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DC Comics Ep 498: Knight Terrors Week Seven, No Eric, No Rules & Drunk Jim / Weird Science DC Comics #knightterrors #dccomics #dccomicspodcast    **This Week's Patreon-Only DC Comics Spotlight was Hawkgirl #2 & Tales of the Titans #2   Keywords: DC Comics, Comics, Comic Books, Dawn of DC, Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Justice League Check out our Patreon Here: https://www.patreon.com/weirdscience All Weird Science Links: https://campsite.bio/weirdsciencecomics   0:00:00 - Intro 0:17:54 - Knight Terrors: Superman #2 0:45:42 - Knight Terrors: Wonder Woman #2 0:59:07 - Knight Terrors: Nightwing #2 1:20:34 - Mail 1:32:59 - Knight Terrors: Catwoman #2 1:51:47 - Knight Terrors: Punchline #2

What you'll learn in this episode:   The difference between jadeite and nephrite, and why both are known as jade Why Chinese artisans have chosen to carve jade for thousands of years Why jade can be purchased at dramatically different price points How to spot a pseudo jade that has been dyed or polymer treated Why a healthy sense of skepticism is the most important thing a new jade collector can have   About Eric Hoffman   Eric Hoffman is an aficionado of Chinese jades for over 40 years. He is the owner and operator of Far East Gallery, which is dedicated to lovers of Chinese arts, antiques, antiquities, and—most especially—jades and snuff bottles. A member of the worldwide organizations Friends of Jade and the Association for the Study of Jewelry and Related Arts, jade consultant to the Chinese Cultural Relics Association, and contributing editor to Adornment magazine, Prof. Hoffman has written many articles and reviews on this fascinating subject.   Additional Resources: Website Introductory Articles on Jade: http://hoffmanjade.com/Adornment_Jade.pdf https://asianart.com/articles/hoffman/index.html   Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com   Transcript: Jade is a popular gemstone that even the most avid jewelry collectors often know little about. Much of the confusion stems from the fact that two distinct stones share the same name. Enter Eric Hoffman, a jade dealer and author who is an expert on identifying different types of jade. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about jadeite jade vs. nephrite jade; why jade can either be extremely valuable or basically worthless; and how new collectors can find quality pieces. Read the episode transcript here.  Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today, my guest is Eric J. Hoffman, who's extremely knowledgeable about jade. Eric is the owner of Far East Gallery and HoffmanJade.com. He is a seller and a buyer, and he knows a lot about what makes jade valuable. He's also an author. Welcome back.    But you said there's a white jade that's a nephrite, and then there's another kind of white jade that's a jadeite, right?   Eric: That's right. When you're talking about white jade, it makes a big difference whether it's nephrite or jadeite. White nephrite is very desirable. White jadeite is kind of a waste material. In fact, it's often dyed or polymer-treated to make it look like something it's not.   Sharon: When you say something it's not, what do you mean? Is it to try and fool people? Why do carvers value white jade so much?   Eric: Again, you have to distinguish between the two types of white jade. The nephrite is desirable to carvers because it can be carved thin and it's not going to break on them while they're carving. The jadeite is generally valued for jewelry, and people don't want a white stone ring. They want the nice, imperial green, apple green jadeite. Back in the late 80s, around 1989, someone figured out how to polymer treat and dye white jadeite to make it look like the imperial green, desirable jadeite.   Sharon: Wow, there's a lot to learn when it comes to stone. The white nephrite that's called jade, when it comes to carving, it's harder to carve. Am I right?   Eric: All carving is hard, but at least the nephrite's not going to break on you. It's not going to crumble. It's not going to cleave like some minerals like fluorite, for example, might do. There are carvings in jadeite as well. It's a little less tough and a little bit harder.   Sharon: But jadeite is what was in Burma. Maybe I'm getting confused. I'm trying to keep it straight. When you talk about the Chinese, that's more of the nephrite jade, and when you talk about the Burmese, that's more of the jadeite, right?    Eric: In terms of where they come from, but there's not much of an industry in Burma carving jadeite. The jadeite comes out of the ground in Burma, and it goes immediately to China where it is made into jewelry and carvings and artifacts and so forth.   Sharon: I'm just getting confused. If somebody says to me, “This is a jade bracelet,” and it's green, what do I ask? Where it came from, or is it nephrite or jadeite? What do I ask?   Eric: The question would be is it nephrite or jadeite. The answer will probably come back that it's jadeite. When you see jade bangle bracelets, for example, they're usually but not always jadeite. Usually if it's a vivid apple green, it's probably jadeite. If it's a darker grayish green, it's probably nephrite.   Sharon: What if it's white? I'm thinking of a hand-made bangle. If they say it's white jade, is that just treated jadeite?   Eric: They would probably not stop at white. They would try to dye it or polymer treat it to try to fool you into thinking it's a more valuable type of jade.   Sharon: So, when somebody says to me, “This is jade,” they really mean jadeite, right? There's nephrite, but most things are jadeite. I'm just trying to understand this.   Eric: It's a complicated subject for sure. Most of the jewelry, but not all that you encounter, will be jadeite. There is nephrite jewelry, but it's probably 10 to one in favor of jadeite.   Sharon: When I was talking to Elyse, she was saying that most of the time the carvings are too large to be used for jewelry, as you were saying, but there are smaller things such as beads and things like that. Is that jade jadeite? Why are they made into small items?   Eric: Jade is found in small quantities, so that's one thing that limits the size. It's costly material, at least the higher grades of jadeite. That would be another thing that limits the size.    Sharon: What would icy jade be? Tell us about icy jade.   Eric: That's another interesting subject. When you're judging jadeite, you're looking at the color. You look at what's called the texture, which is the fineness of the individual, microscopic crystals. It affects the kind of polish the jade can take. You look at the clarity. You'd like to find jade that doesn't have inclusions or black spots in it. There's also something called translucence. As jade becomes more and more translucent, you get to where you can almost read text through it. That's called icy jade.   Sharon: Do you look at whether it's jade or icy jade? Do you look at it under a microscope to decide if you're going to buy it or judge it?   Eric: No, you can see right away that it's an example of icy jade, but it's fairly rare material. It didn't used to be worth anything particularly more than other jades until Christie's, some years ago in a marketing coup, changed the name from water jade to icy jade.   Sharon: Water jade to icy jade.   Eric: And it took off. In the many pieces I've handled over the decades, I only have one piece of icy jade.   Sharon: That's you've handled or that you would be willing to part with?   Eric: Both.    Sharon: Putting icy jade aside, when you evaluate a piece of jade, do you look under a microscope at all? Is that part of your process? I don't know what you look for.   Eric: Generally, no. Generally, a 10x loupe is about all you need to evaluate jade. For example, with a 10x loupe, you can look and see if dye is seeping into the little boundaries between regions on jadeite. The other instrument that is sometimes useful would be a refractometer, which is occasionally brought into play to distinguish between a nephrite and a jadeite.   Sharon: Somebody brought my mother a gift back from China, and she said it was jade. Would that have been an imitation jade? I don't know what she paid for it. I don't remember. Was it a jade jadeite versus—I mean, nephrite doesn't sound like it's in the picture.   Eric: It could have been any one of those. There are some fairly simple tests of hardness and specific gravity and so forth that you can run to tell what you're looking at.   Sharon: As a collector and, as you can tell very obviously, somebody who knows nothing about jade or nephrite or Mawsitsit or icy jade, what would you say to a collector just starting out? What should they look for? What should they have with them? I got rid of my refractometer a long time ago. I said, “Forget it. I never use it.” What would they do with it?   Eric: The one thing you should always have with you is a 10x loupe. The other thing you should always have with you is a healthy sense of skepticism. I assume that any ancient jade I'm shown is a brand-new fake until proven otherwise. When you're shown a gorgeous piece of jade jewelry, you should be a little skeptical as to whether it's natural or has been treated in some way.   Sharon: Treated meaning coated with color to make it look a different color or a stronger color?   Eric: There have been examples of coating, but I was really referring to was what started back in 1989, with the polymer treatment of pretty much worthless white jadeite.   Sharon: How would I know? How would a collector know?   Eric: It's a problem. At a certain price level, you would go to the GIA. They would look at your piece with an infrared spectrometer and tell you yes or no, whether it's natural or colored or had been treated. But this test, of course, costs a few hundred dollars, so you're probably up in the $20,000-$30,000 price range before it becomes worthwhile doing that.    Sharon: If you're buying a less expensive piece that's not a $20,000 piece, what would you say a collector should look for? Should we look for translucency? If they tell me something is old, how do I know?   Eric: If you don't have a $100,000 spectrometer laying around in your basement, you should probably look for a dealer you can trust who does have access to one, either directly or through a lab like GIA.   Sharon: I can tell you're on the East Coast if you say a basement, because who knows what a basement is out here? In fact, I did see a house with a basement, and I was floored. I thought a house with a basement in Los Angeles—   Eric: No basements in Los Angeles?   Sharon: No basements out here, or maybe just a few old, old houses. So, what attracts you? Do you like the color of the jade you buy? Whatever you put on your site, do you like it?   Eric: Yes, the colors of nephrite are more subdued and softer and more subtle, but I find them attractive. The colors of jadeite are brighter and a more vivid green. There's also lavender, which is very attractive. So, yes, the color is one thing, and the extreme toughness of nephrite, what it lets carvers accomplish.   Sharon: If something is lavender, depending on price range, you could add polymers to make it lavender? Is it nephrite or would that be jadeite, or both?   Eric: That is jadeite, yes. Unfortunately, lavender is faked as well. Polymer-treated lavender does exist. It's usually so garish looking that you can dismiss it right out of hand, but a really good imitation can be a little harder to tell. Once again, you rely on an infrared spectrometer to tell the difference.   Sharon: Do you have one lying around your house?    Eric: I have no infrared spectrometer.   Sharon: In the thousands of years they've been carving jade, whether it's in China or Burma or wherever, is there natural lavender jade? What are the natural colors?   Eric: Oh yes, there is natural lavender. It's a softer, more subtle lavender. It comes from Burma along with the other jades, so it does exist.   Sharon: Are there any other colors? There's green; there's white; there's lavender. There are different shades of green, but what else? Is that it for all the jades?   Eric: There is a red. There's a reddish brown, russet and black.   Sharon: And they all come from Burma and then they're shipped off to China? Or are they in China?   Eric: The jade is all from Burma and it's almost universally carved in China.   Sharon: So, if somebody shows me a piece—I keep going back to this example of a bangle bracelet—and somebody says it's from China, it's really been dug out of the ground in Burma and shipped off to China to be made into something. Is that what you're saying?   Eric: That's correct. If it's jadeite, the raw material came from northern Burma and the work was almost certainly done in China.   Sharon: O.K. You must really take people aback when you start asking them questions. They probably think you're just another person who doesn't know anything about jade.   Eric: Once again, you want to find a dealer you have some faith in.   Sharon: Do you think you have those dealers? Because you're a dealer, do you think the people you get your material and your carved objects from, are they trustworthy? If they call you and say, “Hey, do I have a deal for you,” do you say, “O.K., let me hear about it”?   Eric: There are dealers I buy from and there are dealers I sell to. I also sell jade books, books about jade.   Sharon: Tell us about some of the things you're written about or the names of the books.   Eric: At one point, I might have been the number one seller of jade books in the world. I've written about that. I've sent a lot of the best ones to China. Even though the shipping cost can be horrendous for a big, heavy book, it doesn't seem to bother anybody in China to pay it.   Sharon: You must have clients from all over the world.   Eric: Yeah, I've probably shipped to about 20 to 30 countries.   Sharon: Besides the books, who contacts you from all over the world to say, “Hey, I saw this object on your site”?   Eric: I get that all the time, people showing pictures. Invariably it's imitation ancient jades.    Sharon: How about when they want to buy something from you? Do they come from all over the world?   Eric: I ship all over.    Sharon: Tell us what you've written about. If you're the number one seller, people really trust what you have to say about jade. Are you writing from a mineral perspective for what to look for? What are you telling them? What are you writing about in the books?    Eric: As an engineer, it's the technical aspect I appreciate the most. Telling jade from pseudo jade has been a side specialty.   Sharon: I shouldn't send my bracelet from the swap meet to you because I should just assume it's pseudo jade. That's what you're saying, right?   Eric: It pays to have a healthy sense of skepticism. I assume everything is fake until proven otherwise.   Sharon: How would somebody prove otherwise to you? Because it's old and they're brushing the dirt off of it? How would they prove it?   Eric: Perhaps the most reliable thing in dealing with ancient jades is to take a close look at the tooling techniques and looking for modern toolmarks, which would not have been used a thousand plus years ago.   Sharon: Do you often find when you're evaluating a piece for you to buy to resell, will someone tell you, “Oh, this is made with old tools,” and then you'll find a modern tool mark and hand it back?   Eric: There's no handing back. A lot of times, you have to buy in a dark, dingy corner, no recourse, no refund, cash only.   Sharon: I guess I'm thinking about a big show or something like that. You're saying they pull you aside. Do they open their raincoat or something?   Eric: At a big show, of course, the vetting has already been done for you. But that's reflected in the very high prices, so it's hard to buy anything at a big show for resale.    Sharon: As a collector, if we were going to buy or evaluate a piece and we don't have our handy refractometer with us, what should we be doing in terms of the sense of skepticism? It's like how on Antiques Roadshow you see people all the time who believe they have pre-Columbian artifacts and they're proven to be fake. Should we look for contemporary toolmarks? Is that one tell?   Eric: You've opened another new subject, and that's pre-Columbian jade. Jade was carved in Central America roughly about the time of the Chinese Zhou Dynasty. In fact, there's some thought that perhaps there was communication between China and the jade carvers in Central America because a lot of the motifs are the same. But in Central America, at that time, they were using string and abrasives and stone files, not metal tools.   Sharon: When was this?   Eric: This would have been maybe 500 to 1,000 years ago.    Sharon: Not that long ago, really, when you compare it to China or even other places in the world.   Eric: That's right. For the first several thousand years, China carved with the same kinds of tools before they had metals.   Sharon: That's really interesting. Tell us a bit more about when we should come to a person like you, what we'll find in the books and chapters you've coauthored. Are we only going to find technical stuff, or are we going to find history? Are we going to find anything else?   Eric: There are jade books that cover all of that. Unfortunately, they're not all in the same book. The book I worked on most recently was by Richard Hughes in Bangkok. It's a big, heavy book. It's costs $200 just to mail it from Bangkok to the United States. It's not the kind of investment everybody will make, and it does focus on the gemology aspects of both nephrite and jadeite.    Sharon: When are you going to be writing your book about history? You say there's not a book that encompasses it all. Forget the minerology, but the history, the carving, how it's done. When are you going to write it?   Eric: I don't think you should wait for it. I've been assembling notes for about 20 years. Elyse asks that same question about once a week.   Sharon: So, I should come back to you in 10, 15 years?   Eric: 10 years would be good.   Sharon: For somebody like me, it would be an easier book to write because I don't know the technical stuff. The history and the carving would be interesting and fast to write.    Eric: While you're waiting the 10 years, there is actually a book that was written called “Jade Lore.” I'm not sure when it was written; possibly in the 40s. That does cover, in a very readable way, a lot of the history along with a little bit of the technical.   Sharon: But isn't it out of print because it's been so long?   Eric: It's out of print, but you can find copies. It was written by a journalist who was on-site in China around the time the Qing Dynasty was falling apart, and a lot of these pieces were coming onto the market.   Sharon: When was that? How long ago?   Eric: The Qing Dynasty fell in 1911, 1912. I think this book was written either in the 30s or 40s. It was written by somebody who really knew how to write a lively story.   Sharon: Where have you been? If you're saying you look at these objects or jewels, have you been to some of the places and seen them directly, or is it mostly when somebody brings you into a dark corner?   Eric: I've been to Taiwan. I have not been to mainland China. As I mentioned earlier, the Chinese really want to repatriate and bring back into the country the best jades as well as jade books. To get pieces of jade now, you pretty much have to stumble across American collections or European collections.   Sharon: I think that's true of other pieces too. It seems that the Chinese are very interested in repatriating a lot of older jewelry. We're being told they're the ones who drive the prices up. Is that also true in jade?   Eric: Oh, absolutely. In fact, there's a book on that subject as well.    Sharon: Which is?   Eric: On the whole subject of repatriating these pieces back into China.    Sharon: What do people do with them when they have them back in China?   Eric: What do they do with them in China?   Sharon: Yeah.   Eric: Some of those will end up in museums in China. Others end up in private collections of millionaires.   Sharon: Eric, I see Elyse in the corner there. You have to go pack your bags so you can get ready for your next trip to Myanmar or mainland China. You've been to Taiwan. Thank you very much for being with us today.    Eric: It's a pleasure. Thank you for inviting me.   Sharon: It's been great. We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.   Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.

What you'll learn in this episode:   The difference between jadeite and nephrite, and why both are known as jade Why Chinese artisans have chosen to carve jade for thousands of years Why jade can be purchased at dramatically different price points How to spot a pseudo jade that has been dyed or polymer treated Why a healthy sense of skepticism is the most important thing a new jade collector can have   About Eric Hoffman   Eric Hoffman is an aficionado of Chinese jades for over 40 years. He is the owner and operator of Far East Gallery, which is dedicated to lovers of Chinese arts, antiques, antiquities, and—most especially—jades and snuff bottles. A member of the worldwide organizations Friends of Jade and the Association for the Study of Jewelry and Related Arts, jade consultant to the Chinese Cultural Relics Association, and contributing editor to Adornment magazine, Prof. Hoffman has written many articles and reviews on this fascinating subject.   Additional Resources: Website Facebook Introductory Articles on Jade: http://hoffmanjade.com/Adornment_Jade.pdf https://asianart.com/articles/hoffman/index.html   Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com   Transcript: Jade is a popular gemstone that even the most avid jewelry collectors often know little about. Much of the confusion stems from the fact that two distinct stones share the same name. Enter Eric Hoffman, a jade dealer and author who is an expert on identifying different types of jade. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about jadeite jade vs. nephrite jade; why jade can either be extremely valuable or basically worthless; and how new collectors can find quality pieces. Read the episode transcript here.    Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week.    Today my guest is Eric J. Hoffman, who's extremely knowledgeable about jade. Eric is the owner of Far East Gallery and HoffmanJade.com. He is both a seller and a buyer, and he knows a lot about what makes jade valuable. He's also an author who has written about jade. I don't know about you, but I know nothing about jade. So, Eric is going to tell us about his path, tell us about jade, and educate us about collecting the gem. Eric, welcome to the program.   Eric: Thank you for inviting me to talk about my favorite subject.   Sharon: Thanks for being here. Tell us about your journey. I know you didn't start out in jade. You started out in a different field, but how did you get into jade?   Eric: I definitely did not start out in jade. Around 1970, I was on the bench designing communication circuits for satellites. My technician was an amateur minerologist, a rockhound, and he dragged me off one weekend to a gem show in Pennsylvania. At the show, they had a gem-carving contest. This was pretty much the first time I realized you could carve gemstones.    The winner of the contest was a gorgeous cat sitting on its haunches, about six or seven inches tall, carved out of tiger eye. It was on a platform that was rotating under a spotlight, so you got all the play of color off the tiger eye. It was an incredible thing to see, and it really got me interested in carved gemstones. It didn't take too long to realize the best stone to carve was jade, and the best carvers at carving jade were the Chinese. They've been at it for 8,000 years. That's how I got started.   Sharon: Tell us about jade. You mentioned you have a gallery and that you're a dealer. I have a lot to ask you. Tell us a little about jade itself.   Eric: Jade is a very interesting gemstone. There are a lot of gemstones that go by multiple names, but I think jade is the only example where two different stones go by the same name, jade. There's nephrite jade and there's jadeite jade. Both of those are carved. The jadeite is more commonly seen in jewelry and the nephrite is more commonly seen in carvings and artifacts.   Sharon: So when I hear or see something about nephrite, it's jade, no matter what you're saying.   Eric: That's right. Both nephrite and jadeite are properly called jade. There are a lot of jade imitators around that are not jade, but those two stones are.    Sharon: What are the differences between nephrite and jadeite? When I read about jadeite, I don't know the difference. Is that jadeite is or is it jade?    Eric: Nephrite jade is the historically first jade. It's the jade that has been carved for 8,000 years by the Chinese. It's a calcium magnesium silicate, and the thing that makes it unique is that it's the toughest of all the stones. It's the hardest to break of all the stones.    Jadeite, which has very similar properties, is a sodium aluminum silicate. It's a different stone. In fact, both of these stones are rocks. Technically they're mixtures of minerals, but we call them rocks. The thing that makes nephrite so tough is its fibrous structure that's matted together, like the fibers in the felt in a felt hat, which makes it extremely difficult to break and allows carvers to work it very thin.   Sharon: Is white jade nephrite? What is white jade? Where does jade come from? It's in the ground, but is it in the same place in the ground? Does somebody do something with it afterward? Do they add a chemical or something?   Eric: They're found in very different regions. Actually, they're found all over the world, but most commonly the nephrite that the Chinese were using, at least for the past 1,000 years or so, has come from a region in western China called Hotan. The jade you're likely to encounter in jewelry is jadeite. It comes from the northern part of Burma, and it was only in the late 1700s that it became commonly seen in China.   Sharon: When you say it's been carved for thousands of years in China, the nephrite jade that's in the Hotan region, what was it about this stone that attracted carvers and kept it going for so long?   Eric: The initial thing that attracted the Chinese carvers 8,000 years ago—this was even before metals came into common use in China—was the extreme toughness of jade. It could be used for hammers, axes, adzes, chisels, tools, weapons. It was like the high-tech material of its day 8,000 years ago.   Sharon: When you say that other people are carvers, I think of objects. Was it made into objects also?   Eric: It started out being made into functional objects, tools and then weapons. But it was in such high regard that it soon became kind of a kingly material used in the royal court, and it started to pick up significance other than being a practical material.    Sharon: When people started to want jade jewelry, they moved to the other kind, jadeite.    Eric: The jewelry that was used in the ancient days is not something we would probably wear today. They tend to be more like plaques worn from robes, maybe suspended from a belt. Around the late 1700s China got control of the northern part of Burma, which was a warlike tribal area, and that's where jadeite is found. Jadeite had brighter, more attractive colors than nephrite, so it immediately caught on for jewelry in China.   Sharon: Tell us about your business with both kinds of jade, I presume. Will people pay more for the nephrite from your gallery? Will you pay more knowing you can resell it for more?   Eric: I didn't intend to get into business. What happens if you're a collector is you always want some particular object, so you buy the first one that comes by. Then a better one comes along maybe a year or two later, and now you're struck with two of them. I'm constantly selling the extras and using any proceeds to acquire new items.    Jade can be a very expensive stone. We normally think of jade lumped in with the semiprecious stones, but in the highest grade, jadeite and red diamonds are the two most expensive, valuable gemstones. An extreme example of that would be the famous Barbara Hutton jade necklace, which is 27 spherical beads of jadeite. It sold a few years ago at auction for $27 million, $1 million per bead.   Sharon: Wow! Which is stronger? Are they both as strong, the jadeite and the nephrite? Can you throw both of them against a wall?    Eric: Nephrite is the tougher stone by a little bit. As I said, it's the toughest of all the stones. In fact, it may be toughest natural substance in the world. I'm not certain about that, but it's certainly the toughest of the stones, the hardest to break. Jadeite is a little less tough but a little bit harder, so it makes a better ring stone, for example.   Sharon: How long ago did you decide to start an online gallery, Far East Gallery and HoffmanJade.com? You've coauthored books about jade. How long ago did your collecting become more of a business?   Eric: Far East Gallery goes all the way back to the early 70s, which precedes the world wide web and the internet. As soon as the web arrived, I started a web-based business, which is worldwide at this point.   Sharon: You said there was something you had planned for online, another web page or more information.   Eric: Just a few days ago, in fact, I added a page on jade jewelry. This was at the urging of my wife, the jewelry historian.   Sharon: That's Elyse Karlin, I should say.   Eric: Elyse Karlin, whose computer I'm using right now. Other than that, the website consists of jade objects, some of which can be used for jewelry and snuff bottles, which is another side interest of mine.   Sharon: When I see a piece of jewelry and the person I'm buying it from says it's jade, should I ask if it's nephrite or jadeite? Should I assume it's jadeite or nephrite? I don't know what I should do.   Eric: It always pays to ask. If it's a carving, it could be either. If it's jewelry, it's probably jadeite, but there is also nephrite jewelry.    Sharon: I think I told you that I was in Santa Fe, New Mexico a few years ago before Covid, and somebody was trying to sell me Mawsitsit earrings. I had never heard of Mawsitsit. They told me it was a very unusual kind of jade and it was going to overtake jade in a sense. Since I knew nothing about it, I didn't know if they were giving me a line. Tell us about Mawsitsit.   Eric: If it was a good price, you probably should have bought them. Mawsitsit is a very interesting stone. It's kind of a cousin of jadeite. It has a lot of jadeite in it, but also some other components such as kosmochlor and other minerals. It's found in only one tiny, little region in Burma. It's sort of a vivid green with black streaking through it.    Sharon: If I remember—this was years ago— it was sort of black with blue and green. Is Mawsitsit something special? If I talked to a person who really knows jade and I say Mawsitsit, do they know what I'm talking about?   Eric: I would say probably yes. It's a desirable stone in its own right, although it is technically not jade. It has a lot of jadeite in it.   Sharon: I think it's the first and only time I have ever encountered this stone. When you say it's harder than any known natural substance, is it harder than diamonds? You usually think of diamonds as the hardest thing there is.   Eric: Actually, what I said is it's tougher, which means it's harder to break, but it's not especially hard. Hardness is the resistance to scratching, and of course diamond is at the very top of the scale. Nephrite comes in at about a 6.5 on the Mohs scale, which means it's just barely good enough to make a good ring stone and not get scratched up.   Sharon: You see both kinds, the jadeite and the nephrite, in the ground. Diamonds are cubic. Are they cubic? I can't remember. Shows you what I know. What form is it? Is it in squares or cubes?   Eric: Jadeite is usually mined out of the ground mostly in northern Burma. The nephrite forms up in the mountains, at least for the past thousand years. If you go back 7,000 or 8,000 years, there were sources of nephrite in China itself. But for the past few thousand years, it forms up in the mountains, tumbles down the mountains in the course of time, and bounces down the rivers and gets rounded off into pebbles or cobbles that are plucked out of the rivers in Hotan one at a time.   Sharon: 8,000 years ago in China, they would go up and mine this nephrite, and today they just pick it up when it comes down the mountain? Is that what you're saying?   Eric: They were always picking it out of the rivers because river jade, or alluvial jade, is more desirable than mountain jade. But because jade is so tough, the things they have to do to wrench it from the mountain are so destructive to the jade that it puts cracks through it and creates all kinds of problems for the carver.   Sharon: Tell us about your business today. Do people call you and say, “I have this carving or this piece of jade from a thousand years ago. Are you interested?” Tell us what you would do when you encounter that.   Eric: That does happen sometimes. Pretty much all of my customers come via the website, and we have discussions back and forth by email until finally a sale is made. It is very hard to evaluate ancient pieces from pictures or jpgs alone, particularly so since there is quite an active industry in China cranking out fakes.   Sharon: Is there an industrial use for jade?   Eric: Not that I can think of. It seems to me that it would make a good bearing material for things like ship propellers, but as far as I know, it's never been used in that regard.    Sharon: So, you have the opportunity to touch an object or get your hands on it to see if it's an antique or not. What do you do when somebody from China contacts you and says, “I like the piece you have on your site”? What do you do?   Eric: Oddly enough, I send a lot of jade back to China. They're very interested in repatriating old pieces, so when I get them, a lot of it goes back to China where it started out.   Sharon: But you have the opportunity to see if it was actually an older piece as opposed to a fake.   Eric: Unfortunately, there's no scientific way to date a piece of jade, so it does come down to my experience and opinion and the opinions of others. There are some scientific tests for other kinds of antiques like ceramics, but not for jade.    Sharon: Can you tell us about the articles you've authored? You've coauthored two articles that are in very well-known books. There's a book about to come out and one book that has already come out and seems to be very well-regarded. Can you tell us about those?   Eric: One of the things I love to talk about is jade versus pseudo jade. Jade has so many different imitators, and learning to distinguish one from the other is a main interest of mine. The articles in the books go into that. The first three jades I bought when I was starting out in the early 1970s were not jade. I made my mistakes early. I guess as Elyse says, in jewelry, if you're not making mistakes, you're not buying enough jewelry.    Sharon: So, that means I should go out and buy more then. How did you find out they were pseudo? Did somebody tell you?   Eric: No, that would be too simple. You can run some fairly easy tests, such as hardness testing and specific gravity or density testing. That helps rule out many of the pseudo jades.   Sharon: What is it that attracts you? Why jade? Why not another stone? You saw the tiger eye and fell in love with it. Why didn't you just keep all the tiger eye?   Eric: There are a lot of wonderful carvings done in tiger eye, which is a chalcedony. It's a little bit harder than jade. It's nowhere near as tough as jade, so it cannot be carved as finely and thinly. You can't do the various things that are done with the jade material because of its extreme toughness.   Sharon: Is it because you thought, “I have to get it back to Los Angeles. It's easier. It's not going to break”? Is that why you brought that to Los Angeles? I guess I still don't have an answer to why jade.   Eric: I guess the answer to that is that I've always been interested in the Chinese decorative arts, and when it comes to carving, the Chinese always pick jade. They have carved other stones along the way, but jade is always at the top of the heap.    Sharon: Is that because there's a lot more jade in China? I guess I think of different things, not so much the stones, when it comes to China.   Eric: No, there are a lot more other kinds of stones in China than jade. Jade is not particularly rare in the average grades, but it's more uncommon than the jade imitators.   Sharon: But you said it's not in the lower grades or lower echelons. It's not as expensive or as valued. It's the white jade that's valued by carvers.   Eric: White jade is an interesting subject. In the case of nephrite, white jade is very desirable and very much in fashion right now. A particular kind of white jade called mutton fat jade is highly sought out and very expensive. Now, when you switch to the other jade, jadeite, white jade is almost worthless. In fact, it wasn't too long ago that white jade in Burma was crushed and used as a road fill. That's how little was thought about it. Yet that same stone in its very highest grade formed those million-dollar bead necklaces. I don't think there's any other stone that has such a wide range of value.    Sharon: It was used to be crushed for roads at the lower end, and at the higher end, it was used in very expensive jewelry. That's what you're saying?   Eric: At the highest end, you have the Barbara Hutton necklace at $1 million per bead. At the lowest end, it was crushed and used for driveways and road fill. It's the same stone, jadeite.    Sharon: But you said there's a white jade that's a nephrite, and then there's another kind of white jade that's a jadeite, right?   Eric: That's right. When you're talking about white jade, it makes a big difference whether it's nephrite or jadeite.   Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to the JewelryJourney.com to check them out.

Book mentioned: “Powwowing in Pennsylvania: Braucherei & the Ritual of Everyday Life” by Patrick J. Donmoyer https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/40605053-powwowing-in-pennsylvania Eric's website is at www.ericsteinhart.com Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S3E27 TRANSCRIPT:----more----   Mark: Welcome back to the Wonder Science: Based-Paganism. I'm your host Mark. Yucca: And I'm the other one Yucca. Mark: And today we have a very special episode of The Wonder. We're really excited to discuss urban paganism with two guests from New York City, Joh and Eric Steinhart. And so welcome to both of you. Eric: Hello. Joh: Hi, thank you so much for having us great to be here. Mark: really delighted to have you, so I guess, to get started why don't we just ask you to tell us a bit about yourselves? How did you come to non paganism? You wanna start Joh? Joh: Sure. My name is Joh. I've lived in New York for about 16 years. My path is very new. It's only about four years old. I've always been drawn to certain. Aesthetics around the occult I was a teen goth in the nineties, which perfect for that, but I never, I never really thought that I fit into any of those paths. I couldn't put my finger on why. A few years ago I purchased a, a beginner's book on, on witchcraft and developing your own identity as a witch. I got it just for fun, for a long train ride. There's a bit in there in the beginning that outlines different kinds of witches or witchcraft like green witches, kitchen, witches, chaos, magic, wicca. I'd heard some of these. Terms before, but they're described very plainly in the book and it gave me a little bit of a glimpse into how vast of a world paganism might be that I didn't know anything about, or I hadn't realized. So I started reading a lot more about developing a practice, but still didn't really feel like I fit in. I couldn't relate to the belief system parts. And in one of my internet rabbit holes, I learned about the book godless paganism, which described paganism from a more science based lens. And I just got really excited about what that sounded like. So I ordered it to my local bookstore and I devoured that book, the concepts, it taught me even more about how personal one's path can be and that there is this little corner of this world that felt like a fit and like I could belong. So then I started looking for a community because I was so excited and I wanted to talk about it with people. And I was clicking on links and links and links online and finally found the atheopagan Facebook group, which was the first active community that I had found that actually had recent activity in there. So I, I joined and I've been in that community for about two to three years, and it's just such an incredibly supportive, inspiring place that gives me ideas of how to develop my practice even more. And you know, now fast forward to today, I'm just really grateful to have found this community and group and little subset of of the path. Mark: That's great. Thank you. Yucca: Yeah, Eric, what about you? Eric: Yeah. So, I mean, I come from a very strange place. I mean, I'm Pennsylvania, German and Pennsylvania, German culture often known as Pennsylvania, Dutch, but we're not Dutch. We're Germans. And that culture is a magical culture and, you know, magic was normalized in that culture from the very beginning from its very roots. And so I grew up with a lot of that stuff. I mean, I grew up in, in a culture that was filled with magical practices of all sorts. And I mean, nominally, I mean, you know, nominally explicitly a Christian culture, but probably a lot of Christians would say, no, you know, you guys are doing some weird stuff. And, you know, I, I became attracted to science and early on and, you know, just don't really have a theistic worldview at all. So combining some of those things got me and I, you know, and I was in, I was involved sort of in, in atheist movements for a while and found a lot of atheism to be kind of, practically shallow, you know, there's, it's like, yeah, after you're done being mad at God, what do you do then? I mean, and there was like nothing. And you know, my, I would always say things like, look, there's no atheist art. You know, there's like atheist music, you know, there's just, you know, there's, there's no culture, right. Or the culture is, and more and more people have observed this. It's kind of parasitic on Christianity in a way. And so I found that very unsatisfying, right? Certainly I know plenty of atheists. I'm a philosopher, I'm a philosophy professor and I know plenty of, you know, professional atheists and all they do is talk about God. And so I'm like, look, I don't wanna talk about God. Let's let's let's talk about something else. Let's do something else. And I found that paganism in various forms, it was just kind of, kind of starting, but in various forms, you know, had a culture had art, had aesthetics, had practices, had symbols had a fairly rich worked out way of life. And as a philosopher, you know, I've got plenty of training in ancient cultures, particularly Greek and Roman but also also Germanic. And you know, I just thought, oh, This stuff, all kind of fits together. And so I became very interested in thinking about ways and I've advocated among atheists to say things like, look, you guys have to start. And, and, and women too, you've gotta start building a culture and you can't build a culture of negativity, you know, a culture of no, a culture and especially not a culture. That's essentially a mirror image of Christianity that all you're doing is talking about God. And you know, I've had a little success there, but it's a, it's a tough hall. But I think more and more something like a kind of atheopagan could really be a live option for the future of lots of aspects of American culture, right? As people become de Christianized, what are they gonna do? And some people say, well, they're just gonna be secular. But that's not really an answer and that's not a culture. And as you start looking around, you start to see these other cultures that are kind of bubbling up and developing. So yeah, I mean, I came to it from, you know, both the sort of old ethnic, Pennsylvania, German angle, the kind of philosophy and science angle and dissatisfaction with you know, sort of mainstream atheism. So lots of different roads in Yucca: Wow. That's a, that's a really interesting path to, to come on. So it'd be interesting hear more about the practice, the magical kind of practices that you talked about. Eric: well, there's a good, there's a good book by this guy, Patrick, Don moer called pow wowing. So you can check that out. It's incredibly rich and incredibly weird stuff, you know, Yucca: well, we'll find that and put it in the show notes. If people wanna take a look at it. Eric: Right. Mark: Yeah. Well, both of your stories are really very interesting that way in, in in that identification of Something being missing, but the, the main, the main offerings that are, that surround us in our culture, not really fitting that hole. That's certainly what I found as well, you know, and it's the reason that I wrote the essay that first started out a paganism. And I, I should probably introduce at this point that Eric, you, you especially have been involved with various non theist pagan efforts since long before I wrote that essay I just was, did a poor job of research and didn't find the other naturalistic non-theistic paganism efforts that were being done around the world. Until after I had already, you know, published and was starting to get attention for atheopagan So, as urban pagans living in the city what do your practices look like? Joh, you wanna, you wanna start on that? Joh: Sure. My practice may not be super urban sounding, but, but. There's some stuff about like spots in the city that, that I do. But generally my, my daily practice is in the morning. My apartment faces east and I wake up early enough to catch the sunrise every day. And I'll kind of first just stare at stare at it and kind of greet the sky every morning. I do stretches to start the day and I position my mat to face that window so that I can really connect with the day while I'm waking up. I have a small focus that I decorate seasonally. I really connect with ritual and the different physical objects around my practice, probably because I was raised Catholic and I always loved the sacred spaces, the incense, the bells, the rituals, and the regalia of it all. So it's a very tangible practice for me. And I have a. Personal calendar with the, the, you know, the solstice and the equinoxes in it. But also with other days that are very personal to me. Like I celebrate Freddie Mercury's birthday every year, for example, and, and the anniversary of when I move to New York and I'll actually take that day off of work and like use that whole day to really explore parts of the city that I love. And don't as easily make time for during the rest of the year. And then I also try to cook and eat seasonally as much as possible and really understand what the, what the ecology of this region is like. And I made this spreadsheet that tells me what's in season around here based on what month it is. It makes it easier to shop for and plan meals and things like that. Mark: Hm. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: Wow. That's a lot. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Yeah, that's very cool. Thank you, Joh. Yucca: you have any parks nearby that you go to? Is that part of your practice or more? Just the relationship with the city and the sky. Joh: There is a really beautiful community garden in my neighborhood. That's open to the public a couple of days a week, and sometimes I'll walk there or ride my bike there and just kind of slowly walk down the paths and see how everyone's set up their plots and what they're growing. And there are bees everywhere and some benches off to the side. So sometimes I'll sit there and journal a little bit, or just kind of stare into space. And, you know, the people who have plots there are required to volunteer, you know, certain number of hours every week. And there's this section at the end where you can see everyone composting and things like that. So there's that piece. And then. In the city as well. There are different ways. Speaking of composting, that you can participate in kind of that cycle. So you can go to a drop off spot and bring your food scraps and they'll compost them and, and then use that for the public parks and things like that. Yucca: Oh, nice. Joh: that's like another way that allows me to feel more connected to the public parks and spaces of nature that are kind of engineered in such a dense area. Mark: Uhhuh. Nice. Nice. Eric. How about your practice? Eric: Yeah. I mean, my practices are probably a little too intellectual. I mean, one of my main practices is trying to figure out how all this stuff can work out and how to make sense of, of, of pagan ideas and practices. Right. That's cuz I'm a philosopher. That's what I do. I mean I do have a little I have a little altar and I do, you know, things, things like that, but I, I do try to think. A lot about how what paganism means and what kind of pagan concepts are relevant, for instance, in an urban context, right? I mean, cities are not trying to be forests. That's not what they're trying to do. They're not. And, and, you know, trying to work out pagan contexts or concepts and beliefs and practices in an urban setting it may, you, you have to think a little bit differently, right. Because there's a lot of you know, what you might call mainstream paganism that has a very I think very biased view of what paganism is or should be like we're all supposed to be farmers or, or, or Amish or something. I mean, I grew up with the Amish, you know, I mean, so I'm like, no, no, I know what that is. And so, you know, thinking of the ways that that cities are natural spaces and that cities are ecosystems not because they're trying to be, you know, a national park, right. I mean, and there's more and more wonderful research among, you know, biologists and ecologists of, of how cities themselves are ecosystems, you know, they are not, they're not phony ecosystems like, oh, New York. City's great because it's got central park. No, you know, the, the city isn't eco, I mean more and more research onto this is fascinating stuff because you're finding all these species, not just humans, humans are a natural species, but you know, raccoons, cougars, coyotes, you know, and New York city has there, there's beautiful research that's been done in New York city. Right. We have herds of deer. Wandering the city. We have, you know, foxes. I mentioned the, the raccoons, I think the bird life in New York city is, you know, and so you find things like, and there's a term for this, a technical term for these kinds of critters, right. Sin, Andros, right. These are animals that have adapted to humans and now live. They flourish with humans. They flourish in cities, right? So, New York city for instance, is an extraordinary place to be a Raptor, a bird of prey, right? New York city has some of the highest Paran, Falcon and Hawk populations anywhere. Right? Because they love the tall buildings. They love the bridges. Like the bridges are filled with Paragon, Falcon nests. And you're like, yeah, these, you know, life is adaptive. And So I try to think of all the ways that we live together with all these things in the cities and how humans have made a home, not just for humans, but for, for a whole ecosystem of, of critters. And, you know, like urban raccoons are not like rural raccoons, right. They've things. Right. And it's really interesting, you know, and people study this, you know, scientists, they study like how cities are driving bur particularly birds and raccoons. Are the species been studied most to become more intelligent, they're learning how to solve all sorts of problems. Right. So, so I find, you know, so part of, I guess my practice is sort of learning about that, observing that, thinking about ways that I mean, we haven't, we have a general issue. In the United States, right. Which is that so much of our space and structure is thoroughly Christianized. And it's not an easy thing to say, oh, well, let's, we're, you know, we're just gonna do something different, right. When all of your space is structured around a certain way of life. And so, you know, I, I try to think about ways that we can think of all kind like, okay, the four elements, you know, fire earth, air and water for me, light, you know, how do those relate in an urban context, right? Then in the, in a great way in New York city, you know, you can actually go into the earth. You know, in ways that most ordinary people can't right. And you can go deep into the earth right. In the, in the subways. I mean, you can do that on a daily basis. Right. And you can, you know, I mean, being stuck on a subway, train deep in the earth right. Is a way to like, encounter something that's terrifying and forceful. So how do you think of that sort of thing in, in a, in pagan ways, right? How do you think of, I mean, New York city is also very close to water. I mean, that's the reason the city exists. Right. It's one of the greatest bays in the world. We have dolphins, we have whales in the Hudson seals thinking of that kind of life as part of the city too. And I'll mention one other thing, thinking of things like, I don't know if people know about, I mean, you know, about Manhattan henge. Right. So, so you've got, you know, you've got structures there that people recently have started to say things like, Hey, we Stonehenge, we have Manhattan henge. You know, we have a, we have a thing and it wasn't designed that way, but Mark: Eric, would you like to explain what that is for our listeners? That don't know what it is? Eric: Yeah, Manhattan henge because Manhattan, the you know, the streets are in a sort of Southeast Northwest orientation. There are two times of the year when the sun come, you know, if you're stand on 42nd street in the middle and you've got skyscrapers on either side, my head is the sun, right. And the son just comes down between, you know, vertically between the skyscrapers and sets, right. You know, across the water sort of like Stonehenge, right? Like coming down between these monoliths. And I've seen it is, is really incredible. And people, you know, thousands and thousands of people go out in the streets to photograph it. And Thinking about ways that that kind of stuff can develop. And it might not be stuff that somebody says explicitly like, oh, this is pagan, like it's Wiccan or ARU or drew it, or, or whatever, or witchy witchcraft or something, but these are cultural things that people start to do. Right. And if you start to look around, you see all kinds of little shrines in the city, you know, I mean, there are, there are some obvious big ones in the statue of liberties, like a big pagan statue. And there are statues of old Greek and Roman deities in the city. There's like, mercury and Atlas are down at Rockefeller center, right? There's a statue of pan at Columbia university there. These, you know, these things exist. And not to, I mean, I, I think also, you know, a lot of urban places in a sort of practical sense of things to do things like art museums, right. Where you can go in, in New York, the metropolitan museum, and you can see lots of in fact they just are now having a big show on what old pagan statues used to look like. Right. Because they weren't white, they weren't white Mar they were painted. Right. They were dye. And so they've taken a bunch of them made replicas and they could still find microscopic traces of these dyes in the rock. And so they've now repainted them as they looked. So I'll go see that soon. So there's lots of opportunities for people to do all kinds of things. And I, and I real, but I really do think that. There's a, still a need to develop a lot of cultural infrastructure, right? You could go out in central park and, and do some ritual on the solstice or something, but that's really not. That to me is like something that sort of slides right off the surface of the culture, cuz it doesn't have any connections to things. There used to be some larger connections before COVID there was a network of drum circles. I don't know if people had been to prospect park in Brooklyn, there were some immense, there was immense drum drum stuff going on there. COVID kind of brought an end to a lot of that. So we'll see how that starts up, but I, I think there's a lot of There's there's a lot of thing. And if you do wanna go out in, in you know, in a kind of less urban environment, you know, New York city is actually is the highest density of Woodland trails over 2000 miles of trails within a 60 mile radius of the city, cuz the Appalachian mountains just arc right across the north. Mark: Right. Eric: And so you can, you can, yeah. It's the highest concentration of Woodland parks and trails anywhere in the United States. Mark: Wow. Eric: There's a lot, there's a lot still to be done. And I think I'll just, I'll just leave off with that. Mark: I was that's. Yeah. There's so much to say there. I mean, you mentioned the met and it's that talk about sacred spaces? I, I mean, the metropolitan museum of art is one of the great sacred spaces of the world. It's like a shrine to all human culture. Joh, I, I know you live in Queens, so I imagine you get to the Cloisters which is another super sacred space for me. This is kind of out of order of the, the questions that we talked about doing, but are there specific places or sacred spaces that you think of? When you, when you think about urban paganism in your city, Joh: Yeah. One thing that New York really does well is bigness. There are a few very stereotypically New York spaces that I have like religious experiences and in their giant. So the inside of grand central terminal is one of them. It's massive. It's echoy. The ceiling is painted with this beautiful night sky scene with the Zodiac constellations on it. Part of what feels so humbling being in there is going off of something. Eric said before is knowing that it's also this hub of this massive living transportation network that enables the movement of thousands, millions of people within this tri-state area. Another one is the branch of the New York public library with the very iconic lions out front it's, it's a beautiful piece of architecture. It's also inside cavernous full of this beautiful art, larger than life and quiet. It's really like church almost. You feel like when you're in there, cuz you have this like reverence and respect and gratitude for all of this knowledge that's contained in there and that it's free. Like you can just go and like getting a card is free. It's it still blows my mind. This one is pretty kind of cliche, but the empire state building it's so tall, but the city is so dense that I never expect to see it when I do so I'll be walking somewhere, probably distracted, multitasking, and then I'll look up and it'll just be there in front of my face. And it's this like instantly calming moment for me and kind of resets me in whatever's going on in life at the time. And then there's like smaller little smaller spots. Like there's a Steinway piano showroom near times square that I like to go visit. I play the piano and it's a really silencing experience, even though it's so busy around there and, and crowded and, and loud, but just to stand outside and gaze in at these beautiful pianos that are handmade just across the river in Queens, like it's really, really cool how accessible places like this are because of that, you know, that network that connects, although the parts of the city, so well, the subway. So yeah, those are, those are a few that come to mind. how about you? Eric: Yeah, I think, I think Joh says some great things. I mean, one point there is like the urban sublime, right? Like these, you know, towers that rise to infinity. I mean, it, you can have a kind of experience. That's hard to get anywhere else. If you go like up to the observation deck on the, you know, the freedom tower that replace the world trade centers or the empire state building or Rockefeller center, right. You go up on tops of these things and you see, you know, from a. Point, and that kind of space is you know, I mean, it's commercial, right? You pay, you're going up to the top of, of a skyscraper, but you, it can induce kinds of experiences that are hard to get elsewhere. And sure, grand central station, that's like a great example of a kind of space that's already, you know, sort of semi pagan in its kind of classical thing. Like the Zodiac is there and it's this immense space and you can, you can go in and just be you can experience awe and, and, and humbleness and things like that. A lot in the city. And I think, you know, especially when I first started coming to the city and, and probably a lot of people would have a similar experience. You, you just feel overwhelmed. I mean, the, the sheer size of these things that are around you and unlike I mean, other cities have some of this, but you know, it's not like in New York city, you can walk, you walk a few blocks and you're out. Right. I mean, if you're in Manhattan, you can walk for like 12 miles through this amenity and you're sort of like, I mean, it's, it's humbling. So I think that, I think, and I think there's a lot of symbolism that goes into that. I'll mention that there have been a couple of urban terror decks, right? That use, I mean, if you think of the tower and you think of just, well, the tower, you know, or you think of things like that, there have been some there have been, there are a couple of urban TA decks, some better than others, but you know, people are, and this is what I think about the cultural infrastructure. People are starting to build that kind of thing. Right. And start to see these symbolisms in these, in these places. So, yeah, that, I like, I like that. What Joh said about sort of the urban sublime and what mark, you said about kind of these museums that hold all this, this cultural stuff and. You know, I often think of, of paganism in terms of the symbolic, right. Rather than you know, I'm not much for, for ancient, ancient roots. That, that seems a little racist to me. I'm more into thinking about the future and thinking about things like, you know, if I think about superhuman minds, right? I mean, the city itself is like a high of mind. You know, the city itself is a super organism. It's a superhuman intelligence. Right. And, and things like me, I'm just like a little sell in this organism. I'm passing through contributing something to it, but the, the amount of energy that flows through San Francisco or New York, or, you know, something like that is astonishing. Mark: Yes. Eric: And it's it's information too. I mean, places like, okay. New York, Tokyo, you know, San Francisco, you know, are, are some of the most information rich places on the planet. Mark: London, Hong Kong. Eric: Right. And, and so if you think of like, you know, you think of a deity like mercury or somebody like, or thought, or Glen, you know, these, you may think of these divine minds and these patterns of information. I mean, I prefer to leave those Dees in the past where they lived, but now you look at super, if you want a symbol, cuz for me, a lot of this is symbolic. If you want symbolism for superhuman intelligence, you know, superhuman mind a superhuman agency, right? I mean the place to one place to find that there are other places, but one place to find that is in the, you know, the rich information flows the density of information flows in cities. Mark: Mm-hmm Eric: Right? You, you can really, you can, you don't have to think like, I mean, Okay. I lived in New York city. This means I am part of something that is immense it's 400 years old. It's I don't know how long it'll last, but you know, so many people have contributed to it and you're there you feel it you're like, yeah, I there's this thing, you know, it's immense, I'm a tiny little part of this huge thing. So. Mark: and, and I think that's really well said, and it also, it extends beyond the bounds of New York city so much. I mean, I, I think about watching old movies where pretty much everybody came from New York or their immediate family came through New York. It's like the entire culture of the United States is deeply informed by this urban collective experience that then spread throughout the rest of the country. I was thinking about, you were talking about culture and of course, city is where the culture is, right? I mean, there's culture everywhere, but big cities are there're places where it's easier for people that are cultural creatives to make it. There are more opportunities for them to, to make a living. And it reminded me, I've lived in two big cities in my life. I've lived in San Francisco and in Barcelona. And one of the things that attracted me the most about both of those places is busking in the underground. Eric: Oh  Mark: the, the caliber of musical performance that you can experience. Just at random, you know, by stepping off of a train and suddenly finding yourself surrounded by it is it's like this, this spontaneous moment of, you know, truly religious kind of joy to me. And it's, it's one of the things that leaps immediately to mind to me, when I think about my fondness for those cities, right. Eric: Yeah. I mean, I, I think, and maybe Joh can speak to this too. I mean, the you know, thinking of those of those spaces where you can go and, and, and hear music and often the, the cultural thing is, is mixtures of cultures too, like in San Francisco or Chicago or New York. I mean, I can, you know, there are all these little I think, was it, Joh, did you mention Centia, did somebody mention that somebody mentioned that, but you know, there are all these, there are all these, you know, Afro-Caribbean cultures that have come into New York city and you could find all these little things, like all over the streets. You know, and they have some, you know, Afro-Caribbean significance and there they are. Right. And so you already find lots of, you know, there are lots of alternatives to a dominant, this sort of dominant Christian narrative. There are lots of alternatives already in these urban spaces, right. That come from from other other sources. Joh: I was actually also thinking about the, the mixture of different cultures. When thinking about some of the places that I like to visit there, there are a couple of neighborhoods in downtown Manhattan that I like to just I'm drawn to them. And I just like to walk around in and think about. The history and evolution of culture in those neighborhoods, like the history of music, of counterculture, of the different immigrant communities that settled there over time and everywhere you look, you can see little remnants of all this history from like a German inscription in the brick facade of a building or a plaque telling you that Charlie Parker lived in that building a 24-hour Ukrainian diner founded by refugees in the sixties that like still you know, still you can't, you it's always a weight. So there's that, there's that kind of magic too. And then I think just walkable urbanism in general, like increases the likelihood that you'll have chance encounters with not just different cultures, but like different kinds of people who are living different lives from you. Like. There's a community of local businesses and neighbors, and then the city workers, and it's all happening all in the same space. Like there's no alleyways in New York city. There's like two in the whole city. And so all that stuff is, and activity is just running up against itself and like keeping the environment running and thriving and kind of with this magical energy all the time. Mark: Yeah. And, and when you think about that, when you think about all those different cultures and different sort of value systems and so forth, all kind of coming together and finding a way to coexist, then it's no surprise that it's the cities that are the blue parts of the United States, right? It's like in the cities, people have figured out how to get along, cuz they have to, there's no choice about it, Joh: Yeah. And to coexist peacefully. Mark: And eventually to thrive. I mean, not, not just to coexist, but I to actually have melding of cultures and you know, new and interesting combinations of stuff like jazz, for example in new Orleans and New York and Chicago. Anyway, I, I don't know where I was going with that, but it, it occurs to me that the, the values that we associate with paganism, right? The inclusiveness, the tolerance, the the appreciation for beauty and culture and diversity and all those things, they really thrive more in the cities than they do in the, in the rural areas, which we think of as more natural, right. Eric: Yeah. I mean, that's a weird, you know, you find that kind of, to me, very, almost paradoxical or contradictory view in a lot of paganism, which is like, oh, the rural environment is the pagan environment. And you're like, no, the rural environment is filled with fundamentalists, man. Mark: Well, not entirely, not, not Yucca. Eric: nah, well, I mean sure, but, but still it's it's yeah, I mean, if you have a sort of polycentric culture where you've got lots of different cultures and lots of different religious ideas and lots of TISM lots of mixing of different religious ideas and you've got, you know, intelligent raccoons and, and you know, sparrows and yeah. Racoons have little hands, you know, they're learning to work stuff. They're gonna, that's what we're that's what's gonna take over after we're gone. You know, so, so I think that that's already seeing the multiplicity. I, I think of paganism often in terms of multiplicity, instead of, you know, unity, it's like, yeah, there are, there are many perfections and many ways to bring those together and, and integrate them into a system without, you know, reducing 'em to a, to like everybody has to act the same, you know? And I do think so. I think in, in that sense mark, what you said yeah. About cities having that, all those combinations right. Are really good. Really good. I don't think we're quite there yet in trying to figure out what, you know, the sort of next culture is gonna be, but won't happen in my lifetime, but I, I hope it will happen. So. Yucca: One of the things to kind of shift a little bit that, or some qualities that are usually not associated with urban environments that sometimes are, are highly valued in certain pagan circles are things like solitude and stillness and quietness. And those are things that I'm curious. Do you feel like. It is a fair assessment. That that's not something that really happens in urban environments. And also, is that something important in your practice? If it is, how is that something that is a pagan you, you search out or cultivate in your life? Joh: This made me think of something really specific. So it's actually, I feel like one thing that happens here is there's so much stimuli going on all the time. That it's actually, for me, at least fairly easy to, to, to be find myself in solitude. I, I live alone and You know, during the pandemic, especially, I didn't see anybody. And it was, it was very quiet. Actually, if you, you know, if you live in a more busy part of the city and you have an apartment facing the back of the building, that's like a sign that it's gonna be quiet. It actually can get really quiet here, surprisingly. But one thing that I don't know, I think this happened in multiple places around the world, in the beginning of the pandemic, but this, this thing started happening here where at 7:00 PM every day, everyone would leave their apartment and go outside and start clapping for the healthcare workers and essential workers who were actually having to still leave their apartments and help the city run. And this happened for months and months, every day at 7:00 PM, everyone would go outside and start clapping and, and it really helped, I think with the. Precarious kind of mental health situation that we were all finding ourselves in because we were trapped in these tiny boxes for so long, like scared of going outside because of the density and everything. And it helped us feel kind of alone together in a way. So that, that goes veers a little bit off of what you were asking, but I think it's actually not that it's pretty easy to find that piece and that, that that quiet and solitude if you if you try, like, not during a global pandemic, but but yeah, that just my mind kind of went there when you asked that. Eric: I think that was, that was a, a great place to go. I mean, I remember that we didn't go outside, but we leaned out our windows and banged on pots and pans, you know? And that's that was kind of a collective ritual. Mark: Yeah. Eric: I mean, it kind of, I mean, it was a collective ritual and I think, you know, I, I wonder about some of that solitude or something. I mean, certainly in, in lots of urban areas, there's a lot more, I think maybe I'm maybe I'm wrong here, but you know, a lot of collective action, there's a lot of political awareness political activity. And maybe that solitude, isn't quite what people are wanting. Right. Because it's not like I'm gonna go into myself and, and I'm gonna go, I mean, cities face outward, right. I mean, and that energy gets radiated outward. And I, I probably, if I had to think of my most well, you know, the two very pagan moments in New York city, both were musical. One was when I heard the band high long in New York, which was. You know, almost surreal in the, in the, the juxtaposition of this, this high, long shamanistic, you know, whatever they're trying to bring up. And it's in, it's in a theater in Manhattan and there are thousands of us there and we're all chanting and clapping and dancing and stuff like that. But probably even, even a little more, you know, pagan than high, long was like one time when I went to a Patty Smith concert in Manhattan. And that was just an, you know, an, I don't like to use this word, but that was intense. You know? I mean, that was something that was, I've been to a bunches of concerts and that was, you know, everyone just collectively this was, I think the 50th anniversary of her horses album and that's what they played. Mark: Oh, Eric: Right. And everyone knew all the words of course, and everyone was simply. Well, like in this unison and that's already you know, Patty Smith's already like, what space is she in with with these kinds of cultural things? You know? So I, I think there's a lot of opportunities for those kinds of collective mu I mean, music is one, art is one political, you know, political gatherings are be they protests or just activist gatherings.  Mark: Dancing thing. Eric: Dancing. Yeah. All those kinds of activities really happen in, in cities. So I wouldn't go with the no, I mean, yeah, like, I mean, Joh was right. You can be solitary in the city if you want to. I mean, it's probably more solitary there than anywhere else. Right. Because it's certainly in New York because you know, if you're not engaged, like nobody's gonna talk to you. Mark: Yeah. Eric: Right. I mean, they're gonna leave you alone. And but I, I do think that there is an enormous amount of col I mean, that's the point of a city it's collective activity. Right. You know, I lived on a farm. I know what I know what rural isolation is. Like I, you know, I don't wanna do that ever, ever again, so yeah, I dunno if that answers that, but there you go. Mark: You know, it occurs to me when you talk about that. When I was, when I was in late high school and, and into my first couple of years of college, I was really into punk rock. And of course I was living, you know, very close to San Francisco and there was a huge punk rock scene there at the Maha gardens and some other places. And so I saw a ton of shows and one of the things that always struck me was these bands never come 60 miles north to where I live. They, they don't leave an urban environment. Right. Because punk lives in the cities and and many of those concerts were truly ecstatic experiences. Eric: Right. Mark: I, I mean, the mosh pit was just this glorious experience of mutual trust, where we knew we weren't going to hurt one another, but we were going to fling one another around. My partner NAEA tells a story about being in a pit in Philadelphia where somebody lost a contact lens and the entire pit sort of went who to make a space so that they could find their contact lens. And they actually did find their contact lens. So, you know, it very, I mean, there's a, there's a very abrasive kind of quality to the punk aesthetic, but really people who cared about one another and, you know, were, were part of something. And that was very much an urban experience. Yucca: Hmm. Eric: Right, right. I mean, I think you, can you get that kind of you get those kinds of energies and a lot of that so far is kind of aesthetic, right? Music, art, dancing, things like architecture, you know? And, and it'll be interesting to see, you know, people translating that more. You know, that's why, I mean, I think for instance, sort of the pagan music is really interesting and the ways that that can go. And different kinds of artistic expressions. And one of the things we didn't really talk about, which I think of as kind of pagan is sort of the, the visionary community, right? The transformational festivals and, and, you know, visionary art and that stuff, which to, to my mind, is in entirely a pagan culture, a pagan subculture. And that's, that's there too. Right? A lot of that is in urban areas. Also in New York city, there was an San Francisco too, I believe, but they're a big, you know, I think of stoicism as, as a pagan movement, contemporary stoicism, and there's an enormous enormously rich stoic groups in in New York. San Francisco comes to mind and a few, there are a few other cities that have, but yeah, San Francisco certainly has all this transformative tech stuff.  Mark: And the, the whole burning man phenomenon, which is really interesting when you think about it. Because a lot of the people who go to burning, man, don't come from urban centers, but they have to build a city Eric: right. Mark: in order to have. The kind of crucible of creativity that they want. And burning man is a very pagan experience in, in at least the one time I was there. It definitely was not necessarily in a worshipful kind of way, but in a, in a cultural way, the, the kind of mutuality and celebration and expressiveness and creativity that you have in those kinds of environments are they remind me of the pagan community. And of course there's a lot of people there who are pagans. Eric: Oh yeah. Yucca: A lot of rituals. Mark: Yeah. Yeah. Eric: Yeah, that's gotta be like a paradigm case of how to do religion differently than it was done before. Right. And yeah, I mean, I teach a lot about burning man and you know, I always say to my students, I'm like, well, what do you think a new religion would look like? It's not gonna look like the old ones, you know? And you find, I mean, there's a lot of that around, I mean, that's, that's obviously closely connected with San Francisco, but there is a lot of that around not just burning man, but there's a, there's lots of places around New York city that are filled with that kind of stuff. I mean, yeah. I'm thinking in particular of like Alex Gray's chapel of sacred mirrors, Mark: mm-hmm Eric: which, which used to be in Manhattan, Joh, did you ever see that? Joh: No, I didn't. Unfortunately. Eric: It used to be in Manhattan. And now it's moved up the river into the Hudson valley and COVID kind of shut it down, but that guy used to have like weekly I'll just say raves at his place. Right. Wa in Weiner's falls check an hour north of the city. So, so that stuff is all around. Right. And it will be interesting to see if it gets more, you know, as things go on, if it gets, I mean, maybe it will just remain at a kind of level where it's people doing aesthetic things. Right. And they'll come together in these kind of groups and maybe it'll get more organized. I don't know. Mark: Hmm. Eric: Yeah, go to go to, Wappinger go to the chapel. I can't wait till the chapel sacred mirrors opens up again. I went with my, my friend, my friend of mine, Pete, and there was something about, I don't know what, you know, iowaska or something. And Pete looked at me and said, I didn't think this guy would be into drugs if you know, Alex Mark: Alex Gray. Really? Eric: yeah. It's like, Mark: the man who envisions gigantic halos of color all around the human form. Eric: you know, like 47 eyeballs, you know, like yeah, right. A little irony. But you know, that's, that's you know, it's all around and you know, maybe people don't conceive of it as pagan in a unified way, but maybe they should. Right. So we'll, we'll see where that goes. Mark: And I think, you know, the other part of it is that people are looking for rituals for, for shared communal experiences. Some of which we've just been talking about, but even people that are doing rituals in a more formally pagan kind of way, they have a much easier time finding others of like mind in a city than they do in an area like mine. For example, even though I'm close to San Francisco and there's a pretty large population of pagans here there's exactly one atheopagan other than me living in my county to my knowledge. Oh, that's not true four, there, there there's four of us, including me. And that's a, you know, there's half a million people living in my county, so yeah. Cities become this focus of such energy and, and collaboration. Eric: Yeah, I think they might. I mean, I, I, you know, there's probably like, you know, 7 million atheopagan in, in New York city. They just don't call themselves that. Mark: Huh? Eric: Right. And I think that's an inter I don't know if that's quite true, but it's, I think an interesting point, right? That you have people that are maybe nominally secular, but yet they do all these kinds of things. Right. And they don't I mean, I make contact with this through my students. Right. Who don't identify as, you know, pagan or atheists, but yet they're doing all sorts of they, you know, if you ask them, do they believe in God? No, but they don't identify as atheists. It's just, they just, they just don't do that stuff, but then they do all kinds of other things. Right. And you know, they, they do all sorts of, I mean, witchcraft was a kind of popular thing. I don't know if it still is, but they do things right. And they have all sorts of little rituals. Some of which are, are, come from family, traditions, others, you know, they do strange things with crystals, with their cell phones. Right. Those kinds of things could easily become more you know, a little deeper and a little more widespread where people start to think organically like, oh, what? And sometimes they might just not say, no, I'm not doing anything religious because they think of religion as Christianity and maybe they're right. And maybe that's right. And so I do find it an interesting point. That you say like, yeah, there might be a lot of atheopagan around you. They just don't call themselves that, Mark: right. Eric: you know, and they don't, you know, I mean, I know Masimo is a big leader of the stoic community and we just have this debate about whether or not he was a pagan. He'd be like, no, cuz that's like star Hawk. And I was like, no, dude, you're reviving, you're reviving an ancient pagan way of life, which is, oh, by the way, your own family history by your own admission, you know? And he's kind of like, like, guess that's true, you know? But he wouldn't call himself a pagan. Right. But he's doing the thing. So I, I do. And all those people out in San Francisco who do like the transformative text stuff and. A lot of the kind of consciousness hacking and things that goes into like some Americanized forms of Buddhism and things like that. That's, you know, there just might not be a single word for it yet. Mark: Sure sure. And all the, all the tech millionaires going to south America for iowaska ceremonies, you know, I mean, these, these are not the, the men who founded IBM in the 1950s and all wore an identical blue suit with a white shirt and tie. You know, this is, this is a very, very different culture that we've got now. Eric: Yeah. I think so. Was there, Joh, were you gonna say it, that it looked like you were gonna say a thing. Joh: The thing you were the thing you said about, you know, there, there might be 7 million Athens here, but they don't call it that. I just keep thinking about that because there's so many parts about like the set of values and the just human universal human needs, or like seeking for community for for ritual. The I've, I've seen acts of service, like in the past couple of years, like just becoming more community based here, like mutual aid, community fridges things like that. And, and what you were describing, like not, not your IBM founder, you know, people kind of looking for more right. Trying to. To look for more meaning it's all these little pieces kind of just existing at the same time, but not being named in any way. Eric: Yeah, or people aren't quite sure. That's why I think that, you know, building a cultural infrastructure, you know, some way to fit things together that says, oh, you guys are all have a lot in common. Right. I don't Joh, maybe, you know, maybe you're tapped into the secret networks. I mean, I don't know, like allegedly there's a zillion you know, iowaska rituals, like all the time in New York or there were before the pandemic. I don't know what the Panda, I mean, the pandemic transformed so much. There are big psychedelic conferences in New York, right? The the horizons which I've gone to. And but I, I don't know if this stuff is all, is all, you know, secret or, or not. Mark: Well, it seems as though we're at a time where culture and particularly the monopoly of Christianity has really shattered. And of course it's rebelling right now and trying to lock down everything it possibly can, as it loses its grip on the population. But there are all these fragments of things that are kind of floating around. It's like the accretion disc around a star, you know, Those things are going to, to glom onto one another and get bigger and bigger. And some of them will just spin off into space and be their own thing or dissolve. But I feel like nontheistic paganism is a kind of an organizing principle that a lot of these things can fit under because it provides meaning it provides pleasurable activities that people find joyful, provides opportunities for people to be expressive and to create family in whatever form that is meaningful and helpful to them. So it's, it's kind of an exciting time and I, I agree with you, Eric. We're not gonna see the outcome in our lifetimes. I don't think, but this, I think we're at a really pivotal time in this moment. And so working to be a culture creator is a really exciting thing. Eric: Yeah, I think that's true. And I, I mean, sure. I mean, I think that you know, and I don't know what to make of this as a, you know, an American who's growing older, but yeah, the, the sort of angry Christian nationalists trying to lock down what they can. And I don't know what it's like to live in, you know, Tennessee or Georgia or Indiana. I lived in the Northeast and, you know, Pennsylvania's an interesting case too, but I mean, you know, New York and north and east, it's like, Christianity's gone. Mark: Yeah. Eric: It's like, it's not here anymore. And I don't know if California or the west coast is that way. Certainly you have pockets here and there, but what a strange, yeah, that's just strange, Mark: After 2000 years of complete hegemony, right? Eric: Well, right. And you know, how are people living their lives around that? I mean, one of the things I like to do is catalog the existence of stone circles in the United States, you know? And like they're all over the place. I just found one like three miles from where I am now, Mark: Wow. Eric: know? I mean, and so what are people doing? Like what, Mark: It's a lot of work to build a stone circle. They must be doing something. Yucca: Is this is this in a park. Eric: No, this is on private land, up in the Hudson valley, you know, and I, and I just, just learned about it and you know, so I, I, I think we're all gonna, my prediction is we're everybody's gonna smoke weed and look at birds that's gonna be the, that's gonna be the thing, you know, bird. Now he's a bird, you know, now that now that weed is legal, but yeah. Where's this gonna go, Joh? You're young. It's up to you. Mark: Yucca is young Eric: Yucca is young too. That's right. You guys are young. Not, not is old, old foggy like us. Mark: Yeah. Eric: So what are you gonna do? I telescopes you got it all there. Yucca: Oh, yeah, I'm a science teacher. that's this is my classroom back here. Yeah. Eric: Oh, all right. Mark: Well, this has been an incredible conversation and I know we could go on for hours. But I think it's probably a good point for us to kind of draw down for this episode. And I would imagine we're gonna get a lot of really positive response from this episode. And we may ask to have you back to talk more about these things, cuz it's, it's really been just wonderful and super interesting talking with both of you. Yucca: Thank you for joining us so much to think about. Eric: Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for having us. Thanks for having Joh: Yeah, thank you so much. Us on, this was super fun to, to reflect on and think about, and talk about in this group. So thank you. Mark: You're very welcome. And of course we welcome feedback and questions from our listeners. The email address is the wonder podcast, QS, gmail.com. That's the wonder podcast, QS, gmail.com. So we hope to hear from you have a great week, everybody, and we'll be back next week.  

On the podcast I talk with Eric about the value destruction of App Tracking Transparency, the limitations of SKAdNetwork, and how to thrive as an app developer in this new paradigm.My guest today is Eric Seufert. Eric has deep operating experience, having worked in growth and strategy roles at consumer tech companies such as Wooga and Rovio, but he also founded and sold a marketing business intelligence company, Agamemnon, and is an active investor in the mobile gaming and ad tech categories. Eric has a depth and breadth of experience with mobile apps and games that few can match. Over the past year Eric has written extensively about App Tracking Transparency and the future of mobile advertising on his trade blog, Mobile Dev Memo.In this episode, you'll learn: Will Apple's ATT be a net loss for Apple? Can SKAdNetwork be saved, and does Apple want to save it? Is focusing on organic traffic a flawed strategy? What does the future of app install ads look like? Links & Resources Rovio Snapchat Apple's Private Relay Tim Cook Outbrain Taboola AllTrails SubClub AllTrails podcast episode Stitcher Eric Seufert's Links Follow Eric on Twitter Mobile Dev Memo Heracles Freemium Economics: Leveraging Analytics and User Segmentation to Drive Revenue  Eric is on LinkedIn Follow us on Twitter: David Barnard Jacob Eiting RevenueCat Sub Club Episode Transcript00:00:00 David:Hello. I'm your host, David Bernard, and for the first time ever, I'm flying solo today. RevenueCat CEO, Jacob Eiting is busy CEO'ing.My guest today, is Eric Seufert. Having worked in growth and strategy roles at consumer tech companies such as Wooga and Rovio, Eric has a depth and breadth of experience with mobile apps and games that few can match. He also founded and sold marketing business intelligence company Agamemnon, and is an active investor in the mobile gaming and ad tech categories.Over the past year, Eric has written extensively about App Tracking Transparency and the future of mobile advertising on his trade blog, Mobile Dev Memo.On the podcast, I talk with Eric about the value destruction of App Tracking Transparency, the limitations of SKAdNetwork, and how to thrive as an app developer in this new paradigm.Hey Eric, thanks for being on the podcast.00:01:09 Eric:Thank you for having me on the podcast.00:01:11 David:So, we're going to start off with a bit of a dead horse that's been beaten over and over again. Apple's motivation in enacting App Tracking Transparency, but I did want to take kind of a different perspective on it. The most interesting thing to me personally about Apple's motivation with App Tracking Transparency is what it says about what they are going to do in the future.Did they build SKAdNetwork purposely handicapped, or did they not really understand how handicapped it was? Were they really trying to kill Facebook, or was that a kind of a side benefit? I think that their motivations are important, because it forecasts what changes they may or not make moving forward as they start to see the impact.So, I think the first thing I wanted to ask you is, how do you see Apple's reaction and how they perceive ATT to be going, now that we're seeing snap drop 25% after the quarterly earnings report, and see more of the disruption that you and others were predicting, but maybe Apple didn't quite see coming? How do you think Apple sees this going currently? And what does that say about the future of privacy on iOS?00:02:42 Eric:I think Apple's primary motivation was not to capture mobile advertising market share. I don't think that was a primary motivation. I think that's happened, and I think they expected that to happen, but I don't think that was the primary driver of this decision.What I think they wanted to do was, there's kind of like a big picture idea here, and then an immediate consequence idea. I think what Apple did not like, was that they had kind of lost control over content discovery on the iPhone.When the App Store was first launched, that was how you discovered apps. It was through going to the App Store, and some small part search, but then in large part just like the editorial curation that Apple exposes there. That changed over the years, and up until the announcement, or the enactment of of ATT, the way that people discovered apps was through advertising, and primarily Facebook advertising.Apple totally lost control. The content that people interacted with on their phones was not the result of any deliberate decision on Apple's part or some deliberate consideration. It just happened to be whatever could scale ads the best. Whatever companies could scale their ads the most efficiently, that's what people interacted with. That's what became dominant on the platform, and Apple really had no say in that.Short term, narrow aperture view of this, they just wanted to regain control of that. They wanted to be the kingmakers. They wanted to be the tastemakers; the people that decided—the party that decided—what became popular on the iPhone and how the iPhone was used.And I mean, that's, it's, if you've worked in, in gaming, especially, but if you've worked in mobile apps at all and you've ever had to go and, you know, go, go through the whole process of pitching your app to Apple, and pleading for featuring You know, that that's what they want.They, they like to having that control because that allowed them to percolate their new iOS features into the app community through almost horsetrading it's like, you want featuring, We'd be happy to give you featuring, but you've got to integrate X, Y, Z thing into your app.Once you do that, we're happy to feature you. that, that was sort of the, that was the, the, the negotiating process. You know, that that process, even that process itself became less important and less prominent in the life of a developer over the last few years, In 2012 to 2015 that's what you did every time you were launching a new app, or even if you're doing a major update, you flew, you flew to San Francisco, you went to Cupertino, you went into a, conference room at Apple HQ and you pitch somebody.That just stopped being something that people did. Like just people realized that, even if we get featuring, it's not going to be that meaningful for our business, what we really need to be able to nail what we, what we have to do. Our success is dependent on our ability to scale the product with paid advertising, you know, and explicitly, you know, specifically through, through Facebook.So, I think that was the primary motivation to regain that control right now. I think there's a bigger picture idea here. There's a bigger picture motivation or, or like, projection here, which is that, you know, we're, we're moving into a paradigm where, you know, the phone you have, the, the device you have that you consume content with is totally unconstrained, in terms of what it accesses, right?Like, and, and how it accesses content. And that's what that's, that's the sort of, that's the behavioral, norm that, that people are moving into, they just expect their favorite stuff to be available from whatever device they have in their hand, at that moment, as long as it's connected to the internet, they expect to be able to connect to Disney to Hulu, to Netflix, to Facebook, to anything, they use every day.You get to a point where, you know, if you run this gatekeeping platform, like at the App Store or Google play If, if, if users have leapfrogged that paradigm into no, my favorite content is always available. It's, you know, sort of like, it's just, just persistent in the cloud and I should be able to access it however I want at any, at any given point in time.Then you've lost control of that sort of, of that gatekeeper positioning. I feel like what Apple wanted to do they, they, know that that's inevitable. we'll get there, but they wanted to prolong this dominance and the prominence of the App Store in terms of, you know, the consumer relationship, that's the first stop you've got to go through them to get to the content. because then that also, like that also provides them with some leverage over the, over the developer. And I think w w we've I think we've probably accelerated. But, but maybe not, maybe this, maybe this, you know, buys two to three more years of, okay, well, I have an iPhone that means I go through the App Store to get content, right.Or I have an Android. Maybe that means I go through Google play to get to content. And not that like, this is it. Matter what device I'm using, I'm using my Samsung TV or my iPhone and my iPad or my Facebook portal or whatever, or my, my, Amazon, echo. I want to get to the content that I have available to me in a persistent way in the cloud.Right. And so I think that was, that was also the primary motivation, or that was part of the primary motivation, but that was like, sort of like the bigger picture consequence of it.00:08:18 David:Right. I mean, where do you put, Apple's kind of stated motivation of privacy in this hierarchy of, of motivations and, and outcomes because, you know, a lot of people have said, oh, well, Apple was clearly acting anti competitively to favor their own ad business and crush these other ad businesses. It was, you know, primarily driven by the greed to expand their ad revenue.And then I think yours is really interesting as far as like the control, but then of course Apple goes and just in the quarter results recently and has stated over and over again. That it was 100% privacy motivated. do you just not buy that00:08:58 Eric:No, not at all. And I don't, I don't necessarily even think at this moment that consumer privacy, has been benefited or protected as a result of this. Right. And we can get into that in a second, but you know, I've been publishing a lot about, they're still allowing fingerprint and they said they wouldn't, that's in the policy.Right. It's explicit. Like there's no ambiguity there and they're allowing for it. Right. And they're not policing. And they could, because they've done it in the past. And so I think if you want it to be protective of privacy, That would be one of the things that you would prioritize is, preventing that from happening.00:09:33 David:And you don't think that? Not that I mean, diving into fingerprinting real quick, do you think that. It's potentially that they're just delaying the enforcement to kind of smooth some of the disruption that tra App Tracking Transparency has already caused it because them not enforcing it immediately doesn't mean they're not going to enforce it.So, but I find it baffling as well. That they're not. So do you see them enforcing it sooner do you think that this really is an indication that they don't actually care about privacy and that this is not ever going to be enforced?00:10:08 Eric:They can enforce it at some point and like they're there, there wise, like I think kind of a widespread. That in the developer community, that there was going to be a grace period. Right. They would introduce NTT, but they're going to allow for fingerprinting for some amount of time, because, you know, if, if you just, you know, made this very radical change and it was like absolute from day one, the impact would have been even more severe than, than what we saw.So I, there was a belief that there would be a grace period, but you know, we're going on like four months now. Right. And, and the thing is, you know, my, my sense was when, as soon as they, because they, you know, they talked about private relay at WWDC this year, I was like, oh, okay. That's how they do it.Right. Because, and I've talked a bunch about how it would be clunky to police fingerprinting through App Store review the store review process. Right. I talked about that in a piece. I just wrote two weeks ago or last week, and it would be clunky, but they could have introduced us in private relay.I thought that that's what they were going to do. Or at the very least they would roll private relay out. Cause it applies to, you know, safari traffic now. And they would say, look, well, we have to reach parody. Our treatment of the web and or treatment had been app traffic. And so therefore, you know, maybe for whatever technical reason we can't, we can't, obfuscate the IP address of in app traffic, it'd be too expensive or it's a technical challenge that we haven't solved yet.But like, this is the moment, you know, ad tech when you must stop fingerprinting. And I think if they said that, you know, these ad tech companies would, right, because the way that they've sort of implemented this in a lot of these solutions is it's like an option, right? Like they say, you can turn it off if you want.Right. Cause I think that these ad tech companies are surprised. They thought fingerprinting was going to be. More we're policed early on, maybe not on day one, but you'd get like two weeks a month. and so they kind of introduced this as like an optional feature. Right. And then, you know, and they, they presented it as like a, Hey, it's a feature for developers if they want it.And so, you know, it's, it's something that they could switch off and they, they they're ready to switch off. I think. So I think even if, if Apple just sort of like, you know, kind of pantomime those motions, people would stop doing it because, okay. It's, it's actually, you know, it's sort of like actually against policy now versus just before where it was like ignored, but, you know, I, I thought they were gonna introduce in iOS 15 for that reason, or at least again, like, just make the, go through the motions of saying that, that it's, it's not allowed, but, but so just, just back Betsy, it wasn't about like, where does privacy sit in the, in the sort of list of motivations?I think it's probably so my, my, the heart, the hard time that I have with like, reconciling this idea that like, and you hear this a lot, like Apple cares about policy that people say that privacy, Apple cares about product. How could it have Apples on a person Apple. Apple's a corporate structure.There's there's however many employees at Apple. They don't all agree on things. Right. Who and Tim cook is not a dictator. He can't just run the company like that. Apple shareholders, have some control. His board has some control. Right. And so, you know, at least they have influence. And so like, the Apple as a, it can't have is it doesn't have a monolithic opinion about stuff.It's not an entity in its own. Right. I I just don't buy this idea that a company can care about some abstract concept. Right? Like, here's another question for you. Apple makes the Apple watch, It's a health tracker. Does Apple care about your health Do they, are they really concerned? Are they genuinely, you know, invested in your health Or do they want to sell something. so the idea with privacy is okay. It gives us an opportunity to strike a juxtaposition juxtaposition against Android, which you know, has, is, is perceived, I believe, as less privacy-safe but even Android has gone to great lengths or Google has gone to great lengths to bring privacy to the forefront in Android.A lot of it is about informing consumers about their data being accessed, but still there. They've done some things. Right. So anyway, I just, I don't believe that a company, a corporate entity can care about an abstract concept. Right. putting that aside, what does privacy buy them It buys them that juxtaposition, and then it buys them cover, It buys them cover to do all this other stuff. Right. And then to, and then they spin up this big narrative that probably helps us sell iPhones. Because you know what I00:14:07 David:Or future AR glasses 00:14:10 Eric:Exactly 00:14:10 David:Some ways,Positioning themselves, they they care about privacy insofar as it's an incredible marketing tool for them. it, gives them cover for future devices. They become more and more and more and more private. this thing you wear on your wrist biometric sensors and tracking your sleep and everything else, customers are going to feel more comfortable wearing AR glasses that have cameras on.When it's Apple branded, than when it's Facebook branded, there's been backlash with the Ray-Ban, glasses from Facebook. So, yeah, I get, you I, you know, the Apple fanboy in me wants to believe that, you know, Apple you know, wants to do good in the world, but I've, since lost my Apple religion, but I, but I do think to a certain extent that they care about they do care about privacy whether or not any of that's motivated by Goodwill or otherwise it's incredible marketing for them.That being the case, you know, and this is where maybe our opinions diverge, or at least how we interpret some of, of what's been going on. I still am of the opinion, as naive as it may be that that privacy was a primary motivation for them, whether they're altruistic or marketing or, whatever other reasons they have to be to be positioning themselves this way.I still think that that that was primary and, and that, I don't know that they even fully understood or expected some of the. the things that have been happening, I think they thought SKAdNetwork was a better solution than it actually is. I don't know that they expected to see a company like snap that is actually fairly aligned with them, at least, in marketing and public perception as being a more privacy-focused company to see this company that has been reading and talking positively about App Tracking Transparency and see them drop 25% in a single day, because, and then say specifically it's because SKAdNetwork isn't delivering.I still think personally. This has more to do with Apple, not understanding and not listening to the industry, which we've seen for decades, Apple doesn't listen, they're not good at receiving outside feedback on roadmaps, on, on their APIs, on anything else. They think they know what to do.And they think as a product company, they can just build this product bring it to the world. And it's going to be the best thing since sliced bread SKAdNetwork is just another. Yeah. Another example of them trying that approach and then just falling flat on their face. I think this is important because if that is the case and if they really, if the primary motivation really was privacy, then maybe we do see an SKAdNetwork 3.0, that's way better than this current one.After they realized they've destroyed tens of billions of dollars of value, and also potentially handicapped their own platform because as ad efficiency goes down and as apps struggle to gain traction, they lose too. So, yeah, I mean, I guess just, I'd love to hear your kind of response to that. Cause I know we probably disagree on this a bit.00:17:37 Eric:I guess it doesn't really matter. Like it, you know, if we, I don't know, at this point it kind of seems like semantics a little bit. Cause it's like, well, all they care about privacy because privacy is good marketing messages. But my point is like, I don't think they genuinely care whether people's data is being accessed by advertising networks.Right. I don't think they cared about that to the, to the degree that, it didn't impact. It was, it was, it was happening sort of unawares, right? Like, or, you know, that these users were like sort of unawares, once it became, like a, like a sort of social rallying cry around, you know, Facebook and, you know, it's the congressional testimony and you're listening on our devices.And then once it became something that I think that they could, you know, exploit the insured, then maybe they care about it because it is a differentiator for the products and they can help them sell more products. Right. But, but I think so, first of all, so we are on a scanner 3.0, they released 3.0 3.0 is just like a minor improvement.So 3.0 added view through attribution. And I think it added one more thing. And then also with, I was 15, they allowed the post-bacc to be sent directly to the advertiser, not just the networks. I mean, those are improvements, but I don't see them continuing to do. S K I know work. I just, I just don't see that, but I think I do. I do agree. I agree with you that, that they didn't understand how consequential that this would be to the advertising. I think it's an example of like the left hand, not talking to the right hand.Apple is like a super secretive organization, not just to the outside world, right. Internally Apple teams are very secretive. Right. And, you know, I, I don't know that the App Store team was talking to the iTunes team. I, I mean, I don't even really know how that, how, how this sort of corporate structure separates those two teams.But my sense is that like the App Store team, the people that work with developers, Aware of this, like, and I I've been told that I've been told that they learned about it at WWDC two years ago. Right. And then they got up, they had to field a bunch of angry emails and phone calls. Right. you know, I think, there, there wasn't a whole lot of consensus internally around what the impact of this would be.I think the impact was underestimated. And to be honest, I don't think they would have released something if they knew that it was going to wipe out, you know, just a late, a quarter of snaps market cap in a day. Right. I don't think they would have released something if they knew it was going to annihilate a fifth of Zynga's market cap in a day last quarter, you know what I mean?I don't think they, you know, and what we saw with Facebook was that there's like this kind of slow erosion of, of, of market cap, you know, from, from like the all time high, a couple months ago. but you know, th the damage hasn't been just, just in terms of stock price, hasn't been as, as, as severe to Facebook, as it has to some of these other.You know, who weren't really doing the things that Apple wanted, you know, to sort of, to mitigate. Right. So I, I don't think that they fully, you know, first of all, they didn't, you know, workshop this with advertisers. Like I know that to be true, or, or I believe that to be true, unless some people did it in like, you know, deep secret and they've never revealed it, but I don't think they, I don't think that's true because I've talked to a lot of people.No one, no one was consulted about this that I've spoken with. you know, I don't think that they really truly grasped how sort of like fundamental performance advertising was, or is to a lot of these businesses, right. In terms of, they're just, they're, they're sort of, you know, operational success.Right. And so I think, because of that sort of differential between. I think what they thought was going to be the result of this and what the actual result was. You know, I, I feel like that does call into question, you know, not only just the wisdom of this, but you know, how well they can defend it, right.When, you know, against maybe some, some, some lines of inquiry, you know, that, that are, that are sort of like, you know, kind of a more powerful and, sort of socially instrumental than, than ours than mine are then, then app advertisers or app developers. Right.I think they've, they've invited a lot of questions about this through, through, through the severity of the impact that we've witnessed over the last couple of weeks and months.00:21:35 David:And that's where I totally agree with that. And that's been my perception as well. And I talk to folks as well, is that Apple didn't fully understand the implications. And if there were people inside Apple who had a better understanding of what might play out, they didn't have enough of a seat at the table.And that a lot of this was just ivory tower thinking was Apple building ski network thinking, oh, this is going to be a great solution with. Like you said, workshopping it with the people who would actually have to use it. And then, you know, coming up with a better solution. So then, then my question for you is, okay.You know, you were kind of chicken little for a year, the sky is gonna fall. The sky is gonna fall. The sky is gonna fall. I mean, you've been really one of the most vocal people about how big these impacts were going to be. And you had a lot of people in the industry saying, oh, it's not going to be that bad.It's not going to be that bad. Well, now the sky fell. I mean, you know, a public company having 25% of its market value wiped out in a day due to one specific policy from a platform like the sky is falling, you were right. But then so now Apple sees it. They can't, they can't avoid seeing it. What do they do from here?You said, they're not going to make SKAdNetwork better. You know, are they going to not police, fingerprinting to, continue to soften the blow? Like where does it go? That's that's, what's so interesting to me about okay, whatever their motivation, what they do in the future. In reaction to what's actually happening now that we're seeing actual results matters, you know, to, to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars.And, and one of the things I put in the notes to talk about is a lot of this value that's being destroyed is not accruing to Apple. It's not as if you know, a hundred billion dollars of market cap wiped out of Facebook and Google and snap and other folks, it's not like Apple is actually capturing that because they don't, they don't have the ad inventory.They don't they're, they're not a big player in the space. So, yeah. W where does Apple go from here if they painted themselves in a corner,00:23:38 Eric:Maybe, I mean, I think what I would, you know, if I was an Apple, I'd be worried about, you know, they've got a lot of theirs are, they're already under a lot of scrutiny, right. Like, you know,00:23:47 David:Right.00:23:48 Eric:What did the DOJ, what just three days ago, decided to re reopen the investigation in that, in the Apple, related to, to the way they operate the App Store.I just think it's really tough to, to maintain this line on one front while, you know, you're obviously having to lose ground on, on another front. Right. because as we've seen, like there's just been this steady trickle of them, you know, seeding ground developers or, giving up a lot of, you know, Exclusivity and, and, you know, PR preferential treatment they have with, with apps or operation, right.Like, it just feels like maybe it's maybe it's they felt like, well, that will, it we'll expand one area of that, that preferential treatment while we're sort of like forced to abandon other, areas of preferential treatment. But I don't know that they were, I don't, but that would only make sense if they actually really understood how dramatic the consequences of, of ADT would be, which I don't think they did.You know, I don't know. Maybe they have painted themselves into a corner. I mean, I don't know. So that's the thing about asking, I know work is like the way it was designed. It's got a lot of features that on their own would be smart, you know, tech, progressive privacy, protective, you know, mechanisms.Right. But in combination just renders this thing, like totally. Dysfunctional. And that's the problem because now if they go back and they get rid of any of these given features, so like, or not features, but restrictions, right. So let's say they say, okay, so first of all, I mean, and I'm assuming most people listening are at least familiar with this.I don't want to, I won't, I won't go into the whole thing, you know, description of Muscat network from zero, but let's say they give up on the privacy threshold, which would be weird because there's a privacy threshold for Apple search ads to be fair, but let's say they gave that up. Right. then, then, okay.You move a little bit towards, you know, something that, that is functional and helpful. but you're, you've, you've, you've made a pretty, sort of like very kind of public facing kind of Mia culpa decision, which I don't, you know, or announcement. Right.Which I don't know, that is an Apple's DNA to do that kind of thing.00:25:49 David:And giving up the privacy threshold would actually allow tracking, which is what they're saying, they're trying to prevent. So that's the other problem with giving much ground on some of these things with SKAdNetwork.00:26:01 Eric:Well, it could, it00:26:03 David:And that that's kind of the broader question is like, can S K I network even be saved and, you know, let's say regulators did come in and say, this was completely anti-competitive what's the solution.I mean, if you roll back and give unique identifiers to every app, you're going to have all the same unintended consequences that came with the IDFA. yeah, I mean, that's like four questions rolled into a statement, but, can I ask that network actually be saved while maintaining some level of privacy?00:26:32 Eric:Maybe, but I don't know that you do give up. So I don't, I don't think you totally Naval tracking. If you'd give up the privacy threshold, what you'd enable would be the advertiser would be able to link the specific campaign to an individual user in their data environment. Now, if they chose to share that with a third party, Platform or as platform, I guess that that would be their decision, I don't think by default it would sort of instantly, you know, make that trackable. Right. Cause all you're really doing is adding a little bit more context every post-bacc versus just some, because you already get, I mean, if you get rid of the privacy rest, it, that just means those NOLs go away.Right. And so you're able to get a little, you're able to track, you're able to sort of observe the less frequent, transactions. Right. Or just tell me what it is. If you tell me what it is that I can design around that. Right. But we don't even know if it's dynamic they've, they've apparently changed it like without telling anybody.And so all of a sudden the number of Knoll conversion values exploded. Right? I mean, that's the thing, just make it public because if you do that, then I'm going to say, you know what? Okay, I'm going to design my app, such that like. The people I care about are going to trigger this or not. Right. It's not something that's in its early funnel.It's something that it'll happen. You know, I can build my, I can, I can sort of like Intuit, you know, just through like kind of statistical modeling, what, where I need to place this in order for it to trigger the number of people that satisfies the privacy threshold, such that I get the data that I really need to make decisions.Cause right now you have no idea. And you know, I have no idea where to place that. What, what is that? Unless you just experiment a bunch of times, but, but even then it's, it's the, the broader environments to variable because the, the campaign could go up and down in terms of like DAU or DNA every day, you know what I mean?And then if they change it, then there's like a totally unknown exhaustion is variable there. Right? So it's impossible to tune your app such that you, you say, okay, look, I get it. You're not going to let me have. conversion value if fewer than 25 people did it. Well, I know how much traffic I'm driving through all these campaigns every day.So, so I need to consolidate my campaign, such that each one drives 400 in new, new installs every day, because I know that, you know, an eighth of the installs will trigger that thing, but those will be the users that really care about. Right. And if you did that, then at least I know, and I can design everything around that, but I don't even know.I don't even know if that changes over time relative to the number of installs I'm driving. I don't know if you're changing it on the back end without telling me like, it's just, you can't operate in with that kind of opacity. It's just, it's just not functional. And then you've got the a hundred campaign ID limit, you know, you've got no creative, parameters in the post-bacc like, you just can't do anything with this.00:29:04 David:Yeah. I mean, that's where it does seem like this was designed as an academic exercise. How do we prevent any. Identification of any individual ever from being even remotely possible. And, and it was an academic exercise that they played out. Whereas if they had workshops with the people who actually have to use it and had, thought through the kind of business use cases and you made a valid point earlier, you don't automatically, enable tracking by, reducing the privacy threshold.But I think, you know, Apple She kind of rethink some of the priorities around this so that you get better business metrics, even if one or two people can slip through the cracks of being able to be uniquely identified. And I think the argument there is like, it doesn't matter at scale, like if one person slips through the cracks, Facebook is not going to build technology around finding that person here and there that slips through the cracks because it doesn't matter to their business to find one or two.It matters too to have more data on everyone. So the campaign ID limit the creative ID, like all of these seem very ivory tower thinking that just is not going to play out in the real world. So, a few minutes ago you were saying you don't think Apple will improve SKAdNetwork, but now we're talking about how they could.Where does the rubber meet the road what's going to happen?00:30:31 Eric:I mean, I don't. Cause I mean, the thing is like, you know, we're just kind of riffing right now. Right? I think like if we sat, we sat down with the chocolate or the whiteboard or something, you know, because we, I wrote an article a couple months back, right. It was, it was like right after this was announced and I kind of like, here's some suggestions here's, here's what you can do to make STI work.More helpful and you know, some really smart people in the Mobile Dev Memo, slack pointed out holes in my analysis. They know if you do this, I, I, if we, if we had enough, post-tax going, I could sort of encode the idea of V over enough of the post-tax like, event in a post-tax. I could put like one character from the 90 fee and every single one, I could get the users.So it's, that's why you can only have one post-bac per install, right. Because if you did 50 or so, that makes sense. So, I mean, the thing is like, if I'm just ripping, what I do believe though, is like, you can eat, you can either have the privacy threshold or the random. Right because I need so like ramp the privacy threshold up to a million.I don't care, but let me have real-time install accounting because without that, I can't do anything. Right. If you, if I, if you're off you skating, even the date of installed in that I can't, I can't do in Sauk county. I can't, I can't, I can't, assess the economics of my campaigns because I don't even know when the installs are produced and I can't make changes to campaigns.Right. Without having to shut the whole thing down and wait, and to reuse that, one precious campaign ID within the, within the sort of like constraint of a hundred. Right. So. my sense is that like, if you just solve for that allow that allow real-time install accounting and then do whatever after that you have to do to prevent me from figuring out who those people are.Okay, that's fine. But at least then I know this campaign drove this many installs today. These were the targeting parameters. This was the audience I was reaching. This is how much I spent. Right. And like, even if we just went, cause I don't think you would lose a lot if you just went back. Cause right.You know, the, the frontier that we reached was like, we're in, especially on Facebook, I'm optimizing for value. I'm not demising for ROAS. Right. And that was like the sort of the final form of, of, of mobile advertising measurement is like, I'm telling Facebook, give me 110% ROAS on day seven. If you do that, I don't care how you target, who you target.You know, w how much you see CPI is, is irrelevant. I've got unlimited. You know, from a, from a sort of like practical standpoint on any given day spend as much as you can, but just make sure we'll get a hundred times that was the final form. And I think even if we sort of like retreated from there back to just like CPI, the average LTV of this campaign is X and the average, you know, the CPI was Y and so therefore I'm making money.That would be much less efficient, but still like it's workable right now. What we have is not workable.00:33:10 David:Yeah, well, I think you and I could riff on all this wonky stuff for another couple of hours and, I hope Apple's listening and actually going to make some changes and, listen better now that they're starting to see some of this stuff, but I did, I did want to change gears and kind of start talking through.What this means for developers and specifically, you know, sub club podcasts, what it means for subscription app developers and, and what you were just talking about. I think, I think is actually a really important, topic that not a lot of people fully understand you've written about it in the past, but I think it's still somewhat abstract enough, that I wanted to, to kind of have you describe it in more concrete terms.And that's the fact that with these, you know, day seven ROAS campaigns and value optimization and event optimization campaigns, Facebook with all of its data and AI in incredible targeting efficiency has kind of, in some ways been doing the job of developers. It's been finding. Those unique profiles, user profiles of who's actually going to spend money.Who's actually going to enjoy the app. And, and it's like, in some ways they, they became this really efficient black box of user profiling and understanding users that developers had kind of in the past done. And then maybe now need to get good at again in the future. know, again, you've written about this before, but just describe that process, maybe a little better of, of how amazing Facebook really was at finding the best users for an app.00:34:51 Eric:Well, they were very, you know, as you said, very, very good at it. Right. So, you know, it was based on like an approach that is, was very, simplistic, right? I mean, I just gonna, I'm gonna, if I can observe everything, then I know everything about this user and I can just target most relevant ads to them.Cause I know everything about what they interact with. Right. And I know what they like and you know, it gets to a point where that, that that ability to observe is so pervasive. That I, I do agree like that, that had, gone too far. Like the pendulum has swung too far in that direction.Like it is not, I find it unsavory to think that like, literally everything I do on my phone is observed and instrumented and ingested as a data point by one company. Right. Like that's, I'm uncomfortable with that. So, you know, and, but, but like, I think, you know, to your point, like going, you know, if you go back to when, when UAC was introduced, right.So Google their mobile product UAC is that's they describe it. I think that they themselves describe it as a black box as like a selling point. Right. Because it's like, look. Worried about any of that, you will handle all of this difficult analysis for you. We'll find the best users for you. You don't have to iterate across audience, definitions, or even creative, you know, and do all that experimentation yourself.We'll do that on your behalf with our superior tools. And when they announced it, there was a lot of, you know, disquietude in the, in the developer community. Cause people are like, look, we built this. We want to do it. I don't trust you to do it. I trust you to do it well, but I also trust it to do it to your advantage.Right, right. To pursue your best interest. Not necessarily mine, what I think you'll do. So this is, and this is exactly what these platforms do is they sort of, they take whatever boundary you set or whatever standard you set around efficiency. And they, they reached that. Right. They'll they'll get you to exactly what you say is like the sort of quality threshold or the efficiency threshold for your campaigns to keep spending money, but they won't give you any more than that.Right. So they could blow out your campaigns and get you 400% real ass. but if you told them you only need 110 by day seven, that's what, that's what you're going to get. And if they get you to that 400, then they're going to buy you a bunch of crappy traffic that brings the sort of average down until it hits that one 10.Right. And so, you know, that's, that's the power that they had, which, you know, to be fair, it's like, they were really good at that. And they would probably be, and, and, and them being really good at it. And then, and then present and providing that as a product productizing that and making that available to everyone.Meant that anyone could spin up a Facebook campaign, you know, any, any Shopify retailer, any Shopify merchant, any small time app developer and spend money and grow their product, grow their audience, right. Versus go back to 2012 and like, you know, the best UAA teams won. And, and a lot of times these were like big teams, big companies that raised a lot of money.You know, now, you know, it is way more egalitarian to open it up to anybody. And, you know, the small shop owner, in, I don't know, the middle of Kentucky or whatever could, could have access to this world-class machine learning infrastructure to grow their business. Right. And then they only really had to compete on the quality of their product and not the quality of their user acquisition infrastructure.So in a way it was, I mean, it was a giant gift to these SMBs and, and if the proof is in the pudding, look at Facebook's advertiser mix, 10 million advertisers, vast majority SMBs, right? 10 million average. Right. Think about any company that has 10 million customers, that's just an absurd scale. Right?And these are people spending, you know, in aggregate tons of money on Facebook. So like, it made sense, but, but, you know, there was a lot of pushback when UAC announced that. Cause developers said, look, we, that was our competitive advantage. Like, well, should it be, if we go back to basics and everybody has access to the same quality of infrastructure and the same quality of like, sort of like, you know, marketing tools and then you can be on the basis of your product.00:38:49 David:So then are we kind of going back to that world? I mean, after I think transparency is going to degrade, Facebook's targeting efficiency because they're not going to have that pervasive tracking where they know everything that's going on on your smartphone. So, so where do we go from, from here as far as, you know, what developers need to be thinking about?And, and I forget exactly when you were at this post, but, but I really appreciated you. You kind of talked through some, some tactics even around. developers needing to get better at capturing intent about potentially kind of bifurcating experience in the app is that we're we're developers should be headed of, okay.Now Facebook can't bring me the perfect user for my app as it exists today. and instead developers need to get back to the basics of understanding their user base and kind of building out those user profiles and understanding who they should be going after. Is it, is that where we're headed?00:39:48 Eric:I think so. I mean, I think we talked about this last time I was on this podcast, but like, you know, so when I wrote my book, Freeman, economics, I mean, this was like 2013. Right. And so this AEO didn't exist yet. You know, VO was didn't exist yet. This was, you bought installed. Right. And the idea of freemium or my sort of thesis with freemium is that like, it gives you the ultimate power to personalize.And so you need some minimum scale because you need a minimum amount of people to experiment with in order to make, you know, some small percentage of people that do monetize meaningful to you. but in order to do that, you need like a sort of like very large surface area for experimentation, right?You need a lot of content to be able to test against people and make sure that, you expose to them the exact perfect thing that they want. And in order to do that, you eat a lot. And so what ended up happening was that idea of flip. And it, and it became less about doing that in the product and more about doing that with the creative, right.And allowing Facebook to do that with four year on your behalf with the creative, then they found the perfect user and you need to do any personalization in the app because they probably the perfect user just make the app for the perfect user, that individual profile, that one profile. Perfect. You make that app, Facebook will find those people through like mass, you know, wide-scale experimentation with creative.Well, now it's flipped again. And so, you know, when someone comes into your app, you don't know who they are. You don't know how qualified they are, because the targeting has been degraded to the, to the point where, you know, th th there's, there's not a whole lot of, of sort of like operatory, you know, relevancy that you can Intuit there.And so you've got to parse that out from their behavior, show them something, see how they react to it. If they react positively to it, show them more of that. And if they don't show them more. And, and that kind of personalization though. I mean, it was very powerful and I talked and that's, I wrote a whole book about it, but it's hard to do.You need a big team, you need data infrastructure, you need that's, that's the thing. And then you revert back to like, well, only big developers can do this. Right. And so you've kind of just edged out the small guy. you know, the developers that are just like a couple of people and they got to just whiff, or they, they got to take a flyer on some idea, and they better hope that it works right.Versus being able to kind of iterate into that and provide one app that gives like personalized experiences to sort of everybody that comes through.00:41:56 David:Yeah. So then those, I mean, what would your advice be today knowing that you can't just, you know, throw a hundred grand at Facebook and let them figure out your perfect user? How, you know, if you're, if you're building an app today from scratch, or let's say you're at 20 or $30,000 in MRR and you want to make that leap and really grow, what do you do?00:42:18 Eric:Well, I think so. I mean, in that post, I mean the one thing that is, you know, it's a worthwhile exercise, but it is trying to instrument these, these signals with the conversion values for SKAdNetwork. Now, the problem with that was, you know, going into this before NTT was launched and, you know, I worked, you know, I worked with some companies to do this and it's like a data science exercise, right?You just, you, you run these, you know, you go back and you have like, kind of look back models and you find out what the commonality was amongst people that ended up being good users. And you try to surface that in the app and you encode that as a signal for a scanner. The problem is going into that exercise.You're thinking that sci network was like a good faith solution. it made sense, but now we realize, well, we don't even know when they're going to te when they're going to, how many of these we need to trigger before they even start reporting them to us. Right. And so like, it's like, okay, well, that's not really an option.You know, I think the other thing is, you know, you approach this as more of like a product marketing, you know, project and just trying to figure out who your audience is right here. And that's like, going back to basics, that's saying, okay, like, what are the demo features of the groups that like this type of product and that's what I have to target against.Right. And then just, and then trying to get, you know, cause you can't do mass creative testing anymore, at least on an iOS. And so, you know, trying to work out some pipeline of like, we try concepts on Android where we can still do kind of mass testing and then we promote the, the conceptual winners to iOS, but then we've got, you know, fewer, various success there.So we've got to kind of adapt that for the iOS environment. Like it's just, you lose a lot of, there's very lossy that each time you, you sort of transfer some sort of component of understanding from a totally separate platform. To iOS and then from iOS to like different environments to, to other environments on iOS, you just, you lose signal there, you lose precision.So I mean, it's it's, but that's it right. And then, you know, trying to get away. So I think another thing is that, you know, you talk to some of these companies and Facebook had become like kind of a drug for them. I mean, it's just like they were addicted to it. and it was just so easy to only use Facebook, right?Because you could accomplish everything you want it to, but you know, that's a classic, you know, sort of, that, that that's a classic sort of blunder from, from just a commercial perspective. You never want to be totally dependent on another platform. You know, now Facebook didn't make this decision.Apple did, but, you know, nonetheless, you know, your sort of devastated by it, right. Because of that dependency. So I think the other piece of this is just trying to, is doing, doing the work you should've done a long time ago, which is diversify your traffic mix. Right. And that's actually kind of difficult because Facebook, again, they did all that creative exploration for you.You know, they have such a broad user base that you could find all these different groups in scale, right at to, to scale like these even niche audiences, niche, look, any, any sort of like niche for X strategy game. You find enough people to build out, a big da you base and that's not true.I don't the other platforms. Right. And you got to really nail the form factor for those like snap is totally different. Like the way to approach the app is totally different. The Facebook, the way to approach tick talks to even snap, right? The way to approach Outbrain, Taboola totally different than any of those.You know, the way to approach YouTube is even different. Like every, all these, these are very, you know, particular, unique, channels and, and, and the way that the ads are are exposed in the products is different across them. And so you've to, you've got, gotta go through the work and the investment it's, you're investing in a data and, and, and sort of institutional knowledge.And all was never went through that exercise because it's like, I can just00:45:46 David:Right.00:45:46 Eric:Spend more Facebook.00:45:47 David:Yeah. And, where do you think organics fall into this mix? I know, like we talked to all trails on the, on the episode before that I said, not only are they a unicorn app, likely evaluation, but in, in their success with organics, I mean, there are apps that just find incredible success with that, right.Kind of search optimization or finding that right niche that really drives organic installs. Where do you think the average app should be placing organic and how much focus should they be putting on trying to get some of this free attention and build, you know, user generated content and links and things like that.00:46:35 Eric:I mean, do it to the extent that you can. I mean, why not? you know, I, I don't think you've got to choose one of the other, right. I mean, you should be ideally maximizing the effect of both of these strategies, but I will say one thing it's that you always have to turn on paid UI, right. You've always got to turn on paid marketing.There's varying, you know, sort of, timelines, you know, over which you have to confront that reality, but it is reality. You've always got to turn it on and like, I've done enough, like advisory for like private equity funds and just big companies that are looking to buy other companies.And it's always, the reason they bring me on is because I'm going to say, we could triple this business. If you did paid UA, right. We could cut Drupal this, like how, how, how much, how much bigger could this get? Right. And you know what I mean? Like, there's always a point where they've capped out. They never developed this, you know, expertise.Internally, right. It never became like domain knowledge that they possessed. And for that reason, there been a lot of false starts. Cause it's like, well, we can always sort of lean back on organic and it's going to take time to spin up paid and they bring someone in. And within two months they haven't really materially improve the business and they spend a bunch of money.So they get fired or, you know, they get the budget cut and they quit. And then they do that three more times and then they realize we're stalled out in growth. and no one wants to come work to be our CMO because like, it's pretty obvious that they're not gonna be. You know, the full freedom and the only way to sort of like break out of that cycle is to have the company get acquired right by a private equity fund is going to say, yeah, we're going to bring in a CMO and you know, these management's kind of gone and, or they're gone, but, or they can stay with it to play ball with the new, you know, the new execs and, and we're just gonna spin up paid marketing and that's, and that's how we grow this asset and that's how we make our money.So I've just been on enough of those deals where you always turn on page away. If you, even, if you, even, if you think you never will, it happens, you know, outside of your, approval.00:48:28 David:Yeah. I didn't mean to phrase the question anyway, that made it a black or white that you had to choose one over the other. And actually I was, I was trying to, to, to kind of, throw a softball at you, because I think your, your thinking on this, is great in that the sooner you do spin up some level of paid marketing, the sooner you, you can understand the different audiences that are going to be coming into the app.And, and that's something that you've talked a lot about that I think is really fascinating. Yeah. If you can find a good organic channel, go for it and bring traffic in, but know that when you spin up ads, those that traffic is going to look different. They're going to convert different. They're going to be interested in different things.And if you, yeah, I'm stealing your, your kind of playbook here. So yeah. Tell me why you think. even if you do have a very successful organic channel and maybe that's the strategy, you kind of get from 10 K a month to a hundred, 300 K a month. But to get from there to the millions a month, you're going to have to spin it up.So what's the playbook for, for kind of building that expertise in house. And when do you start, when do you have to start ramping it up?00:49:43 Eric:So thank you for reminding me of my thoughts here. so, so the idea, the idea there is like, organic's never going to be the ultimate scale channel, right? Like it's gonna, it's gonna, it's, it's gonna, you're gonna reach some sort of asymptote with growth there and it's gonna flatten out and probably at, you know, if you kind of close your eyes and you pictured your app at like the sort of greatest potential, right?Th this sort of like greatest sort of like intrinsic potential paid is 80% of daily, you know, new users, right. Or 60 or whatever, but it's a majority. And so if you've only. You know, grown via, you know, just sort of like organic traction and organic like magnetism, and you've, you've gone through like many sort of cycles of app or product iteration to sort of optimize the product for that group of people that do look distinct that will look distinct from people that have responded to some kind of stimulus, right.And have some sort of intent, sort of like, you know, driving their, their adoption of your product, then you've optimized for the group. That's that at the greatest potential scale of your, of your product is in minority. Right. And what you really want to do is you want to optimize the product for the majority, the, where all the growth, where the growth can be, right.And so that, you know, if you delay layering in pay traffic and you, and you delay, then you delay understanding what they want out of your product. And the sooner you bring that in the sooner you can sort of, Optimize the product for them, the more efficient your pay traction will be, and you'll get an organic halo effect from that.Right. And so like, it's like, well, the sooner that you do that, the faster that you sort of reach that, that sort of, you reached that potential on the organic side. So it's more about like, are you thinking about like how, I mean, an exercise that I always love to do is it's just like pause and think about like, what would success look like?And for most apps, success looks like, yeah, we're spending a ton of money on paid you way. And there's a lot of organic too, because that's just a function of being a successful app that a lot of people know about, but, but we're spending a ton on UI. That's a good thing. That's not a bad thing. It's a great thing.And so, but, but the majority of our users came in through paid UA and so we've optimized the app for them. and so we've, we've, we've made the economics better over time. And then the other piece is like in a, talked about this a lot too. It's like, you've got to change it. Over the life cycle of your app.It, because you know, a lot of times what you see as, you know, you see an app that's new they've got like explosive growth, right? And you look at the, just like a kind of stacked, a bar chart of the cohorts by age. And it's like, well, on any given day, the vast majority of users are new or they're less than a month old.Right. And then like you go, you fast forward two years or three years, and a really good app, that'll be flipped because you've, you've retained people. The vast majority of people that use your product every day are old. I mean, in terms of like when they adopted your product, because it's sticky because it's retentive, right.And that's a, that's a great place to be. But that, that you've got to change the way that you think about product optimization at that point. Like when you're going through the product iteration process, like, well, you're not optimizing for the newbies anymore because there's way fewer than you got to keep the old timers involved and engaged and.Right. Cause, you know, that's just where the vast majority of your revenue is coming from. Right. And, and, you know, and, and at that point you've probably reached, you know, some proportion of your Tam. And so you might not even be doing new user acquisition as such anymore. You might be doing a lot of retargeting re-engagement.And so it's just like, you gotta be very conscious of like the life cycle of the app, what the, what the user base looks like in terms of composition by age and like all that kind of stuff. And it just, it just takes a lot of consideration and it's it's, you know, and if you get to any point where like any of those, any of those distributions is skewed to an extreme, to an extreme one direction or the other, you probably got a problem.Like if you're all organic, you're not you leaving money on the table. If you're all old timers, when you're not growing anymore, if you're all 00:53:39 David:Right, 00:53:39 Eric:Retaining enough. Right. It's like all these different levers that you got to pull to make sure that you hit the optimal sort of combination.00:53:45 David:Yeah. That's great stuff. I love the way you put that too. I think there is some level of magical thinking that if I have just the right app, I never have to do marketing, marketing is a dirty word. Spending money on marketing is. It is wasteful or only companies with bad products have to do marketing and that's just not true.What's especially funny. a lot of these folks or indie developers who hold up Apple to be the end, all be-all Apple spends tens of billions of dollars on marketing, Apple measures that marketing while at the same time, you know, enacting ATT. App Tracking Transparency So it is funny that dichotomy of, and the magical thinking of I shouldn't have to pay for users.My product should be good enough it, really is just magical thinking. ultimately, spending money on marketing is a good thing. Not a bad thing. I love that perspective.00:54:39 Eric:Yeah, my, we had a Halloween party for my son and his classmates he's, he's very young and he was, he like, he did this thing where, you know, he wanted to be two things for Halloween. So they had like a, you know, a parade of their school. And then, we had, you know, we just had Halloween day country competing and stuff anyway, so he wanted to be a dinosaur.And then he decided he wanted to be a vampire for the Halloween day. so we had to get him a second costume. He was a vampire and a, and we're having this party and someone was like, oh, you look like such a scary vampire. I was like, I work in digital advertising.I'll show you what a vampire. looks like, It's this idea about digital advertising. Oh man. It's, so disgusting. it's crass gross. You have to spend money to acquire users That's that's that's that's so, vulgar, but in reality, you're leaving money on the table.If you could be doing it and you're not00:55:35 David:Right. 00:55:36 Eric:That's not good. 00:55:37 David:Yeah, totally. So, so, that, that's actually a great place to wrap up. Like where, where do we go from here? So ATT App Tracking Transparency is what it is. We don't know what Apple's going to do. We hope they make things better, but, what is the future of, of app install ads? What is the future of, of marketing your app successfully?00:55:57 Eric:It's funny because I, have been the biggest, crypto skeptic since day one. I remember people were telling me about Bitcoin in 2011 and I was like, this is a joke. Like, this is a, there's no need for this. There's no use case for this. I still feel that way, but it's gotten to a point where I feel like it's actually inculcating new behaviors where this is just.Crypto in general is probably the thing that introduces us to these ideas. it's like an imperfect way to implement them, but it makes us think about them. then there's going to be a solution that follows The structure of crypto. that is, is actually the better way to, to, to implement these ideas.But I've worked with a number of web 3.0 gaming companies. Right. And, and their challenge is that they can't be on the App Store. they're running like web properties. how do you promote that? And, the thing is if you're running it on the web, you can access it from your mobile device.I can access these games from my device It's just not on the App Store. if you get one of these that blows up, you get the halo of web 3.0 games. You get the, hit game that, creates the space for this category to thrive.Then. Maybe it just becomes, you know, acknowledged that yeah, we can go through the App Store if we want specific types of games, but if we want these other types of games, we just go straight to the browser. my big question is why did Apple do privacy really in the first place? maybe it was to actually route everything through the App Store, That would be the cynical conspiratorial take. It's that they want to prevent your access to the open web or they want to gatekeep it. so they're going to decide what you're able to access. But anyway, There are a lot of web 3.0 companies thinking about this right now.They can't go to the App Store, So there's no app install ads for them. It's all web-based. and, and also, you know, they've done a great loves Web 3.0 companies have done a great job of fostering community-driven marketing, Getting a discord server with 20,000 or 100,000 people in it.And That's where you advertise. you never have to pay for anything. now that's a first-mover thing. And I think that declines as more people enter the space. There are just, you know, there's just too many of these, these sort of games to, to sort of rely on that.But a lot of companies are thinking about that right now. How do we drive people to the web to do acquisition? Right. A lot of, you know, as, you know, a lot of, subscription companies, have been doing that for a long time, There are well-worn strategies for doing this. And they've been monetizing that way for a long time too.They haven't been screaming about it. But they've been doing it. now that, well, okay, now that's probably, that's, that's a policy that's allowed to, you're allowed to do that. Apple blesses. Well, they don't, they, anyway, they say we can't stop you. Maybe the consequence of this whole thing is that it just moves people into the browser. there's the web 3.0 piece of it, which, who knows maybe that is a dud. Maybe it's a gigantic category. I'm not convinced either way yet, but you've got people that are saying I'm going to set up web shops I made the point that like, look, I don't think that, you know, there's, there's, there are systematic reasons why that probably doesn't become a mass-scale solution.A lot of people are doing that anyway. A lot of games are doing that anyway. That's the other dirty little. secret A lot of gaming companies were sending emails saying, Hey, you know what, don't buy these IAPs in the app. Be

Our guest today is Eric Crowley, a tech investment banker with GP Bullhound. With investments in companies ranging from Spotify to Whoop, and clients such as AllTrails, Pinkbike, and Lingoda, GP Bullhound provides transaction advice and capital to many of the leaders in the Consumer Subscription Software space.On the podcast we talk with Eric about his 2021 report on Consumer Subscription Software, the truth about LTV calculations, and the new era of organic user acquisition.In this episode, you'll learn: Was 2020 just a “COVID Bump,” or a shift in consumer behavior? Are the Bumble & Duolingo IPO multiples justified? How savvy developers are adapting to Apple's App Tracking Transparency The truth about LTV The new era of customer acquisition Links & Resources Spotify Whoop AllTrails Pinkbike Lingoda Bumble Duolingo Instacart Match Group Netflix Noom Weight Watchers Tinder The Dyrt Day One Journal Automattic Tech Crunch Scribd Pandora Eric Crowley's Links Follow Eric on Twitter GP Bullhound GP Bullhound insights Eric's LinkedIn GP Bullhound 2021 CSS survey Follow us on Twitter: David Barnard Jacob Eiting RevenueCat Sub Club Episode Transcript00:00:00 David:Hello, I'm your host. David Bernard. And with me, as always, RevenueCat CEO, Jacob Eiting. Our guest today is Eric Crowley, a tech investment banker with GP Bullhound. With investments in companies ranging from Spotify to Whoop, and clients such as AllTrails Pinkbike, and Lingoda, GP Bullhound provides transaction advice and capital to many of the leaders in consumer subscription software.On the podcast, we talk with Eric about his 2021 report on consumer subscription software, the truth about LTV calculations, and the new era of organic user acquisition.Hey, Eric, welcome to the podcast.00:00:56 Eric:Hey, David, Jacob. Thanks for having me back. It's always a pleasure. 00:00:59 David:Yeah. Every year you release this report, so we had to get you back. This is the third annual Consumer Subscription Software Report, and I wanted to kick off just asking you a little bit about the motivation, and where your headspace is in thinking about creating this. Who the target is, and what kind of questions you're asking yourself as you prepare this report.00:01:24 Eric:Yeah. The report is the GP Bullhound Consumer Subscription Software Report. I call it CSS, which is kind of a playoff SaaS. This is the third year I've been writing it, and it started back in 2018. I worked with a company called AllTrails that was starting to monetize really well by selling subscriptions.It was like a light bulb went off in my head. I was like, this is a phenomenal way to provide a consistently improving product to consumers, where the margins are pretty good. It's easy to access a ton of different people globally through the app stores or through the web, and I just got really excited about it.I started putting some notes down on my own, and then GP Bullhound really supported me in saying like, “Hey, this is actually a pretty big trend. There's gonna be some amazing companies built around this space,” and companies like RevenueCat, that are supporting CSS companies, are just as exciting.So, we've been slowly educating ourselves. The goal behind the report is really just to force me to do some thinking about the space. What it looks like. What it will be. As a banker, you can quickly focus on transaction, transaction, transaction, and not really do any long-term thinking about where the world's going.It's putting myself in your guys's shoes. You guys are building RevenueCat not for what the world looks like today, but for what the world looks like in three to five years. I try to take the same approach with CSS, and think about where's the world going to go. So I talked to a lot of smart people as I put the report together. Entrepreneurs, investors, get their opinions.You guys can see their interviews in the report, and then ultimately we publish it. The audience I like to think about is entrepreneurs, people that are thinking about starting a CSS company, or already launched one, and they're looking to improve their metrics, or think about their target audience as entrepreneur-rich.By partnering with them, investing in their businesses, it takes them to the next level. The other way I like to think about it, it's my own personal scoreboard. I love to flip back two years ago and see, was I right about this company? You're publishing in public, so people can always come back to you and say, “Man, you were way off.” So, I look forward to that.00:03:26 Jacob:I remember the F finding the first one, the 2018, I guess, reporter 2019, whenever the first one you put out,00:03:33 Eric:2019, I think that's how we met actually.00:03:36 Jacob:Did you reach out to me or? I think I found it, or I don't remember what it was, but00:03:39 Eric:We've had a mutual friend, Nico introduced us and said, Hey, you guys should talk about this. and then I think we just went off on a two hour tangent.00:03:47 Jacob:But yeah, I remember being, it's still, there's still not a ton of like really focused research or writing on this space. and I think that, that, you know, this will probably won't be true for very long, right. As long as it continues to grow, but like going back to like who it's for. I mean, I imagine it as some, you know, end of the day, if you're employing.Pushing into some kind of lead gen. Right. But it does provide a lot of value for, you know, even if you're not interested in a transaction or whatever, just. Some like holistic data on a space. Cause like, I, the same, I mean, Eric, you said we're, we're thinking three and five years in the future. It's like, I wish like a lot of times I'm thinking like three to six weeks in the future.Right. and so it's even useful, I think, you know, even if you're, you know, I, you know, we're, we're in a bit of an interesting place as a infrastructure provider to be at kind of a bird's eye view, but it. Founder on one of these CSS apps, you know, like it is useful for you to know, like what's the meta environment, how's it evolving, you know?And if nothing else to like connect you with other people who have experimented with things and stuff like that. So, yeah, I think it provides beyond, beyond the, the, the lead gen aspect of it. It provides a lot of value for people. So I'm glad, I'm glad you're, you're still doing it. 00:05:04 Eric:Yeah. And just for any of the listeners, it is free. So you just go to the GP, bullhorn.com website. It's all easy to download and then you can see all our past reports as well. So 00:05:12 David:Yeah, and we'll drop it in the show notes. but, yeah. And, and, and speaking of all that, you know, it, it's something we as RevenueCat want to get more into as well. I mean, just seeing how much value you've created in producing these reports, and we're kind of sitting on a, you know, Processing over a billion dollars a year in, subscription revenue.We've got a lot of interesting data that, that we, that I'm very personally excited to share that we haven't, kind of had the infrastructure to, to do yet, but are, are getting there. And, so hopefully we'll, we'll have our own kind of, state of subscriptions that dives into the data and some of the trends and stuff in a different way than, than your kind of, strategy and higher level look at things.But when one thing that has happened, in the actually. It was announced before your last report, but actually implemented since your last report. And that's the app tracking transparency and iOS 14, which didn't actually ship till iOS. What was it? 14.4 or five or something. So, so we're kind of just now starting to see the impacts of it.And, and, you know, you took a couple of slides in your report to start discussing it. And it really is kind of one of the biggest topics and top of mind for subscription app developers, because it really is a huge shift in the landscape. So I want it to. Start with talking about that. And one of the things you shared in the, in the presentation is that you feel like it's a short-term pain, that's ultimately going to lead to a long-term gain.So I'd love to hear your thinking around what that pain is, but then also what you see the long-term game being.00:07:01 Eric:Yeah, it's a, it's a, great point. And, you know, anytime apple or Google make changes to their, their, their app stores, right. It's a seismic shift throughout the industry because it's something that impacts everyone. And so everyone has to be aware of these changes and then ultimately have a plan for them.And so I think that the change you're talking about David is really the. The implementation of, removing tracking for a lot of, a lot of these businesses specifically, like. And so what the change did with IDFA, is it, it really deprecated the ability for, for marketers within some of these CSS businesses to really accurately target people, specifically using Facebook or some of these other social networks.And so what it's doing is it. It's impacting the conversion rates on, CSS, CSS, businesses, marketing to consumers. And so if you just can't find that person that just is in love with, for example, biking, if you're a Strava marketer, it just takes you a lot longer to find that specific subscribers you might have to market to 10 people now to find two subscribers versus before you can market to five people and find two subscribers.And so it just means marketing efficiencies going down. And that can mean. Growth rates. It can impact conversion rates and ultimately impact just financials of these businesses. And so it's a pretty important consideration for any, CEO marketing team on how they go out and get their, their business in front of consumers.If Facebook's no longer as efficient, they have to find other ways. And so. So my, my thought is like, this is a short-term problem, right? It's something that's going to take people two to three months to adapt and find a new way to reach consumers. But ultimately my hope is for the space is you see the long-term game, which is what I was referencing.People really focus on organic ways of acquiring customers. Right? So instead of just pumping ads through Facebook and trying to find someone who fits a profile, you spend a lot more time really narrowly targeting your demographic, your niche, and then finding ways for them to find your product organically either.You know? So like a company that I work with, we sold a company called Pinkbike and so what they do is they partner with, the trade associations for mountain. And those trails associations now act almost as the marketing partner of pink bike to let consumers know about the fact that all the trail details.Is on, is on the pink bike app or it's called trail forks. And so that's, that's a really powerful, organic customer acquisition tool that they don't have to pay for. And so you're seeing, seeing the same thing happen with, like Strava is doing this, pre.com recently partnered with the NFL. So if your team's got a last fourth quarter fuel goal and you need to get something kicked, you can go to pray.com and submit a prayer for your kicker. I wish I was joking. It's a pretty brilliant idea. So I think this is really good for the sector overall, but yeah. Happy to dive into it. It's it's a fascinating00:09:37 Jacob:We it's a callback to a sub club podcast content, but, Greg, this, the plant app, this is something that they were doing, which is like, we're partnering with, plant nurseries. Yeah. To like, get their app into people's hands. And, yeah, I don't know if it's an earned media or. Bought media, but this is more like this is earned, right?This is like building an audience. You've seen it in the maker community, actually a lot, like in the indie SaaS community, more it's a different game when it has to be consumer scale. Right? Like there's a little bit different. You have to build maybe a bit more than you would in like, oh, just blog about.Built this thing and that's enough to get Indies, but you can apply the same thing, right? It's like produce content, produce something like low investment for users to get engaged with your brand because you're not building an app unless you have some, I mean, maybe you are, but you're not going to build something with very high, like multiples.Like if you're, if you don't have something unique to offer in the first place, but put that into like a more like lightly consumable format, start to build that audience and then make that an on-ramp and yeah, I agree. Like that's, that's something you own, right? Like your brand is. your brand doesn't exist on the app store, right?Like your brand can exist outside of these, like shifting sands and regulations and whatnot, and ultimately is like, you know, going to get reflected in your asset value if that's something you care about. Right. So, 00:10:53 Eric:Yeah, that's a key thing we talk about, right. If any business that we look at that's potentially selling or, or thinking about raising capital, right? It's like, how are you finding your. And if you're, if you're one channel is Facebook, and then consequently, like doing Facebook ads or apple ads on the, on the app store, that becomes pretty challenging.And so you want it to be such a good product, right? So it involves more work upfront. And just as you're talking about Jacob, the product's gotta be better. It's gotta be more efficient. It's got to reach consumers where they are with the problem they have. it becomes a lot more viral and a lot more sticky.So I think, I think it's going to be good for the sector.00:11:26 David:You wouldn't want to name names of course, but I am curious if. Had any clients, or just talks about anybody in the space where they were very reliant on Facebook specifically, and then, and have really struggled as things have changed. You know, I've been seeing some tweets around the, the consumer packaged goods space where some of these CPG companies are really struggling.And so I'm just curious. You know, without naming names, if, if there's any kind of high level things you could share around, apps that have struggled in this new paradigm. 00:12:02 Eric:Yeah. I mean, I definitely can't name names, you know, obviously I keep everything confidential with my clients, but even non-clients, you've seen CACs go up 20, 30%. you see, like, if you think about like conversion rates from installs to subs, That's a big metric of actual intent. Did you find the right user, right?Did someone just click on it and download it? Great. But if they're not actually subscribing that wasn't a successful transaction for you. And so the way I think about this, David is it's the app stores made tracking a lot harder, so it's harder to find your right consumer. So imagine if you're a CPG company, you walk into a grocery.And instead of stuff, being laid out perfectly across the shelves at the right height for you, they just tossed everything in the middle of the store and said, find what you want. Just go pick it out. Right. You're going to have much lower conversion. You're going to have much lower purchase rates because people aren't being targeted with the stuff they want to see.And so I think now you have to find, you know, it becomes more of a specialty situation where you're walking into a store that has stuff for just outdoor gear or very healthy granola. Right. And you're going specifically to that store for that. That's probably better in the long term, for a lot of these companies, 00:13:01 Jacob:Yeah, but there's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of folks that have benefited from this ease relative ease, right. And any sort of market disruption is going to be painful. I was like, anecdotally, I mean, David, we've heard on this podcast and elsewhere people who have just like straight up pause acquisition, who are like all re scrambling because yeah.You get it tuned to this very fine knife edge. And I imagine for like consumer physical goods, like DDC stuff, it's even worse because their margins are thinner than software. Right. 00:13:28 Eric:And you've got inventory and everything. Yeah. It's a totally different. 00:13:31 Jacob:But, you know, as you do like you, the market reshuffles and the people, I can figure it out, the fastest are gonna are going to come out the best.So. 00:13:39 Eric:There's going to be a shift though. So people under this is like that seismic shift that just shows how much of your reliance is on maybe one or two channels. Right? Two, two major tech companies sitting here in San Francisco. If you're super, truly relying on those and you're doing great, fine.But if a bump happens, right, how exposed are you? And so like, this will be a benefit. Right. I think it's going to be a huge benefit for Tik TOK. Right? I think people are finding really good ways to acquire customers through tic-tac. And so that's a very interesting channel. I think it'd be really good for influencers, right?If you have people that are very passionate about a certain space and then they go out and, you know, have a very core customer base that loves what they do specifically. It's going to be pretty powerful for them to.00:14:18 David:Yeah, and I was just gonna say, anecdotally, you know, we haven't done a super deep dive in our data, but at a, at a high level, I was. Bracing for our numbers to take a big dip. Like I, I mean, Jacob and I had talked about it in the spring about, you know, how, what is going to look like for RevenueCat, you know, are some of these subscription apps just going to completely unwind and people are apparently figuring it out because you know, it keeps going up until the right. 00:14:49 Jacob:I mean the consumer, the consumer need hasn't disappeared. Right. So maybe if they just weren't driven, you know, it's not going to, it can't just disappear overnight. Right? Like if you never, if you, if you are a Coke fan who never saw Coke out again, and it's like, you're still gonna buy it. Right. Like there's, there's, there's a certain amount of demand.That's just going to find the supply. But, but yeah, no, I mean, it's hard for us to, to definitively say looking at our data and aggregators. Cause there's so much, but they're definitely. Like this summer was definitely slower than we've had in the past. Like on my, as I'm writing my investor updates of the year and each month and stuff looking at it.But yeah, it wasn't like this catastrophic, you know, macro thing. And they were talking about a lot of like, you know, probably outliers that we hear about people who were affected, you know, more than others, but overall. I, I don't think our, I don't think our prediction last year of, of a potential recession was necessarily false.Like it doesn't, it definitely doesn't feel like it's sped up the ecosystem. Right. But it doesn't necessarily feel like a depression, right. Maybe, maybe a slight recession or just the normalization. 00:15:49 David:Looking at our data in aggregate that, some folks use this to their advantage and actually, and, and accelerated because they knew it was coming and they did focus more on product and organic and other things. And so for whatever, you know, losses, there were. Other folks more than made up for that.And that's it kind of the interesting thing about working with so many, I mean, we're closing in on 10,000 apps on revenue cat. And so, you know, you kind of have a pretty broad basket where you, you know, there are going to be winners and losers, but in aggregate subscription apps are just continuing to tick along and do really well. 00:16:26 Eric:David it's like you read directly from bullets on my report. I, I, I completely agree with you.00:16:34 David:Another thing I wanted to dive into was the, the COVID bump. Cause that's, that's another thing that's kind of been on everybody's mind is simultaneous to this. I was 14 and, and this is something we've talked about again internally, with revenue cat, is it. This summer was the, everybody who was vaccinated and, and Delta hadn't kind of bumped yet.And so, you know, may, June and July, there was a big shift socially. kind of it felt like it, especially in the U S that we were coming out of the pandemic. and, and so simultaneous to the app, tracking transparency, going into effect, we had these like societal shift. And then now we're kind of back into it a little bit with the Delta surge, but just curious what your thoughts are on how much of the boosts we saw in 2020 really was dependent DEMEC and then how much of that will actually linger as kind of shifting consumer preferences and shifting consumer spend.00:17:36 Eric:Yeah. I mean, there's, there's absolutely a companies that benefited from us is called the removal of inf in in-person conversations. Right? So like Bumble and DuoLingo, two companies that both went public, right. They both benefited because their, their business model is designed around, not meeting in person for the first couple of conversations.Right. And so. There's no way to say that they didn't benefit. the way I think about it, though, in this, in the CSS space, it's very similar to like the overall e-commerce space, right? Is consumers looked around to find a solution for a problem they're having right. Instacart you couldn't, you couldn't go to the grocery store or maybe you felt less comfortable going to the grocery store.So you tried an Instacart for the first time. Maybe you were, you know, thinking about meeting someone, you know, long-term but you never, you never wanted to try online dating or you couldn't go to the bar. So you tried online dating for the first time and sorry. What the pandemic did was it really opened up people's eyes to other options from what they'd been doing for the last 20 years, 50 years, whatever it was.And so they had to find other solutions to, you know, their demands, their needs. And so I don't, I think it's absolutely a COVID bump, but I still look at it as really as an accelerant of people adopting new products and services that they would have tried in three to four years. but the pandemic kind of pushed them to try something, to move out of their comfort zone and try something new.So, you know, I absolutely think you'll see a little bit of a downshift in, in some of these companies that had a really big boom, right? Like language learning. People had nothing to do for four to five months, especially over some of the winter times. So people tried new hobby, tried language learning, you know, that'll probably go down a little bit, but overall, if you look at it from like a five-year trend, It's going to be up substantially from where it was in 20 17, 20 18, 20 19, and 2020, you know, made it look like a little bit of bump, but eventually I think those companies will continue to grow and surpass what anything they did in 2020. 00:19:21 David:Yeah, that's really interesting.00:19:22 Jacob:I'll back that up as well with the, the unreleased, Jacob looks at graphs and then gives a, gives a hand wavy descriptions of them. But we, yeah, we, we were, I was kind of bracing for it as well. And then I would say this summer was slow and like, David was. We're not sure why. I think it was, I think it was a number of factors things have since picked up again.But I think generally summers are slow for software a and then B. Yeah, I think we were seeing kind of like a little bit of the payback for, for COVID perhaps it's a, it's a vial. I think it's a plausible theory. We don't, it's really hard to prove. but we have not seen, you know, we, we saw our COVID experience was really drastic.And we have not seen. Similar, like back off from that, like, it has been like, it has been like we just compressed six months and I'm saying partially, this is just revenue casts, individual story because of where we were last year. But then I think also it's, it's indicative of the system in general.It's like, I think, yeah, we just compressed a whole bunch of, like consumer behavior change into like a very short period of time. And yeah, we're not gonna be able to keep that up. Right. We're not gonna be able to continue. To, to crunch that in, or we'll run out of consumers eventually. But, but it doesn't look like everybody's, you know, because, you know, I think the story for CSS in general, it's like we've delivered value for people, right?Like it's, it's a good, it's a good product, right? The whole line, not every product is good, but in general it's like a it's, it's a decent deal. And so I, I think more people discovering that. Yeah, it can only get bigger, right.00:20:55 Eric:Yeah, I think we talked about it in our first year, our first time together, right on the last podcast, which is if these businesses are truly making consumers' lives better, this is going to be a very long-term.00:21:04 Jacob:Yeah. 00:21:05 David:And speaking of that, and the two companies you just mentioned, in the, Time since we last spoke, but Bumble and DuoLingo went public and some other consumer subscription, apps went public. so tell me a little bit about your, your perspective on the, the public investor. Excitement for CSS.I mean, we're seeing pretty high multiples in the both of those IPS did, did very well. so what are you seeing in the, in the public investor space?00:21:33 Eric:Yeah, I think, I think the public market has really woken up to this business model, the power of it and understanding, you know, it's public markets. They do a lot of pattern matching, right? If they've seen something be super successful, they look for something that looks similar to that. And so I think a lot of people are waking up to, how powerful Salesforce is not waking up.They're well awake, very aware of SAS businesses. But I think they're seeing that same pattern starts to take, hold on, CSS. It just has different metrics. Right? And so, you know, Bumble's now public, the match group's been public for quite some time. Once I spun out of IAC, you've got Netflix and Spotify, which are fantastic examples of the international global reach of Content, and how consumers are very sticky for something they love.And so. These businesses who can get to scale really quickly, like you nuMe, right, is a competitor to weight Watchers. Weight Watchers has been around for decades, but Newman built a better mouse trap and they acquired customers at a really quick rate. And, you know, they're well over 400 million in revenue and ready for the public market.So I expect them to go public. Pretty soon. And so I think there's going to be a lot of businesses that follow them that are using this, this metric. So, and then that'll cascade all the way through, from public market investors as, as exit opportunities all the way down to, you know, series a series B investors, seeing this business model work and scale.00:22:47 Jacob:Yeah. I mean, I guess my, like, what's your, like, I, I, when, when we started seeing these go public in the last, like couple of years, so, well, I mean, honestly, it's like, Since we started RevenueCat, like was actually the, kind of the first unicorns, even like, I guess Bumble might've been passing unicorn when we got started, but like there weren't a ton and now it's like every, every month there's a funding announcement for a CSS company.That's a, that's a university. I mean, partially that's just like valuations going up and stuff like this, but like, how do you see. The evolution of this market. Long-term, you know, so DuoLingo pops becomes the first, you know, are they going to be like Salesforce and just be dominant in that space forever?Or do you see it being maybe more dynamic than sasses?00:23:31 Eric:I think it's a little more dynamic than SAS for, for a couple of reasons. One, new consumers like to try stuff, right. And so if it's with like a Salesforce or something, right. That integrates into your day to day operations from a business model perspective, right. So if something breaks there, right.Your business. 00:23:47 Jacob:Is very high. 00:23:48 Eric:Yeah, it's a little higher, right. And it's not just you using it. It's your entire business. Right? So you've got 10 people using this product or 20 people or 5,000, depending on the size of your company. Right. In CSS. It's it's you, maybe you and your family. Right? So it's a little bit of a different switching cost.So that's, that's one. However, these companies can scale a lot of. and they can, they don't have like the heavy, heavy cost and, you know, on the sales and marketing side. So I think they have an ability to actually get to profitability a lot faster, especially if they have an organic customer acquisition engine.And so I think that's going to be a big difference between that, between CSS and SAS. 00:24:23 Jacob:So, yeah, you mentioned the metrics are different. What are, what are the metrics that folks are, public investors are looking at for these companies that it might be different from a SAS company?00:24:33 Eric:Yeah. I mean, a lot of them are the same metrics, but the numbers that are like good are different, right? So like on a SAS business model, right. Revenue growth is just as attractive as a CSS business model revenue growth. Right. Everyone wants to see high double digits, triple digit numbers on revenue growth.But like an interesting thing is net revenue retention. Now that's very different, right? In CSS, you typically don't upcharge people or have additional seats be filled because it's just one person. Right. So, you know, maybe you get an. 00:24:59 Jacob:It's not much expansion opportunity. 00:25:00 Eric:Yeah, you can, you can do maybe some, some packages, upgrades, and people are starting to experiment that you can pack it and you can experiment with bump, bundling 00:25:07 Jacob:But it's certainly never going to be greater. It's never going to be net positive, right? 00:25:11 Eric:No, you're never going to see a net positive number where a lot of the SAS businesses, right.People are looking for net revenue, retention, numbers of north of one, 20, 120% net revenue retention 00:25:18 Jacob:I mean the opposite of churn, right. Which if you have a CSS business with opposite, Congratulations. like 00:25:25 Eric:Yeah. You're doing something well, and I haven't found it yet, but yeah, 00:25:28 Jacob:You might be the only one 00:25:29 Eric:Yes, I think that's right. 00:25:31 David:Quick, point though, to counterpoint to what y'all were both just saying, of all the apps, dating app, it's totally slipping my mind. 00:25:40 Jacob:Tinder. partnership. David, look at us. We're like on a wavelength. 00:25:46 David:They, they have in-app purchase. They have consumable in-app purchases to boost your, profile. They're one of the few that I've seen that could potentially actually have a. A a positive, net revenue retention. whereas most subscription apps are just a subscription. it's going to be interesting to see if other subscription apps can pull off that sort of model that you could actually generate a, a net net revenue retention. 00:26:19 Eric:I think you nailed it, David. So that's coming from. Right. I think people first experimented with, Hey, how do I get someone to buy my product every year or every month? Right. And now is how do you make it even better? So they're starting to listen to their core users. And we talk about this a little bit on the LTVs.And what do these people want and what makes this experience even better for them. And I think you nailed it with Tinder, right? It's the most, it's the easiest thing to convince people to, to encourage more is more, you know, more relationships, right? People love more relationships and people are willing to pay for that.And so, you know, then what else, what else could this go down the path of, right. What other options could people pay for additional services? Or what we've seen is like marketplaces or transactions spinning on. Right. So if you have a really passionate user base and they're going out there doing, camping, for example, like on, on the dirt, it's a camping site, right?What about doing a marketplace to buy and sell use tents right now is not a subscription, but now if someone's paying, like, okay, now they bought something through your marketplace and you get 10% of that purchase price. So there's going to be a lot of stuff. I think that happens there, to encourage that, to encourage that LTV numbers start rising, I just haven't seen a ton yet, make it happen above 00:27:26 Jacob:It's a scale problem. I need to do that either be at such scale for that to make sense. So I was going to say for anybody, listening to this, that hasn't reached 20 million in ARR, probably north of that do not add a marketplace to your 00:27:37 Eric:I totally agree with that. Very, very much focused focus, focus. And so I would even say like closer to 50 00:27:43 Jacob:Yeah. I mean, until you're like, how do we get this thing public? Or how do we show, like, how do we show like N plus one revenue streams, right? Like it's kinda more what it's about than it is necessarily the revenue generated. 00:27:53 Eric:I'm just a dreamer though. You're just a realist. I'm here, I'm here. And you're just telling me all that stuff that could go wrong. 00:27:58 David:One of the things you just kinda touched on that I wanted to dive deeper into was, was a truth about LTVs. And I love this slide on the, on your presentation, kind of defining these two cohorts, which I've never heard, defined this way. And I really loved the analogy and I'm going to start sort of stealing it from you and use.And crediting you of course. but in the presentation you define, tourists and locals, and then talk about kind of the importance of identifying these different cohorts. So tell me about Who the locals are and why that matters and who the tourists are and how companies can start, analyzing their data to understand this and better target marketing, better, craft the experience in the app and, and those sorts of things. 00:28:46 Eric:Yeah. So we're going to geek out here guys, and, really go deep into STSS. Right? So this is where, this is where my brain goes sometimes on a Saturday night, which is just exciting. but so the way I've been thinking about CSS a lot, and so the LTV component of CSS, which is lifetime value, Which I'm sure all your listeners are very, very well aware of is kind of like how much money can you make from this consumer over time.Right. And it's a function of your pricing and it's an, a function of your turn rate. And so, a lot of people are very focused on this metric as investors or buyers, right? Because it's effectively, how valuable is your customer? So it's an extremely important metric. The problem with this metric and lots of other metrics is it's, it's derived from an app.Right. It's looking at all your users that come into your, in your ecosystem is paying customers. And then how do they perform over time? and it's, it's driven, it's driven off an average of all your users. And so when I've gone through some of my client's data and you look at their user base, right, we, we quickly discovered there's a, there's kind of two different profiles.And I won't use any names here, but let's just, let's just say it's, a walking company, right? So you're, you've got people that go out and they, they sign up, you have a hundred people that. And 20 of them start walking every day and they're, and they, this is what they love and they're tracking, they're walking and you've got another 40 that do it for like a month or two.And then they kind of drop off and then just like, I'm going to go do biking or skateboarding or something. And I switch and you've got another people that sign up. They subscribed to it because their friend pressured him into it and they hate walking and they're never going to walk again and they turn off immediately.Right. So you kind of have those three different groups, some that are just going to do whatever. Some that do it for two to three months and then leave. And then some that do it the first month. And then say, forget this. I'm never going to use this again. And so the problem is your LTV of each one of those three groups are very, very different.And so what, we've, what we've been guiding investors and entrepreneurs, as they think about their growing their businesses, really find out who those locals are, who those people that are going to come and use your app every day, every week, every summer, whatever, whatever the metric is that you're looking.And find ways to measure that, right? Because ultimately that's who you need to bring to your community. And one, those people make the community run more robust, right? Cause they're constantly contributing feedback into the. To, they're much more likely to stay around with you guys. And so you need to find those tools that they're looking for.Right? Like seeing around the corner and saying like, okay, this person loves walking. What else can I provide them? What about a weather forecast? So now that they are about to go out and walking, you know, what does the weather look like? And, oh my God, this is now, this is my one-stop stop for, for walking.And so I think w we've been guidinGP Bullhound's like if you use the averages as a broad metric and that's great, and you should, because investors are going to want to know that, but, but really dig deep into your, your cohort and understand like who's using this every day, all day and what do they need. And so if you can really identify that and show that LTV to, to invest in.I think you can get people a lot more excited than just like that average LTV, right? Cause this shows them potential of what it can be over three to five years, which is really important if you're two or three year old company. Right. And try to convince someone to invest in you showing them that lifetime value of the tour or the locals is going to be a lot more valuable than that average.00:31:46 Jacob:I mean, if you think about just as the, you know, I think it's one of the, you highlighted one of the hard parts of assessing these businesses early on, is that yeah. Your cohort, your total subscriber base is very heavily biased on like your most recent cohort, because often you're also growing, right?Like that's often, like your most recent cohort might be the size of your first five, you know? just because, and for that reason you can really have scurry looking data. but you know, if you think five years from now, mostly. Those other two groups you mentioned there they'll have turned out from most cohorts.Right? And then the only ones remaining for four years of cohorts will be these locals and these long-term retention. And then your total subscriber base is gonna look very different than it does today. Right. And yeah, I'll admit revenue. I've tried to solve this problem in the product. And we still are trying to solve this problem in the product.It's how do we like show people? Cause you're, you're dealing with a mixed population, right? And like you, you can also also run into a problem with begging the COO or like doing very, like, look, you got to invest in and say like, look, look how great my retention is. If I just ignore them. Bad users. Right?Like, let me just look at the good ones. Right. But there is something there in that. What you're talking about, Eric, that long, that very long-term view is that if these users really do retain for a long time, eventually they will be the lion's share of. Subscriber base. And that churn that we talk about, like, you know, if you're adding 1% of your total user base, the most you can experience off of that as like 1% of churn, right.Versus when you're adding half, you know, if you have 110,000 subscribers and you add 10,000 in a month, that's going to be a huge effect to your overall subscription subscription base. Right. so yeah, I think, I think, you know, we certainly have a lot to build on the tooling side. Right. And I think it goes to what you're talking about.Air. We're very early. Like, I think we've just kind of solved infrastructure, like infrastructure. I mean, I would even say kind of, cause there's a lot for us that we need to do yet. but as far as like data science and actually yeah. Being able to outside of a spreadsheet, understand this stuff. It's it's, it's not trivial.It's not trivial. All 00:33:51 Eric:It's extremely hard. And I think like, cause there's so much more you could do once you've broken those two cohorts into tourists and locals, right? Like how do you acquire the locals versus how do you acquire the tourists? Are tourists coming through like Facebook, apple store and the locals are coming from referrals.Okay. So maybe your Facebook spend, is that even worth doing the spending on right. If they're, if they're turning off after a month or two, you know, subscribers is a vanity metric, right. If they don't. All right. You can grow. We talked about this in our 2020 report. We have like this cheetah versus thoroughbred.Right. And it's really easy to show a ton of growth. And you've got all these subscribers and everything is fantastic. Right. But if those subscribers get tired and they turn off right away, you kind of probably wasted money on them. Right. Maybe you got paid back in a month, right. So you didn't lose like on the CAC spend right in here, but you're not building your business.Right. You're just gonna you're pinching pennies. 00:34:36 Jacob:But not a lot of work. Right? Like it's not actually getting translated into business 00:34:39 Eric:Exactly. So is it better to kind of focus on the product, right? Figure out what those, those, tourists are using and spend less time on the marketing side and really nailed the products like, Hey, you'll probably grow slower, right? And That's an issue. That's a risk you have to take, but maybe you can grow more efficiently, more capital efficiency.00:34:55 Jacob:Capital's free now, so that's not a 00:34:58 Eric:That's a fair point of half my fault, I'll take full responsibility for some of that. Right. 00:35:03 Jacob:I think it's interesting how this like feeds into, you know, kind of going back to targeting and ad targeting how often. Optimized Facebook campaigns on like trial conversion. And that doesn't even that doesn't, that's all your tourists and your locals. I mean, maybe some of those that never even start a trial would be cause, but there's a lot of tourists in that group that started trial right.Or convert a trial. And a lot of people are targeting off of that. Right. And so as these methods become less. Good. it will force it'll force developers to yeah. Maybe do one of these scary things actually talk to users, right? Like actually like find those locals, like go in your analytics. And I think just the thing as you were talking about, I just want to point out that, like, I don't think you necessarily need to define this off of monetization retention either could just be retention, like pure usage retention, but it could also be engagement.Yeah. I think about the way Facebook, Oriented their growth teams very early on, which was like findinGP Bullhound that connected, like that was a really key step for them in their product, was to get people to make like three or four. I forget there's some number of friends and they oriented all of their growth efforts around that.Find the thing that people do in your. Shows that they're engaged and give them opportunities to show that. And then, you know, you can use that as an indicator. Okay. Talk to those folks and actually talk to them, right? Like find out, always put something in your app that lets you reach out to them in some way.And like, have you can get on a zoom call. I've done. It's easier now in SaaS land because like, I, I, I, people I'm an app. People like I know how to talk to them, but when we were, when I was working in consumer. Phone calls were more awkward, right? It was different. You're not going to books like outside of computer land, but still like just incredibly valuable.And, and, and, and I think like, you know, if we want to talk about the way to build the way to fully realize how CSS is going to, I'm just going to go all in on your turmeric, by the way, I said, I'm going to, 00:36:57 Eric:That.00:36:57 Jacob:I'm going to push it. We're going to standardize. But 00:36:59 Eric:It's not trademark, but knock it out. 00:37:01 Jacob:All right. So to fully like, to fully realize the potential to like help problems for people.Like, I think we need to lean into this more of this model. Right. Rather than I've always kind of like had an uncomfortable relationship with how our RevenueCat fits into the like hyper fast monetization stuff. Right. I'm like, get users, check your CAC, put more money into Facebook. Right. And so, the more the industry gets away from that. The happier I am. I don't know. Like you said, maybe it doesn't go quite as fast, but I think the overall Tam will be larger. Right? If we take that approach,00:37:33 Eric:Think that's right. And, you know, I mean, I've talked to a bunch of founders that haven't raised capital. Right. And they build something that like their users love. Right. Like, so I don't know if you guys saw the deal with day one that got bought by automatic braised almost as your outside capital.Right. He built. 00:37:46 Jacob:Big fans that they won. 00:37:47 Eric:Yeah. Yeah. I was a big,I got it's an awesome business and he did that exact same thing. Right. He just listened to his users. He didn't care about vanity metrics grew really nicely. Right. And it wasn't like, you know, he's not getting tech crunch publishing, but that's fine. Right. You know, on an amazing business.And then, you know, I've got a fantastic exit out of it. So I think, I think people are really waking up to that's a very much a possibility here in the.00:38:08 David:Yeah, one thing I wanted to highlight too, in that graph that you made, and for people that are listening to this, you can go to the show notes. We'll have links to the, Eric's presentation and you can find this chart, but to visualize it00:38:25 Jacob:Page 18. it open right here. 00:38:27 David:Following along at home, the, line for the locals drops.So, you know, even, even for locals, you're going to have some turn early on, but then it essentially flat lines. and I'm sure you did that very purposely to kind of illustrate how. How long term some of these, these, this retention can end up being, and it's something we've actually been talking on the podcast about recently is that we're so early in the space.We don't even really know what, how to measure LTV. Cause you're going to have people who ended up subscribing for decades. and years and years and years, if not decades. And so, and, and then, you know, to your point about the cheetah versus thoroughbred, another great chart in the patient number, Jacob Page number00:39:16 Jacob:I 00:39:17 David:Cheetah versus thoroughbred but in that tuna versus thoroughbred, The other aspect to locals, and we're kind of touched on it earlier is that those cohorts start to stack. So when you identify this cohort, that is going to be a very long-term cohort. That's going to stay subscribed and have very low churn. You, you acquire a hundred thousand this year, and then they're still there next year.And you put a hundred thousand on top of that. And those are still there next year. And by year three, you know, you just continue to grow this pie of people who are very, very sticky in the product. And I think that's part of what. you know, what you're talking about with delinquent and Bumble and other companies is like, we're still just starting to understand even as different as this is from SaaS.We're starting to see similar dynamics as far as. Early on the churn is so high, but then you do have this really strong stickiness over the long-term that, that, that can build a really healthy business of people who really love your, your product and really are invested in it and are going to stay for a really long time.So yeah, I just wanted to point that out that, that I, I love that aspect of the chart of how flat that line is for the locals. 00:40:35 Eric:I mean, you, you can see it in your own spending patterns, right? Like how many of you guys have subscribed to Netflix or Spotify for more than five years? I bet it's a good chunk of your listeners. Right? So, I mean, if I look at my phone, right, I'm going to subscribe to all trails for the next decade, 00:40:47 Jacob:Yeah, I've got CSS. I I've started subscribing to in 20 13, 14, like as 00:40:52 Eric:Yeah. 00:40:52 Jacob:It was a thing, 00:40:53 Eric:I've, been a script user for four years and I still download audio books or download other books from like the San Francisco library. Cause I'm probably the cheapest banker of all time. but you know, I still use script 00:41:04 Jacob:It's finding margin, Eric you're finding margin. That's what that is. 00:41:07 Eric:Exactly. I've pinched counties all day.But yeah, so I mean, I, I think those tails David to your point are still being written. And so that's the whole point, right? If you use average LTV and you say, all right, well, we have 30% churn that math means you lose every user in three years, and that's just not how it works. And if with really good businesses that are delivering value, right?And so then once you convince people of that, right, the investment case becomes a very different company.00:41:30 David:And speaking of that, you, you had a great, slide on investor benchmarks. And so I wanted to get to that real quick, tell me about how you, how you thought. These different metrics. And what, and how investors think about these metrics? Because you know, we're talking about LTV and in there you have LTV to CAC of you, you know, for a really strong app, that investor would be super excited about.You're closest to. Six X versus less than three X, you start to cool off. So, yeah. Walk us through each of these metrics and kind of how you think about it, how you think investors think about it, And even how that's kind of maturing as we understand the space better. 00:42:10 Eric:Yeah. And just to note like these metrics are all different for different types of businesses, right? If you've been around for a year, these metrics are very different versus if you've been around for 10 years, right. If you're in high growth, you know, venture back, spending a lot of money, these metrics look very different than if you're a bootstrap business, you know, just trying to inch out.You know, 10% growth a year. Right. So they can be very different. And the important thing is how does the story of your business and what you're trying to accomplish tie to these metrics? Right. So that's what we spent a lot of time talking to founders about is, is what's good based on what you're trying to do.Right. So it's just how you, how do you tell your story through the metrics? but yeah, so a couple of your points on the S on the slide, we talk about like user growth rates, gross margins, LTV to CAC, churn rates, free to paid conversion rate, and then sales efficiency. and then, you know, just to talk about something different, we, we talked about LTV a little bit earlier, but maybe talking about, churn, right.And so like how quickly do people churn off? Right. And so that's, there's a couple different ways to interpret churn, right? It's one, they didn't find your product. Too. They thought it was really expensive. or if they're not turning, they really love something you've put together. Right. And they decided to pay you multiple times for that either monthly or annual.And so what we just try to do is try to tell the story of where the business is at and where it's going by looking at these metrics. And so, you know, that's why it's so important to truly understand these metrics, because if you don't understand the metrics, it's hard to tie that to the story. so we spent a lot of time with any client or even non-clients just talking about this stuff to truly understand, you know, what investors care about.And it's, you know, if someone's buying the business, they may care a very good. They may care about very different metrics for someone who's investing your business for growth, right? So someone's going to put 40%, $40 million on your balance sheet to go grow. They may be focused less on LTV to CAC now because your LTV is not formally formed, right.They don't know how good it is, but they will focus very heavily on churn, which is a reflection of how good your product is and how good you're finding consumers that love your product. Right. So those, those are metrics that they may focus. They made me more comfortable spending a lot of money in the next two years.Right. So your CACs going to look a lot worse because they watched, you acquire a lot of users to make the platform a lot better. Right. And a lot of CSS businesses, right. UGC is a, is a, is a spinoff of user activity on the post. Beautiful uploading photos reviews. They're adding new new items on, on the platform for other users to use.And so it's worth spending more money to get those people in the first two to three years because your platform becomes that much better and that much more valuable, right? So you may be willing to burn down to a, an LTV to CAC of three X or something like that in the near term, or sometimes even two extra one X, because it's a land grab for those.Once you're on their platform right now. You want to see that LTV to CAC, start to move up a little bit, right? So you start to put it to four or five, six X, LTV to CAC. So it's all about where your business is. It's each different stage, but it's important to have a story and a message around why your numbers are, what they are.00:45:03 Jacob:Of the, I have the slides up in third slide, 37 for anybody who's following along at home. all of these as a veteran SAS CSS person, every annual user growth rate, gross margin to be cash I'll clear me, sales efficiency ratio. Can you talk about that one? Cause that one's, that one's, not as a little foreign to me. 00:45:22 Eric:Yeah. It's, it's a, it's more of a metric that's come out of SAS just to be honest. So it's thinking about like, it involves like how, how many users are you gaining? It's how much revenue you're gaining versus how much money are you putting out there? So it's a little bit of a different metric. and most CSS businesses don't get to that yet because they typically don't have heavy sales team.And so we've included it because you're starting to see some of these CSS businesses really start to grow. And so how much revenue gaining versus how much revenue you're losing and how much is it costing you to do that? And so that's when you're starting to get into like the tens to $20 million of, of, marketing spend a year, it's, it's, important to understand like how efficient is that spend being, and this is the best metric 00:46:00 Jacob:We, it says called sales, but you actually throw in marketing, spend in there as well. So it's like all go to market spend 00:46:07 Eric:Yeah. Are using head count, not just like the ad dollars. right. 00:46:10 Jacob:Right. 00:46:11 Eric:It's like a fully loaded CAC number, like 00:46:13 Jacob:Your, all of your people telling Facebook what to do, 00:46:17 Eric:Yep, exactly. Exactly. 00:46:18 Jacob:Content graders, like all that stuff, right? Yeah. 00:46:20 Eric:If you've got a hundred people running around campus, right. Promoting your app. Right. Okay. How much those people cost. Right. So it's an important way to think about how much you grow. And it's a way to think about like how well can you grow a capitally efficient capital with limited amounts of capital.So it's an important one. We look at it, it's typically a later stage, right? So you've gotta be like north of 20 million of 00:46:40 Jacob:So he's going to be super high when you're small, right? Because you're, you're your. 00:46:43 Eric:Sir. Request important. 00:46:44 Jacob:People are discreet. Right. And that you can't, you're not continuous. So, and also your, your, your revenue just grows less because of like, you know, you're smaller, you're less, well-known like, you're less is momentum is things like this. 00:46:56 David:Well, we're starting to run low on time, but there's so much more I want to talk to you about, but just to hit one last thing. I also love this chart you did, of Pandora versus Spotify. It's such a. And encapsulation, really everything that we've been talking about on this podcast is to see how well Spotify revenue has compounded over the past few years versus a Pandora, which, which look was the juggernaut.You know, when, when, when Spotify started. so, so walk us through this chart. And in how and why you think, you know, Spotify was able to, to grow the way they did while Pandora really struggled. And obviously there's a ton of, you know, other business factors and execution and other things. But, but I think overall, this does speak to the power of CSS.00:47:54 Eric:Yeah. And this is, this is something we did back in 2020 when we were just trying to decide like, Hey, what's is this CSS thing real? And, and a big question you get from, from investors. And listen, I think a lot of them have stopped asking this question because the case studies are out there is why would someone pay monthly or annually for something they can get for free?And by get for free, it means listening to, or watch. Right. And so I wanted to see like, alright, graphically or like actually numbers to will people, more companies make more money by making that really hard decision and say, pay me for what I'm giving you first. I'll give you something for free and exchange every half hour, you watch two minutes of ads, right?That's a really hard question to say, because it involves you putting a lot of value in your product. And so entrepreneurs, you know, product developers have to. Is this worth money or am I giving something out to people that, Hey, they'll kind of use it if they get it for free. Right? So it's a, it's a gut check for people to say, like, did I build something that someone will buy?That's hard. That's really challenging. Ask yourself, especially if you've started with advertising. and Spotify, you know, listen, they were a small company based in the Nordics, right. Versus Pandora US-based juggernaut and, and raised a lot of money. Right. That's a tough challenge. And so they took a really tough thing and said like, Hey, we're going to get.And make people pay for our product and we're going to make it better. But the crazy thing that happens though, right, is you make so much more on a user from subscriptions than you do from average. Right on advertising. You're trying to pick up pennies per subscription on some or pennies per user on the subscriber.You're making 10, 20 bucks a month, depending maybe maybe $60 a year for a subscriber. So the amount of users you have compounds so quickly, and then if you have that heavy retention, all of a sudden, you've got these really thick layers of cashflow that come in every year, use that cashflow. You invest it back in.He invested back in product and you do it again and again and again, and all of a sudden you've got a better product. And if you have a better product, people will come to it. And if it's something that they're using daily, right. Why would you not be comfortable like paying five bucks? Right. If I think about like how much my Netflix subscription is, right.It's $11 a month or something like that. Right. Well, I probably watch 10 hours of Netflix a month, right? So I'm paying a dollar an hour to be entertained. Pretty good deal. And so, like, I think if people, people start doing that math and you start to see like how powerful that that subscription is for user versus an ad driven, it becomes pretty interesting.And so I think you've seen this case study play out over and over and over across CSS, where if you build a good enough product, you know, a 10 X product versus the free option, people will pay for it. 00:50:24 David:And Spotify does double dip as well, which is interesting is that they have a good enough free tier and people can listen for free. But they choose to spend, even though they can. And so, so Spotify is a great example of, of double-dipping with a great freemium tier, but then a good enough product in a compelling enough reason that people will pay.00:50:47 Jacob:Yeah, another dimension. I don't know the specifics of Pandora and Spotify. It's like fundraising history, but if you have like the subscriber. Subscription revenue momentum makes capital more easy to access. And you look at some of this. I think of some of the strategic stuff that Spotify has done. Like they got the Beatles on Spotify pretty early on and lets up, they spent big on partnerships and Content and stuff.And if you have momentum, if you have hard dollars, it's a lot easier to go to an investor and be like, Hey, like I want to raise X million dollar. Revenue growth. I have, like, this is very clearly a business. I can remember raising money in the pre revenue is everything era or like trying to raise money.And it was like a lot harder. Right. Cause it was just like hand waves and we're going to grow and like, and now it's like, yeah, for better or worse, you go over the curtain and you show something. Right. But the big benefit too, I think for founders, it's not just for investor, for founders. It's like, yeah, you build a great business.You're building a safety net, right? Like if you can't fundraise, it's not the end of the world. Like you have options. And I think that's part of the reason why also, I mean, now we're getting into fundraising like macro, but that's part of the reason the funding environment is crazy because businesses are sturdier than they've ever been.Like they need capital less than they've ever needed it. Right. And so like, that's why it's gotten cheaper. or, you know, evaluation's gotten higher same thing. Right. So, Anyway. Yeah. And this is a fascinating to put this. I already was not on here, which was my horse. And I was like really pulling for them.And then it gets to a whole different story of why that's not on there. But, but yeah, it's fascinating.00:52:11 David:Well, I think that's a really fun place to end the story of Spotify, one of the biggest juggernauts in the space. We're going to include in the show notes a link to the report, a link to your LinkedIn and Twitter to follow along.Anything else you want to share as we wrap up? 00:52:27 Eric:No guys. Always a pleasure to join you. One thing for your audience users, we are trying to make the GP Bullhound CSS report a resource for founders. This year, for the first time ever, we did include a link to a survey.So, if you want to contribute your data, what we'll do is aggregate everything, anonymize it, and then we'll provide back a summary to users to say, “Hey, here's your LTV to CAC. How does this compare to other founders at this stage?” We are trying to be a resource. I'll probably give you guys that link, if you don't mind. We'd love to have as many people as possible. No pressure.Of course, all of it would be anonymized. This isn't a marketing tactic for us. It's us giving back to the community. We'd love people to take a second to do the survey, but if not, don't hesitate to email me, tweet at me, hit me on LinkedIn with questions, comments, and specifically stuff We got wrong. Absolutely love to hear where we can learn.00:53:22 Jacob:Yeah. 00:53:23 Eric:Because we're not building, we're just talking about what you guys are doing.00:53:26 Jacob:By the time you print this thing, it's like, stuff's changed, right? Like it's changing so fast.00:53:32 Eric:The whole Apple thing when we were publishing was happening everyday. And I was like, this is unbelievable.00:53:36 Jacob:And wait to...00:53:36 Eric:Since July, and I have to change every minute. Yeah. I had to change a PowerPoint. You guys had to change code. So I think one was a lot harder.00:53:44 David:Well, it was great having you on, Eric, and we'll have to make this an annual thing.00:53:49 Eric:Sounds good.You're welcome.00:53:51 Jacob:Yeah, we'll see you next year. 00:53:52 David:See you in 2022.00:53:54 Eric:All right. Thanks David. Thanks Jacob.

Dave Palet Talks Padres with Eric (No Longer Miserable) Padre fan

EMERGENCY!!! ERIC MOORE HAS LEFT THE BAND!!! What does this mean for the future of KGATLW?! Was the break-up mutual? Was it about the money? Was it about love? Help us figure it out on this weeks episode of the GizzVerse Podcast.

Ep 9 - WATER Eric –Welcome to episode #9 of the Canadian Prepper Podcast. Water (first of a few I’m sure:) My name is Eric, and I’m the host of the show.  I am based in southern Ontario. I’m a hunter, target shooter, HAM radio operator (VE3EPN), and computer geek. I got into preparedness when I was working front line in emergency services and witnessed an over reliance on Emergency Services during major events, such has ice storms, power outages, etc. I started a small preparedness company to help get people prepared and able to look after themselves for at least 72 hours, if not longer.   Ian – My name is Ian, co-host of the show.  I live on Vancouver Island, on a small hobby farm.   I am an outdoor enthusiast, target shooter, reloader, and my farm’s designated handyman. My professional background has allowed me to see pretty much every province and territory in Canada.  It also has taught me to adapt to unexpected situations daily, and learn quickly as I go.   Gavin - Hi, I am Gavin, regular panelist on the other CPP, an instructor with Ragnarok Tactical, a volunteer first responder, hunter, camper, business owner and CCFR Field Officer for the GTA.   Alan- I’m Alan, and my friends and family call me a safety nerd. My background as a Medical First Responder with St John Ambulance developed a mind for safety. I spent 17 years seeing people at their worst. I teach first aid and coach families to be better prepared   Eric – We have some great content for you in this episode, first of all our panel is growing! We’re going to start off with some news articles relating to preparedness and the outdoors. Next we will be letting you know how we’ve improved our preparedness since our last episode, ,  and then were going to get into the main topic for this episode, Water needs, storage, disinfection, and its role in preparedness. News - Ian - Wind storm update.   final tally was 756k customers with no power. https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/canada/british-columbia/article-december-windstorm-most-destructive-in-bc-hydros-history/ Lessons learned from the power outage , by non-preppers. https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4963867 Eric - Dec 8th 2018 - Global News - Halton Region’s medical officer of health has issued a boil water advisory for parts of Milton, Ont., following a water main break. The advisory is expected to remain in place until at least Monday. (2 Days) Affected residents are advised to boil water for at least one minute and use bottled water for drinking, brushing teeth and preparing food. It is still safe to bathe in the water for adults and older teens, but the water should not be swallowed. Special care must also be taken when washing dishes, and dishwashers should reach 60 C or higher for the dishes to be safely disinfected. https://globalnews.ca/news/4743326/boil-water-advisory-milton/ Wanted to cover this article since it’s a common occurance and something you want to be ready for when putting your preps together.   Panel time to discuss news articles if they have anything to add.   WHAT WE’VE DONE LATELY for preps   Ian -  working like a dog. 13/16 days.   Bought and sold a few bits on CGN.  No preps, other than online shopping for 1000 gal water containers.  (Next major purchase)   Eric - Stocked up the water supply at Costco, grabbed a few cases of water (40 packs) for $2.80. Moved a bunch of dried firewood into the house and garage so we’re ready for the snow, assuming it ever shows up. Alan - The local no-frills had cases of water on sale this week for 88 cents, so I bought 50. I updated my EDC kits for my job to reflect the combination of being in the office and on construction sites. There was a short-term power outage at home the other day so I got to test my plan. Flashlights were easy to find, candles were easy to set up and everything went well. The power came back on about 7 hours later before we had to address the fridge contents. I also updated my shelf-stable food contents. A full house here could be well-fed for about three weeks currently, and stretch it out for six weeks if we really had to.   Gavin - beefed up my very small experimental indoor garden from 3 plants to 12, added some more search and rescue training to my knowledge base with an intro to Search Manager/Resource Manager/Crew Leader and Route Supply.   Eric - Alright, it’s time to move onto the main topic of the show. . .  water needs, storage, and disinfection.   Alan - Needs - 2 liters per day just for drinking!  More if actually working/trying to survive:) Gavin- Not counting dishes, toilets, animals, hygiene , cooking, etc   Eric - Role in preparedness? Ian -Key, just not as exciting as going to the range!   Try going without:). Can be the first concern in certain cases (rural). Different in the city with a water tower .  It runs dry too. 5 months with no rain in BC…. Disinfection Bleach - 2 drops per liter (Bleach only lasts a year or so) Pool shock- hfx prepper https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=je43MloGJ-s Amazon pool shock - https://www.amazon.com/DryTec-1-1901-Hypochlorite-Chlorinating-Treatment/dp/B009S85LEA   Iodine - Sterile water, dual use as topical disinfectant   SODIS - Solar Distillation http://www.sodis.ch/index_EN , SODIS book here.  http://www.sodis.ch/methode/anwendung/ausbildungsmaterial/dokumente_material/sodismanual_2016_lr.pdf   Berkey Home made pail filter Sawyer - Walmart in US, Amazon.ca Lifestraw - obsolete Coffee filters / strainers /colanders AquaTabs - water purification tablets, package comes with 50 tablets, each tablet is good for 1L of water Storage   Water bob/bathtub (100Gallons / 378 L) Does Not need a bathtub can support itself, however a bathtub makes things easier. Barrels 2 liters Office cooler jugs Renewable supply-Rain Hot Water Tank - Often forgotten however holds a significant amount of water. Be aware however of the drain (is it operational?) If you don’t maintain the tank it could be filled with horrible sludge. Depending on the type of anode you have the water could be contaminated with Aluminum. Usage rates - Toilets up to 5 gal/flush Low flow highly recommended Animal needs? Ian - PODCAST CHALLENGE Buy a 1 gallon jug of unscented bleach, or I package of pool shock. Figure out 1 way to filter water with your supplies on-hand.   Shout Outs Ian - Patricia Robitaille and Robert Miron.  Authors of the CBC article. Non-preppers who improvised and overcame, without sitting around waiting for others to help them. Despite the haters! Eric - Terry Blackmore, author of Antigenic Shift, and fan of the podcast. . . if you haven’t already grab a copy of his book from Amazon! I have a signed copy I plan on keeping and selling for millions one day. https://www.amazon.ca/Antigenic-Shift-Book-1-Pandemic-ebook/dp/B07D4Z3PBK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1547080087&sr=8-1&keywords=antigenic+shift   Episode Closing Eric - Listener Email. . . If you want to send in a question, email, or suggest a topic send an email to feedback@prepperpodcast.ca. One listener email since last episode. . .Hey guys,   Just caught up with your recent first aid episode and I just wanted to let you know my experience with the Red Cross. I took my certification in April 2018 and they did do hands on training with commercial tourniquets. They used actual CATs but only applied them to paint rollers, so they were smaller than you would normally deal with and had no clue as to how tight you actually need them to go. Thankfully, they taught them correctly and told you not to loosen them or remove them but the subject was over quickly.   Keep up with the great work on the podcast!   All the best, Better Andrew He also mentioned a few things we could implement during the show and we’ll add those to future episodes, thanks for the suggestions!   Ian - Itunes reviews? Eric - No new written iTunes reviews, still last comment from Sasquatch Research Scientist. However we do have a PodBean review from the last episode… TheTorqueMaster - Another excellent Podcast with a wealth of good information on first aid training, knowledge and gear. Keep up the great works guys.   Outro Eric -  I’m going to bring episode 9 of the Canadian Prepper Podcast to an end. . . Gavin and Alan thank you for coming out and being a part of this episode! I hope you’ll come back for future episodes and share your knowledge with our listeners! Where can people find the show? Gavin- You can find the podcast on Itunes, Podbean, Spotify or your favourite podcast app.  Please help us out take a few minutes and submit a review! It helps other people find us.   Alan - You can also find us at prepperpodcast.ca.  Our Youtube live shows are now available, please subscribe to “The Island Retreat “ YouTube channel, and click the notifications tab.  That gives you alerts when we are going live. Ian - If you want to contact me ( Ian) directly, you can reach me at theislandretreat@gmail.com, You can also occasionally find me giving my .02 worth on Canadian Patriot Podcast, also available on Itunes and Youtube. Eric – Please  check out Rapid Survival www.rapidsurvival.com and get me there on live chat while buying some prepper gear, or you can also email me at feedback@prepperpodcast.ca (while still buying prepper gear at Rapid Survival) Eric - Thanks for joining us, and tune in for the next episode, where we will talk about HAM Radio and Prepper Communication  Eric - Until next time, be prepared, stay safe, and (Ian) keep learning!

Here we go again! Welcome to episode number 2, of the Eric NO! podcast. Today, Eric is a little under the weather so he apologizes for his lack of "preparation." However, hilarity ensues as Eric takes us on a journey to that one time he visited a brothel. Take a listen and laugh your butt off with the second episode. 

Here we go again! Welcome to episode number 2, of the Eric NO! podcast. Today, Eric is a little under the weather so he apologizes for his lack of "preparation." However, hilarity ensues as Eric takes us on a journey to that one time he visited a brothel. Take a listen and laugh your butt off with the second episode. 

Episode number 1 is up and running. Listen as Eric struggles in the "unique" environment where he is recording. During this time, Eric discusses the genesis of the show name "Eric NO!" We listen in on a dinner conversation at a mohel's house. And try to figure out what happened to Eric's dog Chloe. Was is it a sick prank? Tune in and find out.

Episode number 1 is up and running. Listen as Eric struggles in the "unique" environment where he is recording. During this time, Eric discusses the genesis of the show name "Eric NO!" We listen in on a dinner conversation at a mohel's house. And try to figure out what happened to Eric's dog Chloe. Was is it a sick prank? Tune in and find out.

Episode 20: Eric Mac Lain | Former Clemson University All-ACC Offensive Lineman Subscribe on  Stitcher (http://bit.ly/2qnGiRP) Rich Take On Sports Show Notes: Rich Spotlight: Eric Mac Lain Life has been a whirlwind for him lately with a new job with JMI Sports, moved to Greenville, SC and was recently married on June 24th Started playing soccer but Basketball was his first love and dreamed of playing in the NBA and his dad didn’t want him and his brother to play football Started out as a Tight End but continued to play basketball throughout high school and it was the summer basketball camps that he went to each summer, not football Eric went to a football camp at the University of Tennessee and met Coach Dan Brooks at the camp. Head Coach Phillip Fulmer offered him a scholarship during camp His mom didn’t understand the magnitude of the offer but his dad did and wanted them to turn around and tell Coach Fulmer thank you The offer remained very quiet however Coach Fulmer was fired and that led to Eric not knowing exactly his status at Tennessee Coach Brooks was now at Clemson University and wanted Eric and his family to visit Clemson on their way home during Spring Break Eric didn’t even know if Clemson was a Division I school Everything lined up for a perfect visit to Clemson and he fell in love with staff and campus Entered as a Tight End and the speed of the game was big adjustment so he red-shirted He eventually made the move the Offensive Line after the Tigers sustained multiple injuries on the line in a game versus NC State During his Senior season, he was selected Pre-Season First-Team All-ACC by the media and coaches and he’s convinced that it was because the media enjoyed his interviews Knew he gave everything he had in the National Championship game versus Alabama and was sad that the team lost but even harder for him was the fact that it was the last time he would wear a Clemson football uniform Unfortunately, things with the NFL did not work out but it was easy for him to stop playing because he wasn’t defined by being a football player Eric firmly believed that he is a son of God and therefore that’s how he’s defined and this allowed him to stop playing and not have any issues because he was no longer a football player Words of Wisdom from Eric: “No matter who you’re talking to, no matter where you are; always treat it and handle it like it’s an interview.” Social Media: To Follow Eric Mac Lain on Twitter:  @Mr_Clemson (https://twitter.com/Mr_Clemson) Find JMI Sports Information:  JMI Sports (http://www.jmisports.com/) To Follow Rich Take On Sports on Twitter:  @richtakesports (https://twitter.com/richtakesports)

Worship Leader and Songwriter Dustin Smith joins me for an honest conversation about leading teams, being a man of character, obedience is success and speaking hope in the midst of what seems hopeless.

In this brand-new episode of the Sales Funnel Mastery podcast, I am interviewed by Eric Barton. I guarantee this is one of the most value-packed interviews you've ever listened to. Here are a few things we discussed...1) Why most people talking about conversion rates aren't telling you the WHOLE truth...2) 3 quick and easy ways to increase retention rates...3) How to increase price and skyrocket net profits without dropping conversions...4) A current split-test I'm running which you've NEVER heard of (but must try!)...5) And tons more!After listening, head on over to http://www.JeremyReeves.com   Transcript: Hey, welcome back to another episode of the Sales Funnel Mastery podcast. I hope you’re loving what you’re getting so far. I have a ton more content coming up for you. I wrote out the other day about sixty different ideas. That’s not even including interviews, which I’m going to try to do about once every two weeks or so. For this podcast, I have something a little bit different for you. In fact, this is the actually the first interview, except the difference is I’m not going to be interviewing somebody else. I’m going to be giving you an interview that somebody did for me. I’m going be getting interviewed. It was an interview from Eric Barton, from Fast Easy Success. When we talked, we went over a lot of really, really good marketing stuff; including a conversion split test that I’m currently running. It’s still running right now, but I guarantee you it’s something you’ve never heard before. It’s definitely something you want to try because as of right now, it’s winning by about 50 percent over my control. You’ll see in this interview that the percent doesn’t really matter, but it’s winning right now. I think the comp was about 92 percent. Here is that episode. I hope you really enjoy it. Let me know what you think. Eric: Welcome to episode ten of the Fast Easy Success Marketing Insider podcast. I want to thank everyone for tuning into the Fast Easy Success Marketing Insider. A lot of exciting things coming today and in the future for you. Make sure you hit that subscription button right now, so you don’t miss out on the value-packed podcast coming your way as well. Before we dive into our show and our very special guest today, I just want to welcome everyone to head over to fasteasysuccess.com. Go ahead and grab your business building tips sent directly to your email daily. When you head over to fasteasysuccess.com, I’m also giving you your free business cheat sheets. This is going to help you with your websites, emails and writing. Let’s dive in because I’m excited to have this special guest coming on the show today. If you haven’t discovered this man yet, you’re definitely in for a treat today. He’s a direct response copywriter who actually specializes in building very profitable sales funnels for clients. You may even have heard this man referred to as the sales funnel specialist, and really the world’s number one most trust sales funnel authority. Ladies and gentlemen, joining us today, I want to welcome to the show, Jeremy Reeves. Jeremy, thanks so much for taking the time to jam with us today. Jeremy: Thanks for having me. I’m really, really excited. I used to get a little nervous getting interviewed, but I’m actually very pumped to be talking to you. Eric: Beautiful. That’s what I like to hear. I’m sure the audience is definitely, they got their ticket to this profitable thrill ride and ready to jump in. Let’s just ask real quick, for the people who are not familiar with you, can you originally tell people how you started out in the sales marketing or copywriting world or how you really go involved? Jeremy: One thing I want to say, just as everybody is listening at the beginning of the interview, I’ve listened to a lot of interviews. I listen to a whole bunch of podcasts and all that kind of stuff. Personally, I have never been a huge fan of interviews because a lot of people take too long to tell their stories and don’t really give a lot of good advice, just in general. I did want to throw out there that I am really going to give out a lot of really, really good content. It’s not going to be all about me. I’ll give you my quick little story here for about 30 seconds, but then I’d like to just jump in. I like to demonstrate my authority by demonstrating that I actually know what I’m talking about, instead of telling my story. I just wanted to throw that out there in the beginning. I like to do unique interviews. Eric: Nice. Jeremy: For my short little blurb here, I got started as a direct response copywriter, writing sales copy for clients. Right at the beginning of my career with that, which was about, roughly seven years ago, I realized that writing, understanding the dynamics of writing copy and being able to sell on paper and all that good stuff really doesn’t do much if the strategy behind the copy isn’t right. I really started focusing a lot on the marketing strategy and how to write the copy to fit that strategy. If you have bad strategy with a great copy, it’ll do okay; but if you have incredible strategy and okay copy, it can still do fantastic. The strategy really compels it. When you add the really good, hard-hitting copy on top of it, that’s when things really take off. I really started focusing on the marketing strategy behind the copy and that led me down, through working with all kinds of different clients, a lot of the industry leaders that you’re probably familiar with. It really made me specialize and focus on building sales funnels, because I realized a lot of the challenges that people deal with have to do with not having systems in place and not having—basically, not being able to buy paid traffic; which is one thing I really, really focus on. When you have an automated sales funnel in place, you can pretty much look at your sales funnel as a whole and see, I got 1,000 people that hit the first part of the sales funnel. By the time they got to the end, I made X dollars. You know what each person is worth or your earnings per visitor. That way you know what you can pay for traffic. If your average earnings per visitor, for each person that you send to a landing page, for example, the first part of the funnel, if that’s $5, then you know you can pay $2, $3 or $4, whatever you want to keep your margin at, to get new people into the funnel. It really makes your business really, really stable. Then you keep tweaking and testing and making everybody worth more money. That’s where all the fun comes in. That’s pretty much my history. Basically, started as a copywriter, went into strategy. I worked with all kinds of different business owners from internet marketers to a couple celebrities and really high name, high profile clients; to even all the way on the other side of the coin, to people like, dry cleaners and hair dressers and people like that. A pretty big gamut of people that I’ve worked with. Eric: Right. That’s what I was saying, it works with a lot of online and as well as offline. It works with the large and the small businesses. One thing I wanted to ask, it’s been the theme the show, I’m going to ask it in the beginning, because I think if they set up in the beginning, it’s going to help. This goes into what you were talking about, the paid traffic. Really what I’m referring to is the un-sexy sales secret, which is what I call it, is lead generation. I think, unfortunately, this is a point that a lot of business owners get wrong. A lot of people mix up with lead generation with customer generation. A lot of times they want customers instead of leads. Leads are something that you nurture. You can grab the low hanging fruit, obviously, but it’s something you have to build. Can you share your thoughts or what’s your view on the lead generation part of whether they’re starting a funnel or just bringing them to a sales page or website et cetera? Jeremy: Yeah. There’s a lot to go into on that. I’ll just take when I’m working with clients, I’ll go off of that. One of the things that I try to do, a lot of people talk about cost per lead and things like that. That’s good … Eric: Bad? Jeremy: No, it’s definitely good to know and I track that metric and all that, but there’s a big difference in the quality of leads. Let’s just say you have Facebook ads, Google ads and SEO, you’re doing those three things. You might have leads that are worth, let’s say your average lead on Google AdWords is worth $3. It might be worth only $1 on Facebook and $6 for SEO. You really have to look at, I’m getting this amount of leads from this source, but what are they worth to the business? Because everything, the leads coming in, they all have different values. Eric: That’s a great point. I think that’s what a lot of people mix up too. They’re getting in a lot of leads, and they’re like, yeah, I’m doing good. But how much is that lead actually worth, like you just said. That’s a great point. Jeremy: Exactly. You could even dive in more. For example, I have Facebook campaign that I’m running right now. We tag them as Facebook leads and I can track it overall and look at it every month and say, we’ve got 1,000 leads this month and we made $3,000 from that. We spent $1,500, whatever the numbers are. If you want to even take it to another level, you can tag them by the audience that you’re targeting. For example, let’s just say you’re in health and you’re targeting men, 50 plus, and then another group is women, 30 plus, whatever. It could be anything that you’re targeting. You can actually tag them as that, and then track those specific things; so you know, not only do you know how much your average Facebook lead is worth, but you could also say, I have these two segments that we’re targeting. This one is worth this much; this one is worth this much. You can get pretty crazy with the metrics. I usually recommend that for people that are really advanced and trying to take it to a completely new level and gains a huge competitive advantage. That particular one is more for people that are a lot more advanced. Eric: It’s a little more work. It’s more profitable, but it is more work. If it’s something that competition isn’t really willing to do, that’s a good thing for people in our world. This can go into the testing, too, because that’s something that you’re definitely known for is heavy testing. Do you do the simple split, like A, B, split test or really how do you start your test? What’s the best way you start testing where people can do that? Jeremy: That’s a good question. I get extremely mad at a lot of people in the conversion rate optimization field. That was one thing that probably last year, it might have even been 2012. In the last two years, I was really heavily involved in that. I got offered a really healthy, six figure offer by one of the biggest conversion rate optimization companies in the world and turned that down. I’m still really friends with them. I just don’t want a job. There’s so much I can go into here. There’s a lot of things that you need to look out for when you test. One of the things you’ll hear—and I’m not going to give out any names here, because I don’t like to make enemies. A lot of people when they say, “We got an 80 percent increase doing this.” “We got a 60 percent increase doing that.” If you look at the actual stats and sometimes they’ll show you in a video, they’ll show you a screen shot of their stats and all that. A lot of times you’ll notice that the numbers are really small. Maybe they hit 95 percent confidence. If you’re familiar with testing, you’ll know what I mean, but it’s essentially 95 percent chance of that test being a winner. It doesn’t mean that you have a 95 percent chance of that test winning by that percentage. For example, let me pull up a test I have running right now for a Facebook campaign. It’s running to a landing page. The one call to action on there is “give me my free report.” It’s the control, call to action. The one I’m testing it against is “show me your sales funnel secrets.” That’s the A, B test. They get split up. Eric: Sure. Jeremy: Let me go to my results. It just became a winner this morning. The control, which was—I forget it already. The control, which was “get instant access,” I think it was, is converting at 24 percent and the “show me your sales funnel secrets” is converting at 39.68 percent. This is a fairly new test. It’s only been up a day or two. The percentage improvement is 65.34 percent. A lot of times you’ll see a lot of experts showing that, “Hey, I got a 65 percent improvement,” and they pretend they’re big, they know everything about split testing and all that. This one, by the way, has a 98 percent chance to beat the original. Eric: 98 percent, nice. Jeremy: What’s that? Eric: I said, 98 percent? Jeremy: Yeah, 98 percent. Eric: Nice. Jeremy: This one is a winner, right? What a lot of people won’t tell you—and this is something that’s really, really important to understand—is that, right now it has a 65 percentage improvement, but it’s everything always comes back to the norm. Even though it’s a winner, as more conversion data comes in—this is only based off, I have 43 conversions total. As I get up to 100, 200, 300 conversions and there’s more data, that percentage of improvement is going to come down and get closer to the median or closer to normal, where it would be even. Eric: Right. Jeremy: Basically, the thing to take away is that when people tell you, “We did X and we doubled our results.” Don’t listen to the percentage that they tell you, just get the idea. The idea, for my example, so you guys can test this, is test something normal that you would normally use; “get instant access,” “get free report now,” whatever is, versus something that’s a little bit more like a more novel, more “show me your sales funnel secrets.” It’s not something they see every day. Test that, but don’t look at the—when conversion rates experts tell you the numbers, don’t really pay attention to any of that. Just pay attention to what the strategy behind it was, and then do your own testing. Mine is 65 percent now. I’m going to let it run a week and after that, it might only be 30 percent or it might be 20 percent. It should still be a winner. It’s just that the percentage of an improvement is the one thing that—basically, don’t get too excited about it. Eric: Do you have any advice on how long they should let a test run? Is there a certain amount of views or clicks you should let a test, on average, run? Jeremy: That’s a good question. It really depends on a couple factors. What I usually do is look for at least 30 conversions for each of the variations. If you have two variations, wait until you get at least 30 to 50 conversions on each of them. You also always want to make sure that you do it for at least a week, so it can go through. You’ll find that out that some days convert a lot higher than other days. If you really dig into the data, weekends might do really bad or really good or whatever, so that’s the second thing. I use Visual Website Optimizer. Any split testing software you use is going to give you a chance to beat the original. You always want that to be above 95 percent. A little bit of a caveat to that is that if you have a business and you don’t have a lot of conversions, it takes you awhile. It’s really just a percentage game. It’s just a chance that you have. It’s a very high probable chance. This one, for example, has a 98 percent chance to beat the original. That doesn’t mean that it’s absolutely going to beat the original. It means that I have a 2 percent of that actually losing. Don’t think of testing as a definite thing. Think of it is as, this is the most likely scenario. If you’re testing and you don’t have a lot of data, if it takes you three months to get one test done, just go with whatever you’re comfortable with. If you get up to 90 percent chance to beat the original, then go with that. Just go with whatever. I usually recommend 95, but you also have to look at the time factor and the time cost too. Eric: That’s true. Jeremy: That’s just a couple things to think about. Eric: Let’s say you had that definite winner, and that Facebook button was the winner for you, the submit button; would you challenge that to another test then? Do you say, lesson learned for now, that’s the winner. I’ll let that go and move onto the next thing I want to test, whether it be a website or something else. Jeremy: That’s another good question. What I’ll do is this is a winner, has a couple days left. Whenever a week is over, if it’s still a winner, on the page, I’ll change it to the winner. At that point, I’m trying to think. I will probably, on this landing page, I will, I actually might do a little bit more of a big test. The landing page right now is all text based, so I actually might go to an all text, to just a video and an opt-in form, something big like that. Pretty much, when it comes to figuring out what to test next, I look for the things on the page that are going to make the biggest improvements; so going from an all text to all video. The call to action button, believe it or not, it’s a big factor. Eric: No, it is. I think a lot of people miss that. When I changed my opt-in on my site, I tested it all that time. Just simple changing of words can make a huge, dramatic—a perfect example, my Facebook fan page, a client had something like “send my email here.” We changed it to a simple, “give me the info.” It dramatically increased the opt-in that same day. We let it run and that’s what we’ve been using, but just simple, like you said could be huge. A lot of people drop the ball on the simple stuff. Jeremy: Yeah. It really can, especially, the shorter the page, the more that’s going to have an effect. If you have a 15 page long sales letter, doing “add to cart” versus “buy now” probably won’t make a huge difference, but if you have just a quick little landing page, then it can make a huge difference. Eric: Right. Jeremy: Even with that, another cool little thing to try just to get people’s minds, get it creative and going a little crazy, is one of the things—and I might do this for my next test, I’m not sure. I’m excited about the idea because I don’t remember seeing it before. You’re going to get an exclusive idea here. What I’m going to test now is “show me your sales funnel secrets” versus a big, huge call to action button that essentially has 30 or 40 words in it. It’s like, “Give me your secret that you’ve invested or that you’ve got over a million dollars worth of testing research under your belt. This is what you came up with;” something really, really long. Eric: Oh, nice, like a direct response order form button or kind of like “Yes, Eric, I’m ready to invest.” Jeremy: Yeah. Something like that, but in a button form on a regular landing page. Eric: Nice. Jeremy: To be honest, I have no idea if it’s going to work or not. It might bomb horribly. I have no idea. I’ve never seen that done before, so I’m going to do it. I, personally, think that it’s going to work, just because you have to read every word of that. Nobody’s ever seen that before, so the novelty of it, the newness and uniqueness of it. As soon as people hit that page, how do you not read that? Eric: Right. That’s going to be a button form, kind of thing, where they push it? Jeremy: Yeah. Eric: Yeah. I haven’t seen that done. Definitely let me know how that works out for you. That’s going to be interesting. Jeremy: I’m excited. Eric: That’s nice. I know what we’re talking about is once you’re doing the testing, they’ve come to your page or they’ve opted in. This is the thing, like you said, too, that you really work with clients with this, is building their sales funnels. If we could maybe dive into a little bit about how business owners can go out and find the holes currently in their funnels or if they’re starting out, how they can get that process at least started, to make it profitable from the jump. Jeremy: I’ll take that in two different ways. If you’re just starting up, what you want to do is—I’m going to try to make it as generally applicable to everybody listening. When you’re just starting up, let’s say that your order process is, somebody comes into your website, they buy and they get the thank you email saying, “Your order was successful,” and that’s it. It’s not really even a sales funnel, but it’s a way to get them in, I guess. What you want to do and most basic thing that I always try to get people to do is, number one, give away some type of value added thing. It could be a free report, a video, anything that gives value to the people that you’re trying to serve, to get them to essentially raise their hand and say, “Hey, I’m interested in what you’re selling.” You put them onto a prospect auto responder list. The point of that is to sell them your main product, whatever that is. After they buy your main product, you should have—I’m trying to think of a minimum here. I would say probably at least two other, either products or services. One thing is I always try to tell people, if you’re a service business, make sure you have product. If you’re a product business, make sure you have services. It’s really the only way to maximize your funnel and really find those hyper buyers in your list that are going to pay you for anything that you come out with. Eric: That’s a great point. Can I ask on a sidetrack, but related. Do you find that a lot of clients come to you from your products that you release or vice versa, they become your clients and then go after your products? Jeremy: Both actually. A pretty huge percentage of clients will buy a product, and then I hear from them three days later. It’s usually along those lines, for me personally. I mean, it’s different for everybody. My services are really expensive, in the four and five figures, so people want to make sure that I know what I’m talking about. I’ll get a lot of emails that say, “Hey, Jeremy, I just bought X product. Didn’t even go through it. I just wanted to make sure you were the real deal and you actually did what you said you did. That’s why I’m writing to you now and I want to talk about hiring you.” I get those emails all the time because I’m the sales funnel guy and people want to go through my process, and say, “Let’s see if the sales funnel guy has his own sales funnel.” Eric: Yeah. See if he’s just preaching there, exactly. Jeremy: I get a lot of those emails. I also get a lot of people that come in and they become clients or coaching students or whatever, and they want to learn more. These are mostly the business owners that they really love to learn. They just can’t get enough information, so they’ll be working with me as they’re going through my products. Eric: Right. Those are the best kind of clients, absolutely. Jeremy: Yeah. It’s kind of both. Eric: Nice. Sorry about that. I didn’t mean to get you sidetracked. I thought it was important to throw that out to the audiences that are trying to get some products. That’s a good way to bring in business as well. Jeremy: For everybody that has a service business. I’m doing this Facebook campaign. It’s giving away a free report, getting them into my funnel. I just had somebody, I think it was yesterday, where I looked at their—I like to look at the—I have office autopilot, I can see, somebody opted in for this and went to this page, and they filled out this form, so I can see the whole process of everything they did. Yeah, it’s pretty cool. It essentially tracks all the pages, and you can see the whole process that they went through. This happens all the time. This one is just one example. They opted in. They’re from Facebook, so they never heard of me before. They opted into the same landing page that I’ve been talking about. Three minutes after that, they went to my services page and read my service about building sales funnels and opted into that. They became a coaching prospect, I guess you could say, or a client prospect. It’s pretty cool. You get ancillary benefits of doing a lot of traffic. You should factor that in, by the way, to when you’re buying paid traffic. There’s always that little side shoe. If you’re selling products, there’s always a certain number of people that are going invest in your services and other products and things like that. Eric: Nice. Jeremy: I forget where I was going with that. Eric: I’m sorry. I threw you off. We were talking about, basically, with everything, that’s part of the funnel process obviously. Let’s say someone has an auto responder set up, someone has a product or services; is there common holes that you’ve found with clients that are maybe just leaking profits for them or something they could do to plug those holes up real quick? Jeremy: Yeah. That’s an interesting one. Holes in their funnels? It usually has to do with the frequency of communication. What that means is, essentially, a lot of people—and I mean, by a lot of people, I mean probably 90 plus percent of entrepreneurs—they’re kind of afraid of communicate with their prospects. Personally, I have a hard time understanding this. It might just be for me. I kind of got my chops reading J. Abraham and strategy preeminence where everything is just, you just start the relationship by adding value. That might be the reason for that. Everything I do, it starts with value. I don’t ever, ever expect anybody to do business with me before me providing them value first. The thing with communication is people are afraid they’re going to annoy their lists. It’s kind of bogus because they wouldn’t be doing business with you, they won’t be on your list unless they wanted to hear from you. If you have a weight loss website or if you’re a dentist and somebody signs up for your newsletter or whatever. They did that. It’s not like somebody is holding a gun to their head and they made them sign up for the newsletter. They did that because they want to hear from you. They want to hear about you, about what you do about how you can help them. About how you helped other people. To see you demonstrate your expertise so they can make a decision whether they should go with you or somebody else. The biggest hole when you’re building your funnel is, make sure that you’re communicating with your prospects as much as you possibly can. That includes auto responder sequences. It includes retargeting campaign, people who saw certain pages and didn’t buy what you have. You follow up with them with banners or Facebook ads, doing retargeting. You can do direct mail, emails, postcard, text messages, voice mails. There’s all kinds of stuff, but make sure that you are communicating with them frequently. Along with that, getting them in as risk free as possible. Usually start with whatever your lowest price product or service is and offer them that, get them into the buying cycle. It gets them used to spending money with you and then just constantly working on taking them up the ladder. Let’s just say right now you have a $37 product and a service that’s $97 a month, just for an example. Once you start getting people that are going to that $97 a month product or service, you should be thinking, what else? How can I add more value to these people and charge a higher price? Usually, that’s a “done for you” thing, or more of a step-by-step process. Coaching, you can do coaching in almost any business. Any business that you have. You want to make things faster or easier for people, and then get creative. Think of new products, new services, that you can charge more money for because there’s just a lot of people. There’s a certain percentage in every audience that will spend several times more money with you than you’re currently offering them. That’s a huge hole that I find in almost everybody’s funnel. They don’t have enough high priced, high ticket items. It really makes a huge, huge difference. If you’re selling $37 products and you have a $5,000 product, you only have to sell—or let’s just say for easy math, a $30 product and a $6,000 really high ticket thing. You have to sell 200 of the $30 products, for one of the $6,000 sales. Eric: Nice. Jeremy: If you’re selling 200 a month, you’re making $6,000 a month. You add in a $6,000 product and you sell one of those to one out of every 200 people, you’ve just doubled your business. It’s really, really important to have those high priced, high ticket offers in there. It really can do some pretty amazing things to your bottom line. A lot of times, if they are services or something like that, they’re higher profit too. Your profit margin is, typically at least, if it’s one-on-one coaching or something like that. Your profit margin is pretty huge. Eric: Right. Are you a big fan of the marketing ladder? Say, moving people up from the $39 e-book or product all the way up to the “done for you” services, et cetera? Jeremy: Yeah, absolutely. I actually have tomorrow and Friday, we’re recording this on a Wednesday, tomorrow, Thursday and Friday, I have back-to-back in-person, full day consultations with a client. Eric: Nice. Jeremy: It’s $3,000 a day, so it’s $6,000 in two days. That’s essentially, for me, an upsell from my typical monthly coaching program. It’s essentially doing several months in advance, doing it in one or two days. It’s a way to do everything faster for people. It’s very, very profitable doing that. Definitely, because people want to spend more money with you, it’s just a matter of showing them the value. It really all comes back down to value. I could go out there and have $100,000 coaching program, but if I can’t show people that they’re going to make $500,000 or $1 million, then nobody is going to buy it. You have to find out how much value you can provide to people and then charge accordingly. Eric: That makes sense. I guess what you said before, and I wanted to ask you about this, I know you’ve said before the truth about price; what the main reason people really buy your product or services is? Jeremy: Yeah. A lot of people think that people buy based off price. In some cases, it’s true. Sometimes people literally just don’t have the money to pay you. I was talking to someone who desperately wanted to join my coaching program, but she couldn’t afford it because she was going month to month and she could barely even put food on the table. I was like, “Listen, don’t even.” She wanted to join, she’s like, “No, no, I’ll sell something,” or whatever. I said, “Listen, I’m not comfortable enough. If this doesn’t work, you literally can’t feed yourself. I just can’t live with that.” I guess that’s a good demonstration of my sales funnel selling her on my coaching program. It’s the same way with your sales funnel. You want to make sure that people understand the value that you’re providing them. That’s what it really comes down to. In most cases, like in 90 percent of cases, it’s not that something is too expensive. It’s that they don’t see that the value you’re providing is more than the prices they’re paying. If you’re offering, we’ll go to health, just because it’s easy and it’s relatable. Say it’s $97. If you don’t show the value is worth more than $97, then people aren’t going to buy. Whereas, if you show them that its worth $197, $297, $997, whatever it is, then people are more likely to buy on the higher you show that value, then the bigger gap between your price and the value. Obviously, with the value being higher, the higher your sales are going to be. That’s what copywriters do is, essentially, bring out that value and show the benefits and overcome the objections. That’s why operating it is so important, because when you really boil it down, that’s what we’re doing, is bringing out and showing people why they’re paying X dollars, but the value is X dollars times five, ten or twenty or whatever. Eric: Yeah. Like you’re saying, it doesn’t really have to be what you’re adding to it, you just have to raise the perceived value and that will raise the prices. Maybe a tip you give someone to raise the perceived value without adding more to their product or service or their widget? Jeremy: Yeah. That’s a good question. First of all, before I even get into that, raising your prices is probably the best and fastest way to grow your business. Eric: Right. Jeremy: I wish I could just get paid for saying, “Raise your price.” Because you can go into a million dollar business and say, “Raise your price ten percent,” and they can increase their profit by $100,000. If your margins are low, the lower your profit margin, the more you raise your price, the higher that multiple is. I can’t really do any examples off the top of my head because there’s a lot of math involved. Just basically, before I get into how to raise your perceived value so you can raise prices, make it a point to do a split test and raise your prices. If you’re nervous about it, I know a lot of people are, that’s totally fine. If you’ve never done it before, don’t be worried about being nervous about. Do it at 5 percent or 10 percent or something like that. If you think about it, if you’re selling something for $897 and you go to $997, that’s ten percent higher. People really aren’t going to notice that difference. If you go from $9 to $9.90, that would be 10 percent. People aren’t going to notice that. If you want to do that, number one, is if you can just price test and see if people will pay a higher price. A lot of times you’ll see that you can go up to 20 percent without changing anything about the offer and your conversions stay the same. Sometimes, not too often, but sometimes you’ll actually increase your conversions because sometimes people, if you have too much value and your price is too low, it’s actually one of those scenarios, where people are like, “That can’t be real. There must be something about this. That’s just wrong.” Eric: That’s a great point. That happens all the time because speaking in the marketing ladder a lot of times with a client I’ll do an SEO. From there, go onto the marketing and the copywriting because they need that afterwards, before or during. A lot of clients, a lot of packages, the price, they just couldn’t believe that’s what I was offering. I had a lot of skeptical people because they were coming from other companies that had ripped them off or had bad experiences with them. That’s a great point, sometimes people just don’t believe it if it sounds too good to be true. Jeremy: Yeah, people are skeptical. You kind of have to think as a consumer. Take your mind out of being a business owner. As a consumer, you have this natural sense of what a price should be. You can probably look at things and just line ten items up. You could probably get within 20 or 30 percent of that actually price, just by guessing at what the price would be. We kind of just have that internal filter of what a price should be. If you’re out of that range, people’s flags go up and they’re like, “Wait, something is not right here.” They get that gut feeling that just something is just not adding up. The conclusion they come to is, “Well, they must be lying.” Eric: Right. Jeremy: Going back to the raising perceived value. There’s a lot of different ways to do it. Number one is improve your copy. If you’re trying to do the copy yourself, hire a good copywriter, not somebody from elance or not somebody for $500 for a sales letter; unless you’re just starting and you really just don’t have money. It’s better than nothing. If you have a relatively successful business, number one, is hiring a copywriter or learning copy yourself. Then get some courses and learn how to write really good copy because, like I said, you learn to overcome objections. You learn to gain attention from people. You learn to develop interests and get them engaged in the copy to really showcase the benefits of your product or service. Number one is write better copy. Number two, is show your personality. That’s actually one thing that most people don’t really think of, but I’ve made a big, big shift in the last year, because I see a huge trend in going towards personality and transparency. If you follow my emails, you’ll see how personal I am. I’m always telling stories about my wife and my kids and stupid things that I’m doing, like last weekend I jumped into an ice pond for a polar plunge. It was for charity. I like to talk about that. One guy actually wrote back and told me I had a death wish. It was fun, talking about that stuff. It’s just me being me. You can’t be fake anymore. You have to just be whoever you are. If you’re a big flamboyant really off the wall character, and you’re really loud and obnoxious, then just be that. If you’re kind of quiet, shy and reserved, be that person. You can’t really fake it anymore with social media and all that kind of stuff. Number two is be yourself. Usually that’s done either through emails or videos. In case you’re wondering in your head, “Wait how does that increase perceived value of your product or service?” That really doesn’t increase the value of the product or service. It increases the value of you and the relationship that they have with you. It all starts with a relationship. They have to trust you if you’re selling something. If they don’t trust you, you could be giving away bars of gold for $1 and nobody is going to buy it, because they think you’re lying. That’s number two is build trust by being yourself, being personal, telling stories, and that kind of thing. Another thing you could do is add bonuses. Add whatever your product is, whatever your service, add little extras, little bonuses. If you’re selling an information product, you can have bonuses on little extra videos or how to get faster results; how to get better results with this certain technique or whatever. That’s one that probably most people know. Another thing, make it better risk reversal. Have better guarantees. You could have longer guarantees. You could have conditional guarantees, like a money back guarantee if they can prove that they went through your program or did your service or whatever and they didn’t get the results, then they can double you money back guarantee; something that takes the risk off that person and puts it on you. Another thing you can do is establish—juxtapose your product or service with somebody with an industry leader that they already trust. You can kind of borrow that credibility. For example, you have a course and you’re selling information. It really doesn’t matter. It could be a service, course, whatever it is. If you somehow involve either something in your industry or a celebrity or somebody like that and you kind of juxtapose, which essentially means you tie it into your product, then that increases the value because you get that borrowed credibility. Those are a couple ways to help increase your perceived value. The easiest way is probably better copy, I would say. Eric: Right. I agree. I always say this, but I think copy marketing and sales are the most important skills. The better the marketing, the easier the sales process and copywriting and salesmanship tie together. Jeremy: Yeah. Absolutely. Eric: Nice. One thing I want to ask you, not only to provide value for the audience, but selfishly, as well, I guess I should say. I’m coming out with a new course here. This is about product launching. Is there steps that you, personally, do when you work with clients or start off your launches on the right track? Is there something that you could do or suggest to people? Jeremy: I’ll let you take most of the credit for the product launch stuff. I don’t want to jump on your toes too much. I’ll give one recommendation that reverberates through the whole product launch sequence, and that is, proof. Proof is just everything. When I was launching the funnel formula, which is my flagship product that teaches you how to build sales funnels. When I did that launch to my own list, I didn’t do affiliates and all that kinds of stuff. That’s just too annoying for me. One of the things, I just focused on proof, proof, proof. Every single email that went out, every piece of communication that went out had some type, at least one piece of proof in it; whether it was a result that I got for a client, whether it was case study from a client, or an example of what happened when a client or me built the sales funnel or added a piece of the sales funnel. Telling them things they didn’t know, like, “Hey, in module three, there’s a really cool tip that let’s you do X.” That’s a style of proof, everywhere from there or telling about my past results. I did something that I was a little bit nervous of, but during my launch, and it really only works for selling to marketing people. I’ll give you an example of how you can use it in another niche. What I did was during my launch, I did it—I can’t even remember the dates. It might have been Monday through Friday, I forget. Throughout the week, I was telling my audience and giving them proof on how sales funnels worked, based on giving them numbers of my own sales funnel and how that launch was going. Eric: Nice, so a play-by-play of your launch. Jeremy: Exactly. I had screenshots. I said, “Hey, look, I would have made X dollars if I didn’t have this sales funnel in place.” I didn’t actually say dollars, I just did percentage. It was something like, “I made an extra,” I forgot what it turned out to be. It was something like, 33 percent of my sales were from selling the main product, and 66 percent of my sales came from the sales funnel, after they bought that first product. I said, “Look, I would have been leaving 66 percent of the money I made on the table if I didn’t have this sales funnel.” That was huge. I actually showed even more proof. I showed a screenshot from inside my office autopilot, which is my CRM, so they could see what I was talking about. One thing that you can do, let’s just go back to weight loss. That one is easy. If you’re selling a weight loss course, you can say, maybe you did a two week launch. You could say, “Somebody bought this on the first day, four days later, they’re already down eight pounds. This other person bought it and within two days, they were down five pounds.” Throughout the launch, you can talk about the results that people are getting since the launch started, results that people have done in the past. You could even do things like with scarcity, with deadlines and scarcity. Saying, “We only have 50 left and there are 20,000 people waiting on the list. They’re waiting for the cart to open. Make sure you get there as soon as I tell you it’s open, because there’s going to be 20,000 people that are going to buy this product.” You can do scarcity like that. Make sure you don’t lie. I hate when people lie in marketing. Eric: That’s a good point. My last course I did that too. It was a higher price course. What I did with the list that was on the list for that course was scarcity and social proof. I would literally list the people. I would say, “Jason from California invested today.” I listed the people’s first name and the state they were from of who invested that day during that launch process as social proof as well. I never really tested that, to be honest with you, against not doing that. When I did that, the results seemed to be more dramatic then when I did this before without doing that added factor. Jeremy: That’s one of those things that it’s a given that it’s going to do better. Hopefully, that helps with product launches. Eric: Nice. That’s beautiful. Just to clarify, I don’t know if you misunderstood. My course, it has nothing to do with product launches, but as this launched a new course or product. I know you actually worked with that, but my audience at the end, we’ll give out Jeremy’s website at the end. If you do have a product launch, you can talk to Jeremy as well. Jeremy: I thought you were having a course about product launches? Eric: No. It’s going to be a full marketing strategy, sales copy, the good stuff. Before we wrap it up today, because you shared a lot of good value and I definitely want to thank you for coming on. I know a lot of business owners and entrepreneurs listening may have a continuity service or maybe a continuity or monthly program, or maybe they’re even thinking about starting one, which could be very profitable. Can you share a tip or two before we leave today on how they can increase their retention rates? Some way to make their customers stick with them longer. Jeremy: Yeah. Let me throw out three different things. Number one is one of the things that I really love to do. Again, everything all goes back to value. As soon as they buy something, this is especially true with a continuity program, but it’s also true with any service, any product. I put people into what I call a “personal coach campaign.” Somebody buys one of my products and for the next, roughly 30 days, it depends, but roughly 30 days; they get emails specifically based on that product. The point of that is to get them to consume the product, not eat the product, you know, consume the product. Eric: Right. Jeremy: I guess it could be to eat the product, if you’re selling some kind of food. Eric: That’s awesome. That’s motivating them at the same time you’re there for them, right, supporting them? Jeremy: Yeah. There’s a couple things that it does. It establishes a relationship with them. You already have a relationship with them because they trust you enough to buy your product. A lot of people have buyer’s remorse. They’re kind of like, “Oh, God, I shouldn’t have bought it. Now I’m going to have to return this.” They think that a lot of business owners don’t care. They’re just in it for the sale. If you have a full 30 days of emails or could be a mix of emails, videos, whatever you want to do with it, the media. It really shows people that you care about them. You should care about them, regardless if it increases retention rates or anything like that. You should do this anyway because you care about your customers. The side benefit is that it increase retention rates, reduces refunds, because it establishes and builds that relationship. It all comes down to value and relationship. That’s one thing that, everything revolves around that. That’s one thing is to have a personal coach campaign. It’s just easy. They could be quick, just to say, “I really appreciate that you bought it. I want you to know that I’m here for you. I actually care about you and hope that you get the results that you’re looking for.” It’s not just like, “Hey, thanks for your money. See ya,” and you never talk to them again; which is what most people do. It’s rare that I get emails, maybe out of all the product I’ve ever bought in my entire life, I could probably count on one hand how many campaigns like that that I’ve ever gotten. You stick out like crazy, if you do that. Eric: Great. Jeremy: Number two … I’m sorry. Eric: I just said that’s great. That’s fantastic. I haven’t seen, like you said, I’ve really never seen it. I can’t think of any product or service that I’ve bought where there’s been an ongoing campaign like that. Jeremy: Yeah. For some people, it’s that they really don’t care. They just want your money. For others, they just haven’t thought about it yet. The second thing is send out some type of email. It could be anything. It could be a salesman calling them, a customer support person. It could be a postcard, letter, text message, whatever media you want to use. Essentially, do a stick letter. In direct mail, they do stick letter. That is kind of close to a personal coach campaign, but it’s just one piece, where you just thank them for the order. If there’s any membership details, you can put that in there. Just reassure them that it was a good purchase. They’re going to get value out of it. maybe add a little tip in there to help them get more value out of whatever they just bought, and then sell them another product. Eric: Absolutely. That’s a fabulous way to get your back end going. Jeremy: Yeah. The product should be, if you’re selling a supplement for, let’s just go back to weight loss again. If you’re selling something for weight loss, you can’t sell them a supplement for getting rid of toe fungus or something like that, because there’s no congruency there. Whatever it is, it has to be really congruent, and really make sense to add more value to take whatever results they’re going to get and take them to a new level. That’s the second one, send a stick letter. The third one, I just had it in my mind. The first one is the personal coach campaign. The second one is a stick letter. Third one, another thing you can do for retention rates is get people—this is kind of a mental type of thing. Get people to give you testimonials. You may not have really heard this before, I’m not sure. If you can get somebody to give you a testimonial and cement that idea in their mind that they love this product, it’s helping them. Who do you know that’s going to give somebody a testimonial and ask for a refund? Know what I mean? You can do this in your personal coaching campaign. If you do a campaign and get them to commit to doing business with you and to admit that you’re helping them and you’re doing a good job for them, they’re probably not going to ask for a refund. They’re going to stay with you longer. A fourth bonus thing that goes in with the stick letter is keep selling them additional products. Keep selling them additional services, because as they go down the rabbit hole with you, they’re going to get more attached to doing business with you. The more they spend with you, the less likely they are to ever leave you because you’re now their knight in shining armor that’s helping them fix whatever problem their trying to solve. Eric: Fantastic. Absolutely. That’s great. This has been awesome, Jeremy. I definitely want to thank you. You shared a lot of fantastic value, great value share here. I want to thank you for coming on the tenth episode here of The Fast Easy Success Marketing Insider. Before everyone goes out and dives in on all the tips and takes action on everything we talked about, can you tell the listeners where they can learn more about you, check you out? Jeremy: Two things, pretty easy. My name is Jeremy Reeves. I’ll tell you why I’m saying this in a second. You spell it J-E-R-E-M-Y R-E-E-V-E-S. The reason that I’m spelling it out is because the number one thing that I would recommend is just going on my website, www.JeremyReeves.com. On there, you can see whatever you want. I have free stuff on there. There should be a popup that comes up and gives you a free report up in the navigation bar, there’s a resources section that says “free” on it. There’s different things that you can opt-in to and get a whole bunch of free stuff, interviews and reports and videos and all kinds of stuff. The other thing is I have my own podcast. It’s called, Sales Funnel Mastery. Go into iTunes or whatever you listen to and do a search for that. You can follow me on my podcast. I do a lot of short sections, where I usually cover a single topic in five, ten, fifteen minutes, something like that. Little tidbits of strategy and stuff like that. Those are the two things, www.JeremyReeves.com for my website. If you want to look at any of the free products I have, free services or whatever is right for you, or check out Sales Funnel Mastery. That’s my podcast. Eric: Nice. I was telling Jeremy before the show, I checked out his podcast yesterday. I definitely recommend everybody check out there, and definitely his site. You get some good value. I recommend it. It’s definitely worth it. Jeremy, wow, it’s been an absolutely pleasure with you. Thank you for taking the time and sharing everything with the listeners. All you listeners out there, I hope you enjoyed the show and most importantly, take action on everything Jeremy and I talked about today. Before we go, if you guys could do me two quick favors, I’d really appreciate it. Simply hit that subscribe button, so you don’t miss out on a future business boosting podcast. If you stuck around this far, you obviously enjoyed the value share. Make sure you do those reviews and comments. I need your help in getting noticed and getting the value out to more people. I’m your host Eric Barton, a result specialist, signing out today. We’ll see you next week for another fast easy success marketing insider. Here’s to your success. It’s Jeremy back here again. I really hope you enjoyed that interview. For more information on this podcast and everything like that. A couple things, make sure that you’re subscribed to this podcast to make sure you’re getting every episode. This is the kind of stuff that I cover, everything that we went over in that interview; just really, really solid, insightful strategies for building your business. Make sure that you’re telling friends about the podcast, we can get the rankings up there and get the word out to everybody. Make sure that you’re leaving reviews and clicking the little stars; especially, in iTunes. That helps me boost the rankings and get more attention so everybody else can benefit from this. That’s pretty much it. I will see you at www.JeremyReeves.com. I really hope you enjoyed this. Thanks.

Panel Reuven Lerner (twitter github blog) Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Curtis McHale (twitter github blog) Discussion 01:18 - The Power of “NO” Getting Things Done by David Allen Instapaper Evernote Omnifocus 06:56 - Just-in-Time Learning 09:02 - Saying “NO” in Hindsight Overcommitment 11:54 - Getting Comfortable with Saying “NO” Derek Sivers: No more yes. It's either HELL YEAH! or no. Confidence Risk Level 19:14 - Having a Financial Cushion Accounting The Freelancers Show 072 - LessAccounting with Steven Bristol 23:04 - Red Flags That Mean an Instant “NO” Client Investment Slimy People The Ruby Freelancers Show 054 - Red Flags with Potential or Current Clients with Ashe Dryden Disrespectful Clients 32:31 - Irregular Clients Project Minimums Referring Clients to Other People Picks Das Keyboard (Reuven) Kalzumeus Podcast 5: Quitting Consulting Via Productization (Reuven) About the Facebook platform, from Pando Daily (Reuven) Derek Sivers: No more yes. It's either HELL YEAH! or no. (Eric) Filmic Pro (Eric) Jaybird Bluebuds (Curtis) Next Week Book Club: Getting Things Done with David Allen Transcript CURTIS: So, am I the leader since I'm recording? REUVEN: I guess so! [Laughs] CURTIS: Whoo-hoo! ERIC: Curtis, leader! [Laughter] CURTIS: That's right, you can call me "The Leader" for the whole show. [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at bluebox.net.] [You're fantastic at code, but do you have an action plan to take it to the next level? The upcoming book, Next Level Freelance, will help you optimize your freelance business for happiness. The book is packed with actionable steps to make more money, case studies, tips to find more clients, and exercises for you to establish your desired lifestyle. Extras include: 9 interviews with freelancers who make great money while enjoying great work-life balance, videos on strategies to find quality subcontractors, and videos on making more free time by outsourcing your daily tasks. Check it out today at nextlevelfreelance.com!] CURTIS: Welcome to the Freelancers' Show Episode 72! Today, we're going to talk about the "Power of No". We have, Eric Davis joining us. ERIC: Hi! CURTIS: And Reuven Lerner. I'm Curtis McHale, filling in for Chuck today because he is, I don't know, he's off, probably sitting on the beach somewhere, not doing much. Like I said, today's topic is the "Power of No". As we've been coming up to the bookclub, I've been reading the "Getting Things Done" book and I think the thing that's continually been impressed on me more and more and more is that so many of the issues are all these tasks and 9000 things that are flying at us are just the power of 'No'. I actually been used it yesterday in my Instapaper queue at 97 articles and decided, "I'm never going to read half of these, why they even put them in?" and just said 'No' to them all and dropped down to like 25 actual real articles that I will make time to read. What about you guys? Eric, have you used no or have you, I guess, not over-committed yourself? ERIC: No. CURTIS: [Laughs] Thanks! ERIC: Oh! Yeah! [Laughter] ERIC: I have to say that a lot. While you're talking, I open up my Instapaper, and god! Maybe a month ago, I actually went in there and there's a button, I've been afraid to hit it. It basically says, "Delete everything that's aloo in 30 days." I've had Instapaper stuff in there that came from tags that I had in Delicious, which were from 2005-2006 that I've -- CURTIS: I don't know there is that button. That's just on the web view? ERIC: Yeah. CURTIS: I manually deleted all mine! ERIC: Oh, yeah! Look for an "Archive All", it's on the right side. But yeah, I overcommit stuff. I've had times where I've had over a thousand items on my to-do list, and the Getting Things Done stuff, that's not really...

Panel Reuven Lerner (twitter github blog) Eric Davis (twitter github blog) Curtis McHale (twitter github blog) Discussion 01:18 - The Power of “NO” Getting Things Done by David Allen Instapaper Evernote Omnifocus 06:56 - Just-in-Time Learning 09:02 - Saying “NO” in Hindsight Overcommitment 11:54 - Getting Comfortable with Saying “NO” Derek Sivers: No more yes. It's either HELL YEAH! or no. Confidence Risk Level 19:14 - Having a Financial Cushion Accounting The Freelancers Show 072 - LessAccounting with Steven Bristol 23:04 - Red Flags That Mean an Instant “NO” Client Investment Slimy People The Ruby Freelancers Show 054 - Red Flags with Potential or Current Clients with Ashe Dryden Disrespectful Clients 32:31 - Irregular Clients Project Minimums Referring Clients to Other People Picks Das Keyboard (Reuven) Kalzumeus Podcast 5: Quitting Consulting Via Productization (Reuven) About the Facebook platform, from Pando Daily (Reuven) Derek Sivers: No more yes. It's either HELL YEAH! or no. (Eric) Filmic Pro (Eric) Jaybird Bluebuds (Curtis) Next Week Book Club: Getting Things Done with David Allen Transcript CURTIS: So, am I the leader since I'm recording? REUVEN: I guess so! [Laughs] CURTIS: Whoo-hoo! ERIC: Curtis, leader! [Laughter] CURTIS: That's right, you can call me "The Leader" for the whole show. [Hosting and bandwidth provided by the Blue Box Group. Check them out at bluebox.net.] [You're fantastic at code, but do you have an action plan to take it to the next level? The upcoming book, Next Level Freelance, will help you optimize your freelance business for happiness. The book is packed with actionable steps to make more money, case studies, tips to find more clients, and exercises for you to establish your desired lifestyle. Extras include: 9 interviews with freelancers who make great money while enjoying great work-life balance, videos on strategies to find quality subcontractors, and videos on making more free time by outsourcing your daily tasks. Check it out today at nextlevelfreelance.com!] CURTIS: Welcome to the Freelancers' Show Episode 72! Today, we're going to talk about the "Power of No". We have, Eric Davis joining us. ERIC: Hi! CURTIS: And Reuven Lerner. I'm Curtis McHale, filling in for Chuck today because he is, I don't know, he's off, probably sitting on the beach somewhere, not doing much. Like I said, today's topic is the "Power of No". As we've been coming up to the bookclub, I've been reading the "Getting Things Done" book and I think the thing that's continually been impressed on me more and more and more is that so many of the issues are all these tasks and 9000 things that are flying at us are just the power of 'No'. I actually been used it yesterday in my Instapaper queue at 97 articles and decided, "I'm never going to read half of these, why they even put them in?" and just said 'No' to them all and dropped down to like 25 actual real articles that I will make time to read. What about you guys? Eric, have you used no or have you, I guess, not over-committed yourself? ERIC: No. CURTIS: [Laughs] Thanks! ERIC: Oh! Yeah! [Laughter] ERIC: I have to say that a lot. While you're talking, I open up my Instapaper, and god! Maybe a month ago, I actually went in there and there's a button, I've been afraid to hit it. It basically says, "Delete everything that's aloo in 30 days." I've had Instapaper stuff in there that came from tags that I had in Delicious, which were from 2005-2006 that I've -- CURTIS: I don't know there is that button. That's just on the web view? ERIC: Yeah. CURTIS: I manually deleted all mine! ERIC: Oh, yeah! Look for an "Archive All", it's on the right side. But yeah, I overcommit stuff. I've had times where I've had over a thousand items on my to-do list, and the Getting Things Done stuff, that's not really...

asset title: Episode 14: The Holiday Special filename: ra_14.mp3 track number: 14/22 time: 13:14 size: 10.85 MB bitrate: 112 kbps In Episode 14, The Radio Arlecchino Holiday Special, Eric has been invited to join our commedia friends as they celebrate the season backstage before opening a new show. As they share reminiscences of holidays past --and really past-- we'll review the grammar points we've encountered so far: narrating in the past, expressing emotions and opinions, issuing commands, and using pronouns. Of course the big question is: will Antonella make it back from Rome in time for the holidays? Only one way to find out ... let's listen!Dialog: ItalianPanettone GnammagnaDottore: Ecco il vostro vecchio amico, il Dottor Balanzone, che vi ricorda che le feste sono sempre migliori quando c'è il delizioso panettone Gnammagna! È vero... Festeggiate gustando la delizia dell'incomparabile panettone Gnammagna!Dialog: EnglishDottore: Here's your old friend Dottor Balanzone, reminding you that the holidays are always better when there's delicious Gnammagna panettone! It's true ... Celebrate while enjoying the incomparable delight of Gnammagna panettone!--I'm sorry, guys, I won't explain even one of them to you. Nobody will ever be able to explain them to you.Dialog: ItalianAt the Teatro BisognosiArlecchino: Chi è che bussa? Chi è? È Babbo Natale?Eric: No, no, Sono io!Arlecchino: Ah, sei tu! E tu chi sei? La Befana?Eric: Macché Befana! Sono io! Eric!Arlecchino: Eric! E perché non lo hai detto subito?Attenti, ragazzi! Ecco il nostro presentatore radiofonico!Colombina: Eric, come stai?Eric: Bene, bene, grazie, Colombina! Ma che bel costume!Colombina: Grazie, l'ho fatto apposta per il nuovo spettacolo ...Arlecchino: Su, dammi il cappotto, vieni qui vicino al fuoco ...Eric: Ecco, grazie ...Pantalone: È un piacere rivederti! Arlecchino, portagli qualcosa da bere!Arlecchino: Subito, signore!Dottore: Gaudeamus igitur, insieme dum sumus!Eric: Grazie, Dottore, è un piacere rivederLa!Dottore: Sed -- ubi est?Eric: Vorrà dire, Dottore, dov'è ...Dottore: Ubi est pulcherrima puella Antonella? Colombina: Già, Antonella! Non è venuta con te?Pantalone: Dov'è la nostra Antonella?Eric: Ma non è ancora tornata da Roma!Dialog: EnglishArlecchino: Who's knocking? Who is it? Is it Father Christmas?Eric: No, no, it's me! It's me!Arlecchino: Ah, it's you! And who are you? The Befana?Eric: What do you mean, the Befana! It's me! Eric!Arlecchino: Eric! And why didn't you say so right away?Attention, guys! Here's our radio announcer!Colombina: Eric, how are you?Eric: Fine, fine, thanks, Colombina! What a beautiful costume!Colombina: Thanks, I made it especially for the new play ...Arlecchino: Here, give me your coat, come here near the fire ...Eric: Here, thanks ...Pantalone: It's a pleasure to see you again! Arlecchino, bring him something to drink!Arlecchino: Right away, sir!Dottore: Gaudeamus igitur, insieme dum sumus!Eric: Thank you, Dottore. It's good to see you again!Dottore: Sed -- ubi est?Eric: You mean to say, Dottore, where is ...Dottore: Ubi est pulcherrima puella Antonella? Colombina: That's right, Antonella! Didn't she come with you?Pantalone: Where is our Antonella?Eric: But she hasn't come back from Rome!Dialog: ItalianA Visit from the PostmanArlecchino: Chi è che bussa? Chi è? È Babbo Natale?il Postino: No, no, sono io! Aprite!Arlecchino: Ah, sei tu! E tu chi sei? La Befana?il Postino: Macché Befana! Sono io, il postino! Arlecchino: Ah, sei tu! E perché non lo hai detto subito? Allora c'è posta per noi?il Postino: Ehi, apri, e lo saprai!Pantalone: Apri, apri, Arlecchino!il Postino: Buona sera, buona sera, brava gente! Ecco la posta!Colombina: Oh, che sacco enorme!Dottore: Pereat tristitia! Pantalone: Grazie, signor Postino! Arlecchino, prendi quel sacco!Arlecchino: Mamma mia, quanto pesa! Vediamo cosa c'è dentro!Colombina: Cosa c'è, Arlecchino?Arlecchino: Oh, guarda, quanti biglietti!Colombina: Ce ne sono tanti!Dottore: Vivant biglietti!Pantalone: Grazie, signor Postino! Non possiamo offrirLe -- ma dov'è andato?il Postino: Eccomi qua, signore! C'è anche questo pacco!Brava gente, devo scappare. Tanti altri biglietti e pacchi da consegnare. Buone feste! Buono spettacolo!Dialog: EnglishArlecchino: Who's knocking? Who is it? Is it Father Christmas?il Postino: No, no, it's me! Open up!Arlecchino: Ah, it's you! And who are you? The Befana?il Postino: What do you mean, the Befana! It's me, the postman! Arlecchino: Ah, it's you! And why didn't you say so right away? So, there's mail for us?il Postino: Hey, open up and you'll find out!Pantalone: Open up, open up, Arlecchino!il Postino: Good evening, good evening, fine people! Here's the mail!Colombina: Oh, what an enormous sack!Dottore: Pereat tristitia! Pantalone: Thank you, Mister Postman! Arlecchino, get that sack!Arlecchino: Zounds, how heavy it is! Let's see what's inside!Colombina: What is it, Arlecchino?Arlecchino: Oh, look at all the cards!Colombina: There's so many of them!Dottore: Vivant biglietti!Pantalone: Thank you, Mister Postman! Can't we offer you -- but where has he gone?il Postino: Here I am, sir! There's this parcel as well!Fine people, I must be off. Plenty of other cards and parcels to deliver. Happy Holidays! and a Good Show!Dialog: ItalianA Happy SurprisePantalone: Questo pacco mi preoccupa un po'... Non ho ordinato niente. Colombina?Colombina: Io no, signor Pantalone.Pantalone: Dottore?Dottore: Misterius magnus mihi quantus tibi ...Pantalone: Oh, per carità ... Arlecchino?Arlecchino: Chi è che bussa? Chi è? È Babbo Natale?Ah, sei tu! E tu chi sei? La Befana?Antonella: Macché Befana! Sono io, Antonella!Arlecchino: Antonella! E perché non lo hai detto subito?Eric: Antonella, ciao! Come stai?Antonella: A dire il vero, questo non è il mio modo preferito di viaggiare .... Aiutatemi! Grazie, amici ...Eric: Ma, Antonella, come mai ...?Antonella: Ero tornata nello studio, lì mi hanno detto che eri qui ... Oh, i giri che ho fatto ...Dottore: Mirabile dictu!Pantalone: Venga, professoressa, a tavola con noi ... Brindiamo al ritorno di Antonella! Arlecchino!Arlecchino: Sì, signore!Colombina: Ecco i bicchieri!Pantalone: Arlecchina, aiuta Arlecchino con le bottiglie, spumante per tutti!Arlecchina: Sì, signor Pantalone! Arlecchino, vieni, ti do una mano ...Pantalone: Ecco, professoressa, si accomodi ...Antonella: Grazie, molto gentile... ma... mi dia per favore del tu ....Pantalone: Come no ... ecco un bicchiere per -- per te ....Arlecchina: Colombina, questo è per il Dottore...Colombina: Ecco a Lei, Dottore ...Dottore: In vino jubileus!Colombina: Eric,Eric: Grazie, Colombina!Arlecchina: Per il signor Pantalone ...Pantalone: E ora, cari amici e colleghi, brindiamo al gioioso ritorno della nostra cara amica---Antonella: Ma scusate un momento ... a proposito di cari amici ... il nostro Pulcinella--dov'è?Pantalone: Non ti preoccupare ...Colombina: Pulcinella c'è --Arlecchino: Eccome!Colombina: Il nostro spettacolo stasera comincia con una sua canzone ...Arlecchina: Non smette di fare pratica ...Arlecchino: E' un po' nervoso ....Colombina: Ma lo vedrai nello spettacolo, e senz'altro anche dopo ...Antonella: Meno male! Pantalone: Come dicevo ... ad Antonella!Everybody: Ad Antonella!Pantalone: Bentornata sia! E che non ci lasci mai più per così tanto tempo!Everybody: Cin cin!Dialog: EnglishPantalone: This package worries me a bit ... I never ordered anything. Colombina?Colombina: Not I, Mister Pantalone.Pantalone: Dottore?Dottore: Misterius magnus mihi quantus tibi ...Pantalone: Oh, for heaven's sake ... Arlecchino?Arlecchino: Who's knocking? Who is it? Is it Father Christmas?Ah, it's you! And who are you? The Befana?Antonella: What do you mean, the Befana! It's me, Antonella!Arlecchino: Antonella! And why didn't you say so right away?Eric: Antonella, hi! How are you?Antonella: To tell the truth, this is not my favorite way to travel .... Help me!Thank you, friends ...Eric: But, Antonella, how on earth ...?Antonella: I had gone back to the studio; there they told me that you were here ... Oh, the circles I've been in ...Dottore: Mirabile dictu!Pantalone: Come, professor, to the table with us .... Let's drink to Antonella's return! Arlecchino!Arlecchino: Yes, sir!Colombina: Here are the glasses!Pantalone: Arlecchina, help Arlecchino with the bottles, sparkling wine for everybody!Arlecchina: Yes, Mister Pantalone! Arlecchino, come, I'll give you a hand ...Pantalone: Here you are, professor, make yourself comfortable ...Antonella: Thank you, you're very kind ... but please, address me as 'tu' ....Pantalone: Why of course ... here's a glass for -- for you ...Arlecchina: Colombina, this is for the Dottore ...Colombina: Here you are, Dottore ...Dottore: In vino jubileus!Colombina: Eric,Eric: Thanks, Colombina!Arlecchina: for Mister Pantalone ...Pantalone: And now, dear friends and colleagues, a toast to the joyous return of our dear friend--Antonella: One moment, please... speaking of dear friends ... our Pulcinella--where is he?Pantalone: Not to worry ...Colombina: Pulcinella is here --Arlecchino: And how!Colombina: Our show tonight opens with a song of his ...Arlecchina: He won't quit practicing ...Arlecchino: He's a bit nervous ....Colombina: But you'll see him in the show, and certainly afterwards as well ...Antonella: That's good! Pantalone: As I was saying ... to Antonella!Everybody: To Antonella!Pantalone: Welcome back! And may she never leave us again for so long!Everybody: Cheers!Dialog: ItalianThe BefanaAntonella: Grazie, grazie! Ma cosa sono questi?Arlecchino: Oh, i nostri biglietti!Colombina: Ce li ha portati il postino, con il tuo pacco!Dottore: Ecce bigliettus tibi, Colombina!Colombina: Grazie, Dottore! Guarda! Qui ce n'è uno per te, Arlecchino!Arlecchina: Da chi è?Arlecchino: Vediamo ... oh! è da mio cugino Carlos ... quello che mi ha spiegato chi è la Befana ... 'Caro Arlecchino,' mi scrive ... 'ricordi come una volta volevi sapere tutto sulla Befana? e io ti raccontavo ...Carlos: Mentre i tre Re Magi andavano a Betlemme per portare i doni a Gesù Bambino, hanno visto una vecchia e hanno insistito che li seguisse per far visita al piccolo Gesù, ma la donna non ha voluto. Poco dopo, tuttavia, la vecchietta ha cambiato idea e, dopo aver preparato dei dolci per il bambino, ha cercato di raggiungere i Re Magi, ma loro erano già lontani e non ha potuto raggiungerli. Così, ancora oggi, la notte prima dell'Epifania (il 6 gennaio), la vecchietta, che si chiama la Befana, porta dei regali a tutti i bambini buoni nella speranza che uno di loro sia il Bambin Gesù. Quella notte tutti i bambini italiani vanno a dormire aspettando i regali della Befana che arriva volando su una scopa. Ma i regali arrivano solo ai bambini buoni, a quelli cattivi la Befana porta il carbone.Arlecchino: Come mi manca il mio bravo cuginoDialog: EnglishAntonella: Thank you, thank you! But what are these?Arlecchino: Oh, our cards!Colombina: The postman brought them to us, along with your package!Dottore: Ecce bigliettus tibi, Colombina!Colombina: Thank you, Dottore! Look! Here's one for you, Arlecchino!Arlecchina: Who is it from?Arlecchino: Let's see ... oh! it's from my cousin Carlos, the one who explained to me who the Befana is ... 'Dear Arlecchino' he writes ... 'do you remember how at one time you wanted to know everything about the Befana? and I told you ...Carlos: As the three kings were going to Bethlehem to take their gifts to the child Jesus, they saw an old woman and urged her to follow them to visit little Jesus, but the woman refused. Shortly thereafter, however, the little old lady changed her mind, and after preparing some sweets for the child, she tried to reach the three wise men, but they were already far away and she was unable to catch up with them. So, even today, on the night before Epiphany (the 6 January), the little old lady, called the Befana, takes gifts to all good children in the hope that one of them will be the little Jesus. On that night all Italian children go to sleep awaiting the gifts of the Befana, who arrives flying on a broomstick. But gifts come only to the good children; to the bad ones the Befana brings coal.Arlecchino: How I miss my good cousin!Dialog: ItalianThe Santa Lucia Christmas Market in BolognaPantalone: Ragazzi! Ecco un biglietto da Irene!Dottore: Irene, la mia concittadina!Pantalone: Proprio lei, Dottore! 'Caro Pantalone e Compagnia,' ci scrive, 'ricordate quel Natale che avete trascorso qui? Pulcinella andava sempre in cerca di dolci!'Irene: Santa Lucia è il mercatino di Natale dove tutti gli anni i miei genitori mi portavano a comprare qualcosa per il presepio e un pezzo di torrone o di croccante. Faceva freddo, ma passeggiavamo lentamente in mezzo a tanta gente e tutto brillava e profumava. Mi piacevano tanto le figurine per il presepio, soprattutto quelle che si muovevano, e sceglierne solo una da portare a casa era difficilissimo. Ho continuato ad andare a Santa Lucia anche da adulta; è sempre bellissimo, ma c'è un mistero: più io diventavo adulta, più il mercato diventava piccolo ... adesso sembra grandissimo solo alle mie bambine!Pantalone: Ah, quelle bambine oramai non saranno più tanto piccole neanche loro!Dottore: le mie figliocce ...Arlecchina: oh, non pianga, Dottore -- ecco un biglietto per Lei!Dialog: EnglishPantalone: Fellows! Here is a card from Irene!Dottore: Irene, my countrywoman!Pantalone: The very one, Dottore! 'Dear Pantalone and Company,' she writes, 'remember the Christmas that you spent here? Pulcinella was always off looking for sweets!'Irene: Santa Lucia is Bologna's Christmas market where my parents took me every year to buy something for the Nativity scene and a piece of nougat candy or hazelnut brittle. It was cold, but we would stroll slowly among all those people and everything was bright and smelled good. I loved the Nativity figures, especially the ones that moved, and to pick only one of them to take home was very hard. I kept going to Santa Lucia even as an adult; it's still quite beautiful, but there's one mystery: the older I've become, the smaller the market has gotten ... now it seems enormous only to my little girls!Pantalone: Ah, not even those little girls will be so very little by now!Dottore: My god-daughters ...Arlecchina: Oh, don't cry, Dottore -- here's a card for you!Dialog: ItalianLucky New Year TreatsDottore: Sì? Oh! Non creditur!Colombina: Da chi è, Dottore?Dottore: Una mia ex-studentessa! Sheilah! Quanto le piacevano le feste di Capodanno ... Sentite:Sheilah: Mi ricordo bene un Capodanno con una famiglia del Piemonte ...Per pranzo abbiamo mangiato lo zampone con lenticchie che la mamma aveva cucinato tutta la mattina (le lenticchie portano fortuna) e tante verdure fritte con una pastella leggerissima; per dolce, naturalmente, c'era il panettone. Abbiamo brindato con lo spumante. Fuori nevicava e faceva freddo, ma noi stavamo bene in casa insieme. L'anno prossimo vorrei tanto che anche mia madre cucinasse le lenticchie per Capodanno! Arlecchino: Tutto questo parlare di lenticchie e panettone! Mi fa venire una fame da ... da ...Arlecchina: Da Pulcinella?Arlecchino: Proprio così!Pantalone: Allora gradirai un po' di questo squisito pandoro di Verona che mi hanno regalato i miei nipoti!Dialog: EnglishDottore: Yes? Oh! Non creditur!Colombina: Who is it from, Dottore?Dottore: A former student of mine! Sheilah! How she loved the New Year's holiday! Listen:Sheilah: I remember well a New Year's spent with a Piedmontese family ...For lunch we ate a stuffed pig's foot with lentils that the mother had cooked all morning (lentils bring good luck) and so many vegetables fried in a really light batter; for dessert, of course, there was a panettone. We toasted with sparkling wine. Outside it was snowing and cold, but we were comfy together inside. Next year I'd really like for my mother to cook lentils for New Year's too!Arlecchino: All this talk of lentils and panettone! It's making me hungry as ... as ...Arlecchina: As Pulcinella?Arlecchino: That's it exactly!Pantalone: Then you will enjoy a bit of this exquisite Veronese pandoro that my nephews gave me!