Podcasts about kelly yeah

Al and Kelly talk about Ratopia Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:02:24: What Have We Been Up To 00:17:46: Game News 00:25:17: News Games 00:36:08: Ratopia 01:02:56: Outro Links Tales of Seikyu Early Access Sugardew Island Sprinklers Update Outlanders “The Culinry Diaries” DLC Turnip Boy Steals The Mall Cubified Turnip Boy Plush Everdream Valley VR Contact Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:31) Al: Hello, farmers, and welcome to another episode of the harvest season. (0:00:34) Al: My name is Al. (0:00:36) Kelly: And my name is Kelly. (0:00:38) Al: And we are here today to talk about Cottage Core Games. (0:00:42) Al: Woo! (0:00:42) Kelly: Woo! (0:00:45) Al: Uh, welcome back, Kelly. (0:00:47) Al: Always good to have you. (0:00:48) Kelly: It’s always fun to be back. (0:00:50) Kelly: I feel like we talked so recently and yet so long ago. (0:00:55) Kelly: It really wasn’t that long ago. (0:00:56) Al: Let’s have a look. (0:00:57) Al: Your last episode was “Grimoire Groves”, and that was in March. (0:01:01) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:01:02) Al: For two months. (0:01:04) Al: Hmm, I have not played that game since that episode. (0:01:07) Kelly: I completed everything. (0:01:09) Al: Hmm. (0:01:10) Kelly: Everything, everything. (0:01:12) Al: Impressive. (0:01:12) Kelly: And then I put the game down and never picked it back up again. (0:01:14) Al: Hmm, fair. (0:01:16) Al: That’s how I play most games, to be fair. (0:01:16) Kelly: It was fun. (0:01:19) Kelly: Me too. (0:01:19) Kelly: But usually I don’t go full completionist mode. (0:01:23) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:01:24) Kelly: I pick things that I want to complete (0:01:26) Kelly: or give myself goals. (0:01:27) Kelly: Otherwise, I kind of lose motivation sometimes. (0:01:30) Al: Fair enough (0:01:32) Al: And then you were on the fields of then you were on the fields of mystery out before that. Have you played the update? (0:01:32) Kelly: But I was determined. (0:01:37) Kelly: No. (0:01:38) Kelly: I really enjoyed the portion that I played, (0:01:42) Kelly: but I decided that was enough and I’m just (0:01:44) Kelly: going to wait for the full game. (0:01:46) Al: I have done the same also. I was really tempted to jump in in the last update, but I’m like, (0:01:52) Kelly: Mm-hmm yep, that’s why I am I ended up picking up Sunhaven instead (0:01:52) Al: “No, let’s not do it. Let’s not do it. Don’t ruin it for yourself. Wait for the full game.” (0:02:00) Al: Yes. Well, let’s get into that then. So, just before we get into that, (0:02:02) Kelly: So I was like, you know what that’s a completed game (0:02:08) Al: we’re going to talk about Ratopia, this episode. Ratopia, this episode, because it has just come (0:02:14) Al: out in 1.0. (0:02:16) Al: Kelly has previously played it, so I thought we would talk about that. (0:02:21) Al: Before that, obviously, we’ll have our regular news. (0:02:25) Al: But first of all, Kelly, what have you been up to? (0:02:28) Kelly: “Playing Sunhaven.” (0:02:29) Al: I have questions. (0:02:30) Kelly: Woo! (0:02:31) Kelly: I also got 15 yards of dirt delivered to my driveway (0:02:34) Kelly: so I could fix my backyard. (0:02:36) Kelly: So that’s– (0:02:39) Al: Why is it measured in distance? (0:02:44) Kelly: I don’t have that answer. (0:02:46) Al: So, presumably, it’s like a set thickness, right? (0:02:47) Kelly: Do you know how I had to figure out what 15 yards of dirt was, (0:02:50) Kelly: Al? (0:02:50) Kelly: I had to go on YouTube and watch a video of a dump truck (0:02:53) Kelly: delivering 15 yards of dirt to someone’s driveway. (0:02:59) Kelly: I guess? (0:03:01) Kelly: Because they also do like– (0:03:01) Al: You’re the one that’s had it delivered! (0:03:03) Kelly: yeah, Al, this was through Facebook Market. (0:03:06) Kelly: This is just, I don’t know, the standard measurement (0:03:08) Kelly: that they use, though, because it’s cubic yards and cubic feet (0:03:11) Kelly: are used for soil. (0:03:12) Al: Oh, so it’s cubic yards, not yards. (0:03:17) Kelly: I don’t know, because they only said yards. (0:03:19) Al: Because that’s a bit– because cubic yards is a vol– (0:03:23) Al: Yeah, so it sounds like they’re just automatically (0:03:24) Kelly: It’s probably cubic yards, and I just never considered it. (0:03:25) Al: shortening it then, because cubic yards is a volume. (0:03:28) Al: That’s how you measure something like soil. (0:03:28) Kelly: Yes. (0:03:29) Kelly: Yes, that’s how I do my soil. (0:03:31) Kelly: I do soil calculations in cubic yards. (0:03:34) Kelly: I just didn’t put two and two together because it just (0:03:37) Kelly: straight up said yards. (0:03:38) Al: Yeah, that’s just laziness, I think, on behalf of people selling. (0:03:42) Kelly: Yeah. (0:03:43) Kelly: But no, I literally watched YouTube videos on dirt delivery (0:03:46) Kelly: to figure out how much dirt this would be. (0:03:48) Al: Although, I also have a question about that, because this is a thing that Americans do (0:03:55) Al: a lot, is you measure things by volume, when that can be very inaccurate for certain things. (0:03:58) Kelly: Yes. Yeah. Yes. (0:04:02) Al: It’s all very well and good measuring liquids by volume, because they stay the same. You’re (0:04:08) Kelly: Yeah. (0:04:08) Al: not going to add extra air in between grains of water. Yeah. Yeah. (0:04:10) Kelly: No, listen, I do a lot of baking. (0:04:14) Kelly: All of my baking is done by weight. (0:04:18) Kelly: I convert recipes all the time. (0:04:18) Al: Yeah. (0:04:22) Kelly: I’m pretty sure that they do it this way so that they can, like… (0:04:24) Kelly: Okay, this is free dirt, so it’s like… (0:04:26) Al: Okay, yeah. (0:04:28) Kelly: trash as it is. (0:04:30) Kelly: But it’s like, clearly they want to do it by volume and not weight (0:04:32) Kelly: so that they can give me things like a two foot long concrete rock (0:04:36) Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. (0:04:36) Kelly: inside of my dirt pile. (0:04:40) Kelly: You know, like, that’s… (0:04:42) Kelly: I don’t know about the other things, (0:04:44) Kelly: because I’m assuming when people buy nice soil, (0:04:46) Kelly: they’re not getting giant rocks in their nice soil. (0:04:49) Al: Yeah, I. (0:04:50) Kelly: But I think… I think it’s… it’s a… (0:04:54) Kelly: I think that’s part of it. I don’t know. (0:04:56) Al: You weren’t buying high quality topside, well, that’s for sure. (0:04:58) Kelly: You know, it’s free dirt. (0:05:00) Al: But yeah, the baking one is funny, right? (0:05:02) Al: Because I understand the want to do it in volume, right? (0:05:05) Al: Like there’s a lot of cooking that I do (0:05:07) Al: where I do it by volume because it’s quicker, right? (0:05:08) Kelly: Yes, yeah. (0:05:09) Al: Like I quite often I quite often will make like (0:05:13) Al: I do like oat breakfast cookies quite often and I’ll just I’ll just use one (0:05:19) Al: of my measuring spoons and I’ll just like throw half a cup into a bowl, right? (0:05:24) Kelly: - Yeah. (0:05:24) Al: Because it’s quick and it’s dirty and it (0:05:26) Al: doesn’t really matter because if it’s slightly off, it’s fine. (0:05:27) Kelly: You’re getting cookies no matter what. (0:05:29) Al: Exactly, right? (0:05:30) Kelly: - Yeah, exactly. (0:05:31) Al: It does the job. (0:05:31) Al: But like when you’re if I’m if I’m baking a cake, like, you know, I’m I’m weighing (0:05:36) Al: out that flour, right, I cannot but you’ll see recipes online all the time. (0:05:36) Kelly: - Yep, yeah, oh yeah. (0:05:40) Al: And it’s like a cup of flour. (0:05:42) Al: And I’m like, first of all, first of all, there is no single standard cup. (0:05:46) Al: Did you know our cups are different than your cups? (0:05:48) Kelly: Yes. That’s what pisses me off. That’s what pisses me off when like a lot of good baking (0:05:49) Al: Fun, isn’t that super fun to learn about after I’ve spent following American (0:05:54) Al: recipes for years? (0:05:59) Kelly: recipes will include both the the grams or whatever ounces and then also yeah the ones (0:06:02) Al: Yes. You click the little button and it will change them. Yes, it’s nice. I like that. (0:06:09) Kelly: that don’t are so questionable because it’s like well did you pack the flour when you put in the (0:06:14) Al: Yeah, exactly. (0:06:15) Kelly: the cup but do you (0:06:18) Kelly: do our cups match yeah it’s very frustrating it’s very I do a lot of (0:06:20) Al: How irritated is your flower? (0:06:26) Kelly: math when I do baking so it’s very interesting I guess (0:06:28) Al: And this is why I don’t do much baking, because I like cooking where I can just throw things in (0:06:35) Al: and it’ll taste good. And if it doesn’t taste good, I add in something else and it tastes good now. (0:06:41) Al: But baking, if you muck up the measurements, you’re getting a pile of mush. (0:06:42) Kelly: That’s, yeah, I will say, I am definitely doing like a dirty sourdough at the moment for the starter because I used to be very anal and I would measure everything out. (0:06:55) Kelly: And after like, I guess four or five years of doing sourdough starters, I just like, I understand what the consistency needs to be. (0:07:04) Al: Yeah, yeah, that’s very different. (0:07:06) Al: If you’re doing the same thing all the time, you know what it needs to be, (0:07:08) Kelly: Yeah, but there’s definitely some. (0:07:10) Al: and you just get used to that. (0:07:12) Kelly: There are some things that I kind of like mess around with in baking where I think other people might not. (0:07:16) Kelly: And it’s like in the end, it still tastes great. (0:07:20) Kelly: And it’s my little science experiment, you know? (0:07:22) Al: Yeah, I know. For sure. (0:07:24) Kelly: But no, I love cooking and baking for the two different reasons. (0:07:28) Kelly: Like one is my little science chemistry set. (0:07:32) Kelly: And the other one is like throw whatever the hell you want into a pan and see what happens. (0:07:34) Al: Yeah, I like the idea of baking and I sit with a pack of flour in my cupboard and I (0:07:42) Al: watch as it goes out of date, because it’s just like, it’s a whole other mindset you (0:07:49) Al: have to be in before you can actually realistically do that. And that, yeah. I’ve had a recipe (0:07:50) Kelly: - Yes. (0:07:55) Kelly: - Yeah, it’s a different commitment. (0:07:57) Al: for like a specific kind of flatbread for months and I’ve not done it yet. And that’s (0:08:04) Al: all for baking. That’s just bread. (0:08:06) Kelly: Yeah, yeah. (0:08:07) Kelly: No, I’ve been meaning to make a brioche bread for months, (0:08:12) Kelly: and I just keep putting it off because I’m like, (0:08:14) Kelly: I don’t want to deal with it. (0:08:14) Al: There’s so much brain space. (0:08:16) Al: Anyway, Sunhaven. (0:08:17) Kelly: Yes, Sun Even has been a lot of fun. (0:08:20) Al: Pardon me, that’s what we were talking about. (0:08:23) Kelly: I like the different mechanics that they’ve added into it. (0:08:26) Kelly: I enjoy having magic. (0:08:27) Al: Yep. Interesting. (0:08:28) Kelly: I wouldn’t say it’s like the most thrilling farming game. (0:08:32) Kelly: I’ve ever played, but I think it’s overwhelming in a way that keeps my attention. (0:08:38) Kelly: Like having the different farms in different areas. (0:08:42) Al: It’s quite story based as well, isn’t it? (0:08:43) Kelly: Yes, yes, there’s a lot. (0:08:45) Al: How are you finding that? (0:08:47) Kelly: Um, it’s good. (0:08:49) Kelly: I don’t always pay attention to stories and games, so I’m not the best person. (0:08:54) Al: Yeah, same. (0:08:57) Kelly: I will say sometimes I look over to the characters, though, and have my eyes coped at one, I think. (0:09:03) Kelly: You guys don’t have that much clothes on. (0:09:04) Al: I’ve had, I backed this game on Kickstarter and I’ve had it in my Steam library now for (0:09:14) Al: a couple of years. I’ve not done anything with it. I have not, no. I think part of my (0:09:16) Kelly: Have you played it? (0:09:21) Al: problem is there’s like a time frame after a game comes out where if I don’t play a game (0:09:26) Al: in that time period I’m probably never playing it. (0:09:28) Kelly: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and that’s hard because you have games that like you want to play and also (0:09:35) Al: Let me tell you how many games have come out this year, purely farming games. We are currently (0:09:41) Al: at 20. 20 games have come out this year so far. No, actually I’m wrong. 22. No, 24. 25. (0:09:51) Al: 25 games that I am tracking on this game, on this podcast, by the 10th of May. There’s (0:09:54) Kelly: By May. (0:09:59) Al: more coming out in May. There’s another three on the list that are releasing this month. (0:10:03) Kelly: Are they flooding the market? (0:10:06) Al: It’s the Stardew Effect. We’re just at that time period. We are, what is this, eight years (0:10:08) Kelly: It is. (0:10:10) Al: after Stardew got popular? So just everybody’s finishing up their Stardew clones. (0:10:12) Kelly: Yeah. (0:10:18) Kelly: That is very true. (0:10:19) Kelly: And unfortunately, Sunhaven does fall into that. (0:10:24) Kelly: But again, I think it’s not the most unique farming game I’ve (0:10:28) Kelly: ever played, but I do like some of the things that they’ve added. (0:10:31) Kelly: I also just find it comforting. (0:10:33) Kelly: I like a good micromanagy game. (0:10:36) Al: Yeah, yeah, I’ll talk about mine in a minute. (0:10:38) Al: But, yeah, I totally agree with that. (0:10:40) Al: I wonder. (0:10:40) Kelly: And I do like that you don’t spend energy. (0:10:44) Al: Oh, yeah, so we’re going to have to we’re (0:10:46) Al: definitely going to have to talk about this game then (0:10:48) Al: because I am also playing a game which doesn’t have energy. (0:10:54) Kelly: It’s a fun mechanic to like, not worry about. (0:10:54) Al: And that is. (0:10:57) Al: Yeah. (0:10:59) Al: I am very much enjoying it. (0:11:02) Kelly: It’s really nice. (0:11:04) Kelly: Like, oh, there’s still always the time, you know, crunch or whatever. (0:11:06) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:11:07) Kelly: But like, oh, I don’t have to eat 10,000 apples just because I (0:11:11) Kelly: want to hit a few more rocks. (0:11:13) Al: This is the thing that’s always annoyed me about farming games is you’ve got two (0:11:17) Al: limitations, you’ve got the time and the energy and removing one or the other of (0:11:24) Al: them, because Ever After Falls, which is what I’m playing and Sunhaven, (0:11:29) Al: which is what you’re playing, both remove the stamina. (0:11:32) Al: but Sugaju Valley, which we’ll talk about in the news section, (0:11:36) Al: it removed the time aspect where it’s essentially turn based. (0:11:41) Al: So you do your stuff and then you there’s two phases to the day. (0:11:45) Al: There’s the day phase and the night phase. (0:11:48) Al: And the night phase is when you open the shop. (0:11:51) Al: So it’s like you do whatever you want to do and then you go and open the shop. (0:11:54) Al: And then when you close the shop, it’s bedtime. (0:11:58) Kelly: that’s sick yeah yeah yeah sometimes bad games yeah it’s um which I think you (0:11:59) Al: So I like the… (0:12:01) Al: I mean, it’s not a good game, it’s a bad game. (0:12:03) Al: But it was interest that was that was an interest. (0:12:06) Al: Interesting thing and I like the games are now trying to play around with these things a little bit more. (0:12:13) Kelly: know that’s one of the things that we benefit from at like at the time point (0:12:17) Kelly: we’re in post stardew is like obviously that a lot of copies came out but I (0:12:24) Kelly: I think we’re really starting to see people like try to change (0:12:28) Al: Mm hmm. Yeah. So we’ll see. We’ll see how those things go. But OK, so you’re enjoying Sun Haven. (0:12:36) Kelly: Yes, I have put over 100 hours into it so far. (0:12:39) Al: Let me schedule that episode then. Sun Haven. Kelly. We’ll see when we do that. (0:12:48) Kelly: You know, you’re the reason I actually picked it up, I think, is because we were talking (0:12:50) Al: I’ve been meaning to play it for so long. Maybe I can event. Maybe I can finally play it if I’ve got (0:12:55) Al: a date to record on it. Aha! (0:12:58) Al: Right, OK. Was it in the news then? (0:12:59) Kelly: about it during the grimoire podcast. (0:13:06) Kelly: Probably I don’t know. (0:13:07) Kelly: I know it got mentioned. (0:13:08) Kelly: It was probably like a brief mentioning, but I think it was the news. (0:13:10) Al: many things, come on. Well I have obviously been playing Ratopia, I’ve only been playing the demo, (0:13:13) Kelly: So you influenced me, congrats. (0:13:22) Al: we’ll get to that later, but yeah I’ve been playing the demo of Ratopia. I’ve also been (0:13:29) Al: playing Ever After Falls and I have put in about 60 hours in that game so far, so it hooked me. (0:13:34) Kelly: What, what’s, what’s that one? (0:13:37) Al: So that’s just another stardew clone, but it um (0:13:40) Al: Obviously, as I said, it doesn’t have the stamina aspect, but it’s, let’s see, how would I describe, so it’s premise is slightly different, where you die at the beginning of the game, and then wake up and turns out that your real life was a simulation, and now you’re in another world with a farm. (0:14:06) Kelly: Oh, interesting. So really planning on people’s simpsychosis fears. (0:14:11) Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And it’s very solid, I would say, probably much like what you’re talking about with Sunhaven. It’s like a solid farming game, and it has definitely caught that bug that I have for I must do this thing, and I’m building up this farm, and that is what I’m doing. (0:14:37) Al: And I’ve been enjoying that. (0:14:40) Al: And I have some things to talk about it that I’m going to talk about in a future (0:14:43) Al: episode that I found interesting, but I think if you’d like Stardew and you’ve (0:14:49) Al: been like, I must have another one and I’m done with Stardew, (0:14:52) Al: I want a different list. (0:14:54) Al: It’s a pretty solid one. (0:14:55) Kelly: The graphics look really cute. (0:14:57) Al: Yeah, that’s what initially grabbed me in. (0:14:59) Al: And the animation of it is fun as well, like your character’s arms are not (0:15:03) Al: attached to the body and they can swing really funny as you walk around. (0:15:08) Al: And there’s a few other things like you’ve (0:15:10) Al: seen these that you can catch and put them on things and you’ll get like wood or (0:15:14) Al: or without actually cutting the thing down. (0:15:17) Al: And that’s kind of like around it’s trying to encourage sustainability. (0:15:18) Kelly: Oh, that’s cool. (0:15:21) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:15:22) Al: So, yeah, there’s a few bits and pieces. (0:15:22) Kelly: Yeah, but it’s that solid game. (0:15:27) Kelly: Sometimes you don’t need anything innovative or crazy (0:15:29) Al: Yeah. Yeah. (0:15:30) Kelly: different. (0:15:30) Kelly: It’s just a nice, comforting game. (0:15:34) Al: So that’s what I’ve mostly been playing. (0:15:37) Al: I have also, so two picks earlier came out and I had backed that game. (0:15:42) Al: So this is like a life sim in a kind of stardew style, (0:15:48) Al: but it’s much more, it’s almost, I guess, GTA-esque. (0:15:54) Kelly: I was gonna say it looks like kind of reminds me of like I don’t want to say sim city but like (0:16:00) Al: I guess it would be some city if you were actually controlling an individual. (0:16:00) Kelly: something like that (0:16:04) Kelly: yeah that’s that’s which I guess is kind of like the ratopia of also (0:16:10) Al: Yeah, I think it’s different from that in so much as like you don’t have any control (0:16:15) Al: over anyone else. You’re just living your own life, but you can you can do crime and (0:16:16) Kelly: Mmm. (0:16:20) Al: stuff like that. What I will say is I’ve not properly played it because it doesn’t have (0:16:21) Kelly: Okay, that’s cool. That’s fun. (0:16:27) Al: controller support. So later, I play on my Steam Deck. (0:16:30) Kelly: Oh, you don’t do mouse and keyboard. (0:16:35) Kelly: Ah, that’s crazy. (0:16:36) Kelly: I didn’t consider that, that… (0:16:38) Kelly: Why would they put anything on the Steam Deck (0:16:40) Kelly: that doesn’t have… (0:16:40) Al: Well, anything on Steam goes on the Steam Deck by default, and most games coming out (0:16:43) Kelly: Yeah, no, I understand that, but like… (0:16:47) Al: now will have controller support. It’s a good question as to why it doesn’t have controller (0:16:52) Al: support yet, and I do not know the answer. They have said that they’re adding controller (0:16:56) Al: support soon, but yeah, I’m just like, why, why, why? (0:16:57) Kelly: okay hopefully like I get what you’re saying like obviously they push everything from steam to it (0:17:03) Kelly: but like you would think that there would be like some kind of filter like (0:17:08) Al: They have a compatibility thing and it’s and it currently has an unknown compatibility (0:17:12) Al: for Steam Deck. (0:17:13) Kelly: okay (0:17:14) Al: So. (0:17:15) Al: But whatever. (0:17:16) Al: Yeah. (0:17:17) Al: I opened it up. (0:17:18) Al: Went. (0:17:19) Kelly: yeah that’s that’s fair that’s very fair (0:17:19) Al: Yeah. (0:17:20) Al: Nope. (0:17:21) Al: We closed it. (0:17:24) Al: I’ll try again once you’ve added controller support, please and thank you. (0:17:28) Al: So, yeah, that’s. (0:17:30) Kelly: Interesting concept though. (0:17:31) Al: Yeah. (0:17:32) Al: Yeah. (0:17:33) Al: Well, I want to try it. (0:17:34) Al: That’s the thing. (0:17:35) Al: Like what it is saying it’s doing (0:17:38) Al: It has mixed reviews on Steam just now. (0:17:40) Al: So who knows how that will go, but (0:17:42) Kelly: Well, you know. You gotta try stuff. (0:17:43) Al: we’ll see. (0:17:46) Al: All right, let’s talk about some news. (0:17:48) Kelly: Yay! News! (0:17:50) Al: Tales, Tales of Saikyu. (0:17:56) Kelly: I think sake you, but like, also, I’m not a- (0:18:00) Al: This is the game where you turn into Yoko, Yoko, Yoko. (0:18:06) Kelly: Yokai? (0:18:08) Al: This game is where you turn into Yoko for getting around and dealing with your crops and stuff like that. (0:18:09) Kelly: Taseku, mess you up. (0:18:21) Al: You have a whole bunch of different abilities for turning into different Yokai that have different abilities to do these things. (0:18:30) Al: Yeah, yeah, I haven’t decided whether I want to play this or not, but it is a thing. (0:18:36) Al: and they’ve announced that their early access is coming. (0:18:38) Al: I don’t think this was a Kickstarter, so I won’t have backed it, so don’t buy it. (0:18:40) Kelly: Oh, very soon. (0:18:53) Al: I’m telling myself that, not other people. (0:18:56) Al: I can’t be trusted. (0:18:57) Al: Yeah, not much else to say about that, they’ve just announced their early access is coming. (0:19:03) Al: One thing I didn’t check is what they’re expecting in terms of how long. (0:19:08) Al: Because that’s always an interesting thing is how long they say they’re going to be in (0:19:11) Al: early access for. (0:19:13) Al: They’re expecting it to be about a year, so I suspect two and a half years. (0:19:18) Kelly: That sounds like good math. (0:19:24) Al: Next we have another update for Sugaju Island. (0:19:27) Al: So this game is bad game, don’t buy this game, don’t play this game, but they are making (0:19:32) Al: it less bad. (0:19:34) Al: Maybe someday it will be less bad enough that it will be worth buying, it probably won’t (0:19:38) Al: be. (0:19:39) Al: So in this update they’ve added sprinklers, so you can have sprinklers on the farm. (0:19:45) Al: Yay. (0:19:46) Kelly: And you can discover seashells. (0:19:46) Al: It’s such a, yeah, wow, I just, what, well, lackluster updates for lackluster game, that’s (0:19:47) Kelly: How exciting. (0:19:53) Kelly: This is like really lackluster updates. (0:19:55) Kelly: I’m sorry. (0:19:59) Al: what I would say. (0:20:02) Al: I don’t, they’ve also added key bindings support, so you can change your key bindings, which (0:20:06) Al: Good, I’m glad. (0:20:08) Al: You should have had that at lunch. I find this game so fascinating, (0:20:14) Al: because it feels so much like we need to do a farming game, so let’s do a farming game. (0:20:21) Al: And the only interesting thing about it was the turn-based time in the day. It is, (0:20:28) Kelly: Which is like a really cool concept, which is that sounds so interesting. (0:20:32) Al: but… but he’s just not good. (0:20:34) Kelly: They put all their effort into that one concept and nothing else. (0:20:38) Al: They’ve marked this as a major update on Steam. That is something. Uh, yeah. (0:20:46) Kelly: I mean, I’m going to just say this like then I think the name alone implies to me that there’s not a lot of effort going on here. (0:20:54) Al: Oh Kelly, you probably haven’t listened to last week’s episode have you? (0:20:57) Al: There were two new games in last week’s episode that were called Sunseed Island and Starsand Island. (0:21:08) Kelly: We got to start like putting a ban on certain words for farm game (0:21:14) Al: Known, known, island or valley. Yeah, this is… (0:21:18) Kelly: If you have “do” in your name. (0:21:24) Al: Good changes to the game, but that does not make a good game. (0:21:31) Al: I cannot see how either of these three tiny things in this major update would (0:21:39) Al: change this game from being bad to being good. I have no interest in opening that game again. (0:21:48) Kelly: Definitely good to know. I was very intrigued when you mentioned the turn-based, and very (0:21:52) Kelly: disappointed when you immediately followed up with that it’s a bad game. (0:21:54) Al: here lies the problem. They do have a demo. Feel free to try the demo. I mean, some people (0:22:01) Al: like it, apparently, there are some positive reviews. Apparently, it’s mostly positive. (0:22:07) Al: I don’t know how. I really don’t know. So, like, every recommended person is like, oh, (0:22:08) Kelly: Are they paying these people? (0:22:17) Al: it’s so nice. And they’re like, but it’s not. And all the not recommended is like, it is (0:22:23) Al: the most boring farming game. (0:22:24) Al: With so few features, it feels like a proof of concept and then they didn’t add the rest of the game. (0:22:36) Kelly: I don’t know how Steam reviews work. (0:22:38) Al: You just have to own it, I think. (0:22:42) Kelly: Yeah, but like, I think it tells you, right, if like, they got it for free. (0:22:44) Al: Oh, good question. Purchase type. Steam purchases and other. So other would be free ones. (0:22:53) Kelly: That’s what I would think, but like I meant more so too on like the, oh, no, nevermind. (0:22:58) Kelly: 230 people found this review helpful. (0:23:02) Al: Oh, is that the not recommended one at the top? (0:23:04) Kelly: Yeah. (0:23:06) Al: I can’t believe I put 12 hours into this game, absolutely mad. (0:23:09) Kelly: That’s a lot of hours. (0:23:10) Al: It’s a lot of hours for a bad game. (0:23:13) Al: All right, yeah, I’m going to start bashing this game. (0:23:14) Kelly: Next. (0:23:16) Al: Moving on, Outlanders have announced a new DLC, The Culinary Diaries. (0:23:23) Al: It looks like it’s a food based story addition to the game. (0:23:29) Al: This is a town building strategy game. (0:23:31) Kelly: OK, it looks like a short hike or the goose game. (0:23:36) Al: Yeah, I mean, graphics wise, yeah, it’s very much management style game, though, rather (0:23:38) Kelly: Yes, yeah, that’s what I’m basing that off of entirely. (0:23:44) Kelly: OK. (0:23:45) Al: than I have not. There’s too many games to play them all. But yeah, it looks like it’s (0:23:47) Kelly: Have you played this one? (0:23:55) Al: added a whole bunch of cooking stuff. So if you enjoy this game, there you go. You got (0:24:01) Al: a new update? A new DLC? Or is it paid? That’s a good question, I should check that. (0:24:06) Al: It is… No, it’s not free. It is $5. It is not bad. They’ve got quite a few DLCs, (0:24:06) Kelly: It’s free, maybe. (0:24:13) Kelly: Oh, that’s not bad. (0:24:17) Al: which is interesting. They’re all $5. Yeah, they also have very positive rating on Steam. (0:24:18) Kelly: I noticed that it seems like they’re, they have quite the DLC (0:24:29) Al: None of that tells as much, because it’s Sugaju Island, Suga Valley, whatever, I don’t care. (0:24:30) Kelly: - I think no. (0:24:37) Al: Had a positive, quite positive, was it? Or something like that? I don’t know. It was positive for some reason. (0:24:46) Kelly: But I mean, like, I feel like generally, obviously, (0:24:49) Kelly: that’s not true for everything. (0:24:51) Kelly: Games that tend to put out consistent DLC content, (0:24:55) Kelly: like, there’s something good going on. (0:24:57) Al: Yeah, it has twenty nine thumbs up on the Steam post and zero comments. (0:25:03) Al: So you’ve not got a whole bunch of people (0:25:05) Al: complaining about it being paid, which implies to me that some people are (0:25:10) Al: excited to buy it. (0:25:10) Kelly: Yeah. And again, for $5, it’s not a bad addition. (0:25:14) Al: Five dollars. (0:25:17) Al: All right, next, we have some new games to talk about. (0:25:21) Al: First up, we have turnip bill. (0:25:25) Al: Words, words. (0:25:25) Kelly: You’re not having a good day with the, I’m immediately adding this one to my wish list (0:25:27) Al: Fail me, Callie. (0:25:33) Al: Turnip Boy steals them all. (0:25:36) Al: Uh, have you played any Turnip Boy game? (0:25:39) Kelly: I have not, um, not out of like not wanting to, but like just life. (0:25:45) Al: So turn it by commits tax evasion is great fun. It’s it’s a really good (0:25:51) Al: small (0:25:53) Al: RPG and I really liked that game turn it by Rob’s a bank is (0:26:00) Al: similar in terms of its action (0:26:02) Al: But it is a roguelite (0:26:06) Kelly: Oh, interesting. So not for Al. (0:26:08) Al: I (0:26:09) Al: Mean I I played it. I want to see how many hours I put into it. I put in (0:26:11) Kelly: Yeah. (0:26:15) Al: I played it on the switch not steam apparently (0:26:18) Al: So I would need to I would need to look on my switch, which I’m not doing right now (0:26:23) Al: I (0:26:26) Al: Finished the game. I completed it which I haven’t done for many many roguelites (0:26:35) Kelly: says a lot. I didn’t realize how new these games were though. That’s crazy that they’ve put out (0:26:40) Kelly: three games in like four years. (0:26:43) Al: Yeah, 10 hours is apparently what I put into it to complete the game. (0:26:48) Kelly: Oh, that’s, that’s a, that’s like a solid cute little short game. (0:26:52) Al: Yeah, well, that’s the thing about them. They’re not super long, (0:26:55) Al: you know, you’re not looking at 50 hours, you’re looking at up to 10. (0:27:00) Al: With Turnip Boy commits to excavation, I 100% did it. I didn’t 100% (0:27:05) Al: rob the bank, but I did complete the story. I completed that run, completed that run. (0:27:12) Al: Which is enough. (0:27:13) Al: For a roguelite, for me, considering I only got a third of the way through a run in Hades. (0:27:27) Al: Defeated the first boss, then died in the next level and went “I’m not playing that boss again”. (0:27:36) Kelly: Where’s your dedication to pain? (0:27:40) Al: Nowhere. So yes, right. Okay, so this is a new Turnip Boy game. Don’t get excited. It is not an (0:27:46) Al: RPG. It is not like the previous Turnip Boy games. It is an endless runner for some reason. (0:27:55) Kelly: Very, you know, they found like their niche little like theme with the turnip boy, but like it’s very interesting that each game is different. (0:28:04) Al: Yeah, so what I’ve said in my notes here is, I’ll buy and play a new Turn It By game, right? (0:28:13) Al: Because I like Turn It By, but I’m a little bit disappointed that it’s a third game and (0:28:19) Al: it’s not like the first, because yeah, the second one was different, but it was the same (0:28:24) Al: as well. (0:28:25) Al: Like it was a roguelite, but it was still like a combat game in the same way that the (0:28:31) Al: other one was, right? (0:28:32) Al: The controls were the same, you controlled the player. (0:28:34) Al: The same, you still had a weapon in the same way, and there weren’t as many puzzles, right? (0:28:40) Al: The first one had more puzzles, but it was still there was the same combat and stuff like that. (0:28:46) Al: And this is very much not that. So I’m a little bit sad about that. (0:28:53) Al: I guess that’s fine, you know, they can do what they want. But yeah, I’m gonna buy it, I’m gonna (0:29:00) Al: to play it and I’m sure I’ll enjoy it but I want another turnip by turnip (0:29:04) Al: I was so good, it was funny (0:29:06) Kelly: I’ve literally only heard good things about it. Like, you know, it’s I feel like they (0:29:11) Kelly: really like turn a boy made himself into a thing. (0:29:14) Al: Turnaby commits tax evasion was a lovely RPG that you could 100% in 10 hours, and it was funny. (0:29:20) Al: It had a fun little story. It had some good combat that was actually challenging, (0:29:24) Al: especially near the end. And it was good fun. Turnaby robs a bank, had the challenging combat, (0:29:30) Al: and it had some of the funny story. And other than that, it missed the rest of it. (0:29:34) Al: And this presumably will have the same humor. But that’s it. And (0:29:38) Kelly: But that’s it. (0:29:39) Kelly: So they’re just slowly degrading. (0:29:44) Al: I feel bad saying that, because I suspect it’s not like they’re making this instead of another (0:29:50) Al: RPG, right? Like, I think they had a good idea for doing this. And they’ve done it as Turnaby. (0:29:57) Al: I’m just like, when I saw there’s a new Turnaby game, I went, “Oh, yes, great!” (0:30:01) Al: And I looked at it and went, “This is nothing like them at all.” (0:30:04) Kelly: Yeah. No, I was just being a little cynical, but I agree. (0:30:09) Kelly: I think that’s they’re just trying different avenues. (0:30:14) Kelly: It’s not like, oh, this is like a quick grab or something. (0:30:16) Al: Yeah, yeah, no, I get that. But yeah, I’m not saying it’s going to be a bad game. It’s (0:30:20) Al: just one of these things where it’s like, if you would hear, oh, you know, say you didn’t (0:30:25) Al: know about Silksong, right? And you heard Silksong’s coming out. It’s a new, a new Hollow Knight (0:30:33) Al: game. You’re like, oh, fantastic, exciting. And then it turns out it’s Solitaire. Right? (0:30:40) Kelly: Yeah, that would Yeah, yeah, that’s very true (0:30:41) Al: That’s essentially what we’ve had here. (0:30:44) Al: OK. (0:30:46) Al: Like I’m not saying it’s a bad game, I just saw new turnip game, excited. (0:30:50) Kelly: You want her to play, yeah (0:30:51) Al: It’s not that, that’s the problem. (0:30:54) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, no, that’s that’s the hard part (0:30:55) Al: And I guess this is the problem with spin-offs and stuff like that, right? (0:30:59) Al: Because this is what this is, it’s a spin-off, it’s not a sequel, it’s a spin-off. (0:31:02) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:31:03) Al: And I’m not saying they can’t do that, I’m just like, my expectations going in was different (0:31:09) Al: and I don’t know how they solve that problem, but that’s where we are. (0:31:14) Kelly: Well, maybe they’re working on that perfect Turnip Boy sequel in the back end. (0:31:20) Al: Well, they’re working on a different game just now as well, Hobknobbers, (0:31:26) Al: which I don’t think is out yet. (0:31:27) Al: Let me check. (0:31:27) Al: Yeah, it’s not. (0:31:28) Al: It’s still coming soon. (0:31:29) Al: So I suspect that the Hobknobbers is their upcoming big game and (0:31:37) Al: Turnip Boy steals them all as a let’s do a quick and easy, fun, endless (0:31:37) Kelly: - This is the, mm-hmm. (0:31:42) Al: runner that some people can buy and it will help our cash reserves. (0:31:49) Al: Well, speaking of their cash. (0:31:50) Al: It deserves, they’re also releasing a cubified turnip boy plushie. (0:31:53) Kelly: It’s so cute though and they have to reach their funded goal. (0:31:56) Al: I don’t need it. (0:32:00) Al: It’s $40! (0:32:01) Al: Oh my word, $40? (0:32:05) Al: This thing better be huge, how big is this? (0:32:07) Al: It’s 35 centimetres tall, so it is reasonably big, but that’s a lot of money. (0:32:14) Kelly: But it looks so soft. (0:32:16) Al: What is the shipping going to be to me? (0:32:20) Al: Probably too much. (0:32:20) Kelly: I don’t need this. What is the shipping? (0:32:26) Kelly: How much tariff would I have to pay to receive this? (0:32:30) Al: Oh 15 dollars shipping to me! (0:32:33) Kelly: Ugh. (0:32:34) Al: 55 dollars. (0:32:36) Kelly: Okay, that’s… that’s… (0:32:36) Al: And it is only 40 pounds, but I’m enjoying the dollar has sunk. (0:32:38) Kelly: But he’s so cute. (0:32:50) Kelly: Well, I’m so glad that someone’s benefited. (0:32:58) Kelly: Oh, I see, there is a tariff statement at the top. (0:33:06) Al: I don’t need it anyway so cube turnip cube or cube boy whatever you’d like to call him he exists (0:33:14) Kelly: He’s very cute. (0:33:15) Al: yeah uh (0:33:16) Kelly: He looks like he’s like that good soft material, too. (0:33:18) Al: yeah yeah (0:33:20) Kelly: Like squishmallows. (0:33:22) Al: but not (0:33:22) Kelly: I’m just going to keep talking until you feel bad, (0:33:24) Kelly: and then you add yourself to life. (0:33:29) Al: everdream valley have announced and released I think I think this is out now (0:33:34) Al: Ever Dream Valley. (0:33:36) Al: VR. A virtual reality version of Ever Dream Valley. (0:33:38) Kelly: Oh, oh, I don’t like that at all. I can’t look at that. (0:33:42) Kelly: I think I would puke if I ever did VR. (0:33:46) Al: I played, there was a game that I played which was like in VR, but you, but it was (0:33:54) Al: augmented reality rather than virtual reality. So you’re seeing the world around you as well (0:33:58) Al: and you like create these little islands where you put animals on them. I love that game. It’s such a (0:33:59) Kelly: OK. (0:34:05) Kelly: That seems cuter, and probably wouldn’t (0:34:07) Kelly: give me motion sickness, maybe. (0:34:10) Al: it was yeah it was a it definitely is much better um this I oh (0:34:16) Kelly: I literally can’t look at that cow clip. (0:34:18) Al: yeah I don’t I don’t know what to say about this game uh (0:34:25) Al: this kind of looks like a proof of concept this looks thrown together um (0:34:30) Kelly: It doesn’t look good. (0:34:32) Al: oh it’s not out yet it’s coming soon but you can pre-order it (0:34:34) Kelly: No yeah yeah but like that cow clip does not look good. (0:34:38) Al: No, no. (0:34:40) Al: No. (0:34:42) Kelly: Feels like I don’t, maybe I’m biased because I don’t like VR but like (0:34:47) Kelly: I thought we were kind of coming down from like the VR (0:34:51) Kelly: um spike I guess. (0:34:54) Al: do it. Yeah, I don’t know why they’ve done this. Like I have a VR headset and I love (0:34:59) Al: it for some things. I love Beat Saber. I love whatever the name of the game is. I kind (0:35:01) Kelly: Mm-hmm (0:35:07) Kelly: Beat Saber looks so sick. I think that would that’s like the the soul game that would sell me a (0:35:12) Al: It is the single thing that convinces anybody to buy VR. (0:35:17) Al: It is so good, I love it so much. (0:35:21) Al: But that, watching films in IMAX and whatever the name of the other game I play, the one (0:35:29) Al: with the Islands of Animals, those are the three things I’ve done more than once on my (0:35:33) Kelly: okay yeah no and it’s a separate game right like yeah you have to pay (0:35:35) Al: VR headset, right? (0:35:36) Al: Like there’s other things that you’ve tried once or whatever and gone “not for me”. (0:35:42) Al: It’s game, but the content. (0:35:47) Al: Yeah. (0:35:48) Al: It’s twenty dollars I think? (0:35:50) Kelly: you could pre-order it for 15 (0:35:58) Kelly: Yeah, no, I feel like a lot of the VR game just feel like novelty. (0:36:02) Al: Tune in next time to see if I’ve bought this game or not. (0:36:07) Al: All right. (0:36:08) Al: That’s the news. (0:36:09) Al: Let’s talk about Ratopia. (0:36:11) Kelly: Yay, I’m just so glad it came out. (0:36:12) Al: All right, I’m going to. (0:36:15) Kelly: Can I say that as someone who is waiting on so many different stupid games? (0:36:16) Al: Yeah. (0:36:20) Kelly: It is so nice to get a full release. (0:36:25) Al: OK, I want to try and describe this game and you can tell me what you think (0:36:30) Kelly: Okay. (0:36:30) Al: about my description. (0:36:32) Al: You are the the queen of a new rat city (0:36:39) Al: and you are building your city out. (0:36:43) Al: You it’s it’s almost it almost is like a it is a city builder, (0:36:49) Al: but it is a an RPG city builder. (0:36:52) Al: So you’re controlling a character. (0:36:55) Al: And you are building up the city. (0:36:58) Al: You’re you know, you’re saying this is where buildings go and you’re saying this (0:37:02) Al: different things go and this is these are the laws of the city and stuff like that. (0:37:08) Al: And you also accept in new members or new citizens. (0:37:14) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:37:15) Al: They are. They call them (0:37:18) Al: they call them migrants or refugees. (0:37:19) Kelly: I think it’s migrants. (0:37:19) Al: I can’t remember. It’s one of the two. (0:37:21) Kelly: It’s something with an M. I know that. (0:37:22) Al: I think it’s my yeah, it’ll be migrants then. (0:37:25) Al: And when you accept migrants in, you can then put them to work. (0:37:29) Al: Or you, so I guess the two, two. (0:37:32) Al: Your main ways of playing the game are you are controlling your individual character who goes around and can do things, and then you’re also directing your citizens to do things as well, so you don’t have to do them instead. (0:37:47) Al: And that can be basically anything, right? You can get them to man a specific building, to like lumber, or you can get them to dig. (0:37:55) Al: I think automatically they will like gather up everything that’s on the ground and put it in the chest. (0:38:02) Al: That’s it. It’s a city builder, but you are controlling an individual character as well as telling other characters what to do. (0:38:10) Al: Is that a fair description of the game? (0:38:12) Kelly: I think it is also it’s vertical builder uh like yeah yeah yeah (0:38:14) Al: What does that mean? What do you mean? Oh, like a 2D, yeah, okay, I see what you mean. It’s side scrolling up and downy. (0:38:22) Kelly: yes but like you’re building vertically which I think is like more terraria than like other (0:38:25) Al: Yes. I was going to, I was just going to say that Terraria is the, is the. (0:38:32) Al: Would be the example. (0:38:34) Kelly: I would say this is like a micromanagers final boss game (0:38:38) Al: Oh, my word, so micromanaging. (0:38:40) Kelly: It’s, it makes. (0:38:42) Kelly: It makes my heart sing. It’s incredible and so stressful. (0:38:45) Al: So let me tell you how I, let me tell you my thought process when starting this game. I’ve not put in, like, I’ve maybe put in less than an hour into this game, but the demo is really good at showing you the core concept of the game really quickly, and I don’t know if the main game does it in the same way, but. (0:39:02) Al: And you’re like, oh, you’re great. That’s fine. I’m going to go do some digging and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Oh, man, I can only carry three things at once and there’s only three of the same thing. (0:39:10) Al: Oh, that’s really frustrating. Oh, goodness. Right. This is going to take forever to do anything. It’s like you dig, dig, dig, and then you throw in the chest and then you dig, dig, dig, and you throw in the chest. Right. Fine. Whatever. This is really annoying. (0:39:22) Al: Oh, OK. Right. I’m adding in new people to my city. OK, fine. Oh, they’re all picking up the things I can do so I can just go now and dig and dig and dig and dig and they will take the thing. Great. That’s a much improvement. (0:39:32) Al: And then it’s like, oh, and then it goes, oh, you need to build this thing. And you’re like, how do I do this? And it’s like you go into this menu and this menu then expands and expands and expands. (0:39:43) Al: And it’s like this web, absolute mass, massive web of different parts of different menus. And you’re just like, I have no idea what’s happening here. (0:39:54) Al: And it’s just it is, if you enjoy not creating spreadsheets, but if you enjoy looking at. (0:40:02) Al: Somebody else’s spreadsheets and figuring out what they do, you will like this game. (0:40:08) Kelly: I think that is a fair– (0:40:12) Kelly: not metaphor, what is the word I’m looking for– (0:40:15) Kelly: summation of essentially all of the aspects of this game. (0:40:18) Al: Where I enjoy making spreadsheets, I do not enjoy figuring out what other people have done, and that’s what the menu felt like. I’m like, I want this thing, but I need to figure out what category they put it in, what category of what category, and what menu of what setting, and then where in this category is it, because it’s just like this mess of things. (0:40:42) Al: And I don’t like figuring out what people think in the best of times. (0:40:48) Al: And it just feels like somebody made this game, and this is how they decided was the most logical thing for their brain, and I cannot be bothered spending my time figuring out why they decided. (0:41:02) Kelly: I think that is a very fair way to see it because I think that’s exactly how it is. (0:41:10) Kelly: But also, I feel like once it starts clicking, it starts making more sense because for me, (0:41:16) Kelly: I really enjoy trying to figure out how people are thinking because I think that’s the only (0:41:20) Kelly: way I can understand vaguely people. (0:41:26) Kelly: So it’s like a puzzle. (0:41:27) Kelly: So I think the puzzle of trying to understand the thought process is kind of fun. (0:41:32) Kelly: Also frustrating, though. (0:41:35) Kelly: Like, there’s definitely been moments where I’m like, (0:41:38) Kelly: “This stupid rat has to pee! How do I fix this?” (0:41:42) Al: Yes, I (0:41:42) Kelly: You know, like, “What do you mean they can’t do this task?” (0:41:46) Al: Think that part of it is is is I I didn’t hate right because it’s like you’re just your standard city builder thing (0:41:50) Kelly: No, no, it’s not bad (0:41:52) Al: It’s like you need to balance you need to balance all these things and you need to figure out how they balance fine (0:41:57) Al: Sure, whatever my problem. I just felt like I was navigating menus for 90% of the time (0:41:57) Kelly: Yes, it’s just I think (0:42:03) Kelly: It’s a lot of menus (0:42:04) Kelly: I did see someone say that they didn’t like that the game paused when you opened the menu to like build something and in (0:42:11) Kelly: My head I was like, what the hell are you talking about? (0:42:13) Al: All right souls player, goodness me, just masochistic person. (0:42:15) Kelly: Yeah, I was like what kind of game do you think this is that’s crazy (0:42:21) Kelly: Then like I literally I watched that and I was like what the hell kind of person (0:42:27) Al: Oh, my word. Horrifying. (0:42:28) Kelly: That’s sick that’s sicko behavior (0:42:32) Kelly: It’s like please keep those thoughts to yourself and I think better never implement that in this game (0:42:38) Al: Yeah, that that that how to make this game more stressful. (0:42:42) Kelly: Yeah, literally, like you said, the souls-like version. (0:42:47) Kelly: That’s disgusting. (0:42:48) Kelly: Don’t ever tell people that. (0:42:50) Al: It was like the kid just said, “Is it time for a test in school?” (0:42:51) Kelly: Like, I need those, I need that pause (0:42:54) Kelly: to figure out what I’m doing. (0:42:58) Al: And you’re like, “No! (0:42:59) Al: What are you doing? (0:43:00) Al: What?” (0:43:00) Kelly: You didn’t collect our homework. (0:43:01) Al: Yeah. (0:43:02) Al: Oh. (0:43:06) Kelly: But yeah, no, that blew my mind. (0:43:07) Kelly: ‘Cause I was like, people think like this? (0:43:10) Kelly: Why would you want that? (0:43:12) Al: So yeah, I think I, I mean, we’re just, we’re apparently getting straight into (0:43:15) Al: my opinions, um, I, I can, I, this is not the game for me, but I 100% can see why (0:43:16) Kelly: I think that’s very fair, and I do overall, I think this game, there is so much going (0:43:21) Al: someone would like this 100%. (0:43:29) Kelly: on and like, I like Rimworld a lot, I don’t know half of the shit I’m supposed to be doing (0:43:36) Kelly: in Rimworld because there’s just so much in that game. (0:43:41) Kelly: I don’t even buy the DLCs for that game, I just like playing the game, I figure things (0:43:45) Kelly: Peace out as the game goes on. (0:43:46) Kelly: You know, I’ve been playing it for a few years, things will happen, bad things happen, sometimes you die. (0:43:48) Al: Yeah (0:43:51) Al: Do you know I think (0:43:53) Al: What I think interesting was I think that when I while I was playing this game (0:43:57) Al: I think I was thinking you know what I would have more fun doing probably what is terraria (0:44:03) Al: Right, like I feel like that’s what I’m looking for if I’m one if I would be wanting to play this game (0:44:08) Al: It’s it’s I I I want it simpler (0:44:13) Al: I’m not it’s not necessarily even the action adventure bit right like it’s it’s more I (0:44:14) Kelly: That’s, yeah. (0:44:18) Al: Was thinking like this but (0:44:22) Al: Minecraft and then I was like wait, but that’s terraria, right? (0:44:24) Kelly: Mmm (0:44:26) Kelly: That’s so funny because I’ve I’ve actually never played I missed the boat on Terraria (0:44:30) Kelly: And I’ve also never played Minecraft because I 100% missed the boat on that one. I feel like at a certain point (0:44:37) Kelly: Like I think I would still enjoy Minecraft, but at this point in my life. I’m just like I cannot pick up Minecraft (0:44:43) Al: That’s totally fair. Minecraft was my, like I got in literally the last day of alpha (0:44:50) Kelly: Oh, wow. (0:44:51) Al: in Minecraft. So that was back on in 2010, I want to say. And that was like, I was, (0:44:56) Kelly: Mm-hmm. And I know people are still playing it. I know, you know, it’s still a relevant game. (0:45:00) Al: oh yeah, yeah. Oh, absolutely. But I was like part of the way through uni at that point, (0:45:07) Al: university. So like I, I was very much in a world where I. (0:45:12) Al: Could sit up till three in the morning, obsessing over stuff. And I loved the building aspect of (0:45:18) Al: that. So I, I, if I, obviously I do not have any numbers for how much time I spent on Minecraft, (0:45:25) Al: because it wasn’t through Steam and nothing exists for that. But if I did have numbers, (0:45:30) Al: I would probably be incredibly scared to share that number with anyone, right? Like. (0:45:34) Kelly: That’s how I feel about my Sims numbers, you know? I’m so glad I don’t have those. (0:45:39) Al: Yeah. Yeah, same, same sort of thing. (0:45:42) Al: Absolutely. (0:45:45) Kelly: But no, I think what I like about this game is that there’s so much going on. Like in (0:45:50) Kelly: a sense it’s like, I enjoy bein

Al and Kelly talk about Grimoire Groves Disclosure: We received a free review code for Grimoire Groves. #gifted Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:02:23: What Have We Been Up To 00:12:16: Game News 00:36:28: New Games 00:39:42: Grimoire Groves 01:12:37: Outro Links Harvest Moon Pre-Orders Bugaboo Pocket Release Date Fields of Mistria 2nd Update Go-go Town “Spring Cleaning” Update Sun Haven “Festivals” 2.0 Update Autonomica (Farm Folks) Name Change Coral Island 2025 Roadmap Everdream Village Contact Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Al: Hello, farmers, and welcome to another episode of the Harvest Season. (0:00:34) Al: My name is Al, and we are here today to talk about cottagecore games. (0:00:36) Kelly: And my name is Kelly. (0:00:40) Kelly: Yay. (0:00:41) Al: Welcome back, Kelly. How are you doing? (0:00:44) Kelly: Good. (0:00:44) Kelly: It’s always nice to be back. (0:00:46) Kelly: It’s so funny, because all of my voice recordings are just– (0:00:46) Al: Always nice to have you. (0:00:52) Kelly: oh, it’s like memory lane looking at all the past podcasts. (0:00:56) Al: You were last on talking about fields of mystery, which we might have stuff to talk about with (0:01:00) Kelly: Yes, yes. (0:01:04) Kelly: Yeah, I saw there was a note, but I (0:01:06) Kelly: I haven’t checked it out since we last spoke. (0:01:10) Kelly: Yeah, how have you been? (0:01:10) Al: But yeah, your first one of the year you did three last year. (0:01:12) Kelly: Oh, yeah, 2025. (0:01:14) Al: Let’s see if we can get you above three this year. (0:01:19) Al: Cool. Well, I have Kelly on this episode because we are going to (0:01:23) Al: talk about grimoire groves, grimoire groves. (0:01:28) Kelly: Yes, it’s like a little tongue twister. (0:01:31) Al: Yes, grimoire groves. (0:01:34) Al: Got to say up front, obviously, we received a free review code (0:01:38) Al: for the game, which actually can. (0:01:40) Al: I don’t know. No, that was a joke. That was a joke. That was a joke. (0:02:00) Kelly: No, no, no, no, I would absolutely pay money for this game. (0:02:11) Al: Spoiler alert. Yeah, so we’re going to talk about that game later in the episode. Before (0:02:15) Kelly: And thank you, Al, for that. (0:02:22) Al: that, we’ve obviously got a bunch of news, but first of all, Kelly, what have you been (0:02:26) Kelly: I have been up to taking care of a stray cat and then just trying to start (0:02:33) Kelly: planning out stuff for the spring for the yard. (0:02:36) Al: Oh, yes. Is it garden talking time? What’s your plans for this year? (0:02:39) Kelly: Yeah, but also we’re trying to… I don’t know yet. I’m still waiting but I have to (0:02:47) Kelly: clean up the yard because I prioritized weeding other areas of the house last (0:02:51) Kelly: fall instead of the garden, so it’s still kind of overgrown. (0:02:56) Kelly: I’m trying to get dirt so I can level out the borders of the (0:02:59) Kelly: yard and then tarp them. So exciting. And besides that, I’ve (0:03:08) Kelly: been playing Infinity Nikki for three solid months. This broke (0:03:11) Kelly: my streak, actually. I still play the game every day, so it (0:03:12) Al: No, I haven’t played it (0:03:17) Kelly: didn’t actually break my streak. I just was the only game I was (0:03:19) Kelly: playing for three months. (0:03:22) Al: Fair enough. I haven’t played Infinity Nakey. I’m pretty sure that Dalin plays it as well. (0:03:29) Al: I think we’ve talked about it before, but if you’ve been playing it for three months (0:03:34) Al: straight, I guess you’ve been enjoying it then. (0:03:36) Kelly: - Yes, yes, I think there were definitely moments, (0:03:39) Al: This is the dress-up game, right? Yeah. (0:03:41) Kelly: yes, there were definitely moments where I was playing it (0:03:43) Kelly: ‘cause I just was like, I don’t really have anything else (0:03:45) Kelly: I’m trying to play at the moment, (0:03:48) Kelly: but there is a lot of content and it looks really nice (0:03:51) Kelly: and it’s just like fun to run around the open world (0:03:53) Kelly: and like collect your stuff. (0:03:55) Kelly: It’s just a collecting game. (0:03:56) Al: Yeah. Look, you’re talking to a Pokemon player, right? Like, I know what collecting is like, (0:04:01) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:04:03) Al: I know the feeling. I think it’s a unique part of it, is the fact that it’s a gacha (0:04:10) Al: collecting game, but with outfits, I think is fun. (0:04:12) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:04:14) Kelly: Yes. (0:04:15) Kelly: And unfortunately, there are some things (0:04:19) Kelly: that you cannot beat with essentially not doing the gotcha, (0:04:22) Kelly: but you don’t have to do everything. (0:04:24) Kelly: It’s not going to stop your story progression. (0:04:27) Kelly: You’re just not going to get bonuses. (0:04:30) Al: Right. They’ve got to have a reason for you to pay money, right? (0:04:30) Kelly: You’re just not going to get the coolest outfit. (0:04:33) Kelly: Did I– absolutely. (0:04:36) Kelly: And did I spend some money to get a frog outfit? (0:04:40) Kelly: Yes, but it was a surprise. (0:04:42) Kelly: There was a dog outfit and I needed it. (0:04:44) Kelly: But also like the game is free also, so. (0:04:47) Al: Yes. And, well, yes, exactly. Tell me that three years ago. The thing about these three games is, (0:04:48) Kelly: You just have to you have to restrain yourself. (0:04:57) Al: yeah, you’ve got to make sure that you’re not going over the top, but you’ve also got to think (0:05:00) Al: about how much time and fun you’ve gotten out of games. Like, you know, if I think about Pokemon Go, (0:05:04) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:05:07) Al: I have obviously, I’ve definitely put too much money into that. But also when I think about the (0:05:07) Kelly: Ah, yes. (0:05:11) Al: amount of time that I spend in that game. Like, I spend hours every single day. (0:05:16) Kelly: Oh, I was Pokemon go is probably my highest. Yeah (0:05:17) Al: For eight, for nine years now. (0:05:22) Kelly: Like I don’t and I I I go back and forth on playing it but that game has (0:05:27) Kelly: That’s my most played game because of that (0:05:28) Al: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, ever. Yeah, that don’t think is… (0:05:31) Kelly: Like it beat my Sims like legacy of like, you know playing that from like 10 years old or whatever (0:05:38) Al: I think the thing is that because it’s so accessible, but also because you’re playing (0:05:41) Kelly: It’s so accessible it’s in your hand (0:05:45) Al: it for so many years, even if you only played half an hour every day after 10 years, which (0:05:47) Kelly: Mm-hmm. Yes, exactly (0:05:54) Al: in a year and a bit, it’ll be 10 years since the game came out, if you’ve only played half (0:05:58) Kelly: That’s disgusting, don’t say that. (0:06:05) Al: an error, but you do it every single day for the for the for. (0:06:08) Al: 10 years, that is nearly 2000 hours. That’s the thing, the (0:06:12) Kelly: that’s insane but yeah no it’s it’s true yeah exactly but yeah it’s so it’s like (0:06:15) Al: numbers just add up so fast. And let me tell you, it’s way more (0:06:20) Al: than half an hour I’ve played every single day. (0:06:20) Kelly: okay yeah yeah and it’s like okay so like if I put some money in it every (0:06:26) Kelly: year like I’m getting so much out of it you know and I played love Nikki which (0:06:31) Kelly: is what is the phone game before like there’s been other phone games before (0:06:36) Kelly: this too but that was the one I got really into which is different like (0:06:40) Kelly: setup wise, but essentially it’s just an outfit game again. (0:06:42) Kelly: Gotcha outfit game and again, it’s like okay. I played that game for like four years. I put some money into it (0:06:49) Kelly: But I played it a lot like I spent so much time playing that game (0:06:52) Al: Yeah, as long as you can afford what you’re doing, that’s the important thing. (0:06:56) Kelly: Exactly, but yeah, what have you been up to? (0:07:00) Al: I have been procrastinating playing Grimoire Crows. (0:07:06) Al: Every so often, I end up in this situation where I’m like, this is a game that I need to play, (0:07:11) Al: and then I end up not playing it very much. And instead of procrastinating by playing other games, (0:07:17) Al: I procrastinate by doing other things instead. So I’ve not really done much this week at all. (0:07:20) Kelly: Yep. (0:07:23) Al: I have started a shiny hunt for Regigigas in Pokémon Sword. I’m at the point where I need to (0:07:38) Al: actually get through the rest of the legendaries. I don’t have a shiny if I want to finish my (0:07:43) Al: living decks, because I’m 110 left. And so I’m going to run out of non-legendaries very soon. (0:07:48) Kelly: Oh, my god. (0:07:52) Al: And so I thought, let’s start this one, because I can’t just… Yeah, exactly. (0:07:55) Kelly: Start breaking it up. (0:07:58) Kelly: Yeah, no, I understand that. (0:08:00) Kelly: I used to do that with Angry Birds. (0:08:04) Al: You’re going to have to explain that. (0:08:10) Kelly: Since Angry Birds came out, any phone that I get, (0:08:13) Kelly: I download Angry Birds and beat the whole game again. (0:08:15) Al: You replay it all again, oh my word! (0:08:16) Kelly: 3 stars? (0:08:18) Kelly: I’m less about it now, I just kinda go back to it when I’m bored. So like, you know, I have my phone for a while, eventually I get all the stars. But there’s certain levels that even after all these years of replaying it, they’re just difficult. And they piss me off. So I’ll break it down. (0:08:25) Al: look it’s fun it’s a fun game but I can’t say i’ve played it in the last 15 years (0:08:48) Kelly: I always break those up when I go back to get the 3 stars for them. So it’s the same thing where it’s like, I don’t want to do the really tough thing repeatedly and then just get frustrated at the game. Like it’s boring, you know? It gets boring. (0:08:56) Al: Fair enough. My 15 years might have been a bit of an exaggeration, however it is only (0:09:04) Al: 15 years since it’s 15 years since the first game came out. I can’t believe it’s been 15 years, (0:09:06) Kelly: Yes, yes, because I played it on the first iPhone I had, or an only iPhone. (0:09:09) Al: that’s wild. It was it was definitely it was one of the it was one of the early games that made you (0:09:20) Al: go ’this is why I want a touchscreen’ and it was that and (0:09:22) Kelly: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. (0:09:26) Al: Fruit Ninja and Digital Jump. Those were like the three that made me realize I get it, (0:09:27) Kelly: Yes, I never got into Fruit Ninja. (0:09:36) Al: I would like a touchscreen please. (0:09:38) Kelly: Yep. Well, that was the thrill of like, you know, with the iPhone too. It was like, oh, this is so sick. I can, I can play these fun games. I can do this for a peggle. (0:09:48) Kelly: I played peggle so much on that phone. It’s pinball. (0:09:52) Al: Okay, no, I didn’t. I didn’t play that one. I don’t think I need more games. (0:09:54) Kelly: Oh, you should look it up. I think you like peggle. (0:10:03) Al: Yeah, fun. All right. I think that’s all. Is that all I’ve got to talk about? I’m shiny (0:10:09) Al: hunting. I think so. I played… You were the one that you were you were spying me on steam. (0:10:16) Al: Was it like half an hour I played of Grimoire Groves or something? (0:10:16) Kelly: Oh, yeah, I was watching you all week because every time I’d sign on to the Steam, it’s (0:10:22) Kelly: like you’re the only person I know that has the game also. (0:10:22) Al: Oh, I’ve got an hour and 20 minutes apparently on steam there. Okay. That was yesterday. (0:10:26) Kelly: So for like the whole week, it was like 12 minutes playing. (0:10:30) Kelly: Yes, now, I see it now, but I was like watching it. (0:10:37) Kelly: I know because like two days ago, I was like, he’s still, he is cutting it close. (0:10:43) Al: Look, well, the problem was you messaged me and you said, “I’m loving this game. I’m (0:10:48) Al: played it so much.” And I’m like, “Okay, cool. I don’t need to then.” (0:10:52) Al: Yeah. No, I legitimately think that’s all I’ve (0:10:53) Kelly: Also, I’m the problem. (0:11:02) Al: done this week is like shiny hunting and Pokémon Go. (0:11:05) Kelly: sometimes it’s like you just get that mental block where you just can’t (0:11:08) Al: Yeah. Oh, I did do… I know. I did do the the Scarlet and Violet Quack Quack Quack Quaville (0:11:09) Kelly: even you’re just like oh I gotta I gotta do this but I can’t (0:11:20) Al: raids. I don’t think I’ve ever figured out how to say the name of that. (0:11:21) Kelly: What? What is that? I actually did not play Scarlet and Violet. (0:11:22) Al: Pokémon. Did you not? Um, it’s the, uh, it’s based on like carnival dancers. Uh, let me send you. (0:11:36) Kelly: Okay (0:11:38) Kelly: But like what is it you do the dancing like you (0:11:40) Al: It’s a Pokémon. Oh, no, no, just like a raid, like a normal Pokémon raid. (0:11:45) Kelly: Oh, but it’s like dressed up like a carnival dancer (0:11:49) Al: No, no, clearly you completely misunderstood this. This is just a Pokémon. (0:11:51) Kelly: Okay (0:11:52) Al: A Pokémon that is based on a carnival dancer. That’s the Pokémon, (0:11:57) Kelly: Oh, but that’s what you’re waiting for (0:11:57) Al: but they’ve done, there’s a raid to defeat it and capture it, yes. (0:12:01) Kelly: Okay, okay, I’m sorry. I thought this was like a costume Pokemon. You know what I mean? (0:12:05) Al: Oh, no, it’s not. They’ve not done that in the main games yet. Um, yeah, that’s it. (0:12:06) Kelly: Okay (0:12:12) Al: That’s the entirety of that. It was a raid. I did it. There we go. Done. Uh, (0:12:17) Al: should we talk about some news? Because the section is being a little bit of a disaster. (0:12:21) Al: Um… (0:12:23) Al: So, first up, the moment you’ve all been waiting for, we have some news on Harvest Moon, (0:12:30) Al: The Lost Valley, and Skytree Village, the ports or remasters, however they want to call them, (0:12:38) Al: for Switch, which for some reason they’ve decided to do, is up for pre-order now. (0:12:44) Al: It is $40 for the two of them, which still feels like too much, but (0:12:51) Al: I feel like it says a lot. (0:12:52) Al: When they’re selling two full games that they originally sold individually on separate consoles, (0:12:59) Al: and they’ve ported them both to the Switch, and they’re selling them both together for $40. (0:13:03) Al: That shows you how much people definitely want to buy these games. (0:13:07) Kelly: Yeah, cuz a lot of these remakes are like still a full 60 dollars alone. Yeah (0:13:11) Al: Exactly. The good ones are. (0:13:15) Al: So it’s coming out in June. Previously, we just knew it was coming out in the summer. (0:13:19) Al: We don’t have an exact date as far as I can see, just says June. (0:13:23) Al: And if you pre-order it now, you get a free acrylic standee (0:13:27) Al: with some of the worst art I’ve seen for a Harvestmen game ever. (0:13:31) Kelly: I can tell you really like this one. (0:13:33) Al: I haven’t even played these games, but I know for a fact they’re bad (0:13:36) Al: because I talked to Rachelle about them and they did not like them and yeah. (0:13:39) Kelly: I can never remember which ones are bad but the art for this one does not look good. (0:13:47) Al: These were I think the first two they did after the split between Harvestmen and (0:13:53) Al: so these were the first ones that weren’t by the original team. (0:13:56) Al: They were by Natsume and let’s just say they hadn’t made any games before and you can tell. (0:14:08) Al: I do, I will, I’m so strongly of the opinion that I think that people sometimes are judging (0:14:17) Al: Harvestmen too harshly purely because they’re angry that they kept the name and didn’t give (0:14:23) Al: back but that’s how these things work and I’m sorry you dislike that but I think if you actually (0:14:29) Al: played some of the newer games they’re not as bad as you think but these ones I’m pretty sure are. (0:14:37) Kelly: - Fair enough, I think that’s a fair point. (0:14:40) Al: The way I described it in the last episode I did with Micah is (0:14:43) Al: they are so close to having a good game. (0:14:47) Kelly: Oh, with the new ones. (0:14:48) Al: Yeah, they’re so close. So close. (0:14:51) Kelly: Maybe next– maybe next game, they’ll hit it. (0:14:52) Al: what we said for three games now. Each game they do is better than the last. Yes, but (0:15:00) Kelly: OK, so they’re growing slowly. (0:15:02) Al: they do still make some bizarre decisions in those games. They’ve also released a whole (0:15:07) Al: bunch of screenshots. And yeah, I mean, they basically look like the original games did, (0:15:13) Al: but with, I guess, more pixels, but not more pixels on the actual models, just more pixels. (0:15:20) Al: So it’s like– (0:15:20) Kelly: No, they look like knees, but like with a little bit better quality. (0:15:22) Al: Yeah, yeah, that’s exact. It looks better quality, but not in a good way. (0:15:30) Kelly: No. (0:15:31) Al: It looks like HD kind of, but it’s like you’ve got HD upscaled basically, right? (0:15:39) Al: Like you were recording on a really old camera and you’ve upscaled it to HD, (0:15:43) Al: so it’s like everything is shiny and lots of pixels, but it still doesn’t look good. (0:15:52) Kelly: - Yeah, no, it’s not right. (0:15:53) Al: These were a DS and a 3DS game, I think, originally, so they have had to merge the two screens. (0:16:02) Al: However, I think the bottom screen was mostly just like for the map, (0:16:06) Al: and so they now have a mini map on the screen, so… (0:16:09) Kelly: Okay, I feel like a lot of games like this have like the map or like controls or something at the bottom (0:16:14) Al: Yeah, yeah, so I guess we’ll see. (0:16:19) Al: I don’t, I’m gonna buy this. (0:16:22) Kelly: I like, did you notice that it’s so you said it’s releasing in June, but then at the top (0:16:23) Al: I’m gonna do my duty for the podcast, you’re welcome. (0:16:33) Kelly: it says ships in April to June. (0:16:36) Al: Yeah, if you scroll down to the product description, it says release date June 2025. (0:16:41) Kelly: interesting so this game is worth that $25 basically (0:16:43) Al: Apparently, the acrylic standee is worth $13. (0:16:48) Al: So yeah, well, I don’t know what to say. You probably shouldn’t buy this. (0:17:02) Al: But I will. Next, we have Bugaboo Pocket. (0:17:07) Al: Have announced that the release date is on the 2nd of April. I don’t know if you’ve (0:17:11) Al: seen this game, Kelly. It’s a bug game. It’s like a bug Pokémon, but like on… (0:17:12) Kelly: I have not. What is this? (0:17:20) Al: How do I describe this? It’s like virtual pets. So like Tamagotchis. (0:17:24) Kelly: Oh, okay, I see it now. Now I got the screen page, but it’s got like way more details. (0:17:30) Al: Yes, yeah, it’s very much like modernized in terms of how you would interact. (0:17:37) Al: Quality of graphics and is much more intense from that sort of aspect of things. (0:17:43) Al: But I think you also can, for lack of a better phrase, because I’m very tired. (0:17:51) Al: It’s the end of the weekend. Do science on them. I don’t know how to describe it. (0:17:57) Kelly: Like, experiments? (0:17:58) Al: No experiment. No, that would be immoral. No, inspect them and look at them. (0:18:06) Kelly: Oh, OK. (0:18:07) Al: There is like if you have… (0:18:09) Kelly: Oh, and pin them. (0:18:10) Kelly: It looks like you can pin them. (0:18:11) Al: Yeah, but those are dead. Like you’re not pinning a live one, right? (0:18:13) Kelly: Yeah, that would be immoral also. (0:18:18) Kelly: I hope so. (0:18:19) Kelly: I’m just looking at pictures. (0:18:22) Al: So yeah, it’s much more involved than a Tamagotchi. (0:18:28) Kelly: The graphics look really cool. (0:18:30) Al: Yeah, Cody is excited to play this. (0:18:33) Kelly: I’m sure that makes sense. (0:18:36) Kelly: This looks really cool, honestly. (0:18:37) Al: Anyway, coming on the 2nd of April. Next, we have the Fields of Mistria 2nd update. (0:18:45) Al: It’s out now, Kelly. Have you played it yet? (0:18:48) Kelly: Not since, uh, November, end of November, since we talked. (0:18:54) Al: Yeah, that was just the first update that was then, so. (0:18:56) Kelly: Yeah, ‘cause I had finished everything that you could possibly do at that point, (0:19:00) Kelly: and I was like, “Okay, I gotta, I don’t wanna kill the game for myself.” (0:19:00) Al: Yep. (0:19:04) Al: We were on the same page at that point, right? Basically, I think we’d both done everything you could do in the game and didn’t want to destroy our enthusiasm for the game. But does that mean you’re definitely not going to get jump into the game with this new update? (0:19:13) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:19:20) Kelly: I’m probably going to wait. (0:19:23) Kelly: I mean, I started breeding for different color animals (0:19:27) Kelly: and stuff, like the tears. (0:19:28) Kelly: So I had been failing my time with that, (0:19:30) Kelly: but mostly because I didn’t have a new game. (0:19:34) Kelly: But yeah, I’m going to wait and see. (0:19:35) Kelly: I got games coming out soon. (0:19:37) Kelly: We got “Rethopia.” (0:19:38) Al: Yes, oh, yes, that’s that (0:19:41) Kelly: I got a solid amount of games currently. (0:19:43) Kelly: So I gotta actually, like, focus on them. (0:19:46) Al: That’s fair. We’ve already covered what’s out in this update, so let’s not spend too long on it. (0:19:50) Kelly: Mm-hmm, okay. (0:19:50) Al: Next we have Gogotown. Their next update Spring Cleaning is out now. I presume you haven’t played (0:19:59) Al: this game. It is fun. It definitely feels very polished for the way that I talked about it in (0:20:07) Al: the episode I did on it. It’s very polished what is there, but it feels like it’s a long way to go (0:20:13) Al: to feel complete. (0:20:15) Kelly: Okay, that’s fair. I mean it seems very ambitious looking so hopefully they just get there (0:20:16) Al: Yeah, a number of things in this update, you can now store a tool and a vehicle on (0:20:29) Al: yourself, it says in a patented Townco dimensional pocket. Basically, you had vehicles, but you (0:20:36) Al: had to like park them somewhere. So now you can keep one of them on yourself. So you have (0:20:40) Al: to keep running back to the parking spaces, which is a nice update. There’s also (0:20:46) Al: a Town info app that gives you a bunch of information on the Town. 360 degree camera (0:20:52) Al: rotation, which is good. I like this. Oh yes, what was that? You’ve asked for it. We’ve (0:20:56) Kelly: I like their note on this. (0:21:00) Al: put in an experimental setting for you to rotate the camera 360 degrees. Fair enough. (0:21:05) Kelly: The screenshot is definitely making me dizzy though, looking at it too long. (0:21:07) Al: Yes, you can definitely tell us experimental. There’s some things that move out of view when (0:21:13) Al: when they shouldn’t do and stuff like that. (0:21:17) Al: A work in progress. (0:21:17) Kelly: But I mean like they they they put it out there that it’s experimental so. (0:21:20) Al: Yep, yep, and they’ve also added (0:21:23) Al: infinite seeds for your farming, which I am intrigued by because I thought (0:21:28) Al: when you planted a seed, the plant never never seemed to die. (0:21:33) Al: It just seemed to always grow new stuff. (0:21:35) Al: So you essentially had infinite stuff, right? (0:21:38) Al: Because as soon as you had a seed, you just (0:21:39) Al: planted it and you had that plant forever. (0:21:40) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:21:41) Al: But maybe I’m misremembering. (0:21:44) Kelly: Maybe they changed it. (0:21:46) Al: updates as well. But yeah, those are the main ones that I noticed. (0:21:49) Al: Next, we have Sunhaven have released their 2.0 update. (0:21:53) Al: And you’re like, oh, 2.0, that sounds like it might be a big update. (0:21:57) Al: It’s festivals. (0:22:00) Al: It doesn’t particularly feel huge. (0:22:02) Al: I’m intrigued as to why they decided to go for 2.0 at this point. (0:22:06) Al: OK. (0:22:10) Al: It adds a furniture festival, a garden (0:22:12) Al: festival, a pet festival, a mushroom festival, a snow festival. (0:22:16) Al: And a bunch of other (0:22:19) Al: furniture and stuff like that related to that. (0:22:22) Kelly: Okay, interesting how much of the game is actually out? (0:22:26) Al: Well, it’s no longer in early access. (0:22:28) Al: So I feel like I think they might have I feel like they’ve done everything that (0:22:32) Al: they said in the Kickstarter, like it’s the story is done and stuff like that. (0:22:38) Al: When I see people talking in the comments, they’re no longer complaining about things (0:22:43) Al: they’re talking about translations being bad. (0:22:49) Kelly: Yeah, this one’s been on my wish list, (0:22:50) Kelly: so I’ve been just waiting to see. (0:22:54) Al: I think I own it, yes, I do. (0:22:56) Al: I kick-started this one, I just haven’t played it yet. (0:22:59) Al: So this came out initially in 2023. (0:23:03) Al: Or was that, no, that was the 1.0, I think. (0:23:06) Al: Yeah, 2021 is when it first came out. (0:23:08) Al: And this was when I was still well and truly (0:23:11) Al: primarily Switch, but it wasn’t on Switch yet. (0:23:15) Al: And then I got a Steam Deck, (0:23:16) Al: and then suddenly I was very much on the Steam Deck, (0:23:18) Al: except for games that weren’t on the Steam Deck. (0:23:21) Al: but I had kind of really moved the path. (0:23:24) Al: I’m just thinking about this game, because it was, you know, it had been like two years or something since it started. (0:23:32) Al: Sometimes I do think that there is like a time period where if you’re not going to play a game (0:23:36) Al: within that time period, you’re probably never going to get to it. (0:23:38) Kelly: Yeah, no, definitely it definitely gets harder and harder to go back to it (0:23:44) Al: So maybe I’ll get to it one day, who knows, there’s so many games. (0:23:48) Al: Next we have farm folks or, as it is now called, (0:23:54) Al: Autonomica? Good job, going from a game name that was just slightly awkward to say to one that I don’t know how to pronounce. (0:24:02) Al: Autonomica? Auto… Autonomica. (0:24:04) Kelly: Oh, Tom, oh, oh, Tom, I don’t know, I don’t know. (0:24:08) Al: Autonomica. That’s what you were trying to say, wasn’t it? Autonomica. (0:24:13) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, something like that. (0:24:14) Al: No, I don’t think it’s Autonomica. (0:24:18) Kelly: I don’t think it is either, (0:24:19) Kelly: but I was just trying to see if I could say it. (0:24:20) Kelly: And apparently I can’t. (0:24:24) Al: For those who don’t know the story behind this game, it was started as farm folks, and then the company that was making it went bust. (0:24:32) Al: And then another company basically, I don’t know whether they bought the company that went bust or whether they bought the rights to the game and the code and stuff, (0:24:40) Al: but they continued development. So the company that’s making this is not the company that did the Kickstarter for this game. (0:24:46) Al: Although I’m pretty sure I saw somewhere that they are going to honor the Kickstarter, which is always good. (0:24:52) Al: Um, don’t take– (0:24:52) Kelly: nice isn’t there another game with like a similar ish name to this new name but (0:24:54) Al: I’d need to confirm that, but I feel like I saw that somewhere. (0:25:05) Kelly: also like how do you go from farm folks which is like the most generic farm game (0:25:08) Al: Yeah. (0:25:10) Kelly: name I’ve ever heard now which is not saying a lot because a lot of these farm (0:25:14) Kelly: games have a lot of similar names it is but how do you go from that to what do (0:25:16) Al: Naming is hard, all right. (0:25:20) Kelly: What are you calling it? Autonomica? (0:25:22) Kelly: Autonomica. Oh, it’s a musical artist. Yes, I knew I’d seen this name somewhere before. (0:25:24) Al: Autonomica. Autonomica? (0:25:30) Al: Oh. (0:25:36) Al: So they’ve made they have went the new (0:25:38) Al: company that took over the game have basically been moving it in a different direction. (0:25:43) Al: So it’s it is still farming. (0:25:46) Kelly: It looks like Fortnite with Farfian. (0:25:46) Al: It’s not. (0:25:49) Al: Yeah, they’ve never really explained their reasoning, but they’re like, it’s not just farming. (0:25:53) Al: It’s so much more than that. (0:25:55) Al: So therefore we think farm folks is a misleading name and I’m like, OK, but I don’t. (0:25:58) Kelly: Okay. That makes more sense. But I don’t get anything about farming from this name. (0:26:04) Al: No, but you do get the automation part of it, which I think they’re really big enough. (0:26:09) Al: The college so that their new blurb on steam is Autonomica is an open world life simulator (0:26:16) Al: game that seamlessly. Oh, my word, I hate this so much seamlessly merges resource (0:26:22) Al: management and automation with farm building, extensive customization, (0:26:26) Al: PvP slash PvE battles and elusive phantoms. What is this jumble of words? (0:26:34) Al: Play solo or with friends to build your mega farm factory with almost no limits. (0:26:38) Al: It is a farming game. It’s just like a industrial scale farming game. (0:26:44) Al: Right. And I get why they wanted to change. (0:26:48) Al: Why they wanted it to be clear that this was not the same game that they took over. (0:26:52) Al: But also it is farming game. (0:26:57) Al: Like you can’t say it’s not a farming game. It is a farming game. (0:27:01) Al: Build your mega farm factory, they say in the new blurb. (0:27:04) Al: Like I don’t understand the issue with it. (0:27:06) Kelly: All of these screenshots, too, are just like, what is that game? (0:27:09) Al: Yes, Factorio. Yeah. (0:27:11) Kelly: Factorio? (0:27:14) Kelly: It’s like that, but with farming more. (0:27:16) Al: Open world 3D Factorio. (0:27:20) Al: Which I honestly am excited by. I think this game could be really good. (0:27:25) Al: I just don’t understand why they really didn’t like the name and they decided to change. (0:27:29) Al: But I don’t think this is a better name. (0:27:32) Al: That’s all I’m going to say. I get why they didn’t like the old game. (0:27:35) Al: Old name. I’m not sure this is better. (0:27:37) Kelly: Honestly, they can take this if they want to, but I think it should have been (0:27:44) Kelly: auto-pharmica, if anything. (0:27:46) Al: I would, yeah, I would certainly be more better. Yeah, I don’t disagree with you. (0:27:49) Kelly: It would be better than this. (0:27:54) Kelly: I would assume that this is some sort of space or underwater survival game (0:28:02) Al: Oh, interesting. Yeah. Anyway, they changed the name. RIP farm folks. Long live farm folks. (0:28:03) Kelly: just going off the name alone. (0:28:08) Kelly: It’s so weird too, because I don’t even like farm books. (0:28:14) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:28:18) Kelly: I digress. (0:28:19) Al: Coral Island have announced their 2025 roadmap. They have 1.2 planned to come out in the first (0:28:27) Al: half of the year, bringing multiplayer and revamped romance. (0:28:32) Al: Which I was looking at what they say about the romance. So let’s talk about the multiplayer (0:28:37) Al: first. There’s probably not a huge amount to say. Basically, it looks like it’s stardew (0:28:41) Al: style multiplayer. You’re all multiple people on the farm. Great, fine. I’m sure it will be (0:28:46) Al: great for people who love. I am not particularly interested just because I don’t want to actually (0:28:51) Al: play my games with other people. I like these games because I’m playing them on my own. (0:28:52) Kelly: I have no desire, I have no desire to play these. These types of games are for me to play by myself, so I can be a maniac, like, let me be a psychopath by my- (0:28:59) Al: Exactly. Exactly. (0:29:03) Al: I have tried so many times to play multiplayer Stardew, and I just can’t because I have to be (0:29:08) Kelly: Oh, no. No, no, no. (0:29:10) Al: the one who has this. The problem is, right? You have to organize to play at the same time, (0:29:16) Al: and that is just not fun. Organizing times for these. (0:29:16) Kelly: No, because either you’re micromanaging all of it, too. (0:29:25) Kelly: It’s like, how do you organize the time to play together and also organize how you’re (0:29:30) Kelly: playing together? (0:29:32) Al: Yeah, the best way to do that is just be like, right, you do the farming you do the mine, there you go, go, go do your jobs. (0:29:32) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:29:38) Al: And yeah, I don’t, I don’t particularly find it fun, I get why people might. And so if you are excited about Coral Island multiplayer. (0:29:46) Al: There you go, it’s coming. I hope you enjoy it. I’m not going to do this. (0:29:48) Kelly: I think the only multiplayer game I like is Monster Hunter, to be quite honest. (0:29:58) Al: So I was also looking at the romance revamp that they’ve got. (0:30:02) Al: And I think the only difference is, so there’s a bunch of heart events that existed already. (0:30:10) Al: And it looks like you have to see the previous heart events to unlock certain, to unlock (0:30:17) Al: more hearts. (0:30:18) Al: So once you get to five hearts, you have to watch the heart events for them before you (0:30:24) Al: can do heart six to eight. (0:30:26) Al: And then you have to watch another heart event and give a locket. (0:30:32) Al: Before you can start dating and do the next two hearts, which then you have to watch the (0:30:37) Al: other events and propose before you can get married and do the other five. (0:30:43) Al: I do think this is better because what I found when I was doing this, because I got married (0:30:49) Al: in Coral Island, is I had no clue that there were heart events still to do, which is probably (0:30:55) Al: still going to be a problem here, but let’s put that aside for a minute. (0:30:59) Kelly: There’s no like there’s no like heart marker next in like the (0:31:02) Al: So there are hearts, but it’s not like, it’s just like how many hearts you have. (0:31:09) Al: Like there was no like indication that there’s an event you should be doing. (0:31:12) Al: So like I got to 10 hearts and then I went and tried to propose and they were like, oh, (0:31:17) Al: I’m not ready yet. (0:31:18) Al: And I’m like, but this is the point where I meant to be able to propose. (0:31:20) Al: Why can’t I do it? (0:31:22) Al: And I googled and it was like, oh, because you’re missing heart events. (0:31:24) Al: And I hadn’t done any of the heart events. (0:31:27) Al: And I don’t know how it happens in Carta Island, but in Stardew, (0:31:29) Kelly: How– so I was going to say, it’s similarly set up, (0:31:32) Al: I was always finding the heart events. (0:31:37) Kelly: like you just trigger the event when you encounter them (0:31:40) Al: Yes, and there are a few heart events in Stardew that were very niche and you (0:31:41) Kelly: in a certain location. (0:31:46) Al: wouldn’t immediately find, but like by that point, you’re like, oh, (0:31:51) Al: I know that these things are coming, so I should be expecting them. (0:31:53) Al: I hadn’t done a single one in Carta Island. (0:31:56) Al: How had I not triggered any of the heart events? (0:31:59) Kelly: Yeah, that’s crazy. That doesn’t seem like a good sub. (0:32:00) Al: It was very confusing. (0:32:02) Al: And also, I don’t think the heart events are required in Stardew for marriage. (0:32:10) Kelly: I don’t think they are either. I think they’re just, like, for you. (0:32:12) Al: Yes, and you can get extra points by doing them. (0:32:16) Al: And they’re nice, and you want to know about the story because all the characters are good characters. (0:32:16) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:32:22) Al: I was going to say great, but no, not all the characters are great. (0:32:22) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:32:24) Al: All of them are good characters. (0:32:28) Al: Um, but yeah, I just, it was really, so if they have a. (0:32:32) Al: Way to make it clear. (0:32:34) Al: That you’re now expecting to see events, then that would be good. (0:32:38) Al: Um, I don’t know. (0:32:40) Al: Um, we’ll see, I guess they don’t talk about that. (0:32:44) Al: I don’t think, but it’s interesting restricting it that much. (0:32:48) Al: So you, you have to see the events before you can continue your heart progress. (0:32:53) Al: Uh, I don’t know how I feel about that. (0:32:55) Kelly: Yeah, that seems kind of iffy the way you just described your past experience, so I guess we’ll see. (0:33:00) Al: Aha, the revamped romance system unlocks at heart level two and you’ll see a prompt (0:33:05) Al: in the relationship UI whenever a hangout event is available. (0:33:10) Al: That is good. (0:33:11) Al: It’s now making it clear when you can do something and when there’s something to do. (0:33:15) Al: That is good. (0:33:16) Al: And if you click on them inside the menu and it shows like all the stuff that you’ve done (0:33:22) Al: with them, you know, the stuff you’ve learned that they love and stuff like that, and like (0:33:25) Al: there, the birthday and stuff, it says unlock requirement, see hangout event. (0:33:30) Al: I don’t know what happened to three but anyway, whatever. (0:33:37) Al: I think that means for heart two and for heart four. (0:33:41) Al: That’s what I think it’s talking about. (0:33:43) Al: So they are definitely making it much more visible, that aspect of things. (0:33:47) Al: So that is good. (0:33:48) Al: They’re also adding more heart events for after marriage, which is also good because (0:33:52) Al: one of the things I’ve really complained about Carl Island is that your spouse ends up turning (0:33:55) Al: into a hollow husk after you get married. (0:33:58) Kelly: That’s pretty sad. (0:34:01) Al: - It was so sad. (0:34:02) Al: The minute you got married, (0:34:05) Al: they just stand in your house all day doing nothing. (0:34:07) Kelly: Oh no. (0:34:09) Al: It was the worst. (0:34:09) Al: I’ve taken your life (0:34:11) Al: and you are now just an ornament in my house. (0:34:15) Al: It was so sad. (0:34:16) Al: So hopefully that’s improved a lot with this. (0:34:20) Al: And then the 1.3 update will include your kids growing up. (0:34:27) Kelly: that’s cool that’s what I literally just started like wondering if it’s like generational like do (0:34:27) Al: And it is, I wonder how far it will go. (0:34:30) Al: I don’t know. (0:34:36) Al: I would expect not. (0:34:38) Al: I expect it would just be, oh, they grow up to be a teenager and then they stop sort of thing. (0:34:42) Al: That is my expectation. (0:34:44) Kelly: that makes sense because that’s a big that’s that’s a lot doing (0:34:44) Al: I don’t think they’ll go full hog. (0:34:49) Al: Especially as they could actually make it like real-time in-game, right? (0:34:52) Al: For every year, they are a year older. (0:34:54) Al: And so you would actually have to do 18 in-game years. (0:35:00) Al: Before your child is an adult. (0:35:04) Kelly: - Hmm. (0:35:05) Al: So they could just go, I’m sorry, if you’ve played 18 years in this game, you’ve played too much. (0:35:12) Al: But I mean, I don’t know, maybe it will work. (0:35:14) Al: I mean, I do know that some games where you have kids that grow up, (0:35:18) Al: you then die and you become your kid. (0:35:20) Al: They could do something like that. (0:35:22) Kelly: That’s true, that would be cool. (0:35:23) Al: And then you inherit the farm and, you know, 20% of it is taken in tax. (0:35:31) Al: Yeah, so they’ve not got a huge amount of information in the 1.3. (0:35:35) Al: They also said there’s going to be a Merfolk festival. (0:35:39) Al: But they’ve not got any details on how the kids grow up. (0:35:42) Al: But that is coming in the second half of this year. (0:35:44) Al: Have you played, you’ve not played Coral Island? (0:35:46) Kelly: No. I really try to avoid early access. (0:35:47) Al: No. (0:35:50) Al: Well, it’s not early access anymore. (0:35:51) Kelly: Uh, oh, it’s out, out? (0:35:53) Al: Yeah. (0:35:54) Al: The 1.0 came out just over a year ago. (0:35:58) Kelly: Okay, I must have missed that. (0:35:58) Al: and then they go and they go on. (0:36:00) Kelly: I thought it was still in early access, still. Okay. (0:36:00) Al: 1.1 sometime last year? No. The 1.0 was technically not early access, but realistically (0:36:06) Al: was early access. The 1.1 feels like what the 1.0 should have been, but the multiplayer (0:36:12) Al: was always coming after early access. So I don’t feel like you would be missing out if (0:36:17) Al: you played now compared to if you played two years ago, you definitely were missing out (0:36:22) Al: in a lot. (0:36:22) Kelly: Okay, okay, maybe one day (0:36:24) Al: All right. And we also, we all maybe, maybe, probably not. We also have (0:36:30) Al: a new game by the developers of EverDream Valley. In fact, this is a sequel to EverDream (0:36:36) Al: Valley called EverDream Village. I get what they’re doing with that name, but also I am (0:36:42) Al: going to constantly mess up. Which one is which? They also feel the wrong way around, (0:36:47) Kelly: The valley and village is like too close to each other. (0:36:53) Al: you start in a village and then you go out to a valley. (0:36:53) Kelly: Yes, it should have been, this should be a prequel. (0:36:57) Kelly: Yeah, this is the prequel in my, (0:36:59) Kelly: I literally thought like this should be the prequel (0:37:00) Al: Set 10 years after the events of EverDream Valley, EverDream Village brings a whole (0:37:07) Al: new chapter with living, breathing village and a world beyond your farm. Now you’re built, (0:37:13) Al: this is the thing. It’s like the problem was EverDream Valley wasn’t really a valley. It (0:37:17) Al: was EverDream Farm. Right. And if it was that way, it was EverDream Farm and then EverDream (0:37:21) Al: Village. That makes more logical sense to be our expansion on that. Right. You’ll build (0:37:22) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:37:28) Al: relationships explore mysterious islands. (0:37:30) Al: The Valley may have been home but it’s time to explore a world full of new adventures, (0:37:44) Kelly: - Yeah, it doesn’t seem right, there’s something off. (0:37:57) Al: NPCs and endless possibilities. I don’t really get whirled and (0:38:00) Al: abilities from village. I know what they mean. I know what they (0:38:02) Kelly: - No, but I think they just mean the world of Everdream. (0:38:08) Al: mean. I know what they mean. Build your ideal cozy farm in a (0:38:12) Al: living village. Form bonds with fellow villagers to lend a hand (0:38:16) Al: as you grow crops, care for animals and craft a corner of (0:38:18) Al: paradise. Sail across enchanted islands to discover new resources (0:38:22) Al: and adventures along the way. Maybe it’s definitely not a (0:38:25) Kelly: Maybe there is a world. (0:38:28) Al: village. (0:38:31) Al: Anyway, I mean, you can ride a pig in Evergreen Valley, so they hopefully have something like that in this game. (0:38:36) Kelly: I’m looking at that right now. (0:38:38) Kelly: That actually looks really cute. (0:38:39) Kelly: That’s a good feature. (0:38:40) Al: I haven’t played this game. It’s been on my list for forever. (0:38:44) Kelly: The first one. (0:38:45) Al: Yes, well, the second one is now yet, so of course I’ve not played that. (0:38:48) Kelly: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:38:50) Al: It’s just coming soon. They’ve not said when, it’s coming just soon. (0:38:54) Kelly: One day. (0:38:54) Al: One day. All right. (0:38:56) Kelly: Do you see this tag at the bottom on their news updates? (0:39:00) Al: The second one is that in the Evergreen Valley page? (0:39:04) Kelly: On the Steam page, yeah. (0:39:07) Al: Where am I looking? Where am I looking? (0:39:07) Kelly: I guess this is who they base the pig off of. (0:39:11) Kelly: Let me send it to you. (0:39:12) Kelly: I’ll just send it to you. (0:39:12) Al: There’s too many pages here. That’s the problem. (0:39:13) Kelly: I would do that. (0:39:15) Kelly: It really is. (0:39:15) Al: On their news. Oh, happy birthday, Peter Curleytail. (0:39:18) Kelly: Recent events, yes. (0:39:20) Al: I don’t know what to say. That is quite a pig. (0:39:24) Kelly: He’s a little frightening, but kind of cute. (0:39:26) Al: Yes, that is quite the pig. (0:39:29) Kelly: But I like the interpretation of him. (0:39:31) Al: Yeah, I like the name Peter Curleytail. (0:39:35) Kelly: Yeah, I. (0:39:36) Kelly: I’ve never seen a pig like that before, so it’s a little haunting. (0:39:42) Al: All right, that’s us done with the news. (0:39:44) Al: We are now going to talk about grimoire, grimoire. Is it grimoire? (0:39:51) Al: Grimoire. Grimoire grows. And grimoire is something that’s a witch term, isn’t it? (0:39:59) Al: like what it what I keep hearing great (0:40:00) Kelly: Yeah it’s always like I feel like it’s like swamps and grimoires and uh no it’s um what (0:40:00) Al: memoirs and lots of these witchy games. (0:40:08) Al: That explains that because, right, okay. (0:40:10) Kelly: is it a grimoire is a the book it’s the book it’s like your book of spells that’s what it is. (0:40:17) Al: And the grove is the land that you’re doing (0:40:22) Al: because a grove is like a kind of forest type thing. (0:40:26) Kelly: Yeah, yeah. But no, it’s a little book that you… (0:40:28) Al: Okay, makes sense. (0:40:30) Kelly: have all your information in. (0:40:33) Al: So, a quick introduction to this game. (0:40:38) Al: It is described on Steam as join the witches in their quest to restore the grimoire groves, (0:40:45) Al: master magic, grow cute plant creatures, and discover the mystery of the rainbow socks (0:40:52) Al: in this cozy roguelite dungeon crawler. (0:40:55) Al: The way I would describe this in my whole one hour and 20 minutes playing it (0:40:59) Al: is it is kind of cult of the lamb, but without actual, without. (0:41:09) Al: Combat the way you interact in your runs is different. (0:41:13) Al: It’s not combat so much. (0:41:16) Al: And it’s less about building a village and more about restoring nature. (0:41:24) Al: Would that be a fair way of putting it? (0:41:26) Kelly: Yeah, I think so. It’s, it’s, it’s… (0:41:29) Kelly: But you still, I feel like I’m fighting. (0:41:31) Kelly: Maybe I feel less like I’m fighting and I’m more surviving. (0:41:31) Al: Yes, okay, so I mean, okay, you could make an argument that it is basically just fighting, (0:41:39) Al: but it’s it feels so you’re feeding the plants instead of fighting them, I think is how they (0:41:44) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, but no, I’m just I’m just being a jerk. I think it’s I think that’s a good. (0:41:44) Al: describe it. So that’s why I’ve been like is not. No, no, it’s, it’s, it’s fair in terms (0:41:50) Al: of game play is very similar to most other Roguelike action games. (0:41:51) Kelly: Yes, I also think it it has that. Yeah, yeah, it has that cuteness that I think (0:41:59) Kelly: cultural land kind of has, which is why I think like they remind me like like you said like it (0:42:04) Kelly: makes you think of them. You have the juxtaposition. Yeah, yeah. (0:42:06) Al: I think the cuteness works much better in Cult of the Lam (0:42:09) Al: because it’s… exactly, exactly. (0:42:12) Al: Whereas here, the whole world is cute. (0:42:14) Kelly: But I love the saturation in this game. So like that for me is like, and I loved Call to the Land. (0:42:21) Al: Okay, I will say the game looks lovely. (0:42:24) Al: It looks really nice. (0:42:25) Al: I do love how the game actually looks. (0:42:28) Al: The graphics, the design of the characters, (0:42:36) Al: and character, but also the plants and everything. (0:42:38) Al: I do like all of that. (0:42:39) Al: That is all nice. (0:42:41) Al: I will absolutely agree with that. (0:42:44) Al: Yes. (0:42:46) Kelly: I just think it’s like you don’t always, you don’t really get a lot of games that are like, (0:42:52) Kelly: it’s like saturated, but it’s also pastel, like there’s two different kind of colored (0:42:56) Kelly: tones going on in the game, which I think is interesting. (0:43:00) Kelly: Like the backgrounds are more saturated, but the creatures, the plants are a little more (0:43:04) Kelly: pastel leaning, but it’s so vibrant. (0:43:07) Kelly: Like a lot of games, they’re so dark a lot of the time or like aiming to be more realistic (0:43:11) Al: - Yeah. (0:43:13) Kelly: in their tones, I guess. (0:43:15) Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:43:16) Kelly: Yes, but yeah, no, I love all of the designs. (0:43:17) Al: No, you’re definitely right about that. (0:43:20) Al: You wouldn’t look at this and think it was something else. (0:43:20) Kelly: I love all the little plants. (0:43:23) Al: That’s very true. (0:43:23) Kelly: No, exactly. (0:43:26) Al: So I guess there’s two main parts to this game, (0:43:29) Al: and there’s obviously a lot of other things, (0:43:31) Al: lot of things that I won’t have done in the main area. (0:43:33) Al: But like most of these roguelites, (0:43:37) Al: you have your hub, (0:43:38) Al: which is an area that is run– (0:43:41) Al: was previously run by some other witch– (0:43:44) Al: I can’t remember her name, maybe– (0:43:45) Kelly: Is it lavender? (0:43:47) Kelly: I think so. (0:43:49) Al: and it’s been taken over by thorns, (0:43:53) Al: and it’s all dreary, and you are to restore it. (0:43:57) Al: That’s the main idea. (0:43:58) Kelly: You’re the young spry witch coming in to fix it. (0:43:59) Al: And you do that by classic cliche, (0:44:05) Al: but it’s there for a reason. (0:44:08) Al: and your runs that you do. (0:44:11) Al: I think of roguelites specifically talking about roguelites not roguelikes (0:44:22) Al: well let’s not have that debate again. I find there are two types there are ones where (0:44:31) Al: your hub the point of the hub is to improve your powers skills etc to then do the runs and the (0:44:38) Kelly: Mm-hmm. Yes, I was going to say, very– (0:44:41) Al: runs is the purpose of the game and that would be your like Hades stuff like that. (0:44:49) Al: And then there’s this type of thing this and Cult of the Lamb where your hub is the point of (0:44:55) Al: the game and the runs are to gather resources for doing things in your hub. (0:45:00) Kelly: I would say it’s kind of like a mix, I think, between Cult of the Lamb and Hades in that aspect. (0:45:07) Kelly: Because I do think Cult of the Lamb, there’s so much that you do in your hub area. (0:45:12) Kelly: And I don’t think this quite has near that amount of stuff. (0:45:16) Kelly: Like, you have a lot of updates and things you can interact with. (0:45:20) Kelly: I don’t want to spoil anything. (0:45:22) Kelly: But Cult of the Lamb, you could like run the village until you ran out of resources. (0:45:28) Al: I guess my point is like you’re not the run isn’t the like with Hades you are escaping hell (0:45:28) Kelly: like I spent like five minutes like you know up (0:45:31) Kelly: and then I got another run (0:45:37) Kelly: the sole purpose yes (0:45:40) Al: and your run is escaping hell and if you fail you go back to the hub world and you try again. (0:45:45) Al: Whereas in this and with Cult of the Lamb the point is the runs you’re doing to do (0:45:50) Al: things to bring back you’re never like disappearing and I think that’s that is very much (0:45:53) Kelly: No, that’s a fair point, yeah. (0:45:58) Al: why I liked Cult of the Lamb because I was building up this thing and I really hate the (0:46:05) Al: overall feeling of Hades where if you fail you fail and you’re back to the start and you have (0:46:09) Al: to start again and so I was really excited for this because I was like oh maybe this will be (0:46:15) Al: another one that I like because it’s that sort of style but I mean I guess I need to say at some (0:46:21) Al: point I didn’t like the combat in this game. I didn’t but I feel like (0:46:24) Kelly: Did you try it on easy mode? (0:46:27) Kelly: I d

Many property management business owners out there struggle with having a bad brand, bad pricing, cheapo clients, a lack of confidence, and more. In today's episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth experts Jason and Sarah Hull sit down in-person with property manager and DoorGrow client, Kelly Rafuse, to talk about her journey with property management. You'll Learn [04:53] How to Be Picky with the Clients You Bring on [10:59] Overcoming the “Hustler” Mindset [15:04] Choosing an Effective Brand [21:07] Cheapos, Normals, and Premium Buyers Tweetables  ”As you live and you grow in this business, you learn what makes money and what doesn't.” “ The more confident you are, the more some of these… difficult personality types will kind of abdicate and allow you to lead them.” “ It's better to be at the top than to be competing with the garbage at the bottom.” “ Need is scarcity, need is starving, and need is survival.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Kelly: You know, as you live and you grow in this business, you learn what makes money and what doesn't. And I learned how to manage property the hard way.  [00:00:07] Jason: But you learned it.  [00:00:08] Kelly: Yes.  [00:00:10] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives. And you're interested in growing in business and life. And you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. [00:00:37] You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason Hull, founder and CEO of DoorGrow, and Sarah Hull, the co owner and COO of DoorGrow. And now let's get into the show.  [00:01:13] So our guest today, we're hanging out with Kelly. Kelly, introduce yourself.  [00:01:17] Kelly: Hi there, my name is Kelly Rafuse with Crimson Cape Property Management in Wilkes Barre, Pennsylvania.  [00:01:22] Jason: And you have a really nice logo. Where'd you get that really nice logo?  [00:01:25] Kelly: It's this little mastermind I joined called DoorGrow helped me with that.  [00:01:29] Jason: And it's, I was saying, I think it's cool because it's like you are flying right there. [00:01:33] It's like, it like reminds me of you.  [00:01:37] Kelly: Well, yeah. I had this Marvel Comics stud fetish, so.  [00:01:41] Jason: Yes. Okay. You're the Marvel comic gal. All right. So really excited to be hanging out. We're actually in Pennsylvania because this is kind of the neck of the woods Sarah grew up in and managed properties nearby and you manage properties in a neighboring market and so. [00:01:59] The same market. The same market. She, yeah. Exact same market.  [00:02:02] Sarah: I left and she has the market.  [00:02:05] Kelly: While you were here, I was just managing my own portfolio.  [00:02:08] Jason: Oh, okay.  [00:02:09] Kelly: And people were coming to me to manage theirs, and that's how I got into this mess.  [00:02:15] Jason: Yeah. Well, give us a little more background on you, Kelly. [00:02:18] How'd you get into property management?  [00:02:20] Kelly: Oh, well, I started off as a real estate investor. You know, buying homes out here in Northeast PA. It's a very good place to invest in property. Cash flow is, I mean, I think cap rates were like 12 percent when I got in. So, I mean, it was huge, and honestly, I was trying to replace my income because I'd gotten as far as I could go in my former career, you know, hit a huge glass ceiling, and realized that, you know, real estate was probably my ticket to freedom. [00:02:45] Jason: What was your former career?  [00:02:47] Kelly: I was on the radio.  [00:02:48] Jason: Yeah, okay, you've got a great voice for it, so.  [00:02:51] Thank you very much.  [00:02:53] Yeah, so you were doing the radio.  [00:02:54] Kelly: Yeah, so I actually got into this market, and I liked it here. I actually, I did my two years and then moved to a bigger market. I was in Hartford, Connecticut for a while. [00:03:03] And then an opportunity to come back presented itself. And I came back because I genuinely like the area. And you know, the inexpensive real estate was an attraction. And then My husband and I got into investing in properties. We built up quite a portfolio. We had 25 units of our own at one point. [00:03:20] We're down to 14 now. We sold a few off that, you know, really weren't moneymakers for us. But, you know, as you live and you grow in this business, you learn what makes money and what doesn't. And I learned how to manage property the hard way.  [00:03:33] Jason: But you learned it.  [00:03:34] Kelly: Yes. I made all the mistakes.  [00:03:37] Jason: Yeah. And that's sometimes learning through mistakes and pain. [00:03:41] I sometimes joke that DoorGrow was built on thousands of mistakes.  [00:03:45] Kelly: You're telling me. And I will introduce My biggest pain point in just a second here. So what caused me to join DoorGrow is my husband's a real estate broker. And so people were banging on his door. "Can you manage my property? Can you manage my property?" It's like, "well, I don't do that, but my wife does."  [00:04:03] Jason: Yeah.  [00:04:04] Kelly: And I'm like, well, I can't manage their property. I don't have a real estate license. And so it was a whole year of, "come on! Just get the license. Just do it! Just do it. Come on!" So I got the license. And I took on one of his investor clients, and I joined DoorGrow, like all in the same day. [00:04:23] And what I found out when I joined DoorGrow was I never should have taken on that client.  [00:04:27] Jason: That was the price of tuition. It's one of the key lessons that defines you in business, which is you learn those lessons and not take on bad clients. Well, I mean, for us, it's been really inspiring and exciting to see your journey as an entrepreneur and see you kind of get all this ready and get things developed and start to grow. [00:04:46] And so, we were talking about it, like, what should we talk about on the podcast today with Kelly? And you had mentioned.  [00:04:53] Sarah: Yeah, I had said, I think for me, one of the biggest shifts that I've seen in Kelly again and again and again is shifts in mindset because it was just even a few weeks ago where maybe a month ago or something, was relatively recent, where you were saying like, "oh, I read this book and it changed my life I'm waking up at like 4:30 in the morning and structuring my day different" and it was just again and again. But you've had these little shifts that end up leading to these huge changes for you and how you run things and how you structure your day and like just even your, your energy levels seem to be more protected now. [00:05:32] Kelly: Yeah, I'm not getting up at 4:30 in the morning anymore. Although I just learned yesterday I might have to start again because my daughter wants to join the swim team. Oh. And they practice it. 5 a. m. sometimes, but yeah, I mean, it's, it's been a struggle because I'm not only a real estate entrepreneur. [00:05:48] I am also, you know, a wife of a whirlwind. I mean, my husband is a broker. He's into wholesaling. He's into flipping. And I go to manage him.  [00:05:58] Jason: The whirlwind broker.  [00:06:00] Kelly: Yeah, and,  [00:06:02] Jason: yeah.  [00:06:02] Kelly: No, we'll say no more about that.  [00:06:04] Sarah: There's a lot going on. [00:06:05] Lots of moving pieces.  [00:06:06] Kelly: He's a genius. He's like a Bill Gates level genius. [00:06:09] I'm just waiting for the ship to come in. Yeah, nice. It's been 30 years, but it's coming.  [00:06:13] Jason: So what do you feel like maybe was the first mindset thing that you noticed in Kelly, kind of overcoming? Or what do you feel like was your first?  [00:06:22] Sarah: I don't know if I can think of a first, but I know that there's been several that I'd like to highlight. [00:06:27] Jason: Okay.  [00:06:27] Sarah: So I think one of the things is being much more picky with what clients you take on and what properties you take on and how you kind of screen and vet people.  [00:06:41] Jason: Maybe that first client helped you learn that lesson.  [00:06:44] Sarah: Yes.  [00:06:45] Jason: Yeah. So what, what was the lesson there? Like, what did you figure out?  [00:06:48] Kelly: Oh, wow. You know, the, the first thing is I have to see if our philosophies match. [00:06:53] Jason: You and the client.  [00:06:54] Kelly: Yes. And when I got into real estate investing, I admit I'm a bit of an idealist. I know you're into personality types.  [00:07:01] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:01] Kelly: And I test as an INFP.  [00:07:03] Jason: Okay.  [00:07:03] Kelly: So I probably have no business being in any business at all, but yet here I am. But I'm a dreamer. I'm a visionary. And so my first company was, and still is called Good People, Good Homes, LLC. [00:07:15] And I own property in that LLC. I'm not really doing business in it. It just holds property for me. But when I started it, it was supposed to be the company and it was: you buy these distressed properties in these neighborhoods and you fix them up and you put great people in them and it brings up the whole neighborhood and then everybody loves you and we hold hands and sing Kumbaya and that didn't really happen. [00:07:36] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:36] Kelly: But I did improve a lot of properties.  [00:07:39] Jason: Okay.  [00:07:39] Kelly: Right. Yeah.  [00:07:41] Sarah: I think arguably in this market, you are outdoing anything that I've ever seen because the befores and afters are just wild. And the rent rates before and after are wild. And this area, yes, you can absolutely get a great deal, a great bargain on real estate, and that doesn't come without its challenges and its problems. [00:08:06] But one of the things that I think is just so great in this area that you do is you take these distressed properties and you make them beautiful and livable and safe. And you provide a wonderful home now on something before that was dilapidated.  [00:08:25] Kelly: And the market's full of C class properties. You know, I hear a lot of property managers say, "Why are you even bothering with those?" [00:08:31] Well, honestly, there isn't anything else. Yeah, that's what we hear. You work with what you got. And I probably wouldn't be a real estate investor if the market wasn't like this. Because that's how I got in. I didn't make a ton of money in radio. I didn't. But I made enough to get in, you know, with a C class property. [00:08:48] And now those C class properties are paying for my life, and my daughter's life, and it's beautiful. The property management company? That's just icing on the cake, but I think it might even eclipse what I've been able to do with my rentals.  [00:09:00] Jason: Oh, I'm sure.  [00:09:01] Kelly: And there's a need for it.  [00:09:02] Jason: Yeah. Big need.  [00:09:04] Kelly: Yeah. So the biggest thing I learned, back to your question about how to vet clients, does their philosophy match mine? Do they believe their C class property could be turned into a desirable place to live? And yes, you will be charging market rent for that, which is a lot more than maybe you thought you could charge. And you'll get a better class tenant that way. Or are they just happy not doing anything to the property, just letting it be what it is and getting whoever they can get into it and, you know, getting whatever money they can for it. I don't really want to work with those people.  [00:09:38] Jason: Do you find part of this though is just selling? [00:09:41] It's like convincing them to align with your vision? Because it sounds like you have a better vision than a lot of the people that might come to you.  [00:09:48] Kelly: Sometimes when I show them the spreadsheet, of, you know, what I've done for some of my other clients, including the first one that I told you about. I mean, I really turned some of his properties around. [00:09:59] And I've tried to fire him twice. Yeah.  [00:10:01] He won't go and, you know, he's also a third of my income, so I'm going to keep him on. And, but the thing is, he's kind of listening to me now. Kind of.  [00:10:11] Sarah: He's open. Well, I think. It's like a walnut shell. We've just cracked it open. Maybe some of the good ideas are seeping through. [00:10:18] Jason: I've talked about this before, but I think also part of it is, as we've seen, you come into your own in more confidence in what you're doing and the more confident you are, the more some of these A personality types or these difficult personality types will kind of abdicate and allow you to lead them. [00:10:36] And I talk about metaphorically punching people in the face sometimes. So you probably maybe punched them in the face metaphorically a couple of times since then. And so setting those healthier boundaries. Is something we naturally do when we start to believe in ourselves more. And so what other shifts do you feel like you've noticed in Kelly? [00:10:55] Or what are some of the things that DoorGrow's helped you with? Are you making changes too?  [00:10:59] Kelly: Well, like Sarah said, a lot of the mindset stuff, I mean, a big revelation came to me when I was at DoorGrow live.  [00:11:05] Jason: Yeah, what was that?  [00:11:07] Kelly: Well, first of all, getting to DoorGrow Live was a challenge because I was in the midst of my survival mode. [00:11:13] I'm a solopreneur still. I do everything myself. My husband's my broker of record, but, like, he's off doing his thing. Sure. So.  [00:11:21] Jason: You were doing everything, you're really busy, and you're like, how do I take a break to even just go to DoorGrow Live?  [00:11:26] Kelly: Yeah, and, you know, then I've got this mindset that, you know, how can I afford it? [00:11:30] But the thing is, I did have the money to go. That's another thing. I've got a poverty mindset I need to get past. And when I went to DoorGrow Live, that was really thrown in my face. Because I was talking about the challenges of being a solopreneur. And one of the pieces of advice that I was given by one of the speakers is, "What's your time worth?" [00:11:49] You know, you can't be doing all of these things when you pay somebody. Yeah, and I thought, well, what's my time worth? And then this little voice in the back of my head said, well, not a whole heck of a lot.  [00:12:00] Jason: You told everybody that. You said, "not a whole heck of a lot."  [00:12:04] Kelly: Yeah.  [00:12:04] Jason: And we're like, "oh, okay."  [00:12:06] Kelly: Yeah.  [00:12:07] Jason: Yeah. [00:12:07] Kelly: Well, I mean, that comes from, you know, my background. I grew up without a lot.  [00:12:11] Jason: Yeah. You know,  [00:12:12] Kelly: I saw my parents struggle. They're working class people. You know, I got into an industry that was on its, you know, downslide when I, I started on the radio in you know, the early nineties, you know, probably right after it started to slide down and, you know, there've been multiple layoffs and, you know, voice tracking and automation and, you know, I survived, but I think one of the reasons I survived was I was willing to work really hard for not a whole lot of compensation. [00:12:40] Jason: Sure.  [00:12:40] Kelly: You know, as people were let go and reductions in force, I was given more duties, but not more money.  [00:12:47] Jason: Sure.  [00:12:48] Kelly: And, you know, you do that long enough, you start getting the message that, oh, well, your time really isn't worth a whole heck of a lot.  [00:12:54] Jason: Yeah.  [00:12:55] Kelly: Yeah.  [00:12:56] Jason: Who decides what your time's worth?  [00:12:57] Kelly: I do.  [00:12:58] Jason: Yeah. I do. [00:12:59] Yes.  [00:12:59] Kelly: I do.  [00:13:00] Yeah!  [00:13:01] And, you know, that's... [00:13:02] you do now. Yes.  [00:13:03] Jason: How has that shifted for you then? What's your perception of your time and the value of it? of your time now?  [00:13:09] Kelly: My perception of my time is, you know, first of all, I don't need to be tied to the Henry Ford 40 hour work week or even the 50-60-70-80 hour work week that I hear people say you "should" do when you're running a business because, you know, it's impractical. [00:13:24] I have a daughter. She's a teenager. She's just started high school this year. She's a field hockey athlete and now she wants to be on the swim team and she's got needs. Mhm. Right? I've got a husband who does not have a cushy job I can fall back on while I do my entrepreneurial thing.  [00:13:40] Jason: Right. Right. [00:13:41] Kelly: He's also an entrepreneur. [00:13:43] We are living off self employment income. So it is a constant, you know, point of stress. So, you know, I need to find out my key productivity time, and that's when I work. And sometimes I get four or five hours a day, and that's it, of key productivity time. But then I find myself, you know, when I'm walking the dog, having all these great ideas. [00:14:06] You know, I do things like I listen to your podcast you know, some great audio books that have been recommended to me. I devoured The One Thing by Gary Keller, the Profit First book. And I'm starting to implement these ideas. And it's just sort of like they're ladder steps.  [00:14:23] Jason: So basically, little by little, you've been investing in yourself by leveraging reading, getting coaching, doing this stuff. [00:14:31] And that's translated into you valuing yourself a little bit more.  [00:14:35] Yeah.  [00:14:35] Awesome.  [00:14:36] Kelly: Absolutely. And I've learned to turn things over, like maintenance, you know, I hired one of the vendors that you recommended, Vendoroo and they're, you know, the tenants still text me with maintenance issues. [00:14:47] Sure. And I text back, "put it in the portal." Right. "If you can't put it in the portal, call this number and they'll teach you how to put it in the portal."  [00:14:55] Jason: But yeah, probably less willing to take phone calls than you were before.  [00:14:58] Kelly: Yeah, I've never really taken phone calls.  [00:15:00] Jason: That's good, that's good. [00:15:02] Kelly: Thanks me. Get it all in writing.  [00:15:04] Jason: So you went through our whole rapid revamp process as well, like with the branding and like getting everything kind of dialed in, pricing. You've implemented a lot of things. And so, has that impacted your confidence level as well?  [00:15:20] Kelly: Oh, absolutely. I really feel like, you know, I'm marketing a real brand now with Crimson Cape. [00:15:25] Jason: Yeah. What, what was it before that?  [00:15:26] Kelly: GPGH Management Company.  [00:15:29] Jason: Oh, the acronym.  [00:15:30] Kelly: Yep. Good People, Good Homes.  [00:15:32] Jason: Yeah.  [00:15:32] Kelly: You know, just to take off of that and, you know, everything was GPGH. My husband was GPGH Realty.  [00:15:38] Jason: It sounds like some sort of drug or something. What do you take in GPGH? [00:15:42] Kelly: Well, it's the right market. [00:15:44] Jason: Okay. Well, then there's that GLP 1 joke too that you could put in there. GLP 1. Yeah. But my husband actually reprinted his real estate company because of, you know, he was inspired by what I did.  [00:15:54] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. What's his brand?  [00:15:56] Kelly: He's Gorilla Real Estate. That's the little stuffed gorilla you saw on the way in. [00:16:00] Jason: Okay, yeah. Yeah, and they're different, which is nice. They're not like, you know, kind of mixed together.  [00:16:06] Kelly: Right, right. And I don't want, you know, people to really associate us together, even though we do share an office.  [00:16:11] Jason: Yeah.  [00:16:12] For now.  [00:16:13] So you've gone through the branding, your pricing is different than anyone else in the market. [00:16:19] Kelly: Yeah. It's higher than anyone else in the market too. And that keeps a lot of the riffraff away.  [00:16:24] Jason: Yeah. It's better to be at the top than to be competing with the garbage at the bottom. For sure. Yeah. Especially in a difficult or lower end market. Yeah. Yeah. So awesome. What other changes?  [00:16:36] Sarah: I think, well, how many, we've gone through the rapid revamp a couple of times, so she's done the mindset piece a few times, and I think every time you go through it, you kind of get, like, an extra layer out of it, like almost like the next, like we're stacking like, levels and levels and levels of different like mindset tips and tricks, and then the perception piece, which once we're done with the little pieces on the website, we can get that launched for you. [00:17:04] I think that will make a huge difference. And recently. I mean, for the whole entirety of the time that you were in our program, you had always said "there is no way I can add more units. There is no way I can do more work. There is no way I can even focus on growth." And you are now adding new doors. [00:17:24] Kelly: Yep, I added three last week. I added another two Sunday night from a current client. I didn't know she had another double block. You know how I got those doors? She called me from you know, her poor husband is at the Cleveland Clinic. So she called me from Cleveland and she's like "I got a no heat call from this one building that you're not managing And I can't deal with it. Can you please take these units?"  [00:17:47] Jason: Nice.  [00:17:48] Kelly: So I just got two more doors.  [00:17:49] Jason: Okay.  [00:17:50] Kelly: And I'm hopefully closing on another five by the end of the week.  [00:17:53] Yes! [00:17:55] Jason: So doors are just starting to flow and you're able to dedicate time now towards growth which before you're kind of  [00:18:01] Kelly: yeah  [00:18:01] Jason: Chicken with head cut off running around and dealing with stuff. [00:18:04] Kelly: It's going to get a little iffy again now that I've added these doors, you know, okay. Now I have to onboard all these tenants. And there's a couple that come with the vacant units that they want me to rent in January?  [00:18:16] Jason: Yeah.  [00:18:17] Sarah: The best time of year here.  [00:18:21] Jason: Right. Lots of activity.  [00:18:23] Sarah: Speaking of vacant units, You have none now in the portfolio that you're Managing? [00:18:28] My current portfolio, I filled them all.  [00:18:31] Yeah, and how many did you have? Because I feel like all throughout the year I was getting updates and it was like 20 something and down a little bit, down a little bit, and now you're at zero.  [00:18:41] Kelly: Yeah, I filled I think 17 units over the course of the last year. [00:18:45] Amazing.  [00:18:46] 10 of them were filled between September and now.  [00:18:50] Jason: Nice. Wow.  [00:18:50] Kelly: And I've got a few that are coming up. I've got, you know, two of my tenants are moving into senior housing. So, you know, that means I'm probably going to have to redo their apartments because they've been living there since like 1965 or whatever. [00:19:04] I'm sure they're going to need to be some updates.  [00:19:07] Jason: So in getting this business started, if you hadn't heard about DoorGrow, or say, DoorGrow didn't exist. Where would you be you think right now?  [00:19:15] Kelly: Oh my gosh.  [00:19:16] Jason: What'd be going on?  [00:19:17] Kelly: I'm not sure I'd still be doing it.  [00:19:19] Jason: You think you would have quit?  [00:19:20] Kelly: With this client that I took on from the beginning, if I didn't know any better, I would think this is what property management is. [00:19:27] Jason: And you'd be like, yeah, right, so talking with us saying you should probably fire this client was probably enough to go, "okay, this may not be everybody."  [00:19:35] Kelly: Right. [00:19:36] Jason: Okay. [00:19:36] Kelly: Right, right. And you know, and you also helped me work with this client. So he's still my client, and he could be a very good client now that his buildings are cash flowing. But that remains to be seen because I got a little pushback on a repair last night that I wasn't real happy with, but we'll see. [00:19:53] Jason: You're going to set some strong boundaries with this guy.  [00:19:56] Kelly: I might have to punch him in the face a third time.  [00:19:58] Jason: Metaphorically. Right, right. Metaphorically, we're not advocating violence. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. All right. Well anything else that we should chat about or cover? I mean, it's really been, like I said at the beginning, it's been inspiring and exciting to see you grow. [00:20:13] We're really excited to see where you take this and we've seen just it and that's why we do what we do. It's great to see clients just grow like you've come so far. Your whole energy is just different. Just how you are from when we saw you at DoorGrow live and you're like, well, what's your time worth? [00:20:29] And you're, you've spouted off, "well, not very much," you know, or whatever you've come a long way. And I'm really excited to see where you go with this because this could be a really great residual income business. I think absolutely it will overshadow what you're making off your rental properties, but then it also feed you some more real estate deals in the future. [00:20:47] For sure as you, as you work this. And so, yeah, I think it'll be interesting. And how does the, the king of Gorilla Real Estate feel about everything that you're doing?  [00:20:56] Kelly: Oh, he's incredibly supportive. Yeah. I think he misses when I used to just, you know, clean up his bookkeeping for him. We now have to hire someone to do that. [00:21:05] Jason: Mm-hmm. Yes. Those wealthy problems. Yeah.  [00:21:07] Kelly: And yeah, and that's another mindset thing I need to get over. And you cover this in the rapid revamp when you're talking about, you know, the three types of clients you got, your, your normals, which you're, you're aiming for.  [00:21:18] Jason: Yeah.  [00:21:18] Kelly: But then you've got, you know, your cheapos and your premiums. [00:21:21] Sure.  [00:21:21] Jason: Yeah.  [00:21:21] Kelly: And and, and one of the things you talked about, the cheapos is. Are you a cheapo?  [00:21:27] Jason: Oh. Yeah.  [00:21:27] Kelly: And I realize that, yeah, I kind of am a cheapo.  [00:21:30] Jason: You get what you attract. Huh. And so, yeah, we're blind, we have a blind spot towards which category we are showing up as, and so stretching yourself to not be a cheapo. [00:21:41] Kelly: I grew up with nothing. You know, I grew up with nothing, so, yeah, that's why I'm a cheapo.  [00:21:47] Sarah: Yeah. And I get it, because I too was in that mindset, especially when I lived here.  [00:21:52] This area is in that mindset. [00:21:54] Yes, the whole area is very, and when you find someone who kind of breaks through that bubble, It's odd here, right? [00:22:03] And it's different. And it's weird. And it's like, what are they doing? What is this all about? This is just weird. Like, why are you not, you know, normal like us? And when that was something that I had struggled with for a very, very long time, too, because back when I had lived here, I thought, "okay, well, I want to make more money. And like, I need to make more money. And the only way I can do that is I can either work more hours and maybe get some overtime or maybe I can find a job that's going to pay me more and or ask for a raise, or and this is my go to strategy, was let's just work two jobs, three jobs, four jobs." I was working four jobs at a time. [00:22:44] I was working seven days a week and I did that for years and years and years just because, well, this job I maxed out on and I can't get any more money out of here, but I need more money, so, oh, let me just add on another job. Yeah, so I understand that completely and it was just, it was with time that that started to just crack and shift a little bit. [00:23:02] Jason: Kind of the trap of time for dollars. As if that's the only way.  [00:23:07] Sarah: Absolutely. Absolutely.  [00:23:09] Jason: So yeah, so being exposed just to other people that are not of that mindset probably is cracks that glass ceiling you spoke of a little bit before maybe.  [00:23:19] Kelly: Right. Yeah. And what I'm noticing is that I'm attracting people, local people, that have a similar mindset and they exist. [00:23:28] You know, there's a lot of entrepreneurs in this area. Chris Jones started Pepper Jam, and he decided to keep his company here.  [00:23:34] Sarah: Oh, wow.  [00:23:34] Kelly: Yeah, I mean, there's, there's a few. Tech company, you might have heard of them. But yeah, there's, there's a few.  [00:23:39] Jason: So, you are no longer a cheapo.  [00:23:42] Kelly: No. I, well, I'm working on it. [00:23:45] I'm working on it. I catch myself.  [00:23:46] Jason: You say... [00:23:47] Kelly: I am no longer a cheapo.  [00:23:49] Jason: I am more normal.  [00:23:51] Kelly: I am more normal.  [00:23:52] Jason: Graduating towards premium.  [00:23:53] Kelly: And I'm graduating towards premium.  [00:23:55] Jason: It's good to be premium. We get to decide this, right? We get to decide this. [00:24:00] And so as you stretch yourself into more premium experience and recognizing, like, money is not the painful thing to be focused on, there's, and there's better things to be focused on that are more valuable and more important, like your time. And as you put a greater and greater premium on your time, you shift out of that currency of cash being the, you know, the God of your life controlling you and then you can start to be grateful. [00:24:26] And I think one of the key things for everybody listening is when we start to celebrate all of the things that we used to complain about related to money, I think this is how we shift out of that poverty mindset is, oh, we got to pay this bill. Thank you God that I have lights and power that I'm able to afford to do this. [00:24:44] Or thank you that I'm able to do this. And when we start to be grateful instead of projecting pain every time we see or hear money, And we start to project gratitude, then we start to attract more money. Like we start to be open to that. And as we shift into normal, yeah, we attract more normals. As we shift into premium, we attract more premium clients. [00:25:05] And they recognize you. It's like, there's a knowing between you and them, like, yeah, this is how it works. You come to us and we take care of everything and we take care of you and you get a premium service and product and they're like, "yeah, that's what I want." because premium buyers, when they see people that are cheapos. [00:25:20] They can like kind of smell it on you, right? So then they're like, "I don't want to work with this person. They're not going to take care of my property the way that I would want or do things or take care of me the way that I want." And so investing in ourselves. Sometimes for me, one of my coaches said, "go get a massage, you know, go do things to invest or take care of yourself to where you feel like..." you know, anything where we say, I think the poverty mindset is we hear this voice that says, " I don't need that nicer car. You don't need to go get a massage. Why do you need that?" Normal and premium is about shifting beyond need, right? Need is scarcity, need is starving, and need is survival, and so, and then what happens is we have to create drama or problems in our life in order to justify taking time off, so we have to get sick, or we have to justify it. [00:26:09] Doing something and so when we shift out of that then we shift into a healthier state where we can decide I am going to take a vacation or I am going to take time off. I'm going to go to DoorGrow live. You should all go to DoorGrow live, so.  [00:26:20] Sarah: I highly recommend coming up in May!  [00:26:23] Jason: It's coming up in May. Go to doorgrowlive.Com. So, all right anything else we should touch on?  [00:26:28] Sarah: One thing and I don't know if I've ever said this on the coach a call where you've been on but for me, it was actually Roya Mattis. She, at the time, was in Mary Kay like, and I was in cosmetic sales for Mary Kay, and It was very early in my Mary Kay career and I was kind of learning how to be entrepreneur ish, right? [00:26:53] Like, "Oh, I can write these things off and I can do things differently" and, "Oh, this is an expense, but it's a good expense." And it was a lot of new things for me. And one of the things that she had said is and I'll never forget because it just stuck with me and I went, "Oh, okay." Yeah, I need to stop thinking like that right now. [00:27:11] Is " come tax time, there are people who can't wait for tax time because they're waiting. They're depending on that refund and they're like, 'Oh, thank God I get this refund.' Right?" [00:27:21] A lot of rent gets caught up in it. [00:27:23] It sure does. Yeah. Funny. All of a sudden they have money. So. Once you start really making money, though, you don't get refunds anymore. [00:27:33] What ends up happening is you pay money. And not only do you pay money into it, but you now are, like, quarterly paying money. But you don't have to do that if you're, like, barely scraping by, if you're not making money. So, what she said to me is, " when you're, like, rich and you're making money You're excited to pay this money because you're making so much money that now, not only are not going to get a refund, but you don't, you don't worry about the refund, you're making money and now you're paying the taxes and you are going to hit a point where you want to be paying taxes more often than just once a year because that means you've reached a certain level and now you're making a certain amount of money and your goal at that point is then going to be, 'well, how can I increase this?'" [00:28:24] And that for me, it just stuck in my head forever. And I went, "Oh. Oh, geez. I didn't even realize that." And at that time I was, I was. Like, "well, I'm going to get a couple thousand dollars back, like on my tax refund." I haven't gotten a refund in years. And it's true though. It's just a different way of thinking about things. [00:28:40] It's like, well, you know, if you make this tiny little bit of money and then I can get, you know, a couple thousand dollars back at the end of the year, or I can make a whole lot more money. And then, yes, I have to make some quarterly tax payments. Man, I'd rather make a lot more money and I'll just give the government some of it. [00:28:54] And then what you have to do is just figure out how can we reduce that as much as possible.  [00:28:59] Jason: I would love to see taxes just be reduced dramatically. So, we'll see.  [00:29:04] Kelly: But, who knows what they're going to do.  [00:29:05] Jason: I don't get super excited about paying taxes, but I do get excited. I would rather, like, see more income on my tax return. [00:29:13] You know taxes every time so.  [00:29:14] Sarah: Would you rather make the big amount of money so that you have to pay the taxes in or would you make a really small amount of money so that you get a refund?  [00:29:22] Kelly: Yeah, just a really good accountant that can help you zig when the government zags  [00:29:26] Sarah: So that that was something that she said to me and I went oh, okay, that is a very different way of thinking about it. [00:29:33] And it just, just stuck with me.  [00:29:35] Jason: Yeah. Always looking through the lens of 'why is this positive?' it's a healthy mindset for sure. Yeah. Why are taxes positive? All right. Everybody listening is like, "they're not."  [00:29:45] Sarah: I know. Right. Cool. My brother wants a shout out. So shout out to Jason.  [00:29:50] Jason: What's up, Jason? [00:29:51] Sarah: He's like, "you never shout me out!" Here, here you are. The three of us are waving to you now. So, what's up, Jason?  [00:29:58] Jason: No, he's got the same name as me. Everybody's like, what's that all about?  [00:30:01] He's dating a Sarah.  [00:30:03] Kelly: Oh!  [00:30:04] Jason: Which is funny. And you have a stepsister, that's Sarah, so he's got two, three Sarahs in his life right now. [00:30:13] Three Sarahs, two Jasons, and a partridge in a pear tree. All right. Cool. Well, Kelly, it's been great coming to hang out in your office and to meet you in person like here in Pennsylvania. Thanks for hosting the DoorGrow show and having us hang out with you and we're excited to see where you go and how you progress in the program and all the things you're going to do as you add doors. [00:30:36] And I think the future is really bright for Crimson Property Management, Crimson Cape. Hey, I missed the Cape. It's like superhero stuff here. Yes. I am. I love it. All right. And that's it. So if you are tuning in, make sure to check us out at DoorGrow. com. And if you are wanting to grow your property management business, or you are getting burnt out on it, or you are one of the many sucky property management companies that exist, you don't have to be. [00:31:04] It could be good. It could be better. Then reach out to us. We would love to help you scale and grow your business. We help people from startup all the way to breaking the thousand door barrier. Whatever your goal is reach out to us. Check us out at DoorGrow. com. Bye everyone.  [00:31:18] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:31:45] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. 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Al and Kelly talk about Fields of Mistria Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:05:39: What Have We Been Up To 00:13:12: November Game Releases 00:15:25: Stardew Concert 00:27:34: Game News 00:40:41: New Games 00:51:38: Fields Of Mistria Links Stardew Valley Symphony of Seasons Sun Haven UK/Switzerland/NZ Switch Release Everdream Valley “Family Time” DLC Snacko “Builders Dream” Update Spiritea “Phantom Friends” Update Farlands 0.3 Update Ratopia Dreamland Farm Ooze Keeper Contact Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Al: Hello farmers, and welcome to another episode of the harvest season. My name is Al, (0:00:36) Kelly: And my name is Kelly. (0:00:37) Al: and we’re here today to talk about cartridge core games. (0:00:43) Al: Welcome back Kelly, how are you doing? (0:00:46) Kelly: Pretty good. Enjoying the long weekend. It’s been nice. (0:00:49) Kelly: It’s nice to be back, too. How have you been? (0:00:51) Al: Yes, yes, good, good, good. (0:00:54) Al: I’m, yeah, doing all right. Just, you know, I’m cramming in as many farming games as possible (0:00:58) Al: before the end of the year. (0:01:00) Al: My game of the year episode is as accurate as possible. (0:01:04) Al: So busy. (0:01:06) Kelly: - Good dedication, really dedicated. (0:01:08) Al: Yeah, I mean, I feel like I probably could have played half of these in the first half of the year, but, you know, procrastination. (0:01:13) Kelly: But yeah, where’s the fun without that? (0:01:18) Al: Yeah, this is when the ADHD kicks in and goes, “Oh, deadline, great!” (0:01:22) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, no, literally. (0:01:25) Kelly: Do you have any things I did in like the 10 minutes (0:01:27) Kelly: before I sat down to record this? (0:01:29) Kelly: I think I ran through like five chores, just, why? (0:01:30) Al: Yeah, classic. Well, this is also Kelly’s 10th episode on the podcast. (0:01:40) Kelly: Whoo, I can’t believe it’s been 10. When you said that, I was so shocked. (0:01:40) Al: It’s wild. Yeah, yeah. I was surprised as well. I didn’t expect it to be that many because (0:01:52) Al: I guess it’s just been over a long time. Your first episode was in 2021. So we did Spirit (0:01:56) Al: and then the Spiritfare DLC, and then you and Kev did. (0:02:00) Al: Cult of the Lamb, and then you and Bev and Maddie did Potion Permit, (0:02:05) Al: and then we did Fishing Break, you and Kev did Graveyard Keeper, and then we did Pumpkin Panic, (0:02:11) Al: an episode called “What is Stardew still missing?” which I don’t even remember doing, (0:02:15) Al: but apparently we did. Yeah, sure. (0:02:16) Kelly: I remember that. (0:02:17) Kelly: That’s when it came out for the PC. (0:02:23) Al: I need to see how many episodes we’ve done on Stardew, and then the Dave the Diver story episode. (0:02:29) Kelly: Oh, yes. (0:02:30) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:02:31) Al: And then this will be your 10th one, wild, there you go. (0:02:34) Kelly: So many fishing– (0:02:35) Kelly: farming games, not fishing games. (0:02:37) Kelly: Also fishing games. (0:02:38) Al: Well, yeah, one of them was specifically a fishing game. (0:02:41) Kelly: Yeah. (0:02:42) Al: And the others almost all have fishing in them. (0:02:44) Al: Does Dave the Diver count as fishing? (0:02:46) Kelly: I wanna say yes, but I feel like no, because realistically to me it’s the mechanic of fishing. (0:02:55) Al: Well, that’s why that’s why I’m questioning it. (0:02:58) Kelly: Like I think the fishing is so different. (0:02:58) Al: But like, there’s a lot. (0:03:02) Kelly: Would you count scuba diving and animal crossing as fishing? No, that’s like it. (0:03:07) Al: You’re not catching fish when you’re scuba diving, though. (0:03:08) Kelly: Oh, you’re not? Oh, the dive thing? No. (0:03:10) Al: No. (0:03:12) Al: No, you only catch fish with a fishing rod in Animal Crossing. (0:03:16) Al: You, there are, it’s quite, yeah, yeah. (0:03:16) Kelly: Is it just like clams? (0:03:18) Al: I think maybe as far as like a crab, but I don’t think there’s any fish. (0:03:23) Kelly: Okay. No, I would not count David Diver as a fishing game, honestly. (0:03:28) Al: Interesting. OK, that’s this is our controversy of the episode. (0:03:33) Al: Listeners, tell us, do you think Dave the Diver is a fishing episode or not? (0:03:40) Al: If you make me decide, I would say yes, it is a fishing game (0:03:44) Al: because I think that fishing would be catching fish. (0:03:48) Al: I don’t think you specifically have to use a fishing rod or a fishing net (0:03:52) Al: to count as fishing. (0:03:54) Kelly: I see your point. I think I’m going more off of the vibes of every other mini fishing game. (0:03:58) Al: Yeah. (0:04:01) Kelly: Because definition-wise, you’re correct. It is a fishing game. What else am I doing, (0:04:05) Kelly: if not fishing? But I wouldn’t count it with the fishing games. It almost is kind of like (0:04:06) Al: Yeah. I mean, I would say it’s a– Sure. Okay. I would say it is a fishing game, (0:04:11) Kelly: that little controversy they had with the indie game thing. Okay, okay. (0:04:18) Al: but not a cottagecore game, which is ironic because it’s a cottagecore podcast. And I feel (0:04:24) Al: like we had the discussion about whether it was cottagecore or not, multiple times throughout the (0:04:27) Al: summer. Anyway, five minutes discussion on the Diver who expected that. This episode, we are (0:04:34) Al: finally going to talk about Fields of (0:04:36) Al: Mistria. I realised that, apparently, Spotify has the (0:04:40) Al: ability to leave comments and I went on and noticed there’s a (0:04:43) Al: person on Spotify that has just been commenting regularly. Are (0:04:46) Al: you going to cover Fields of Mistria? So, yes, here we are (0:04:51) Al: covering Fields of Mistria. Shout out to you, our single (0:04:53) Kelly: For that one Spotify– (0:04:54) Al: commenter. I can’t even remember the name. Yeah, episodes as (0:05:01) Kelly: I didn’t know you could comment on Spotify stuff, either. (0:05:07) Al: Yeah, so there’s Jack. There we go. Jack, you’re the one who’s (0:05:12) Al: commented multiple times asking for Fields of Mistria. As (0:05:15) Kelly: Hey, Jack. I hope you enjoy this episode. (0:05:16) Al: recently as nine days ago. Yeah, I mean, we had decided to do (0:05:19) Kelly: This is personally for you, Jack. (0:05:25) Al: this before I even looked at Spotify. But yeah, sure. So (0:05:30) Al: we’re going to talk about Fields of Mistria. Before that, we (0:05:32) Al: We have some news. (0:05:36) Al: A bunch of new games and a bunch of updates. (0:05:39) Al: First of all, Kelly, what have you been up to? (0:05:42) Kelly: I have been playing a lot of Rimworld again, because I think it’s a (0:05:49) Kelly: like, I don’t know what it is, Stardew is like a march game for me. And I think Rimworld is a (0:05:57) Kelly: late fall game for me. So I am back to Rimworld, which is not cottagecore, but it is a lot of (0:06:01) Al: Okay. (0:06:04) Kelly: farming. I mean, I guess technically, you could play cottagecore style, because they do have like, (0:06:10) Kelly: No violence mode, which I have (0:06:12) Kelly: played because I just want to like build. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no. And then I’ve also (0:06:14) Al: yeah it’s a management game though isn’t it management style game yeah yeah I’m (0:06:18) Al: not playing it then (0:06:21) Kelly: been playing web fishing, which is really cute and fun and like, very simple, but like the core (0:06:27) Kelly: mechanic of fishing that I just enjoy in every farming game without like the deadline of having (0:06:33) Al: So. (0:06:35) Kelly: having to go to bed at night. (0:06:36) Al: So I have a question about that. (0:06:39) Al: I have been interested in this, but not enough to play it. (0:06:43) Al: But what do you do you interact with the chat room aspect of? (0:06:50) Kelly: You can play alone, or you can join a random lobby, or you can play with your friends. (0:06:55) Al: And what have you been doing? (0:06:56) Kelly: I have been either playing alone or playing with friends. I’m not really a big like, go into random people’s lobbies. (0:07:01) Al: OK, but you have you have done it with friends. (0:07:04) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:07:05) Al: What does that actually like? (0:07:08) Al: What is actually like? Is it audio? (0:07:10) Al: Is it text? It’s text. (0:07:10) Kelly: No, it’s text. It’s text. And then you kind of get the, like, Animal Crossing sounds as you hit send. It, like, does that. (0:07:20) Kelly: On top of your little chat and it pops up above your head and like, you also have like a little chat message bar so you could like see what you’ve been talking about. (0:07:29) Al: Okay. Okay. Okay. Because I hadn’t I know I looked through the screenshots and I hadn’t seen anything that actually showed the chat room aspect of it. It was all just like, you know, pictures of the fishing. (0:07:37) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it’s, it’s like a cute little aspect. I like that. I think it’s good (0:07:48) Kelly: that it’s like text. But very, very cute little game. Very cute. I just love fishing games. (0:07:49) Al: Yeah, yeah for sure (0:07:57) Kelly: I’m not going to lie. What have you been up to? (0:07:58) Al: Fair enough. (0:08:04) Al: I have obviously been playing Fields of Mistria quite a bit. (0:08:09) Al: We’ll talk about that when we come to it. (0:08:10) Al: I’ve also been keeping going with Marvel (0:08:13) Al: Snap and Pokemon Pocket. (0:08:16) Kelly: Oh, that’s the TCG one, right? (0:08:18) Kelly: I’ve been playing that. (0:08:19) Al: Yes, yes. (0:08:21) Kelly: I keep forgetting to open my pack, so– (0:08:24) Al: Do you not just open it when you get the notification, no? (0:08:26) Kelly: I don’t have notifications for things. (0:08:29) Al: OK, right, OK, so I turn off a lot of notifications, right? (0:08:34) Al: But, right, if you forget things, which. (0:08:39) Kelly: Yeah, but I’m just going to swipe the notification away. (0:08:40) Al: Yeah. (0:08:42) Al: No, you tap on it and then you open the app, open the gate, open the thing, right? (0:08:46) Al: You just do it then, you do it there and then it’s so fast. (0:08:46) Kelly: No, I’m not gonna do that. (0:08:49) Al: This is so this one, but this is the beauty of this game is it’s so fast. (0:08:53) Al: It’s like you open it and you press it and you get your five cards, you get your (0:08:53) Kelly: It is, that is nice. (0:08:56) Al: Dopamine hit, you swipe the app away the next- (0:08:58) Al: and the notification comes up, you do exactly the same thing. (0:09:00) Kelly: Al, listen. You’re right. I’m not going to try to fight you on this because you are 100% right. (0:09:02) Al: Ten seconds. (0:09:08) Kelly: However, many times I open the app and a message pops up that says, “You didn’t finish opening your card pack!” (0:09:16) Al: did stop doing that then. Yeah, I do. I do that. Yeah, I have to say, yeah, that is a bit of a (0:09:18) Kelly: So that is– [Laughter] (0:09:21) Al: problem. I don’t know why this game is so obsessed with that. It’s like you open up, you open a pack (0:09:26) Al: and you see it and then you write, close the app. And it’s like, I’ve seen my cards. I saw my cards, (0:09:28) Kelly: Mm-hmm because I forgot to like swipe it up. Yeah (0:09:32) Al: right? Don’t tell me I didn’t finish just because I haven’t gone and seen the 15 million animations (0:09:37) Kelly: Yeah, exactly. (0:09:37) Al: after that. It’s the same because it’s the same thing with, uh, with the battles, especially the (0:09:41) Al: solo battles is bizarre, right? Because it’s like, if you, you know, (0:09:46) Al: you do a battle and then you get annoyed because you lose. So you close, (0:09:49) Al: you just swipe the app away in anger. It’s like a really satisfying thing to do. (0:09:53) Al: And then you open it next time and it’s like, oh, did, you know, you didn’t finish this battle. (0:09:57) Al: I’m like, I did. I lost because I didn’t go through this stuff. Don’t make me relive this. (0:09:58) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, I actually I haven’t battled yet, but I completely understand. (0:10:01) Al: Why are you making me relive this? Go away. (0:10:10) Kelly: Yeah, but I do like the aspect of the whole idea that it is a two second app where you just open it open your card pack and then close it again. (0:10:18) Al: Perfect. That’s fair. That’s fair. But the problem is you can (0:10:18) Kelly: Like, I just want it for the cards I don’t want to really battle. (0:10:25) Al: get more cards by battling. Oh, yes. Absolutely. I don’t I (0:10:26) Kelly: Is it better than Pokemon Go? (0:10:28) Kelly: I’m not sure. (0:10:30) Kelly: Okay. (0:10:32) Kelly: Maybe I’ll try it, maybe I’ll try it. (0:10:34) Kelly: We’ll see. I gotta get more cards first. (0:10:36) Kelly: Yeah. (0:10:37) Al: don’t do PvP battles very much because like, you know, people (0:10:41) Al: suck. But I do there’s a lot of solo battles in the game. And (0:10:45) Al: know, there’s a new solo battle event going on right now. (0:10:48) Al: now that has unique cards for winning things. So yeah, against the computer. (0:10:51) Kelly: Oh, you can just play it yourself. (0:10:53) Kelly: Okay, okay, I didn’t I didn’t even look at that. (0:10:56) Al: The best bit is you can also tell the game to play for you. So you can have the computer (0:11:02) Al: playing against the computer. Yes, but what I do is when I’m sitting at my desk and I want just (0:11:04) Kelly: What? Kinda lazy? (laughs) (0:11:10) Al: a couple of battles and I don’t care about it because I’ve already beaten these battles, (0:11:14) Al: I just want to beat them more for more rewards (0:11:16) Al: Then I just have it sit (0:11:18) Al: In here I like just down on my phone (0:11:22) Al: Stand it’s just sitting there and it’s just doing the battles and every so often (0:11:27) Al: I look over it and see if I’ve won or lost and then I start again (0:11:30) Kelly: that is nice. I agree. That is a nice feature. Oh, yeah, I should go check mine. I do really (0:11:34) Al: Speaking of which I just got a notification that I’ve got packs. Let’s see. I’ve already got that already got that already got that (0:11:39) Al: Already got that no new cards great (0:11:43) Kelly: like looking at the card art, though. I think that’s the most fun of it. (0:11:46) Al: I’m just in an (0:11:48) Al: unfortunate position right now where I have most of the cards so most days I’m getting nothing (0:11:52) Kelly: Hmm. I only started like a week ago, I think. Also, I’ve noticed I’m very biased. I like almost (0:11:59) Kelly: never opened a Charizard pack. I know, I know. But I don’t want to. I know. I’m just, I have my own problem. (0:12:00) Al: Yeah, some of the cards are specific to that pack. (0:12:09) Al: I don’t know what to tell you. (0:12:15) Al: Anyway, so yeah, Pocket and Snap, I am at 98 on Snap now, so hopefully I’ll get to 100 by (0:12:22) Al: the end of Tuesday. We’ll see. And I’ve also started playing, speaking of playing games (0:12:31) Al: until the Game of the Year episode. I’ve been playing Luma Island as well, so yeah. (0:12:38) Al: I think it’s doing some interesting new things that I may or may not talk about in a week, and (0:12:45) Kelly: - Okay. (0:12:48) Al: I think I appreciate what it is doing, but I don’t know if it’s for me. (0:12:56) Al: But I’ve only put in like 15 hours into it so far, so. (0:13:00) Al: I’m gonna need more time to make that, isn’t it? (0:13:02) Kelly: I think that that sounds like it’ll be fun to see where it goes at least, (0:13:06) Al: Yeah. (0:13:07) Kelly: you know, and sometimes even if the mechanics aren’t for you, (0:13:09) Kelly: it’s like nice just to see people trying. (0:13:11) Al: Oh, for sure, for sure. (0:13:14) Al: All right, that’s what we’ve been up to. (0:13:18) Al: Next is our monthly segment of the recent releases, (0:13:22) Al: because this is only a second time doing it, but I decided that because there’s so many releases (0:13:28) Al: of games. (0:13:29) Al: And I’m always talking about the future. (0:13:30) Al: Talking about the past, I felt like people might want a monthly recap on what’s out (0:13:35) Al: in case they’ve heard of something that they’re like, “Oh, that’s something I want to play.” (0:13:40) Al: And now you can. (0:13:41) Al: So there have been four releases in November. (0:13:43) Al: I know it’s now December when you’re hearing this, but this is for November. (0:13:47) Al: So we have Farming Simulator 25. (0:13:50) Al: So if you love that Farming Simulator, there’s your new one, it’s out now. (0:13:55) Al: We also have Everhome, which I think… (0:14:01) Al: I don’t think that was previously Early Access, was it? (0:14:04) Al: No, I’m not seeing anything about Early Access, so that’s just a release now. (0:14:10) Kelly: Oh, that one looks cute. (0:14:11) Al: It does. (0:14:12) Al: It’s definitely on my list of “I want to play this,” but that list is very long. (0:14:15) Kelly: I’m going to add it to my list right now. (0:14:18) Al: And then we have Petite Island, which I’m pretty sure was in Early Access. (0:14:23) Al: So that is now 1.0. (0:14:25) Al: Is that correct? (0:14:26) Al: Oh, no. (0:14:27) Al: No, it’s not saying anything about Early Access. (0:14:28) Al: I was wrong. (0:14:30) Kelly: Honestly, with the amount of games that are in early access for forever, it’s like, (0:14:37) Kelly: who’s to remember anymore? Everything feels like it’s in early access. (0:14:42) Al: And and then Luma Island as well, which is also not in early access. (0:14:48) Al: So that’s four releases. (0:14:49) Al: None of them in early access. (0:14:51) Al: None of them have been in early access one unusual month. (0:14:54) Kelly: That is pretty crazy is it is it like I wonder if it’s like a pre-christmas thing (0:14:58) Al: Possibly, possibly. (0:14:59) Kelly: You know (0:15:00) Al: I do think a lot of I mean, a lot of games get delayed at this point. (0:15:04) Al: Like you don’t get a huge number of games coming out just now (0:15:06) Al: because they’ve either come out in October in time for, you know, (0:15:12) Al: the Christmas sale or they come out next year because they didn’t quite manage it. (0:15:18) Kelly: Mm hmm. Yeah, that. (0:15:18) Al: They don’t tend to like to come out in December or November (0:15:21) Al: because there’s too much happening. (0:15:25) Al: All right, next, we’ve got the news. (0:15:28) Al: The first news is a piece of news that I (0:15:30) Al: meant to talk about in the last episode, but I forgot (0:15:34) Al: because I didn’t write it down for some reason. (0:15:36) Al: And that is that they’ve announced a new series of stardew concerts. (0:15:40) Al: they had the previous series. (0:15:42) Al: Stargie Concerts that were called Festival of Seasons. (0:15:44) Al: The new ones are called Symphony of Seasons, and these are bigger. (0:15:49) Al: It’s a 35 piece orchestra. (0:15:52) Al: I believe the last one was under 20. (0:15:55) Al: I can’t remember exactly. (0:15:56) Al: I don’t know if it has it listed, but it was it was certainly much more intimate. (0:16:01) Al: It called it a chamber orchestra. (0:16:02) Al: Is that a specific number? (0:16:04) Al: I suspect not. (0:16:05) Al: Rona would be shouting at me if she was in the room. (0:16:06) Kelly: I have no idea. (0:16:07) Al: No, it just means just means small. (0:16:12) Al: So we may if you’ve not listened to it, me and Rona did a greenhouse episode on (0:16:18) Al: going to the previous Stargie Valley concert because Rona, my wife, is a big (0:16:23) Al: musician. She enjoys music. (0:16:26) Al: She does not play Stargie Valley. (0:16:27) Al: So it was a fun discussion to have about the music versus the the game sort of thing. (0:16:34) Al: I have successfully purchased tickets for the new concert. (0:16:37) Al: one the one that they’re doing in Scotland which (0:16:42) Al: obviously one is not very many, but we actually get one in many cases we don’t even get one. (0:16:47) Al: So I’m very happy to actually have one. (0:16:48) Kelly: Whoo! Whoo! Yeah, that is exciting. I forgot you went to the last round. (0:16:55) Al: And the Yeah, yeah. (0:16:58) Al: So that was earlier this year sometime, April or something. (0:17:04) Al: And that was in a converted church in Edinburgh. (0:17:08) Al: This new one is in 2026. (0:17:12) Al: It’s over a year away, which is just because of the time of the year that makes it sound (0:17:17) Al: even further away. (0:17:18) Al: It’s actually only like a year and two months away or something. (0:17:21) Al: I think it’s February. (0:17:22) Kelly: - Oh yeah, it’s heavy, all right. (0:17:22) Al: So it’s not that bad, but it does sound ridiculously far away. (0:17:30) Al: But they’re doing that, and this shows you how they’ve gone up a little bit. (0:17:32) Al: They’ve gone from a converted church in Edinburgh to the Royal Concert Hall in Glasgow, which (0:17:38) Al: which is, I think, three times the size. (0:17:42) Kelly: It’s, it’s, you know, you know, Stardew is big, but I think when you see it like in this kind of aspect, it’s like, wow. (0:17:48) Al: Yeah, this is their second world tour, and this one’s bigger. (0:17:52) Kelly: Yeah. (0:17:54) Kelly: The next one’s going to be stadium level concert. (0:17:58) Al: Yeah, I don’t think I would want to see stardew music in a stadium. (0:18:02) Kelly: No, I think this is much cuter. Yeah. Yeah. But no, that’s so that’s so cool. (0:18:03) Al: I feel like concert hall works best. (0:18:09) Al: So, yeah, it was funny because (0:18:11) Al: so there was a presale that if you signed up to the newsletter, you got the code. (0:18:14) Al: I signed up for that and then we got the code (0:18:17) Al: and then I forgot all about (0:18:18) Al: it. And it was like, because I had my laptop next to my work, because it was 9am on Monday. (0:18:24) Al: I had my personal laptop like next to my desk, ready to log on at nine, and then completely (0:18:29) Al: forgot. It was really unfortunate. And then I looked at the time, there was, I can’t remember (0:18:36) Al: what it was, I just randomly looked at the clock, and it was 11 o’clock and went, “Oh, (0:18:40) Al: the concert. Oh, no.” And so I went on and thankfully they still had. (0:18:49) Kelly: That’s good, especially because, like you said, you only have one night for Scotland, (0:18:53) Al: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And well, yeah. And it’s like I could go to England, but there’s only (0:18:54) Kelly: so it’s not like, “Oh, I could drive a few states over if I have to.” (0:19:01) Al: two in England and one of them is London, which is like four hour train ride or yeah. (0:19:06) Kelly: You wanna go to London? (0:19:07) Al: And who wants to go to London? And it’s like, it’s always annoying when you, cause like (0:19:11) Al: London gets the, cause I think you get like, obviously New York gets the, you know, Broadway (0:19:16) Al: musicals first cause obviously Broadway, uh, it’s kind of in the name. Um, but then they, (0:19:17) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:19:20) Al: They tend to go to London next and they take forever. (0:19:24) Al: You can always go to London for these things. (0:19:26) Al: It’s like, I don’t want to go to London, oh my word. (0:19:29) Kelly: Yeah, I don’t even want to go into the city for some of this stuff, so I feel you (0:19:34) Al: London is one of them, and Manchester is the other one. (0:19:36) Al: Manchester, despite being further north, is harder to get to than London. (0:19:41) Kelly: Oh, really? I thought I thought that would be closer to you, honestly. (0:19:44) Al: If you’re driving, it’s faster. (0:19:46) Al: But if you’re getting the train, it’s more difficult. (0:19:48) Al: It takes longer to get there. (0:19:48) Kelly: Mm. That makes sense. (0:19:50) Al: because they’ve got like a super fast train from Edinburgh to… (0:19:53) Al: London. It’s like four hours on the train which is fine but then it becomes a whole weekend thing (0:20:01) Al: rather than a night thing. Whereas this is, it starts at 7pm it’s like I can get my kids (0:20:08) Al: mostly ready for bed and then head off and then be back in for midnight. (0:20:13) Kelly: Yeah, you know, that’s nice. Yeah, that’ll be exciting. I didn’t realize it was, I mean, (0:20:18) Kelly: like you said, it’s only like a year basically away. (0:20:20) Al: Yeah, I think the American dates start in like August or something. (0:20:25) Kelly: Mm-hmm. Yeah, end of August. (0:20:26) Al: Yeah, the first dates in Seattle. (0:20:30) Kelly: I will say it’s funny. There’s no New York City date. (0:20:33) Kelly: It’s only upstate New York and New Jersey. (0:20:35) Al: Oh, that’s funny. Is that because New York City is just stupidly expensive to? (0:20:40) Kelly: That’s what I was about to say is it’s definitely because of that. (0:20:42) Al: Of all the places, of all the places in the world, it’s like you do not want to do that. (0:20:47) Kelly: Yeah. So that one makes a lot– because at first I was like, wow, there’s no New York City one. (0:20:54) Kelly: but there is a new (0:20:55) Kelly: New Jersey, which is close enough. (0:20:57) Kelly: I would go there instead of Albany. (0:21:00) Al: Yes, yeah, because, well, I don’t know where New York is, but New Jersey’s closer, I mean, (0:21:06) Al: much of New Jersey is closer to you than most of New York, right? I know, because I read (0:21:09) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, exactly. (0:21:14) Al: a lot of Ms. Marvel Comics, and she’s based in New Jersey City. (0:21:19) Kelly: Yeah, those are my sister works, actually, (0:21:21) Kelly: right across the water. (0:21:23) Kelly: It’s nice there now. (0:21:24) Kelly: They’ve been making it nicer. (0:21:24) Al: New York is right there. You’ve got New York, and then you’ve got Manhattan, and then you’ve (0:21:32) Al: got Jersey City, and then you’ve got New York. That looks… Yeah, that would… Yeah. (0:21:33) Kelly: No, yeah, literally. (0:21:38) Kelly: Oh, they put all their businesses on that side, (0:21:40) Kelly: I’m pretty sure, because they’re like tax reasons. (0:21:42) Al: Because there’s also casinos in New Jersey as well, isn’t there? (0:21:43) Kelly: You know? (0:21:46) Kelly: Mm-hm. We have them in New York now, just they’re more limited. Yeah, there was one that (0:21:49) Al: Howdy! (0:21:52) Al: I thought New York was quite strict with gambling. (0:21:55) Kelly: they were, I think when I was like in my early 20s, stuff started to change (0:22:02) Kelly: and they opened up a casino near where I lived. But I think they were, it wasn’t, you know, (0:22:08) Kelly: as open as like other states are with the gambling even inside of there. You know, (0:22:13) Kelly: like not every game I guess is allowed or stuff like that. Difference. (0:22:17) Kelly: I don’t know what gambling rules are. I just go in and I pull the lever. (0:22:23) Al: - Okay. (0:22:27) Kelly: But yeah, usually people from New York would go to Jersey to gamble because it’s better over there. (0:22:32) Al: It’s really funny, I’m just looking at the Google Maps and I knew there was weird stuff around (0:22:36) Al: exactly who owned Ellis Island and Liberty Island and I noticed that on Google Maps it has most of (0:22:44) Al: Ellis Island listed as New Jersey with like a big chunk of it including the Immigrations Museum (0:22:52) Al: listed as New York. So it’s like because you’re over the line, technically the island is within (0:22:53) Kelly: Oh, that’s funny. (0:22:58) Al: New Jersey. So most of it is New Jersey, but then there’s like an (0:23:02) Al: exclave of New York. We love border disputes. Did you know that Greenland and Canada now (0:23:04) Kelly: I forgot about that whole debacle. (0:23:13) Kelly: Who doesn’t? (0:23:20) Al: have a land border due to a solved border dispute? Yeah, so there’s an island between (0:23:23) Kelly: No, I did not (0:23:27) Al: mainland Greenland mainland Greenland between (0:23:32) Al: Greenland Greenland and like the very north of Canada. (0:23:36) Al: What is that? (0:23:37) Al: It doesn’t have a name. Nobody cares about it. (0:23:41) Al: Which is like right in the middle of the water, (0:23:44) Al: which is where they put the border between them. (0:23:47) Al: So it like crosses the island. (0:23:48) Al: So they spent decades arguing over who owned it. (0:23:52) Al: And then eventually they decided they just split it. (0:23:53) Al: So now technically it’s half and half. (0:23:55) Al: So they have a land border there. (0:23:57) Kelly: that’s cool. It’s kind of like the two little islands in the bearings straight between what (0:23:59) Al: Thank you. (0:24:02) Al: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:24:03) Kelly: are they called? Something with a D. I don’t remember. Yeah. Yeah. That one’s messed up though (0:24:06) Al: Diomede, a big Diomede and little Diomede. (0:24:10) Kelly: because like people live there and then they can’t, they got split up and now they can’t see their (0:24:11) Al: Yeah. (0:24:14) Kelly: relatives. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But you can’t cross that ice. It’s not allowed. (0:24:15) Al: Well, and it’s, and it’s essentially a land border half of the year anyway, because of the ice. (0:24:23) Al: Well, not, well, yeah, not allowed is very different from Kant. (0:24:27) Kelly: That’s true. That’s very true. (0:24:29) Al: Anyway, enough about geography. (0:24:32) Al: That’s the Stardew Valley Concert. (0:24:33) Al: Are you going to go to any of them? (0:24:34) Al: You’re going to go to the New Jersey one? (0:24:36) Kelly: Probably not, no. Yeah, probably not. (0:24:44) Kelly: It would be cool, but no. Yeah, no. I’m very excited for you. That is very cool. (0:24:46) Al: I’m excited for it. (0:24:52) Al: We don’t go to stuff very often because kids. (0:24:54) Al: So this year we went to the Stardew Concert (0:24:56) Al: and we went to Hamilton. (0:24:58) Al: Hamilton were in Edinburgh. (0:25:00) Al: And then next year, next year. (0:25:00) Kelly: Oh, nice. What is that? (0:25:02) Al: Next year, we’re going to see six. (0:25:04) Al: I think that’s what it’s called. (0:25:06) Al: So I believe it’s about Henry VIII’s wives. (0:25:08) Kelly: Oh, you know what? I think I might have heard something about this, actually. (0:25:11) Al: You’ll probably have seen music from it on TikTok. (0:25:15) Al: It’s all over the place. (0:25:15) Kelly: Yeah, that makes sense. TikTok is a great marketing ploy for that. (0:25:17) Al: So yeah, so many, so many musicals I’ve learned about that, yeah. (0:25:25) Kelly: Yeah, they’re really catchy. They get stuck in your head really well. (0:25:31) Al: Yeah, it’s a modern retelling of the lives of the six waves of Henry VIII. (0:25:36) Kelly: Okay. That’s cool. Yeah. No, yeah, yeah. Yeah, why not? And that’s fun. And now that you (0:25:38) Al: All I know is the music’s catchy, and Rona wants to see it, and I was like, yeah, let’s (0:25:45) Al: go see it, because I like the music. (0:25:49) Kelly: can, like, now that the kids are a little older and can actually get out a little bit (0:25:53) Kelly: more. It’s like, why not? (0:25:54) Al: So that’s our one for next year. (0:25:56) Al: And then we’ve got the Stardew concert the year after. (0:26:01) Al: Maybe I’ll see Wicked in 2026. (0:26:04) Kelly: Oh, yes, I want that to come out. I want them to release that on the streaming so that I don’t have to go into the theater for it. (0:26:10) Al: So here’s an interesting thing for you, apparently you can go into the New York Public Library (0:26:20) Al: and watch it. (0:26:20) Kelly: Oh, but I didn’t have to go to Manhattan. (0:26:21) Al: No, I know, I know, right? (0:26:26) Al: But you can, at least. (0:26:27) Al: I can’t. (0:26:28) Kelly: Yes. Okay. Okay. Okay. That’s fair. That’s fair. That’s fair. (0:26:29) Al: Yes, it would be work, but less work than going to the theatre. (0:26:30) Kelly: It would be a trek to get there and then have to sit there and watch it. (0:26:38) Kelly: Yes. I’ve heard it’s a lot of sing-alongs in the theaters, (0:26:42) Al: Goodness, thankfully, I live in a very, a place where it is unacceptable to sing. (0:26:44) Kelly: which I’m happy for those theater kids, but you know, I don’t, I’m not a theater. (0:26:54) Al: So when we went to see the film, there were not people singing. (0:26:59) Kelly: I wish. (0:27:00) Al: This is what is unusual. (0:27:01) Kelly: My mom, actually. (chuckles) (0:27:02) Al: This is what is unusual is actually the people clapped at the end of it. (0:27:06) Al: I have never had people clap at the end of the film. (0:27:07) Kelly: Oh, it’s like clapping when a flight lands. (0:27:11) Kelly: I hate both of those. (0:27:12) Kelly: I hate those kind of people. (chuckles) (0:27:12) Al: There is one situation where clapping when a flight lands is acceptable, (0:27:16) Kelly: Yes, yes. (0:27:16) Al: and that is when you thought you were going to die. (0:27:18) Kelly: Yeah. (chuckles) (0:27:20) Kelly: Every other time, it’s just like, (0:27:22) Kelly: that guy was just doing his job or her job, (0:27:24) Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:27:26) Kelly: like, this is how it should go, don’t clap. (0:27:29) Al: If you thought you were going to die or you’re flying Ryanair. (0:27:35) Al: All right, so let’s get into some game news now. (0:27:37) Al: So the first in the news is Sunheavour. (0:27:40) Al: I’ve announced their UK, Switzerland, and New Zealand release date. (0:27:46) Al: If you’re not up to date with the weird situation here, I will just summarize it. (0:27:51) Al: Sunheaven announced their America’s release date, and then they announced their Asian (0:27:57) Al: release dates. (0:27:59) Al: And then they announced most of Europe and also Australia, but not Switzerland, the United (0:28:05) Al: Kingdom, and New Zealand. (0:28:07) Al: And I, at the time, and still do think they just forgot. (0:28:10) Al: Well, so the Switzerland and United Kingdom I noticed were alphabetically at the end of the list, after all the other countries, so I just think they just copied and pasted incorrectly. (0:28:12) Kelly: ‘Cause I was like, what a weird bunch of countries to kind of like… (0:28:26) Al: I’m not sure why New Zealand, maybe they just forgot it existed, but I’m not 100% sure what the system. (0:28:34) Kelly: Because I would think New Zealand and Australia would be paired together like (0:28:36) Al: Well, so, so, right, OK, so… (0:28:40) Al: The weird thing about… So, the way the eShop works is there are, I think, six different regions. (0:28:47) Al: There is one for North America and one for South America, one for Europe, Australia, (0:28:55) Al: and New Zealand, and South Africa, I believe, and then there’s one for Japan, one for Hong Kong, (0:29:02) Al: and one for South Korea. Was that six? That was six. I believe that’s all of them. (0:29:04) Kelly: Okay. Yeah. (0:29:09) Al: what I understand based. (0:29:10) Al: So I think this is just them like cleaning up after their mistake and not admitting it, (0:29:30) Al: which is weird. And I also think the reason that they got they released it region by region is (0:29:36) Al: because they didn’t realize there were multiple regions until they’d already added it. (0:29:41) Al: To the Americas one. (0:29:42) Kelly: That’s so funny! (0:29:45) Al: And the problem is we don’t know any of this because the Sunhaven developers are very bad (0:29:49) Al: at communicating their discard after they announced the European release date before (0:29:54) Al: they announced that also included United Kingdom Switzerland and New Zealand was just people (0:29:59) Al: saying, so is it not coming to the UK? Is it coming a different date? What’s happening? (0:30:03) Al: And it turns out it’s exactly the same date, which would back up my they just forgot to tell you (0:30:08) Al: about it because there are two. (0:30:10) Al: There is a possibility of that, but I mean, generally the regions are very similar politically. (0:30:29) Kelly: which I could see because it’s like, aren’t some countries kind of (0:30:40) Kelly: Yeah, that’s true. (0:30:41) Al: But if that is the case, what happened was they ticked all of the boxes except the UK, (0:30:48) Al: Switzerland, and New Zealand. They did not check those boxes and then they put in a different (0:30:53) Al: release and checked just those three countries. Because it’s not even like an EU versus not EU (0:31:01) Al: thing, because Norway was in the first release and is not in the EU, and obviously Australia is (0:31:01) Kelly: No, it’s a, it’s a weird. (0:31:06) Al: is not in the EU and Switzerland is not in the EU but for (0:31:10) Al: and purposes regulatorily it is the same and the UK is mostly the same because obviously it was in (0:31:17) Al: the EU until four years ago so it’s a bit of a mess I miss clicks or copy and paste mistake which (0:31:22) Kelly: Yeah, that’s, that’s, that sounds like a misclick, a few misclicks, for sure. (0:31:31) Al: is what I think I think they went and tried to copy the entire list and just missed the last two (0:31:35) Al: of them. (0:31:38) Kelly: and then did not even like acknowledge it or any like. (0:31:41) Al: Yeah well that’s the weird thing right? Like people have been talking about this from the (0:31:45) Al: moment they published their post about it coming to Europe and they said nothing (0:31:51) Al: and so like if they had just it almost feels like they just don’t want to admit their mistakes (0:31:56) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But they could just make a joke about it like this. People would (0:31:56) Al: and but why in such a weird way? Yeah! (0:32:01) Kelly: find it funny like it’s not a it’s an inconsequential mistake like nobody’s. (0:32:06) Al: Yeah. And the people already think they don’t communicate. And so making this weird like, (0:32:13) Al: oh, we weren’t wrong. We were right all along. Thing just makes it seem even weirder. Oh, (0:32:22) Al: anyway, living on. We have one DLC release. So Everdream Valley have announced a family (0:32:31) Al: time DLC. This is coming to Steam on the 6th of December and then in consoles. (0:32:36) Al: Next year Q1. This has new story quests, new NPCs, new animals and new furniture. That’s (0:32:45) Al: an interesting thing to put in a DLC. Well, quests, were quests, animals and furniture. (0:32:52) Al: I guess NPCs like, I guess that’s not an unusual thing to put like new characters in, but the (0:32:54) Kelly: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, like I could see, like a lot of games will do like a new DLC with (0:33:03) Kelly: more quests. You know, so maybe. Yeah, yeah, that’s how I would take it. Yeah, like it’s (0:33:04) Al: Mm hmm. Yes. Yeah. Okay. I guess. Yeah. They’re not saying like this is by the DLC to get (0:33:10) Al: quests. It’s the DLC comes with quests. Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. The furniture (0:33:13) Kelly: like additional furniture, additional quests, additional NPCs kind of thing that that’s I (0:33:17) Kelly: could be wrong. But that’s how I would read it. Yeah, that’s just add on. (0:33:19) Al: is, I guess, not weird because it’s just like that’s pretty common thing. And then we have (0:33:24) Al: three updates to games. Snacko have released their builder’s dream update, which I’m sure (0:33:30) Al: you can guess where that is. It’s a whole bunch of crafting building stuff. (0:33:34) Al: Lots of good improvements. And I guess we’re not getting Snacko 1.0 this year. (0:33:41) Al: We’re probably getting next year. Because that’s 0.9.5. So close. (0:33:44) Kelly: They intentionally just decided we’re going to add a few more digits into this. (0:33:55) Kelly: It looks so cute though, I wanted to come out. (0:33:57) Al: Yeah, at this point I’m like, because I’ve not played it since the early access came out, (0:34:01) Al: I did play a very early alpha of it. Because I’ve not played it since the early access (0:34:07) Al: come out, at this point I’m like, I just need to wait for the 1.0, right? (0:34:10) Kelly: Yeah. Yeah, because I feel like at this point, it’s like if you don’t wait for the 1.0, (0:34:15) Kelly: like what are you getting out of the 1.0 when it comes out? (0:34:17) Al: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. I will, I will say, I will say, Snacko Devs, listen to me. (0:34:25) Al: We’re good friends, we’ve talked before. (0:34:27) Al: Listen to me now, do not release this in December. (0:34:30) Al: You released the early access last December. (0:34:32) Al: Do not, do not do this. (0:34:35) Al: I beg of you, January, January’s fine. (0:34:39) Al: Do not release your 1.0 in December. (0:34:41) Al: I will cry. (0:34:43) Al: I will cry. (0:34:44) Al: Thank you. (0:34:45) Kelly: - You’re gonna release it December 31st at… (0:34:48) Al: That’s OK, that’s December 31st is fine. (0:34:50) Al: That’s basically January, because I will have recorded all the episodes by then (0:34:54) Al: for the year. It’s not like I need to then rush it, right? (0:34:57) Al: As a 2024 game, it was December the 31st. (0:35:00) Kelly: Also, I just love in their little notes the difference in communication where they literally (0:35:08) Kelly: have screenshots from the Discord talking about part of the updates here. (0:35:10) Al: Mm. Yeah. (0:35:13) Al: That is such a good point. (0:35:14) Al: Snacko Dev is fantastic with communication. (0:35:16) Al: Like they are literally just in the Discord talking to people. (0:35:20) Al: Sunhaven, I have never seen a single one of them talk in the Discord. (0:35:26) Al: Yeah, definitely. (0:35:28) Al: Spiritity have released their Phantom Friends update, which adds a… (0:35:33) Al: You can have your spirits as pets now. (0:35:40) Al: Interesting change. (0:35:40) Kelly: to like follow you around. (0:35:41) Al: If, yeah, yeah, they follow you around and replace your existing… (0:35:48) Al: No, they don’t replace your existing spirit companion. (0:35:50) Al: They add to… (0:35:53) Kelly: I wonder if I should give this game another chance. (0:35:55) Kelly: It seems like they’ve added so much since I last played. (0:35:57) Al: possibly, yeah. (0:36:00) Kelly: But I have enough other farming games. (0:36:08) Kelly: That’s that. That was my issue. (0:36:13) Kelly: Yeah. (0:36:18) Kelly: Now that is a good point, because I feel like I just at its core, (0:36:21) Kelly: I felt kind of listless playing the game. (0:36:25) Kelly: So, yeah, I think you do have a good point. (0:36:27) Kelly: I just like I want to like it so much. (0:36:30) Al: I agree. I also want to like it. Um, but I guess about it, that counts, right? (0:36:36) Kelly: - Yeah, it does have very positive reviews, (0:36:38) Kelly: so obviously other people are enjoying it. (0:36:39) Al: Which is good, which is good. And it’s, you know, yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. Um, (0:36:39) Kelly: So I’m glad, yeah, I’m glad. (0:36:41) Kelly: ‘Cause I do like, I like the whole concept. (0:36:47) Al: and it’s over 500 reviews as well. So it’s not, it’s not like they’re, they must be getting (0:36:52) Al: enough. That’s, you know, 500 reviews means quite a lot more people buying it, right? Because (0:36:57) Al: most people do not review your game. (0:37:00) Kelly: Yeah, no, I don’t think I think I’ve reviewed like two games (0:37:00) Al: I don’t know if I’ve reviewed any of them on Steam. (0:37:09) Al: They’ve also added new spirits, so that’s what you care about in the game, right? (0:37:15) Al: The spirits. (0:37:16) Al: So there you go. (0:37:19) Al: And the final update is Far Lands. (0:37:22) Al: I’ve released their 0.3 update. (0:37:25) Al: This is the biggest update Far Lands has seen to date. (0:37:30) Al: It adds achievements, which is always a good thing. (0:37:34) Al: Another game we’re about to talk about later on in this episode could have. (0:37:37) Al: That would be great. (0:37:38) Al: Please and thank you. (0:37:42) Kelly: I also love achievements. (0:37:44) Kelly: It’s honestly one of the big things (0:37:45) Kelly: that I really like from not playing (0:37:47) Kelly: as many games on the Switch and switching over to PC. (0:37:48) Al: Mm, yeah, I wonder if, well, almost every game feels a mystery. I wonder if, because (0:37:51) Kelly: I’m like, oh, achievements in every game. (0:37:54) Kelly: How nice. (0:37:59) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:38:05) Al: obviously they have been slowly getting more and more features as they get a lot, you know, (0:38:10) Al: like the 3DS added a bunch of stuff that other games, other systems had, and then the Switch (0:38:16) Al: called Mostly Modern. (0:38:18) Al: Maybe the next switch you’ll have. (0:38:23) Kelly: Maybe. I always wonder, I didn’t know what the issue was, to be honest, because I know (0:38:28) Kelly: when some people, what is it called, port the games to the Switch, like I know for HoloNet (0:38:34) Kelly: I can’t do video screenshots. I could do plain image screenshots. Yeah, because I think it’s (0:38:37) Al: Yeah, interesting. That, so I believe the video screenshots is something they can disable. (0:38:46) Kelly: about how hard it is for the person porting it to, I guess… Okay. (0:38:51) Al: I don’t think that requires any work on their point. I think it’s more a case of they didn’t (0:38:53) Kelly: Which is, yeah, because it’s weird, because you can record it on every other device. But (0:38:55) Al: want to add that feature. I’m not sure why, but… Yeah. (0:39:03) Kelly: that was also one of the ones where I don’t have achievements, and I know there’s achievements (0:39:06) Kelly: for that game. Yeah. (0:39:07) Al: And some games add them into the game itself, like they’ll add, but that’s a lot of work. (0:39:11) Al: The whole point of the achievements in Steam and stuff is that they’re very easy to do, (0:39:16) Al: because it’s literally just, “Here’s my list of achievements,” and then you put in the code to say (0:39:20) Al: when the achievement is hit. Yeah, because it doesn’t have… Switch doesn’t have an achievement (0:39:22) Kelly: Oh, so that’s the issue is that it’s just hard to add them in on the switch, like the switch doesn’t make it okay. (0:39:29) Al: system. So if you want to have it on the Switch, you have to build it entirely yourself. And it (0:39:34) Kelly: Uh, I’m dumb. I understand now. (0:39:34) Al: And it would be only within game because there are a. (0:39:38) Al: Couple of games that have done that they’ve recreated the achievement system in their own game, but then it only works for that game and it takes a lot of work to do that. (0:39:40) Kelly: Mm hmm. (0:39:42) Kelly: Mm hmm. (0:39:46) Kelly: Yeah, okay, that makes sense. That makes a lot more sense. (0:39:47) Al: Whereas with steam and with Xbox and with PlayStation there’s a piece of code that they can call which just does the achievement for them so. (0:39:54) Kelly: Okay, I knew it was something to do with how it set up, but I never looked into the actual basic why behind it (0:40:02) Al: They’ve added to upgrade system as well. (0:40:04) Al: They’ve added food, they’ve added house upgrade system, they’ve added new (0:40:07) Al: furniture, they’ve added guests and better NPCs, one of which looks like a xenomorph. (0:40:12) Al: Not sure why. (0:40:14) Kelly: I like his jacket. (0:40:14) Al: Legally distinct, legally distinct xenomorph. (0:40:20) Al: Yeah, it looks like a pretty big update. (0:40:21) Al: I haven’t played this game yet. I do want that. (0:40:24) Kelly: Yeah, it’s on my list of games to check out. I just I tried to avoid most early access, honestly. (0:40:33) Al: Good thing we’re not talking about an early access today then (0:40:39) Kelly: Is it generally? (0:40:42) Al: So that’s the game updates. (0:40:43) Al: We now have three new games to talk about, (0:40:47) Al: the first of which actually, no, let’s go the other way around. (0:40:49) Al: Let’s talk about Dreamland Farm first, (0:40:51) Al: because I think this will be the quickest to talk about. (0:40:55) Al: Dreamland Farm. (0:40:56) Al: Since childhood, you’ve dreamed of being close to nature, (0:40:59) Al: but being born and raised in the city stood in the way of that. (0:41:02) Al: The closer you were to adulthood, the more time you spent with your grandma, (0:41:05) Al: who showed you all around her own farm, from crops to berries and mushrooms, (0:41:09) Al: everything she knew, she taught you, she prepared you to be her (0:41:12) Al: successor. I mean that’s just every farming game. I don’t know. I don’t know. And what (0:41:16) Kelly: - Yeah, why do they all do that? (0:41:19) Al: I find really interesting is like, so if you have a farming game, the description should (0:41:25) Al: tell you what’s different about it. Don’t be like, oh, it’s a farming game. It’s like, (0:41:27) Kelly: Yeah. This time it’s your uncle and not your grandpa. (0:41:28) Al: yeah, we know that, right? It’s like, if you have, yeah, exactly, exactly. It’s like, come (0:41:36) Al: on. Let’s not, let’s not pretend. This one looks… (0:41:42) Al: Pretty… I don’t see anything unique in this, personally. (0:41:46) Kelly: I only gave it a cursory glance and it does look pretty. (0:41:52) Kelly: It doesn’t look like it’s breaking any boxes or molds or whatever though. (0:41:56) Al: But equally I also didn’t think about Fields of Mistria and didn’t want to play that until I decided, until it got a lot of buzz and I was like okay it’s time to play this one, you know, like, sometimes you can’t tell without playing it, which is a PR problem, obviously. (0:42:12) Kelly: Which goes back to your point of pointing out the differences (0:42:14) Kelly: and not the similarities. (0:42:19) Kelly: That’s what you need to get in touch with all the devs (0:42:22) Kelly: about is changing their PR management. (0:42:26) Al: I will be your PR. (0:42:29) Al: No, no, I will not. (0:42:32) Al: That is very much a conflict of interests. (0:42:36) Al: This one interestingly, so it’s now it’s on Switch and Xbox, it is not on Steam, which (0:42:41) Al: is interesting. (0:42:42) Kelly: Oh, that feels so backwards. (0:42:43) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:42:47) Al: I wonder why. (0:42:48) Kelly: I wonder right too, especially if it’s on x. (0:42:49) Al: Yeah, because it’s not like it’s they had an exclusivity deal with Switch, because then (0:42:54) Al: and they wouldn’t be on Xbox. (0:42:57) Al: And the Xbox version did come out like a week after the Switch version. (0:43:01) Al: That’s not long enough for it to be an exclusivity. (0:43:04) Kelly: - No. (laughs) (0:43:04) Al: So yeah, weird. (0:43:07) Al: I don’t know, I’ll keep an eye on it. (0:43:09) Kelly: Hopefully it’s good. (0:43:09) Kelly: Hopefully they got something unique in it. (0:43:11) Al: Yeah, yeah, hopefully. (0:43:13) Al: Hopefully. (0:43:14) Al: It’s 10 pounds. (0:43:16) Al: Is it 15 dollars? (0:43:18) Al: Probably. (0:43:20) Kelly: Probably something like that, yeah. (0:43:22) Al: So it feels cheap enough to like buy it and play it. (0:43:26) Al: And if you’re not bothered by it, then it’s not the end of the world sort of thing. (0:43:30) Al: Next we have RATOPIA. (0:43:33) Al: RATOPIA. (0:43:35) Al: I keep wanting to say RATOPIA, but it’s only one T, so it’s definitely RATOPIA. (0:43:38) Kelly: Uh, to be fair, I say rat topia (0:43:41) Al: Yeah, but there’s no second T. (0:43:42) Kelly: Well, he sounds better I know but it’s funner to say that way (0:43:47) Kelly: For the podcast, I will say rat topia (0:43:50) Al: RATOPIA. RATOPIA is a new game that is combined first of all, a new game, come on. What is (0:44:01) Al: that? I just feel like sometimes I feel like this this podcast is just me editing and critiquing (0:44:07) Al: the descriptions of games. Is a new game. Yeah, we know that. Don’t add that in. Also (0:44:13) Al: just a point, you don’t need to put your name in the description because your name is elsewhere (0:44:17) Al: on the page, right? Just right. (0:44:19) Kelly: Uh, you sound like somebody’s like third grade English teacher critiquing their (0:44:20)

In this episode of the Building Texas Business Podcast, I interview Kelly Young, CEO of the Coalition for the Homeless in Houston. We explore how Houston has become a national model for reducing homelessness through data-driven strategies and collaborative efforts. Kelly shares insights on effective nonprofit leadership, emphasizing the importance of building solid and accountable teams and fostering diverse thinking. We discuss the critical need for sustainable funding in homeless response systems, moving away from reliance on sporadic disaster funding. Throughout our conversation, we delve into Houston's successes and the ongoing challenges in addressing homelessness. -- SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Chris introduces Kelly Young, CEO of the Coalition for the Homeless in Houston, discussing the organization's role in coordinating the Way Home system. Kelly describes her journey from providing direct services to adopting a systems-thinking approach, emphasizing the importance of data-driven strategies and compliance in managing federal funds. We discuss the structure of the Coalition, including key departments like finance, compliance, outreach, landlord engagement, and housing, as well as its unique position working between city and county governments. Kelly shares insights on building strong, accountable teams in nonprofit leadership, balancing visionary goals with improvisational strategies, and fostering an environment where diverse thinking thrives. We explore the significance of clear communication, especially for introverted thinkers, and the importance of acknowledging mistakes openly to build trust and strengthen teams. Kelly highlights the critical need for sustainable homeless response system funding, discussing the inadequacies of relying on sporadic disaster funding and the necessity of evolving data to better serve those still on the streets. We delve into the business rationale for investing in homeless response systems, emphasizing that it's a financially sound decision that ultimately reduces costs on public health and other services. Kelly explains the success of Houston's model for reducing homelessness, including the collaborative efforts among for-profit, non-profit, and public entities, and the innovative use of disaster funds from Hurricane Harvey and COVID. We address the importance of community engagement and understanding how systems work, as well as addressing severe mental illness and substance abuse issues more effectively. Kelly shares leadership lessons learned through experience, including the importance of passion, data integrity, personal and professional integrity in communication, and fostering a culture of risk-taking and growth. LINKSShow Notes Previous Episodes About BoyarMiller About CFTHhouston GUESTS Kelly YoungAbout Kelly TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Chris: In this episode, you will meet Kelly Young, CEO of the Coalition for the Homeless in Houston. Kelly shares several great tips for leaders, including the value of direct communication. She also sheds light on the homeless response system and why Houston is leading the country in reducing homelessness in our community. Kelly, I want to thank you for taking the time to come on Building Texas Business. It's great to see you. Kelly: Lovely to see you and thank you for inviting me. Chris: So you are the CEO of the Coalition for the Homeless in Houston, and so a little bit different guest than normal, but not outside the box for us. Tell us what the Coalition for the Homeless is and what it does. So. Kelly: I like to think of the Coalition for the Homeless is and what it does. So I like to think of the Coalition for the Homeless as a coordinating body over what we call the Way Home, which is a collective of for-profit or non-profit and public entities that come together to resolve the issue of homelessness. Chris: Very good. So how did you get involved in the homeless response system, how long have you been involved and what really inspired you to do this? Kelly: I've actually been interested in helping people figure out better lives for themselves since I was like 12. I mean, I was what was called a people tutor when I was in a middle school, where I actually helped individuals with physical disabilities learn sports. And then I did some tutoring in high school and then I started working in a shelter for abused kids and I worked with kids who were coming out of psychiatric units. Then I worked in domestic and sexual violence. So I think I was always on a path to be a part of something that helped make other people's lives easier for them to be successful. When you do a lot of that direct work, you see the individual impact and the individual failures. When you get to do it on a systems level, you get to decide whether a system will be helpful in helping someone or whether it's setting up people for failure. So I've been in the Way Home system for about 12 years as an individual agency that helped provide direct services. But I'm actually a systems thinker by nature and so I kept going well, why doesn't this work and why doesn't this work? And the whole system here works. My job was to help it work better. So you know, like with any system or any business, you're constantly thinking about the future and what needs to change and what's going to be different coming up, and so I got the perfect opportunity to come in at a time when there is a major shift in many of the pillars of how the work is done, and I get to help design what that's going to look like, and that, to me, is the purpose of work. Chris: Love it. That's great. So, just to give our listeners maybe some context, let's just talk about the size of the organization, the coalition itself and maybe then, and maybe then, the system, participants and members, so they get an idea of what it is, that the organization is that you're running, as well as a system that you're trying to help manage and, as you said, get better and be more successful. Kelly: Well, I think, like any business, we are well-structured in terms of having enough staff to do the things that are core to our business model, and a couple of those things is we have a heavy compliance and finance department. We are nonprofits, are tax status not our business model, and we think of finance and compliance as sort of the heart of the organization. It pumps the blood through because we manage and help support almost 23 million to $40 million with a federal funding which requires us to follow lots of rules and regulation and make sure it's done correctly, not just for us, but also for our partners. We will provide certain types of services if we think that from a systems perspective, it makes sense to have an overlay. So we have an outreach team, we have a landlord engagement team and I can go more into depth about that when I talk about the system and then we have a housing team and those are really to bolster the system, not to replace the system in those jobs. And then we have this second largest department, which is really our data. We're a data-driven organization. 12 years ago, the coalition made a major shift, which was to use data to drive the construct of how the community actually resolves homelessness or deals with homelessness in the community and in that data. What we did was build out our 100 partners who have to agree to be a part of the database and include all that information but also follow some of our guidelines around standards, so that we can bring more and more money in from the federal government but also provide much better services and a quicker response to somebody who falls into homelessness. Chris: Okay, so, and at the coalition, what is it? Roughly 80-ish, I think, employees. Kelly: Yes, we're at 80. And I think we're also unique because we sit between the county and the city. We are trying to manage both of their expectations around homelessness. So sometimes people think of us as quasi-government. We are not. We are a nonprofit. But we sit there so that we can meter both sides what the county and the city wants and they don't have to be trying to work that through. So we always find the best solution for both Harris County, montgomery County and Fort Bend, and then the city of Houston Very good. Chris: So yeah, let's talk a little bit about the system. You know some people may be aware I think you know a lot aren't but just the success of Houston and how Houston has become the model for the country on addressing homelessness, reducing homelessness in our community. You know a lot's been written, most recently about the Houston Chronicle a little over a year ago, new York Times. You know you've been involved and interviewed in those things. Share a little bit for people to kind of understand how successful Houston's been to date. And of course, we can talk more later about the challenges we still face. Kelly: Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things and again, any good business person or anybody who's looking to innovate understands that you first have to know the problem you have and then understand how you want to solve that problem, and for what I think the system did really well over the last 12 years is to build out the right system mechanisms and then the right interventions to use our money to the fullest extent. So what most people don't understand is that for the homeless response system which we oversee, that is mainly funded by federal dollars and so we are under federal guidelines on how we do that, which means we actually cannot interact or help somebody until they are currently on the street and in that then we have to be able to place them in other places, including permanent supportive housing, which is for somebody with a documented disability who's been on the street for a long time. They still will pay part of their rent out of their disability dollars, but we give them a subsidized apartment and appointments to kind of get off the street and going again. I think the other piece that people don't understand is that we only have two systems. We only have rapid rehousing or permanent supportive housing. So our options are very limited, which means you have to be incredibly smart and innovative about how you engage not only the community, the people who need the service, but then the service delivery when we have taken advantage of, which I think is true in Houston. Why I love this city so much is we take disasters and turn them into determination, and so we took both the Hurricane Harvey and COVID and use those additional dollars to build out enough of a safety net, but then also a permanent place for people to live, that we were able to move over the last 11 years, 30,000 people off the street. We reduced homelessness by 60% and I know people are like, well, but I see people on the street, Absolutely, but you don't see the ones we placed in the housing and who moved on with their lives because they're gone. They're doing their lives. Chris: The thing people I think should know is and you can share some details but you know and we know from the research and the data that A lot of what's at the streetlight, those aren't homeless people. Kelly: Right. We also have an issue with people living below the poverty line. So United Way points out and rightfully so, that 40% of the individuals in Houston are $400 away from catastrophe and that means we have a lot of people living on the edge. So if you're unable to get a job or you're unable to work full time, you might see people who are out panhandling to get a job, or you're unable to work full-time, you might see people who are out panhandling. There's also people who take advantage of people who are in those situations and use that as their own mechanism to make money, because they actually place people there and then collect some of their money so that they could go stay in their shelter. So it's an interesting world when you actually find out what's going on in your street corners. Chris: Right, right. Well, I love that Obviously very close to this issue and the system, and so I think it's great to be able to tout the success we're having, as well as you know the challenges we face. You know people talk about the goal of ending homelessness and I love the kind of the phrase that's been adopted is making it rare, brief and non-reoccurring, because, as you said, so many people are living right on the edge. People are going to something's going to happen, people are going to end up homeless, but the question is is there a system there that can rapidly get them into housing and the supportive services they need to recorrect? Kelly: Yeah, absolutely, and I think the important piece of this is looking at equilibrium. So what you want, I don't need to have a lot of additional dollars that are sitting there waiting to do something. I need just-in-time dollars. I need to know that if a downturn has happened in the economy, if there's something happening on the street, return you know, in terms of people falling more readily into homelessness, rents have gone up something else has happened. I want to be able to bolster that very quickly so I can move those individuals off the street within 30 to 45 days. That reduces not only the trauma on that individual but it reduces the trauma on the community and as a community member myself I mean, I live in Midtown, so I often see a lot of individuals I've known for a long time to be on the street and you know what I don't want people to do is to get to the point where they don't care about those individuals anymore because it's disrupting their community. So equilibrium not only benefits the individual, who is facing a really difficult time, and moving them on quickly so it's a blip in their life, not an extension of their life and then also for the community to be able to stay in that caring and compassionate place so that they'll get involved and stay involved in the work of our unhoused neighbors and friends and, quite honestly, brothers and sisters. Chris: So let's turn the page a little bit and talk about you know you came into this organization at the beginning of 2024. Let's talk about what it's like to, you know, step in as a CEO, a new CEO into an organization and some of the how you approach that from a mindset, because I would think you know some of our listeners may find themselves there, may be experiencing it as well. So what was the mindset you kind of took in to make it a smooth transition and so that one you could honor what's been, what was being done by the you know, maybe previous CEO, but you know, make a smooth transition and find a way to put your own mark on the organization moving forward. Kelly: I think one of the best things people can do is first lie to themselves and then tell their truth. The lie you tell yourself is that you know everything's going to change and you list it out and you ready yourself for that. Intellectually, I do think where you probably need to tell your truth is that change is complicated and hard. I think sometimes, when you're in a leadership role, you want to reframe things for other people so that it's easy for them to understand and maybe to jump on board, but you yourself know it's difficult. I mean when you know the financial picture is going to change, the model is going to change, the people are going to change, and those were all true for us. That list sounds great and easy, but it is a constant attention to each small move that you're making and what the long-term impact is. I always describe strategy as visionary and improvisational and I think that's a good balance and that's how I've been able to translate what I think needs to happen in an organization. I mean, obviously you're listening, you know the pillars have sort of changed. You're listening to other people, you're absorbing other people, but I also come in and I'm really clear about how I work and what my accomplishment looks like and how success looks to me, and I drive that home in every single meeting. So people learn to trust that what I'm saying is true. When I make a mistake, I tell everybody straight up. I'm you know it's not falling on my sword. I just think it's important to model that. I think one thing is, for some of us who are more introverted thinkers, one of the hardest things to learn to do is how to over-commun messaging to people. Chris: Because I do so much of it in my head, I have to remember to actually put words to it well, and I mean yeah, go ahead obviously not the right, but I mean I can relate to that because you not only that, there's so many things going on in your brain, right, and you're you like. I just completed this, I got to get to the next thing and it's finding that time to either stop and slow down and communicate before you move on or, you know, remember at some point you need to stop and let people know what's going on through those ears. Advert Hello friends, this is Chris Hanslick, your Building Texas business host. Did you know that Boyer Miller, the producer of this podcast, is a business law firm that works with entrepreneurs, corporations and business leaders? Our team of attorneys serve as strategic partners to businesses by providing legal guidance to organizations of all sizes. Get to know the firm at boyermillercom and thanks for listening to the show. Kelly: Yeah, I always call it the Kelly Young madness or the Kelly Young magic, because it's like some people are good at waiting to see what's going to happen. Other people are like I have no idea what she's doing and we're just going to hope this all works out. And it's my responsibility as a leader to alleviate both of those misunderstandings. Right, because I need people engaged in the process. I'm a big believer that right buck stops with me. I'm going to make the final decision, but very rarely is the final decision my decision. It's everybody else's input. I'll take the accountability, I'll be the one who pushes it through. But if I don't have the buy-in from the group and they can't be settled in some agreement, especially when you're changing from something that has run successfully for a very long time and all the conditions changed and change and you have to let people know it's not, we're not changing because you did something wrong. We're changing because it's time to move forward. That kind of reframing I think is extremely helpful and that stuff. You should know what you're going to say and how you're going to lay that out to your team before you start day one. Chris: Very good. So, speaking of team obviously you just said this in one of your responses that is, while the buck stops with you, you make the final decision. It's rarely your decision. That's because you have a team around you, right, and you're relying on them and you're pushing them, all those things. So let's talk about building a solid team around you. What are some of the things that you look for? Again, this isn't your first time to be CEO of an organization, so I know you've built teams more than once. Let's talk a little bit about that. What are some of the things you look for in the hiring process, in the evaluation of the people that you have when you take over? I think there's a lot that could be learned from that. Kelly: I'm one of those people. I'm a little super nerdy this way and I learned a decision-making model a long time ago called the seven hats, and the idea behind it is that each person at the table wears a different hat, and so you have somebody who's the white hat, which is the emotional and red hat, and they're the naysayer. And as much as I'd rather have everybody just do what I want and like me and do all that. I also know that's a terrible way to run anything, so I work really hard at actually having very different ways of thinking at a leadership level. Sometimes that causes more conflict or contrast in the way we resolve an issue, but I expect people to come and learn professional communication skills, and if you can't, you should go back to school or learn a YouTube. I don't care, because the purpose should be. I need you to be here for what we're here for. I don't like a lot of internal nonsense. I don't like us spending a bunch of time on stuff that doesn't matter, because the kind of work I've always done meant somebody did not get out of a domestic violence situation because we were spending time arguing about who left the coffee pot on. You know I walk past somebody who's on the street who needs to get housed. I don't want to sitting around arguing because somebody thought somebody was rude one day. Like that just can't be in the workplace. I get why it is, but I want people who come ready to do work and actually can define what work means to them. The second thing is always happens in this field. I just want to help people and that to me, is the death nail answer, because my answer, my question back to you is going to be what does that mean and how does that look? Because you wanting to help people doesn't have very much to do with actually serving people. Those are two very different concepts. So I also am very clear about the environment that I want at work and you have a choice Don't sign up and then come in and want to change it, add to it, make it better. But I'm not going to adjust what I think has to happen in an organization to go to the next level, because I typically have taken jobs where I'm right in the middle of a major change and I do know what needs to be functionally happening on a regular basis to make that shift. Chris: So you know that's very insightful and you know the core of what I think you're saying. If you boil it down, is it comes back to very clear, direct communication, setting expectations, et cetera, and then holding people accountable. All of that then leads to culture when you're building these teams. If you think about what you've done in the last nine months at the coalition, how would you describe the culture that you're striving for, that you feel like you have? You know, growing there. Kelly: I have a speech I used to call the mean speech I never thought it was mean, but somebody had called it where I lay out what I learned over the time of my working, in the time that I made some really serious mistakes, and what I learned from those and how they need to interpret that into their new work environment. And so with that, I think what happens in the culture is they actually see me living the story I told and I bring it up over and over again in different pieces. I think storytelling is important for that reason, but I show them what I did that didn't work, so that they have a clear understanding of what I learned from what I didn't do or what I did wrong. So they understand that this is a learning environment, that part of your responsibility is to be curious and to want to understand how to do things better or differently. If you come in and you say to me well, you know, I just need the training and I need this, you will not last well in my organizations, because I expect that you're more interested than that. You have to want to care about data. Data is most important, particularly in nonprofits, because you are telling the future of how most federal dollars are going to be spent in your case notes or in your reports. I talk a lot about gossip and that you can't stop it, but you have a personal and professional integrity line in how you communicate account. You know, for me I run it this way, which is every single dollar that comes in here is somebody else's dollar and somebody else's money, and so there's very little room to make major mistakes or to waste, because that's your money that you're wasting. And if we cannot do it the best, if we cannot show up in ways that people expect, then we should give that money to somebody else. And I tell people don't be miserable. If you don't like working here, you don't like the here, you don't like the work, you don't like the commute, you don't like any of that stuff, oh my gosh, why are you spending your life doing something you don't like Like? Go be happy. Chris: That's so true, right? I mean I think we talk about it. I know in our organization is, if you don't connect with our mission and our passion, it's okay. You know it doesn't make you a bad person, it just means there's a different organization for you where you're going to be happier. And then you should go find that, because we want the people that if they connect with that mission and passion of our organization, then they're going to be living their best self, which opens them up to serve our clients and each other to their fullest potential. Right. Kelly: And I also think we try to be very or I've always tried to be. I'm not interested in telling you how to do your job because you don't want kelly young's opinion of how to do your job. You want your own opinion. I hired somebody who's smart and talented and knows how to do that and you don't want my limited vision of that. But when people also say, well, I don't like to be micromanaged, I'm like, well, I'd be interested in why people feel like they have to micromanage you. So if you are showing up to work and over-communicating and letting people know, I shouldn't have to do that, but I will if you're not able to do that, because I still need to know what's happening. So I often turn some of those things that people say back on them, just so a little self-awareness, and help them understand, because you will not like working for a CEO who will say, who will call you and be like, why does this number not match this number? And it's not because I don't trust you, it's that I need the number to make sense, because I'm about to go tell a bunch of people this number. So it's interesting. I actually really love building culture. I think I do a good job of creating enough openness that people feel like they can participate if they choose to. Chris: Well, you know, one of the things I think has been written a lot about and it's hard, it's a hard skill for some leaders to get to, but you learn so much by, rather than telling is asking questions. And you know, like you said, turn it around on them and ask the questions and then, a lot of times, as they are forced to answer those questions, they realize where to go. Kelly: Yeah, and it's funny because there's a new book out by the gentleman who wrote Sapiens and his new book is called Nexus and I heard him in an interview and I thought this was really interesting because I do think this is an issue with the workplace and maybe some generational conflict. He talks about information and not that. This is new. Talks about information and not. This is new. But information is not truth and part of the problem is that we tend to try to over inform and over educate to get to truth and neither one of those things will actually get you there, because truth is costly, it takes time, it takes energy and I do think we're in an overload of informing people as though that will change or grow somebody's understanding, when really all it did was add more information, not deeper truth. So, you know, I just find that a fascinating and I thought about it in terms of work we do, because I think one of the things the coalition has always done has been a truth teller and in that truth telling right now we're in huge inundation of information because we're going through a lot of change. How do we settle back into our truth? Chris: Interesting, yeah, okay, so you mentioned this and what I can't wait to hear more about. May not have time on this podcast, but your mean speech. You talked about the mistakes and sharing mistakes you made in the learning. And you know, I don't know if you listened to one of these before, but I love asking people you know, tell us about a setback, a mistake you made, but then how you learn from it. Right, and I think you know to your point, when you share those stories with the people in your organization, it humanizes you and allows for that culture of learning, take risk and it's okay to fail, because that's how we learn and get better. So let's you know, can you share an example that either comes out of the mean speech or something else? You know a Kelly Young mistake and how it made Kelly Young better? Kelly: Yeah, and this one was interesting and I think it sort of aligns in particular with people who work directly with people and I was a very benevolent leader at one point. So this is much more of a self-awareness mistake than an actual business mistake, but I think it's important and I was. It's all about, you know, serving, you know, women. Everybody had on their desk, on their computers what did I do today to end domestic or sexual violence? And I was all gung-ho and and I, you know, I was there for the work and, as I said, and we got a new CEO and I thought that I should have been tapped for the CEO position and nobody asked me. And so I was very self-righteous in my understanding of, first of all, well, if you don't let anybody know you're interested, they probably won't ask you. But second of all, just because you've done this job doesn't mean you're actually ready to do that job. And so I was awful. I mean I was awful for about six weeks and I made everybody hear my pain and how hard it was on me and all this kind of stuff. The hardest lesson to learn in all that was that for all my bravado and my great messaging and whatnot, I really wasn't there for the mission in that moment. I was really there for my ego. And if we are not self-aware enough to understand when you are using ego to sell people on a version of yourself that you think will make them like you better or follow you better, but it's not true because you haven't done enough self-work, I spent six weeks wasting time, I mean, and I find I left, I went and found a different job and that was the best thing for me to do. But in that one moment when you realize that you are a liar to yourself and to other people and you decide you're not going to do that anymore Best moment of my professional career, because I never made a decision ever again around benevolence or around pretending that rhetoric was more important than what I really could show up and do. So I didn't like that and I hate sharing that story because it sounds awful. I sound like a horrible human being, but I think most of us have that moment. Chris: What a powerful story. No, I mean I think to your point. I mean it doesn't make you powerful, think to your point. I mean it doesn't make you powerful, a horrible person. But that's a difficult thing for us as humans to face right, to really look in the mirror that deeply and call ourselves out and, more importantly then, actually do what it takes to change. Kelly: Yeah, and for me, what I learned is that if I really want to lead, lead it is not pretending you can't play at leading, it is a commitment. It's hard, it's lonely, it's complex and you have to build in ways where your mind just stops thinking, because I'm a little bit of an overthinker and you have to do that self-awareness all the time. You're in check, all the time when you're a leader. Chris: Yeah, everyone's watching, right. So that's, I mean, I think, to your point where basically you can't fake it. It's because so many people are watching every move, whether it's internal to your organization or external partners, you'll get exposed really fast. Kelly: Right, and then you lose their trust so they won't show up for you when you need them to and at the end of the day, whatever it is that you because I think about innovators and I have a gentleman I know who helped work on some incubation around medical devices. Well, some people are like, oh well, you work with homeless and it must be so rewarding. I'm like I actually think it'd be pretty cool to make medical devices that make people's lives better. I don't have that talent, but you know. So it doesn't really matter what is at the center of your passion and your mission. I worry when we tell people you know you fake it till you make it, because in leadership you really can't do that. You need to sit down and learn it. You need to know your truth. It goes back to that. You can inform me about all these things about being a leader, but until I know the truth about being a leader, I'm going to waste time and I'm a hyper efficiency person. So for me it's like if I can do it in two steps, I'd rather do that than 15. So I really don't faking. It would be way too easy for me to just practice all the time, so I have to not allow myself some of those, those things, cause I yeah, I'd rather be out riding my bike, only because it's only because it's been a long week. Chris: I get you, I get you. You need that release too. Finding a way to you know release as a leader is equally as important. Yes absolutely so. Let's turn the conversation back around to homelessness Talk a little bit. You know, maybe, where we are, but what the future looks like. You've mentioned a couple of times, you know, facing new challenges in this world of homeless response. Let's talk a little bit about that. I know we have, you know, world Homeless Day coming up. You know, share a little bit about that, but I just wanted you know our listeners to know a little bit about you know, maybe, how they can get involved and how they can help in this issue. Kelly: Yeah, I think you know. I think we have done such an incredible job of getting people into some type of permanent solution, so we're in decent shape there. But it was, as the Chronicle said, it's duct tape and determination. When you have to rely on funding that comes from disasters or pandemics, that is a terrible planning model and not very fiscally sound. So I think a couple of things for us. One is broadening our perspective in this phase we're kind of calling it phase four, and I think it's important to realize that systems should always have phases or pivot points, because systems die when they don't read themselves and make sure they're on the right track is kind of an overhaul of our data. What is our data telling us, but what is it, more importantly, not telling us? What do we need to know about who is still on the street? What do we need to know about our funding sources and what's available? We know that we're gonna run out of funding because of COVID by 2025. I'm going to make the argument over and over again that we are not. Homelessness used to be able to be resolved by people coming together and kind of helping a family or helping an individual. We've had so many other systems end up feeding people into homelessness, that we actually need a system response, and that includes system funding, which typically aligns with some type of consistent, regular money that's funding the system, so we never have to be out of balance again, and that's one of the things we're working on. The second is we've actually been going out and doing community mapping to help people understand community is not given, it's built. So if you want a different kind of community that you live in, you're going to have to get engaged and that's one of the ways that you can volunteer. So maybe you have a church, that you're in a neighborhood that people get fed, but the food containers and stuff get left all over the street or there's whatever. Well, you could complain about the trash, or you could complain the city doesn't pick up the trash, or you all could start a walking group. Everybody needs exercise, so you have choices in how you decide to engage in your community. I do think becoming much more aware and understanding how the system works and doesn't work resolves a lot of people's frustration about seeing somebody on the street. We also have to have much better interventions for individuals who are severely mentally ill and have substance use issues. We have housed a lot of people who apartments and appointments works really well, for we have some individuals who just cannot make good decisions to care for themselves, and we're going to have to address that and I think that's one of those things where people don't understand you said this earlier right now the way the homeless response system is set up. Chris: The federal dollars are all housing, coming from the housing side, and yet what we face and what you know, you and and your team know that we face is a very severe mental illness issue and kind of what's the hardest to serve, yet no dollars from the mental health side of the equation. Kelly: Right and certainly not at the level it needs to be in. Including residential care, additional beds and substance use is even far worse funded and I understand people are like, well, I don't want to. You know that's. People just need to figure out how to get their lives together, I agree. But you're making a choice then. You're either deciding we're not going to help somebody so they'll get where you want them to go, or you'll leave them on the street so they won't go where they're going to go. So you know again, these are choices that we are making. I am so happy to live in a city and a county that is as generous as it is. I mean, houston is one of the, I think, premier cities for the purpose of the fact that people actually care, kind, friendly, smart, innovative. I think the other piece for us is really having to get more upstream. That 40% scares me. That is devastating to a system you want to right-size or actually shrink Like. I don't want you to have me on a call 10 years from now and I've grown the homeless response system by three sizes Like somebody should fire me. That's not-. Chris: Work yourself out of a job. Kelly: Right, exactly, and so right-sizing ours, with the right amount of funding and then really pushing upstream to figure out how healthcare doesn't release people back onto the street with serious illnesses. Re-entry that's dealt with. Somebody who's hit a hard time can quickly get rehoused because we're helping for a few months. That's just being good neighbors, right. So I think that's pretty easy for people. We have a lot of work ahead of us, but I have the world's smartest team and the people who built this system and have watched over it the last 12 years. We're only gonna figure out the right and have watched over it the last 12 years. You know we're only going to figure out the right and the best path with the resources and the influence we have coming forward. Chris: Very good. Yeah, I think the future is very bright with the right people. So you know this is, you know, fundamentally, it's a business podcast and one of the things that you know, some of the data that I love to share is I always tell people, you know, when it comes to this homeless response and taking care of our neighbors who have fallen on this, you know, unfortunate time, there's a compassionate side, you know, which is, you know, obvious. But there's also a business side and some people you know connect on that and just share the numbers on the cost it takes to, you know, house someone on an annual basis versus if they're left on the street and use our public health system, et cetera. Because to me, if business owners are listening and thinking about this, the investment in the homeless response system is a no-brainer. Kelly: Right when we look at the numbers and I'm going to add for inflation, because we'll probably be in a recession next year is what I understand. Of course, they say that every year and I'm like, really at some point you know we're either or we're not, I don't know. No reason to even use the R word, right? Can we come up with something else, because this feels like a whole new thing. But I think you know you're talking about to house somebody and to make sure that they have access to the current systems that they need. Through their appointments and I always stress this they do not get to live for free, there is no free housing. They have to pay a percentage of their income or their benefits 30%, like the rest of us, and so for that it's $19,000 to $25,000 a year, not an overextensive amount of money you can go up to, depending on how often somebody uses other services up to $250,000 for them to stay on the street, and the reason for that is that every time you call the police on them, you have to count that money. Every time they go into an emergency room, you have to count all of that money. It's not to say they won't use those services, but they'll use them appropriately, which right sizes the dollars in the systems. So, right now, all this money. People are saying, well, we don't have the money. I'm like we do, we're systems. So right now, all this money. People are saying, well, we don't have the money. Chris: I'm like we do, we're just it's in the wrong bucket. Kelly: That's right. And if we moved it over and we agreed to just pay this for the next three years? I mean, if you're willing to pay a hundred dollars a month for charity, why are you not willing to pay one percent on your beer or your vaping? You don't even see that and get it to the point where you see the reduction in the rest of your costs and then you actually feel the relief on the tax end. You know, because you're not paying more and more on those parts of it. Wayne Young with the mental health services demonstrates that from a diversion point, for people with severe mental health to get into care is a one to $5 save. So it's $1 for him to do. It costs $5 for them to stay on the street, so economically it makes no sense. It's not cheaper. You're avoiding the problem instead of solving it and from any good business standpoint that's not what you do. You define the problem, you solve the problem. Chris: Right To summarize right I mean support the housing homeless response system. It's roughly $19,000 to $25,000 a year to do it and help us move people into housing and off the street. Leave them on the street. You're looking at annual cost of $100,000 to $250,000 to our system. Kelly: Right. And just the burnout rate of everybody trying to solve that and the trauma and the individual. I'm always going to add compassion to the dollars. But if you actually really care about that individual instead of just want them off the individual, I'm always going to add compassion to the dollars. But you know, if you actually really care about that individual instead of just want them off the street, I don't actually even care. You can have either of those opinions, doesn't matter to me. But it's going to be cheaper, more efficient, more effective if you buy into the response system and ensure that we have the right interventions for those people and don't have to wait till something terrible happens to be able to do this again. Chris: And ultimately all of that will make our community better and stronger. Kelly: Absolutely, absolutely. When you look at the best player on a team, you also have to look at the one who's struggling. And you bring up the one who's struggling. You spend less time on the one who's already figured it all out. But if you're in a team, you're in a community, you're looking at who's struggling and how do we get them to some level of consistency in their lives or whatever. Otherwise, we're always going to have to play down to that denominator. Chris: Kelly, this has been a fascinating conversation. Thank you Really appreciated your thoughts and sharing those with our listeners. I want to turn it to a little bit more of a fun, lighter side before we wrap up. Excellent, what was your? You may have said this earlier, cause you mentioned something when you were a teenager. What was your first job? Kelly: My first job was working at an ice cream store called Farrell's. I grew up in the Pacific Northwest and every time it was somebody's birthday you had to bang out the drum. You had to slide it over your head and bang out the drum, and they get this big thing called the zoo, which was like 150 scoops of ice cream and you had to wear this horrifying outfit with one of those straw hats that never sits on my head Cause I'm a little pointed, I think, and I you learn very quickly and this is why I love anybody who's ever done food service and was successful in it and why I have an affinity for them. You learn very quickly how difficult it is to run restaurants on margin, but also nobody wanted to do that and had to do it every single time. So that was my first real paying job that I got to check. Chris: Gotcha, yeah, and I knew you weren't from Texas and grew up in the Northwest, but you've been here long enough to be able to answer this question. Do you prefer Tex-Mex or barbecue? Kelly: Well, that's a good question. That's hard to decide, that's hard to define. I probably eat Tex-Mex more often, but I prefer barbecue, okay. Chris: Unique answer. Kelly: Yeah, I like it. That's an and yes answer. That's an improv technique. Very politically motivated or correct answer I just don't go to barbecue as much, but if I really sat down and thought about it, I prefer it. I just don't, for whatever reason, don't get there, which seems weird. Chris: Very good. Well, kelly. Thanks again for taking the time. This has been a great conversation. I'm looking forward to getting this out on all the social media. I hope people will listen and learn more about what is going on in our homeless response system. Kelly: Oh well, thank you so much for having me. I mean, I would do anything for you. I think you're amazing, so appreciate your time this morning. All right, talk with you later. Special Guest: Kelly Young.

Al and Kelly talk about the story of Dave the Diver Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:03:12: What Has Kelly Been Up To 00:04:19: Tangent 1 - The Scots Language 00:11:53: What Has Al Been Up To 00:21:22: News 00:35:50: Tangent 2 - Rockstar North 00:44:55: Dave The Diver Upcoming DLCs 00:53:45: Kelly’s Mechanics Thoughts 01:02:31: Dave The Diver Story 01:16:01: Tangent 3 - Game Hyperfocus 01:18:44: Dave Story Conclusion 01:29:12: Outro Links Research Story “0.9” Update Sprittea “Moving & Grooving” Update Loddlenaut “Goddles” Update Outlanders “Wandering Star” DLC Rune Factory: Guardians of Azuma Trailer Dave the Diver Upcoming DLCs Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Al: Hello Divers, and welcome to another episode of The Harvest Season. (0:00:34) Al: My name is Al, and we are here today to talk about Cottagecore games. (0:00:36) Kelly: and my name is kelly (0:00:41) Kelly: whoo (0:00:42) Al: We’ve not come to a conclusion on whether David the Diver is a Cottagecore game or not. (0:00:45) Kelly: maybe it’s like a bungalow, like you know bungalows are the the the cottages of beach towns (0:00:50) Al: Well, the problem there, right, so if Cottagecore games are for lesbians, what are bungalow games (0:00:57) Al: for? (0:00:58) Al: games for them. (0:00:59) Kelly: non-binary people (0:01:01) Al: I’ll take it. (0:01:04) Al: All right, excellent. (0:01:04) Kelly: I don’t know! (0:01:07) Al: Fantastic. Well, OK, so I think it is a college school game, right? (0:01:11) Al: Because, yes, there are some, like, stakes and stuff, but there’s fewer stakes, I think, than, say, Stardew Valley. (0:01:18) Kelly: Yeah, and I would say also it’s like you still have like the mines in Stardew Valley? (0:01:23) Al: Exactly. Yeah, that’s what I’m meaning. The mines in Stardew Valley are definitely scarier (0:01:28) Al: than most in here. But you can’t ignore nighttime entirely if you want to. The only stuff that (0:01:28) Kelly: Yeah, I would say that the nighttime is the scary part. (0:01:39) Al: only spawns in the night are some fish, which you want if you want to collect the collection, (0:01:44) Al: and a few optional side quests. I don’t think any part of the story is required for you (0:01:49) Al: to go out at night? Or was there one, maybe? (0:01:50) Kelly: I think there was, unless I’m mistaken, I think there was one with the more eels. (0:01:53) Al: There was one. Yeah. (0:01:57) Kelly: It’s been a while. I played that part I think a year ago now so that’s (0:02:03) Kelly: been a while, but I think one part was required and then after that it was like (0:02:07) Kelly: you don’t have to do this again. (0:02:10) Al: So yeah, I think it counts. If Stardew counts this counts. (0:02:13) Kelly: Yeah, I think so. You have farms, you have little (0:02:18) Al: You do, you do. (0:02:18) Kelly: Fish tanks and chickens. (0:02:21) Al: Yeah, the chickens is the most un-feature-rich thing in the game. (0:02:27) Kelly: Yeah. (0:02:28) Al: Chickens exist and if you turn up you get an egg. Great, congrats. (0:02:32) Kelly: You can name them, but you can’t pet them. (0:02:36) Al: All right, cool. So we are here to talk about (0:02:40) Al: well, we’re here for the final episode of Dave the Diver Month. (0:02:44) Al: Two weeks late. (0:02:49) Al: And I’ve got Kelly along to talk about the story for Dave the Diver. (0:02:52) Kelly: Hey, um, I loved this game. I got it, I think the day it came out, and I played it until my fingers hurt. (0:03:01) Kelly: So, weirdo, oh, yeah, yeah. (0:03:03) Al: So hopefully we’ll have lots to talk about in the main topic then. (0:03:08) Al: Exciting. So before that, we obviously have some news. First of all, Kelly, what have you been (0:03:14) Kelly: I have been actually getting ready for a trip to Scotland. (0:03:21) Al: Woo! (0:03:21) Kelly: Woo! (0:03:22) Kelly: But besides that, I’ve been playing Day of the Diver to catch up on the DLCs, playing (0:03:29) Kelly: Solitaire because that is my brain-dead dissociation game, and I’ve actually started doing Dooling (0:03:38) Kelly: Go again, which has been interesting. (0:03:40) Al: In fact, what are you learning? (0:03:42) Kelly: I decided to try Japanese, ‘cause I– (0:03:44) Al: Okay. (0:03:44) Kelly: I’ve tried Spanish, I’ve done German, I’ve done Italian. (0:03:48) Al: So you’re not trying to learn any Scottish Gaelic, or I think Scots is on there as well. (0:03:52) Kelly: No. (0:03:56) Kelly: I didn’t even think about that, to be honest. (0:03:58) Kelly: Which would have been interesting, ‘cause I was just like, (0:04:00) Kelly: “Oh, let me try something that’s completely different than, you know, any of the, like, uh, Latin languages, or German language.” (0:04:09) Al: Germanic. No, it’s just Gallic. They don’t have Scots. I thought they had, I thought (0:04:10) Kelly: Yeah. (0:04:15) Al: I’d seen some where they have Scots, but they don’t. Is it? So, well, okay, so this is gonna (0:04:18) Kelly: Interesting. Can you speak, Scotts? (0:04:22) Al: be a whole tangent, but we’re going for it anyway. I’m just checking. Yeah, Google doesn’t (0:04:27) Al: have it either, it just has Gallic. They all call them Scots Gallic, which is technically (0:04:32) Al: not true, because Scots is a language and Gallic is a language. Gallic is a language (0:04:36) Kelly: Mm. (0:04:39) Al: longer than Scotland has existed. But anyway, that’s not neither here nor there. So I definitely (0:04:44) Al: can’t speak Gallic. I can speak some Scots, but a lot of the Scots that I know is not (0:04:51) Al: stuff that I knew was a different language. So when I was, a lot of people in Scotland (0:04:54) Kelly: Okay. (0:04:57) Al: grow up learning what some people refer to as Scottish English, which is like a weird (0:05:03) Al: amalgamation amalgamation of English and Scots. And so (0:05:08) Kelly: So kind of like Spanglish, like when people grow up in like, you know, like mixing Spanish and English words in the theme. (0:05:09) Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it’s when you start to like encounter people outside, you (0:05:20) Al: realise, oh wait, this word that I’ve been using is a word that is not English, right? (0:05:26) Al: And to a lot of people, they would just think it’s, oh, it’s just a dialect word, right? (0:05:30) Al: But it’s from a different language. We just use it not in… So I would never use an entire (0:05:36) Al: sentence in Scots because that’s just not how I grew up. (0:05:39) Al: But a lot of the words that I would use, obviously not on the podcast, not when I’m (0:05:46) Al: working because I don’t work with many Scottish people, but like in my day-to-day life, there (0:05:51) Al: are a lot of words that I would use that would be Scots. Like for example, in the classic (0:05:56) Al: Scottish way, I’m going to use a weather word, a word about the weather. So the weather here (0:06:02) Al: today is drich, and that is a Scots word that means, it basically means overcast, right? (0:06:09) Al: Like it’s cloudy, it’s just not nice, it’s like it’s not sunny, but it’s not like pouring down (0:06:14) Al: with rain, it’s just, it’s drich. So that is an example of a Scots word that I would use (0:06:16) Kelly: okay (0:06:20) Al: most days because of the weather. It does, yeah, it’s a d, drich. (0:06:21) Kelly: is that does it start with a D or a B so so is it kind of like it almost reminds (0:06:28) Kelly: me of like dreary you know what I mean in this sense and I would kind of use (0:06:29) Al: Yeah, it’s, yeah, yeah, it’s kind of, it definitely, yeah, I would say, yeah, they’re almost synonyms. (0:06:33) Kelly: that word to (0:06:39) Al: I would say that drich, I think, can be used in other contexts, whereas drich entirely would be (0:06:42) Kelly: Outside of weather. Yeah. (0:06:45) Al: about the weather. So like you would talk about, oh, that’s a drichy meeting, or people were drich, (0:06:46) Kelly: No, that totally makes sense. Is- so he’s like… (0:06:51) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:06:52) Al: or whatever, but you couldn’t say something else with drich other than the weather. So yeah, that, (0:06:56) Kelly: Okay, that makes sense. That’s so interesting. Is… (0:06:59) Kelly: like, I’m gonna totally butcher this, but like, (0:07:03) Kelly: can I? Like, how do you say that? C-A-N-N-A-E? Is that considered Scots? (0:07:10) Al: Oh canny. Yeah, that would be another. So this is where we get into some technicalities of (0:07:10) Kelly: Yes. Yes. Yes. (0:07:17) Al: where English comes from. So modern English is itself, it comes from not just old English, (0:07:28) Al: but it also comes from old Scots, and old is, you know, auld lang syne, that’s A-U-L-D, (0:07:32) Kelly: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. (0:07:35) Al: that’s Scots for old. And so a lot of English words… (0:07:40) Al: Scots are, you know, very similar to Scots words because, you know, both languages come (0:07:45) Al: from both old languages, Old English and Old Scots. (0:07:47) Kelly: Okay (0:07:48) Kelly: So it’s kind of like it’s like Portuguese and Spanish and like German and like Dutch kind of where it’s like you can (0:07:49) Al: Yeah, yeah. A very… exactly. Yeah, and you wouldn’t know every word and these sorts of (0:07:55) Kelly: Understand them, but they’re not exactly the same (0:08:00) Al: things, but some words you could maybe guess at, like “old”. Most people would be able (0:08:05) Al: to guess what that means, stuff like that. Different words. (0:08:06) Kelly: Mm-hmm. Yeah, in the context. (0:08:10) Al: Clearly different language, but, you know, you can kind of guess what it means because (0:08:14) Al: they’re similar languages, absolutely. But, like, one example of the Old English/Old Scots (0:08:19) Al: thing is, so you’ve got fox, the animal, and you know what the female fox is called? So (0:08:26) Kelly: I feel like I do, but not right now. (0:08:28) Al: it’s a vixen. So fox with an F and vixen with a V. I can never remember which one it is, (0:08:36) Al: in one of Old Scots and Old English. It’s Fox and Fixing. (0:08:40) Al: They can, they can, they can. The other interesting thing is that there’s also a lost letter from (0:08:50) Kelly: and v and f kind of can sound the same too, you know, yeah. (0:08:59) Al: Scots that is not used anymore thanks to the anglification of keyboards. So when (0:09:10) Al: typewriters started becoming a thing, they were obviously, they used the standard QWERTY (0:09:14) Al: layout that we’re using now. And the letter is called a yod, and it kind of looks like (0:09:20) Al: a cross between a z and a y. And it has a sound like a y sound. It’s kind of like a (0:09:22) Kelly: Okay. (0:09:24) Kelly: Okay. (0:09:26) Kelly: Okay. (0:09:29) Al: y, but it’s not quite the same. And I can give you an example of a word that this would (0:09:33) Al: be used in. Do you know the company that does all the logistics at airports? (0:09:40) Al: And they’re called Menzies, do you know them? M-E-N-C-I-E-S. So they do a lot of, like they (0:09:47) Al: are a huge worldwide company that do logistics at airports. So if you’re at an airport and (0:09:52) Al: you look out on airside and you see, you know, people with their high vis on, in most airports (0:09:59) Al: in the West, they will be Menzies employees. Which is actually fun fact, that company started (0:10:07) Al: out as a paper shop in Scotland. (0:10:10) Al: But that zed is not actually originally a zed, it was actually a yod. (0:10:10) Kelly: Oh, that’s cool. (0:10:18) Kelly: Okay. (0:10:19) Al: And so the word ‘menzies’ shouldn’t actually be said menzies, it said ‘mingies’. (0:10:25) Al: Yeah, and so there’s a lot of words, a lot of places in Scotland that you might notice this (0:10:30) Al: when you’re over here, a lot of places in Scotland that have zeds in their name in the middle, (0:10:34) Al: and it’s not actually a zed, it’s a yod. So there’s a place in near Glasgow, (0:10:40) Al: that’s called Calane, and that’s C-U-L-Z-E-A-N, but of course that zed was a yod, (0:10:47) Al: which is why it’s Calane, not Cal-Zane. (0:10:50) Kelly: Okay, so you guys all just acknowledge that it should be pronounced (0:10:56) Al: We just ignore the fact that it’s a zed, because that’s what you learn. (0:10:59) Kelly: Yeah (0:10:59) Al: I didn’t know for a long time that it wasn’t originally a zed. (0:11:03) Kelly: Okay (0:11:04) Al: But yeah, we don’t pronounce it like that. (0:11:06) Kelly: Okay, sorry to derail (0:11:07) Al: But yeah, so you will. (0:11:10) Al: So it’s fine, I’ll put this in specifically as a section on the Scots (0:11:15) Al: language for some reason. But yeah, so you might hear some people, (0:11:18) Al: if you ever see the paper shop that still does exist, Menzies, (0:11:21) Al: some people will call it Menzies, and some people call it Menzies, (0:11:25) Kelly: Oh, very interesting, that’s pretty cool. (0:11:25) Al: because it depends on who you are. (0:11:28) Al: There used to be a politician in Scotland calls Menzies Campbell, (0:11:30) Al: and nobody would ever call him Menzies Campbell, (0:11:32) Al: despite the fact that it’s spelled the exact same way. (0:11:34) Kelly: That was a fun fact. (0:11:35) Al: But they still call the paper shop Menzies for some reason. (0:11:38) Al: So Ming is fun fact. (0:11:40) Al: There you go. That’s your Scott’s language history on the Cottagecore podcast, (0:11:46) Al: The Harvest Season. (0:11:48) Kelly: I’m just really good at derailing the podcast, what can I say. (0:11:52) Al: Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with that. (0:11:55) Kelly: What have you been up to, Al, besides history lessons? (0:11:56) Al: What have I been up to? (0:12:00) Al: I have been playing, well kind of playing, Harvest Moon, Home Sweet Home, and Coraline 1.1. (0:12:10) Al: I quite often, if I’m like trying to play a game for a podcast and I’ve not quite got (0:12:14) Al: into it yet, I will feel guilty about that and not play any other games. (0:12:22) Al: So I have played about two in-game days of Harvest Moon Home Sweet Home. (0:12:28) Kelly: That’s it! (0:12:28) Al: That’s it. (0:12:29) Al: So we’ll see. (0:12:30) Al: Hopefully I’ll manage to play enough before the podcast that I’m recording in a week. (0:12:36) Kelly: It’s crunch time! (0:12:38) Al: - It’s crunch time. (0:12:40) Al: So we’ll see. (0:12:40) Al: The annoying thing I also found out is that, (0:12:42) Al: so it’s, I don’t know if you’re aware of this game, Kelly, (0:12:45) Al: but it is a mobile game. (0:12:48) Al: So it’s on Android and iOS. (0:12:50) Kelly: the harvest moon one (0:12:51) Al: The new Harvest Moon game, yeah. (0:12:53) Al: And they haven’t enabled cloud safe for it. (0:13:00) Al: So I installed and started playing it on my 13 inch iPad. (0:13:00) Kelly: Oh. (0:13:05) Al: And that is now the only device I can play this game on. (0:13:05) Kelly: Oh. (0:13:09) Kelly: That’s… that’s so… wrong. (0:13:10) Al: I just ate is bizarre, because a special. (0:13:16) Kelly: Especially on like a harv– like, I’m assuming the Harvest Moon game, you know, it has a lot going on. (0:13:21) Al: Yep, you should be here. (0:13:21) Kelly: You’re dedicating a good amount of time to playing it. (0:13:25) Kelly: Yeah, like, you have items, you have things that you’re building up, like, why would– (0:13:30) Kelly: Like, don’t most of these games have that built in by now? (0:13:34) Al: Yeah. Yeah. And it’s not even you don’t even need to do much. You just need to say yes, you can do it. (0:13:44) Kelly: Yeah, and especially with I feel like I’m sure they’re different games, but like just having like knowing that animal (0:13:52) Kelly: crossing (0:13:53) Kelly: Is whatever Pacicapia is like shutting down their app? (0:13:54) Al: Bocky camp (0:13:57) Al: Yeah (0:13:58) Kelly: Wouldn’t you kind of want to make sure that your app is there to like fill the void? (0:14:02) Kelly: - I enjoyed. (0:14:03) Al: Anyway, so that’s that that’s another reason why I’ve not played a lot of it yet is because I can only play it on one (0:14:08) Al: Device and it’s the 13 inch iPad which I like as a device, but it’s not the best for a mobile games, obviously (0:14:15) Kelly: Is it annoying to like, hold for… Is that what the issue is or is it? (0:14:19) Al: That’s part that’s part of the issue although I do have it on a (0:14:22) Al: I stand at my desk, so I (0:14:24) Kelly: Mm. (0:14:24) Al: don’t have to hold it when I’m at my desk, but that means that realistically the only (0:14:27) Al: time I’m playing this game is when I’m working. Which is not a great way to play a game, right? (0:14:29) Kelly: Yeah. (0:14:35) Al: But anyway, whatever. It’s especially annoying because they haven’t disabled playing it on (0:14:39) Al: Macs as well, so now you can play iPad and iPhone stuff on Macs, which is great. It’s (0:14:46) Al: a great feature, but it means that I’ve installed the game on my Mac, but I’d have to start (0:14:52) Al: and you saved to play it there. (0:14:54) Al: Like I was like, this is great because there are like so many ways for me to play this. (0:14:59) Al: I can play it on my iPad during work. (0:15:00) Al: I can play it on my Mac when I’m sitting in front of the TV. (0:15:04) Al: I can play it on my iPad mini when I’m in bed and I’m like, nope, you get one of those. (0:15:09) Kelly: Yeah jokes on you. That’s annoying. (0:15:10) Al: One of those. (0:15:11) Al: Yeah, I should have just gone with the Android version, but the problem is the Android version (0:15:16) Al: crashed when it first came out. (0:15:18) Al: So I couldn’t play it for, in fact, I don’t think it’s, I think it’s still not working (0:15:18) Kelly: So they kind of, they, they dug you into a little corner. (0:15:29) Al: So, I’ve done a little bit of Carlisle in 1.1 as well, because I hadn’t been playing (0:15:34) Al: that yet, so that’s that, and I have gotten very much back into Marvel Snap. (0:15:40) Kelly: Whoa, I haven’t heard that name in a while. (0:15:42) Al: Yeah, so it was, oh they make, they make loads of real decisions, but they’re quite good (0:15:46) Kelly: Did they, like, fix the game? (0:15:47) Kelly: Because I know they were having… they made some kind of weird decisions last winter. (0:15:54) Kelly: Okay. (0:15:54) Al: at fixing these things quickly, like you get multiple changes a week. (0:15:56) Kelly: Okay. (0:15:58) Kelly: Okay. (0:15:59) Al: So, if there’s something that’s completely killing the game, they kill that really quickly. (0:16:04) Al: They’re pretty good at that. (0:16:06) Al: No, we’re at the end of a season, and the next season has like a new type of ability, (0:16:12) Al: which is the first time they’ve done that since launch, so that’s exciting. (0:16:15) Al: And a lot of new Spider People cards, which is also cool. (0:16:21) Al: I do like some Spider People. (0:16:23) Kelly: when did they release marvel snap? was it like around this time last year? (0:16:24) Al: But it’s only a year, I don’t know. (0:16:29) Kelly: right? is it older than that? (0:16:29) Al: It can’t only be a year, really. (0:16:32) Al: No, two years, October 22. (0:16:33) Kelly: okay okay. I didn’t think it was only a year old but I was like I don’t I don’t keep up with that (0:16:39) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:16:40) Kelly: game so there’s also that. there just happened to be a streamer I was watching who was like obsessed (0:16:46) Kelly: with it for a while. (0:16:47) Al: I really love it, because it’s, I like card games, but one, they’re so hard to keep up (0:16:55) Al: with all the cards, right? (0:16:57) Al: And the good thing about Marvel Snap is so many. (0:17:00) Al: There’s many different types of playing are viable. (0:17:02) Kelly: So it’s not like you get one or two meta that are like (0:17:06) Al: Exactly, exactly. (0:17:06) Al: There’s like, you know, Destroy decks are really good just now. (0:17:10) Al: Move decks are pretty good just now. (0:17:12) Al: There’s also like a couple of other types of decks that you can use based on multiple cards. (0:17:18) Al: Like I have played four different decks and won with them over the last two days. (0:17:23) Al: So it’s, yeah, it’s pretty good. (0:17:25) Al: Discard decks are still quite good as well. (0:17:27) Al: Like there’s lots that’s working just now. (0:17:30) Al: And yet there are a few cards that if you don’t get them, you’re unlikely to get up to like (0:17:35) Al: level 100, rank 100. But I’m unlikely to get there anyway. And it’s still fun. Like it takes a long (0:17:41) Al: time to build up the ranks anyway. So, you know, it takes it only now are my rank 60 now. (0:17:49) Al: And, you know, granted it’s only been, I’ve only been playing for two weeks of this season, (0:17:57) Al: which is about half of it, but… (0:18:00) Al: It’s like, I… Yeah, I think it would have been unlikely for me to get to 100 anyway, but… (0:18:06) Al: So yeah, and also the actual matches are simpler than most card games. (0:18:11) Kelly: Okay. (0:18:12) Al: So you’ve only got a few things to think about while still having a lot of different strategies. (0:18:17) Al: And obviously they’re fast. (0:18:20) Al: You know, you can get a match and done in a cut in, you know, the longest matches take five. (0:18:20) Kelly: Yeah, no, it seems like, you know, I I’m not a big Marvel person, but it seems like a fun game with a lot of creativity and like options. (0:18:34) Kelly: And the fact that they’re still actively updating it, I think says a lot. (0:18:34) Al: Yeah. Yeah. It’s obviously making money. Um, so yeah, I mean, basically the reason why (0:18:42) Kelly: Yeah, that too. (0:18:46) Al: I’m back into it is because, um, Hannah, uh, from the ISE slack, um, she walk got, she (0:18:54) Al: came over and was like, Oh, I’m interested in this because I hear that it’s quite similar (0:18:58) Al: to what the new Pokemon trading card app will be like. So I want to see how this works before (0:19:02) Kelly: Oh interesting, smart of Pokemon. (0:19:04) Al: to see how similar it is and compare it to that. And so when she said that, well, yeah, (0:19:12) Al: exactly. It will be interesting to see how much it actually is because we don’t know much details (0:19:16) Al: about how the battles will work. Um, but it will be very clever if, if it is, if it works out well. (0:19:22) Al: Um, but because she came through and did that, I was like, Oh, now I really want to play (0:19:28) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:19:28) Al: and I haven’t stopped playing since. So that was two weeks ago. (0:19:33) Kelly: I… I trust me. I understand. I understand. (0:19:37) Kelly: I’m sure you’ll get out eventually. (0:19:39) Al: Yeah, this is my problem, is I don’t play games casually, I play games until I stop (0:19:40) Kelly: You’ll be free. (0:19:46) Al: playing them, and it is my life until I stop playing them, and then I never think about (0:19:52) Kelly: Yeah, literally, I completely understand. (0:19:55) Kelly: That’s why I’m not allowed to play stuff like Cafe Mix anymore. (0:20:01) Kelly: I like… it was a phone game, you know? (0:20:05) Kelly: But it was a phone game that, uh… (0:20:07) Kelly: Once I started playing events, I got really hooked, (0:20:10) Kelly: and I was good at the events, and I kept winning events, (0:20:12) Kelly: and then I would get money out of it. (0:20:12) Al: Yeah, yeah, my (0:20:14) Kelly: And it was just like, it was like, you know, daily. (0:20:16) Kelly: It was a daily thing where I’d go in, I’d play five games, I’d do this, (0:20:20) Kelly: and then the events. (0:20:22) Kelly: were like, “You have to play all weekend, otherwise you won’t win,” and I’d be like, “Well, I have to win.” (0:20:27) Kelly: Um… (0:20:28) Kelly: So now I’m just not allowed to play that game. (0:20:30) Kelly: But I do that with all games, that’s why I played Day of the Diver until my fingers hurt, you know? (0:20:33) Kelly: That’s, uh… (0:20:34) Al: Yeah, yeah, I just I never got into cafe mix because I just didn’t like the gameplay like it felt too imprecise (0:20:35) Kelly: That’s what I do. (0:20:39) Kelly: Yeah. (0:20:41) Kelly: It’s… it is. (0:20:43) Kelly: It’s very sloppy. (0:20:44) Kelly: Which I think can work in your favor if you know how to use it correctly. (0:20:50) Al: Yeah, probably, but I didn’t want to. I didn’t want to learn. You know, it’s like, I loved like (0:20:52) Kelly: Yeah, no, that’s fair, that’s fair. (0:20:56) Al: shuffle, Pokemon shuffle, which is not, I know it’s not the same game, but it’s, it’s like similar (0:21:01) Kelly: It’s very similar, yeah. (0:21:01) Al: ideas in some ways. But I much preferred that because it was very clear, like, it’s precise, (0:21:07) Al: right? This place goes to that piece and that’s it. Whereas with Cafe May, it’s like, oh, you’re (0:21:11) Al: kind of like circling. And it’s like, I didn’t. (0:21:14) Kelly: Yeah, no, it’s it’s definitely very different in actual gameplay (0:21:20) Al: Cool. So that’s what we’ve been up to and a (0:21:22) Kelly: Yeah (0:21:24) Al: tangent on the Scottish language. (0:21:27) Al: Now we’re going to talk about some news, some game news. (0:21:30) Al: First of all, we have the zero point nine update of Research Story is out now. (0:21:35) Al: So this includes a new NPC, (0:21:39) Al: lots of extra content for the NPCs, a cooking system and your classic on a daily (0:21:47) Al: Cottagecore game, the daily summary, when you (0:21:50) Al: go to sleep, gives you everything that you’ve done in that game. (0:21:50) Kelly: I laugh, but honestly I need things like those. (0:21:55) Al: Well, that’s the thing. And it’s like you have, like, especially in farming games where (0:21:56) Kelly: Like when games don’t have that, sometimes I’m like, “hmm, what was I doing? (0:22:05) Al: you are selling a bunch of stuff on a daily basis, it’s good to know one, how much you (0:22:06) Kelly: Mmhmm. (0:22:09) Al: actually sold, and two, how that break broke down. You know, that was a key point of Stardew (0:22:11) Kelly: Yeah. (0:22:17) Al: is trying to figure out what was the most efficient stuff. (0:22:20) Al: This is really nice in that it’s building up into other things as well, so it’s like, (0:22:26) Al: “Oh, here are the people you talk to, and here’s the XP you gained,” and that sort of stuff. (0:22:32) Kelly: Yeah, no, it definitely does help, and I think also with farming games it’s so easy to get sidetracked on things. (0:22:38) Kelly: So it’s, like, good to see at the end of the day, like, “Oh, I actually did not sell as much stuff that I wanted to,” (0:22:44) Kelly: or “Didn’t talk to the right amount of people,” or, you know, “It’s two days until I have to buy something that’s really expensive, I better start selling a bunch.” (0:22:53) Al: They have also released their roadmap to 1.0, so they’re getting close. They have two more updates (0:22:59) Al: before the 1.0. That is 0.10 should be coming out at the end of September. That is player (0:23:06) Al: customization. 0.11 should be coming out at the end of the year, and that is orange hearts and (0:23:14) Al: shimmers. The orange heart events that will be for NPCs. And I don’t know what shimmers means. (0:23:20) Al: Oh, shiny creatures right in front of me. (0:23:23) Al: I always got to translate into Pokemon. (0:23:27) Kelly: Translate, yeah. (0:23:31) Al: And then the 1.0 will be coming out in Q1 next year. (0:23:36) Al: So if you’ve been looking for 1.0 to finally get into this game, (0:23:40) Al: it’ll be next year, be warned. (0:23:41) Kelly: Have you played the, um, is there an Early Access? (0:23:45) Al: Yeah, that’s what this is. (0:23:46) Al: I haven’t played it. (0:23:47) Al: I know that Cody has played it, and I think Bev played it as well. (0:23:50) Al: and they had a chat about it on one of the episodes. (0:23:53) Al: And they both really liked it. So, I don’t know. (0:23:55) Kelly: It looks cute. I like the note about married life events because I feel like a lot of these games kind of end events once you marry your characters of choice. So that’s nice. (0:24:02) Al: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, not looking at anyone in particular, Coral Island. (0:24:11) Al: Uh, Spirity have also got an update out now. The moving and grooving update, um, was animations. (0:24:20) Al: Hahaha. Hmm. Yeah, did you play it? (0:24:22) Kelly: This game is so upsetting to me because I really wanted to like it so bad. (0:24:27) Kelly: So like, seeing this update, it’s like, these look so funny, and like, they look so silly but it’s like, I’m not gonna go back to play like this. (0:24:34) Al: This is the problem is like you can like everything about a game, but if you don’t actually enjoy the core loop of the game (0:24:40) Al: It doesn’t really matter (0:24:40) Kelly: Mm-hmm (0:24:42) Kelly: Yeah, and I gave it I think I put like 30 hours in or something so I like I gave it a good (0:24:45) Al: Oh, wow, that’s more than I put in I may be I may be put in ten hours (0:24:48) Kelly: Try (0:24:51) Kelly: I wanted to like it so bad, but what can you do? (0:24:53) Al: Yeah (0:24:54) Al: Yeah, I wonder how much of it is just like a personal preference thing, right? Like some people just don’t like certain times of games (0:25:00) Kelly: Yeah (0:25:02) Kelly: I (0:25:03) Kelly: Mean, I don’t know cuz I love games like this. Typically. I wish I could I play this like back in (0:25:10) Kelly: fall so I can’t remember exactly what it was, but I know some things were just like (0:25:15) Kelly: kind of really repetitive in like a (0:25:19) Al: I think that the repetitive bit is probably my problem, is that the bathhouse you did upgrade, (0:25:27) Al: but it didn’t really feel like you were progressing. Whereas with farming games, (0:25:33) Al: you go from like a two by two square that you’ve made of turnips to thousands of crops over your (0:25:41) Al: farm, and tens of animals giving you millions every season. And it didn’t feel like there was (0:25:49) Al: level of progression to aim for. And that was what I think really lost me about it. (0:25:56) Kelly: Yeah, I agree because I updated like I think as much as I possibly could in the bath house, too (0:26:03) Al: but it’s like oh now I have three baths it’s like oh is there right okay (0:26:06) Kelly: Yeah, there’s actually a second floor yeah, but it doesn’t add that much (0:26:15) Al: yeah anyway but if you’ve if you enjoyed the game there’s more updates to it and you know (0:26:17) Kelly: But yeah (0:26:21) Al: as you say these animations are pretty goofy and fun and add some more (0:26:24) Kelly: Yeah, they look so silly and cute, you know. (0:26:26) Al: they add some more character to the npc’s next we have a new update for (0:26:33) Al: Laudelnot coming out on the 19th of September and oh boy do I hate the names (0:26:38) Al: that they give these updates this one is the Goddles update what’s a Goddle you might say (0:26:45) Al: that’s a good question this includes a new secret cave biome that houses three mysterious Goddles (0:26:52) Al: was this cavern forgotten by guppy what ancient abilities do these Goddles have (0:26:59) Al: I’m still not quite sure what I got all this is it the little (0:27:03) Al: like tree looking thing in this image, maybe. (0:27:06) Kelly: I don’t know. I think it’s cute that it’s like, oh, plant these to prevent pollination, uh, pollution, but you know, still it’s like, yeah, to your point, like, what is this made-up word? (0:27:20) Al: Yeah, I think this might be one of those updates that if you have played the game, which I (0:27:26) Al: haven’t yet, that you might be more interested in it. Yeah, I want to play this game at some (0:27:34) Kelly: It looks cute. I like whatever this aesthetic is called. I can’t think right now. (0:27:42) Al: Yes, I can’t remember either. They’ve all got fancy names. (0:27:44) Kelly: Yeah, but I like this game design. I think that (0:27:48) Kelly: style of animation is very cute and very fun for a little underwater game. Yeah. (0:27:51) Al: It works, it works, yeah it works well especially when all your creatures are axolotls, which (0:27:58) Kelly: Yes. (0:28:00) Al: the goofier an axolotl is, the cuter it is. (0:28:04) Kelly: That is true. That is, it is unbeatably cute looking. (0:28:10) Al: Next we have a new DLC for Outlanders, this is the Wandering Stars DLC, and I mean if (0:28:18) Al: you’ve played Outlanders you can look at it, I don’t really think we need to go into the (0:28:21) Al: details of this. (0:28:24) Al: Outlanders is a city builder game, so I’ll probably not play it, because every time I (0:28:29) Al: try and enjoy a city builder I just get frustrated with them, it’s not my kind of game. (0:28:34) Kelly: I get too into city builder kind of games and then it’s also really not enjoyable for me and like actually just stressful, so yeah. (0:28:42) Al: I think part of my problem, so I used to love City Builders, I was obsessed with SimCity2 (0:28:49) Al: so much, but I think part of the problem is that they never work well with controllers. (0:28:58) Al: They’re just not fun to play unless you have a mouse and keyboard, and that’s not how I (0:29:03) Al: game anymore in my life. (0:29:04) Kelly: It’s so funny because I’ve (0:29:04) Al: I am past the point. (0:29:07) Kelly: I’ve flipped from like being a controller only person to (0:29:13) Kelly: playing a lot of games mouse and keyboard now with like an occasional controller and (0:29:18) Kelly: It’s true a lot of these games are so different when you have the option to mouse and keyboard them (0:29:24) Kelly: Like there’s some games where it just makes such a big difference (0:29:26) Al: Yeah. Yeah. I just like, the way that I game nowadays is sitting on my sofa, watching TV (0:29:33) Al: with Rona, because that’s the time we get together and that’s how we like to spend our (0:29:34) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:29:38) Al: time together. So I’m not going to go, Oh, sorry, Rona. I’m going to go into the office (0:29:41) Al: and play games on my computer. Like, I’m just not going to do that. So, um, but I used to (0:29:47) Al: like when I was a student or whatever, I would, you know, be up till two, three. (0:29:56) Kelly: It’s tough (0:29:57) Al: Yeah. Finally, we have an update on what was called Runefactory Project Dragon and is now (0:29:59) Kelly: The sacrifices (0:30:10) Al: called Runefactory Guardians of Azuma. (0:30:14) Kelly: that’s a kind of oh wait so i’m sorry to cut you off but was it called rune factory project dragon (0:30:21) Al: Yes. So I don’t know if that was ever meant to be the title, because when you see project you (0:30:21) Kelly: and they changed that’s interesting (0:30:28) Al: quite often think that’s not the final title. So I suspect it was like we haven’t thought up a name, (0:30:30) Kelly: Yeah. (0:30:32) Kelly: Yeah. (0:30:35) Al: it’s about dragons, call it project dragon. But anyway, now they’ve got given an actual name, (0:30:43) Al: and they’ve said it’s coming out spring next year, and we have a trailer. So the interesting, (0:30:50) Al: Have you ever have you played (0:30:51) Al: any Renfactory games? (0:30:52) Kelly: No. I never got onto that bandwagon. I don’t know how I missed it. I think I was (0:30:53) Al: Okay, so (0:30:58) Kelly: just too dedicated to The Sims at that point in my life. (0:31:02) Al: fair enough. I mean, we’ve all been through our Sims phase. Again, interestingly, spent (0:31:09) Al: a lot of time playing Sims and Sims 2 specifically, and then not really since then. Probably for (0:31:14) Kelly: That’s fair. (0:31:15) Al: the same reason that they don’t really work very well with controllers. (0:31:17) Kelly: Oh no, they’re awful. Those games are the games that made me realize that not all games can be played the same way. (0:31:24) Al: Yeah, yeah. Like, I think it’s good that they add support for it because some people (0:31:29) Al: will have no other option and they would rather go through the pain and do it anyway. But (0:31:36) Al: anyway, so the interesting thing about this game is it says that it is a boldly reimagined (0:31:44) Al: gameplay. And the interesting thing is I watch this trailer and I’m not sure what the (0:31:49) Al: boldly reimagined gameplay is because previous Rune Factories are at a (0:31:54) Al: level. It’s basically Harvest Moon, but also combat. And this is Harvest Moon, but also combat. (0:32:04) Al: So, you know, you still have all the exact same farming stuff and then you go off and you fight (0:32:13) Al: creatures. Now granted, it does seem to be that some of the combat is dance-based rather than (0:32:21) Al: with a sword, but I… (0:32:22) Kelly: Interesting. So it’s like a rhythm? (0:32:24) Al: I don’t think it is rhythm-based, so this is the thing. I think it is just you press a button (0:32:31) Al: and you do a dance move, which isn’t fundamentally different than you press a button and you hit (0:32:37) Al: something with a sword. So… I don’t know. I don’t know the specifics of that. Well, this is the thing, (0:32:38) Kelly: So it’s still tur- like, it’s still… (0:32:43) Kelly: Are you gonna, like, start breakdancing at enemies? (0:32:47) Al: because the dancing… this is the weird bit. The dancing just seems to give you weapons that you (0:32:51) Al: you hit the enemies with. (0:32:54) Kelly: Are you dancing to the gods to, like, ask for a weapon? (0:32:54) Al: I just, Kelly, I have no idea. (0:33:00) Al: They’ve not shown any real gameplay. (0:33:03) Al: I guess my point is, I don’t know what the new part of this is. (0:33:07) Al: It just looks to me like the next Rune Factory. (0:33:10) Al: And there are some changes to it, and it’s a different story. (0:33:13) Al: And that’s all great, and people will love that. (0:33:15) Al: But like, why are you pretending that it’s something fundamentally different when it’s clearly not? (0:33:21) Kelly: Have there there’s been like a quite a few ruin factories, right? (0:33:24) Al: We’ve had five so far. (0:33:25) Kelly: And maybe they’re just lying to forget it I don’t know (0:33:31) Al: I mean, one person’s boldly reimagined is another one’s iterative change, right? (0:33:36) Kelly: Yeah, this seems like a pretty far reach though based on what you’ve said (0:33:42) Al: It does. (0:33:43) Al: This just, it feels like Rune Factory 5, but with some advances, which is fine. (0:33:48) Kelly: Maybe they’re… maybe they’re hiding it. (0:33:49) Al: I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, but why would you do that? (0:33:50) Kelly: Maybe they’re hiding the… (0:33:54) Al: It even says, “Restore your lost memories.” (0:33:56) Al: You still have Amnesia, like in every single Rune Factory game. (0:33:59) Kelly: Oh it’s one of those games, okay I see. (0:34:05) Al: This game. (0:34:06) Al: I don’t know if I can, I don’t know if I can go through playing another Rune Factory game. (0:34:06) Kelly: I don’t know. (0:34:10) Kelly: Have you played all of them? (0:34:11) Al: No, I have not. (0:34:12) Al: I have played just four and five, but I feel like that’s enough for me. (0:34:20) Al: I’m not a fan of the combat in these games. (0:34:23) Kelly: Okay, is it turn-based or is it like? (0:34:24) Al: No, it’s action based. (0:34:27) Al: Like real-time, whatever you want to call it, real-time combat. (0:34:31) Al: It’s just, I never feel like it’s responsive enough for me to feel like it’s enjoyable. (0:34:34) Kelly: Okay. (0:34:38) Al: It feels more like hack and slash rather than something like, I don’t know, Breath of the Wild, (0:34:45) Al: where you can have like precise combat with dodging and what’s the other one where you (0:34:52) Al: hit at the right parry, that’s the right one. (0:34:54) Al: So, I don’t know. I say that I don’t want to play it, but I’ll probably play it. We’ll (0:35:00) Al: see. We now have a trailer for it, so if you’re interested, go watch it. We’ve not heard anything (0:35:08) Al: else about Rune Factory 6, which fun fact Kelly, they announced at the exact same time (0:35:12) Al: they announced this game. No, this isn’t 6. This is… Yeah, but this is the thing. It’s (0:35:13) Kelly: Oh, this isn’t six. This is a side project. (0:35:20) Al: It’s not though. (0:35:21) Al: It’s not. (0:35:22) Al: It’s just the next. (0:35:24) Al: It will be interesting to see how long our Silkkox song is, and we can (0:35:26) Kelly: So, when does six come out? (0:35:30) Kelly: That’s… that’s… (0:35:35) Kelly: But this one seems to be coming out pretty quick. (0:35:40) Kelly: That’s… that’s not too bad when your other ones take five years. (0:35:46) Kelly: Yeah, that’s my… that’s my gauge for everything. (0:35:55) Al: to this is half a Silkkox song or whatever. (0:35:58) Kelly: » Well, I think the psychos have run out of other games, or (0:36:02) Kelly: they’re starting to run out of other games to compare it to. (0:36:06) Al: Yeah, I think GTA6 is the only other one that feels like that has been longer. (0:36:08) Kelly: Yeah, [LAUGH] yeah, and that’s just a meme in itself. (0:36:12) Al: Yeah. Yeah. Yes, GTA6 is not coming out next year, no matter how much they say it is, it’s (0:36:13) Kelly: So the two meme games, we’re just [BLANK_AUDIO] (0:36:21) Al: not coming out next year. It is a, like, because I don’t know if they actually announced that (0:36:26) Al: it was coming out in 2025 or something, but be- (0:36:29) Kelly: No, ‘cause there was that whole meme just going around of like, “We got this before (0:36:34) Kelly: GTA VI.” (0:36:35) Kelly: Oh, so end of next year. (0:36:35) Al: Yeah, so the announcement it was going to come out in Q4 2025, which late 20… Yeah, (0:36:42) Kelly: That’s never gonna happen. (0:36:43) Al: that means it’s coming out 2026. It was hilarious because they announced it in December last (0:36:44) Kelly: Yeah. (0:36:50) Al: year. So it was like, “Oh, they’re going to announce the new game. Great.” And then it (0:36:53) Al: came out and it was like, “Oh, wow, that’s exciting.” And then at the end it was like, (0:36:56) Al: late 2025. You’re like, “Really? You’re announcing it two years before you’re currently planning (0:37:02) Al: on it coming out. (0:37:04) Kelly: It’s just I went into a little bit of a spiral recently because of GTA 6 and that whole timeline (0:37:11) Kelly: because I was like, wow, it has been, I lived at my parents house when GTA 5 came out. (0:37:12) Al: Yeah. It’s, it’s basically my entire career. So I, so (0:37:19) Kelly: I was in college. (0:37:24) Kelly: Literally I was so excited because the weekend it dropped, my parents were away and I set (0:37:29) Kelly: up the big screen TV in the living room, and moved like the comfy (0:37:32) Al: Yeah. (0:37:32) Al: Thank you so much for watching. (0:37:34) Kelly: you know armchair to the center of the living room and sat there, and played GTA 5 on the big screen TV and (0:37:34) Al: If you enjoyed this video, please like and subscribe. (0:37:36) Al: If you want to see more videos like this, please like and subscribe. (0:37:42) Kelly: That’s how long it’s been (0:37:44) Al: It’s funny, so it came out on the 17th of September 2013, I got my first job outside (0:37:48) Kelly: No literally like so literally this is (0:37:53) Al: of uni on the 8th of August 2013. So just over a month before GTA 5 came out, I started (0:38:01) Al: my career. Since then, I’ve changed job like five times. I have had two children, I have (0:38:07) Al: bought two different houses, not at the same time, I’m not a crazy person. (0:38:14) Al: I was technically married before that, but only by two months. So like my entire career. (0:38:21) Al: I remember explicitly that it came out around that time because my first job, their office (0:38:28) Al: was right next to the Rockstar offices in Edinburgh. And so they had this massive, four-storey (0:38:30) Kelly: Uh, okay. (0:38:35) Al: poster on the office building that I walked past every single day for like a month before (0:38:42) Kelly: it’s it’s crazy it’s it’s it’s so funny like it’s yeah like you said like my whole life (0:38:50) Kelly: like I was still in college still living at my parents still working you know some like college (0:38:56) Kelly: level job (0:38:58) Al: I have a nine-year-old who was born a year and a half after it came out. (0:39:04) Kelly: you know I gotta say they really um milked gta live for all it’s worth (0:39:11) Kelly: because the fact that that kept (0:39:11) Al: - Yeah, they really did. (0:39:12) Kelly: that game so relevant is absolutely insane. (0:39:16) Al: Yeah, I mean, I’m never, I’m not really a GTA person, (0:39:21) Al: so I never played GTA Live. (0:39:22) Kelly: Well, I was. I was, you know, for literally most of my childhood (0:39:28) Kelly: and then they didn’t release a new game for half my life. (0:39:34) Kelly: Like, that’s crazy. One of my first- I used to rent (0:39:37) Kelly: GTA Miami Vice and GTA 3 from Blockbuster. (0:39:42) Al: I think it’s a very good example of how modern games have become too big. So from 1997, when (0:39:53) Al: the first GTA came out, there were 16 years between that and GTA 5. 16 years. It depends (0:40:00) Kelly: And what did they put out like 12 games? (0:40:03) Al: which one you’re counting, which ones you’re counting, because there’s like… so if you’re (0:40:05) Kelly: I’m counting the mini like the the side like the PSP games and stuff like that too. Yeah (0:40:12) Kelly: I could hear I could hear the little tapping (0:40:12) Al: going to be 15. 15 games. So an average of one a year. And since GTA 5… or let’s just (0:40:16) Kelly: Okay, so I wasn’t too far off (0:40:21) Al: shoot… so between GTA 5 and GTA 6 releasing, and this is just GTA games by the way, it’s (0:40:26) Al: not all Rockstar games. I’m just talking GTA stuff. So between GTA 5 and GTA 6 releasing, (0:40:31) Al: there will be at least 12 years. So 12 years between… and in that time, what have they (0:40:33) Kelly: That’s absurd. (0:40:38) Al: they had GTA Live and well, ignoring (0:40:38) Kelly: Red Dead Redemption? (0:40:42) Al: the other so GTA stuff specifically GTA Live or online or whatever you call it and their remastered (0:40:42) Kelly: Yeah, yeah. (0:40:48) Al: trilogy. No, exactly. And I was counting for the record like I wasn’t I wasn’t even counting like (0:40:49) Kelly: Oh, right, okay. Which, that doesn’t count. (0:40:56) Al: they had a double pack and a trilogy re-release. I wasn’t counting those before so literally and (0:41:04) Al: GTA online came out at the same time as 5 came in 2013 was like two weeks after 5. So (0:41:08) Kelly: Yeah, yeah. (0:41:12) Al: yeah Rockstar have done other games of course since then but it just… (0:41:16) Kelly: But they literally had such a, like they are who they are because of GTA. (0:41:22) Al: yeah, uh-huh. Also well also also also Lemmings but yeah. (0:41:24) Kelly: Like again, that was my childhood. I could tell you the craziest cheats for those games. (0:41:30) Al: We can’t forget Lemmings come on. (0:41:32) Kelly: What is, is that a Rockstar game? (0:41:35) Al: Did you never? So okay right this is where we get into the history of Rockstar North. (0:41:40) Al: Not Rockstar, Rockstar North. (0:41:41) Kelly: Is that the Scotland office? (0:41:42) Al: So, well, let me get to that. Let me get to that. So, GTA was originally developed (0:41:50) Al: by a company called DMA Design. This was a company based in Dundee, in Scotland, which (0:41:52) Kelly: Mm-hm. (0:42:00) Al: it’s actually the heart of games design in Scotland. The university there, people come (0:42:07) Al: from all over the world to study games design. It’s like well known for that. (0:42:13) Al: DMA Design, after GTA 3, were bought by Rockstar and renamed Rockstar North. But before that, (0:42:23) Al: they also released many games. GTA is the one that obviously most people know of, (0:42:29) Al: but they also released Lemmings, which was a big game. Did you never play Lemmings? (0:42:37) Al: So, this was a game, the game play for this was you have… (0:42:42) Al: Obviously, this is based on the false idea of Lemmings walking off cliffs, (0:42:46) Al: which is obviously nonsense, but it was a fun game. (0:42:50) Al: So, you know about the creatures Lemmings, right? (0:42:52) Kelly: Yes, yes. (0:42:53) Al: And you know about the Disney’s terrible thing where they pretended that Lemmings (0:42:58) Al: walked off cliffs, but actually they just basically pushed them off a cliff for a documentary. (0:43:02) Kelly: Yes, I do know about that. (0:43:03) Al: Yeah, OK, cool. (0:43:06) Al: So, DMA Design made a game called Lemmings that was based off this idea. (0:43:10) Al: Um, you have a lot of little (0:43:12) Al: lemmings and you have to guide them through a 2D world, get them from the start to the end using (0:43:20) Al: different things like you can, you know, you can tell a lemming to mine through this thing, (0:43:24) Al: you can tell one to build a stair, you can, you know, loads of things. It was a really fun game. (0:43:28) Kelly: They’re so cute looking, honestly. Like, I’m looking at it now, it looks adorable. (0:43:30) Al: Yeah. So I don’t think they made a single lemmings game after they became Rockstar North, (0:43:36) Al: which I’m very sad about, but it’d be amazing. They basically- (0:43:39) Kelly: Ugh, could you imagine? (0:43:42) Al: became the GTA place, even though they did so many other games before that. (0:43:47) Kelly: Yeah, that’s crazy. I never would have guessed that, to be honest. (0:43:50) Kelly: But yeah, GTA. What is life? (0:43:53) Al: Yes, there we go. So many tangents in this episode. (0:43:56) Kelly: Derailment 2. (0:43:57) Kelly: - What? (laughs) (0:43:59) Al: Um, but hey, I mean, GTA 6 probably come out before Elder Scrolls 6. (0:44:04) Kelly: I’ll probably get it before a silk song, you know, that’s (0:44:07) Al: Well, I don’t know… I don’t know… (0:44:10) Al: Bye. (0:44:10) Kelly: Al I have to say these things to jinx it so (0:44:12) Al: Yeah, okay, sorry, sorry. Right, I think we’re done with our tangents for now, (0:44:18) Kelly: Yes (0:44:19) Al: and that’s definitely the news finished. I think the news was finished 20 minutes ago. (0:44:25) Kelly: We had to have another history lesson, okay (0:44:25) Al: So now, yeah, yeah, we’ve got two Scottish history license, one about the language, (0:44:31) Al: and one about the only games company that has actually been successful. (0:44:38) Kelly: You have to say we’re consistently on theme, at least, somehow. (0:44:42) Al: I’m just getting you ready. I’m getting you ready for coming. You can have a look at the (0:44:47) Al: Rockstar North offices in Edinburgh when you’re there. I don’t know where their current offices (0:44:52) Al: are because I think they moved since I worked in Edinburgh. Anyway, we’re going to talk (0:44:57) Al: about Dave the Diver. Specifically, we’re going to talk about the story aspect of it, (0:45:02) Al: but there are two things we need to discuss beforehand. First of all, they have, for some (0:45:09) Al: reason I know it’s new DLCs since the last day of the day. (0:45:12) Al: So we need to talk about them. (0:45:14) Al: So the first one is Bilateral. (0:45:17) Al: This is the card game, the like ridiculous rogue-lite card game where you have to like (0:45:24) Al: build up a hand and make, like you’ve probably seen people with trying to break it by having (0:45:31) Al: numbers so large that the game crashes and stuff like that. (0:45:38) Al: I don’t think we know for certain what’s happening here, but it looks like they’re (0:45:41) Al: putting (0:45:42) Al: the game as a minigame inside, but I also noticed on the Nintendo Direct this week that (0:45:42) Kelly: It’s like a minigame, right? (0:45:50) Al: also Dave the Diver themed decks are going in bilateral as well. (0:45:56) Kelly: that’s cute I think that’s a nice like I feel like Dave does such a good job of (0:46:02) Kelly: these cute little like you know they’re they remind me like back in the day when (0:46:07) Kelly: you do like follow for follow or like photo like my photo and I’ll

Al and Kelly talk about what they think could still be added to Stardew Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:02:27: What Have We Been Up To 00:07:40: News 00:22:53: Stardew 1.6 00:56:47: What Is Still Missing In Stardew 01:21:22: Outro Links Echoes of the Plum Grove Release Date Bunny Haven Mika and the Witch’s Mountain Dev Update Potion Permit Update Len’s Island Roadmap Chill Roadmap Stardew 1.6.3 Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Al: Hello farmers and welcome to another episode of the harvest season. (0:00:34) Al: My name is Al and we are here today to talk about Cottagecore Games. (0:00:36) Kelly: and I’m Kelly. (0:00:41) Al: Ah welcome back Kelly, it’s been a while. (0:00:46) Al: What was your last episode? (0:00:47) Kelly: Um, was it the pumpkin heart? (0:00:47) Al: It was. (0:00:49) Al: Oh no pumpkin panic! (0:00:52) Kelly: Yeah. (0:00:53) Al: No! (0:00:54) Al: Oh I talked to, was it Bev I talked about that? (0:00:56) Kelly: Ahhh. (laughs) (0:01:00) Al: There was a couple of weeks ago and they had not listened to that episode and eventually went and watched like one of the speedruns and I was like just be warned and they were like yeah it’s terrifying. (0:01:08) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:01:13) Kelly: Yeah, that is absolutely the least cottagecore game that I think we’ve discussed. (0:01:15) Al: Yeah. (0:01:18) Al: Oh yeah don’t yeah. (0:01:21) Kelly: And listen, I have some anxiety attacks playing Stardew in the mines, but that’s nothing. (0:01:30) Al: We’ll talk about it later but I’m in the volcano just now on Ginger Island so I’m having fun there. (0:01:31) Kelly: Yes. (0:01:39) Al: Cottagecore and not Cottagecore there is an overlap there anyway. (0:01:43) Al: So yeah welcome back it’s been six months good to have you back. (0:01:48) Kelly: It’s good to be back, I’m always happy to come back. (0:01:50) Al: We are going to talk more about Stardew 1.6 because we are going to eke out all the content we can from this update I guess that’s the fun of me and Johnny covering. (0:02:01) Al: It’s going to be less than a week after it comes out is there’s always going to be stuff that we miss and so fun to come back and chat especially with with with you Kelly who obviously you weren’t on the last episode so you’ve got probably different thoughts probably some similar thoughts but anyway before we get into that transcripts are available in the show notes and on the website the there’s a bunch of news to talk about but first of All Kelly, what have you been? (0:02:30) Kelly: Besides playing Stardew, you know, I had five days off last week, and I spent three of them playing Stardew until four in the morning. (0:02:42) Kelly: So that was really rough to go back to work the next week. So now I’ve been trying to roll it in at about one o’clock in the morning. (0:02:48) Kelly: But, you know, that never works, because it’s always just one more day. (0:02:52) Kelly: So it’s like 1.30 I’ve been going to bed playing Stardew. So, you know, it’s been going. (0:03:00) Al: I mean is the original solitaire not a roguelike? (0:03:02) Kelly: But besides that, I’ve been playing Solitaire Battle. It’s like a roguelike RPG solitaire game where you battle other things. (0:03:18) Kelly: We had this discussion in Slack. I said it as a joke, but it 100% is. (0:03:23) Al: It is! (0:03:24) Al: There’s nothing like it’s just it’s a single run and then once it’s done nothing matters and you can start again. (0:03:28) Kelly: Yep, you got what you got in that run and then you don’t get that same thing ever again (0:03:34) Kelly: and you know what, it made me realize, maybe that’s just the games that I like (0:03:40) Al: Yeah. Each to their own. So what makes this different? Is it an RPG? Did you say an RPG? (0:03:40) Kelly: to my core (0:03:54) Kelly: Sort of so like you get you you you go against a different like character each round and you (0:04:03) Kelly: Obviously want to try to get more matches and more cards in them, but you also (0:04:07) Kelly: Have power-up cards, so you have like a tack move (0:04:10) Kelly: You have like some Stat boosters and stuff like that you can get like extra draws (0:04:16) Kelly: so you’re kind of just like looking to kill their health bar before your health bar goes down and (0:04:21) Al: Oh, interesting. (0:04:24) Kelly: Three three levels with three levels in each it’s it’s a unique little take on (0:04:29) Kelly: Solidary Dallin and introduce me to it (0:04:32) Al: is there a story? No. Okay. Well, let’s not get into the discussion of what an RPG is. (0:04:34) Kelly: No (0:04:36) Kelly: So maybe not RPG maybe I’m just saying letters and words (0:04:41) Kelly: No (0:04:44) Al: People complain about me talking about that all the time. Okay. Do you gain cards for winning and stuff like that? Is that how you get the power up? Okay. And then you buy the power-ups with the money. (0:04:46) Kelly: My hands are up I am done (0:04:55) Kelly: Uh, no, you actually gain money. (0:04:58) Kelly: So, like, yeah, yeah, you buy the cards. (0:05:00) Kelly: So it’s like, oh, you linked seven different cards at once, you get more money. (0:05:06) Al: sounds like a rogue light to me rather than a rogue like every time every time I talk about this I think I know the difference and then I say something and someone’s like oh maybe not (0:05:09) Kelly: I don’t know the difference. (0:05:18) Kelly: Yeah, I’ve given up. I’ve decided it’s funnier this way. (0:05:23) Al: see I’m I’m my current understanding is that a rogue like is where everything resets between runs and the only thing that improves is your skill and a rogue (0:05:36) Al: light is where you gain things between runs to improve the runs in other ways (0:05:42) Kelly: So I think it would be more of the first but you do gain characters (0:05:48) Kelly: to play as (0:05:49) Al: Yeah, but you’re also gaining money, right? Which gives you paradox and stuff like that so that (0:05:52) Kelly: Oh, yeah But so it’s like that’s one run and then I’d go back and like, you know do a different run So I guess it would be the second one because you’re keeping the cards through the nine levels that you’re playing I don’t know man. I don’t know (0:06:04) Al: Who cares? Whatever. I wouldn’t like it either way. There’s still only one that I’ve actually enjoyed as a whole game, so. Oh, what have I been up to? I mean, Stardew, like, is there is that enough? I mean, basically, I’m now at 60 hours played of Stardew 1.6. (0:06:07) Kelly: Who cares whatever (0:06:10) Kelly: Yeah, no you wouldn’t like it. I just think it’s fun (0:06:12) Kelly: I need to make fun of this conversation every time it gets brought up. (0:06:28) Kelly: Oh, nice. (0:06:35) Al: And we are currently recording on Thursday, so it’s quite an early episode for nearly a week before it’ll come out, but yeah, so it’s a week and two days since it came out, (0:06:49) Al: almost exactly. So, 60 hours. (0:06:54) Kelly: Too bad, I’ve put 30 hours in, (0:06:55) Kelly: but I did not start playing until Saturday night. (0:06:58) Al: Ah, yeah. Yeah, I was ready for it. The whole of Tuesday I was like, “Right, it’s going to be late. It’s going to be late today because I know that Concerned Ape is in Pacific time, (0:07:09) Al: but I’m going to keep paying attention anyway.” And then it came out at like 9pm my time and I was like, “Ugh, great.” Yeah, well, exactly. Exactly. So I am tired. I don’t think I’ve be doing anything else, sadly not games wise. (0:07:18) Kelly: Dangerous time to start. (0:07:29) Al: I keep trying to start Princess Peach show time, but I’ve got stuff to do in Stardew. (0:07:35) Kelly: It’s hard starting with such a commitment. (0:07:38) Al: Yeah, but we’ll talk more about that soon. (0:07:40) Al: Let’s talk about some news. (0:07:42) Al: First off, we have Echoes of the Plum Grove have announced that they are releasing on the 29th of April this year. (0:07:48) Al: Kelly, I suspect you haven’t heard of that yet. (0:07:52) Kelly: I have not, um, I like the title. (0:07:56) Al: So, I mean, the summary of this is it is a life sim where you can kill people. (0:08:04) Kelly: Oh. (0:08:08) Kelly: It’s such a cute artwork, I did not suspect that. (0:08:12) Al: Yes, yes. It’s very Paper Mario-esque. I’m trying to find the wording because it’s quite a… I can’t find the wording, but I’m pretty sure this is the one where you can kill people. (0:08:14) Kelly: Yeah. (0:08:23) Kelly: I like that. I think that’s a nice way to stand out. (0:08:25) Al: Yes, I’m all for different things. You also have to survive winter. I think you can die because of the season. I don’t know if I like that or not, but I’m certainly willing to try it. I mean, I’ve backed it on Kickstarter. (0:08:33) Kelly: Oh, I like that too (0:08:44) Kelly: Yeah, I mean, also I’m saying I like that, but I’m sure also if I played it and put like 40 hours into the game and then I died, I’d be pissed. (0:08:50) Al: So I believe that if I, okay, so you you have children and then you grow old and I believe… (0:09:00) Kelly: Oh, I think I have heard of this. (0:09:04) Al: I’m not sure I need to double check but I’m not sure if it says for certain but I think you can then continue as your child when you die. We’ll find out because it comes out soon, (0:09:13) Al: comes out in one month. Was this on Switch or was it just on Steam? Not that it matters anyway because even if it comes out on Steam, it will… (0:09:21) Al: Even if it comes out on Switch, it will come out on Steam first, (0:09:23) Al: so I’ll probably just play it on my Steam deck. (0:09:26) Al: I’m not seeing Switch. (0:09:27) Al: Anyway, so yeah. (0:09:28) Al: Next we have Bunny Haven. (0:09:30) Al: Bunny Haven is out now. (0:09:33) Al: I don’t think there’s much to say about this game. (0:09:35) Al: There’s bunnies. (0:09:36) Al: Adopt rescue bunnies, (0:09:38) Al: care for them, and transform your garden into the haven in this cozy cafe sim. (0:09:42) Kelly: Okay, cute (0:09:43) Al: Yeah, out now. (0:09:45) Al: Will you play this? (0:09:47) Kelly: Maybe I’m I’m like is that a phone game or is it like a yeah, I’m like weird about phone games I’ll like the idea of something but in the long run. I just go back to playing dungeon cards (0:09:58) Al: Oh, what is dungeon cards? (0:09:59) Kelly: so (0:10:02) Kelly: It’s a roguelite card game (0:10:06) Kelly: So yeah, it’s just like a silly little card game (0:10:14) Al: Mika and the witch’s mountain. (0:10:18) Al: This is your witch delivering packages. (0:10:24) Kelly: okay what is this like the poly art style is that what that is (0:10:29) Al: Oh, yeah, there’s a I know what you’re trying to I know what you’re trying to say, but it’s not that, and I can’t remember. (0:10:39) Al: Shaded, is it shaded? (0:10:42) Kelly: Oh, Cell… (0:10:43) Al: Cell shaded, yes, that’s it. (0:10:44) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think a lot of games can be really fun in the start style. (0:10:49) Al: I agree, I think this works really well. (0:10:52) Al: They have not announced their release date, but they have released that they’re planning to release they have announced. (0:10:59) Al: They’re planning to release before summer. (0:11:02) Kelly: Okay (0:11:03) Al: I don’t know if this is a translation thing because the team is Italian. (0:11:05) Al: So they’re, you know, there’s a, there’s an aspect of that, that they’re not kind of native English speakers, but that feels like before summer. (0:11:15) Al: I mean, I always have issues of using seasons, right? (0:11:17) Al: Because as we have discussed many, many times, there is no one universal definition of the seasons. (0:11:25) Al: Not everywhere has four seasons, some places have two, some places have three, some places have five, and even the places that do have four, they don’t all have them the same. (0:11:35) Al: So it always annoys me when the people do this, but like what is I don’t know whether they actually mean before summer or whether they mean before the end of summer, so it could either be like any time between now and what June, or it could be any time between now and September. There we go. (0:11:52) Kelly: Yeah, it could be anything. (0:11:56) Kelly: I think they intentionally did that just to be vague for their own benefit. (0:11:59) Al: Yeah, yeah, we are putting all the team’s efforts to have Mika and the Witches Mountain out before summer this year. Yes, we will see. I want to play that game, although not right now, (0:12:08) Kelly: I mean, it’s better than nothing. (0:12:14) Al: I’m playing Stardew, so you know maybe they can wait. (0:12:15) Kelly: The tarot cards look cool. (0:12:17) Kelly: I like the art for them. (0:12:19) Al: I haven’t actually seen that. Is that in this update? (0:12:20) Kelly: They’re collectibles. (0:12:24) Kelly: Uh, I’m on the page you sent me, but I don’t think it’s from this update. (0:12:28) Al: Oh yes, no, it is the update, yeah, yeah, well I know I do, that’s my thing. (0:12:30) Kelly: Oh, okay. (0:12:31) Kelly: Who doesn’t love collecting things? (0:12:38) Al: Potion Pyramid, did you play Potion Pyramid? (0:12:40) Kelly: Yeah, I did a podcast with Bev and Maddie. (0:12:43) Al: You did one on it, yeah. (0:12:45) Al: So there’s an update out now with new romanceable characters, I wasn’t even aware they had romance in that, I don’t remember you discussing that on the podcast, were you aware they had romance in this game? (0:12:49) Kelly: Mm. (0:12:57) Kelly: We were, um, I think it was kind of (0:12:58) Al: Hehe. Surprise, surprise. (0:13:00) Kelly: lackluster compared to some other (0:13:03) Kelly: romance-able games, so that’s probably why you don’t remember us talking about it. (0:13:08) Al: Yeah, probably, probably. They’ve also added some extra languages and a cinematic opening (0:13:17) Al: animation to the game. Is this in? Is it still in early access? Was it in early access? I can’t. (0:13:24) Al: It is not in early access. (0:13:26) Kelly: I was gonna say, I think he was out. (0:13:27) Kelly: They definitely seem to have been fixing a lot of bugs, (0:13:31) Kelly: ‘cause there definitely were a lot of bugs, (0:13:33) Kelly: I know, when we talked about it. (0:13:35) Al: Yeah, I feel like adding an opening animation, it doesn’t feel like an after 1.0 thing to do. (0:13:44) Kelly: No, also kind of feels weird when there’s like other things that I probably would have (0:13:50) Kelly: Spent the time on fixing (0:13:51) Al: Yeah, I will say that it won’t be the same people doing those two things, (0:13:55) Kelly: Mmm, yeah (0:13:55) Al: right? Like the developers would have gone, oh great, here’s the animation, right? That’s it in, (0:13:59) Al: right? There’s not much work for them to do after this is made. (0:14:02) Kelly: Yeah, but that’s still budget money, right, you know? (0:14:06) Al: » Sure, that doesn’t mean that if they hadn’t done it, (0:14:09) Al: they would have spent money on fixing. (0:14:10) Kelly: That’s true, that’s that’s very true. (0:14:12) Al: You can’t just throw more developers at a team and get quicker, faster bug fixes. (0:14:19) Al: It’s not how it works. (0:14:20) Kelly: Listen, I played Software Inc., it is how it works. (0:14:25) Al: Please never run a development team. (0:14:29) Kelly: My company was so successful. (0:14:32) Al: There’s a fun– I can’t remember the name of it, (0:14:34) Al: but there’s a fun. (0:14:35) Al: Principle in companies that says that people get promoted until they are no longer doing the job well and then instead of getting demoted back down to where they were doing a good job they continue to be in the job that they weren’t doing well and that’s why it always feels like management are terrible what they’re doing because they are. (0:14:55) Kelly: Mm-hmm. Yes, I’ve heard the same exact thing about managers and (0:14:56) Al: So. (0:15:01) Kelly: It definitely applied to my past manager. Now I have a good manager. So (0:15:06) Al: Ah, well, I’m sure you won’t have them for long because they’ll get promoted into something that they’re not good at. (0:15:14) Kelly: That’s the fingers crossed (0:15:17) Kelly: On a side note, I don’t know if you you’re interested in playing a work game after work, but software ink was fun (0:15:24) Al: Ah, maybe, maybe when I’ve had like a long holiday or something, (0:15:25) Kelly: Mm-hm, yeah, there you go. (0:15:29) Al: we’ll see. Certainly not right now. Maybe when I’m in a new job, maybe when I’ve got a new job. (0:15:34) Kelly: When you’re filled with hope and, you know, a new will to survive. (0:15:39) Al: Lens Island have updated their roadmap again. They now have six updates coming, (0:15:48) Al: no four updates coming over the next three months, which I’m sure will go great. (0:15:54) Al: They have the end of March, which is now. They have the community update. At the end of April, (0:16:01) Al: they have two different updates coming. They both say end of April. That’s very weird. (0:16:08) Al: One of which is the camp. Yeah. Yeah. So realistically, that’s one update, isn’t it? (0:16:08) Kelly: But they’re tied together. (0:16:15) Kelly: Mm-hmm. They wanted to showcase both. (0:16:15) Al: I don’t know why they’re calling it two different updates. That’s fair, but like don’t say it’s four different updates. That’s not how it works. (0:16:24) Al: Oh, that is totally something that someone would do. That’s the camera orbiting update, (0:16:24) Kelly: They’re going to be on two separate dates. (0:16:39) Al: which is such an overly complicated name for. I mean, it’s a very good and impressive feature to implement, right? Like you have a freeform camera in a game that never had a freeform camera before. That’s good. But my word, I do hate. (0:16:54) Al: that name. Freeform camera, yeah. Camera. Like what is the camera orbiting? And camera orbiting implies that it’s like always moving, right? Because like an orbiting thing isn’t moving at will, it is moving at a general constant orbital speed. So I. And as always happens in these games when you’ve got moveable cameras. (0:16:54) Kelly: Is that what you would say though instead free-form camera? Yeah, I think that sounds better than camera orbiting update (0:17:08) Kelly: Yeah (0:17:13) Kelly: You’re just trying to play the game and like hope that you can see the right way while you’re doing (0:17:24) Al: The controls change when you’re moving the camera, so you’re just running around in circle. (0:17:24) Kelly: mhm, mhm (0:17:32) Al: Oh, that sounds terrible. (0:17:34) Kelly: That’d be a fun, like, challenge form. (0:17:38) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:17:41) Al: Anyway, and the other update at the end of April is the completionist update. (0:17:49) Al: New starter guide, collections page, and quest objectives will be added. (0:17:54) Al: Then at the end of May, they have the frozen lands update, (0:17:58) Al: which is a new Arctic world, new weapons, enemies, and animals, new major boss. (0:18:03) Al: Major boss. (0:18:04) Al: Is that not just a boss? (0:18:06) Kelly: They really want to spice things up, Al. Let them be. (0:18:11) Al: a new vehicle and more. And then it looks like the full release has been pushed a little bit because it was originally scheduled for July, but it’s now coming out in Q3. Technically July is in Q3, but in fact they’re now saying Q3 rather than July. I suspect that means September. But thank you for saying Q3 and not saying summer. I appreciate that. Although you do get into the question of like, well, what are we talking? (0:18:30) Kelly: Yeah, I would also think that. (0:18:41) Al: Or are we talking financial calendar? In which case, which financial year? (0:18:47) Al: There is here. Yeah, it’s April to March. Technically, it’s the, I think the fifth of April to the fourth of April the next year. Don’t ask me why, it just is. Yeah, so if you talk about the financial year here that’s what (0:18:49) Kelly: Is there even a standardized fiscal year? (0:19:11) Al: people need. And that will include multiplayer and the I don’t know what they mean by the act 5 major update that sounds like it’s the final bit of the story possibly but I’m not sure. And a new hardcore mode. (0:19:26) Kelly: Are the stories called acts because like also technically this would be the fifth update (0:19:31) Al: It would be the fifth update this year but there have already been lots of updates to this game. (0:19:41) Al: It came out in 2020-2021, so yeah, I don’t know why I started saying 2000, right? (0:19:44) Kelly: I thought you were going to say 2012 for a second. (0:19:49) Al: I’ve not, I’ve not said 2000 and something for years, 2021, I don’t, I think even back in 2012, I was still calling it 20, I think it was back in 2009. (0:20:04) Kelly: That’s fair. I think I switched back and forth until like- (0:20:06) Al: Yeah, I find it funny because, like, I would never say… (0:20:10) Al: You would always say, like, 1901, 1905, 1922, you wouldn’t say 1905, yeah. (0:20:16) Kelly: Because that sounds ridiculous. (0:20:20) Al: But we knew that saying 2000 dand would sound ridiculous at some point as well, so why did we ever start saying, uh, it doesn’t matter, don’t matter, doesn’t matter. (0:20:29) Al: We don’t have time to get distracted by this pointless stuff. (0:20:32) Al: It is quarter to 11. (0:20:34) Al: Milltown have released their roadmap as well. (0:20:36) Al: They just came into Early Access last week, I wanna say. (0:20:42) Al: The day before or the day after Stardew 1.6, so I haven’t played it yet. (0:20:50) Al: So their first update will come out apparently this month, which presumably means like tomorrow. (0:20:58) Al: Because I don’t think they’re gonna be doing it all at the weekend. (0:21:02) Al: So it should be out by the time you’re listening to this episode. (0:21:04) Al: And that will have some bug fixes. (0:21:06) Al: Performance fixes etc etc and full controller support. (0:21:11) Al: Look, if you’re gonna release controller support like less than two weeks after your early access, (0:21:16) Al: just wait the two weeks. (0:21:23) Al: Boy oh boy. (0:21:24) Al: And then they’ve listed the other updates that are coming out, (0:21:27) Al: or some of the other updates that are coming out with no dates on them, (0:21:30) Al: which is probably a sensible thing to do. (0:21:32) Al: do. (0:21:32) Kelly: Yeah, I feel like that doesn’t set the expectations badly seems like some pretty good updates along the lot like down (0:21:37) Al: Yeah, I do need to play this game, it is on my list. (0:21:44) Al: I do own it, cuz of course I backed on Kickstarter. (0:21:51) Kelly: Some people are hoarders, some people, you know, (0:21:53) Kelly: back everything on Kickstarter. (0:21:55) Al: I feel like we’re about to come into a really busy period for games coming out, I just have that feeling. It was three days, it was three days after Stardew 1.6 came out that it came out. (0:22:00) Kelly: Yeah, I trust- (0:22:05) Al: In fact, in that case, it was last Friday that this game first came out, less than a week. (0:22:13) Al: And the final piece of information, which will be a lovely segue into our main topic, (0:22:18) Al: is that Stardew 1.6.3 is now out, which includes the most important update, Kelly. (0:22:24) Al: you can access clinche (0:22:25) Al: shop while your tool is being upgraded. (0:22:28) Al: That was three updates ago, come on get with it! (0:22:28) Kelly: I thought you were gonna say, “You could drink mayonnaise.” (0:22:37) Kelly: No, uh, when I saw the Clint update, I was so ecstatic. (0:22:41) Al: the Clint update. (0:22:43) Kelly: I hate him. I never want to see him. (0:22:46) Kelly: But this is the best update that could have been applied to him besides he turns into nothingness and you can become your own, uh, blacksmith. (0:22:54) Al: Well, let me tell you so I have so listeners will have heard this is when I segwaying into this is the this is The main main point of the episode now. We’re just gonna talk some more about stardew (0:23:05) Al: Kelly’s gonna talk about some of their feelings on the 1.6 update and (0:23:11) Al: I will probably talk about some of the 1.5 stuff that I’ve now accessed in the last few days because I haven’t stopped playing and (0:23:19) Al: then we might talk about some things that we think are still missing from the game. (0:23:24) Al: With the massive caveat that we obviously don’t expect anything else, (0:23:28) Al: and if this game never gets another update that will be completely acceptable, (0:23:34) Al: we’ve had six massive updates for this game. (0:23:35) Kelly: We love you, Concerned Dave. We don’t expect anything from you. Please just be nice. (0:23:42) Kelly: You’re so nice. (0:23:42) Al: Um, but yeah, Clint, I have an update. So people will know that I was, uh, I’m romancing Emily in this game. Um, and yeah, well, exactly. So, um, Johnny said that I’m running the full evil run in this version. Cause obviously I’m doing Junimo Kelly. You were the first person to find that out. Literally two hours before we recorded the last podcast, I got A message from Kelly going. (0:23:50) Kelly: Oh no, so arch rival Clint. (0:24:04) Kelly: It was the first person to shame you on it too. (0:24:13) Al: What have you done? (0:24:15) Al: As I had just finished completing the Georgia Community Center equivalent. (0:24:23) Al: I don’t even know what it’s called. (0:24:26) Kelly: I don’t either, but I open Steam and what do I see? (0:24:30) Kelly: But Al has completed the Jojo, Jojo Mart, whatever thing. (0:24:36) Kelly: I don’t think I know anybody who’s done that. (0:24:38) Al: Well, now you do. (0:24:41) Al: Let me see what it was actually called. (0:24:42) Kelly: This is the genocide run of Stardew. (0:24:46) Al: genocide. Wow. (0:24:50) Kelly: It’s an Undertale reference. (0:24:52) Al: All right, I did not. (0:24:54) Al: I played Undertale. (0:24:58) Al: I didn’t enjoy it. (0:25:01) Al: We don’t need to talk about that. (0:25:04) Al: So the actual the actual achievement is Georgia Co-member of the year. (0:25:08) Al: Look, it’s my rarest achievement, 4.3% of players of this achievement. (0:25:14) Kelly: There you go. Well, I saw that on Steam, and how could I not publicly shame Al for this? I mean… (0:25:26) Kelly: Oh, I will say, so I– to the listeners, I’ve only played Stardew on the Switch before this, (0:25:33) Kelly: and it is so nice to have the achievements. (0:25:36) Al: Yeah. You do get them in the Switch version, but they’re only in-game. It’s really nice to be able to go and see them. I don’t know why Nintendo insists on not doing achievements. (0:25:40) Kelly: Yeah, it’s not the same. (0:25:48) Kelly: It makes me so mad! (0:25:49) Al: It feels like something they could do with… It’s not like it’s no work, but the majority of the work is on the developers’ sides. They need to build an API that allows people to put in some information, and then they need a UI that shows you it. That’s really all you need to do. (0:26:07) Al: I’m not saying it’s very, very easy, (0:26:09) Al: but I am saying it’s not the hardest thing they’ve ever done. (0:26:09) Kelly: It’s such a small thing that’s like completely unnecessary, but it just feels so nice. (0:26:12) Al: And I think it would make playing the switch much more fun. (0:26:22) Al: Yeah I’m wrong actually it’s not it’s not my rarest achievement anymore. I got the unforgettable soup today. Yeah only 0.7% what did you put in to get that? Oh wow yeah love me an easy soup I put in I put in a gold truffle yeah I oh nice wow impressive that’s pretty good (0:26:22) Kelly: I will say. (0:26:28) Kelly: I got that a few days ago. (0:26:40) Kelly: Oh, fancy. I’m early in the game still. This was my first spring, or summer, or whatever. (0:26:52) Al: no I put it I put in the gold truffle purely because I accidentally walked into the beach and went oh no it’s soup time do I have anything in my bag I had one food item and it was a gold truffle look because I had the gold truffle it was fine right I was I was like this is a perfect thing for a soup this will be great (0:27:04) Kelly: Oh, you are so lucky. (0:27:06) Kelly: You are, I would have savescombed. (0:27:08) Kelly: I would have absolutely just shut the game down and restarted the day. (0:27:14) Kelly: Yeah, no, yeah. (0:27:16) Kelly: Yeah, you got luck, you lucked out. (0:27:18) Kelly: That’s awesome. (0:27:19) Kelly: No, I would have absolutely just shut the game down and like close my eyes for a second and then restarted everything. (0:27:26) Al: Oh dear, it was funny because I was going over, I was actually planning to go to Ginger Island. (0:27:31) Kelly: Oh, man. (0:27:32) Al: So I was going to the beach to go to the boat, and then I was like, (0:27:36) Al: “Oh, guess I’m not going to Ginger Island today.” (0:27:36) Kelly: Good thing you didn’t just, like, use a totem or whatever. (0:27:43) Kelly: Can you use a totem for Ginger Island? (0:27:44) Al: You can, but I had never, this was my first time going to Ginger Island, so I didn’t, (0:27:44) Kelly: I can’t… (0:27:45) Kelly: You can, right? (0:27:46) Kelly: Oh! (0:27:47) Kelly: Also, “Plans Interrupted” by the Lueo. (0:27:50) Al: I didn’t, I didn’t have any to- (0:27:52) Al: Oh, sorry, I interrupted you. (0:27:57) Kelly: That’s pretty lucky. (0:27:59) Kelly: I don’t know what I was saying. (0:28:01) Al: “Achievements”. (0:28:02) Kelly: Oh, I was going to say that was my best achievement. (0:28:06) Al: Oh, so I interrupted, I interrupted you, telling me about an unforgettable soup, (0:28:07) Kelly: That’s what I was about to say. (0:28:10) Kelly: I was going to brag about the fact that, yeah, I was going to say I have you beat. (0:28:13) Al: by telling you about my unforgettable soup. (0:28:19) Al: Apparently, so I’ve also, the Ginger Island one, which… (0:28:22) Al: just get to Ginger Island, only has 1.2% of players. (0:28:24) Kelly: Well that’s even with the soup one, I’m not doing great in the summer, I’m doing well, (0:28:26) Al: Yeah, that is really, that’s so much smaller than I was expecting. (0:28:29) Al: The soup one as well. You just need a gold and anything. (0:28:38) Kelly: you know, like I’m having a good run through, but I’m not doing anything crazy and yeah I started with the new meadow thing so I have chickens and eggs, that’s like a step up. (0:28:48) Al: - Yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:28:50) Kelly: Which is great, I love them. (0:28:51) Al: Yeah, so you did the new farm then. (0:28:52) Kelly: Yes. (0:28:54) Al: So tell me what you think about that then just in general. (0:28:55) Kelly: I think it’s really cute. I think it is kind of you kind of give yourself a little boost by getting the chickens for sure, because it doesn’t take long for you to get like a mayo maker and then that’s like, even without the mayo maker, you’re still like dedicated getting a few hundred dollars a day at the beginning, which is like such a big thing. Yes, it is. (0:28:57) Al: ‘Cause me and Johnny had to chat about that as well, (0:28:59) Al: ‘cause we both went for that, absolutely. (0:29:04) Kelly: It’s kind of you kind of give yourself a little boost by getting the chickens for sure, because it doesn’t take long for you to get like a mayo maker and then that’s like, even without the mayo maker, you’re still like dedicated getting a few hundred dollars a day at the beginning, which is like such a big thing. Yes. (0:29:20) Al: Yeah, which is huge to start with. (0:29:26) Kelly: I’m not selling my foraged goods and then trying to save some so I have something to eat. (0:29:30) Al: Yeah, selling wood and stone. (0:29:32) Kelly: Yeah, exactly. (0:29:36) Kelly: Like, yes, of course, I am a fisherman through and through when it comes to stardew, so that is always my go-to for money. (0:29:43) Al: interesting. Let me tell you, I am not a fishing person so much so that I am at level ten for everything in in this save except fishing of which I am far. (0:29:58) Kelly: Oh wow, no, I got like Iridium Fish by day 10 of spring. (0:30:05) Kelly: And I was like, oh, is this gonna be harder on like computer? (0:30:08) Kelly: Because like, you know, I’m using the mouse instead. (0:30:11) Kelly: But no, I think it might even be easier. (0:30:14) Kelly: I love fishing, I think it’s so much fun. (0:30:16) Kelly: But you make so much money. (0:30:16) Al: I dislike it less once I’ve gone up the levels, right, (0:30:23) Al: because it becomes easier as you go up. (0:30:24) Kelly: Yeah, yeah, it definitely does. (0:30:26) Al: And you do get a lot of money early game, (0:30:29) Al: but then by the time I actually have bothered to try it, (0:30:32) Al: I’m already making lots. (0:30:34) Al: Like I’m now trying to push up the levels because I’m like, I wanna get to level 10 on fishing by the end of year two. (0:30:34) Kelly: Yeah (0:30:40) Kelly: Yeah, yeah cuz otherwise you can’t get the legendaries right (0:30:40) Al: I’m currently midway through summer year two. (0:30:46) Al: You get them the next year. (0:30:48) Al: But no, I want to get it for the granddad’s evaluation. (0:30:53) Al: Although I think I just hit my last thing that I needed to do for my granddad’s evaluation. (0:30:54) Kelly: Well, yeah, that’s part of it too. (0:31:01) Al: But that last point that I needed to get was having your pet at full happiness. (0:31:09) Al: And the problem with that one is I don’t need to keep him at full happiness, (0:31:13) Al: which isn’t hard normally, (0:31:15) Al: but I’m trying to do a lot of stuff in general. (0:31:16) Al: look, Emily’s at home, I’ve already married Emily, she can be looking… yeah. I don’t (0:31:20) Kelly: Yeah, and then not come home. (0:31:36) Kelly: Because you committed animal neglect? (0:31:42) Kelly: You’re married already?! (0:31:46) Al: know how much I’ve played this game in the last week, Kelly. (0:31:49) Kelly: No, I just I truly don’t care about marrying people and so I think that’s always the last thing that I focus on (0:31:55) Al: I oh yes so that’s what I was going to talk about so my yes I was going to talk about Clint because I was talking about Clint. So last episode I had mentioned that I was romancing Emily and I had previously romanced Hailey. Hailey was my my first instard you and let me but we’re not in the same save file. So come on I’m not that and not that terrible although that would be interesting. (0:32:00) Kelly: Yeah, so we got so sidetracked, oh my god (0:32:14) Kelly: The sisters? (0:32:18) Kelly: Oh, okay. (0:32:25) Al: No, I I I romanced Hailey in my first Stardew game and the reason why I did that is I suspect the same reason everybody does Hailey is she’s mean to you when you first talk to her and you’re like “oh well I’m gonna have to I’m gonna have to change that”. Feels like a challenge. (0:32:38) Kelly: Umm, yeah, that’s what I did with Alex, cause he’s just mean to you. (0:32:49) Al: Yeah, yeah same thing. (0:32:50) Kelly: Yeah, I mean it makes sense cause there are each other’s, you know, counterparts or whatever. (0:32:55) Al: Yeah, yeah exactly, exactly. So that was my first one and then my second one I did (0:32:59) Kelly: Okay. Mm-hmm. (0:33:00) Al: Leah just as something a bit different. I thought she was quite a different character so I thought I’d go for her and then this one I don’t know why I decided with Emily. I just I just did and then the whole Clint stuff and I was like well this sounds fun and then so when I recorded the last episode, I was just kind of in the middle of romancing Emily. (0:33:23) Al: and… (0:33:25) Al: Johnny had mentioned how that was obviously because I was doing that and the Georgia stuff I was doing the full evil run (0:33:31) Al: Um, and I was like, ah, you know clint’s a wimp. Um, he doesn’t even try (0:33:34) Kelly: No, wait, wait, wait, what do you mean, what do you mean the evil run, you are, this is negating the horrors of your Jojo Mart because you are saving Emily from Clint. (0:33:44) Al: Well, because it’s… I don’t think she needs saved from Clint, I’ll be honest with you. (0:33:52) Kelly: No, but I mean, I hate him, so… (0:33:55) Al: Yeah, well, exactly. This was my point, is that I didn’t think it was that bad, because I think that Clint is just pathetic, and he doesn’t even bother trying, he just kind of mopes around. And then, so, I am now married to her, so I have officially broken his heart, (0:34:04) Kelly: Mmhmm. (0:34:08) Kelly: Yeah. (0:34:15) Al: but the best bit was it was amazing. There’s one of the heart, I think it’s… I’m assuming it’s a heart event for Emily. You turn up at Mayor Lewis’s house, and Emily is doing some clothes related, try out some new clothes thing with a bunch of people. And so, you do this and like a bunch of different people. (0:34:38) Kelly: Oh, I think I know what you’re talking about, yeah. (0:34:44) Al: It’s just you and Emily left and you have a moment with Emily and it’s all lovely. (0:34:57) Al: And then Clint walks back in and he sees you both and he’s like, “Oh, I guess I interrupted something.” (0:35:04) Al: And just before he leaves, he says, “Well, you win,” and walks away. (0:35:08) Kelly: Oh god, but see that’s why he’s such a sad sack little loser no he’s just like he’s the mopey kid in the corner (0:35:10) Al: And you’re just like, “Wow! (0:35:14) Al: Way to do it.” (0:35:16) Al: Like, “Oh, my word! (0:35:17) Al: So pathetic!” (0:35:18) Al: I’m just like, “You didn’t even try! (0:35:26) Al: What are you doing?” (0:35:28) Al: And he’s like, “Oh, can you give this thing to Emily?” (0:35:32) Al: It’s like, “Give it to yourself! (0:35:33) Al: You want me to give Emily a rock? (0:35:36) Al: You’re the rock guy! (0:35:37) Al: That’s your thing!” (0:35:38) Al: This is the thing, he is literally - all of Emily’s favourite things, except Cloth and and will are rocks. (0:35:44) Al: Basically, right? She likes all the things you get that he gives you. (0:35:45) Kelly: Mhmm. (0:35:49) Kelly: Mhmm. (0:35:50) Al: You just- he- he could eat- (0:35:53) Kelly: No, I fully support this because he is… (0:35:57) Kelly: He’s the little loser kid in the corner who thinks that for some reason, he is getting ignored. (0:36:05) Kelly: But he’s not doing anything. All he has to do is take a step forward. (0:36:06) Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah, give her a rock. (0:36:09) Kelly: Just be normal. Go talk to her like a person. (0:36:14) Kelly: Like, it’s so simple. (0:36:15) Al: Weird isn’t necessarily bad though, that’s the thing, you just need to actually try. (0:36:15) Kelly: Just… just talk to her like you talked to me, Clint, but maybe not ‘cause you’re still weird. (0:36:23) Kelly: No, I don’t mean weird in that way. I mean, he’s… I don’t like his mentality. (0:36:27) Al: I agree. (0:36:30) Al: He feels like he is the victim despite never even trying in it. (0:36:32) Kelly: He’s the victim. (0:36:36) Kelly: Yeah. (0:36:36) Al: Agreed. (0:36:37) Kelly: He’s the victim who put himself in a hole. (0:36:40) Kelly: Yeah, well… (0:36:42) Al: So, yeah, I have defeated him and broken his heart and now I’m married to Emily and all is good with the work. (0:36:49) Kelly: Yeah, that’s good. (0:36:51) Kelly: I’m happy for you. (0:36:52) Al: Anyway, sorry, I interrupted you. So, yeah, the new farm, you have enjoyed having chickens and getting mayo. (0:37:00) Al: I love also, I don’t know what you think about this, but I love how you can drink mayo now, not because I’ve ever done it, (0:37:06) Al: just because like in terms of the game, it’s a really good energy source really early on for this farm. (0:37:12) Kelly: Oh, I actually did not try it. (0:37:15) Kelly: Um, but I do know that it upsets the people around you if you do drink it around people. (0:37:20) Al: Yes. I mean, most of the time you’re not eating in front of people, right? Like, most of the time you’re downing something as you’re halfway down the mine. Let’s not pretend like, you know, (0:37:26) Kelly: Yeah, yeah. (0:37:29) Al: the people who are finding out that people don’t like seeing you drink mayo, they’re doing it just to see what happens. You’re not– Yeah, sure, but you– Sure, but you don’t go into Mayor Lewis’s house to drink some mayo, right? Like, that’s just not a thing you do. (0:37:35) Kelly: I mean, listen, sometimes I get caught opening trash cans when people are around. (0:37:39) Kelly: Sometimes I don’t think about stuff. (0:37:43) Kelly: No. (0:37:44) Kelly: No. (0:37:47) Kelly: Um, but no, I thought that was a funny little update. (0:37:50) Kelly: Just like a silly little thing. (0:37:52) Kelly: Who doesn’t love silly little things? (0:37:54) Al: how is your farm so far then you’ve you’re at your at the end of summer is that (0:37:58) Kelly: Um, I am, I think, day 18 of summer? (0:38:04) Al: the 18th of summer year one (0:38:06) Kelly: Yeah, so, good so far, I do need to get more into the mines because I need a sprinkler, (0:38:14) Kelly: so I need, I miss them. (0:38:16) Kelly: It’s just like, I want to grow everything, but then I don’t want to have to water everything, (0:38:19) Kelly: and yeah, it’s really nice to have your watering can updated, but it’s still not enough. (0:38:23) Kelly: And it takes so much time and so much energy, but it’s going good so far, I moved everything, (0:38:29) Kelly: I like the setup of the farm so far, I think I have a good idea of where I want to put my barn and stuff. (0:38:35) Kelly: Um, but I did move all of my crops down to the, is everybody’s farm different, and it’s just like similar concepts, or are they, the same, right? (0:38:41) Al: No, it’s the same layout, yeah. (0:38:44) Kelly: So I moved it down to, by that lake at the bottom left. (0:38:48) Al: OK, I’m still using the top, the stuff just underneath your farm because I have the greenhouse. (0:38:52) Kelly: That’s what I was using at first, I got fed up with the, the watering can. (0:38:57) Al: Yeah, fair. (0:38:59) Al: Yeah, that is one big disadvantage is that you are quite far away from water up there, but everything’s sprinkled for me now. (0:39:04) Kelly: Yeah. (0:39:07) Kelly: Yeah, see, once I get to that stage, (0:39:08) Kelly: it’s like, okay, I can pick and choose how I wanna do it. (0:39:11) Kelly: Although last time I used that area for fish, (0:39:17) Kelly: whatchamacallit, (0:39:20) Al: Oh, fish buns. (0:39:20) Kelly: yes, the roe, the roe pons. (0:39:21) Al: Right, I was like, you just have fish lying on the ground? (0:39:27) Kelly: So I used that area in my last different farm for that. (0:39:33) Kelly: But I like missing room with the layout. (0:39:34) Kelly: I like literally draw them out in notebooks and like figure everything out. (0:39:37) Al: Yeah, I don’t. (0:39:38) Kelly: Yeah, no, I mean I write out (0:39:41) Kelly: the information on like how much each fruit costs, how long it takes to grow, (0:39:46) Al: I see I’m definitely, I’m just at the point now where I’m just like well I’m just growing. (0:39:47) Kelly: how much it costs to pickle. (0:39:53) Kelly: Yeah, now you’re having fun. Yeah. (0:39:54) Al: Ancient fruit, ancient fruit in my greenhouse and whatever one specific crop is the best one to do outside, which is summer just now so it’s star fruit. (0:39:57) Kelly: Yeah, exactly. (0:40:01) Kelly: Yeah. (0:40:04) Kelly: Yeah, but no, I like the aspect of making my little lists. (0:40:10) Kelly: I like making lists. (0:40:14) Kelly: I got green rain the other day. (0:40:16) Al: The green rain is great. I got that for the second time today. (0:40:18) Kelly: I’ve never had it, my God, it was so cool. (0:40:22) Kelly: Cuz it’s only in summer, right? (0:40:24) Al: It is. I’m pretty sure it’s the seventh of summer it happens on, because I’m sure that was the same both years for me, but it might. (0:40:30) Kelly: Oh, see, I heard it could be different. I heard it’s rare and it doesn’t- (0:40:34) Al: Well, I’ve had it both summers, so I don’t think it’s that rare. (0:40:39) Kelly: okay but oh my god what a cool little event it made the insides of the houses so dark and eerie (0:40:43) Al: Yeah. (0:40:46) Al: I really like it. I especially the second time around, I noticed that it also makes all your trees suddenly grow to full height, which is cool. (0:40:49) Kelly: I got so much moss (0:40:55) Kelly: yes because I got a lot of my trees back in my yard um (0:40:59) Al: Yeah. Which was especially good for me because I was growing the hardwood trees at that point, (0:41:04) Al: and so I suddenly had 10 hardwood trees, and I was like, “Yes! All the hardwood! Fantastic!” (0:41:05) Kelly: oh that’s nice. That is so nice. (0:41:10) Kelly: I really liked that they had those fiddlehead fern trees in the forest area, down below your house, because I don’t have access to secret woods yet. (0:41:16) Al: - Yeah. (0:41:21) Al: - Yes. (0:41:27) Al: - Yeah, I think that’s also what I mentioned in the last episode. (0:41:30) Al: That’s another really good thing about this farm is it has both hardwood logs on it. (0:41:34) Kelly: Mm-hmm (0:41:36) Al: And the big hardwood log, you have to have a gold ax for, (0:41:40) Kelly: Mm-hmm, which I’m not up to yet (0:41:40) Al: but the, no, but the smaller one, (0:41:43) Al: you just have to have an iron axe for. (0:41:45) Kelly: Yes, which I am very close to (0:41:46) Al: And so you can get hard with much quicker. (0:41:49) Kelly: Yeah, which is so nice cuz there’s so many things that for crafting you need to you need the hardwood (0:41:55) Al: Yeah. Yeah. I think, do you not even need that for, I think, is it cheese maker you need that for? (0:42:00) Kelly: Yeah, because I was gonna go make one and I was like ah hardwood, and I have some hardwood, but I don’t have enough hardwood (0:42:03) Al: Yeah. Frustrating. (0:42:08) Kelly: What else I really like that now when your menu it like (0:42:13) Kelly: Blips the community bundle button (0:42:18) Al: I will say it has done that since 1.4, it’s just it seems to be something that people just keep (0:42:20) Kelly: Has it okay, well (0:42:23) Kelly: You know what? (0:42:27) Al: realizing every time they play it again. It’s like oh this is cool that it’s something a bunch of new people learn because I’ve seen because I’ve seen concerned a tweet about it three different times over the last five years and everyone’s like oh wow that’s a great new feature and is like no no I’m just reminding people because I yeah because I (0:42:32) Kelly: You know what? (0:42:32) Kelly: Maybe it’s just the best feature. (0:42:40) Kelly: Well, I just learned about it. (0:42:48) Al: because I’ll tell you how I know that it was definitely 1.4 is because I didn’t do community center this time. I didn’t play 1.5 but I used that feature quite a lot so there you go. (0:42:59) Kelly: Uh, okay. (0:43:02) Kelly: The sea jellies and the river jellies are very interesting. I don’t know what they’re for yet, but they’re cool-looking. (0:43:06) Al: You can eat them, but also there’s a specific one crafting that I know of that uses it. (0:43:10) Kelly: Yeah. (0:43:15) Kelly: Yeah, I figured there would, I figured there would be something. I’m very much in the… (0:43:19) Al: It’s something you’re going to like, personally. (0:43:21) Kelly: Okay, okay, but I’m, no, I’ll wait. I’m very much in the… (0:43:23) Al: Do you want to know what it is or not? (0:43:25) Al: No. (0:43:26) Al: OK. (0:43:27) Al: I need you to tell me what you think of it when you get it, because I think you’ll like this new item. (0:43:29) Kelly: » Okay, I’m excited. (0:43:34) Kelly: But I’m very much in the mentality of hoard things first and then later I don’t have to deal with it as much. (0:43:38) Al: Oh, for sure. Absolutely. Yeah, like it took me three months to figure out what the Moss was for. Yeah. (0:43:46) Kelly: Yeah, I’m still waiting on that one, I don’t know yet. (0:43:49) Kelly: I got so much moss though from that rain. (0:43:51) Kelly: I was like, my God, we’re going ham. (0:43:53) Kelly: And then I love how after a whole bunch of trees are still covered in moss. (0:43:58) Al: Yes Not just on your farm as well (0:44:00) Kelly: It’s like, this is the residue. (0:44:03) Kelly: Mm-hm, but also great for just fiber in general, (0:44:06) Kelly: because fiber can kind of be hard to come by sometimes. (0:44:10) Al: Yeah, especially if you want to grow tea saplings, (0:44:13) Kelly: Mm-hm, so that was really cool. (0:44:15) Al: which is a good source of early game money. (0:44:16) Kelly: I think overall, I just really liked that event. (0:44:18) Kelly: and I looked at the camera and I thought, “Oh, I’m gonna do it.” (0:44:20) Al: I agree. My first time on it, I didn’t do very much on it because I didn’t have a lot of energy and obviously it runs out early, but I literally got my second one today and I cut down every single tree that I found and I cut up all of the moss on the ground. I think I had like like 200 moss or something by the end of it. (0:44:40) Kelly: Yeah, I think that’s- I think that’s about what I got. I was like, I’m just gonna take food with me and empty my pockets and go. (0:44:46) Al: It’s definitely worth it. Did you talk to anyone during the event? (0:44:49) Kelly: Yeah, I went to the salon, which I was actually kind of pissed about because I wanted… (0:44:51) Al: Oh yeah, saloon, not salon, different things. (0:44:54) Kelly: Whatever. Yeah, I know. (0:44:56) Kelly: Listen, I know what the word is and what I’m gonna call it in my head are two entirely different things. (0:45:01) Al: It’s all right, I call it a pub anyway because saloon is a very American word. (0:45:06) Kelly: Yeah, yeah. (0:45:07) Kelly: Um… (0:45:10) Kelly: But I went there because I was like, “Oh, I’ll buy some more salads so that I have a ton of energy today, and then tomorrow if I want to go in the mines or something, I have a salad or something with me.” (0:45:22) Kelly: And then I went in there and you couldn’t even buy anything because everybody was just in panic mode. (0:45:27) Al: Yeah, yeah, did you find Demetrius? (0:45:30) Kelly: No, I did not because I was like, “You know what? I don’t care. I’m gonna go cut the trees down.” (0:45:34) Al: He’s so funny, he’s up by his house, (0:45:37) Al: dressed up in a hazmat suit. (0:45:40) Kelly: No, I did see a tweet about that, actually. Damn. (0:45:42) Al: He’s so funny. (0:45:42) Kelly: I wish I wanted to see that. I forgot that those were the connected events. (0:45:47) Al: Everybody else goes to the pub. (0:45:49) Al: He’s out in a hazmat suit. (0:45:52) Kelly: He’s an interesting little man, you know? (0:45:54) Al: Yes, yes he is. (0:45:56) Kelly: But no, I was like, “You know what? I gotta find these fiddlehead ferns, so I need to get out of here.” (0:46:02) Kelly: I was like, “Back to cutting down trees. This is too much interaction.” (0:46:08) Kelly: What else there was (0:46:10) Kelly: There was other things and now I can’t think of them (0:46:12) Al: So, this game is a lot about kind of the small quality of life updates, how have you found, (0:46:20) Al: obviously we talked about the new farm, are there other kind of day-to-day things you’ve been doing that you found different in the game? (0:46:31) Kelly: And that’s what I’m trying to think. I feel like there was, and now I cannot think, um… (0:46:36) Al: Feel free to get the patch notes up for on the stardew website. (0:46:40) Kelly: That’s what I’m literally… (0:46:42) Al: I presume you haven’t been to the desert festival? (0:46:44) Kelly: No, no, no, no, not yet, um… (0:46:46) Al: It’s very hard to get that in the in the first year but I’ve just been to it and I I very much enjoyed that. It’s good fun. It ties together a bunch of different things in the desert (0:46:48) Kelly: Yeah. (0:46:56) Kelly: Oh, I’m excited for the the fishing derbies tomorrow. Today. Today! (0:46:57) Al: which is good fun. (0:47:03) Al: Yes. (0:47:05) Al: T-t-today. (0:47:06) Kelly: Um, I like that that um, I haven’t really experienced it yet but I saw something about the mastery system which I think is very interesting and I am excited to see how that plays out. (0:47:15) Al: I’m so close I just need to get my fishing up to 10 and then I can do it. (0:47:17) Kelly: Ah. Um, what else? Oh, the prize machine! (0:47:23) Al: Yes have you done that? (0:47:24) Kelly: Yes, I got two tickets so far. (0:47:26) Kelly: And I got an apricot tree. (0:

Al and Kelly talk about Pumpkin panic Join Al and Kelly in a quick journey through the world of cottagecore gaming. They share their experiences with “Pumpkin Panic,” discuss recent news, and leave you feeling cozy and inspired. Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:03:00: What Have We Been Up To 00:13:42: News 00:55:48: Pumpkin Panic 01:24:30: Outro Links Disney Dreamlight Valley Leaves Early Access Spirittea Release Len’s Island Roadmap Updated Moonstone Island Updated and DLC Released Stardew Valley Horseradish Juice Echoes of the Plum Grove Steam Page Echoes of the Plum Grove Kickstarter Pumpkin Panic Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Al: Hello farmers and welcome to another episode of the harvest season. (0:00:36) Al: My name is Al, and we’re here today to talk about cottagecore games. (0:00:37) Kelly: And my name is Kelly. (0:00:38) Kelly: Woo! (0:00:43) Al: Two weeks in a row Kelly, what’s happening here? (0:00:50) Kelly: I know. It’s even funny because Kevin brought it up. I did last year’s Halloween. (0:00:56) Kelly: Which I totally forgot. Because I totally forgot Cult of the Lamb came out last year. (0:00:56) Al: Yes. That was last year, my word, wild. Yes. Yeah, yeah. I mean, why not? But hey, I’m on, I think this is, is this my first Halloween ep? No, no, I was on one with Rochelle, the original Graveyard Keeper one, I think, I was on. But I hadn’t played the game, so Rochelle I was basically just telling me. (0:01:01) Kelly: Yeah. It’s just my season. I don’t know what to say. (0:01:18) Kelly: I was gonna say Kevin brought that up last time actually, yeah. (0:01:22) Kelly: Okay. (0:01:24) Kelly: Well, welcome to your own podcast Halloween episode. (0:01:26) Al: about it and I was asking questions, but I think I’ve not been on any of the other Halloween episodes. So I’m here. Yay. Awesome. Well, thank you for joining us, Kelly. It’s good to talk to you again, even if Kevin did steal you from me for the last week. This one has been organized for much longer. Much longer. Yeah. Yeah. We have had a bunch of different ideas for last week and none of them were really like enough. (0:01:43) Kelly: Of course, thank you. (0:01:45) Kelly: I will say we planned this one. Yes. Last week was very impromptu. This is very much so planned. (0:02:01) Al: And there was a point where Kevin was like, I can’t do the recording time we have. And I’m like, well, I’m traveling the rest of the time. So so he kicked me off. He kicked me off my own podcast and and brought you on instead. So thank you very much for that. (0:02:16) Kelly: Always a pleasure. I did have to do a little, like, briefing on it though, because I hadn’t played Graveyard Keeper in, like, a year, and I was like, “Oh, what is this game again?” (0:02:19) Al: Oh, yes. Fair enough. (0:02:26) Al: Well, we don’t have that problem with this week’s game because it’s incredibly quick to play some of it and get a very good idea of what this game is. So this episode, we’re going to talk about pumpkin panic. And we’ll have lots to say about that later on in the episode. But yes, we’re going to talk about that just to mention that transcripts are available for the podcast in the show notes and on the website. So if you need that, that’s (0:02:57) Al: OK. Before we talk about pumpkin panic, we’re going to talk about the news. But first of all, Kelly, what have you been up to? (0:03:02) Kelly: I have been playing, I actually just finished this morning, I started playing the cosmic wheel of sisterhood. (0:03:16) Kelly: So this is an interactive story game where you play as a witch who has been banished from her coven, and you are kind of trying to make your way back. (0:03:32) Kelly: You play into your coven and you create tarot cards and you read the tarot cards to kind of create the gameplay in the world. (0:03:45) Kelly: And you have visitors. (0:03:48) Kelly: So I am not always great at story games because as much as I love reading, I also get very frustrated at a lot of stories in games. (0:03:53) Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:03:58) Kelly: And I thought this, they did this so good. (0:04:01) Kelly: I thought it was so much fun. (0:04:02) Kelly: Because you’re so hands-on with it. (0:04:03) Al: This seems a little bit more involved than a standard visual novel. (0:04:12) Al: Is it just mainly the one minigame that I’m seeing on this Steam page? (0:04:16) Kelly: Um, what is… what is… (0:04:18) Kelly: Um, kind of. So that’s like… (0:04:18) Al: with making the cards. (0:04:22) Kelly: You have that, you can do like there’s interactive stories within the story. (0:04:27) Kelly: Um, so there’s like different… I wouldn’t call them mini-games, but like the interactions are the rest of it. (0:04:33) Al: Right, OK. (0:04:33) Kelly: Um, and… (0:04:34) Al: But it’s not it’s not just like click a button and see the next. (0:04:36) Kelly: You kind of… like obviously… (0:04:40) Kelly: No, no, no, no. Yeah, there’s definitely… (0:04:42) Al: Here’s one choice sort of thing, right? (0:04:46) Kelly: You make the choices as to what you’re gonna do, who you would mite over to your little house. (0:04:50) Kelly: Um, and then… (0:04:53) Kelly: Even when you pull a tarot card, you have the choice as to how to explain the card. (0:04:57) Kelly: So, there is a lot of, um, leeway into how the interactions go and how the story itself is gonna go. (0:05:05) Kelly: So like I did a run, and I can do a totally different run next time. (0:05:06) Al: Okay. All right. (0:05:11) Kelly: So you do have you really do like you kind of write the story yourself as much as you can for you know (0:05:19) Al: It has very positive reviews on Steam, it has over a thousand. (0:05:23) Kelly: demo. There’s a demo which I would highly suggest playing because that’s definitely what I did and once I finished the demo I immediately bought the game and all of your stuff transfers over which is so nice because I hate when you start a demo especially for a game like this and you got to start it over. But yeah I thought it was like a very nice little like casual gameplay but like still very interesting. And like kind of emotional. (0:05:53) Al: Shocking when they make you feel things. How dare they? (0:05:53) Kelly: Right? What have you been up to, Al? (0:05:56) Al: Well, speaking of making you feeling things, before I get into games, I have watched the new film “Killers of the Flower Moon”. Have you seen… I presume you haven’t seen… (0:06:08) Kelly: I have not seen it yet, however I have owned that book for like a decade or so. (0:06:14) Al: Yeah, mm-hmm (0:06:15) Kelly: My dad bought it years ago. My dad’s a very big like historical novel kind of person and then we actually read it in my book club about two years ago or a year ago. I really enjoyed it. I thought the book was very good. I have not watched the movie yet, but I’ve heard very positive reviews. (0:06:28) Al: » Okay. Yeah. (0:06:38) Kelly: Even from the Native American community about the movie, of course there’s some things that probably could have been done differently, (0:06:45) Kelly: but I think that’s anytime it happens when you’re telling somebody else’s story. (0:06:46) Al: Hmm. I think, yeah, yeah, definitely. I think there’s a lot about the film that is obviously, (0:06:54) Al: you know, there’s some, you know, some racist stuff in the film, right? Obviously. But that’s the sort of thing where it’s like, well, yeah, but you’re talking about a, you know, a racist crime, (0:06:57) Kelly: Mm-hmm Yeah, yeah, you’re telling a story from 1930 or 20 or whatever (0:07:04) Al: right? Like, yeah, yeah, exactly. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s not, don’t go into expecting a good time. (0:07:15) Kelly: Yeah, and unfortunately I don’t think the story would be accurate if those things are kind of left out because they do play a big role in what’s going on with the story itself. (0:07:16) Al: No, of course. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I enjoyed that. It’s very long. It’s very long. So that’s why I was up really late on Thursday night because of that. (0:07:26) Kelly: But crazy. Yes. (0:07:37) Al: Because I saw the showing started at half seven and like I wasn’t home until quarter past midnight. (0:07:44) Kelly: Wow. Wow. (0:07:44) Al: So. (laughs) (0:07:46) Al: I don’t regret going to see it, it was very good. (0:07:49) Kelly: Which I feel like is such a… it’s such a hard thing to achieve with some of this… (0:07:49) Al: And I don’t think it was… (0:07:51) Al: Like, it doesn’t feel like it was unnecessarily long, right? (0:07:54) Al: Like, I feel like he was doing something with every minute that you had. (0:07:58) Al: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. (0:08:03) Kelly: these stories. Like, I mean, I feel like I didn’t see Oppenheimer, but I feel like that a lot of people talked about that. (0:08:09) Kelly: Feeling kind of like dragged out in a lot of spots. (0:08:12) Al: Interesting. Yeah, I suspect a lot of these things depends on how you feel about quiet moments that make you contemplate. Right. Absolutely. You can’t be talking about a massacre or about, (0:08:21) Kelly: Which I think these stories need those moments. (0:08:24) Kelly: So I don’t see anything wrong with that. (0:08:27) Kelly: Yeah, just on to the next scene. (0:08:30) Al: you know, wiping out of a city without having some moments to make you think, “Wow, that’s bad!” (0:08:40) Al: Exactly, exactly. So it’s quite great. (0:08:42) Al: So I enjoyed it. It was good. I don’t think I’m going to watch it a second time. It’s not like I’m going to watch this film again. But yeah. (0:08:54) Kelly: I will say on that note, the book is also extremely good. I know, Allie, you said you’re probably not going to read it, but if anybody out there is interested, very interesting. (0:09:05) Al: Yeah, people don’t really. Yeah. (0:09:10) Kelly: I think some historical novels can be kind of boring and dragged out because I do read a lot of history. This was very good. This was written in a way that like really you You just, you had to keep going. (0:09:24) Kelly: No matter what. It wasn’t, it wasn’t… (0:09:26) Kelly: Umm, oh my god, what’s his name? (0:09:28) Kelly: The Devil in White City guy, Eric Larson. (0:09:30) Kelly: I like some of his works. They can also be a bit cumbersome. (0:09:31) Al: Yeah. Fair enough. Yeah. I mean, just to make a point of it, like people don’t like when I talk about the fact that I don’t really read books, but I don’t really read books. (0:09:34) Kelly: So I don’t think it was like that. (0:09:47) Al: And it’s not like I read books as a child. And the problem is that I just I struggle because I don’t have like the visual aspect in my brain. Like I’m not I’m not able to see the things that are described. So so much of a book I just kind of skim over. (0:09:53) Kelly: Yes, yeah. (0:10:01) Al: Because it’s like descriptive stuff that doesn’t really mean anything because I can’t see it. (0:10:04) Kelly: Whereas I’m the complete opposite and I see everything in my head and then I get really mad when the movie comes out and skews my perspective on how I envisioned everything. (0:10:05) Al: Um… (0:10:12) Al: Yeah. I always found that hilarious when people were like, “Oh, it’s nothing like what it is in the book. It’s not like what I imagined it.” And I’m like, “What do you mean it’s nothing like what you imagined it?” I don’t understand what you mean by this. And now that I understand that people now make up images in their head, suddenly I understand what they mean now. They’re like, (0:10:22) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:10:32) Kelly: Yep Yep, it’s it’s so funny cuz like my roommate is like you she can’t see anything in her head and I’m like, well What do you what do you mean? What do you how are you living? I don’t understand Well, I am That is the that is the issue Thank you. (0:10:33) Al: “Oh, this isn’t exactly what I had imagined in my head.” (0:10:46) Al: Oh, I’m just like, how do you ever get anything done? Are you not constantly distracted by the things in your head? (0:11:00) Al: So I’ve also played a bunch of games, because I apparently haven’t been on the podcast for multiple episodes. So I have played and finished Sonic Superstars and Mario Wonder, and I have been playing through the new Spider-Man game. That is taking me longer, because just like It’s on my PS5, you have to kind of sit down and deliver. (0:11:16) Al: All those games are great, Sonic Super Star is good, Mario Wonder is fantastic, Spider-Man is fantastic. (0:11:28) Al: Both of those two games did things that I couldn’t, I just wouldn’t have expected what they did. (0:11:36) Al: It’s not just like, oh there are another version of this game, right? (0:11:41) Al: They both do things that are like, this is brand new stuff, really interesting. (0:11:41) Kelly: I think that’s so exciting, especially for the Mario games because I feel like, you know, (0:11:46) Al: That I really, really like. (0:11:48) Al: Yeah. (0:11:50) Al: Yeah. (0:11:52) Kelly: how long has it been? (0:11:52) Al: Yeah. (0:11:53) Kelly: How many games have come out? (0:11:54) Al: Yeah. (0:11:55) Kelly: Like, how do you keep reinventing the wheel? (0:11:56) Al: Yeah, definitely. (0:11:58) Kelly: But it’s still exciting to find out that they can. (0:11:58) Al: Yeah, and I think, I mean I don’t think they need to do that for every single game. (0:12:02) Kelly: No! (0:12:02) Al: Like I enjoyed every game in the new series. (0:12:07) Al: Like they’re all fun, they don’t have to be completely different, they all have new challenges in their different levels. (0:12:13) Al: levels but it is also fun to occasionally get like this is just. (0:12:16) Al: Just a completely different way of thinking and the the Wonderflowers just do just crazy things in the levels that make it just so different. (0:12:26) Al: You know it’s not just like oh here’s a different power-up and the new power-ups are fun as well but it’s not just like oh this one’s a bubble instead of a fire right and that’s that’s fun but it’s not like a radical idea whereas like the Wonderflowers are like what if this was a top-down game instead of a side-scroller and you’re like. (0:12:46) Al: Like what if apparently now we’re doing that you know like I think it’s the weird stuff that they did with that game and it’s like what if the Piranha plant sang you know. (0:12:57) Kelly: Oh my god, I saw the clips of that, they’re so cute! (0:13:02) Al: It’s just like I love the idea of that it’s just brainstorm a hundred and the weird thing is every single level has one right it’s not like this is the sort of thing that you wouldn’t you if if they told you but you’re like oh that’d be fun so like you know it’d be like all the boss battles. (0:13:16) Al: Have them or what like this. (0:13:16) Kelly: That’s cool. That’s very cool. (0:13:18) Al: A couple of levels in every world. (0:13:20) Al: Every single world has one. (0:13:25) Al: So yeah, good fun. (0:13:26) Al: I’ve also been playing Harvest Moon Winds of Anthos because I need to play that. (0:13:32) Al: So I’ll talk about that next week. (0:13:35) Al: I don’t think we need to talk about that just now. (0:13:39) Al: It is what it is. (0:13:40) Al: Cool. (0:13:41) Al: News. Should we talk about some news? (0:13:47) Al: Let’s start with the controversial stuff. (0:13:50) Al: Disney Dreamlight Valley. (0:13:51) Al: Have you played this yet? (0:13:52) Kelly: No, I have not. I think when it first like when they first announced it I was like oh this looks really cute If I’m not playing anything, I’ll probably play it Yes So I don’t think I will be playing Because like free to play You know, I know there’s gonna be some payment stuff, but you can kind of avoid it sometimes (0:14:00) Al: Yeah, were you waiting for it to go free to play? That’s the question. (0:14:04) Al: Yeah, well wait no longer! It is no longer going to be free to play! (0:14:08) Al: I think this is fast, so this is okay, so full context. (0:14:16) Al: Yes, yeah definitely. (0:14:23) Kelly: Or at least you can get an idea of what the game is before you decide to put money into it Yes, sorry jumping ahead (0:14:27) Al: so yeah so let’s okay well let’s put that let’s put the (0:14:30) Al: the discussion of that bit aside let’s let’s get into the actual news of it so the game is leaving early access on the 5th of december so that will be the first full version of the game whatever that means they have announced that it’s not going to be free to play anymore so you will have to to buy it they have also announced that there is going to be a paid dlc coming which they’re going to detail you’ll know more about this when you listen to this episode because they’re going to be saying more about it on the day this episode comes out (0:15:00) Al: that next week as well but they have also said that they are still going to continue to have free content updates so it’s not all going to be paid dlc I think that there are so many different ways to buy this game now it’s weird have you looked at the so in the main link on there they’ve got a list of the new ways to buy the game which is like you can just buy the game for $40 or you you can buy the physical cozy edition. (0:15:26) Kelly: Oh, I saw this. (0:15:30) Al: Which also gives you some stuff and that’s $50 or you can buy the gold edition, which also has more exclusive items and gives you the DLC or you can buy the DLC separately and these purchase options are on top of what the current purchase options are for early access, which you can still do until the 4th of December. (0:15:52) Al: I know it’s so bizarre. (0:15:53) Kelly: I think I got a headache just looking at this earlier. (0:15:58) Kelly: I was like, what is this, a streaming service? (0:16:00) Kelly: What the hell is this? (0:16:00) Al: I think I just it feels like so I think you can you can frame not being free to play as positive and negative right negative obviously a bunch of people who were like yeah I get to play the game without paying for it now don’t get to do that they either have to pay or they don’t get to play the game and that’s really frustrating I get why people would be frustrated by that. (0:16:22) Al: On the other hand obviously we know that free to play games are very manipulative and are very good at sucking. (0:16:26) Kelly: Oh, absolutely, yes. (0:16:28) Kelly: Well, so that’s what I was gonna ask, right? Like they’re not removing microtransactions from the game. (0:16:30) Al: But it’s not like there aren’t going to be ways to pay for things inside the game after you’ve bought it. (0:16:37) Al: No so I it feels like they’re just doing a bit of both worlds which. (0:16:42) Kelly: Yes, they want their cake and they’re gonna have their cake and eat it too kind of thing. (0:16:46) Al: Yeah yeah it’s not not great. (0:16:49) Kelly: And then the the $40 base price is kind of wild. (0:16:52) Al: It does seem let me so let me double check. (0:16:56) Kelly: To go from free-to-play to $40? (0:16:59) Kelly: Oh wait, so if you paid for early access, does that come out of the base? (0:17:00) Al: The early access prices. (0:17:02) Al: Because. (0:17:04) Al: So if you paid for access you have the game now so you don’t have to buy the game again and they’ve also said as a thank you to our early access players all unique cosmetic items included in the upcoming gold edition will be given free of charge to any player who purchases and claims of founders pack in game or on on or before December the 4th no matter the tier. (0:17:30) Kelly: Okay, that’s nice because I think… (0:17:30) Al: And not only that but all founders will also receive 2500 min stones to celebrate this that’s. (0:17:32) Kelly: Okay, that’s nice. (0:17:39) Kelly: Nice. (0:17:41) Al: So let me just double check the prices for… (0:17:47) Al: Yes, so here we are. So there’s three different versions you can buy in Early Access. (0:17:50) Al: Well, this is the thing. This is where it’s wild. So there’s the standard Founders Edition, (0:17:51) Kelly: Oh my god. But how many tears? (0:18:01) Al: which is the Early Access to Dreamland Valley plus 8,000 Moonstones plus a bunch of exclusive stuff, (0:18:08) Al: and that is $30. So $10. (0:18:11) Al: cheaper than the final price. And then there’s the deluxe founders rewards which gives you 14,500 moonstones. I don’t know why they insist on always like it’s not 15, why not 15? Weird. And a bunch of more exclusive items and that one I don’t have a price for but I think it might have been, it was either 50 or 60. (0:18:34) Kelly: Well, that’s 50 on here, on the regular one. (0:18:36) Al: Yeah. I think, I think… (0:18:42) Al: Yeah, it’s 50, 50. And then there’s the ultimate founders edition which gives you 20,000 moonstones and a bunch of extra cosmetic things. And that one was $6, $70? (0:18:58) Kelly: Okay, I think that makes sense because the gold edition for the standard game is (0:19:03) Al: So there are like seven different ways to buy this game. All with different things. (0:19:08) Kelly: Oh my god. (0:19:10) Kelly: And then the DLC is $30. (0:19:11) Al: So it’s like if you… Yes, which is only included in the Gold Edition, not as far as I can tell, (0:19:19) Al: any of the Early Access editions. So if you have Early Access, you still have to pay for the (0:19:25) Kelly: I have some things I’d like to say, and I’m gonna maybe keep them to myself. (0:19:31) Al: So I will say you do get a capybara companion if you buy the gold edition. (0:19:31) Kelly: It is very cute. It’s very cute. It has a flower crown. (0:19:40) Al: A flowery capybara companion. (0:19:41) Kelly: I mean, you can’t go wrong with the capybara. (0:19:46) Al: True that. (0:19:48) Kelly: Listen, the game looks so cute. I think that’s why this is kind of so disappointing. (0:19:52) Al: Yes, yeah, yeah, it is. (0:19:59) Al: So I think it is a good game and if you said to me this game… (0:20:01) Al: Why did they say that? Why did they even say that? (0:20:04) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:20:20) Kelly: Exactly. They made the promise. Yeah. (0:20:23) Kelly: And that’s so frustrating because that’s what they’ve been writing on since they announced this. Like why, why, why? And then to announce the changes a month before. (0:20:37) Al: Just why? (0:20:39) Al: I know, I know, I know it’s so… (0:20:40) Kelly: And then also, so if you buy the cozy edition, besides the flowery capybara and the expansion (0:20:50) Kelly: is there anything else you’re missing? Like are you limited from gameplay? Okay. (0:20:52) Al: No, no you’re not, you’re not. So the only gameplay, so everything that’s exclusive outside of the expansion pass, everything that’s exclusive is just cosmetics. If you buy, if you… it is, isn’t it? It’s not quite that bad yet, but it definitely feels like that’s where they’re going yes the funny thing is (0:21:07) Kelly: Okay, that’s a little bit better, but you know what? It’s giving me sims. (0:21:14) Kelly: No, but it’s getting there. Yeah. (0:21:22) Al: right see if you buy the base game and you buy the expansion pass that’s one cent cheaper than buying the gold edition which gives you the base game and the expansion pass I mean it also gives you the it does give you the capacity is the capybara worth one cent that’s the it just seems like why is the gold edition the same price as it seems weird (0:21:33) Kelly: Yeah, but no capybara. (0:21:47) Kelly: It does, like also, like okay so if you if you do really want to play this game, (0:21:51) Kelly: why would you buy the base edition and the expansion pack instead of just buying the gold edition? (0:21:55) Kelly: Again, this is just such a headache to look at. (0:21:55) Al: Yeah, yeah, well, that’s that yeah, so yeah seven different seven different ways to buy this game You either buy it in one of the three early access ways of buying it or you buy it in one of the three Non-early access ways to buy it if you wait till the 5th of December and then you either buy the expansion mass or not We don’t know what’s in the expansion pass exactly they’ll be telling us that on Wednesday today if you’re listening on the day this comes out (0:22:24) Al: There are some hints. (0:22:25) Al: There we’ve seen Gaston and… oh is that Rapunzel? I think it’s Rapunzel. (0:22:33) Kelly: Oh, yes, that’s Rapunzel in the back. And then, uh, Eva. Eve, Eve. (0:22:34) Al: Who’s the little robot? Oh was that from Wally? (0:22:38) Kelly: Eeeve. (0:22:40) Kelly: Yeah, from Wally. (0:22:41) Al: Okay I still haven’t seen Wally. I know, I know. So I went through a period of time of just not watching Disney Pixar stuff. (0:22:42) Kelly: What? (0:22:44) Kelly: Ugh. (0:22:47) Kelly: I mean, I’ve never seen Tangled, so whatever, but Wally’s so good. (0:22:52) Al: I have seen (0:22:55) Al: a few of them since, but I haven’t caught up on all of them. I just watched, what’s it called, Elemental today. (0:23:10) Kelly: How was it? I get clips on TikTok and it seems pretty cute. (0:23:14) Kelly: I feel like the trailer kind of made it seem like it was going to be like a knock-off uh… (0:23:14) Al: I enjoyed it, yeah. It’s better than the trailer that made me think it was going to be. (0:23:22) Kelly: How am I… I’m blanking on it. (0:23:24) Kelly: No, um… I can’t think right now. I don’t know. (0:23:25) Al: Anything can roll me on Juliet. (0:23:30) Kelly: It just felt very familiar, I guess, if that… (0:23:34) Al: Yeah, it is. There’s nothing particular about it that’s interesting on you, but I think it does a good job of being a fun and enjoyable and emotional way of exploring immigration and an immigrant’s family’s journey and some of those struggles. I think it does a good job. (0:23:50) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:23:52) Kelly: That’s uh, that’s like kind of like again, I watched a lot of clips on tiktok. I get so sucked into the movie clips on tiktok But I think that that’s exactly the vibe I got to I was like very surprised I feel like With the difference between the trailer and how the actual movie seemed to be See ya later. (0:24:03) Al: fair. (0:24:16) Al: Yeah. I don’t know what that trailer was about, because like the trailer came out and everyone went “this looks terrible, what are you doing?” and then the phone came out and people were like “yes, yes, sorry, it’s good, it’s good, it’s enjoyable”. Yeah. Yeah. I’m not going to say it’s the best Pixar film, but it’s certainly not the worst. It’s good. I enjoyed it. Yeah, so that’s, we don’t, we’ve seen Gaston and Rapunzel and would you say Eve? (0:24:19) Kelly: Bye. (0:24:27) Kelly: Yeah, I feel like every review I’ve seen of it, people really liked it, like they enjoyed it, so… (0:24:46) Kelly: Eve, yeah. I think that Eve, Eevee, something like that? Not Eevee, but it’s like that, yeah. (0:24:46) Al: And there’s a snake and a pig. So we don’t know a huge amount, we’ll see, but it’s, I don’t think so. (0:24:57) Kelly: Is that the jungle book? (0:24:58) Kelly: No, that’s not the snake from the jungle book. (0:25:03) Kelly: Oh, there’s a creature in the tree too. (0:25:05) Kelly: That is the jungle book. (0:25:07) Kelly: Look at the monkey in the tree. (0:25:09) Kelly: I’m pretty sure that’s the jungle book. (0:25:11) Al: Anyway, well, no more. It’s interesting that this is their first paid DLC, so they are locking content behind another paywall, which is what it is. I’m not saying that’s necessarily a bad thing. I’m just saying it is what it is. So don’t expect to pay the base price of the game and get all of the updates for free forever. That’s not going to happen. (0:25:22) Kelly: Which I think is just… (0:25:24) Kelly: Yes. (0:25:34) Kelly: I just think it’s a little wild to go from free to play to the base game is free and then the DLC is also the same price as like a game. (0:25:36) Al: It’s not Stardew Valley. (0:25:41) Al: Well, that’s the thing. If you want to now play everything that will be available on the 5th of December, it’s gone from zero to $70. Yes, you say there’s going to be more free content updates, but you know there’s going to be more paid DLC as well. (0:26:01) Kelly: Oh, and like you said, there’s transactions in the game probably too, right? (0:26:04) Al: Yep, yep, yep. So I never outright bought it. (0:26:06) Kelly: Do you have early access or no? (0:26:11) Al: Although I will now be buying it because I was waiting for it to be free before I got it on Switch. But I did have it on Game Pass for a while, and I was playing it on that. (0:26:14) Kelly: Well… (0:26:16) Kelly: Oh, uh, okay. (0:26:25) Al: The thing that I’m frustrated with free to play is not that I have to pay for the game. (0:26:28) Al: I’m fine with paying for the game. What I’m frustrated is I now have to decide what I’m playing it on. When it’s free to play, it would mean I could have it on everything and choose depending on how I’m feeling on the day or how they play on different platforms. (0:26:29) Kelly: - Yeah. (0:26:41) Al: Whereas now I need to go, or no, I need to decide do I want to on Switch or do I want to on Steam Deck. (0:26:45) Kelly: Mm-hmm That’s fair I just I think it’s just I’m mostly annoyed about being told the whole time that it’s gonna be free to play and then Getting the rug pulled out from under you a month before (0:26:46) Al: I think I’m going to do it. (0:26:54) Al: It’s bizarre. Never make these decisions upfront. Yeah. Wild. Never say, “Oh, next year when release is good.” Just don’t do it. It’s pointless. It is. I mean, it doesn’t feel like it should be that big a promise for, you know, one of the biggest companies in the world. (0:27:05) Kelly: It’s a big promise to make. (0:27:07) Kelly: No, no, no, no, it shouldn’t. (0:27:12) Kelly: I think that’s another point that I was trying not to bring up is like, come on, like of all people Do you really need to be charging this much? (0:27:21) Al: Yeah, I suspect. What I suspect is they didn’t expect it to be as popular as it has been and people to like it as much. Like, this is a good game, right? This isn’t one of these, like, “Oh, they’ve just thrown some money at someone and got a really rubbish game based on a film,” right? This is a really good game, and if you like Disney characters, (0:27:42) Al: this is a great game to play because there’s so much lore and you get to, like, be friends with the characters that you like in the games. It’s really good fun. (0:27:51) Al: And the farming is good. It’s not their best, but it’s good. It’s a good game. That’s part of the problem is I think they were probably expecting it to be a standard free to play game. The people who made those decisions, right? We’re expecting it to be like, Oh, (0:28:05) Al: this isn’t a game we’re going to manage to convince people to pay for. Oh wait, no people like the game. Oh, well, we’re gonna, we’re gonna charge people in, you know. (0:28:12) Kelly: And I think back to your point, like, I’m not… I mean, obviously I grew up on Disney, whatever. (0:28:19) Kelly: I’m not the biggest Disney person. I still wanted to play the game. Like, it looked like a good game. (0:28:24) Al: It is. It is a good farming game. It is a good cottagecore game. (0:28:26) Kelly: But I think now, like, someone like me, I’m not gonna play this game, to be quite honest. (0:28:31) Al: Yeah. (0:28:34) Kelly: Because I’m not gonna pay, whatever, 40 bucks at the minimum. (0:28:38) Kelly: I mean, to be honest, I’m mostly playing indie games, so like… (0:28:42) Kelly: He paying $40 is like, I really wanted to play this game. (0:28:42) Al: Yes, it’s cheap compared to some games, but… (0:28:45) Kelly: Yes. But by my standards, that’s a triple-A game. (0:28:52) Kelly: Literally. (0:28:53) Al: You could buy Stardew four times for that price. (0:28:55) Kelly: Literally. (0:28:59) Al: You could buy Stardew on all your consoles if you wanted, and you probably already have. (0:29:06) Al: Last couple of things, the Cozy Edition, as we mentioned, that’s the… (0:29:12) Al: physical edition. (0:29:13) Al: I do not know why they’re calling it this, it is a stupid name, but whatever. (0:29:17) Al: It has been delayed until the 10th of November, except the Switch version in North America. (0:29:25) Al: All the other versions have been delayed. (0:29:26) Kelly: How lucky. (0:29:29) Al: It’s such a weird… (0:29:30) Al: I mean, first of all, who’s buying this game physically? (0:29:33) Al: That is a weird decision to make. (0:29:35) Al: I don’t… (0:29:35) Kelly: I could see if it was released closer to Christmas or something. (0:29:36) Al: Why are you… yeah, okay, I guess that’s a good point. (0:29:39) Kelly: Like, does anything come with it? (0:29:41) Kelly: No, no, I mean like physical. (0:29:42) Al: Yeah, you do get a few cosmetics extra with it, but that’s all. (0:29:47) Al: Oh, no. (0:29:47) Kelly: No, then no. (0:29:49) Al: No, no, it’s just a case with the game and a code that gives you some extra cosmetics, (0:29:49) Kelly: Oh, not even… yeah, no, no, no. (0:29:58) Al: that’s it. (0:30:00) Al: I think, yeah, you’re probably right though, that’s exactly it. (0:30:03) Al: It’s because people will buy a game for people physically, right? (0:30:06) Kelly: Yeah. (0:30:06) Kelly: I was about to say, “Your grandma can buy a friend.” (0:30:07) Al: That’s why they always do that, because then your grandmother can walk into a shop and buy a game for you. (0:30:12) Al: Oh, they like Disney. (0:30:14) Al: Yeah, that’s exactly what it is, isn’t it? (0:30:14) Kelly: Exactly. (0:30:16) Kelly: Oh, Disney characters? (0:30:17) Kelly: This is perfect. (0:30:20) Al: Don’t buy this game physically. (0:30:23) Al: It’s weird decision to make. (0:30:24) Al: I mean, do what you want. (0:30:26) Al: I’m not. Anyway, and I guess the final point to say is that Micah has finally been vindicated because he bought the game not knowing it was going to be free to play. (0:30:35) Al: And turns out it’s not going to be free to play. (0:30:36) Kelly: Oh, really? (0:30:40) Al: So he gets the last laugh. (0:30:43) Al: I think. Yeah, he didn’t. (0:30:45) Al: It was really funny because we were I can’t remember when it was. (0:30:47) Al: But the first episode that I had him on after the game came out, (0:30:52) Al: we were talking about how he was playing it and then how he bought it. (0:30:54) Al: And then I’d mentioned that it was going to be free to play. (0:30:57) Al: And he was like, wait, what? (0:30:58) Al: It was very funny. (0:31:01) Al: I think he bought the Ultimate Founders Edition as well. (0:31:02) Kelly: Well, it seems like he was gonna pay the money no matter what, so… (0:31:03) Al: So that’s like he paid the seventy dollars. (0:31:06) Al: Well, yeah, that’s true. (0:31:08) Kelly: You know, I feel like in that instance, it doesn’t matter if it was free to play or not. (0:31:13) Al: That’s true, that’s true. (0:31:14) Al: I think that’s everything about that. Wow, we just spent 15 minutes talking about that. (0:31:21) Al: Cool, so there you go. 5th of December, that’s the important thing. If you want any of the special stuff that comes with only early access, go get that as soon as you can. If you don’t, (0:31:34) Al: then don’t. If you’re not going to buy this game, I’m sorry. There we go. (0:31:39) Al: Speaking of games coming out with less controversy. (0:31:42) Al: Spirit tea. So this is the farming game slash Spirited away type game where you are running a tea Once ago tea. Yeah. Yes And Yeah, I kick started it when I came out because I’m I thought I I actually have access to the game already I know right (0:31:55) Kelly: It’s like a tea house, bath shop. (0:31:58) Kelly: It looks so cute. (0:31:59) Kelly: I wanna get this. (0:32:01) Kelly: This is, I’m definitely getting. (0:32:08) Kelly: Oh my god. (0:32:12) Al: So, yeah, I kick started the game looking forward to playing it it is the is finally releasing on the 13th of November So if you have been looking forward to running your own little tea house tea shop wherever you want to call it with a bath house and Play with some spirits. I don’t I don’t know the right words to use with this game yet. Go go get it It’s mostly one guy who’s been developing it for a bunch of years. He’s working with a publisher But yeah, if you like game– (0:32:42) Al: games that are as indie as they come, go get it. (0:32:47) Al: Yeah, yeah, it’s not just your standard. (0:32:47) Kelly: It looks like a nice little spin on the farming game. (0:32:55) Al: Go plant some turnips and then you get better crops. (0:32:58) Kelly: Yeah. (0:32:59) Al: Lens Island have updated their roadmap, (0:33:04) Al: so they have said that their 1.0 is coming out in July 2024. (0:33:09) Al: I think this is the first official date we got from them. (0:33:12) Al: We had got some– they’d originally wanted to release it this year, (0:33:16) Al: and then at some point they’d said it would be next year. (0:33:20) Kelly: That’s nice to get a solid time actually. It always is. You’re talking to the person waiting for Silksong here, I know. (0:33:23) Al: It’s dangerous, but yeah, nice. So I look forward to Lens Island coming out in November of next year. (0:33:36) Al: They’ve also said there are going to be two more updates this year. One in November, (0:33:47) Al: which, oh look, it’s November now, and one in December, and then there’ll be a final. (0:33:53) Al: Major update before the final release in March of next year, and then the final release in July of next year. So if you are waiting for that one point of release of Lens Island, (0:34:06) Al: that’s when you’re going for it. I actually own this game as well, and I haven’t played it. (0:34:11) Al: It’s quite combat focused this game, and when I first got it when it first entered Early Access, (0:34:22) Al: because I kickstarted that. (0:34:23) Al: I need to stop kickstarting things. (0:34:26) Al: I kickstart all the farming games. (0:34:28) Kelly: You just want to be hip and say, “I was here first.” [laughs] (0:34:29) Al: It’s a sickness, Kelly. (0:34:32) Al: Yeah, I know, right? (0:34:38) Al: They didn’t have controller support at that point. (0:34:41) Al: And of course, I was playing it on my Steam Deck, so it was not fun to play with. (0:34:46) Al: So I spent like five minutes and went, nope, not doing this. (0:34:48) Al: I’m waiting for controller support. (0:34:48) Kelly: Wait, if it didn’t have– (0:34:51) Kelly: how does that work, then? (0:34:53) Al: I think you can map any button or any touchpad or anything to any standard PC controls. (0:35:03) Al: So you can say, if I press this button, (0:35:06) Al: I press this keyboard button or I press this mouse button or I do this gesture or there’s loads of clever things you can do, and it works really well for a lot of things, but it wasn’t working for this. (0:35:17) Kelly: That’s very fair. (0:35:18) Al: I was like, I need to wait for official controller support for this one. (0:35:19) Kelly: I do think it’s funny that the release date on Steam is November 26, 2021. (0:35:22) Al: So that’s what I did. (0:35:28) Kelly: ‘Cause it’s 2023? (0:35:28) Al: Why is that date funny? (0:35:31) Al: OK, well, that was the early access release date. (0:35:32) Kelly: I know, I know, but I’m just saying it’s funny to like sit here and look at the news about, you know, it getting released next year. (0:35:35) Al: OK. (0:35:37) Al: Yes, yes. (0:35:42) Al: Moonstone Island are I think I think you and Kevin talked about the DLC for that last week, they’ve announced that there is a free update coming with the DLC as well, which should be out now. (0:35:57) Al: So it includes an expansion to the green. (0:35:58) Al: House closing old mine holes. (0:36:01) Al: I don’t know what that means. (0:36:03) Al: Who knows? (0:36:03) Kelly: Umm, okay. (0:36:06) Kelly: I’m assuming monsters come out of the mine holes, maybe? (0:36:10) Al: I think it’s a creature collection game. (0:36:10) Kelly: I don’t know. (0:36:12) Kelly: Stop the children from falling down the mines. (0:36:13) Al: It’s a creature. (0:36:15) Al: Yeah, we do. We don’t want that. (0:36:18) Al: Inventory manage improvements and adjustable day length are the big things that they were highlighting. There’s I mean, the patch notes are much more detailed. I’m not going through them. (0:36:28) Al: There’s a lot of stuff. I’ll link it in the show notes. (0:36:31) Al: Go look at that if you care about it. (0:36:32) Al: Yeah. Yeah. (0:36:32) Kelly: Yeah, this is the one it had a ton of updates last week too or two weeks ago Okay, that makes sense, but it seems like they’re really working to you know update any of these little issues (0:36:37) Al: I think most of it was like bug fixing and stuff. (0:36:39) Al: This is the first kind of like content update, I think. (0:36:42) Al: Content and feature update. (0:36:43) Al: So this is. Yeah, it’s. (0:36:45) Al: Yes. Yes, they are. (0:36:51) Al: This is one of those ones that I probably do want to play at some point, but. (0:36:55) Kelly: It looks really cute, too. It really does. I would like to play this. (0:36:55) Al: It does. It does. (0:36:58) Kelly: I mean, me too. I’m a sucker for collection in general. (0:36:58) Al: It’s also creature collection, and I’m a sucker for creature collection. (0:37:01) Al: Well, yes, that too. That too. (0:37:07) Al: That too. (0:37:08) Al: Yeah. Stardew Valley. (0:37:12) Al: Concerned Ape is continuing to just trickle things out. (0:37:15) Kelly: He’s been just dropping things. Yeah, like he it’s like it’s making me so annoyed because I’m like I don’t want to play stardew. I like I always do I do I’m actively spending my life fighting the urge to play stardew valley [laugh] (0:37:17) Al: I know. (0:37:18) Al: No, you do. You do, though. You do. (0:37:25) Al: You don’t lie. You want to play. (0:37:28) Al: What I love is like some of them are like, “here’s the most tiny little thing like this one, which is just a screenshot of wild horseradish juice.” (0:37:42) Kelly: Yeah. (0:37:42) Al: And my reaction was, “Oh, is that not already in the game? Okay!” (0:37:43) Kelly: I literally when I looked at it I was like oh yeah you can’t do anything with horseradish can you? (0:37:51) Al: So some of them are like this tiny thing where it’s just like, “Oh yeah, the update’s gonna have horseradish juice!” (0:37:58) Al: And then there was the one a few weeks ago which was like, “Here’s just like detailed ten bullet points of what’s coming in the update.” (0:38:04) Al: And you’re like, “Oh, okay!” (0:38:05) Kelly: Yep, listen, I would take every single one of these, I’m like, cool, awesome, great. (0:38:12) Kelly: But yeah, no, I saw this one and I was like, oh, another thing for me to micromanage. (0:38:18) Al: ALICE (KEEPER) Kelly, did you ever play any of the 1.5 update stuff? So that’s Ginger Island and stuff like that. (0:38:24) Kelly: Yes, so I started with actually my first Switch game. (0:38:26) Al: ALICE (KEEPER) I mean, I think it was for a lot of people. (0:38:28) Kelly: Yes, um… (0:38:32) Kelly: But I got my Switch a year later, so I was a year behind everybody. (0:38:33) Al: ALICE It came out nice and early in 2017 and yeah. Fair enough. Yeah. That’s all right, (0:38:39) Kelly: But I played it then, yes, and then I played it two years ago. (0:38:41) Al: so were the updates. (0:38:45) Al: Yeah. (0:38:45) Kelly: Yes, so Ginger Island had come out, which was fun because that wasn’t in my initial playthrough. (0:38:47) Al: Yeah. (0:38:49) Al: Yeah. (0:38:50) Al: I’m not sure. (0:38:51) Kelly: So that was really fun to go out. (0:38:54) Kelly: I feel like that really opened up a whole new part of the game and like extended it nicely. (0:38:57) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:39:06) Al: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, that’s what he’s doing, right? Like, just keep playing this game, please. (0:39:09) Kelly: Yeah. But I mean, he does it in such a good way. Like people would play this game even if he didn’t go out there and release, you know, updates to it. People would be replaying it it constantly anyway yep (0:39:12) Al: Here’s more stuff. I know. (0:39:21) Al: and people would pay for the updates and he just gives them out for free. (0:39:24) Kelly: yep what a good guy yes yes but I mean we might have talked about a game a few minutes ago that might have been doing a different thing no but I fully agree with your point you know it’s like (0:39:26) Al: I mean, he is a millionaire, so you know, like it’s easier to be a good guy when you’re a millionaire. But yes, it is. (0:39:38) Al: Absolutely. No, I don’t. Yep, I don’t. I’m not disagreeing with you. I’m not not trying to take it away from him. You’re absolutely right. (0:39:51) Al: I haven’t played the 1.5 stuff with Ginger Island and stuff like that. So I need to, (0:39:54) Kelly: Oh really? Okay. (0:39:56) Kelly: That might be the best, because especially it seems like he is adding quite a few things, so why not wait? (0:39:57) Al: it’s on my list of like, I really need to do this. So I’m trying to decide maybe I just wait for 1.6 to come out and do it all at the same time. (0:40:06) Al: Yeah, yeah, and I’m going to have to cover that. (0:40:11) Kelly: I will say there is one thing in Ginger Island, there’s like one thing that you really have to like hope for the luck of finding. (0:40:20) Kelly: So that can be a little frustrating, but I think if you kind of… (0:40:24) Kelly: I think the issue is more so when you don’t leave enough stuff to do at home to. (0:40:29) Kelly: And you kind of save Ginger Island for the very end and then you’re like, “Ugh, where is this thing? Come on, show me your…” (0:40:36) Kelly: Like, because it’s like one of those things where you can only collect a few things a day of it. (0:40:39) Kelly: Oh, I always do a new save. (0:40:39) Al: And then I need to make the decision of do I do a new save or do I continue my existing save. (0:40:45) Kelly: I know I should probably go back, but I love a restart. (0:40:49) Kelly: Like, I’ve got like five different room worlds because I just like… (0:40:52) Al: So mostly I have like one that I have done most of the things in, and then I have like a bunch of others that are like random challenges and a random multiplayer one. (0:40:52) Kelly: Could I go back and keep– (0:40:54) Kelly: I’m playing them sure. (0:41:12) Al: See I’m the opposite, I’m like I really should do a new one and see how it changes things because obviously it’s not. You don’t expedite. I need to do both realistically, right? Because it changes things. Exactly. Yeah. (0:41:16) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:41:18) Kelly: It’s like you get to see how you strategize and how you handle things differently and like, you know Going back in with like new knowledge and like all that stuff Like like this this the one I did two years ago, I have notes I take notes when I play this game So I have like field guides I’m like, you know the best things to do with this and each season and what you should pickle and what you should Kagan like blah blah blah like what Fisher what’s Oh Yeah Oh, no, I I love a (0:41:32) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:41:46) Al: Yeah, yeah. Oh, see, I don’t pickle and keg because I just can’t be bothered. I just go, (0:41:54) Al: what is the most expensive crop? Like the most for selling. And I just go with that. (0:41:59) Al: Like, I’m just like, I do like mayo and cheese and stuff like that. But I’m like, I don’t, (0:42:04) Al: I can’t be bothered with like putting my crops and these other things and waiting. No, I just sell. Like, I know you can make more money, but I don’t, I don’t want to do that. (0:42:12) Kelly: I love a good micromanage. It’s not even about the money because I’m a third point I don’t need more money. It’s literally just about me having tasks to do. But yeah, no, I’m like, I… At certain points I was like, okay, so if I place this many kegs in the basement, can I still access them if I walk around this way? (0:42:31) Al: Yes, what’s the optimum strategy? I think the problem is that they figured it out. There is a right answer to that in everything. (0:42:43) Kelly: Yes, which I don’t, I don’t want to sound like I’m one of those people who are doing things to the T perfect, like gotta have every second count. (0:42:54) Kelly: Like I definitely do things in my own little stupid way. (0:42:58) Al: Yeah. Yeah. I also quite like trying different things. So there was one quite early on with the podcast where me and Rachelle were trying to see how much money we could make just from mining. It was good fun. It was good fun. Yeah. Yeah. (0:42:59) Kelly: But there are certain things that I try to make sure I’m doing them correctly, I quote unquote correctly. (0:43:07) Kelly: So that I can get money and stuff from them, especially early game. (0:43:10) Kelly: Once you get to a certain point, it’s like, oh my God, do I need money? (0:43:20) Kelly: that’s a that’s a fun challenge I think those are like fun ways to like how can I do this how can I do this differently oh yeah like I’m a I’m I do this in every like game essentially but I love fishing for So I’m always like a sucker for that, but I feel like (0:43:28) Al: Yeah, exactly. And it’s like, you can actually make a lot of money that way. (0:43:32) Al: And it’s just fun to try the different ways of doing that because (0:43:50) Kelly: My last one I tried to like avoid that more so but It’s always fun to just try different ways do different things (0:43:54) Al: Fair enough. (0:43:56) Al: I also saw someone do a challenge which was like you can’t leave the farm and that was quite interesting. (0:44:06) Al: So they didn’t get a lot of seeds is part of the point, right? (0:44:11) Al: So obviously you get them from foraging, you can get seeds just from foraging. (0:44:15) Al: But yeah, a lot of it was just having to like sell the things you find around the farm. (0:44:21) Al: They used the four carner’s farm. (0:44:22) Kelly: No chickens? (0:44:25) Al: They used the four carner’s farm, so you get a little bit of everything. (0:44:29) Kelly: uh okay okay but like no interactions with people unless they like literally come to visit you that’s crazy but I feel like you know that’s like the it’s like nose locking yourself into stardew it’s fun yeah but stardew yay (0:44:35) Al: Yep. Yeah. (0:44:38) Al: Exactly, exactly, exactly. Lots of different ways to do it. (0:44:47) Al: So yeah, wild horseradish juice. (0:44:49) Al: I will probably never make it. (0:44:52) Kelly: I i will say who is drinking this I love horseradish I love spiciness I love (0:44:53) Al: Yeah. But just pure horseradish juice. (0:44:59) Kelly: bloody marys I love burning my sinuses I would never listen there’s been times in my life where my sinuses have been really bad and somebody was like hey if you put apple cider vinegar up your nose it’ll help and i’ve done that this sounds wild I would never do this I have never heard of horseradish as being described as sweet (0:45:05) Al: No! (0:45:10) Al: It’s description is a sweet nutritious beverage. (0:45:23) Al: I think there’s lots of sugar in that. (0:45:25) Kelly: Yeah, it has to be like really pickled or whatever. (0:45:29) Kelly: That’s crazy. (0:45:33) Al: The final news is we have a new game announced. We don’t have a lot about it. It’s called Echoes of the Plum Grove and it is coming to Kickstarter soon and its little tagline is “Build a thriving community across generations in this cosy historical farm simulation”. (0:45:51) Kelly: I think that’s pretty cute, like that’s a different idea because I feel like you know in a lot of these you can have a kid or something or a family but it doesn’t really go anywhere. (0:45:58) Kelly: Like I feel like this is very much so not how I play The Sims but how a lot of people play The Sims where they’ll make generational things and like the generations start to interact with each other and it’s like really interesting, it’s a very long-term way of doing it. (0:46:08) Al: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. A few games have kind of done a little bit of this, like, I think the new Harvest Moon does it where you can grow. You still stay as your same character, though. (0:46:29) Al: But there was… Oh, what was the… A Wonderful Life did this as well, didn’t it? You can play as your child at a certain point, I think. (0:46:39) Al: So yeah, there is apparently a lot more information on Steam that I didn’t notice until now. (0:46:43) Kelly: I did have to go open the Steam page because the Kickstarter basically had nothing on it. (0:46:44) Al: I will link that in the show notes. (0:46:47) Al: Yes, well, that’s the thing, that’s why I didn’t think we had a huge amount, but it is apparently on Steam. (0:46:53) Al: Well, the page is up on Steam, and it says it’s coming out in 2024, but I suspect (0:46:59) Kelly: I would also. I like his little cute like

Join us for a fascinating discussion as we unpack Amazon unBoxed 2023, exploring the most exciting releases such as generative AI and more that can level up your advertising game. Our co-host from Pacvue, Anne Harrell provides us with a unique perspective on the advertising industry. Let's start with our chat with Jeff Cohen, Principal Evangelist, Advertising API at Amazon, as he shares his transition journey and the biggest differences he's noticed. Listen in as we dive into the role of ad tech in digital transformation and its implications for brands. We examine Amazon Ads' new offerings like generative AI and sponsored TV, which promise to revolutionize brand imagery and audience engagement. Get the inside scoop on Amazon PPC and new-to-brand metrics that could redefine your brand's success measurement. We also explore Amazon Publisher Cloud, a game-changing technology for publishers that promises unique and differentiated opportunities for advertisers. Get to know Miranda Chen, the director of growth and modernization for Amazon Marketing Cloud, as she walks us through its potential. Learn how lookalike audiences can help your brand reach new customers and how templatized analytics can make AMC more accessible. We also examine Amazon Marketing Stream and Rapid Retail Analytics, which provide valuable data on retail signals. Discover how sponsored products can appear on platforms like Pinterest and the features that make Amazon's new Sponsored TV offering a game-changer. All this and more, right here on our podcast!   In episode 504 of the Serious Sellers Podcast, Bradley, Anne, and our special guests discuss: 00:00 - Amazon unBoxed 2023 04:31 - Insights on Amazon and Advertising Growth 08:29 - Sponsored TV and Ad Tech Announcements 12:29 - Embracing Change in Amazon Advertising 20:40 - Amazon Advertising Full Funnel Solutions 23:39 - Benefits and Capabilities of Demandside Platforms 28:25 - Lookalike Audiences for Reaching New Customers 34:59 - Amazon Marketing and Rapid Retail Analytics 41:15 - Amazon's Sponsored TV Announcement ► Instagram: instagram.com/serioussellerspodcast ► Free Amazon Seller Chrome Extension: https://h10.me/extension ► Sign Up For Helium 10: https://h10.me/signup (Use SSP10 To Save 10% For Life) ► Learn How To Sell on Amazon: https://h10.me/ft ► Watch The Podcasts On YouTube: youtube.com/@Helium10/video Transcript Bradley Sutton: Today we've got a special episode here at Amazon Unbox 2023 where we're going to talk about all of their releases, like generative AI and sponsored brand hats, and also a lot of cool things like sponsored TV. How cool is that? Pretty cool, I think. If you're like me, maybe you were intimidated about learning how to do Amazon PPC, or maybe you think you just don't have the hours and hours that it takes to download and sort through all of those sponsored ads reports that Amazon produces for you. Adtomic for me allowed me to learn PPC for the first time, and now I'm managing over 150 PPC campaigns across all of my accounts in only two hours a week. Find out how Adtomic can help you level up your PPC game. Visit h10/adtomic for more information. That's h10.me/adtomic. Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Serious Sellers Podcast by Helium 10 I'm your host, Bradley Sutton, and this is the show that's completely BS free, unscripted and unrehearsed organic conversation about serious strategies for serious sellers of any level in the e-commerce world. We're here at Amazon Unboxed in New York. I've been on the road for like three weeks and there's a second there where I wasn't quite sure where. I was. I've been in so many countries lately, but we've got a co-host today and from Pacvue, and how's it going? Anne: Great. How are you doing? Bradley Sutton: I'm just delightful. Now, what is your background? What do you do at Pacvue? Anne: Yeah, so I'm a product solutions director for DSP at Pacvue, so I do basically anything related to DSP and AMC help with our product road mapping, help with strategy for some of our enterprise level clients doing customer within AMC marketing you name it, I probably do it. Bradley Sutton: How long have you been at Pacvue? Anne: I've been at Pacvue for coming up on four years now, so about three and a half years total. A lot has changed since I joined. I started at Pacvue focusing on our managed services team, so I was primarily working with some of our strategic accounts, helping to build out their capabilities, doing strategy not just for DSP but across kind of omni-channel focuses, so for search as well. Prior to working at Pacvue, I actually worked in an agency in Austin, Texas, where I'm normally based, where I again did omni-channel strategy for enterprise level accounts. So my background is not just with programmatic and DSP, but I really gravitated to it. It's just one of those types of advertising channels that really allows you to have a lot of flexibility and creativity and really is conducive to innovation. So I really enjoy working on the DSP side of things. Bradley Sutton: Cool. Now what did you go to school for? Anne: I went to school for advertising, so I think I'm in the right place. Bradley Sutton: Okay, so you're right. Where did you go to school at? Anne: It's called St Edward's University. It's in Austin, Texas. So I've been in Austin since I went to school and I just never left about a decade. Bradley Sutton: Okay, I was about to say, because you don't sound like you were born and raised in Austin. Anne: I was not Okay. Bradley Sutton: What were you born and raised? Anne: Well, where I was born was Hattiesburg, Mississippi, but raised is a harder question. I moved about 10 times before I graduated high school. So you pick a state, I probably was raised there. Bradley Sutton: Okay, cool, yeah, because I was like wait a minute, she doesn't sound like a native Texan here. Anne: I know no accent yet. Bradley Sutton: All right, maybe 15, 20 years from now you might have a little twang in here. Anne: Right, right, I actually have a little bit of a Southern accent, I think I kind of got rid of it as I moved around. Bradley Sutton: Okay, cool. Now what are you? We're going to be talking to some people that probably people have never heard of podcasts, right? You know there are exactly executives here at Amazon who are you most excited to talk to today. Anne: If I were to have to say, my favorite subject matter is definitely the DSP AMC side of things, and I know that we're speaking to Kelly, who's the VP of DSP, so that's obviously a great place to start. We're also going to speak to Miranda, who is a director for AMC at Amazon, so I think there's going to be a lot of really great content around that. But in general, we're also talking to a lot of people who are very broadly focused across all of ads, and so I think we'll have something for everyone in this one. Bradley Sutton: Yeah, so you guys might be. There might be some newbies out there, don't tune out. This is stuff that you're going to need to know If you're an advanced seller. We're going to talk about some stuff that you guys might be able to use right away. That was just announced this week at Amazon Unbox, so let's go ahead and hop right into the interviews, all right. First up, we've got my brother from another mother here, jeff Cohen. Jeff, how's it going? Jeff: Everything is great. So great to see you, so great to see the whole Helium 10 Pack View team at this conference. It's great to catch up with everybody. Bradley Sutton: Yeah, Now you've been in the game longer than me. I remember the very first conference I spoke at. You were a speaker and you were already a veteran speaker at that time. You know side note that that conference there probably had the best food I've ever had at the conference. This is probably the second best Like. Jeff: I'm really impressed with the offerings here. Yeah, I'm curious what conference that is, but we don't have to go into that now. Bradley Sutton: But it was right here in New York. But you were on the SaaS side. You know, like I am now. Now you're at Amazon, like what's been the biggest you know kind of eye-opening thing or difference, now that you're on the other side of the aisle. Jeff: Yeah, interesting because I always like to joke that you know I drink the Amazon Kool-Aid before I ever like came here. I've been an Amazon like fanboy since like 2005 when I started textbookscom and it's been interesting because I'm in a unique position where I can bring the outside in and the inside out, and I think that you know, one of the many things that I've learned is maybe like the patience that you have to have with Amazon Maybe I didn't have as much patience when I was on the outside and the amount of time that it takes for some of the things to develop at Amazon. But when they like grow and they go to scale, it then moves at like this rocket ship pace. And so I think you're starting to see that with some of the tools, like AMC or even like you know what's happening with, like Amazon Studios and some of the new, you know productions that are coming out, you have this like rocket ship pace of what's happening in terms of the development and the new opportunities and how advertisers are using the technology, and so you have to kind of be patient when new things come out. So when you have a totally new product like Sponsored TV, you got to realize that it takes a little bit of time to kind of figure out how does it work into the individual advertisers media mix, and so that's the measurement work for each brand along the way. But then once it kind of gets up to full speed, you get to see like how it all works and you know and how it's really excelling brand growth. Bradley Sutton: Yeah, now we're going to be interviewing a lot of your colleagues here about some very specific announcements that happened here at Unboxed and before I ask you to give a rundown, you know, one of the things that was announced today it's on the website too is about the new generative AI that can help people doing Sponsored Brand Ads to generate some new creatives. Can you talk about that just a little bit? Jeff: Yeah, I think there were like three themes to the keynote today that I kind of jotted down. One was this idea of, like digital transformation and one was this idea of like how ad tech plays in in a responsible way. And then the third one was like how we reinvent, right, how we have reinvent what's possible. That was said numerous times, and I think Gen AI kind of fits into almost all three of those categories. And you know, we saw a lot of opportunity, a lot of new changes with Gen AI that have come out of AWS. We saw a lot of changes with Gen AI that came out of Amazon Accelerate, and now we're starting to see some come out of Amazon ads and I'll you know it's cool, right, we can take a product and we can turn that product into a full lifestyle image. And I think it's if you can just start to kind of think about where the possibilities go from there and what else brands can do and how we can enable that, either with what Amazon ads is doing or with what our partners are doing right, because it doesn't always have to be invented by us at Amazon it's really making it easier for brands to be able to take advantage of this technology that maybe was a little expensive or time consuming or difficult to use, and now it's all done with prompts and it's really simple and easy and that's really cool yeah. Bradley Sutton: Now, what about some of the other announcements? Say you have any. You know things that stick out that you're especially excited for. Jeff: Yeah, I think that what we're doing I mentioned it during our opening segment but Sponsored TV, I think is a really cool one and you know, in short, it's democratizing the ability for brands to be able to place ads into our streaming portfolio right so across Prime Video, free V and all the other channels that we have that I can't even remember them all because I'm supposed to think so quickly and I think that's really cool. And again, like there's no budget for that, you do have to have the creative, but Amazon has services that can help you make that creative or there's third parties that can help you make that creative. And I thought that was a really exciting announcement that was made, you know, on the heels of the announcement that was made a month ago. It was kind of reinforced about like what's happening with Prime Video and it moving to an ad supported network, creating a ton of, you know, new inventory for brands to begin to explore, and that's really super exciting as we start to go into it. And then there was like a bunch around ad tech and like what's happening around measurement and I know, like from you know, we're all near and dear to this idea that measurement is critical to our overall success and new metrics that are being released, making it available to understand how new to brand customers are impacting the business, and I think those are all really important for us to be thinking about because we have to close the loop. As advertisers and as we move to this cookie-less world right, it's signs point to it happening in 2024, we have to find ways to be able to close the funnel and understand how our ads are working, and Amazon's working really hard to help brands be able to do that, both within our suite and also when you're outside of our suite. Anne: Yeah, you mentioned the new. New to brand metrics, new to brand consideration metrics, I think is what we're calling them. Can you walk our listeners through what those really are? Jeff: Well, when you're looking at new to brand, right from like a super high level, new to brand is starting to give you this metric that's beyond ROAS, and it's starting to allow brands to look at who was not buying their brand within the last 12 months. Who's now buying their brand, and there's a suite of metrics now that are available for you to be looking at so that, as you're looking at different inflection points of your advertising, you can start to actually dial down into what action you're looking for people to take. And I think that's what's really cool. And it's like this evolution and brands have to think through this evolution like one of the simplest ways to think of this, right for people who maybe, like this concept's a little far for them. One of the simplest ways to think of this is around this idea that, like, if you're trying to get more awareness of your product, when you're looking at a video, you don't want to just see video views, you want to see how long they've been watching the video, and so you might start optimizing your campaign based on video length, how many people get to a half the video or three quarters of the video. And so, when you start to get into the new to brand type of metrics, you're actually saying, okay, I want incremental growth and by definition is, you know, sales you wouldn't have had before. One of the best ways to measure that is by people who are new to your brand, and so by having multiple metrics now to be able to understand how those are being impacted, you can now go back into tools like AMC and see how that funnel is working and which ones are driving the actual you know points that you want to drive and that that's really cool, right, it's, it's very excited about. Anne: I'm very excited too, yeah. Bradley Sutton: Awesome, all right. Last question for you know maybe not something that was released here at Unbox, but you know you're very active on LinkedIn. You see what people are posting about. You know I'm sure you look at metrics about what advertisers are using. Is there something in Amazon advertising that you feel is is kind of being slept on or not enough people are talking about it, that you think more people should be using it? Jeff: I mean more people should be using Helium 10 and Pacvue. Bradley Sutton: That goes without saying. Jeff: Okay, besides that, I think that you know, bradley, you and I get asked this question a lot, right? And? And our answer is always it depends. And I think that, instead of like saying, like this is a tool that you should be using or this is a a, an advertising function, you should be trying, I think that advertisers need to be open to the idea of test and learn, and I think the more you can train your mental model to work in a test and learn type of environment, the more open you are to change, because the only thing that's constant is going to be change. Right, and you started by saying like, where this industry was years ago when we both started, think about all the change that's happened and all the change that's occurred, and the brands that have not just survived but thrived through that are brands that have taken advantage of new opportunities, have invested by testing and learning and have then double down on the things that we're working. And I don't mean to oversimplify it, right, but it's not a very specific answer of like, use helium tens tool for keyword, blah, blah, blah, but it's like that's just one piece that you then use to implement the strategy. So work backwards. What's your goal. How are you gonna get there? And then figure out what tools you need to help you scale. Bradley Sutton: Awesome. All right, well, jeff. Thank you so much for joining us. We've been trying to get you on the podcast for like two years. I'm happy it finally happened and we'll definitely be keeping in touch. Appreciate it. Thanks, guys. All right, next up, we've got Kelly here. Now, Kelly, can you go ahead and introduce yourself? Tell us what you do at Amazon. Kelly: Absolutely so, Kelly McClain. I lead our demand side platform at Amazon, so we call it ADSP, and excited to be here. Bradley Sutton: Thank you for the time. Awesome, Awesome. Now you were, you know. Just saw you on stage a few minutes ago. What were your big reveals of the day? Kelly: Yeah, really good question. So I think if, if you think about Amazon ads and kind of where we've, where we've been and where we're going, we've really continued to make a lot of progress on on how, what we've been building a lot of our goals. We're focused a lot on interoperability with our ad tech solutions, so making it easier to use. We're focused a lot on performance improvements and then again, all of this is underpinned by making sure that we're putting privacy at the core of everything that we're doing, and so, with that in mind, we've been kind of launching this week in particular, a lot of different updates around, as you think about planning, activating and measuring, right. So within planning, we were launching Cross Channel Planner, which is a new way for you to really think about full, full funnel planning. We announced Amazon Publisher Cloud, which is the new clean room technology for publishers, which we're really excited about. We've been making a lot of performance improvements to the demand side platform, both with the user interface as well as the backend performance, and then we've also been been launching a lot more on our measurement capabilities, right, so making sure that marketers are getting the insights real time, making it a lot easier for them to kind of understand. You know how they should be looking at performance and where they should be making future investments. So we're excited about it. It's going to be a really fun week. Bradley Sutton: Awesome, awesome. We have our resident DSP nerd here, Ann, so she's going to go ahead and ask have some follow up. Anne: Definitely. Amazon Publisher Cloud was announced today, which is a big step for your publishing partners, obviously. Do you see any benefit for advertisers with this release? Kelly: Yes, definitely, and you know, I think to your point. I mean we've had, if you think about kind of clean room technology, right, really starting with cloud solutions. Then Amazon marketers cloud right thinking for marketers on how we can help support them. And Amazon publisher cloud it's going to be a mouthful after I'm speaking all morning. So excuse me, but you know that's really about a solution for publishers, right, giving them much more of the ability to pair any unique insights that they have right Demographics that they might know, of course, with folks who are coming to their site and then pairing that with Amazon Ads data. But the real core of that is, of course, providing opportunities for publishers but making it easier for them to connect with advertisers, right, advertisers. Often that you know there's so many different deal opportunities out there. A lot of the kind of deal process is very manual today and it's hard to discover the right deal and knowing which deal is right for you to reach your audience and so you know. A simple example, right is, if you're, let's say, you're a common website and you know the different demographics that are coming to your site every day, but by layering on Amazon audiences, you might realize, oh, I actually have pet food lovers who or sorry, pet food lovers- I have pet lovers who are coming to my site that I didn't realize, and so then that offers publishers the ability to maybe customize some unique deal opportunities to advertisers who might be trying to target pet lovers right, or specific brands who might be selling pet food, and it provides much more unique, differentiated opportunities, and we actually had a recent test with NBC Universal and they were able to offer three and a half times more reach than what they'd seen in the past, which is really exciting. So we see this as beneficial to both marketers and to publishers by really making it a lot more simple to connect with audiences. Bradley Sutton: At the end of the day, you know, pet food lovers are pets in about 10 years at Unbox. I predict like there's going to be some DSP where pets can actually base, you know, based on what they see on TV. Anne: They've already made more of the food, Exactly exactly, so we just launched something. Kelly: And if that's possible, maybe pets will be transformed into some sort of language that they can then activate. Anne: I think so, I think so. I don't even want to think about that. Kelly: I know, I never really thought about that? Anne: Yeah, that's very exciting. So, essentially for the advertisers listening, it's going to make your reach potentially broader but also more relevant, right? So the publishers have the ability to make targeting more relevant Absolutely Great. Another big announcement was the cross-channel planner. Yes, so can you walk us through how you think the ability to forecast reach will change how advertisers perform through their DSP program? Yeah, absolutely. Kelly: I mean, I think one of the biggest challenges today, as you all know right, is the fragmentation of channels and information and the overload of signals, right, and so that's where we're excited with Cross Channel Planner providing more of the ability to help marketers understand who they should be reaching right across the funnel and get much more information on how to kind of more efficiently drive their spend. In the past, we've launched Channel Planner, so that was our first product for mostly catered towards streaming TV, right, and how do you think about reach curves and how do you make sure that you're delivering against that for upfront pitches and so forth, and this is really kind of the next iteration to driving more efficient spend. So, ultimately, we think this is going to be kind of the next step of just providing much more granularity across all of the Amazon ads products on Amazon beyond Amazon, to make it easier to figure out. Okay, where should I be allocating my budget in the best way possible? We had a baby brand who actually was reaching audiences and they activated. So they leveraged Cross Channel Planner, activated via the DSP, and then they used custom advertising to direct customers to their online store and actually had four and a half times click through rate and 11% increase in impurchase rate, which was pretty cool to see. So again, I think the ability to plan and then easily activate is something that we're really committed to and excited about. Anne: Do you think this will be applicable for advertisers who are advertising both on Amazon and off, so more so that third party placement this will help plan for that as well. Absolutely. Kelly: So Amazon is known for retail media and driving conversions in the Amazon store, and we've been making so many investments over the past several years to really drive much more full funnel solutions and making all of our solutions work for all types of advertisers whether you're an advertiser that sells on Amazon or not because we're really excited about the power of again combining Amazon signals with marketers, third party and third party signals in a way that you can actually drive conversions, drive reach and have more of a full funnel experience and conversation. And that's where our Amazon publisher direct team comes into play, where we have a lot of these relationships and can reach anyone across the internet. But we've also been investing in modeled audiences and the performance through the DSP, and so a lot of people are kind of thinking about the loss of cookies in a negative way. We actually see this as an opportunity. We see this as a way to really innovate and rethink how marketers can potentially reach people in a privacy, safe way. That also drives performance, and so this is why we've also been investing in our modeled audience solutions right so, especially as we think about driving sales or reach off of Amazon, and we've been seeing over 25% increase delivery with a lot of the solutions, as well as 12% less cost per click per impression, which I'm barely able to talk. I'm going to lose my voice by the end of this day. But so, yeah, I think all of these from again, the planning, how you can activate all of the performance improvements we've been doing within our DSP we're excited. We'll continue to help accelerate marketers across full funnel wherever they want to reach people, which we're thrilled about. Anne: Definitely the ever looming third party cookie deprecation. Yes, exactly. Kelly: Yeah, a lot of energy, but understandably, and I think it's the right thing for us to rethink how we can really connect marketers and people in the right way, moving forward. Anne: Agreed, agreed. Another thing that was mentioned was the bidding enhancements that are now going to be available through the DSP program. So, essentially, you pick a KPI and you let Amazon do all the bid optimization in order to get to that KPI. Do you think this is going to change costs for advertisers, like, will CPMs go down in highly competitive categories or go up because of this automation? Kelly: Good question and, being a DSP enthusiast, I'm sure you know that our system has been really hard to use in the past. We've heard feedback from customers and partners that it was very complex, and so we've really been. So this goal seeking bidder, as well as re-augmenting our interface so that it's much more anchored on goals, has been paramount. We want to make it easier to use the DSP. We want to understand what is your goal, what are you trying to do? What outcome are you trying to drive for your business? And we've been making a lot of user interface improvements. And then the goal seeking bidder, on the back end to your point, I'm not sure what it will do in terms of you know, I can't talk to overall pricing in the system, right, but what I can say is that we're already seeing, you know, up to 40% reduction in CPAs, where we're able to better optimize against a goal, and we're seeing marketers just really gravitate towards the ability to kind of have much more of a simple experience. But we also believe in control, and so I think that's one of the powers that we think the Demand side platform has is, if you want all of the customization, if you want the complexity, we have that right. You can really adjust whatever types of bids that you want. You can layer on various different types of audiences. You can play around with different creatives. You can, you know, make a ton of different ads to try and test and at the same time, if you want a more simple, easy experience, you know what your goal is. We're able to help optimize and provide recommendations on the best way to do that. So we see it as kind of a nice balance in providing marketers kind of that wide range of capabilities, because we think there's a lot of different discussions in the industry right now on what way folks are going to be going. Bradley Sutton: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time and thank you for all you do at Amazon. We appreciate it. Kelly: Thank you for the partnership. Appreciate it, of course. Bradley Sutton: Thanks, thank you All right Now we've got Miranda. Miranda, this is our first time meeting you, so can you introduce yourself and tell us what your position is at Amazon? Miranda: Absolutely. I'm Miranda Chen. I'm the director of growth and modernization for Amazon Marketing Cloud, or AMC for short. I've been at Amazon for 11 and a half years now, live in the Bay Area and at AMC I lead several teams responsible for product and engineering, developing our audience activation capabilities, making AMC easier to use for more and more customers, as well as our go to market and customer enablement activities. Bradley Sutton: All right Now. We have a wide variety of listeners, anywhere from brand new people selling on Amazon to humongous billion dollar brands. Now, the billion dollar brands probably know all about AMC, but some of our newer ones might not understand that. Maybe there can feel like wait, marketing, stream, marketing, AMC, there's all these acronyms. So can you just give a quick, maybe 30 second, one minute introduction about what is AMC? Miranda: Yeah for sure. So Amazon Marketing Cloud, or AMC, is Amazon ads as clean room, so it's private and secure by design. Each advertiser has their own campaign signals of all their various Amazon ad spend within their particular instance. So we have signals from sponsored products, sponsored brands, streaming TV effectively like all of the actual campaign events and enables custom flexible analytics on those signals. And then it also enables advertisers to be able to upload their own first party signals or third party signals so you can think of, like product catalog, retail conversions, things like that, and so then you can generate really really flexible insights, typically using SQL, such as path to conversion, reach and frequency, overlap analysis and then actually take actions on them. Bradley Sutton: Cool, so most of our listeners probably weren't able to attend here at Unbox. What's the big release for your department here at Unbox? Miranda: Yeah, so we had a couple different releases specifically related to AMC that I can touch on. The first was AMC template analytics. So it takes some of our most popular queries, such as path to conversion, reach and frequency, and then allows users to be able to generate those insights without needing to touch any codes. So that's a pretty exciting development, particularly since we know that not everybody no SQL has taught themselves SQL overnight. And then the second one was AMC lookalike audiences. So we already have the capability where one can generate a custom audience based on specific parameters. So let's just say, an advertiser saw, wanted to create an audience of folks that had seen their detail page view or even added to cart but didn't actually activate and then wanted to drive better performance. They could create a particular, they could run a query, generate that insight and push that directly to the DSP. So that's one way. That's AMC rule based audiences. And then now we launched this enhanced capability for lookalike audiences. So it enables effectively exactly what it sounds like. So finding alike audiences based on that same seed, leveraging machine learning in a clean room capacity trained on Amazon, shopper and customer signals, but all still in a private and secure place. Bradley Sutton: All right, you're already starting talking technical terms that are over my head, so let me bring in the smart one of us. And to clean rooms. My room's not clean, I don't know. That's not what we're talking about here, but go ahead and please follow up and make me sound smart here. Anne: Yeah, of course. So I'd like to talk about lookalike audiences more specifically, because this is a way for brands to reach highly relevant, essentially new customers. So do you think this will change the way people are targeting that new to brand customer targeting incrementality? Miranda: Yeah, I mean we think it's going to be a great way for brands to be able to reach more and more shoppers. So, as I mentioned, the lookalike audiences are trained on based on deep, deep ML, based on lots of very, very, very good signals, and then the advertiser can actually leverage, can get to choose what's their specific seed for the audience, like what's the general size of the audience, based on their objective and then also the relevance. So I think it'll be a really key tool as a part of the marketer toolkit. Anne: Yeah, definitely. Do you think lookalike audiences are scalable for brands that maybe have lower purchase data or lower engagement data that are using AMC? Miranda: I think so. I think they're precisely like the brands that actually could benefit from it, right Because they have a small bit of deterministic signals that they actually want to be able to enhance. And then also because AMC is private and secure by design, as I mentioned, they can also choose to upload their own first party or third party signals and then create a seed based on that and then continue to go find additional customers that seem similar to that seed. Anne: Right, I love that you call it a seed, because it sounds like it will grow over time if you're utilizing these tactics, so that's a great way to phrase it. Miranda: Thanks, it didn't come up with it. Anne: Well, we'll give you credit anyways. So you talked about the AMC templatized analytics, right? Is this a way to make AMC more accessible and, if so, are the queries that are available through those templatized analytics? Will it grow over time? What's available through that? Miranda: Yeah, so we think it's a first step towards making AMC easier for more and more customers. So we don't have a specific timeline yet on additional templates, but it is something we'll be continuing to evaluate. We have been talking to different customers and internal teams about how we can also make AMC easier to use through point and click applications as well. We also work with dozens of partners that are making AMC easier to use, either through visualizations or through their own innovative dashboard. So I think through the combination of either homegrown or partner built capabilities, we'll be able to continue to bring AMC insights to more and more customers. Anne: Yeah, pacview is one of those partners. We do have an AMC dashboard Great, I think. Another question that's kind of just in general about AMC do you think there are any verticals or categories that benefit the most from this data, or that you've seen a lot of growth and success with using AMC? Miranda: Yeah, we think of AMC as equal opportunities. So we look at the data a lot. We're very, very data driven surprise, surprise at Amazon and what we've seen is that there's penetration for AMC across brands and partners and agencies as well as across all verticals. So we've seen, certainly, strength from brands that sell on the Amazon store, but also pretty strong results with entertainment, with automotive, financial services. So you can think of someone who's like automotive who might have a bunch of local dealerships. They want to be able to do more fine event grained analyses based on specific geos, and so something like AMC is perfect for that be able to do more precise measurements. So, yeah, certainly we think it's a great product for all, but it really depends on that particular advertiser's objective and then what are the types of signals that they want to bring in and what kind of insights they can generate. Anne: Definitely, it is flexible. Miranda: Exactly Infinite and flexible. Yes, Great. Anne: My last question is just a kind of a fun one. Do you have any specific query or an example of a query that you think was really innovative that's been pulled through AMC that you can recall? Miranda: I think it's probably a generic answer, but I think the Path to Conversion one is probably one of my favorites, just because it's the simplest. I think AMC was actually the first place where an advertiser could see all of their signals across all of the Amazon ad products, and so someone who was buying sponsored products and DSP might not have realized before that they actually were driving better results together, and so Path to Conversion, and actually be able to understand how those two products were interacting, for example, really brought a lot more power and insight, I think, to advertisers. Anne: So I don't think that's generic at all. I love that one too. Miranda: There's a reason. That's core kind of at the top of the instructional query library. Anne: Right. Miranda: Agreed, all right. Bradley Sutton: I have another question for you. I like asking stuff that maybe nobody else is going to ask. When you want to take off your Amazon hat and kick back with a hobby to kind of like balance work life, what's your go-to hobby? Miranda: Well, I have an almost four-year-old so she is probably my hobby in most of the time. I'm going to try and go do fun things on the weekend, whether it's exploring new coffee shops or going to find music. Bradley Sutton: The four-year-old is a coffee drinker, is she? Miranda: No, she's not, but she's an avid consumer of chocolate croissants, and so we sample baked goods in lots of different places. Then mom gets her coffee. I think that's probably it, but in my prior pre-kid years I did a lot more yoga and hiking and things like that. Bradley Sutton: So enjoy those years. You know, my kids are over 20 already, so I wish I had a four-year-old. I remember those days All right. Thank you so much for joining us and you educated me a lot. It sounds like Ann knows all about what you're talking about. It was like a different language to me, so I appreciate you educating us on IMC. Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much. Miranda: Thank you so much. Bradley Sutton: Alright, we've got Teresa here. Teresa, could you go ahead and introduce yourself? Teresa: Sure, I'm Teresa Uthralton. I'm the Director of Partner Development here at Amazon Ads. Bradley Sutton: Awesome, awesome. How long have you been here at Amazon? Teresa: I've been at Amazon for almost 10 years, so I'm approaching that red badge. For those of you that know our badging conventions, Nice, nice. Bradley Sutton: Now you're from here in New York. I've always been in New York, yep. So I'm going to start off with maybe the most important question of the day Julianne's Pizza in Brooklyn. Is that the best representation of New York pizza, or not? Teresa: Oh, that's tough. There's so many really good pizza places now I can't even keep up with them. There's so many. Bradley Sutton: Alright. Well, we're going to have to connect right after this, because I have two days left and I need to maximize my time here. Teresa: Yes, Alright now. Bradley Sutton: We're not here to talk about food here. Teresa: I recommend checking out Roberta's in Bushwick though. Bradley Sutton: Roberta's in Bushwick. I have not been there. Anne: Yes, I think you'll really enjoy that. Bradley Sutton: We're going to that one. Anne: Right now. Yeah, actually, cancel the interview. Let's go there, we go. Yes, of course. Bradley Sutton: Now Anne here is going to ask a lot of the more technical questions, especially those that have to do with enterprise. Now I'm here to represent, kind of like, the voice of the average Amazon seller, and you know, there's some people out there who might not fully know what Amazon marketing stream is first of all. So could you just go ahead and just kind of give a quick elevator pitch for what that is? Teresa: Sure. So Amazon marketing stream is a partner-facing product, and what it does is it provides really granular hourly signals on all our advertising metrics through the Amazon API, and what that means to a seller is that they will be able to get all sorts of insights about their business that normally they would not have known. Bradley Sutton: Okay, all right, I love that. Did you practice this? I didn't even tell you I was going to ask that. All right, cool, cool. How about rapid retail analytics, your other specialty? Teresa: I know I love rapid retail analytics, so Amazon marketing stream obviously totally focused on advertising signals. As we know, so much of what's exciting about Amazon ads is that you got online retail and digital advertising Right, and so rapid retail analytics provides that level of granularity on retail signals, and one of the reasons that's so exciting is that that data used to be available at a daily cadence with a 72-hour lag, so we literally it's almost near real time now, which is a really, really exciting development. Bradley Sutton: Okay, all right. Well, now that I got that out of the way, let me turn it over to the smart one of us too, and for some follow up questions. Anne: Yeah, so I kind of want to double click into Amazon marketing stream, specifically the fact that it was recently released for DSP or it's being extended to DSP. How do you think this will change the way advertisers manage their DSP campaigns now that they have that real time data that we were talking about? Teresa: Well, it's interesting. I think one of the things that I've learned is I've been humbled by our partner's creativity. Right, you know, I was just. I was just telling someone. I joined this team three weeks before Can last year and so I showed up at Can meeting all my partners for the first time, and we had just launched the first version of Amazon marketing stream and I was like this is the coolest product. But what really got me excited was it's a product that we developed based on the feedback we got from partners Like they, they have a seat at the table, they participate in all our betas and our product teams love them, right, because they get like this incredible, you know, they get their hands dirty and they come back and they're like these are the 27 things that are wrong and you need to fix right, which is if you're a product team, that's actually like really helpful, right, so, and what? The thing that's so interesting is like it launched and everyone loved it, but then people are like well, but it only has sponsored products. Right, like, I want more, I want more, I might want more. So I think what's exciting about having ADSP signals in there is that's going to unlock a whole bunch of opportunity around partners that are deep on ADSP Right. Definitely and I think you know, probably a few months from now, we'll have some really interesting case studies, success stories. There's really like almost no end to the creativity of our partners, which is really great because they're such awesome builders. Anne: I agree. I'm curious AMC they not AMS? AMC? I know they get our accurate, our Amazon accurate. I know, there's so many of them Also provides hour by hour data for both DSP and for sponsored ads. Prior to this, especially prior to AMC, but also prior to AMS, this wasn't available for advertisers, so you kind of had to guess when you were running, like day parting or anything along those lines. Do you think the release of the stream data for DSP will eliminate the need for the AMC hourly data? Teresa: Well, I think you got to go back to like what are the use cases that people use other product, right? I think, like what is great about Amazon marketing stream? Right, it's an aggregate, aggregate data pipe, if you think about it, right, and so ultimately that's going to help people build solutions that are evergreen. It's going to help people train AI models right, because how do you train AI models? You need, like, lots of granular signals, right? And whereas the Amazon marketing stream is really about very specific use cases around, like understanding the customer purchase path, understanding incrementality, understanding attribution, so I don't think it's like one or the other, I think it's very like use case specific. Anne: Right. That actually leads perfectly into my next question, which is how you see these two datasets working together with advertisers currently, or how you see in the future that they can work together. Teresa: Yeah. So I think, like what I think is really exciting about partner innovation is, ultimately, I don't think there's ever been a better time to be a marketer, right, like there's that whole age old question about, like I know half my advertising is working, but I don't know which half, and I think we're getting about as close as we're going to get probably in our lifetime, but we're on the cusp of that with a lot of these tools, and so I think the the part about Amazon marketing stream that I think is so exciting is that it will allow the kind of automation that makes brands so much smarter and helps them do more with less. Right, and we're seeing like especially like this year has been an uncertain economic climate for a lot of folks, right, and a lot of a lot of folks are trying to figure out like my budget has been cut or my budget is capped, but I'm being asked to drive more growth Right, and I think, like partners have been able to deliver solutions based on Amazon marketing stream and rapid retail analytics that have really enabled that Awesome. Bradley Sutton: And you had a last question. Anne: I did. It's a fun one. What's your favorite thing about being at conferences like unboxed? Teresa: Oh, it's meeting my partners. You know, I learn so much from from meeting with partners, right, like I said, it's very humbling. The innovation, the creativity, what they teach us about our customers, what they teach us about our products and it's such an incredible learning experience is so energizing. Were you at our our cocktail party last night? Anne: No. Bradley Sutton: I was not. Anne: We had a lot of cocktail parties. I'm sure it was very. Teresa: That was like such a fun buzzing party and I got to meet partners from all over the world. At our award ceremony on Monday we met partners that came from Delhi and it was just really, really exciting. Bradley Sutton: Awesome, all right, well, thank you so much for coming on the show and we appreciate all that you do at Amazon. Teresa: Thank you, thanks guys. Bradley Sutton: All right, we've got Ruslana here. Ruslana, welcome to the show. Ruslana: Thank you, Bradley and Anne, for having me. Bradley Sutton: Are you based here in? Ruslana: New York no, I'm based in Seattle. Bradley Sutton: Seattle. Okay, Seattle was just there for accelerate, lots of rain, but I like. I like Seattle weather a lot. Quick question for you, first of all just how long have you been at Amazon and what is your title there? Ruslana: I'm a vice president of sponsored brands display in TV advertising and I just celebrated my 10 year anniversary Last week awesome, congrats, congrats. Bradley Sutton: now we're gonna go into like what you announced today, but you know something while you were on stage, you also referred to something that was, you know, launched a little bit ago. We're how, now you know, sponsored products can show up on websites like Pinterest and things like that, and one thing that was I have a bad memory, but it was new to me, maybe I knew about it, I guess, didn't know was like it's not just a product that's gonna display, but it'll also show, I believe, like the reviews count and even the shipping time did I, did I hear that right. Ruslana: Well, with sponsor products, our goal is to deliver the same value that Advertisers are getting today by having sponsored products was an Amazon store and some of the critical sort of trusted Amazon attributes, such as reviews, pricing information, as well as Prime delivery promise, are essential elements To helping customers make decisions and actually purchase. So yes you are, you got it right at that. Sponsor products will be containing Kind of product level or Amazon key, amazon trusted information Within these new and exclusive placements across some of these sides to help our advertisers to really go quickly and with ease from discovering something or exploring something to actually purchasing awesome, awesome. Bradley Sutton: That's been. That's been out for a while, but today, when you're on stage, you announce something brand new, and that was sponsored TV. So just give us maybe a quick 30 second, one minute overview of what that is, and Anne has some follow-up questions on that. Ruslana: Well, we see a sponsored TV, tv advertising as a whole, as a critical element of brand-building strategy. That should not be something that Brand cannot do. Any brand of any science should be able to tap into this opportunity and reach these engaged audiences on a big screen In the living room, and so sponsored TV is aiming to accomplish just that. We have worked very closely with our brands and our customers and Backwards from them, to understand what their key pain points have been and why they have not potentially used TV more actively Was in their overall brand-building strategy and, as a result, launch sponsored TV. I'm trying to eliminate three main pain points no guarantee commitments, no spend, minimum creative support and, lastly, access to first-party Amazon, first-party signals. Even when you advertise in TV, powered my machine learning and Right measurement so that advertise and send value, because what we've learned is spend is intimidating, a Lack of the right creative or ability to create the right credit. Just knowing what resonates on such a screen is Hard and intimidating and, lastly, just understanding the value that TV delivers for these brands was difficult. And so, given those three main pain points, that's there. That's why we're sponsored TV. I think to wrap like there is another element right. We at Amazon, we very custom obsessed and in this instance, we have two customers right. We have brands, and we just talked about the value we deliver for the brands, but there's also another key customer, which is the viewers, and for viewers, this is an opportunity to discover diverse collection of brands and products in places where they choose to spend their time. Bradley Sutton: Okay, now I'm just wondering where, like? What kind of placements are these? Are these like, like, like trailers that come up, or are there just actual, you know, banner ads that might pop up while you're watching a TV show? Ruslana: Oh, this is a TV advertising we're talking about, so they are video, so this is not this not sponsored display. Jeff: Yeah. Ruslana: This is video ads and they sponsor TV. Today service was in freebie content. Like I don't know if any of you watch freebie, I do. I love certain shows there, so big fan. So there is freebie content. There is streaming. Do you stream? Do you twitch? Bradley Sutton: Yes. Ruslana: Okay. Well, when you twitch during live streams, that could be. Another opportunity was in. Bradley Sutton: There might be people watch watching this right now on our rebroadcasts of this. Ruslana: People that twitch. This is where the ads would show. And then, lastly, was in a fire TV apps. Bradley Sutton: Okay, excellent yeah. Anne: So it was mentioned that the goal of this campaign, or at least one of the goals, is to make it more accessible to Advertisers who have lower budgets, don't necessarily want to deal with spend minimums etc. Do you feel like there's a lower level of budget sufficiency for running these campaigns, or can it be tested with a small amount of money? Ruslana: Well, we, as I said earlier, right customer obsessed, working back, working backwards from our brands and working backwards for them. I'm really observed that they do want to be able to engage with this audience. Why wouldn't you like if you launched a product that is net new, delightful, on the market? Why wouldn't you want to tell? Like you know, I talked on my keynote about hex glad. I don't know if you don't know, if you have it in your kitchen, but if you don't, I highly recommend. I discovered through our sponsor TV offering the brand and I love the non-stick and also non scratch. Bradley Sutton: Oh no, you had me out when you showed part of the video where it flipped over and nothing Was coming on. Anne: I like that. Ruslana: Very impressive and so at the end of the day, like that is the brand that I'm delighted to cook with every day, and I like my eggs for breakfast. Doesn't matter if it's Monday or Tuesday, Wednesday or Sunday, so in at the end of the day, I think these are the type of brands. They want to engage with the right audience at the right time, and I think this is the right time. Anne: Great. Can you walk us through some of the targeting that will be available with this type of advertising? Most of sponsored ads is keyword basis. That going to be the truth for Sponsored TV, or is it going to be more signal-based behavioral audiences? Ruslana: Well, we always try to help our brands reach the right audiences. So let me Maybe adjust one statement here Most of sponsor brands is not keyword based sponsored products. Keyword based sponsored Products is keywords based. Sponsor brands has keywords Elements in their way and how you express intent. Sponsored display doesn't have that way to express intent. But our aim is to always work with our brands and help them, give them the right tools to express the intent in the best possible way so we can deliver their message and their story in the right place at the right time. So in the case of sponsored TV, the advertisers could use both sort of category based interests and as well as Genre based interest. Bradley Sutton: I've got a spooky brand on Amazon, so like come Halloween season gonna be Maybe throwing some ads on some spooky Halloween shows or horror show. Anne: Perfect, I think we have time for one more question. So I'm curious how do you recommend brands measure success with these campaigns? Do you have specific KPIs that you think you know appropriately measure the success for sponsored TV or anything along those lines? Ruslana: So they reach. Traditional metrics are available similarly how they would be available for any other TV offerings, but in addition, we are sharing branded searches as well as detail page and store page Traffic, and so that is a starting point for the offering. We will continue evolving our metrics and help brands understand the value they're getting out of their sponsored TV offering Wonderful. Bradley Sutton: Thank you so much for joining us today. Ruslana: Thank you for having me and in Bradley.

Kev and Kelly do a second harvest of Graveyard Keeper Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:02:17: What Have We Been Up To 00:06:11: News 00:34:56: Graveyard Keeper 01:14:29: Outro Links Coral Island 1.0 Moonlight in Garland Early Access Sun Haven 1.3 Update Fabledom Fairytales & Community Update Moonstone Island Eerie Items DLC Lonesome Village Physical Edition Garden Story Translation Update Fantastic Haven Graveyard Keeper Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:32) Kevin: this is kelly ween this is kelly ween kelly ween kelly ween and in this show uh we talk about games that are filled with cottage gore yeah hi everyone welcome to the harvest season um with me today is kelly i’m kevin she’s actually gonna be here for well spoilers but then she’s gonna be on next week too she were on last week I bring it up because last year you were on for Halloween we did Cult of the Land. (0:00:47) Kelly: Hey. (0:00:57) Kelly: Oh, I forgot about that. (0:01:02) Kevin: And so, yeah, so, well, that’s exactly right. (0:01:03) Kelly: Is this just like my thing? (0:01:07) Kevin: Um, yeah, you’re Kelly our pumpkin queen. (0:01:10) Kevin: So here we are. (0:01:11) Kevin: Um, she’s all about this stuff. (0:01:14) Kevin: And so we are here today to talk about graveyard keeper, another, um, cottage gore game, um, technically this is a second harvest episode. (0:01:25) Kevin: Uh, Raschelle covered it way back. (0:01:28) Kevin: Like the first Halloween episode. (0:01:32) Kevin: And so I knew about it for years, but I didn’t get a chance to play it until recently. (0:01:37) Kevin: Um, and Kelly has played it significantly. (0:01:40) Kevin: Um, yeah. (0:01:40) Kelly: I only got out of it though last year. I was very new to it, so… (0:01:44) Kevin: Well, still more than I have. (0:01:49) Kevin: I’ve only played, uh, just a handful, relatively speaking. (0:01:51) Kevin: Um, but yeah, that’s, uh, we will get to that soon enough. (0:01:58) Kevin: Um, but before that, as always. (0:02:02) Kevin: Show notes and links and the transcripts are all available on the website for people to see and look at and on. (0:02:09) Kevin: Ooh, and whatnot. (0:02:11) Kevin: Um, and, uh, before the graveyard keeper will do news as always. (0:02:17) Kevin: And more importantly, what have you been up to Kelly? (0:02:19) Kevin: What have you been playing, watching, doing, yada, yada. (0:02:21) Kelly: Um, playing? I’ve really been slacking. I’ve been playing solitaire in Pokemon Go, which is not… It is, but I just… I get stuck playing it, and like, it’s fun, but I’m also like, I could be playing something better. (0:02:37) Kevin: Yeah, I mean it’s like comfort food sometimes it just it’s simple and I get it Exactly sometimes you just need a mindless game Okay, okay madman okay, I have not watched it. I’m familiar with it. That’s the one with That’s the one like 50s (0:02:37) Kelly: Um… [laughs] (0:02:39) Kelly: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It’s like, thoughtless. Um… (0:02:50) Kelly: But I just… (0:02:51) Kelly: I rewatched Mad Men, so that I think is more exciting. (0:03:05) Kelly: yeah like 60s advertising, yeah. (0:03:05) Kevin: add agency right (0:03:07) Kevin: 60s okay all right how how mm-hmm how long is it like the whole thing oh wow that’s longer than expected well that’s cool yeah sure (0:03:07) Kelly: uh I was a big fan when it came out. (0:03:12) Kelly: uh it’s like seven seasons I think? yeah seven seasons. (0:03:18) Kelly: yeah when I first ran I jumped ship like I think after season five. (0:03:25) Kelly: uh I mean it’s not the worst last two seasons but they’re not as good. (0:03:32) Kelly: Good. (0:03:34) Kevin: Um, let’s see, uh, well, I’ve last week we covered paleo pines actually kept up with it a good bit after There was a patch that dropped It’s been a big dinosaur for a week for me. I watched Jurassic Park this week again - (0:03:35) Kelly: What about you? What have you been up to? (0:03:52) Kevin: Boy, that movie’s real good good other than that Yesterday I cried that Super Mario wonder it just came out yesterday (0:04:04) Kevin: the newest one for this switch and It’s a good one Um, I’ll plug the rainbow road radio the other show I do with our mutual friend Alex We did our first look at it on that show. We just recorded and that’ll be dropping soon It’s fantastic it’s There’s I’m only a little bit in like on the second world but like every (0:04:23) Kelly: What do you think of it? (0:04:34) Kevin: level feels like it is introducing something new and different and I mean classic Mario is good you know 2d it’s your standard 2d Mario and whatnot so the gameplay is good and it’s just filled with all sorts of fun surprises and delights I’m going to spoil people on probably the best part that I’ve experienced so far there’s this level it’s like the second or third level you can do. (0:05:04) Kevin: There’s a bunch of piranha plants popping out of the pipes and you run and jump past them and whatnot. (0:05:09) Kevin: And then there’s the Wonder Flower which changes the level in different ways or whatnot. (0:05:15) Kevin: So when you touch the Wonder Flower, it starts this musical production and all the piranha plants just start singing. (0:05:23) Kevin: And it’s incredible, you entice everyone to at least look it up. (0:05:29) Kelly: I actually, I saw it on TikTok this morning and I was like, hmm, okay. (0:05:30) Kevin: It’s just so much fun. (0:05:34) Kevin: It’s so, because it just, right? (0:05:37) Kelly: Very much unexpected. (0:05:38) Kelly: I thought it was like somebody made it at first, like, you know, somebody edited it. (0:05:41) Kevin: Yep, it’s so out of the blue. (0:05:42) Kelly: But no, it was real. (0:05:45) Kevin: Yeah, no, it’s good. (0:05:48) Kevin: It’s really funny and yeah, the game just brings smiles to me every level with all sorts of unexpected twists and turns like that. (0:05:56) Kevin: So yeah, Mario Wonder, two thumbs up for me for sure. (0:05:59) Kevin: Like I said, people can go to Rainbow World Radio to hear more in-depth thoughts. (0:06:04) Kevin: But, yeah, that’s mostly what I’ve been up to. (0:06:08) Kevin: And now, with that, let’s hop on over to the news. (0:06:15) Kevin: We have, as always, a handful of, mostly game updates. (0:06:19) Kevin: Yeah, there’s a lot of game updates for some reason right now. (0:06:24) Kevin: So we’re going to start off talking about Coral Island. (0:06:30) Kevin: Okay, the one, okay, this is a big one. (0:06:34) Kevin: For people who may not remember, Coral Island is your standard Stardew-esque, well, I say standard. (0:06:40) Kevin: It’s got all your fixings, your farming, and it’s on an island, hence the name, right? (0:06:46) Kevin: So it has the tropical aesthetic and whatnot. (0:06:51) Kevin: But the big news is the 1.0 version is launching on November 14th, which is exciting. (0:06:58) Kevin: They have a trailer, and it looks expansive. (0:07:05) Kevin: There’s a lot going on. You have your farm, you can go underwater, you can meet mermaids, you can do your romancing, (0:07:12) Kevin: you can do, I think there’s even a race in there somewhere. All that good stuff. (0:07:18) Kevin: It looks very polished and like a 1.0 game. You can also… (0:07:22) Kelly: Yeah, I was going to say, it definitely looks like there’s, it looks a lot different than like the first, you know, clips I saw of it. (0:07:30) Kevin: Yep, absolutely. Yeah, it’s definitely a game now, for a better way of putting it. (0:07:36) Kelly: Yeah. (0:07:37) Kevin: And you can also dress up as a panda or dinosaur, so you know, there’s a lot going on there. You also get your little animal crossing, you can redecorate your house wherever you want. (0:07:49) Kevin: Oh, you can even have a baby in this, that’s wild. Yeah, that is dropping on November 14th, (0:07:58) Kevin: just a couple of weeks and it will be dropping on Steam, Xbox Series X/S, and PS5 they’re hoping for a 2024 release for a Switch version. Do you think you’ll try Coral Island or look in its general (0:08:12) Kelly: I think I might. I think it definitely looks really cute. I think it depends on if I’m playing anything, you know, when it comes out. I’m trying so hard not to, like, backlog myself. (0:08:22) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, that’s the hard part right too many games Yeah, no, that’s that’s a good idea I definitely have bought back So I respect that I think you can romance a mermaid so, you know, I’m not that going free I wonder how that’s gonna work. How are they gonna move up the land or vice versa? (0:08:43) Kevin: It’s a two-story floor but the bottom floor is underwater [laugh] (0:08:44) Kelly: just uh living in a two separate homes kind of situation there you go (0:08:52) Kevin: I’m down for that, um, yeah, right now it’s only 25 bucks, oh that’s not bad for this, that’s, that looks like a lot of content for 25 bucks, so, um, get excited. (0:09:06) Kevin: Um, oh, oh yeah, okay, sure, yep, that makes sense, that’s fair. (0:09:07) Kelly: Oh, it does say it’s going to release, I think, at $30, though. (0:09:11) Kelly: There’s a note about the price adjustment. (0:09:14) Kelly: But the diving looks really cool. (0:09:16) Kelly: I played a lot of Dave the Diver over the summer, (0:09:19) Kelly: so I feel like I’m still looking for games where I can go exploring like that. (0:09:19) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s good. (0:09:23) Kevin: Yeah, it does look good for like the animation stuff. (0:09:29) Kevin: I’m also a big fan of underwater type games and it looks very expansive down there. (0:09:35) Kevin: So yeah, there’s a post on Steam page with all the updates and everything. You guys can check it out. (0:09:44) Kevin: If you do have early access, it looks like there will be a save reset. (0:09:53) Kevin: So there is that. But, either way, November 14th, I look forward to it. I might actually check it out now. It looks pretty… (0:10:00) Kevin: So, next up we have Moonlight and Garland. (0:10:06) Kevin: I don’t know if this is a game announced, but it’s… (0:10:09) Kevin: Yeah, I guess it is, because they’re announcing their early access October 24th, which will probably already be out by the time people are listening to this. (0:10:18) Kevin: This is… here, let me read their, uh… (0:10:22) Kevin: The elevator pitch, where is it? (0:10:24) Kevin: A cozy open-ended life sim about finding your feet in the big city, decorate your apartment, make new friends, grow too many houseplants, and love your city life. (0:10:33) Kevin: Um, so it… yeah, it’s… it’s city-based, right? So you’re in an apartment, you’re not running a whole farm, but you can grow plants, you can have pets, um, make relationships and whatnot. (0:10:46) Kevin: The art style is… (0:10:48) Kelly: That’s the most realistic farming sim. (0:10:52) Kevin: » [LAUGH] (0:10:54) Kevin: » No, you’re right. (0:10:59) Kevin: » Yeah, yeah, Kelly can. (0:11:00) Kevin: Well, no, you’re in the house now, you’re not in an apartment anymore. (0:11:03) Kelly: No, but definitely, you know, went through that also, like, how do I keep my plans alive in my apartment when there’s no sun? (0:11:04) Kevin: But yeah, you know the feeling. (0:11:12) Kevin: Man, gosh, you’re super right. (0:11:16) Kevin: Boy, there’s a person showing an apartment with a lot of bunnies in their apartment, that seems difficult. (0:11:23) Kevin: You’re gonna have that many bunnies in an apartment. (0:11:26) Kevin: The art style is, it’s 2D pixelated, but it’s not Stardew-esque. (0:11:31) Kevin: It’s a little more cutesy than that, and I don’t know how to best describe it. (0:11:35) Kevin: And all the NPCs are kind of bobbing their head at the same time to some unknown beat, it is cute looking. (0:11:43) Kevin: And it’s only the early access, so I’m sure it’ll grow considerably more. (0:11:51) Kevin: That is, you know. (0:11:52) Kevin: October 23rd? 24th? I’m seeing two different days. (0:11:58) Kelly: I definitely want to follow up on it because just looking at the coming soon photo, it’s like why is there an iguana on the sidewalk? (0:12:06) Kevin: Hahaha! (0:12:06) Kelly: Can I have an iguana? (0:12:07) Kevin: Wait, you havin’ a guana? (0:12:08) Kelly: And then there’s also the bear man. (0:12:10) Kevin: Wait, wait, wait, wait, let me see, which one are you talkin’ about? (0:12:10) Kelly: I’m on the steam page, the early access release. (0:12:14) Kevin: What? (0:12:15) Kevin: Okay, okay, let me see… (0:12:17) Kelly: So in the coming soon photo that says steam early access, October 24th, whatever, wishlist now. (0:12:27) Kevin: Okay, okay. Oh, I’m looking at the wrong page. I would explain it wouldn’t it? Yup. There it is. Okay Yeah, I was looking the wrong page. There is a bear man. Why is there a bear man? (0:12:28) Kelly: There’s a bear man in the iguana, like do I get a pet iguana, do I get pet pigeons? (0:12:37) Kevin: Okay, I Okay, I want to mine a department full of pet iguanas that that I can do they’re pretty low-key There are pigeons. So, you know, definitely, you know, they’re hitting Oh, are they gonna have the the trash bags out on the sidewalk? (0:12:55) Kevin: Are they gonna go all in on the city? (0:12:57) Kevin: I don’t know if garland is a city name. It’s a city in texas. I know that much. (0:13:11) Kelly: Yeah. (laughs) (0:13:28) Kevin: But yeah, coming soon, early access. (0:13:31) Kevin: Next up, the clip side of early access, we got DLC patches, whatever you want to call it, for Sunhaven. (0:13:39) Kevin: This is the magical-esque farm where you do magic, there’s monsters, dragons, etc. (0:13:51) Kevin: It is patch 1.3, which includes new buildings. (0:13:58) Kevin: There are several that don’t look human, one is an angel, just straight up an angel. (0:14:04) Kevin: One guy is blue, he’s a moon attendant, whatever that means. (0:14:11) Kevin: You have to, they will be unlockable at some point, but that’s fascinating, dating non-humans like that. (0:14:20) Kevin: Oh, they will have a couple of other romancibles coming later this year. (0:14:28) Kevin: They will also have new farm structures and buildings. (0:14:32) Kevin: Greenhouses, silos, chicken coops, butterfly gardens, I like that. You don’t see that in farming games. (0:14:38) Kelly: That’s very unique, yeah. (0:14:40) Kevin: That’s cute, I love a butterfly garden. (0:14:44) Kevin: Monocyphoners, glorite siphoners, I don’t know what they are, workshops, and ticket counterfeiters. (0:14:54) Kevin: I don’t know what that means, but you’re counterfeiting. (0:14:57) Kevin: They’re up to crimes. I like that. (0:14:59) Kevin: I want to know why you can do crimes. (0:15:01) Kevin: Tickets for what? (0:15:03) Kevin: I don’t think they’re concert tickets. (0:15:05) Kevin: That’s fascinating. (0:15:07) Kevin: But yeah, there’s a whole bunch of other stuff. (0:15:10) Kelly: A lot of stuff. There’s like a ghost shed kit? I want a ghost shed. (0:15:11) Kevin: What does that mean? (0:15:18) Kevin: Do you keep ghosts in there? (0:15:19) Kelly: You grow them in there, maybe? (0:15:21) Kevin: I don’t… (0:15:23) Kevin: Oh wait, there are variations. (0:15:25) Kevin: variations because there’s pumpkin and mushroom. (0:15:27) Kevin: It looks like a ghost, oh I see it. (0:15:29) Kevin: Yeah, it has the eyes, the windows look like eyes and the glow, okay. (0:15:29) Kelly: Oh! (0:15:31) Kelly: That makes so much more sense because I was like oh mushroom shed. That’s just a shed where you grow mushrooms, you know That’s and then I just took the rest of them like that [laughs] (0:15:33) Kevin: Um, sh*t skins, yeah it does. (0:15:36) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, okay. (0:15:44) Kevin: Um, oh that’s the butterfly, wow those are big butterflies. (0:15:47) Kevin: Um, oh those are fascinating buildings. (0:15:49) Kevin: Um, let’s see, player birthdays. (0:15:53) Kevin: There is the birthday, birthday celebration. (0:15:57) Kevin: There is a huge pinata that you can hit, so I’m already down for this. (0:16:01) Kevin: Um, geez that’s like a full sized lion looking pinata, that’s great. (0:16:06) Kevin: Um, that’s uh, so all that’s included in the patch. (0:16:10) Kevin: Aside from that there will be DLC available. (0:16:13) Kevin: Um, all six different packs, trick or treat, spirit battle, rock and roll, cyber pop, monkey monkey, and dreamy ram. (0:16:22) Kevin: They’re all, they contain different items, packs, outfits, items, whatever. (0:16:27) Kevin: You guys can check the Steam page for details. (0:16:30) Kevin: Uh, for, yeah, there’s more details out there than we talked about, but, uh, yeah, that seems like a hefty patch. That seems like fun. (0:16:38) Kelly: Yeah, there’s a lot in this. This page goes on. (0:16:38) Kevin: Um, uh, yeah, it does. Um… (0:16:41) Kelly: And there’s even a coming soon, so… (0:16:43) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, they’re talking about future. (0:16:47) Kevin: Um, wow, new season of weather. Wow. (0:16:50) Kevin: Gloomy, what’s the difference between rainy and gloomy rain? I don’t know. (0:16:55) Kelly: Um, I think there’s I could I could understand that one (0:16:55) Kevin: But there you go All right, yeah, I guess. Okay, uh See like out here in Georgia. It’s a little more like rain. Not gloomy rain. Gloomy rains like hurricane force rain That’s what I think Wait no, yeah, okay. I get it (0:17:10) Kelly: No, I think gloomy rain is like when it’s kind of cold and like the sky is just dark and grey all day and it’s like just kind of constant. Like you could have nice rain, like you could have sunny rain, you could have like… (0:17:24) Kevin: Yeah, I do enjoy sun showers. (0:17:25) Kelly: It doesn’t have to be gloomy. (0:17:26) Kelly: Just like a normal rain shower isn’t always gloomy. (0:17:27) Kevin: You’re right. (0:17:28) Kevin: Yeah, no, you’re right, okay, um Yeah, so there’s all the whole bunch of stuff you guys can check that out Is that sorry? Yeah, when’s the release? I didn’t it’s it’s Oct they posted it October 20th It is oh, yeah, it’s already out on Steam. Yeah, so Now time this recording which means by the times you guys are listening. It is definitely available. That is again Sun haven (0:17:58) Kevin: Huh? Oh man, I’m just looking at the picture like a big tree man monster. I might have to check this out I like tree monsters. I I haven’t played a magic game in a minute. Well, I mean, well, maybe our keeper gentle notwithstanding Um, but it’s high, you know fantasy magic II I’m down for that. I could use that Yeah, uh, okay speaking of well, I don’t know more updates (0:18:04) Kelly: right? like i’m kind of like- i’m intrigued. i’m definitely very (0:18:17) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:18:18) Kelly: I feel like this is pretty different, yeah. (0:18:28) Kevin: We have so this is The what I refer to as not a city builder but a village builder because it’s medieval villagey themed But you’re helping build the whole village and run everything it is currently in early access and they are dropping a update for it I’m excited for this game myself. I’m gonna wait for the 1.0, but I love the art style. It’s cutesy and goofy (0:18:59) Kevin: and they are dropping all sorts of things in this update including a An encounter with a misunderstood Cyclops who’s very cute. His eye is just a dot His name is Eric one eye you can there will be a witch’s hut a red hooded girl Who’s looking for her grandma’s house? That that’s a speech. I don’t trust that at all. Oh, no, I don’t like that Hemisary gnomes (0:19:26) Kevin: It was seriously rare! (0:19:28) Kevin: And then a fawn with a really big nose and mustache. Oh, I like this guy. (0:19:33) Kevin: There’s a… and a few more. (0:19:36) Kevin: Well, those are fun characters that they’re adding. I love the art style and it looks really fun on these mythical, magical, whatever you want to call them. (0:19:46) Kevin: Cyclops and fawns. Gnomes. They’re fun looking characters. (0:19:48) Kelly: No, yeah, they look they look so cute. It looks very adorable (0:19:49) Kevin: Yeah. (0:19:51) Kevin: Yep. (0:19:53) Kevin: There are, oh gosh, 50 new world events and 30 new objectives. (0:19:58) Kevin: I don’t know what that means, but those are big numbers. (0:20:00) Kevin: Oh, there’s a magic bean. (0:20:03) Kevin: There’s monthly and yearly objectives. (0:20:06) Kevin: Hot weight. Positive and negative events. Oh, oh, they’re, they’re, they’re wild. Okay, I’m down for that. (0:20:15) Kevin: They have, let’s see, new buildings, a laborer guild. Oh, so you can hire better laborers. That’s fun. A bank. (0:20:24) Kevin: Oh, you can tax your villagers at different rates? (0:20:28) Kevin: Oh, that’s awesome. Grand theater? Oh, that’s a nice looking theater. (0:20:34) Kevin: Fisherman’s hut? Fish up stuff? All sorts of quality of life stuff? (0:20:40) Kevin: Well, there’s a lot of graphs in this game and things like that. I’m down for that. (0:20:45) Kevin: Yeah, that’s a lot of stuff coming. Like I said, I’m probably going to wait for 1.0 myself, but I’m glad that it’s coming along nicely. Yeah, that is again fabled. (0:20:57) Kelly: Is there any, is there any real estate or? (0:20:59) Kevin: Go. Oh, it is live. That update is already live as of this recording. (0:21:05) Kevin: So, yay. If anyone is playing the one point or the early access, first of all, (0:21:10) Kevin: somebody tell me if they are because I want to know about it. And it is out already. (0:21:15) Kevin: Um, yeah. All right. Good. Oh man. I’m just trying to fable them. It’s so goofy looking and the. (0:21:23) Kelly: Is there like an overall release date or no? (0:21:33) Kevin: uh not that i’m saying now um I have left here a quick glance um yeah so probably still a hot minute probably sometime in 2024 i’d hope but uh it’s not dead yet so i’ll take that let’s see next up we have uh moonstone island we have dlc for that this is which one’s this one okay all right we so we have dlc come (0:22:11) Kevin: Well, let me get to the details. Yeah, it’s the Halloween update right? That’s the key thing here. Um, (0:22:16) Kelly: I think so, ‘cause it’s for Halloween. (0:22:17) Kevin: We’ve got just a whole bunch of Spooky decors per their website gravestones skeletons a big old pumpkin house um Web’s five types of cobwebs. Oh Oh a rug. That’s just the tongue. That’s clever. I like that. Um, (0:22:38) Kevin: uh So yeah, there. (0:22:41) Kevin: Okay. (0:22:43) Kevin: Okay. (0:22:45) Kelly: I’m sorry, it’s actually not out yet. (0:22:45) Kevin: Okay. (0:22:47) Kelly: It’s not out, which I’m kinda… (0:22:47) Kevin: Um, there are n- some- the- so some of this stuff is DLC, which I’m assuming means purchasable separately, but there will be stuff included for free in the updates on the skeletons and things like that. (0:22:58) Kevin: Um, spirits are free- I don’t know what spirits are in the context of this game, but um, but they’re coming some out. (0:23:05) Kevin: Um, oh wow, I didn’t check- it’s got some good reviews. (0:23:09) Kevin: Um, I’ll have to check that out. (0:23:11) Kevin: Oh wow, what? Oh gosh, I forgot about- I’m remembering the game. (0:23:15) Kevin: There’s- you can fight like robots with a card battling system. (0:23:19) Kevin: They are… (0:23:21) Kevin: Yeah, oh man, oh gosh. (0:23:23) Kelly: These are really cute looking things, these creatures. (0:23:26) Kelly: I, yeah, like, I really like the style of it, yeah. (0:23:26) Kevin: This whole episode’s just me getting excited about games I forgot to get excited about. (0:23:31) Kevin: Um, as if I didn’t have enough already. (0:23:33) Kevin: There are really cute characters- there’s a fishbowl with legs. (0:23:36) Kevin: Um, I like that. (0:23:39) Kevin: that. And then at the end they just. (0:23:41) Kevin: Have a picture of a cat with like a sun hood. I don’t know but um, it’s very cute cat. (0:23:47) Kevin: That is Moonstone Island. That is already out, I believe. Why do we have a date for that? (0:23:52) Kelly: It is a very cute cat. (0:23:54) Kelly: The game is out, it says “NA” for them. (0:23:56) Kevin: Okay, thank you. But it says, while says it’s October 27th. I (0:24:06) Kevin: Couldn’t find that myself. Oh wait. Yeah, there it is. Yeah, October 27th. It’s only $4. (0:24:11) Kevin: Okay, that’s actually not bad at all and 10% off the first week. So there’s 46. (0:24:18) Kevin: Yeah, okay. Oh, it’s a new spirits must be a little monster buddies. That’s what it means. I’m excited. One looks like an apple with a worm through it. They’re just showing silhouettes. I’m just guessing. (0:24:23) Kelly: There you go. (0:24:29) Kevin: And yeah, I don’t know all that. Oh, I might check this out now. It’s a very cute game. (0:24:34) Kevin: Moonstone Island. Um Let’s see Next up we have oh, this isn’t an interesting (0:24:41) Kevin: one because boy, I never thought we’d see this this is Lonesome Village game that I notoriously advocate because the developers are from Mexico. It’s got the cute coyote as you saw puzzles in a tower. They’re coming out the fiscal edition. Pre-orders are live. You can check the show notes for the link. It is not from limited run games actually. A game a site called premium edition games. (0:25:11) Kevin: physical edition which includes all sorts of goodies including oh wow a full-color manual oh that’s exciting Wow a dog tag yeah they do um oh man a manual that’s exciting um yeah it’s great um yeah I I cover this game with Johnny, it was last year or year before, I don’t remember. (0:25:22) Kelly: Dude, the indie games always put so much into like what you get from… (0:25:32) Kelly: I love a manual. (0:25:33) Kelly: A full color manual too, that’s so nice. (0:25:41) Kevin: It’s a fun little game with lots of puzzles, and just very very cute little animal-closing-esque villagers. (0:25:47) Kelly: It looks really cute. The art style kind of reminds me of like Cult of the Lamb, but without the like paper feel. (0:25:47) Kevin: It’s actually funny because in the “story” of the game, so it’s called Lonesome Village because there’s a village and everyone’s kind of been turned to stone or disappeared. (0:26:03) Kevin: And the villains, they’re the people who did it very much look like Cult of the Lamb. (0:26:06) Kelly: Okay. (0:26:07) Kelly: Oh! Oh! It’s a cult! It’s a cult! What is happening here? (0:26:09) Kevin: Yeah. (0:26:12) Kevin: It came out around the time Cult of the Loom. (0:26:14) Kelly: I’m watching the trailer! Oh my god! (0:26:15) Kevin: It looks a lot like Cult of the Loom. (0:26:18) Kevin: The cult from Cult of the Loom. (0:26:20) Kevin: I think we made the joke in the episode. (0:26:22) Kevin: It came out around the same time too. (0:26:25) Kevin: Yep, yep, exactly. Yep. (0:26:26) Kelly: That’s so funny, ‘cause I was thinking it kinda like reminds me of the way they do the animals, like the style of the animals. (0:26:32) Kelly: But now that I’m watching this trailer, it’s like literally… (0:26:32) Kevin: It’s cult, it’s a lot like Cult of the Loom, Cult. (0:26:36) Kelly: That’s so funny. Oh, I gotta play this. (0:26:41) Kevin: Yeah, I have to check it out again. I still have it. (0:26:45) Kevin: It’s been a while. I’m sure they patched it up and done some stuff. (0:26:48) Kevin: ‘Cause I had a few rough edges back then, but I’m curious. (0:26:51) Kevin: I might do another look at it at some point. (0:26:54) Kevin: Because, yeah, props to–but, again, Mexican dev team, so I gotta shout them out. (0:26:59) Kevin: Ogre Pixel, that’s the name. (0:27:02) Kevin: But, yeah, that is a cute little logo of an Ogre–Pixillator Ogre. (0:27:07) Kevin: And again, this is the physical edition release. (0:27:11) Kevin: $40 for the premium edition, which seems to be their only version but includes all sorts of goodies. Um, I When do pre-orders end? I don’t know if I see that but the pre-orders are available now So you can check out the site and get it. Um Alright next up we have Not Garden Galaxy is perfect. We’re heading on the notes. That’s a different game that I was going to cover almost (0:27:42) Kevin: Garden story. That’s the one with the playable grape. That looks a lot like Stardew Valley a lot like It has It’s very cute though the grape that’s playable It is an update that has 11 new languages. Wow, that is a lot of languages I don’t know which ones they are. I just see the It’s out on Steam and switch already this update (0:28:09) Kevin: Very cool. Yeah, I actually don’t know what language is. I don’t know. (0:28:11) Kevin: Let’s see the details. But wow, that’s a big number. Good for them. (0:28:16) Kevin: Always props for making it more available for more people and whatnot. (0:28:19) Kevin: Yep. It is. The grape is very cute. (0:28:20) Kelly: Yeah, that’s always awesome. It really does look like stardew though. It’s cute though (0:28:25) Kevin: Next up, a new game announcement for as far as I can tell. (0:28:31) Kevin: This is called Fantastic Haven, which actually I find really intriguing. (0:28:36) Kevin: It’s the prime… (0:28:40) Kevin: Let me read the– (0:28:41) Kevin: The elevator pitch. (0:28:43) Kevin: So, this is a… (0:28:57) Kevin: Yeah, a Zook cheaper-esque type game, but they’re all magical creatures. (0:29:03) Kevin: Um, so you’re building big pens that look like circular homes more? (0:29:09) Kevin: Um, you alter the land and… (0:29:11) Kevin: It’s full 3D graphics, um, the… I think the actual designs of the creatures are actually quite nice, um… (0:29:18) Kevin: I like animals and critters and… (0:29:21) Kevin: …cheaping them and whatnot, so I’m already pretty interested, um, especially with the spin of… (0:29:26) Kevin: …like, they’re all magical creatures, I don’t see any other animals in here, I see like a griffin, uh… (0:29:31) Kelly: No, I’ve only seen, like, yeah, griffins and some weird frog with, like, horns and stuff. (0:29:31) Kevin: Yup, it’s a bullfrog, you get it? (0:29:36) Kelly: Ah, yes, yes, yes. (0:29:41) Kevin: The color shows a lot more, uh, it looks like you’re even busting some out of, like, cages and, like, carny… (0:29:46) Kevin: …you know, those carnival cages with the wheels, the cars, um… (0:29:51) Kevin: So that’s… that looks very fun, yeah, like I said, a lot of menus, probably, um… (0:29:57) Kevin: …very zookeeper tycoon-esque, um, but with the heavy, uh, magical fantasy paint over it, um… (0:30:06) Kevin: So that is right now the only release date planned is for Q2 of 2024 so it’ll probably be a minute but look forward to it I certainly am those are some fun designs yeah it’s it’s it’s charming enough for me I’m definitely interested um and then lastly okay this one I want to talk about in depth a little more because this one’s affecting me personally uh well actually there’s two me and my neck was night market once again got another patch that one. (0:30:41) Kevin: one point two point one oh whatever the it’s out on switch so you know it’s out on the steam version or whatever um so uh there’s a lot of quality of life stuff you can do with it. (0:30:48) Kevin: I’m not gonna go into the details because I don’t remember them but the other one I want to talk about because we just talked about last week is paleo pines. (0:30:53) Kevin: We just got yup okay so uh one point two point one oh whatever the it’s out on switch so you know it’s out on the steam version or whatever um so uh there’s a lot of quality of life stuff you can do with it. (0:30:54) Kelly: Which I still have to play, but I have not yet. (0:31:11) Kevin: We can change how quickly time passes in the game um oh gosh so one of the after I recorded last week with Spencer and we talked and played I was getting a lot of crashes. (0:31:23) Kevin: They had released a patch previously to fix some of that they said it was like a memory issue um but they were still experiencing it. (0:31:26) Kelly: Mmm. Okay. (0:31:31) Kevin: I felt like the more farther I got in the game the more I was crashed getting crashes uh they addressed some of that. (0:31:37) Kevin: that the game is still not free of crashes because (0:31:41) Kevin: we’ve been probably within an hour after downloading the update the game crashed on me again But it is better in general So they’re definitely aware and working on it at probably top of their list There is Also, there’s a whole list and you can check the show notes for them. I’m trying to look at which ones that are Stand out to me. Oh, there’s a cooking pot (0:31:46) Kelly: Oh, God. (0:32:07) Kevin: But it was weird because it was at some other guy’s house you have to go all the way to this other (0:32:12) Kevin: cook stuff but now you can buy one for your own ranch so that’s great oh here’s a fun one um so you can ride your dinosaurs because of course you can but the thing was whenever you got off of them they would just run away from you at max speed it was whole it was wild you could like try to stop them but um clearly not intended they have addressed that and and this definitely was an update needed and and it works um they will no longer run away from you when you get off of them (0:32:42) Kevin: um yes well luckily I think it was only in the ranch like your home base when it happened they wouldn’t leave you when you’re out in the wild oh my god that would be the worst yes but it’s still a pain because your character is a lot slower than the dinosaur so yeah yeah it’s just a pain having to go across the ranch to find them I mean it’s a pretty big ranch too um (0:32:44) Kelly: feeling it’s like okay nice I can I can get to the place I’m going to but once you’re there you’re stuck there now (0:32:56) Kelly: Oh, okay, okay, I was picturing like you, yeah, like you in the middle of like some field or something. (0:33:12) Kevin: uh there’s all sorts oh horse lock so there was a uh resource called forestwood that was needed for a lot of things it was pretty rare they increased the respawn on that that’s great um they did some ui improvements which were nice uh um lots of other things some oh there was a storage glitch spencer talked about think they fixed that um yeah just sort lots of little things (0:33:42) Kevin: because there were lots of little things that needed fixing um like I said still not 100 percent yeah yeah there is um where is it do they not have it um so there there is I read there is one glitch that they haven’t addressed yet um they know it’s an issue but for some reason at some point and it’s happened to me your game will reset to the first day of the game because there’s you know calendar like most farm. (0:34:12) Kevin: games and whatnot like you’ll keep all your stuff but somehow the calendar will just have reset to the very first game or very first day of the year which is wild um luckily I was able to get around that if you encounter it you can just reload an old save and it’s fine but um that was the wild glitch to see um but yeah that was I’m glad that came out because that addressed a lot of the little nitpicks Spencer and I had with the game and I’m sure (0:34:42) Kevin: they’re still working hard on that so good for you paleopines that update again is out already for switch and probably the other versions whatever versions it’s on all right so that was uh yeah the hearty helping of news and things but that’s now we’re doing that let’s talk about grave graveyard keeper yeah what’s what’s the tagline the most inaccurate medieval simulator isn’t that (0:35:09) Kelly: Something like that. I know inaccurate is involved of [laugh] (0:35:14) Kevin: Hold on let me look at it. Um the most inaccurate cemetery simulation game. Okay. Yeah, I think that’s what it is Okay Well Yeah, so again, um It and this game’s been up for years at this point. Um, I’ll covered it years ago Yeah. Yeah, there you go. That’s cute (0:35:24) Kelly: Oh, the most inaccurate medieval, yeah, cemetery sim of the year. (0:35:36) Kelly: Uh, they had their five year anniversary actually in August. (0:35:42) Kevin: There’s a bunch of DLC I bought the (0:35:44) Kevin: version with all the DLC I don’t know what the base game hazard does not have. (0:35:48) Kevin: I’ve only played it for an afternoon or two. I don’t think I’ve reached any of the DLC portions yet probably. (0:35:49) Kelly: Oh, did you? Okay. (0:35:57) Kevin: They’re all parody names there’s a stranger sins there’s breaking something (0:35:57) Kelly: Um, I’m trying to remember. I know the DLC… (0:35:59) Kelly: Yes, because there’s better save soul. (0:36:04) Kelly: Um, I did look into getting them, but I didn’t- I didn’t, because I think it was like- (0:36:11) Kelly: I feel like there’s- there’s so much going on in this game already. (0:36:14) Kevin: Even if it is, there’s a lot going on. (0:36:14) Kelly: Uh, that I was very happy to not have the added, um, things that like go along with the better save soul one. I heard that gets a lot of pretty tedious. (0:36:24) Kevin: Yeah, heh heh heh. (0:36:25) Kevin: Better save solo, that’s good. (0:36:29) Kevin: I don’t think that one’s out on Switch. (0:36:31) Kevin: That’s it? I don’t know if that one’s out on Switch. (0:36:32) Kelly: Oh, are you playing on Switch? I am not gonna lie. I have not. (0:36:36) Kelly: I’ve been so bad at playing my Switch this year. (0:36:44) Kevin: But, I mean, that’s fine, like, I know that the Switch port gets black for a good reason. (0:36:55) Kevin: There’s a Switch tax for sure, so I don’t blame you. (0:36:57) Kevin: But hey, at least we can compare notes on that. (0:37:00) Kevin: If you played on Steam, I would guess? (0:37:10) Kevin: Um, but okay, so let’s okay, let’s the elevator pitch Okay, first of all, I didn’t expect that this game’s an isekai That I didn’t expect at all so for people unfamiliar with isekai that is a genre of anime primarily where a character wakes up in a simulated often fantasy type world (0:37:38) Kevin: Sword Art Online and just… (0:37:40) Kevin: …other ones. It’s a whole trope now. (0:37:42) Kevin: Umm… (0:37:43) Kelly: I was gonna say it breaks the, you know, inherited your grandpa’s farm trope though. (0:37:44) Kevin: … (0:37:46) Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. (0:37:48) Kevin: You’re just a guy who gets hit by a car cause he’s looking at his phone. (0:37:52) Kevin: Don’t look at your phone when crossing the streets. (0:37:54) Kevin: It’s dark in the rain, people. (0:37:56) Kevin: It’s not recommended. (0:37:58) Kevin: And he wakes… (0:37:59) Kelly: Poor dude’s just trying to give back to his girlfriend or whatever. (0:38:00) Kevin: …yeah, his love, as he says, and… (0:38:03) Kevin: …he wakes up in a graveyard area and… (0:38:08) Kevin: There’s a talking skull that talks to you. (0:38:10) Kevin: And he says, “Hey, welcome. You’re the graveyard keeper, I guess.” (0:38:13) Kevin: Um, more or less, and sure enough, you’re put in charge of this graveyard in this little medieval village area. (0:38:23) Kevin: And you’re trying to figure out how to get back home while managing the graveyard and all the stuff people are asking you. (0:38:32) Kevin: Because, of course, people are going to ask you to do everything around here. (0:38:35) Kevin: Uh… (0:38:36) Kelly: I mean, what would a game be without everybody asking you to do all these things? (0:38:40) Kevin: Right, right. (0:38:42) Kevin: Um, so, okay, hell, you beat the game, correct? What are your overall impressions? (0:38:50) Kelly: I really liked the game. I thought it was a lot of fun. I think there’s a lot of stuff to do, (0:38:57) Kelly: like it can get a bit overwhelming, but I think, you know, it definitely involves, you know, (0:38:59) Kevin: Boy does it. (0:39:01) Kevin: Oh. Yep. (0:39:04) Kelly: looking things up online. But I will say there is an issue with how intuitive it is. (0:39:08) Kevin: Yep. (0:39:10) Kevin: Yep. (0:39:12) Kelly: I think I could have been further along in my gameplay if I understood some of the (0:39:20) Kelly: panics. A lot better. And I will say on that note, it was not always easy to find the answers on the internet. So that made it even worse. And sometimes if you did find an answer, (0:39:21) Kevin: Yep. Okay, so yeah, so. Mm-hmm. (0:39:31) Kevin: Oh yeah, the double whammy, oh yeah. (0:39:35) Kevin: Yup, it’s wild. (0:39:38) Kelly: it was from like 2018, so something got patched or didn’t work like that anymore. (0:39:46) Kelly: So, that was my biggest issue. (0:39:48) Kelly: Did it stop me from putting in, you know, (0:39:50) Kelly: 90 hours, I think, or whatever into the game? (0:39:55) Kelly: No, but there were definitely moments where I was frustrated. (0:39:59) Kelly: Or, like, again, just like, I was playing the game, I was enjoying myself, (0:40:03) Kelly: but I could have been further along than what I was. (0:40:07) Kevin: Yeah, um, okay. Mm-hmm Okay, yeah for sure they’re just Yeah, absolutely. Um, so for comparison I got the game Thursday I think today’s like Saturday. So two days ago So I’ve only played for and Mario wonder so I didn’t play as much yesterday So I played the game for an afternoon and then some um, I like the game a lot. Um, (0:40:07) Kelly: And not even in, like, a micromanagy, like, you know, whatever kind of way. (0:40:13) Kelly: Like, in, like, a… (0:40:15) Kelly: It would have made more sense. (0:40:26) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:40:37) Kevin: I think it is Almost minecrafty and how open it is and crafting and everything But I fully agree like that’s my biggest criticism there’s a lot that is not intuitive Or explained well Yep, yep, yep, I’m sure (0:40:50) Kelly: you haven’t even gotten or opened a lot of the, you know, different aspects of the game yet at this point, I’m sure, because it really expands. It expands a lot. There is a lot to do. There is so (0:41:03) Kevin: But I can imagine… I mean I see the skill tree. (0:41:07) Kevin: So… I can… I can… she’s… I can… (0:41:12) Kevin: So there’s a skill tree in this game, right? You have to get points to unlock your skills. (0:41:18) Kevin: And you can see how far it goes. And yes, I can see there’s a lot to unlock and do and whatnot. (0:41:24) Kevin: But… I think the skill tree is probably where I can direct my first criticism. (0:41:32) Kevin: Because there’s three types of points, whatever you want to call them. (0:41:37) Kevin: Red, green, and blue, and you need different amounts of each for unlocking each new skill, which lets you craft new things or do new things, whatnot. (0:41:46) Kevin: Um, the red and green work hard to get, but the blue, the blue is killing me because I hit a point where I had like one blue point overall and couldn’t figure out how to get more. (0:41:56) Kelly: You run out of them. (0:41:58) Kevin: Yeah. (0:41:59) Kelly: There’s a certain point where the game just stops you from getting more for a bit. (0:42:02) Kevin: Really? Wow. (0:42:04) Kelly: Not like stops you. (0:42:06) Kelly: There’s definitely a roadblock, I would say. (0:42:11) Kevin: - Yeah, okay. (0:42:14) Kelly: I struggled with that for so long. (0:42:17) Kelly: And then, of course, at a certain point, it’s like, oh. (0:42:20) Kelly: Now, actually, you’re out of red. (0:42:23) Kelly: Or now you’re out of green or whatever. (0:42:25) Kelly: And it’s like, oh, something that I– (0:42:26) Kelly: so I think one of them is done from manual labor, red, I think. (0:42:27) Kevin: yep yep your manufacturing and things yeah red okay oh you don’t get read from them (0:42:34) Kelly: Yeah, so at a certain point, you get helper zombies that you can assign to do things. (0:42:42) Kelly: So you’re no longer getting the red from those things that you would be getting red from. (0:42:47) Kelly: So it definitely makes you have to stop and think and watch everything. (0:42:56) Kevin: Yup, absolutely, um, it’s a very resource-manage-y heavy game and that includes your skill points or whatever you want to call them. (0:43:07) Kevin: That’s fascinating. (0:43:09) Kevin: Like I can see the blue are going to be very scarce. (0:43:11) Kelly: But I think it’s interesting because it does… (0:43:13) Kelly: Sorry, I was gonna say it just it does impact, I feel like, (0:43:18) Kelly: what you’re trying to do in that day. Because if you’re trying to get blue points… (0:43:19) Kevin: Right. Yeah, exactly. (0:43:22) Kevin: The nice thing, one of the nicest things about the game, (0:43:26) Kevin: there’s no real pressure. (0:43:28) Kevin: There’s no seasons or years or whatever. (0:43:31) Kevin: There’s a week. (0:43:32) Kevin: So like in six, seven, I don’t remember how long, how many days, (0:43:36) Kevin: but that’s the worst that you have to wait. (0:43:37) Kelly: It’s seven days Which and I liked I like I really like the fact that there was no pressure on the seasons or When you finished the game even or anything like that. I also liked the Each day is a different person You have to make sure that you’re getting the things you need to have done before that day so you can go and deal with that person (0:43:38) Kevin: Yep. Which go by quickly. (0:43:42) Kevin: Yep. (0:43:57) Kevin: Yep. (0:43:57) Kevin: Yep. (0:44:03) Kevin: Yep, he just gotta wait until… (0:44:03) Kelly: Because there’s definitely some weeks where if you miss that person you’re screwed (0:44:07) Kelly: Yup. And there is something later on in the game, you know, when things have slowed down in certain areas and you’re just like waiting for that one day where you can fast forward. (0:44:10) Kevin: Until that point. (0:44:21) Kelly: Yes, but I do actually want to say on that point, I think this is very interesting because there is no pause button. There’s no space yet. (0:44:21) Kevin: Yeah, sure that makes sense. Yeah, you can fast-forward at any point you should go to sleep and (0:44:32) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, even if you’re in your menus, time goes on. (0:44:37) Kelly: Yeah, you have to literally like go to the exit screen or whatever. Like the main menu page. (0:44:41) Kevin: Yeah Yep Yep, so if you’re looking through your notes here You know hemming and hawing at a menu thinking about where you want to spend your points that happened to me just just today When I was playing I cuz I finally got some blue points today. And so I was just like agonizing over I wanted where I wanted to spend them and before when I got out of the menu Oh, it’s evening already. Cool. The whole day’s [laughter] (0:44:43) Kelly: There’s a certain page that stops time, but the rest of them don’t. (0:44:48) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:45:09) Kelly: Yep. (0:45:11) Kelly: Yep. (0:45:12) Kevin: But they’re the kind of I mean, I don’t know if it was their intent or not But the way to combat that it’s very easy to reroll your did your save like you own there’s no autosave It just saves when you go when you wake up So most of the time you can say you’re pretty much have a safe at the start of the date or start of the day, excuse me, and You can just reload to that and have a plan or save yourself (0:45:23) Kelly: Oh, yes. (0:45:25) Kelly: Yes. (0:45:29) Kelly: I would just quit the game. (0:45:32) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:45:40) Kelly: Oh yeah, no, there was many times where I would either just, you would see like the NPC walking away from their post, and I would have to go and reset the game and then do the day over and make sure I got there early enough. (0:45:47) Kevin: Oh my gosh. (0:45:50) Kevin: Yep. (0:45:52) Kevin: Oh my gosh. (0:45:54) Kevin: That happened to me twice already when I go down and Snake is running away and like, “No, I need to talk to you, Snake.” (0:46:02) Kelly: oh god he’s so annoying he’s so annoying for the skill points though I think it’s like kind of fun like there’s some weird ones you can choose from uh-huh (0:46:05) Kevin: He is. (0:46:08) Kevin: He is. (0:46:11) Kevin: Yeah. (0:46:13) Kevin: Overall, I’m a big fan of the Skilled Trees, umm… (0:46:17) Kevin: Because you can very much pick and choose if you want to focus on certain areas and whatnot. (0:46:23) Kevin: Umm, obviously like… (0:46:25) Kevin: To get green points, that’s the farming stuff, so you do want to invest in some of that stuff. (0:46:30) Kevin: Umm, but like, early on you can really get through a lot of the wood and metalworking stuff. (0:46:37) Kevin: Umm, and again, with almost no pressure on when to do it, umm, it’s… (0:46:42) Kevin: It’s very open and you’re very free to pick and choose as you want. (0:46:46) Kevin: You know, (0:46:47) Kevin: the limitations of how many skill points you actually have notwithstanding. (0:46:52) Kevin: I think it is a clever system. (0:46:54) Kevin: And because you get to see what’s coming ahead, that helps you plan that too. (0:47:00) Kevin: I really like that. (0:47:01) Kelly: Yes, definitely. (0:47:01) Kevin: Um… (0:47:02) Kelly: There was definitely some areas in the skill tree though where I did not understand what, (0:47:09) Kelly: like if you unlocked something, (0:47:12) Kelly: I didn’t understand how to access it afterwards, (0:47:15) Kelly: which then led to me diving down a rabbit hole, (0:47:18) Kelly: trying to figure it out. (0:47:18) Kevin: Yeah, sometimes that’s a little unclear most of the time When you look at the skill tree thing it says okay, you can craft at this bench or that bench or whatever But some are not very clear. Yeah Some aren’t super clear. Yeah But I do agree (0:47:27) Kelly: Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, it definitely is pretty good. (0:47:30) Kelly: It’s pretty good. (0:47:34) Kelly: Can we talk about the main premise of the game, which I think is the most weird and fun part is, you know, collecting your corpses? (0:47:41) Kevin: Yeah, the it’s definitely yeah the differentiator the the the graveyard itself. Yeah, let’s talk about that (0:47:43) Kelly: Because you are, you are quite literally the graveyard keeper. So you get a (0:47:54) Kelly: Annoyed little donkey that delivers corpses to you. (0:47:56) Kevin: I’m red donkey from a leftist stable [laughter] (0:47:57) Kelly: And oh my god, there was so many times where I would hear that bell and just be so far away from home. (0:48:06) Kelly: And just go running because it’s like the second you hear that bell that corpse starts, you know, deteriorating. (0:48:12) Kevin: Yep Yeah, that’s that’s an interesting aspect that the forps is deteriorate and it affects a lot of things And yeah, they’re kind of deliver just at random times. It feels like I didn’t detect any pattern Umm… (0:48:22) Kelly: Yeah. (0:48:23) Kelly: Yes. (0:48:27) Kelly: No, they can definitely be whenever. (0:48:31) Kelly: And they can pile up too. (0:48:34) Kevin: Oh my gosh, I don’t think I’ve had that happen yet, but I could see that happening. (0:48:35) Kelly: Yeah, no, they can definitely pile up. (0:48:43) Kelly: I mean, this game goes in depth. (0:48:48) Kelly: I have freezers for bodies. (0:48:53) Kelly: So, you know, it’s like you are literally treating it like a morgue, like… (0:48:57) Kelly: But I think one of the most fun parts is removing the organs, (0:49:03) Kelly: but also the most hard to understand initially. (0:49:06) Kevin: Right, so yeah, let’s talk about that because as very early on you’re introduced that you have options to do the corpse One you can bury them in your graveyard. It has a prettiness rating you how you decorate it Well, you bury them and whatnot You can even just throw it in the river or cremate them or You can take them into your morgan Do a little bisection, you know see what you can poke around and find in there pull out a skull some blood What? (0:49:36) Kevin: A bit of flesh. (0:49:38) Kevin: It’s fascinating that they gave you this option. (0:49:43) Kevin: There’s… (0:49:44) Kevin: I haven’t gotten too in-depth with the body parts. (0:49:47) Kelly: So, I’ll explain it. It’s a lot. (0:49:51) Kelly: Basically, your corpse, so when you bury a corpse, you want it to be as high rated as possible because it impacts your cemeteries overall like beauty rating, (0:50:05) Kelly: which is a whole different aspect. (0:50:07) Kelly: And that’s a big part of the game because it kind of roadblocks you if you don’t keep up with it. (0:50:11) Kelly: But so you want to make sure you’re removing. (0:50:14) Kelly: If you remove certain organs, it makes your corpses… (0:50:17) Kelly: …that’s how you can remove them. (0:50:19) Kelly: If you remove other organs, it decreases it, and they don’t really tell you at first. (0:50:23) Kelly: You have to unlock skills on the skill tree… (0:50:25) Kelly: …that tell you. (0:50:25) Kevin: Yeah, I mean they tell you like there’s bad organs, but you don’t you can’t tell which ones until you go get that later (0:50:29) Kelly: Yes. Yes. (0:50:34) Kelly: And so you can remove organs, and you can also try to put the organ back. (0:50:38) K

Kelly Shortridge, Senior Principal Engineer at Fastly, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss their recently released book, Security Chaos Engineering: Sustaining Resilience in Software and Systems. Kelly explains why a resilient strategy is far preferable to a bubble-wrapped approach to cybersecurity, and how developer teams can use evidence to mitigate security threats. Corey and Kelly discuss how the risks of working with complex systems is perfectly illustrated by Jurassic Park, and Kelly also highlights why it's critical to address both system vulnerabilities and human vulnerabilities in your development environment rather than pointing fingers when something goes wrong.About KellyKelly Shortridge is a senior principal engineer at Fastly in the office of the CTO and lead author of "Security Chaos Engineering: Sustaining Resilience in Software and Systems" (O'Reilly Media). Shortridge is best known for their work on resilience in complex software systems, the application of behavioral economics to cybersecurity, and bringing security out of the dark ages. Shortridge has been a successful enterprise product leader as well as a startup founder (with an exit to CrowdStrike) and investment banker. Shortridge frequently advises Fortune 500s, investors, startups, and federal agencies and has spoken at major technology conferences internationally, including Black Hat USA, O'Reilly Velocity Conference, and SREcon. Shortridge's research has been featured in ACM, IEEE, and USENIX, spanning behavioral science in cybersecurity, deception strategies, and the ROI of software resilience. They also serve on the editorial board of ACM Queue.Links Referenced: Fastly: https://www.fastly.com/ Personal website: https://kellyshortridge.com Book website: https://securitychaoseng.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellyshortridge/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/swagitda_ Bluesky: https://shortridge.bsky.social TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Have you listened to the new season of Traceroute yet? Traceroute is a tech podcast that peels back the layers of the stack to tell the real, human stories about how the inner workings of our digital world affect our lives in ways you may have never thought of before. Listen and follow Traceroute on your favorite platform, or learn more about Traceroute at origins.dev. My thanks to them for sponsoring this ridiculous podcast. Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud, I'm Corey Quinn. My guest today is Kelly Shortridge, who is a Senior Principal Engineer over at Fastly, as well as the lead author of the recently released Security Chaos Engineering: Sustaining Resilience in Software and Systems. Kelly, welcome to the show.Kelly: Thank you so much for having me.Corey: So, I want to start with the honest truth that in that title, I think I know what some of the words mean, but when you put them together in that particular order, I want to make sure we're talking about the same thing. Can you explain that like I'm five, as far as what your book is about?Kelly: Yes. I'll actually start with an analogy I make in the book, which is, imagine you were trying to rollerblade to some destination. Now, one thing you could do is wrap yourself in a bunch of bubble wrap and become the bubble person, and you can waddle down the street trying to make it to your destination on the rollerblades, but if there's a gust of wind or a dog barks or something, you're going to flop over, you're not going to recover. However, if you instead do what everybody does, which is you know, kneepads and other things that keep you flexible and nimble, the gust you know, there's a gust of wind, you can kind of be agile, navigate around it; if a dog barks, you just roller-skate around it; you can reach your destination. The former, the bubble person, that's a lot of our cybersecurity today. It's just keeping us very rigid, right? And then the alternative is resilience, which is the ability to recover from failure and adapt to evolving conditions.Corey: I feel like I am about to torture your analogy to death because back when I was in school in 2000, there was an annual tradition at the school I was attending before failing out, where a bunch of us would paint ourselves green every year and then bike around the campus naked. It was the green bike ride. So, one year I did this on rollerblades. So, if you wind up looking—there's the bubble wrap, there's the safety gear, and then there's wearing absolutely nothing, which feels—Kelly: [laugh]. Yes.Corey: —kind of like the startup approach to InfoSec. It's like, “It'll be fine. What's the worst that happens?” And you're super nimble, super flexible, until suddenly, oops, now I really wish I'd done things differently.Kelly: Well, there's a reason why I don't say rollerblade naked, which other than it being rather visceral, what you described is what I've called YOLOSec before, which is not what you want to do. Because the problem when you think about it from a resilience perspective, again, is you want to be able to recover from failure and adapt. Sure, you can oftentimes move quickly, but you're probably going to erode software quality over time, so to a certain point, there's going to be some big incident, and suddenly, you aren't fast anymore, you're actually pretty slow. So, there's this, kind of, happy medium where you have enough, I would like security by design—we can talk about that a bit if you want—where you have enough of the security by design baked in and you can think of it as guardrails that you're able to withstand and recover from any failure. But yeah, going naked, that's a recipe for not being able to rollerblade, like, ever again, potentially [laugh].Corey: I think, on some level, that the correct dialing in of security posture is going to come down to context, in almost every case. I'm building something in my spare time in the off hours does not need the same security posture—mostly—as we are a bank. It feels like there's a very wide gulf between those two extremes. Unfortunately, I find that there's a certain tone-deafness coming from a lot of the security industry around oh, everyone must have security as their number one thing, ever. I mean, with my clients who I fixed their AWS bills, I have to care about security contractually, but the secrets that I hold are boring: how much money certain companies pay another very large company.Yes, I'll get sued into oblivion if that leaks, but nobody dies. Nobody is having their money stolen as a result. It's slightly embarrassing in the tech press for a cycle and then it's over and done with. That's not the same thing as a brief stint I did running tech ops at Grindr ten years ago where, leak that database and people will die. There's a strong difference between those threat models, and on some level, being able to act accordingly has been one of the more eye-opening approaches to increasing velocity in my experience. Does that align with the thesis of your book, since my copy has not yet arrived for this recording?Kelly: Yes. The book, I am not afraid to say it depends on the book, and you're right, it depends on context. I actually talk about this resilience potion recipe that you can check out if you want, these ingredients so we can sustain resilience. A key one is defining your critical functions, just what is your system's reason for existence, and that is what you want to make sure it can recover and still operate under adverse conditions, like you said.Another example I give all the time is most SaaS apps have some sort of reporting functionality. Guess what? That's not mission-critical. You don't need the utmost security on that, for the most part. But if it's processing transactions, yeah, probably you want to invest more security there. So yes, I couldn't agree more that it's context-dependent and oh, my God, does the security industry ignore that so much of the time, and it's been my gripe for, I feel like as long as I've been in the industry.Corey: I mean, there was a great talk that Netflix gave years ago where they mentioned in passing, that all developers have root in production. And that's awesome and the person next to him was super excited and I looked at their badge, and holy hell, they worked at an actual bank. That seems like a bad plan. But talking to the Netflix speaker after the fact, Dave Hahn, something that I found that was extraordinarily insightful, was that, yeah, well we just isolate off the PCI environment so the rest and sensitive data lives in its own compartmentalized area. So, at that point, yeah, you're not going to be able to break much in that scenario.It's like, that would have been helpful context to put in talk. Which I'm sure he did, but my attention span had tripped out and I missed that. But that's, on some level, constraining blast radius and not having compliance and regulatory issues extending to every corner of your environment really frees you up to do things appropriately. But there are some things where you do need to care about this stuff, regardless of how small the surface area is.Kelly: Agreed. And I introduced the concept of the effort investment portfolio in the book, which is basically, that is where does it matter to invest effort and where can you kind of like, maybe save some resources up. I think one thing you touched on, though, is, we're really talking about isolation and I actually think people don't think about isolation in as detailed or maybe as expansively as they could. Because we want both temporal and logical and spatial isolation. What you talked about is, yeah, there are some cases where you want to isolate data, you want to isolate certain subsystems, and that could be containers, it could also be AWS security groups.It could take a bunch of different forms, it could be something like RLBox in WebAssembly land. But I think that's something that I really try to highlight in the book is, there's actually a huge opportunity for security engineers starting from the design of a system to really think about how can we infuse different forms of isolation to sustain resilience.Corey: It's interesting that you use the word investment. When fixing AWS bills for a living, I've learned over the last almost seven years now of doing this that cost and architecture and cloud are fundamentally the same thing. And resilience is something that comes with a very real cost, particularly when you start looking at what the architectural choices are. And one of the big reasons that I only ever work on a fixed-fee basis is because if I'm charging for a percentage of savings or something, it inspires me to say really uncomfortable things like, “Backups are for cowards.” And, “When was the last time you saw an entire AWS availability zone go down for so long that it mattered? You don't need to worry about that.” And it does cut off an awful lot of cost issues, at the price of making the environment more fragile.That's where one of the context thing starts to come in. I mean, in many cases, if AWS is having a bad day in a given region, well does your business need that workload to be functional? For my newsletter, I have a publication system that's single-homed out of the Oregon region. If that whole thing goes down for multiple days, I'm writing that week's issue by hand because I'm going to have something different to talk about anyway. For me, there is no value in making that investment. But for companies, there absolutely is, but there's also seems to be a lack of awareness around, how much is a reasonable investment in that area when do you start making that investment? And most critically, when do you stop?Kelly: I think that's a good point, and luckily, what's on my side is the fact that there's a lot of just profligate spending in cybersecurity and [laugh] that's really what I'm focused on is, how can we spend those investments better? And I actually think there's an opportunity in many cases to ditch a ton of cybersecurity tools and focus more on some of the stuff he talked about. I agree, by the way that I've seen some threat models where it's like, well, AWS, all regions go down. I'm like, at that point, we have, like, a severe, bigger-than-whatever-you're-thinking-about problem, right?Corey: Right. So, does your business continuity plan account for every one of your staff suddenly quitting on the spot because there's a whole bunch of companies with very expensive consulting, like, problems that I'm going to go work for a week and then buy a house in cash. It's one of those areas where, yeah, people are not going to care about your environment more than they are about their families and other things that are going on. Plan accordingly. People tend to get so carried away with these things with tabletop planning exercises. And then of course, they forget little things like I overwrote the database by dropping the wrong thing. Turns out that was production. [laugh]. Remembering for [a me 00:10:00] there.Kelly: Precisely. And a lot of the chaos experiments that I talk about in the book are a lot of those, like, let's validate some of those basics, right? That's actually some of the best investments you can make. Like, if you do have backups, I can totally see your argument about backups are for cowards, but if you do have them, like, maybe you conduct experiments to make sure that they're available when you need them, and the same thing, even on the [unintelligible 00:10:21] side—Corey: No one cares about backups, but everyone really cares about restores, suddenly, right after—Kelly: Yeah.Corey: —they really should have cared about backups.Kelly: Exactly. So, I think it's looking at those experiments where it's like, okay, you have these basic assumptions in place that you assume to be invariance or assume that they're going to bail you out if something goes wrong. Let's just verify. That's a great place to start because I can tell you—I know you've been to the RSA hall floor—how many cybersecurity teams are actually assessing the efficacy and actually experimenting to see if those tools really help them during incidents. It's pretty few.Corey: Oh, vendors do not want to do those analyses. They don't want you to do those analyses, either, and if you do, for God's sakes, shut up about it. They're trying to sell things here, mostly firewalls.Kelly: Yeah, cybersecurity vendors aren't necessarily happy about my book and what I talk about because I have almost this ruthless focus on evidence and [unintelligible 00:11:08] cybersecurity vendors kind of thrive on a lack of evidence. So.Corey: There's so much fear, uncertainty, and doubt in that space and I do feel for them. It's a hard market to sell in without having to talk about here's the thing that you're defending against. In my case, it's easy to sell the AWS bill is high because if I don't have to explain why more or less setting money on fire as a bad thing, I don't really know what to tell you. I'm going to go look for a slightly different customer profile. That's not really how it works in security, I'm sure there are better go-to-market approaches, but they're hard to find, at least, ones that work holistically.Kelly: There are. And one of my priorities with the book was to really enumerate how many opportunities there are to take software engineering practices that people already know, let's say something like type systems even, and how those can actually help sustain resilience. Even things like integration testing or infrastructure as code, there are a lot of opportunities just to extend what we already do for systems reliability to sustain resilience against things that aren't attacks and just make sure that, you know, we cover a few of those cases as well. A lot of it should be really natural to software engineering teams. Again, security vendors don't like that because it turns out software engineering teams don't particularly like security vendors.Corey: I hadn't noticed that. I do wonder, though, for those who are unaware, chaos engineering started off as breaking things on purpose, which I feel like one person had a really good story and thought about it super quickly when they were about to get fired. Like, “No, no, it's called Chaos Engineering.” Good for them. It's now a well-regarded discipline. But I've always heard of it in the context of reliability of, “Oh, you think your site is going to work if the database falls over? Let's push it over and see what happens.” How does that manifest in a security context?Kelly: So, I will clarify, I think that's a slight misconception. It's really about fixing things in production, and that's the end goal. I think we should not break things just to break them, right? But I'll give a simple example, which I know it's based on what Aaron Rinehart conducted at UnitedHealth Group, which is, okay, let's inject a misconfigured port as an experiment and see what happens, end-to-end. In their case, the firewall only detected the misconfigured port 60% of the time, so 60% of the time, it works every time.But it was actually the cloud, the very common, like, Cloud configuration management tool that caught the change and alerted responders. So, it's that kind of thing where we're still trying to verify those assumptions that we have about our systems and how they behave, again, end-to-end. In a lot of cases, again, with security tools, they are not behaving as we expect. But I still argue security is just a subset of software quality, so if we're experimenting to verify, again, our assumptions and observe system behavior, we're benefiting software quality, and security is just a subset of that. Think about C code, right? It's not like there's, like, a healthy memory corruption, so it's bad for both the quality and security reason.Corey: One problem that I've had in the security space for a while is—let's [unintelligible 00:14:05] on this to AWS for a second because that is the area in which I spend the most of my time, which probably explains a lot about my personality challenges. But the problem that I keep smacking into is if I go ahead and configure everything the way that I should according to best practices and the rest, I wind up with a firehose torrent of information in terms of CloudTrail logs, et cetera. And it's expensive in its own right. But then to sort through it or to do a lot of things in security, there are basically two options. I can either buy a vendor's product, which generally tends to start around $12,000 a year and goes up rapidly from there on my current $6,000 a year bill, so okay, twice as much as the infrastructure for security monitoring. Okay.Or alternately, find a bunch of different random scripts and tools on GitHub of wildly diverging quality and sort of hope for the best on that. It feels like there's nothing in between. And the reason I care about this is not because I'm cheap but because when you have an individual learner who is either a student or a career switcher or someone just trying to experiment with this, you want them to begin as you want them to go on, and things that are no money for an enterprise are all the money to them. They're going to learn to work with the tools that they can afford. That feels like it's a big security swing and a miss. Do you agree or disagree? What's the nuance I'm missing here?Kelly: No, I don't think there's nuance you're missing. I think security observability, for one, isn't a buzzword that particularly exists. I've been trying to make it a thing, but I'm solely one individual screaming into the void. But observability just hasn't been a thing. We haven't really focused on, okay, so what, like, we get data and what do we do with it?And I think, again, from a software engineering perspective, I think there's a lot we can do. One, we can just avoid duplicating efforts. We can treat observability, again, of any sort of issue as similar, whether that's an attack or a performance issue. I think this is another place where security, or any sort of chaos experiment, shines though because if you have an idea of here's an adverse scenario we care about, you can actually see how does it manifest in the logs and you can start to figure out, like, what signals do we actually need to be looking for, what signals mattered to be able to narrow it down. Which again, it involves time and effort, but also, I can attest when you're buying the security vendor tool and, in theory, absolving some of that time and effort, it's maybe, maybe not, because it can be hard to understand what the outcomes are or what the outputs are from the tool and it can also be very difficult to tune it and to be able to explain some of the outputs. It's kind of like trading upfront effort versus long-term overall overhead if that makes sense.Corey: It does. On that note, the title of your book includes the magic key phrase ‘sustaining resilience.' I have found that security effort and investment tends to resemble a fire drill in—Kelly: [laugh].Corey: —an awful lot of places, where, “We care very much about security,” says the company, right after they very clearly failed to care about security, and I know this because I'm reading getting an email about a breach that they've just sent me. And then there's a whole bunch of running around and hair-on-fire moments. But then there's a new shiny that always comes up, a new strategic priority, and it falls to the wayside again. What do you see the drives that sustained effort and focus on resilience in a security context?Kelly: I think it's really making sure you have a learning culture, which sounds very [unintelligible 00:17:30], but things again, like, experiments can help just because when you do simulate those adverse scenarios and you see how your system behaves, it's almost like running an incident and you can use that as very fresh, kind of, like collective memory. And I even strongly recommend starting off with prior incidents in simulating those, just to see like, hey, did the improvements we make actually help? If they didn't, that can be kind of another fire under the butt, so to speak, to continue investing. So, definitely in practice—and there's some case studies in the book—it can be really helpful just to kind of like sustain that memory and sustain that learning and keep things feeling a bit fresh. It's almost like prodding the nervous system a little, just so it doesn't go back to that complacent and convenient feeling.Corey: It's one of the hard problems because—I'm sure I'm going to get castigated for this by some of the listeners—but computers are easy, particularly compared to the people. There are deterministic ways to solve almost any computer problem, but people are always going to be a little bit different, and getting them to perform the same way today that they did yesterday is an exercise in frustration. Changing the culture, changing the approach and the attitude that people take toward a lot of these things feels, from my perspective, like, something of an impossible job. Cultural transformations are things that everyone talks about, but it's rare to see them succeed.Kelly: Yes, and that's actually something that I very strongly weaved throughout the book is that if your security solutions rely on human behavior, they're going to fail. We want to either reduce hazards or eliminate hazards by design as much as possible. So, my view is very much again, like, can you make processes more repeatable? That's going to help security. I definitely do not think that if anyone takes away from my book that they need to have, like, a thousand hours of training to change hearts and minds, then they have completely misunderstood most of the book.The idea is very much like, what are practices that we want for other outcomes anyway—again, reliability or faster time to market—and how can we harness those to also be improving resilience or security at the same time? It's very much trying to think about those opportunities rather than, you know, trying to drill into people's heads, like, “Thou shalt not,” or, “Thou shall.”Corey: Way back in 2018, you gave a keynote at some conference or another and you built the entire thing on the story of Jurassic Park, specifically Ian Malcolm as one of your favorite fictional heroes, and you tied it into security in a bunch of different ways. You hadn't written this book then unless the authorship process is way longer than I think it is. So, I'm curious to get your take on what Jurassic Park can teach us about software security.Kelly: Yes, so I talk about Jurassic Park as a reference throughout the book, frequently. I've loved that book since I was a very young child. Jurassic Park is a great example of a complex system gone wrong because you can't point to any one thing. Like there's Dennis Nedry, you know, messing up the power system, but then there's also the software was looking for a very specific count of dinosaurs and they didn't anticipate there could be more in the count. Like, there are so many different factors that influenced it, you can't actually blame just, like, human error or point fingers at one thing.That's a beautiful example of how things go wrong in our software systems because like you said, there's this human element and then there's also how the humans interact and how the software components interact. But with Jurassic Park, too, I think the great thing is dinosaurs are going to do dinosaur things like eating people, and there are also equivalents in software, like C code. C code is going to do C code things, right? It's not a memory safe language, so we shouldn't be surprised when something goes wrong. We need to prepare accordingly.Corey: “How could this happen? Again?” Yeah.Kelly: Right. At a certain point, it's like, there's probably no way to sufficiently introduce isolation for dinosaurs unless you put them in a bunker where no one can see them, and it's the same thing sometimes with things like C code. There's just no amount of effort you can invest, and you're just kind of investing for a really unclear and generally not fortuitous outcome. So, I like it as kind of this analogy to think about, okay, where do our effort investments make sense and where is it sometimes like, we really just do need to refactor because we're dealing with dinosaurs here.Corey: When I was a kid, that was one of my favorite books, too. The problem is, I didn't realize I was getting a glimpse of my future at a number of crappy startups that I worked at. Because you have John Hammond, who was the owner of the park talking constantly about how, “We spared no expense,” but then you look at what actually happened and he spared every frickin expense. You have one IT person who is so criminally underpaid that smuggling dinosaur embryos off the island becomes a viable strategy for this. He wound up, “Oh, we couldn't find the right DNA, so we're just going to, like, splice some other random stuff in there. It'll be fine.”Then you have the massive overconfidence because it sounds very much like he had this almost Muskian desire to fire anyone who disagreed with him, and yeah, there was a certain lack of investment that could have been made, despite loud protestations to the contrary. I'd say that he is the root cause, he is the proximate reason for the entire failure of the park. But I'm willing to entertain disagreement on that point.Kelly: I think there are other individuals, like Dr. Wu, if you recall, like, deciding to do the frog DNA and not thinking that maybe something could go wrong. I think there was a lot of overconfidence, which you're right, we do see a lot in software. So, I think that's actually another very important lesson is that incentives matter and incentives are very hard to change, kind of like what you talked about earlier. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't include incentives in our threat model.So like, in the book I talked about, our threat models should include things like maybe yeah, people are underpaid or there is a ton of pressure to deliver things quickly or, you know, do things as cheaply as possible. That should be just as much of our threat models as all of the technical stuff too.Corey: I think that there's a lot that was in that movie that was flat-out wrong. For example, one of the kids—I forget her name; it's been a long time—was logging in and said, “Oh, this is Unix. I know Unix.” And having learned Unix as my first basically professional operating system, “No, you don't. No one knows Unix. They get very confused at some point, the question is, just how far down what rabbit hole it is.”I feel so sorry for that kid. I hope she wound up seeking therapy when she was older to realize that, no, you don't actually know Unix. It's not that you're bad at computers, it's that Unix is user-hostile, actively so. Like, the raptors, like, that's the better metaphor when everything winds up shaking out.Kelly: Yeah. I don't disagree with that. The movie definitely takes many liberties. I think what's interesting, though, is that Michael Creighton, specifically, when he talks about writing the book—I don't know how many people know this—dinosaurs were just a mechanism. He knew people would want to read it in airport.What he cared about was communicating really the danger of complex systems and how if you don't respect them and respect that interactivity and that it can baffle and surprise us, like, things will go wrong. So, I actually find it kind of beautiful in a way that the dinosaurs were almost like an afterthought. What he really cared about was exactly what we deal with all the time in software, is when things go wrong with complexity.Corey: Like one of his other books, Airframe, talked about an air disaster. There's a bunch of contributing factors in the rest, and for some reason, that did not receive the wild acclaim that Jurassic Park did to become a cultural phenomenon that we're still talking about, what, 30 years later.Kelly: Right. Dinosaurs are very compelling.Corey: They really are. I have to ask though—this is the joy of having a kid who is almost six—what is your favorite dinosaur? Not a question most people get asked very often, but I am going to trot that one out.Kelly: No. Oh, that is such a good question. Maybe a Deinonychus.Corey: Oh, because they get so angry they spit and kill people? That's amazing.Kelly: Yeah. And I like that, kind of like, nimble, smarter one, and also the fact that most of the smaller ones allegedly had feathers, which I just love this idea of, like, feather-ful murder machines. I have the classic, like, nerd kid syndrome, though, where I read all these dinosaur names as a kid and I've never pronounced them out loud. So, I'm sure there are others—Corey: Yep.Kelly: —that I would just word salad. But honestly, it's hard to go wrong with choosing a favorite dinosaur.Corey: Oh, yeah. I'm sure some paleontologist is sitting out there in the field on the dig somewhere listening to this podcast, just getting very angry at our pronunciation and things. But for God's sake, I call the database Postgres-squeal. Get in line. There's a lot of that out there where looking at a complex system failures and different contributing factors and the rest makes stuff—that's what makes things interesting.I think that there's this the idea of a root cause is almost always incorrect. It's not, “Okay, who tripped over the buried landmine,” is not the interesting question. It's, “Who buried the thing?” What were all the things that wound up contributing to this? And you can't even frame it that way in the blaming context, just because you start doing that and people clam up, and good luck figuring out what really happened.Kelly: Exactly. That's so much of what the cybersecurity industry is focused on is how do we assign blame? And it's, you know, the marketing person clicked on a link. And it's like, they do that thousands of times, like a month, and the one time, suddenly, they were stupid for doing it? That doesn't sound right.So, I'm a big fan of, yes, vanquishing root cause, thinking about contributing factors, and in particular, in any sort of incident review, you have to think about, was there a designer process problem? You can't just think about the human behavior; you have to think about where are the opportunities for us to design things better, to make this secure way more of the default way.Corey: When you talk about resilience and reliability and big, notable outages, most forward-thinking companies are going to go and do a variety of incident reviews and disclosures around everything that happened to it, depending upon levels of trust and whether your NDA'ed or not, and how much gets public is going to vary from place to place. But from a security perspective, that feels like the sort of thing that companies will clam up about and never say a word.Kelly: Yes.Corey: Because I can wind up pouring a couple of drinks into people and get the real story of outages, or the AWS bill, but security stuff, they start to wonder if I'm a state actor, on some level. When you were building all of this, how did you wind up getting people to talk candidly and forthrightly about issues that if it became tied to them that they were talking to this in public would almost certainly have negative career impact for them?Kelly: Yes, so that's almost like a trade secret, I feel like. A lot of it is yes, over the years talking with people over, generally at a conference where you know, things are tipsy. I never want to betray confidentiality, to be clear, but certainly pattern-matching across people's stories.Corey: Yeah, we're both in positions where if even the hint of they can't be trusted enters the ecosystem, I think both of our careers explode and never recover. Like it's—Kelly: Exactly.Corey: —yeah. Oh, yeah. They play fast and loose with secrets is never the reputation you want as a professional.Kelly: No. No, definitely not. So, it's much more pattern matching and trying to generalize. But again, a lot of what can go wrong is not that different when you think about a developer being really tired and making a bunch of mistakes versus an attacker. A lot of times they're very much the same, so luckily there's commonality there.I do wish the security industry was more forthright and less clandestine because frankly, all of the public postmortems that are out there about performance issues are just such, such a boon for everyone else to improve what they're doing. So, that's a change I wish would happen.Corey: So, I have to ask, given that you talk about security, chaos engineering, and resilience-and of course, software and systems—all in the title of the O'Reilly book, who is the target audience for this? Is it folks who have the word security featured three times in their job title? Is it folks who are new to the space? What is your target audience start and stop?Kelly: Yes, so I have kept it pretty broad and it's anyone who works with software, but I'll talk about the software engineering audience because that is, honestly, probably out of anyone who I would love to read the book the most because I firmly believe that there's so much that software engineering teams can do to sustain resilience and security and they don't have to be security experts. So, I've tried to demystify security, make it much less arcane, even down to, like, how attackers, you know, they have their own development lifecycle. I try to demystify that, too. So, it's very much for any team, especially, like, platform engineering teams, SREs, to think about, hey, what are some of the things maybe I'm already doing that I can extend to cover, you know, the security cases as well? So, I would love for every software engineer to check it out to see, like, hey, what are the opportunities for me to just do things slightly differently and have these great security outcomes?Corey: I really want to thank you for taking the time to talk with me about how you view these things. If people want to learn more, where's the best place for them to find you?Kelly: Yes, I have all of the social media which is increasingly fragmented, [laugh] I feel like, but I also have my personal site, kellyshortridge.com. The official book site is securitychaoseng.com as well. But otherwise, find me on LinkedIn, Twitter, [Mastodon 00:30:22], Bluesky. I'm probably blanking on the others. There's probably already a new one while we've spoken.Corey: Blue-ski is how I insist on pronouncing it as well, while we're talking about—Kelly: Blue-ski?Corey: Funhouse pronunciation on things.Kelly: I like it.Corey: Excellent. And we will, of course, put links to all of those things in the [show notes 00:30:37]. Thank you so much for being so generous with your time. I really appreciate it.Kelly: Thank you for having me and being a fellow dinosaur nerd.Corey: [laugh]. Kelly Shortridge, Senior Principal Engineer at Fastly. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an insulting comment about how our choice of dinosaurs is incorrect, then put the computer away and struggle to figure out how to open a door.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

Mike Isaacson: The earth isn't flat. Everything is going downhill. [Theme song] Nazi SS UFOsLizards wearing human clothesHinduism's secret codesThese are nazi lies Race and IQ are in genesWarfare keeps the nation cleanWhiteness is an AIDS vaccineThese are nazi lies Hollow earth, white genocideMuslim's rampant femicideShooting suspects named Sam HydeHiter lived and no Jews died Army, navy, and the copsSecret service, special opsThey protect us, not sweatshopsThese are nazi lies Mike: Welcome to another episode of The Nazi Lies Podcast. Today I am joined by Kelly Weill, reporter at The Daily Beast on the fringe ideology beat and author of the book Off the Edge: Flat Earthers, Conspiracy Culture, and Why People Will Believe Anything. Ms. Weill, thanks so much for coming on the show. Kelly Weill: Hey, thank you so much for having me. Mike: So now when I finished the book, I DM'd you to tell you that you're absolutely brilliant. And the reason why is your intentional approach when it comes to being a conduit of misinformation. You're very careful in how you reference your source material so as not to lead readers to it. Can you talk a little bit about your methodology a bit and how you dealt with your sources? Kelly: Yeah, absolutely. It's weird dealing with somebody like flat earth, which is objectively wrong, right? When you're talking about that subject, you already kind of risk platforming that conspiracy theory as if there's any validity to it. So one thing that I tried to do throughout the course of my reporting and then to replicate as I was writing this book, was not to really engage with flat Earth as though it were a legitimate theory. And I kind of had it easy there. If I were doing something like medical misinformation, I would have probably had to get in the weeds a little bit more. But as far as flat earth goes, I would go to these conferences and when I was interviewing people, I'd be really straightforward. I'd be like, "Hey yo, I'm not I'm not a flat earther. I'm a reporter; I believe in the globe. But let's talk about why you believe this thing." And for me, that was a bit more interesting than the details of what exactly they believed because flat earth is wrong, but I wanted to come to why they bought into a theory that's so wrong. And when we had those conversations about their pathways to belief, that turned out to be a lot more interesting to me than just the zaniness of this theory. Mike: Okay, and we'll get into that soon. I want to talk about some things I learned. So the first thing I learned from your book is that flat earth theory is actually not that old? Like, there were cultures that believed in a flat earth, but there wasn't the sort of pseudoscientific theory to justify it. So, when does the story of the flat earth movement start? Kelly: Yeah, totally. This is a bit of a misconception actually. I know when I was a kid I thought that there was, you know, Columbus thought he might have been sailing off the edge of the world. That's not true at all. We've known for thousands of years that earth was round because you can prove it with some pretty basic math. It's something that we've been able to do long before we could physically observe the shape of the Earth. But where flat earth theory actually comes back in is in England in around 1840. And that's when we have a guy named Samuel Rowbotham. He's a really interesting guy. He was a failed leader of a socialist commune; he had his hands on all kinds of short-lived fringe movements. I had a great time going through, you know, pre-Marxist socialist newspapers to find out what he was up to. But one of his career trajectories that didn't fail had to do with misinformation. He sold fake miracle cures, sort of a proto-Alex Jones. And he started shelling this idea that maybe earth was flat. And that idea was really alluring to certain people in that moment because, around mid-1800s, we're talking about a time when the natural sciences are taking on more and more of a role in the discourse and the importance of things like religion are taking more of a backseat. So when a theory like flat Earth comes out, it allows people to discard huge swathes of science and say, "Oh, I knew it was wrong all along. Oh, the scientists are all in league with each other to keep us in the dark." So as baffling and unscientific as flat earth was, even back then, it really did allow people to affirm their priors, to cast out information they didn't want to believe in, and sort of reshape their beliefs around this new and creative and just wholly counterfactual idea. Mike: It just blew me away that Rowbotham had no predecessors whatsoever, he just kind of built this out of whole cloth, just him in the Bible. So how did flat Earth stick around? Kelly: It stuck around because he had cronies just like any conspiracy influencer we have today. You know, I've just a couple of minutes ago compared Rowbotham to Alex Jones. He had his entourage, the people who might be like Owen Shroyers of the movement, who were even louder and a bit more virulent in their dissemination of these theories. These were the people who– He had a follower named John Hampden who just reminds me so much of one of these guys who goes on YouTube and is like, "Debate me. Debate me." And he would lure actual scientific professionals into these stupid, pointless debates over established science about the shape of the world. But because he was just so tenacious and he wouldn't admit that he had lost a bet about a scientific wager and he would go to jail because he was harassing people about the shape of the world, you know, that emotional appeal, it continued to resonate with people throughout the years. And even though flat earth has ebbed and flowed a little bit in popularity, just the wildness of it, I think ,has always had an appeal for certain people who are looking for it. Mike: So, one thing I was surprised about was that the flat earth movement was rather a latecomer, as far as conspiracy theories go, to the internet. So, what brought the flat earth online? How was it received? Kelly: Yeah, that was really interesting to me, too. Because while I was researching this, I was kind of trawling through OG conspiracy pages online. What's interesting to me actually if I might take a step back here is that conspiracy theories have always been early adopters of a lot of technology. You know, Rowbotham had a friend who was running a printing press, and he was getting his flat earth zines out. There was a flat earth commune in the early 20th century, and they had one of the earliest powerful radio programs that they could broadcast along the way. So when I was looking at early internet conspiracy theories, I did find that conspiracy theorists were some of the first voices online who were really putting out weird information. So I was deep in the trenches looking at Y2K influencers and all that. But there actually, to your point, was sort of a lack of flat earth theory early on in the internet. And I can think of a few reasons for that. For a while, flat earth theory was very tied to the Flat Earth Society, which was shepherded until 2001 by this very elderly couple. They were super literally off the grid. They lived in the desert, and they just were not the type of people to get online. And a lot of their archives actually burned in a house fire. So flat Earth really kind of took a nosedive with their deaths. It came back online when some archivalist started going through those older records of this Flat Earth Society couple. And these people relaunched the Flat Earth Society online as a forum, a discussion place where people could talk. It's interesting to me. I am not completely sold on the idea that the people who relaunched the Flat Earth Society online were genuine. I think there's a reasonable chance that they're kind of fucking around like they thought it was funny. But they did resurface this huge archive of decades and decades of flat earth writings and they put them online. And that became, I think, the basis for a lot of more genuine believers to start going through the back catalog and seeing what flat earthers had been saying for the past 150 years. And eventually, it went from this sort of more moderate discussion on forums to things that could go a lot more viral with the advent of sites like YouTube. Mike: Okay so let's talk about the algorithm. How did flat earth wind up profiting from the YouTube recommendation algorithm? Kelly: Yeah, this was huge. And throughout this book, I wanted to be careful about ascribing flat earth's resurgence to any one thing, you know, any one website or any one algorithm. That said, YouTube has a lot of blood on its hands as far as flat earth goes. Basically, for quite a long time YouTube's algorithm would promote videos that it thought people would want to watch. It actually still does this, but they've done tweaks that hamper flat earth, I'll get to that in a minute. But basically, what people really want to watch, what people really want to click on at two in the morning, is not necessarily factual information. It's not really the “Eat Your Vegetables” kind of video. It's the weird scintillating stuff. If you see a video in your sidebar, a recommended video on YouTube and it says, "Is earth really flat?" Yeah, you're gonna click on that because it's just so weird you have to find out what that video is about. Because those videos performed so well, because they tapped into this curiosity and this weird factor, they started overperforming in the algorithm, and they appear to have been promoted overwhelmingly. So conspiracy YouTubers would realize that, "Hey, I can get a lot of views by having a title that references flat earth.” So from a confluence of people making flat earth videos because they're being cynical, because they knew it would get a lot of views, and people who are actually starting to get earnestly converted from these videos going and putting their genuine beliefs in these new channels, we started seeing this huge swell of flat earth videos and a pretty powerful recommendation algorithm that gave those videos a disproportionate share of traffic. I do want to note that YouTube kind of acknowledged this and changed its algorithm in 2019 specifically so that flat earth would not be such an issue. Mike: One thing you didn't draw a comparison to, or maybe I missed it, and I'm about to regurgitate one of your points, was to multilevel marketing. Like, these YouTubers are not just looking for converts to watch their videos, so that they can get monetized ads or whatever; they want converts to make videos themselves and then reference their videos so that they can get traffic that way. Can you talk a little about the culture of the flat earth movement on YouTube? Kelly: Absolutely. I think the multi-level marketing comparison is such an apt one, and I'm actually kind of mad that I don't make it in the book, because it's relevant. And you bring that up. But literally the first Flat Earth conference I went to, this one flat earth celebrity YouTuber came up to me and she started talking to me. She goes, "Oh, I didn't realize you are a reporter. I was gonna say you should maybe make some videos about flat earth." Because she thought I was there and I was being genuine and... I'm gonna say something really mean. A lot of flat Earthers are kind of like boomer men that you don't want to watch a video of. And I was a 24-year-old woman so I think that was what was going on. [laughs] But to that end, yeah, flat earthers don't just want to preach; they want to convert. And they want to build this community around themselves and around their videos because that's what keeps the theory going. Flat earth in and of itself could just be a set of talking points that you accept, and then you move on with your life. But for a lot of flat earthers, it becomes a way of life. It becomes a community that they build, and frankly, a set of relationships that they cling to because they often have deteriorating relationships with the rest of the world when they convert to this theory. So there's a very strong community basis in flat earth and other conspiracy theories. And I definitely think that flat earth YouTubers are often trying to make more flat earth YouTubers, and they're trying to promote a community that will further promote their videos. Mike: Okay. So another thing I liked about the book was the way you brought human dignity to a lot of the people you talked about (not so much the cult leaders and grifters, but just kind of average people). Can you talk a bit about the people you met during your reporting and some of their backgrounds? Kelly: Absolutely. I mean, there's no one profile for a flat earther. I know I just said a lot of them are kind of boomer guys. And maybe the average flat earther is a little bit older. But there's a surprising diversity in how people come to flat earth. When I was talking to people, I was trying to get a sense of, you know, “what were their priors?” Initially at the first flat earth conference, I went and started asking people about their political beliefs. And I found that although this movement does skew conservative, a lot of people were very disenchanted with politics and they didn't really affix themselves to a tidy political profile. So what I started doing was looking into that disaffectation. Why were people dissatisfied? Why were people looking for such a radical alternative explanation for the world? And I found quite a lot of pathways to flat earth. A lot of them are fairly upsetting; a lot of them had to do with people who were looking for new forms of community because they felt alienated in some sense, people who were looking for religious alternatives, a lot of people who came from faith traditions where they didn't fully feel like they were getting the right answers. So when I was talking to people, I think I was in a certain sense maybe trying to diagnose what exactly had gone a little bit wrong to lead them to this movement. And I found the people who were actually quite forthcoming with me, were quite generous in explaining their path to flat earth. So that's something I tried to do regardless of, you know, if somebody told me they were a Trump supporter or an Obama fan who had completely fallen out of political circles. I just tried to try and keep an eye on that human element. Mike: Okay. You have this chapter, Alone in a Flat World, where you talk about people losing their social lives to flat earth. This seems to play into this 21st-century decentralized cult phenomenon. You talk a lot about QAnon too, which is similar. So there are flat earth organizations, but apart from getting high-rolling flat earthers to a conference once a year, they don't really hold on to the movement. That's coming from the YouTube culture. Kelly: Yeah, absolutely. I think a decentralized cult is a really interesting way of thinking about flat earth and frankly a lot of other conspiracy communities. It's hard to strictly call it a cult because there's no one leader, there's no one person they take marching orders from. And yet it has a lot of the hallmarks of a cult. There's a central idea that you have to adhere to and block out all the other noise. You have to distance yourself from people who criticize this idea. It's a very in-group out-group affirming structure. And it's interesting when I started looking at that model for flat earth, it was pretty easy to apply to a lot of other fringe movements and frankly some not-so-fringe movements. I thought it was really interesting to apply to Trumpism, and I know that sounds like a very Twitter-lib talking point saying, “Oh Trump is a cult leader.” But in the more maybe psychological aspect of it, where you do think about people's willingness to create this community around a central figure or central idea at the expense of the rest of their entire world. I think that was really interesting. And it also, for me, explains why it's so hard to pull people away from these figures or ideas. Because they're not really operating on “debate me” facts and logic; they're operating on very emotional grounds. They tie a lot of their identity to flat earth or a political ideal. And so when you're trying to help them disengage from that, I think you need to also try and have some element of emotional healing. You need to offer an alternative to what sustenance they're getting from that movement. So yeah, that was definitely a model that helped me while I was thinking about flat earth and why people believe. Mike: Yeah. It's like when I was doing my research on fascism for my Ph.D.-- that I didn't complete-- [laughs] one of the articles that I came across was talking about how the condition for someone deprogramming themselves from the Nazi movement, and from cult movements in general, is not only kind of a disillusionment with the movement that they're in but also kind of like an alternative that they can jump to, like a landing pad of a community that they can segue into without having to basically be alone in the world. Kelly: Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's funny. There were a few interesting anecdotes earlier this year, and I can't fact-check them, but I think there's the plausibility to people who were saying that they had former QAnon relatives who dropped it when they found something that met that same need. One of them was an aunt who got really into K-pop, which has this huge really loud online fandom, right? And so if the aunt was into QAnon because she wanted that community around her, well there's actually something comparable and infinitely less harmful in stanning BTS or whatever. And then the other was someone whose relative was into QAnon because she liked the puzzle element, and she got into Wordle. And she did 500 Wordle knockoffs a day. And that was just kind of taking the place for her. So I think people don't turn to these ultra-irrational things for no reason at all, they're seeking some unmet need. And if we can hopefully redirect them into something as harmless as BLACKPINK or whatever, that's definitely preferable. Mike: Yeah. Okay. One interesting thing that you did in the book, which I'm not sure that you even noticed, was you adopted some of their manners of speaking. So like in particular, more towards the end of the book, you start using "flat" to refer to flat earthers in the way that someone might use "gay" to refer to someone who's gay. You describe someone as being flat. You do point out also that they often use the phrase "coming out of the closet." So can we talk about how badly these people want to be gay? [Kelly laughs] But was there an acculturation process in talking to and understanding these people, though? Kelly: Yes. And also in terms of the coming out, what's so funny to me is these people really do want some legitimate form of victimhood because they do feel victimized and so they're just borrowing the language of the queer community, which is funny because a lot of these people are quite religious and conservative and are actually anti-gay, which I just thought was wild to see. Yes, there definitely was a process of learning how to talk to these folks. I think one of them was– I was never, like I said earlier, I was never really trying to debate people. There was one thing that I had to dodge almost every time I went to a conference or I was talking to a new person on the phone, was I said, "Hey, I've got my views, you've got yours. I don't know that we're going to come to any synthesis in the course of a 30-minute conversation." But yeah, I did try and hue pretty closely to their language. People would refer to themselves as being members of a community. When I talk about flat earth I, even now, refer to it as a community. I think because I've spent so much time around them, and hearing that term and actually kind of accepting that it is for them, a very communally based thing. One thing I had to dodge quite a lot was discussions of religion. I'm very much an atheist. This is very much a religiously-influenced movement. Although flat earth doesn't necessarily have to be religious, it's predominantly quite Christian. So just kind of learning how to approach a discussion like that, and be able to honestly represent my views without putting them off. And that's a little challenging sometimes. I'm also of Jewish heritage, and a lot of, frankly, there was a good deal of anti-semitism there. So, you know, just talking in open terms about faith I found was helpful. And yeah, you do kind of adopt the vocabulary a little bit. And I hope to put it in a way in this book that folks can read and feel like they were somewhat immersed in flat earth without completely giving them credence. Mike: Yeah, I definitely got that sense. You devote a chapter to flat earth fascists, but in all, it didn't seem that significant to me. Is this a misperception on my part? It didn't seem like there were that many flat fascists. Kelly: No. I'm very glad to say that most flat earthers are not fascists. But by that same token, I did feel like it was relevant enough that I had to put it in the book. And I think that's because it speaks to a broader issue with conspiracy theories. I think conspiracy theories are very, very useful to fascists, to totalizing movements in general, because they do allow people to cast out information that they don't want to grapple with. They allow people to have a very reduced view of the world and to perceive enemies where they don't exist, to perceive persecution where it doesn't exist, to form these in-group out-group associations. So I was fascinated by the existence of some flat earth nazis, which they are around. One of the biggest flat earth video makers also has multiple neo-nazi rap albums. So it bore mentioning. But I thought it was maybe a good way to draw connections between something like flat earth, which is so zany that I think most people can laugh at it, to something like QAnon which is an equally absurd conspiracy theory but has way more fascist momentum behind it. QAnon is just a fascist fever dream. So I thought that I had to, in some way, make an allusion to how these conspiracy theories can be weaponized for something that's less funny than flat earth. Mike: Yeah. So your last chapter is about one of my favorite things to do, and that's leaving. Talk about the people that left flat earth and what we might learn from their stories. Kelly: Absolutely. It was challenging for me to find people who left the flat earth movement who were willing to speak for this book. And that's not because a lot of people don't leave flat earth, they do, but they're kind of embarrassed about it. They don't want to go on the record, because it is an embarrassing thing to be wrong about. So I'm very, very grateful for the people who did speak to me on the record about this. And something that they told me was that there was this intense feeling of overcoming themselves almost to leave flat earth. They had sunk so many relationships into this theory. They'd alienated people; they'd been very argumentative about this theory; they'd been passionate about it. There were sunk costs, right? They didn't want all of it to have been for nothing. And so they put off leaving the theory really as long as they could, as long as they could still plausibly believe it. One guy told me that he was–at the end of his belief–he was so distressed that he couldn't look up at the sky. He didn't want to see a sunset because it would disprove flat earth. And he didn't want to look at it and grapple with that. So I think it took a tremendous amount of personal honesty and bravery for these people to say, "You know what? I was actually wrong. And these losses that I've experienced from flat earth were exactly that, they were losses." But I do think what helped the people I spoke to was having a community around them outside flat earth who helped them leave and didn't make them feel like idiots, who welcomed them back even though they'd been on a long strange trip for a couple of years. And so I think going back to that idea of community, that idea of having alternatives, being able to have a safe landing, I think, was the most helpful thing for these people. Mike: Okay. Kelly, thank you so much for coming on The Nazi Lies Podcast to talk about flat Earthers. The book again is Off the Edge out from Algonquin Books. Thanks again, Ms. Weill. Kelly: Thank you so much for having me. Mike: You missed reading Off the Edge with us in The Nazi Lies Book Club, but there are still plenty of great books from our upcoming guests to read. Come join us and support the show by subscribing to our Patreon. Subscriptions start as low as $2 and some come with merch. Check us out at patreon.com/NaziLies and follow us on Twitter @NaziLies and Facebook at facebook.com/TheNSLiesPod [Theme song]

This week we sit down with Mr. Tutti (AKA Kelly) from the Tutti Gravel Inn. Inspired by the Canadian landscape, Kelly set off on a journey to create a gravel cycling vacation inn in Clinton, BC Canada.   Episode Sponsor: Logos Components  Support the Podcast Join The Ridership  Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos: Tutti Gravel Inn [00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist. This week on the show. We welcome Kelly Servin ski. From a duty gravel in up in Clinton, Canada. The Inn opened up in 2019. Just in time for the pandemic to make it start a little more stunted than it would have liked, but I became aware of the end and began talking to Kelly about a year ago. And I was keen to explore, you know, what would it look like to create a gravel in many of you may know that over in Europe, Bike hotels are quite prevalent anywhere. There's a bike hotspot. You can find a hotel that will cater to your needs. With little touches, like having a pump or an area to clean your bike, but just the general friendliness to guess rumbling through the door. Dirty and in their Lycra. Kelly gives us an overview of what his vision was and what inspired him to start to the two D gravel in, in Clinton, Canada. Before we jump in, I need to thank this week sponsor. Logos components. Logos Components is introducing their new omnium lineup of wheels. Logos comes from the mind of Randall Jacobs and the team at Thesis bike. The regular listener knows randall well as the co-host of in the dirt on this podcast but also increasingly a number of individual episodes where randall's taking his deep technical knowledge and interviewing guests for the podcast we recently recorded episode 136 about what makes a great gravel wheel set. Where Randall broke down from the hubs to the spokes, to the rims, all the things you should be considering when purchasing a gravel wheel set. As it turns out the Logus omnium collection is the manifestation. Of all those criteria Randall has meticulously gone through and specked each component for what he believes makes the best wheel set out there. I encourage you to listen to that episode 136, to get an understanding about what these wheel sets have to offer. The team has launched the wheel set at an introductory price of $999. And has wheels available in 650, 700 C and 29er. So I encourage you to go check them out at www.logoscomponents.com. I've personally spent a lot of time on wheels designed by Randall And most recently spent time on the 700 C version of the logos wheels. And I can attest they're completely bomber and on par with the best wheels I've ever written. So go check them out at www.logoscomponents.com. If you have any questions after listening to that episode, 136. Feel free to jump into the ridership and talk to randall directly And or other riders that may have experience on the product With that said let's jump right over to my interview with kelly from d gravel In. Kelly welcome to the show. [00:03:16] Kelly: Thanks for having me. [00:03:17] Craig Dalton: Yeah. I'm excited to get into the conversation and learn a little bit more about the 2d gravel in am. I pronouncing it? [00:03:24] Kelly: Yeah. It's pronounced Tuti. So Tuti in Italian means everyone or all. So that's a nice word. It's cute, but it's also the spirit of our business. Everyone's welcome here to come gravel ride. [00:03:37] Craig Dalton: Amazing. Well, let's start off by getting a little bit about your background as a cyclist, and then we'll transition to how you discovered Clinton and, and why creating this, this gravel specific in was in your, in your vision. [00:03:51] Kelly: Yeah, I mean, pretty random for me with my sort of foray into cycling I loved motorcycles to begin with as a kid. I had a BMX bike, but primarily it was dirt bikes. Grew up in the prairies of Canada, I would say north of Montana. So the province of Saskatchewan. So. Farm country, that kind of thing. Yeah, cut to the chase. I was out dirt biking with a friend and adventurous, young guys were 15 and we saw a couple of dirt bikers professionals in a, in a magazine high fiving in the air as they jumped and then. You know, we just thought, Hey, we can do that. and yeah, it didn't go so well. So, yeah, you know, big crash totaled the bike off broke my right femur. My right, pinky finger, my wrist and my elbow in the crash. So, Yeah, my buddy got away a little less worse for wear. He broke his toe, but anyhow, just yeah, long story short bone specialist suggested getting into something other than BMX riding for rehab of the femur. So he didn't say gravel bikes or road bike or anything like that. But he said, you know, what about these mountain bikes kind of thing? So, yeah, about the the bike that I could afford at the time. So the cheapest bike I could get my hands on that was halfway decent and yeah, started rolling and getting the femur going and then Yeah entered my first race after I was feeling, feeling better and all the cast came off and whatnot and ended up winning the beginner category and then yeah, was hooked and yeah, never touched a dirt bike again until just recently got one again. But yeah, this was pretty random, but yeah, that's the way it goes in life sometimes. Right. Just like how we've ended up in Clinton. Just yeah. You never know how things are gonna. Shape up. So just the adventure continue. [00:05:34] Craig Dalton: After those early sort of racing experiences, did you continue racing? [00:05:38] Kelly: Yeah. Yeah. I I really loved it. I, I wouldn't say you know, yeah, it, it was interesting. I was a young guy trying to find my way in the world. Working night jobs you know, going to university, that kind of thing. Yeah, I really love cycling, you know, for the comradery of it, the people that you met, I met my best friends through cycling over the years and yeah, I did. Okay. Like focused on cross country and, you know, had some, you know, halfway decent results, I would say here in Canada and Yeah, I really enjoyed it. You know? I wouldn't say I trained maybe the best, you know, the most proper way, but yeah, no, I had had some, had some good times out there but I had the foresight to pack it in and, and not just keep you know, continuing with racing, thinking I'm gonna keep improving. I sort of saw the writing on the wall, which is. You know, just I thought I got as fast as I could get, so yeah, I ended up going tree planting. So, I did that for a number of years. I didn't complete university, unfortunately, as many, as many people haven't, but yeah, life took another turn and then went out tree planting. Here in Canada, but also in Scotland as well for a couple of Springs. And yeah, planting is kind of, interesting too. It's you only get in, you only get out what you put in just like cycling. So, yeah, it's pretty hard work and whatnot, but yeah, I did that for a number of summers and then hadn't touched the bike for a long, long time, but again, the bike came back into my life and another sort of random. Sort of way. Yeah, after I was done tree planting, so yeah. [00:07:07] Craig Dalton: Yeah, it's funny. You mentioned tree planting. I had an employee of mine many years ago, who was a Canadian. Who was involved in tree planting and every summer she would ask for a leave of absence to go back to it. It was a [00:07:19] Kelly: oh yeah. [00:07:20] Craig Dalton: she loved it. She just thought it was just sort of this great experience. And so it's funny to hear you mention that. [00:07:25] Kelly: Well, you don't ride, you don't ride your bike too much when you're planting. That's also another thing, you know, I would always put a deposit on a bike before I'd head out to the Bush kind of thing in the spring and wouldn't get a chance to touch it till the fall and ride it for a little bit and then it would snow. So, yeah. Did it for a number of years, about seven seasons. And then Yeah, got back into cycling with some of the mountain bike stage races that were happening trans Rockies and Lada and trans ALP and things like that. So, yeah. Then I hung up the bags in the shovel, so to speak with planting. [00:07:55] Craig Dalton: Right, right on. Amazing. Yeah, it was funny as, as we were, as I was prepping for this conference this conversation I was thinking about and researching where Clinton was and wondering if in my trans Rockies mountain bike stage or ACE experience, I got close to Clinton and it didn't look like it did. [00:08:13] Kelly: no, no. Yeah. You, you had been in well to the east of us who knows maybe you and I have crossed paths. Did it a couple of times? Yeah, 2005 and 2007 and yeah. Yeah, it was it was a great experience. So that just fired me up for, for cycling. Again, I'd always love cycling, always followed it while I was planting, but yeah, that really reignited my love for it. It's it's still going these days. Trans rock still happening. They have a gravel event as well. [00:08:40] Craig Dalton: Yeah, a hundred percent. In fact, I just will be prior to this when releasing, releasing an episode from trans Rocky's, gravel, Royal, [00:08:48] Kelly: Hmm, awesome. [00:08:49] Craig Dalton: a lot of those memories, you know, [00:08:51] Kelly: Oh, for sure. [00:08:52] Craig Dalton: experienced, they, you know, the daily recap videos, the camping experience, there's just a, a great way to spend a week. [00:09:00] Kelly: Yep. Totally. [00:09:00] Craig Dalton: So at what point did you discover gravel bikes, drop bar bikes. [00:09:05] Kelly: Yeah, that's an interesting one. I mean, obviously we run our in 2d, gravel in here and we have guests coming, you know, now from all over Canada, Western Canada, I would say, and some Americans and Europeans and everyone has their sort of timeline, I guess when they've discovered I'll do in parentheses gravel cycling, but We don't get into any sort of, I would say pissing match type thing. Just to use that, that phrase about who's been in it longer and all those sorts of things and how, how long ago we knew about it. But again, we grew up in the Prairie sort of area of Canada and there wasn't, you know, Sweet, you know, single track or anything like that out there. So you were riding farm roads and gravel roads on your mountain bike. So, yeah, that's what we had to ride and you know, it it, it was awesome. You could just go and you could go forever as you know. So, yeah that was, you know, obviously back in the day, but I would say. For me the, you know, why I've, you know, set up here in our guest suite you know, in front of the bicycle that you see behind me, that's a bike I rode in Lero. I've done it a couple of times. So, did it in 2012 and yeah, that, that event in Italy the original one had a real impact on me with gravel cycling was over there. I was a rep in the industry for a number of years. And yeah, I was over there and you know, just on some holidays and then thought, oh, you know, this, this Lero event looks cool. Let's do that. And yeah, I just couldn't believe the, the passion and, and, you know, the dust flying on the gravel roads and, you know, the drop bar bikes and everything, you know, albeit vintage bikes. And I thought, wow, this is awesome. Like, look at this, look at the, you know, really it was about the passion. Look at the passion people have for, for doing this and the landscapes and. You know, the serenity of it, just getting away from it, all getting off the paved surfaces. It's not mountain biking obviously, but it has some elements of you know, off-road riding clearly. Right. Which appealed to me. But then the speed of, of road cycling, which I, I, I went through my road phase too, I would say. But yeah, I just didn't like being around cars, you know, just really liked being off the beaten path, so to speak. So yeah, I would say it was Laro that really. Just opened my eyes to, to these bikes, you know, really coming back to where they originated, right? Like they were ridden on gravel roads before all the, you know, roads were, were, were paved, you know, in Europe and north America, obviously. So all these images we have in our guest suites of the geo Tolia, for instance, you know, The riders going over these gravel roads high in the mountains, you know, that's that really struck a chord with me. So I came back and told a friend of mine who owns a bike shop, a really successful bike shop in Squamish BC here, where we used to live for about 12 years that you know, Hey, This I didn't say gravel site playing for sure. But I just said this, this, you know, Lero thing, this, this drop bar bikes on, on gravel roads is I, you know, it's gonna be something, this is, this is awesome. And Squamish is more well known for, for, you know, being maybe the best place in the world to ride mountain bike right now. And he kind of, he didn't laugh at me, but he is like, you're crazy, you know, that's, you know, but. Yeah. And then here we are. So, yeah, it was Laro for sure. A hundred percent. That's the, the one in, in, in Tuscany first weekend of October is the best I think event I've ever I've ever participated in. [00:12:23] Craig Dalton: Amazing. And tell me first off, I'm, I'm interested in how you first discovered Clinton, but for those of us who are geographically challenged for Canadians Canadian landscape, where, where is Clinton in the country and, and where is sort of closer by way points, people might be familiar with. [00:12:40] Kelly: Yeah, I mean, I'll maybe with the geography where it's located the closest sort of major center would be a city called Camloops. So Camloops is you know, got a, a huge history with cycling, but Yeah right now there's a company called we one composite that we ride their, their wheels. They produce carbon fiber wheels there. They're located there. Yeah, I mean, south sort of central British Columbia. Definitely not, not Northern BC, but we're about two hours. Say from Whistler. To give people an idea. So, yeah, you you're, you're definitely out of the populated areas of British Columbia. It's really wide open terrain here at me and ride in every direction. So, yeah, that's where we're located. I guess the most famous spot would be, would be Whistler, you know, International, you know, mountain bike destination. So yeah, just a couple hours drive north from there, but yeah, totally different zone than than around a Whistler. [00:13:36] Craig Dalton: How did you yeah. How did you find yourself there? And, and what did you discover on those first rides? [00:13:42] Kelly: yeah, I mean, it was again random. I just maybe keep using that word. Just was a rep in the industry, like I said, and you know, would travel from living in Squamish and around British Columbia to see, see my accounts and yeah kept coming up to this region that, that we call home now in Clinton, it's called the caribou region. Of BC. And yeah. See my, my accounts up here and do some riding, do some races and then have a good friend that lives up here just north of us. And he's a pilot in with firefighting. So, and a cyclist as well. And he was always, you know, like, Hey, I know you live in Squamish, but you know, Hey, you should get up to the caribou. It's awesome. Up here. Know for cycling. And again, he didn't say gravel cycling, but he flies over all these roads that we now ride. So he has a real bug in my ear, just, you know, Hey, come on, you know, just spend some more time up here. Cause I'd always be up here and through here, but just, you know, spend more time, not just, you know, an afternoon or a day, you know, so kept doing that, kept doing that. And then. I would point back to really 2019, the fall of 2019 was up here shooting some photos with a brand called seven mesh who's from Squamish they're they're they're yeah, an awesome brand making some of the best clothing out there and yeah, just they invited me to come up, shoot some photos and I think it was really meant to be for me to be here at that time. Yeah, it all clicked. I mean, the weather was clicking or out, you know, shooting photos on these roads, which I'd ridden before. And I looked over to the photographer and I just said, you know, like, this is awesome. Like, this is unreal. And, and really just to, just to sort of round this out, I was heading to Italy a couple of days after the shoot to go do the out route. Stelio in Bo. I've been there many times. And I basically said to, to the photographer, I just said, you know, why am I going to Italy? Like this is paradise for gravel cycling. Not, not, not, not road riding, but gravel cycling. This gives me the same vibes as I get. Flying all the way around the world, going to our friend's bike hotel in Bormio and like this is amazing. And yeah, that night I went back to where we were staying and I looked at real estate and pulled up the houses for sale in Clinton because. I saw Clinton as a, you know, the center of it all he could ride in, you know, every direction, in my opinion. And yeah, called a realtor, found a house that looked like it would fit the bill, a big old house, commercially owned. And yeah, he picked up the phone and he met me there the next day and put an offer that day on it. And yeah, close the deal while we're in Italy at our friends bike hotel telling 'em all about gravel. yeah. [00:16:27] Craig Dalton: What an amazing, amazing origin story there. Did you always have the idea that you were gonna call it a gravel in and make it this hub for adventure? [00:16:35] Kelly: A hundred percent. We had some people say early on, you know, Hey, you're hanging your hat pretty hard on gravel. Like, you know, do you know what you're doing? And I said, well, Yeah. What makes this area special is gravel. Like we love mountain biking too. We have mountain bikes, but for me, what and my wife, Erin as well, what made this area special was gravel cycling. And we wanted to stay specific to that. Anyone can, can ride any bike. As we say, you can ride a mountain bike. You can ride a gravel bike here. Unicycle, you know, whatever, I don't care. It's, it's just, just ride a bike. But yeah, we hung our hat on gravel because yeah, we wanna do to focus right on, on gravel cycling and building a community here around cycling because it's more of an industry community it's origins which is fine. I've worked in industry back to the tree planting, so it's all coming back, back to together, but yeah, gravel That that's our focus. That's what we really love. It's really. Come on with me just the last number of years, I just love the solitude of it, just getting away from it all. So, and there's no bike hotels around really north America. I mean, I, I can't, there is no other gravel cycling hotel that I'm aware of. I mean, there should be a network around and we wanna do stake our claim to that and, you know, say, Hey, let's, let's get this going. Like, let's. Have facilities for, for cyclists, let's create culture here with cycling you know, and good community sort of support and have some fun while we're doing it. So, yeah, we hung our hat a hundred percent on gravel calling it 2d gravel in. So [00:18:05] Craig Dalton: Yeah, that's great. Yeah. I think you're right in north America while I can point to a few kind of cycling specific hotels. It's nowhere near what you have in Europe and elsewhere in the world. And there's some subtleties. When you go into a cycling hotel or cycling accommodations, they just have the little things for you, right? They've got a, a place where you can wash your bike. They've got pumps, they've got tools and the staff is always well versed in what are the local roots and local highlights. So I think it's a great concept. And I'm, I've been big on the podcast about talking about gravel travel. And a lot of times that gets couched in a conversation about a particular event. So you might go to Colorado to go to S B T gravel or up to Canada for trans Rockies, gravel, Royal, but in some ways, traveling to a place like Clinton and, and you're in is even a better use of your time because unlike a race where you might be thinking, gosh, I don't know whether I'm gonna be like complete it, or I have aspirations of going really fast. Obviously you're gonna be super focused and you're not gonna do a lot of riding. In the days leading up to the race. But if you go on a gravel cycling holiday, all you're gonna do is ride. You know, you're gonna go up there for four days and you're gonna pick four mega roots and just ride as much as you possibly can. [00:19:23] Kelly: Yeah, that's true. We, we love racing and we will put on a race here next year. We do a char, we did a charity ride here called caribou gravel rush. So yeah, we love organized events and, and things like that. But yeah, first things first we wanna create a good community sort of. Spirit here around cycling. Everyone's in favor of what we're doing. Everyone's really supportive, lots of high fives and, you know, thumbs up and whatnot from the ranchers and people like that. So, But yeah, you definitely can come to a place like ours or some of the other hotels around the world and yeah, you can spend your money in a little different way. You can ride, you know, to a lake and go jump in the lake, chill out, have some beers. But yeah, we can also provide people with some pretty big rides that , you know, we don't try and blow smoke. Obviously we need to promote our business. But yeah, we've got some rides here that are truly epic. I mean, that's an overused term in my opinion. Yeah, we, we have some epic rides here that definitely can punish you and spit you out the other side if, if you're looking for that, but there's also rides here that, like I said, you can just go on a nice. You know, fairly chill ride and, you know, go through some ranches and see some, some wildlife and things like that. So, but yeah, racing's awesome too. Just just different, same but different, right. [00:20:41] Craig Dalton: Yeah. I've had the benefit of looking at your website and looking at a map and getting a sense for where Clinton is. And you've spoken a little bit about. You know, the remoteness of the in, if someone was coming for two or three days, how would you describe the type of riding you would suggest? Let's just sort of make the assumption that the group is relatively fit and, and up for, you know, three, four hour, five hour rides, what would you be preparing them for expectation wise, if you were to say like, these are the three route I would have you go on during your three day. [00:21:14] Kelly: yeah, there's definitely some classic roots. I mean, there's, you know, I. Pick my favorite roots and just say, Hey, you should really go here. You know, this is a must do. Just like if you were to go somewhere else, I mean, the trainers is, is incredibly varied. So what we like to do is yeah, suggest roots for people. A lot of them have never been here. We are, we do have a lot of return guests, but for people, for instance, that have never been here. We love blowing them away because we know what's out there. And they don't right. They just maybe see photos or something like that or heard things, but we know what's out there. So we love it. When we send people out on a route and say, Hey, you're gonna go here. You're gonna see this, this, this, and this, and we're really stoked to, to hear what, what you say when you when you come back and that's what makes it all worth it for us when people roll back in here and, you know, Hey, we're, we're you know, self-conscious about it. Let's be honest. We want people to have a good time. And we're like, Hey, what did you think? And people like their eyes are just like wide open. Like that was the best ride I've ever done. Or that was amazing. Or, oh my God, I didn't expect that. So, yeah, we've got it all. Truly, we've got really more desolate sort of wide open desert-like kind of roads. Out here. We've got roads going through the mountains lakes and things and yeah, lots of randomness it's really mixed here. So, what we do try to prepare people for is just to say, Hey, you know, what do you like? What kind of riding do you like? Do you like descending? Do you like megas deep climbs? You like suffering? What do you like? And, and then we try to do the best we can to create custom roots for our guests. Yeah, we love doing that because again, we have the knowledge we live here day in, day out. We know all the ins and outs, all the little secret spots, we know the ranchers and so on. And yeah, we just, we love that. So, Yeah, people can, can really tick off a lot of boxes you know, here, and they can also discover some boxes, so to speak that they didn't new existed. Like there's a ferry here where you can take a, you know, a cablecar ferry across the most important river, major river called the Frazier river here in BC and go to the other side of the river and, you know, Like that's part of your ride. There's, there's not many places or really anywhere that I know of that you can do things like that. Just mid ride and it's free. And, and it's just yeah. What an experience that is. So, [00:23:39] Craig Dalton: Yeah, that's quite an, that makes for quite an adventure, for sure. You know, one of the things, obviously across north America, you've got lots of places that are flatter with undulating Hills. I'm assuming in that region of Canada. The climbs that you're encountering are, are fairly substantial in nature. [00:23:55] Kelly: Yeah, there's some for sure. I mean, this wouldn't be like, you're maybe going you know, to the Alps or the Domine or something like that in Italy, you know, but there's some really steep climbs here. There's a one climb in particular that, you know, it's marked in half kilometer. Or, you know, miles to, to people following in the us in, in, you know, half sort of, segments like that, because you're going so slow but such beautiful scenery. I mean, you're just crawling along, you know, suffering away, looking at the scenery around you. So, yeah, and it can get hot here. You know, it's a really diverse sort of. You know, ecosystem or environment, I guess we have here, so really mixed bags. So, yeah, I mean, it's just there are some tough climbs around, there's lots of rolling terrain, but for people that like to climb that sort of you know, puff their feathers out like that, that they love to climb, then definitely we can provide that. And there's many stratas segments here to, to go chase down. So for sure, there's some Hills here. [00:24:53] Craig Dalton: What would sort of be the, the longest climb you could get in front of, in terms of feet or meters of, [00:24:58] Kelly: Oh, yeah. I would say maybe about the, the, the toughest one around is to say about doesn't sound like much about a 10 K climb. So, but the grades are just really, really steep. It'll take most people, some people would walk it to be honest, we've got some Hills like that. So about 10 K and Yeah, just really steep in grades. But lots of switch back so that, that goes and you know, Softens it a little bit, at least you can turn a corner or two and have a look and, you know, be tough to go and take photos and pull your iPhone out and take a photo on, on that one. But and there's lots more here, right? I mean, we don't profess to know it all. I mean, we we love, enjoy enjoying to get out there to to explore and find new roots and new climbs and new places for our guests to ride. So, yeah, there's probably some more out there that. We haven't ridden yet, but yeah, we just keep pushing, but yeah, there's some big Hills for sure. Climbers are welcome here. [00:25:56] Craig Dalton: And let's transition now and let's talk about the, in itself. If you could just give us a little bit of an overview of like how many people you can accommodate, what, what the experience looks like, you know, are you, are you dining exclusively at the end or does Clinton have other restaurants to offer and other activities? [00:26:14] Kelly: Yeah, like I said, it's a big old commercially zoned house. So yeah, we can accommodate really big groups. We've got two guest suites at the moment soon to be three. So our main guest suite that I'm in now is a five bed, two bath guest suites. So completely separate and private from the others. We've had up depending if we have couples. So we've had up to 12 guests in here. And then another adjoining suite that's again, separate is a nice little one bed, one bath. So we've had, you know, up to four in there depending, you know, just there's a sofa bed in there as well. So we keep expanding and so that that's there. And then we've just built a hundred square foot, little Bunky, as we say. Outback. So a little tiny house. Some people would sort of maybe refer to it as that. So which will, will accommodate another two people when it's complete. So, yeah, we've had really big groups, so yeah, I mean really depending on, on who it is and if it's couples or singles or whatever, you know, we're approaching, you know, really, you. 1516 guests quite comfortably just in this property. So, and then, yeah, we, we do have our eyes on expansion all all the time, but this house has a, has a really neat story behind it as well. I'm not sure if I mentioned this to you, but we got a message on Instagram, maybe about a year and a half ago. I'd say from a guy just, you know, following us and, you know, said some nice things and. All that. And at the bottom of the message, he said I'm not sure if he knew, but I grew up in the house and I was like, wow, we grew up in the house. I was like, mm. We knew who we bought from. And it wasn't a gentleman. It was a, it was an older lady. And so I was like, wow, I gotta look at this. Guy's his profile. So, go to his profile and I almost dropped the phone because. Having worked in the bike industry. I knew some of the, the people in the industry I'd never met this gentleman, but it turns out it turns out it'd be a guy named Peter valence used to be a brand manager at Rocky mountain bicycles. And then now is current global vice president of product at Cannondale. So, I mean, it still gives us goose bumps and, and whatnot. That he grew up here. His family did a pottery business here, which we knew about the pottery business, but I never ever thought it would be the same, the same family. So, Peter was just here earlier in August, which was a big, you know, milestone for us, what a cool experience to have him and his entire family and their kids here where they grew up and So, yeah, that's the story of the, in a lot of people call it the, in now we, we noticed that after, you know, three years in business is our third year in business. So it's a bit of the, the history on the, on the property. Yeah. [00:28:52] Craig Dalton: cool. And then as far as like, as far as, are you doing a bed and breakfast style where you're serving breakfast and dinner or what? What's the story [00:28:59] Kelly: You know, with the, the name Tuti, I mean, obviously we love Italy. We've had a lot of great times over there and, you know, not just cycling, I mean, you know, food. So, we offer woodfired pizza. My wife Erin makes the dough homemade. We get vegetables and. Things that we need locally from, from farmer's markets and ranches and things like that. And so we offer that if guests wanna book that with us, they, they can add that on to their stay. We have a, a coffee bar out back with a rocket espresso machine another Italian sort of touch there. If people want, you know, great coffee in the morning, we can do that. Each suite has its own kitchen. So, you know, some people like to cook and we wanna, we want to. Facilitate that as well. But then that's kind of where we end things because we also want people to, to go and support some of the local businesses here that we have in Clinton. It's a small little village. It's 600 people ish. At the moment, there's a few little restaurants and, and things like that. So, our attitude is that yeah, obviously come stay with us and we stay gravel specific and, you know, look after people in that regard and a few other little things, Woodard pizza and, and coffee. But we also want people to go to, you know, Check out some of the, the other places in town, there's a pub right across the street. Yeah. We love when our guests go over there, have some beers and we don't have the attitude that, you know, Hey, these are our guests, you know, don't go to other businesses or whatever, because. That's just not you know, our attitude and our spirit behind you know, our business. So, and yeah, it's great. People come and, you know, stay with us and then, yeah, they're free to do what works best for them. And we kind of like the ALA carte sort of, way of doing things. Hey, you might not need coffee or whatever, you know, or wood fired pizza. That's cool. But if you do, Hey, we can, we can work that out. So [00:30:46] Craig Dalton: And then are you, are you offering rental bikes there or are people bringing their own [00:30:50] Kelly: Yep. People bring their bikes. But yeah, we do have rental bikes yeah. To name, drop our, our bikes or land yachts bikes from Vancouver. They're a great supporter of our business. We've been with them from day one using their bikes. We've got some custom bikes for ourselves, but yeah, they make some great Rental bikes for us and for us to get rental bikes as a small business at this time when there's such a bike sort of crunch, so to speak. Yeah, they pulled out all the stops to get us six bikes this year, really beautiful steel steel bikes, and yeah, it's great. We can You know, have our guests, you know, have an experience on their bikes if they've never tried one of their bikes, but we're getting internationals as well now. So, some of those folks we had our first Italian fly over here and he was here for five days and yeah, he rented a bike cause he didn't wanna travel with one. So bike rental's big for us. And yeah, E E gravel is something else we really want to get into as well. Because I think it's It's such a great thing to get more people on bikes, you know, and great for storytelling too, with brands because yeah, they're just fantastic for sure. [00:31:53] Craig Dalton: Yeah, it's so nice. You know, on a, on a family holiday to be able to pair up maybe incompatible riders with one on an e-bike and one on a pedal bike. So that's certainly a good option. Speaking of international travels, if someone's coming to the, in internationally, where do they fly into and how long of a drive is it from that airport? [00:32:12] Kelly: Yeah, I would say most people would fly into Vancouver. We've had a few people fly into Seattle and then cross the border and then come up that way. Just say from Vancouver. You know how traffic can be, but you know, four or five hours kind of thing, you know, a really, you know, beautiful drive with options. There's, there's a couple of different ways to, to get up here. A lot of people would probably choose to go up through Whistler. And come this way. And we get some mountain bikers too, that are cyclist. Let's call 'em cyclists, not just mountain bikers, but people that are riding mountain bikes and they ride gravel too. Right. So they come up through Whistler, you know, maybe do a ride and then continue on to Clinton. So I'd say Vancouver, but other than that cam loops would be just over an hour away. And it's a, it's a fairly good sized regional airport with really easy access. [00:33:01] Craig Dalton: Yeah, that makes sense. I certainly see the value of stopping off at Whistler for a few runs on the way that would, that would be [00:33:09] Kelly: bet. Yeah. I mean, yeah, we're we, we mountain bike too. So, I mean, of course we, we focus on gravel, but we're cyclist. And yeah, mountain biking's great. Gravel's great. It's all great. So yeah, I mean, a lot of our guests do other disciplines of, of cycling. But to us, I mean, our sales pitch on gravel to people that maybe haven't tried it yet is you know, this isn't just, I guess our opinion, this is our, you know, three years in business meeting, a lot of people, you know, guests coming to stay with us and, you know, chatting about what they think gravel is or whatever, over a few beers and the backyard having a campfire. Really gravel. I've not seen another discipline in cycling some, you know, someone you could correct me if I'm wrong, that really could, it can, you know, pull in people from all different You know, disciplines of cycling, you know, the roadies, get it, the triathletes are, are, you know, maybe not wanting to go to Whistler to go ride the bike park, you know, for the most part, but Hey, gravel, they get it. They love the speed, you know, suffering, whatever it is. We've had iron man, you know, triathletes, come here, this love suffering. These guys are crazy what they do. So, you know, and then mountain bikers, get it, you know, too because they love being off road. You know, most mountain bikers. Aren't. Riding on, on highways and things like that. So, and then a lot of new people, it's just incredible. We'll see you know, new cyclists here buying their first bike, excuse me. And you know, we're just, you know, doing some research and, and whatnot and say, Hey, like, you know, you've cycled a lot before you're new to cycling. It's like, Nope, I just bought a gravel bike. My friend told me that's what I should get because they're awesome. And it looks like a good time. And, you know, we get a lot of people from urban centers. So, yeah, gravel bike. I mean, yeah, you can use it for, of course gravel cycling but you know, commuting, urban assault, bike, packing, whatever. So they're very versatile. So that's, that's really been a, mindblower seeing people for their first bike to go and, and buy a gravel bike. So truly to us back to that rant is gravel cycling. I truly believe is, is the center of cycling, you know, put that out there, but that's what we've, we've seen, you know, that's what we've seen with our guests. [00:35:14] Craig Dalton: Yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. I mean, I agree with all those points and it's just it's such an inviting part of the sport that gives you the versatility to go wherever you wanna take it. So I'm certainly sold. Obviously, everybody listening to this podcast is on the same page. Kelly totally appreciate giving me the overview of the in. I think it's an exciting concept. As I said in the opening, like I do really love the idea of gravel travel and I think from everything I've seen from where you're located, I don't doubt it's gonna be some great riding up there. So I look forward to getting up there and I wish you well, that's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Kelly and learning more about the riding in Clinton, Canada, and the two D gravel in big thanks to our sponsor logos components and their new omnium wheel set. Check them out at www.logoscomponents.com. If you're interested in connecting with the podcast, I encourage you to join the ridership that's www.theridership.com. It's a free online cycling community where you can interact with myself and athletes from around the world. If you're interested in supporting the podcast, please visit buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride. We're ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated. Until next time. Here's to finding some dirt under your wheels  

About KellyKellyAnn Fitzpatrick is a Senior Industry Analyst at RedMonk, the developer-focused industry analyst firm. Having previously worked as a QA analyst, test & release manager, and tech writer, she has experience with containers, CI/CD, testing frameworks, documentation, and training. She has also taught technical communication to computer science majors at the Georgia Institute of Technology as a Brittain Postdoctoral Fellow.Holding a Ph.D. in English from the University at Albany and a B.A. in English and Medieval Studies from the University of Notre Dame, KellyAnn's side projects include teaching, speaking, and writing about medievalism (the ways that post-medieval societies reimagine or appropriate the Middle Ages), and running to/from donut shops.Links: RedMonk: https://redmonk.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/drkellyannfitz TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Today's episode is brought to you in part by our friends at MinIO the high-performance Kubernetes native object store that's built for the multi-cloud, creating a consistent data storage layer for your public cloud instances, your private cloud instances, and even your edge instances, depending upon what the heck you're defining those as, which depends probably on where you work. It's getting that unified is one of the greatest challenges facing developers and architects today. It requires S3 compatibility, enterprise-grade security and resiliency, the speed to run any workload, and the footprint to run anywhere, and that's exactly what MinIO offers. With superb read speeds in excess of 360 gigs and 100 megabyte binary that doesn't eat all the data you've gotten on the system, it's exactly what you've been looking for. Check it out today at min.io/download, and see for yourself. That's min.io/download, and be sure to tell them that I sent you.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle HeatWave is a new high-performance query accelerator for the Oracle MySQL Database Service, although I insist on calling it “my squirrel.” While MySQL has long been the worlds most popular open source database, shifting from transacting to analytics required way too much overhead and, ya know, work. With HeatWave you can run your OLAP and OLTP—don't ask me to pronounce those acronyms again—workloads directly from your MySQL database and eliminate the time-consuming data movement and integration work, while also performing 1100X faster than Amazon Aurora and 2.5X faster than Amazon Redshift, at a third of the cost. My thanks again to Oracle Cloud for sponsoring this ridiculous nonsense.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud, I'm Corey Quinn. It's always a good day when I get to sit down and have a chat with someone who works over at our friends at RedMonk. Today is no exception because after trying for, well, an embarrassingly long time, my whining and pleading has finally borne fruit, and I'm joined by Kelly Fitzpatrick, who's a senior industry analyst at RedMonk. Kelly, thank you for, I guess, finally giving in to my always polite, but remarkably persistent requests to show up on the show.Kelly: Great, thanks for having me. It's great to finally be on the show.Corey: So, let's start at the very beginning because I am always shockingly offended whenever it happens, but some people don't actually know what RedMonk is. What is it you'd say it is that you folks do?Kelly: Oh, I love this question. Because it's like, “What do you do,” versus, “What are you?” And that's a very big difference. And I'm going to start with maybe what we are. So, we are a developer-focused industry analyst firm. You put all those things, kind of, together.And in terms of what we do, it means that we follow tech trends. And that's something that many industry analysts do, but our perspective is really interested in developers specifically and then practitioners more broadly. So, it's not just, “Okay, these are things that are happening in tech that you care about if you're a CIO,” but what tech things affect developers in terms of how they're building software and why they want to build software and where they're building software?Corey: So, backing it up slightly because it turns out that I don't know the answer to this either. What exactly is an industry analyst firm? And the reason I bring this up is I've been invited to industry analyst events, and that is entirely your colleague, James Governor's, fault because he took me out for lunch at I think it was Google Next a few years ago and said, “Oh, you're definitely an analyst.” “Okay, cool. Well, I don't think I am. Why should I be an analyst?”“Oh, because companies have analyst budgets.” “Oh, you said, analyst”—protip: Never get in the way of people trying to pay you to do things. But I still feel like I don't know what an analyst is, in this sense. Which means I'm about to get a whole bunch of refund requests when this thing airs.Kelly: I should hope not. But industry analysts, one of the jokes that we have around RedMonk is how do we explain to our families what an industry analyst is? And I think even Steve and James, who are RedMonk's founders, they've been doing this for quite a long time, like, much longer than they ever want to admit that they do, and they still are like, “Okay, how do I explain this to my parents?” Or you know, anyone else who's asking, and partly, it's almost like a very—a term that you'll see in the tech industry, but outside of it doesn't really have that much, kind of, currency in the same way that you can tell someone that you're like, maybe a business analyst or something like that, or any of those, almost like spy-like versions of analyst. I think was it The Hunt for Red October, the actual hero of that is an analyst, but not the type of analyst that I am in any way, shape or form.But you know, industry analyst firms, specifically, it's like we keep up on what tech is out there. People engage with us because they want to know what to buy for the things that they're doing and the things that they're building, or how to better create and sell the stuff that they are building to people who build software. So, in our case, it's like, all right, what type of tools are developers using? And where does this particular tool that our company is building fit into that? And how do you talk about that with developers in a way that makes sense to them?Corey: On some level, what I imagine your approach to this stuff is aligns somewhat with my own. Before you became an industry analyst, which I'm still not entirely sure I know what that is—I'm sorry, not your fault; just so many expressions of it out there—before you wound up down that path, you were a QA manager; you wound up effectively finding interesting bugs in software, documentation, et cetera. And, on some level, that's, I think, what has made me even somewhat useful in the space is I'll go ahead and try and build something out of something that a vendor has released, and huh, the documentation says it should work this way, but I try it and it breaks and it fails. And the response is always invariably the same, which is, “That's interesting,” which is engineering-speak for, “What the hell is that?” I have this knack for stumbling over weird issues, and I feel like that aligns with what makes for a successful QA person. Is that directionally correct, or am I dramatically misunderstanding things and I'm just accident-prone?Kelly: [laugh]. No, I think that makes a lot of sense. And especially coming from QA where it's like, not just making sure that something works, but making sure that something doesn't break if you try to break it in different ways, the things that are not necessarily the expected, you know, behaviors, that type of mindset, I think, for me translated very easily to, kind of, being an analyst. Because it's about asking questions; it's about not just taking the word of your developers that this software works, but going and seeing if it actually does and kind of getting your hands dirty, and in some cases, trying to figure out where certain problems or who broke the build, or why did the build break is always kind of super fun mystery that I love doing—not really, but, like, everyone kind of has to do it—and I think that translates to the analyst world where it's like, what pieces of these systems, or tech stacks, or just the way information is being conveyed about them is working or is not, and in what ways can people kind of maybe see things a different way that the people who are building or writing about these things did not anticipate?Corey: From my position, and this is one of the reasons I sort of started down this whole path is if I'm trying to build something with a product or a platform—or basically anything, it doesn't really matter what—and the user experience is bad, or there are bugs that get in my way, my default response—even now—is not, “Oh, this thing's a piece of crap that's nowhere near ready for primetime use,” but instead, it's, “Oh, I'm not smart enough to figure out how to use it.” It becomes a reflection on the user, and they feel bad as a result. And I don't like that for anyone, for any product because it doesn't serve the product well, it certainly doesn't serve the human being trying to use it and failing well, and from a pure business perspective, it certainly doesn't serve the ability to solve a business problem in any meaningful respect. So, that has been one of the reasons that I've been tilting at that particular windmill for as long as I have.Kelly: I think that makes sense because you can have the theoretically best, most innovative, going to change everyone's lives for the better, product in the world, but if nobody can use it, it's not going to change the world.Corey: As you take a look at your time at RedMonk, which has been, I believe, four years, give or take?Kelly: We're going to say three to four.Corey: Three to four? Because you've been promoted twice in your time there, let's be very clear, and this is clearly a—Kelly: That's a very, very astute observation on your part.Corey: It is a meteoric rise. And what makes that also fascinating from my perspective, is that despite being a company that is, I believe, 19 years old, you aren't exactly a giant company that throws bodies at problems. I believe you have seven full-time employees, two of whom have been hired in the last quarter.Kelly: That's true. So, seven full-time employees and five analysts. So, we have—of that it's five analysts, and we only added a fifth analyst the beginning of this year, with Dr. Kate Holterhoff. [unintelligible 00:08:09], kind of, bring her on the team.So, we had been operating with, like, kind of, six full-time employees. We were like, “We need some more resources in this area.” And we heard another analyst, which if you talk about, okay, we hired one more, but when you're talking about hiring one more and adding that to a team of, like, four analysts, it's such a big difference, just in terms of, kind of, resources. And I think your observation about you ca—we don't just throw bodies at problems is kind of correct. That is absolutely not the way we go about things at all.Corey: At a company that is taking the same model that The Duckbill Group does—by which I mean not raising a bunch of outside money is, as best I can tell—that means that you have to fall back on this ancient business model known as making more money than it costs to run the place every month, you don't get to do this massive scaled out hiring thing. So, bringing on multiple employees at a relatively low turnover company means that suddenly you're onboarding not just one new person, but two. What has that been like? Because to be very clear, if you're hiring 20 engineers or whatnot, okay, great, and you're having significant turnover, yeah, onboarding two folks is not that big of a deal, but this is a significant percentage of your team.Kelly: It is. And so for us—and Kate started at the beginning of this year, so she's only been here for a bit—but in terms of onboarding another analyst, this is something where I haven't done before, but, like, my colleagues have, whereas the other new member of our team, Morgan Harris, who is our Account Engagement Manager, and she is amazing, and has also, like, very interesting background and client success in, like, fashion, which is, you know, awesome when I'm trying to figure out what [unintelligible 00:09:48] fit I need to do, we have someone in-house who can actually give me advice on that. But that's not something that we have onboarded for that role very much in the past, so bringing on someone where they're the only person in their role and, like, having to begin to learn the role. And then also to bring in another analyst where we have a little bit more experience onboarding analysts, it takes a lot of patience for everybody involved. And the thing I love about RedMonk and the people that I get to work with is that they actually have that patience and we function very well as, like, a team.And because of that, I think things that could really have thrown us off course, like losing an account engagement or onboarding one and then onboarding a new analyst, like, over the holidays, during a pandemic, and everything else that is happening, it's going much more smoothly than it could have otherwise.Corey: These are abnormal times, to be sure. It's one of those things where it's, we're a couple years into a pandemic now, and I still feel like we haven't really solved most of the problems that this has laid bare, which kind of makes me despair of ever really figuring out what that's going to look like down the road.Kelly: Yeah, absolutely. And there is very much the sense that, “Okay, we should be kind of back to normal, going to in-person conferences.” And then you get to an in-person conference, and then they all move back to virtual or, as in your case, you go to an in-person conference and then you have to sequester yourself away from your family for a couple of weeks to make sure that you're not bringing something home.Corey: So, I have to ask. You have been quoted as saying that 2022—for those listening, that is this year—is the year of documentation. You're onboarding two new people into a company that does not see significant turnover, which means that invariably, “Oh, it's been a while since we've updated the documentation. Whoops-a-doozy,” is a pretty common experience there. How much of your assertion that this is the year of documentation comes down to the, “Huh. Our onboarding stuff is really out of date,” versus a larger thing that you're seeing in the industry?Kelly: That is a great question because you never know what your documentation is like until you have someone new, kind of, come in with fresh eyes, has a perspective not only on, “Okay, I have no idea what this means,” or, “This is not where I thought it would be,” or, “This, you know, system is not working in any… in any way similar to anything I have ever seen in any other part of my, like, kind of, working career.” So, that's where you really see what kind of gaps you have, but then you also kind of get to see which parts are working out really well. And not to spend, kind of, too much on that, but one of the best things that my coworkers did for me when I started was, Rachel Stephens had kept a log of, like, all the questions that she had as a new analyst. And she just, like, gave that to me with some advice on different things, like, in a spreadsheet, which I think is—I love spreadsheets so much and so does Rachel. And I think I might love spreadsheets more than Rachel at this point, even though she actually has a hat that says, “Spreadsheets.”But when Kate started, it was fascinating to go through that and see what parts of that were either no longer relevant because the entire world had changed, or because the industry had advanced, or because there's all these new things you need to know now that we're not on the list of things that you needed to know three years ago. And then what other, even, topics belong down on that kind of list of things to know. So, I think documentation is always a good, like, check-in for things like that.But going back to, like, your larger question. So, documentation is important, not just because we happened to be onboarding, but a lot of people, I think once they no longer could be in the office with people and rely on that kind of face-to-face conversations to smooth over things began, I think, to realize how essential documentation was to just their everyday to day, kind of, working lives. So, I think that's something that we've definitely seen from the pandemic. But then there are certainly other signals in the software industry-specific, which we can go into or not depending on your level of interest.Corey: Well, something that I see that I have never been a huge fan of in corporate life—and it feels like it is very much a broad spectrum—has been that on one side of the coin, you have this idea that everything we do is bespoke and we just hire smart people and get out of their way. Yeah, that's more uncontrolled anarchy than it is a repeatable company process around anything. And the other extreme is this tendency that companies have, particularly the large, somewhat slow-moving companies, to attempt to codify absolutely everything. It almost feels like it derives from the what I believe to be mistaken belief that with enough process, eventually you can arrive at the promised land where you don't have to have intelligent, dynamic people working behind things, you can basically distill it down to follow the script and push the buttons in the proper order, and any conceivable outcome is going to be achieved. I don't know if that's accurate, but that's always how it felt when you start getting too deeply mired in documentation-slash-process as almost religion.Kelly: And I think—you know, I agree. There has to be something between, “All right, we don't document anything and it's not necessary and we don't need it.” And then—Corey: “We might get raided by the FBI. We want nothing written down.” At which point it's like, what do you do here? Yeah.Kelly: Yeah. Leave no evidence, leave no paper trail of anything like that. And going too far into thinking that processes is absolutely everything, and that absolutely anyone can be plugged into any given role and things will be equally successful, or that we'll just be automated away or become just these, kind of, automatons. And I think that balance, it's important to think about that because while documentation is important, and you know, I will say 2022, I think we're going to hear more and more about it, we see it more as an increasingly valuable thing in tech, you can't solve everything with documentation. You can use it as the, kind of, duct tape and baling wire for some of the things that your company is doing, but throwing documentation at it is not going to fix things in the same way that throwing engineers at a problem is not going to fix it either. Or most problems. I mean, there are some that you can just throw engineers at.Corey: Well, there's a company wiki, also known as where documentation goes to die.Kelly: It is. And those, like, internal wikis, as horrible as they can be in terms of that's where knowledge goes to die as well, places that have nothing like that, it can be even more chaotic than places that are relying on the, kind of, company internal wiki.Corey: So, delving into a bit of a different topic here, before you were in the QA universe, you were what distills down to an academic. And I know that sometimes that can be interpreted as a personal attack in some quarters; I assure you, despite my own eighth grade level of education, that is not how this is intended at all. Your undergraduate degree was in medieval history—or medieval studies and your PhD was in English. So, a couple of questions around that. One, when we talk about medieval studies, are we talking about writing analyst reports about Netscape Navigator, or are we talking things a bit later in the sweep of history than that?Kelly: I appreciate the Netscape Navigator reference. I get that reference.Corey: Well, yeah. Medieval studies; you have to.Kelly: Medieval studies, when you—where we study the internet in the 1990s, basically. I completely lost the line of questioning that you're asking because I was just so taken by the Netscape Navigator reference.Corey: Well, thank you. Started off with the medieval studies history. So, medieval studies of things dating back to, I guess, before we had reasonably recorded records in a consistent way. And also Twitter. But I'm wondering how much of that lends itself to what you do as an analyst.Kelly: Quite a bit. And as much as I want to say, it's all Monty Python references all the time, it isn't. But the disciplinary rigor that you have to pick up as a medievalist or as anyone who's getting any kind of PhD ever, you know, for the most part, that very much easily translated to being an analyst. And even more so tech culture is, in so many ways, like, enamored—there's these pop culture medieval-isms that a lot of people who move in technical circles appreciate. And that kind of overlap for me was kind of fascinating.So, when I started, like, working in tech, the fact that I was like writing a dissertation on Lord of the Rings was this little interesting thing that my coworkers could, like, kind of latch on to and talk about with me, that had nothing to do with tech and that had nothing to do with the seemingly scary parts of being an academic.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Vultr. Spelled V-U-L-T-R because they're all about helping save money, including on things like, you know, vowels. So, what they do is they are a cloud provider that provides surprisingly high performance cloud compute at a price that—while sure they claim its better than AWS pricing—and when they say that they mean it is less money. Sure, I don't dispute that but what I find interesting is that it's predictable. They tell you in advance on a monthly basis what it's going to going to cost. They have a bunch of advanced networking features. They have nineteen global locations and scale things elastically. Not to be confused with openly, because apparently elastic and open can mean the same thing sometimes. They have had over a million users. Deployments take less that sixty seconds across twelve pre-selected operating systems. Or, if you're one of those nutters like me, you can bring your own ISO and install basically any operating system you want. Starting with pricing as low as $2.50 a month for Vultr cloud compute they have plans for developers and businesses of all sizes, except maybe Amazon, who stubbornly insists on having something to scale all on their own. Try Vultr today for free by visiting: vultr.com/screaming, and you'll receive a $100 in credit. Thats V-U-L-T-R.com slash screaming.Corey: I want to talk a little bit about the idea of academic rigor because to my understanding, in the academic world, the publication process is… I don't want to say it's arduous. But if people subjected my blog post anything approaching this, I would never write another one as long as I lived. How does that differ? Because a lot of what I write is off-the-cuff stuff—and I'm not just including tweets, but also tweets—whereas academic literature winds up in peer-reviewed journals and effectively expands the boundaries of our collective societal knowledge as we know it. And it does deserve a different level of scrutiny, let's be clear. But how do you find that shifts given that you are writing full-on industry analyst reports, which is something that we almost never do on our side, just honestly, due to my own peccadilloes?Kelly: You should write some industry reports. They're so fun. They're very fun.Corey: I am so bad at writing the long-form stuff. And we've done one or two previously, and each time my business partner had to basically hold my nose to the grindstone by force to get me to ship, on some level.Kelly: And also, I feel like you might be underselling the amount of writing talent it takes to tweet.Corey: It depends. You can get a lot more trouble tweeting than you can in academia most of the time. Every Twitter person is Reviewer 2. It becomes this whole great thing of, “Well, did you consider this edge corner case nuance?” It's, “I've got to say, in 208 any characters, not really. Kind of ran out of space.”Kelly: Yeah, there's no space at all. And it's not what that was intended. But going back to your original question about, like, you know, academic publishing and that type of process, I don't miss it. And I have actually published some academic pieces since I became an analyst. So, my book finally came out after I had started as—it came out the end of 2019 and I had already been at RedMonk for a year.It's an academic book; it has nothing to do with being an industry analyst. And I had an essay come out in another collection around the same time. So, I've had that come out, but the thing is, the cycle for that started about a year earlier. So, the timeframe for getting things out in, especially the humanities, can be very arduous and frustrating because you're kind of like, “I wrote this thing. I want it to actually appear somewhere that people can read it or use it or rip it apart if that's what they're going to do.”And then the jokes that you hear on Twitter about Reviewer 2 are often real. A lot of academic publishing is done in, like, usually, like, a double-blind process where you don't know who's reviewing you and the reviewers don't know who you are. I've been a reviewer, too, so I've been on that side of it. And—Corey: Which why you run into the common trope of people—Kelly: Yes.Corey: —suggesting, “Oh, you don't know what you're talking about. You should read this work by someone else,” who is in fact, the author they are reviewing.Kelly: Absolutely. That I think happens even when people do know who [laugh] who's stuff they're reviewing. Because it happens on Twitter all the time.Corey: Like, “Well, have you gotten to the next step beyond where you have a reviewer saying you should wind up looking at the work cited by”—and then they name-check themselves? Have we reached that level of petty yet, or has that still yet to be explored?Kelly: That is definitely something that happens in academic publishing. In academic circles, there can be these, like, frenemy relations among people that you know, especially if you are in a subfield that is very tiny. You tend to know everybody who is in that subfield, and there's, like, a lot of infighting. And it does not feel that far from tech, sometimes. [unintelligible 00:21:52] you could look at the whole tech industry, and you look at the little areas that people specialize in, and there are these communities around these specializations that—you can see some of them on Twitter.Clearly, not all of them exist in the Twitterverse, but in some ways, I think that translated over nicely of, like, the year-long publication and, like, double peer-review process is not something that I have to deal with as much now, and it's certainly something that I don't miss.Corey: You spent extensive amounts of time studying the past, and presumably dragons as well because, you know, it's impossible to separate medieval studies from dragons in my mind because basically, I am a giant child who lives through fantasy novels when it comes to exploring that kind of past. And do you wind up seeing any lessons we can take from the things you have studied to our current industry? That is sort of a strange question, but they say that history doesn't repeat, but it rhymes, and I'm curious to how far back that goes. Because most people are citing, you know, 1980s business studies. This goes centuries before that.Kelly: I think the thing that maybe stands out for me the most the way that you framed that is, when we look at the past and we think of something like the Middle Ages, we will often use that term and be like, “Okay, here's this thing that actually existed, right?” Here's, like, this 500 years of history, and this is where the Middle Ages began, and here's where it ended, and this is what it was like, and this is what the people were like. And we look at that as the some type of self-evident thing that exists when in reality, it's a concept that we created, that people who lived in later ages created this concept, but then it becomes something that has real currency and, really, weight in terms of, like, how we talk about the world.So, someone will say, you know, I like that film. It was very medieval. And it'll be a complete fantasy that has nothing to do with Middle Ages but has a whole bunch of these tropes and signals that we translate as the Middle Ages. I feel like the tech industry has a great capacity to do that as well, to kind of fold in along with things that we tend to think of as being very scientific and very logical but to take a concept and then just kind of begin to act as if it is an actual thing when it's something that people are trying to make a thing.Corey: Tech has a lot of challenges around the refusing to learn from history aspect in some areas, too. One of the most common examples I've heard of—or at least one that resonated the most with me—is hiring, where tech loves to say, “No one really knows how to hire effectively and well.” And that is provably not true. Ford and GM and Coca-Cola have run multi-decade studies on how to do this. They've gotten it down to a science.But very often, we look at that in tech and we're trying to invent everything from first principles. And I think, on some level, part of that comes out as, “Well, I wouldn't do so well in that type of interview scenario, therefore, it sucks.” And I feel like we're too willing in some cases to fail to heed the lessons that others have painstakingly learned, so we go ahead and experiment on our own and try and reinvent things that maybe we should not be innovating around if we're small, scrappy, and trying to one area of the industry. Maybe going back to how we hire human beings should not be one of those areas of innovation that you spend all your time on as a company.Kelly: I think for some companies, I think it depends on how you're hiring now. It's like, if your hiring practices are horrible, like, you probably do need to change them. But to your point, like, spending all of your energy on how are we hiring, can be counterproductive. Am I allowed to ask you a question?Corey: Oh, by all means. Mostly, the questions people ask me is, “What the hell is wrong with you?” But that's fine, I'm used to that one, too. Bonus points if you have a different one.Kelly: Like, your hiring processes at Duckbill Group. Because you've hired, you know, folks recently. How do you describe that? Like, what points of that you think… are working really well?Corey: The things that have worked out well for us have been being very transparent at the beginning around things like comp, what the job looks like, where it starts, where it stops, what we expect from people, what we do not expect from people, so there are no surprises down that path. We explain how many rounds of interviews there are, who they'll be meeting with at each stage. If we wind up declining to continue with a candidate in a particular cycle, anything past the initial blind resume submission, we will tell them; we don't ghost people. Full stop. Originally, we wanted to wind up responding to every applicant with a, “Sorry, we're not going to proceed,” if the resume was a colossal mismatch. For example, we're hiring for a cloud economist, and we have people with PhDs in economics, and… that's it. They have not read the job description.And then when you started doing that people would argue with us on a constant basis, and it just became a soul-sucking time sink. So, it's unfortunate, but that's the reality of it. But once we've had a conversation with you, doing that is the right answer. We try and move relatively quickly. We're honest with folks because we believe that an interview is very much a two-way street.And even if we declined to proceed—or you declined to proceed with us; either way—that you should still think well enough of us that you would recommend us to people for whom it might be a fit. And if we treat you like crap, you're never going to do that. Not to mention, I just don't like making people feel like crap as a general rule. So, that stuff that has all come out of hiring studies.So, has the idea of a standardized interview. We don't have an arbitrary question list that we wind up smacking people with from a variety of different angles. And if you drew the lucky questions, you'll do fine. We also don't set this up as pass-fail, we tend to presume that by the time you've been around the industry for as long as generally is expected for years of experience for the role, we're not going to suddenly unmask you as not knowing how computers work through our ridiculous series of trivia questions. We don't ask those.We also make the interview look a lot like what the job is, which is apparently a weird thing. It's in a lot of tech companies it's, “Go and solve whiteboard algorithms for us.” And then, “Great. Now, what's the job?” “It's going to be moving around some CSS nonsense.”It's like, first that is very different, and secondly, it's way harder to move CSS than to implement quicksort, for most folks. At least for me. So, it's… yeah, it just doesn't measure the right things. That's our approach. I'm not saying we cracked it by any means to be very clear here. This is just what we have found that sucks the least.Kelly: Yeah, I think the, ‘we're not going to do obscure whiteboarding exercises' is probably one of the key things. I think some people are still very attached those personal reasons. And I think the other thing I liked about what you said, is to make the interview as similar to the job as you can, which based on my own getting hired process at RedMonk and then to some levels of being involved in hiring our, kind of, new hires, I really like that. And I think that for me, the process will like, okay, you submit your application. There'd be—I think I'd to do a writing sample.But then it was like, you get on a call and you talk to Steve. And then you get on a call and you talk to James. And talking to people is my job. Like for the most part. I write things, but it's mostly talking to people, which you may not believe by the level of articulate, articulate-ness, I am stumbling my way through in this sentence.And then the transparency angle, I think it's something that most companies are not—may not be able to approach hiring in such a transparent way for whatever reason, but at least the motion towards being transparent about things like salaries, as opposed to that horrible salary negotiation part where that can be a nightmare for people, especially if there's this code of silence around what your coworkers or potential coworkers are making.Corey: We learned we were underpaying our clouds economists, so we wound up adjusting the rate advertised; at the same time we wound up improving the comp for existing team because, “Yeah, we're just going to make you apply again to be paid a fair wage for what you do,” no. Not how we play these games.Kelly: Yeah, which is, you know, one of the things that we're seeing in the industry now. Of course, the term ‘The Great Resignation' is out there. But with that comes, you know, people going to new places partly because that's how they can get, like, the salary increase or whatever it is they want for among other reasons.Corey: Some of the employees who have left have been our staunchest advocates, both for new applicants as well as new clients. There's something to be said for treating people as you mean to go on. My business partner, I've been clear that we aspire for this to be a 20, 25-year company, and you don't do that by burning bridges.Kelly: Yeah. Or just assuming that your folks are going to stay for three years and move on, which tends to be the kind of the lifespan of where people stay.Corey: Well, if they do, that's fine because it is expected. I don't want people to wind up feeling that they owe us anything. If it no longer makes sense for them to be here because they're not fulfilled or whatnot—this has happened to us before we've tried to change their mind, talked to them about what they wanted, and okay, we can't offer what you're after. How can we help you move on? That's the way it works.And like, the one thing we don't do in interviews—and this is something I very much picked up from the RedMonk culture as well—is we do a lot of writing here, so there's a writing sample of here's a list of theoretical findings for an AWS bill—if we're talking about a cloud economist role—great. Now, the next round is people are going to talk to you about that, and we're going to roleplay as if we were a client. But let's be clear, I won't tolerate abusive behavior from clients to our team, I will fire a client if it happens. So, we're not going to wind up bullying the applicant and smacking ‘em around on stuff—or smacking them around to be clear. That was an ‘em not a him, let's be clear.It's a problem of not wanting to even set the baseline expectation that you just have to sit there and take it when clients decide to go down unfortunate paths. And I believe it's happened all of maybe once in our five-and-a-half-year history. So, why would you ever sit around and basically have a bunch of people chip away at an applicant's self-confidence? By virtue of being in the room and having the conversation, they are clearly baseline competent at a number of things. Now, it's just a question of fit and whether their expression of skills is what we're doing right now as a company.At least that's how I see it. And I think that there is a lot of alignment here, not just between our two companies, but between the kinds of companies I look at and can actively recommend that people go and talk to.Kelly: Yeah. I think that emphasis on, it's not just about what a company is doing—like, what is their business, you know, how they're making money—but how they're treating people, like, on their way in and on the way out. I don't think you can oversell how important that is.Corey: Culture is what you wind up with instead of what you intend. And I think that's something that winds up getting lost a fair bit.Kelly: Yeah, culture is definitely not something you can just go buy, right? [laugh], where you can, like—this is what our culture will be.Corey: No, no. But if there is, “Culture-in-a-box. Like, you may not be able to buy it, but I would love to sell it to you,” seems to be the watchwords of a number of different companies out there. Kelly, I really want to thank you for taking the time to speak with me today. If people want to learn more, where can they find you?Kelly: They can find me on Twitter at @drkellyannfitz, that's D-R-K-E-L-L-Y-A-N-N-F-I-T-Z—I apologize for having such a long Twitter handle—or my RedMonk work and of my colleagues, you can find that at redmonk.com.Corey: And we will, of course, include links to that in the [show notes 00:33:14]. Thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it.Kelly: Thanks for having me.Corey: Kelly Fitzpatrick, senior industry analyst at RedMonk. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry comment telling me how terrible this was and that we should go listen to Reviewer 2's podcast instead.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

This eye-opening convo exposes the reality many foster care youth face and shows what following passion instead of a path can achieve.  If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co . And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe. In this episode you will learn about:The backstory to Barely Canadian Tackling a large problem and believing in the impactThe foster care system and “aging out”Learning as you go and learning with othersLeading with your heart for success Finding something that you want to be a part of Episode References/Links:IG @barelycanadianWebsite Barely CanadianIG @kellyslatteryIG @marisapolvinoIG @straightupimpactEchoes of Hope WebsiteKidsave WebsiteGuest Bio:MARISA POLVINOCo-CEO/Founder STRAIGHT UP FILMS and STRAIGHT UP IMPACTWith a career spanning over three decades, Marisa Polvino is a prolific producer and entrepreneur with a skill for identifying, packaging, and producing quality, star-driven entertainment across all genres and budget levels. Presently, Marisa is Partner and Co-CEO/Founder of STRAIGHT UP FILMS a fully integrated multi-media production company that has worked alongside top-name Hollywood talent, including Natalie Portman, Rosario Dawson, Jesse Eisenberg, Gina Rodriguez and Johnny Depp.Polvino identifies and shapes projects that align with the company's ethos. Presently, she oversees a top flight feature slate which includeHow to Set a Fire and Why, directed by award winning director/actress Lisa Edelstein, Dissonance, a YA love story set in the multiverse directed by Catherine Hardwicke, Joseph Merrick - The Elephant Man to be directed by Rupert Sanders and a film adaptation of Viktor Frankl's iconic memoir Man's Search for Meaning.Recognizing the profound effect cinema can have on culture Polvino co-founded Straight Up Impact. The companies mission is to create, produce and finance thought provoking content that appeals to human emotions, shifts perspectives and inspires positive social change.Polvino uses her entrepreneurial spirit and know-how and focuses on forging relationships with likeminded partners while also overseeing much of the company's business strategy, development, marketing and operational structure. In 2019, she created the “Power On” series for Google's computer science in media division which was a short-film series directed by leading actresses and designed to promote greater gender and racial diversity in STEAM fields. Polvino is currently producing the "Meaning in Madness" film series which centers around the systemic issues contributing to the mental health crisis facing young adults and teens today and the importance of meaning and purpose in their lives.Marisa is inspired by her two children and encourages them to follow their passions, pay attention to what matters most in life and to always work hard and be nice to people.KELLY SLATTERY Kelly Slattery, a native Canadian and songwriter by trade, made an interesting progression from writing music for such companies as Lionsgate, CBS and Disney, to writing screenplays and producing for film, to philanthropy and now, Barely Canadian, her social enterprise clothing line.Down for Life which premiered at the Toronto Film Festival, was Kelly's first feature, followed by subsequent Lionsgate projects like House of the Rising Sun and Cougars Inc, with Hijacked and Breaking Wind soon to follow, released by Anchor Bay.Kelly was a founding partner of Therapy Content, the production company for Dave Grohl's Sound City and Sonic Highways, and was fortunate to touch so many impactful products, although she eventually ventured off on her own after selling one of her TV comedies she co-created with Lee Aronsohn (co-creator of Two and a Half Men) in the room to ABC networks, along with signing a surf drama to Legendary Pictures. Whilst in development on her own projects, Kelly works as a consultant in the Film and TV space; developing, packaging and setting up projects at various studios.Kelly felt inspired to step into the nonprofit space years later, when she and her husband adopted their then 16 year old daughter from foster care. Starting at Venice Arts as the Director of Advancement, Kelly was quickly recruited by Film2Future as their Executive Director and went on to increase their operating budget by 83% in her first year while deciding to complete her family, Kelly and her husband foster to adopt her then 16 year old son.Barely Canadian was created to show their children that an idea can become a business and how to see an idea through to fruition. The moment friends and family got their hands on Barely Canadian, they quickly knew this business training idea had just become a company. As a Social Enterprise company that supports foster youth, it was important for the brand to feel as "home" and cozy as possible to align with their messaging about helping foster youth find their forever homes, hence Barely Canadian's mainstay of super soft clothing. Barely Canadian is proud to share that they source and hire all locally and donate 20% of our profits to foster youth organizations like Kidsave and Echoes of Hope.  OPC Flashcards:OPC Flashcards are on AmazonOPC Flashcards are on our site  If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.  ResourcesWatch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube!Lesley Logan websiteBe It Till You See It PodcastOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley LoganOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTubeProfitable Pilates Social MediaInstagramFacebookTik TokLinkedIn Episode Transcript:Lesley Logan 0:00  Hey Be It babe, what's up? Okay, I this is just I'm like glowing. I'm like can't stop smiling. I have two guests on today's interview. Two women who, gosh, their, their passion and purpose, like what they care so much about. It's like, freakin' like, it's contagious and like, like the only best way can get a contagion can be. Anyway (Lesley laughs) anyways, like it really is though like every time I get off a call with them I am sitting a little taller, flying a little higher, buzzing a little bit faster. And, and Brad actually joined today's interview as well. So we have a foursome. In fact, I met Kelly, because of Brad. And Kelly and Brad go way back in time. And Kelly is such a connector, which is why we're probably like, just to like kindred spirits there. But um, Kelly and Marisa have this amazing company Barely Canadian what you're gonna hear about. And I really can't wait for you to hear how they answer all their questions. Because I think that too often we're trying to figure out how do we organize all the thoughts? How do we organize all the dots before we start something. And that's not how things work. And even if you could connect all the dots, even if you had everything in place, and you're like, "Okay, I've got the plan. I've got the plan, here it is." Something is gonna come and rip that plan right out, water is gonna spill on that plan you're gonna miss, you're gonna lose a couple of those dots. And that's okay. And that's what makes that but it's also what makes you realize what's worth fighting for. And so these two women are super, super passionate about foster youth, and the organization's could save and echoes of hope. And they have a social enterprise, which is like they created a product that I can't wait for you to touch in your own lives. And it supports these organizations. And, you know, now more than ever, I think it's really important that we follow our passions and our purpose and it really does make you light up and make you want to show up when you're scared to death, to do something. So these two women are really doing something for a great cause. And they don't have all the answers to how they're going to do things but they are being it till they see it as they do it. And I'm really passionate about what they're doing. Brad and I are so freakin' stoked to be working with them and find different ways to collaborate with them and I can't wait for you to also witness that journey because we are still figuring it out. And that is what makes it super super fun and I can't wait to see how we can continue to support them in all our ways with our Profitable Pilates business and with OPC. I just the more more time and more excuse I can do to spend time with these women and what they're doing I will. So without further ado, here is our first two guests interview and with Brad joining in so it's special treat and I hope you enjoy it and I really can't wait to hear your takeaways. Please tag us, tag @barelycanadian. And let us know how this affected you? How this helped you? How this show do some light and some inspiration? All right, thank you so much. Here it is.Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guests will bring Bold, Executable, Intrinsic and Targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started.All right, Be It Till You See It listeners. We have a very exciting adventure for you right now. There has there's not only one guest, there are two guests and Brad's joining us. So we have (Brad: What? woot woot woot) we have an actual foursome happening (Lesley laughs) on this podcast. Um, you've got Kelly Slattery and Marisa Polvino, I hope I said their names correctly. And I am just really delighted to bring these two women to you. They are doing something so amazing. And there just proof that like taking an idea and just going for it no matter how many obstacles or what people might think about going into a somewhat crowded market. And they're doing it because they care so much about a special cause, I'm not let them tell you about but I just I had to have these women on because they're I think they're going to inspire you to Be It Till You See It and not let, not let anything get in your way. So Kelly and Marisa said thanks for being here. Can you each introduce yourselves?Kelly Slattery 4:37  Yeah, Marisa so you go ahead (Marisa: What?) and you'll talk... I always talk first. (Lesley laughs) You have to realize that I'm gonna be a gentle lady and say, "You talk first." (Lesley laughs)Marisa Polvino 4:46  Good morning Be It Till You See It people. Um, my name is Marisa Polvino. I am a film producer and content creator. I have a company called Straight Up Impact which creates thought provoking gain content around global issues that are most urgent. I also make films but I've been over the years moving more into the social impact space because my heart and my soul needs to be a little more fulfilled than what the customary film industry can do to one's heart and soul. (Lesley laughs) And Kelly and I've been friends for a long time and I and when she launched Barely Canadian. As a social enterprise company, I immediately wanted to jump on board with her and help build out one some of the most snugly, softest, comfy where ever but also one that provides money towards foster youth and supporting foster youth. And I happened to be making a short film about uncovering the systemic issues in the foster care system. And what we can do as a community to come together and help these foster youth live a fruitful, powerful, beautiful life after the foster care system after they age out. (Lesley: Oh) So that's about me and you can find me on Instagram at @marissapolvino and at @straightupimpact.Lesley Logan 6:07  Amazing. Okay, I want to dive into that but we have to we have to hear back from Kelly first. So Kelly, tell us how (Kelly: So many) got here.Kelly Slattery 6:15  Gosh such a tale. I'm a, I'm Canadian. My name is Kelly Slattery. And I came to America because I had a song in a Lionsgate Soundtrack, American Psycho 2. And I was an artist in Canada. So I was like, "I'm gonna move illegally to Canada, I mean to America," (Lesley laughs) to your country. And so I made the journey. It was interesting that later on in life, I actually wrote a TV show about that experience of being an illegal alien, it was about, it was about an illegal Canadian who lives in with illegal Mexican family and works in construction. We did sell it to ABC. I had the co-creator of Two and a Half Men and Big Bang, as you know, my showrunner. So I went from like, then I started producing films. I was a founder of a company that we produced for Dave Grohl. We did Sound City, we did Sonic Highways. But I left actually pretty much when I sold that show that I had written. And then we had another... Anyways, I've always been involved in entertainment, as a as a songwriter, as a singer, as a producer, and as a writer. And when we adopted our kids, initially, my daughter from foster care at the age of 16, I decided to convert my life to service and so I joined the nonprofit space, which was really interesting. And, and really challenging. And, and it's unique. Let me, let me just leave it there as calling it a very unique space, you know, but I learned a lot. And I learned that what I really want to do is something that makes a difference in the world. I always reference this film I had done for Lionsgate that I produced in Michigan, it was overnights, it was winter, it was exterior, it was awful, because (Lesley laughs) it was freezing and just like like physically traumatic, I would say just the cold even as a Canadian, which is why I'm called "Barely Canadian," because I'm always freezing. But anyways, I realize this ended up in the Walmart bin for 2.99 on sale. I gave two years of my life and my heart to this, I'm not doing this anymore. So trying to really find purpose in my life. When we adopted our son, we're actually in the process of adopting our son, we brought him into our family, we wanted to show them that an idea can become something and just with little steps and progression and just like due diligence of basic, you know actions every day or every week, you can build something. So that was the purpose of Barely Canadian was to show them how to be entrepreneurs, how to acquire basic business skills. And anyways, long and short people really liked the product and boom, it's it became a company. And we give 20% back to foster youth. And Marisa started coming to the pop ups I was doing and she just was like, "I love everything about this. Can I participate?" I'm like, "Hell yeah."Brad Crowell 8:59  Did you know, did you know each other prior?Kelly Slattery 9:01  Yeah, we had been engaged in some film projects together and and just became really fast friends. When Marisa moved out here from New York. SoMarisa Polvino 9:11  Yeah. I moved in New York, Kelly was the first one of the first people that I met outside... Well, wi... within industry, but outside of the industry friends that I had when I moved here and we fell in love immediately. It really was love at first sight.Lesley Logan 9:24  Well, (Kelly: Yeah) you all have that because I, Brad's known Kelly for a long time. But as soon as I got a call with you both I'm like, "Oh, I'm in love with these women. These women are amazing." (Marisa laughs) We are donating to their cause... (Lesley laughs)Brad Crowell 9:35  She was talking about you both for like a day and a half later. (Lesley: Yeah, yeah.) (Kelly: Oh my ...) It's really a great convo.Kelly Slattery 9:39  Well, we can find kindred spirits, right. Like I think we connect because we were connected already. (Lesley: Yeah) I think, you know, and we're taken by your gorgeous red hair. So that's why we're here. (Lesley laughs) Yeah, and then with Marisa the whites of her eyes were so white and I didn't want to shoot you know, but honestly the whites over eyes are so white. It's extraordinary. (Lesley: Oh my gosh) I remember that when I first met her.Lesley Logan 10:04  Oh, ladies, I love you... I so I want to go, Marisa, you said something. And maybe the two of you can talk about this, I kind of feel like working, doing a social enterprise, working in a nonprofit space trying to make an impact, you almost have to be like, act as if what you're doing is making the difference that you are hoping to make some day because it is so I don't know, I won't answer the question for you. But I feel like it's so hard to show up every day for a cause that has so much systemic problems, that if you don't act as if it's like, what you're doing is making the difference on a daily basis. It's kind of hard. So can you speak to that? Like, what is it take to? I think a lot of people want a part of social impact. And like, what does it take to do that? Like, how do you start?Marisa Polvino 10:50  You want me to start? (Lesley: Yeah) Well, I mean, I think everything is hard, right? Whatever, whatever you endeavor to do, is, it is like pushing that boulder up the hill, and finding certain projects, be it in the film side of the things, or in an apparel line. If you have a passion around what that product is bringing to the marketplace. And if you strongly believe that that messaging, that brand messaging around it, any kind of a product is one that the world needs, and that it can enact a change that is most vital, then it's easy to get behind it. Because everything, everything is difficult. And you know, somebody, many, many years ago, you know, one the persistence of vision, but two like, if you do what you love, the money, the success, whatever it is that you're hoping to achieve from it will follow. And to not just lead with your passion, lead with what you love to do. And what the messaging is and what what that content, that material, that peril, whatever that is brings to the world can add value to your soul and add value to your audience that you're presenting it to. And I think what's really easy is you know, like I'm wearing this sweatshirt. Yes, it is like shameless promotion. But it's also like really super comfortable. I was taking my dog for a walk earlier, I had the sound like, "Oh, I'm just... I was not intending to wear it." but like, "Oh my God, it's so comfortable. I don't want to take it off." (Lesley: Okay...) And ...Lesley Logan 12:22  I have to say yes because I have three Barely Canadian sweaters and I wore them five days in a row. Like I just, I went through a cycle ... (Lesley laughs) (Marisa: I can't take it off. I was waiting) Kelly Slattery 12:31  You know actually ... Lesley texting you need one for Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, (Lesley: Yeah) Saturday, Sunday, like the designated and I thought we should do that. Remember how they used to do underwear? (Lesley: Yeah)Marisa Polvino 12:41  It has the labeled underwear? I was just thinking. Lesley Logan 12:42  ... I'm so glad you picked up on that because I was like, "I hope she knows I'm talking about. I'm talking about when you were a kid, the underwear." (Lesley laughs)Kelly Slattery 12:51  Yeah. Yeah, (Brad: That's a...) But a kind of, I think it's a great idea - is a fun little throwback though, you know. (Marisa: I love it) Why not?Brad Crowell 12:57  I think somehow I missed that one.Lesley Logan 12:59  I don't think they had it for the boys. I think it was a (Lesley laughs) 80s girl thing.Kelly Slattery 13:03  ... wonder rose. We had wonder rose. (Marisa: We had wonder rose.)Brad Crowell 13:06  Wonder rose. No idea what that is.Kelly Slattery 13:08  It gotta be in northeast thing. (Marisa: ... underwear)Lesley Logan 13:11  So um, so you know, Kelly, you you started Barely Canadian. Before that you mentioned you wrote songs. And you know, you have this incredible story about like, a vision you had you you were in your grandmother's house? And can you actually talk about that? Because I do think, you know, Barely Canadian came from the all the little steps along the way. So can we go back in time a little bit.Kelly Slattery 13:35  It's so funny. You should say that too because I do think that Barely Canadian is everything I tend to do is like an ode to my country, to my country. (Lesley laughs) Like it's always like a salute, some kind of call back, some kind of like love letter, you know, to Canada. But but when I was, I had wanted, ultimately I, I'll go back even a little bit more just to disappoint you in lengthening the story. But so I... had moved to Ottawa. I had heard about an open mic across the street. A friend of mine said, "You should go." I said, "No, I'm not, I don't sing anymore." Long and short she made me go. The place asked me to start playing there the next day. I hadn't like sung in forever. My sister came down heard me playing at this residency. Bought me a guitar. And she said, "You need to actually learn how to play the guitar because you cannot depend on other people." With from that moment, nine months later, I recorded my very first album. I'd written all the songs. I recorded the album, and suddenly I found myself in HMV superstore. I was the, I was the only album blockbuster carried nationally. But I did all of that myself, right. So, I believe in, I think that was the empowering moment. You learn how to learn, play the guitar, you learn how to record yourself, you learn how to do all of this shit. Because if you think you can bank on anybody else, you cannot and it's really empowering is as disabling as that might feel. So for me, I had received this guitar my grandmother had passed. I'm sitting as I offer didn't say amongst a garden of clothes on the floor, just kind of distraught but watching the Grammys on this really shitty TV. And I thought, "I'm going to go there." Like, "I'm going to go there one day for sure." You know, and I wrote this song called My Life. This life is on its way, it's actually on my first album, and, and it was like this kind of up, happy, happy song. Cut to two years later, I'm invited to the Grammys by EMI, which is pretty incredible, you know, then cut to about 15 years later, and we had done a film with Dave Grohl, that the album was nominated for a Grammy. And so we went to the Grammys. And coincidentally, I brought Marisa as my date.Marisa Polvino 15:40   (Lesley: I love it.) That's right, I remember that ... (Brad: How about that.)Kelly Slattery 15:44  So you know, manifestation, I totally believe that it comes from a deep rooted place, and that what you focus on will most certainly reveal itself. But at the same time, if you if you don't focus on it for a moment, don't worry, like your path is there. The road is windy, the road is rough. I feel like there's a rhyme in there somewhere (Lesley: Yeah) that I should finish with ...Lesley Logan 16:06  Thank you for sharing that because I do, I do think a lot of people think it's so linear. I don't know why we think anything is linear, and nothing is ever done that way, like, (Lesley laughs) you know, but we anticipate that and so when we hit an obstacle, or we get distracted or something in life happens, and we have to take a pause from that. Thank you for sharing that, like, you know, don't worry, it's your the path is there. Because sometimes it picks up in a spot we didn't realize, you know, so. Okay. I want to talk about you both got involved, maybe for different reasons. And I would love to hear it in helping foster youth. And I want to hear like, what, what was that? Because I think some people we've had people on before talking about working with charities and thing like things like that. It's like, there's so many things you could be focusing on. Like Marisa said, "She wants to make an impact." There are so many problems in the world. How did you choose this? What what led you to that? And, you know, can you share more about that?Kelly Slattery 17:03  I've always had an obsession with this notion within America, which is family is everything and this obsession that there's a whole population of young kids, if family is everything, and I don't have it, where does that leave me? Right? (Lesley: Yeah) So I've always just kind of really focused on that. And when I first moved to America, I start tried to start a charity called Home Base. And it was you don't have to make a commitment to have children live in your home. But how about you just become a home base? How about at Christmas, on their birthday? They have somebody that they can connect with, somebody when they want to buy their first car? How do I go about doing that? So that was what home base was about. And in the process of trying to put this together? A friend of mine was on the board of Echoes of Hope, which is coincidentally one of the charities that we do support through our efforts at Barely Canadian, and said, "Why reinvent the wheel?A really good friend of mine has this nonprofit. Why don't you meet with her?" Her name is Stacy Robitaille, who I now call sissy, because she is like my sissy. And we first met, we just had this immediate connection as as you do, as we do, you know, with those people that are meant to be in our lives. So I started volunteering with foster youth. I'd always wanted to adopt a foster child. And coincidentally, I think what helped put that into place was meeting my husband on our very first date, learning that his mother was in foster, and learning that he also wanted to adopt a foster child. So that was a big deal for me, because as you get older, and you decide to focus on career, instead of personal life, you think, "Gosh, I've missed the opportunity to have a child. But I, I've always wanted to adopt and have a child, I hope I can meet a guy that is okay with me not being able to have my own child." Right? That's the big fear for women as you get older. And so to actually have that first date with him, and that was very important to him. And a goal of his as well in life was incredible. So cut to what I guess three years into our marriage, we started to begin the process of becoming a foster parent, which is a very long process, but a very worthy process. And like anything else, little steps, and suddenly you're there, you know, after a year's time, and of course we we are a foster adopt family, we have fostered a couple of other kids and adopted or adopting our son and we have adopted our daughter. So you know, the whole population of foster youth out there is important to us. We helped our kids and our help kids helped us, find our forever home because truly kids save created our family for us. But within barely ...Brad Crowell 19:35  Kidsave as the organization?Kelly Slattery 19:37  Yeah, Kidsave is how you can meet older kids to adopt. Because otherwise they're going to age out. And so yeah, it was just ...Brad Crowell 19:46  Can you talk a little bit more about this age out thing and just, you know, (Lesley: Yeah) what does that mean? I think, I think a lot of people ... like we (Kelly: I'm okay) I grew up hearing about adopting and then I sort of heard about fostering but didn't really I understand the concept of it. And I certainly never understood the ramifications of aging out.Kelly Slattery 20:05  Yeah. So if you don't find it forever family, by the time you hit 18 years old, even if you're in a foster home that you might have been domiciled for five years, but that family more often than not go, "Okay, you're 18. See you later." And they don't have ...Brad Crowell 20:20  Domiciled means actually living with family.Kelly Slattery 20:23  Living within that home, within that family. But by the time they're 18, it's like, "Okay, sorry, but we're not kind of covering this anymore." I think some people quite sadly, foster because it's an income for them, versus wanting to really help a child ... Brad Crowell 20:40  So (Lesley: Yeah) while, so while the kids with the family that they're getting the families getting a check?Kelly Slattery 20:45  The family is. And by the way, it's it's a minuscule check, it's nothing that's going to be substantial. But if you are super low income, (Brad: mm-hmm) and, you know, maybe even disabled, sometimes, like, you know, it's extra income for them. And, (Brad: mm-hmm) and I've met people that were super low income and not necessarily physically capable, who are incredible foster parents, you know, (Brad: sure, sure) so it's not to say that that's always the case.Brad Crowell 21:10  Yeah, yeah, I don't want to paint a bad light, but that there is (Kelly: Yeah, not at all) there there is, you know, some ...Lesley Logan 21:15  But the way the system (Brad: room) works, when they turn 18, no matter, no matter, like, you know, unless the person that is with them is able to afford to keep taking care of them and has the space, they're going to age out because they're no (Kelly: Yeah) longer being supported by the system.Brad Crowell 21:29  Yeah, I guess that's, that's fair. I mean, it may simply be a matter of finances as well, maybe they cannot continue to afford to support them.Kelly Slattery 21:37  Well, that's the there you go, you know, there's a plethora of reasons. And so it's when you age out that the state does give the child some money, depending on the state is how much money they're going to give them. They do have healthcare till their, you know, 25, they do have, you know, a train ticket or bus pass or whatever. But think about, what is it maybe $1,000 that they get a month, you're 18 years old? Think about, you know, yes, our generation also, we, if you had parents, we felt very capable of leaving the house at that time, we also knew we had this amazing safety net behind us. These kids do not, (Lesley: Yeah) not at all. So so yeah, so we, we want to help kids, we want to encourage people to be open to learning about Kidssafe, which is you go in the weekends, you meet these kids, you play board games with them, make vision boards, get to know who they are. And you might even feel inspired and think I think I could be that child's parent, you know, and that's what those meetings are about. Kidsave actually has a Emmy winning documentary on A & E that we were actually featured in, but the process of adopting. And it's really, really interesting, some kids get adopted, some kids don't. But part of what we want to do at Barely Canadian is if you don't find your forever home with the family, it doesn't mean you can't create your own forever home. And so we want to help with that. Hence, our fosterpreneur program that we're developing. Here's how you can do it on your own. You know, you don't have to bank on other people, right, kind of coming back to that if you don't have the family to bank on, bank on yourself, and still always bank on yourself. (Lesley: Yeah)Marisa Polvino 23:09  Always think that yourself. (Lesley: Yeah, Marisa ...) I think what's interesting, just to add on that is, you know, these kids in foster care, they have a staff of people, you know, they have their casa, they have their social worker, they have their therapists, (Kelly: attorney) their attorneys, they have a whole staff, (Brad: Wow!) but they don't have a person, (Kelly: Right) like who's that person that's in their life, that is without economic gain. Right? Who's that person that's not there to get the paycheck to be there for that kid? And where's the community around that child or those groups of children that can give them the love, the self worth, the community, the skill set, so that when they do age out, they have a shot out there. And they are not then repurposing the foster care system because a lot of these kids that don't have that come out with substance abuse problems, they're teen mothers, those kids go back into the foster care system. And so it's a vicious cycle. So getting these kids like through this fosterpreneural program, giving them the skill set, and the self value, the self worth to actually follow a dream, see it through and create a life for themselves outside of a system is a real huge goal. And we think what we can do as just individuals want a couple of people providing this, this life for kids outside of a system to give them something so much more than living off of a system that's not really there to support them.Kelly Slattery 24:39  And to kind of piggyback on that, just that we're just learning ecommerce. We're just figuring this out, and it's new to us. So, I think there's value to that when teaching a young person, you know, gosh, I'm you know, how much older than you and I'm just learning this you're young with a fresh mind. You grew up with technology. So also kind of like I think adults show that vulnerability like we're just figuring this out too. And I think (Marisa: Yeah) it's a great way for anyways has been a great with for my kids to learn, you know, as Marisa knows them well. Just seeing how they've found growth and knowledge through this process.Lesley Logan 25:11  I think you're 100% correct there, because so many times I work with people, and they're like, "Well, who am I to teach? So and so I'm just started." And it's like, you just have to be one step ahead. And, (Lesley laughs) you know, like, you don't, you know, like, um, this one woman I listened to on a podcast, I can't I can't remember which episode it was... But she said, "If you want to learn the piano, you're not gonna hire Billy Joel to teach you." Right? Like, you're gonna hire someone who knows the key, like the first few keys, like, that's who's gonna teach you and then you'll, you know, like, have an either they'll grow and you grow with them? Or do you find the next one, but like, I think, I think that vulnerability is so great for kids to see and also see that like, not everyone knows everything. And the people doing it are often making big guesses. And so it kind of allows them, maybe it ditches imposter syndrome, or allows them to see possibility, I think that's really cool.Kelly Slattery 26:03  Yeah, and it's funny, you should say that too, because it's also fun to do things together. So even though what will be a little bit step ahead, when you have somebody doing it with you, it feels safer, it feels like you have that team, you have that support. And that's something I'm really enjoying, with Marisa wanting to get involved in the company. You know, it's, it's, it's fun to bounce something off somebody, and it's fun to have that support. And also even, you know, adults tend to be, parents tend to be accountability coaches. So that's the other thing that you kind of offer when you're when you're teaching a young person. So but yeah, we're, we're, we're excited. We're building this out, and we're pumped, and we can't wait to talk to you guys more about it as well, knowing that you also do business coaching, you (Lesley: Yeah) know, in a really, really unique way.Brad Crowell 26:49  Before we get into the fosterpreneur concept, which I think is really exciting. And I can't wait to hear more about the the adoption or the excitement of the customers looking at Barely Canadian. Do you think that the social aspect of the company as a whole and the story behind it are what are lighting people up? Or is it really like the sweaters are just that amazing? Or is it a combination of both?Kelly Slattery 27:22  I, okay, first of all, when people feel our product, they literally go, "Oh my God, this is so soft, relevant, soft and cozy, and the feeling of home." Right? Because we're all about finding forever home. So it's all about feeling at home. But I definitely think that our kind of unique proposition as it were, is that we are in fact, an authentic story. I mean, we we started this to teach the kids, we really are a foster adopt family. You know, coincidentally, Marisa is doing this documentary on foster care and learning so much about it. That she's she's feeling fired up. So, I think when we, I do think when we share the story of how we came to be, why we came to be which, if I might make mention, we're Barely Canadian, because I am always freezing this I kind of intimated off the top. But additionally, my husband was like you are, we just need to make you some summer mittens, summer sweaters for California summer, because (Brad laughs) you just cannot handle it. And that was that's our first product are these super soft sweaters and super soft mittens that Lesley was wearing. And she gave us this great line. She was like, "I've been smitten." You know and (Lesley, Marisa and Kelly laughs) "we're starting to use that. I love it." (Brad: That's funny.) But but I think all of those really authentic pieces make a difference that that is what makes us stand out. So in answer to your question, I think it is definitely those pieces folded in and presented in the package of real and heart directed, which is would you agree, Marissa?Marisa Polvino 28:50  Absolutely. Absolutely. I think you know, in talking about a crowded marketplace, like you know, there's a brand that continues to come up every time I'm not going to give them any kind of nod on this because it's all about Barely Canadian. But you know, there's the brands that come up and there's the cops. Like, well, is it this? Or does it fit like that? Or, (Brad: sure) you know, how much of it is sustainable? And there's, you know, all the things that come up and it's like we can, we are our brand. The it's super soft. It's very comfy. We're giving back to foster youth. We love it. You're gonna love it and it's for everybody. There's not just one demographic that's being targeted. Everybody wants to feel soft and cozy and warm and feel like family. (Lesley: Yeah) What the brand is all about.Lesley Logan 29:35  Your sweatshirts are unisexy. Correct? (Marisa: It's unisexy.) (Brad: Yeah, they are.) (Lesley and Brad laughs)Marisa Polvino 29:40  And luckily, it's okay for boys to wear rainbows today. (Lesley: Yeah.)Brad Crowell 29:45  So when, when I, when I first saw Barely Canadian, it was through I think an email or maybe it was a post by Stasia and I just clicked it and open it and I saw you know that you were I think I don't know if she was too talking about you or somehow I knew you were involved Kelly. And, and I just opened up your Instagram and I was looking at it. And I was like, "This is so cool," you know, and I was really connected to the colors of it. And I, you know, I saved it and I showed it to Lesley. And it wasn't for like another month that I actually looked at your website. And when I went to the website, I didn't actually know any of the story. And, and I, I started reading a little more, and I and I started to understand like, Oh, wow, it's, it says, it's almost as if the, the profit of it is was like the last thing. It wasn't driven by this idea of like, "I'm gonna start a business so I could go make money." Like it wasn't, it doesn't come across that way. And that was really interesting to me, as an entrepreneur who I've started, like, a lot of businesses to do exactly that. And and this was, was really a surprise. And then the more I started understanding, I thought what a cool example for, you know, some kids plus, you know, what a cool project to have with them. Because it made me then begin to wonder like, "Who built the website? Was it you or was it the kids?" Or like, "Who wrote the copy? Was it them?" Like, "Who picks the products? Was it them?" Obviously, they're in like the photos and they're trying the things on. I thought, "Man, this is a really interesting journey." And I think it's really amazing, you know, and when we got the products, I was like, "Okay, (Kelly laughs) alright, this is cool."Kelly Slattery 31:27  I love that observation, because I hadn't framed it that way before. But that is exactly how it happened. So I just love that. You're kind of helping us even understand what you're right. We kind of went backwards, right? We started with "Let's do this for the kids. We want to do something for the kids. Oh, right now, this is a business. How cool is that?" You know, and so no, I love that. I really appreciate that insight. You guys are very good at perspective, (Lesley laughs) marketing and cool things like the smittens. (Lesley: Yeah)Marisa Polvino 31:59  I think also like do the, you know, this is a new thing, as you're talking just about being being an entrepreneur. Right? And trying a lot of different businesses. I think a part of one is like, figuring out what is our competitive edge? We don't know. So it is, it's about trial and error, and getting products and maybe, you know, the rainbow on the back of this sweatshirt isn't big enough. So yesterday we were together. And how can we like augment, like turns into lemonade, right? It's not perfect, but let's make it, let's add to it. That just enhances kind of what our messaging is. Let's take it and evolve it and learn as we go. And we're like, "Oh, next time. We'll, we'll do it this way." But by the but then maybe the zippers won't be right. So then (Lesley: Well, so ...) figure out how to make the zippers right. And the whole thing is a good entrepreneur and building the business. It's like, shits gonna go wrong (Brad: Yeah) and have to pick up and roll roll with it and figure out how to make it right.Brad Crowell 32:55  And now you got a hundred sweaters that have the thing wrong. You're like, "Oh my God, what do we do with all these? We put the money in, we got to get rid of them somehow." (Marisa laughs) (Marisa: Yeah) Like, yeah, it's a journey.Lesley Logan 33:03  Yeah, I mean, we've we've gotten to the... what we do create product. And it's always, it's an interesting process, I'll say, but we around here like to say, "Perfect is Boring." And like all of our (Marisa laughs) all of our merch that says that people look at it weird because it's on backwards. And I was at the TSA (Lesley laughs) and I was like showing the guy my ID and he's like, looking at me and like, you never want the TSA guy to look at you funny. Like, that's not a good time. (Marisa laughs) And I was like, well, he goes, "What is your hat say?" And I was like, "Oh, it's like, perfect is boring, dude you had me scared." (Lesley laughs) It's like, "Oh my God, I'm getting pulled into a room." (Marisa: Yeah) Um, but but we say that be I say that because like, the rainbow might not be perfect. But like, is there a perfect rainbow? No, like, all the rainbows are different like, and I do think you know, what I love what you're talking about. I hope everyone who's listening is hearing this, they didn't actually have all of the plans in place. They're like, we love helping this group of people. We want to create something that helps this group of people. And we like soft things. So this is what we're gonna start with. And so like ... (Marisa laughs) I think ...Kelly Slattery 34:06  It's exactly it. (Kelly laughs) (Lesley: I think ...) (Marisa: And I'm always cold.)Lesley Logan 34:09  Yeah. You know, I've been wearing my spins around the house. And (Lesley laughs) I'm like, I'm like, "This is perfect because it's a Vegas house." It's either it's too cold, it's too cold. You have AC on or now it's, you know, 40 degrees outside. So, but I think people get stuck on why have to have it all figured out. I have to make sure I have all the things in place. And like, more now more than ever, I think it's actually just about getting started and, and putting the thing out there and hearing what the questions are because then you hear people go, well, you know, like, what's your, what's this is like this and then you can like, however you argue back or whatever you say back helps you identify another answer.Kelly Slattery 34:48  Yeah, no, it's so true. It's so true. And then it's funny because when we do introduce Kidsave and Echoes Of Hope to other organizations or companies like your incredible company, both of your companies and your multiple companies. It people are inspired and they want to get behind it, you guys made an actual substantial donation. You know, in December, it was really incredible. And so for us, that was our big we'd been alive for all of three months, we kicked off end of September, I had some serious health issues in October. And, and then, and then by December, we were able to donate to both, you know, nonprofits (Brad: Wow!) and but but but that was just one piece of it. But then you guys did this massive surprise of like, "What Kidsave? What oh Echos?" And giving these donations anyways, that that that those are the those the fields, that's what it's all about for us, you know. So you're right, when you're leading with, with with the heart, when you're leading with the true messaging purpose, and derivative of why this all began, that's when you'll always win. It's almost like when you're writing. Like in television, you have that log line. That log line is so hard to do, right? It's such a hard succinct thing to really pack everything into a sentence or two ...Brad Crowell 36:03  Yeah. As was I say for Tracy out there. (Lesley: I know ...) (Lesley laughs) I'm stealing, I'm stealing (Lesley: It's from Smartlace) from Smartlace here. (Lesley: for Tracy in Milwaukee) Explain to us what a logline is.Kelly Slattery 36:13  All right, let's talk to Tracy .... (Marisa: Let's talk Tracy Milwaukee. What do you want ...) Yeah. What's up Milwaukee? (Brad and Lesley laughs) As you're, as you're going along, it's always go back. What is that logline, you can't completely depart from that. And that's similar to if it's all about the heart, it's all about doing something that makes you feel like you're doing something right in this world. Stick with that, you know, always make certain you stay at the core of it. That's what is the goal because ...Brad Crowell 36:36  I think we would call our our listeners probably be more familiar with an elevator pitch where it's like, you know, (Marisa: Right) how do you explain it in one or two sentences?Lesley Logan 36:46  (Kelly: Right, right. Yeah and it's true.) I want it. So Marisa, you're working on a documentary? Is that how you got attracted to this particular cause? Or like, because I think, you know, you saw this and you're like, "I'm jumping on board with that." And I, and I want to point that out, because I do think sometimes people maybe don't know how to get become part of something. And so I want to kind of go into that, like, how did you go, "Okay, Kelly, I'm in." (Lesley laughs)Marisa Polvino 37:15  Um, well, one in terms of foster care in, in general, I've been watching Kelly and have gone to some of the fundraisers. And I've also been with her through this process of her adopting both of these kids. And it's really incredible, what, what it takes to become a foster parent. How, how much and how difficult if they don't make it easy. Right? And these kids are also coming from a place of trauma. And, and, in taking that in and taking that on is something really incredible. I think like I honor Kelly for creating such a beautiful warm home for both of these kids. And I think she's created that kind of a home for everybody that's in her life, right? She's has just the widest network and the most incredible group of friends and family and loved ones and created family that that surrounds her. So I've always been inspired by her. I mean Kelly changed my life and I know you (Marisa: Yeah, me too) know that. But you literally took me down a different path because of a text message from like, after like a year later, after we had met. Changed, literally, that's like a very defining moment ...I kind believe that. (Kelly: I love connecting. I love it.) Yeah, she's, she's really a wonderful, beautiful, powerful spirit. And we've been for years wanting to work on something. And it has always been in the film side and the content side. (Lesley: Yeah) Let's find a project to do together. And we have some projects that we've been dancing around for a really long time. And so just this the opportunity for Barely Canadian, you know, just to be with her and to help her I mean, started off with like, "Hey, let me just help you. I want to come help sell... sell a sweatshirts. And I love these, I want to promote it." And, and I'd also been thinking like, "What, what do I want to do ... in two years, three years in the making?" And of like, "What do I want to do in addition to being a filmmaker? I want to do something. I don't know what it is. I have all these skill sets. What do I want to do with it?" And when this popped up, it just was something that felt right. It felt something like I'm just just soulfully, naturally, authentically felt like something I wanted to become a part of. And we had already had this friendship and a shared vision and love of have the similar similar things, similar people. So that was an easy thing. In terms of making a film about foster care is. It's an overall series about the systemic issues that are contributing to the mental health crisis of our (Lesley: Yeah) youth today. And so we've already done two films. One of them was, "Have you, have the education system?" And the other one was "The pharmaceutical drug industry and the overprescribing of drugs for our youth today." And then, because of what Kelly was doing in foster care, we were like the foster care system is such a broken system. And it's a view of like, "What are we doing to our kids? (Lesley: Yeah) And how can we tell a story through the voice of a child," because all of these films are through the voice of kids, to let them share their experience and give them a voice, empower them to take control of their destinies. And so I think it all like I think everything was very symbiotic because that's the right word. (Brad: Right) (Lesley: Yeah) Like, is it all synergistic in terms of how it all happened. Lesley Logan 40:47  But I also just want to point out, in case someone, like, missed it. She'd been looking for something for a couple of years, she was like, "What (Marisa: Yeah) else am I doing?" And I think we get stuck on I don't know the answer, I need, like, need to like, and you I'm sure you weren't sitting around twiddling your thumbs, you were working, you're making these films and you but you had this question in your mind, "What am I going to do? What am I going to do?" And so then, when this came up, your body was like, "This, this is, this sounds really good. This feels really good." Oh, so it happens to be really soft. So, I think I thank you for sharing that.Marisa Polvino 41:17  So it was also... Can I just add like, it was also like it this is for everybody, cuz it gets like it can, you can start pulling your hair out. Like, "I want to do. I don't know what I want to do. I have to do something." But it was also like, "I want it to be a product, like a physical product that I can get behind and sell like a product that people are going to want, a product that people are going to need, a product that they don't even know that they need that they want." And when this happened, I was like, "This is so weird." Like, this is actually the product and I never viewed it as, "Oh, this is the product." It just felt like, "Oh, my God, light bulb. Hello." This is what you've been putting out to the universe, (Lesley: Yeah) energetically.Lesley Logan 41:57  Yeah. That's I mean, and that's just it goes back to what Kelly's saying earlier. It's like, the path will find you. Like it's okay, it's like you're not focused on it 24/7. It's going to find you. I have got chills. Ladies, you guys are... Your lines are friggin' amazing in powerhouses. And I, I have I cannot believe that Barely Canadian is only from September, I feel like I'm like this been around like, I'm in. (Lesley laughs)Kelly Slattery 42:18  I know, it's it's ... (Marisa: ... summer line) Yeah, we, um, we launched in September, by October, Nov... No by November, we had like a winter line. (Brad: Yeah) Let's get into the next season real quick. (Brad laughs) And it's been, it just kind of happened really quickly. It was so organic. It's really everybody's reaction to the product is really and it's not just the product. It's the, I daresay community, because we don't have that yet. We're so new, you guys have built this gorgeous community, you know, and you guys are so authentic with what you're doing. And I can't say we have a community yet, but we have, there's just an energy when people get engaged with us. (Lesley: Yeah) (Brad: Sure) And what we want to do, they want to also you know, participate and and so it's not, when you buy one of our products that that helps you know, a kid find a forever home. And that's a wonderful thing. But it's kind of, I don't know, where I don't know how or why. And this isn't speaking very much to what you're trying to kind of touch on because, you know, you're trying to help people understand how to get to where they need to go. Right? And so, so just kind of letting it be and whatever it's going to become, I feel what it's going to become, I just can't name it yet, right. But I do hope it's the kind of community that you guys have. It's just so flush and full of heart and authenticity.Lesley Logan 43:35  I think that you actually just explained what I'm trying to help people do. So you're literally being it till you see it meaning, you're just being you're you're the love, you're the drive, you're the, you're the feeling you want people to have around you, you're already doing that and tell we see where this is going. So actually think you're exactly what I want people to hear, what exactly what I want people to see because sometimes it's not as easy as acting like a CEO, you know, sometimes as easy as acting like, you know, you are the business owner. Sometimes it is a little bit more complex, a little convoluted, but you have the passion, the story and the love. And you're you're literally just being all of those things to see what comes next. What comes next for Barely Canadian? What comes next for all these charities and these kids? And so I thank you for (Lesley laughs) for sharing that because like I said what I hear I don't know, Brad, what do you think?Brad Crowell 44:25  Yeah. Well, and also I think we haven't touched on the fosterprenuer bit. So I think we're gonna have to have you back on to dive into that a little more, you know, down the road. But you know, I think well, I'm going to ask Lesley's question here. We ask every guest this, if you were to give our listeners one or two BE IT action items. BE IT being bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted action items that you have been doing or that you have tips for them when you were starting this pro... you know, Barely Canadian. What would you offer them?Kelly Slattery 45:10  For me, be bold, is just be you, you know. You can't, you can't please everybody all the time, let alone every time, let alone any time. So do the best you can and be you. I always like to reference that, as I always put the great American poets Nikki - "You do you," you know. You do you, I mean, the most kind of perhaps ill equipped person to give life advice at that time when this girl (Lesley laughs) was on Jersey shores. But nonetheless, that is the most succinct way I could think of, you know, to how to live your life. But I would also say, you know, my dad always said, "The harder you work, the luckier you get." And that's what you tend to find, you know, in Canada, where we like to align ourselves with our great hero - Terry Fox, and you just kind of put your head down and work. And when you look up, you're often surprised what you built, you know, but just focus on what you're doing, put your head down and do the work. And every time you look up, you're going to be shocked, like, "Wow, and now we're here." This whole working thing, this diligence, this, just focusing on the task at hand really works.Lesley Logan 46:17  That's so true.Marisa Polvino 46:19  Love that. I love your snooky. Something that I think about often is this quote, "Fear Eats the Soul." And so I think a lot about that, because it can be really scary to start something new, and put yourself out there. And so I always put fear in the back in my back pocket. So that would be one thing I would say is, "Don't let fear guide you." It's a false narrative. Show up. That's the first step. Just show up. Show up for yourself and follow your gut. And stay true to your vision. Like persistence of vision is there and allow yourself to fall down, make mistakes, learn from, learn from the mistakes and just keep showing up every single day.Brad Crowell 47:05  I already feels like that's been happening with Barely Canadian in such a good way because of the way it's taking shape. It's really exciting.Lesley Logan 47:15  Yeah, and that's so beautiful. Just I mean like that, just like put your, put your stuff at the market, go to the thing, like get in the room like (Lesley laughs) (Kelly: Yeah) sometimes the universe ...Marisa Polvino 47:25  It's the people that show up, that win. Truly most people don't show up.Kelly Slattery 47:30  Yeah, just like buying a scratch and win. (Lesley and Kelly laughs)Lesley Logan 47:36  Oh my gosh. Ladies, okay, real quick. Where can people find you? On Instagram, it's @barelycanadian?Kelly Slattery 47:43  So at @barelycanadian on Instagram. I'm at @kellyslattery but really I just care about at @barelycanadian and then barelycanadian.com is our website. And if you happen to spell it with a bear instead of a bear so b e a r versus b a r e l y. Don't worry, you'll still land with us. We still will catch you. We got you. (Lesley laughs)Lesley Logan 48:04  Way to, way to grab the URLs. And Marisa, you're @marisapalvino at Instagram, on Instagram?Marisa Polvino 48:10  Yeah, in Instagram and at @straightupimpact.Lesley Logan 48:14  Okay, I'm with Brad we're having you back. We'll have to do the fosterpreneur and and just also here like what's going on because, um, y'all we are very much going to be involved with these women and what they're doing... I'm really, there's it's so many different passions and impacts I've wanted to make in this planet that you know, not always teaching Pilates can help. (Lesley laughs) So being involved in different ways and collaborating is huge and, and we'll share those things as they come up. But um, definitely take the, check out the links in the show notes. And check out Barely Canadian and grab yourself some smittens and a summer sweater and, and y'all until next time, Be It Till You See It.Marisa Polvino 48:51  Be It Till You See It. (Brad: Bye now.)Kelly Slattery 48:53  Be It Till You See It. Thank you.Marisa Polvino 48:55  Thank you so much. Bye.Lesley Logan 48:58  That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review. And follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcasts. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the @be_it_pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others Be It Till You See It. Have an awesome day!'Be It Till You See It' is a production of 'As The Crows Fly Media'.Brad Crowell 49:31  It's written produced, filmed and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell. Our Associate Producer is Amanda Frattarelli.Lesley Logan 49:42  Kevin Perez at Disenyo handles all of our audio editing.Brad Crowell 49:46  Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music. And our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.Lesley Logan 49:55  Special thanks to our designer Jaira Mandal for creating all of our visuals (which you can't see because this is a podcast) and our digital producer, Jay Pedroso for editing all video each week so you can.Brad Crowell 50:07  And to Angelina Herico for transcribing each of our episodes so you can find them on our website. And, finally to Meridith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time.Transcribed by https://otter.aiSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Dr. Kelly Bender is a California licensed Naturopathic Medical Doctor and she joined Lesley today to talk about moving to a new city, starting a business when you didn't know anyone, and listening with curiosity. Then they move on to being your own health advocate, taking stock of how you're feeling and how to take care of yourself.If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co .And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.In this episode you will learn about:Moving to a new cityStarting a businessBeing your own health advocateKnowing when things are offGoing to meetups in a new cityListening and being curiousPut things in your physical Environment that make you feel that happiness or desired stateFind the people in the room who are not like youShare your story with other people - celebrate where you've come from, your vulnerability allows others to see what's possibleTake stock of how you're feeling and see where there could be potential improvementA big part of health is your mental/emotional healthGet your body physically feeling like you want it to feelEpisode References/Links:Dr Kelly Bender's IGThe Four Tendencies by Gretchen RubinSapiens by Yuval Noah HarariBelieve It by Jamie Kern LimaPure Vitality Rejuvenation Center's websiteGuest Bio:Dr. Bender is a California licensed Naturopathic Medical Doctor. As a graduate of Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine, Dr. Bender is trained as an expert in natural medicine. After graduating summa cum laude with a Bachelor of Science in Pharmacology & Toxicology from the University at Buffalo and top of her class in medical school, she has continued her training in cutting edge therapies. Ketamine assisted therapy, regenerative medicine, bio-identical hormone replacement therapy and peptide therapy have been important additions to her practice to truly help individuals heal. She is passionate about helping individuals optimize their health so they can live their lives to the fullest. Dr. Bender believes it is important to understand the entire person in order to facilitate healing and offers each patient an individualized treatment plan to enhance their vitality. Dr. Bender enjoys teaching others, whether it be her patients or students at various medical schools. While she misses the fall weather back home in New York, she is happy to make Los Angeles her home.If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.ResourcesWatch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube!Lesley Logan websiteBe It Till You See It PodcastOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley LoganOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTubeProfitable PilatesSocial MediaInstagramFacebookTik TokLinkedIn Episode Transcript:Lesley Logan  Hey! Hey you, welcome back to the Be It Till You See It. I am in love with this podcast and I'm in love with all of your takeaways and just the DMs we're getting and the questions you're sending us. It is incredibly, it's an incredible honor but also just so much fun for me and for Brad to bring news to you every single week. Today's guest is Dr. Kelly Bender. Not only is she a dear friend of mine, but she is a woman who definitely saved my life, my health. And I wanted to bring her in because she is a wealth of knowledge. And she has an incredible Be It Till You See It story. So for those of you who have moved to a new place, or you feel like you're new in something, you don't know what you're doing, I definitely want you to listen to the parts where she talks about being new in a city and starting a business without any information because they don't teach you that in school, and, and more. And then for those of you who are like not thinking about starting a business, there's still so much information in here on being an advocate for yourself and knowing when things are off. And so I really just think you're gonna find so many different gemstones no matter where you are in your life right now. So please do me a huge favor when this is all over, check out Dr. Kelly Bender on Instagram. And if you have any takeaways screenshot this and share it and tag us both so that we can see that it really does help us get this show out and and you know, we get to have more fun with you and with all the listeners. So thank you and right after this message is Dr. Kelly Bender.Lesley Logan  Welcome to the Be It Till You See It podcast, where we talk about taking messy action, knowing that perfect is boring. I'm Lesley Logan, Pilates instructor and fitness business coach. I've trained thousands of people around the world and the number one thing I see stopping people from achieving anything is self doubt. My friends, action brings clarity and it's the antidote to fear. Each week, my guest will bring Bold, Executable, Intrinsic and Targeted steps that you can use to put yourself first and Be It Till You See It. It's a practice, not a perfect. Let's get started.Lesley Logan  Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Kelly Bender, and everyone who is listening. I'm so excited for you to meet this woman. I mean, you're gonna meet her in your ears. But if you're watching this on YouTube, you get to see your face. Y'all, this woman came into my life at a time when I needed her the most. And then she ended up coming on a retreat, so we got to know each other really well. But I happen to be in search of B12 shots. And this is where there's divine appointments and serendipity. I had heard about a space at about a mile from where I lived from an old client and then literally the old client they were going out for dinner and we ran into Dr. Bender and it became this wonderful friendship and I have her here because not only does she have a great Be It story, but she also has some great tips on like, reasons why maybe we just don't feel like being it all the time. So, Dr. Kelly Bender can you share with everyone, who you are, what you're up to all the things?Kelly Bender  Yeah, thank you so much for having me, Lesley, I'm really excited to be here. I love our conversations and I'm really excited that we get to record our conversations and other people get to hear what we talk about. (Lesley: Oh, I know ...) I think that it's so much fun.Lesley Logan  This is like a secret way for me to know more information. I'm just ... (Lesley laughs)Kelly Bender  Exactly. I'm so yeah, I am a California licensed naturopathic medical doctor, which means we try to look at the whole person and find out really what's going on with people. Instead of just giving medications or other things, we really do a lot of detective work to see if we can figure out why people are not feeling their best. My practice is here in Brentwood, Los Angeles, California, we do a lot of different types of therapies and modalities to try to pe... to get people to be really healthy and happy and vital. We try to have your body heal itself. And so I'm really passionate about helping people understand their bodies. And really, you know, not just do something because somebody told you to do it. I really want people to understand what's going on so they can make their own decision of, "Yeah, I want to take this thing today. I want to eat this way today because I know how it's going to make me feel."Lesley Logan  I love that that's probably another reason why we're friends. It's like the same way that I teach Pilates is I want people to be autonomous and I want them to know why they're doing an exercise and I want them to feel confident in choosing not to do that exercise to do something else and so I think that's really cool. There are very few people in the medical industry like you who are trying to help people be more educated and make a decision and almost it's almost like you're trying to teach them to be an advocate for themselves in their process.Kelly Bender  100%. Being an advocate and and you know your body much better than I do. Right? I've got the schooling, I've got the education. And so you know, hopefully I can be a guide. But at the end of the day, you're not going to call me every day and say, I mean, you could, you could definitely call me every day and say, "Hey, I'm feeling a little tired today. I'm feeling a little sore today, what do I do?" but that's not empowering for anybody. And that gets really, really expensive if you're going to do that. (Lesley laughs) So I would... I mean, "Hey, if you want to do that, I'm, I'm here. I'm happy to." But but I really want to empower people to understand and be intuitive with their body so that they can have an arsenal of all the different things and decide when they need to use them.Lesley Logan  Yeah, well, and also, I mean, expensive too and almost overwhelming. Like, you might, you might think this is really nice. And you want to check in with your, with your doctor every day. But then like, you might have that rebellion. But it's like if you know, the four tendencies, it's an obliger-rebellion, when like, you're just like, "I'm over this." And so I think, (Kelly: Right) so much better to have the tools to do your own journaling, doing your own tracking, and then do check ins and tweaks when you feel like something is off. And so while it I wasn't off, and then I want to get into how you got started. How, like, what is the best way to give people the confidence or just feel okay with sometimes you might think something's off and then we are we tend to talk ourselves out of it, we tend to like excuse that off feeling like, "Oh, I just ate something bad" or "Oh, I just had a bad night's sleep" or, you know what I mean? Like, when is it that something is off? And when is it that we are? I don't know if I if you understand the question, I'm saying, but do you I mean?Kelly Bender  I do. Yeah, as humans. Okay, so there's this old adage of boiling a frog, right? So how do you boil a frog, if you put a frog in hot water, it will jump out. But if you put it in cold water, and you slowly turn up the temperature, it will just become complacent and say, "Oh, this is warm, this is warm, this is warm" to the point where it's boiling. And as humans, we we do that, right? We are adaptable, that's one of the strengths that we have as a species is we are really highly adaptable. And so oftentimes, you know, it's a slow, slippery slope to "Oh, I had, you know, I had some gas one day, but you know, it's just because I ate a lot of vegetables." And then, you know, you have diarrhea for a few days that "Oh, you know, it's because I was stressed," and then you've constipation for a few days. And it's, "Oh, it's because I was traveling." And then before you know it, it's six months down the down the line, and you haven't had a normal bowel movement for six months. Right? And so I think there is this fine line, and maybe it's not so fine. But there's definitely a line between being overly conscientious and overly anxious about our health where, yeah, you know, we all have days where we're a little ga... more gassy, we all have days, where, you know, things are a little bit more sluggish, or we're a little more tired. So just keeping track of it. And more than anything, if you can, if you can kind of get in touch with your body. I think a lot of times we're just show disconnected, we're still in our brain, right? And so you're thinking, you know, we go on WebMD, and you're thinking and it's all up here, right? It's like, "Oh, man," you know, fatigue and, and, you know, constipation and acid reflux, and you go and you're thinking about all the things that could be wrong. (Lesley: Right) More so I would say, sit with yourself, as opposed to looking externally, sit with yourself and say, "Okay, is this a feeling that I've had in the past? Did that feeling go away on it's own?" You know, "Is it just a temporary one day thing?" You know, "Does this feel abnormal to me," right? And so if it's a day or two, and it goes away, probably, you know, nothing to worry about. But if it's a day or two every week, then I would say, you know, track it a little bit. And if they're consistent, then something to pay attention to, but more than that, like really sit with your body and say, "Does this make sense? Why this is happening?" Oh, every time I eat dairy, I have friends who are lactose intolerant, and they still eat dairy all the time. And then ...Lesley Logan  ... remember to do that and I'm like, "You can't eat it. That's like that's why you feel the way you feel." (Lesley laughs)Kelly Bender  Right? Right. That's the way you feel the way that you feel. And so you know, and then they get confused because they're like, "Oh, well, I eat dairy, dairy is in everything" and then their stomach is just never good, good. (Lesley: Yeah.) And then and then something else is happening like they have dysbiosis or they have a food sensitivity. You know, stress can also impact your digestion, and so they get confused between, "Oh, I never feel good because I'm always eating dairy" versus something else is going on. So it kind of masks that symptom. So, in general, if you're electing to do something that makes you feel not as well, I would take a break from that every once in a while to let that go away and see really how you feel. Same thing with like drinking alcohol.Lesley Logan  That's a great, that's actually really something anyone can do. You're not it's not like we're saying, do an elimination diet, it's like, the thing that makes you not feel so good, stop doing it and to see like what your baseline is, and, and you know, and what, and then you can be really in tune. And I just think, what I love that the common thread there is like, how are you feeling and what's normal for you. And it makes sense, because there really is no one size fits all what I love so much about interviewing different, amazing people like yourself is every time I ask them at the end, we'll and we'll ask you later, like, what are your steps to be in it, no one is repeating the same thing. So like, we're all so different. (Kelly: Yeah) And that means our health is going to be very unique. And so what feels normal to you and is going to be different, I want to take a step back to you starting this practice, because it's not easy to start any business. And if you you don't have like this, like bank account that's just rolling you through. It's very scary, and not only to do sort a new practice. But it's also very unique practice, because it's not something that you see everywhere. But you also started in a new city. And so I think a lot of people listening might be afraid to start something new and that they have the excuse. Well, "I'm new here. I don't know anyone," like I just really want them to hear your story. So, how did you get your practice going?Kelly Bender  Yeah, so um, I really believe in, you were talking about like, you know, divine (Lesley: appointments) interventions or divine appointments. And, you know, I'm I'm a planner, I am a I am a builder, I'm a designer. And throughout medical school for four years, I was designing what I thought was going to be my life, my practice, what I was going to do, and I will tell you right now, none of it happened that way. (Lesley laughs) 0%, 0%, and I'm so glad, I am so glad that it happened the way that it happened. And it turned out even better than I planned. Right? So, medical school - shocker - you don't learn how to run a business (Lesley: No) in medical school. Right?Lesley Logan  No. So, why teachers don't either fitness instructors or either lawyers, either. I'm like, "I don't even know (Kelly: No) what people are going to school for." Because they don't actually why they can't be, it's why a lot of people aren't successful in those things. And it's, or they have imposter syndrome, because how you don't know what you don't know.Kelly Bender  You don't know what you don't know. And and you know, enough in medical school to to be scared. Because you know, when medicine there's a lot of liability, right? There's a lot of rules of what you can and cannot do. So so go back to 2013, I originally wanted to work for a nonprofit. I started a nonprofit when I was in medical school. We did free care for people like low income people in the States. And we also have clinics in Mexico, Haiti and Thailand. And so (Lesley: Cool) I that's what I, yeah, so that's what I thought I was going to do my whole four years of medical school, that was the plan. And then I realized in my fourth year how much debt I was going to have and how much I needed to pay every month to be able to pay that off. And working for a nonprofit was not a good option at that point. So, I quickly pivoted and decided to move to LA, because why not? My brother lived here and I had come out to visit. I'm originally from New York. And so I knew that I wanted to try something different. I knew I didn't want to go back to the cold weather. And I figured I'll give it a try. If I don't like it, I can always move again. So, so I moved out to California, I moved out to Los Angeles without really knowing anyone, anyone and decided to start a business. So I found a little office space to rent and I read a lot of books and I read a lot of blogs and I watched a lot of YouTube videos on how to set up a corporation and I was sitting in this little bedroom that I rented out in a house with this this older lady and I remember like sitting on my bed, filling out the fictitious business paperwork and feeling anxious. Am I doing this right? I don't have money to pay for a lawyer. You know, (Lesely: Oh) if I do this wrong, what's going to happen?Lesley Logan  I um completely understand, and I love the visual of you sitting in a little office just like watching YouTube videos on how to do this. Because that's, I mean, like, a lot of people might be like, "I want to get started," honestly, that's what we that's what everyone gets started and everyone is like, "Am I doing this right? I don't know, I can't afford a lawyer to look this over." Sure, hope so I remember I got a letter in the mail from LA. They're like, "We can see you're doing business here. So here's what you owe us in taxes." I was like, "Oh, well, thanks for letting me know. Not a problem. Here's a check." I was like, "Thank God, they did ..." So they don't arrest you, but they will (Kelly: Yeah) send you a bill. (Lesley laughs)Kelly Bender  Right. And usually, there's some late fees associated (Lesley: Yeah) (Lesley laughs) with, you know, much cheaper than (Lesley: My lawyer, yeah) otherwise, that could turn out much cheaper than a lawyer, much cheaper than a lawyer. Yeah, it's like, "Okay, great. I'll..." And you know, most places where people open businesses, they want you to be successful, right? You're, you're part of the economy, you're driving, you know, you're driving the economy. So they want to get their money because their business too, but usually, they'll they'll work with you. And they'll let you know, like, "Hey, this is how you were supposed to do it. You're delinquent, you have to pay us some extra money. But like, here's how to do it right." And so, yeah, when I first got to LA, man, what it is like, what a different world from the East Coast where I grew up from Arizona, which is where I did my medical school. So I came out here and knew almost no one, set up my business, didn't know what I was doing from a business standpoint, you know, had to figure it out pretty much on my own. I didn't have business mentors, I didn't grow up around people who owned their own businesses. It was not part of my, my culture, it was not part of anything I'd ever seen done before. And so honestly, one of the things that I did that was the most helpful was I started going to meetups, five or six nights a week, when I first moved to LA, this was, you know, pre COVID, obviously. So ...Lesley Logan  Yeah, something went possible, but I (Kelly: Yeah) so I love this part of you, getting out there, getting to know, getting to get your business started was like getting just going to places to, just finding places you could immerse yourself, (Kelly: Yeah) which is super scary. So, what did you tell yourself before you walk into these rooms?Kelly Bender  It's so interesting. So, I specifically went to meetups that were not medical related. So most of the people I knew who were doctors, they went to all these medical ones to network with other medical professionals, there was like, first of all, I want to friends who are not doctors. Second of all, I like you're not going to become my patients, your doctors. And third, I actually went to a lot of one of them that were like business oriented, because I was like, "I need friends or people who are in business to help me learn how to do this." And so, you know, I would I would psych myself up. And I this is not a thing that I love to do. So I really, you know, there was a lot of anxiety before everyone, but I was like, you know, what's the worst that can happen? That's what I would tell myself, "What's the worst that can happen? You're going to go, you're going to meet some interesting people. And if you don't like them, you never have to see them again." So that's the nice thing about meetups is everybody is there to network. So different than going to a bar or something like that, like, everyone knows that's the deal. So you go up and you tell your story, and you hand out business cards. Um ...Lesley Logan  How did you (Kelly: and it was ...) introduce yourself? Because I feel like this is like where I could ultimate Be It moment could be because you didn't have like a thriving practice at this point yet you were filling (Kelly: I know) out forms. So, how, what was the introduction that you gave?Kelly Bender  Yeah, so most of the time, like I said, I was the only doctor there. I remember really specifically going to these tech startups, because I love technology. And I was like, "Oh, these people don't know anything about health." They're, you know, a bunch of guys most of the time. And I know this is a stereotype but it's true. A bunch of men in a room eating like cheetos and drinking soda, right? (Lesley: Yeah) And so, and now they're the people who have money, right? (Lesley: Yeah) Who can afford kind of like alternative care. And so I would go to these a lot of these types of meetings. And listen, that is that is the most important thing. Most people go into these situations, and they're just focused on getting other people to know what they do. Right? So everyone is talking past each other because everyone's primary goal is to download my information to you. Right? And so I just went in and I listened and I was curious. Those I think are the two big things for me was was listening and being curious. And then I would say, "Oh, that's you know, that's really interesting. You do X, Y or Z. Have you ever considered this thing over here?" And I would just ask really interesting questions about them or their work. And then people got interested in me. Right? Then they would say, "Oh my gosh, that's such a great question. No one's ever asked me that question before. What do you do? Are you a CEO? Are you a venture capitalist? What do you do?" And I would just sit there and say, "I'm a doctor." Mind blown! (Lesley laughs) Every single one of them, they were like, "Whoa, okay, like, tell me about what you ..." and then and then they were really engaged. Right? ... that that was the way ...Lesley Logan  This is so cool. I hope you're all hearing this. This is if you have anxiety in rooms, if you are wearing an introvert flag, if you are wearing the shy flag, like here, she didn't, she actually went and listened, which is some, it's actually, it's not actually easier to do, but it's definitely less anxiety producing and then you got curious. And then and then because of that, they're super intrigued by you, which is like the best thing and building relationships. And so ... (Kelly: Totally) how so how many meetups did you go to? Like, how many? Or do you still go to them.Kelly Bender  So, I stopped probably after about a year and a half, or maybe about a year, I was going to no lie five or six a week, and a lot of them are the same. So, I would go you know, every month or so and kind of keep up with some of the same people. And they you know, would become patient or they would become friends. A lot of the friends that I have here in LA are from these, these meetups, you know from eight, nine years ago. And so it helped me build a build a network, it helped me build friends. And, and it helped me build my business acumen. I consult so part of, you know, I have my medical practice, but I also do a lot of consulting with businesses from the medical side. So, I will be the medical expert, if somebody wants to start any sort of medical type business. And I also consult with doctors and clinics, in how to set up their business and set up their operations. So, I have become kind of this bridge.Lesley Logan  Yeah, you also (Kelly: between the two) have, it's like the ultimate Be It, like you were acting as if, like so you're doing all the things to start a business, then you (Kelly: Yeah) change your environment many times because you move but also like you change people you surround yourself with. And then you and now you are literally being the consultant, being the guy, being the thing to everyone else and in your industry, and then also people who want to have a part with your industry, that is so cool. It's like no stopping it. So, okay, um, this, this is really interesting. Um, I want to go to the, the the be... changing your environment up, because I do think that that is where a lot of people get stuck, you know, especially if you're like, "Well, Lesley and Kelly, I can't move. I can't move to LA, (Kelly: right) how do I do this?" So for the person who's like, not able to physically move to change their environment, what are some tips you have for them to change the surroundings that they're in to be able to not just be a bridge, but to be it and to get get connected with more people?Kelly Bender  Yeah, so I mean, there's, there's different pieces to your environment, I personally find space, like the environment that I'm in, in my home, at my office to be really important and impactful for me. So even if you're just kind of moving things around, or getting lovely plants ... from my plant ...Lesley Logan  If you're watching us on YouTube, you will have to see all the plants, I mean, her plant game is strong.Kelly Bender  It makes me so happy, honestly. So, you know, one of the big things that I tell people you know, the Be It Till You See It kind of thing is, "Putting things in your physical environment that make you feel happy, or that make you feel that desired state." So one of the things is I I've got, you know, I've got my plants, I've got my crystals, you know, I've got all of the things that kind of just make me feel like, I'm that person. And one of the biggest things that changed. I had some money mindset stuff. You know, being a doctor, being a care provider, I just like giving care for free, right? Like, I just wish I could give care for free. It makes me feel so good. But that's not a sustainable business model. (Lesley laughs) And so, so what I did when I wanted to change how I felt about money was I took two $100 bills and put it I have this little kind of seashell type thing that I put them in with with my amethyst from when I was little on top of it. And it's right over here where I do my work and I just have it there and it's like, you know, money's around, money is available if I need if I need a hundred bucks, I could grab it from there. Right? I don't, because I'm just putting it there. But physically putting the things in your space to remind you of what you want to grow and what you want to focus on, I think is really important. (Lesley: Oh, I love this.) Yeah. And then absolutely, like, changing, not changing, but adding people to your, to your environment, to your to your friends group, find the people who are not like you. That's, that's what I would say, a lot of times, we tend to, you know, be friends with the people that are very similar to us, because they reinforce our, our beliefs, and you know, it makes us feel good about ourselves. But I would, I would encourage you to find people who are very different from you, because they're going to have life experiences, and they're going to have skill sets that are complimentary to yours that you might, that you might need, or you might benefit from. I started working with very, very, very, very high net worth individuals, and completely changed how I saw life, how I, how I saw my own, like how I run my household, just seeing how people run their household, how they run staff, helped me understand what was possible.Lesley Logan  I couldn't agree more. Having moved, I've definitely, environment change, but also like building new relationships out here. And it's a little tricky in a COVID world. So really, our life in Las Vegas started April 2021. We're like, "Okay, we're going out, we're excited (Kelly: yeah) about this, we're going to meet people," but I've been really conscious of meeting people that I normally wouldn't meet, that I nor.... that I normally wouldn't have a reason to connect with. And that is does take effort, but I think it is so important. I also having been from a family that was not entrepreneurial like me, not that they weren't, there just wasn't anyone own their own business, you know, in my immediate family. For me to learn from to see that was possible, having clients in LA who do have that high net worth, you hear what they stress about, which was not what I was stressing about, you hear it like, "And there's some good and bad things, they don't do everything, you don't need to assume all of their behaviors," but you do see possibilities and I and that I'm grateful for the time I had in LA, because literally you learn that you can just create money because or that money is all around because people just find it. And they the people who are creating businesses, there aren't like going, "Oh, you pull my savings." They're like, "Oh, no, I'm raising money for this." And you're like, "You can raise like, people just give money for things?" Like ... (Lesley laughs)Kelly Bender  Right? What? (Lesley: Yeah) Yeah, I really do think, you know, one of the most important things, I think for the Be It Till You See It is sharing your story with other people. And so, you know, even if you don't think that you are where you want to be, right, sharing your story, either where you are, where you've been, is, is helpful for you to celebrate how much you've changed, or where you've come from, which I think is really important. And that vulnerability with other people, just like we're doing now it allows them to see what's possible. And then they share with you, you know, maybe I've had patients who are extremely successful in business, like, you know, financially really successful. And they, you know, they see that as a success, but they want to be more successful in let's say, their spiritual life or their mental emotional life. And, and so when I hear their stories of how they've worked through things from a business standpoint, I'm like, "Oh, that's how you do that." And then they hear my stories of how I worked through, you know, emotional things, or you know, family things or trauma that's happened. And they're like, "Oh, that's how you do that." (Lesley: Yeah) So it's, it's sharing with people who have all different experiences, I think is for me, the most important.Lesley Logan  Well, and you know, we the reason that the human humans as a species have evolved and survived is because of stories. And like if you read the book Sapiens, it's like this whole the ability to storyteller is how we survive tigers and holes. And then also we can share things. We can keep talking for hours, but I have to ask this one question before (Kelly: Yeah) we take a break. I want to because I'm sure people are going, "Okay." But we got this doctor on the show. Is there anything that we can be doing, supplements anything I know that you're we can't just prescribe things so we're not prescribing anything (Kelly: Yeah) but are there are there tips for people that they might want to pay attention to, that might be holding them back health wise from be it till they see it.Kelly Bender  Yeah, that's a that's a great question. So again, I would say, you know, take stock of how you're feeling and see, you know, where you think there could be some potential improvements, I would say a big, a big part of health is your mental emotional health. And especially with being it until you see it, you want to make sure you're in a really good mind state, right? They talk about like, these flow states, which flow state is basically like alpha brainwaves, it's actually how your brain is functioning. And so you know, doing meditation or journaling or breath work or something to physically get your body into that flow state. You know, get your body physically feeling like you want it to feel, even if you're like, "You know, I feel really good today," or getting up in the morning and doing a dance party and that, you know, I have so much energy, even on the days you don't have energy, right? It's okay, if you don't have energy, you don't have to push yourself or you know, pretend that you're some way but, but if you're like, "Okay, I'm gonna get up and I'm gonna, I'm gonna move my body and I'm gonna get into the mind state of, you know, I'm energized, I'm, I'm feeling strong," that will help your brain get into the, get into that loop or that pattern of, "I'm feeling good, I have energy," you know ...Lesley Logan  I love that it just kind of goes back to like just getting to know yourself and then also like, an even on the good days practicing it and not just the days that we need it like, that's, (Kelly: Yeah) that's the trick. (Lesley laughs)Kelly Bender  Yeah, and also so like smiling, even if you don't want to smile, right? Just our body remembers these cues. And so just smiling can actually change your your brain chemistry. So if you're not feeling really good, just go look in the mirror, and smile and work on gratitude and let that sink in. And that will actually change your biochemistry that will actually change your neuro chemistry. So, you know ...Lesley Logan  You know what I love about all this, none of it is taking anything like in, it is all things so you have the power of doing all of them are free things. All of them are ways to be in the state that you really are trying to be in all the time and so thank you for that. That's I love being surprised but also you know, it made me think of this one thing. Jamie Kern Lima's book "Believe It," she gave a tip of like giving people what you need. So, if you're needing like (Kelly: Yeah) someone to see you, make sure you look at people in the eye and smile at them and see them (Kelly: Yeah) so they're gonna do ... they're gonna see how and they're gonna smile right back, you know, or if you're (Kelly: Absolutely) if you're needing people to love you, give people love and you just this amazing reciprocity thing. So all right, Dr. Kelly Bender, where can people find you? How can they follow you? Become your friend, stalk you a little bit? Where do you hang out?Kelly Bender  Um, Kreation Cafe in Los Angeles. (Lesley laughs) I'm most most of the time you can probably find me there.Lesley Logan  Do you get the pumpkin bread?Kelly Bender  No, it has eggs in it.Lesley Logan  Oh, I don't think so, well, I get it's vegan. Check it out ...Kelly Bender  Well, I have to look at it. Okay, I have to get the vegan one ...Lesley Logan  Check it out because I get a vegan one because I can't do the eggs either. I get a vegan (Kelly: I know) and they have a paleo bread as well that (Kelly: Yeah) is egg free. So anyways,Kelly Bender  They they have a vegan gluten free brownie. (Lesley: Oh) It's the best thing ...Lesley Logan  With CBD in it by the way.Kelly Bender  They do have on the CBD. I don't get the one with CBD. (Lesley: Okay) But it is it is the best thing ever ... So ...Lesley Logan  It is like ... that they did ... it's really hard to do vegan gluten free brownies. (Kelly: I know) And they did a great job because it doesn't just crumble all over you. It's moist. It's gooey. (Kelly: Yeah) Anyways, they did not sponsor this podcast, but every time (Kelly laughs) I go to LA, I do go to Kreation and stock up and when my husband sees it in my purse, he just laughs (Lesley laughs)Kelly Bender  Yeah. Nailed it. So yes, most most days you'll probably find me there for some one of the one of my meals. But my clinic is in Brentwood, Los Angeles. It's called Pure Vitality Rejuvenation Center. The website is www.purevitalitycenter.com. So you can go and check us out on the website. We also have Instagram, which have been doing some more Instagram lives. I think I'm going to try and do an Instagram live every day for a week. (Lesley: Oh so fun.) Even if it's just like two or three minutes because Instagram keeps updating and every time I go to save the live to my role. Something else is different that I can't figure out how to do it. So I think I just need to you talk about you know (Lesley: Be It Till You See It ... I love it) Be It Till You See It ... I'm gonna be this Instagram, awesome person, and I'm gonna practice and practice and practice. And then hopefully by the end of the week, I'll actually be a professional at it.Lesley Logan  I love it. Yeah, I just have to say this, I have three Instagram handles, right and which is annoying. And here's what I hate the most is when one of them updates, but the other two don't. So currently on the @be_it_pod Instagram, where how I share my story is very different than how I did on the other two. And I'm like, "Alright, y'all, this is ..." (Kelly: no) I'm a I'm a native ada... a tech adapter, right? I am attack native, elder millennial (Kelly: yeah) right here, you (Kelly: yeah) can't give it to me, change them all at the same time. (Lesley laughs)Kelly Bender  Right, or just don't change them. I honestly just be two and a half minutes yesterday when I started my Instagram live, to figure out how to do it. So anyway, um, you can follow me on Instagram at @purelyvital p u r e l y v i t a l. I think I'm going to try to do that the next week or so. We'll see technically, you know, all the all the technical parts ...Lesley Logan  Well, we'll have all of these links in the show notes. Kreation, you'll just have to look up I don't want to actually stalking her. So okay, so I asked every guest this and you've given some great tips. So if you want to just recap them, that's totally fine. But I think it's really awesome to be inspired. But I actually think people need to take messy action because that's where clarity comes from. That's where anxiety is overridden. So bold, executable, intrinsic, targeted steps that people can do to be it till you see it, what are your favorite things to do?Kelly Bender  So the first thing is know yourself, honestly, I think for me, that's the most important piece. Also, do the things that you want to do. Don't wait till you have the money. Don't wait until you have the time. Because you'll never have what you want of both things. So you and I have our boozy spa days. And it's like, we just put it on the calendar. And we go and we do it. So do do the things that you want to do. And also, I would say be curious, be curious about yourself. Be curious about other people. Really, you know, try to look at the world through the you know, through the child's eyes, or you know, through the novice lens, because that's going to help you grow into what you want to be, but also help you see when you've become that.Lesley Logan  Oh, those are juicy. I love them. I'm ... excited. This is my favorite part of the podcast because I'm like, "Oh, I'm gonna try that one. That one's new for me." Dr. Kelly Bender, thank you for being here on the show. Everyone, thank you (Kelly: Thank you) so much for listening. Do us a humungous favor, screenshot this podcast right now. Tag pure, @purelyvital, and @be_it_pod and put your takeaway on here so that we can see what your favorite part of this show was. And do us a favor and make sure you share this with your friends that is how this podcasts gets out. That's how all podcasts get out. So if you love a podcast, you could share it every week. Don't worry, I will still love it. It will still feel fresh and new to me. So thank you so much and until next time, Be It Till You See It.Lesley Logan  That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review. And, follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcasts. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the @be_it_pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others BE IT TILL YOU SEE IT. Have an awesome day!Lesley Logan  'Be It Till You See It' is a production of 'As The Crows Fly Media'.Brad Crowell  It's written, produced, filmed and recorded by your host, Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell.Lesley Logan  Kevin and Bel at Disenyo handle all of our audio editing and some social media content.Brad Crowell  Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music. And our branding by designer and artist, Gianfranco Cioffi.Lesley Logan  Special thanks to our designer Jaira Mandal for creating all of our visuals (which you can't see because this is a podcast) and our digital producer, Jay Pedroso for editing all the video each week so you can.Brad Crowell  And the Meridith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

 Max: Hello and welcome back to the Recruitment Hackers Podcast. I'm your host Max Armbruster and today on the show, somebody south of where I am, all the way down in Perthestow in Sydney, Miss Mrs. Kelly Van Nelson, Managing Director at Adecco Australia. Welcome to the show, Kelly.Kelly: Thank you, Max. It's great to be here today.Max: Pleasure to have you, and Kelly how do you end up as a Managing Director? I'm not gonna ask you to introduce Adecco because if you don't know Adecco, you're on the wrong podcast. because you should as number one brand in the world and well I'm sure it's got a different strength in different markets. It's pretty well-known worldwide. I couldn't think of a geography where it isn't. So, I assume that the business in Australia is also quite wide-ranging from tech to you know more office temporary staff and everything in between?Kelly: Yes, it is. We have the Adecco group and all of the brands represented in Australia which Adecco is workforce solutions, but we do have all-tech solutions and we do have talent solutions which is our placements and upscaling and rescaling too. So yeah, the full complements of the Adecco group is here on the ground, in and around Australia.Max: And Australia is in the news right now for all kinds of reasons, mainly because it's impossible to come in and out of it. Has that been we'll talk later about how that's affected your team, but from the business standpoint, is it been good or bad for business?Kelly: I would say it's been good for business, challenging absolutely, and we have to very rapidly pivot our operations and elements of the business to leverage the opportunities, but nevertheless, it's actually been good for our business for a number of reasons. We can dive into them if you like but I would say definitely positive impacts.Max: That's great to hear. I've recently had on the show someone who's taught me about having to repurpose. Half of her team to do something other than recruitment in 2020 and I hope I wasn't too traumatic for the team down under. And sounds like things are good so we'll find out what well what you can share with us there. But before we go there if you could share with me and the audience were how you ended up where you are today because you don't sound Australian so I think it must have been a long road. Kelly: It's been a long road. Twenty-seven years in the recruitment and workforce solutions based on the technology in the street. Started out in Northern England as you can probably guess from the accent. But yeah, I moved around the world in the industry, lived in South Africa, Edinburgh, London, and many years in Perth and Western Australia in my early years of my career with the Adecco Group in the technology brand which is Modis. And two and a half years I go I moved to Sydney with the family and moved into the Managing Director role of Adecco. So yeah, been around a little while and seen a hugely changing industry that we work in which is actually exciting, no two days are ever the same. Max: Yeah, it attracts a good bunch of people who end up in recruitment. People who are empathetic and hardworking generally, but empathetic and hardworking may not be enough anymore. There's there are new skills required to survive in this dog fight. Can you elaborate on how you know those new changes have affected the composition of your team and you know what are people that have done well and those who have lagged behind?Kelly: Yeah, we definitely see it man, not just in our own business but with our own customer base for different sets of core skill sets. Resilience is the one we're always seeking and with that comes the ability to adapt and change and embrace change. And the resilience is not just from COVID but from the changing sort of industry that we work in and the rapid scaling of technology and the different demands of you know the global economy. So for me, resilience is the number one thing I look for when I when we are interviewing for new personnel to build a high-performing team. And when we have people in the business, the most successful recruiters and broader team members that I see who really have a good long career and good long tenure and great success would be the ones who have this aptitude for lifelong learning. Always looking to gain new skills, always looking at what's next not what's happening today, and being very very open to self-investment in their own skillset and you know personal capability in achieving personal best. So yeah, I would say having a huge aptitude for upscaling, rescaling, and lifelong learning is really critical right now. Max: And now to be able to assess resiliency in the course of a couple of interviews is sounds like mission impossible. I can't even think of a psychometric or competent assessment task that would get you there either. Intuition, career history, what are some of the good data points you can base those decisions on?Kelly: Yeah, definitely I probe a lot and run scenarios even with people that we're interviewing who don't come from the industry or don't bring a huge amount of experience, or they might be a graduate friend or for instance in early career. I tend to put some scenarios on the table around what has been a challenging circumstance that you've faced and how have you overcome an obstacle. And you know just different types of people like to self-manage and yeah just really probe around those examples and you can tend to you know to find what you're looking for in individuals who have risen above obstacles and removed roadblocks. So yeah, it's definitely something I've spent a lot of time on during an interview process probing on that one. Max: Yeah.Kelly: Yeah. I think I think the recruitment industry as a whole now is asking for this whole broad range of soft skills. You know if you look before what would be the core skills of recruiters, it would be probing on ability to meet targets and ability to sell, and you know customer skills on the telephone and all of the things that go with sort of a sale skill set or you know maybe a call center skill set. Whereas now it's really about these inner skills that you know can really set you apart when the going gets tough. Max: Yeah, it's about this lifelong learning, reinventing yourself a few times, and I think I wouldn't do very well in an interview. I've had my first of of of you know conflicts and difficulties, but you know the human brain I just kind of erased it all. I don't even, once it's once the when the challenge has been overcome I kinda tend to forget about it and pretend it never happened. That's maybe why I wouldn't do such a..I wouldn't be such a good recruiter. Maybe that's unique skill set for an entrepreneur. Kelly: You'd be surprised. We could make a recruiter of you yet I think. We could make good recruiters of most people. YeahMax: Thank you. That is a fine compliment. Great so so one change that recruiters and white-collar workers all over the world have had to take in is this hybrid work environment. Kelly: Yeah.Max: And and so I don't know how many people you managed in Australia and how big the team is but I'm sure you've had to some turnover with people who are either fed up with working from home or fed up with going to the office, one way or the other. It's very hard to please everybody. How is how do you know work around these challenges?Kelly: I think for us it's just again about being adaptable. We were very lucky in that when the first wave of the pandemic really took foothold in Australia, we were very well-positioned to rapidly move to work from home. We ran an overnight test done pretty much within 24 hours. We had moved our entire operations to virtual working and that was right across the country, which was quite extraordinary and that really enabled us to push on and do what was needed to be done with redeploying workers and helping the workforce to cope with the pandemic. It has been many workers coming out of employment or being stood down or having their hours cut back and needing to be handheld into new industries or new positions. And many candidates also needed assistance to use virtual tools, virtual interview tools, virtual application tools, onboarding tools. But our own recruiters inside Adecco were very very able to adapt literally within 24 hours. We had already been pretty good at allowing and supporting flexible working policies and embracing work from anywhere and mobility and things took quite a long time, which really bode us well in you know in what happened with the first wave of COVID. And as we progressed through some of the last you know more than a year now of the pandemic, what we've found is we've got this interesting trend where about half the workforce wants to be in the office half of the time. So, you've got this hybrid scenario emerging and the next normal continues to be this hybrid environment. Workers want to have a balance of time in the office where they can interact, they can upscale, they can learn from one another, they can you know find this team camaraderie face-to-face and have human interaction and social interaction in the workplace. Versus being highly productive if not more productive from home and you know being able to balance their home lives and you know to being able to balance the safety and the environment which we have to work in if we're going through different lockdowns. So, we see this globally, on average, globally 53 percent of workers want to spend at least you know some of their time working remotely. So, it's not really a trend anymore, it's actually a new norm this hybrid working. So, so organizations are having to adapt to this in different ways depending on the industry and the type of industry you run. But for Adecco, we're very much in a comfortable place now with being able to operate work from office work from home in varying levels of that and giving people flexibility. Max: That's that's to be expected progressive employers such as Adecco would be who'd have already spent a lot of time doing hybrid workplace. Maybe you have some customers who are less more traditional let's say, more resistant. The customer is king to a certain degree so have you kind of helped customers attract you know to change their recruitment marketing to attract workers that are more inclined towards the office? And then of course we know a lot there's plenty of offers for jobs that are fully remote. I think that the labor market is plentiful. But are you working with some employers that are you know that are still committed to having a purely office environment?Kelly: We definitely see that. We see some businesses still struggling to find their feet a little bit with what their business landscape looks like. And we also have a very large proportion of our workforce, especially in the contingent labor space that are essential work and doesn't necessarily always allow work from home for various reasons. If there is you know customer at face-to-face engagement or services needed, what we tend to do is typically treat each business with you know good listening and good understanding of what their business objectives are. And also have a good conversation around the skills shortages that we do face, and you know with no migration you know more than 70000 people only migrate into the country and unfilled a lot of the positions that we you know that we look for. And that workforce is not readily available anymore. Unemployment's at an all-time low and the talent pool list to a certain extent shrinking. So, accessibility to talent and the best talent in the market is key for any business, whether it's about small business right up to you know a large global Fortune 500. Giving your organization the chance to hire the best talent wherever they're located and bring them into your business, it really allows for diversity of your workforce into you know to really attract routine right now at a time that that's critical. If you don't, you would be, to a certain extent, left behind. So so sometimes it's a conversation around you know talent shortages and getting the best talent. You know there's a financial link to that and financial benefit to that. There are productivity gains that are proven to be really good if you can get this. And yeah, workers and our employees are commanding it right now.Max: Yeah, and in this market, I'm surprised anybody can hit their targets. What are some of their creative workarounds for you know industries where you have low unemployment, rising wages, more constraints about who can come in and who cannot. Can you illustrate some creative thinking that's going on or maybe you've reconverted people from one industry to the next in order to keep the wheels spinning? Kelly: Yeah, we definitely had exactly this scenario. So, if I can go back a year, we had whole industries that were downsizing and substantially so, for example, aviation and hospitality and retail to a certain extent, and you know sports and recreation. But entire industry is pretty much you know grounded and in parallel with that, you had many other industries experiencing extraordinary surges. So, for example, online trading of services, whether it be online buying and retail, consumer services at on the phone, or online. You know for example call centers, contact centers. You know the demand for skills second to none during the COVID coupled with healthcare changes in certain industries, you have this two-stream scenario of industries downsizing their workforce substantially and industries commanding extraordinary numbers of new jobs in different industries. So, we did a lot of work very very quickly. I'm talking in a matter of you know one to two weeks. Putting workers through very rapid upscaling and rescaling practical courses that were going to give them the tips and the techniques and the basic skills to be able to transition from one industry into another with some level of seamless you know ease. And that was enormously successful. We transitioned and redeployed a couple of thousand workers in a fortnight in the early stages of COVID by upscaling and rescaling any short-job programs and ways of working. So that was highly successful and a lot of them has remained. So, we are, still today is an organization in Adecco investing in upscaling and rescaling through our different brands, really working with candidates to best identify how we can use candidate pools smartly and sensibly to fill with skills gap even if their skills are not the perfect fit because, in the large part, they're not a perfect fit. The skills of the future and the jobs of the future are different and they're changing every day quite rapidly so. So, with that means skills of jobseekers also have to change and evolve. And our job as a recruitment firm needs to embrace that and help bridge those gaps and provide the transition from you know from one job into another or from one industry into another. That will remain and we have a big part to play as a recruitment industry to enable job seekers to find comfort and not be afraid of the future. Max: Yeah. Your inspiring story about how Adecco responded quickly to these changes makes me think. You know. You're a little bit like a financial trading company where some hedge funds really benefit from market instability. You know they're like when things are moving quickly, that's when they make money. You can think that I mean of course you it be very I don't wanna lay this in nick of Adecco as a profiteer of change you know traumatic situation but rather as an agent of change where the market will continue to change, most people will continue to look for jobs. Good year or bad year you know traumatic year. These changes needs you know need guidance. And so, you could imagine that Adecco would have I don't know I haven't looked at your I don't know if your results are publicly posted but it sounds like Adecco may have had a great year when you you put it that way. Kelly: We definitely did have a good year I think and ultimately, we have shareholders and we're publicly listed, and you have a business to run. But the reality of it is if we have last year have faced the wave of the first lockdown and sort of sat back to certain extent and accepted where we are you know good proportion of our workforce was being stood down or have you know we're having their hours reduced to absolutely no fault of our clients. You know we supply a huge number of small and medium enterprises, not just large organizations and many sectors that were impacted, we would have been in serious trouble, we would have in serious financial trouble, we would have had our own workforce impacted with not enough work to do, and it's not in our nature to sort of accept that. So, we were very very quick to look up the strategy and to pivot and to understand where the market was going short term and where the market was gonna go long term and that was incredibly difficult during COVID. But our workforce inside Adecco absolutely adapted and we moved people around internally from you know one team to another team internally. And people responded very well to that and got on with the necessary task of trying to help as many people as possible remain in work or come out of work in one job and get into the job work in another and that helped us to remain sustainable as a business, helped our workforce and our candidates, and ultimately helped our clients, even the ones that were downsizing. That helped them because they knew their workers were going to another home. And it was easier on everyone to do that, so it was actually really quite rewarding despite the pressure and the challenges of the economy and the market and you know the health crisis that everybody was facing. So yeah, we're a pretty resilient bunch in the large part in Adecco, but yeah there's business travis for sure that go without. We didn't our own workforce to have to be impacted but we didn't want our candidates and casual workforce to be impacted either and I think we did a really good job of leading the charge there. Max: Well, well done. Well done to the team and I hope of course that not every year has full of changes as last one and that we could have some more quiet time for people can settle into their industry and I'm getting some sense of stability. I have two more questions for you. One of them is about productivity and tech tools that are used by the team or that you use personally, that you would recommend. What are some productivity tips you can offer to our listeners?Kelly: I love this question and I am a big I mean I come from a technology background so I'm always keen to try and look at what tools are out in the market and technology in the market that would give us efficiency and give us advantage as well, differentiate us for our clients. If I look at some of the tools we've embraced and scaled, we are right now today we're you know embracing AI, we're embracing analytics and the data that we have is you know the power that's within that data. We're also embracing chatbots and finding ways to automate elements of the recruitment process that for many years have been manual load, very labor-intense, very cumbersome, and is often at lower on investment tasks. So, finding good ways to automate the recruitment process has been a real journey for Adecco and we are yes still advancing every day with what we're doing with our technology and tools. And that's exciting it's exciting because it doesn't displace our recruiters if we automate an element of their task and their business process. It actually enables them to focus on new work on you know where the market's going, what their customers really need, and their relationship-building, and focusing on different maturity of our solutions and what we're actually offering. So, what we find is as we brought in more tools to automate the process, the capability levels of our recruiters have improved, and we've got you know much higher-grade recruiters. I always say we have a high-performing team and that's absolutely true and we are enabling them to be that by taking away the low-hanging fruit from them through use of tools and technology. So, they embrace it. Our recruiters are not afraid of the tech. They actually will off my hands off of my bringing something new to the table which is a product that's going to help them in their day to be faster you know quicker speed to market, offering better service to their clients, helping their candidate supply and remain on our workforce you know on our workforce you know for a longer period of time. So, it's exciting. We're using many many tools in a really great way and they're here to stay. Technology has been enabling us the workplace, isn't it? It's here to stay.Max: They're lucky to have a leader that can embrace it so vividly because you know I started my company after doing a lot of recruitment myself, interviewing thousands of people over the phone, and feeling the dehumanization. You know I'm feeling my soul slipping away to know that that you know these days are for the most part gone that than now. It's much more value-added work. It's a redefinition of the role of recruiters that's happened over the last you know fifteen years which is yeah absolutely wonderful. Now my last question is about one of my favorite questions which is we all make hiring mistakes, and we try as I said we try to bury those memories. But sometimes it's good to wait a minute and remember and remember so we can draw the lessons from them. Can you walk us back through a specific hiring mistake you've made and what you know why you made that mistake and what we can learn from it?Kelly: This is a good question. I've never had this question before in my many interviews, so it's a nice first one. Maybe what I would say on this one is that if I go back, you know I've been around nearly three decades now twenty-seven years in recruitment, and one of the things we often used to do as leaders is hire multiple recruiters into the business and potentially at an average level. You know in the hope that a good proportion would step up and a good proportion would remain average, and you might have one or two strugglers that would not necessarily be the right fit and you would make that call and you would mass hire, especially in the large recruitment firms. And that works to a certain extent but it's not really great for the individuals and it's not the most rewarding way to you know build a high-performing culture in workforce. So, we definitely don't do that now. What we do now is just hold the line and very carefully wait for the right fit, the right cultural fit, never compromising cultural values or ethics. Waiting for the right fit even if it means we have an open vacancy for quite a long time and well losing productivity as a result of that because it pays off more. We've been hiring that way for the last two-three years and our everything has improved as a result. I would say our culture is better, our productivity per recruiter is better, the camaraderie has improved, and you know the level of business that we're selling is far far better. And it's because we make much more cautious hires, we just yeah, I'd rather sit with an open role than to fail you know to fail with more people and one of them might not make it. I'm not a lover of that model. I don't think it's good leadership practice and it doesn't really yeah it just doesn't serve you well in the long term. So yeah, I hold the line now while I draw the higher well and take time and be cautious about it and know that we are really getting that good fit than you know mass hire and hope. Max: Very good advice. Hold the line. Don't lower your standards.Kelly: Yeah.Max: You can always look back and say oh well I did this because of that mistake. But in your heart of hearts, you know when you're making a hiring mistake. When you're dropping the bar. So it's important to just accept the fact that your business is gonna be stretched and, like you said Kelly, sometimes at the risk of hurting productivity, but it's a small price to pay for a long-term gain. So thanks a lot Kelly for that advice and for your time and well I hope we'll get some of your followers to listen to our podcast. Kelly: Thank you, it's good to talk to you today. Max: That was Kelly Van Nelson, Managing Director at Adecco Australia, which tells us resilience whether at the company level or the individual level is one of the most valuable skills you can have in recruitment because things change fast and recruiters are change agents.They help whole economies reinvent themselves. I hope you enjoyed this interview and that you'll be back for more. Please remember to like follow and share. 

Kelly Travis is a health and wellness coach and host of She Doesn't Settle. TBAS # 38: Self-Talking with Steven Handel ZAK: WARNING, today's episode contains use of the s-word. 8 times. Kelly Travis is a health, wellness and leadership coach and she's been doing some work. Not just with her clients but on her self. KELLY: I never had a positive thing to say about myself. It derailed me a lot and what resulted was I never really used my own voice. I never went after goals I actually wanted. I would freeze up in taking action on things that were really important. My self-worth was really shitty. Like I just wasn't good enough. And this work has allowed me to see myself differently. ZAK: One of the things thats helped Kelly move forward is this thing that she does. When she finds her self talking shit to herself, she's figured out a way to talk back to that shit-talker. It's a simple question she asks herself, is this thought useful. KELLY: Because the shit-talker is loud. The other voice in our head that's encouraging and is a cheerleader and tells us to keep going is very quiet. The shit-talker is loud and that's the one we head all the time cause it's on auto-pilot. It's the same stuff everyday. Research shows us 85 percent of our thoughts are the same from the day before. And that question, is this though useful...doesn't matter if it's true...IS IT USEFUL and being able to choose something else that will keep us going in a positive direction. Right? So if I say to myself, I'm such a shitty mom. I can't do this. I suck at this. Is that thought useful? No. What can I think instead. I'm doing the best I can right now. It's messy. It's chaotic but I'm doing the best I can. ZAK:And so it's like, we're going through our day. We hear the negative shit-talking come in and we stop ourselves and say, is this thought helpful? KELLY: Yeah. And that's the part that requires the work. Reminding ourselves to check in because as a society we are just on auto-pilot. We don't pay attention to what we're thinking most of the time. So, having a post-it note up on your computer that says, ask the question or setting a reminder on your phone to ask yourself the question so it becomes something you start to do automatically without thinking after time. ZAK:And we answer the question. Is this helpful? No, it's not helpful. And then what? KELLY: You think of a neutral thought. I don't believe in bullshit positive affirmations. The brain just doesn't work that way. It never worked for me. Now, if you have people that like them and they work, awesome, but it's hard for the brain to go from you suck to oh my god you're amazing! It doesn't work that way so we want to go somewhere in the middle. A thought that we can latch on to that we can still believe but is more helpful, right? So, whatever that is whether it's like the example I gave you which is I'm doing the best I can. Or, you know, something along those lines that keeps us moving in a positive direction.

On this episode of our podcast, we speak with Kellianne Fedio, an Amazon consultant. She discusses selling her previous business for seven figures and the creation of her new podcast. Her journey is long and interesting, with a lot of twists and turns. Here, she shares her entire story and offers great advice to those who want to follow in her footsteps. Tune in to hear Kellianne's great insights. Topics: When she stumbled on Ecommerce, she realized it was a good fit. How Amazon has changed since she started. Why outside funding sources are necessary. The importance of Mastermind groups. Living through rocky periods. Explaining rebates. Kellianne's consulting methods.   Resources: Kellianne on LinkedIn Kellianne on Facebook Digital Shelf Strategy Quiet Light Podcast@quietlightbrokerage.com   Transcription: Mark: Joe, we know that first-hand experiences of people that have gone through the process of building a business, preparing it for sale, going through that exit, that tends to be some of the greatest stories and stories where we can get a lot of lessons back to us that we can apply and learn how to optimize our own businesses for a better exit. I know you had Kellianne on recently and she shared her story of building her business and going through that exit and now her current pivot where she's starting up a podcast on this very topic. Joe: Yeah, Kellianne is good friends with another good friend of ours, Paul Miller, who owns Cozy Phones and Kellianne had a seven-figure exit. Technically, I guess it would be early this year that she closed on the transaction; early 2020. And she's learned a lot through that process and now she's sharing that experience and the knowledge and the networking and the story of building a business on Amazon; all the resources and connections that you need to make in order to build it well and build it right with an eventual exit in mind. So she shares her entire story and gives real tips and advice from her own direct experience during the interview. Joe: Hey, folks, Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage and the Quiet Light Podcast, Today I've got Kellianne Fedio and I had to say that out loud several times to make sure I pronounced it right. Kelly is a former attorney, Amazon seller, seven-figure exit that she's had recently. And she's going to be moving into helping people build their Amazon businesses for a stronger exit down the road. Kelly, welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. Kelly: Thank you so much for having me, Joe. I'm such a big fan of everything you guys are doing over at Quiet Light and have done for the past several years so it's a real honor to be here. Joe: I appreciate that. I did more of an intro just now than I normally do, but I didn't read from the script. But why don't you go ahead and tell us who you are and your story and where you came from and what you've done here? Kelly: Sure. So I started out as an attorney in a former life, and after having kids, getting married, I became very unhappy in that profession. That was just a lot of long hours, not enough pay at least for what I was doing, and I really wanted to be there for my kids. So I became a stay at home mom for a while and loved every minute of it. And then when my kids started elementary school, I was like, okay, what's my next chapter here? And I never would have guessed it would have been entrepreneurship. I was very traditional type-A personality in high school. I'm going to get all A's. I'm going to go to college. I'm going to go to law school. I'm going to be an attorney. And that was like my plan for the rest of my life. And so fast forward to several years later, after having practiced law for 10 years and now having kids and a husband and a wonderful family life, I was like what am I passionate about? What can I put out there into the world that not only is going to hopefully bring in income to our family but also that I could be excited about doing? And so I just knew it had to have something to do with online; being online and creating value online. And so, like a lot of other entrepreneurs getting involved in the online space, I tried a lot of different things, made tons of mistakes, had tons of failures, learned a lot, loved every minute of that experience, but sooner or later stumbled upon e-commerce and pretty quickly realized this is something that I really could see myself doing for the foreseeable future. And so around that time, Amazing Selling Machine had become pretty prominent in terms of the Amazon education space. So I was in ASM3 and of course… Joe: I got to ask, what number were you? The early ones were the good years. They're coming back around. They're doing good stuff again. I talked to them last week. Kelly: They are. They're always innovating, always doing new stuff so, I mean I always bring that out when I'm on podcasts or other interviews, because if it wasn't for that course my life would be a lot different. So I met an amazing group of entrepreneurs with the affiliate group that I joined. It was Ryan Moran and his tribe. I met a lot of amazing people. I'm still friends with them to this day, and really just dug in and had some pretty early success early on. So it was really, really exciting and I knew that this was what I was going to be focusing on, probably forever. Joe: How did you choose your first product? Kelly: I chose something that I thought I could build a brand around. So I'm very passionate about talking to other Amazon sellers about when they're thinking about how to start their business. You know, people always ask, well, how do you pick a product? First and foremost, you have to build a brand these days. When I started, you could throw up kind of anything and just with a little luck and… Joe: How many years ago was it that you started? Kelly: 2014. Joe: Okay. Kelly: Yeah, so it was a while ago. Things have drastically changed, right, in the Amazon space? Joe: A little bit, yeah. Kelly: Yeah, a little bit. And so even back then; and I had no branding experience or consumer product experience, but I knew that this first product, I could build a brand around it and actually wasn't a product that had a huge demand at the time, but it was a product that I knew that I would love and that I knew that other active women would love. So that's really what I built the brand around and just continued to develop products; not all winners, lots of failures… Joe: Additional products all within that brand, yes? Kelly: Exactly, that would serve a core audience and solve a problem or need. Joe: How many products did you launch initially, was it just one? Kelly: It was just one. Joe: And it was a success out of the gate? Kelly: Not right out of the gate. So I launched it in August but by that Q4, I had reached seven figures on top-line revenue so it was really, really exciting. Joe: Cool, very exciting. Kelly: Just with one product, one variation. Joe: And probably not working as many hours as you did as an attorney. Kelly: No, I mean, I definitely was working a lot because I was still in learning mode. I mean, the thing about Amazon and e-commerce is you're not only learning the platform itself, but you're learning how to source overseas, perhaps, and manufacturing and product design and advertising and marketing. So there's a lot of different skill sets you have to learn. So I definitely was really, really passionate about learning as much as I could. Joe: When you learn all of those things, do you think it's things you need to learn and then do yourself or do you think that there are certain experts that you can outsource certain things to like photography or listing creation or whatever it might be; importing from China, dealing with different things? Are there certain aspects to an Amazon business you feel that should be outsourced and things that you should do in-house as the entrepreneur that started the business? Kelly: Oh, absolutely. In the beginning, I think you should do everything with the exception of maybe photography. Super specific skill sets, like graphic design or photography certainly, you can outsource that early on. But everything else I would say you have to learn first and foremost yourself before you can effectively outsource it. And there are I mean, so many great service providers now that have obviously spawned in this Amazon industry not only software services but also other types of services, whether it's Amazon brand management or writing listings, things like that. So now it's all out there, but you should really learn the components and the strategy behind it first before outsourcing. Joe: How much money did you start with Kellianne? Kelly: I started with about $5,000. Joe: Okay, and did you have to borrow more to keep up with inventory? Because that's the story that I consistently hear. I started out with X and then when you dig deeper the business didn't fund the growth. Did yours fund the growth or did you have to go and borrow more? Kelly: In the beginning, it did. But yes, even if you reinvest all of your profits, there's no way you can grow initially without getting capital from outside sources. So about a year into it, I was able to get Amazon Lending so that was great. But before that, it was a lot of credit cards. And then early on, I actually was able to get a line of credit after the first year. But until then, it was really credit cards. And I wouldn't recommend people doing that but sometimes it's just a necessary evil to get where you need to go. Joe: Yeah, I was playing golf with a mentor years ago before I grab my head and one of the things he said to me was get a line of credit set up now; before you need it, get that line of credit set up because you never know when you're going to need it. And I see so many people that are struggling to keep up with purchasing more and more inventory for growth or developers if it's a SaaS business because they don't have the ability to stroke a check when it's necessary. They go hunting for that line of credit when they need it as opposed to getting it set up beforehand so I think it's great to get it set up beforehand. So you hit six figures you said by the end of Q4 your first year… Kelly: Seven figures, I was very lucky. Yeah. Joe: And did a million in revenue in 2004. Kelly: Mm-hmm. Joe: Don't you like how I could do the seven-figure translation to a million? That was really; okay, all right. Anyway was it all with one SKU or did you add additional SKUs as well? Kelly: By that next quarter of 2015 then I started adding more SKUs, but it was really just on one product. And so that talk about funding the inventory for that, I got to say it was just a lot of luck. I was able to forge a really strong relationship with my supplier very early on in China without ever having met him. And he gave me terms once he saw that this thing; and that normally doesn't happen that early on in the relationship. Joe: No. Yeah, I know. Kelly: He was able to give me terms. So that's another way that I was able to fund that growth so quickly that that first year. Joe: Yeah, if you can get to China, folks, we did a podcast with Athena Severi from China Magic and before that with Dan from Titan Network all about negotiating terms with your Chinese manufacturers, and it does exactly what Kellianne did, which was it gives you more cash flow for buying more inventory. And if you can get terms, it's a lot better than an Amazon Loan because the interest rate is very different. It's nonexistent in most cases. During that initial journey Kellianne if we summarize things so far, you took ASM3, you invested $5,000, you did a million dollars in revenue. Sounds easy, but I'm sure it wasn't, right? Kelly: It was and I know it sounds easy and like I said, there was a lot of luck in there too. I'm not going to like take credit that it was just all my superpower genius. But I did have tremendous tenacity because between the time that I launched the product in August, it was like pushing a boulder uphill; August, September, October, November. It wasn't really till November that it really took off. And I had the foresight and maybe just stupidity to order a bunch of inventory in anticipation of Q4 and early on recognize that I could market this product as a gift in addition to just the primary keywords that were related to the product. So that was something that I did very early on and that allowed me to scale too because I was able to secure top positioning for keywords such as gifts for women, top Christmas gifts for women, things like that, very early on. So all of that came from me putting in the hard work of learning and masterminding, I can't underestimate the power of masterminding as well. I found a small group of; there were all guys, actually, I was the only girl. They are all amazed… Joe: So you were in charge essentially, right? Kelly: Yeah, sort of but we just were kindred spirits and we became very close and we would meet once a week and we were all building Amazon businesses, others went on to build SaaS businesses and all other types of businesses. They're all super successful entrepreneurs and that really made a huge difference in making me feel like I could really do this because I had other people in my corner so that was all. Joe: There's nothing more valuable than that and it didn't cost you anything. It sounds like there are groups that can get together just to help share information or you can join more formal groups like eCommerceFuel or EcomCrew Premium things of that nature. Kelly: Exactly. Joe: I think it's incredible. So let's talk money; ASM3, launched million dollars in revenue within the first year, you must be rolling in cash flow, yes? Kelly: No, absolutely not. Joe: I knew the answer to that. Kelly: I wish. Joe: How much did you; other than distributions just to make you feel good to pay taxes that were going to be due, did you put yourself on payroll or take any money out of the business for you and your family? Kelly: No, not the first couple of years I did not. And I was again, lucky that I had a husband who had a full-time career and that's the money that we relied on to support our family. So starting this business, that wasn't the mindset that we were going to do this to support our family. This was hopefully something that we could build into something bigger and perhaps fuel some bigger investing goals and things like that. Joe: So you would not recommend someone listening quit their job and they've got $10,000 and they're going to do $5,000 to start the Amazon business and live off the rest until revenues start rolling; bad idea, right, because they're going to run out of money very fast? Kelly: Absolutely, I would never recommend somebody quit their day job. You really need to start any business, in my opinion, as a side hustle. I mean, even my husband and I to this day, like right now, I'm really getting into real estate investing and he's getting into day trading and we're going to wait until we become masters of that and really start making significant sums of money before he would ever consider quitting his job. Joe: Yeah, good advice. All right, so 2016 rolls around how do things go? Did you have any rocky periods where you thought this isn't for me or did revenue just continue to climb? Kelly: Oh, no. There was a lot of rocky periods. So back then there was no brand registry, there was no; just counterfeiters galore and the initial product that I had launched all of a sudden came on everybody's radar. I can't remember if by then there were tools such as Jungle Scout or things like that to look at what sales revenue these products were doing. But it definitely; people caught on and started copying my exact listings, the exact product. I mean, certainly, I didn't have any proprietary rights. The product was a private label product, but definitely, competition grew and revenue; I was able to maintain revenue because I diversified my keyword traffic and wasn't going with what everybody else is going for. Slowly but surely the market grew. But my market share also grew with it and then declined at some point because so many competitors came in. Joe: Did your margins tighten; did you have to drop the price too? Kelly: Yes, I did. I remember actually, so Q4 of my first year of selling, I think I sold that particular product at a price point of I think as high as $35. And now if you were to look at this product on Amazon it ranges between $10 and maybe $17 tops. Joe: Wow. Kelly: Yeah, and that happens. I mean you don't get to; that product was still a winning product by the time I sold my business but I knew that this couldn't sustain me forever. I needed to obviously continue rolling out products, right? Joe: And that's how you combatted it; you continued to roll out new SKUs? Kelly: Yes, absolutely. Joe: How did you determine what to do next in terms of SKU expansion? Kelly: I did make a lot of mistakes there. I launched a lot of products that failed. Joe: How many? Just out of curiosity. Kelly: How many failures? Joe: Yeah, after the initial launch out of the next 10, how many were successes, and how many were failures? Kelly: I would say I was probably at a 50:50 rate. Joe: That's good. Kelly: I would have liked it to be higher. And I think nowadays, with all of the tools that are available and with the mindset that you have to cut losers quickly; that was my biggest downfall, is it was so hard for me to give up on a product that I spent not only time but a lot of money on developing and then to just let it go. That was really hard for me. I was emotionally tied and that's one area that if I had cut those losers quicker, I would have freed up my cash flow and been able to expand and scale a lot quicker and more efficiently. Joe: Let's go into that a little bit further. Let's define a loser in terms of products. Is it one that is negative profit-wise or is it at 5% profit where the others are at 43% profit? How do you determine what a loser is and then what action do you take with it? Kelly: Well, it also depends on the time period. So when you're launching a product; everybody has their own time frame, but I kind of give it a three-month cycle of pushing it out, launching, ranking it, advertising, heavy on advertising so you're usually in the red. At least I was okay with being in the red at that point, but then it should start to pick up after that if it's going to be a winning product. If you've done everything right with your launch, and ranking strategy, it should just start to kind of take off on its own, really. Joe: A three month period is that what you're okay? Kelly: Yeah, about three months. Joe: Okay. Kelly: At least for me back then. I would say now it's probably a longer time window. I would say probably about six months. But there becomes this like intuitive sense of you're still continuously pushing a boulder uphill with your nose rather than it's starting to gain some traction and go downhill. And so you've got to know when is that point to cut it off and it definitely took me a lot of failed products and a lot of wasted money and time to finally realize. Even up until when I sold my business; I mean, the buyer who bought my business, there were quite a few SKUs that he was just like I don't want to continue with these because these are just not making enough profit. They were profitable but not making enough profit. So everybody has their own standards. Joe: So yeah, there's SKU balance that offsets risk. If you've got one SKU doing 60% or 70% of your revenue, some buyers will perceive it as more risk other buyers will perceive it as less work, and they like that. Kelly: Yeah. Joe: How do you; I mean, if you're at a six month period now in your assessment of really it takes that long to push that boulder uphill until it's profitable and then you determine whether or not you get to keep that SKU that you've worked so hard on or if it's not profitable enough and you move on. How often are you launching SKUs? It sounds like you're probably needing to launch them every couple of months just to keep up and stay ahead of the game. Is that the case or is that something you recommend? Kelly: Yeah, it definitely depends on your product mix and what your revenue goals are and what capital you have to work with and your cash flow; all those things. But ideally, if you could be launching a new product I would say at least every quarter but there are sellers out there that are launching products every week or every two weeks. It just depends. I did not have nor did I want to have some big, huge behemoth of a business where I had a million employees and I was doing all the product design in the beginning; myself, along with my manufacturers, maybe hiring some outside design people to create changes to existing products to make them better. That was always kind of my MO. And really, you have to have a certain amount of capital that is allocated to new product development and know where that line is because then you don't want to let your other product suffer either and that's what's bringing cash in and keeping the lights on, right? So there's a fine balance there and I really do think that comes down to cash flow management; knowing your cash flow. Joe: And that's something so many people fail at. I probably looked at 8,000 profit and loss statements over the last eight, almost nine years now, and I'll be honest with you, probably 70% of them are inaccurate; wrong cash accounting, not using Quick Books or Xero, but the audience knows that. I know that's my thorn in my side. Let's talk about favorite tools. I mean, you obviously have figured out the Amazon game. You must have used some tools along the way. Have there been any that have stood out that you kind of you think must have? I mean, you mentioned Jungle Scout a few minutes ago. What tools do you use in your Amazon business or recommend as you work with new Amazon owners now to help them fine-tune their business and get it ready to sell? Kelly: Well, I wouldn't say I would at this point in time recommend a specific tool because there's a lot of competitors in the Amazon SaaS space, right? But you want a good tool for first and foremost, keyword research and keyword tracking. So, for example, Helium10 is a great one for that. But there are many others out there that are very good. So I'm not going to say that Helium10 is the best. They are one of the best and I like that tool a lot. And then you're going to want to have a tool for launching and ranking. These days that's all about rebates and so I recommend Six Leaf. My good friend Joe Junfola created Six Leaf and he's got a very new and exciting rebate option in there now and I'm helping my friend Paul Miller with his business in using that. Joe: Really? He's my friend, too. Kelly: What's that? Yes, your friend too; our good friend. Joe: Our friend. Kelly: Yeah, and so if you don't have outside traffic that you can send to your listings and have like a system for that, you definitely are going to need to do some I would say giveaways but these days that means rebates. And so there are other platforms that can do that but that's the one I recommend for that. And then Helium10 basically has all the other components that I would recommend, such as product research and keyword tracking. There are so many different tools out there and they've all kind of evolved over time and they all kind of overlap and what was most frustrating to me by the time that I sold my company is I had so many different tools. And even though they did a lot of the same functions, one did one better than the other and so I felt like I just had a lot of bloat in there and a lot of things that I could cut out. And so I wish somebody would just like focus on one thing and just do it right. Joe: Yeah, because if you wasted a thousand dollars a month, that's going to cost you an awful lot in the sale of your business. Kelly: Yeah. Joe: Can we talk about rebates for just a second? I want you to educate me and educate the audience because a rebate to me; from a novice standpoint and I don't sell on Amazon, I did once upon a time but it'd be a conflict for me now as I see it. Plus, I don't ever want to import from China. Kelly: I don't blame you. Joe: Yeah, I don't want to; I was at Helium10 back when it was a man he had Illuminati Mastermind and I was at the event. It was in Cancún and somebody was up on stage and she was literally talking about importing from China, talking literally about the thickness of the corrugated box that your products have to be in. And I swear to God I felt sick three times and I thought never will I import from China. Rebates, you're giving something away. They're getting a discount back or they're doing a review and they're getting a discount. Explain how it worked because it sounds like it's definitely against terms of services depending upon how it's used. Kelly: Now, I don't think it's against terms of services. I mean there's a lot of rebate services out there now. Joe: What is a rebate? Kelly: A rebate is the purchaser gets to purchase the products and then they get reimbursed the full amount usually to be most effective or it could be some percentage of that amount. So traditional retailers have been doing rebates for years. I mean, it's a very common thing in marketing. Joe: So there's no hey, we'll give you 100% refund for review it's just buy it and we're giving you your money back and that improves the algorithm rankings; organic rankings. Kelly: It's a keyword ranking strategy. I would not use it as a review strategy; absolutely not. Joe: Yeah, okay the review strategy definitely gets against terms of services. Okay, thank you. I needed to hear that. Kelly: I mean, I wouldn't say it's necessarily against terms of service if you're asking for a review after the fact. But it just can be on that blurred line that you could potentially; and I haven't heard of anybody getting taken down for this but if you were to rebate a customer and then after the fact ask for a review then Amazon could potentially look at that as gaming the system. So you just want to be really careful and I would just recommend that sellers don't ask reviews for customers that they've given rebates to. Joe: What about is it cheaper or should it be a dual strategy of sending traffic from outside; buying traffic on Facebook that would drive directly using a keyword directly to the Amazon page, is that going to have a similar effect as rebates, cost less, cost more, or would you recommend a dual strategy of both of those or have you not sent traffic from outside sources like Facebook? Kelly: Well, that's a great question, Joe, but the rebate is just kind of like the end result of what the customer is getting but the traffic and the quality of the traffic is the most important thing. So a lot of these rebate services that are out there, they're just for using the same audience that they've built on Facebook over and over again. And Amazon now is so sophisticated they can tell that all that traffic is coming from the same source that's just this incestuous pool. So you really want to be careful of the services that you use. And ultimately, the best way is always to build your own list, to have your own audience whether that's a mini chat list or an email list or if you're a master of Facebook Marketing and you know how to target and you know what kind of audiences are really going to go and actually buy your product and if you have enough profit margin built into your product to do Facebook advertising. That's a whole another thing in and of itself. But for ranking purposes, you need to send high-quality traffic and a lot of these ranking or rebate services you just have to be careful of where they're getting their traffic from. Joe: Okay, so far we've established you as an Amazon expert; one that's been there, done that. I had to ask a couple of questions; dumb questions, if you will, to get us to where we are right now. Let's talk about digital shelf strategy, your business, where you're going to actually help Amazon sellers. If somebody out there in the audience is thinking that they want to exit their business someday in the future, or if they're just struggling and they're barely able to keep up with inventory demands, not taking any money out of the business and they're pulling their hair out, how are you going to be able to help them? Kelly: Great question. I started digital self-strategy when I was still a seller because I've over the years, I love Amazon. I live, breathe, eat, sleep, Amazon. I still do. And I would get questions from people anywhere from one-off questions to people wanting me to help them with their businesses. And so I have been very, very generous I feel like with my time wanting to help people. But sometimes if it needs to be a little bit more work or more time spent with somebody then I set up this agency just so I could have a way to work with sellers ongoing. And so between that and then another new business that I started with, Paul Miller, Amazing Exits, the consulting piece of that is really helping sellers with being able to look at their businesses holistically and help them figure out what are the strengths and weaknesses of that business. So kind of like a SWAT analysis and being able to help them with the things that are going to really move the needle and increasing the value of their business, whether or not they ever want to sell it because if you increase the value of your business, you're going to be spending out more cash flow. It's going to make you healthier in the long run. And then it'll certainly make it a lot more attractive to a potential buyer someday if you've got all your financials in order and you've got a really healthy profit margin and ROI and all the other things that go into having a valuable and sellable business. So it's a one-stop-shop, really, in terms of being able to look at a business, identify what are its strengths and weaknesses. For the weaknesses, we want to connect them with the resources that are going to help them fix those weaknesses and then ultimately be kind of their white-glove concierge along the way to a successful exit. Joe: And the Amazing Exits Podcast, that's where you're going to talk to people that have actually sold their businesses and have those resources, those experts on as well. Kelly: Yes, that's going to be both. I mean, we are looking for as many sellers as we can who have exited so we definitely want to have those as guests on. But we're also featuring top experts such as yourself to talk about exit planning. We're really trying to make exit planning sexy. This is what I say all the time and to really… Joe: Good luck. Kelly: Well, we're very passionate about it. And I think that if we couch it in terms of making your business more valuable now, like do you want more money now in your bank account and your pocket to feel your life, to feel your investments? Well, that's what it takes to build a successful business. And you might not ever want to sell it, but you should be building a sellable asset and realize why you're doing this. Joe: You're preaching to the choir. Making exit sexy again or sexy to begin with is; I had David Wood on the podcast and one of his visions was for people that are planning to eventually sell their business to imagine themselves on the beach doing whatever they want because they've got enough money in the bank to live off of and that's the sexy part of it. Or if you're building a better business, it's kicking off more cash flow. You are struggling less. You're able to do the things that you want because you've got the money and that part is sexy as well. Accounting makes most people's eyes bleed. It's the foundation of understanding cash flow and running your business successfully to get a strong exit. As you know, Kelly, anyone listening that owns any kind of online business at this time odds are that their business is their most valuable asset. Also, if it's an e-commerce business that's growing odds are that more than 50% of the money they'll ever make from that business will come the day that they sell it. All of that combined should kick start them into wanting to do more exit planning or coaching or training or things; whatever you want to call it, just getting in shape. As you want to work out and get your body in shape you should exercise your exit strategy muscles so that you're in better shape for your eventual exit because you will have a better path to it, a better exit as well, and be better off afterwards so that you can all go on to your next adventures, whether it be start another online business or do what Kelly is doing which is consulting and helping other people or where she was just a few years ago. Kelly: I couldn't agree more. That's so well said. And I would just add to that then, I truly believe, Joe, that one of the fastest ways to build wealth is to build a business and in this case an Amazon business and sell it. And that's the word that I want to get out to people, is that this is, like you said, your most valuable asset, most likely. And I didn't retire after I sold my business. I made a nice chunk of change and now I'm able to invest that into cash-producing assets but I will never stop being an entrepreneur. But I have so much freedom; clarity now that I didn't have when I was on that hamster wheel of running the business. So I want to just be able to express that to other sellers that there is another option to get off the hamster wheel and you can sell and do this again if you want so you'll have a lot more freedom and peace of mind. Joe: And cash in the bank throughout though. Kelly: Yes. Joe: Great. Kelly, thanks so much for joining the Quiet Light Podcast. I appreciate it. We'll put URLs up in the show notes for people who want to reach out. Kelly is there any other way that they can or should find you? Kelly: Yes, absolutely. They can connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm pretty active over there. @KellianneFedio on Facebook and then they can also go toAmazingExits.com and sign up for our email list for when we get ready to launch the podcast later in August most likely. Joe: All right, she rolled her eyes a little bit here folks for those not watching. She's got a hopeful goal of August. I think it's going to be great whenever you launch it. If it takes an extra few weeks is not a big deal. Kelly, thanks for being in the Quiet Light Podcast. I appreciate it. Kelly: Thank you so much, Joe.

Learn More About The Content Discussed...No Boss Talk:https://nobosstalk.comKelly Roach’s Website:https://kellyroachcoaching.comKelly Roach on Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/kellyroachinternationalThe Camp Elevate Facebook Group:hereBeth’s Instagram:@bethholdengravesBeth’s website:https://www.bethholdengraves.comProfit HER Way Course:https://www.bethholdengraves.com/profitKeynotes discussed:Now I feel like I can like look you in the eyes, I can have a real conversation, we can connect with one another. I never once felt like I could connect with people. It's like it almost stole my superpower because I was so good at selling when I could connect with people. (07:16)If you decide that you want this to be a moneymaking venture, you can, you know, turn it into a business where you can quit your day job, retire your spouse, travel the world, retire, whatever the case. (12:34)She did a $300,000 launch her first month and unstoppable because she leveraged her existing Facebook group that she had never really understood how to get maximum value out of. (15:22)The way that you create that is when you deliver compelling content that really meets people where they are and serves them in a really high level. (16:52)And this is the big piece that sets you apart besides just personable, valuable content that works by the connection is the accountability piece is, I have someone in my inbox saying, Hey, Beth let's chat. (20:39)When Did It Air...January 20, 2020Episode Transcript...Beth:Welcome to ‘You’re Not the Boss of Me’. If you are determined to break glass ceilings and build it your way, this show is for you. I’m your host Beth Graves and I am obsessed with helping you to not just dream it, but make the plan, connect the dots and create what you crave. Are you ready? Let’s get started.Hey bosses and welcome back. Another episode that I'm saying, oh my goodness, pinch me, how did I get this opportunity? I guess it happened because I visualized, manifested and just decided I will have Kelly Roach on the show. And it is happening! I'm excited for you to dive into this episode. A little bit about Kelly is, she is known as the Business Catalyst helping elite business owners become game changers in their field, achieving million-dollar breakthroughs in business. She has helped me to have my own personal breakthrough and you'll hear about that in this episode.She is a former fortune 500 executive and she transitioned from her big, big job in fortune 500 to working with online strategies for entrepreneurs. I am so grateful that she made this transition so that she could be accessible to all of us with her live launch strategies. She's been featured in every major publication on every major news station and now on You're Not the Boss of Me podcast. She has her own podcast too, which is called Unstoppable Success Radio. I listened to it without fail every single time when an episode drops. I cannot wait for you to hear what Kelly has to say. And trust me, you will want to hear about how the live launch method can help you grow your online or network marketing business. So, are you ready, bosses? Here we go.All right, everyone welcome. And you can't even imagine how excited I am to have like my girl crush idle with me. It's like when she said yes, I felt like, Oh my gosh. So, Kelly Roach, welcome.Kelly:Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.Beth:So, I found you when I was scrolling Facebook one day and I saw this perky video about how we could use live video, to sell without being weird, spammy, all of those things. And I was so curious because most of our listeners are network marketers who are looking to be more authentic and genuine. And I know with your live launch programs, you work with a ton of us. I'm wondering, coaching clients. So can you talk about what comes to mind when, let's go back to when you decided that the webinar or, and we do a lot of that even in network marketing was old school and how you discovered life being the way to create better community, create better connections and have more sales.Kelly:Yeah, definitely. Well, you know, if I dial it back to where all of my original business success came from, I was literally going door to door business to business, working for a fortune 500 company doing sales. I literally would come in the office; I would pound the phones for four hours straight. Like literally didn't even put the phone down. It would rest on my shoulder in between calls until I got a headset. And, and then in the afternoon I would go out every day to 20 to 30 businesses. So, this was like hardcore, you know, sell it. Right? And, but what was really, really cool about it was Beth, when I could connect, you know, face to face, eyeball to eyeball, belly to belly with someone. I made the sale, you know? And then when I started my own business in 2012, I'm like, okay, cool.Like social media is awesome. It's this amazing like interface and platform and all of that. But what I started noticing was happening was like all of these layers and layers of technology and barriers and things to manage were coming in, but I was new to the online space. So, as I grew my business, I was listening to the people that were teaching how to build business online. I was still taking the principles that I knew, but I was like, okay, how do I apply this to social media? How do I apply this to the online world? And so, I'm layering in all the tech and the funnels and the emails and the webinars and the prerecorded videos and the list goes on and it's just exhausting, and it just never really resonated for me. It never felt good. I never felt like I could show up.Like right now I feel like I can like look you in the eyes, I can have a real conversation, we can connect with one another. I never once felt like I could connect with people. It's like it almost stole my superpower because I was so good at selling when I could connect with people. And then I felt like when I got into the online world, I had so many barriers between me and people that I lost my superpower. And so finally one day I was just like, screw this. I remember, you know, the girls are still on my team now that were with me and I was like, we're getting rid of it all. I'm like, I'm not doing any of that anymore. I'm like, it's ridiculous. It doesn't work. It's not working. You know, we worked so hard. So, I said, let's just try, like us and the camera.Like let's just try like removing all of these obstacles and barriers and try to focus on connecting once again with people. And low and behold, the second that we made that change, our business started to grow and grow and grow exponentially because now all of my competitors are doing prerecorded videos and prerecorded videos and edited, you know, stuff with, you know, all this fake like, you know, you know what you see online. It's like all fabricated stories of the fairies and unicorns, right? And glitter and dust and then here I am, just this person that's teaching and sharing real stuff and people are getting value from it. And it just exploded. And then I was like, okay, this is too good not to teach. And that's how I started teaching the live launch method. It was really out of necessity because we were failing not out of like something so great that was working so well, but it's now really revolutionizing the way that people do business online. It's really cool.Beth:So, I'll share with our listeners because I've shared with you that I felt really called once. And I'm saying this to network marketers, that I see too many people attempting to coach before they've, what I think is the before you've made $1 million. So, I just thought, okay, I want to share what I've learned. That is not all of the magic tricks. Like I kept seeing like build your business with automation. Never get on the phone again. And I'm thinking we're changing people's lives. We've taken what we've learned from you, in terms of our network marketing team. We're now doing laser coaching sessions, so they get to work with a Million-dollar earner. We are, and we'll talk a little bit at the end. Kelly just challenged me to create a live launch. So, stay tuned for how we can share the business opportunity with more people using what we call the live launch.So, some of you are thinking, what is live launch? And I want to give a little background of, I had invested so much money into thinking about how I could build out coaching programs and always got caught up in the tech, could not figure out how to put the Facebook pixel for an ad. And then it was overwhelming. I thought, screw it. I make plenty of money in network marketing, but my message, the amount of women that I can impact and help now is incredible, because that's my mission. So, I took a leap into live launch and literally just started sharing the tools and techniques, built a group and have women that I'm already working with in a program, and paid back my investment within 48 hours, which was insane. It's insane. It's crazy. So, we know it's magical and if you're wondering what is live launch? I want to connect those pieces to what we're doing in network marketing.So, I'm going to give Kelly a hot seat right now because I've been in the hot seat. So, let's, let's just role play this. If I was going to, let's say I'm in the travel business, which I'm not, and people could make money with me either booking travel or setting up travel agents to work with them. Okay? And normally they'd hop on a webinar and I'd share all the slides, which took me all day to put together. I missed picking my daughter up from school because I'm putting together the slides and literally it felt like my drunk uncle was driving me around. But I've decided I'm going to do this, the live launch. Wait, we're like creating something right here on, on the spot. And so, what comes to mind if someone's listening and says, okay, I want to use Facebook Live to share what we're doing with this travel business. So how would live launch work for that?Kelly:Yeah, definitely. Oh my gosh, I'm getting so excited. So, if it were me, the way that I would design the live launch would be like I would have part one of the content be you know, how to get your luxury travel paid for. Right? And never spend a dime while staying in the best resorts around the world. Right? So, it would be like you would teach them, the first thing that people want to do is they want to travel more, and they don't want to spend their life savings on it, right? So, you have to meet people where they are. Right? And then it might be like the second piece of content might be how I went from, you know, getting my travel paid for to getting paid to travel. Right? And then the third set might be how I went from getting my travel paid for to quitting my day job and being able to retire my spouse based on my travel, you know, my side travel business and then in might be how I can help you launch your own travel business, even in the pockets of your spare time, so that you can first get your travel paid for.And then if you decide that you want this to be a moneymaking venture, you can, you know, turn it into a business where you can quit your day job, retire your spouse, travel the world, retire, whatever the case. But really what it is, is you start off by meeting people where they are and giving them the content that they really crave. Everybody wants to travel more. Everybody wants to get their travel paid for. How can someone do that? Right? They can get into a network marketing couple company that offers travel, right? Buy and do it. Start taking the trips themselves, get the trips paid for, invite other people to do it. How do you do that? You share content. When you travel, you show the beautiful pictures, you show the video, you do live streams from there talking about, I cannot believe it, but this is me working right now, right?This is me working, I'm, you know, on the beach and you know, blah blah blah. I think it's just what we have to remember is that everybody in this day and age wants to feel connected. That is why we're on social media 24/7. But the problem is that, and scientific research shows this, although people are more connected than ever, they feel more disconnected than ever, right? But when you come live and when you teach and you add value for people and you show up in perfectly, that's a really important part. Like I let my dog in with me, I let my five-year-old daughter and with me, you know, like showing up in perfect is a huge piece of your human connection. That's going to get people really excited to buy into your brand because it gets them to open up to you to say, Oh, you know what? Beth is like human, like she's cool. You know, she's someone I want to get to know, right? She's not just this, you know, talking head on a white screen, you know, green screen behind her that's trying to present as you know, this, that and the other. So, I don't know if that answers kind of what you were looking.Beth:Yeah. Oh my gosh. My brain like is triggering and I'm thinking, okay, so that, that was just one topic. So when you think about the pillars of what I've noticed in Unstoppable Entrepreneurs, and even in the free group is, this is where people stay in network marketing businesses is, you talked about community and connection. So, a lot of us out there have these groups where people are hanging out learning products and we're missing the boat. It's sell, sell, sell, special, special, special, buy my stuff, join my team. And it's turning people away. What would your suggestion be for people that have existing groups using some of these awesome live launch tools?Kelly:Oh my gosh. So great. And this is so huge because I just did an interview with Michelle Bosh. She's in our program. She did a $300,000 launch her first month and Unstoppable because she leveraged her existing Facebook group that she had never really understood how to get maximum value out of. So, there's probably listeners right here right now that could be doing the same thing that just don't know. Like, you know, how do I take these pieces and make it work? I think exactly what you just described though; Beth is exactly what's been happening in the coaching space to be honest. I feel like, you know, there's so much selling and so much marketing that people forgot that we're here to serve.So what I say is first of all, if you have a Facebook group, start doing a weekly live show, right? You know, obviously Beth works with me, so you know, I'm such a believer in this, but start doing a weekly live show where you're not selling anything. You're not asking for anything. You are focused on giving. You are showing up to serve. You are showing up to add value for the people in your group. You're setting the tone as the leader and the group of what your values are, what kind of leader you are and that people should come hang out in your group and spend time there because no one wants to hang out in a group where all they feel like they're getting promos and specials and sales and buy more, and you know, do this and do that. Like people want to feel like there's something in it for them, right?There's a reason to come spend time here and as you said, Beth, they want community, real community, not just being in the group because it just so happened that someone's prospecting you to join their downline or you know they're in the group because you know, maybe at some point they've expressed an interest in a product. They actually want to feel a real sense of community. And the way that you create that is when you deliver compelling content that really meets people where they are and serves them in a really high level. What will happen is people start commenting on your chat and they start engaging with one another. They start getting to know other members of the group and now all of a sudden you have this dead group that you feel like you're pulling along on your shoulders to try and get people to engage to people.Looking forward to your weekly live show, building relationships with one another, posting of their own volition in the group because there's like a dialogue going. I always say it's like playing catch, right? That's like you don't want it. No one wants to play catch with themselves. They want to play catch with someone else and if they feel like it's just a one sided, they're being hammered with offers and specials and sales and do this, and there is no reciprocity. You know they aren't going to invest. Whereas if you build that reciprocity and build it and build it, this is why you see me constantly. Every day I'm doing either a podcast video or podcast, a video, some piece of free content. I'm going in someone else's group. I'm going on someone else's show because you to build a brand, which you guys are not as network marketers, it's really, really important that you're building a personal brand. When someone thinks of you, you don't want them to think of the name of your company. You want them to think of you as a person and as a leader and how you're leading people that have the same philosophy and values that are in alignment with the company that you represent. Does that make sense?Beth:Oh absolutely. And that is, you know, it's going on six years since being in the industry. And I feel such a shift, that it is people are joining because it's, it's not necessarily, yes, people love the products, but there's a million products we could all love. But the thing that I think is so interesting is that you're given a distribution channel, right? So, if you looked at live launch as a way to create more interest, more excitement around your opportunity or product, the winning pieces, you don't have to build the website. You don't have to collect the money. You don't have to distribute the product. So, all you have to do is show up. And we did. We did this in a let's get physical challenge. You would had been so proud, like the proud coach. Because we did the exact pillars that you teach in your free content. Like you literally could watch and what is, there's one going on this, you know, timestamped now, but isn't there a way to get that content now?Kelly:Yeah, I mean anybody who wants to get in the tribe, the next one we're doing and just a couple of weeks. I mean, we do it every couple of weeks. So, you know, anybody that wants to go through that free journey and then they can come to you to help them customize that content. Right? How does this work in network marketing? Right?Beth:Right. So, it's the tribe of Unstoppables, and Kelly and I just chatted before we started is, I'm already shifting. I have the 25 women that are going through the Profit Her Way program. Now we are going to live launch every single one of them, test it, see it for either opportunity, because I have a big travel group in there, so we just literally just wrote up the travel. We have a lot of health and wellness and so I'm so excited. Because my brain, I've started since working with you, every time someone is talking, I'll think, oh they should live launch that. Oh, they should…Kelly:It's so funny, because now I get phone calls and texts and pictures and messages from people like every day saying like I just told this person they need a live launch. Look for them. I just told this person I need to live lunch because everyone's just realizing like Holy crap, we've been doing it the hard way. Like the tools are there for all of us. You know what I mean?Beth:The tools are there and what I love is, I watched it the first round. This is, you might not know this. I watched it the first round and then didn't jump in to really digging in and learning. And then finally it was, and this is the big piece that sets you apart besides just personable, valuable content that works by the connection, is the accountability piece, is I have someone in my inbox saying, Hey, Beth let's chat. How's it going with your live launch? Let's do this. Not just a cheerleader. I mean she cheers for me every day, but accountability, and that is a big piece that is missing and the network marketing space. So, where did you come up with this idea, that Oh, people will sign up and pay for my program and they're going to be assigned an accountability coach?Kelly:Yeah, I mean we want the Unstoppable Entrepreneur to be the best business incubator on the planet. Like I literally wake up every morning and I asked myself, how do I make this the Harvard of online business money-making? You know, I think everybody deserves to be able to have the freedom to, you know, put their family first and be financially free. And I've experienced the opposite. And then I've experienced where I am now and all I want to do so badly in my life is just bring people across that finish line, you know? So, what we realized is that it's not just about education, it's not just about information. It's not just about coaching, right? It's a coaching program. It's not just about coaching. It's also about the fact that life happens, right? We all have a lot on our plates. We all have families and other obligations.Some people work a full-time job and they're building a business. Some people are running two companies, right? You can be caring for a sick parent. You have kids at home, whatever it is. And so, we realized that if we weren't dedicated to being in your face and in your inbox saying, Hey Beth, I haven't heard from you in a week and a half, are you okay? What's going on? You know, your live launch is coming up, you know, let's make sure things are okay. Let's get you on a hot seat. It's been a while. Whatever it is. We want to make sure that that commitment on our side is as high as we expect the commitment on your side to be. And I feel like that's a lot of what's lacking in the online world. And so instead of complaining about it, we're trying to be the change that we feel will be the catalyst and making a bigger difference for people.Beth:I love it. And that was huge for me, was even doing it before the first of the year, which is exciting because now we're going to take that even further and help these women too. And one man, it's Profit Her Way. But I had to say Profit Her/His Way. We had to vote him on the Island, and he made it. So, when you think about how your life looks now, because I am all about preaching that we have to block time in our calendar for joy, for self-care, for time with our kids. Because I didn't do that in the beginning. I was literally burning the candle from both ends missing really, really, really big events. And one day I read something that said, you want your husband, your kids to remember you as holding your phone or holding their hand? So, I preach be wherever your feet are, your multimillion-dollar entrepreneur who is so, so everybody knows Kelly Roach. But the thing that I love most about you, you do not have the hustle grind mentality. So, can you talk a little bit about that shift?Kelly:Yeah, definitely. I mean I think coming from fortune 500 I've already experienced that burnout. I always say I feel like I lived a whole life in my twenties before I moved over, because I had such a high level of responsibility that I learned so much so quickly, and I feel like that really informed my decisions and my path when I started in the entrepreneurial world. And I joke all the time because people will be like, Oh my gosh, Kelly, you worked so hard all the time. Do you ever take a break? Do you ever take a vacation? I'm like, yes. I take seven vacations a year with my family. I take off on Fridays in the summer I'm at the pool. I feel like the difference between me and every other online entrepreneur is I don't pretend to take a vacation so that I can have a photo op and be working so that I can show that I took a vacation.When I go on vacation, I'm not on my phone, my phone is off. It is locked in the safe for the week. I am present, I am with my family. And I think that's so important, right? You have to have that downtime. You know, I go out to dinner with my family at night and I'll leave my phone at home on purpose, because I know I run two companies. If the phone is with me, there's someone that needs me, but if it's not with me it will be there, you know, when I get back. So, I think just being really intentional, we have one vessel, one body. I woke up at five this morning, I did not want to work out and I was down there doing my little workout video, you know, getting ready for the day because I knew I'm going to be going hard and going straight through for you know, 10, 15 hours.But it's those really conscious decisions about, you know, what do you want your life to look like? And I know for me, I want to make sure that when Madison is like graduating high school, going into college, getting married, like I want to be in great physical form. I want to be in really good energy. I want to be in a healthy mental state. And so, I'm thinking 15 years, Madison’s five, just for everybody. You know, I'm thinking five and 15 years down the road, and I'm making my decisions today based on the person that I want to be when that time comes. And I think it's really important that as entrepreneurs we're thinking that way because it will take everything from you, entrepreneurship and building a business, because you care so deeply, because it is your passion. It will take everything that you give. So, unless you learn to set real hard boundaries for yourself and have a high level of discipline around that, you will always succumb to that. So, it's a learning that I think we all go through. But I think it's one of the most important things that you can learn as an entrepreneur, because your energy is everything, right? And you can't fake energy. Like you can try to show up in a certain way. People see right through it.Beth:It's that whole vibration they sense the energy. So, I always like to end the podcast with one question and you guys, I gave her no pregame session here. So, everything like, learning that travel piece hot seat is, and this is the piece that is a big mystery for many. And I know that you work so hard and you help us so much, with not only the strategies, the tools, but also what really has to happen between desire, belief and commitment. So, many of the people invest in your program and you will see some do $100,000 launch and some just not take that action. It's just always something. They have the desire. At one point they had the belief, what separates the people that in network marketing, I see it too. I'm all in. I'm all in. And there are some that do and some that don't. What is your belief about that?Kelly:Yeah. And it's so tough. I mean, we could do a whole show on this, but I'll give you a couple things. You know, number one, it's total ownership, right? You either believe that everything is happening to you or you believe that everything's happening for you. Amen. And that is it. Period. End of story. I mean, I am in an of the belief that we are wholly and completely responsible for everything that is or isn't in our lives. And the actions that we take every single day are the outcomes that we create, right? And I think when you have that mindset, you couldn't possibly not get up in the morning. And do the work because everything is possible, but also everything is, is up for grabs. Like you, you can't expect it if you aren't working. Right? So, I think that that ownership piece is huge.But I think the second piece is people that are called to something bigger than themselves, right? Because I think that it's enough to drive short term behaviors when you want to, you know, get the next payday, you want to get the next client, you want to, you know, pay your mortgage for the month. Like that's one thing, right? And, there is a hierarchy of needs. Like we all start down at the bottom of the hierarchy. But to show up consistently every single day, you have to be fighting for something bigger than yourself. Whether it's your family, whether it's your legacy, whether it's the people that you want to impact, the causes that you care about, you know, whatever it is, there has to be something bigger than you that you're working towards and fighting for. And that way on the days when you don't feel like showing up and the days where you don't feel good or you don't want to get on camera or whatever it is, you have something that's like, now you got to keep going, right?There's something you're doing it for. So, you know, it's always so cliché because people always say you have to find your why, and like I hate that advice because I feel like it gets twisted and manipulated a lot. But at the end of the day, you do need to know that why? Like my family is my everything, right? Like I make every decision with family first. And so, like when I got up this morning and I was thinking about working out, I wasn't thinking about myself. I was thinking about how am I going to feel after working for 10 hours when Madison gets home from school today and what person am I going to be? And I know I'm going to be a better, happier version of myself if I work out this morning. Right? So, it's like something bigger than you even in the little thing.Beth:I love that. I love that. And it wasn't until that I pushed the beyond, that the money piece, the financial freedom and knowing what foundation I wanted to build, and what my bigger mission and larger mission and we'll, we're going to add yours in the show notes so people can read about the work that you're doing. That's way beyond how much, you know, being a multimillion-dollar entrepreneur. We'll add that for people to see. And also, one more time, because you have so much free content that network marketers can apply to, and we're going to rewrite it for you guys. Don't worry. It's coming. We're going to rewrite how you can look at your recruiting, how you can look at your product sales using the live launch method. I've just decided, I'm like looking at my blank whiteboard. It's going there. And so, explain again how to find you, how to find the unstoppable entrepreneurs. Well, it's the tribe of Unstoppables that is the free group, right?Kelly:Definitely. So, yeah, I mean, you guys can just go onto Facebook and search Tribal Unstoppables, we usually run the free workshop like once every six weeks. My recommendation for everyone listening is come through our next round and then immediately go to Beth and be like, help me make this work for network marketing. Right? And I think if you bring those two things together, and I know with what Beth has up her sleeve, she's going to be changing the face of how you guys launch. So, I'm very excited to see where that goes and where you arrive. But yeah, of course we would welcome anyone into the tribe. And you know, I'm excited, I think there's a massive opportunity for, you know, I always say, I know we're wrapping up, but I just want to make one comment before we wrap. I always say that if kids, as soon as they became a working age, were educated about the opportunity of network marketing, we'd have no homeless people. We'd not have no jobless people, we'd have no one that is graduating college with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. The opportunity in network marketing is unbelievable. And kudos to all of you guys that are listening to the show. They're taking that and bringing it out into the world because it really can change so many lives and makes such a huge difference for people.Beth:I love, I love that. And I always say too, it's the best training to become an entrepreneur because you get to learn about building community culture, marketing lives, money, though the energy…we have so many topics. We're going to have to have a part two.Kelly:I know…We'll have to set that up.Beth:So as soon as we get the live launch, I've got three that I think that we can get that ready to go. I'm going to check back with you because we could do some really fun things together on helping network marketers with that live launch method. So, I'm excited. Thank you, Kelly, for being on today.Kelly:Thank you so much for having me.Beth:Well that's a wrap and thank you so much for being with us today! Is Kelly not the most extraordinary human? I love hearing her speak. I wish I could just stay with her all day and climb inside of that brilliant brain of hers. So what we talked about today in the live launch method; using it to grow your network marketing business. This is one of our big pieces, our big modules and Profit Her Way, which is teaching you to build a business you love, that doesn't steal all of your time and joy, but gives you your own marketing, your own profit plan. This is my six month mastermind and doors are open. If you want more information, please go to bethholdengraves.com/profit. Thanks so much for being with us today, and as always be you bravely.Thanks so much for hanging with me today on the podcast and remember, you can create what you crave. If you're looking for a supportive sisterhood, I would love to see you over in our free Facebook group. As most of you know, I love camp. It's part of, 'You're Not the Boss of Me' because when we're building this thing, we're doing this thing. We need a supportive sisterhood and I also crave more fun and more connection. Join us at camp over in the Facebook world, thecampelevategroup.com or just click on the link above and we will see you around our campfire and help you to create what you crave.  

In this week's episode, I interview Kelly Buck, a Dunstan Baby Language Educator and doula. She talks about the Dunstan Baby Language program and how it gives us a window into the first communicative interactions between baby and caregiver. From birth, babies make sounds that are reflex-based. When we understand what these sounds mean, we can respond to and interact with babies more confidently and effectively.   TRANSCRIPT: Sara: Hi, welcome to the Birth Words podcast. Today, I'm chatting with my friend and fellow doula Kelly Buck. Kelly is also a Dunstan Baby Language educator. And today on the podcast, I'm going to ask her more about the work she does with Dunstan Baby Language. So hi, Kelly, welcome to the podcast. Kelly: Hi, thank you for having me. Sara: It's great to have you. I'm going to just ask you a bit about your background with Dunstan Baby Language and the work that you're doing with that. So I'll jump into my first question. Kelly: Okay, sure! Sara: Great. So how did you find out about Dunstan Baby Language? Kelly: So, I learned about the program in 2008 when I had just given birth to my oldest. Sara: Oh, good. Kelly: Yes. And I was one of the rare cases of postpartum depression that happens almost immediately. Yeah, we’re talking, I was bawling in the recovery room. So and add to that, that my son was actually really colicky. And he had a lot of trouble latching. And I was just kind of like an emotional wreck. So, one day I was kind of I was on the phone with my mom. And she mentioned that she had seen the episode, an episode of Oprah where there was this lady that said she could understand why babies cry and I was like, okay, maybe I will look this up. Sara: Yeah. Kelly: Yeah. So that led me to looking up the video on YouTube and learning more about Patricia Dunstan and her programs. So at the time, you could only order the program online for DVDs. And so I did. And I'm telling you, it was a game changer for me. It was amazing. My husband and I both listened to it and we were just like this is… this is working! We tried it with with our son and he seemed to calm down. I still had a little bit of the depression, but I felt like I could at least care for my son, you know, do what he needed. So that I could, I could do that. And so I started like lending out all my DVDs telling my friends who were pregnant or who just had babies and I guess you could kind of say that new learning about Dunstan Baby Language actually kind of sort of paved the way for me to becoming a doula because I love talking about birth and babies and how just how much it did for me, specifically for my postpartum depression. So, so yeah, that's how I got my start. And then I, I went on to become a doula and then later on, I was thinking okay, what can I offer to my clients? What can I do and then I, I went online and lo and behold, you could certify to be an instructor. So I did, and I was like this is this it! And yeah, so I'm about six months into being an instructor and I love it. It's an awesome program. Sara: So sounds awesome. Kelly and I were chatting before we press record about how I was not as fortunate as Kelly that I didn't find out about Dunstan Baby Language until after one of my clients introduced me to it. And I had three kids that were well beyond the baby language stage. So I'm glad that you found that at a fortuitous moment for you and I'm sure all the friends that you shared it with, were glad, too. And now all your clients that you can share, but with your formal training, that's awesome. So, can you give an overview of just the premise of the program, like the main points that it operates on? Kelly: Absolutely. So the main points of the program are that infants are automatically born with certain reflexes that they are using to kind of communicate with us. And they've kind of boiled it down to five specific sounds that all newborns make. And again, like I said, they're based on reflexes that are happening in the body. And when you add sound to those you get these Dunstan baby words that can help parents understand what their baby needs. It's really a program all about helping families bond and bond from an early, age. Sara: That's huge. And it's true for whatever language the baby goes on, is exposed to and goes on to acquire Is that correct? Kelly: Absolutely. They have done studies with over—their first study was with over 400 mothers and parents and babies and they all found that whatever language they spoke these babies still made the same sounds. And so and also it applies to even autistic children. I can attest with my oldest who's autistic—he still made the sounds even though he has difficulty communicating. But I honestly believe that because I was able to respond to his needs so quickly that it might have helped a little bit with that. I can't say specifically or scientifically, but that's just my opinion, because he is high functioning and is able to speak. So… Sara: But that makes a big difference like you said before with bonding and with him recognizing that he has needs that he can express and that you can respond to them because you know what they are. That's huge, and I feel like so many young parents with little babies making sound that have no idea what they're saying, just feel this frustration. And it affects the bond that can happen when you can't communicate with your child. Kelly: Right, right. And I just think about those parents who are like, what happens now after the hospital doors closed, you know? And if I can give them these tools to say, okay, you don't have to feel that sense of kind of dread as what you do now that you can go home and be confident and in your ability to be a good parent. Sara: That's huge. Cool. So I have another question for you. That's a little long, but… So in one of my classes, we were talking about language acquisition—first language acquisition—and I read an article about how older babies are, “learning how to mean,” meaning that they're exploring with language and how they're able to communicate their needs and ideas with others through it. But as I was reading it, I felt like the author wasn't giving really young babies enough credit. He claimed that it was past six months, past nine months, even, that babies realized that they can learn how to mean. But I want to hear your opinion, when do you think that infants begin attempting to meaningfully communicate and what avenues do they use? Kelly: So, like I said, our philosophy is that infants are, are kind of unconsciously communicating from day one. And again, it starts off on these basic, these very primal reflexes, but they're finding that if parents respond to the sounds that our babies, babies are making, that they… They're finding that if, if are not responded to the sound, usually about after three months, they kind of stopped making the sound. But they found that if parents are responding with the sounds and with these words that babies will kind of learn to associate that, and keep on making these sounds well past three months. It honestly, I believe it. It's my belief that, that it's helping babies communicate earlier. It's helping babies learn how to trust earlier. Because they know that their needs are being met. And so they're, they're calmer. So, yeah, does that does answer your question? Sara: Totally. And that makes a lot of sense to me because like you said, initially, it's a physiological reflex-based, like not a conscious attempt to communicate. But when you realize that, hey, when I make this sound like I am communicating this message with my parents or other caregivers, then that invites communication earlier. I think that's great. I think that makes a lot ofsense. Kelly: Yeah. And and it also kind of dispels the belief that that babies are manipulating you. Because young babies actually can't. They don't… Sara: Right. Kelly: It’s not like they consciously choose at two or three weeks to, you know, be colicky, they don't choose these things. So it's, it's your understanding that changes your whole perspective. Sara: I think that's a really good point because we kind of thrust our perspective upon a baby like, oh, they're manipulating me. If you sat down with somebody who said that, they probably realize that didn't actually literally mean that they felt that their baby had the ability to like, recognize their desires and then thwart them by doing something different, right? Like toddlers, we know they do that, right? But little tiny babies, right? But if you shift the perspective and say, okay, where is the baby coming from and what cues is the baby responding to and what physiological things are going on? When we shift our perspective instead of putting our perspective upon our babies makes a really big difference. Kelly: Yeah, exactly. Sara: You're totally selling me. I love it. My next question I've kind of touched on before so if you don't have anything else to add, that's fine. But how has your work as a Dunstan Baby Language educator influenced your personal experiences, and then the work you do as a doula?   Kelly: Um, it To be honest, I love it so much. So sometimes it's hard to hold back, especially here in Utah, with so many women who are pregnant and then like.. YOU NEED THIS! But I hold back. And oftentimes, they'll be, I'll be in church or something and there’ll be a baby crying and I'm like, “I think that baby needs to burp.” But, you know, I just I can't just go up and say that to somebody. But there have been times where like, I've had family members who've had babies and, and I've listened to them and I'm like, “I think that baby is kind of gassy” and she's like, “No, she just pooped” or something. I'm like, “well, try this or try doing this…” And sure enough, 30 minutes later, the baby will pass gas again or, you know, if they, they'll be like, the baby will be hungry. And they're like, “Oh, they just ate” and I'm like, “no, they're still hungry.” So yeah, they'll latch right on. So, but I, I just I love being able to offer this to women to, again to just be able to build that family bond. And the other thing that I love about is that we focus a lot on the dad. And we… my husband was actually much better at hearing the sounds in my son that I was and it is kind of forced me to stop and listen to him and trust his instincts and improve my communication with him. I know a lot of times, moms are hesitant to, I guess leave their baby with her husband or something like that because they feel like they have to do everything. But couples who learn this are kind of able to let that go and say, “Okay, my husband knows what to do.” And a lot of dads will come in and be like, “I feel so good because I know what to do.” Sara: Awesome. Kelly: So yeah, I love that family bonding. Sara: Yeah! And empowering for for both parents. Because it can be disempowering for a mother to feel like I am the sole provider for my baby physically, emotionally… Especially a breastfeeding mom who has literally… her body is producing all of its food and then feeling like its emotional needs can only be met through her, that can be disempowering for her. And it's great that you can flip it and empower for the husband as well for everybody to work together as a team. And even outside of that, you know, if you have other caregivers or grandparents or partner, whoever is helping to care, that's huge. Kelly: Absolutely. This isn't just for for new parents. It’s or anybody who's working with newborns, just to be able to improve their confidence and their skills. So yeah, I tell I tell my clients all the time that if grandma is watching baby then teach them these sounds so that she can respond quicker. But yeah, I love empowering the dad. That was my that's kind of why I do doula work as well. It's fun to see the dads in the birth room and see them transform into fathers. So giving them another tool is just, it's just a great opportunity. Sara: So that's huge. Okay, you've totally sold me. I'm going to talk with you more and more about this and send my clients to you to take your classes and all of this. I think this is important work that you're doing. And I have two quick questions for you to wrap up. One is if you had to choose just one word to describe your views about birth and the surrounding perinatal period, what word would it be? Kelly: life-changing? Is that one word? Sara: Oh yeah, just stick a hyphen in there—totally one word. Kelly: And no matter how your birth goes it's definitely going to permanently affect you and in whatever way, it's something that always stays with you. You can ask any person who's given birth. If any person has given birth, they may not be able to remember what they ate yesterday, but I guarantee you they can tell you every single detail of their birth and their story. Sara: Great. Life-changing. I love it. And I feel like that applies, too, to the work you're doing with the Dunstan Baby Language that could be life-changing. Kelly: Thank you. Sara: My last question is, how can listeners follow you on social media or your website? How can they connect with you? Kelly: Absolutely. So my website is shebirthservices.com, and you can follow me on Facebook at SHE Birth Services. And Instagram is the same thing: SHE Birth Services. So I’d love for anybody who wants to come and take a class. You're welcome to. Sara: Great. Thank you so much Kelly. It was great to have you. Kelly: Oh, thank you.   Outro: Did words play an important role in your birth experience? If you're interested in sharing your story on the podcast, go to www.birthwords.com. If you're liking what you hear on the podcast, please leave a review on your podcast app. For more resources about harnessing the power of words to benefit the birth experience, visit birthwords.com   Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Remember that one game that despite how terrible it looked was one of your all time favs? How bout those games as beautiful as can be, yet somehow flaming trash heaps in gameplay. This episode we give our personal picks for best of the worst, and the worst of the best. Episode Transcription: The below is a machine based transcription of this episode. Sorta like Skynet if it was 2 years old, and wanted a cookie. Take it with a grain of salt. Jake 0:01 Episode 10 the good, the bad, and the ugly Today onWulff 0:07 peskiGP 0:28 Hello and welcome everyone to press B to cancel. My name is Guy friend. And with me today we have our usual days of rapscallions to my left is where we'll say hello werewolf. Hello werewolfGP 0:44 aptGP 0:47 also with me today sick JakeJake 0:49 here buddy glad to be hereGP 0:52 and of course, Polish 109Palsh 0:56 Whatever happened to polish runaway nevermindWulff 1:00 Yeah, we had to let him go.Palsh 1:03 Yeah, aGP 1:05 lot of turnover in the police departments, there can be only one. There can be only at pulse post is the equivalent title to Highlander if you're Canadian.Jake 1:16 Alright, so that's a worldwide sensation. I'm sorry, everybody in every country loves Highlander.GP 1:22 That's true. That's true. Okay. Alright, so today, we're going to be discussing kind of a variety. It's a little bit of a different show tonight. Typically, we just take one game or one series, and we discuss our experiences, our likes or dislikes. Tonight, we're going a little bit different. The title of the episode tentatively was called the good, the bad and the ugly. If you don't know what fugly means, have one of your ugly friends explain it to you. So essentially, the idea of this episode is that we can all acknowledge the great Games, they look good, they play good, the sound is great. And we can all acknowledge the crap games, they look horrible. They sound horrible. There are no redeeming qualities. So tonight we're discussing the ones the games in between games that either look gorgeous, but are otherwise devoid of anything meaningful. We will call those Travolta's or the ugly games that have a lot of heart. We're going to call those quasi motos. Okay, so those are the two categories today. I'm going to start us off and then we'll discuss and you know, go around the table as we always do, but we're going to start off with the ugly but great or quasi modo category. And I tell you what, guys, let's just go through different video game systems. We'll start with the eight minute video games. For me it's any s, which is going to be Bionic Commando. Okay, so I love this game. I played it on stream recently, and I'm always reminded about how much I love it but truly Fully the color palette is obnoxious. There's not the greatest animations between your character or the bad guys that you're trying to kill. And it's repetitive as hell. So that's kind of the idea here. Let's talk about Bionic Commando. And if you guys agree, let me know if you disagree. Let's have that conversation. werewolf. What do you think?Wulff 3:20 You know, I've actually not played a lot of Bionic Commando. I think the last time I played it was, gosh, I was seven years old. So almost 30 years ago. Good grief. So I can't say much to it. But I can say that from what I've seen people play on Twitter recently. It's not a pretty game. But I do see a lot of people playing it on Twitter recently. So that must be some somewhat test some testament to its quality.GP 3:51 Sure, yeah. Okay, so it's a popular enough game. It's not always the best to look. So if you're going to watch Bionic CommandoUnknown Speaker 4:00 A beer to firstGP 4:02 beer or do you first gotJake 4:04 Yep. enhancerGP 4:07 Okay, sick Jake. Paul What do you guys think about Bionic Commando?Palsh 4:12 We go I'm sick regoing sick Paul shirt Jake 109 Who's going first?Unknown Speaker 4:18 we merge together we are oneGP 4:21 yeah give us that sexy fusion voice yeahWulff 4:23 that trunks fusion voiceGP 4:31 Alright, so I guess we'll go with Jake first.Jake 4:34 What do you think about Bionic Commando supplying commando? I played this quite a bit as a kid. I'm just trying to struggle how much variety was there in the enemy'sGP 4:45 will as far as the enemy sprite goes? All of your entry level guys are pretty much the same. They were maybe one or two like older throwers or you know rocket launcher guys, but otherwise Yeah, all the same.Jake 4:56 Yeah, like none of them stand out to me. In hindsight when I kind of Going back to that game, I don't remember anything notable graphic wise, I remember that. I remember the back color palette like you mentioned, for sure. It's poor choice. They're all they really remember but graphics is the main character. As a kid, I thought he's got a doc rip off with that weird mechanical arm. That's all I got from the game graphic wise. Nothing memorable at all. I didn't care for Gameplay wise, it was actually quite fun. I mean, mechanics were solid.GP 5:27 Right? Yeah. And I think that's exactly right. I think the biggest mechanic or the biggest saving grace of this game would be the mechanics, no jumping, just extendo arm. And also I to me, I love the sound. This is for me one of the rare games where the not just the soundtrack. But the the, the noises of the game. Were so perfect. And for me they invoke such a strong nostalgia, but I mean yeah, that's I think that's exactly kind of the heart of what the category is. So post, what do you think about commandoPalsh 6:01 I, it's pretty much the same as Jake is like, I don't remember a lot. But the things I do remember that kind of stuck in my brain like I remember not being able to jump and always wanting to swing like Spider Man basically, ever since now I was like, Yeah, I want to do this I remember playing the game and I think this is so cool. But I never thought it was amazingly good luck and I just thought that was the coolest idea. So I think sure yet looks was no, but you know, gameplay was I thought it was fun. So I agree with you.GP 6:36 It's got that heart that addictive quality that after you leave the game, like if you haven't beaten it, you know you're wanting to go back and continue or you know, just pick up where you left off. Yeah. Now I'll say this. I don't have this for every category, but the eight bit ugly but great category. I have an alternate or an honorable mention. And I'll say this real quick, Final Fantasy the riginal a bit Final Fantasy not a pretty game, but damn it was amazing. I no no no you guys know I love Final Fantasy. And it was great for what it was and what it sparked. But going back it is it is dated.Wulff 7:16 Yeah those those tiny backgrounds and battle with just four characters in a box and a little background and then the rest of its blackGP 7:27 it's it's a sexy older sister, I guess technically the sexy younger sister of Oregon Trail,Jake 7:34 which,Wulff 7:35 I mean, the game was based on d&d, so it was leaps and bounds from pen and paper numbers, but they still hadn't found their visual groove yet by any means.Jake 7:51 Of course, but the enemy sprites and the boss sprites that game were extremely detailed and there's a lot of variety and the monsters you face because I thought about This game is well for my list. I didn't do it because of the variety of monsters on the graphics, the sprites.GP 8:05 Yeah. Okay. See, I could definitely concede to that. But you know, to the point of it was inspired by or trying to invoke d&d as a great point because d&d requires a lot of good imagination to fill in the gaps visually and I think that is the point to Final Fantasy that I'm trying to make is there's some cool ideas there. But with the limited motion and animation you really have to use your you know, theater of the mind as it were to to fill in those those gaps.Palsh 8:37 That's pixel or a nutshell for me, so I agree. But you can get some effing cool pixel art that said, Okay,GP 8:45 I don't know No, no, that's good. Actually polish. Let's go to your what's your quasi modo game, the uglyPalsh 8:52 but great game, this one stuck out to me and just because it I was felt like it looked like an entire game to me. Kind of That meant that made it with an any s game and it still had kind of elements of mostly Atari boys blob, because the graphics were really great. But the whole premise this game was hard, I still won't touch it because I'm just I don't have the fear of failure. But the fact that you could, you know, give them like 40 different jellybeans and have all these different things like you could turn your blog into a trampoline or a ladder or a friggin rocket you know, it's it's really cool but the graphics didn't keep up but I thought considering how ugly it was it still was pretty fun. And so that's that's just what stuck out for me.GP 9:44 Yeah, I I own a boy and his blog and I have started a boy this blob but I think the graphics and I hate to say it this way because it makes me sound so shallow. But I think the graphics is prevented me from really getting into it. So I think that It's a bit of a home run for choice there. But I can't speak to the greatness of the game just to the just to the ugliness as far as the sprite quality. And you know the image quality in general. Yeah, everything isWulff 10:15 the design choices as far as the characters, they're very ugly. Yeah, there's not a lot of detail. However, they're really smoothly animated for how ugly they are, which I always found kind of odd.Palsh 10:28 Yeah, and I think that's part of it, too, because they ended up it was so simplistic. I think they ended up getting a little bit more leeway when it came to animating them.Wulff 10:37 Yeah, but yeah, that that game is definitely a favorite of mine. I had that growing up. I don't know what happened to my copy. I don't remember getting rid of it. But I don't know if it got lost in a movie or I did eventually trade it in or something. That is a game I put far too many hours into as a child. Oh my goodness. Like, I can probably still remember What most of the jelly beans do. That's how much I played it. Catch up a catch a pole.Palsh 11:07 Yes.Wulff 11:09 That is licorice ladder root beer rocket.GP 11:13 I had a root beer rocket oneJake 11:17 I think I agree with GP on the terms of the graphics is what probably turned me off in the game as well. I didn't really finish it. I spent I made it to the offworld section and that was interesting. But you spend majority of your time on the ground and there's such a limited palette of colors down there. It's all brown and black. I found it extremely dull.Wulff 11:36 Yeah, they're their color choices definitely reflected what they went back to in the early 2000s just with less bloom. Right? Yeah.GP 11:44 Well, Jake, what What game do you have for us? Ugly but lovable for the eight bit?Jake 11:52 I mean, I mean, some guys know me. If I'm not complaining about a game on I don't like it. And they'll go on game I complain about all the time is our type for the master system this game is brutally hard for me. It took me forever to beat it and I had to use a continue code to do it. It's great The gameplay is classic to me the bosses are awesome. There's also mechanic where if you don't be the boss is fast enough to take away from you. There's you know, upgrades. It's a great game, poured it on literally everything. But the matches is the one is the one I played the most. But the thing that makes it ugly is there slow down constantly, there's flickering every other level. There's one level I want to say it's the third one where the background is this organic, pulsing like red color. But that's fine, but the enemy shots are also red. So because of the poor choice and colors of the background, the enemy bullets, you can't see where the bullets are half the time in addition to all the flickering. So like the graphics are just terrible, terrible. I've seen this game in arcades and it looks 10 times better. It's a shame because it's a fantastic game gameplay. It's plays well for me in any system. I know of the Master System and I love it there but the graphics on that system just can't keep up.GP 13:06 Gotcha. Okay, so I hear you saying that you've only beaten it with the continue code. So what you mean is you've never beaten it. Little bit of shady games each otherGP 13:30 sick burger.GP 13:33 Wolf, what do you got for us for ugly URL now? I'm sorry. Let's not do that yet. A portion where what do you guys think about our day?Wulff 13:40 Um, I've never been a fan of shoot 'em ups and bullet hills. So our type was one I didn't really get into. TheyPalsh 13:49 kind of blend together for me. Not that I'm saying it was a bad game or anything, but I can't tell the difference between archetype and Gradius. And anybody who's a shoot 'em up fan right? I was probably wanting to strangle me so I apologize but either way, honestly, you're not wrong. There are very few shooters that pull me in.GP 14:09 Yeah, I'm with you. I think the only one that really stood out for me was like life force. And that's that's really the only one I paid attention to. I'm kinda like you guys with that so I will have to take sick Jake's word on this one. Yeah, but I believe especially I mean, yeah, I've never heard of anything like that where the bullets are the same color as the background. Obviously that is a horrible designWulff 14:35 that's that's a controllers are are right there.GP 14:38 Yeah.Palsh 14:39 It ends up being any s heard.Jake 14:42 It belongs in any as hard but different system.Palsh 14:44 Yeah. Gotcha. Master Cisco. doesn't have the same ring to it.GP 14:49 doesn't roll off the tongue as much. Yeah.Wulff 14:53 Alright, so what do you got for us on your quasi game, the game that everybody is familiar with. The Ninja for Master System but this game, the gameplay is an absolute blast. You're running around you're throwing jerkins at people you get upgrades to your stuff like movement upgrades, weapon upgrades, special attacks, all sorts of crap the enemies there's all sorts of enemy types they have different a eyes the levels get mixed up summer like a lot of them are just you know, go from the bottom scroll upward. Occasionally it's like scroll from right to left but they've got like the river level where you're trying to move from log to log and kill enemies before they get you stuff like that. They did a lot of creative things with the game, but boy did it not look good at all. There were a lot of sprites and they were a lot of ugly pixels. That the colors like they use really bright colors, their eye catching colors. But there's so much of one color that covers the screen at a time that it just it fries your eyeballs a little bit. That that bright neon green grass.Palsh 16:11 Yeah, everything looks green afterwards. It's like you're wearing you must be wearing like some like tinted sunglasses afterwardsWulff 16:19 Yeah, there's there's almost there's really very little detail on any of the locations in the game. You got to use your imagination a lot. But that game is so much fun. And it's it's a hard one. So it's one of those ones that's like punishing and you want to go back.Palsh 16:38 I didn't even know that was for Master System. The first time I actually played was on like a bootleg 31 and one NAS card and I had no idea that this is bootleg up until like, a few years ago so I was like, This is amazing. Oh, nevermind.Jake 16:53 Spiders in that you also picked a Master System game. Do you think it's something to do with that system and that just couldn't put out The solid graphic power to handle those games because there's a few other games that are also not that great graphic wasWulff 17:05 no because there are some actually really pretty Master System games to the the Master System graphically had superior capabilities to the ns but you have to remember they were a lot more companies pumping games out on the IDS it's like it's it was the platform that was supported versus the platform that wasn't it doesn't matter how much power it has if people don't know how to make use of it.Jake 17:30 Like I'm just thinking of the Sonic games, and some of them are really terrible. The slowdown is ridiculous lots of flickering like it is. It's disappointing because there aren't great games on the system is one of my favorite systems.Wulff 17:41 Well the Master System. The Master System is just a Game Gear. It's it's a Game Gear Fit to TV resolution, or rather, at the Game Gear is a Master System fit to a smaller resolution. They're they're the exact same architecture. That's why all the emulators run both of them.Jake 18:00 Interesting. Okay,GP 18:01 okay, so that's our that's our time for a bit games. Let's move on to 16 bit if you guys are ready for that, is that good? Sure. Holy cow. Is that that claw?Palsh 18:14 Yeah, we'll call theWulff 18:17 next bitGP 18:22 is one of those rare occasions where I wish I had worn pants now? Well, I'll tell you what wolf blitzer with you 16 bit ugly but great. What do you think and start race effects?Palsh 18:34 Yeah.Wulff 18:36 Not absolutely good. It had a lot of character in the graphics, but it was not pretty at all. The, for whatever reason, I'm pretty sure those What is that? gas. That gas station with the chevron? Pretty sure those Ever on cars were inspired by this game.GP 19:03 Or vice versa. But it's a goodWulff 19:06 Yeah, I've I you know what, they dropped it on the switch this week. And I went back and played it. And I had so much fun with it. Oh my goodness. It was a lot of fun. And I used to play it a lot to player which I mean, you can play two player races against the AI as well. Which is pretty taxing on a Super Nintendo. Which I'm pretty sure that killed the frame rate big time, so it made it even uglier. It was still somehow playable. And it was a lot of fun. I really really enjoyed that one.Jake 19:41 Yeah, I was gonna say the only time I saw framerate that bad post mariokart the switch was after watching stunt racer x like, it's like three FPS. It'sGP 19:52 you know, that brings up I mean, we'll have to see how the rest of the show plays out but I've had in the back of my mind like that. This big question mark of the two categories today, how many sports games or how many racing games ultimately are going to be referenced? So we're going to chuck that down as you know, the first one I suppose for, for racing, but that's, that's interesting to me. I think that's a good pic. Absolutely. But I'm glad you chose that because, well, that was on my short list of like five games. I was so hesitant to pull out as a racing game or a sport themed game. Because those really didn't hit their stride until you know much later. But I like that one pulse. What do you got for usPalsh 20:34 on 16 bit mine is pretty much the 16 bit argument all over again from from a pit I've got a game that was hard that I loved, but the same kind of problem lemmings and I hate saying it because let me look terrible Lamine, but they're, you know, like they're like six pixels each. So you can't really complain too much, but the idea behind it again, was so cool like you could make one guy stop everybody else Another one would start digging and other woman started digging upwards and whatever. So game itself was just great. The music is probably one of the top five for like Super Nintendo for me for for soundtracks. But I just remember and it never bothered me about the graphics I'm just saying it's just that they don't look great.GP 21:26 I tell you what I appreciate here is Forgive me for saying it this way. This shame in your voice when you said lemmings? It's almost like you know, it's 3am I've had a few drinks I'm lonely. I'm going to call lemmings and not tell anybody about it the next day, so I love that See, that's why I love this. This idea for the for the episode. You sneak that Kelly? Yeah, you got me good. No, I love that. I think that's a great choice. And I think we've all done that with either lemmings or a game like lemmings were like ah I just want to want to save my appetite but I'm not proud of it let's let's play lemmingsWulff 22:05 yeah that's good. What do what do you guys think about lemmings? That's actually another game where despite the ugliness of the palette, and you know, the little tiny characters that you can barely make out, they were really smoothly animated and they can eat a lot of information with what 15 pixels.Palsh 22:22 Yeah, that here but what they were doingUnknown Speaker 22:26 that's pretty impressive.Palsh 22:28 Yeah. So they, they definitely went for function over form. And they I think they succeeded. So I mean, that's that's saying, Oh,GP 22:38 yeah, it's, it's a great game. It's that argument again, it's got a great personality.Jake 22:45 Okay, all right. The backgrounds, okay, granted, not all the backgrounds are your hot redhead, okay? But a lot of them look fine to me. There's one I played on the Genesis so 16 bit and the one level or there's couple levels with the forest theme. I thought that looked amazing. And the fact that you could dig through the leaves of the tree and everything looks great to me.Palsh 23:08 Yeah, I can see your point there.Jake 23:10 Plus the intro was funny. I thought the intro was well animated.Palsh 23:13 Yes, true.Jake 23:14 I like six pixels. What are you going to do, right? There's only so much you can do with six weeks one character.Palsh 23:19 And now you see why I feel guilty even saying it because it's like, there's so much charm to this game. And considering what they've done with it. SoGP 23:27 I think it's a great game that conveys exactly what it needed to but you're right. There's not much frill to it outside of like visually, it's not arresting in a positive way.Wulff 23:39 Yeah, it's not something that ever made me stop and look when I saw it on a screen anywhere. But playing it I could not put it down.GP 23:48 Yeah, it's a game you play in your own home. Like if you had gone to Walmart and got on the display, you'd be like not here lemmings. We can know each other but nobody can know I'm going to sound like a jerkPalsh 24:04 Just you wait I'll get you backGP 24:07 okay all right so polished one or nine with lemmings subject. What do you got for us? 16 bitJake 24:14 16 bit So you mentioned earlier about racing games and this is technically a racing game. It's unit racers for the snice Oh man, IPalsh 24:21 forgot about that.Jake 24:22 So I don't know if you guys have played this game before. cyclesPalsh 24:26 Yeah, I was like yeah, just cycles without right.GP 24:29 Yeah, I rememberJake 24:29 Yeah. It's the weirdest concept for a video game I've seen in a while. But I love the hell this game I got it at a US store for like 10 bucks. Graphic wise. Literally you do you guys said it. You're just a unicycle no writer. And the tracks are basically this candy stripe. You know line that loops around and goes left to right. There's not much going on graphic wise but Gameplay wise the tricks system in it. There's like a dozen different tricks you can do with your your bike. You know flips and cartwheels, all kinds of crazy stuff. And you need to do those tricks in order to build speed and momentum. And you kind of get tied up in the different modes. Like some of the modes are focused on doing the stunts, and the ones are about speed. Some are just like, you know, marathon and length. There's a lot of variety, and tracks in the game. The game plays outstanding. The only problem is, it's a lot of them with the same precursor to Tony Hawk'sPalsh 25:23 Pro Skater. And a lot of waysWulff 25:26 Yeah. Now that you mentioned it, yeah, that game did a ton of stuff for being a 2d side on racing game.GP 25:34 Yeah, but I think when you can make the argument that if Marble Madness makes you look like a chump, then Okay, you know, yeah. Well, they might be but you can't tell because there's there's just no way no, no, I think that's a good and you're right, like, that's that's their kind of racing thing as well. So that's, that's interesting. I remember the game I don't remember much of playing it though, but I can see it in my mind. And yeah, I agree. I think that's a good good entry. WhatWulff 26:06 do you guys think? I would agree that that game was not a whole lot to look at, like it was cleanly animated. But there was a is literally, you know, the track is just a candy striped bar on the ground that moves around. And then you're a unicycle no character on the unicycle. You're just a unicycle doing stunts and tricks and jumps and bouncing around and zooming along. So it was it was a limited presentation type of game. I wouldn't sayGP 26:38 yeah, but werewolf the way that you just described it, like the you're a unicycle going around doing tricks and bumps and jumps. I if you said that to me, I would actually I would want to pick that up the way you just presented that actually had me interested. I'm like, Oh shit, maybe I should play this again. It was an absolute blast. It really was. I played the crap out of it. Good. I mean, that's, that's the heart and soul of this, this category, so that's good. I'll jump in now with my 16. But I was torn between two. So I'm going to pick the little, the one that's a little bit more controversial, just because it'll be a better discussion, but I was thinking about doing Starfox but I think we can all agree it did not age well it was not great, but it's a fun game. I know. Jake loves it. But what I'm gonna I'm gonna, what I'm what I'm gonna officially state is the original Mortal Kombat. Now I love most Mortal Kombat. It's, you know, in the series, but if you look at the first Mortal Kombat, and when I first played that I played it around the same time as Street Fighter two. So comparatively Street Fighter two, crisper cleaner, brighter, smoother. And to me Mortal Kombat, though I enjoy it. The first one was very clunky you hear how stressingPalsh 27:56 though I enjoyed, you know, he's he Doing this rightGP 28:00 because I Well, there's there's points coming in later polish. Their Mortal Kombat will make other entries in the future. I you know, starting with Mortal Kombat two, great franchise. And if you look at this disparity between how poorly the first foot looks and plays, compared to MK two, that's kind of the crux of my argument for Mortal Kombat. If they ended the Mortal Kombat series with the first one, it wouldn't have made the list but out of all of it, yes, MK one. Not that great, in my opinion, fun to play, but just pretty ugly.Palsh 28:38 You know, I can get beyond that. I thought it was really cool to see Street Fighter two, and had all the way smoother animations and stuff but I mean, they weren't taking, you know, real life models and trying to digitize them. So the the motions and the animations were so much more fluid because you're working with the cartoon versus real life. So it was fun. Don't get me wrong, but, you know, I thought it looked pretty bad.GP 29:05 Yeah, it's the video game equivalent to spawn the live action movie. Yeah. Yeah, it didn't necessarily look that great. Also, some of the acting was hit or miss. But in the end, there's something about it that I still love. But yeah, well what do you think about that Mortal Kombat? Ugly but great or just a game? What do you think? I thinkWulff 29:25 it's just a game. I was never drawn into Mortal Kombat. Like all my friends were a I mean, I was in the initial rush of it. Yeah, it was like, Oh my gosh, they're just brutally bashing each other's skulls in and there's blood and Oh, man. But at the end of the day, I was still kind of like well, street fighters more fun and prettier. Pen over this. I granted my experience with it was a neighborhood full of kids who had the Genesis so it was even more limited than the Super Nintendo one. So I'm kind of colored by that memory. Everybody I knew had it for Genesis, because of course more blood.GP 30:04 Right? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Jake, how about you?Jake 30:09 I've been I hate disagreeing with you guys on every game. It's not that but Okay, look, you're right Street Fighter is definitely notPalsh 30:16 garbage say it's a game.Jake 30:18 It's not it's not lukewarm garbage at best. Okay? You microwave me onWulff 30:25 the garbage?GP 30:27 If your argument against me here's it's not that bad. OkayUnknown Speaker 30:33 then it's kind of that bad.Jake 30:34 All right. The color palette is a bit limited, I give you that. But the digitized actors was revolutionary and they look pretty good. In fact, I wonder if you compare the frames of animation in Mortal Kombat vs. Street Fighter? I bet you they have the same frames. The only difference is not as colorful. And like you're right when you mentioned later entries, the series that kind of expand on that. Moral Kombat three is one of my favorite fighting games and the color Pelletier is amazing, but just watching Keno. That rapscallion thrusting his fist in somebody's chest and pulling out their beating heart. That looked great. I thought that was hilarious as it was good looking to me at the time. I like to look at the game I also love subzero team some zero I will be for life. I thought the sprites and the characters were well done. all agree Street Fighter looks better, but I think brutal combat is not as bad as you think it is. It's no clay fighter but that way. Okay,Palsh 31:30 basically, Jake feels like Cora when he got punched in the nuts in the first movie.Unknown Speaker 31:36 That's true.GP 31:38 And the rest of us feel like Johnny K. Yeah.Palsh 31:41 hundred dollar glasses, glasses. SoJake 31:45 last all this before or after the discectomy I'm leaving that one.GP 31:50 Yeah, glass, all for the wind. Okay, I like that. Okay, so um, next is going to be the 32 bit category. Let's start with Paul. Tell me Whoa, and let's, let's, let's clarify this. This tier is 3264 bit because we'reWulff 32:05 Yeah, it's the same generationPalsh 32:08 so we can switch it up. Okay. So I'm going to name a game. And I'm going to tell you guys what the game and I want you to tell me if you think that I think it's ugly but amazing, or if I think it's terrible, but beautiful.Palsh 32:22 Okay. Okay.Palsh 32:25 Castlevania Symphony of the Night.Jake 32:31 Okay, if you don't think that's a pretty game, there's something wrong with you.Palsh 32:33 Yeah, that was just trolling. I was hoping. For more.Wulff 32:38 See, I was in on that one. Otherwise, I probably would have laid into pause What the fuck is wrong with you?Palsh 32:46 Know, that one I can't say anything bad about so. That's the joke. So anyways, continue forward.GP 32:54 No, now you have to give us a real game. Yeah, I believe a beautiful 32 or 64 Doom 64 Okay, okay, tell us about that. Why why why do you hate that game so much?Palsh 33:06 It would look great. I remember seeing magazine ads, I remember playing it or not playing it wanting to play it. And then finally I went out on vacation, came back and had a copy of it my hand I was like it was this or Duke Nukem. 64 I was already playing Duke Nukem 64 I was like, okay, so I need something new for me, my friends. So we can just lay into this game. And I tried it. I was like, This looks so cool. And then I realized this, like, this game is crap. I was so disappointed with it. It moved well, like the graphics look great. But it other than that, it just felt like a little bit better version of doom to me like, and I can't play the original Doom anymore or give it headaches just from the motion. So it looked better. But I was disappointed because I thought it was, you know, the 64 and it just meant it was for 64 and I thought it was going to be the actual Doom with better ground. Fix. Now it was completely different. Like they made their own game and I was just I wasn't ready for that disappointment. You've you've given me a bit of a revelation here and agree or disagree but let me know. Would you say no?GP 34:16 Okay, moving on. No. Would you say that video game commercials and box art and descriptions? Were the back in the day preteen equivalent to Tinder profiles.Palsh 34:32 Never thought about it now.GP 34:33 Yeah, they show up and you're so excited because their profile and then they show up and you realize this is not what I thought it was going to bePalsh 34:40 at all. Man, sir.Jake 34:43 Well, you are thirsty and hell.GP 34:46 Oh, God, thirsty for that video game. Yeah.Palsh 34:51 I didn't care about girls back then. I just cared about more video games. Just thinking about that power ofGP 34:57 the power of what was your favorite position back then? 64 cut that out.Jake 35:05 Nope. Three hands on the stick.Palsh 35:08 That's my joke on you need three hands to play an M 64 controller.GP 35:13 Yeah, we saw that name then way nowhere. Okay, so Doom 64. werewolf. What do you what do you think? agree disagree?Wulff 35:22 That's one I don't know much about unfortunately. I thought it was just gonna be Doom for in 64 so I didn't bother with it.Palsh 35:34 PC Okay, shut up.Wulff 35:36 No literally like I thought it was Doom like because I played it on. I think I played it at a friend's house on PC and then I had played it on Super Nintendo. So I was like, well, I played it on a couple of platforms. I don't want to play it again. So I didn't play it for in 64Palsh 35:53 Yeah, well that's that's exactly why I bought it because they'll say Oh, man, like it's a better version. No.GP 35:58 Wrong That's brilliant wrong. Was that Charlie Murphy? Wrong?Wulff 36:05 Or the tigers in Wow, wrong? Yeah.GP 36:10 Okay, but see like how great of a pic was that pulse bought the game because of two words. Doom 64 did not buy that game because of two words. Doom 64 I swipe left soWulff 36:26 hard.Palsh 36:30 Man. I practically hit super like all right.GP 36:35 I don't get that reference. I don't know super late.Palsh 36:38 I'm very single. We'll put it that way.GP 36:44 Okay, so, Jake, what do you do? I'm 64Jake 36:49 I'm actually not a fan of doom. I actually don't like the series at all. Although the recent PC ones that came with the reboots, those are okay but the classic do my never really cared for and there's a series of games on the 60 That kind of tried to bring over to the PC stuff. There's Duke Nukem and hexen. And I think XM XM hex n. That's a word was the better of those type of games that 2d sprites in a 3d world? I didn't care for Doom 64 at all. I did rent it. I played a little bit. I couldn't care for it at all. It is ugly. I'll give you that. I just also think it's a bad game.GP 37:23 Yeah, and I think Doom 64 was one of those games, where I watched my cousins play it. And I loved watching them like I could keep up with it. If I was watching somebody else, but the first time I tried playing it, it was like I completely forgotten what it was like to look at the game and could no longer keep up with it. So I played maybe 30 minutes of it and realize this is not for me to play. But it was entertaining to watch other people run and gun and blow up stuff. So I like it and the visuals are okay so long as I am not guiding the visuals. But that's that's just me say Take what do you ever is for this category? Ugly but great 32 or 64 bit? Okay.Jake 38:07 Hear me you Final Fantasy seven. I love this game.GP 38:11 I think that's a great choice Yeah,Jake 38:13 everybody loves family seven or at least people who were in that generation love probably seven. Today it doesn't hold up for sure I mean the pre rendered backgrounds and in the CGI very pixelated very under rez for today's time but even back in high school I played this game originally, the sprites and the overworld and the exploration areas like cloud looks like some kind of peanuts character mutated into 3d polygon. And there's no textures anywhere to be found any of the enemies practically It is one of the ugliest first gen 3d games I've ever seen. Like I'm talking marrow 64 Meg's father's sevens cloud look like fucking the Mona Lisa. This game is the only reason people like this game. is because of the FMV The video is very cool. And I love that story. I love the music, and the gameplay is fun. But it's ugly as hell.GP 39:09 No, I think I think that's, that may be one of the best because that's exactly right. And I think part of the reason Personally, I was so let down by the graphics is because the commercials that came out back in 97 for the games pretty much only showed the FMV it's the one so your hype for this and you're like, Oh my god, considering the last Final Fantasy with six leaps and bounds and you play it and you're like you said you're just playing to get to the next video. But somewhere somewhere in there you fall in love with it. That's probably like the earliest version of you know, people getting mad because of, you know, not showing gameplay, you know, because that wasn't the practice back then. You know, everybody just played the game because there weren't cutscenes like that. And now it's like the cutscenes look awesome, but let's see what the gameplay looks like you know, so you have gameplay trailers besides you Know the actual trailer? Well yeah, it's the video you ever been catfished by a video game? That's the idea right? The whole dating thing around again? Yeah, I think that's brilliant. I think that's a great observation and that is the cultural and historical significance of the Final Fantasy seven commercials. But if you go back and still because I did this recently if you YouTube the original Final Fantasy seven TV commercials I still get the same feelsJake 40:28 Oh yeah, the atmosphere is amazing and and said jump from snez to PlayStation you just so hyped that the game is going to look amazing and that we all love family six I think of this podcast and just yeah the sprite work and there's great the bosses look I'm awesome. It's graph as graphics are amazing because 2d, so you just really hoping that for the jump to 3d would be something amazing. And what they show you the commercials. Looks great. But that's maybe about 10 minutes of FMV the entire game.Palsh 40:56 YeahWulff 40:58 that's true. Wolfie what do you what do you think? Final Fantasy seven okay I'm probably in the minority here to where I'm not a huge fan of Final Fantasy seven that's not to say I wasn't when it came out I played 200 hours probably in that first go through where I did just about everything I think except killing Ruby weapon I even made a second Knights of the Round soGP 41:25 so I'm hearing you say you never beat Final Fantasy I'm playing I'm playing I'm playingWulff 41:33 now I I even made like I I enjoyed that game so much that time that I even made a friggin anime music video and I am V out of it back in the day with VHS like that was time consuming first I was dedication.GP 41:49 Yeah,Wulff 41:51 I still that's the only one I did. Oh no, that's not true. I did one with Resident Evil as well, but I really enjoyed that game the first time and then every time I've tried to play since I can't put more than like three hours into it before I'm just bored and walk away the game. Like even when I tried to play it a second time back then I was just like, man, I can't. So, to me the game, it hits some notes the first time other than that, I can't agree with that. It's an amazing game. I feel like it's just been overhyped so much. And I think it's also the fact that it wasn't my first Final Fantasy, a lot of people who love it, it was their first Final Fantasy, and that's often the case, but I will agree the game didn't look quite as good as I was hoping. But then I had spent all summer plans so he could n and Wild Arms and compared to Wild Arms. It was damn gorgeous.Palsh 42:47 Wait, you mean it's not pronounced suikodenWulff 42:49 crap? No. But yeah,GP 42:53 it's pronounced Wild Arms thatWulff 42:57 that jump from sprites. It makes It with those backgrounds and everything it even though they weren't pretty polygons by any means for the characters, it was still an exciting change of presentation that let them tell the story in a different way.GP 43:12 And I feel like with Final Fantasy seven they overcorrected the ship when they came out with Final Fantasy eight, with seven, the backgrounds looked more lush and detailed than the characters. And then they came out with eight. And the background was kind of put on the backburner, so they could focus on the sprites and the overworld for the main characters. So at least they paid attention and corrected a lot of people's biggest complaints. But yeah, I think that was a good good entry there. Were all four do you have for us in this category? 32 to 64 bit ugly but lovable Bushido blade? Yeah, we couldn't Bushido blade.Wulff 43:53 I'm not gonna lie. I was kind of a square fanboy back in the PlayStation era. So I was getting all their stuff. Like it I had bought total number one nobody got total number one, but I got Bushido blade and it's it's not what I expected it to be and I had so much fun with it. And my friends and I we would just sit there and play Bushido blade for hours just because the combat it was so intricate for as limited as it was, I mean you injure your opponent, but if you got a killing stab that was it that that match was over with. There was no health bars, it was injury or death. And you can even mess up your opponent by like throwing sand in their fat face like a dirty rapscallion and then taking advantage of it. It it was it was so much fun and even just unlocking it. The the I think it had a couple of hidden characters. It was totally worth it. Just there was a lot of nuance to the game. Play that you don't see in a lot of fighting games.GP 45:03 I'm sitting here I'm trying to remember exactly which one Bushido blade was. So it was it was a fighting game.Wulff 45:09 Yeah, to a degree. It was a weapons fighting game. And I think you actually got to choose between a few weapons to if I remember correctly. Yeah, you're right. What the cover looks like I'm sorry, I'm trying to remember this one is black and white with I think a big big red splatter on it is like a black and white pencil drawing or ink drawing of somebody and then a big red blood splatter bladeGP 45:39 I'm also Yeah, I google image that endure. Yeah, I do remember now. I'm sorry. Thank you.Wulff 45:44 But yeah, the the character models were not pretty that the locations are not very pretty. They weren't even very detailed. It was like one of them was a big courtyard of cherry blossom trees. And it looked like they just copy pasted the same square aware of the arena over and over and over and over the lawn from one end to the other until they got to the opposite wall.Jake 46:05 There was a wonky camera and that came for sure used to zoom way out or like really get really closeWulff 46:11 yeah cuz it let you run away from the your opponent pretty far right? Which of course just made the characters even more unreadable?GP 46:21 Yeah, yeah more obscure. But yeah, I'll be honest that sounds like a piece of crap well done that's not a good entry sick Jake, what do you think about that one?Jake 46:33 I love the game to me. We talked about this before the podcast procedure plays one of my favorite games of the PlayStation because it's not that many I played on that. The combat that one on one combat. I just love how most weapons strikes will like outright kill your opponent if they connect but there's all about the Perry system. And that's pretty unique for its time and there's not many games these days that have that same you know, do or die combat system. But I just love it when you thank you Nick's amazed leg that dropped to the ground. But they weren't dead. They still kept fighting while they're on the floor. I thought was hilarious. I loveWulff 47:07 Yeah, they'll they'll like drag one leg while like trying to walk with the other leg with this horrible limp and it's great.Jake 47:15 It's like Black Knight fight, right? Yeah,Wulff 47:18 you break their arm and it just falls limp. They should have made theGP 47:23 Black Knight like an unlockable character.Jake 47:26 I'll know your polygons off. It's great. I love it.Jake 47:31 The backgrounds I agree are bad. But there was a style to it though. Like the bamboo forest, the cherry blossoms it kind of felt like that martial arts, you know trope that's set up in a deserted field. A courtyard has been cleared away to warriors that battle. It had the style, but yeah, you're right. It did not have the graphic power and the textures to back it out.GP 47:54 And then in the background, you see just the opening scene from Ninja Gaiden taking place.Palsh 48:00 As long as that music from ninja guidance playing I'm down for it. I love that game.GP 48:07 Okay, so Polish What was your? No You got us at the beginning. Sorry I got Castlevania joke. Yes. And the wolf goddess with Bushido blade. Jake What do you got?Jake 48:21 We went seven manGP 48:24 that's right that's how forgettable of a game that is.Wulff 48:28 Bomb.GP 48:30 I know I'm just I'm drinking drinking my haterade tonight No, I The reason I'm selling is because I've got so many honorable mentions for this category for 32 to 64 ultimately, I've settled on one but Metal Gear Solid has not aged well. This is not my These are my my honorable mentions. Such a great game, full of story and a lot of amazing twists and turns, but even playing that way came out. The graphics took me out of it. Mortal Kombat mythology sub zero. The fighting in that I don't know if you guys ever played that the graphics were bad. The fighting style was decent, but the platforming was abysmal, but it was still oddly charming because it's sub zero in an open world type setting. But ultimately, I think I have to settle for ugly but with a lot of heart, Nintendo 60 fours, GoldenEye. It was going to be that or Superman 64. And ultimately, I just don't care enough about Superman 64 so GoldenEye because I love that game. I don't know how much of the actual game or campaign I ever played through. I know I've watched it wire to wire with my older brother, but the four person you know, challenge mode was my entire experience pretty much with the 64 like that and Mario 64 and not much else. But he did great Yeah well but I mean even if you guys ever played like the giant head hack or you know code for golden it came on game was so yes DK mode so incredibly ugly but so much fun and it for me it was one of the first multiplayer you know games like that What do you guys think about golden I polished let's start with you know you summed it upPalsh 50:23 I really can't add to it because it's just I want to say I loved it when it first came out but at the same like for graphics was but I think it was more just how you could shoot people in the crotch and they grab their crops and then fall over dead you know or it would tell you like give you the tally of headshots arm shots leg shots torso other you know other was always the crotch shot so right yeah, but I mean the graphics as much as I want to admit I thought they were amazing. I think it was more the gameplay itself soGP 50:59 no slough Rizzoli. I'm still still playing that from an unfinished game that we started back then. That's impossible. Well, what do you think about GoldenEye? Ah,Wulff 51:11 yeah, a, it didn't have a whole lot of texturing I think the majority of the the texture quality went to the characters faces, but not their models. So the game itself though, was an absolute blast. It wasn't a whole lot to look at, which is probably for the best because it I think it helped it run a little smoother. There were a lot and 64 first person games that made me gave me headaches or made me dizzy, something like that. Man, I spent so many hours in that game with friends after school. We just go to somebody's house and play for like two three hours that day and then do it all over again. The next day. It was crazy.GP 51:54 Well, and it was just good enough of a game to make you want to hate your friends. Oh yeah, only for a short for short amount of time because like you said the next day, you're fine. Or if you were mad at somebody, you were only mad until you shot them in the crotch and then you were squareWulff 52:10 that that Mario Kart 64 games that end your friendship for the day. Yep. And but it's fine tomorrow.Palsh 52:18 Yeah. And then you started all over again with the next match.GP 52:20 Yeah, we should we should set up a multi person. tournament or like cast of if we can figure out a way to do that either like Mario Kart orGP 52:30 golden I think would be a blast. There's a PC version. I think actually, if GoldenEyeWulff 52:34 And isn't it awful?Jake 52:37 Okay, just likeGP 52:42 Okay, cool. So Jacob, what's your take on GoldenEyeJake 52:45 wolf said I pretty much nail on the head with the low character Polly's or low Polly's link character models, the triangle shaped heads, it reminds me of that music video Dire Straits money for nothing. We're just Bismillahi low polygon models and it's just terrible plusses against 64. And hey, I love the system. I love Nintendo but they had the fog problem like the jungle level and the Russian level it just the design to get around the graphic failures. They brought in more fog, just more fog. And they do that all these games and it's just does not work for the game at all. But it's a fun game. I used to play multiplayer like everybody else. Proximity mines is my favorite weapon. I love that. Yeah, I love the game and I love playing it but you're right. It's it's ugly as dirt.GP 53:31 Yeah. Do you know who I killed more with proximity mines than anybody else yourself? Yes, me. I find my short term memory man. I try.Palsh 53:40 I tried to lure people into it without setting it off myself. And was very unsuccessful.GP 53:46 Shit went to the to the point of the fog. And to kind of again, put this all in the same packaging as the Tinder and the dating things. They do the same thing in nightclubs. You know dim the lights a little bit and put into more fog, it'd be fine. So we've all fallen victim to that it's okay. Alright, so on to the other side of that coin. Let's now examine the beautiful games that are completely without any other merits. Next time, well maybe not next time but in the upcoming episodes on presby to cancel. Let's go around and restate our names a group of rapscallions and tell everybody where they can find us. Jake, you want to start us off?Jake 54:33 Sure I'm sick Jake, you can find me on Twitch and Twitter. And I guess hereGP 54:39 Wonderful. Thank youPalsh 54:41 push. You can find me here most of all, and I also stream very sparingly on Twitch as well under pulse 109 pls h 109.Wulff 54:52 Okay, very good. And well. You can find me streaming on Twitch or here or occasionally posting on Twitter. werewolf w ar EWLFFGP 55:04 awesome and I am guy prime. You can find me here on Twitch under the retro therapy or on YouTube, Instagram or Twitter as the retro therapy, everybody until next time, thank you so much for joining us.Jake 55:21 Special thanks for music go to Arthur, the ancient found on Soundcloud or the last ancient on YouTube. For more episodes, please visit our website presby to cancel.com as well Feel free to like or subscribe at Apple iTunes, Google podcasts or anywhere else you'd like to listen to your favorite shows. As always, thank you. This has beenWulff 55:42 a do againSpecial thanks to Arthur The Last Ancient on soundcloud for our podcast theme. For updates and more episodes please visit our website www.pressbtocancel.com, or find us on Twitter @pressbtocancel and Instagram @pressbtocancel.

Greetings, this is Kelly Coughlin, CPA, and CEO of EveryDay CPA providing tax accounting and revenue solutions to individuals and businesses throughout the U.S. In today’s podcast, I am going to interview a former grizzly bear. Yep! In a former life, for 30 years, he was a grizzly bear who took the shape of an IRS Officer, seizing assets and pursuing DOJ tax lien foreclosures. David Ronquillo began his career as a revenue officer in 1980 in Seattle. He has held positions as Field Collection Group Manager and Senior Collection Policy Analyst. Currently, he is helping tax professionals increase their knowledge and skills representing clients who are dealing with the IRS Collection operations. David, I want to welcome you to the EveryDay CPA Podcast. Kelly: I have a couple more questions on kind of the behind the scenes dynamics of the collection area, one is, what are some of the motivators or behind the scenes incentives that influence an agent that works on these cases, that work in favor of the taxpayer, and certainly which ones don’t work in favor of the taxpayer? I am thinking, you know, there is a pressure to close the case to get it off the table, right? We have heard all that, is that a fair statement, that there is the pressure to gets things closed, right? David: Right. Kelly: Does that pressure help the taxpayer or hurt the taxpayer or is a neutral? David: It can depend, and I can see it go both ways, for example, if it’s an egregious case, you know, the way that they ran the tax up, you know, a trust fund recovery penalty is a classic example. IRS may spend more time on it digging for assets or digging for a way to collect what is owed, simply because of the way the tax was generated or how cooperative - did they do what the revenue officer asks them to do or are they going out to try to refinance their house? So, in those instances, the case may be directly classified as a case that’s over-age. It used to be nine months. If the case was older than nine months in the inventory it was over age so then management starts looking at it a lot closer trying to figure out, what do we need to do to close this case? But if it’s a good enough case where it should not be closed, the IRS is not going to close it. On the other hand, if it’s a simple payment agreement, taxpayers can come in, they can make monthly payments, case is getting old, hey, let’s get the payment agreement written up and let’s get it closed. Let’s move on to something else. So, the pressure on closing the case can work both ways, it just depends on what your circumstances are. In dealing with the revenue officer, I always take the choice, because I hear these advertisements on the radio, oh, yeah, we do battle with the IRS, we fight the IRS, this and that. I don’t fight the IRS because it’s not effective. When people would fight me or fight my revenue officers, it was never effective because I used to tell taxpayers when I was a revenue officer, you don’t want to cooperate, fine, I will clear my desk and I will just have your case on my desk and I will spend all my time on it trying to figure out how I am going to collect from you, okay? So, because you are having an interaction with another individual, another human being, and people like to be treated well, like to be treated nice, the revenue officer is the same way, they go home from work to a family, to a family dog, they are regular people. So, I always advocate, try to solve the case for the revenue officer. If you know what the rules are, the procedures are, what the internal revenue manual calls for with the case within those parameters. If they owe tax you know that the revenue officer is going to want a 433-A, a financial statement or if it’s a business 433-B, you know what the standards are, don’t ask the revenue officer to grant $5,000 expense for mortgage and utilities when the standard for the area is like 2,000 bucks. So, work to resolve the case for the revenue officer, that way they don’t have to spend as much time of concentration on your case. Be cooperative, you have got a deadline, try to meet the deadline. If you can’t meet the deadline, at least call the revenue officer ahead of time and say I can’t meet the deadline and this is why, and generally they will extend the deadline. Don’t argue with them over issues that are not important, okay? In my example, the mortgage and utilities are $5,000, the standard is $2,000, why are you arguing with them over that? You probably won’t get it. I mean, you can put a little bit, but why, “Here is all the utility bills and this is why.” But I would much rather spend my time arguing with the revenue officer over something that they did wrong rather than something that I know my chances of winning are slim to none. Kelly: You keep referring to the revenue officer, what’s the hierarchy of IRS case management, the point of contact, taxpayer? And, parenthetically, I am going to assume that you recommend in most cases that a taxpayer get help from a professional that knows how to navigate these areas, is that a fair statement? David: Yeah, It is. It depends on the case. It depends on how much the taxpayer owes. If the taxpayer owes $5,000 and they can pay $500 a month then I would just tell them, hey, call the IRS or send in a letter to the IRS that you want to make a monthly payment agreement. If they owe $50,000 or $150,000 then that’s a lot different, and then it depends on what they have. Taxpayers, what I have seen, they don’t want to spend their time trying to deal with the IRS. They don’t know how the IRS works; they don’t know how the IRS thinks; they don’t know the IRS language and they don’t know what the IRS can do to them. And I have had taxpayers come to me after they have dealt with the IRS, and generally, they have a deadline put on them and now they want me to fix the problem. And that’s like, well, you’ve got a deadline from the IRS which is in three days and you expect me to do all this work for you, and if the work is not done, financial statement is not submitted, they are going to lobby. I can’t guarantee you that I can do this. My recommendation to taxpayers is, do not contact the IRS. Generally, if you owe enough money and you don’t feel confident in dealing with the IRS, contact a professional that knows what they are doing, knows how to deal with the IRS, because you’ll probably sleep a lot better at nights rather than you trying to deal with the IRS. Kelly: And if you are a tax professional and you don’t know how to navigate through this side of the IRS area, the collection area, then that’s your focus now in your business enterprise, correct? You are helping tax professionals navigate through these waters? David: Yes. I am going to stop representing taxpayers, simply, because I have done it for close to 40 years. And what I would rather do now is just simply act as a consultant to tax professionals. If they have questions, I’ll help them develop strategies on particular cases. You know, I attended the National Association Enrolled Agents conference at Las Vegas every year and those are good conferences but what I see happening is that you have folks coming in and they kind of learn representation to add it on to their practice, which is good, but you sit there in a seminar for an hour to an hour and a half to two hours, for example, on filling out a financial statement, 433-A, that’s really, in my opinion, not enough, because there are implications to what you put down on that 433-A. Anybody can fill it out because you are just putting down numbers. So, if you write down for real estate, three bedrooms, two bath resident, that its fair market value is $500,000, and the mortgage against it is $100,000, for equity of $400,000, you have to know how the IRS is going to look at that $400,000, especially a revenue officer. You just can’t submit that 433-A and say to a revenue officer, here it is, and have yourself wide open or no prepare your client. The revenue officer is going to ask you to go borrow, so let’s get started right now. Kelly: Right, right. David: So, the seminars are good but until you really get out and start working cases, Offers in Compromises is another one, the Acceptance Rates on Offers in Compromise is just under 50 percent. I don’t submit a lot of offers but everyone, I’ve probably submitted maybe about 10, 15, at the most, everyone has been accepted except for one, and that is because she went and got a job, that increased her income which kind of blew the offer up. You know, you have to be really, really careful on what you are doing so that you can achieve success for your clients. So, my plans now going into the future is, do consulting work. People want to call me up, this is what I have got, this is the type of case, I can kind of walk them through it, and try this, this and this, and if that doesn’t work, you know what, let’s try this. And just, you know, basically be a coach is what I want to do. Kelly: Yeah, got it. So, back to that question, hierarchy of case management, you have got the revenue officer, the next level up from that, like his supervisor, what do you call that supervisor? David: That is the group manager, and that group manager is going to supervise anywhere from 10 to 15 revenue officers; above that is the territory manager - that was my last position, it was a territory manager, and they are supervising anywhere, nowadays, because the personnel has shrunken, you know, five to 10 groups. And then above the territory manager is the area director and he or she is supervising…They have States, like here in Texas we are a part of the golf state area, that area director is in Huston. And golf state, they did some reconfiguration, but it used to be Texas, Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia and Tennessee, and, I think, Arkansas. Kelly: Okay. So, back to revenue officer, so, let’s say we have got a revenue officer that says, I want to go after retirement assets, I think earlier you said they have to go up three levels so does that mean it goes to the area director or the territory manager? David: Goes to the group manager, the group manager forwards it to the territory manager who forwards it up to the area director. Kelly: Alright. David: Every area has what’s called a technical analyst and this person will review the case for the area director, looking at the technical aspects of the case - does it meets the requirement for whatever the revenue officer is asking for? And if the technical analyst says, yes, this is good, they will give it to the area director and then he or she will sign off on it and they’ll go and come back tomorrow and open the levy. Kelly: That’s retirement assets and then the personal residence, same thing but it goes up one level above that, did you say? David: Yeah, it will go up through the area director and then it goes over to a special unit called advisory, and these are senior revenue officers that will look at the case again for technical issues. Does it meets the technical, the legal and technical, does it meets the requirements for doing the seizure? The case will then move over to IRS council’s office for review. They will review it for the same thing and they will then forward it over to the Department of Justice Civil Tax Division for the DOJ to take it in to Federal District Court to get an appointment to take it to the Federal District Court. Kelly: Okay, that’s very helpful. I have two final questions, unrelated, where you talked about OIC and some of these other tactics that are used to deal with liabilities. Let’s talk about CNC, Currently Not Collectable, once a tax liability goes into CNC classification that kind of puts everything on hold, there is no more collection activity, when does it get further attention, it won’t stay in there forever? What’s the catalyst to get it out of that, is it a tax return that gets filed and then the IRS notices, oh, this guy is making ten times the income now, is that more or less what happens? David: That is what happens, the IRS when they see a case they will set an income threshold. It’s in the internal revenue manual on how they calculate that. What they are looking at is necessary living expenses, and they set the threshold a little bit higher than what the necessary living expenses are because they don’t want a case that is generating out just because the taxpayer went $5 over what their necessary living expenses were, but they’ll set a threshold and then when subsequently file tax return, the income will be matched up against what the threshold is. And if their income is now greater than what the threshold is the case will then be regenerated out for collection because the assumption is the taxpayer is making more money now they can start paying towards something. If the taxpayer never exceeds that threshold the case will never come out, the statute will expire and that will be the end of it. Kelly: Alright, okay. David: And even, I think, if the taxpayer doesn’t file tax returns it won’t be put out of CNC status but what will happen is the IRS will be asking for the tax returns which is a whole other area to go into. Kelly: Yeah, right, right, okay. Alright, the final question is on internal collection versus external collection. A part of these ads we see on TV is, the IRS has hired a bevy of external collection agents that will really go after you, if you think your life was bad before, it really will be bad now. What are the facts on that? David: Now, there is big controversy over these private debt collections. The National Taxpayer Advocate is definitely opposed to it. IRS management, they tried this a number of years ago because they want to assign the low hanging fruit to cases that they cannot collect, the CNC cases to these private debt collectors. The most that they can do is make a phone call, try to locate the taxpayer and make a phone call but when it comes to actually resolving the case, say for example it’s a CNC case, private debt collector gets in touch with them and the taxpayer says, well, okay, I want to pay $100 a month, that case has to go back to IRS. IRS has to set up the payment agreement. They have no enforcement authority, basically, they are just trying to talk people into paying what they owe, track them down and pay what they owe. Internally, like we said at the beginning, the brown bear can chase them up the tree but the grizzly bear can just rip the tree out, that’s what IRS can do. Kelly: Yeah, right. Well, that is terrific. So, your market now is to help tax professionals help other taxpayers with tax liability issues. How would you like them to get in touch with you, telephone call, email? David: My email is david@dfwtaxhelp. That’s delta foxtrot whiskey tax help, h e l p.com. I have a website dfwtaxhelp.com, phone number is 214.997.4470. Kelly: That’s great. David: Yes, people have questions, you know, and I will tell you, NAEA just came out with this forum where people can post questions, and I look at that sometimes and people will post a question on collection issues, maybe something on an offer, and various people will respond. And I look at that and I think to myself, the person that is asking the question is maybe getting two or three lines of an answer. And in a lot of stuff in collection there is permutations to it, there is different nuances that can occur. You can plan to go down one path and you have to know what’s down that path that can mess things up. So, I see that forum is good for quick short answers but if you really, really want to know how to handle a specific situation you really need to talk to somebody that is familiar with the situation that can give you some good directions, to give you good ideas on strategies of what to do. Kelly: That’s terrific. Well, David, I look forward to having you on my team to help me and my customers deal with this because I think you are a terrific resource to have and I am glad that that former grizzly bear is in my corner and are helping people. I like that. David: I like that. I will have to tell my colleagues that I am still with the IRS. It’s terrific. Well, thank you, Kelly. Kelly: Thanks. David: Alright. Kelly: I enjoy talking to you, great. Bye. David: Alright, bye, bye.

Ready to Positioning Your Business to Profit? Go to-->>> http://positioningtoprofit.com/HLP_029.mp3Patty: Hey there my legacy leader This is Patty Domínguez with Episode 29 of Her Legacy Podcast Reinventing yourself and your Business with the amazing Kelly Howard, Kelly has had an amazing run at entrepreneurship. Being a business boss she has started and built and sold business number four. So in this episode we're talking about how to know when it's time to sell how she knew literally what was holding her back from selling.And then just the overall mindset of what it takes to get into this frame of mind and do it knowing setting the intention that on the other side of it you're going to be fine. We know that being an entrepreneur is not for the faint of heart.And so I deeply appreciate these kind of conversations with women who just have that fortitude and the knowingness and setting the intention and seeing it through. I particularly admire women like that so I'm super excited to share Kelly's story with you here on Her Legacy Podcast. And please do hit the subscribe button if you haven't done so. And of course let me know what you're thinking about this episode. What other topics do you want to see? Because I'm always looking for new guests to bring to you my legacy leader. So this episode is a special one with Kelly Howard. Please do enjoy. And here we go.Patty: All right Kelly Howard thank you so much for being on Her Legacy Podcast. It is such a pleasure. And it was actually commenting and how fresh faced she is today. She's putting me to shame you. And because this is not a video podcast Thank God then just wondering knowledge with you. OK. And welcome.Kelly: Thank you. I'm super excited to be here and I told Patty that the reason I was so fresh faced was I actually showered this morning which of course when you're online you have to do that right.Patty: The secret of owning your own business you know getting to decide whether you want a shower or not. I wanted to just say we met in person at a mastermind a week ago and it's such a joy to connect.And I got to tell you I did a show talking about just how important connecting in person is. I mean you can have group code you have an online presence and doing that kind of thing but there's nothing like being physically in front of a group of people and connecting at that level.So I just want you know I'm so glad I got a chance because we were laughing so much and having so much fun and learning and immersing ourselves and just new depths of opportunity and it just been fantastic so far.Kelly: Yeah it was very brilliant.Patty: Yeah it was awesome. All right. So I'd like to get braggy with all my guests and I want to know what do you believe your superpower is.Kelly: Oh my superpower. OK. My superpower is a weird one. I have the ability for good or for bad to not remember something that wasn't good. So yeah. So this is the way that works. Like I'm just going to make something up. Let's say that someone did a really bad review on me.Patty: Yeah.Kelly: Right. I like Oh Bad review. And then that would be it. I would never remember it again. And if I saw that person I wouldn't remember that it didn't happen like there were times when my partner would say you can't do business with that company again. Don't you remember what happened I'm like No.?So my team part of their job is to keep track of things like this. I don't know if it's a superpower but it really makes my life easy.Patty: Oh my God. Well we know that the cause of our suffering is attachment. As the Buddha says and that your ability to be removed from the outcome is exceptional and that is literally what causes all suffering.Kelly: Yeah, I guess that's a great way of looking at it. Thank you.Patty: Yes. I mean I literally get chills because how many I remember in my first podcast that I had this was in 2015 I think we got one bad review and it was completely ridiculous it didn't have anything to do with anything with the podcast. I was literally sick about it.I was like how could somebody not appreciate it and we just take it so hard or if somebody comments on your work I mean how often has that happened. Or something as not well received. We look at the bad and bypassed the good and we just get mired in the bad.Kelly: Yeah. It doesn't help I know that like at one point I used to check and see why people unsubscribe. Like if they unsubscribe from email list. Well because Kelly Howard is a litchi cried a lot so hard And after that it's surreal I don't I would look at my own tabs anymore.Patty: Oh my gosh.Kelly: I remember it. But it struck me as a rather funny actually. So yeah yeah I guess it's just holding on those things just doesn't help much.Patty: It doesn't. It doesn't. That is truly a superpower. The one thing that I say is just as a total aside I have been so amazing about, I want people to unsubscribe like don't waste my e-mail service provider people's space type of thing. If you're not interested. Yeah. And I think it was Lisa Carpenter last year she talked about doing a massive cleanup just kind of a recon doing her e-mail list.Kelly: Sure.Patty: It just unapologetically. She's like you know these people are never going to do business with me because I know we have such an attachment to our list size as supposed to the quality. So just as a little aside as it comes to my mind there's nothing wrong with that.And I know we just put so much weight on these dumb things that don't matter at the end of the day and you just a perfect example of the way they explained it you were you just laughed it off you know.Kelly: Yeah.Patty: Yeah. It's incredible. All right. So I thought it was so fascinating when I read when you first fill out a form or just about just what you've been doing in this incredible background that you have had you started growing building and selling for different businesses.Kelly: So you're truly truly an entrepreneur.Patty: Yeah.Kelly: I don't. I mean I work well with others but I don't work out what someone tells me what to do.Patty: Amazing. So tell me about like is this something that you always knew that you would do or did just organically happened because you're just wired that way for something new.Kelly: Yeah I think I am just wired that way. I couple of very young stories like you know I learned very early on that if I wanted a horse I had to clean my horse stables. I did the horses Ta da da Right. So that's how I figured out that I got what I wanted.So a few years later I was able to drive. I was 16 at the time and I saw a fruit stand on the side of the road. I stopped and I'm you know watching these people and people just fine all this stuff and I thought why can't I have a food stamp. So I served fruit stand and my mother said we look like the grapes of wrath.My little brother and my friend from down the street to work we would drive to this fruit stand every day. But it was amazing like I had no knowledge that I couldn't do this. So I just did it and we got shut down by the Health Department they extend something back up again. Well, All right. And it was stupid just like how much money we made. It was crazy.Patty: Wow.Kelly: And it just kind of stuck with me after that. And then you know I don't do well with someone telling me what to do. You know I'm just not very good at that. So it just stuck with me and that's what I've been doing ever since.Patty: And out of curiosity what are your core values.Kelly: Oh freedom is clearly the number one driver.Patty: Yeah. Yeah. And that is just we're really addicting. And here's the other thing is that the fact that you just did it and didn't even think you have this ability to remove yourself from the outcome. Did you have any fear of failure or anything?Kelly: Oh at that time no. I will say that as I've gotten older and businesses have become more successful then absolutely. Like right now and I'm sure we'll talk about it later but right now I'm in transition so I'm starting something new. Like early it's on my desk whatever new it is. And there's absolutely some I don't think fear is the right word but if I paid attention to it I would be afraid. So I have to just like or remove myself from the possibility that it could flop and I might not do it. And just like focus on that outcome.Patty: And how do you do that? How do you say OK how do you catch yourself because I know we talked right before it hit the record button this last business as you were ready to sell it you're kind of exploring whether to sell or not. And the question of one came up and you find yourself too much in the comfort zone. How did you set by to that?Kelly: So yeah. So I was way in the comfort zone. And I had realized that this business went on for a long time I think I was in it for about 14 years. And it was the most successful business I've ever had. And I was really cool was every day money would show up in my account.Patty: Unbelievable.Kelly: Magic right. It just it was a membership company. So there was just always money in my bank account. And when I decided that it just my heart wasn't there anymore. You know like energy my heart like when I woke up in the morning it was like Yeah, let's go do this thing. It wasn't like yeah let's go do this thing. So it was time to change. And I definitely I guess the right word to say is that as I was closing on this business there was a little bit of a head around my throat.Oh what are you doing? Like really. You're doing this. And then the other side of me is just like just don't even think about it Kelly. You cannot think about a bad outcome if I think about a bad outcome. Then I'm stuck. Right. So whenever I go to bad outcome I just like I guess it comes back to at superpower really just turn my brain off it's like whatever. Let's not think about that. We'll think about unicorns and rainbows and Right. It's the only thing I know to do. Like literally right.Right now the way I structured the cell of this business because I want to do it so quickly all of while not all of it but the majority of the revenue comes at the end. So it was a serious leap of faith on this one because I mean I have bills I have ongoing you know expenses and starting a new business but I still went OK well let's just see what happens like worst thing that can happen is I go back and I started another fruit stand or start stacking groceries right. Like.Patty: Gosh you're truly an entrepreneur, like you're like yeah what the worst thing that can happen is and if we can wrap our heads around that and say you know what. You're still going to be OK. You're going to be OK.You have the ability to create money. I mean it's like when you really recognize and coming from a place of if this doesn't happen then there's always something else that mentality is was going to help you stay in the frame of mind that you're going to be OK.And I know that makes sense but I think it makes a lot of sense and I think that people hold on like because I've heard this before and I even had clients like this has to work otherwise blah blah blah my bringing in such a bad energy source. And like it's like you're forcing it to happen and I know I literally have been there too I am notorious. I remember having a coach saying to me you are literally one of the worst hardoholics I've ever seen. And that show me just my wiring. Like I'm going to work myself to death because this has to have it. And it sounds like for you. You almost say OK I'm going to forge ahead on this but I know that if that doesn't work there's always going to be something else.Kelly: There will be I mean if you think about it. We live really easy lives right. Like I mean really occasionally if you look around our lives we're all crazy. So the worst thing that could happen for me isn't that bad right.Like I mean there was a time in my life when things weren't great and I would realize that even in times that weren't great I was still better off than I ever really probably expected myself to be as a child. Right.So I don't even know how to say it it's just that something else will happen. Like you know something better will come along. Things just worked out. Oh there's light all we end on built a fear of life right.Patty: Yeah but you know it really is true. It was just I've meant before we hit the record button I was talking about how I went to dinner with some friends and they are not entrepreneurs. They work for companies and my friend was saying just how unhappy she is and I was talking about how it has literally been seven years since I've been in corporate and I just cannot wrap my head around ever going back and I always say it's because I know too much.Not that I'm so much smarter that I know too much of what it's like to live on the other side. And for me that sound like for you because this is what sparked this comment is that my inner peace of not having to deal with other people's bullshit in a work situation my inner peace is more important.And if there's ever a situation where I'm just not making as much it's ok. I prefer to have my inner peace I don't need the super designer bags, do I like them absolutely. But if that means I have to forego those types of things I know that I'm going to be OK because my inner peace is lost in court.Kelly: Yeah it is true. I mean if you don't feel good inside then it's just not fun.Patty: It's not. And I wish more people understood that. And I mean I've come full circle and that realization is that I just love the perspective that you naturally have that I've had to find out on my own and I think in a very hard way. You know verses like you're just wired that way which is so fantasticKelly: I mean our society doesn't teach that.Patty: No.Kelly: You know I mean it is very much like you need a nose to the grindstone you need to do things right you know if you don't be irresponsible like don't get rid of a business that's working.Patty: Great.Kelly: You doesn't know what's going to happen next.Patty: Yeah.Kelly: that's just kind of social.Patty: Yeah it is just the social pressures and when you finally like all the irrational rules. Right. The really weird unwritten irrational rules that you kind of people are probably thinking you're crazy for doing that. So how did you get over your whole imposter syndrome is it because you didn't want to sell because you didn't know what was next or you didn't want to go into the West next.Kelly: So OK the imposter syndrome this is what happened it was back in August when I really decided OK you know quit partying around like I had a broker. But I really was like you know yeah yeah. Don't like that offer or whatever. Not interested. And I realized that I was really kind of holding on. Right.So I was like what am I doing. I mean why I am holding on. And it's because I had become such a big dog in a small space that it was really easy for me. Right. Like you know I was known in my space. If I spoke people listened. You know it was kind of like ego right it was just like total ego thing.And I was thinking well now I'm just no one right. I'm just no one again in a no one space because I don't even know what I want to do. And in that you know it took me it was probably four months of just kind of wallowing around in that thought process because I was just like well you know who am I going to be. So then I decided I was going to be is Kelly 4.0,Patty: Oh I love that.Kelly: That was it. You know reincarnation here and it's just a joke. And then when I jump I start thinking about like I still if you were to say like you know gone to my head. What are you going to do? I'd be like this.I has done it well. But the truth is is that you know I know what I'm good at and I know where I can help. So it comes together.Patty: Let's continues with the show. So this new brand that you're working on and it very much is in the early stages is fit is freedom. Right.Kelly: Correct.Patty: Can you talk a little bit about your vision as it is right now because we know that you can fit itKelly: No absolutely. What I know. I guess I get so emotional around all of my friends who are whether they're entrepreneurs or women who work for corporations. I hate the fact that something I hear all the time is Oh yeah yeah I know I need to take care of my health. I'll do it tomorrow I'll do it next week I'll do it when this project's done. I'll do it after I launch you know whatever it is and it always is getting put off.And what happens is that I see my friends like you know doing the things that they love to do they start gaining weight. You know become inflexible and they're just not caring for themselves. And it's what I. I got a couple of years ago I started realizing I was getting what I called Launch Hangover's like I would do these big launches right. And then you've got runway up to the launch and you got to clean up after launch will this had three to four month period. Right. And I was just like working my ass off.Patty: Yeah.Kelly: They were successful but I wasn't because I wasn't taking care of myself like you know my food. I'd start having food delivered that was just like the local Chinese food and whatever right. You know things I don't normally do and not going to the gym.So that's where it all came from. I'm like OK I had to turn it around and once I turned it around I went you know this is something that's important because how can you and everyone else and myself do the things that we need to do if we don't sulk it.Patty: Yeah you're absolutely right. I know last year I was focused on work and I was sacrificing a lot of the health and that's so easy to get into that rhythm where you say oh later I'll do it later. And it's just not enough. And I know like something happens after 40 where things are just not working the way that they used to.Kelly: Well Yeah it actually starts out at about 30.Patty: Seriously.Kelly: Yes.Patty: Oh my gosh.Kelly: But it's happening on a cellular level. And so then by 40 if you've been kind of you know doing the work wrapping during your 30s and by 40s it starts showing up and then if you keep doing it then in the 50s you're like oh man can I get it back.Patty: Everything's hurting and it's so much harder.Kelly: Yeah.Patty: Oh wow. So then what is the structure of your new business going to be doing you think is it going to be a membership as well or are you going to do more retreats.Kelly: Well actually a great question. I will start with a simple online 10 week course with coaching a weekly coach course. People can either do it yourself or you know do the coaching monthly.Patty: Yeah.Kelly: That's step one step two is a retreat because I events are in my blood like I just can't help it. I just do events right. I've always done a bit. So a couple of retreats here. That's it no more. And then the final step is a membership where people can be accountable with each other and stay there because there's so much to be said for.Well it's like you're talking about community. Yeah. If you're not connecting. Especially if you're working by yourself right. Like if you're not connecting and you're not having fun and you're not being accountable you're not turn load then trimmed there when you're all together then Life start shrinking and we don't want life to shrink like I mean we do this for ourselves so life can expand and not so it shrinks.Patty: That's so fantastic and it sounds like you have the structure in mind because you've done it before and it's just going to be easy peasy once you hone in on exactly what the experience you want your people to have. And we've heard that before.Kelly: Yeah yeah. I mean it's kind of like Chibbies. Right.Patty: You're like piece of cake. I like this... All right. So then what's your vision for this? It is freedom. Let's say over the next two three years.Kelly: OH OK. Let me clarify that like what does the business end up looking like what is the business. Where is the business? Maybe a little.Patty: Yeah. So for you. What do you wanted to look like. You personally because you've been in your last business you have for 14 years you anticipate holding on the same view. You want to get it to a certain level and suddenly it has that always in the back of your mind.Kelly: Yeah that's a great question. So I've never had a personal brand before. And the reason I haven't is because the personal brand is harder to sell, right. I am kind of at the age now where I probably don't have Kelly 5.0 in me likeYou know I mean really the truth. So what I assume is that I wanted something that was very location independent everything I've had in the past has been tied to the city and the cities but also for me but it's been tied very tightly that way.So location independents small team. I've had big teams I've had little teams. I want little team I want like you know at the most. There are five of us and we are just like kick ass and take names. In a very small group less is more for me these days. My word for the year is ease. I want things to be easy.Patty: Yeah.Kelly: So easy to me is not a big team a simple structure. I don't do one on one coaching because that's not easy for me. It doesn't light me up.Patty: Right. Right.Kelly: So I want things that just make me happy. And I also want a lot more playing in the next couple of years. I kind of dialed the back these last two years. And I mean I'd like to get out and backpack and kayak and things like that. So I've already put big chunks of time in my calendar where I'm just taking off you know.Patty: Oh that's so amazing. I remember hearing on somebody in the online space that is like an author speaker. He said that at the beginning of the year him and his partner they take 100 days on their calendar where they just take off.Kelly: Wow. That's awesome.Patty: So yes that is number one on his calendar when he talks about goals and objectives and all this and then says one of the 100 days. And where are we going. And I thought that was so brilliant because it makes it a lot negotiable.Kelly: Yeah.Patty: And everything else works. Now isn't it.Kelly: Yeah. Now I got to go back and look at my calendar.Patty: I know I thought that was so smart and it just reminded me and I heard him say this like literally four years ago. But it just popped into my head because of the way that you set age you're like I want to do more of the fun and this and that and so what if you sat down on your calendar and just made it a nonnegotiable. And I think that's how it doesn't get away from us because we have a tendency like the largest lets file that later.Kelly: I mean I don't you know I've done that and.Patty: I just love that philosophy. And he's all about my business works for me and my partner in the set up in the lifestyle that we want.Kelly: Right. That is the lifestyle that we're doing rightPatty: Oh Yummy. I was like oh my god that's so smart. So I don't know. I'm all for that and I think that's something to really consider a dodge because I definitely see the value in that. I mean think about it like almost a third of your year is based in enjoyment and connection and the relationship holding for me. Tell me that you're not going to have a richer life just by doing that.Kelly: That's right.Patty: Fantastic. OK. So we're going to turn the corner here. Think of a song that would represent your life. What song would it be?Kelly: OK. Sure. Big fan of James Brown. I feel good.Patty: I love it Kelly I feel good.Kelly: I love it.Patty: That is awesome. OK. And what is one personal development or growth habit that you have that's worked for you.Kelly: Woo maybe a bundle is at work. I have like a little bundle that I have every day. I can't tell you that I knock it out of the park every day. It's probably 70 percent that I hit it. But the bundle is I write a journal. I meditate or I do self-analysis.I put my vitamins out like I am the worst vitamin I'm a perfect vitamin buyer. Terrible vitamin consumer right. So the vitamins go out and then the other thing is I write my goals too.Patty: Oh wow.Kelly: I kind of bundle that little thing into the morning.Patty: Oh that's brilliant. It's a good morning bundle for sure. And then what is your definition of success.Kelly: Wow. I think it has come back to freedom. You know I mean that really is our definition of success to meKelly: Yeah let's say you have that inner peace All the inner peace boy that's what I love it...Patty: And then after all is said and done Kelly what do you want your legacy to be.Kelly: I'm not a person who is generous with her time. Like I don't I don't volunteer. You won't find me you know at the local shelter volunteering but I am generous with my money.And I want to be able to have a legacy where I know that by what I have created I have been able to create. A better life for people who need water for animals who need homes for women who need shelter for children who need love.Patty: I Love that is beautiful. Yeah because when we have money we have choices and more money more choices on how to create more impact.Kelly: Yeah.Patty: Which is really cool. And so how do people get in touch with you if they want to hear more about Fit is freedom what you're doing which backup event this year.Kelly: So you can find us that fitisfreedom.com and that will lead you to the podcast it leads you to me at least your downloads. So once again it's just fitisfreedom.com.Patty: Brilliant so fit is freedom dot com it'll be in the show notes and all the links will be there too. With Kelly's social media handles and ways to connect with her. Kelly thank you so much for being on her legacy podcast.Kelly: Oh thank you. I mean I'm so grateful. Thank you.Patty: Likewise.Here are the links where you can reach Kelly Howard:Kelly Howard (kelly@angeltiger.com),Website: www.AngelTigerFit.com (being rebranded to www.FitisFreedom.com),

Kelly and Andrew explore the influence of the planets in their lives and the lives of their clients. Sharing ideas about Uranus moving into Taurus. They also talk about the possibilities and limits of resolving challenges with more difficult placements. They also laugh a lot! Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by Spotofy, RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. You can follow Kelly's work here.  Andrew's fundraiser is located here or using andrew@thehermitslamp.com to send money via PayPal or transfer.  Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world.  Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here.  Transcript  ANDREW: [00:00:02] Welcome to The Hermit's Lamp podcast. I'm hanging out today with Kelly Surtees, who is an astrologer, and someone that I've known for, you know, at least a decade, I'd say now a bit longer. And [00:00:17] their approach is really interesting to me because they're super smart about what they do, but they have a great sense of humor about it as well. You know, there's a way in which they seem [00:00:32] to me to continue to laugh and enjoy life and all of those things even when talking about intellectual stuff or hard stuff or whatever and I think that that's a trait that I super admire and [00:00:47] try and kind of hold in myself as I go through all of life's ups and downs and so on. But you know, hey Kelly, for people who don't know you, why don't you introduce yourself? Who are you?  KELLY: Hey Andrew, well, I'm Australian, which might be obvious now [00:01:02] that I started talking. I married a Canadian and so I live, currently, just outside Toronto, but I'm an astrologer, probably what people are more curious about, and I've been an astrologer full-time professionally for nearly 20 years, [00:01:17] so it has been my life's work.  I came to astrology very young, not because anyone in my family was interested in astrology, but because I was, and I started learning the basics when I was 10, 11 years old, back [00:01:32] in Sydney where it was a lot warmer than where we are now, and carried on with my sort of personal exploration. It was style of astrology through my teenage years and then in my early twenties, I actually signed up to do a massage therapy [00:01:47] training course and the college I was studying at in Sydney offered an astrology training program, which just had never occurred to me was a thing. So that's kind of how I got started, and what I do today is, I work with clients and students around the world, [00:02:02] I do one-on-one consults in astrology, but primarily what I'm doing more and more of these days is teaching the next generation of astrologists through my online training programs.  ANDREW: Amazing. So before we, before we were recording [00:02:17] here, we started kind of talking about astrology and we were talking about the history and the way in which sort of history and tradition and sort of practice all flow together, and I think that I'd [00:02:32] love to kind of try and pick that up and talk about that a little bit, right?  KELLY: Yeah.  ANDREW: You know, what, where did your, where did your astrology start? Like what kind of, did you start out studying older forms? Did you, did you...? KELLY: Absolutely not. Not, I started with a [00:02:47] very modern psychological astrology, which was hugely popular in the 80s and 90s, like 1980s, 1990s. I started studying astrology in the late 1990s. And yeah, just had a very, [00:03:02] I would say, a very modern introduction to psychological, almost evolutionary, components in astrology. And that was great, it got me started got me into my practice, and it was when I attended my first astrology conference, which was the FAA [00:03:17] conference in Melbourne, I think in 2004, that I was lucky enough to hear people like Demetra George, John Frawley, and Lee Lehman speak, who are very well respected astrologers who all practice slightly different forms of mediaeval [00:03:32] or traditional astrology, and connecting with those teachers really aroused my interest in things like, where did some of these things we use in astrology come from? Like who first created the houses, for instance? Or why is [00:03:47] this planet associated with the things that it is associated with? So yeah, I would say within, you know, the first five years of starting my practice, that had become a real interest for me and that was like going down the rabbit hole.  ANDREW: Yeah, for [00:04:02] sure. I think that there's, there's always this question about that kind of stuff for me, which is really like, where, how far down do we go? KELLY: Yeah. ANDREW: You know, starting, starting out for me, you know my interest in astrology [00:04:17] came out of you know, studying Aleister Crowley and studying his magical systems. And so, you know, it was a lot of magic and ideas around the inner planets predominantly, you know. KELLY: Yes. ANDREW: And you know, and sort [00:04:32] of like working with that and looking at that as a magical model and so on. But you know, as you start digging in and you start looking back, you're like: Okay. Well, where does that come from? And what is that? How far does that go? What, where is the source from which that wisdom [00:04:47] comes from? You know? And I think it's such a, such an interesting and challenging question to kind of slide into, you know?  KELLY: It's a huge question, because it, you know, something… To try and answer that for astrology [00:05:02] takes you back to the origins of philosophy, to the origins of mathematics, you know, things like wondering why we've associated a particular physical thing or phenomenon with a certain emotional experience [00:05:17] or a certain philosophical construct. So when you dive into these origin stories, if you like, of some of the magical practices, you are almost going back to the dawn of human thought and human ideas and that can [00:05:32] be a very broad research project, because then you're not just learning explicitly about the origins of astrology. You're actually reading, you know, ancient philosophers, and you might be reading some of the original mathematicians to get a sense on why [00:05:47] they did what they did and where they were coming from.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think it's so important to also try and understand, it's not just about what they said, which is certainly important. But it's also, [00:06:02] what were they? What were they thinking? How were they thinking about it too? Right? Because you know, like in a divination class that I've been taking with one of my elders, we were discussing how, you know, a hundred and fifty years ago, [00:06:18] the scope of life's experiences, that we needed to speak about in divination, were equally complex probably on the human front, but on the practical fronts, were much narrower in some ways, you know? The range [00:06:33] of human experience and the range of things we have access to is so different. And then you know, when we go back to, like, what was it like in ancient Greece and what was it like in, you know, here, there, or wherever, you know? Yeah, it's hard to even, I think, understand [00:06:48] exactly how they considered certain things.  KELLY: Yeah. That's a . . . That's a really great point. I mean, two topics that come to my mind. One of them is, in the older literature on astrology, there's a lot of questions and a lot of detail around dealing with [00:07:03] ships and dealing with crops. So there's a lot of, you know, what indicates shipwreck? Or is my ship going to come in? And that seems a bit weird to a modern person, because why are they so obsessed with ships? But then you have to remind yourself that [00:07:18] many, many hundreds and thousands of years ago, ships were actually the primary form of transport. We didn't have trains or planes or obviously automobiles... ANDREW: Yeah. KELLY: And just to your point there, you do kind of have to almost put yourself back into: What was life like, two [00:07:33] thousand, two and a half thousand years ago, when things like crops were more likely to perhaps fail, water quality was a massive issue because that obviously led to the spread of disease or illness, life expectancy [00:07:48] was shorter, things like pregnancy were life threatening, in many cases, for women, and many more babies died, you know, in the first 12 months of their life then do today with modern medicine. So a lot of the questions and a lot of the, their life, if [00:08:03] you like, just to almost give a superficial summary, they lived a lot more, closer to the line of life and death than what we do today. And one of the kind of attacks against older forms of astrology is that it's so fated, you know, [00:08:18] and it's so deterministic, but the intention was to try and give clearer answers about really meaningful topics that were, you know, more touch-and-go than what they might be today.  ANDREW: So where [00:08:33] do you, where do you fall on the sort of fated spectrum of things?  KELLY: Oh, this is a really good question. And I've thought about it because it does come up. I have any . . . . ANDREW: Yeah!  KELLY: Over the years. There's a beautiful quote. I think it's by Albertus Magnus, [00:08:48] who says something like, actually, maybe instead of bastardizing it. That's how you know, you're an absolute asteroid nerd, that you have books like this handy, [00:09:03] because there's, he has a beautiful quote that I kind of . . . . When I first discovered this quote, however many years ago, it really helped me clarify my own answer to the fate versus free will argument. So he says, "There is in [00:09:18] man a double spring of action, namely nature and the will, and nature for its part is ruled by the stars, while the will is free. But unless it, the will, resists, it is swept along by nature and becomes [00:09:33] mechanical."  And that idea, like fate is sort of your, your nature, or what's kind of ruled by the stars, and the free will to my mind is our very human thinking, you know, application of effort, and I've seen [00:09:48] this in chart work with clients and students over the years now, enough that I know it to be true. That your birth chart might be, if it's almost like a map of your fate and if you do nothing, if you just allow the fate to manifest freely and purely, [00:10:03] it can give very clear sense of this area of life flows, and that's where you have success, and this area of life is where you're going to hit blocks after blocks. But if you choose to apply your free will, I'm not saying that anyone can make anything [00:10:18] happen because I don't actually believe that's true.  ANDREW: Sure. KELLY: But I do think that there are certain topics, as indicated by the chart, where the application of one's effort, aka free will, can move the needle from completely dissatisfying [00:10:33] to perhaps somewhat satisfying or maybe from somewhat satisfying to more fulfilling. There are some topics in some charts that that have a bit of a firm no and that sort of response. So I do think we [00:10:48] have free will within a scope, if that makes sense.  ANDREW: Yeah.  KELLY: Yeah. ANDREW: Yeah, I think people come--because I do predictive card reading, right? KELLY: Yes. ANDREW: People are always like, where does, where's my free will? Like, [00:11:03] you know? Or they're like, well, just tell me how it's going to be. I'm like, well, in this case, it's a free will issue. How do you want it to be? In this case it's not a free will issue. You know? KELLY: Yeah, I think that's, that's a beautiful way of describing it. I mean, I've looked and worked with clients over the years and I've beautifully been blessed to have [00:11:18] a couple of clients allow me to share some of their chart work in my teaching. But I have a handful of clients who have been single their whole lives, and whatever they have tried or not tried or maybe they haven't even been interested. The topic of relationships [00:11:33] has simply not come alive for them. And there are ways to see things like that in the chart, and then there are other charts where it's like, there are some challenges here, but if you put the effort in, you got to be able to get a little bit more. But I like how you summarized [00:11:48] it there, that there are some topics that are kind of fated, and a little bit out of our hands and there are others where it's like, you can move the needle on this, if you desire it enough. Yeah.  ANDREW: Yeah. I often think of [00:12:03] it this way: You know, so, we live on a planet with seven point whatever billion people.  KELLY: Yeah. ANDREW: All of those people are seeking to exert their free will.  KELLY: Yes. ANDREW: However, you know, everybody is to a greater or lesser extent [00:12:18] acting based on culture, which is, which is a force that, you know, if it's internalized and not undone, you know, it's just like fate, right? You know, like the cultural bias or cultural experiences or cultural expectations, [00:12:33] right? KELLY: Even family conditioning.  ANDREW: Right? Well, that was going to be the next thing, right? Like, you know, our baggage, our personal baggage, right? And then we're, so, we're not only trying to exert free will, but we're trying to exert free will into the sphere where everybody else is exerting [00:12:48] those forces and maybe some degree of their own free will, and then there's some amount of chaos in the system, and then there's some fixed points, and it's like, so how much, how free is that free will? And I think, you know, maybe it's, you know, [00:13:03] as we're talking about it, I think it's a carryover from my time being so focused on Crowley's kind of magic of cultivating the will and building the capacity, you know, in the way that that quote talks about, right? Like, you know, it's like, how [00:13:18] free can we become from those things? The answer is, never free.  KELLY: Yeah. ANDREW: Fully. But like, we can create a lot more space and in many areas of our life, maybe we can create a lot more space so that then we can kind of act, choose, [00:13:33] or discover where we are aligned better maybe? You know?  KELLY: Yeah, and I think that's a huge part of any type of magical healing work, whether it's astrology or tarot, or other ritual practices. One of the things that [00:13:48] Dimetra George said in this very first conference years ago, which has stuck with me, she described that it's partly the astrologist's job to help the client understand the areas of their life that are most likely indicated flowing [00:14:03] fulfillment, and the areas of their life that are less likely to give a reward or sense of satisfaction relevant to the amount of effort that they might put in, and I think that's, you know, sort [00:14:18] of, to what you're speaking about here--We're speaking about. We can influence certain things to a certain extent, but you made a great point, like the 7 billion people, all trying to influence certain things. We [00:14:33] can't all get everything. It's just, it's not the way things are built. I won't have as many children as Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie, no matter how hard I try, that's just not part of my experience, [00:14:48] and other people might be like, but I want, you know, the wealth of Bill Gates or Warren Buffett or what have you and like, that's not, you know, so part of our work is to help guide people. Like you might think that you want these things. It doesn't really bring you fulfillment. Like there is an exploration [00:15:03] around the self-awareness, self-knowing, like knowing the self and moving beneath some of the things that we think we want, to get in touch with the things that really make us all come alive.  ANDREW: For sure. Yeah and I know for me too, you [00:15:18] know, like because I spent a lot of time, especially magically, but you know, definitely in other ways too, kind of working to counterbalance the, you know, tendencies in my chart or the things that are more problematic there.  KELLY: Yeah.  ANDREW: But even [00:15:33] at that, you know, like, you know, like my placement of Saturn is just, you know, it's a it's a recurrent point of friction for me. And that's probably never going to change. I can see it coming. I can see it coming more now. I [00:15:48] can have better strategies for dealing with it when it kind of like, brings up its thing. I can make some degree of better choices in advance. But you know, it's sort of, it's a, it's a, it's in a place where it [00:16:03] just kind of continuously causes a certain kind of friction in my life. And you know, the reality is, it's like, well, I've just got to roll with that, I've just got to accept that, and I've got to learn to to see it and roll with it and move through [00:16:18] it and to not hold onto it. And, and even kind of at this point, you know, I used to think that I would eventually kind of like learn the lesson of that position and and be free of it in a sense, and I've even caught a move past that where I'm like, [00:16:33] I don't even think that-- I'm sure there are lessons that I will continue to learn about it.  KELLY: Yeah. ANDREW: But I think that, that that's also a wrong idea. I think that, you know, stuff like, some of the aspects are just about straight up acceptance, you know, and just be like, look [00:16:48] at that. That's just the way it's going to be. Stop hoping it's going to be different.  KELLY: Yeah.  ANDREW: And then see what changes, you know?  KELLY: Well, that is a really powerful piece. I mean, it reminds me of people who are like, I wish I was taller or I wish I was shorter or I wish I had, you know, different, [00:17:03] I mean, you can probably change your hair or your boobs or what have you, but it's very hard to change your height. You know, it just, you are either a tall person or a short person for the most part, and these-- You just have to work with it. You know, I'm a tall person. I'm 5'10". [00:17:18] I'm like a hundred and seventy eight centimeters or something. And you know, when you're a teenager, you hate that, because everybody, you can't hide in a crowd, people see, but you know, as an older woman or a more mature woman, it's lovely. I can carry a little bit of extra weight and [00:17:33] nobody knows, kind of thing.  So my relationship to that fixed thing in me has changed over time and that's kind of, what you're speaking to here is that there are certain parts of our self and our psyche that we do have to [00:17:48] kind of just accept and it's what, the piece that I got really excited about, that you said, is what if I stop mentally and energetically and emotionally resisting this thing that is one way that I so desperately wish was another way? [00:18:03] If I just breathed out and allowed myself to acknowledge and accept, you know, I always have to be vigilant about money or about sexual interactions or about career, whatever it happens to be, based on, you know, you mentioned your [00:18:18] Saturn, someone else might have a problem with their Mars. You know, if you just kind of go into an acceptance place with it, the freeing up of energy and emotional power that you have been using to try and force back on that is incredibly liberating and when you take [00:18:33] that energy and you apply it to, you know, a talent or a skill, the idea of enhancing the good, you can radically change your life, not because you made that problem thing be anything other than what it was, but because you stopped [00:18:48] giving it all your focus. And you put your focus on to something that actually has, you know, some potential to take you in a more fulfilling direction. ANDREW: For sure. And I think that that's, I mean, that's one of the reasons why, going and sitting with an astrologer, [00:19:03] if you're not, you know, or learning it yourself is so helpful because there are aspects, you know. I mean, you brought up Mars, right? You know, I mean, I've Mars in Aries, I was a very angry young person, you know, and I have a, I have, when [00:19:18] it emerges, a very very bad temper. KELLY: Yes. ANDREW: But it's not that much of an issue any more. I mean, I still need to be mindful of it. But that one has been way more amenable to management and modification than [00:19:33] other aspects of my chart, because, because of its nature, maybe because of my nature, probably, because of its placement, and so on. So. There are those things where it's great and you can kind of turn them into an advantage. I mean it's part of what fuels my drive to do [00:19:48] what I do around work, right? Like I have a lot of energy, a lot of the time, and so I can do a lot of work and run the shop and do all those things. You know, whereas other people are always like, how do you do so much? I'm like, I've got Mars in Aries. I've just got gas in the tank. It just keeps going? You know? [00:20:03]  KELLY: Yeah, you're the Energizer bunny, it just keeps going and going. I mean, what we're kind of alluding to here is something that comes to us from the Hellenistic astrology, form of astrology, that has to do with sect, which is S-E-C-T. Which kind of divides [00:20:18] charts into daytime or nighttime. Very simply based on the time of day that you were born. Then this working theory is that if you're born in the daytime, Saturn is going to be a little bit more helpful or productive for you and Mars a little bit more problematic. [00:20:33] And if you're born at night time, the reverse is true. Where in the nighttime, the cool of night tends to calm the heat of Mars, so you tend to get less sharp Mars problems. And in the nighttime, the cool of the night exacerbates [00:20:48] the kind of curmudgeonly Scrooge-like energy of Saturn, so you tend to get more of a harsher Saturn.  ANDREW: Sure. Yeah.  KELLY: In a nutshell. I don't know if that rings true for you, personally Andrew, but...  ANDREW: Definitely, I was born at 9:30 at night. So.  KELLY: Yeah, that was going [00:21:03] to be my question to you, just based on the fact that you seem to really like-- I mean, your Mars is placed in one of its home signs in Aries, and that also is a way of getting a little bit more of the positive potential. The other thing you're talking about too, though, is we are all hotter [00:21:18] as energetic beings in our youth, and if we have Mars problems, they will tend to be worse in our teenage years or in our 20s.  ANDREW: Sure.  KELLY: And then the aging process, where we cool and slow, just biologically, that does [00:21:33] temper some of the Mars problems. The reverse is true for Saturn, though. Saturn problems can sometimes be something we do have to carry with us, even as we age, because the nature of aging tends to kind of stimulate more Saturnian type manifesting.  ANDREW: When [00:21:48] you talked about the, the coolness at night exacerbating, you know, Saturn.  KELLY: Saturn... ANDREW: Yeah, I've had this image of like, oh, it's chilly, and my knee hurts cause it's cold now, and oh.... [laughing] You know, it's just like, oh, man, such a Saturn image, right? KELLY: Yeah, to have sore knees, or a sore back, and it's worse in the winter, because winter is like exacerbating Saturnian qualities as does nighttime. Yeah. I mean [00:22:16] there is a positive reversal here, which is that Venus and Jupiter, considered the two benefic planets, people born in the daytime tend to have more Jupiter type gifts or talents, because the [00:22:31] heat of Jupiter is really conducive to the heat of day time. Whereas Venus is more of a moist cool planet, generally speaking, and she really comes to the fore in the evening. So if you're born at night time after the sunset or before the Sun has [00:22:46] risen, and obviously daytime and nighttime is different depending on season and time of year and birth location. So-- ANDREW: Sure. KELLY: ....being born at 9:30 at night, if you're born in Europe in July, you might still be a daytime baby, because it's a very [00:23:01] late sunset, but if you're born at 9:30 at night in January or February in Canada, you're definitely a nighttime baby though. ANDREW: For sure.  KELLY: Yeah. You do, you get like a specific type of problem, depending [00:23:16] on whether you're born in the daytime or nighttime, and then you get a planet that is giving you, you know, Venus is, can be, more creative or more relationship-oriented and that's nighttime gifts. Jupiter is more about that wisdom and teaching and inspiration and motivation and that's more [00:23:31] of a daytime gift. I mean, you have to look at the planet in the chart as well. I mean...   ANDREW: For sure.  KELLY: You'd want the Jupiter or the Venus to be in a nice sign or making a great aspect. Yeah, but that's, I don't know just when you were talking about your problem with Saturn, I'm like, I feel [00:23:46] like you must be born at nighttime because this is very-- ANDREW: For sure. Yep. My parents remember exactly what time I was born, because my dad was watching Hockey Night in Canada, which was on a Monday, [00:24:01] and you know, whatever right? Like he's like, there's like a very specific set of things that we associate around that, the memories around that, so they're like, there's no question about what time you were born, you know?  KELLY: I love birth stories like that. Yeah. That's fantastic. ANDREW: Yeah, for sure.  KELLY: So yeah, so this [00:24:16] is my guess, we got here, I'm like, how did we get here, fate versus free will and what's in the chart? And [24:24 not quite clear] really amazing.  ANDREW: Yeah, I definitely think so. So, I'm also very interested, because I've been following along [00:24:31] what's going on in the stars these days, even though, even though it sort of, on a personal level, astrology has shifted away from what was at one point a more professional folks into a more just kind of personal curiosity. You know, I got really curious [00:24:46] about: we have this big shift into into Taurus right now, right?  KELLY: We do.   KELLY: Big energy. KELLY: We're recording this just as Uranus, like a big explosive volcanic planet, has moved into Taurus, which is the most [00:25:01] fixed stubborn stable sign in the Zodiac. There's a real contradiction, if you like, in the symbolic imagery here, Uranus loves to shake things up. It literally is like earthquakes and volcanoes and lightning strikes and [00:25:16] Uranus is like the farmer in the field. He's just plowing year after year, so this is a huge-- We're starting this new kind of seven to eight year cycle that is going to radically reshape society, [00:25:31] culture, and individually, each of our lives as well.  ANDREW: Yeah, it's been, it's been interesting to watch sort of-- In my orbit, there's been a lot of people who've had a very [00:25:46] sort of disruptive shift go on in the last kind of, you know, like in the last few weeks, really, kind of you know, and it's sort of like, we're going along, I'm going this way. Oh, wait, what the hell am I doing? No, I'm [00:26:01] going to go this other way, you know? And it's such a, such an interesting shift to watch happen, you know, and to sort of, and also to try and roll with it, you know, because it's been-- A bunch of that's had an impact on me as well. So it's always, it's really [00:26:16] interesting to see it's going on everywhere. I'm like, all right, I'm gonna keep my eyes open, could be anywhere now, because it's the other thing about it. KELLY:  Well, that's-- I was talking about this with a client earlier this week, and they had something in, their chart is being activated by [00:26:31] Uranus, they're a little bit resistant as you know, everyone with planets. So if I back up a second, Uranus is moving into Taurus, so it is activating anyone with planets in the sign of Taurus, but the way the planetary aspect patterns [00:26:46] or energetic patterns work, while Uranus is in Taurus, it will also have a fairly dramatic impact on the other fixed modality signs, which include Leo, Scorpio, and Aquarius. So those four signs, Taurus, Leo, [00:27:01] Scorpio, and Aquarius are all quite activated but it does get a little more technical than that in the sense that Uranus moves quite slowly. And so we actually had a taste of Uranus in Taurus in 2018 between [00:27:16] May and November, but Uranus was only activating the first one or two degrees of Taurus in 2018.  This year in 2019, Uranus is going to activate all the way up to the first six degrees of Taurus. So [00:27:31] for people who might be familiar with their birth chart. Very specifically, if you have a planet between zero and six degrees of any of the fixed signs, so taught, you know, you could have, could be four Leo Well, three Scorpio or two Aquarius or five Taurus. [00:27:46] They're all getting that Uranus transit. And I was talking, I had a client this week who fell in that category, and they were very sort of resistant around: What if I don't want to make this change? what if I'm not ready to make this change? And [00:28:01] I kind of laughed because having worked with, you know, Uranus for many years, here is an indicator of that major kind of upheaval and change that leads to new freedoms and Independence. You know the Uranus change has a purpose, it leads [00:28:16] to new freedom, it leads to new authenticity, it leads to Independence. But if it's coming, it means that the shake-up, the time for the shake-up is now. And it can definitely surprise you.  And I have a personal story where last [00:28:31] summer in the northern summer, I was very frustrated with where we were living. I just had sort of done 10 years in a little small town and I was just a bit restless and bored, and what's next? and when can we go and live near the ocean again? And [00:28:46] and so my husband and I had some really big talks over the summer, and we pulled it apart, his career really has him here, and we came up with a plan by the end of the summer, this was all while Uranus was in Taurus, where we would move to the West Coast in two [00:29:01] years time, when he would retire. And I was like, that's great. You know, it wasn't as soon as I wanted, but it was sooner than he wanted. So we did that lovely relationship compromise and then like a month later, he came home and said, there's a job in [00:29:16] a whole other part of the world, that I think I'm going to apply for, and I was like, okay, well just apply and see, and anyway, long story short, it took a few months. There's a lot of interview processes and we found out that he's accepted the job and we're now going to be moving [00:29:31] literally in the opposite direction to where we thought we were going to move and that's how Uranus works. I felt the energy of being restless and bored and we started doing our lovely logical human brainstorming about how we could come up [00:29:46] with a practical plan and Uranus is like, you're on the right track, but I want to throw a few surprises into the mix, and so here's an unexpected out of the blue wild idea. Do you guys want to say yes to this? And we did. And that's [00:30:01] so what you're saying, Andrew, it works like almost scanning. Where is this Uranus thing coming from, even when you know to expect the unexpected, Uranus can still surprise you and you know, give you those curve balls. They can be very exciting and very liberating [00:30:16] but they will not be what you had thought.  ANDREW: Yeah, for sure. I feel like my experience so far of this energy is that I was thinking that I would be doing a lot more traveling and teaching over the coming while?  KELLY: Yep! [00:30:31]  ANDREW: And the shift in energy and the shift in circumstance over the last little bit and like right around now has, has gotten me canceling most of my travel plans, and being like, you know what, I think that, I think that what I [00:30:46] need to actually do is focus more on creation and focus more on like, sort of deepening the, the foundation of the store, and, and my work in regards to that, as opposed [00:31:01] to the sort of like, I'm going to go around and teach all over the place, which I love but it's like, it's like, no, that, that's not where you're going right now, and I'm like, all right.  KELLY: Yeah.  ANDREW: Fair enough.  KELLY: So did you have a relatively quick kind of you know, I set up [00:31:16] this schedule and then just a few months later, kind of changing it and reshaping things?  ANDREW: Yeah. I mean, it's really, some of the stuff has been set up for a while, but it's yeah, there's just been a bunch of projects and ideas that have been on the table that, that, [00:31:33] you know, starting, starting about, well really, starting at the start of this year, you know, sort of. So, I mean, I got divorced last year, and then, so I've been, you know, sort of like living separately now for about four [00:31:48] months by the time this goes live and I was just realizing that a) I'm kind of tired because it's been a lot, right? KELLY: Yeah. That's a lot to process, yeah. ANDREW: So there's that. B) My entire day to day living [00:32:03] situation has changed, you know, I have my kids half the time, you know, all my other work life tries to live in that sort of compressed other half time.  KELLY: Yep, three or four days a week.  ANDREW: Yeah, and, you know, and there's a lot more, oh, a [00:32:19] lot more, there's a lot of kind of running around that's a part of my life, you know, especially as my kids get bigger.  KELLY: Yes. ANDREW: You know, they're not big enough to be... KELLY: All the driving. The driving.  ANDREW: Yeah, or you know or like, taking them around, I mean, we live downtown so, you know, but they're, they're cool [00:32:34] to go. The older one's cool to go places they know, but if they're going anywhere new, they need us to take them, you know? KELLY: Yeah. ANDREW: So, it's like, all right, everybody's on the bus. Let's go here. Let's go there. Let's do whatever, right? KELLY: Yeah. ANDREW: And, and so all of those changes just made me realize [00:32:49] that, you know, I needed to kind of shift back to reassess my actual energies and that I also needed to kind of look at what's, [00:33:04] what am I what am I doing? And what am I hoping to get out of it? And does it make sense from that space, right? And so there are a bunch of things that I've been doing where, like, from a practical point of view, they seem like [00:33:19] they make sense but maybe more from an emotional point of view, I'm, I have some other agenda for being there that's not being met? KELLY: Yes. ANDREW: Around the growth of my career, around, you know, interconnection with people, around a bunch of different stuff, right? And once [00:33:34] I realized that discrepancy... And I was like, okay, so all of these things where I have an unofficial agenda, that's really my actual agenda, that is not in alignment with doing these things, I should stop that, you know? And, and [00:33:49] a lot of the travel was sort of geared around some of that stuff, right, you know, fun, escape, you know, status, whatever, I'm like, none of those things matter that much ultimately and if I want to have fun I should just go have fun. And if I want to like [00:34:04] escape, I should like, take a day off work and go do something, but like, traveling to go work somewhere else is not a way to accomplish those things, you know? KELLY: Yeah. Yeah. ANDREW: So.  KELLY: So this is great because it sounds like you're coming into a deeper sense of what [00:34:19] is authentic and real and right for you. And that's, you know, the whole pathway of Uranus is that it is, it awakens us, if you like, to things that might have been latent or forgotten or neglected, but the [00:34:34] chaos or the upheaval of of changing things is a really critical part. It's like there's almost a dare, a cosmic dare, you know, if you would like this level of authenticity, how much are you prepared to change in your life that's kind of on the fake end of [00:34:49] the spectrum, to really sit in that deeper sense of self.  ANDREW: Yeah. For sure, yeah, it corresponds with sort of a drive that I've been feeling as well. Like there are lots of parts of my life that I haven't [00:35:04] been public about. I mean, I haven't been secretive about them, but I haven't been like super public about them either? KELLY: Yeah.  ANDREW: And you know, so like, you know, being a polyamorous individual. It's a thing that people, if they know me, know about me, but it's not a thing that [00:35:19] I've sort of historically, you know, broadcast per se, right?  KELLY: Yeah. ANDREW: But also, I've been feeling like that's something that I wanted to change and so I actually recorded an episode, the episode previous to this is about poly, [00:35:34] polyamory and love and spirituality, you know, and so it's like, it's also that, right? Like what are the risks you're willing to take, right? What's, what are you willing to put in? How much discomfort are you, are you able to engage to get that authenticity? Right?  KELLY: [00:35:49] Well, and this is the key, is that there is some discomfort and that's a really beautiful way. Like what risks, what are you prepared to lose, or put on the line so that you can be more authentic? Are you prepared for people to maybe judge [00:36:04] you a little bit because you're owning your stuff? And Uranus is really correlated with things that are counter cultural or might be defined against society's norms as a little unconventional or atypical.  ANDREW: Yeah. KELLY: I always [00:36:19] think about Uranus in Taurus is like just letting your freak show out, like fly your flag, basically. We all have parts of ourselves--  ANDREW: Yeah. KELLY: That are a bit weird and a bit odd or bit unusual and when [00:36:35] Uranus shows up and really starts, because the last eight years we had Uranus in Aries. So there was a very specific type of Uranus vibration going on. And what I would say is, for most people, the last eight years brought a lot of that chaos [00:36:50] and call to authenticity. The next eight years probably won't be as strong for you, just because, you know, if you are activated by the areas or the cardinal sign piece, you may not have as much fixed signs, you know, in your life, but there is always a risk. There's always a level like [00:37:05] Uranus is like, how can you let the part of you that feels like a black sheep be more on display more of the time, you know, if you think you're wearing red when everyone else is wearing white, how can you embrace that part of you? So. ANDREW: Yeah.  KELLY: It's wild, I mean and Uranus [00:37:20] in Taurus has some pretty specific collective themes that I think we're going to see as well. I don't know if you looked into those.  ANDREW: Well, I'm, I listen to you and Chris and... KELLY: Austin. [00:37:35]  ANDREW: Austin, I was going to say Aidan, and I'm like, no Aidan is a person who's on my podcast, Austin, on The Astrology Podcast where you do a-- It's a great thing, you should go check it out. There's lots of good stuff about it. The episodes that I listen to are [00:37:50] the sort of monthly forecast episodes where the three of you discuss what's coming and so, you know, I heard the discussions about, about that and the other elements, you know, that sort of tie it into maybe a bunch of economic change and other stuff [00:38:05] that might be coming. So, but yeah, if you want to share some of that I would love to hear it here too.  KELLY: Yeah, I just thought, I mean, I always love the personal because I really love working at the individual level, but I know, people are often interested in the collective. So, the last time we had Uranus in Taurus was from about the mid [00:38:20] 1930s to the early 1940s. So we did have Uranus, I just to give people some context, Uranus is in Taurus about every 84 years. So we had that period early in the 20th century and then the time previous to that was like 1850s [00:38:35] kind of mutant 19th century and some of the things that happened globally in one or another of those periods, the mid-1850s, mid-nineteenth century period, was the gold rush, where we had this idea of like mining, [00:38:50] literally blowing up parts of the earth, which is Taurus. The blowing up part is Uranus, and we would, people were discovering gold or precious metals from the land, so there is definitely an environmental component to Uranus in Taurus, around [00:39:05] what are we doing to the land, the environment? What kind of an impact does that have, is it having?  Unfortunately, you know, there may be some innovation in how the land is created or mind or what have you that may not be, that may be destructive [00:39:20] initially. So I'm not saying it's all perfect in that 1930s, early 1940s period: food, manufacturing, really, took off. A lot of what we call sort of modern food manufacturing, the food technologies were really developed [00:39:35] then. Some of those were fantastic and some of those things were relatively quickly proved to be actually quite dangerous. So, you know, every innovation that comes through around safe food, whether it's food production, food cloning, food [00:39:50] development, that type of thing, some of them are going to be great, that we'll want to keep around and others, you just, keep your wits about you but-- The other thing that's really different: Taurus is a feminine sign. It's ruled by Venus and it tends to be associated with [00:40:05] feminine type archetypes or feminine type people in society. And historically, there have been a lot of technological developments that have freed up women and changed women's roles in society when we've had Uranus in [00:40:20] Taurus.  So things like washing machines or sewing machines or spinning looms have been developed in previous Uranus in Taurus cycles, you know, which was typically sort of woman's work with air quotes. And so, if it would normally take you four hours to [00:40:35] do something by hand and now you can use this, use this gadget and get it done in an hour, it gives you back your time. So there is something about Uranus in terms of freeing up time. And you know, one of the big things in that, the, because the [00:40:50] last time Uranus was in Taurus was through World War II, and one of the changes around sort of gender roles that happened then was so many young men sent away to war in many sort of English and first world societies, at the time, women [00:41:05] were allowed to leave the home and the domestic setting to go and fill some of the working job roles that were previously run by men or taken by men. So women got this taste of their own independence. They tried on different roles. [00:41:20] Of course, you know, the men came back from war and then the women were kind of sent back from the offices to their domestic duties if you like, but those women were the mothers of the women who-- mothers, sometimes grandmothers, [00:41:35] of the women who then really got very involved in the 1960s liberation that went on.  So you can see some of these seeds of larger cyclical change that can come through. So just with Taurus being a [00:41:50] little bit more of a feminine sign ruled by Venus, the sign where the Moon is exalted. So the, two sort of typically feminine planets, nurturing, you know, anything to do with people who identify as feminine and, and whether that creates limits or opportunities [00:42:05] in society, and a lot of stuff I suspect also to do with women and childbirth and child-rearing basically, so there are some really key collective themes that we can keep an eye on.  ANDREW: Yeah. Over the, [00:42:20] well, I think, I think it'll be interesting to see how those play out. I mean, I think that we can easily look at what's gone on in the last few years as setting the stage for that, right? Like the emergence, you know, of the me [00:42:35] too movement, you know, in the spiritual communities, the sort of rise of witchcraft and being a witch and the way in which that empowers the feminine often, you know, in a broader sense of definitely a lot of women in particular senses, [00:42:50] you know, I mean, I think that there's, there's lots of layers where, where I can sort of see that energy being ready for a change on some level, and you know, yeah, we'll see where that is.  KELLY: Yeah. Yeah. I mean and I was saying, you know, [00:43:05] I've said to one client this week, you know, it's the idea of, watch this space. You know, Uranus, we know is going to pave new inroads and new types of innovation, new types of technology, 3D printing is a massive Uranus in Taurus thing, the idea that out of the ethos [00:43:20] we can create material objects, but you know, watch the space, just be open, the Innovations are going to surprise all of us, even those of us that are expecting them.   ANDREW: Well, they always do, right?  KELLY: Yeah. ANDREW: They always do. Yeah. Yeah, I was [00:43:35] just thinking the other day about about my cell phone and about, for some reason I was talking about the, back when I had a pager, to my kids, right? And they've never known any of those technologies. And they're like, what do you mean? Like someone would just send you their phone number and then you'd just call them? [00:43:50] And I'm like yeah, that was it worked, you know? And that wasn't that long ago. I mean, it was a while ago now, but it's not that long ago, right?  KELLY: It's just been that, in our lifetime, Andrew. I mean, I don't know, I think you and I are relatively similar ages. Like when I was a kid, we were on a rotary [00:44:05] phone still? ANDREW: For sure. Yeah.  KELLY: Yeah. It's really interesting. Alan Turing, who is a code breaker who worked in England, in Bletchley Park, decoding the German codes, funnily enough in World War II, he was [00:44:21] this mad kind of technological guy. He had a very prominent Uranus in his chart. So he's kind of relevant to what's being talked about. He had this image in the late 1940s. He imagined a day where women would be walking around the park [00:44:36] with their computers in their hand. And that was quite striking to me when I read that because that's essentially what we do these days with our phones. There's so powerful that they are I mean, you can store files and record video and interact [00:44:51] with, you know, people halfway around the world, and the phones we have today are better than the computers of the 50s, basically. So it is phenomenal. ANDREW: I mean, they're better than the computers of our childhood too, right?  KELLY: Well, exactly! Those big... [Traces the shape of a big computer with her hands.]  ANDREW: Think about my  big 20-year, [00:45:06] my early PCs, or whatever, right? I mean, those things, you know, they didn't even have color monitors, you know? KELLY: No! We played black-and-white Pac-Man, basically.  ANDREW: Yeah. Yeah.  KELLY: Yeah, I remember being in like, I don't know grade three or four in primary school and there was [00:45:21] one computer in the classroom and each student, you paired up with a buddy and you each had about 20 minutes, you know, whenever computer time was, and all you did was play games. I guess it was just to familiarize us with the fact that these things existed.  ANDREW: Yeah. [00:45:36]  KELLY: But that's you know, that's the late 80s. That's a while ago now.  ANDREW: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I had a Vic-20 and we, I was very excited, that I would spend like a long time doing programming and then I would run the program and it would like change the screen color. [00:45:51] And it was exciting and exuberant and then I, and then I would record my program onto the data storage unit, which was a cassette tape-- KELLY: Oh, my goodness! ANDREW: And it would like record it onto the cassette tape, right?  KELLY: You could put a computer program on [00:46:06] a cassette tape back then because the-- Oh, my lord.  ANDREW: Because they were so small, right? Like it was just text, right? Yeah. So funny, right?  KELLY: Oh my God. Yeah.  ANDREW: All right. Well now that I feel old. [laughing] KELLY: I know, now that we've made ourselves really feel middle-aged, [00:46:21] nurse? Yeah, it'll be fun. It'll be fun, yeah.  ANDREW: So, is there anything else that is coming up that you're, that you're, inspired about?  KELLY: Yeah, there is one thing that [00:46:37] I'm really excited about.  ANDREW: Yeah. KELLY: And this is the great conjunction between Jupiter and Saturn that is happening in December of 2020 in the sign of Aquarius. It's a very nerdy type of timing cycle. It's currently being completely overshadowed on [00:46:52] the astrological airwaves because everybody's focused on the Saturn Pluto conjunction in early...  ANDREW: Sure. KELLY: Which does have, I'm not saying it's not important. I'm just saying, personally, I'm more interested in the Jupiter Saturn. Jupiter and Saturn conjunct every 20 years, [00:47:07] but every couple of hundred years and, well, the thing is, every 20 years, they make these conjunctions in signs of the same element. So we have this elemental, you know, 200-year-cycle, and the conjunction in December [00:47:22] 2020 is really officially the start of the, air grand mutation, if you like. And so the last couple of hundred years, we have had Earth Jupiter Saturn conjunction. So we had a lot of Earth-based focus [00:47:37] collectively. We've had the Industrial Revolution. We've had structured work days. There's been a huge focus on money and mining and accumulation.  And the air period is very much about ideas, movement, and interaction. So that's kicking off [00:47:52] December 2020 for the next 200 years. So for all of us alive now, we are going to witness this massive collective shift over the Air, out of the Earth element that has really governed so much of human experience since the [00:48:07] early 1800s. And we're going to be a witness to this change, which the type of technologies we were just talking about is a huge part of.  The last time we had the Air elemental 200-year period, late 1100s, all [00:48:22] through the 1200s and most of the 1300s. Now, that was actually considered to be sort of the very first start of what then became known as the Renaissance. But in that time frame, we had these weird technologies like paper manufacturing being [00:48:37] perfected. And so the idea with Air is that we're talking about ideas and the dissemination of ideas. Astrology actually went through a massive rebirth in that time period, pre the official Italian Renaissance. And [00:48:52] I think what we're going to see is, ideas or philosophies are going to become more of a focus and they're going to spread more. We're also going to have people moving around a lot more. There was a lot of invasions [00:49:07] that happened in that time frame where people spread out with their ideas more. The big disease that happened through that time frame, of course, was the Black Plague, which is an airborne disease. So the idea, at the end of 2020, as we start this Air [00:49:22] period, where everything is to do with the mind, to do with the intellect, and to do with technology, and to do with the dissemination of ideas becomes much more. And it's hard to imagine how it becomes more than what it has become already, but it is going, is going to be faster accelerations [00:49:37] there. And then I think you know from a disease perspective, those types of airborne issues are also something we're going to need to be more mindful of, so yeah, so a few hundred year chapter. ANDREW: Time to double [00:49:52] down on getting your flu shot! [laughs]  KELLY: Yeah, flu shots, you know, when you think about how mobile people are becoming, in the sense that we don't all go to 9 to 5 jobs in specific locations anymore. That's a very Earth kind of thing to do, [00:50:07] and also, you know, this podcasting. I mean, it's the radio of the modern era, but it is about-- Like I think podcasting is just going to get more and more popular, anything that's online, that involves the sharing of ideas or insight or [00:50:22] wisdom is just going to explode. We haven't even touched the tip of it yet, basically. ANDREW: Yeah. It's an exciting time to be alive. KELLY: Exciting time to be alive. I don't know that it bodes well for things like banking industries or credit systems, because I think they're going to go [00:50:37] through a massive upheaval, but that's... We're probably due for that.  ANDREW: Yeah, I think so. I think that, yeah, I mean, I hear every single year that the banks here make more money than they've ever made before. [00:50:52]  KELLY: Yeah.  ANDREW: And I'm just like, how is that even possible? And, you know, and the answer is well, you know, there was a time where having a bank account meant that you accrued money on your, on your savings, [00:51:08] you know, but the idea now, like, you know the amount of fees and this, that, whatever, there's no way, you know, unless you have heaps and heaps of money in there, that, you know, anybody's going to be making any money off of a bank account. So, you know, so those dynamics are going to, you [00:51:23] know, shift again at some point, right? So.  KELLY: Absolutely, and we're seeing that a little bit with alternative payment process and alternative money transfer options, you know... ANDREW: Yeah.  KELLY: Back in the day, we had to go to what, Western Union, to send money internationally. And now, [00:51:38] there are companies, and I, we use one called Transferwise, which allows you to send money if... There's more of a mobility here that the banks don't have the monopoly that they used to. Now look, they still have a massive monopoly, and they're making huge amounts of money.  ANDREW: Sure. KELLY: But [00:51:53] you're seeing more of these little startups popping up that I think are going to become increasingly popular. Venmo, I think, is really popular in the states, that type of thing.  ANDREW: Yeah. Well, even, even PayPal and you know, Apple's integrating it [00:52:08] directly into the, directly into the phone, so you can just text people money and stuff, like it's all changing, right?  KELLY: That's, that's the thing, like you used to have to go and get cold hard currency and nobody has...  ANDREW: Right?  KELLY: ....physical cash anymore, money is just a number on a computer [00:52:23] screen.  ANDREW: Yeah, you don't even have to talk to people anymore. [laughs] KELLY: You don't! I mean, you know, you go to a bank, and nowadays there's more machines than there are people because of the automation, if you like.  ANDREW: Yeah, for sure. KELLY: That's something I think we're [00:52:38] going to have to work on as a human race, is humans get something from being physically with other humans that we can't duplicate, you know, and even doing things like this where we're online and we can see each other. It's great, and it's a, it's a functional [00:52:53] substitute, but it cannot replace the exchange of multiple levels of energy that happen when you're physically in person. And so I think that's going to be almost our goal, is we have to still come together in the flesh, [00:53:08] even though we don't have to any more.  ANDREW: Yeah. So take away from this episode: go hang with your peoples.  KELLY: Yeah. ANDREW: Watch your money.  KELLY: Yeah.  ANDREW: And if and if a company called Skynet comes and wants to sell you some robots, say no thank you because [00:53:23] nobody needs a Terminator showing up at their house later on.  KELLY: Right, nobody needs a terminator. ANDREW: Well. Thank you so much for making time to hang out with me today. It's been so nice to catch up. For people who want to come and follow you. I mean, I already mentioned [00:53:38] The Astrology Podcast and that thing, which I'll put a link to in the show notes, but where else are you hanging out, where should people come and find you to be in your orbits?  KELLY: Yeah. Look, if anyone does want to, follow along if you like. My main [00:53:53] website is KellysAstrology.com, but you can also find me on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. I'm a little bit chatty on Twitter occasionally. It is actually my preferred social media platform. Like, I know that sort of sound and I'm not, that's weird these days. in addition to [00:54:08] the monthly episode on The Astrology Podcast, I also do a weekly show with two Aussie girlfriends called the Water Trio Astrology Podcast, and you can find that, as well as The Astrology Podcast on SoundCloud, iTunes, and YouTube.  Coming up at the end of March [00:54:23] is my next online training class on career and life direction in astrology. So the idea here is, I'll be showing you how to answer the question of what should I do with my life and that's a four-part training. There will be a live weekly class initially, but it will also be all online, [00:54:38] and one of the new offerings that I just started last year that's been really popular is my monthly astrology guide service, which is a subscription-based offering where you get details about every astrology aspect happening every week and every month. So if [00:54:53] you're kind of obsessed with astrology and you want to follow along at home with your own chart, that resource provides all the info you need. Everything that you might need on any of those counts can be found on my homepage of my website, KellysAstrology.com.  ANDREW: Awesome. [00:55:08]  KELLY: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Andrew, it's been great to chat.  ANDREW: Oh, thank you for being here.

....An in depth look at celebrities actions and why they do such ass backwards things....

Want to know how I started out on my sacred business journey as a Crystal Healer & Teacher?   I get so many students asking me to share my story of how I started my healing business. So this week I'm sharing a special behind the scenes look at my sacred business journey, how I got started and how I got to where I am today. I know so many of my Love & Light students are on their own paths to creating beautiful, sacred businesses. But many of you are on the fence about whether you should follow you heart and take your business full-time. It can be so scary sometimes, but I want to encourage you with my own personal sacred business success story. I'm here to tell you - the world needs you to share YOUR special gifts! You have to follow your heart and the clues from the universe... Healing work is what you are meant to do - that's what the signs are telling you. You can listen in to the podcast above, or watch a special video interview below where I share my story. Enjoy! Looking for more spiritual business advice? Check out my FREE Crystals for Business eBook! YES PLEASE! SIGN ME UP Interview: Kelly: Hi everybody and welcome! Today we've got Ashley Leavy with us and she is the founder of the Love & Light School of Crystal Therapy. Hi Ashley, welcome! Ashley: Hi Kelly! Thanks so much for having me. Kelly: Thanks for being here. I've been really looking forward to this interview. Ashley: Me too. I know we’ve had it planned for a little while, and I’m just so excited to dive in today and share with everyone. Kelly: Yeah, great. So tell us a little bit about your story and how this all came about for you. I know you’ve got this amazing school now. How did you get from where you started to what you are doing now? Ashley: You know, if I look back I never ever would have guessed where things were going to take me. It was one of those things where I was really just, sort of, kind of, following the doors of the universe opening for me, following the breadcrumbs, so to speak, from one thing to the next.  And I'm so happy that I, kind of, listened to those little gentle nudges that I was getting because I couldn't have asked to be in a better, happier place in my life and in my business. So, for me this journey really started all the way back when I was a little girl... I was always interested in crystals and I would spend a lot of time with my grandfather, and he had a really large mineral collection. We'd sit in his study and he'd show me different things about the crystals and tell me about them and that was a really special time for me. You know of course when I became a teenager I got a little too cool for that stuff and, kind of, took a step back from it. It was really in my early twenties that I started to kind of reconnect and rediscover that part of myself and found that I was really looking for some deeper spiritual meaning in my life. I had done quite a bit of self-study up until that point, learning what I could from books and from, kind of, scouring all corners of the internet.  And it wasn't until 2007 that I actually took my first professional crystal healing training with an instructor. And that was a huge transformational moment in my life! Because I finally got to really experience what it was like to learn about crystals, to share about them in a group setting, and it was, kind of, that fork-in-the-road moment for me. Because I had actually been finishing up my degree at the University of Wisconsin in botany. I had a degree in horticulture, but there was a lot of, kind of, family and societal pressure to go do something that was going to make more money.  So everyone said, you know, go back to school, do the botany degree. So I was kind of on this path to something that didn't really resonate with me at a soul level. I mean, it was kind of like, at that point I could go have this career in botany where I was making genetically modified organisms for Monsanto o...

  Kelly: Hello, this is Kelly Coughlin, CEO of BankBosun. Today we're going to launch a series of podcasts on community banks and the role they have played in our history and the future. Community banks are critical to a community's social and economic ecosystem. I use the term ecosystem carefully and intentionally to describe a system of inter-connected elements formed by the interaction of a community with their environment, and in terms of a social and economic community, in my mind community banks are critical members of that ecosystem. That brings me to this podcast series, in which we're going to focus on community banks. In this series we're talking to a number of executives who are leaders in community banking, and I'm asking them to make community banks more fun and interesting. I think I used the term “humanize” community banks. The community bank has been around a long time. From the Revolutionary War in Massachusetts to the Santa Fe Trail in Kansas; expansions and contractions, recessions and depressions, community banks have seen it all. With that in mind, I have one of those leaders, Sammie Dixon, CEO of Prime Meridian Bank in Tallahassee, Florida. He's not been around since the Revolutionary War, I don't think, but he has seen a lot. Sammie, are you on the line there? Sammie: I am. Kelly: Have you been around since the Revolutionary War, Sammie? Sammie: No, I barely made the '60s. Kelly: Barely made the '60s, excellent.  Sammie, I wanted to talk to you because when I look at your bio and some of the community involvement…I looked at all the involvement that you guys have…and I counted nearly 50 organizations, whether it be the Treehouse of Florida, Toys for Tots, Young Actors Theatre, Good News Outreach, Holy Comforter School, Lee's Place, Opening Nights. I'm not sure what Opening Nights is but..., you've got Florida Tax Watch. You've got over 50 organizations that you guys support one way or another. Talk to me about that. Sammie: Well, Kelly, there was a famous banker here in town by the name of Godfrey Smith, that always stated that a healthy community makes a healthy bank. And if you take care of the community, then the bank will be taken care of, if you're providing good service and charging good, honest rates, paying people good rates, and just making sure that the well-being of each individual client and the community as a whole is taken care of. Kelly: Kind of jumping forward here, what happens in a community when a community bank ends up getting acquired by a national bank or a large regional bank? Does that go away do you think? Sammie: It does to some extent. You've got someone outside of the individual community that really doesn't understand what's important, making decisions or providing budgets to the local leadership of that regional or money center bank. And they cannot react as quickly to the needs of the community. Whereas your community banks are able to really provide a nimble outlook. And by that I mean that if there's something happening that needs to be taken care of. The decision can be made within 5 minutes and let's get the problem squared away, from supporting one of the individual not-for-profits that are providing services to our community to the hospitals, the school system. It's having that ability to make a decision on the ground floor. Kelly: That's a segue into maybe the bigger picture here. That dynamic doesn't just relate to non-profit involvement, but it gets at the for-profit activities that a bank is involved in. When you're not part of that community, you can't respond as quickly, whether it be granting a commercial loan or that sort of thing. Talk about that a little bit. How is that impacted? Sammie: Every business is nothing more than a story with substance behind it. Having people and having the executive leadership having the opportunity to not only listen and hear the story, but live it. You get to see what they do each and every day and you're able to make decisions and make judgments in extending credit; what type of depository services they need; and there's nothing about a story that fits in a box. Every one of them is different. Every individual character, if you want to say, within the story is different. Having that ability to take the time, sit down, understand what the story is and where it's going, gives us an opportunity to make very quick and rational decisions that helps each individual business that then helps the community. Kelly: You mentioned story. What's your story? What's Prime Meridian's story? Sammie: Well, Prime Meridian Bank is a newer bank, one of the last in the state of Florida to get chartered. We opened our doors February 4th, 2008. We initially capitalized with about $12.9 million dollars. We have now since grown in excess of $275 million, over the last 8 years. We decided to start the bank, myself and Chris Jensen, and we thought we could provide service to our clientele, and decisions that would help them move more prudently and faster. Kelly: You saw a need specifically in the Tallahassee market? Sammie: We did. We thought that we could provide service and compete with everybody in town. We didn't have a group of people come together and say, "Let's start a bank." We put our story together and put our model together, and went to individual business leaders within town, here in Tallahassee and said, "We're going to start a bank we'd like you to be a part of," and that was the genesis of Prime Meridian Bank. Kelly: Was there a lot of consolidation and acquisitions that had gone on prior to that, and so that kind of created this market opportunity for you guys? Sammie: No. You had several community banks here in town already, most of your southeastern regional banks and your money center bank. We just thought there was an opportunity for us to come in and provide a little different level of service that would make us a profitable entity and serve Tallahassee very well. Kelly: Let's talk about the name Prime Meridian. You do know that you're not on the Prime Meridian? You do know that you're 84 degrees west, right? Sammie: I do, but the Prime Meridian for all metes and bounds in the state of Florida is here in Tallahassee. Kelly: Oh, got it. Sammie: If you look at the Prime Meridian, what is it? It's a starting point of the metes and bounds here for the state of Florida, and starting point of time, or the starting point of a new financial institution. The Meridian line is an unwavering line going over the Earth. We're unwavering in our outlook and care of our shareholder's money, but more importantly, our clients. Kelly: The Brits claimed Greenwich was the Prime Meridian. They don't own that, so you'd redefine Tallahassee to be the Prime Meridian. Sammie: At least for a new financial institution. Kelly: Very good. Continue with the evolution of the bank and the challenges you've faced in the past, as you went from de novo Bank? You didn't acquire another bank, right? Sammie: Right. Several things that we're proud of through the evolution of our company. Number one, which goes back to the quality of our team. When we started our bank, the average startup cost was about $800,000. The day that we opened the doors and took the write-off to capital for the expenses, we wrote off $395,000. That goes to the knowledge and expertise of our team of not having to hire a lot of consultants, and understanding each and every thing that we did. Going on to 2012, four years after we opened, we looked around with the team that we had, and realized that we could do our own data items processing. Instead of having a service bureau that was processing our checks, we decided we would do it ourselves. That added an immediate $8,500 a month to the bottom line. Kelly: Wow. Sammie: That same year, we also became cumulatively profitable. That was pretty exciting for us. And then in December 11th of 2013, we became an effective SEC registered company and then started listing our stock in 2015 on the OTCQX. So those are some of the things that we have done and we're very, very proud of. Dealing with the SEC, we went through a full review, when we filed our S1, our initial going public document. Our comment letter back from the SEC was simply 2 1/2 pages, which goes to say just how good our team is, and how detailed we are in each and every thing that we do. Kelly: Yeah. I know access to capital has been good once you go public, but it's quite a task to a) go public, and b) maintain that. The requirements are immense as you know. Was it worth it, do you think? Sammie: Absolutely. We went public for 3 reasons. Number one is we could raise our capital the way that we wanted to. We didn't have to worry about an accredited offering or anything of that nature. Number two is we're looking to grow the company and grow outside of the Tallahassee MSA, and if we do that we want to have a currency that we can use. In order to have your stock act as a currency, you've got to have a market for it, and the only way to do that was to be an SEC registered trading company. Then number three, when we decided to do it, our bank is still very clean. We do not have many non-performings or any crazy things on the books. It would never be easier to go through and do it. And we look at it like these days, with capital, you can't say, "Okay, we're going to go buy someone or do something. Now let's go get approval and say, 'Okay, if you give us approval we'll get the capital.'" You've got to have capital already on hand. There's no more just in time capital. And the same way we look at it is there's no just in time human capital. Kelly: Let's talk about human capital for a minute. How challenging is it for you to compete for new talent and retain existing talent with the compensation structure that community banks have to deal with? Sammie: Well, Kelly, that's been one of our strong points. When we started the bank in 2008, we were the new kids on the block. Nobody knew us. All we had was a story. It was nothing but air. So going out and getting the top absolute talent was difficult. People had their banks, things were going well. So we decided that we would start building our own bankers. And being here in Tallahassee and having Florida State and FAMU and TCC here, gave us the opportunity to go get a lot of talented younger folks to bring in, that had the capacity, train them, educate them. And one thing that we've done is we've been very transparent with our team. Up until we went public, we went through our financials with our entire team once a month. Now that we're a publicly traded company, we do it once a quarter. But giving them the exposure, I cannot give them experience, but giving them the exposure to what we're doing, why we're doing it, and how we're doing it, is as important as finding experienced people. And our entire culture is surrounded by a one-word question and that's “why”. Any teller, relationship manager, operations person, whoever, can ask me or anybody in the bank why are we doing something. And that causes two things. Number one, the hardest thing to get people to do is think. If they're asking you questions, then they're thinking. And if you answer their questions: Why did we go public? Why did we raise capital? Why are we looking to acquire banks? What does that mean to the bottom line? Now, all of the sudden you've created an inclusive ecosystem, as you say, that people can buy-in. The biggest thing people want is to be a part of something, and what we've afforded a lot of folks to do is come in and be a part of building something from the foundation up. And constantly giving them that transparency of what we're doing and why we're doing it, is very, very inclusive. And we listen. I can't tell a teller how to make a teller line more efficient. So if I can't listen to what they're doing like I ask them to listen to me and do what I say. If we don't have a partnership there, we're not going to get any better. That's the number one. Number two, if someone asks me a question. Why are we doing this? and I can't answer it, then I might need to rethink what I'm doing. Does that make sense? Kelly: It certainly does. Have you used non-qualified benefit plans as part of that overall compensation structure? This is not a pitch for that. I was just curious if you'd ever talked about that. Sammie: Yes. We're in the process of looking at our entire compensation structure now, and figuring out how to better enhance it to a) retain, b) attract, and c) incentivize. Kelly: So say another side of say the balance sheet, since we're talking about that, municipal bonds. Anything that you've seen change here since the 2008 Dodd-Frank and all this other stuff of municipal bond rating agencies? Have you guys had to modify any of your practices on that? Sammie: We're using a third party right now to monitor our municipal portfolio. So in the old days of just buying bonds and putting them on the books, we actually have a quarterly review of all of our municipalities. Kelly: So you've had to upgrade that since the regulatory changes? Sammie: We have. And I don't think it's all that bad from the standpoint that you look at a lot of municipalities out there that are having weakness due to the down-turn, and the one thing that we have made the decision from day one, is we take risk, and there's risk in everything you do, but we take the real risk in our loan portfolio. We do not want any risk in our investment portfolio. We're looking at it as simply a hedge against interest rates, and also as just a liquidity source. Kelly: Well then you better load up with bank-owned life insurance. You've got about 50% of your financial assets in muni’s and I like the lower balance sheet risk that BOLI offers. That’s another discuss with you and Glenn. What's the future look like for community banking in general, threats that you see, opportunities? For example, 80% of millennials haven't even walked into a bank before. Sammie: Let's stop right there for a second and talk about the millennials for a minute. Number one, I talked about how we hire and what we do. The average age of our bank is 38. The average age of our management team is 41. As far as dealing with millennials and all, one thing most people have forgotten is most millennials have yet to start a company. A lot of them, due to the recession, still live with their parents. So therefore, they really haven't needed to walk into a bank. Now a lot of the millennials that we have found, and we talk with, and we do this a lot. They want to be a part of something. And they're much more community driven and doing something for the greater good. Once you are able to show them from a teammate standpoint what we're doing, they buy in. Once they actually need something other than just a regular checking account, i.e. buy their first house; buy a business or trying to finance the start of a business, they need to sit down and talk with someone who understands the market. And we have found, we've been very successful with millennials. Now we're not out there with everything online, rocket mortgage and things of that nature. We're finding a lot of success dealing with the millennials. What that comes back to is we generally don't get them until they need something. And every individual, every household is nothing different than a story too. Where's your income coming from? Is it going to be sustainable? Can you afford whatever asset you're trying to purchase? That has been very, very beneficial to us. As far as whether or not banks are going to be here, I've talked with bankers that go back to the '60s that said the community bank's not going to be around much longer. Well, as long as you have people, there's a certain segment of the population that wants to talk with people, when it comes to their financial situation. Coming up from a small town in south Georgia, and growing up the 3 most important people in the town was your doctor, your preacher, and your banker; your health care, your faith care, and your financial care. And you generally didn't do that via an email. I truly believe that there will always be a place for the community bank. Now with the regulations and thought process out there, there's going to be fewer and fewer community banks due to the fact that what we're required to do. We're operating in most cases from an asset-liability standpoint, overall balance sheet management standpoint, like a larger bank. However, we don't have the economies of scale to do it. So we have to be more innovative and more nimble. And that goes right down to talking with your regulators on a consistent basis to understanding what the rules are. If you're going to form a hospital, or if you're going to start a power company, there's regulations you have to abide by. As a community banker, you had better understand the rules and abide by them or find something else to do. That's just the approach that we've taken. And it creates a lot less heartache and stress, when you come at it from that standpoint, versus saying, "The regulators are going to kill me." Regardless what they're going to do, they're going to do it. So you better find out or figure a way to cope with it. Kelly: Great. What's the biggest threat, other than let's say cyber-security risk, which probably keeps you up at night…other than that, what's the biggest risk or fear that you have, say for the next 10 years? Sammie: As we expand, finding the human capital, finding the talent, the teammates. Kelly: Really? Sammie: The human capital. Kelly: So in Tallahassee or in some of your outlying branches? You have access to plenty of talent there, right? Sammie: There is a good supply, and it's just finding the right people that believe in what we believe in. Our culture is the most important aspect of what we do each and every day, and I go back to the question “why”. If you're questioning why we're doing something, some people look at that as somewhat of a negative. We look at it as a positive, because if you cannot explain what's going on, and you cannot understand it, then the “how” really doesn't matter. Kelly: What's the biggest opportunity that you see? What gets you up every morning after you've had a sleepless night worrying about cyber-security risks? What gets you going? Sammie: The opportunity to grow, to build our franchise here within Tallahassee; the opportunities outside of Tallahassee. Within our investor presentation, we show that we don't want to go any further north than Macon, south of Ocala, east of the Atlantic and west of the eastern border of the state of Mississippi. That is south Alabama, south Georgia, and north Florida. The opportunities to be there are endless. And that is something to get excited about and get out of bed every day, and figuring out a new challenge to go build upon. Kelly: That's great. All right. In closing, I always like to ask either your favorite quote and/or the stupidest thing you've done in your business career. Sammie: I will give you my favorite quote, and it's on our boardroom wall, and it is by a retired General, Eric Shinseki, who has been re-retired. The quote is, "If you do not like change, you are going to like irrelevance even less." Shinseki is the most recent former head of the VA. He's pretty irrelevant right now. Kelly: I would say so. Alright. Very good. Anything else you want to add Sammie, or should we sign it off? Sammie: You tell me. Thank you. Kelly: I think we're good. Thank you very much for your time. It was a pleasure talking to you. I wish you well, Sammie. Stay safe! And that’s it for my interview with Sammie Dixon from Prime Meridian Bank in Tallahassee, Florida. Thank you.

Introduction: Kelly Coughlin is CEO of BankBosun, a management consulting firm helping bank C-Level Officers navigate risk and discover reward. He is the host of the syndicated audio podcast, BankBosun.com. Kelly brings over 25 years of experience with companies like PWC, Lloyds Bank, and Merrill Lynch. On the podcast Kelly interviews key executives in the banking ecosystem to provide bank C-Suite officers, risk management, technology, and investment ideas and solutions to help them navigate risks and discover rewards.   And now your host, Kelly Coughlin.   Kelly: Good morning. This is Kelly Coughlin. I've got David Shoemaker on the line. We’re going to do a podcast with David. He's the President of Equias Alliance.   David: Good morning.   Kelly: Good morning David. How you doing?   David: I am well.   Kelly: Just to kind of lay the foundation here I thought we’d talk very briefly about my relationship with David and Equias. As David knows, I'm a CPA. I've been in the investment and banking ecosystem for many years and as part of a consulting gig about a year and a half ago I came across the BOLI industry, the bank owned life insurance industry, and then Equias Alliance. I decided at that time, after looking at this asset class, that this is a space I wanted to get into. And I looked at the competitors, once I decided I liked the product, and decided who are the competitors, Equias, in my mind, rose above everybody else out there.     It wasn’t just me that thought that. I believe American Bankers Association selected Equias as their endorsed vendor. I think another dozen or state banking associations also selected them. Is that a fair statement?   David: Ten of them.   Kelly: Ten, clearly they emerged in my mind and in other’s mind as the key player out there. I met with David and I found him to be a key player in the industry, so I thought I'd do a podcast disclosing that I have an independent consultant relationship with David’s company, Equias. I thought we’d do a podcast and talk about first of all just give us a brief background on who you are, how you got into this space, some background and then we’ll talk about the product generally and how you got into this space and what your take is on that. You want to kick it off with some brief bio on who you are?   David: I graduated from the University of Tennessee, Knoxville with a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration, with a major in accounting, then worked for Deloitte Touche for nine years and an investment banking firm for three years. Then, while I was in investment banking, one of my clients was looking at an insurance product and asked me to help evaluate it knowing that I was a CPA technical type.     I liked what I saw, but what I didn’t like was that, it had a four percent front-end load charge. I thought it was a good asset class, but if we could get rid of the load charge we could make it very viable for banks to want to use as an asset class. I've been in bank owned life insurance and nonqualified differed comp for the last twenty-seven years now. I've worked with hundreds of banks over that period of time. I live in Memphis. I have a wife and six children. There’s a lot to do on a daily basis just keeping up with the family.   Kelly: All right, taking from your statement that you saw what was going in the market, the four percent front-end load. Let's elaborate on that because my understanding based on discussion with others including yourself is that you were one of the early pioneers of crafting the product offering as it is right now. What was the need in the market at that time? Give us a general year when that was. Then, where was the gap in products available and the products needed by the bank? What did you see at that time?   David: The year was 1989. There were several products available in the market, but they all had loads of between two and four percent. That means if you purchased a million dollars of BOLI asset and you had even a two percent load that was a $20,000 initial reduction of your cash value. You’d have to reduce your earnings and capital by $20,000 per million. I saw that as a hindrance to banks wanting to buy that asset.     So my partner at the time, who was an attorney, and I decided we could go to insurance carriers and see if they could provide a product that had no-loads which would be more viable for a bank. During that process we found that there's more to it than we’d initially understood. The carriers have to pay a premium tax to the state which generally averages about two percent. Then the federal government has a tax called the DAC or Deferred Acquisition Cost tax that effectively costs around a point and a quarter.     Carriers at time were not comfortable with essentially front ending that asset to give a hundred percent credit after they paid the taxes because they would potentially lose the money if the policy didn’t remain on the books. It took a fair amount of discussion and a fair amount of time, but my partner and I were able to convince four carriers to do no-load contracts.     At that time, I guess there were two other firms that we knew of in the business. They were Bank Compensation Strategies who pioneered the business and then there was Benmark. They were the primary players in, it wasn’t called BOLI then, the bank owned life insurance market. The need for it was to find a product that was viable to banks that didn’t have these loads charges and the idea behind it, back in that day, was primarily to fund nonqualified, deferred compensation plans for management and Boards of banks.   Kelly: That was the primary need for the product, not as an investment per se, but to help fund the nonqualified benefit portion.   David: Yes, to maybe take it a step further. There were not really any regs back until 1991 that were clear as to what a bank could purchase and couldn’t purchase. They could not buy life insurance as an investment asset. They could buy it to fund specific needs. A nonqualified, deferred comp plan was widely considered to be one of those specific items that could be funded with life insurance. It was not clear at the time that you could buy life insurance to informally fund health care and 401K and other retirement benefits and group life benefits and so forth.     Even in the first regs that were issued in 1991, bank reg; I think it’s called BC249, essentially said that you can’t buy life insurance as an investment. You can buy it to offset the cost of certain benefit plans. Even then it wasn’t clear whether that covered health care and 401Ks and things like that, so the initial design of bank owned life insurance was primarily for the purpose of nonqualified deferred compensation plans.   Kelly: The regs specifically prohibited it as an alternative investment asset class. Is that mainly because of that front-end charge and regulators didn’t want to see the hit to capital?   David: That was not the reason. They just viewed life insurance as not a normal asset for a bank from an investment standpoint. It was for specific purposes, but not considered to be an investment in the same terms as Treasury’s and agencies and municipal bonds.   Kelly: Now, that has changed since those early years correct that regulatory perspective?   David: Technically no, in 1996 there was a guidance issued under OCC96-51 which specifically gave authority for a bank to buy life insurance to informally fund retirement benefits and health care. So even today you can't buy life insurance purely as an investment. You have to purchase it from a regulatory standpoint to offset and/or recover the cost of employee benefit plans.     For instance, if a bank had no employee benefit plans; if they weren’t providing health care or 401K’s or retirement plans or nonqualified plans, they really could not buy life insurance and hold onto it until the death of the insured because they would not have a valid reason under the regs to buy that life insurance.   Kelly: They could only buy like Key Man life insurance.   David: They could buy the Key Man, but when that Key Man would leave the bank they’d have to surrender the policy because there was no need for it once that key man left.   Kelly: A bank does not have to have a nonqualified benefit plan. It could just have any sort of benefit plan. It could be health insurance. It could be 401K, any sort of benefit, correct?   David: That's correct, as long as they're providing employee benefits. From experience, if a bank provides health care coverage typically the cost of health care in today’s market is so high that health care alone is enough to justify buying bank owned life insurance generally up to twenty-five percent of capital.   Kelly: Right, so do you see BOLI as primarily an alternative asset class or an insurance product with investment benefits or does it kind of depend on what the needs of the bank are?   David: I would say it depends on the needs of the bank. I'd say it probably leans more toward the alternative asset class in that you look at the features of bank owned life insurance as a tool to produce earnings that would help the bottom line and help recover employee benefit expenses. BOLI has features that are attractive from that standpoint.   Kelly: As an alternative asset class, and I know you and I've had this discussion offline a couple times, if you consider the investment features as an alternative asset class what asset class does BOLI compete against best or worst I suppose? Where do you think, if you were a bank and they liked the features and benefits of BOLI and they need as a replacement. What asset do you think it replaces best MUNI’s, agencies, loans? As I see it, it could be a loan to an insurance company. Where do you see it?   David: It's hard to say that BOLI replaces any particular investment because the features are different than all the other asset classes that are traditional for a bank. If you go down that path and talk about, for instance, BOLI versus MUNI’s there is some common characteristics in that they both have income that's not taxable that helps produce generally higher returns than most taxable asset classes.     There are a lot of differences in those two asset classes, for instance, MUNI’s generally have a fixed rate interest rate, whereas BOLI is an adjustable interest rate. The credit quality of both are high. The BOLI carriers tend to be large, very well-known, highly rated carriers, so very strong credit quality. BOLI has no mark to market in the asset, that in reporting periods whereas municipal bonds generally have to do a mark to market of capital through the OTTI adjustment. BOLI essentially doesn’t have a diminution of value when rates rise whereas municipal bonds could.     Now, from the value of municipal bonds relative to BOLI is that it's always tax-free rather than tax deferred. BOLI’s tax deferred technically, but if held until death its tax free. If you surrender a BOLI contract before maturity, before the person dies, you have a tax liability for the gain plus an extra ten percent for the it’s called a modified endowment contract penalty. BOLI effectively has minimal liquidity from the standpoint of once you buy it you intend to hold it until death, because you don’t want to incur the tax liability.     Whereas a municipal bond if you decided to sell that you would still retain all the income that you've earned to that point tax free. Sometimes banks put municipal bonds in the hold to maturity buckets so they can't really sell the bond; it becomes an illiquid asset for them as well. There's some pros and cons to each, but BOLI does hold up well generally considering the pros and cons of it to any of the asset classes.   Kelly: But, especially MUNI’s.   David: Yes, I think from that standpoint rather than one versus the other it might be some combination of the two for diversification.   Kelly: From my perspective, I see MUNI yields to get higher yield you have to extend duration, so you look at the risk of extending duration versus investing some assets in bank owned life insurance. I've only been doing this for a year now. It’s seems that like half the banks have BOLI on the balance sheet and half don’t.     From my perspective, it's kind of a CPA, risk manager, investment person I don’t really see why a bank wouldn’t max out their twenty-five percent of net capital. Now, that sounds pretty self-serving I know, but in your experience what's the single biggest reason for a bank to not include BOLI in its assets class, because there certainly is a reasonable amount of bias and hesitancy for Boards and CFO’s to get BOLI. What's the single biggest reason that you see for a bank to not include it in their asset class?   David: The stats on BOLI are that sixty percent of the banks across the country have BOLI and forty percent don’t. For banks over a hundred million it's about two-thirds that have BOLI and one-third that don’t. It’s fairly common for banks above one hundred million to have an investment in bank owned life insurance. For those that don’t, it generally falls into one of two to three reasons.     Probably the most prevalent is a bank that has high loan demand. The bank wants to make loans to its local market because that helps build franchise value. If they have high loan demands, say their loan to deposit ratio is over a hundred percent, they may not have the liquidity to hold BOLI at the current time. All their attention and all their liquidity is going into making loans. While BOLI competes with loans well on the yield side, the tax equivalent yield side, banks tend to want to have loans for building the franchise value versus owning bank owned life insurance. If they have the option, they're going it put it into loans rather than BOLI assuming they feel comfortable with the credit quality of those loans. That's probably the biggest reason.     Number two is that some banks don’t fully understand the asset, haven’t taken the time to fully understand it. The pros and cons and features of BOLI is not traditional with a lot of banks. There's this uncertainty about something that's not traditional. They may think “We haven’t done that before and I don’t want to take the time to learn pros and cons.” Maybe they’ve had a presentation and it wasn’t presented in a way that made it clear what the pros and cons are. They maybe saw it as too much of a sales push instead of laying out all the pros and all the cons kind of thing.     Keep in mind that for BOLI to be approved by a bank it generally requires a hundred percent agreement, meaning you must have the CFO of the bank, the CEO of the bank and usually everybody on the Board to be in unison that they want to buy BOLI. You can have one person dissent out of ten, for instance, and that could keep it from happening.   Kelly: Why is unanimity required?   David: It’s not required. It's just generally the way it is. First off, if you don’t have the CEO and CFO on board it probably won't go to the Board. You need both of them. The Board, they normally just don’t want BOLI to be something that causes dissention among the Board members. That's not always the case, but typically they need all Board members or at least eighty to ninety percent approval before they would invest in the asset. I haven’t really run into it, but I don’t think you’ll see BOLI being approved on a five to four vote.   Kelly: Yeah, but that would be true with just about any asset class. Let's say the bank wanted to, the CFO proposed extending duration. Don’t you think that unanimity would be expected or the same standard would be expected for that decision to extend municipal bond duration versus like in a BOLI decision?   David: Yes, I would think so. On investments they have their investment policy that's been approved by the Board and that decision would have to be made within the investment policy about extending duration. Yes, I would think you would need a very high approval rate of the Board members before you would change the investment the policy to do something that effectively increases the risk.   Kelly: Do you see BOLI as being subject to…say within the scope of the banks investment policy in your experience?   David: No, BOLI has its own policy. One of the requirements under the regs is that you have to have a BOLI policy before you can purchase it. You would establish a bank owned life insurance policy; in a sense it's an investment policy for BOLI all to its own. It explains within the policy the bank’s view of BOLI; the percentage of capital that the bank would be willing to purchase; the percent to any one carrier; the due diligence that would be done before purchase; carrier selection; vendor selection. How would they go about deciding which carriers, which vendors and so forth? That all has to be documented in a policy before the bank can even go about purchasing a BOLI product.   Kelly: The bank either includes that as a chapter within the investment policy or they have it as its own separate investment policy.   David: I have pretty much only seen it as its own separate policy. If they include it within the investment policy it would be its own chapter. It's fairly lengthy. It's usually ten - fifteen pages of policy all to itself.   Kelly: How has the industry changed since the early years?   David: In the early years, I guess from a salesperson’s standpoint the hard part was to get a bank to talk to you about BOLI because it just wasn’t common and owning life insurance as an asset was not normal. It was outside the box and a lot of bankers didn’t want to discuss doing something that was outside the box. The biggest hurdle was getting the audience.     Today, most banks know about BOLI so they've heard about it and they have had many, many sales calls about it. Other banks they know have purchased it, so they understand at least the term and what it is. Now, there are just a whole lot of sales calls from insurance sales folks asking about BOLI. They're aware of it. It's just very, very competitive and maybe difficult for the bankers to understand the difference in firm A versus firm B.     The other way that's changed, when I started doing this the only products available were what's called general account products where the carrier provides a universal life insurance product or some whole life products that have an interest rate or dividend rate. Then the main risk to the bank was a carrier’s credit whether the carrier would be able to pay the claim later. Today, you have not only general account which are still very popular, but since then there's been a lot of purchases of what is called hybrid separate account products and also variable separate account products.     Variable separate account products are where the assets are segregated from creditors somewhat like a mutual fund. The bank can choose to invest the money within a particular investment bucket; although, for a bank it as to be eligible investments unless it's used as a hedge against a deferred comp plan. Those have some higher risk features, a little bit more moving parts. They have a stable value wrap sold by a registered product or private placement memorandum and so they're more complicated. Most community banks shy away from those because of the complications and the mark to market within the portfolio.     Then, there's a hybrid separate account product that has features very much like a general account. It has an added credit enhancement that if the carrier were to ever become insolvent the assets within the separate account by legal definitions are segregated from creditors of the insurance carrier so that those assets would only be available to the policy holders. These new asset classes have been pretty popular and have essentially enhanced the options for banks to buy bank owned life insurance.   Kelly: The first generation of BOLI was the general account, no-load product and then the second generation would be some of these the hybrid accounts and some of these more sophisticated product structures. But the core concept was the same, right?   David: That's correct, basically similar structure from a standpoint of no loads, no surrender charges, single premium, just a difference in the chassis if you will.   Kelly: Right, the risk sharing to a certain extent, right, because was the separate account available back then in the early years?   David: You could buy a separate account that was called variable universal life. It was a shelf product, but banks really didn’t buy it then because you had mark to market. Say it was all in a bond fund but the interest rates went up and the value of the bond fund went down five percent you’d have to take an immediate mark to market on your balance sheet and income statement. That was not very attractive to a buyer. If you're a bank you don’t want that kind of volatility on your income statement.   Kelly: Even though that's the nature of a municipal bond portfolio, they have to mark those.   David: A municipal bond portfolio they mark to market, but not through the income statement. They mark to market through the capital account.   Kelly: Right.   David: It doesn’t flow through income.   Kelly: Right.   David: Whereas if you were to do the same thing in a variable universal life insurance contract and have that mark to market risk you’d have to mark that through your income statement because the cash value is changing.   Kelly: One of the things that I noticed about Equias, again this sounds somewhat self-serving, but I’ll say it anyway. This relates to the industry changes. When I see Equias, it just seems to be a highly professional organization. I think eighteen consultants and thirty some support personnel and I believe seven CPAs and a bunch of attorneys, MBA’s that kind of thing. It just seems that one of the things that appears to have happened with Equias having emerged as the key player is the element of professional consulting capabilities versus I would suspect in the early years, and currently, many of potentially our competitors, it's mainly a bunch of insurance guys, right, trying to sell product?  I would think in the early years that's what it was all about, insurance guys trying to sell insurance to a new market…banks.   David: Yes, there was a lot of that. The business model that Equias developed was this is not an area that banks have a lot of expertise in and that they need support services so that they can spend a minimal amount of their time dealing with the technical stuff and don’t have to pay a lot to CPA firms and law firms to help them through the process.     We set up the firm with the idea that we could provide those services at costs that are competitive with anybody in the marketplace. Through volume we could provide more services and all the technical services that a bank would need, but do it in a very cost effective way. That’s where we actually have eight CPAs and two attorneys and a former OCC regulator, former bankers, bank directors, and a former head of the BOLI area for one of the major insurance carriers.     We've staffed our firm with very, very experienced, competent, technical people including the consultants are all very experienced, so that we could be a real asset to the banks. It'd be hard for our competitors to match our knowledge and experience and to duplicate what we can do.   Kelly: One of the things that got my attention was I think you're one of the few that has a SOC 1, Type 2 audit. Not many insurance “agencies” have that kind of thing going on. That was a good plus in my mind with you guys.   David: Yeah, it covers our implementation process, as well as our administration process, and covers not only the BOLI side of it, but covers the nonqualified benefits side. We’ve set up internal controls when we established the company and we followed those controls. We've been able to go through the audit process very efficiently and effectively.   Kelly: I’ll probably be criticized for this being an infomercial for Equias, but what the heck. That's what we can do. All right let's finish with one final thing. I’ll give you the choice. This is a question I ask every guest either your favorite quote or, what I like the best, is tell us what one of the stupidest things you’ve said or done in your business career.   David: One of the early days in my career I remember having gone to this bank to explain BOLI and the nonqualified plans probably for the seventh or eighth time. Some of the Board members were wearing out with me coming back almost it seemed like every month. One of the Board members, who was an attorney, when I came back this time she just looked and “Oh no, not you again.” I said, “Yeah.” She said, “Look, if I vote for this, does that mean you won't come back and you'll leave us alone?” I said, ‘You’ve got my word on that.” I guess in that case persistence paid off.   Kelly: It's good, yeah.   David: It wasn’t one of those real positive “I'm glad to see you” kind of moments.   Kelly: That's right; you got the deal done though.   David: Yeah, I was able to get it done through persistence, not through the sales process really.   Kelly: Yeah, that's good. All right, David, thanks for your time. I appreciate it.   We want to thank you for listening to the syndicated audio program, BankBosun.com The audio content is produced by Kelly Coughlin, Chief Executive Officer of BankBosun, LLC;  and syndicated by Seth Greene, Market Domination LLC, with the help of Kevin Boyle. Video content is produced by The Guildmaster Studio, Keenan Bobson Boyle. The voice introduction is me, Karim Kronfli. The program is hosted by Kelly Coughlin. If you like this program, please tell us. If you don’t, please tell us how we can improve it. Now, some disclaimers. Kelly is licensed with the Minnesota State Board of Accountancy as a Certified Public Accountant.   Kelly provides bank owned life insurance portfolio and nonqualified benefit services to banks across the United States.  The views expressed here are solely those of Kelly Coughlin and his guests in their private capacity and do not in any other way represent the views of any other agent, principal, employer, employee, vendor or supplier of Kelly Coughlin.  

Kelly interviews Peter Weinstock, Partner, Hunton & Williams, Dallas Office. They talk about bank M&A deals and minority shareholder actions to gain control of bank management. Peter Weinstock’s practice focuses on corporate and regulatory representation of financial institutions. He is Practice Group Leader of the Financial Institutions Section and has counseled institutions on more than 150 M&A transactions, as well as provided representation on securities offerings and capital planning.   Kelly Coughlin is CEO of BankBosun, a management consulting firm helping bank C-Level Officers navigate risk and discover reward. He is the host of the syndicated audio podcast, BankBosun.com. Kelly brings over 25 years of experience with companies like PWC, Lloyds Bank, and Merrill Lynch. On the podcast Kelly interviews key executives in the banking ecosystem to provide bank C-Suite officers, risk management, technology, and investment ideas and solutions to help them navigate risks and discover rewards. And now your host, Kelly Coughlin. Kelly: Hi, this is Kelly Coughln from the BankBosun. Hope everybody’s doing fine. I’m going to do an interview today with a deal guy. He’s with a law firm in Dallas, Texas. We’re going to talk about the types of deals that are getting done. Are they P&A deals? Are they stock deals? There are distressed deals out there, there are strategic ones, and what is he saying in terms of M&A activity in the banking sector. With that, we’ll get Peter Weinstock on the phone, from Hunton & Williams. Let’s talk about deals, Peter. I have kind of a basic question on general trends. In bad banking economies, it seems that we have a lot of P&A deals, where I think the seller is normally the FDIC, correct? Peter: Right. Kelly: We must have had a lot of those in 2008, 2009, possibly up to 2010. Peter: Yeah, I agree. For really almost a four, four and a half year period, there were more deals sold by the FDIC than there were private sector M&A transactions. Kelly: Then today, better economy, better banking environment, we don’t see many of those, correct? Peter: Very few. Kelly: Would you say that the number of P&A deals is a leading indicator, lagging indicator of economic conditions of banks in general? Peter: Yeah, it’s certainly a lagging indicator, just like capital as a protection is a lagging indicator because what tends to happen is asset quality issues or concentration levels or interest rate risk, some of those other factors, the metrics indicating those issues are becoming problematic kick in long before capital starts declining and capital starts declining generally long before or moderately before problem banks are looking to sell or the FDIC takes over. The number of P&A transactions, which again, we’re down to very few, are more reflective of the fact that the economy seemed to turn sometime in 2012 and we’ve had now three full years of, even though it’s not a great recovery, we’ve had some recovery. Kelly: How many P&A deals have we seen in three years? Peter: I think we’re only up to two so far this year, where we were, in 2009 through 2011, we were having dozens and in one of those years over one hundred bank deals. Kelly: The two this year, are they in, say, oil patch regions that are struggling economically or somewhere else? Peter: That’s an outstanding question because the answer is, it’s not. That’s not to say that the oil patch or the commodity price areas are not under stress. Certainly, the ag economy is under some stress, but again, it gets back to your first question about lagging indicators. The banks that are failing now are banks that have been circling around the drain for a long time now. They’ve been shrinking to maintain capital ratios, but they can’t get recapitalized because of the legacy assets that they have from the downturn, so we still have a significant number of banks that are undercapitalized and unless something happens, they could fail because they have elevated problem asset levels and those problem asset levels are what would bring them down. At December 31 there were 78 banks that were still somewhere undercapitalized or only adequately capitalized, which is down from, at one point, the problem bank list was over 600, but the 78 institutions that are adequately capitalized or worst, as of year end, are ones that are suffering from the last downturn, rather than the next one. Kelly: All right, you mentioned 78 that are undercapitalized. What’s the metric that you use? Peter: These are banks that are not well capitalized, so they’re adequately capitalized or lower, which is they have to have a leverage ratio of 5% in order to be well capitalized. Then you have the Basel III metrics. Right now, you’re talking about a total risk-based capital ratio of under 10% and total leverage ratio of under 5% to be adequately capitalized or, in that case, undercapitalized. It’s not an incredibly high bar that they’re not able to chin, so these 78, you would think that they would be able to recapitalize themselves, but the big challenge that they have is their elevated asset quality levels. Kelly: You have these 78 banks. Are brokers out there, investment bankers out there trying to get them to sell? You guys probably don’t do that. Lawyers don’t hustle for business like that, I don’t think, right? You’re not making cold calls? Peter: We’re purist, man. We would never do such a thing. I’m sure that all 78 of them have been shaking the trees and have talked to anyone and everyone who they think could be an avenue for capital and for addressing their problems, but at some point, if you’ve got capital of 5 million but you have problem assets of 15 or 20 million, at some point the numbers don’t make sense for an investor and that’s why these institutions are still on the list, some of them. Kelly: Let’s talk about the good side of the market, not the problem areas. Let’s say last year, you being a proxy for the market, how many deals were related to distressed banks and how many were for strategic acquisition reasons or market expansion? Peter: I would tell you the vast majority of them were strategic and few were problem bank acquisitions. What I mean by strategic isn’t necessarily that the seller was in great shape and they sold for a very high price. What we’re seeing is a number of sellers are kind of giving up the ghost because in this interest rate environment, with anemic loan demand, very competitive loan pricing, there are sellers that look at their compliance costs and their IT costs and their personnel costs and they’re saying, “We’re not big enough to do a deal. We’re not big enough to survive on our own and make our shareholders a fair return, so we need to look at doing something else.” The something else is not necessarily selling for cash and going on down the road. One of the biggest trend lines we’ve seen in the last two, three years, is the willingness of sellers to take illiquid stock, stock from a privately owned financial institution. Kelly: In the acquiring company. Peter: To take illiquid stock from an acquiring company, that’s another community bank like they may be, sellers are much more willing to do that than they ever have been before in my 30+ year career. I think the biggest driver of that is that on the operational standpoint, the challenges of being a bank are such that skill matters and then on the shareholder valuation standpoint, I think they recognize that this may not be the greatest pricing time to sell out, so they look at doing some kind of strategic combination to be part of a bigger, more profitable organization, even though the stock is illiquid. Kelly: Let’s say, in those situations where you’ve got a reasonably healthy bank, they see that if they don’t do something they might be in part of the 78 again, but they might go down that way, so they’re proactive. As a part of that, they have to lock up some of their good producers, right? Their good credit officers and those things. One of the thing we do in our business is help with non-qualified plan benefits to try to use that as a way to lock in good senior management. Do you see much of that going on as part of the deal criteria? Peter: It surprises me that more banks that are potential sales candidates don’t do more. In community bank America, it almost doesn’t matter how big you are, you’re a potential target. I’ll give you an example. One of my clients is a $5 billion bank in California and they merged with an $8 billion bank in December, they announced it. The reason is because our client, that’s $5 billion, felt that they needed to get bigger in order to compete. The $8 billion bank felt like they needed to be bigger to compete, so now they’re going to be $13 billion. If you’re not an $8 or a $5 billion bank, if you’re smaller than that, you might say to yourself, I don’t need to be bigger to survive, but my efficiency ratio sure as heck would improve if we got bigger. I would tell you that almost every bank is a candidate to be sold, they’re a candidate to buy and they’re a candidate to be sold. KPMG did a survey in 2014 and it indicated that over 50% of the banks thought they would engage in an acquisition, but 3% of banks thought they would sell. The numbers wound up in 2015 being something like 4.4% of all the banks sold. Every bank out there, it seems, is thinking about doing an acquisition, but every bank and community bank America is a potential candidate. A long way around to your question is because the banks are all potential merger candidates, then they really should look at putting in place protections for their employees and really locking them up, but when they’re doing that, they also need to think about not hurting shareholder value. The way you could hurt shareholder value is you provide some kind of agreement, let’s say a change in control agreement, that provides on a change in control the employee gets paid if they leave the bank. Now we hurt shareholder value because the buyer knows that they could lose that person because there’s an incentive for that person to leave. Really, it takes somebody like you to think through not just how to protect the person, not just how to lock them up, but also to do it in a way where it creates or at least preserves shareholder value because the buyer is not looking at that contract and saying that that contract harms me because I’m going to lose a valuable producer. Your question is a good one and I would even go further and I’d say what exists gets paid. If people want agreements to be in place, they need to put them in place because if they exist they’ll get paid, where if you wait until a potential acquisition, then what’s going to happen is the acquirer is going to say, “You can do that, but if you do that it comes out of the shareholder’s purchase price,” and I don’t think you want to be negotiating those types of agreements with another person with their elbows on the table. Kelly: I’ve got a lot of experience in other financial sectors like financial advisors and broker dealers and the common theme with them is you’ve got much more highly paid execs, but the notion that the assets go down in the elevator every day. It’s more or less the same thing with many banks and not locking them up one way or another in an acquisition, it always kind of surprises me. Let’s talk about surprises in an acquisition landmines. It seems to me that when we’re talking about banks that are not a huge footprint, a community bank that’s got 1 to 15 branches, isn’t it a fair statement to say that more of the acquirers or interested acquirers are going to be a current competitor of that bank and doesn’t that always present a bit of a due diligence challenge or problem, where you’re going to release sensitive, confidential information to your competitor? Peter: That is absolutely correct that that’s a possibility. The reason for that is because most financial institution mergers are driven by cost savings. Where do you get the most cost savings? In a market deal or an adjoining market deal. It is very likely the party that can pay the most is going to be an existing competitor. That absolutely presents challenges in terms of protecting your employees and your confidential information. Obviously you’re going to negotiate the heck out of the non-disclosure agreement, if that’s likely buyer, if you’re the seller. The other thing is you’re probably going to want to hold back on when you deliver information until there is an agreement on all of the relevant terms and then the due diligence becomes more in the way of confirming diligence than it does in terms of setting the price. You’ll release some key information, including whether there’s a termination fee as a result of the transaction on your data processing agreement, changing control agreements with employees, give all of that pricing type information, but you might hold back the loan review and the customer review until the deal is essentially set. Kelly: The customer name is withheld until the deal is a little more mature. Peter: We’ve also done it where you redact the customer names, but in an in-market deal it doesn’t take a lot of information for the buyer to know who that player is. Kelly: Yeah, right. Back to my other question that we started on. Surprises? Peter: I’d say the biggest surprise to buyers is that the seller’s compliance issues could infect them. I’ll give you an example. When MB Financial was acquiring Cole Taylor, Cole Taylor had a major compliance issue and the transaction was held up for about a year, while the regulators got comfortable with the resolution of that compliance issue. Similarly there have been a number of red-lining cases and BSA cases where the compliance issues of the target have held up the deal. I think that’s a surprise for a number of buyers because if you’re engaged in a potential transaction, you’re locked into that transaction. You’ve agreed to try to get that deal closed. If you wind up with an extended regulatory approval time period, that could prevent you, preclude you from going after a deal that becomes available six months, a year later that might be a better deal for you. Similarly for sellers, even in cash deal, if there’s a surprise that the buyer’s compliance issues can be such a hold up and what we’ve seen is we’ve seen AML, BSA, KYC issues that have held up approval of deals for two or three years in UDAP and some other consumer compliance issues that similarly have held up deals. As a seller, you have to perform some reverse due diligence, some extensive reverse due diligence on the buyer, even in the transaction that’s a cash deal. For a lot of sellers, that’s a surprise to them. Kelly: Do regulators hold up the deal or does the buyer intentionally hold that up? Peter: Generally it’s the regulators because from the buyer standpoint, they become aware of the issue and they adopt a plan of remediation for the issue. It’s one thing for a private sector party to get a handle on an issue and have a plan of remediation and feel good that they can implement it. It’s a whole other thing for an agent, say, to get their arms around it in a time frame that seems reasonable. The Federal Reserve has two analysts in Washington who handle compliance issues with regard to applications. Kelly: The buyer would just haircut the valuation. At the end of the day it’s a contingent liability, right? They would just haircut the valuation on it. Peter: If it’s a known risk and it’s one that they have presumably priced in. If it’s not a known risk and they become aware of it, then they may go back to the seller and say, “We’ve got all of these costs related to it, we need to reduce the price,” or if it’s significant enough, they could decide to walk the transaction. Kelly: In terms of surprises, known compliance issues and I suppose the ‘know what you don’t know,’ whatever that term is. You know those issues, it’s the unknown compliance regulatory issues. Any ideas on pre-detecting, early detection of those things? Peter: That’s really you just have to engage in some pretty thorough diligence of the other party to really understand where the risk areas are. Kelly: I suppose you look at their internal controls and their timely filings or substantiation and all of those things on the control structure. Peter: You do. Something that I like looking at as a starting point for diligence is nowadays banks have to do risk assessments. Seemingly a banker can’t walk out doing a five-page risk assessment. Those risk assessments are the other party’s self-confessing, if you will, where they see their own challenges or concerns. The beauty of that for the other party is that gives them a roadmap of things to look at in diligence. Kelly: I was director of risk management for asset management subsidiaries of Lloyd’s Bank out of London, and this was many, many years ago. Regulatory issues and compliance back then just didn’t quite get the importance. They actually did in the UK, but things have ramped up in the US quite a bit, that it’s probably more on par with what it was with the British banks back then. Peter: If you parachuted back, if you were Mr. Peabody and you got in the Wayback Machine and went back to 2000 and you had a full-time, dedicated BSA officer, and how many banks had full-time, dedicated compliance offer and how many banks had a full-time, dedicated risk officer, and how many banks had a full-time, dedicated IT person, and you compare those numbers to the way they are now, it’s just shocking. The bigger the acquisition, the more you want to look at areas that you might not want to spend the money on if you’re a smaller institution. In a bigger deal, you absolutely want to evaluate IT exposures and make sure that there have not been or in place potential breaches. Kelly: Why don’t you give us parting thoughts you’d like to give. Speak to both buyers and sellers. Peter: One thing we’re seeing for banks that may not want to be a seller is there is a lot more activism. We had six private banks in the fourth quarter that had proxy sites, tender offers. One even had a TRO, a temporary restraining order, filed against them. That’s continued in the first quarter of 2016. One thing is to put in place protections and recognize that your risks can be from your existing shareholder base or people who buy in. The world’s awash in money and people out there know if they could buy stock of a bank at eight-tenths of book or book and then wrestle control of the board and get control, then the bank on the sale might be worth book and a quarter or book and a half, book seven, where they could potentially even more than double their money, buy the stock and flipping it in a control situation. We’re seeing activism creeping down into the community bank, into the private bank sector, and that’s something clearly you want to watch. Kelly: You’re not talking political and social activism. You’re talking about business acquisition, venture capital, investment activism. Peter: Absolutely. We’re talking shareholder activism. Then just another thing that we’ve seen on the buyer’s side is buyers tend to be most focused targets who are of sale who sent them books. We talked about some of the compliance challenges of the application process. Just because somebody sends you a book and the book says, “We’re for sale,” doesn’t mean that they’re the greatest candidate for you to buy. What you want to be careful about is being locked up on a deal in the regulatory process that is somebody who doesn’t really move the needle for you. It’s got something that obviously is worthwhile, but maybe it’s really not consistent with your strategic focus. We’ve seen potential buyers almost shift their strategic focus just because an investment banker sends them a book on a potential target. Kelly: Two good points. I always like to finish with two things: Your favorite quote and the stupidest thing you’ve either said or done in your business life. Peter: There are a lot of the latter. Upon the former, I like the Warren Buffet quote, which it really resonates when you’re talking about shareholder activism. He said, “I prefer to manage my business for the shareholders who want to stay in and not the ones who want to get out.” I may be paraphrasing it, but that’s the thought. I like that quote a lot because that’s actually directors of the bank. Those are the people they have a duty to. The second one is the stupidest thing I’ve ever done in my career? Kelly: Yes. Peter: One thing that I learned a long time ago not to do is something that’s emotionally gratifying because in business it almost always is a bad decision. Early on in my career I would get testy with regulators and that’s never a good strategy. Gray hair and maybe even the loss of hair and some experience, I’ve learned the wisdom of working together with regulators a lot more than trying to beat them up. Kelly: Can you recall one that you said something to? Peter: I remember when I was a third-year lawyer, I went to a meeting with the Federal Reserve and I’m not exactly sure what I said at the point, but this person with the Federal Reserve got up and it wasn’t quite Nikita Khrushchev banging his shoe on the table, but he was animated. Kelly: All right, Peter. Thank you very much. I appreciate your time. I wish you the best. We want to thank you for listening to the syndicated audio program, BankBosun.com The audio content is produced by Kelly Coughlin, Chief Executive Officer of BankBosun, LLC; and syndicated by Seth Greene, Market Domination LLC, with the help of Kevin Boyle. Video content is produced by The Guildmaster Studio, Keenan Bobson Boyle. The voice introduction is me, Karim Kronfli. The program is hosted by Kelly Coughlin. If you like this program, please tell us. If you don’t, please tell us how we can improve it. Now, some disclaimers. Kelly is licensed with the Minnesota State Board of Accountancy as a Certified Public Accountant. Kelly provides bank owned life insurance portfolio and nonqualified benefit services to banks across the United States. The views expressed here are solely those of Kelly Coughlin and his guests in their private capacity and do not in any other way represent the views of any other agent, principal, employer, employee, vendor or supplier of Kelly Coughlin.

Kelly Coughlin interviews Wes Sierk, President and Co-Founder of Risk Management Advisors. Wes is the author of the book Taken Captive: The Secret to Capturing Your Piece of America’s Multi-Billion Dollar Insurance Industry. Wes is a recognized expert in using captive insurance strategies to manage and fund certain types of risk. Kelly Coughlin believes that such a strategy could be used to manage and fund cyber security risk. This is the first in a series of three podcasts covering captive insurance and cyber security risk management.   Kelly Coughlin is CEO of BankBosun, a management consulting firm helping bank C-Level Officers navigate risk and discover reward. He is the host of the syndicated audio podcast, BankBosun.com. Kelly brings over 25 years of experience with companies like PWC, Lloyds Bank, and Merrill Lynch. On the podcast Kelly interviews key executives in the banking ecosystem to provide bank C-Suite officers, risk management, technology, and investment ideas and solutions to help them navigate risks and discover rewards. And now your host, Kelly Coughlin. Kelly: Hello this is Kelly Coughlin with the BankBosun. This is the podcast that’s the first in a series of three podcasts that are going to be related to using captive insurance strategy to manage and ensure cyber security risk and loss. I’ve talked to many bankers over my 25-year career and I have observed in the past five years cyber security going from a concern of IT guys and techno geeks to top of mind attention and concern of CEOs, CFOs and boards of directors. In fact, I was at a conference in Kansas a while back, and a number of the sessions were on cyber security risk. I was thinking, “Well, should we go to that? Should we not go to that?” We talked to C-level execs. These sessions were all standing room only, completely filled with C-level execs. It occurred to me that in this environment, we have potentially overpricing of all services related to the risk management of this risk including prevention, detection, hardware, software, consulting. I thought the subject of these 3 podcasts would be the transference of this risk. I think one of the areas that I detect as potentially being mis-priced is the cost of insurance, partly because the risk of loss is all over the map. We thought, “Let’s explore cyber security risk through a captive insurance enterprise.” To help kick this series off, I am interviewing Wes Sierk, President and Cofounder of Risk Management Advisors. I came across Wes through a book that he wrote, exciting title called, Taken Captive. That sounds good so far. Here’s where it goes downhill: “The secret to capturing your piece of America’s multi-billion dollar insurance industry.” I’m interviewing Wes remotely. He’s in Long Beach, California. Wes, you heard my introduction, and the reason you would be on this call, but let’s start with a couple of minutes on your background, how it would connect to bank cyber security risk management. Wes: Well first of all thank you for having me on the show. I started out in the insurance business in 1993 in a division of Northwestern Mutual, which was a life insurance company called CCI, Compensation Consulting Inc. Mostly what we did there is qualified and non-qualified planning, retirement plans and deferred comp, things like that. I came across captive insurance companies in 2000. My first thought was, it was a perfect alternative to deferred comp. That’s how I got into it. My background is … I’m a researcher, so I started digging into why life insurance was all the same. It was you go to a life insurance company and you get a 45-year-old male, and you say, “How much is a million dollars of coverage?” The insurance company prints out that ledger. If you had ten agents going to the market, they would all come back with the same quote. PNC is completely different. You actually have one broker who goes to the market for you and it’s much more of a negotiation, which leads into the pricing issues that you alluded to earlier in your call. My partner Jared and myself went on to form Risk Management Advisors in 2004 and all we’ve been doing since is just the design, implementation and management of captive insurance companies. On a personal side, married for about 24 years, two kids, I coach baseball, and Risk Management Advisors has a Nascar team. Kelly: Give us a definition in two sentences of captive insurance. Wes: It’s an insurance company that a business sets up to insure their own risk. It’s pretty simple. Kelly: It could be a bank? Wes: Yes. Instead of them buying their general liability, their cyber, their property, all of their coverage from AIG, Zurich, Liberties of the world, they actually form their own licensed regulated insurance company and they pay those premiums to their own company. They deduct those premiums, just like they would by paying any other company. Kelly: All right. In terms of primary motivations, my research shows that one, you’ve got access to cheap insurance rates because you’re paying them directly to your own carriers so to speak, right? You’ve got first dollar loss coverage, you can accelerate loss deductions, which appears to be a fancy term for you can over-fund the risk premium and build up tax deductible reserve. Are those the three core motivations to do this, or are there others? What’s the primary motivation to do this? Wes: I think you hit the nail on the head. One thing it does give you, if you’re an insurance company, is it gives you access to the reinsurance marketplace. Kelly: How much would a bank be saving? Are you talking 5% or are we talking 40%? Wes: Well it depends on the kind of policies they’re writing and the amount of risk that they’re willing to take. One thing is, the reason why reinsurance is less expensive is because the insurance industry, insurance companies, have thousands of employees. I read somewhere that the insurance industry has three times as many employees as the US Post Office. They do a lot of the processing of paperwork and claims and things like that, so they have higher overhead. A re-insurer can get away with having 5% of the employees of an insurance company, because they only attach at a certain level whether that’s 50, 100, 250, a million, whatever. They’re not getting involved in the day-to-day operations of the insurance company and the day-to-day pay out of claims. That’s left to the insurance company level. We see, for regular insurances, I would say you could see a 30% savings over your traditional insurance. Kelly: In the banking business we have what are called banker’s banks, and they provide banking services to banks. They don’t do anything directly with the public. So would a reinsurance company be an insurance company’s insurance company where they provide services only to another insurance company, so you cut out all of the sales process I suppose, the distribution expenses? Aren’t those the core things that are cut out plus the servicing part because they’re not dealing with million to 20 million dollar cases, they’re dealing with whatever the number is, 50 million or above, the larger ones? Wes: You’re exactly right. Your analogy is very good. Where bankers have banker’s banks, this would be like an insurance company’s insurance company. Kelly: If one were going to set up a captive, that entity would have to also sign up, unless they were going to absorb all of the risk themselves, which is unlikely. If they want to transfer or share some of that risk, they have to set up relationships with reinsurance companies, correct? Wes: Correct, unless they want to take that risk themselves, which we don’t usually recommend the first couple of years. Kelly: I suppose companies like you, this is not an infomercial for your group, but is that part of what you do, is you have these relationships and there’s probably some vetting process that you would go through to bring on a new captive client, I suppose, and introduce them and negotiate terms, etc with the reinsurance company. Is that one of the roles that your company provides? Wes: Yes it is. Clients come to us because they want us to set up and manage their insurance company for them; deal with the departments insurance; do all of the regulatory filings and in most cases, not all cases but most cases; they’ll have us go and negotiate the reinsurance contracts for them. The good thing about reinsurance, reinsurance is always sold net of commissions, unlike an insurance policy where you pay an insurance agent, we’re just negotiating on behalf of the insurance company as a manager of the insurance company. Kelly: That’s where the big savings comes from. Wes: Yeah, there’s a lot of savings in that. I’m not going to begrudge brokers because brokers bring a tremendous amount of value to clients. Kelly: There are a couple of ways to set these things up from what I can tell. You could set them up as a single parent captive or a group pooled collective type where you have a group of banks. You have a single bank, Bank A that decides, “We’re going to set this up.” It’s only one bank in there. Then you have a pooled or group approach where you have Banks A and B setting up the collective. They either do it alone or with others, like kind business I suppose, right? Is that a fair assessment? Wes: Yeah, they either do it by themselves or they do it with other people. Then within the other people, there is many different ways they can do it. Kelly: You know the context and setting that this call is about. It’s specific community banks, cyber security risk, captive insurance. If you had to Google this, those three terms would be in there. One other risk if you do it as a group or collective, let’s just say there are two banks in the collective – you have Bank A and B that are, let’s say they’re putting in an equal amount. Let’s say Bank A has great internal controls and risk management processes, Bank B has terrible ones. Bank B incurs all the loss and Bank A has insured it all. There part of the reason was to put in a bunch of excess premium perhaps, build up this reserve. Then you have Bank B eating up all the reserves. Is there a way that a bank can set up a hybrid of this where they could share say, the operating expenses, maybe consulting expenses, a number of things related to the entity? It could be another class of stock, something where the actual risk is only absorbed by the individual bank and ultimately a reinsurance carrier downstream. Wes: There could be, but I wanted to go back to one point you made, which was Bank A has great internal controls and Bank B doesn’t. The issue with cyber security is many banks have good security or great security, but it’s also the luck of the draw. The person with bad security could be fine and the one with great internal controls could have that one in a million chance where somebody comes in and breaches their security or takes millions of dollars out of their company. Within the group captive there’s also cell companies. You can have a cell captive. A cell captive is one where it basically looks at and smells like one large insurance company but each individual bank has its own cell, so they kind of wall off the assets and liabilities on a bank by bank or cell by cell limit. That could go a long way to protecting the bank. Then you go get one reinsurance treaty for all of the banks, and then you carve it off. You go get 100 million dollars of coverage and you carve it off at 5 million dollars per bank for twenty banks. The insurance companies like that because they know that if they’re writing 100 million dollars in coverage and they basically divided it at 5 million between twenty banks, they know their chance of loss is actually smaller. The frequency may be higher but the severity probably wouldn’t, and that’s where they get into the pricing. They’d much rather spread it 5 million over twenty banks, than one bank have a 20 or 25 million dollar claim. Kelly: I accept your point that Bank A may have great controls and Bank B not, but Bank A could be hacked, right? I understand that’s a valid point, but I think in this environment what is going to happen is certainly you have the Top 10 banks, they’re the high-value targets of cyber criminals. They have the budget to always attempt to put up the adequate defenses to that. I fear what is going to happen is the less target-rich environments like community banks will, as the Top 10 banks for instance, get better at defense, then the smaller community banks are going to be the target and they don’t have the resources to fund that. It’s an expensive undertaking. where you’ve got hardware expenses, software, consulting, insurance, all of this stuff, and staff of course. My thinking was that you set up this captive and you develop best practices. I’m going back to my PWC days in consulting, where in consulting business you’re always looking for best practices, but you develop best practices and you share the costs. You buy them properly, buy them at the right price, right terms, etc, and then you share the cost over twenty entities and not one community bank. The reality is these banks can’t afford to set up the high-level controls that a Top 10 bank can do it. Wes: You’re exactly right. It’s the philosophy of build your ark before the flood comes. By creating their own insurance company and warehousing dollars today, because of the way the policies are written, they basically expire every 15 months. If they are the targets of cyber criminals three years from now, they would have already stockpiled a ton of money, so they can weather a claim if they have it and maybe not have to hit their reinsurance. To your point, we both know what’s happening in the cyber marketplace as far as the premium dollars in the traditional market. The reason why … it’s because insurance companies are doing the exact same thing. They’re charging exorbitant fees today because they don’t know how big this is going to be. It reminds me of the old asbestos claims. Remember when asbestos started being a problem? All of the insurance companies started raising their rates dramatically. Then what happened was, a couple of smart insurance guys said, “You’re charging $700,000 for a million dollar general liability policy for asbestos, but if the people actually get hurt, it’s going to be a worker’s comp claim.” It’s not going to be a general liability claim, but the insurance company hadn’t thought that far ahead. They just wanted to get as many dollars in their coffers as they could in case they got hit. For cyber, you went to that conference … you’re exactly right. Five years ago it would have been just the IT people and you’d have fifteen people in the room. Now it’s actually the C-level. It’s CEO, CLO, CFO that are doing this. Kelly: The board members are the ones that are saying, “Get to the conference. I want you there.” They’re telling their CEOs to get there. Wes: It’s huge. It’s such a huge problem. I was just reading an FBI report on cyber crime. Their prediction is all businesses in the next five years will be spending at least 10% of their gross income on cyber for protections and hardware and software, and everything. You can’t even fathom that today, but it’s coming. Now we have passwords on top of passwords to get into password programs. They listed off that the FBI did a study and they went into the Apple iTunes store where people get the applications and they have all these password programs. 10 of the top 20 were programs that were sold that said, “Number one password protector.” They were sold and designed by organized crime, downloading these programs for their iPhone and their Androids, putting all their passwords in, all their banking information, and all that stuff was being directly fed to Russian organized crime. They don’t have to steal cartons of cigarettes anymore when they can make 20 to 30 million dollars in one financial transaction. Kelly: Absolutely. Wes: It’s staggering. I can see why these board members and CFOs and everyone else would be concerned about it. It’s a big issue. One of our clients was just hit with it. Kelly: Let’s say we set up Newco captive insurance for community banks. You set up as part of this synthesis of best practices and captive insurance for cyber security. I’m going to throw in another term, “best practices.” I don’t necessarily think they’re into gouging. They just can’t efficiently price it because the risk parameters or the level of risk that they’re taking on an entity basis per entity, per insured, is all over the map. When you take in a company to join the captive … would you call them a shareholder? Wes: Yes. Kelly: Okay. When you take a shareholder, they have to adopt the best practices standards that the new captive insurance carrier says. Does that make sense, that would be part of the admission process? Wes: I would say you definitely want to do that. Some insurance companies, it’s really a risk assessment for cyber preparedness. There are some insurance companies that have done a great job at this. In fact, one of them, these people developed this cyber preparedness company for Ace and Chub insurance company, as freelancers. They said, “Well we want this to make sure.” For them they realized that, “Hey, there’s a real market for this.” They basically bought company back for nothing. This was a few years ago. They’re like, “Well this isn’t going to be as big as we thought it was.” That’s all they do is analyze cyber preparedness. They give you a full report. We just had them come into ours because we have a lot of data in our stuff. We have a lot of HIPPA stuff because we run insurance companies for medical, for example. They gave us a whole big report of change this, change this, change this, and some stuff you’d never even think about. You’re like, “Whoa.” The cost to do it … I thought it was going to be very expensive but it was nothing on the scale of things. Kelly: You just hope that they’re not owned by the Russian mob, right? Wes: Yeah, exactly. Three of my clients had used them and the one that just got hit for cyber, their system was set up in such a way where they were instantly notified that this was happening. This was a server in Toronto. Instantly they had to switch the whole thing offline. They flew two of their internal programmers from here in California up to Toronto. They were back online in under 24 hours without an ounce of data. I’m like, “You know what? I’ve got to have your people come in and do this.” This is a company that does 100 million dollars in sales. I think everyone should be requiring this. Kelly: I think there’s some really cool things you could do when you have many entities splitting the cost of this. I’m certainly set up best policies, procedures, all that kind of stuff. You could buy licenses. You get quantity discount, volume discounts there. There’s a lot of benefit to having a larger group in there. Even just the project team, these banks don’t have the resources to have a really good project team to do a good vendor search, for instance. That’s a costly undertaking in and of itself is, “Well what email provider should we do?” They just don’t have the resources free to do that. You threw out the 10% number. My goal would be to let’s set it up so the goal we could make that a 5% of revenue number, not 10. Wes: Or 1%. What I was saying was, that was what the FBI’s projection of what people would be spending on their cyber stuff was. In my business, I can’t even fathom that. We spend all this money a year on hardware and software, and our business is X. If I were to extrapolate that out to say, “Well how much would we do if we did 10%?” There’s like, “There’s no way.” We could buy server hubs. We could buy everything. I guarantee you if you picked ten of your banks who listen to this, one of them is doing something great that the other nine aren’t, and so having a depository … You say, “Hey this was a great idea that this bank is doing and then you could take it over to the other one.” Kelly: Yeah, but what happens, Wes, is that everybody is going to these conferences. They get the heck scared out of them, they come back and they talk to their IT guy and say, “You know I just went to a conference. We’ve got to start controlling this risk.” Then they look at it and realize that, “Oh this is going to cost $100,000? Oh I guess we can’t afford that.” There’s plenty of ideas out there. There are some great ideas and there is some not great ideas, but there’s loads of ideas. Taking the idea and having the resources to actually implement is the big challenge. I believe that the captive program is a way to pull those things together buy cost-efficiently, do vendor searches efficiently. It all comes together there through that thing. Yeah, there are some tax benefits by throwing in higher premiums, that kind of thing. That’s great but I don’t think this is primarily a tax-driven … It just so happens that taxes will be favorable … favorable tax treatment. I really think it’s the cost-effective way to manage risk and to get best practices adopted in community banks throughout the country that otherwise just can’t quite afford it in their budget. Wes: I was going to say, and you’re using double duty dollars. Right now if they buy cyber insurance from AIG, they’re not getting internal controls, they’re not getting all of this due diligence, they’re not having somebody come in. They pay them and then if there is a claim … They still on top of their premiums have to go out and do the best practices and do all of the stuff to make sure they’re secured vs. paying premiums to their own company. Let’s say the insurance company takes 10% of all the premiums that it takes in from all the companies and then uses that to go in and install the best practices and stuff, so you’re actually using money that you would have just given to somebody else to now improve your overall business operation. We’ve had people do that with worker’s comp where, hey they can’t afford a safety guy and their worker’s comp rates have gone up, so they create their own worker’s comp company and now they use the money they were giving to Liberty and AIG and all these other companies to hire their own full-time safety person. That’s actually now just an expense of the insurance company vs them having to take money out of the bottom line of their company. Kelly: One other thought that’s a great image that I have of you is set up this captive, you have fifty banks involved and you also fund a cyber security SWAT team comprised of Navy Seals and Rangers that are deployed in the event of some ransom war type deal, right? Then they get engaged, they’re ready to go, and then they go out and take them down. Wes: Yeah, that’s a great idea. Kelly: Otherwise it’s a call to the FBI and okay, they do great work, granted, but man it’d be nice to have our own team. That could be Phase 2 down the road. Anyway, let’s wrap it up. I really appreciate your time. Let me ask you this. Do you have a favorite quote? Wes: Yeah, well I do but it’s a Ayn Rand in Atlas Shrugged they talked about Rearden Metal and it was going to be too expensive to rebuild these bridges for the trains using Rearden Metal because of the engineering. The quote was, “When men got structural steel, they didn’t use it to build steel copies of wooden bridges.” Kelly: Good one. Wes: I look at captives and things like that as you can use it as a powerful tool to do something in a completely different way. You don’t have to just use it for the same way you were always doing stuff. I would say that would be the first one that popped into my mind. Kelly: What’s the stupidest thing you’ve ever done in your business career? Give people a laugh. Give people a chuckle here. Wes: Oh, I have an album on my bookshelf. You know Bill Withers, “Lean on Me”? Kelly: Lean on Me and “Use Me”. Wes: I got an appointment. His wife called and wanted me to come talk about overall financial planning and stuff. I went to see him and I’m like, “I love your music. I love the movie and everything.” They’re just sitting there like uh-huh, uh-huh. The meeting didn’t go well and I left there. I had it confused with Stand by Me instead of Lean on Me. My dad found this Bill Withers album and he said, “Keep this on your bookshelf and any time you don’t know the answer, you won’t make a complete fool of yourself.” Kelly: Oh that’s a great one! That’s very good, I love that one. All right, Wes. I appreciate your time. How can people contact you? Wes: Yeah, my website is Risk Management Advisors. It’s riskMGMTadvisors.com and my email is WSIERK@riskMGMTadvisors.com. I create a website that’s not branded by us, but it’s captiveinsurance101.com and it just has general info on captives. You were kind enough to mention my book. The book is called Taken Captive and it’s just takencaptive.com We want to thank you for listening to the syndicated audio program, BankBosun.com The audio content is produced by Kelly Coughlin, Chief Executive Officer of BankBosun, LLC; and syndicated by Seth Greene, Market Domination LLC, with the help of Kevin Boyle. Video content is produced by The Guildmaster Studio, Keenan Bobson Boyle. The voice introduction is me, Karim Kronfli. The program is hosted by Kelly Coughlin. If you like this program, please tell us. If you don’t, please tell us how we can improve it. Now, some disclaimers. Kelly is licensed with the Minnesota State Board of Accountancy as a Certified Public Accountant. Kelly provides bank owned life insurance portfolio and nonqualified benefit services to banks across the United States. The views expressed here are solely those of Kelly Coughlin and his guests in their private capacity and do not in any other way represent the views of any other agent, principal, employer, employee, vendor or supplier of Kelly Coughlin.

Kelly interviews Adam Mustafa, Invictus Consulting Group who talks about CECL and some of the challenges banks have in accounting for future credit loss.   elly Coughlin is CEO of BankBosun, a management consulting firm helping bank C-Level Officers navigate risk and discover reward. He is the host of the syndicated audio podcast, BankBosun.com. Kelly brings over 25 years of experience with companies like PWC, Lloyds Bank, and Merrill Lynch. On the podcast Kelly interviews key executives in the banking ecosystem to provide bank C-Suite officers, risk management, technology, and investment ideas and solutions to help them navigate risks and discover rewards. And now your host, Kelly Coughlin. Kelly: Hi, this is Kelly Coughlin with the BankBosun. I’m going to do an interview today with Adam Mustafa, who’s one of the founders of a company called Invictus Group. There’s been so much discussion in the last couple months on this new CECL regulation that’s coming down the pike here this year some time that deals with how banks are supposed to be valuing and estimating their credit loss. I read a report that Invictus put together, a 2016 regulatory outlook. I actually did three blog posts on it, so you can go to the blog section and read those, as well, and then I’ve appended the Invictus report, as well. With that in mind, I’ll get Adam on the line. Adam, we’re going to talk about some things that are relevant to the bank industry. Why don’t you give us some background on yourself, on Invictus. I see a Mustafa name at the top of the letterhead. I assume that’s a family member. Adam: Yes, my father and I co-founded the business, and like I tell everybody I’m the smarter, better looking version of him. I do all the work, and he gets to take all the credit. In all seriousness, we started the firm back in 2008 right after the financial crisis began. Today, our bread and butter is providing community banks with strategic advisory services that focus very heavily on using analytics to get an edge in terms of acquiring other banks, being able to analyze those banks and know those banks better than they know themselves, and using analytics also to customize their own capital requirements with their regulators in the face of increasing regulation and the implementation of Basel III. Kelly: You were with Deloitte Touche for a while. It looked like a number of your other guys came from the banking or investment banking circles. What’s kind of been the genesis of the partners? You and your dad, where did you guys come from? Adam: I’ve been very much an entrepreneur. I consider myself an entrepreneur first and foremost. I did work at Deloitte, and I was in their business evaluations group. I worked on Wall Street as a junior grunt earlier in my career. I’ve seen commercial banking and investment banking from a variety of different angles. My father’s background is far more impressive than mine. In many ways, a lot of the techniques we use today, my father learned from the great Walter Wriston at Citigroup. My father worked at Citibank in the late ’70s through the mid-’80s, where he was responsible for all mergers and acquisitions, including Citibank’s acquisitions of other financial institutions. He is a disciple of Walter Wriston. Again, a lot of the techniques we use today were originated by Wriston, and we’ve just updated it for today’s times. That’s our background. We like to say we put the A back in ALCO. What we do is, on the one hand, innovative, because as soon as the 2008 crises occurred, the conventional techniques for analyzing banks all broke down. We’ve developed new analytics, but at the same time, they go back to the fundamentals of banking. You could trace their origins back to the ’60s and the ’70s when Walter Wriston was running Citibank. Kelly: So now we get at the name Invictus and Invictus Group. Can I assume that it comes from the William Ernest Henley poem, “I am the master of my fate. I am the captain of my soul,” that type of Invictus, or is it another genesis? Adam: Yes, sir. You hit the nail on the head. In many ways it was very much a metaphor for the times we were in, circa 2008, 2009, when we were in the depths of the financial crisis. Nobody knew exactly what was going to happen, but everybody knew that the industry was never going to be the same. Kelly: Yeah, one of my favorite stanzas from that poem, it describes 2008 pretty well. It says, “In the fell clutch of circumstance, I have not winced nor cried aloud. Under the bludgeonings of chance, my head is bloody but unbowed.” It describes how many of us went through a very tough period. You also had some experience with the famous Jim Cramer. What was that like? Adam: I was with him long enough to have a cup of coffee. I don’t even think he would remember my name, although he called me Ace for some odd reason. It was a great experience because he is obviously very well-known and very well respected. He’s got a method to his madness, so just being able to observe him, even though he didn’t know my name, to watch him go about his day, watch him go about his process, I learned a heck of a lot from him. I’d actually tell you what I learned was that I don’t want to be a stock picker because that job is not only very difficult but is very short-term oriented. It is very focused on what companies are going to report quarterly earnings better than what the analysts thought. It was very focused on what tomorrow’s economic indicators were. It was too short-term oriented for me. And so if nothing else, I learned that I wouldn’t make much of a stock picker. Kelly: Let’s get right into it. I’ve known about you guys for a number of years, and I have great respect for the work that you do, but what got my attention I’d say most recently was this 2016 Regulatory Outlook. As I was pouring through that, it’s about a fifteen or twenty page report, most of which most CEOs and CFOs won’t read because it’s too long, I went through it and parsed it out into three components. One was a regulatory compliance cyber security thing. Part two was balance sheet risk management, and then part three, which was more board-level issues. Just briefly I want to skip to part two that got my attention. “Invictus research found seven hundred and fifty banks with commercial real estate concentrations above 250%. Regulatory guidance suggests banks have unhealthy concentrations.” That seems a lot. Adam: Yeah, it’s very hypocritical when you think about it, because on the one hand, there is these concentration ratios that are essentially monitoring community banks, in terms of their exposure to commercial real estate, but at the end of the day, that’s what community banks are. They are commercial real estate lenders. That’s what nine out of ten of them do. In many cases, of course they’re going to have concentration ratios in that range. The regulators tend to use 300% as a threshold, and if a bank goes over 300%, that’s when they will examine them a lot more thoroughly, but that’s what community banks do. Community banks, they’re like any other for-profit business. They’re in business to make money, and they have to make loans to make money. If you try to limit the number of loans they can make, then they won’t be able to make enough money, especially in this environment. And then on the other hand, if these ratios start to push them towards other forms of lending, such as C&I, then all of a sudden they don’t have expertise in C&I. It can be very dangerous making loans in areas where you don’t have an expertise in, and then the regulators will come after banks for venturing into lines of business where they may not have what they need from a skill set perspective. If they make too much of the loans that is their bread and butter, then they’re going to come under scrutiny, but if they try to diversify, they’ll come under scrutiny for getting into lines of business that they’re not familiar with. Community banks are in a very tough position. That being said, I understand where the regulators are coming from. When you look at the carnage of the 2008 financial crisis, and you study banks that failed and got into heavy trouble, there was heavy concentration. The key is, let’s evaluate the spirit of what’s happening. The spirit of what’s happening is that regulators don’t want banks to fail, but at the same time, banks got to stick to their bread and butter. At the end of the day and we work with a lot of banks who are over that 300% threshold. At the end of the day, the regulators will be comfortable, and a community bank could have a concentration level at 500% to capital, but they have to demonstrate to the regulators that they have the toolkit from the perspective of risk management, capital management, and the sophistication to manage that type of risk. Kelly: On this CECL business, what is the basic difference between from what banks are doing now in doing some sort of loan loss reserve? There seems to be this discussion on the life of the loan, and replacing and incurred loss approach with a lifetime expected loss estimate. It seems like, on origination, FASB and the regulators are going to say, “Okay, when you originate the loan, we want you to estimate how much you’re going to lose on this loan on origination.” When they do the loan, they’re not really expecting that they’re going to be losing on the life of the loan. Every credit they grant is estimated to be a good credit, so what is the difference here on the approach that they’re doing now, which is a basic allowance system possibly based on past results, versus this lifetime expected loss estimate? Adam: The primary difference is that CECL is designed to be forward looking, whereas the current process for recording a loan loss reserve is backward looking. That’s the primary difference. Kelly: Backward looking on their entire portfolio, not with that particular credit, but their overall portfolio, correct? Adam: Yes. Let’s examine quickly how banks today calculate their loan loss reserve. It’s actually very simple, but you could then see how broken it is. By the way, I’m not advocating here for CECL, but the one thing I can tell you right now is the current way of calculating ALLL (Allowance for Loan and Lease Losses) is a joke. Let’s start with what banks do as first step. They take all of their high quality loans, they call them pass-rated loans, or loans that are currently doing fine, they put them into pools, and they will calculate how much they expect to lose off that pool, but that calculation is based off their historical loss experience. It’s backward looking from that perspective. Then with the loans that are in trouble, they have to actually analyze those loans individually, and they will look at the collateral position of the loan. They’ll look at the borrower’s financials, and they will estimate using that data, which is also backward looking, how much reserve they need to have against those individual loans. Then you’ve got this third bucket. What CFOs will refer to is as is “qualitative factors”. Qualitative factors is the plug right now, the band aid that’s trying to bridge this gap of the ALLL being backward looking, and the idea that their own loss reserve should be forward looking. Essentially, these qualitative factors is like throwing darts at a board. The CFO or the chief credit officer will look at economic conditions locally and then add plus or minus 1, or 10, or 15% to these scorecards, and then they’ll try to use these score cards to pad their ALLL. The irony is that this bucket, these qualitative factors, for most banks is actually representing 90 or 95% of their loan loss reserve. 90 or 95% of bank’s loan loss reserve today right now is based off throwing darts at a board. Frankly, that is not effective. The irony is, is that although studies have shown that CECL would hurt banks and would require banks to add to the reserve, we actually don’t see that. For strong, healthy banks, this bucket of qualitative factors is such a large component of their ALLL. We actually think CECL would help a lot of banks because it would demonstrate with more science and far less art how actually less risky those loans are, depending on where and when they were originated. Kelly: Those qualitative factors that you mentioned, isn’t there a bit of an issue as to how that data is captured. Some of it is captured maybe in memory, some of it’s captured in a Word document, maybe it’s in Excel format. It’s not like there’s a standard input of this type of data, number one, and then number two, isn’t it true that much of that data is kind of subjective? Adam: That’s exactly my point. It’s like throwing darts at a board. It’s highly subjective. It’s 99% art, 1% science at the most, and yet these qualitative factors, the number coming out of that bucket, is representing 90 to 95% of a bank’s loan loss reserve. Kelly: Okay, but they’re still under the duty to try to compile that data, correct? That’ve got to collect it and compile, and then make some decisions based on that, right? Adam: There’s not a lot of data, that’s the problem, for them to collect. Many of them are doing their best to try to collect local or national economic data and try to interpret that, but it is literally like throwing darts at a board. Therein lies the problem. This is why the FASB wants to replace how banks are calculating their loan loss reserves now and replace it with CECL. If you went back to 2008, and you studied what happened in the crisis, a lot of banks didn’t have enough in the reserve. When we’ve done this, if you study failed banks and you looked at their loan loss provisioning, you would see zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, and then a huge spike in one quarter, the quarter where the regulators showed up, and all of a sudden, the banks is under-capitalized and then two quarters later they fail. There was too much volatility. The ALLL itself is highly subjective, easy to manipulate, especially for larger, publicly traded banks. The current system for ALLL completely broke down in the financial crisis, which is why FASB proposed CECL. Kelly: Wouldn’t it be true, though, that the qualitative factors that you mentioned that led to the ALLL analysis or result, those qualitative factors will help guide the CECL analysis, correct? Adam: CECL’s going to replace that, because the regulators know, FASB knows that these qualitative factors are a joke. The qualitative factors right now is a band aid. FASB wants to improve the methodology for the reserve in instead of relying on these qualitative factors. They want to have a lot more science to the process. They want it to be far more forward looking. That’s why they want to implement CECL. Kelly: I was under the impression, though, that some of those qualitative factors were part of the calculus of CECL, though. Adam: The spirit of it, yes. The spirit of the qualitative factors right now in the ALLL is to basically say, “Yeah, we know when we calculate our loan loss reserve off our pooled loans and our individually impaired loans that that number’s not big enough because economic conditions could change, and economic conditions right now are fragile, albeit, we’re in this recovery driven by artificially low interest rates. We know enough to know the environment is fragile. We need to find a way to capture that in the loan loss reserve, so let’s come up with these qualitative factors to fulfill that. It’s not a great approach. Kelly: The basic formula is something like probability of default, times exposure default, times loss of the given default, and that equals CECL. On that probability of default, therein lies the subjective element to that, correct? Adam: Any forward looking model is going to be dependent on assumptions, and assumptions will vary in terms of how much art and science is contributing to them. The methodology you just described, it is one methodology that is being recommended for CECL compliance. It’s probably going to be the most used methodology. The key assumptions such as probability default and loss given default themselves will require some subjectivity or art to it, but there’s a lot more science that can be used in that process. That’s how we work with our clients. Kelly: All right, so let’s move to the bigger picture here. Give us your take on this whole CECL thing. Is it a crisis? Is it something that CFO’s and CEOs and boards should put at the absolute top of the front burner? What’s your take on it? Adam: I think CECL doesn’t need to be so complicated. I think there are vendors who stand to benefit from CECL, who are either subconsciously or consciously creating the perception that CECL’s going to be far more complicated than it really need to be. Kelly: Both of us worked at Big 6 accounting firms in our early careers. I can picture, I was at PWC, and you were at Deloitte Touche? I mean these guys must be licking their chops at the size of some of these engagements, don’t you think, to get in there and help these banks out? Adam: Yeah, absolutely. Take your typical community bank where it’s hard enough to make money in this environment. Our perspective on it A) this could increase my loan loss reserve, which is going to decrease my earnings and my capital, and B), the cost of putting the system in place for even doing that calculation’s going to cost me money now. From a community bank’s perspective, I completely understand the concern. That being said, let’s set the record straight. CECL hasn’t yet been passed. They’re talking about early half of this year where they’re going to make a final decision on it, although, they hinted at the end of last year it’s likely going to happen. They also said there’s going to be a five year runway for compliance. So I don’t think community banks need to overreact to CECL. I think they need to develop a plan for CECL readiness, but I don’t think they need to rush into anything. I don’t think they need to panic about it. At the end of the day, CECL does not change the actual risk of a loan. If I make a loan to you today, the risk of that loan hasn’t gone up because of CECL. Maybe how I account for that risk has changed, but it doesn’t change the spirit of making loans. That all being said, here’s some things that community banks should be aware of. You know we talked about the life of the loan, but the other thing that community banks need to be aware of is the vintage of the loan matters. If you have a properly built CECL model, what you will find is that the risk profile of loans made during the early part of a credit cycle will actually be very low, but if you’re making a lot of loans in the late part of a credit cycle, the risk could be very high. If you’ve got the system in place, you’ll be able to analyze that and not just have the accounting treatment reflect it, but more importantly, it will highlight your strategic decision-making, and it will help provide community banks with a sense of the risk/reward trade-off of making new loans in different environments. What we found is, the time to make new loans is in the early part of a credit cycle and not the second half of a credit cycle, and CECL will just bring that point to the surface, but it doesn’t change the actual risk profile of the loan itself. Kelly: All right, let’s wrap it up. Do you have three to five takeaways you want to leave the bankers with? Adam: I’m just going to leave you with one takeaway. It’s a quote that summarizes everything that we’re seeing in this environment, CECL being one aspect of it, which is, “The worst loans are made in the best of times.” The opposite of that is actually also true. A CECL model will quantify that point, but with or without CECL, that point holds true, and community banks, from a strategic planning perspective, really need to think hard about that. Kelly: That’s a good one. We want to thank you for listening to the syndicated audio program, BankBosun.com The audio content is produced by Kelly Coughlin, Chief Executive Officer of BankBosun, LLC; and syndicated by Seth Greene, Market Domination LLC, with the help of Kevin Boyle. Video content is produced by The Guildmaster Studio, Keenan Bobson Boyle. The voice introduction is me, Karim Kronfli. The program is hosted by Kelly Coughlin. If you like this program, please tell us. If you don’t, please tell us how we can improve it. Now, some disclaimers. Kelly is licensed with the Minnesota State Board of Accountancy as a Certified Public Accountant. Kelly provides bank owned life insurance portfolio and nonqualified benefit services to banks across the United States. The views expressed here are solely those of Kelly Coughlin and his guests in their private capacity and do not in any other way represent the views of any other agent, principal, employer, employee, vendor or supplier of Kelly Coughlin.

Kelly Coughlin is interviwed by Chris Carlson. Chris is a lawyer and actor in Minneapolis and applies his Socratic method to extract from Kelly what the heck he is doing with BankBosun. Kelly Coughlin is CEO of BankBosun, a management consulting firm helping bank C-Level Officers navigate risk and discover reward. He is the host of the syndicated audio podcast, BankBosun.com. Kelly brings over 25 years of experience with companies like PWC, Lloyds Bank, and Merrill Lynch. On the podcast Kelly interviews key executives in the banking ecosystem to provide bank C-Suite officers, risk management, technology, and investment ideas and solutions to help them navigate risks and discover rewards. And now your host, Kelly Coughlin. Kelly: Hi, this is Kelly Coughlin. I’ve got my long-time friend Chris Carlson on the line. He’s CEO of Narrative Pros. Chris, are you there? Chris: I am. Kelly: Great. How are you doing? Chris: I’m pretty good. How about you? Kelly: I’m terrific. Chris and I were catching up. We haven’t talked with each other in a while, and we were catching up on what’s going on. Chris had a bunch of questions about what we’re doing at the Bank Bosun, and we thought, “Well, let’s turn this into a podcast.” Rather than me talking to Chris about what I’m doing, he’s going to ask me some questions so it will help him and the audience better understand what we’ve got going on. Chris I’m going to turn it over to you. Chris: All right. Well, I think first up on the order of business is letting everyone else know a little bit more about who you are. I’ve known you for a while, but why don’t you let people know a little bit more about yourself. Kelly: I’m 58, 4 daughters, 4 granddaughters, and I don’t know if you knew this, I have one grandson. Finally a male in the family. Chris: Oh, congratulations! Finally! Kelly: CPA. Went to Gonzaga University. My uncle is Father Bernard J. Coughlin who is President. Go Barney! He’s 92 now, and I always give him a shout-out when given the opportunity. I also got my MBA from Babson. Let’s see, I worked for PWC when it was Coopers and Lybrand, and then Lloyd’s Bank, CEO of an investment and financial technology company that I founded, managed, and sold. I don’t if I’ve touched base with you since I’ve started working with Equias Alliance as a risk consultant. They do bank-owned life insurance (BOLI) and non-qualified plan programs for banks. I don’t think we’ve really touched base since I started with them. Chris: No. It’s interesting. Kelly: Yes, it is. Chris: Speaking of which, explain to me this BankBosun. Am I saying that right? I take it it’s a nautical term. Kelly: Yeah. Technically, it’s spelled B-O-S-U-N on the website, BankBosun, but Bosun is actually spelled B-O-A-T-S-W-A-I-N, like boat swain, but it’s pronounced Bosun. Chris: Okay. Kelly: BankBosun, it’s a syndicated audio program, really, that’s designed to bring together executives all throughout the U.S. who are participating in what I call the bank ecosystem. Chris: Wait. I’m not going to let off the hook here. What does a boatswain do? Kelly: The captain of a ship needs help and guidance and support, so the boatswain helps the skipper, the captain of the ship, achieve its mission and purpose. Chris: All right. Yeah, that’s a segue because I’m connecting the dots as we speak as I listen to you. BankBosun helps C-level execs in the way. Is that right? Kelly: Yeah. That’s correct. We’re not dealing with ship captains. We’re dealing with bank officers, chief officers. It’s a clever play on the words C-officers, sea-level officers. Chris: It is clever. It’s very punny. A lot of puns. That’s good though. It keeps the interest. I’m not going to let off the hook with the other fancy term which is banking ecosystem. An ecosystem, if I remember it, that’s like the jungle. Right? What do you mean by banking ecosystem? Kelly: The jungle is one ecosystem, so technically it’s a biological community interacting within a set relationship among resources, habitats, and residents of the area. By this, I mean the residents of the banking community, so it’s all the residents of the banking community interacting among each other. The area is not defined as a physical definition like a pond or an ocean or a jungle. It’s defined as a business industry, and in this case, it’s the banking industry. Chris: Sure. All right. What do they need? I mean, why them? I mean, given your background it makes sense. Kelly: Why the banking ecosystem? Chris: Yeah, why do they need particular help and why are you the one to help direct that assistance? Kelly: Well, bankers are just fascinating, interesting people, aren’t they? Chris: Yes, yes they are. They evidently need a lot of help. Kelly: Well, I’ve been in the banking ecosystem, if we can keep using and then abusing and overusing that term, since I was 22. I started my career at Merrill in Seattle in the early 80’s selling mortgage-backed securities to the banks and credit unions. That was a good introduction to navigating this ecosystem. I would say that I learned a lot from that. Then I was consultant at PWC, and CEO of Lloyd’s at two asset management subsidiaries of Lloyd’s Bank, and then as a CEO of our financial technology company Global Bridge. Our primary market was banks, so I’ve been in this ecosystem, if you will, for many, many years, and I do find it interesting and fascinating. The 2008 crash, or melt down I should say, and several others that we’ve had in history, emphasize that banks are a foundation or bedrock of the economy. Frankly, they need all the help they can get. It’s good for the economy. Chris: These bankers you’re trying to reach, I’m assuming you’re doing it through these podcasts and other high-tech, and you’re pretty comfortable that they’ll be able to get the help they need through that and not be put off by it? It’s a good way to reach them? Kelly: Well, it’s certainly is not something that historically they’re used to and comfortable with. Historically it’s been print media, download reports, print them, stick them in your briefcase, read them when you can. Half the time you don’t read them, or if you do, you read them on the airplane and then chuck them. It’s not something that they’re used to right now, but I know as a CEO of a couple of companies in my past, that we pulled in so many different directions from different constituents whether it be board members or key customers or regulators, employees, suppliers, consultants, accountants, everybody is pulling at us and yanking at our time. CEO’s, generally, and CFO’s, but C-level execs, they need to extract value from all these different sources of information efficiently and effectively. I really am a proponent of the multitasking concept, so the idea was, “Let’s give them some good information, bring together this ecosystem, give them some good information but in a way that they can do other things.” Kelly: Frankly, we’re right in the middle of sporting season, football season and the World Series. I was actually down in Kansas City for the World Series. That was fun. The commercials are ridiculous in these sporting events especially football, so I figured out a way to multitask during these games. Certainly during football games you can read if you want, but also you can listen and learn too. CEO’s, you run your own company. You got a million things going on. Right? You’ve got to figure out a way to maximize the return off of that. Chris: Absolutely. Yeah. You said earlier that you think that it’s a time when banks have a greater challenge than they’ve had in the past, and with your nautical-themed assistance, give me a sense of why now is a particularly challenging time for banks and how you’re going to be able to help us. Kelly: Well, I like the nautical theme for the Bank Bosun. I’ve sailed for many years. I’ve lived in Seattle in the 80’s. To me skippering a boat was, where you have a lot of moving parts and people and weather and tides and currents and rocks and other boats to deal with and coast guard, the regulator, and it really served as a great metaphor for running a business, but especially a bank. I think any executive that’s been in charge of a boat knows exactly what I mean about that. When you’re out sailing in the Puget Sound or the ocean, you use whatever tools and information you can muster up to get you and your crew and your boat to the next point. There are no guide posts. There are no signs. You have to watch weather, currents, tides, all that kind of stuff. All of those principles apply to skippering a company, but especially a bank. Chris: That makes sense. You sold me on the metaphor. Kelly: Good. Chris: Tell me more about where you’re at right now and what the connection is with your Bank Bosun. Are they okay with this new gig? How do they relate? Kelly: Well, Equias is in the bank-owned life insurance space. BOLI is the acronym for that. I came across Equias and the BOLI industry when I was working on a management consulting project. I didn’t know anything about the industry or the product at that time, but after I finished the engagement I thought, “Man, I need to get into this space,” because I love the asset class, if you will. Frankly, it’s an alternative investment for banks’ portfolios. Now, it has to be surrounded by insurance and you have to make sure that insurance is a key part of it, but at the end of the day, it’s a phenomenal asset class. It transfers balance sheet risk. You get a higher return than treasuries, than municipal bonds, and that sort of thing, but I really do like the asset class. Then it has some benefits for funding non-qualified plans. The thing that I liked about it is it reminded me of my early Merrill Lynch days selling mortgage backed securities. At the time, mortgage backed securities were a new, innovative product. They had a few more moving parts involved, and it required me to simplify the value proposition. You really need to focus on the benefits, which everybody needs to do in any business. With any product, you’ve got to focus on the benefits. I always think of the line, “People don’t want a quarter-inch drill. They want a quarter-inch hole.” Now this is, at the end of the day, a life insurance product. I also love the line by Woody Allen, “I tried to commit suicide one day by inhaling next to an insurance salesman.” There’s always some inherent bias against that. My father sold insurance, and I told that to him when I was about 22 or something. He didn’t find it that funny actually. I find it funny. Chris: It is funny. It’s a funny line. Kelly: Yeah, it is. Chris: It’s funny because the word inhaling is funny. Kelly: You’re going to probably offend somebody. Chris: Probably, but that’s not your target market. Kelly: They’re my colleagues. Chris: Your friends, as it were. Speaking of friends, I haven’t wished you, my friend, a Happy New Year. We’re about a year into it here, and you see all these lists coming out, top movies, top TV shows. Why don’t you give me the top three initiatives for, BOLI, or for the banking ecosystem? Kelly: Okay. Chris: Pick your field. Kelly: Well, I certainly have three, but I’m not going to tell you two of them because I wouldn’t want to tip off our competitors onto what I’ve got up my proverbial sleeve. Chris: Okay. Kelly: Stay tuned. News at 5. Chris: That’s right. Kelly: Let me hear your sales voice say that. Chris: News at 5. Now it’s, News in 5 seconds. I asked you for the top three initiatives for 2016 and you said that you’ll give me one. Kelly: I’ll give you one. Chris: It’s called negotiating? Kelly: Yeah. Chris: Okay. Kelly: The one that I’m intrigued by is a confluence of two things. One is cyber security risk. Chris: All right. Kelly: The other is risk transference of that risk. I want to explore whether it makes sense to pursue a captive insurance program for banks to underwrite cyber security risk. Setup a collective or a community to do that. I think it’s being mispriced now by insurance companies because they haven’t really identified the risk. They haven’t really identified how big the risk is, how to mitigate the risk, and then how to price it. Anytime you have unknowns like that, especially in insurance, you get over, mispricing, I should say. That’s something that intrigues me. Chris: Yeah, it makes sense. Kelly: Yeah. The other two I’m not going to tell you about. Chris: Perfect! In the acting business, we call this dramatic tension, which you’ve done a good job of creating. Kelly: Thanks! Chris: Well it sounds interesting. It’s good stuff. We want to thank you for listening to the syndicated audio program, BankBosun.com The audio content is produced by Kelly Coughlin, Chief Executive Officer of BankBosun, LLC; and syndicated by Seth Greene, Market Domination LLC, with the help of Kevin Boyle. Video content is produced by The Guildmaster Studio, Keenan Bobson Boyle. The voice introduction is me, Karim Kronfli. The program is hosted by Kelly Coughlin. If you like this program, please tell us. If you don’t, please tell us how we can improve it. Now, some disclaimers Kelly is licensed with the Minnesota State Board of Accountancy as a Certified Public Accountant. Kelly provides bank owned life insurance portfolio and nonqualified benefit services to banks across the United States. The views expressed here are solely those of Kelly Coughlin and his guests in their private capacity and do not in any other way represent the views of any other agent, principal, employer, employee, vendor or supplier of Kelly Coughlin.