Podcasts about bob oh

Welcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: Solomonoff induction still works if the universe is uncomputable, and its usefulness doesn't require knowing Occam's razor, published by Christopher King on June 18, 2023 on LessWrong. Note: I don't think this idea is original, but I couldn't find a good post going over the implications. I used to think that Solomonoff induction was a bit arbitrary for the following reason: it assigned a 100% probability to the universe being computable. I'm pretty sure the universe is computable (ignoring randomness), but nowhere near 100% sure. Who's to say we won't find a halting oracle floating in space for no reason? That seems like a pretty simple hypothesis. Why the focus on recursive languages. You have to make some choice of how descriptions work (you can't assign positive probability to every infinite bit string), but that didn't change the feelings of arbitrariness. But then I realized this understanding of why to use Solomonoff induction is incorrect. We do not use it because of the physical church-turing thesis, we use it because of the original church-turing thesis: L.C.M.s [logical computing machines: Turing's expression for Turing machines] can do anything that could be described as ‘rule of thumb' or ‘purely mechanical'. - Alan Turing Because what matters is not whether the universe is computable, but whether our methods of reasoning are computable. Or in other words, whether the map is computable. Solomonoff's induction is at least as "good" as any computable inference method (up to a constant), regardless of the complexity of the universe. So if you, as a human, are trying to come up with a systematic way to predict things (even uncomputable things), Solomonoff's induction is better. Here is the precise statement: Theorem: Let D be some probability distributions on infinite sequences of bits such that inferring the next bit from a prefix is computable. The likelihood ratio from D to Solomonoff induction's prior is bounded above by some finite constant (despite the sequence containing infinitely many bits), and this constant is independent of the sequence of bits. Proof sketch: (Note: this is already a well-known result.) There is a program m that is a decoder for an entropy code over finite bit strings based on D. Given any finite bit string x, we can find a y such that m(y)=x. The length of y is approximately −log2(px) (where px is the probability of a bit string starting with x according to D). The probability of a string starting with x under Solomonoff induction's prior is greater than 2−|m(y)|=2−|m|2log2(px)=px2|m|. So regardless of the content or length of |x|, the ratio is bounded by 2|m| (which only depends on D). □ (Notice how we never invoked Occam's razor to argue that Solomonoff induction is superior. We can instead go the other way; Occam's razor is good because it's an informal version of an ideal inference procedure.) Solomonoff induction v.s. a human in an uncomputable world How does this shake out in an uncomputable universe? What if you're convinced that there is some orb in the universe emitting the digits of Chaitin's constant or something? We'll let Alice be a reasoner using Solomonoff induction, and Bob be a human. Bob: Ah yes, I have found it! An orb emitting the digits of Chaitin's constant is floating around in our solar system! Alice: How do you figure? Bob: I calculated the first two digits, and they matched! Alice: Surprising! But not that surprising (about six and half bits). Bob: I was surprised too, but now I can do something better than you. I can predict the digits that orb will emit. Alice: How do you plan to predict an uncomputable sequence, given that you're a human? Bob: Oh yeah... Alice: In fact, if you're correct it will eventually look like a uniformly random sequence to you since it is algorithmically random. So I'll be able...

Link to original articleWelcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: Solomonoff induction still works if the universe is uncomputable, and its usefulness doesn't require knowing Occam's razor, published by Christopher King on June 18, 2023 on LessWrong. Note: I don't think this idea is original, but I couldn't find a good post going over the implications. I used to think that Solomonoff induction was a bit arbitrary for the following reason: it assigned a 100% probability to the universe being computable. I'm pretty sure the universe is computable (ignoring randomness), but nowhere near 100% sure. Who's to say we won't find a halting oracle floating in space for no reason? That seems like a pretty simple hypothesis. Why the focus on recursive languages. You have to make some choice of how descriptions work (you can't assign positive probability to every infinite bit string), but that didn't change the feelings of arbitrariness. But then I realized this understanding of why to use Solomonoff induction is incorrect. We do not use it because of the physical church-turing thesis, we use it because of the original church-turing thesis: L.C.M.s [logical computing machines: Turing's expression for Turing machines] can do anything that could be described as ‘rule of thumb' or ‘purely mechanical'. - Alan Turing Because what matters is not whether the universe is computable, but whether our methods of reasoning are computable. Or in other words, whether the map is computable. Solomonoff's induction is at least as "good" as any computable inference method (up to a constant), regardless of the complexity of the universe. So if you, as a human, are trying to come up with a systematic way to predict things (even uncomputable things), Solomonoff's induction is better. Here is the precise statement: Theorem: Let D be some probability distributions on infinite sequences of bits such that inferring the next bit from a prefix is computable. The likelihood ratio from D to Solomonoff induction's prior is bounded above by some finite constant (despite the sequence containing infinitely many bits), and this constant is independent of the sequence of bits. Proof sketch: (Note: this is already a well-known result.) There is a program m that is a decoder for an entropy code over finite bit strings based on D. Given any finite bit string x, we can find a y such that m(y)=x. The length of y is approximately −log2(px) (where px is the probability of a bit string starting with x according to D). The probability of a string starting with x under Solomonoff induction's prior is greater than 2−|m(y)|=2−|m|2log2(px)=px2|m|. So regardless of the content or length of |x|, the ratio is bounded by 2|m| (which only depends on D). □ (Notice how we never invoked Occam's razor to argue that Solomonoff induction is superior. We can instead go the other way; Occam's razor is good because it's an informal version of an ideal inference procedure.) Solomonoff induction v.s. a human in an uncomputable world How does this shake out in an uncomputable universe? What if you're convinced that there is some orb in the universe emitting the digits of Chaitin's constant or something? We'll let Alice be a reasoner using Solomonoff induction, and Bob be a human. Bob: Ah yes, I have found it! An orb emitting the digits of Chaitin's constant is floating around in our solar system! Alice: How do you figure? Bob: I calculated the first two digits, and they matched! Alice: Surprising! But not that surprising (about six and half bits). Bob: I was surprised too, but now I can do something better than you. I can predict the digits that orb will emit. Alice: How do you plan to predict an uncomputable sequence, given that you're a human? Bob: Oh yeah... Alice: In fact, if you're correct it will eventually look like a uniformly random sequence to you since it is algorithmically random. So I'll be able...

Sometimes "reality" TV takes it one step too far.  Sometimes two steps.  Sometimes a flying leap. WARNING:  IMPLIED VIOLENCE AND TORTURE Written and Produced by Julie Hoverson Cast List Announcer  - Frankenvox Alison - Beverly Poole Bart - Michael Faigenblum Carl - Mike Campbell Debbie - E. Vickery Ms. Sheldon - Sharon Delong Tanya - Tanja Milojevic Mom - Shayla Conrad-Simms Dad - Reynaud LeBoeuf Son - Eli Nilsson Fred - Joel Harvey Bob - Glen Hallstrom Helen - Helen Edwards June - Shelbi McIntyre Kathy - Kim Poole Additional Voices - Russell Gold; Julie Hoverson Music by Brian Bochicchio (Seraphic Panoply) Show theme:  Kevin MacLeod (Incompetech.com) Editing and Sound:   Julie Hoverson Cover Design:  Brett Coulstock   "What kind of a place is it? Why it's right here, right now, can't you tell?" ************************************************************************ IDIOT BOX Cast: [Opening credits - Olivia] TV Announcer Alison, chipper Bart, sullen Carl, upbeat, hearty Debbie, nervous, angry underneath Ms. Sheldon, executive producer Tanya, in the sound booth Family - mom, dad, teenage son Bar - Fred, Bob, Helen Dorm - June, Kathy OLIVIA     Did you have any trouble finding it?  What do you mean, what kind of a place is it?  Why, it's right here, right now, can't you tell?  MUSIC SOUND     THEME MUSIC ANNOUNCER    last week, in the record-breaking debut of The Box, we were introduced to our four contestants: ALISON    [chipper] I'm Alison, from Santa Monica.  Hi, mom! CARL    [hearty] Carl, from Atlanta - home of the Cartoon Channel!!  DEBBIE    [nervous] Debbie, from Salem.  Uh, Oregon.  [quickly] Salem Oregon. BART    [sullen] Bart, Minneapolis [disgusted sigh]. ANNOUNCER    The rules are on the screen now for all you viewers out there, to cover the formalities.  They are also available on our website at [spelled out superfast] w-w-w-dot-s-k-i-n-n-e-r-i-d-i-o-t-b-o-x-dot-com.  AMB    FAMILY LIVING ROOM SOUND    CHIPS EATEN FROM BAG ANNOUNCER    [TV] And after this brief message, we'll show you the results of last week's voting. SOUND    CLICK OF REMOTE SOUND    POPCORN POPPING IN MICROWAVE MOM    [off] You better not have turned that off, hun! SOUND    MICROWAVE DINGS DAD    Just muted.  Sick of all these ads for freaking erectile dysfunction.  If anything's going to give a guy man-trouble, it's having to watch all those damn ads. SOUND    POURING POPCORN INTO BOWL SON    Ew, dad.  T-M-I. MOM    [coming in, munching popcorn] The one I hate is that smiling guy.  His wife just looks so scared all the time.  Almost as creepy as the King. SON    Am I adopted?  Please say yes. DAD    Ooops, back on! ANNOUNCER    [TV]  Did everyone vote? MOM    I certainly did! SON    Mom?  [disgusted noise] Why? ANNOUNCER    [TV] The voting is closed, the tabulations have been made, and the scores are coming up on the screen now. MOM    [over the announcer] Why not?  I want that nice young girl - the blonde - to win.  She's very wholesome. ANNOUNCER    [TV] And it looks like today Alison has been selected!  MOM    [satisfied] There! ANNOUNCER    We have Alison in the studio now - let's see how she takes it. SOUND     LIGHT MUSIC, ON THE TV SEGUES INTO REALITY ANNOUNCER    Hello Alison!  Say hi to everyone!  ALISON    Hi!  Hi mom!  Dad! ANNOUNCER    How's the first week been treating you? ALISON    This place is great! ANNOUNCER    Throughout the show, we'll be showing some of the fun you four have been having.  Now, why don't you tell me what you think of your new friends? ALISON    Oh, wow - everyone's really great.  ANNOUNCER    Don't you find Bart a bit... isolated? ALISON    He's just self-contained.  I'm sure he's a good guy, he just doesn't open up real easily. ANNOUNCER    And Debbie? ALISON    She's shy - a lot like my sister.  Hi Vickie!! ANNOUNCER    [chuckles] That's great. ALISON    And Carl - well, he's a blast.  He's always thinking up great stuff to do. ANNOUNCER    Yesterday you had sole access to the Dairy Dan Amusement park. ALISON    Oh, man - that was awesome!  They closed the gates and we got to ride all the rides all day long - no lines, no crowds!  Woo! ANNOUNCER    You've been chosen. ALISON    Woo!  [stumbles] I - What?  What? SOUND    CONTROL BOOTH ANNOUNCER    [TV]  Please step into the box. ALISON    [TV - gasp, then steels herself]  Right.  [somewhat bitter] Thanks America. SHELDON That's the shot - tight in on 2, now 3 - yes! Keep her face centered until she shuts the door. TANYA    Got it. SHELDON Okay, keep the volume low on that. It's early yet - don't want to wear out the viewers... SOUND    [TV] ELECTRIC SHOCK NOISE, SOMEWHAT BRIEF ALISON    [TV - short scream] ANNOUNCER    [TV] We'll be right back after the break to find out what today's challenge will be. AMB    DORM ROOM JUNE    Omigod!  Omigod!  Did you see that? KATHY    [distracted] Hmm?  No but I sure heard it - did they just do what I think they did? JUNE    They just shocked the crap out of the blonde chick! KATHY    Was there actually crap? JUNE    [duh] She was in the box.  Shh.  It's coming back on. SOUND    TV TURNS UP ANNOUNCER    [TV] We'll be right back with more of The Box after these messages. SOUND    SOUND DOWN AGAIN JUNE    I hate when they do that. KATHY    Shock someone? JUNE    No, have the logo come up and make you think the show is back on. KATHY    Yeah, that's much worse. JUNE    You know what I mean!  It was totally mean that they shocked her - she's the one who got the most votes! KATHY    Isn't that what everyone was voting for? JUNE    No!  At least, I don't think so - I mean, I thought it was voting for who would win something cool.  I ...voted for her. KATHY    You actually voted? JUNE    On the website, yeah. KATHY    Of course there's a website.  Maybe you should read the fine print. JUNE    Oh, oh!  It's back on!  Jeez, look at her poor hair! SOUND    TV UP ANNOUNCER    [TV] Back to the interview room, to hear from Alison. ANNOUNCER    [real] Before we go on, I need to point out, this is the only time you can choose to leave the show.  Are you prepared to stay? ALISON    [gulps, then quiet]  Yes.  [clears her throat, louder]  Yes.  [very shaky] That wasn't so bad. ANNOUNCER    Excellent.  Now I believe you recently graduated from college, Alison.  What did you get your degree in? AMB    BAR ALISON    [TV]  I'm a liberal arts major, with a minor in art history. FRED    So she's unemployed, eh? ANNOUNCER    [TV]  And you are engaged to be married? BOB    Too bad.  All the cute ones are taken.  Even with that weird hairdo. SOUND    TV SWITCHED TO SPORTS FRED    Hey, we were watching that! HELEN    Why?  It's awful, letting them mess with people on TV like that! FRED    [scornful] It's not real.  BOB    Course it is - it even has a website! HELEN    Puh-leez.  Lots of things have websites that aren't real. BOB    Name one. HELEN    Pamela Anderson's boobs. FRED    She got you there, pal. BOB    C'mon - just switch it back long enough to see what today's challenge is?  Please? HELEN    Ya big softie, you. SOUND    TV CHANGES BACK ANNOUNCER    [TV] Carl, you got the second most votes this week - Do you have anything to say to the viewers at home?  Obviously you're doing something right, to get so many votes. CARL    [TV]  I think it's just my sunny personality, Bob.  People like winners, and I am a winner. AMB    LIVING ROOM SON    Weiner. MOM    Language! SON    [dismissive noise] Doesn't that dipstick know that most votes gets zapped? DAD    Maybe he doesn't - they might not tell THEM everything, either.  Makes sense.  Why else would they be so excited? SON    But that sucks!  That sucks big time!  Here they are, trying to be all cool and get people to vote for them, and they're like masterminding their own torture or something. DAD    It's just a game,  No one really gets hurt. MOM    Well, I was kind of upset that Alicia-- SON    Alison. MOM    Yes, that she got shocked.  I didn't know that voting for her would do that.  I kind of feel bad now. SON    Well, don't vote for her next time. MOM    I certainly won't! ANNOUNCER    [on TV] Well, we've spoken to two of our four contestants, and the voting is open for the halftime winner.  Go on line now or text to-- SOUND    TV MUTES, AMB/DORM SOUND    COMPUTER KEYS KATHY    What are you doing? JUNE    Voting. KATHY    Vicious much? JUNE    No! I - I just don't want her to have to get shocked again.  Damn!  It only lets me choose one of those two - not the other guy. KATHY    So you want to see him get shocked? JUNE    Well, no, but I like him the least. KATHY    Just cause you don't think he's cute. SOUND    ONE LAST KEY JUNE    Um, there. KATHY    So who'd you vote for? JUNE    The guy - the nice one - of course.  I like him, too, but I don't want her to get shocked again. SOUND    TV UP AGAIN ANNOUNCER    [TV] Regular text messaging fees apply.  And now‑‑ SOUND    OMINOUS MUSIC ROLLS IN ANNOUNCER    [TV, ominous] The moment in the spotlight.  Will it be Alison or Carl?  The voting closes in three minutes, so hurry up and make your vote count - if the lines are overloaded, make sure and try back - but be quick.   [normal] While we wait, let's watch some clips from the preliminary interviews with the other two contestants. MUSIC ANNOUNCER    [TV] And what are you studying? DEBBIE    [TV] I'm - um - a poli sci major. FRED    So she's gonna end up unemployed too. BOB    Whatever happened to good old trade schools? FRED    They're still around - just the trades aren't.  You seen any cobblers in the U.S. of A recently?  Nope.  It's all farmed out to Pakistan and Koala Lumper. HELEN    Lumpur. FRED    Sez you. HELEN    I can turn it off, you know. BOB    Yeah - see now Helen here's got a job that can't be farmed out - long as there's guys like us, there's always gonna be bars, eh? FRED    Until they invent a mixology robot. BOB    Hey, the lights are flashing on the screen, must be something important. SOUND    TV TURNED UP. SOUND    OMINOUS MUSIC INTENSIFIES ANNOUNCER    [TV; evil "suspense" pacing]  And the one who got the most halftime votes.  Will it be Alison, our stoic liberal arts major? JUNE    Yes, yes - come on come on!!! ANNOUNCER    [TV] Or Carl, who tutors children with learning disabilities. MOM    Oh, that's awful! SON    Awful? That he works with retarded kids? MOM    [almost a whisper] That I voted for him. ANNOUNCER    [TV] And the one who got the most votes in the 8-minute half-time poll was-- SOUND    HEAVY DRUMBEAT ANNOUNCER    [TV] Was-- SOUND    HEAVY DRUMBEAT KATHY    Look at how much she's sweating! JUNE    You'd sweat too if you just got shocked! ANNOUNCER    [TV] is -Carl! JUNE    Whew! KATHY    Shh.  Let's see what happens. ANNOUNCER    [TV] This means that at the end of tonight's show, Carl will be up against the second half winner in a showdown to see who gets a million dollars sent to the charity of their choice. HELEN    Waitaminute - she gets shocked and he gets a chance to win big bucks?  That's so not fair! FRED    That's the way it is.  Women always getting the short stick. HELEN    Especially when they're dating you, eh? BOB    [laughs, tried to stop] FRED    Yeah, yeah - you can joke now, but I'll give you 70-30 odds that the other winner is that other guy. BOB    The grouch? FRED    Yup.  Is it a bet? BOB    Fifty bucks? FRED    Whoah, whoah!  Let's not get carried away here, now. MUSIC - OPENING THEME, PLAYS FOR A MOMENT ANNOUNCER    Entering week five of The Box, you can see the ratings posted for our four contenders.  [hushed] Last week, it looked as though Debbie had finally broken-- DEBBIE    [TV] I hate it!  I hate you all! You can all just go and-- SOUND    LONG SERIES OF BLEEPED WORDS SOUND    ZAPPING AND SCREAMING UNDER NEXT LINE ANNOUNCER    But after her trip to the box, she refused to cry off. DEBBIE    [TV] [breathing heavily and gulping] No [gasp] way! [gasp]  You don't [gasp] get rid of me [long shaky breath] that easily. [sob] ANNOUNCER    And now, a new week - and what was this week's challenge? STUDIO AUDIENCE Fasting! ANNOUNCER    Yes, fasting.  Whoever could go the longest without eating even a single bite of food got a free pass this week‑‑ ANNOUNCER    [TV] --and we'll find out who managed that in just a moment - after a few words from our sponsors. SOUND    CLICK, SOUND OFF JUNE    [urging] C'mon Debbie! KATHY    Debbie?  Hah.  She's got no body fat to start with.  Bart has a much better chance of surviving-- JUNE    Don't say that!  You just like him cause you know I don't! KATHY    I root for the underdog.  It's a principal. And no one likes that poor bastard. JUNE    If no one likes him, how come Debbie's the one always getting shocked, huh?  [almost a sob] Huh? ANNOUNCER    [TV]  Let's bring our four contestants out on stage to hear who's going to be free and clear for another week.  Alison-- SOUND    MUSIC UP, DOOR OPENS, SHAKY FOOTSTEPS ANNOUNCER    [real] Alison, how are you feeling? ALISON    [trying to be perky] Not too bad.  I made it almost three whole days on nothing but water.  ANNOUNCER    But then you lost it? ALISON    [heavy sigh] Yeah, I had to give in and get something.  [resigned] I figured fine - just put me in the box.  At least that eventually ends.  ANNOUNCER    Thank you, Alison.  Now go over to the isolation booth while we talk with each of your friends. ALISON    [venomous] Friends?  Hah! ANNOUNCER    [TV, confidential] She needs to learn to be careful about trading today's pain for tomorrow's - what she doesn't know is we've [ramping up] turned the voltage up another notch! AUDIENCE    [TV, CHEERS] HELEN    This just keeps getting worse.  It has to be against the law. BOB    Oh, come on.  They signed waivers, didn't they?  Plus, it's all fake - like wrestling.  Seriously.  Even if they did do this stuff, they have to have doctors and all on staff - make sure no one really gets hurt. SOUND    UNWRAPPING AND OPENING A FORTUNE COOKIE FRED    Hey, listen to this - "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." BOB    Figures the Chinese would think of that first. FRED    Nah.  The Chinese didn't make that up. HELEN    Then who did say it? FRED    [immediate] Thomas Jefferson. BOB    I don't think so. FRED    Yeah?  And who do you think it was? BOB    Some Greek philosopher or other.  [idea] Julius Caesar! HELEN    You guys make your bet, I'll call Jonesy on the next commercial and he can google it. SOUND    TV TURNS UP ANNOUNCER    [TV]  So Bart, you made it the longest without eating - you have any special tips for the viewers out there on how you did it? BART    [real] Huh? ANNOUNCER    Any tips?  We'll give you a minute - these moments of uncertainty are just further proof that our show is live and unedited.  While Bart ponders this, I'll recap - Alison gave into her craven need for food first, followed by Carl and Debbie - in a virtual photo finish, where Debbie held out for one millisecond longer than Carl.  Good going Debbie! BART    I hate you. ANNOUNCER    Hmm?  What's that? BART    I hate you and all you stand for.  ANNOUNCER    Do I hear an opt-out coming?  For those of you just tuning in, during this episode and this episode alone, any of our four contestants can opt out at any time - not just immediately following a trip into the Box.  So Bart, are you-- SOUND    A BEEP TRIES TO CUT HIM OFF ON THE FIRST WORD BART    Fuck you!  You can't get rid of me that easily.  BART    [TV] I don't care how many times you drug me and try to get me to bow down to the corporate machine!  You and all you people at home - you are sadistic bastards, but I'm here for the long haul - And when I finish, whether I win or not, I will be traveling around the country demanding the pound of flesh each and every one of you bastards owe me!!! KATHY    For god's sake, turn it off. JUNE    No, he's making a valid point.  We shouldn't be party to this. KATHY    The very act of watching it validates it. JUNE    No.  I'm only doing this to bear witness. KATHY    The advertisers don't care.  They just want to you to watch. JUNE    Well, I won't vote any more. KATHY    Then you can't complain when your favorite gets zapped. JUNE    [upset] Oh hell! ANNOUNCER    [TV]  Well, that was very enlightening.  Before you out there start emailing and phoning - please refer to clause 42 slash 8 slash F, subsection I-I-I, paragraph y, where it sets out the game's rules covering mental illness or defect.  Thank you, and good night! SOUND    TV TURNED OFF HELEN    Anyone checked out the big pools? FRED    What do you mean? HELEN    There's huge bets all over the place - everyone guessing who's gonna last the longest. BOB    Well, no one's washed out yet. FRED    They're a tough bunch of kids, but I bet I could make it on that show.  Age does bring wisdom. BOB    To who? FRED    You're too young to remember this, but I was a P-O-W in nam [rhymes with "ham"].  I been through it all.  Torture, deprivation, brain washing. HELEN    They sure got yours squeaky clean. SOUND    DRINKS WHOLE BEER DOWN. BOB    Ahhh. MUSIC    ANNOUNCER    This week, week 9 of The Box, we might just lose a second contestant.  ANNOUNCER     [TV] Alison, you've spent three days in this jacuzzi - brought to us courtesy of Big Joe's cut-rate pools and spas.  Now, people might think this was fun, but of course, you can't fall asleep or you might drown!  ALISON    [TV, parched, delirious]  You suck, Bob. FRED    Friend of yours? BOB    You wish. ALISON     [TV]  Get me out. ANNOUNCER    [TV] You do know that whomever leaves their jacuzzi first goes directly into the box? ALISON     [TV] No!  I want out!  OUT!  I can't - you can't make me stay here! JUNE    They can't, can they? KATHY     How much you wanna bet she signed something that says they can? JUNE    That's illegal! KATHY    Being stupid and greedy?  Nah.  They'd run out of prisons.  Unless you subscribe to the idea that our whole world is a prison. JUNE    [very upset] Don't talk like that - look at that poor girl!  They're just dragging her across the stage! KATHY    Wow.  I wouldn't'a thought it would take three guys to handle her, after all the crap she's been through. ALISON    [TV - screaming weakly and struggling] ANNOUNCER    [TV] It is understood, under the rules, that the clemency episode has run out and, once again, the only time you can opt out is right after a session in the box-- SON    If she's all wet, wouldn't that make the shock worse? DAD    At least her hair doesn't end up all weird since they shaved her head after that challenge last week-- SON    Three weeks ago. DAD    Really?  Anyway, they probably compensate somehow. MOM    Are you sure? DAD    [unsure] Well... They can't really hurt her - that would be... ANNOUNCER    [TV]     Oh, and - I've just got a word from the producer!  We've got a three minute vote - so grab your phones!  ANNOUNCER    [real] Now this will cost one dollar per vote, so make yours count!  Dial the studio number and hit 1 if you want us to let Allison forfeit and leave now, push 2 if you think we should hold her to the rules.  And voting opens [beat, then TV] Now! SHELDON Start the positive counter. TANYA    On it.  Running. NARRATOR     [TV] The positive votes will tally right here on the corner of the screen, and if, after the vote closes, there are more positive than negative votes, Alison will  immediately leave the studio - damper but wiser... BOB    Man, I wish I was in Vegas. FRED    Nah - you know what's going to happen.  The odd's'll be crap. HELEN    Course.  They'll let her go. FRED    You gotta lotta faith in people, babe.  Nah.  I'll give you 10 to 1 she's gonna ride the lightning. BOB     [incredulous] "Ride the lightning?" FRED    You know - old sparky. The electric chair?  Man where have you been? BOB    Considering no one's been executed in an electric chair in this state for - um - help me out Helen-- HELEN    50 years. BOB    50 years. FRED    Really? HELEN    How the hell'm I supposed to know? BOB    Well, whatever - a long time.  HELEN    Actually, I think this state always hanged people. FRED    Hung. BOB    The countdown! 5 - 4 - JUNE    3-2- MOM    [almost breathless] One. ANNOUNCER    [TV]  All votes are in, and as you can see, we had a regular landslide of support for our dear friend Allison here.  we have 4 million six hundred seventy two thousand, three hundred and forty-two votes for clemency.  Good for you everyone!  We'll show the other side, right after this-- SOUND    TV OFF DAD    No way! MOM    You can't    ! SON    I won't watch any more of this.  This is brutal. MOM    [angry] Don't you dare!  How can we not ... find out? SON    No. MOM    Just until they announce it - we don't have to watch ...if she... SON    Gets it? SOUND    REMOTE THROWN ONTO TABLE SON    You do what you want.  I'll be in the garage. SOUND    [after a moment] TV CLICKS ON COMMERCIAL    [something] KATHY    I bet the commercials for this cost top dollar.  Like superbowl ads. JUNE    How can you just be so snarky - that girl could die! KATHY    Nah.  They can't do that.  It would be illegal. JUNE    Not normally, but remember when that guy had a stroke on "Danger Island" last year?  The family sued, but the waiver made it perfectly legit.  KATHY    And that wasn't even that exciting. ANNOUNCER    [on TV]  For those just tuning in, we have perky little Allison in the Box, awaiting your verdict.  [continues under] Does she take the next shock, or have you tipped toward clemency for this poor girl? SHELDON Give them the split picture. TANYA    Before and after? SHELDON Uh-huh. [grim] Show them what they did. ANNOUNCER    [on TV] The negative votes have been tallied.  SOUND    DRUM ROLL, OMINOUS MUSIC ANNOUNCER    [ON TV] And we had 4 million six hundred seventy two thousand, three hundred and forty-two votes to let her go.  BOB    I'm still saying they'll let her off.  FRED    Nope.  You already lost that twenty, pal. HELEN    Shh! ANNOUNCER    [TV] The negative count is seven million three hundred-- SOUND    TV OFF KATHY    Did you vote? JUNE    Yes.  [beat]  Twenty times. KATHY    [shrug] You can't beat the bastards. JUNE    But if everyone just voted a few more times... KATHY    Three million more times. JUNE    How can people be so horrible? SOUND    [NEXT DOOR TV] SCREAMING PEOPLE    [laughing] SOUND    POUNDING ON WALL JUNE    [yelling at them] How can you be so horrible?? KATHY    They're drunk.  Didn't you see the sign? JUNE    [half a sob] Sign? KATHY    The one that said "come to gary's room, get drunk and watch The Box"? JUNE    [down] No. KATHY    Look, turn it on.  You'll see she's not dead or anything, then you'll feel better. JUNE    But what if she's not?  I mean, what if she is?  I mean-- KATHY    [sigh] Then you'll know. SOUND    [beat, then] TV TURNS ON SOUND    [on TV] AMBULANCE SIRENS JUNE    [sob] MOM    [sob] Her poor parents! DAD    Don't worry so much - she's not dead. MOM    She was for 43 seconds. DAD    That doesn't even count these days - happens all the time on House. MOM    [very upset] But this is real! SOUND    [on tv] MUSIC UP ANNOUNCER    [tv]  And we'll be checking in with Allison as soon as she regains consciousness to confirm her wish to opt out.  For now, the game comes down to Bart and Carl.  ANNOUNCER    Don't forget - no matter what happens, the game's big final episode is in two weeks.  SOUND    CAMERA OFF SHELDON Nicely done. ANNOUNCER    It's really wearing me thin. SHELDON Almost over. And after today's vote, there's no way the station can afford to cancel us. ANNOUNCER    [sigh, then grudging] Two more shows.  SHELDON [with meaning] And then we announce the results. MUSIC - OPENING THEME, PLAYS FOR A MOMENT AMB     NOISY BAR BOB    [ordering] Another one. FRED    Packed tonight. SOUND    DRINK SET DOWN HELEN    It's the finale. FRED    [tired] Oh, yeah.  That. BOB    Bottom's up! HELEN    Slow down, or I'm gonna have to pour you into a cab. SOUND    CAR KEYS SLAPPED ONTO THE BAR, SCOOPED UP SOUND    GLASS SET DOWN HARD BOB    Ahhh. CROWD    ROAR OF EXCITEMENT HELEN    Hold on!  I'll get it. SOUND    TV SOUND UP MUSIC    FANFARE ANNOUNCER    It's the night we've all been waiting for.  The night the final results are announced.  And we will have an ultimate winner.  Let's recap what the winner will walk away with.  SOUND    VOLUME DOWN SOUND    DOOR OPENS KATHY    Oh, you're not watching that, are you?  [sneer] I thought you decided it wasn't worth it! JUNE    [shell shocked] I can't not watch!  I have to know! KATHY    Look, let's go to the library or something. JUNE    No!  I would die of suspense! KATHY    It's not-- SOUND    TV VOLUME COMES UP KATHY    [sigh] I'm not staying. SOUND    DOOR CLOSES ANNOUNCER    And the contest comes down to our two finalists, Bart and Carl.  They have endured amazing hardship to make it this far.  Do you have anything you want to say to the people at home, Bart? BART    You still suck and you always will.  Every single one of you!  Every person who just sits by and supports this shit! ANNOUNCER    [still jovial]  And yet, you have continued to play our sick little games - as you call them - despite being offered chance after chance to leave. BART    Hah!  I don't plan to fucking let you win, you scumbags! ANNOUNCER    Well said.  And you, Carl, do you have anything for the audience? CARL    [mumbles] ANNOUNCER    Speak up? CARL    [vague, reciting] We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of dreams.  Sitting by lone sea-- lone sea....  the sea.  The sea.  See see oh playmate, come out and play with me.... [fades out] ANNOUNCER    There you have it, folks.  And now we go to our man in the street interviewer, Tanya.  Take it away! TANYA    Thank you.  I'm in a major metropolitan center here, asking people on the street what they think of the Box. ANNOUNCER    If they're outside right now, instead of glued to their sets, they must not think much of it. BOTH    [fake laugh] SOUND    TV OFF SOUND    EATING MOM    What?  Don't you dare! DAD    Hey, we were watching that! SON    Are you enjoying this? MOM    Enjoying? DAD    What do you mean? SON    All this shit they've put those people through!  You can barely tell them apart now, after they've been starved and had their heads shaved.  They look like concentration camp victims! MOM    But - but this is the last show! DAD    What does it matter if we watch or don't watch? SOUND    THROWING DOWN A REMOTE SON    Do what you want.  I'll just hope for a six-car pileup.  Maybe you'll trade up. SOUND    DOOR OPENS AND SHUT SOUND    REMOTE TAKEN, TV ON ANNOUNCER    And for tonight, the big surprise is-- SOUND    DRUM ROLL, OMINOUS MUSIC ANNOUNCER    Two boxes! SOUND    CANNED CHEERING ANNOUNCER    One for each of you.  While we get them all set, here's a word from our sponsor! AMB    BAR CROWD    Buzzing "two boxes?" BOB    [slurry] Whaddaya think they've got up their shleeves? FRED    They're gonna kill one of those boys. HELEN    [confidential] I heard that girl Allison is in a private clinic, barely alive. FRED    Where'd you--? HELEN    Internet.  BOB    [sarcastic]  Yeah.  Then it's probably true. SOMEONE    Turn it up! HELEN    Got it! SOUND    TV UP ANNOUNCER    And now.  The moment of truth!  All the votes have been tallied.  As you can see, we have Bart over here in the red box-- SOUND    CANNED APPLAUSE ANNOUNCER    [tv] --and Carl over there in the blue. SHELDON close up on Bart, camera 2. Yeah, baby, clench that jaw.  Now cut to that trickle of sweat on Carl's face.  Nice. TANYA    Back to the announcer? SHELDON One more second, and - yes! ANNOUNCER    [tv] And now, with the votes tallied, we will find out who you out there have selected as the big winner, and who has to take the big penalty.  ANNOUNCER    [real] But first, we caught each of our contestants here on secret camera last night.  Let's see what they were doing on the penultimate night. SOUND    QUICK JAB OF STATIC VOICE    [tv] ...need to get out now.  You don't understand what they have planned for tomorrow.  It's so much worse! AMB    BAR BOB    Who the hell izzat? BART    [TV] [scoff] Worse?  Worse how? HELEN    Don't know.  FRED    Look at that announcer fellow - he's surprised too.  HELEN    [half a chuckle]  Serves him right. ANNOUNCER    [tv] Sorry - we should have screened that clip before playing it.  Let's go over to Carl's shot. CARL    [tv] Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall--[cuts out suddenly] ANNOUNCER    [tv] And that's all the time we have for that.  And now the moment of truth.  Carl or Bart?  You held their fate in your hands. SOUND    COMMERCIAL COMES ON UNDER MOM    [coming in]  Where's Kyle?  Have you seen Kyle? DAD    [mesmerized]  He'll be back.  Just ... went out to a friend's house.  Probably. MOM    You should turn that off and find him! DAD    We can look in ten minutes just as easily as we can look now! MOM    This is our son! DAD    It's almost over! SOUND    OMINOUS MUSIC ON TV ANNOUNCER    [tv] And now.  The final countdown. MOM    Five minutes. SOUND    SHE SITS ANNOUNCER     [tv]  This has been quite a journey for everyone - and we would like to thank you all for your support and participation. BOB    Support?  I'd shoot that stupid bastard if I had a chance.  And a gun. HELEN    You're not the only one, but a lot of people paid a lot of money into that damn show. ANNOUNCER    [tv] --making us the highest rated network series ever-- FRED    yeah, and even WE count for ratings, since we happen to be watching it. BOB    [steaming into an alcoholic rage] Then let's not watch it! SOUND    SLAMS GLASS ON BAR, LIQUID SLOSHES FRED    Calm down, pal. BOB    No! Is this what our world has come to?  This crap?? SOUND    THROWS BEER GLASS AT TV, TV DIES, BUT OTHER SET PLAYS ON IN THE BACKGROUND CROWD    [Shocked silence] FRED    Great, one down, only seven hundred million TV sets to go. HELEN    I'll put it on your tab. CROWD     [chatter begins again] ANNOUNCER    [tv] --will definitely be returning for a second season, starting next fall-- SOUND    DOOR OPENS ANNOUNCER    [tv] --and we're looking at celebrity contestants.  TANYA    [tv]  That will be a whole new ballgame. KATHY    Sorry, didn't know it was still on. JUNE    [distraught] Stay.  Please. KATHY    Ugh.  Why? JUNE    Because I don't think I'll make it otherwise. KATHY    Make what? ANNOUNCER    [tv] And now for the final outcome.  MOM    Yes? DAD    About time. ANNOUNCER    [tv]  the final results. FRED    Don't call the police.  I'll get him home. HELEN    Yeah.  This time. ANNOUNCER    [tv] What we've all been working toward. JUNE    [crying] Can't they just say it? TV, MUSIC SWELLS, THEN CUTS OUT SUDDENLY JUNE    What? HELEN    Shit, must have blown the circuit. DAD    The electricity's still on! KATHY    Is there something wrong with your TV? MOM    No!  It's practically new! FRED    Come on.  Quitting time, pal. SOUND    TEST PATTERN NOISE, THEN MUSIC SUDDENLY CUTS BACK IN ANNOUNCER    Thank you all for participating in our experiment.  MOM    [gasp] ANNOUNCER    As you can see, all of our actors are in perfect health. JUNE    [sob]  How could they--? KATHY    Bastards. ANNOUNCER    We would love to hear your reactions to this show.  Please feel free to leave us a message at www-dot- SOUND    TV SWITCHES OFF HELEN     [last call voice] Allright.  That's it. CLOSER   [NOTE:  George Santayana, author of the quote.]

Welcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: Conversation with Eliezer: What do you want the system to do?, published by Akash on June 25, 2022 on LessWrong. This is a write-up of a conversation I overheard between Eliezer and some junior alignment researchers. Eliezer reviewed this and gave me permission to post this, but he mentioned that "there's a lot of stuff that didn't get captured well or accurately." I'm posting it under the belief that it's better than nothing. TLDR: People often work on alignment proposals without having a clear idea of what they actually want an aligned system to do. Eliezer thinks this is bad. He claims that people should start with the target (what do you want the system to do?) before getting into the mechanics (how are you going to get the system to do this?) I recently listened in on a conversation between Eliezer and a few junior alignment researchers (let's collectively refer to them as Bob). This is a paraphrased/editorialized version of that conversation. Bob: Let's suppose we had a perfect solution to outer alignment. I have this idea for how we could solve inner alignment! First, we could get a human-level oracle AI. Then, we could get the oracle AI to build a human-level agent through hardcoded optimization. And then-- Eliezer: What do you want the system to do? Bob: Oh, well, I want it to avoid becoming a mesa-optimizer. And you see, the way we do this, assuming we have a perfect solution to outer alignment is-- Eliezer: No. What do you want the system to do? Don't tell me about the mechanics of the system. Don't tell me about how you're going to train it. Tell me about what you want it to do. Bob: What. what I want it to do. Well, uh, I want it to not kill us and I want it to be aligned with our values. Eliezer: Aligned with our values? What does that mean? What will you actually have this system do to make sure we don't die? Does it have to do with GPUs? Does it have to do with politics? Tell me what, specifically, you want the system to do. Bob: Well wait, what if we just had the system find out what to do on its own? Eliezer: Oh okay, so we're going to train a superintelligent system and give it complete freedom over what it's supposed to do, and then we're going to hope it doesn't kill us? Bob: Well, um.. Eliezer: You're not the only one who has trouble with this question. A lot of people find it easier to think about the mechanics of these systems. Oh, if we just tweak the system in these ways-- look! We've made progress! It's much harder to ask yourself, seriously, what are you actually trying to get the system to do? This is hard because we don't have good answers. This is hard because a lot of the answers make us uncomfortable. This is hard because we have to confront the fact that we don't currently have a solution. This happens with start-ups as well. You'll talk to a start-up founder and they'll be extremely excited about their database, or their engine, or their code. And then you'll say “cool, but who's your customer?” And they'll stare back at you, stunned. And then they'll say “no, I don't think you get it! Look at this-- we have this state-of-the-art technique! Look at what it can do!” And then I ask again, “yes, great, but who is your customer?” With AI safety proposals, I first want to know who your customer is. What is it that you actually want your system to be able to do in the real-world? After you have specified your target, you can tell me about the mechanics, the training procedures, and the state-of-the-art techniques. But first, we need a target worth aiming for. Questions that a curious reader might have, which are not covered in this post: Why does Eliezer believe this? Is it never useful to have a better understanding of the mechanics, even if we don't have a clear target in mind? Do the mechanics of the system always depend on its target?...

Link to original articleWelcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: Conversation with Eliezer: What do you want the system to do?, published by Akash on June 25, 2022 on LessWrong. This is a write-up of a conversation I overheard between Eliezer and some junior alignment researchers. Eliezer reviewed this and gave me permission to post this, but he mentioned that "there's a lot of stuff that didn't get captured well or accurately." I'm posting it under the belief that it's better than nothing. TLDR: People often work on alignment proposals without having a clear idea of what they actually want an aligned system to do. Eliezer thinks this is bad. He claims that people should start with the target (what do you want the system to do?) before getting into the mechanics (how are you going to get the system to do this?) I recently listened in on a conversation between Eliezer and a few junior alignment researchers (let's collectively refer to them as Bob). This is a paraphrased/editorialized version of that conversation. Bob: Let's suppose we had a perfect solution to outer alignment. I have this idea for how we could solve inner alignment! First, we could get a human-level oracle AI. Then, we could get the oracle AI to build a human-level agent through hardcoded optimization. And then-- Eliezer: What do you want the system to do? Bob: Oh, well, I want it to avoid becoming a mesa-optimizer. And you see, the way we do this, assuming we have a perfect solution to outer alignment is-- Eliezer: No. What do you want the system to do? Don't tell me about the mechanics of the system. Don't tell me about how you're going to train it. Tell me about what you want it to do. Bob: What. what I want it to do. Well, uh, I want it to not kill us and I want it to be aligned with our values. Eliezer: Aligned with our values? What does that mean? What will you actually have this system do to make sure we don't die? Does it have to do with GPUs? Does it have to do with politics? Tell me what, specifically, you want the system to do. Bob: Well wait, what if we just had the system find out what to do on its own? Eliezer: Oh okay, so we're going to train a superintelligent system and give it complete freedom over what it's supposed to do, and then we're going to hope it doesn't kill us? Bob: Well, um.. Eliezer: You're not the only one who has trouble with this question. A lot of people find it easier to think about the mechanics of these systems. Oh, if we just tweak the system in these ways-- look! We've made progress! It's much harder to ask yourself, seriously, what are you actually trying to get the system to do? This is hard because we don't have good answers. This is hard because a lot of the answers make us uncomfortable. This is hard because we have to confront the fact that we don't currently have a solution. This happens with start-ups as well. You'll talk to a start-up founder and they'll be extremely excited about their database, or their engine, or their code. And then you'll say “cool, but who's your customer?” And they'll stare back at you, stunned. And then they'll say “no, I don't think you get it! Look at this-- we have this state-of-the-art technique! Look at what it can do!” And then I ask again, “yes, great, but who is your customer?” With AI safety proposals, I first want to know who your customer is. What is it that you actually want your system to be able to do in the real-world? After you have specified your target, you can tell me about the mechanics, the training procedures, and the state-of-the-art techniques. But first, we need a target worth aiming for. Questions that a curious reader might have, which are not covered in this post: Why does Eliezer believe this? Is it never useful to have a better understanding of the mechanics, even if we don't have a clear target in mind? Do the mechanics of the system always depend on its target?...

☎️Teofimo Lopez What Happen With The MEETING With, Bob❓Oh, That's Right, Never Showed Up❗[EXPLAINED]Join this channel to get access to perks:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcKT39KR_e3ZliHe4cyC06A/joinOne Free Month of Dazn On TBV http://bit.ly/ThaBoxingVoicexDAZNhttps://www.patreon.com/ThaboxingvoiceBUY THA BOXING VOICE T-SHIRT HERE http://thaboxingvoice.com/storePLEASE SUPPORT!!! SUBSCRIBE, SHARE & LIKEPlease check out our Facebook page and hit the like button. https://www.facebook.com/Thaboxingvoiceradio GOOGLE PLUS https://plus.google.com/107960664507143008932/posts?tab=XXiWeb Sitehttp://thaboxingvoice.com/Radio show: http://www.blogtalkradio.com/thaboxingvoiceradioTwitter: @Thaboxingvoicehttps://twitter.com/thaboxingvoiceAudio only Podcast subscribe herehttps://itun.es/us/oY7JJ.c#TeofimoLopez #LopezHaney #DevinHaney

Alex Philbrick stops by to ask Brady about Bob (Oh boy) and reminisce about Adrian Peterson.

[“The sages, knowing Me as the ultimate purpose of all sacrifices and austerities, the Supreme Lord of all planets and demigods and the benefactor and well-wisher of all living entities, attain peace from the pangs of material miseries.”] But we won't take this. We shall put forward so many false proprietors, false friends, false enjoyers, and they will fight one another. This is the situation of the world. If education is given and people take this knowledge, there is immediately peace (śāntim ṛcchati). This is knowledge, and if anyone follows this principle, he is honest. He does not claim, “It is mine.” He knows everything: “Oh, it is Kṛṣṇa's, so therefore everything should be utilized for Kṛṣṇa's service.” That is honesty. If this pencil belongs to me, the etiquette is—My students sometimes ask, “Can I use this pencil?” “Yes, you can.” Similarly, if I know that everything belongs to Kṛṣṇa, I will not use anything without His permission. That is honesty. And that is knowledge. One who does not know is ignorant; he is foolish. And a foolish man commits criminality. All criminals are foolish men. Out of ignorance one commits lawbreaking. So ignorance is not bliss, but it is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss. That is the difficulty. The whole world is enjoying ignorance. And when you talk about Kṛṣṇa consciousness, they do not very much appreciate it. If I say, “Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor; you are not the proprietor,” you will not be very much satisfied. [They laugh.] Just see—ignorance is bliss. So it is my foolishness to say the real truth. Therefore it is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss. So we are taking the risk of offending people, and they will think we are fools. If I say to a rich man, “You are not the proprietor. Kṛṣṇa is the proprietor, so whatever money you have, spend it for Kṛṣṇa,” he will be angry. upadeśo hi mūrkhānāṁ prakopāya na śāntaye “If you instruct a rascal, he'll be angry.” Therefore we go as beggars: “My dear sir, you are a very nice man. I am a sannyāsī beggar, so I want to construct a temple. Can you spare some money?” So he will think, “Oh, here is a beggar. Give him some money.” [They laugh] But if I say, “Dear sir, you have millions of dollars at your disposal. That is Kṛṣṇa's money. Give it to me. I am Kṛṣṇa's servant.” Oh, he'll... [Everyone laughs.] He will not be very satisfied. Rather, if I go as a beggar, he will give me something. And if I tell him the truth, he will not give me a farthing. [They laugh] We convince him as beggars. We are not beggars. We are Kṛṣṇa's servants. We don't want anything from anyone. Because we know Kṛṣṇa will provide everything. Bob: Oh-h... Śrīla Prabhupāda: This is knowledge. For instance, a child will sometimes take something important, so we have to flatter him. “Oh, you are so nice. Please take these lozenges and give me that paper. It is nothing; it is paper.” And he will say, “Oh, yes. Take. That's nice.” Two-paise lozenges—very nice and sweet. So we have to do that. Why? Because a man will go to hell by taking Kṛṣṇa's money. So some way or other, take some money from him and engage him in the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. | Read along with me: www.biglink.to/perfect_questions_perfect_answers

FamilyLife Today® Radio TranscriptReferences to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Creating A More Romantic Marriage Day 4 of 8 Guest:                         Barbara Rainey From the Series:         A Woman's View of Romance_____________________________________________________________ Bob:                Welcome to FamilyLife Today.  Today we're speaking frankly about how a woman views romance. (Music:  "Love and Marriage")                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today.  Thanks for joining us on the broadcast.  We are beginning Week Number 2 of our look at Creating a More Romantic Marriage, and I just want to encourage folks, if you missed any of last week's programs, or if you're going to miss any of this week's programs, this is a series that husbands and wives ought to get and listen to together, and then they can talk, they can interact, about what they hear on the tapes. Dennis:          You know, this subject of developing and cultivating romance in a marriage relationship is a discussion that is long overdue among Christian couples, because we ought to have among the most passionate relationships on the planet.  Our God created romance in the first place. Bob:                Well, we're going to talk on today's broadcast about how men and women view romance, and we've brought your wife, Barbara, back in the studio with us today.  Barbara, welcome back to FamilyLife Today. Barbara:         Thanks, good to be here. Bob:                And one of the things that we want to do is look at research.   Dennis:          Right. Bob:                You commissioned that be done at our FamilyLife Marriage Conferences across the country – we had a researcher who talked with women about how they view romance, how they view it primarily, is that right? Dennis:          Actually, this Top 10 list of romantic acts came from both men and women. Bob:                Well, let me go over the list, Barbara.  I'm going to go from 10 to 1, and I'll read what people indicated expressed romance, and then I want to know, as a man, and I want to know how I can keep these ideas in front of me and sprinkle them into a relationship as a way to express romance – again, with no hidden agenda, no – not driving for anything.  Number 10, hands are romantic; holding hands, particularly, is romantic for a woman.  Do you like holding hands with Dennis? Barbara:         Mm-hm. Bob:                Why is that romantic for you? Barbara:         I do it because it says, "I want to be close to you, and I like you, and you're my friend, and I want to be next to you."  I mean, those are the kinds of things that communicates to me, and that's the reason that I initiate it, and I think that's probably the same for him, too.  So I think it's the closeness that it communicates. Bob:                Okay, how about Number 9, which is massaging one another – rubbing the neck.  Do you like when Dennis reaches over and rubs the back of your neck?  Dennis, massage oftentimes will have a sexual connotation, and some women may pull back from liking massage because they think it's just foreplay. Dennis:          Right. Barbara:         Exactly.  I think that's right. Bob:                So if it's non-sexual massage where it's just – "Let me rub your back, and you can fall asleep," then that's okay? Barbara:         Oh, I think so, yeah. Bob:                Number 8 on the list is serving – serving the other person – common courtesies – opening the door, holding a chair out for somebody, doing little acts of sacrifice.  Is that romantic for a woman? Barbara:         To me, I don't think of that as being as romantic, if I had to define them, as, say, holding hands but, again, I think it's important to do.  I think it says "I am denying myself for you.  I am going to serve you," and I think that anytime a husband can serve his wife sacrificially and do something for her, he's communicating to her that he cares about her and that he loves her and she's special, and he wants to make her feel special. Bob:                Okay. Dennis:          Let me make a comment on this next one – number 7 – because this made this spot in the combined list – 75 percent of the men picked this item as number 1 of what was most romantic.  So this, again, kind of lets you know the men viewed this substantially heavier and weightier than the women did because, together, it became number 7.   Bob:                So men had it at number 1, women – Barbara:         Someone must have had it a lot lower for the average to be seven. Dennis:          It must have been a lot lower. Bob:                And number 7 is a kiss – an unexpected kiss, a nibble on the back of the neck, or just kissing each other. Dennis:          Now, why do you think, Barbara, the women would have ranked that so much differently than the men? Barbara:         Because I think it probably, if the truth be known, they might have felt that he had another motive, and I just wonder if some of the women were feeling suspicious.  I think some of these other things might be able to be seen as an individual fact or as an individual gesture – Bob:                – so if he opens the door, she doesn't feel he's up to something, but if he kisses her, she wonders what's goin' on in the back of his mind. Barbara:         She might go, "Okay"—yeah, right – "I wonder what he's thinkin'?" Dennis:          And the rest of this list, really, if you look at it, with the exception of this and the massage – really, are statements of a relationship and women view romance through the eyes of a relationship.  They want to be loved, known – Barbara:         – understood – Dennis:          – there ya go – Barbara:         – accepted, valued, appreciated – Dennis:          – she knows the words – why did I even try, huh? Barbara:         Well, you did a good job. Bob:                It just wasn't complete.  All right, number 10 was holding hands; number 9, massage; number 8 serving one another, opening doors, common courtesies; number 7, kissing; number 6 was walking.  Now, there's a romantic 30 minutes – we went on a walk together – that's romantic for women? Barbara:         Well, it's very relational.  I think if you go for a walk, chances are you're going to go for a walk away from daily responsibilities – away from the telephone, away from the television, away from the children, away from work, away from whatever – and it allows you to focus on the relationship without having to sit on a couch and look at each other eye-to-eye and be relational, which is sometimes very threatening. Dennis:          And I think the reason why most men would respond just as you did, Bob, is because of what Barbara just said – it's not sexual.  When we think of what's romantic to us, and we really evaluate it, we would not put walking at the top of the list. Bob:                We're going to talk about this next week – but it is interesting, because I hear you saying in this – part of what speaks romance to a woman is "Get me outta here."  In the day-to-day of life with all of the kids and with all of the responsibilities – get me away from this for a little while, and that will be so refreshing to me, it will speak volumes.  That's at least a part of it, and then – have a relationship with me. Barbara:         I think that's part of it, mm-hm. Bob:                All right, number 5 on the list – something written – written notes or letters or poems or cards or notes on the bathroom mirror or just some written remind of affection – is that romantic? Barbara:         Mm-hm, I think it is.  In fact, I found this note, and I don't know how old it was, but Dennis had taped a note in the bathroom, and it said, "Have you found all the little notes around that say how much I love you?"  It was just fun to see that and read it again, and I thought, "You know, that's still true," and I don't know what the notes all were, but it was fun to see that. Bob:                As you said that, I was thinking it was years ago – I don't know how many years ago – but one night Mary Ann had gone to bed, she was exhausted, and I sat up, and I wrote a half a dozen of the notes, and I scattered them around the house in places where it might be weeks before she would find them, and one of them was in a recipe folder that she had for chicken dishes, and I just put it in there figuring, you know, it could be six months from now, but she'll find it, it will be a surprise.  Well, five, 10 years later, it's still in the same – every time I'm goin' through there, I go – Dennis:          – has she never seen it? Bob:                Oh, she's seen it. Barbara:         She's probably seen it and left it there. Bob:                But she's never thrown it away, and I keep – you know – why don't you throw this thing away?  I mean, it's old, it's on old stationery.                         All right, let me read through the list here again – number 10, hands; number 9, massage; number 8, serving one another; number 7, kiss; number 6, walking; number 5, something written; number 4, going out on a day – time away – dates with no kids, dinner out, a weekend at a bed and breakfast – just time alone together on dates.  Is that romantic? Barbara:         Yeah, mm-hm.  I think, for the same reason again, I think a wife feels that she is the focus of her husband's attention when she knows that he's doing this for her. Bob:                You two have made that a regular part of your relationship.  There is, as often as you're able, on a weekly basis, you have a date.  Does that make it less special? Barbara:         No. Bob:                It's routine? Barbara:         Huh-uh, not at all. Bob:                You look forward to Sunday night date night, even if it's every week? Barbara:         Yeah, I look forward to that moreso now than when we tried doing this when our kids were young.  We tried doing it when our children were young, and it was hard to do it, because it was hard to get babysitters, and it was hard to get away, and in those years, it was easier for us to spend time together at home because the kids all went to bed at 7:30 or 8, and we had two hours, at least, every evening.  Well, now that our children are older, it's really tough to get two seconds alone at home. Dennis:          Right, but when the kids were little, one of the ways we solved the problem of babysitters was we would go ahead and put the kids to bed, and then I would prepare the meal and would give Barbara 30, 45 minutes to run about doing her duties, and then I would take the meal upstairs to our bedroom and had a table at the foot of our bed that I put a nice tablecloth on and with the good plates and the napkins and the good silverware and had a beautiful candlelight dinner there, and when the meal was over, you didn't have to go anywhere and, frankly, we have some great memories of those conversations because at the end of the evening there was nothing to change the mood of the evening.  We didn't have to go anywhere – we were there, and I took the dishes downstairs while she got ready for bed and cleaned up the kitchen so she didn't come back downstairs the next morning to a dirty kitchen. Bob:                That really ties to number 3, which is meals.  Number 4 is a date together; number 3 is having meals together – special meals, candlelight, quiet dinner alone, picnics, a breakfast out together – those kinds of events, but what is it about a picnic away or Dennis saying, "Let's go out and have breakfast, just the two of us."  What is it about that that's romantic? Barbara:         Well, I think it's the unexpected.  The one that jumps off the list that you just read to me is picnic because that's one we've done so seldom, and that would be, to me, the most fun because that's one which is hardly ever done.  So I think keeping variety in it is really a good idea, but there's a lot (inaudible) – [crosstalk]  Bob:                – make note of that.  I'm just checkin' to see if you're makin' notes here. Barbara:         He knows.  We've talked about it.  It's just hard to pull off. Bob:                All right, number 2 is touch, and with this we're not talking about sexual touch, we're talking about holding or hugs or cuddling or affection in public and yet, even as I say that, I think, for a lot of women, being touched may always feel sexual to them.  They may, like with a kiss or with a massage, wonder what's really behind this, mightn't they? Barbara:         Well, I think so, but I think that's where a husband needs to know his wife, and he needs to ask her questions, he needs to seek to understand who she is and where she's coming from and why she feels the way she does and how she will respond to different things, because it may be that she will feel somewhat suspicious with physical touch.  And so he may need to assure her – "I just want to hug you because I love you – no strings attached, I'm just committed to you, and that's all I want you to know" – or something that helps her understand his meaning or his intent behind it, because I do think that, just like with holding hands, it communicates closeness, it communicates "I like you."  I think hugs and other kinds of affection that's non-sexual affection sends the same message.  It communicates I like you and I want to be close to you, and I think you're a neat person.   Dennis:          Yeah, one of the best-sellers at our FamilyLife Marriage Conference is Ed Wheat's book, "Love Life For Every Married Couple," and it's a book about romance, and when I first read this a number of years ago, I kind of laughed that he would need to take three pages in the book to give married couples exercises for learning how to touch one another.  But on page 184 through 186 he has 25 suggestions for touching, and I'll just read a couple of these, because they're really quite instructive, I think.                         "Number 1 – when dating, young people can scarcely be kept apart.  Most married couples have forgotten how much fun physical closeness can be.  So set aside practice times at night, at least once a week, to learn the delights of non-sexual body caressing."  At this point, in our marriage conference, when I read this, all the engaged people fall out of their chairs laughing.  The married people aren't laughing.  They're goin' "That's a good idea."                         "Number 2 – show each other where you like to be touched and the kind of touch that really pleases you.  Usually a light touch is the most thrilling.  Be imaginative in the way you caress."                         You know, I think he's onto something here to give us some practical thoughts about how to re-ignite exploration through tender touching of one another's bodies.  I think when we get married the familiarity with one another causes the loss of the intrigue, the exploration, and the excitement, and I think Dr. Wheat does a great job of giving us some practical projects that couples, I think, will find exciting. Bob:                I've got to imagine there are some men who are saying, "This sounds to me like a contradiction in terms – non-sexual touching.  I can do that, sure, but in the back of my mind, touching is, for me, sexually stimulating.  Whether it's holding hands, whether it's putting my arm around my wife, whether it's re-imagining the things we did on dates – that has a sexual dimension and for me not to have the sexual dimension fulfilled is a sacrifice on my part." Dennis:          That's the point.  I think to have those feelings is normal.  To deny that you have those feelings is not healthy.  I think it's okay to experience attraction, arousal, at that point.  I think what our wives are looking for is such a premium, such a value placed upon the relationship and who she is, that we are willing to set aside those desires and not take that touch toward what we, as men, would know would be the intended objective. Bob:                I remember the Ann Landers survey, you know, where they said, "Would you rather have sexual relations with your husband or just cuddle with him?"  And women, in droves, said, "I'd rather just cuddle with him," and I thought, "Do the women understand that cuddling with him is stimulating sexually?"  And that's the reason that it often goes on to sexual relations, because he's responding to what's going on inside of him, and you're saying he needs to put that to death from time to time. Dennis:          That's right – and not allow his mind to continue on.  He needs to build some limits that really communicate to his wife that "I'm willing to set aside my desires for you." Barbara:         Yeah, and I was just thinking, as you were saying about the survey that I think probably the reason a lot of women feel that way is they probably weren't loved and cuddled as children by their parents, and they missed that, and they have this deep longing to know that they are loved, and they want that from their husband, and if all they get from their husband is sexual initiation or sexual touching or cuddling, then they think, "Gosh, he doesn't really love me, he just needs me," or "He just wants me for his own pleasure, his own need," and so I think that's, again, another cue for a man to say, "I need to understand my wife.  I need to understand why she needs non-sexual affection," and I think we all need affection, because we need to know that we're valued as people, and that's a way to communicate that.  But I think that, for a husband, he needs to say, "Okay, why does she feel this way?  Why does my wife need non-sexual affection?"  And he needs to ask her, and they need to talk that through, and he needs to be willing to give it to her with no strings attached. Bob:                Mm-hm, okay, top 10 again – Number 10, holding hands; number 9, massage; number 8, serving one another; number 7, a kiss; number 6, walking together; number 5, written love notes to one another; number 4, going out on dates; number 3, having meals together; number 2 is non-sexual touching – Dennis:          – and number 1 is not diamonds. Bob:                Number 1, the most romantic act, according to respondents at the FamilyLife Marriage Conference – do you want to say what it was? Dennis:          Go ahead. Bob:                It's flowers – delivered, hand-picked, bringing them home – a single rose – it doesn't seem to matter.  I'll never forget being at a FamilyLife Marriage Conference where I was speaking, and I got – we were all waiting for the elevator, a whole group of us waiting for the elevator, and when the elevator car came, here came the guy holding a dozen roses, and he walked off – he was the flower delivery guy – and every woman at the elevator turned to watch, to see which room in the hotel he was going to, and they watched, and they watched – nobody got on the elevator, they just watched. Barbara:         How funny. Bob:                And finally, he went down the hall and finally he stopped at a room and as soon as he did, all these women kind of turned at their husband and glared at him, like, "That wasn't our room.  How come you didn't get me flowers?"  There is – what is it about flowers, Barbara? Barbara:         Well, I think flowers say that you're special.  I think it's the surprise that comes with flowers.  I think it's because they're unexpected.  I think because it's a frivolous thing, and I think it communicates love.  I think it says lots of things to a woman about love and about her being a special person, a valued person, an appreciated person – that her husband is willing to do that for her. Bob:                When Dennis brings home flowers do you immediately stop and think, "What's he up to?" Barbara:         I don't think I have.  I really don't think I have. Bob:                So we go through this top 10 list as men – we look at all of the non-sexual things that are on the list, and we say, "Are you sayin' I just need to keep doin' these over and over again, mixing 'em in, a little bit here, a little bit there, and expect nothing in return?" Barbara:         Yeah, but I think husbands need to ask the Lord to help them be creative and ask the Lord to help them think of their wives and ask God to help them understand and pursue, because it isn't – again, as we've talked about a formula several different times – but I think that the idea is that a woman wants to feel special and valued and appreciated and all of those words I've been using, and I think she needs to feel that from her husband in different ways at different times and unique opportunities. Bob:                You know, this is going to sound redundant, but just listening to all of this, I thought romance was supposed to be fun, and it this doesn't sound like as much fun as I had hoped it would be. Dennis:          But I think it is fun.  I think it is fun to find out what communicates romance to my wife. Barbara:         And it may not be fun in the way you've always defined fun, because I've learned to enjoy a lot of things through the years of being married to Dennis, because he has introduced me to things that I would have never done on my own and, likewise, he has learned to enjoy things that he would have never done if it weren't for me.  So I think we need to be willing to have our definition of fun broadened, because it will be fun, but it may be fun in a different way than what you're thinking and be willing to try something new.  You may like it. Bob:                Well, I just want to say thanks.  Can I thank your wife for being on the broadcast with us? Dennis:          Only after I do – honey, thanks for sharing your heart and being real for women, so – well – a lot of men can better understand how to communicate love and romance to their wives. Bob:                Yeah, and thanks for the insight I've gotten over the last three days of the broadcast on how women view romance.                           Well, on tomorrow's broadcast we're going to talk to – I don't know how to describe him – you described him as the "Michael Jordan of romance," right? Dennis:          Whatever you do, every man needs to listen to tomorrow.  You think you are a romantic husband – do not miss tomorrow, because you're going to be blown away by the guy we have the opportunity to talk to tomorrow. Bob:                I hope you can be here for it.  Our engineer is Mark Whitlock, our host Dennis Rainey, and I'm – Dennis:          – would you agree, Bob? Bob:                I would agree, absolutely.   Dennis:          All right, okay. Bob:                I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. (Music:  "Love and Marriage")                         FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.  __________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you.  However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website.  If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, could   you consider donating today to help defray the costs?  Copyright © FamilyLife.  All rights reserved.www.FamilyLife.com     

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Creating A More Romantic MarriageDay 1 of 8Guest:                       Dennis RaineyFrom the series:       Why Romance is Important _______________________________________________________________ (Nat King Cole singing "L-O-V-E") Bob:                Believe it or not, this is FamilyLife Today.  Our host is best-selling author and conference speaker, Dennis Rainey.  I'm Bob Lepine.  Stay with us as we talk about L-O-V-E today on FamilyLife Today.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today.  Thanks for joining us on the broadcast. Dennis:          Do you think our listeners know who Nat King Cole is, Bob? Bob:                Oh, yeah, everybody knows who Nat King Cole is.  I bought a two-record collection when I was in college, just because I thought, "He's got the smoothest voice, it's the most romantic music I've ever heard." Dennis:          Well, you know, we also have a lot of romantic adventures at our FamilyLife Marriage Conference, and I've got a letter here from a conferee couple who attended the Phoenix FamilyLife Marriage Conference – I think this was back in 1991.  This is a classic, keeper letter from the archives of the thousands of attendees who have been to our conference. Bob:                Now, this is on hotel stationery, right? Dennis:          That's right – the Hyatt Regency Scottsdale.  "Dear Dennis, when you suggested last night for us to be more creative in our romance, you never gave us the warning that it could be dangerous."  Then in all capital letters, it reads, "RULE NUMBER 1 – ALWAYS BE PREPARED!  AT LEAST WITH A SPARE KEY" – and now the rest of the story.                         "After dinner and the sunset, we decided to take your advice and to add a little romance and be a little daring.  Staying here at the hotel, we crept out onto our fourth-floor balcony for an incredibly romantic view, not to mention some privacy.  Unbeknown to us, while we were 'communicating' and 'learning more about each other,' the maid was inside our bedroom, turning down our bedsheets for us.  She did not know we were on the balcony.  We did not know she was in the room.  Maybe you can guess the rest.  She locked the sliding glass door."  It is signed, "Two lovers, romantic sky, and lots of privacy.  Embarrassed from California." Bob:                So you have no idea how they ever got back in, huh? Dennis:          Your mind is only left to wonder – how did they get back in, there on the fourth floor of the hotel? Bob:                Well, that is a part of what we hope will be a romantic evening for couples at the FamilyLife Marriage Conference, but we hope that's not the end of romantic evenings for couples. Dennis:          Well, we really talk about FamilyLife Marriage Conference, taking Saturday and making it an adventure.  That's not the kind of adventure we're talking about.  We are talking about adding romance to your relationship, and I think at our conferences across the United States, that's what a lot of couples really seen infused back into their marriage relationship through all the teachings of scripture that build intimacy in their marriage relationship, they better understand how to relate to each other as husband and wife, and what I wanted to do, Bob, was I wanted to take the next few days, prior to Valentine's Day, and I wanted us to talk about the all-important subject of romance. Bob:                Now, you call it an all-important subject.  You kind of get the feel that romance is something that's a part of the courtship process.  After marriage, romance just doesn't seem like it has the same, you know –  Dennis:          – sizzle. Bob:                Yeah, yeah. Dennis:          Yeah, that's right.  Well, let me just read something from Song of Solomon, okay?  Song of Solomon, chapter 1, verse 2 – "May he kiss me with the kisses of his mouth, for your love is better than wine; your oils have a pleasing fragrance; your name is like purified oil; therefore, the maidens love you.  Draw me after you."                         Now, here's the Shulamite woman who is attracted to Solomon.  She is wanting her husband as the bride, and, you know, it's interesting that our God devoted an entire book of the 66 books that are in the inspired Word of God to this subject of romantic love, and one of the reasons why I wanted to talk about this is I think Christians are afraid of the subject, Bob.  I think we're afraid to address this whole area of romantic love in marriage even though our God thought it all up in the first place. Bob:                Some people have suggested that Song of Solomon is a parable showing us God's love for Israel or Jesus' love for His church.  You're saying that God put it in the Bible to talk about the romantic relationship between a husband and wife? Dennis:          I wonder about the people who say that – if they really read the verses, because they've got to do away with a lot of physical imagery that doesn't leave that much to the imagination.  I mean, it's clear they're talking about the whole area of romantic and sexual love in a marriage relationship. Bob:                Is romance really important for a marriage?  I mean, can't a marriage survive just fine for 30 or 40 years and not have a whole lot of sizzle and spark to it? Dennis:          Well, I think marriages can survive, I think that's a key word, but will they be what God intended?  I say not.  One of the things that happens in a marriage relationship is if we don't have romance, something that adds excitement and adventure, intrigue, thrill, I think we get caught up in the negative about our spouse, and when you begin to focus on the negative and the faults of the other person, that relationship begins to spiral downward.  And one of the reasons why I think Valentine's is such an important time of the year, especially for the Christian marriages, is to remind us that we ought to be making this subject of romance a part of our everyday diet in our marriage relationship. The Bible speaks about, over in Proverbs, chapter 5, verse 15 and then 18 through 19, that a man was to be captured by his wife's sexual powers.  He was to be captivated by his wife.  That's a powerful image to be literally captured by your spouse.  The Bible is talking about this as far as thrill, excitement, adventure, an emotional excitement that I think sets a marriage apart from just a pure friendship.  I mean, Barbara is my friend, but there is a side of our friendship that goes way beyond just two friends who are pals to two people who, yes, share a marriage bed together and who dream thoughts and share intimacies that are shared with nobody else on this planet, and that's what God intended, I believe, in the marriage relationship. Bob:                Well, now, you've got 50 percent of your audience listening to you, goin', "Preach it, Brother Rainey.  Yes, amen."   Dennis:          And what sex might they be? Bob:                Well, some of 'em are women who are saying, "Yes, talk to my husband and teach him how to be more romantic with me," and others are men saying, "Yes, talk to my wife."  It's interesting that opposites attract in this area. Dennis:          Well, you know, therein lies a real problem in discussing this, because I'll just let our listeners in on some research we did out of our FamilyLife Marriage Conference.  We researched over 800 of our conferees at three different FamilyLife Marriage Conferences last spring about how they viewed romance, and, I've got to tell you, men and women view it through a different set of eyes.  A woman looks at romance through the eyes of intimacy, relationship, warmth.  It's that connectedness of the soul and emotions, heart-to-heart.  And the men looked at romance – well, how shall we say it?  It was one word – sex.  And you see what God is up to here, because he made us different.  We are to depend upon each other, and in the process of being different, I think what God wants to do is cause both of us to love each other where we are.                         You see what God is up to here, is I think God is wanting to knock the edges off of me, as a man, and our male listeners, learning how to love their wives in a way that communicates love so that she feels love – not how we feel about love or what communicates love to us as men but instead learning to put on the side of love that meets a wife at that relational point of need, and there are a lot of men today who I think are frustrated sexually in their marriage relationships, primarily – listen carefully – primarily because they still have not learned how to meet their wives' emotional needs so she can be released to meet her husband's needs. Bob:                Mm-hm.  I've had Mary Ann from time to time say to me, "I just don't feel like we've had an opportunity to talk with one another over the last two or three days," and for a wife that is a sign of drift in the marriage relationship, isn't it? Dennis:          Yeah, and I've had that same conversation with Barbara as well.  I think the reason God gave us romance is He gave us a mysterious emotional love that we were to experience together as a couple.  Even Webster's definition of romance, which talks about excitement, love, adventure – all those words, I think, are a part of what marriage ought to be – Christian marriage.  Our God designed these emotions.  I think romance – romantic love – is a part of the character of God.  May I quote a Christian statesman?  One of the most godly men who has ever lived who wrote a book, "My Utmost For His Highest."  It's been on the best-seller list for years – Oswald Chambers.  Listen to what he said about passion in Christian marriage.  "Human nature, if it is healthy, demands excitement, and if it does not obtain its thrilling excitement in the right way, it will seek it in the wrong.  God never made bloodless stoics.  He makes passionate saints." I love that quote, because I think that's the picture of a God who loves his people and who wired us to have excitement and thrill and adventure.  It's not just for the single people who are involved in courtship, or just for the newly married couple who are just starting out with the high-intensity, high-octane of fresh married love.  No, that romantic love, I believe, was meant to still pull us along and sweep us along in a steady current all the way through our married life. Bob:                And yet it's become almost a cliché, Dennis, to talk about the honeymoon being over.  It does seem that relationships go through some kind of stages. Dennis:          Well, at our FamilyLife Marriage Conference, we talk about there being five phases of marriage deterioration.  In other words, every marriage goes through some predictable phases where it begins to lose steam, and reality begins to set in.  The first phase is what we call the "romance phase," and that's usually dating, honeymoon – it's when we're spending hours to get ready for a date, hours to plan the date.  Each person sees each other at their very best, but it's not a real picture of a real relationship. This phase gives way to Phase 2, which we call the "transition phase," and this is honeymoon or early marriage, and I like to say at this phase – this is where reality begins to edit the illusion.  The illusion of what we thought was a relationship is now being snipped away at by the cold, hard realities of life, and couples begin to make adjustments to each other in their values, their habits, their expectations, and can give way to criticism and snipping at each other, and the feelings begin to lower during this period of time. Well, Phase 2 gives way to Phase 3, which is the full-blown reality phase and, frankly, this is where marriages are either won or lost.  Some of the things that press in against us during this reality phase – moving – a lot of couples move after they get married; differing friends; job changes and stress; conflicting material values – they start seeing how they handle the checkbook; children come along, there's parenting pressures; in-law interference; difficulties; health issues; problems in life – all of these things press in against the relationship and now the illusion has been fully edited. Bob:                And they begin to put a little chill on the romantic side of marriage, don't they? Dennis:          Well, romance is replaced by disappointment and discouragement, and when that begins to fuel the relationship, two people who had turned toward each other in the dating years now can turn against each other, and that really leads us to the fourth phase, the "retaliation phase," and that's where emotional and even physical retaliation becomes an alternative, and it's unthinkable that a couple who had held hands would now cut away at the person they said they wanted to spend the rest of their lives with.  Resentment and bitterness begin to take up residence where romance had once been.  A man begins to sell his life out to his job, because that's where he gets rewards; women to likewise, or she sells her life out to her children, and what begins to happen here is marriage is viewed with despair – no longer expectancy, excitement or thrill.  You don't look forward to getting home in the evening and spending the evening together or the weekends together.  You find a way to allow that relationship to be crowded out.  And that really gives way to the last phase, Phase 5 – that's the "rejection phase," and that's the death of a relationship in which there are really two alternatives – one which is legal divorce, where two people separate and go their own ways or, really, where most relationships end up dying, and that is emotional divorce, where two people just simply withdraw from each other, and there's a truce.  Bob:                It seems like in the early phases that you describe, Dennis, romance is easy.  In the last two phases, it's almost impossible, because of the anger or the bitterness or the other things that have begun to take root.  It's really in that middle phase, the reality phase, where, as you said, the battle for romance is won or lost. Dennis:          You know, that's where we've got to win the battle, is before you ever get to this time of resentment and retaliation and rejection, where you're at the tail-end of the relationship, and you've got to breathe so much life back into the marriage it almost seems hopeless.  But you know what?  I want to go back to that reality phase, because that's where all of us live.  We've all got to learn, in the midst of the time pressures with kids and finances and jobs and health issues – how do we hammer out a Christian life? You know, I've given the better part of two decades here at FamilyLife dedicating myself and this ministry to writing books like, "Staying Close," to helping couples deal with the reality phase, or "Building Your Mate's Self-Esteem," another book where we talked about how you can build up the other person so you don't ever get to the point where you're rejecting your spouse; or the FamilyLife Marriage Conference, which is a weekend to help couples go back to that reality phase, and give them a biblical game plan for how they can move through reality and move on to blessing, where their relationship and love for one another matures and grows, and I think that's exactly what God wants to do, as He instructs us to the scripture.  He is moving us to mature love, commitment, and it's nothing that's not spoken enough about today, and we're going to be talking about it a lot here in the coming days. Bob:                Well, Dennis, some of our listeners are thinkin', "The last thing on my mind is romance at this point.  We've moved into Phases 4 or 5 – retaliation or rejection, and the anger and the bitterness that is a part of this – I can't even think about romance.  Is this series going to apply to me?" Dennis:          I think it will, and we're going to be sensitive to those couples who are finding themselves in unequally yoked marriages where a person is married to someone who is not a believer or someone who is not growing spiritually.  Perhaps Psalm 27, verse 13 would bring some hope – "I would have despaired unless I had believed that I would see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living.  Wait for the Lord, be strong, and let your heart take courage.  Yes, wait for the Lord."  And I think there's a time to wait in prayer, but there may be some things that a person can do in that situation, where you're married to a spouse who is totally apathetic about that relationship, and if you're in that situation, could I encourage you to, yes, do pray, and do ask God to deliver you from despair and begin to give you the courage that only He can give you to build into that marriage and perhaps by adding romance back into that relationship, perhaps that will be the missing ingredient to help your spouse come to faith in Jesus Christ.                         Let me just conclude our broadcast today with some action points that can help you be a better romantic lover of your spouse.  First of all, take a romantic inventory of your relationship.  On a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being excellent, how would you rate romance as a part of your marriage relationship?  Tonight ask your spouse to do that and then compare notes and see how you're doing.                         Secondly, and this comes from the questions book.  You shared about how listeners could get a copy of that – from the questions book, I like to ask Barbara this question all the time, because it really does spark romance in our relationship, and it sounds odd, but I ask her this question – What are the three most romantic times that we've shared together?  What brought those sparks originally?  What's caused romance?  Why would you select that?  And there's something about reliving those romantic moments that I think gives us insight into why our spouse chose that and can also add that excitement back to our relationship today.                         A third application point would be to pray and ask God to help you begin courting your spouse.  You know, there are some listeners who are in a hurting marriage, where that's where they need to start right there – is in prayer asking God to give them some hope, to begin to court their spouse once again. Bob:                Well, let me add a fourth, and that's to join us back here tomorrow at this same time, when we're going to talk about the "romance robbers" in a relationship – the foxes in the vineyard, right? Dennis:          That's right. Bob:                That's on tomorrow's edition of FamilyLife Today.  I hope you can join us for that.  Our engineer is Mark Whitlock, our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today. (Nat King Cole singing "L-O-V-E")                         FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ.  ______________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved.                             www.FamilyLife.com           

Suit deals with Bob's not-showering-problem with a jaunty tune. This episode is not explicit. Kristi Boulton as Suit, Sean Howard as Bob, Eli McIlveen as Sound Designer and Producer https://civilizedpod.com/ Please note that we sent you two versions. A Short version and a Long version. The latter we had to put in the episode art section as it only allowed one MP3 in the audio file. You can choose! TRANSCRIPT (for the short version) SUIT: Hey Bob BOB: What suit? SUIT: What do you call an ant that smells? Deodor-ant. Ha! Ha! Ha! BOB: I think that joke would be funnier, suit, if you said, ""What do you call an ant that doesn't smell anymore?"" because see its deodorant. SUIT: The punchline is less important than what the context of what the joke was, and the harsh reality is that you stink. BOB: Well, yeah suit, because I haven't had a shower because I've been stuck inside - Whoah! Whoah! Why is stuff turning - WATER! What are you doing? SUIT: Don't worry, Bob. I have an internal sanitization system to make sure that I do not stink. BOB: Oh, lovely. SUIT: Here. There is a handy song to remind you of how long you should sanitize. BOTH SINGING: If you have to sanitize, don't get it in your eyes. You must hypothesize, Why you must sanitize. If you do smell like poo, here's what you gotta do You must go sanitize. (repeat) BOB: (crying) Make it stop! ANNOUNCER: This episode of Listen, Rinse, Repeat was improvised by Kristi Boulton and Sean Howard of Civilized. Sound Design by Eli McIlveen.

Today's guest, location-based VR expert Bob Cooney, has been in the XR space since the early 1990s. He drops by the show to give Alan an update on all the newest tech advances he saw at the International Association of Amusement Parks and Attractions Expo, and explains how today is the most exciting time to be working in this industry. Alan: Welcome to the XR for Business podcast with your host, Alan Smithson. Today’s guest is always on the bleeding edge of technology. He’s able to predict both tech and business trends. Bob Cooney is widely considered one of the world’s foremost experts on location based virtual reality, and the author of the book “Real Money from Virtual Reality.” I’m really super excited to introduce my good friend and colleague, Bob Cooney to the show. Welcome, Bob. Bob: Oh, dude, I’m so happy to be here. Thanks for having me, Alan. Alan: It’s my absolute pleasure. It’s been a long time coming, this interview. But we’re here. We’re excited. And we just are coming off the heels of *the* major North American show, IAAPA — which for those of you listening and you haven’t been there — it’s basically Disney World for VR, AR, and out-of-home experiences. You were there. Let’s talk about what you saw, and what are the trends coming in out-of-home entertainment. Bob: Yeah, it’s an amazing show. I’ve been going this– I think this is my 27th IAAPA or something like that. And my first one was 1991. And over the last four or five years we’ve seen VR every year just grow in not only the number of companies bringing VR/AR solutions into the market — mostly VR at this point — but the quality is every year measurably increasing. And that’s the thing I think that has me so excited is three or four years ago there was just a literally handful of things that you would even remotely consider as an operator. And last year there was confusion now, because there was– you were starting to see a lot of good stuff and this year it was just overwhelming. And so, yeah, we’ve seen real quality come into the market. Alan: You’ve seen pretty much everything there is out there. What’s one thing that blew your mind this year? Bob: Good question. The rise of unattended virtual reality systems. There was a company called LAI Games, which has been around for decades. They’re based out of Asia. They build arcade games. And a couple of years ago, they took a license from Ubisoft: Raving Rabbids, which is a really popular IP. They merged it with a D-Box motion base and they created a VR ride for family entertainment centers, arcades, and theme parks. It’s a two player ride. It was fairly cost effective, but they recommended it be operated without an attendant, and it was the first VR attraction that came out where you didn’t need to staff it. And the profitability of that really made a big difference for operators. And now this year there was another company called VRsenal, that had an arcade game cabinet with– that was a VR based that was unattended, and it was running Beat Saber, which is obviously one of the most popular games out there. And so we’re starting to see companies realize that maybe we don’t need attendants. Maybe people are smarter than we give them credit for. Maybe they can figure out how to put a headset on their face. Maybe they will clean it by themselves if they care about that. And so I talk about a lot about the four-minute mile, once it was broken. People thought was impossible, people thought if you try to run a four-minute mile, you would die. And once it was proven that it could be done, hundreds of people have done

Today’s guest, location-based VR expert Bob Cooney, has been in the XR space since the early 1990s. He drops by the show to give Alan an update on all the newest tech advances he saw at the International Association of Amusement Parks and Attractions Expo, and explains how today is the most exciting time to be working in this industry. Alan: Welcome to the XR for Business podcast with your host, Alan Smithson. Today’s guest is always on the bleeding edge of technology. He’s able to predict both tech and business trends. Bob Cooney is widely considered one of the world’s foremost experts on location based virtual reality, and the author of the book “Real Money from Virtual Reality.” I’m really super excited to introduce my good friend and colleague, Bob Cooney to the show. Welcome, Bob. Bob: Oh, dude, I’m so happy to be here. Thanks for having me, Alan. Alan: It’s my absolute pleasure. It’s been a long time coming, this interview. But we’re here. We’re excited. And we just are coming off the heels of *the* major North American show, IAAPA — which for those of you listening and you haven’t been there — it’s basically Disney World for VR, AR, and out-of-home experiences. You were there. Let’s talk about what you saw, and what are the trends coming in out-of-home entertainment. Bob: Yeah, it’s an amazing show. I’ve been going this– I think this is my 27th IAAPA or something like that. And my first one was 1991. And over the last four or five years we’ve seen VR every year just grow in not only the number of companies bringing VR/AR solutions into the market — mostly VR at this point — but the quality is every year measurably increasing. And that’s the thing I think that has me so excited is three or four years ago there was just a literally handful of things that you would even remotely consider as an operator. And last year there was confusion now, because there was– you were starting to see a lot of good stuff and this year it was just overwhelming. And so, yeah, we’ve seen real quality come into the market. Alan: You’ve seen pretty much everything there is out there. What’s one thing that blew your mind this year? Bob: Good question. The rise of unattended virtual reality systems. There was a company called LAI Games, which has been around for decades. They’re based out of Asia. They build arcade games. And a couple of years ago, they took a license from Ubisoft: Raving Rabbids, which is a really popular IP. They merged it with a D-Box motion base and they created a VR ride for family entertainment centers, arcades, and theme parks. It’s a two player ride. It was fairly cost effective, but they recommended it be operated without an attendant, and it was the first VR attraction that came out where you didn’t need to staff it. And the profitability of that really made a big difference for operators. And now this year there was another company called VRsenal, that had an arcade game cabinet with– that was a VR based that was unattended, and it was running Beat Saber, which is obviously one of the most popular games out there. And so we’re starting to see companies realize that maybe we don’t need attendants. Maybe people are smarter than we give them credit for. Maybe they can figure out how to put a headset on their face. Maybe they will clean it by themselves if they care about that. And so I talk about a lot about the four-minute mile, once it was broken. People thought was impossible, people thought if you try to run a four-minute mile, you would die. And once it was proven that it could be done, hundreds of people have done

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Needs of Kids, Part 1 Guests:                      Dennis and Barbara Rainey                       From the series:       The Art of Parenting: What Kids Need (Day 2 of 3)  Bob: Your kids need you to be a parent. Here's Barbara Rainey.  Barbara: I think there is a movement / I think there is a common thinking today in parents that I see that mom and dad need to be buddies with their kids—they need to be friends / they need to be pals. There's nothing wrong with having that kind of a relationship—like if you go camping or you go to the park—you're going to play together; you're going to do some things together; you're going to get down on the same level; but that isn't the posture that you need to have, as a parent, all the time.  Homes do not need to be child-centric. Homes need to be God-centric, and then mom and dad need to be in charge and directing the life of their child—not being dictated by the children. You need to train your child that he's not the center of the universe, and that's the difference—is helping them begin to understand that they're not in control; they're not in charge.  1:00 They do have needs; they do have wants; and they do have feelings; but they aren't / don't always have to be met immediately.  Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, September 6th. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. Your kids need to know that you love them, and that you care about them, and that you are their friend; but they need to know, first, that you are their parent and that you have authority over them. We're going to talk more about that today with Dennis and Barbara Rainey. Stay with us.  And welcome to FamilyLife Today.  2:00 Thanks for joining us. You know, if you stop and think about it, there is a reason that God, in His wisdom, gave kids to moms and dads.  Dennis: Oh, you think? [Laughter] Why do you think He did that, Bob?  Bob: Well, I've been reading your book; so I know the answer to why He did that. [Laughter] Kids need a mom and a dad to do what moms and dads are supposed to do so that the kids grow up with an understanding of who they are and what they are all about; don't they?  Dennis: Psalm 127, verses 3-5 say this—listen carefully—some parents who I read this to right now don't believe this, because they have real problems with their kids—we understand that: “Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children of one's youth. Blessed is the man who fills his quiver with them. He shall not be put to shame when he speaks with his enemies in the gate.”  3:00 Children are a gift to be received. They are arrows to be raised; and then they are also arrows that were meant to be released. They were not designed to stay in the quiver; they were meant to be designed for a target.  Bob: And if parents are going to raise their kids successfully, they need to know what their assignment is.  Your wife Barbara is back again today. Barbara, welcome back to FamilyLife Today.  Barbara: Thank you, Bob.  Bob: Do you think most moms and dads start the parenting journey understanding what it is that they are supposed to do?  Barbara: Probably not. I would say they probably have some ideas of what they want to do. I think they probably have some ideas of what they don't want to do / what they don't want to repeat. Most young couples come in and say, “I'm not going to do it the way my parents did,”— Bob: Right.  Barbara: —or “I don't want to do it the way I saw it done by So-and-so.”  I think they have a vague, general idea; but parenting is such a hands-on learning experiencing.  4:00 I often say that a woman can read a dozen books—on how to have a baby, what's it's like to have a baby, what's happening inside, what you can expect—but until she actually goes through the experience, it's all theory. In some ways, that's true with parenting, too; because you can read tons of books; but once you get in there—and you know who your kids are / you know who you are; and you're beginning to figure out, “How do we work together?”—then, that's when you really need to have practical help.  Bob: My preparation for parenting happened over six summers from 1972 until 1977.  Dennis: Boy Scouts?  Bob: It was YMCA Camp Lakewood in Potosi, Missouri.  Dennis: I was close; I was close!  Bob: I was a camp counselor for many years at Camp Lakewood. As we would have kids come into the cabin, it was my job to take care of those kids for the week. I caught on: “Here's the big idea of parenting. You want your kids to have a blast every day and sleep well at night.” [Laughter]  Dennis: —“and be clothed.”  5:00 Bob: “You feed them, and you make sure they get to the bathroom”; but you—the whole idea is to have fun. I really think, when we had our kids, that's what I reverted to: “My job here is to make sure that they have a fun time in life— Barbara: —“and they are tired at night.”  Bob: —“and they are tired at night. They sleep all night long.”  There is a little more to it than just your kids having fun.  Dennis: There is. I'm glad you illustrated that, because I would have said that was mine as well. You would say that for— Barbara: What?—that I would say that was your expectation?  Dennis: Yes; wouldn't you say that?  Barbara: Probably; yes.  Bob: His goal was fun with the kids?  Barbara: Yes; for sure.  Dennis: Yes; she would see me come in after work and says: “You're just always having fun with the kids! I've been here all day with these— Barbara: Problem-solving, constantly, all day long.  Dennis: —“with these rug rats wrapped around my legs; and they are dragging me around,” and I [Dennis] come home and have fun with them.  Bob: Yes; so when you sat down to write the book that you've just completed, The Art of Parenting, you took a chapter and you said, “We want to help moms and dads know what their kids need.” Fun may be a part of that, but there is more to it than fun.  6:00 You decided, in this book, you were just going to tweet out the answers to the parents; right?  Dennis: Well, most of them are millennials, who are parents today.  Bob: Right.  Dennis: I wanted to get their attention. I thought, “Can we give our top ten tips of what every child needs in 288 characters or less?”  Bob: I bet you were glad they expanded Twitter® from 140.  Dennis: I was. [Laughter] Barbara: Yes.  Dennis: I really was.  Barbara: Yes; that did help us.  Dennis: We did do that. We'd just like to share our top ten Twitter tweets to equip moms and dads to understand what their kids need today.  Number ten: “They need a home that is not child-centric.”  Barbara: I think that's a really big one, even though it is number ten. Actually, they are all pretty important; but anyway, nonetheless, number ten. I think that's really important today; because I think there is a movement / I think there is a common thinking today in parents that I see that mom and dad need to be buddies with their kids—that they need to be friends / they need to be pals.  7:00 There is nothing wrong with having that kind of relationship—like if you go camping or you go to the park—you're going to play together; you're going to do some things together; you're going to get down on the same level; but that isn't the posture you need to have, as a parent, all the time.  Homes do not need to be child-centric. Homes need to be God-centric; and then mom and dad need to be in charge and directing the life of their child—not being dictated by the children.  Bob: You know, here is the thing—when your kids are born, their needs are—we're talking survival. We're talking about the child is— Barbara: Right.  Bob: —dependent on you for everything.  Barbara: And his needs supersede parents'.  Bob: It's very easy for us, as parents, to fall right into that and go: “This child can't survive without me. My spouse can survive without me. The whole world can survive without me; but not this child.” So, from the beginning, we think, “My number one job is this child.”  8:00 It's easy for the home to, then, become child-centered.  Barbara: It is the job of parents to keep that child alive, and your child does need you to survive; but you need to train your child that he's not the center of the universe. That's the difference—is helping them begin to understand that they're not in control; they are not in charge. They do have needs; they do have wants; and they do have feelings; but they aren't / don't always have to be met immediately.  You're right. It is easy to fall into that with newborns, because their needs are so important when they are tiny.  Dennis: Bob, I hate to correct you, here, on the broadcast; but each of these tweets are to take 288 characters or less, and you just burned up 765 as you illustrated it there. [Laughter]  Number nine is one you believe in strongly, Barbara—go ahead.  Barbara: Yes. Number nine is: “A home led by intentional and purposeful parents.”  Bob: Do you want to speak to that, Mr. Intentional?—[Laughter]—since that's how your son referred to you.  Dennis: Well, here's the rest of the tweet—  9:00 —it says: “Being intentional means investing lots of time planning, making wise decisions, and assuming responsibility for raising the next generation. Purposeful means working to be in agreement on discipline, boundaries, and standards.”  Bob: Again, I have to tell you—my orientation toward parenting, when we had our kids, was more spontaneous than purposeful: “What is the need of the moment?”—not—“What is the need of the year?—or the need of the next decade in the life of this child?” When you're thinking in the moment, you're missing the strategic purpose of parenting; you're just dealing with dailyness of it.                                                                                                 Dennis: See, here is where the Bible pulls you out of the daily stuff and the horizontal and lifts you to the vertical. The Bible is constantly challenging you to teach your child to think like an eternal creature, because they are  Barbara: Right.  Dennis: —like a boy or a girl, who was created in the image of God—like one, who God has a mission and purpose for. 10:00 They are not just random molecules. Children are God's gift to this generation, and what we have to do is equip them to think rightly about themselves.  Bob: Our friend / our mutual friend, Tim Kimmel, says in The Art of Parenting™ video series—he says, “When you realize how long your child's going to live, it changes everything.” Then, he says, “I happen to know how long every child's going to live—they live forever.” When you are parenting with eternity in mind / when you are parenting with the idea, “This child is going to live forever,” that does reorient and refocus what you're doing.  Barbara: Exactly.  Dennis: You did a little better on that—that was 500 characters, Bob. [Laughter] Number eight.  Barbara: Number eight is: “A secure home,”—and we're talking about more than just an alarm system, and child safety locks, and car seats in the car. We're talking about the kind of security that comes from emotional stability and having a peaceful environment at home.  One of the biggest keys to kids feeling safe at home is building a strong marriage, because marriage has to come first.   11:00 It's important for moms and dads to make sure that their marriage is strong, and stable, and secure, and you're feeding your marriage at the same time that you are feeding your kids.  Bob: A strong, healthy marriage can cover a multitude of other failings for parents; can't it?  Dennis: It's been said, over and over again, that the most important thing your children need to know, practically, as they are growing up is that mommy and daddy love each other. They're surrounded with kids—at school, on the playground, in their neighborhood—who are growing up in homes, where that's not the case. They are wanting to know: “Are my mom and dad going to hang in there and go the distance?”  I remember, in 1953, a fight/an argument—not physical, but an emotionally-heated moment—in my parents' marriage, where, as a little boy, I asked the question: “Are Mom and Dad going to make it?   12:00 “Are they going to get a divorce?” I remember shaking out of fear.  Now, that was 1953, when divorce was never heard of. I went to school, all the way through high school as a young man, with only one classmate who grew up in a broken home. Today, your children are growing up with 60 percent of their classmates coming from a home of—either a single-parent family / a blended family—something other than an intact family that goes the distance for a lifetime.  Our children need to feel secure, and the way they can feel secure is if they know their mom and dad are committed to one another for a lifetime.  Bob: Okay; this time you went way over your tweet limit. [Laughter]  Barbara: That's true.  Bob: So, what's number seven?  Barbara: Number seven: “Parents who pray together every day.” This is something that Dennis and I have done since the early months of our marriage.  Dennis: It was December of 1972.  Barbara: Yes; Dennis went and talked to a friend of ours—who had been married, at the time, 27 years, I think; they had four or five kids—  13:00 —and asked him: “What was the most important advice he would give him, as a new husband, and for us, together, as a newly married couple?” He said, “You should pray together with your wife every day.  Dennis has told this story multiple times—that he was shocked it was something so simple and seemingly so insignificant. Yet, we began to pray together every day; and it's not long-winded—most of the times, it's not. We're not praying through every need that we know of. We're not naming every name of someone who needs intercession. We pray very simply, but we do pray together every single day. Of course, we pray at meals too; but that [prayer] has made a big difference in our marriage, because we, together, come before God and we humble ourselves before Him.  Bob: So, why does that matter, as parents? I can see where it bonds you together in your marriage, but how does it affect your parenting?  Barbara: Well, if you are humble together before God, you're submitting to Him and to His authority in your life.  14:00 Then, you're going to be much more receptive to His leading you in how you raise your kids; and you're going to have more unity. Now, that's not going to be automatic. You're still going to have to work through things; but if you pray together, and you're seeking God together, then you're going to be more open to His guidance in your life.  Dennis: I love the way Ephesians, Chapter 3, concludes—it just reminds us of the truth about God. Why wouldn't you want to pray if this is true about God? “Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly than all we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.” It's a prayer of sorts in the Book of Ephesians.  Bob, if God's in charge—if He knows what our kids are up to / if He loves them more than us, and He does—He knows how to get their attention. I think, sometimes, it's the parents' prayers that bring children back to their faith, even as adults; because they've been tracked down by the Lord God Almighty, who is now answering the prayers of parents over a number of years. 15:00 Bob: Okay; we're talking about what kids need from a mom and dad. This is from your new book, The Art of Parenting. You're giving us tweets—just the bullet points on what our children need. What is tweet number six?  Dennis: Number six: “Parents who don't freak out when their children fail or caught lying, stealing, kissing under the stairs at the church— Bob: Wait, wait; wait.  Dennis: —sneaking out— Bob: Did that happen? Did that happen with somebody?  Dennis: Yes—not one of our kids. [Laughter] Bob: Okay.  Barbara: Not one of our kids.  Dennis: —hiding things, making stupid choices, doing drugs, and even more. They also don't freak out when their children have doubts or pushback against their parents' faith.”  Bob: Barbara, this is tough— Barbara: This is real hard; yes.  16:00 Bob: —because when you see your kids making bad choices / doing childish things, you can get a little freaked out, as a mom.  Barbara: But this is why it's so important—and I agree with you totally, because I freak out as a mom—but this is why it's so important that parents are growing their own relationship with God; because if you are, then you understand, and you can remind yourself: “Oh, that's right. My child is a sinner. My child has a wicked heart. My child needs to be saved. My child needs to be redeemed and needs God to work in my child's life.”  When your child does these things, it's not so much your fault as much as it is a reflection of what your child's heart is. Your child's heart needs a relationship with God. The more moms and dads can be grounded in their faith, and taking their children before the throne of God, the less caught off guard you're going to be. You'll still be caught off guard some; but you'll go, “Okay, this is a reflection of the work that God needs to do in my child's life.”  17:00 Bob: One of the things that Elyse Fitzpatrick, who was a contributor to the Art of Parenting video series, said—that I thought was very helpful—she said, “A lot of parents are discipling children for being childish.” She said: “That's what children do. When they are being disobedient, you discipline them. When they are being childish, you've got to leave room for there to be childish irresponsibility and not freak out when a four-year-old is acting like a four-year-old.”  Dennis: I'll tell you—we've been on the receiving end of a teacher calling from school, saying, “Your child was caught cheating on a test.” Now, never mind, when I was a college student, I cheated on a computer test. Now, it's easy to forget what you were like when you were that age; you know? [Laughter] But it's back to what you were talking about, Bob—a proper view and understanding that we're all broken / we're all just a step away from doing something really, really tragic can help us in not freaking out. 18:00 Bob: You know, it is one thing, Dennis, when you see your kids making childish choices—they're writing on the walls or they get into a wreck with the car and knock over mailboxes—that kind stuff has happened to you; right?  Dennis: Oh, yes.  Bob: Yes.  Dennis: We've got—one of our children holds the record number of rear-end collisions.  Bob: —in the state of Arkansas? [Laughter]  Dennis: No; in our family—that's the record—not in the state.  Bob: It's something else, though, when your kids are starting to have doubts/questions. They are starting to wonder about whether there really is a God, and whether they want to follow Him, and about the moral choices they are going to make as teenagers, about the spiritual choices they are going to make. It's pretty tough, as parents, not to become anxious when you start to see some of these things emerging in a child's life.  Barbara: Well, especially, if your number one goal is for your children to walk with God; and that was our number one goal.  19:00 I think our kids pick up on that too; but again, parents need to remember: “What were you like when you were that age? Were you questioning? Were you wondering?” Just embrace those questions, as hard as it is to do, and “Let's talk about it.” Understand that everyone is going to go through that; and if you react, your kids are going to go, “Oh, I can push her button by talking this way.” You're giving them an entree into them controlling, which isn't healthy.  So, not freaking out is a big one. It really is important that you do it as little as possible; but it is a hard one to not freak out, because we love our kids so much. We don't want them to suffer, and we sort of mistakenly think that we can prevent a lot of that.  Bob: We've had guests, over the years, who have coached in this regard. I remember one guest saying, “You have to practice your not-freaking-out face.” As a parent, you need to kind of prepare for—imagine a child saying, “So, I just found out my best friend is a lesbian.”  20:00 As a parent, all of a sudden, it's like: “A what?!”—but you have to go—“Oh, that is interesting. How did you learn that?”  Barbara: “Tell me more.”  Bob: —and ask questions. All the anxiety that's bubbling up in you, in those moments, you have to figure out how you're going to just keep that in the background while you interact with that child.  Dennis: This really goes back to an earlier point we made, where the home needs to be a safe place/a secure place, where you can bring your doubts out into the open. I just want to ask—every parent, every grandparent, every aunt and uncle—who is listening to this broadcast: “Wouldn't you rather your child, or your grandchild, your nephew/your niece—wouldn't you rather them express that doubt—that question/that rebellion—against God to you rather than express it with their friends and have peer pressure shape the answer?  I wish I could say, Bob, that Barbara and I really did this perfectly.  21:00 We didn't. There were times when we did freak out, but you have to tell your face something different than what you're feeling. You've just got to stonewall it a little bit and say, “Oh,”—like you said, Bob—“Oh, really? Let's talk more about that.”  I've got a friend—one of his children came back and said, “I don't believe in God anymore.” “Oh, okay; that's interesting. Let's talk about what's happened that's caused you to come to that conclusion. What's the evidence? How are you weighing?—what are you thinking?”  Bob: Then, you have to, in the midst of that, resist the temptation in that dialogue to want to get them right back on track.  Dennis: Oh, you can't preach at that moment!  Barbara: Immediately; right.  Bob: That's right.  Dennis: You can't preach. You have to be a shock-absorber for that child to be able to pushback and become his or her own person. They've got to have their own faith / their own experience with God. I think that's why this one is so important. Parents don't need to freak out. They need to be shock-absorbers for their kids to be able to test their parents and see how their parents respond. 22:00 Bob: We're going to have to come back tomorrow to get through the rest of this list of tweets for parents about what our assignment is, as a mom or as a dad. I'd encourage our listeners—if you're not already signed up to get a copy of Dennis and Barbara Rainey's new book, The Art of Parenting, you can pre-order, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call to place your pre-order. Our number is 1-800-FL-TODAY.  The Art of Parenting video series is available; and there are churches that are already showing our movie, Like Arrows, as a way to kick-off the parenting series. There is an Art of Parenting, free, online series that moms and dads can go through as well. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com to find out more about all of the Art of Parenting resources we have available, including Dennis and Barbara Rainey's brand-new book. Our website, again, is FamilyLifeToday.com; or call if you have any questions or if you'd like to order by phone: 1-800-FL-TODAY— 23:00 —1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.”  A quick reminder: Tonight, at 7 o'clock Central time, we're going to be connecting with many of our Legacy Partners, who are joining us for a FamilyLife® Legacy Partner Connect event. We'll spend a little less than an hour doing Q&A around parenting, and our Legacy Partners are invited to join us. Not only will the two of you [Dennis and Barbara] be with us, but FamilyLife's new President, David Robbins, and his wife Meg are going to be here as well. We'll be interacting, and taking questions, and talking about parenting issues.  This is one of the ways that we want to express our gratitude for those of you who are monthly Legacy Partners. You are the ones who have made today's program possible for everybody who has been listening—not only here in this country—but all around the world. We are so grateful for the partnership we have together. We look forward to talking to you tonight.  Again, if you're signed up for the call, you'll get a phone call just before 7 o'clock Central time.  24:00 If you're not signed up, you can call us at 1-800-FL-TODAY; we'll get everything coordinated so that you get a phone call and can be part of the Legacy Partner Connect event tonight—again, at 7 o'clock Central time. Look forward to talking to you then.  And we hope you can join us back tomorrow as we continue with our tweets for parents—the big ideas around parenting. Dennis and Barbara Rainey will be back again tomorrow. I hope you can be here as well.  I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com  

Reading to Children (Part 1) - Sally Lloyd-JonesReading to Children (Part 2) - Sally Lloyd-JonesFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. God Breaking into History Guest:                        Sally Lloyd-Jones                  From the series:       Telling Stories to Children (Day 1 of 2)      Bob: One of the challenges that families often face during the Christmas season is how to or even whether to blend in the holiday traditions with the biblical story of Christmas. Here's some thoughts from author, Sally Lloyd-Jones.  Sally: You know, I became a Christian when I was four. I am sure, the first four years of my life, we were—it was more Santa Claus. Father Christmas was the big person looming in your life when you're little. I suppose the excitement of: “He's coming!” and everything like that—that's not so dissimilar to what you—actually, is the truth of Christmas. It's exciting; because your rescuer is coming, which is much more exciting than “Santa's coming with presents.” Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Thursday, December 7th. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. Sally Lloyd-Jones joins us today to talk about how we keep Jesus at the center of the Christmas season. Stay with us.  1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us.  Dennis: How's your English accent, Bob? [Laughter] Bob: Terrible. [Laughter] Dennis: You have a great impersonation of Jerry Falwell.  Bob: Yes; but— Dennis: Can I hear your Sally Lloyd-Jones? [Laughter] Bob: I'm not that clever! [Laughter] No; mine would be [speaking with English accent]:  Look at her, a person of the gutters, Condemned by every syllable she utters. By right, she ought to be taken out and hung For the cold-blooded murder of the English tongue! Sally: That's brilliant. Bob: Thank you. Barbara: I know that one. Bob: Do you? Barbara: I watched that over, and over, and over. Bob: That's Henry Higgins. Don't you know Henry Higgins? Sally: Of course! I was just testing. [Laughter] Bob: If you could have anybody come to your house and tell the Christmas story to your kids at Christmas time, who would—wouldn't you want Sally Lloyd-Jones coming and telling the Christmas story to your kids? Dennis: I think a wonderful story I'd love to hear—just to hear George tell the Christmas story. Barbara: Oh, A Wonderful Life! [Laughter]  Bob: George Bailey? Dennis: Yes! Bob: [Imitating George Bailey] “Help me, Clarence. Help me! [Laughter] Get me out of here!”  Sally: He's very good; isn't he?  2:00 Bob: [Imitating George Bailey] “Get me back to my wife and kids!” Sally: You love films, I guess. Bob: I do; I do. Dennis: When it's Christmas time—this happens to Bob every 11 months—so just put up with it if you would. [Laughter] I just introduced, very casually there, Sally Lloyd-Jones, who joins us again on FamilyLife Today. She was born and raised in Africa, schooled in England, lives in New York City. She is the New York Times author of a bestselling book—one of them she has written is called The Jesus Storybook Bible. Bob: I think everybody listening to FamilyLife Today has The Jesus Storybook Bible—feels like. How many copies? Sally: Two point five million. Barbara: Then I think you're right—it is everybody. Bob: Everybody I run into— Barbara: I have one, and I don't have children at home. I have mine marked—I love it! [Laughter] Sally: Oh. The most exciting thing to me is its now in 34 languages. Bob: Oh, that's wonderful. Dennis: That's cool! Barbara: Wow! Dennis: What's your favorite language out of those 34?  3:00 Sally: Well, I'm really excited about Arabic—it's just been translated into Arabic. What I love to say is, “I wrote a book I can't read,”—[Laughter]—actually, three of them! Dennis: And is it in Mandarin? Sally: I think it is. Bob: That's great! Dennis: That reaches a few people too.  Also joining us is my wife Barbara. Tell them about Sally's book that we're also talking about this Christmas. Barbara: We're talking about this book that she wrote for children for Christmas: Song of the Stars: A Christmas Story. I just think it's a great idea to have books to read to your kids during the different seasons, because we have all these traditions that we do. I remember when we were raising our kids—there were certain books that we read, every season, that were favorites. I think this one will become a favorite of many families to read, year after year, with your children.  Bob: We had, in our library at home, it was called The Holiday Story Book. There were stories for every holiday of the year. So you'd open it and read one for Valentine's Day or whatever. I never read any of them except the Christmas one. I remember it was a story of a car in an old car lot that was sitting there.  4:00 Nobody wanted to buy this old car—it was a clunker and barely ran. Apparently, as I remember it, Santa's sleigh malfunctioned right over the car lot; and he had to hook up the reindeer to the car.  Sally: That's very good. Bob: All of a sudden, this old clunker of a car became Santa's sleigh for the holidays. There was something about reading it that was kind of my Christmas rituals to get me ready for the holidays.  Barbara: It had a bit of a redemption story to it—that's why it rang true. Bob: There is something about story, at Christmastime, and the opportunity for parents to engage with their children around the Christmas story, that is meaningful on a whole variety of levels; isn't it?  Sally: Yes; I love that tradition—like Barbara said. We love traditions; don't we? Dennis: Yes. Sally: I love—you know, that we have several days before Christmas to get ready for Christmas. You have lots of opportunities. Dennis: So how will you spend Christmas in New York City? Sally: Well, the thing is—I end up in England, really—so I never have been in New York on Christmas day. Dennis: Oh, New York City is delightful that time of year! Sally: Yes. Dennis: I mean, Barbara and I have been there. There is definitely a nip in the air. That city is— Sally: Oh, it's magical. 5:00 Barbara: It is magical. Dennis: It's dressed up—it is really dressed up. Sally: And again, talk about traditions—you have The Nutcracker you can go to every year.  Dennis: Yes. Sally: You know, The Messiah— Dennis: Yes. Sally: —all these lovely things.  In England, one of the traditions that's one of my favorites is Kings College Choir carols on Christmas Eve. Barbara: That would be wonderful. Sally: It's broadcast on the radio. Apparently, it's been broadcast since like, I think, the war—or even before. One of the stories I love is that—it's a boy choir / a male voice choir. They have little boys who might be six/seven. The whole broadcast begins with Once in Royal David's City; but the first verse is sung so low by one of the youngest boys. So they don't get completely freaked out—the choir master chooses three boys and trains them. Just like maybe seconds before the broadcast begins, he taps the boy that he's chosen on the head and he sings it; and he has no chance to get nervous. [Laughter] Dennis: Are you kidding me?! All three of them will get nervous! [Laughter] Sally: Yes; right! [Laughter] But it's so beautiful—that voice—the pure voice of a young boy singing Once in Royal David's City and the acoustics—to me, that's one of the high points of Christmas. 6:00 Dennis: So what do you do in England for Christmas? Tell us how you celebrate. Sally: You know, we do have the edge on everyone; because we know how to do Christmas. [Laughter] Dennis: What's that?! Barbara: What is that edge? Yes; I want to know. Sally: Because we have Christmas pudding—figgy pudding as Dickens would call it.  Bob: Yes. Dennis: Hold it; hold it! What's that made of?—Christmas pudding? Sally: It's sounds horrid, but it's delicious. I'm going to describe it, but you have to realize it's delicious. Bob: Okay. Sally: It's got currents, raisins—see, your faces already— Barbara: No; so far, so good—I love currents and raisins. Dennis: Yes.  Sally: It's got some liquor in it, but it gets burned away. [Laughter] Dennis: This is why the English like it!! [Laughter] Sally: And you have it with brandy butter. Oh, yes, there's a lot of liquor in it. [Laughter] Dennis: You've got brandy in it! Sally: Is this allowed on your program? Dennis: That's what you have to do with your food in England. [Laughter] 7:00 Sally: It's a merry Christmas. [Laughter] Dennis: I'm sorry—I'm really sorry for that. We've been to England and your food—you got to cross the—  Barbara: —the Channel. Dennis: —the English Channel— Sally: But then, we also wear hats at Christmas—crowns / the paper crowns that come out of Christmas crackers. Now, you're really lost; aren't you? Christmas crackers—I don't even know how to describe them. Barbara: I know what they are. Sally: You pull them, and they bang, and inside is a hat and a present. Then, we drop everything at 3:00—we go and listen to the Queen's speech— Bob: On Christmas Day? Sally: —on Christmas Day. So, wherever you are with your Christmas meal, you stop everything—go and watch the Queen give a speech. She gives this incredible speech. You know, you have to really be reverent. Sometimes, the grandchildren are doing terribly naughty things, and my mother gives them a look. We all have to stand up when the anthem happens. This has happened—  Barbara: —forever. Sally: —forever and ever. Barbara: How long does— Dennis: What does she speak on? I mean— Barbara: That's what I want to know. How long—  Sally: She's amazing, actually. I mean, I'm a huge fan. If you think about how faithful she has been for how long—  Dennis: Oh, yes. Sally: Her whole idea about duty versus—you know—of course, I am a big fan of The Crown. Did you watch The Crown?   Barbara: Oh, yes, we did. It was wonderful. Sally: I'm sorry; I'm going all over the place. Dennis: Oh, yes; we did. That was very good. 8:00 Barbara: We thought it was— Sally: I'm mad on it, because you really believe Claire Foy is Queen.  Dennis: You're mad about it? Sally: Mad, in a British way, is— Barbara: —is crazy! Sally: —crazy. Dennis: I knew what you said! [Laughter] Bob: Here's my question for you— Sally: They are very naughty, these people! [Laughter]  Bob: I want to know, if we could invite you over to everybody's house to tell the Christmas story to our kids and grandkids, would you just pull out your book and read it to them?—or how would you engage a child in the story / the biblical story of Christmas if you were sitting down with them? 9:00 Sally: Well, I like, sometimes, to say, “When does Christmas begin?” and get them to sort of—it's always good to ask them a question; because what you want to do is get them—as they say, you're tuning your audience. Sometimes, I'll resort to pantomime effects—so you'll say/ask them a question; and they'll answer. You say: “I am sorry I can't hear you. Could you say it louder?”—until they are shouting. Then, if you've got parents there as well, you set up parents against the children. That way you have them where you want them.  And then I would say to them, “So, when do you think Christmas begins?” and they'll tell you, “When the star goes in the sky,” “When Jesus is born,” “When…”—whatever they're going to say. Hopefully, they won't / none of them will say: “Actually, it begins even before there were stars in the sky / it begins even before there was anything. Before anything was there, God had a dream in His heart; and Christmas began in that dream,” and start there, because it's not expected.                                                                     I always think the most important thing is to set up the longing and expectation, so that when Christmas day comes, we don't just go, “Oh, it's any old day.” We get the sense that God's people were waiting, for thousands of years, for this and that this was a promise fulfilled. It's not just a sweet story—it's the most incredible thing about God breaking into history. 10:00 Bob: When you think about communicating biblical truth to kids, you want to make sure that the story is in a very broad context, not just an isolated story. Why is that? Sally: I find that's how my heart gets got. If I see it in the big scope / if I see that none of this is just happenstance—it's all a plan and that it started with God's—just the idea that God was planning to bless us before He made us, and He knew it would all go wrong; but He still made us—that's what melts my heart. I think that's the truth in the Bible; isn't it? If you just take one story at a time, they're wonderful; but it's when you see them in the context of the big story and you see that it's a love story, that's when your heart gets changed. Dennis: When you were a little girl, do you remember the time when Christmas, the story of Christmas, grabbed your heart and captured your imagination? Sally: I don't know if I remember exactly that. I knew I loved Christmas and I loved the fact that I knew Jesus was my best friend always, ever since I was four. 11:00 Dennis: You didn't just celebrate Christmas in England, at that point; you went back to— Sally: We were in Africa. Dennis: —Africa. Sally: So, we were having—I don't know if we were still doing hats, and eating Christmas pudding, and all that stuff. We probably went to the beach. I think that's what we did on Christmas Day. Dennis: So what country? Sally: Uganda. First of all, Kampala; and then we moved to Nairobi and Kenya. So, Christmas, for me, was amidst wild animals and jungles, and that kind of—savannahs and stuff— Bob: In a tropical climate, not where there's snow falling. Sally: No. And I do remember—actually, the first thing I do remember, when I came to England, was the first time I saw snow. I thought it was ice cream coming down. [Laughter] Barbara: And you were how old? Sally: I was probably six. Barbara: Oh, amazing. Bob: So, did the biblical story of Christmas compete in your heart with the traditions of Christmas?—with St. Nicholas, with Santa Claus, with all of that? Sally: Yes; I mean, Father Christmas was the big person looming in your life when you're little.  12:00 And you know, I became a Christian when I was four; so I'm sure, the first four years of my life, we were—it was more Santa Claus. But there's something—I know there are big debates about whether you should have Santa Claus. I didn't find it harmful at all. I never thought anything other than it was—I mean, I remember being devastated when I found out he wasn't real; but I soon got over it.  Bob: So you were able to separate that that was fantasy and that the biblical story was history. Sally: Yes; yes. I didn't find that confusing. Bob: Why do you think that was clear to you? Sally: Because I suppose—I'd met Jesus and I knew He was my best friend—I wouldn't want it any other way. There was something lovely about it—you know, the whole excitement. I suppose the excitement of, “He's coming,” and everything like that—that's not so dissimilar to what you—actually, is the truth of Christmas—it's exciting because your rescue is coming, which is much more exciting than, “Santa's coming with presents.” Dennis: And He's coming back! Sally: Yes; yes! Dennis: Not just His first advent— Sally: Exactly. Dennis: —but because the first Christmas occurred, we can look forward to His second advent. 13:00 Sally: Yes; and that is deep in us; isn't it?—that longing for Him to come. Dennis: It really is. Tell us how this book, A Song of the Stars: A Christmas Story, how it captures Christmas to young people. Sally: Well, it's interesting; because that one came because—as I was saying, I was in Africa as a little one. You know, my Christmas was in the wilds of Africa, and there's no snow on the rooftops; but Christmas was coming. I was thinking—we know the story of Bethlehem and how it's so busy and no one noticed Jesus and Mary and Joseph—but I was thinking about the animals and back to my childhood in Africa. I was thinking, “What if the animals knew, and the stars knew, and all the…” because they don't have an argument with their Maker. We're the only ones who have an argument with our Maker. Dennis: [Laughter] That's exactly right. Sally: And they're suffering; aren't they?  Barbara: Right; because of us. Sally: They're suffering because of our sin and the fall, but why wouldn't they have known?  14:00 So I thought, “Well, what if,”—and again, going back to that longing of, “He's coming,”—I thought, “What if, that night, people didn't know because they were too busy; but what if the animals did?”—that's where this book came from. There's a refrain: “It's time. It's time. At last, He's coming!” Barbara: I love that. Bob: Barbara, did you have a hard time, when your kids were little, with the competition between the cultural trappings of Christmas and the spiritual message of Christmas? Barbara: I don't know that we had a hard time as much as we just did—we were very intentional about teaching what Christmas was about. We wanted our kids to understand that it was about Jesus and it was about His birth. We made putting the manger scene up sort of the focal point; but we didn't dismiss Santa, and stockings, and things; because it was fun to pretend and do make-believe. We did all of that; but it was secondary to the real reason for Christmas so that, when our kids found out, I don't think they were devastated. Sally: What was central was the truth. 15:00 Barbara: Right, and I remember being disappointed, when I was a child, finding out that Santa wasn't real; but I don't think our kids were disappointed. I think they always knew that this story about Jesus was what it was really about. This [Santa] was just play—this was fun / this was pretend, and we all enjoyed it—but that wasn't the real message. Dennis: My recollection of Christmas was sprinting to the end, and putting together— Barbara: You mean, as parents?—talking about— Dennis: Yes, as parents. Yes; I just remember getting everything ready—the swing set that I was putting up, in the dark, on Christmas Eve— Bob: You can't get it out and start putting it up until the kids are in bed; right? Barbara: Right; right. Dennis: You can't. And if I had it to do all over again, I think I'd have taken a deep breath; and I think I would have just been more in the moment and not been so frantic about trying to turn the entire Christmas day, especially Christmas morning, into this life-altering seismic experience for our kids. [Laughter] Bob: —a production. Barbara: Yes. 16:00 Dennis: And put a little more effort into enjoying them in the process and celebrating, as Sally is talking about, the real reason for Christmas—celebrating His coming. Bob: A lot of parents will get out their Bible and turn to Luke 2, and they'll read the familiar account of the shepherds, and maybe go to Matthew and read about the wise men; and they will wonder, having read that to their kids: “Did any of that sink in? Did I just read something that their eyes glazed over?” If they want this story to really come alive for their kids, and they're not Sally Lloyd-Jones, what do they do? Sally: Well, they know their children best. I'm just covering all my bases and saying, as a story-teller, what I would do is include all the days leading up to Christmas. Don't rely on just Christmas; because one of the things I think is fun to do is set up a nativity—but don't have Jesus in the nativity, and don't have the shepherds, and don't have the wise men—start introducing them. You know, you could talk about: “There were some shepherds, and they're looking after their sheep. Where shall they be in the house?”— 17:00 —and put them somewhere in the house / same with the wise men. The fun thing about the wise men is—you can have them coming closer and closer to the nativity, every day you move them, until they arrive at the nativity on the—you know— Bob: —on Christmas; yes. Sally: Yes; so you can—I think it's making it interactive and, certainly, not making it a lesson. I think that's my—I would say that: “Don't make it into a lesson. Enjoy the story, because the story is so powerful.” And there are lots of resources. You don't have to—I mean, obviously, reading the biblical account is wonderful; and then read other ways to look at it so that you come at it from different angles. There are all kinds of— Dennis: Yes; that's what I was thinking about. Your book, Song of the Stars, fits in with what Barbara has created for this Christmas—the names of Christ Adorenaments® in stars / His eternal names. Barbara: Well, my dream has been to create something that would help families teach their children who Jesus is, because Christmas is about Jesus. And so I've created this set of ornaments—that each one is a different name of Jesus.  18:00 This year, it is stars; and I've written a piece about following the star—that's what the wise men did. I think—you know, to hitchhike off what we were just saying / you said a few minutes ago—that asking questions is the way to prime your audience. I think, for parents—whether you're hanging the ornaments on the tree about Jesus and His names or whether you're reading the book—the more you can engage with your kids and ask them questions: “Why do you think it's important that we know that Jesus is the Bright and Morning Star?” “What do you think the wise men were thinking when they traveled? How long did it take them to get here?”—make it be something that engages their imagination and their thinking. They are much more likely to, not just remember the story, but want to hear it again; because it was intriguing. Bob: I'd just say, “If you'll sit quiet and listen, we'll have figgy pudding when it's over; okay?” [Laughter] Sally: And they'll run a mile! [Laughter] The other thing I think I've— Dennis: Forget the figgy pudding; let's have some of this British pudding! [Laughter] I thought it was Christmas pudding! Sally: Are you not paying attention, Dennis? 19:00 Dennis: I thought you said Christmas pudding. Sally: Well, no— Barbara: She did say Christmas pudding. Sally: They're both one and the same. Dennis: Oh really?! Sally: Yes. Dennis: I didn't catch that! Sally: Dickens had figgy pudding. Bob: [Singing] “Now bring us our figgy pudding, now bring us our figgy pudding”— Sally: Yes! Dennis: I didn't equate that with Christmas pudding that she described that had all the liquor in it. Sally: I'm sorry about this figgy pudding; it's really bringing the show down. [Laughter]  I was going to mention another great idea, I think, that I've seen people do is—like with Song of the Stars for instance—I'll give that as an example. I do the same thing—I talk about, you know: “The sheep knew,” “The lambs knew, and the Great Shepherd.” So, you could take one day—the Great Shepherd—and then put some beautiful Christmas music on and have your children draw sheep or just spend some time together focusing on sheep. Then, another day, you could talk about the lion knew He was coming—the Lion of Judah. So then, you could draw lions and put on more music.  20:00 I think the more you can engage the different senses and have them creating their own art—and those could become Advent calendars / they could become ornaments— Barbara: I agree. Bob: Trust me, those are things that, 20 years from now, you'll pull out of a file and just delight over. Sally: Yes! Barbara: Absolutely; absolutely. Bob: In fact— Dennis: And in fact, the kids will be fighting over them. Bob: Well, just recently—when our kids were young, our son, David, had a little bit of a flair for art. When he was ten, he did our Christmas card—it was his drawing of the nativity that we sent out as our Christmas card that year—same as when he was eleven.  Well, David's married now. His wife just saw the Christmas cards and she said, “I want those!” And we're going: “No; those belong to Mom and Dad. [Laughter] You have to get him to draw you some new ones.” [Laughter] But it is that kind of a delightful recollection of what Christmas was about, as a child, that you'll look forward to years from now. Sally: Yes. Dennis: Well, regardless—this Christmas, enjoy the moment. Bob: Yes. Dennis: Celebrate the Savior and don't miss the reason for the season. 21:00 Bob: And Sally is not able to come to your home, but her books are; and of course, we have her books in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center—the Christmas story, Song of the Stars; her book, Found, which is the 23rd Psalm for children; and then, of course, The Jesus Storybook Bible. Find out more about what's available to read to your children when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com. And while you're there, look at the resources Barbara has been developing for families at Christmas as well, including her new set of Christmas tree ornaments that talk about the eternal names of Jesus. Again, it's all available, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or call if you have any questions or if you'd like to order by phone: 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” You know, as we're now a few weeks away from the end of 2017, we've started to look back at how God has been at work through the ministry of FamilyLife Today in the last 12 months:  22:00 Dennis wrote a book called Choosing a Life that Matters that was released earlier this year; we've seen more people attending Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways; we've added new cities, and the average attendance is up at our events. There is more hunger than ever for practical biblical help and hope for marriage and family. We've seen more people coming to FamilyLifeToday.com, our website, getting easier access to articles, and audio, and video—they're getting the help they need when they access our content. And of course, our listeners—we're hearing from new folks, every week, who are listening to FamilyLife Today and telling us how God is using this ministry in profound ways in their marriage and in their family. We're grateful for all that God is doing through this ministry, and all of it has been enabled by a relatively small number of listeners—those of you who believe in the mission of this ministry and who want to see it expanded—want to see more people in your community and around the world helped.  23:00 We're grateful for the partnership that we have with listeners, like you, who help support the ministry of FamilyLife®. Of course, right now, as we're approaching the end of 2017, this is a particularly good time to think about making a donation. Our friend, Michelle Hill, is here to explain why. Hello, Michelle. Michelle: Hey Bob, yes it is a good time to donate, which is what John from Los Altos California did…John called and took advantage of the matching fund?... and his donation was matched dollar for dollar...the reason it's a good time Bob is that the matching is going to continue during December, up to a total of two million dollars! So a big thanks to folks like John and Diane and Leona and almost thirteen hundred other folks who've called and given over two hundred sixty five thousand dollars so far…we really appreciate you! Thanks Bob…see you tomorrow 24:00 Bob: And it is easy to join us. You can do that, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; you can call to donate—1-800-FL-TODAY—or you can mail your donation to FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and the zip code is 72223. Thank you for the update, Michelle; and we'll see you back tomorrow. And we hope you'll join us back tomorrow as well. Sally Lloyd-Jones will be with us again, and we're going to continue to talk about how moms and dads can connect with their kids around biblical truth. I hope you can be with us for that conversation.  I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com   

God is Good (Part 1) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 2) - John & Donna BishopGod is Good (Part 3) - John & Donna BishopToday® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Forgetting What Lies Behind  Guest:                        John and Donna BishopFrom the series:       God is So Good  Bob: There are moments that come along unexpectedly – moments where the foundation of our life or our marriage is rattled.  John and Donna Bishop experienced one of those moments 15 years ago. Donna: Everything was just great, we were just having a great time serving the Lord.  Our boys and our families and then, all of a sudden, that night he got sick, and the pain in the back of his head just got severe, and he said, "You're going to have to take me to the hospital," and so I took him to the hospital and … John: When I woke up from meningitis, I did not know her.  I really didn't know anything.  I had a very unusual case of amnesia that I didn't just forget names and people, I forgot everything. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, August 4th.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  What happens to a marriage when, all of a sudden, all the memories, all of the past, is gone.  Stay tuned. And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Monday edition.  This is going to be a powerful week for our listeners. Dennis: It is.  In fact, Bob, you and I both talked about this interview that our listeners are about to hear.  It's a top five broadcast – you and I have been doing interviews for – well, coming up on 16 years – that's a few people.  I'm kind of looking across at you, and I'm kind of going, "That's a long time." Bob: You're an old-looking guy. Dennis: We're kind of getting to be codgers in here.  But, I'm going to tell you, pull up a chair, get you a cup of coffee or a Coke or a glass of water.  This week you are going to hear an incredible compelling story of the goodness of God and the love of God.  This is another one of those love stories, Bob, that Hollywood just knows very little about.  This is a love story right from the pages of Scripture. Bob: Yes, you're going to meet John and Donna Bishop today.  They were married back in 1974.  John is a pastor and an evangelist.  They live in Rosebud, Arkansas, which is in north central Arkansas. Dennis: It's just near Hopewell, which is a suburb of Heber Springs. Bob: Oh, now folks have got it perfectly in mind.  They know exactly where that … Dennis: They know exactly where that is. Bob: John and Donna have three sons, and, as you are about to find out, their story is a remarkable one. John: All I remember is from 1995 to this day.  I remember nothing before that, so everything about my life that happened beforehand is what I've been told.  And my wife, her name, Donna, but I called her "my Donna."  When I woke up from meningitis, I did not know her.  I didn't know me, my name, I didn't know – I really didn't know anything.  I had a very unusual case of amnesia that I didn't just forget names and people, I forgot everything.  I didn't know how to eat, I'd forgotten how to chew food, and I had to eat baby food, and I don't blame babies being grouchy, if you had to eat that long. Dennis: So, okay, I'm going to stop you right there. John: Okay. Dennis: Since Donna does know what was taking place in your life up to 1995, I'm going to turn to her.  Describe your lives in the 1990s, Donna.  What was John doing and what were you up to? Donna: Okay.  We were pastoring a church there in Heber Springs, and we had a good church.  We enjoyed everything was going great.  We had three sons, and they were growing up. We also worked on our youth camp there, lived on the campgrounds and started the youth camp, and were just – I would say it was a perfect life.  You know, everything was just great, we were just having a great time serving the Lord, our boys, and our families, and then, all of a sudden that night he got sick, and the pain in the back of his head just got severe, and he said, "You're going to have to take me to the hospital."  So I took him to the hospital and … Bob: So it came on in an instant like that.  One night? Donna: No, he had been a little sick, just having headaches and so forth, and then it just started getting severe that night, and we just took him to the hospital. Bob: Were you scared? Donna: In a way, you know, because the pain just kept getting worse, you know, so – but, you know, you always think, "Oh, we can take him to the hospital and they'll be fine," you know, "be home tomorrow." Dennis: Right. Donna: But he was there about five days, six days, and he got to feeling better and, of course, once men start feeling better, they want to get out of that hospital, and so he got out of the hospital and came home, and it was almost one month to the day, he got out of the hospital is really when I believe the damage was done, or that's when something happened that he was sitting in his rocking chair, had his devotions over in a rocking chair, and he just kept sitting there and sitting there, and I thought, "Okay," you know, "let's get on with things," and he just kept sitting there.  And so I went over and shook him, and he couldn't wake up, he couldn't – he was just kind of staring off. And I said, "John, what's the matter John?"  And I was talking to him, and he just couldn't answer me, and then, of course, we took him back to the doctor, and it was just from there on it's been slow go. Bob: Now, the diagnosis was aseptic meningitis? Donna: Yes, sir. Bob: And this response, a month after the initial diagnosis, this is not what usually happens to people who have meningitis, is it? Donna:  No, sir.  You know, I don't know, I'm not a doctor, but I don't know if we didn't give him the medicine long enough or exactly what it is, but I know the Lord has a reason for it, and so – because that was when everything started going down hill, you might say, to us, you know, because he couldn't walk, and we had to help him around, and his eyes were distorted, so he couldn't drive, and he couldn't – well, he didn't know how to read, he forgot how to read. Dennis: And, ultimately, he lost all of his memory prior to 1995? Donna:  Yes, sir.  And I kept thinking, "Okay, now, he'll get it back," so he didn't remember marriage or wedding, and so I get our photo album out, and I said, "Don't you remember" you know, and I'd try to trick him to say, "Okay, now, I know he can remember something," and I just kept trying to go back and – but he just doesn't have anything. Dennis: In 1995, you'd been married how long? Donna: Twenty-four years. Dennis: Twenty-four years, had three children, you were pastoring a church, and you'd started a ranch? Donna: Yes, sir.  It's a youth camp, a church youth camp for boys and girls that come there. Dennis: All right, John, back to you.  How do you develop a relationship with a wife that you don't remember marrying? Bob: Well, you didn't even know what marriage was, did you? John: No, I didn't.  When she began to teach me, she said, "You're John, I, Donna, we're married."  And the way I learned to talk, Bob, in those early days, I'd watch people's lips move.  I wasn't blind then.  I've only been blind about eight months, but I would watch people's lips move and put the sound with it.  I said, "Marry?  Marry?" and she said, "Oh, okay, you forgot that.  That means you belong to me, and I belong to you."  I looked at her, I'd say, "You my Donna?"  She said, "Yes."  That's what I call her ever since – "My Donna." It was so easy to love her.  She loved me so good.  I'd tell people she taught me everything I know – every woman dream come true.  Her husband forget it all and she get to teach him. [laughter] Everything I know is what my wife taught me.  But I tell everybody she taught me reading, writing, and kissing, and my favorite subject kissing, that's my favorite one. Dennis: So that didn't change? John: No, that didn't.  I didn't – I had a hard time finding her lips, but I kissed until I find them, that's what I do. [laughter]  Dennis: Donna, what kind of student was he? Donna: He worked hard, he really did.  He's a pretty good student.  Sometimes when he's done, he's done, you know?  Sometimes he'd tell me, he said, "Remember, I'm the husband." Dennis: Oh, so he did find out what that meant? Donna: Oh, yes, it didn't take him long to have that man thing, I guess. Bob: It's one thing to take your husband to the hospital and maybe he comes home with a physical disability, and now life is going to have to change because he has to use a walker, or he's got to be in a wheelchair, or he's got something physically that's an issue, but to have a husband come home – I had a friend describe your husband's condition by saying, "It's like a computer that had the hard disk completely erased.  There is no data left there."  To have that be the situation and to be a wife and go, "This is the man I went to Bible school with and raised my kids, and he can't remember any of it.  Our shared history is gone." That had to be – I can't even imagine the discouragement that you must have felt. Donna: It was very discouraging, and that's why I kept trying to do those tricks, trying to think, "Okay, he's got to remember something," you know?  It was hard.  It was almost like I had four boys instead of three. Dennis: Was there anything to prepare you for the kind of commitment this was going to take?  I mean, marriage is a covenant, but your commitment was challenged to the core, wasn't it? Donna: Yes, sir, it sure was.  I thank the Lord.  I think the main reason was because I had a good home church when I grew up, and I went to church faithfully, my parents loved each other, and I was always taught that when you're married, you're married for life.  And when you say "For better for worse, in sickness and health," you're in for the long haul, you know?  And so I never even thought about divorce – that never even crossed my mind.  In a way, I guess I just busied myself into fixing the problem, you know?  Okay, we've got a problem here.  We need to start working on it, and, Lord, you've just got to help give me wisdom to know – because, also, all the decisions that he made as the husband now were put on me as far as my children and how many doctors to go to and who to go to and who not to go to, and I always tell ladies now, I say, "Listen, you need to thank the Lord for your husband's leadership." I mean, I was always thankful for my husband to make the decisions and so forth, but when I had to take that role, it was just something that made me appreciate the position that God has given me to be under my husband so that he could make those decisions for me.  And so I'm just very thankful that I was taught those things, and God's just really helped me through these things. Dennis: How old were those children at the time? Donna: My youngest was 10, the next one was, like, 17, and my other one was, like, 22, I think. Dennis: Wow, there was a lot going on in your life just raising them. Donna: Yes, sir. Dennis: Now, John, I want you to know we haven't forgotten you. John: Okay. Dennis: We know you're here, but we have to get a little bit of the drama that's taking place. John: Yes. Dennis: You came out of the hospital and arrived back home, and you were in a state of – was it almost like paralysis?  Or were you just – you couldn't walk, you couldn't talk.  You could see – you had eyesight, right? John: Yes, uh-huh. Dennis: You could hear. John: Yes. Dennis: But you didn't know how to eat? John: No, and I didn't know what words were.  That's why I couldn't read or write, and my Donna taught me phonics, finally, and my 10-year-old son would come home from school, sit on the couch and help Daddy learn to read.  And my oldest son was in college, the other just finishing high school, been going college, but my family just so good to me, people were just so good.  My church was so – I remember, even, when she brought me home from hospital that one time, and they opened the door of car, my dog, golden retriever, came over put head in lap, and I said, "Even my dog loved me."  It wasn't really a bad world to wake up to, because everybody in it loved me.  And, you know, my first memories of anything about life was my Donna rubbing my hand, telling me, "I love you, it will be all right, everything will be all right," and … Dennis: You knew what those words meant? John: In some way I did.  She would have to been sort of point out to me what, like, words "good" and "bad" meant and it's hard to really explain.  It was just a blank, and so she would begin to do – teach me these different things, and then as I began to pick up concepts is what it was, and the way I picked up on reading, I couldn't figure out what letters on books – how are they reading.  Until one day she got me dressed for church and set me in the living room and on the coffee table was a kindergarten book she going to teach that morning Sunday school and big pictures, Bible story, and what I did, Dennis, I would listen to the Bible every day on tape, because I couldn't read, and I would listen to two tapes a day, three hours, and I remember when she told me what the Bible was – see, I didn't know what I was, either?  I said, "What am I?"  She said, "You a preacher."  I said, "What a preacher is?"  And she said, "Well, that's somebody tell others what God what them know."  I said, "Wow, I couldn't be thing better that.  You reckon Lord let me keep doing it?"  And I began to learn concepts, and when I saw those pictures and the big words underneath it, "Moses" and "Red Sea," then I knew that was what I'd been listening to in Bible, and I hollered, "Donna, I can read, I can read."  Then I knew what words were, and so that's how I began learning. Dennis: Yeah, how did you know who God was? John: You know, I knew I knew God but I didn't know how I knew God and, matter of fact, in the hospital, one of my doctors said this – I would mumble things, because I knew I supposed to say things, but I didn't know how to.  So my doctor said the only word we could make out was the word "God," and it was, like, Dennis, I forgot everybody and everything but God. But I didn't know how I knew Him until through the Bible listening.  Of course, my family telling me, "You're a Christian," but I didn't know what that was, and, you know, my church told me, and they loved me, and so forth, but it was a process of me learning and listening to the Bible and what gave me the great assurance was Romans, chapter 8, where he says, "His spirit bear witness with our spirit that we're children of God."  And I'd gotten a little worried.  You know, it was – when I'd listen to the Bible, Judas Iscariot scared me, because I thought, "Here a preacher that didn't really know or love the Lord."  So I thought "Just because I preacher doesn't mean I really know the Lord and just because people tell me," but when I listened to that verse, it was like God said, "John, it my job tell you you're my child.  That's my spirit witnessing and after that I never had doubt after that I had that assurance in my heart from this word.  That's how I know you, God, but I can't remember praying a prayer. I wrote it in my Bible as a teenage boy, and I've still got that, and some people, Dennis, just put a date.  I wrote a whole page, and I treasure that.  God knew I'd lose it all one day, and I had a whole page.  I was brought up in a lost home.  My dad and stepdad had died before my illness, so I don't have any memory of them, but my mother was still alive.  She with the Lord now, and Mama told me that I from an alcoholic home.  She said, "John, I'm glad you forgot your childhood, it was real rough," but she said I led my dad to the Lord before he had died, my stepdad, and I led her to the Lord.  You know, I told my family, "Don't tell me everything, just what I need to know," because you don't really want to know everything sometime," so when I went to Mama's funeral, my aunt came up and said, "John, you used to send your mom a rose every year for she was sober after she got saved."  And I said, "Stella, what would this be?"  She said, "It would be 12."  And so I bought 12 roses and put there, and my aunt and I knew what it was.  And so the Lord has been good to help me, and I so glad Mama got to – she'd one day telling me about childhood.  I said, "Boy, Mama, I didn't know I was such a good boy."  She said, "Remember, I just tell the half of it." [laughter]  Bob: Well, we've been listening today to part 1 of an incredible story as we have talked to John and Donna Bishop about what the Lord took them through.  This is more than a decade ago, now, Dennis, and, you know, all of us, as we shared our vows with one another getting married, we pledged for better, for worse, in sickness and in health, and we may have stopped to think, "Well, how bad can it be?" or "How sick can somebody get?"  Who could imagine a scenario like this, like what Donna faced?  It's remarkable. Dennis: It really is, Bob, and I just want to let our listeners in on a little secret – don't miss the rest of the story – just the love story that we've heard of Donna Bishop hanging in there with her husband.  I know we're talking to some spouses right now who are hanging in there with the person they pledged through sickness and in health, for better, for worse, and right now it's sickness, and it's worse. You needed to hear the story to give you courage, and I just want to read you Paul's great writings about what love is, because the world cheapens what love is, and the Bible speaks so clearly.  I'm not going to read all of it, but 1 Corinthians 13, verse 4, "Love is patient, love is kind.  It's not jealous, does not brag, and is not arrogant."  Verse 7 – "It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things" – now, listen to these last three words – "endures all things."   The only way you get that kind of love is by knowing the God – the God who redeemed John and Donna Bishop and who put that kind of love in their hearts for one another. Bob: And that's the – as they used to say, "That's the genuine article."  Dennis, right after we had finished talking with the Bishops, I asked if I could get a couple of copies of the CD of the interview, because I meet with a group of guys on Wednesday night, and I wanted them to hear the conversation, and those guys came back the following Wednesday, and they said, "Can we get more copies of that CD?  We've got friends we want to send it to.  There are people who need to hear this powerful story." And we do have CDs of our conversation with John and Donna available in our FamilyLife Resource Center.  If you are interested in getting a copy or multiple copies to share with friends, go to our website, FamilyLife.com.  You can click on where it says, "Today's Broadcast," on the right side of the home page, and that will take you to a part of the site where there is more information about how to order the CD of this conversation and how you can get multiple copies, if you'd like. Again, the website if FamilyLife.com, and you click on the right side of the home page where you see "Today's Broadcast," or just call us at 1-800-FLTODAY, 1-800-358-6329, and someone on our team will let you know how you can get a copy of the CD sent to you. You know, when you pull back a story like this, and you hear from a couple like John and Donna, you know that the storm that they faced, they endured, and they stayed strong, because they had spent years building a foundation in their relationship that kept them pressed close to God and close to one another. Dennis: That's right. Bob: I know when you and Barbara sat down and began working on the devotional book for couples, "Moments With You," your hope was that couples all across the country would establish a regular discipline of building their relationship with God and with one another by spending time together looking at His Word, considering the dynamics of a marriage relationship and then praying together each day for their marriage and for their family. And there have been thousands of folks who have contacted us and asked for a copy of this devotional book, "Moments With You."  This week we're making it available to our listeners who contact us to make a donation of any amount for the ministry of FamilyLife Today.  If you go online at FamilyLife.com, or if you call 1-800-FLTODAY, and you make a donation of any amount, we want you to feel free to request a copy of the hardback book, the 365-day devotional for couples called "Moments With You." Now, if you're making your donation online, when you come to the keycode box on the donation form, just type the word "You" – y-o-u.  And we'll know to send a copy of the book your way.  Or call 1-800-FLTODAY, that's 1-800-358-6329, make a donation of any amount over the phone and just request a copy of the devotional guide for couples, "Moments With You."  We're happy to send it to you.  We trust that you can use it to begin a regular habit in your marriage of coming together each day, taking a few minutes to read the Scriptures and to pray together, and we trust that God will use this tool in your life. And we appreciate your financial support for the ministry of FamilyLife Today as well.  Thanks for partnering with us. Now, we want to invite you back tomorrow.  We're going to begin to look carefully at what it took for John and Donna Bishop to rebuild their life and their marriage together after John's memory had been completely erased.  I hope you can join us for that. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas – help for today; hope for tomorrow.   ________________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com                 

Christian Alliance For Orphans Interviews (Part 1) - Bishop Aaron BlakeChristian Alliance For Orphans Interviews (Part 2) - Diana PrykhodkoChristian Alliance For Orphans Interviews (Part 3) - Bishop W.C. MartinFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. The Miracle from Possum Trot Guest:                         W. C. MartinFrom the series:       The Miracle from Possum Trot (Day 1 of 1)  Bob: When the bishop at Bennett Chapel Baptist Church in Possum Trot, Texas, W.C. Martin and his wife Donna, decided they were going to adopt some children from the foster care system, they had no idea what was about to happen in their little town. W.C.: We don't have any Ph.D. folks at our church that can map out this and show you how to do that. We don't have that. But what we do have was just pure love that we can give a child. We just do the Word—like you just said, being a doer of the Word. This ain't about having a meeting to see if we want to do this. We just did the Word and gave God the GLORY for doing it! [Applause] Bob: This is a special edition of FamilyLife Today for Friday, November 25th. This program was recorded in front of a live studio audience. You'll hear our conversation today with W.C. Martin, and hear how revival almost broke out in the middle of the interview. Stay with us.  1:00 [Recorded Message] And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. Once again, we have got a wonderful live studio audience with us. We are here at the Christian Alliance for Orphans Summit IX! [Applause] Yes! [Laughter] And as I was thinking about what we're going to talk about today, I was thinking about one of your favorite quotes from Billy Graham. Do you know the quote I'm talking about? Dennis: I do. He said: “Courage is contagious. When one man takes a stand, the spines of others are stiffened.” We're going to hear a story today about a man and his wife who took a courageous stand on behalf of the orphan, and took God at His Word. I was reminded of this—a lot of Christians live their entire Christian faith out and never step out and never take this verse and the promise of what it means.  2:00 Listen to this—Ephesians, Chapter 3, verse 20: “Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly than all we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations forever and ever. Amen.” I think one of the great challenges for us, in this day, is looking around at a culture that has a target-rich environment for us to be salt and light in this world but, especially, as we address the needs of orphans. Taking on the issue of foster care and adoption, we need to be men and women, young men and women, boys and girls of faith, who take God at His Word and expect great things from Him. Bob: We're going to meet somebody today who caused the spines of others to stiffen by the courageous step he took. It's a story that has been told on Oprah, and the Today Show, and just about everywhere— 3:00 —not just here in the United States—but internationally. We want you to join us and welcome to the stage Bishop W.C. Martin. Would you welcome him? [Applause] Dennis: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, Bishop. You and your wife Donna have been married for 35 years.  W.C.: Yes. Dennis: You have six children, four of whom are adopted. Apart from that being the claim to your fame—I know that's number one, there, and your love for Christ—you are the bishop of Bennett Chapel in Possum Trot, Texas. W.C.: On the other side of Coonville. Bob: Known as what?—South Coonville? W.C.: On the other side of Coonville. [Laughter] Dennis: This goes back to 1996. Take us back to how this all started in Possum Trot. W.C.: Well, my wife's mother passed.  4:00 She had one of those community-type mothers—everybody coming to her house, and eat, and play, and everything. She had 18 brothers and sisters of them. Bob: Eighteen. W.C.: Yes, 18. On the passing of her mother, she said one morning, “Lord, if You can't take this burden from the loss of my mother, just let me die.” The Lord just spoke and said, “Give back.” God told us to adopt—foster and adopt. The whole thing started right there. We went to class. We had to take 12 weeks of Pride classes in Texas. Dennis: Let me just stop you for a second, though. This starts a lot of times—adoption—with our wives speaking into our hearts. W.C.: Yes. Dennis: A lot of us, as men, kind of get dragged into this. You had some fears.  W.C.: I sure did.  Dennis: You had some concerns. W.C.: I sure did; because she had kind of told me some other things and didn't follow through with it; you know? Bob: Ahhh. [Laughter] 5:00 W.C.: I said, “Here goes another one of them.” [Laughter] Dennis: “Can this marriage be saved?” I understand! [Laughter] W.C.: I said, “Here goes another one of them hair-brained ideas you're coming up with!” [Laughter] Dennis: I just want to remind you this is live radio, and Donna will be listening. W.C.: Oh! [Laughter] Bob: I just want to find out from the audience: “How many of you had husbands who said, ‘Here goes another one of her hair-brained ideas'?” Raise your hand. There are a lot of hands up here; yes!  W.C.: Well, good thing I'm not the only little boy on the block! [Laughter] Dennis: So what eventually won you over? W.C.: Well, I felt the calling of God. I felt, within myself, that this was what God wanted us to do—not even knowing what the outcome was going to be / not even knowing anything about this because I always thought that people—I didn't even know that there was such a thing as adoption, because I thought people always took care of their children. That's all I ever knew. I didn't think anything else, you know; because in places like Possum Trot, there was always a Grandmamma Yelma, or Aunt Pookanell, or somebody, when Mama died, you came in. [Laughter] 6:00 That's what I always thought; you know? I never knew anything different. So, that started it. What happened was—when we adopted our first little boy / little girl, named Mercedes, who had been in nine homes for one year. They didn't want us to have those children, because they figured that we were new in the business and new in the game—we could not deal with Mercedes and Tyler because they had such a bad record. But, then again, we showed them that we had Somebody on our side that they didn't know anything about. [Laughter and cheering] Don't start me preaching up here now; I don't want to do that! [Laughter] Dennis: We know it's going to happen! [Laughter] Mercedes was five and her brother was— W.C.: Three. Dennis: —three. Where had they been? Why were they in the foster care system? W.C.: Because their mother had gotten killed in Dallas, Texas, in a bad drug deal.  7:00 As a result of it, Mercedes had to end up being the mother and the father for Tyler. She ended up just developing this thing about stealing and lying. She could con a con artist herself; you know?—until— Dennis: Yes. W.C.: —until she met me. [Laughter] Dennis: Yes. This is what I want our audience to know—not that he can take over a liar—[Laughter]—but I want the audience to know that for all these drug busts we see on TV / the crime—there are kids involved. W.C.: There surely are. Dennis: They're going someplace. W.C.: Yes. Dennis: I know a family that, since they've been here at this event, in the past 48 hours, got a phone call at 1:15 a.m. to take care of five kids who had just been delivered to the sheriff's office, or the police station, and were sleeping on the floor because they had nowhere to go—all as a result of crime. W.C.: Yes. 8:00 Dennis: So we kind of make it out there; but when you go near the foster care system, you're going to find it's up-close and personal. Bob: I just want to know: “When you brought Mercedes and her little brother into your house, was it hard for a while?” W.C.: I think it was harder on them because Mercedes was used to just going from place to place. Nine homes in one year is a lot of places. Bob: Oh, yes. W.C.: She didn't trust nobody. That was the big problem Mercedes had—she trusted nobody—because she didn't know what trust was all about. She didn't know how to trust / she didn't know the first thing about trust. What we had to do was to win Mercedes and Tyler over. I figured that if we got Mercedes, Tyler was going to do whatever Mercedes said—that was the situation. It was a bad, bad situation; because she had experienced so much at a young age. Bob: How long did it take, and what did you do to win Mercedes over? W.C.: Showed them a lot of love— 9:00 —just loved them out of what they were in to show them that that was never God's will for them to have a life like that and that we are here. I told her—I said: “Mercedes, look. This is the last train to Georgia. You are not going nowhere. You might as well say, ‘This is it.'” And that was it. Dennis: You decided to adopt that quickly? W.C.: The way the state set it up—is that we had to foster for six months, with the intention of adoption after six months was up. Bob: And when you did this, word spread around Possum Trot what the bishop and his wife were doing; didn't it? W.C.: Yes; it spread it. By the same token, I'd been the person over our congregation. People now began to understand what adoption was really all about, not knowing in the beginning. I looked up every Scripture that I could find in the Bible. I learned that adoption was a God-thing, in the beginning. You know, if you look back—there was Moses was adopted / Esther was adopted.  10:00 A lot of people differ with me on this, but Jesus was an adopted child. I know there are other ways you can look at it, but He was an adopted child. [Applause] Dennis: Yes; and just to illustrate here—one of my favorite questions to ask an audience is: “How many of you, in this audience of almost 2,500 people, are adopted?” Hold your hands up. W.C.: Everybody! [Laughter] Dennis: Well, those of you who didn't hold your hands up, would you read Ephesians, Chapter 1: [Laughter] “…whom He predestined to become His sons”—and daughters—“through adoption.” W.C.: That's right. Dennis: The reason I think God calls us, as believers, to go near the orphan and to care for orphans is—it is God's heart / and it had better be, because we were lost and now we've been found. Bob: Now, you've got him preaching! See how this works?—back and forth! [Laughter]  Dennis: Yes. So what happened in your church? 11:00 W.C.: Well, after I got up and explained to the church what was going on, we started having families after families come and say, “I would like to do this, but I don't want…”—we had to drive 120 miles, round-trip, to take what they call Pride classes, that was a 12-week course. I had enough families—I went to the state and asked them, “Would they be willing to come to our church and teach the classes?”  Well, the lady said, “If you could go and find me eight families,” which they knew that was something that was just impossible to do—so they thought—but you know, God had another plan for it. What happened was—when I went and got the families, I carried a list back and laid it before her. When she unfolded the paper, I had 23 families on that list. [Laughter and cheering] Dennis: So what happened? She came? W.C.: She did! [Laughter] I don't know how many of you in here are case workers or ever did that before, but the work load that a case worker has to do is enormous!—  12:00 —you know, doing the home studies and doing the background history checks. That's a lot of work for anyone to do—and to say that she got 23 families now—that she's got to do all that work for. [Laughter] Dennis: At the time you started this, with 23 families—how many attended your church?  W.C.: We probably had about 85 families. Dennis: So a fourth of your church, back then, stepped up to care for foster care kids. W.C.: They stepped up, not having anything—because we didn't know / we didn't have a clue as to what was all involved. I did not know that there were children who had their own agenda and own ideas about where they were. I didn't know that they steal. I didn't know that they lie. I didn't know that they do stuff like that. I didn't have a clue about that.  Dennis: Right. W.C.: But they sent me to school, as well as gave me a Doctor's degree in child psychology! [Laughter] But by the same token, what happened—God had already taught us patience.  13:00 My oldest son—my biological son—is 29 years old. He was born with severe brain damage. So then, my brother thought that I had lost my mind. Bob: I am guessing Possum Trot is not an affluent community. W.C.: It's not. It's not at all, because it's a very poor community. One family that I have, right now: She had adopted five little girls / one of them was her child—she adopted five. Then, her sister died—she had got three. Then, her sister's husband died. Then, I went to the state because I did not want to see those children go back into the system in which they were fixing to come. I went to them and asked them, “What could we do to keep those children in the community?”  This family brought those children into their home. What she did—she raised 11 children in a trailer house. [Audience gasp] Bob: Wow. Dennis: You just raised an issue that I want our listening audience to be aware of. The church needs to realize the state is not the enemy when it comes to foster care. [Applause]  14:00 They really are—the state really is waiting, I think, for the church to come to them and to say: “We want to cooperate. We want to help you”; because the state doesn't know what to do with these children. They don't have homes for them to go into. They need someone to step up, and step forward, and say, “Give us—give us your children.” W.C.: Yes; that's right. That's right. See, that's what we did. We had a rough time in the beginning, because the school didn't know what to do about the children. But for the most part—I could say it like this: “If God is for you, who can be against you?” [Applause] It doesn't matter!  Dennis: Right. W.C.: It does not matter what goes on. If God calls you to this particular ministry, you are going to catch some slack, and you are going to catch some problems; but, ultimately, I can say you shall be victorious over everything that what they say:  15:00 “It can't be,”— with God, it can be; because the Scripture said, “I can do all things through Christ Jesus who strengthens me.” Bob: Now, you got him to preaching. See how this works? [Laughter] Dennis: Well, there's a reason why the school system felt the stress of what happened at Bennett Chapel. W.C.: Yes. Dennis: Share with the audience how many children have been adopted into families of your church. W.C.: We have, at this time, 76 children that have been adopted. [Applause and cheering] Bob: How has that changed Possum Trot? W.C.: It changed our hearts and opened our hearts up to let us know that God created it all. It's not so much what we're doing for ourselves—but what we're doing for others—because that's what Jesus did. Dennis: Right. W.C.: He went out of His way to show us that He loved us. What He wants us to do is follow that same trend and go all out of our way.  16:00 Adoption is a great thing. It's one of the greatest things that we ever can do, because we are only following what God has already started by adopting us. Back then, that was a part of the plan of salvation—was adoption. That's what we have to do, now. Everybody can't do it, but everybody can be a part of what God is doing in that arena of adoption. [Applause] Dennis: We sometimes think that we're doing the orphan a favor by going near and doing the noble thing of being a foster care parent or perhaps adopting. The orphan is certainly the recipient of love, but we don't realize how much we need the orphan to save us from toxic self-absorption. Bob: Yes. Dennis: Haven't you found that in your own life? W.C.: Yes, yes, yes—because Mercedes called my wife, the other day—she said: “Mamma, I don't know where I would be, because of the way my life was going, if it had not been for what you and Dad have done for me.  17:00 “I don't know how my life would have turned out.” Mercedes was a child that—she could steal you blind, tell the same lie a thousand times—never change her facial expression / never change one word of it—but she couldn't even count to ten. My wife used to spend hours, every day, putting pennies on the table to teach Mercedes. She taught her how to count to ten. Then, she taught her how to count to twenty, and just went on up. It ended up—Mercedes was an honor roll student in her class.  You know, God is showing us that these children have purpose in their life. They are just not—somebody—no; we are not doing them a favor, but I think they're doing us a favor; because what they are doing—they are teaching us some things about love that we don't even know. They are teaching us some God-kind of love—not just we are trying to love somebody—but they're teaching us something because those children really taught me what true love and pure love was all about— 18:00 —because we were reaching out, and bringing them in, and showing them a light that we were supposed to have been doing all the time.  This is something that every church on this earth needs to reach up and wake up: “If they can do it in Possum Trot, on the other side of Coonville—and they don't have no streetlights, don't have no street signs, don't have no hotels and all that stuff—we ought to be able to do it in our church.” Thank You, Jesus! [Applause, cheering, laughter] Dennis: I would imagine, right now, that every person, who is listening to this broadcast, goes to church. What is there unclear about the statement you just made? Go to your pastor, go to your elder board / your deacon board—whatever the structure is—and say: “Let's do something. Let's be doers of the Word, and be those who are about caring for the orphan.” W.C.: Yes; yes. 19:00 Bob: But don't just take it to the elders and deacons and say, “Here, you guys do something,”— Dennis: Oh, exactly, Bob. Bob: —because they have enough to do. You need to go and say, “We're here—ready to do whatever we can do to help this be a part of the culture of our church.” Dennis: And it's going to cost you.  Bob: Yes. Dennis: It's going to cost you 12 weeks of training, or whatever it is in your state.  W.C.: Yes; yes. Dennis: You're going to see a lot of red tape and a lot of system; but it's like: “If that's all the cause means to you and you're not willing to endure some things like that, then find something that grabs your heart.” W.C.: We don't have any Ph.D. folks at our church that can map out this and show you how to do that—we don't have that. But what we do have was just pure love that we can give a child. We just do the Word—like you just said—being a doer of the Word. This isn't about having a meeting to see if we want to do this. We just did the Word and gave God the GLORY for doing it! [Applause] 20:00 Dennis: And all of God's people said: Audience: Amen! [Laughter] Dennis: We're going to close the broadcast with a question; because I would like to know, “Out of everything you've done in all of your life, what is the most courageous thing you have ever done?” W.C.: I believe the most courageous thing that I've done, first of all, personally, was to accept Christ as my Savior. [Applause] That was number one.  And number two—I think that what I've done was to share me with so many children, all across this country. I'll continue to do that as long as God lets these legs move and lets this voice talk. I'm going to continue to let the world know that the church—the leaders / the pastor—we have a duty to perform before God. Don't let this go down as, “God got an indictment against the church for what He told us to do and we refused to do it.” That's a bad thing!  21:00 Let us, at this point, get involved / make a difference. Tell the pastor, “Look, we got to do this.” We, as pastors, are just like a mailman—we didn't write the letter, but we've got to deliver the letter. So what I'm saying to you: “Tell your people about adoption. If you can't do it, help them out to do it. Just do something!” [Applause] Dennis: Well, I want to thank you for being a courageous man— W.C.: God bless you. Dennis: —and for being a man who believes the God who is able to do exceedingly abundantly beyond— Dennis and W.C.: —all we can ever ask or think. Dennis: To Him be the glory for this generation and all generations. Bob: Would you guys thank Bishop Martin for joining us here? [Applause] W.C.: God bless you.   [Studio] Bob: Well, it's fun to listen back to our interview with Bishop W.C. Martin.  22:00 This took place back in 2013 at the Christian Alliance for Orphans Summit—a great event that is held annually in May. In fact, May 4th and 5th of 2017, the Summit will take place at Brentwood Baptist Church in Nashville, Tennessee. There's a good line-up on-hand. Ann Voskamp is going to be at the Summit this year / Andrew Peterson will be there. Of course, we'll be there, again, doing interviews for FamilyLife Today.  If you have a heart for orphan ministry—or for your church / if you're involved in orphan ministry—plan to join us at the Summit, May 4th and 5th, 2017, in Nashville, Tennessee. If you need more information about the Summit, go to our website, which is FamilyLifeToday.com. There's a link there that can get you all the information you need about next year's event. 23:00 Now, as the Christmas season is officially here—now that Thanksgiving is over—as you head toward the last few weeks of the year, I know some of you are beginning to think about yearend contributions to ministries, like FamilyLife Today. You need to know that all of the programs you hear on Christian radio look to this time of year as a significant time. What happens in the next few weeks really determines a lot about what our ministries will be like in 2017.  So I want to encourage you, first of all, as you think about yearend contributions, make sure that your local church is in first place in your giving. We believe that the local church ought to be your giving priority. Then, if there are programs on this station that have had an impact in your life this year, consider giving a yearend gift to one of those programs. If FamilyLife Today is one of those programs, we hope you'll consider a yearend contribution to this ministry as well. As I said, your financial support now determines a lot about what we can do in the months ahead.  24:00 We hope you'll prayerfully consider how you might support the programs on Christian radio that have ministered to you during the year 2016. And we hope you have a great weekend. I hope you and your family are able to worship together this weekend, and I hope you can join us back on Monday. We're going to talk about how we keep Jesus at the center of our holiday celebration by remembering who He is and what Christmas is really all about. Barbara Rainey will be with us. I hope you can join us as well. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

Messy Grace (Part 1) - Kaleb KaltenbachMessy Grace (Part 2) - Kaleb KaltenbachMessy Grace (Part 3) - Kaleb KaltenbachFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Loving My Gay Parents Guest:                         Caleb Kaltenbach                            From the series:       Messy Grace (Day 1 of 3)  Bob: Caleb Kaltenbach's parents divorced when he was young. His mom came out as a lesbian; his dad came out as a gay man. That gave Caleb a unique perspective on life.  Caleb: I remember marching in a Gay Pride parade one time and seeing all these—I'll use quotations, “Christians”—holding up signs, saying, “God hates you!” I remember that so vividly, almost as if it happened yesterday. I remember looking at my mom, looking at her in the eye, and saying, “Mom, why are they acting like this?” I was about nine or ten—somewhere around there. She looked at me and she said, “Well, Caleb, they're Christians; and Christians hate gay people.”  Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, July 2nd. Our host is Dennis Rainey; I'm Bob Lepine. Caleb Kaltenbach grew up in what I think we'd all agree was a somewhat messy family situation. He had to learn, eventually, how to apply what he calls “messy grace.” Stay with us.  1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Monday edition. You know, every family is messy at some level; right? But there are— Dennis: No doubt. I was just withholding the answer there because— Bob: It's self-evident; isn't it? Dennis: Wow! I mean, you get six children, two imperfect parents; I mean, what are you going to get? You're going to get some—some messiness. This is where I think the Bible has all kinds of relevance, because it's about messy people. It's about imperfect people / imperfect stories and how God, in His sovereign majesty, works out a story that honors Him.  Bob: Yes; I love what Matt Chandler says—  2:00 —he says, “It's okay not to be okay; it's just not okay to stay there.” [Laughter] That's what the story of redemption's all about! Dennis: Well, we have a guest with us today who has quite a story. Now, I just want you to know—as a listener, I don't know what you're doing; but set it aside—because what you're going to hear is going to be riveting—I am confident of that. He has written a book called Messy Grace, and it is subtitled: How a Pastor with Gay Parents Learned to Love Others Without Sacrificing Conviction. Now, that is a mouthful! Bob: Yes. Dennis: We have with us Caleb Kaltenbach. Welcome to the broadcast. Caleb: It's great to be here. Thank you for having me. Dennis: Caleb, this lead line over the title of your book, How a Pastor with Gay Parents Learned to Love Others—wow! Take us back to the home you grew up in. I mean, I've heard a lot of stories; but I'm not sure I've heard one about a pastor who came from that kind of background. 3:00 Caleb: I was raised in Columbia, Missouri, and Kansas City—actually, I started out in Columbia. Both my parents were professors at the University of Missouri-Columbia and at local schools there—taught subjects like philosophy, law, rhetoric, and English literature. When I was two, they got a divorce; and both of them entered into same-sex relationships.  My mom went into a 22-year-long monogamous relationship with her partner, Vera—she was a psychologist. Now, my dad on the other hand—he had several different relationships. He never had one relationship that lasted. I actually—I didn't even know about my dad until I got to be college-age—maybe just graduated from college—but I kind of always had my suspicions; I don't know. But I was raised by three gay parents.  Bob: This is at a time that is unlike today, when these relationships tended to be more closeted. Were your parents “out” about their sexual preference? Caleb: My dad was in the closet. My mom and her partner, as I said—they did go to Kansas City.  4:00 They were very loud and proud, and very out. They were on the board of directors for the Kansas City chapter of GLAD. They were activists. They took me with them to Gay Pride parades, and bars, and clubs when I was preschool age/elementary age. I remember going with them to activist events. I remember marching in a Gay Pride parade one time and seeing all these—I'll use quotations, “Christians”—holding up signs, saying, “God hates you!” If that wasn't offensive enough, they were spraying people with water and urine at one of the particular parades. Dennis: Oh!  Bob: Oh! Caleb: I remember that so vividly, almost as if it happened yesterday. I remember just, right now to this day, I remember looking at my mom, looking at her in the eye, and saying, “Mom, why are they acting like this?” I was about nine or ten—somewhere around there. She looked at me and she said, “Well, Caleb, they're Christians; and Christians hate gay people.”   That stuck with me. My whole childhood, I was raised to believe that.  5:00 I saw that when AIDS was developing in America and spreading, and we were learning more about it. Many of my mom's friends contracted it. I remember one man, named Louis, who was a young man—his family was Christian. They already didn't accept him, because he was in a same-sex relationship. When he got AIDS, they really didn't want to have anything to do with him. We went and visited him in a hospital one time. Dennis: Yes; you describe a scene in your book that is pretty— Caleb: Right. Dennis: —pretty amazing.  Caleb: Yes; and the most disturbing thing was—obviously, it's disturbing to see somebody die from AIDS, if you've ever seen that—but seeing his family being so nonchalant, while they were reading their Bibles, lined up against the wall, like they were waiting for a firing squad to come get them. That, to me, was unforgivable at that time. Dennis: They were not next to his bed— Caleb: No. Dennis: —holding his hand, speaking love to him. They were kind of huddled together in another section of the room, not caring for him at all. Caleb: No; and they wouldn't even talk to us. I remember my mom looked at me and she said, “Hey, Christians hate gay people.” 6:00 Bob: So you grew up with that as your view of Christians and Christianity. At the same time, you're going to elementary school. You had to be the only kid in your school who had two moms.  Caleb: Oh, I didn't tell anybody that I had two moms—I didn't tell anybody. Even as a young kid, I wondered about my dad; but I didn't tell anybody because, even though, at that age, I didn't think there was anything wrong about that relationship—at the same time, I knew that I was different. I did not want to get made fun of. Bob: So you just would tell folks you lived with your mom, and your mom and dad were divorced; and that was it? Caleb: And I would go back and forth; absolutely. Dennis: Was it 50-50? Caleb: No; I spent most of the time with my dad. Dennis: I've been looking forward to talking with you; because I'm seeing children today grow up in homes, where they have two same-sex parents. I'm just wondering: “What's happening in the life of that child? What's that child thinking/feeling?” What was going on in your life, emotionally, if you can think back and articulate kind of what you were thinking and feeling? Caleb: I remember Vera, my mother's partner.  7:00 We did not get along at all, almost from Day One, when I was a little kid. There was a real jealousy/competition factor with her and my mother. I remember learning, at a very young age, that Vera really hated men. Even though I was a little boy, I was still a man—representative of that.  If I had time to take you through her past / my mom and dad's past, you would totally understand where they would get that hatred from. I even understand it today. I don't think that's the right response, but I understand how that could be a response. This is where I think parenting is so incredibly important on two levels. Number one, parents have got to learn that they have to deal with their issues; because whatever their burdens are, when they don't deal with them and seek healing from them, they pass them onto their kids. Their kids now have to bear the burdens that their parents do.  But also, our kids—and I'm very mindful of this with my own kids— 8:00 —are always watching me: and how I handle stressful situations and how I handle life—because they model their achievement of emotional balance through watching me and their mother.  We want to do that in a Christ-like way so, when they see that life is difficult / that life is tough, they see us turning to God. They don't see us raging, or ignoring them, or doing things like that, or being abusive. Dennis: So back to the question, Caleb. As a little boy, growing up—obviously, you said you spent most of your time with your dad. Caleb: Yes. Dennis: Were you ashamed that you had two mommies? Caleb: I wasn't ashamed; I did not want to be made fun of. They never came together to any events. I knew that there was something wrong. What was really ironic was, even if you were to look at Vera and my mother's relationship, Vera took on the role of the man in the relationship. Then my mom took on the role of the woman. Even within their relationship, they still mirrored the image that the Creator set up in the covenant of marriage. Even though it was not the right image, it's always been fascinating that, even within that, we still mirror what God originally set up. Does that make sense? 9:00 Dennis: Yes. Bob: Your dad, you said, was a bachelor.  Caleb: Yes. Bob: He's who you spent most of your time with. At what age did you start to become aware of the fact: “Hey, my family's different; I've got two moms.” You're starting to understand human sexuality for yourself at—I guess, 10, 11, or 12 years old—whatever age it was. When did you start to put the pieces together that the family you were in was unusual? Caleb: When I was in elementary school, because I would see everybody else talk about their parents and so on and so forth. I started watching my dad. I knew that he did not have a girlfriend. I knew that he spent time around one person in particular. He had different people over, and then I wouldn't see them for a while. There was an ebb and flow that just was not ever consistent—there was hardly any consistency. By the time I got to high school, my worldview was very whacked-out. I mean, I did not have a Christian worldview, obviously. Bob: But when you grow up in that situation and that's your normal, a lot of young people just think: “This is normal.  10:00 “It may not be the same as everybody else's, but my situation is not a wrong situation.” Caleb: Yes; but the thing is that there's no standard then. The Bible provides a standard in holy living—sanctification—and how we should live our lives in every aspect / in every domain of our life. Dennis: And you didn't have that. Caleb: No; I didn't have that. My worldview had no standard; it had no basis. It was always shifting. It was like culture—culture is always changing, because people always change; because there's no focal point. When you follow Jesus, He's the focal point; He's the standard; He's by which you measure everything and make your decisions. Bob: Did you have any sexual ethic?—any personal sexual ethic? Caleb: No; I didn't. I mean, I never had premarital sex or anything like that. I never got into anything destructive; but I was of the mindset that anything you wanted to do, as long as it didn't hurt anybody, was okay. You know, more of a Modern Family-type mindset, I guess you would say. Bob: Right. So what your mom and dad had chosen to do— 11:00 —you looked at that and said: “That's their choice,” or “That's who they are. They're just being true to who they are.” Caleb: “That's good for them.”  I've never experienced same-sex attraction. My mom would always ask me a lot, “Well, it is okay, Caleb; it is okay.” Even as a young kid, I would say: “I've always liked girls. I'm sorry; I don't…” Some of the times, I felt like my mom was trying to talk me into it—you know, again, they were activists. They were very justice oriented. Dennis: Growing up in this home, where you didn't have a healthy relationship between a mother and a father, in a biblical sense, and without a standard—I was just wondering how you handled—you sure didn't have the culture shoving it down your throat as it does today; but you weren't confused, it doesn't sound like, at all. Caleb: No; I thought it was okay for them to do whatever; but you've got to understand, from the very beginning, my parents raised me differently. I mean, I'll just give you an example—I don't write about this in the book—but one of the first movies I ever saw, as a kid, was An American Werewolf in London.  Bob: Wow. Caleb: Still scares me today, thinking about it.  12:00 But you think about that!—there was no standard; there were no boundaries. That's one of the things I realized about my childhood—that there were no boundaries.  There were boundaries with my parents, but they're very long-stretched. When I would step over one—usually, when I would question their sexuality or their choice to be in a same-sex relationship, even at a young age—the consequences were very swift. That's how I grew up, so I had that same justice within me.  I got invited to go to this Bible study when I was in high school—led by a high schooler for high schoolers. I thought: “This is perfect! I'm going to go, and I'm going to pretend to be a Christian. I'm going to be a ninja-Christian. I'm going to go in there…” Bob: [Laughter] A ninja-Christian? Caleb: A ninja-Christian. Dennis: Now, hold it! What's that? Caleb: Well, you know: “I'm going to go in there and I'm going—I'm going to pretend to talk the lingo. I'm going to learn about the Bible and dismantle their faith with my questions,”—that was my plan.  I never owned a Bible.  13:00 I grabbed a New Revised Standard Version, and I didn't know what that meant. I just figured they revised something, and I took it. [Laughter] You've got to understand—I had never been in a Christian household before in my entire life—like an evangelical, conservative Christian household. Imagine me walking in, and the first thing I notice on the wall—I looked at my friend that came with me and I said, “Why are there framed pictures of sheep, and lions, and Bible verses all over the house?” I looked at my friend and I said: “Is this part of the deal? If I turn Christian, do I have to get a sheep picture?” [Laughter] I mean, because I had never seen so many framed pictures of sheep before in my life! [Laughter] Dennis: I want to take you back to the Gay Pride parade that you marched in as a boy. You gave some—really, I can't imagine, from a descriptive standpoint—having somebody spit on you, and toss water, and, as you said, urine on a little boy and have so many people hating you because you were marching in a parade on behalf of the whole LGBTQ community.  14:00 What would you say was the most hurtful and hateful thing you experienced, as a boy, growing up, from the Christian community?  I'm picturing you going to this Bible study—it's like I would think you would be a ninja, going into that thing; because you'd had some harm done to you by the Christian community. Was there anything done, as you grew up as a boy, that you would characterize as the most hurtful and hateful thing? Caleb: Yes; one time my mother and I were driving through Kansas to visit my family. There were these Christians on the street corners, holding up signs. I remember my mother's car was a purple RAV4. You've got to understand—she had bumper—she was very loud and proud—she had bumper stickers on there, like: “Lorena Bobbitt for Surgeon General” and stuff like that. I mean, “Graduate of Thelma & Louise Finishing School.” I mean, you'd spot it a mile away; you know? I remember, my mom didn't do anything to them.  15:00 She pulled up, and they saw her stickers. They started cussing at her, and they started yelling at her and spitting. I just looked at my mom. She started crying in that moment, because she felt humiliated. I remember thinking about that, and I remember— Dennis: How old were you as a boy? Caleb: I must have been close to middle school. It was not my best moment—I rolled down the window and flipped them the bird. I got a hold of their newsletter. They put that on the front of it, saying, “Look at our persecution.” Hopefully, that's gone out of print.  I just remember my mom and her reaction of them immediately judging her without getting to know her, and just the humiliation and the tears, and just the pain that she had. It was so raw that, when I looked at a Christian, I thought about that. Bob: So when somebody comes to you and says, “Do you want to come over to a Bible study at So-and-so's house?”  16:00 You were thinking: “I want to come blow this thing up. I don't want to come and be a part of this group. I want to come and dismantle it.” Caleb: I was ready for war; I was ready for war. Bob: And yet, you walk in. There are Bible verses and pictures of sheep all over the place. Caleb: Yes. Dennis: You were probably thinking about slaughtering some sheep at that point. [Laughter]  Caleb: I didn't know what was going to happen. I didn't know if we were going to sacrifice a chicken downstairs in the Bible study. I didn't know what would happen.  So we go down there, and we're all reading through 1 Corinthians. I'm in 1 Chronicles, and they're all reading verses from Paul. Then I read a verse about somebody getting slaughtered—not a sheep though—a person. They said, “Well, Caleb, where are you?” I said, “Well, I'm in 1 Chronicles.” “Oh! You're in the Old Testament!” I said: “So, I guess there's a new one. There's updated 2.0!” or something like that. I was so embarrassed, but I kept on going back; because I'm like, “I'm not going to let these people get me down.” Dennis: Did they know where you came from? Caleb: I think a couple of them did. Definitely, when I didn't even know there was a New Testament, they were like: “Oh look! Somebody that's not a Christian right there.” 17:00 Bob: Wow. Caleb: Some of the attitudes changed and softened towards me; because, when I first said that I was in 1 Chronicles: “Is there a New Testament?”—you know, a girl said, “Yes, the New Testament” as if I was supposed to know that. “I'm sorry. I must have one of those new Bibles,” you know? I didn't know. Bob: Right. Caleb: But I kept on going. It's funny; I was expecting to disprove the worldview of Christianity, but I found Somebody very different in the Gospels than what I had experienced on the street corners or the hospital rooms. Dennis: You'd actually had a young lady—prior to this Bible study; hadn't you?—who had given you what you thought was a love note? Caleb: [Sigh] Yes. That was painful. It was nice and painful at the same time, because she—you know, for elementary age, she was hot. I thought she dug my chili, but she didn't. It was a Jesus note. I remember opening it and thinking to myself: “Oh, really? A Jesus note?” I was hoping for: “Caleb, you're debonair. You're all this and more.”  18:00 You know, she explained the gospel to me. I threw away the note and told her I'd think about it. But even to this day, I still remember it; because she's probably one of the only Christians that I had a positive experience with. Actually, when I think about it now, she actually took the time to sit down and to write that out, as an elementary age schoolgirl—writing that out, letting us know about the gospel. That was huge when I think about it, and I tell my kids about that all the time. Bob: Okay; so if you could go back and have a do-over of your middle school/high school experience, and you could coach the Christians in your school on how to—how to reach out to a guy like you, what would you tell them to do differently than they did? Caleb: I would say: “Number one, don't assume that everybody else is at the same spiritual level that you are.”  Bob: Yes.  Caleb: I mean, even when I preach every Sunday, I don't make that, you know— Bob: —assumption. 19:00 Caleb: —assumption; exactly! Everybody's at a different spiritual level. The second thing that I would say is: “Don't automatically engage in a Bible study, where you think that everybody obviously knows: ‘Hey, we're going to go to 1 Corinthians,' ‘We're going to go to…Paul,'—this kind of thing. If you have a new person, you have no idea if they're new or not.”  “Don't assume that everybody's on the same page as you when it comes to politics,” because I wasn't whatsoever. I was raised by two extremely liberal parents. I was nowhere near, and they immediately brought up politics. They immediately started trashing politicians, and so on and so forth. You've got to understand—my mother was very political! I can be very political. This was a huge turn-off; because I'm like: “Okay; these people are assuming I am where they are. These people just are moving, and I'm lost. I don't even know that there's a New Testament. They're ripping people, politically, that I know that my mom likes.  20:00 “So far, it feels like the same thing, except I'm sitting down with the enemy. It feels like I'm sitting in the Trojan horse almost”; you know?—that's what it felt like in that moment. Dennis: Just listening to where you'd come from, I'm amazed you became a believer. It had to be God chasing you down—and His love and His grace. Caleb: It was the sovereignty of God, absolutely; 100 percent. Dennis: Yes.  Caleb: I mean, I learned——the more that I studied Jesus, Dennis, I learned that He had very deep theological convictions and expectations for how we should live our life. He also had very deep relationships with people—who are far from God and not like Him, which, I guess, was everybody was not like Him—but still, He pursued people that the religious culture would not. He pursued people that even secular society wouldn't either. He really marched to the beat of His own drum. Dennis: Yes; you tell the story in your book about how Jesus approached the woman caught in adultery— 21:00 Caleb: Yes. Dennis: —and how the religious community didn't rescue her. They were ready to stone her. Caleb: No. Dennis: And how Jesus reached out and protected her. I think that's who you encountered in that Bible study. You ultimately found the Jesus Christ of the Gospels and of the New Testament, who fulfilled the Old Testament. He became flesh and showed us what real love looks like and what God's love for us is today. Bob: Yes; we've reflected, often here, on what John says about Jesus in John 1:14, which is that He was the picture for us—He is the revelation of the Father—but it says He's full of grace and truth. He's full of both—there's grace and there's truth. I think that's what we're having to learn to wrap our hearts and heads around, as followers of Jesus today: “How can we be full of truth?”  22:00 Well, you say it: “How Can We Learn to Love Others Without Sacrificing Conviction?”—that's the subtitle of the book you've written—called Messy Grace.  I'd encourage our listeners to get a copy of it and read your story—read the things you've learned along the way, and how you've coached us today to do better as we engage with people who don't think the way we think about issues. Caleb Kaltenbach's book is called Messy Grace. We've got it in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can order a copy from us, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to order a copy. Again, the toll-free number is 1-800-358-6329—1-800-FL-TODAY—or go online to order at FamilyLifeToday.com. We want to take a minute here and just say a quick word of thanks to those of you who are, not just regular listeners to FamilyLife Today—  23:00 —and while we're glad to have all of our regular listeners tuning in—thank you for doing that. We want to give a special shout-out to those of you who make this program possible. I don't know how many listeners realize this; but in your community, there are a small number of people who have made it possible for you to hear what you've heard today. They are friends of this ministry, who will, either on occasion or on a regular basis, support FamilyLife Today with a donation. During the summer months, we often see a decline in the number of folks we hear from, who are helping to support this program. If you're a regular listener—if programs like the one you've heard today are helpful for you and your family / if you think this is an important conversation to be having in your community—would you join the FamilyLife® team and help make this program possible on an ongoing basis? You can do that by giving, online, at FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can call to donate at 1-800-FL-TODAY. And you can mail your donation to us.  24:00 Our address is FamilyLife Today, PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. Now, tomorrow, we want to talk about the difference between accepting someone and approving of someone; because, as we'll hear from Caleb Kaltenbach, that's an important distinction. I hope you can be back with us again tomorrow. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com  

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. The Deadly Traps of AdolescenceDay 1 of 10 Guest:                        Dennis and Barbara Rainey From the series:       What are the Deadly Traps?______________________________________________________________  Bob:                The road along which a teenager travels has traps on either side. Teenager:      Dad?  Dad?  Slow down.  I can't see.  Well, I know you can.  Dad, are you sure this blindfold doesn't come off?  What traps?  Huh?  Where?  Hey, Dad, I'm going to let go for a second.  I'll be okay, don't worry.  I'm just going right over here.  See?  See, I'm fine.  There, see?  Nothing happened.  There weren't any traps.  Huh?  Where am I going?  Just out.  Dad, I know, I still have the blindfold on, and you've been down this – I know, I know – bye. (footsteps and then teenager yells)                         Dad? Bob:                Ouch.  This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, July 9th.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  The road to adolescence is paved with deadly traps.  Stay tuned.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Monday edition, and there you have it.  You heard the sound of another teenager in the snare. Dennis:          Yeah, and did you hear that cry – "Hey, Dad."  Have you ever done that? Bob:                I've been off in some of those snares as I wandered my way through adolescence.  Dennis:          That's right, and I've cried out, and sometimes I've been too far away from home, Bob, yeah, and it's a serious matter, though.  We're laughing about it – these snares that are in existence today for teenagers are all too real and all too dangerous. Bob:                We're going to be talking this week about some of the deadlier snares that are laid for our teenagers in our culture today, and this is material that comes out of a book that you and your wife, Barbara, have written recently.  In fact, Barbara is in the studio with us.  Hi, Barbara. Barbara:         Hi, Bob. Bob:                The name of the book is … Dennis:          … oh, no, you've got to do more than that, Bob.  I mean, she is denying all types of motherly and wifely duties to be in here, and I just feel like (applauds). Bob:                That's right.  We're glad you're along, our listeners are glad you're along …                         … good … Dennis:          … yeah, back by popular demand.  You know, we were having dinner last night with a couple and they said, "You know, we really like it when Barbara is on the broadcast." Bob:                And I really appreciate, too, and I know Barbara does, that you have offered, Dennis, to do a lot of the laundry and a lot of the dishes as a result of Barbara … Barbara:         … yeah, dinner is the big thing. Dennis:          I don't remember that. [laughter]  Bob:                We're going to be talking about things that come out of a book that the two of you have recently written.  It's entitled, "Parenting Today's Adolescent," and remind us of what are the big concepts that parents need to be aware of as we go through the process of raising our children. Dennis:          Well, the book is really built around three underlying assumptions, and the first one is so important.  In fact, over the next few days the listeners are going to hear us over and over again pound the table about being relationally involved in our children's lives – not merely being at their events, not just going with them but having our hearts connected soul-to-soul. Bob:                Barbara, if you don't have the relationship in place, you're really headed for some turbulent waters as you head into adolescence, aren't you? Barbara:         Yeah, because it's so easy for our teenagers to get involved in myriads of activities – just thing after thing after thing, and they're after school at practices, and they're going to ball games at night, and they're getting up early to do things, and you just don't see them anymore, and unless you've got connecting points, unless you're pursuing that teenager and asking questions constantly – where are you going?  What are you doing?  What's happening in your life?  Who are you hanging out with? and pursuing that child to get to know that child and stay after it, you're going to end up going your separate ways. Dennis:          Yeah, in fact, last night Barbara and I were both up late with a teenager on our bed, and it was fascinating, because we were having a discussion around one of these traps that gets an adolescent.  It's the trap of deceit.  And our daughter was on the edge of the bed down near one corner, and I looked at her, and I said, "Sweetheart, you need to understand that it's not you in one corner of life and us in the other corner, and that we, as your parents are adversaries.  We are in your corner, and we're fighting for you, and we want to keep you out of these deadly traps that are going to get teenagers."                           And I just need you to know and need you to understand that, as parents, the reason we love you and are going to battle for you is because we want to save you from the pain that we just heard at the beginning of the broadcast of that teenager walking off into that trap.                           And I said to that teenage daughter, "Do you understand what we're saying?  We're really pulling for you?  We're not against you.  And, finally, all too late last night, she nodded her head and said, "Yes, Daddy."                           And it was an acknowledgement that only came about after a 30-minute conversation, Bob, that the easiest thing to have done would have been to gone to sleep.  I mean, both of us were dead on our feet.  We were whipped, but it was one of those magical moments that God orchestrates where if you don't fight it through and go ahead and love that child and stay relationally connected, you're going to miss a phenomenal teaching opportunity with that child. Bob:                And that "Yes, Daddy," was resignation that, "I know this is true intellectually but, boy, it doesn't always feel like we're in the same corner, and you're fighting for me." Dennis:          No, it doesn't, but we've got to hang in there.  A second assumption that we think every parent of a preteen or a teen needs to have today as they raise these adolescents to maturity is that they've got to have their own convictions.  They need to know what their values are, what they believe, and then they need to know how to build those convictions, that they possess as parents, into the life of the child.  And that means you have to shape those convictions in the soul of that child and then end up testing those convictions over the next six, seven years all the way through adolescence. Bob:                That's, really, Barbara, at the heart of what we're doing, as parents, with adolescent children.  We are transferring convictions to them, helping them establish a bedrock of core convictions. Barbara:         Mm-hm, and if parents don't know what they believe to start with, it is so easy to be blindsided by all the choices that our kids face, and if you haven't thought through what you're going to do about this or about that, all of a sudden, a kid comes home and says, "Can I go do this?"  And parents are so caught off guard that they kind of cave and go, "Well, I guess," and then later on they may go, "Well, that wasn't such a great idea, but" … Bob:                … but now, all of a sudden, a precedent has been set. Barbara:         They're stuck, that's right.  Dennis:          That's right, and when the doctor handed us a little baby by the name of Ashley, back in 1974, the doctor didn't say to us, "You know, Dennis, Barbara, you better establish a few convictions, because this child is going to need boundaries.  This child is going to need fences around her life to protect her from evil but also to give her a chance to formulate her own beliefs and her own convictions before she leaves the yard, moves out through the gate to the big, bad world out there."                         And I believe that the whole process of pre-adolescence and adolescence is one long process of taking our convictions that we've come to and implanting them in our children, watering them, nourishing them, cheering them on, picking them up when they fail, and then sending them out, finally, to the world to have those convictions have an impact on a world that desperately needs to see men and women today who stand for something, who have boundaries in their lives, and who are standing upon the Word of God. Bob:                That really takes courage on the part of parents. Dennis:          Yeah, and that's the third thing that parents need to have today, and I hope this book can literally reach through its pages to the hearts and heavy hands of parents and say to you, you know what?  It can be done.  You can do it.  With the strength that God supplies, with the truth in His Word, with the Holy Spirit guiding you, you, as a parent, can raise a teenager that has the courage to stand for his convictions, for her beliefs, for his values, and they can have a sense of a spiritual mission about their lives that will carry them through some early years of adulthood and on into maturity when they establish their own homes. Bob:                Barbara, one of the things, as I read through the book that I kept reminding myself and highlighting, were the parts where you and Dennis say, "Remember, you're the parent.  You have not only the right but the responsibility to do these things."  Why is it, as parents, that we lose sight of that and forget that we're in charge, and we can say yes and no and you've got to live with that? Barbara:         I don't know exactly why it is, but it is so true. Dennis:          It's real, isn't it? Barbara:         It's very, very true, yeah.  I think part of it is is that we, I think, deep down inside, wish it were not so hard.  I think we wish that we could teach our kids a principle or a lesson and have them learn it and be done with it and not have to reteach the same thing over and over and over, and I think it's that weariness that we begin to feel after three or four years into the process, thinking, "My gosh, are they going to ever get it?  Are they going to ever understand?  Am I not making sense?  What's the problem here?"  And after a while we just get battle weary, because it is a struggle. Dennis:          I think there's something about the human spirit that wears down, and that's why a good bit of the New Testament is directed to our hearts to give us courage and not lose heart.  Galatians, chapter 6, verse 9 is, I think, just a great verse for every parent –  "Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up."                         Bob, I think it's so easy for parents today to give up.  The number of traps that our teenagers face, the swift current of the culture, the lack of support in the community for people who hold to any kind of convictions – I mean, you're looked upon as weird if you have any kind of statement of belief today, and yet that's what teenagers desperately need, and they need it from parents who have not grown weary in well doing. Bob:                We've got five kids – only two who have moved into adolescence.  We're already weary.  You've had three already pass through.  How do you keep from getting weary? Barbara:         Well, I don't think you can prevent getting weary.  I mean, I've been weary the last few days, because I'm looking at our kids and thinking, "I don't think they're getting it.  I'm not sure we're communicating right," and it's that feeling like a failure as a parent that wears you down, because you know what you want in the end.  You know what the goal is, but sometimes you're not so sure how to get there.  And so the process, that race that we're running, is a long one, and I just think it wears us down.  And the only solution is is to just take some time and get away and remind ourselves of what the truth is and that God is for us, and that if we'll continue to seek Him and trust and pray – I'm praying more than I've ever prayed in my life for my kids. Bob:                This week we're going to look at seven of the 14 traps that the two of you have outlined in the book, and these seven are probably the more obvious and, in some cases, the more dangerous, or the more deadly traps that are laid for teenagers.  And the first one that we're going to be looking at this week is the trap of peer pressure, which is something that all of us face, whether we're adolescents or adults – really, it's a challenge for all people, isn't it? Dennis:          1 Corinthians, 15:33 says, "Bad company corrupts good morals."  That's true whether you're 12, 22, or 52, it doesn't matter and, as parents, what we've got to do is we have to anticipate that the teenage years are the most peer-dependent period in any person's life, and we have to be there, alongside our child, guiding them around these traps so that the enemy of their souls does not ensnare them into evil. Bob:                Barbara, one of the big traps that parents are acutely aware of, particularly in this culture, is the trap of premarital sexual involvement. Barbara:         Yeah, Bob, it's because it's so prevalent in our culture, and we see it everywhere, and we know about kids everywhere who are experimenting in this area, and I think parents are very aware of this trap, and they're scared to death and, as a result, we need to really think through – what do we believe?  What are we going to do about this with our kids?  What are our standards going to be?  How are we going to teach our kids to avoid this trap, because we know it's deadly. Dennis:          1 Thessalonians, chapter 4, says abstain from sexual immorality, period.  And, as parents, we are to guide our children around this snare, helping them stay out and away from any form of sexual immorality and, frankly, these are some of the most controversial chapters in the entire book, Bob, because we challenge parents to decide what do you believe about sex prior to marriage, and if your child comes and asks you a question, how will you draw the line for him or for her?                           In my opinion today, this is where we're using our young people – when parents don't know what they believe around life's most fundamental drive – the sex drive.  It's like if you can't define life around that, then will you define it around anything?                           The answer is no and, personally, nothing has caused us more agony and time with our teenagers than getting involved in this area, talking to them straight about their character, their choices, what they're going to do, what they're not going to do, challenging them to the highest standard.  And nothing sounds stranger today in this culture than to be in this area with your teenager, tracking with them, involved with them, and cheering them on to purity and a biblical word called "holiness."   Bob:                Barbara, right next to that huge bear trap of sexual immorality there is another trap that's a little bit smaller, but it kind of triggers the second trap, and that's the trap of dating. Barbara:         Yeah, they're kind of in tandem, they kind of go together, and they're often laid right next to each other, and you step in one, and you're in the other one.  The whole thing of dating is it's such an issue with kids because it, too, sneaks up on parents.  We tend to think that our kids can't date until they're old enough to drive or be out in a car, but the whole idea of pairing up – of girls and boys pairing up and kind of becoming exclusive with one another and belonging to one another – all that starts, sometimes, in elementary school but, for sure, in junior high. Bob:                Oh, for sure. Barbara:         For sure.  You're nodding like you know. Bob:                Yeah, for sure. Dennis:          Had a few phone calls at the Lepine house. Bob:                A few e-mails, a few phone calls, for sure. Barbara:         That's a knowing for sure, isn't it?  Well, I think what parents need to be aware of is that they need to be tracking with their kids and being involved with their kids on this issue, too, because this pairing up business, to the kids, is serious, and what it is, it's the foot in the door to dating, and then it becomes a foot in the door to the sexual temptations because, all of a sudden, they're seeing all these other little couples at school holding hands and hugging in the hall and maybe sitting on somebody's lap in the lunchroom or whatever.                           And that begins to look normal to our children because that's where they are all day, and so they begin to think, in their minds, there's nothing wrong with that.  So-and-so does it and everybody else is doing it, and so they, all of a sudden, assume that standard for themselves unless they've been taught otherwise. Bob:                And they think, "I'm not normal if I'm not doing it."  And, Dennis, even if young people stay out of the trap of sexual immorality, the dating trap has some challenges of its own apart from the issue of sexual involvement. Dennis:          Yeah, exactly, the whole issue of romance is a biggie, and I'm just grateful for Barbara, who has been tracking on this one from the beginning with our children, really trying to protect them from developing this romanticized view of relationships that's so prevalent among teenagers.                          It's been said puppy love may be puppy love, but it's real to the puppy and, I'm tell you, to a teenager, that romantic view of life – they fall into that and, I'm telling you, they just want to be in love with being in love. Bob:                Mm-hm, some of that comes out of one of the other traps that you talk about – that's the trap of media, because we're constantly fed in the media a diet of romance and sexual immorality. Barbara:         There's no doubt that the media strongly influences that whole concept of dating, because every movie has got a romantic line in it of some kind, whether it's the major theme in the movie or it's a small theme, it doesn't matter.  It's in every movie that these kids see, and they've been seeing them since they were young so this has kind of been building, this whole idea of romance and being in love and having somebody that's my own has been building in their thinking for years and years.  It's in every book, it's in every song they listen to, it's just everywhere. Dennis:          When we were writing this chapter in the book, I chuckled out loud, because there were so many distractions.  I was working on the computer at home, and my teenagers all wanted to get in the computer to get their e-mail.  There was telephone, there was TV, there were movies, there was music – I mean, all these things were happening in our house, and I could hear it.  I was going, "There is an amazing amount of media that is shaping and influencing my teenagers."                         And most parents are not proactive, we are being overtaken by it, and we're in a defensive mode when it comes to all these forms of media. Bob:                There are other traps that are laid for our kids that we're going to be talking about during this series – the trap of pornography, there's the trap of substance abuse, and then there's a deadly trap of unresolved anger in our kids. Dennis:          We don't realize how important our relationship is with each of our teenagers, and if we don't train our teenager in how to resolve conflict as he experiences it, then that teenager can be isolated from the people that love him the most and that can guide him through the most perilous period of his entire life.  Most teenage boys are angry.  They're just ticked off at the world.  I don't understand what testosterone does to them, but I'm telling you, they just get ticked, and guess who bears the brunt of that anger?  It's mom.                         And if mom's not careful, mom will get hurt, mom will get angry, she'll get in one corner, they'll get in the other corner, and instead of the parent being in the teenager's corner, they're coming out at the ring of the bell, starting another round of arguing, of words flying around, and the very relationship that teen needs is not in place to protect him or to protect her. Bob:                You know, I can't see our listeners, but I imagine the number of heads nodding as we go through these issues.  We all live with these very present issues daily as we're raising our kids, and it's hard not to become weary as we talked about earlier in the broadcast.                           Over the next few days as we go through each of these issues, you're going to help us understand how you have come to the some of the convictions you've come to, what they are, and then how you press those convictions toward your children. Dennis:          Each of these 14 traps that we talk about has a description of the problem, then we share what our convictions are about this particular issue – like sex, like dating, like pornography, like media, and after we help the parent understand what our convictions are and how we came to them, then we come alongside the parent and equip that mom and dad to be able to shape those convictions that they hold into the life of their preteen and teenager, so that when that teenager begins to face the issues around each of these traps, he already has some convictions that need to be shaped. Bob:                I know many of our listeners have a copy already of your book, "Parenting Today's Adolescent."  But I also know there are some moms and dads who have children who are 9, 10, 11, in what you two refer to as "the golden years."  And they're thinking, "Well, I don't need a book like this now because I'm not facing these issues.  And, probably, the perfect time to start reading a book like this is when your son or daughter is in those preteen years, because you need a proactive game plan.  You need to anticipate some of these issues rather than having them just pop up on you, and you hadn't even thought about them as issues.                         I remember when our oldest daughter, Amy, was a teenager, and she had gone over to a friend's house to spend the night, and it turned out that a group of them had been out of the home past midnight.  Well, we'd never thought about curfew issues.  We'd never thought about those kinds of restrictions, and we had to address that – not proactively but reactively.  It took us by surprise.                         And what you help us do in the book, "Parenting Today's Adolescent," is start thinking about those issues and develop, as you said, the convictions we have as parents and then determine how we want to help shape our children's convictions as they grow through adolescence as well.                         You can to go our website, FamilyLife.com, if you are interested in getting a copy of the book.  Again, it's called "Parenting Today's Adolescent."  Go to FamilyLife.com and click the red button you see in the middle of the home page that says "Go."  That will take you to the area of the site where there is more information about that resource and other resources we have for parents of teenagers.                         Again, the website is FamilyLife.com, click the red button that says "Go," and find out more about the book, "Parenting Today's Adolescent."  You can order online, if you'd like, or if it's easier, you can call 1-800-FLTODAY.  That's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY, and someone on our team can make arrangements to have a copy of the book, "Parenting Today's Adolescent" send out to you.                           By the way, when you get in touch with us, if you are able to help us this month with a donation of any amount for the ministry of FamilyLife Today, we would like to send you as a thank you gift the new book by Dennis Rainey that is called "Interviewing Your Daughter's Date," and this is a great guidebook for dads, especially those dads who have a daughter who is beginning to be pursued by young men.  We'll send this book to you as our way of saying thank you this month when you make a donation of any amount for the ministry of FamilyLife Today.                         Go to our website to donate, FamilyLife.com, and as you fill out the donation form, when you get to the keycode box on the form, type the word "date" in there, d-a-t-e.  Or call 1-800-FLTODAY, you can make your donation over the phone and just mention that you'd like Dennis's new book, "Interviewing Your Daughter's Date," and we'll be happy to send it to you.  Again, it's one way that we can say thanks for your participation with us in this ministry and your partnership with us here eon FamilyLife Today.                         Well, tomorrow we want to talk about one of the traps that our teenagers face – actually, this really starts before they become teenagers, but it intensifies in the teen years.  That's the issue of peer pressure and how that can be a deadly trap for our teens.  I hope you can be back with us for that.                         I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.                          FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ._______________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com         

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. The Deadly Traps of Adolescence Day 3 of 10 Guest:                        Dennis and Barbara Rainey From the series:       Sex________________________________________________________________   Bob:                If you're a parent, have you challenged your son or your daughter to wait until marriage to become sexually active?  Barbara Rainey says maybe you haven't given enough of a challenge. Barbara:         We've realized with our kids that the standard of maintaining their virginity is not enough, because when a young girl and a young boy get together, and they decide they like each other, and they begin holding hands and hugging and kissing and other things, what's happening is they're damaging their purity; they're losing their innocence. Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, July 11th.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  As parents, how can we challenge our teenagers to a high standard of moral purity?  We'll talk about that today.                         And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition.  This week we are spending some time looking at the traps that have been set for our teenagers throughout our culture and what we can do as parents to help steer our children around these traps so that they don't become ensnared.  And what we're talking about comes from a book by Dennis and Barbara Rainey called "Parenting Today's Adolescent," and Barbara joins us in the studio today.  Hi, Barbara, nice to have you back with us. Barbara:         Thanks, Bob. Bob:                Dennis, these traps that face our teenagers can be invisible to us, as parents, but they can also be deadly to our kids. Dennis:          They can, in fact, I think that's why much of the scripture is warning us about snares and traps.  There are more than 50 references in the Old Testament and New Testament to avoiding the snare of the enemy, or the trap of the evil person, and over in Proverbs, chapter 7, there's the warning against the adulteress, and although it's talking about a married man, I think it relates to our teenagers as we help them navigate the dangers of all the traps set before them.                         It's speaking of the adulteress here in verse 21, "With persuasive words, she led him astray.  She seduced him with her smooth talk.  All at once, he followed her like an ox going to the slaughter, like a deer stepping into a noose, 'til an arrow pierces his liver like a bird darting into a snare, little knowing it will cost him his life."                           Then Solomon says, "Now, then, my sons, listen up, listen to me, pay attention to what I say.  Do not let your heart turn to her ways or stray into her path."  Why?  Because there's a snare there – there's a trap there, and it may cost you your soul.  It may destroy your life. And, Bob, I think, as parents, we need to assume the responsibility that Solomon was with his son when he penned this book and sought to instruct his son in the way of righteousness.  We need to help our children isolate and determine what those snares are, where the traps are being laid, and then help them understand how it happens, and he described the harlot here of persuading the young man with her words and then with her eyes, and he explained to his son how it all happened, and, you know, that's a picture of how we, as parents, are to help our children around these traps. Bob:                And, Barbara, the trap that Dennis has illustrated from the scriptures for us is the one that we're going to be spending time with today and tomorrow – it's the trap of illicit or premarital sexual relations, and whether it's a young lady who is subtly enticing our sons to be sexually involved with her, or a young man who is putting pressure on our daughters to be sexually involved with him, our kids are undoubtedly going to experience, going to face this temptation, this snare, of how involved they're going to be with a member of the opposite sex. Barbara:         And it starts earlier than many of us would ever expect, and that's what I think catches us, as parents, off guard, is that it begins in junior high, and our kids, our girls and our boys, our sons, are faced with this temptation very early on by children who are more grown up, who are raised in a more promiscuous background than we were, who have been exposed to more things in the sexual area than our children have been, and our kids are exposed to that, and they need to know what to do, they need to know what their standards are, they need to know how to make a decision about it. Dennis:          One of the reasons why we have come up with this material, Bob, is out of our sixth grade Sunday school class.  We taught that class for more than 11 years and taught more than 500 11- and 12-year-olds.  Now, that's a lot of sixth graders, and when we started teaching that class, we looked out over them, and we made a wrong assumption.                           We thought, "They're little, they're small, they're young, they're not ready to be challenged in some of the most fundamental areas of life."  And I'm going to tell you, over the 11 years we taught that, if those children taught me anything, it was that assumption was dead wrong.  Eleven and 12-year-old children, and I believe even down to the age of 10, are capable of beginning to hear some very mature material around building their own convictions and beliefs and taking a stand for certain things.                          In fact, one of the things that shocked me was, one of the times when I was teaching about sex to these kids, and I wouldn't talk about the birds and the bees – I always talked about the character issues – your choices and what are you going to do with the opposite sex when you get alone with them?                           I asked them how far they would go with the opposite sex, and I'll share later on, in the next couple of broadcasts, what they said, but what shocked me was they already knew.  They had already drawn some lines in their mind of how far they were going to go in terms of physical involvement with the opposite sex, and what hit me about this is that, here they are, many of them haven't even broken into puberty yet.  They haven't experienced electricity, and they're already figuring out how to turn on the light bulb.                         What's going to happen when the electricity is turned on?  What's going to happen to their standards then?  And it so shocked me and so took me back that I began to restructure everything I was teaching and began to challenge them much as I would challenge a high school senior – challenging them to think through what their convictions were as they related to the opposite sex.                          And the bottom line for a parent right here is you need to look at that son or daughter who may be 9, 10, 11, 12 – not quite a teenager yet, doesn't have a teenage body, not gone through puberty at all – let me tell you something – you have a wonderful opportunity now – not two years from now, not six months from now – today, right now, to begin to instruct them and to shape their convictions around one of the biggest temptations a human being will ever face. Bob:                Barbara, at the core of what you and Dennis have encouraged your kids to do in this area is a conviction that the standards most people are setting today are way too low. Barbara:         Yes, we've realized with our kids that the standard of maintaining their virginity is not enough, because when a young girl and a young boy get together, and they decide they like each other, and they begin holding hands and hugging and kissing and other things, what's happening is they're damaging their purity, they're losing their innocence, they're getting involved with each other emotionally.  They're giving away part of themselves to another person that was not intended to be done until marriage.                         And so we realized that we wanted to challenge our kids to a much, much higher standard of purity.  We didn't want them to just end up in marriage as a virgin, we wanted them to enter marriage pure, we wanted them to enter marriage with everything that God wanted them to have intact still there to give to their marriage partner.                         So we began challenging our kids with the idea of not getting involved physically at all – not kissing, not holding hands, not hugging, those kinds of things, and we began to talk to them about what that does to them physically and emotionally and how that makes them feel, and what's happening, what's going on when – if they would do those things and why we feel that way and what our standards are, and it's provided lots and lots of interesting conversations, because that is dramatically, radically opposed to what the world is saying. Bob:                Yeah, how long did it take, Dennis, before the word got out at the kids' school or in church that the Rainey kids are really weird, and their parents are really strange, too? Dennis:          You know, it's interesting, Bob, I don't know that the word's out yet. Bob:                Oh, is that right? Barbara:         Not as much as we'd like, I think. Dennis:          Well, you know, that may be true, too, but I think what children are looking for today are some standards that build security.  When you build a fence around a playground, that enables the children to use the whole playground, and teenagers are no different.  They need to learn how to establish relationships without defining those relationships physically.                           Teenagers, given their natural bent, are not going to define and develop relationships verbally and emotionally – they're going to define and develop those relationships romantically and physically, and so what Barbara and I had to determine was, hey, we can either take our teenager head-on and say, you know what?  We're going to tell it to you like it is. We're going to challenge you with what we believe is the right standard for you, as a young person, and it's a high standard, it's a holy standard, but it's the right standard for today, and you know what?  We're not going to compromise by mumbling or stuttering or stammering.   We're going to step up, and we're going to tell it to you straight, because we believe, as we do that, that's going to liberate you and free you to be able to get on with what you need to be focusing in on right now, which is developing relationships and friendship on a casual basis and not on this in-depth romantic basis that all teens naturally move to.  What insanity. I mean, think about it – that Christian parents would be herding their children off down this path into the gaping jaws of romance, dating, and sex.  I want to tell you something, that's what a lot of them are doing as we move our children even into our Christian groups.  We're encouraging these kinds of relationships.  And it's the parents who need to seize the high ground.  It's the parents who need to take the child by the arm and guide them through these traps. Bob:                Barbara, as you have challenged your children in these areas, have they thought about it for a second and then said, "Boy, I can see the wisdom of that, Mom and Dad, and I'm with you 100 percent.  No kissing for me until I get to the altar." Barbara:         Never.  Well, it's so different from what they're seeing and hearing that it's taken them a long time to kind of swallow, but, you know, I was just thinking of the old adage, "Rather be safe than sorry," and I would much rather battle my kids and go over and over and over this than have them have regrets someday.  I don't want them living with regrets.                           If there's any way that we, as parents, can help them avoid making mistakes that they're going to regret for the rest of their lives, I'm going to do it, and so what it means is that we stay after it, and we go over it and over it and over it and continue to reinforce those things and continue to reteach and explain why, because they're out there in the culture all the time, and the culture has given them all these other signals, and so you're having to battle all that, and it just takes a lot of time and a lot of energy to continue to do that and guide them in the right direction. Dennis:          I think if a parent who is raising an adolescent today was asked – what are you challenging your teenager to?  What's the standard when it comes to sex?  I think most parents would say, "Well, we want them to be virgins when they get married."  And yet I think that goal, as such, sets our children up to get much closer to intercourse than if we were building a fence at the top of the cliff that is a ways away from the edge.                         And you may disagree with our little challenge that we've given our children, but, you know, whether or not you agree with us is not really the issue here.  The issue is what do you believe and where do you draw the line?                         I fear today that the Christian community is being conformed to the world and doesn't want to draw any lines, and the reality is the culture is drawing the lines or it's erasing them.  Really, the culture is erasing those lines, and our teens are being pressed further and further and closer to the edge.  And meanwhile the parents – what are we doing?  We're stepping off to the side and going, "Well, kids will be kids."                          God gave children to us, as parents.  We're to be the protectors of our children's sexual purity, of their emotional purity, of their sexual innocence, and the issue – what are we doing with that?  Are we leaving them to their own devices, or are we going to challenge them with a standard that forces them to think long and hard about the culture and about who they are and about their decision to follow Christ. And I wonder, Bob, if some of these decisions that we've made haven't resulted in our older teenagers – who have now moved on into their 20s – if it hasn't resulted in them – of them taking a stronger stand for Christ because they had to courageously begin to adopt some of these standards. Bob:                Barbara, Dennis talked about not only their sexual purity, but their emotional purity as well.  How far, physically, do young men and young women need to go before their heart begins to get swept away? Barbara:         Well, they don't need to go very far at all, and even these junior high kids can get paired up with another guy or a girl, and just the contact that they can have in a school setting is enough for them to be giving their emotions – where they begin to feel attached to that person, where they need to talk to that person, and that's what we're talking about – it's the sense that these kids have of, "I have to be with him," "I have to have his attention, and if he doesn't give me that attention, then I feel lost or I feel insecure," and that's what begins to develop, and we don't want our children's security dependent on another kid at school.  Their security needs to be in who they are as a person and who God created them to be.                          So it does not take much physical interaction at all for that emotional side of them to get caught up in it, and then, all of a sudden, they're hooked on this person, and they have to have that person. Dennis:          The Bible is so wise.  It recognizes the emotional connection that occurs when two people get involved sexually, and I think that's why it warns us over and over again to avoid it.  1 Corinthians, chapter 6, verse 18 through 20 –  "Flee sexual immorality.  Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body."                           Let me just say there – where are the emotions in our body?  That's what the scripture is warning us about.  "Do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you whom you have from God and that you are not your own?  For you were bought with a price.  Therefore, glorify God in your body."                           2 Timothy 2:22 also says, "Flee also youthful lusts but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call upon the Lord out of a pure heart."  What's God after here?  He wants a pure heart.                         I want to read you something from our book.  It's something we wanted to capture in words just to give parents a picture of what our goal ought to be –  "Picture a beautiful, exquisitely wrapped package.  Inside is the most delightful, untainted pleasures you could imagine.  Now, wouldn't you want to be able to give that gift to your child?  Wouldn't you love to give your child a gift that would be good, wholesome, something to treasure for a lifetime?  That's what this gift of innocence is all about – helping your child understand who they are as a sexual creature reflecting the image of God.  That's your goal, and once you make it your goal, it will begin to change the way you think about how you guide your teenager down through the dangerous, trap-infested street through Teensville."                         Bob, I think every parent is jealous for our children to experience all of life that God intended, and it needs to be experienced in God's timing, and I believe sex, and that is all of sex, was intended to be experienced in marriage. Bob:                Barbara, I can think of two big reasons why parents are intimidated in talking about high standards with their children.  The first reason is because they feel like hypocrites, because they compromised their own standards when they were young people.                           The second reason is because they know it may cause them to have to change some things about their own behavior today – movies they're watching, television shows, or even their interaction with members of the opposite sex, even in the context of marriage. Barbara:         Well, I think parents need to just evaluate what's more important – is your child's life more important than your life and your pleasures and your interests?  Is your past going to keep you from doing what's right?  I mean, most of us grew up and lied, but do we ever say that we shouldn't teach our children not to lie just because we made that mistake?  I mean, we've all made mistakes in different areas of our lives, but that doesn't meant that we can't teach our children what is right and hold them to a standard of godliness.                         I don't have a problem at all with holding my kids to a higher standard in all kinds of areas and in ways that I didn't live life the way I should have, because I know more now than I did when I was a teenager.  I'm much more mature in Christ than I was then, and I want my kids to experience all that God intends for them to experience, and that is more important to me than my own interests or my own pleasures, so to speak, today.  So I think parents need to pull back and say, "What is my goal?  What's more important in life?  Is the life of your child more important than your life or not? Bob:                And if they say to you – "Well, what about you when you were a teenager?  What did you do?  How far did you go?"  How do you answer? Barbara:         If my children ask me that question?  Well, I think that needs to be answered very, very carefully, because different parents are going to have different answers to that question, and I think that there may come a time when a parent may need to say to a child – but it would need to be when the child is much older – "Here are the mistakes that I made, and I am trying my best to preserve your innocence so that you don't make the mistakes that I made," but I think parents need to be very careful in what they say, when they say it, and how much they say. Dennis:          Yeah, I'd be careful about ever sharing a great deal of detail around sexual failures that you may have made as a teenager, a college student, or as an adult.  Children at this age need models and heroes and, emotionally, I don't think they're ready to hear the whole truth and nothing but the truth from their parents.  They need you to stand strong on behalf of the standard.  Now, that doesn't mean you lie to them. Barbara:         Or that you act like you're perfect and never do anything wrong, either.  They need a role model, but they need someone that they know that – you know – you've made some mistakes, but you don't have to enumerate them and spell them out. Dennis:          I might say something to a child to the effect, "You know, that's a great question, and someday you and I will have a conversation around that, but right now here is what I want you to focus on as a young man or a young lady, and move the focus off of you back where it needs to be – on the Scripture and on the young person who is beginning to develop his or her convictions.                         All of these things we're talking about begin as convictions in the parent, but it can't stop there.  It needs to be implanted in the heart of a child. Bob:                This is a significant enough issue that you devoted two chapters in your book, "Parenting Today's Adolescent," to this subject because there's a lot for parents to think through and be alert to and be prepared for.  This is one of the big traps facing teenagers today, and we want to make sure that, as parents, we address this issue in a healthy, godly, biblical way promoting the standard of purity with our teenagers and helping them see that this is a good gift from God for husbands and wives in a marriage relationship.                         You know, a couple of weeks ago we mentioned to our listeners a couple of classic books by Elizabeth Elliot that deal with this issue of purity.  Her book, "Passion and Purity," and then the follow-up book, "Quest for Love" are books that are really timeless classics that promote a healthy, biblical view of romance and passion and intimacy and helps young people see how that can be lived out and some of the destructive things that can happen if someone violates God's standards for sexuality.                         In addition to your book, "Parenting Today's Adolescent," we have Elizabeth Elliot's books also in our FamilyLife Resource Center.  And I just want to encourage our listeners, go to our website, FamilyLife.com, and if you click the red button that says "Go" in the middle of the screen, that will take you to an area of the site where you can get more information on recources that we have available here at FamilyLife designed to help you, as a parent, not only wrestle with your own convictions but help you challenge your sons and your daughters to a biblical standard in this area.                         Again, our website is FamilyLife.com, and you click the red button that says "Go."  It will take you to the area of the site where you can order copies of these books that I've mentioned or get more information about them.  You can also call 1-800-FLTODAY.  That's 1-800-358-6329, and someone on our team will let you know how you can get copies of these resources sent out to you.                         And then if you're a father, let me also encourage you to consider getting a copy of Dennis Rainey's new book, "Interviewing Your Daughter's Date."  It's available in our FamilyLife Resource Center as well, but this month we also want to make it available to you as a thank you gift when you support the ministry of FamilyLife Today with a donation of any amount.                           We are listener-supported.  We depend on donations from our listeners to be able to continue this ministry on this station and on other stations all across the country, and we thought this month a good way to say thank you for your financial support would be to make available Dennis's new book.  You can request it when you donate online at FamilyLife.com by typing the word "date" into the keycode box that you find on the donation form.  You type that in there, and we'll send you a copy of the book.                              Or call 1-800-FLTODAY, that's 1-800-358-6329, and make your donation over the phone and just mention that you'd like a copy of Dennis's book, "Interviewing Your Daughter's Date," and we'll be happy to send it out to you as our way of saying thanks for your financial support of the ministry of FamilyLife Today.                         Well, we're going to look at this subject of sex and intimacy and how we can raise a standard of purity with our teens on tomorrow's program.  I hope you can be back with us for that.                         I want to thank our engineer on today's broadcast, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.                          FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ._____________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com        

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. The Deadly Traps of Adolescence Day 6 of 10 Guest:                        Dennis and Barbara Rainey From the series:       Dating  Bob:                If you're the parent of a teenager, you may have noticed that your son or daughter during the teenage years is paying a lot more attention to members of the opposite sex.  Barbara Rainey says you need to parent with a strategy in mind. Barbara:         What we're trying to do through these years of junior high, but particularly high school, is to help our kids see what it is they're looking for in a person to marry.  What are the standards they want?  What are the criteria that they would like to be there?  What are the values that they would like for this person to hold?  So we begin talking about those kinds of things and helping them begin to think, "What's best for me?  What does God want me to have someday in a mate?"                         We've tried to teach our kids that the best way to find out those kinds of things is through having a friendship with another person, it's not through a dating relationship where everybody is on their best behavior; you only see each other in ideal situations and circumstances, but rather we're trying to train our kids to observe one another in ordinary situations. Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  As long as your teens are noticing members of the opposite sex, make sure they're looking for the right stuff.                          And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us.  One of my all-time favorite movies is one that I know a lot of people have seen – the movie "The Princess Bride."  You know, there's a scene in that movie where Wesley and the princess are moving through the forest, and I forget whether she falls into the quicksand first, I think she does, and then he falls into the quicksand or dives in to pull her out.  But nobody saw the quicksand as they were walking through the forest.  She just, all of a sudden, fell right into that trap.                         And I was thinking about that movie when I was thinking about what we talked about last week and what we're going to be talking about this week, and that is the traps that are in the middle of the forest that our teenagers are walking through.                         In your book, "Parenting Today's Adolescent," you outline a number of traps that have been laid out for teenagers, and, by the way, Barbara Rainey is joining us this week on our program as well and, Barbara, we're glad to have you here.                         As parents, we need to be guiding our children on their journey through the dark forest because we know where the traps are.  We've been down this road before, and we can point out the spots to them to avoid so that they don't become ensnared. Dennis:          You know, it is interesting – we do know where the traps are.  We were all teenagers.  We experienced it, we experienced the peer pressure, we experienced the temptations of dating, and yet isn't it fascinating that parents can just kind of stick their head in the sand, and we can say, "Well, kids will be kids.  They can just kind of make it on their own."                         When we do that, we set our children up to get their marching orders from peers, from the world, from the culture, or from the enemy, and if I understand the scriptures correctly, we, as parents, are to form a partnership with God – Psalm 127:1 talks about the "the Lord building the house."                           And the person who ignores the Lord labors in vain, and what we've got to do, as parents, is we've got to seek the Lord, determine what we believe around these issues, and then begin to take some courageous stands, and what we're talking about here is radical, radical stuff with teenagers. You're not going to be voted in as the most popular with your teenagers as you raise them, but you know what?  You're not running a popularity contest.  You're a parent, I'm a parent, and I don't want my children to hate me, I want my children to love me but, more than that, I want our children to grow up to become God's man and God's woman, and that may mean for a period of time, whether it be a few hours, a few days, maybe a few months – that child may not like Dad very well. Bob:                Barbara, last week we talked about the trap of peer pressure that our children have to navigate around; we talked about sexual intimacy, and its inappropriateness outside of marriage; and then we began talking about the subject of dating, and you all have developed some strong convictions in this area with your children that are a little bit out of sync with the culture, but they're things you feel passionate about. Barbara:         Yes, we've decided for our kids that we want to protect them from getting involved in exclusive relationships that are going to stir up their emotions and potentially get them involved physically and sexually with the opposite sex, and we know that's not healthy.  So in order to protect our kids, we've sort of redefined dating for our family.  We've set some different standards for our kids in hopes that in the outcome our kids will be protected, and they'll be pure, and they'll be holy. Dennis:          The conviction we're talking about here is that, as parents, we have the responsibility and the authority to set the rules and boundaries for our children.                           I'm going to say that again – we have the responsibility and the authority to set the rules and boundaries for our children.                           The culture doesn't, the youth group doesn't – and I know I could get into trouble there – the youth group needs to reinforce, I believe, the standards of the family.  That's the way it was intended to work.  I think it needs to hold the standard up, call us to that, but I think it needs to be reinforcing what's being taught at home. I don't think the youth group ought to be a surrogate parent for the child.  I don't think the schools ought to be setting the boundaries or the rules for children.  I don't think they've got the responsibility.  I don't think they have the morality.  I don't think they've got the standards, and even the Christian schools aren't going to do it the way parents are.   And so who owns it?  Who's got to have it?  We do, as parents, and we have got to decide, first of all, what we believe as a family, and you may disagree with what we're talking about here on the air, and you know what?  I want to give you the freedom to disagree with us.  That's wonderful.   My boomerang question to you if you disagree with us is – what, then, do you believe?  What are your standards?  What will you uphold with your son or with your daughter … Bob:                … and what's the source of those standards? Dennis:          That's exactly right.  Is it the scripture or is it tainted by the world, and too often, I'll tell you, with us it's been one long process of kind of eradicating how we have been conformed, as a family, to the world's standards. Bob:                But you know what you're talking about – parents having the responsibility and the authority to be parents is so true.  I remember just recently, we were having a discussion with one of our children, and we said, "You know what, honey?  God has given us the assignment of deciding what you can and can't do.  It's our responsibility to determine that." Dennis:          That's a novel thought, isn't it? Bob:                We said, "We have to do what we think is right in this area."  And you could tell that this particular child didn't really like the answer but couldn't argue with it very much.  And then later I had an opportunity to overhear my child talking to a peer, and the child just repeated back what we had said, but it was kind of like, "This is what my parents think" … Dennis:          … "I don't buy it" … Bob:                … "I'm not sure I'm buying it," but at least you could tell that something had kind of sunk in. Dennis:          You know, this is another apologetic for the Bible.  We have several listeners who tune in regularly to FamilyLife Today who aren't Christians yet, and I'd just turn to you – if you haven't received Christ, and you've not called upon Him to save you from your sins and developed a relationship with God, show me a better way than this book to connect with God and to connect a family, heart-to-heart and soul-to-soul, and to navigate these traps.                           The Bible is the guidebook for helping us handle these issues.  This book is what has given us the boundaries and the rules we're talking about here, and what are you waiting for?  I mean, now is the day to cry out to Christ and have him become your Savior and Lord and get on with the process of making him the builder of your home.                         Frankly, Bob, I wonder how anybody can raise a family in this culture and help teenagers through all these traps without having a relationship with the Lord God Almighty. Bob:                Let me just say at this point – if that concept, if that thought, is something you've been struggling with or wrestling with – if you're wondering about what it means to have a relationship with Christ, we want you to call us.  We've got material we'll send you at no cost to you … Dennis:          … absolutely. Bob:                We just want to get it to you and trust that will be a help to you as you weigh out what the Bible says about how we're to be rightly related with God and with one another.                         Barbara, we talked last week about the fact that you're really encouraging your children not to date someone exclusively during the time they're in high school.  At the same time, though, you're training them for a time when they will begin to notice a particular person and begin to wonder – might this be the person that God would have for me to marry?  What are you doing in helping to prepare them for that moment? Barbara:         Well, what we're trying to do through these years of junior high, but particularly high school, is to help our kids see what it is they're looking for in a person to marry?  What are the standards they want?  What are the criteria that they would like to be there?  What are the values that they would like for this person to hold?                           So we begin talking about those kinds of things and helping them begin to think – what am I looking for?  What's best for me?  What does God want me to have some day in a mate?  And we've tried to teach our kids that the best way to find out those kinds of things is through having a friendship with another person, it's not through a dating relationship where everybody is on their best behavior, you only see each other in ideal situations and circumstances.                         But rather we're trying to train our kids to observe one another in ordinary situations so that our girls see these Christian guys – they see them at youth group, they see them at church, they see them on retreats, they see them at school, they see them with their parents, and as we do things as groups with our kids, our family, and a bunch of other families, they can watch how each other acts, how they respond, what they do, what their choices are, and that's a better indication of what that person is really like than what you see on a high-performance date. Bob:                And, Dennis, what are you encouraging them to look for as they watch these young men and young women? Dennis:          Well, I think the Scriptures are very, very clear where some of the fundamentals are.  First of all, in 2 Corinthians, chapter 6, verses 14 through the end of the chapter, Paul writes that we're not to be "unequally yoked with unbelievers."  He asked, "What do righteousness and unrighteousness have in common?  What does light and darkness have in common?"  And the answer is nothing.                           We want our children to even be able to distinguish between that young man or that young lady who profess Christ and that young man or young lady who are followers of Christ.                         Our churches today, unfortunately, are filled with many who profess to be followers of Christ but in reality they're just professing Christ, and you wonder if they even know Him at all, because their lives are not marked by the fruit that Jesus spoke of, of those who would be His true followers.                          And we want our children to have friendships with the opposite sex who are committed Christians, who are growing Christians, and who are concerned about their own spiritual walk with Christ. Bob:                And you saw this, Barbara, lived out with Ashley as she went away to college and started to look around and started to wonder about some of the young men. Barbara:         Right, and there was a sense in which, when we took Ashley to college, and even our boys, for that matter, that they automatically had some freedom that they didn't have when they were living at home because we weren't there to oversee who they spent time with and oversee who they would even date – go out with and spend time with alone.                          But we continued to coach them from a distance and encourage them, and then as we watched Ashley go through college, she began to just – by the time she was halfway through, sometime between sophomore and junior year, she just thought, you know, I don't want to mess with this dating stuff anymore.  I mean, she had learned on her own that it just wasn't worth it, and she decided she was just going to be content being single as long as God wanted her to be single, and she came to that conviction on her own.   And so for the next year and a half or so, she just hung out with groups of kids and did things with her Christian friends and, in the process of that, got to know a young man very well as a friend, and neither one of them ever thought of anything of the other beyond just a friendship.  They both viewed each other as a very good friend, and it was because they had made the decision not to pursue a romantic relationship.  And so, therefore, that was out of the question, and it never entered in. So they began this friendship and continued to be friends for two years, and then they decided at a point that maybe God wanted them to have more than a friendship and then the process went on where they eventually decided to get engaged and married.  But that marriage came out of a friendship, and it was encouraging to see God use that in her life – where she saw him in all kinds of situations – good, bad, and ugly, and otherwise – and so she really knew what she was getting.  She didn't see him only on his best behavior and only performing perfectly on dating kinds of situations, and so she knew what she was walking into. Bob:                Last week we talked about some of the restrictions that you put on children about group activities and double dating, what age, what level of maturity they need to be in – what about things like phone calls from guys or phone calls to guys or young men pursuing young women via the telephone? Barbara:         Or how about e-mail? Bob:                Oh, yeah, e-mail. Barbara:         Oh, yeah.  Well, we have really had to regulate telephone, and now we are regulating e-mail, because we've discovered that even though our kids may not have an established official relationship, an exclusive relationship with the opposite sex, they can, nonetheless, develop an emotionally dependent relationship over the phone by spending – if they have unlimited phone privileges, they could spend an hour on the phone every night with somebody and be sharing their heart, be sharing their dreams or their fears or their frustrations or difficulties that they're going through and elicit sympathy and compassion from the other person and they go, "Gosh, this person really understands me, so I can maybe tell them some more," and so these doors just open wider and wider to the soul of the other person.  So they just begin this give-and-take over the phone, and they become attached emotionally over the phone. Dennis:          And this happens a lot.  I mean, children are so needy, it seems, today, as teenagers, they latch onto each other and meet each other at this point of need.  One young man was doing this with one of our daughters, and so I told my daughter, I'm going to need to talk to him on the phone.  And she said, "Why?"  And I said, "Because he's calling frequently, and this is a relationship even though he doesn't even live in our community.  I need to talk to him."                           So I got on the phone, and he nearly fainted.  I mean, he really was scared, and we talked about that a little bit and laughed about that, and then I said, "You know, I just want you to develop a friendship with my daughter, and I really don't want you to send gifts, I don't want you to send romantic notes over here," and a few additional things, and I just kind of built some boundaries around it and asked him to honor that as her dad.                          And it wasn't long after that, Bob, that I noticed on the e-mail that we have at home that there was this note to this child, and so I read the note, and this young man that I had talked to over the phone wasn't honoring what I asked him to do.  I sent a very blunt, pointed, loving e-mail with the return button.  It was interesting – a couple of days later the young man wrote me back, and he said, "Thank you, Mr. Rainey."                         Now, let me just say a couple of things to parents at this point.  When you step in like this, don't assume that just because the young man or the young lady agrees with you, that they're on your side.  Don't just roll off the watermelon truck like a watermelon. Barbara:         "Oh, I've done that one.  It's taken care of now." Dennis:          Oh, yeah, Dad's done a good one to that.  We've headed that one off at the pass.  Wrong.  Huh-uh, Dad has got to realize you've got a young man who likes your daughter, and you've got to track, and you've got stay involved, and you've got to watch what's happening, and you know what?  At Valentine's Day there was a stuffed animal in the mail.  Hello.                         So, you know, as parents, you've just got to keep on repeating yourself and teaching and hanging in there and staying involved in your children's lives and resist the temptation to back out of there and to not stay involved and to give them too much freedom before they need it. Bob:                What rules have you come up with for telephone or for e-mail use?  What are your standards in that area? Barbara:         Well, our girls are not allowed to call boys, first of all.  We really have tried to teach them that guys are the ones who need to take the initiative in a relationship.  So the first rule for our girls is they don't call boys – any way for any reason.                           And then the next rule is that they just get so many minutes a night on the phone, and our rules are after dinner and after homework is done.  So, generally, unless they're trying to get their homework done, and they've got to get the answer, or they didn't get the assignment, all that kind of stuff – there are always exceptions on homework kinds of issues – but, primarily, if they're going to call somebody just to visit and chat and just kill some time on the phone, that doesn't occur until after dinner and after all homework is done, and that's usually, in our family, at least 7:00 at night before that happens.                          And then they have to be off the phone by 9.  So there's kind of a two-hour window, and with multiple people in the home wanting to use the phone, they can't have a very long chunk of time.  We just really don't let our girls chat on the phone endlessly for hours on end.  It just isn't productive.  Dennis:          And the Internet would be approached in a similar fashion.  You wouldn't let your child spend endless hours on the Internet in chat rooms with the opposite sex, nor would you send back and forth a number of e-mails each day or each week.                           I think it needs to be limited, and basically what you're doing is you're creating some boundaries to protect your child's heart from forming exclusive, romantic dating relationships.  That's the conviction.  That's the thing you're protecting with your son or with your daughter. Bob:                You talk about parents being right in the middle of things, and our listeners have heard you talk about being right in the middle of things as you have interviewed any young man who has come as a suitor for your daughter before you've let them even go out on a double or a triple date or go to the prom together, right? Dennis:          Yeah, I've got about eight questions that I ask in an interview of a young man, and these eight questions are now being replicated in hundreds of dads' lives across the country.                           In fact, Bob, I just talked to a dad in San Marcos, Texas – in fact, it's the brother of Mike McCoy, who was on the broadcast one time – Brian McCoy just interviewed his daughter Megan's first date, and it was so funny, because Brian said, "I sat behind my desk, and I wanted the most intimidating situation I could get.  I made him sit at the other side," and then he said, "I kind of caved in a little bit and asked him, 'Are you nervous?'" And the young man said "Yeah," and he said, "Well, I am, too.  We're going to get through this together."                          And they went through the interview, and I asked Brian at the end of the time, I said, "Tell me this – when you were driving home to see your daughter, did you feel like you had been a man's man in protecting your daughter?"  And he said, "Absolutely, absolutely."  And you know what?  His daughter thoroughly enjoyed the fact that her dad would look out for her by interviewing a young man who had come a-calling at the door. Bob:                You have recently written a book on this subject, a guidebook for dads to help all of us know how we can engage in that process – the questions we can ask, how we can interview a young man who wants to take our daughter out on a date and, in fact, this month we're making copies of that book available to any of our listeners who can help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today with a donation of any amount.                         We're a listener-supported ministry, and so those donations are critical for the ongoing work of FamilyLife Today, and we want to invite any of our listeners who can help with a donation to either call 1-800-FLTODAY, or go online at FamilyLife.com.  Make a donation of any amount, and when you do, if you're calling, just ask for a copy of Dennis's new book, "Interviewing Your Daughter's Date," or if you're filling out the donation form online, just write the word "date" in the keycode box that you see there, and we'll be happy to send you a copy of this book as a way of saying thank you for your financial support of the ministry.  We do appreciate your partnership with us here on FamilyLife Today.                         And when you get in touch with us, let me also encourage you to consider getting a copy of the book, "Parenting Today's Adolescent," where you also address this same subject along with a number of other issues facing us as parents of teenagers.  You help us be ready for the kinds of issues that are going to come up during the teen years.                           In fact, I think the perfect time to be reading a book like "Parenting Today's Adolescent," is when your son or daughter is still 8 or 9 or 10 or 11 or 12 years old, in those years that you've referred to as "the golden years," because that's when we need to develop convictions and be proactive and be alert and be ready to face the challenges that are going to come during the teen years.                         And, of course, we've got copies of the book, "Parenting Today's Adolescent," in our FamilyLife Resource Center and listeners who don't have a copy and who are interested in getting one can go to our website, FamilyLife.com.  If you click the red button that you see right in the middle of the screen that says "Go," that will take you to the area of the site where you can get more information about this book.                         You can order it online, if you'd like, or you can call us at 1-800-FLTODAY and ask for a copy of the book.  Again, the website is FamilyLife.com, and the toll-free number is 1-800-358-6329.  Someone on our team can make arrangements to have a copy of the book, "Parenting Today's Adolescent" sent out to you and I'll just mention again, if you're able to help with a donation, in addition to that, we'll be happy to send you a copy of Dennis's book, "Interviewing Your Daughter's Date."  We do appreciate your financial support of this ministry.   Well, tomorrow we're going to talk about another trap that faces our otnrs today.  In fact, this is not just a trap for teens but a trap that all of us are facing – it's the way media is influencing our lives.  And we're not saying that because you have access to media it's necessarily a trap, but it could be.  We'll talk about that tomorrow.  I hope you can be back with us for that.  I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  Have a great day, and we'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. _______________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com                 

  FUll Transcript Below Show Summary: Serina Gilbert is always coming across great stories and this one from Erin and Bob at White Cane Coffee is as good as it gets. Taking a Bad Day and transferring that into the launching of a new company, Erin and Bob, a daughter and son team, tell us why they wanted to start White Cane Coffee and how they want to impact others with the opportunity through the affiliate program coming soon. You can check out the line of White Cane Coffee on the web at www.WhiteCaneCoffee.comand find the coffee that best suits you.  Here is an overview of White Cane Coffee taken from the web: Hi, I’m Erin from White Cane Coffee. I, with the help of my parents, started this company to provide great coffee to our customers and provide self sustaining jobs for people with disabilities. We have a variety of coffee roasts for your enjoyment. Colombian Supremo is sweet, smooth and bold. We also have a Colombian Supremo Decaf which gives you all the same great flavor without all the caffeine. But, if you want that caffeine boost, try our High Octane. Our Donut Shop blend gives you that fruity, clean taste you expect to find in your neighborhood pastry shop. If you like a bold, earthy cup of joe, try our Dark Roast, it is roasted from 100% Indonesian Sumatra beans. French Roast gives you that rich, robust flavor you may crave. Or if you prefer a Breakfast Blend, ours will give you that tangy, fruity flavor you will love. All of our beans are organic and micro-roasted, using hot air to give you the very best quality and flavor. There is nothing worse than waking up in the morning and discovering you are out of coffee. (I shudder at the mere thought of it). So, that is why we offer a subscription service so you can receive your favorite White Cane Coffee right on your door step every month. If you make your subscription for a full year, we will cover your shipping. You will also notice that, other than our sample box, (which I highly recommend so you find the right blend for you), our coffee arrives in 1 pound and 2 pound packages. You will actually get what you expect you are paying for. Now a bit about White Cane Coffee, and why we standout. The reason I wanted to start White Cane Coffee is because, number one, “Who doesn’t love coffee.”. But most importantly, my brothers and I are all on the Autism Spectrum and I am also blind. We have found that finding jobs extremely difficult. In our experience, employers didn’t want to provide full time or a living wages to handicapped individuals. Or because of bullying on the job site staying at some jobs unbearable. So, at 22, I started to ask, “When you have the right people around you, the question stops being, What can I do? but What’s stopping me”. So here we are. Our goal is to provide a welcoming environment to all people and provide jobs to the handicapped community at a living wage. Most of all, we want to provide you with a Great cup of coffee! Check out this episode of Job Insights and send us your feedback and topic suggestions by email. Follow the Job Insights team on twitter @JobInsightsVIP Job Insights is part of the Blind Abilities network. Contact: Thank you for listening! You can follow us on Twitter @BlindAbilities On the web at www.BlindAbilities.com Send us an email Get the Free Blind Abilities App on the App Store. Full Transcript   Jeff Thompson: I saw one on there that was called the high octane.   Bob: Yeah, that one's double the caffeine, double have fun.   Serena Gilbert: Do not ship that one to Jeff.   Jeff Thompson: Job Insights, a podcast to help you carve out your career pathway and enhance the opportunities for gainful employment.   Serena Gilbert: I saw a post from White Cane Coffee, and I was intrigued because the name, I think it's like a super awesome name for a company.   Jeff Thompson: Learn about resources for training, education and employment opportunities.   Erin: I swear, the excitement for me is just constant, because again, I'm just branching out on new things, I'm meeting with people in the community, I'm on podcast now. There's always new things that we're doing, so one part of it may not be as flashy or exciting as it was, but there's a new part that's brand sparkling new and just like, yeah.   Jeff Thompson: You will hear from people seeking careers, employment from professionals in the educational field, teachers, and innovators in this ever changing world of technology.   Speaker 5:          That's an easy one to remember, because everyone knows the white game, everyone loves coffee and.com there you go.   Jeff Thompson: For more podcasts with the blindness perspective, check us out on the web at www.blindabilities.com, on Twitter @BlindAbilities and download our free Blind Abilities App from the APP store, that's two words, blind abilities. Now please welcome Serena Gilbert and Jeff Thompson with Job Insights.   Erin: If they do find work, it's for absolutely a pittance amount of money, so we're just like, let's employ them and pay them fairly.   Jeff Thompson: Welcome to the Job Insights. I'm Jeff Thompson and with me is Serena Gilbert. How are you doing Serena?   Serena Gilbert: I am doing absolutely fantastic, Jeff, how are you?   Jeff Thompson: I'm doing good. You came across a great company on Facebook and invited them on. Tell us a little bit about it.   Serena Gilbert: I was scrolling through Facebook like I do for, I don't even know how many hours a day at this point, and I saw a post from White Cane Coffee and I was intrigued because, well of course, first the name, I think it's like a super awesome name for a company, and secondly, what their mission was and how they started a company to be able to have nice jobs for individuals with disabilities to be able to be a little bit more self-sustaining. I really, really liked that idea.   Jeff Thompson: Entrepreneurship right there. I like it.   Serena Gilbert: Of course.   Jeff Thompson: Well we got them here in the studio. Let's welcome. Erin and Bob from White Cane Coffee. How are you guys doing?   Erin: We're doing well.   Bob: Doing wonderful, glad to be here.   Jeff Thompson: Well, thank you for taking the time, coming on to Job Insights. It's exciting, it's exciting. I read Erin's article on Facebook and yeah, I really liked it. Bang, here we are. Let's start it out by what got you started with White Cane Coffee?   Erin: Well, honestly it started with me having a bad day, and so just it's hard when you're disabled and trying to find a job and just, it's frustrating. When I'm frustrated like that, me and my dad will play games, like we'll create [inaudible] or in this case we were just like, if you had x amount of money, what would you do to grow it? And so one day we started with a coffee company and then we just kept talking about this coffee company just like, well, what would you do with this, or what would you do with that? It's just like, well, why not hire people with disabilities for one thing, and just it kept growing until eventually were just like, Oh, we're actually doing this, aren't we?   Bob: Yeah. That was about six months ago, and so then it was just doing research, figuring out exactly what it was going to take to create this coffee company. And so that meant we needed an accountant, we needed an attorney, we needed to figure out how we were going to get our coffee roasted, packaging, getting the shipping, getting the website up. It became a creature unto itself, but the best part was we had fun doing it and right now, I mean, the response we're getting, even from our local community, they love our coffee. We did a couple of hundred sample bags or whatever, and we just gave them out to everyone, and everyone said, "Oh isn't that [inaudible]."   Bob: And then they called back and said, "You know, that was really good coffee. I need more."   Bob: Now every time we turn around, somebody's calling us up saying, "We need more." That's our whole thing is getting the word out, letting people know we have great coffee.   Serena Gilbert: That's fantastic, Bob, and I know you have kind of a unique business model. Do you want to share with us some of the services that customers can receive from your coffee business?   Bob: The key is, they can go online at whitecanecoffee.com, and one of the first things that shows up, the first item there is a sample box because people always say, what is your best coffee? Well, they're all great, so it all depends on the customer. We suggest to them, order up the sample box, try them all, find the one that fits your likes, then order whether it's subscription or it's a [inaudible], whatever the case may be, but we want them to find the one they like the best. That's really our model, that in a nutshell is our coffee is roasted fresh for them. Most coffees that you get, say at a grocery store and some of the big names that I'm not going to mention but we all know who they are, those sit in a warehouse for up to a year before they even get to the store. We like our coffee what, how old Erin?   Erin: About a week fresh, so from the time we package that to the point where it gets to your door, it's only about a week old, so you know you're going to get the freshest cup of coffee that you are able to have.   Jeff Thompson: I couldn't help it but I saw one on there that was called high octane.   Bob: Yeah, that one's double the caffeine, double the fun.   Serena Gilbert: Do not ship that one too Jeff, Oh my goodness.   Bob: Don't ship that one. That one is actually very popular, especially the people work like third shifts or you know-   Erin: The mid night hour [inaudible].   Bob: They're the ones who order it and they go, the flavor's great [inaudible] and we're awake. And I said, well that's pretty much what it does.   Erin: [inaudible] through testing.   Bob: Yeah, that one was hard.   Jeff Thompson: You mentioned earlier you had a tough three weeks of testing coffee and that must've been fun, because none of these go out without you guys knowing what exactly you're selling.   Erin: Exactly.   Bob: Exactly, that's I mean each time ... We roaster whatever, we sample it. It doesn't just like oh it's good enough. The good enough is never good enough. The product has to be right every time it goes out, because that's our reputation that's on the line here. We're not some huge mega corporation where you get a bad pot of coffee and lose a customer they go, eh. With us, that doesn't work that way. Every customer needs to be happy.   Jeff Thompson: And they can find this at whitecanecoffee.com.   Bob: Correct.   Erin: Yup.   Jeff Thompson: That's an easy one to remember, because knows the White Cane, everyone loves coffee and .com, there you go.   Bob: That was even our reasoning of naming the company and with our logo, with the young girl, with the white cane, we want people to know exactly who we are, when they see our logo, they know.   Erin: It was [inaudible] a blind disabled person or blind disabled people, people and just disabled people, and people, people.   Jeff Thompson: People, people. I like it.   Bob: But that was it. We want people to know exactly who we are and what we're about, the transparency, I guess is the new buzzword that everybody uses, but that is important. They need to know who we are. When they go on our Facebook page or whatever, and even once the about page is done finally on the website, there's a picture of Erin right there. She is the face of our company, this is her baby. There's no big corporate board room back here where everybody's hanging out.   Jeff Thompson: Yeah.   Erin: Home grown.   Jeff Thompson: It's amazing the way you can start by just having a bad day, right Erin?   Erin: I know.   Bob: Isn't that how all the great companies have started though, is somebody sitting around saying there's a problem and then eventually somebody says, Hey, I think we can fix it.   Jeff Thompson: Solution based, there you go.   Serena Gilbert: Well, I understand that you guys employ a few individuals that also have disabilities. Is that correct?   Erin: Yes.   Bob: Yes.   Serena Gilbert: Tell us a little bit about what made you design your business in that way?   Erin: Well, if I was having trouble finding a job for my disability, and there is a huge population in our town of disabled people on who just cannot find work, or if they do find work, it's for absolutely a pittance amount of money, so we're just like, let's employ them and pay them fairly.   Jeff Thompson: I like that.   Bob: We're all about living wage. People sit in and say, well, like I said, you know, if you have a sheltered workshop, there's no bottom to how much they can pay their employees. Like ours, we have one here nearby and they pay about a dollar, dollar 10 an hour is what they pay their employees. You can't live on that. And second of all, with social security at 750 a month, I think it is, you can't live on that. I mean, you can't pay rent, you can't pay utilities, you can't do anything. They're all into survival mode. Well, there's more to life than just survival mode. We want people to have a decent wage, so at the end of the week they can pay all their bills and you know what, there's still some money left-over to do what they want to do and have some fun.   Jeff Thompson: And buy some coffee.   Bob: Buy more.   Jeff Thompson: There you go.   Serena Gilbert: Very smart business model there.   Bob: That's what it really was all about. Not only have we found work for Erin and her brothers now, but we're finding work for people who are just like her because that's what you're supposed to do.   Jeff Thompson: Erin, on your picture on Facebook, you do have a cane here wearing sunglasses, so you are blind?   Erin: Correct. I only have 5% of my vision left.   Jeff Thompson: When did that start?   Erin: I started to lose my vision when I was about 15.   Jeff Thompson: Did it affect you in how you did your education at school?   Erin: Yes actually. I had to, with assistance, essence basically people reading me the questions on the test. I graduated high school at 15.   Serena Gilbert: Look at that, wow. That's not an easy accomplishment. That's awesome, Erin.   Erin: Thank you.   Serena Gilbert: Yeah, I could not imagine.   Jeff Thompson: That's awesome for anybody.   Serena Gilbert: Yeah, it's a big deal.   Jeff Thompson: Wow.   Bob: Well, Erin was in the gifted program when she was in school, and so it wasn't much of a challenge for the school just to allow her basically to test out. It was interesting and it's like, okay, here's all the subjects you can pass everything, you can graduate and she did.   Erin: Through the first try and they're just like, yeah, okay, that's fair.   Bob: She had her diploma and we moved on.   Jeff Thompson: There you go. You might want to give that college thing a try, that might be a piece of cake too.   Bob: Someday.   Jeff Thompson: There you go.   Bob: But right now, like I said, we're challenged in what we're doing and I think right now as this company is growing here, this is going to keep her busy for many, many years to come.   Jeff Thompson: That's great.   Erin: We're hoping the best for this.   Jeff Thompson: It's nice to have a challenge, and to challenge yourself and that's what we all kind of look for, is to accept the challenges and it keeps you waking up in the morning with a good cup of coffee, that helps too, right Serena?   Serena Gilbert: Of course. Now if you guys start shipping out hot chocolate I'm in, because I'm not much of a coffee drinker because it makes me completely stay up for days. But some hot chocolate, I'll be totally about it.   Erin: [inaudible] considered it yet, but maybe in the distant future, we're thinking maybe hot chocolate or teas or something like that, but for right now we're strictly coffee.   Jeff Thompson: Yeah, I'm sorry, I didn't know she wasn't a coffee drinker. I would've got someone else to come on the podcast, sorry Bob.   Serena Gilbert: Oh Jeff.   Bob: On of the other things we are trying to do here is, hopefully within the next week is we are setting up affiliate programs so that other people who are blind and disabled all across the country can also be a part of this company, because we would love to see White Cane Coffee basically in every town, business, home across this nation. I want people, no matter where they go, they're going to see White Cane Coffee on Facebook, on Instagram, Twitter. That's the name of this game here. We have a great product, and we want to be able to share that with everyone in the United States, and we also want people to be able to earn a living as affiliates across the country, because let's face it, people like Erin and you guys or whatever all over, and so that the name of the game is let's create as many jobs as we can.   Bob: People who will be able to sign up as affiliates on the website and what will happen is, they'll be given basically their own code that'll go on the end of whitecanecoffee.com, it'll be like, let's say in Jeff's case it might be whitecanecoffee.com/Jeff. Now Jeff's going to sit there and say, hey, all my friends, guess what? White Cane Coffee, great stuff, give it a shot. Here's their email address, and it'll be that one there. Any sales that those make, Jeff would then get a commission on. Does that make sense?   Serena Gilbert: Yeah. I think that's awesome that you're building that, because a lot of the big company, like obviously Amazon, they have an affiliate program, target all kinds of places. I think it's great that you're seizing that opportunity to allow some of our audience to be able to have some fairly passive income coming in with being able to share their affiliate links and things like that. That's very unique to small businesses and I like that.   Bob: Yeah, because we all have our own networks. I have my friends who are on Facebook and on Twitter and everything like that. You have your friends and acquaintances and business contacts on yours and Jeff does. We all have these little things, that's why they call it the web. The more that web over it goes on each other, then guess what? That's when the company grows.   Erin: This way, we're not just helping our towns own disabled group, we're helping other towns and the State disabled groups.   Jeff Thompson: Oh, that's great. I like that idea. It gives me something, you know, I never wanted to do an Avon, Mary Kay or stuff like that, Tupperware. Now I can do White Cane Coffee.   Serena Gilbert: But just this morning, Jeff, you were giving me some makeup tips, so I don't know.   Bob: That's one of the things that people always, you know, because we've talked to a few people on the go, well, what's it going to cost us? It doesn't cost you anything. I mean that's the whole key. We'd like you to try our coffee, but if you don't drink coffee or whatever, that doesn't stop you from-   Erin: Getting the word out there.   Bob: And being involved.   Jeff Thompson: Awesome. I like it.   Serena Gilbert: I for one, when you guys get that up and running, please send us a link or message in that group chat that we have going, because I will definitely spread the word for you guys. I think that's awesome what you're doing.   Bob: Absolutely. We'll make sure you guys get the invite to it and that, and that's the goal, we want as many people as we can. If 10,000 people sign up as affiliates, fantastic. Because that's 10,000 people who are going to try to do something and that's what we want to see.   Jeff Thompson: I like it. Let's check it out, whitecanecofee.com, you go there, it says buy coffee. I clicked on buy coffee and I had eight choices. The first one was the package box and for $20, no tax, no shipping, it's delivered to your door. You can sample all the flavors, and the flavors come in, Colombian Supremo, Colombian Supremo Decaf, Breakfast Blend, Dark Roast, Doughnut Shop, French Roast, and my future favorite, High Octane. You have a choice of 16 ounces or 32 ounces. 16 ounces is going to run you $14.99, and 32 ounces is discounted a little bit at $27.99 and you can opt for a one month, three month, six month up to a 12 month subscription. That means it will be delivered to your door once a month and you don't have to lift a finger.   Jeff Thompson: An incentive to do the 12 months subscription is there's no shipping costs, thus allowing you to save $7 and 50 cents every month just by subscribing to a 12 month. That's quite a savings. At $14.99 I think it's very affordable. When you click on one of these flavors such as the High Octane, it'll take you to the page and they'll do a write up on what that flavor is all about, probably high octane I imagine, or the French Roast, or the Breakfast Blend. They'll all have a description there. Check out the about page, because that talk about Erin and her story and what the company's all about and it'll have some of this information then it just relayed to you. With that in mind, let's get back to the show.   Jeff Thompson: Erin, I want to go back to something, do you use an iPhone?   Erin: I use an iPad, it seems to work best for me.   Jeff Thompson: Oh, that's good. With voiceover.   Erin: Oh my gosh, yes.   Jeff Thompson: There you go.   Erin: So much voiceover.   Jeff Thompson: Yeah, we're all about tech and we love our voiceover stuff with the iPhones. Not knocking any of the android stuff, it's coming along.   Erin: Yeah, but Apple just seems to have, it has everything that you need for that.   Jeff Thompson: Yep, they're doing good, and so are you guys whitecanecoffee.com, everyone go check it out, go sign up, get the sample pack, you can figure it out which one you like best and then place your orders. It comes once a month, right to your doorstep, and if you order annually, they knock off the price of shipping so you can save a little money there. Erin, Bob, I want to thank you for taking the time to coming onto Job Insights and sharing with us your, well Erin's bad day innovation, her entrepreneurship and starting this company. Serena, do you have anything else you want to ask?   Serena Gilbert: Just do us a favor and tell our audience where they can find you on Facebook and Twitter and Instagram.   Erin: You can find us at White Cane Coffee on Facebook. You can find this on White Cane Coffee on Tumbler, weirdly enough.   Bob: We're setting up our Twitter and Instagram pages because Instagram and Facebook kind of work hand in hand together now, so when you advertise on one, you advertise on both. It's always funny, we always say, we need to get some of the big influencers on Instagram or something of that nature, one of the Kardashians. [inaudible] say, hey White Cane Coffee, and things would go insane at that point, but no, the goal is we're getting the word out and we're really happy that you guys contacted us and wanted to hear what we're doing.   Serena Gilbert: We absolutely love sharing what individuals in our community are doing, especially when it comes to employment and being able to live a little bit more independently, so we were happy to have you on.   Erin: We were absolutely ecstatic to be on.   Serena Gilbert: Do you guys have any questions or any additional information that you'd like to share?   Bob: We look forward to seeing your podcast, because you're on YouTube, is that correct?   Jeff Thompson: We're on YouTube, we're on Apple, you can download the Blind Abilities App right to your iPad and iPhone, any device like that. Pod Catchers just search for Blind Abilities, that's two words, Blind Abilities.   Serena Gilbert: He's so trained over there. Oh my goodness.   Bob: Sounds great, we look forward to that. Keep in touch with us, we like talking to people who are in the community, kind of how we find out what's going on. We hope that these conversations will go on for long time in the future.   Serena Gilbert: Of course.   Bob: It's funny, since we went on Facebook and started doing this, you guys just kind of caught our attention. It's like okay let's do this and-   Erin: Nothing ventured, nothing gained.   Bob: Absolutely.   Serena Gilbert: Next step is shark tank, right?   Bob: Oh God no. No, never Shark Tank. Venture capitalists are about making money, we're about making a difference and so that would probably never happen.   Jeff Thompson: I like that line. Put it on my tee shirt, or my coffee cup. There you go.   Serena Gilbert: I will definitely be checking out your guys' website because I do have coffee drinkers in my family, so I might even show it to my husband, because we have a Keurig, but we have the little thing where you can put the coffee beans or in it and trick it.   Jeff Thompson: Well, Serena, if you check out the website, they do have a coffee that has low caffeine.   Serena Gilbert: Even for you, that would be too much caffeine.   Bob: I'll tell you, if your husband likes that robust flavor, get the Colombian. If you like a coffee that's real smooth, you don't need milk or anything, look at the Dark Roast, it is so smooth. There's no bitterness to it.   Serena Gilbert: Oh Wow.   Jeff Thompson: Well I think I'm going to try the sample because I've always liked looking for that coffee that it tastes good and it does everything that you want it to do in the flavor without having to add the cream or this or the other thing. I just want that perfect blend.   Erin: Yeah. We hope you like it.   Bob: Yeah, get online after you're done with us, just go right to White Cane Coffee, you order tonight, they'll be out in the mail in the morning.   Serena Gilbert: Oh Wow. That's fast.   Jeff Thompson: There we go. The UPS or FedEx, one of those businesses know where you live, right?   Bob: Absolutely. They're here up quite a bit, picking up boxes.   Jeff Thompson: That's cool.   Bob: They're happy, it keeps them working I guess.   Serena Gilbert: Exactly.   Erin: [inaudible] when we first started, they were so confused.   Bob: They really were, but now they're just kind of used to it, they bring the truck up and get the boxes.   Jeff Thompson: Is the excitement gone? I mean, usually if the UPS truck pulls up in front of my place, I'm like, oh.   Serena Gilbert: What did I order?   Jeff Thompson: Yeah, I'm like rubbing my hands together.   Erin: I swear, the excitement for me is just constant because again, I'm branching out on new things, I'm meeting with people in the community, I'm on podcast now. There's always new things that we're doing in the company to sort of get the word out, so yeah, it's just like, okay, so one part of it may not be as flashy or exciting as it was, but there's a new part that's brand sparkling new and just like yeah.   Bob: Like in November, the Pennsylvania National Federation for the Blind has their convention in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Well now they're talking about having Erin come and speak at the convention.   Jeff Thompson: Oh, that's great.   Serena Gilbert: That's huge. That's awesome.   Bob: I wish she can make a difference. We really are looking forward to this, it's amazing. Everyone in this country drinks coffee, 90% of the people truly do have coffee first thing in the morning, that's what starts their day.   Jeff Thompson: Take notes Serena.   Erin: It's something that's so ingrained into our society, that coffee [inaudible] to help people with disabilities was just a no brainer. How many times have you heard in cartoons like, don't talk to me before I've had my coffee. I mean, when I was a little kid, on Christmas, we weren't allowed to open our presents until mum and dad had their coffee. I learned how to make coffee at age eight.   Bob: No coffee, no presents.   Erin: Just like brothers have already sorted out the gifts, specialized mugs in each hand they come downstairs, here you go, let's open presents.   Jeff Thompson: There you go, and now you can do it with White Cane Coffee.   Serena Gilbert: Exactly.   Bob: Exactly. It's fun for everyone. I like seeing Erin excited. I like seeing her brother's excited. I like seeing the other workers excited because when they come to work, they're excited to be useful and to have a purpose. You know, that when they're here that they're welcome here, and we adapt to their needs instead of like a lot of jobs you have to adapt to the company. We kind of do it the other way around, we adapt to each person individually. What are their needs, what's going to make their experience here working better for them because we found if they're happy, they're much more productive, and so it's a win-win on both sides   Erin: This may sound odd, but with some people's disabilities they have such strengths and others are like one of our workers, even though they are very autistic, they are also very hyper focused and are perfectionists, so we know every label is going to be on perfectly just like, alright, you do you man.   Jeff Thompson: There you go. I like that where you're creating opportunities and not limiting them but enhancing their opportunities by embracing their set of skills that they have.   Bob: Oh exactly.   Erin: Exactly, and once you have the right people around you, it really is, you can do almost anything with it.   Jeff Thompson: I like what you're doing Erin.   Bob: We don't sit around and say, oh, what can I do? It's more of what's stopping us from moving on, changing things and making things better for everyone involved, and coffee is that venue that is allowing us to do that.   Jeff Thompson: Oh, I tip my cup to you guys.   Serena Gilbert: We really appreciate your time.   Bob: Absolutely.   Jeff Thompson: Thanks Bob. Thanks Erin.   Bob: You all have a good evening.   Erin: It was great talking to you guys.   Jeff Thompson: All right.     [Music]  [Transition noise]  -When we share -What we see -Through each other's eyes...   [Multiple voices overlapping, in unison, to form a single sentence]   ...We can then begin to bridge the gap between the limited expectations, and the realities of Blind Abilities.   Jeff Thompson: For more podcasts with the blindness perspective: Check us out on the web at www.BlindAbilities.com On Twitter @BlindAbilities Download our app from the App store:  'Blind Abilities'; that's two words. Or send us an e-mail at: info@blindabilities.com Thanks for listening.  

Debbie Ziegler's daughter, Brittany Maynard at the age of 29 was diagnosed with a terminal brain tumor she chose to end her life. Her story was controversial and painful. Debbie shares her daughter's journey in life and how she ended hers. Photo credit: Simon & Schuster Contact Debbie Ziegler website – Get a copy of her book, Wild and Precious Life Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Transcript Dr. Bob: Well, Debbie, thank you. I can't tell you how much I appreciate you coming and spending time. We've had a number of conversations over, since we met, which was probably a year or two ago. Debbie Ziegler: Yes. Dr. Bob: I think each time we talk, we get a little bit deeper into the conversations, and I think we both are very aligned in what we're trying to do with our time here. Debbie Ziegler: Absolutely. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I would love to use this time for you to share a bit about Brittany so people can really know who Brittany was. I think a lot of people know the name, Brittany Maynard. It's become, in many areas, a household name, and I think certainly in California, and a lot of people think of her as groundbreaking, but they don't really know Brittany. Hopefully, after this, after people hear this, they'll get your book, and they'll learn a lot about Brittany and about her journey, but I'm hoping that you can share a bit about that, because I think it would be really valuable for people to understand who Brittany was, what she did, and then what you've been doing to carry on her legacy and honor her, so ... Debbie Ziegler: Well, thank you for asking me to speak with you today. Brittany is remembered for the last act of her life, and those last minutes of her life are relived over and over again and spoken of over and over again. She knew they would be, and before she died, she asked me ... She said, "Mama, make sure people remember me for how I lived as much as they remember me for how I died." That is something that I try to honor her by doing, and one of the ways that I honored her was by writing a book about the way she lived, and I titled it Wild and Precious Life because Brittany did live a wild and precious life. She was very much in love with this world, and when she was terminally ill, she would say to me, "The world is so beautiful, Mom. It's just so beautiful, and I'm going to miss it so much." She did not want to leave this earth. Nothing inside of her desired that, but the fact was that she was terminally ill, and she had a terrible and gigantic brain tumor that had been growing for over a decade. When I look back at Brittany's life, I try to focus on the brain and how marvelous and plastic it was to tolerate the growth of a tumor for 10 years and to, as that tumor slowly grew, her plastic, resilient brain transferred function. I try to remember that. Even when I first find out she was sick, she had already lived a miracle, and it's important to focus that. The miracle I wanted to happen, which, of course, was that she wouldn't die, didn't happen, but a miracle had already happened in that she had lived 10 years with the brain tumor growing. Dr. Bob: What a beautiful awareness and a gift. It's so interesting because many people don't have that. Many people have a, are diagnosed relatively quickly after something that starts developing because it's created issues that can't be ignored or- Debbie Ziegler: Yes. Dr. Bob: ... their plasticity won't happen, and so everything changes from that moment on. Right? They're thrown into the health care system and start having procedures and treatments, and so ... You know that this is a fatal illness, even when it's caught early. Debbie Ziegler: Yes. I think that one thing that Brittany and I talked about quite frequently is that every person's disease is different, and it annoyed Brittany that people felt that just because their uncle, cousin, niece, had had a brain tumor, that they somehow knew her journey. The same thing happens to, I think, cancer patients with any kind of cancer. We have to remember, as we interface and speak with and try to love these people through their illness, that every body's illness is different. Just as our bodies are different, our cancer is different. It can be very, very frustrating for a patient to be told, "Oh, well, my aunt did this," or, "My uncle did that." Let's just try to take each patient alone and single and look at their disease and look at their illness separately and try not to bring in all these other judgments based on other stories. Brittany's illness, she had been living with, and the tumor had been growing very slowly, and so that allowed for that plasticity. If a tumor grows in your brain in a quick fashion, a much, much smaller tumor could kill you. Dr. Bob: Yeah, or in a different position, a different location in the brain. Debbie Ziegler: This would be the same for other cancers. It would be the same for people with any kind of cancer. Depending on how that cancer, how that tumor's growing, it takes its own cruel path, and so one of my big hot buttons is that we stop and remember that everybody's journey is different, and everybody faces their illness in a different way. The way my daughter faced it was by getting all the information she could get. She was almost an encyclopedia about brain tumors, about the types of cells that make brain tumors, about how those tumors progress in people of certain age groups. She read white papers. She had a good education, so she was lucky enough to be able to read that kind of paper that might put some of us to sleep. She was able to read it and really extract information for it, so when she entered a doctor's office, she was speaking their terminology, and she was very well read, so that is a different kind of patient. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I would imagine that for certain doctors, that would be a little bit ... I'm not sure if "intimidating" would be the right word, but they're not used to that. They're used to having, to doing the education and kind of doing it on their own terms. Debbie Ziegler: Yes. There is, and there is this paternal mold of medicine that's been in the United States for a long time where, for many years, we looked at our doctors as sort of an extra father in the family that what he said was how it went. We had this paternal model where we never even asked the doctor, "Well, what are my options," and we didn't have the internet, and we didn't have this quick way to get information. In the case of my daughter, she was actually checking out medical documents online and reading medical documents. We're in a different place, and we're in a different time. We're struggling with this old, paternal medical model, which isn't working for us well anymore. Then you add on top of that that if a doctor got a scan of Brittany's brain, one doctor said, "I expected her to be wheeled in on a gurney and unable to speak," because the tumor was in that portion of her brain that allows you to speak and vocalize, and it looked like that must, those skill sets must be gone, but because it had grown so slowly, those skillsets had moved, and she was able not only to speak but to speak very articulately. I do think it was a shock, and a little bit more difficult to deal with, with a patient who's very well read and very outspoken. My daughter was, even from a young child, a very purpose-filled person. I remember they observed her playing when they were analyzing whether she was ready for kindergarten, and they wrote in the report that her playing was purpose-filled. That came back to me as I watched her negotiate her illness, and I thought, "Okay, well, those things that made it difficult to mother her, that purpose-filled, stubborn, willful sort of way, was a wonderful asset to her when she was ill and needed to navigate her illness." People ask me all the time about how Brittany could make a decision like this so confidently, and my answer is that she had the innate personality to question and to, and she also had the educational background that she could absorb the scientific information and accept it on a factual level. The emotional part, matching her ability to be emotionally strong, matching her background to be able to understand the information that is terribly frightening, and which, honestly, I mean, I taught science. I couldn't read it in the beginning. It took me about a month to be able to read about brain tumors. I just couldn't do it. [inaudible 00:11:20]. Dr. Bob: You mean you couldn't do it because it was too difficult emotionally or because it was too, the information was too- Debbie Ziegler: It was emotionally. Dr. Bob: Okay. Debbie Ziegler: I also have a science background, and I taught science, so I could read it, and I could interpret it, but as her mother, having just heard that she had a terminal diagnosis with a brain tumor, emotionally I was unable to read about brain tumors for well over a month. This is a part of what happens to the family of the terminally ill person. Sometimes, they're knocked back into a period of denial where they're unable to look at the truths; they're unable to look at the facts. I think that makes it more difficult in some ways, and yet I'm told by psychologists that denial is something that helps us deal with crisis and eventually move on, as long as we move through it and don't stay in that place. I can testify to the strength of denial, and I can certainly say, from my experience, that it is very important to overcome it if you're going to help your loved one. It's something you must battle through and get to the other side. Dr. Bob: I think that's so powerful, and, I guess, recognizing that it's happening, being open to recognizing that, and that it's normal, and you don't have to rush yourself through it, because it is a process, but if you're not aware that that's what's happening, then it seems like it's the reality and it's appropriate, and would be much more difficult to get through it and be of support as you ultimately want and need to be, so ... Debbie Ziegler: Particularly if the patient gets to the point where they are out of denial. Many terminally ill people quietly, but firmly, believe that they have a pretty good handle on how much time they have. Something inside them says it's not going to be more than a few months, but they, if they're surrounded by people who are in denial, they have no one to discuss that with. They have no one to say, "Look, I'm dying." My daughter, because of her youth and because of who she was, said to me in the hospital one night, she was in her bed, and I was climbing on to a gurney next to her, and she said to me, "Mama, you get that I'm dying, don't you? I need you to get this." It just ripped my heart out, but at the same time, I realized, "Oh, my goodness. I have to look at this. I have to turn around. I have to stop running and pretending that I can find some miraculous doctor in some other country," which is what I was dreaming of at that point. "I have to turn around and look at my child who is telling me, 'I'm dying.' I have to be with her in that moment." I'm telling you, it's hard, and I'm also telling you it's really important for the patient, really important for the patient to be able to say, "The people that love me get it. They get it. I'm dying, and they get it." Dr. Bob: "And stop wasting my time." Right? "I'm-" Debbie Ziegler: Yes. Dr. Bob: "Be here with me, because we don't have a lot of time for what we need to do." Debbie Ziegler: In her case, she wanted us to listen to what her desire was for the rest of her life, what it was going to look like, because being told that she had about six months to live, Brittany immediately sprang into her list of, she had a bucket list of places she wanted to visit. She had a list of people she wanted to talk to before she died. She had a list of accomplishments that she wanted to be able to be a part of, which included, in the beginning, she wanted to write some articles. She decided she wanted to write articles because the medication she was on to keep the pressure in her cranium down from this gigantic tumor causing this pressure, she was taking a lot of steroids, strong steroid medication, and steroid medication at that level has some pretty gnarly side effects. It makes you get this round, very full face, which they refer to in medicine as a moon face. Brittany thought, "All right, because I don't want anybody taking pictures of my moon face, and that way, I can write an article and still have an impact and advocate for other terminally ill patients, but I won't be seen." Then as it turned out, and as many people know, that is not the path that it took, and she was asked to have her photograph taken, and then she was asked to be filmed, and then she was asked to be interviewed. All of this was done when Brittany didn't look like Brittany anymore, and she cried, and she said, "I just see cancer in that face. That doesn't look like my face. That looks like the face of cancer." I know what a sacrifice she made to do this for people. We talked about how it was normal at 29 to feel feelings of vanity, yeah, a little bit, as you're a woman and you don't want to look bad, and how she was going to overcome that. Of course, as her mother, I kept saying, "You're so beautiful, Brittany. You are still beautiful. It's just a different beautiful." She would be like, "Oh, Mama, you're my mom," but I just want people who are ill to know that those last six months that my daughter had were some of the most productive month of her life. She had a sense of urgency and joy. In between sadness and terror, there were these moments of great joy and satisfaction, as we walked through a particular place in nature that spoke to her. She'd call me, "Mama, come and look. Come and look at the banana slug. Come and look at the starfish. Come and ... " We shared those moments of joy because she faced her illness, and she was not going to waste that time. That required decision-making. That required saying, "No," to some treatments that she felt, after reading about them, we're not going to buy her any significant amount of time, and while she did those treatments and did not receive significant time, the treatment itself was going to deteriorate her lifestyle. Her quality of life was very important to her, and she said, "If I'm not getting any measurable upside here in the way of extended life, then I need to be looking at the quality of the little life that I have left," and so she remained focused on that, and she remained strong in the face of some pretty persuasive and, in some cases, almost bullying that went on in the medical system of, "You must do chemotherapy. You must start it on Monday." Even her oncologist, after doing DNA testing, told Brittany, "You aren't a good candidate for chemo." She said, "Your DNA, your markers, are indicating that you're not a good candidate. There's a very, very small percentage of chance that chemo would do you any good, and there is some chance that chemo could actually make your tumor grow faster because you have a glioblastoma now." Dr. Bob: Certainly, it would deteriorate her quality of life, which she knew, and yet still there were physicians who were part of her team who were pushing her. Debbie Ziegler: Definitely pushing that. She stayed with her oncologist, who she felt understood chemo the best more than the surgeon, and she said, "Your own hospital just wrote a paper about chemo not always being the right answer for the brain tumor patient, and so I'm saying, 'No.' I know that you know this within these halls, and I'm not going to do it. It doesn't have enough of a possibility of upside for me, and it has a definite downside that's very well known. The symptoms that will take away my ability to do some things that are very important to me," one of being that she wanted to travel to Alaska, and she wanted to ride in a helicopter in Alaska and land on a glacier. She wanted to go on a dog sled and cross a glacier. She wanted to move in a dog sled on a glacier that was moving on a planet that was moving in a solar system that was moving. We wanted to be moving in time and space, and we did it. Dr. Bob: That's wonderful. That's awesome. Debbie, at what point, at what point after the diagnosis, did the whole concept of medical aid in dying come into her awareness and start becoming a bit of a focus? Debbie Ziegler: For Brittany, her focus on aid and dying came much more quickly than anyone else in her family, because, at Berkeley, she had been in a psychology class where they had had a discussion about end-of-life options. Her class had heatedly argued about end-of-life options, and so Brittany had already thought about this, discussed it, and, quite frankly, been a participant in a conversation at a high level. As soon as she was told, and she did ask directly, none of her family could or would, because we were all in denial, she's the one that forced the conversation and said, "Is this brain tumor going to kill me? Is this a terminal brain tumor?" She was told, "Yes, it is terminal. At this point, until we have tested this cell structure, we don't know how long, but we do know this is what you will die of." As soon as they told her that, she began discussing end-of-life options. She did not know how long her life would be, but she did know that the tumor was going to take her life, and she knew enough from her science background of the course of action that a brain tumor takes that she knew she wanted to be looking into other options rather than just following a natural course. Dr. Bob: How fortuitous for her, not maybe fortuitous at all, but that she had had, been exposed to it. Debbie Ziegler: Yes. Dr. Bob: Not a lot of 28, 29-year-olds are- Debbie Ziegler: No. Dr. Bob: ... and so it could have been a very different process, and path had that not happened. Debbie Ziegler: The way she introduced the topic into conversation was, I think she was trying to spare us until she could discuss it with her parents, but she said to the doctor, "How can I get transferred into the Oregon medical system?" That, of course, to everyone in the room, seemed like an odd question, and in the back of my mind, because I am a science teacher and, of course, had read articles, I thought, "Oregon. Oh, my goodness. I know why she's talking about Oregon." I couldn't have told you the details, but I knew that it had to do with the right to die, and I knew what she was talking about the very first time she mentioned it. I knew where she was going. Within seconds, there were two people in the room. I'm sure the doctor knew what she was talking about, although he chose, at that moment in time, to not recognize it, to say, "Well, why would you want to do that? You're in a fine medical system here in California." It wasn't until days later that we had open conversations about why she was interested in Oregon. Of course, since that time, California has passed an End of Life Option bill. I feel that that is my daughter's legacy. I believe that it was her story of having to move out of California in order to die, in order to die peacefully, that touched a lot of hearts and made history in California. I smile when I think of our End of Life Option Act because, in my heart, it's Brittany's act. Dr. Bob: Well, it was Brittany's act, but she couldn't have done it without you. Right? You- Debbie Ziegler: She- Dr. Bob: You were her partner in that. Debbie Ziegler: She had help, and she had many, many volunteers who loved her, who loved her spunk, her feistiness, her story, who immediately gravitated towards supporting her. I have had letters written from all over the world, from all over the world. I now speak with people in an ongoing relationship, some of whom I have met face to face now, and some of whom I haven't, from countries all over the world about Brittany, and some of these faithful people write me every time it's her birthday, every anniversary of her death, every anniversary of the bill being passed, and they tell me how much my daughter means to them, and that they live in a place where there is no law, and that she stands for hope to them, that she stands for hope that one day, all of humanity will treat each other with love and kindness and will not be so afraid of death. It's such a beautiful legacy that it helps me accept that she's gone. She's gone physically from me. Those first few years, grief was so difficult, and I've met so many grieving people, and as I was grieving, I would literally be knocked down to my knees sometimes. I'd be crying on my knees in the hall, or in the living room, or in the kitchen, or one time in a park, another time in a store, like a T.J. Maxx. Here's this lady down on her knees, crying. I would always smile through my tears and know that Brittany would be saying, "Get up. Get up, right now, because you're on your knees crying. It means there's something that needs to be done. Look around. See what needs to be done." The first time, I got up, and I thought, "Oh, my goodness. I just opened an email about how dire the blood shortage was," so I went and donated blood, and now I try to donate blood twice a year in Brittany's name. I pick times of the year when that is hardest for me. I pick the times of year when I know the grief is going to wash over me again. Times, holidays, her birthday, the day of her death, the beginning of the year. I pick times to do the donations when I know that giving blood is going to be this beautiful gift that's going to lift me out of my sorrow. Then I look around and see other things that need to be done. I see an elderly person that needs a visitor or flowers. I see a friend who needs a visit who is fighting breast cancer. When I go into my worst grief, I always hear her saying, "Get up and look around. There must be something you need to do." That is one of the ways I've dealt with grief is by getting up and looking around. Dr. Bob: And doing what, and doing what is- Debbie Ziegler: And doing something- Dr. Bob: ... right there, immediate, in your awareness. Debbie Ziegler: Yes. Dr. Bob: I'm going to, so can we stay with this for a moment? Debbie Ziegler: Yes. Dr. Bob: I know that I've been with you, and you've shared some of your other tools, tips, ways of working through the grief. Debbie Ziegler: Grief, yes. Dr. Bob: I think I would love for you to share if you're up for it, a couple more, just a little bit more about how you've managed to work through your grief or work with your grief as a guide here for some of our listeners. Debbie Ziegler: Well, in the beginning, I have to admit that grief was like, it was a black ocean sucking me under, and I thought, "If I don't do something, I'm not going to make it." I really, first of all, I admitted this to the people I loved who began searching for things that might help me. My sister came to me with a treatment that's called ... I don't know the letters for it. I think it's PTSD, but it's an eye treatment. Dr. Bob: Oh, EMDR? Debbie Ziegler: EMDR. Dr. Bob: Emotional freedom release, yeah. Debbie Ziegler: It is EMDR, and it's rapid eye movement treatment. Because I told people, "I can't talk my way through this. Talk therapy is not going to be enough. I can't do this." This is a scientific treatment where you are asked to follow a light with your eyes. I was probably the most skeptical person on earth that it would help me, but it did, and rather rapidly. It took me out of this circular, negative thinking that I had. I had a few broken records that revolved around Brittany's illness and Brittany's death, and those records would come on and play over and over again, and this treatment of causing my eyes to move while I thought about this, or while I thought about a very stressful day or the actual day of her death, while I thought or discussed about that, my eyes were moving, and it causes your brain to use both sides, the right and left, and your own brain helps you heal and stop that broken record from playing. That is one treatment that I feel very strongly about. I also used the treatment of touch, of various therapies that have to do with massage and different types of massage, to kind of work the tightness that was in my muscles. After being with Brittany and anticipating her death for six months, there was a lot of muscle difficulty, and so I used that. I also have a sister-in-law who sent me ... I also have a sister-in-law who sent me various scents, an aromatherapist, and she sent me a mister. She sent this to us before Brittany died, and Brittany used it all the time to help her try to sleep. That was a difficult part of the last month of her life was getting any sleep, so both she and I used aromatherapy, which is another thing that I sort of, as a scientist, was sort of like, "How can I possibly help?" Yet- Dr. Bob: It did. Debbie Ziegler: It did. In fact- Dr. Bob: Undeniably. Debbie Ziegler: ... my daughter said the two therapies that helped her the most, she said, "Look at all the doctors we've been to, Mom. Look at all the specialists, the high-paid brain surgeons, neurologists, oncologists," and she said, "Look what I'm down to in the last weeks of my life. I'm down to massage and aromatherapy, and these are the two things that soothe me and help me." She used them right up to the end, and she developed a relationship with her masseuse, and she developed a relationship with my sister-in-law, who sent the aromatherapy. Along with these treatments came this human touch and caring that's so important. Dr. Bob: You're singing my tune. I mean, those are the things, of course, that we try to, and it's just, I didn't know that about Brittany's- Debbie Ziegler: [inaudible 00:35:07]. Dr. Bob: ... about what brought her comfort, so it was really, it's, I guess, confirmation, more confirmation about how incredibly valuable these therapies and are ... Not to throw out every other treatment that is being offered through the traditional medical system, because sometimes those are very important, but the value of some of these- Debbie Ziegler: Simpler- Dr. Bob: ... high-touch- Debbie Ziegler: ... natural- Dr. Bob: Yeah. No side effects. What are the side effects of massage therapy? I'm so happy to hear that that was comforting for her, and also for you, afterward. Debbie Ziegler: It was, and we would go together, and friends would send her massage gift certificates. It was a way for them to reach out to her and to give her some solace. We had a special place that we went to and a special group of women who knew her and knew our story, and so it was a safe place that felt safe to go to, and ... Dr. Bob: And that connection. Right? The connection that she made, which was not, didn't revolve around her illness. Debbie Ziegler: No. Dr. Bob: It wasn't going to get a treatment or for someone to check and see how she's progressing. It was a human connection, which people at all stages need, and when we can provide that, it normalizes things. It enhances the feelings of well-being, so this is another pretty powerful reminder of that. Debbie Ziegler: The people that worked in the area that we went to, which was Portland, Oregon, we went to a place there, they never questioned her. They never argued with her. They just said, "How are you today? Where do you feel that ... Do you have places that we need to concentrate on? Do you have places where you have some knots in your shoulders, you just want ... How much pressure?" It was all about, "What feels good to you, Brittany, today? Because we just want to send you out of here feeling a little bit better than you came in." There was no lofty goal to cure cancer. There was no lofty goal to fix this girl who had this gigantic brain tumor. It was just, "From where you start to where you leave, we promise you're going to feel a little bit better." Dr. Bob: In that moment. Debbie Ziegler: And she did. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Debbie Ziegler: And she did. Dr. Bob: That's wonderful. Debbie Ziegler: Yeah. That's a beautiful thing. Dr. Bob: We talked a bit about some of the ways that you moved through grief, which I'm sure part of that was what you, basically what's become your life's work as well. Debbie Ziegler: That was very fulfilling. To be able to testify was very fulfilling, and I felt that my testimony came from a place that was a little bit extraordinary in that, as Brittany's mother, this was not my first choice. This was not; I did not readily gravitate to this end-of-life option idea. I stayed in denial for a period of time. I had to work through this in my head. I had to analyze some childhood beliefs that I grew up with in Texas, so when I spoke with senators face to face, or representatives face to face, and they were reticent, or they had some childhood religious beliefs that were kind of interfering with their ability to even hear Brittany's story, I could relate to them, and I told them that. I told them, "I was you. I was you. The look on your face, my poor daughter had to see. I see you avoiding this subject. I see you turning away from death. I see you turning away from this idea. My daughter had to watch me do that, and that must have been so hard for her to have her own mother not be able to discuss it, to be in denial for a period of time." I felt that my testimony was from a place of, a commonplace that we had, and I felt that in some cases, minds were able to change, or people were able to look inside and say, "Hey, maybe I do need to look at this a little, from a little bit of a different angle." I felt that that was an important truth that I could share was that I didn't start out all gung-ho about this. I knew what she was talking about, and it scared me to death. It really did. It's an important common ground that we had. Then as I went on and spoke in different environments and different countries, I recently came back from Africa, where I spoke at a conference there where people from 23 different countries met in Africa to discuss our human right worldwide to die peacefully when we are terminally ill, to seek a peaceful death. It was very empowering to meet these people who are; literally, you could almost feel the room vibrating with the love and excitement that these people have about making the end of someone's life more tolerable. Coming back from something like that is just, infuses me more with energy and confidence, and inspires me that this is important work, and that I believe that sharing the hardest parts of how it happened and the hardest parts of what we went through in the public eye and as a family who really didn't have very much of a help and assistance ... In fact, we kind of had to claw our way into a situation where my daughter could use the law. I feel like telling those hard parts and just kind of opening my kimono and letting people see the pain, that maybe they will have confidence when, and if, something happens in their own family, that they can say, "Oh, I read about this one time, and you know what? She was in denial, too. That's what I'm in. I'm in denial. I recognize this." Maybe it will help someone get out of denial. Maybe it will help someone not feel so alone. Maybe it will help someone support a patient and say, "What do you think? You are the one who's dying. Let's make a plan, your plan, your plan, because this is your life, and I want to hear what you want to do." Maybe it will help someone look into the patient's eyes instead of running out of the room and making phone calls to try to make something that can never happen. I just, I think that if we don't tell our story and share the humanness of dying, that we're not going to move forward. The more we keep hiding and not talking about it, the less likely we are to be able to face the end of life, which should be a beautiful time. My daughter showed me that. She showed me that, "Yeah, Mom, it's not always beautiful, because I'm 29, and I'm pissed off that I'm dying, but in between being pissed off, I want to live, and I want to experience joy, and I want to go places, and I want to meet people that I haven't seen in a while, and I want to finish things. I want to feel that I've finished some jobs and some relationships and before I go." She wanted a plan, and I think a dying person's plan, no matter what it is, because it may not be what you, as their relative, want it to be, but their plan is really all they have, and so let's support that plan. Let's talk about that plan and what it's going to look like, and how are we going to get it put in place. I think people don't plan. They wait too late. A hospice is called, sometimes, too late. People end up saying, "Oh, I want to use the End of Life Option Act," but it's too late. They haven't left themselves enough time to get the prescription, to write the letters, to wait for the waiting period. The more we can normalize this and discuss this with our families, with our loved ones, with our friends, the more they can plan and make a good plan, and we can help them put that plan into place, but it's not our job to make the plan for them. It's not our job to get in there and say, "Oh, you need to do this, and you need to do that." We need to stop. After they've been told, "You have a terminal illness," we need to slow down a little minute, and we need to absorb that information with them, and then we need to listen. "What do you want to do? How do you want to live these last months?" It can be beautiful. Dr. Bob: And, "How do you want to die?" Debbie Ziegler: Yes. "How do you want to die?" Dr. Bob: "How do you want to die?" Wow. Okay. I think we came to a beautiful place to pause. You and I are not done with our conversations. Debbie Ziegler: No. Dr. Bob: By a long shot. Debbie Ziegler: California's not finished with this conversation, and I think we're committed to- Dr. Bob: Co-create it. Debbie Ziegler: ... making the best of this that we can. Dr. Bob: Yeah. There's a lot of work to be done. There's a lot of lives to support, and so we will have, you and I will have more conversations, and I would love ... I know we talked a bit about what came out of this conference in South Africa. Another podcast devoted to that would be wonderful- Debbie Ziegler: That would be great. Dr. Bob: ... because that would be very educational for people to see what's going on in the rest of the world and what we have to aspire to. Can you share how people can read more about the story and get more information about you and Brittany? Debbie Ziegler: Oh, the book I wrote about Brittany was published by Simon & Schuster, and it is available on all the major online vehicles that you can buy books, I mean, every single one. Amazon, all the bookstores. The title is Wild and Precious Life. I hope that when you read it, it will make you want to live a wild and precious life, because we just have this little bit of time, and we might as well make it wild and precious. I'm Deborah Ziegler, Brittany Maynard's mother. My greatest achievement in my life, my daughter, who I love dearly, was a great model of living a wild and precious life. I would urge you to read her story and benefit from it. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I agree. I second that wholeheartedly. It's a wonderful story. It's hard to read, at times, for sure, but it is a, it's well worth it, and I think you'll gain some really great insights. Thank you for writing it. Thank you for all that you do. Thank you for being here. It's an honor. Debbie Ziegler: Thank you.

Dr. Bob's patient, Bill Andrews had ALS and was terminally ill. Before Bill decided to exercise his right to die in California, he agreed to do this interview to help others understand the importance of the law and his decision.     Transcript Dr. Bob:  Hi everybody. I'm here today on the phone with a gentleman who I'm really interested in having everybody hear from and meet. It's kind of a unique opportunity on all counts to hear from a gentleman who has lived life very fully, really did a lot of things that many people only dream about doing in his life and before he was able to really see that life through, was afflicted by a disease that has no cure and is universally debilitating and in many cases fatal. He's become a patient and a friend and I've had an opportunity to really be amazed by his story and by his outlook and approach, both himself and his family. We only have a brief opportunity to hear from and learn from Bill because, well, you'll find out why in just a bit. I'd love to introduce William Bill Andrews. Bill, say hello to our listeners. Bill Andrews: Hello listeners. Dr. Bob: Thanks. Bill Andrews: This is Bill Andrews reporting in. Dr. Bob: Thank you, Bill. Thank you so much for being here. Bill, who's with you? You have a couple of your sons with you as well. Can we introduce them? Bill Andrews: Yes. I'm with my oldest son, Brian, and my youngest son, Chris. Dr. Bob: All right, and thank you guys for Bill Andrews: They can say hello, I guess. Brian: Hello. Dr. Bob: All righty. Sounds good. As I mentioned, Bill is a 73-year-old gentleman with ALS. Bill, how long have you had ALS? Bill Andrews: I'm going to say probably about—I'm going to guess about two years. Dr. Bob: Okay. Bill Andrews: I was diagnosed about what, a year and a half ago, Brian? Brian: One year ago. Bill Andrews: One year ago. Then it was very obvious that there was something seriously wrong. The precursor to this is I had broken my back. I used to motocross and do a lot of surfing and stuff and I had many, many ... I brought injuries into the ALS experience. Broken back. Oh, just all kinds of stuff, so when I finally couldn't deal with the kind of the day-to-day life of my current injuries and stuff, that's when I really got [inaudible 00:02:51 ALS because I couldn't stand up. I could barely walk. I was still trying to surf, like an idiot, but it became very difficult. Just a year and a half ago I was in Peru surfing. Dr. Bob: Wow, but you knew something was going on? You had already Bill Andrews: I knew something was going on. Dr. Bob: Okay. Bill Andrews: I knew something serious was going on. Dr. Bob: Then a year ago it was officially diagnosed and then what's Bill Andrews: Correct. Dr. Bob: What are things like today? Bill Andrews: Horrible. I'm in bed. I get fed. I wear diapers. I'm kind of confined to my bed. We have a Hurley lift, I'm going to guess that thing is called. Dr. Bob: A Hoyer lift. Bill Andrews: Hoyer lift, and I just get into that and I have an electric wheelchair. Last weekend I was able to get out and see my kids play some sports and stuff, but that's about it. This is where I live now. At Silvergate, room 1-1-3 in my hospital bed. Dr. Bob: Wow, and a year and a half ago you were surfing in Peru? Bill Andrews: When was it? Brian: Yeah. It was a year and a half ago. Yeah. Yeah. Bill was surfing in Peru. Bill Andrews: But I knew there was something wrong, you know? I was struggling. Dr. Bob: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Bill Andrews: Really mightily. Dr. Bob: Yeah. As far as you are aware, and you've been dealing with this and obviously researching being treated. You've been in the system. Bill Andrews: Correct. Dr. Bob: Everybody, the best that medical care has to offer has been offered to you, I'm assuming. Bill Andrews: Correct. Dr. Bob: Here you are in this situation. What is your understanding of what will happen if things just are allowed to go on as they would normally? Bill Andrews: Well, as I understand it, I will not be able to swallow my food chew my food, swallow my food. Nor be able to breathe on my own, as I understand it. Dr. Bob: Right. Which is correct. I mean, the timeframe for those things is unclear. Bill Andrews: Right. Dr. Bob: Have the doctors given you any estimates? Bill Andrews: No. That's a moving target. No, they haven't. No. Uh-uh (negative). Dr. Bob: Okay, but that's inevitable for every person who has amyotrophic lateral sclerosis. Bill Andrews: I haven't heard of anything yet. I tell people, you know, I'd guess ... Because I have some friends that say, “Well, look, Bill, a cure may be right around the corner. You know, just stay in bed and they'll invent a cure and you're going to be fine." Well, that ain't going to happen. In my lifetime anyway. I don't want to go out with the tube in me and all that stuff. I feel at least now I'm reasonably good mentally and this is kind of where  I'm at a good point right now. Spiritually, emotionally, physically. Dr. Bob: Great. Bill Andrews: That's where I am. Dr. Bob: That's where you are. Bill Andrews: Yep. Dr. Bob: What's your game plan? You want to talk about the strategy and what's been happening? Bill Andrews: Well, my game plan is—well, for the last couple of weeks I've been trying to wrap up a lot of little-unfinished tasks and chores that I wanted to complete, little projects, but I think they're doing just fine. I think my family ... I guess the big thing for me is that my family, that we're all on the same page. That to me was crucial. That we all understood what I was doing and why I was doing it and that this was all my choice. Looking at what the options are and for me, an option is not being confined to my bed the rest of my life and being kept alive. I don't want to be a Stephen Hawking, and another thing that I wanted to really pass on to my kids is that I'm not fighting the battle, I'm just kind of lying here. I'm getting taken care of. This ain't a bad ... You know, if you like getting taken care of, this ain't bad. I get my diapers changed, get fed, get dessert. People run errands for me, but the warriors are like my kids and the caregivers and the doctors like you are. You guys are the warriors. I'm just a ... You know, you're the warriors and right now I'm just kind of a settler. I just got to lie here but you guys are out there doing the battle. Dr. Bob: What an incredibly refreshing perspective to have. You know? You're not feeling like a victim like so many people justifiably do. You know, you're seeing it from so many different angles, not just your own. Not only through your own eyes, which is remarkable, I think. Bill Andrews: Oh, thank you. Well, yeah. About 30-something years ago I was diagnosed with a real, pretty bad case of malignant melanoma and I was only given a few months to live at that time. That was about 30-something years ago. My kids were there when I was diagnosed and everything, so I've already fought that battle. I had the tumor taken out of my arm. Had my lymph nodes excised. I fought that battle because I could see there's was a way to win that one, so there I kind of feel like I was a warrior, but here, ah, you guys are. Dr. Bob: Mm-hmm (affirmative). That battle, the melanoma battle, I've seen how that turns out in most cases, which is not the way it turned out for you. It was, at least back then - Bill Andrews: No, I was bad with the - Dr. Bob: You were well aware of that. I know. Bill Andrews: I was very, very lucky. Yeah, I was very lucky. In fact, kind of going a little off track, at the time I had it they were experimenting with BCG injections. Dr. Bob: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Bill Andrews: Up at UCLA. They were going to inject BCG in the initial site of the tumor for melanoma. Dr. Bob: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Bill Andrews: I sent my path report up to them and they rejected me because the path report looked so bad, that I probably was going to die. They didn't want that on the report. Dr. Bob: Wow. Bill Andrews: I kind of fought that one out anyway. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Bill Andrews: Flipped a little bit. Dr. Bob: You faced your mortality, right? You had no choice but to face your mortality at that point. Bill Andrews: Correct. Dr. Bob: You were what? Bill Andrews: Oh, there is no choice. Dr. Bob: Yeah. You were in your 40's? Bill Andrews: Yeah. Absolutely. Dr. Bob: With children that were young. Right? Bill Andrews: Right. Correct. Dr. Bob: Certainly not grown adults. Bill Andrews: They were there in the doctor's office with me, yeah. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Bill Andrews: Right. Dr. Bob: I think you were sort of alluding to this and assuming that, maybe assuming that some of the people out there who are listening know what we're talking about.  But I don't think we actually discussed what the option is that you are taking to handle things the way that you feel best. Can you share a bit, share that? Bill Andrews: Sure. I, you know, kind of put a box on the board. I'll kind of equate this back to my melanoma. With the melanoma, I was given ... The doctors said, "Well, you kind of have three choices. 1: You do nothing because it appears to be fairly advanced melanoma and just see what happens. 2: You look for some miracle cure somewhere. Go to Haiti or somewhere and find a miracle cure. Or 3: Let conventional medicine dig in, and I took the third choice and I'm still here. With the ALS the choices seem to be kind of the same. I can just sit back here and wait until I can no longer breathe or eat. Or I can be kept alive by breathing tubes and feeding tubes and stuff. Or I can do with this choice that I'm making now, which is to go through the end of life in a peaceful happy way with ... I mean, I feel good about this, doctor, I really do. As long as my family's on board with me it's spectacular. I really don't think there's ... The choice for me, and this is easy, you know. This is the time and I'm not going to be kept alive. I watched a Stephen Hawking film on TV years ago and there was a lot of recrimination and stuff about, anger and stuff, by keeping him alive and I don't want that to happen with my family. Nor do I want it to cost eight trillion dollars to keep me alive. There're  factors that went into my decision. Dr. Bob: Many factors and the decision is still being made every day. Bill Andrews: Every day. Every single day, Doctor. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Bill Andrews: Yeah. Dr. Bob: For clarification, Bill is exercising his legal right in California to go through the end of life option act. To receive Aid in Dying, which means that he's made requests of his physician, who's me in this case, to prescribe a medication that will allow him to end his life if he chooses to take it on his terms at the time and place of his choosing. A second doctor who knows him well has concurred that Bill is of sound mind and has a condition that's terminal. Bill has submitted a written request saying basically the same thing. Four days from the date of this recording, Bill's plan is to get this prescription filled and take this medication with his family around him, his loved ones, and he will peacefully, quickly, and in a very dignified way, stop breathing and die. As I said, Bill's making this choice each day because there's no requirement. He doesn't need to take the medication. He can choose at any time not to, and it's just fascinating to be having a conversation with a man who has the presence of mind, the courage, the support from his family, and knows that there's a very good chance and in his mind an absolute chance, that his life will be ending in four days. I am completely honored and awed to be able to have this really frank conversation with you about what you're thinking and feeling and I remember our last conversation you just kind of blew me away when you told me that you're excited. This whole thing is in some way exciting to you. Are you still feeling that way? Bill Andrews: Oh, absolutely. No, this is a ... No. We're, you know we're ... You, I mean… It's great talking. Let me just kind of preface. You have this really kind way of speaking that most of my other doctors haven't had quite the effect on me that you have. Yeah, I'm enjoying this. I've kind of been a pioneer in a lot of things and this is just ... I'm really enjoying this and let me tell you, Doctor, the thing that's the most incredible thing to me, and this is more of a, really a spiritual and emotional thing, is being able to choose when you're going to die. I've always thought if I were to die the most noble way, for me, would be to be protecting my family, my loved ones, or even a dog in the street or something. If I were going to die, would be doing, I guess maybe doing good, but you never know when it's going to hit, but with this, I get to say the goodbyes. I get to do whatever unfinished business. I get to finish any unfinished business and it's unreal, kind of. Very interesting. I think this can do a lot of good. I was telling somebody this morning that if one were suicidal, the worst way to end one's life would be by suicide by cop or something. Where you actually in one's selfishness at ending your life, you end others. Dr. Bob: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Bill Andrews: Where I think that's horrible and I have friends who have done that, but for this, you know, I'm choosing the time. I'm choosing the place. I'm choosing the environment. I'm choosing the company and for me, this is by far, I can't think of anything better. I've almost drowned a couple of times. I've been in car accidents and all that but this is almost soothing. I hope it really works in the way that it's been intended to work and doesn't get prostituted or something in some way that it goes off track. Dr. Bob: You mean the whole idea of the ability to support people in this way with terminal illnesses and the physician aid in dying? You're worried that it could somehow get off track? Bill Andrews: I hope it doesn't is what I'm saying. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Well, there's a lot of protections in there and if I have anything to say about it, it won't. There's enough. You know? Bill Andrews: Yep. Yeah. Well, I know. That's why you know, you guys at the beginning are the ones that are going to chart the course and that's I think, really, really important. Dr. Bob: Yeah, and I think it's important for people to consider, to understand that this is so far away from suicide. When I hear the word physician-assisted suicide I understand Bill Andrews: Yeah. Dr. Bob: It irks me because I think that there's nothing remotely like the suicide that most people think about, which is to end, you know, your life because of some emotional suffering or situation that you're in. People who are using this option, like you, are dying. I mean, you would choose. I'm sure that you would give anything, anything, to be able to not be in that position. Right? In which case you would be— the furthest thing from your mind would be taking a medication and ending your life. Bill Andrews: Absolutely. That's absolutely true and I know sometimes I throw the word suicide out and that's only because maybe because it's simple to say that word but I certainly like your definition a heck of a lot better than mine. Dr. Bob: I guess I took that opportunity just to insert my bias on that. Bill Andrews: Well, I agree. I think you're absolutely not. Dr. Bob: This is your experience and you can think about it or talk about it Bill Andrews: Right. Dr. Bob: Any way you want. Bill Andrews: Yeah. Dr. Bob: Bill, I have the advantage of having a little bit more knowledge of your background and who you are and I think this whole conversation becomes more poignant when people have a sense of what you've done. Could you share a little bit about your background? Bill Andrews: Oh boy. How much time do we have? Dr. Bob: Let's do the Reader's Digest version. Bill Andrews: Well, we'll do a real quick one, yeah. My grandfather's a general in the army. The Air Force. My father was in the military. I was born in Chicago. We moved to California in the '50s and eventually, my family ended up in La Jolla. I grew up right across the street surfing and enjoying the ocean at La Jolla Shores. Graduated from La Jolla High School. Got a scholarship to the University of New Mexico as the United States was preparing for Vietnam. I didn't do real well with that experience with the military side of my education. Anyway, I kind of did an odd thing. I just worked. I have a very broad, broad work history. Not very deep. I know a little bit about a lot of stuff. I've done engineering. I've done clothing manufacturing. I've made garments overseas. I did some advertising programs for Pepsi-Cola. I was on the cover of Surfer magazine if that makes any big deal. I used to motocross motorcycles. I used to race motorcycles. An avid sportsman, fishing. Loved education so this is why this program that you're doing is so fascinating to me. I'm absolutely enjoying every second of watching this go through the process. Raised three beautiful children. Actually, their mother did a much better job at raising them than I did. I just love learning about this and I am so thankful that we've progressed to a state where we can talk about these things. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Bill Andrews: You know, maybe my kids have a one- sentence thing they can say. Not something too bad. Dr. Bob: I would love to get a little bit of the insight from them if they're willing. No pressure though. Brian: Hello, this is Brian and just—my dad's always been a real go-getter in life and wants us to be the very best we can be and always wanting us to be improving and really to be exceptional. Of course, it's been very difficult to watch him go from a very active person and suffering through the loss of being able to use his body. Back on that comment about the suicide, I'm finding a lot of comfort from knowing that you know the cause of death is ALS and that we're able to make this choice. The aid in dying is just fabulous for us that this was passed in California and we're getting the help to do this and your guidance. It's either, you know, going to be that path or watching him really suffer and go through a long and much more difficult process, having a result in a very short time from now that we get to avoid with this. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Brian: Feeling very fortunate and very proud of my dad and very thankful we have this choice. Dr. Bob: Wonderful and I have to tell you, you know, that giving him the gift of supporting him is incredibly powerful. I've had the opportunity to be with many of the family members. The children, the spouses, parents of people who have done the end- of- life option and they are all so at peace knowing that they gave that gift and it didn't always start out— they didn't start out feeling supportive or comfortable with it by any stretch of the imagination but having come through that together, recognizing how desperately important it is to the person who's dying to have that support and to have people with them at the time, you get to go on the rest of your life knowing that you gave that ultimate and last gift. Brian: Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Bob: Good for you and thank you. This might be helpful for people. When your dad first—and Chris, if you want to chime in too—When your dad first approached this with you, what was your initial reaction? Do you remember? Brian: Well we actually brought this forward ourselves in working with him. We were looking at researching ALS and talking about what we wanted to do in the time ahead from diagnosis and we decided we were going to really come together as a family and we took a great trip together, a road trip, and we spent a lot of time together and had a lot of great conversations. Dad's friends from surfing—he's got hundreds of friends— threw him an amazing party. It was a celebration of life while he was here and that's the way Dad wanted to do that versus waiting until he was gone and having a big service and paddle out after he was gone, so that was an amazing day. We had a band, amazing food. It was a beautiful day at the beach. Dr. Bob: Wow. Brian: His friends made this happen down in La Jolla. We've really just taken this time to come closer together and have these great experiences. We were thinking about how this was all going to come to an end and we were going to ALS meetings and just really learning about it and part of that was just researching. I remember reading about it online and then we talked about it as a family and then, you know, it kind of went from there. Dr. Bob: Okay. Brian: Yeah, just exploring the options. We all have felt really good about it from day one. Dr. Bob: Great, so it kind of happened organically and a lot of times it's the individual who finds out about it or comes to that kind of decision, sometimes having been thinking about it for quite a while and it does take some finesse sometimes and time to get families onboard, so I'm glad that you didn't have to go through that. You were able to just, from day one, be united and working together, which is great. Bill Andrews: Yeah, I think in general we were 90 to 95% onboard in total from day one. My decision was I did not want to be kept alive and if it came down to not eating, not drinking or whatever, that was my chosen course. I wasn't going to put my family—I didn't want to put my family through a whole bunch of torture but a torture for me would be breathing help and eating help. Dr. Bob: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Bill Andrews: And selfishly watching my bank account go from a very small amount to negative numbers. Dr. Bob: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Bill Andrews: A lot's played into my decision, selfishly, on what I was going to do. Dr. Bob: I hear you. Bill Andrews: I appreciate them that they're going along with this. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Chris: This is Chris. I have one more thing to add to that. Dr. Bob: Great. Chris: I think in the beginning we were very curious about the disease and that curiosity led us to read a lot and also like Brian said, they started going to meetings. I was living in New York and I was pretty far away, so for me, it was more of like an academic research. Like what can I read and what can I understand more of? Once you start to dive into that space and you get like ... If you don't have a disease you need proximity to it to understand it and once you do, it sort of is like "this is awful" and you want to do everything you can to help. I think that for other families that might be going through this, I imagine there's a lot of avoidance of kind of really want to think about the end or "I don't really want to know too much about it”.  But for us I think having, throwing ourselves into it, it gave us a lot more strength, I guess, to just keep moving through this process with him. Dr. Bob: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Chris: Because we know what's on the other side of it. We don't know how he's feeling but we're able to paint a picture of it by seeing how other people, what it's done to other people. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Now other people will be able to look and have, hopefully, hear this conversation, and the conversation can continue in various forms, but to see how powerful it can be to plan. Right? Not to avoid but to see what's coming, what are the alternatives, how do you make sure that at the end you feel like you have the control you need, that you always would want. The disease takes pretty much all control, at least physical control, away. I imagine knowing that you're going to be able to make this last decision for yourself, Bill, gives you a real sense of control back that's been missing. Bill Andrews: Oh, it absolutely does. I just want to add one more thing too. When I first was diagnosed I wanted to learn more and more about the disease. I'm reading, reading, voraciously and you know, it's all over the place of what it is, what causes it, what doesn't cause it and on and on and on.   So I kind of, I started writing originally about my experiences on my blog and then I thought, eh, if people want to learn about the disease they can go to Wikipedia or something. People had asked and they go, “Well, how are you feeling today? You're moving your toes.", or something. I go, “Well, you know, maybe you ought to learn more about the disease yourselves and then maybe you'd understand where I'm coming from a little easier." Because it's all kind of basically the same, so rather than explaining to the same people every other day how I'm feeling, just, you know, make your own calendar and chart it yourself and they can make their own timeline or something. Dr. Bob: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative). Brian: Yeah, my dad's real quick as well. Dad would always say, "Hey, if this is where it would stop, I could be okay. Where I still can stand up and take a few steps with my walker or be able to feed myself and go to the bathroom. Yeah, okay, I'm okay." Then every day we'd get progressively worse and you hit a new level and it'd be like "Wow, I didn't think I'd keep going with this but now that I'm here I could keep going a little more.", and it was just like, and I'm going where is the line? You know? Where is the final level where it's not going to be okay anymore and then it becomes a— there is a point where ... Because as Chris said, "Dad, we're researching." In the end Dad, he was consistent from day one. "I will not be in a feeding tube. I will not be in on a respirator. I don't want to be kept alive. If I have to be fully cared for and bedridden, that's not the quality of life I want to have and that's when I'm ready to go." So always trying to think about, well, at some point we're going to hit a point where you can't move your arms at all. Today he can't move his legs and he doesn't have the strength to do anything with his arms other than lift something that weighs just a few ounces. Pretty soon he won't have the ability to use his arms at all and that's very close so we're trying to stay ahead. We know that there're only a few decisions left. You know, at the very end he's going to starve to death and go through a [inaudible 00:33:26. A difficult process or take this option, so it's been just always trying to stay ahead, but as the years evolved, choices and the days and the weeks and the equipment we need and choices to make has been—it's all in Dad's own journey. Dr. Bob: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Brian: But here we are and now we're all feeling really good about this choice. You know, given where we are. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Thank you. That was really awesome to hear and it's Dad's journey but you're a team and the obvious connection and bond that you guys share in his knowing that this isn't—it's not going to tear you apart, it's not going to destroy you. That you are so together on it and seeing this is the compassionate option. I mean that's going to allow him to slip away so peacefully with that feeling of I don't know, completion or this ultimate sense of connection so that's really powerful that you've been able to create that for him together, all of you. Bill Andrews: Yeah, it's the compassion I think that is so important. You know, everybody can have sympathy or they can have empathy, but all I ask from people is you don't even have to understand it, just accept it as it is and when I tell you how it is, that's what it is. If you need any more information, go to Wikipedia. Go to WebMD or something, I don't know. That's the way I feel. Dr. Bob: All right. Hey, I have two more questions if that's okay and then I'm going to let you go. Bill Andrews: Okay. Dr. Bob: One of them is do you have any fear at this point? Is there anything about this that is causing fear or anxiety for you? Bill Andrews: Absolutely not. Not a drop of fear. Dr. Bob: Awesome. Great. Bill Andrews: No. This is like, you know— Dr. Bob: Oh, go ahead. Bill Andrews: Just a new adventure. A new adventure. Dr. Bob: Okay. That's beautiful. Bill Andrews: Anticipation, not fear. Dr. Bob: Great. I guess the last one is what would you like to share? I know it's not like you're out shouting from the mountaintops to the masses here but Bill Andrews: Right. Dr. Bob: Can you distill down your message? Bill Andrews, Big Pink. Bill Andrews: Surfing. Surfing nickname, no less. Dr. Bob: It's a surfing nickname. Bill Andrews: I guess now that I'm looking back, obviously you can't make every move the right move and just a couple of things. I think if you kind of put your life on autopilot— this may be a little weird but, kind of set a course if you can. You know, get a point A to point B and of course, then obviously by judgment is the right course. You know, a good course. Like a righteous course, and try to stay to that and every once in a while get, but because of your autopilot and that comes internally or God or your friends or whatever, kind of knocks you back into ... Excuse me. Back on course so you're not out there one month, two months, three months. You know, kind of lost out there and then you're looking at time bandits and everything. I think it's very important to make as much effective use of your time as you possibly can, and there again, you know I'm preaching to the choir and all that stuff, but I look back at my life. You know, you only have so many minutes in your life and, gosh, if you could just make 60% of those minutes effective and doing good again, all by definition, that would be my—that's my message to my kids. Kind of pick that course, stay on that course, and you'll look back and go, "Gosh, I've lived a good life and I'm proud of what I've done." Dr. Bob: That's beautiful. Thank you. That's really phenomenal. You guys, Brian, Chris, do you have anything you'd like to say about your dad or anything regarding this before we close out? Brian: Just that we love Dad very much and we're proud of him and proud to be your son, Dad. Bill Andrews: Thank you. Dr. Bob: All right, guys. Bill Andrews: Okay. Dr. Bob: Hey, thank you so much for your time and thank you so much for all you know, Bill, all you've brought to the world. I will be seeing you soon and looking forward to every moment that we have together.

Cathy Spatuzzi is a yoga and fitness instructor who works with Integrated MD Care. She shares how she helps patients and her views on why she doesn't fear death and, instead, makes sure she is living in every moment.   Books on End of Life Being Mortal, Atul Gawande Knocking on Heaven's Door, Katy Butler Find more in this blog post, here. Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text.  We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Transcript Dr. Bob: Hello and welcome to A Life and Death Conversation. I'm here today with a good friend and a really valued member of my Integrated MD Care team Cathy Spatuzzi. I'm very excited to introduce you to Cathy and to hear some of her insights. Cathy and I have known each other for a bit, and we've shared some incredible experiences with our patients. We're going to touch on some of those, let you know what Cathy does and how she does it because I think she's really quite an expert in her field and I know that she loves what she does. So, Cathy, thank you for being here and joining us. Cathy Spatuzzi: Hello, Dr. Bob. Thank you for having me. Dr. Bob: Yeah, my pleasure. It's great to see you. I'll share that trying something new, our podcasts, the ones that I've done previously have all been recorded on the phone. Today Cathy is in the office, and we're doing it together. It's really nice to be able to look at her in the eyes as we do this. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah, I agree, face-to-face is very nice. Dr. Bob: Yeah. So Cathy is … her title is yoga and fitness instructor. I know that there's probably a lot of yoga and fitness instructors out there who work in various capacities but that doesn't really begin to explain quite what Cathy does because I've seen her in action and I've seen the results of her work. It's nothing short of magical; I have to say. Cathy goes in and works with some of our sickest and most frail patients. She works with people who have dementia. She works with people of all ages and abilities. They don't even know they're exercising. They actually just think they're playing games and meeting a really cool, fun, person. So Cathy, can you just share a little bit about how that happens, what you do, how you approach your patients and just share a little bit about how that magic happens? Cathy Spatuzzi: Sure. So I got my yoga instructor certificate, and I started teaching seniors. I took an extra class in teaching seniors, and I really loved it. Then I met Dr. Bob, and I've always been a physical exercising person myself, and so I've made up my own little program where I go into a person's home, and we have a whole hour of exercise. So we do physical weights, and whatever that person needs at the time, that's how I meet their needs. So we do dancing, we do marching. I bring some music sometimes. I have little balls that we do exercise with. They're bright and colorful. We play games with the balls. I also have just blown up regular balloons, and we hit the balloon back and forth and play a game that way. A lot of people that used to do tennis or volleyball, they remember that, and their muscles and cells remember that and they really get a lot of fun exercise just hitting the balloon back and forth. They tell me lovely stories. Most of my people are 80 to 90, some are a 100 years old, and they tell me fabulous stories. They all have a very positive attitude in life. Dr. Bob: I've met with people, I've been there after you've been with them and it really is pretty dramatic. A lot of our patients, because a lot of times they don't feel well, they don't have a lot of energy, they're dealing with pain, they're dealing with other challenges, and exercise is not something that they necessarily prioritize or look forward to, but that's not the case with you. They obviously don't feel like they're doing exercise. They don't feel like they're working. There's something else. There's another piece that obviously you're bringing to it, which, to me, it feels like you're just really connecting with them very deeply and appreciating them as human beings, and the exercise just happens as on the side. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes, I agree. I don't think of it as exercise myself. I go in, and I have fun, yes, and I connect with that person one-on-one, find out what they like, what else do they like, then I bring that in with them. Dr. Bob: We've shared a couple of patients that had had some pretty remarkable experiences, people who were not expected to live more than a month or two who through combined efforts have gone on to live for a couple years, people who were not walking who are now walking half a mile to a mile without difficulty. Can you share maybe a little bit about what that's like for you to be part of that? Cathy Spatuzzi: It's a gift. I love all my clients, but to work one-on-one and to see a person that was maybe almost on their deathbed to come back and is living and they want to have a life. One of my sayings is motion lotion. If you don't move your body, you're going to get stiff, and you're not going to feel like moving so let's just keep moving. Some of my other seniors that are more fit, that's what they say, you have to keep moving, you have to keep moving, you have to keep moving. So I keep them moving. Dr. Bob: You keep on moving, and you keep it fun. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah. Well, you have to have fun in life, so why not bring it to your work? Dr. Bob: Yup, I agree 100%. So this is A Life and Death Conversation, and part of what we're trying to do is give people just a look into how we can have an easier time talking about topics that can be difficult: death, illness, debility. So as an example, we are doing that there. We're talking about things that might not come up in normal conversation. I, as you know, go right to the point. I don't mince words. I don't hold back a whole lot. I just want to ask you and get some of your personal perspectives on some of these things, if that's okay. Cathy Spatuzzi: Sure. Dr. Bob: All right. Tell me, do you have … and this is a question I ask all my guests. Are you afraid of dying? Cathy Spatuzzi: No, I'm not afraid of dying. Dr. Bob: You're not afraid of dying. Cathy Spatuzzi: No. Dr. Bob: Well, why? Can you share why you're not afraid of dying? Cathy Spatuzzi: My maternal grandmother always talked to me about death. Dr. Bob: Really? Cathy Spatuzzi: It wasn't morbid. It wasn't like, "Oh, I …" I don't know, she just always talked about it. It wasn't something under the covers. Dr. Bob: Just kept in awareness of it in the home? Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah, like when somebody died, we'd talk about it, or when- Dr. Bob: Okay, how healthy. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes, uh-huh (affirmative), and so I think I've just adopted her attitude and calmness about it. For me, thinking about dying, I think about living. So I'm alive. I can walk and talk, and do all these beautiful things, but let's be present doing it. If you're just walking through life in a fog, then you're not living, but when you think about you're going to die, maybe that's a point where you're going to wake up and start being present in your life. Dr. Bob: Do you feel like thinking about dying, talking about dying is responsible for you having a greater awareness of and maybe gratitude for life? Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes. I think I have gratitude every night before I go to bed. Dr. Bob: I guess, not being dead is a part of that, right? Cathy Spatuzzi: Right. Driving around and you see the beautiful clouds. You might see an airplane. Let's take each moment for today because maybe you will die tomorrow. Let's be grateful for what we have today, not think about what if, what if, what if it's going to happen. I pray that I have a beautiful day and then I have a beautiful meal and then I go to sleep and die. Not tomorrow. Dr. Bob: Not tonight, yeah. Cathy Spatuzzi: Not tomorrow. I got- Dr. Bob: Because I know you have some things to do this weekend. I know you have some plans. Cathy Spatuzzi: I know, yeah. I have plenty more years ahead of me, but that's what I've always thought about, nice and peaceful. Dr. Bob: Beautiful. Interesting. We both are spending time now with people who believe that they may not have a lot of time left, some of them because they're elderly and some of them because they have a terminal illness, and in some of those conversations, I hear people talking about how their time is so limited. Occasionally, they get into this pattern of feeling bad about it, and I wouldn't say necessarily feeling sorry for themselves, but focusing on how their life is going to be shortened and they're aware of that. I always accept that. I never try to convince them to think differently. That's their thought, and I would never judge that, but what I'm aware of is that there's no guarantee for any of us. I may have a patient who has a prognosis, a life expectancy of three or four weeks. There's a lot of people who are going to die unexpectedly before that person dies. We may be one of them. We have no guarantees, and so focusing on what we have today like you're talking about like you're suggesting being grateful for the fact that we are alive and that most of what's going on in our life is good, may not be perfect. Jon Kabat-Zinn, the creator of the mindfulness-based stress reduction program, had a phrase that I love and I repeated often. It's, "As long as you're breathing, there's more right with you than wrong with you." Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes, I agree. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Cathy Spatuzzi: That's beautiful. Dr. Bob: Sometimes if somebody is lamenting about the pain that they're having, the limitations that they're having, just remembering how many trillions of things are happening simultaneously in our body, the chemical process, the cellular division, the fact that everything is working as it's designed to, except for a few things, which could be significant things, it's still a magical design. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah, the body is an amazing piece of work. Dr. Bob: Yeah, and you're doing a great job of keeping it amazing. Cathy Spatuzzi: Thank you. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Cathy Spatuzzi: I love working with the clients, yeah. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Some of our clients die, right? Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes, they do. Dr. Bob: Yeah, they do. How do you deal with that? Cathy Spatuzzi: It's difficult at first. Dr. Bob: Because you spend more time with them even than I do. You're with them sometimes two or three times a week and getting very close, getting very connected with them. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes. When they die, going into this though, I mean that's part of life, and I knew that but when they die, I go into myself and remember all the good times that we had together, but then that also brings up for me my own experience with my own family and dying. So then it's almost like I grieve all of them: my parents, my grandparents, a friend all over again, which isn't a bad thing. Yes, it's sad and, yes, I cry, but there's another layer of deepening, of healing, of comfort for me. Dr. Bob: So when a patient dies, when somebody who you've been working with a client, it sounds like you're allowing that experience to create another layer of connection with other people who have gone before them, with your family. It allows you to grieve all of death, all of the people who have gone. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes, I grieve all of the people that have died that I know and then I think about where did they go … all the same, questions come up for me. Where did they go? Where does the spirit go? Where does the soul go? Where does the brain …? I've read a lot of books, and I still don't have any answers. Dr. Bob: Oh, darn it. I was hoping that you were going to give me the answer now. Cathy Spatuzzi: No, I don't have any answers, and that's okay. I'm comfortable with that. Dr. Bob: So you don't know but what do you think? Where do you think … what's your thought about what happens after we die? Cathy Spatuzzi: Well, I believe that the physical body dies. I would like to believe that there is an after realm, rather you call it heaven or reincarnation. Those are the things I don't know, but it would be nice to see some people again that have gone before me. Dr. Bob: So you're not positive. Cathy Spatuzzi: No, I'm not positive. Dr. Bob: What percentage of certainty are you that there's something else? Cathy Spatuzzi: 50/50. Dr. Bob: 50/50. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah, and I'm comfortable with that. It's because I've thought about it so much. Dr. Bob: Well, if there is … Oh, that's nice. You're like right on the 50-yard line there. So if there is something else, then that's great, and we'll be hopefully very pleased to find out, and if there isn't, well then we will never know, right? Cathy Spatuzzi: Right. I've asked some of my relatives that were dying. I said, "Now, when you get wherever you're going, wherever that is, give me a sign." Dr. Bob: And? Cathy Spatuzzi: I haven't gotten anything. Dr. Bob: You haven't gotten anything. I have. I think I've shared that, my dragonfly connection. Cathy Spatuzzi: I did have a feeling, but not necessarily like a physical sign, like a picture or something, but I've had feelings of my grandmother touching my hand. I knew it was her. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Cathy Spatuzzi: I knew it was her. Dr. Bob: Okay. So then- Cathy Spatuzzi: So maybe yeah. Dr. Bob: Yeah, I'll go with that. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Dr. Bob: Cool. It's interesting because there are … I hear that people are very uncomfortable talking about death. I hear that all the time. People don't want to talk about it. They want to ignore it, pretend it's never going to happen. I don't have that experience with people, and maybe it's just because I draw it out. But in the conversations that I or maybe people who … Maybe those people like walk away when they see me coming; I don't know. But I actually find that people want to talk about it and given the opportunity, they're drawn to the conversation. It's interesting because I find some people want to talk about a bad experience and maybe it's because I'm a physician and I make it safe, but they want to share how traumatic this was and complain … not complain, but just put it out there and it seems like it's little cathartic when they talk about how difficult an experience was. Then there's another group of people who were really transformed by a beautiful experience around death and dying of a friend or a loved one, and they also want … it's cathartic for those people as well. I find it really fascinating how much people want to have this conversation when it's brought up in a way that's safe, and someone clearly wants to hear what they have to say, what their thoughts are. Cathy Spatuzzi: I have found that some people just need somebody else to listen. They haven't found that person, and maybe that's you. Dr. Bob: Yeah, maybe, maybe. I'll tell you that sometimes my wife, Sandy, it gets a little overwhelming for her because she's with me and we'll be either at dinner, we'll be at a party, and I start talking to somebody and she goes away and comes back, and we're deep into this conversation about how their mother passed away or the complexities of certain situations. I just find that that's sort of a natural thing that's happening. Cathy Spatuzzi: You have a gift. Dr. Bob: I don't know it's a gift, but it's an interesting phenomenon, so. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah. Dr. Bob: Do you have any experiences that were either challenging or really beautiful that you want to share? Cathy Spatuzzi: My maternal grandmother, Jenny, she was 80 years old. She fell and broke her hip. I was her guardian because my mother had already passed away years ago, which is a whole another story. But I was in the nursing home room right beside my grandmother, and she was dying. I could see her coming in and out of what I call crossing the veil. She wasn't exactly sleeping, but she was testing the veil and then coming back. She'd come back, and she'd say, "Oh, Cathy, you're here," and then we would talk and I was able to tell her how grateful I was for all the time that I got to spend with her closely after my mother died. She said, "Oh, I want to die," and I said, "Okay, I don't want you to suffer. It's okay." She said, "But I don't want to leave you." I said, "Grandma, it's okay. I'm going to be fine." Then the next day she died. So, and I've heard this similar kind of story from several other people and the person that's dying just needs permission. Dr. Bob: But you weren't there when she actually died? Cathy Spatuzzi: No, I wasn't in the room when she died. I was there the day before. Sometimes they don't want to die with you in the room. Dr. Bob: Yup, that happens frequently. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes, yes. Dr. Bob: Which is hard, which is a challenge because you don't want to leave. A lot of times people don't want to leave. They feel like they're supposed to be there through the very end, to the last breath, and it's hard to know what's happening. So there are times when someone does step away, they go to the bathroom, they run out to get something for somebody, and they slip away, and that's the way it's meant to be. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes, I agree. Dr. Bob: Yeah. When you describe … what was the word you used? Cathy Spatuzzi: Crossing the veil or testing, testing the veil. Dr. Bob: Crossing the veil. Testing the veil. Can you share a bit more about that? What made you believe that she was testing the veil and not just like napping or falling asleep briefly? Cathy Spatuzzi: I can't describe it any other way, but I could feel her body, her spirit, not really her physical body, but her spirit, her soul, and I didn't … I could see something but it's kind of this feel-see type of a thing, and I knew she wasn't exactly sleeping because I could feel it going out, this energy, and then coming back in. When she would come back in, you would see her body be more alert and then she'd open her eyes and then we'd talk a little bit and then … I could tell if she was sleeping versus doing this testing. Dr. Bob: Fascinating. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Cathy Spatuzzi: It was great. Dr. Bob: That's great, yeah. I hear about, read about and I've seen people who I believe are in that place. Testing the veil, I haven't heard that description, but I like it. I truly believe that as people get closer to death, they're in two worlds, right? Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes. Dr. Bob: They cross. They slip back and forth. So if we really believe that, then it certainly gives us a little bit more comfort and assurance that there is something on the other side because that's what they're testing, that's what they're exploring. I've seen people in the last moments or hours of life reaching out, talking about people who they see, loved ones, and I know that a lot of people would write that off as hallucinations, as due to medications. They're not really there. But I completely believe that they are making a connection with the spirit world and those who they are going to be reunited with on the other side. I can't prove it. I know that there are books written about it, a number of good books, and we can put some of those resources on the website to share, but I implore people, I welcome you to read some of these things because it really does provide quite a bit of comfort. If you're uncertain or you're worried about everything just ending or what might happen after death, reading about the experiences of people who fully believe that they were on the other side and came back to be able to tell about it can be very reassuring. Cathy Spatuzzi: Even the people that have been in terrible car accidents and then they've been rushed into the surgical room, and they have a story that they're up on the ceiling watching their body being operated on and then after that, they come back in, and they come and tell their story. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Cathy Spatuzzi: So, yes, it seems like a very pleasant place. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yeah, but I guess- Dr. Bob: No, I don't think I have ever heard anybody come back and say, "Wow, that was really bad. I mean that was like fire and brimstone, and I don't want to go there." Of course, as a physician, I'm supposed to be very scientifically minded. I know there's a lot of cynics, a lot of skeptics, and everyone is welcome to their own beliefs and opinions. I choose to believe that there is something beautiful waiting for us and you have the ability; we have the ability to access it on this side. I do believe that the walls become more permeable, the closer we get to death. I feel that comforts me and apparently, you've had experiences where you feel the same. Cathy Spatuzzi: Yes. Yes. Dr. Bob: Yeah. So I just want to ask one last question before we wrap it up. What's most important to you in life? Because this is life and death. We talked about death. We've also talked about the way that you enhance people's lives, which is incredible. But for you personally, what is the most important thing for you in life that makes life really beautiful for you? Cathy Spatuzzi: Being present as best I can in the moment and being kind to myself and being kind to others. Dr. Bob: That's a good way to be, and you are doing that incredibly well. Cathy Spatuzzi: Thank you, Dr. Bob. It's a pleasure. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Thank you for being with us. I look forward to having you back on another time if you're willing? Cathy Spatuzzi: Sure, yeah. Thanks for inviting me. Dr. Bob: All right, you have a good day. Thanks, everybody for tuning in. Cathy Spatuzzi: Bye. Dr. Bob: Bye-bye.

Please Note:  This was recorded as a Facebook Live earlier this year prior to the recent ruling to overturn the California End of Life Options Act 2015 by Riverside County Superior Court Judge. In response, California Attorney General Xavier Becerra filed an emergency appeal seeking a stay of Superior Court Judge Daniel Ottolia's ruling that invalidated the less than two-year-old medical aid-in-dying law.  "It is important to note the ruling did not invalidate the law or the court would have said so explicitly in its order, so the law remains in effect until further notice," said John C. Kappos, a partner in the O'Melveny law firm representing Compassion & Choices. If this law and the right to die with dignity is important to you, we urge you to learn more from Compassion and Choices the organization that helped get the law passed.  Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text.  We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Need more information? Contact Dr. Bob for a free consultation. Transcript Dr. Bob: On this episode, Elizabeth Semenova and I speak very frankly about what it's like to support people through Medical Aid and Dying. We explain the process; we discuss who asks for this kind of support and why there are still so many barriers. This was originally captured as a Facebook Live and repurposed as a podcast because this information is so vitally important. Please share the podcast with everyone and anyone you feel would benefit from listening. Thank you. Dr. Bob: I'm going to do a little bit of introduction for myself, if you're watching this and you have been on the integrated MD Care site, you probably know a bit about me. I've been a physician for 25/ 30 years, somewhere in that range. Over the past several years I've been focusing on providing care for people who are dealing with complex illnesses, the challenges of aging, the challenges of dying. During these few years, I've discovered a lot of gaps in the health care system that cause a lot of challenges for people. Dr. Bob: We developed a medical practice to try to address those big challenges in those big gaps that we've encountered. It's been really remarkable to be able to do medical care in a way that is truly sensitive to what people are really looking for and what their families are looking for that is not constrained and limited to what the medical system will allow. It's not constrained by what Medicare will pay, what insurance will pay. We allow people to access us completely and fully and we are there to support them in a very holistic way with medical physician care, nursing care, social working care and then a whole team of therapists. Massage therapists, music therapists, acupuncturists, nutritionists. Dr. Bob: So that has been really fascinating and phenomenal. Elizabeth came along in the last several months. Really, she was drawn primarily to the true end of life care that we deliver and has been truly surprised how beautifully we are able to care for people who aren't necessarily dying as well. Elizabeth: Absolutely, yeah. Dr. Bob: So we can talk about all the different aspects of that, but we are here today to really talk about Medical Aid and Dying. Because, shortly after we started this practice, back in January 2016 California became one of the few states in the United States that does allow physician-assisted death. Dr. Bob: It allows what is also known as Death with Dignity, Medical Aid in Dying. The California End of Life Option Act passed in June 2016. At that point, a person with a terminal illness, an adult who is competent, had the ability to request a prescription of medicine from their physician, from a physician. That if taken, would allow them to have a very peaceful, dignified death at a place and time of their choosing. Since June 2016 we have become essentially experts and kind of the go-to team in San Diego for sure and actually throughout a good portion of Southern California because other physicians are reluctant to participate or because the systems that the patients are in make it very difficult or impossible for them to take advantage of this law. There is a lot of confusion about it. It's a very complex, emotionally charged issue. We as a team, Elizabeth and I, along with other members of our team have taken it upon ourselves to become true experts and guides so that people can get taken care of in a way that is most meaningful and sensitive. In a way that allows them to be in control and determine the course of their life leading up to their death and how they are going to die. That's why we are here. We want to educate; we want to inform, we want people to not be afraid of the unknowns. We want to dispel the myths. I'm passionate about that. We work together, and I think we do a very good job as a team, of supporting patients and families. I'd like to have Elizabeth share a little about why this is so important to her and then we are going to get into some more of the specifics about what's actually taking place, the requirements, how the process works and if there are questions people have we are going to answer those as well. We are going to go for about 20/ 25 minutes, and if it turns out that we don't get through enough of our material then we will have another session, but we don't want to make this too long. We want to make it concise, meaningful and impactful. Elizabeth: Okay. Dr. Bob: All right. Elizabeth: Okay. I started as a hospice social worker, and I became an advocate for Aid and Dying because I learned about the law. Learned that there were not a lot of options, policies, procedures in place, in Southern California when I started working in hospice for people to take advantage of and participate in the End of Life Option Act. Elizabeth: There were very, very, very few resources. There were no phone numbers to call of people who would answer questions. There were no experts who, well not no experts, who thoroughly understood the law but it was very hard to access that information. Elizabeth: I did my best to find it and became connected with some groups and some individuals who were experienced with and understood the law and became really passionate about pursuing advocacy and allowing as many people to have access to that information as possible. I started working on sharing that information and being a resource and learning everything that I could so that other people could have that. How I became connected with Integrated MD care and with you, I found you as a resource for another client, and we started having conversations, and I learned that it was possible to be supportive of people through this process through the work you were doing and I took the opportunity to become a part of it. We have done a lot to support a lot of people, and it's become a really special part of our work and my life. Dr. Bob: Why is it so important to you? Why is it so important to you for people to have access and the information? Elizabeth: I really believe that every life can only be best lived if you know all of the options that you have available to you. So how can you make choices without information? Right? So when it comes to something like this which is a life and death situation, quite literally, there are limited resources for people to make informed choices. What could possibly be more important than having access to information about what your legal rights are to how you live and die? With California only having begun this process of Aid and Dying. Exploring different perspectives and legal options and philosophical positions on the subject, I think it's really important to open that conversation and to allow people who support it as well as people who are against it to have those conversations and to explore how they feel about it and why. Then of course for the people who want to participate, who want information, resources, support in the process they have every legal right to it, in my opinion, they have every moral right to it and if there are no other people who are willing to support them I feel it is my duty to do that. Dr. Bob: Awesome. And you do it well. Elizabeth: Thank you. Dr. Bob: Yeah it's kind of crazy to think we have this legal process in place. People have spoken up and said, we want to have access to this, and we believe it's the right thing. Despite the fact that we have a law in place that allows it, it was so difficult, and it's still is to some degree, but especially in the beginning, it was like a vast wasteland. If somebody wanted to find out how to access this process, no one could really give them adequate information. There were organizations that would tell them what the process is and how it happens but there was no one stepping up to say 'I'll support you.' There were no physicians, and there was no one who was willing to give the name of a physician who was willing. It was very frustrating in the beginning of this process, in the first, I would say, the first year and a half. Still, to some degree, getting the right information, getting put in touch with those who will support it is difficult or impossible. Even some of the hospital systems that do support Medical Aid and Dying their process is very laborious, and there are so many steps that people have to go through that in many cases they can't get through it all. Our practice we are filling a need. Our whole purpose in being is to fill the gaps in health care that cause people to struggle. One of my mantras is 'Death is inevitable, suffering is not.' Right. We are all going to die, but death does not have to be terribly painful or a struggle. It can be a beautiful, peaceful, transformative process. We've been involved in enough End of Life scenarios that I can say that with great confidence that given the right approach, the right information, the right guidance, the right support it can always be a comfortable and essentially beautiful process. Elizabeth: Something that is important too also is to have people who have experience with these processes these struggles that people have. Not just anyone can make it an easy process. Not just anyone can make it a smooth process. You have to have it those obstacles you have experienced what the difficulties are and where the glitches are and in order to be able to fill those gaps you have to know where they are. Dr. Bob: Right. Elizabeth: Sometimes that comes from just falling into the hole and climbing out which is something we have experienced a few times. Dr. Bob: Having been through it enough times to... and of course we will come across- Elizabeth: More... Dr. Bob: Additional obstacles but we'll help...and that doesn't just apply to the Medical Aid and Dying it applies to every aspect of health care, which of course, becomes more complex and treacherous as people's health becomes more complicated and their conditions become more dire, and their needs increase. Hospice, yes it's a wonderful concept, and it's a wonderful benefit, but in many cases, it's not enough. Palliative Care, in theory, great concept, we need more Palliative Care physicians and teams and that kind of an approach, but in many cases, it's not enough. What we are trying to do is figure out how to be enough. How people can get enough in every scenario. We are specifically here talking about Medical Aid and Dying. In California, the actual law is called The End of Life Option Act. It was actually signed into law by Governor Brown in October 2015, and it became effective June 9th, 2016. I'll note that just yesterday the Governor of Hawaii signed the bill to make Medical Aid and Dying legal in Hawaii. The actual process will begin January 1st, 2019. There is a period of time, like there was in California, a waiting period, while they're getting all the processes in place and the legal issues dealt with. Elizabeth: Which you would think, that would be the time frame that health care intuitions would establish policies, would determine what they were going to do and how they were going to help. Dr. Bob: One would think. Elizabeth: You would think. Dr. Bob: Didn't happen here. Elizabeth: That didn't happen here. Dr. Bob: So maybe Hawaii will learn from what happened in California recently when all of a sudden June 9th comes, and still nobody knows what to do. What we are becoming actually, is a resource for people throughout California. Because we have been through this so many times now and we have such experience, we know where the obstacles are, we know where this landscape can be a bit treacherous. But, if you understand how to navigate it doesn't have to be. Elizabeth: We have become a resource not just for individuals who are interested in participating or who want to find out if they qualify but for other healthcare institutions who are trying to figure out how best to support their patients and their loved ones. TO give them without the experience that they need without having the experience of knowing what this looks like. Dr. Bob: Yup. Training hospice agencies. Training medical groups. At the heart of it, we just want to make sure that people get what they deserve, what they need and what they deserve and what is their legal right. If we know that there is somebody who can have an easier more supported, more peaceful death, we understand how incredibly valuable that is, not just for the patient but for the family. For the loved ones that are going to go on. So let's get into some of the meat of this. I'm going to ask you; we can kind of trade-off. Elizabeth: Okay. Dr. Bob: I'll ask you a question. Elizabeth: Okay. Dr. Bob: You ask me a question. Elizabeth: Okay. Dr. Bob: All right. If you don't know the answer, I'd be very surprised. In general who requests General Aid and Dying? Elizabeth: A lot of the calls we get are from people who qualify. So I don't know if you wanna go over the qualifications... Dr. Bob: We will. Elizabeth: Okay. Dr. Bob: That's the next question. Who is eligible. Elizabeth: Sorry. A lot of the people who call are individuals who are looking to see if they qualify and want to know what the process is. There are people who are family members of ill and struggling individuals, who wanna support them in getting the resources they might need. There are some people who just want the information. There are some people who desperately need immediate support and attention. Dr. Bob: Do you find, cause you get a lot of these calls initially, do you find that it's more often the patient looking for the information or is it usually a family member? Elizabeth: It's 50/50. Dr. Bob: Oh 50/50. Elizabeth: I think it depends a lot on where the patient is in the process and how supportive the family members are. Some people have extremely supportive family members who are willing to make all the phone calls and find all the resources and put in all the legwork. Some people don't, and they end up on their own trying to figure out what to do and how to do it. There are some people who are too sick to put in the energy to make 15 phone calls and talk to 15 different doctor's offices to find out what the process is. A lot of people start looking for information and hit wall, after wall, after wall. They don't even get to have a conversation about what this could look like, much less find someone who is willing to support them in it. Dr. Bob: Great, thank you. So who is eligible? Who does this law apply to? That's pretty straightforward, at least in appearance. An adult 18 or older. A resident of California. Who is competent to make decisions. Has a terminal illness. Is able to request, from an attending physician, the medication that if taken, will end their life. Pretty much 100% of the time. The individual has to make two requests, face to face with the attending physician and those requests need to be at least 15 days apart. If somebody makes an initial request to meet and I determine that they are a resident of California, they are an adult, they are competent, and they have a medical condition that is deemed terminal (I'll talk more about what that means) if I see them on the 1st, the 2nd request can happen on the 16th. It can't happen any sooner. The law requires a 15 day waiting period. That can be a challenge for some people, and we will talk a bit about that as well. In addition to the two requests of the attending physician, the person needs to have a consulting physician who concurs that they have a terminal illness and that they are competent to make decisions and the consulting physician meets with them, makes a determination and signs a form. The patient also signs a written request form that is essentially a written version of the verbal request and they sign that and have two people witness it. That's the process. Once that's completed, the attending physician can submit a prescription if the patient requests it at that time to the pharmacy. Certain pharmacies are willing to provide these medications, and many aren't. But, the physician submits the prescription to the pharmacy, and when the patient wants to have the prescription filled, they request that the pharmacy fill it and the pharmacy will make arrangements to have it delivered to the patient. The prescription can stay at the pharmacy for a period of time without getting filled, or it can be filled and be brought to the patient, and at that point, the patient can choose to take it or not. The patient needs to be able to ingest it on their own. They have to be able to drink the medication, it's mixed into a liquid form. They need to be able to drink five to six ounces of liquid, and it can be through a glass or through a straw. If the patient can't swallow, but they have a tube-like either a gastric tube or a feeding tube as long as they can push the medication through the tube, then they are eligible. The law states that no one can forcibly make the patient take it. They have to be doing it on their own volition, willingly. Okay. So, that's pretty much the process. Is there anything that I left out? What is a terminal illness? That is a question that is often asked. For this purpose, a terminal illness is a condition that is likely or will likely end that person's life in six months if the condition runs its natural course. Most of the patients that we see requesting Medical Aid and Dying have cancer. They have cancer that is considered terminal. Meaning there is no cure any longer. It's either metastasized, or it involves structures that are so critical that will cure them. In most cases, there is no treatment that will allow them to live with a meaningful quality of life, past six months. Of course, it's difficult to say to the day, when somebody is going to die, but there has to be a reasonable expectation that condition can end their life within six months. We also see a number of people with ALS, Lou Gehrig's disease, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis. That's a particularly sensitive scenario because those people lose their ability to function, they lose their motor function, and as it gets progressively, further along, they lose their ability to swallow. They can lose their ability to speak and breathe. The time frame of that condition can be highly variable. We see people with advanced heart disease, congestive heart failure, advanced lung disease other neurologic diseases. Elizabeth: The gamut. Dr. Bob: We see the gamut, but those are the majority. We've talked about who's requesting this for the most part, who's eligible? A patient who is competent has a terminal diagnosis and is an adult resident of California. We talked about the requirements, what's the process. Let's talk a little bit about the challenges that we've identified or that other people have identified. At the very beginning of this process, I became aware that the law was going to begin taking effect just a few months after I started my medical practice at Integrated MD Care and I figured great this is progressive. We are kind of like Oregon, we are going to have this option available, and I felt like it was the right thing. I've always felt like people should have more control and be able to be more self-determining. Especially at end of life. Who's life is it? Right? Who are we to tell somebody that they have to stay alive longer than they want to. That never made sense to me. I think if you're not in this world of caring for people at end of life or you haven't had an experience with your family. Most people figure when people are dying they get taken care of adequately. Hospice comes in, and they take care of things. IN some cases that's true. In many cases, it is the furthest thing from the truth. People struggle and suffer. Patients struggle and suffer, families suffer and if we have another option, if we have other options available wouldn't we be giving them credence? My answer is yes, we should. So when the law was coming into effect, I figured physicians would be willing to support patients because it's the right thing. I just assumed people would go to their doctors and say 'we now have this law, can you help me' and the doctors would say 'of course.' It didn't quite work out that way. Now I understand why I see it more clearly. People started calling me to ask for my support, and I started meeting with them and learning about what they were going through and learning about all of the struggles they've had through their illness and trying to get support with what is now their legal right and they were getting turned away by doctor, after doctor, after doctor. I learned what I needed to learn about the process and I started supporting a few patients here and there. As time went on, I saw A)what an incredibly beautiful, beautiful process it is. What an extraordinary peaceful end of life we could help people achieve and the impact that it has on the families was so incredibly profound that I know that this was something that I needed to continue supporting. With the hope that other physicians would come on board and there wouldn't be such a wasteland and so much struggle because I can only take care of some many people. Well, it's a year and a half later, and I do think things have- Elizabeth: Improved. Improved some. Some of the hospital systems in San Diego certainly, have developed policies and process to support patients through the Aid and Dying, sometimes it can still be laborious and cumbersome, and hiccups occur that create great challenges and struggles. But what we've developed is a process that is so streamlined. Like Elizabeth mentions, we've come across so many of these obstacles and these issues that couldn't have really been anticipated. That have to do with hospice agencies not wanting to be supportive. Of not being able o find a consulting physician for various reasons. Coroners and medical examiners not understanding anything about this process. So we've had to be educating them to make sure that the police don't show up at somebodies house in the middle of the night. It's become a real passion for both of us and our whole team. To be able to do this and to be able to do this really well, as well as it could possibly be done. More doctors are coming on board and being open to this. I'll tell yeah, I'm not so sure that's the right thing, and we have thoughts about that. I've been talking a lot, so I wanna sit back and let you talk, take a sip of my coffee and I wanna hear your thoughts on- Elizabeth: Other doctors. Dr. Bob: Other doctors and how they perceive this. Why we may not just want every doctor- Elizabeth: Doing it. Dr. Bob: Doing it. Elizabeth: I think it's really important that other doctors be open to it. Especially open to the conversations. I think one of the things that has been the most important for me is to help people start those conversations with their doctors, with their families, with other healthcare providers. A lot of the doctors are restricted by policies where they work or by moral objections or just by not really being familiar and being concerned that they might misstep. I think that having doctors come on board first in terms of conversations is fantastic. Then also learning the process is important. As simple as it is in the way that you described it it's more complex than that. There are a lot of small details, paperwork, and requirements. Things have to be done a certain way in order to be compliant with the law. There are aspects of supporting the family. This is a very unique experience. If you as a physician don't have time to have longer conversations with patients and families, if you don't have time to provide anticipatory support and relief for the grieving process or for the dying process, it can be a struggle for the patients and families to go through this even if they have the legal support that they need. I think that that's one of the things you were referring to in terms of why it's not necessarily good for everybody to come on board. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Because if they say that they will support a patient and be their attending physician through this process, they could start the process and then come across some of these hurdles that they don't know what to do with and it could completely derail the process. It's too critical when patients finally feel that they now have this option available to them, that they see the light at the end of the tunnel, every little misstep and every little delay, is- Elizabeth: Excruciating. Dr. Bob: Excruciating. We see that happening over and over again. So when people find us and we assure them, we will help you get through this without any more hiccups, without anything getting derailed, they are very cynical. We tell them- Elizabeth: They've been so many doctors, they've been to doctors who've said... Dr. Bob: They've been screwed, they've... Elizabeth: We will help you, and they haven't gotten the help that they need. Dr. Bob: There is nothing that's more painful for somebody, an individual or a family member who's finally come around to wanting to support mom or dad or husband or a wife or a child and then to have it be taken away from them or threatened. We make ourselves available. There are times when we say we are available for you anytime, day or night; you can contact us. They start calling us; I've gotten calls at 2 in the morning from somebody just to say I just wanted to make sure you were really there. That you really would respond. They can't wait to get to the endpoint. Not even because they are ready to take the medication but because they are ready to have the peace of mind and the security of knowing that they have an easy out, rather than have to struggle to the bitter end. Elizabeth: This is really about empowering the patient and the family. This is all about providing them with the opportunity to do what they want to do with their life. To live it the way they want to live it and to end it the way they want to end it. Not in a way that is incongruent with their moral, ethical, spiritual life choices. In a way that supports the way that they've lived, the principals they've lived by and the things that matter to them. I would also say that the difficulties that doctors have had and the struggles that we've had in working with other physicians it's not because they don't care about their patients. It's not because they don't want the best thing for them. Maybe they disagree with what the best thing is, or maybe they feel that they are not able to provide sufficient support. There are a lot of really good doctors who aren't able, for whatever reason, to do this. Dr. Bob: That's a great point. I think a part of it is that sometimes they work for organizations that won't allow them to, and that happens often. Then they don't understand the process; they are intimidated by it. They don't want to mess it up. And, they are so busy that they feel like it's going to require too much time out of their day. Elizabeth: Which it does. Dr. Bob: Which it can, and they don't have any way to bill for that. They feel like they are going to be doing everybody a disservice. But unfortunately, that often leads to the patients being in this state of limbo and not knowing where to turn. Elizabeth: Thinking that they maybe they have started in the process and Dr. Bob: Not, we have certainly seen that. Elizabeth: Discovering later that they haven't. Dr. Bob: So we are going to close it down here shortly. One of the things, and you spoke about empowerment, and how really important that is, both for the patients and for the families. One thing that I've recognized, so now I've assessed and supported well over a hundred patients through this process. I've been with many of these people when they've taken the medication and died. So, I've seen how beautiful and peaceful it is. It literally in most cases, a lot of times there's laughter and just a feeling of incredible love and connection that occurs with the patient and the family in the moments leading up to that. Even after they have ingest the medication we have people who are expressing such deep gratitude and love and even laughing during the time because they are getting freed. They are not afraid, they are almost rushing towards this because it's going to free them. Most of the time they fall asleep within a matter of minutes and die peacefully within 20 to 30 minutes. Sometimes sooner. Occasionally a bit longer. But, if anyone is wondering if there is struggle or pain or flopping around in the death throws. None of that. This is truly...this is how I want to go when it's my time. The one thing that seems very consistent with the patients that I've care for through this process is, they have a physical condition that is ravaging their bodies. Their bodies are decaying, they are declining, they are not functioning. Their bodies are no longer serving them. But their spirit, is still strong. They have to be competent to be able to make this decision. Most of the time they are so determined to be in control of what happens to them, their spirit has always been strong. They have lost control because their bodies no longer function and that is irreconcilable for them. They cannot reconcile this strong spirit in a body that is no longer serving them and that is only going to continue getting worse. That's the other important part of this. These are people who are dying, they are not taking this medication because they are tired of living. They are taking this medication because they are dying and they don't see any reason to allow their death to be more prolonged and more painful, than it needs to be. They are empowered, and we are empowering people to live fully until their last moments and to die peacefully. My last little note here is, why do we do this? Well, that's why we do this. Elizabeth: Yeah. Dr. Bob: Because people deserve the absolute best most peaceful, most loving, death. This is in many cases, the only way to achieve that. I think we are going kinda wrap it up. We obviously are passionate about this topic. We are passionate about wanting to share the realities of it. We don't want there to be confusion, misconceptions, misunderstandings. Aid and Dying is here; it's not going away. It's going to continue to expand throughout our country. We are going to get to a place where everybody has the right to determine when their life should end peacefully when they're dying. I'm very happy and proud to be on the forefront of this. I know it's controversial, I imagine there are people who think that I'm evil and I'm okay with that because I know. I see the gratitude that we get from so many patients and families. When we go out and speak to groups about this the vast majority of people are so supportive and Elizabeth: Sort of relieved, even the professionals are so relieved. We have a patient, we have been helping another doctor support that patient, and he's so relieved and so friendly and so grateful just to be able to provide the support that he wouldn't otherwise be able to provide. It's not just the patients; it's everybody we engage on this, it's really amazing. Dr. Bob: Thank you. It really is an honor to watch you engage with the patients and families and to be as supportive of what we're doing. It's remarkable. Elizabeth: Thank you. Dr. Bob: We will talk about some of the options that people have when they don't qualify for Aid and Dying because there are other options. We wanted to address some of those options as well but not on this live; we'll do that maybe next time. Thanks for tuning in, have an awesome day, and we will see you soon, take care. Photo Credit:  CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION/WIKIMEDIA COMMONS PUBLIC DOMAIN  

  Dr. Karen Wyatt founded the End-of-Life University. Hear how her father's suicide lead her to learn about hospice and a career that focuses on helping educate people about end-of-life care. Contact End of Life University Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text.  We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Transcript Dr. Bob: On this episode, I'm speaking with Dr. Karen Wyatt. Dr. Wyatt is a family practice physician who specialized in hospice medicine for many years, and more recently has created the End of Life University, which is an online site that provides education and tools for people to learn about and become more comfortable with approaching end of life and having the most peaceful and dignified end of life possible. She's also an author, has written several books, including What Really Matters, Seven Lessons for Living From the Stories of the Dying. She also wrote a book called the Tao of Death and A Matter of Life and Death. She is a speaker and a great advocate for excellent, compassionate end of life care. During our interview, there were a couple of little connectivity issues, so there's a couple of very brief glitches. I hope it doesn't take away from the valuable content. You'll get some phenomenal insight and inspiration from this interview. Thanks for tuning in. Thank you, Karen, for being on our show today. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Hi, Bob. Thank you so much for having me. Dr. Bob: We had a chance to talk a couple of weeks age when I was interviewed for your podcast, and it was a great conversation. I think we both recognize that we have so much alignment, so many things in common regarding our careers and kind of where our priorities are, where our visions are trying to take us. You probably see this as well. Most of the people who are really passionate about providing great care for people at end of life have a personal experience or a personal story that kind of fuels their drive and their passion for that. I know you have one as well. Can you share a bit about how you became so aware of the importance of providing really phenomenal end of life care and making appropriate preparations? What's your story? Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yes. I'm happy to share that, Bob. It started for me a long time ago, when I was just a young doctor, brand new in medical practice, and I had trained in family medicine, but honestly had no training whatsoever in end of life issues. I hadn't received any ... at all around death and dying, which is shocking really when I look back and think about that. I really didn't have any knowledge or awareness of end of life issues and what was happening in that arena. But at that time I was in my early 30s, and my own father committed suicide, which was a horrific tragedy for me and my entire ... , but particularly devastating to me, because I was a doctor, because I had done extra training in psychiatry, just so that I could treat people with depression, and I had worked with some suicidal patients in my practice. The fact that I couldn't help my own father just completely tore me apart and really caused me to question, "Am I even a good doctor? Should I even be doing medicine?" I floundered for about three years with just overwhelming guilt and grief after my dad's death. One day I got the idea to call hospice, even though at that time I wasn't even really sure what hospice did. I knew so little about it, but this inspiration just popped into my head, "Call hospice." I called and had a chat with them, the hospice in my community, to see if I could volunteer in any way. It turns out their medical director had just resigned 30 minutes before I called, and so she said, "Actually, we have a job for you right now." Knowing almost nothing about hospice, or death and dying, or end of life care, I became a hospice medical director. From that moment on, my training started in really learning about dying. I was trained by the nurses. Our hospice at that time had nurses who had worked there for 10 and 15 years, caring for dying patients. I just followed them everywhere. I sat with them, and I just soaked up all this wisdom, and experience, and knowledge from them, all things that, looking back, I know I should have learned as a doctor. It was embarrassing that, as a doctor, I knew so little, but once I started making home visits to patients in hospice, I realized this is where I'm meant to be. This is the kind of medicine I was meant to do all along. It felt like I was home in a way like I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing now. It was a huge relief to me professionally to be finally offering the kind of care I wanted to give. I loved the fact that hospice was team-oriented, so I got to work with other people, with nurses, and home health aides, and the social work, and the chaplain, and we would all meet together to provide care as a team. That really fit perfectly with how I thought care should be offered to all patients, not just end of life patients. I spent many years doing hospice full time. I left family practice, did only hospice for a number of years. I just had profound experiences there, and I can say really by just immersing myself in death and dying is the way I found my way through that horrible grief and guilt that I was carrying after my dad's death. Long story, but as it goes, I ended up deciding I wanted to write a book about patients I had cared for. ... It took me many, many years to actually do that, find the time and get the book written, but I finally got that done, and I ended up leaving medicine in order to start writing. That happened eight years ago. Now I haven't been in clinical practice. I've been doing more writing, and speaking, and educating for the past eight years. Dr. Bob: Do you feel like the time you have devoted to A, caring for patients and being a part of that amazing hospice team and the work that you've done as a teacher and a writer, have you eased your conscience? Have you gotten to a place where you're not feeling guilty about what happened at this point? How has that worked? Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yeah. I would say it's much better now ... what I've begun to see over time, and it took a lot of years, is my dad was on his own path. He made his own choice and that really I couldn't have interrupted it. It was his decision, and he was determined to do what he did, and that my life intersected with my dad's life, because I was on my path, and his death is really what shifted me I think to a place I needed to be and a place I needed to go, and that without his death, I probably would never have ended up in hospice, and not that I'm saying that's a justification or the reason why my dad died, but it all fit together in that way and kind of brought me to a place where I needed to be. So, I was able to let go of feeling responsible for my dad, and allow my dad the responsibility for his own choices, and feel like I at least was able to make something beautiful out of the tragedy that happened. Dr. Bob: That experience, it's interesting, because I talk to so many people who go through a death, they go through what's a tragic loss, and ultimately there's something powerful and amazing that comes out of that. I couldn't say that that's ubiquitous, and it happens in every case, but I know a number of people, and myself included, where death has resulted in a transformation of some sort that clearly would not have taken place without the death having occurred. I think about the silver lining of life and death. For myself, the first real, peaceful death that I ever encountered or was part of that experience was my friend, Darren Farwell, who died at 32 back in 2001, and for me that was what planted the seed of wanting to provide this amazing type of care to people, you know, this interdisciplinary, holistic, compassionate type of care, because I got exposed to hospice for the first time. Then additionally, his wife ended up creating a foundation to help ... He died of melanoma, and his wife, Rhonda, created a foundation to help support education about the dangers of the sun and then built a company called UV Skinz that makes UV protective clothing and swimwear, which has grown into a phenomenal company. I see these UV Skinz being worn all over the beaches of San Diego and Hawaii. I talked to so many people over time who have been able to make something remarkable happen as a result of having experienced a death in their life. I'm assuming that you've had similar experiences. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Oh, yes. So many times, through the interviews that I do as well for End of Life University and just people that I've met, in this grief work really, that sometimes as our way of working through grief we take up a project or make a change in our lives. It can be profound, but all of these people, as you're describing, talk the same way, that it was a transformation for them. They really feel like they became the person they were meant to be, who they were meant to be, true path, true calling, once they worked through the grief that they experienced from tragedy. Dr. Bob: Interesting. It's not necessarily the death, the loss, the change that occurs because of that. It's the work that goes into the grief process and sort of the rebuilding of a life after the loss. I'm sure it's all part of it, right? Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yeah. Dr. Bob: But I guess that's probably an important component of it, the work that goes in, and what we learn about ourselves, and the other support that we may get that guides us after that experience. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yeah. So true. It all fits together, but I think death really awakens us and helps us learn to cherish life and then make the most of it too when it hits us that wait a minute. I won't be here forever. This is limited. I need to make sure that I make the most of every moment that I have. Dr. Bob: I mean, wouldn't it be nice if somebody could have that awareness and gain that awareness without having to go through that experience? I guess maybe that's partly what we're trying to do, right? Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yeah. I've wondered about that, like is it really possible for someone to grasp that? But yes. I think most of the information I disseminate has that purpose behind it, that if only someone hears this, will learn something, will open their eyes a little bit and recognize that natural part of life for everyone, so they need to pay attention to it and be aware of it. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Well, the work that you're doing now, you're very prolific. You're putting out a lot on your website, and you're creating groups. I know you created The Year of Reading Dangerously, a book club to help people get exposed to books that are out there that could give them a new perspective and bring more value. Can you share a little bit about what you've experienced through creating that one program? I know there are others, but I wanted to kind of focus a little bit on that one. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yes. Well, it's interesting. I got the idea at the end of last year. It would be really cool to do an online reading group or book club, because I had written a blog post about how to start an end of life book club in your community, and I heard back from several people that because of that blog post, they had done a year-long book group, reading books about death and dying. I thought, "But what if I could do it online and have a bigger group [inaudible 00:14:15]?" I had no idea if it would resonate with people if anyone would even be interested and would sign up. I just posted it right around New Year's Day. I posted a little message on Facebook, you know, for my Facebook followers and said, "I'm starting this reading group. You can sign up here if you're interested." That was right before I went to bed one night, and I woke up in the morning, and ... already ... reading group, and within a week I think I had 600 people on the list. That post about the reading group had been shared 57 times, so people were sharing it with other people they knew. Now we have 830 people who signed up for the reading group. We're just reading one book each month during the year of 2018. ... Each month I'm doing a conference call discussion of the book. Most of the authors of the books I've chosen for this year have agreed to come on the call and actually be there for a Q&A session. Dr. Bob: Oh. That's phenomenal. Dr. Karen Wyatt: It's really exciting and really fun. I've been fascinated to see the people who are joining the group. At first, I thought it'll just be all the same people. It'll be all the same people that already do this work who are interested, but I'm getting a lot of people are writing in on the Facebook group, "I know that it's time for me to start looking at death and dying, and I thought this would be a good way to get introduced to it." I'm excited. It was just a fun, little experiment, but it turns out that it does seem to be something people are looking for. Dr. Bob: Well, clearly. I'm part of that group now as well. It seems like there really is a growing sense of desire for people to connect around the topic of death and dying. I started a meetup here in San Diego as well, called Reimagining End of Life Care. The idea is I just want to bring people together from all different walks of life who are interested in talking about, sharing ideas, looking at the issues, trying to bring their own unique perspective and gifts, whether that's a nurse, or a doctor, or a social worker, or an Uber driver, or somebody out in the community. There are 120 people in the first couple of days joined this meetup group, because I think it's just something that's sparking interest. People are getting more comfortable exploring. I think people recognize that if you just allow things to happen by default, there's a good chance that they won't go well. There's more awareness of that. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yes. Definitely. I think this interest has really grown just in the last three to four years. I don't know if you've experienced that, but it seems like there's momentum now behind it. More and more people are starting to wake up and be at least less afraid of talking about death and dying. They might still be afraid of death itself, but they're less avoidant of the subject now. Dr. Bob: I think that there's growing awareness. There are the death cafes that are popping up. I guess I'm a little bit unsure whether it's just the world that I'm living in, and so I'm much more aware of it, or if it's really happening. I'm going to assume that it's really happening. I'm going to make that decision to choose to believe that it's happening, and we are part of that momentum, and we can help I think, through our experiences and through our desires, try to help to guide people to understand what they can do, what each individual can do to have A, the best possible end of life experience for themselves, to help guide others in their sphere of influence. I think like you clearly believe that the best way to have a good experience or the best chances of having a good experience is to be ready, is to be prepared, is to understand what the potential issues are, what you need to put in place to make sure that you have the best chances of having your end of life go the way that you would want it to go. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Exactly. If you even think about it, would you ever go on a journey to a place you've never been before without preparing for it ahead of time, without reading about it and learning what you need to do in advance before that trip? Getting ready for the end of life, it's really similar. You're just learning as much as you can and preparing yourself, so that you can make choices in the moment when you need to, and that you're ready for whatever might come up on that journey that you're going on. Dr. Bob: You know, I like that analogy. There are people who don't want to plan and are going to take a trip, and they're just going to start driving, right? They may know what their ultimate destination is, or they may not even know what the ultimate destination is, but they're okay with things just kind of happening and rolling with it. There are people who will live their life that way, and not plan, and not prepare, and take their chances. That's okay. That's your choice. The problem though with that is that if that's the way you choose to proceed, somebody may end up taking the flack for that, right? Your loved ones, your family members, somebody's may end up having to make choices that they're not prepared for and have to deal with kind of the fallout, which we see all the time, right? Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yeah. So true. Yes. Exactly. The loved ones might be left with terrible grief, and guilt, and a burden of having to make decisions, and that's something we all need to remember. How do we want our loved ones ...? How do we want to leave them when we do go? Dr. Bob: Sometimes people, they need a little bit more incentive than just doing it for themselves. We all know that it's important to plan and to create advanced healthcare, or we should all know that it's important to have advanced healthcare directed, to have a will, to have these things set up, so that your loved ones won't have to try to figure it out in the heat of things, but I think one way to help to inspire, encourage, incentivize people is make sure that they understand that they'll be gone or they'll be unconscious, but it's the people they care about who are going to potentially carry this burden and potentially carry guilt around with them and regret for the rest of their lives. Do it for them. If you're not going to take care of your documents, and your paperwork, and put things in place for yourself, do it for your children. Do it for your siblings. I think it's a really important message for us to share. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Absolutely. I do know many people who say, "I don't care that much what happens to me, so why should I plan." Your message is perfect, because you do care about what happens to your loved ones, and you want them to have as much peace of mind as possible. Dr. Bob: You've put a lot of things in place, and I really encourage everyone who's listening to go to Karen's website, because there's just a wealth of information, resources, and tools that are out there that can help people move forward with this kind of planning. Can you share a little bit about how that's all kind of come together? Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yes. I started End of Life University actually after I wrote the book, the book I mentioned of stories about hospice patients, and it came out six years ago. I decided I have to do something more than just putting a book out there in the world. That's when I started doing interviews for End of Life University with people who work in all aspects of the end of life arena. I do two interviews every month on End of Life University, and your interview is upcoming in March, the one I did with you. Then I repurpose some of those interviews and have a podcast on iTunes, just like your podcast, that comes out weekly, but I keep getting more and more ideas. I start something good [inaudible 00:23:32] new idea, like, "Oh, wait. That's not enough. I need to do something more." Besides the interviews, I created ... for end of life planning, called The Step-By-Step Roadmap to Planning for the End-of-Life. So, it's just a little course, a self-directed course that walks people through the steps they need to take in order to get their paperwork done, and I'm working on other courses right now, courses to train people to become death educators in their community, to go out and start workshops, to become an educator in their own community for their neighbors and friends. Dr. Bob: So, spreading it out, right? I mean, there's so much need, and there's so much work to be done. Obviously, it's going to take a tribe, a village, and so like me, you're bringing together a tribe of people who want to make sure that the experience at end of life is as dignified and peaceful as possible. It starts so far upstream. When we think about end of life and having a peaceful end of life, you think about those last few days or weeks, but it really is so important to be working with people either before they're diagnosed with a serious illness or at the time of diagnosis. We can't wait until just those last few days of life to put in place the things that are going to allow for a peaceful and dignified transition. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yes. That's so true. Dr. Bob: We have to have a different conversation about continuing or discontinuing treatments. I'm sure you've experienced this as well. The medical community is so reluctant or unable to dive into those deep conversations with people about the potential impact of some of the treatments or the other options that are available. I hear it all the time from patients, you know, "My doctor would never talk about that. They wouldn't go down that path with me. They only gave me this one option." I just heard from somebody yesterday who was seeing an oncologist for esophageal cancer, and when she told the oncologist that she didn't want to do yet another course of chemotherapy because the tumor was still growing ... She'd had very toxic side effects from it, and she just wanted to try to have the last few months of her life not feeling sick all the time, knowing that at some point the cancer would progress, and she would be very compromised, but she wanted this window of time. Her doctor basically told her not to come back, "There's nothing more that I can do. If you're not going to take my advice and go with my recommendations, then here's a number for hospice," which is so wrong. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Wow. Oh. Absolutely. It's heartbreaking because a patient who's been working with a doctor for sometimes year in treatment and then suddenly the doctor abandons that patient and says, "I don't want to see you again," it's tragic. Now ... doctor, who now is not going to be exposed to the actual end of life process for his patients. He's refusing to even deal with that portion of her life as it plays out, and it's really sad for that doctor, who won't get the advantage of seeing what's possible for a patient. That just breaks my heart. Dr. Bob: It did for mine as well. I hear stories like that not infrequently. In this particular patient, she wanted to access a prescription through medical aid in dying, not that she's ready to end her life, but she knows what the ultimate course of metastatic esophageal cancer is, and it's not pretty, so she wants to be prepared, have that option. She asked her oncologist if he was in support if he could help her or even guide her, and his response was, "I don't do that. Here's a number for hospice," which again, I don't want to label all ... I don't want to generalize, but I do feel that the medical community is doing a disservice to people by not recognizing that this period of time between aggressive treatment and death, it could be so much better supported, and there's so much more that can be done, but they don't understand it. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yes. I would say one of my goals ultimately is to work with my colleagues in medicine and help [inaudible 00:29:02] and open their eyes to death and dying, but I realize that may not happen until we kind of galvanize their patients. We need to ... . At the grassroots level, we need patients going to their doctors saying, "You have to talk to me about and deal with me about this." I was really thrilled a few weeks ago. I got an email from a woman who had been listening to my podcast, and she and her husband are both in their 70s. She said, "We listened to your podcast about how patients need to bring up the topic with their doctors." She said, "We brought in our  ... will, and we sat with our doctor and said, 'We want to go over this with you.'" She said, "His eyes got huge, and he backed toward the door and was saying, 'No. No. No. We don't need to talk about this.'" They insisted, so he sat down with them. He answered their questions. They went through their living wills together. In the end, he seemed grateful. He thanked them and said, "I'm glad that you brought this up." I was so thrilled. It actually does work. If patients will have the courage to insist that their doctors talk with them, I think the doctors will ultimately say, "Okay. I'll look at this with you." Dr. Bob: We might not get every one of them, but I think that's one certain definite strategy. Like you said, that physician was grateful. That very well may have shifted his practice, right? That one encounter, that one experience he might have recognized, "Wow. This is really meaningful, and this is important stuff, and it's not hard." Right? It's not all that difficult. It just takes a little bit of time. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yeah. If you haven't been introduced to it or trained to have the conversation, it feels much more intimidating, and it is in your mind, than it really is once you start talking about it. I think that becomes an obstacle to physicians to bring up the subject, but once they've done it, they can realize, oh, it actually feels comfortable, and it actually it's kind of a relief, once we get these issues out in the open and discuss it together. Dr. Bob: Well, Karen, I think you and I have a lot of good work to do, both individually and together. I think, as we've been talking about, there are some great opportunities to bring our tribes together, and continue moving the needle in the right direction, and trying to give as many people as possible the tools that they need, the inspiration they need to put in place what they can to ensure that as their life is coming to a close, as they're dealing with these health challenges, that their values and their wishes are honored. I'm really happy to be in partnership with you on that. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Same here. Same here. It's good to join forces. Dr. Bob: Yeah. You got a lot of, as we mentioned, a lot of great material and resources, so how do people tap into that? What's the best way for people to access what you've put together? Dr. Karen Wyatt: They can go to EOLUniversity.com. That's my website, EOL standing for end of life, but EOLUniversity.com. There they can connect to the podcast and blogs I've written. They can learn about upcoming interviews, find my books and courses, so I need to update that a little bit, but they should be able to find everything at EOLUniversity.com. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Well, you've done a phenomenal job. When you go to her website, don't be overwhelmed. There's a lot of information, but just take it a bit at a time. Dive in. If you're interested in, I guess in just dipping your toes in the water of this, then maybe sign up for the Year of Reading Dangerously Book Club and start with one or two of those books. We will, I'm sure, have more time, opportunities to connect and collaborate. Again, I appreciate you taking the time. I love our conversations because it's just sort of like talking to myself, but with somebody smarter. Dr. Karen Wyatt: Yeah. It's wonderful. It's wonderful for me too, Bob, to be speaking to somebody like-minded, so thanks so much for this opportunity. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Thank you for taking the time. Thank you, listeners, for tuning in. Until next time, have a wonderful day, and give your loved ones a big hug and a kiss. Take care.

Getting back into the swing of things now and Darwin is helping us with show prep. Guys acting like dogs? Naked dude jumping into Lions Den. Cicadas, Mars, Earthquakes, Volcanoes, BOB??? Oh the humanity!!! facebook.com/roganradio youtube.com/c/roganradio Opening music by longzijun https://longzijun.wordpress.com/2010/05/28/free-background-music/

Sales doesn’t have to be hard.  It can be easy, but only if you know the secrets of building profitable relationships. Join us for this incredible interview and discover the time-tested strategies and tactics for how to handle people in a way that excites them and leaves them asking for more. Bob Burg is a sought-after speaker at company leadership and sales conferences sharing the platform with everyone from today’s business leaders and broadcast personalities to even a former U.S. President. Bob is the author of a number of books on sales, marketing and influence, with total book sales of well over a million copies. His book, The Go-Giver, coauthored with John David Mann has sold over half a million copies and it has been translated into 21 languages. It is now being released in a new, expanded edition, with a foreword by Huffington Post founder and publisher, Arianna Huffington. Bob is an advocate, supporter and defender of the Free Enterprise system, believing that the amount of money one makes is directly proportional to how many people they serve. He is also an unapologetic animal fanatic, and serves on the Board of Trustees of Furry Friends Adoption & Clinic in his town of Jupiter, Florida. How To Say No When You Just Don’t Want To Do Something? Do you want to always please others? Are you afraid of hurting other people’s feelings? Are you afraid to say “NO”? What is it really about saying no that we try to avoid? As human beings, we always seem to have that instinct to please others. We often think that by saying “No” we are going to offend some one…and that it’s not appropriate or nice. It is not congruent in today’s society and our value system, to treat people with disrespect. We’re afraid of losing an important person in our life or even miss out on an opportunity. We don’t want to say “No” because others might think that we’re being unproductive. Believe it or not, we are taught to say No, and the word “No” is already a complete sentence. We are more happy and productive when we do the things that we want to do and not the things we are compelled to do. “Unless you want to do something or there is a compelling reason for you to do it, then you shouldn’t” -Bob Burg Bob Burg shares with us the secrets of being polite in this extremely valuable interview. For instance, if you don’t want to do something for whatever reason, maybe it’s due to lack of time, lack of knowledge or inclination, then just say “no” politely and thank whoever it is for asking. The reasons for saying no are your reasons and yours alone. The Results Of Saying No Politely You can say “No” and still feel good after saying it. Better yet, you can also leave the person you’re talking to with a good feeling, too – even though you’re declining their offer or request. If you don’t want to do something, you can just simply say no politely. Make sure to thank them for asking you and say how honored and humbled you are by being asked. Unless the person you’re talking to is the kind of person who gets angry for any reason, they probably can’t afford to get mad at you. If you do it right, they might even thank you for the way you turned them down. The 5 Undisputable Laws Of Business Success The Law Of Value – Your true worth is determined by how much more you give in value that you take in payment. Most people will think that this is a recipe for bankruptcy, but it’s not. To really get the concept, you might first need to understand the difference between price and value. Price - It is a dollar figure, an amount. It is finite. Value - It is the relative worth or desirability of something from the end user’s point of view. It is how you might desire a product, service, concept or idea that brings so much worth or value that you are willing to exchange your money, your time and your energy. The Law Of Compensation – Your income is determined by how many people you serve and how well you serve them. Your income is determined not just by the value you provide but how many lives you impact with value. The Law Of Influence – Your influence is determined by how abundantly you place other people’s interest first. The greatest leaders, top influencers, and the most profitable sales people run their lives and their business through the power of influence. It is all about you looking for ways to place the interest of others first. When you place other people’s interest first, it doesn’t mean that you will become a doormat, martyr or that you even have to sacrifice yourself for them…but it is seeing all things as equal. It is moving from an “I Focus” to “An Other’s Focus”. “Golden rule of business is to see all things and people as being equal, it is moving from an “I Focus” to “An Other’s Focus” Bob Burg “Be the Protégé, making your win all about the other person’s win” Bob Burg Building A Bigger, Stronger More Responsive List Of Subscribers Is The Fastest And Easiest Way To Add More Profits To Your Bottom Line.   The Law Of Authenticity – The most valuable gift you offer is yourself. Bob mentioned one of his mentors, Debra Davenport. She explained that all the skills in the world like sales, technical and people skills, as important as they are, they are all for naught if you don’t come at it from your true, authentic core. When you show up as yourself, day in and day out, week after week, month after month, you can expect that people will feel good about you. They will feel comfortable with you because they know, either in a personal or business relationship, they can like and trust you. The Law Of Reciprocity – The key to effective giving, is to be open to receiving. All the giving in the world won’t benefit you if you are not willing and able to allow yourself to receive as well. You want a sustainable life? You’ve got to breathe in and breathe out. Life is all about giving and receiving. “The key to effective giving is to be open to receiving” -Bob Burg Being A Go-Giver The common misconception about being a go-giver, especially to those who haven’t read the book yet, is that Go-Givers are just always giving themselves away. As if those people don’t care about making a profit. This is just not true. A Go-Giver type of person, gives value constantly and not just gives themselves away. In fact, Go-Givers tend to make a much larger profit that others because they sell high value rather than low price. They know that when you sell “Low price”, you become a commodity. When you sell on value, you become a resource. “A Go-Giver knows that when you sell “Low price”, you become a commodity but when you “Sell value”, you become a resource” Another misconception is that Go-Givers don’t know how to say “No”. Go-givers actually say “No” a lot. Most go-givers are very successful. Typically, they are very busy and they don’t have much time say “yes” to everyone and everything. One great thing about being a Go-giver is, they know how to say “no” in a way that honors the other person. Increase Your Income by Building Relationships with Influencers, VIPs, and Top Performers, Even If You Hate Networking 4 Master Level Lessons To live by If you want to make a lot of money in business or make a lot of money in sales, then do not use “making money” as your sole goal. Your goal should be serving others. When you achieve your goal, you’ll receive a reward. That reward can be money or an opportunity that leads to money. Of course, you can use that money in whatever way that you want - but never forget, money is NOT only the reward for hitting your target. It’s not the goal itself. The goal should be in serving others. Selling is not about you, it is always about the customer. Selling is discovering what somebody wants, what they need or desires and helping them to get it. Great leadership is never about the leader, great influence is never about the influencer and great salesmanship is never about the sales person. It is always about the other person. It is about everyone whose lives you chose to touch and lives you chose to add value to.     [content_toggle style="1" label="Click%20Here%20To%20Read%20The%20Full%20Show%20Transcript" hide_label="Hide"] Bob: Hi, I’m Bob Burg, coauthor of the Go-Giver and tonight we’ll look at how a small shift in focus can have significant results for your business. Woman: Are you in business or thinking about starting a new business and could do with a bit of help and guidance when it comes to social media? Then you’re in the right place. Social media can seem daunting and even frustrating but it doesn’t have to be. That is why we offer insights and experience from social media experts from around the world. Discover tips, tricks and information that will help you leverage the power of social media so you can start growing your business today. Welcome to social media business hour with your host Nile Nickel. Jordan: Hello and thank you again for joining us. This is Nile’s trusty sidekick and cohost Jordan and I’d like to take a moment to share with you how you could benefit from Nile’s incredible experience using social media for real business success. If you’re an entrepreneur or thinking about starting your own business then using social media might be the most cost effective and time effective way to get your business real results. That’s not to mention much of what you could do to get those terrific results on social media is even free. Take Linked In for example. Nile always says it’s the best social media platform for business today. And that’s why I recommend you go to linkedinfocus.com and start your social media education today. Sign up for Nile’s free tips, tricks and strategies. Once again, it’s free and it only takes a few seconds. Go to linkedinfocus.com today. You’ll be glad you did. Nile: Hey, welcome back and we are so excited tonight. We have a return guest Bob Burg. He was with us in episode 33. Jordan: Yes, the infamous episode 33. Nile: The infamous. As a matter of fact, we get more questions about that episode than any other episode. Jordan: That’s right. And accusation. Nile: Because everybody thinks we baited them. Jordan: That’s right. That’s right. Nile: We didn’t do that, didn’t we Bob? Bob: No, not at all. Nile: Yeah, we just haven’t got back together to sort of complete that interview but just to give everybody a little bit of recall Bob is really a very sought after speaker at company leadership and sales conferences sharing the platform with everyone from today’s business leaders, broadcast personalities even to a former US president. He’s the author of a number of books on sales, marketing and influence with the total book sales of well over a million copies. His book the Go-Giver coauthored with John David Mann has sold over a half million copies and has been translated into 21 languages. It’s now being released in a new expanded edition with a foreword by Huffington Post founder and publisher Arianna Huffington. Bob is an advocate, supported and defender of the free enterprise system believing that the amount of money one makes is directly proportional to how many people they serve. He’s also an unapologetic animal fanatic and serves on the board of trustees of Furry Friends, Adoption and Clinic in his home town of Jupiter, Florida. We make fun of Florida a lot Jordan but we’re there and so -- Jordan: Well, that gives us license. Nile: That gives us license I guess. So, Bob welcome back. Bob: Well, thanks. Great being back with you guys. Nile: It is awesome to have you back. It’s always a pleasure. You just always have so many great insights and really valuable information but we’re going to go back to the end of episode 33 now and we were talking about how people don’t have time and some of the answers that they give and you were giving an answer and last time technology wasn’t our friend and it cut off in the middle of the answer and people think that we did that intentionally. So, let me take you back to that and let’s just sort of replay that a bit. So, if you don’t have time and you really want to give an honest answer. You were starting to give some recommendations so let’s jump back into that and then we’ll jump into today’s interview. Bob: Sure. Well, it was really about how to say no when you just don’t want to do something. Whether you have time or not it may not be the question. It’s typically we have time to do those things we want to do or feel drawn to do. we never have time to do something we don’t really want to do so it really comes down to is it something you want to do or not and unless there is a compelling reason for you to do it in your mind’s eye then if you really don’t want to then you shouldn’t. Now, the problem is with telling people no, I don’t want to do it. Why? Because as human beings we want to please others. We want to come through for people assuming it’s not a -- assuming that it’s something that’s worthy or something that’s not inappropriate but let’s say for example and I think we used the example of being asked to serve on a committee. Nile: Exactly. Bob: And it’s -- yeah. And it’s something you don’t want to do for whatever reason. You may not feel like you have the time or the knowledge or the inclination, whatever. That’s your business. One way people are taught to kind of say no is to well, just say no. no is a complete sentence and so forth. And people fell often empowered when they hear that but very rarely is someone going to do that. Is someone going to say no, I don’t want to? Because it’s not nice, it’s not congruent with your value system of treating people with respect and you’re probably going to lose a friend or a potential friend or other opportunities when you do it that way so it’s really -- saying no that way isn’t necessarily appropriate and it’s not particularly productive. So, the other way people do it is to say they don’t have time. Oh, I’d really like to but I’m sorry. I just don’t have time. Well, again, the challenge with doing that is you do have the time if you want to do it. You probably don’t want to do it which again is fine. That’s okay. But the challenge with saying I don’t have time is that the other person comes across this all the time and they know how to answer that objection if you will. And when they do so compellingly then you’re in a position where you either have to admit that really I just don’t want to and so you’re kind of saying I lied which doesn’t make them feel good about you and you don’t feel good about yourself or in order to save face you need to take on the assignment or accept the -- their request which you really don’t want to do and then that’s a losing situation for you. So, rather than doing either of those we can say no in way that respects the other person and honors the other person while also respecting our boundaries. And so the way I would suggest is this and that’s very simple. When -- and again, let’s say you’re being asked to serve on a committee you don’t want to serve on. You simply say to the person thank you so much for asking. While it’s not something I’d like to do please know how honored I am to be asked. And that’s it. Okay. And what you’ve done is you’ve answered the question in a way that’s not only polite. It’s very respectful. You’ve honored this other person. You’ve thanked them for asking. You’ve let them know it’s not something you’d like to do or something you choose to do but that you’re honored to have been asked. And unless this person is really someone who is going to be mad at someone for whatever reason they can't be mad at you. In fact, they’re going to feel good about you and they’re going to -- they may even thank you for the way you turned them down. I’ve had that happen to me and others have said the same. So, again, it’s simply thank you so much for asking. While it’s not something I’d like to do please know how honored I am to be asked. Nile: And now we’ve got that great answer to close out episode 33 so adversity to allies. Go back to episode 33 and listen to that. It’s really great stuff. Bob: Thank you. Nile: But tonight you’re touching my heart a bit here. I don’t know how long ago it was that I actually started listening to the Go-Giver on Audible and I enjoyed it so much I actually then got the book sort of backwards of what a lot of people do. But you and John David Mann published that back in 2007. That’s for all practical purposes nine years ago. What has motivated you to take that book which is a great book? If people haven’t read it we’re going to have a link up on the website and of course the expanded edition as well of course. But for the people that haven’t read that what was really the inspiration for that? Bob: Well, years ago, many years ago I had a book out called Endless referrals, network your everyday contacts into sales which was really for people in sales who didn’t necessarily feel comfortable with the selling process or with meeting people and developing the relationships that it took to really have a steady stream of qualified prospects and referrals and the premise of the book was that all things being equal people will do business with and refer business to those people they know, like and trust. The way you develop these relationships is to really take the focus off of yourself. Move from what we call an eye focus or me focus and move to an other focus always looking for ways to add value to their lives. You could even say placing their interests first. And so I through the years -- and it was a how to book and through the years I’ve read a lot of business parables, short books that had an impactful message and were entertaining and fun to read. Books such as Ken _____23:30 Spencer Johnson’s One minute series, the One minute manager, the One minute sales person, the One minute apology. Spencer Johnson had -- and Ken _____23:41 had a number of other books through the years and there were many other people who wrote parables and I always enjoyed them. I thought what a great way to learn an important message. Nile: Sure. Bob: And to do it in a short period of time. And I thought wouldn’t it be neat if we could take the general underlying message, the premise if you will from endless referrals and put it into a parable. And so I had the basic idea in the title the Go-Giver but that was pretty much it. and so I asked John David Mann who was the editor and chief of a magazine I was writing for at the time or I had written for in the past and I knew John to have an amazing reputation as a writer and at that time -- now John is in demand everywhere. At that time only people within a certain niche market really knew of his genius and I knew that I wanted him to be the lead writer and major storyteller of the book because I knew I couldn’t do it justice myself. I’m a how to author. I’m not really a parable writer. And so John and I got together and collaborated on it and thanks to his expert writing the book really turned out to have an emotional appeal with people and it’s something that we both believe very strongly in the message and we continue to promote it and it’s been sort of like the ever ready the energizer bunny, whatever it was. That just keeps on going and we’re very grateful for that. Nile: Well, and it is such a beautiful story. It’s easy to get into the story and you’re weaving just invaluable business messages and life lessons into the story. In fact, one of the things that I like as you get into the story, you had a gentleman that just really wasn’t happy with his life. We’re not talking about business. We’re just talking about his life. And with the changes that he learned over time not only did his life change but his business changed dramatically as well. It’s really just a fantastic parable as you said. Bob: Oh, thank you. Nile: And I love the -- and it’s a short read. I think it’s 127 pages and those are small pages. And you end up with the five laws of stratospheric success. That was hard to say. Bob: It is hard to say. Nile: But just valuable lessons. One of the things you do is you talk about the entrepreneurial spirit. But what about those people who aren’t entrepreneurs? Does that message in the Go-Giver still apply to them? Bob: It really does because even if someone is not an entrepreneur in terms of starting their own business they still need to think entrepreneurially even when they are simply an employee within a small or major corporation because remember, in this case you still have your own business and that business is you and you’re selling your time, you’re selling your knowledge, your wisdom, you’re selling your services, you are selling your value to your employer and the only reason that they are going to have you in their company is because they feel they’re receiving more in use value from you than what they’re paying and that only makes sense. Otherwise why would they shell out money, right, to have you working in their organization? By the same token it works the other way too. The employer can add great value to their employees over and above their -- the paycheck by creating an environment where people feel valued, where they look forward to coming to work, where they feel as though they’re making a difference, where they’re learning things that can help them progress in their life after that particular job, what have you. So, it’s really a two way street. Everyone can be entrepreneurial in terms of looking for ways to focus on the other person, on adding value to others and that’s why that shift in focus makes all the difference in the world. When you’re an employee who’s focused truly on providing exceptional value to your employer when the layoffs come you’re still going to have your job. Nile: It’s so, so right and so valuable. Well, we’re going to talk about the five laws and all of that right after we take this short break. Jordan: All right. It’s time for another social media marketing moment. Nile, do me a favor. Talk to me about headshots in Linked In. yeah, I hear you talking to people about that all the time. Nile: Well, one thing that’s so funny is so many people don’t take that headshot seriously. They’ve got their arm around somebody that’s not in the picture or they’re deep in the background you could barely see who they are. Want to know an interesting fact? People that look at your Linked In profile spend 80 percent of their time looking at your profile, looking at your headshot. Why is that? It’s because people like to look into your eye. They feel if they look into your eye that they could see what you’re about. They get an understanding of who you are and that’s important before they move anywhere else. Jordan: Another great pearl of wisdom. Thanks Nile. For more just like that join us at linkedinfocus.com, sign up. You’ll be glad you did. Nile: Hey, welcome back to the social media business hour where we’re talking with Bob Burg, the author of the Go-Giver and there’s a new expanded edition that Bob’s just put out. We talked a little bit about that in the first segment but one of the things that we talked about is the five laws and can you maybe give us a quick review of the five laws that you and John share in the book? Bob: Sure. The five laws themselves are the laws of value, compensation, influence, authenticity and receptivity. The law of value says your true worth is determined by how much more you give in value than you take in payment. Now, this sounds like a recipe for bankruptcy when you first hear it but it’s not because we need to simply understand the difference between price and value. Price is a dollar figure, a dollar amount. It’s finite. It is what it is. Value on the other hand is the relative worth or desirability of a thing of something to the end user or the holder. In other words what is it about this thing, this product, service, concept, idea that brings so much worth or value to it that someone will willingly exchange their money for it or their time or their energy, what have you, in order to obtain this value and feel great about it while you make a very healthy profit? And this can be anything from someone selling accounting services to someone owning a pizza restaurant. When someone buys a pizza for 15 dollars and the pizza is absolutely delicious; they’re really hungry so that pizza has even more value to them; they’re eating it with their family and they have a great family experience; your pizza restaurant -- everyone there makes them feel just fantastic for being there, valued and appreciated and you do this consistently with excellence. You’ve give this person well over 15 dollars in value. Okay, so they feel fantastic about it. They receive much more in value than what they paid but because the pizza and your employees and everything else probably cost you about three dollars per pizza you also made a very, very healthy profit. So, both parties come out ahead and that’s why understanding the difference between price and value is so very important but it all starts with that focus on providing value to that other person which is why John and I both say that money is simply an echo of value. It’s the funder if you will to values lightning which means the value must come first and the money is simply a very natural and direct result of the value you’ve provided. That’s the law of value. The law of compensation says your income is determined by how many people you serve and how well you serve them. So, where law number one says to give more in value than you take in payment law number two tells us that the more people whose lives you touch with the exceptional value you provide, the more money with which you’ll be rewarded. The pizza restaurant owner -- I’m not sure how we got into that but that’s how -- who we used it for so let’s continue with that. Nile: Sure. Bob: The pizza restaurant owner, it’s not enough just to provide value to one person. They have a lot of guests in every single night and so the income is determined not just by the value they provide but how many lives they impact with that value. So, law number one represents your potential income. Law number two, the number of lives you impact with that value. That equals your actual income. Now, law number three is the law of influence. This says your influence is determined by how abundantly you place other people’s interests first. Again, this sounds counter intuitive but it’s really -- it makes a lot of sense because when you think about it the greatest leaders, the top influencers, the most profitable sales people, this is how they run their lives and conduct their businesses. They’re always looking for ways to place the interest of others first. Now, when we say this and let me qualify this. When we say place other people’s interests first we certainly don’t mean you should be anyone’s doormat or a martyr or self-sacrificial in any way. Not at all. It’s just that as we mentioned earlier in the show, the golden rule of business is that all things being equal people will do business with and refer business to those people they know, like and trust and there’s no faster, more powerful or more effective way to elicit those feelings toward you from others than by -- again, moving from an I focus to an other focus as Sam, one of the mentors in the story told Joe, the protégé, making your win about the other person’s win. And then you have number four. Law number four is the law of authenticity which says the most valuable gift you have to offer is yourself. One of the mentors, Debra Davenport explained that all the skills in the world, the sales skills, technical skills, people skills, as important as they are and they all are very, very important, they’re all for naught if you don’t come at it from your true authentic core. When you do however, when you show up as yourself day after day, week after week, months after month, people feel good about you, they feel comfortable with you, they know, like and trust you. They want to be in a relationship with you. They want to do business with you and refer you to others. And law number five, the law of receptivity says the key to effective giving is to stay open to receiving. All the giving in the world is all for naught if you’re not willing and able to allow yourself to receive as well. In the story we use the example of breathing out and breathing in. it’s not just the matter of doing one or the other. In order to sustain life you’ve got to breathe out and breathe in. we breathe out, we breathe in, we give, we receive. Giving and receiving, contrary to popular belief and popular culture; giving and receiving are -- they’re not opposite concepts. They’re simply to sides of the very same coin and they work best in tandem. Nile: As you go through your description there; sort of distancing myself from the story because I can do this now this sounds very spiritual. In fact, I feel almost like I’m being churched. But one of the things that I noticed in the book was the way that you weave it into the story and into the lives in the story. As I said earlier on it really becomes more than a business story. I mean, it sounds like we’re talking about business here because we’re relating it to business but it was really all about life in general and business just became a natural part of it. Is that a fair assessment? Bob: Yeah, I think that life and business -- all the aspects, all the areas of life are intertwined. People talk about balance, work and life balance or work life and personal life. I’m not sure balance -- and I’m certainly not the first one to say this but I’m not sure balance is the right word as much as harmony is maybe more -- Nile: I like that. Bob: Yeah. Again, I didn’t make that up. That’s something I’ve heard. I’m not that smart. I don’t have a whole lot of original thoughts. John does. I don’t. Nile: Well, I know that you listen well and you collect those thoughts and you repeat them well so there’s value that you’re giving there so I appreciate it. Bob: Thank you. And so I’ve never believed in that story about the person who could be one way at work and another way at home. I’m all nasty, so and so at work but oh, when I get home I’m kind and I’m gentle and -- people pretty much are what they are. I remember reading a great book by _____37:07 called secrets of the millionaire mind and the theme that went through his book -- I just love this -- was that how you do anything is how you do everything. Nile: Exactly. Bob: And I think that’s basically true and I think because of that universal laws and principles, work across the board, _____37:25 anything that works in life is pretty much going to work right across the way in business and vice versa. Nile: Absolutely. Well, again, knowing how you received the messages that are sent to you there -- I’m curious and we’ve got about three minutes or so before the break. If there’s a piece, one piece of advice that maybe you received before you knew anything about what being a Go-Giver entailed that really was a difference maker for you. Bob: When I was just starting to get my legs in sales, just starting to produce a little bit, I remember coming back to the office after what I will call a non-selling appointment. In other words, the sale did not happen and -- Nile: So, that’s what we call those now? Non selling appointments? Bob: Right. Nile: I like that. Bob: That’s like misremembering something, right? And I remember one of the older -- I guess he was a guy who was about to retire and he kind of took me aside. I think he saw me as sort of like Joe in the story and saw me as a guy with good potential but who really needed to adjust his focus and he said to me something like Burg if you want to make a lot of money in business, if you want to make a lot of money in sales, do not have making money as your target. Your target is serving others. Now, when you hit the target, he continued, you’ll receive a reward and that reward will be money and you can do with that money whatever you want but never forget that the money is only the reward for hitting the target. It’s not the target itself. The target is serving others. And I just was hit right in the heart by that advice and for me it was really a difference maker. What it told me is that selling is not about me. It’s always about the customer. And I personally define selling as -- simply as discovering what somebody wants, needs or desires and helping them to get it. And I think in all sorts of instances -- I think great leadership is never about the leader. Great influence is never about the influencer and great salesmanship is never about the sales person. It’s always about the other person. It’s about everyone whose lives you choose to touch. It’s about everyone whose lives you choose to add value to. Nile: Well, I know we don’t have a great deal of time in the segment but what you just said really resonated with me because I’ve been in sales for quite a number of years as well and I’ve always considered myself a consultive seller meaning that I really want to listen and I want to consult with the clients and if there’s something that I have to offer them that offers them value then certainly I’d like to have them consider that but my big question is do you really need what I’m selling. There may be a better solution for you. And I remember going through that a number of times in the past and sometimes my recommendation was you don’t need my product. You may want it and somewhere down the line I hope that you use my product but this is what you need today. And I remember with some associates some time they’d say what are you doing? And I’m saying don’t worry. That always comes back. They either find somebody that needs exactly what I have and they refer me to them because I wasn’t trying to sell them. I was trying to help them. I was trying to give them value and what you said really just struck me so I think there’s just such a powerful message there and sometimes we miss it and I know that that’s the part of the message of the Go-giver as well. There’s so much more to talk about. We’ve got one more segment to share but what we’re going to do is we’re going to take a short break, do a couple of the commercials that pay for things and we’ll be right back after this short break. Jordan: All right Nile. I think it’s time for another social media marketing moment. Do me a favor. Talk to me about key words in Linked In. Nile: Linked In is a very high authority site. In fact, most people say it’s the fourth highest site for authority that you could go to. Well, you’ve got your own personal web page on that and as everybody knows in web page strategies you want key words so that when people search those key words anywhere on the internet you’re found. Linked In, because of its high authority transfers all of that authority to you so if you take your profile, you key work optimize it, making sure you use key words that users are using to search for you. Not the ones you like. You’re going to get tremendous results. Jordan: Thanks Nile. For more tips just like that join us at linkedinfocus.com, sign up for more tips and tricks. You’ll be glad you did. Nile: Welcome back. And as you know I’m so excited that we have Bob Burg here, the coauthor of the Go-Giver and Bob, I’ve been waiting for this interview for so long because the book has meant so much to me and I know that you’ve got an expanded edition. Before we get too far into our last segment, what was the motivation about that expanded edition and what’s the expansion, what’s the impact? Bob: Sure. Once the book hit the 500000 mark in sales the publisher asked John and me if there was something that we wanted to do in order to celebrate that and to -- if there was any additional value we could put into the book and so forth and we thought about it and obviously with the story being a parable you can't change that. But we could add something at the end of the book that we felt would be of significant value to our readers. We had always heard and well, we had discovered that people were -- we knew businesses were using the book in their sales meetings, their leadership meetings and so forth and discussing certain ideas from the book. We certainly knew schools were doing this from colleges to high schools to -- and churches and other religious institutions. Book clubs were using it and discussing it so we thought well, why don’t we give them a discussion guide. So, at the end of the book we have a discussion guide at the back where they can utilize those discussion points in order to lead study on the book. We also have been asked so many questions throughout the years. Good questions. Just a lot of times the same questions that we figured if one person or if many people are asking probably a whole lot of people who read the book ask and so we put a question and answer section in there as well. We also have a new foreword by -- well, it’s not a new foreword. It’s the only foreword by Arianna Huffington who’s the great entrepreneur and very nice person and the founder and publisher of the Huffington Post so all in all it -- we feel very happy, very excited about this expanded edition. Nile: I can't wait to get my hands on it. And when is that available by the way? Is it on shelves now? Bob: Yeah, yeah. It’s out. Nile: Oh, well, I’m slipping. That’s something I got to get the latest, greatest copy of. Bob: Thank you. I hope you enjoy it. Nile: I absolutely will. I know that there’s one line in the book that’s raised quite a few eyebrows and it’s where you and John wrote does it make money. It’s not a bad question. It’s a great question. It’s just a bad first question. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs especially when in the startup phase might disagree with you just a bit. They might say it’s the only question when it comes to business. Otherwise you’re just naïve. So, what do you two mean? Bob: Well, actually we would say that if you -- and I think history has born this out that if the first question you ask is will it make money you’re focused in the wrong direction and it’s less likely to make money because if it doesn’t provide value to others, if there’s not a market for this either an already made market or one that you can create and that’s always created by providing value, then the second part, the money part is moot. So, we sort of mean that in a -- on a couple of levels. One is just as we mentioned. First ask does it serve. And when we say does it serve that simply means is there a market for it or could there be. Do people want it? You can create the best widget in the world and you might be thinking oh, man this is fantastic. We’re going to make a lot of money with this. But if there’s no market for it you’re not making money from it. You basically are just investing in something fantastic that’s a hobby. On the other hand if you determine first if there is a market in other words does it serve, now you can say will it make money. Is there a way we can take this product or service that really does serve and market in such a way that there’s a lot of money to be earned from it. On a bit deeper level we say well, first ask if it serves because we always want to add value to people’s lives by the very nature of what we do. We want to find a way to add value to others. Back in the -- I think it was the 1950s a young MIT student by the name of Amar _____47:11 went into a radio shack store and bought a pair of headphones and -- or speakers. Excuse me. Not headphones. Speakers. And he was very, very disappointed by the sound quality and he felt this is something that consumers should not have to have. And so he basically devoted his life to making great speakers, right, and creating great sound quality. We all are familiar with _____47:41 speakers. And he became a billionaire because he first asked does it serve, will it serve, how will it serve others. Now, don’t get me wrong. I’m sure he deposited every single one of those checks and he should. He earned them. But his focus was not on the money. His focus was on providing value. His focus was on does it serve. Then it was will it make money. Nile: Yeah, and I love that story. It’s a great one because obviously he didn’t like it and he knew if he didn’t a lot of other people didn’t either and it starts out. Throughout the book -- in fact, I’d say the book is really about mentorship so what do you think is the best way to find a mentor and perhaps most importantly what should an up and comer not do when trying to find one? Bob: Oh, that’s a great question. Both questions are excellent. What I would suggest not doing is approaching someone and simply asking them to be your mentor. I mean, you could admire someone and you can study that person and then you approach that person and say hey, will you be my mentor. And basically, when there’s no relationship there what you’re basically asking this person is hey, would you share your 40 or 50 years of experience with me and just let me know everything it’s taken for you to be successful even though we don’t even know each other. And so typically that’s not going to work. What I would suggest is when there’s someone whose work you admire is to contact that person and first study their stuff. If they’re an author or whatever they do, read their books. What have you. Watch their videos. Or read the articles they’ve written. Just learn about what they’ve done first so you’re not asking questions that you should know the answer to already because you don’t want to waste their time. But you can ask. You can let them know that you admire their work, that you’re studying to or that you’re looking to so and so and if it wouldn’t be inappropriate may I ask you one or two very specific questions. Boom. So, now what you’ve done is you’ve communicated in a way that says to them hey, I honor your time, I respect you and your time, I’m not just looking to waste your time and want something for nothing, that sort of thing. Now, once they do and if they do answer your questions whether it’s letting you take them to lunch or just a cup of coffee or answering a couple of questions on email or over the phone, make sure you send them a hand written note afterwards thanking them. Just a short note thanking them, letting them know you’ll take action on their ideas and so forth. You can report back to them. You can determine or discover what their favorite charity is and make a small donation in their name. that will get back to them and basically again what you’re letting them know is even though I certainly am not in the position to add the kind of value to your life as you are to mine I want to let you know I’m not taking it for granted and I’m looking to add value to you in some way. You can add -- if you’re close enough geographically you can ask to drive them around, be their chauffer and so forth. That way you can be around them and maybe ask them some questions. I mean, there are all sorts of ways that may not apply to some people and will apply to others but the point is this. A mentor/protégé relationship is just that. It’s a relationship. And it usually takes time to develop. It’s much less likely to happen when you come right out and ask a person who doesn’t know you will you be my mentor. It’s more likely to happen when you build a relationship always looking for ways to express gratitude and add value to that person’s life. Nile: I love that answer because it reminded me of what you said as you went through the laws. Breathing is an in and out thing and so you get somebody that’s giving you value as a mentor, as a protégé you’re able to give value back to them. It might be at a different level but they’re recognizing the value that you’re giving. And I know we’ve got just a couple of minutes left and before I get through the final interview I’m going to ask one question but I also want to be able to ask and save some time if people want to know more, how they could get in touch and some other things you’re doing because I know you do a whole lot more than just write books so here’s the question. Are there misconceptions about being a Go-Giver? I mean, the name itself almost implies that you give constantly. Can you be taken advantage of that way? For example, does a Go-Giver tell people no, I don’t want to do that? Bob: Well, okay. So, these are great questions and it -- and there are misconception, misperceptions about what being a Go-Giver means and I think that happens when people see the tittle of the book or they hear about the title from someone and they haven’t read the book. Naturally the mind goes to oh, the Go-Giver. They’re just giving themselves away, right? Or they’re -- they don’t care about making a profit or -- and of course none of that is true. As a Go-Giver you don’t -- you give value constantly, certainly. But you don’t give yourself away. In fact, Go-Givers tend to make a much larger profit than most others because a Go-Giver sells on high value rather than low price. They know that when you sell on low price you’re a commodity. When you sell on value, you’re a resource. So, typically a Go-Giver makes more money and they have a higher profit. Of course, their focus is on the other person. Do they say no? Yeah. Go-Givers need to say no a lot. Just like we talked about at the beginning of this -- at the -- of the show. Go-Givers are typically very successful so they’re typically very busy and if you were to say yes to everyone and everything you wouldn’t -- you really wouldn’t have the time to say yes to those and to that which you should say yes to. But what a Go-Giver would do is they would say no in such a way that honors the other person. Nile: Again, I appreciate that and I appreciate you being a giver that decided to give so much value to all of our listeners tonight. Bob: Oh, thank you. Nile: But one of the things that I’d really like to ask though -- you do a whole lot more. Can you tell the listeners a little bit about what you do and if they’re interested in finding more how do they get in touch? Bob: Well, the easiest way to get in touch is just to visit burg B-U-R-G.com and as you know I speak at a lot of corporate and organizational sales and leadership conferences. We also have a Go-Giver certified speaker program where we actually train people how to become a professional speaker and deliver the Go-Giver message as well as my other intellectual properties that I’ve developed over the last 27, 28 years or so and how to actually market themselves as a speaker and they can get all that information as well as information on the book, the Go-Giver by visiting www.burg B-U-R-G.com. Nile: And we’ll make sure that all of those links are one the Social Media Business Hour page so as always we encourage you to download our episodes on iTunes. Subscribe there. That way you get all the episodes delivered right to you. But we have show notes and links and all of that on the socialmediabusinesshour.com. This is episode 132 just to make it real easy. If we were one more episode in we would be exactly a 100 episodes from our first interview that we did Bob. That’s sort of amazing. Bob: Wow. Nile: Yeah, I agree. Well, listen, to all of you and especially you Bob, I want to thank you for joining us on the Social Media Business Hour. To our listeners I hope you learned a few new ideas or concepts. Maybe you were just reminded of a few things you already know but you haven’t been doing to improve or grow your business. You know that my desire is that you take just one of the things that you learned or were reminded of today and you apply it to your life or business this week. We know that a small change will make a big difference and I’m committed to bringing you at least one new idea each week that you can implement. So, go back and identify just one small change that you could make to your life or business and see what a big difference it will make for you. So, until next week, this is Nile Nickel. Now, go make it happen. Woman: Thanks for listening. Social Media Business Hour is sponsored by linkedinfocus.com. Be sure to get the latest social media business tips and tricks plus free tips on how you can use Linked In to help your business today. Visit socialmediabusinesshour.com. [/content_toggle]       Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/burgbob Twitter: @bobburg Website: www.burg.com