Podcast appearances and mentions of linda well

On this episode, my guests are Martin Lena and Linda Poppe of Survival International. They join me to discuss “fortress conservation” in the Congo, the issues facing Kahuzi-Biega National Park, and the recent victories of Survival International there. Linda is a political scientist and director of the Berlin office of Survival International, the global movement for Indigenous peoples' rights. She is also part of Survival's campaign to Decolonize Conservation, which supports Indigenous peoples, who continue to suffer land theft and human rights abuses in the name of conservation.Martin is an advocacy officer for Survival International. He primarily works on Survival's campaign to Decolonize Conservation and has collected testimonies directly from communities facing violations of their rights in the name of conservation. Show Notes:What Conservation Looks like in the Democratic Republic of the CongoThe Evictions of the BatwaSafari Tourism in DRC ConflictThe Militarization of Conservation in Kahuzi-Biega National ParkLand Guards vs Land GuardiansOrganizing Victory! Scrapping French Involvement in Kahuze-BiegaThe German Government Continues to Fund the ParkSolidarity: How to Respond / Act in ConcertHomework:Survival International: French government scraps funding plan for Kahuzi-Biega National Park, citing human rights concernsSurvival International Decolonize Conservation CampaignBalancing Act: The Imperative of Social and Ecological Justice in Kahuzi-BiegaTranscript:Chris: [00:00:00] Welcome to the End of Tourism Podcast, Martin and Linda. I'd love it if I could start by asking you two to explain to our listeners where you two find yourselves today and what the world looks like there for you. Linda: Well, hi everyone. My name is Linda. I work for Survival International and I'm in Berlin. I'm at home, actually, and I look forward to talking to you and chatting with you.It's dark outside already, but, well, that's, I guess, the time of the year. Martin: And I'm based in Paris, also at home, but I work at Survival's French office. And how does the world feel right now? It feels a bit too warm for October, but other than that. Chris: Well, thank you both for for joining me today. I'd like to begin by reminiscing on the season three interview that I had with your colleague Fiore Longo, entitled "Decolonizing Conservation in Africa and Beyond."And in that interview, we discussed the history [00:01:00] of conservation as colonization in the context of Tanzania and the national parks that were built there and the indigenous lands that were stolen in order to do so. I'm curious if you two could offer a bit of background for our listeners in terms of the history of conservation in the Democratic Republic of the Congo and especially in regards to the Batwa people and the Kahuzi Biega National Park.Linda: We were quite you know, astonished of the colonial history that, we find in the park where we're here to discuss today. Well, the Congo, obviously, you know, was a colony. And I think in this context, we also need to look at the conservation that is happening in the DRC today.And a lot of the things that you have discussed with our colleague, feel very true for the DRC as well. And the, the park that we're going to look at today, I think it's probably [00:02:00] also the best example to start to explain a little bit what conservation looks like in DRC. It's an older park, so it was created a longer time ago, and it was always regarded as something that is there to protect precious nature for people to look at and not for people to go and live in.And this is exactly what the problem is today, which we see continues, that the people that used to live on this land are being pushed outside violently, separated from the land which they call home, which is everything for them, the supermarket, the church, the school, just in the name of conserving supposed nature.And unfortunately, this is something that we see all over the DRC and different protected areas that exist there, that we still follow this colonial idea of mostly European [00:03:00] conservationists in history and also currently that claim that they're protecting nature, often in tandem with international conservation NGOs.In the park we look at today, it's the Wildlife Conservation Society, and they're, yeah, trying to get rid of the original inhabitants that have guarded these spaces for such a long time. Martin: To build on that, in our campaign to decolonize conservation and survival, we often say that fortress conservation has deep colonial roots and you can definitely see that with the the actual history of the of Kahuzi Biega National Park because it started as a reserve that was created by the Belgian colonial government in 1937 and It was transformed into a national park after independence.So in the 70s, but it was still designated as such following the lobbying of a Belgian conservationist. So it's really the continuation the Western and the European will to keep controlling the, [00:04:00] the independent territories. And that in Africa oftentimes was done through conservation.Linda: And it also has this idea of, I think a lot of the conservation projects that we see, Martin just said it, there was also this post independence push on creating national parks, which was obviously related to the idea that Europeans might lose hold of control in certain areas, so they were pushing for the creation of national parks like the Kahuzi Biega National Park.And that is the setting that we're talking about, basically, something that has very colonial roots and has been pushed into the post colonial era, but in a way which is actually very colonial. Chris: Thank you both for that brief, brief history and introduction into what we'll be speaking about today, Linda, you mentioned that so many of the circumstances around the creation of these national parks includes the exclusion and [00:05:00] displacement of the original inhabitants.And in this case, among others, this includes the Batwa people. And so I'd like to just give our listeners a little bit of a context for what's happened to the Batwa in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. And so the statistics tell us that "over 90 percent of the 87, 000 indigenous Batwa people in the park have lost legal access to their native territory, turned into conservation areas, and who are desperately poor," according to a 2009 United Nations report.Now, in a recent Reuters article, it's written that, quote, "Local human rights and environmental experts say that the authorities failure to fulfill promises to the Batwa has undermined efforts to protect the forest and its endangered species, including some of the last populations of eastern lowland gorilla.Some of the Batwa around the [00:06:00] park participate in the illegal poaching, mining, and logging that are destroying the gorilla's globally significant habitat. As a result, the conservation outlook for the park is critical, according to the International Union for Conservation of Nature." The article goes further and says that "the Batwa have no choice because they are poverty stricken, according to Josue Aruna, president of the province's environmental civil society group, who does community outreach for the Batwa." It seems in this way that the land rights and traditional lifestyles of the Batwa are intimately tied to the health and survival of the ecosystems within the national park, which they've been excluded from, and that their poverty is a consequence of their displacement. Do you think that the issue is as simple as that? Martin: It's always interesting to read these reports from the conservationists, whether it's the IUCN or the NGOs, because the problem is always "the local people. So they are poor and they [00:07:00] have no choice. They participate in poaching." and it's always their fault.Like you were saying, if they end up being poor it's because they were evicted from the land. And as Linda was saying earlier, the forest and the land more generally is everything to them or was everything to them. So it's not only the place where they get food, it's also the whole basis of their identity and their way of life.So once they lose that, they end up in our world, capitalist system, but at the lowest possible level. So, that's why they end up in poverty. But it's a problem that was created by the conservationists themselves. And even when you read Their discourse or their position about trying to improve the situation for the Batwa, it's always about generating revenue ,lifting them out of poverty, developing alternative livelihoods. But what we are campaigning for is not some alternative to the loss of their rights. It's Their land rights themselves. And to go to your other question [00:08:00] about the fact that the loss of their land rights has led to a degrading in the health of the ecosystem.I think, yes, for sure. That has been the case, and it's what we're seeing all around the world in these protected areas that are supposed to protect nature. But actually, once you evict the best conservationists and the people that were taking care of the land for decades, then there is room for all kinds of exploitation whether it be mass tourism or luxury safaris or even mining and logging concessions.So it's not a coincidence if 80 percent of the biodiversity on the planet is located in indigenous territories. It's because they have lived in the land. It's not wild nature. They have lived there for generations. They have protected it and they have shaped it through their practices. So, to us, the best way to protect this ecosystem is to ensure that their land rights are respected and blaming them for poaching or putting that on the fact that they are poor, it's just [00:09:00] dishonest and ignoring the basis of the problem.Linda: Yeah. I agree. And when you just read out these sentences, I noted down like the way it was formulated, as a result, the park is threatened. It's again, just focusing on the local people as being the problem. Like the protected areas, they are to protect an area from the local people, which I think becomes very clear in the way you explained it. And also, like, Martin, I'm quite struck by the idea that they talk about poor people, but ignoring that, you know, their actions that of the Batwa have also caused this poverty. So it's, in a way, you know, first you make people poor and then you kind of insult them almost for being poor and then, you know, acting accordingly.I think that is quite, you know, ignoring what has happened. And I think it's the same with [00:10:00] the general model of conservation. Like the sentences you read, I mean, there is some sympathy in it, you know, it sounds like, "oh, these poor people," you know, "in a way we regret what has happened and that they were evicted."But it's like "those poor people," they don't really look at, you know, why were they evicted and what are the consequences for our kind of conservation today? Like the consequence could be that the Batwa can return to their land because they are the best guardians and because it would give them a base to, to live, not in poverty.So that consequence, they don't see it's because they ignore all the things that have caused the supposed poverty and have caused this kind of conservation that we see. So, don't think about what we've done in the past, we'll just go on, but that is a problem because they don't learn any lessons from what has happened and that land rights should be so important.Chris: Yeah, I think that it definitely points towards this notion that I think a lot of people are becoming apt to in our [00:11:00] times in these days, which is the general kind of approach to the dilemmas in these contexts are to look at the symptoms of the dilemma and not the causes.And in the context of the eviction and exile, displacement of the Batwa people, one of the articles mentions that "one of the consequences of the induced poverty includes the endangering and further endangering of the eastern lowland gorilla." And I mention this because in my research leading up to this interview, this conversation, I looked into the tourism offerings in Kahuzi Biega, in the National Park, and I found the following.I'm just gonna read off a list of what I did find. " Gorilla safaris, or trekking. Chimpanzee Rehabilitation Center tours. Camping safaris. Cultural tours. Bird [00:12:00] watching. Hiking. Climbing and boat cruises." And so my next question is this. To what extent does the safari tourism in the national park play a part in this conflict?Linda: Oh, that's a super interesting question. I mean, it obviously depends on the specific park that you look at. But I think I would say in almost any national park that we look at in Survival, there is some kind of idea that this park needs to have tourists. Tourists need to come and go and see the beauty of nature, ideally Western tourists, so that they become involved in conservation and donate money, and also in a way that tourism would be a way to pay for services that are related to maintaining the park.So it's something that usually always pops up. It's kind of, it's like twins a little bit. And, you know, I, I work on, on [00:13:00] mostly German politics and how they relate to this conservation. And it's something that you can't really separate where you read about conservation projects that the German government funds, you will always also read about tourism.So they're very interlinked. In some parks, you know, there isn't a lot of tourism because the situation is not very attractive to western tourists, but the idea is always there. And then the extent to which tourism actually happens obviously differs and then has different effects. In some parks that we work on, There's a lot of tourism, there's a lot of creation of infrastructure for tourists, hotels, for roads, for tourist vehicles to go places.Then it obviously has a much stronger impact on the area and also on the people that live there. If there are less tourists, then the actual effect of tourism is, of course, a little bit less than it might sound in these proposals to have tourists there at all.Chris: In the [00:14:00] context of conflict zones, which from what I understand this particular park in the Congo is a conflict zone, or at least parts of it, that tourism can act as a kind of barrier between local populations or local ecologies and the consequences of those conflict zones, right? But it doesn't necessarily stop the conflict. It just turns it underground, it turns a kind of blind eye to it, waiting, in most instances that I know of, until the organized crime in the area ends up getting, you know, their hands into the economy of, of the tourism itself.Martin: Yeah, I mean, I agree with Linda that it's always there and it's always under the discourse and it's never only about conservation, there's always tourism. And often the national parks are created for this purpose. If you read the UNESCO definition or the IUCN definition of what a national park is, it says it's also for [00:15:00] recreation.So these places are built for tourists. against the locals. So, yeah, it's always there and it's even in the definition.Linda: So yeah, when you said tourism is a barrier in some cases tourism can amplify the problems that are there because there is more eviction or there's more interest of, for example, governments to evict people, to create this great picture of nature, which is so attractive to tourists.So I think, I would find it as something that can really worsen the situation. I think from what I've seen, you know. We sometimes talk about sustainable tourism or respectful tourism, but in the terms of conservation projects, my impression really is that it's been harmful.And the indigenous populations that work in tourism, which is one of the things that funders of conservation projects often [00:16:00] say, that they can find jobs in tourism. A lot of these jobs are not very good. And I would argue that a lot of times people need to take these jobs because they have lost the choice to not take a job and live from the forest.Chris: Yeah, it's an interesting thing to wonder about in the little research that I did around what's happening in this particular park in the Congo, that there are rebel groups. It is a conflict zone, and yet there are these tourism offerings, right? And that surely, the champions of the National Park and conservation and in many areas would say, "well, you know, the more, the more tourism we can get in here the more we can undermine at least the economic causes if not the political ones that are contributing to the violence," when in fact, from what I can understand from Survival's work, that this is just deepens the causes that produced that conflict and that exile in the first place.Linda: Yeah. And I think there's also [00:17:00] perception of injustice, which we shouldn't underestimate. I mean, if you're an indigenous person that has been violently evicted or whose family has been violently evicted from a certain area, and then you see, Western tourists mostly, which are rich, you know, pay a lot of money for these trips, are allowed to go in and use that area in a way. I think that also creates, yeah, a sense of injustice, which is also, yeah, it's quite, quite sad. Chris: Mm hmm. Definitely. And then that's certainly what we see in over touristed places around the world and in places that are just starting to become over touristed, this kind of deep resentment amongst locals for the inequalities, the growing inequalities and yeah, as well, the injustices that these industries bring.And so on that point of conflict zones, especially in and around Kahuzi Biega. I wanted to ask you both a question around the militarization of conservation. So, [00:18:00] some people believe that militarized park police, which is what exists in this park, are a necessary evil.Officially, at least, "the guards protect the park from armed militias or rebel groups in the area, ensuring that they stay out of the park." Of course, those who they confront and sometimes attack also include the indigenous people, the Batwa in this case, who are trying to retake and reclaim their ancestral lands.And the argument is that without the guards, the land would fall into the hands of much more malevolent groups or forces. And so how do you think the presence of armed conflict as well as militarized conservation guards complicates the issue? Linda: That's a tough question. Well, maybe I can just give like a little anecdote.It was actually about this park, the [00:19:00] Kahuzi Biega National Park, and we were talking to German politicians and government officials about the problem of conflict and about the problem that these park rangers you know, are trained and have a lot of weapons, which seems very militant. And they, they were seeing the problem.They were seeing that this is probably not the best thing they should do, support security forces in an area which is already so problematic. But their thinking was, if we don't give them the money, now we have created this this force, basically. We have hired people, we have trained them.Now, if we stop supporting them, what are they going to do? You know, they're gonna maybe take the training and their weapons and make it even worse. So in a way, I mean, this was off record, right? They were just kind of thinking out loud. But in a way, they were seeing that the projects that they have supported have created structures which [00:20:00] very likely will increase conflict.And it seems quite obvious also because you see all these conflicts with indigenous peoples. So, I'm not going to say that it's a very peaceful area and there is not a need maybe for people to defend themselves. But in a way, the structures that we have in militarized conservation are not the solution.You know, they make the situation much more complicated than it initially was. And now, like, in this park, we're in a situation where we witness terrible human rights abuses, and everyone's scared to act and do something because it could get even worse. And it's, yeah, it doesn't seem like a very good solution.I think we need another way. We can't just stick our head, and say, oh, you know, we just go on, we'll just go on and then let someone else deal with it in a few years. I don't think that's a very good solution. Very good example.Martin: And it's questionable also to what extent do these these guards, these armed [00:21:00] rangers actually protect the, the parks and the species because they are here supposedly to fight against illegal wildlife trade and poaching and everything.But what studies have shown is that the root cause of of poaching and of the, of the illegal wildlife trade is mostly the demand for such products that comes from industrialized countries or at least other parts of the world and the system is made for the guards to take action against the local population and not against the actual criminal networks that lead to illegal wildlife trade and poaching.They get money for people they arrest and the easiest people to find are the locals that are trying to get to their ancestral lands. And there's also sometimes the park management involved in these criminal networks. So, you pretend to put in place a system to fight against illegal wildlife trade, but there ends up being no choice but [00:22:00] for the guards to, to take on the local people. Linda: Maybe we should also think about the indigenous populations as guards, or maybe guardians is the better word, of this area. And if we zoom out of the DRC and look at South America, where we have much stronger land rights... it's not perfect, but of course, better for indigenous people.They often act as guardians or guards of these territories, even though they're also confronted with illegal logging, quite brutal illegal logging, for example. But in a way, they are there and they, of course, are supported by authorities ideally, in defending these territories, but you see a less violent or militarized conflict because you have the indigenous guardians, as opposed to starting out with their protected [00:23:00] areas and armed guards, which are not just there to defend themselves, but have extensive rights of use of violence, and they don't have to fear any repercussions if something goes wrong and they kill, for example, an indigenous person.I mean, that's what we've seen in this park, that they can basically act with impunity. Chris: And thank you, Linda, for offering that example of the difference or the contrast between places like the Kahuzi Biega National Park and the DRC and other places in South America, for example, where there is this inherited intergenerational understanding of guardianship and while there's only maybe a half a century of conservation industry in these places, of course, they're an extension of the colonial project or projects that were undertaken much further back in time in places like Africa and places like the DRC before it was known as such.And then what happens, you know, after X amount of [00:24:00] generations after this kind of exile and displacement, that there is no lived memory anymore of what it means to be a guardian of your place. And I don't just mean as a title, but in terms of how you guard that place, as an indigenous person.We might be able to say that the Western world or the modern world that that's very much what we've become is people who are unable to remember or have a lived memory of what it's like to adequately stand as guardians for a place. You know, I think with the work that you two in Survival International are doing, there's a path forward towards that.And I'd like to remind our listeners that we're also here speaking today in part because there was a victory that was won by Survival International on behalf of the Batwa people and activists like yourself. And so I'd like to just read very briefly from [00:25:00] July 2023 press release from Survival International, in which it is said that, quote, "in a landmark decision, the French government has scrapped its plan to fund the controversial Kahuzi Biega National Park in the Democratic Republic of the Congo."France's Minister of State for Development, francophonie and International Partnerships, Chrysoula Zacharopoulou, confirmed that the plan to begin financing the Kahuzi Biega National Park has been scrapped. Ms. Zacharopoulou said, quote, "It has been abandoned, in line with our requirement for the respect of human rights."So first of all, I'd like to say congratulations to you both and to your teams at Survival for for getting this this victory and for doing the work you need to do in order to get there. And I'd like to [00:26:00] ask about the strategies that were employed in order to revoke French support for the park. You know, so many of these efforts and victories are either ignored in the context of the endless dilemmas or they're celebrated kind of superficially without considering the work it took to organize such campaigns.And so my question is, how has this campaign been organized by Survival International? Martin: Well, to give a bit of context the first time we heard about the French Development Agency planning on funding Kahuzi Biega, it was in the exact same time period as the publication of a report by Minority Rights Group International detailing brutal waves of violence in 2019 and until 2020 of appalling human rights abuses. So, atrocities that including murder, torture, rape [00:27:00] the burning alive of children, the burning of villages. So, we are, in this context, where we are reading the minority rights group report and understanding the scale of these waves of violence against the Batwa.And around the same period, we see that the French Development Agency has been a delegation, including the director, has been to the park and plans on funding it. So, of course we are appalled and and decide to write to the French Development Agency, but also to the to the ministry that has oversight.So, one of them is the Ministry for Foreign Affairs. And then we wait. And then we also got the support of a senator who also sent a letter and asked a question in Parliament to the government about their plan to fund this park in the context of these human rights violations.And so in July 2022, so last year, they decided to suspend temporarily the project. It was also in the context of an internal scandal because there was an expert[00:28:00] in the field and contracted by the French development agency to carry out a feasibility study. And he was basically saying around, and it can be heard in recordings saying that basically the study is just a formality and that the decision to fund the park has already been made.So there's both scandals. An internal scandal about the due diligence apparently being considered a formality on the field and the scandal of the very detailed report that had just gone out about the atrocities. So, that led to a temporary suspension. And they said that they would conclude the study and look into the abuses into social aspects.And then a year passed and we kept sending letters, of course, and doing some public campaigning about it on social media, et cetera. And then the senator asked again a question in July this year, and that's when we learned that the project was cancelled. So, of course, it's a victory, and it shows that sometimes the government actually does have the oversight[00:29:00] on the development agencies and takes the right decisions.But, of course, it's just the whole model still needs to be challenged and the park still has many international backers, even in the context of the atrocities that we that we know about. Chris: Mm. So the senator that asked about the status of the funding and found out that it was in fact scrapped, the scrapping of the funding was never made public until that point?Or there was never any press release saying so? Martin: No, they made it public, In the answer to the question, orally, in, in commission in Parliament. Chris: Mm. And would there be no way that the French public, for example, would be able to find out about this otherwise?Martin: I don't think so. And to be honest, I'm not even sure the decision had been taken before. I think they looked into it again because the senator asked a question again, but that's just speculation. Chris: And you spoke about writing letters, obviously to politicians and to the ministries [00:30:00] and also social media campaigns. Do you think there was more of an effect on the scrapping of the funding because of the public campaign, the social media campaign? Martin: Yeah, I think and that's basically the whole premise on which our campaigns are based is that an efficient mobilization of the public opinion will lead and the fact that the public cares and is informed will lead to a more efficient lobbying and advocacy of the governments and, and other government agencies. So yeah, I think one can't go without the other. And I don't know what would have happened if only the Senator had asked the questions or if only the Senator had asked a question or if we had only sent a letter and no public campaigning at all, or no press release, or no social media, I don't know. So I think, yeah, both go hand in hand.Chris: Mm hmm.So do you think that without the report from the Minority Rights Group, that the funding would have gone ahead, regardless of what was actually happening there? Martin: It's possible because we know that the funders were aware for years and [00:31:00] years of the human rights violations. And even before the waves of violence that are described in the report, we know that they were aware of that risk of violence at that time and of the human rights violation in the whole context of the militarized park.So, I think it could have very well gone ahead, because the other funders knew and kept funding it. And yeah, it's very important to get that kind of report with very detailed testimonies and information from the ground, and really documenting these atrocities. Otherwise, it's just business as usual.Chris: And the original proposal for the funding at least by the French government or the ministries involved, they were basically just promoting conservation in the way that it typically is. That's what the funding was for? Martin: Well, it's hard to know because they never published anything and actually, they never actually started funding it.It was just, just a project. Like I said, they went on a visit there and started making [00:32:00] promise to the local conservation agencies and to the local authorities. It's not clear to this day what exactly they were planning on funding, but it was clearly stated that there were planning on supporting the park itself, but I don't know for which kind of activities, but still, funding the same structure that that has been responsible for these abuses is still unacceptable.Chris: Mm hmm sounds "sketchy," as we say in English. And and so for our listeners, just a little bit of further context while France simply abandoned plans, the country had not yet made, or the government had not yet made, Germany continues to finance the park despite France's, however, subtle acknowledgment of human rights violations.And so, Linda, my question for you is, first of all, why is Germany funding a national park in the DRC to begin with? And, if you know, [00:33:00] how does that money get spent? Linda: Well, I guess the, the German interest in this park is pretty old, so the German government started funding the park already in the 80s.And there were some other projects even before that, supposedly. But it's considered to be a very, well, it obviously is a very long running project financed by the German government. And some local people call it the German park, because they assume that without the German funding, it wouldn't even exist. Like the kind of money that has been given over decades and the kind of things that have been funded, the infrastructure, the Congolese conservation authorities, the park rangers, you know, all the things that were funded basically crucial for the park to function. So yeah, it is a very German funded project. And also the German government has for very, a very long time looked at it as being a prestigious [00:34:00] project.You know, it was this great park, the gorillas, you already mentioned it, you know, and the Germans been funding it, which when you know a bit about German history, post World War II, there was a lot of interest in biodiversity and conservation funding because it was a good thing to do, which gave Germany a little bit of a different international picture than it had after the war.So there was a lot of interest in funding projects, and they were perceived as being fantastic, and they were shown to be these great projects that Germany is supporting internationally. And then, obviously, it isn't, but the German government has been very, very good at denying that there are these problems, and the role that it has had in facilitating these horrific human rights abuses. Mm. Chris: And how, if at all, has the German government responded to the [00:35:00] scrapping of the French funding? Linda: Very good timing, because I just got a response today, actually from the German government. Mm. 'cause we did point out to them that the French government has decided to not fund the park because of the violations of indigenous people's rights and because of human rights concerns. So we pointed this out to the ministry again, just in case, they would not have learned about this themselves. But the reply basically doesn't address this at all. You know, this was what we wrote the letter about and the replies about all the great things that the German government keeps funding and the improvements it is supposedly seeing on the ground and these improvements justifying their continued support.So it's just a letter explaining why they continue funding it and not addressing why maybe partners like the French government have decided not to fund it. And it's something that we have seen over the years. I think [00:36:00] survival first raised human rights violations in the Kahuzi Biega National Park in actually 2017, so that's quite a few years ago.There was a Batwa family. A father with his son, a teenage son. They were going into the park to collect herbs for medicine because another son of the family was sick. They encountered park rangers who killed the teenager and hurt wounded the father. So it was quite a terrible incident.And the father wrote to the German government, to the funders, and he complained about these human rights violations and the fact that the Batwa had lost access to the park and to their livelihood because of the German funding. The German government just said, "well, you know, there's not much we can do about it, basically."They tried to pay some money, but then really nothing, nothing else happened. And over the years, the situation hasn't improved. It has [00:37:00] gotten worse. But the German government keeps saying that they have faith in the Congolese conservation authorities and they do not see grounds to stop the funding or the project.They keep saying that they see progress. And things will get better. And we know it hasn't gone better. Chris: I'd like to return anyways to this this question around tactics and strategies and organizing. It seems that activists and those not directly involved in social movements struggle with the weight of our times.I mean, it's you know, kind of hard to ignore these days. And so, given that the German government, I imagine, is the obvious next target in the campaign to defund Kahuzi Biega, or at least the conservation authorities and programs there, what tactics, what strategies are being employed by Survival in your campaigns, [00:38:00] and how might our listeners in Germany, France, Europe, and, and beyond, how might they participate?Linda: That's a very good question, because, as I said, you know, Survival has been working on this for a few years, and there's a little bit of frustration, of course, that not much is happening in the terms of acknowledging the problem of funding this park. I think what Survival, what we're thinking is, quite important in this issue of conservation is making sure that donors in the West understand that this is a very symptomatic problem.So, a lot of conservation projects function like this and it is because there is this underlying problem with them, that they do not acknowledge land rights. But they continue to say that certain government authorities or certain conservation organizations are best put to run these places. It's the same with the [00:39:00] Kahuzi Biega National Park.The German government now says, "well, we know there are problems, so we pull in the WCS. They're the conservation organization and everything will be better. But it won't because they also have a record of not respecting indigenous people's rights. So, we need to make them understand that there is this underlying issue of not acknowledging indigenous people's land rights.And we try to do this by pointing out that this is a problem which is happening in a lot of national parks. So, protected areas that Survival has looked at in Africa and Asia, almost all of them, even the ones that we were told were good examples, have these problems. And we try to show that to the donors that have such big impact on these conservation projects and make them rethink what they're doing.It's a very difficult process, of course, because they've always done it in a different way. And now it's hard for them to think [00:40:00] about, you know, giving control and power to local people, which until now they've always said is a threat to conservation. It's like a total turn of what they assumed so far.But for us, it seems like that's the thing that we have to do for them to actually acknowledge the problem, because otherwise all the solutions that they come up with are not real solutions. They put people like the WCS in power, which is also not going to respect the Batwas' rights. Chris: Yeah, I think one of the critiques around development is in the context of these industries, especially things like conservation, volunteerism is another one that as industries, you would imagine that they would have in their mission statement, or vision, or ten-year plan, the slow and intentional disappearance of their own industry, right? Because if what they were [00:41:00] doing was working, we would need less of them. And there would be less of them, but here we are, right? And it's just, of course, a massively growing industry, both conservation and volunteerism. Martin: Yeah, it's true that our key targets are the donors, because like many of the issues that indigenous peoples are facing across the world, the root of the problem and the funding for these problems come from the West and our societies. So that's going to remain one of our targets and key part of the strategy. I think we are starting to see a shift in the discourse, in France, at least. And when we talk to the politicians, we also see that shift, that shift in the discourse of the conservation NGOs, but it's still as harmful. So instead of saying that these places are wild and empty and that the local artists are destroying it or encroaching, well, they still say it, but they also say that what we were saying before about the poverty issue and that [00:42:00] they will generate new projects and new activities and development basically.So, I think that they are starting to acknowledge the presence of these people. They couldn't be further from recognizing their land rights because, like you said, otherwise it means their own disappearance, and they're not built for that. Linda: Yeah, so it's a difficult, it's a difficult thing. I mean, I think we try to talk to people that are more inclined to understand the importance of indigenous people's rights so that we can have a base of people that support our campaigning, which is very important for us.And then we select our targets and try to engage the people that support us in convincing these targets to change projects or change their minds. And sometimes, you know, that can just be it a tweet that texts someone who we know makes decisions about certain [00:43:00] projects, try to raise awareness that there is concern about this project, that some people disagree, that this doesn't comply with human rights, that this doesn't comply with, agreements or treaties they're supporting for indigenous people's rights.And sometimes it's a more complex lobbying strategy. So there are different things we try to do and sometimes, like we saw with the example of the French government, sometimes it works because there's timing, there's different things coming together. But obviously, even though we have a lot of strategies, it's always difficult to know what will work in the end.So we try different things and try to engage with people that will help us spread the word about the need to decolonize conservation and do it differently and acknowledge land rights. And sometimes it's little things that really change a lot. Sometimes we work on something for a long time and it wasn't the right strategy and we need to change.[00:44:00] Chris: Well, speaking of how might our listeners find out more about Survival International and the decolonize conservation campaigns and especially around the work that you two are doing. Martin: Well, I strongly encourage people to read more of our campaigns on the website, on social media, also to subscribe to our newsletter, because that's where we mostly share our urgent actions.So which are one of our tools to put pressure on the targets. So, mass emails basically sent by our supporters to the targets about specific projects. And we also publish some video, direct video testimonies in our tribal voice projects, as we call it.So if they want to listen to, to the victims explaining the problems they are facing, but also the way of life that they have lost or sometimes more inspiring things about the resistance and and the fight. I think it's also very interesting to hear directly from the people affected.But yeah, I strongly encourage people to join the movement by [00:45:00] any means possible. And sometimes as Linda said, just small actions like a tweet or sending an email through these campaigns can be can really make an impact and and it does help ensure that the advocacy and the lobbying is effective.Linda: Yeah, and I think it's also a nice way to picture that you're showing solidarity with, for example, the Batwa, who often perceive the Western donors as being the cause of their problem. And I think for them, it's nice to see that there are also people in the countries that, where the problems originate that are standing up for their rights and supporting them.And I think it's probably the least we can do also, because we're so obsessed with African nature that I think it would be a very good step for us to think about the people that live in these places.Chris: Yeah, absolutely. And maybe not immediately or superficially in part because of the inundations and the dilemmas in our times, but that kind of [00:46:00] solidarity can begin to break down as well, the largely like unconscious nationalist tendencies we have when we think of other people in other countries, we always associate those people with their governments, right?Which is just like, absolutely ridiculous when anyone thinks of themselves in relation to their own government, right? But these are two faces, two voices of the resistance that are working on behalf of many others.And so I just wanted to reiterate that we're here today just to have the chance to be able to speak about a little bit about this this small victory that all willing will lead to many more to much bigger ones in regards to the Decolonize Conservation campaign of Survival International.It takes work and I'm grateful to be able to speak with you both today and to have you share some of your work and your dedication with our listeners and I will make sure that all of those links that you mentioned, Martin, will be on the End of Tourism website and available for our [00:47:00] listeners to sign up to the newsletter and follow on social media and of course participate if they so wish.Thank you both. Linda: Thanks. Martin: Thank you.​ Get full access to ⌘ Chris Christou ⌘ at chrischristou.substack.com/subscribe

In today's episode of Welcome to Cloudlandia, Dan and I discuss the paradox of achieving more through minimal effort. Exploring concepts like the 'Crucial ABC Questions' and the 80/20 rule, we uncover how sometimes the best approach is to simply stand still—how inaction itself can be a powerful strategy. We share insights into the transformative nature of strategic scheduling and how it can liberate our lives from daily logistical burdens. By entrusting details to others and focusing only on meaningful tasks, forward-thinking time management elevates our experience and enables richer collaborations. Touching on varied successes, we reflect on the diverse challenges public figures face and the support networks shaping their approaches. SHOW HIGHLIGHTS We explore the concept of achieving more by doing less, focusing on the 'Crucial ABC Questions' to isolate growth problems and find their least-effort solutions. Dan and I discuss how inaction can sometimes be the most effective action, particularly when it leads to strategic delegation and efficiency. We delve into the 80/20 principle, highlighting how focusing on the 20% of efforts that yield 80% of the results can enhance productivity. Strategic scheduling is presented as a tool for life liberation, allowing individuals to indulge in what truly matters by delegating logistics to others. We share personal stories and insights on how public figures manage their time and the impact of their support systems on personal and professional growth. I share my approach to problem-solving by considering whether inaction could solve the problem or what is the least effort required to achieve the goal. We highlight the significance of having others manage your structured calendar to allow for freedom of choice and richer life experiences. Reflecting on success and fame, we examine how various degrees of support systems and self-reliance influence celebrities' lives and careers. Strategies for entrepreneurs on managing time and maximizing productivity include asking key questions to reduce time spent on issues and preparing for future growth. We discuss the importance of personal routines and structure in providing a sense of security and time management, and the philosophy of avoiding unnecessary risks. Links: WelcomeToCloudlandia.com StrategicCoach.com DeanJackson.com ListingAgentLifestyle.com TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dean: Mr Sullivan, Dan: Mr Jackson. Dean: There we are Back again. Dan: I have a question for you. Dean: Okay. Dan: Are there any problems you're solving today by doing nothing? Dean: Yeah, I love it. It's like a paradox. You know, I had a great time at our workshop this week going through that, the exercise. I've been thinking a lot about it, actually, like I really have over the last several days. I've been writing a lot of things and so I could share some of the things, but yeah, I'd like to hear one. Okay, so let's preface it. I love, by the way, how our podcast is really just one continuous conversation that we jump right into everywhere. Dan: Last one, so for anybody listening. Dean: Let me try and take my shot at explaining your. What do you call the tool? What do you call the thinking tool? Dan: The crucial ABC questions. Dean: The crucial ABC questions. So my understanding of it, having you explain it to me and having gone through the exercise, is that there are some number of goals or obstacles or things that you want to do. Dan: And I call them growth, I call them growth problems. Growth, In other words you have plans for growing something in your business life? For your personal life. But there is a problem. And I like the way, if you solve the problem, then the growth happens. Dean: Yeah, I like the way of thinking about a problem not as an emotional negative thing but as a math proposition. You know something that there is a solution, and that's really what we're looking for here. The problem, finding the problem is really the biggest, the biggest path to getting the solution. Dan: Yeah, you know you mentioned a math problem. That's like multiplication five times X equals 20. Right, okay. If you figure out what X is, then you have the. If you figure out what's relationship is between five and 20, then you've got a solution to the problem and you grow. Dean: I like that. So I think that the preface of identifying the problem you got to have a problem, so identifying the problem and isolating it to one particular thing can be a multi variable problem, you know. But one of the one of the variables of the problem is then to ask yourself is there any way I could accomplish this? By doing nothing, yeah? I think, that's really a great thing. Is there any way I could accomplish this by doing nothing? Dan: And. Dean: I think that alone, you know, is a really good way of doing, of thinking, because it lets you think about, you know, just as a solution. Is there a way to do this with doing nothing? Then, once you acknowledge that in 99 times out of 100, the answer is going to be no, yeah, that you then move on to be, which is what's the least that I could do to accomplish this or to solve this. Yeah, really, I'm a big fan of the. I'm a big fan of, you know, everything fits into the stand. The 80% approach is a great way of thinking about this. Could I get most of what I'm looking for with 80% of this. And you know the corollary to that 80, 20 and what's the 20? 20% of this to get 80% of the result. I think that's a really good. I think thinking paths that opens up for you and then see the magic is is there a? Who could do my minimum? I think that is the ultimate. That's the. You know we identified it as the. That's the way to. That's the way to pray while you're smoking versus smoking while you're praying. Dan: Yeah, yeah. Dean: I'll tell that again because I you told it on our last podcast but I've been thinking of all sorts of different applications of the smoking and praying yeah, the way I heard it was gentlemen goes to see the priest and asks him you know, is it, can I smoke? Well, I'm praying, and the pastor or the priest says well, you know, prayer is supposed to be a reverential thing and you should come with reverence. And so, no, I would say you shouldn't smoke while you're, while you're praying and anyway, and it came back several weeks later and within conversation, was asked go father, when should I pray? And the father says well, the Bible says you should pray without ceasing, should be in constant prayer and communion. And he says, so, should I pray while I'm gardening? Because, yes, being in nature and being with being present, you should definitely pray. Should I pray while I'm walking? Well, yes, you should pray while you're walking. Can I pray while I'm smoking? It's so funny simple syntax change that gets you to the outcome completely different than when you presented. Dan: It's a totally contextual yeah it's a totally contextual change, and so, going back to the three questions, so the first one is the way I can solve this, by doing nothing. If there's something you have to do, then what's the least you have to do. And if there's a least that you have to do. Is there someone who can do your least for you, with the result that you're solving the problem by doing nothing? Yeah but it's an interesting thing. Well, what's changed in your mind? I mean, when you put the three questions together, because this really starts with a conversation that created the entire podcast series that we've been doing for quite a long time? We've done quite a number of years We've done I think this is. The total is about 215. So this is episode 215 of our never-ending conversations, but it originally came back from my appealing. I just dropped a line when we were at a restaurant, los Select in Toronto and I said you know, I've been thinking about procrastination, and procrastination is an avoidance of something that really you're exhibiting. You're actually exhibiting wisdom because you know from your entire history of what works and doesn't seem to be working. The goal you have here, when you say this needs to be done, and you say, well, how am I going to do that? Well, the goal is an appropriate thing, it's exciting, it motivates you know it motivates some kind of action. It's just that you're not the one who's supposed to actually be doing the thing that you want. So it relates directly back to procrastination. Dean: I think, I think that it's in the same family, same root, yeah. Dan: It's a sense of family resemblance Exactly. Dean: Well, so I'll tell you the evolution of my thinking around. It is, you know, lillian is coming by today, lillian my assistant, and so I mentioned to you that one of the ways that I've been kind of applying this thinking is in my eating, in my meals. And you know I went to the process of with Jay Virgin, you know, we kind of outlined some great meal choices, 10 kind of power meals for me that are available here in Winterhaven through Grubhub and Uber Eats to be delivered. And I discovered the pre-arranged delivery you can arrange, you know, up to four days ahead that they will deliver at certain times. And so I've taken that was cut to the point of if I take that, if I want to eat great meals, is there any way I could do nothing about this? Well, there's not really any way because you have to arrange and eat the meals right. So what's the least that I could do and that led me to the pre-arranged things in combination of those meals, and factor my factor 75, that I've got some meals that arrive at my house once a week and they're very easy. They just, you know, require a couple of minutes to eat up, but they're perfectly portioned, already done, and delicious and nutritious and ready to go. And so my next level, thinking of this now from spurred from our conversation this week at in our FreeZone workshop, was to think okay, can I, is there a way I could have my portion of this done by someone? And so Lillian and I are going to experiment this week with her pre-arranging the meals to be to arrive at 12 o'clock and six o'clock, so mainly the 12 o'clock one that I that needs to arrive, because typically I use, I do, the factor meal for dinner. But that's going to be the experiment this week is here's the 10 meals. Dan: I don't really care. Dean: I don't really care which one it is, but let's rotate through them and at 12 o'clock something delicious will arrive at my doorstep without me having to do anything but eat the meal and I think that's, I think that's going to be my workaround for not having to, you know, really not having to do anything but eat. Dan: So does the? You have the 12 o'clock meal and the six o'clock meal. Are they different every day? Well, you got a map. If you just are talking about different combinations of two, and you basically have 20 things to work with, the combinations are in the thousands. Dean: Yes, that's exactly right. I think that's true. And it doesn't really it doesn't. There's no duds. You know I order, like the. I order six meals from Factor. So there's six days of the. You know six of those meal options I order from Factor and there's usually 30 plus meals to choose from. So I do have some favorite ones that and sometimes they're different and each week there are 30, but there's probably they probably rotate in you know several different ones Like yeah, so I'll see which ones I really which ones I like, and I may even be able to with a little bit of coaching. Thank you for reminding me of that. Then I'm going to look at that and see there's only so many variations. I'll just tell Lillian which factor ones I don't like. Dan: Yeah, but it's enormous the number of combinations because you're and there's actually, if you go on the internet, there's things that'll give you the different combinations. Like it'll give the different numbers you know, and it's a lot, it's really. It's really. I'm not sure it's over a thousand, but it's certainly in the hundreds. You know which. Dean: I'm very excited about the. So I'm very excited about that possibility, you know, because that's going to free up and I think there's something you know it's a great analog for everything. The next thing I've been doing is taking that and applying it to my content creation. Dan: Yeah. Dean: And I was just this morning going through the process of, you know, really getting to the point of what my, what is my core thing that I really like to do. So I'll say I'll talk a little bit more about that, but let's explore what you were saying. Dan: Yeah, let's go you know the interesting thing about bringing Lillian into the, you know, into the process we have a caterer who caters the meals for our workshops. So then, they could say 18 or 19 years. You know, and yeah, and my rule is any meal for the catering can be you can. You know, you can make the meals for the clients anything you want to think, but there has to be chicken, turkey chili, chicken chili. Right, right Then there has to be some kind of coleslaw and there should be some parmesan cheese, right? So my variation from day to day is which do I put in the bowl? First the parmesan cheese, the chili or the coleslaw, regardless of what else is on the food line? But then he makes our meals for Babzame at home, and this is lunches and dinners the same setup that you have, and it's really interesting because there's about it probably rotates. The salads have a variation, maybe three or four different kinds of salads, like. What's really interesting is the entrees, and they could vary. Let's say, there's 12 variations, 12 variations, and I never know what's coming for today, tomorrow or the next day. So something familiar, something we like, something we've had before, and then every once in a while he throws in a new one, right? So my sense, with Lillian doing the ordering it adds a little bit of surprise. Yeah, a little surprise, because you're saying, yeah, I wonder what's going to show up today. Yeah, you know, and it won't be the same as yesterday and it won't be the same as tomorrow. Right, and so I think it adds a little variety to certainty. Dean: What it removes is discretion. It removes variation and room for you know if it's all within this band. You get variety, but it's all from an approved playlist. Dan: You know, yeah, On a completely different, on a completely different, a completely different dimension. The way my year works. I don't like scheduling. Dean: Right. Dan: Okay, I don't like being responsible for scheduling. I don't want to be responsible for other people scheduling, so I work, and I've worked with a series of managers who do the various activities and my, you know really great EA Echamiller. Dean: Okay. Dan: And so, if you look at my entire year, I have 210 work days. Okay, so let's just talk about the work days 200. I have 100 and I have let me just think this 100, 250. 250, 250, 250. And 210 work days, which include both focus days and buffer days. Yeah, and 155 free days 155 free days, which adds up to 365. This year I've got a sort of an anxious decision to make because there's one extra day. I'm feeling the I'm feeling the pressure. I'm feeling the pressure that extra day in February. I'm oh geez. You know what will I do with it. You know it's eating me. It's eating me, dean. Dean: Well, you're going to be, is that? Are you going to be in Palm Beach then? Dan: Geez, I don't know. You know because I'm told where to show up. What is? The date of Palm Beach. You know, you know you're defeating me. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Dean: Oh yeah, but I will be told when to go. You will be in Palm Beach, dan, of course. So, no for the summit. That's what I mean. I mean I will be in Palm Beach for that extra day. Well, 29th is when the extra day is I mean the extra. Dan: There's an extra day in February but the truth is 366 days in the year. Dean: So you know, I understand. That's the symmetry, the elegance of it being that February. Dan: Well, that's taken care of them. Dean: We can have a super happy fun day. Dan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a day when I'm responsible for nothing. Dean: I think we should see if we can work to do that together that day. That would be a very nice day. Dan: Yeah Well see, just by expressing the problem life, I've solved it. Dean: Yeah. I think, that's probably a great idea. Dan: Is there any who can do my least effort here? You did it for me. So thank you very much, yeah, anyway, but the whole point is, my whole year looks like this it's all scheduled by other people, and so I have a right of refusal on this, and I have a right of free arrangement. My whole schedule from January 1st to the end of December is scheduled, and then there's free spaces. Every focus day has some free space in it. Every buffer day has free space in it. And then as far as the free days go, it doesn't specify too much of the activities, except things that have to be scheduled ahead of time things that have to be chosen ahead of time, like dinner engagements, but that's all done. I mean that's all done. So what would happen in Toronto? I'd be in the cottage. I wouldn't be in Chicago, because Chicago is strictly a work trip and everything We'll be down in Palm Beach. It won't be just for the conference. We'll have a day before and a day after, and going to Phoenix next week, I'm going to Argentina the next week and everything but everything that needs to be scheduled ahead of time is scheduled by someone else, arranged by someone else, so it allows me just to show up, but all these scheduled things are what I've said, that I want to do, or together, babs and I want to do. And then somebody else works out the scheduling and the arrangements and everything that's needed, putting transportation together, and it just allows me to move from day to day without the pressure of indecision. Have I scheduled that? And I can't believe the number of people who are incredibly successful who are still scheduling their own things. I just can't believe. Why are you doing this? Why are you doing this at this point? And they say, well, I don't like someone else telling me what to do. Dean: And. Dan: I says they're not telling you what to do. They're saying this is what you wanted to do and we made the arrangement for you. Dean: Yeah, exactly Great. I mean that's really. I'm laughing, dan, but for years that's been me. I mean I've been resistant to scheduling my take on. I mean it was right in my declaration of independence, kind of thing my freedom charter is my number one way of defining success has been I wake up every day and say what would I like to do today. I realize now that I've missed out on a lot, because it could be so much better if I were to just change one word is I wake up every day and say what would I like to do tomorrow. The future. Dan: I mean, that's really, that's the better, that's the real freedom. Yeah, you just changed smoking and praying. Dean: Yes, that's exactly what. I did, dan is because you're limited by what you can arrange. When your choice is today, when you're waking up and saying what would I like to do today, you're limited by what's available for the day, whereas if I say what would I like to do tomorrow, and tomorrow being an operative word for not today but in the future, what could I arrange today? That's really you know what it's the difference, dan. It's the difference between having conversation like this six weeks before February 29 and coming to the conclusion that, hey, it's a possibility that we can have a super happy, fun day and maybe we can make that happen for us. But if I were to wait until February 29 and wake up and say, what would I like to do? That I'd like to spend the day with Dan, I were to call you on any one of those days and say, hey, what are you doing today? The odds of us being able to spend that day together are slim to none. Dan: Yeah. Yeah, you mentioned your declaration of independence. But I said, if you're severely constrained by the lateness of your, you know, identifying something and getting ready for it, it's really not a great life. It certainly doesn't sound like liberty and it doesn't sound to me like you can pursue happiness. Dean: That's the truth. Yeah, it's really. I mean. Dan: Yeah, it's an interesting thing and, as you know from previous conversations and that I was bound in my late teenagers that I was going to go into theater, okay, and I'll say I dabbled with it for about five years. You know I actually was involved in the theater at, you know, an amateur level. I was involved with it but you know, I was in maybe 10 productions and one role or another. And the big thing that you begin to realize by the entertainment world is that people become stars. And I'm going to say two factors are here. They become stars because they are increasingly freed up from doing anything except entertain you know they're completely afraid of. And I'll say the other factor the reason they want to be a star is because they don't have to do anything except entertain. So there's both an effect and a cause there, but they're exactly the same. They're motivated not to have to do that. And I was reading once about, you know, moving in baseball from the minor leagues to the major leagues the top minor league is a huge jump to the major leagues and I consider sports a form of entertainment, so I'm relating it back to the same conversation. Okay, and the. I remember the shortstop, you know, and there was a year when about 12, 12 shorts in the major leagues came from the same town in the Dominican Republic and it's apparently short. It's the world center of major league shortstops. Dean: Okay, world head club, uh-huh. Dan: And you know, through a translator, because he doesn't speak English through a you know an interviewer asked him what do you notice, the biggest difference, biggest difference of being in the major leagues? And he said I don't have to wash my own laundry. He said I don't have to carry my own bags. Dean: Yes, I love that you know it was something, something a very similar conversation with someone this week who was I talking to about this I think I was talking more, I was having a conversation with Taki about that this week that thinking about, you know, pro sports like thinking about the athletes and the you know, thinking about the structure of the NFL, for instance, if I were an NFL quarterback, that there's very little that an NFL quarterback has to do other than bring themselves to be to perform on the day, right, that there's all of the everything else. Talk about, you know not having to do the carry your own bag or wash your laundry or anything like that. There's a very, very structured way of the of an NFL week. It's broken up into, you know, 16 weeks kind of thing, right as the main thing, and each week starts with a very organized structure and flow to the week where there are free days and focus days and buffer days. Of course Sunday is the big focus day that everybody you're ready for that. But you know Monday they I saw a you know week in the life of a NFL player and so Monday they watch film and get treatment for you know, their injuries or whatever you know body recovery kind of things. Tuesday is an off day, a free day. Wednesday is right back to practice, and Wednesday, thursday, friday, same Saturday is a travel day if they're going to you know a new city or whatever. And then Sunday is game day and everything is all 100% organized around them. There's lots of exoskeleton and lots of scaffolding to keep that. And a lot of hoos, a lot of hoos and mentioning Tataki, like the difference between that and professional tennis or golf even. You know there's some structure around the tournaments, but the individuals you know you're responsible for everything. You know it's all self directed and it's completely meritocracy. There's no signing a 10 year max contract in tennis. You have to win every week in order to win. You know, and I thought that's really. You know, it's really. I could probably do some therapy about my life choices, of why you know choosing tennis and golf as sports as opposed to continuing with team sports. You know. Dan: Yeah, I think the big thing I had a phrase because I actually went to see Frank Sinatra back in, you know back in the 70s. Dean: And. Dan: I came up with this line. One of the things you notice about Frank Sinatra right off the bat is Frank Sinatra does not move pianos. Right, Exactly oh that's so funny, you know he's got a whole team that comes in the day before sets up everything you know. I mean there's with a performance like Frank Sinatra there's literally dozens of people who are specialized, people that handle his whole trip, his whole lodging you know, and everything Great stars, taylor Swift to bring it up to the present moment. Dean: I mean she's probably got an army. Dan: She's probably got an army of people. You know, and uh 55 trucks to you know to bring the entire you know the entire physical set, the entire physical set, including the technology, and yes, and, and everything else, yeah, and. But you can see the difference to me. I remember Keith Richard Richard's of the. Is it Richard or Richard, keith? Dean: Richards. Dan: Yeah, richard. Keith Richards made a documentary film on Chuck Berry who so many of the 60s you have to remember that the stones started in the 1960s and he made a documentary film on Chuck Berry and it was a bit of. Keith Richards described it. He says it was a bit of total, almost admiration and worship for the musical skills of Chuck Berry but at the same time almost a sense of disappointment and kind of resentment towards Chuck Berry because he never built any kind of structure around him. Okay, thank you. And so he did this documentary for him that sort of traced him from his very poor, poor beginnings in the St Louis area and you know, and then. But he never. He went big simply because of his talent and the you know, the media for spreading his talent through the airwaves. And he became famous, but he never really took advantage of it. He really took it. You know he was playing that county fairs and everything throughout his career. Okay, but he inspired maybe hundreds or thousands of people who became successful in music just because of the sheer wizardry of his. You know his songs, his voice, you know his ability to play a guitar and everything else. So they did it and there was Bruce Springsteen was saying that he was like an 18 year old or 19 year old and was a, you know, got a really lucky gig at a fair in Pennsylvania county fair or something like that and as backup to Chuck Berry and he was just amazed. So they all got there about five, six hours. All the musicians got there five or six hours. And you know, four, five, four hours, chuck Berry's not there. Three hours Chuck Berry's not there. One hour Chuck Berry's not there. 20 minutes before the presentation, chuck Berry comes in, ignores the musicians, goes in to see the manager and comes out with a bag that's got his money in it in cash and then he just starts tuning those instruments. And finally Bruce Springsteen goes up to Chuck Berry and says Mr Berry. He says yes, boy. He says what are we going to play? He says what do we going to play, boy? We're going to play Chuck Berry music. That was his prep. Dean: That was his prep yeah. Dan: The name of that movie. Dean: I need to watch that because. Dan: No, just plug in. Keith Richards, yes, Just his you know documentary on Chuck Berry. He'll come up with it. But there's a great scene near the end of the movie where they go back to a theater in St Louis where, when he was growing up, chuck Berry had to sit in the balcony because he was black. It was, you know, wasn't segregated, that they couldn't go to the theater, but they had to sit in a certain section where they didn't have drinking fountains and didn't really have bathrooms, you know. And then they put on an actual performance in that theater as part of the documentary and it just shows the complete circle of him, starting when he couldn't be in the main part of the auditorium, certainly couldn't be on stage, and then being the star, and, but one of the things, they went and visited his home, which he had and this had, you know, his entire life. I think it may have been his parents home, but he had the home and it was pristine. You know it was beautifully kept up, not a, not a, you know, a rundown part of town, but not in a rich part of town either. It was you know sort of a modest house and everything you know, everything was kept up. It was you know, it was nothing rundown about it. And he was just taken through the house and they went to a door and he opened the door and their shelf on both sides were paint cans and paint brushes. And Keith Richards said what's this? He says well, you know, sometimes I didn't have gigs all the time, so I was a house painter. He says I paint houses. Wow, he says yeah, but yeah, but you know, that's in the past. That's in the past. He says why do you still keep? You know the brushes were fresh, the cans were cans. He says why are you keeping that round and check where? He says well, you never know. Dean: Oh, you never know. Wow, I would have to watch this. That sounds fascinating. Dan: Yeah. Dean: I love things like that, so that's really I think that'll be a good find. Good Now, I know what I'm in. Dan: Yeah, it's just a really, but he didn't believe in who's you know he just didn't believe in who's you know? Is there a way I can solve this problem with doing nothing. No, well, yeah, is there a? Way of solving the problem of too much fame and success without doing. Without doing anything? Dean: Yes, yeah, right, right, right. I mean wow, I mean yeah, I'm fascinated that I haven't heard about this before. So I almost like I just love that. Dan: Yeah, it's a long time ago. I mean, it's a long time ago. Dean: Yeah. Dan: Maybe something I saw 25 years ago. Dean: I remember it very distinctly. Dan: I remember it very distinctly yeah. Dean: So what has your insight been? In now, you know taking this out to the check writers as we say. What has been your experience? The reception of the ABC, thinking. Dan: Well, I think it's a very simple, what could very much be a daily tool, because things are always coming up which are things to be solved you? Know, and I mean so. For example, if you handle three of them today, the amount of time you thought you're going to have to spend on them has been severely reduced by simply asking the three questions Is there any way I can solve this by doing nothing. What's the least I have to do, and who could do my least? Well probably you were thinking that might take five or six hours and it probably takes 30 minutes. Okay, right. You know, it sort of takes 30 minutes, and I find usually the thing that the entrepreneur has to do is they have to communicate clear results for the right person, in other words, clear results to be achieved by the right person, with a clear understanding of why the projects were important and what are the measurable success factors of the project, which we call an impact filter. Dean: I was just going to say. If only there was an easy tool to convey that. Dan: There is one. It's called the impact filter, but if you handle that, then you've watched yourself probably four or five hours today which gives you time now to prepare for tomorrow. Okay. So you want to get yourself that you're not looking at today's growth problems. You're looking at tomorrow's growth problems, yes, okay. And you know, and what I've noticed with me is then that day I can put the. You know, this is a newly created tool, but before what I do is I can say okay, all clear and communicated about tomorrow, then I can move it another day in the future. And I keep buying myself days in the future by using this tool. I mean this has just occurred to me, you know, since I have one, as I created the tool for myself. And if it worked for myself, then there's a chance it'll work for the entrepreneurs. But then I have a full quarter now behind me of it working with the entrepreneurs and then I just move it more and more into the future. But I think it's you know, it'll already be in the client website for their tool inventory so that they'll be able to do it. But if you just had a habit of always the day before you're solving tomorrow's problems. I like that, that's when that really works over 25 years. Dean: Yeah, that's the consistency thing. Right is spending some time. What would I like to do tomorrow, and tomorrow being the operative for in the future? Yeah, I've been. I've been constantly evolving and experimenting on myself with different ways of organizing things like that, and you know, the gotten down to the plank, the pixel, the minimum unit of time being the 10 minute, the 10 minute unit where we have 110 minute units in a day, basically to up, deploy. And I've been following those hundreds all the way up right like so. 100 minutes is basically to 50 minute focus finders, which is the thing I have the most, that's, the most immediate control over right what am I doing in the next minutes about about this. Dan: Yeah. Dean: And then the 100, 100 hours is basically 8am Monday morning till noon on Friday, is basically 100 hours of time linearly. And that, you know, if I take that NFL type of structure of week, if you're looking at them that way, that's a big, that's a nice Focus. You know that that feels like that. And then a hundred days is Essentially a quarter, you know, looking at the things, with some little buffer in between them, you know, like giving room for some free days and things Aside, but, and a hundred weeks is really you can do almost anything in a hundred weeks, yeah. Dan: And so, yeah, I think that's the thing is I. I don't use my Apple watch for a lot of things, but the one thing I do is the timer and you know they have a timer app and my my favorite is 30 minutes you know, 30 minutes and and in other words, something may happen that requires a couple hours. I simply say what's going to get done over the next 30 minutes. Yeah, okay, and the thing that I find is true that if I didn't have that 30 minutes, when I look at what did get done over 30 minutes because I had the 30 minute framework, I Always get much more done in the 30 minutes, 30 minutes. Then I thought or I get 30 minutes worth of work done in 20 minutes. But if I didn't have the framework and it would always take me much, much more time, right because, I would take score, a score of commercial breaks. Dean: I know, and that's exactly true, right, like I do exactly the same thing. I've been thinking about what I really do, like my thing is running things through. I've been calling it the Deenatron 3000 that I've got the brain. There that I can operate right and yeah, if I treat it like a wood chipper, that I've got to feed stuff into it. They have it working. But I've got a. But the thing is to pile up. You know, like when I look at the things is to have the hopper loaded up with sequential. What is the? What are the next things that I'm going to do on that Stuff? You know, the 10 hours thing, what are the next 10 hours about? Because I noticed that the Deenatron 3000 doesn't really care what it's working on. It is very open to Suggestion, right, and that's why I would say that jumps yeah. Dan: I would just say that's true about the human brain and yeah. Dean: Generally as long as the brain really doesn't get. Dan: The brain wants to work on something and it does really care what it is. Yeah, it could be good or it could be bad. It does not care. It makes no moral distinctions. It makes you know. You know it Work on bad things just as with as much enthusiasm as working on good things. Dean: Yeah, it'll work on one thing the same way. It'll work on everything you know and if you're putting on the, you know, putting on some direction of it, feeding in, setting up a context for what it is that's Happening this hour, yeah, really, or this 30 minutes, that's, yeah. I think it's just adding, you know, a contextual Management layer in a way. Dan: Yeah, you know, it's like having not and then checking out if you're actually a manager. Dean: Yeah, right exactly. Dan: Yeah. Dean: I'm not a manager. I'm not either. Dan: I'm not a man manager, and you're not either you know I have to delegate Management, I mean. And the other thing is memory you know I delegate memory and I have. I always have someone with me. I remember there was a famous platform speaker, I think in the 90s, okay, and we were at Genius. We remain platform at genius. I'm pretty sure it was genius. It couldn't been the 90s, because genius didn't exist, it was some other. No, I think it was a big you know industry Conference and I was and I was on. I had been on before lunch and this guy joined me at lunch and and he was talking. You know, we should really work together and and so I was interested, you know, interested in the conversation, anything you know. Usually when somebody says we should work Together, usually means that he'd like me to work for him, you know. In any way, and so I just given my talk and I had my team of I didn't have team members, but there were clients Strategic coach clients at lunch with me and he was talking away and we were chatting everything and then all at once he looks at his watch and he says, oh my god, I'm on in three minutes I'm. And he says, here, I just will hand us a bill. He don't have to rake on a rush dog. And this guy was more famous than I was, I mean, as a platform speaker. He was times more famous than I was, but I had spoken in the morning at like 11 o'clock. I had had an hour and Someone came and got me at 9 o'clock and took me backstage and set there, you know. And we sat there and and I had three team members. I never traveled without three team members. Yeah, and the team members take care of arrangements and this person does that, you know, but I would never ever be. You know, just arriving. You know, just arriving, checkberry style. I would never just be arriving, I would already be there, I would already matter of fact, what I'd like to do with speeches is go out and talk to the members of the audience, because I Pick up. Q I pick up. Dean: Q's. Dan: You know, it's like Jay Leno who, if you got there. He was already there two hours ahead of time and he was chatting with you know, and he was just picking up material. Do you know what? Dean: Sorry but go ahead. I was gonna say, just on a similar thing, tony Robbins, who we were playing golf this is maybe ten years ago now, almost playing golf one day we're talking about I know I'm being successful when my declaration of it, we're talking about those things that you know, the number one thing, when I, you know, wake up every day and say what would I like to do the day, and Tony, when we were talking about it, he looked at me and he said dude, I don't have one of those days till March, and this was January, right, and his whole thing was a very different. He had that. He definitely had a what would I like to do tomorrow Approach to his life, because even in playing golf we were gonna. We were filming some video things for a program he was doing. So he arrived at my country club you know, two SUVs deep to six people and that you know assistants with assistants and the camera guys in the sound guy in the body, body guards. Yeah, the whole thing, and that is true, like I played golf with him in in In Fort Lauderdale he was done in Palm Beach, but I played golf with him and literally they arranged the, they arranged the tee time ahead of and behind and have a, you know, to Security ahead and behind that are following the, just following, you know, a hundred yards behind us at all times. Very funny, right by not just keeping these buffers around around whatever, a very different approach yeah it's whatever system he's required. Dan: But you know, I don't know. My feeling is timing and scheduling is idiotic and cratic. It's completely All in individual how an individual, what story they tell about their past and what story they're telling about their future. And that determines what the structure of today looks like that. So it's a structure and my, my sense is I don't, I never like being rushed. Dean: Okay, I always want to be. Dan: I always want to be prepared. Yeah and I don't like sudden surprises. Dean: Yeah. Dan: I really don't like sudden surprises and therefore, in order to Get that Structure around me, I give this, that same right, to all the people who work with me. They don't have to rush. There'll be lots of preparation before him. Then there'll be no surprises. It's very smooth, it's very calm. Everybody gets just to, gets to focus and you know, focus on what they're doing and then this just floats through time. This little system, you know, flows through time. Now, yeah, I deliberately played such a low key person throughout my career that I don't need security. Yeah yeah, yeah, and my, my sense of the sense of success Be as successful and well known as you can without requiring a security person. Dean: Right, yes, yeah. Warren versus Mark Zuckerberg. Dan: Well, Warren Buffett, you know he flies by himself. He flies by himself. You know he's just got his briefcase because he comes in and goes out the same day. And you know he's got a private jet and he gets picked up my limousine company is actually his limousine company when he comes into Toronto and he wants to sit in the front seat with the driver and he just gets to the driver all day and when he arrives at a place or someone's standing, you know they're standing on the curb, you know, yeah, on the sidewalk, and they take him in and he comes out, and you know pretty. You know, pretty much on time, and then he goes home. You know, you know he has his lunch with whoever and then goes home. Mark Zuckerberg has 24-hour security and the number of people involved. For him, his family and his chief officers is like 70. He's got like 70. He's got secret escape rooms, he's got tunnels and you know, and you know, I think, what your structure around you reflects, whether you think it's a safe world or a dangerous world. I think that's great. I think it's a safe world as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I know it's dangerous for others, but I don't feel, I don't feel, or I stay away from places that are dangerous. Right yeah, it's like somebody gets Arrested in Russia and then you know America's got this thing is. You know that the country will come to your rescue one way or another. And I said why are you in Russia? What? Why are you even visiting there? Dean: I went right. Dan: Yeah or China. I wouldn't go to China, you know, I would even go there you know it's like the joke about that. Dean: You know what my yeah, I heard about these guys that were, you know, died in a base jumping Accident. Right, and I said that's this one thing. I know with certainty that my tombstone will never say Died in a terrible base jumping accident. Dan: Yeah, what are those flying suits that people right? Dean: exactly yes, is that base jump? That's what I was talking about and I think it is called. You know, I don't know what it is, but the human flying suits, but that's what they do. They jump off they jump off a cliff and, basically, just like those, they float, they've got a parachute. They've got a parachute yeah. Dan: Yeah, and you know, I've seen videos of the ones where it worked. Yeah, yes exactly. They don't show you. They don't show you the other ones. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, why are you doing this? Yeah? Dean: I'm never gonna die in a park accident. Dan: Yeah, but I think it's, you know, different nervous system. You know, I think every nervous system is unique, you know, yeah, yeah, who's the guy who did in Yosemite Park there was a. It won the Academy Award and he did it with no ropes, you know, he just had his hands and feet. Dean: Oh. Dan: I don't know. Dean: Yeah, well, Linda Well. Dan: Linda, now that's a whole family. Dean: Yeah right rope workers. Dan: Now, this is the guy. He's a free climber. Oh, okay, right, right, and they all capitan is just a sheer cliff from top to bottom. You know, yeah, I think it's a couple thousand feet and anyway, and it usually takes climbers where they're using, you know, they're using the things that they drive into the rock and then they put the, you know, and they usually takes them A day and a half to do it, not you know, which requires that they stay overnight. They have to sleep right and that's you know and everything else. I think he did it top to bottom in about two and a half hours yeah. I just thought wow and he had a film crew at the bottom and at the top and that they were filming the film that became the you know the free solo. Dean: Was that what that was? Dan: Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what, anyway, but he just went to top to bottom, okay, and her bottom to top and in a Insanely short period of time. But he told the film crew that they wouldn't get any money. He said I am, you're only getting half the money and you won't get the other half, that if I fall and kill myself you don't catch it on film. Wow you know, and they're kind of leaning out at the top. You know they have, you know they have wires in that that keep them safe, which requires a certain you know a certain amount of courage itself to do that the people at the top but thinking that the guy bait might fall. And yeah, everything you know and everything but different nervous system. I don't have that nervous system. Dean: Me neither, me neither. Dan: Well, we covered a lot of territory today. Dean: We really did yeah. There's a lot of nervous. Dan: There's a lot of nervous systems that couldn't do what we're doing. Dean: Where we go, exactly yeah. Dan: Yeah, well, what's the script here Script it's listening to. It's listening to what he says next. That's so funny. Well, what are you gonna say next? I don't know until he says it right, we know we're gonna start with. Dean: Welcome to Cloudlandia. Yeah yeah, anyway very enjoyable. Dan: Always next week. I'm in just arriving in Argentina, so to be the weekend after yeah, I saw that we got a email from. Dean: I love that, you know. Becca and Lillian, just keep us on Triad ever. Dan: I just see it on. Dean: I don't even have to put the Podcasts with Dan on the calendar. What we put on the calendar is no podcast with Dan. Dan: That's the yeah, there's more uncertainty to that, isn't? Dean: there, that's exactly right. Dan: Yeah well. Dean: I'm excited about the possibility of the 29th. And oh, okay that present, but I think that would be fantastic. Okay, okay, thank you, Bye, thanks Bye.

What you'll learn in this episode: How the jewelry industry has changed over the last 50 years How the Women's Jewelry Association helped women jewelry professionals get the recognition they deserved What it was like to work with Elizabeth Taylor and Hilary Clinton to design iconic jewels for them Linda's advice for young jewelry designers About Linda Orlick Linda Orlick is a longtime public relations expert in the jewelry industry as well as an accomplished business executive with experience branding high-end products, people and companies. She is co-founder of the influential Women's Jewelry Association, a volunteer organization founded in 1984 that began with 10 women in an apartment in Manhattan and blossomed to become a formidable entity and powerful voice for women in the jewelry industry worldwide. Linda served as its President for a four- year term. Additional Resources: Instagram LinkedIn Photos available on ThejewelryJourney.com Transcript: Linda Orlick entered the jewelry industry when gold was $35 an ounce and jewelry designers were unknowns who worked behind the scenes. Due in no small part to Linda's passion for the industry and her work to brand and promote emerging designers, retailers and shows, jewelry is now a respected part of the American fashion scene. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the history of the Women's Jewelry Association; why it's so hard for people to leave the jewelry industry once they enter it; and how she helped facilitate the design of the 4.25 carat canary yellow diamond ring Hilary Clinton wore to the 1993 inauguration. Read the episode transcript here. Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week.    My guest is Linda Orlick. Linda has spent her whole career in jewelry. She has been very successful as a retailer and a consultant to retailers. She's one of the cofounders of the Women's Jewelry Association, and she helped build it into a powerhouse. I'm sure many of you are members of the Women's Jewelry Association. Today, we will learn a lot more about her jewelry journey. There's a lot to say. Linda, welcome to the program.   Linda: It's so good to be here. Thank you, Sharon.   Sharon: Tell us about your jewelry journey.    Linda: Well, I hope we have a lot of time. In 1974, when gold was $35 an ounce—   Sharon: Wow!   Linda: I guess, wow. My family and a few friends spent the summer in the Catskills. At that time, there were three ladies who had a company and were selling a collection of gold jewelry to other women like a pyramid scheme. It was a combination of chains and necklaces and earrings. I said to a friend of mine, “We should do this.” So, we went ahead and invested $400 each, and we got our first collection.    We thought we would be brave enough—we lived in Riverdale in the Bronx—to take a trip into the city and go into office buildings in the garment center, introduce ourselves to the receptionist, go into the bathroom and set up wares. There you have it: we were selling our jewelry. Women used to come in and give us hundreds of dollars in deposits, and we would come back and deliver pieces to them. The two of us looked at each other and said, “I think this is fun. This is good. Better than doing it out of our home,” because we both had small children. That's how it all started. Again, gold was $35 an ounce. Can you imagine that was 48 years ago?   My next introduction was to a silver designer by the name of Minas. He was from Greece, and he had a beautiful collection of 18-carat pieces. In fact, I'm wearing two of his pieces. I fell in love with his collection. I had never sold to a retailer before. I didn't know how to go about it. I walked into Bloomingdale's one day with my little jewelry roll, and I said, “Knock, knock; I'm Linda and I'd like to introduce myself.” The buyer—her name was Susan; I can't remember her last name—said, “Do you have an appointment?” I said, “Oh, did I need one?” Before I knew it, I was showing her the collection. She fell in love with it also, and she bought a nice selection of it. Now, mind you, a ring like this was $22. Again, it was 18-karat gold and silver. Everything was very affordable, so they sold out immediately. I kept the money from the order, and then I started to work full time for Minas, and I kept the relationship with Bloomingdale's going.    Along the way, gold went from $35 an ounce to $800 an ounce. It was at the same time that Minas decided he was going to turn his business into all 18-karat gold. He felt that staying in the United States, it would be difficult for him to continue to sell his collection in all gold, so he decided to go back to his homeland in Greece and continue with his collection. By chance, I was at the Sheraton Center when the JA had their shows there, and I got a part-time position with Marsha Breslow, who was a wonderful colorist. She used to do lapis and 18-karat bead jewelry for Cartier and had her special collection for them. She used to take semi-precious beads and make the most extraordinary necklaces and earrings.    It caught the attention of Vera Wang, who was then an assistant at Vogue Magazine. Vera kept coming up to the office and working with us on different collections. Vera was working on a collection for Calvin Klein for one of his original runway shows. She asked Marsha to create a collection that would go on his runway. Excitingly enough, it also made the cover two seasons in a row of Fashion Times Magazine. For a jewelry designer to be on the cover of Fashions Times was unheard of.    Along the way, I called Women's Wear Daily, who never featured fine jewelry. I believe it was Agnes Carmack, who was then an assistant, who answered, and I said, “I've got a gorgeous collection of earrings,” and she said, “O.K., bring it over.” We went up on the rooftop. I had a friend who was a model. This wonderful photographer they had, Tony Palmieri, photographed about six different earrings on her, and they landed on the front page of Women's Wear Daily. It was the first ever.   I started to think to myself, “If Seventh Avenue can promote by name, why shouldn't the jewelry industry?” I went back to Bloomingdale's and told them about the Marsha Breslow collection. After being in Vogue Magazine and with Vera Wang putting it on Calvin Klein, people began to really take notice of the designers and names. We were in Bloomingdale's, which was a Federated Store. The parent company was associated with Associated Merchandising Corporation. I became friendly with the CEO of AMC, Lee Abraham, and he called me one day and said, “Linda, I want something different for Bloomingdale's that no other store has.” I said, “O.K., give me a few days to think about it.” I called him back and said, “Lee, I want to have the first design boutique ever in a department store, and I want it to be in Bloomingdale's, in the 59th Street store.” He said, “You got it. The buyer Marty Newman, whom everybody loves so dearly, and the DM will be visiting you in the next week.”   Sharon: The DM is what? I'm sorry.   Linda: The department manager. “It's our secret, but they are going to listen to your story about a designer boutique and it's going to happen.” Sure enough, a week later, I get a phone call from Marty Newman, who went on to be one of my dearest friends. He said, “I'm not sure what I have here, but I want you to create a collection. We can give you six feet of showcase space.” If you walk into Bloomingdale's and see the Louis Vuitton store to the right, there's always that big flower. Exactly where that beautiful flower is was the showcase that he wanted us to work with.   So, we put in a collection. We were responsible for designing the showcase and hiring our own salespeople. They gave us a sales goal. We quadrupled that. Lee and the buyer were so impressed, he said to me, “Now you can go to the rest of the Federated stores,” which included Woodward & Lothrop. I created the first designer boutique. What can I say? The rest is history. Marsha Breslow went into these stores and the word “jewelry designer” came along with it.    It was a slow process because jewelry designers were still not recognized. It was a real uphill battle. In 1981, I was invited by the Manufacturing Jewelry and Silversmiths of America, MJSA, and I eventually met the man who became my former husband, Henry Dunay. I was invited to do direct mail advertising and public relations for the first group of American jewelry designers that were invited to the Baselworld Fair. Basel didn't want any Americans to come to it. They fought and said, “Americans, what do they know about jewelry design? They design in 14-karat gold. They have no sense of design.” So, they stuck us in a little corner behind the cafeteria where nobody could see them. We did a mailing to hundreds and hundreds of retailers across the world. Little by little, when you have a designer like Henry Dunay or Jose Hess, names who were emerging designers, and they're not being sold by weight, which is what they did early on. You sold your jewelry by weight. People started to recognize it. They became a real force in Basel. They were invited back every year, and every year the collections grew more and more incredible.    The American jewelry designers outdid all the other countries as far as designing metals and working in 18-karat and precious and semiprecious stones. I went to the Basel Fair for 21 years and became very friendly with the then-head of the fair. Eventually, the Basel Fair hired me to promote the fair to American retailers to try and get more American retailers to come to Basel. That was when there were so many competitions in New York. There was the emergence of JCK, the JA show, which launched the Couture Show, the JCK Show, which launched Luxury. They converged on Las Vegas and took over the ability for retailers to come to one place and see extraordinary designs. Then, of course, you had the European retailers wanting to come, too. It gave Basel a real run for its money. I had done public relations for the JA Show for many years, and I helped create a lot of exciting highlights for the Couture Show. I had a very close relationship with Robb Report magazine.   Sharon: Which magazine?   Linda: Robb Report magazine.   Sharon: Robb Report, O.K., yes.   Linda: Robb Report is very high-end luxury jewelry. I created a Robb Report event at the Couture Show after the major entertainment, which was always sponsored by Vogue Magazine. It had over-the-top musicians performing, and it was a luxury fair the couture jewelers could go to with over-the-top desserts and interesting things. That grew to be very big and kept the tour very special until Couture and JA decided to make its move to Vegas.    When that program was over, I became the public relations and marketing person for the JCK Show. I was also watching the Luxury Show within the JCK Show. We came up with a lot of programs and conferences that would create wider visibility for the show. In fact, because of my 21 years in Basel and my relationships not just with jewelry designers, but with the watch companies, I was able to create the first watch luxury show. I introduced the concept to my colleagues at JCK and I brought my dear friend, Steven Kaiser, on board to oversee the show. The Luxury by JCK Watch Show is still in existence today and is the first and only luxury watch show in the U.S. So, that was very exciting.    The rest, as they say, is history. I watched the industry go from $35 an ounce and deciding how much I should pay for this based on a scale, to a showcase with the most beautiful designs ever created in the world. I have to give a lot of credit to my former husband, Henry Dunay, because in my opinion he was—and still is—one of the greatest jewelry designers in the industry. He set the tone for finishes on jewelry with his love for pearls, his love for precious and semiprecious stones, his ability to search out stones and create a design around it.    For instance, my dear friend who worked at the Diamond Information Center, called me one day and said, “I have a 4.25 canary yellow diamond that was found in a mine in Arkansas by a local jeweler. If Henry could create a ring for Hillary Clinton to wear at the inauguration, she will wear it.” Henry was leaving for Europe the next day, and I said, “You're not going. To design a ring for Hillary Clinton and have her wear it at the inauguration, that comes first. Please put off the jewelry trip for another few days.” Sure enough, he created the most beautiful cinnabar ring. It was from the argosy of Arkansas. You saw pieces of platinum and different textures in the 18-karat gold that depicted the topography of Arkansas, with the 4.25 diamond set inside. It was a cushion shape. It was never cut. It came out of the ground just the way you see it in the ring. It was extraordinary.    Sadly, the jeweler wanted the diamond back rather than having the whole ring donated to the Smithsonian as it should have been, so Henry had to take the ring apart. He said, “One day, I'll have a stone made that looks exactly like it and I'll reset it.” I don't think that ever happened, but people got to see it. It went on view in the Museum of Natural History. It became part of one of the exhibits at the Museum of Natural History. It was an extraordinary ring. I do have pictures of it to share with everybody.   Sharon: We'll have those on the website.   Linda: It's an exciting journey. Back in the early 80s, I made lots of good women friends in the industry. I think it was in 1982. There was a blustery, snowy night, and we were all at the JA show. It was at the Hilton in the Sheraton Center. We were invited by two representatives from New England to a meeting to tell us about the women's group they put together, New England Women in Jewelry. We thought it had a lot of merit, and my friends and colleagues and I kept going back and forth and back and forth. Do we need this organization? What do you think?    We finally decided we would call our friend, Ronny Lavin, and 10 women we were close with to talk about it. There was Nancy Pier Sindt, who was an editor with National Jeweler; a designer, Joan Benjamin; Jo Ann Paganetti, who was a professor at FIT; Marian Ruby, who was the jewelry buyer at Finley at the time. I hope I'm not leaving anybody's name out. We said, “O.K., I think we should do this. Let's become mentors. Let's create a scholarship program. Let's create a platform for women to share their ideas and grow their businesses.” We voted on the name Women's Jewelry Association.    Nothing could have prepared us for what was coming next. I sent you our original newsletter. We came on like such a force that we expanded our bylaws to include the rest of the country. The New England group became our first general chapter, and the rest is history. Most importantly, of course, there was somebody we all loved and respected, Gerry Friedman, who was the editor in chief of National Jeweler Magazine, and we were going to ask Gerry to be our first president. She was like, “Of course.”    We had several meetings where we put together a group of programs of other women to talk about what's going on in the industry, what suppliers and vendors to use, the world of design and all different topics. Gerry always had a group to her home for dinner, and one day we were talking about what's going to make us stand out. There are lots of men's groups or enough men's groups, and they had dinners. All of a sudden, it came to me: We had to create the first awards in the jewelry industry for women, by women. We all agreed we would do this. Through Gerry's connections at the Lotos Club, we created the first Awards for Excellence dinner. It was at the Lotos Club, and it was a total sellout. We had to move it to the Harmonie Club, which was a little bit larger in space, again through Gerry's connections. Again, it was a sellout. We honored Helene Fortunoff and Bess Ravella. We honored Angela Cummings for best designer, Marian Ruby for best retailer. We had Nancy Pier Sindt for best editor. The list goes on and on. It became such a sense of pride for all of us, to recognize each other for our accomplishments in the industry.    The award dinner kept growing and growing. We moved to Tavern on the Green, and again, it was a total sellout. We kept growing. For the last two years, it's been at Chelsea Piers. There are over 700 women and men that attend. The awards have literally become the ticket in the industry. It's a current event. It's a great place to network. It's a great place to catch up with your friends and your vendors in the industry, and it's a beautiful, beautiful evening.    I am proud to say that from those original 10 women in Ronny Lavin's apartment, there are now 20 chapters all over the world with, I believe, a membership of 17,000 women and men worldwide. The Women's Jewelry Association is a force to be reckoned with, and now they have programs in all different regions. They have ongoing programs. When I look back on my career, the Women's Jewelry Association stands out as one of my greatest highlights. Along the way I've gotten beautiful emails from members who said I actually changed the course of their lives by creating the Women's Jewelry Association. I take those comments very seriously and to heart, because I was always trying to do something different and trying to make room for people to grow. If somebody got laid off from a job, I was the first person they would come to. I would always help them find a position or help them with what they're going through and perhaps help them look at a different career within the industry.    When I started in the industry, there were barely any women. One of the women that stands out to me is Helene Fortunoff, because she was one of the very first women to ever have retail experience. She took all of her children to work with her every day. Five of her children worked with her every single day. Now not only are her children in the business, but Esther and Ruth have carried on their mother's incredible journey in the jewelry business. It's remarkable to see how, from the beginning to where we are now, the jewelry business has become one of the major industries in the world. Diamonds and precious and semi-precious stones, pearls, pearls, pearls—because I love pearls—are now the mainstay of what people look for when they're going shopping for birthdays, anniversaries, holidays, or just when a woman wants to buy her own jewelry.   Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.

During this episode, Janet Patterson, Research Speech-Language Pathologist at the VA Northern California Healthcare System, speaks with Dr. Linda Worrall. Linda is Emeritus Professor at the University of Queensland, a fellow of Speech Pathology Australia, and founder of the Australian Aphasia Association. They will be discussing IARC; a bit of history, the influence it has had on aphasia research and practice, and what to look forward to in 2022.   In today's episode you will:   Learn some history and exciting information about the 2022 International Aphasia Rehabilitation Conference  Find out the value of international collaboration to people with aphasia and to the aphasia research and clinical community Hear about tiny habits, change, and a challenge to ask ourselves, “If I had aphasia, I would want…”.     Janet Patterson: Welcome to this edition of Aphasia Access podcast, a series of conversations about community aphasia programs that follow the LPAA model. My name is Janet Patterson, and I am a Research Speech-Language Pathologist at the VA Northern California Healthcare System in Martinez, California. Today I am delighted to be speaking with my esteemed colleague and friend, Dr. Linda Worrall. Dr. Worrall is an individual who, to most of us associated with Aphasia Access, needs little introduction. She is Emeritus Professor in the School of Health and Rehabilitation Sciences at the University of Queensland in Australia. She is a fellow of Speech Pathology Australia, and founder of the Australian Aphasia Association. This is only a small part of the tireless work she does to serve people with aphasia, their family members and care partners, and the clinicians who interact with them on their aphasia journey.   Today, my conversation with Linda focuses on her experiences with the International Aphasia Rehabilitation Conference, or IARC. As Linda and I start this podcast, I want to give you a quick reminder that this year we are sharing episodes that highlight at least one of the gap areas in aphasia care identified in the Aphasia Access White Paper, authored by Dr. Nina Simmons-Mackie. For more information on this White Paper, check out Podversations Episode # 62 with Dr. Liz Hoover, as she describes these ten gap areas, or go to the Aphasia Access website.    Today's episode with Dr. Worrall crosses all the gap areas as we talk about the upcoming International Aphasia Rehabilitation Conference. Aphasia Access is honored to host the 2022 International Aphasia Rehabilitation Conference, which will be held in June in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. This event is based on a tradition of excellence and brings together 200 to 300 delegates, researchers and clinical specialists in speech- language pathology, linguistics, neuropsychology and rehabilitation medicine, all of whom are dedicated to aphasia rehabilitation.    Before moving on to our interview today, I want to take a moment to acknowledge our colleagues Tammy Howe, Eavan Sinden and Brent Paige, who chaired IARC 2020 in Vancouver. They collaborated to create a wonderful conference that unfortunately had to be cancelled in the middle of the pandemic. We appreciate their efforts and are glad we have been able to return to an in-person conference in 2022. I'm excited for the conference this year and in this discussion with Dr. Worrall, hope to spread that excitement to those of you who are listening.   I am honored to have Dr. Worrall as my guest today. We will be talking about IARC, a bit of history, the influence it has had on aphasia research and practice, and what to look forward to in 2022. Welcome, Linda. And thank you for joining me today.   Lina Worrall: Ah, thank you, Janet. I'm absolutely delighted to be talking about IARC.   Janet: Let's start our conversation today, Linda, with a bit of history about IARC. I know it's been around for quite a while, but I'm not sure exactly how long. How did the idea for IARC come into being, and when or where was the first meeting? Tell us about the sense of spirit and collegiality at those early meetings?   Linda: Sure. I joined the IARC conference in its second year, but I'm led to believe by Ilias Papathanasiou, who has recorded the history of this conference, that there were three people who said that we needed an international conference that focused on aphasia rehabilitation. And those three people were Maria Pachalska from Poland, Renata Whurr from London, and your very own Nancy Helm-Estabrooks. And so the first of these conferences happened in 1984, in Krakow, in Poland. I joined the next conference in Gothenburg in 1986, as a PhD student, and since then it's sort of gone mostly through Europe, but also to other parts of the world. So, Florence, Edinburgh, Zurich, Aalborg. And then I missed a few of those because I was in my childbearing years. But then I rejoined it in 1996, when it came to the US in Boston, and Carl Coelho and Robert Wertz convened the conference. Then it went to the very exciting one of Johannesburg in South Africa, Claire Penn organized that one; then Rotterdam, and then I hosted one in Brisbane in 2002. Then we went to a Greek island of Milos. We've also been then back to Sheffield, Slovenia, Montreal, came back to Australia and Melbourne, The Hague, London, Portugal and then the cancelled Vancouver one. But now it's back to the US and to Philly in June 2022. So that's very exciting.    So, these conferences, because they originated in Europe, the first few conferences, the sort of the spirit of the conferences was very much cross cultural, cross linguistic, because Europe has so many languages and so many cultures there. In the early meetings, there was a lot of that sort of sharing of information and how things were done in the different countries. But it's always been a very friendly and supportive conference. And you know, I just love the IARC.   Janet: From your perspective, Linda, what has been the guiding philosophy for IARC over the years of its existence?   Linda: Well, it's a very interesting conference, in that there is no organization that auspices the conference. It's an organic one. It is driven by the community, the aphasia community. So, I think the theme of the upcoming conference in June in Philadelphia is “the engaged community”. And that's what we've become. The conference, I think, has been pushed around the world, if you like, by this engaged community of aphasia researchers and clinicians. I think that's one of the key features of this particular conference, is that it has a very strong focus on clinical practice. It's research, but it's often research by clinicians, for clinicians. So, the guiding philosophy has been that each place that takes on the conference, molds it according to their context, so there's no financial sort of carryover, from one conference to the other. It's an entirely independent sort of conference, but it continues to grow. So, it's very interesting from that perspective.   Janet: That's really exciting to hear, because engagement is so very important. No matter what you're doing, whether you're working with a patient, whether you're engaging in research, and to see this community of researchers and clinicians engaging together to think about aphasia, I think is terrific.    Linda, IARC, as its name implies, is an international gathering with previous meetings in Portugal, Greece, although I wish I would have been at that Greek island, that must have been a fun conference, Australia, Britain and the United States. So, will you reminisce about the past meetings you attended? I'm thinking in particular about the synergy and the collaboration that evolved during the meetings, and after the meetings   Linda: Sure. The sort of collaboration that has occurred has become a very international, interwoven network. And so, what we seem to be doing is progressing the field as a whole, because we're collaborating together, we're always sharing sort of projects, we're hopefully not reinventing the wheel. So, the conference is also a sort of a place where there's a lot of meetups. For example, the Collaboration of Aphasia Trialists will often have a meeting at the IARC. Aphasia United often has a summit, what we call a summit. For example, the last one we had was in Portugal. We discussed the issue of aphasia, which is one of the major recommendations of the White Paper. That led to a paper by researchers and clinicians at that summit, that set up a bit of a research agenda and brought the attention of, hopefully, the research community, to the fact that we're not making progress on aphasia awareness; that the numbers have stayed the same pretty much for a long time. So, then that attracted the interest of a Ph.D. student, Claire Bennington, and she is an experienced clinician, and also Deputy Chairperson of the Australian Aphasia Association. Her whole Ph.D. is all about aphasia awareness. So that I think is a good illustration of how the sort of collaborations across the world then can progress some work forward.    I like the single-track format of this conference in that everyone is in the same room together. So that means that everyone gets a greater understanding of other's work. The posters, there's a lot of time and attention given to posters as well. You get an opportunity to talk directly to the people at length; it's always the place where there's the new ideas are coming through. And so that's always exciting to see what new ideas, what new therapy ideas, are being brought through into developing some evidence, maybe, for those ideas. In Australia, we often have to travel long distances to the conference, we've been scheduling afterwards a writing retreat of international researchers. And so, for a week, we just talk aphasia, and that has also been very productive because it brings the researchers closer together as well. That's something that, I think, has emerged from this particular conference.   Janet: You've said some really exciting things and ideas, simple things from the notion of progressing the field together as a whole, and working together and collaborating, sharing, because don't we all get better when we share and work with each other rather than trying to be in our little silos. You also talked about the single-track format, allowing everybody to hear the same thing, the same message, the same paper, but yet they have individual perspectives. So afterwards, we can all talk about that paper and there can be different perspectives on it, that will lead to collaboration and synergy.    Linda: Yes, yes.    Janet: That's an exciting thing that's happening.    Linda: Yeah.    Janet: Well, as interest is mounting for IARC 2022 in Philadelphia, and as we emerge from the pandemic, I believe it will be heartening to us to see each other in person again. The program is stellar. It's well rounded, and it offers content for everyone. Linda, you are one of the keynote speakers for IARC 2022, and I wonder if you might give us a little bit of a teaser or trailer about your talk and any other interesting presentations on the program. Just enough to further pique our interest in attending IARC in June.   Linda: Yes, of course. I'm very honored to be asked to be a keynote. My topic this time is about mental health and integrating mental health into aphasia rehabilitation. And so, I framed it within something I talked previously about, the seven habits of highly effective aphasia therapists. This presentation will delve much deeper into one of those habits, which is about mental health. I do try to put a lot of thought and reading and preparation into my keynotes so that clinicians can go away with some things that they can implement on Monday morning when they return to work. So that's sort of my aim. My rationale is, I think, is that every therapist will encounter someone with low mood, depression, or anxiety, if they are in the field of aphasia rehabilitation. I'm hoping to present some compelling evidence about why therapists need to integrate psychological care into their aphasia rehabilitation. I want therapists to walk away knowing how to do it. And I'm going to continue the habits theme, by using the concept of tiny habits. So that's the teaser, I'm going to try to distill all of this evidence and complexity into three tiny habits that integrate psychological care into a failure rehabilitation. So that's my challenge.   Janet: Ooh, and a big challenge it is.   Linda: Yes. Maybe some people have already sort of listened to or heard the tiny habits book, but it just resonates with me when therapists are so time poor, that integrating a tiny habit that is prompted by some other sort of therapy, or behavior in the clinic room seems to make a lot of sense to me. I know that as a clinician, that you are going from one patient to the next, and you just need some little trigger, or a prompt sometimes, and a set of words, maybe, to remember to do something, to do a good behavior. So that's the tiny habits framework.    I'm also very keen to hear some of the other presenters. Marian Brady is going to be talking about the RELEASE study. If you haven't come across the RELEASE set of papers yet, it's a step up from Cochrane in terms of the trustworthiness of this evidence. They have used a secondary analysis on over 1,000 individual participant data points, so over 1000 people with aphasia. They're asking some of the really important questions in our field, like the effectiveness, not only on language outcomes, but functional outcomes; they're asking questions about prediction; and they're asking questions and providing answers to things like timing, intensity, frequency and dose of therapy as well. That is going to be a great presentation.   And Miranda, one of the great thinkers, I think in aphasiology, Miranda Rose is continuing the theme of dose intensity in the chronic phase. She is heading up the Aphasia CRE [Centre for Research Excellence in Aphasia Rehabilitation and Recovery] in Melbourne, Australia. There are some fantastic Ph.D. students in that center, I think there's something like 37 or something Ph.D. students. So, there's a lot of work going on. Jytte Isaksen is talking about training medical staff, and honestly, I have no idea how she's done that. I find medical staff one of the biggest challenges, trying to teach them about conversation partners and how they need to modify their language. Suzanne Beeke is also talking. She's talking about her amazing website, Better Conversations, and she's from London. It's all about the dyad, you know, treatment that addresses, both people in the interaction. From that perspective, it's a really great sort of site for therapists, and there's an online learning program. I know that they have recently trialed that with primary progressive aphasia, too. Yes. So, they're some of the sort of the invited presentations that I'm particularly looking forward to. There's a lot of papers that I'm also just looking forward to in terms of presentations, things like Madeline Cruice's and Lucy Dipper's, LUNA program. It's about sort of discourse intervention, which is just going to be great. And then Aura Kagan is going to be talking about conversation partner training in the acute setting. I mean, I have always found that a really challenging sort of setting. And then of course, there's Nina's updated White Paper, Nina and Jamie Azios, and I'm really keen to hear the updated version of that White Paper as well. That's not even going along the posters, because the posters haven't been released yet. So there's, you know, lots of presentations, I think that people will just find really interesting.   Janet: It sounds like, and I tell you, you have piqued my interest far beyond what it was five minutes ago. So, I'm very excited to hear these papers. I read the RELEASE papers and I agree with your assessment, that they really are taking a look at important questions, clinical questions, that we need to be asking ourselves, how we can be more effective and more efficient in the work that we do. But I'm especially interested in hearing your talk, Linda, because I think the psychological aspect of what we do is very important. We talk to clinicians, saying, well, we should be counseling, or we should be talking to patients, and clinicians will say, “Well, no, wait a minute, I'm not a mental health professional, I can't do that.” And I would say, well, that's right, you cannot do the things that mental health professionals can do or should do. But you can have a listening ear, you can counsel people on better communication strategies. So, it's very definitely a part of our work, just having a conversation with the person with aphasia and their family member, having that conversation and being a person who shows care and concern for the person and the family, as well as for the aphasia and the change in the behavior.    We've done some work on motivation lately and depression with some research partners. One of the things that we did was review a lot of papers that reported on aphasia treatment. Many, many of them talked about motivation, but what they said is something like, well, the patient did not do well because they were not motivated, or the patient was discharged because they were not motivated. Fine. But there was no explanation of what made them not be motivated, or how did they figure out the patient was not motivated. And quite frankly, I think that motivating is part of what we need to be thinking about as clinicians because if a patient is not motivated, we need to figure it out - if it is just not the time for therapy yet? It might not be. Or is there something that we can do differently or better to engage the patient and the family member in this enterprise of aphasia therapy? I think the whole issue of mental health and emotional health, is just a critical part. It will help us be better, more efficient, more effective clinicians, I think.   Linda: Yes, I agree. I'll be talking about the stepped psychological care model. I think that provides some clarity around our role in mental health. It talks about preventing psychological health problems, and then it talks about interventions that we can do that are not, you know, like behavioral activation, doing things that are enjoyable, etc. We are part of the team for that. When people need, you know, psychological intervention, we still have a role in that psychologists need to be able to communicate with the person with aphasia. So, you know, that stepped psychological care model is, I think, very useful for understanding what our role is as the mood problems get more severe. But we've got a lot of roles even in the prevention stage, too.   Janet: Yes, we do.   Linda: My keynote will then sort of be preface to Brooke Ryan's reporting on the results of our large, cluster randomized controlled trial of an intervention aimed at preventing depression. She will be reporting on the results of that, too. That's the ASK trial.   Janet: Well, that will be exciting. I keep thinking back to this issue of the engagement that you talked about earlier, not only the community of aphasia clinical researchers, but also the engagement of the patient, the family and people in treatment. That is what makes aphasia therapy successful. We can have the best impairment-based or activity-based treatment, but if we're not engaged as a group, whatever the group means, then that reduces the likelihood for the optimal outcome, I think.   Linda: Yes, I agree totally.   Janet: So, I'm so excited about IARC. I want to tell our listeners that registration for IARC is easy. Just go to www.aphasiaaccess.org/IARC2022/. You can register there; you can also see the list of speakers and events. You can also just search on IARC aphasia and get the link as well.    Linda, you have talked about so many terrific aspects of IARC and now I would like to ask you for your personal opinion on a question, why attend IARC? By that what I mean is, what makes IARC different from other aphasia conferences? There are many aphasia-related conferences each year, we've been to many of them over the years, when our paths have crossed, and each of those has great programming. We also know though, that people have limitations, such as financial limitations, job related requirements, family responsibilities, or travel concerns. And we all have to carefully select what meetings we attend, because we can't attend all of them. So, what makes IARC stand out in your mind as a premier conference on aphasia?   Linda: I think it's in the name. International, it is truly international, and it has rehabilitation in the name. The focus is very much on rehabilitation, not so much about the nature of aphasia, it's about rehabilitation. The focus has been on translating the research to clinical practice and involving clinicians in that decision-making about what research needs to be done is very much part of that. Also, it's becoming more and more apparent that we need to involve our clients in deciding what research needs to be done too.  The Philadelphia conference is a hybrid conference, so you can attend in person or online. I think that overcomes some of the travel barriers. I think it will be a very well-presented conference from an online perspective, because I know that they're investing a lot of money into the platforms. It won't be just a Zoom-type thing; it is a bespoke platform that they're using.    I've been to most of the other aphasia conferences around the world and what I like about, and why I go to, this particular conference, is I think it's the diversity of the cultures. For example, we've got one of the presentations from Ghana this year. There's a developing speech-pathology field in Ghana, and that's just wonderful that's going to happen. From a research perspective I think all of the papers really have had a focus on optimizing outcomes for the person with aphasia and their family, so it tends to be a highly relevant, person-centered, clinician-centric conference. I think if you're a researcher, you will come away from this conference with so many fundable projects and international collaborators for that particular project. If you're a therapist, you will come away from the conference with plenty of ideas on how to improve your service, with the backing of evidence, and it may even be…fun. Not only the conference may be fun, but also that the therapy and the rehab that has the evidence can actually help clinicians, I think, remain engaged with their clients, too. So, yeah, I think whether you're a therapist or researcher, you will get a lot from this particular conference.   Janet: And you will have a lot of fun while you're doing it.    Linda: Yeah.    Janet: And that's important.    Linda, you are a role model. You truly are, for all of us whose lives are touched by aphasia, or who work to improve the lives of people with aphasia and their family members. So, as we bring this interview to a close, are there any pearls of wisdom or lessons learned, that you'd like to share with our audience?   Linda: Well, I think I've probably learned a lot of lessons from my career.   Janet: Haven't we all? Haven't we all?    Linda: Yes, absolutely. One trend that I am noticing at the moment is that as our profession ages, maybe, that there are more speech pathologists, and even professors of Speech Pathology, who either develop aphasia, or have family members who have aphasia, and that inside perspective, allows them to tell us what we're doing well, and what we're not doing so well. I've had some opportunities to talk to some of those speech pathologists and get their perspective on aphasia rehabilitation. Certainly, the three things that they keep coming back to is therapist listening, so that they can individualize their therapy to the person's day to day life and their goals; that the therapy needs to be functional, that it needs to be geared towards what the person wants to achieve; and the final thing that they keep saying is that family members need to be involved as well. That not only includes just the spouse, but in younger stroke patients particularly, Brooke Ryan's doing some work in this area, of working with children, of people who've had a stroke and who have aphasia who sometimes have been quite traumatized by finding their mother or father having a stroke. Or from the other side, the parenting with aphasia - having to parent young children when you have aphasia. Families do want to be involved.    So, I always try to think, and to bring it back to that personal thing of, “If I had aphasia, I would want…” If everyone could just reflect on what they would want if they had aphasia, then I think we would be moving more towards a person-centered approach. For example, I think any clinician who gets me as an aphasic client is going to struggle with my husband. Well, in terms of communication partner training, you know, he's just not going to be able to do it, I don't think. I really do not want to tell you the Cinderella story, nor do I want to be describing the Western Aphasia Battery picture description. I sometimes feel as if I'd like to do an advanced health directive – do you do those sort of things where you write down what you want to happen more towards the end of your life?   Janet: We do. And that's a great idea, do not give me the Western Aphasia Battery picture, do not tell me Cinderella.   Linda: That's right. Absolutely. You know, really thinking about, okay, well, if I had aphasia, what services would I want? For therapists to reflect on that and to build their services around that, as well as listening to what their clients want.   Janet: You mentioned the three things that patients with aphasia have said that they'd like the clinicians to do; listen, make the treatment functional, and involve the family. Those are so very, very important. I want to make sure I say that the sentence that you said, or the really the call to action, or the challenge that you're giving all of us, is to ask, “If I had aphasia, I would want…” That's a profound question. Because I suspect most of us go through our lives, thinking that it won't happen to us. But it might. And if it did, what would I want?    Linda: Yeah, yeah. The number of speech pathologists who have a parent with aphasia, sometimes this is the reason why they've come into the profession, and why they've come into this interest area. And so, you know, it will happen to our family members, or even to us. So, it helps us to think, rather than thinking of the client as being some other person, it's about making it more person-centered.   Janet: I think about years ago, I don't even recall the situation, but in a graduate class, I was talking about this issue, in not quite as enlightened a way as you are doing now, but I remember telling the students, if I ever have aphasia and you are my clinician, please don't ever make me name pictures. And that's exactly what you're saying here for us to be cognizant of what the treatment envelope is like, not just the specific treatment technique, but the desires, the reality of what the level of recovery could be, and the family members' desires and needs.   Linda: Yes, absolutely. Yeah, our patients, our clients have a lot to tell us, we really do need to listen to what they're saying.   Janet: I hope we do. I hope that we all learn to listen much better as the days and weeks and years go on in front of us.    This is Janet Patterson, and I'm speaking to you from the VA in Northern California, and along with Aphasia Access, I would like to thank my guest, Linda Worrall, for sharing her knowledge and experiences about IARC with us. I'm especially thankful to Linda, for talking about person-centered aphasia, for having this discussion about things that we can do to make the therapy session more engaging and more relevant for our patients and for their family members. I'm hopeful that each of you will join Linda and many others at IARC 2022. Remember that you can register at www.aphasiaaccess.org.   You can find references and links in the Show Notes from today's podcast interview with Linda Worrall at Aphasia Access under the Resource tab on the homepage. On behalf of Aphasia Access, we thank you for listening to this episode of the Aphasia Access Conversations Podcast Project. For more information on Aphasia Access, and to access our growing library of materials, and to register for IARC 2022 Please go to www.aphasiaaccess.org. If you have an idea for a future podcast topic, please email us at info@aphasiaaccess.org, and thank you again for your ongoing support of Aphasia Access.

CHRIS NEWBOLD: Hello, well-being friends. And welcome to The Path to Well-Being in law podcast, an initiative of the Institute for Well-Being in Law. I'm your co-host Chris Newbold, executive vice-president of ALPS Malpractice Insurance. And again, you all know now that what we are really excited about in this podcast is to introduce you to thought leaders doing meaningful work in the well-being space.                 And we know that in the process that this army of well-being advocates is growing, and our goal is also to build and nurture a national network of well-being advocates intent on creating a culture shift within the profession. And I'm really excited for today's podcast because so much of what the future of our profession ultimately starts with how we're training the next generation of law students. And so we're on the cusp here of starting a three-part kind of mini series and really focusing in on well-being and law schools.                 And we are super excited to be welcoming I think one of really the kind of showcased law schools in the country when we think about kind of focusing on well-being as part of the culture within the law school environment. We are excited to welcome Linda Sugin to the podcast. And Bree, would you introduce Linda for us? BREE BUCHANAN: Absolutely. And hello everybody. Professor Sugin, and we're just going to call you Linda really is you can see, and we have not met before, but looking at your just history, it's clear that you have so much passion for the well-being of the students and that your bio, you've been a part of the Fordham Law faculty since 1994 and moved into the associate dean for academic affairs in 2017. And it seems like that you just sort of took the school by storm in a way and putting in amazingly new, innovative programs to address what I imagine you were seeing, which was at least a lot of dis ease among the student population there.                 And so it's just really clear that you saw that problem and you got to work. Professor Sugin's scholarly interests focus on issues of distributive justice in taxation and the governance of nonprofit organizations. She was the 2021 recipient of the dean's medal of achievement, well-deserved, and the 2007 recipient of Fordham Law School's Teacher of the Year Award. So Linda, thank you so much for being here today.                 I'm not going to go through the details of your bio because we're going to kind of pull that out as we go through this podcast today. But I want to start off with the question that we always begin with. I think it's one of the most interesting pieces that we get from our guests, which is to hear about what brought you to what is now a movement, the well-being in law of movement. And we found that typically people have some passion or experience in their life that drives their work. So tell us what brought you to this work and welcome to our podcast. LINDA SUGIN: Thank you so much. And thank you for that kind introduction. And thank you, Bree and Chris for inviting me to this podcast today. So I have to admit that I actually came to this pretty late in my career, that I spent more than 20 years as a law professor without really being focused or aware of this at all. In my career as a professor, I've always loved my students and I've tried to nurture them as best as I can, but I never really questioned the basic way that law school is structured and the way that students traditionally learn in law school environments.                 But when I became the associate dean in 2017, the first thing I did was convene a student advisory board to hear what students wanted and needed most from the law school. And I was kind of surprised that what I heard was a lot of frustration, a lot of disappointment, a lot of shame, and a lot of anger. And I really saw how much pain so many students were feeling because of what was happening within the law school, with their classmates, with their teachers.                 And so it was really that experience that led me to committing myself to improving the student experience by trying to better understand the emotional reality of students. I realized that we could never succeed with our academic mission if we continue to ignore the emotional toll that law school was taking on so many students. And so that's what really brought me to it. BREE: Wow. I love those words. Just when you talked about the power of those emotions that you were hearing about the shame and anger just those are powerful things. And I also was really impressed when you were talking about the emotional reality of students, and I'll tell you to hear what I would think a stereotypical tax professor, my experience with tax professors to talk about the emotional reality of their students and focusing on that, that's just amazing so I can see why you're so good at what you do. CHRIS: Linda, it sounds like your student advisory group, I'm guessing that your impressions surprised you a bit from that early group discussion. LINDA: They did, they did because I had never really taken such a broad view of what was going on in the law school, that I had my own classes, that I had sort of total control over. But I really wasn't aware of a lot of the dynamic that was happening throughout the law school both in and out of the classroom. And I think that that's what's really important, is to understand that law school is a really immersive experience for students and the culture of law school is very challenging for many students coming in. CHRIS: Well, let's set the stage a little bit. Can you just give us some context for Fordham Law School, right? Location, size, focus, types of students, kind of what the existing culture was maybe before you kind of more kind of deliberately started to focus on it. We'd just kind of love to set the stage on kind of learning a little bit more about the law school itself. LINDA: Okay, great. Yeah. So Fordham Law School actually is a really great place and always has been a great place. It's a Jesuit school, and we have a tradition of public service that really stems from that. And Fordham has historically welcomed students from groups that are traditionally underrepresented in the legal profession. So the first black woman to practice law in New York state was a 1924 graduate of Fordham Law School. And so we go way back in our institutional commitment to inclusion, community and holistic learning.                 But at the same time, we are one of the largest law schools in the country within the top 10 and we have over 400 students who come in every year. The good part of that is it makes a very vibrant academic life. There's tons going on all the time. But it also presents a challenge for creating connection. It's very easy for students to feel invisible in that crowd and so it's really important to find smaller communities within the law school where people really find what they're passionate about and where they can really excel.                 We are also smack in the middle of New York city. Our students come from all over the country and all over the world actually, but most of them want to stay and work in New York when they graduate. We are right next door to Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts, down the block from the Time Warner Center, which is all fantastic, but we don't have much housing for students on campus. And so many of our students commute from a long distance because our neighborhood is very expensive.                 And actually over the 25 years that I've been at Fordham Law School, the neighborhood has become increasingly expensive. And that physical distance and being in the middle of the city with all of the excitement and stimulation of the city makes community building even more challenging. And so there are many wonderful things about Fordham Law School, but also challenges connected to the kind of issues that we're focusing on today. BREE: So Linda, tell me, I was looking at your bio and the work that you've done there at Fordham, and it looks like a real area of focus that you've been developing is around the professionalism for students. And I want to ask you what were you seeing among the students? I know that you had the focus group, but what are some of the areas that you're trying to address when you're focusing on students' professionalism and what does that mean? We've got that word there and it's easy to assign a meeting, but what do you mean when you talk about professionalism for your students? LINDA: Yes. Thank you for asking that question because I do think that people have different ideas of what professionalism is. I see professionalism as really a very broad category of all the different kinds of capabilities that individuals need to succeed in the legal profession. So mental health and wellness is certainly one important part of it, but I focused on other aspects under that umbrella as well. And I think they're all connected to each other.                 One of the things that I was seeing when I started thinking about doing this kind of work was that depending on where students worked before coming to law school or other experiences that they had in their backgrounds, some students didn't know the expectations that other people might have for lawyers, people like judges, for example. And so we developed some programming around that, what the expectation is going to be, and I call that the integrity programming, right?                 Nothing is more important for lawyers than integrity. But I felt like some students had a more developed understanding and some students just needed more education in what that meant as lawyers. And then in addition, there are lots of professional skills that are not really part of what we think of as the traditional professional skills curriculum that we have in law schools. So every law school has a curriculum that includes interviewing, counseling, negotiation.                 But the skills that I really have focused on are little mushier, skills like effective listening, empathy, self-awareness, giving and getting feedback, growth mindset, understanding cognitive biases. I'm really committed to lawyering as a service profession, a helping profession and that drives a lot of this for me. We need to orient ourselves so that we can really be a helping profession. I sometimes think about former students that I've had and one who comes to mind is I once had a truly brilliant student who would critique his classmates' arguments in the most devastating way. And I tried to teach him how to have a more productive disagreement.                 So I think that it's really important that lawyers recognize the humanity in every person and learn how to advocate, defend and disagree with respect and compassion. And I feel like that's a huge piece of professional education as well. In our polarized times, this is really hard for people to do. BREE: Right. LINDA: But I think that it's a really important part of the project because it's essential, I think for what lawyers really care about, which is justice. CHRIS: That's awesome because, I mean, it feels like we hear a lot about emotional intelligence, right? And it feels like in some respects, you're focusing, again, some of your efforts intentionally on the emotional readiness of lawyers as they enter the profession, which again, I'm not certain a lot of peer institutions in the law schools, they may talk about it, but it seems like you're going at it with some notion of intentionality. LINDA: Yeah. And so we don't think that our students will know everything about the law when they get out, but the idea is that we give them the tools so they can learn what they need to learn when they get out into the real world. And I feel like these are crucial tools to enable them to navigate all the spaces that they're going to be in after they graduate. CHRIS: What a worthy investment. And then it feels like there's a couple of other foundational building blocks in your program, namely the peer mentorship program and the house program. Can you describe those programs and how they work and what they're designed to do for students? LINDA: Yeah. So those are our two biggest initiatives that come under this professionalism umbrella and the key design feature of both of these programs is institutional infrastructure. The students being served are at the center, but there is a whole web of support that we've built around them. And that support includes faculty, it includes administrators, it also includes other students. A really big and important part of our professionals in programming is leadership development.                 And we have been thoughtful about where we use leadership and where we use professionalism because they're related but I don't think that they're entirely the same. So it's key in these programs that we support the students who participate in these programs as the leadership. So the house system we developed primarily for the first year students and it's organized by sections. So law school is still the same as it was when I went where all first year students, or at least at Fordham it is, all first-year students have all their classes with the same cohort, and so we call that cohort a house.                 But what we did within that structure is three things. So the first thing is that we used the house to connect students with faculty and administrators. So there's a faculty house leader who runs programs and the students can turn to with problems and questions. Usually that's a person who's not one of their teachers and the idea is that this is sort of a neutral faculty member who understands the institution, understands where these students are going and what their needs might be.                 In addition, there are librarians, student affairs counselors, career planning counselors, and other people assigned to each house so that students know people in all the administrative offices that they're going to need to work with. And we think that this really eases the entree to looking for a job, getting academic support when you need it. In addition, there are alumni mentors, mostly recent graduates for each house.                 So the house is really designed to create connections for students with people in all these different ways who will be essential to their development as lawyers. The second thing the house does is it's the place where we do a lot of programming around professionalism. So programs on choosing career paths and thinking about co-curricular activities, mental health, equity and inclusion. We have specific programs on a lot of different things.                 Some of them are more formal, some of them are more casual, but the idea is that the students get together for house meeting every week. There is a real curriculum and so it deserves to be treated as part of the academic program. And that has been great in many ways because there were so many random programs that students had to or should take part in and this was a way to organize it and to really rationalize the curriculum as a whole.                 And the third thing is that house is social. It gives students an opportunity to interact with each other in a context other than class. So this was a little hard in the pandemic, but we did the best we could, we hope it'll grow more when we're back in person. But the idea being that there are house parties, there are inter-house competitions, pro bono projects that the houses do, really giving students a way to interact with each other that's outside of the strict confines of their classes in which students seem so one-dimensional to each other.                 And so we think that the community of students that we create the first year is really key to the continued success of students throughout their law school career. The peer mentorship program is really my passion project. It grew directly out of the student advisory board that I mentioned and it's designed for second year students.                 And what I learned in talking to students was that we kind of had been ignoring students starting their second year, but that that's a point of tremendous vulnerability for a lot of students, that the first year we decide everything for them, they don't get to choose any of their classes, it's the rigid schedule and then they have their first summer, some students will be disappointed with their first year grades, some will have had failed job searches, most students will not have made law view.                 And so the beginning of the second year, it turns out, is a really tough time for a lot of students. And after taking care of all decisions for them in the first year, at the beginning of the second year we're like, "Okay, go. Now, do what you want." And so that is an easy moment for students to feel overwhelmed, to feel isolated. But really the law school never recognized how precarious students can be at the start of their second year.                 And so what we did in the peer mentorship program is that we created a system where there would be third year mentors for second year mentees. And the key aspect of the program is that all mentors must take a class that focuses on mentoring skills. There are three of us who teach the program. So the director of professionalism who we hired in 2019 teaches with me as does an additional adjunct who is a 2018 graduate of the law school.                 But the idea is that the teachers support the mentors who support the mentees. And of course, the skills that we teach in the class are skills that are not only useful for being a good mentor, they are useful for being effective lawyers and good professionals after graduation as well. So the program is voluntary for both the second and the third years, but it has grown exponentially since it started in 2018. And I hope that eventually all students will choose to participate because I think it can be a really enriching experience no matter what the students' experiences are. BREE: Wonderful. Linda, when I was thinking about a common theme for both of those programs, and it looks like a lot of your work is to help create connection, which is so vital to a sense of well-being and to break through the sense of isolation. There's a research that came out in the last year or so that showed that lawyers are the loneliest of all professionals. And I think a lot of that can start in law school with the inherent sense of being in competition with everyone that you're there with. I wanted to ask you also going back to the very beginning of the law school experience, and you've done a lot around the orientation process. Could you talk to us about what changes you ushered in for the August orientation for everyone and what issues you were trying to address? LINDA: Yeah, sure. So I'm a tax professor and some years ago I spearheaded a project to teach students some basic quantitative skills that lawyers need. Of course, people come to law school because they never want to do anything quantitative again. But of course, when you become a lawyer, you realize that you actually need to have some quantitative skills. So we put it in orientation because we saw that as part of a toolbox really for students beginning their law school journey.                 You have to learn how to brief a case and you have to have some other basic tools also. So when I became associate dean, it occurred to me that we should do the same thing for professional tools, that we should make sure that students have what they need so that they can better succeed in law school and as lawyers. And so we added a module to orientation that focuses on personal values and developing a professional identity. From day one, we want students to think about how they can be lawyers while also being their authentic best selves.                 In their first days of law school, we talk about implicit bias and anti-racism, growth mindset, vulnerability and empathy, and character strengths. The idea being you came here for a reason and we want you to remember what that reason was and be the kind of lawyer that you want to be. And so we sort of start that message in orientation, all the things you do in orientation, you have to keep doing it again. And of course, it's worth revisiting so many of the things that we do in orientation later on. But our ongoing development of the professionalism curriculum is about building competencies throughout these areas.                 In addition, one of the big things that we did with orientation is that we added an orientation in the middle of the first year in January. So before the students come back for their second semester, they spend a day, this coming year we'll make it a two day program but the idea was that there were some things that we couldn't do in August because the students hadn't yet built the trust that they would need to have certain kinds of conversations. So we wanted to do a deeper dive into anti-racism and engage students in more sensitive conversations.                 And it seemed that students would be better prepared to do that after a semester and it would really be too early to do that in August. And so we made that a full day program in January all about equity and inclusion. And last year, we were able to hire a director of diversity who has been fantastic designing and leading this program. Next year, we're planning to build out the January orientation into a two day program so that students can also reflect on their strengths, values and commitments as they start on their second semester and really dig deep into growth mindset, which is so important to their continued success in law school. BREE: Wow. That's profound. I really am particularly impressed listing to adding in that January orientation and being really thoughtful about where do we place basically this curriculum for our students. And that is just fabulous. Linda, we're going to take a break to hear from our sponsor right now and then when we get back, we're going to get to hear more about what you're working on. So thank you, and we'll be right back. Welcome back everybody. And we have with us today, Professor Linda Sugin, the associate dean for academic affairs at Fordham Law School.                 And Linda, we were just talking about the orientation programs and all of these ideas of really around helping students feel connected and breaking through some of the isolation. Could you just talk generally about these programs we just discussed? How do you see them helping the students maintain, I guess, their mental health and the best place to be able to learn as students and benefit from their law school experience? LINDA: Yes. Thank you. So what we have seen in looking at the success of our students after they graduate is that connection in law school is the most important indicator of success. And so we were very, very purposeful in trying to figure out ways that could find their home, their connections within the law school. And a lot of students do it organically. The students who are on a competition team or on a journal, they often find their smaller cohort that really supports them but there are always some students who fall through those cracks.                 And so those are the students that we are trying to help find connection. And so let me focus a little bit more on the peer mentorship program because that's one of the biggest initiatives that we have. I mentioned it before, but I'll tell you a little bit more about how it's organized. So we have it so that all students are part of a group with more than one mentor. Last year, we had a lot of mentees so most groups had two or three mentors and five or six mentees. And so that gives you a little community within the law school that you can work out any way that it works for you.                 And some of the groups really click as a whole, and that's like a little team there of seven or eight students. Some of the groups end up pairing off in various ways and individuals find connections between mentors and mentees on different issues or for different reasons. And it's all good, we feel like it really works out. I'm going to stick my neck out here a little bit and say I think all students feel isolation, self-doubt and fear, even the strongest students feel those things.                 And it really breaks my heart that so many of them think that they're the only ones having these feelings because that's what they think. And if they could just be a little bit more vulnerable with each other, they would find so much shared experience and mutual reassurance. So having a person or a group to share your insecurities with is really important. The peer mentors are only one year ahead of the mentees.                 So they have just a little bit of knowledge that the mentees don't have, but they are really in the same place as the mentees in so many ways. So lots of the mentors are still looking for jobs, they're questioning whether they want to be lawyers, they're still struggling to finish their homework on time, right? So they're feeling a lot of the same feelings and they can really understand what the second year mentees are going through.                 There's just enough distance there and enough closeness that they can really provide crucial support that I think nobody else can. The faculty can't do that, their families who don't understand what's happening in law school can't really do that. And so that was really why the program was designed. But my greatest surprise pleasure of the peer mentorship program has been seeing the mentors grow. So because they take this class with me, I watch them and I can see how they grow in confidence and well-being over the course of the semester.                 The course that the peer mentors take focuses on skills like teamwork, cross-cultural communication, cultivating growth mindset, right? All the topics that we cover are important to professional success. And the mentors keep journals every week that I read. And what I see is that so many of them get so much gratification from the mentoring work. Helping others, as we know from lots of research, is good for our own mental health. And so the program has been really helpful for both the mentees and the mentors. I guess I just want to mention the one other big leadership program that we have, we call it the professionalism fellows program and it's connected to the house system.                 We just finished the first year of the program and it was a great success in ways that I hadn't really anticipated. Because at the beginning, the fellows started out somewhat timidly, but by the end, the most striking thing I noticed was that the fellows have really developed into partners with the administration in problem solving and program development. And so there was tremendous growth in both the peer mentors and in the professionalism fellows over the time of working with them. And so I think that this is really key to maintaining their mental health as well as setting them up to be successful lawyers. CHRIS: Linda, as I mentioned at the top, this podcast kicks off a three-part mini series on the connection between well-being and law schools. I'm hoping that we can pivot a little bit right now and kind of talk a little bit about again, best practices and what are... I think we really would enjoy packaging this up and making sure that we can get this into the hands as to as many law school leaders as possible.                 So to that end, what suggestions do you have for others who may be interested in developing similar programs? Again, it seems like you've been very progressive, thoughtful and intentional about what you're trying to do with your student body. So what worked, what would you do differently, what advice would you offer others listening in? LINDA: Okay. Yeah, great. So I guess that there were two things that I would advise other schools. So the first one is student leadership. I'm really a huge fan of student leadership. I really believe in the peer mentorship model for all the reasons I was just describing. But you need to be prepared to provide a lot of institutional support. You can't expect student leaders to feel confident without backing them up with training and encouragement.                 I agreed to take on this work in the first place on the condition that we hire someone who would report directly to me and work on these issues full time. And I had the great fortune to be blessed with the most talented and committed person for the job and Jordana Confino has been an amazing partner to me in this work since 2019. So get students involved, give them... empower them to really do important things, but make sure that you're backing them up, supporting them and helping them at every step of the way.                 And then I guess the second thing, and this sort of goes to, we've made a lot of mistakes too as well as our successes, I just don't like to talk about them as much, but I would suggest that people turn to experts if they can. We were lucky at Fordham to get some philanthropic gifts to support our diversity equity and inclusion programming. And it allowed us to hire people with experience and training doing the kind of work that we wanted to do. So I feel like once we did that, it really, really helped a lot of the programming that we have been trying to do without that support which was not going as well and was really challenging.                 So now after three years, I guess I can say I have a lot of expertise in creating a peer mentorship program, but at the beginning it would have been really helpful to have worked with a consultant and I may have made fewer mistakes if I had been able to turn to more expert support. Of course, that takes money. And I hope that one of the things like this podcast will do is really convince the community that it's worth it to invest in these kinds of programs, that they're really meaningful for the students who benefit for them and they can really be transformational for the student experience.                 And that I hope that we can really make them a fundamental part of what law school is. rather than something that's just icing on the cake that we do if we can get some outside support for it. So that's kind of my next challenge, is to try to really bring these kinds of programs into the core of what legal education is. BREE: And I've spent some time as a clinical professor at a law school and my experience in sort of looking around there, that who holds the most power in the law school and who in some ways are the gatekeepers are trying to put on a new program such as this, and that's my experience was the tenured faculty, that block of individuals and the law school administration, particularly the office of the dean. How did you get those two groups on board with these initiatives? LINDA: Well, I was really lucky that the dean was basically on board all along. We had done a strategic plan shortly before I became associate dean and the strategic plan had some sort of general intention to improve the student experience. And so I felt like that gave me the go ahead to sort of figure out what the content of that would be. And so I've had tremendous support from the dean from the beginning, and he's really done a lot of fundraising around this work, which has been tremendous.                 The faculty is always more varied and you get a lot of different views on the faculty. I would say that there were a core group of faculty members who were very enthusiastic, particularly about the house system and they have worked incredibly hard from the beginning to collaborate with the administration to turn the house system idea into reality. And I think that some of it is that other faculty who maybe were a little bit more skeptical were kind of waiting and looking and seeing, but I think that now that the house system is up and running, people see how good it is for the students.                 Now, there are some new people who are getting involved, which is also really gratifying. But I do think that it's important not to pressure people into doing anything they don't want to do. I think that as these things prove themselves to be useful and meaningful, things will be easier going forward. I think that law schools are pretty slow moving institutions in general and making big changes take time. And I don't feel like I need to be in a huge rush because I see that this is a long-term goal that will have really long-term benefits that are worth waiting for. CHRIS: Linda, are you seeing anything on your commitment to well-being in terms of playing out in terms of your strategies on recruiting new students into Fordham? Because it certainly feels like again, there's a more societal recognition of how important this is and I'm wondering whether you're playing that into recruitment strategies in what we know is a very competitive landscape and it comes to recruiting law students into the institution. LINDA: Absolutely. So in our admitted student days, we always talk about our professionalism initiatives. The professionalism office gets a lot of inquiries from admitted students. So there's no question that students are looking for these kinds of programs. I think that students are looking for law schools that understand that students have needs and are prepared to address those needs. And so I think that our students are pretty picky consumers when it comes to what the culture of the law school is and what the approach of the administration is. And I hope that we show ourselves to be the kind of welcoming, caring community that we are because we really are. CHRIS: Yeah, that's great. Well, let's spend the last couple of minutes that we have. I mean, obviously Fordham sits at the epicenter of the COVID-19 outbreak, right? And the pandemic. I'd just be curious, Linda, of what impact the pandemic had on your student body, what some of your concerns were and how you're working in the constraints set by the pandemic to continue to support student well-being in what's otherwise been a very uncertain time. LINDA: Yeah. So it has been a brutal 15 months, I admit that. And the losses that people have suffered are real and varied in our community. And I think that right now we need to focus on recovery. Things are much, much better here in New York now and it seems like things are coming back to life and we are hoping that in the fall we will be back to what we traditionally know as law school.                 The pandemic was really extra hard for the kinds of things that we've been focused on in the professionalism program, so really hard for community building. But I think that our programs were crucial in getting everybody through the pandemic. If you rely only on organic community building, people making friends in their classes, people might not be able to do it in a pandemic. But I think a lot of our students really needed to connect with each other and with their teachers.                 And so I worked with a lot of the faculty throughout the pandemic to help support them in creating welcoming and warm learning communities within their classes. So we had student faculty conversations on all sorts of current issues. We encouraged faculty to make space for more casual student interactions. So faculty did things like they held happy hours and game nights and cooked dinner together virtually with their students and I think all of these things really did make a difference.                 We saw in the peer mentorship program that the mentoring groups that would meet weekly really treated it as a gem of a moment that they could get together and have some social interaction with other students when they really had so few opportunities to do that kind of thing. So I'm not going to say that it was good, it was really, really hard for everybody. And it was hard financially and there were a lot of people who got sick and who had a lot of illness in their family so it was definitely challenging.                 But I do always try to look for the silver lining. And so when we're back in the fall, the plan is that we will continue to use some of the remote tools that we learned how to use that I think that some of them can really enrich the support structure of the law school. We have to strike a balance between flexibility, convenience, and immersion and I think we'll be calibrating that when we get back. But for our fall academic program, I scheduled some online classes in the curriculum even though mostly we're going to be back in person. So I hope that what we'll take from this year of disruption will be some tools that we can use to make a richer learning environment that includes everything. BREE: Linda, this has been fascinating and inspiring too, and we're coming to the end of our time together. But just finally, if one of our listeners was interested in learning more about these innovative programs at Fordham, could you give them some advice on how to learn more? LINDA: Yeah. So we have a page on the Fordham Law School website for the office of professionalism that has lots of information on the programs that we're doing. Even better, I love to talk about what we're doing and so does our director of professionalism. So people should feel free to reach out to me and to her Jordana Confino. Our contact information is on the office of professionalism page. We are really hoping to help other schools replicate particularly our peer mentorship program because we believe it can be really transformational. And so next year when we sort of take this to the next level, that's one of the things that I'm going to be focusing on, is how is it that we help other schools to incorporate some of these things that I think have made a really big difference for us. CHRIS: Well, yeah. What important work that you're doing. I mean, I just love the fact that you've invested so much time and energy into the emotional readiness of the law school experience and I think that that's going to obviously pay dividends for the culture that you're building within the law school itself. But if I'm an employer and I'm thinking about what type of students I ultimately want to hire into my firm, knowing that I have a student who's kind of emotionally ready for the practice of law seems to be a really wise investment from a hiring decision. So any final closing thoughts on that Linda or anything else that you want to raise to our listeners? LINDA: Just that I hope in addition to helping them work more effectively, I hope that all of this will really make our students happier lawyers. And so it's really important that the work that lawyers do to our society, and I think it's really important that we care for lawyers so that they can do that work and have gratifying and happy lives. CHRIS: All right. Professor Linda Sugin, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. And again, for our listeners, our next two podcasts will also be focused on law schools' culture and some of the advancements going on. But again, what a great way to kick off this mini series to talk about the Fordham experience. And thank you listeners for joining and we'll be back in a couple of weeks. Thanks. LINDA: Thanks you so much for having me. CHRIS: Thanks, Linda.

Me: "The legend goes that Koh Phangan in Thailand is sitting on rose quartz which is a healing crystal energy... And that's why it's so magical." Linda: "Well... Okay... I can't get with the program but whatever floats your boat."This is Single Minded, the podcast flipping the script on being single. Because being single is awesome.On today's episode, I fill Linda in on my psychic reading and energy healing sessions I had over the Christmas break. Linda doesn't believe in psychics, but she is open to learning more about energy. Enter Raelene... I did a 90 minute healing session with her on the last day of 2020, and afterwards had the BEST SLEEP OF MY LIFE. You can't argue with that kind of scientific research, now can you Linda? When Raelene asked me what I wanted clarity on, of course I said men. At the end of the sesh, I had a BIG lightbulb moment.Um... Do I choose the wrong men???One of the most profound things Raelene said to me in our session was: "You are your purpose." What the hell does that mean? You'll have to listen to the episode to find out ;) Guest: Raelene Byrne Her website: https://raelenebyrne.com/Her eBooks: https://raelenebyrne.com/ebooksYou can book in for energy work here: https://raelenebyrne.com/90-and-60-minute-consultations/

Linda Hollander, CEO of Sponsor Concierge and the founder of the Sponsor Secrets Seminar, has been featured by Inc magazine as the leading expert on corporate sponsorship. She has over 20 years of experience as a small business owner, and as the industry leader in teaching people how to tap into the awesome power of corporate sponsors. She's the author of the number one bestseller "Corporate Sponsorship in Three Easy Steps." She's also the CEO of Sponsor Concierge and the founder of the Sponsor Secrets Seminar. Her sponsors include Microsoft Epson, Wells Fargo, Dun and Bradstreet, FedEx, American Airlines, Staples, HealthNet, Marriott, IBM aandt Walmart. Al Lapin Jr. The founder of IHOP restaurants says, "If your goal is to be a success, Linda Hollander has paved the way for you." Learn more about Linda. Learn more about The Passionistas Project. Full Transcript: Passionistas: Hi, and welcome to the Passionistas Project Podcast. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and today we're talking with Linda Hollander. Linda has been featured by Inc magazine as the leading expert on corporate sponsorship. She has over 20 years of experience as a small business owner, and as the industry leader in teaching people how to tap into the awesome power of corporate sponsors. She's the author of the number one bestseller "Corporate Sponsorship in Three Easy Steps." She's also the CEO of Sponsor Concierge and the founder of the Sponsor Secrets Seminar. Her sponsors include Microsoft Epson, Wells Fargo, Dun and Bradstreet, FedEx, American Airlines, Staples, HealthNet, Marriott, IBM aandt Walmart. Al Lapin Jr. The founder of IHOP restaurants says, "If your goal is to be a success, Linda Hollander has paved the way for you." So please welcome to the show Linda Hollander. Linda: Hey, great to be here, ladies. Passionistas: We're so excited to have you. Thank you, Linda. What's the one thing you're most passionate about? Linda: Oh wow. Just one thing. Uh, well I'm, I am actually a Sponsor Passionista and that's what I'm most excited about. I love empowering women financially, so they can make better choices in life, so they can live their passion as you teach them to do. Uh, so they can send their kids to better schools, uh, so they can have better lives. Uh, and I want everybody has a challenge and my goal in life is to have people discover and achieve their greatness. Passionistas: Tell us a little bit about your background and how that led to you getting into the world of corporate sponsorships. Linda: Okay. Well, remember when I told me that everybody has challenges and especially now where we're working with a lot of challenges, what I did is I started a company with my best friend, Cheryl. And that's why I love forums like this because I am all about women's empowerment. And I've been in that movement for over 20 years. So Cheryl and I though, we met when we were 13 years old at recess and we became bonded. We became, I guess, kind of closer than sisters. And I know you two have a lot of girl power going on. Uh, so we said, "Oh my God, when we grow up, if we do something together, it's going to be amazing and it's going to be absolutely phenomenal." So we started this company, uh, it was all about bags, uh, because I was an art major. I didn't study business at all in college. Uh, everything I took was art. I thought business was boring. She was a, a cinema major. Uh, but, uh, we got together and we started this company producing bags. And when I say bags, I don't mean ladies purses. I mean, promotional shopping bags, the ones that you see at trade shows and at shopping malls. And our clients were Disney and Mattel and Nissan. And, you know, we had all know, we turned this little silly, stupid idea of producing bags into a multi-million dollar business. Now that's all well and good. And Oh my God, working with your best friend is amazing. Uh, but it wasn't always that way for me, because before I started my business, I was in a dead end job. Uh, I wasn't making enough money at my job. So I borrowed on credit cards and then pretty quickly I saw that, Oh my God, when I went to the mailbox, my hand would literally shake when I opened that mailbox because there were bills there that I could never, ever afford to pay. And I wasn't living larger or anything. I was just kind of trying to make my rent every month. And sometimes it was, it was a struggle. A lot of times it was a struggle. I had to work with people that I didn't like. Uh, I had a very abrasive relationship with my boss and you know, my heart and my soul was absolutely crying out because I had the fire of an entrepreneur. And this kind of was a toxic situation to be in, in that business. Sometimes at lunch, I would go into my car and I would cry. And on my, uh, personal side, in my personal life, I was in a relationship with an abusive man. And I stayed in that relationship for many years because basically I thought that was what I deserved. And I couldn't see a way out of it. Fortunately, ladies, one day I had an epiphany and, uh, uh, I fired my boss. Uh, I dumped the abusive boyfriend and I called my friend Cheryl. And I said, do you want to take the biggest adventure ride of our lives together and start a business? And fortunately she said, yes. So that started me on a trajectory. I was able to move out of my little rent controlled apartment. I bought my first home as a single woman. I was able to travel the world. I was able to pay down that debt. That was absolutely choking me. But what I loved most was mentoring other people in business because they didn't just come to me to order bags. And by the way, we were one of the only female owned packaging companies. So we walk, we work with a lot of women business owners and they said, "Linda, how do I do sales? How do I do marketing?" So then I came up with the idea of creating a women's small business expo because I wanted to show other women how to empower themselves by learning entrepreneurship. And then I looked and I said, "Oh my God, to do this event the way I want to do it. Cause I wanted to do a really high class event. Uh, it's going to be a lot of money." So that's when I went on the internet and I said, what are these things called sponsors? And I found out that sponsors would underwrite — write this down. If you're near a piece of paper — your business, your event, uh, if you're a speaker, if you're an author, you can get sponsors. If you have a podcast, if you have a blog, if you're a social influencer, if you have a show, you could get a sponsor. And lastly, if you want to start a nonprofit charity, you can get sponsors. And I work with a lot of people who do projects like documentary filmmakers. And then what I'm going to tell you today about getting sponsors. You could apply to your child also. Because if your child is in an after-school group or a sports team, you can use these techniques for your child. So basically my first sponsors were bank of America, Walmart and IBM. And this was working from my home, uh, actually from my kitchen table with the cat as my only employee. Uh, and, uh, you know, I had no experience. I'd never done an event in my life. Here's what I did though. I sold them on the concept and I'm going to tell you how to get sponsors by selling them on the concept of what you do. And then people would come to the events and they'd say, "Linda, I love this, but how are you getting all these sponsors?" And so now we do events and I do consulting about how you can get corporate sponsors to fund your dreams. Passionistas: How can people identify their potential sponsors? Linda: The best way to identify your potential sponsors is by your demographics. Write this down. If you're near a paint pen and paper — demographics are destiny. So I'll give you my demographic. And it, at the time it was women's business owners. So women business owners, oh my God, there's such spending power. There there's such economic power. There. Women are starting businesses at twice. The rate of men, women make or influence over 85% of the purchasing decisions in America. Women in America spend more than five countries combined. So I researched this and that's what I, how I chose my sponsors. Another way to find your sponsors is to look at similar properties and who's sponsoring them. So what you have now, it's called a property. Whether it's your business or your event or your book or your speaking, or your show, it's called a property in the world of sponsors. So what I did was I looked at other women's business conferences and saw who the sponsors were. And they could be my sponsors too. And people say, "Oh my God, Linda on isn't their budget gone if they're sponsoring this and that?" No, absolutely not. And then you don't have to educate them on the value of what you're doing, because they're already in that particular space. Passionistas: What are sponsors looking for? Linda: Exactly the most important thing that you have to sell to your sponsors. And I'm going to repeat it again, is your audience, your audience. The definition sponsorship is connecting a company to people who buy things. So sponsors are looking for return on investment. So let's say you're in the parenting space and you teach parents, parents how to effectively raise their kids. Okay. The mom market, the parent market is a two point $4 trillion market, uh, in America. So that's why sponsors will pay you because you can connect them to people who can buy their stuff. It is basically a marketing play. Passionistas: What do you think is the biggest mistake people make when they're looking for sponsors? Linda: Uh, just one. Okay. We'll do a couple. Uh, the first is not charging enough money. Uh, if you don't ask for enough money from your sponsors, uh, basically it's going to hurt you in the sponsor world because you're telling your sponsors that you have nothing of value to offer and it's not worth their time. Uh, basically sponsorship is kind of a team sport. Uh, so what you do is you have one person in the company, that's your hero. And then they tell other people in the company about you. And eventually they decide to give you money and sponsor you. And by the way, stay tuned because I want to tell you how much you can make. So we'll talk about that a little bit later. Uh, but so not asking for enough money is one of the biggest mistakes that people make in the world of sponsorship because they don't take you seriously. And then they have to spend some time with you convince their colleagues about the value that you bring to the company. So that's one mistake, a and then a second mistake, I guess, is just not believing in yourself because when people are just getting started in the world of sponsorships, one of the things that holds them back is why would a sponsor give money to little old me? You know, who the heck am I? And that's what I thought too. I live in Los Angeles. So guess what? I was in a traffic jam and I'm cursing the traffic jam. I'm hot, I'm bothered, I'm tired. But I look up and I see a billboard for Bank of America. And that is another way that you could find sponsors is to monitor the media. If there's some company that's putting a lot of money into media campaigns, take note of that, cause they're more likely to sponsor you. So I see this billboard for bank of America and I said, "Oh my God, what if Bank of America could sponsor me?" Now at this point, it was just an idea in my head, um, that I didn't have any events under my belt. I didn't know if it had legs. I didn't know if people would come. Uh, so I went back to my office and basically what I did was I self-sabotaged. Because I said, "What am I crazy? You know, I'm just a little frizzy here, Jewish girl here in her kitchen. They're not going to take me seriously. Uh, and I'm going to get rejected and I really don't want that." So I buried it for about two, but my passion like yours to help women was so strong that after the two weeks I said, what have I got to lose? Let's let's make a couple of calls. And I did call Bank of America. One person led me to another and uh, I got a guy saying, yeah, come up, come on by. So when I came by to meet them, uh, I wore my one good suit. Uh, I had a car that was more rust than paint and it was embarrassing. So I parked it like two blocks down. So nobody would see that car. And I gave them my proposal. Now, when you meet with your perspective sponsor, don't just bring one proposal. I brought four proposals so he can share it with his colleagues. Thank God. There was a desk between us, cause my knees were knocking. And so he read over my proposal. He said, "Great. We'll we'll sponsor you." And it was a five figure sponsorship, my very first sponsorship. And I had to act like I did this all the time. And then he wanted to shake my hand and my hand was all sweaty. So I had to wipe it on the back of my one good suit, really shake his hand. Uh, and man, when I got back to my car, I did the happy dance and I waived all the Bank of America's on the way home. So I want to illustrate that even if you're just starting out, even if you have no experience, even if you have no following, I didn't even have a following or a fan base at the time I had my parents and my brother-in-law and that was it. If I could have put the cat on there, I would have, so I didn't have a following either, but you can do it because everybody has to start somewhere. Passionistas: What's your advice on the best way to approach prospective sponsors and to muster up that courage to do the big ask? Linda: I think asking for things is especially hard for women because in high school we waited for the cute guy to ask us to the dance. You know, we didn't go up and ask them. So it's kind of been programmed into us from the time where we're young, uh, not to ask for things. So you of kind of get over that the best way to approach a sponsor is by email. They want you to introduce yourself by email because a lot of sponsors have told me, uh, things off the record in the past 20 years. And one of them is that they don't want to be interrupted by a phone call, uh, because they're usually busy with something. They've usually got a boss breathing down their neck. Um, so they want you to introduce yourself by email, uh, and send a couple of emails and then you'll have a conversation with your sponsors. Uh, so that's really the best way Passionistas: We're Amy and Nancy Harrington. And you're listening to the Passionists Project Podcast and our interview with Linda Hollander. To learn more about Linda and how to get sponsors, go to SuccessWithSponsors.com. Now here's more of our interview with Linda. What should be in that sponsor package that you bring with you to the first meeting? Linda: Well, it goes into the sponsor package is a description of what you do and make it brief description. I've seen descriptions that go three, four pages. No, no, no. Remember that it should be easy to skim your sponsor proposal. You want to write the benefits of the sponsorship there. It needs to be benefit rich, or you will not get funded. Uh, and you want to write compelling benefits for the sponsors. Uh, some benefits for the sponsors are email marketing, social media, video marketing, award presentations, press releases, spokespersons work. You could be a spokesperson for a sponsor. You could do contests and all of these benefits that I'm giving you are very low costs. Some are they even no cost, but they have a high perceived value to your sponsor. You want testimonials. If people have given you testimonials, you want to put it there. You want a marketing plan in your sponsor proposal because marketing can make or break whatever you're doing. You don't want to be the best kept secret. So tell your sponsors how you're going to market yourself. How are people going to find out about you? How are people going to read your book or see you speak or come to your event or listen to your show or donate to your nonprofit. So you want that marketing plan in there. Uh, and then lastly, storytelling, the way that we do sponsor proposals that nobody else in the country does is with storytelling. You want your story or the story of somebody that you've helped in that proposal. And I'll tell you why, because a lot of people say, "Oh, well, I'm sending this proposal to a big company and I'm going to fill it with facts and figures" and it becomes dull. It becomes boring. And I want you to stand out from the crowd. So the storytelling creates an emotional connection and it shows the humanity of what you do. I have put in my sponsor proposals that I've been in the poverty trap, that I'd been in an abusive relationship. Uh, so you know, and that that's gotten me sponsors because it's not a faceless corporation. That's going to sponsor you. It is a human being. Who's going to make that decision and human beings make decisions emotionally. Passionistas: You also recommend that people partner with a nonprofit. So what value does that bring to your offering? Linda: It brings a lot of value. Um, most companies now have a social responsibility department because they've realized that cause marketing works and cause marketing CUSC use marketing is so hot that it is absolutely scorching, uh, take Target stores. When you buy from Target stores, they give money to Feeding America. So people feel better about buying at Target and especially the moms feel better about buying at Target. Um, most companies that you're going to see a Subaru has a Share the Love campaign, where if you buy a Subaru, you can choose what charity they're going to to either the Humane Society or Habitat for Humanity or Stand Up to Cancer. They have a few different ones. And people really feel good and really companies want to give back and let people know that they're giving back to the community. Because there's something called the Halo Effect there. Uh, so, uh, and people like to buy from companies that support good causes. Passionistas: You also recommend that people get media partners. So talk about how that works. Linda: You approach them the same as you approach your cash sponsors. So, uh, with a media partner, you're going to send the same proposal to them. Uh, but the media is a little bit different because they do, what's called an in kind sponsorship. Now with an in kind sponsorship. It's a trading of benefits and services. No money changes hands, but they give you a whole lot of value. And it is budget relieving. I had a radio station that was a partner of mine that gave me all kinds of stuff. They gave me 30 second and 60 second commercials and a sponsor spotlight. And, and I was up on their website and you know, it was great because I think they had like a listenership of 75,000 people. Uh, and it is budget relieving because it was probably a $25,000 program. Not a dime came out of my pocket. One day I was driving and I heard my own commercial. That was really surreal. I almost crashed the car, but it was okay. Um, but that's how you get media partners. And I want to talk a little bit about virtual events. Cause a lot of people have been asking me about that. So sponsors will fund a virtual event, but you have to offer them a bigger benefit package. Uh, you don't want to just show their logo, uh, at your virtual event, you want to offer them yearlong benefits, uh, for that event. Uh, and you know, you want to offer a virtual event bag. You want to offer like all of these goodies post-marketing okay. So for an event, there's three phases. There's, pre-marketing, there's a marketing during that event and then there's post event marketing. So the post event sponsorship is after the events over say, "Hey, thanks so much for being on our virtual event. And here's some goodies from our sponsors. We want you to check out." Uh, so you've got to make a pretty complete program for virtual. And the best combination is a virtual event followed by a live event. And I'll tell you why, because the virtual event, you can promote the live event. Uh, and you know, it's kind of a one, two punch. Because a lot of people are going strictly virtual. It's not as valuable to sponsors unless you have the virtual and the live. If you can only do virtual. Great, but tell them that some point in the future, you want to talk about a live event, you know, whether it happens or not. Passionistas: And how do people determine the other benefits that they, they have to offer a sponsor? Linda: It's a real simple answer. You want to ask your sponsor. So the first conversation that you have with your sponsor is a fact finding expedition. You want to make them open up to you. You want to say, Hey, what are your marketing goals? How can I help you achieve them? What are your demographics? What are your upcoming campaigns? When I got FedEx as a sponsor, that's what I did. I talked to him and I said, well, what are you looking for? And you know, he said, well, we don't want a trade show booth. We don't want banners. We don't want signage. And that's what people, most people think sponsorship is. He said, everybody knows FedEx. If we have a trade show booth, they just pick up the little freebies that we have at the booth. And signage does nothing. We want to tell women business owners that we're not the expensive white glove delivery service. And we're very comparable with ups is their, their major competition. Um, so they wanted a speaking opportunity. They wanted an untoward presentation. They wanted press releases. So if I had come to him and said, okay, we're going to offer you a trade show booth and some signage I never would have worked with FedEx. I delved in. And before I went into my presentation, I made sure that I wanted to find out what he wanted and then offer some brilliant solutions. And then the happy ending to that story is that they sponsored me for four years because we were so attentive to what they wanted. Passionistas: How do people use research to strengthen their offering to a sponsor? Linda: It is so much easier now than it ever was before you could do your research very, very quickly. Uh, Google is my best friend and it's probably yours. So you're going to Google the company that you want to be your sponsor. You're going to see their website on their website. You look at their press room. The press room is kind of an interesting thing because it shows how they message the company. It shows the articles about the company. It shows how they want you to perceive their brand. You're going to look at the about us section and then the, the investor relations section. But don't just stop at the website, go to their social media, too, and see what kind of posts they put out there and tweets and see, you know, what's going on on their social media, but I'm telling you, you could do this really, really quickly. Um, and that's the best way to do research about the company. And when you talk to the sponsors, they want to know, they want to know that you've done the research because that means that you are respecting their time. So if they've got a certain program out there, say, "Hey, I see you're promoting this particular program." And they love that. They love when you show that you've really done your homework. Passionistas: So now here's the big question. How do people know how much to ask for? Linda: Oh, this is my favorite. This is my favorite one. Because most people, like I said, no, tortuously undercharge. And then women have a hard time charging a lot of money. So, um, here's what most of our clients get from their sponsors. $10,000, $25,000, $50,000 and a $100,000. Now that is per year and renewable. So let me talk to you about renewals, because remember when I told you that FedEx, uh, you know, sponsored me for four years, that is your, your cash machine is the renewals. If a sponsor likes you, they can sponsor you this year and the next year and the next year. So that's renewables, which are absolutely delicious. And I had a multi-year contracts and renewals with Citibank too. And my clients have had renewals with the Verizon and Dole foods and Black and Decker, just to name a few. Uh, so those are, remember yearly benefits if you're doing an event, okay, don't go event by event because that's how I did it at first. And I realized I was being stupid because I could get a lot more money if I give them benefits for the whole year. Um, and if you do a few events a year bundle the events, even the virtual events, and by the way, semantics are important. So call it a virtual event. Don't call it a webinar. Don't call it Facebook live, you know, because people really expect those things are free. So call it a virtual event if that's what you're doing. Passionistas: What did your mother teach you about women's roles in society when you were growing up? Linda: Oh my God, my mom and I are so different. My mom, when she got married, uh, she worked for a while, but you know, she was a stay at home mom and, you know, she was really, really good at it. Um, and, uh, the only thing was that she was completely dependent on my father. And I saw that growing up and I said, you know what, it's good for their marriage, but it's not how I want my marriage to be. I don't want to be dependent on anybody. And I am. That's kind of what made me very fiercely independent, uh, was seeing my mom. Now, my mom influenced me in some really good ways. Uh, she's an artist and that's where I got my at my art from, and my love of art, my love of beauty, because she had that. And if I have any compassion, if I have any humanity, uh, it is from my mother. And I think the more creative you are, the more successful you are in business. So all of those things, creativity and compassion were gifts from my mother. Passionistas: What's your dream for women? Linda: My dream for women is that we can all respect each other's choices. I told you about my mom and how she chose to be a stay at home. Mom. I respect that. You know, I don't think, you know, people like that are any less than the woman who goes out and works every day and need to be even makes more than her husband and is the, the, the breadwinner for the family. So I think that's where we're moving as women is, you know, just to have good choices. And that's why I'm such a proponent of entrepreneurship because entrepreneurship helps you make good choices. Uh, Oprah Winfrey, you know, she doesn't have to worry about money. She doesn't have to worry about paying the bills so she can work on having schools in Africa and really affecting world change. And it's the same with Melinda Gates and Bill Gates. You know, they don't have to worry about paying their bills every month so they can work on things of a higher nature. And Sara Blakely, two of Spanx who I've talked to. Uh, so that's where I see women's the trajectory of women's success going. Passionistas: Do you think that there's a particular trait that has helped you be successful? Linda: Tenacity. Uh, because you know, um, this is your business. If you can't go through the front door, go through the side window, that's kinda been, uh, my definition of success, uh, you know, and do whatever you can to be successful because it's not just for you, it's for all the people that you're going to help. I mean, you have gifts to give to the world. And if you deny people those gifts, that's the ultimate act of selfishness. Cause I'm not even an outgoing person. I'm very introverted, very shy by nature. And that's what somebody told me. They said, you know, I see you go to a party or an event. You don't really talk to people and you're being selfish because you're denying them all the gifts that you have that can help them. So don't think of it as just for you. Think of it. As you know, for transforming the world. When I was doing the women's small business expo, women met their perfect business partners there, and women got the pieces of the puzzle that they needed to create their own multi-million dollar businesses. And on my deathbed, I will be so proud of the work that I did. And it was all because of sponsors. Passionistas: Linda, you mentioned to us that you wanted to make an offer to our listeners. Linda: I want to give a gift to the listeners. They can get the number one secret to getting sponsors. If they go to SuccessWithSponsors.com. So it's SuccessWithSponsors.com. Also, if you go to SuccessWithSponsors.com, you can make an appointment to talk with me personally, I do free sponsor strategy sessions. So I will look at what you're doing. We'll work on your winning proposal and we'll work on your success strategy for getting your sponsors. Passionistas: And seriously, ladies, if you are listening to this and you are even remotely considering whether to do this or not do it, we cannot recommend Linda strongly enough. She is amazing. She's absolutely amazing. Thanks for listening to the Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Linda Hollander. To learn more about Linda and to receive your free gift, go to SuccessWithSponsors.com. Please visit The Passionistas ProjectProject.com to learn more about our podcast and subscription box filled with products made by women owned businesses and female artisans to inspire you to follow your passions. Sign up for our mailing list, to get 10% off your first purchase and be sure to subscribe to the Passionistas Project Podcast. So you don't miss any of our upcoming inspiring guests.

Rita Reimers is the founder of Just for Cats, a company that has been providing cat behavior services and cats-only pet-sitting for the last 18 years. She's the world's most in demand cat behaviorist and has written a new book called The Lucky Cat Approach to Cat Behavior Correction, which will give people the knowledge and tools to better understand and develop a deep bond with their cats. She is joined by her Executive Director Linda Hall who worked with health and fitness guru Richard Simmons for 17 years, where she met Rita. When Richard retired Linda joined Just for Cats. Learn more about Rita. Learn more about The Passionistas Project. Full Transcript: Passionistas: Hi and welcome to the Passionistas Project Podcast. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and today we're talking with Rita Reimers and Linda Hall of Just for Cats, a company that has been providing cat behavior services and cat-only pet sitting for the last 18 years. Rita, the world's most in demand cat behaviorist, has written a new book called "The Lucky Cat Approach to Cat Behavior Correction," which will give people the knowledge and tools to better understand and develop a deep bond with their cats. Rita also writes a hugely popular cat behavior help and advice column called "A New Cattitude" which answers questions through her membership only group Club Cattitude and is launching a new line of USA-made cat toys and bedding called Gracie and Esther. Linda worked with health and fitness guru Richard Simmons for 17 years, which is where she met Rita. Linda was Richard's customer service manager on his website — working with site visitors, posting content and participating in chats. When Richard retired, Linda joined just for cats as executive director. So please welcome to the show, Rita Reimers at Linda Hall. Rita: Great. Thank you so much for having us. Passionistas: Oh, I'm so glad I am exhausted just reading that intro. Rita: But we love it. I've dedicated my life to cats. I left a six figure salary job to start over from scratch. It's actually 18 years now. Um, I left corporate America about 15 years ago, but the first three I did was doing both cat sitting and cat behavior counseling. Actually three things. I was still in corporate America and working for Richard Simmons all at the same time. And I thought, how can I make my life harder? I know I'll quit the job that makes all the money and I've not looked back. I've not looked back since I'm, I'm very blessed. Passionistas: We like to ask our very first question on both of you is, and I think we know the answer, but what are you most passionate about? Rita: Cats. Keeping cats more than that. Keeping cats in people's homes. Helping somebody with a behavior issue that may have meant the cat. What's going to end up being surrendered if we didn't fix it? Linda: Yes. Cats are so often misunderstood. You know, dogs are so, they're just dogs. They're in their way. Tail is wagging and you hopefully know, I mean there are constant speech bubbles over dogs hands, right? Take you for a walk. Feed me. Cats are so much more complicated than that and the signs are so much less obvious. And Rita has really taught people how to read their cats behaviors, how to read their moods. Um, I can tell now by the way, the tail is curled that he's curious. Blinky eyes means I love you. I mean this whole language that exists and understanding the cats and in solving some problems, there are relatively small problems, which seem really big when you're dealing with it. Like your cat urinating on your bed every night. This gets really big. Rita: That's a big problem. Linda: People rehomed their cats over it and it may just be that her litter box, they had just changed litter. The cat liked the letter. So I started. So they changed back and it was all better and things like this. And of course some problems are a lot more complicated than that, but I've seen people on the verge of rehoming their cats that then Rita has spoken to them and given them answers. And these cats can stay home and safe. And that's huge. I mean that's just, I can't think of anything bigger than that than saving lives and keeping families. Rita: I agree. I agree. That's what it's all about. Saving lives. Yes. Passionistas: So where does this love of cats come from? Rita: I think I was born with it. Um, I was given a cat when I was eight years old. We couldn't keep it cause my dad was allergic. Um, but I always felt this affinity towards cats since I was, you know, like two years old. I'd go near a cat. My mom would say, don't put your face near him. And I'd say, I have a cat. He understands. I made my cat, my mom dressed me as a cat, every holiday, um, every, uh, trick or treat Halloween. Thank you. Um, and then my dad had an aunt, my great aunt Chesser who lived in the country and I think she was the original cat person in our family. She did TNR, trap, neuter, release before it was a thing. She fed all the outdoor cats. A few of them became tame and became her pets, but we would, various members of the family go down to Smithville Falx, New York and help her get the kitties and to the vet to be spayed and neutered. Um, I just fell in love with cats then I think. Passionistas: How about you Linda? Linda: Uh, yeah, I didn't have cats, like Rita, Rita, Stan was allergic. It was my mom. So we had dogs and I love animals and I love having a pet, but you know that in your face stuff is a little much for me sometimes. Plus taking them outside again, I live where there's snow. It's just not my thing. And so when I got a cat it was like this, this is my, this is my match, this is my soul animal, this is my match. And then, you know, as we got more and found all the differences in cats and, and brought more into the house, it just, it's amazing the things you learn and the feeling. Yeah. And it's just, it's indescribable. I just, I don't know. It's in my soul. Rita: Well, to make you earn their love, I always say a dog will love you until you give them a reason not to, but account won't love you until you give them a reason to love you. Linda: That's true. Passionistas: I love that. So tell us a little bit about your journey separately towards working together. Rita: Um, well Linda first started working for Richard Simmons way before I did. Um, so Linda, do you want to talk about what you did for and why I snagged you for my company? Linda: Yeah, I worked for him for 17 and a half years before he officially retired and I started out working as a typing angel, helping him to get his responses to people out, did some infomercials with and worked on some infomercials. We got to do a lot of fun stuff with him. And then I went into managing his clubhouse. So when he retired and Rita was thinking about starting up a cat club house so that people can have more access to her and her behavior, how she called me and she said, I heard Richard's retiring and you're losing your job. And I said, yes, I'm so stressed. And she said, lack of work for me. Yes, please. Rita: No, I needed your skill set. And I knew Linda through Richard Simmons and the clubhouse plus I, uh, produced radios, uh, Richard's radio show on Sirius for three years. It was a live call in radio show three hours every Sunday. Um, so I got my cred of working for Richard. So the other people that worked for Richard Simmons knew I was a genuine, you know, person and not just someone trying to get close to Richard. Um, so Linda and I started developing a friendship. Um, I moved back to the Carolinas from LA and right away I was so fortunate to be offered the opportunity to do some videos for Catster magazine. And the producer of the videos happened to be right here in Charlotte because I said, darn, I can't do it. I just left LA and they're like, well, you know what, the producers are in Charlotte five miles away from me. So I started doing those videos, uh, there actually for a website at the time called Pecha that's now owned by chewy. Everything's been changed around a little bit. And through that, um, Catster offered me the New Cattitude column right around the time I was wanting to launch the clubhouse. And Linda became free and she had been coming to me for cat advice anyway as her cat family was growing. And I knew she had the skill set to help me make a success of this clubhouse. And the reason I'm doing the clubhouses, you know, not everybody can afford a personal cat behavior session. Plus I'm in, just outside of Charlotte, North Carolina. I can't be everywhere. I can't go everywhere, reach everyone. Um, and not everyone can afford that anyway. So I wanted to have a clubhouse where people can have a community of other likeminded people or other people who've had similar problems and access to me and my staff. Um, so they can come to us for cat behavior help, funny stories. Some camaraderie with each other. We've got some awesome sponsors with some great prizes from, um, Litter Genie, uh, Pretty Litter, Catster magazine of course. Um, and then, uh, the Cat Lady Box came aboard and oddly enough Spanglers candy, which that's good too. Doesn't love candy. Um, they were originally going to be sponsoring our Catstitute Cruise, but we can't do that right now with the COVID 19. So the clubhouse is even more important for people to join. We actually just cut the price in half. It was $19 a month. It's now $9.95 a month because I want everyone to be able to afford to have a cat behaviorist in their toolbox when they have a problem. Come to me, come to the clubhouse, come to the people there. Come to Linda who has eight cata and a dog. Um, Nikki and Sebastian, a married couple who have five cats. Um, we all know cats. Right. And what fun. It's fun to giving away. Linda: Yes. Yes, yes. Well, when we took the clubhouse, she was saying, you know, with Covdshould we offer a month free or something? Everybody's struggling. People are off work. So we decided to do a $1 for the first month and the dollar is going until June. We're donating it to a local rescue here in Ohio, Friends of Felines. And then after that we'll switch to another rescue so that you can get a month for a dollar and you're donating the dollar to a rescue. So rescues are in trouble right now. So yeah. Passionistas: Rita, you were saying that you had a six figure career. It's one thing to love cats and want to have a lot of cats. It's another thing to decide to make it your career. So what inspired you to do this full time? Rita: Well, I had a very successful career in information technology. I was somewhat of a hybrid between the tech people and the business people. And I was good at my job, but honestly I was bored. Mmm. My last position was with a nonprofit organization that's awesome, called the California Endowment, but by and large, my career has been spent working for companies, making the people up at the top, rich, not contributing anything much to society. And then doing pet sitting on the side, at the time I did both cats and dogs, seeing what some of these animals go through. Linda: Um, and then volunteering for rescues. Really getting a look firsthand at how many animals needlessly wind up in the shelters, let alone the ones that are born because people don't span neuter. Mmm. I knew I had to change the focus of my life and with the cat sitting, that was the first start, you know, towards getting into people's homes, getting people's ear, you know, having them trust me as a cat expert and listen to what I had to say if they came to me for advice. You know, I had to be very careful because someone came coming to me for pet-sitting cats and didn't necessarily want advice, but if they asked, they got it, you know, or if I, thought that something was really a miss and had to be addressed. No, I find a way to bring it up subtly. Uh, I know it was so much more rewarding even though at first it didn't pay well. It still doesn't really pay anywhere near what I was making. I don't care. I'm happier. And I want to leave a legacy behind of, um, having more people understand cat behavior. A goal of mine and Linda's is to go into the schools and teach children at a young age about appropriate behavior with all kinds of pets, not just cats, but cats tend to be the ones that get picked on a lot by children who really don't understand animals have the same heart, soul and feelings that we do. Um, I don't have children, so I'm looking to lend us children to carry on the legacy. When she and I and her husband, Brian, are no longer here. I want to leave something behind that. It makes a positive dent in cats lives and the lives of their owners, owners. I hate to use that word. We don't really own the cat. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And that's another reason we're looking at launching this. USA-made pet Caroline too. Um, something that I've been talking about doing for years. I've seen the tide change. People want more USA-made products. Um, so Linda and I right now we're working on um, catnip and cat toys, a spray catnip that's made from homegrown organic cotton grown in defiance, Ohio. And some cat toys that have this organic catnip in them don't have any loose. You know, sometimes you'll see little whiskers, a little eyes on the toys and you know, cats can eat those, swallow them, choke on them. So, um, Linda and Nicki, her, her daughter who works for us hand so's everyone by hand. Of course when we make it big, we'll have to go into a manufacturing situation, but we make them in such a way that even if the cat was to chew on the thread, somehow it won't come apart. Linda, talk about that a little bit. Linda: Yeah, I, so about an inch and then I back up and go forward. And so an inch, so if at any point it comes, and this, this was quite an eye opening thing that Rita taught me, you know, we buy toys that are cute and attractive to us, right? Googly eyes, your cat couldn't care less about that space or go go. They just want the toy. And we had, I remember we had a booking for when we had the cat sitting business and the lady called and said her cat was an emergency stomach surgery. He had ripped open his toy and eaten insides, weaker jingle bell or whatever and it was lodged in his intestine, emergency surgery, darn near die. You know, you don't think about this stuff. You just assume anything you buy is safe. And then you know, some of the materials have a lot of dyes on them. You see it water bowl and then your water bowl turns blue. Your cat slobbering on this is all very, very scary. So you know, you don't need tails and Danglies and, and you know your cat just monster. Rita: The thing is if it's shaped like a mouse or a square or something round, they don't care. I'm like little mice just for the owner. Exactly. Linda: But yeah, no eyes, no jingle bells sticking on them, nothing like that. And yeah, sewing and stopping and sewing and stopping because that was another thing. String causing obstruction or they can um, get it tangled around their neck. So this way, the most they're going to unravel is about an inch at a time. So they'll be separate pieces. So yeah. Rita: And why are we called Gracie and Esther? Linda: Gracie and Esther are our alternate personalities. You were any pet sitting conference and Rita gets these colds or whatever sinus thing and she can't hear. And what exactly, it's really fun sharing a hotel room with her because you say something and, and you'll hear, I think you said something, but I have no idea what it was or so one point I was just tired and loopy and said, Esther put your hearing aid and you can't hear a thing. It's so this just became this thing. Rita: Then her daughter became little girl. Linda: It just kind of took off on its own. So we decided that was a cute name to brand our business. Rita: It'll be just for cats by Gracie and Esther. Linda: Gracie and Esther. Rita: You gotta laugh. That's the other thing. You know, we laugh a lot. I didn't laugh in the corporate world, you know, we laugh a lot, even though we see some tragic things, you know, wait, we try to end the day on some kind of humorous note. My cats make me laugh all the time. I know Linda's yours do too.   Linda: We've learned to laugh at everything. Best thing on earth is to be talking to Rita and have her come out and tear you out. Who did that? You know, as she steps in that pilot bar for whatever. So I finally told her one day, this is the epitaph that's going on your gravestone. Who did that? Rita: Cause I'm a behaviorist. My cats are not perfect. I have 19 I just don't have the fighting or any of that. They get along well sometimes. But you know, I have little jealousy issues. I sometimes have pee pee on the floor accidents or you know, whenever they have a hairball, they're not going to do it on my wood floor. They're going to do it on my big area rug. Right, or the sofa or the bed. Yeah, there was like three nights in a row. This week I slept on the sofa because my two shy cats that are a little bit, yeah. Skiddish where on my bed? On my pillow, on my side and I'm like, I can't disturb them for three nights.   Linda:… gave up the bed one night and tried to go to the couch and they were mauling her and I got this text in the middle of the night. I'm just going to sleep on the floor in my office. Rita: So I went upstairs into their bedroom. I slept on it one of the nights, but you know, 10 of them found me. Unbelievable. Linda: Everyone the key to me, you know, it sounds crazy having 19 cats read and did not go to a shelter and decide no. Her cat house with 19 cats. I can find me. The key to Rita is send her a picture of a cat with the soulful eyes, you know, looking right into the camera and then tell her the story about how it's got a dangling leg or it's unadoptable or it's going to be euthanized. And she will be in the car and go get that kid. Rita: I've got one just three minutes before we went on the air. I can't do it. I can't take it anymore. I can't. So I CC'd my mom, who runs the humane society of Lancaster, South Carolina, and I said, can you get photos? Can you, can you shop this around on your web, on your internet, on your website, on your Facebook? I can't take anymore. 20 is max? That doesn't mean I have an opening at night. An empty spot. We're perfect right now. The last two that I adopted were kittens. I didn't mean to adopt them, but of course, you know, a friend of mine found an orange kitchen and she had 12 cats and she's like, I know this kitten's yours. I know you love orange kitties. I took the kitten and he was great. He was getting along with my adult cats but were going nuts cause he was hyperactive so I purposefully went out and got this last kitten Sweetie Pie and the two of them are best buddies since she's kind of my heart cat now. I'm glad I went and got her, but she's the only cat I ever went and got on purpose and I'm done. No more. Passionistas: You're listening to the Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Rita Reimers and Linda Hall. During the month of June, Rita is offering cat lovers the first month's membership to Club Cattistude for only $1. She's also donating that dollar directly to Friends of Felines Rescue Center in Defiance, Ohio. To join visit RitaReimers.com/joinclubcattitude and use the discount code HELPFFRC to donate to Friends of Felines Rescue Center. Now here's more of our interview with Rita and Linda. Why do you think people who like cats are so open to having so many cats? Rita: Well I know what happened to Linda. It would probably help us to a lot of people. You go out and you adopt cat and you think, I want this wonderful lap cat. I want this cat to love me and sit with me. And you know, maybe you don't end up with that kind of cat and then you already have, then you start thinking, well how would I want to be the only cat in a house full of people? I should get one more. Everybody says it's easier with two, I should get one more. So you go get one more. Maybe those two get along. Maybe they don't. And you still don't get your laptop. You sit on the sofa at night and you're like, okay, I got to get another one. But then what happens is the rescue or shelter, they got your pegged and they're like, Oh, that's a sucker. So then, then she had went public and I know this happened to Linda and Brian. Linda, we just took in this cat. Oh yes, we have to find out a home. This was latte, right? Do you want to tell the story? Linda: Latte had been born in the rescue. I went and started with my daughter who needed a cat fix. So she wanted to volunteer at this, at the local rescue friends of felines, and, but she was under 16 so she needed an adult to go with her. Fine. I'm just going to sit and watch the cats. Right. So of course I fall in love when we come home and my husband has decided he hates cats, which I guarantee you, he's sitting in a chair of the cat in his lap right now. Guaranteed. So it didn't stick. So now he hates cats. No cats, no cats. So then finally it's all right. One can't go get super that you keep. So I went and got super, and then it's like, you know, everybody says you need to. So okay. So we went and we got back and then we went to this fall festival and the owner was selling things to raise money for her rescue. I was just thinking of you. She says this mama cat had had these babies, her name was Java. They got all got coffee names. They were all adopted out for some reason. Latte's Parents had to move lattes, lived in a home for a few years and Oh shoot, I just don't want to put her back at the rest. We went and got the cat. But you know, I find being a former dog person, when you sit down on the couch, your dog is jumping up with you. I had three cats was looking around. Where's the cats? You know, they're laying in the, I mean I have eight cats. All I can see one laying in the window right now, but nobody's in this bedroom with me right now. So you gotta have more to have interaction all the time Rita: They don't need as much focused energy and attention as a dog. So you can have I think three cops to one dog. Yeah. Still not be expanding the amount of energy it takes to take care of a dog. I love dogs. But they just, they were require more constant energy. Passionistas: So tell us a little bit about the book, Rita. Rita: "The Lucky Cat Approach," I'm working on that one right now. And that is based on, um, what I've learned from doing some cat behavior sessions with people. Um, I remember one session I did with this couple and they, they adopted this cat and the wife really wanted to keep the cat but he kept attacking the husband. I want to go out there to do the session. This is kind of sad. He was kind of treating the cat like people used to treat dogs with the rolled of newspaper, smacking it over the head. Well the cat would get, you know, bite him or nip at him cause he was trying to play cause he was never raised right. He was raised in a shelter. He didn't know what it was like to be in a home and the guy would yell at the dog or the cat and knock it on the nose and then wonder why when he went near the cat, the cat lunged at him. Okay. So I had to teach him. Let me, let me call it up on my other computer so that I tell you exactly the acronym correctly. Mmm. It's really all this will spell lucky cat. It's about loving your cat unconditionally, just the way he is. And understanding your cat's point of view on life and his unique capabilities, which means, you know, you may want a lap cat, you might not be a lap cat cause you don't know when he went through before he got to you. Right. I have one Picasso. She was very neglected. She wasn't really abused, she was just neglected. And she'll come to me when she's scared of something I thought were strong or what have you. She'll come to me and let me Pat her. I could scratch her under the chin, behind the ear with whatever. Other than that, I can't really touch her because she is not used to that. So I have to accept that that is her capability. That's the level of interaction she can accept. And that's it. I can't turn her into a lap cat like my Simba. Um, and you've got to communicate with your cat every day. Some people don't bring a cat home though. I care. I have a cat. They put it down and that's it. They never interact with it again. They expect the cat to come to them when it needs something. That's not how it works. You've got to communicate, you've got to seek out your cat every day. Mmm. And you've gotta be kind to your cat because that's what strengthens the bond between, right. If you're treating it like that man who was, you know, smacking the cat for not acting right. Or even the water bottle. I don't really believe in the water bottle. You know, your cat is going to start being afraid of you. That's going to cause all kinds of anxiety and behavior issues. Maybe you can't even solve them because the cat becomes some petrified of people ends up in the shelter and get euthanized. Right. So, you know, you've gotta be an active participant in molding your cat's personality. You can't just have them sit under the bed and be an aloof cat. You know, you've got to actively participate in drawing them out with toys and treats sitting by him, reading to, you know, showing him you're not going to hurt him. Mmm. Consistency is really the key to making it all work and the amount of tension and time you spend with your cats is critical to keeping that bond between you. So you have a cat, you know you've been paying attention to forever or you're, your daughter has been instrumental in this cat's daily life and then she goes off to college. Well somebody who's going to have to fill in, you can't just let that cat sit there cause he'll start to revert to his natural tendencies to be aloof. It's scared of people because um, the most important thing that people need to know about cats I think is that they're both predator and prey. Unlike dogs, their constant life is spent in a hypervigilant state waiting for something to have them for dinner. Okay. They are wither hunted or being hunted. So yeah, that's why cats get so startled when there's noises, when there's new smells in the household. That's why when somebody comes to your door, most cats will take off running to hide because their first instinct is self preservation. And you have to know that and that that's really what drives us 95% of what your cats do. Oh, Not a lot of people do realize that. You know. And another thing too is like we, we went out and we domesticated dogs. We turned them into working dogs and we bred them and made different types of dogs. Cat's decided to come to us. They domesticated themselves. They started coming to our, you know, many thousands of years ago to our, our camps, you know, to take the little scraps of food to eat the mice that were attracted by our food and slowly, you know, worm their way into our hearts. Cause if you look at kitten or even a full grown cat, look at their face, a lot of it resembles a human face. Their cry sounds like a baby cry. Okay. It gets right into our hearts. But they decided to become part of our lives. We didn't go out and domesticate them. So our relationship with cuts is a lot more fragile than it is with dogs. Passionistas: That's so interesting. Um, you, um, you also have a, um, cat behavior and help advice column called "A New Cattitude,” which I love, love that name. Um, is there, are, you know, is there one or two stories, are there one or two stories that stand out to you from your years of doing that, that kind of resonate with you? Some of your favorites are some of the more challenging questions you've been asked? Rita: I think, um, biggest challenge that I, I hate to pick on people that I know, but it just happens to be Linda's daughter and son-in-law when they were engaged to be married. And Sebastian and NICU moved in together to say, go for the wedding. She had two cats and I'll did he on tartar harder to not, he's a momma's cat. He did not like Sebastian at all. He would swipe at and his Adam and they didn't know what they were going to do. So I suggested make Sebastian the one that does the feeding, make him be the one that gives the treats, you know, make him be the one that puts the food down at night and talks to him. Slowly but surely they forged a relationship and I think he can even pet tiger now. Am I right Linda? Linda: Yeah, tight tigers. A cranky old man. That's, we just call him the grumpy old man and he even scares that tax not to need a lot of vet techs. Hand ones. You just see him with Nikki. He's like such a loving, wonderful kid. And then anybody else, it's like watch your face. He's not an ego. So he's, I don't think he's in love with Sebastian, but he tolerates Sebastian and Sebastian is allowed to sleep with his wife and that is a very good outcome. It's luck. It's, they're allowed to share a bed cause he wouldn't have and he'd wedge in between them and he'd growl and his like, the wedding's off. Tiger doesn't like me. Rita: That's an important factor though. I mean if your pets don't like your spouse, that's bad. Really bad. I think another one is I went to this behavior session here in Charlotte and they have three cats each living in a separate room and I said to them, How long have you been been in this situation? You know, two or three years. You can't live like that, but they were hesitant to do the introduction too because of course it looks like what children, they're not going to love each other at first. A few merge a husband and wife like a Brady Bunch, and you merge human children. There's going to be a resistance. Just like with cats. What are you going to do separate them? Your kids live on this side of the house and live on the side of the house. When they move out, we can get back together. There's ways to work through the painful process. Most often the posturing and the noise you hear when you're introducing cats to each other or even to a dog, it's noise, you know? Very seldom do you really see physical fighting and blood. That's very rare, but people, you know, it hurts them to see that. So they'd rather live with their cats all separated forever or they'd go through that pain. Linda: 90% of the time it's just bark. Like kids fighting with each other. Rita: Yeah, right, exactly. Even my cat that love each other, pinky and booboo, brother, sister love each other. Booboo gets a wild hair and he'll just decide to antagonize his sister and she'll yell at him and know she's like, what's going on in the background? Just pink and verbose. I don't even get up anymore. I think me teaching people that, that's just, you know, it's a temporary painful hatch they have to go through and it's much worse for them than it is for the cats. The cats, they either love each other or they learn to be respectful, be distinct from each other. Passionistas: Have you found a new behavioral issues arising during this time of COVID 19 and if you had tips for people about how to deal with the togetherness? Rita: Yeah. You know, at first, if you don't work at home and you're at home, you're interrupting your cats sleeping period. Usually they're sleeping during the day. They're like, why are you here? Get out of my, get off my sofa. I want to slip there. You know? Then after a while they're used to being there. Mmm. Then you're going to go back to work and they're going to go through separation anxiety. They're like, why aren't you there? I used to be on there at my Beck and call. I could lie on you whenever I want. Um, so I always suggest that people do what I'm doing right now. I shut myself in my office. There's no cats in here. Let them have some time. Apart from you, let them have their routine. You know, they're looking at, they're making a new routine. Cats don't like change. You disrupted their routine by being at home. Now you have to make a new routine, which I think includes having them be on their own and having you be in a separate room or go outside for a walk or do something to be apart from them. Um, so I noticed that I have a cat that's very attached to me. Smoochy I've had her since she was four weeks. She's three legged. She's always been extremely attached to me, but it's getting worse. Mmm. She's practically under my rear end when I sleep on it. When I sit on the sofa, I sleep all the stuff I want. I sit on the sofa and she started like lunging and parking at the other cats when they come near me. So I have to consciously make sure I get up here for a few hours every day. And that seems to be, make her relax a little bit, not be quite so anxious that she's got to be right up against me every moment of the day. Um, and the other thing I think that's important is cultivating this routine around, um, what I call the four PEGS of cat behavior. There's four basic behaviors that cats do every day to ensure their survival. One of them is they hunt for Prey. That's the P. We may make that by playing with them. So really take a wild type toy or something. You can make them chase around, mimic that they're hunting, let them catch it and then feed them. That's the E in the pigs is they eat, they'll eat their dinner or breakfast and then right away count's instinct is to groom and they do this cause out of nature. They want to get all the particles of remnants of their kill off of them so that their predators cap find them. Yeah, fine. Aren't attracted by the smell of the prey. And so they won't become someone's dinner. And then lastly they're going to go to sleep. That's pegs. So I always suggest people, even when they're home, practice those morning and night, because in the morning you're going to do play, eat, groom, sleep. You're going to go off to work, so sleeping or you're going to be up in your office or what have you. And then at night I'm going to do it again. So I always do it really, you know, maybe an hour or so before I want to go to bed. I do play, eat grim sleep, so they're ready to sleep when I'm ready to sleep. And that way they won't tend to wake you up at three o'clock in the morning when they have you captive and they want to expend that energy. You've already done that by doing PEGS and whatever other antics you might do with them during the middle of the day. Passionistas: Is this a good time for people to adopt a cat as far as you're concerned? Rita: I would say so. Um, because you're home, you're able to bond with the cat, especially if you've got introductions to do with other cats or dogs. Um, or children in the household. Um, I know some facilities they are doing video pre adoption screening. Um, so when you go to the shelter or rescue, you know, you get to see the cat that you've been talking about seeing on the video or what have you. Cause too, they're trying to cut down on their, you know, exposure to people as well. So it's not like you can go and walk through the shelters or rescues like you could before I know the shelter, her leg, Castro hasn't even been open. The rescues are, um, I know FFRC they're doing some of that, Linda, it's not what Jack had. Linda: I just talked to Jackie yesterday and she said it's, it's exhausting. This woman, she's don't, she's just given her life to, that's in her own way and has built this rescue onto her home and it keeps building and she's all about the cats. She's up early, she's up late. Well they have a webcam. So for one thing people can watch a cat and be like, Oh, I love that cat. But you know, often you, you decide, Oh this cat and then you get there and the cats really aloof and not your cat. So she's taking appointments and she's got thumpers room that she can let the cats and people interact one at a time and then they leave and they scrub everything down and disinfect it and then they take the next one. And so it's exhasuting , but it's kitten season and you know, they're getting full, they need help. Rita: So, and I know she's lost a lot of volunteers due to COVID. And the fear of growing, this is the backbone of what runs our rescues. So it's quite a detail deal, but they're making it work. Well you talked to a lot of places need fosters now because it's getting season. So they need people to hold onto the cats and socialize them. Maybe not adopt them, but, um, they need places to put all these kids. That's always a need. But I think it's more so now. Passionistas: So what's the most rewarding part of what you do? Rita: I am so blessed that I get to make money doing what I love. Um, and at night when I sit down to unwind, watch TV, I have all this unconditional love around me and I have so many people that support me. I didn't know were in my corner. Um, like I won't say her name, but she knows who she is, who hooked me up with my PR firm and my, my manager who believes in what I do so much. He's working pro bono right now and he's a big name. Um, you have support sometimes where you don't even know you have it. And once I started really being open about how many cats, what I do, it's, I'm just amazed. People that I knew from high school. I'm getting support from, I'm working with, um, somebody now who makes jewelry and I knew her in high school and her brother was actually in a Richard Simmons video. I grew up with him too. So everything converging it together. She's selling the jewelry to support animal rescue. She's a big animal rescue person. So we're going to write an article about her. So it's like people from all the aspects of my life are coming back into my life. It's amazing to me how many people care about animals. Linda: Well, I absolutely can't imagine read it. If there was a number out there somewhere of cats that have not gone to a shelter because of you. I mean, I'm not talking about the 19 you've rescued that, that alone. Well, plus, I mean the cats have come and gone in your life, but how many times somebody has just been, this is it. I can't do it anymore. And I'm going to, and then you help them find a solution and that cat gets to stay in the home. That's money. Rita: And one of our Richard Simmons friends, Wendy a cat, came up to her door. She'd never had a cat before, largely because I was able to answer questions from her. She kept this cat smokey Simone who passed away recently. She was heartbroken, but I helped her, you know, just, just answering a few questions and encouraging her that, you know, cats need love just like dogs do. It's just in a different way. Passionistas: What's your secret to a rewarding life? Rita: I think loving what you do for a living. I'm one of those people that whatever I do for a living, it kind of becomes my life. When I was in information technology, it was a big, huge part of my life. Um, uh, it's kind of my identity. Uh, to me it works. You know, I have to be happy in my work and have it be fulfilling and fit in with my lifestyle. Yeah. Linda: If you can feel good about what you're doing, which isn't not, I mean like all jobs are necessary. I'm going to get really upset if everybody leaves burger King because I crave a Whopper every once in a while. This is rewarding stuff. But when you have put yourself, you know, working for Richard, I was helping people and support them and getting a healthy lifestyle and answering their questions and that was just, that was a high. And when he was here I was like, I don't know that I can go just work behind a desk and answer phones. I know I'm helping someone, but this was such an onboard and now here I am in this, you know, cat versus weight loss, but still a passion and helping people. That's huge. And if you know that your life has mattered and you help people, that's yeah, that's worth a lot more than money or anything. Passionistas: Thanks for listening to our interview with Rita Ramers and Linda Hall. During the month of June, Rita is offering cat lovers the first month membership to Club Cattitude for only $1. She's also donating that dollar directly to Friends of Felines Rescue Center in Defiance, Ohio. To join, visit RitaReimers.com/joinclubcatittude and use the discount code HELPFFRC to donate to the Friends of Felines Rescue Center. Please visit ThePassionistasProject.com to learn more about our podcast and subscription box filled with products made by women owned businesses and female artisans to inspire you to follow your passions. Sign up for our mailing list to get 10% off your first purchase. And be sure to subscribe to the Passionistas Project Podcast so you don't miss any of our upcoming inspiring guests.

"I was right! I needed to get home. I had me Tuborg, and safely stored in the wank-bank; the vision of Lisa Gansella’s teenage breasts to take home with me. And what’s the story with my stolen library book? Dirty bitch! Anyway, fuck that. I was going to sleep for a week and be back in time for the next Monday club and invite the lads for my free spice burgers from Dolly Stelfark’s chipper. But then there came Linda. Who is Linda? Well, nearly pinning me up against the wall with her oversized jeep, this Linda was my teenagehood ex-girlfriend-now chunky monkey mother-of-three. Yeah, THAT Linda.""I wasn't getting better! Stomach tore out of me, floods of snot out me nose, I needed another round of Falconhorst tablets before I carked it. I didn't care if I overdosed. I just needed more! Good ol' Cottle got on the phone to Broadleaf O'Hara at the factory again.""Soooo, Panda Doll not Panadol... a mix-up of packages. The dumb bitch at reception Rachel Stakkum COULD spell. She gave me animal pheromones. What had she done to me? What was I swallowing all this time? Sure I wasn't to know yet was I? I'd find out quare and quick however, Rachel was on the way to deliver me the proper medicine... And on the day of the start of the community games and all! I tell ya, I went hard at my free Tuborg in me flat after that!""Cottle's Mother, she wasn't a looker, but when she was young around town with the tight skirts, heads would turn. And I remember those swimming lessons too. Far too young to get the rise tho'. Trouble is, 30 years later she was still punching the flab into her tiny leather skirts. Eyes to the sky, don't get the rise! She's bendin' down to fix her ankle straps!""I couldn’t! I couldn’t! Could I? NO! I couldn’t! I had a bet! Free beer and Dolly’s Spice Burgers! And I was sick! But she was gorgeous, half my age. She brought me free medicine and was now naked. In my shower! What would you do?!! Hah? I nearly drove the table through the wall with the bad thoughts…"Mount Pheasant I is an Amplevoicepod ear-film production. We script fully immersive HD audio adventures. More than just a podcast, we are the Voice of Pod. Join us, follow, subscribe and like.

Pasta, Pretty PleaseBy Linda Miller Nicholson Intro: Welcome to the cookery by the book podcast with Suzy Chase. She's just a home cook in New York City, sitting at her dining room table, talking to cookbook authors.Linda: Hi, my name is Linda Miller Nicholson of Salty Seattle, and my new cookbook is called Pasta, Pretty Please. In it, I have hundreds of recipes for beautiful colorful pasta dough, and I make all of the doughs using vegetables, herbs, and super foods.Suzy Chase: Your homemade, naturally dyed pasta comes in an amazing array of rainbow colors, shapes, and designs. How did you get started making this unique pasta?Linda: Well, I've been making pasta since I was four years old. It was something that really resonated with me when my grandparents taught me, using nothing more than a rolling pin and my little four year old muscle. It was really something that has followed me through my entire life, and when my son was about the same age as I was when I learned to make pasta, he went through that inevitable picky phase that all kids go through, and would not eat his vegetables. I was just tearing my hair out, trying to figure out what to do to get this kid to eat his vegetables. If I were to tuck spinach under the cheese on a cheese pizza, he would detect it right away, like a truffle pig, and just ferret it out of there, and get rid of it or, you know, green smoothies forget it. And so, refined white carbs was just what this kid lived on, and even if they were organic and made by mom, I still kind of felt that little bit of guilt. I decided, "Well, you know what, I make pasta all day every day. Why don't I just puree the vegetable ingredient with the eggs, and color the pasta that way?" knowing that he would eat pasta. The rest really has turned into this beautiful colorful career that I have now, because he, he bit it hook, line, and sinker. For me, just knowing that I have this peace of mind of, "Okay, he's eating a cup and a half of noodles. He also secretly eating a cup and a half of spinach with that," or turmeric with that, or parsley, or beets. At this point he's 10, and he's well aware of what happened when he was younger, and he knows what all the colors come from, and he actually started to embrace some of the vegetables that composed the colors of pasta dough. But I think it's really cool that I have this sort of longtime family history with pasta, and then bringing it back to my progeny, into the next generation. It all sort of ties in and I was able to make my career out of something so a rooted in family.Suzy Chase: You are the first pasta ninja I've ever talked to. How is pasta like textile to you?Linda: Well, first of all, pasta ninja is not a thing I came up with, that was Harry Connick Jr. He decided that that would be my moniker and it has stuck ever since. I don't know that I necessarily have ninja-like quality with the pasta. I mean, I can't like scale walls with it or anything, so I suppose I could put that on my bucket list to try. Pasta sort of transcends food for me, and really moves into this form of artistic expression that is very similar to patterns that you might be able to achieve if you worked in textiles, so in fabrics and in patterns that, that exist on cloth. I think I realized that the first time when I was sheeting out like a really massive, massive, maybe, I don't know, 10 pounds, sheet of pasta, and it was very heavy, and as the pasta started flowing through my hands, and sort of achieving this leather like quality, I just got this real intense tactile sensation of, "Gosh, I could just drape this around myself," and that was just a single color sheet. I took it farther and started laying patterns down on the pasta, basically using other pasta to create lines and shapes and things overlaid on the pasta. That's when it really was like, "Wow, you know, the pastabilities are endless."Suzy Chase: Pastabilities.Linda: I had to get that in. I just, I had to get that in somewhere where. We're lucky we got it out of the way early on.Suzy Chase: You say you have no professional training but you're not self-taught. What does that mean?Linda: I think that you could say that you're self taught as sort of a ... We're in some by our life experiences, and so you don't just wake up knowing how to do something, you will have to put in a lot of hours, and part of that comes with live in the school of hard knocks. So, even though pasta is something that my grandparents taught me from a very sort of rudimentary perspective, just really making that well of flour on the kitchen table, dropping some eggs into it, stirring it up with a fork, and then kneading it into pasta, rolling it out with a rolling pin, you know, that was a very basic pasta lesson from them. But then I was a voracious reader, and apt student of anything I could get my hands on that talked about pasta. I would really dive deep into the microregions of Italy and figure out what the pasta shapes were there, and kind of try to, "Okay, what does Liguria make, and how can I really get into the trofie al pesto that Liguria's famous for, or the agnolotti del plin that Piemonte's is famous for." So a lot of reading and things like that, and then I lived in Italy for a few years. You just can't help but absorb the life of pasta. I mean, your veins bleed pasta after being there for a few weeks, or mine did anyway. Yeah, I mean I don't like to, I feel like self-taught is sort of giving yourself all the credit and I'm definitely informed by just the entire experience that I've had, meeting people, talking to people, trying a little bit of this, seeing what works, seeing what doesn't. I mean, that muscle memory is something that you can only create by practicing, by doing it yourself. But I really do, I feel like I find inspiration in absolutely everything in the world around me, in art, in media and cinema, in politics even, and I try to start to weave that into my medium, which is food.Suzy Chase: Let's talk about sourcing. What kind of flour do you use?Linda: I am a big fan of not getting too picky or too fussy with trying to source particular products because pasta, at its root, actually was something that really it was just designed to preserve flour. People had figured out a way to mill wheat down into flour, which was much easier to work with than just the raw wheat and less volatile. Then they needed a way to preserve that wheat, so that they could take it on conquests and Rome could become the Roman empire. Initially they mixed the flour with water and dried it, and that is where we got our first pasta, so no tools at all, no fancy, just wheat and that's it. So when people get too far down the path of, "All rIght, I need to source this particular flour and it's got to come from the downy hairs on virgin arms that grow in the Trevi fountain," I like to say, "All right, dial it back. Where do you live, and what's local to you? Let's figure out how to make pasta out of that." That being said, I tell people to look for certain qualities in the flour to make their lives a little bit easier, and the two qualities are that the flours should be fairly finely milled, and a way to think about that is, most people are aware of what semolina flour is, or even have felt something like cornmeal in their hands. That's very coarse and rough and has gone through a mill, but the mill lets the particles come out in a thicker fashion, whereas a finely milled flour, is going to feel like, almost like cornstarch in your hands, very light and very airy. The reason that the more finely milled flour is easier to work with with pasta, is because it absorbs the egg, or in my case, the egg mixed with the color puree better. Then I also tell people to look for a lower protein content, just because a lower protein content flour is going to make the dough easier to work with under your hands, so a nice, soft, easily kneadable texture. I do love ... Antimo Caputo makes a great flour called Pasta Fresca & Gnocchi, and that's a wonderful, very supple flour to use, if you can get your hands on it. Again, not a big deal to try to source it. Go to the store, go to the bulk bins. Look for something that ... One other thing to look for is, its color is your primary objective. You want a flour that's very light colored, so that the color of the flower itself doesn't impact the color of the puree that you're putting into it. But I always say to people, just go to the bulk section of your local grocery store. I probably shouldn't advise the people to feel the flour in the bulk bin. You can use the little scooper, you know, and kind of pour it back into the bin stuff. Look for one that is real light, real fluffy, and real white colored, and then the protein content should be on that bulk bin too. Look for one that's lower protein and that is your flour right there.Suzy Chase: So let's say we don't have a pasta machine, how can we make your pasta?Linda: I try once a week to make pasta with no tools beyond a rolling pin, because that's how I learned to do it. Or now that I'm an adult, in my case a bottle of wine makes a fantastic rolling pin.Suzy Chase: That's what I used last night.Linda: You get to drink the contents.Suzy Chase: Yeah.Linda: Perfect, you get to drink the contents, and then you have this perfect thing to roll out the pasta. You know, my one ninja-like quality I guess with pasta I would say is, I have to make pasta everywhere I go and travel to and I'll bring a little tiny pasta cutter, like a little wheel, but I don't really bring anything else, so I immediately go buy a bottle of local wine, and I come back to my hotel room, and I find some kind of surface, clean it off, and roll it out using basically no tools, whatever I have on hand. I have tried to boil pasta water using an iron. It turns out the coffee maker works a little bit better for boiling water.Suzy Chase: Wait, how did you do the iron? What was that setup?Linda: It didn't work very well. It didn't work very well. We wound up sort of making crispy pasta, almost cracker-y toasts instead, and melted some mozzarella on the top. It was still really delicious because I think any food you make sort of under duress or with a challenge always tastes better. But in all practicality, in all achievability for what people are probably ... lengths people are willing to go to in context of the book, there is an entire section of gnocchi and other rolled pasta, and those are very easy to make. You don't even use the pasta machine for gnocchi. I think there are something like at least 20 recipes there that really don't require any tools at all, beyond rolling into snakes and then cutting those snakes with either a dough scraper or a knife, which most people have access to. That's the section of the book that I recommend people start with if they don't have a pasta machine. However, even, the sheeted pastas, even the rainbow sheet, is entirely pastable, I'm throwing it in there again, to make just with a rolling pin. You'll get a little bit of a workout, but it's entirely doable.Suzy Chase: Let's go through some of the colors, and you can tell us what makes that color.Linda: Okay.Suzy Chase: Yellow. Let's start with yellow.Linda: My favorite ingredient to make yellow is turmeric. Turmeric root is sort of having a moment right now. Maybe even as little as five years ago you weren't able to find fresh turmeric root in produce sections of grocery stores, and now I sort of make it a point to look through grocery stores everywhere I am, whether I'm in Peoria or San Francisco, and turmeric is really pervasive now, and you can find it almost in every produce section or at the farmers market. I prefer to use the fresh, whole turmeric root rather than powder. That's one of the things I cover in my pasta workshops, because I have access to both and I show my students, "This is what the powder looks like, this is what the fresh cut into turmeric root looks like." You'll see if you cut through a turmeric root, it's bright and vibrant and really just the essence of that color, whereas powdered turmeric starts to sort of take on a mustard hue as it ages in the bottle. For me, I love that bright just sunshiny, it's going to make you happy if you look at it yellow. so I go for the whole turmeric root, which incidentally is brain food. I'm not a doctor, and I don't necessarily want to make health claims, but I do know that I have a lot of turmeric in my diet, and I feel its lack if I am traveling for a week and don't have it. Incidentally, turmeric bioavailability is increased, so it's better for you if you mix it with fat, so it's fat soluble. I think that the turmeric pasta is really perfect for rich and delicious sauces, like cacio e pepe or you know, something with a little bacon or pancetta in it. I use that as my license to justify that richness.Suzy Chase: Okay. Blue.Linda: Blue is, there are two things that I commonly use to make blue pasta. One of them is a special spirulina called blue magic spirulina, and they have isolated the blue phytochemicals from the green, and so it's like the color of beautiful aqua blue tropical sea water. It's just a gorgeous, gorgeous pasta color. It is a little bit on the pricey side, and so the more economical alternative to that is a special flower that's native to Southeast Asia, called the butterfly pea flower. You simply steep these dried flowers in water until you have the desire blue that you're looking for. They get really dark really fast and they're just gorgeous. I like to make that one as a water-based dough, so I don't usually add eggs. If I do, I'll just add one or two, because the yolk of the yellow in the egg will kind of dial back the blue blue of the butterfly pea flowers. But they also are a very popular ingredient right now. I know a lot of bartenders are using them in mixology, because they have some interesting pH qualities where they'll go from pink to purple to blue, depending on what you're mixing them with.Suzy Chase: Green.Linda: Green is, the world is our oyster there. Virtually anything that grows that's green, and that you like the taste of, can be made into pasta, and green, I feel, is really well covered in terms of the spectrum. You can go dark, dark, dark with a lacinato kale, and get almost like a deep sort of foresty green, or you could make a really cool, almost khaki color green with matcha. One of my favorite greens, because I am a big fan of brightness and colors that bring joy and happiness, is parsley because it's really like crayola, just classic, classic sunshine, garden, summer day green. So parsley really is, it's sort of my go to. It's also really easy to work with, because it doesn't have a lot of fibers like some of the darker green leafy greens do, so you don't have to blanche it or straighten it. You can actually just puree a parsley straight into the well of a blender with the eggs, and move forward making pasta, so it's also a really easy, versatile one to work with.Suzy Chase: Red.Linda: Red. Again, there are options for red. My go to is a mixture, so this is the first on we've talked about where you mix two things together to get a particular shade, and lots of shades can be achieved by mixing multiple ingredients together. You just want to be careful of mixing things that are across each other on the color wheel. You wouldn't want to mix with something purple with yellow, because you will wind up with something brown. For red, I mix beets along with a little bit of either paprika or harissa, so the orange from the paprika or the harissa, which is north African spice paste, will kind of tone down the pink in the beets, and achieve a very sort of fire engine, classic color red.Suzy Chase: Okay. The last color is black. How do you do that?Linda: So traditionally, black has been a very common color in Italian pasta, and they would make it with nero di sepia, or a squid ink, but it was always prepared with a seafood dish. They would have this nero di sepia pasta, often with vongole, clams or something like that. It has a very distinct taste that is delicious if, again, you're serving it with a fishy sauce. I was looking in the book to find a black that could be a little bit more neutral, and not have such an overt flavor, so that it could be paired with any sauce, and I came upon activated charcoal. It is essentially charcoal that's food grade and made through a particular process that removes any kind of carcinogens or big particulates, and it's made from very clean, usually it's made from bamboo. I use just a tiny little bit of that, like an eighth of a teaspoon will turn a four person serving of pasta nice and dark. It's a very nominal amount that you're getting, but it makes a very beautiful, neutral black that, doesn't have any extra flavor, because again, if we remember, this whole book was designed around achieving these colors, getting some kind of health benefit with the colors, but also not making them particularly detectable to sleuthing and enterprising picky people. Exactly.Suzy Chase: Is there one color that just isn't pastable, that you just can't get the hang of? See how I did that.Linda: I love that. I thought that was great. For me, the hardest color was blue initially, because blue, while it's one of the most common colors that occur in nature, it does not occur in a lot of plants. I mean you would think blueberries, but in all reality if you were go to blueberries, it's more purple. So blue really took me awhile, and it threw me for a loop in trying to come up with, "Okay. What's blue?" It always amazes me when people are like, "Oh, where do you get these esoteric ingredients for your pasta?" And the vast majority of them come literally from the grocery store, but there are a few like butterfly pea flowers, they're not expensive, but you do have to order them and they'll take a few days to arrive on Amazon. But yeah, I mean by and large people are like, "Oh, that book seems so intimidating. There's all these crazy colors and I don't think I can do it," and then after sitting with it and trying one or two of the recipes, people ... In fact, they say as an author, don't look at your Amazon reviews. I couldn't resist. Finally, after a couple months of the book being out, I had to go and look at them yesterday and I started to cry. They were all just so overwhelmingly positive, but this overarching theme through the reviews that really struck me and made me so happy was, people were nervous at the outset and they felt like I was there holding their hand the entire way. By the end of accomplishing their first recipe or their fifth or 30th, they felt super empowered and like there was no big sorcery or big mystery. This really is just a simple process that's been going on for thousands of years, at its core.Suzy Chase: Last night, I attempted to make colorful farfalle with beets. It turned out super light pink, and more like gnocchi. I feel like I didn't roll out the dough thin enough. Can you talk a little bit about the dough preparation and rolling process?Linda: Yes. You said that you used the wine bottle, right?Suzy Chase: Yep.Linda: To roll it out?Suzy Chase: Uh-huh.Linda: Okay. If you're using a wine bottle or a rolling pin, you do have to really kind of get your groove on from a muscle perspective, and roll it out nice and thin. People often ask, how do you keep the colors so vibrant? Well, the answer to that is to shape the pasta very thin. If you have a pasta sheeter, it's doing the work for you. You're just reducing the number down. There are two barrels that go across and they get thinner and thinner and thinner together. That's what makes the pasta sheet go from thick to thin as you're sheeting it through a machine. If you're doing that with the rolling pin, you're essentially doing the exact same thing, you just need to, as you're rolling it out, press harder and harder. One thing you can let help you if you are just using a rolling pin or a bottle of wine is gravity. I will often roll for about 30 seconds, and then I will hang the pasta over the back of the chair or on a rod or something, and let gravity pull it downward, which also helps the gluten in the pasta to relax and become more elastic, so that then when you come back to it, 60 seconds or a couple of minutes later, it'll roll and really get so very thin pasta. Only needs to be boiled for 30 seconds to a minute and it's done. That is how you retain the color. For the other thing to think about with not retaining color, you're also experiencing some of the nutritional attrition in the water, because there go all your beets into the water. So I tell people sheet or roll very thin, and boil for a short amount of time and your colors will hold beautifully and you'll have those extra nutrients.Suzy Chase: Those are good tips. I also made your-Linda: But also, if you were using the bottle of wine and you were drinking the bottle of wine as you were rolling out your pasta.Suzy Chase: Yeah. Forget about it.Linda: Yeah. And experiencing some diminished physical, you know.Suzy Chase: You may as well go out. No.Linda: Hey, you're having a great time, and that's all that matters.Suzy Chase: So I also made your brown butter pasta water sauce. Describe that.Linda: One interesting thing that people who've read a lot of recipes might be familiar with is using a little bit of pasta water to sort of thicken whatever sauce that they're using. A thing that people don't realize is, when a chef calls for pasta water, they're talking about pasta water that has been boiling at the restaurant during service, and hundreds of batches of pasta have come into and out of it and all of the flours sloughing off of that pasta has essentially made this water sort of a viscous, already an emulsified substance, so it's no longer like water. It's already really nice and salty, and honestly you could just drizzle a little bit of that over some pasta by the end of the night at a restaurant, and it is sauce in and of itself. Well, so my little hack for doing that at home, because you are probably not boiling 30 pounds of pasta in your pot on the stove, is to sprinkle a little bit of semolina flour into the pot of boiling salty water, in order to kind of achieve that restaurant quality water effect at home by literally just adding your own flour to it. And the reason that I suggest to you semolina flour, and not regular white flour, is because if you throw a regular flour into boiling water, it will clump, whereas if you throw semolina into it, it's course enough and the grains are separate enough that it won't clump. It'll just kind of go in and emulsify into the water. So the brown butter sauce is very simple. You just brown butter the way you normally would, to the point that your kitchen smells really toasty and almost like warm chestnuts roasting. It's got a very autumnal smell to it, very aromatic, and once your butter is to that point, and it's nice and golden brown, you will add a little bit of the pasta water in there, along with whatever you're flavoring the brown butter with, whether it's sage or whether it's the one with the poppy seeds that we talked about, or there's one with paprika that's really delicious. You can really do anything with brown butter as a vehicle, but when you add the pasta of water into it and you whisk it, it gets nice and thick and sort of almost syrupy in texture, and it's a very simple thing, and yet it just dresses pasta. The way a perfect dress would cling to a beautiful woman.Suzy Chase: Now to my segment called My Last Meal. What would you have for your last supper?Linda: That is a really easy, and I know it's probably a total cop out that it's pasta, but ...Suzy Chase: What kind?Linda: My last meal is Cacio e Pepe with a lovely and warming glass of Brunello di Montalcino.Suzy Chase: Where can we find you on the web and social media?Linda: As far as social media is concerned, I'm very active on Instagram, and I feel like it is probably the fastest and easiest way to get a hold of me. My handle is SaltySeattle. In fact, my handle across all social media is SaltySeattle. I also am very active on Facebook, same thing, SaltySeattle. I have a YouTube channel that goes a little bit deeper into video tutorials for people who want that sort of video, visual storytelling component to learning the art of handmade pasta. Then, some really exciting news that is a little bit more brick and mortar, and not quite social media-wise is that I'm building out a pasta studio and I'll be having lots and lots more pasta workshops and classes and events in 2019. That should be ready in February, so you can head to my website, whIch is SaltySeattle.com, where I'll be, once I have a definitive timeline, posting all of the information on what will happen in the pasta studio.Suzy Chase: Thanks so much, Linda, for coming on Cookery by the Book podcast.Linda: Thank you so much. This was so much fun.Outro: Follow Suzy Chase on Instagram at cookerybythebook, and subscribe at cookerybythebook.com or in Apple podcasts. Thanks for listening to Cookery by the Book podcast, the only podcast devoted to cookbooks since 2015.

Linda: What's happening? Katrina: Nothing. Nothing is happening. Linda: Nothing is... Its not working. Look. Katrina: Look sideways. Linda: I'm sideways, why? Katrina: You have to stop it. You have to cancel it. You have to start again. Linda: That is odd. Why is it doing this? Katrina: I'm going to give you an important lesson in a moment. Linda: I forgot you're live. Katrina: Were not live. Its not live yet. No, we'll go laugh in a minute. Linda: Look. Katrina: We can just admire ourselves first though. Linda: Why didn't I click the rotation. Katrina: Its not live at all. Linda: How do you do this rotation thing? Katrina: Here's the situation. You have to type in the thing, and then turn the thing, and then press go live. You type in the thing, you turn the thing, you do the thing. That's the whole technical explanation. Linda: You type the thing, do the thing, and then ... Katrina: You type the thing, you turn the thing, and then you do the thing. That's the official Wikipedia explanation. Linda: I got it. I got it. Wait, I got it. Katrina: Webster, that's the Webster explanation for how to go live. What are you doing? Katrina: Don't text Seth. Who's Seth? Why are you texting Seth? Linda: I don't even know who Seth is. Katrina: We'll go live in a minute. Linda: You haven't started yet? Katrina: I'm going to give you an important postural lesson in a moment. Just hurry up and go live. We're not live. Linda: We are so live. Katrina: I haven't started, so we're not really live at all. I don't care if anybody's on there. I am not ready to be live, and so, therefore, we're not live. When I say that we'll be live, we'll be live. Linda: I'm pretty alive. Katrina: You're always alive. Katrina: Hurry up. Linda: I'm getting side tracked. Katrina: Put your [inaudible 00:02:15]. I have an important postural lesson to give you. It's for everyone's benefit. Linda: All right. Katrina: Ah-ha. Linda: Ah-ha! Wait. Okay. Katrina: Many important and serious things are going to take place here. There will be a blood ritual at the stroke of midnight. What time is it? What time is it right now? Linda: I think it's going to work. Katrina: Press play. It's a good rule, to go left. Linda: Left is now. Katrina: Left too, press play. Always press play. Linda: Left is now? Katrina: Sometimes you have to press pause. No can I teach you something? Linda: Yeah. Teach me that life lesson please. Katrina: What time it is, because at the stroke of midnight we must have a blood ritual. Linda: A blood ritual? Katrina: It's 11:56. Linda: This is the first time you're telling me of this blood ritual. But I'm all about rituals. Katrina: Just so you can see. Okay. If you want to record a very serious video for your business, a serious video. Linda: Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah. Katrina: Serious? Linda: Serious. Katrina: Here's how you hold yourself. Firstly. Step number one, you stick your booty out. Arch that booty right out. Arch it out like you're trying to get some action up in there. Linda: You said serious. Katrina: I'm being serious. I'm giving a serious fucking tip about how to do good posture for a video, for your business. Linda: I'm good. Now- Katrina: Step number one, arch your booty out like you want to get something up in it. Linda: Arch your booty out? How do you arch your booty out? Katrina: What do you mean? Linda: You arch your back. Katrina: Yes, well you stick your butt out. Linda: Done. Katrina: I was just trying to say it in a fancy way. Arch your booty out, and then what that does- Linda: Life lessons from- Katrina: The Katrina Ruth Show. Linda: That's right. I mean how- Katrina: This is Katrina Ruth right here. Linda: The Katrina Ruth Show. Katrina: Step number one is you arch your bottom out. Lisa Michelle, how the hell are you appearing on both live streams at once? It's the voo-dooery. Exactly you park it out like your back broke. Linda: Okay I've done it. Katrina: You stick it out. Linda: I've done it now what? Katrina: Now step number two- Linda: I have my booty out. I have my chest out, what now? Katrina: Step number two is obviously bosoms out. Linda: But you already said bosoms out. Katrina: Well they kind of go out automatically when you arch your- Linda: You said arch your bosoms. Katrina: When you stick your butt out you kinda... You can't arch bosoms. How do you arch a bosom? Linda: That's what you said, arch your chest or something. Katrina: Pay attention. Linda: Paying attention. Katrina: Step number one is you stick your butt out, automatically that's going to make your breasts go out, but you should stick them out a little bit more to be sure. Linda: Well I'm feeling a little bit uncomfortable. Katrina: When you see your video on playback, you'll think that you have perfectly fabulous posture; and really you're going to look like the Hunchback of Notre Dam, I'm just teaching you how to look straight, and polite, and lady-like. So butt out, breasts out. Thirdly, what you want to do is you want to do is elongate your neck. Elongate. Linda: Like an ostrich? Katrina: Giraffe, or ostrich. You elongate your neck. Linda: I'm done, and now what? Katrina: You don't so crazy eyes. Nobody said anything about crazy eyes. Who said crazy eyes?[crosstalk 00:05:18] Elongate your neck, you want to tilt your chin slightly down- Linda: I can't do this without the crazy eyes. Katrina: Slightly down. Tilt your chin slightly down, but without- Linda: Now I got a double chin. Katrina: No looking like an alien. Thirdly, and I'm going to credit this to Amanda Francis because I learned to from her. Thirdly, you smile with your soul. When I do it, it looks creepy. That's how you have perfect posture when you're filming a very professional and serious video- Linda: This is a professional video. Katrina: For your business. Linda: Did you guys get that? The Katrina Ruth Show. Katrina: I'm just here to serve. Linda: From your soul? Katrina: Always from the soul. I'm just here to give helpful tips to entrepreneurs. Absolutely. Linda: What capes? Their talking about capes or something? Katrina: What are you talking about? Linda: I have no idea. Katrina: This is my initiation class cloak. It's for the blood rituals they happen every Saturday evening. Linda: So it's one past 12:00. What are these blood rituals? Katrina: Well we just drink the blood. Linda: No I don't do it. No, no, no, no, no. Uh-uh. No-no. Katrina: There were many important things that we came here to discuss. Linda: We actually had a lot of important things to say today. Katrina: Are you doing your posture? Linda: I am. I have my ostrich neck on. Katrina: See, it looks like we're just sitting in a normal relaxed, straight fashion. Actually, we are in excruciating pain, and it's the only way that it should be done. If your not hurting from all the arching and... Oh I forgot- Linda: The pain of being women. Katrina: I forgot to say you want to lift your torso up and twist it a little bit. Lift it up, twist it. So remember; butt out, boobs more, elongate your neck and torso- Linda: No ostrich eyes. Katrina: No crazy eyes, or ostrich eyes. And tilt your head down a little bit, keep yourself twisted. Linda: How am I doing guys? How am I doing? Katrina: It's roughly how it goes. Wait- Linda: Please tell me, how am I doing? Katrina: Stop. Linda: Life advice from the Katrina Ruth Show. Katrina: I forgot it something important. Hold the fort. Linda: Holding, holding. What do you got? Katrina: Just teach. Linda: Okay. You know what, really was the main reason we came on today. So much has been happening. We actually just finished a dinner party. Lou is that you? Katrina: Don't tell any secrets. Linda: Important, important, important advice; business advice. Katrina: Nope. I won't give in. I refuse. Linda: No. Why? Katrina: I'm not giving any business advice to anybody. Linda: But this is important business advice. What we were just doing. Katrina: I forgot my sceptre. Linda: We came... Katrina: Sorry, excuse me. Linda: Here's the thing. We were talking earlier, we had a very important message to- Katrina: It's a riding wand. Linda: This looks more like a spanking whip. Katrina: Yes it's for... you're not supposed to tell the secrets. I said no secrets. It is for spanking. I'm [inaudible 00:08:22]. Linda: Why do you have this? Katrina: Just for reasons. Linda: Would you mind sharing? Katrina: For emergencies. Linda: Its an emergency? Katrina: Well not right now, but it could be. Linda: It could be. Katrina: On occasion. I think you might have it the wrong way out maybe.[crosstalk 00:08:40] I don't know, do you? Linda: Where so you put this? Katrina: Oh well she's holding the right end. See I don't know. I just use it any which way I like. This one's rather pointy. Katrina: I refuse to give any business advice about anything. I think the advice comes from absorbing the essence of us. Linda: We were talking about the soul. It's about, you know? Katrina: The masks. Linda: The masks. That's right the masks. This is why we came on tonight, because- Katrina: Emergency spanking is always[crosstalk 00:09:07] Linda: It started from your live feed yesterday. Katrina: That was extraordinarily serious. Linda: You were throwing bread. She was throwing bread in here live feed. Go and watch it, you need to watch it. Katrina: Yeah, upon layer. Linda: Upon layer, upon layer, upon layer, upon layer- Katrina: That was the best presentation- Linda: It was. Katrina: That has happened in the history of the internet. Linda: I need to get on my knees and- Katrina: Oh that's what... Well, that's not what I meant. Linda: That's how good it was. Katrina: Well, are we wearing masks? This is actually the Katrina Ruth Show right here, and I'm Linda Doktar. Linda: I'm Katrina. This is Linda. Katrina: Face off. We did a face off. Linda: Well, heres the thing. Katrina: Earlier tonight we were talking about how impressed we are with ourselves. That's right you were talking... Excuse me, but somebody was watching videos of themselves perform amazing feats of athleticism, and announced to the- Linda: I was so inspired by myself. Katrina: And announced to the entire dinner party that she was so inspired by herself. Linda: I was. I was. Katrina: Its fair enough. Linda: I was doing trick on video, and I got really, really inspired by myself. Katrina: That's fair enough. Completely reasonable and professional. Linda: Do you ever get inspired by yourself? Because I think we should always... Katrina. Katrina: No, that's for the emergency spankings. Still has a tag on it, because I had to get inpatient. Linda: This really freaks me out, because I think this is a children's thing. Katrina: That's unfortunate. Linda: Is this a children's thing? Katrina: What kind of tricks... No, it's not- Linda: Is this for children? Katrina: No, I use this myself for professional reasons. Linda: You have two spanking equipment in your... Katrina: Just for business purposes. I don't want to [inaudible 00:10:50] Linda: Business purposes. Katrina: Can't talk about it right now. Linda: Okay. Were talking about masks. Katrina: We were going to talk about masks. Linda: And it started with you doing this... With bread- Katrina: The layers od the bread. Linda: The layers of the bread, and you were throwing bread in your live feed. It was actually a great analogy. You were talking about the layers of the masks. We're wearing these masks. Linda: Hey Kai. Linda: We're wearing these masks in life, and one of them really stood out. Katrina: Chocolate. Linda: No. Well that's just a [crosstalk 00:11:24] Katrina: The chocolate layer was the best layer. Linda: You know what really stood out for me? Why we're actually here? The Facebook masks. The Facebook masks. We're wearing these masks online; on Facebook, and we're showing the world this much. This much. Were painting this picture of who we are a little bit, but not who we are completely. Why are we doing that? Linda: Why are we doing that? Katrina: Venerability. Scared of being vulnerable. Linda: Are we afraid to be vulnerable? Are we afraid to really show the world who we really are? Katrina: Well you and I are pretty fucking transparent, and vulnerable. Are we still wearing masks? Linda: Well, were not wearing anything right now. Katrina: Capes. Linda: Yeah, but this is really the thing; being vulnerable and letting the world see everything. Everything? Because- Katrina: That's exactly what this is for. Linda: Why wouldn't you? Katrina: It's for when you need to show everything. Well heres the thing, can you actually show, or is it ever possible to show everything? Because- Linda: Can you? Katrina: You're not listening because you're pouting to the camera. I was thinking. I was in deep contemplative thought. How rude, rude an inappropriate. Katrina: The thing is, as much as you might try to be completely transparent and open; you're evolving right then and there in that moment. How much did I already shift on that one particular issue? That I was just bitching about right before we went live? Linda: Oh, That thing? Katrina: Yeah. Linda: You weren't bitching, it was a conscious tantrum. Katrina: That is the best expression in the history of time hashtag conscious tantrum. I was having the best conscious tantrum that I ever had. Linda: In the world. Katrina: Oh, I've had a few big conscious tantrums actually. Linda: Oh I have too. Katrina: Yeah we actually have a lot of conscious tantrums, the two of us. Today my children said... what did they say. I was saying to them well everybody get grumpy, because one of them was grumpy. And I said don't worry everybody gets grumpy, even mommy, even Serafina, and even Linda. And the two of them said, “No, Linda doesn't get grumpy." Linda: Linda doesn't get grumpy. Katrina: And I was like, “well you go listen to her audios.” Linda: Linda does get grumpy as well. Katrina: Linda has quite the conscious tantrum from time to time. In fact, we both have conscious tantrums to each other all the time. Do we tell Facebook about it? No we tell each other. Linda: We tell each other, but at the same time we- Katrina: We process it and we turn it into content and make money. Linda: Every time. Katrina: Like ninjas. Linda: Every time- Katrina: What costumes? This is my normal professional Saturday midnight blood ritual outfit that I always wear. Linda: And drinking blood. But heres the thing. We have our conscious tantrums, we get clarity, and it becomes content. It becomes growth, and we share that. Katrina: That's why they're a conscious tantrum. I had a conscious tantrum, it was more of a conscious hissy fit, an hour or two ago, didn't I? Linda: You did. Katrina: I expressed it. Linda: You were so cute. Katrina: I am cute. I expressed it, and I was pretty shitty about it. Was I conscious. I think I was just shitty. I think I was actually being quite immature with some of the things I was saying. Linda: No, but you were owning it. You were actually, owning it. Katrina: I did own it. I always own it. Linda: You even took responsibility to the pint where you said, "Is this my shit? Did I create it? Is this my shit?" Katrina: Oh no, you're thinking about a different conscious tantrum. [crosstalk 00:15:03] Linda: Oh, there's been multiple ones today. Katrina: That's a different one. I'm talking about, what was I talking about right there before I stormed off- Linda: All right then. Katrina: Right before I stormed off to the bathroom. Then I reframed, and reframed, and reframed. Linda: Reframed. Katrina: So I might have had two conscious tantrums today. Linda: At least, but that's okay. Katrina: It's fine. Its Saturday, I can do what I want. Linda: Every day you can do what you want. Katrina: That's, yeah, good point.[crosstalk 00:15:26] Linda: What kind of comedy I that? Katrina: Well done. Congratulations. Linda: I'm calling the Katrina Ruth Show out on some really, really- Katrina: I always do what I want. Its true. Well no, you're right. I had a small, I'm going to call that earlier one a small conscious dummy spit. The one that happened earlier today. Linda: And it makes it okay, because you add the conscious at the start. Katrina: It was more like a small conscious Waaa. I wasn't really having a tantrum. I was just stamping my feet and crying a little bit. Katrina: There's been no wine at all. It's a blood ritual. Linda: And I had no [crosstalk 00:16:01] Katrina: Blood ritual. Linda: I had no idea- Katrina: It was Karen O'Conners fault. She's been here all evening planning. Linda: Blame it on all the external. Blame it on all the external. Take no responsibility. Linda: Hello Anthony. Katrina: How rude. Well I had a conscious little cry. I was mildly upset and I said, "is this my shit." And you said, "yes it is." Linda: I did actually. Katrina: Earlier on today you had said to me "are you being stupid", and I was in an uncompassionate mode, because I was having a small anxiety moment so I just said yes. I was like yes you are being silly. Linda: Yeah, that's your own shit. Katrina: That was true though. Linda: Yeah, but how amazing was it that you- Katrina: And you work for it, you go through it. And then I had my conscious tantrum. That was what just happened in the last hour to two. Remember? Linda: Yeah, but its been more like every hour. Katrina: You know the one I mean. Linda: No. I need to write this down in my journal to remember. Katrina: It was the one that really fricken got to me. Linda: Yeah. Do it again? Katrina: Then I decided on some decidedly immature actions that I might take. Linda: And I said, “Is that what you really want to do?” Is that coming from a very conscious spite. Katrina: And I said, “yes,” like a teenager. Linda: And even the music's saying hello from the other side, Its like wake up Katrina. Katrina: I'm a conscious teenager. Linda: But it makes it okay, because you put the conscious in front of it. Always, every time when you put the conscious in front of something. Katrina: So it is what it is. I'm still going to do that, just so you know. Linda: So are you going to tell them about your tantrum? I mean one of them. Katrina: No I can't. Not at all. Linda: Okay, just though I'd check. Katrina: No. Linda: I know. Katrina: Sorry, mask on. Facebook mask on. But I referred to it. Katrina: Well we're not trying to help people at all. No we want to... Oh my god. Kenneth on...Let's bring it. Kenneth on Linda's live stream says... he says it in this voice exactly, “I know you guys are trying to be funny, but you know,” and he's nodding his head, “you know in order to really help people you need to really put your content together, and be sorta, kinda, coherent.” Sorta, kinda is definitely what you want to say before you use the word coherent by the way. Sorta, kinda, coherent. “And not acting like a bunch of drunk school girls.” Katrina: Well, how many are there. There's only two, where's the rest of the bunch? They already left. “This rambling is hard to follow, and to make sense out of.” That's what Kenneth Fitzgerald Cheney has to say over on Linda's live stream. Katrina: Well Kenneth, I'm so glad that you brought this to our attention, and I have many things to say. Unfortunately the remainder of the school girls already left. Thank you for referring to us as school girls, because we do look amazing. Linda: I take that as a compliment, by the way. Katrina: We look amazing. I'm just going to point out a small teeny little fact, can I? Linda: Go ahead. Katrina: So you said that's it hard to follow and make sense out of, which implies that its not worth staying for and you don't want to be here, but yet you're here and choosing to comment. Which makes you, bitch, you're a fan. Katrina: I had one glass of wine. I know its on you're live stream, but he's followed me for ages, so I'm taking him as part of my audience, and I'm just making [crosstalk 00:19:25] for him. Linda: Take them all. Take him. Take him. Katrina: At what point did we say we were here to help anyone? Oh, he's adding to it. “Well you guys are beautiful, but I mean your subject is tantalising. We're talking about masks, and.” And then he just finishes with an and. Listen to me. I am the only person on the internet whose allowed to start and finish sentences with an and. You can't just finish a sentence with an and, but we accept the beauty compliment. Thank you. Katrina: The subject is tantalising. I think what you mean is we are tantalising. We're talking about masks...”that's masks needed to..." Now you're repeating your words, which is starting to lead to the belief that you are the one who is a bunch of drunk school girls; because you've now said that masks needed need to be talked about. Continue, carry on. Linda: But what if this is not actually a mask? What id this is actually what happens behind the scenes? Katrina: It is. We were walking around all evening with our cloaks on. Linda: We were. We were. Katrina: I have photos of other people in cloaks as well. We do dome weird parties here. Kenneth is a bunch of drunk school girls. He said, "kinda, sorta, coherent." If you are going to use the word coherent in a sentence, I do believe that it should not be... what's the word? Should not be followed up by, but the opposite of that. You should not say the word coherent after saying kinda, sorta; because it kind od disputes the coherent. You're either coherent, or you're kinda, sorta you can't be both at the same time. Which one is it? Preface. You can't go prefacing your coherent with kinda, sorta. Linda: Hello Steven. Katrina: Hello Steven. Linda: Welcome. Katrina: Welcome. Linda: Were having very, very serious chats about masks. Katrina: Very, serious. Well it actually a fabulous point that Kenneth makes. He says we should have our masks on, but what you have to understand is that we legitimately were walking around like this, talking to each other. Linda: We actually were. We were. Katrina: And the others, who have already left. Send the invoice on over. I'll pay you in garlic. Linda: So, is there a rule that we have to show up a certain way on social media? Katrina: Well, apparently Kenneth has the rule book. Send it to us. Send it via fax. We want it by fax. Linda: Do you even have a fax machine? Katrina: I'm sure there's one somewhere on the [inaudible 00:21:55]. They might have one here. Katrina: I'm not an old drunk. I take great offence to that Leah. I'm drinking nothing but mountain water, and spring water. Linda: No, she said she's a drunk. Katrina: No she's interpreting drunk [inaudible 00:22:11], she says. What non of you realise is that I'm a fabulous actress. It's really 9:00 AM, and I just did a work out, and had a coffee, and I'm completely straight laced. Linda: Totally, but this is the Katrina Ruth Show. Katrina Ruth Show, she does what she wants, and I've just joined her show this evening. Katrina: Its very tiresome when the normal people... Don't you find its tiresome when the normal people come onto live stream and you have to try to explain life to them? If you though I was going to stay within some sort of boundaries, you though wrong. I wouldn't have done it if I thought it was somebody who I didn't know, but this is somebody who's followed my page. I pretty sure I blocked you awhile back Kenneth, actually. Let me get my laptop, I'm checking that right now. Linda: How many people are on your block list? Katrina: It's an unreasonable amount. Linda: Unreasonable amount, like hundreds? Katrina: Is my laptop there already? Linda: I don't know where you put your laptop, all I can see is spanking gear. Katrina: I think I lost it. Did somebody steal it? Linda: But heres the thing... Katrina: I'm not kidding I don't know where my- Linda: Hello Brendon. Katrina: All right listen to me. Linda: Listen. Listen Linda, listen, listen. Do you know that one? Do you know that clip? Katrina: People can't go around commenting on Linda's live stream when they've been blocked by me. As far as the masks go, what did you just say? You said something fascinating. Do you remember what it was? Linda: Oh my god, A lot of fascinating things come out of my mouth. I don't know- Katrina: I mean mostly what you say is fascinating, in fact 100% of the time its fascinating. Linda: 100% of what I say is fascinating. Katrina: That's why when you're up stairs in bed, I'm still listening to audios from you downstairs. Linda: In the same house. Katrina: And then audioing back before you make it back down stairs. Its like an ongoing walkie talkie system. Linda: We have this- Katrina: Where's the block list? Linda: Love relationship. Katrina: Love love. It's a love love relationship. Linda: It's always a love love. Katrina: Look at this, we look amazing no masks at all. Linda: But this is the thing- Katrina: As I was saying, it tiresome to have to deal with normal people. But you said something about, do we ever have a mask on? You said something. Linda: You know what Kat, and I want to tell everybody. When I started taking quantum leaps in my business, in my life, in every area of my life; you know when I did that? Started removing the mask. Started removing the mask and letting the world really see me, because- Katrina: Let yourself be who you want to be. Linda: I'm so tyres of wearing a mask. I'm so tired. I'm tired, I'm done. I'm tired. Who else is tired? If you're tired let us know, because I see so many people hiding. Katrina: Look. Linda: Oh, that is a lot. That is a long list. Katrina: No an unreasonable list. Linda: I got the inside stories. Katrina: She's looking at my blocked list right now. Linda: The block list. Katrina: Do you recognise any of these people? Heres one. Linda: Oh. I see so many people wear masks online- Katrina: Maybe I didn't block him, what a [crosstalk 00:25:24] I am. Linda: So many. But why? I want to even invite you to ask this question from yourself. Why are you wearing a mask? Katrina: The thing is, it is a fabulous point that he made. Having a go at us, and trying to school us on how to be more helpful online. Who said we were here to help anyway? But actually, were helping by being ourselves. And the point is, the whole mask conversation is about being whoever you are. Which means that sometimes, you know what? Sometimes you're just sitting around casually on a Saturday night, in your cloak, being a clown, and maybe that's who you are. And that's no mask. Linda: Exactly. And you know what? Fun is definitely part of life, and I've been suppressing fun. I've been suppressing that part. Katrina: Where sis you put it? Linda: I don't know. Katrina: Did you lock it away? I'll get you the key. I have the key. Linda: I did for a long time. Please, please give me the key. Katrina: [inaudible 00:26:25] Linda: She gave me the key to unlock the fun. Katrina: Heavy moment. Linda: I don't know if I'm ready for this. Katrina: It's a heavy moment. Let it out. I think I'm sweating underneath the cloak. Linda: I'm sweating. Katrina: I smell quite delightful. It opposite day. The most important thing is being comfortable being who you are. What if there was no point to anything. People might assume that we have a point to getting on this live stream, like why are they doing this? Where is this going? Linda: Its like where are the teachings? Where's the wisdom? Katrina: Right. So what id there was no point? Linda: What if there didn't have to be a point? Katrina: What if the point was you get to just be yourself? Linda: Kenneth. Katrina: Who ever you are in that moment. Linda: But see Kenneth, I am vulnerable and I also have different sides to me, just like everybody else; every single person watching this, we all have different parts to self. And me personally; I'm going to own up to a big thing now; I've been really suppressing the fun side of myself. Fun is one of my highest values, and I've been suppressing that in a major way. Katrina: Its true. You are very fun. Linda: And yeah you might see that behind the scenes, but have I really... You know even looking at my social media, have I really let the world in on the fun as much as I really am? Katrina: No. Linda: No. I haven't. Katrina: Have any of us? Linda: Have any of us? You know I see a lot of entrepreneurs showing up in just their messaging. Just this certain area of who they are. Katrina: Well people think that there's rules, even the people who think there's no rules. Which is our people essentially, who know that there's no rules, but they still think that there's rules. They still think, well there has to be some sort of purpose, or intent, or point, or I have to have an outcome in mind; but what id it was just living your life? Katrina: So tonight we had a small dinner party here. Imagine that everyone who came along to the dinner party was coming along thinking; what is my outcome or intention, or what do I have to make sure to achieve from being at Kat's house tonight. What goal must I accomplish, or even, how do I want to be perceived? Right? Linda: Yeah. Yeah. Katrina: Which is kind of what people are thinking for sure on Facebook. How do I want to be perceived? I want people to think I'm empowering or inspiring, or funny, or whatever it is. But then as soon as you start to try to be that, you're not that. Katrina: Imagine if everybody who came here tonight came along trying to make sure that they were funny, or entertaining, or perceived as being intelligent. It would be such an awkward, bizarre conversation. Linda: Yeah. Katrina: Whereas everyone just showed up, you know, on the back of a busy day, rushing to get here, a little bit late, or some people not late, whatever. But you know what I mean. Nobody's like let me now think about how to show up to the dinner party. Linda: Yeah, yeah. Katrina: They just come. Linda: Yeah. Katrina: And then we had an amazing evening. Which was a mix of hilariousness, and seriousness- Linda: Yeah- Katrina: And deep connection- Linda: It was all of that. Katrina: And other things. It was all of it. Linda: It was a polarity of everything. Katrina: Of course. Linda: Everything. Katrina: Of course, and it was total flow. Linda: And then we said we should do a live feed about masks. We should really let the world see who we really are behind the scenes. Katrina: I think I say that all the time anyway. Linda: With no other intention. Absolutely no other intention. We have no plan. Katrina: But that's the thing when you go on a live stream... I believe, when you get on a live stream its got to be the same as going to dinner with your friends. You just turn it on and you see what fucking happens. If you go on with the intention no I'm going to be; even if you get on and you try to be entertaining, then its like you're trying. Or you get on and you're like I'm going to be deeply inspirational, or deeply spiritual, or deeply serious. Or I'm going to sell my shit or whatever. Katrina: Well if you're practised at it you can still do it, but the ones where you literally press go live are the ones where the gold comes out. Katrina: Okay, we've made Steven's son throw up. Were sorry about that. Steven says, "I just joined you live, and one of my boys started throwing up." Linda: I hope your son is okay Steven. Katrina: We apologise. I hope he's okay. My daughter was throwing up earlier [crosstalk 00:30:55] Linda: He may not have thrown up because he saw us, but who knows. I don't know that. Linda: So heres the thing. What if you just showed up as you, had no plan and just allowed yourself to be you? Katrina: No intention. You are the point, what if the point was just being you? Linda: Being you. Not doing, but being? Embodying yourself. Katrina: Do you know what it comes down to? Do you know why most people will never do that in an online business? Linda: Why? Katrina: I don't know about the rest of Facebook. Is anybody even on Facebook to not make money anymore? Is that a thing. Sound ridiculous. But as far as online business, the reason why most people will never do this; they don't have the faith to do that. They won't trust to do that. Linda: They're scared of being judged. Katrina: They won't trust that they can just be themselves. Linda: Yeah, yeah. Katrina: And seal the business that they want, or get the results, or that people will even like them. So then they think that they have to do something, or be something, or be somebody. Linda: Exactly, put on that mask. Katrina: On masks. Linda: Exactly. The mask. Katrina: The mask. Linda: But dint we get tired of wearing the mask? Katrina: Throw it off, just throw it off. Linda: Throw it off. Katrina: Its not even a mask. It was a cloak. I only threw it off because I was so hot I thought I was having a menopausal... Linda: Oh you threw the whole thing off?[crosstalk 00:32:05] Katrina: I thought I was having a hot flash. It mother fucking hot in there. Linda: Is this wearing a mask? This is the not mask though. This is- Katrina: That's just a normal at home Saturday lounge affair. That's for lounging around on a Saturday evening at home. That's why we were wearing it earlier. We were wearing them for hours earlier when no cameras were on. Linda: We were, and you children were running around, and we were having a good time. Katrina: Every one was wearing one. We have many, because it's a normal thing to have many cloaks in your house. Linda: Of course, it is. They key is the whole point. Katrina: Okay. Well Kenneth is leaving, we're sorry to hear it. I don't know what else I got to say I think I've already said all my things. What else do you have? Linda: Well you know what? I know what it feels like to be terrified to take off your mask. I was even terrified today. And that was one of my little conscious tantrums that I had; silently behind closed doors, because I ended up posting on social media earlier today. I ended up writing something... Its still there, it still exists, but its set privately to just myself. I had it up for half an hour, its still there, but I had a freak out moment. I reverted and retracted, and all of a sudden; I haven't felt like this for a very long time; it was a fear of what are people going to think of me? Linda: It was a blog with the heading of, What really goes on in a Laptop lifestyle. What really goes on behind closed doors, and I shared some hilariousness over the last 36 hours, some bullet points of what's happened in my exploiting- Katrina: Craziness. Linda: Yeah. The craziness behind the scenes. And all of a sudden I'm like I don't have permission to share that. And I- Katrina: Freaked out. Linda: I freaked out, and I turned the settings to just me. I mean some people would have seen it already, but I might actually post it later I wanted to just sit with that. Katrina: You should post it. It was a fabulous post. I read the post. Linda: I sent it to Katrina. I had my conscious tantrum and I sent it to Kat and she said- Katrina: Well you audioed me and told me about it. So, then I went on your page. Then I was like but where is it, because I can't find it. There's nothing there. Linda: And I said I turned it on to private just to see me, because I wanted to process, but as I was... quite often when we're having these internal experiences we just- Katrina: Steven said he saw it. What did you think? Linda: Oh, you've seen it. Steven let me know what- Katrina: What did you think? I though it was a fantastic post. I thought it was really funny, but really insightful as well. And then Linda said, am I just being stupid? Linda: Am I being stupid? Katrina: And I said yes. Linda: Am I creating this story in my own mind? Katrina: Basically. Yes it is your story. You're allowed to have a story. Linda: I instantly picked up the phone and I verbalise what I was feeling. I verbalised and I let it out, and I wasn't bottling it up. I actually wanted to work through it. That's why I call it a conscious tantrum because somethings going on inside of me, and I always want to work through that. I want to process it. I want to sit with it- Katrina: You're allowed to have a tantrum. That's the thing, you're allowed to lose your shit. You're allowed to be stomping your foot or feeling upset, or feeling grumpy. Linda: Of course. Katrina: But the conscious aspect is if you choose that. I mean maybe you're allowed to just do that and you don't even have to process it all, or create growth from it. We just automatically do. We automatically turn everything into growth. Linda: Every single time. That's my commitment to myself, and my life, and my community, and humanity as a whole. Everything that I move through within myself, and as you know I turn that into content. I share myself very, very openly with the world. And I continue to find different layers of myself that I might not be sharing with the world. Linda: Do not even. Katrina: Sorry. Linda: What's this got to do with any of this? Katrina: Nothing. I'm just very reactive right now. Linda: But I love it. I love it because she's not wearing a mask. You're just being yourself. Katrina: I'm just sending a message.[crosstalk 00:36:34] Linda: You're just being yourself, and I love it. Katrina: I wasn't replying to any naughty messages at all. They just popped up. Linda: Has a saw it, I loved it. So raw and such a comical version of what can actually be so real. Thank you Heather. Katrina: Right. It was an amazing post. So- Linda: Thank you my darling. Katrina: So we definitely have conscious tantrums frequently. Or whenever they need to occur. Linda: Absolutely. Katrina: But we are amazing. We are. We should get an award. I'll get you an award. Linda: Can I have an award? You know what I saw - Katrina: Here it is. It's a blinged out[crosstalk 00:37:09] cushion. Linda: Oh my god, this is a moment to remember. I saw a clairvoyant a couple of years ago- Katrina: And she said you were going to receive a [crosstalk 00:37:14] cushion? Linda: No, she said that I was going to receive an award. Katrina: Well there it is. Linda: Like unexpectedly. Thank you so much.[crosstalk 00:37:26] Katrina: You've got one right there, but. Linda: I feel so blessed. Thank you. Thank you. Katrina: Can I just check if I got a message back? Linda: No. Katrina: I'm just going to have a quick look. Linda: What are you doing? I love it. You know what I love about you. I love that you are just being you in life, in business, on your live feeds, and behind closed doors. Oh my god. Oh Steven, sending love to your boy. I really am sending love to your boy. Hopefully he gets well. Katrina: We're trying to make an important and serious point. Linda: What's the point? Katrina: Don't remember. I got distracted. Linda: Clearly. Clearly. Katrina: It's about growth. It's about fucking growth. Let's say you lose your shit. Lets' say you get triggered as fuck by something. From now on, by the way when you say the words as fuck, you have to say as fuck. Linda: As fuck. Katrina: It official. I put it in the million in [maximo 00:38:42] trainings for everybody. So when you lose your shit, or you get triggered; I know for me anyway, and I know you're the same, because we always work through everything. That when I get triggered by something, or I get upset, or have a little conscious temper tantrum, or whatever it might be. That it always turns into growth and it always turns into- Linda: Every time. Katrina: An evolution of my own inner working and understandings. Linda: Every time. I honestly feel like- Katrina: You're always thankful. Linda: Yeah. Exactly, because we consciously choose to work through something it like were taking quantum leap after quantum leap every single day. And it's a choice of how we live life, I guess. Katrina: Sometimes you just feel like you're fucking over it though, right? Linda: Yeah. Katrina: Like sometimes it just feel relentless and you're just like really, can I just get to the flow bit now? But then its like that is part of the flow bit. I think what a lot of people don't understand about flow is that the uncertainty or the growth, the growing pains, the struggle, or the turmoil is inherent to the flow. And it actually is something to be grateful for because it always shows you your own areas of insecurity, or your own areas of wounding- Linda: Vicki. Katrina: Hey Vicki. Katrina: Or areas where you aren't fully owning your shit. Linda: Yeah. Yeah. Katrina: Areas where you may be looking outside of yourself for validation or self worth. So in the short term you might be "what the fuck. This happened and I'm shitty, or I'm triggered, or this person is getting to me, or whatever it might be." Then you rant on. We rant on to each other on an audio about it. Linda: Conscious temper tantrums. Katrina: We audio so much though, like all day every day. Sometimes it adds up to 40 or 50 minutes of audios or more a day. But then sometimes what interesting; lets say one of us would audio the other with an issue, and then the other person hadn't listened to it yet and hadn't got back to them. Then probably by later that afternoon there would already be a following audio like " right. So I fully processed it. I've figured it out"- Linda: Oh that only like 20 minutes later, normally. Katrina: That was like the situation here. Where I was kind of on the side telling you about it when we were ll sitting at the table. Linda: Yeah. Katrina: And then before we went live I cam ein and I started having a little temper tantrum about it again. Linda: Yeah. Katrina: And then I figured it out. Linda: All I was doing was just observing you, and you had worked every single bit out. Katrina: I worked it out. I figured it out. I figured out exactly why that came to show me a lesson. I went through several days of shit, of being shitty about this, shitty about this, shitty about this; does it mean this, or this, or this? And then I got to of fuck it's this insecurity inside of me, or its this area where I'm not fully owning something inside of me. Linda: How powerful is it, the fact that you can dive into yourself and own up to those part of yourself? Katrina: How do we answer that question? I thought you said you were leaving? You said like 20 minutes ago that you were leaving and now you're asking what audio. How do you answer what's audio? Linda: It's an audio message. It's a voice memo. Katrina: Its like there's visual and there's audio. In life there is visual and there's audio. Linda: Its a voicemail. Katrina: Audio means audio. Its auditory, you can hear it with your ears. That's what audio means. How can you ask what audio means? It like when you go to the movie and you can hear the sound. That means audio, or a song. I don't know how to answer that question, I'm even trying to be serious. Linda: You always make me laugh. You always make me laugh. Katrina: I'm being completely professional. You said we weren't helping people. Now I helped you. So there you go. Help somebody dear. Linda: Welcome to the Katrina Ruth Show. Katrina: Can I go to bed now? I've helped a person. I might go to bed anyway. Linda: No, no, no. No. But its beautiful the growth that comes from choosing to dive in and look at our shit. Katrina: It is, and it's fucking annoying sometimes, but then you're always grateful in the end. Linda: Always. Katrina: It isn't like you just feel like; what the fuck, why am I going through this again. And then you go I'm so glad that happened because it showed me this, this, and this. Linda: I even turned the fact that I found shit in my bags. I turned that into gratitude. Katrina: Yeah, that was thanks to Bull. Linda: Like literally found crap in my bag. Katrina: That's yucky. Linda: And I still came back. Katrina: That's unfortunate. Linda: Where it happened. Yeah. And you know every time, every time. Even now when I get triggered I instantly shift it into gratitude. I allow myself to feel, and I go "okay I'm choosing to be grateful because I'm being shown something that I get to learn." I get to- Katrina: Exactly. It always there if you're learning. Linda: Always. Katrina: [inaudible 00:43:42] Linda: Mickey. Katrina: Do we have anything to add? Linda: Are you asking them? Katrina: I don't know. I'm asking the universe. Linda: We always have. We could go all night. Imagine if we went all night. Katrina: We always do anyway, with or without the camera. Linda: We didn't even rook up for any teachings, we didn't rook up with an intention. We just rooked up. Katrina: That is the teaching, you are the point. Linda: You are the point. Katrina: Your best work will come out when you're not trying to be anything. When you just give yourself permission to be you, period, the end. Whoever you are in that moment. Linda: We are so incredibly, incredibly afraid to show who we really are, and that's a journey that I've taken myself. And I continue to get to learn more and more every day; as I'm discovering deeper parts of myself. We get so afraid of judgement from others, but why? Because there's going to be people out there who, people who judge you and don't like you regardless of what version or what mask you're putting out there. And knowing that whatever mask you're putting out there, you know that you're not being authentic and true to yourself. Not only to yourself, but the world. So what if you just allowed yourself to be you and fully own truth in your own soul, because there's going to be people out there who judge you and don't like you regardless. So why not just be yourself? Katrina: Exactly. You need to be fresh and ready for big training tomorrow Linda. She will be. I pinned tomorrow is a hundred thousand hours away. Linda: I'm good. Katrina: Dager be yourself. Linda: Hey Mel. Katrina: Hey Mel. Linda: Hey Mel. Linda: But that is really the message that come full circle. Be yourself. Take off your mask you are the point. You really are the point. Katrina: And help yourself, So be yourself now. Good bye. Linda: Good bye. Katrina: Have an amazing rest of the evening. Go be you. No filter, no BS. Linda: Go do you, because no one does you like you do. Bye.

Katrina Ruth: Welcome. Hi humans. What is happening? Interesting. Interesting. Very interesting. There's people. Hello to the people. Hi Kendra. Kendra, I feel like I haven't seen you in a long while. Katrina Ruth: I am doing the thing that you do when you go live, which is you just kinda fuck around for a little bit, you fix your hair, make sure your posture is good. You see which head tilt looks better, which side. Thank you. I forgot I had this top. Found it in the closet. Have many clothes that I've forgotten about. Katrina Ruth: Now, my hair looks fine. I think I could adjust it just one time. Just one time. Let me share this little stream over. Where have you been though? Watching without commenting. Katrina Ruth: Hello Anne Marie. Katrina Ruth: Why did my little wizardry woman not copy over? I tried to copy my wizardry woman when I'm sharing it. Where is she? Who is she? What is she? And she won't let me share. Katrina Ruth: So, you know when ... I'm very clam. I refuse to be swayed, but my little princessy, empress ... she's an empress, excuse me, excuse all of you. The empress will not allow herself to be shared. I mean, it's very emporessy of her. I think you'll agree. She's just like, "No bitch." Too bad, I'm gonna find you in the keyboard emojis, you wirely little empress. Where are you? I won't do that dancing lady, I won't. I don't feel like flamenco lady today. Today is the day for the empress. Where is she? I'm fantastic. I was able to share the empress over to the daily asskickery group. You'll be very happy to hear it. Katrina Ruth: Now, you know the thing that you've gotta do when you come on the live stream? Let me just tell you the things. Let me tell you the things that you must do when you come on to a live stream, in case you didn't know. Katrina Ruth: Hello Shannon. Katrina Ruth: Now, firstly a man told me once that if I twirl my hair in front of him it means I wanna have sex with him. Can anybody give me their ... can somebody tell me whether this is true or not? 'Cause I twirl my hair a lot on the live stream, I don't know if that means I wanna have sex with all of you. Who's even here? Let me see. Let me consider the options. Katrina Ruth: So far I've only ... well it's not telling me everybody is here, so I don't know really, but I always feel a little bit alarmed when I start twirling my hair on a live stream. I feel like, "Do people suddenly think that that means I wanna have sex with everybody? I'm not kidding, he stood at my kitchen bench and he said to me, "Just so you know I know that you wanna have sex with me because you're twirling your head at me and you're biting your lip. I'm like, "I was not biting my lip." I said, "I'm twirling my hair because it feels fantastic." He said, "Do you wanna have sex with me?" I was like, "I take offence". I didn't say that. I didn't really know what that means. I was like, "Fine, you might be right." But I still don't think that it's a valid actual rule. Katrina Ruth: Can somebody vote? Claire says, "I think they say that because it's something people do when they're nervous." Katrina Ruth: He said I was staring at his lips. He was quite certain about himself, let's just put it that way. Katrina Ruth: No it wasn't a plumber. It was a friend. Who's a friend? He was just basically saying that he could read my energy and just being quite cocky about it. Katrina Ruth: Anyway, he may have been very right, but that's really neither here nor there. I don't think that it's an automatic thing that if you twirl your hair at somebody ...Ella, is it a thing 'cause I twirl my hair constantly especially when I'm on a live stream. I'm constantly twirling my hair. I suppose I am thinking about sex quite a lot though. So, could be for that reason. Katrina Ruth: The lip biting thing, I don't know. I can understand lip biting if you're really in the passion of it, but I don't think I just walk around looking at people and biting my lip, or staring at their lips. Maybe I do. I don't know. Katrina Ruth: So, that's what I was trying to say though. When you come on a live stream ... firstly I have a cloak here just in case, this is a cloak just in case I need it. I didn't put my cloak on today. Secondly, when you come on a live stream, you must adjust your hair. Everybody knows that. I've already done it. I didn't it before I went on live but then you do it again just to be sure. Katrina Ruth: The next thing that you've gotta do is if you're smart, you wanna make sure that you jump onto the computer and check how you look there because the phone is a liar. The phone, she's a seductress and a liar. The phone will have you thinking that you can see from here up or something, but really it's gonna be from wherever it is, so I can see it on the screen from there up, but on my phone I can't see that much. So, what if I had, I don't know a crock top under and I didn't want you to see my stomach? Then too bad, it'd be too bad for me. Katrina Ruth: Alright, I'm adding this little empress emoji over here on my personal page and then I'll be ready to talk about some things, many things. Katrina Ruth: Claire says, "Someone told me we twirl our hair when we are tired." I just twirl my hair 'cause it looks fabulous, but now ever since he told me that I've always felt concerned that I may be, accidentally twirling my hair at people and then that wherever I go around the Gold Coast people just think I wanna have sex with them, which is not necessarily true. In fact, it's generally not true is the truth of the matter, but maybe I'm just accidentally giving off the wrong impression all the time. I suppose it's not harmed me so far. [inaudible 00:07:32]. Cool. Katrina Ruth: So, "Hey, twirling is used to release tension. Sometimes it's sexual tension." Oh well, there we have it. We have the relationship expert amongst other things telling us exactly what it means. Now I know. That's what it means. If I twirl my hair at you, that's definitely what it means, just so you know. Katrina Ruth: So, I've had the most fascinating weekend, I must say. I've had a most unusual ... I don't know how to say this, I don't know what I'm putting out there with my energy right now but I've had some very interesting conversations this weekend. It's been quite fascinating. I think I've changed something in my energy. It might just be the it might just be the breasts. Or it's the hair twirling, obviously. It's definitely the hair twirling, and the lip biting. I wasn't even biting my lip at anybody. I didn't bite my lip at a single person all weekend except maybe in rage, possibly. Katrina Ruth: So, what was I even gonna talk about? Resolve. Katrina Ruth: Hello Lisa. Katrina Ruth: Resolve. We're gonna talk about resolve. And specifically what we're gonna talk about is whatever the fuck comes out of my mouth 'cause I already kinda got bored of the topic of resolve. I think I wrote about it already, so now I don't know what I wanna talk about. So, we'll just sit here for a moment and we'll think about it. Katrina Ruth: Shannon, "What would you like to talk about?" Katrina Ruth: I don't know, I just kind of go through these periods and then I'm like, "Do you think that you just ..." see, I can't stop touching my hair, but I think I'm really just using it as an excuse to touch my breast, and I thought that that might be a phase that would wear off after a month or so. It's not even been a month, it's been 12 days actually, look how recovered I am. I'm like a recovery genius. Katrina Ruth: Today my mother said to me, "Did you have a boob job?" I never told her. I told the whole internet but I didn't tell my mother, so anyway, she was remarkably unruffled about that actually considering that she heard from somebody else and not me. She just asked me how my recovery is going, and I said, "Fantastic because I'm a recovery magician." I didn't say the word magician 'cause my mom wouldn't really care for it. I said, "Recovery maestro." I didn't say maestro either. I said, "Because I'm amazing at healing and recovery." It was something along those lines. Katrina Ruth: And I thought that that face of wanting to touch yourself might wear off after a few weeks or a month, but then one of my clients ... it's not a prop, it's just how I walk around the house, what are you talking about? One of my clients/friends ... unruffled is an amazing word, isn't it? We should use it more often as a community. Yes, one of my clients/friends told me that 10 years later she still can't stop touching her breast all the time. Katrina Ruth: Now, I might say that I've had an unreasonable amount of requests from my male friends for me to send photos, which I find kind of hilarious 'cause I don't think that they would normally be asking me to send photos of my breasts. In fact, they don't normally. My friends, my actual friends, I'm not talking about romantic interests. And now all of a sudden it's just a common every day request. Apparently I'm being quite stubborn and rude that I'm not sending through photos so that they can give some kind of official Amazon review. Katrina Ruth: The resolve thing. Let's come back to that. I think that we just do it on purpose sometimes. You have these days, or for me it's been kind of yesterday and today ... yesterday I had an anxiety day, which I don't really care for that much. I'm making light of it now but I did write about it yesterday and it's a real thing, or everything is a real thing, whatever. I don't wanna go on, and on about it again. But yesterday was an anxiety day, and then today was next level grumpy bitch day. You know grumpy cat from Friends? Is grumpy cat from Friends? Where is grumpy cat from? Grumpy cat's on the internet somewhere. Let's find grumpy cat. I've definitely been grumpy cat all day. Katrina Ruth: I just snapped at one of my friends on a message when he asked me where I am in the world, like where I physically am. And I gave him an answer that according to his reply ... or his reply to me and said, "Don't talk to me like a client." He gave me a coaching client answer, and I said, "I did not." I said, "I'm just rolling my eyes at you because I already told you earlier today where I am. Australia, and now I had to tell you again, and what's with men and not paying attention to details? And then I said, "Sorry. I'm just having a grumpy day." Katrina Ruth: Smelly cat is the one from Friends, but there is a grumpy cat. Hopefully when I posted earlier on Facebook today that I was having a grumpy day ... I received him. I'm receiving all manner of messages at the moment that are just kind of hilarious, but also fabulous. But I got a helpful message earlier today when I posted that I was grumpy and said, "I know what you need, and it's not ... whatever, reframing, "It's penis." And I'm like, "Alright, that's super fucking helpful. Thank you." You're right. Katrina Ruth: Do you think I'm being quite staccato on what I'm saying today? I feel like I'm not remotely connected to anything. I'm just dropping random ideas, one after another, without linking any of them up together. And it may or may not go anywhere at all. Katrina Ruth: That's right, I was looking at grumpy cat. Okay. Now, I'm interested. Here we go. There's grumpy cat. So, I did a really good deep post about why I was grumpy, and I made some really good points about shifting things, and then of course it's a guy ... messages me, and sends me a meme. Some sort of meme that I won't repeat, but then ... No. There's nothing ... just undid my whole post basically and said that really why you're grumpy is your need penis. And I'm like, "Yes. I'm fully fucking aware of that. No need to point it out." Don't worry, I'll resolve all issues as I always do. This is my happy face. This was my happy face today. There it is, grumpy cat. Katrina Ruth: Thank you Kobie. It wasn't even a grumpy cat meme. I thought of the grumpy cat memes myself. Katrina Ruth: What are we up to? Should we start the conversation? Should we begin the show? So, I had an anxiety day yesterday. That was not fun, not fun, not fun even though I'm well rehearsed and well versed ... Katrina Ruth: What did Shannon say? "We should talk about how bum-diggity you actually are while drinking vino." Katrina Ruth: This is my first bit of wine today though. I haven had any wine to drink. Rudely when I was on my live stream last night with Linda people were accusing us of being drunken school girls, which we found supremely offensive, whilst also quite flattering. Katrina Ruth: Anxiety day is not that fun, but I'm well versed in how to deal with it. Today was a grumpy day. Today was a fuck the world day, but at the same time I had a great day in many ways. Katrina Ruth: And then I thought to myself ... thank you. Thank you Yvonne. Then I thought to myself, "Maybe I just create these grumpy days, or anxiety days from time to time to then remind myself of how fucking strong I am, and how determined, and how resilient I am. Katrina Ruth: I already wrote a whole book about an hour ago. My children got to stay up an extra 30 minutes 'cause I was busy finishing the blog instead of putting them to bed, but now they're asleep. Linda's around somewhere as well. She may or may not appear. She's doing a big training upstairs, but she might be nearly done now. Katrina Ruth: So, I don't need to repeat the whole jolly blog, I already wrote about that, but essentially after I wrote the blog, then I thought about it, and I thought, "I'm pretty sure that we just create these really grumpy or annoyance anxiety days in order to ..." like a contrast, you know what I mean? It's a contrast but it's also a lesson teaching. Katrina Ruth: Okay. I feel like I'm not remotely in in flow at all and it's very much annoying me. I feel like maybe this is how the normal people feel when they are live streaming, where they feel a little, kind of disconnected and like a feeling of, "Am I being remotely interesting? Does anybody wanna listen to what I have to say? Should I just finish the live stream right now?" These are all the things that I'm thinking. Tell me something. I'm waiting for the super flow to come and super flow is just like, "Fuck you bitch. I ain't coming along today at all." Katrina Ruth: We're gonna be in LA quite soon, aren't we? It's only next week that I head back to America. America. I'm gonna go here, there, and everywhere. Who wants to do something fabulous with me in America? I'm doing many things already. I may or may not accept your offer, if you make me one. Katrina Ruth: Do you think I'm having an anxiety comedown? You might be right. Katrina Ruth: Karen says, "I've been in a fowler today too. I desire a full-time nanny." You should get to have whatever you desire, Karen. I'm pointing it to you. I ordained you. I don't know why you need to be ordained in order to have a full-time nanny. "Loved your blog today." Thank you. Katrina Ruth: Well, the blog I'm very happy with. I wrote the blog and I felt fabulous about it. I felt super flow. And now I'm on the live stream and I feel disconnected and grumpy about it. Aftershock. I ate mini white potatoes for dinner though, so I should be feeling better soon. It's my magic food. The more potatoes I eat, the leaner I get, and the happier I get. It's definitely coming ... Katrina Ruth: Lisa says ... Lisa poses an interesting question, she says, "What do you really wanna say, Kat?" What do I really wanna say? I wanna say why are they ... this is something I probably was definitely not gonna say. I wanna say why are there so many fucking men who wanna have sex with me and none of them are here in the Gold Coast? That's what I'm grumpy about. Things I thought I would never say on the internet. Why am I getting so many messages from men who I really do wanna see, and then none of them are here on the Gold Coast, why am I manifesting that none of them are here? That's what I wanna know. Okay. I can't believe I just said that. And I've only had three sips of wine as well. That's my real problem. Katrina Ruth: What's happening? Why am I manifesting all these amazing conversations? And there's a backstory there. And then I'm just creating resistance around the actual physical manifestation because I'm just trapped on the Gold Coast, and everybody knows this, no men to have sex with on the Gold Coast. Well, it's happened on occasion, for sure, but I think I'm creating some kind of block around it. Okay I think I'm going through some kind of Katfession. These are the things that I normally say to Linda, but freaking Linda is upstairs on the training, so now apparently I'm saying them to the whole internet. Katrina Ruth: "Why do I think that is?" Linda's theory is that I don't really wanna have sex with anybody because there's just one person that I wanna have sex with. She has theories, that one. I don't know if she's right or not. She might be, or she might not be. Who knows. That's her theory. Was that Linda who said that? Of course it was. Maybe it was Kelly, I saw Kelly today as well. Katrina Ruth: "Are they actually good enough for you?" They're actually all amazing, is the truth of the matter. That's the truth of it. That is the truth, but there's only one that I'm in love with. My God, what's happening? Am I on some kind of truth serum? Somebody get Linda down very quickly to save me before I keep saying things that I shouldn't say. This is entirely her fault because we did a live stream yesterday about wearing masks on the internet. Katrina Ruth: "Maybe your boobsicles aren't ready for the passion that's gonna get unleashed on them>" the breasts are ready. And they've got full sensation in them as well by the way. One of my friends said she didn't get sensation back for four to six months. I cannot fucking believe I just said that. It's an organic wine, it's obviously the fault of the organic wine. That's the most revealing ... I didn't call this live stream reveal, I called it resolve. I don't know if she's right or not. I refuse to accept that that's the only possible answer. Anything's possible, doesn't make it definite though, does it? I don't know about the answer. I'm like, maybe you're right. Maybe. Maybe not. But that's pretty much what I'm grumpy about. Katrina Ruth: What are we gonna do about it? What are we gonna about it as a community and as a team? I have to decide whether I'm in sexual resistance on purpose. Katrina Ruth: "You need to resolve this." Now I get it. [inaudible 00:20:43]. Thank you Lisa. I need to resolve this situation. Katrina Ruth: Well, I just find it kind of infuriating when you're having four incredible conversations at once with incredible men, and none of them are here. What is that about? But she might be right. She might be right. Maybe I don't really want any of them except for one of them. Everybody fucking knows anyway, it's not exactly a secret. Katrina Ruth: Apparently I should drink more because clearly I can keep my mouth more secretive when I'm drinking than when I'm not drinking. What am I up to. I've had about 50 mils of wine and I'm now saying the most revealing stuff that I've ever said on the internet. Well, the whole point was to drop the mask. "Fly them in." Don't worry I'll see them when I need to see them, but maybe she's right and I only wanna see the one one. Bloody hell. Katrina Ruth: I use inargi all the time. Alright. Well, this is embarrassing. I feel like I should leave now. Who wants to join Empress? Maybe I'll just tell you something. By the way if any of those men are on this live stream, you can just leave right away. Nobody invited you along. Everybody knows what I'm talking about anyway. Everybody who's in my inner circle meaning my ... well, I don't necessarily mean my client inner circle. I mean the inner circle of Kat, but either way. Katrina Ruth: Resolution. Does need resolution. Resolution's always coming. That's true. I trust in the process. I trust in the divine unfolding of all things. One must trust in divine unfolding of all things or what else does one have? Ella. Ella knows many things about many things. That's what I've established since getting to know you, Ella and I don't even know you that well, but I know that you know many things. Katrina Ruth: Now, what am I up to? I'm gonna tell you something to distract you from all my embarrassing reveals. I didn't really say anything at all anyway. You can put two and two together all you like you're only gonna come up with 49 and a half. Here you go. You might as well join Empress. Katrina Ruth: I did the best read out about Empress the other day ... Katrina Ruth: "Maybe you're waiting for men with a golden gun." I feel like I should understand what that means and I don't. Does that make me really dumb or really naïve? Empress is open for registrations, just so you know. Can't really be bothered talking about it but there's a pinned comment there. Katrina Ruth: Here's why I also may be grumpy. I'll give you another reason, I'm just gonna deflect you now. Deflection. I was supposed to go to Barley tomorrow and I've now cancelled. And now I'm like, should I have cancelled? Should I have not cancelled? And I don't know. I'm in a bizarre questioning state. I think what I'm gonna go do tomorrow is buy a house and a car, and that will sort me out. I already planned it though. Katrina Ruth: Okay. I had a friend request here from Fred , can anybody vouch for Fred? He has no mutual friends in common and he appears to be holding a gun in his profile photo. He is holding a gun and somebody just said the man with the golden gun. He appears to have no teeth on one side of his teeth, and I'm not joking. He's holding a gun, it's a big one. Hang on ... Has a lot of tattoos, he looks nice. We should probably stop talking about him. It's not a golden gun. Linda, I've just done something really stupid. Linda: What have you done? Katrina Ruth: Because you weren't here I just told the people on the live stream things that I would normally tell you on an audio. And it was really bad. I'm not kidding. I just said the actual truth about why I'm grumpy. I said because- Linda: Are you still live? Katrina Ruth: Yes. But it's all on now. I said because these four men messaging me amazing conversations and none of them are fucking here on the Gold Coast for me to have sex with them, and that's the real reason that I'm grumpy. Linda: Which group are you living? Katrina Ruth: The whole world. I don't even know what I'm doing. I'm not even drinking wine. I mean, I've had half a glass but ... and then I said, "Let's be honest, we all know the truth is that it's because it's only one that I love." And I've dropped you in it as well while we were at it. Linda: Oh did you? Katrina Ruth: I said that you said it's probably because I only want the one one. Linda: Well, that's true. Katrina Ruth: She doesn't know what she's on about, just 'cause she's the one that hears all my audios all day every day. She's making shit up. This is what happens when you're on a fucking training upstairs instead of being down here for me to talk to. I just start telling the whole incident, the most revealing things in the world. Linda: [laughs]. Katrina Ruth: Anyway, hopefully nobody watches this replay. Katrina Ruth: "An orgasm is being called." Says Karen. I already had many of them, all weekend long. I'm pretty sure I'm up to 20 since Friday night. It's gotta be some kind of Guinness World Book of World Records ... yeah, I need an award for that for sure. Katrina Ruth: I'm not even kidding. I'm on fire. I'm sensually aroused and on fire at the moment. I don't know what's happening. Something's changing in my whole energy system. I was always like it anyway, but it's gone to the next level. Okay. Wait. Alright. I got another message. I was like, don't tell me it's another one but it was Rasheda, so that's fine. It was a woman. Katrina Ruth: "Super flow is on." I don't think the super flow is here. I think I'm just still saying shit that I probably shouldn't be saying on the internet. Well, it's also because we talked about dropping masks last night. Just so you know. Okay. I think she's left now. Linda: What? Katrina Ruth: It's your fault because last night we live streamed about dropping the mask. Linda: Oh it's my fault. Katrina Ruth: You can make a guest appearance if you like. Linda: In my pyjamas. Katrina Ruth: Well, I've got pyjamas on too just on the bottom half. Linda: Hello. Katrina Ruth: I'm blaming you. Linda: Why are you blaming me? Katrina Ruth: Because last night we talked about drop ... Can we share a throne? It's not gonna work. Linda: Our asses are to big. Katrina Ruth: Hey. Linda: Can we take this up? Katrina Ruth: No. You have to look at our breasts now. Linda: You got some lighting going on, girl. Katrina Ruth: Because last night we talked about dropping the masks and now, tonight you're not here to save me and I'm just moping around downstairs, so then I end up telling the whole incident, the things I would normally tell you. Linda: But this is just what happens. Katrina Ruth: No. I've never told the whole internet that before. Linda: You obviously meant to or you chose to. Katrina Ruth: Well, maybe it's a new level of freedom that's coming through. How's your training? Linda: Amazing. Amazing. Katrina Ruth: How many people did you have on your training? Linda: Live 130. Katrina Ruth: Celebrate Linda. Send her a love heart shower. Let's ordain her. I don't know what I'm ordaining you as. Linda: Off the hood. Loving it. Katrina Ruth: As a training princess of the online trainings. Katrina Ruth: Well, last night we live streamed with our capes on about dropping masks. Don't forget to buy my shit by the way 'cause I'm not really in the mood to sell it right now, but just so you know, don't forget. Leave the pinned comment. Linda: I just get so much humour from just staying with you. This is great. Katrina Ruth: Therapy. Linda: This is just ... I'm not- [crosstalk 00:28:23]. What are these things? Katrina Ruth: That's me. Linda: What? Katrina Ruth: [crosstalk 00:28:29]. Katrina Ruth: Send her some more Kat emojis. Linda: What are they? How is that even possible? Katrina Ruth: Send some flying Katrina so that she can see them. We want it all John, don't be offensive. Linda: I want a flying Linda too. Katrina Ruth: Look. Look. Katrina Ruth: I mean, look it says one percent and press play. Linda: Oh my god, this is the best fucking thing I've ever seen in my life. Katrina Ruth: Yeah. Bronwyn made them for me. Linda: I need some of those in my life. Katrina Ruth: And some sex. Oh no, that's me. Linda: This is incredible. I learned something new today. Katrina Ruth: "Where did the flying Katrinas come from?" So, on your phone, you know how on the right hand side you've got the little emojis? And then to the inside left of your emojis on your phone you'll see a little sticker ... you gotta be on your cell phone, your mobile phone. It won't work if you're on your laptop. Linda: Oh my God. Can I do it? Katrina Ruth: Yeah, if you're on your phone and you join my live you can send some flying Katrinas. I'm pretty sure they're devil Katrinas. "You can't send any emojis tonight." Why? Are you on some kind of emoji diet? Have you overdosed on emojis? Have you made a commitment to yourself to not send any emojis for 30 days? Linda: Oh my God, this is like ... Katrina Ruth: The red jackets look like what? Linda: They look like witches. Katrina Ruth: Witches. Yeah. They're devils. They're flying devil Katrinas. I didn't care for that one at all. Linda: Are they holding a spanking thing? Katrina Ruth: Well, that would be normal and appropriate. Linda: Just like last night. And capes. Katrina Ruth: I think I've said enough revealing things for one evening. I call the live stream resolve and I was gonna speak about staying the course, and holding the vision of your goals, and instead I just told everyone how grumpy I am about not having sex right now. Linda: And instead you just unleashed whatever the fuck came out. Katrina Ruth: Don't worry I'll sort it out. Linda: Proper now. Katrina Ruth: I always do. Linda: I think I need me some wine too. Katrina Ruth: I think I need to drink more wine because I'd had one sip of wine and then I just started saying all that shit. I literally said stuff that I would normally just say straight to you, and then I was like, "What am I doing?" Katrina Ruth: "All you can see is bitmojis." Linda: You don't need me anymore, you got them. You just [inaudible 00:30:40] every day in an audio. Katrina Ruth: I cannot get into the habit of telling the whole world the things I tell you. I'd be kicked off Facebook. Katrina Ruth: "It's the wine." Well, I only just had a little bit of wine. Linda: The wine? Katrina Ruth: There's no white wine left in this house, is there? You drank it all. Linda: We can sort something. Katrina Ruth: "Love this so much, Linda." Linda: Thank you. Katrina Ruth: Alright. Send me some emojis. Linda: I have to ... is it on your page? Katrina Ruth: Well, how can we connect to this in a professional and adult way back to the conversation about resolve? Hopefully- Linda: Resolve. Katrina Ruth: Hopefully certain people don't watch this replay. I'm gonna be embarrassed. Linda: Oh my God, that's us. Katrina Ruth: Well, no. Not really 'cause whatever. I might as well just be transparent. Do you know what this is? This is a sign for me to be even more transparent. Linda: I wanna send you some ... Katrina Ruth: You're just gonna send me ... oh no. You gotta press this, that's where the flying Katrinas are ... I don't know. Where's the flying Katrinas? Linda: Or maybe 'cause it's ... Katrina Ruth: This one. This one. This one. I'm gonna send myself my own Katrina's. Oh my God. This is the best day of my life. I've never been ... I'm going crazy about it. I've never been able to do this before 'cause ... I'm just pushing buttons. Linda: This is the weirdest live stream ever. Katrina Ruth: And everybody's been pushing my buttons all weekend. So, I'm just gonna push these buttons. Oh my God. Linda: Look at that. Katrina Ruth: That's the best moment of my life. That is my best live ... one percent, one percent for everybody. Linda: I actually thought they look like witches. Katrina Ruth: Yeah. They do. Alright. I'm very excited. Okay turn it off. She's annoying. Linda: That's you darling. Katrina Ruth: She's speaking over the top of me. Shut it down. Linda: Shut it down. Shut myself down. Katrina Ruth: Get rid of her. Katrina Ruth: Anyway, I just had an important point, was it? How, if you look at the emojis on the left hand side, the cape live stream was professional. We were professional as fuck. If you look at your emojis on the left side of your screen, see? No, left. No, on the right side of your screen, so I'm pointing right 'cause it's mirror words ... mirror- Linda: Is it? Katrina Ruth: You know. Like if I point to our left then it's gonna point to their right. See? And see the little stickers? Linda: They look like witches. Katrina Ruth: They are. That's why I always call them devil Katrinas. Whenever I see them, I'm like, "Look at the devil Katrinas. Katrina Ruth: Leah, we were completely above board last night. We'd had no alcoholic beverages. Linda: None. Katrina Ruth: Actually, it's true because the livestream crossed over past midnight, so we were completely sober for that day because you reset your soberness at midnight right? Linda: I even got told off because I had a proper training tonight and I should be fresh. Katrina Ruth: Oh my God. That's true, you did. Linda: I did. I was so very serious on my training. It was incredible. Katrina Ruth: So, I was gonna make an amazing point. It was really just for me and not for anyone else, but still I wanna get back to it. It was, I think, maybe the reason I just told all of that to Facebook, about my sexual needs ... was maybe it means I meant to express it in a more open way in general. Linda: Maybe. Is that what you'd want to take out of it? Katrina Ruth: I think I already do. Linda: Like what you wanna teach yourself about that situation. About that concept. Katrina Ruth: I don't know. I think I express myself quite well. I don't know why it came out. Linda: Love it. Katrina Ruth: Maybe it wasn't that bad after all. I'm not gonna watch the replay just in case, because I have a personal rule that ... well, the problem ... Katrina Ruth: Blake says he missed my sexual needs. Please tell more. You've exactly hit the nail on the head. Everybody's been missing my sexual needs. Katrina Ruth: Well, what I had said was that I don't understand why I'm having four amazing conversations but none of them are on the Gold Coast. They're all in other places around the world. Linda: 'cause you've created it somehow. Katrina Ruth: But one's here in Brisbane and it's only an hour away but still, it's fucking Brisbane. Linda: Owning it too. I wonder why you created that/ Katrina Ruth: And then the recap version was that Linda in her wisdom and profoundness had said ... and when I said, "Why am I creating sexual resistance?" She said, "Maybe it's 'cause you don't really wanna have sex with them, which I found an annoying because it might be true. Linda: Well. Well. Katrina Ruth: I'm not sure if it is true. Linda: I do say really fascinating and smart things. You know fascinating things come out of my mouth all the time. All the time. Katrina Ruth: I've gotta go to Brisbane tomorrow anyway. I have to go there to see a car. Linda: What are you doing there? Katrina Ruth: I gotta go see a car. That's a true story. You know that. That's a true, above board story. Linda: There's lots of cars. Katrina Ruth: No. That car is in Brisbane. Linda: Okay. Katrina Ruth: The exact one happens to be in the same suburb where somebody lives, which is a coincidence. Katrina Ruth: "Subconsciously you may be revealing." Linda is always fucking right. This is the problem when you have [crosstalk 00:35:47]. Linda: Did you hear that? Did you hear that? Can you do a [inaudible 00:35:49] of that? Katrina Ruth: Could you just clip it out and have her repeat it like a 100 times? Linda: Yes. I will. I'm gonna call your team. Katrina Ruth: Don't worry, I'm always right as well. Oh I will get on a plane, don't worry. I'll get on a fucking plane. No doubt. Linda: [inaudible 00:36:03] steak on your cheek. Katrina Ruth: Yeah. That's happened before for sure. No. I'm seeing the car anyway. I've gotta go buy a car. It's like a James Bond car. Linda: Is it the one you sent me? Katrina Ruth: It's the Mercedes convertible that I was looking at in the [inaudible 00:36:20] the other day, but they had the black one on the Gold Coast, and they've got this gun metal grey one in Brisbane. It looks amazing. It looks like a spy car. So, I'm gonna go look at it. That's a true story. Linda: Like a James Bond car. Katrina Ruth: It's a legitimate non sexual story. I'm not even joking. That's why I'm going- Linda: For once. Katrina Ruth: It's not ... for once. For once. Listen to her. [inaudible 00:36:43]. Linda: I get all the stories behind the scenes, that's why I say for once. Katrina Ruth: Somebody's gotta hear the stories, don't they? It's true. Shotgun. "Yeah, this guy's bad ass." That's right, we forgot about the guy with the gun. Linda: Brandon. Katrina Ruth: What was the resolve comment about? I don't wanna get the car in gold. It should be in pink except I'm already pretty ... Linda: You did speak about a pink car. Katrina Ruth: I can't drive around town in a pink Mercedes convertible because everybody would know where I am all the time. I'm already standing out enough as it is. Don't you think? Linda: Well, you keep breaking the internet every day. Katrina Ruth: It's too much too muchness. Katrina Ruth: "You should have your stickers if you're on your mobile phone. If you're on your desktop then you won't." Katrina Ruth: Brandon wants to WhatsApp you. Linda: What's up? Katrina Ruth: He said what's up. Linda: What's up man. Katrina Ruth: He said that's what's up. Linda: That's what's up. Katrina Ruth: Do you think there's something about [inaudible 00:37:38] energy where we raise the temperature? Because last night I started sweating when we were on the live stream together and now I'm getting over heated again? Linda: Maybe. Katrina Ruth: It never happens on my own normal live streams. I'm like, holy shit. Linda: Gotta put my hair up and take my scarf off. Katrina Ruth: Just so we know, just to maintain a little bit of control back, I'm always right as well. Just so that everybody is aware. Linda: All of us are always right, aren't we? Katrina Ruth: That is true. That's a great point. Linda: According to our truths, we're always right. Katrina Ruth: That's an excellent point. She nailed. It. Linda: See? I told you just fascinating stuff just starts dribbling out of my mouth. I can't help that. Katrina Ruth: That's so good. Linda: It's just- Katrina Ruth: I think you can find a better way to dribble it. Katrina Ruth: Fascinating stuff keeps dribbling out of your mouth. It evolves out of you in an essentially conscious manner. Katrina Ruth: Somebody said super flow. I think it just kicked in. [inaudible 00:38:34], delivered. Katrina Ruth: Now I have to take my pants off. I'm getting really hot. Do I have any pants under this? Linda: Wouldn't surprise me. You do. Katrina Ruth: I'm taking my pants off. Linda: She's taking her pants off. Should I take my pants off too? Katrina Ruth: It's really hot. Linda: I can't take mine ... Katrina Ruth: I'm boiling. Linda: I'm not wearing ... I'm just wearing undies. Katrina Ruth: I'm burning up. Linda: I'm just wearing undies. I'm wearing the same colour. Katrina Ruth: Alright. Well, I put on clothing in order to get on the live stream, but I've got my pyjama shorts on underneath. Clam down. Everybody is just ... calm your tits. Linda: Now we're just talking about tits because your obsessed. Obsessed. Katrina Ruth: Look. You didn't even see my new bra. Linda: That's amazing. Katrina Ruth: That's one of the ones that I got yesterday. Linda: I like it. Katrina Ruth: It's incredible, isn't it? Linda: Yeah. Have you shown them? Katrina Ruth: Nope. Won't. Won't. Linda: I get the goods. I'm so lucky. Katrina Ruth: I got a message earlier from one of my amazing men who said to me, "Why have we not seen your new breast yet?" And I said, "We? Do you mean the royal we? Who's we?" I said, "Well, I suppose you can see them shortly on the live stream [inaudible 00:39:49]." Katrina Ruth: "Turn your phone ..." No. I won't. Linda: No. Katrina Ruth: Inappropriate. What? Linda: What? Katrina Ruth: [crosstalk 00:40:00] my whole breast a live stream? Linda: Was there even something in your existence that there is something called inappropriate? Katrina Ruth: I'm gonna save them for the people that get to see them. Linda: Okay. Katrina Ruth: Which is basically every single woman that I know who's just grabbed hold of them since I've got them, apparently. Linda: I know. The next day I got ... no. When did I ... I came back and you were like, "Look." Katrina Ruth: You were straight in there. You were just like, "Oh yeah." I think you actually said, "Oh yeah." Linda: I'm like, "Oh yeah." They're great. Katrina Ruth: I was like, just standing casually in the kitchen as you do. Linda: It was amazing. Katrina Ruth: "Are you trying to help them find Kat emojis?" I thought it was a conversation about boobs. Linda: We need to put some boob emojis in there as well 'cause everyone wants to see them, and everyone wants to squeeze them, so people can just send you some boos. Katrina Ruth: You're supposed to squeeze them. You're supposed to squeeze them upwards. Linda: But I think that's a great idea. Tell your team. So people can just give you booby grabs. Katrina Ruth: They do anyway. I don't need to tell them. They do it everywhere I go. Katrina Ruth: "Tell the team." Katrina Ruth: Hang on, we were saying something important. You were saying- Linda: Everything is important. Katrina Ruth: You were saying you're always right, which is an excellent point. Linda: So are you. Katrina Ruth: Thank you. Linda: And so are you. Katrina Ruth: Thank you. I'm saying thank you for them. Katrina Ruth: You can send your own thank yous though. Katrina Ruth: It's true. Doesn't it make life just fabulously easy if you're always right? Linda: Yeah. Of course. Katrina Ruth: It means that I didn't do anything embarrassing or stupid after all about what I said. It means it was exactly what I was meant to say. Confessional. As if it's a fucking secret anyway. Linda: The boobs? Katrina Ruth: No, that I really am kind of, only mainly interested in one person. Linda: But I would've noticed. Katrina Ruth: Which bit? Linda: The boos. I think anyone would've noticed even- Katrina Ruth: I was talking about the men. Linda: Oh the men, right. I thought you meant you weren't gonna tell anybody you got boobs done. I'm like, well, people would probably notice anyway. Katrina Ruth: No. Not that bit. I was talking about it's not a secret about the men stuff. What you said. Linda: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Katrina Ruth: But I still maintain that I ... that maybe ... I don't know. I'm stopping right there. Katrina Ruth: But you're definitely always right. I'm coming back to that. Linda: I like that. I've been talking about that all night. I'm always right. Katrina Ruth: We've been ... Have you? On your training? Linda: Oh no. Katrina Ruth: Or just in general? Linda: I could ... Katrina Ruth: We've been talking about that for months though. We've been saying that it's literally impossible to screw anything up because you are always right. Katrina Ruth: Well, I journal that every day. Every day I write I always make the right decision and everything always works out perfectly for me. Linda: Same. Exactly. Katrina Ruth: So, then every time I do something where I'm like, Oh my God I will literally ... you should've seen be earlier, I was like. I can't believe I just said that. Why did I say that? I only had two sips of wine as well. I was like, "What the fuck just happened?" Linda: You can't blame it on the wine though. Katrina Ruth: And I have a rule that I won't delete content online as well. I used to do it a few times. We talked about that stuff yesterday. Linda: Yeah we did. Katrina Ruth: But I did use to do that some years back when I would feel or self conscious about how I put myself out there. Now I have a personal rule that I will just not delete content no matter what. So, I won't delete the live stream even though it could be watched. Katrina Ruth: So, therefore I trust that it was exactly what I was meant to say. Linda: Yeah, of course. Katrina Ruth: I never screw anything up. And everything ... And did I say that everything works out perfectly [inaudible 00:43:15]? Linda: Yeah. Katrina Ruth: Yeah. I always- Linda: That's my belief now. Katrina Ruth: I always make ... It is so [inaudible 00:43:21]. Katrina Ruth: "I can't see them sideways either." I don't know. I can't help you. Linda: Which ones? The boobies? Katrina Ruth: The devil Katrinas. I think she means the devil Katrinas. Linda: Boobies or the devils? Katrina Ruth: No. The angelic boobies, devil Katrinas. Two different things. Katrina Ruth: I started to look [inaudible 00:43:38] two or three years ago. I chose it. You know you get to choose your beliefs people. You just get to choose them. Linda: I like to [inaudible 00:43:44] but I've never done before. I wanna take a photo of that. Katrina Ruth: Take a photo of [inaudible 00:43:47]. Yeah. Great. Why don't you live stream the live stream? Linda: I should. Katrina Ruth: So, I started to look [inaudible 00:43:55] a few years ago but I always make the right decision, everything always works out perfectly for me, I'm on my [inaudible 00:44:02] times, stuff like that, right? [inaudible 00:44:07] and at first it was like, it'd be cool if you believed that or it'd be nice if you believed that, or yeah I can, sort of, maybe start to believe that. Katrina Ruth: Now I 100% fully, completely do believe it. So, even though I feel like I just was very vulnerable and exposed myself, and was a next level idiot beyond what I normally am, I've already [crosstalk 00:44:26]. Linda: Is that even possible? Katrina Ruth: I can't discard any levels of idiocy and clownliness. Clownlyness everyday. But I don't really mean it about the idiocy. I've already shifted it and reframed it, and I'm already like, "Oh well, clearly that was exactly what I was meant to say tonight, and everything's perfect. Linda: Everything's always perfect. All the time. Katrina Ruth: Maybe not only will I be okay with this live stream replay [inaudible 00:44:49] maybe I'll just deliberately point it out. Linda: Maybe. Send it. Sent it. To the Gods. Katrina Ruth: To somebody. Katrina Ruth: Anyway, what say you? Linda: Pardon? Katrina Ruth: What would you like to say? Speak up. Linda: Speak up? Katrina Ruth: Address the room. Linda: Address the room. Katrina Ruth: Sorry I didn't have any wine to offer you... Linda: That's right, where's my wine? Katrina Ruth: You drank the whole bottle. Linda: I don't know but- Katrina Ruth: She doesn't drink red wine. Linda: I don't even normally drink much. Katrina Ruth: That's true. She doesn't. That is true. Linda: And I had a whole bottle of wine last night. Katrina Ruth: Well, yeah. And she doesn't drink red wine. I have enough red wine in here that I could open my own store. I have a seller's worth. Of course, I can't really offer her any though. Linda: It's really odd. I've never even had half a glass of red wine in my life. Katrina Ruth: I'll get some more to make up for it. Linda: Oh for me? Katrina Ruth: Linda has something very profound to tell you. No, for me. Linda: But what about me? Katrina Ruth: What am I gonna get you? Champaign? Linda: Surprise me. Linda: Out on something really funky and come back. Katrina Ruth: Put on something funky? Linda: I mean, take off what you have on and- Katrina Ruth: What? What's happening? Linda: I don't know what's happening. Katrina Ruth: You're just ordering me around. Linda: Do you really trust me on your life with your people? Katrina Ruth: Yeah. Linda: You never know 'cause I never know what's gonna come out of my mouth next. I never know what I'm gonna do next. Katrina Ruth: I'm not getting changed. Linda: You know a lot of people always ask me, "What the hell? Where are you gonna go next? What are you gonna do next? I can't keep up." Well, I can't keep up what I'm doing next. I never ever know. Linda: "Call for red." I don't know. You know what red wine really tastes like to me? Like sour milk. I'm not- Katrina Ruth: Would you like a potato? I can bring you a potato. Linda: No. I don't want a potato. Katrina Ruth: I brought you some kombucha. I've put some [crosstalk 00:46:44]. Linda: I don't like that. Katrina Ruth: I put apple cider vinegar in there just for you. Linda: Oh my God. Katrina Ruth: I just mixed some healthy things together. You don't like kombucha? Linda: No. Katrina Ruth: Take it away. Linda: Fermented- Katrina Ruth: The queen has spoken. Linda: Apple cider vinegar and kombucha, I'm like ... Katrina Ruth: I don't like kombucha either but [inaudible 00:46:59] and Kelly left it here, so somebody had to have it. Katrina Ruth: Alright. Well, what do you want then? Linda: I don't know. I'll go and find my way. Katrina Ruth: Okay. Hang on. I'm gonna [inaudible 00:47:08]. Linda: What is my work about? My work on my work? Which work? Katrina Ruth: The work. Linda: The work. Katrina Ruth: Oh the work. Linda: oh the work. Remember that? Katrina Ruth: What was that? That was like, "We want them to do the work." Oh that's right you've gone, "I want this, this, this, and this, and I want him to do the work." And I'm like, "What work Linda?" "Oh the work." Linda: Oh, the work. Katrina Ruth: That was over a year ago. Linda: That was over a year ago. Katrina Ruth: And then you manifested it like a motherfucker. Linda: I did. Katrina Ruth: And that was the same manner I manifested ... you know ... the Brisbane situation. Linda: Boob side profile. Katrina Ruth: My hair is in the way. I keep the hair there on purpose to keep it gentile. Linda: Are we going all conservative now? Katrina Ruth: Yeah. I'm super conservative. I'm known for ... Can I tell you something? Linda: What happened? Katrina Ruth: Can I tell you something that- Linda: What happened inside that head? Please. Katrina Ruth: I'm gonna tell you something that's gonna shock you. Linda: Tell me. Katrina Ruth: And you're gonna be upset. I think I'm on [inaudible 00:48:16]. Linda: Oh really? Katrina Ruth: So, when I was taking the Mercedes convertible thing for a test drive the other day, we're driving along and the car sales man says to me, "You're in quite the conservative mode, aren't you?" Linda: You told me. Katrina Ruth: Yeah. And I'm like, "Excuse me?" Linda: I'm not conservative at all. Katrina Ruth: I'm like, "Conservative mode?" He's like, "No. I mean the car. There's conservative mode, and sports mode," and I'm like, "Okay." Linda: You were almost offended. Katrina Ruth: I nearly threw something ... Well, I was driving the car, so I couldn't really do much about it. I thought that he was referring to me as being in conservative mode. Katrina Ruth: Alright. Well- Linda: How have I ended up with this? Katrina Ruth: 'Cause I gave you the opportunity to be the speaker. Katrina Ruth: Do you know what resolve is really about? I thought I was gonna come on and speak about resolve, and stay in power, but I already wrote a blog about that when you were upstairs. Linda: Yeah. Where are you going with resolve? Katrina Ruth: Well, I wrote a blog about it. You know the little conversation we had when you sat down when I was eating dinner? Linda: Dinner? Tonight? Katrina Ruth: About staying the course, and holding out for what you really want that's inside of you. I wrote a really good blog about that, it's on my personal page. I wrote that when you went upstairs. I'm very happy with it. So, then I went to do nearly the same topic again for the live stream, which was obviously a silly idea 'cause I don't need to- Linda: That's alright. [inaudible 00:49:40]. Katrina Ruth: Yeah. But I've kind of already done it now, which is probably why my mouth just opened itself like a big flapper and just said random shit that I normally wouldn't say. Linda: And you just dribbled things out. Katrina Ruth: Dribbled it out. Just dribbled it out onto the internet. Linda: That's amusing now. Katrina Ruth: But now ... Thank you Ella about the blog. I was really happy with it actually. I edited it about 18 times while I was in bed upstairs with the kids after they had fallen asleep. And now here we are, but now what I realise what resolve is about is having the resolve to be unapologetically you all the time even when you're saying something where even as you're saying it you're like, "Just shut up, just stop right there. Do not go one word further." Linda: No filter. Katrina Ruth: And then you keep going. And that's ... Well, there you go, you're either being all that you are or you're not. You're either speaking the truth or you've got a mask on. There's no grey area. Linda: But that's the thing. We were talking about masks yesterday. We were talking about being unapologetically you. What's the point even being someone else 'cause you're not living your own life. Katrina Ruth: Exactly. Linda: What's the point about that? Katrina Ruth: But it's a constant [inaudible 00:50:48], isn't it? Because we're both so committed to being unapologetically ourselves, and we both really seek to be transparent online and to speak our truth, and we do. We both message so authentically. But yet you still continue to notice, day by day areas where you're holding back. Linda: Like yesterday. Oh my God this moment. Katrina Ruth: Right. Linda: And I shared it on that live stream yesterday [inaudible 00:51:10]. Katrina Ruth: Yes. That you shared ... you've gotta watch the cape live stream from yesterday if you missed it 'cause Linda shared about that. But even like what I was saying earlier and then like, "Fuck, why am I saying this?" And then it's like, but I'm just saying the truth, but it was like the next level of vulnerability or an area that I wouldn't normally quite confess to. Katrina Ruth: And then you notice that though and the problem is ... here's the problem ... it's not really a problem but it can feel like a problem. The problem is- Linda: I remember once you said something on an audio, "The problem is that I don't have a problem." Or something. Wasn't it something along the lines? Katrina Ruth: No. I think I said my only problem is that I think I have a problem. Linda: Okay. [crosstalk 00:51:46]. Katrina Ruth: Yeah. So, the problem is, what I said earlier on this training, which I'm still like, "Oh my God, I can't believe I said that, that was so stupid. Or embarrassing, or whatever," that now that I've said it thought, I've made myself aware of an area where I wants being fully transparent. Because before I said it I was like, "La, di, da. I'm totally open. I'm authentic as fuck." Linda: As fuck. Katrina Ruth: "I'm the most authentic person on the internet. I tell all the things, I say all the things." And then your mouth is like, "We'll just see about that bitch. How about this one thing that you haven't told anybody?" And then it just pops out. Linda: It dribbles out. Katrina Ruth: My soul just [inaudible 00:52:27] it forth without any prior permission. There was no application put in, is it okay that we speak about this? The soul just does what it wants. So then once it's come out you can't un-know now. I can't take that back. Not that I would, but I now can't un-know. I'm not conscious in a way like, "Oh shit. Here's an area where I've been, kinda, sort of, pretending," but I was buying ... you know you buy into your own bullshit? Linda: Oh yeah. It was fun. Katrina Ruth: Because I would never, and you would never consciously not be transparent. We're always transparent, but it's just a never fucking ending process of dropping into deeper layers of transparency and authenticity. Linda: There's always another lever. Always another layer. It's like I'm finally fully connected to self. I'm finally totally owning every part of me and being me unapologetically, then there's another layer like steak slap almost that just surprises you, goes, "Holy shit. I didn't even know that was there. I didn't know that about myself that that was there. Katrina Ruth: Yeah. Linda: And then you wanna share it. Katrina Ruth: And then once you know though, you can't un-know. And then once you've spoken about it to your audience that's saying you've brought an opposite topic of conversation, then it's like ... sorry, I'm standing on your scarf somehow ... then it's like the doors are open and then the flood gates are open, and it's like, "Well, shall we now continue to talk about this? Maybe, maybe not." But either way it's open. Linda: It's open. Katrina Ruth: It's a new level of transparency. Linda: Once you opened the can of worms you can't ... Katrina Ruth: The worms are coming out. They just come out. They just go everywhere. All throughout the whole house. It's disgusting. Linda: You're disgusting, talking about worms. Katrina Ruth: You brought it up. What? Linda: What? Katrina Ruth: Well, so I think resolve is the resolve to be unapologetically you. It takes courage. It takes a massive fucking amount of courage to remain ... Well to remain ... it takes a massive amount of courage to decide to be all that you are and to share that with the world. Linda: It does. Katrina Ruth: But then it takes a massive amount of ongoing courage to continue to be you because particularly when we are growth oriented we are always ... there's always new areas of vulnerability to go to. Linda: 100%. Katrina Ruth: And there's always gonna be an element of resistance around, "Do I really wanna share that with the world?" Linda: It is an ongoing process. Katrina Ruth: But I don't think you have to share everything. I don't think there's a rule that you've gotta share every single thing as a messenger, right? Linda: No. Not everything. Katrina Ruth: I think [inaudible 00:55:00] what comes out needs to come out. That's my personal rule. Linda: And the things that you wanna share but that you might find an element of, "I'm a bit afraid to share that," but you know that you wanted to share it but you're afraid of that, that's what you should definitely share. Katrina Ruth: Totally. You always know what you're meant to share. Often times clients will tell me about a situation in their life that's very vulnerable, or very intimate, or whatever it might be. And they'll say, "Should I write about this? Because I'm not being authentic if I don't write about it or something like that." And I'm like, "Well, no. There's not a rule that you have to share all your shit. That's not a rule." To me personally ... well, [inaudible 00:55:36], but for me personally the rule is, if it's coming out of me like it wants ... if it's dribbling out as Linda would say ... I prefer to say if it's being unleashed, I think it sounds more bad ass than dribbling ... if it's unleashing itself, if it wants to share itself, like I look at the message as its own entity, right? Linda: Entity? Katrina Ruth: Like it starts to come out of you. Like that just came out of me. I was like, "Stop. Stop." I was like a zip up emoji but it didn't work. It just went- Linda: As if you even have a filter on you. You don't have a filter on you. Katrina Ruth: I never said that before. Linda: I don't think you do. Does she? I don't know. I don't hang around with her every live stream. Katrina Ruth: I say some [inaudible 00:56:16]. Linda: But I hear it all behind the scenes. Katrina Ruth: Yeah. You do. Katrina Ruth: I say some pretty full on shit. Linda: I'm like, she does not have a filter. Katrina Ruth: That exact particular area I've somewhat got it in what I say or don't say. For reasons. But I think that my rule is that once it starts to come out, I have to get out of the way and let it out. My job is to be the vessel, not to be in charge of which bit of the message gets to come out. So, I'm not gonna ever deliberately make myself say something just because I could. I'm not like, let me write down all my inner most shit every day and then share it with the internet. No. I just share what comes out. Katrina Ruth: So, then if a new area of vulnerability starts to present itself to the world, and dribbles forth, than my job is to get out of the way and let it, and shut the fuck up and let it. Linda: See? It is dribble. Katrina Ruth: Dribble. It's a true thing. Linda: It just comes out. Katrina Ruth: I wouldn't have built this business if I didn't learn to get out of my own way and let the message be the message. I say it to my clients all the time, "Let the message be the message. Let the art be the art. You don't decide." Linda: You're just the messenger. Katrina Ruth: You are. You are. You don't decide, "Is that an appropriate message or should I say that, or can I say that?" Linda: Hi beautiful Claire. Katrina Ruth: You let it out. Katrina Ruth: Hello. I already said hello to you but hello again. Linda: Claire you were on my live feed earlier, on my training earlier. And now you're here. Katrina Ruth: She said that. Linda: We just swap from one thing to another. Katrina Ruth: She was saying that when you first came down. Linda: That's so cool. That training was so good. Katrina Ruth: Bad ass. Linda: That was bad ass. Katrina Ruth: Well ... Linda: There's a lot od dribble that came out, in and out on that one. Katrina Ruth: There you go. Resolve to be unapologetically you. That's my message for you this evening. Linda: We got there in the end. Katrina Ruth: I got there in the end. I revealed many things that I had no intention of revealing. Feel a little exposed, but it's nothing new. It's just what I'm here for. I'm merely here to serve and to apparently just reveal my most inner most shit to the internet for the entertainment of everybody else. So, I hope you appreciated it. Katrina Ruth: You can send me gifts. It's PO BOX 861, Surfers Paradise, Queensland 4217. Linda: She's actually serious too. Katrina Ruth: Yeah. Everybody does. I like bordeaux, Guylian Seashell chocolates ... Linda: [inaudible 00:58:45]. Katrina Ruth: I got a lot of that. You already gave me some last week. Linda: Almond butter. Katrina Ruth: Yeah. Linda: Peanut butter. Katrina Ruth: Peanut butter I'm not supposed to have too much but it is good. Linda: But certain brands. Katrina Ruth: I feel like I could have a new cape at some point. Linda: Do you have chocolate? Katrina Ruth: We didn't have that much ... there might be a box of Guylians Seashells in the bedside drawer of your bedroom upstairs actually from when I was sleeping in there the other week. Linda: Oh. I know her dirty secrets. Katrina Ruth: What else do I like? What would I like for a gift? Linda: Onions. Katrina Ruth: No fucking onions. Linda: No onions. Katrina Ruth: Send a criovacced fillet. Buffalo. I'd like some bison. Send some freaking Canadian meat please. We got plenty of sweets here already. Linda: What kind of meat are we talking about? Katrina Ruth: Bison. Brandon sent me a bison. Send it criovacced, or whatever the word is. You know where it's shrink wrapped. Linda: You're asking me meet questions? Katrina Ruth: I'm sorry. Linda: How dare you? Katrina Ruth: I'll take some bordeaux, some seashell chocolates, I'll take a bison, please have it sliced first, I don't wanna have to deal with that, and I'll take another cape. Linda: There's one here. Katrina Ruth: Rainbow colour like Josephs technicolour dream coat. And I need a new sceptre. This one's looking wonky. Linda: Is that what's it's called? Katrina Ruth: Yeah. It's a sceptre. Linda: I didn't know that. Katrina Ruth: It looks a little wonky. Linda: English is my third language, so I'm still learning. Katrina Ruth: Third? Linda: Mm-hmm (affirmative)- Katrina Ruth: What's the second one then? Linda: Swedish is first. Katrina Ruth: Oh Swedish. Linda: Yeah. I went to a Swedish school and Finnish is second. English is third. Katrina Ruth: English is my first language. I have other languages too. Linda: Like? Katrina Ruth: Nobody knows I speak other languages. I'm listening to you always when you're speaking and you think I can't understand you. I'm reading your sales pages too in your other languages. I know many things. Many things. Linda: She speaks the language of the soul. Katrina Ruth: And I would like ... I would really like a purple MacBook. This is rose gold, which is quite nice. Linda: Is there a purple one? Katrina Ruth: Somebody can organise it for me, I think. Can somebody organise it? I want a purple one to match all my purple. Linda: Well, you can have anything you want. Katrina Ruth: Hot pink as well. I want a hot ... Somebody send me a hot pink MacBook, PO BOX 861 Surfers Paradise, Queensland 4217, and I'll take a purple one. Linda: Can you just send it ... can we order two? I'd like one too. Katrina Ruth: Linda wants one too. Linda: I want a purple one too. Katrina Ruth: "What about a sequin dress?" They're scratchy, but I've got that silver one that I wore on my photo shoot [crosstalk 01:01:12]. Linda: That was hot. Katrina Ruth: That's upstairs stuffed into a small bag. Linda: That was amazing. It was like this almost. Katrina Ruth: It's more bling bling. I feel like there's one important gift that I'm missing. Linda: A man? Katrina Ruth: No. I already know exactly where that is, don't worry. That's it then. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go check my PO BOX and see what gifts I've received. Katrina Ruth: Alright. Well, I feel like we covered nothing at all that we intended to but as normal it was amazing. Please read the pinned comment if you like to learn how to do business like this. I don't know if it was the best advertisement ever. Do read the pinned comment, read about everything. Linda: Just do whatever you want. Katrina Ruth: Have an amazing rest of the day. We're gonna go and talk about many things about ya know. Katrina Ruth: Don't forget, life is now, press play. Linda: Bye bye.

Linda: Has it already happened? Katrina: Yeah. It still says starting. Get your head in the picture, because otherwise you're revealing the trick about our cushions. When your head when down, it just looked like a weird cushion arrangement behind us. Linda: There's some crazy talking going on over here. Katrina: Get rid of it. Kill it dead. Linda: What is this? Katrina: Is that a cage to keep humans in? Linda: Oh my God! No, he's wearing pants. Katrina: What are you doing? Linda: He's wearing pants, it's okay. But I got excited there for a minute. Katrina: Creepy cage for humans. Linda: Hello! Katrina: I'm just getting a little insight into this YouTube selection. Alright. Linda: Hi, we need to pay attention to this. We're here. Katrina: We're present and in attendance. I was on a plane like an argon, I'm just like a freaking professional. Linda: You literally just walked up. Katrina: I just walked off a plane. There might have been three full-blown temper tantrum on that plane had by one of my children. It was much wine required. Linda: And, this took a little bit of time. Let's just be - Katrina: This took a little bit of time to make the set fabulous. Wait, wait. I haven't even shared this. Only on my business page. I'm going to share it to my own page. Hang on, everybody. Just wait. You're going to have to wait. I'm just going to entertain you. Linda: I'm going to entertain you. Katrina: I'm sitting with what will come out of me, I'm unsure. Linda: We were about to call ... What were we going to call the live feed? Katrina: You wanted to call it "Whatever the Fuck Comes Out." Which is actually very accurate. Linda: Yes, we have this amazing set up going on. Katrina: It is amazing, look at it. Hang on, we've had a cushion fail. Linda: Oh my God. Katrina: There's been a cushion fail already. Linda: Fail. Katrina: Hello, hello, hello people in my live stream. Linda: Hello, kids and hello people in mine. We should introduce each other. Katrina: Oh that's an idea. People could just figure it out. Linda: People could just figure out who we are. It would be pretty cool if I choose you to my people. My people. You introduce me to your people. Katrina: That's impressive between peoples. Begin, begin. Begin while I share this. I'm going to share it into my group and then to my other page. Linda: Aw look, that's us. Katrina: We look amazing. It is what it is. Linda: Katrina Routh is a serial internet breaker. Katrina: That's actually true. She just wrote me a small, beautiful card. And in there it's some flowers and my favourite chocolates, and some vegemite. Linda: She deserves it, let's face it. Katrina: I came home to this little, I'm going to call it an alter, to me. But in the card- Linda: It was an expression of love. Katrina: But in the card she said, "to the woman who breaks the internet every day." Linda: I did, I did. Katrina: It was beautiful, actually. Thank you. Linda: No worries, well thank you. For having me in your space. But I mean, who wouldn't want to have me in your space. Katrina: All the time. Thank you M.D. alright, last introduction. I think I [inaudible 00:03:22] your introduction. Linda: You did. That's all she cares. No, I'm kidding. Katrina: You can figure the rest out. Linda: She breaks the internet, apart of that, she's my soul sister friend and she's a kick ass entrepreneur. I really, really honour and admire how much she's standing on truth and just kick ass on the internet. Katrina: And all. Thank you. For those who don't know the amazing, talented, and fabulous Linda Docta, here she is. I've prepared her in the flesh earlier. Many of you know us both and follow us both, but for those who don't know, Linda is one of the ... I'm going to say it this way, because this is the simplest way to explain just how highly I think of this one. Linda is one of the few people in the world whose post I consistently read because she's an incredible messenger and writer. And you know, I'm a content creator, not a consumer. I don't consumer a lot of content from other people. I do consume some people. I consumer some people, and I consume some people's content. But Linda's posts are incredible. She's an incredible [inaudible 00:04:37]. You're one of the few people who is not afraid to say what's actually inside of her, and to share what's coming from the soul. As you know, that's what I believe its all got to be about. That's just one reason why we gt along so well. We have a relationship that is predominately on, somewhat, almost an embarrassing amount of audio messages per day. That goes back and forth from all around the world. Linda: They do. Even in the house. When was it? Before you went to Melbourne. You were downstairs, I was upstairs. And you were audioing me and listening to my audio. Katrina: So we don't hang out in person that often, but Linda's here staying in my home for a few days before she jets off again. And often, I don't know, I'm over in American and she's in Sydney, or I'm in Bali and she's in Melbourne, or wherever we are. Now you're going to be in other places around the world, and I'll be here. That's how it is. So we don't see each other in person that often. What just happened? Okay, Linda's phone literally just turned itself off. Katrina: Alright, well you're going to reboot your phone and we're going to start again. Linda: What is this? Katrina: That's it, you broke the internet. Linda: I did break the internet. Katrina: You can't go around saying shit like that. Linda: It's okay, I'm going to share your post onto my ... Oh. Katrina: Yeah, but that shouldn't have turned itself off. Linda: I don't know. Katrina: Oh, well that's because of that. The turned off because that turned off. Linda: Yeah, it did. Katrina: Linda's phone just completely powered itself down. Linda: We're just going to do it on one phone. Katrina: Just start it again, I reckon. So, we don't meet in person. Katrina: Would you want to put yours back on again? Do yours. Katrina: We don't meed in person too often, but then when we do, it's like no time has passed because we're speaking on audio all the time, every single day, and that's how I feel about all my soulmate people around the world. You sometimes feel confused as to when you last saw them in the physical world because you're connecting with them in other worlds so continuously, right? But anyway, she came in here, when was is? Thursday last week or something. And I'm downstairs eating my little midnight snack, as I do, standing at the kitchen bench. Katrina: Okay, let's wait until this starts again. And we'll tell the story. And I'll just tell it anyway because it might take a while to get going. Yeah so, I'm downstairs in the kitchen, which is just through there. And I'm listening to audios as I do often at 1 A.M. or something, and so then I'm listening to Linda's audio message, and then I realise she's actually upstairs in the bedroom, in one of the spare bedrooms. I'm like, "Oh my God, I'm so addicted to listening to audios from you that I'm still listening to audios from you when you're in my house, upstairs, sleeping." And then I'm writing back. Even though I'll see her in the morning at 6 A.M. I'm like, "I can't wait for that, I'm going to need to audio now." Linda: Peoples! We broke the internet. Yes, I already did tag that girl. She's tagged. Peoples, we already broke the internet. Katrina: Linda's phone spontaneously combusted itself. Linda: It did. Katrina: Self-combusted. So, anyway. You missed the story over there on Linda's side. Linda: Sorry, guys. Katrina: Sorry about that. Linda: She was just telling an awesome story, and I kind of feel a bit like I should have gone more with my intro about you. Because that was really beautiful, thank you for that. Katrina: You made me an altar. Linda: I did. Katrina: That was pretty next level. I've got to take a photo of it, later. Linda: Oh I've got to post that stuff. But that was a beautiful expression, because what you said about speaking truth, because I'm just a reflection of you. You know that, right? You are a woman who just stands in her power, in her truth. Katrina: Thank you. Linda: And you always have been. You're just not afraid to say what's flowing through you. Katrina: It's sometimes scary, though. But thank you. Linda: Yeah, no it's amazing. I admire that. Katrina: Well it's been agreed we're both amazing. I just think we can finish there. Linda: See you, later. Cheers! Katrina: Cheers to being amazing. Linda: Cheers. And this is funny because I never drink. [inaudible 00:08:37] Katrina: Never, never. Linda: I feel so naughty. Katrina: Continually breaking the internet now. Well my new programme is part of the internet, so it's only appropriate. But, it is so relevant because the more you stand in your power and in your truth, isn't it true that you're just going to attract in those soulmate people who stand in their truth, and so then you honour that person, like I honour you, for the way you sharpen them, you're honouring me. And then it's just going to turn into a never ending cycle of we both think the other one is amazing, which means that it's a reflection of us. Linda: Yeah! Katrina: It just keeps going. Linda: It's like, you're amazing. No you're amazing. You're amazing. Katrina: Exactly. Linda: And then, it ends up being an altar on the kitchen table. Katrina: You end up coming home off a flight from the other side of the country, and you walk in and your soul sister forever finds you an altar on the kitchen table, vegemite included in the altar. Linda: You know what I should have done? I should have just laid myself down on the table, naked. Katrina: You're reminding me of this thing from Sex and The City, where the guy lays ... No, she's about to lay down naked with sushi all over her body. What's his name? The young guy that she's dating? And then he doesn't come home, though. And then she's laying there on the table for hours covered in sushi, and he just never comes home. He comes home like four hours later or something. And she's still laying there covered in sushi. Katrina: Okay, I was going to do a nice segue into the conscious relationships conversation, but instead we're talking about Samantha from Sex and the City covered naked in sushi. Linda: See, we should have called it Whatever the Fuck comes out. Katrina: Well we were just saying, it is the perfect union to the topic of conscious relationships, which may or may not be what we talk about. Because it will be whatever the fuck comes out. Linda: Exactly. Katrina: But that's ... People say to me all the time, I'm sure you hear this as well. But probably one of the most common things I do hear from people in my community is what an amazing friendship, when they see me with my soul sister friends, right? Like I'll get comments on that a lot, like, "Wow, what an incredible, beautiful friendship." Okay, oh my God. Jermaine literally just wrote what I'm talking about. She wrote, "Gorgeous ladies, #soulmatefriendgoals." Linda: Aw, that's amazing. Thank you. Katrina: So I hear that all the time because I do only have women in my life who are deep, soul sister connected friends. Deep soul sister, however you want to say it. And that's definitely ... Katrina: Okay, you have a marriage proposal over there. I think we should address it. Linda: Aww. Katrina: That's not a wall, actually, Maria, that's a painting that my sister-in-law painted for me. It's not a wall, it's a painting. Linda: Do we need to address this marriage proposal? Katrina: Linda's been proposed to. Linda: I've been proposed to. Katrina: On her live steam. Linda: What should I say? Katrina: We'll consider your offer. We'll get back to you. Linda: Let me sit with it. Katrina: What does your soul say? Linda: Stop, stop now. Stop now. Katrina: What does your soul have to say about this? What are we going to talk about? Where is this conversation going? Linda: I don't know. Katrina: Do you think that life just gets better and better and easier and easier? Linda: I think so. Katrina: Do you think that we have almost an inappropriate amount of fun, except that nobody realises that you meant to have so much fun all the time? Linda: Yeah but here's the thing. I go in and out of having a lot of fun and then sometimes I get very, very serious in my work. Katrina: Sometimes you get a litter angry. Linda: What do you mean? Katrina: When the passion really comes out. Warrior Linda. Linda: You've had some amazing audio from me lately. Katrina: I've seen the warrior ninja come through a few times. I've seen the [inaudible 00:12:13] ninja, as well, in fact it was doing back flips in my bedroom the other night. Linda: She calls me an "it." Katrina: I meant the ninja. I'm calling it an it, it's an extension of you. Okay, go, you were saying about getting serious. Linda: No, but I have another story. See, I swap stories. I'm a Gemini, just to let you know. I'm a Gemini, so I start a sentence, and then I never finish. And I start another one, I don't finish that either. So I start three different stories in one go. Katrina: And then meanwhile, I'll be doing the exact same thing [inaudible 00:12:46]. Linda: And then she cuts me off and we never get anywhere. Katrina: So, if you're hoping to take some kind of orderly notes from this evening's session, we're going to need to let you know that's not going to happen. But sit back, buckle up, enjoy the ride, and trust you will receive whatever it is that you'll hear divinely to receive. Linda: Whatever your soul is wanting to receive, it's always the perfect timing. Katrina: Exactly. Linda: What I was saying - Katrina: You said sometimes you get really serious. Linda: No, before that. There was another story that cuts off what I was saying. I need to finish this story, first. Katrina: Just let it come on. Linda: It comes out really fast. So, only today, because you were talking about the ninja stuff. I only got a reminder in my phone, in my memories, that it was only a year ago exactly, I was competing in the ninja championship. Katrina: Was that already a year ago? Linda: Yeah, yep. It was. Katrina: So cool. Linda: So what I was saying before the ninja, that yeah, I feel myself going in and out of having a lot of fun, and fun is one of my highest values. Katrina: Yeah. Linda: And play vibrates the same as prey. Play is one of the highest vibrations, so - Katrina: Explain that. Linda: Imagine having fun, like think about the vibration you're in when you're having fun. Like think about how you're actually feeling, there's no ego when you're just full of joy. When you just ... you're immersed in this bubble of love and joy. An ego doesn't exist in that moment, it's just an embodiment of excitement, fun, love. Katrina: You're completely present. Linda: Exactly. You're fully present. Katrina: An ego can't be there when you're completely present. Linda: No, it can't. Katrina: I just had breakthrough moment, already. Not being a smart ass, either, it sounded slightly like I was. Isn't that a powerful concept. Linda: Is it. It is. And I continue to remind myself to have fun, because sometimes I feel like, oh shit, maybe I'm just caught up too much in my serious side, or introspection. Katrina: You are one of the most fun people I know and I'll give you a case study. Linda: Case study? Katrina: Case study. Linda: I cannot guarantee what she's going to say tonight, so. Katrina: It's not that outrageous. But one time I wanted to take my friends to the indoor ... children's ... my friends? - I wanted to make my children to the indoor, you know they have the indoor play centres, right? It was a really rainy Saturday on the Gold Coast sometime last year, back in [inaudible 00:15:14]. My kids are driving me crazy, I'm like, I've got to go to the indoor play centre, but I was like, I need some adult time. I was actually just losing my shit. And I was like, "Who can I invite to come to an indoor kid's play centre with me?" And all my friends who had kids were occupied or busy already, and I'm like which of my friends who doesn't have kids could I invite to come to the indoor play centre with me? I'm like, Linda. Obviously. Katrina: So I audioed her, I'm like, "Hey do you want - it's called Juddlebugs - I'm like do you want to come to Juddlebugs?" She's like, "What's Juddlebugs?" I'm trying to describe it, I'm like "There's like a netting thing you get trapped in and you fall down, and there's slides and you can shoot people and then there's a foam pit." And she's like, "How have I never heard of this?" Linda: And I was going off on you. How dare you not tell me there's a place called Juddlebugs? How dare you? Katrina: But we had the best afternoon. We got trapped upside down in the spiderweb for an unreasonable ... We nearly did a live stream up there. Linda: We did, almost. Katrina: That would be inappropriate. But you are a fun orientated person and I think I've learned a lot about having fun. Kids themed party for adults, that's an awesome idea, AJ. Linda: Oh, yeah. Was I having this conversation with you, AJ? We need to create, yeah you were only saying that the other day at breakfast, yesterday. Katrina: Yeah, I've learned a lot about having fun from you, but I think that that concept of there being no ego in it, is really, really interesting and really powerful. And it's a reminder that if we can get into being present, then I think ... Okay, fun is one thing, then I think we also, that is the place where we access our highest [inaudible 00:16:53] areas, in terms of, for example, greatest creative flow, right? I know that when I get into silliness, playing, silliness, being frivolous, maybe a little bit reckless, or kind of making a fool of yourself, that sort of thing, sometimes I don't know, I'd be curious to know if you feel this way, sometimes when I get really silly and really kind of frivolous and lighthearted, I'll feel a slight shame feeling afterwards. For self-consciousness, where I feel a little - Linda: Like you're judging yourself? Katrina: Do I embarrass myself, did I make a fool of it? Linda: The ego comes back in? Katrina: Yeah, the ego's coming back in afterwards. But then, at the same time, and I'll notice it afterwards, and it feels kind of like a walk of shame type of feeling. Like, did I really do that? And the thing is though, that I don't allow that to infiltrate me and stop me from going wherever I go in my energy when I'm on a live stream, for example, or whatever it is I'm doing in any situation. Because I know that I get into such an amazing creative flow and I get all the downloads when I'm in that place. But then afterwards, my human mind will come back in and be like, "Oh you probably pushed it a little too far," or, "You're making a fool of yourself," or, "People probably think you're off your head." All my judgements come through. Linda: Yeah, yeah. Katrina: But I still do it. I still do it. I notice them and observe them. I'm like, "Okay, thank you for showing up and telling me all the reasons I'm not good enough. I'm going to keep going anyway." Linda: Yeah, yeah. It's amazing to be your own observer. Here's the thing, we all have an inner child within us. We all have an inner child, and sometimes when we get in on this conscious journey of growth and conscious growth and there's ego and then there's a spiritual ego that can come and slap - Katrina: Oh, that's a [crosstalk 00:18:39]. Linda: Yeah, yeah. So I've definitely been wacked left, right, and centre by the spiritual ego sometimes. As you start moving through this experience, you go into that judgement of, "Now I can't be silly because I'm conscious or spiritual." Katrina: Ah, I so nearly put a post up tonight, I'm not even kidding, the only reason I didn't post this on Facebook an hour ago is because I just posted to say we're going to do this. Linda: Well, see, who's a mind reader. Katrina: And I nearly wrote something like, "Be careful not to get so fucking involved that you can't," I don't know. I can't even remember what then ending of what I was going to say is. That like, you become so freaking involved that your whole thing is how involved you are. Linda: Yeah. Katrina: Be careful of the ego that is attached to walking around being like, "Oh I've had all the ego deaths." Yeah, but that's ego, so. And we all do it. Spiritual ego. Linda: Yeah, it's a very interesting concept and to ... I love being my own observer of just allowing myself to be with ease, I don't go into judgement that often. I'm like, "Okay, that was a fascinating, internal response." Katrina: Right, that's similar to what I'll say to myself, like curiosity. Linda: Yeah, it's like, okay. Katrina: Observation. Linda: Okay, that was fascinating. I'm interested why I responded internally that way. Katrina: Yeah, that was an interesting [inaudible 00:20:06]. Linda: And still, I've moved away from that judgement , I'm just like, "I wonder where that came from?" Katrina: Yeah, that's actually really similar to ... I talk about that a lot with clients, as well. I definitely still have those self judgmental reactions come through, but the way that I persist them is curiosity or lightheartedness. My two favourite ones. Linda: Really important. Katrina: When I say lightheartedness, let's say you said something or did something, maybe on a Facebook live like this, or maybe in a one-on-one conversation with somebody, and you really feel that you went quite far with vulnerability and you exposed yourself, and then you go out of that situation and you feel like a need to protect yourself or you feel like maybe you went too far and you put yourself in some vulnerable space or place, and then maybe the judgements comes up, like it could either be, "Yeah, well that was an interesting choice, I wonder why I chose to do that, let me get curious about that," or it could literally be like, "Oh, how silly, how cute. That's really funny, I wonder why I chose that." Or it could even be you did something that really caused some sort of sabotage, right? We've both spoken publicly many times about backgrounds of self-sabotage, and then those old patterns can sometimes try to continue to knock on the door. Many times, people ... I don't want to call it relapse, maybe not the best word, not my favourite word anyway. But many times, people will pick up an old sabotaging pattern and then they'll tend to feel like, "I'm bad, and I'm weak willed, and I got to hate on myself, and why did I do this?" Katrina: And instead, and I speak about this a lot with a lot of clients who have struggled with binge eating and if the binge eating comes back ... I have bulimia for 10 years, so I understand it, right? And they'll be like, "Oh my God, this is fucked up, what did I do?" And I'm like, "Wait no, what if instead, it was 'Oh, wow. I wonder why you needed that? Let's get curious about that. What was it inside you that needed that?'" Or also, even to smile about something that perviously felt so heavy and to make it lighthearted. It takes the power out of it and actually gives you back your power. Linda: Yeah, yeah. And conscious, when I say, because we said in the title "Conscious Relationship" it's not just conscious relating with another person or in an actual partnership or relationship, it's also how we're consciously relating to ourselves and what kind or relationship we're having to ourselves. Katrina: 100% Linda: And I think that's even more important to dive into, because if you don't understand yourself, then how can you consciously relate to another human being, if you don't understand your own ways of internal response and dimension and your operation system. Katrina: Yeah, I love that, and it's funny because I think when we said we'd talk about conscious relationships, we said that to each other earlier today, and I think we sort of thought, relationships with other people, but when I was on the plane just before, I was thinking, I feel like this is going to be more about the relationship with self, because the place that we create epic relationships with other people from, even an amazing friendship, an amazing client-mentor relationship. I always say that my clients, so many clients, it wasn't always that way. It could be a romantic relationship, as well. All the different relationships. In order to call it or allowing or flowing to incredible incredible conscious relationships with other individuals, we have to first be in an incredible conscious relationship with our own selves. Linda: Absolutely. Katrina: And in a space of non-judgment, understanding, compassion, and full acceptance. Linda: I only wrote a blog about that this morning. That I got inspired by someone who asks me yesterday, "Linda, why haven't you been swept off your feet yet?" And I didn't get triggered or anything like that, it just simply inspired me to talk about it openly and to express myself why that is, and just put a little slightly different perspective on it, as well. And take it into the relating with self, because if we want someone to show up for us, if we want someone to be present with us, we have to be present with ourselves, first. We have to show up for ourselves, first. Linda: Quite often, we're longing for something, we're wanting, we're even needing. So there's a needing ness and you are filling a void within us, that we haven't even actually given ourselves. And if we're not giving ourselves, then how can we truly experience that outside of ourselves? Katrina: Well you learn you receive from others what you're giving to yourself. That's the reality. So if you feel, maybe sometimes you get frustrated or angry, this happens a lot with coaches and with their clients, and it happens with men and women in romantic relationships, it even happens in friendships and family dynamics, also. I guess I hear it fairly frequently in the coaching industry, "I seem to have all these clients who are behind on their payments," or whatever, right? Some sort of pardon like that. And it's always like, "Okay cool, this is great, this is great feedback and information because this is a great opportunity to look at where am I not honouring myself?" Linda: Absolutely. Katrina: And yeah, the think with relationships that I think sometimes we all forget, I know give forgotten this or put it aside at times, is there'll always be instability there. The goal is not to get to some sort of place of done, sorted, everything's predicted and predictable. Imagine how fucking boring that'd be, anyways. But it's growth, relationships are there for our growth, right? Exactly, AJ just that's where we attractively show our voids. Linda: Yeah. Katrina: So when you have people in your life, any area of your life, who you feel like their causing you to feel something, it's always "Wow, thank you, because this allows me to see an area in myself where I wasn't paying attention, where I wasn't honouring myself." Can I give an example that's a little bit naughty? Of course I can. Linda: Are you asking for permission? Katrina: I don't know. I don't know. When I was on the live stream last week, Chris told me not to swear, I was like, "What?" But it's because we were going to use it for a Facebook ad. I'm like, "Mother fucker." He's like, "You can't swear." I'm like, "What do you mean I can't swear?" Katrina: Okay, so I had an awareness only very recently, actually. I had always thought, not always, but I had frequently felt frustrated that when I have sex with Mare, he would very rarely pay attention to my breasts. All men, I don't mean one individual man, right? But it was a pattern that I noticed. I felt frustrated that men would just kind of ignore my breasts. They would sometimes even just leave my top of and just go down there, and not always, but a high percentage of the time. And I definitely had a story in my head that this is because I have fairly small breast and that's the reason why. And I was 100% certain about that. And then, long story short, I realised that, "Holy shit. I never give my breasts love and attention. I never pay attention," previously never. I was never paying them attention, I was not giving them any love, any touch, any affection, I didn't really consider them ... I didn't dislike my breasts at all, actually I find them very practical for fitness reasons, but if we take that story even further back, though, and I did blog about it. Yeah, Marie, I did blog about it a week or two ago. Katrina: Because I'm actually having breast enlargement surgery in two days. And I'm so grateful I realised all this before that was coming through, right? Because that's coming from a place of desire, not from a place of trying to fill a need. But with this, if you go back even further, when I was a teenage, I had really big boobs. And when I was in my late teens. And people would comment on it often and I would wear low cut tops often, and I wasn't heavy either. I just actually had big boobs. But then I would learn from my mom, about be careful because men are going to whatever. I got the message that I was being too sexual, and I really think when I look back now, I think I manifested them way. Because now look, they're like an A cup or whatever, they're a small B, maybe. But yeah, it was just this interesting realisation of I'm walking around going, "What the fuck is with these dudes that don't take the time to touch the rest of my body because that's what I really want and that's really what opens you up as a women, to have that attention to all areas, not just, obviously." Katrina: Whether or not it's obviously, if it's not obvious, now you know. Welcome. And then I'm like, "Oh my God, holy fucking wake up call. I get to love on myself in that area." And I'm not kidding, within four days of when I started to give attention in that area and then I had a sexual experience and it was like, "Yeah, I'm like ..." Linda: But see, this flows into all areas of life. It's not just what we experience with relationships. It's actually in all areas. So I'm just going to invite you into a moment of introspection and to really reflect on in what area of your life are you feeling that, "Oh I'm not receiving what I'm actually wanting?" And you're kind of blocking yourself from that. In what area of you're life, is it maybe money, it is money stuff? What's your relationship with money, how you speak to money, what do you feel about money? If you're someone who wants to contentiously create that or you want to consciously create a beautiful relationship, or experience certain things. Then you have to look inside, first, and check in, are you giving yourself that? That was a beautiful example. That was a really beautiful example. Katrina: And that's a physical example, but it's also with the emotional stuff. Linda: Yeah, yeah. Katrina: And any time we're looking for something to fill a need in us, money is a great example, if I had that money then I'd be safe, I'd be free, then I'd be credible, then I'd be good enough. It's always like, "Oh, wow." As soon as you realise that, how can I give that to myself. Well actually, how you can give any of these things to yourself is to decide to. It's not something you've got to go out and work for. You can do it in this moment. Linda: Absolutely. It's simply a choice. It's decision to do so in an instant because we can so easily get caught up, and like you said before, when I get there, then I'll be good enough. When I lose this weight, then I'll feel good enough, or then I'll feel beautiful. Or that was just one example. Katrina: Or when I make the money then I'm safe or then I'm worthy. Linda: Then I'm successful. Katrina: Then I can relax in my life, then I can have fun in my life, then I can be happy. Or when somebody loves me then this, then this, then this. So anything that we're putting onto a pedestal like that, we're saying, "If I have this thing outside of myself, then I can experience and live in the emotions and energies that I desire." It causes you to actually push it away. It means that you hold the thing that you want at arms length, it's a lesson that you've got to learn. Is that you get to give that to yourself. So when you continue in that pattern, it's kind of like, "Oh, okay cool. I see that you just want to keep learning that same lesson again and again and again." Interesting choice. Linda: Isn't it interesting when the universe continues to teach you the same lessons until you learn? I'm just reflecting back on some of my own patterns, and like, oh my God. Katrina: Right, right. Linda: And it just clicks. I'm like, "Okay, well I haven't been honouring myself in that area," or "I haven't been giving myself attention in that area." Katrina: Yeah. Okay, we're back. We just froze over here. Linda: She broke the internet again. I mean, we broke it. Katrina: You put it into words on the card over there. Linda: I did. Katrina: Now it just keeps happening. Linda: We're manifesting it. Conscious creation. What was I talking about before? Going on tangents. Katrina: You were talking about how there's been times where you've noticed you learning the same lesson again and again and again. And then it's like, "Okay. I'm finally done with learning that lesson." Linda: Yeah, yeah. And the learning can be in an absolute instant. You choose to shift your internal matrix and you just chose to observe what's happening. And you chose to - Katrina: It's an instantaneous decision. Linda: Yeah, absolutely. And how quickly your outer matrix can shift with that. Katrina: Yeah. Completely. Linda: So phenomenal. Katrina: It's amazing. I mean, earlier on this week, you know I was in Bali until Wednesday. I remember Monday, I think ... Well we audio every day, anyway. But I was really feeling kind of stuck and in some heavy energies, and you know where it's up in your face, I get anxiety sometimes. And I was having a pretty extreme anxiety day, which I hadn't had in a while, and I was really just not enjoying that feeling of it. But at the same time, I remember I walked into the gym and I remember saying to myself, "This will shift. As much as in this moment of insane anxiety and feeling frustrated or whatever it was that I was experiencing, as much as that felt real." I was so aware, I guess, from all the work that I've done over the years and the way I live my life, I was like, "This could shift any moment." And from now on I might feel on top of the fucking world and completely understand all my madness and why I was making something into a really big thing. Or I might stay in a state or feeling stuck and anxious and frustrated or trapped or whatever for the whole day, and either what it's okay, either way it is what is, and that's all it is, and that's okay. Katrina: But I think that sometimes when we're in that state of feeling like, "Why can I have what I want and why is money evading me or why is this happening or why is my business here or why are my relationships like this or whatever," that we get so caught up in this kind of story of "This is not fair and why am I getting [inaudible 00:34:18] this instead of just being like this could change in an instant based on your own thoughts," I don't mean based on something happened. I mean based on you suddenly get some new perspective and on that day earlier this week, I said just kind of a simple loose intention in my mind that this will get to shift and that they'll be a way for me to be empowered by this situation that was causing me to feel a bit panicked, and I felt like, "How could that happen?" Because there is something that makes me feel upset. Katrina: And I'm not kidding, like two hours later, I was like, "Holy shit, wow. I feel so grateful for this now because I just realised how I'm not addressing whatever area inside of and that I now get to learn about this, and oh my God, I'm so glad that this happened to cause me to go into this anxiety of this crazy tail spin." I had to sit in it and marinate in it and it didn't feel fun, but even when you're in that state, like we know that it's for our greater good, right? Linda: Always. Katrina: So we might be like, "Ah this feels like shit. This has been dragged through the ringer, and put on a freaking spin cycle and then you go ten rounds after that, and then somebody" ... But you still know that it's for your learning and growth. So even in the mists of the worst of it, you're like, "And I'm getting fucking strong as a mother fucker." Watch me grow. Linda: Watch me grow, watch me expand. Katrina: We talk about this all the time. Linda: We do, we do. I think it's really powerful how we can go into, even when we're triggered, so this is the thing, previously the gratitude always comes after, the learning comes after. You're not going to get clarity and learning and wisdom when you're full of emotion. You need to left that shift. You need to be with it. But can you be your own observer at the same time? And instantly, while you're having that experience of, "I feel really shit. I feel really challenged." Can you be your own observer and go, "Hey I'm still grateful, because I'm being shown something that I'm not quite getting yet. Katrina: Right. I don't know what it is yet, but I know that it's here for a reason. Linda: It's here for a reason, it's here for my greater good, and I get to learn something. I get to be a better version of myself as I come through this. Katrina: Yeah. It's just when I'm triggered, I'm secretly happy because I know I'm healing. Linda: Yeah. I love that. I love that expression. Katrina: Well even on the plane just then, my four year old had three next level tantrums on the flight that were just so bad, so full on. I'm first I was conscious as fuck. I'm using conscious communication with my child, everybody probably so impressed by me. I was staying super calm, I was very proud of myself, right? And I got him through the first tantrum. Katrina: But then he had another one. And I felt myself start to break a little bit. I was like, "Fucking." I didn't say that, but that's what I was feeling, right. I was going to be like skanky bogan mom on the plane. But I didn't. But I was feeling it. But it was so full on. He's just like that when he's not ... he's a free spirit. Linda: Auntie Linda never gets those attacks, let's just leave it like that. Katrina: You can freaking fly with him. But honestly, at the same time, there was this small part of me that was like, "I'm becoming a warrior right now as a mother." I'm learning and growing. Okay he did break me a little bit, there was one point when the stewardess come up and I may have just been sitting on the tray table ignoring him while he jumped up and down in the seat and threw a marinate sauce on the guy in front of me. Linda: What? You didn't tell me that part. Katrina: I didn't have time to tell you anything, I got home and we went straight into the live stream. It was a small moment there where I was like, "I'm just going to pretend this is not happening and I'm not even going to try to do anything about it." Linda: As he was throwing sauce at people. Katrina: And the stewardess is like, "Could you stop standing up on the seat, please, the captain's going to come out and get you." And he was like, "No he's not." But he goes, "Never!" He refuses to sit. Linda: I love Nathan, he's just so unapologetic in his stuff. Katrina: Yeah and then she's like, "Wow, he's quite stern mood isn't he?" I'm like ... Linda: He's just unapologetic. He doesn't take no for an answer. Katrina: I really did break a little bit. I was like, "This is too hard. I just want to drink my wine and write in my fucking journal." Linda: I honour all the moms out there, honestly. I really honour all the moms because I don't have kids myself, yet, it might be an experience that I get to have in this lifetime, it may not, you know, either way I'm okay. But it's beautiful to watch from a distance. Katrina: Honestly, even through that, I'm just like, you go into this place when that shit happens on a plane where you're like, "I'm just going to choose to not allow anyone else' perceptions to impact me right now. I'm going to be in my space, with my child doing the best I can fucking do and now worrying about what everybody else is thinking about it." But there was definitely that part of me that was like, "I'm growing from this experience." And it's like what AJ just said about when you get triggered, and yeah, anything shit's going on for us and we always share what we're working through and what we're processing and stuff that's coming up. Linda: But we still have our tantrums, as well. Katrina: Ah, yeah. Linda: Some of our audience, like yesterday - Katrina: Sometimes we're extraordinarily immature. Linda: Oh my God. I just make - Katrina: Yesterday was an interesting day. Linda: Oh my God. But we also have these tantrums. Conscious tantrums. It's hilarious. Katrina: #concioustantrums. We do. It's release. Linda: Yeah, it is. Katrina: The thing is, even when we're having a tantrum through, we're aware and we know what we're doing. Linda: Yeah. Katrina: And we talk about it, usually at the same time. Not even afterward. But you won't be like, "losing your shit," or "I'm losing my shit," or whatever, and in the same audio, we're like, "Oh, well then I also understand that blah blah blah." And it's like, people don't talk like that normally with their friends. We give ourselves credit and give yourself credit if you are catching yourself, even a little bit. Because it's not about being so fucking involved that you're not in a human experience at all. But I think that one of the most powerful things is to be able to catch yourself and to notice it. Linda: Absolutely, absolutely. And like I said, be that own observer on the side. And go, "Okay, I'm allowing myself to just be [inaudible 00:40:56], I'm allowing myself to be with this." Katrina: Right. Linda: I'm allowing myself to be a little brat. And like I was saying yesterday, I just want to fucking kick and scream. But I'm not going to. [crosstalk 00:41:07]. And then just verbalise it, which is an expression of releasing. What was I saying? I either feel like having two litres in wine and I hardly ever drink or I want to have two litres of ice cream, which is not an option, or give me a bucket of peanut butter, or - Katrina: What is that, that's on the table over there? Linda: Where? Katrina: That packet of interesting items that I threw on the table down there. Linda: It's for you, my dear. Katrina: Did you buy me peanut butter? We needed some peanut butter in this house. [inaudible 00:41:43] Linda: We have peanut butter cuddles. Katrina: Well, you know what, what do you think ... peanut butter orgasms are also a thing that people need to be aware of. But that may be a topic for another live stream. But what do you think about, we were talking before about having fun and how important fun is, so fun is something that's often thought of as a childhood type thing, right? Children naturally know how to really be in a set of higher fun. Well children are also fabulous at having next level temper tantrums. So do you think it's just totally okay to be ... if you're going to be in that child energy of play and fun and lightheartedness and frivolity, why don't you get ... This is still live, Patrick - Linda: Yeah, it's life. Katrina: No need to replay. Why don't you get to also ... Well you don't necessarily get to lay down on the floor in the airport like my son does and kick and scream. Linda: But could you imagine though? Next time we go travelling, we should ... you have the phone, I'll do the thing. Honestly, we can do some skits. Katrina: That would be hilarious. [crosstalk 00:42:51]. I want the fucking peanut butter! They took my peanut butter off me at security! Totally. But it's actually not that funny because we're talking about, as adults, we learn to restrict our expression of our emotion. Linda: Right. Yeah. And we get so suppressed, but it's a form of release and no wonder we're so programmed to repress and not express ourselves, no wonder all of the sudden all these things are bubbling up inside, and then we just snap at the smallest little thing because we haven't been taught how to express ourselves. We haven't been taught how to create healthy containers to release our emotions and the energy from our bodies. And here's the thing, our physical bodies are going to store emotion and if we're not creating healthy containers to let go of that and to constantly release, like crying is a form of release, and we've even made crying bad. That crying is weak. Katrina: Right, right. It's a method as well. Linda: It's a mode of healing. Katrina: Absolutely. But it's also, if you continue to hold back what you're acting thinking and feeling from yourself, nevermind the other people in your life, then actually over time, you accidentally created yourself into a version of yourself which is not the real you. Linda: Yeah. Katrina: Because every single time you make a choice to respond from, "This is how I should show up or behave in this situation, as opposed to this is my true self, my true soul," you just made a small adjustment off track. And if you're doing that day by day, multiples times throughout the day, you kind of cultivating yourself into being this service based, masked version of yourself. And so then you wonder, why your relationships aren't working, why you can't seem to attract in those ideal soulmate clients, if you're an entrepreneur. I had a client a year or so ago say something about there's always these conflicts like friendships, and at the time I was like, "Wow, I don't have any conflict in my friendships." Now, I'm saying I don't experience conflict ever in my friendships, but it certainly not something where ... I don't expect it or I don't really think of it as normal, right? I wouldn't expect that we are friends would have some kind of conflict. Of course it's possible, nothing's impossible, but to me that's a soul aligned relationship, whether it's client or a friend or something different in the personal life. Katrina: I don't look at that as there should be currents of turmoil. Now if there would, that would be okay as well. Because it is what it is. But it's more that when the soul connection is there, there's an actual real true understanding of who we each are as individuals. It's not based on some service masked foundation, is what I'm saying. Linda: Right, yeah. Katrina: So therefor, there's actual legitimate acceptance of each other on a soul level, not just, "Oh yeah, you say the things or do the thing or have the things in your life that similar to me and so we'll be friends." Linda: Yeah, absolutely. And I think you and I are similar in many ways, but we're also so different in so many ways, and I think I remember ages and ages ago when I was just playing at a different level of consciousness, to just observe my human connections and relationships that I had back then and it was kind of like this ego game of, "Oh why wouldn't you like that? We can't be friends now." It wasn't honouring people ad accepting people for who they were. And now that I find with all of my friends, who I connect with on a soul level, we may not agree with everything, we may not do everything the same way, but we're fully honouring each other for who we are. Katrina: Completely Linda: And accepting each other for who we are. Katrina: Yeah. Linda: And life really isn't about, like you said earlier, touched on how we tend to lose ourselves because we're told who to be and we're told how to live our life, we are operating from this mask. And we're not even ourselves. And quite often we hear this expression of I just want to go and find myself. It isn't about finding yourself. Life is about remembering who you aare. Because everything is inside of you. We've all been born a free spirit of love, we all have an inner child within ourselves, so it's the programming of society that puts you in a box and tells you how to live your life, what to believe, how to ... We're even been thought what to think. We're being thought what to feel, in this type of situation, you should feel this. Katrina: Right. [crosstalk 00:47:34] Linda: And every single part of our life is manufactured in this system. So quite often we hear about, "Oh I'm going to go around the world to find myself." We don't need to go around the world to find ourselves. We can literally sit in stillness and just think right here and start to peel back the layers of who we're not. Who we've been told to be. And that's really powerful. It's not about, "Hey I want to figure out everything at once," that's not how it works. You figure something out about yourself, start to remember who you are on certain levels. It's like the onion. You peel back one layer and then there's something else under that. Linda: We run away from ourselves, yeah. I definitely run away from myself. A lot, in fact, back in the day. Because I couldn't face and stand the person who I was. So I did everything and anything to continue to numb and escape from my reality. Katrina: Right, yeah. There's a lot of things that are on the surface that could look like fabulous life choices, travels one of them. Which people might use in some cases, for numbing or escaping, but it's all about the place it's coming from. Because it can be coming, obviously from a place of hiding value and grounding and expanding, or it could be coming from a place of hiding. Like alcohol is one example of that. Sometimes people drink alcohol to obviously escape and run and hide, and then other times alcohol is expanding a higher vibe of abundance energy, basically. So it's all about where you already are, but either way, you've got to be giving yourself everything you need. If you think going on a silent meditation or going to a retreat or doing a course or getting a coach or getting a partner or whatever it is that's going "to change everything for me, that's going to fix me, that's going to give me what I need. I need this, I have to do it." It's like, "Well cool, do it if you feel called to do it, whatever it is." But you're actually still going to need to figure out how to give that to yourself at some point. Linda: Really good point. Katrina: You're not going to get it from going to that thing, paying that person, doing that thing. Linda: Yeah, absolutely. People can guide us, absolutely, but at the end of the day, a good coach is someone who guides and teaches for you to how to heal yourself, how to be more of you, how to connect to your truth and your believes around things, and how to be your own observer. So you're not relying on an external coach all the time. Or you're not relying on another external resource. Katrina: Yeah, I read about this. I did a little [inaudible 00:50:14] as my plane was taking off about maximum abuse learnings around relationships, business and personal, and like I mentioned specifically, a mentor shouldn't be telling you what to do. I believe a mentor is to help you remember how to be your be your own [inaudible 00:50:32], but a mentor is there to be more of who you are and connect to your soul, connect to your intuition and your own guidance and wisdom. Not to tell you, "Here's the rules and you must do this in order to get this result." Linda: Yeah, absolutely. And it's powerful when you can start to tune into yourself and listen to your own soul and allow your inner compass to guide you, and I'm very big on that. Katrina: Yes. Your soul always knows. Linda: Your could always knows. I actually have to admit to one thing. This year, I ended up getting caught up with events, like person - Personal growth is one of my highest values, and I love ... I can throw my money on personal growth. Coaching, mentoring, events, all this stuff. And I found myself doing one event after another, one course after another - Katrina: Yeah you were in a - Linda: ... I'm like, "Holy shit, this is actually too much." What am I actually searching from these events? Is that thing of, "Ah, I want to expand more, I want to evolve my consciousness more. And I don't feel good enough." So that was really interesting to obverse myself in that. But I caught myself. I was completely honest with myself. I'm being honest with you here as well. It doesn't matter how much you continue to evolve, you'll never get to a stage where, "Okay, I've had enough now." Katrina: Yep. Linda: But also, be careful that you're not going the other way of "I want more and more and more." Because you can't be okay with what you have inside of you. Katrina: Right. Like learn ... yeah. Learning, growth work, is a great example of what we were just saying. A lot of people use growth work to escape from being in the now and from living their lives. In fact, you know Bali, like we're both obsessed with Bali and we both go to Bali a lot. You're leaving back again Tuesday for Bali, right? And I just came back from Bali on Wednesday and I go there every month. Linda: And you're coming back for my birthday. Katrina: I'm going back to Bali for your birthday, of course, in a few weeks. So Bali though, is a place ... There's an expression about Bali I remember hearing, it's like, it can be a place for the internal wanderer. Now, nothing wrong with being an internal wanderer, but specially there's a lot of people who go to Bali and 20 years later are still in Bali and have not, as I would call it, pressed fucking play on anything, they're just floating around freaking Bali being healed and cleansed. Bali cleanse. Linda: That is starting. Katrina: We have our own detention of what a Bali cleanse may entail. But there is. There's a lot of people in Bali who are amazing artists and messengers, but who have not put a single bit of work out in the world or barely anything. They're just caught up in their energy and the obsession and the vortex of Bali, and I'm healing and I'm learning and I'm exploring and I'm wondering. And it's like, cool, when are you going to fucking do something? Linda: Yeah. Katrina: So there's going to be that part of it, as well. Linda: Absolutely. Katrina: And Bali's a good example of that. But life is a good example of that, as well. And in this industry, for sure, you see so many people who are continually learning, continually healing, continually absorbing new content and regurgitating stuff on the internet, I guess, but when are you going to actually admit that you're scared to let what's inside of you out? And then just do it. Because that's what's going on. You're becoming addicted to the growth work as a way of escaping doing your own fucking work. Linda: Yes, and we're hiding under the spiritual masks, then we become, like we start to awaken our self worth and our beliefs are still at a level where we think that, for example, money is bad, or we can't do certain things because it's bad. And we actually have a lot of limiting believes in operating from that space, and then we just hide under this spiritual façade of spiritual masks where, oh no, no, but I'm spiritual and I'm a good person - Katrina: Bold as fuck. Linda: And we hide and we use that as an excuse to cover up and limiting where you're thinking or our low self worth and how we're operating. So we're using it as an excuse and I'm masking. Katrina: It's hiding. Linda: It is hiding. And at the end of the way, we can get so caught up in the whole, "Let's just do yoga and meditate every day and do nothing else." Katrina: Right. Linda: But at the end of the day, yes those are daily practises and very important, I believe in them very much. I'm a yoga teacher - Katrina: Yeah, journaling. Obviously I'm obsessed with journaling, I talk about it all the time, but one time I wrote a post, something like, "Put the fucking journal down. Stop fucking journaling. Go and do some work." Like, okay journaling is that work, I get that, obviously I teach that. But yeah, there's go to be those ... it's that dance, back and forth between, okay I'm going within and I'm accessing guidance and I'm learning and growing, or connecting with others who are helping me to grow. And then it's like, okay now I'm in creation mode, because as humans, we're all brought here to create. We're not brought here to consume. Consumption of content or growth or whatever - Linda: That's what we're taught. Katrina: But creation, I believe, is of higher value for the majority of us, or certainly, at least, for people in this community. We're creators. Linda: Yeah, yeah. Katrina: So are you creating or are you caught up in that continual, perpetual, wondering and seeking and never being ready to press play, and there's always something else to learn and nother fucking healing session to do, and another journaling session to do, and at some point it's like, put the journal down. Linda: Yeah, and you know, it can be uncomfortable to observe these things about ourselves and we don't always want to admit to that. But it's really powerful to just own that space and not just own your story, but own everything where you're at. First of the changes is awareness and then acceptance. Accept where you are, and go, "Okay, awesome, I acknowledge where I am now, and if I'm not aware, then how can I create change?" And like I just own up about the whole event thing. I'm like, "Oh my God, I just being going from event to event." Katrina: Well you said yes to all those events in alignment, though. Like you're the opposite of a person who doesn't do the work. But then, at a certain point, you noticed that it was too ... it was feeling like, this is not what I need. Linda: Yeah, yeah. Katrina: To be continual. But you weren't saying yes to those events in a place of trying to escape or avoid anything. It was the opposite of that. Linda: Yeah. Katrina: It was aligned to say yes, and then at a certain point it was like, "Oh, okay cool. I can learn what I need to learn here," which partly is that I don't need to go to events back to back to back to back. Linda: Oh my God. Katrina: In different cities continually. Linda: I'm having a month off, okay. A month off. Katrina: Yeah, but now, you're falling out of that and you're into more growth and time and taking actual time, it's a perfect balance, right? Linda: The integration - Katrina: You're allowing it all to just sink deeper into who you are. Linda: Yeah. The integration is a really interesting topic and I think it's a really important one to discuss because we can, for example, if you're using the event example again, we can continue to do courses, events, blah blah blah, and we take all the information in, or we do healing. But are we allowing ourselves to integrate? Are we actually applying also our learnings? We can get caught up in the personal development world, as well. We just continue to do all the courses, learn all the stuff, but are we applying it? Are we actually embodying - Katrina: Are you testing it out? Linda: ... the teachings? Are we embodying the wisdom of what we're actually being taught? Because knowledge is not power. It's what you do with the knowledge. Katrina: Yep, that applied knowledge is power. Linda: Yeah. Applied knowledge is power. Yeah, I definitely believe that, too. Katrina: Yeah. Linda: So it's powerful to observe where you are and just be up front and honest with yourself. Okay, cool, well I get to see from a different perspective. I'm going, "Okay, well I own that part of myself. And now I can create change." But if you're not accepting those parts of yourself, then you can't change it. It's like this with anything in life. If you're not accepting where you are and you're not accepting a previous experience, you can't shift from it. You have to accept it. Katrina: You have to continue to receive that same lesson until you learn it. Linda: Acceptance is part of the healing process in anything in life. Super powerful. I accept that you're here. Katrina: I'm just thinking about the Bali cleanse. Linda: On the audio you're like - Katrina: We're going to have a fabulous Bali cleanse when I come over again in a few weeks. Linda: And it is my birthday in a couple of weeks. So [crosstalk 00:59:16]. How am I going to make it? Oh yeah. 34. Age is only number [crosstalk 00:59:25]. Katrina: That's why I'm like, I think I know, but I'm not [crosstalk 00:59:27]. Linda: Yeah, it's like ... sometimes I'm friends with people, like close friends, and I'm like, "How old are you?" After couple years, I'm like, "How old are you, even?" Age is just not a thing that we know. Katrina: Not at all. Well I like that expression, I don't see faces, I see souls. It's the same with age, I think. It's a soul thing, not an age thing. Linda: Guilty on consume too much learning. Yeah, if we're not taking aligned action or applying the stuff, nothing's going to happen. We've got to step into the actual taking responsibility for our actions. Katrina: And pressing fucking play. Linda: And pressing fucking play. Katrina: Or pressing go live. This is an example, right? We're really just having a conversation here that we would have by ourselves anyhow, and we do all day, every day, and how hard is it to just go live and do it as content for your audience. It's not hard. But people make it really hard. And if you wanted to build brand for example, and then maybe you're like, "I've got all these powerful, cool stuff inside of me," and you talk about it with your friends or maybe some groups or your mentor or something like that, well, that's being stuck in the cycle of I'm learning and I'm growing and I talk about amazing, interesting things with people, but are you showing the world? Are you sharing what you're here to show the world? Linda: Yeah. Katrina: Marie says, "I'm 49 and [inaudible 01:00:51] I feel 35." Yeah, well, that's what's funny right. I would never think of you by being 49 based on what the conventional definition of 49 is. But I think, even my ... what's his name? The yoga teacher? In Bali? Linda: Yeah. Katrina: So he asked me once how old I was, because I mentioned having an eight year old, and he was like, "How old are you?" And I told him, and he was like, "Holy shit, I thought you were like 30, basically." And I've gone, "How old are you?" And he's 49, right? Linda: Ah is he 49? Wow. Katrina: I was like, wow. So then we both congratulated each other on how young we look, of course. And he was kind of talking about how people don't take care of themselves and stuff. But I said to him, "But how you look at 49 and how I look at 38 is what it's meant to be like. What if that is what 49 is suppose to look like? It's just that most people are all fucked up, basically." So it's not even that you look younger or I look younger, it's that we're the ones who have actually honoured our bodies and taken care of ourselves and this is what ... 38 is not suppose to look like what most, sorry. What most women look like at 38. It shouldn't look like. Or what most men look like at 50. It shouldn't look like that. It should be, if you took care of yourself. I don't know. That's my theory. Linda: Longevity. Katrina: My theories that when we meet people when we're shocked at their age, and that they look like, Marie's a great example of this. Marie's in my inner circle. And I've met her in person, obviously, as well. Not obvious, but I have. People like that, where you think, "How can you be that age? Doesn't make nay sense." My theory is that they look the correct way that you're suppose to look for that age, it's just that everybody else is ageing super fast because they didn't take care of themselves. Linda: Yeah, and I guess, yes the numbers are ticking in our linear timeline and we get "a year older ... pardon? Katrina: That we've been in time and space. Linda: Oh, we do. There's so many different timelines. The talk about time is just a whole other live feed again. But at the end of the day, we celebrate these birthdays, when really we're just one day older, every day. Katrina: Yeah. Linda: It's actually really interesting because we're not going to feel ... We're still this infinite soul, we're still this person that's inside of this physical body that we carry for life. We're not going to feel any different in 20 years time. We're still going to be this soul - Katrina: Everybody says that. Linda: We're still going to feel the physical restrictions because the body starts to shut down, so the only difference you're going to feel is your physical limitations that you'll eventually have because your body is getting older. Katrina: Yep. Linda: So that's why its so incredibly important to look after your physical being, health and wellness is not just - Katrina: It's not negotiable. Linda: Yeah. Yeah. And it flows into mind, body, and soul. Looking after every parts of self, and we can't continue to neglect that. Even as an 80 year old, we have child. Katrina: You look fabulous for 80. You're like, "Even as an 80 year old." You're looking fucking amazing. Linda: I met this man. I live steamed about it last night. I met this beautiful man - Katrina: The guy that you shared your food with? Linda: Yes! Yes. I want to share it again, can I? Can I? In a really, really short version. I was feeling very triggered yesterday. And I was sitting outside eating my little rice crackers and my avocado, and this elderly man, he was about 70. Katrina

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