a good year I think and ultimately, we have shareholders and we're publicly listed, and you have a business to run. But the reality of it is if we have last year have faced the wave of the first lockdown and sort of sat back to certain extent and accepted where we are you know good proportion of our workforce was being stood down or have you know we're having their hours reduced to absolutely no fault of our clients. You know we supply a huge number of small and medium enterprises, not just large organizations and many sectors that were impacted, we would have been in serious trouble, we would have in serious financial trouble, we would have had our own workforce impacted with not enough work to do, and it's not in our nature to sort of accept that. So, we were very very quick to look up the strategy and to pivot and to understand where the market was going short term and where the market was gonna go long term and that was incredibly difficult during COVID. But our workforce inside Adecco absolutely adapted and we moved people around internally from you know one team to another team internally. And people responded very well to that and got on with the necessary task of trying to help as many people as possible remain in work or come out of work in one job and get into the job work in another and that helped us to remain sustainable as a business, helped our workforce and our candidates, and ultimately helped our clients, even the ones that were downsizing. That helped them because they knew their workers were going to another home. And it was easier on everyone to do that, so it was actually really quite rewarding despite the pressure and the challenges of the economy and the market and you know the health crisis that everybody was facing. So yeah, we're a pretty resilient bunch in the large part in Adecco, but yeah there's business travis for sure that go without. We didn't our own workforce to have to be impacted but we didn't want our candidates and casual workforce to be impacted either and I think we did a really good job of leading the charge there. Max: Well, well done. Well done to the team and I hope of course that not every year has full of changes as last one and that we could have some more quiet time for people can settle into their industry and I'm getting some sense of stability. I have two more questions for you. One of them is about productivity and tech tools that are used by the team or that you use personally, that you would recommend. What are some productivity tips you can offer to our listeners?Kelly: I love this question and I am a big I mean I come from a technology background so I'm always keen to try and look at what tools are out in the market and technology in the market that would give us efficiency and give us advantage as well, differentiate us for our clients. If I look at some of the tools we've embraced and scaled, we are right now today we're you know embracing AI, we're embracing analytics and the data that we have is you know the power that's within that data. We're also embracing chatbots and finding ways to automate elements of the recruitment process that for many years have been manual load, very labor-intense, very cumbersome, and is often at lower on investment tasks. So, finding good ways to automate the recruitment process has been a real journey for Adecco and we are yes still advancing every day with what we're doing with our technology and tools. And that's exciting it's exciting because it doesn't displace our recruiters if we automate an element of their task and their business process. It actually enables them to focus on new work on you know where the market's going, what their customers really need, and their relationship-building, and focusing on different maturity of our solutions and what we're actually offering. So, what we find is as we brought in more tools to automate the process, the capability levels of our recruiters have improved, and we've got you know much higher-grade recruiters. I always say we have a high-performing team and that's absolutely true and we are enabling them to be that by taking away the low-hanging fruit from them through use of tools and technology. So, they embrace it. Our recruiters are not afraid of the tech. They actually will off my hands off of my bringing something new to the table which is a product that's going to help them in their day to be faster you know quicker speed to market, offering better service to their clients, helping their candidate supply and remain on our workforce you know on our workforce you know for a longer period of time. So, it's exciting. We're using many many tools in a really great way and they're here to stay. Technology has been enabling us the workplace, isn't it? It's here to stay.Max: They're lucky to have a leader that can embrace it so vividly because you know I started my company after doing a lot of recruitment myself, interviewing thousands of people over the phone, and feeling the dehumanization. You know I'm feeling my soul slipping away to know that that you know these days are for the most part gone that than now. It's much more value-added work. It's a redefinition of the role of recruiters that's happened over the last you know fifteen years which is yeah absolutely wonderful. Now my last question is about one of my favorite questions which is we all make hiring mistakes, and we try as I said we try to bury those memories. But sometimes it's good to wait a minute and remember and remember so we can draw the lessons from them. Can you walk us back through a specific hiring mistake you've made and what you know why you made that mistake and what we can learn from it?Kelly: This is a good question. I've never had this question before in my many interviews, so it's a nice first one. Maybe what I would say on this one is that if I go back, you know I've been around nearly three decades now twenty-seven years in recruitment, and one of the things we often used to do as leaders is hire multiple recruiters into the business and potentially at an average level. You know in the hope that a good proportion would step up and a good proportion would remain average, and you might have one or two strugglers that would not necessarily be the right fit and you would make that call and you would mass hire, especially in the large recruitment firms. And that works to a certain extent but it's not really great for the individuals and it's not the most rewarding way to you know build a high-performing culture in workforce. So, we definitely don't do that now. What we do now is just hold the line and very carefully wait for the right fit, the right cultural fit, never compromising cultural values or ethics. Waiting for the right fit even if it means we have an open vacancy for quite a long time and well losing productivity as a result of that because it pays off more. We've been hiring that way for the last two-three years and our everything has improved as a result. I would say our culture is better, our productivity per recruiter is better, the camaraderie has improved, and you know the level of business that we're selling is far far better. And it's because we make much more cautious hires, we just yeah, I'd rather sit with an open role than to fail you know to fail with more people and one of them might not make it. I'm not a lover of that model. I don't think it's good leadership practice and it doesn't really yeah it just doesn't serve you well in the long term. So yeah, I hold the line now while I draw the higher well and take time and be cautious about it and know that we are really getting that good fit than you know mass hire and hope. Max: Very good advice. Hold the line. Don't lower your standards.Kelly: Yeah.Max: You can always look back and say oh well I did this because of that mistake. But in your heart of hearts, you know when you're making a hiring mistake. When you're dropping the bar. So it's important to just accept the fact that your business is gonna be stretched and, like you said Kelly, sometimes at the risk of hurting productivity, but it's a small price to pay for a long-term gain. So thanks a lot Kelly for that advice and for your time and well I hope we'll get some of your followers to listen to our podcast. Kelly: Thank you, it's good to talk to you today. Max: That was Kelly Van Nelson, Managing Director at Adecco Australia, which tells us resilience whether at the company level or the individual level is one of the most valuable skills you can have in recruitment because things change fast and recruiters are change agents.They help whole economies reinvent themselves. I hope you enjoyed this interview and that you'll be back for more. Please remember to like follow and share. 

Amy: Welcome to Breaking Down Patriarchy! I'm Amy McPhie Allebest. I remember one day when I was about 25 years old, I was talking with a friend and she mentioned the Equal Rights Amendment, and I said something like, “Yeah, of course. So important, right?” And I think from my response my friend could tell I had only vaguely heard of it, so she said “You know it didn't pass, right? The Equal Rights Amendment was up for ratification in the 1970's and it didn't pass.” And to my horror, she then told me that the ERA hadn't passed because of the leadership of a group of Christian women, and that our own church had been instrumental in its defeat. I felt so betrayed, I literally remember where I was sitting and what I was wearing because I couldn't make sense of it.   It's embarrassing for me to admit that at the age of 25 I didn't know the Equal Rights Amendment wasn't already a part of the Constitution… but apparently I'm not alone - many, many Americans to this day have heard of the Equal Rights Amendment, but they think that like the 19th Amendment, it was up for ratification and there was a big battle to pass it… and eventually it passed. They don't know that many states still won't ratify it, and that they may live in a state or belong to a church that opposes it. So this is an incredibly important “essential text” that we're covering today. It's really short, but it has a long history that is still unfolding as we speak, and I'm really grateful to have two experts here to clear up misinformation and help us understand this critical piece of legislation! My reading partners today are Emily Bell McCormick and Kelly Whited Jones, co-chairs of Utah ERA Coalition .  They represent a coalition of individuals, as well as local and national groups that have been working on the Equal Rights Amendment for decades.  Their mission is to educate, elevate the role of women, and ratify in Utah.  So I'm thrilled to welcome you today, Emily and Kelly - Thank you so much for being here!! (Hello, etc.) :) To start out, could each of you tell us a bit about yourselves? (in whichever order you like) Emily: Bio Born and raised in a suburb of Salt Lake City, Utah Family: mother, father, one sister, two brothers Mother artistic and creative--parents met in Paris. Father kind and gentle--from a cowboy family in Wyoming.  Mother had a brain tumor when I was 10 and became bedridden and chronically ill. Passed when I was 19.  Memory of reading a book about Joan of Arc with my mom. We laugh about her family being the original feminists. BYU--Communication--thought of political science but didn't think there was a natural career choice Married The Ohio State University Worked in PR and marketing until started apparel company Shabby Apple Moved to Richmond, VA and then to Arlington--suburb of DC Had three children Sold Shabby Worked in comms consulting Moved to Utah, adopted two kids Experience at Apartheid Museum and meeting with Diana for brunch--The Policy Project Kelly: Bio Born in Orem, Utah.  Youngest of eight, sister is the oldest, six brothers, then me. Grew up without television, on a small farm. Asked a lot of awkward questions in Young Women's class - was a regular on the Father & Sons Campout, and begged my parents to let me wear pants to Primary.  They let me once. From polygamist pioneer stock -- Edwin Dilworth Woolley's second wife. President Spencer W. Kimball is my grandfather's cousin, he attended our Woolley family reunions. Both parents were educators, mom elementary school and dad at BYU. Attended the U of U on a Theatre Scholarship Graduated with a B.A. in Speech Communication, Masters in Environment & Health Worked for the U's Central Development Office in fundraising.  Corporate & Foundation Giving and Planned Giving.  Started in publications and PR. Three great kids, Donovan, Reilly & Gabrielle. My husband's...

On this episode of our podcast, we speak with Kellianne Fedio, an Amazon consultant. She discusses selling her previous business for seven figures and the creation of her new podcast. Her journey is long and interesting, with a lot of twists and turns. Here, she shares her entire story and offers great advice to those who want to follow in her footsteps. Tune in to hear Kellianne's great insights. Topics: When she stumbled on Ecommerce, she realized it was a good fit. How Amazon has changed since she started. Why outside funding sources are necessary. The importance of Mastermind groups. Living through rocky periods. Explaining rebates. Kellianne's consulting methods.   Resources: Kellianne on LinkedIn Kellianne on Facebook Digital Shelf Strategy Quiet Light Podcast@quietlightbrokerage.com   Transcription: Mark: Joe, we know that first-hand experiences of people that have gone through the process of building a business, preparing it for sale, going through that exit, that tends to be some of the greatest stories and stories where we can get a lot of lessons back to us that we can apply and learn how to optimize our own businesses for a better exit. I know you had Kellianne on recently and she shared her story of building her business and going through that exit and now her current pivot where she's starting up a podcast on this very topic. Joe: Yeah, Kellianne is good friends with another good friend of ours, Paul Miller, who owns Cozy Phones and Kellianne had a seven-figure exit. Technically, I guess it would be early this year that she closed on the transaction; early 2020. And she's learned a lot through that process and now she's sharing that experience and the knowledge and the networking and the story of building a business on Amazon; all the resources and connections that you need to make in order to build it well and build it right with an eventual exit in mind. So she shares her entire story and gives real tips and advice from her own direct experience during the interview. Joe: Hey, folks, Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage and the Quiet Light Podcast, Today I've got Kellianne Fedio and I had to say that out loud several times to make sure I pronounced it right. Kelly is a former attorney, Amazon seller, seven-figure exit that she's had recently. And she's going to be moving into helping people build their Amazon businesses for a stronger exit down the road. Kelly, welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. Kelly: Thank you so much for having me, Joe. I'm such a big fan of everything you guys are doing over at Quiet Light and have done for the past several years so it's a real honor to be here. Joe: I appreciate that. I did more of an intro just now than I normally do, but I didn't read from the script. But why don't you go ahead and tell us who you are and your story and where you came from and what you've done here? Kelly: Sure. So I started out as an attorney in a former life, and after having kids, getting married, I became very unhappy in that profession. That was just a lot of long hours, not enough pay at least for what I was doing, and I really wanted to be there for my kids. So I became a stay at home mom for a while and loved every minute of it. And then when my kids started elementary school, I was like, okay, what's my next chapter here? And I never would have guessed it would have been entrepreneurship. I was very traditional type-A personality in high school. I'm going to get all A's. I'm going to go to college. I'm going to go to law school. I'm going to be an attorney. And that was like my plan for the rest of my life. And so fast forward to several years later, after having practiced law for 10 years and now having kids and a husband and a wonderful family life, I was like what am I passionate about? What can I put out there into the world that not only is going to hopefully bring in income to our family but also that I could be excited about doing? And so I just knew it had to have something to do with online; being online and creating value online. And so, like a lot of other entrepreneurs getting involved in the online space, I tried a lot of different things, made tons of mistakes, had tons of failures, learned a lot, loved every minute of that experience, but sooner or later stumbled upon e-commerce and pretty quickly realized this is something that I really could see myself doing for the foreseeable future. And so around that time, Amazing Selling Machine had become pretty prominent in terms of the Amazon education space. So I was in ASM3 and of course… Joe: I got to ask, what number were you? The early ones were the good years. They're coming back around. They're doing good stuff again. I talked to them last week. Kelly: They are. They're always innovating, always doing new stuff so, I mean I always bring that out when I'm on podcasts or other interviews, because if it wasn't for that course my life would be a lot different. So I met an amazing group of entrepreneurs with the affiliate group that I joined. It was Ryan Moran and his tribe. I met a lot of amazing people. I'm still friends with them to this day, and really just dug in and had some pretty early success early on. So it was really, really exciting and I knew that this was what I was going to be focusing on, probably forever. Joe: How did you choose your first product? Kelly: I chose something that I thought I could build a brand around. So I'm very passionate about talking to other Amazon sellers about when they're thinking about how to start their business. You know, people always ask, well, how do you pick a product? First and foremost, you have to build a brand these days. When I started, you could throw up kind of anything and just with a little luck and… Joe: How many years ago was it that you started? Kelly: 2014. Joe: Okay. Kelly: Yeah, so it was a while ago. Things have drastically changed, right, in the Amazon space? Joe: A little bit, yeah. Kelly: Yeah, a little bit. And so even back then; and I had no branding experience or consumer product experience, but I knew that this first product, I could build a brand around it and actually wasn't a product that had a huge demand at the time, but it was a product that I knew that I would love and that I knew that other active women would love. So that's really what I built the brand around and just continued to develop products; not all winners, lots of failures… Joe: Additional products all within that brand, yes? Kelly: Exactly, that would serve a core audience and solve a problem or need. Joe: How many products did you launch initially, was it just one? Kelly: It was just one. Joe: And it was a success out of the gate? Kelly: Not right out of the gate. So I launched it in August but by that Q4, I had reached seven figures on top-line revenue so it was really, really exciting. Joe: Cool, very exciting. Kelly: Just with one product, one variation. Joe: And probably not working as many hours as you did as an attorney. Kelly: No, I mean, I definitely was working a lot because I was still in learning mode. I mean, the thing about Amazon and e-commerce is you're not only learning the platform itself, but you're learning how to source overseas, perhaps, and manufacturing and product design and advertising and marketing. So there's a lot of different skill sets you have to learn. So I definitely was really, really passionate about learning as much as I could. Joe: When you learn all of those things, do you think it's things you need to learn and then do yourself or do you think that there are certain experts that you can outsource certain things to like photography or listing creation or whatever it might be; importing from China, dealing with different things? Are there certain aspects to an Amazon business you feel that should be outsourced and things that you should do in-house as the entrepreneur that started the business? Kelly: Oh, absolutely. In the beginning, I think you should do everything with the exception of maybe photography. Super specific skill sets, like graphic design or photography certainly, you can outsource that early on. But everything else I would say you have to learn first and foremost yourself before you can effectively outsource it. And there are I mean, so many great service providers now that have obviously spawned in this Amazon industry not only software services but also other types of services, whether it's Amazon brand management or writing listings, things like that. So now it's all out there, but you should really learn the components and the strategy behind it first before outsourcing. Joe: How much money did you start with Kellianne? Kelly: I started with about $5,000. Joe: Okay, and did you have to borrow more to keep up with inventory? Because that's the story that I consistently hear. I started out with X and then when you dig deeper the business didn't fund the growth. Did yours fund the growth or did you have to go and borrow more? Kelly: In the beginning, it did. But yes, even if you reinvest all of your profits, there's no way you can grow initially without getting capital from outside sources. So about a year into it, I was able to get Amazon Lending so that was great. But before that, it was a lot of credit cards. And then early on, I actually was able to get a line of credit after the first year. But until then, it was really credit cards. And I wouldn't recommend people doing that but sometimes it's just a necessary evil to get where you need to go. Joe: Yeah, I was playing golf with a mentor years ago before I grab my head and one of the things he said to me was get a line of credit set up now; before you need it, get that line of credit set up because you never know when you're going to need it. And I see so many people that are struggling to keep up with purchasing more and more inventory for growth or developers if it's a SaaS business because they don't have the ability to stroke a check when it's necessary. They go hunting for that line of credit when they need it as opposed to getting it set up beforehand so I think it's great to get it set up beforehand. So you hit six figures you said by the end of Q4 your first year… Kelly: Seven figures, I was very lucky. Yeah. Joe: And did a million in revenue in 2004. Kelly: Mm-hmm. Joe: Don't you like how I could do the seven-figure translation to a million? That was really; okay, all right. Anyway was it all with one SKU or did you add additional SKUs as well? Kelly: By that next quarter of 2015 then I started adding more SKUs, but it was really just on one product. And so that talk about funding the inventory for that, I got to say it was just a lot of luck. I was able to forge a really strong relationship with my supplier very early on in China without ever having met him. And he gave me terms once he saw that this thing; and that normally doesn't happen that early on in the relationship. Joe: No. Yeah, I know. Kelly: He was able to give me terms. So that's another way that I was able to fund that growth so quickly that that first year. Joe: Yeah, if you can get to China, folks, we did a podcast with Athena Severi from China Magic and before that with Dan from Titan Network all about negotiating terms with your Chinese manufacturers, and it does exactly what Kellianne did, which was it gives you more cash flow for buying more inventory. And if you can get terms, it's a lot better than an Amazon Loan because the interest rate is very different. It's nonexistent in most cases. During that initial journey Kellianne if we summarize things so far, you took ASM3, you invested $5,000, you did a million dollars in revenue. Sounds easy, but I'm sure it wasn't, right? Kelly: It was and I know it sounds easy and like I said, there was a lot of luck in there too. I'm not going to like take credit that it was just all my superpower genius. But I did have tremendous tenacity because between the time that I launched the product in August, it was like pushing a boulder uphill; August, September, October, November. It wasn't really till November that it really took off. And I had the foresight and maybe just stupidity to order a bunch of inventory in anticipation of Q4 and early on recognize that I could market this product as a gift in addition to just the primary keywords that were related to the product. So that was something that I did very early on and that allowed me to scale too because I was able to secure top positioning for keywords such as gifts for women, top Christmas gifts for women, things like that, very early on. So all of that came from me putting in the hard work of learning and masterminding, I can't underestimate the power of masterminding as well. I found a small group of; there were all guys, actually, I was the only girl. They are all amazed… Joe: So you were in charge essentially, right? Kelly: Yeah, sort of but we just were kindred spirits and we became very close and we would meet once a week and we were all building Amazon businesses, others went on to build SaaS businesses and all other types of businesses. They're all super successful entrepreneurs and that really made a huge difference in making me feel like I could really do this because I had other people in my corner so that was all. Joe: There's nothing more valuable than that and it didn't cost you anything. It sounds like there are groups that can get together just to help share information or you can join more formal groups like eCommerceFuel or EcomCrew Premium things of that nature. Kelly: Exactly. Joe: I think it's incredible. So let's talk money; ASM3, launched million dollars in revenue within the first year, you must be rolling in cash flow, yes? Kelly: No, absolutely not. Joe: I knew the answer to that. Kelly: I wish. Joe: How much did you; other than distributions just to make you feel good to pay taxes that were going to be due, did you put yourself on payroll or take any money out of the business for you and your family? Kelly: No, not the first couple of years I did not. And I was again, lucky that I had a husband who had a full-time career and that's the money that we relied on to support our family. So starting this business, that wasn't the mindset that we were going to do this to support our family. This was hopefully something that we could build into something bigger and perhaps fuel some bigger investing goals and things like that. Joe: So you would not recommend someone listening quit their job and they've got $10,000 and they're going to do $5,000 to start the Amazon business and live off the rest until revenues start rolling; bad idea, right, because they're going to run out of money very fast? Kelly: Absolutely, I would never recommend somebody quit their day job. You really need to start any business, in my opinion, as a side hustle. I mean, even my husband and I to this day, like right now, I'm really getting into real estate investing and he's getting into day trading and we're going to wait until we become masters of that and really start making significant sums of money before he would ever consider quitting his job. Joe: Yeah, good advice. All right, so 2016 rolls around how do things go? Did you have any rocky periods where you thought this isn't for me or did revenue just continue to climb? Kelly: Oh, no. There was a lot of rocky periods. So back then there was no brand registry, there was no; just counterfeiters galore and the initial product that I had launched all of a sudden came on everybody's radar. I can't remember if by then there were tools such as Jungle Scout or things like that to look at what sales revenue these products were doing. But it definitely; people caught on and started copying my exact listings, the exact product. I mean, certainly, I didn't have any proprietary rights. The product was a private label product, but definitely, competition grew and revenue; I was able to maintain revenue because I diversified my keyword traffic and wasn't going with what everybody else is going for. Slowly but surely the market grew. But my market share also grew with it and then declined at some point because so many competitors came in. Joe: Did your margins tighten; did you have to drop the price too? Kelly: Yes, I did. I remember actually, so Q4 of my first year of selling, I think I sold that particular product at a price point of I think as high as $35. And now if you were to look at this product on Amazon it ranges between $10 and maybe $17 tops. Joe: Wow. Kelly: Yeah, and that happens. I mean you don't get to; that product was still a winning product by the time I sold my business but I knew that this couldn't sustain me forever. I needed to obviously continue rolling out products, right? Joe: And that's how you combatted it; you continued to roll out new SKUs? Kelly: Yes, absolutely. Joe: How did you determine what to do next in terms of SKU expansion? Kelly: I did make a lot of mistakes there. I launched a lot of products that failed. Joe: How many? Just out of curiosity. Kelly: How many failures? Joe: Yeah, after the initial launch out of the next 10, how many were successes, and how many were failures? Kelly: I would say I was probably at a 50:50 rate. Joe: That's good. Kelly: I would have liked it to be higher. And I think nowadays, with all of the tools that are available and with the mindset that you have to cut losers quickly; that was my biggest downfall, is it was so hard for me to give up on a product that I spent not only time but a lot of money on developing and then to just let it go. That was really hard for me. I was emotionally tied and that's one area that if I had cut those losers quicker, I would have freed up my cash flow and been able to expand and scale a lot quicker and more efficiently. Joe: Let's go into that a little bit further. Let's define a loser in terms of products. Is it one that is negative profit-wise or is it at 5% profit where the others are at 43% profit? How do you determine what a loser is and then what action do you take with it? Kelly: Well, it also depends on the time period. So when you're launching a product; everybody has their own time frame, but I kind of give it a three-month cycle of pushing it out, launching, ranking it, advertising, heavy on advertising so you're usually in the red. At least I was okay with being in the red at that point, but then it should start to pick up after that if it's going to be a winning product. If you've done everything right with your launch, and ranking strategy, it should just start to kind of take off on its own, really. Joe: A three month period is that what you're okay? Kelly: Yeah, about three months. Joe: Okay. Kelly: At least for me back then. I would say now it's probably a longer time window. I would say probably about six months. But there becomes this like intuitive sense of you're still continuously pushing a boulder uphill with your nose rather than it's starting to gain some traction and go downhill. And so you've got to know when is that point to cut it off and it definitely took me a lot of failed products and a lot of wasted money and time to finally realize. Even up until when I sold my business; I mean, the buyer who bought my business, there were quite a few SKUs that he was just like I don't want to continue with these because these are just not making enough profit. They were profitable but not making enough profit. So everybody has their own standards. Joe: So yeah, there's SKU balance that offsets risk. If you've got one SKU doing 60% or 70% of your revenue, some buyers will perceive it as more risk other buyers will perceive it as less work, and they like that. Kelly: Yeah. Joe: How do you; I mean, if you're at a six month period now in your assessment of really it takes that long to push that boulder uphill until it's profitable and then you determine whether or not you get to keep that SKU that you've worked so hard on or if it's not profitable enough and you move on. How often are you launching SKUs? It sounds like you're probably needing to launch them every couple of months just to keep up and stay ahead of the game. Is that the case or is that something you recommend? Kelly: Yeah, it definitely depends on your product mix and what your revenue goals are and what capital you have to work with and your cash flow; all those things. But ideally, if you could be launching a new product I would say at least every quarter but there are sellers out there that are launching products every week or every two weeks. It just depends. I did not have nor did I want to have some big, huge behemoth of a business where I had a million employees and I was doing all the product design in the beginning; myself, along with my manufacturers, maybe hiring some outside design people to create changes to existing products to make them better. That was always kind of my MO. And really, you have to have a certain amount of capital that is allocated to new product development and know where that line is because then you don't want to let your other product suffer either and that's what's bringing cash in and keeping the lights on, right? So there's a fine balance there and I really do think that comes down to cash flow management; knowing your cash flow. Joe: And that's something so many people fail at. I probably looked at 8,000 profit and loss statements over the last eight, almost nine years now, and I'll be honest with you, probably 70% of them are inaccurate; wrong cash accounting, not using Quick Books or Xero, but the audience knows that. I know that's my thorn in my side. Let's talk about favorite tools. I mean, you obviously have figured out the Amazon game. You must have used some tools along the way. Have there been any that have stood out that you kind of you think must have? I mean, you mentioned Jungle Scout a few minutes ago. What tools do you use in your Amazon business or recommend as you work with new Amazon owners now to help them fine-tune their business and get it ready to sell? Kelly: Well, I wouldn't say I would at this point in time recommend a specific tool because there's a lot of competitors in the Amazon SaaS space, right? But you want a good tool for first and foremost, keyword research and keyword tracking. So, for example, Helium10 is a great one for that. But there are many others out there that are very good. So I'm not going to say that Helium10 is the best. They are one of the best and I like that tool a lot. And then you're going to want to have a tool for launching and ranking. These days that's all about rebates and so I recommend Six Leaf. My good friend Joe Junfola created Six Leaf and he's got a very new and exciting rebate option in there now and I'm helping my friend Paul Miller with his business in using that. Joe: Really? He's my friend, too. Kelly: What's that? Yes, your friend too; our good friend. Joe: Our friend. Kelly: Yeah, and so if you don't have outside traffic that you can send to your listings and have like a system for that, you definitely are going to need to do some I would say giveaways but these days that means rebates. And so there are other platforms that can do that but that's the one I recommend for that. And then Helium10 basically has all the other components that I would recommend, such as product research and keyword tracking. There are so many different tools out there and they've all kind of evolved over time and they all kind of overlap and what was most frustrating to me by the time that I sold my company is I had so many different tools. And even though they did a lot of the same functions, one did one better than the other and so I felt like I just had a lot of bloat in there and a lot of things that I could cut out. And so I wish somebody would just like focus on one thing and just do it right. Joe: Yeah, because if you wasted a thousand dollars a month, that's going to cost you an awful lot in the sale of your business. Kelly: Yeah. Joe: Can we talk about rebates for just a second? I want you to educate me and educate the audience because a rebate to me; from a novice standpoint and I don't sell on Amazon, I did once upon a time but it'd be a conflict for me now as I see it. Plus, I don't ever want to import from China. Kelly: I don't blame you. Joe: Yeah, I don't want to; I was at Helium10 back when it was a man he had Illuminati Mastermind and I was at the event. It was in Cancún and somebody was up on stage and she was literally talking about importing from China, talking literally about the thickness of the corrugated box that your products have to be in. And I swear to God I felt sick three times and I thought never will I import from China. Rebates, you're giving something away. They're getting a discount back or they're doing a review and they're getting a discount. Explain how it worked because it sounds like it's definitely against terms of services depending upon how it's used. Kelly: Now, I don't think it's against terms of services. I mean there's a lot of rebate services out there now. Joe: What is a rebate? Kelly: A rebate is the purchaser gets to purchase the products and then they get reimbursed the full amount usually to be most effective or it could be some percentage of that amount. So traditional retailers have been doing rebates for years. I mean, it's a very common thing in marketing. Joe: So there's no hey, we'll give you 100% refund for review it's just buy it and we're giving you your money back and that improves the algorithm rankings; organic rankings. Kelly: It's a keyword ranking strategy. I would not use it as a review strategy; absolutely not. Joe: Yeah, okay the review strategy definitely gets against terms of services. Okay, thank you. I needed to hear that. Kelly: I mean, I wouldn't say it's necessarily against terms of service if you're asking for a review after the fact. But it just can be on that blurred line that you could potentially; and I haven't heard of anybody getting taken down for this but if you were to rebate a customer and then after the fact ask for a review then Amazon could potentially look at that as gaming the system. So you just want to be really careful and I would just recommend that sellers don't ask reviews for customers that they've given rebates to. Joe: What about is it cheaper or should it be a dual strategy of sending traffic from outside; buying traffic on Facebook that would drive directly using a keyword directly to the Amazon page, is that going to have a similar effect as rebates, cost less, cost more, or would you recommend a dual strategy of both of those or have you not sent traffic from outside sources like Facebook? Kelly: Well, that's a great question, Joe, but the rebate is just kind of like the end result of what the customer is getting but the traffic and the quality of the traffic is the most important thing. So a lot of these rebate services that are out there, they're just for using the same audience that they've built on Facebook over and over again. And Amazon now is so sophisticated they can tell that all that traffic is coming from the same source that's just this incestuous pool. So you really want to be careful of the services that you use. And ultimately, the best way is always to build your own list, to have your own audience whether that's a mini chat list or an email list or if you're a master of Facebook Marketing and you know how to target and you know what kind of audiences are really going to go and actually buy your product and if you have enough profit margin built into your product to do Facebook advertising. That's a whole another thing in and of itself. But for ranking purposes, you need to send high-quality traffic and a lot of these ranking or rebate services you just have to be careful of where they're getting their traffic from. Joe: Okay, so far we've established you as an Amazon expert; one that's been there, done that. I had to ask a couple of questions; dumb questions, if you will, to get us to where we are right now. Let's talk about digital shelf strategy, your business, where you're going to actually help Amazon sellers. If somebody out there in the audience is thinking that they want to exit their business someday in the future, or if they're just struggling and they're barely able to keep up with inventory demands, not taking any money out of the business and they're pulling their hair out, how are you going to be able to help them? Kelly: Great question. I started digital self-strategy when I was still a seller because I've over the years, I love Amazon. I live, breathe, eat, sleep, Amazon. I still do. And I would get questions from people anywhere from one-off questions to people wanting me to help them with their businesses. And so I have been very, very generous I feel like with my time wanting to help people. But sometimes if it needs to be a little bit more work or more time spent with somebody then I set up this agency just so I could have a way to work with sellers ongoing. And so between that and then another new business that I started with, Paul Miller, Amazing Exits, the consulting piece of that is really helping sellers with being able to look at their businesses holistically and help them figure out what are the strengths and weaknesses of that business. So kind of like a SWAT analysis and being able to help them with the things that are going to really move the needle and increasing the value of their business, whether or not they ever want to sell it because if you increase the value of your business, you're going to be spending out more cash flow. It's going to make you healthier in the long run. And then it'll certainly make it a lot more attractive to a potential buyer someday if you've got all your financials in order and you've got a really healthy profit margin and ROI and all the other things that go into having a valuable and sellable business. So it's a one-stop-shop, really, in terms of being able to look at a business, identify what are its strengths and weaknesses. For the weaknesses, we want to connect them with the resources that are going to help them fix those weaknesses and then ultimately be kind of their white-glove concierge along the way to a successful exit. Joe: And the Amazing Exits Podcast, that's where you're going to talk to people that have actually sold their businesses and have those resources, those experts on as well. Kelly: Yes, that's going to be both. I mean, we are looking for as many sellers as we can who have exited so we definitely want to have those as guests on. But we're also featuring top experts such as yourself to talk about exit planning. We're really trying to make exit planning sexy. This is what I say all the time and to really… Joe: Good luck. Kelly: Well, we're very passionate about it. And I think that if we couch it in terms of making your business more valuable now, like do you want more money now in your bank account and your pocket to feel your life, to feel your investments? Well, that's what it takes to build a successful business. And you might not ever want to sell it, but you should be building a sellable asset and realize why you're doing this. Joe: You're preaching to the choir. Making exit sexy again or sexy to begin with is; I had David Wood on the podcast and one of his visions was for people that are planning to eventually sell their business to imagine themselves on the beach doing whatever they want because they've got enough money in the bank to live off of and that's the sexy part of it. Or if you're building a better business, it's kicking off more cash flow. You are struggling less. You're able to do the things that you want because you've got the money and that part is sexy as well. Accounting makes most people's eyes bleed. It's the foundation of understanding cash flow and running your business successfully to get a strong exit. As you know, Kelly, anyone listening that owns any kind of online business at this time odds are that their business is their most valuable asset. Also, if it's an e-commerce business that's growing odds are that more than 50% of the money they'll ever make from that business will come the day that they sell it. All of that combined should kick start them into wanting to do more exit planning or coaching or training or things; whatever you want to call it, just getting in shape. As you want to work out and get your body in shape you should exercise your exit strategy muscles so that you're in better shape for your eventual exit because you will have a better path to it, a better exit as well, and be better off afterwards so that you can all go on to your next adventures, whether it be start another online business or do what Kelly is doing which is consulting and helping other people or where she was just a few years ago. Kelly: I couldn't agree more. That's so well said. And I would just add to that then, I truly believe, Joe, that one of the fastest ways to build wealth is to build a business and in this case an Amazon business and sell it. And that's the word that I want to get out to people, is that this is, like you said, your most valuable asset, most likely. And I didn't retire after I sold my business. I made a nice chunk of change and now I'm able to invest that into cash-producing assets but I will never stop being an entrepreneur. But I have so much freedom; clarity now that I didn't have when I was on that hamster wheel of running the business. So I want to just be able to express that to other sellers that there is another option to get off the hamster wheel and you can sell and do this again if you want so you'll have a lot more freedom and peace of mind. Joe: And cash in the bank throughout though. Kelly: Yes. Joe: Great. Kelly, thanks so much for joining the Quiet Light Podcast. I appreciate it. We'll put URLs up in the show notes for people who want to reach out. Kelly is there any other way that they can or should find you? Kelly: Yes, absolutely. They can connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm pretty active over there. @KellianneFedio on Facebook and then they can also go toAmazingExits.com and sign up for our email list for when we get ready to launch the podcast later in August most likely. Joe: All right, she rolled her eyes a little bit here folks for those not watching. She's got a hopeful goal of August. I think it's going to be great whenever you launch it. If it takes an extra few weeks is not a big deal. Kelly, thanks for being in the Quiet Light Podcast. I appreciate it. Kelly: Thank you so much, Joe.

In this episode of The Future Focused Podcast I breakdown how patience is not a force of opposition to tenacity but rather fuels it. You'll learn how to build patience to fuel, better execute actions with tenacity to become a better leader at home, at your job, and in life.  Tenacity is one of the six core elements of leadership, but it is fueled by patience. Patience is a skill that can be acquired and built. I'll show you how in this episode.  Patience is one of the greatest skills we can learn as a leader.  Thank you for taking the time to listen. Thank you for being a leader. I hope you will share this out and reach out to me. Stay safe and healthy friends. You are a leader. This is our time. Our best days are ahead of us, not behind us. Kelly Thank you for listening to this episode of The Future Focused Podcast. Kelly Croy is an author, speaker, and educator. Want to learn more? Send an email. • Sign-up for Kelly’s Newsletter. Listen to Kelly’s other podcast The Wired Educator Podcast with over 160 episodes of interviews and professional development. • Order Kelly’s book, Along Came a Leader for your personal library. • Follow Kelly Croy on Facebook.  • Follow Kelly Croy on Twitter.  •  Follow Kelly Croy on Instagram   

"Adversity does not build character, it reveals it." Wise words by American novelist, James Lane Allen, and words each of us should reflect on deeply during this COVID-19 pandemic.  Now, more than any other time in our lifetime, we need leadership. We not only need leadership; we need more leaders. We need more people to stand up, speak up, and take action.  This episode of The Future Focused Podcast is a live recording of a Facebook Live presentation I did earlier in the week. I focus on how to lead in a time of crisis. I review the six core elements of leadership as they apply to a crisis. I reflect on the importance of both our circle of focus and mindfulness. I offer my advice on how to lead yourself, your home, your business, and your community.  This recording has already made an impact when it went live. The comments I received immediately told me I needed to share it out in podcast form, so people could listen while they drive, do chores, and workout.  Thank you for taking the time to listen. Thank you for being a leader. I hope you will share this out and reach out to me.  Stay safe and healthy friends.  You are a leader. This is our time. Our best days are ahead of us, not behind us.  Kelly Thank you for listening to this episode of The Future Focused Podcast. Kelly Croy is an author, speaker, and educator. Want to learn more? Send an email. • Sign-up for Kelly’s Newsletter. Listen to Kelly’s other podcast The Wired Educator Podcast with over 148 episodes of interviews and professional development. • Order Kelly’s book, Along Came a Leader for your personal library. • Follow Kelly Croy on Facebook.  • Follow Kelly Croy on Twitter.  •  Follow Kelly Croy on Instagram   

Learn More About The Content Discussed...No Boss Talk:https://nobosstalk.comKelly Roach’s Website:https://kellyroachcoaching.comKelly Roach on Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/kellyroachinternationalThe Camp Elevate Facebook Group:hereBeth’s Instagram:@bethholdengravesBeth’s website:https://www.bethholdengraves.comProfit HER Way Course:https://www.bethholdengraves.com/profitKeynotes discussed:Now I feel like I can like look you in the eyes, I can have a real conversation, we can connect with one another. I never once felt like I could connect with people. It's like it almost stole my superpower because I was so good at selling when I could connect with people. (07:16)If you decide that you want this to be a moneymaking venture, you can, you know, turn it into a business where you can quit your day job, retire your spouse, travel the world, retire, whatever the case. (12:34)She did a $300,000 launch her first month and unstoppable because she leveraged her existing Facebook group that she had never really understood how to get maximum value out of. (15:22)The way that you create that is when you deliver compelling content that really meets people where they are and serves them in a really high level. (16:52)And this is the big piece that sets you apart besides just personable, valuable content that works by the connection is the accountability piece is, I have someone in my inbox saying, Hey, Beth let's chat. (20:39)When Did It Air...January 20, 2020Episode Transcript...Beth:Welcome to ‘You’re Not the Boss of Me’. If you are determined to break glass ceilings and build it your way, this show is for you. I’m your host Beth Graves and I am obsessed with helping you to not just dream it, but make the plan, connect the dots and create what you crave. Are you ready? Let’s get started.Hey bosses and welcome back. Another episode that I'm saying, oh my goodness, pinch me, how did I get this opportunity? I guess it happened because I visualized, manifested and just decided I will have Kelly Roach on the show. And it is happening! I'm excited for you to dive into this episode. A little bit about Kelly is, she is known as the Business Catalyst helping elite business owners become game changers in their field, achieving million-dollar breakthroughs in business. She has helped me to have my own personal breakthrough and you'll hear about that in this episode.She is a former fortune 500 executive and she transitioned from her big, big job in fortune 500 to working with online strategies for entrepreneurs. I am so grateful that she made this transition so that she could be accessible to all of us with her live launch strategies. She's been featured in every major publication on every major news station and now on You're Not the Boss of Me podcast. She has her own podcast too, which is called Unstoppable Success Radio. I listened to it without fail every single time when an episode drops. I cannot wait for you to hear what Kelly has to say. And trust me, you will want to hear about how the live launch method can help you grow your online or network marketing business. So, are you ready, bosses? Here we go.All right, everyone welcome. And you can't even imagine how excited I am to have like my girl crush idle with me. It's like when she said yes, I felt like, Oh my gosh. So, Kelly Roach, welcome.Kelly:Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.Beth:So, I found you when I was scrolling Facebook one day and I saw this perky video about how we could use live video, to sell without being weird, spammy, all of those things. And I was so curious because most of our listeners are network marketers who are looking to be more authentic and genuine. And I know with your live launch programs, you work with a ton of us. I'm wondering, coaching clients. So can you talk about what comes to mind when, let's go back to when you decided that the webinar or, and we do a lot of that even in network marketing was old school and how you discovered life being the way to create better community, create better connections and have more sales.Kelly:Yeah, definitely. Well, you know, if I dial it back to where all of my original business success came from, I was literally going door to door business to business, working for a fortune 500 company doing sales. I literally would come in the office; I would pound the phones for four hours straight. Like literally didn't even put the phone down. It would rest on my shoulder in between calls until I got a headset. And, and then in the afternoon I would go out every day to 20 to 30 businesses. So, this was like hardcore, you know, sell it. Right? And, but what was really, really cool about it was Beth, when I could connect, you know, face to face, eyeball to eyeball, belly to belly with someone. I made the sale, you know? And then when I started my own business in 2012, I'm like, okay, cool.Like social media is awesome. It's this amazing like interface and platform and all of that. But what I started noticing was happening was like all of these layers and layers of technology and barriers and things to manage were coming in, but I was new to the online space. So, as I grew my business, I was listening to the people that were teaching how to build business online. I was still taking the principles that I knew, but I was like, okay, how do I apply this to social media? How do I apply this to the online world? And so, I'm layering in all the tech and the funnels and the emails and the webinars and the prerecorded videos and the list goes on and it's just exhausting, and it just never really resonated for me. It never felt good. I never felt like I could show up.Like right now I feel like I can like look you in the eyes, I can have a real conversation, we can connect with one another. I never once felt like I could connect with people. It's like it almost stole my superpower because I was so good at selling when I could connect with people. And then I felt like when I got into the online world, I had so many barriers between me and people that I lost my superpower. And so finally one day I was just like, screw this. I remember, you know, the girls are still on my team now that were with me and I was like, we're getting rid of it all. I'm like, I'm not doing any of that anymore. I'm like, it's ridiculous. It doesn't work. It's not working. You know, we worked so hard. So, I said, let's just try, like us and the camera.Like let's just try like removing all of these obstacles and barriers and try to focus on connecting once again with people. And low and behold, the second that we made that change, our business started to grow and grow and grow exponentially because now all of my competitors are doing prerecorded videos and prerecorded videos and edited, you know, stuff with, you know, all this fake like, you know, you know what you see online. It's like all fabricated stories of the fairies and unicorns, right? And glitter and dust and then here I am, just this person that's teaching and sharing real stuff and people are getting value from it. And it just exploded. And then I was like, okay, this is too good not to teach. And that's how I started teaching the live launch method. It was really out of necessity because we were failing not out of like something so great that was working so well, but it's now really revolutionizing the way that people do business online. It's really cool.Beth:So, I'll share with our listeners because I've shared with you that I felt really called once. And I'm saying this to network marketers, that I see too many people attempting to coach before they've, what I think is the before you've made $1 million. So, I just thought, okay, I want to share what I've learned. That is not all of the magic tricks. Like I kept seeing like build your business with automation. Never get on the phone again. And I'm thinking we're changing people's lives. We've taken what we've learned from you, in terms of our network marketing team. We're now doing laser coaching sessions, so they get to work with a Million-dollar earner. We are, and we'll talk a little bit at the end. Kelly just challenged me to create a live launch. So, stay tuned for how we can share the business opportunity with more people using what we call the live launch.So, some of you are thinking, what is live launch? And I want to give a little background of, I had invested so much money into thinking about how I could build out coaching programs and always got caught up in the tech, could not figure out how to put the Facebook pixel for an ad. And then it was overwhelming. I thought, screw it. I make plenty of money in network marketing, but my message, the amount of women that I can impact and help now is incredible, because that's my mission. So, I took a leap into live launch and literally just started sharing the tools and techniques, built a group and have women that I'm already working with in a program, and paid back my investment within 48 hours, which was insane. It's insane. It's crazy. So, we know it's magical and if you're wondering what is live launch? I want to connect those pieces to what we're doing in network marketing.So, I'm going to give Kelly a hot seat right now because I've been in the hot seat. So, let's, let's just role play this. If I was going to, let's say I'm in the travel business, which I'm not, and people could make money with me either booking travel or setting up travel agents to work with them. Okay? And normally they'd hop on a webinar and I'd share all the slides, which took me all day to put together. I missed picking my daughter up from school because I'm putting together the slides and literally it felt like my drunk uncle was driving me around. But I've decided I'm going to do this, the live launch. Wait, we're like creating something right here on, on the spot. And so, what comes to mind if someone's listening and says, okay, I want to use Facebook Live to share what we're doing with this travel business. So how would live launch work for that?Kelly:Yeah, definitely. Oh my gosh, I'm getting so excited. So, if it were me, the way that I would design the live launch would be like I would have part one of the content be you know, how to get your luxury travel paid for. Right? And never spend a dime while staying in the best resorts around the world. Right? So, it would be like you would teach them, the first thing that people want to do is they want to travel more, and they don't want to spend their life savings on it, right? So, you have to meet people where they are. Right? And then it might be like the second piece of content might be how I went from, you know, getting my travel paid for to getting paid to travel. Right? And then the third set might be how I went from getting my travel paid for to quitting my day job and being able to retire my spouse based on my travel, you know, my side travel business and then in might be how I can help you launch your own travel business, even in the pockets of your spare time, so that you can first get your travel paid for.And then if you decide that you want this to be a moneymaking venture, you can, you know, turn it into a business where you can quit your day job, retire your spouse, travel the world, retire, whatever the case. But really what it is, is you start off by meeting people where they are and giving them the content that they really crave. Everybody wants to travel more. Everybody wants to get their travel paid for. How can someone do that? Right? They can get into a network marketing couple company that offers travel, right? Buy and do it. Start taking the trips themselves, get the trips paid for, invite other people to do it. How do you do that? You share content. When you travel, you show the beautiful pictures, you show the video, you do live streams from there talking about, I cannot believe it, but this is me working right now, right?This is me working, I'm, you know, on the beach and you know, blah blah blah. I think it's just what we have to remember is that everybody in this day and age wants to feel connected. That is why we're on social media 24/7. But the problem is that, and scientific research shows this, although people are more connected than ever, they feel more disconnected than ever, right? But when you come live and when you teach and you add value for people and you show up in perfectly, that's a really important part. Like I let my dog in with me, I let my five-year-old daughter and with me, you know, like showing up in perfect is a huge piece of your human connection. That's going to get people really excited to buy into your brand because it gets them to open up to you to say, Oh, you know what? Beth is like human, like she's cool. You know, she's someone I want to get to know, right? She's not just this, you know, talking head on a white screen, you know, green screen behind her that's trying to present as you know, this, that and the other. So, I don't know if that answers kind of what you were looking.Beth:Yeah. Oh my gosh. My brain like is triggering and I'm thinking, okay, so that, that was just one topic. So when you think about the pillars of what I've noticed in Unstoppable Entrepreneurs, and even in the free group is, this is where people stay in network marketing businesses is, you talked about community and connection. So, a lot of us out there have these groups where people are hanging out learning products and we're missing the boat. It's sell, sell, sell, special, special, special, buy my stuff, join my team. And it's turning people away. What would your suggestion be for people that have existing groups using some of these awesome live launch tools?Kelly:Oh my gosh. So great. And this is so huge because I just did an interview with Michelle Bosh. She's in our program. She did a $300,000 launch her first month and Unstoppable because she leveraged her existing Facebook group that she had never really understood how to get maximum value out of. So, there's probably listeners right here right now that could be doing the same thing that just don't know. Like, you know, how do I take these pieces and make it work? I think exactly what you just described though; Beth is exactly what's been happening in the coaching space to be honest. I feel like, you know, there's so much selling and so much marketing that people forgot that we're here to serve.So what I say is first of all, if you have a Facebook group, start doing a weekly live show, right? You know, obviously Beth works with me, so you know, I'm such a believer in this, but start doing a weekly live show where you're not selling anything. You're not asking for anything. You are focused on giving. You are showing up to serve. You are showing up to add value for the people in your group. You're setting the tone as the leader and the group of what your values are, what kind of leader you are and that people should come hang out in your group and spend time there because no one wants to hang out in a group where all they feel like they're getting promos and specials and sales and buy more, and you know, do this and do that. Like people want to feel like there's something in it for them, right?There's a reason to come spend time here and as you said, Beth, they want community, real community, not just being in the group because it just so happened that someone's prospecting you to join their downline or you know they're in the group because you know, maybe at some point they've expressed an interest in a product. They actually want to feel a real sense of community. And the way that you create that is when you deliver compelling content that really meets people where they are and serves them in a really high level. What will happen is people start commenting on your chat and they start engaging with one another. They start getting to know other members of the group and now all of a sudden you have this dead group that you feel like you're pulling along on your shoulders to try and get people to engage to people.Looking forward to your weekly live show, building relationships with one another, posting of their own volition in the group because there's like a dialogue going. I always say it's like playing catch, right? That's like you don't want it. No one wants to play catch with themselves. They want to play catch with someone else and if they feel like it's just a one sided, they're being hammered with offers and specials and sales and do this, and there is no reciprocity. You know they aren't going to invest. Whereas if you build that reciprocity and build it and build it, this is why you see me constantly. Every day I'm doing either a podcast video or podcast, a video, some piece of free content. I'm going in someone else's group. I'm going on someone else's show because you to build a brand, which you guys are not as network marketers, it's really, really important that you're building a personal brand. When someone thinks of you, you don't want them to think of the name of your company. You want them to think of you as a person and as a leader and how you're leading people that have the same philosophy and values that are in alignment with the company that you represent. Does that make sense?Beth:Oh absolutely. And that is, you know, it's going on six years since being in the industry. And I feel such a shift, that it is people are joining because it's, it's not necessarily, yes, people love the products, but there's a million products we could all love. But the thing that I think is so interesting is that you're given a distribution channel, right? So, if you looked at live launch as a way to create more interest, more excitement around your opportunity or product, the winning pieces, you don't have to build the website. You don't have to collect the money. You don't have to distribute the product. So, all you have to do is show up. And we did. We did this in a let's get physical challenge. You would had been so proud, like the proud coach. Because we did the exact pillars that you teach in your free content. Like you literally could watch and what is, there's one going on this, you know, timestamped now, but isn't there a way to get that content now?Kelly:Yeah, I mean anybody who wants to get in the tribe, the next one we're doing and just a couple of weeks. I mean, we do it every couple of weeks. So, you know, anybody that wants to go through that free journey and then they can come to you to help them customize that content. Right? How does this work in network marketing? Right?Beth:Right. So, it's the tribe of Unstoppables, and Kelly and I just chatted before we started is, I'm already shifting. I have the 25 women that are going through the Profit Her Way program. Now we are going to live launch every single one of them, test it, see it for either opportunity, because I have a big travel group in there, so we just literally just wrote up the travel. We have a lot of health and wellness and so I'm so excited. Because my brain, I've started since working with you, every time someone is talking, I'll think, oh they should live launch that. Oh, they should…Kelly:It's so funny, because now I get phone calls and texts and pictures and messages from people like every day saying like I just told this person they need a live launch. Look for them. I just told this person I need to live lunch because everyone's just realizing like Holy crap, we've been doing it the hard way. Like the tools are there for all of us. You know what I mean?Beth:The tools are there and what I love is, I watched it the first round. This is, you might not know this. I watched it the first round and then didn't jump in to really digging in and learning. And then finally it was, and this is the big piece that sets you apart besides just personable, valuable content that works by the connection, is the accountability piece, is I have someone in my inbox saying, Hey, Beth let's chat. How's it going with your live launch? Let's do this. Not just a cheerleader. I mean she cheers for me every day, but accountability, and that is a big piece that is missing and the network marketing space. So, where did you come up with this idea, that Oh, people will sign up and pay for my program and they're going to be assigned an accountability coach?Kelly:Yeah, I mean we want the Unstoppable Entrepreneur to be the best business incubator on the planet. Like I literally wake up every morning and I asked myself, how do I make this the Harvard of online business money-making? You know, I think everybody deserves to be able to have the freedom to, you know, put their family first and be financially free. And I've experienced the opposite. And then I've experienced where I am now and all I want to do so badly in my life is just bring people across that finish line, you know? So, what we realized is that it's not just about education, it's not just about information. It's not just about coaching, right? It's a coaching program. It's not just about coaching. It's also about the fact that life happens, right? We all have a lot on our plates. We all have families and other obligations.Some people work a full-time job and they're building a business. Some people are running two companies, right? You can be caring for a sick parent. You have kids at home, whatever it is. And so, we realized that if we weren't dedicated to being in your face and in your inbox saying, Hey Beth, I haven't heard from you in a week and a half, are you okay? What's going on? You know, your live launch is coming up, you know, let's make sure things are okay. Let's get you on a hot seat. It's been a while. Whatever it is. We want to make sure that that commitment on our side is as high as we expect the commitment on your side to be. And I feel like that's a lot of what's lacking in the online world. And so instead of complaining about it, we're trying to be the change that we feel will be the catalyst and making a bigger difference for people.Beth:I love it. And that was huge for me, was even doing it before the first of the year, which is exciting because now we're going to take that even further and help these women too. And one man, it's Profit Her Way. But I had to say Profit Her/His Way. We had to vote him on the Island, and he made it. So, when you think about how your life looks now, because I am all about preaching that we have to block time in our calendar for joy, for self-care, for time with our kids. Because I didn't do that in the beginning. I was literally burning the candle from both ends missing really, really, really big events. And one day I read something that said, you want your husband, your kids to remember you as holding your phone or holding their hand? So, I preach be wherever your feet are, your multimillion-dollar entrepreneur who is so, so everybody knows Kelly Roach. But the thing that I love most about you, you do not have the hustle grind mentality. So, can you talk a little bit about that shift?Kelly:Yeah, definitely. I mean I think coming from fortune 500 I've already experienced that burnout. I always say I feel like I lived a whole life in my twenties before I moved over, because I had such a high level of responsibility that I learned so much so quickly, and I feel like that really informed my decisions and my path when I started in the entrepreneurial world. And I joke all the time because people will be like, Oh my gosh, Kelly, you worked so hard all the time. Do you ever take a break? Do you ever take a vacation? I'm like, yes. I take seven vacations a year with my family. I take off on Fridays in the summer I'm at the pool. I feel like the difference between me and every other online entrepreneur is I don't pretend to take a vacation so that I can have a photo op and be working so that I can show that I took a vacation.When I go on vacation, I'm not on my phone, my phone is off. It is locked in the safe for the week. I am present, I am with my family. And I think that's so important, right? You have to have that downtime. You know, I go out to dinner with my family at night and I'll leave my phone at home on purpose, because I know I run two companies. If the phone is with me, there's someone that needs me, but if it's not with me it will be there, you know, when I get back. So, I think just being really intentional, we have one vessel, one body. I woke up at five this morning, I did not want to work out and I was down there doing my little workout video, you know, getting ready for the day because I knew I'm going to be going hard and going straight through for you know, 10, 15 hours.But it's those really conscious decisions about, you know, what do you want your life to look like? And I know for me, I want to make sure that when Madison is like graduating high school, going into college, getting married, like I want to be in great physical form. I want to be in really good energy. I want to be in a healthy mental state. And so, I'm thinking 15 years, Madison’s five, just for everybody. You know, I'm thinking five and 15 years down the road, and I'm making my decisions today based on the person that I want to be when that time comes. And I think it's really important that as entrepreneurs we're thinking that way because it will take everything from you, entrepreneurship and building a business, because you care so deeply, because it is your passion. It will take everything that you give. So, unless you learn to set real hard boundaries for yourself and have a high level of discipline around that, you will always succumb to that. So, it's a learning that I think we all go through. But I think it's one of the most important things that you can learn as an entrepreneur, because your energy is everything, right? And you can't fake energy. Like you can try to show up in a certain way. People see right through it.Beth:It's that whole vibration they sense the energy. So, I always like to end the podcast with one question and you guys, I gave her no pregame session here. So, everything like, learning that travel piece hot seat is, and this is the piece that is a big mystery for many. And I know that you work so hard and you help us so much, with not only the strategies, the tools, but also what really has to happen between desire, belief and commitment. So, many of the people invest in your program and you will see some do $100,000 launch and some just not take that action. It's just always something. They have the desire. At one point they had the belief, what separates the people that in network marketing, I see it too. I'm all in. I'm all in. And there are some that do and some that don't. What is your belief about that?Kelly:Yeah. And it's so tough. I mean, we could do a whole show on this, but I'll give you a couple things. You know, number one, it's total ownership, right? You either believe that everything is happening to you or you believe that everything's happening for you. Amen. And that is it. Period. End of story. I mean, I am in an of the belief that we are wholly and completely responsible for everything that is or isn't in our lives. And the actions that we take every single day are the outcomes that we create, right? And I think when you have that mindset, you couldn't possibly not get up in the morning. And do the work because everything is possible, but also everything is, is up for grabs. Like you, you can't expect it if you aren't working. Right? So, I think that that ownership piece is huge.But I think the second piece is people that are called to something bigger than themselves, right? Because I think that it's enough to drive short term behaviors when you want to, you know, get the next payday, you want to get the next client, you want to, you know, pay your mortgage for the month. Like that's one thing, right? And, there is a hierarchy of needs. Like we all start down at the bottom of the hierarchy. But to show up consistently every single day, you have to be fighting for something bigger than yourself. Whether it's your family, whether it's your legacy, whether it's the people that you want to impact, the causes that you care about, you know, whatever it is, there has to be something bigger than you that you're working towards and fighting for. And that way on the days when you don't feel like showing up and the days where you don't feel good or you don't want to get on camera or whatever it is, you have something that's like, now you got to keep going, right?There's something you're doing it for. So, you know, it's always so cliché because people always say you have to find your why, and like I hate that advice because I feel like it gets twisted and manipulated a lot. But at the end of the day, you do need to know that why? Like my family is my everything, right? Like I make every decision with family first. And so, like when I got up this morning and I was thinking about working out, I wasn't thinking about myself. I was thinking about how am I going to feel after working for 10 hours when Madison gets home from school today and what person am I going to be? And I know I'm going to be a better, happier version of myself if I work out this morning. Right? So, it's like something bigger than you even in the little thing.Beth:I love that. I love that. And it wasn't until that I pushed the beyond, that the money piece, the financial freedom and knowing what foundation I wanted to build, and what my bigger mission and larger mission and we'll, we're going to add yours in the show notes so people can read about the work that you're doing. That's way beyond how much, you know, being a multimillion-dollar entrepreneur. We'll add that for people to see. And also, one more time, because you have so much free content that network marketers can apply to, and we're going to rewrite it for you guys. Don't worry. It's coming. We're going to rewrite how you can look at your recruiting, how you can look at your product sales using the live launch method. I've just decided, I'm like looking at my blank whiteboard. It's going there. And so, explain again how to find you, how to find the unstoppable entrepreneurs. Well, it's the tribe of Unstoppables that is the free group, right?Kelly:Definitely. So, yeah, I mean, you guys can just go onto Facebook and search Tribal Unstoppables, we usually run the free workshop like once every six weeks. My recommendation for everyone listening is come through our next round and then immediately go to Beth and be like, help me make this work for network marketing. Right? And I think if you bring those two things together, and I know with what Beth has up her sleeve, she's going to be changing the face of how you guys launch. So, I'm very excited to see where that goes and where you arrive. But yeah, of course we would welcome anyone into the tribe. And you know, I'm excited, I think there's a massive opportunity for, you know, I always say, I know we're wrapping up, but I just want to make one comment before we wrap. I always say that if kids, as soon as they became a working age, were educated about the opportunity of network marketing, we'd have no homeless people. We'd not have no jobless people, we'd have no one that is graduating college with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. The opportunity in network marketing is unbelievable. And kudos to all of you guys that are listening to the show. They're taking that and bringing it out into the world because it really can change so many lives and makes such a huge difference for people.Beth:I love, I love that. And I always say too, it's the best training to become an entrepreneur because you get to learn about building community culture, marketing lives, money, though the energy…we have so many topics. We're going to have to have a part two.Kelly:I know…We'll have to set that up.Beth:So as soon as we get the live launch, I've got three that I think that we can get that ready to go. I'm going to check back with you because we could do some really fun things together on helping network marketers with that live launch method. So, I'm excited. Thank you, Kelly, for being on today.Kelly:Thank you so much for having me.Beth:Well that's a wrap and thank you so much for being with us today! Is Kelly not the most extraordinary human? I love hearing her speak. I wish I could just stay with her all day and climb inside of that brilliant brain of hers. So what we talked about today in the live launch method; using it to grow your network marketing business. This is one of our big pieces, our big modules and Profit Her Way, which is teaching you to build a business you love, that doesn't steal all of your time and joy, but gives you your own marketing, your own profit plan. This is my six month mastermind and doors are open. If you want more information, please go to bethholdengraves.com/profit. Thanks so much for being with us today, and as always be you bravely.Thanks so much for hanging with me today on the podcast and remember, you can create what you crave. If you're looking for a supportive sisterhood, I would love to see you over in our free Facebook group. As most of you know, I love camp. It's part of, 'You're Not the Boss of Me' because when we're building this thing, we're doing this thing. We need a supportive sisterhood and I also crave more fun and more connection. Join us at camp over in the Facebook world, thecampelevategroup.com or just click on the link above and we will see you around our campfire and help you to create what you crave.  

In this week's episode, I interview Kelly Buck, a Dunstan Baby Language Educator and doula. She talks about the Dunstan Baby Language program and how it gives us a window into the first communicative interactions between baby and caregiver. From birth, babies make sounds that are reflex-based. When we understand what these sounds mean, we can respond to and interact with babies more confidently and effectively.   TRANSCRIPT: Sara: Hi, welcome to the Birth Words podcast. Today, I'm chatting with my friend and fellow doula Kelly Buck. Kelly is also a Dunstan Baby Language educator. And today on the podcast, I'm going to ask her more about the work she does with Dunstan Baby Language. So hi, Kelly, welcome to the podcast. Kelly: Hi, thank you for having me. Sara: It's great to have you. I'm going to just ask you a bit about your background with Dunstan Baby Language and the work that you're doing with that. So I'll jump into my first question. Kelly: Okay, sure! Sara: Great. So how did you find out about Dunstan Baby Language? Kelly: So, I learned about the program in 2008 when I had just given birth to my oldest. Sara: Oh, good. Kelly: Yes. And I was one of the rare cases of postpartum depression that happens almost immediately. Yeah, we’re talking, I was bawling in the recovery room. So and add to that, that my son was actually really colicky. And he had a lot of trouble latching. And I was just kind of like an emotional wreck. So, one day I was kind of I was on the phone with my mom. And she mentioned that she had seen the episode, an episode of Oprah where there was this lady that said she could understand why babies cry and I was like, okay, maybe I will look this up. Sara: Yeah. Kelly: Yeah. So that led me to looking up the video on YouTube and learning more about Patricia Dunstan and her programs. So at the time, you could only order the program online for DVDs. And so I did. And I'm telling you, it was a game changer for me. It was amazing. My husband and I both listened to it and we were just like this is… this is working! We tried it with with our son and he seemed to calm down. I still had a little bit of the depression, but I felt like I could at least care for my son, you know, do what he needed. So that I could, I could do that. And so I started like lending out all my DVDs telling my friends who were pregnant or who just had babies and I guess you could kind of say that new learning about Dunstan Baby Language actually kind of sort of paved the way for me to becoming a doula because I love talking about birth and babies and how just how much it did for me, specifically for my postpartum depression. So, so yeah, that's how I got my start. And then I, I went on to become a doula and then later on, I was thinking okay, what can I offer to my clients? What can I do and then I, I went online and lo and behold, you could certify to be an instructor. So I did, and I was like this is this it! And yeah, so I'm about six months into being an instructor and I love it. It's an awesome program. Sara: So sounds awesome. Kelly and I were chatting before we press record about how I was not as fortunate as Kelly that I didn't find out about Dunstan Baby Language until after one of my clients introduced me to it. And I had three kids that were well beyond the baby language stage. So I'm glad that you found that at a fortuitous moment for you and I'm sure all the friends that you shared it with, were glad, too. And now all your clients that you can share, but with your formal training, that's awesome. So, can you give an overview of just the premise of the program, like the main points that it operates on? Kelly: Absolutely. So the main points of the program are that infants are automatically born with certain reflexes that they are using to kind of communicate with us. And they've kind of boiled it down to five specific sounds that all newborns make. And again, like I said, they're based on reflexes that are happening in the body. And when you add sound to those you get these Dunstan baby words that can help parents understand what their baby needs. It's really a program all about helping families bond and bond from an early, age. Sara: That's huge. And it's true for whatever language the baby goes on, is exposed to and goes on to acquire Is that correct? Kelly: Absolutely. They have done studies with over—their first study was with over 400 mothers and parents and babies and they all found that whatever language they spoke these babies still made the same sounds. And so and also it applies to even autistic children. I can attest with my oldest who's autistic—he still made the sounds even though he has difficulty communicating. But I honestly believe that because I was able to respond to his needs so quickly that it might have helped a little bit with that. I can't say specifically or scientifically, but that's just my opinion, because he is high functioning and is able to speak. So… Sara: But that makes a big difference like you said before with bonding and with him recognizing that he has needs that he can express and that you can respond to them because you know what they are. That's huge, and I feel like so many young parents with little babies making sound that have no idea what they're saying, just feel this frustration. And it affects the bond that can happen when you can't communicate with your child. Kelly: Right, right. And I just think about those parents who are like, what happens now after the hospital doors closed, you know? And if I can give them these tools to say, okay, you don't have to feel that sense of kind of dread as what you do now that you can go home and be confident and in your ability to be a good parent. Sara: That's huge. Cool. So I have another question for you. That's a little long, but… So in one of my classes, we were talking about language acquisition—first language acquisition—and I read an article about how older babies are, “learning how to mean,” meaning that they're exploring with language and how they're able to communicate their needs and ideas with others through it. But as I was reading it, I felt like the author wasn't giving really young babies enough credit. He claimed that it was past six months, past nine months, even, that babies realized that they can learn how to mean. But I want to hear your opinion, when do you think that infants begin attempting to meaningfully communicate and what avenues do they use? Kelly: So, like I said, our philosophy is that infants are, are kind of unconsciously communicating from day one. And again, it starts off on these basic, these very primal reflexes, but they're finding that if parents respond to the sounds that our babies, babies are making, that they… They're finding that if, if are not responded to the sound, usually about after three months, they kind of stopped making the sound. But they found that if parents are responding with the sounds and with these words that babies will kind of learn to associate that, and keep on making these sounds well past three months. It honestly, I believe it. It's my belief that, that it's helping babies communicate earlier. It's helping babies learn how to trust earlier. Because they know that their needs are being met. And so they're, they're calmer. So, yeah, does that does answer your question? Sara: Totally. And that makes a lot of sense to me because like you said, initially, it's a physiological reflex-based, like not a conscious attempt to communicate. But when you realize that, hey, when I make this sound like I am communicating this message with my parents or other caregivers, then that invites communication earlier. I think that's great. I think that makes a lot ofsense. Kelly: Yeah. And and it also kind of dispels the belief that that babies are manipulating you. Because young babies actually can't. They don't… Sara: Right. Kelly: It’s not like they consciously choose at two or three weeks to, you know, be colicky, they don't choose these things. So it's, it's your understanding that changes your whole perspective. Sara: I think that's a really good point because we kind of thrust our perspective upon a baby like, oh, they're manipulating me. If you sat down with somebody who said that, they probably realize that didn't actually literally mean that they felt that their baby had the ability to like, recognize their desires and then thwart them by doing something different, right? Like toddlers, we know they do that, right? But little tiny babies, right? But if you shift the perspective and say, okay, where is the baby coming from and what cues is the baby responding to and what physiological things are going on? When we shift our perspective instead of putting our perspective upon our babies makes a really big difference. Kelly: Yeah, exactly. Sara: You're totally selling me. I love it. My next question I've kind of touched on before so if you don't have anything else to add, that's fine. But how has your work as a Dunstan Baby Language educator influenced your personal experiences, and then the work you do as a doula?   Kelly: Um, it To be honest, I love it so much. So sometimes it's hard to hold back, especially here in Utah, with so many women who are pregnant and then like.. YOU NEED THIS! But I hold back. And oftentimes, they'll be, I'll be in church or something and there’ll be a baby crying and I'm like, “I think that baby needs to burp.” But, you know, I just I can't just go up and say that to somebody. But there have been times where like, I've had family members who've had babies and, and I've listened to them and I'm like, “I think that baby is kind of gassy” and she's like, “No, she just pooped” or something. I'm like, “well, try this or try doing this…” And sure enough, 30 minutes later, the baby will pass gas again or, you know, if they, they'll be like, the baby will be hungry. And they're like, “Oh, they just ate” and I'm like, “no, they're still hungry.” So yeah, they'll latch right on. So, but I, I just I love being able to offer this to women to, again to just be able to build that family bond. And the other thing that I love about is that we focus a lot on the dad. And we… my husband was actually much better at hearing the sounds in my son that I was and it is kind of forced me to stop and listen to him and trust his instincts and improve my communication with him. I know a lot of times, moms are hesitant to, I guess leave their baby with her husband or something like that because they feel like they have to do everything. But couples who learn this are kind of able to let that go and say, “Okay, my husband knows what to do.” And a lot of dads will come in and be like, “I feel so good because I know what to do.” Sara: Awesome. Kelly: So yeah, I love that family bonding. Sara: Yeah! And empowering for for both parents. Because it can be disempowering for a mother to feel like I am the sole provider for my baby physically, emotionally… Especially a breastfeeding mom who has literally… her body is producing all of its food and then feeling like its emotional needs can only be met through her, that can be disempowering for her. And it's great that you can flip it and empower for the husband as well for everybody to work together as a team. And even outside of that, you know, if you have other caregivers or grandparents or partner, whoever is helping to care, that's huge. Kelly: Absolutely. This isn't just for for new parents. It’s or anybody who's working with newborns, just to be able to improve their confidence and their skills. So yeah, I tell I tell my clients all the time that if grandma is watching baby then teach them these sounds so that she can respond quicker. But yeah, I love empowering the dad. That was my that's kind of why I do doula work as well. It's fun to see the dads in the birth room and see them transform into fathers. So giving them another tool is just, it's just a great opportunity. Sara: So that's huge. Okay, you've totally sold me. I'm going to talk with you more and more about this and send my clients to you to take your classes and all of this. I think this is important work that you're doing. And I have two quick questions for you to wrap up. One is if you had to choose just one word to describe your views about birth and the surrounding perinatal period, what word would it be? Kelly: life-changing? Is that one word? Sara: Oh yeah, just stick a hyphen in there—totally one word. Kelly: And no matter how your birth goes it's definitely going to permanently affect you and in whatever way, it's something that always stays with you. You can ask any person who's given birth. If any person has given birth, they may not be able to remember what they ate yesterday, but I guarantee you they can tell you every single detail of their birth and their story. Sara: Great. Life-changing. I love it. And I feel like that applies, too, to the work you're doing with the Dunstan Baby Language that could be life-changing. Kelly: Thank you. Sara: My last question is, how can listeners follow you on social media or your website? How can they connect with you? Kelly: Absolutely. So my website is shebirthservices.com, and you can follow me on Facebook at SHE Birth Services. And Instagram is the same thing: SHE Birth Services. So I’d love for anybody who wants to come and take a class. You're welcome to. Sara: Great. Thank you so much Kelly. It was great to have you. Kelly: Oh, thank you.   Outro: Did words play an important role in your birth experience? If you're interested in sharing your story on the podcast, go to www.birthwords.com. If you're liking what you hear on the podcast, please leave a review on your podcast app. For more resources about harnessing the power of words to benefit the birth experience, visit birthwords.com   Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Ready to Positioning Your Business to Profit? Go to-->>> http://positioningtoprofit.com/HLP_029.mp3Patty: Hey there my legacy leader This is Patty Domínguez with Episode 29 of Her Legacy Podcast Reinventing yourself and your Business with the amazing Kelly Howard, Kelly has had an amazing run at entrepreneurship. Being a business boss she has started and built and sold business number four. So in this episode we're talking about how to know when it's time to sell how she knew literally what was holding her back from selling.And then just the overall mindset of what it takes to get into this frame of mind and do it knowing setting the intention that on the other side of it you're going to be fine. We know that being an entrepreneur is not for the faint of heart.And so I deeply appreciate these kind of conversations with women who just have that fortitude and the knowingness and setting the intention and seeing it through. I particularly admire women like that so I'm super excited to share Kelly's story with you here on Her Legacy Podcast. And please do hit the subscribe button if you haven't done so. And of course let me know what you're thinking about this episode. What other topics do you want to see? Because I'm always looking for new guests to bring to you my legacy leader. So this episode is a special one with Kelly Howard. Please do enjoy. And here we go.Patty: All right Kelly Howard thank you so much for being on Her Legacy Podcast. It is such a pleasure. And it was actually commenting and how fresh faced she is today. She's putting me to shame you. And because this is not a video podcast Thank God then just wondering knowledge with you. OK. And welcome.Kelly: Thank you. I'm super excited to be here and I told Patty that the reason I was so fresh faced was I actually showered this morning which of course when you're online you have to do that right.Patty: The secret of owning your own business you know getting to decide whether you want a shower or not. I wanted to just say we met in person at a mastermind a week ago and it's such a joy to connect.And I got to tell you I did a show talking about just how important connecting in person is. I mean you can have group code you have an online presence and doing that kind of thing but there's nothing like being physically in front of a group of people and connecting at that level.So I just want you know I'm so glad I got a chance because we were laughing so much and having so much fun and learning and immersing ourselves and just new depths of opportunity and it just been fantastic so far.Kelly: Yeah it was very brilliant.Patty: Yeah it was awesome. All right. So I'd like to get braggy with all my guests and I want to know what do you believe your superpower is.Kelly: Oh my superpower. OK. My superpower is a weird one. I have the ability for good or for bad to not remember something that wasn't good. So yeah. So this is the way that works. Like I'm just going to make something up. Let's say that someone did a really bad review on me.Patty: Yeah.Kelly: Right. I like Oh Bad review. And then that would be it. I would never remember it again. And if I saw that person I wouldn't remember that it didn't happen like there were times when my partner would say you can't do business with that company again. Don't you remember what happened I'm like No.?So my team part of their job is to keep track of things like this. I don't know if it's a superpower but it really makes my life easy.Patty: Oh my God. Well we know that the cause of our suffering is attachment. As the Buddha says and that your ability to be removed from the outcome is exceptional and that is literally what causes all suffering.Kelly: Yeah, I guess that's a great way of looking at it. Thank you.Patty: Yes. I mean I literally get chills because how many I remember in my first podcast that I had this was in 2015 I think we got one bad review and it was completely ridiculous it didn't have anything to do with anything with the podcast. I was literally sick about it.I was like how could somebody not appreciate it and we just take it so hard or if somebody comments on your work I mean how often has that happened. Or something as not well received. We look at the bad and bypassed the good and we just get mired in the bad.Kelly: Yeah. It doesn't help I know that like at one point I used to check and see why people unsubscribe. Like if they unsubscribe from email list. Well because Kelly Howard is a litchi cried a lot so hard And after that it's surreal I don't I would look at my own tabs anymore.Patty: Oh my gosh.Kelly: I remember it. But it struck me as a rather funny actually. So yeah yeah I guess it's just holding on those things just doesn't help much.Patty: It doesn't. It doesn't. That is truly a superpower. The one thing that I say is just as a total aside I have been so amazing about, I want people to unsubscribe like don't waste my e-mail service provider people's space type of thing. If you're not interested. Yeah. And I think it was Lisa Carpenter last year she talked about doing a massive cleanup just kind of a recon doing her e-mail list.Kelly: Sure.Patty: It just unapologetically. She's like you know these people are never going to do business with me because I know we have such an attachment to our list size as supposed to the quality. So just as a little aside as it comes to my mind there's nothing wrong with that.And I know we just put so much weight on these dumb things that don't matter at the end of the day and you just a perfect example of the way they explained it you were you just laughed it off you know.Kelly: Yeah.Patty: Yeah. It's incredible. All right. So I thought it was so fascinating when I read when you first fill out a form or just about just what you've been doing in this incredible background that you have had you started growing building and selling for different businesses.Kelly: So you're truly truly an entrepreneur.Patty: Yeah.Kelly: I don't. I mean I work well with others but I don't work out what someone tells me what to do.Patty: Amazing. So tell me about like is this something that you always knew that you would do or did just organically happened because you're just wired that way for something new.Kelly: Yeah I think I am just wired that way. I couple of very young stories like you know I learned very early on that if I wanted a horse I had to clean my horse stables. I did the horses Ta da da Right. So that's how I figured out that I got what I wanted.So a few years later I was able to drive. I was 16 at the time and I saw a fruit stand on the side of the road. I stopped and I'm you know watching these people and people just fine all this stuff and I thought why can't I have a food stamp. So I served fruit stand and my mother said we look like the grapes of wrath.My little brother and my friend from down the street to work we would drive to this fruit stand every day. But it was amazing like I had no knowledge that I couldn't do this. So I just did it and we got shut down by the Health Department they extend something back up again. Well, All right. And it was stupid just like how much money we made. It was crazy.Patty: Wow.Kelly: And it just kind of stuck with me after that. And then you know I don't do well with someone telling me what to do. You know I'm just not very good at that. So it just stuck with me and that's what I've been doing ever since.Patty: And out of curiosity what are your core values.Kelly: Oh freedom is clearly the number one driver.Patty: Yeah. Yeah. And that is just we're really addicting. And here's the other thing is that the fact that you just did it and didn't even think you have this ability to remove yourself from the outcome. Did you have any fear of failure or anything?Kelly: Oh at that time no. I will say that as I've gotten older and businesses have become more successful then absolutely. Like right now and I'm sure we'll talk about it later but right now I'm in transition so I'm starting something new. Like early it's on my desk whatever new it is. And there's absolutely some I don't think fear is the right word but if I paid attention to it I would be afraid. So I have to just like or remove myself from the possibility that it could flop and I might not do it. And just like focus on that outcome.Patty: And how do you do that? How do you say OK how do you catch yourself because I know we talked right before it hit the record button this last business as you were ready to sell it you're kind of exploring whether to sell or not. And the question of one came up and you find yourself too much in the comfort zone. How did you set by to that?Kelly: So yeah. So I was way in the comfort zone. And I had realized that this business went on for a long time I think I was in it for about 14 years. And it was the most successful business I've ever had. And I was really cool was every day money would show up in my account.Patty: Unbelievable.Kelly: Magic right. It just it was a membership company. So there was just always money in my bank account. And when I decided that it just my heart wasn't there anymore. You know like energy my heart like when I woke up in the morning it was like Yeah, let's go do this thing. It wasn't like yeah let's go do this thing. So it was time to change. And I definitely I guess the right word to say is that as I was closing on this business there was a little bit of a head around my throat.Oh what are you doing? Like really. You're doing this. And then the other side of me is just like just don't even think about it Kelly. You cannot think about a bad outcome if I think about a bad outcome. Then I'm stuck. Right. So whenever I go to bad outcome I just like I guess it comes back to at superpower really just turn my brain off it's like whatever. Let's not think about that. We'll think about unicorns and rainbows and Right. It's the only thing I know to do. Like literally right.Right now the way I structured the cell of this business because I want to do it so quickly all of while not all of it but the majority of the revenue comes at the end. So it was a serious leap of faith on this one because I mean I have bills I have ongoing you know expenses and starting a new business but I still went OK well let's just see what happens like worst thing that can happen is I go back and I started another fruit stand or start stacking groceries right. Like.Patty: Gosh you're truly an entrepreneur, like you're like yeah what the worst thing that can happen is and if we can wrap our heads around that and say you know what. You're still going to be OK. You're going to be OK.You have the ability to create money. I mean it's like when you really recognize and coming from a place of if this doesn't happen then there's always something else that mentality is was going to help you stay in the frame of mind that you're going to be OK.And I know that makes sense but I think it makes a lot of sense and I think that people hold on like because I've heard this before and I even had clients like this has to work otherwise blah blah blah my bringing in such a bad energy source. And like it's like you're forcing it to happen and I know I literally have been there too I am notorious. I remember having a coach saying to me you are literally one of the worst hardoholics I've ever seen. And that show me just my wiring. Like I'm going to work myself to death because this has to have it. And it sounds like for you. You almost say OK I'm going to forge ahead on this but I know that if that doesn't work there's always going to be something else.Kelly: There will be I mean if you think about it. We live really easy lives right. Like I mean really occasionally if you look around our lives we're all crazy. So the worst thing that could happen for me isn't that bad right.Like I mean there was a time in my life when things weren't great and I would realize that even in times that weren't great I was still better off than I ever really probably expected myself to be as a child. Right.So I don't even know how to say it it's just that something else will happen. Like you know something better will come along. Things just worked out. Oh there's light all we end on built a fear of life right.Patty: Yeah but you know it really is true. It was just I've meant before we hit the record button I was talking about how I went to dinner with some friends and they are not entrepreneurs. They work for companies and my friend was saying just how unhappy she is and I was talking about how it has literally been seven years since I've been in corporate and I just cannot wrap my head around ever going back and I always say it's because I know too much.Not that I'm so much smarter that I know too much of what it's like to live on the other side. And for me that sound like for you because this is what sparked this comment is that my inner peace of not having to deal with other people's bullshit in a work situation my inner peace is more important.And if there's ever a situation where I'm just not making as much it's ok. I prefer to have my inner peace I don't need the super designer bags, do I like them absolutely. But if that means I have to forego those types of things I know that I'm going to be OK because my inner peace is lost in court.Kelly: Yeah it is true. I mean if you don't feel good inside then it's just not fun.Patty: It's not. And I wish more people understood that. And I mean I've come full circle and that realization is that I just love the perspective that you naturally have that I've had to find out on my own and I think in a very hard way. You know verses like you're just wired that way which is so fantasticKelly: I mean our society doesn't teach that.Patty: No.Kelly: You know I mean it is very much like you need a nose to the grindstone you need to do things right you know if you don't be irresponsible like don't get rid of a business that's working.Patty: Great.Kelly: You doesn't know what's going to happen next.Patty: Yeah.Kelly: that's just kind of social.Patty: Yeah it is just the social pressures and when you finally like all the irrational rules. Right. The really weird unwritten irrational rules that you kind of people are probably thinking you're crazy for doing that. So how did you get over your whole imposter syndrome is it because you didn't want to sell because you didn't know what was next or you didn't want to go into the West next.Kelly: So OK the imposter syndrome this is what happened it was back in August when I really decided OK you know quit partying around like I had a broker. But I really was like you know yeah yeah. Don't like that offer or whatever. Not interested. And I realized that I was really kind of holding on. Right.So I was like what am I doing. I mean why I am holding on. And it's because I had become such a big dog in a small space that it was really easy for me. Right. Like you know I was known in my space. If I spoke people listened. You know it was kind of like ego right it was just like total ego thing.And I was thinking well now I'm just no one right. I'm just no one again in a no one space because I don't even know what I want to do. And in that you know it took me it was probably four months of just kind of wallowing around in that thought process because I was just like well you know who am I going to be. So then I decided I was going to be is Kelly 4.0,Patty: Oh I love that.Kelly: That was it. You know reincarnation here and it's just a joke. And then when I jump I start thinking about like I still if you were to say like you know gone to my head. What are you going to do? I'd be like this.I has done it well. But the truth is is that you know I know what I'm good at and I know where I can help. So it comes together.Patty: Let's continues with the show. So this new brand that you're working on and it very much is in the early stages is fit is freedom. Right.Kelly: Correct.Patty: Can you talk a little bit about your vision as it is right now because we know that you can fit itKelly: No absolutely. What I know. I guess I get so emotional around all of my friends who are whether they're entrepreneurs or women who work for corporations. I hate the fact that something I hear all the time is Oh yeah yeah I know I need to take care of my health. I'll do it tomorrow I'll do it next week I'll do it when this project's done. I'll do it after I launch you know whatever it is and it always is getting put off.And what happens is that I see my friends like you know doing the things that they love to do they start gaining weight. You know become inflexible and they're just not caring for themselves. And it's what I. I got a couple of years ago I started realizing I was getting what I called Launch Hangover's like I would do these big launches right. And then you've got runway up to the launch and you got to clean up after launch will this had three to four month period. Right. And I was just like working my ass off.Patty: Yeah.Kelly: They were successful but I wasn't because I wasn't taking care of myself like you know my food. I'd start having food delivered that was just like the local Chinese food and whatever right. You know things I don't normally do and not going to the gym.So that's where it all came from. I'm like OK I had to turn it around and once I turned it around I went you know this is something that's important because how can you and everyone else and myself do the things that we need to do if we don't sulk it.Patty: Yeah you're absolutely right. I know last year I was focused on work and I was sacrificing a lot of the health and that's so easy to get into that rhythm where you say oh later I'll do it later. And it's just not enough. And I know like something happens after 40 where things are just not working the way that they used to.Kelly: Well Yeah it actually starts out at about 30.Patty: Seriously.Kelly: Yes.Patty: Oh my gosh.Kelly: But it's happening on a cellular level. And so then by 40 if you've been kind of you know doing the work wrapping during your 30s and by 40s it starts showing up and then if you keep doing it then in the 50s you're like oh man can I get it back.Patty: Everything's hurting and it's so much harder.Kelly: Yeah.Patty: Oh wow. So then what is the structure of your new business going to be doing you think is it going to be a membership as well or are you going to do more retreats.Kelly: Well actually a great question. I will start with a simple online 10 week course with coaching a weekly coach course. People can either do it yourself or you know do the coaching monthly.Patty: Yeah.Kelly: That's step one step two is a retreat because I events are in my blood like I just can't help it. I just do events right. I've always done a bit. So a couple of retreats here. That's it no more. And then the final step is a membership where people can be accountable with each other and stay there because there's so much to be said for.Well it's like you're talking about community. Yeah. If you're not connecting. Especially if you're working by yourself right. Like if you're not connecting and you're not having fun and you're not being accountable you're not turn load then trimmed there when you're all together then Life start shrinking and we don't want life to shrink like I mean we do this for ourselves so life can expand and not so it shrinks.Patty: That's so fantastic and it sounds like you have the structure in mind because you've done it before and it's just going to be easy peasy once you hone in on exactly what the experience you want your people to have. And we've heard that before.Kelly: Yeah yeah. I mean it's kind of like Chibbies. Right.Patty: You're like piece of cake. I like this... All right. So then what's your vision for this? It is freedom. Let's say over the next two three years.Kelly: OH OK. Let me clarify that like what does the business end up looking like what is the business. Where is the business? Maybe a little.Patty: Yeah. So for you. What do you wanted to look like. You personally because you've been in your last business you have for 14 years you anticipate holding on the same view. You want to get it to a certain level and suddenly it has that always in the back of your mind.Kelly: Yeah that's a great question. So I've never had a personal brand before. And the reason I haven't is because the personal brand is harder to sell, right. I am kind of at the age now where I probably don't have Kelly 5.0 in me likeYou know I mean really the truth. So what I assume is that I wanted something that was very location independent everything I've had in the past has been tied to the city and the cities but also for me but it's been tied very tightly that way.So location independents small team. I've had big teams I've had little teams. I want little team I want like you know at the most. There are five of us and we are just like kick ass and take names. In a very small group less is more for me these days. My word for the year is ease. I want things to be easy.Patty: Yeah.Kelly: So easy to me is not a big team a simple structure. I don't do one on one coaching because that's not easy for me. It doesn't light me up.Patty: Right. Right.Kelly: So I want things that just make me happy. And I also want a lot more playing in the next couple of years. I kind of dialed the back these last two years. And I mean I'd like to get out and backpack and kayak and things like that. So I've already put big chunks of time in my calendar where I'm just taking off you know.Patty: Oh that's so amazing. I remember hearing on somebody in the online space that is like an author speaker. He said that at the beginning of the year him and his partner they take 100 days on their calendar where they just take off.Kelly: Wow. That's awesome.Patty: So yes that is number one on his calendar when he talks about goals and objectives and all this and then says one of the 100 days. And where are we going. And I thought that was so brilliant because it makes it a lot negotiable.Kelly: Yeah.Patty: And everything else works. Now isn't it.Kelly: Yeah. Now I got to go back and look at my calendar.Patty: I know I thought that was so smart and it just reminded me and I heard him say this like literally four years ago. But it just popped into my head because of the way that you set age you're like I want to do more of the fun and this and that and so what if you sat down on your calendar and just made it a nonnegotiable. And I think that's how it doesn't get away from us because we have a tendency like the largest lets file that later.Kelly: I mean I don't you know I've done that and.Patty: I just love that philosophy. And he's all about my business works for me and my partner in the set up in the lifestyle that we want.Kelly: Right. That is the lifestyle that we're doing rightPatty: Oh Yummy. I was like oh my god that's so smart. So I don't know. I'm all for that and I think that's something to really consider a dodge because I definitely see the value in that. I mean think about it like almost a third of your year is based in enjoyment and connection and the relationship holding for me. Tell me that you're not going to have a richer life just by doing that.Kelly: That's right.Patty: Fantastic. OK. So we're going to turn the corner here. Think of a song that would represent your life. What song would it be?Kelly: OK. Sure. Big fan of James Brown. I feel good.Patty: I love it Kelly I feel good.Kelly: I love it.Patty: That is awesome. OK. And what is one personal development or growth habit that you have that's worked for you.Kelly: Woo maybe a bundle is at work. I have like a little bundle that I have every day. I can't tell you that I knock it out of the park every day. It's probably 70 percent that I hit it. But the bundle is I write a journal. I meditate or I do self-analysis.I put my vitamins out like I am the worst vitamin I'm a perfect vitamin buyer. Terrible vitamin consumer right. So the vitamins go out and then the other thing is I write my goals too.Patty: Oh wow.Kelly: I kind of bundle that little thing into the morning.Patty: Oh that's brilliant. It's a good morning bundle for sure. And then what is your definition of success.Kelly: Wow. I think it has come back to freedom. You know I mean that really is our definition of success to meKelly: Yeah let's say you have that inner peace All the inner peace boy that's what I love it...Patty: And then after all is said and done Kelly what do you want your legacy to be.Kelly: I'm not a person who is generous with her time. Like I don't I don't volunteer. You won't find me you know at the local shelter volunteering but I am generous with my money.And I want to be able to have a legacy where I know that by what I have created I have been able to create. A better life for people who need water for animals who need homes for women who need shelter for children who need love.Patty: I Love that is beautiful. Yeah because when we have money we have choices and more money more choices on how to create more impact.Kelly: Yeah.Patty: Which is really cool. And so how do people get in touch with you if they want to hear more about Fit is freedom what you're doing which backup event this year.Kelly: So you can find us that fitisfreedom.com and that will lead you to the podcast it leads you to me at least your downloads. So once again it's just fitisfreedom.com.Patty: Brilliant so fit is freedom dot com it'll be in the show notes and all the links will be there too. With Kelly's social media handles and ways to connect with her. Kelly thank you so much for being on her legacy podcast.Kelly: Oh thank you. I mean I'm so grateful. Thank you.Patty: Likewise.Here are the links where you can reach Kelly Howard:Kelly Howard (kelly@angeltiger.com),Website: www.AngelTigerFit.com (being rebranded to www.FitisFreedom.com),

15-40 Connection is focused on educating and empowering people about early cancer detection. This education helps individuals become aware of the early warning signs of cancer. Most cancer organizations focus on research for a cure, treatment or support. There are also many cancer organizations that focus on prevention. Unfortunately, we still don't know what causes all cancers, so while some preventative measures can reduce risk; it can't remove the risk completely. Research shows that detecting cancer early improves effectiveness of cancer treatment and also improves the chance of survival, which is why 15-40 Connection is empowering individuals to be aware of the early warning signs to give them their best chance at effective treatment and survival. 15-40 Connection aims to educate and empower individuals with the skills to recognize subtle health changes in themselves, rather than rely only on medical professionals. Through 15-40 Connection's 3 Steps to Early Detection individuals learn how to become active participants in their own health care so cancer as well as other illnesses can be diagnosed earlier. The result is a quicker return to health and most importantly lives saved. For more information: https://www.15-40.org  As Vice President for Engagement for 15-40 Connection, Kelly Fattman supports educational outreach and national communication that teaches people how to detect cancer earlier. She is passionate about saving lives through the power of early detection. While working in this role, she experienced health changes herself that lead to a brain tumor diagnosis. Kelly put into practice the exact education she was delivering to change the outcome of her situation. Using 15-40 Connection's 3 Steps Detect, Kelly became one of the most valuable members of her health care team. After describing how her health changes felt, she was told by two doctors. “That doesn't make sense.” Her health changes were different from what they had seen most often. As they put the piece of the puzzle together to determine her diagnosis, Kelly continued to trust how she was feeling and shared that information. It was because of one of her symptoms that were not making sense that her doctor ordered additional tests which revealed her brain tumor. Had Kelly not shared that information, her diagnosis would have been delayed, the brain tumor would have continued to grow, her treatment options would have been more limited, and the chances of lasting side effects would have risen significantly. Prior to her role at 15-40 Connection, Kelly, helped companies large and small launch products, reach new audiences and improve customer engagement. Some of the major brands she has worked with include Reebok, Dunkin Donuts, American Express, New Balance, and the Boston Marathon. Here's the Transcript of the Interview Hugh Ballou: Welcome to this episode of The Nonprofit Exchange. And yet another interesting guest, Russell. What do you think of that? Russell Dennis: Good-looking and interesting and smart. Dedicated. Those are the kind of people that show up here. I like it. Hugh: We attract really brilliant people who have good stories. Kelly, welcome to The Nonprofit Exchange. Kelly Fattman: Thank you for having me. Hugh: We had a struggle with technology, but we conquered it. Here we are. Let's start out. I don't like these dry introductions of people. I like people to tell me a little bit about themselves. What about you is important to the work you do? Then talk about this organization, 15-40 Connection. Kelly: It's interesting because I have a background in marketing and development. I have spent the last part of my career, probably the last ten years, in strategy, development, and activation, specifically around customer engagement. When I came to 15-40, my role was to really help to drive engagement and scale because we really needed to scale our message. We knew it was life-saving education, and we needed to get to as many people as possible. What is unique in my story is I was working as a consultant, and then I had a health change. Part of our education is about noticing changes in your health and acting on them. I did that. I call it my orientation to the business. I was in real time in my life testing our education. Does it work? My health change was significant. I did see a doctor. I had some challenges with getting a diagnosis, but I pushed. I became the empowered patient, which is something that we talk about, and got to an accurate diagnosis, which really changed my life. That makes me not just a business professional, but also a consumer. That combination has been very successful as we enter the drive of this mission and our need to scale it and our ability to scale it. Hugh: Kelly Fattman, y'all aren't from the South, I can tell. Where are y'all from? Kelly: I am actually born and raised right outside of Boston, Massachusetts, but my parents are from Pennsylvania. I have a little bit of a mixed problem going on here. Hugh: Russell is over there in Denver. They got a really distinctive accent, which you can't tell. The South is very distinctive, and in New England, it is of course really distinctive. Tell us a little bit about 15-40 Connection. Kelly: Our mission is we teach people how to detect cancer early. It's that simple. There is a ton of companies. Once you are diagnosed with cancer, there is a bunch of resources to access for treatment, care, mental health, and research. When it comes to the path that leads to diagnosis, there is nobody who does what we do, which is unfortunately why we are doing it. The founder wasn't necessarily looking for something else to do, but when he saw this opportunity and the gap that was available to people to maintain their health and survive cancer, he acted on it. Our education is teaching people how to recognize symptoms, act on those symptoms, and connect with their doctors to get an accurate early diagnosis. Hugh: Outstanding. On your site, there is a core educational message called Three Steps Detect. Kelly: Correct. Hugh: Say more about that. Kelly: The Three Steps Detect is our core education. It is really the entry point of what you learn when you're learning about early detection. We broke it down into three simple steps. If you follow these three steps, it will lead to not only potential cancer diagnosis early, but really diagnose anything. We have heard from people this year that have diagnosed heart disease, kidney stones, things along those lines. We know that it's not just cancer that can be detected early. It can be anything. We know that anything detected early gives you a better chance of survival, better health outcomes, getting back to your life quicker, back to health quicker. Hugh: It's not just cancer? Kelly: We are focused on cancer, but the interesting byproduct of our education is it's helping people find other things as well. But our primary focus is cancer. Hugh: Wow. So you started telling a story that you had a health change. It brought you- How did you connect with 15-40? Was it already in existence? Kelly: I was actually working here, and they were developing the curriculum Three Steps Detect. We had been doing education before I got here but knew that we needed to tighten it up, be clearer on the message, get something that was memorable and actionable. That is what I was working on. When I had the health change, I followed the three steps quite honestly. The biggest step we talk about is the part where the patient interacts with the doctor. Doctors, we call them detectives. They only can solve the case based on the clues that are provided to them. We are the people who provide the clues. I was providing my clues; however, the doctors basically outlined to me that what I was saying didn't make sense, that my explanation of my symptoms couldn't be what they are. I stayed true to my story because of what I learned here, and ultimately they ordered the right test and got to an accurate diagnosis. I had two diagnoses prior to the third, which was the accurate one. Hugh: Some of us listening that are paranoid. When I visit people in the hospital, I start hurting when they start talking about their operation. Can you give us an idea of those three steps? Kelly: Sure. First step is to know you're normal, to know that you're great. What's good for you? When you wake up in the morning, how do you feel on a good day? We don't have a checklist, but it's setting benchmarks. What's your normal sleep patterns? What is your normal energy level? What are your bowel habits? Those are the things you should be checking in with. How is your skin? Do you have a lot of moles or just a few? Are you watching your skin? If new things come in that weren't there before. It's knowing what your normal is so if something changes, you can recognize the change. That is step one. Step two is the two-week rule. Since you have set the base of your normal, when something changes, you'll notice. Your stomach starts to act up. Maybe you're going to the bathroom differently. You're more tired than normal. Most things will clear up after two weeks. The flu, pneumonia, the common cold. There are lots of things that after two weeks solve themselves. If after two weeks you are still feeling these symptoms, we recommend you go check it out. It does not mean you have cancer. The two-week rule helps people not to be a hypochondriac, as you stated; it helps them to be calm because they say, “Okay. In two weeks a lot of things go away.” Two weeks gives them a reason to go check it out. The third step is the sharing with your doctor. That piece is the most critical in that it's what I outlined earlier. What you say to your doctor is going to determine what they know about you. They don't have X-ray vision. They can certainly order tests, but they don't know which ones to order if you are not sharing the right information with them. Ultimately, that relationship is critical. In this time where health care is so challenging and so variable across the country, it is understanding all the different scenarios that people can enter. Some people have long-term relationships with primary care. Others use urgent care or medical clinics, so it's a one-and-done environment. It's making sure the patient is driving the conversation, and they are driving the outcome to early diagnosis because if we don't drive, the doctors and the way the model is now built, they don't have the infrastructure and support systems, most of them, to do the follow-up and the additional work. They also don't know how you're feeling, so you go to the doctor and leave and don't follow back up with them, but you're still not feeling well. How are they going to know? Those are really the three steps. Hugh: I guess it's tricky. We all assume that the doctor knows everything. They tell you something, and it's a tendency for us to want to shut down. What I hear you saying is that we learn to be assertive in talking about ourselves. Is that the context you're talking in? Kelly: We say the best chance is you, the empowered patient. It's all of those. It's the strength of believing in yourself, trusting in your instincts, not being embarrassed. Some of the cultural norms. In the times we grew up, people didn't question their doctor. I'm not sure people are being raised the same way now. I think now is the right time. You know you the best. It's about a partnership with a doctor; it's not about us versus them. It's about creating a partnership between you and them. Hugh: That is a really helpful paradigm because- You called them a detective a minute ago. We have to give them the clues. They depend on us telling them. I have a very good doctor who listens very carefully and spends time and asks me very good questions. Sometimes those are questions about things I have never thought about, but you are helping me think about being prepared in case I wake up and it's not normal. If you are not normal, you wait two weeks, and if it doesn't go away, then you make an appointment. Is that what I heard you say? Kelly: That's exactly right. We also say that if something changes significantly, like you break your leg or you have a really sharp pain or something along those lines, then you don't wait two weeks. It's making sure you understand the difference. Our teaching is about the subtle, persistent changes that hang around that wouldn't necessarily impact your ability to go about your day. Those are the ones you wait two weeks and they usually clear up. Things that are more like the symptom I had was more significant. I had a sharp pain in my head that would come and go, but it was nothing I had ever felt before, very different from my normal and was more dramatic. It wasn't subtle, I should say. I acted quicker than two weeks. Hugh: Why is 15-40 Connection a 501(c)3? Kelly: Essentially because a nonprofit is the best way to get to everybody. Our mission is to educate people on how to detect cancer early. The fact is it wasn't being done before. Now that the issue is raised, you have to build the case to get the education out there. What we were able to do is build the case with funders and people who are interested in the nonprofit space to make a difference and save lives. That is how we landed as a nonprofit segment versus a for-profit who would be selling the education, which is not the motivation of the founder and the other people who work here. Hugh: It's to make it accessible to more people. Kelly: Yes. Hugh: Russell, what are you hearing here? Do you have questions or observations? Russell: That is remarkable. I can think back to a health change that I had when I was working for the IRS. There was some signs. I did not act. In my case, I can speak for myself. I think fear was a factor. Does your education program go to address those things that people may have, these fears that going to the doctor could cause me to miss work or my insurance may not be adequate? Fear is unreasonable often. It doesn't make any sense, yet it is there. Does your program address any of these fears that people may be experiencing or provide a space where people can discuss it? Kelly: Yes. Fear is the #1 issue. People say, I'm afraid to go. If I don't go, it will go away. The reality is that that fear, where it's unfounded is if you catch it early, great. That's a win because you can take care of it. If you don't have anything, that's great, too. Both are celebration points. We do have a natural fear of what the doctor is going to say. We also on the flip side of that want the doctor to say you're okay. Once the doctor says you're fine, we say, Oh, great, even though you still don't feel well, even though the symptoms still persist. You heard them say you're okay, and that's what you want. We call it the get out of jail free card because that is what people are looking for. You have to trust your instincts. You have to trust yourself. A lot of the teaching is about recognizing the obstacles, all that you just outlined, that keep people from going and keep people from getting the early detection because of those obstacles. Russell: Do you have any statistics—I think you might be a source for it—of people who are finding out that they have cancer, let's say late detection? Are there- How many cases are there where people are finding out too late that they could have been treated or the treatment becomes more difficult because they waited? Do you have any of those numbers per chance? Kelly: I don't have them at my fingertips. What I can share with you is one in two men and one in three women will be diagnosed with cancer in their lifetime. Those numbers are staggering. That is about 40%. That is a big number. We need to get as many of those people to detect cancer in stage zero or stage one. We also know the cost is significantly different. We do have data that supports stage one care versus stage four is the difference is probably 300-400%. The other thing is they just started to publish these studies now in the National Journal of Medicine and a few others around. Misdiagnosis is a blind spot that has been ignored for the last 20 years. The misdiagnosis leads to the lack of early detection. The more diagnoses you get that are inaccurate, the longer the pathway is to the correct diagnosis. There has been a lot of studies published on that. But the actual numbers of early versus late haven't found that yet. But we are continuing to see stuff like that pop up. Russell: That is a lot of people, 40% of the population. That is staggering. Is that how it's been historically? Have we seen an increase historically? Kelly: I don't know how long ago it was tracked. I can't answer that. But I know certain cancers are on the rise, some in younger people, like colon cancer and some others. I am not sure to answer your question if it's on the rise. But the number is staggering. And not rising at a percentage increase like the opioid epidemic. It's relatively static from the way the government sees it. I know that. Huge numbers, but not these kind of growth rates that are alarming to people. Hugh: You said with men, it's one in two. That would be us, Russell. Russell: That would be. I get that. The funny thing is because Kelly was plugged into 15-40. Kelly, because you were plugged in there, you were looking at being proactive about this problem and actually going out to solve it. In my case, I just instinctually shied away from it. My boss and her boss had two separate one-way conversations with me to tell me to go to the doctor. They actually had to threaten to fire me before I did it. That is how strong the fear around facing this was. With men in particular, and it doesn't surprise me, we like to be angry and flex our muscles and growl, which is a good mask of fear, to be angry for guys. Kelly: No one looks forward to sitting on a stool in someone's office. It's not a position of power, I like to say. Hugh: No, it's not. Russell, thanks for sharing that story. I guess you went to the doctor then. Russell: I did because they threatened to fire me. It was crazy. Once I found out what was going on with me, I was a lot calmer. I approached it a lot better. I was a lot more optimistic than letting go of it. Because I chewed on it and kicked it around for a while. I had a support system of people around me who were there to help me gather information. Good friends that came. My goddaughter and other friends. They said, “Okay, we are going to go with you. Just listen to the doctor. We are here. We can take notes. We can use your voice recorder on the phone. Just lean into it and listen and share where you are, what's going on.” It was a partnership. It was a team approach. Some of the things that I heard, whoever went with me didn't hear. There were a lot of things that people went with me to these appointments heard that I didn't hear. We were able to gather all of this information because when you sit in the chair, facing the treatment, a lot of times you're overwhelmed with things going on. There is economics, your affairs going forward, how I am actually going to feel. Am I going to be able to go back to my life as it was with work and with family? There are just a ton of uncertainties and a ton of questions that people face. Having people that have gone through it, having the education, having that support network to say, “Look, it's better to face this stuff sooner rather than later, and you're not alone” is critical to getting better. I have recovered fully. I have been in remission. I am approaching six years since the completion. Kelly: Yay, I like those stories. You bring up a good point about examples of people sharing examples. That is our model of education. We use storytelling. We use people who have had cancer diagnoses and gone through the process. They either detected cancer early or they didn't. The different outcomes they had as a result, it really is powerful because it helps people live the situation through other people, which can make it less scary. I appreciate you sharing your story, and I am very happy for your outcome. Russell: The unspoken thing my doctor said: We have some challenges, but he hinted at the fact that if I had come in a bit earlier, it would have been easier to treat. He wasn't sure how things were going to go. They are not always sure. They don't have crystal balls. It's important to get all of that information out there. No detail is too minor. Get that information out there to assess the situation to find out exactly where you are and what steps you can take. Hugh: Kelly, earlier in your dialogue, you talked about the support systems you have. When people find out, there is an emotional side to this. How do you help people there? Kelly: We are really the path that leads to diagnosis. We are trying to encourage and engage and empower people to go through the process to get to the diagnosis. As I had said when we started, there is a lot of groups and organizations that support once the diagnosis is made. That is not our focal point. Our focal point is making sure people get to the doctor and get that diagnosis if indeed that is what is wrong with them so they have more options and better chances for care and better health outcomes. Hugh: Two more things I am thinking about. People like to say, “I'm too busy to do some of this.” How do you encourage people to cut through that excuse and do what's important? Secondly, when they actually make the appointment, how do you empower them to have that meaningful conversation with your doctor? Kelly: An hour today could save you ten hours tomorrow. Busy is busy. Everybody is busy. At the end of the day, getting to the doctor, taking the time today to get the early diagnosis could save you so much time, so much money, and your life quite frankly. It's about prioritization. It's not easy. At the end of the day, how many people prioritize themselves first, especially when you are a parent with children and with a job? But you have to reinforce it as often as possible that to the people who love you, alive is the option. They want you alive, and if it is going to mean that you don't get to make that lunch because you went to the doctor early or you might miss the last meeting of the day, you are not effective if you are not in the meeting at all. Fortunately, that is one thing that is shifting. It does feel there is support out there in corporate wellness and those environments to focus on health. It sounds like even your experience, people were like, “Get to the doctor or you're fired.” I love to hear that because they are prioritizing your health over the bottom line of the company. Not everybody does it. Not everybody works for supportive people. You have to be number one, or the consequences can be significant. Hugh: Wow. Equipping people to have that conversation. Kelly: It doesn't have to be us or them or me or you. It's more about I'm having something I have to deal with, and I need support for me to go do that. It shouldn't be too much to ask, but I know it can be trickier than it sounds. Hugh: But getting there. When you talk to the doctor. I am guilty of when I get to the doctor, it doesn't hurt anymore. Kelly: Yep. Hugh: So I have to have a good recall. This is what I was feeling. I am self-conscious or nervous, so it has surpassed the slight feeling of pain that I had. I guess there is making notes and being prepared for the doctor. What other ways can people be prepared? Kelly: You just touched on something. In advance of the doctor, make sure you write down everything that you experience. Symptoms, changes in your health, that piece. Make sure you make that list in the Notes app or handwrite them. Inevitably, when you get to the situation, you forget half the things. When you are there, make sure that you go through everything and that you don't, even if you are feeling rushed, it's your time in that room. You have to command it. It's that empowerment thing again. I am not done. I haven't shared everything I am feeling. The two other pieces that have been very helpful in the education are: ask them if they don't know what it is, what could it be? It could be this, or it could be that, or something in between. It gives you some framework to work from. Then you say, Okay. What is the path to the answer? You treat the minimal thing they think it probably is. If it doesn't work, when should I feel better? When should I come back? You have a plan on what the next act is, and you're not waiting around for somebody else to reach out to you. In this day and age, you don't traditionally get a follow-up call. The other one I just touched on is when should I feel better? If I get this ten-day antibiotic, on the tenth day, should I feel better? On the fifth day? When should I feel better? What do I do if I don't? Those two things have been powerful statements to keep people in the driver's seat of the process. Hugh: We don't know what questions to ask. That is helpful. Your website is 15-40.org. The logo is 15-40 Connection. Tell us a bit about the website. There is a Donate button. A Contact. You have a blog. What is on the blog? Kelly: To set the stage, our product is education. It's early detection education. We offer through Train the Trainers, through webinars, and through live presentations with panelists. To support the education we have provided, we have a social infrastructure. We are on all social media platforms, and we have a blog. What we do with our blog is enhance and continue to tell the stories of what we have taught. It's everything from last Valentine's day, we had a blog post on the most important relationship is the one with your doctor. We actually just are launching the 12 Days of Early Detection. Each day someone sings one of the days. At the end, on December 22, you will be able to hear the whole 12 Days of Early Detection. Each day is reinforcing our education. That is what we use all of our social platforms and our blog to do. A lot of it also is through storytelling, highlighting stories of people who have had successful health outcomes as a result of our education or because they didn't have our education, they value it and want to make sure other people have it. Hugh: Start the Conversation. Know the Power of You. Know Your Role. Be Informed. FAQs. The Three Steps Detect. Remember You're Great. Two-Week Rule. Share with Your Doctor. Learn from People Like You. Get Involved. Education & Outreach. Share Your Story. Events. Donate. Find out About Us. You have a team for the marathon. 2018 Boston Marathon. Kelly: We do. We have seven runners who are collectively already over $25,000 in funds raised. That is super exciting. Hugh: That's great. I ran for the Leukemia/Lymphoma Society raising money for cancer. Kelly: For Boston? Hugh: No, I ran Atlanta. Yuengling in Virginia Beach. It is a grand event. They give you a name of somebody who is in cancer treatment who you run for. On your website, you can click on that and find out about joining the team. Is that the idea? Kelly: Our team is full. We have filled all seven slots. You can certainly support our team. Three of our seven runners are cancer survivors. They are out pushing the mission forward and empowering themselves and running a marathon and supporting early detection education, which is amazing. Hugh: I love it. You are sitting in the office? Kelly: I am. Hugh: You're in Boston. Kelly: We are about 35 minutes west of Boston. Hugh: West. Tell us about your staff, your founder, and your board. Kelly: Our founder, Joe Coghlin and his family. It is a good story. Jim, his best friend, Mark Ungerer. Jim said, “He is my best friend, second only to my wife.” How romantic, right? Mark lost his son at the age of 15 to leukemia. Mark, as a lasting legacy to his son, started a successful golf tournament. He funded research to help continue to find cures for leukemia. Mark, years after this tournament started, said to Jim, “If something ever happens to me, would you keep this going?” Jim said, “Of course, I will, but you'll outlive me.” Unfortunately, shortly after that, Mark died. Jim had a commitment to this tournament. He continued to fund the research. He is a very successful businessman. He decided to check out the ROI. For all the funds that were being put into research, what was the outcome? As a result of some of that work, he found this statistic, which showed that there had been an issue around delayed diagnosis and the impact of delayed diagnosis on cancer survival rates. Once he found that and recognized that nobody was focused on it, he met with a family and said, “This is a calling. We can't let this be. We have to do something about it.” That's how 15-40 was founded about eight years ago. We have an active board. We just had a board meeting last night. We have eight members at this point. We are actively pursuing additional board members as we scale and build new curriculum. Our staff has eight people who work across all categories: development, marketing, education, outreach to support the mission and to scale the mission. Hugh: That is music to our ears, isn't it, Russ? Russell and I reframe the word “consultant” to “WayFinder.” We don't give people fish; we teach them how to fish. We work with many nonprofits, and boards are not as active as they ought to be. Russell's specialty is funding. We think about donors and grants, but there are six more streams of funding. It sounds like you have a good thing going, a really solid platform. How many people like you in the office? There is nobody like you, but how many others? Kelly: There is eight total people who work in the office each day. A lot of us are out of the office because our education is we are out in schools, in corporate wellness, on college campuses. We are spread all over. There is eight total in the moment. Hugh: Do they all wear black furs to work? Kelly: Exactly. This is to celebrate our 12 Days of Early Detection. I wore a fancy jacket so that I could sing. Stay tuned. Watch our Facebook page. Hugh: You are going to sing. Your Facebook page is 1540 Connection. Twitter is @1540connection. YouTube is The1540Connection. Instagram is 1540connection. No hyphen. Just written out. Kelly: Each day, we will post. Everybody is singing a day of early detection. Hugh: Love it. That is clever. Russell, we are on the last stretch of our interview. I bet you got some observations and closing questions for Kelly. Russell: I love the fact that everybody is cross-trained and understands everybody's function and role and taking that responsibility onto yourselves. It's marvelous. Spreading the wealth and spreading the joy. I love what you're doing. I'd be interested to know more about your Train the Trainer process. That is something that should be spread beyond Boston. I think it should be spread around the country so that people understand what they are looking at. Kelly: Because of technology, we were able to do a Train the Trainer in Florida. We are national. Our feet on the street is here in Boston, so we have deeper traction here. We are definitely moving across the Mississippi and trying to hit all four corners and the center of the U.S. and make sure everybody gets the education. Hugh: One of your tabs says Get Involved. If people are not in Boston, how do they get involved? Kelly: So many ways. You can get involved through social media. You can share our story with your network. You can bring our education through your schools or corporations. You can also sign up for Train the Trainer. You can bring us to your college campus. It really is endless. All the opportunities are posted there. There is also an email capability to tell us what you're thinking. We are nimble, so we are constantly looking for new ideas. We welcome all ideas. Hugh: Amazing. So Kelly, as we wrap up here, is there something we haven't covered that you want to share? What parting thought do you have to leave with our listeners? Kelly: As our founder says, “Health is wealth.” At the end of the day, if you are not healthy, everything is a struggle. We have the capacity to get well. Most people can access a doctor or a hospital. Taking the extra time to do that if something changes in your health can be a life-saving decision. Our founder says often, “Don't be selfish. Think about all the people who love you. If you make this decision and you are negatively impacted as a result, they are, too.” That is a strong statement. It's not just about you. It's about everybody around you. I have young kids. I am being wheeled into the hospital with a ten- and eight-year-old. That is not an easy pill to swallow. You want to come out and make sure that you are there for them. I think that is the key component of all of this. Make it a priority because at the end of the day, nothing else matters. If you don't have your health, the rest is not going to happen. Hugh: Amazing. Russell, those are good words, aren't they? Russell: They are wonderful. Thank you for making this information available to a lot of people. It's a worthwhile cause. Access to information and resources is critical, especially in today's climate of rising costs. The thing that I would say to people as a closing thought if you got some things going on and you are stopping to think, Well, I don't know if I have the money or the resources to pay for it, I will point out that I have never seen a U-Haul behind a hearse. Dead people don't pay bills. Hugh: Kelly, thank you for making time. I know you have a lot of things to do. Thank you for sharing your story with all of our listeners. Kelly: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Title: Pick Up the Damn Phone Means No Cold Calling! Listen to Joanne-of-the-Nice-Voice Explain. Date: August 25, 2017 Attendee and Guest:  Kelly Coughlin, CEO, BankBosun; Joanne Black, Author and Consultant, [Boatswain’s whistle] That’s the Bosun’s whistle calling you bankers to attention.  Listen, compete, win. Intro: Kelly Coughlin is a CPA and CEO of BankBosun, a management consulting firm helping bank C Level Officers navigate risk and discover reward. He is the host of the syndicated audio podcast, BankBosun.com. Kelly brings over 25 years of experience with companies like PWC, Lloyds Bank, and Merrill Lynch. On the podcast Kelly interviews key executives in the banking ecosystem to provide bank C suite officers, risk management, technology, and investment ideas and solutions to help them navigate risks and discover rewards. And now your host, Kelly Coughlin. Greetings, this is Kelly Coughlin, CEO of BankBosun, helping bank C- suite execs navigate risks and discover reward in a sea of threats and opportunities. It wasn’t so long ago, that there were really only three ways to communicate with people: the mail, in-person, and on the phone. That was it. That’s the way it was only 40 years ago. Imagine that…no texting, no social media, no cell phones, no internet, no email…just 40 years ago. Today, we have all these new different ways to communicate…and frequently, when something “new” is introduced in the market, it gets overused and misused. Why? Because we lose sight of the purpose of the new concept and focus simply on using the new concept. In communications today, I will say the reliance upon binary digits…technology…is overused and misused today. As most of you know, we at BankBosun are huge fans of using the human voice as a way to more effectively communicate your message…whether it be your company mission and vision, your product features and benefits, or your assessment of the market landscape and environment, the power of the human voice to communicate empathy, energy and emotion is one of the strongest powers as human beings we have. And if we don’t use that power, we miss a huge opportunity to connect and communicate with our tribe. We like to say, while the pen is mightier than the sword, the voice is stronger than both. Use it. The new communication tactics today are terrific and I use them constantly and consistently. But in terms of effectiveness, nothing compares with the sound of the human voice…I fully recognize that it is not efficient, and that is why many companies founded in the digital era have adopted a business model that minimizes or sometimes completely eliminates the human voice…Facebook, Google, Uber…have you ever tried to get an Uber customer service agent on the phone…forget it…it just won’t happen. This audio interview is an example of the power of the human voice. I posit that if you only read the transcript of this interview, you will miss a huge portion of the underlying message. See how I said huge there? You would miss that if you just read it…it would sound huge…If you only read, you will miss the guest’s energy, empathy and emotion. You just don’t get that with the written word. Oh, and did I mention people don’t read anymore…they don’t. If you send a written piece longer than three quarters of a page it most likely won’t ever get read. Over 65% of written documents over one page in length get put down for later reading…and over 50% of those docs never get read…period. But if you listen, you get to hear a whole new dimension of communication. And you technical people that think your products and services are way too complex and need to be communicated with a written doc or flow chart or a Powerpoint. Wrong. You especially need to tell your story with your voice. I am not suggesting you abandon your written material. But frankly the more complex your offering the more you need to be able to tell your story with your voice…if you can’t, you need to learn your story better. My guest today is also a strong advocate of using the human voice. She is a thought leader, author, and consultant.  And frankly, she is the genuine article.  She has written a number of books, one is called No More Cold Calling: The Breakthrough System That Will Leave Your Competition in the Dust.  And then another one, Pick Up the Damn Phone!: How People, Not Technology, Seal the Deal.  She is America’s leading authority on referral selling.  She is not bragging though, her publisher gave her that moniker and she runs with it, and runs with it hard.  And now she is going to run with it at BankBosun to help our community and regional banks compete and win, not through cold calling or the traditional tactics like getting referrals from centers of influence, rather, she is quite the contrary and thinker who believes no sales person should ever have to cold call or send cold emails.  Let’s hear about that.  But what I like most about our guest, Joanne Black, she has a nice soothing voice, especially, compared to my rough and gruff voice.  And so, I am going to welcome Joanne and hope she is on the line so we can all hear her great wisdom and insight and hear her especially nice voice.  Kelly: Joanne, are you on the line? Joanne: Oh, I wouldn’t miss this for the world, Kelly. This is fabulous. Kelly: Thank you Joanne for taking the time.  I know you are on the west coast of California, is that correct? Joanne: I am in the San Francisco Bay area so it’s a beautiful sunny day here and we haven’t had any earthquakes in a while and I hope that continues. Kelly: Excellent!  Well, Joanne, are you ready to get right into it? Joanne: I am always ready.  Kelly: Alright. Well, Joanne, I am going to start out with a challenging question here.  I am going to start out by asking you to reconcile two seemingly contrary and opposing messages that are the titles of two of your books.  One book says, Pick Up the Damn Phone and the other says, No More Cold Calling.  Well, what do you want us to do, call or not call? Joanne: Oh, I want you to call but only if you have gotten a referral. The reason I wrote that second book is, I truly was alarmed by how so many people depend on technology and not only depend on it, I think they hide behind it.  And instead of actually having conversations they are depending on emails, on e-books, on social media to get people’s attention.  But the titles may seem like they are not aligned but they actually are. To only wants you to pick up the damn phone, when you have done your research online, when you have talked to people and then when you have been introduced to the person you want to meet or you are going to pick up the damn phone to talk to some of your colleagues, to talk to your clients and ask them for other people you should be meeting.  That’s what the phone is for, not to cold call.  Kelly: Well, are people afraid of the phone these days or are people afraid to contact people? Joanne: It depends on who your clients are.   So, we need to communicate as our clients communicate, and if they communicate by text then text them and set up a time to talk to them.  But you have to have the conversation when you are asking for a referral.  You know, you can’t ask for a referral in any digital format.  That’s my point of view and I am sticking to it.  And the reason is that a referral is very personal and before I can introduce you or I can introduce any banker I need to have a conversation.  I need to know the business reason why I am going to make the introduction. Because when I refer someone my reputation is on the line.  I need to depend on you to take care of my client just as I would.  So, therefore, I need to have that conversation.  I also need to equip you with a language to introduce me.   And it’s not just because I am a nice person.  It’s not just because I have written two books.  It’s not just because I have had my company for 21 years.  It’s not just because you say I have a nice voice.  I mean, that’s not business reasons for the introduction.  There has to be something I do that’s going to resonate with the person you are introducing me to that’s going to help them solve a problem.  Kelly: Now, you are kind of picky about using the term referral, why don’t you define what you think a referral is and then what a referral is not. Joanne: Well, it is what I know, not what I think.  But a referral means that you receive an introduction.  Let me contrast that to my definition of a cold call, any cold outreach, whether you are sending an email, whether you are on social media, whether you are just popping in to a client.  I mean, I don’t know if anybody does that anymore, but some do.   A cold call versus a referral, a cold outreach means that you are contacting someone who doesn’t know you and doesn’t expect to hear from you.  That is ice cold, you are definitely interrupting them. They don’t know you. And in many times there are actually circumspect whether that person really said that you should talk or not, a lot that goes on there.  So when a referral gets you the introduction you always get the meetings, because you have been introduced by someone your prospect knows and respects.  Make sense? Kelly: Yes it does.  I’m interested in the term outreach.  I’ve been in the sales business one way or another many many years and it’s only been in the last eight years maximum that the term outreach has become popular.  It is just selling, correct?    Is it just making a contact, whether it be outreach on the phone, outreach on email, outreach in person, it’s selling, correct? Joanne: I don’t agree.  So here is the thing, I’m want to go back a whole bunch of years when I did work in the banking industry.  I worked for a makeup performance and my clients were all banks, mainly community banks, and at that time if you wanted to get information on a bank you would call their corporate communications department and they mailed you an annual report.  That’s how we learnt about a company.  We did not have the internet and when the internet first became frequently used, I’m going to say mid 90s, maybe, when people were contacted all over the world and then it went from there. We now have many different ways of reaching people so it’s not just calling someone to get information.  It’s not just making a phone call.   And, by the way, I think those times were probably a lot simpler, but there are so many ways of contacting people now.  And that’s what I mean by outreach, because it could be by phone, in person, social media, email, I can’t think of anything else, but there probably is, but there are just so many avenues we have now to reach people. So that’s why I call it outreach, and I don’t think it’s selling. Kelly:  I think probably selling implies doing more talking than listening. But if an outreach is listening and talking then that probably makes more sense to use the term outreach. Joanne: I think it is very much about building relationships and expanding connections, and those lead to sales.  Here is what happens. I have been exposed to several people recently who have said to me, I don’t know if I should go to that event because I have been to things like this in the past and I don’t get any leads.  Don’t say that to me, I say that’s always a wrong approach.  We need to be out there meeting people all the time, whether it’s for breakfast, for lunch, for a beer, whether it’s part of a golf tournament, a tennis tournament, whether we are going to our kid’s...to their baseball or soccer games, we need to be out there all the time meeting people, getting to know people, sharing ideas.  That to me is what selling is about, because the number one reason that people do business with us, because they trust us.  That doesn’t happen overnight.  It does happen when you get a referral introduction.  For me, sales is about having a conversation and being clear about what their issues are before ever talking about what we do.   Kelly: Let’s talk about account based sales. You seem to spend a lot of time, a lot of energy on account based sales activity. What’s your definition? Why is that important and what’s the alternative to that? Joanne: It’s the old saying that there is nothing really new again.  So account based sales is a newer term used for those of us who have named accounts.  We have a certain book of business, a certain book of accounts that we are responsible for meeting with and ultimately selling to.  It’s a book of business, period, named accounts.  And as bankers then we know we need to meet these companies and talk to them and build relationships with them. That’s what it’s about. That’s account based selling.  It’s just a new term but there is nothing new about it.  The opposite is, so many companies now have people on the phone all the time, inside sales reps, people calling and wanting to open up a conversation.  They don’t build relationships.  They are the ones making a hundred dollars a week, a day or whatever it is, and maybe talking to a few people.  That is not what I’m talking about and that’s not where bankers are playing either.  It’s not where I play.  Account based sellers build relationships.  That’s the differentiation in the term.  Kelly:  Do you distinguish between retention of business or for cross selling, up-selling purposes? Joanne: One of the downfalls that I see is that in so many organizations, that we do business with a client, we close that business and then we move on.  To me, when you talk about cross selling and up-selling, it’s always listening.  So, we get in there with one product or service because most of these companies have more than one bank they are doing business with and through developing the relationship and getting to know them better, yes, our goal is to find other opportunities within that client.   We may or may not, or it could be that a bank that they were doing business with, maybe they changed bankers and their client doesn’t like this new banker and suddenly reaches out to you because they like you. It’s critical to stay in touch with people.  And yes, if the door opens and you see an opportunity to talk about another product or service, you do that, but more importantly, we need to be asking those clients for referrals to other people they know. And that is not happening.  It’s happening yes, ad hoc, but it’s not a discipline.  It’s not systematic.  And it happens but we can’t depend on that.   Kelly: Okay, you make a pretty bold statement in some of your work.  One of these statements says this, Why closing is never a problem in account based selling. Why is that? Joanne: First thing, it’s never the problem, it doesn’t matter what you do.  So, when people say to me, I’ve had a sales leader say to me, Joanne, my team can’t close, can you help me?  Well, that’s my time to step back because it is never about closing.  It’s always about something earlier in the sales process that was forgotten. That was over looked.  If we have done our true discovery and we built relationships with all the people who are going to be involved in the decision, that we found out their timeline, we found out what they need, we’ve made a lot of check ins. I don’t even like to call it that, but we are in touch, then closing should be like one foot in front of the other.  Closing is never the problem.  I am going to give you an example.  I realized that I missed a step, very recently, and I knew the deadline was short so I wasn’t even sure about that. But a client was having a meeting and they were bringing in their account executive and suddenly they wanted to expand it to a bigger group so now we are looking at like 25 people instead of 10.  The mistake I made was, I did not have the conversation with the right person about what that would cost them when they expanded that number and I would have made a recommendation to start with a smaller group.  The group that really would get the most benefit from referrals, start with them first.  Let’s get proof, let’s get results and then we can expand it.  So, I missed that step. Now, as a result, first of all, the date didn’t work and second, it was too big. And it will happen because they do these quarterly business reviews and bring the whole team together then.  And now I have to do a lot more work on my end which I am willing to do and we have already outlined some next steps to bring a referral program into a quarterly business review with a smaller team. So, I made that mistake.  It’s called, sometimes...I have an author friend who calls it "happy ears”.  You know, when a prospect or a client just says, oh, this is fabulous, yes we need to do it.  This absolutely meets what our challenges are.  I never thought about it that way, you have given me so many insights   and good advice, on and on and on.  We have “happy ears”, and they go sure, they are going to do business with us.    That’s not business, that’s “happy ears”, and that was my downfall. Kelly. Yeah.  You make another statement here, How digital dependence derails account based selling teams.  I want to give some background in this question.  At BankBosun, we believe that audiocasting is a very effective way to communicate your message, whether it be a company message, a product message, service message, a human voice communicates with energy, empathy and emotion and you just can’t get that out of the written word unless you are writing like Yeats or Shakespeare, most people really don’t read anymore anyway.  So, we like to use digital audio to capture this, like we are doing today.  In my interview with you, we get the emotion, we hear your wonderful voice, we hear your energy and then we envision banks would share that message with their referrals or current customers or prospective customers.  I am not at all suggesting that banks rely upon this and be dependent upon it, but do you think that tactic challenges your statement, digital dependence derails account based selling teams? Joanne: No, if digital is the only outreach then I would say yes.  The point in that post and really the message in my second book, Pick up the Damn Phone, is that if we sit behind technology and we rely only on technology, whether it’s audios, videos, emails, e-books, whatever it is, webinars, podcasts that we are not developing the relationships we need to develop when we have a conversation, and that’s what I mean by digital dependence.  Now, audio is one tool, video is another.  I just wrote a post, in fact, about why video doesn’t work for me.  You see, everybody has a different way of accessing and understanding information.  For me, I can read way faster than I can listen, of course then, I have to put in my blue tooth or my earbuds.  You know, whatever I’m doing, it’s one other block for me.  Now, I agree that there is nothing that replaces hearing a human voice, that’s why we need to talk to people and have conversations but we need to communicate in different modalities.  Some people love videos, some love audio, and many people love audio because they put it on their phones and can listen in the car.  If it’s the written word, there is Infographics.  Some people love those.  Infographics gives me hives. I just don’t know where to look first.  I get, you know, where is this?  It’s like charts and graphs. I want someone to explain it to me.  That’s my learning style.  We need to use various modalities in digital but then we need to have an actual conversation.  And when I talked about digital dependence is there are so many people who are not having conversation. They are relying on digital for everything. Kelly: Got it. I would like to reserve part two, if we could, to talking about strategy and tactics on getting referrals, could we to that in part two, do you think? Joanne: Well, of course we can and I look forward to it. Kelly: Okay, I want to end part one with, I find it interesting, the contrary, and you are, that you use the term, circles of influence and many of us use the term centers of influence, is there a difference between how we use the terms?  I actually kind of like your term better. It implies, large, diameter, circumference, wider in scope whereas a center implies something that’s closed.  It’s got a door and only few people are allowed in it, closed, narrow. What are your thoughts on that? Joanne: I think they are interchangeable.  I mean, truthfully, with everything I say is maybe I meant center and I said circle. You know, it’s really the same thing. We understand these are the people who would most likely to give us referrals over time.  And that’s centers of influence, circles of influence, it’s exactly the same. Kelly: Okay.  Well, with your permission, unless you have some kind of trade name, ownership and you are going to charge me every quarter every time I use it, I am going to start using it. Joanne: Oh, fantastic Kelly, please do.   Kelly: Joanne, I would like to know how bankers can get in touch with you.  You could put a plug in for your books again and any other thing.  I think we are doing a giveaway on the book, No More Cold Calling: The Break Through System That Will Leave Your Competition in the Dust.  Is that correct? Joanne: That’s correct.  The way to reach me is, Joanne, J o a n n e, @nomorecoldcalling.com and the first 10 people who send me an email and put in the subject line “listened to your podcast with Kelly” will receive a book.  If you would like to chat and hear a human voice, it is area code 415-461-8763, 4154618763, and that’s Pacific Time. I invite you to visit my website, nomorecoldcalling.com.  And yes, both of my books are available on Amazon, on Kindle as well as in hardcover for No More Cold Calling and paperback for Pick Up the Damn Phone Kelly: Very nice, sweet.  Joanne, thank you so much and we will be in touch about scheduling part two which is “the circles of influence and how to get them to work for you.”                                                   Joanne: Terrific, thanks Kelly. Kelly: Okay Joanne, thank you, good bye. Outro: We want to thank you for listening to the syndicated audio program, BankBosun.com The audio content is produced by Kelly Coughlin, Chief Executive Officer of BankBosun, LLC;  and syndicated by Seth Greene, Market Domination LLC, with the help of Kevin Boyle. Video content is produced by The Guildmaster Studio, Keenan Bobson Boyle. The voice introduction is me, Karim Kronfli. The program is hosted by Kelly Coughlin. If you like this program, please tell us. If you don’t, please tell us how we can improve it. Now, some disclaimers. Kelly is licensed with the Minnesota State Board of Accountancy as a Certified Public Accountant. The views expressed here are solely those of Kelly Coughlin and his guests in their private capacity and do not in any other way represent the views of any other agent, principal, employer, employee, vendor or supplier.