Podcast appearances and mentions of mark today

In today's episode of the IC-DISC show, I chat with Mark Wade, founder and president of Echelon Virtual Family Office. Mark shares insights into virtual family office services, tailored for those with substantial wealth not needing a standalone family office. We also discuss premium-financed life insurance structures and how they serve individuals with several million dollars in assets. Mark outlines the origins of virtual family offices, tracing back to the Rockefellers. We learn they now cater to those with $10 million or more in assets. Additionally, Mark describes optimizing value when selling a business through pre-sale coordination, marketing strategy, and deploying post-liquidity event assets. We conclude by examining indexed universal life insurance advantages and investing in index funds, real estate, and small businesses. Overall, this informative episode underscores wealth management options and leveraging life insurance through Mark's insights   SHOW HIGHLIGHTS In this episode I chat with Mark Wade, the founder and president of Echelon Virtual Family Office, How He provides services to wealthy individuals who need family office services but do not justify having a standalone family office. Mark elaborates on the concept of a virtual family office, highlighting that it originated with the Rockefellers. He explains that these services are typically available to those with a net worth of $10 million or more. We discuss the process of leveraging life insurance through premium financing, with Mark emphasizing that the coordination of various financial professionals and providers is key to unlocking a business's value. Mark and I delve into the process of pre-sale value creation, marketing to potential buyers, and the deployment of assets after a liquidity event. We explore the struggle of successful business owners in transitioning from their roles after a liquidity event, and the satisfaction derived from making a difference in people's lives. We discuss the concept of premium financed life insurance and how Etch-A-Lan uses it strategically. Mark describes the process of bank financing with collateral and contribution, explaining how clients can sign a personal loan and provide collateral. We discuss how despite a higher interest rate environment, the strategy of bank financing remains potent due to policy flexibility. Mark and I examine the benefits of indexed universal life insurance and the advantages of investing in index funds, rental real estate, and small business ownership. Finally, we celebrate the power of self-confidence and the wisdom gleaned from financial experiences. LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About Echelon Wealth Strategies GUEST Mark WadeAbout Mark TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) David: Hi, this is David Spray, and welcome to another episode of the ICDisc Show. My guest today is Mark Wade, the president and founder of Etch-A-Lan Virtual Family Office. They work with families who have a need for family office services but whose net worth does not justify having a standalone family office, so they serve these families and add a lot of value. We had a great interview talking about some of the things they do to add value, and then we also talked about an interesting structure that they are familiar with around leveraging life insurance through premium financing in what he describes as a quote modern structure. I have some familiarity with premium finance life insurance but Mark's approach is really interesting. We also talked about things he wish he had known when he was younger and advice he would have given himself. So this is a great episode for really anybody who has accumulated several million dollars of wealth or more who's interested in learning more about the options available to them to manage their wealth. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did. Good morning, mark. Welcome to the podcast. Good morning. How are you today? I am great. So where are you calling in from today? What part of the world are you in? Mark: Today we're calling in from sunny Venice, florida, on the Gulf Coast. David: Venice. Okay, what's the nearest large city that Venice is near or larger? Mark:20 miles south of Sarasota Okay. David: Excellent. I love that. That's the largest city. I love that part of Florida. So I'm kind of a sequential learner. I like to kind of start in the beginning. Are you a native Floridian or are you from somewhere else? Mark: I was born and raised in Newark, new Jersey, and lived my childhood in New Jersey and, as I, when I graduated college. Since then I've been all over the country, coast to coast. I've spent part of my corporate career, my earlier corporate career, west of the Mississippi, headquartered out of Florida where, I'm sorry, out of California, where I ran west of Mississippi for one of the major brokerage firms, and then, when I went independent in 1999, relocated back to the East Coast again. So I'm currently a Florida resident. David: Awesome. Yeah, so I'm a Texan and it's like Texas and Florida seem to be like kindred spirits. You know the similar philosophies on a lot of things, and with a fair amount of Gulf Coast Beach front. That's right. So talk to me about echelon virtual family office. What's the history? What made you start it? Who are you set up to serve? Tell me the story. Mark: Yeah, great. So echelon virtual family office really started in 19 as a state and succession planning firm. Okay, business owners have been our focus for many years, though we do serve some at this point quite a few C level corporate executives, upper level corporate executives and retirees from both the business world and the corporate world. So echelon virtual family office is an evolution of that original practice. And you know, as a virtual family office, most people have heard of the Rockefellers and they've heard of the Vanderbilt's and you know the Rockefellers got it right and unfortunately, the Vanderbilt's didn't, and they meaning the Rockefellers really came up with the concept of a virtual family office. You want me to just give a brief run down to what a family office does. Yeah, please do that for those that might not have heard of it or not that familiar with it. So the Rockefellers figured out years ago that instead of sourcing a variety of outside professionals, instead of going to outside attorneys and accountants and real estate people and mortgage people and bankers and so on and so forth, you know, john Rockefeller figured out that he could just go ahead and hire all those people inside, because he created enough wealth in order to do that. Nowadays, by the way to create your own family office. It makes sense when you have about 250 million dollars of net worth, okay, so below that, a family might employ the services of a multi-family office, which is where a variety of people, a multitude of people, who typically have about 50 million and larger, would use the same services of a family office. That is a for-profit family office. So some of the people from the private family office one day said, well, we could do this and earn a living at it as a standalone company. So they created a multi-family office and for the last 10 years, myself and a mastermind group that I belong to there's about 220 of us now we started working on this concept of bringing family office services. So it's really all of those core services that everybody knows accounting, legal real estate, banking, mortgage, investment, so on and so forth. Everyone's familiar with those. But some of the more esoteric ones are some of the more more specialized ones, like personal security, trademark law, international banking. So some of the more sophisticated family services not end to include some of the tax driven ones, but you know specific types of tax strategy. You know we are able now to source those on behalf of our clients and provide a network of national experts that are part of our virtual family office and bring those down to clients. We say typically a business owner or or a retired executive or an existing corporate. We are able to bring that down to where it really starts to make sense for individuals at about the $10 million level. Okay, we figure at about a $10 million level we can really start driving some what we call true and meaningful value to the bottom line. We can start making a huge difference for those families in a variety of different ways and to provide some economies of scale to it, because you know when they're, when these specialists are part of our virtual family office, they're used to deal flow from us and so they give our clients some consideration. So that's the idea from 250 million to 50. Okay, pretty much the same types of services that were offered to the people that 250. David: Okay, no, thank you for that. That makes sense, and so it sounds like you just identified a need in the market in that 10 to $50 million network range where the this virtual family office made more sense for people there who was more attractive than a multifamily office structure. Is that about right? Mark: Yeah, clearly, once, once you. So I should tell you we have clients today that are 5 million because they have specific needs that we can address expeditiously and cost effectively. So we have clients that are smaller than 10 million. Typically your clients are 10 million net worth and larger and we have them all the way up to 165 million. So but you kind of write the way you described it we're able to bring under a family or an individual with with less than 50 million. We're able to bring them those family office services that only you know the private family offices used to be able to source in the past. David: Okay, so I love stories, so could you give us, like, think of the and obviously you don't need to share the name of a client, but, you know, think of a client where your service really a difference. Can you just one come to mind? You can kind of give a little bit of the background, what their pain point was, how you were able to make a substantial improvement in their situation. Mark: Yeah, so you know, but you know so it's relevant to a wider swath of people, instead of talking about the exceptional ones I won't do that I'm going to talk about. I'm going to talk about what we commonly see. Okay, that sounds good Because it may be more relevant to, like I said, to water swath of people, and so I cannot remember the last time we had somebody show up if they have ever shown up and they have had all their financial work done, all their legal work done, coordinate and I'm talking about their personal and have coordinated that successfully with their business or corporate world, because it's the marriage of the personal and business, financial and legal affairs. That's where the real, that's where the real magic happens, right, okay? And when you think about it, when was the last time, dave, when was the last time somebody sat down and said to you, dave, I just exited a meeting with my accountant and my attorney and my banker and my pension plan manager and our insurance specialist and we just sat down and talk for hours about me. It just doesn't happen. And so it's the coordination and the direction of all that effort from those various providers that's what drives, I like we say, the true and meaningful value for our clients. So I'm going to you know, I'm going to say that in the areas of wanting to unlock the value, I'm going to say that for a, if they're a business owner wanting to unlock the value, the equity they've created in their firm, whether it's for further investment, for personal investment or because they're looking to succeed, they're looking to transfer the ownership, they're looking to take a strategic sale to an outside buyer, whether it's a internal sale to employees or a succession to family members. You know there's a tremendous amount of value that's derived from that process. Okay, so I'm going to say that in the pre sale, value creation and unlocking that value, and then to the in the process, marketing of an entity to the alright. So now I've collected this. Let's just put a number on a 1020 million dollars or whatever the number is. I've gotten my liquidity event. Now what do I do? And it's not just, it's not just the deployment of the assets, it's really now, what do I do? I mean, I can't play golf every day. I can't go around the world vacation all year long every year. What do I do? It's the next step is what's their next, what's the next project for them, because oftentimes that's what it is. Successful business owners find it extremely difficult to just turn off the computer and walk away. David: Sure sure, of course, of course. Okay, well, thank you. Well, that is helpful. What? What do you find the most satisfying about you all with the company? Mark: That's a great question, Wow. Well, you know, Dave, this is the only thing I've done for 44 years. Over 44 years. I've only ever done what I do today. Okay, and as a lot of your associates probably are able to say, we don't do this anymore because we have to do it for the money. We do it for a lot of other reasons too, and part of which is it's kind of in our being and who we are and it's how we self fulfill, right, and a lot of the drive behind doing what I do today is making a difference. That sounds kind of corny, but it really does. After 44 years of doing tax strategy and financial advising and business exit strategy and retirement planning and all the different planning subspecialties that fall into that. We don't do it just for the money, Don't get me wrong. It's nice to be paid well, but it's the impact that we have and the lives that we affect, oftentimes for people we will never meet, because they're people in the future. They're the heirs of people that we'll never meet and lots of times it's the heirs of the clients. They'll never meet them either. So knowing that we have had that kind of impact that's, an intergenerational impact is 100%. What does it for me nowadays? And it's solving oftentimes these complex and comprehensive problems that you really have to have a lot of time in the barrel and a lot of experience and a really deep bench of people to rely on. Those complex and uncomplicated problems oftentimes are the ones that make or break a family's future. So helping to walk clients through that process it's painting a renaissance picture from the standpoint of you have an idea what it's going to end like. You have an idea of where you're going. But the interrelational family dynamics take you left and right and sometimes it backs you up and sometimes it moves you forward. But going through that process it's so rewarding to see the impact you've had on a family. And oftentimes it's problems that some families don't deal with and oftentimes it's issues that a lot of families deal with. Sometimes it's we have to deal with substance abuse issues and helping our clients get the right help there. I mean we've had opportunities where well, just recently this Afghan war, the withdrawal out of Afghanistan we had a corporate client where we shipped a couple million dollars overseas and a couple of talented and rough guys parachuted into Afghanistan to pick up this guy's daughter who was doing a medical mission for the local population somewhere in the hills and this whole thing kind of exploded quicker than they can expect and a couple of guys wanting to rescue this woman from Afghanistan. Right down to helping our clients prepare their children to accept this kind of responsibility themselves in the future. Wealth comes with its own issues. Many of our clients are self-made people. Many of our clients created their wealth or increased family wealth, and so now how do you prepare your children and grandchildren to carry that on? So there's just a variety of things that we get involved with by introducing our clients to the appropriate specialists in those areas. Like I said, we have over 60 in our network now. David: Okay, well, thank you for that color. I'd like to drill down into a subject that I know a little bit about, but your firm seems to have a little different approach to that. I would just like to talk about that's premium financed life insurance. So can you start by, for listeners that aren't familiar with it, what it is and kind of what the purpose of it is, and then kind of get into the strategy that you all take. That's maybe a little different than some others. Mark: Yeah. So you know, people think about life insurance and they say, oh, I don't like life insurance or I don't believe in life insurance. And we get it because, let's face it, the only people that really want to want life insurance are oftentimes the ones who can't have it. Right. Right, they find themselves in a position and they say, oh man, I really should have life insurance because this is a problem. Now, for whatever their reason health or otherwise they don't qualify for it anymore. But in all other cases that I can think of, you know, life insurance is just a tool. Right, it's just another tool. Keeps on mark what's the good life insurance versus the bad life insurance? And we say, well, oftentimes it's not a matter of what's good life insurance or bad life insurance, it's policy. Design is oftentimes a critical factor, but more often than not, if we just say life insurance is a tool, you know it comes down to the mechanic Okay, Okay, do you use the life insurance in the proper way or what it was intended, and do you design the policy correctly, meaning the agent and the tax specialist. Do you design the policy correctly? Do you own it correctly? Do you fund it correctly? And then, later on, do you access the money correctly. So let's go back to that third one, the funding element. If I know that it's a tool and life insurance does many things, it's kind of like a Swiss army knife. What do we need for it to do today? Well, today we need a death benefit or, you know, maybe we're going to need it for a. You know? You know, some of the largest owners of life insurance are their Fortune 500 companies and banking institutions. You know banking institutions and Fortune 500 companies. They own this stuff because it's part of what they call their tier one capital. And in the banking world, the bank's tier one capital is that money that has to be the safest and the most protected. And so what do banks use for that? Oftentimes they use life insurance. They use, boldly, bank owned life insurance. Okay, in the corporate world, they use Koli corporate owned life insurance. So if we know that it's just a tool and we know that how you pay for it is very important and it circles back to your premium financing, you know what are the ways you can do it? You can pay for your life insurance out of assets, you can pay for your life insurance through a corporation and those where that's applicable and that becomes less and less effective nowadays, but nevertheless, there were still great opportunities to do that, or you can have somebody else make the premium payments for you, and that's where premium finance, life insurance, comes in, and oftentimes it involves it involves having arrangement with a banking institution, and the banks love this because, from their perspective, financing your life insurance policy is a guaranteed investment. Yeah, and it's where the obvious reason why none of us is leaving here without passing away Right, you know, at some point we're all going to pass away, so it's a guaranteed investment for them. So banks are typically very interested in financing these life insurance policies. Banks have gotten significantly intelligent. They look for certain types of policies that do certain things with the right provisions and the right protections for them and own the proper way. So premium finance there's a lot of different types of premium finance out there and there have been different scenarios for years. They come and go as the markets shift and the wind shift, along with interest rates and so forth. But one of these purposes that we see life insurance our clients really warming up to the concept of premium finance nowadays is in the wealth creation process. So we know life insurance provides a death benefit, and oftentimes you can get the bank to provide financing so you can buy more death benefit than you might be able to or might want to pay for, or on your own. Sure, but another more popular way nowadays well, maybe equally popular, but certainly has risen in popularity is in the wealth creation process, whereby you can have a bank, add additional premium dollars to your premium dollars and those monies accumulate inside that policy for you on a tax deferred basis. Right, because insurance companies they get treated especially from all other corporations in the world, so that money multiplies inside the policy for the benefit of the owner and eventually the beneficiaries at some day. But as those policy values grow and grow, because part of it's your money and a much larger part is the bank's money in there, you get to earn money on the bank's money and it's really an arbitrage between interest rates, right, it's how much is the bank charging me to borrow the money versus how much can I earn on that money. And so we've been, you know we've been really fortunate. You know, over the last two decades I have tremendous positive arbitrage on the on those premium dollars and our clients have enjoyed tremendous policy cash value increase, which then they have been able to borrow on the back end, which is one of the preferred ways to do it to borrow your own money out and pay yourself back, right, right so. So the various flavors of being able to borrow that money. Some financing scenarios where you sign a personal loan at the bank and you provide collateral and the bank can call you at any time and say, hey, you need to increase that collateral because markets have moved against you and we need more money to shore up our policy, cash value. And then there are those type of policies out there Now the newer designs. The financing scenario says hey, for the first five years you put up half and we'll put up half, so let's use a $50,000 premium. So for the first five years, david, you put up $25,000 a year and we, the bank, will put up $25,000 a year and at the end of five years your commitment is done. You don't have to put any more money into this policy. But for the next five years so from years six to 10, we'll put in the $50,000 on your behalf. We'll add that additional premium dollars on your behalf. So it works out typically between where the bank puts in about just approximate numbers. It depends on age and health. Well, the bank might put in 70% of the premium dollars, you might put in 30. And then at the end of 15 years, so a five year period, a five year. So the first five year period you share in depositing premiums. The second five years the bank puts in the premium dollars, and then the third five years that money just sits there and marinate and percolates and hopefully continues to grow like it has over the last couple of decades. And then at the end of 15 years the bank will say, okay, we're going to take our premium dollars back now with the interest that has accrued. You get everything else left in the policy. So that is an extremely popular scenario that has worked incredibly well for our clients and it's amazing the wealth that can be accumulated inside these policies to access later on, either through withdrawal while the client's alive or typically what's more effective is a policy loan while the client's alive, a loan that the client presumably will never pay back, and when the client passes away it just comes out of the death benefit. So here's the beauty. The beauty is these more, these newer, more effective designs. The client signs no loan for the bank's premium contribution. The client puts up no collateral for the bank's premium contribution. The policy itself is all the bank needs, and the way of collateral Got you. The bank has what's called a collateral assignment against it. Well, it's all sees, all yours. David: Yep, and then so would this be like a 10 pay policy, like there's contractually 10 years of payments. Is that typically what it is, or is that payment duration dependent on market forces? What's? Mark:the tip that 10 year structure is the typical structure. The only reason why it would be different is if the client wanted it to be different. Really couldn't be shorter. David: Because of the modified endowment contract. Mark: Yeah, well said, you can only get so much cash into those things in a short period of time. So that's the whole. Yes, to front load the deposits as quickly as you can. Well, not violating any tax code. Tamar defer, so yeah, so that's exactly right. So it must be 10 years. You could fund it in five years, but then you wouldn't get the other five years of the bank's contribution Exactly Right and you'd likely hit the Mech parameters if you just funded it for five years, right? It's possible. Yeah, it depends on depending on health and age. Yeah, and because these policies are flexible, you can always adjust the death benefit to make it work. Yeah, but the real magic there is in the bank's share of contribution to that policy. Yeah, five years you share. You put money in. The bank puts money in the second five years only. The bank puts money in the third five years. It just continues to grow and at the end of 15 years the bank takes their money out and it's all yours. There's sums that have been accumulated in these policies has been astronomical, really. It's a very effective way to do it without having to commit you know collateral or sign a bank loan. Yeah, the bank uses the policy as the entire collateral required. David: Yeah, no, it's really an interesting approach. You'd mentioned how effective that had been the last 20 years because of that positive arbitrage between interest rates and earnings. So what are the thinking? How's that? Mark: going to change. David: Now that we're in a higher interest rate environment and, at least for the time being, a lower earnings environment, it seems like that arbitrage has flipped the other way. How does that still work then, in that scenario? Mark: Well, here's what we know. We know that some of the smartest people out there in the finance world work for insurance companies and banks. Right, these people? They don't lose money. Insurance companies don't lose money typically, at least not in the life insurance business and to my knowledge, no banks have ever lost money financing any of these policies. So really, that just leaves the policy, the holder, right, the person who's going to benefit from the actual policy itself and their heirs. And I can tell you this the insurance companies they don't underwrite things that are not going to work and the banks will not invest their capital in things that are not going to work. Yes, interest rates have risen precipitously and nobody knows in the near term what will happen, because it's everything's a speculation. Today, you know, the expectation is maybe they're going to bump rates up one or two more times before they start reversing course and hopefully by the end of 2024, they see rates coming down. But it's all speculation, it's all just what we hear from the experts. But long term, I can tell you, over rolling 10 year periods still, what's one of the safest, what's one of the most consistent places that you can have capital. You know great dividend paying stocks. You know the wonderful corporations of America. You're the small business owner who is competent, effective and willing to assume some risk of owning his own business has always been a tremendous way to do it. Rental, real estate, you know, other than those three things, what do you really have? So you have to deploy capital somewhere and, that being the case, having and, by the way, the type of policies that have proven to be most effective or effective today in this area. You know these indexed universal life policies. The underlying investments are tied to an investment index. Most typical ones are the S&P 500 and NASDAQ. You know, even in times of tremendous pressure on these markets, every academic will tell you and everybody who's in the securities business will say, it's just hard to beat the long term returns on America's best companies. They continue to grow for a reason. David: Yeah, well, that's why I think it was Warren Buffett that advised his heirs to just put all the money in index funds, because when you look at the cost and performance, and yeah I mean, it turns out that it's really hard to beat the market over a long period of time. Mark: We did have that thing called the lost decade. You know, just look at where we are today from then. Yeah, look at where the market sits today from where it was in 2008 and 2009. It's just staggering, right. So these type of policies, it's like it's a great marriage because you can participate in the upward climb of the underlying markets, of the S&P 500 or NASDAQ or whatever next, or in these particular policies. You can participate in that, but you don't participate in the loss, and by that I mean the effect of the market can only be positive on your policy. These policies are protected against a loss due to a market value adjustment, due to a down market. Your policy, your policies, are going to earn zero or some positive return and you're not going to lose money because the market went down. Right, hold out a negative market value adjustment, a downward market, a guarantee against a negative market value adjustment and B just to re-go, there's our video back and B. They know you're going to pass away at some point and the worst case scenario is they're going to collect when you pass away. Yeah, if you die in less than 15 years, they'll collect. That's correct. That's correct. So it's a win for the banks and, of course, the insurance companies always make money, sure. So the downside when we look at this is what else would we do with our money? The opportunity costs, yeah. What else would we do with our money if we didn't have it invested into America's greatest companies, if we didn't invest in our own business and our own abilities, or an investment in real estate? And if you remember, in 2008 and 2009, the stock market and real estate plummeted at the same time. Right, it was the first time what we call the uncoupling of those assets. Typically, real estate goes up and the market goes down. Market goes up, real estate Typically, there's some, there's their link in some way shape. Well, this time they were linked. All right, they both went down dramatically. David: Yeah, okay. So I can't believe how the time has flown by. I've got just a couple more questions before we wrap up. What do you wish you knew when you were 25? Wow, I wish. Or if you could go back and here's the way I meant to phrase it If you could go back in time and give advice to your 25 year old self, knowing what you know now what advice? And that you give yourself Confidence. Mark: Okay, what do you mean? Knowledge? Well, have confidence in yourself. Okay, have confidence. Have confidence in your ability to learn. Always learn, continue to learn and expand your mind. Don't draw yourself into this cone of specificity. This world has changed so many times. Have the confidence to be flexible. Have the confidence to step out and do different things. Expand your knowledge. And then the other thing is you oftentimes don't know what you don't know right, and sometimes it only comes with experience and the wisdom comes from the experience that you've been. You know those experiences that you've endured along the way. Don't let that deter you. Dick Vitale has a great new book out called Never Give Up. Yeah, it's kind of. It's kind of his story about persevering. I'm fortunate enough to be in that book. Oh, you are. I have one of the chapters in that book. I co-authored one of the chapters along with Dick Vitale, so it's it's. It's a little bit about my story of never giving up. So have the confidence. I didn't know that I'd be able to do all the things I can do today when I was 20 or 25 years old. Okay. David: Just don't know. Sure, no, that's great. I love it. Well, as we wrap up, is there anything that I didn't ask you, that you wish I had asked you? Mark: Well, I think we covered a couple of extremely important topics. You know, we do have three other entities in addition to Echelon Virtual Family Office, echelon Asset Protection, echelon Resource Teams. So there are a couple other companies that we could talk about at another time, if your audience is interested. David: Okay, well, that sounds great. Well, mark, I really appreciate you taking time out this morning to talk to me. I really love your story. I love the advice you give to yourself. I really enjoyed learning more about this more modern structure of premium finance, where there's maybe not quite as much leverage upside, but there's a lot less downside for the participant in terms of no personal guarantee and no collateral posting required. So thank you for that insight and just for your time and your enthusiasm for what you do. So thank you. Mark: David, thanks so much. It's been a pleasure being your guest today and I wish you well in your podcast, continued success. Thanks, mark. Special Guest: Mark Wade.

Grab your Bibles and join us as we continue our study of the Gospel of Mark Today we take a look at Mark 2:6-11. This study is led by Jiim Murrell. 

In Episode 99 we celebrate grandparents, there's plenty of shitdaddery, wins, bins and some unmissable fatherhood yarns! LIKE, RATE, SHARE and all that jazz, just spread the sh*tdaddery because we're all in the same boat when it comes to fatherhood!  Episode Sponsor - Better Accounting Hendra, hit them up this tax time and find yourself a few extra sheckles to spend on EOFY sales! Phone: (07) 3265 4277 and book in with Mark TODAY! Blac Property Group are at it again, check out their latest hilarious videos and listings on Instagram, or blacpg.com.au. 

In Episode 98 Dave's back and we dissect travelling with kids! Tune in for experiences, hacks and travellling dad essentials! We introduce the Fatherhood FIVE and plenty of shitdaddery, wins, bins and some unmissable fatherhood yarns! LIKE, RATE, SHARE and all that jazz, just spread the sh*tdaddery because we're all in the same boat when it comes to fatherhood!  Episode Sponsor - Better Accounting Hendra, hit them up this tax time and find yourself a few extra sheckles to spend on EOFY sales! Phone: (07) 3265 4277 and book in with Mark TODAY! Blac Property Group are at it again, check out their latest hilarious videos and listings on Instagram, or blacpg.com.au. 

Listen to the full episode on your favorite streaming platform: https://bit.ly/available-on-all-platforms

In Episode 97 we're without Dave, yet another victim of the man flu! Nick & Cam talk through entitled parents, growing veggies with the kids in our favourite new segment 'Let it Grow' and a couple of cracker sh*t dad stories! Get around your favourite dads as they get close to their Centurian episode! There's plenty of shitdaddery, wins, bins and some unmissable fatherhood yarns! LIKE, RATE, SHARE and all that jazz, just spread the sh*tdaddery because we're all in the same boat when it comes to fatherhood!  Episode Sponsor - Better Accounting Hendra, hit them up this tax time and find yourself a few extra sheckles to spend on EOFY sales! Phone: (07) 3265 4277 and book in with Mark TODAY! Blac Property Group are at it again, check out their latest hilarious videos and listings on Instagram, or blacpg.com.au. 

In Episode 96 we get across feeding the family on a budget, daddy dinner hacks, and some background on the mighty mullet! Listen to the end to hear our 'same game multi' for origin 3 on Wednesday night and dont forget to put the 100th episode celebration at Aether Brewing in your diary for the 5th August! There's plenty of shitdaddery, wins, bins and some unmissable fatherhood yarns! LIKE, RATE, SHARE and all that jazz, just spread the sh*tdaddery because we're all in the same boat when it comes to fatherhood!  Episode Sponsor - Better Accounting Hendra, hit them up this tax time and find yourself a few extra sheckles to spend on EOFY sales! Phone: (07) 3265 4277 and book in with Mark TODAY! Blac Property Group are at it again, check out their latest hilarious videos and listings on Instagram, or blacpg.com.au. 

In Episode 95 we get across asking google for fatherhood advice or the helpfulness of chatDAD instead, get into some NAIDOC week trivia and the importance of the week itself. We also introduce 'Benny's Fatherhood Bizarre' for a belter of a Dad hack. There's plenty of shitdaddery, wins, bins and some unmissable fatherhood yarns! LIKE, RATE, SHARE and all that jazz, just spread the sh*tdaddery because we're all in the same boat when it comes to fatherhood!  Episode Sponsor - Better Accounting Hendra, hit them up this tax time and find yourself a few extra sheckles to spend on EOFY sales! Phone: (07) 3265 4277 and book in with Mark TODAY! Blac Property Group are at it again, check out their latest hilarious videos and listings on Instagram, or blacpg.com.au. 

Book mentioned: “Digital Minimalism: Choosing a Focused Life in a Noisy World” by Cal Newport - https://calnewport.com/writing/   https://theAPSociety.org/AWW2023/   Remember, we welcome comments, questions, and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com. S4E16 TRANSCRIPT: ----more----   Mark: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-Based -Paganism. I'm your host, mark. Yucca: and I'm Yucca. Mark: Today we're going to talk about bringing the natural world that's outside where we live. More into integration with the natural world that's inside where we live. Having more of a sense of connectedness between the two of those and kind of a, an approach to worldview that helps to feed us and help us to be happier. Yucca: Right, so really talking about cultivating our environment. Environments, both on an external level and on that emotional internal level as well. Mark: Right. Yucca: Yeah. So I think this is a really fun one, especially as we're getting more into spring and into this warmer kind of time of the year. But yeah, let's, let's go ahead and get into this idea of kind of, Bringing that in, or as you were saying before, kind of blurring the lines between the outside and inside. Mark: Sure, and I really agree with you. I think that springtime is a great time to talk about this because. There's so much that's really beautiful that's happening in the world right now in the, in the spring season in the Northern Hemisphere, and a lot of how much we're going to get out of that depends on our mindset, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: and it depends on what kind of habits we've developed for ourselves. We were talking before we started recording about how the, the human sensorium is geared to look for problems. Because problems threaten us. Right? And so solving problems becomes a way that you keep yourself from getting eaten, Yucca: Right. The person who didn't worry about that, Those weird noises that they heard around the campfire got eaten and then didn't have babies. So those people aren't our ancestors. The ones who were anxious and worried are our ancestors, right? Mark: Exactly. So we're already swimming against the current a little bit when we decide that we want to cultivate a worldview that actually reaches out for what makes us happy, for what brings us awe and wonder and contentment, and a sense of hope and aspiration, all those kinds of things. So we're gonna be talking about all that stuff today. But to begin with, there's this nature in nature outfit, Yucca: Right. Mark: and if you're anything like me and all the pagans, I know you've got rocks and sticks and plants and dried flowers and just all kinds of stuff, seashells and. Fossils and just all kinds of things from the natural world inside your house because those things bring you joy. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Yes. A lot of those things end up in our pockets and you know, first they end up in the laundry pile and then it all has to come out of the laundry, and then it gets arranged around the house and, and all of that. And I think that's, it's about what are we paying attention to? Right. Because those things are everywhere, the beautiful, I mean, next time you're sitting next to some gravel for a while, right? Gravel seems like it might be boring, but if you are sitting there because you're waiting for a bus to come or whatever it is, just start looking at each of those individual rocks. And just the way that the light is shining off of each of them and thinking about the history of how that rock formed, how many millions of years ago, and how it's been tumbled and all, what has happened to it. And I think that the, the collecting of those things is a reflection of the interest that we have in them and the interest that we have in the world around us. Mark: Right. Right. And that kind of curiosity, which of course is one of the Ethiopia Pagan principles, that kind of interest in the world is part of what engages us with the world, gives us a sense of being connected to the larger whole. Gives us a sense of valuation of. Of all that is right. So, yeah, when you're looking at that gravel, I mean, you'll, you'll see there are stones of different colors and obviously very different derivations all there kind of mixed together in that gravel. And each one of those has a geological story. You know, it's, it's got a chemical story. You know, the reason that they are particular colors is because they're made up of particular chemicals and. Being curious about those things and. To be, to be completely honest, you don't need to have a deep background in geology or in chemistry in order to appreciate this, to understand that, that in the earth, these rocks were formed. And then tumbled in the, the process of erosion, usually by water, but sometimes also by air. In order to form those little beads of gravel that you have before you. And when you have that revelation Sometimes what will happen is the, the, the ground will drop out from underneath you metaphorically, and you'll find yourself falling into this sense of amazement about the whole nature of deep time and the fact that we're here and the fact that we're a part of this wondrous, amazing hole that is planet Earth. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: And you'll probably take the rock with you. Yucca: Yes. Now if you don't, right, if you are practicing some form of very strict minimalism or anything like that, no judgment, Mark: That's fine. Yucca: fine. Mark: It makes you happy Yucca: Yeah. Mark: that, you know, we, we as, as we keep saying in naturalistic paganism, in atheopagan, there is no. Cosmic task master that wants you to do things a particular way, there is no Pope who's going to lay down the rules for you. It's about developing a practice and a perspective and a set of personal habits that feed you on a spiritual and emotional level so that you can be a happier and more contented and more effective person, and you can experience more joy out of your life. Yucca: Right. Mark: That's the deal. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: Yeah. It's amazing. It's, it, it's amazing how rarely you hear anybody say anything like that in our society. You know, do what? Just do what feels good. Yucca: Yep. Mark: anybody, just do what feels good. Do that, do that some more. Cuz it's, cuz it's good for you. Yucca: Right, Mark: But we're here to tell you weekly that, that's, that's. That's what we recommend. Yucca: right. So what are some of the things that you particularly enjoy in terms of do you, you know, is it dried leaves or sticks, or, you know, is there something that you really enjoy bringing into your home? Mark: You know, it depends on the season. I live about 30 miles away from the Pacific Ocean, and I don't get out there nearly as much as I would like to because 30 miles is enough to be a little bit of an impediment. I. But and I have to go through all this magnificent redwood country to get there, which kind of sidetracks me sometimes. But when I do go to the beach, I inevitably come home with a bunch of rocks and maybe a shell or two. And it's because. It's a combination of them being polished very to, to a pretty high gloss for nature. And also that they're often wet and so you can see their colors and their patterns more vividly than when they're dry. And so I'll end up, you know, bringing those home I Anne, a participant in our Saturday mixer on a regular basis. Had a suggestion this morning that she says she puts them in potted plants. You know, the, okay, I got a cool rock. Now it's going into potted plant. If you're getting them from the ocean, rinse the salt off first. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: That's important because you know, most plants are not very salt tolerant. They don't like it. Yucca: Right. We actually do that as well for very practical reason as we have a cat in our house. And sometimes he decides that other things will be his litter box, and so we put pine cones and, and rocks and things like that into the potted plants and that prevents him from doing that. Mark: Oh, wow. I, I have not heard of that problem before, but that Yucca: Oh, really? That's a, that's a cat. Yeah. I mean, he's pretty good about not doing it now. But when we lived in a smaller apartment, yeah, sometimes he would just decide that that was gonna be his litter box instead. So, but the shells and the wet rocks we actually, so. Two weeks. But the reason we missed the podcast a couple weeks back is that my family, we went out to Florida for my brother's wedding. And so I took the kids to the beach for the first time in their life and they were, they were delighted. And of course, we came back with several gallon bags of shells because that was, we, I mean, how, how could you not, right? Shells and rocks and little you know, dead. Dried up coral things and, and all of that. And one of the things that we've done is taken a big vase and put some of the water in it and them in the water, in the, the glass vase. Because there just is something about it being in the water, right.  Mark: They're just much more visible that way. That's wonderful. That's a great idea. Yucca: Yeah. And of course we have ones that aren't, and you know, they're, they're being sorted by color over and again and all of that. But that, that's just been my favorite thing so far. And actually we took a few little pieces of dried up seaweed that was left on the, and that's in there too. That won't last quite as long as the rocks and shells will. Mark: Well, that's really great. I am, I mean, I love the desert and I've spent a lot of time in the American desert, but the op, having the opportunity to see a place that's, that has the ocean and is very wet and all that kind of stuff, you know, for your kids, I'm sure was just really magical. Yucca: I have to share just one thing as we were, we flew there. And so this was also their first airplane trip and we went, we. We stopped in, you know, Dallas on the way to get there and my daughter was looking out the plane and she looked down the, cuz I made sure to get window seats for the kids since, you know, they're gonna be first airplane try ride. And she's looking down and she goes, mom, the ground is green because, you know, we, the farthest we'd ever been is, is into Colorado with her, which is very similar. Southern Colorado and Northern New Mexico are very similar. So she hadn't really seen anything like that before. And just them seeing that kind of grass, we have plenty of grass here, but it's golden. Right? And it will pop green for like a month during the, the monsoons, but the rest of the time it's just this golden brown. And so they were just fascinated at seeing. You know, grass on the ground and seeing all those kinds of trees. So yeah, we spent a lot of time and there were so many things we, you know, they wanted to bring back, but I had to inform them and we, unfortunately we can't take this on the airplane. And, and those big, giant beautiful leaves are not gonna last when we Mark: Oh yeah, yeah, like the giant monster and the banana trees and you know, Yucca: Yeah, Mark: wonderful things. Yucca: and we have a banana tree plant in our house, but of course it gets to like three feet tall. And the ones that we were looking at, I mean, they were just humongous. The leaves were as big as their bodies and going, you know, we're gonna take some photos, but those aren't gonna come, those can't come home with us. You know, we could take the cool rocks and the shells, those will last. So that's something to think about in your own environment. You know, you know, we cut things and bring them in sometimes, but some things are gonna stay very well in the home and some things aren't gonna stay very well, Mark: Right. Yeah. So you were asking about what kinds of things I bring in, and one example was, Rocks from the, from the coast. For whatever reason, we have very few shells on our coast now, and that was not the way that it was when I was a child. There's been a tremendous die off of of Yucca: acidification maybe? Mark: probably from a combination of warming and acidification. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: So I don't see that as much as I did when I was a child. But. But the rocks are there and of course the, the, the California coast is very rugged, that's got these sort of cliffs and bluffs and stuff, and it's really just very beautiful to be there. And even on a weekend, I can usually find a cove on the Sonoma coast where I'm entirely by myself, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: which is amazing. Makes you feel like the last person on earth. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So yeah, bringing in those things. And you asked about dried leaves as well. I actually go on an excursion to get colored leaves for my focus, my altar. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: In the fall there's a particular breed of a tree called a liquid amber, which I believe on the east coast is called a Sweet Gum. Yucca: Okay. Mark: And they, they hold their leaves for much longer than many other trees. They'll hold them sometimes as long as into December Yucca: Okay. Mark: they. Yucca: Is this a broadleaf tree or is it Mark: It is, it's a broadleaf tree. And they go through these beautiful evolutions of color until they're, they're sort of a maroon red when they're, when they're at the end of the whole cycle. But you can, you can pick them in various stages of development. And then you have these. Leaves that are sort of green at the root and then yellow fading into orange and then red at the tips of the leaves. Just, just very, very beautiful things. And I like to decorate for the fall for, for harvest and for hellos with those kinds of things. There's just an awful lot of wonderful nature out there and, and it's, it's hard not to want to bring it all back. Yucca: So do you have a certain, so you've got your focus, do you have certain places in your house where you gather things or is it just sort of spread out everywhere around the house? Mark: we, we have a joke that our, you know how people talk about architectural themes, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: different kinds of architectural styles? Well, In our house, the theme is Welcome to the Museum of Natural History. We have glass cases with all kinds of various interesting things, historical things and natural things. We have you know, bookshelves and all that kind of stuff. And, and to be fair, every horizontal surface has some cool thing on it. And. If it doesn't look like a cool thing, when you've heard the story about what it really is, you'll know what a cool thing it's, Yucca: Nice. Mark: Like here, here's an example. I, I have a piece of obsidian that's about this big, it's kind of, heart Yucca: about a golf ball to your, your whole, the audience can't see your Mark: Oh, that, of course. Yes. It's, it's flat, but it's about as big a round as a golf ball, and it's sort of heart shaped and it's heavily worn and eroded. And other than that, it just looks like a piece of obsidian that's been eroded and worn and all that kind of stuff. But what that is is a dinosaur gastro lift. Yucca: Oh. Mark: You, you find them in the rib cages of fossil dinosaurs and they're, it's from the gizzard of the dinosaur, right. That collects gravel to help them digest their food. Yucca: Right. Mark: So, I mean, it's an amazing thing. My grandfather found it. And I've had it since I was a kid. So even the Yucca: rock swallowed by a dinosaur to help it digest ground up and digest its food. Mark: That's right. Yucca: Wow. Mark: Yeah. Cool thing to have, eh? So, I mean, it's gotten to the point where I actually wrote an interpretive guide for our house so that people know what all the, the various exhibit things are that sense of wonder. Is something that, and we'll talk about this later on in this episode, that's something that I really cultivate Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: that sense of amazement. Like, wow, maybe a hundred million years ago, a dinosaur swallowed this rock. And then it did duty for long enough to get all the edges worn off of it into a nice, smooth pebble until the dinosaur died.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: know, just extraordinary thing to think about. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: So how about you? How about I. I, I didn't really answer your question. We do have other places where we'll put things like colored leaves in the fall and stuff like that, but it sounds like you do more elaborate kind of household changes over the course of seasons. Yucca: Yeah. Our house is constantly moving. Right. And, and part of that is simply the, the age range of the people who live in the house. You can't really have something on a. Flat surfaces that are low down do not get left alone for longer than 10 minutes. So there are certainly, you know, we have got bookshelves and things a little bit higher up that are slightly more permanent, but most things are, are changing very constantly. And there's just. Mark: kids are getting taller. Yucca: And the kids are getting, they're always getting taller and they're climbing, right? No, they're pretty good now about not climbing onto things that they shouldn't, but they've, they've learned, Mark: Hmm. Yucca: And. That the gravity has helped them learn about that. But, you know, things are, are changing and I purposely change things as well throughout the season. It's just something that, you know, ev I, I just start to kind of get that itch of I wanna change things around. And, you know, things are coming into the house and things are going back out of the house, and it's a just a, it just seems. To flow quite a bit. Things are always flowing and moving out. There are a few things that do end up staying for, that are more kind of treasures that'll stay for longer. Like those seashells, right? Those are, some of them will probably make their way outdoors eventually, but those things will probably stay Mark: Sure. Yucca: right. Mark: Yeah. I, I have seashells. I'm, I'm looking at one right now that I picked up on the Costa del Soul in Spain when I was 11, and it's still here with me. Yucca: Yeah. And so, but then there's certain, like most of the windows are full of the, I really like the glass Vs. With things in them, right? So we've got lots of those things and there's a snake skin in the window that we found a couple weeks ago and a, you know, that kind of stuff. And so it's just a very. I dunno, it just feels to me like the house is cha changes with the season so much. And that's. Some of that is just the style of how we live, and some of it was very purposely cultivated. You know, it's, and some ways it's easier for us because we are on this kind of homestead out, away from people and live kind of half outside anyways. But when we did live in a city that was, that was kind of a way for me to try and feel more connected because I, I definitely would start to feel very overwhelmed with the city of everything. So I would try and change the colors. I would bring things in. I don't do this anymore because where we live is so surrounded by creatures and things, but I used to play bird songs, right? I had recordings of water, of water flowing. I'd have recordings of, and birds, and I would just have that going on in the background as just a way to kind of, One to block out the sound of the city, right? Cause I found that very stressful of there's the car alarm and then the police car going off and the this and the that, and the, you know, all of that. But, but just being able to sort of cultivate that. But now, you know, now the bird is like two feet out my window and, and being plenty loud, so. And then certain places seem to collect certain things. There's around the bathroom sink, there's just rocks of all kinds, and I think that's because they get brought in and washed off and then, then they start to live there. And so now it just feels like, yes, of course bathroom sinks is where rocks go, right? Yes. Mark: Sounds reasonable to me. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: I mean, I can't think of anywhere else in the house that's more reasonable for rocks to go set maybe in a potted plant. Yucca: In a potted plant. Yes. My four year old seems to think the shoes by the door. But you know, it's amazing how often Legos end up in shoes by the door. Mark: You know, as you talk about all this and and I give my own examples and stuff, the word that comes to mind is curation, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: and it seems as though. One of the things about being alive is that there's this fire hose of information that's just kind of blasting us all the time. Right. All the different sensory information and the news and the internet and, you know, the, the community events and scuttlebutt and gossip and what's happening with all the different people. We're connected with all that stuff and it is, so we're kind of being bombarded all the time and. I think a part of the, the life that we, you and I Yucca envision for folks living in naturalistic paganism, and certainly I do for myself, is one where we curate our experience in a way that's empowering and happiness. Producing rather than stress inducing or depression inducing or anxiety producing. Yucca: Yes. Yeah, I love that. I, I think that's a wonderful way of putting it. Because really there's, there is so much around us, right? And, but what do we choose to focus on? What do we choose to bring into focus? That's something that we do have. Power and influence O f R. Right. Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: You know, we don't get to, there's a lot of things that we don't get to change in life. There's most things, the vast, vast majority of things we have absolutely no control over, right? But what we're focusing on, what we find important we do have control over that. And that really changes our experience of what it's like to be us. Mark: Right. Yeah. We do have control over those things and. It's, it's one of those situations where you have to make the decision to grab the wheel, right? Because otherwise you're basically at the mercy of two things, which is the randomness of whatever information is flying towards you, and that evolutionary pre predilection for looking for problems and the negative. Yucca: Right. Mark: So if you choose to be in more control around this, if you choose to be a curator of your experience, then you can get in the habit of smelling the roses along the way when you're walking from the parking lot into your workplace. Stopping to look at what the clouds are doing. Stopping to watch tree branches blowing in wind. You know, enjoying those rocks and shells and leaves and seed pods and all the cool things that nature makes. Yucca: Mm-hmm. You know, this reminds me of a book actually that I read a few years back and it was really, really influential and it was, it's called Digital Minimalism. It's by, I believe, Cal Newport. And it isn't what the title sounds like. At first the title sounds like being like anti-tech or like a Luddite or something. But it's actually about really. Being thoughtful about the role that the screen and digital things play in our lives. And he does this a very beautiful job of one he does spell out. Kind of the, the terrible state some of that is in and how the attention that that's all designed to hold our attention as long as possible. And it's not really done in a way that is, that's thoughtful about our wellbeing. It's more about the pockets of the people designing these programs. But it, it does a really lovely job of, of. Walking one through to think about what are the things that they, that you really value, and how do you cultivate that? And how do you create a life in which you can focus on those things? And how do you use tools like the, how do you use digital tools to help you do that? And how do you let go of the ones that aren't helping you to do that? So I just, Mark: great. Yucca: Yeah, so I'd really I, I like quite a bit of Cal Newport stuff, so that's digital minimalism if anyone is interested in Mark: Why don't we put a link to that in the show notes? Yucca: Yeah, let's do that.  Mark: Yeah, because when you think about it, one of the few things that we really have choice about in our lives is our attention. Yucca: mm-hmm. Mark: Right. We, we can make considered thoughtful, informed decisions about where we're going to apply our attention, and that can be on things that. Bring anxiety or bring, or, or help us to, you know, re-experience trauma and we call those triggers. I heard a wonderful term in the mixer this morning from our community member Summer who said that she heard this term glimmers, which are like the opposite of triggers. They're things that fill us with hope and inspiration and a sense of joy in living. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: can, we can look for those things. Right? I had this moment yesterday. I was sitting in a cafe waiting for a friend, and the door to the cafe opens and this little boy trots in. He's on the move. He's, he's, he, he must, he couldn't have been more than four. I don't think he was three Yucca: Okay. So real little, little Mark: Yeah. Beautiful little black kid with this gigantic grin on his face. And his mother comes in behind him and closes the door and he was just, and, and then he stands there with his feet planted and his hands kind of out by his side. He's like, this is a cafe. Wow. And you could just see that he was drinking In this experience of having come into this new space and looking around, you know, what are people doing? What are they doing? This place, what's it all about? And you know, with, with this, this. Just this glow of happiness and I just, I, I couldn't help but smile. I wanted to watch that kid for a while, you know? So that was a glimmer. Yucca: Hmm. That's such a delightful idea about a glimmer. Right. Because, and I, I think that there could be a lot of power in just taking a moment to think about what are the things that, that are your glimmers or could be your glimmers, right? Because we can, we can choose to have those associations as well. That you're taking the time to focus on, okay, what are the things that inspire awe in me and that make me hopeful, or whatever it is? And just taking the, the time to think about those I think is really, is really great. And then finding them throughout the day, right. Mark: right. And, and figuring out maybe some. Rules of thumb for how to keep yourself in that state to as great a degree as possible. Now, I'm not saying never watch the news. You know, I, we ha I feel like as a responsible person, I have to be engaged with what's happening in my society, and I need to make what effort I can to have things go in, in a way that's consistent with my values, but that there's a difference between that and being obsessed. With the news and it's just wave after wave of, oh my God, they can't do that if they're, oh my God, they're doing that. You know, this, this terrible, terrible, you know, wave of feelings. So you can curate that. You can narrow it down. You can tell yourself, okay, I'm gonna log on to my favorite news site once a day and I'm gonna read the headlines and I'll read a couple of stories that seem like they're useful. You know, for me to know, and then I'm gonna move on and I'm gonna do other stuff that feeds me more. Yucca: Right. Yeah. I think that's really important and to create that balance and that by, by choosing to log off after that time, you're not being. A bad citizen, right? You're not being a, like, you don't have to buy into the, the guilt around it because those moments of joy, like you were talking about the little kid coming in that is as valid as. Any of the other stuff, right? That is as much valid part of existence and this life in this world and giving it your attention is something that it's one, it's worth the attention in its own, but also it's good for you. Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: are gonna do a better job being a more effective person in the world when you are. More balanced and, and healthy and happy. If you are miserable, you're not going to do it. You're not gonna be able to do a good a job taking care of the things and helping whatever the situation is that you want to help. Right, Mark: because despair is disempowering. Yucca: right. Mark: Fundamentally, when we despair, we throw up our hands and say, well, that's the way the world is. Nothing I can do about it. And it, it just sucks. But that's life, and that's a terrible message to tell to yourself and to anyone around you. I, you know, I, I frequently go back to the deathbed test, right? How am I gonna feel about how I chose to operate in my life when I'm dying? And what I hope is that I'm gonna look back at all this and go, wow, what an adventure. There was just such amazing stuff all along the way with that and just such beautiful times and moments, and what a world this is. Rather than, well, I didn't solve world hunger, so I guess I failed. Right. You know, something like that. Some kind of unreasonable expectation that's informed by a, a situation that's really kind of beyond any one individual's capacity to change. Yucca: Right. Now I think that there's also another part, another kind of side of this is when we're looking for the things that are going to bring us joy and the things that make us hopeful and inspire awe and all of that, that there will be times in our life when we don't feel those things. Right. There will be times when we aren't happy about something. There will be times when you get cut off or in traffic or your spouse says that thing again, or all of those. And that's, those things are part of life and those are things that for the most part, we really don't have control over. Right. And that's okay. But Mark: Yeah. I mean, if you're in Yucca: yeah. Mark: if you're in grief, you should not be expecting yourself to. You know, carefully cherry pick all the, the beautiful things about the world because you are in grief. And the same is the same, I, I have to say, as someone who has lived with major depression since I was a little kid depression does not indicate a failure of what we're talking about in this podcast. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: Depression is a neurochemical condition. It's something you can't help. It's something that's not your fault. It's not a moral failing. And if you find that your world is really dark and gray and and dismal because of it, don't pile on top of it. All the other messages you're getting from your brain that you should be, you know, Looking for butterflies. That's, not fair to you and it's not accurate to the situation That is, that's, that's not a realistic statement. Yucca: Right. It's not a, and it's not a failure on your part. Mark: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yucca: So there's, there's things in the world that we really, we do not have control over. But. But a lot of the things that we're talking about today are the things that we, that we can influence and focusing on which of those things can we influence And, and those are the, those are the places where I think we have a lot of power is figuring out what, what do we actually have power? Over, which isn't a lot, but actually when you really get down to it, it is right. I don't have pow power over what you're doing, mark, but I do have some influence over how I'm gonna respond to whatever you're doing is. And that's gonna take time, right? It's not like I can just magically say like, oh, I'm not, you know, I'm gonna respond this way. Like, no, it doesn't really work that way. It's something that we practice, and that's where I think a lot of the stuff that we talk about on the podcast, like rituals and different kinds of practices can really help because they're a way for us to practice and learn how to change our responses. Mark: Yes. Yes. That's really well said. I'm, I mean, I know, I know some Pagan people, just a few. A handful who's, Ritual practices have fallen way off after years of, you know, religiously, literally religiously observing all the sabbaths and, you know, having a personal practice and all that kind of stuff. And what's happened is they've gotten to the point where they're able to curate their lives. that there is a sense of celebration and interconnectedness and appreciation going on most of the time. And when it's not, it's for good reasons and they have tools for, for working with that. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: So, you know, when we talk about having a ritual practice, The point of having a ritual practice is not to have a ritual practice. The point of having a ritual practice is to create moments. Moments when we celebrate, moments when we're joyful, moments, when we're connected, when we see ourselves in the true magnificence of what we are. Right. And. So that, that's why we encourage a ritual practice, right? But, but the point, the point was always the outcome. The point was the happiness and the improvement of happiness in the world. That's, that's, that's where we're going with all this. So if you don't have much in the way of a ritual practice, And you still find yourself feeling very contented and appreciative, and humble and connected and all those things. Well, good for you. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: You, you know, if it ain't broke. Yucca: Right. But you know, there's, the great thing is that there's a lot of different ways to, there's a lot of different ways to live, Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: right? And each of us is gonna have something a little bit different and our goals are gonna be a little bit different and there's gonna be different ways of, of meeting those goals. And so that some of the things we've been talking about today are, are tricks and. Tools that we can use to cultivate some of that, right? And sometimes that may be really paying attention to that gravel and bringing a little peace home with you. And sometimes it, maybe it's that finding what your glimmers are, and maybe it's having a nightly practice with your focus, right? Or a circle. At the solstice or something like that. So I l I really appreciate mark, that we get to explore some of these ideas on the podcast and that all you folks are here listening and sending your emails in and being part of that discussion. Mark: Oh, me too. So much. And it is so gratifying when I see. On the atheopagan Facebook group or the Discord server, or in one of the Zoom gatherings, when people say, you know, oh, I, I discovered this through the podcast, or you know, that podcast episode two weeks ago really resonated with me and it's changed how I do X and y. I mean, that's what feeds me and keeps me going, right? The idea that you know, it's not like you and I have all the answers. But we can share what perspectives we have Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: and collectively we can all get better. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: Which is you, you know, the rising tide, right? Raising all the boats And so, you know, that's, that's really what I find moving and, and motivating about, you know, doing this. And once again, I am so grateful that you you suggested doing a podcast and we were able to collaborate in this way. I think it's worked out so well. Yucca: that's, it's been a joy really. So, Mark: This sounds like we're stopping. We're, we're, we're not we're, we're Yucca: oh yeah. Mark: we're just a mutual admiration society. Yucca: Yeah. But we do have something that we wanna mention another venue format for more of this great stuff, Mark: Right. Yucca: that's coming up. Mark: You, you may, if you're in the atheopagan community in one way or another. You have probably heard by now of the atheopagan Web Weaving Online Conference, which is going to be held by Zoom on June 3rd and fourth. And we just wanna remind you that that's gonna happen. If you, and we'll put a link to the, the. The webpage where you can go to register and download the program and all that kind of stuff. In the show notes, the the keynote speaker is going to be Jared Anderson, who also goes by the crypto naturalist. He's this beautiful poet of nature and appreciation for the cosmos. Just really lovely stuff. And I was interested to learn, he's, he's actually got a book coming out, I think in two years which is about his struggle with depression and how that has led him to the natural world which sounds awfully familiar to me. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: So I'm looking forward to reading it when that comes out. But in the meantime, we get to hear him as our keynote speaker. And so really encourage you to register for that and to come to that event. It's over those two days, June 3rd and fourth. Lots of interesting workshops and activities, opportunities to socialize. So, go ahead and click that link down below and we hope to see you there. Yucca: Yep. Mark: So thank you so much, Yucca. This is, this has just been another lovely conversation. I really appreciate it. Yucca: likewise, and we'll see you all next week.

Remember, we welcome comments, questions, and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com. S4E3 TRANSCRIPT:----more---- Mark: Welcome back to the Wonders Science-Based Paganism. I'm your host, Mark. Yucca: And I'm Yucca. Mark: and today we're going to talk about practices and developing a practice carrying one on keeping one fresh and alive. All those things about having a personal. Yucca: right. And we hope that there'll be a lot of useful ideas and information for people who are just starting, but also for people who have had a practice and are looking for ways to. Continue to develop that or kind of stay in the habit of it. Mark: Right, because a practice is a wonderful thing to have, and it can also, if you're doing the same thing for months or years on end, you can also start. To feel a little routine, a little stale. And there are things you can do to sort of blow yourself out of that normality, get out of the rut, and try some new things that can incorporate into your practice in really enlivening waves. So that's part of what we're gonna talk about at the end of the program. But at first, let's start talking about developing a pro a a practice. When you're first starting. Yucca: right. Mark: When you come to Athe paganism or naturalistic paganism in some kind of sense, and you're like, okay, this cosmology totally works for me, right? I'm a science-based person, I'm a reason based person. You know, this evidence-based approach to spirituality, you know, really rings my bell. So now what do I do about that? Well, okay, I'm gonna celebrate these stations of holidays around the course of the year. That's great, right? That will help you to plug into the cycles of nature. And that's really what we're about, is about having a deep relationship with nature. Understanding ourselves as organisms that are a part of nature. That's a great thing, but what about day-to-day? , you know, the, the Sabbaths are seven, eight weeks apart, right? It's, it's, and at least for me, it's not enough to say, okay, every seven or eight weeks, I'm gonna, I'm, I'm gonna pay attention to Nature I, I need more than that. So, Many people have a daily practice, or in some cases a monthly practice that's organized around the cycles of the moon. Yucca: Mm-hmm. . Right. So I think that a, a really good place to start, and this is whether you're coming in fresh or have had a practice for a while, is to really do some. Some reflecting upon what, why? Why do you want this practice? What, what is meaningful to you? What are your goals? What are you hoping to accomplish? Because it really is about what you are trying to get out of it, right? We don't have any Gods looking down on us who want us to perform this special thing at this special time. It's no what? What is it for you? Why are you doing it for you? And that could be a lot of different things and it's gonna be different for it's different for Mark and for me and for you. And it's gonna be different at different points in our own lives. Mark: for sure, because maybe your primary focus is your family unit, right? Maybe what you're trying to do is to create culture and and values for your family, and so demonstrating those and creating experiences that reinforce them. is sort of the centerpiece, the, the core ethic of what you're seeking to accomplish. That's great. Right. But that's gonna be a practice that's about finding the right childhood stories, right, and creating the kinds of household observances that give you and your children and partners Yucca: household members, whoever they are. Yeah. Mark: Yeah, the, the kind of experience that reinforces the values and, and cosmology that you find really meaningful. So all of that is great. But in, on the other hand, you may be a solitary person. You may either be a solo person or someone who is partnered with someone that isn't interested in your path, and so you're doing this yourself and you're trying to find, how do I do this in a way that continually fuels that sense of meaning Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: that I'm getting out of this. Practice of being an atheopagan or a naturalistic pagan and some of that may be okay. I'm engaging with people in the online communities. I am reading stuff that's being distributed by. The atheopagan Society or you know, various science writers or all that kind of stuff. But it can also be how am I gonna challenge myself to jump over some things that feel like hurdles for me? Yucca: Hmm. Mark: How am I gonna make myself bigger? How am I gonna stretch? Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: Because one of the things that we're really about as atheopagan or naturalistic pagans is the, the affirmation of the self, right? Yucca: right. Mark: We're, we're not about telling you that you've got original sin and you're small and need to be fixed. , our ethic is entirely different. It's about you are glorious and golden and we want you to bring the you that is you out into the world with as much visibility and vigor as you possibly can. And that's a radically different way of approaching things than the over culture wants you to approach them with. But at the same time, , it's much healthier. Yucca: right. and your practice is also a way that you can build in health into your life, right? That self care, that and, and thinking about how it feels to be you every day so it's really an opportunity for you to, to look at how you want to feel each day or each week or through the seasons, and to work towards that. It's a tool for you to be able to feel the way and experience, have the type of experiences you want in your life. Mark: yes. Yes. We have to remember that unlike many other religious paths, the point of our practice is happiness and self-actualization and to help make the world a better place. It's not about serving the edicts of some other power or some list of rules or any of. . So it's important in building your personal individual daily or weekly or monthly or whatever it is, practice that you keep that in mind. How is this helping me to be happy? Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: How is this bringing more meaning into my life when I light those candles on my focus every night? Why do I do that? I don't do it just because it's a habit. I do it because it's meaningful to me, and the things that I say at that moment are moving to me, even though I see them every night. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And if that starts to get really dry or routines such that I lose the magic of it, magic in quotes, right? Then it's time for me to make some changes. It's time for me to figure out how can I make this practice feel like I'm pushing the edge. Yucca: right? Yeah. So why don't we talk about a few things that, that people might consider after sitting down. And really thinking about what it is that they want to achieve with their practice. And last week we were talking quite a bit about the Wheel of the Year, and that's a great place to start, right? With a, with a seasonal a seasonal regional approach. But what about a weekly or daily kind of practice? Mark: Yeah, the thing about the wheel of the year is that it happens pretty slowly and so, and it can take you a year of observing what's happening in nature around you at every given station of the Wheel of the year in order to get a good grip on, here's what I'm gonna celebrate as we go around, right? A year or more, maybe more cycles than that. But what you can do immediately is you can start doing a weekly practice or a daily practice, or if you like, you can follow the moon cycles and do like a monthly practice Yucca: or all of those, Mark: or, or all of those. I mean, if you're really gung-ho and you wanna do lots of ritual practices, then you know, by all means, it's, it's available to you and you're free to do it, and there's nothing wrong with it. It's good for you. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: So when it comes to a daily practice, what I think about is what's gonna help me feel better connected. Yucca: Mm. Mark: You know, what I really want is to feel like I'm connected to nature and to this vast cosmos that gave rise to us. I want to, I want to acknowledge that on a daily basis. And so that's what I. that's what I do. And I also want to acknowledge what has gone before because I feel like, you know, if what had gone before hadn't gone before, I wouldn't be here. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So there's Yucca: tiniest little difference and he wouldn't be here and it's so many places. Yeah. Mark: absolutely. So there, there are so many reasons why. I mean, many of us, if not all of us, practicing this path have a lot of data in our heads about evolution and fossils and the progression of animal development over time. You know it, and maybe further back, further back into, you know, the earliest microorganisms all. Understanding of evolution and the development of the planet and the development of the sun and all those things. How do I make that personal to me in this moment? Because yes, it's history, but it's still going on right now, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: The, the, the burning of the sun is happening right now. The evolution of the earth is happening right now, and I am a piece. Yucca: right? Mark: So thinking about how you can develop a practice that acknowledges that somehow is something that's really valuable. And I can't understate the significance of lighting candles. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: You know, it seems, it seems very ordinary because you know, every church you go to, they like candles. Well, why do they do? Yucca: there's a reason for it. Yeah. Mark: Yeah. There is a reason for it, and the reasons to my mind are threefold. The first is there is a magic to creating fire out of nothing. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: You got this match, you got this candle. They're both these cold inanimate objects, but then suddenly there's. And that creates light and heat. It's, it's a, it's an inherently mysterious and incredible experience for us. Right. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: So that's the first piece. The second piece is that we, Resonate psychologically to low light conditions, especially flickering low light conditions. This is why every bar you go into has low light conditions. Every dance club you go into has low light conditions because they understand that people will feel more free and liberated if they don't feel like they're being stared at, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: and bright light makes them feel like they're being stared. So those are two of the big pieces. And then the third is that there's something about the ignition of fire on a focus or altar of symbolic objects that feels like bringing it to life. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And that sounds very woo and okay. but it feels like bringing it to life, it feels like, okay, these were, these were sedentary inanimate objects sitting on a shelf, but now there is a living process happening in the middle of them, right? Yucca: Hmm. Mark: That is shedding light and heat, and is also making all of those objects somehow engaged in an active process. And I think that all three of those things together really contribute to a personal practice. To a daily practice. And there's something very significant about taking that moment, you know, listening to your deeper longing. and saying, okay, you know, we're doing our evening thing. There's kids, there's there's movies to watch, there's dinner, there's all that kind of stuff. But I need 15 minutes to myself. I'm gonna light these candles and I'm gonna sit in near darkness, I'm gonna contemplate the fact that I'm alive. I'm alive and I'm here and it's rare and it's special and it's unique. There will never be another person and never be another organism like me. I'm this unique manifestation of the universe living a life, a temporary, small life, and I'm gonna seize this 15 minutes to really get. that's what I do with my daily practice. That that's, that's the difference that it makes in my life. Yucca: Hmm. That's so beautiful and thank you for sharing that with us. Yeah, for us. I don't have 15 minutes Mark: Yeah, I, I hear. Yucca: And. . I mean, there, there are moments where there are 15 minutes in the day, of course, but but because I have young children that for me to get time to be alone means waking up at three in the morning. And that's what I do to work sometimes when I really need to concentrate. I get up at three in the morning and that's, that's what does it. But. Have a little bit of a different approach for the daily practice. We have a, a morning and an evening, and it's something that brings the kids into it that they have as well. And I find that with, and then I have a lot of little things that I do throughout the day as well. But these are the big, the core and really the morning practices, the main one. It's the first thing that we do and it really sets this, the tone for the rest of the day. So we. . And if it's the summer, we'll actually go outside. And then in the winter we don't go outside for this because it's too way, way too cold. Cuz we live in a, a climate that gets very cold below freezing in the mornings. So, but we'll go to the window and we have a little wooden. Sign that we painted together with just some little kind of morning affirmations that we, that we came up with together that talk about some of the things like remembering that, you know, that we can control how, how our thoughts make us feel and kind of some things like that that are important to us. But we start with saying good morning to the. And just taking a moment to breathe together, three deep breaths, breathing together, looking at the sun, saying good morning to it. And, and I'm very pleased the kids have noticed how each day or over time, not each day, but over time, where the sun is when we do it, has changed. Right? They're noticing that, oh, the sun is over here now, but it used to be over there when it was rising. Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: that there are some, we. Always talk about, you know, what are some things that we're grateful for and, you know, what are the kinds of challenges that might come that we might face today? And how, you know, how can we address overcoming that, right? If, if the days that planning is that we're going to go to grandma's house, but then the tires flatten, we can't go to grandma's house, you know, we kind of practice ahead of time, like, oh, how are we gonna prepare for that? And that helps that when it does most of the time, the bad stuff doesn't happen. but when it does, you go, oh, we talked about this. Right? And then talk about what it is that we're gonna focus on in ourselves, practice in ourselves. And, you know, it takes three, four minutes and it completely changes the day. And then Mark: Well, and it can, and it completely changes your kids Yucca: yeah. Mark: doing. Raises them to be very different people than if you hadn't done that. Yucca: Hmm. . Yeah. Well, Mark: significant. Yucca: yeah. Well, I think e everything that we do and that I, we have, there's too much pressure on parents already, but everything that we do, every choice that we're making is influencing their foundation for the world and how they understand the world. And this moment there, there's this, this thing that we do in our culture sometimes is that like childhood doesn't count some. Oh, it's just preparing for real life, right? I remember being at being in school, and it was always about preparing to be in middle school, and then it was preparing to be in high school, and then preparing to be in college, and then preparing to be in the real, and it felt so strange and empty after getting out of school. It was like, well, Mark: Now Yucca: the real life, right? It's like, no, no, no. This is the moment. This is the only moment that we have. Maybe we're lucky enough that there will be, that we will get to be here in five years or 10 years, but we don't know if we. Mark: that's. Yucca: I hope so much. I, I really, really hope and am doing everything I can to try and make sure that my kids will be here in 20 years, but they might not, we might all die in a car crash tomorrow. Right. So what we do today matters so much because it is the only moment that we actually have. Right. So our, our practice is really about trying to. To be really present and intentional Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: because, you know, we, we, as you were saying, we are this special rare being that is just for a moment, just the tiniest moment. So what, so what can I do to feel, to be aware of that? . Right. And then the end of the day practice that we do is, is very similar. We have another little piece of art that we made and and over time we'll probably change out what that piece of art is, but it has another little thing that we, that we read together, and then we talk about the things that we saw during the day, the things that we observed and felt. Also have a little like release ritual where we can release the, okay, the day's done, what happened happened, right? I can't change what happened, I can let go of that, but I can think about how I'm gonna do it differently in the future, but now it's time to rest and to let be what is. And so those are really the very first thing we. when we get up, well, when they get up . And the very first thing they, we do, and when we go to. now as an adult I steal moments out of the day and most of my, my personal that isn't with the, the kids practice actually is in the bathroom because that's the only place that I can lock the door, right? So I think that there's moments in our lives when we're trying to build in habits and practices that are, are placed, things that we're already. I'm sure there's some term for it, but a habit that you have, like every day you do certain things, at least every day. You go to the bathroom multiple times a day, but most people probably have a, a routine when they get outta bed. Yeah. You do this and then you go and you, if you, if you're a coffee drinker, first thing you do is you. The water on for your coffee or something like that. And that's a moment. There's a lot of power in those because you can add something in there. That's where you can add in a moment of, oh, I'm gonna take a moment and ground right while my coffee is brewing. I'm gonna ground every day. and you can slip that in and you can find places. It's gonna be different for everyone. I don't do a lot of commuting any now, any, any more now, but when I did, I had a thing when I got into my car and I put the keys in the ignition. That was a, that was my cue to, okay, what is the, I'd have a little ritual that I would do, so just remind me to be present and, and set intention and that sort of thing. Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: So that's where we are right now. And of course, as life changes, those practices change, but you know, it's, people can find in their own lives what their, what do they wanna do, what's the intention that they have and, and how to do that. Mark: Sure. And one of the things that's great about this path and. Living it in a family is that you can go to, you know, you, you can go to your kids at 10 and say, well, we're gonna keep doing the the morning thing that we do, but, You know, you can have your own practice now too. You can have your own daily practice, and I mean, I'm happy to help you with ideas about that, but it's yours and it can be whatever you want it to be, so that as people are being developed and launched into adulthood, they're doing that with not only. A really strong sense of connectedness and a family support and of all those things, but also of of personal empowerment to make choices about what happens with them psychologically. One of the things that I find really a little shocking about the the Christian over culture is that because. Puts everything in the hands of its God. We aren't taught anything about the ritual tools that would help us to be happier, less paranoid, less hostile, more joyous, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: more creative and, and ritual skills will do all those things for. Yucca: Great. Mark: that's a lot of what the atheopagan path is about, is about unlocking your capacity as an individual to express those things in your unique way, which is unlike anybody else's. Yucca: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And that's, that's part of what we're trying to do with the practice. So we've just given some ideas for, just shared some of our own ideas for daily practices but that there's also the opportunity for other timeframes, right? A weekly practice or as we talked about, a, a monthly, so a lunar and then seasonal. So are there, there any things that you practice on a weekly basis? Mark: Well, I wanna step back for a second because I really want to appreciate the conscientiousness and the care that you bring to raising your kids in this tradition. I, I think. I mean, I just, I really wanna honor your, your, your carefulness about wanting your kids to have an experience that really unfolds them. And I, I just, I just think that's really great. So I wanted to say, so Yoko. Yucca: Well, thank you. Well, we're, we're really grateful to have an amazing community to be part of in all of that, right? Mark: Yeah, me too. Me too. I'm psyched about it. Yucca: yeah. Mark: So, yes, there are alternatives if you. One of the things that's really important to get about all of this, and we probably should have said it a long time before, is none of this is obligatory, Yucca: right. Mark: right? There's no guilt trip about missing a day in your daily practice or missing two weeks in your daily practice. There's no, the point is to help you be happier and more actualized, right? If, if life gets in the way, well, life got in the way. And when the time rolls around again, when you feel comfortable restarting you there, there are no apologies to be made. There's, there's no shame. Just go back to it, start it again. That's all fine. And the same thing is true if a daily practice isn't right for you. Well then maybe you want to do something once a week. Yucca: right? Mark: I mean, the Christians have their Sunday, right? And Yucca: lot of religions have, Mark: have their Friday into Saturday. There's, yes, there are a lot of religions that have a day that is very special for them. Well, you can declare one if you want, Yucca: Right. Mark: or you can declare an hour one day a week when you're gonna do your. Yucca: right? Mark: your ritual things that help you to feel connected and feel filled with the enormity of yourself and of the universe is the way that I would say that. So don't worry about all that. Find a cadence that works for you and maybe if you work 60 hours a week and have three kids, Maybe that's not very often. Maybe it's just like I'm gonna celebrate the full moons and the Wheel of the year Sabbaths, and that's all I can manage. Yucca: Mm-hmm. , or I'm gonna add. A daily thing in that when I wash my face in the morning, I'm gonna take 60 seconds extra to do something. Right. And I think now might be a good PO place to put in a reminder that a practice is something that when practices, it may not be easy in the. Mark: right. Yucca: right? Just because you decide, oh yes, I'm gonna do this every day. Doesn't mean you're gonna remember every day, but the more times you do, the more times you do it, the better you get at the skill. But it is, it is a skill, right? So if it's something that really is important to you and it's something that you choose to to work on, then that's something that over time, , you'll be able to develop, but you don't have to beat yourself up if it doesn't come naturally. In the beginning, I don't know who it would come natural for. Mark: Yeah, I, I, I don't either. And one of the reasons why we call it a practice is because you have to practice, right? It's, it's not an action. It's not a thing that you do, and then it's done. It's not a destination, it's a practice, which means it's an ongoing process. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And the day when you feel really angry, Fucked up and unable to deal with anything. is as good a day for your practice as any other day, because that's as true humanly as anything else. Yucca: Or perhaps even more important that day than other days Mark: Maybe. Maybe so. Yucca: maybe that is really the day that, that you need to, that you do need the time in front of the candle or the breathing or whatever it is that you do, Mark: Yeah, Yucca: right? Mark: because. . You know, if the world has really beat on you hard in a given day, you know, maybe you need to gather yourself back together and remember your reasons for self-esteem. Remember your reasons why you're doing what you're doing. And remember that no matter what has happened out there in the world, people don't see you for the entirety of who you. they can't, even if they know you for years, they can't. But if they don't, or if they only see you in really constrained situations like a professional office or something like that, they cannot know the enormity of who you are. And you need to, you need to hold the reality of that in yourself, even if they don. Yucca: right. Mark: Even if they aren't reflecting back to you how glorious you are, you still are is what I want to say to you. Yucca: Yes. Mark: Humans are magnificent and you're one of 'em, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: so. Yes, you can do a lunar cycle. That's not something that has appealed to me so much, although I love the moon. I'm always aware of what cycle the moon is in. I always go out and look at the full moon because I just love it. And I'll put out some water in the moonlight to turn into moon water that I can pour on my altar and stuff like that. I have some incredible water that I just got. We had this torrential rainstorm, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: something like four and a half, five inches of rain, torrential rainstorm, and then it cleared off and the full moon rose. This was on January 6th. and so I have storm moon, water. I, I, this is water that fell from the sky during the storm that I gathered and then sat out in the moonlight overnight. And I'm saving that for special rituals. And yes, of course all imaginary, but it's still really cool, right? Mm-hmm. Yucca: Yeah. Right. It's not that if you gave the water to me without telling me that it would suddenly do something different when I used it than if I used any other water. But because you have that memory and that association with it, that. it. Something's triggered in you when you look at it and use it and feel it. Mark: right. I mean, I will be saving this for our Saan ritual. Our hall's ritual coming up in the beginning of November because part of what we do then is pour water onto the dry ground to call the rain back. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: That's a part of the symbolic action that we do during that ritual, and so I brought a big storm with me, lots of rain. Yucca: Come back. All of it, yeah. Oh, wonderful. Mark: So you can do a monthly practice, a, a lunar practice. Some people are really. Connected with and motivated by the moon. I, I don't have that as much, but that's great. You know, if you feel that sort of connection with the lunar cycle, then by all means orient your personal practice around that cycle. You can do something at the new Moon. You can do something at the full moon if you want to. You can do them at the quarters as well. That gives you a weekly practice every seven days. So I think what we're basically saying here is craft the practice that really works for who you are. Yucca: right. Mark: And that leads me, oh, go ahead. Yucca: Oh, please continue. Mark: Well, that leads me to talking about, well, what happens when you have this practice and you've been doing it for five years and it's starting to feel really like you're phoning it. And to me, since spirituality is about growth, it's not only about connection and sense of connectedness, it's about growth. And so I think there are things you can do with your practice to push the edge. And they can be everything from, I've had a solitary practice for a long time. I'm gonna invite somebody else into that. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: Someone who I trust, someone who I'm connected with. I'm gonna show this part of my life to them and see if they'll join me in participating in these kinds of activities. That's a big risk, but it's also something. Presents an opportunity for relationship building that could be really powerful. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And I've got others, but Yucca. I'm interested in hearing what you have to say. Yucca: I don't remember . I, I was gonna say something. Oh, it's fine. That's the way conversations go, right? So I think, I mean the, the keeping. having a little bit of the, the new and the growth and the, the novelty, the that in. I think that's one of the ways that keeps us present too. Because when it's just the same, we don't notice as much. Mark: It is amazing how much we can drop into routine mode. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: I mean, driving to work, if you do it every day, you can't remember the drive. Yucca: Yeah. Did you, did you stop at that stop sign? You must probably, did you even go through, you had to have gone through the stop sign, right? Cause it was back there. Yeah. Mark: Yeah. It is astounding how much our brains will skip over stuff that seems repetitive, which is why when we travel or take vacations or do creative things, we're really engaged and have very powerful memories because it's all new. Yucca: great. Mark: We remember the novelty. , if your practice is starting to feel routine and drab, it's time to take a step. It's it's time to do something new. Yucca: Right? And we're not saying get rid of the stuff that's working. Right, because if there's something, if you have something where you know, every single evening before you go to or whatever and it, it, it fills a function for you, then, then keep that up. But what is it? What can you add or what can you shift? What can you change a little bit that might. Work better for you and looking at what is it that you want too, because sometimes just making any change might not be the change that that is gonna help you in that moment. Mark: Right, right. And there. There are changes that you can make that are internal changes. There are changes that you can make that are sort of outward facing changes, like inviting someone else or a, a, a community of people into participating in your celebrations of the sabbaths or whatever it is. There are internal things that you can do too. Like, okay, I'm gonna take up a meditation practice. and that can be very hard for a lot of us. I have a D H D I'm terrible at meditating really bad at it. My mind is just all over the place and I understand that at some level that's a deep Buddhistic failing . But honestly, I just, I don't do very well with it. I do great with sitting out in nature and observing things. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: because it's like, oh, bird, oh, squirrel. Oh, you know, I'm, oh, waving trees in the wind. I'm, I'm constantly stimulated by different things that are drawing my attention, but if it comes down to just closing my eyes and trying to have an internal experience, I'm not very good at that. But a lot of people are, and it gives them a lot of feed. It gives them a lot of benefit. from a psychological and spiritual standpoint. So maybe that's the thing that you want to do. Maybe you need some kind of experience that's going to shake you up spiritually, and that could be everything from going skydiving to taking a hallucinogen, Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: any, you know, some sort of intense experience that just makes you. Rethink things. Gives you a new perspective. Yucca: Right. And as we were saying before that if things start, if you feel like you've fallen off that wagon, it's okay. Right? You could just, it's not gone. The wagon's waiting, waiting for you. Right. You can get back up because you are the wagon. , we're just gonna play with the metaphors there. So, it, mm-hmm. Mark: Well, I was gonna say the metaphor that I usually use for people's like New Year's resolutions or. , you know, declarations, I'm never going to do this again, or I'm always going to do this again. These very black and white sort of declarations. It's sort of like the over culture's idea of virginity, right? It's like, okay, when it's gone, it's gone. It's gone forever. Well, that's. Bullshit. It's entirely invented. It has nothing to do with reality. The truth is that if you decide you're gonna stop smoking pot and you do that for six months and then you smoke pot, well, all you gotta do is not do it tomorrow. Yucca: Yeah. It's not like it's, it's all over Mark: Yeah. You, you, you haven't ruined anything. You've just backslid. there's probably a reason for that that you should interrogate, because it'll tell you more about yourself. But just, just do it again tomorrow. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: just keep going. You know? It's like, perfection is not the standard. Yucca: Mm-hmm. , but that, Mark: Oh, go Yucca: that you mentioned, that's, that's really important though, right? Looking at, well, why did it. , why did it happen today? Right. And is that something that I can prepare myself for in the future? Right? If, if a similar situation comes up in the future, what can I do instead? Or what can I do to not be in that position or, you know, that, that, that can all be incorporated in Yeah. Mark: or can I just forgive myself because my mom died? Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: and it was, it was pretty damned intense, and I just went back to the chemical crutch that was most convenient for me, but my mom's only gonna die once, so it's not like I'm creating excuses to keep doing this again and again. This was a really serious, intense experience for me, and, and I, I fell back on my habits. There's no shame there. Yucca: Mm. Mark: you know, there's, there's, there's no, there's no guilt trip and, you know, self-flagellation thing that's necessary there. There's just understanding. Okay, that's why I did that. Now tomorrow, I'm not gonna do that again. Yucca: Yeah. Or for the rest of the evening. Mark: Sure, Yucca: Right. You know, that's just, that's one that that could be a little bit tricky when it, whenever it's something like that, like, oh, well, I'll just do it for the rest of the day. , right? When you're trying to change dietary habits or substance habits, well, it's like, well, I had one bite of the thing. I might as well, you know, I, I had that, Mark: Today's blown. I Yucca: Yeah, I might as well just order the pizza and while I'm at it, get the lava cake and I'll have that Coke too. Yeah, . So this one just, that's, just be careful about that cuz you know, you. getting back on the horse. You can always get back on the horses. Get back as soon as you can. Mark: Right, Yucca: But yeah. Mark: And and I think in the broader sense, it bears saying that our path. Really doesn't endorse the idea of self-punishment as the means to growth, right? You know, the, the guilt, the shame, the self-flagellation, all that stuff, none of that is beneficial. That's just really a nasty model for how people's behavior modifies. Yucca: That's how you get obedience. That's not how you get growth. Mark: Right, Yucca: Right. And even then you only get obedience when you're looking. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: E, exactly. So, yeah, and we're not about obedience. We're we're about you being you. And that's it. Yucca: Yeah, Mark: it. Right? Yucca: well, and, and happy. And part of, you know, this larger context of a, you know, healthy and joyous society, part of this incredible planet that against all odds exists at this moment in time. Mark: Right, right. Yeah. So all that said, this sort of big picture stuff, yes, you can do those less frequent practices you can also shake up your existing practice with something that'll shake it up and, and that is, I mean, really that is down to you what. what will shake it up for you? Will going to a dance club and dancing with other people around is, is that the big hurdle to get over? Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: Or is it cooking a meal and inviting people to come in and all of them can experience your cooking? It's like, there, there are lots and lots of different ways that it can be. Yucca: or letting yourself do something that is just about you, right? That yes, you are going to get that massage or you are just gonna hang out and. Turn everything off and be by yourself for a couple of hours, or go on that hike or whatever it is that for you is the thing. Mark: right. Or broaching that subject with your partner about that thing that you want sexually that you've never talked about, right? Because it's about owning more of yourself, right? It's like, this is me. I'm okay with me, I'm gonna present me to the dearest person in my world and we'll see what happens. I just think that if your, if your orientation is towards growing and getting bigger and more complex and more interesting and more creative throughout the course of your life, then these things will occur to you. There are. of other possibilities that Yucca and I have not described in this podcast that would work perfectly for shaking up your practice and, you know, bringing that sense of adventure into your life a little more. But the point is to be willing to do it and it takes some gut. So maybe you have to sit for a while in your personal practice. Okay, here I am. I'm sitting with the candles and I'm thinking, well, what I would really like is this. And then there's this cascade in your mind of, oh, but I can't have that because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, some of those things may be true, but you can still assert what you want in the. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: right? You can still do unexpected, you know, go on a road trip. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: It's like, okay, you know, you've been married for 25 years and the kids are all grown and stuff, and it's like, you know what? I want a vacation by myself. And it's knowing insult to you. It's not anything about you, it's just I want to go on a road trip. Get on the road, go do that, and maybe it's only two, three days long. It doesn't have to be, you know, this huge production, but just getting yourself out and feeling like, wow, here I am behind the wheel and I can go anywhere I want. And it's not a problem for anybody else. I can just go there. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: and when I'm tired of driving I can stop and I can find a motel or a campsite. That's a great feeling. It's an incredible feeling. It's very freeing and think there are a lot of people out there that could really do with that kind of experience. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Hmm. Well, there's a lot more things to brainstorm, but I think that's a good place for us to pause and, and leave it to all of you to brainstorm what sort of things those might be for you and if that's what, where you're at with your practice, so, Mark: sure. For sure. More than anything else. I think, you know, the takeaway from this is a personal practice is a means to your personal growth. Yucca: mm-hmm. Mark: So have one, know, figure out, figure out something that feels like it feeds you in that way. And there's lots of materials out there. There's a bunch of stuff at atheopagan dot com about starting a practice. Ultimately it's down to you. It's down to what you want. And what we want for you is what is most engaging and actualizing and happiness, fomenting and all that. Cause that's how we roll. Yucca: Yep. And we'll be back next week with a holiday episode. Mark: Yes, a holiday episode. Woo-hoo. Hard to believe it's rolled around already, but Yucca: here we are. Mark: here we are. Alright, thank you so much, Yucca. Yucca: Thank you everybody.    

The issue of the food infrastructure is one that must receive more attention. The Colorado food system is closely following the California disaster as well.

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S3E24 TRANSCRIPT:----more----   Mark: Welcome back to the Wonder Science Based Paganism. I'm your host Mark. Yucca: And I'm the other one Yucca. Mark: Today, we are going to talk about something that is very central to pagan practice of all kinds. And that is trance. Yucca: Right. And this is something that we see in paganism. We see it in a lot of other religions as well. It seems to be a very like, a very important experience for. being in that space, having those transformations, when really important things are happening, there's often a trance state. Mark: Right. The attainment of altered states of consciousness is often something that is viewed as holy. In various religions or is viewed certainly as transformative or divinely inspired or or divinely provoked. There are a lot of different frameworks for understanding what this is, but there are so many examples all over the world of people using various different kinds of techniques in order to enter a trans state. Yucca: Right. And since we are non theist, we're not coming at it from a, from the divine perspective. So we're looking at it, we'll look at it from a more neuroscience perspective and the usefulness of it as well, because it really is very useful. Mark: right, right. The, and I guess the, where we need to start with that then is to talk about what it is. Yucca: Right, Mark: trance is kind of a. It's a general term that isn't used by many other religions, other than paganism to describe a particular neurological state. And you can get to that neurological state through a lot of different approaches. Repetitive motion is one of them listening to very dreamy kinds of music with beautiful harmonies in it can take you into that state. Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: Um, and it's the state that's characterized by being very much in the present. So you're not thinking about. Your list of things to do or about worrying about the future or any of that? You're very much in the present moment. Also with a very kind of emotional openness and a sense of focus, a sense of of experience that you're having. Yucca: Right. And, and I, a word that does get used in, in the common cultures, often in the zone, right. When someone talks about being in the Mark: That's exactly right. Another term that is used by people like sports, psychologists is flow. Yucca: zone, that's actually a trance state, right? Mark: When you, when you are in a flow state, you're very creative, you have access to your subconscious You're not distracted by thoughts of other times or other obligations. You're really in a, kind of a peak optimal state for for working with your own creativity and your own psychology. Right. Yucca: right. Mark: So there are other, oh, Yucca: Oh, I was gonna say, this is something that I see. Young children do very, very naturally. They get into a state like that. And it's something that later on, we don't tend to practice as much. We kind of train ourselves out of it, but I think that there's, there's something very instinctual about it, that humans. That we, we gravitate towards that. We really do that when given the opportunity to Mark: There's something about trans that is play. Yucca: mm-hmm Mark: Because it's creative. In, in many cases now, in, in the case of some religious traditions, trans states are very narrowly defined as only being allowed to be particular kinds of experiences. And so there isn't as much creativity associated with them. But we'll be talking later on about how to induce these trans states. But when you think about, Hildegard Von, BGAN having her, Amazing sort of visions of the Virgin, Mary and all these angels and saints and all that kind of stuff. That's very much a trans state. Now the odds are good that in her case she was probably epileptic and One of the, one of the characteristics of epilepsy is that people can go into a, kind of a phasic trans state, which can lead them into a very altered reality. Right? Oh disconnected from the current present physical circumstances and often unable to. Yucca: Hm. Mark: There are there are often when people go into a trans state, they, they, they are often in kind of a pre-verbal state and they really aren't able to summon language to address what they're experiencing or to communicate that with others. That can be a problem sometimes. I've, I've. There have been people that I've worked with at pagan festivals who have gone kind of way, way out there and are having a hard time taking care of themselves. They're kind of stumbling around the fire, not cuz they're drunk, but because they're really, really entranced. And there's a certain amount of danger associated with that. And so when I've tried to sort of steer them a little further away from the fire and. Check in with them and see how they're doing. In some cases, they simply can't summon words because those parts of their brain aren't what is Yucca: that's not the active part at the moment. Mark: That's right. It's not at the forefront. So let's, let's think for a minute about some examples of trans states that are used in various sorts of religious contexts throughout the world. And I should say that it's not just religious contexts that have trance or flow or the zone artists know this space really well. Yucca: yeah. Artists and writers Mark: As a writer. I know when I'm writing good stuff, I can feel that it's, it's just pouring out of me and I'm just typing as fast as I can to try to capture it. Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: Um, and it's, it should be said, this is a pleasurable experience. Trans feels good. It's associated with high levels of serotonin in the brain, and it's a, so it's a state that people tend to want to gravitate towards many people who are deeply religious, do their religious practices in order to reach that pleasurable trans state, which they may interpret as communing. Deities or with the entirety of the universe? All of those kinds of feelings. Yucca: So one of the religions that immediately pops into my mind when we talk about that is the SoFi, Mark: Mm-hmm Yucca: right? That's a that's probably the, the picture most people think of when they think of the SoFi is the whirling Dees. Right. And that they're doing that and getting into this shared trance state. Mark: Sure exactly. It's this very slow, steady, repetitive movement, which of course also kind of spins their their middle ear. So that there's this. This potential for dizziness, but it's sort of a managed dizziness. It's a learned technique that they use to take themselves into this very out there kind of space of communing with, with what they believe is their God. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And what's interesting to me is that this is such a beautiful and impactful kind of experience that people will actually pay money to go and watch Sufi spinning in place. Right? Yucca: Oh, I hadn't heard about that. There's a pretty big community in, in my area, but I hadn't heard of people go paying to watch that happen. Mark: there's at least one touring troop. Of of dervishes. Yeah, I I've seen them advertised. I haven't gone to actually see them do it, but I've, I've seen them advertised. In other cases we can think about the sort of intense altered states that come with. And of course, once again, in a pre-verbal kind of sense with people who fall into speaking in tongues or who who ki kind of lose control of their bodies and fall down through this incredibly intense trans like, experience happening in their brain. And. I mean, I'm, I'm not telling any secrets out of school here. We, we here don't believe in divinity. We don't believe in, in gods. And so when we look at that phenomenon, we don't see it as the Christian God reaching down and touching these people. And they're having this, sort of Transy spasmodic experience. We're seeing it as a, a psychological and neurological phenomenon. Yucca: Yeah. Which does not make it less valuable, just because we might have some understanding on what, how it's happening, why it's happening. It that's not less. To use the word magical, right. It's not magic in a Harry Potter sense, but it's magical in a, in a, in a meaningful wow, amazing kind of way. Mark: Right, right. Yeah. Because just because we understand how something works does not, as you say, make anything less wonderful about it. So we can understand, for example, that, that. The experience of love is very high levels of serotonin and oxytocin, right? Your body is like singing with these neurotransmitters, that connote connection and affect and focus and a bunch of other things too, like not being hungry and having a hard time sleeping and a lot of other things that go with that. Now does that mean that love isn't real? Well, of course not, of course not, but that's what, when you're, when you're experiencing being in love, that is what is happening in your brain. Yucca: Right. Or if we're watching the sunrise. Mark: Mm-hmm Yucca: Understanding in fact that in some ways to me makes it even more inspiring is to start to see those deeper connections to wow. Right. And when we start thinking about the neurotransmitters, thinking about, how many generations. How many millions of generations of mammals were there for using those same neurotransmitters. And then we were using them before we were even mammals for different purposes and all of that. Mark: Right. And, asking the big questions, like why did we evolve to have these states? I mean, we can understand why we have love because it draws us together for reproduction for caring in, in survival and caring for our offspring. Right. But. Why a sunrise, why a sunset, why the beauty of leaves blowing in wind? Why the Aurora Balis, why the shapes of clouds moving in the sky? All of these are things that can really inspire us and move us with the sheer beauty of the universe. And you have to ask the question, why did we evolve the capacity to feel that. Yucca: Yeah, Mark: It's a great question. I don't have any idea of the answer, but it's a super question, Yucca: right. Yeah. That's, that's a question to work on. Mark: But the good news is we do have this built into ourselves. We have this capacity for trance, this capacity to be transported by the moment and brought into a state of focus and clarity and a feeling of belonging and connection, all of those things. And one of the things that we as pagans are about is crafting the skills. Learning the skills to be able to create that state at will. And, and that is something that's kind of unique about the, the broad pagan umbrella. There are, there are other religious traditions which teach you to go into deep trans states. Zen Buddhism, for example, sitting Zen, looking at a blank wall. But they're very constrained in how they use that experience and how, the rituals around it are very, very strict, right? Whereas as pagans, we create a lot of our own rituals and so we can use this trans state for a lot of different purposes. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So why don't we talk a little bit about why then you would want to go into this, this trance state. Yucca: Yeah. the first thing is, at least from my perspective is you have a lot less in the way. When you're going into a state like this, you're setting aside the, the worrying about the rent for next week and the, this and the, that. And you're, you're kind of going to this, this deeper level where you're dealing with the, with the, your raw emotions and beliefs and feelings. Mark: Mm-hmm. mm-hmm . Yeah. And what's cool about that in my experience is that trans is an opportunity to kind of get in under the hood and tinker with those things. Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: We know now from research that our memories are not recordings. They are retellings of stories and they get edited and embellished and pieces get dropped all the time in the stories that we tell ourselves about our lives. So we have the capacity when in this very open emotionally malleable state to get in there and actually change some core assumptions that we have change our story or our, our uh, Yucca: or Mark: Conclusion our beliefs about an event that happened to us in our lives, right. That can help to bring us closure. It can help to bring us healing. It can help to instill greater self-esteem. It can help to bring us more confidence as we pursue our goals. It can do lots of really cool things like that. All in this kind of glowing present. Very pleasurable. Experience. So it's, it's, it's a way of doing it. It's an opportunity to do things that are good for you while also having an experience that isn't an ordeal that instead is something powerful and moving and and happy. Yucca: And it can be the real heart of a ritual. Right? A lot of times when we're setting up a ritual, a lot of the things that we're doing are to help get us to that state. Mark: yes. Yes. In the, in the atheopagan. Recommended ritual structure that I put in my Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: for example, the whole point of that is induction into a trans state doing stuff while in that trans state and then transitioning back out of it and back into a normal sense of reality. Right. So the arrival phase, you have things like grounding and you have things like sensory stimulation that brings you into the present moment in your body. And you have things like invocation of safety and security, so that you feel okay about opening yourself to the experience stuff like that. And then In the qualities phase, you invoke the, the various characteristics and emotions that you would like to be with you during these things, so that you feel like you have allies and ingredients to work with. And then in the main body of the ritual, which is the, the working or the deep play, that's when you're in the trance and now you can do this transformative work, right. Yucca: yeah, Mark: And then the other two phases are coming out the other side. So that, that it really is about a technology of trance ritual is, is in my experience, a technology of trance. Yucca: right. So why don't we talk a little bit about some of the hows, right? We've been talking a lot about the why. Mark: Okay. Okay. That sounds great.  Yucca: Yeah. Mark: there are so many ways to get there and the, there can vary a lot depending on which one you use. I don't want to, in any way, imply to people that all trans states are the same. They, they aren't, they aren't The kind of trans state that you have from dancing to incredibly rhythmic drumming, for example, or, electronic dance music, stuff like that is not the same thing as the kind of meditative trans state that you can enter while sitting quietly, smelling the scent of a little incense, calming yourself and opening yourself in that more gentle kind of way. But they're both trans states and they both present opportunities for growth and learning and, and joy. Yucca: Yeah. Well, Mark: So, oh, go Yucca: To share a technique for going into that kind of quiet sort of meditative trance state. One thing that, if you've never played with this before, that you can do is find whatever the situation is. You, you it could be quietly inside or sitting out, looking at the stars or the sunset or whatever, but sitting down, creating your space. And then, calm your breath, do your grounding and stare at something. Stare very, very intently at it. And then start to relax your eyes. And if you can blur your vision a little bit, just go ahead and blur that and bring it back. And just bring, feel like you're bringing that blurred relaxation back into your, back through your eyes, into your head and down through your body as you're staring and letting that focus shift, right. Just playing with that focus in your eyes and that seeing that as your body. And for me practicing that, that's something that can get me into a trance state very, very quickly. Is that staring. Relaxation. Mark: great. Yeah, that's, that's a very effective way. One thing to be aware of when you do that kind of a practice, is that the thing that you're looking at may appear to disappear? Because of the holes in your retina, where your optic nerve is detached. When you really calm down your eyes, stop vibrating, back and forth, which is what they do in order to adjust for that hole in your retinas so that they can collect data about what would otherwise be in the hole. Yucca: right. And all of that, you're getting your depth perception. You're getting all kinds of information from those tiny, tiny little movements. Yeah. Mark: Right. So, if you are calming yourself and staring at something and it disappears, don't worry about it. That's there's there, there are reasons for that. And it's okay. Yucca: And if there's a little bit of color difference that happens too. Like you see some spots where like the color is a little bit like pink or, or blue or things like that. That's again, that's totally normal. Yeah. Mark: Right. We mentioned drumming drumming is either, either doing the drumming yourself or being in a place where there is, powerful drumming or very, very simple, steady heartbeat, kind of drumming, which can also be very transi in its own way. Those are, those are technologies that are as old as humanity. They probably go back to pre-human, predecessors.  Yucca: And the rush of water. That's another one too, that, that either the trickling for a fountain or the rush of the, the stream or the filling of the, the tub. Mark: mm-hmm, the sound of waves crashing on the ocean. Yucca: Yeah. Right. Mark: Or of wind in trees, all of those kind of white noise, Yucca: I, Mark: somewhat varying, not, not entirely the same all the time. They just, they kind of low you into this very nice sort of dazed, calm, Transy space. Yucca: suspect that they remind us on a very primal level of hearing our mother's blood inside the womb. Mark: That sounds very reasonable to me. Yucca: Right that rushing. Mark: Right. Yeah, that that's cous. The another way is to contemplate something that leaps and dances like fire staring into a fire is a very Transy activity. And it's a way to you can do that with a candle flame. You can do it with a campfire. Don't do it with a wildfire.  Yucca: Well, I, I mean, Mark: I mean, you Yucca: a safe distance yeah. Right. If, if you're, if you're in a safe situation and you're not being called upon to, be part of the effort in that moment yeah. Mark: So that's another and I, I go back to this a lot because I find this very Transy when, when wind is blowing through trees and leaves are kind of shaking and dancing as the bows move in the wind. To me, that's a very Transy experience. I, I just. I, I, I, I start to enter the trans experience, reflecting on Yucca: thinking about it. Mark: just, just thinking about all the math that goes into. All those motions, all those calculations, the, with the pressure and the, the friction coefficients and the angle of the leaves and all the different things, theoretically, you could actually calculate how this tree is going to move based on the wind that comes up against it. But in practical terms, it's impossible, Yucca: Yeah. You'd have to have all those initial conditions. Yeah. Mark: Right. So, I don't know. I wrote a poem once where I talked about wind and trees and mathematics as the language of God, it's, it's this, this in a Einsteinian sense, right? The, the language of the way the universe manifests. Yucca: Yeah. Right. Mark: So that's another, kind of way that we can end. Dancing lights. I mean, there, there are reasons why dance clubs have low light conditions with lots of, dancing around colored lights, Because it puts people into a trans state and in a trans state, they feel less inhibited, more comfortable, more safe and more able to express themselves. So, and it's very pleasurable and that's why they go, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: yeah. Yucca: Also the full moon, right. That's one hanging out and just watching that full moon. Mark: yeah. Watching the line of the Moonlight move across the floor is one that I really enjoy. Yeah. So, dancing, drumming, singing, singing in harmony with other people is a very trans activity, especially if you're doing kinds of music and harmonies Yucca: some of those chance can really get you, get you Mark: Really take you out there. There's a, there's a, a church in Southern France called in a, in a town called where they have a, a specific practice of doing these Catholic chant. Very simple Catholic chance. And people come to sing and have this experience at TA. And there are songbooks that you can buy with these Chan in them, and the chance are simply beautiful wonderful stuff to sing. So you know what your fun, what, what you may be realizing as we talk about this stuff, is that a lot of the things that people. To enjoy themselves or because it puts them in a trans state, Yucca: Right. Mark: right. An awful lot of things that we just like are things that we enjoy because they tend to lead us in that direction. And as pagans, we can then take advantage of that, not just to have a good time, which we are all in favor of. We are in favor of people having a good time. But you can also make some use of that in a ritual context. Yucca: Yeah. And like so many things that we talk about, there's this very. Intuitive instinctual component of it, but the practice can, can really help you to build in making it easier to slip into it, making it more effective. The practice element really is important. Mark: It is and using a focus or an alter, Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: um, is one way to kind of, what's the word I want to use? Kind of fast track that Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: Process, because if, if there's a particular place that you go in your house and a thing that you look at where you are accustomed to going into a trans state before it, whether it's to read to road cards or light candles and incense, and. Meditate or, or to place things for that are seasonal symbols to represent the time of the year or to put pictures of your ancestors so that they'll be remembered, whatever that is. The, the speed with which you will drop into that trans state. Really increases the more you practice in front of that focus. I, I find that when I first started my pagan practice, especially because I have ADHD and so focus and concentration are not exactly my strongest suit. And so my brain would be going all over the place and it was kind of hard to get into that trans state. But now all I have to do is step in front of my focus and light the candles and close my eyes and then open them to this rich display of symbols and items that, that are meaningful to me and tell me stories. Right. Yucca: mm-hmm Mark: I'm there. I'm I'm in the trance state and I'm ready to do some kind of inner work. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So this varies from person to person, there are people for whom like modern dance is the way that they get there, and that's great. It's good to know that about yourself. If you're just starting your practice. And you're just learning about how to work with trance, with yourself, try some different modalities. Think about what has been, what has been enjoyable for you in the past. Yucca: Mm-hmm Mark: And maybe for you, it's sitting down with some art supplies and a blank canvas and, going into that zone of creativity you, you can do. Paintings or sculptures or whatever it is that have a symbolic quality that can then help to work with your psychological nature as well. That's another, way that you can approach this. So, for those that are new to the practice, I really encourage people to experiment, try different kinds of stuff. Yucca: Right. And in that ex experimentation, trying different kinds of things and trying the same thing multiple times too, because the very first time we do things, sometimes they're re it's, it's really awkward. Right. Mark: Yes, that critic voice that we talk about erects itself in the back of your head and says, this is stupid and you're making a fool of yourself and yada yada, yada, yada. And after you have some practice with this. That voice doesn't have the kind of power that it used to. It just doesn't, it doesn't impact you the way that it used to. Which is good for you on all kinds of levels, because the self critic is a cruel voice. It's not good for us. And an ability to set that aside and say, no, I'm doing this now. Cuz it's good for me is one opportunity that we have to heal as people. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So what else do we have to talk about on trance? Yucca: It's like so many of the things in paganism that it's, it really is a about experiencing it. We, we find things to talk about on a weekly podcast, but really what we're doing is about. experience, how we feel our relationship and interaction with the world with ourselves. And it's just, it's a, we're a doing religion, right? We're an experience religion. Mark: That's right. That's right. And. Our, our experiences are our life, right? And so enriching those experiences and making them as powerful and as positive for ourselves as possible is central to what our paganism is about. Because we're not. Worshiping gods or making offerings to them, or, spirits or demons or any of that kind of stuff. What we're doing is we're working with our own psychology. And with that, of those that we share rituals with for the betterment of all. Yucca: Right. Mark: And so yes, practice try out different modalities, even little as, as you were saying, Yucca even little kids do this. Little kids will spin and spin and spin and spin and spin until they get dizzy and fall down because they want to be in an altered state. Yucca: Listen to them on their own. They'll they'll we didn't talk about this mantras, right? They'll come up with their own mantras and they'll repeat that over and over and over, I was watching my daughter play just was absolutely fascinated by a tree that had some SAP. And she was out there for, it had to be 30, 40 minutes just in just watching that SAP, looking at that SAP and just, I couldn't quite hear what she was saying, but she. Singing something to herself over and over, just in just super engrossed entranced. Right. And we just, we, when given the opportunity we do that, right. And of course there's different types of personalities. Some peop some personalities will do that more than others. Some personalities are, hyper-focusing like my personality, you were talking about, focus, being something you've cha that. is a little bit more challenging for you. For me, it's kind of the other way. It's hard to get myself to get out of whatever I'm focusing on. There's different personalities, but it's something that is kind of still in all of us to a certain degree. Mark: Yes. Yeah. And when you look at cultures all over the world, you see that the attainment of altered states of consciousness is something that humans just gravitate to everywhere. And whether it means that they have to build these soaring cathedrals with stained glass, windows, and burn incense and candles, and have, flickering low levels of light and, and Gregorian chant. Yucca: and out. Mark: Right. And, have Gregorian Chan singing and leaders telling people what they're supposed to do to get their trans experience, or whether it's as simple as, spinning on one foot, like the Sufi.  Yucca: Or wake up for Dawn Mark: mm-hmm Yucca: and just hang out with the Dawn. Mark: yeah, yeah. Especially at this time of year when the sunsets and sunrises are so long. Yeah. It's really, really a good time. Well, so as with so many things that we talk about here on the podcast, really encourage you to do this stuff. It's a, it's a kind of a strange thing to me. One of the things that I heard a lot when I first entered the pagan community is you have to read these 70 books. Some, some huge stack of you have to read this and this and this and this and this and this and this. And a lot of what I found was in those books was stuff that I don't really subscribe to now. To me, what really made the difference was having the experience, going to the rituals, sharing in those experiences, getting to know the people and then. Yucca: practice. Mark: Daily practice. Absolutely. And then starting to craft the rituals myself and starting to invite others, to join me in doing, rituals that, that felt meaningful and, and impactful. So, that is a very joyous joy. It's a, it's a really enjoyable path to travel. And if you're just getting started, I really encourage you to set forth, find out how you best fall into trance. And maybe you wanna learn to be a really good drummer, it'll, you'll, you'll be a, a super asset to the other pagans around you because you can help them to go into trance. And you will always have a means available of going into trance as long as you have something that you can tap on. Yucca: just be your. Right. If, if you have nothing else, it could be your, your belly or your thighs or or that beautiful drum that you hand painted and whatever it is. Yeah. Mark: I'm, I'm actually buying a drum this week. I'm excited about it. My, my frame drum, big round kind of flat frame drum disappeared at an event the event where I broke my arm back in 2017 and my friend whose truck it flew off the back of apparently has always said that he. Wanted to wanted to buy me another one, but he has never gotten around to it. So now I'm going to go buy it and he's going to pay me back for it. So I'm excited about having a frame drum again. That'll be really cool. Yucca: nice. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Hmm. Well, thank you, mark. This was a lovely and inspiring conversation. We're supposed to get some rain this afternoon and I think maybe I'll sneak away and see if I can trance out with the rain. Mark: Yeah, that sounds wonderful. Especially that wonderful blood warm rain that you get in the Southwest. It's so nice. Yucca: Yeah. yeah, Mark: Yeah. All right. All right. Thanks again so much Yucca. And we'll see you all next week    .

We will be discussing the mark of the beast and what the bible really says about it! Through this podcast series, we ask that you take off the glasses of preconceived notions and teachings and look at this through unfiltered eyes! --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/calvaryscompass/support

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com An Atheopagan Ritual Primer: https://atheopaganism.files.wordpress.com/2018/07/an-atheopagan-ritual-primer-v4.pdf S2E27 TRANSCRIPT: ----more---- Mark: Welcome Back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm your host Mark.  Yucca: And I'm Yucca.  Mark: Today. We're going to talk about sacred space. What it is, how to create it and how to, to build sacred space into your own home. Yucca: Exactly. And we'll also get in to a little bit, building that in, in shared spaces. Because we know that a lot of people are in situations where they share space. First of all, but might be with a roommate, a dorm mate, you know, parents, spouses, anything like that. And they may not be in a situation where they're one, their aesthetics, but also their beliefs are shared.  Mark: Right. And so, it becomes sort of a threading, the needle process of you know, how do you get your needs? While also accommodating the needs of the other people in your household. So we'll be talking about that some as well, but let's start with just what sacred space is because that's, it's a little hard to define. In my experience, sacred space is the environmental conditions that facilitate my moving into a ritual state of mind.  Yucca: Okay.  Mark: And that typically includes things like low lighting levels like candlelight aesthetically pleasing and metaphorically, symbolic objects and decor might include music that is facilitative for that. And personally, I, I like to live in sacred space. I, I decorate my room in a manner that is. It's kind of like a temple in that way. It has, you know, amazing sort of masks from all over the world on the walls and various, you know, pieces of art and symbolic objects and candle sticks and cauldrons and stuff like that. Yucca: Mm. Yeah. So I, I think I share your, your idea of sacred space as a space that can help move you into that ritual space. And that really just influences the way that we feel. It's something that I'm very aware of because one of my parents was an architect. So I grew up on job sites and building and all of those things. And so the shape of the space, the feeling of the space is, is this something always present and. The awareness of just what it feels like to walk into one room versus another room or one building versus another, or to step out, it really, really changes our moods and just our awareness of the world.  Mark: Yes. Yes. And I think this is something that we often don't pay much attention to. We just kind of slide on through our passage from space to space without really acknowledging how it's influencing our our psyche and our emotions. But. As we've said over and over again, a big element of being a science-based pagan is learning to pay attention and being aware of our environment. And that includes the built environment. It doesn't just include the natural environment. It includes the built environment. You know, we live in houses and apartments and, and, you know, various places.  Yucca: RVs. Yeah. Yeah.  Mark: And in some cases, tents.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Still we live in constructed spaces and our ability to make those spaces feel good to us is  Yucca: True.  Mark: something we have choices about. Most of us have choices about. And so over the years I have collected various pieces of artwork and Furniture items and so forth that speak to me of a particular aesthetic. And I deploy those in my room in a way that kind of augments the alter that's sort of the centerpiece of it, the focus And so at night I can put on some music and light some candles, and I'm really most of the way there into the ritual state before I even do any breathing exercises or visualization or any of that kind of stuff. Yucca: Yeah. So it sounds like you're, you're describing. Space that that you're stepping into. Well, sometimes some people are lucky enough to be in a position where they get to actually design and build the physical space. But most of us step into spaces that were built by somebody else for many different reasons, but we can then. Do things with those spaces, like creating the alter, changing the lighting maybe changing the color in the room may not be a possibility in terms of wall painting, but, Mark: but it might be  Yucca: but it might be right. You might be able to paint the wall or put a temporary wallpaper up or. Color of the bedsheets. Right. All of those things have a huge influence on getting you into that space or whatever the space is that you're designing for.  Mark: Yes. And you can be playful about it. For example, I like to hang a couple of led crystals in my window because when the afternoon sun comes in, suddenly I have little dancing, rainbows all over my room and it's cool. You know, it's just a little, a little trick of physics that that is pleasing to me and has a magical sort of quality. Yucca: We we actually got those for the kids for solstice, just passed the summer solstice. And the next morning they came out, I have it in the east window and the light and it was just all over the house. And both of them came out with the cute little groggy eyes. Wow. And then went around, try to touch it, the opening, their mouth to eat them. And so every morning it's an excitement of coming out and saying like, oh, you know, where are the rainbows? Are they on mom? And dad's head while they're trying to drink their morning tea. So we've got those same things and that they're just sudden catchers is another word for them. They're just amazing.  Mark: Yeah. And I mean, there are so many things that we can do. We, we talk about ritual technologies and, you know, a lot of those ritual technologies are active things that we can do when we're in the process of designing or. Or conducting the ritual things like chanting and singing and drumming and stuff like that. But there are also these sort of passive things we can do. In terms of, you know, lighting candles or putting on some particular kind of music. That's very evocative for us burning incense or herbs that creates a particular scent that takes us into a deeper more present. Kind of space.  Yucca: Hm.  Mark: And what I find is that because I pay attention to shaping the built environment around me, my, my house home and my room become more of a sanctuary to me. More of a place where I feel held and safe and in my power than I would otherwise. Yucca: so for you, do you bring in plants and living things as well? Is that something that really helps you get in that, into that space? Or is that something at a different part of the house?  Mark: Yes, we have a lot of plants. Noumea particularly has a whole lot of plants. I have two here in my room. A spider plant, which has little babies kind of dangling down from it that runs down the side of my focus. And then a , sort of a. Broad leaf looks a little like an Ivy, but it's not Ivy. And yeah,  Yucca: To both low light tolerant.  Mark: Yes. And very helpful. It's helpful to have living things, you know, as a part of that, that structure. I know that for some people their, their magical aesthetic isn't necessarily as intersected with the natural world as mine is. You know, if you look on my focus, you find pine cones and seashells and sea urchins and lots of natural rocks, of course, bones, feathers lots of natural things because they all remind me of just how incredible it is out there. Yucca: Hmm.  Mark: So, how about you? Yucca? What, what are your approaches to creating a sacred space within the home? Yucca: Yeah. So yeah, it depends on. Which space. So this is something that I'm very, very intentional about before moving into a new space. And we've just been moving finally, completely moving into what we plan to be a, you know, our forever home and see the Pope for that. So, No we're not, we have a lot more freedom in terms of changing things than we've ever had as renters before. But I really sit down and plan out the spaces and think about the flow of the spaces and how people would be moving from room to room and what are the feelings that we really want to have in those spaces. And  Mark: right. Yucca: for me, Those most kind of sacred moments. There are small daily ones, and so I want to create a space in each of those places that set aside for that, but kind of the big moments, the holidays throughout the year, things like that usually are actually going to be outside. So I don't make a. A major house focus or alter, but I have little ones throughout the house. So the bathroom space is one that's really important. The bathroom is a really big one actually, because that's where I think a lot of the refocusing happens. That's where a lot of that's the, for most people, that's the first place we go in the morning and it's the last place we go in the night before. Right. So th that's the start and the end of our days. So the, the actual shape of the room is very important, but how the lights coming in through the window and. Bringing little items, little rocks, or like you were saying, shells, bones, those sorts of things. And then the kitchen is the other really big one. And that's where our plants are. Our kitchen is just full of plants and greenery. The bedrooms are just for sleeping. That's it? I mean, the bedrooms just basically bed, nothing else. I mean, that's the only room in the house where I don't have plants just to have beds and sleeping people. So. And then, and then also the spot in the morning to drink the coffee or tea. I gave up coffee, but my, my little morning tea drink. So Yeah. Mark: Nice. Nice. Yeah. I've moved recently also. And so I'm in a new place and that was why I was thinking about this subject recently, you know, the, the, the creation of sacred space and why, why I felt so. Sort of disconnected and disoriented while all of my things were in boxes and why it was so important to me to, to create a space in my room as soon as I could after moving. So. I'm still in the midst of making decisions about the rest of the house.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Nehemiah and I are, are kind of working out what the living room is going to be like. And it's mostly there, but we have a sort of blank space that we know is going to be an altar ish space, but we don't really know what that's going to look like. So. And, you know, we have we have a handfasting broom with dozens of ribbons tied around it. That we're going to Mount over the back door. It's a sliding glass door, so we'll Mount it over that and it'll be visible there. But yeah, other than that really haven't thought it out very much yet. And so there's. You know, over the next couple of weeks, I'm sure we'll put that together, but it's not, not quite there yet. Yucca: So are you more of a. Live in this space, kind of feel it out for a while or  Mark: Well not.  Yucca: ahead of time. I mean, because there's so many different strategies, depending on the person of like, how to deal with that.  Mark: Yes. That's true. Well, this is a small space and. So like places like the kitchen, there's not really, I mean, there aren't even windows in the kitchen because it's double pane glass and that just takes up more room in fitness so that the sills are only about two inches wide. So there's very little in the way of locations where we could put things that would create. That would tie in with that theme happening throughout the house. But that said there is this it's, it's generally an open plan townhouse with only the bedrooms and the bathroom being kind of closed off. So. You know, the art on the walls makes a big difference. The the, what we finally decide is going to live on the dining area table in terms of visibility. So there's a lot of, a lot of things to think about little things to think about. And I haven't thought about them all yet.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Our big challenge right now is that we have several large glass fronted cabinets with glass shelves in them that we use for displaying cool stuff. We call it the museum and we have not yet put all the cool stuff into the shelving units yet. So that that's kind of a bit. Task that's ahead of us.  Yucca: Hmm.  Mark: And that will inevitably involve making decisions about which cool stuff gets in and which cool stuff doesn't make it and all that.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: So, but my, my living spaces have always been kind of female as, you know, welcome to the museum of natural history. So,  Yucca: Sounds so much fun.  Mark: Yeah. Oh God, we have such cool stuff. I have a whale vertebrae whole bunch of different kinds of cool fossils. Just cool stuff. Yucca: Mm, before I forgot to mention the books, we have a lot of books. That's the thing that's always been the hardest when moving is just boxes and boxes of books. And. We can't bear to we've, we've gotten rid of them as we've moved from place to place. And yet there always are more than when we started when we moved. So Yeah. Mark: I think that's particularly hard when you have small children, because if they're, if there's a book that you really value, you want to be able to share it with them as they get older. We have, we had 37 boxes of books, 37 banker's boxes of books  Yucca: That's a lot.  Mark: in our storage unit. We went through and mercilessly called and now we have 26. Boxes of books, but it's still 26 boxes of books and we just can't bear to give any of it away, but it lives in a storage shelf, storage unit. It's not like we have any access to any of it. There may be three shelves of books here. And you know, they're mostly sort of coffee table style books of physical anthropology and cave paintings.   Like that, you know, Yucca: well, we have a wall that I am. And fantasizing about one day building a ceiling to floor bookshelf up against, and actually making the bookshelves the same size as the books themselves. most of the time with the art book shelves, there'll be several inches between the top of the bookshelf and the books, and that's where the cat goes, but that's where absolutely everything else ends up going to, and then it's just completely stuffed with non books in the bookshelf. So I want to make them fit perfectly because trim sizes are pretty standard. You can get, you know, all the books that are textbook size and all the books that are. Mass market paperback and all of those. So that's the dream, but that takes a lot of that's a lot of time. So working on the, all the other things of daily life and work and raising families and all of that. So there's, there's always a prioritization when creating space is. about what.  Can I do now? And what's going to make the biggest influence in, in my life and my practice right now.  Mark: right. Yucca: Also what's seasonally appropriate both in the life season, but the seasons of the, of the year as well.  Mark: Yes. Yes. Yeah. And I think, you know, people generally the earliest decisions that they make when they enter a new space are strictly logistical decisions. You know, how's the kitchen going to work, that kind of stuff. The, Yucca: I don't want to move that couch upstairs.  Mark: oh, Yucca: I don't want to try and go up those stairs or, you know, choices like that. Right.  Mark: Those, those kinds of decisions where it's like, you know, where is the couch going to live? You know, all, all that kind of stuff. But for us a second layer then is this aesthetic piece in which we, so some sacredness into the, the layout of the house And it adds a lot of richness. It really does. There is something that is deeply what's the word I'm looking for? Comforting or content full? I don't think that's a word about. You know, being in a space that feels as though kind of the essence of my spirituality, suffuses it. The objects that I see are my friends in a way, if they, they it's almost as if they have personalities, because all of them have stories to tell about where I got them and where they come from. And The sorts of rituals that I've done with them and all of that sort of stuff. Yucca: Yeah. Well, we've been doing a lot of examples of, of our own lives which makes sense of where both of us have been for the past few weeks. But why don't we talk about some ideas or examples for situations in which you don't have a partner on board with you for this or you, you don't have a whole house or something like that.  Mark: Well, I think if you don't have a, if you have a partner and the partner's not on board with you sacred icing your whole space, I would hope that at the least you could negotiate for a space where you can build a focus or alter to experience your own spirituality. I mean, I think that that's a very problematic issue. If someone refuses to allow you to do something like that, that's denying a very essential part of you. And it doesn't bode well, in my opinion But beyond that beyond, you know, a simple space for for an altar or focus I think, you know, you don't have to completely sort of goth up here your, your space in order for there to be. A sense of meaning folded into the way that it's decorated. I was talking a second ago about how the objects in my room have story fees. Well, everybody has objects that have stories, right? If there are stories that are about your relationship or about your, your ancestry or about your fondness for a particular place in nature. If those objects can have a place out in the living space, then you'll feel more like you have a space in the living space. Those, those kinds of things are very helpful. Yucca: Okay.  Yeah. I think as non theist pagans there's a slight advantage that we have sometimes with sharing space. Some of the theist pagans might have, because although there are some non theist pagans who do enjoy the symbology and the metaphor of deities and just don't literally believe in them. Most of the time we aren't putting up statues of pagan gods and things like that, that might stand out immediately to a mother-in-law or a. Very conservative roommate or something like that, where the, the, the symbols that might be important to us might be that dried sunflower, or might be the bone or the seashell or the bottle of pretty river rocks or whatever it is.  Mark: Sure feathers, you know, stuff like that.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Yeah. I, I really agree with that. I, I think that, and, and to be fair, the, the roommate or housemate doesn't need to know what that object means to you. You don't have to communicate that if you don't want to, you can just say I'd like this to be out in the living space. And you know, presumably they are reasonable and you can negotiate with them around, you know, what is out in the living space and what is not. And and you just go from there and, you know, they may. You know, they, they don't have to know that this beautiful rock was found when you were on a mushroom trip. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: They you know, what it reminds you of isn't important. It's, it's just the fact that it's there in your space. So, yeah, I think that that's real. That really is an advantage because certainly some of the symbology of pagan gods can be Can make people that aren't pagans uncomfortable, especially because they tend to have a lot of nudity and in our culture, you know, which has so much body shaming and so much just stuff around the human body. Nudity is a no-no. You can't do that. So. Yucca: Yeah. And sometimes nudity a long with being part goat or part something else or, yeah. but just statically know. I love it. I love a lot of the aesthetics of, of some of those deities and statutes and hope that right. I have some man with the leaves and the beer and, and all of that. And in my own home, although I don't, again, believe that there's actually a guy walking around who is the embodiment of the forest or any of that. It's beautiful. It reminds me of some of my ancestry. But that certainly was not up in my dorm  Mark: Okay. Yucca: in undergrad. Right. That was not a, it in a dorm room situation. That's been years since I've been in one, but I had my little box and I opened up my box and it had everything decorated. So it was like a, it wasn't quite a shoe box. I don't really know where I'd even found it, but it, it, it just like opened up and there was the base and then the lid to it that created this kind of stage. And I had it open when I, when would want to be in my space. And then I closed it and it was private and very safe though.  Mark: Hm. Yucca: then for anything that I wanted really overt symbols, and then everything else was like, we've been talking about the, the colors with the dried flowers or things like that, that matched with what was happening with the season or what we found outside or any of that.  Mark: Right, right. Yeah. And I, I think that tuning. The degree of overtness of your symbolic placements is really just a matter, you know, of your particular situation. And you know, hopefully, hopefully you don't have deep philosophical divisions with the people that you live with, but some people do and. You know, it's just, it's a matter of asserting your, your own entitlement to commonly shared spaces. Common space is really what we're talking about here. If you have a room of your own, you should be able to do whatever you want with it. But in common spaces, the decoration can be kind of up for grabs and you just assert yourself and say, Hey, you know, I'd like this rock to be there. Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: So, was going to recommend that along the course of kind of thinking about how to create sacred space. People might want to go to the atheopagan and some.org blog and go to the resources tab and download the ritual. Because the ritual primmer talks about a lot of different ritual technologies, ways to help, to induce that. Very present liminal ritual state everything from stained glass to candle light, to incense, to, you know, just lots of different approaches. And so that might be a useful guide for people helping to. Make decisions about decorating their spaces. Yucca: Yeah, I'll go ahead and put a link in the show notes to that fender. One wants to go ahead and click on that. Yeah. So I hope that your space continues to unfold and that you have wonderful sacred spaces that, that grow out of that. And yeah,  Mark: Thank you. And and likewise, as you move into your new, your new home that's very exciting and I know you have a lot of, kind of major logistical things that have to be in place for that all to happen. But of course the, the mytho poetic layer is really important, too.  Yucca: we're, we're almost there. We're so close. You know, just a couple of minor things like electricity, but you know, rest of it's there. yeah.  Mark: Oh, well, that's good. Yucca: So, but this has been great, mark. Thank you.  Mark: Yeah. It's always great to talk with you Yucca. See you next week.

Imagine yourself standing smack in the middle of a busy city. You'd get dizzy just by looking at how fast people go about their daily lives. Everyone is so hyperactive and absorbed in getting things done. Amid all the chaos, we forget to take a pause, be still and breathe.  Remember, we can only evolve into our best selves if we take a moment and be present. And no one knows this more than the ultimate warrior, Mark Divine. He joins us in this episode to share his experiences in the military and how meditation helped him develop inner strength. Mark also teaches us how to use positive internal dialogue in visualising and attracting victory.  If you want to know more about the benefits of meditation through the experience of an ultimate warrior, then this episode is for you.   Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health program, all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/. You can also join their free live webinar on epigenetics.   Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year's time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler? ​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, goals, and lifestyle?  Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Health Optimisation and Life Coaching If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com, we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you. If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity, or want to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health, and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless. For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes, chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   Lisa's Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, an NAD+ precursor Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time. What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that can boost the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements of the highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today. Support Your Healthy Ageing We offer powerful, third party tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today. Shop now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 Capsules Quality You Can Trust — NMN Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting edge science) combats the effects of aging while designed to boost NAD+ levels. Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode:  Find out Mark's experience with meditation and how this made him into an ultimate warrior. Discover how a positive internal dialogue can train your brain to be focused. Know about recapitulation and how it can help in dealing with traumas.   Episode Highlights [05:34] Mark's Background Mark's experiences with his father forged his mental toughness and resilience. This laid the foundation for him to be an ultimate warrior. He grew up boating, hiking, and running trails through the mountains. Athletics was his escape, but he wasn't able to think about his future.  When Mark left college, he was fortunate enough to get a job in a big accounting firm; this allowed him to go to a top business school.  Despite school and work, Mark was determined to continue his athletic career. He then became interested in Seido karate. Meditation made him realise that he wasn't following his true path.  [15:13] Becoming an Ultimate Warrior Mark came across a Navy recruitment centre, saw their poster, and applied to be a SEAL. Mark graduated with his entire boat crew. He was number 1 in his class.   Mark credits this achievement to meditation training and the team building activities that compelled you to tame your ego. [19:59] The Importance of Meditation and Yoga Mark meditated and trained in yoga every day in the war zone. He felt stronger and more confident.  Yoga is the oldest science of mental and personal development.  Mark learned that training one's physical, mental, emotional, intuitional, and spiritual aspects mean you can access more of yourself and your potential. Yoga, in a sense, is integration; it is coming back to who we are and being whole.  Listen to the full episode to learn how Mark got into yoga and how this contributed to him becoming an ultimate warrior. [26:33] The Importance of Emotional Strength In SEAL training, most of those who quit were physically strong but lacked the emotional strength to handle extreme moments of crisis and doubt. The person subconsciously created the injury to quit.  Mark tried to be flexible and didn't let anything bother him during SEAL training.  Mark trains SEALs by teaching the Big Four: box breathing, positive internal dialogue, visualisation, and micro-goals.  [35:19] Examining Your Internal Dialogue Meditation is a critical part of examining one's internal dialogue.  How you talk to yourself has an incredible impact on your energy and motivation.  The term 'feeding the fear wolf' means to allow negative dialogue, imagery, and emotions to control and weaken you.  Positive thoughts, or ‘feeding the courage wolf', creates a higher vibration, bringing in more energy and access to creativity.  Controlling your breathing and adding a positive mantra can be very transformative; it helps you develop concentration and increase productivity.  [41:33] Imagining Victory Our belief systems are made out of statements that may or may not be true.  Pay attention to your thoughts and make them positive. Know that you are competent.  Although you may not feel it yet, continue meditating to get rid of that negative side.   When you understand your capabilities, you can project them into the future and have an image of your success.  When positive thoughts overcome negative ones, you can see your true self more clearly, and powerful thoughts start to spread.  [46:10] The Zen Process Meditation is challenging, especially for active people. We have to disconnect from various distractions and be still.  You can't evolve if you are constantly active; the only way to go inward is to slow down and be quiet.  The first step in meditation practice is box breathing. It releases stress and brings brain-body balance.  In the second step, the box pattern turns into concentration practice. The mantra is also added to train concentration and attention.  The third step allows you to put less energy into concentration and observe yourself from a witness perspective.  [53:00] The Importance of Doing Emotional Work Doing emotional work is the foundation of meditation.  Without this, you don't get the full benefits of meditation. Meditation requires patience.  The process is different for everyone.  [55:44] Going into the Witness Perspective In this part of the process, you empty your mind and allow any thought streams to come in. You experience a metacognitive split here.  You see the thoughts that come up from a perspective that's separate from them.  Through this, you realise you're not your thoughts and emotions. And so, you have the power to change your story. When you visualise from the witness perspective, you see what your spirit wants you to see. You realise your true purpose.  If you do this every day, you attract the future that's right for you, and you feel connected to the world. Through this, you eventually gain enlightenment. [01:02:43] How Meditation Can Help Athletes Meditation supports total health. Through it, you'll become more healthy, strong, and motivated. Awakened athletes and warriors who serve the world can change it. Athletes can do so because they are emotionally balanced. [01:05:25] What Is Recapitulation? Recapitulation is where we use imagery to go back into our past, relive traumatic events, recontextualise them, and forgive.  It is to see yourself forgiving your younger self and changing the image and energy associated with your traumas.  Awareness and identification of traumatic events is the first step to the recapitulation.  Recapitulation can be used to go back and overcome big traumas and to make sure you are not dragging past regrets.  Recapitulation then becomes a daily practice of letting go of regrets and resentments. Listen to the full episode and hear some examples of this!  [01:18:28] How to Be a Good Leader Show up as the best version of yourself. Be humble, authentic, trustworthy, courageous, and respectful.  It takes time to develop those qualities and work on them with your team.  Listen to the full episode to know how Mark does leadership training in his programs!   Resources Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron!  Harness the power of NAD and NMN for anti-aging and longevity with NMN Bio.  Listen to other Pushing the Limits episodes: #183: Sirtuins and NAD Supplements for Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova #189: Understanding Autophagy and Increasing Your Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova #199: Episode with Dr Don Wood Connect with Mark: Website | Instagram  The Unbeatable Mind Podcast with Mark Divine Bedros Keulian on Learning How to “Man Up” How to Deal with Trauma with Dr Don Wood Check out these books by Mark Divine!  Staring Down the Wolf  Unbeatable Mind  8 Weeks to SEALFIT The Way of the SEAL  KOKORO Yoga Autobiography of a Yogi by Paramahansa Yogananda 2021 Unbeatable Challenge   7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode ‘It was about physical, it was about mental, it was about emotional, it was about intuitional and spiritual aspects of our being. In that, I learned that if you train those together, then you will integrate, you'll become whole again.' ‘Human beings have not learned to be whole, and they don't recognise that we're all interconnected. And every one of our thoughts, every one of our emotions, every one of our actions has an implication or impact on the whole.' ‘How you talk to yourself has an incredible impact on your energy and your motivation. Literally, we use the terminology “feeding the courage wolf” versus “feeding the fear wolf.' ‘Understanding your capability as a human being, the potential that you have, the power that we have, you can then project that into the future and say, “What does victory look like for me?”' ‘I think that there's two reasons we're on this planet. One is to evolve to become the best version, highest and best version of yourself in this lifetime. The second is to align with our calling or our purpose.' ‘Ultimately, we create our own reality. It's all basically, it's all experienced with [the] mind. So that's powerful.' ‘You can do anything, one at a time.'   About Mark Mark Divine grew up in Upstate New York. He has a degree in economics from Colgate University and an MBA from NYU. He is a New York Times best-selling author, leadership expert, entrepreneur, motivational speaker.  Mark is also a retired U.S. Navy SEAL Commander. He spent nine years on active duty and 11 as a Reserve. With 20 years in service, he served in over 45 countries. During his time in the military, Mark created a nationwide mentoring program for SEAL trainees. Because of his success, he decided to start SEALFIT. This fitness company aims to prepare civilians for the physical and emotional demands of a SEAL-like lifestyle.  Mark knows the value of emotional strength in transforming lives. With this in mind, he published Unbeatable Mind in 2011, which includes an at-home study program. Mark also has several other entrepreneurial endeavours and books in his name. He's also the host of the Unbeatable Mind podcast. With all these ventures, Mark's ultimate aim is to create more resources to improve the lives of everyone he meets.  If you want to know more about Mark and his work, check out his website and Instagram.     Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can be motivated to be their real selves through meditation. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript Of The Podcast Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential. With your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: Well, hey everyone, Lisa Tamati here. Fantastic to have you back at Pushing the Limits this week. Now I have a wonderful man who I've followed for a number of years. He's one of my heroes, I was a little bit of a fangirl in this interview I have to admit. But it was pretty crazy. I have Commander Mark Divine on the show. Mark is an ex-Navy SEAL. He was a Commander in the Navy Seal. He was there for 20 years, and he was a fantastic leader. He was deployed in over 45 countries around the world. He also trains, trains a lot of the SEALs who are going into BUD/S training. He was number one on his course when he went through BUD/S, and that's saying something. That's nine months of hell on earth, so if you get through that, you've got to be pretty cool, and to be number one in the end of the whole 190 that went on, that's pretty amazing.  He's the author of a number of books: Staring Down the Wolf, Unbeatable Mind, and SEALFIT, and runs a number of multi-million dollar companies. As a leadership consultant, he trains, not only does he train the military, he helps people prepare for SEAL training. He also now runs through his innovative SEALFIT and Unbeatable Mind training systems. Kokoro crucible is one of his programs. He shares the same secrets with entrepreneurs, executives, and teams through his book and through his book, and through his speaking, and through his award-winning podcast. He has his own, and I have the privilege of being on that one shortly. He runs world-renowned leadership and team events. Wonderful man to talk to, someone that I really, really look up to and respect. His discipline that he brings to everything that he does is quite amazing. So I hope you enjoy the show. Before we go, I just want to remind you to check out our epigenetics program, if you haven't already. Head over to lisatamati.com and hit the work with us button, and find out about our Peak Epigenetics program. This is all about understanding your genetics, and how to optimise them for your best performance. So everything from food, to exercise, what types of exercise to do, what times of the day you should be training, what times of the day you should be eating, and how often. What type of diet is right for you, right down to the nitty gritty. You know, eat almonds, don't eat cashew nuts, right specific to your genetics, so to speak. It also looks at your whole mood and behavior, what makes you tick, why do you think the way you do, what areas you may have problems with, your predispositions.  That's not to be all deterministic, and negative, that's all to be like this is what you're dealing with, and this is how we can hit things off at the pass. This is a really life-changing program, and we're really proud to bring it to you. We've been doing it for a number of years now. We've taken hundreds of people through this program, and we work with corporate teams. So if you're out there and you have a corporate team that might be interested in doing either this or our boost camp program, which is all about upgrading and learning all about how to manage stress, how to reduce the effects of stress, and be more resilient and bring a higher performance to your game, then please reach out to us. Go over to lisatamati.com. and check out all the programs that we have here.  Just a reminder too, I have a new book out called Relentless: How a Mother and Daughter Defied the Odds. If you've listened to this podcast for a while, you would hear me harp on about my amazing mum and the journey that we've been on back from a massive aneurysm that left her at the age of 74 with hardly any higher function, and a prognosis that said she would never ever do anything again. And they were very, very wrong. So I want to share this book, I want to share the story, because it's a very empowering story. So if you haven't read the book Relentless, I really encourage you to go and do that. I'm really keen to get this out there because this will empower and change lives, and already has, so make sure you read Relentless. Right, over to the show with Commander Mark Divine. Hi everyone, Lisa Tamati here. I'm super, super excited. I'm jumping out of my skin, I can't sit still. I have one of my great heroes that I've followed for such a long time, so I'm a little bit, being a bit of a fangirl right now. But I'm sure I'll calm down in a minute or two. Commander Mark Divine is with us. He has such a huge history. You are known, really, as the warrior man, Unbeatable Mind, SEALFIT. You've done a heck of a lot in your life. Mark, it's just, I can't wait to share some of your insights, because what you do and what you've done is just absolutely amazing. So, welcome to Pushing the Limits. Can you give us a little bit of background, Mark, on where you come from and what you've done and how you've, just to give us a little bit of, because you, obviously you've been in the SEALs, you're a commander in the SEALs, you're a trained SEAL. So let's start there. Let you come to it. Mark Divine: Oh, my God, where to start? Lisa: Maybe childhood. Mark: I was born at a very young age in a very small town in upstate New York, a province of the United States. I'll try to keep this short because sometimes I have a few run-on sentences. Go like 40 minutes, right? We don't want that to happen. That's when we have a good time. So yeah, I was a pretty normal kid growing up, running around the woods of upstate New York, crazy family, lots of alcohol and anger. The belt would come out pretty much every other night. My brother and I would literally just provoke my father just to do it, because we stopped taking him seriously after a while. In that regard, I feel pretty fortunate that my young spirit was like, ‘You can't break me'. I realise now that we all choose our parents, let's just say, from a spiritual perspective, I certainly believe that. For certain experiences, and for a while I played the victim, woe is me.  But now I look back and thank God, that really forged my mental toughness and resiliency. I had to unpack some crap from that, obviously, but it made me a Navy SEAL warrior, right? When I went through Navy SEAL training, you could not hurt me, because nothing was compared to my dad. Anyway, so that's a little aside. Upstate New York had a really— it's beautiful. I've been to your country in New Zealand. It's just absolutely gorgeous. I feel the same way about America in certain places, the much bigger. New York is one of those areas that, 6 million acres of unfettered, protected land in northern New York called the Adirondack Mountains, and that was my playground. And our summer home was on the west shore of a lake called Lake Placid where the Olympics were, you're probably familiar with that.  Lisa: Yeah.  Mark: There was no road access to my house. There was no TV, no internet. Still, there's finally internet after but no TV, and we would have to take a boat to get there. And so I grew up with boats and I grew up hiking in the Adirondacks and a lot of time alone in the wilderness, which is one of the reasons I became kind of an endurance athlete. I know you're an endurance lady. Because I was comfortable, being alone. I was comfortable running the trails in the mountains, and I used to have a friend, we would run up Whiteface Mountain, which is at the base or the foot of Lake Placid. Not a huge mountain, it's 4,000 feet, but you know it took a couple hours. If you're going to hike up there it takes a few hours. For us to run up there, took us 45 minutes. People used to think we were crazy. When we got to the top we would wrap our ankles and our knees and we would play tag on the way down. The trails are steep and just rocks and ruts and roots. It's amazing we didn't kill ourselves.  So that was my like early childhood upbringing, nature being in the woods and in the water were my solace away from the family dynamics. That led me to be a competitive athlete in high school, 12 varsity letters and then into college, I was recruited for swimming and I became a competitive rower. And then I started triathlon. So, I was an athlete, but the athletics really was my escape and kind of my grounding rod, like it is for so many athletes, right? When I— then I wasn't sure what was going to happen. I didn't really spend a lot of time in my youth thinking about my future, I kind of accepted a lot of the stories for my family that I was going to go back and be part of the family business. That business was really the place that Divines go, you know, we don't go into the military, we don't go into academia, we don't do those things. So anyways, it's as your listeners are hearing this, they're probably like, ‘Yep, check.' Lisa: They may have done that. Mark: That's the norm, right? That's not, I wasn't off, but it's certainly not what I teach today, right? Because, right, I think if we're— if we don't follow our passion and find our calling in life, then we're going to have discomfort later on, and discomfort is going to lead to existential crisis. So I was very fortunate, incredibly fortunate that when I left college, I got a job with a big accounting firm, consulting accounting firm called Coopers and Lybrand, which became accountant, became— Lisa: You were an accountant. I mean, that makes me laugh, really. Mark: I was an accountant. Lisa: I was on the way to being an accountant too. So because of what my dad wanted, and I'm about as far from an accountant, as you can get, you know.  Mark: I was too. Lisa: That's a good story. Mark: But I stuck with it long enough to become a certified public accountant, I had to pass the exam.  Lisa: I didn't. Mark: I got my— I tell you what, I would rather go back to BUD/S Navy SEAL training than try that darn exam again. That told me something right there. But you know, it is a great opportunity. Because here I am, you know, I got a degree from a pretty good university called Colgate. But I didn't really have any skills. And so this job opportunity gave me and sent me to a top business school in the United States called NYU, New York University. So I got my MBA in finance, and I became a certified public accountant for four years. I got to work on a lot of different companies as a consultant and auditor. So I saw a lot. But, so that was kind of formative, in a sense, like, I learned a lot. What was probably more formative, or more substantial for me was, once I got into that suit and tie, and I was working eight hours a day, mind you, they allowed me to work only 8 or 10 hours a day. Most people in those scenarios work 15 to 20. But because they were sponsoring this small group of us to go to business school at night, they had to let us off, and then we would go to school full-time during the summer, and just come in on Fridays. It was a really cool program. So I was working 8 to 10 hours a day, going to school at night. And it's— I was an athlete, right? And I was like, ‘How am I going to, how am I going to stay as an athlete?' Right? Most people don't. Because you know, in the corporate world, and I was like, ‘I've got to, I've got to continue my athletic career.' And so I would get up really early in the morning and go for a six mile run. And then at lunchtime when all my peers would go have a beer or martini and lunch, I would go to the gym and do like this, what I now know is a high intensity functional workout, which back then nobody talked about. Because I had to go fast, and I was wanting to do a lot of different variety, and I had to be in and out of there in 45 minutes. And then after, they let me go at five o'clock in the afternoon, and my first class wasn't till 7:30. So I'm looking at that saying, ‘Look, I got two and a half hours. I could do some training here.' So one night, I wasn't sure what I was going to do. But one night, I was walking down 23rd Street, I was living on 22nd in Manhattan, and I heard these screams coming out of this building. And I stopped and I looked up and I was standing under the flag of the World Seido Karate Headquarters.  ‘Oh, interesting. Maybe it's a martial art.' And I had been intrigued with the martial arts. But in Upstate New York, that just wasn't much. There's nothing as a matter of fact, in my time, and so I didn't really get a chance to study anything. So I went in there and I was floored. I was stunned by what I saw. It was an incredible art. This was the headquarters of a worldwide art called seido, they had three or 400,000 students. And the Grand Master, the founder was on the center of the floor, this Japanese man, 10th degree black belt, looked like a frickin' tank. And he was, his name was Nakamura, and he became my mentor, my first real mentor. Yeah. Now what's interesting, he says it wasn't really the karate that changed me. It was the zen training. And he is one of the few masters who kept the old ways of training the mind and the body and the spirit, and understood that they all had to be in balance, and they all were part of the package of developing these corrupted, these trainees.  I loved the zen part, and there was a zen class we had every Thursday night for an hour, we would sit on that little wooden zazen bench. And honestly, this studio is the headquarter, had well over a thousand students. There were ten of us in this class, most of them black belts, and I was a white belt, and I was like, ‘Where is everyone else?' I didn't get it. And then there wasn't a lot of understanding or talk about meditation back then. But boy, I did this thing to do meditation. I had all the usual kind of resistance to it, and my monkey mind going all over the place and wondering if it really worked. I trusted Nakamura and the way he acted and presented himself as a character, just who he was, was so different than any other human I've ever seen or experienced. And I was like, ‘There's got to be something to this, right?' So I stuck with it. And it literally changed almost every aspect of who I was and how I saw the world and what I perceived to be my calling and my purpose in life. And it was sitting on that bench that I realised that I was going down the wrong path with this MBA, CPA, working in the corporate world. Even if I went back to the family business, it just wasn't what I was meant to do. That was the first time in my life that I allowed myself to examine my core story that said, this is who I am, and to recognise it was built on a lie. Lisa: Yeah. And you weren't following your true path. Mark: I wasn't following my true path. But my true path wasn't exactly laid out for me, in those meditation sessions. It was more like the archetypal energy in the arc of my life was shown to me and that that art was to be a warrior, and then it would lead somewhere else that wasn't quite clear to me, but the warrior part was very strong. And it didn't— I didn't get messages while I was meditating, saying, ‘You're going to be a Navy SEAL.' What I got was ‘warrior' and, ‘You're going down the wrong path with this business stuff.' It was when I finally started to accept that, that I learned about the Navy SEALs, right. Remember, this is 1987, 88, there was no TV shows and movies, no famous names.  Lisa: They weren't famous back then.  Mark: Nobody knew them. In fact, the few people that did know them were like, crazy guys. So I— one day, I was walking home from work, and I came across a Navy recruiting station. I didn't even know it was that but I saw a poster in the window. I took a double take of this poster. I was like, well, the title of that poster was, ‘Be Someone Special'. And it had Navy SEALs doing really cool shit. Jumping out of airplanes, yeah, blocking out little mini submarines, sneaking through the water. It's just so cool for me. I just sat there kind of transfixed, looking at that, and I didn't say anything about the SEALs. They said, US Navy, and I was, ‘Huh, interesting.' So I went back and I talked to the recruiters so what, ‘Who are those people in that poster?' They said, ‘Oh, they're crazy Navy SEALs. You don't want to do that.' I said, ‘Yeah, I do. Tell me more.' So long story short. I started that whole CPA, MBA bullshit, 1985. In November of 1989, I got my black belt, I got my MBA, I got my CPA and I was on a bus. I was on a bus to Officer Candidate School. Lisa: That was the next mission. Mark: On to the next mission. I wandered away from, I walked away from probably what would today's dollars be $200,000 salary to get paid $500 a month?  Lisa: Wow. That takes— Mark: For heading off as a candidate. Lisa: That takes courage. That alone takes courage. Mark: But I didn't question that. You know, I knew it. I knew this is the right path. And when I got to SEAL training, what we called BUD/S, basic underwater demolition SEAL training. Man, I felt like I was home, and there was no way that they were going to get me to quit. I mean, other people said this, but I said this very clearly: ‘You have to kill me to get me out of here.' And I don't think they can legally do that. Although they sure do try. Lisa: It can get pretty close. Mark: It can get pretty close, yeah. I sailed through SEAL training. We had 185 in my class, hardcore, awesome guys. And 19 of us graduated. I graduated number one in my class and my entire team, my boat crew that we trained together from day one, graduated with me.  Lisa: Wow.  Mark: So there's something about that meditation training, Nakamura and the skills, and the values on team building and taking my eyes off myself and putting them on others, the taming of the ego, it really allowed me to help lead my team to success, right? We made it about the team and not about me, and everyone else was about them. And they— the team's, the instructors are, their job is to select the next crop of teammates that they will go to war with.  Lisa: Yeah.  Mark: So what they're looking for is not who's the toughest guy, not who's the best athlete—  Lisa: Not the coolest, yeah.  Mark: Yeah, exactly, not the best looking whatever. It's, ‘Are you a great teammate? Are you gonna have my back?' So that's something that I guess I demonstrated.  Lisa: Wow, that's a brilliant intro into your background. What fascinates me with you too is that you like— you know, because the SEALs are known for being hard asses. I mean, you know they are hard people, they have been through tough stuff, they go through tough stuff every single day that you're out there. But you've got this meditation side, you do a heck of a lot of yoga. You do, you talk about authenticity, and I know you don't like the word vulnerability, but you're quite, you're open about the stuff. That's quite the opposite of most, in the training that you get. I suppose this comes from Nakamura being your master, that he taught you that very early on, they're sort of the both sides of the coin.  I get that question quite a lot, too. When they— when people read what I've done and achieved and so on, they're like, ‘Wow, you must be a super hard ass.' And then they meet you and realise that you're actually very vulnerable or cry a lot. I'm very full of mistakes and problems and stuff that I'm working on at all times. But the difference is, I think, that you embrace both sides. And that you are always in pursuit of excellence, and you're always improving, and you're always developing. And I found that a really interesting combination in someone who's so physically tough and mentally tough to have had both sides. Was that a hard thing in the beginning with the SEALs? Mark: I think you're right. I did learn that initially from Nakamura and so every day, you know, I was so committed. Every day I would stretch and I would do my breathing practices and my visualisation while I was going through SEAL training. Every day in the SEALs, I do some version of that. It was you know, it's difficult for a military operator to keep a daily dedicated practice going if you're up 24 hours a day, and you're in combat. Honestly, when I went to Iraq and combat, I meditated and trained yoga every single day. And it had a profound effect on me, right? In the war zone, all my teammates are just getting frayed at the edges, and I felt strong and confident, and I knew I was going to survive, because I did, I had that vision. I was going to be home with my child, you know, my wife and son.  So it came first from Nakamura, and then I started into yoga. It's not my career, it's important people know, I did plus-20 years in the Navy SEAL, but about nine years active duty and 11 years reserve. So as reserve, so nine years after I joined, even while I was on active duty, I started to get into yoga. But when I got off active duty I had more time. I went full on in, and that was because— actually it is a blessing in disguise. I was living in San Diego and there was no seido karate out here. Otherwise I would have gotten back into seido karate. So first I got into something called goju karate, I got a black belt there. It was very similar to seido but it lacked the spirit and like the mental, the meditation, so I didn't really stick with that. And then I got into ninjutsu, thinking ninjutsu might be a little bit more spiritual. I really liked the teacher but he was a horrible business guy, so right on the cusp of getting my black belt, he shut his school down and ran out of money.  And then I found yoga kind of about the same time as ninjitsu. But I didn't really understand it until I read Patanjali's yoga sutras and also Paramahansa Yogananda's autobiography yoga. And those just absolutely shattered my paradigm of what was possible and what yoga was, as the oldest science of mental and personal development. So I fully went into yoga and I ended up getting 700 hours of certifications and started my own yoga program and wrote a book about it eventually, but, and started teaching it to SEALs. And so all this I was still a SEAL officer. Because I didn't retire from the SEALs in 2011, but I was able to do all this and build a business that started to teach Navy SEALs everything I would have been learning. And that's called SEALFIT. That was the business that everything I've been learning and applying in my own life, right? And this was this integrated model of development. It started with Nakamura where it wasn't just about the physical. It was about physical, it was about mental, it was about emotional, it was about intuitional and spiritual aspects of our being. In that, I learned that if you train those together, then you will integrate, you'll become whole again. What that means is you'll become more, you have access to more of yourself. You have to put more potential. You can maintain peak performance, you can serve more profoundly, you can do more, you've got way more energy, way more enthusiasm, way more motivation, way more peace of mind, way more clarity.  It's extraordinary. In a sense, it's like coming back to who we are. That's why I call it integration. In fact, the word ‘yoga' means union or integration, and so does is zen, believe it or not. Those practices and traditions are really all about becoming whole as a human again, as opposed to fragments and separate, separate from yourself and separated from others. So I stumbled upon this, and created my own path or my own model. And then when I had started to teach it to SEALs and special operators, and other military operators, a ton of people, even from New Zealand, some of your listeners might have been to my training. Then I started to recognise that, ‘Wow, this is necessary in our culture.' Because most Westerners have no connection to this, this way of living of, taking care of the internal while you are working in the external, the yin and the yang, the balance between being and doing, becoming whole again, so you can do your work from a whole perspective as opposed to a fragmented, separated self. Which leads to suboptimal results, at a minimum, in at least a flat out crisis or destruction at the maximum level. And that's, we're seeing that both in from the investment in violence, military build-up, conflict, as well as environmental degradation is because human beings have not learned to be whole, and they don't recognise that we're all interconnected. And every one of our thoughts, every one of our emotions, every one of our actions has an implication or impact on the whole. Lisa: Yep. This is really good. Because I think, we live our lives very much in the doing. We're busy all day, we're busy with a billion million things, we're running businesses, we're— we've got families and so on. And it's really hard to find that stillness. And I know that even as an athlete who, I think for years, I was just headed through the wall, you know, taking— Mark: Most people are, that's how they learn, until they hit the wall, right?  Lisa: Yeah, no, I hit the wall a couple of dozen times before, because I was a bit thick. I didn't wake up, said, ‘Hang on, this stuff isn't working anymore.' And it works when you're 20. And it works when you're 25. And it works when you're 30. And but when you start hitting your 40s, and you're still smashing the crap out of your body, and you're not really not refilling the tank, and you're not re-examining what the hell are you doing, I think that's when the wheel started, when the wheel started to fall off for me. And I'm like, ‘Hang on a minute, this— why isn't my body doing like, it wasn't what it was supposed to do?' And when you've grown up, though, with that expectation of, you have to be tough, you have to be hard. And I grew up different to you. But I had a dad who was very, he was an awesome father, but he was a hard ass. And he expected you to be tough and mentally tough, physically tough. He didn't really tolerate a lot of weakness or sickness or anything like that. And he was an amazing dad, but he pushed really hard. And that sort of makes you think, well, you have to be hard all the time. And then when you break down, then it's you being weak. Instead of looking at the whole picture, and quieting the mind and doing these things like meditation was for me. Yeah, I know, I hear it's really important, but I can't sit still. I need it twice as much. Mark: Yeah, well, there's a reason for that. It'd be fun to talk about. But think about, when I reflect back, and my SEAL training and all these other guys were trying to be hard, and they had the same thinking, because America has a real soft side to it. But there's a lot of freakin' warriors in America. And we have that same kind of what your dad's talking about. Gotta be hard. Like, there's no room for weakness. It's got to be tough. You think about the metaphor, the guys who quit were just bad asses. Yeah, why did they quit? They quit because they didn't— they lacked the emotional strength to understand what was happening to them in their either most extreme moments of crisis or moments of just doubt, right? And then they're like, so they let uncertainty in, let doubt creep in and corrupt their decision making and then, one mistake leads to an injury we call, quinjury. And you've probably seen this in endurance athletes' is when all of a sudden the injury kind of crops up and then the person's out. And then really, reality is they created that injury to quit.  Lisa: Yeah, because they wanted a way out.  Mark: Because they wanted a way out. It's very subconscious. It's not prepared. It's not preparing properly. It's not recovering properly. It's not understanding that this is a long game and getting your ego out of the way. Lisa: It used to prop up for me every— before any big race, that in the week ahead of that race, I would get sick. And I would, I'm sure that that was my subconscious trying to stop me do it. Mark: Yeah, I've given you an out, right. And so— Lisa: You've got a cold, you've got the flu. Mark: Think about the metaphor between, if you got a tsunami coming, like, consider tsunami a metaphor for a crisis, or a big challenge, like BUD/S or a 50 mile or 100 mile race or something like that. There's a tsunami coming. Would you rather be a mighty oak facing that tsunami, or would you rather be like a reed?  Lisa: A reed, definitely. Mark: Yeah, if so, when I went to SEAL training, I tried to be the reed, right? I tried to be really flexible. I didn't let anything bother me. You know, structures would come up and, during Hell Week for us, which week seven back then. But now it's more like week three or four, seven days non-stop training around the clock, no sleep. Everyone's heard about that. Like a day, Thursday, like the day before, we're over it most of it, we're down to 60, 35, maybe 45 or 50, actually, in our class from 185 already. And instructor evil comes over and he's like, ‘Mark, I don't like you, I'm gonna make you quit.' And in my mind, I was like, ‘Good luck.' And I even think I started— Lisa: That confidence! Mark: I don't know, it was just my spiritual strength saying, ‘No, you're not going to get me to quit, you can't.' And so I actually was challenging him in my mind, and it must come through on my face. And he goes, ‘I'm gonna wipe that smirk right out that effing face.' And he just made me start doing 8-count bodybuilders, which are like a burpee, basically. And I remember in my mind thinking, ‘Okay, all right. Let's do this.' Right? All I got to do is one 8-count bodybuilder at a time, until he gets tired. Lisa: Until he gets tired. Mark: Exactly! So that's what I did. I just did one. I just want, did one 8-count bodybuilder. And then I just did one 8-count bodybuilder. And then I just did one 8-count bodybuilder. And when we got up to like— Lisa: You broke him. Mark: 800.  Lisa: Holy heck.  Mark: Which is nothing, right? I did 24 hours of burpees last, a couple of years ago, as part of our challenge. We did, check this out: we did 22 million burpees as a tribe to raise money for veterans. And part of that was to break a world record where our six-person team, you would love this, three men and three women, we did 36,000 burpees in 24 hours, so I did 7,500 or something like that. So 700 is nothing. Back then I didn't know if it was going to be 700 or 7,000 or 70,000. But he got bored, and he walked away at about 700, and I have to say, that worked. That's a good strategy.  Lisa: What about the burning in the muscles and the exhaustion and the running out of glycogen—  Mark: You can do anything, one at a time.  Lisa: Wow.  Mark: It's just like in a race, I'm sure you get to a point where all you have to do all you are saying to yourself is, ‘Just one more step.'  Lisa: One more step. Yep, absolutely.  Mark: Same thing. We call them micro goals. And so we teach— I started teaching these to SEALs, and the best guys already did this. But now we teach it, the SEALs are teaching what I call the Big Four. And they're teaching box breathing for controlling their stress, they're teaching positive internal dialogue, and mantras. And they're teaching visualisation, visualise every event and visualise what the end state looks like for you and then visualise the mission and whatnot. And then micro goals. Like go to BUD/S thinking about eight months of training, you go to BUD/S thinking about, ‘What do I got to do today to win this?' And then when today gets hard, you just collapse. ‘What do I need to do to win this evolution or event that I'm in?' And then when that gets harder, you know, it's like, ‘What do I got to do to get to the next five minutes?' Anytime you quit, or you have the thought, ‘Well, this sucks. I think I want to quit.' You just say, ‘Well, let me just push through to another— let me just push through another five minutes.' Or, ‘Let me just get to that berm up there,' if it's a run, or Log-Pt could go on forever. ‘Let me just finish this evolution, then I'll make a decision.' And so you just keep kicking the can down the road of the pain and the quit decision and the suffering and eventually the suffering goes away, because that's a temporary state. Lisa: And this is like that you just dropped so much golden inside of two minutes. Take a couple of those because these are things that I've took me 20 years to learn. Mark: Play it back in slow motion. Lisa: You know, like this. That's how that's how I break down. You know, every mess of the like, I remember and my listeners have heard me tell the story. But I ran 2,250 kilometers from New Zealand for charity.  Mark: Wow. Good for you. Holy cow.  Lisa: Yeah, no, it's like, but I've been so busy in the build-up doing— I've been at other races around the world, done Badwater in the States, just come back from that, just launched a book and then I'm standing at the start line. I've been so busy in the thing that I actually hadn't thought about actually running the— because I was just like, ‘Yeah, I got everything, sweet.' And then I'm starting at the start line and I just had a panic attack, like the first real big panic attack. And I'm not, because you're staring down the barrel of this—  Mark: Like, holy shit, this is too high to climb. What the heck have I done? Lisa: What the frick was I thinking? And I went home, we had media, we had all my crew and everybody there and I just went away behind the one of the cars and got my mum, my mummy ‘cuz she's my safe place, went to my mummy and I just bawled my eyes out. And said, ‘Mum I can't do this, I don't know what the frick I was thinking. I can't, and there's no way out.' And mum's just like, ‘Hey,' as she hugged me, as mums do. And she said, ‘You don't need to do 2,250 today. All I want you to focus on is that little box up there,' you know, that was a couple of hundred meters up the road. ‘That's what you got to do right now. And then you're going to, you're going to get through to lunchtime, and then you're gonna have lunch. And then we're going to get through to this and that.'  She just broke it down into pieces, and she took all of that load that I was just like, ‘Oh my God, this is huge,' and she broke it into one step at a time, basically. And that was some of the greatest learnings that I've taken away for every event that I've done when— and there have been times when I've broken and I've just crashed on the ground. I don't know how to get up and people have come along and they've got me up and walked me through the next few steps. Or the next— and that has gotten you over that hump, you know? And I just wait, you know, that's so much gold, right there, what you've just said. I think if we can do that in daily life so when we're faced with some big scary thing coming at us, how do I just get through this moment? And we're very— if you can get through these impulses, you know, like there's 30 seconds, through the 30 seconds almost, sometimes you can get to a place where you can cope again. And then you can sort of get back up. Mark: And this goes back to like the internal dialogue. Most people don't examine their internal dialogue. And this is where meditation is so critical. And you can also consider, like running or swimming or biking, endurance sports generally, are also very good for examining internal dialogue, because you're going to meet resistance. How you talk to yourself has an incredible impact on your energy and your motivation. Literally, we use the terminology ‘feeding the courage wolf' versus ‘feeding the fear wolf'. Feeding fear is allowing negative dialogue and negative imagery and negative emotions to kind of run the rule the roost of your psychology, and that weakens you. Negative thoughts demonstrably weaken you as a human being.  Lisa: Yeah, because—  Mark: They're gonna not just weaken your motivation but literally musculature-wise you get weaker, and that's been proven through kinesiology. So positive thoughts create a higher vibration, which bring more energy, more access to more creativity and motivation. And so you got to train positive thoughts. That's what I mean by feeding the courage wolf. And the more you feed the courage wolf by training positive mantras and positive thoughts, then the more you starve the fear wolf until he goes away, until he just doesn't have the food anymore. And those patterns dry up and blow away. So I created a bunch of positive mantras that I would say in the SEAL training, and they're still with me today.  As soon as I start a hard workout, they kick back in. ‘Feeling good, I'm looking good, ought to be in Hollywood. Feeling good, I'm looking good, ought to be in Hollywood. I can get out of me in Hollywood. I've got this easy day, piece of cake. Boo yeah, hey, got this. Easy day, piece of cake. Boo yeah, hey.' And then I'll synchronise that with my breathing. So, hardcore, run three steps and inhale 1, 2, 3, ‘I've got this. Easy day. Piece of cake.' Exhale 1, 2, 3. Right.  Lisa: And the rhythm is good too, hey. Mark: Yeah, exactly. So I was synchronising those before, the big four. The first skill I said, box breathing, it's really breath control. Running, anything you're doing, always breathing through your nose as best as possible, and controlling the breathing and creating a nice rhythmic pattern with the breathing. It's going to be different depending upon what you're doing. If you're lifting weights, gonna be one thing, if you're running another, swimming another. Swimming creates its own little breathing patterns, because head in the water versus out of the water. But just starting there, controlling your breathing and adding a positive mantra, or a positive internal statement that's linked to the breath is transformative. Not only does it keep you in the game athletically or whatever, but when you do this during your regular day, day in and day out, you're training your mind to be really positive and to be very concentrated. So you're developing concentration power. So you're turning your mind from like a scattered floodlight, which is flickering on and off, the monkey mind, to a very, very concentrated laser beam that you can point that laser beam on anything, any task, any project, and it deeply improves your productivity, the ability to get things done, you know, significantly.  Lisa: Wow.  Just interrupting the program briefly to let you know that we have a new Patron program for the podcast. Now, if you enjoy Pushing the Limits, if you get great value out of it, we would love you to come and join our Patron membership program. We've been doing this now for five and a half years and we need your help to keep it on air. It's been a public service free for everybody, and we want to keep it that way. But to do that we need like-minded souls who are on this mission with us to help us out. So if you're interested in becoming a patron for Pushing the Limits podcast, then check out everything on www.patron.lisatamati.com. That's P-A-T-R-O-N dot lisatamati.com. We have two Patron levels to choose from. You can do it for as little as $7 a month, New Zealand, or $15 a month if you really want to support us. So we are grateful if you do. There are so many membership benefits you're going to get if you join us. Everything from workbooks for all the podcasts, the strength guide for runners, the power to vote on future episodes, webinars that we're going to be holding, all of my documentaries and much, much more. So check out all the details: patron.lisatamati.com. And thanks very much for joining us. Mark: And then the imagery, right, the imagery. Well, let me backup. The other thing that that process of paying attention to the quality of your thoughts and changing them to positive thoughts, and increasing your concentration power, as you start to look at the dialogue too, in your head. What is actually going on? And you recognise that typically what's going on in your head is a series of statements that are also based upon belief systems, but it can be framed as questions. When people say, ‘I don't think I can do this,' what they're really saying is, ‘Am I worthy? Am I competent?'  We can begin to recognise that our belief systems are based upon questions and statements that may or may not be true. And so you want to take a look at the ones that are questionable, especially if they have a negative quality, and say, ‘Is that true?' And you realise, ‘It's not true. I am worthy. I am competent.' Now, I may not feel that yet. But the more I tell myself that and the more I can see that in myself, and the more that I meditate and actually feel into my worthiness and my confidence, and the more I work to eradicate the emotional side or shadow that may have, be tied to related to that — for me, it was because of the childhood abuse, I kind of felt a little unworthiness and whatnot, even though I was capable as a SEAL, it's still kind of plagued me for a while, until I had to stare down that wolf of fear and be like, ‘Yeah, that's all bullshit. That's just a story that I'm holding on to and I was able to release all that energy and feel that worthiness now.' Then that leads to a whole nother set of questions, which are extraordinarily empowering, right. So when I— understanding your capability as a human being, the potential that you have, the power that we have, you can then project that into the future and say, ‘What does victory look like for me?' Right? ‘If I'm going to run this 2,000 meter, or 2,000 kilometer race, and I'm going to raise money for charity, what is that for? What's my ‘why'? And what does victory look like?'  You get a clear sense of what victory looks like. And then you can even do that with the micro parts. So you chunked it down into 100 kilometer segments, let's just say. What does victory look like for that segment for the next five days? What does it look like for today? What does it look like— this is, in a sense, what your mom was doing, but she was doing it from the other way around. What does it look like for the next six hours? What does it look like for the next three hours? You get a clear picture because you're asking the right questions, and you're winning in your mind before you step foot into the battlefield. So asking really powerful questions like, what does victory look like? Who is on my team? Who's got my back? Why am I doing this? How is it related to my purpose in my life? These are the questions that we start asking, because now we've drowned out the negative incessant chatter, which is just holding us back and distracting us. We've created this space, and I use the metaphor still water pond. We've taken our mind and we've created it instead of this choppy, you know, bouncing all over the place, turbulent thought stream, largely negative, we've calmed down. And it's now this still water, and on this still water, you can look at it, you can really see a reflection clearly. So that's kind of a nice thing, you get to see your true self more clearly, but also, what you drop into that water in terms of the thought is going to ripple out and affect everything. So you end up dropping thought seeds that are really powerful, instead of chaotic and negative. Lisa: Because there's this whole, these automatic negative thoughts and if we think about how we evolved that was there for our survival. Because we needed to be aware of dangers and things in our environment, so we were always looking for the bad thing that was going to come at us. But in our world now, where we just, we have this constant chatter in our head. And it's, you know, I've certainly dealt with this for a long time, and I and I fought against the whole sitting still thing, and focusing inwards. Because it's very unpleasant, when you having— when you want to move, you just want to move. Give me a hard ass workout, any day, over meditation, you know, because it's just like this energy, this agitation, but that's why I need to do it. So that I can break through that piece of the puzzle. And then you can tap into strengths that you didn't know you had, and quietness, and then you start to really reflect and like, for me, it has only really been, even in the last few months where I've been— My dad passed away, and it was one hell of a battle for his life. And I, yeah, it was a real— I was fighting against the system. And it was a mess of battle. It's all good when you win, but it's also good when you don't win. And so this one, just been— I was a bit of an existential crisis after that, because I'd lost this battle for my dad, who I loved dearly. And it made me go inward. It made me start to really question some of the biggest things because you start realising that life's short, shorter than I think it's gonna be. You want to understand why, and then going inside and doing some deep work and doing some trauma work and doing all that sort of hard stuff has been great. There's always good that comes out of shit. You never ever want to go through things like that, but when you do, you can always turn them into something, a learning curve of some sort. And having that, I was listening to you with Bedros Keulian, who's also is another one that I— Mark: Yeah, he's an awesome guy. Lisa: Yeah, he's just a rock star. in you, when you were talking about how you went through the zen process where you were, for a start, you started meditating, but you're just learning to quiet the mind. And then after a few months, that became then mindfulness. Where you're starting to observe yourself from outside in splitting the mind or somehow you put this and you're actually observing yourself as this higher self, if you like. Can you explain that a little bit? And how does that— Mark: Yeah, so glad you brought that up. Because I wanted to talk about that. Because you're right. It's— meditation is hard, especially for active people, which everybody, everybody listening, everybody in the Western world is pretty much hyperactive. Yep, that's what we're taught; it's reality. Like, ‘Go, go, go. Do, do, do.' We get over-committed. Now we have, you know, constant distraction with our iPhones and social media, and it's just gonna get worse, worse, worse. Wait until we get plugged in with a neural link, you know, like, wow. So we got to push back against that. The only way to push back against that is to disconnect from all that and to sit still, or stand still, or take a walk. But don't do anything, right. Don't do it for a goal. Don't do it to check it off a box. Don't do it to be the best meditator you know. Lisa: Tick that box.  Mark: It doesn't work, right? Lisa: That was what I was going to— Max: There's no goals here. Right? It's about becoming still, getting that clarity and this still water mind back, if you ever had it, but we had it when we were kids, of course, but in a different sense. So that you can evolve. You know, let me start there. I think that there's two reasons we're on this planet. One is to evolve to become the best version, highest and best version of yourself in this lifetime. The second is to align with our calling or our purpose. And those two really kind of go hand-in-hand or hand-in-glove. You can't evolve if you're constantly doing. You actually will stay stuck. You'll keep getting your ass handed to you. You'll keep suffering. You'll keep feeling victimised. And you'll keep looking outward for the solutions. And you'll keep blaming other people, or society, or taxes, or the government, or God. Lisa: A lot of fingers are turned. Mark: The answers lie within, right? And so the only way to go inward is to slow down and just be quiet. Right? So it's imperative. Now, why do most people fail? A) Because everything I've just talked about, they haven't been taught this. And B) because they're body mind, their body brain is very, very agitated. It's amped up because you've been taking all this stress on throughout your life. So what I teach is that the first step in meditation practice isn't mindfulness. It isn't a mantra practice. It's just a box breathe, which is a pattern breathe, five-count in, five-count hold, and five-count out, five-count hold, or four, or three, if you have trouble with that. And just let that nostril breathing in that massaging that the vagus nerve, stimulate the parasympathetic nervous system. And it's bleeding off stress and bringing your body brain back into my balance.  Lisa: Yep.  Mark: When your body brain is back into balance, your brain is going to experience that as a lower frequency rate. Lower frequency means fewer thoughts, right? If you're in gamma, it's like tick-tick, popcorn brain. But if you're in alpha, like listening to beautiful music, classical music, or you're maybe doing some journaling, your mind stops racing. It starts to get into— Lisa: A lovely alpha state of focus.  Mark: Yeah, and so the box breathing practice trains your mind to get back into alpha, trains your body to de-stress, and you do this. It might take you months, usually about three months. I— my clients have this extraordinary calming that comes over them. And they're already changed. But this is, you know, just the preparatory work, right? This also, for those who are working on their physical structure in their health and their weight, this also has enormous benefits because you begin to feel a lot better. And you begin, you know, you're starting to breathe in that life force again. You're getting more oxygen with every breath, and you're retraining the breathing patterns so this becomes your more natural state. If you, let me just pause here, if you train for 20 minutes a day, have a five-count box breath, that's three breaths per minute, over time, and might take a year or more, you're gonna eventually settle into a natural breath pattern of six breaths per minute, which is now proven to the optimal. Lisa: Exactly.  Mark: I've been doing this for years, I never knew that, it just settled out there to where six breaths per minute through the nose was standard for me, or a standard, and that's what will happen to you.  Lisa: Yep.  Mark: Yeah. But those are full breaths, full exhales, getting all the toxins out there.  Lisa: Basically the exhale. Mark: It's enormously beneficial for your body, and everything starts to come back into balance: you start losing weight, you start eating better. Because you want to eat better, you start sleeping b

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Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   If you enjoy the podcast and would like to help us reach more ears, please consider leaving a rating or review on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-wonder-science-based-paganism/id1501228156   Event links mentioned and transcripts: ----more---- Atheopagan Saturday Mixer - June 5 - 10:15am PDT:  https://www.facebook.com/events/748671529133222/?acontext=%7B%22event_action_history%22%3A[%7B%22surface%22%3A%22group%22%7D]%7D   Atheopagan Sex Salon:  https://www.facebook.com/events/458783078686816/?acontext=%7B%22event_action_history%22%3A[%7B%22surface%22%3A%22group%22%7D]%7D   Free Spirit Gathering 2021 Online: https://www.fsgonline.org   S2E20 TRANSCRIPT: Mark: Welcome back to The Wonder: Science-Based Paganism. I'm one of your hosts, Mark.  Yucca: And I'm Yucca..  Mark: Today we're going to talk about the reopening after the waning of the COVID-19 pandemic obviously the pandemic isn't over and there are certainly causes for concern in many places about reopening too soon or places elsewhere in the world where the, the pandemic is still very much raging but in many parts of the United States with the advent of the vaccination and so forth we're talking about reopening and going back to some of the activities that we weren't able to do during the shutdowns. And so today we're going to talk about that and what we think it means for us and what we'd like to retain from what we learned during the pandemic and some hopes for what we'll get to do soon. Yucca: We certainly are not saying that the pandemic is over or that it's gone or anything like that, but we're in such a different place than we were a year ago today. We're just looking at very different futures. And. I would still really encourage people to be very, very thoughtful about their activities. But knowing that, if you've got the vaccine, if you're going to go spend time with people who also have been vaccinated, that the options of how to be safe are much, much greater than they used to be. Yeah.  Mark: Yes. I mean, we all know what the safe practices are now, you know, wear a mask, practice, safe social distancing, wash your hands. Particularly if you're not feeling well put a mask on and try to avoid contact with other people. It's not rocket science. And it works. We know that it works not only because we had far fewer fatalities from COVID than we would have if we hadn't shut down by a factor of hundreds of thousands of deaths. But also because we have indicators from other diseases that were stopped in their tracks last year, I was, we were just talking Before we were recording and the United States only had 2,300 cases of flu last year that were reported. Now, ordinarily we have 32,000 deaths from flu and millions of cases, but there were only 2300 cases reported throughout the entire country. So that's social distancing and mask wearing prevented people from transmitting influenza, which is a deadly disease. Yucca: Yeah. And in our household, our immediate household of four, which includes two very young children, we weren't sick at all.  And with little people are very good at getting sick and spreading sicknesses, nothing. And. That's because we, they weren't sharing snot with their, with other children. That's a big one. Right. But we also, weren't taking them to stores where they would be touching the shopping carts and then putting their hands in their mouths and then jumping on top of grownups and coughing in their faces, which is just all normal primate behavior. right. Mark: Right, right. Nothing wrong with it. And actually it does help to build a stronger immune systems in children to be exposed to a lot of different contaminants like that when they're very young. But of course, when something, this deadly is going around, you kind of have to make that take a back seat to safety. Yucca: Yeah, so we said eat plenty of dirt.  Mark: Okay. Yucca: That is one of the interesting things to think about on a societal level. I think that w we've really needed to make the choice that we made, but be very interesting to see the decrease in exposure to childhood diseases and things like that. How that, what kind of long-term effects that has on the development of our immune systems  Mark: Yes. Yucca: in a world where we already are struggling with over sanitized environments and in all kinds of things like that.  Mark: Right, right. So that kind of leads into what are the things that we learned? During this pandemic what were practices that we learned and what were adaptations that we developed that we would probably want to keep even as the disease fades we learned some things and we made some good adaptations. So let's talk about those now.  Yucca: well, I think what are the first big ones that the topic we were already on was the idea of masks. If you're not feeling well, I really hope that people will continue to use masks. If you wake up in the morning, have a little tickle in the back of your throat, but Hey, you still got to go to work. You still got to pick up food afterwards, all that, you know, throw a mask on and you probably are contagious. So you're being respectful to the world around you to have that mask on.  Mark: Right. Yeah. You're probably contagious. So act like it. Be considerate of other people. Because there will always be people in our midst who are immune compromised or for some reason or another can't for example, have a flu shot every year, or are particularly susceptible to some kinds of rhinoviruses and those folks need protection. Yucca: And you can't tell who they are by looking at them. You might be able to tell that 95 year old elder. Sure. But you know, I have a dear friend who can't take the, who's young, she's like 29 or something, but she can't take the COVID vaccine because of some pre-existing health conditions and is therefore susceptible, but you'd absolutely never know looking at this person. They look completely healthy, fit, muscles. Like they work out at the gym, all that stuff, but you just don't know.  Mark: Sure. Well, especially I mean, I'm thinking about it, my work we have a program for clients who are HIV positive. As a part of the healthy food delivery that we do through the food bank and with the new triple cocktail of drugs that advantaged in the nineties You know, these folks are fine. As long as they're taking the drugs that suppress the virus in their system. And, but they're still immune compromised and you wouldn't know necessarily whether they were up to 100% immunity, of efficiency of an immune system or not by looking at them, there's no way. So it's incumbent on all of us to be thoughtful. And if we feel like we're going to be contagious with something, put on a mask. Yucca: Yeah, And if we're going to keep doing this civilization thing, Where there's billions of us living closely together. Then that's just what we got to do. And I'm pretty fond of the lot of us. There's some that I could leave, you know, some that I could skip or maybe not spend time with, but as an idea, I think it's pretty good. Mark: Yeah, me too. Me  Yucca: Right. I think humans are pretty great in general.  Mark: Yeah. They are pretty amazing. Yucca: So there's that element? What for you, Mark?  Mark: Well, I mean, we're doing it as we speak. The zoom revolution has been a huge thing. The opportunity to speak with people at a distance cheaply with a visual, as well as the sound component is obviously very compelling for people because they've chosen to do it in many cases a lot more than they ever communicated by phone. You know, we need all those visual cues and as it is, we lose a lot through the lens. We don't get to see a lot of, you know, sort of faint cues that just don't translate through the camera. But I used to see my ritual circle every six weeks or so in person. And since COVID, we've been zooming every Friday. So I actually get to see them a lot more than I used to. Even though we can't be together physically and do physical rituals and enjoy one another's company and a meal and all that kind of stuff, which I'm definitely looking forward to. But we did in the atheopagan community. We do mixers every Saturday morning. Those aren't going to go away when once COVID is gone. And we've done a lot of in-kind online events, like death chats and sex salons and webinars and all that kind of stuff. And the fact that zoom has become this video conferencing tool, very robust video conferencing tool. That's affordable by pretty much. Everyone is just a great thing. It's really a powerful tool. Yucca: yeah. we, my siblings, for the first time in years, we were all together, so to say, on Thanksgiving, and we'll probably do that again. That was fantastic. And getting to see people and it's, again it's not the same as being in person, but it's a lot more than the phone and people can participate on different levels.  And zoom has also done something very interesting for education. Now people have very mixed feelings about distance education, depending on what kind of experiences they had. But it's has opened up a lot of opportunities for people to connect, to normalize that so that people in rural settings can have access to teachers all over the world. This is really big, not just within the United States, but for villages that are literally a day away. Where kids can get access through satellite internet, to an instructor. And that's something that has a really exciting it's really exciting for the future of people and education and all of that is that connection that is being built there.  Mark: Yeah, Yeah, for sure. And I have to say that just in the particular case of what I'm doing in working to get the word out about non theist paganism around the country and world, the fact that all of the conferences became virtual this year was a very big deal because I can't afford to fly to all these various places and make presentations and pay for hotel rooms. I can't possibly do that. And yet, This year, I was able to present to the Conference on Current Pagan Studies, the Seattle Atheist Church, a UU congregation in North Carolina. I have the Silicon Valley  (Sunday Assembly) congregation coming up. And both of us actually will be presenting to the Free Spirit Gathering later on in June. All of them through virtual means, and that is very powerful to be able to serve on a panel or make an individual presentation to people that otherwise you would never be able to reach it. It has tremendously expanded the capacity of what I've been able to accomplish over the last year. Yucca: And people's ability to attend those, right? So you were speaking at them, but people being able to go to them, the society that I'm a member of the Mars Society, our turnout was so huge and the feedback was great about it being virtual, that the decision is that we're just going to keep doing it that way, even if we can do it in person, you know, flying to Pasadena or Boulder or wherever is just, isn't a possibility for most people.  Mark: Right,  Yucca: right. I did it once. I drove to one of the meetings once and it was like, this was, this is great, but how many hundreds of dollars in gas and hotel and taking time off of work and all of this  Mark: carbon emissions.  Yucca: Yeah.  Mark: Yeah. That really has been the experience of a number of conferences. I've also been to some conferences for work. That I've been to, the access level is just so much higher. And most of these events are free because they can be, they're not paying a huge amount of money to reserve a hotel and all of it's hotel rooms or a convention center or an assembly hall. They're not paying for a sound technician and a camera technician and all that kind of stuff. The level of investment that's required to be able to do an event like that is markedly lower. So, that's really a good thing. And I think that it's gonna pay dividends for us over the long haul. Because I think that like the Mars Society, many organizations are going to decide, you know, it's fun to go off and play in another city and stuff, but is that really what we're about is that our mission or is our mission to talk about the subject at hand? Yucca: Yeah. And not to say that there aren't in that there isn't value in the in-person interaction. I think that all of this has really highlighted how important in person interaction can be as well. But it's only available to a very select group of people. Where this equals the playing field. A lot for many people  Mark: And the technology is improving, zoom now has breakout rooms where you can have smaller groups where you're able to interact with one another in a more informal kind of way.  Yucca: And we're talking zoom, but there's plenty of other platforms  Mark: there are Yucca: that are very sad that they didn't get to be the one.  Mark: right. Yucca: But there's a lot of, but you know, I don't particularly use it, but FaceTime has got, is supposed to have gotten much better and Google Meets better. And what are some other ones, Slack and  Mark: Facebook messenger.  Yucca: you have.  Mark: Yeah. Wow. Damn it. I just did a commercial for Facebook.  Yucca: Sorry, we're just listing options. Yeah, so, I mean, that's all that's some real positives that we've seen.   Mark: That said. It was tremendously isolating. These were all adaptations that we made so that we didn't feel completely cut off from social interaction because we're social beings, we humans and the business of the world needed to carry on. We have all our various enterprises that we're doing, whether it's teaching or businesses or a religion or whatever it is, we have the things that we're working to. To develop and that couldn't stop entirely. So we just did what humans do, which is adapt. Yucca: People controlled spacecraft from their living rooms in their pajama pants. It's pretty cool. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: Humans are amazing like that in that we push through and it's, and this is what we're living with today, but I think it's important to remember that, that humans have been going through hardship for as long as we've been humans. And we managed to as a whole, not all of the individuals, but we managed to make them make it through that and bring good forward and bad from those things. So,   Yeah.  Mark: Unfortunately, one of the things in the United States that's really become evidently clear in terms of the response to the COVID virus is that and of course I blame the leadership of the last administration for this a lot, but nothing can't be politicized. I would have hoped that in the face of a deadly pandemic, we could have pulled together. We did it the way we did after Nine 11 and done something collectively that would have benefited all of us. And it would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives if we had. But unfortunately that was not that wasn't the call that was made by those that were in a position to make the call. And so now, We have even more of a rift between those who believe in science and listen to experts and those who don't Yucca: some other things that maybe we can think about carrying on that I hope there's more of are some of the outdoor gathering and that's a lead into. What we're going to talk in a little bit about the looking forward. But I think that the outdoor dining has been great. The, when we have been able to see people, having it be in an outdoor setting there were some schools that very quickly and of course it really depended on the situation, but we're able to develop more outdoor classroom spaces and see the value in that.  Mark: And I think it's oh, go ahead.  Yucca: Continue.  Mark: Well, I think it's good for people to be outside generally. But I mean, I have a prejudice--I am part of a nature based religion. I think being under the sky and exposed to the sun and the wind and to have, you know, visible growing things around you is is inherently beneficial to us at a deep level. And I think a lot of people have been enjoying eating outside, but of course not maybe in January. Yeah. Yucca: Yeah, depends on your particular region. But yeah, there's, I mean, there's so much from that level of appreciation. Yeah. We talked recently about that in an episode. But also just getting more vitamin D just from a medical perspective. In the country that we live in the United States, states the majority of adults, and I don't know the numbers on children, but the majority of adults are vitamin D deficient. And I would imagine that's going to be very similar in much of Europe and Australia and particularly in, in the Northern countries  Mark: Yes. Yes. Although my understanding is that being out in the Sun, isn't that beneficial for your vitamin D unless you're wearing very little in the way of clothing, you just need the surface area. In order to manufacture the vitamin D. Yucca: A lot of different factors involved. From what time of day to your skin tone to the rest of your diet, if you don't have enough of the vitamin K, even if you get the D there, your ability to process it as effected. But , we're not medical professionals here. But my understanding is that even with clothing on that, there's still the benefit of just the hands and the face to be getting that. But again, that really depends on skin tone  Mark: sure of course. Yucca: And unfortunately, The, well, I'll just put it out there that for folks, if you're interested research sunscreen and the that's a big topic there, but the use of sunscreen can be problematic for actually synthesizing vitamin D because of the balance of what particular wavelengths are being blocked out and which ones aren't. So it gets pretty complex there.  And in addition to the vitamin D there's other factors involved with just light levels, even if you're not getting, even if it's not vitamin D the L the light that you have inside versus outside is so different. And our brains adjust for us. We don't visually see it, but if the difference is there, so.  Mark: indoors and outdoors. Yeah. I mean, it's a gigantic difference in terms of the sheer intensity of light.  Well, that was rather interesting tangent about light levels and vitamin D. So outdoor dining, outdoor learning outdoor activities. Good for you. Yes. Thumbs up. What else?  Yucca: Not an issue for me with my particular field, but I hope that  working from home is more normalized,  Mark: Yes. Yucca: Because there's a lot of reasons why there's some pretty big benefits to that. Again, not saying that we've got it perfect, and that there aren't things to work on, but cutting down on that commuting, giving people, respecting people as you know, people able to make their own decisions about how they manage their time and be in a healthier situation. And all of that kind of stuff is just really big. For the types of jobs that's a possibility for. Obviously if you are a chef or something like that, it's the working from home it's going to be a little more challenging.  Mark: right, right. And I mean, this was one thing that we really saw in that we, that should have been evident that we only learned during the COVID crisis is that the most important roles in many cases are low paid service positions. You know, that's really, what's keeping everything running, you know, people who are collecting garbage and recycling people who are interacting with the public in any of a variety of different ways, healthcare workers that, you know, those folks who are at most risk for exposure to COVID, we're also the folks that were least likely to be able to work from home. And. So we really need to be reconsidering the value of that kind of employment. And I would say paying people a lot more. Yucca: Yep.  Mark: if you're an essential worker, but you're paid minimum wage. Well, what does that mean?   But it just doesn't the formula doesn't work.  Yucca: Yep.  Mark: So,  Yucca:  So we've talked about just the idea of reopening some of the things that we hope will continue, that we will have learned and things that we think were positive that came out of this, but what are some of the things that you're really looking forward to as some of the restrictions lighten and it becomes a little bit more safe to have in-person interactions again.  Mark: Well, one of them I've already done, which is that for the first time in more than a year, my D&D group got together and played in person last Sunday. And we played for what was it? I think it was only six hours, but still it was a nice long session. We had a really good time. It was great to see one another. It was just really fun.  Yucca: Well, there's  Mark: that was cool. Yucca: nothing like leaning over to see what the person rolled. Right. He can't quite do that on the computer, but he can lean over and go, ah, oh, you got a one.  Mark: I rolled terribly all night. I must've rolled six ones in really critical situations. And particularly because my character has a very low strength, There were these strength challenges that I needed to do. So I mean, I literally just sort of flopped and flailed, my athletics checks across this set of stepping stones across a raging river. And other people kept having to catch me. And the whole thing was just really embarrassing, but. Anyway, it makes for a good story. Yucca: oh, that's awesome. Congratulations. To be able to be back in person and yeah.  Mark: Yeah, it was great. So how about you? What did some of the things you're looking forward to. Yucca: Well, Going to the library. That's a big one, especially with the little ones, getting to go to the library. And our libraries were great about very early on getting a setup where you could do a contactless exchange of books, but it's just not the same as being in the library. And. Just looking through the different browsing. and and we have some just very sweet little children's sections and the libraries that we have in our county.  And one of them has a rainbow hall that you have to walk through. That was there when I was a child. And it just really look forward to being able to just be there with the kids.   Also, and this is a while out because my kids are under 12, so there aren't vaccines for them yet, but them just getting to play with other kids and it not having to be a stressful situation. Cause we've been able to do a little bit with the okay have your mask on and remember but it's really hard to tell a two and a half year old to stop tackling the other kid because that's what they do.  Mark: Right,  Yucca: They want to tackle each other and they want to try each other's masks on and all, and you just, it's just like, No. So just this, the stuff with the kids, this is what I most really look forward to.  I mean, there's the part of me that says social anxiety that would be happy to never have to go into a store or inside of, you know, an office building or anything like that again but they're getting to see people and just not have to be nervous about strangers would be really looking forward to that.  Mark: Yeah. Yeah. I'm really looking forward to being able to get together with my ritual circle again. We've been together this Hallows, this, Samhain it will be 30 years. So we started in 1991 and until COVID we had just been rolling along. We live at somewhat of a distance from one another, so every six weeks was about what we can manage, but we just kept going year after year after year. And they're really my family. They're the people I'm closest to in the world. And I just so look forward to seeing them and then. Being able to hug them and hang out and have a meal and do our rituals and that stuff. That's really an important one for me. Yucca: Yeah. That's amazing. 30 years. That's great.  Mark: And we didn't even, it was formed by myself and my ex wife--who's still in the group--for a one-off Samhain gathering, there was no plan that it would continue thereafter, but everybody was so happy about that one that they said let's do another one and 30 years later. Here we are.  Yucca: Still doing another one.  Mark: Yeah. All the original members are still members. Plus we've added two more, three more, three more. Yucca: Well, you, as a group were able to do virtual rituals. It's not the same as being in person, but you were able to carry through during the shutdowns.  Mark: Yes. We've done a couple of virtual rituals since the, but not every Sabbath, not. I mean, we did Hallows and Yule. Those were the two that we did. Oh, we did something for Bridget too for the February holiday. So I guess we haven't missed very many. But anyway So I'm really looking forward to that. And also to the opportunity that opening presents, because I know that there are people in the Atheopaganism group on Facebook who live really in my local area and I've never met them and it would be nice to convene something. To do a gathering of those folks and, you know, get to meet them and know them. And if they're interested of course. Yucca: Coffee or a hike or something like that.  Mark: like that. Yeah. And see where that goes. Yucca: Well, and on that note I think we've teased the idea before, but there's very serious talk and planning beginning for 2022 to have a much larger gathering.  Mark: Yes. We still don't have a name for it. We've been calling it AtheopaganCon. I mean Atheopagan is too many syllables to begin with. You add an extra one and it's just outrageous. Yes, we're planning for a gathering sometime in the summer or early fall of 2022 in the Denver area, so that it's central for people in the United States to get to. And it's also a major airline hubs. So the air tickets are cheaper for people who fly.  Yucca: That time of year is just fantastic in that area.  Mark: it is. It's very beautiful. And there's there are, you know, Rocky Mountain National Park is right adjacent. They're just beautiful places to go. And it would be a great opportunity for us to socialize and share rituals and You know, share fellowship and maybe have some workshops or something, not sure about that yet. But it's basically an opportunity to invite people that have never met one another in person to come and, you know, meet up. And so, there's a lot of excitement about this. And almost nothing at this point is known about it because, you know, we've got to figure all that stuff out, like where people are going to stay and how much does that cost and Yucca: The logistics are pretty immense for that kind of thing.  Mark: They are, but. We are fortunate in that this amazing woman who I know in the, who lives in the Denver area, who used to do a big Pagan festival called Beltainia there until a couple of years ago. She knows all the venues. She knows all this stuff and she's super competent and organized and she's on the committee. So I'm very excited that this is going to happen. Yucca: Yeah. Oh, that'd be, yeah, definitely looking forward to that.  Mark: It'd be just so great. Build a fire... Yucca: yeah. it's this is just such an interesting time. It feels. It feels like, you know, you can see the light at the end of the tunnel, right. There's still a lot. And we got to keep on top of it and we've got to continue to be safe and responsible and continue for, to get the vaccine out to everybody. And there's still. Depending on where you live, much of the United States is doing pretty well with that, but we need the whole world, right? It's gotta be everybody. It can't just be, it just won't work. If it's just a select small group, it might protect you a little bit. I mean, getting your vaccine. Yes. We'll protect you. But if we don't have everybody, then we still have more strains coming out and all of that. But it was just such a, the feeling in the air is just so different than what it was with this feeling of uncertainty and fear and just heaviness that there was for last year. Mark: Yes. Well, certainly getting the vaccine was a complete mind changer for me. I didn't realize how oppressive the weight of the pandemic had become, because of course I was used to it, it had been going on for months and months. But when I finally got the vaccination, the second vaccination and realized that I can't catch the disease or that it's very vanishingly unlikely that I can catch the disease. I just felt so relieved and so free. Yucca: Wow. Yeah, I, after my 15 minute observation time I went out and had to just sit in my car and cry before I could drive home. Right. it was just, I didn't even know that that much. I'm getting teary, even thinking about now, knowing that there was that much stress and just held up, that was suddenly released. It was this is amazing. Mark: Yeah, it really  Yucca: can't, you know, and for me personally, I was. never concerned about my own health. Right. I know that there would always have been the case that chance that I could have gotten very ill from it. But if I had gotten it personally, You know, I'm in very good health. I probably would have been okay. But the fear of my family members or just anyone, I didn't want anyone to get it. You know, I never wanted to be that vector. And having the shot made, it was just such a relief and it was so. It was a release of that is if that fear.  Mark: Yes. And science being magical, right? I mean, the scientific application is applied to us and suddenly this tremendous cloud lifts off from us psychologically. So, you know, it's very much in line with our sort of understanding of science being amazing and transformational. We were going to talk some about Paganism in relation to the COVID pandemic and the reopening. And I guess my biggest focus is just on being able to do in-person rituals. I'm really excited about that in person feasts in person, of course, that all depends on my housing situation, which don't get me started. But. What are some other implications you think Yucca: They're variations on the theme, the themes we've already been talking about, but the increased sense of connection. And I don't know how much of this was just me tuning more into the community this year, or how much of it was the community, online, growing, and becoming more engaged and having more conversations. But it just seemed like at least within the non theist Pagan community, there was just such tremendous growth over the past year.  Mark: Yes. Yeah. There really has been a big flowering. And I think that a lot of that has been because if the only community you're going to get is online, then you're really going to look for people that are of like-mind and environments, where people are supportive and kind and so forth. Interesting. You know, having conversations that are of interest to you Yucca: I think that a lot of this gave the opportunity for us to really pause and do what actually matters because we were forced to, we were forced out of our regular patterns that, and when you're in your regular pattern, it can be really hard to stop and really evaluate and have the space to do that. And everybody was forced to stop in some way.  Mark: Yes. Yes. And I think that's one reason why the whole work world is not going to go back to the way that it was before COVID because there are a lot of employees out there who are going to think, you know, actually I value spending more time with my kids more than I do going into an office every day. And now that it's been established that remote work is possible, productive, profitable. There's just no argument that employers can make for those kinds of jobs that are able to do that against letting somebody come in fewer days or whatever it is. I expect that, especially in some of the big cities where there's a lot of technology industry, the commercial real estate industry is just going to tank. Because all of those businesses are going to downsize their office size. They're not going to need a little office or, you know, a floor full of cubicles or whatever it is for people who can be working remotely just as easily. And I think that's great. I think it, it's better adaptive to what people really want and that contributes to less stress and more happiness. And I'm all for that. Yucca: Yeah. There's so much, it's going to be, there's going to be scholars whose field is 2020 in 2021. What happened? How did this change at all?  Mark: you bet the great pandemic of the 21st century. We hope  Yucca: yeah.  Mark: so. A lot of 21st century left. Yucca: Let's hope it's not like the world war where we get to call it the first pandemic, world pandemic one. Yeah. I mean, but it, my hope also, you know, moving forward is that. I really hope that we learned a lot on a local level and on federal levels and on the teamwork between nations as well on how to handle this on a really big scale. Mark: I sure hope so. I really hope so because it, this pandemic got bobbled in a lot of ways, you know, nations that should have been, that had the technical resources that had the. You know, that had like the CDC and the world health organization, all that kind of stuff. Those institutions should have been in a better position than they were. And that was not an accident. Those were deliberate policy decisions that were made that undermined our capacity to deal with a pandemic like this. And then one came along. And so I certainly hope that in retrospect, we become much more vigilant about this kind of threat because an awful lot of people died and they died alone because they were contagious. And I mean, it's a miserable way to go and it was miserable for their families and it's just tragic. So. What else? Oh, I wanted to announce a couple of events.  Yucca: Oh, great.  Mark: yeah. The atheopagan Facebook group is sponsoring a Sex Salon next Saturday, June 5th which will be at 3:30 PM on Pacific daylight time. And that is a, it's a place where people come to talk about issues with sex and gender and you know, how they affect us personally, how we see them societally and the primary focus of this episode will this event, this is the second one of these that we've done. And we're looking at doing one every month. This one is a focus on what is a Pagan  approach to sexuality. What is, you know, if everybody in the world were Pagan how would that look different and how would our individual lives be different? How would our society look different? So that's where the conversation will start, but the conversation is always very interesting and fluid and it wanders all over the place. So, we had a fascinating very , moving heartwarming and really interesting conversation last time. Yeah. So I invite people to go to w we'll put a link to the Facebook event in the podcast notes. If people want to check that out. We're also going to do another Death Cafe which isn't scheduled yet, but we're looking at doing it in July and Alexandra Palmer is a once again, I'm sorry, Phillips is once again, going to help lead us in that. She's a death doula, who's a member of the community. And so she's going to help with that as well. So keep your eyes out for that to talk about all things, death related. We specialize in shallow and unimportant topics for our... Yucca: I mean, that's what you were covering some some pretty big ones there.  Mark: yeah. Yeah. Big stuff. But it's important to talk about in our culture really doesn't want to, not in any  Yucca: not directly.  Mark: Yeah. It does a lot of innuendo, a lot of talking around lot of  Yucca: Advertising  Mark: yeah, and a lot of just very unproductive allusion to sex and death, but not really confronting the sort of deep human elements of those things. So wanted to make sure that everybody knew about those. The Atheopagan Facebook group does have a mixer on Saturdays every Saturday at 10:15 (AM) Pacific time. And you're welcome to join us for that as well. We always have new folks poking their head in and checking it out. And we really invite you do that. We can put a link to that in the podcast notes as well. Let me see what else? Oh I was talking about the Free Spirit Gathering.  Yucca: That's right. That's coming up.  Mark: That is coming up. So that is on the, is it the 20th? I'm going to look it up right  Yucca: I believe we are speaking on the 19th.  Mark: 19th. Okay. It's on Saturday, the 19th  Yucca:  4:00 PM. Pacific 7:00 PM. Eastern.  Mark: Yes. And you can go to www.fsgonline.org to register for that event to see the schedule of the presentations that are there. We are on, as we said, at four o'clock Pacific time five o'clock mountain, six o'clock central seven o'clock Eastern, and it will be a panel on Godless Paganism. And it's a really great group of people that'll be on the panel. At least I like to think so. It includes two of us. And also Bonnie who does the Sedna Woo YouTube channel, which is delightful if you haven't ever seen it on atheist witchery. John Cleveland Host who is the editor of the naturalistic paganism blog. And John Halstead, who is the editor of the Godless Paganism anthology, and has written extensively about atheist paganism.  So, there it'll be the five of us and people asking questions and us answering questions about what is this whole non theist paganism thing about. Yucca: That's right. So it should be a lot of fun.  Mark: It should be a lot of fun and it's virtual, so they can't actually throw anything at it. Yucca: So. That's a lot of announcements and it. has been a good conversation. So thank you,  Mark: It has. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. Yucca. It's always good to talk with you.

Adam Crowley in for Mark Today!

Dejan in for Mark Today! This hour is dedicated to Steelers football, Including an interview with Dale Lolley (Editor & Steelers' Writer for DK Sports) discussing the Steelers' draft needs

Dejan in for Mark Today! This hour is dedicated to Steelers football, Including an interview with Dale Lolley (Editor & Steelers' Writer for DK Sports) discussing the Steelers' draft needs

Adam Crowley in for Mark Today with Scott Burnside (Covers the NHL for the Athletic.com) Joining him in this hour.

Adam Crowley in for Mark Today, this hour Seth Rorabaugh (Covers the Penguins for the TRIB) Joins Adam on Air

Adam Crowley in for Mark Today with Scott Burnside (Covers the NHL for the Athletic.com) Joining him in this hour.

Adam Crowley in for Mark Today, this hour Seth Rorabaugh (Covers the Penguins for the TRIB) Joins Adam on Air

Tim Benz in for Mark Today! - Starling Marte Traded - Matt Williamson ("Our Football Guru" Former NFL/College Football Scout now Analyst on Steelers Nation Radio and Claytonfootball.com) Joins Tim on air To Discuss the State of the Steelers, Superbowl Sunday, and more! - Coast to Coast

Tim Benz in for Mark Today! - Starling Marte Traded - Matt Williamson ("Our Football Guru" Former NFL/College Football Scout now Analyst on Steelers Nation Radio and Claytonfootball.com) Joins Tim on air To Discuss the State of the Steelers, Superbowl Sunday, and more! - Coast to Coast

Dejan Kovacevic in for Mark Today! - Steelers and the Playoffs - Gerry Dulac (Covers Steelers and NFL for PGH Post Gazette, Co Host of Steelers Radio Network Pre Game Show) Join's DK this Week to discuss the State of the Steelers - Steelers and the Playoffs

Dejan Kovacevic in for Mark Today! - Steelers and the Playoffs - Gerry Dulac (Covers Steelers and NFL for PGH Post Gazette, Co Host of Steelers Radio Network Pre Game Show) Join's DK this Week to discuss the State of the Steelers - Steelers and the Playoffs

Dejan Kovacevic of Dkpittsburghsports.com covering for Mark Today! DK starts the conversation discussing the latest Pirates Club House Moves and what it may mean for Niel Huntington - Bob Nutting’s Statement on the “resignation” of Pirates’ President and COO, Frank Coonelly - The Pirates’ Biggest Shortcoming!

Dejan Kovacevic of Dkpittsburghsports.com covering for Mark Today! DK starts the conversation discussing the latest Pirates Club House Moves and what it may mean for Niel Huntington - Bob Nutting's Statement on the “resignation” of Pirates' President and COO, Frank Coonelly - The Pirates' Biggest Shortcoming!

Dejan Kovacevic of DKsportspittsburgh.com in for Mark Today! - Officiating in pro sports is Better Than Ever...do you agree? - Chris Carter (Covers Steelers NFL for DKpittsburghSports.com) Joins DK on air! - DK takes calls on Officiating in Pro Sports

Dejan Kovacevic of DKsportspittsburgh.com in for Mark Today! - Officiating in pro sports is Better Than Ever...do you agree? - Chris Carter (Covers Steelers NFL for DKpittsburghSports.com) Joins DK on air! - DK takes calls on Officiating in Pro Sports

Dejan Kovacevic in for Mark Today! - Who's a player you were wrong about? - Matt Williamson ("Our Football Guru" Former NFL/College Football Scout now Analyst on Steelers Nation Radio and Claytonfootball.com) Joins Mark To Discuss the State of the Steelers - More calls on who callers were wrong about at first.

Dejan Kovacevic in for Mark Today! - Who's a player you were wrong about? - Matt Williamson ("Our Football Guru" Former NFL/College Football Scout now Analyst on Steelers Nation Radio and Claytonfootball.com) Joins Mark To Discuss the State of the Steelers - More calls on who callers were wrong about at first.

Tim Benz in for Mark Today! Starting with a sound byte from Tomlin on who the QB will be - Tim takes calls on the Steelers - Dave Hanson (Former Pro Hockey Player and Slap Shot Star) Joins Tim on Air to talk about the filming of the Movie, 70s night and more! - More sound bytes on Tomlin's QB discussion

Tim Benz in for Mark Today! Starting with a sound byte from Tomlin on who the QB will be - Tim takes calls on the Steelers - Dave Hanson (Former Pro Hockey Player and Slap Shot Star) Joins Tim on Air to talk about the filming of the Movie, 70s night and more! - More sound bytes on Tomlin's QB discussion

Adam Crowley Covering for Mark Today! - The "Steelers' Circus" dissipates when AB leaves - Arthur Moats (former Steelers' Linebacker, now with Steelers Nation Radio) Joins Adam on Air to discuss the Steelers Defense, Camp Wrap up, and the overall standings in the AFC North - Adam Takes a call!

Adam Crowley Covering for Mark Today! - The "Steelers' Circus" dissipates when AB leaves - Arthur Moats (former Steelers' Linebacker, now with Steelers Nation Radio) Joins Adam on Air to discuss the Steelers Defense, Camp Wrap up, and the overall standings in the AFC North - Adam Takes a call!

Dejan Kovacevic Covering for Mark Today! - The Separation between the players and the organization - John Perrotta(Our Go-To Baseball Guy, Owner and Operator of the Perrotto Report covering MLB and Pirates Baseball) Joins DK On Air - Giving credit to Players regardless of the organization's lack of action

Dejan Kovacevic Covering for Mark Today! - The Separation between the players and the organization - John Perrotta(Our Go-To Baseball Guy, Owner and Operator of the Perrotto Report covering MLB and Pirates Baseball) Joins DK On Air - Giving credit to Players regardless of the organization's lack of action

Dejan Kovacevic (of https://www.dkpittsburghsports.com/) covering for Mark Today starts the conversation by discussing the immediate future of the Penguins - Dejan explores independent trade options - Penguin's team roles and how star players may need help with muscle - Dejan takes trade suggestions from callers.

Dejan Kovacevic (of https://www.dkpittsburghsports.com/) covering for Mark Today starts the conversation by discussing the immediate future of the Penguins - Dejan explores independent trade options - Penguin's team roles and how star players may need help with muscle - Dejan takes trade suggestions from callers.

In today's Throwback Thursday episode of the Support is Sexy podcast -- which was episode 2, yes, TWO, of the podcast -- we hear from social entrepreneur, activist and media maven JLove Calderon on forgiving yourself of past mistakes and deciding what your story is going to be TODAY. How will you make your mark in the world? Hear from other inspiring women entrepreneurs at supportissexy.com.

Tim Benz in for Mark Today! - Steelers Off Season - Joe Rutter (Reporter for @triblive and @tribsports, specializing in covering @steelers. Former beat was covering @pirates and lots of losses for Pittsburgh Tribune-Review) Joins Tim ON air to Talk Steelers - Josh Bell hitting balls into the Allegheny River

Tim Benz in for Mark Today! - Steelers Off Season - Joe Rutter (Reporter for @triblive and @tribsports, specializing in covering @steelers. Former beat was covering @pirates and lots of losses for Pittsburgh Tribune-Review) Joins Tim ON air to Talk Steelers - Josh Bell hitting balls into the Allegheny River

Tim Benz In for Mark Today! - Mark Madden Calls In! - Mike Rupp (Former Ice Hockey Centre, Now NHL Analyst for NHL Network and ATT Sports Network) Joins Tim on Air to Talk Playoffs - Pro Athletes and Social Media

Tim Benz In for Mark Today! - Mark Madden Calls In! - Mike Rupp (Former Ice Hockey Centre, Now NHL Analyst for NHL Network and ATT Sports Network) Joins Tim on Air to Talk Playoffs - Pro Athletes and Social Media

Dejan Kovacevic of https://www.dkpittsburghsports.com In for Mark Today! - What do the Steelers need to Do to regain there Fanhood - Gerry Dulac (Covers Steelers and NFL for PGH Post Gazette, Co Host of Steelers Radio Network Pre Game Show) Joins DK this Week to discuss the State of the Steelers - DK Takes calls on the Steelers

Dejan Kovacevic of https://www.dkpittsburghsports.com In for Mark Today! - What do the Steelers need to Do to regain there Fanhood - Gerry Dulac (Covers Steelers and NFL for PGH Post Gazette, Co Host of Steelers Radio Network Pre Game Show) Joins DK this Week to discuss the State of the Steelers - DK Takes calls on the Steelers

Dejan Kovacevic of www.dkpittsburghsports.com In for Mark Today! - Leadership Differences Between Ben Roethlisberger and Sidney Crosby - Craig Wolfley (Steelers' Radio Network Sideline Reporter, Radio Host, Podcaster, Craigwolfley.com) Joins Dejan on Air to Discuss Ben's comments on James Washington and More on the Steelers - Differences in Culture between Hockey and Football

Dejan Kovacevic of www.dkpittsburghsports.com In for Mark Today! - Leadership Differences Between Ben Roethlisberger and Sidney Crosby - Craig Wolfley (Steelers' Radio Network Sideline Reporter, Radio Host, Podcaster, Craigwolfley.com) Joins Dejan on Air to Discuss Ben's comments on James Washington and More on the Steelers - Differences in Culture between Hockey and Football

Tim Benz In for Mark Today! - After Yesterday's Penguin's Win are you feeling confident in them or nah? - Gerry Dulac (Covers Steelers and NFL for PGH Post Gazette, Co Host of Steelers Radio Network Pre Game Show) Join's Tim this Week to discuss the State of the Steelers - Penguin's Goal Tending Sitch

Tim Benz In for Mark Today! - After Yesterday's Penguin's Win are you feeling confident in them or nah? - Gerry Dulac (Covers Steelers and NFL for PGH Post Gazette, Co Host of Steelers Radio Network Pre Game Show) Join's Tim this Week to discuss the State of the Steelers - Penguin's Goal Tending Sitch

Tim Benz (Host of the Steelers' Pre-Game Show and Columnist for Trib Sports) Covers for Mark Today! - Is Crosby a Better Hockey Player than Lemieux? - Jonathan Bombulie (Covers The Penguins & The NHL for the Trib Review) Joins Tim on Air to Discuss Sidney Crosby's 400th Goal - The Patriots and The Media

Tim Benz (Host of the Steelers' Pre-Game Show and Columnist for Trib Sports) Covers for Mark Today! - Is Crosby a Better Hockey Player than Lemieux? - Jonathan Bombulie (Covers The Penguins & The NHL for the Trib Review) Joins Tim on Air to Discuss Sidney Crosby's 400th Goal - The Patriots and The Media

Adam Crowley Covering for Mark Today! - Sidney Crosby Needs His 400th Goal Already - Jason Mackey (Penguins' Beat Writer for the Post Gazette) Joins Adam for some Hockey Talk - The Steelers' Coaches

Adam Crowley Covering for Mark Today! - Sidney Crosby Needs His 400th Goal Already - Jason Mackey (Penguins' Beat Writer for the Post Gazette) Joins Adam for some Hockey Talk - The Steelers' Coaches

Pr. Scott Abel Mark 13:28-37

Pr. Scott Abel Mark 13:28-37

Tim, Mark & Marisol Interview 00:00 Tim: When you rape a child, you lose rights forever. That’s it! You lose rights forever. Somehow we don’t understand this. And again, you can serve your sentence and everything else, but you still have lost rights. One of those rights you lose is you don’t get to travel around the world with anonymity. We are going to talk about where you are. We are going to watch you. Is that so unreasonable? I mean, the argument is that, well if they travel to some place like Iran and we tell the Iranian Government, they might kill him. Well, you know what, that is his choice to travel to Iran after raping children. Don’t rape kids! How about that?! Let’s start with that. 00:36 Mark: If you do it twice, we are sending you to Iran with a big tag on your head, ‘I rape kids’. 00:40 Tim: That should be the punishment, right? That should be the sentence. 00:42 Marisol: We do that for terrorism and we give up their rights that way. It should be no different. Intro 00:50 You are listening to Slave Stealer. 00:54 Tim: It is a world I know and understand better than most people, because you don’t even know how real and how huge it is. There have been laws put in place to protect kids, and one of the laws - surprise, surprise - is that you can’t sell them. If you guys are traffickers, you have come in just like this. This is what happens, this is the core of the problem. Tim: Marisol, thank you for joining us on Slave Stealer podcast. Marisol: Oh, it’s my pleasure. Tim: Marisol Nichols is our friend, and actress, and social activist. She has been on ‘Criminal Minds’, ‘24’, ‘Blind Justice’, ‘NCIS’ - all these cop shows. Does that have anything to do...or is that just a coincidence with your passion to fight crime?   Marisol: I am sure it does. I am sure it does. I did so much resource playing different kinds of cop roles and agent roles and stuff that it just kind of, by default, dealt with me into this world.   Tim: Tell us about your foundation, and we’ll talk about how we met and what we are doing together with you. Marisol: Sure! So I have got involved in trafficking maybe three or four years ago, and the whole reason I started my foundation was... Well, there are a couple of reasons. One was, like, the more I learned, the more I found out about it, the more I was like, "I have to do something." I can not do something. It can’t be something that I can sit back and say, "Those poor people over there, how horrible for them." That’s… I can’t sleep at night unless I do something. And there were many, many, many nights that I wouldn’t sleep because the more I learned, the more, you know, horrific it is. So forming my own foundation - it was sort of a natural thing that came out of meeting with different organizations and legislators - you know, the people that live and work in this field - to see how I could help, what could I do. I have, you know, many, many friends in the business, both in front of the camera and behind the camera, and anyone and everyone I would talk to were like, “What can I do? How can I help?” And because of that is how I started doing these briefings and big events, educating a particular audience about what is happening not only in our world and on our planet, but also in our own backyard. Tim: So, question for you, because I don’t know the answer to this question but it bugs me. I mean, this is the greatest plague on the planet. There is nothing worse than this and yet, we, our presidential candidates, aren’t talking about it. It is kind of still a vague word, you know, people, trafficking… What is going on? Why can’t people see it? Marisol: Two reasons. And I don’t actually even blame people for not seeing - I blame the people that are in charge of our entertainment. I blame...I really do, I truly do, because I think that we have created a world where we can’t get purposely distracted by Kardashians and social media and whatever other things that they want coming down the line as a buzzword of the week. So we don’t pay attention to what is really really going on. And that our news channels are not very forthcoming - some of them are really wonderfully, will do pieces on it and pieces on it, but to me, like you said, is nowhere near fit to what is needed. And I am sure that you have had this strange [inaudbile] that when you do meet people that find out about it, their world is completely rocked and they are completely changed and they want to help. Tim: Yep. Marisol: And I honestly believe that there are, you know, certain forces out there that don’t want to see this end. Mark: Name names. Marisol: Well look, who is profiting? I mean, you can follow money: who makes the most money from this? Whether it is sex slavery or labor bondage or what. Who is making money from this? And you can trace it back and trace it back. And Tim hit it right on the head - why aren’t our presidential candidates talking about this? This is a huge issue; it is bigger than anything. Tim: Yeah. Marisol: He is right. Why isn’t there a giant spotlight on who is profiting from that? Who is benefitting and keeping people enslaved? Tim: It boggles my mind, but I do believe like you believed it - if we can get people to see it and they become converts, our politicians will have to start talking about it if there is a demand for that subject.   Marisol: Exactly. Tim: And we are not yelling loud enough yet. We are trying to yell loud and be a voice for these victims. Now you got to come with us - we took you down to visit some of the victims that we had rescued in Haiti, and then on our way back we stopped in an unnamed city. Marisol actually went undercover with us, and... Tell me, tell me about the whole experience, how you felt seeing those kids. And then, I mean, you kind of got this cool experience where you got to see these victims and, all of a sudden, you are thrown into this - one of the people who travels and abuses these kids, one of the partakers. What was that like?     Marisol: It is haunting because it is one thing to read about the issue, talk about the issue, hear the stories, look at videos; it is another thing to see it firsthand, and particularly meeting the abuser... I mean, this was... You know, you wouldn’t recognize him down the street. You’d think this is your college guy, this is your neighbor, this is your… You know, he looks like an everyday Joe. And the casualness in which he would talk about doing these things to girls was astonishing and also heart-breaking. You realize that these are human beings, right? You realize that you are talking about someone’s sister, someone’s daughter, someone’s mother, one day hopefully...   Tim: Yeah. Marisol: And it was....you know, it was haunting because you go, “Ok, that is the mindset that allows this to occur.” That is the mindset - partyyy, woohoo, or whatever it is. It was haunting; it stayed with me. Tim: And can you tell us...what was the role you were playing? You were awesome, by the way, and it was obviously natural. You know, it’s funny... People think like, you know, like undercover operators... Just because you are a cop, you think you are going to be good in undercover work. It is not true. And when I was in the law enforcement, it was difficult to find good undercover operators because, again, it is not inherent to a police officer. It is more an actor or actresses, and that is where you were being able to pull it up. So, tell us what role you played in that?   Marisol: Yeah. So, I was playing the person who sets up the sex parties basically, who sets up the situation for men to come and abuse these girls. You know, it was very, very like spur of the moment. I think we had, what, half an hour to plan it or something. Tim: Yeah. Marisol: You know, when I saw that the only way I am going to pull this off with this guy is if I pretend to be one of those people that just don’t care. Mark: What did you do? Give me some lines. Marisol: You know, I have... I did things like, “Hey, yeah, you know, it’s all good.” Tim: Yeah, she was sitting like really sexy, like just loosey-goosey. It was perfect. And the guy was like watching her more than anything else, and he understands that she will be able to get girls for us, better than we can get them on our own. Marisol: One of the facts that I was surprised to learn about is that some of the traffickers are girls - they are. And they lower young girls just as men do. Tim: Even better. Mark: Let’s say you get a big role as a trafficker on a film coming out in a couple of years. What do you do to prepare? Marisol: It is interesting because prior to coming into this world, you know that there are evil people out there, but you think, you know, you just don’t have that much reality. And then playing the trafficker or playing someone like this...now I’ve started to play some sort of, you know, one or two bad guys here and there, and I am like, “Oh no, no, no, it is 100% evil with no remorse and no feeling and no nothing.” That is how you would have to be to do this. You have to be one of those people, that ‘there is nothing left’. Tim: You are looking into their eyes when you see these people - I mean there is no soul. I mean, it is like past feeling. It is just unbelievable. Like the woman we have talked about, the trafficker, the beauty queen, who was going and luring these girls at 9, 10 years old, telling them that she will teach them to be famous. She is famous, she is also in music videos, and the families were sending their kids with her. And she is going and selling them to us who she believed were men coming down to violate. And Marisol, you talked about this guy we met and you played your undercover role... I mean, I am literally sitting here, we are late for the podcast, I have twenty dudes sitting here, and they look just like that guy. I mean, I have a couple - I am not kidding you - I have a couple right now who are coming together to abuse who they believe to be a 13, a 12-year-old and a 9-year-old. And they are all excited - they tell me what they are going to do and they both want to do it together. They will be arrested next week when they show up. Marisol: It sound like how can you not do everything you possibly can, and, like, why aren’t there writings on the streets, why aren't we talking about this? It should be on the tip of everyone’s tongue. And I believe that if we did, it really would end it fast.   Tim: Yes. And the problem is this concept that people think, "Well, I have heard of it, but law enforcement is taking care of it. The government can take care of it." And not to slam the government, but it is too big of a problem. There are 30 million plus slaves, depending on what numbers you look at, 2 million at least or more, probably, kids in the sex slave industry. If people knew… And it reminds me of the slavery in the 19th century where it was the same thing. They were not talking about it. It was just like people knew what was happening, but: "Oh, the government will take care of that." It wasn’t until people learned through, like, abolitionists like Frederick Douglass, Harriet Tubman, and Harriet Beecher Stowe who wrote "Uncle Tom’s Cabin." It wasn’t until the people rose up and it got so loud that the government said, “Oh crap, we better do more, we better do something.” And then you start to stop it. We can do it, we can stop it! Marisol: And it comes down to people demanding that the government do something about it. These are just demands that it will end, and it will end it. But you need multitudes and multitudes of people demanding, showing more, and educating others to really put an end to this. But it can be done. I believe you, 100% it can be done. Mark: I have a question, Marisol. In your dealings with trafficking, who were the good guys? Why don’t we just start shouting out people that are amazing? You may have worked with them directly or not, you have known them or are friends of yours. Marisol: Yeah, ok! Well, first of all, Tim, Tim Ballard, whom I met at Osborne - for sure, 100% top of the list. Tim: Thank you, you are so nice. Marisol: What they do is incredible. And I have mentioned it before, but it is when you first learn about this, you are, “Let’s go get the kids. Can we just go and just get the kids?” And that is what they do. Mark: Yes. Marisol: And I mean that is vital. There is, obviously, a lot more they are doing. There are so many people doing this particular fight. There is Kim Biddle, from an organization called Saving Innocence in Los Angeles, that has dedicated her life. She is this beautiful, brilliant, brilliant girl, gorgeous, and she has dedicated her entire life to saving girls from trafficking and then rehabilitating them and seeing it through, like seeing it all the way through - not put them in a home and walk away, but seeing all the way through until the girl graduate from the home, goes to college and has her entire life back. She is dedicated. Mark: More influencers... Anyone in your world, acting world? Who are the good guys in trafficking? Marisol: There was this one movement that Sean Penn and other celebs got involved in and it was quick, but it really made a difference. It was "Real Men Don't Buy Girls." I don’t know if you remember that, but it was a whole Twitter and hashtag thing, and they got giant celebs to do this. And I thought it was really effective because people look up to actors, musicians, incredible artists as opinion leaders. For these guys to stand up there and say real men don’t buy girls... I thought it setted up a little bit which was really, really good to set a precedent of like, "Hey, who are we looking at that really does this?" and maybe, maybe make someone think twice about it. There needs to be more. I mean, just to be honest, we need more shows focusing on it. We need more episodes of crime shows focusing on it and really telling the stories. On "Law and Order: SVU," they have done a fairly good job on that because that is their ‘Sexual Victims Unit’ - that is the entire title of the show - but I believe we need more.  And recently - I don’t know if you saw "Room," but "Room" did a really good job of taking you through a girl’s experience, what it would be like to be trapped and under the control of someone else who is monitoring your every single move. I don’t know if you know the story, but she was trapped for seven years and had a baby by the trafficker and eventually escaped. And this particular story in this movie did such a good job. But it is based on so many cases of girls being trapped in the exact same way, having children from their traffickers, all of it… And it really... I thought they painted a really great picture of what it is like for the victim, and they do sort of wake up, like, “Wait, this exists. This happened.”       Mark: Are there certain writers or studios or groups that do a better job of talking about trafficking, and are they getting the ratings when they do it? Marisol: That is a really good question. There are definitely episodes that focus on it, but not anyone where I can, “Oh yeah, this particular writer," or, "Fox is dedicating an entire series to this,” or anything like that. It is still not there. And, like anything right now, it is just an episode or two that would be dedicated to it rather than an entire show. Is that make sense? But when they do air, they make just as equal ratings as they would any other crime, because it usually goes on crime shows. What I would like to see is that at the end of those things, "To find out more, go to www..." or statistics. Mark: Yes. Marisol: Or, like, “Hey, this is actually based on a real case,” to get the audience going, “I had no idea.” Because anything that is based on real life events will always get more interest. Mark: Do you feel like we speak about trafficking correctly? In general, how it is messaged? How should it be messaged in your opinion, if you were PR for the movement? Marisol: If I was PR for the movement, I would call it slavery. I would call it modern-day slavery and I would make sure that it was on the forefront of everything. And I would really, really, really validate the people who rescue the kids - not only OUR, but also police officers, FBI agents, sheriffs...because when I would tell people, they would go, “Why isn’t the police doing anything about it?” I am like, “Because the police is the same people who have to respond to a burglary, to a murder, to a cat caught up in the tree, to all of it.”     Mark: Yeah. Marisol: And I think if we started validating more and more the officers and sheriffs and agents that are focusing on this, and on getting results, freeing girls, and, most importantly, putting the traffickers away... I think the more validation you give that, or anything, the more of that we will get. Mark: Yeah. Marisol: You know, there is a fascination with murder. You know, there are a thousand TV shows about murder, about this, and I have been in all of them, so I do know. And I think we need to shift our focus, because, for one, I think you get whatever you validate. So, if you validate that, you are going to get more of it. We can use that to our advantage and validate those guys that are doing this, and not only getting the girls, but arresting those traffickers and making sure it sticks. Because it is not easy. And I know this from law enforcement, I know this from meeting with different legislators, and all of that. It is that trafficking is not an easy thing to prosecute.   Mark: It is not. Marisol: It is crazy to me, and I have certain ideas that I am working with to make it a lot easier and what I think could be done. But we will get to that whenever you are at that point of the program.   Mark: Well no, if you have certain ideas, let those out. Marisol: What is hard, at least in this country, is you have to get a victim to testify against her trafficker and the johns just walk free: "Well, she approached me," or, "I don’t know… answered an ad," blah blah blah… There is an existing law in the book called statutory rape that doesn’t matter if the girl was consensual or not. It doesn’t matter at all. So if you would start prosecuting johns and traffickers with statutory rape, you don’t have to get the girl to go through a whole testimony, and how he forced her, anything. Is she under the age of 17 or not? Tim: Yeah. Marisol: That... It is done. And when you start prosecuting johns and traffickers with rape, that is a different story now. Tim: Yeah. Marisol: And charging traffickers, by the way, with facilitation of late, where you are creating an environment, where a girl can be raped extremely easily, should be under the age of 17, it is done. Tim: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. In fact, a lot of our approaches to this is all about figuring out how to prosecute these cases without needing to put the victim on the stand. These victims are so... They have been so terrorized and so rewired. For their own well-being, you don’t want to put them on the stand to have them have to relive this. Also, they are not the best witnesses because they do not know who they are, they don’t know who to trust. And so, this solution of prosecuting different crimes to get around that is one approach. Something we are doing, especially in foreign countries, is we do these sting operations and film everything. And they don’t really do that, especially in developing nations. We film every part, from the day we meet the trafficker until we buy the kid. And so, at the end of the day, we just give a hard drive to the prosecutor, and it is like they are watching the movie, and they say, “We don’t need to put the kid on the stand because we have the true intent of this trafficker from seventeen different angles."    Marisol: Yeah. And you know, Tim, I have had these conversations with Lieutenant Mark Evans, who is head of all Los Angeles Vice and all of the trafficking in Los Angeles on the Valley side, and he is like, “We would do this if the DA/district attorney would prosecute.” So my next step is to meet with DA and go, “Would you prosecute them?” Because all depends on are they going to prosecute a case like that or not. The cops can actually charge them with anything that they want, so if we just start instilling the mindset... And also johns... Can we just take a moment about the customers? Because if, right now - and I don’t know if this is the case all over, but at least in California, you know - let’s say there is a 12-year-old-girl. Someone answered an ad on Backpage and went to a motel and had sex with the 12-year-old girl. And the guy is 55 years old - he gets a slap on the wrist and he goes to john school and he gets a misdemeanor and gets it wiped from his record, just like traffic school. I don’t understand - how that is ok? Tim: Yeah… It is not ok. Marisol: And if we started prosecuting the johns with statutory rape, and you advertise that, you are going to take away the demand a lot faster. Tim: Absolutely. Marisol: Because people don’t like to be charged with rape by any means. But right now, there is no consequence. Tim: Yeah. Marisol: There is no consequence. They walk free. It doesn’t matter. So there are mindsets and things that can be changed within our already existing laws, at least in this country, that I believe can go a long way towards making a difference. Continuing with the customers... And then, as the johns get arrested and as they do get prosecuted, or even just arrested, why are we protecting them? If you look on the back of a newspaper, or whatever, you can read like who got arrested for what, drunk driving, blah blah blah blah, but you can get arrested for this and it is not there.    Tim: Yeah. Marisol: So I think we should make the johns, particularly the rich white guys, pay for a billboard with their face and their mugshot in their neighborhood. Tim: The Queen of Sweden did this. She did this thing where if you got caught trying to have sex with a child, you got your face plastered on a billboard for everyone to see. And guess what happened? They stopped. They stopped soliciting kids in Sweden. They left. It is exactly what we need to do. Marisol: Exactly. Tim: Unfortunately, there are a lot of groups out here who would stop us from doing that. Trying, worrying about child rapist rights. Marisol: It is insane to me. And I think, I honestly believe, Tim, that if we could get the certain people in the government that are not scared of that, we could push something like that through. But what I have run into in meeting on the local state and federal level is you get guys that are just, "Oh no, we can’t do that. We will be fought,” and they don’t even try. But I believe if you would try hard enough, we could push something like that through just based on the statistics alone that you ended this.      Tim: These politicians answered to the people. If we would get the people loud enough, then they would say, "Of course, I will put their face on a billboard!" Because the people are demanding it, and that is where we need to start this, right. And that is what you are doing - that is what we are doing - is trying to create this grassroots movement - get so loud that these guys have to start doing stuff like this. History tells us that they will do it if we get loud enough. Mark: You mentioned politicians that are scared, and we don’t know what the exact story is on H.R.515 right now, which is before Congress, which is a big cause that we are going to take up.     Marisol: Which one is that? Mark: It is International Megan’s Law. Marisol: Oh great, yes! Ok. Mark: It will allow better communication between governments as bad guys travel abroad and come in. Right now, you cannot really get the information quickly enough to be actionable intelligence. Now, it went through the House, it went through the Senate, the Senate put some amendments on it, threw it back to the House - now it has a 15% passage rate. We have got a brilliant girl from the Podcast Congressional Web that just dissects bills. She is amazing.    Marisol: Who? Who does she work for, do you know? Mark: She is, totally... It is just her, totally independent. Marisol: Oh, ok. Mark: I don’t know what her politics are. I have listened to her shows - I have no idea, which is beautiful to me. She just dissects bills and sees what the [inaudible], sees what the hold-ups are in...what day, I think February 10th, we are going to be on with her and she is going to walk us through the bill and dissect who is holding it up and why. Marisol: Great! Mark: That is going to be awesome, right? Tim: This thing has been in Congress for over a year. It is ridiculous. Now, I actually testified with [inaudible] of Utah. We testified before the House on this bill because we were so frustrated, like, “Why can’t you pass this?!” It is a place that actually creates what is called the Angel Watch Center, a center where non-profit, private groups, government groups all get together and they talk about... They bring intel together, they start communicating better. And like Mark was saying, it is a notification program. If some French child rapist/former convict comes into our country, they are going to tell us, “Hey, this guys is flying into JFK. You might want to either deny him entry or watch him,” you know. We did the same for other countries. And again, what the issue is is their rights, the criminal’s right to travel without being notified. Mark: As we start to find more about H.R.515, maybe we engage you. Marisol: I am looking at it right now and I am kind of seeing where possibly the hold-up is because they are talking about any sex offender, and what I found in the past of certain other laws was that the definition of sex offender also includes, like, the person who was caught urinating in a park drunk, and he is labeled a sex offender for the rest of his life. And they are using those cases to cause an uproar to stop the whole thing, and say it is discriminatory against them. It is a bunch of bureaucratic nonsense, but that is where I am guessing - it is a guess - some of the hold-up is. One of the things that could go a long way is we will prosecute people for aiding and abetting. If they knew about a murder or they knew about a robbery that was taken place - so they were the driver but they didn’t do it... But we don’t do this with [inaudible].     Tim: It is a great point. It is true. Marisol: That would be another angle to getting the johns going, "Hey, you knew about this?” to get prostitution illegal in this country. So, did you really answer an ad for a massage? Do you know what I mean? And cast a wider net when you can actually prosecute people for aiding and abetting, for helping along, for being an accomplice...you know, looking in terms of existent laws that we already have in the books and prosecute differently to make a bigger dent. Tim: Agreed. We could make a list and shout it out to the world: "So, here are the things that need a change," and just be loud. Get the footage, get entertainment industry, get everyone to be so loud - Harriet Beecher Stowe thing, right - and then say, "What do we do?" "Here is the list, call your congressmen, get this stuff changed." Let’s do it, we are going to do it! Alright. Thanks so much, Marisol, we will have you back soon. Marisol: Alright, thanks guys! Thanks for having me! Tim: Alright, thank you! You know, the thing done is at least there are people out there because what this requires to save kids... You have to think outside the box. Just like to get rid of slavery in America, you had to think outside the box. And the model we are proposing is this private public partnership where we need our law enforcement. They have the badges, they have their prosecutors, they have the jail system, they have the judicial system, they can do this. But the problem is, this is such a unique problem and it is so enormous you have to be proactive and creative. Because these…the bad guys are being creative, and most law enforcement agencies don’t have the wherewithal to cover the homicides, the drug dealers and all the things they have been fighting for years and years and are trained to do. And now, you have trafficking problem on top of that. It is relatively new in terms of trying to react to it and most don’t have the tools they need. And that is why I left the government. Because I recognized all the gaps in the agencies that were fighting this problem. Again, not to slam them, but there are gaps everywhere. I got turned down by half the time when I put out request to do an operation. I got shut down because of X,Y, or Z. I always kind of understood the reasons, and I thought, “Alright, I don’t see the government fixing these gaps anytime soon, so I am going to leave - start my own organization that fills those gaps.” So I can go to any agency and say, “I know your problems because I had them, and I am going to solve them for you. We will do this, this, that and the other.” And the law enforcement agencies that want to save their kids are like, “Yes, come on in!” and we go and conquer together in the private-public model.  There are other law enforcement officers who... I will not name them right now, but have them in my head right now, and I am pissed off at them. So close-minded. Mark: What did they say? Give me a conversation. Tim: "You shouldn’t be doing this work. This is just for us. This is for a SWAT law enforcement." "I was a SWAT law enforcement for 12 years, I know how to do this." "Well, you cannot do it. I do not like you doing it." “The parents of the kids, who are being abused - they like that we are doing it. And where we are working, no one is doing it." So there is no answer, no answer to it. It just the partners we work with - they are not this way. If you are this way, we don’t work with you. But you would be surprised how many come back and say that they literally gave up the opportunity to rescue more kids because of pride, because of ego, because if you don’t have a badge, you shouldn’t be consulting or helping or anything like that. They can’t see outside the box. And it is sad because kids are getting hurt. I have had a conversation, actually - and I will not name the people, the agency - but I have literally had a conversation that went like this: "So you are telling me that you or your boss would rather let these kids continue to be raped than work with a private organization that you know together we can solve the problem?" And they said, "Yes." Mark: Wow. Tim: They said yes. It wasn’t them... The person I was talking to said, “I want to do it, but yes that is... My boss has made that deliberate decision.” They don’t want to admit that they need help or that they don’t have a handle on it. It is sick, it is sad. But you know, you have all sorts of people, and the good news is that there are a whole bunch of law enforcement agencies out there and prosecutors all over the place that put the kids above everything else, and that is who we work with. Yep, that is who we work with. And there are so many of them that we don’t run out of work. So, you know, I was talking to some folks at the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children who are a wonderful asset - all law enforcement works with them on so many areas to find kids, to find child pornographers - such an amazing organization. And I was talking to them about some of my frustrations and they said, "You know what? We did the same thing." They went through the same thing in the 80’s when they created the organization. There was a major - and I won’t name the agency - a major agency in the United States government that actually put out a policy/memo to their agents, to their law enforcement, saying, "You will not work with this new National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. You will not work with them. We got this. We don’t need help."    Mark: Farm Bureau. Tim: Yeah. That was a farm bureau. You got it.    Mark: Gosh…you know, the pressure was their heyday. Tim: Between that and the Bureau of Indian Affairs, yeah... They just went...yeah, unbelievable. But now, guess what? That agency has agents in their office that work inside the National Center. And so they say, "Just don’t worry. Buck up, little Timmy. Just work with those that will work with you. And success will be built upon success." And so we just have to put the negative aside and put the haters aside and we will work with those who see the vision. And they are the best ones anyway. They are the ones who are getting it done. Mark: Today, more than any other day, in talking to you, I feel momentum. I feel really pumped. And I don’t know what you had for lunch, or what your pre-workout was, but you are on fire, man. You are going to kill it. Tim: You didn’t feel that before? Mark: I did. Tim: You jerk. Mark: I didn’t... I felt like... Tim: ...how to take a compliment and just throw it in the trash. Mark: No, listen. I have felt like you are pushing a boulder uphill before, but now I feel like the boulder is moving. You know what I am saying? Like, we were getting people and we're shedding light on the problem, but really I just feel a new energy and not sure what it is. Tim: Well, what you are feeling probably is... I am in the middle of a case. I am back in my... Mark: You are... Tim: ...I am back in my agent days right now as an employee of this law enforcement agency. It is… I have been given authorization to get back and get my hands dirty back in this. And when I do that, I get very energized. Well, friends, sign us off, Timmy. Buck up, little Timmy. Tim: Thanks for joining us, guys. Looking forward to see you again on Slave Stealer Podcast.

Mark Shapiro left a six-figure job at Showtime Networks to inspire & empower 100,000+ people to “live an authentic life they’re proud of.” He is the Host of The One & Only Podcast on iTunes, creator of the Be You authenticity workshop, and a heralded transformational trainer/coach, and speaker. You can find more about Mark and his work at http://makeyourmarktoday.com Mark Shapiro Vroom/Veer Stories Did a college internship at showtime networks, tried to learn instead of just checking off a requirement square Impressed the right people at Showtime and was offered a job right out of college Wanted to work in the creative side of showtime,  but worked in sales and marketing instead Painful divorce left him open to new personal development experiences Attended a transformational workshop where he developed a workshop of his own The "be you" authenticity workshop was a success and provided high value Realized he wanted to make a change and walked away from his six-figure job Mark Shapiro Links Make your mark today The One & Only Podcast  

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