When The Call Hits Home

In this heartfelt and honest episode, Jennifer and Ashlee sit down—just the two of them—to discuss the realities of balancing their professional and personal lives, the challenges of burnout, and how these impact their work on the podcast. They explore the importance of boundaries, self-care, and reprioritizing, all while remaining committed to supporting first responder families.Key Topics & HighlightsA Peek Into Ashlee's WorldThe Struggle to BalanceRecognizing BurnoutThe Importance of BoundariesFamily, Guilt & Saying NoSelf-Care StrategiesBook RecommendationA Change to the Podcast ScheduleResources MentionedBook: Burnout: The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle by Emily & Amelia NagoskiListener TakeawaysBurnout is real, and boundaries are essential.Self-care isn't selfish—it makes you better at supporting others.It's okay to say no; your relationships (professional and personal) should withstand honest boundaries.Programming NoteThe podcast will shift to a monthly release schedule starting next month. Thank you for understanding and continuing to support this community!---------------------------------------------------------------- FOLLOW & CONNECT WITH US • Facebook -https://www.facebook.com/whenthecallhitshome• Twitter - https://x.com/WTCHHOfficial• Instagram -https://www.instagram.com/whenthecallhitshome/• YouTube - @WhenTheCallHitsHome • Our Website! - https://whenthecallhitshome.com/--------------------------------------------------------------------#WhenTheCallHitsHome #FirstResponderFamily #CenturionsPath #Therapists #PodcastCollab #SupportFirstResponders #FamilyOfCops #MentalHealthAwareness #PodcastCommunity #FeaturedGuests________________________________________This podcast does not contain medical / health advice. It is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment and should not be relied on as health or personal advice.The information contained in this podcast is for general information purposes only. The information is provided by Training Velocity LLC and while we endeavor to keep the information up to date and correct, we make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the Podcast or the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in the podcast for any purpose. Any reliance you place on such information is strictly at your own risk. WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE NOR LIABLE FOR ANY ADVICE, COURSE OF TREATMENT, DIAGNOSIS OR ANY OTHER INFORMATION, SERVICES OR PRODUCTS THAT YOU OBTAIN THROUGH THIS PODCAST. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment and before undertaking a new health care regimen, and never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast.

Welcome back to When The Call Hits Home! In this special mini episode, Jennifer and Ashlee share some exciting news— they were recently featured on the Centurion's Path podcast!

Hosts:Dr. Ashlee Gethner, LCSW – Child of a Police OfficerJennifer Woosley Saylor, LPCC S – Child of a Police OfficerEpisode OverviewIn this episode of When the Call Hits Home, Jennifer and Ashlee are back after some time away and dive into a real, honest conversation about burnout in first responders. From conference insights to personal experiences, this episode highlights how stress builds and how our bodies often send warning signs before we're ready to listen.Ashlee shares her experience attending a international conference and what stood out most, including the science behind decision-making in high-pressure situations and the reality of how quickly first responders are forced to act. The conversation also explores decision fatigue, impatience, and how the job impacts life at home.The episode takes a personal turn as Ashlee opens up about being forced to slow down after getting sick, missing an important trip, and realizing just how much she had been pushing herself. This leads into an important discussion about how burnout often starts with physical symptoms and why so many first responders ignore those early signs.Together, Jennifer and Ashlee break down what burnout actually looks like, how it shows up in the body and behavior, and why rest isn't optional.What You'll Learn in This Episode:• How quickly first responders must make life-changing decisions• What decision fatigue looks like at work and at home• The connection between stress, the brain, and the body• Early physical signs of burnout (before emotional symptoms appear)• Why first responders often ignore or push through burnout• The importance of boundaries, rest, and listening to your bodyKey Takeaways:• Burnout doesn't start with a breakdown—it starts with subtle warning signs• Physical symptoms (fatigue, illness, headaches) are often the first red flags• High-performing individuals are more likely to ignore burnout• Rest is not a luxury—it's necessary for long-term health and performance• You can't pour from an empty cupResources & Support:If you or someone you know is struggling, consider reaching out to a trusted peer, supervisor, or mental health professional who understands first responder culture.Thank you for being part of our community. From hard-hitting topics to laugh-out-loud moments, we're here with you because when the call hits home, you're never alone.Follow Us:- Facebook: When The Call Hits Home Podcast- Instagram: @whenthecallhitshome- Whenthecallhitshome.com---This podcast does not contain medical / health advice. It is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment and should not be relied on as health or personal advice.The information contained in this podcast is for general information purposes only. The information is provided by Training Velocity LLC and while we endeavour to keep the information up to date and correct, we make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the Podcast or the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in the podcast for any purpose. Any reliance you place on such information is strictly at your own risk. WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE NOR LIABLE FOR ANY ADVICE, COURSE OF TREATMENT, DIAGNOSIS OR ANY OTHER INFORMATION, SERVICES OR PRODUCTS THAT YOU OBTAIN THROUGH THIS PODCAST. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment and before undertaking a new health care regimen, and never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast.

Hosts:Dr. Ashlee Gethner, LCSW – Child of a Police OfficerJennifer Woosley Saylor, LPCC S – Child of a Police OfficerEpisode OverviewIn this episode, Jennifer and Ashlee dive into an exciting new adventure as they prep for their involvement with ILEETA - the International Law Enforcement Educators and Training Association. They share behind-the-scenes details about being invited to present and record live at the upcoming conference, their hopes for connecting with first responders from around the globe, and what it means for their podcast community.While Jennifer reveals a bit of FOMO about missing the conference because of family commitments, Ashlee discusses the nerves and honor of representing the show in a live podcasting arena. They reflect on their show's growth, the importance of including first responder families in the conversation, and how culture and location shape the first responder experience from Texas to Wisconsin to Sweden!This episode is filled with humor, heartfelt stories (like cowboy boot adventures and clever firefighter date tricks), and genuine curiosity. Jennifer and Ashlee encourage listeners to send in questions and feedback, making this a truly interactive season for "When The Call Hits Home."Key Topics CoveredThe honor (and anxiety) of presenting and podcasting live at ILITA's international conferenceILEETA explained: what it stands for and why it matters for law enforcement education globallyThe vital role families play in first responder mental health and communityContrasts and similarities across first responder experiences from different U.S. states to international culturesThe importance of wraparound wellness: addressing not just mental health, but physical fitness, financial well-being, and moreSend in your questions, topics, and experiences! Jennifer and Ashlee want to include listener voices in their conference coverage—don't be shy!Grab your show merch and represent When The Call Hits Home as the podcast steps onto the global stage!Share the show with friends, family, and anyone in the first responder community.Got questions or feedback for the live episodes? Reach out via our usual channels or social media!Interested in learning more about ILEETA or getting your organization involved? Let us know, and we'll provide information during our live coverage.Thank you for being part of our community. From hard-hitting topics to laugh-out-loud moments, we're here with you because when the call hits home, you're never alone.Follow Us:- Facebook: When The Call Hits Home Podcast- Instagram: @whenthecallhitshome- Whenthecallhitshome.com---This podcast does not contain medical / health advice. It is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment and should not be relied on as health or personal advice.The information contained in this podcast is for general information purposes only. The information is provided by Training Velocity LLC and while we endeavour to keep the information up to date and correct, we make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the Podcast or the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in the podcast for any purpose. Any reliance you place on such information is strictly at your own risk. WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE NOR LIABLE FOR ANY ADVICE, COURSE OF TREATMENT, DIAGNOSIS OR ANY OTHER INFORMATION, SERVICES OR PRODUCTS THAT YOU OBTAIN THROUGH THIS PODCAST. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment and before undertaking a new health care regimen, and never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast.

Hosts:Dr. Ashlee Gethner, LCSW – Child of a Police OfficerJennifer Woosley Saylor, LPCC S – Child of a Police OfficerGuest:Chief Deputy Justin Miller, Kenosha Sheriff's OfficeEpisode SummaryIn this heartfelt episode, Chief Deputy Justin Miller returns to talk with Ashlee and Jennifer about leadership, mental health, and breaking stigma in first responder communities. The conversation dives deeply into Justin's personal journey using EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) therapy, how sharing vulnerability can transform departmental culture, and exciting news about their upcoming presentation at the International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers Conference (ILEETA).Key Topics & HighlightsLeadership & Vulnerability: Chief Deputy Miller emphasizes leading by example, sharing his own mental health journey, and the importance of vulnerability in building trust within his department.EMDR Therapy: Ashlee and Jennifer discuss the impact of EMDR and how it's not just for job-related trauma, but often for deeply personal experiences. Chief Deputy Miller shares his powerful story processing grief and trauma through EMDR, describing the emotional catharsis and lasting changes.Breaking the Stigma: The group addresses common fears around mental health programs for first responders -especially the worries about confidentiality, losing a job, or being seen as weak. Chief Deputy Miller advocates open dialogue, personal storytelling, and changing the culture to make wellness "the norm."Department Initiatives: Launching "neck up checkups"- annual mental health check-ins. High participation reflects growing trust and normalization of mental wellness.Upcoming Conference: Chief Deputy Miller and Ashlee (Dr. G) will co-present at ILEETA, sharing their department's model for clinical and administrative partnership in crisis response.Bonus: "When The Call Hits Home" will be podcasting live throughout the week at the conference, expanding their reach to thousands of international law enforcement professionals.Thank you for tuning in! Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review "When The Call Hits Home" on your favorite podcast platforms!Follow Us:- Facebook: When The Call Hits Home Podcast- Instagram: @whenthecallhitshome- Whenthecallhitshome.com---This podcast does not contain medical / health advice. It is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment and should not be relied on as health or personal advice.The information contained in this podcast is for general information purposes only. The information is provided by Training Velocity LLC and while we endeavour to keep the information up to date and correct, we make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the Podcast or the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in the podcast for any purpose. Any reliance you place on such information is strictly at your own risk. WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE NOR LIABLE FOR ANY ADVICE, COURSE OF TREATMENT, DIAGNOSIS OR ANY OTHER INFORMATION, SERVICES OR PRODUCTS THAT YOU OBTAIN THROUGH THIS PODCAST. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment and before undertaking a new health care regimen, and never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast.

Hosts:Dr. Ashlee Gethner, LCSW – Child of a Police OfficerJennifer Woosley Saylor, LPCC S – Child of a Police OfficerGuests:AJ DeAndrea - Retired Police OfficerMadalena DeAndrea - Senior Manager of Strategic Projects, Recovery, and Resiliency for Jeffco Public Schools, Child of a Police OfficerEpisode OverviewIn this powerful episode, hosts Ashlee and Jennifer welcome father-daughter duo AJ DeAndrea and Madalena DeAndrea for a conversation that weaves together generational lessons on resiliency, mental health, and the impact of trauma both personally and professionally.AJ DeAndrea, a retired deputy chief from Arvada, Colorado, shares his experience as a first responder involved in multiple high-profile incidents, including three school shootings. His career reflections highlight not only the professional complexities of law enforcement but the lasting effects these events have on families.Madalena DeAndrea gives listeners a deeply personal account of surviving the Borderline Bar and Grill shooting in Thousand Oaks, California. She discusses how growing up as the daughter of a police officer shaped her own resiliency, practical safety skills, and approach toward post-traumatic growth. With openness, she details her healing journey—how agency, small actionable steps, and the support of her family and trusted professionals helped her move from trauma toward recovery and growth.Together, the DeAndreas discuss the importance of age-appropriate openness with family about traumatic events, the evolution of mental health support within law enforcement, and their commitment to sharing these insights across the country.Thank you for tuning in! Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review "When The Call Hits Home" on your favorite podcast platforms!Follow Us:- Facebook: When The Call Hits Home Podcast- Instagram: @whenthecallhitshome- Whenthecallhitshome.com---This podcast does not contain medical / health advice. It is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment and should not be relied on as health or personal advice.The information contained in this podcast is for general information purposes only. The information is provided by Training Velocity LLC and while we endeavour to keep the information up to date and correct, we make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the Podcast or the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in the podcast for any purpose. Any reliance you place on such information is strictly at your own risk. WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE NOR LIABLE FOR ANY ADVICE, COURSE OF TREATMENT, DIAGNOSIS OR ANY OTHER INFORMATION, SERVICES OR PRODUCTS THAT YOU OBTAIN THROUGH THIS PODCAST. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment and before undertaking a new health care regimen, and never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast.

Hosts:   Dr. Ashlee Gethner, LCSW – Child of a Police Officer Jennifer Woosley Saylor, LPCC S – Child of a Police Officer   Episode Overview   It's the kickoff to 2026 for "When The Call Hits Home"! Jennifer and Ashlee reunite after the holidays each with a few survival stories to share about sick kids, hospital visits, and football games. This episode takes a deep dive into mental health in the world of first responders, focusing on Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) and the concept of Post Traumatic Growth.   Key Topics Discussed PTSD: Clinical & Real-World Definitions What PTSD means according to the diagnostic manual, how its definition and understanding have evolved. Early understanding of trauma as mainly war or abuse, contrasted with today’s broader view (cumulative events, “big T” and “little T” trauma). Common symptoms: not just flashbacks & nightmares also avoidance, numbness, irritability, concentration issues, and impulsivity. First Responders & Mental Health Unique challenges faced, stigma around seeking help, and how even “expected” work-related trauma can have serious mental health impacts. Barriers to mental health support historically, and how policy is slowly catching up (e.g. recognizing PTSD as a compensable injury). The Power of Resilience & Growth Resilience as “bouncing back” – Rocky Balboa style! Introduction to Post Traumatic Growth: moving beyond survival to genuine transformation. Five domains of post traumatic growth: Appreciation of life Relationships with others New possibilities Personal strength Spiritual change Real-world examples of first responders not just surviving trauma, but thriving and inspiring meaningful change in themselves and their communities. Family Matters How PTSD and growth impact the family dynamics of first responders; encouragement for family-wide healing and mutual support. Personal stories, including the hosts’ own experiences as children of first responders. Therapy: Beyond Diagnosis The importance of not just earning diagnoses, but focusing on recovery, growth, and positive psychology. Shout-outs to the transformative process of therapy and the courage it takes to seek help. A Symbolic Reflection The Japanese art of Kintsugi, repairing broken pottery with gold, serves as metaphor for healing: your flaws and brokenness can become strengths and sources of beauty.   Don’t Forget Shop the merch store for some WTCHH swag! Stay tuned for exciting announcements and new episodes in the new year. If this episode resonated with you, please share your thoughts and stories with us - we love hearing from you! For questions or more info, reach out to the hosts, and remember: When the call hits home, Jennifer and Ashlee are here for you. Thank you for tuning in! Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review "When The Call Hits Home" on your favorite podcast platforms! Follow Us: - Facebook: When The Call Hits Home Podcast - Instagram: @whenthecallhitshome - Whenthecallhitshome.com --- This podcast does not contain medical / health advice. It is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment and should not be relied on as health or personal advice. The information contained in this podcast is for general information purposes only. The information is provided by Training Velocity LLC and while we endeavour to keep the information up to date and correct, we make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the Podcast or the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in the podcast for any purpose. Any reliance you place on such information is strictly at your own risk.  WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE NOR LIABLE FOR ANY ADVICE, COURSE OF TREATMENT, DIAGNOSIS OR ANY OTHER INFORMATION, SERVICES OR PRODUCTS THAT YOU OBTAIN THROUGH THIS PODCAST.  Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment and before undertaking a new health care regimen, and never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast.

Hosts:Dr. Ashlee Gethner, LCSW – Child of a Police OfficerJennifer Woosley Saylor, LPCC S – Child of a Police OfficerEpisode OverviewIt's the kickoff to 2026 for "When The Call Hits Home"! Jennifer and Ashlee reunite after the holidays each with a few survival stories to share about sick kids, hospital visits, and football games. This episode takes a deep dive into mental health in the world of first responders, focusing on Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) and the concept of Post Traumatic Growth.Key Topics DiscussedPTSD: Clinical & Real-World DefinitionsWhat PTSD means according to the diagnostic manual, how its definition and understanding have evolved.Early understanding of trauma as mainly war or abuse, contrasted with today's broader view (cumulative events, “big T” and “little T” trauma).Common symptoms: not just flashbacks & nightmares also avoidance, numbness, irritability, concentration issues, and impulsivity.First Responders & Mental HealthUnique challenges faced, stigma around seeking help, and how even “expected” work-related trauma can have serious mental health impacts.Barriers to mental health support historically, and how policy is slowly catching up (e.g. recognizing PTSD as a compensable injury).The Power of Resilience & GrowthResilience as “bouncing back” – Rocky Balboa style!Introduction to Post Traumatic Growth: moving beyond survival to genuine transformation.Five domains of post traumatic growth:Appreciation of lifeRelationships with othersNew possibilitiesPersonal strengthSpiritual changeReal-world examples of first responders not just surviving trauma, but thriving and inspiring meaningful change in themselves and their communities.Family MattersHow PTSD and growth impact the family dynamics of first responders; encouragement for family-wide healing and mutual support.Personal stories, including the hosts' own experiences as children of first responders.Therapy: Beyond DiagnosisThe importance of not just earning diagnoses, but focusing on recovery, growth, and positive psychology.Shout-outs to the transformative process of therapy and the courage it takes to seek help.A Symbolic ReflectionThe Japanese art of Kintsugi, repairing broken pottery with gold, serves as metaphor for healing: your flaws and brokenness can become strengths and sources of beauty.Don't ForgetShop the merch store for some WTCHH swag!Stay tuned for exciting announcements and new episodes in the new year.If this episode resonated with you, please share your thoughts and stories with us - we love hearing from you!For questions or more info, reach out to the hosts, and remember: When the call hits home, Jennifer and Ashlee are here for you.Thank you for tuning in! Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review "When The Call Hits Home" on your favorite podcast platforms!Follow Us:- Facebook: When The Call Hits Home Podcast- Instagram: @whenthecallhitshome- Whenthecallhitshome.com---This podcast does not contain medical / health advice. It is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment and should not be relied on as health or personal advice.The information contained in this podcast is for general information purposes only. The information is provided by Training Velocity LLC and while we endeavour to keep the information up to date and correct, we make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the Podcast or the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in the podcast for any purpose. Any reliance you place on such information is strictly at your own risk. WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE NOR LIABLE FOR ANY ADVICE, COURSE OF TREATMENT, DIAGNOSIS OR ANY OTHER INFORMATION, SERVICES OR PRODUCTS THAT YOU OBTAIN THROUGH THIS PODCAST. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment and before undertaking a new health care regimen, and never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast.

Jennifer [00:00:00]: There is so much pressure on us to get so much done and so many more demands. And sometimes it's just saying no. That ability to say, like, hey, I can't go to the 12 Christmas parties. Welcome back to the podcast. Ashlee [00:00:16]: This is Jennifer and I'm Ashlee. It's us again. Jennifer [00:00:19]: It is us again. Jennifer [00:00:21]: Holiday season. Jennifer [00:00:23]: It is. It's a busy holiday season, but as usual, I'm glad it's just us. And we're excited for our special guests that we'll have back on the pod. But we were debating in terms of, like, gosh, it's the busy season, and I think we should talk about the seasons of the holidays and what that represents for us. Just kind of go from there, I think, is what we're going to start with. Jennifer [00:00:44]: Yeah, absolutely. It's a hard poll. We were both a little bit like, do we make everyone wait till the new year for some new episodes? Or then we were both sitting here talking about our experiences in terms of the holidays, how. How it relates to us working. And we both realize that, well, the holidays are actually. They're not just a stressful time for us. They're a stressful time for probably every single one of our listeners. And more so our first responders. Jennifer [00:01:09]: Right. They don't get that day off. Some of them don't. They don't get to be home with their families. I think there's a lot that goes into that. Jennifer [00:01:15]: There is. And I don't know, I mean, I just think from, like, inside baseball, I feel like that I always get a little bit busier as a therapist around the holidays, be it the approaching holiday or people's New Year's resolutions in January. And I think that the holidays bring up a lot of different things for people. You know, I think that there's plenty of holiday cheer and we always want to celebrate that. But I also think the reality of sometimes that there are things that the holidays brings that is hard. For example, I think something that can be hard with the holidays is if we're a new grieving family, like, if we've lost a family member and this is our first holiday, holiday season without them. Like, it kind of can feel so foreign and different, and traditions that we were looking forward to can be sad and can be hard. Jennifer [00:02:09]: Absolutely. Jennifer [00:02:10]: I think it's also the aspect which, you know, you pointed this out, Ashlee, is that not all our first responders get to celebrate the holidays. And sometimes it's just another day because they have work and trying to cover down time where a lot of people are Asking for time off. Yeah. Jennifer [00:02:27]: Oh, that's true too. Right. I guess I didn't even think about the shift changing, the people who do want time off, not being able to either get it or people being forced because of that. Right. Like, so there's a little bit of negativity that can sometimes come along with that. I do think that there is some truth to. Like you said, I do want to hit on this positive aspect of it too, because as you were talking about that something that came to my mind was my very favorite thing. Well, I feel nervous about saying this, so I'm going to have to pivot a little bit, but like, oh, okay. Jennifer [00:02:56]: Right when I was about to say it, I was like, maybe I shouldn't say this. My very favorite thing was shop with a cop. My dad let us be very active in that. My dad played a very big role in shop with the cop with his department. And he often was the big man, if you know what I'm saying. Like, my luck, someone's listening. And I'm not looking to. I'm not looking to destroy lives today. Jennifer [00:03:15]: Right. Looking to. To give it how it is all still believe. Jennifer [00:03:20]: And so that was one of my very favorite things because my dad would allow us girls to go and then my, My niece actually got to participate in it too. And it was such a learning experience for me as a child of a first responder. One, just to be so grateful for everything that I do have and how to give back to the community. But two, to see my dad in that role. Because again, we think of our first responders a lot of the times. Police. Jennifer [00:03:42]: Right. Jennifer [00:03:43]: We see them as their uniform. But if there's one thing about my dad is like, he loves so hard and so like, him being able to do that and to give back, especially with kids, like, it was so touching to see and it was something that I know he loved very, very much. Jennifer [00:03:57]: Yeah. Jennifer [00:03:58]: And so I, I do want to give a shout out to that because I do think there is a little bit in December where we see, like, more positive news about first responders because of the awesome things that they're trying to do for, for their communities around the holiday. Jennifer [00:04:11]: Right. Well, and I think about that too, in terms of when you're responding to people on their worst days and getting to have a moment of just getting to do something fun, you know, not having to write somebody a speeding ticket or have to show up to somebody's home that's caught on fire or, you know, give somebody cpr, been in a car accident. Like, you get to do something that's just fun and enjoyable for the community. Jennifer [00:04:39]: And I have to laugh. Like, what are you talking? But none of them even get out of their squads when. When it's a holiday, they're like, oh, sorry, cannot. I always crack up. I'm like, everyone speed today. The day is the day. Most of them are not getting out. No, I'm just kidding. Jennifer [00:04:55]: But I always remember that with my dad, and I always be like, dad doesn't matter. And he's like, I'm not ruining someone's Christmas. Like, so. That's so funny. But I think you also bring up a good point. And I hate to turn this negative. I don't want this episode to be negative. But I really think it's important to highlight the fact that as clinicians, we hear a lot. Jennifer [00:05:15]: And something super important to me is honestly just the educational aspect of. And we talk a lot about the brain. We talk about trauma. But the holidays can be. We say it's hard for them because they're working, but for first responders, it can be so hard because they can go through a traumatic experience on the job. And because it's linked to a holiday. Like, say it happens on a holiday. Say somebody gets into a car wreck on Christmas Eve, right? And. Jennifer [00:05:41]: And they're that first responder that now has to tell the family, like, they're not going to be there. That can really ruin holidays for our first responders. And I. I hear it a lot in my office. Jennifer, I don't know about you, but the minute the brain makes the connection and the holidays is one. Because we, as humans, we love holidays, right? Like, the minute it makes that connection, those memories stick with us for a very long time. Jennifer [00:06:04]: Oh, and I just kind of want to say, like, I appreciate. Well, I don't want to bring us down, but I think part of this and why you and I started this little podcast was just about wanting to be honest about the downside of the different things that we experience. And I think that when we talk about these things that are heavier or harder, it can somehow feel like we can take a breath, because I'm not alone struggling with the holidays, and nobody gets that I had this awful thing happen, to your point, on Christmas Eve, on New Year's Eve, and it happened 10 years ago, and I can be here celebrating with my family and wanting to enjoy it, and it can be this kind of black cloud that kind of sits on the day. And to speak about the brain, there's a part of our brain that Loves organizations and dates and memories, and we like to put things in boxes. And so an anniversary that's connected to a holiday, it does sink a little bit lower. That's something that I think when my dad was on the podcast and we shared about Sandra Guevara, his experience, that actually happened on my mom's birthday. And so it is this horrible thing that then gets connected with this date. And so I think that that can really show up around the holidays. Jennifer [00:07:24]: And I think what's hard too with the holidays is that it's a season. You know, it's not Valentine's Day. That's one day that comes and goes. There is this build up to. And even with other holidays as well, you know, like Hanukkah, like, it's this build up to this day, and then it's multiple days, or with Christmas, it is this build up into that holiday. So I think that, that it, like I said, it can just kind of be in the atmosphere a little bit more than just, okay, here comes the day. And I know for some people, especially again, those first holidays that we have, or that first experience where it's a year later from this, you know, traumatic call I had to make, it can be this buildup of, what's this day gonna be? You know, what is this holiday gonna look like now that it's different? Jennifer [00:08:16]: And the brain is tricky, right? So the brain doesn't necessarily scream like, this is why I'm feeling this way all the time. And so it's. Even for some people, it's even this buildup of just like feeling off or feeling anxious or feeling. Feeling irritable because of the holidays. But really when it's tied to something, right? Like, it's very common for that to happen when anniversaries come around, right? We can feel that and sometimes we don't realize it. And our first responders, I think, will be the first to tell us that, right? Like, I have had all these things. I'm fine, I compartmentalized it. Yet here's the holiday coming. Jennifer [00:08:51]: Something tragic happened, and I just, I hate Christmas. I've heard that so many times. Jennifer [00:08:56]: I. Well, and I think that that is such a reality. You know, I think the busyness of the season is stressful and, like, who has time to sit down and think, like, why am I feeling lousy right now? And just that whole thing of I hate Christmas. And, you know, not to do another shameless plug for therapy here on this podcast, but I mean, I think it is that stuff of. And going back to an Old episode. I think, you know, Jeremy Davis, when he was on the podcast, talking about, you have to be able to sit with those things and explore those things. They're important. And yet it's a busy time. Jennifer [00:09:34]: It doesn't feel like there's time. I gotta have holiday performances to go to, and again, more coverage because people are out and holiday shopping and holiday parties and all of those things. It gets really hard. Jennifer [00:09:49]: Yeah. And what I hear when you say that, I'm going to be honest, like, I'm. Man, I'm. My clinician brain just goes back to, like, this feeling of guilt. I think a lot comes up. Guilt is huge in my office. Jennifer [00:10:01]: Yeah. Jennifer [00:10:02]: You know, and it doesn't have to be. It could be I feel guilty for not helping in this way, but also, like, I feel guilty because I'm maybe not as present during the holiday season with my own family, given just what I'm going through. Right. Jennifer [00:10:13]: But I do think that is hard. And I think that sometimes people. It's easier to show up in those other ways and harder to show up sometimes for our families. Jennifer [00:10:23]: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that's something really important, too. One, we don't want to forget that there's normalcy to those feelings. Right. So, like, if we do feel a little more agitated around the holidays, if we do have a call, we go right back to and we feel ourselves a little bit more distant or anxious. That's normal. That's a normal reaction. Jennifer [00:10:45]: It absolutely is. And so I think that ability to just give ourselves the grace and meet ourselves where we're at is totally important there. You know, if you're a Grinch, you're a Grinch. That can be it. Jennifer [00:10:58]: First off, the Grinch was so valid, though. He was kind of valid. He was bullied. I can go on forever. I love that man. Anyway. Jennifer [00:11:06]: Yeah. But I think to acknowledge, like, you don't have to be fake. You don't have to, this is my fault. Favorite time of year, and how wonderful it is if that's not where you're at. And then I think when we're able to acknowledge that and say, hey, this is where I'm at, it usually allows us to show up in a more sincere way with the people we care about. It's a hard time. It's a hard season. For whatever reason, acknowledging that, giving ourselves kind of that space and a little bit of that chance to catch our breath, I think that allows us to say, okay, this is how I do want to show up for my kiddo who loves the holiday or for my spouse who is doing a lot to make sure things are magical for people, you know, whatever that point is, I think that that is important. Jennifer [00:11:57]: And seasons. Seasons change. I think sometimes that can be helpful too, to recognize it is a temporary season. Jennifer [00:12:05]: I think that's actually something that we miss a lot. We are. When we are feeling and we're sitting in it, it feels awful. And when we feel awful, it feels like it's awful forever. And we let. Yes, and we let those cognitive distortions. Right. Which to me are definitions to our irrational thoughts. Jennifer [00:12:23]: A lot of the times, if I can break that down as simple as possible and correct me if you have a different definition, but it's the easiest way to do it on here right now. And we let those take over and we forget that so much of us, like so much of what's happening really is only temporary. One, we change a lot as humans, but two, just time in general. Jennifer [00:12:41]: Yeah. I like to call that stinking thinking. That's how I boil it. Jennifer [00:12:45]: I love that. Jennifer [00:12:46]: Yeah. And those negative thoughts and how those negative thoughts can really pile on themselves. So again, like

Hosts: Dr. Ashlee Gethner, LCSW – Child of a Police Officer Jennifer Woosley Saylor, LPCC S – Child of a Police Officer With the holiday season in full swing, your hosts dive deep into what this time of year really means for first responders and their families. Balancing the unique demands, the heightened emotions, and the challenge of staying present, this conversation acknowledges both the joys and difficulties of navigating the holidays when the call hits home, literally. In This Episode: Holiday Stress & Setting Boundaries The Ashlee & Jennifer open up about the overwhelming expectations and demands that often come with the holidays. With a reminder that sometimes, it’s healthy (and important) to say “no” and prioritize what truly matters. First Responders’ Unique Holiday Experience Not every family gets to gather together during the holidays, especially when a loved one is on duty. Jennifer and Ashlee discuss how the holiday season impacts first responders, from missing family traditions to working through emotionally difficult calls. Grief & Tragedy During the Holidays Jennifer & Ashlee explore the pain of spending holidays without loved ones and how traumatic calls on significant days can permanently change their meaning. They share both personal stories and insights from therapy, normalizing complicated feelings that often surface this time of year. Honoring Positive Moments It’s not all heavy! The episode highlights uplifting traditions like “Shop with a Cop” and the positive impact first responders make in their communities, reminding us of the good at the heart of the season. Mental Health, Guilt & Self-Care Ashlee and Jennifer dive into the guilt many feel, whether it's from not doing “enough” or not being present with family. If you’re struggling, they strongly encourage seeking support and normalizing reaching out for therapy, especially when holiday pressure mounts. Practical Tips for Staying Present Put down the phones, real connection starts with being fully there with your loved ones. Build new traditions, whether you’re at home or on shift. Take intentional breaks and give yourself permission to slow down, even if it means missing a party or two. Supporting the Whole Family This episode acknowledges the hidden load on partners and family at home, and the importance of recognizing and appreciating each person’s contributions during this season. Creating New Traditions Whether it’s puzzles, football, or unique celebrations, the hosts challenge listeners, especially first responders to find new ways to create joyful, meaningful connections, even if plans (or locations) look different this year. Navigating Substance Use Concerns Special note about the extra challenges for those managing sobriety through the holidays, acknowledging the prevalence of substance use and emphasizing the power of planning ahead and asking for support. Listener Challenge: What new tradition or small act of presence can you create with your loved ones this holiday season? Share your stories and holiday photos with the show! Final Thoughts: You’re not alone in feeling overwhelmed, stressed, or even disconnected this holiday season. Let’s give ourselves (and each other) the grace to acknowledge our real experiences and find moments of joy and connection where we can. Happy holidays from Jennifer, Ashlee, and the whole WTCHH team! Don’t Forget Shop the merch store for some WTCHH swag! Stay tuned for exciting announcements and new episodes in the new year. If this episode resonated with you, please share your thoughts and stories with us - we love hearing from you!   For questions or more info, reach out to the hosts, and remember: When the call hits home, Jennifer and Ashlee are here for you.   Thank you for tuning in! Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review "When The Call Hits Home" on your favorite podcast platforms!   Follow Us: - Facebook: When The Call Hits Home Podcast - Instagram: @whenthecallhitshome - Whenthecallhitshome.com --- This podcast does not contain medical / health advice. It is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment and should not be relied on as health or personal advice. The information contained in this podcast is for general information purposes only. The information is provided by Training Velocity LLC and while we endeavour to keep the information up to date and correct, we make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the Podcast or the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in the podcast for any purpose. Any reliance you place on such information is strictly at your own risk.  WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE NOR LIABLE FOR ANY ADVICE, COURSE OF TREATMENT, DIAGNOSIS OR ANY OTHER INFORMATION, SERVICES OR PRODUCTS THAT YOU OBTAIN THROUGH THIS PODCAST.  Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment and before undertaking a new health care regimen, and never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast.

Jennifer [00:00:00]: First responders will say, I was just in the parking lot at Walmart and I needed to go in and I'm having this large physical reaction. That's because that amygdala talk about not being online, that amygdala has this kind of memory and this connection immediately with their body. And so EMDR does this great job and I say speaking amane, speaking to our amygdala through, through our physical body. You know, with emdr, you're doing a lot of check ins of notice what you notice in your body doing body scan, starting of the top of your head to the bottom of your toes. You know what do you notice? Do you notice tension? Do you notice relaxation? Do you notice numbness? Do you notice nothing? Like all those things are ways in which we're trying to get that to not let ourselves go offline. To use your. Hi, welcome back to the podcast. I'm Jennifer. Ashlee [00:00:55]: And I'm Ashlee. We hope everybody had a really great Thanksgiving. Jennifer [00:00:59]: Yes, we do. We do hope everyone has a good Thanksgiving and we appreciate you checking out our thankful episode. And it's just us again. We are doing things a little bit different here lately, but I like it when it's just you and I sometimes. Ashlee [00:01:13]: I know I kind of love it. I think people forget like everyone has lives and of course scheduling and things like that. But we are blessed. I mean we are super blessed. We have some really cool things lined up and honestly, like, it's really nice over the holidays not to have to worry about 1 million schedules. And just us too. Jennifer [00:01:31]: That is the truth. I was on a text message chain about people trying to meet and I'm like, we're really going to try to meet before January. No, like that's just not going to happen. So. And we have a specific thing we wanted to talk about today, which is emdr. Ashlee [00:01:49]: Yeah. And I think that I want to preference something that came to me when we were trying to brainstorm. Hey, what do we talk about today? Right? Like what do we give our audience? Something that I think we fall short on when we're talking about therapy in general is that a lot of people have one thought process and if there is something that I can say is that both of us are making waves and changing the stigma, especially with first responders coming to therapy. I still almost every day get the cliche of like, well, I thought therapy was, hey, tell me how this makes you feel over and over again. The whole come in my office, all my officers, my firefighters too. But I feel like my firefighters give me A little bit less grief. But hey, my police for sure will be like, oh, where's the big comfy couch that I get to lay on? And I'm like, okay, this, this is not, you know, But I've also been doing a heck of a lot of ride alongs, which is beautiful because one thing I always strive for in this, I guess, this career is that I never want to stop Lear from them too. So one way I do that is to ride along with them. Ashlee [00:02:53]: And in that ride along, I am doing nothing clinically. Of course, if we're stuck in a squad together for eight hours, I'm going to talk to you because I'm just a talker, but I'm there to learn from you. I'm there to just be excited about what's going on. I'm not there to diagnose or evaluate or what have you the person I'm riding with. And I get that every single time. They'll be like, doc G is coming with me. Oh, they must think I need an evaluation. They must think. Ashlee [00:03:17]: And I'm like, what? Like, that is not true. So that does often lead me to this discussion of what do you think therapy is? And while there's some truth to therapy being a lot about talking. Jennifer [00:03:28]: Right. Ashlee [00:03:28]: And a lot about processing, digging, connecting things, there's also different ways that we do therapy now. And I think we could spend six years, Jennifer, like, talking about all these things. But the one thing that I know both you and I kind of specialize in you more so than me. So I'm going to pass this mic a lot is emdr. And I think it's important to talk about. And I think this episode, we're just going to bring it to light and then probably expand upon it in like a follow up episode, only because there is so much. But why don't we break down what that is? I think it's important for people to know that there's different things out there that we can do. EMDR being one of them. Jennifer [00:04:05]: Yeah. Well, I think first is like, what is EMDR stand for? Yes. Which is eye movement desuscitation reprocessing. I always struggle. Ashlee [00:04:14]: Okay, I was just about to say I can never. I can never say that either again. Jennifer [00:04:20]: Yes. And the Francis Shapiro is the. I wouldn't call her the inventor, I guess the discoverer of EMDR and kind of move things forward with this therapeutic intervention. She said she wished to come up with a different name and I kind of wish that she had as well. But it really is just a Intervention that therapists can use that is a little bit different than talk therapy. I don't know, Ashlee. I feel like we started over. You made me reflect. Jennifer [00:04:53]: Like, gosh, what do people really do think that therapy is? But I. I'll be specific and talk about emdr. So how I explain EMDR to clients is that it is a way in which the brain naturally heals itself. So in the eye movement, it's replicating our REM sleep, our deepest cycle of sleep. REM sleep is when your eyes are rapidly moving back and forth. That is the rapid eye movement that happens in REM sleep, which is a deep sleep cycle. A lot of our first responders don't get into REM sleep because of. They do not, which makes it really difficult. Jennifer [00:05:34]: And you know something I think is great about the human body in a lot of ways, it's so healthy and can heal itself. So when I think like, oh, if I cut my finger, I'm not thinking, okay, I need to clot blood and grow a scab, grow new skin, that my body just automatically does that. And our brain has that ability too. When we rest, we sleep. We pre process our experience of the day. And unfortunately, sometimes there's experiences that we have that maybe we don't get a good night's sleep afterwards. Or there's experiences that we have, especially when we're first responders, that, you know, nobody should really have to go see or experience these things. There's no place in our brain. Jennifer [00:06:14]: Brain to put some of the horrors that people experience when they're first responders. And what EMDR is doing is just taking that information. Clients can do different things, like the eye movement, which is the replication of the REM sleep. There's also this fancy word called bilateral stimulation. It is just where both hemispheres of the brain are working. Okay, have I gotten too technical? Like, are you. Ashlee [00:06:40]: No, you're doing a great job. I always giggle when I hear. Because when I explain, explain it. And I go. I don't know why I go to the run sleep par. And I talk about the eye shifting. I'm always waiting for someone to be like, wait, what? Or like, freak out about that. Or be like, our eyes shift. Ashlee [00:06:54]: But, yeah, no, I think you're doing great job. Jennifer [00:06:56]: I think that's always important. You know, when I tell people that about sleep, I'm quick to say, I'm not putting you to sleep. I'm not hypnotizing you. You're awake and conscious throughout this experience. And EMDR has been in practice for you know, over decades now. I want to say like 30. Ashlee [00:07:17]: I was going to say, I know. Jennifer [00:07:18]: It'S over 30 now, probably getting closer to 40. And technology has come a lot further. So as much as people do eye movement, there's what we call tappers, a real clinical word. But it's just this thing that will vibrate in your hand and go back and forth. I do a lot of virtual sessions, so I use eye movement a lot with virtual sessions. But I also have auditorial. So it will go into one headphone, then the next headphone, if people have headphones in. And then there's also tactical tapping, where I just have people, like, cross their arms and we'll tap. Jennifer [00:07:52]: And I get to tap with them, which is I get some free emdr sometimes when I'm doing that with clients, you know what, I work with clients in terms of, like a traumatic experience. And there can be one call that's a traumatic experience. And sometimes those are some experiences that as therapists will call little T's that are small traumatic experiences. And sometimes those little T's can be a little bit harder than the big T's. If we maybe had an experience with an adult that made us feel less than, or if we maybe had a thing at school that made, you know, school was hard and we felt left out in groups. Like, there's just these experiences that we have when we're little and we don't have all the information that are. If you think about our hemispheres, our left and our right, and our thinking and our feeling when we're little, we can get that really confused. And so EMDR can be a great resource sometimes for, you know, my smart brain knows that I'm loved and cared for, and yet sometimes in my heart, I don't feel that way. Jennifer [00:08:57]: And EMDR is a great tool that can kind of get those online together. It is a researched intervention. This is not just some therapists came together, like, hey, let's try this. There's lots of research that shows that, as an intervention can be really helpful. Yeah. Ashlee [00:09:15]: And I think it's important to kind of do a little throwback to one of our very first episodes that probably hasn't gotten the attention that it needs just because we were really brand new babies to this whole podcast thing. But when we had Dr. Kuei on here, she did a fabulous job, like, talking to us about how the brain works. Right. And what happens to the brain when we're in high stress situations. And I think that it's important when we're talking about EMDR to remember that prefrontal cortex gets kind of a little bit offline. It's not fully there when we are in a high stress situation, which makes it hard for us to actually reprocess things in a way that we typically would if it was a normal event. And so I always tell my guys and girls that come to me that in that moment, like your brain is still taking everything in, typically through your senses, but the piecing it together is kind of hard. Ashlee [00:10:01]: And it'll take that situation and it'll store it away in your long term memory in what I call the red file encampment. And it'll just keep doing that if we don't take it back out and reprocess it with our prefrontal cortex back online. Right. To have those facts of everything that happened around us with that emotional side and to work through it that way. But I think that's something really important to recognize is that literally the brain is doing this to us when we're in these careers. And it's something that we can't necessarily help. It's just how we respond. Jennifer [00:10:30]: Well, and I think to that whole point, you know, something I talk a lot about with clients is that EMDR is really working to speak to our amygdala to that, you know, survival part of our brain, which is not our frontal cortex. It's not that smart decision making self. It is just about survival. Which I think, you know, is kind of cool that like our brain is wired in a way that survival, I mean, that's gotta be the most important thing. Not always about our happiness or feeling good. It's about surviving and that connection with your amygdala and our physical body. You know, if I'm running from a saber tooth tiger, I can't digest my bologna sandwich. Ashlee [00:11:12]: Yes. Jennifer [00:11:12]: You know, I need to feel my heart racing. I'm gonna feel sweaty in case somebody grabs me. Like all these things. And we have these physical responses and that memory. Right. And so that's why I think sometimes first responders will say, I was just in the parking lot at Walmart and I needed to go in and I'm having this large physical reaction. That's because that amygdala talked about not being online. That amygdala has this kind of memory and this connection immediately with their body. Jennifer [00:11:42]: And so EMDR does this great job. I say speaking, Amy knees, speaking to our amygdala through our physical body. You know, with emdr, you're doing a lot of check ins of notice what you notice in your body doing body scan, starting of the top of your head to the bottom of your toes. You know, what do you notice? Do you notice tension? Do you notice relaxation? Do you notice numbness? Do you notice nothing? Like, all those things are ways in which we're trying to get that to not let ourselves go offline, to use your kind of metaphor, and allow that stuff to kind of be processed in a way that says, I don't have to have a physical response in the parking lot. Like, I can say, like, hey, I'm safe. Ashlee [00:12:27]: I'm okay. Jennifer [00:12:28]: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Ashlee [00:12:31]: And why do you and I. I know I'm. I'm bouncing off of you here, but I do find that EMDR is, like, my first responders really take to emdr. I happen to think that baseline, like, not going anything significant here. I like that EMDR structured feel like my first responders appreciate that too, because they are more structured humans. It's more like, this is where you start. This is right. Like. Ashlee [00:12:57]: And so there's a protocol to it, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. So I think that that's why my first responders really take to it. But do you have any experiences like you and I utilize EMDR a lot? What would you say is your feedback to that? Do you feel like it's really beneficial for your first responders as well? Jennifer [00:13:15]: Yes, and a big reason why, I think. I mean, I didn't really think of it in terms of the structure. I think it's more of, like, they. Ashlee [00:13:22]: Don'T have to talk on that too, though.

Hosts: Dr. Ashlee Gethner, LCSW – Child of a Police Officer Jennifer Woosley Saylor, LPCC S – Child of a Police Officer In this episode, Jennifer and Ashlee break down the basics of EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) therapy and why it’s a powerful tool, particularly for first responders. Key Topics & Highlights Myth-Busting Therapy: Ashlee and Jennifer tackle common misconceptions about therapy, especially among first responders, who may expect only “talking about feelings” or the classic “comfy couch” setup. What is EMDR?: Explanation of EMDR, how it uses eye movements, tapping, and auditory cues to help the brain naturally process traumatic experiences. Why EMDR is effective?: EMDR mimics REM sleep and helps reconnect mind and body after stress and trauma. Why First Responders Like EMDR: Less talking, more structure, and a focus on physical reactions make it a good fit for those who may be hesitant about traditional therapy. Real-World Therapist Perspective: Jennifer and Ashlee share firsthand experiences, the importance of finding a good fit in therapy, and reassurance that it’s normal to need different approaches. Take Action: Consider researching EMDR from trusted sources. Check out our earlier episode (Brain Insights For High-Stress Lives!) with Dr. Coyt for a deeper look at how the brain processes stress. Final Thoughts: Therapy isn’t one-size-fits-all. EMDR offers hope and healing, especially for those in high-stress jobs.   For questions or more info, reach out to the hosts, and remember: When the call hits home, Jennifer and Ashlee are here for you.   Thank you for tuning in! Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review "When The Call Hits Home" on your favorite podcast platforms!   Follow Us: - Facebook: When The Call Hits Home Podcast - Instagram: @whenthecallhitshome - Whenthecallhitshome.com --- This podcast does not contain medical / health advice. It is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment and should not be relied on as health or personal advice. The information contained in this podcast is for general information purposes only. The information is provided by Training Velocity LLC and while we endeavour to keep the information up to date and correct, we make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the Podcast or the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in the podcast for any purpose. Any reliance you place on such information is strictly at your own risk.  WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE NOR LIABLE FOR ANY ADVICE, COURSE OF TREATMENT, DIAGNOSIS OR ANY OTHER INFORMATION, SERVICES OR PRODUCTS THAT YOU OBTAIN THROUGH THIS PODCAST.  Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment and before undertaking a new health care regimen, and never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast.

Hosts: Dr. Ashlee Gethner, LCSW – Child of a Police Officer Jennifer Woosley Saylor, LPCC S – Child of a Police Officer In this heartfelt and timely Thanksgiving episode, Ashlee and Jennifer dive deep into the role of gratitude and positive mindset amid the demanding lives of first responders and their families. They share personal stories, practical strategies for resilience, and how gratitude can shift perspectives even when everyday life is challenging and unpredictable. Key Topics & Highlights Gratitude as a Tool for Resiliency: Ashlee and Jennifer discuss how practicing gratitude is not just a feel-good exercise but an active skill-building strategy to combat cognitive distortions and negative bias especially crucial for those regularly exposed to trauma and high-stress environments. Skill Building for Mental Wellness: Jennifer emphasizes that building resilience isn’t a “one and done” event; it’s about consistent practice. Tools like “hunt the good stuff” (noting three positive things daily) are highlighted as simple yet powerful routines. Conference Insights: Fresh back from a first responder conference, Ashlee shares reflections on how hard it can be to see the good when surrounded by negativity, reinforcing the psychological data that most of our happiness comes from our mindset, not just our actions. Leadership & Positive Psychology: The conversation explores leadership within first responder agencies and the impact of balancing constructive feedback with genuine appreciation. They extend this message to parenting and home life, showing how positive reinforcement can shape culture. Family & Holiday Traditions: Both Jennifer and Ashlee reminisce about growing up with first responder parents and share how their families made the best of holiday schedules and traditions. Whether at home or on the job. Ashlee recalls her dad’s department football games, and Jennifer reflects on celebrations surrounding her grandmother’s birthday. Safety & Situational Awareness: Ashlee recounts a story from a trip to New Orleans, illustrating the “built-in” situational awareness many children of first responders carry into adulthood, and the value of trusting one’s gut. Thankful for Community: Ashlee and Jennifer express deep gratitude for their listeners and the growing WTCHH community, acknowledging the support, engagement, and the ongoing journey of connection. If this episode resonated with you or if you have stories to share about living with a first responder, reach out to Ashlee and Jennifer on their social media platforms! Thank you for tuning in! Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review "When The Call Hits Home" on your favorite podcast platforms!   Follow Us: - Facebook: When The Call Hits Home Podcast - Instagram: @whenthecallhitshome - Whenthecallhitshome.com --- This podcast does not contain medical / health advice. It is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment and should not be relied on as health or personal advice. The information contained in this podcast is for general information purposes only. The information is provided by Training Velocity LLC and while we endeavour to keep the information up to date and correct, we make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the Podcast or the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in the podcast for any purpose. Any reliance you place on such information is strictly at your own risk.  WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE NOR LIABLE FOR ANY ADVICE, COURSE OF TREATMENT, DIAGNOSIS OR ANY OTHER INFORMATION, SERVICES OR PRODUCTS THAT YOU OBTAIN THROUGH THIS PODCAST.  Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment and before undertaking a new health care regimen, and never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast.

Jennifer [00:00:00]: The purpose of gratitude is to help that other part of this, which is literally our mindset. Right. Our cognitive distortions and. And trying to change those to feel better. Jennifer [00:00:10]: Yeah, And I agree with that. And I think, you know, I do want to hold space. When you are seeing humanity at its worst or responding to a horrible accident or just seeing those things, it is going to leave an impression on your mindset. And I think that's why that work to kind of skill build and, man, it might feel really hard is so important. And, you know, skill building isn't. Well, I did that once, and I didn't change anything, so I'm done with it. No, skill building is doing something over and over and over again to really build that skill. Welcome back to the podcast. Jennifer [00:00:51]: I'm Jennifer. Ashlee [00:00:53]: And I'm Ashlee. Jennifer [00:00:54]: With a different voice this week at. Right, Ashlee. Ashlee [00:00:57]: Sorry, everyone. I don't know what's going on. So we're just. Jennifer [00:01:00]: It wasn't from screaming for the Bears, so we can, like, rule that out because, man, you've had some victories. Ashlee [00:01:06]: It didn't help. Well, we are on another victory. Well, now. Yeah, no, it's Monday still victory Monday. So that never does. That never helps. But, yeah, we're losing it. The voice is just not wanting to stay these days. Ashlee [00:01:20]: Welcome to the winter weather. Jennifer [00:01:23]: Yeah, but you're gonna make it. It's just us today. Our special guest is ourselves. So that's our special guest today. And in prep, I was like, oh, you know, what are we going to talk about? And then. Oh, duh. Next week is Thanksgiving. So I am. Ashlee [00:01:39]: Wait a minute. It's next week. Jennifer [00:01:40]: It is next week. Ashlee [00:01:41]: Oh, okay, everybody. I thought we had two weeks or something like that. That's wild. Jennifer [00:01:47]: Oh, my gosh. Ashlee [00:01:49]: Wait a minute. Yeah, because it's Monday. Jennifer [00:01:52]: Wow. Ashlee [00:01:53]: Welcome to the show. Okay. Yes. Jennifer [00:01:56]: I'm sorry, I might need to do a quick. Can you tell your name, your date of birth? Like, can I do a real quick assessment? Like, are you. Ashlee [00:02:04]: So, like, I feel like I have to tell everyone that I've been gone. Like Earth. Like, yeah, just gone. So, like, I. I feel like I'm so behind in everything. I don't even know what's happening right now. But I did not think I was next week. So, like, gratitude. Ashlee [00:02:20]: I'm thankful you told me. Jennifer [00:02:22]: There you go. Well, and you traveled on a Monday and a conference on a weekend. It is kind of like, what's up, down? Like, it's hard to. I could understand that for sure. Ashlee [00:02:31]: Who does that? Jennifer [00:02:32]: Yeah. I will say Thanksgiving is My favorite holiday. I love Thanksgiving. It's not just because of the food. Like, I just think thankfulness, gratitude is just a really incredible thing and tool, especially when it comes to resiliency. So I wanted to talk about that. And then I think you had some other stuff like from your conference that you wanted to talk about. So I think that's just kind of it for us today that we were going to cover. Ashlee [00:02:59]: Yeah. And that's what I love, is that like when our worlds collide like this. So one of my very favorite speakers at this conference, this was all he talked about was gratitude and our perception. Even as law enforcement. Right. And first responders in general, our perception going into every day really controls a lot of the outcome to things. And yet a lot of us decide to have a negative perception on stuff and then wonder why life around us is negative. Jennifer [00:03:25]: Well, and that's one thing that I'm sure everybody's probably sick of me talking about my military resiliency training. But one thing is I think sometimes we're not even trying to have a negative mindset. It's just a negative bias. Like our brains are wired, you know, to look out for the saber tooth tiger, to not eat the poisonous berries. That's why all the news is bad news. That is kind of a natural like survival instinct wiring. And so it takes takes a step to do that, to have that more like gratitude positive mindset, if you will. And one thing that like again is from the MRT training is hunt the good stuff. Jennifer [00:04:06]: I feel like maybe I've talked about that on here before though. Ashlee [00:04:08]: We'll retalk about it because we've been on this for a while, so people need to hear it. Right. Jennifer [00:04:12]: Like, but hunt the good stuff is always like a great thing. And again, Thanksgiving is of that where you just name what you're thankful for and hunt the good stuff. You're just looking about what you enjoyed about your day. And the goal is to actually like sit. It's not just to like, well, I had a good cup of coffee, traffic wasn't bad. I got my work done, I got home. The goal is actually to kind of sit and write down. And you know, write down can be pen and paper. Jennifer [00:04:41]: It can be your notes app, you know, writing down three things that were positive or three things that you're grateful. Ashlee [00:04:48]: For about your day. Jennifer [00:04:49]: So taking the time to write it down and then with that looking at what about it made it good. Like it's always nice to start the day without a lot of traffic. Right. What I always Appreciate is that question of how did that happen? You know, did it happen because I got up 10 minutes earlier or maybe it happened because I was running a little bit late and some of the traffic had moved, you know, just whatever that is. And so it's that idea of kind of sitting deeper with these things. And I think it's the same with the gratitude, you know, when we are sitting with what we're thankful for. Not just, I'm thankful for my family, I'm thankful for my friends. It's what about them? You know, what about that is something that we're grateful for. Jennifer [00:05:30]: And if we're in gratitude, we are not in an anxious mind. So if we're thinking about what we have, because anxiety is about that space and time in the future and if we can be present with what we do have and obtain in this moment. So that's the kind of hunt, the good stuff, the resiliency and why I was like, oh, this is a perfect time to take it, to talk about this with the holiday. Ashlee [00:05:52]: And I love that and I love how you just like, actually worded all that. It's super insightful and a huge tool for our listeners. Right. And I think that I've just come off of four days of hearing first responders say it's hard for me to see the good in life when all I see is bad. Jennifer [00:06:11]: Right? Ashlee [00:06:11]: Or like when you don't think something is possible, but then you see it firsthand. And, and that notion of, like, we had this huge talk about gratitude and the positive mindset and honestly, like, motivation and this whole thing is, it's just like I'm, I'm trying, but I, I don't even realize at this point that I don't do that. Like, all I see is negative. And I try to go out with my family, but all I'm doing is scanning the whole time. What if somebody comes in here and does something? What if. Right. And so I think people forget, like, or they just don't know which I didn't know either. And I don't know. Ashlee [00:06:44]: I'm full of facts. People will fact check me one day and we're going to get yelled at. But. And I've probably said it, but I'll say it a million times over because it just stuck with me that hard is that 90% of our, like, happiness and things like that actually come from our thought process and 10% comes from what we do. And that's wild because we sit on this show too. Like, and as therapists were like, hey, like Self care. Self care. Like, do the things you love. Ashlee [00:07:06]: Don't have the use to this and that. And while that's true, don't get me wrong, none of that goes away. So hold up, everybody, like, what the heck? The purpose of gratitude is to help that other part of this, which is literally our mindset. Right. Our cognitive distortions and trying to change those to feel better. Jennifer [00:07:25]: Yeah, And I agree with that. And I think, you know, I do want to hold space. When you are seeing humanity at its worst or responding to a horrible accident or just seeing those things, it is going to leave an impression on your mindset. And I think that's why that work to kind of skill build and man, it might feel really hard is so important. And, you know, skill building isn't. Well, I did that once and I didn't change anything. So I'm done with it. No, skill building is doing something over and over and over again to really build that skill. Jennifer [00:08:04]: And then I think to that point too, then we get into the territory of like, man, I can't ever do this. Like, well, then maybe this experience that you had at work is too much. And, like, we do need to go talk to a professional and explore options to save. Like, maybe there was a traumatic event that's happening that's kind of creating some dysregulation that maybe, you know. Well, I. I sit and journal for an hour, and gratitude's not really going to touch that for sure. Ashlee [00:08:31]: Yeah, absolutely. I think about the guests we've had on. Right. And like, our last episode was so incredibly powerful. Jennifer [00:08:38]: Oh, it was. Ashlee [00:08:39]: I was so grateful for that. Oh, my gosh, the story. Oh, it's like to be vulnerable, to talk about that was so powerful. And yet when I sit back and reflect on that. Sure. We didn't sit there and say, hey, tell us what you're grateful for now. Right. Like, we didn't specifically ask that question, but I challenge our listeners to go back and listen to that episode or listen to a few of them and identify the positives out of these horrific stories, because they are there. Ashlee [00:09:06]: I don't want our first responders to walk around feeling like they're not doing those things. They are. We just have to have that intentionality behind it sometimes. Jennifer [00:09:13]: Well, and I think you speak to that vulnerability. I think it can be like a practice and vulnerability exercise to name what we have. You know, I've worked with people that would have some fear about naming what's good, because fear of if I name it some, maybe that would be taken from Me or I wouldn't get to have those experiences. And so I do think that it's an act in vulnerability, but in a healthy way too, you know, that's not something you have to share with anybody. Nobody has to ever know that. And then on the other side of that too, like, I feel like you are always doing a great job of banging the drum for leadership. It's also a great thing to, like, incorporate in, in terms of, like, encouraging people that you're leading to say, hey, this is a practice that can be sometimes kind of helpful, you know. Yeah, well, and I think you think about where you are when you start a shift and where you are when you end a shift. Jennifer [00:10:06]: I mean, even for your conference, you know where you are when you started your conference to being like, worn out and what day is it at the end of stuff, it can be really hard for us to be at that place. And so sometimes it's a nice way to kind of say, like, here's something I do have control over because I don't know what I'm going to be walking into when it comes to work. Ashlee [00:10:24]: I'm so excited that you just brought up leadership. My nerdy heart. And I won't, I won't. I will go down it a little bit and back off. I thought my brain went, ooh, let's talk a little bit about, like, positive psychology. All those things. And yet what it comes back to is trying to reel it in because everyone's going to be like, ashley, we did not ask for a six hour episode. Jennifer [00:10:46]: Your voice isn't gonna last long. Terrible. Ashlee [00:10:49]: And you just went on a rant for six hours. But when we were working on some advanced peer support in our department, positive psychology got brought up. And I was like, yes, this is so true. This is exciting. And we did have people of leadership in that room. And, you know, one of them was very open to be like, oh, man. Like, that's not my style. My style is not to be like, hey, you did a really good job on this. Ashlee [00:11:15]: My style is to be like, hey, we need to work on this. Right? And yet he was like, I don't purposely do that, but I think, you know, like, he's like, in my brain, I'm helping, like, I'm identifying areas. But I didn't stop to think that I should probably be pointing out the good too, that they're doing. Jennifer [00:11:33]: Right. Ashlee [00:11:33]: I don't want innocent, but, like, in a way, innocent of like, yeah, I would never want people to feel like I'm being negative. I Just thought I was doing the right thing by educating them when I saw something that can be approved upon, which is very true in a leadership role. Jennifer [00:11:48]: Absolutely. Ashlee [00:11:49]: And yet the difference we can make in morale when we also balance that with identifying the good that's done too. And I think leadership plays a huge part in that. It starts from the top. If the top is doing that, the rest start to follow. Jennifer [00:12:04]: Right. Well, and again, I think that you're exactly right, that that's a very innocent thing. And I think that. I don't know. I grew up in a generation was a. You could do five things right, but you're going to be called out for the one thing you didn't do. Like, that's just. But I think that that leads him back to that kind of how human brains are wired. Jennifer [00:12:23]: It is that negative bias

Hosts: Dr. Ashlee Gethner, LCSW – Child of a Police Officer Jennifer Woosley Saylor, LPCC S – Child of a Police Officer Guest: Larry Fraser, CMCP - 911 Director River County 911, 35 years experience as a First Responder: 911, as a jailer, EMT and Deputy Sheriff, currently serving as 2nd VP for KY APC In this powerful episode, Ashlee and Jennifer are joined by Larry Fraser, an experienced 911 Director from Kentucky, as he shares his remarkable journey through decades of first responder work. Larry opens up about the deep personal impact of being a dispatcher, recounting critical incidents that shaped his life including the loss of a loved one during a shift, and a tragic accident involving his neighbor. He dives into the often-overlooked emotional toll dispatchers face and candidly discusses his battles with PTSD, the struggle for closure, and the transformative power of seeking mental health support. Key Discussion Points: Dispatchers in the Spotlight: Larry sheds light on the disconnect between dispatchers and other first responders, emphasizing the need for greater recognition of dispatchers’ experiences and trauma. Critical Incidents & PTSD: He reflects on the anniversary of a life-changing call, the tragic accident of his fiancée and her child which led to personal trauma that wasn’t acknowledged for decades. Seeking Help & Recovery: Larry details his eventual diagnosis of PTSD, the process of seeking mental health support, and the life-changing relief he found through programs like PCIS and EMDR therapy. Work Culture, Family, and Healing: The episode explores how dispatchers often carry a caretaker mentality, sometimes at the expense of their own health, and the importance of self-care in restoring personal relationships. Advocacy, Training, and Leadership: Larry shares his passion for improving mental health resources, training, and peer support structures for dispatchers, hoping to pave the way for the next generation.   If this episode resonated with you or if you have stories to share about living with a first responder, reach out to Ashlee and Jennifer on their social media platforms! Thank you for tuning in! Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review "When The Call Hits Home" on your favorite podcast platforms!   Follow Us: - Facebook: When The Call Hits Home Podcast - Instagram: @whenthecallhitshome - Whenthecallhitshome.com --- This podcast does not contain medical / health advice. It is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment and should not be relied on as health or personal advice. The information contained in this podcast is for general information purposes only. The information is provided by Training Velocity LLC and while we endeavour to keep the information up to date and correct, we make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the Podcast or the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in the podcast for any purpose. Any reliance you place on such information is strictly at your own risk.  WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE NOR LIABLE FOR ANY ADVICE, COURSE OF TREATMENT, DIAGNOSIS OR ANY OTHER INFORMATION, SERVICES OR PRODUCTS THAT YOU OBTAIN THROUGH THIS PODCAST.  Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment and before undertaking a new health care regimen, and never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast.

Ashlee [00:00:00]: Law enforcement is huge on this podcast, but we're trying to hit everyone. And here you are saying, like, this was my life as a dispatcher and I do think there is a disconnect sometimes. And I think that's something that I have learned from working in this field. I do think dispatchers don't get recognized enough for these incidences, for the stuff that they hear, that they go through. And look at this. You're saying this was personal to me too. Like this was my own call that I, that I took. Right. Ashlee [00:00:25]: And. And ptsd. It doesn't matter who you are. It doesn't discriminate. You can get it no matter what. And I think that's so incredibly important to share and. Jennifer [00:00:35]: Hi, welcome back to when the Call Hits Home. Ashlee [00:00:37]: This is Jennifer and I'm Ashlee. And today we have an incredible guest. I'm going to change the word. Well, I'm just going to say I say special every single time, but we're going to say incredible. And we're extremely excited to have him on because we're finally covering an area in which we've been saying we were going to grab. So before I go way too deep into this, I'm going to allow you to introduce yourself. Larry Fraser [00:00:58]: My name is Larry Frazier. I am the 911 director of a newly formed River County 911. We just recently combined Ballard and Carlisle county here in Kentucky into 1911-center. We took them over almost a year ago and we are in the final steps of getting everything completely finished. Their 911s now roll over to our department. So we're covering two counties now. We was able to increase our staff a little bit too for this. So it's been a very challenging year over the last year. Larry Fraser [00:01:29]: But I've been the 911 director here for Carlisle county before we merged for the last five years. Jennifer [00:01:36]: That's awesome, Larry, and I appreciate you sharing that. And it is hard making mergers happen, isn't it? Larry Fraser [00:01:43]: It's been very fun, though. We got a nice $400,000 grant from the state to do the merger. Ashlee [00:01:49]: Hey, Kentucky. Larry Fraser [00:01:50]: And to let us update everything we've got. So now our little bitty county of population less than 5,000 has now taken over a county with about 15,000 residents. And that 400,000 has allowed us to upgrade everything to next gen 911. Jennifer [00:02:07]: Wonderful to hear. Larry Fraser [00:02:09]: We have video to 911. We have text to 911. We have translation on 911 that's live. So if we get somebody that calls in speaking Spanish. Our system automatically translates everything for us. Jennifer [00:02:22]: It's really wonderful. Those real communities need those things too, Larry. So that's great. So just got to jump in here and tell me a little bit how and how being a first responder, 911, how mental health kind of plays into that. Larry Fraser [00:02:38]: Well, when I first got started, I was the very first 911 director here in Carlisle county in 1991. Wow. When we. Ashlee [00:02:46]: I wasn't born yet. Larry Fraser [00:02:48]: We don't need you to say when we first got. We first got the little red phone that 911 calls came in on. I have left 911 got into the state. Back then, mental health was not something that was ever a forefront of it back there. That was early times where PTSD was really coming out with just being a soldier's problem. That's something that was never on the forefront. Never even thought it would cross my mind when I went to college, that I would. Those psychology classes I took in college, I'd actually put into action sometime in my life. Larry Fraser [00:03:21]: But I came back into 911 in 2019 after semi retiring from my other job. Been in first responder my entire life. My father was Sheriff in the 70s, early 70s, mid 70s. My brother, myself are both 911 directors, both in EMS. I've been in law enforcement. I've worked with fire departments. It wasn't until after my second critical incident that mental health even really came to my mind that it's something that first responders needed. Once I went to PCIs for the first time in 2022, that's when my eyes were really opened and I've kind of dove off the deep end since that point. Larry Fraser [00:04:03]: I've taken several training classes to keep up with pcis. I just joined Kentucky's kccrt, which is Kentucky Community Crisis Response Team. Wow. I'm also a vice president of Kentucky apco. And with that, it's offered me the opportunity to be chairman of a small work group study where we are currently writing the standards, the National Standards for Peer Support Training. Ashlee [00:04:33]: Ooh, that's incredible. Larry Fraser [00:04:36]: The help that I got through PCIs utterly changed my life. That's when it really got into me that this is something that I'm passionate about, something that I wanted to make sure that I could bring it back home, put it to work here in my local dispatch center, be able to go to other dispatch centers and help those that are in times of need. Jennifer [00:04:56]: You know, I always like to hear that, and I always think that so part of the first responder world. Is when someone gets help how much they want to help somebody else. You know, I have to be honest, I didn't realize that you're dad was a sheriff. Ashlee [00:05:10]: I didn't know either. Jennifer [00:05:12]: Kind of grew up in a first responder home. You know, Ashlee and I talk about that in terms of our experience. Is there anything that was unique about having your dad be the sheriff? Larry Fraser [00:05:23]: That was probably where we, our family was first touched with. Our first traumatic incident was when I was 8 years old. My dad was working a semi wreck and a drunk driver ran through the roadblock and clipped our dad from behind. Flipped him up over the top of two or three patrol cars and he was in a leg cast for over a year because mangled his leg in so many ways. So a lot of the state troopers that worked this area after dad got to where he could be a little bit mobile even with his leg in a cast all the way up, they would come pick dad up for patrol. They would pick him up, they would drive him around, take him out on call and they just. We grew up with a house full of law enforcement officers. Ashlee [00:06:09]: That's incredible. I mean that's a sad story, but that's. I definitely understand what it's like to be kind of surrounded by them. Both Jennifer and I do. And it's. It's really unique. We talk about that a lot with being a child of a first responder. Is that like you just. Ashlee [00:06:22]: I don't know how to explain it. You don't get it unless you get it right. And. And then I think we grow these. We talk about this all the time. We're pretty resilient children and we just grow up to like a lot of us wanting to help others, which is so beautiful. Larry Fraser [00:06:33]: And I think that's what built the desire me and my younger brother both to get into first responding is. Was because of our father. Our older brother, he took it a different route and he joined the military and he. He retired. He retired out of the military. Wow. Ashlee [00:06:51]: So something I do want to kind of. Because I thought this was awesome. I hope it's okay that I share that like you reached out to us via our platform, which is exactly what we want. Like we love that. We love. Larry Fraser [00:07:02]: I love listening to your podcast. Ashlee [00:07:04]: Thank you so much. That makes my heart so happy. And we love engaging with. With you guys. So like immediately I was like, yes, he's got to come on. Right. And we want others to do that too. And I know one thing that you had said in your message is that you also. Ashlee [00:07:17]: And like you just shared, you've been through your own critical incidences. I don't know if you're interested in opening up about kind of what in your career now, especially 911 dispatch. What has maybe led you to this point of being like, I have to be more involved. And if, if you don't want to, that's okay too. I just know that you were, you were open about that in your message a little bit. Larry Fraser [00:07:34]: It, it probably started with my first critical incident as a 911 dispatcher. Yesterday marks the 33rd anniversary of that call. October 28, 1992. I was working a midnight shift, our dispatch center. I had two other dispatchers that worked for me. One of them had been involved in a car wreck, so everybody was out of place. So I was pulling double shifts. Back then, the sheriff's office did dispatch from 8 to 4 and I ran dispatch from 4 o' clock to 8 o' clock in the morning. Larry Fraser [00:08:08]: Oh my God. So I was dispatching one night and my fiance at the time had just called me about 7:15, told me that she was getting ready to get, get ready. She was in a college at the time and she was getting ready to go to her class and she said, hey, do you want me to bring you by breakfast? I said, sure. I said, I never turned down food. So she had a son when we met and she was going to run him by the babysitter and then she was going to come and visit me at dispatch before she had to go off to school. Just like a typical day. We talked, she said she'd be en route, everything went down. And just probably 25, 30 minutes after that point, somewhere around 7:30, 7:40, I got a call from a lady close to my residence, said that somebody had stopped at her house and said that there was a man and a little boy that had run off the road and had a wreck. Larry Fraser [00:09:03]: So I go into 911 dispatch mode. I dispatch out my ambulance service, I dispatch out my rescue squad, call my sheriff, wake him up, get him en route, and just business as usual. Got everybody headed that way. They said it was a man and a small child. So everybody's going that way. And things, people start getting on scene, but they're not talking back to me very much. And then the babysitter calls me and said, hey, Larry, have you seen, Is Alicia coming down to drop Adam off today? I said, yeah, I spoke to her about 30 minutes ago. There's a wreck close to our house. Larry Fraser [00:09:37]: Maybe she's delayed in the wreck. Then I Get another call. And the lady says, I want to report a wreck down here. She said, I hear ambulances and sirens in the distance, but I just wanted to tell you there's a girl and a small child off in the ravine. It was at that point in time that every hair on the back of my neck stood up. And I knew. I knew that that was Alicia. So I start getting everybody in route again. Larry Fraser [00:10:02]: People start going on scene, and I start trying to get information from them. They won't tell me anything. And I just keep getting, standby, standby, we've got something. Then somebody would call and say, hey, we need another medic. Can you see if you can find another medic to meet us here or in route? So I start making the calls. I still have the recordings of this 911 call. It's probably not a good mental health thing to admit, but I have them on my phone, and I've listened to them from time to time, and I've also used them to speak to others. Say, hey, this is what I went through. Larry Fraser [00:10:40]: But they've got the patients loaded up. They're getting ready to head to the emergency room. Sheriff's on scene. I holler at him. I said, can you tell me if this is my 1012? Which means friend or family? And he says, well, I'm in route to dispatch right now. I said, no, can you tell me if this is my 1012? He said, I'm en route. And about that time, his wife worked for him in the office. And she says, larry, I'm here if you need to leave. Larry Fraser [00:11:07]: And then I asked the sheriff again, I said, is this my 10 12? And he said, 10 4. I jump out of. I wasn't. I was also an EMT at the time. I jump out of dispatch. I get into my truck. I don't know how I caught an ambulance running code three, but I caught him. They radioed them. Larry Fraser [00:11:25]: I got in the back of the ambulance, and as soon as I got in the back of the ambulance, they turned me and said, here, you work on the child, Adam, and we'll take care of everything else. The rest is. The story is she didn't make it. She was pretty much DOA on scene, but they ran code on her because of who she was. Right. And I went to counseling after that. But the counseling I went to at that point in time was Christian counseling. Um, I am Christian, so that's. Larry Fraser [00:11:53]: I thought was appropriate, but it never really stuck with me of what transpired. Right. Let's Fast forward almost 25 years to my second incident when I found out that what had happened to me that day was that I had PTSD. My second incident was not 911 related or first responder related. I was working my job for the state of Kentucky as a pretrial officer. We done interviews on everybody that gets arrested, get their bonds set, get them a court date. And I'd been out that morning seeing a couple of people at the local jail. And I was coming back home to pick up a cargo trailer because we were moving into a new office and I was going to pick up my trailer so we can move furniture and supplies to the new office. Larry Fraser [00:12:43]: Was about a mile and a half from my house and my neighbor Thrivey was out mowing his yard. Early morning, June 9, 8, 10am he was mowing his yard and he really loved mowing his yard. He did not want lines in his yard. He was one of those lines back and forth. And Mr. Ivy, to keep those lines, would pull out into the middle of the road and turn around, right? I come down that road, I drove down that road. Drive. He pulled out in front of me. Larry Fraser [00:13:14]: I hit him. He went over the top of my Tahoe. When I wrecked into the trees and into the fence line. I look up in my rearview mirror And I see Mr. Ivey laying in the middle of the ground. And instantly I thought I'd killed Mr. Ivy. I get out of the truck, I run to him. Larry Fraser [00:13:31]: Several of the neighbors are there. They say, hey, we're calling 911. This ma

Hosts: Dr. Ashlee Gethner, LCSW – Child of a Police Officer Jennifer Woosley Saylor, LPCC S – Child of a Police Officer Guest: Mike Mudd - USAF Veteran, Retired Paramedic Captain, & Realtor® In this powerful and candid episode, Ashlee and Jennifer are joined by Mike Mudd, a Louisville-based realtor, former paramedic, and USAF veteran. Mike reveals his journey through 25 years in EMS, the emotional toll of responding to critical incidents, and the struggles first responders face in accessing mental health support. With raw honesty, he shares personal stories of trauma, resilience, and the importance of recognizing and caring for the people behind the uniform. Key Discussion Points: Mike’s Career Journey - Started as a dispatcher; worked up to EMT and then paramedic and Captain in Louisville EMS service.Transitioned to real estate after reaching burnout in EMS. Childhood Influences - Grew up in a split family with a police officer stepfather. Discussed Mike's childhood fascination with sirens, lights, and law enforcement. Reality of EMS Work - Describing the unpredictability and independence required in EMS. Mike shares stories of traumatic calls, the emotional aftermath, and the lack of support systems during his tenure. Highlighting the emotional toll, including PTSD and worst-case scenario thinking. Mental Health & Support - Mike discusses the lack of formal debriefing or mental health resources for EMS crews during his career. Makes a strong case for mandatory mental health checkups for first responders following major incidents and talks openly about the effects of trauma on personal relationships and daily life. Leadership & Recognition - Reflection on management challenges and the importance of leadership that sees and supports its people. The group advocates for more recognition and appreciation for EMS, dispatchers, and corrections staff. Mike suggests that small gestures of affirmation (even a $2 ribbon) can drive morale and healing. Family & Grief - Mike shares how his family's background in law enforcement shaped his worldview and relationships, with talks about coping with the loss of loved ones and choosing to live joyfully as a tribute to those lost. Humor & Coping Mechanisms - Mike explains how humor, pranks, and camaraderie help crews decompress from the harsh reality of first responder work. He emphasizes the importance of healthy ways to release stress, sometimes misunderstood by the outside world.   Want to get in touch with Mike? 

Mike Mudd [00:00:00]: When we would have a critical incident, I didn't have any mechanisms. I wanted to help people. I'd bring them in and talk with them, but that's all we really had. It was get them back out on the street, get them back on the next run. But that wasn't the best thing. You know, a lot of stuff stuck with people. A lot of people leave the field or really become just bitter, angry people. And I'm like, you need to leave. Mike Mudd [00:00:21]: Like, you need to go do something else. But, you know, you can't force somebody to leave that field and go do something else. But you can see it. Jennifer [00:00:29]: Hi, welcome back to when the Call Hits Home. Ashlee [00:00:31]: This is Jennifer and I'm Ashlee. Jennifer [00:00:34]: And Ashlee, you know, this one's been a long time in the making. Our guest today is Mike Mudd. And when we first started this podcast, I was in conversation with our guest today, and I'm so excited that we finally have gotten him on the podcast. So, Mike, I'm just going to hand it to you and you tell us a little bit about who you are and we'll go from there. Mike Mudd [00:00:53]: Oh, my gosh. Well, I'm excited to be on today. It has been a long time and been friends for a while, so I'm excited to be on this and tell a little bit of my previous life and experiences and what I've been through and how it relates to what you guys do. And so I'm excited to be here. Jennifer [00:01:09]: Well, you mentioned past life, so tell us a little bit what you do now and then what your career was before. Mike Mudd [00:01:15]: So I am a realtor now. Been doing this for a little over 12 years, 12 and a half years now. Coming up on 13 years for that. I was a paramedic here in Louisville. I did that for 25 years. The last several years, I was a captain over operations for private service. When I was on duty, I was in charge of everything from dispatch to the crews to discipline to making critical scene runs and helping out the crews and mentoring and things like that, which seemed to be fantastic. When I was a street medic. Mike Mudd [00:01:51]: I was like, I want to be that person. And I did love it. But ultimately managing people was where I got to is like, this is not as much fun as it looked like from the outside. And so managing the cruise and things like that really got me to a point where I'm like, I'm not looking forward to going to work anymore because I know I've got to deal with this, this, this person and this person. I know it's Going to be difficult. That's when I really started. Like 25 years is probably enough. And I need to look into my next career. Mike Mudd [00:02:19]: And I dug around a little bit and looked at nursing programs because that's a natural. Ashlee [00:02:24]: Right. Mike Mudd [00:02:24]: Transition from paramedic to nursing. I just wanted to get out of the medical field completely. And I grew up watching this old house on. Yeah. And all of those remodeling shows. And just I'm like, well, let me talk to some friends in real estate. Long story short, I took my test, got my license, and it just exploded for me. Changed my life. Mike Mudd [00:02:48]: A lot of things I've been exposed to and a lot of work I've done on myself has been through going to conferences and different self help speakers. And I do and continue to do a lot of work on me because I. I need a lot of work. So. And you know, dating back before that, I grew up here in Louisville. I was part of a split flat family. My mom and dad got divorced when I was about 1. My mom remarried my stepdad who was a police officer and I was about three and my dad remarried when I was about six. Mike Mudd [00:03:25]: I've always had two sets of parents, but I live with my mom and my stepdad who was the police officer. Yeah. Jennifer [00:03:32]: You know, Mike, I only knew you as a realtor and it's so funny like, you know, you've had a couple past lives before we got to know each other. I do think. And people need to know if they're in the Louisville area and need a house that they need to reach out because you're amazing. Again, I've only ever known you as a realtor and only hear great stuff about that. But we do want to talk a little bit about kind of what drew you to becoming a paramedic in terms of that as your first career. Mike Mudd [00:03:58]: Well, that was not what I was going to do at all. Obviously, you know, my stepdad was a police officer and that's what I wanted to be when I grew up from I can remember always I wanted to be a cop. I went from my big wheel days to my bicycle days. I always, I made this blinking with my eyes for the blue lights because my stepdad was a detective and he had unmarked cars and in his grill he had these blue lights. And when he pulled in the driveway, if I was in the driveway, he turned those on. And I love. Yeah, I would do that with my eyes when we played cops and robbers. Ashlee [00:04:40]: I love that. Mike Mudd [00:04:41]: And I made a siren with my voice. Oh, I was always a cop. And so the joke was that I was going to grow up to be a police car. So I was always fascinated with the lights and the sirens and all of that. My plan was I was going to graduate high school, and then I was going to go into the Air Force. And when I got out of the Air Force, I was going to be a cop. And so I remember telling my stepdad, at one point, though, I saw an ambulance driving there. I was like, oh, I think I want to do that. Mike Mudd [00:05:13]: He's like, no, you don't want to do that. And I'm like, why not? He's like, people throw up in your mouth. And I'm like, okay, I'm out. I'm good. My mom didn't want me to be a cop. She had him bring home some homicide pictures one time to try and discourage me from doing that, to, like, scare me out of it. And I just loved it. Like, oh, these are. Ashlee [00:05:33]: Wait, sign me up even more. Mike Mudd [00:05:35]: Yeah, I had those for years. Up until probably five years ago, I was going through some stuff. I said, I should probably shred these. Like, if somebody goes through these pictures when I die, they're going to be, like, weird. So I went into the Air Force, and then I got out home, and I ended up being a paramedic. Long story short, I got a job as a dispatcher and just worked my way up from dispatcher to EMT to medic to running the service. Ashlee [00:06:04]: But wait, hold up. We were in the Air Force, too. I had no idea. Mike Mudd [00:06:09]: I was in the Air Force, too. Yeah, I was a F16 crew chief in the Air Force. I wanted to be a cop in the Air Force, but my depth perception apparently was off, so it disqualified me from being a cop in the Air Force. I mean, it hasn't really affected my life at all, but I ended up being a crew Chief on the F16, which is a really fun job. So I was a guy that did all of this and did all these actions, and it was fun, but I didn't want to do that in the civilian world when I got out. So. Jennifer [00:06:37]: Understandably. Understandably. I love that about being a little kid and being in the car, but you know how it all kind of comes back around? That's amazing to kind of share that. I appreciate that. Ashlee [00:06:48]: Yeah, I had to laugh because I'm like, that's what it was for me. Like, I don't know. That would be the best part. If you did a ride along or something. I'd be like, dad, just let me hit the sirens. Just Let me hit the lights. Like, I knew where those buttons were in every squad. I'm like, let's go. Ashlee [00:07:03]: So that made me laugh, too. I think what's really cool is we haven't had. We've been in search of finding somebody in the EMS world to come on here because we really want to represent, right? And. And we haven't had this amaz, amazing opportunities. So I'm so grateful that you're here. And I wanted to ask if you could just describe maybe a little bit of what a typical day or night, whatever that shift was for you kind of looked like on the job. Mike Mudd [00:07:26]: Well, you know, EMS is a different animal than fire police, ems. We are very independent and we think independently, which is what makes you good at the job, because when you're on the scene, nothing's the same. And everybody's signs and symptoms and stuff are all different. So we have to think independently on our feet. And so it's much different than the fire service or the police department. It's like when this happens, you put water on it or you put. You know, and so. And we're like. Mike Mudd [00:07:56]: We're all over the place. You know, whether it's a stroke or a heart attack or trauma and car accidents, it's always. You always having to. Each situation presents its own unique challenges. I guess a day in the life or a night in the life, because you work both shifts, a lot of times, times would be mostly sitting around. You do a lot of that now. When I work for the city, I worked for, like, our unit, and our shift was ranked, like, fifth busiest in the nation. Oh, wow. Mike Mudd [00:08:23]: Here in Louisville, which was surprising. A lot of it is whole hum stuff. I've had a cold for three days. You know, sick babies, parents don't know what to do with the kids, or they call because they're throwing up blood. And when we get there, we're like, oh, well, you know, what do they have to eat today? What are they. They had cherry popsicles all day. And so the blood isn't blood. It's just cherry popsicles. Mike Mudd [00:08:47]: Dealing with fevers and delivering babies and things like this. So a lot of it is kind of not too exciting. We say it's 80%, kind of boring, not really needed EMS stuff, and 20% of some of the craziest stuff you could ever imagine in your life. You know, you're in the middle of a shooting situation, and you're in a house or you're on the street and people are screaming and yelling, and sometimes the police are there. First, they usually are now. Back when I was doing it, they weren't. It was kind of our goal was to beat the police to everything. Kind of a challenge we both had against each other. Mike Mudd [00:09:21]: Police were trapped, and we tried. Some of the stuff was crazy. But when you're that type of person, that's what you thrive in. You thrive in bringing some calm to chaos. That's what I loved. I love being. Once I got my medic, I love that. I love being the person that the police were there and the fire department were there, and they're all freaking out because babies are dying and not breathing because they're dealing with their own thing. Mike Mudd [00:09:46]: And then when you walk in, it's like the paramedics here, here. And I'm like, oh, yeah, give them to me. You know, this is what I do. And I did enjoy that part of it. To be able to bring some calm to some of the most craziest things that some people experience in their life. Just being able to slow down and slow your speech down and. And speak in a calm manner, and you slow your cadence down. The crazier it is, the slower I talked and the quieter that I would die. Mike Mudd [00:10:14]: I would get very monotone with people just trying to calm them down. Most of the time. Jennifer [00:10:21]: Yeah. Mike Mudd [00:10:21]: Sometimes you just had to play the game and yell at them and cuss at them and tie them down and. But the next, you know, once you get them under control, then you're back into the, okay, let's deal with the situation here minute by minute. So it was a very, very emotional mind kind of field, and you just, you know, you deal with a lot of stuff, and you just. You file it away. Because when I did it, there was no. They were just starting to do some of the critical debriefing, but we didn't have any of that. You just sucked it up and you went to work. Yeah, I had partners that had kids, and we made kids that were. Mike Mudd [00:10:59]: Died in the night or different things. And your partner is losing their crap and cuss on your. Your. Ashlee [00:11:08]: You can. The one that will drop it. Mike Mudd [00:11:11]: Okay, good. Yeah. When your partner's losing their shit. Ashlee [00:11:13]: Yeah. Mike Mudd [00:11:14]: Partner has to, like, calm down. I've got this. You go, walk away. Let me deal with this. And they would do the same thing for you, for the most part, so. Jennifer [00:11:22]: Well, I appreciate you sharing all that. And I was wondering, like, when you became a captain, that kind of knowing people's, you know, what's a good fit? Or knowing somebody has a family and they're showing up To a child incident, Is that something that played when you were kind of in that leadership role more? Or was it more the frustration of getting shifts covered? That was tougher, all of that and. Mike Mudd [00:11:49]: Holding crews over because we didn't have enough crews to cover the run volume that was coming in and. And people wanting to go home and go home to their families or, you know, they've been on shift for 10 or 12 hours and you're like, I can't let you go because we don't have enough people here to cover what we have. And that was struggle because I felt really bad because I've been in that position. I've been that person that had to get mandatory and, you know, they're tired and they're exhausted and what kind of medic are they showing up as for their patients when they're tired and they're upset and they're angry, that was difficult, too, and difficult for them to manage as well. Because you want people to show up at their best when other people are really at their worst. But anything for me was when we would have a critical incident. I didn't have any mechanisms. I wanted to help people. Mike Mudd [00:12:38]: I'd bring them in and talk with them, but that's all we really had. It was get them back out on the street, get them back on the next run. But that wasn't the best thing. You know, a lot of stuff stuck with people. A lot of people leave the field or. Or really become just bitter, angry people. And I'm like, you need to leave. Like, you need to go do something else. Mike Mudd [00:12:57]

Hosts: Dr. Ashlee Gethner, LCSW – Child of a Police Officer Jennifer Woosley Saylor, LPCC S – Child of a Police Officer Guest: Kristin Greathouse, BSN, RN, NC-BC - Wife & Child of a First Responder In this insightful episode, hosts Jennifer and Ashlee welcome the extraordinary Kristin Greathouse - nurse, board-certified nurse coach, first responder spouse and daughter to unpack the unique challenges and strengths of families serving on the front lines. They delve into Kristin’s personal journey, the crucial differences between coaching and therapy, and how coaching serves as a vital resource for first responder families navigating stress, trauma, and the demands of their roles. Key Discussion Points: Kristin’s Story: Kristin shares her background as both a child and spouse of first responders, her own path to nursing (including returning to school at 40!), and why she became passionate about nurse coaching. Nurse Coaching Explained: What nurse coaching is, how it differs from traditional therapy, and why it’s particularly impactful for those in high-stress professions and their families. Family Dynamics & First Responders: Kristin opens up about the realities of marriage to a police officer, navigating hypervigilance, and the importance of building a peaceful home sanctuary. Themes in Coaching First Responder Families: Common struggles such as apologizing for feelings, putting oneself last, and the journey toward self-worth. Self-Care that Actually Works: Kristin and the hosts exchange quick, practical self-care tools that resonate for first responders and their loved ones from tactical breathing and body scans to journaling (even with video!) and honest emotional expression. Coaching in Real Life: How coaching techniques help defuse tension and promote understanding at home, plus why you shouldn’t take your partner’s work stress personally. Supporting First Responder Kids: Reflections on growing up in a first responder household, the role of resilience, and insights for children (and parents) who carry these unique experiences.   Resources & Tips Mentioned:   EMDR therapy for trauma Tactical (box) breathing techniques Video and written journaling Progressive muscle relaxation Want to get in touch with Kristin?  Email: kmhgreathouse@gmail.com If this episode resonated with you or if you have stories to share about living with a first responder, reach out to Ashlee and Jennifer on their social media platforms! Thank you for tuning in! Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review "When The Call Hits Home" on your favorite podcast platforms!   Follow Us: - Facebook: When The Call Hits Home Podcast - Instagram: @whenthecallhitshome - Whenthecallhitshome.com --- This podcast does not contain medical / health advice. It is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment and should not be relied on as health or personal advice. The information contained in this podcast is for general information purposes only. The information is provided by Training Velocity LLC and while we endeavour to keep the information up to date and correct, we make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the Podcast or the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in the podcast for any purpose. Any reliance you place on such information is strictly at your own risk.  WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE NOR LIABLE FOR ANY ADVICE, COURSE OF TREATMENT, DIAGNOSIS OR ANY OTHER INFORMATION, SERVICES OR PRODUCTS THAT YOU OBTAIN THROUGH THIS PODCAST.  Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment and before undertaking a new health care regimen, and never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast.

Kristin Greathouse [00:00:00]: Things that I see a lot is that they apologize for their feelings and that they don't take care of themselves. And so I always hope that I get that across when I'm meeting with any of them, that they are important and they are special and they are valued. And, you know, I hope as. As we work together that they feel that and they start to believe that themselves. Sometimes you need somebody to believe it for you first, just to keep supporting you in that, and then hopefully eventually they'll start believing it themselves. Jennifer [00:00:34]: All right, welcome back to the podcast. I'm Jennifer. Ashlee [00:00:37]: And I'm Ashlee. And literally, I'm going to start it off the way I said I would. We have a guest who does all the incredible things. I can't. I can't even personally name them all because she's that amazing. So what we will do is we will have her introduce herself and tell us a little bit about what she does and what we're going to talk about today. So I'm going to hand it over to you. Hi. Kristin Greathouse [00:00:59]: Thank you. I am Kristin Greathouse. I am the wife of a first responder. I am the daughter of a first responder. My dad's a firefighter. My husband is a police officer. I am a nurse, and I am actually a board certified nurse coach. So I'm. Jennifer [00:01:18]: You have it all. Kristin Greathouse [00:01:18]: Trying to do a whole other. Ashlee [00:01:20]: I wasn't kidding. I started us with a banger. Were just talking about all the things about this podcast, and then here I am throwing a curveball, 0.5 seconds in this whole dynamic of dad being a firefighter but married to a police officer, that wouldn't have worked out in my house. My dad said, you are not allowed to date those firefighters. So I am. Oof. I'm impressed how you snuff that one in there. Kristin Greathouse [00:01:44]: It's funny. So my husband and I grew up together. He's just a couple years older than me. I've known him since I was a baby, and we never dated in high school or anything like that. It wasn't until we were much older. But he knew my dad and he was always very respectful of my dad. My dad, I think, was impressed by that. Just of this young kid who was, you know, very respectful and. Ashlee [00:02:06]: What? Kristin Greathouse [00:02:06]: Yes. Yes. Ashlee [00:02:07]: Yeah, right? Kristin Greathouse [00:02:08]: Yes. Should have known it was going to lead to somebody. But they have a great time joking around about firefighters and cops. So it's a fun time when we get together. Jennifer [00:02:21]: Well, it sounds like you've made a bridge between firefighting and policing. And I really want to talk about this bridge you have with being a licensed nurse and coaching. So can you tell us just a little bit about. I guess maybe back up and tell us a little bit what nurse coaching is and then it kind of explain your trajectory in terms of how it was something that interests you. Kristin Greathouse [00:02:41]: Absolutely. Nurse coaching is an actual recognized board certification for nurses. So you do have to be a registered nurse, an rn, which I am. So I got my adn, which is my associate degree in nursing, and then I got my bsn. I'm currently in school for my dnp, which is a doctorate of nurse practitioner. So I have about three more years. I will make my husband call me doctor, of course. Jennifer [00:03:07]: Doctor. Great house. Ashlee [00:03:09]: Doctor. Kristin Greathouse [00:03:09]: Yes. I got into nurse coaching. I actually saw. It was a fluke. I saw it as an ad on social media somewhere and it piqued my interest and I looked into it, but it wasn't until well over a year later that I actually signed up for it. The certification is nurse coach, but that doesn't mean that I coach nurses. It just means that I am a nurse and I am also a certified life coach. I can coach anyone about anything. Kristin Greathouse [00:03:35]: The beauty is a lot of people will come to nurse coaches because we have that clinical background and experience in nursing. And so we do have a little bit of a step up on things when it comes to healthy things. Jennifer [00:03:49]: Right. Kristin Greathouse [00:03:49]: Working out, eating healthy. You know, not that I'm going to give someone a healthy eating plan because I'm not a nutritionist and I'm not going to give somebody a workout plan because I'm not a trainer. But I can help people to figure out the best things for them. Like I said, I found it on social media. I finally went through the program. I got the board certification. I kind of use it all the time, some very intentional times. And then other times it just kind of comes out when I'm talking to somebody and it's like, oh, well, tell me more about that. Ashlee [00:04:22]: Honestly, that's so incredible. And that was going through my brain too. I'm like, it's something that I feel like can be used in a lot of different aspects of your life, which I find incredibly powerful. And so I love how you were just like, yeah, it kind of just comes out because, I mean, how, how does it not? Right? Like, and I, I really, really love that. We do want to ask what it's like for you though, to also be married to a first responder and how it's kind of shaped like your life and your mindset on things. Kristin Greathouse [00:04:48]: Lord, how much time do you have. Ashlee [00:04:50]: She said we need 13 episodes. Kristin Greathouse [00:04:54]: Yes. Yes. Well, first of all, I will say I love my husband and I actually like him. We are best friends. So I have a little bit of different perspective. Like I said, I knew my husband growing up, so I knew him before he was a first responder. Although I think everyone always knew that he was going to become a police officer when he, you know, grew up and became an adult. But we were only ever friends back in high school and didn't start dating until he had been on the job for several years. Kristin Greathouse [00:05:22]: So even though I knew him, I didn't get to know him well until we started dating. And like I said, he had already been an officer for several years. At that point. I should say, to answer your question, I am extremely proud to be married to a police officer. He's been in law enforcement for 26 years. I think now he's been promoted several times. He's accomplished so many things in his career. I mean, I couldn't even list them all. Kristin Greathouse [00:05:48]: But I'm extremely proud to be married to an officer. But that said, I say we're best friends and we are, but it's taken a lot of time to get where we are. I really always say if there's an emergency, I want him to be there because he's very calm, he's very steady in chaotic situations. I love that about him because I am not always calm and steady in those situations. Early on in our relationship, I would say he was probably very hyper vigilant, as many officers are, you know, I always had to sit with his back against the wall in a restaurant, always carried his gun with him, whether he was on duty or not. He was always kind of overly concerned, I would say, about where the kids were, what they were doing, who they were with. His favorite saying was always, nothing good happens past midnight, so nobody needs to be out late, you know. And so a lot of times back then I had to be very mindful of what I said to him because often I never really knew what was going to set him off necessarily and really upset him. Kristin Greathouse [00:06:45]: I would say time his age, therapy, and I would say especially EMDR have really mellowed him tremendously. I don't really worry about setting him off anymore because he doesn't necessarily get as upset as he used to. We live on a farm, we're in the country, and it's really our sanctuary. And I think ever since we've had this place, it's just calming to turn into my driveway and drive up to my house and know that, you know, we're here and it's very peaceful out here. I think that's really shaped a lot about our marriage and, you know, our mindset and. And that kind of thing. I hope that I answered your question. Ashlee [00:07:20]: You did. Jennifer [00:07:20]: And, I mean, I think that we're seeing more and more research just about being in nature is such a positive thing, and how special that, you know, your house is surrounded by that, you know, and that you guys have that kind of peace. That's beautiful. And I appreciate you kind of sharing that. It's been a journey into what marriages are. You know, we work together and feeling that kind of shift in work, and I think that that's beautiful with the coaching and you thinking about life coach. And I do think that there's probably some research about nurses and police officers being together. Right. Like, that's a thing. Kristin Greathouse [00:07:56]: Which way? Yeah. Ashlee [00:07:58]: Can we just go to cue? All the reels that I watch of, like, nurses running and, like, the police officers going after them. I have to crack up every time, every day. Kristin Greathouse [00:08:11]: I love that. Yes. It's so true. And firefighters, to be honest, I know probably just as many nurses with firefighters as they are with glee. So. Jennifer [00:08:20]: Right. What do you feel like in terms of, like, first responder families and how something distinct like coaching is helpful? Kristin Greathouse [00:08:28]: I love to give the distinction that coaching is different from counseling or from therapy. Counseling and therapy really helps people to work on the past. The things that they've been through, the things that they maybe can't get past, or the things that are just, you know, upset about. You guys know, this is what you do every day with coaching. We're looking at the future. We are figuring out where a person is and where they want to go and how to fill the gap, how to get to that place, but do it on their terms, especially with first responder families. A lot of the coaching I've done with first responder families has been with spouses, and it's in more of a group setting. First everyone is just getting to know each other, and they're not really sure what to say. Kristin Greathouse [00:09:13]: And then, you know, by the end of it, we're all helping each other out. Like, oh, my gosh, my husband does that too, or, oh, my gosh, my kids went through that same thing. We just. There's so many similarities, and a lot of times in those group settings, I'm learning from them because they have all been through a lot of the similar situations, especially kind of the emotional roller coasters that you can go on with the first responders and the. The situations that they've been in and the things they've seen. And then, you know, how the families are, the support for them. But also they see them a lot of times at their worst. And so there's definitely a counseling and a therapy side of that that is absolutely necessary. Kristin Greathouse [00:09:53]: Coaching kind of comes in after you've dealt with those things in the past, and you're like, okay, well, now what? You know, where do we go? What do we do? How do we move forward? And so I love that part of it, because a lot of people get concerned. They'll go through these emotional things. A lot of them will go through emdr and they'll come out and they feel so much better. And then there is an eventual. Like you all say with emdr, you're going to start feeling the feelings that you hadn't been feeling. And a lot of times that gets to be very overwhelming. And so coaching can come in and say, okay, these are the things that we can work on to help you get through those feelings. And I love that coaching is future focused because it's very important to fix the things in the past, but it's also important to start looking to the future. Jennifer [00:10:40]: Absolutely. And I appreciate that distinction. And I think it's a great way, too, to think about people that want to set goals and things like that, especially if we have addressed some things in the past. With some of my clients, it gets to a place like, you're doing really great. Ashlee [00:10:56]: Well, what about this? Jennifer [00:10:57]: What about this? And they're all things in the future where I think really coaching would be a great place to kind of step in and say, hey, like, these are the plans and the things that we want to work towards. Ashlee [00:11:07]: Absolutely. I think what's really powerful about our podcast, we have so many people that listen. And so, like, the cool thing is, hopefully, I don't know how many people know about coaching. Right. Like, I. I really don't. And so this is why we were so excited to have you on, because we want our first responders and their families to realize there's a lot out there. Like, there are all these other resources. Ashlee [00:11:26]: And so if someone is listening and they're still trying to learn, what is this about? Could you give us a little rundown of what a typical, like, coaching session may look like with a client in a first responder family? Kristin Greathouse [00:11:36]: Absolutely. Coaching sessions are pretty much the same no matter who the client is. Now, that said, we can definitely tailor things to different people in different situations. A session would start out with a greeting like hey, I'm glad you're here. And. And one of the first things we do is we go through agreements. So we do agreements instead of expectations because expectations are one sided. And you know, especially as an adult myself, if someone looks at me and says, I expect you to, blah, blah blah, it's probably not going to be something I want to do. Kristin Greathouse [00:12:13]: But if we go over, you know, certain things and we just say, can we agree on these things? And the agreements are like, we're in a safe and a confidential space that the client is completely in control of the depth of conversation. I invite them to play full out or just to give it their all, even if all they have to give is 30% because they're exhausted from work or

Hosts: Dr. Ashlee Gethner, LCSW – Child of a Police Officer Jennifer Woosley Saylor, LPCC S – Child of a Police Officer In this heartfelt follow-up to their interview with Marian Crossgrove, Jennifer and Ashlee dive deep into the often-overlooked topic of substance abuse in the first responder community. With no guest this week, the hosts reflect on Marian’s story of resilience, recovery, and hope. They use her journey as a springboard for a candid discussion about why substance use is so common among first responders, how it impacts families, and what real recovery can look like. Key Discussion Points: Marian’s Inspiring Comeback: Marian’s story of losing her identity, seeking help, and returning to the first responder field offers hope to those who may feel isolated by substance abuse. Cultural Normalization of Alcohol: The hosts discuss how drinking is woven into the fabric of first responder culture as a means of celebration, coping, camaraderie, and the slippery slope it can create. Family Perspectives: Ashlee and Jennifer describe personal experiences growing up in families where drinking was normalized, and how family members can play a crucial role in identifying when substance use becomes a problem. Defining Addiction: Jennifer breaks down how addiction is identified, emphasizing the importance of looking at functioning and not just frequency or quantity of use. They highlight the clinical criteria and how family concern is a significant indicator. Genetics, Trauma, and Coping: The discussion covers how genetics, trauma exposure, and lack of healthy coping mechanisms can all intersect to increase the risk of substance abuse among first responders. Shame, Stigma & Department Culture: There’s an honest exploration of the double standard within some departmentswhere drinking is both encouraged and shamed, and how this adds complexity to getting help. Moving Toward Wellness: Both hosts stress the importance of departments understanding their resources, building peer support, and knowing treatment options because being prepared can save careers and lives. The Complexity of Recovery: Recovery from substance abuse isn’t easy, especially in a culture where drinking is prevalent. Jennifer and Ashlee share insights on the dedication required for recovery and the ongoing journey of maintaining wellness. Resources and Recommendations: The hosts encourage listeners to explore resources like Alcoholics Anonymous, peer support teams, and to approach the issue proactively within their departments. They remind families and departments to stay educated and ready to help. If this episode resonated with you or if you have stories to share about living with a first responder, reach out to Ashlee and Jennifer on their social media platforms! Thank you for tuning in! Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review "When The Call Hits Home" on your favorite podcast platforms!   Follow Us: - Facebook: When The Call Hits Home Podcast - Instagram: @whenthecallhitshome - Whenthecallhitshome.com --- This podcast does not contain medical / health advice. It is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment and should not be relied on as health or personal advice. The information contained in this podcast is for general information purposes only. The information is provided by Training Velocity LLC and while we endeavour to keep the information up to date and correct, we make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the Podcast or the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in the podcast for any purpose. Any reliance you place on such information is strictly at your own risk.  WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE NOR LIABLE FOR ANY ADVICE, COURSE OF TREATMENT, DIAGNOSIS OR ANY OTHER INFORMATION, SERVICES OR PRODUCTS THAT YOU OBTAIN THROUGH THIS PODCAST.  Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment and before undertaking a new health care regimen, and never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast.

Ashlee [00:00:00]: I do know a lot of first responders who struggle with substances and maybe they do get put in a situation where their job is on the line or they have lost their job and then they feel their identity is now completely gone. And I feel like her story of just like resilience and getting help, honestly. Right. Being so vulnerable to open up and get the help. She got all that back. And that's hope that I think sometimes someone just needs to hear. Jennifer [00:00:26]: Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Jennifer. Ashlee [00:00:29]: And I'm Ashlee. Jennifer [00:00:30]: And we're excited. It's just Ashlee and I today, no guest, but I think we were pretty intentional and it just being you and I today, we had such a great time getting to talk with Marian Crossgrove, who was on our last episode. So if you haven't heard that, please go listen this episode. Not like as much sense if you're not listening to Marian's episode. I Ashlee, you and I just talked about substance abuse, the power of Marianne's message, and I think kind of wanted to continue the conversation. Ashlee [00:01:02]: Yeah, absolutely. I think when we were planning all of this, we were like, we have to at some point talk about substance abuse and talk about why it's so prevalent within the first responder community, because substance abuse really does impact not only our first responders, but their families as well. And Marian's story is so powerful that she was the best person I think we could have had to start it off. And so it's important for both of us to circle back around and have the conversation. Jennifer [00:01:28]: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Marian does do phenomenal in sharing her story, which it belongs to her. And I just really want to respect that. I think one thing that when listening, you know, you and I know Marian so well, and we just hopped into our conversation to just fill people in who have not had, are not as lucky to have met her in person, that she has returned to the first responder world. So she stepped away from a bit and from what she shares, you know, was really pursued to say, like, hey, you're really good in this career. And I think one thing, we talk a lot with first responders. It's such a calling. And that Marian's struggle with substance abuse did not let her calling not be her calling anymore. Jennifer [00:02:13]: Like, that she got to step away and heal and got to come back and into the first responder world. So I think that's important for people to know a part of her story as well. Ashlee [00:02:22]: I do think that's important because when I look at so many people that we run into. I do know a lot of first responders who struggle with substances and maybe they do get put in a situation where their job is on the line or they have lost their job and then they feel their identity is now completely gone. And I feel like her story of just like resilience and getting help, honestly. Right. Being so vulnerable to open up and get the help. She got all that back. And that's hope that I think sometimes someone just needs to hear. It doesn't have to always be gone. Ashlee [00:02:54]: I mean, every story is different, but it's that hope of, like, I can get help, I can get better, and I can maybe, you know, regain everything that I've had. Jennifer [00:03:03]: I mean, hope is the most powerful thing that I think I offer anyone in, you know, clinically and in a therapeutic setting. But also just in general, like, hope is a powerful thing. A lot of talk in the substance abuse world is rock bottom things like that. And wherever you're at, you have to have a belief that things can get better, it can get better. And that's a hard thing to navigate. Ashlee [00:03:26]: Yeah. So why do you think I'll kind of throw this question at you? I know we have been talking about it a little bit, but why? I guess in your clinical world or just personal world. Right. Like, we grew up with this. I know for a fact that alcohol specifically is a dang tradition in our family. Like, you drink, right? Like you go to football games, you go to baseball games, you go to music festivals and you're drinking and you're kind of looked at weird if you're not. But that was the same for all my uncles who are in law enforcement across the board. Right. Ashlee [00:03:56]: It's a very welcomed thing in first responder communities. In your opinion, like, why do you think substance abuse can happen so naturally amongst a first responder? Jennifer [00:04:05]: I mean, I think that's a really good question. I do think it is a little bit in the fiber of the career in terms of this is something that we do to, you know, blow off steam or this is what you do. You know, I just think it's a real accepted coping mechanism. I think a big part of it, and I think that is its own conversation too, in terms of, you know, obviously I think we're specifically talking about alcohol, but we'll use the, like, big term of substance abuse. And there's other things outside of. Of alcohol that people use. I think that's important to differentiate some, but I think our focus today will be alcohol. So I'm going to put that in, you know, I think obviously the culture and I think what we've talked about and how our conversation started about just what first responders support they need, and the conversation around mental health and like, we're in 2025. Jennifer [00:05:02]: I think they've made mountains move in some of those conversations. And yet you're looking at a career and a profession that's been around for centuries. And I think in terms of that, people utilize what they have. And I think a big part of that was alcohol. Again, if you think about a culture and you think about first responding culture, you know, culture is this kind of underlying wave that we all kind of ride together. And I think that, you know, alcohol can be seen as being used as the celebration and. And how quickly something that can be utilized to blow off steam, to celebrate can really say, well, this is the only thing that helps sleep. This is the only way I can really, in my brain to respond to. Jennifer [00:05:53]: I think of it as this thing that turns into abuse. It's the frog that gets boiled in the water. You know, we don't notice necessarily the change in temperature until we're cooked. Ashlee [00:06:07]: Yeah. I think you explained that so beautifully. And I really, really loved how you kind of went to this notion of, well, alcohol is the only thing that helps me sleep, and alcohol is the only thing that kind of numbs anything else. And I do hear that often. I hear that often in my office, too. Like when people are coming to get help and they're realizing maybe I am drinking too much. It really is this notion of it turns into everything we're feeling like we're not getting by ourselves. I feel like that's so important to recognize. Ashlee [00:06:37]: Well, I just feel like it's so important to recognize because we often don't realize we're going down a slippery slope with it either. We can be like, oh, this is just helping me sleep. So I have one a night. Right. This is. The guys are doing it. I'm going out with the guys after work today, you know, and so it's normalized. And Marion talked about that. Ashlee [00:06:56]: Like, what do you like? I'm just catching up with the guys. I'm hanging out with them. They're doing it so I can do it and how quickly that can transform our life into a problem. Right. And we even recognize it until it's too far gone. Jennifer [00:07:08]: Absolutely. I think the place that the family plays in that is important. You know, Ashlee and I use this thing called the diagnostic manual. It's really thick and it's no fun to read. So I don't recommend it. Ashlee [00:07:20]: It is no fun to read. Jennifer [00:07:22]: I really appreciate what defines addiction in that manual, which is what, you know, we would utilize to diagnose somebody. And in that kind of a. Something I would do in my office with clients this times is to say, is somebody who has a drink every night. An alcoholic is somebody who uses alcohol just on the weekends but gets blackout. Is that an alcoholic is somebody who has their spouse say they have a problem. Is that an alcoholic? And it's really interesting what defines addiction. And really, it is about functioning. Ashlee [00:08:05]: Yeah. Jennifer [00:08:06]: Can you meet the things that you need to meet in a day? And there's people that can drink and do that. That's one way to look at it. The other thing is, is not just one. So people can be able to meet all their functioning tasks, but then they get a dui. So, yeah, little intervention that happens, you know, that can say there's a problem. The reason I bring up the family here and where it plays in this diagnostic manual is somebody that you have a personal relationship with says that you have a problem with alcohol or a substance. It leads to that. And so it can't just. Jennifer [00:08:43]: It's not just one of those. Right. Because we could have somebody in our life that's a teetotaler and, you know, they think somebody has got a problem if they have one beer at a birthday party, you know, once a year. Right. Like, people have perspectives on that. People get DUIs, just not being lucky, you know, that one time that they weren't thinking like. So that's not just that. It's not just I got so drunk that I've missed work and got fired, you know, so it has to be more than one of these areas in our lives that really kind of mark off. Jennifer [00:09:18]: And I think that family is an important thing to look at sometimes when. When somebody's struggling with addiction. And I think, again, you know, referencing back to Marian in terms of what she said, she met all those, like, she was able to make appointments and take her kids to things, and she was able to do those things. I think that's a good example of what you're saying in terms of, like, man, this can be something that can really be going on for a while, not recognize it. And yet our family does kind of have a different look at things, don't they? Ashlee [00:09:50]: Yeah. And I think it's important for us, especially on here, when we're talking about what it's like to be children of first responders, to talk about that personal piece. I think we did such a Great job. When we talked about the financial aspect and how it kind of impacted both the bus and. And we kind of really honed in on that. I remember being very young and it being so normalized, you know, like, hey, Ash, go get a beer. Go get us a beer. You know, you're little, you think it's fun. Ashlee [00:10:13]: You run and you go grab that beer. Right? You think it's so funny. And. And it is, right? There's. It's so hard for me because there's great memories with my uncles and my family, my dad, you know, with alcohol, but then there's also some extremely negative, scary memories with alcohol. And. And I think growing up with it, like, me personally, now I'm not. I feel like an outcast in my family a lot of the times, and I feel like I get made fun of a lot of the times because I'm not one to. Ashlee [00:10:39]: I don't. I could have nothing and have the best time. Right? And like, literally, when I say, like, my family can look at you sideways like, what, girl? You're at a Bears game and you're. You're not pounding them, like, what's wrong with you? Right. But it's. It's just like, I think my anxiety has really developed in knowing that, like, yeah, alcohol, while there's fun sides to it, too. I've seen how it can also turn somebody angry, and I've seen how it can also turn something just really bad. And I've heard stories and I. Ashlee [00:11:07]: You know what I mean? And yet it was so normalized for me, like, going up, my dad going out to the bar after work to hang out with his friends. And it's never, no offense, like, they were never just like, one beer drinkers. Jennifer [00:11:19]: Right, Right. Ashlee [00:11:20]: And I guess I could never understand that concept as I got old enough to realize, like, what alcohol was. Like, I've always kind of had this mindset of, like, why do you have to have that to have fun? Jennifer [00:11:29]: Right, Right. Well, and I definitely had that childhood, too, of like, go get me a beer. And we had a refrigerator that I knew exactly where the beer was. Like, that definitely has been my experience too. And I think, again, it's that whole thing of culture. Like, I mean, it wasn't dad drinking at home by himself. Like, it was. We're out with other police families. Jennifer [00:11:56]: Yeah, other, you know, not always police, but, you know, other families. And drinking was definitely a big part of it. And I mean, I enjoy drinking to this day and. But it's also that thing of, like, I can take or leave. Ashlee [00:12:11]: Yes. Jennifer [00:12:11]: Sadly for some people, that's just not their experience. Yeah. And there can be lots that causes that, you know, there can be how substances can be used as a coping mechanism. And some of that can be a genetic thing. I have experience working with people with drug and alcohol problems. And you know, it's sometimes just like this DNA stuff, right. Like for real. I always joke, I'm like, I am as pale as can be and if I go out with no sunblock on, I'm gonna get sunburned. Jennifer [00:12:46]: Like that's just the way I was made. And unfortunately, sometimes that happens with people when it comes to substances. Some people can have a drink and be fine and somebody's DNA says I can't just have one and I'll have to keep going. Again, that's just the luck of the draw sometimes, which is hard to like. You have to have the insight and knowledge to know that for sure. Ashlee [00:13:08]: I like that you just said that. Because I think something that keeps bringing coming up for me in clinical world is my first responders that struggle with substance abuse, the amount of trauma that they have had in their lives. I'm always like, oh my gosh. And then we mix in genetics and we mix i

Hosts: Dr. Ashlee Gethner, LCSW – Child of a Police Officer Jennifer Woosley Saylor, LPCC S – Child of a Police Officer Guest: Marian Cosgrove - Army Veteran and Law Enforcement Officer Episode Overview: In this deeply honest and powerful episode, hosts Jennifer and Ashlee sit down with Marian Cosgrove, an Army veteran, long-serving law enforcement officer, and survivor, to talk about substance abuse among first responders. Marian shares her personal journey from childhood trauma, through years of high-functioning alcoholism, to eventual recovery. She discusses the cultural normalization of substance use in law enforcement, the challenges of recognizing when coping has become addiction, and the importance of self-reflection and support. Marian opens up about the root causes of her substance abuse, the process of self-honesty, hitting rock bottom, and the life-changing role of therapy and 12-step programs in her recovery. The conversation also touches on the impact of unresolved pain from childhood, why coping mechanisms develop, and how compartmentalization can be both protective and harmful. Key Topics Covered The Hidden Prevalence of Substance Use:  Why substance abuse is so common among first responders and how drinking becomes normalized as a way to cope with trauma and emotional suppression. Marian’s Story: From a significant childhood trauma (including her struggle to be heard and believed), to coping with discomfort through alcohol use, Marian details how her journey diverged into high-achievement while battling feelings of being an outsider and never quite fitting in. Where is the Line?: We explore the blurry line between social drinking and alcoholism, and how it’s not always clear. Especially for high-functioning individuals. Self-reflection and honesty are critical. Compartmentalization and Childhood Impact: The conversation emphasizes how early experiences and learned coping tactics can shape adult behaviors, especially in high-stress careers. Functional Alcoholism & Progression: Marian describes how her drinking escalated slowly over decades, how she rationalized her habits, and how the "incremental elevator" of standards slides over time. Reaching Out and Support: After her life spiraled, Marian sought help through a treatment program and AA, acknowledging the difficulty and necessity of vulnerability and community among those with lived experience. Changing Coping Mechanisms: Using the concept of “neuro-bypasses” (habitual pathways in the brain), Marian explains how long-term coping with substances becomes deeply ingrained, and how therapy and group support helped her forge new habits. Impact on Family & Children: The group discusses how first responder stress and substance use can affect families, particularly children who may internalize emotional disconnection at home. Advice for Listeners: Marian encourages anyone struggling with substance abuse to reach out, listen to others’ stories, seek both peer and professional support, and understand that recovery is possible.   If this episode resonated with you or if you have stories to share about living with a first responder, reach out to Ashlee and Jennifer on their social media platforms!   Thank you for tuning in! Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review "When The Call Hits Home" on your favorite podcast platforms!   Follow Us: - Facebook: When The Call Hits Home Podcast - Instagram: @whenthecallhitshome - Whenthecallhitshome.com --- This podcast does not contain medical / health advice. It is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment and should not be relied on as health or personal advice. The information contained in this podcast is for general information purposes only. The information is provided by Training Velocity LLC and while we endeavour to keep the information up to date and correct, we make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the Podcast or the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in the podcast for any purpose. Any reliance you place on such information is strictly at your own risk.  WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE NOR LIABLE FOR ANY ADVICE, COURSE OF TREATMENT, DIAGNOSIS OR ANY OTHER INFORMATION, SERVICES OR PRODUCTS THAT YOU OBTAIN THROUGH THIS PODCAST.  Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment and before undertaking a new health care regimen, and never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast.

Jennifer [00:00:00]: Hi, welcome back to the podcast. I'm Jennifer. Ashlee [00:00:03]: And I'm Ashlee. Jennifer [00:00:04]: And I get to introduce our guest today. And as always, we have a special guest. And I was reflecting. I'm like, I actually think I've known this guest since I've been born and I'm not related to them. So it's the first time for that. But we have Dr. Charles Baker with us today and I'm just going to give it to you, Dr. Baker, to tell us a little bit about yourself. Dr. Charles Baker [00:00:23]: First of all, thanks for having me and hope I can add something to your podcast here from my background and experiences. Well, I'm originally from Louisville, Kentucky. Grew up here, went to high school here and began college here. I went to Western Kentucky University for a year right out of high school. And that's a little bit relevant to My first real job was on the Louisville Police Department. Today it's the Louisville Metro Police Department. Back in the day, it was the city of Louisville. It's I began my work there in January 8th of 1973. Jennifer [00:00:57]: Okay. Dr. Charles Baker [00:00:58]: After having one year of college at Western Kentucky, I went to Western out of high school with the goal of being a high school teacher and a coach. But a good friend of my father's was a Louisville police officer and they were in a hiring spree at that time and he encouraged me. So I went down, took the test, and before I knew it, I was in recruit school in January at 70. And that was not my plan. But once I got there, I really super enjoyed it and began my career there. We can get into that later and a lot of it's relevant to what I do today, but I had a lot of assignments during my time there, enjoyed every bit of it. So anyway, I got sidetracked for several years with the Louisville Police Department. And like I said, I had one year of college there while I was on the department. Dr. Charles Baker [00:01:47]: The training officers that I had at that time encouraged me to continue to go to college. And we had a federal grant, the leap money that came out of the late 60s, federal grant to pay for college. So I enrolled at the University of Louisville part time while I was working. And it was those original trainers that I had that encouraged me to do that. And I'm always grateful for the department for allowing me to do that and actually paying for it. It was a challenge to go full time to work full time and go to get your degree. But I ended up with my master's degree because of the police. But I did 20 years there, worked in a variety of assignments But I retired when I had my 20 years in and it was, I didn't leave because I disliked the job. Dr. Charles Baker [00:02:32]: I really enjoyed it. But I was young enough to do something else in life and allowed me to go back and do what I originally wanted to do, be a high school. During that career time, I also went back to school to get my high school teaching certification. So when I retired from the police department, I could teach social studies in high school, Kentucky certification. And I got a job teaching at, actually the high school that I attended, Iroquois High School. I taught for a couple of two years there, and then I went to a law enforcement magnet at another school and I was in my third year teaching and my wife worked for an airline and she got transferred to Phoenix, Arizona. So, so at that time I was very emotional about this, but I had to quit my job and go out there. And so I only did three years of what I really wanted to do originally right out of high school. Dr. Charles Baker [00:03:24]: But I had a good time doing that, went to Arizona, and my first job out there was director of security for the Mesa, Arizona Public. So I became chief of security for them. That was my job when I, when we left to move out there and did that for seven years, my boss, an assistant superintendent, and he hooked me up with a professor at Arizona State University who talked me into earning my doctorate at Arizona State. So moved to Arizona. Instead of watching TV at night, I'd go to college and finished my doctorate and my dissertation tied in law enforcement as well as education. And back then, this was Columbine High school day. So my dissertation was about the attitudes of school principal in reporting crime from school. Ashlee [00:04:13]: Oh, wow. Dr. Charles Baker [00:04:13]: Is that relevant at that time? 20 some years later, it might be worthy of a follow up with that to see if it's changed. But anyway, finished my doctorate, I had the opportunity to become a professor at Scottsdale Community College. And so I finished my time. I did about seven years at Mesa Schools and 12 years teaching college, got to retire and we moved back home. And since then I've been here teaching as an adjunct at the university. So that's the Cliff Notes version. Ashlee [00:04:45]: That is incredible. And now I want to go read your dissertation. Dr. Charles Baker [00:04:50]: Well, it might be boring, so. Ashlee [00:04:52]: No, no, not at all. I feel all of that. So I'm excited to have you on here to talk about that. I'm like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. Jennifer [00:05:01]: Well, and I don't know that I knew that your story was so full circle in terms of going to a teacher's college at Western University. And that always being a bit of your calling. And so it makes sense that you kind of merge these two worlds together. And do you find that your experience on the police department influences how you profess or your teaching of the criminal justice? Dr. Charles Baker [00:05:28]: You know, when I started teaching criminal justice at the community college level, a lot of entry level courses, survey courses of the criminal justice system, not just policing and those, but looking at policing, the courts and corrections, you know, the three stool, three legs on the stool generally of policing. So I try to incorporate all those in, but basically with the police being the catalyst for all of those without police investigating crimes, making arrests, we don't go to the court system, we don't go to the correctional system. And so I try to incorporate all of those in there. And. But it's been helpful, especially again, these survey courses that introduce you to constitutional law and those kind of things, I try to gear it toward how that impacts the people that work in the freedom of speech to protest and those kind of things. And what police officers need to know about balancing a community's right to express their views publicly, but yet not cross the line and interrupt with civil order, civil disobedience, how to balance those kind of things out. You know, the search and seizure, the right to remain silent, all those things, how the police officer on the street has to understand those and know the limits of their authority and those kind of things. So I've been trying to incorporate the, the practicality of that with sort of the words, textbook words, the academic words. Dr. Charles Baker [00:06:55]: And I think students have generally appreciated that. Ashlee [00:06:59]: So, yeah, and that was kind of our next question or one that I had was how, how your students kind of respond. Do you give your own real world examples of what it was like for you when you were an officer? And how do they respond to that? Dr. Charles Baker [00:07:13]: Well, upfront, I tell them a lot of times and this gets a little bit, I don't know how to say it, maybe touchy right now because I've always tried to play devil's advent and come up with scenarios during the classroom of practical situations that may occur on the street. And I would tell them up front, these are not always my views. I'm just playing devil's advocate to encourage discussion, to encourage you to come forward and share your thoughts. And so I might say something that's not what I truly believe, but just to foster some discussion in the classroom. And I would bring up scenarios and I would tell them they're not all mine. They might be some of my colleagues that have been involved again in this day and time, I think we have to be cautious about that because I could come up with a devil's advocate sort of scenario and someone think that's the way I truly feel, especially when it comes to race relations. When we talk about George Floyd, we talk about Breonna Taylor and all those kind of cases, it can become emotional and you just have to be cautious about how you phrase things so that they don't think that that's the way you truly mean. But we have to, I really believe this in academia, we gotta. Dr. Charles Baker [00:08:25]: We gotta discuss the truthful things that go on in our society, even if they're unpleasant or maybe hurtful. Jennifer [00:08:32]: Yeah, I think that that's a really good point in trying to walk that line of giving real life experiences and not having it. How to be viewed as your own perspective, from your perspective, what do you feel like are some, maybe misconceptions or things that get brought up in, you know, in the classroom that are misconceptions around criminal justice? Dr. Charles Baker [00:08:57]: Well, I think one of that strikes me and it's, it's interesting. Having done this for a long time, I do things. I do some online classes too, so I have a lot of what I call critical thinking questions. There's no right or wrong answers, but their responses are, you know, if we were in the classroom, it would be class participation. Raise your hand and speak up. Online. It's writing, writing your responses. I found out that they will post online more, I don't know, truthfulness or their feelings more than they will verbally in a classroom with other people where someone could look at them. Dr. Charles Baker [00:09:35]: I'm finding that out. I can see how attitudes have changed among students in a lot of areas over the course of the years. One example of that is I would ask them that if someone died of a drug overdose and the person that sold them those drugs illegally that killed them, do they have some level of responsibility? The person that sold them years ago, it would be, no, no, no, no, no. The person that bought the drugs and took the drugs, it's their responsibility. I've seen that evolve over the years where now they're willing to hold the person that sold them the illegal drugs more culpable. And I'm not saying them all. I'm just saying statistically, I'm seeing more that agree with that than did several years ago. But I think misconceptions, obviously one it's been for a long time, is police drive fast and they shoot guns and they do this, you know, the TV type stuff. Dr. Charles Baker [00:10:30]: And I would tell Many, many of your hours a day are boring, driving around, patrolling and writing reports. And I, this is one thing that I have emphasized particularly when I worked at community college out in Arizona because we worked closely with the local police departments around there and they would tell us that the shortcomings they're seeing their recruits are the ability to write, the ability to document what they did. What they did may have been correct, what they did investigation, but it becomes lacking because they don't know how to articulate it in writing. So when you emphasize writing, that's not the fun stuff. Okay. But I tell them how, how critical and important that is. So that's, you know, the fallacies of that and the perception because of media, I believe with high profile cases of George Floyd and horrible, horrible cases of things, they see bad things that police do sometimes and then they, they sort of lump it all into one pile. They, they stereotype a lot for that. Dr. Charles Baker [00:11:35]: And I have to emphasize to them that the vast majority of police officers just want to go out and do a good job and want to go home to their families at the end of the day and they're not out to racially profile or are there exceptions to that like any other? So those, some of them that I've Misconception. Ashlee [00:11:52]: Yeah. And I love to hear this. I also think like, we actually have a lot of listeners who aren't even in the first responder world, which is really cool. And I think for those listeners too, this is such a great opportunity to learn that, that these things are being talked about because I think it's easy for a lot of people who are not in the first responder world to feel like it isn't considered. These things aren't talked about. We turn our heads to it. Right. Like that's what I hear a lot. Ashlee [00:12:18]: And I know that that's not true from working in it so much, but to hear it from you and to hear how well first off you articulate it, amazing. And, and so to hear that and to learn from you, I think is going to be really helpful to our listeners because you're right, we have to talk about. Dr. Charles Baker [00:12:32]: You can't just bury your head in the sand and they won't go and they'll all go away. So I think that's important for at the college level or other levels too, even at the high school level sometimes. I did a couple of law enforcement or, excuse me, criminal justice type classes in high school and I thought they were valuable, particularly young people at that time to be aware of what the Reality of policing was that they face, you know, when they see a police officer on the street, they see it hopefully totally different. Disgusted. Ashlee [00:13:02]: Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and how do you, I know you kind of hit on this a little bit, but maybe you can dive in a little bit more of like, how do you balance your own knowledge with the academic part? Like, especially if it kind of goes against what you have thought, you know, within your career and how things have evolved so much like, I guess, your, your personal self. How do you manage that when we're. Dr. Charles Baker [00:13:24]: That'S a good, that's a really good question. A couple of years ago here at the university, they have the Southern Police Institute, Jennifer, probably, and they had a, an opportunity for me to go teach that class. And I went through that program in 1982. So that shows you how old and so I welcome the opportunity to go teach. And that had law enforcement comman

Hosts: Dr. Ashlee Gethner, LCSW – Child of a Police Officer Jennifer Woosley Saylor, LPCC S – Child of a Police Officer Guest: Dr. Charles Baker - Retired Police Officer Episode Overview: In this enlightening episode, Jennifer and Ashlee sit down with Dr. Charles Baker, whose career path has come full circle: from Louisville Police Department officer, to high school teacher, to director of security, to criminal justice professor. Dr. Baker shares thoughtful reflections on how his diverse experiences have shaped his understanding of policing, teaching, and the intersection of criminal justice and mental health. Key Topics Covered Teaching Criminal Justice: Blends real-world police experience with academic theory, focuses on practical examples, and encourages critical discussion on current issues. Misconceptions & Media: Breaks down myths from TV about policing, emphasizes the everyday realities of law enforcement, and highlights the crucial role of accurate report writing. Mental Health & Family Impact: Discusses the growing openness about officer mental health, unique stressors of the job, and the effects on family life. Key Skills for Officers: Stresses the importance of communication, understanding community perspectives, and balancing professionalism with compassion.   If this episode resonated with you or if you have stories to share about living with a first responder, reach out to Ashlee and Jennifer on their social media platforms!   Thank you for tuning in! Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review "When The Call Hits Home" on your favorite podcast platforms!   Follow Us: - Facebook: When The Call Hits Home Podcast - Instagram: @whenthecallhitshome - Whenthecallhitshome.com --- This podcast does not contain medical / health advice. It is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment and should not be relied on as health or personal advice. The information contained in this podcast is for general information purposes only. The information is provided by Training Velocity LLC and while we endeavour to keep the information up to date and correct, we make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the Podcast or the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in the podcast for any purpose. Any reliance you place on such information is strictly at your own risk.  WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE NOR LIABLE FOR ANY ADVICE, COURSE OF TREATMENT, DIAGNOSIS OR ANY OTHER INFORMATION, SERVICES OR PRODUCTS THAT YOU OBTAIN THROUGH THIS PODCAST.  Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment and before undertaking a new health care regimen, and never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast.

Ashlee [00:00:00]: I think that there's the pros and cons. I think that there's a family system and family dynamic that happens with first responders. That instilling resiliency, which we've talked greatly about within your kids. Right. Like, is what continues to even in the midst of sometimes chaos. Because every family has the right to chaos. Jennifer [00:00:18]: Right. Ashlee [00:00:18]: Instilling that resiliency and instilling that if we're a good first responder. Right. We know that we're instilling these proper values of respect and integrity and all these things. And I think that's where that system comes into play, because everybody in that household pretty much upholds that. Right. And so then you go into this world when you are a child and you. That's all you know. I still think that there are moments where I look at other people who didn't grow up in a first responder family, and I literally, like, my brain can't comprehend how their brain. Jennifer [00:00:54]: Right. Ashlee [00:00:55]: Doesn't think the way that I do. Like, doesn't see it in. In different, like, the ways that I do. But I have to remember that that emotional intell. Isn't there at that extent of. Because they didn't have to have that because it was instilled in us at a young age to think differently, to think more critically, to be aware of our surroundings. Jennifer [00:01:14]: Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Jennifer. Ashlee [00:01:16]: And I'm Ashlee. Jennifer [00:01:18]: And here we are. And it's just us today. We don't get to say special guest. Yeah. Ashlee [00:01:23]: Which again, if people are following along and have this game, I don't know, who am I to say, like, sorry, you're missing out. Although you said it, you said it. Jennifer [00:01:33]: So maybe it counts. Ashlee [00:01:34]: But they're really. I feel like we've hit it really big with some of these guests lately, and I'm just so thankful. Jennifer [00:01:41]: Great. I mean, I hope that we always come across with such gratitude for our guests that give their most valuable thing right that we have is time, and they are willing to share and give it to us. And I know our last episode was one that we were really excited about having. Specifically, I want to talk more about, like, the finances of things and how that could be impactful for families or first responders. Ashlee [00:02:06]: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, too, it's just been such a big theme. So clinically speaking, it's a big theme for me. I don't know if you feel the same way, Jennifer. And then just again, when we're talking about being a child of a first responder, and I Don't know, all encompassing. For real. Right. Jennifer [00:02:21]: His episode for me was, yeah. I mean, I think that finances do show up when people have stress and high stress things and situations. And finances can absolutely be a part of that. And so I think we always feel better when we have a plan, even if it is we don't have a scent. At least we can have a plan to maybe get two nickels that can make us feel a little less stressed. So I appreciate that. Ashlee [00:02:44]: And what I love about us, right, Is being able to talk about these things and then we do this back end work of, like, how can we find somebody to connect it? Jennifer [00:02:51]: Right. Ashlee [00:02:52]: You know, and I hope that, that, that our listeners are like, yes, we need more connections, tools, resources, because I know that's big for us. We don't want people to feel like we're just on here talking. We want to actually provide some help, helpful things. Jennifer [00:03:03]: I totally agree with that. And that's a great point as well. As I'm not the finance expert, we should not take financial advice. I'm not that financial counselor. Ashlee [00:03:13]: Not from me either. Not from there. Jennifer [00:03:15]: I love that. I did see a meme that said, I'm the number one bread loser in my family and I've never related to something. Ashlee [00:03:24]: Oh, my gosh, that's so funny. That is so funny. I mean, I feel that way every time I pay for my bear season tickets, that's for sure. I'm like, oh, when is my husband gonna be done with this? Oops. Jennifer [00:03:39]: You know, it is almost there. Like, it's fair season girl Sunday. Ashlee [00:03:45]: This. Well, when this airs, it'll already pass, but we will have one game under our belt. Preseason. Jennifer [00:03:51]: Yes. Yes, yes. I'm so excited for you that it's finally the most magical time of year for you football. Ashlee [00:03:57]: So I have to put this out there because it was so funny. I looked at my husband and I said, oh, my gosh, I feel like I'm coming back to life when football starts again and fall. And it just, it makes my heart so happy. Like, I'm coming back to life. And he stops in the car and he looks at me and he goes, can I just share how weird that sounds when literally everything's dying? And I said, oh, my gosh, like, what? Why you got to come at me like this? Like what? Like. And then I thought to myself, I was a little proud that he came at me like that because that's something my dad would do. That's something he learned specifically from Craig Neef. And so I always will look at him sometimes when he finally has this edge because he's not from a first responder's family, right? So our tough joking, like our, like, hard love was very new to him, right? And so, like, sometimes when he does those things and, you know, I'll respond a little attitude or something to give it back, but in my head, I'm like, oh, look who's learning. Jennifer [00:04:56]: That's how you have to survive. That's how you have to survive. Ashlee [00:05:00]: Or I'll flat out look at him and be like, okay, Craig, Nef. Like, that was. That was a him thing. Jennifer [00:05:05]: Like, yeah, yeah. Ashlee [00:05:07]: So that's. So I had to share that because it was just so funny. But I think talking back to the finances and the people we've had on here, you know, and wanting in so many ways for us to help. Right. Help our listeners, help the people that we do serve. I guess I wanted to ask you a little bit, Jennifer, because we haven't talked much about this, and it kind of feeds into how we got to. Where we got is, like, what was your path? What made you kind of pick this one? Your career in general. But then obviously a little. Ashlee [00:05:35]: We know why you went into first responder world, but how does that evolve for you? Jennifer [00:05:39]: That's a great question, and it's interesting. I wanted to ask you this question first, but I guess I'll go first. Oh, oh, oh, you're good. Ashlee [00:05:47]: You're good. Jennifer [00:05:48]: I'm just like, the wheels are. And it was so long ago since I got out of college, which is crazy. It's funny how those things work out, though. I went to school and I was like, I'm gonna be a dentist. Talk about just like, pulling something out of a bag. Like, I don't know why. Ashlee [00:06:06]: Thought you were gonna say pulling teeth. But, you know, just an opportunity there, didn't I? Jennifer [00:06:11]: So I remember taking some science courses and like, yeah, this ain't for me. And, you know, I had, like, prerequisites that you had to have, and I took a sociology class and I enjoyed it. I really liked the sociology professor that I had. He was great and enjoyed the class. Then I don't know how, but I ended up in, like, a Psych 101 class. Shout out to Dr. Osborne. And I sat in that class and it was really like, this is going to sound so hokey and, like, weird, but it was really like one of those, like, real life, like, light bulb moments of like, oh, no, this is it. Jennifer [00:06:55]: And just felt like this is. And what it stood for. Me, I enjoy Helping people like that is something I care about. And sociology overwhelmed me. Like, I can't save the world, but I could save. Well, I couldn't say, but, you know, you can save, sit with one person and, like, see the change as, like, an individual. And so I think that's what really appealed to me. And then, you know, that was like, my freshman year as my second semester, my freshman year of college, and then I still had to go. Jennifer [00:07:27]: Like, I remember I changed education, and I was like, I really like art, and, like, I took some art classes, like, basically denying what had happened in terms of that. And I was like, no, it's really psychology and stuff. And so I graduated with that and found out really quickly with a psych degree, I could be like a barista or work at a bank or, you know, there's just not too much you can do without, like, a furthering your degree. And I had an opportunity and worked at a home for girls. I don't think you call it that anymore. And. And it was helpful and really eye opening. And you're kind of seeing outside of the margin, children who have been in really horrific situations. Jennifer [00:08:10]: And that really kind of led for me to pursue a master's degree to find, like, a deeper way and, like, helping those kids. And so that's kind of where it started for me. And so I do want us to have, like, the sociology psychology debate on this podcast as well. So walk me through, my wonderful social worker, what your path was in terms of becoming a mental health professional, especially your doctor degree. Ashlee [00:08:37]: Oof. Yeah. So I say, oof. Is that a bad reaction? I'm like, ooh. So I honestly, like, funny enough, like, right when you said that, because we've never really talked about this, like, the same thing sort of happened for me. I remember sitting in my sociology class, and I liked it, but I was like, oh, like, this is a lot looking at things as a whole, like that. Looking how about how groups interacted and things like that. I was like, I like it, but this isn't like, a love. Ashlee [00:09:04]: And honestly, my story is a little deep in that. You know, my parents were. I was older when my parents started to get divorced. Like, I was a teen, and it. It wasn't. I've shared on here before, like, a very pretty thing. It wasn't a very good time in everyone's lives when that happened. But then my stepmom came into play, and she's a social worker, and I started taking psychology courses at niu. Ashlee [00:09:30]: And again, I can't remember. You're real good with names. I can't remember my one professor's name. Oh, this just came way full circle for everybody on this podcast. But it was one of my very first psych classes. And he brought up Brandon Marshall, who at the time was playing on the Bears. And the minute anybody makes a connection like that, I'm sold. You don't need. Ashlee [00:09:52]: Yeah, you don't really need. Jennifer [00:09:54]: I love that you don't remember the professor's name, but remember the football players. Ashlee [00:09:58]: 100. That's how I live my life. It's really bad. It's really bad. And anytime someone starts to talk to me, football language or something, like, I'm. Jennifer [00:10:07]: Like, oh, like, I get it, it's bad. Ashlee [00:10:10]: But he actually started talking about him and then just fed into, like, talking about, like, the DSM and all these different things. Right. And just equating it back to people. And I remember being like, this is so cool. And like, talking about how. How even professional athletes can struggle or, like, how this works in terms of the brain and what the brain can go through. And I just. I felt so fascinated by that that I was like, okay, I think I'm in the right spot. Ashlee [00:10:39]: I really wanted to go for marine biology. I'm going to be honest and learned quickly that math isn't my things. But still, it honestly, for me, like, I. That caught my attention. I kept going. But as I was going through that, there was just so much happening at home as well. And thankfully at that time, I was a little bit older. But one thing that never kind of wavered in my life was my stepmom and her ability to stay so neutral in chaos, I guess is the best way to put it. Ashlee [00:11:06]: Yeah, like, 1,000%, like, was never negative, never said anything negative, never inserted herself in a way that, you know, like, just the most patience and grace I've ever met in a human. And I remember being like, thank God, like, we have this sounding board when. When everything else isn't so well. And I think that just inspired me to go further with social work. Jennifer [00:11:31]: It was really kind of her in so many ways. That's beautiful. Ashlee [00:11:35]: Yeah, it really is. You know, it's a little tough to talk about out loud, but it is. I mean, I would tell her that, but it is true. Like, it's. It was a very, you know, hard time in our lives. And with my parents, like, it just wasn't good. And so to have like a. An adult there that was sound of mind that understood that, like, you're impacting a system here. Ashlee [00:11:55]: A Family, I don't know, it just really meant a lot to me in that time, a crucial time in my life. And so I went on to social work because of that. I definitely looked into. She does school social work. So I definitely thought at first, like maybe following in those steps and doing things and then actually decided at first to do gerontology. I love that population. But then it was, and I know I've shared this before, it was that realization when life happened in the world and the civil unrest started to unfold and it was my first time being kind of like smacked in the face with reality. I'm going to be honest, of life and my, you know, my dad's job and feeling so anxious and nervous for him that I started to find this like, such a big passion of like, well, how do I help and how do I make change with first responders? And then from there it just kept going. Ashlee [00:12:43]: My doctorate's degree. Well, every. Well, actually maybe not everybody know

Hosts: Dr. Ashlee Gethner, LCSW – Child of a Police Officer Jennifer Woosley Saylor, LPCC S – Child of a Police Officer Episode Overview: In this candid episode, Ashlee and Jennifer turn the mics on themselves to dive into their personal journeys, career paths, and how being raised in first responder families shapes not only your worldview but your entire emotional toolkit. The duo explores themes of resilience, family systems, vulnerability, and the ongoing impact of childhood experiences into adult life. Key Topics Covered The First Responder Family System: Jennifer and Ashlee reflect on the unique resilience, values, and awareness that come from growing up in a first responder household. They discuss how these environments often foster critical thinking, acute emotional intelligence, but also present real challenges especially around chaos, structure, and sometimes rigid expectations. Career Paths: Ashlee and Jennifer share their motivating moments that led them to helping professions (social work, mental health), including behind-the-scenes stories about family, pivotal college classes, and the “aha” moments that cemented their purpose. Candid talk about how family experiences (including tough love and the need to “prove ourselves”) shape career choices and attitudes. Family Dynamics & Resiliency: A reflection on the double-edged sword of first responder family dynamics. The strong values and community, alongside the strictness and sometimes unintentionally harsh communication styles that get carried from the field into the home. Insights into how these family systems continue to evolve as children grow into adults and re-negotiate relationships with their parents. Vulnerability & Forgiveness: The importance of parents, especially first responders, showing vulnerability and apologizing when things go wrong. How open, honest dialogue between parent and child can build long-term resilience and deep family bonds, even (or especially) after conflict. Parenting Reflections: Both hosts admit the learning curve of parenting, and the hope to do things differently while acknowledging that every generation makes mistakes. The value of simply saying “I’m sorry” as a parent.   If this episode resonated with you or if you have stories to share about living with a first responder, reach out to Ashlee and Jennifer on their social media platforms!   Thank you for tuning in! Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review "When The Call Hits Home" on your favorite podcast platforms!   Follow Us: - Facebook: When The Call Hits Home Podcast - Instagram: @whenthecallhitshome - Whenthecallhitshome.com --- This podcast does not contain medical / health advice. It is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment and should not be relied on as health or personal advice. The information contained in this podcast is for general information purposes only. The information is provided by Training Velocity LLC and while we endeavour to keep the information up to date and correct, we make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the Podcast or the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in the podcast for any purpose. Any reliance you place on such information is strictly at your own risk.  WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE NOR LIABLE FOR ANY ADVICE, COURSE OF TREATMENT, DIAGNOSIS OR ANY OTHER INFORMATION, SERVICES OR PRODUCTS THAT YOU OBTAIN THROUGH THIS PODCAST.  Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment and before undertaking a new health care regimen, and never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast.

Gary Jarboe [00:00:00]: That's why I keep coming back. This is my 10th time to come back as a P. Well, and I. Jennifer [00:00:04]: Think that, Gary, I hope you hear this. In all sincerity, that's why we wanted to ask you these questions for the podcast, because I think it's like, it's such a gift that you give here. And I'm like, I know other people want to hear that in terms of your experience and sharing it. Ashlee [00:00:20]: I also think it helps end the stigma, too. Like, I think this is exactly what we need is for people in your position to be like, open up. It is okay to go get that help. There is not a time limit on this either. Right. Like, you are. You are being open and honest. And we're so grateful that you're on here saying, like, I am an older gentleman, and yet I'm making progress still in my life because I've decided to go open up to someone about what I've been through and what I've seen. Jennifer [00:00:51]: Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Jennifer. Ashlee [00:00:53]: And I'm Ashlee. And you know what, Jennifer, you get to say what we have, who we have today. Jennifer [00:00:58]: Well, as always, we have a very special guest with us today, and I'm so excited that he is willing to be here and share. So I'm just going to give it to you. You want to tell the listeners who you are and a little bit about yourself. Gary Jarboe [00:01:09]: My name is Gary Jarvo. I'm a retired sergeant with the Owensboro, Kentucky Police Department. My background when. When I was 18 years old, I joined the Marine Corps in 1969, which was, you know, people would say that's pretty crazy thing to do in the middle of the Vietnam War. But I enlisted for four years and spent four years on transport airplanes as flight crew before I got out. When I got back from overseas, I married my high school sweetheart, and we've been married this month for 53 years. Jennifer [00:01:39]: Congratulations. Gary Jarboe [00:01:41]: We have two sons and two grown sons and three grandsons who we love to go see. Ashlee [00:01:48]: Karen is outnumbered. Gary Jarboe [00:01:49]: Yes, definitely. In 1980, I was hired by the Owensboro Police department and spent 21 years there. Ashlee [00:01:59]: Wow. Gary Jarboe [00:02:00]: Retired after I'd had all the fun I could stand and all the fun that they could stand, and worked for another company for 13 years, and we've both been retired completely for the last 10. Jennifer [00:02:12]: Wonderful. I appreciate you sharing that extensive resume, and I want to thank you for your service. Ashlee [00:02:17]: Yes. Jennifer [00:02:17]: I have very important to say. You know, one thing I really appreciate about you, Gary, is that you're always open about your experience and saying you know, Ashlee and I are mental health professionals and saying, where was this 30 years ago? So can you talk a little bit about the difference of today in terms of just us using the word mental health and the experience of when you were first on the department in your career and what mental health was like in terms of that experience? Gary Jarboe [00:02:48]: Yeah. My only experience with any mental health professional until I came to PCIS was an interview I had when I was hired. And it was. I don't know how I can put this delicately. Jennifer [00:03:03]: You don't have to. Gary Jarboe [00:03:04]: But none of us were impressed with the practitioner that we talked to. Jennifer [00:03:08]: I understand that is delicate. Gary Jarboe [00:03:11]: And throughout my career, we had an employee assistance program like you're required to have. No one that I know of would have ever called employee assistance because we knew it was a direct line to the chief and. Or city hall. And we instinctively have a distrust of what we don't understand. And we have all heard horror stories of people's bad experiences with mental health professionals, and that's with any. Any occupation. But cops are control freaks. They don't want to give up control to anybody. Gary Jarboe [00:03:50]: And to. And you don't bear your soul to anybody. And that's. And that's a problem for us. And I'll be honest, it was for me and dealing with. With my family, you know, we don't even talk way too often. We don't talk to our families about things and. Sure. Gary Jarboe [00:04:07]: Not going to talk to some stranger. Jennifer [00:04:09]: Exactly. Ashlee [00:04:10]: Ex. Jennifer [00:04:11]: I appreciate you sharing that experience that you had, and I'm gonna dig a little bit deeper. You know, I appreciate you sharing your experience with the military, and I was very honored to get to work with service members and their families. And I do believe that the military is working hard to destigmatize mental health. But being in the Marine Corps, being at war, sometimes I see that experience of veterans that become police officers that it's so ingrained of. You're a soldier. Suck it up. I didn't know if that was a reinforcer or that made things different for you. Gary Jarboe [00:04:53]: You know, I really don't know. And I'll have to be honest. I spent four years in the Marine Corps, and I spent a little time in Vietnam, but I only saw their ice paddies from altitude. I was flying. I did not spend a year in Vietnam. We would run detachments in country and. And I was over there at the end of the Marine Corps involvement in Vietnam, so I wasn't even in there the entire time. But it's. Gary Jarboe [00:05:17]: You go to parris island in 1969. They tell you you're only there for one thing. Ashlee [00:05:24]: Yeah. Gary Jarboe [00:05:24]: And you know, they told us we were all going to Vietnam, which at that stage of the war I understand very few of the people I went to boot camp with actually winning country. But it's the attitude that they teach you. Ashlee [00:05:36]: Yeah. Gary Jarboe [00:05:37]: And, and it's the hard headed attitude. And, and I'll be honest with you, that hard headed attitude actually probably saved me. Jennifer [00:05:44]: Oh absolutely. Gary Jarboe [00:05:45]: Many years later when I had, when I was hit by a car and, and I was off work two years and my wife has told people that he probably couldn't have come back if he hadn't gotten hard headed at Parris Island. Ashlee [00:05:58]: Wow. Gary Jarboe [00:05:58]: Because I wasn't going to stay down. Jennifer [00:06:00]: That sounds like a Marine Corps. Yeah. Really hard at it. Ashlee [00:06:04]: Yeah, absolutely. And, and when I hear you talking about that too, like, I can't help but think like how much of that do you think translated to your home life? Like way too much. Way too much. Yeah. So it's, it's hard. Right. It's hard to get in that mindset and then just change it. I don't even know if that's possible for a lot of our first responders or for people who like you like a Marine. Ashlee [00:06:24]: Right. Like, yeah. And, but yet it's so beneficial on one side because we like you just said like hard headed and you got through something so big in your life and then yet it can be very impactful on the other side of things too. Did you start to notice that at all? It kind of going deep here with your family but like how that translated to your family? A little bit. Gary Jarboe [00:06:45]: Not until later. Ashlee [00:06:46]: Yeah. Gary Jarboe [00:06:46]: You know, you don't show vulnerability. Ashlee [00:06:49]: Yeah. Gary Jarboe [00:06:50]: You can't be vulnerable. You know, you've got to walk into the bar fight, necessarily walk in by yourself. But I mean you wait in the middle of it. And when I was a, when I was a rookie police officer, it was, I always had this thing in my mind that, you know, how will I react when I get to my, my first fight? Because I was little skinny guy. I've gained the number of pounds now. But yeah, I was, I was a pretty thin guy, barely met the minimum weight limits to get into, into the Marine Corps. Ashlee [00:07:23]: Oh wow. Gary Jarboe [00:07:24]: And, and until I had my first knock down drag out on the street, I had that, that doubt in my mind and it happened to be with my training officer several months after I'd gotten out by myself. And you know, he made the comment that you've done good rookie and that that was What I needed, and that's what I did the rest of the time I was in. Yeah, but yet you don't have that vulnerability. And I didn't. I didn't tell a lot of things at home because I didn't want to burden her. And she had never been exposed to the kind of life that I was seeing every day. I mean, her family, there was. There was no violence. Gary Jarboe [00:08:07]: There was no alcoholism. I mean, that she'd never seen domestic violence. And, you know, she used to say that she had heard all the stories, but what she heard was the stories that we would joke about when we get together. Jennifer [00:08:22]: The PG stories. Gary Jarboe [00:08:23]: Yeah. She didn't hear about the really bad ones, the ones where I was scared half to death and, you know, because you just don't burden your family with that. Jennifer [00:08:31]: Right. And I think it's that thing that is such a. A tightrope to. To walk, because I think it is. I love my family. I would not want. Ashlee [00:08:40]: Yeah. Jennifer [00:08:41]: To burden them. I don't want to upset them. I want to. You know, I'm protecting all these people in my community. Of course I want to protect my family. And yet that sometimes can be a misstep. Gary Jarboe [00:08:54]: Oh, we. We paid a price for it, really. And I've said, you know, when I come to. To the PC, is that. Where was this 35 years ago? It would have been a whole lot easier on my whole family and on me had I been able to. To do what I've. I've done since I've been here. Ashlee [00:09:11]: Yeah. Ashlee [00:09:12]: Do you feel like your connection then to your wife has grown stronger? Gary Jarboe [00:09:15]: Oh, definitely, definitely. And after we came here, we talked about things, and she heard about things that she had never heard about in all the years since I got on the department. Ashlee [00:09:27]: Yeah. Gary Jarboe [00:09:27]: And even other things that we. We have better communication now than we had before. Ashlee [00:09:33]: And I'm going to take a second here to tell our listeners a little bit. Like, we won't go into detail. Details about the title or anything of the program, but it is a mental health program that we met Gary at, that they get to come and it's for first responders, and they get to come and talk about some of these intense, critical incidences that they've been through and honestly open up and get the help from mental health professionals and peers who have been through it as well and get to talk with their families. Wives are included. Spouses of any kind are included. And so I just want to put it out there because we're referencing it so much of, like, I mean, I think what's really powerful is that you were, you were retired into secondary. Gary Jarboe [00:10:09]: Yeah, I've been retired 21 years before I came. Ashlee [00:10:12]: Oh, wow. Ashlee [00:10:13]: Wow. Gary Jarboe [00:10:13]: Because it didn't exist at all while I was working. Jennifer [00:10:16]: Right. Ashlee [00:10:16]: Like the mental health world didn't. But is it okay if I ask and if this is too much, let us know? Like what, what made you decide finally to say, hey, I'm. I got stuff I gotta work on and I'm gonna go do that even after the career. Gary Jarboe [00:10:29]: Well, a couple of friends of mine that I had worked with and had retired and got back into it, just in conversation, told me about PC. I'd never heard of it until a little over two years ago. Ashlee [00:10:40]: Yeah. Gary Jarboe [00:10:41]: And they were telling me about it and they both were raving about it. Said it's great, you need to, you need to go. Ashlee [00:10:46]: Yeah. Gary Jarboe [00:10:47]: So I did a little research and looked at it. I looked online. I thought I knew I had some demons hanging around. Ashlee [00:10:53]: Yeah. Gary Jarboe [00:10:54]: And I sat down with, with Karen and I said, would you go to this with me? And she said, yeah. So got online and got myself into it. And I'll be honest with you, on Monday I was trying to figure out a way that I could run. Jennifer [00:11:10]: Understandably run. Ashlee [00:11:12]: Yep. Gary Jarboe [00:11:13]: And on Wednesday, driving home, I was saying, where was this 35 years ago? Jennifer [00:11:18]: You know, I hate to say this, but I think you're a little bit of an outlier to know that you've been retired. Ashlee and I talk a lot about the impact of the career. And then retirement can be a really dangerous place sometimes. Time for officers. Do you care to share a little bit like what helps? I mean, you said, you know, I had these, these demons and being open. But unfortunately people that retire from a first responder career, that can be some hard times. And if you can share a little bit like what was helpful for you in terms of. Or what has been helpful for you in terms of retirement. Gary Jarboe [00:11:53]: Well, I came in here with, with one thing that had, had bothered me and had bothered me for years. And I talked about it when I was here. And then I realized that that was just one of many. I have had a. Hell, I've lost count. Six, seven follow up sessions. Ashlee [00:12:12]: Yeah. Gary Jarboe [00:12:12]: With an MHP since then. You know, I, I call Hannah my savior, but it's. And some of it goes back to my childhood. But there were things that, that had really bothered me. I spent five years, about 9

Hosts: Dr. Ashlee Gethner, LCSW – Child of a Police Officer Jennifer Woosley Saylor, LPCC S – Child of a Police Officer Guest: Brian Box CFS, Retired US Army & Police Sergeant Episode Overview: In this enlightening episode, Ashlee and Jennifer welcome Brian Box—former army officer, police sergeant, and now financial advisor—to unpack the unique financial challenges and opportunities faced by first responders. The conversation weaves Brian’s personal journey from military to law enforcement and eventually into financial planning, illustrating firsthand how these careers impact financial wellness, family life, and long-term stability.   Key Topics Covered Brian’s Journey: Brian shares his background from Texas A&M to the U.S. Army, his years as a police officer, and ultimately the career pivots and financial planning that led him into advising other first responders. Unique Financial Challenges for First Responders: The trio discusses overtime as a built-in option for many first responders, the trap of “lifestyle creep” with higher base pay, and the stress of balancing multiple roles at home and work. Financial Wellness & Family Impact: How money stress contributes to marital strain and higher-than-average divorce rates among first responders, and practical tips for healthy budgeting. Budgeting & Debt: Brian dives into why a budget is your top wealth-building tool, the debt snowball method, and how to break the paycheck-to-paycheck cycle common in 80% of U.S. households. Retirement & Pensions: Explanation of first responder pension systems, their limits, and what planning for retirement really looks like—especially for those entering the field later in life. Teaching & Resources: Details about the financial education classes Brian and his team provide to academies and departments, plus online resources like their “Legacy Go Bag” for organizing wills and vital documents. Success Stories & Impact: Brian shares small but important victories—helping first responders pay off debt, retire with confidence, and break destructive financial cycles for good.   If this episode resonated with you or if you have stories to share about living with a first responder, reach out to Ashlee and Jennifer on their social media platforms!   Thank you for tuning in! Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review "When The Call Hits Home" on your favorite podcast platforms!   Follow Us: - Facebook: When The Call Hits Home Podcast - Instagram: @whenthecallhitshome - Whenthecallhitshome.com --- This podcast does not contain medical / health advice. It is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment and should not be relied on as health or personal advice. The information contained in this podcast is for general information purposes only. The information is provided by Training Velocity LLC and while we endeavour to keep the information up to date and correct, we make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the Podcast or the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in the podcast for any purpose. Any reliance you place on such information is strictly at your own risk.  WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE NOR LIABLE FOR ANY ADVICE, COURSE OF TREATMENT, DIAGNOSIS OR ANY OTHER INFORMATION, SERVICES OR PRODUCTS THAT YOU OBTAIN THROUGH THIS PODCAST.  Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment and before undertaking a new health care regimen, and never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast.

Hosts: Dr. Ashlee Gethner, LCSW – Child of a Police Officer Jennifer Woosley Saylor, LPCC S – Child of a Police Officer Guest: Gary Jarboe, Retired Marine & Police Sergeant Episode Overview: In this powerful episode, Jennifer and Ashlee sit down with Gary Jarboe, a retired police sergeant and Marine Corps veteran, to discuss mental health in first responder careers and beyond. Gary shares openly about his military background, long law enforcement career, personal challenges, and the journey toward seeking mental health support, even long after retirement. The conversation dives deep into breaking the stigma surrounding mental health for first responders, the impact of career stress on family life, and the power of vulnerability. Gary also provides heartfelt advice to younger generations entering public service, emphasizing the importance of not holding back when it comes to getting help. Key Topics Covered Challenges of Seeking Help: Stigma around mental health for police and veterans; how the culture of “sucking it up” impacted both work and home. Impact on Family: The difficulty of sharing traumatic experiences with loved ones; how avoiding vulnerability affected relationships, especially with his wife and children. Turning Point: Discovering a first responder-focused mental health program (PCIS) after retirement—Gary’s reflections on finally opening up and how it strengthened his marriage and communication with his family. Advice for New First Responders: Don’t wait to get help; keep your “bucket” from overflowing; acknowledge and address mental health needs early. Destigmatizing Mental Health: The importance of finding the right provider who understands first responder culture, and why programs tailored for police and veterans are so crucial.   If this episode resonated with you or if you have stories to share about living with a first responder, reach out to Ashlee and Jennifer on their social media platforms!   Thank you for tuning in! Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review "When The Call Hits Home" on your favorite podcast platforms!   Follow Us: - Facebook: When The Call Hits Home Podcast - Instagram: @whenthecallhitshome - Whenthecallhitshome.com --- This podcast does not contain medical / health advice. It is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment and should not be relied on as health or personal advice. The information contained in this podcast is for general information purposes only. The information is provided by Training Velocity LLC and while we endeavour to keep the information up to date and correct, we make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the Podcast or the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in the podcast for any purpose. Any reliance you place on such information is strictly at your own risk.  WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE NOR LIABLE FOR ANY ADVICE, COURSE OF TREATMENT, DIAGNOSIS OR ANY OTHER INFORMATION, SERVICES OR PRODUCTS THAT YOU OBTAIN THROUGH THIS PODCAST.  Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment and before undertaking a new health care regimen, and never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast.

Host: Dr. Ashlee Gethner, LCSW – Child of a Police Officer Jennifer Woosley Saylor, LPCC S – Child of a Police Officer Guest: Chief Deputy Justin Miller, Kenosha Sheriff’s Office Episode Overview: In this insightful episode, Ashlee and Jennifer, welcome Chief Deputy Justin Miller from the Kenosha County Sheriff’s Office. Chief Deputy Miller shares his journey from serving as a Navy psychiatric technician to law enforcement leadership, opening up about how personal experiences and organizational gaps in mental health support shaped his mission to prioritize officer wellness. Key Topics Covered The Struggle for Support: Chief Deputy Miller recounts moments where, due to budget cuts, Employee Assistance Programs (EAP) and peer support teams were unavailable, leaving officers without organizational resources for mental well-being. Personal Impact: He discusses the life events that first drew his attention to the importance of officer mental health, from the suicide of a significant other to his own family losses, and the organizational culture’s lack of compassion. Culture Shift in Law Enforcement: The conversation delves into the challenges of changing a deeply ingrained “rub dirt on it” mindset, and how being promoted doesn’t always mean having a real voice for change. Innovative Wellness Initiatives: Chief Deputy Miller outlines current strategies in his department. Breaking the Stigma: Chief Deputy Miller explains how officer education, transparency, and leadership modeling are critical for long-term cultural change. Family & Community Impact: The importance of involving officer families in wellness programs—offering access to resources, education, and community-building events. Advice for Leaders & Providers: For law enforcement administrators - Be humble, open to new ideas, prioritize serving your people, and build cultures where feedback leads to actionable change. For mental health professionals - There’s a pressing need for more providers trained to understand first responder culture, as well as resources tailored for both officers and their families. From Struggle to Success: Chief Deputy Miller shares that Kenosha has achieved zero vacancies in both patrol and corrections—a rarity in the current law enforcement climate—and credits a strong, invested culture of wellness and leadership development. Resources Mentioned: Cortico Wellness App Smart Dollar (Ramsey Solutions) The Fearless Organization by Amy C. Edmondson The Ideal Team Player by Patrick Lencioni   If this episode resonated with you or if you have stories to share about living with a first responder, reach out to Ashlee and Jennifer on their social media platforms! Thank you for tuning in! Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review "When The Call Hits Home" on your favorite podcast platforms! Follow Us: - Facebook: When The Call Hits Home Podcast - Instagram: @whenthecallhitshome - Whenthecallhitshome.com --- This podcast does not contain medical / health advice. It is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment and should not be relied on as health or personal advice. The information contained in this podcast is for general information purposes only. The information is provided by Training Velocity LLC and while we endeavour to keep the information up to date and correct, we make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the Podcast or the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in the podcast for any purpose. Any reliance you place on such information is strictly at your own risk.  WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE NOR LIABLE FOR ANY ADVICE, COURSE OF TREATMENT, DIAGNOSIS OR ANY OTHER INFORMATION, SERVICES OR PRODUCTS THAT YOU OBTAIN THROUGH THIS PODCAST.  Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment and before undertaking a new health care regimen, and never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast.

Justin Miller [00:00:00]: Can I get the current number for eap? I have an employee here who might need some services. Their response was, yeah, we don't have EAP anymore due to budget cuts. And I'm like, okay, well, so at that point, in this agency, we didn't have a peer support team. And it was just. There was nothing. There was no. I had nothing to do for that employee. And I kind of felt like a loss other than what I knew from my psych time. Justin Miller [00:00:28]: Right. And so I just kind of counseled them myself. But I knew at that time that we had to be better. Jennifer [00:00:35]: Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Jennifer. Ashlee [00:00:38]: And I'm Ashlee. And we do have. I'm just going to say it because it's like a running joke. Now, a very special guest today, and this person has turned into one of my very favorite humans quickly. So I'm honored to have him on, and I'm going to let him introduce himself because we got a lot of good content today. Justin Miller [00:00:53]: Hello. I am Chief Deputy Justin Miller from the Kenosha Sheriff's Office, Kenosha County, Wisconsin. I've been in law enforcement since 2002, and prior to that, I was in the Navy as a psychiatric technician, which is. Ashlee [00:01:08]: I know Jennifer's face. It's like, wait, what? Jennifer [00:01:10]: Yeah, yeah, this is a podcast. But if you guys saw my face, I did not know that was on your resume. My goodness. Ashlee [00:01:17]: Yeah, it's really hard because he knows all the ins and outs, too. Like, he's. Justin Miller [00:01:19]: He's with it, the old ins and outs now. Ashlee [00:01:24]: He's amazing. Jennifer [00:01:26]: I was about to make a bad joke. Okay, well, we're excited that you're here today, and I appreciate your time, and I appreciate you sharing that you're a chief deputy, and I think that's kind of what we want to talk a little bit today in terms of your title and what it means to be leadership in law enforcement. And I just kind of want to ask, when did you recognize that investing in mental wellness for the officers you would serve should be a priority or prioritized? Justin Miller [00:01:49]: Yeah. So I touched a little bit on some of my background, but, yeah, psych tech in the Navy from 95 to 2000. I think about my time when I work back in the field. It kind of opened my eyes to the world of mental health. And full moons. Full moons are a real thing. Ashlee [00:02:05]: A real thing. Justin Miller [00:02:06]: Inpatient psych world. That's a real thing. But I worked in the inpatient unit at Great Lakes, and I think about the medications that we administered as Navy Corpsman basically did the work of nurses. Right? We. We actually gave the shots and administered medications, did the surgeries, things like that. Right. But I remember, like, watching the. Those. Justin Miller [00:02:27]: Those side effects of those medications, you know, the catatonic shuffle, the tardive dyskinesia, you know, things you would see in, like, those old movies, but then you would see it in real life and it was like, surreal, Right? You know, my mom's uncle was in an inpatient unit when I was growing up, so I can still remember the smell of. Of the psych unit when you would walk in. And it smelled the same way when I was in the Navy. And then when I got out and I went to Arizona State University, I worked as a psych tech in the Maricopa County Hospital, which was totally different than my time in the Navy because basically, like the little room that you're sitting in, I did a lot of coloring activities with the patients and fed them. Right. We didn't. We couldn't administer medication. So in my time with the sheriff's office, I would say that, you know, I experienced a couple major personal life events in my first seven years as a deputy. Justin Miller [00:03:22]: One of them being I had a significant other who committed suicide. And then my. I lost my mom in 2009, and she was like my best friend. So there is no help offered or even compassion given within this organization. Right. And you know, another event I recall is I was at my uncle's funeral and I got a call from the department and the supervisor on the other end of the phone was ordering me in for duty, like, immediately. Right. And I was like, at my uncle's funeral, and he's in. Justin Miller [00:03:56]: His response was, and I quote this, well, uncles are not covered by funeral leave, so you have to come in. And I remember going to my family and like, hey, I gotta leave, because I just got ordered into work. And they were, like, dumbfounded and just like, I couldn't even participate in the funeral for my uncle. Ashlee [00:04:19]: Right, right. Justin Miller [00:04:20]: So that was. So I fast forward, you know, to my second assignment as a sergeant. You know, I get promoted, and again, I get promoted. I think, okay, I'm going to have a voice in this game. Right? And not necessarily that mental health was on my top priority list, but even in the military, you always want to be promoted because you want to be better than the people that. And I use this in a loose term, led you, or I should say manage you, because there's a difference between leaders and managers, right? Yeah, I can teach anyone to manage somebody, but to actually lead them is, I think, is a calling, but I won't go into that right now. Jennifer [00:04:57]: I think that's a good point, though. Ashlee [00:04:58]: It is, it is. Justin Miller [00:05:00]: So I was assigned to the conveyance unit, and one of my employees had some, let's just say, major mental health issues that they were dealing with. And on one of our filing cabinets, I remember there was this magnet for eap, right? And I just remember seeing that magnet. Never heard anything, talked about eap, Nothing, you know, So I gave the employee that information, sent them on their way. Well, they returned, like, 15 minutes later and said, yeah, the county isn't covered by that anymore. And I'm like, what? And they're like, yeah, they said that we're not covered, that this. This is an old number or something. So I called my hr, and I was like, excuse me, can I get the current number for eap? I have an employee here who might need some services. Their response was, yeah, we don't have EAP anymore due to budget cuts. Justin Miller [00:05:53]: And I'm like, okay, well, so at that point, in this agency, we didn't have a peer support team, and it was just. There was nothing. There was no. I had nothing to do for that employee. And I kind of felt like a loss other than what I knew from my psych time, right? And so I just kind of counseled them myself. But I knew at that time that we had to be better, right? However, being a sergeant and that old. In that old culture of the department that I work in, I had no voice, you know, again. So I'm like, all right, well, I got to be promoted lieutenant to have a voice. Justin Miller [00:06:27]: Well, again, find out that that's not the case. So when I was promoted to captain in 2016, again, I finally. Finally would be able to be heard because I got to sit at the table. So some other incidents that took place in our agency over the years that I just, you know, I'll never forget is just a couple officer involved shooting calls. One in particular, I. I was coming out from third shift, and we were. I was asked to bring out the less lethal beanbag gun, right? So I'm like, okay. And I was a. Justin Miller [00:06:59]: I was a hostage negotiator back in my day, right? And they were at a barricaded. Guy was just in his car. Barricaded, but had a long gun, and the SWAT team was out there. So I was asked to bring out this less lethal. So I bring it out, and I remember my boss was negotiating at the back of a squad car, and so I Run up to the back of the squad car with this gun, and I'm like, hey, where is the guy? And he, like, points and he's like, literally 10ft in front of us. And so I'm. As soon as I get there, you know, I hear, you know, I see the SWAT team. I see, you know, everyone's kind of around, and I. Justin Miller [00:07:40]: He's trying to communicate with him, and I see this guy's long gun come out of his window, and then just shots just rained out, right? And I was like, oh. I'm like, what just happened? Right? So I remember having to go. I. I got assigned to go with. I mean, the guy was killed. I got assigned to go with a body to the. To the hospital. And then once I cleared the hospital, they had me bring the mobile command, our mobile command center for interviews and things like that. Justin Miller [00:08:10]: And I remember the union requesting time for the officers to, you know, leave. You know, kind of what the protocols are now, right? You don't have to talk right away. There's a, you know, a level of decompression, all those things. Demanded. Actually ordered them to all stay on scene. And they were interviewed one by one in this command post, right? So then I think, okay, no one would. I know now, right. I didn't know any better back then, but no one would. Justin Miller [00:08:39]: I know now. I'm like, oh, my God, that was a horrible decision. Yeah, the. The trauma that they just experienced. I mean, you know, I went to the ER with this body, and I'm like, I just remember. I can still see, like the guy looked like Swiss cheese, you know, I mean, it was. It was like almost like stuff I've seen in the military from, you know, combat versus, you know, I'm. Wait, I'm out on the street. Justin Miller [00:09:04]: And I was probably only a couple years on at that point, you know, and so I think about that, and then I remember that those officers that were involved were told to come back to work in 48 hours and go back onto their shifts and got zero critical incident stress debriefs, zero opportunity to have counseling sessions where we didn't have eap because this is well before the budget. Bad magnet, right? Ashlee [00:09:31]: Yeah. Justin Miller [00:09:32]: There was, you know, a handful of different officer involved shootings that happened over my time up until my, you know, actually when I was first assigned the second shift as a lieutenant, one of my first months on, we had an officer involved shooting, and I actually bought my shift food, right. I brought it to. To kind of our safe zone, if you will, Right. And I bought Them food out of my petty cash. And I got my butt chewed for weeks, right? Because I wasn't supposed to buy food out of my petty cash. It's not authorized. And so. And, you know, fast forward. Justin Miller [00:10:11]: I just buy it out of my own money now. But whatever, you know, it's so I just remember that was the culture, though. The culture was you don't. I felt like you don't take care of your people. You just make sure that you're operationally ready. And. And, you know, then those officers again got, you know, thrown back into the road in 72 hours and told, you know, rub some dirt on it. You know, get back out there. Ashlee [00:10:33]: I think the most powerful thing about that, though, in our position, right, Is like, what you're saying still happens. Those negative things still happen at a lot of departments. Like, we still hear that today, right? And so I think that can be the challenge. And the frustration is like. And it's amazing that you're on here being open and talking about that, especially in your position, because, like, for us as clinicians, right, like, we hear. We still hear of all those negative things of people being like, oh, well, suck it up and get back out there. Oh, well. And it's like, how are we still in this position? And so it's important for us. Ashlee [00:11:05]: I do want to ask you, what is your department's current strategy for supporting the mental wellness of your officers after having that culture shift? What are you trying to implement? Justin Miller [00:11:14]: Yeah, so I would say that it's my personal, number one priority in the twilight of my career, something that I've been pretty passionate about for years, you know, been trying to change that culture. I've been told my ideas were too grandiose, out of touch with reality, you know, but over the last eight years, I've witnessed agencies all over the United States implementing the very things that I would talk about, right? Those cutting edge, you know, mental health days, mental wellness rooms. I mean, in West Virginia, they have a. I think it's called the Hero Center. It's like a mental health center. Like, right? Like, they have a gym, a room with. Next floor has all those massage chairs, and the next floor is just a meditation room. But those things I've always, like, I'm like, okay, why can't we work out on duty, right? Or whatever. Justin Miller [00:12:03]: It doesn't have to be workout, whatever you want to do for an hour, nap, siesta, whenever, you know, meditate. What? Like, why does it, you know, why does your, you know, 10, 7, or your lunch have to Be eating food. Right. Why can't we just do whatever we want during that time? So I think our strategy is to provide a psychologically safe workplace. And again, I've been reading this book, the fearless organization that just talks about creating a psychologically safe workplace that you can feel supported. Our employees have a voice, right. Making sure that everybody has a voice at all levels, have any and all resources that are available and at their fingertips. Right. Justin Miller [00:12:47]: We've actually partnered with this amazing provider that shares some of those same visions as I do. So I think we're getting there. Jennifer [00:12:54]: I've heard about that provider. Justin Miller [00:12:56]: Yeah. I mean, other than being a Bears fan, she's, I'm not a Packer fan, so it doesn't matter. Ashlee [00:13:03]: No, we actually get along very well because of that. Justin Miller [00:13:06]: Right, Right. But currently we have an app called Cortico which is, you know, and kind of a one stop shop for wellness, if you will. There's different programs in there. There's one touch provider like, you know, we can p

Host: Jennifer Woosley Saylor, LPCC – Child of a Cop Guest: Jim Woosley: Retired Police Officer Episode Overview: In this powerful episode, Jennifer sits down with her father, Jim Woosley—her hero and retired police sergeant—to recount and reflect on one of the most significant critical incidents of his career: the 1989 mass shooting at the Louisville Courier Journal building. Through raw storytelling and honest conversation, they explore the emotional realities of first responders, family impact, and how support systems have evolved. Key Topics Covered A Day That Changed Everything: Jim recounts the morning when a routine shift quickly escalated into chaos after hearing of a shooting at 6th and Broadway. He shares, in vivid detail, what it was like to be one of the first responders at the scene, managing panic, uncertainty, and the urgent need to save lives. Frontline Decisions & Human Impact: The conversation covers the split-second decisions—like whether to carry a shotgun into close quarters, putting on a bulletproof vest, and ultimately choosing to help transport victims to the hospital using police cars when ambulances were scarce. Jim also shares his emotional connection to one of the survivors, a new mother returning from maternity leave. Aftermath & Community Response: Jennifer and Jim talk about how the Louisville community came together in mourning, the intense media coverage, and the urgent need for better EMS resources in the wake of tragedy. Critical Incident Stress Debriefing: They discuss the rare-for-the-time group debrief for first responders, how it helped change attitudes toward mental health in law enforcement, and the relief felt in not being alone with difficult emotions. Legacy for Families: Jennifer shares her experience as a first grader during the incident, highlighting the unnoticed but profound ways such events affect children. They reflect on the importance of open communication, resilience, and age-appropriate transparency for first responder families. If this episode resonated with you or if you have stories to share about living with a first responder, reach out to Ashlee and Jennifer on their social media platforms! Thank you for tuning in! Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review "When The Call Hits Home" on your favorite podcast platforms! Follow Us: - Facebook: When The Call Hits Home Podcast - Instagram: @whenthecallhitshome - Whenthecallhitshome.com --- This podcast does not contain medical / health advice. It is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment and should not be relied on as health or personal advice. The information contained in this podcast is for general information purposes only. The information is provided by Training Velocity LLC and while we endeavour to keep the information up to date and correct, we make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the Podcast or the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in the podcast for any purpose. Any reliance you place on such information is strictly at your own risk.  WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE NOR LIABLE FOR ANY ADVICE, COURSE OF TREATMENT, DIAGNOSIS OR ANY OTHER INFORMATION, SERVICES OR PRODUCTS THAT YOU OBTAIN THROUGH THIS PODCAST.  Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment and before undertaking a new health care regimen, and never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast.

Jim Woosley [00:00:00]: As I was sitting down to relax and enjoy the coffee and the paper, a run comes up over the radio about a shooting at six and Broadway. Jennifer [00:00:09]: Welcome back to when the Call Hits Home. This is Jennifer and I'm excited again to meet with my number one hero here, my dad. We enjoyed talking our last episode and so I just wanted to continue and talk some more. So you want to introduce yourself again. Who are you? Jim Woosley [00:00:27]: Oh, I'm still Jim Woosley and also Jennifer's father. Jennifer [00:00:33]: Awesome. So we wanted to talk a little bit about a critical incident and an experience you had as a first responder, role responder with a critical incident and then just talk a little bit and have some conversations about that. So would you mind sharing kind of. I don't want to say your first critical incident, but obviously maybe one of the. Would you say the biggest one in your career? Jim Woosley [00:00:59]: It. Yeah, probably the biggest one. The one that stands out the most. Yeah. Jennifer [00:01:06]: So tell us a little bit about just the story in terms of that experience. Jim Woosley [00:01:11]: What happened was it was a workplace incident where there was a mass shooting and this girl employee went in with numerous weapons. And I'm not remember now, they killed like nine or 11. There was 18 or 19 wounded. And I'm not saying it's the first, but it's one of the first mass killings in the States. It's one of the first. And this was in the late 80s. Jennifer [00:01:41]: It was September 14, 1989. Okay, so, yeah, so it was last. So tell us just about your day that day. What happened? Jim Woosley [00:01:50]: Well, at the time I was a. A uniformed sergeant in the downtown Louisville district and it was a routine day. And I went like, I started most of my days and went to McDonald's to get my coffee and read the newspaper. And as I was sitting down to relax and enjoy the coffee and the paper, a run comes up over the radio about a shooting at 6 and Broadway. Well, it's 9 o' clock in the morning. So my immediate thought, well, it's a domestic shooting and we don't have many shootings that time of day and it's domestic shooting. So I get up to head out to my car to head that way and there's another sergeant there and he says he's going. So I'm thinking, well, there's no need for two sergeants there. Jim Woosley [00:02:34]: We'll get to each other's way. So I go back to sit down to drink my coffee and the run comes out to kind of update on it. And it's obvious it's more than just a simple Shooting more than just domestic shooting. So. So I'm about six or seven blocks away. It's. It's rush hour. Shortly after in the downtown area, traffic's pretty heavy, and I might make my way there. Jim Woosley [00:02:57]: And it's a building that I'd never been in before. It was at the part of the Courier Journal, which, if you're not familiar, that was or still is our local newspaper. And behind it was State Ramirez and Stan Romero was the company in the building where they printed the paper. It was attached to the newspaper building where the. Where the riders and editors and whatnot worked. So I head and get to the parking lot, and by this time there's several off several cars coming up. And I go open the truck in my car and I have a shotgun, the truck of a car, and I get the shotgun out and I see somebody else with a shotgun. Well, I said, well, we're going in an office building. Jim Woosley [00:03:37]: We don't need two shotguns in close quarters. So I put the shotgun back, and I had a bulletproof vest in there, and I put that on over my uniform. And I go to the scene. And like I said, we're surrounded. And I'm on the east side of the building, and the interest is on the west side, the business interest. So I go around to the east side and the EMS pulls up and I'm getting on the radio and I said, where can the EMS get in? How can they get in? How can they get in safely when we don't get a response? So I go get the first EMS people and we go in a little area and in the office area is on the second floor. It's a little unusual. They have an elevator that goes up to the second floor. Jim Woosley [00:04:15]: And you get on the elevator and you get off. That's where the reception and the offices are of the. Which I didn't know at the time. So we, me and the two man's people get the elevator. And I remember getting in the elevator and smelling gun, smoke, gunpowder. You can tell there's been shots fired. And, you know, it's got that. That scent to it. Jim Woosley [00:04:34]: We get up and the Eldore's coming up, and I get on the radio and I tell them, don't shoot. We're coming out of the elevator. I got ems. Don't shoot. And we step out of the elevator and we have to step over two bodies. They're laying right there in front of the elevator. Two women are shot and they're. They're bleeding there. Jim Woosley [00:04:50]: There's two officers in there already. So me and EMS get off. The EMS goes to the one girl, lady, and they start fooling with her and working with her and, and I, I check around a little bit and I go talk to this other girl and I say talk when she's shot. And I'm trying to do little first aid and trying to secure us because we still got an active shooter going on. And I end up talking to her for, I don't know, 10, 12, 15 minutes. And the other lady the EMS worked on, she passed away and they leave her. And there's other people shot on this floor, plus there's several floors. It's a, like I said, penny press. Jim Woosley [00:05:30]: And it's, it's an industrial building, which is huge, and, and we know nothing about as far as the layout. So I'm, I've stayed with this lady and she says, man, she's hurting and all, she's really in pain and I'm lying to her. I said, well, that's good, man. You, pain, you're feeling things, that's really, that's a good sign. It's good to be, be hurt because that means, you know, you, your, your senses are good, your, you're feeling pain that, that your body's reacting well and it's just coming, it's coming out this deep, dark, real thick blood. And we're there. I don't know how long we're there, but seemed like eternity. And other people are coming in, they're chasing through the building. Jim Woosley [00:06:08]: And the guy's got. Found out this later, he's got a duffel bag full of weapons in an ammunition and he's dragging it and shooting, dragging and going. He's going up and downstairs. He gets the point. In my opinion, duffel bag got too heavy for him to carry. So he lays it down, he takes some weapons, goes in a break room and he kills two or three in the break room and wounds two or three more. And that the police, I said, we, not me personally, but the police, we got between him and his duffel bag when he come back to get more weapons. Amnesia. Jim Woosley [00:06:42]: He saw that things wasn't going good, so he took his own life then. But meantime, I'm talking to this girl and holding her hand and say, you're doing good, you're doing great. Everything's going to be all good. And I'm not a ems. When I first started on the police department, for about a year we were ems. We drove station wagons, hit two man cars and we did that for about a year and then they Created ems and, and we got out of that business. And I was thankful for it. I, I love EMS because they do so much better job than we. Jim Woosley [00:07:15]: The end of the ideas specifically. But I'm talking to her and tell her things going to be good. And, and. And I'm getting to the point. I don't want to move her because I know she could be paralyzed and all, but she's bleeding so bad. So we got to do something. We got to get her out here. You know, if you paralyze her, that's better than being dead. Jim Woosley [00:07:33]: So I get another guy and I said, get her feet. We're going to carry her out. We're right by the other. We get on the elevator, take her downstairs, and there's. There's no way ambulance. Just chaos is going on. And the guy's coming by in a police car and I stop him and he's going to get the mare. And I said, man, we need your car. Jim Woosley [00:07:51]: He said, I gotta go get the marriage. You go get the bear. But we taking your car. And we commandeered his car, put her in the back seat and got a driver, and he drove her to the hospital. Let me go back in. And we do the same thing with a couple others. We take them outside, put them in police cars and take them to the hospital. By that time, we found out that the shooter has been. Jim Woosley [00:08:15]: He's taking his long life, like I said. So the situation is, we did a thorough beer. Then it starts. Make sure he's by himself and all. And we're kind of relieved. I know we're sitting up there in this same area, this reception there, which then we're petting herself on the back and said, wow. And we hear a commotion in the back. And some guy comes out of the back. Jim Woosley [00:08:36]: This is an hour later. He's been hiding back there for an hour, afraid to come out. I don't know. We scared him, but I was in uniform. How he come out? I said, come on, man, I'll walk you out. I took him outside and he was, he was, as you can imagine, shaking, upset, but, but, but safe. That's pretty much the events of that day. Jennifer [00:08:58]: So after that happens, I mean, is there. I mean, you said they're trying to get the mayor, so I'm assuming they did like a press conference, because that was, I'm sure, big news. Jim Woosley [00:09:08]: Yeah, yeah. Like I said, it was one of the first in the country. We had press conference. We had the. At that time, they had the, the news trucks, I guess now they use Just the cameras. They don't need the big trucks, but I guess they still got the trucks, but they had the news trucks, and we had the news trucks out there. The news trucks were from Cincinnati, St. Louis, and everybody. Jim Woosley [00:09:30]: It was a big item at the time. They all showed up in the next two to three. There's the header pose up and doing live shots. Jennifer [00:09:39]: So then what happens after this intense morning? Jim Woosley [00:09:43]: Well, there was a. As you can imagine, a sense of shock and sadness, and just over come the community. Not. I mean, the whole community was in a state of mourning. One thing I remember the next day, I. I'm worried about. We paralyzed this girl because, you know, we. We. Jim Woosley [00:10:04]: She had a wound and injury. No. And me and a couple other guys, it was the next day or two days later. We went to the hospital, several of those. And. And it's a couple days because I talked to doctors, and the doctor said that it took a. The bullet took a piece out of a spine size of a golf ball. She was paralyzed. Jim Woosley [00:10:26]: There's nothing we did. Well, it wasn't good, but it made you feel a little bit better that. Jennifer [00:10:31]: Right. Jim Woosley [00:10:31]: We didn't cause more damage. Jennifer [00:10:32]: I want to be respectful because I don't want to use people's names, but can you say, like, a little bit of her backstory that, you know, first. Jim Woosley [00:10:41]: Of all, it was her first day back at work. She'd been off for like two or three weeks or maybe a month, I don't remember, for maternity leave. She. She had a new son who was, you know, month old, two months old at the time. So she was just back to work from attorney leave. And her dad told me, like I said, the news media was there, and it was a picture of me in the paper. And I'm sorry, but take your time. There's a picture of me in the paper and say the paper come out. Jim Woosley [00:11:11]: Her dad told me she saw me in the paper. Sorry. Jennifer [00:11:16]: Okay. Jim Woosley [00:11:18]: And she points to me, said, that's my placement. But we could. We've got friends. Oh, we went to her house and I saw her kids and she came to. Jennifer [00:11:29]: I think we hosted something. And she came to her house as well. Jim Woosley [00:11:32]: Yeah, she came to her house and. Jennifer [00:11:35]: She was a mom again. Jim Woosley [00:11:37]: Yeah. More kids later. She had a. Had a daughter, and I'm not senior for a few years, but. But last I know, as far as I know, she had two good kids and everybody as well. Jennifer [00:11:47]: But something like that's impactful. Jim Woosley [00:11:49]: It is, but it is. Jennifer [00:11:51]: Well, I think it's okay that you, you know, shed Some tears over that. It's a pretty scary day and made an impact obviously on somebody's life. But we brought this up to talk a little bit about our experience and, you know, to say this happened in 1989 and then to think about it just a couple years down the road here. I'm sure 1989 feels like yesterday for me. I know it feels really soon for you as well. But I think you mentioned that they did offer some kind of, you know, critical incident, you know, conversations. The police department. Was it the police department? Jim Woosley [00:12:38]: Yeah. Jennifer [00:12:39]: Can you talk a little bit about what that is? Jim Woosley [00:12:41]: They did this kind of know what we're calling his crystal incidents. Was. Was new. But they made us go talk to some people and we were all big, tough, bad placement. Nobody wanted to do that. I didn't want to do that. But we made. They made us go see when we did in a group, and My group was 10 or 12. Jim Woosley [00:13:02]: And it was really good. The guy that run it was really good. It was helpful. It. I had a change of attitude over it. They do can do some good and it's, you know, you ought to encourage it. Jennifer [00:13:16]: What was helpful about it? Jim Woosley [00:13:18]: Well, you saw that you weren't the only one that had these thoughts or feelings or beliefs and.

Hosts: Dr. Ashlee Gethner, LCSW – Child of a Police Officer Jennifer Woosley Saylor, LPCC – Child of a Cop Episode Overview: In this heartfelt episode, Jennifer and Ashlee take a break from interviews to have a raw, honest conversation—just the two of them—about a theme that impacts every first responder family: money. They open up about how financial stress shaped their own childhoods as police officers’ kids, explore the pressures that come with trying to provide, and dig into the hidden costs of working extra: time away from family, emotional stress, and tough financial conversations at home. Together, they tackle common misconceptions (spoiler: not all first responder families are rolling in dough), share some hilarious stories (RIP Jennifer’s egg demonstration activity), and get real about why financial stress can make or break families. Key Topics Covered The personal impact of financial stress growing up in first responder households How societal expectations and job identity can make it hard to balance work and family The “work as escape” dynamic, and how overtime can sometimes be about avoiding conflict at home Why communication about money is so hard—and so important—for couples and families The myths around first responder salaries and the reality of living paycheck to paycheck How early childhood experiences with money shape adult anxieties, defensiveness, and relationship patterns Upcoming plans to bring on financial experts to offer tips and tools for listeners Why Listen? If you’ve ever worried about money, argued about overtime, or felt pressure as a provider (or partner/kid of one), this episode is for you. Jennifer and Ashlee share their own vulnerabilities and clinical insights, reminding every listener that you are not alone—and that honest conversations are the first step to healing. If this episode resonated with you or if you have stories to share about living with a first responder, reach out to Ashlee and Jennifer on their social media platforms! Thank you for tuning in! Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review "When The Call Hits Home" on your favorite podcast platforms! Follow Us: - Facebook: When The Call Hits Home Podcast - Instagram: @whenthecallhitshome - Whenthecallhitshome.com --- This podcast does not contain medical / health advice. It is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment and should not be relied on as health or personal advice. The information contained in this podcast is for general information purposes only. The information is provided by Training Velocity LLC and while we endeavour to keep the information up to date and correct, we make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the Podcast or the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in the podcast for any purpose. Any reliance you place on such information is strictly at your own risk.  WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE NOR LIABLE FOR ANY ADVICE, COURSE OF TREATMENT, DIAGNOSIS OR ANY OTHER INFORMATION, SERVICES OR PRODUCTS THAT YOU OBTAIN THROUGH THIS PODCAST.  Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment and before undertaking a new health care regimen, and never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast.

Jennifer [00:00:05]: Hi. I'm Jennifer Woosley Saylor. I'm a licensed professional clinical counselor and the kid of a cop. And this is the podcast when the call hits home. Ashlee [00:00:14]: Hey, everyone. It's Ashlee Gethner. I'm a licensed clinical social worker, and I'm also a child of a police officer. Jennifer [00:00:21]: Hi. Welcome back to the pod. I'm Jennifer. Ashlee [00:00:24]: And I'm Ashlee. And if you are playing the little drinking game of every time we say we have a special guest, you lose out today because it's just us. Jennifer [00:00:34]: Oh, I wanted you to say that we have the most special guest today, which is just you and I. Ashlee [00:00:40]: You know what? You're right. You are. But I think we're excited to just come on and talk because we do have we've had some really incredible things happen. We've had some really incredible guests. And, you know, it's always good for us to come back to just each other to really touch base, touch home with everybody and talk about some things that we're seeing happening. Jennifer [00:00:59]: I'm just having a flashback to the our first recording when I was a nervous wreck, and it was just you and I. And, like, I think I wrote an entire script out to, like, us You did? No. We did. We did. We really didn't. I still love it. Oh, do you? Well, we'll go into our library one day. But yeah. Jennifer [00:01:22]: So I think sometimes it's nice just to have you and I that we love our guests to just talk about different things. And I know one of the things that we have mentioned, like, in other podcasts and just, like, moving forward and the whole family dynamics. And And I guess it's just been on my mind a little bit too with eggs being really expensive. And, you know, it's just talking about, like, the financial stress that can happen within a family and then, you know, what does that look like in the family of a first responder when it's a high stress job? So, yeah, I kinda wanna talk a little bit about that today. And I'll Ashlee [00:02:00]: put a little caveat in there that you've had changed your resiliency class because of these egg prices. So people need to get on that. We had a class going. Okay? And eggs ruined it. Jennifer [00:02:14]: Hilarious that you bring that up. So for people who have not had to sit through my resiliency class. So good. Which actually came because of COVID. So I do this, like I mean, people probably hate it. I'm the speaker that's like, you're not gonna get to just sit on your phone and not pay attention to me. I'm gonna make you do things. So I get lots of eye rolls when I give my presentation. Jennifer [00:02:40]: But with COVID, I you know, people couldn't be close building something together, so I got creative, and we did an egg launch. And I think people really enjoyed smacking eggs against the concrete. But then that turned into, like, I can't afford to do that anymore. And people were like, I miss the eggs. I miss the eggs. And I'm like, well, you're gonna have to go buy the eggs. I can't that Ashlee [00:03:04]: can't come Jennifer [00:03:05]: out of ways like counseling. Like, that's just have a chicken coop. Like, really lazy chicken coop, fresh eggs because It would be hot hot off the nest. Like Ashlee [00:03:16]: Sorry. I'm just derailing us today. But you're not wrong. The financial aspect right? We're roping it back in, and that financial aspect really is taking a hit on everybody right now. Jennifer [00:03:27]: Yeah. It is. And it's a stressful thing, and I think so I think this comes up and is why this is an issue for me is, sorry, mom and dad, but we all thought about money a lot. Like, that was a huge stressor, I think, in my experience growing up is just the stress of money. And, I mean, my parents definitely gave me coins to pay for my lunch at times, like, you know, just because things were tight and things were hard, and that's back in the day when we had a decent economy. Like, it's even harder when things are tough. And so I just understand the impact that that has, and I think that that's a big impact for a lot of families sometimes is just the financial stress. Ashlee [00:04:16]: Yeah. And I know we've kinda hit on this a little bit before in different episodes, but I think it's really important to to talk about, like, the family aspect, the family dynamics so we can talk about it as children of first responders and what that was like for us. Because I do think there's a little bit of a misconception of like, I remember people being like, oh well your dad's a police officer, like you guys are fine, like financially, and what was far from the truth. Unfortunately I cannot bring any positivity to this either, so my, the way I grew up was not good, and I know I've shared that before in terms of finances and my parents fighting about it as well. So I think, like, money just brings me massive anxiety. Yeah. To this day. Like, to this day. Ashlee [00:04:59]: Say, oh, that's my worst thing too. Like, okay. So people said that about my dad, but even now, right, I get this all the time. Well, you're the doctor of social work, people. Have you looked up the salary because it isn't what you think. Right? Like and but yet money really is something that impacts us. And I know, Jennifer, we were talking about our childhoods and how they were kinda similar in that way of just being stressed out about money. And and I think a lot of our first responders fall under this umbrella of getting caught in a cycle that we can work a lot and make money, but then life is happening, and I have to afford it all too. Ashlee [00:05:39]: So it doesn't actually ever catch up. Jennifer [00:05:41]: You know, I think that's a hard one too. And and, you know, I think, like, I've seen that a lot in terms of this job, you know, sitting in this chair as a therapist and hearing situations where there's first responders who are picking up tons of shift, who are working multiple jobs. You know, I even think about some firefighters who are firefighters and then part time contractors. You know, they're doing home repairs for people all in this aspects of, you know, having more money, which is, you know, I think, again, it's like, well, let me think outside the box. Let me figure out how to provide. And then, unfortunately, I think in a few situations where that kinda blows up in its way because, you know, maybe the family is like, well, you know, you're never home. Like, we never see you. And, well, I'm working so I can provide so you guys can go do the things and that recognition of, like, but we wanna do those things with you. Ashlee [00:06:42]: Yeah. Jennifer [00:06:42]: You know, that's great that you send us to Disney, but we want you at Disney with us. That can be extremely hard as well. Ashlee [00:06:51]: And I'm gonna say something that's maybe a little, like, challenging, right, for people to hear, but, I'm just honest on this show. I'm honest in person. It's who I am. Right? Like, while there's this aspect of, well, I'm working to provide, and that's fair. I do see that a lot. I also see a lot of my first responders having struggles within their home life. And so it's easier to say, let me go pick up all this overtime because I'm making money and avoid the conflicts at home, sometimes too than to just be, you know, home with the family. And I think, like, I would love any listener listening to us to be insightful on that because while you are doing that ensure you are providing, and it's a great excuse. Ashlee [00:07:34]: Right? Hey. I'm bringing home the money. We need the money. Everybody needs more money. Right? Like, you are missing out on all that time with your family then too, Jennifer [00:07:44]: like, especially your kids. Well and I appreciate, you know, that there is some situations where that is really true. I I've found my broken record. I don't know if I've shared this or not here. But, I mean, I can remember having my son and being on maternity leave. And, you know, he was this wonderful thing that we were so happy to have. And I look forward to going back to work, and I was like, what's this about? And, you know, in some reflection and meeting with my own therapist and talking about, like, well, I'm much more confident as a therapist than I am as a mom. And I think that that can be really true sometimes. Jennifer [00:08:25]: And and, again, like, I'm happy to be a mom. I don't just, you know, put them in a closet and work all the time. But anyway not. But it's also this kind of idea that sometimes you're exactly right. Like, that there is some comfort in why I know the job. Maybe the job is black and white. Maybe the job is where some place I can get some feedback. And, you know, people don't have to know every aspect of me. Jennifer [00:08:54]: Like, our family knows every aspect of us and sometimes love to remind us that we're human and things. And so I appreciate you bringing that point up, Ashlee, that sometimes it's well, it's about providing for my family when, really, it's about escaping some of that stuff. That word. Ashlee [00:09:13]: Right? I actually hear that very, very often in my office. I hear, like, verbatim all the time, work is my escape. Jennifer [00:09:23]: Mhmm. Ashlee [00:09:24]: Escape from what? Right? Like, that should not that should be the opposite. Jennifer [00:09:29]: Mhmm. Ashlee [00:09:30]: And and that's a heavy word for me a little bit too. Like, clinician wise, like, escape. Like, it's a big word or we're not you know? And yet, my first responders say it quite often. You know? And I do think that finances are a really big theme that I see when I have first responder couples or families in my office. And, again, it is this escape of saying I am giving more money to this family by doing Jennifer [00:09:58]: this. Mhmm. Ashlee [00:09:58]: Right? And yet we're still avoiding kind of the main conflicts then. Jennifer [00:10:03]: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And when I think too of seeing ourselves as whole, like, again, when I talk about becoming a mom, I wasn't a mom. I, you know, was a daughter and a friend and a wife. And and and then there's this new role that I take on and having to see ourselves in all of those positions instead of just what I do. And I think that's a theme of the podcast is that we talk about this over identification with the job, and what does that do impacting our families. You know, I think reflect again to our first episode and talking about, like, oh, I'm the kid of a first responder or kid of a cop. Jennifer [00:10:50]: But really in my reflection of, like, well, he really was my dad first. Yeah. That's And this was something that was othered. And I don't know that sometimes though that line can be blurred. And I think that I've had experiences as a kid that that line can be blurred. Ashlee [00:11:06]: Absolutely. You know, when I present because I I I have this, like, opportunity that's been incredible. It's it's not easy for me to do, actually. I go present at different departments now about what it was like for me to be a child of a first responder, and I give all my credit to my dad for allowing me to be so open about things and to do that. Right? Jennifer [00:11:25]: Mhmm. Ashlee [00:11:26]: And yet when people ask me so I present on other topics as well. And I always say in my presentations, like, I would rather present on the other topics than what it was like for me to be a child of a first responder because I'm standing up there completely vulnerable, giving it my all. Right? And it is bizarre to me sometimes. Like, I think that just hit me, and now I'm processing out loud. Just that notion of, like, yeah. I guess I never stopped to think, like, he should have been my he is my dad first. Right? And yet when I, like, even do that presentation and stuff, like, it's all about him being a police officer before, you know, and then being my dad. Mhmm. Ashlee [00:12:05]: And so that is actually a very interesting take because I don't I don't know. Do you think it's easy for somebody to get that mixed up though too? Right? Like, the prior wouldn't it just be a priority at that point? The priority of being an officer in my career Mhmm. Versus my family. Jennifer [00:12:24]: Right. Ashlee [00:12:25]: But societally, we put so I don't even know if that was a word. But we put so much emphasis on our careers in making something Jennifer [00:12:32]: It is. Else. We go to a social event, you know, one of the first questions that if you meet a stranger is, what do you do? I mean, I definitely think that that is a huge part of our identity. Yeah. And we're not walking up to Ashlee [00:12:48]: someone being like, are you a mom? Jennifer [00:12:50]: Yeah. Right? Like, are you a dad? They do that too. I mean, I did ask somebody asked me yesterday if my child was in college, and I was like, no. No. But I guess you think I'm older. Ashlee [00:13:02]: Okay. First off, let's take a break in the action. Right. Jennifer [00:13:06]: No. No. Ashlee [00:13:07]: No. Norms one zero one. Don't say that to anybody. Jennifer [00:13:11]: Yeah. Yeah. Ashlee [00:13:12]: Yeah. Come on. Jennifer [00:13:13]: But, no. I mean, I definitely think that there's things like that to consider. You know? We're definitely taking this down a path, aren't we? Ashlee [00:13:22]: Yeah. Yeah. And more of, like, an open vulnerable one, though. Right? Because, like, I Jennifer [00:13:26]: was like, Ashlee [00:13:26]: uh-oh. Oh, that just smacked me in the face when you said that. Well, and it did because of that. Like and, again, I just stress when I give my presentations like this one. I actually don't love to give compared to my other ones because it's factual information. This is, like, my life and and being vulnerable. Right? And there are mo

Hosts: Dr. Ashlee Gethner, LCSW – Child of a Police Officer Jennifer Woosley Saylor, LPCC – Child of a Cop Special Guest: Jamilyn DeSanti, Licensed Social Worker In this episode, Jennifer and Ashlee are joined by special guest and long-time friend, Jamilyn, a social worker who specializes in working with children and adolescents. The conversation centers on the critical connection between our minds and bodies—specifically, the often-overlooked role of the vagus nerve in managing stress responses, especially for first responders and their families. Key Topics:   What is the Vagus Nerve—and Why Should You Care? Jamie Lynn breaks down how this “superhighway” nerve links your brain to almost every organ, controlling your heart rate, digestion, and more. Learn why your body feels stress the way it does—plus, how your early experiences shape this response. Recognizing YOUR Stress Signals Gain practical tips on building awareness of your unique stress reactions—because you can’t change what you don’t notice! (Spoiler: This is the same stuff we’re teaching your kids, too.) Hacks to “Reset” When Stress Hits Are deep breaths really all that? How about cold water, sour candy, singing out loud, laughter… even hot sauce?! The team shares tried-and-true ways you can quickly signal safety to your body in those high-stress moments. For Families: Helping Kids Tune In Parents, this episode has something for you! Jamie Lynn offers up playful and practical ways to help your kids notice their own body’s cues—and why, as parents, we have to check in with ourselves before we try to support our kids. Can You Sleep? If stress is tanking your sleep, you’re not alone. Jennifer and Ashlee touch on how vagal regulation and body-based strategies could help you (and your household!) get the rest you need. (Yep, we hear you—a full sleep episode is coming soon.) If this episode resonated with you or if you have stories to share about living with a first responder, reach out to Ashlee and Jennifer on their social media platforms! Thank you for tuning in! Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review "When The Call Hits Home" on your favorite podcast platforms! Follow Us: - Facebook: When The Call Hits Home Podcast - Instagram: @whenthecallhitshome - Whenthecallhitshome.com --- This podcast does not contain medical / health advice. It is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment and should not be relied on as health or personal advice. The information contained in this podcast is for general information purposes only. The information is provided by Training Velocity LLC and while we endeavour to keep the information up to date and correct, we make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the Podcast or the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in the podcast for any purpose. Any reliance you place on such information is strictly at your own risk.  WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE NOR LIABLE FOR ANY ADVICE, COURSE OF TREATMENT, DIAGNOSIS OR ANY OTHER INFORMATION, SERVICES OR PRODUCTS THAT YOU OBTAIN THROUGH THIS PODCAST.  Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment and before undertaking a new health care regimen, and never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast.

Jennifer [00:00:05]: Hi. I'm Jennifer Woosley Saylor. I'm a licensed professional clinical counselor and the kid of a cop. And this is the podcast when the call hits home. Ashlee [00:00:14]: Hey, everyone. It's Ashlee Gethner. I'm a licensed clinical social worker, and I'm also a child of a police officer. Jennifer [00:00:21]: Welcome back to when the call hits home. I'm Jennifer. Ashlee [00:00:24]: And I'm Ashlee. And today, we have, I have to say it, a special guest Jennifer [00:00:29]: Always special. Ashlee [00:00:30]: Always special. With you know, people can, like, make a game out of our podcast every time Ashlee does that. But it's always true. I mean, hey. Everyone who comes on here is super incredible, and we're always thankful. So I'm gonna hand it over to her now to introduce herself and get you guys a little bit of information about what we're gonna be talking about today. Jamilyn DeSanti [00:00:48]: I'm Jamie Lynn. I'm actually a long term friend of Ashlee's, and I am a licensed social worker, hopefully soon to be a licensed clinical social worker. Yeah. I'm licensed in Illinois and Wisconsin. Ashlee [00:01:00]: Yes. That's awesome. And so can you give us a little bit about what it tell us a little bit about the population you work with because this is different than what we're used to bringing on guest wise. Jamilyn DeSanti [00:01:12]: Sure. So currently, I actually work with, children's, teens, young adults. I mean, a little bit of everything, but my primary caseload right now is, yeah, children and adolescents. Ashlee [00:01:22]: Children and have folks? Children and adolescents. Let me tell you something. I couldn't do it. I do do it a little bit. I do do it a little bit. Jamilyn DeSanti [00:01:31]: It's fun. They're so fun. If I have to laugh because I always say this in, like, everything. Anytime I talk to somebody when I first started this career, I never thought I was gonna work with kids or teenagers, especially teenagers, because I had this mindset of like, oh, god. No way. Jennifer [00:01:45]: They're the worst. Jamilyn DeSanti [00:01:46]: And then I yes. Like, that was what I literally thought. I was like, I hated being a teenager, and there's no way I'm gonna work with them. And now I work with them, now that I've started, like, they're actually, like, one of my favorite populations to work with. Ashlee [00:01:59]: I love that. I love that. Actually, in my head, this is so bad, dad. Sorry. But, like, in my head, I'm like, oh my gosh. Same. You know, I actually grew up being like, gosh. These police officers. Ashlee [00:02:08]: I swear. I'm good. And now I'm like, give me more. Like, this is who I work with. So just I think Jennifer [00:02:14]: there is a little bit of, like, when you're start like, in school, if you say, I'm not going to work, that actually means you will will be working. I can remember being young and dumb and being like, I'm not gonna work with anybody with substance use problems and then cut to I'm running an IOP. Like, yeah. Ashlee [00:02:33]: Of course. Of course. Forward. I guess I thought Jennifer [00:02:36]: I wasn't gonna work with humans. Like, what do you mean you're not gonna be working with people with substance abuse problems? Yeah. This profession has a way of finding where things are. But, you know, this podcast is for first responders, and, Ashlee, I was really excited to have you on because some of the things you talk about with your clients, I think we think would be great for talking about with our awesome listeners. And that is tell us a little bit about kinda what you kinda hone in with with some of your clients. Jamilyn DeSanti [00:03:09]: Sure. So I really focus in on the connection of the body with the mind. And so, specifically, I work and use different aspects of, like, the polyvagal theory, which brings in this idea of the vagus nerve that actually has so much to do with the physiological response that our body has to our emotions. So that vagus nerve is actually, like, the longest cranial nerve in our system, and it touches every single organ in our body. And so then when that gets activated, what happens is oftentimes, like, maybe there's a stressor, and we have a big emotional response to that. But it's not just the emotions that we feel. It's the physical response to it. You know? So, like, our heart rate might increase. Jamilyn DeSanti [00:03:55]: Our digestive system slows down because it can't be in the way when we're, you know, feeling stressed. So it's things like that. It's building that connection, building that awareness of what is the physiological response that I have, and can I connect it to the emotions that I'm experiencing? Ashlee [00:04:11]: So I love this because every single one of my sheriffs who I know they all listen to me on this podcast. Right? Like, I'm gonna take token. Did I call y'all out or not and see how many of you know? Should know a little bit about the vagus nerve, but I don't go too far into it. So in my training, I talk about it. I just literally have one slide on it, and it's I give them the whole thing about the brain and how the brain reacts to this high stress job. But then I brought up the vagus nerve, and that's why I'm so pumped to have you on because I am the first to tell them, like, I'm I don't I haven't done my research on this much. I know the basics, and that's it. But they should all know, which makes me excited, what we are talking about. Ashlee [00:04:51]: And the further elaboration, I think, for me, is gonna be incredible to help all of my first responders who have listened to me train them now, get a little bit more insight on it because they definitely don't spend enough time on it. Jennifer [00:05:02]: And that cranial nerve is just we're talking about the base of our brain, and it goes all the way down our spine. Yep. So that is feel it everywhere. Massive. Ashlee [00:05:13]: I always think about it like touching. It's so creepy, but, like, touching everything inside of you. Right? Jamilyn DeSanti [00:05:19]: I do too. Like so when I think of, like, for whatever reason, I like to think of, like, the skeleton. Yeah. And then I think of the nerves that come through it, and I just imagine it touching every single part of our body. And so, yeah, it's it's that. Ashlee [00:05:33]: Kinda pumped because I felt the same way, and then I'm like, am I being silly? But I'm actually excited that our brains thought the same thing. Jamilyn DeSanti [00:05:40]: So I think it's just a I think it's a therapist thing. Maybe it's a nerd thing. I don't know. Ashlee [00:05:44]: I don't know. It's definitely a nerd thing. So tell us a little bit more about the importance of tapping into the vagus nerve and what that can do for us. Jamilyn DeSanti [00:05:56]: Sure. So the vagus nerve, it carries signals from our brain to different parts of our body. So that means our brain, our heart, our digestive system, our immune system is affected by the vagus nerve. And it's just the importance of that is building that connection of, like, yes. This is the response that I'm having to the stressor that I'm having and, you know, building that bridge there. Jennifer [00:06:20]: So I just I'm I'm gonna actually take one step back, which is just a little bit of the body mind connection. And, obviously, we're talking about this vagus nerve and, well, it connects. But can we talk just a little bit about how we experience our world and our bodies and then how our minds are a part of that? Like, that's a real loosey goosey therapy question there for you, Jamie Lynn, but Ashlee [00:06:52]: I'm gonna ask it. Jamilyn DeSanti [00:06:54]: Goodness. I mean, I might go on off on a whole different kind of tangent then with that. So I'm gonna kind of go back even to, like, early experiences, you know, early childhood experiences and how we view the world and its safety and our our felt safeness in that. And so built based on those early experiences even with, like, our caregivers, you know, having that safe, supportive, nurturing environment will often lead us to understanding the physiological responses in our body and trusting those responses. If we have kind of a hyperactive kind of nervous system, maybe because of trauma or maybe some insecure kind of attachments, like, we're gonna view the world differently. We might feel our emotions and the physiological responses with those differently than those in, like, a safe, secure, and nurturing environment. Jennifer [00:07:46]: Absolutely. I think that's important to talk about, so thank you for breaking that up. Ashlee [00:07:51]: Well, that and I think, like, just in terms of clinician world. Right? You say that, and I'm I start smiling because I'm like, this this is so true. Like and Jennifer can probably really relate to this is that when we have first responders come in our office Mhmm. A lot of the time, it is from their childhood. Right? And there is so much education that I have to give. And, Jennifer, you speak on this too, right, of, like, just exactly what you said of those early experiences shape some of this now. There's no doubt about this. Well and Jennifer [00:08:25]: I think we experience our world with our bodies, with how we see, hear, smell, taste, feel with our skin. Mhmm. And from that, we learn messages, especially when we're really little, like, who's safe, who's not safe. There was nobody keeping us safe, so I'm gonna work really hard to make sure I keep people safe. Or there was nobody that was protecting people, so I wanna protect people. Or there was crisis is all the time, and I had to go put out fires. And so sometimes I I mean, I'm speaking that from sitting on this side of meeting with first responders that sometimes it's I've been doing this my whole life. This isn't just started with I put on a badge or, you know, I put on the uniform. Jennifer [00:09:14]: So, yeah, I just think that that's exactly what you're saying there, Ashlee. And so why would it be important for first responders then to understand more? Because we don't have time machines to go back, you know, to recreate our childhoods. So what do we do in the here and now, and why would first responders be need to hear about this nerve? Jamilyn DeSanti [00:09:38]: I think it's about building recognition and awareness for when our bodies go into those different kinds of states based on those emotions. Jennifer [00:09:46]: Mhmm. Jamilyn DeSanti [00:09:47]: And without that recognition, without that awareness, we can avoid it. We can ignore it, or we can kinda lean into it. Or the more healthy option is how can I cope with this? Right. And and recognizing those differences of my body and my safety are in danger versus, you know, I'm actually safe in this moment, and it's just a perceived danger. Ashlee [00:10:10]: Something that's connecting in my brain right now, and I'm kind of flying off the cuff, so I'm sorry. But it's just that notion of our first responders live in this, like, hypervigilance. Right? So I guess in our world, we always say that that that their limbic system can be a little bit hijacked and that they're always kind of living with that amygdala signaling and those negative stress hormones dumping. And so could you speak upon, like, how activating the vagus nerve like, how does the vagus nerve help in that situation? Because I think we have a lot of first responders that they just never calm down. They don't know how to Jamilyn DeSanti [00:10:48]: be calm. Ashlee [00:10:49]: And so I think that the vagus nerve plays a pretty big role, and I love that you said recognition because I always stress you cannot change anything until you actually realize what needs to be changed. Absolutely. And so I think that there's like, can you speak a little bit upon how the vagus nerve can maybe help the brain when the brain is always on go like that? Jamilyn DeSanti [00:11:11]: Yeah. So because that vagus nerve touches every single organ and then so everything is connected, in that stress response, our vagus nerve is actually it's got, like, that low tone to it. And so the iron the irony of that is that everything else is really heightened, so our heart rate is increased. The signals in our brain are probably super fast, and we're just kind of queued in on what it is that we're doing in that moment. Everything else on the outside doesn't matter. And so that's that intense hyperfocus. Ashlee [00:11:43]: Tunnel vision. That's Jamilyn DeSanti [00:11:44]: Tunnel vision. Yes. Ashlee [00:11:46]: Men and women know it as. Yeah. Jamilyn DeSanti [00:11:48]: Yes. And so and for what I'm gonna guess is that for first responders, we they have to have that in order to do their jobs. But, yes, how do we turn that off then? And how do we find that safety in Yeah. Calmness? You know, how can we get back to that resting zone? I'm sorry. I forgot what the rest of that question was. Ashlee [00:12:06]: No. You're good. And I would keep going with that. Right? It's you can feed into it of, like so I guess, like, the next thing would be because it's important with that lower tone, what I think you're conveying too is that it it will help the body come back down. Yes. But we have to do we have to activate that for that to happen? Jamilyn DeSanti [00:12:24]: So there are yes. You do need to activate that because, otherwise, the vagus nerve is gonna do what it wants to do because it's just an automatic thing. We have actually no control over that. Ashlee [00:12:35]: Okay. Jamilyn DeSanti [00:12:36]: It's just an automatic response. But, yes, there are ways to calm that vagus nerve. Everyone's gonna probably roll their eyes at me because I always get eye rolls for this one. Deep breathing. Ashlee [00:12:45]: I was just about to say you're gonna say deep

Hosts: Dr. Ashlee Gethner, LCSW – Child of a Police Officer Jennifer Woosley Saylor, LPCC – Child of a Cop Special Guest: Tom Rizzo – Law Enforcement Leader, Author, College Professor, Cohost of On Patrol Live In this powerful episode, Ashlee and Jennifer sit down with Tom Rizzo—law enforcement veteran, motivational speaker, author, and father of four—to explore the realities of mental health in policing, the challenges around authentic leadership, and the impacts of the profession on officers’ families. Drawing on over two decades of experience, Tom delves into organizational culture, the importance of compassion within departments, and the journey toward personal and collective wellness. Key Topics: Guest Introduction: Tom Rizzo shares his background: 24 years in law enforcement, motivational speaking, hosting On Patrol Live, and teaching as a college professor. Above all, his proudest role is being a dedicated father. The Four Walls vs. Four Corners: Tom introduces his perspective on the dangers of organizations obsessing over their public image ("four corners") while neglecting the internal health and relationships ("four walls"—including officers’ mental states). Mental Health in Policing: Tom emphasizes the need for honesty about what truly causes stress: not always the danger on the streets, but the toxic organizational environments and lack of genuine support from leadership. Leadership & Accountability: A candid discussion about how mission statements have been hijacked by politics and bureaucracy, and why transparency, humility, and resourcefulness make for better leaders. Peer Support & Trust: Ashlee explores the challenges of building trust between peer support teams and leadership. Tom spotlights the importance of administrative honesty in supporting mental health initiatives. The Ripple Effect on Families: Tom, Ashlee, and Jennifer reflect on the ways the job impacts officers’ families and the generational ripple, stressing clear communication and including loved ones in major professional decisions. A Call to Action: Tom urges listeners—especially those supporting law enforcement—to push for common sense, empathy, and advocacy, both in the workplace and in the community. If this episode resonated with you or if you have stories to share about living with a first responder, reach out to Ashlee and Jennifer on their social media platforms! Thank you for tuning in! Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review "When The Call Hits Home" on your favorite podcast platforms! Follow Us: - Facebook: When The Call Hits Home Podcast - Instagram: @whenthecallhitshome - Whenthecallhitshome.com --- This podcast does not contain medical / health advice. It is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment and should not be relied on as health or personal advice. The information contained in this podcast is for general information purposes only. The information is provided by Training Velocity LLC and while we endeavour to keep the information up to date and correct, we make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the Podcast or the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in the podcast for any purpose. Any reliance you place on such information is strictly at your own risk.  WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE NOR LIABLE FOR ANY ADVICE, COURSE OF TREATMENT, DIAGNOSIS OR ANY OTHER INFORMATION, SERVICES OR PRODUCTS THAT YOU OBTAIN THROUGH THIS PODCAST.  Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment and before undertaking a new health care regimen, and never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast.

Jennifer [00:00:06]: Hi. I'm Jennifer Woosley Saylor. I'm a licensed professional clinical counselor and the kid of a cop, and this is the podcast when the call hits home. Ashlee [00:00:14]: Hey, everyone. It's Ashlee Gethner. I'm a licensed clinical social worker, and I'm also a child of a police officer. Ashlee [00:00:22]: Hi. Welcome back to the pod. I'm Jennifer. Ashlee [00:00:25]: And I'm Ashlee. And today, we have a pretty big guest. We're super excited. We're gonna hand it over to him to introduce himself. So go ahead, Tom. Take it away. Tom Rizzo [00:00:33]: So hi. My name is Tom Rizzo. So honored and so blessed to be here today with you guys, spending some time with you. I appreciate the invite. I've done a thing or two in the arena of what we're gonna discuss. So, yeah, you know, I'm in my twenty fourth year of my career in law enforcement. Took a couple of diversions off the tracks. I wrote a book, you know, traveled the country, being a motivational speaker in the area of, leadership, mental health, wellness, resiliency, and kind of everything that falls within it. Tom Rizzo [00:01:05]: And, super fortunate that, little over a year ago, I was fortunate enough to get the opportunity to be considered as a cohost on the show, All Patrol Live. It's the relaunch of live PD. So I've been doing that. College professor for God knows, what, thirteen, fourteen years. And, but the proudest thing that I have is my background is I'm a father of four. So, those are my the my four monkeys. Those are my why. And, so yeah. Tom Rizzo [00:01:33]: Let that that's that's my Reader's Digest version about me. Ashlee [00:01:37]: And I feel like I have to say thank you to you again because I I feel like our listeners need to know. So I was literally at home one day. My dad is a retired officer as a lot of us know now, but he loves the show on patrol. He loves it. And we were sitting there watching it, and we were like, who? Who's Tom Rizzo? Like, he's new, you know, sticks the gun, like, all these things. And I was like, I'm gonna reach out to him. And my dad was like, it's not like you're not. And I go, yes. Ashlee [00:02:00]: I am. Yeah. I am. And so I did, and just so thankful that you were able to respond, and you've been so kind to me and willing to do all these things. So I greatly appreciate you so much. Tom Rizzo [00:02:11]: No. The the pleasure is mine, and and I always try to be as responsive as I can, to people who reach out. I've made that pledge before I was doing the show, you know, and being an instructor and a speaker that if you if you're gonna offer people help, you have to make yourself readily available to give that help. So I try to be as responsive as I can. It's difficult, because I wanna always place my four children first, so I don't wanna be distracted on my time with them. But I believe very much so that, you know, responsiveness is the key in the arena of being supportive of each other. I'm just a product of my environment and the blessings that have been given to me just trying to pay them forward. So thank you for that. Ashlee [00:02:51]: Well, that's beautiful, and I appreciate that, especially the ability to know if you gotta put your money where your mouth is. Like, if you're gonna say this is what we wanna support, you wanna do that. In this little brief synopsis she gave us about, it sounds like a very mosaic of career, what would you say kinda leads to using that word mental health and mental health services, especially for officers? Tom Rizzo [00:03:16]: Very candidly. I'm just I believe in share a lesson learned should be a lesson shared. Like, you know, and what Maya Angelou said once, when you learn, you teach. When you get, you give. And I I guess I don't mind ruffling feathers. I've always been the type to be respectfully insubordinate, and I believe you could be both at the same time. So I challenge our own. I preach, this theory that I came up with where where I always say we obsess over the four corners. Tom Rizzo [00:03:51]: So that would be the four corners of your district, your jurisdiction, your industry even. Mhmm. And we make sure that that looks shiny and clean and neat and plausible to the stakeholders in the community and the and the politicians. But the four what's happening within the four walls is chaos and turmoil and toxicity and vitriol and invective. So I've challenged the system to say, how about we obsess over what's happening within our four walls, sometimes the four four walls of our own heads, meaning our brains, and how we're treating each other. And I firmly believe that there's then a reciprocity effect on the customer service that we put out there. I think that we've been operating in this field of a Jekyll Hyde syndrome for far too long. You know, we have to be polite and courteous and respectful and empathetic toward perfect strangers, then we get into the hallways of our building, and we're throwing sticks in each other's path. Tom Rizzo [00:04:53]: And we can't wait with the knife around the corner. Yeah. But then, you know, to people like you guys who are out there actually caring for us, we're not giving you the honest scoop as to what's really plaguing us. Ashlee [00:05:09]: Oh, man. That just hit so hard because I just just recently, I had someone who's higher up come up to me and be like, you're I hear you on your podcast, and and he's amazing, honestly. And he's like, I hear you on your podcast, and I hear you talking kind of, like, poorly about admin and stuff. And I said, no. I'm just talking truths. Like, I'm trying to express these things, and I think that's why you're so inspiring to me because I'm like and he is too. This gentleman that I'm talking about, he is too because he's on this path of trying to figure it out himself as well. Like, how do I play this big role in my department but make change? And so, like, I think that's super powerful because I was like, no. Ashlee [00:05:45]: I promise you. Like, I'm just trying to be honest on this show, and and this is what I hear all the time. This is what we hear all the time from the people that come see us and get help. So I guess my question for you is, like, how did that transpire for you, or how do you how do you kinda manage that now within your department? Tom Rizzo [00:06:02]: Well and, again, I'm trying not to get emotional about this because I was gifted everything. Nothing you you know what's funny about me? Not comedic, ironic. I I was the youngest to ever be promoted to sergeant. I write about this in my book overnight of over $40,000 raise. Who wouldn't that be a game changer for? I got the patch I wanted. I got the raise. Now I got the money. I got the I didn't even make it a month before I was back to woe is me. Tom Rizzo [00:06:30]: And why? My environment. You know, everything so I say this very, very, very candidly. I'm not John Wayne. I'm not the, you know, this police officer that's, you know, breaking all the records. What I say is, but I have experienced just about I mean, we don't ever say all in my line of work because there's always tomorrow is a new day. Right? Ashlee [00:06:53]: Yeah. Right. Tom Rizzo [00:06:54]: I've experienced as close as you can to every letter in the almanac of this gig in the twenty four years I've been doing it. And I will tell you, nothing comes even close, not even a microcosm of the stress and the anxiety and the strife that I've experienced as to to the right and to the left, to the top and to the bottom of the people I work with. Mhmm. So so I can and and and politicians and legislators. Like, so what's funny to me, again, not comedic, is that the overwhelming majority of the public are good. The overwhelming majority of mental health professionals want to help us. But what does everybody focus on? Oh my god. It's so dangerous what they do in the streets. Tom Rizzo [00:07:41]: Oh my goodness. They saw a dead body. So let let me hurry up in there and give them a crisis debrief. How about you just tell my boss to just treat me like a human being? That would offer me so much more help. You know, I saw I saw this, press conference with a foreign basketball team in a in in, like, a a national tournament, a semifinal game, and he sent one of his key players home and gave him leave because he was having a child. And and the reporter said, but you never you don't let people take leaves, not during this time. This is for the championship. The guy turns around and he says, the championship. Tom Rizzo [00:08:20]: He says, do you have any children, young man? And the guy says, no. He goes, well, then you'll understand exactly why I did what I did. He goes, playing basketball? This is the coach. He's He's not worried about risking his job. He's not worried about, you know, the likes. He's not worrying about the acceptance from his peers. You know what he's doing? He knows by investing that little bit of connection in one of his key players, it will metastasize in the buy in he gets from the rest of the team as to you see me more than just what it is I could do for you on the court. So put that into my wheelhouse. Tom Rizzo [00:08:57]: If you give me just a little bit and you see me hurt, you see me stressed, you see me experiencing birth of a child, a marriage, an intimate birthday anniversary, the death of a loved one, a divorce, buying a home. I could go on and on and on. And you made me feel as if you truly care because you can relate to that. Man, I'll give you 10 times the energy back as an employee. Ashlee [00:09:26]: Yeah. So why is this happening? I mean, sorry. But Ashlee [00:09:32]: Great question. Ashlee [00:09:33]: Why is it that we or what we're hearing is that we eat our own? I mean, why is that what's happening sometimes in agencies? Tom Rizzo [00:09:44]: Because I think that we've allowed our missions to be hijacked. Ashlee [00:09:48]: Okay. Tom Rizzo [00:09:49]: And when you allow you know, you can go into the overwhelming majority of buildings, public safety agency related buildings, first responder related buildings, and you could see a mission statement that's normally in a plaque on a wall. You could then go and stop those people who belong to that organization in an alley and say, what's the mission of this organization? And they won't know. Ashlee [00:10:10]: Mhmm. Tom Rizzo [00:10:10]: And why won't they know? Because, again, those missions were hijacked by political patronage, by some type of checkbox, by some type of pandering to a peanut gallery. I've said this since jump. I believe evolution of our industry is a must. I'm a huge advocate of reformations when we've revealed a flaw. What I find very ironic is we ignore the fatal flaws that we have that have led to attrition, that have led to such mental health issues. You talk about you tell me in the advent of accreditation, advanced technology, resiliency programs, why are suicide rates at an all time high? Mhmm. Why? And and I'll and it's a rhetorical question, Jen. And the reason why I'm saying this is because when I go to these symposiums, I see people sitting there congratulating each other all day on the next golf outing that they're going Ashlee [00:11:10]: to Tom Rizzo [00:11:12]: or or what FBI National Academy session that they graduated from. Ashlee [00:11:16]: Right. Tom Rizzo [00:11:17]: And now now listen. I gotta be careful because I've had stoned on me for this. I'm not coming at you as if I'm some type of jealous crybaby. I was offered to go to that FBI school four times. I declined four invites because I had young children. So it's not that I was never worthy. I matter of of fact, I've taught for their alumni association seminar. So I often laugh because I'm good enough to go teach for these things. Tom Rizzo [00:11:44]: But I often say to them, if this is the epitome of schools, right, and and the elite of the elite, why is it that we continue to perpetually have these problems then? And I often tease because they're they're friends to me, these men and women. I said, did they teach you that at the FBI school? I see the way you're behaving. Did they teach you that? And now let me be fair. Here's my asterisk. I think the leaders of public safety organizations have also been abandoned. The leaders of the organizations don't have channels that they can then go to and say, hey, guys and girls. I'm frustrated. I'm being screwed with by politicians. Tom Rizzo [00:12:26]: I'm being hamstrung by some type of, you know, nonprofit group, some type of anti opposition group. What would you like me to do? Like, they don't know how to ask for help. Ashlee [00:12:40]: Right. Tom Rizzo [00:12:41]: But then here it is again. Here in New Jersey, there's a there's a program for chiefs of police, like a peer group thing. Ashlee [00:12:47]: Mhmm. Tom Rizzo [00:12:48]: What if I told you I volunteered for free to help with it? And you know what I was told? Well, sorry. You have to be a chief. Ashlee [00:12:55]: Oh my gosh. Gosh. Tom Rizzo [00:12:56]: Okay. I don't wanna hear. Here it is. Guess what? Flush the toilet on me. I promise you. There is nobody in this planet that's gonna be able to say something about me that I haven't done 10 times worse about myself. I don't get offended. Go go ahead. Tom Rizzo [00:13:13]: Flush the toilet on me, but then at least what if I gave you a guy or a girl who's fantastic? But what? You're gonna discount them because they don't wear a star? That's the type of crap I'm talking about. Right. Ashlee [00:13:26]: What a great example too. So I'm sitting here, and I'm like, of course, my brain's going a hundred. And, Jennifer, I kind of braced you for this. I'm like, he's so powerful that you you can only you take it in, and you're like, how do I where do I go with this? Right? Ashlee [00:13:38]: That was such a blunt ques

Hosts: - Dr. Ashlee Gethner DSW, LCSW: Licensed Clinical Professional, child of a police officer - Jennifer Woosley Saylor LPCC S: Licensed Clinical Professional, child of a police officer Guest: - Mark Mueller, Retired Police Lieutenant / Owner of I Smell Bacon BBQ Episode Overview In this inspiring episode, Jennifer and Ashley welcome Mark Mueller, a retired police lieutenant from Hoffman Estates, as he shares his journey from a decades-long law enforcement career to opening a community-centered barbecue restaurant, “I Smell Bacon BBQ.” Mark is also a father and husband, with a family dedicated to public service. Key Discussion Topics 1. Navigating Retirement as a First Responder 2. Taking the Leap — Starting a Business After Service 3. Law Enforcement Skills in Civilian Life 4. Supporting the Family and Creating Community 5. Practical Advice for Retiring Officers 6. Finding Joy and Purpose Beyond the Badge If this episode resonated with you or if you have stories to share about living with a first responder, reach out to Ashlee and Jennifer on their social media platforms! Thank you for tuning in! Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review "When The Call Hits Home" on your favorite podcast platforms! Follow Us: - Facebook: When The Call Hits Home Podcast - Instagram: @whenthecallhitshome - Whenthecallhitshome.com #WhenTheCallHitsHome #Podcast #FirstResponderFamilies #MentalHealth --- This podcast does not contain medical / health advice. It is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment and should not be relied on as health or personal advice. The information contained in this podcast is for general information purposes only. The information is provided by Training Velocity LLC and while we endeavour to keep the information up to date and correct, we make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the Podcast or the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in the podcast for any purpose. Any reliance you place on such information is strictly at your own risk.  WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE NOR LIABLE FOR ANY ADVICE, COURSE OF TREATMENT, DIAGNOSIS OR ANY OTHER INFORMATION, SERVICES OR PRODUCTS THAT YOU OBTAIN THROUGH THIS PODCAST.  Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment and before undertaking a new health care regimen, and never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast.

In this inspiring episode, Jennifer and Ashlee welcome Mark Mueller, a retired police lieutenant from Hoffman Estates, as he shares his journey from a decades-long law enforcement career to opening a community-centered barbecue restaurant, “I Smell Bacon BBQ.” Mark is also a father and husband, with a family dedicated to public service.

Hosts: - Dr. Ashlee Gethner DSW, LCSW: Licensed Clinical Professional, child of a police officer - Jennifer Woosley Saylor LPCC S: Licensed Clinical Professional, child of a police officer Episode Overview: In this episode, Jennifer and Ashlee reflect on the their first year of the "When The Call Hits Home" podcast, discuss potential future topics, and reflect on their own personal experiences as children of police officers. Key Topics: One-Year Anniversary Reflection: Jennifer and Ashlee reflect on how the podcast began as a small idea and grew into a platform providing support and insights for those related to first responders. They emphasize that the podcast aims to address what listeners want to hear. Potential Future Topics: Listener suggestions for future episodes include peer support, welcoming new family members, financial wellness, and retirement of first responders. Peer Support Discussion: The hosts discuss the important role of peer support programs in departments and the challenges they face, including trust issues within departments. They highlight the value of combining mental health professionals with peer support teams. Financial Concerns for First Responders: Financial struggles faced by first responders are highlighted, including the balance between supplemental off-duty work and family time. Jennifer and Ashlee share personal anecdotes related to financial management in a first responder family. Approaching the Topic of Retirement: Acknowledgment of the need to discuss retirement concerns and future plans for retired first responders. Exciting news about an upcoming episode featuring a retired officer and his new endeavors. Personal Reflections and Anecdotes: Jennifer and Ashlee open up about their own childhood experiences related to having parents in law enforcement. Ashlee shares a humorous memory about using her dad's work shirts as part of a Halloween costume. If this episode resonated with you or if you have stories to share about living with a first responder, reach out to Ashlee and Jennifer on their social media platforms. Don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast! Thank you for tuning in! Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review "When The Call Hits Home" on your favorite podcast platforms! Follow Us: - Facebook: When The Call Hits Home Podcast - Instagram: @whenthecallhitshome - Whenthecallhitshome.com #WhenTheCallHitsHome #Podcast #FirstResponderFamilies #MentalHealth --- This podcast does not contain medical / health advice. It is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment and should not be relied on as health or personal advice. The information contained in this podcast is for general information purposes only. The information is provided by Training Velocity LLC and while we endeavour to keep the information up to date and correct, we make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the Podcast or the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in the podcast for any purpose. Any reliance you place on such information is strictly at your own risk.  WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE NOR LIABLE FOR ANY ADVICE, COURSE OF TREATMENT, DIAGNOSIS OR ANY OTHER INFORMATION, SERVICES OR PRODUCTS THAT YOU OBTAIN THROUGH THIS PODCAST.  Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment and before undertaking a new health care regimen, and never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast.

Jennifer [00:00:06]: Hi. I'm Jennifer Woosley Saylor. I'm a licensed professional clinical counselor and the kid of a cop, and this is the podcast when the call hits home. Ashlee [00:00:14]: Hey, everyone. It's Ashlee Gethner. I'm a licensed clinical social worker, and I'm also a child of a police officer. Jennifer [00:00:22]: Welcome back to the podcast. I'm Jennifer. Ashlee [00:00:25]: And I'm Ashlee. Jennifer [00:00:27]: Welcome. Welcome. It is just Ashlee and I today. Why is it just us today? Because schedules are crazy, and all our other guests we've booked out, so it's just us today. Ashlee [00:00:40]: That's so true. We do have guests lined up, but we both have been working real hard these last few weeks. I I can't even believe we are in April at all. Jennifer [00:00:50]: Oh, I'm I'm I'm not okay with that. I need it to be, like, March. Like, that would be good with me if we could have just a couple more days in March before it's April. 6 Ashlee [00:01:01]: You know what we need to do? We need to do, like, the Ellen show, and, like, we need some we need some people who will just fill in for us sometimes. Jennifer [00:01:08]: Like, please sit on the podcast. Ashlee [00:01:10]: Like, can you just actually do this for us because we Jennifer [00:01:12]: have weird around it? Actually, I guess it will be me and the guest host because I have nothing better to do. I'm here for this podcast. Ashlee [00:01:22]: Stop it. Stop it. Stop Jennifer [00:01:24]: it. But Ashlee [00:01:25]: we are excited because we were talking this morning, kinda collecting our thoughts, and, wow, guys. Like, we are literally just a well, it's been a year. It's been one year since we started when the call hits home. Jennifer [00:01:39]: Which is wild. You know? We were talking about that beforehand, and this was just a little seed of an idea. You know, I think, Ashlee, you and I talked about a book. Like, that's where this started. It did. Thank god I didn't have to write a book. Probably you were thinking I just finished a PhD, and I had Ashlee [00:01:59]: to read all these books. Jennifer [00:02:00]: I wanna get some payback for, like, I'm gonna I'm just gonna read my book now. Oh. So I can't believe that this, like, little seed has approached to a little sapling now in terms of it being a year for us. And we were just talking about, like, what do we wanna talk about today, and, I'll speak for myself, Ashlee. I got pretty flooded. Like, we could talk about this. We could talk about that. We could talk about this. Jennifer [00:02:24]: We could talk about that. And so we just wanted to come on and talk about all the things. And I think I first wanna say is we wanna talk about what you guys want us to talk about. That's definitely what we're here for. We're here for you, the listeners. I mean, Ashlee and I can just talk all day. We just don't have to record it. So this really is about what you guys want to hear from us. Jennifer [00:02:45]: And one of the things that people have reached out about is kind of peer support is one of the things. Mhmm. Ashlee and I have talked about after Breeze episode, just talking more about, postpartum and what happens when we invite a baby into our homes and our lives. That's something we've talked about, financial wellness for first responders and the importance of this. Are you guys here in the spectrum of things that we're, like, trying Correct. Ashlee [00:03:14]: Yeah. I've also gotten such a slew of, like, retirement. Hey. What about our retired officers and firefighters and, you know, first responders? And I'm like, yeah. Officers and firefighters and, you know, first responders? And I'm like, yeah. That's so true. I mean, both of our dads are retired, so we do have that, but I think we we are just skimming the surface like it's been a year, and yet there is just so much out there that we still need to discuss and and circle back to. Right? Like, these conversations, they don't just end after one time. Jennifer [00:03:44]: No. Not at all. I think, again, I what's most recent right now is Bree's episode and talking about what that's like to be a new mom, which was so generous of her to come on and share that and the impact of that and being a first responders family. And so I'm just like, oh, we need to talk more about that for sure. Ashlee [00:04:05]: Yeah. And Bree's, episode, man, we just have to thank her real quick again because we got so many messages, just so many people reaching out. She did incredible. I think she just opened that book for a lot of people to be like, oh my goodness. Yeah. I need I need to talk about this or I need to hear this. I feel validated that someone else is feeling the things that I feel too. And then so I am just extremely grateful for that. Jennifer [00:04:32]: Absolutely. I mean, I'm appreciative to all our guests. That's for sure. And people that are volunteering and wanting to be on episodes, and people that, you know I mean, they're giving out the most valuable thing, which is time for us to talk about some pretty serious things at times as well. So Ashlee [00:04:51]: Absolutely. But, yeah, let's let's circle back. Let's start with the peer support stuff because Okay. Oh my gosh. I feel like my acids are so bad today. I'm sorry, everybody. Dang Invisalign. Jennifer [00:05:00]: I think you noticed more than anybody else, Ashlee. Ashlee [00:05:03]: Oh, I can see. I'm sitting here like, oh, boy. We did get a few messages about peer support and our thoughts on peer support. And I think that we have to be mindful because we're not. Like, we're Exactly. Connections. Right? So, like, I wanna put that out there. We are not peer support isn't necessarily our bread and butter. Ashlee [00:05:23]: I will say that it is something that I am most recently really diving into and having this incredible opportunity to look at different policies that have been created and different things that are being implemented throughout different departments. And everyone does it a little bit differently. I am a fan of peer support. That's a Absolutely. Fans of it. Of course, I am. Because as clinicians, we know that the number one thing we can do after a traumatic event, right, to help the brain start to process is to talk, and that's not always with us. I always say in my trainings, like, look to the person next to you and just start a conversation, and you're helping yourself. Ashlee [00:06:00]: So I do know that peer support is incredibly important, but I also recognize that with that comes a lot of hurdles and challenges for these departments. So, Jennifer, I don't know if you can speak a little bit about, like, your perspective on peer support or maybe even take it back a little bit. I think I jumped ahead of what peer support looks like sometimes for Jennifer [00:06:21]: people. Performance. Well, I appreciate what you're saying because the most important thing and something I always let any client that unless I have a therapist that's a client, is that I have no clue what it's like to do your job, and that is very true of first responders. I do not know what it's like to do a dispatcher, a police officer, a firefighter, a paramedic. Like, I have no background in that. And I think the peer piece is that when you get to talk to people who know the job, I think that that is the peer part. You know? I was at a meeting, with firefighters, and they're talking about the truck. And, man, that thing is awesome, and I have no clue. Jennifer [00:07:05]: And, like, they're explaining it to me. And, yeah, I have two firefighters together, and they they have their own shorthand and know that language. And so I think that's the the important part of peer support is just somebody that knows what it's like. I think and, you know, I wish we maybe had a little bit of a family therapist here to talk about systems and family systems and, you know, in departments, in firehouses, in dispatch rooms, you know, there are dynamics that show up. And sometimes those dynamics can really impact a peer support team. And so, unfortunately, I'm talking about a negative impact where, you know, there's somebody there that maybe didn't show up as a peer with the best support Ashlee [00:07:54]: Yep. Jennifer [00:07:54]: Or they showed up as a peer only representing the agency and not representing maybe what ends in the best needs. And, you know, I wanna give credit to the peers because that's a fine line to walk. Right? Like, you have to think about the whole at times and not just think about the individual. And so I think those are some hurdles or some hang ups that can happen with peer support. And so I think the most important thing in this is Ashlee [00:08:25]: where Jennifer [00:08:25]: do you feel like you can trust somebody? Ashlee [00:08:28]: Yeah. I was just about to say. Jennifer [00:08:29]: Okay. You go with that then. Ashlee [00:08:31]: Well well, because right? Like and I don't mean we will make sure to spin this because there's so many beautiful positives too, But there is truth to that. I think what I see mostly or what I hear in my office or even just the trainings that I do and talking to other first responders is, like, trust is huge, and yet there's such distrust within departments sometimes Jennifer [00:08:55]: that Ashlee [00:08:55]: people are like, no way am I gonna go talk to somebody that I know and give them everything because then the rumor mill is going to start or they're gonna break confidentiality, and they are going to say everything I told them, and people are really skeptical of that. However, right, like, that is where we need to push as clinicians for these departments to make sure that they are doing everything they can for a strong peer support team because that didn't happen. Jennifer [00:09:23]: Well and I think the again, you know, to definitely promote you in your business. But I think, you know, this partnership with a mental health professional and a peer system or peer support system is so ideal because, again, you know, to have the training about the importance of confidentiality, how do we active listen? How do we do these things and approach in a way that's nonjudgmental or advice giving or, you know, those things and support that peer system to offer that to people that are struggling and building that trust. You know, I think that that's a great kind of thing. And, obviously, that's a very biased opinion to say, oh, you know, a mental health professional along with a peer support team would be great. And I don't even think it has to necessarily be that, but I think that's a good example of how that can be really healthy. And and, you know, this is just from the perspective of hearing about unfortunate events that happen with peer teams. This is not us coming for peer teams at all. They're a beautiful grassroots organic way to support your team. Jennifer [00:10:35]: It's just we wanna make sure that those are healthy places. Ashlee [00:10:39]: Yeah. So I'm gonna I am gonna give a little bit of a plug here. And, again, I don't know everything. I work in the state of Wisconsin, and so every state kinda does things differently. One thing that I will say is that I have been blessed to work with departments, one in particular who has done a phenomenal job of building a strong peer support team. Like, I look to them and I'm like, man. Like but it took them a long time to get there. And not only that, they are very, very strict with it. Ashlee [00:11:06]: And so in this world that I run-in in Wisconsin, right, like, in order to have a peer support team be effective, they do require a mental health professional to be there. So I think a lot of people have heard of, like, CISM training. Jennifer [00:11:22]: Mhmm. Ashlee [00:11:22]: Right? When we run our debriefs and you have to get trained in that, like, you you have to have a mental health professional for that. And that's for a reason. Right? We have you guys, like, peer support. There's a fine line between being someone's peer and being someone's therapist, and that line can get blurred really, really quick. And that's why we encourage, obviously, a lot of departments, if they can, to find that mental health professional to help with this, because there's you don't wanna cross that line nor should you because you're up here, and that's the purpose of it. Right? And so it is so important to, not only that, but, like, vet your therapist. Introduce them. Yes. Ashlee [00:12:01]: Like, I got interrogated when I tell you that I got three people in my office at one time shooting questions off at me to see if I was good enough to be a therapist for these police departments around here, that's what happened. Right? And every single time someone new discovers me, they send a few of their people that come do the same thing, and I and I love it. But that your therapist but, yeah, you have I I do think, like, in order to have that successful, like, broad spectrum, if you want something huge, you have to network and you have to make those connections because it is hard to manage, I think, like, peer support on its own without being like, okay. Now where do I send these people for resources if it gets Jennifer [00:12:42]: there? Right. Ashlee [00:12:44]: Right? Jennifer [00:12:45]: Absolutely. And I think that, you know, it's this kind of triage level as well too and knowing the difference of that. You know, there is somebody that is just going through some growing pains with their career or having just a little bit of a stressful situation at home, they can go speak to a peer and, like, done and dusted, like, things are good. And then there's other times where it's it's a crisis. You know? And sadly, it's a crisis. Like, they need to go to a hospital and because they're not safe. Like, I I mean, there's this level of of need, and all of those things need different supports

Hosts: - Dr. Ashlee Gethner DSW, LCSW: Licensed Clinical Professional, child of a police officer - Jennifer Woosley Saylor LPCC S: Licensed Clinical Professional, child of a police officer Guest: - Breanna, Nurse, New Mom, and Wife of a Firefighter/Paramedic In this heartfelt episode of "When The Call Hits Home," Ashlee and Jennifer sit down with Breanna, a dedicated nurse and new mom navigating the intricacies of life married to a firefighter/paramedic. Ashlee describes Breanna as her unofficial "little sister," showcasing the deep connection they've shared since growing up together. Key Discussion Points: Introduction to Breanna: Breanna shares her background, her journey being married to a firefighter/paramedic for over a decade, and her experience as a new mom to a seven-month-old. Meeting Her Husband: A charming story of how Breanna and her husband met through mutual friends in high school, overcoming initial failed matchmaking attempts. Life with a First Responder: Breanna discusses the challenges of adapting to the unpredictable schedule of a first responder and how she found ways to fill her time with self-care and new routines. Parenting as a Team: The couple’s approach to supporting each other while managing the demands of parenthood and first responder schedules. Community and Support: The importance of building a community, finding friends who understand the unique lifestyle, and communicating effectively within a first responder marriage. Valuable Advice for New Moms: Breanna provides insights into managing expectations, the significance of communication, and the necessity of having a supportive network. Breanna's Journey in the NICU: Reflecting on her experiences as a NICU nurse and how it shaped her perspective as a new mom, balancing professional knowledge with personal anxieties. Life Lessons and Resilience: Insightful takeaways about resilience, finding joy in day-to-day life, and embracing the unique lifestyle that comes with being part of the first responder community. If this episode resonated with you or if you have stories to share about living with a first responder, reach out to Ashlee and Jennifer on their social media platforms. Don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast! Thank you for tuning in! Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review "When The Call Hits Home" on your favorite podcast platforms! Follow Us: - Facebook: When The Call Hits Home Podcast - Instagram: @whenthecallhitshome - Whenthecallhitshome.com #WhenTheCallHitsHome #Podcast #FirstResponderFamilies #MentalHealth --- This podcast does not contain medical / health advice. It is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment and should not be relied on as health or personal advice. The information contained in this podcast is for general information purposes only. The information is provided by Training Velocity LLC and while we endeavour to keep the information up to date and correct, we make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the Podcast or the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in the podcast for any purpose. Any reliance you place on such information is strictly at your own risk.  WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE NOR LIABLE FOR ANY ADVICE, COURSE OF TREATMENT, DIAGNOSIS OR ANY OTHER INFORMATION, SERVICES OR PRODUCTS THAT YOU OBTAIN THROUGH THIS PODCAST.  Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment and before undertaking a new health care regimen, and never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast.

Jennifer [00:00:06]: Hi. I'm Jennifer Woosley Saylor. I'm a licensed professional clinical counselor and the kid of a cop, and this is the podcast when the call hits home. Ashlee [00:00:14]: Hey, everyone. It's Ashlee Gethner. I'm a licensed clinical social worker, and I'm also a child of a police officer. Jennifer [00:00:21]: Hi. Welcome back to the podcast When the Call Hits Home. I'm Jennifer. Ashlee [00:00:26]: And I'm Ashlee. And today, I have my little sister on. Well, she's not, like, biologically my little sister, but she's definitely my little sister. Like, there's no there's no difference in life here. So I'm super excited. We grew up together. We grew up in a little small town together called Belvedere, Illinois. And if you don't know what that is, that's exactly why. Ashlee [00:00:45]: Cows and corn. So if you can imagine, we had to come up with a lot of different things to keep ourselves busy. We got into a lot of trouble together. I don't know. My best memories are with Bree. So I'm gonna hand it over to her now to introduce herself and, I guess, teach you all a little bit about her. So go ahead, Bree. Breanna [00:01:01]: Hi. I'm Bree. Thank you so much, Ashlee and Jennifer, for having me on. I really appreciate it. You guys do awesome work, and we enjoy listening to your podcast, so I appreciate it. I grew up with Ashlee for a long time. She's like my big sister that I never had. We do have a lot of fun memories together. Breanna [00:01:18]: I am married to a firefighter paramedic. We've been together a little over ten years now, and I'm also a nurse. I worked in the neonatal intensive care unit, and we just had our first baby, like, seven months ago. So I'm currently staying home with him, which I enjoy very much. Ashlee [00:01:36]: It's a hard job. It's a hard job, though. Breanna [00:01:38]: It is a very hard job. It's never ending job. Ashlee [00:01:43]: Yeah. Right? For sure. Absolutely. Jennifer [00:01:46]: Well, congratulations on a new baby. And I was saying before we hit record, like, you're one of the people that know Ashlee the longest, so I want all the stories on her. But we'll talk a little bit more about being a new mom, a nurse, a married to a first responder today. So you guys have been together for ten years. How'd you guys meet? Breanna [00:02:09]: So we met when I was in high school. We actually went to the same high school, but we never saw each other. He is a little older than me, and he did, like, a dual program thing. So he was only at the high school for, like, a couple hours, and then he went to the college and did classes. Jennifer [00:02:24]: Mhmm. Breanna [00:02:25]: And we met through mutual friends. And, actually, it's kinda funny because, like, my friend group was trying to set him up with one of our friends, and my husband was trying to, like, set me up with one of his friends. So, like, we really weren't interested in each other, and we were, like, trying to set each other up. That did not work, obviously. And now we've been together for, yeah, a little over ten years. Jennifer [00:02:49]: That sounds like a really cute movie script that you actually write. That's pretty adorable. Breanna [00:02:53]: I mean, Ashlee [00:02:54]: it's really It's super adorable. Like, I feel like this could really, really pan out. This will be our next project. No. It's gonna be Jennifer [00:03:00]: like, like, filming a movie. Ashlee [00:03:02]: But I cannot you were, like, ten years, and I'm like, holy moly. Like, time goes so fast. I can't really believe that, and that is so fair. Do you feel like I know that there's no way to absolutely always prepare yourself for things in life, but, I mean, I guess growing up, were you ever interested in first responders? Like, I don't know. Some people are always, like, yes. I like those firemen. Or how did you prepare? Were you prepared to be married to a Breanna [00:03:25]: a firefighter? So I grew up I did not have any first responders in our family. Like, I didn't really know anything about it or anything about them or the field or career. I was I didn't wanna be a nurse either when I was, like, in high school. My mom actually went to nursing school probably when I was, like, in middle school or so. I'm not a % sure. But and she kind of, like, inspired me to become a nurse and kinda, like, went down that career path. And I like, we were we're, like, really the only two nurses, and now I have a bunch of people in the family of, you know, primary paramedic, nurses, all kinds of things. I was not prepared at all for being in a relationship with a first responder. Breanna [00:04:12]: I didn't know what that was like or what that I didn't know anything about it. When we first got together, we kinda lived a little ways away from each other, so, like, I would only see him on the weekends. And he he's always been he's been doing it since we met, so it was like a whole new life, a whole new world for me. I would typically only see him, like, on the weekends. And at that time, he was on the fire department where he could, like, during the day, he had to be at the firehouse, but, like, at night, he could respond from home, which was nice and it wasn't because I would drive to come see him, and it never fails. Like, I would get there and he would have to leave. And, like, it took a couple hours for him to, like, come back home. And, you know, then it was like, well, I have to go home now or whatever. Breanna [00:05:01]: It was really hard for me at first and it really it was a learning curve. Like, I had to learn Yeah. Adjustment for sure. Yeah. Definitely. You know, like, I got upset a lot or not really mad at him because, like, I you know, I knew, obviously, he had to go. But it was like, oh, I really wanna spend time with you and now we can't. And, you know, now I won't see you for another couple weeks or whatever. Breanna [00:05:26]: So that was hard. But then we we moved in together a couple years later, and I I think that was, like, the hardest transit transition because I grew up in a family. I have two younger siblings too. Like, there was always people at home, always things going on. And then I, you know, we move in together and live together, and he's gone all the time. Like, he you know, like and if we do have time together, like, he can leave any second. So, you know, I was, like, I was very lonely and, like, didn't really I didn't know anybody really in this town that we lived in. I was, you know, I wasn't close lived close to my family. Breanna [00:06:08]: So it was just like a big it was a very big adjustment for me to go from, you know, everybody around all the time to, like, just me. Jennifer [00:06:17]: I appreciate you being so honest about that. And you kinda went ahead and answered my next follow-up question. So thank you for, like, sharing all that stuff. But I appreciate what you said there so beautifully in terms of, like, I was frustrated. I wasn't frustrated with him. But to travel all this way, to make plans, and as usual, the plans change, you know, that is a frustrating thing. And I think sometimes it can be a hard dynamic in first responder relationships to say, I'm not mad at my first responder, but I am frustrated. And I think sometimes there's not always space for both of those. Jennifer [00:06:57]: That if you're frustrated, well, you're frustrated with your first responder, and and that's not fair. Or the opposite, you know, well, I just can't be frustrated. And so then, you know, a person can just kinda push those feelings away. And so I think you said that beautifully of, like, hey. This was my feeling, but, you know, I recognize obviously that he didn't have any control over that and and understood it. And I appreciate you also too just acknowledging, like, hey. It was really lonely that time when we first moved in and, you know, him not being there. I think that's an experience I often hear in that first years of marriage or first year of living together with first responders. Breanna [00:07:40]: Yeah. And I think too so I'm a nurse, and, like, I we kinda he went through paramedic school at the same time I was kinda going through nursing school. Okay. So it was also kind of nice at the same time because we were both busy. We were both, like, studying. And, I mean, we could, like, help each other in a way too because, you know, like, it's kinda both in the it's in the medical field. Yeah. Jennifer [00:08:05]: Yeah. They overlap some Breanna [00:08:07]: for sure. Yeah. Yeah. We could, like, study and stuff together. Like, after I got my nursing license and stuff, I worked night shift. So it was kinda nice because I worked the same shifts that he did. Mhmm. So we would both come home. Breanna [00:08:23]: And, I mean, I worked nights, so I was tired and, you know, he was up all night or whatever, and he would be tired too. So, like, it was nice because we'd both come home and go to sleep or, you know, take a nap or whatever. So that was kinda nice. And I also kind of learned, like, when he's gone for twenty four hours, like, those are my days to, like, do stuff for me. Like, I would try and, like, you know, I could sit on the couch and watch TV in my pajamas all day, nobody would know. Or I could go shopping or hang out with friends or, you know, do whatever. So I tried to, like, do things so I wasn't, you know, so lonely and, you know, like, it was just a big adjustment, so I had to learn how to do things myself. Ashlee [00:09:10]: I actually really love this because I don't know that we've ever stopped to talk about, like, what does it look like for self care for that spouse? Jennifer [00:09:18]: Mhmm. Breanna [00:09:19]: You know Jennifer [00:09:19]: what I mean? Talked about that. Ashlee [00:09:21]: Right. And I think that you just described that perfectly. Like, I do think that people either let that consume them or your resiliency right now is like, no. Okay. I'm gonna how do I work with this? Right? If this is our life now and neither of us can can control it to a degree. Right? Like, how do I take care of myself then within these twenty four hours so that when he does come home or we are a family again, hopefully, it's a good, you know, like, a good time. Like and if we're not pouring into ourselves, that can be really, really hard to do. So I feel like I hear you saying, I took the time to recognize, like, you know what? He's working. Ashlee [00:09:58]: I miss him, and I gotta do me a little bit too. I gotta Jennifer [00:10:02]: go home. Still fill this time. I can still fill instead of sitting in those feelings, I can do things to adjust that. Yeah. Breanna [00:10:09]: Right. Right. Yeah. Like you guys said, I mean, it's my life now. So, like, I have to, you know, adjust to it and learn. And, yeah, that helped me. And then I also, like, became good friends with one of the other wives of Okay. Somebody on the department. Breanna [00:10:28]: And that was very nice because people don't know what it's like until you're living in it. Absolutely. I can tell somebody a hundred times, like, you know, it's try and explain it and nobody truly gets it until you're in it. And so it was just nice to have somebody that I could talk to. Like, our husbands were both on the same shift, so they were working the same day. So, like, we would also, like, get together and do stuff because, you know, they were gone. So we would hang out. And it was just nice because it was somebody to talk to also who, like, got the situation that you were in as well. Jennifer [00:11:07]: Yeah. Yeah. And it's nice when you're not having to explain things. Right? Like, you know Right. Husband wanted to be here at this party, but he got called away. And, you know, that you don't have to explain your situation to somebody. That's always Breanna [00:11:23]: Yes. I get all the time, like, oh, like, where's he at? Like, you know, we haven't seen him in a while. You know? And I'm like I mean, he feels just as bad. Like, you know, of course, nobody wants to, like, miss anything, but, like, that's just you know, it's life. Like, that's what we have to do. It's just we we work around things. Like, you know, our son was born and my husband worked, like, Christmas and Thanksgiving, like, all the major holidays. Mhmm. Breanna [00:11:51]: First first holidays. And, you know, like, it sucks, but, like, we try and celebrate other days. You know? Like, it doesn't have to be that specific day that we need to celebrate. This year, we, like, had a huge family gathering the week before Christmas, and, like, we all got to get together and stuff. So, like, you know, we still celebrate. You know? We just kinda gotta, like, learn how to adjust and do different things. Jennifer [00:12:17]: Well, I think that's a beautiful way to say, like, we're prioritizing this family time, but we get to make it on our terms too. Instead of it just like, well, we missed Christmas, so we didn't have Christmas. Well, no. We still celebrated. We just did it for our family in that way. That's beautiful. Right. Ashlee [00:12:35]: So you already brought him up, but there is a precious little baby that has entered this world. He's the cutest little guy. And Jennifer [00:12:42]: He's adorable. Ashlee [00:12:43]: Thing that we have kinda talked about, right, is, like, Jennifer and I were talking about it. I'm like, we haven't really had anyone on here yet who really has, like, really literally firsthand experience. What it is like navigating a newborn, like, becoming parents for the first time and then having a spouse as a firefighter. Right? And so, obviously, to which you're comfortable here, but just kind of wondering how to becoming a mom kinda change, like, your dynamic a little bit, or what what is that experience been like for you? Breanna [00:13:17]: Yeah. So I think before we had our son, it was like, you know, like I said, like, I could take me ti

Hosts: - Dr. Ashlee Gethner DSW, LCSW: Licensed Clinical Professional, child of a police officer - Jennifer Woosley Saylor LPCC S: Licensed Clinical Professional, child of a police officer In this episode of "When The Call Hits Home," hosts Ashlee and Jennifer, explore the unique challenges faced by first responders seeking therapy. They discuss the importance of finding the right therapist, understanding the cultural nuances of the first responder community, and maintaining confidentiality. With humor and candid honesty, they address the stigmas and barriers to seeking mental health support in this high-stress profession. Key Topics Discussed: The Unique Dynamics of Therapy for First Responders: The hosts delve into the challenges first responders face when seeking therapy, emphasizing the importance of a therapist who understands their culture and the sometimes dark humor in this community. Finding the Right Therapist: The process of finding a good therapist is likened to dating, highlighting the importance of comfort, safety, and sharing a bit of one's own background to build trust. Challenges Faced by Therapists: The hosts share stories of therapists who have been overwhelmed by the intensity of first responder experiences, stressing the need for therapists to be well-prepared and resilient. Confidentiality Concerns: They discuss the crucial aspect of confidentiality in therapy, especially for first responders, and the steps taken to ensure privacy and protection of personal information. Organizational Support and Barriers: Ashlee shares initiatives in Wisconsin to offer privilege to peer support members, aiming to provide better mental health resources and reduce stigma. Cultural Competence and Organizational Dynamics: The hosts touch on issues like infidelity within departments and how therapists must navigate complex interpersonal dynamics. Advice for First Responders Seeking Therapy: Tips for finding a seasoned and flexible therapist, understanding personal needs in therapy, and encouraging family involvement in the therapeutic process. Takeaway Message: The hosts emphasize the significance of competent mental health services for first responders and the positive impact on their well-being and job performance. They advocate for inclusivity, cultural competence in therapy, and reducing stigma to improve access to mental health support. Thank you for tuning in! Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review "When The Call Hits Home" on your favorite podcast platforms! Follow Us: - Facebook: When The Call Hits Home Podcast - Instagram: @whenthecallhitshome - Whenthecallhitshome.com #WhenTheCallHitsHome #Podcast #FirstResponderFamilies #MentalHealth --- This podcast does not contain medical / health advice. It is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment and should not be relied on as health or personal advice. The information contained in this podcast is for general information purposes only. The information is provided by Training Velocity LLC and while we endeavour to keep the information up to date and correct, we make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the Podcast or the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in the podcast for any purpose. Any reliance you place on such information is strictly at your own risk.  WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE NOR LIABLE FOR ANY ADVICE, COURSE OF TREATMENT, DIAGNOSIS OR ANY OTHER INFORMATION, SERVICES OR PRODUCTS THAT YOU OBTAIN THROUGH THIS PODCAST.  Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment and before undertaking a new health care regimen, and never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast.

Jennifer [00:00:07]: Hi. I'm Jennifer Woosley Sailor. I'm a licensed professional clinical counselor and the kid of a cop. And this is the podcast when the call hits home. Hey, everyone. It's Ashlee Gethner. Ashlee [00:00:18]: I'm a licensed clinical social worker, and I'm also a child of a police officer. Jennifer [00:00:23]: Hi, and welcome back to the podcast. I'm Jennifer. Ashlee [00:00:27]: And I'm Ashlee. And before we get started today, I have to call this out. I may sound a little different. I know I put it on our socials, but I did get Invisalign. So I'm working on these teeth, and sometimes my speech is a little a little off, but we're gonna give it a go today. And, hopefully, it's not too bad because Jennifer [00:00:47]: I can't get it. Bad at all, but everybody, she really wanted to get it out there that she thinks she sounds funny. I think she sounds wonderful as well. Ashlee [00:00:56]: Had a firefighter call me Daffy Duck. So so I feel as though I have to call myself out before Jennifer [00:01:04]: Right. Before they call you out? Ashlee [00:01:07]: Yeah. What what is that with these firemen? They think they can just Jennifer [00:01:11]: Oh, the first responders, they won't let you get by with anything, will they? Ashlee [00:01:14]: No. We're well, I just said this. Dedicating our lives to this, and here we are. Jennifer [00:01:20]: And then they're calling you Daffy Duck. Yeah. Ashlee [00:01:22]: And I love it because if they weren't picking on me, you might be in a little bit more trouble. Jennifer [00:01:28]: Exactly. It's definitely a a sign of love in the first responder world if you're getting teased. Ashlee [00:01:34]: Oh, I just wanted this leads perfectly into what we wanted to discuss today because we were making some videos, doing our little marketing stuff together, and we realized that while, yes, we are very heavy on what it's like to be a child of first responder, we don't want that to go anywhere. That's still our main Jennifer [00:01:50]: thing here. We'll be here forever Ashlee [00:01:52]: with that. Jennifer [00:01:53]: Yes. Right? Ashlee [00:01:54]: We also recognize that we haven't really tapped into much, I guess, on the clinical side. And I was venting, I'm gonna put that out there, venting respectfully about other kind of clinicians and how they've approached maybe this first responder world because there's not there's not much of us. I wouldn't say No. Jennifer [00:02:16]: There's not. Yeah. I mean, I think it's a very small group. I'm I'm trying to think, like, back home in here. Yeah. I mean, it's just not a big, huge group. Ashlee [00:02:28]: I think that you and I are blessed because we back where we work together, right, like, of course, our group is specific for first responders. Jennifer [00:02:38]: Right. Ashlee [00:02:38]: So we're kinda lucky that we're surrounded by but even then, what is that? Like, 10 clinicians altogether? 10 to 12? Jennifer [00:02:45]: Yeah. I mean, it's not a big group, and that's pulling from an entire state. And, you know, I'm out of state, and you're out of state with that too. So that's not even, I guess, in the state. Yeah. So yeah. I mean, that's a good point as well. And I just think it's important, you know, when talking about this, there's just a lot that goes into having a therapist. Jennifer [00:03:09]: I think I'll start with a little bit of it's like dating and who wants to do that. But, you know, finding a good therapist, like, it's not just the first therapist you walk in an office with that may be not be a fit. And then, I guess, talk a little bit about the the qualification and competency of a first responder therapist? Like, what's a little bit from the clinical side is important with that? Ashlee [00:03:36]: Yeah. Do you want me to answer that right now? Look at you throwing it. You're like, let's go. Jennifer [00:03:40]: You said we're doing questions. Ashlee [00:03:41]: I know we are. Sorry. Yeah. Well, the first thing that I do kinda wanna say just because we have listeners on here is that we can't obviously, we're not your therapist. So, like, while we're giving you this education and we want you guys to take it, please don't come back to us in a little bit here. Like, we would love to take on everybody, though. That's for sure. I'm just saying, obviously, it's a little caveat. Ashlee [00:04:02]: We have to put that out there that in this role, we can't be everything for everybody, and so we just hope you take this as education. But I think that there is I think there's a lot of barriers, and I think there's a lot of things that in order for a therapist to be competent is that rude? Was that Jennifer [00:04:21]: I don't think that's rude. Ashlee [00:04:22]: In first responders, there are, like, vast differences. And I know in one of the little videos we just posted, we kinda gave a hint to what we're talking about today. Right? Is that culturally aware of what it is like to be a first responder, I think, is so important. So let's take what I just started with. Right? It's such a little example, but the humor Mhmm. The dark humor, the pick on you behaviors that we get from our first responders, is there is there love language almost. Right? Jennifer [00:04:53]: Mhmm. Ashlee [00:04:54]: And while you and I like, to me, that's second nature. Like, my dad my dad Right. You know what I mean? Makes fun of me all day every day. So I definitely think that, like, it to me, I'm so used to it, and I I do love it. I love to also give it back to them. I think what's fair. But I can recognize how quickly, like, a different therapist may not understand that. Jennifer [00:05:18]: And some not understand it Ashlee [00:05:19]: at all. With are really bad. Right? Like, really dark stuff. Jennifer [00:05:23]: Mhmm. A gallows humor is what I've been told by first responders. And I think that it's interesting because from my perspective hearing that and how I feel with clients, it's like rapport building. Right? Like, it's, you know, this putting people at ease. Like, I need to know that you're safe, so I gotta make fun of you a little bit and see if I can rib you and if that's okay. And I think for some clinicians, you know, they just don't have that ability to kinda be in a little bit of that gray spot. Yeah. And so I think that that's a good example of the difference of that for sure. Jennifer [00:05:59]: Do you I mean, I have some horror stories that I've heard of first responders going to therapist. One in particular I can think of is, you know, a first responder going to a therapist sharing their experience, and the therapist, you know, become physically like, have an emotional response, and the first responder seeing that. And the session ended up with the first responder making the therapist feel at ease about the situation. And that, sadly, I don't think that's that's just one of many of those kind of stories. Ashlee [00:06:38]: Yes. I have heard a lot of that before too. And I think what's what's important if you're a therapist wanting to work with first responders, right, is recognizing one, and we can kinda go back to this if you would like to, but, like, their trauma is vastly not that all trauma is very important. Right? Like, traumatic situations and things like that, and it's bad per person. I'm not trying to say anything like that. But for some therapists, the amount of trauma and the type of trauma is incredibly hard for them to digest. Jennifer [00:07:09]: Mhmm. Ashlee [00:07:09]: Right? And if you are not prepared to take on that, it really can leave a therapist probably, just like you're saying in that example Right. Overwhelmed, having an emotional response. I think we also tend to forget that our first responders, this is what they work for Jennifer [00:07:24]: is to protect them. Exactly. Ashlee [00:07:27]: And the minute as a therapist you show them, like, that you can't handle it, they do go into work mode. How do I fix this? Sorry. I have to stop there because I hear that from every first responder. How do I fix it? Right? But how do I fix this? And I wanna fix it with you. I don't want I don't want you to be exposed to the things that I'm exposed to. I've heard that a million times before too. Jennifer [00:07:54]: I have heard that as well. That's a good reminder. I haven't heard that one in a while, but I definitely have heard this idea of why would I want to traumatize somebody else with the trauma, which is, you know, what I love about our first responders. They wanna protect people in so many ways and even to this to, you know, this act of I would be a burden to kinda unload on a therapist, all that I've seen. And recognizing that there are, you know, competent therapists that have their skills and their ability to hear that and not take it on, which is, I think, what you're looking for in a therapist that can respond to first responders. Ashlee [00:08:33]: Yeah. Absolutely. And I it's one of those things too. Right? Like, how do you how do we get actually, I'll throw this question to you, if you don't mind. Okay. Right? Because my brain's going with it. And while we were just talking there, I pulled up. So everybody knows that I try to take on the world. Ashlee [00:08:50]: I don't hide that. So I'll queue you in on this little course that I've been trying to create for therapists. So I pulled that up because I was like, you know what? Let me make sure I'm hitting on some of these things that I have already put down on a paper and think are incredibly important. But, like, when you look at a first responder and we're talking about trauma, we're talking about all these different things, like, how do you, as a therapist, Jennifer, make them feel comfortable in your office then? Jennifer [00:09:18]: That's a good question. I think what I start with is just being really open and honest. It's interesting with first responders. I think they need a lot of background about who I am, where I come from. I can't just be a complete stranger, though I am. So I think that that's a piece of letting them know a little bit about who I am, I think, is a start. But I also, you know, go back to it's such a exercise in trust. Yep. Jennifer [00:09:53]: You know, I I give a background in in things like that. I think that's a way in which I offer that. I acknowledge you know, the first time I'm gonna meet somebody, I'm gonna ask you a thousand questions, and that's just, you know, just trying to see how I can best serve you and, you know, also give the option of, like, if there's a question you don't wanna answer. I think sometimes it's nice to create a space of, like, you get to drive the ship a little bit here. And I think for first responders, especially with maybe having a little bit of control, this is something outside of our comfort zone so much, just giving them a little piece of that. You know, nowadays, I get to say that I've worked with first responders for a long time, and so that I think buys me a little bit of credit. But previously to that, you know, it I didn't have that initially. And so it is something that you're just trying to offer control. Jennifer [00:10:48]: And I also think I've been doing it long enough, and I've been interrogated by enough I was just about to say. Yeah. I have been interrogated by enough first responders, and I think that they can say that, like, that doesn't scare me or bother me. Like, I I recognize, like, they need that, and I respect that. And whatever questions you have, and if you wanna see every single note I write, whatever that is to make you feel safe and comfortable, I'm willing to accommodate that. Because this is, again, like I said in our little video, like, therapy is a hard thing. It's not an easy thing. And so whatever I can do to offer some levels of comfort with that, I would. Ashlee [00:11:30]: Yeah. No. I love that so much, and it is true. I've had that happen to me too. I do think there's some testing that some of our first responders will do, which I think is fair. Right? Like, I recognize when it's happening. But But if you're a therapist who doesn't work with first responders, right, that can be kind of intimidating, and it's important for people to recognize that. But it's also important, I think, for our listeners who may be clinicians, who may be first responders, children, what have you, right, to know that it is your right to do that, though, too. Jennifer [00:12:00]: Exactly. And then I think that's why I go back. It's, you know, such a silly acknowledging about, you know, finding a therapist, kinda like dating. But I I say this to all my clients as well. Like, I hope, you know, it works out and and that I'm a good fit for you. But, you know, therapists are kinda like shoes, and sometimes you have to try on a couple pairs. You know, there's that pair that, oh my gosh, they look great. They're so awesome, but they rub blisters. Jennifer [00:12:27]: And then there's that pair that is way too loose, and it's just, you know, doesn't fit. And, you know, there can be that funky pair, but it fits just perfect. You know, you kinda have to see if that fit. And listen. You know, trust your gut. If it doesn't feel like a good fit, that's okay. It's not about the therapist's feelings about you because this space is about you. Ashlee [00:12:52]: Yeah. Absolutely. I think that's so fair too. I think that's something that I've always stressed. And this may be a little thing, but to some people, it's a pretty big one too. Right? Working with first responders is, like, I do have some first responders that come right when they get off shift or what have you. And so weapons are a are a thing. Right?

Hosts: - Dr. Ashlee Gethner DSW, LCSW: Licensed Clinical Professional, child of a police officer - Jennifer Woosley Saylor LPCC S: Licensed Clinical Professional, child of a police officer Key Topics Discussed: Listener Feedback: Many listeners reached out expressing they learned from episodes on moral injury and foundations supporting first responders. The value of sharing stories and bringing awareness to lesser-known aspects of first responder experiences. Supporting First Responders During Crises: Ashlee shares about community efforts to support firefighters during wildfires, highlighting a story about providing Monster Energy drinks instead of just water, as it was more appreciated. Health and Well-being of First Responders: Discussion on the physical demands of first responder roles and reliance on caffeine and stimulants. Balance between meeting immediate needs during long shifts and long-term health concerns. Mindfulness and Stress Management: The importance of integrating small, intentional mindfulness practices into daily life. Engaging in simple activities with family to achieve mindfulness and stress relief. Personal Stories and Reflections: Ashlee reflects on her father's experience as a first responder, discussing the long-term health implications of the job's stress. The discussion extends to the broader impact on life expectancy and quality of life for first responders post-retirement. Open Invitation for Stories: Jennifer and Ashlee encourage listeners, especially children of first responders and first responders themselves, to share their stories and perspectives on the podcast. Conclusion: Jennifer and Ashlee express their gratitude for the listeners and their engagement. Encouragement for listeners to reach out with thoughts, feedback, or if they want to be featured as a guest. Acknowledgment of the podcast’s growing community and the hosts’ dedication to making change and offering support. Thank you for tuning in! Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review "When The Call Hits Home" on your favorite podcast platforms! Follow Us: - Facebook: When The Call Hits Home Podcast - Instagram: @whenthecallhitshome - Whenthecallhitshome.com #WhenTheCallHitsHome #Podcast #FirstResponderFamilies #MoralInjury #MentalHealth --- This podcast does not contain medical / health advice. It is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical or mental health advice, diagnosis or treatment and should not be relied on as health or personal advice. The information contained in this podcast is for general information purposes only. The information is provided by Training Velocity LLC and while we endeavour to keep the information up to date and correct, we make no representations or warranties of any kind, express or implied, about the completeness, accuracy, reliability, suitability or availability with respect to the Podcast or the information, products, services, or related graphics contained in the podcast for any purpose. Any reliance you place on such information is strictly at your own risk.  WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE NOR LIABLE FOR ANY ADVICE, COURSE OF TREATMENT, DIAGNOSIS OR ANY OTHER INFORMATION, SERVICES OR PRODUCTS THAT YOU OBTAIN THROUGH THIS PODCAST.  Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health care provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition or treatment and before undertaking a new health care regimen, and never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast.