Podcast appearances and mentions of jim burrows

When Jess Salgueiro auditioned in person for the role of Eve on Frasier, she had to do it in front of a pair of sitcom legends: Kelsey Grammer and director Jim Burrows.Pressure? Yes and no says the actress, who was born in Winnipeg, Man.  She figured there must be hundreds of others lining up to try and win a role on this reboot of a TV classic. With nothing to lose by trying, she told herself, just have fun and see if you can make them laugh.She did, and got the part.Now after two seasons streaming on demand at Paramount+, Salgueiro feels right at home on the famed Paramount Studios lot in Hollywood. This past September she and Grammer were in Toronto attending a public screening of the series. She was blown away when Grammer, speaking to the crowd beforehand, got emotional about having her as part of the cast.Hear all about her climb up the TV ladder as this week's guest on brioux.tv: the podcast.

This week on the blog, a podcast interview with TV writer Phoef Sutton on writing for Cheers, the best way to replace characters on a show, and why it's not a bad idea to keep your mouth shut.LINKSA Free Film Book for You: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/cq23xyyt12Another Free Film Book: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/x3jn3emga6Fast, Cheap Film Website: https://www.fastcheapfilm.com/Phoef Sutton Website: https://phoefsutton.net/Eli Marks Website: https://www.elimarksmysteries.com/Albert's Bridge Books Website: https://www.albertsbridgebooks.com/YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/BehindthePageTheEliMarksPodcast***TRANSCRIPTI understand that you wrote and acted in plays in high school and in college. Was that always the goal to be a writer or was acting a goal? Phoef Sutton: Well, yeah, acting was a goal. When I came out here, I sort of thought I wanted to be a writer or an actor. And I decided I could only take getting rejected in one field at a time. And I thought getting rejected as a writer was more pleasant, because they don't do it to your face. I just didn't get any traction as an actor. I'm really glad that I did it when I did it, because it's very helpful for a screenwriter or television writer to have acted—to have known what it's like to be on the stage and to have to say the words. I can communicate with actors, I think, a little bit better than a lot of other showrunners who've just been writers. Because I know what it's like. I can understand that. And also, I think I learned—maybe from being an actor or being around actors—I learned how to write for particular people. I mean, when I know a person and I know their voice and I know what they feel. I could write for Treat Williams. I could write for Bob Newhart. I could write for Brian Dennehy. They have different cadences, different ways of speaking. Ted Danson, Kelsey Grammer, Woody Harrelson. And I was able to do that. So that stood me in good stead. And also, being a playwright, I mean, there aren't very many writers who start as playwrights nowadays. I think, just because there isn't really much theater in this country, or at least not in this city anyway. And I was in plays I wrote, too, so, I mean, there you have nobody to blame but yourself. You can't say, “Who wrote this shit,” or, “That actor screwed it up.” And the first thing that I did professionally—aside from some plays in regional theaters, where I got paid a stipend—was Cheers. And that was basically a play: the entrances, exits, one set, all that. And all the actors were theater actors. It was a play. They do stage plays of various sitcoms over the years. They've done The Golden Girls and all that. And I'm surprised they haven't done one of Cheers, because it's a play. And that set, that beautiful set, which was designed by Richard Sylbert, who did Chinatown and all sorts of other movies. Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf. It was a beautiful set. It was a beautiful set. So many episodes of Cheers were just on the set. I mean, we're just on the bar, never left the bar. Never even changed days, because we found that when we filmed in front of an audience on Tuesday nights—and we filmed pretty much the whole thing in front of an audience—we found that (this was later on in the run), we found that when we would have them change their costumes to be a day later, you could never get them (the actors) back. They would go to the dressing rooms, they would start playing foosball, smoking pot, and you could never get them back. So, there are plenty of episodes of Cheers that take place in one day that couldn't possibly have taken place in one day. But we just figured, we don't want to do the costume changes. I remember hearing an interview with (director) Jim Burrows where he talked about Norm's entrance in the pilot. And he said he felt bad for the writers, because in the blocking, he put Norm at the far end of the bar. Which meant every time Norm came in, you guys needed to write a joke to get him across the room.Phoef Sutton: Well, it was one of the trademarks of the show. And so, it was good in that sense. But yes, and everyone had to top the one before. At first, there were very simple jokes. But then they had to be, you know, very complex jokes or philosophical jokes.We would go to great lengths not to have Norm enter; we would have Norm there at the beginning of the show. We didn't want to deal with it. I wanted to do an episode where they put in a new parking meter in front of the place. So, he had to constantly go and feed the meter. So, there would be like ten Norm entrances in it. And people wanted to kill me for doing that. Let's just back up real quick here. I want to talk about your playwriting, because I know you had sort of a learning experience, you got an understanding of how the business works with your play Burial Customs. About how things look like they're going to happen. And then they don't happen. Phoef Sutton: I was just out of graduate school at the University of Florida, and I moved to New York for a brief period of time. I couldn't really get in, couldn't get an apartment, couldn't get a job. But there was a brief period of time when Ulu Grossbard, who was a big director, wanted to direct that play. And it was very exciting. If I'd known more about the business, I would have been more excited [LAUGHS] because he just done Crimes of the Heart on Broadway. And he was really, really big and he was really into the play. I went to his office on—I don't know, on Times Square or something like that, I don't know where it was—but I felt like I was a part of the Broadway scene. And then he just sort of lost interest and it went away. And that sort of thing happens over and over and over again with people in the business. Even if you're very successful, there are millions of times when things look like they're going to be great and then they fall apart. And my initial reaction to that was to say, “I'm not going to get excited about anything until it's real. Until it's really happening.” So that if I sold a script, a pilot script, I wouldn't get excited until they agreed to make the pilot. And then when they did the pilot, I wouldn't get excited until it was on the air. And then when it was on the air, I wouldn't get excited until it lasted. And then I realized that I was putting myself in a position where I never got excited about anything. So, then I changed my attitude to get excited about every little victory of what comes on. I was right to be excited about Ulu Grossbard doing the play. It was a wonderful opportunity. It didn't pan out. There was nothing wrong with being excited. You know, you aren't punished for being excited about something that doesn't come to the ultimate conclusion. I mean, even when we won our Emmys for Cheers, I basically wouldn't be excited, because I would think, “Well, I've got to go back there tomorrow and do it again.” So now I allow myself to be excited about things.That's a very good lesson to learn. To find that balance.Phoef Sutton: It's a hard lesson to learn. So, what happened with playwriting that got you into TV writing? What was that connection? Phoef Sutton: I wanted to write for movies. I wanted to write for movies and I wanted to write for television. I wanted to write for theater and I wanted to write books. I wanted to be a writer. I wanted to be a writer, in one form or another. So, as I said, I couldn't get into New York. I couldn't get a job, couldn't get an apartment. And in LA, I had a relative that I could stay with. And my brother was with the Crown Books chain. So, I knew I could get a clerk job at a Crown Bookstore. I knew I could get a job. So, I moved to LA with my then fiancé. And I just wrote plays, wrote screenplays. I had a friend from college, Barbara Hall, who was on Newhart at the time. She's since gone on to do everything. She did Madam Secretary and I'll Fly Away and all that. And so I wrote a spec Newhart (script), because she was on Newhart. And that was what got me the freelance Cheers job. I didn't know anything about writing for television. I didn't know anything about writing with a group, writing with a room. I was a very private writer, wrote by myself, didn't talk to anybody about what I was writing until it was done. So, I had to learn all that stuff. I had to learn how to pitch. I had to learn how to pitch in the room during the rewrites. It was really my graduate school, Cheers. And it was a good graduate school, because obviously there were the best writers in the business on that show. So, you're learning from some really, really good people.Phoef Sutton: Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And it was very tense. It was very stressful. It was a hard room. Why was it hard? Phoef Sutton: Well, because you had to be funny. You had to be good. You had to say the right thing. You had to do it. I mean, there were long silences in the room, where people were thinking and crafting and doing stuff, and trying to do it. I didn't speak for the first six months in the room, I think. And I think that was probably a good choice. Because the year I joined the staff, two other writers joined the staff too. And I was the only one who made it all the way through the year. They were both let go. And I think part of the reason was that I knew my place. [LAUGHS] I didn't talk first. And then I would try a few jokes and they got laughs. I would try a few more jokes and they would get laughs. And then before you know it, you're doing it and you're just in the zone. It's a difficult thing to describe. Were you breaking stories as a group? Phoef Sutton: Yeah. Oh yeah. Every story on that show was broken as a group. We never came in with a story. At the beginning of each season, Glen and Les (Charles) would come in and we would talk about what to do. And it was very clear that they hadn't thought about it for an instant over the break. And everything was, you know, what do we do? What do we do? What do we do? And nobody—no freelancer, no staff writer, no producer—nobody ever came in and said, “I've got a story,” and pitched it. Everything was pitched in the room. And when a story is being pitched and formed and all that sort of thing, at some point—in the early stages—you would get assigned it or another writer would get assigned it. That was the way it worked.What did you learn about story in that process? Phoef Sutton: Well, I mean, you learned everything. I mean, obviously the stories for a sitcom, particularly a sitcom like Cheers, are fairly simple: There's a problem that's presented. Halfway through, it takes a turn and then it's resolved. [LAUGHS] And usually—for the first five years of the show—it's getting resolved involved something to do with Diane, because she was pivotal. But I think more what I learned was that when you're first a writer and you write something—and it's good, it's bad, whatever—you generally think, “Well, that's it, that's what it is, and I can't come up with anything else. That's what it is.” And when people give you notes or object to it, you resist the notes. And the main reason you resist the notes, I think, is that you can't think how to change it. You can't figure out anything different. And I just learned very early on that there's always a different way to do something. Anything, anything. Nothing is perfect. Everything—always—has a different way to go. There's always a different way to look at it. Always a different approach to take to it. And maybe that approach won't be better. Maybe it'll be a linear move. Maybe it'll be worse. On Cheers, it was almost always better. It almost always got better. I'd say it always got better in the room.Cheers is well known for—unlike other series where major cast members left—you guys handled it better than anyone ever. Do you have any idea what was the magic powder that made it work where you guys did it? Phoef Sutton: Well, there were a couple of things. First of all, the cast always changed. The cast was always changing. It was never the same. I mean, there were the people who were replaced, left and were replaced. But there were also the people who came in. Frasier, Lilith. One of the reasons the show lasted as long as it did was that when you were writing, if you were writing year eight, it was a way different show from when we were writing year three. A very different cast. I'd say the biggest thing that I learned—and I got to do this, because on Chesapeake Shores, we lost the star of the show too, and I had to replace him—was just to make the character as different as possible from the one you're replacing. So that nobody thinks, “Oh, this guy isn't as good as that guy,” or, “This girl is not the same thing as that.” When Coach died and they brought in Woody, there was still the dumb aspect of him. But in general, he was a very different character. He was a young character. He was a naive character. He was from the Midwest. Whereas Coach had been from Sam's life, and he was a ball player, and he was kind of old and kind of brain damaged from getting hit in the head with balls. And they were very different. When Rebecca came in, they made her a completely different character. And one of the reasons they were able to do that was, I think, just luck. Because they had the character of Frasier. And so much of the show was the intellectual versus the blue-collar type people. And Frasier was able to take that on. He had already taken it on from Diane, but he was able to take that on entirely. So, the new character didn't have to be an intellectual type, snobby type. What was originally intended was a hard-nosed businessman who clashed with Sam. It didn't actually turn out that way. She turned out to be more of a basket case, but that was because of the actress and playing to the actress's strengths. And that, I think, is the main thing I learned from that. Because really, when Diane left the show, the show had been on for five years, which is the run of most shows. No show had really survived the loss of its star and she really was the star. I mean, she was the pivotal point of every episode. She was the one, the audience was coming into the bar and seeing it through her eyes. Ted was certainly the costar, but she was really the focal point of the show. So, when she left, we were really scared. We did not know whether it was going to work. And the show shifted then, because it became much more of an ensemble show, because Kirstie—although she was a wonderful actress—she wasn't quite the dominant force that Shelley Long had been. The show really became about Sam and the bar. It had been moving that way already, but it became that way. If you were to describe the show when it first started, it would surely have been: it's a love story between Sam and Diane and will they get together or not? And then it became a show about a bar, about the patrons of a bar and their lives. I think there's a really good lesson in your story about your first year on Cheers, where you didn't say much, and you just absorbed. Phoef Sutton: I think the world would be greatly improved if people didn't say so much. People talk way too much. You know, there's that old saying, I don't know who said it, Mark Twain or whoever: “Better to be silent and thought a fool than to speak up and prove it.” Just don't talk. [LAUGHS] Just take it in. Be the strong, silent type. [LAUGHS]

On today's REX Daily Podcast, Dom talks with Tasman orchardist Hamish Rush about the 2024 Horti Boys calendar (which has raised over $25,000 for mental health), the process of making it and their desire for someone else to take over the calendar (plus how you can get your hands on one via the REX social media platforms)... He talks with Craig McMillan from Heliventures NZ about pest control, fertiliser and weed spraying and fire fighting... He talks with Hazlett South Island GM of Livestock, Ed Marfell, about its partnership with Meat the Need, spring prices and Tasman's Ranfurly Shield victory... And he talks with Jim Burrows from Glen Lake Station about surviving the drought in North Canterbury and whether he might have another crack the the Mint Lamb competition, after his successful debut last year. Tune in daily for the latest and greatest REX rural content on your favourite streaming platform, visit rexonline.co.nz and follow us on Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn for more.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Adam Lapidus joins me to talk about using his initial; being 6' 9"; Conan O'Brien; NYC real estate; his father being childhood friends with Dave Davis and then reconnecting; meeting James L. Brooks and being asked to be a PA on Taxi at 16; going to NYU; getting a PA job on the Ellen Burstyn Show; Norman Steinberg; Megan Mulally; Jim Burrows secret of TV directing; writing freelance for Charles in Charge, It's a Living, and Who's the Boss; first staff job on Throb; pitching a Simpsons to Dave Davis who pitched it to James L. Brooks; Sam Simon being against it; favorite jokes in it; writing Brooke Shields in to meet her; doing the commentary track; getting a job on Full House; writing the Rigby the Rhino episode and his theme song; Cleghorne; writing Secret Service Guy, which never aired; writing a Weird Science; working on a Smart Guy; WB wanted to turn it into Dawson's Creek; it's creepy very special episode; Much Ado About Nothing for MTV; The Jersey for Disney; Tripping the Rift; Fatherhood; Phil of the Future and having an episode rejected because "children don't get irony"; Xiaolin Showdown; Suite Life of Zach and Cody; Brenda Song; easy to discuss line readings with child actors; "Cooking with Romeo and Juliet" favorite episode; Suite Life on Deck; Debbie Ryan; Jesse; using your daughter for stories; Bunk'd; Team Kaley; Disney micromanagement vs. Netflix freedom; quitting writing to teach at Boston University; winning Professor of the Year Award.

On this week's episode, we have actor Jamie Kaler (My Boys, Tacoma FD, Robot Chicken and many many more) and we talk about his career path as well as his experiences doing stand-up. There's so much more so make sure you tune in.Show NotesJamie KalerIMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0435695/Jamie Kaler on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamie_KalerJamie Kaler on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jamiekaler/?hl=enJamie Kaler on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/jamiekalerA Paper Orchestra on Website: https://michaeljamin.com/bookA Paper Orchestra on Audible: https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptJamie Kaler:He goes, Hey, just so you know, when you do watch it, we were running long for time. So we cut the tag. I go, you mean the reveal where I kissed the woman? He goes, yeah, we ran out of time and we cut it. I go, then everything I did up to that moment has no justification whatsoever because this is the craziest thing. He goes, I know. He goes, what are you going to do with tv? I go, all, whatever. And I moved on and I was like, couldn't care less. ButMichael Jamin:You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase And to support me in this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show.Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Well, today I'm talking about acting with my guest, Jamie Kaler. This guy, before I bring him on this guy's credits are crazy. He works a lot and so I'm going to blow, yeah, blow through. I'm going to do the abridge version. If not, we'll be here all day, but I'm going to go way back. I'm on IM db now. I'm only doing the ones that I decide are highlights. But Jag, he's been on Fringe Friends. Suddenly. Susan Carnival, third Rock in the Sun, king of Queens, grounded for Life, married to the Kelly's Arrested Development, Spanglish, seventies show. What else Will and Grace, the Family Stone? Who remembers that? Monk New Adventures of Old Christine Sons and Daughters. How I Met Your mother, my boys. We know 'em from that. And then did I say Parenthood? Did I say shake it up? Did I say Austin and Allie? Did I say Teachers of the Year? I don't remember. I'm skipping crazy Ex-girlfriend. Jesus, dude. It doesn't end the middle Dads in Parks. Oh, we'll talk about that. Heather's robot Chicken. American Housewife. Most recently Taco fd where my partner and I created the character of Polanski. Jamie, that was exhausting. Are we done with the interview now?Jamie Kaler:Honestly, it was so much fun being here, man. All right, everybody, take care. See you later.Michael Jamin:That was such good advice. Sorry, you guys all missed it. Dude, you've been around. How did you get into acting? How does someone get into acting? By the way,Jamie Kaler:People ask me nowadays, and I go, dude, it's nothing. I mean now it's like don't even move to la just start a YouTube channel in upstate Minnesota and try to blow up. And then once you have a following, then you're set.Michael Jamin:But we were talking about on your podcast, the parent lounge, but I know you think it's like a burden, but I think it actually works in your advantage to you, to your advantage because you're really good at it. You're good. You have a great social media presence. You're quick on your feet. It seems to me this, even though it requires more work for you, it actually works in your favor. No,Jamie Kaler:You mean social media doing it this way? Yeah, of course it is, but I already did it. So now I'm kind of the same way that I used to go buy wigs and glue on mustaches and actually lit myself on fire on stage at Acme Comedy Theater when I was doing crazy shows on Friday and Saturday nights in the nineties with that fervor of what are we doing today? We're going to Goodwill, we're going to get some costumes, here we go. And I remember renting equipment, trying to shoot shorts and trying to clerks, and Ed Burns had made the brothers McMullan or whatever, and it was like, come on, we're making film. It was super hard and it was painful and it was costly. And nowadays you can do it with your phone. But I'm older, I don't quite have the drive. I also am watching two little kids.So the time in the day is where I used to go, this is my day. I'm going to go do this now. I'm like, I dropped the kids at school. I had to go to the cleaners. I taking care of the two kids. I got to pick them up. I'm coaching soccer today. So yes, I will say though, especially watching you and you're a writer, but now you have to become a social media guru to get people to see what you've created and you're an artist. But nowadays, gosh, I was posting something this morning about the pregnant pause is gone pretty soon. Humans are going to evolve where the eyes instead of side by side are over the top of each other because horizontal's over everything's vertical. We need to flip our eyes. And years from now, no one will take a breath because we've dictated that. The breath makes people lose attention though. You can take a pause. People goMichael Jamin:Done. IJamie Kaler:Can't. He took a breath. I can't.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I mean, here's the thing. So I just had this conversation yesterday. I dropped an audio audiobook, and so some woman said I was doing a live, she goes, oh, I bought your audiobook. I love it, but I listened to it on one and a quarter speed. But I'm like, but when I take a pause, it's because I want to put a pause there. I want to give you a moment to soak it in. It's not arbitrary.Jamie Kaler:I wanted to take a Richard Pryor act from his comedy special and cut all the air out of it. And so you would take a 50 minute, one hour special where there's a groove. He's in the moment. It would be like if you took Buddy Rich and you took all the space between the drum beats out. You're like, a lot of the art is in the space, and we have forgotten that. And now it's like it's a machine gun or people's brains shut off.Michael Jamin:This is something when we're shooting a sitcom, often, we'll tell the actor, make sure you hold for a laugh here. Hold for the laugh. You will get one. Yeah. What do we do about this?Jamie Kaler:Well, I don't know because I was watching, have you watched Show Gun?Michael Jamin:No. Am I supposed to watch that?Jamie Kaler:It's new. It's based on the book. Oh my gosh, it's glorious. I had never read the book. 16 hundreds. Futile Japan, A simple, brutal, vicious life of it's gorgeous. They had a full society. It's like the 16 hundreds. Wait,Michael Jamin:Where am I watching this? What can I get?Jamie Kaler:It's on FX and on Hulu and Portuguese and Portugal and England are the two powerhouses on the earth, and they are at war, and they're basically fighting for ownership of the east, even though the east are, they're like, wait, we're here. No one's going to own us. So it's all about that, but it's just this beautifully, I mean, it's like art. It's like going to the museum, seeing this story unfold, but people's brains nowadays, some do just riddling. 30 seconds of garbage on TikTok will get a gillion times more views than that. Because I talked to somebody who said, Hey, have you seen Shogun? Someone's like, oh, it just seems slow. And I was like, it's one of the greatest stories of all time. It's one of the bestselling books of all time. It's history and gorgeous and art, and it's beautifully shot. And they're like, ah, boring. I don't have time for that crap.Michael Jamin:We have, right? So what do we doJamie Kaler:If everything accelerates? There has to be a point where the human brain, it's like when they go, oh, this TV's 4K, and you're like, dude, I'm in my fifties. I can't even see 5K. I can't see any K anymore. It's like so resolution. It doesn't really matter. At some point your brain can't acceptMichael Jamin:It. Well, worse than that, so my TVs, I have a nice plasma plasma, but it's probably 15 years old at a cost a fortune when I got it. But the new ones, the resolution's so clear, it kind of looks like you're watching a bad TV show. You know what I'm saying? You watch a expensive movie and it looks like it's bad TV because I'm seeing too much.Jamie Kaler:The human face is not supposed to be seen with that much resolution. You see people and you're like, oh, that dude had a rough nightMichael Jamin:Where youJamie Kaler:Used to be able to hide it, and now you're like, no, no, no, no.Michael Jamin:Right? But then now have you had these conversations with your agent and your managers, or is this just when we were talking about building your social media following, are they telling you this or are you just like, your friends are doing it now? I got to do it too.Jamie Kaler:You mean why try to build this? Well, it's also, listen, it's funny because my wife will give me grief sometimes, and she goes, your stories are too slow. Which is crazy because I'm one of the fastest speakers who's ever lived. Sometimes when I'm working, people go, you need to bring it down a little bit. But on social media, if I don't want to sit and take a 92nd video and edit it down to a minute to take out the 30 seconds of pauses, because some guy, but that's the dilemma. Everything's the lowest common denominator. The jokes are I see something that blows up and I go, that was a great joke when George Carlin told that in 1972, and it was really well written and scripted, and now you've kind of bastardized it and you've put it into a ten second with no, your speaking voice is intolerable. But I get it, that's what people want. They're scrolling through and you're like, that's how it works. So I'm also a dinosaur man. It's like my daughters are 10 and they're already do flying through stuff. I mean, I don't know how to stop it.Michael Jamin:Do you know people, I mean, obviously back in the day when you'd go to auditions now everything's you submit. But back in the day, I'm sure you were going to audition and they're the same 10 actors that you would see trying out for the same part. Do you think they're doing the same thing that you're doing building of social media presence?Jamie Kaler:Well, I think you have to. Nowadays, honestly, I see that the social media presence, it is number one, you don't have to go learn how to act. You don't have to learn how to be a standup comic. You don't have to learn these skills and slowly build your way up the top. You do it because you're a personality. People are intrigued, not by people who are, they're intrigued by humans. It's a voyeuristic thing, I think, where people are like, you'll see somebody and they're just talking to camera. They're not even good speakers. There's something off. There's a crazy story. And maybe they've just been doing it for 15 straight years and built up a following and put some money behind it, put some ads, made sure they got some clicks. Maybe they bought a few followers, and you're like, but the craft, the art of what you do as a writer. I mean, is it slowly falling? But that's the problem nowadays with my kids, we just got the report cards and really good grades, but you can see on the standardized test, they're reading is starting to slip because kids don't read. It's too slow for them. Their brain is like, well, they just can't slow. People cannot slow down anymore. And it's Where does it goMichael Jamin:From here? I dunno, but I have to say that. So a lot of this is, I don't think this is coming from producers. I was on a show a few years ago, maybe let's say 10 years ago, and the studio or the network rather wanted us to cast a guy with a big social media following for this role. And I'm like, wait, really? Why? What about an act? Can we just get an actor? This Hollywood? Aren't there actors everywhere? And it's because networks are having a hard time marketing their show. And these people with followings, they can market their own show.Jamie Kaler:Kevin Hart. I mean, I remember something. They were like, well, you're going to post about the movie. And he's like, if you pay me, and they were like, why would we pay you? You're in the movie. He goes, yeah, you paid me for my acting services now you want me to be your publicist. If you want me to publicize this film, you will pay me for it because I accumulated these 50 million followers on my own. Why would I just give it to you?Michael Jamin:But here's where I'm curious about that though. I'm not sure if he doesn't post, I get his point, why should I do the marketing as well? But if he doesn't do the marketing, it'll hurt him for his next movie because it won't perform as well in the box office. You know what I'm saying?Jamie Kaler:Yes. It's a double-edged sword. But I also think he doesn't care.Michael Jamin:HeJamie Kaler:Doesn't care. He doesn't care because he has that following. He will, and they'll put it into the budget. I'm sure the agents and managers are like, all right, so this is his money that you're going to pay him. This is part of the marketing fee you're going to. And listen, I totally understand it. I'm sure I've lost parts because people have gone over to go, his following is not as big as this guy. At the end of the day, could a ton of other people played Polanski? Absolutely. Would they have huge followings? Yes, of course. So I feel lucky anytime I get a job to promote it, I feel like I'm qualified for that job. But I also know it's, you look back at the history of film and Philip Seymour Hoffman died, the five projects he had ready to go, they just replaced him.He's arguably one of the greatest actors of our generation. Nobody missed a beat. So are we all replaceable? Absolutely. Are we lucky to be in the business? Yeah. I mean, I would argue writers are more necessary because you're creating the project to start with. But as an actor, unless you're Daniel Day Lewis or somebody who's that crazy of a craft, then it's about chemistry, I think. Anyway. But you have to, those people are trying to get their films out, and so there's so much white noise on a daily basis that to cut through that, they're like, well, if this guy has 5 million followers and he puts up one post, what they don't see is that only 3% of those 5 million people even see. But thisMichael Jamin:Is where I think the studios and the networks have really screwed up royally, is that they haven't figured out a way to build their own brand. So my wife and I will watch a movie or a TV show, we'll get halfway through it and all the night, we'll say, let's watch the rest tomorrow. Almost all the time. I forget where I watched it, and now I have to search, was it on Netflix? Did I watch it on Amazon? Where did I watch this? Because there's no brand anymore without a brand. They can't market their shows. They have to rely on other me and you to market their shows. It puts us in the driver's seat, not them. This is like a major blunder on their parts, I feel.Jamie Kaler:It's not just them. I'd say standup clubs, back in the day, you did a bunch of shows. You finally put a tape together, you sent it to a club. The club had a following, the club had the following. And you knew if you went to that club, you were going to see Richard, Jenny, Brian Regan, Jerry Seinfeld, you knew these guys. Whatever show you went to, you were going to be surprised, but you'd be like, man, those guys are really funny. Nowadays, the club is literally a rental space that you bring the following to. That's why they book influencers who have millions of followers, and then they get on stage. And I guess some are good and some maybe don't have, it's a different skill levelMichael Jamin:When you go, do you still perform comedy standJamie Kaler:Up? I do. I used to tour a ton before the kids, and I was on the road all the time. And then once the kids were born, I didn't really want to do that as much. So now I stay home. So I kind of cherry pick gigs to go out for. And the road's a lot different, I feel like, than it used to be.Michael Jamin:So do you feel the quality of the standups, they're not quite as good anymore? Some people are, would you sound like old men? Which one is it?Jamie Kaler:Absolutely. And I say that all the time. I'm a dinosaur. But I will say that maybe the skill nowadays is not being a standup comic, but being a social media manipulator. And I mean that it's always been the skill. People used to hire publicists even back then, and I never did. And they'd be in People Magazine and I'd be like, what's the point of all that? And then as I got older, I was like, oh, fame allows you to do the jobs you want to do. That's really the trick. But I mean, to be Tom Cruise, I never wanted that because that dude can't leave his house. He can't just go to the supermarket, can't go to a park. I never wanted that. But that makes him and DiCaprio, those are the guys that are Johnny Greenlight. They get the first choice of scripts. And so they are allowed to do these amazing jobs that because how many people do you think nowadays can sell a picture?Michael Jamin:Oh, yeah. I mean, that's the whole thing. Or can open, I don't know. Do you think it's more or less, I guess I would imagine it's probably less now. I mean, because celebrities changed. What do you think?Jamie Kaler:I think the era of the movie Star is over. IMichael Jamin:Think Tom CruiseJamie Kaler:And Brad Pitt and DiCaprio, are they going to be the end of, and Damon are going to be the end of it? I mean, no. You see one of her on Netflix and it's like a TikTok, Charlie Delio. I haven't seen it. Maybe she's a wonderful actress. I don't know. But you go up through that ranks and all of a sudden you have 12 million followers or whatever, and then you could sell, I mean, it's Kardashian really was, we all gave her grief, but in retrospect, they were the smartest people in the room. They saw it coming to their credit and made a gillion dollars off of it, whether that's what you want to do with your life. But my kids kids want to start a YouTube page and a TikTok, and I'm like, she's 10. She's 10 years old. That'sMichael Jamin:Too soon.Jamie Kaler:Yeah. I mean, can everyone on earth just be, can we keep an economy running if everyone's just an influencer? I don't know.Michael Jamin:Well, there's the big question, right? If everyone's trying to, yeah, IJamie Kaler:Mean, look at what you're doing. You wrote a book, you sat down, probably took quite a while. It's a very good book. Thank you. I've read it and it's like, but the point is, almost everybody's wrote in a book now, and everybody's a standup comic and everyone's a performer. And back when I did it, it was like people were like, oh my God, you do standup. I'm would never do that. I'm terrified now. I'll be it like a supermarket. And some woman's like, some grandma's like, oh, I do stand up every Tuesday night at retirement home. And you're like, it'sMichael Jamin:Not. But I also feel like you're reinventing yourself, though. I mean, that's got to be exciting and interesting. No, orJamie Kaler:Of course it is. Of course it is. I do listen. I love doing it. And everyone else, it's a love hate relationship because I'll think of something immediately, I'll put together a little funny bit that I, it's like a standup bit or something, and then I'll be able to share it with all my fans and they will respond accordingly. And you're like, oh yeah, this actually is a pretty good, I just also think we're the learning curve. We're the first generation to go through all this.Michael Jamin:Wait, let me tell you how I hoard myself out this morning. So I wondered, because I'm posting a lot to promote my book. I'm doing a lot of lives, and I'm like, I see other people do lives, and I'm not sure what that magic is. They're cooking eggs or whatever. Are we watching this person cooking eggs? Is this right? So I'm like, all right. I told my wife, today's pushup day. So I'm like, all right, I guess maybe I'll just do pushups and people will that work. And I did pushups on live and I don't know, 20 people watched. And I was like, I felt kind of stupid about the whole thing, but people were watching, I don't know, is this what I got to do now,Jamie Kaler:Pushups, I fear it is. If that's what you want to do for a living, I think this is, if you want to be in this business, I think that's the necessity of it. To be honest, I'm not sure I would've ever signed up for this if I knew, although when I was younger, I probably would've like, Ugh, I would've been Truman shown the wholeMichael Jamin:Thing, right? But you wouldn't.Jamie Kaler:I do wonder, my kids, I think they were at their friend's house or something, and they Googled me. They told me, and they're getting to that age, and I'm like, uhoh, what did you watch? And they watched some crazy video I did where I said something stupid or whatever. And I don't know if every moment of our lives is supposed to be captured. I don't know what the answer is. I have such a love hate certain days. I wake up and I go, even this morning I was telling you I was writing a bit about something or other. And then another day I'll wake up and I go, I don't want to do any of it. I just want to go golf. And that was the beauty. I became an actor because it was the easiest thing. I worked hard to become a good actor. I took classes, worked on my craft, but I wasn't, I wasn't on 24 7 trying,Michael Jamin:Tell me if you feel this way, because if I don't, I try to post almost every day. And if I take one or two days off, that turns into three or four. You know what I'm saying? It gets easy not to do it.Jamie Kaler:Of course, of course. But do you feel guilty after those two or three days? Do you have any guilt or do you actually go, oh, what am I doing? This feels great.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it is mixed like you're saying, but a lot of it is like, this is my job. This is how you get a book out there. This is how you can, I work so hard not to work. You know what I'm saying?Jamie Kaler:I'm working harder now than I ever did when all those credits were being made. Yeah,I would bust my ass. I would get ready. And also acting is about physicality. I would make sure I was in shape. I'd work out, I'd do all this stuff, and then I would go either do an audition and then there'd be downtime, and you'd be like, all right. All right. And then you'd kind of ramp it up again. Now it's like just constant blinders on of, and then the problem also I see is the follow-up. When you performed on stage, you either got to laugh right then and there, and you moved on. But now my wife, we have long conversations on Instagram as well.Michael Jamin:What does she do? What does she do on Instagram? What does she, I don't even know what does, sheJamie Kaler:Works in the pharmaceutical industry.Michael Jamin:So why is she, oh, I think you told me. Why is she on Instagram? Oh, does she post on Instagram?Jamie Kaler:She posts, but she has her own page, and then so she's very specific about it. She'll edit and quiz me and I go, do you want to hear my, I don't care. Nobody cares. Just post it. But it's like, well, what do you think this picture or this? I go, nobody cares. What song do you think this song? Is this song saying too much about me? Or should I feel like maybe I should use it? Should it just be instrumental? I go, okay, I don't care. The trick is to post and walk away. And then people will, for the rest of the day, scroll, because it's the dopamine of like, oh, so-and-So ooh, did you know? So-and-So just like that post I put up this morning, I don't know where this ends, but I find that some days if I just do something physical where I'm digging in the garden in the backyard, it's the greatest three hours of my life where I'm like, I didn't think about anything. I don't know. I don't know where it ends, but yeah. But we're also too, get off my lawn old guys who are like, why? You might have kids,Michael Jamin:But how much time do you think you put on social media every day, either way that you're working on or thinking of working on it or whatever?Jamie Kaler:Well, so I wasn't really, I never cared. I never cared. It was just recently that I've started to make an effort during the pandemic kind of destroyed me. I stayed with two kids. I had a kindergartner and a second grader, and my wife was working 12 hours a day. We have an office in the house where she was gone. Oh, wow. We didn't see her for 12 hours a, and I think part of it, she was hiding because it was the pandemic. We also having construction done on the house, it was arguably the worst time in my life. So I was trying to maintain the kids. So I printed out schedules. I made them put their school uniforms on. I took two desks. I set them up on opposite ends of the house. They were doing it on Zoom, but one's in kindergarten and one's on second grade.So they weren't old enough to really go. I got it at nine 40. They'd be released for recess. I'd have to get them snacks at 1130. It was lunch at two 50. School ended, and then we were trying to maintain sanity. So I started this kind of parental mental health zoom at night. And obviously we were drinking extensively pandemic mental health, but drinking, it was mental health, and we were sipping hardcore and sharing horrible stories. And so it grew into this. I started this thing called the Dad Lands, and it just grew. It was just Zoom. It wasn't even a podcast or anything. And that kind of caught on. I mean, there were guys, I was like, dude, don't kill yourself. We're going to get through this thing guys. Were hanging on by a thread. And we made ourselves all feel better because we were seeing that everyone else was going through this nightmare.And that eventually grew into the Parents Lounge podcast with my other buddy who was in it. He was doing Dad Apocalypse. I was doing Dad Lands. We started a podcast. I'm not a promoter, so I really love doing the podcast. We were doing it live. You've come and done it. The parents lounge, it's super fun. It's a parental mental health night. I've kind of laid off the sauce since then, and all of a sudden it kind of grew into this thing, but we never marketed it. We would just throw it out there and then the other dude would put it up on iTunes, but we wouldn't even put a post of like, Hey, Dave Ners on this Monday. Nothing. Just threw it in the ocean, because I don't want to be a marketer. I didn't move to Hollywood to be a publicist. It's not what I do.So finally, we're at the crap or get off the pot phase of look, we have a pretty good following, considering we haven't put one ounce of work into the promotional part of it. And so finally, everyone's like, look, dude, you either have to become a promoter or you are wasting your time. You need to monetize. We could do some live gigs here and there, but all of a sudden ruffle came in, Justin ruffle was our partner in this thing. And all of a sudden everyone's like, all right, so I committed. I'm committing to trying like you with a book where I feel like we have a really great product. How do we get people to see it? And you're like, this is the way to do it. So we went out and I enjoy stuff like this where we have conversations and we get in depth on stuff. But as far as just constantly putting up a story with a link to the podcast to do this and stuff, well,Michael Jamin:That you can outsource, that's easy. We'reJamie Kaler:Outsourcing it. And so we finally started outsourcing it, and I hadn't outsourced it at all, but it's like I equate it to the Gold Rush. It's like the people who really got rich during the Gold Rush where Levi Strauss and Woolworth and the guys who sold the Pickaxes. So at some point, I should become the outsource guy or something. But yeah.Michael Jamin:Do you see, okay, what are your aspirations with the show? What would you like it to become, if anything?Jamie Kaler:So I love doing the show. I would love a strong following where we've kind of branched off to do other stuff. But honestly, live shows. We have done a few and we're starting to book more. And then to monetize it to a degree, once you start putting all the work into it, you're like, well, maybe we should at least see something. But theMichael Jamin:Live show, you have to produce, you got to bring in equipment mics, you've got to mix it. No, justJamie Kaler:Literally as comics, we show up. I can't tell you the last time I soundcheck, ohMichael Jamin:Wait, wait,Jamie Kaler:We're doing the podcast live. You're talking about, but we do it as here's the beauty of what we do. We're already standups. That was a headline in comic touring the country. I did Montreal Comedy Festival. I've been on late night tv. So for me, that's the easy part. When I used to do standup, it was never about the show. It was more I would peek out and go, is anybody here? And the smartest guys on earth were s, Agora Rogan, Cher Joe, coy, who not only were great comics, but they were also really good at marketing themselves. And so those guys were doing mailing lists for 30 years and building, and I wasn't. I would go sets went great, crush it, and then go have a couple cocktails at the bar. I didn't have kids either. I didn't really care about trying to blow it up. So it was never about the show. It was about getting eyes on it. And I feel like that's where we're at now. We have such a strong, every time we go do it, we crush live. And the question is, how do we get other parents and people to go? This would be a great show to come to. That's really the marketing part of it.Michael Jamin:The tour as Right? Is it all, so it's improv or is it scripted, or what is theJamie Kaler:Show? We have acts, I have two albums on iTunes.Michael Jamin:Oh, okay. So it's a comedy show show.Jamie Kaler:It's a standup comedy show that the Skis is a podcast, really. And we would bring our guests with us, maybe we talked about having Lemi and Heffernan come out and do the podcast live with those guys, but it would be billed as the parents lounge live with these special guests. But it's really a standup show for the audience with under the guise of a podcast. And we have bits and we would do improvisational stuff set up and questions with the audience, for the guests and for everybody else. But we just did, and we did it in Sara, Pennsylvania in the fall. And it was like two hours of just, I'm not even sure I touched that much of my material. We were, we were riffing hard, but we always had the material to step back on. It's like that's my favorite is you have these tracks, but you get off the tracks, you fool around. And if all of a sudden it starts to lag a little bit, you go, all right, here's some bits and then bring 'em back in.Michael Jamin:You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A Paper Orchestra, A collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timal. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity. And Kirks Review says, those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft, will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback, or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book. And now back to our show.I mean, I don't know. I see people doing it online. I'd be doing exactly what you're saying. They take their podcast on the road and somehow, how do you think they're selling tickets though?Jamie Kaler:Because their followings are so strong that people, a lot of times also, I see these shows, and to me, the shows, I go, there's no show here. It's just this guy showed up. It's basically a two hour meet and greet. But honestly, that's what some people love. They don't even care. They just want to be in the same room. The guy will tell a couple stories, they'll play some bits on, they'll play bits on a screen and make it a show and they'll record the podcast live. But people are so enthralled by people chatting, I really missed my window. It really was my strong suit back in the day of just riffing and going along with stuff and being in the moment and chatting. But podcasts wasn't happening. And at the time when podcasts started, I was like, are we going back to radio? Why would people listen to podcasts? I was shocked. And yet offMichael Jamin:They were. But your brand is, you're trying to aim it towards parents or men dads, is that right?Jamie Kaler:Well, it's all parents and no, we've toured with moms. We usually take out moms. We've had Tammy Pesca, Kira svi on the show, Betsy Stover. We just had Nicole Birch. I mean, I think you need a mom's point of view. So when we do live shows, we typically bring out a mom as well with us.Michael Jamin:But you're talking, but is the focus basically on kids and parenting?Jamie Kaler:It is to a degree. But I also, sometimes we'll watch some of those shows and it's like sometimes parents don't want to talk about kids, so we kind of go where we go, and it's about life. The whole thing was trying to get people to understand that you see Instagram and you think your life. You're like, why isn't my life like that? The point of our podcast is really to go, nobody's life like that, dude. I mean, when's the last time you met someone who just was not absolutely full of shit? Have you met anybody who's not just full of shit? Anyone? Well,Michael Jamin:The thing is, especially in Hollywood, a lot of people were trying to hype themselves up. And I discovered early on, this is 30 years ago, that was the people who were talking most about their career really had nothing going on. And the people who didn't talk about it, they didn't talk about specifically, they didn't want people to hit 'em up for a job.Jamie Kaler:Know what I'm saying? And I said that exact 0.2 days ago, I was talking to Lori Kmar and she was just saying the same when I got here, if you were the one who were like, look at me, look at me. People were like, that guy's a loser.It was almost, and then all of a sudden, humble, I blame it on humble brag, humble brag. Do you remember hashtag Humble brag? That was the first one where people, it's really just a brag. You see humble, but you're really just bragging. But back in the day, I remember doing Friends and Will and Grace, and it was big. It was big. And I really didn't tell anybody. People would come in and talk to me and go, dude, were you weren't friends last night. And I was like, I was. And they go, why wouldn't you tell us? And I go, it seems dirty. I felt dirty bragging about what I was doing. But nowadays, if you're not constantly brag, brag, brag, brag, brag. People are like, well, I guess he doesn't have anything to promote.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I remember even just people, I'm in the business, they'll say, so humble to accept this. I'm so humbled to accept this award, whatever, where they might've been in sales or whatever. It's like, but you're using the word humbled wrong. That's not what humbled humble means. You're literally bragging.Jamie Kaler:I feel that way every time when I'm acting and the director goes and cut, that was perfect. We're going to do it again. And I go, you're using the word perfect improperly. Perfect means there's nothing better. I think that's exactly the meaning of perfect. And you're not using it correctly. I knowMichael Jamin:One of the things that I always get, this is my pet peeve about being a writer. You'll turn in a draft of a pilot you've been working on for months, and you just turn it in and then they'll say, great. We're setting up a notes call for Wednesday. Isn't it possible you love it? You know, don't like it? You already know there's something you want change. It's likeJamie Kaler:You didn't even read the title and you're like, I have notes.Michael Jamin:I have notes. Of course you do.Jamie Kaler:Well, listen, if they didn't have notes, they wouldn't have a job. And so I think they're like, well, I mean, we have to find something wrong with this thing. They would get the screenplay for the sting and go, I mean, does the guy have to have a limp? I don't get the Robert Shaw limp. It's like, dude, can you just go, this is pretty great. And also you're not a writer. It's not what you do.Michael Jamin:It's hard to, now you're killing me.Jamie Kaler:I did a show one time, I won't say the name of the show, but I did a show. It didn't go anywhere, but my character is a car salesman. I see these two guys come into the showroom and I want to sell them a car, and I think they're gay, so I pretend to be gay. This is of course, back in the time when I guess you could do that without being canceled. So I act gay to them to get them to buy the car, and we're going to be friends and stuff. And at the end of the episode, my character then kisses a woman who's another salesperson as the reveal. He's not gay. He was doing it to do that, whatever. So all week, all week, the studio execs keep coming over and they go, dude, you got to gay it up. You got to amp it up. We are not getting the joke. You have to play this extremely gay. And then they would walk away and the showrunner would walk over and go, dude, I want you to play it dead straight. I don't want you to play gay whatsoever. So after every take two people kept coming over, giving me completely opposite notes, and I didn't know who.Michael Jamin:Wait, I a little, go ahead, finish your story because I want toJamie Kaler:Jump on it. So I'm in the middle. I'm doing it. I'm not pleasing either of them, right? I'm right in the middle of guess, maybe a little after. I don't know. And I have played gay characters numerous times in tv, and usually I don't do anything. It doesn't have to be that way. And so I would play it dead straight. And so the show goes, it's a train wreck of a week. I'm just getting eviscerated on both sides of like, I'm not pleasing anybody because I'm trying to ride the line in the middle of between these 2 180 degree notes, whatever. It's a train wreck. We finished the shoot, I'm miserable. I run into the showrunner maybe three months later and he tells me, oh, he goes, Hey, just so you know, when you do watch it, we were running long for time. So we cut the tag.I go, you mean the reveal where I kissed the woman? He goes, yeah, we ran out of time and we cut it. I go, then everything I did up to that moment has no justification whatsoever. I goes, this is the craziest thing. He goes, I know. He goes, what are you going to do? It's tv. I go, all right, whatever. And I moved on and I was like, couldn't care less. But you're like, again, art, you wrote something. Your brain had this beautiful story you wanted to unfold. And then commerce and everybody has to prove that they're part of the mix and they can't be hands on.Michael Jamin:I'm very surprised that you got notes directly from a studio executive. That's inappropriate. They're supposed to go through the director. IJamie Kaler:Thought the exact same thing. And people, it's not how it worked. They came right up to me. Oh, I've had that many times. I've had studio people talk to me all the time. Yeah, well, also, I wasn't a star. I was a guest.Michael Jamin:Yeah, but still you're not, first of all, the DGA can file a grievance over that if they were to complain the DGA, I think that's part of the thing. But here's how I would've, if I were you, this is what I would've done. I would've done one take over the top and one place straight. Okay, I'm going to do two different takes, two different. And you decide later which one you want to use.Jamie Kaler:I think I did do that to some degree. I don't think I said it out loud about you have fun and edit, and also you as a guest star. It's the greatest job, but it's also the worst job. It is. These people have been locked and loaded. I did friends the week I did it, they were on the cover of Rolling Stone. They'd been burned in the press when they spoke. They weren't outwardly mean to me, but they also weren't like, Hey, welcome to the, they spoke to each other in hushed tones away from, and I didn't blame them. They couldn't go to a supermarket. They were just famous beyond belief. But the set was tense, super tense because a lot riding, not a lot of money on this thing. The shoot was eight hours long after four, they got rid of the first audience, brought a whole nother audience in, and you start to watch the sausage get made and you're like, this is supposed to be fun and comedy, but sometimes these things are super tense.Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah. So interesting. Do you have any experiences that were great sets that you love working on?Jamie Kaler:So many and listen, even that set the cast was great and friends was great. It was here was the greatest thing about doing friends, or even honestly Will and Grace. I watched Will and Grace, I watched the four of them. Dude, they were a machine combined with the writing staff and Jim Burrows directing. It was like a masterclass, the four of them. And they would rewrite on the fly, they'd do one take and almost rewrite the entire scene. And then you would, they'd go, Jamie, here's your new lines. And I did six episodes over the years and each time I went back it was like, you better bring your A game. Because they would change the whole scene. And they go, so you enter here now you say this and then he's going to say this and you're going to go and you're playing spinning at the four of them. Man, they were honestly maybe the best cast I've ever seen. Really. It was like a Marks Brothers. They just were so perfect in their timing. It was pretty impressive.Michael Jamin:I had Max Nik on my podcast a few weeks ago talking the showrunner. The funny thing is I was touring colleges with my daughter years ago, not that long ago, whatever. We were touring Emerson. And the tour guy goes, oh, and this is the Max Munic building. He goes, anyone know who he is? I'm like, max gave you a building. Yeah. Does anyone know who he is?Jamie Kaler:They were both great. And again, I was overwhelmed because I was so new. And my very first one, gene Wilder, played the boss. I'm the dick in Will's law firm, and I had only done a sitcom or two. And then I got Will and Grace out of nowhere on a crazy afternoon. It was supposed to be another big name guy. And he fell out at the last second. And I got cast and was shooting in the morning and I was terrified. And then I show up in Gene Wilders playing my boss, and I had to do a scene with Willy Wonka. I was like,Michael Jamin:No kidding.Jamie Kaler:By the way, I didn't start acting until I was 30. I was a Navy lieutenant.Michael Jamin:Oh,Jamie Kaler:Really? I was the US Navy. Yeah. That's why I played cops a lot. I was a Navy lieutenant. I got out at like 28. I hung around San Diego. Bartended had fun.Michael Jamin:Why did you get it so early? I think you're supposed to stay in forever and get a great pension.Jamie Kaler:Oh my God. It's like I'm talking to my father. My father banged me. I still have the letters. He and I wrote back and forth where I told him I was getting out and he was so pissedMichael Jamin:BecauseJamie Kaler:He was a pilot. My dad flew in World War ii, my brother was an admiral, and I got out to become an actor, and my father was just furious.Michael Jamin:Whatcha doing? You can one time.Jamie Kaler:Then I booked Jag. One of my first TV shows was, well actually my first show was Renegade with Lorenzo Alamas and Bobby Six Killer though, whatever his name is.Michael Jamin:I know I'm jumping around, but did you know Kevin and Steve before you got booked on? Yes. Yes you did. From whatJamie Kaler:I had done, we bumped into each other once a couple times doing standup. I was doing Thema or something, and then I forget how it's all blurry. I did their podcast, chewing it, and then just kind of hit it off with them. And then they came and did mine. And you talk about sets My boys was my greatest four years of my life. It was just, I met my wife, I bought a house. I was on a billboard on Times Square. We traveled the world. We shot on Wrigley Field in Chicago. I mean, it was glorious. Because of that, I started a headline clubs. It was just this like, oh, here we go. And it wasn't until Tacoma FD where I was on a set where, oh, people came early, people stayed late. You were almost going. It was like it brought you back. A kid being going to theater camp, going, well, here, I'm making a show. But again, as you know, it goes by the eps and number one on the call sheet and that dictates the tenor of the show tone. And they wereMichael Jamin:Both the same. Yeah,Jamie Kaler:Yeah. And those guys, that sets a family, literally everybody. And that's why you also have to be really careful. You can't say anything because everybody's related to everybody and they're all friends. And then Soder came and played Wolf Boykins. And I will tell you, I was super, I love those guys. But there's also a little jealousy of, I've always been a team sport guy. I love Sketch probably more than I like standup because there was something about being on stage with other humans and this chemistry. And then you would get off stage and you're like, can you believe how great that just went? There was this, when you would do standup, it's just you. And when you walk off stage, if you bomb or you crush, you own it. But when you are with a group, I love the group dynamics. Interesting to those guys credit the whole broken lizard.I wish I had the state. I'm jealous of those guys a little bit. Kids in the hall, when I first got out, I had an improv group in San Diego and we ended up doing, we got on the front page. I had been out of the Navy like a year. It was in this crazy improv troop, had no idea what I was doing. And there was three other dudes in it. And the comedy club, the improv, started to hire us to be the feature act. And we would get up. We had no mic, so we'd kind of eat it and then the headliner would come out and go, what the blank was that jackasses? And then do his standup act. But I always wanted that group. You have a comedy partner, you write, you partner. I like that more than the solitary thing. And honestly, to go back to the podcast really quickly, the parents lounge, we didn't have a team.We had no team. And so it wasn't until I brought Phil Hudson and Kevin Lewandowski and then Justin Ruppel and his guy Taylor. And all of a sudden I had a group of people behind me who were like, Hey man, this is a really great product. Let's go. So I guess I'm just a team guy. And when I got to that set at Tacoma fd, I'm so sad it's gone because I just, that and my boys are probably the two highlights of my career, really, personally of joy, of going to work, not feeling pressure like Man Will and Grace. It was fun. It was invigorating, it was exciting, scary. It's a little scary, man. You're like a lot of money. There's a huge audience. There's superstars who are making a million dollars a week. I'd leave the table read and go, that dude just walked with 200 k Monday.Thank you. Monday, 200 K what it must be, same on basketball teams where it's like LeBron James and then that dude from Australia. There's a dynamic there where you're like, yeah, you're not flying home in a jet, my friend. I am. It was weird. So Tacoma fd, those guys never once ever made you feel bad about trying stuff, doing a take where you just explore and you could be funny and you let it rip. I equate it back to Seinfeld. I don't know what it was like on the set, but Seinfeld was one of the few shows where they let the guest stars actually get sometimes bigger laughs than the main cast, which I always find in shows to be the true genius of a show where everyone's there, it's a play. Let it rip. I've been on shows where they, I'll blow it up. I was on the seventies show and I had a couple scenes, and I played this goofy guy with a wig on or whatever, and crushed. I mean, I was a nerd. I was a comic book nerd. Huge laughs. And they took me aside and were like, Hey man, just so you know, you will never get a bigger laugh than the main cast,So you might want to tone it down or we're going to be here all day shooting. And I go, really? And they go, I thought they were joking. And they were like, nah. Yeah. Wow. I probably shouldn't say I'm the worst too. I'll burn myself to say stuff. Well, it's interesting. This business is crazy, man. And you sit there and you think we're just making comedy, but people are,Michael Jamin:Yeah, some people are like that.Jamie Kaler:Yeah. People get their feelings hurt. Those little memos where it's like, don't look so and so in the eye. And you think they're joking. They're not joking.Michael Jamin:You've gotten those memos.Jamie Kaler:I haven't personally. Well, I worked on some big movies where it was like, but I also am not the crazy person who walks up to Christian Bale on Vice and goes, Hey man, dark Knight. Huh? You crushedMichael Jamin:It.Jamie Kaler:I sat next to Christian Bale for a day shooting and he was Dick Cheney unrecognizable. By theMichael Jamin:Way, this guy might be theJamie Kaler:Greatest actor who's ever lived. And he leaned over and he was so nice. Everyone was super kind, but he was nice to meet you. And he talked like Dick Cheney. He goes, nice to meet you. I'm Christian. I go, it's nice to meet you too. But I'm kind of laid back and I try not to, but other people will walk up to Bruce Willis on a set some extra and be like, Hey man, can you read my screenplay? And you're like, dude, read the room. What are you doing?Michael Jamin:What are you doing? What are you doing? PeopleJamie Kaler:Are crazy. That's the problem. And crazy people are drawn to this business. So yeah, I mean, if I was Tom Cruise, I might be the guy who look, just keep everyone away from me. I'm trying to get my job done here.Michael Jamin:Well, you know what though? I mean, I was working in Paramount doing a show and they were shooting, I guess some scenes from Mission Impossible. And he had his trailer, Tom Cruise had his trailer, a giant trailer, and then he had a whole tunnel that he would walk through from his trailer to go to the sound stage because he didn't want people in on the lot looking at him when he walked to the set or bothering him, I don't know. Which I thought was very strange. I was like, but we're all even on Paramount in the business. I guess were bothering would harass him. I'm like, Jesus, this is supposed to be a set studioJamie Kaler:People. And it's even worse now. You go to a broad, remember when people dressed up to go to Vegas? I remember going to Vegas in the eighties and nineties and we brought a sport coat right now it's like cargo shorts, flip flops and beer hat or something. And you're like, there's just no decorum anymore. And people are so, and they're trained by their videos that they can yell and do whatever they want. People go to Broadway shows and just yell out and you're like, what are you doing, man? It's a plane. WhatchaMichael Jamin:Yeah? What are you doing? PeopleJamie Kaler:Are horrible. I know when people, I always laugh when people are like, no, I think deep down people are good. Some, I would argue a good hunk not no have no manners.Michael Jamin:That's probably a remnant from social media where they feel like they can just comment and be mean because they're anonymous, I guess.Jamie Kaler:Well, I think the good thing about social media is that everyone can have their opinion heard. But the worst thing about social media is that everyone can have their opinion heard. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Jamie Kaler:I love when people like they're uneducated. They've never left their small town America. And they're like, no, no, I am 100% certain this is a fact. And you're like,Michael Jamin:Yeah,Jamie Kaler:When's the last time anyone has said you've raised some really strong points. I'm going to rethink my position.Michael Jamin:When you do see that, it always stands out to me. It's like, wow, look at you and humble. It does stand out. We'll doJamie Kaler:That. Listen, we're all guilty of it. Even just recently, my wife said something to me, I can't remember exactly what it was, and I think your spouse is the one who can really cut you to the bone. And she said something and I was like, what do you know? And then later I thought about it and I was like, no, she's right. I have been, oh, here's what she said. Here's what she said, something about a post I had. And she said, you just come off angry. And I said, no, no. I'm a comic. I'm pretending to be angry. And I think I went back and I watched the Post and it reminded me back to early on at Acme Comedy Theater, I had this sketch where I was with woman and we were on a date, and it was very Jerry Lewis props humor where I kept getting hurt.I kept getting hurt. The window smashes in my hand, it ends by me lighting a candle and I actually lit my arm on fire and then would roll it out as the lights came down or whatever, and it crushed. It did so well. And one night it just absolutely bombed, just bombed. And I kept pushing harder and harder and it was bombing, and I got off stage and I talked to the director and I was like, dude, terrible audience. Tonight goes, no, no. He goes, your problem was you didn't play frustrated, you played and it didn't work. And I go, what a specific note. And I've always thought about that because me personally with my angular features, you have to go with what you look like as well. And if I play frustrated, I'm super funny, but if I play angry, I come off angry. And so she was right and I had to go. I think maybe in life everybody needs a director because you forget. It's really hard to self-direct yourself because you get lost in these megaphones of your own things that you're like, no, no, I'm on track. This is going great. Instead of going, I wonder how the outside world perceives me.Michael Jamin:That's exactly right. Yeah. When I recorded the audio book for my book, I needed to be directed. Even though I direct, I don't know how I'm coming off. Yeah, I mean that's actually probably the most profound thing I've heard today. Well, the day just started, but everyone needs to have a director.Jamie Kaler:Yeah, it is kind of crazy. Yeah, it's weird because we also get caught up in our own, listen, I will say the world is, and I know I'm an older cat and I look back at simpler time. I don't want to be that guy. I was like, it was easier, but it was easier. I equate it to even crosswalks lately when you were younger, if you were going to take that right turn and the dude was crossing the crosswalk, everyone would make eye contact and they'd hold their hand up and then they might even jog a couple steps to go like, no, no, we're in this together. We're a team. No. And nowadays I go, dude, are you trying to get hit by a car? You didn't even look up? Didn't even look up deliberately, and it feels like you're slowing your walk down. It's so odd what's happening. But I do think, listen, back in the day, people used to, if you were in front of somebody's house and you were waiting for them, you'd pull your car over and slide it up, maybe a few cars up. Now they just put it right in the middle of the street, hit their hazard lights and just wait. And you'll be behind them and they go, I don't care. I don't even know why they sell cars with rear view mirrors. They should just get rid of it. No one's looking behind them. Nobody cares about anybodyMichael Jamin:Else. That's so interesting. Yeah, I mean, you're right about that lot people crossing the, I always think that, boy, you really are trusting of me. You really trust me not to hit you with my car. Jesus. Isn't thatJamie Kaler:Crazy?Michael Jamin:Yeah, sure you get a payday, but I might kill you.Jamie Kaler:I think it was safer back then too because you knew, listen back in those days, you knew to be off the road between 10:00 PM and 2:00 AM when everyone was drunk. Right. You knew it and everyone was like, oh, drunk driving was terrible. Nowadays, 10:00 AM yesterday morning the dude next to me getting high on his phone, so now it's like twenty four seven. That's why I can't believe people, I never crossed the street without making eye contact and going, dude, are you on your phone or are you going to hit me?Michael Jamin:Yeah, you got to look for yourself.Jamie Kaler:Exactly. But again, I'm old, so what do I know? It is weird trying to teach my kids and I mean, we've talked because your kid's a little older, but trying to impart knowledge of the world to them to be aware of their surroundings. I always say they're probably years from now, they'll go, like my father always said, read the court. You got to have full court vision. I see it in cars. My wife will be behind one car and I'll go, you can't see that three cars up. That dude stopped. You are changing lanes. I'm looking five cars ahead.Michael Jamin:ButJamie Kaler:People nowadays, it's just this one little, they just keep their heads down and you're like, pick your head up, man. But people don't.Michael Jamin:Yeah, be careful. I need to know. So I want to know business right now I'm jumping around, but business is still slow for you in terms of acting gigs because from what I see, they're not shooting a lot. Is that what you were seeing?Jamie Kaler:That is true, and I've had a handful of amazing auditions lately. Oh, you have? Okay. So yeah, a ton. Not a ton, but here's the dilemma is they're all self-tapes, right? And I'm pretty good at self-tapes. You can see there's the lights behind me. There's a curtain right above me that comes down, and then I shoot it that way and they're pretty great. And I'm again about trying to be directed. I've asked my agents and my managers and been like, Hey, am I self taping these? Right? And they're like, dude, your self tapes are solid, but even there's no feedback. And I do think back in the day, I got a lot of jobs because I was great in the room. I was probably better in the room than I was as an actor. You could take it. I would get hired because a lot of acting is chemistry, and you want to see that the person you're working with is going to be cool and able to hang and alsoMichael Jamin:Take a note. Can you take a note?Jamie Kaler:It's so funny you say that, dude. So lately I was, for a while I was just putting the one take on where I was like, this is how I see this part. But this one I had the other day, it was so good, dude. It was handsome. Adjacent was the breakdown, which I was like, all right, because I've always been, I'm lumberjack good looks. I'm like, I know I've walked into rooms, I've seen Brad Pitt in a room, and I've been like, yeah, that's beautiful. I'm a little al dente. That guy is so gorgeous. I'm on the cover of a paper towel roll. I get it. I know. I'm Portland. I'm Portland. I'm a Portland 10. Portland. I'm a Portland nine maybe. So it's handsome adjacent, early fifties jerk cop. I go, dude, this should be offer only. Why am I reading for this?Michael Jamin:Right?Jamie Kaler:So I did the first take. I submitted one where I was like, more Tacoma fd, I was. I go, well, maybe that's why I got in here. They know me from that. And then I was going to just submit that one and I said, you know what? Because you can't go in a room, dude, the casting directors are so good that I've had the pleasure to work with Wendy O'Brien who did that one is one of my faves. She'll give you notes that will kind of give you a nuanced performance where you're going, oh, I see the change. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Because hard. And so I did a totally separate take. I had a friend over here and I did another take that was so the opposite extreme of he wasn't big at all. He was very underplayed in tone. And when I sent them in, my agent said, he goes really great that you did two separate takes.And I said to him, it's a new show. I've never seen it. I don't know what the tone is. There's no direction. You're literally reading this hoping that your take jives with the guys who are going to hopefully see this tape or not. I don't know. And I also submitted it. The audition came out on Monday. It was due Thursday. I memorized it submitted on Tuesday. The other thing they tell you, they go early, bird gets the worms. So the business has changed so much. You're working really hard to pump these things out, but you're like, is anyone seeing any of it? It would be nice if somebody once just called and was like, Hey man, you're not getting it, but I got to tell you, you did a really good job, man. You what you get in a room or if sometimes you don't, sometimes. Yeah.Michael Jamin:So interesting. The life of an actor. So what is left for you as you wrap up, what is left for you today? What does your day look like today, an average day for you?Jamie Kaler:So we are relaunching the podcast. We have an advertiser that's just come on board. We are currently on Buzzsprout, but we're going to jump to megaphone and we're actually, we're still doing the live ones on Tuesday nights 7:00 PM Pacific Time. It's on right now. It's everywhere. Facebook, Instagram, Twitch, YouTube, it goes out live. We're going to slowly bring that back in and we are jumping to Patreon. So come find us. The parents lounge on Patreon, and then we are, so we're doing all the marketing right now, and then I'm still working with the same guys you work with who have been eyeopening. It's like a master's class in this business of social media about getting people on. Because again, I feel like we have a really solid product that people not onl

This week on the blog, a podcast interview with writer (and director and playwright and author and podcaster) Ken Levine about the business of writing and directing situation comedies.LINKSA Free Film Book for You: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/cq23xyyt12Another Free Film Book: https://dl.bookfunnel.com/x3jn3emga6Fast, Cheap Film Website: https://www.fastcheapfilm.com/Ken Levine's Website: http://kenlevine.blogspot.com/Eli Marks Website: https://www.elimarksmysteries.com/Albert's Bridge Books Website: https://www.albertsbridgebooks.com/YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/BehindthePageTheEliMarksPodcastTRANSCRIPTWas being a writer always a goal?Ken Levine: I don't know if it was always a goal. It was something that I always did. Honestly, I did not get a lot of encouragement in high school. I was a cartoonist. I still am. And I was a cartoonist on the school newspaper. And I said, “Well, I also want to write. You know, can I cover sports or do a humor column or something?”And they said, “You're the cartoonist, just stick to cartoons.” And I said, “Well, I really want to write. And if you won't let me write, then I'm going to quit the paper.” And they said, “Then fine, quit the paper.” So, that's how much my cartoons were even valued. They called your bluff on that one, I guess. Ken Levine: They called my bluff, yeah.Just as a little tangent—just because I'm a big fan of your cartoons—did you have a couple of cartoonist heroes when you were growing up? Guys that you looked at and went, that's the kind of writing I want to do?Ken Levine: Well, my cartoonist heroes were more due to their cartooning than anything. Al Hirschfeld, who did the caricatures of the New York Times, was my god. And Mort Drucker would be another. Jack Davis. A lot of those Mad magazine guys. Originally, I wanted to be in radio. I mean, I really loved radio. And a lot of my comic influences early on were disc jockeys, you know. Bob and Ray and Dan Ingram and Dick Whittington. So, radio was a goal. I got out of college and became a Top 40-disc jockey.Let me back up. When I was in college, I got a job as an intern at KMPC in L.A. We're the big, full-service radio station. They had the Angels and the Rams and the Bruins and, you know, they were big music personalities. And their afternoon drive time jock was Gary Owens, who was on Laugh In at the time. You know, “From beautiful downtown Burbank.”And I would write comedy material for Gary, for him to use on the air. I never charged him for it. I mean, I was just so thrilled that someone of the caliber of Gary Owens would use my material on the radio. And one day I get a call to appear in George Schlatter's office. George Schlatter was the producer of Laugh In. And this is when Laugh In was getting 50 shares. And I'm like, what does George Schlatter want with me? So, I go to the meeting obviously. And apparently, unbeknownst to me, Gary submitted my comedy material to him. And George Schlatter offered me a job as a writer on Laugh In. And it's funny, we laughed about it because George is still around and he was a guest on my podcast, and I talked about this.And I said, “Can I do this part time or from home?” And he goes, “What? No, this is a job. You come to the office every day. We're paying you a lot of money to write the number one show in America.” And I said, “I would lose my 2S deferment and I would wind up drafted in Vietnam.” So I couldn't take it. I had to turn down Laugh In. So, I was almost a writer six years before I actually broke in.Okay. So how did you end up then meeting up with David Isaacs?Ken Levine: Like I said, I became a disc jockey out of college. My draft number was four. And like I said, I was at KMPC and one of our disc jockeys, Roger Carroll, was one of the main AFRTS disc jockeys. I shopped around looking, is there a decent reserve unit I could join that would keep me out of the army? And I saw that there was an armed forces radio reserve unit in LA. And through Roger, he helped pull some strings and got me in the unit. You know, it's like one of those things where you get a call saying, “Okay, there's an opening in the unit, but you got to go down to Torrance and sign up for it tomorrow.” And so, you don't have time to think, “Boy, do I want to risk this? Is there a way I can get a medical thing?” And it's six years. It's a six-year commitment. Go.So that's what I did. I got into that unit. And we were at summer camp three years later and somebody new to the unit was David Isaacs. And we met and started talking and we both kind of had desires to be writers. And when summer camp ended, I was at the time working as a disc jockey in San Bernardino. I got fired, which was a frequent occurrence. And I came back home to live with my parents in LA. I called David and I said, “Hey, remember me from the army? I want to try writing a script. You want to try writing it with me?” And he said, “Okay.” And so, we got together and decided to partner up and we wrote a pilot. But we didn't know anything. We had no clue what we were doing. And I had to literally go to a bookstore in Hollywood and on a remainder table were TV scripts. And so, for two dollars I bought a copy of an episode of The Odd Couple and looked at that.Oh, Interior Madison Apartment Day. That's what that is. This is the format, and this is how long they are. So, David and I wrote a pilot about two kids in college, which was the sum total of our life experience back then. We were both 23. And it didn't go anywhere, obviously, but we had a good time doing it. And we then learned the way to break in is to write spec scripts from existing shows.So that's what we did. And eventually we broke in. So, had you written anything with him before that or seen any of his writing? What was it that made you think this is the guy?Ken Levine: No, no. He just seemed like a funny guy. Neither of us had written anything. Neither of us had any writing samples for the other. No, we just sat down together and just tried doing it. It probably was a help that we were both starting from the same place, which was nowhere. You know, it's just kind of one of those happy accidents where you go on a blind date, and it turns out to be your wife.How many years did you guys write together?Ken Levine: Well, we're still writing together, if somebody would hire us. Fifty years.Congratulations. Ken Levine: October of 73 is when we started. And I'm trying to remember, was it The Tony Randall Show or The Jeffersons where you sold your first script? Ken Levine: The Jeffersons. And how did that happen? Ken Levine: Well, we had written a spec Mary Tyler Moore and a spec Rhoda, and another spec pilot. Which was better but didn't go anywhere.And one day my mom is playing golf with a guy who says he's the story editor of The Jeffersons, a new show that just came on. My mom says, “Oh, well, my son is a great young writer.” And he's like, “Oh Christ.” And he says, “All right, well just have him call me.” So, I called him, and the guy says, “You have a script?” And I said, “Yeah.” And he goes, “All right, send the script. If I like the script, we'll talk.” And I sent off our Mary Tyler Moore Show, and I got a letter back saying, “Oh, this is a really good script. Make an appointment, come on in and pitch stories.” And we pitched stories, and they bought one. And so that's how we got our assignment. Thinking back, is there one moment that you felt like was really pivotal that officially launched you guys? Ken Levine: Yeah, doing that first MASH episode. We had done The Jeffersons, we had done episodes of Joe and Sons, which was a terrible show on CBS. We had done some stories for Barney Miller, but Danny Arnold always cut us off before we got to script. We did a backup script for a pilot that didn't go. And then we got MASH And our first episode of MASH, which is the one where the gas heater blows up and Hawkeye is temporarily blind. And that script was like our golden ticket. It's a very memorable episode. Ken Levine: Oh, thank you. I remember it.I spoke with—I don't know if you know her—April Smith, and she said she learned everything she learned about writing in a room from Gene Reynolds. Where did you learn about writing in a room? Ken Levine: Well, I don't know about writing in a room from Gene, because we never worked in a room, really, with Gene. But, I learned more about storytelling, and more about story construction, from Gene Reynolds, than everybody else combined. I've been very lucky to have a lot of great mentors along the way, or to work with, you know, really talented writers and smart enough to just shut up and listen and learn from them. But if I had to pick one true mentor, it would be Gene Reynolds. I cannot say enough about Gene Reynolds. I owe my career to Gene Reynolds. What was his special gift? Ken Levine: First of all, he was very much a gentleman. So, when he would give you notes, if he didn't like a joke, he wouldn't go, “Jesus, guys, what the fuck?” He would go, “And, um, you might take another look at this. You might take another look at that joke.” Okay. Gene had a great story sense that was combined with a real humanity. It had to be more than just funny. It had to be grounded. There had to be, like I said, some humanity to it and the humanity and nice moments and things had to be earned. And he was very clever in constructing stories where things were set up and then got paid off in a somewhat surprising way. You know, look for inventive, different ways of finding a solution. It's why to me, storytelling is always so hard, because each time you tell a story, you want it to be different. You don't want to just keep retelling the same story over and over again. And Gene would look at a thing and go, “Is there a better way of conveying this? Is there something more interesting that Hawkeye could do once he learns this information?” You could give Gene an outline, and everyone can go, “Okay, well, this doesn't work.” Gene could go, “This doesn't work, and here's why. And here's how you can fix it. If Radar knows this, and then HotLips does this, then you could do a fun thing where it's a thing and…. And you're going like, man, he just, you know, just solved it. Just, just solved it. I thank him for that. He was very tough on story, which I took from him. And again, there's the humanity aspect of it, which normally you think, well, okay, that's just part of it. But when I see shows today—and I know I'm going to sound like an old guy, “get off my lawn”—but when I see shows today, like White Lotusand a lot of these other shows that are just mean spirited, where the laughs are coming from watching horrible people do horrible things to each other. And, look, comedy changes and, you know, society changes, et cetera. But to me, there has to be some heart to it. There has to be some, some humanity. And that was so drummed into me by Gene. Gene also talked about the value of research, which I have learned a lot.You know, you go off to write a project about whatever. You're going to do a pilot about the Department of Motor Vehicles. You sort of know a lot about the Department of Motor Vehicles. You've stood in the lines and everything. Gene would say, “Go there. Talk to those people. What is that job really like?What do they really do? And immerse yourself in that world.” And that's what I've always done since. Jim Brooks, who worked with Gene on Room 222, would say the same thing, that he learned the value of research from Gene. And when Jim Brooks did Broadcast News, he spent a tremendous amount of time in newsrooms, talking to those people, getting a sense of authenticity. It requires work, it requires a lot of extra legwork, but it makes the scripts richer and more authentic. And it's worth putting in the time and effort. I just had Michael Conley on as a guest on my podcast. And one of the things I asked him—he does the Bosch books and The Lincoln Lawyer and he's my favorite mystery writer—and I said, “So with all the detectives out there, what's so special about yours and your books?”And he said, “The authenticity.” He spent years on the crime beat at The Los Angeles Times and really got to know the inside working of the LAPD. There is an authenticity to his books that you don't get with a lot. It makes a difference. Research pays off. Okay, one more TV question. What inspired your move into directing? Ken Levine: I'd been a writer for many, many years. A lot of those years I was on staff of a show, and years when I wasn't on staff on a show—since I'm a good joke guy—I would get a job as a consultant on a show. Meaning, I would work one night a week, which was always rewrite night.What a great gig.Ken Levine: It was a great gig. You worked long hours, but it was a great gig. And at the time the pay was ridiculous. There was one season I was on four shows. So, I was working basically four nights till two, three o'clock in the morning. And it got to the point where I would go down to the stage and I would kind of dread going down to the stage, because all I was worried about was, “Okay, let this not be a train wreck. Okay, let this be in good shape, so that I can go home at 10 or 11 or 12.”And I thought to myself, “There's something wrong here. You get into the business, you should want to be on the stage.” So, I thought, be a director and be on the stage and play all day with the actors. And then when it comes time for rewriting, “Good luck guys. You go to the room and rewrite, and I'll go to a Laker game.” So that was my motivation. It should be fun. If you're in television and you're in multi-camera shows, you should look forward to going down to the stage. And if you don't, then it's time to change things around. So, that was my motivation. Did you feel like you had any advantages as a director because of your background in writing and your understanding of scene construction?Ken Levine: Yes. Number one: The writing served me very well. I was talking to Jim Burrows once, who is the Mozart of TV comedy directors.And I was asking him about shots and this and that. And he said, “Look, if the story works, you can have one camera and just shoot the master of the whole show and it'll work. And if the story doesn't work, you can have all the camera angles and cutting you want. It's not gonna save it.” So yes, it was a big help to me, having that experience, being able to say to the actors, “Okay, I see what's wrong here. You need help with the script. You need a few more lines before you can get this angry. Okay. The reason why you're having trouble here is you have to go from zero to 70 in two lines. And you need help here.”And I was also able—this is something Jimmy did and no other director I know of other than me would do the same thing—and that is, we would go back to the writer's room after the run through and I would sit with the guys while we discussed what was wrong and what needed to be fixed. And I would kind of help them along that line as much as I could, which proved to be very helpful.And also, it was very helpful because you go down to the stage the next morning and you have your table reading. And you're able to say to the cast, “Okay, this is what they did last night. These were the problems. This is how they addressed it.” And there were certain things where actors would go, “Where's my joke?” And you're able to say, “The script was long. It was not you. You did a good job with the joke. The script was really long. It's a joke that was easily liftable as opposed to something that was more integral to moving the story forward. That's why you lost the joke.” So, it helped in communication. Also, by that time I had been a showrunner. So, I was used to coming down to the stage, and if I saw something I didn't like—with blocking or something—I'd go, “Wait a minute, why is she here and she over there? This is a private conversation. Put them together. Why are they standing back there in the corner? Why did you put them at this table? The audience can't see them over here. You put them over here at this front table, and then we can have background and you can have some depth and geography.” And stuff like that.So, I have that aspect. I also spent a lot of time editing these shows. So, I would work with the editor, and I'd say, “Okay, go to the wide shot where we see the full costume.” And he goes, “We don't have it.” “Wait, what? It's a costume joke. He comes in dressed like Mr. Pickwick and you only have it up to here?” So, as a director, I go, “Okay, this is what I need to make this joke.” And also reaction shots are so important. You know, when the director is directing a multi camera show—which is like directing Rubik's cube—you have a camera coordinator who works with you, making sure that all the shots are rights. And so, he'll go down the script and it's like, “Okay, Kelsey's line. All right, we have Kelsey on camera A, and then his line we have on camera C, and then Roz we have here.” And he's making sure that everything is covered. But I also want reaction shots. They aren't in the script, but I know when Sam says this, you're going to want to cut to Diane's reaction to it. So, I had that going in my head.And also knowing like, “Okay, this show is running a little long. I suspect that they may cut this section of a scene.” So, when I block it and when I set my cameras, do it in such a way where you can make that lift. Don't have somebody cross the stage during that section, because then if you lift it, the guy pops onto the other side of the room. Don't just have a master, so that there's nothing to cut away to. So, there's like all kinds of things that are going through your head, besides just directing the actors, that my experience was able to help me with.Well, you said Rubik's Cube, and that's what it sounds like: a Rubik's Cube on stage. Ken Levine: You've got five, six people on stage, and you have four cameras. You want to get a master and singles and reaction shots, and two shots. And it's all happening fluidly while the scene is going on. And then when somebody moves around the couch, then the cameras have to move, and are you covered? And those guys are amazing, the camera people in LA, if you're nice to them. I remember there was an episode of Becker that I was directing, and it was in the diner. And somebody had to go way upstage in the corner to the coat rack. And so, as I'm camera blocking that scene. I'm saying, “All right, I'm going to have to do a pickup. Fred, I'm going to have to send you way up the line to give me Ted in the corner there.”And he said, “I can get there.” And I go, “Fred, you have like a line and a half, because I've got you on Reggie. And then they cut away to Bob saying, ‘I looked at my lunch pail and I didn't have anything.' That's all the time you got. You got three seconds to get up there and frame it and do it.”And he says, “I get it. I can get it for you.” And for them, that was kind of part of the fun, was sort of the challenge. If they like you. If they don't like you, good luck.

Jim Burrows is a farmer at Glen Lake in North Canterbury - he discusses winning the recent Mint Lamb competition Tune in every day for the latest and greatest REX content on your favourite streaming platform, visit rexonline.co.nz and follow us on Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn for more.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This week on Just Jack & Will, Sean & Eric employ a new attitude for a new year as they break down “Terms Of Employment.” They talk about the real workplace training that inspired this story, stage combat, reminisce about just how great Gregory Hines was, and Eric shows off his epic warm-up tongue twister. Then, they welcome character actor extraordinaire Bob Clendenin to talk about shooting multiple takes of the training video, getting a compliment from Jim Burrows, and why it's not such a bad thing to be typecast. Okay, so we're in that head space.Have a question about Will & Grace, especially Season 2? We want to hear them! Email us at JustJackAndWill@gmail.com, call or text to 818-308-4012, maybe the guys will answer your question on the show!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

On this week's episode, I have Writer/Showrunner Max Mutchnick from Will & Grace, The Wonder Years, and many many more. Tune in as we talk about his journey as a writer and what some of his creative goals and hopes are for the future.Show NotesMax Mutchnick on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0616083/Max Mutchnick on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/maxmutchnick/?hl=enMax Mutchnick on Twitter: https://twitter.com/MaxMutchnickMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptMax Mutchnick:By the way, I think Miley Cyrus is the only sitcom actor who is able to move the needle. They push you during sweeps. Can you get a Shatner? If we could get Shatner on Big Bang. I know we'll write, that's probably not a good example because it probably worked. But for the most part, shows just get what they get. They always get what they get. It doesn't matter. These co-stars and these, none of that mattered,Michael Jamin:Right?Max Mutchnick:Is it funny? And do you like the people? Do you like the people? Do you like what? They like the world of it?Michael Jamin:You're listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? I'll tell you what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creativity. I'm talking about writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourself through the arts.Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode. Today, I have a wonderful guest that no one deserves to hear. And yet, as a gift, if you're driving your car, pull over, you're going to want to hear this guy, this man and his writing partner, they are responsible for literally one of the biggest hits in the modern era. I'm talking about Will and Grace. This is the co-creator of Will and Grace Max. Much Nick, but lemme tell you what else he's done. All right. It's not just that. I'm going to run through his profile for a second and then I promise I'll let him get a word in edgewise. One word's Dennis Miller show. He was right around the Dennis Miller Show, the Wonder Years Good advice, the single Guy Dream on co-creator of Boston Common Co-creator of Good Morning, Miami Co-creator of Twins, co-creator of Four Kings. This guy's got a lot of work done. Shit, my dad says. Co-creator, partners co-Creator clipped, co-creator, and of course Will and Grace Max, welcome to the show. And let me tell you why this is so meaningful to me to have you hereMax Mutchnick:And me too, just to get an award in.Michael Jamin:Okay? I wonder if,Max Mutchnick:And by the way, those credits were in no particular order.Michael Jamin:Well, it is the IMDB order.Max Mutchnick:It's a weird order, but I'm still thrilled to be here. So I'm going to let you keep going because I like all this.Michael Jamin:Everyone loves having smoked Blunt.Max Mutchnick:It's fantastic.Michael Jamin:Let me tell you why it's so meaningful, because one of the very first jobs I had in Hollywood, I was a PA on a show called Hearts of Fire a max, and his partner writing partner David, were, I don't know if you guys were staff writers or story editors,Max Mutchnick:I think on Hearts of Fire, we were staff writers. I think we were staff writers. Yeah.Michael Jamin:So I'd get you lunch. That's basically it. But you guys were, you guys were so kind. You always let me in. I come into your office, you'd invite me into your office, which to me felt like a big deal. And you guys were both, to me, you were the epitome of what a comedy writer is supposed to be like larger than life, charismatic, funny, ball busting, but also just, I don't know, just energetic and enthusiastic and bursting with creativity and to be around you guys threeMax Mutchnick:Seconds away from tears at all times.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Oh yeah, thatMax Mutchnick:Too. But I mean, we maybe didn't show that to you, but again, I hate to interrupt you when you're saying all this nice stuff.Michael Jamin:Well, I do remember one time, David, I was sitting with you and he's like, what have you heard? I'm like, what have I heard? What do you hear? I'm like, dude, you guys are the only people who talk to me. What have I heard? Nothing.Max Mutchnick:That's so good. What have I heard? And I was listening to you, and by the way, it gives me nothing but joy to be here, and I have to do full disclosure. So I start watching you and listening to you, and this is what happens when you get to be 40 57. I said, I'm like, I know him. I have a feeling of love for him. I do not know how we know each other. It's so funny. I couldn't remember the show that we worked on. I couldn't remember the show we worked on. And then I heard you talking about Mike and Maddie. Yes. The other day. And it was, which isn't on my IMDB page.Michael Jamin:It is. I skipped over it. I didn't want to embarrassMax Mutchnick:You. Yeah, no, I'm glad that we can talk about that too. But it all started at Hearts of Fire.I mean, it's just unbelievable. And that was such an incredibly formative time, and it's so interesting to me that you had this experience of us is mean, and by and large, that's what we are. I mean, I always look back on life and I reflect on it, and I'm always happy when I look back on the things that I've done and where I've been and where I'm going and all that stuff. But today, not so much. What do you mean? Well, it's like I'm saying, when I'm in the moment of today, a lot of times I really can get wrapped up in being depressed about the business and where things are. And I am starting to say things that like old people say, and I don't want to, because I always thought I would never do that. I would never say the business isn't like it used to be. But I'mMichael Jamin:Surprised you even feel that way. You've already accomplished so much. I don't think I would ever get to your level of success. I would've stopped long before.Max Mutchnick:I mean, that's nice. And I know that there are people who are in my position who feel like they've done it. And definitely the collision of a career and social justice, which kind of took place with Will and Grace, the idea that we did this thing and that it had a reverberation on another level should be enough. But I am still a guy with ambition and drive, and I still feel like I have more to say, and I'm not spoiled in that sense. I really don't want to be done at this age. And if anything, my ego is in a better place because I can even fantasize about the idea of being in a room that I wasn't running, which is crazy because that's in the middle of my career when it's at that really hot space. It's like, oh no, I could never be in a room that I wasn't in charge of. But that's not how I feel so much. But theMichael Jamin:Hours are so long and exhausting and you're like, sure, I'll work till two in the morning every night. Well,Max Mutchnick:I couldn't. That's the one thing I would don't feel like that is something that ever needs to be the case. I'm way into having dinner with my family, and I feel like it's after 10:00 PM it's diminishing returns. I actually think after 8:00 PM it's diminishing returns because emotionally you get so your skin starts to break out. You're eating out of styrofoam, and it's just not, it's so bad for where you are. You have to just love the fucking show you're on. Can I say bad word? YouMichael Jamin:Can say, sure. You can say show.Max Mutchnick:You have to love where you are so much to be working late or own. ButMichael Jamin:How did you keep, were the hours good on Will and Grace?Max Mutchnick:Yes. Because we've run a meritocracy and we always have, and that is the best idea will out. So I don't care if it comes from a LB like Michael Jamin or if it comes from John Acquaintance, wherever the best idea and wherever the most honest idea that's organic to the characters comes, and that's the one we're going with. And I'm very, I think one of the things you master or you have to master to be a showrunner that works well and runs a tight ship is the ability to say no quickly and without a lot of ting. So I'm going to say no, and I'm going to say it quickly, and it's going to feel like it hits you hard, and maybe it does. But in order for us to run a tight ship, that's just the way that it has to go. Famously, one of the best showrunners of all time, David Crane, I guess really, it was very democratic and everybody got to talk and pitch, and he didn't cut things off fast. I mean, sometimes there's a German there and you've got to find it and tease it out and stuff like that. But for the most part, immediately, no, that's not the way that we're going. And no, that's not the way the character.Michael Jamin:And they had long hours in that show,Max Mutchnick:Very, very long hours. They famously worked really late. And I was also listening to you the other day talk about those schools of,Michael Jamin:And that's what I was going to get to.Max Mutchnick:Yeah. And you could say that you talked about, there's the Friends school. I think there's also the Diane English strain. Did you mention that one?Michael Jamin:No, I did. I only really mentioned the one that I thought I came from, I think I came from, which was Frazier. Cheers Taxi. Right.Max Mutchnick:And I call that that's the David Lloyd's, I mean,Michael Jamin:And Chris Lloyd, yeah. Okay. What would you say your lineage would be then? And do you agree with that?Max Mutchnick:Yes, I did. I agreed with everything you said. I mean, my lineage is actually, it's a must see TV sound. It's an NBC, it comes down, but that's really the friend sound. And I come from that because my first real job was on Dream on which Martin David created. And then I came in late. David and I came in late on that show, but I also come from the Diane English School because Michael Patrick King was such a giant influence in my sound,Michael Jamin:And that was good advice or whatMax Mutchnick:Good advice. But he had come from Murphy Brown. Right, of course. So if you worked at Murphy Brown, you prayed at the altar and English. I mean, but those friends people, they just spawned so much, soMichael Jamin:Much. But you don't run the show the way they did, though.Max Mutchnick:Not at all. No, not at all. Yeah. We learned as much on shows from what not to do than from what to do. The benefit of being on shows where there, it's just, and I'm not using David Crane as an example because I've never been in a room with him, but we have been in rooms where either we weren't used or there was just endless talk that went absolutely nowhere and the decisions weren't made to just, that's good. That's it. Put it up on the board. You can get there very fast and not like there is a famous school that I don't want to talk about that it's good enough. It's good enough. It's good. Enough's not what I'm talking about. I don't do, it's good enough. But there is a world of shows that's run with that ethos.Michael Jamin:See, I thought one of the first, the advice that we got when we started running shows was I think it was Steve Levitan who said, just pick away, even if it's wrong, pick away. Yes. Or you lose the room.Max Mutchnick:Yes. I mean, it's like you can fu around forever about, oh, what you want to do with your life. I don't necessarily know that this was what I was going to do, but it happened and I went for it, and I got rewarded at a certain point. I feel like if you get rewarded in something that you're doing within six months to 12 months, stay there.Michael Jamin:Were you running a show that wasn't your own, it was your first job at, or No,Max Mutchnick:I'm I'm rare. I'm rare in that regard that I was at Emerson in college, and my dear friend was a comic named Anthony Clark. And Anthony called me and said, they're making shows now in la and there's a company that's very focused on writers who have strong relationships with standup comics. And the company was Castle Rock. And Larry David was just making Seinfeld at that time. And the guy that ran the company with Rob Reiner was a wonderful man named Glenn Paddick. And he gave us our first break, but we had to go into Warren Littlefields office as these young guys and argue for why would I ever give a show on this golden network to two guys that have never done the job before? You've never run a show.Excuse me. I was on single guy. So I mean, I had worked, but I had never run a show. The first time I ran a show and I wasn't even close to running a show. I was a co-producer. And I went in there and I said to him after I got David Cohan a white shirt with a collar like, you have no idea. The Prince of a collar and a what? The difference that it makes put on a goddamn buttoned up shirt. And we go and we sit in there and I say to Mr. Littlefield, who I owe a great deal to, if you give me the keys to the car, I promise not to scratch the car. And if I scratch the car, you can take the keys away. You can bring in whoever you want. They can oversee me, but just give me, literally give me a week, give me a show, and I already know what to do and not to do, and I'll run this thing the right way.Michael Jamin:Wait, this was before you wrote the pilot? This was just to get the chance to,Max Mutchnick:We had written the pilot and they wanted to make it. Oh, okay. And then they said to our agents, or they said to Glenn Pad, Nick, these guys have no experience. You've got to go get showrunners. And I was just so anti the idea that someone was going to creatively be open, and I asked for the meeting and I begged him, and I kind of tell that story. And the whole truth of that story is a day or two before he went to our agent and said, I want someone at that table read who runs a show. I want an experienced showrunner in case at the pilot table read, they fall apart. And God bless the writing team of Roberto, Roberto Bebe and Carl Fink, even Fink, I think. And I could be getting that wrong, and I hope someone calls us out on it. But anyway, those guys were so cool. And they sat at the table read, and we got our notes, and then they walked up to us on the stage where we were shooting the show on Radford, and they were like, you got this boys, we'll see you later. And we never saw again. Really. And then we were show running.Michael Jamin:Did you bring top heavy writers to the firstMax Mutchnick:David's sister who wasn't the superstar,Michael Jamin:Right. That she's nowMax Mutchnick:WasMichael Jamin:I'm talking about your first staff I'm talking about.Max Mutchnick:Yes, I know. Yes. Really. And I don't know who the third one was. I remember there being, it was a mini room before. It was self-imposed before it was imposed on us. And it was just this very tiny group because David and I didn't know how to ate and do all that. And we figured we would do all of the heavy lifting, which was not possible. And we eventually brought in Carrie Lizer, but we started with a very, very tiny group of writers and just crawled our way through.Michael Jamin:Wow. Yes. It's cool. Should we spend the next 59 minutes talking about the single guy, or should we continue talking aboutMax Mutchnick:Your No, no. Can't talk about that show. But it was really cool to work with Ernest Borgne, and I'll just put it to you. Yes. What is the, I'm going to ask you a trivia question.Michael Jamin:JohnnyMax Mutchnick:What?Michael Jamin:Johnny was his name?Max Mutchnick:Yes. Wasn't it? Yes. I went to high school with him, so that's not, and his dad was Johnny Silverman's father was David Cohen's rabbi in real life. Oh, wow. But I mean, we lived in an industry town. That's what it was. But no, Ernest Borg nine, in addition to having a wife that was a cosmetics had of cosmetics Dynasty, Tova nine was the name of all the lotions and potions. Earnest Hemmingway, little known Borg. What?Michael Jamin:Borgnine, not Hemmingway. Not Hemmingway.Max Mutchnick:Shit, that would be so bad. Ernest Borgne had the best collection of what? Does anybody knowMichael Jamin:Doug?Max Mutchnick:No, no, no. He had a good one though.But moving on, he had the best collection of Abraham Lincoln memorabilia because on the weekends, he used to go to Beacons moving and he would sell off the dregs of whatever was left in a truck that people didn't pick up. And one time he went and he bought a painting, and it was of Abraham Lincoln, and he takes it to wherever, Sotheby's or Heritage, whatever he did. And it turns out to be one of only two portraits ever painted of Abraham Lincoln while he was in office. Wow. That started this epic collection. We've digressed into such boring stuff. And I blame you. IMichael Jamin:Blame you. I brought up,Max Mutchnick:You're running this room. You could cut me off at any point.Michael Jamin:No, I could not. But let me ask you this, though. You've created so many shows, and obviously the writers are the same. So what is it, why was Will Grace, why that one not the other ones? Why was that one that blew up?Max Mutchnick:Well, I think I have a glitch in my casting programming. I didn't know to second guess myself in the way that I did after Will and Grace. I mean, it's a great question because it is the thing that, if anything, it could be a regret in my life. It's that I haven't made great decisions at crunch time andMichael Jamin:Wait, so you think it was casting decisions, you think, but you don't get to catch.Max Mutchnick:You put it on the page, and then it's these brilliant actors that have to operate in a medium that's not respected, but possibly the hardest form of acting. And there are very, very few people that can do it as well as the ones that we know. And Jim Burrows always says it's lightning in a bottle.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it is.Max Mutchnick:So it's that, and it's less Moonves also being not great to me.Michael Jamin:Well, I mean, I was going to say, every casting decision has been approved by a million other people. It's not like you could, right?Max Mutchnick:I know. And you want to believe it at the time, and you get in there and you sell, and you do your thing. And then sometimes you don't believe in a person that's going into a cast, but Les has got a thing for that person, so they go in there. But by the way, that man gave me a lot of breaks, and he was good to me for a period in my life, but I also think he did some super fucked up things to our shows too. Partners should have stayed on the air, and he took partners off the air too quickly, and no one had done anything like that. And they should have explored a gay guy and a straight guy being best friends. That's an interesting area.Michael Jamin:What is it? But you guys mostly work in sitcom. I know you did some movie work, but is that just the form you wanted to be in? Is there any other itch you have?Max Mutchnick:No, not really. It just kept, I mean, we kept every few years when they say it's back, we want them, let's go to people that know how to make on that list. And I mean, I'm doing it again, by the way, since this strike is over, and I hope that they work.Michael Jamin:What you're taking outMax Mutchnick:Multicam Ideas couple. Yeah. Yeah. We're working on a couple of Multicam right now that I'm really excited about, but I would love to not do it anymore. I would love to not do it anymore.Michael Jamin:What do you mean you'd love to not do it? I don't understand. IMax Mutchnick:Would love to write what I think single camera comedies are, which is a beautiful, when it's done exquisitely. I think it's, if you write Fleabag, that's like the masterpiece.Michael Jamin:It was a masterpiece, but it was a play. I remember watching you go, this is a play.Max Mutchnick:Yeah, but you can't, I don't know. You can't knock it like that. It doesn't, oh,Michael Jamin:It's not a knock. I mean, it's a compliment. I mean, these long monologues, and it's just not done. ButMax Mutchnick:She still was so brilliant that she figured out, she figured something out about how to make great fuckingMichael Jamin:Episodes. Oh, listen, we're on the same page. I was a masterpiece fricking masterpiece. And what I like about it is that it does feel like a play to me. It's really, it's conversational and it's intimate and brave. It's courageous, man. Man.Max Mutchnick:I think it's the final 20 minutes of the second season. I think that it, it'd be hard pressed to find a better single camera comedy ever written. Yeah, I agree. From the moment the priest shows up at her apartment to sleep with her. And I think that goes straight to the end. I don't know. Beat for beat where I've ever seen it, where I've ever watched a better script.Michael Jamin:How do you feel when you watch something like that? What does that do to you? Because you're a professional writer with a huge, great track record. How does that make you feel?Max Mutchnick:I only have that attitude of the more, the merrier. It's only good to me if you're asking me in a coded way, am I ever jealous of somethingMichael Jamin:A little? Yeah.Max Mutchnick:I mean, yeah. Would I like to have created the bear? Sure. Yes. But I'm more proud of Chris store and impressed that I know him, and I love, and I love that that happens. I mean, I get more offended by the bad stuff. I just can't stand the bad stuff, the good stuff. I'm like, God damn, that's exciting. That got made, and somebody left that writer alone and their vision was carried through to the end.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael. If you like my content, and I know you do because listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people like you can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michael jamin.com and now back to What the hell is Michael Jamin talking aboutWill and Grace, you could tune in an episode, and you knew you were in for some big, big laughs every episode. And I don't know, you were inviting these friends into your home every week. That's what it felt like. You were inviting your friends over. And there's an art to that.Max Mutchnick:Yes. And there's an art to picking the best writers that money can buy, which is what Will and Grace always had. I mean, the star power in the writing room at Will and Grace was spectacular. And I mean, to a person, it had the best run of writers, but the only time it went off the rails is if the heart got taken out of a story. And if the heart wasn't there, then the thing didn't hold up. That's right. And so you have to lay a foundation in the first act and make sure that all that stuff is true and real at the beginning. And then you can go kind of wherever you want in the second act. Then you can get nuts and then resolve in a very real way. But if you don't actually start from a true place of, oh my God, I cannot believe you are sleeping with my brother, that hurts me so much. Why? Because you're mine. Whatever that story is, you want to just hit those notes that everybody understands.Michael Jamin:Now, when you rebooted Will and Grace, did you bring back the entire writing stuff?Max Mutchnick:We didn't bring back everybody, but brought back most everybody.Michael Jamin:And what's shocking about that you had this amazing writing staff and that they were available.Max Mutchnick:We had to be patient. We had to work a little bit of magic. And I also think, I mean, it's embarrassing for NBC, but David and I had out of pocket some fees.Michael Jamin:Oh, really? You wanted them that bad?Max Mutchnick:But it's worth it. It's worth it. It's like, oh, you, you're going to stop at 25 k an episode for this wildly talented person and for their integrity, and they need it to be 27 5. It's like, take it out of mine.Michael Jamin:Right.Max Mutchnick:And we had to give you the full truth on that. It was more with crew. With Crew that we did that.Michael Jamin:Did you want your old crew?Max Mutchnick:Yeah. I mean, there are people that you want, you want the show to sound the same and you want,Michael Jamin:What was it like bringing it back though, for you as a creator? ItMax Mutchnick:Was incredible, honestly. It was such an incredible thing. I mean, we brought it back thinking that Hillary Clinton was going to be president. And the twisted irony is that the game show host won the office, but it ended up really giving us stuff to write to, because if you're just preaching to the third that you have, it's like, what's fun about that? ButMichael Jamin:To me, I guess I'm interested in your characters are now much older. And now I wouldn't have thought when Will Grace ended? I'm not really thinking about where they're going to be years from now. I'm just done thinking about them.Max Mutchnick:I know, and it kind of did have a finality to it, but I mean, I've told the story, but the set was at Emerson. How was it? And it was done, and they were done with the installation, and it was getting moved back on a flatbed to la. And my husband and I were in London, and I was bereft about the way the election was going and sitting in the back of a cab, I said to him, if I had the show, I would have Karen training Rosario on a rock climbing wall. I would do a story about, you're going to go back to Mexico, but then you're going to climb back in after you go back. Right. And I just wanted that to see that visual of Shelly Morrison on a rock climbing wall and caring training her, and in response to him, those horrible policies. And Eric said to me, well, honey, why don't you just go do something about it and make it the set's where it is? All the actors are where they are, and they were amenable. Thank God, God bless them for doing that, because it didn't have to go that way. It wasMichael Jamin:Easy.Max Mutchnick:It was much easier than you would think to bring it all back together.Michael Jamin:Right. That's with the rebuilding. That's so interesting. When you guys are coming up with show ideas, I mean, are they just coming to you? Are you always coming up with ideas or is it like, okay, we got to come up with an idea?Max Mutchnick:No, I mean, I'm coming up with ideas all the time until someone pays me and then all of a suddenMichael Jamin:Nothing. Can't thinkMax Mutchnick:Of anything. Yeah. It's like, I don't know. I can't sleep. I mean, do you sleep? I don't turn. My brain doesn't shut off. And so I'm always kind of thinking about stuff. And by the way, we've written some of the things that I love the most that we've ever done. They've never seen the light of day. And I think that one of the little twisted crimes of our industry is the fact that agents and studios, if they have any sense that you've written something ago, that you wrote it back when they don't want to, it's like a loaf of bread or something like that, as opposed to a piece of art that it is still relevant. It still makes sense. These characters are vibrant and exist, but it feels like used goods even if it's never anywhere.Michael Jamin:And so you guys, your partner, you meet every day and you're coming up with ideas, or even when you're not,Max Mutchnick:I'm very good that way. I don't feel like I can stop and I don't want to stop. Dave is arguably a happier person, and he doesn't feel the same desire to beat himself to death. That's what it's, yeah. But we've had a dynamic for mean our daughters are very, very close, which Oh, really? A gift of life for both of us. But always, I mean, I say this in front of him and behind his back, our relationship has that lovely Jerry Lewis and Dean Martin, sort of one of us is in love with the other one, and one of us doesn't care. And Dave's just like, but he's my brother. So he's not like he's going anywhere. But it's just like, stop trying so fucking hard. I get a little sweaty when I don't need to.Michael Jamin:Well, yeah, you've had so much success. It occurred to me. I just remember one time I was over at your place once, I don't remember where you were living, but I remember you had Enya on.Max Mutchnick:It's so crazy. So wait, I'm going to make my relationship to Enya. I'm going to bring it back to writing sitcoms because Okay. My anxiety has always been a present part of who I am and what you referred to as the fun of coming into my office. Yeah, you're right. But it's driven by a kind of anxiety and on, I guess it would've been good advice for Michael Patrick King. I was having such heavy, crazy anxiety. Anxiety to the point of passing out anxiety that I had to go every time we had a break down to my car and listen to Anya on AC cd.Michael Jamin:Is it because you're worried you're going to be fired? Is that whyMax Mutchnick:I just didn't have that? There's a, that very scary moment of existing in a writing room of what your output is. Like Jeff Astrof, by the way, such an incredible writer in a room, such a good room person. But he lives by the thing. If I don't put a joke into that script today, I can't go to bed tonight. And that drives a person. And I just was in these, so you have to get, but Michael Petra king got me a little bit more comfortable with, I listen to you sometimes and I watch you construct comedy on the fly, and I am impressed with it. And I think, what the fuck? Can't I still do that? But I tap into something different. I tap into a different thing because I think life just across the board, other than rape and cancer and Israel is pretty much, everything is funny. And I feel really good about exploring the most uncomfortable truths of my life, and that's where I get the stuff from. But I wasn't there. I wasn't there, and certainly not at the beginning. And Dave Cohan comes from such a pedigree family that it was second nature to him to just construct really clever wordplay and stuff like that. And I was really panicked about that at the beginning.Michael Jamin:Interesting. Because you know that in the room of writers, if I'm going to choose a team of writers and I have eight picks, the first eight are story people, not joke people.Max Mutchnick:And that's that generic question you ask a writer when you interview them. So what do you think you're best at story or, well, really good at story, right? They're really good at story.Michael Jamin:You're good at stories.Max Mutchnick:You can tell a fucking story.Michael Jamin:None of you'reMax Mutchnick:Good. It's crazy. It's crazy how many people can't tell a story or the joke thing of you want to say to people and you don't. It's like, okay, close your eyes. Go to the table, put that joke in the actor's mouth and tell me the response that you hear. Do you actually hear people laughing at those words? Because that's how I always do it. I'm like, and then it becomes second nature. Yeah, that sounds right. They will make ew. She'll make ew funny. That will get a laugh. That will get a laugh. But it's always shocking to me like the clunkiness sometimes that's pitched and it's like, that's not going toMichael Jamin:Work. Yeah. Yeah. How funny. How funny.Max Mutchnick:And if I'm calm and you got time, it's like you can try to get it, but you want a Michael Jamin in your room to just give it to you. Done.Michael Jamin:Oh, give it to me. Done. It's so interesting. Go starting out. I was just a joke guy. And then you won't keep your job long if that's all you understand, right?Max Mutchnick:No, you have to be able to, because you go to that run through and the entire back half of that story falls apart. So you have to be a technician to say, if you do this and you do that, the back half will, as we say, it's an F 12, it will write itself. It never does that, unfortunately. But I will tell you this, speaking of that, during all of this AI and the strike, and my writer's assistant that's been with me for a very long time, and I won't say his name because he hates that he's a writer's assistant, but he's incredible. A friend gave him a Will and Grace, an AI written Will and Grace.Michael Jamin:Oh, andMax Mutchnick:I mean, this is the upsetting part.Michael Jamin:No, don't go there. Don't say any of this. What isMax Mutchnick:It? I know. I mean, but the truth is, it's like, well, if this is what came to me, if I sent a team off, if I sent a group off and I said, Karen and Jack are going to have a garage sale, bring me back that story. I want two, I mean, I'd break the scenes with them, but two scenes of the first act, two scenes in the second act, it's AB story. Bring that back to me. It wasn't like it was so far off.Michael Jamin:Wasn't so far off. So better than staff writer.Max Mutchnick:This isMichael Jamin:Scary.Max Mutchnick:Yeah, no, I know. I mean, I don't know. It's like if it was in front of me, we could even read it, but I don't have it. I don't want to give any credit to that, but I'm going to name drop. But I told that story to Norman Lear at dinner not too long ago, and he told me that someone had done it for him too on, I think it was on all of the Family. And I believe that we agreed that it wasn't an abomination.Michael Jamin:This makes me sick a little bit.Max Mutchnick:Oh, it's sickening. Yeah, completely sickening. Because it calls 246 episodes of Will and Grace. It figures out what those people sound like. I mean, look, if I delivered, I wouldn't deliver it at a table read. It would still, it would be that thing that I was talking about. There wouldn't be laughs. It didn't have, it didn't have heart construction. Yeah, but good enough. Yeah, but it could go right. That's a callback number 56 onMichael Jamin:Callback. Good enough. I posted about James Burrows yesterday about what he said. I dunno if you saw,Max Mutchnick:Oh, I did. And we should talk about that.Michael Jamin:Yeah. What's, because he basically said, and I think it was misinterpreted a little, that there are, there's only about 30 great writers to do sitcoms. And what I think he meant was 30 great showrunners or potential showrunners, not writers. ButMax Mutchnick:Yeah, I absolutely didn't agree with him. And you started to talk about it, and then always, I kind of turn you off about five minutes, but I will say this, it's like you hit on exactly what it is. The reason why we like it is because Multicam are the comfort Food of America. I mean, that is the show. You want your kid, when they come home from school, turn on an episode of friends and watch that thing, and then dinner will be ready and it goes down easy and you love it. You even can know where it's going, and it's still satisfying. But I didn't agree with Jim, and I hope that he was misquoted because I am not sure that it's over because of how much it's actually liked by Go ahead and create. Everybody loves Raymond and I dare America to not want to watch it.Michael Jamin:Well, okay, growing up, there was a show called Small Wonder. It was one of these syndicated whatever. And I would watch that. And I said to my partner recently, I was like, how come we can't get on small wonder? Where are those shows put on Small wonder? I'd rather be happy working on Small Wonder. But they don't exist.Max Mutchnick:Well, no one programs that way anymore. I still believe if someone made the commitment, I mean, they must have papered this out somewhere, but I always think, shit, if I ran a network, I would ask the higher ups. Can I please develop sitcoms from eight to 10, put them on the air, and will you give me a guarantee that I get to put them on the air for two years straight, all four of them? Because it doesn't happen like a movie. It doesn't happen. I mean, you try really hard, but it's a fluke to get anybody to get a pilot off the ground in that a scene. They don't know anybody. Right. It's the hardest thing in the world. But I believe that if Multicam, I believe that they weren't driven by star casting because star casting always fucks up a multicam. Of course, there are examples of big stars that have made shows work like Charlie and Julia even. But I mean, there's that list of names that if we weren't being recorded, I would just say it's all these fucking famous people that aren't funny. AndMichael Jamin:Wait, is it because you think they get executive producer and they give notes and they change it? They make the show what they want it to be, you mean?Max Mutchnick:Yeah. I mean, I don't give a shit about that, but that's all bad. Jim Burrows, though, won't allow that, which is a gift, though. The world is so changed that if Miley Cyrus wants to do a sitcom, by the way, I think Miley Cyrus is the only sitcom actor who is able to move the needle. They push you during sweeps. Can you get a Shatner? If we could get Shatner on Big Bang, I know we'll write, that's probably not a good example because it probably worked. But for the most part, shows just get what they get. They always get what they get. It doesn't matter. These co-stars and these, none of that matters,Michael Jamin:Right? No.Max Mutchnick:Is it funny? And do you like the people? Do you like the people? And do you like the world that they're in?Michael Jamin:That's what actually, and that is a good segue to what I wanted to talk about as well. Shit, my dad says, you guys were on the forefront. That was a Twitter popular What? ItMax Mutchnick:Was the first one.Michael Jamin:Right? The first ones. So I'm saying you were on the forefront. You were the first ones who did that. And I remembering because it was based on the Twitter feed, I remember thinking, is this what's going on now? And yes. Yes, it is.Max Mutchnick:I know. I mean, it's funny. I remember when I was a kid and all of a sudden in the music scene, there was punk rock. And I remember being a worried Jewish boy saying to my mother, ma, I think punk rock's going to ruin the world. I think punk rock's going to ruin the world. And it was like all of a sudden, Twitter, a Twitter account, a tweet for Justin Alper. Brilliant. I mean, creator Elementary with Pat Schumacher, and this was Justin's, it was his account, but at a beginning, middle to an end, when you heard it, it was just like, shit, my dad says, it's just like, well, inside that line, speaking of Hemmingway, the best story, the shortest story ever written.Michael Jamin:Yeah. What is it?Max Mutchnick:Baby Shoes for Sale, never Worn.Michael Jamin:Right? Right.Max Mutchnick:They might be out of order, but those are the words I think, and shit my dad says was like, oh my God. You know exactly what that is. That's a son with being embarrassed by a father that he loves. So it was all there. It was there. Yeah.Michael Jamin:But if, I don't know, was there ever a moment like now, sure. Oh, this guy, this person has a big Twitter feed. Yes, bring him in. Let's talk with them. Right. But was there a moment when you were doing this? Are we really basing a show on a Twitter feed? I mean, I know you saw more, but I would've been worried.Max Mutchnick:Yeah, yeah. But it was literary. I mean, I don't know. Justin was just so sharp and smart, and there were ideas immediately, so it didn't feel hacky at all. But by the way, I will say this, it was one of the handful of terrible, deadly fatal casting mistakes that I made in giving the job of the Sun to the actor that we did when the actor of the hundreds of people that we read for that part, there was only one guy who came in and he was a slam dunk, and he was the one, and he was the only one of all the 500 men that read for the part that Bill Shatner said, that's the guy. And that guy was David Rum, HoltzMichael Jamin:Rum,Max Mutchnick:David m, it was so there in the room. Yeah. I forgot it was him. He understood everything. And I brought some of my own bullshit to it, and so did everybody else. David didn't, he didn't look like we wanted it. Look, we wanted a cuter person and all kind of stuff.Michael Jamin:Pretty, it's so funny. We did a show with him years later. Crummy Sweet kid, sweet guy. Interesting.Max Mutchnick:Wow. Forgot about that. Yeah. Such a talented guy. Such talentedMichael Jamin:Guy. Yeah. Interesting.Max Mutchnick:And a brother in neurosis.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. Well, let me talk about that, because you tend to put yourself into the characters you write. And how hard is that is difficult for you? Does everyone know that it's you, IMax Mutchnick:Guess? I think so. I mean, well, I only tell the stories in first person. I mean, I don't say, I have a friend who had sex with a Chauffeur for Music Express. I tell the story about what I did and how embarrassing it was and what I did and what I did to recover from it. And I got very comfortable with that. And it's made it possible to tell a lot of stories because that's what I have.Michael Jamin:But on the flip side, are you sometimes protective of the character when someone else pitches an idea and Well, I wouldn't do that. Well, it's not you. It's,Max Mutchnick:Oh my God. No. If it feels true, and it sounds true, I completely, I mean, I'm not going to go back on what I said. If your story is fantastic and it's not nuts, I mean, I want to tell that I want tell that story. Right? I mean, those are the ones that I, the ones that really like are like, oh, Jesus Christ, that's so uncomfortable. That's so uncomfortable and so awkward. And we have to do that. We have to tell that story.Michael Jamin:Did you start on your shows that you run, do you start every morning with like, Hey, what's everybody up to? Are you trying to pull stories out of people, personal storiesMax Mutchnick:We call a host chat?Michael Jamin:Is that what you called it? Yeah,Max Mutchnick:We call a host chat, because when I first started out, I knew I had a rundown of, I think Regis. Regis and who is Frank ER's wife?Michael Jamin:Kathy Lee.Max Mutchnick:Kathy Lee. Kathy Lee. And it's called Host Chat, by the way. It might've been on,Michael Jamin:Mike Madia was called that as well. Yeah. Yeah.Max Mutchnick:I mean, that's where it comes from. It doesn't come from Regis, it comes from that. And David, and I mean, it's arguably sometimes the best part of the day.Michael Jamin:Well, yeah, it's funny. You guys set up Mike and Maddie, and then you bounced off that show probably in a matter of months. And then I took, I took the job that you vacated and I was thrilled. And with you was, I dunno. For me, it was like, oh my God, this is this giant opportunity. And you guys, this is your temporary gig.Max Mutchnick:Oh, well, it wasn't a temporary gig. It was a fall from Grace. I mean, I think we had already been working, something was going on in our career, either we were in between agents or something, but that was an absolute blight. I mean, it was terrible. That experience.Michael Jamin:And why, what was it For me,Max Mutchnick:We were WGA primetime,Michael Jamin:And that was not all ofMax Mutchnick:Sudden we're writing a strip bullshit show with two hosts that hate each other. And I mean, a great thing came out of it though, the first week of the run of those shows, David Cohan is in all of the sketches.Michael Jamin:Oh, I didn't know that.Max Mutchnick:Yeah, David, we wrote him into the sketches. He played kind of this dumb PA character, and we would do these cold opens that they could never make them work. They could never make work because Maddie couldn't act. And Mike was always frustrated. But Dave's in them, they're online, I believe, and they're pretty funny.Michael Jamin:Oh my God. HowMax Mutchnick:Funny. Yeah, it's incredible.Michael Jamin:And so I guess going forward, as I take up a lot of your time here, what do you see going forward with the industry? I don't know. What does it lookMax Mutchnick:Like to you? That's one thing I won't do. It's the more I realize how little I know kind of thing. I believe this. I believe that good shows always will out. They will always happen. And even in spite of the system. So I think that that can happen. But I don't know. I'll tell you, in six months, I can come back and we'll talk about whether the multicam that I have in the hopper right now, if they work and if they get on the schedule, because things just, it just doesn't happen anymore.Michael Jamin:People think, yeah, people, when you're in it, you're made well, your next job is never guaranteed.Max Mutchnick:I don't like that 50 something year old guy that doesn't work anymore. I don't want to be that. I don't that person and I can be okay. I guess reflecting, looking back on, I tried really hard and I kind of want to, this might be embarrassing, but I really would like to show myself that I have not disconnected from the popular culture that I can tap into the way people feel still. And I'm not just a guy making dad jokes. I mean, I'm not that guy anyway. My daughters, that's not their experience. So it is just a matter of can I get the system to work on my behalf?Michael Jamin:What do you tell young writers trying to break in then giveMax Mutchnick:Advice that there's always room for one more. I mean, I still feel that way, but I feel like you've got to be, if you get on a show, I think the goal is to parrot the showrunner.Yes. Make the sound that he's making. Don't make some other weird Crispin Glover sound. Make the sound that he's making, and then improve upon that act. It's like actors that you hire to do a guest spot on a show, and they kill it, and you hire them, and then they get on the floor and they give you something else. It's like, no, no, no. Do exactly the thing that we hired you for. So a writer, it's like, I read your spec script. I love it. I love your tone. I loved talking to you. And by the way, in that meeting, I'm thinking as much about what's it going to be like to do post chat with this person and do anything else? Because I don't know that I should say this, but I will because I don't stop myself. A lot of times when we meet writers, we read them after we met them,Michael Jamin:You read 'em afterMax Mutchnick:They have a thing. If they're in the system to the point that the studio and the network are saying, oh yeah, we love this person. We think this person is great. This person's just come out of NYU. We think you'll help this person. Right? You've got to meet this guy, or you've got to meet this woman, this human. I sit down with them and then it's like, okay, you are,Michael Jamin:I wouldn't trust anything they say, though. That's the thing. Why? What do you mean? Well, because you got to meet this writer, and they're like, but I don't think they know what I'm looking for in a writer. That's the thing.Max Mutchnick:But it's like both have equal power in the hiring. So it's like you meet them, do I like them? You can read a script and then all of a sudden you imbue all the stuff that, and they're just like, Ugh. They're a drip. And they're not cool. And they're not easy to talk to. I mean, by the way, mean if the script's brilliant, you're going to hire them. But well,Michael Jamin:Also, I imagine we're also intimidated by your success too. It's not easy to sit opposite you guys,Max Mutchnick:But we try really hard to pull that out of the room as fast as we can because it gets in the way. And like I said, it's like I won't really comment on our position in the world and that kind of stuff. I just can't even think about that. If someone's coming in to talk to us, I feel as much want them to. I'm still the same as my husband says, everybody has diarrhea. It's like, I want them to like me.Michael Jamin:You still sob to Enya?Max Mutchnick:Yes. That I don't do anymore. I do. I'm a little bit my spine's illustrator. I don't have one way of doing anything is really the moral of the whole.Michael Jamin:Wow, max, I'm so appreciative that you took the time. I don't know, just to talk because oh my God, you have so much wisdom to share. It's just so interesting to hear your journey, and I don't know.Max Mutchnick:It is a joy to talk to you, and I don't usually enjoy these things as much as I have that says everything about you, andMichael Jamin:It's atMax Mutchnick:Ease. Yeah. I mean, you're just easy and good and smart and everything. A lot. I mean, your commentary throughout the strike was just fantastic and on point. And you were putting yourself out there in a way. AndMichael Jamin:Ballsy is what IMax Mutchnick:Ballsy. Ballsy. Yes, that's right. I mean, one gets scared making things when you have, I guess you don't have that much to lose.Michael Jamin:That's pretty much it. That's pretty much it. Yeah.Max Mutchnick:So can you just tell me before we say goodbye? Yeah. What are you working on?Michael Jamin:Well, we're going to talk more. We're done talking. Okay.Max Mutchnick:Okay. So do you want to wrap it up? Do we sing or what do we do?Michael Jamin:Yeah. We hug virtually and we tell everyone to be their best creative versions of themselves.Max Mutchnick:That's exactly right.Michael Jamin:Encourage people. There's roomMax Mutchnick:For one more.Michael Jamin:I love that. There's room for one more. So if you're listening always. Yeah.Max Mutchnick:No matter what it is. And God damn, I wish I could sing the theme for, I mean, if you have your sound engineer, why don't you just have your sound engineer fade in the theme from the Mike and Maddie show written by Charles Luman.Michael Jamin:MicMax Mutchnick:Shine. It's a beautiful day in America.Michael Jamin:I'm not paying for that needle drop. I got my own music. HeMax Mutchnick:Doesn't need the money.Michael Jamin:I'll talk to him. Okay. All right. Thank you again, max. I really appreciate it, Janet. Yeah. Okay. And don't go anywhere. Alright everyone, we got another more great episodes. Wasn't that interesting talk? He's a great guy. Go watch him. Go watch Will and Grace again. It's ageless. Alright, thanks so much everyone, until next week.So now we all know what the hell Michael Jamin is talking about. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for my free monthly webinars @michaeljamin.com /webinar. And if you found this podcast helpful or entertaining, please share it with a friend and consider leaving us a five star review on iTunes that really, really helps. For more of this, whatever the hell this is, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. And you can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane and music was composed by Anthony Rizzo. And remember, you can have excuses or you can have a creative life, but you can't have both. See you next week.

Michael Mann discusses the other Michael Mann; starting on radio before listening to it; recreating Charlotte's Web on the radio show Let's Pretend; his mom getting him into modeling at 5; a newspaper write up from 1952; performing on Broadway with Bette Davis in Two's Company; performing a portion of the show on Ed Sullivan; working with Lon Chaney, Jr. on a infamous 1952 adaptation of Frankenstein; playing Perry Como's son on his show; appearing in a play One Borrowed Time with Jean Lockhart; costarring on the 1955-1956 sitcom Joe & Mabel with Nita Talbot & Norman Fell; working with Ernie Kovacs & Milton Berle; pausing acting in 1960 to go into the Navy; coming back; guest starring on Delvecchio with future client Judd Hirsch; playing softball vs. Happy Days; Penny Marshall; working with Jackie Gleason twenty-five years later in Smokey & the Bandit; MASH; Taxi; Jim Burrows; Szysznyk; Christopher Walken is fine, just hasn't hosted SNL in a while; going to the Professional Childrens School; guest starring on All in the Family with Billy Crystal; Theodore Bikel; "Stephanie's Conversion" episode; becoming a manager; his clients Molly Shannon, Rachel Dratch, Robert Pine; what he's doing now

This week on Just Jack & Will, Sean and Eric review the episode where Grace puts a moratorium on fun in a misguided attempt to save her love life. Topics include Lilith Fair, headstands, taxes, and Rolodexes, and they wonder where exactly Jack lives at this point in the series. Then, they welcome actor Julian McMahon to talk about his single scene appearance as “Hot Guy In Elevator,” the early days of cable TV, and the very zen piece of advice he received from Jim Burrows. Bok Choy? Bok Choy.Have a question about Will & Grace, especially Season 1? We want to hear them! Email us at JustJackAndWill@gmail.com, call or text to 818-308-4012, maybe the gents will answer your question on the show!This episode was recorded prior to the SAG-AFTRA strike on July 14th.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Jay is an Emmy-winning writer and producer known for shows like The Simpsons, Frasier, George Lopez, Malcolm In The Middle, and School of Rock.Show NotesJay Kogen's IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0463124/Jay Kogen on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jaykogenJay Kogen on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jaykogen//Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAuto-Generated TranscriptsJay Kogen:Improv helps this to be able to risk. You don't know what's coming. You don't know what you're gonna do. And you commit to a character and you commit to an idea and you take it and see where it goes. It's no different than when you sit down to write a scene and you're about to commit to writing a scene. You might know where it's supposed to go, kind of. But this is what really, when it's time to commit to writing it,Michael Jamin:You're listening to screenwriters Need to Hear this with Michael Jam.Hey everyone, it's Michael Jam. Welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this today. I got a very special guest that none of you deserve to hear. You're just not good enough. But if you , But if you do wanna listen, pull over. If you're listening to your car, pull over. You gotta, because this is a big shot in the TV world. So with my guest, I have Jay Cogan and I have to, You gotta know who this guy, this guy's been around the block. Okay. He started at, I believe he started on the Tracy Allman show. He wrote on The Simpsons, the single guy, The Wrong Guy. This was back when he told his agent he would only do guy shows and everyone's like, This guy's out of his mind. But then he did Frazier. George Lopez. You did the first. I was in the other George Lopez.You're the one people think I run a Lopez. Nah, not that Lopez or Malcolm in the Middle. And I'm leaving off half your credits. I'm just skimming through this. That class Happi divorced to Troop Wendell and Vinny Kirsty, which is where we worked together for 10 minutes. Cuz I was for the freelance episode that we did. But that was only 10, honestly. That was a real fast interaction. Then Ned and Stacy School of Rock. And then now you're doing, I guess oversharing and Renaissance. I wanna talk more about that and the new Punky Brewster. I don't know how that happened, I wanna know more about that. But, okay, so my guest is Jay Hogan and I gotta say, I never told you this, Chad, but my first job was on Just Shoe Me. And so I was a young baby writer and everyone that, on that staff, it was like Laan and Andy Gordon Con and Stephen Engel and you were one of these names that always came up. It was j Hogan said the funniest thing on Frazier. J Hogan did this. He came into the room, he did that and you were on, Honestly, in my mind, you were like this mythical character. And even at the time I was like, I don't know if it's j Hogan or Jake Hogan. And I don't want to ask because I don't.Jay Kogen:No one does. No one knows. It's true. No one knows. It's tooMichael Jamin:Bad. Just ask. TrueJay Kogen:. I'm still mythical. By the way, just so you know, you're still, I may or may not be realMichael Jamin:Mythical. Right? Mythical, Okay.Jay Kogen:Yeah. Now you said I'm mythical. I don't know. So you don't know whether I'm real or not. SoMichael Jamin:I don't know. I don't wanna find out.Jay Kogen:I dunno.Michael Jamin:But we'll get to the bottom of this. PeopleJay Kogen:Who are driving, who pulled over, thank you for pulling over , I appreciate it. I hope you're safe. Put your hazards on.Michael Jamin:I So Jay, I got a million questions for you, but I guess let's start with the beginning. Everyone wants to know, how did you break in to Hollywood?Jay Kogen:Oh, it was a really rough ride, man. My dad was a writer producer, and I asked him to introduce me to some of his friends,Michael Jamin:. And let's talk about your dad. AndJay Kogen:I took it from there.Michael Jamin:But he wrote, and he wrote on a bunch of shows like Mary Tyler Moore show. What else did youJay Kogen:Write on? He did, he read, he wrote a Mary Tyler Moore, I believe. He wrote a Mash, he wrote A New Heart and The New Heart Show, Bob Newhart Show and Newhart, he wrote on The Covert Show and the Dean Martin Show and the Jim Davis show and the Donny Marie Show. And he worked on Empty Nest and he worked on a million shows and wrote one shitty movie,Michael Jamin:DidJay Kogen:Do it. It's called a soupy sales movie called Birds Do It. And my father was telling me that he can't bear to watch it . He hasn't seen it since 19 causeMichael Jamin:Rewritten. Cause Soki re rewroteJay Kogen:It. No, he wrote it completely. No, it's his fault. He's saying he's, it's horrible and it's his fault.Michael Jamin:But you grew up around it. So I thought you were from Brooklyn, but you grew,Jay Kogen:I was born in Brooklyn and my dad moved from Brooklyn. He was working on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson. And he moved out from Brooklyn to come work on the Dean Martin Show in 1968. Jesus. And that was my first experience on a sound stage, was on the Dean Martin Show on a Christmas episode. And it said, Ah, this looks like a fun job. Little did I know that writing is not a fun job. Writing is a really unfun job.Michael Jamin:People don't realize that. But what was it? So what was it growing around it? Did you talk shop with you? I don't know. TalkJay Kogen:About I, my talking shop was gonna be limited . But even whenMichael Jamin:You got older, did he tell you how to write a script?Jay Kogen:No. I mean, here's the thing. You grew up in a family that I'm sure was a funny family. No question if you're funny. You grew up in a funny family. My father,Michael Jamin:My dad invented comedy , he told me he made it up.Jay Kogen:So my father and mother are funny and if I try to make a joke at the table and get them to laugh, it was a great victory. So you'd hone your skills to make people laugh at the dinner table or on the living room couch. And that's kind of your writer's room training. And that's how you sort become the jokey guy in high school or junior high and become the jokey guy. So jokes, jokes were stock and trade in my house and my way to win my father's affection. So I tried to get good at it,Michael Jamin:But you still had to learn story structure, you had to write a script.Jay Kogen:Well that sucked. It took me years to do that because I was done. I had money. Most writers, we had jokes, but we didn't really understand story structure at all. We thought we knew it was funny and we thought, oh, just put funny stuff down and that'll be enough and that is way wrong. But that's what I thought. And I wrote some spec scripts and handed them to my dad and he said, This is terrible. Become a lawyer. He would say, Do not try to become a writer. This is awful. I wrote with some successful writers today who I work with in school. The Billy Ray who was at Academy Award and nominated writer and Robbie Fox and mm-hmm , Wally Wolodarsky became my partner at The Simpsons and Tracy Ownership. And we wrote all the time. And my father would read these scripts and go, These are terrible.Do not get into the business. And so eventually I started working on PAing, on TV shows, getting people delivering scripts at three in the morning and getting people lunches, . And if I got it wrong, they'd scream at me and mm-hmm , all that kind of stuff. But I would learn, sit in the writer's room and watch them work out stories and figure out how they did stories. So that process was really enlightening. And so my partner and I, I tried to write a script and we wrote a script with a, it's for it's Gary Channeling show. Mm-hmm worked out one of their stories, which were always strange. And we did that. They kinda liked the script but they didn't buy it. And then we wrote another one and they didn't buy that. But then that became a sample that we got a job at the Tracy Allman Show from. And that's how it worked. And at the Tracy Allman show, under Heidi Pearlman and Jim Brooks and Sam Simon and Jerry Bellson, I started to learn that drama had a big part in comedy. And so there wasn't just jokes, it was jokes and story and characters that you cared about and situations that had impact and stakes and all those kind of things that you know about when you're a kid. But you ignore it and go like that. What's funny?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Right. It's so funny cuz I talk about this all the time. I wanna say you're gonna confirm, I guess hopefully. Or maybe I'm just an old blowhard and I just sound like an old frank. But I have a feeling you're gonna confirm a lot of stuff that I say. Cause I'm always like, no, the story's the most important thing. Jokes cut. You can always interchange the jokes. And people don't quite understand that whenJay Kogen:You can be a blow heart and also be right. So , those two things are not incongruous. But yes I will. When I talk to writers, I say that the story is first, character is second and jokes are third that you need the story is the hardest thing. Breaking a story is in writing is the hardest thing. Breaking a story, breaking it, making it sure that it pops, making sure that we're not going down stupid roads. That's the hardest thing. Everything else, the jokes are the easiest thing honestly. And the most replaceable thing, you don't like a joke, we'll cut it out and put a new joke in a character as they're very important. But sometimes you write something you realize, oh I have two characters that are the exact same person, and I, I'm gonna condense them into one person. Or I have characters doing the same, serving the same purpose in the story. And that's not a good idea. And so the story has to come first and that's always the most difficult thing. I always recommend to all writers, , outline your shit. Outline what you're gonna do before you're write. Show the outline to somebody, , get feedback on it before you waste your time writing a script on a story that's not gonna work.Michael Jamin:So that that's exactly right. I have to wanna bring this up cause I don't wanna forget this, but cuz my partner and I came in, we wrote, we did a freelance on the Kew Show, which we were on . And I have to say it was one of the most enjoyable experiences cuz it was like the last time, I mean I want to hear your thoughts on this. It was the last time I really was in a writer's room full of writers who had more experience than me because now it seems like I'm the old guy in the room now I'm the veteran guy and I really enjoyed working. YouJay Kogen:Made that in your brand, you were now that's your brand, you the experience guy . Yeah.Michael Jamin:But it was so much fun cuz you get to hear other people's stories, you get to hear their wisdom. There was so many heavy hitters in that room.Jay Kogen:Yeah, that was a fun room. I mean I've had a lot of fun rooms. The rooms are still fun when I go and do them. So like and am the oldest guy in the room now maybe, but I'm not sure sometimes. Depends on the show. But I've certainly been around a long, long time. So I'm going on, it'll be 40 years soon. That's a long time.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it is a long time. Yeah. So what do you accredit your longevity to? Is it you're getting your last three jobs basically?Jay Kogen:Well, the same way I got my first three jobs. It's sort of praying, meeting the right people, saying the right thing, wandering into a stupid situation that you didn't know about. And suddenly they have job so not organized. And so this, they're these jobs and you should, you're going to audition for these jobs and this is how it's a much more hazardous, haphazard. There's a show here and they may need somebody and you should be developing something here and you have a million irons in the fire and we'll see what happens.Michael Jamin:So you're constantly hustling. So it's not like your agents just setting this up, Oh hey, they wanna hire someone that you fit the bill. Right? I mean it's not as easyJay Kogen:As that. No, rarely that rarely happens. And sometimes it does. But I mean honestly demographically, I'm not the key kind of person that they're looking for right now. . And there's a million reasons for that. I mean we should talk about that. There's a need, There has been a desperate need to make the playing field equal to all people from all different backgrounds and for many, many years, sort of Jewish white guys, Had a preference. So we're now the guy like me, Brooklyn Jewish, Brooklyn Encino Jewish guy is, there's a dime a dozen, there's a lot of us . And then there's a brand new writers coming from different areas of experience and worlds and different backgrounds and more women and more people of, of uh, LGBTQ and more bipo people. And they all need a chance. They're sort starting to get a chance. And that means there's less room for people like you and me. And there's shorter pickups and there's smaller rooms. And so it, it's become a lot harder.Michael Jamin:It's a lot more hustle. And so you're also developing, how are you going about developing? Is it your own ideas or what are you doing?Jay Kogen:Some are my own ideas, some are ideas that I have with other people that I meet and I think, oh that's a good idea. Let's see if I can fix that. There's a pilot we're working on called Oversharing that's based on a play that I saw at UCB about a year and a half ago. And so we took the characters and the lifestyle of the characters in the play. The actors were also the writers. So I went, worked with these two women in their late twenties about what it means you toMichael Jamin:Be. So you approach them, you approach them, you say, Hey, I wanna develop your show.Jay Kogen:Yeah. Yes. With the help of Naomi Odenkirk, who is a manager, not my manager, but had called me in to, had seen this and I wanted to work with her and she said this is a good thing. So she matched me with these people and we've been working on this together for a while. And now we wrote a pilot and we're sort of seeing where it goes.Michael Jamin:So, Okay. That's interesting cuz sometimes people, you write the pilot first you go out with a pitch but you decided to write it first.Jay Kogen:Well here's the thing, we had a couple different things going on. The writers who were the actresses who did this didn't have writing samples, but they wanted to be part of the show. So to prove that they are able to write, they wrote, so this is their first episode and they'd like to be in it too, but maybe we'll sell it without them in it. But this is to prove proof of concept. Here's this thing, we may not use it to sell the show, we may,Michael Jamin:And you kind of just oversaw it. You didn't help with the writing, you just directed them a little bit or noJay Kogen:. Well we pitched out the story together. I taught them kind of how the story structure's gonna work and and bring their play into a series. That whole transfer from interesting series, I guess I would get it developed by credit, something like that. But I didn't write the script. I helped rewrite the script, but I was involved heavily in the creation of it. So mean, my goal in this kind of thing is not to put my stamp on it. My goal is to take their world, their idea and bring it to life. And so the second I'm of putting my 50 year old guy brand on her, their 20 something life, it's gonna get ruined. So I just have to sit back and appreciate the world they're creating and then give my input here or there about maybe steering in certain directions and maybe this is what makes it fun of your story and reminding them what their goal was and who their characters were. Sometimes you'd lose that track of that.Michael Jamin:So how do you feel young writers have changed now? How are they different now than in attitude and preparedness andJay Kogen:Everything? So much dumber.Michael Jamin:So much dumber. ,Jay Kogen:They're the same. I honestly feel like they're exactly the same. Different, The writer's rooms are different. What we're allowed to say and how we're allowed to behave is different. Yeah, I'm not going to say it's better or worse. It's just different. In the old days, we could make fun of each other. . And I was famous for doing room jokes. I did jokes, a lot of jokes in a writer's room. Sometimes people would say things and I would die. Sometimes people would say things and I would run out of the room so that you could see me in the window and just keep on running. And if my car was in the visual aspect of when I would get in my car and drive away, I would do a lot of jokes. I would get physically ill at something that if I heard two people were kissing or something, like I would do jokes, , all of which was based on the idea that they know I'm joking.So I could make a joke about somebody who knew I was joking. I could make a joke about them or what they were wearing that day and they knew that I love them and I'm joking, right? That's not okay anymore. You cannot depend on people to understand your intention or even give a shit about your intention. If there's a joke at their expense, you're in trouble. So you don't joke about stuff anymore at anyone else's expense. We don't joke about their background, we don't joke about where they're from or who they anything about their lives. We keep it nice and businesslike and then we just try to do the work. So writer's rooms have become, ultimately for me, a lot less fun and a lot more, I wanna make a joke and I'm like, I can't do it cause I don't want to offend people, but I also don't want to get in trouble.And I think younger people can be offended. I'm, I'm working with some college kids now. I was teaching a class at USC and as a college professor, you have to really be on your, you're, this is not a writer's room, this is a school. But those writing students I'm working with all seem like they're making jokes all the time about all things. So they're more like I was when I was a young person, but I'm not making those jokes because I'm a professor. So I, I'm kind stay out of the realm of anything close to offensive or dirty or strange or anything.Michael Jamin:That's interesting. I didn't, didn't know, butJay Kogen:There's insane, I just wanna make jokes.Michael Jamin:I didn't know you were teaching at usc. How long have you been doing that?Jay Kogen:Half a minute. Oh, I had John Bowman, the writer, John Bowman was a friend of mine and he was teaching a sketch writing class and he unexpectedly died, which is good cuz when you expect to die, allMichael Jamin:Doesn't worse worth.Jay Kogen:So then they asked me to step in to fill, fulfill, fill it, the class that he was teaching. So I started doing that.Michael Jamin:Right. Wow. And I also know you, I didn't, But you're also doing, you do improv.Jay Kogen:Oh yeah, no, I've been doing it for my whole life. I started at the ground when I started in show business, my goal was to not be a writer. My goal was cause writing seemed, I watched my dad writing is lonely, it's quiet, it's intensive. , it seemed hard. I like working with people, I like having jokes, having good times. So I started being an actor and a standup comedian. And then when I was 16 I was, when I was a kid, I was an actor. When I was 16, I was still trying to be an actor and doing standup. And then I transitioned over to the Groundlings, which was a much better atmosphere to be part of than the improv or the comedy store. And I sort of figured out what character and story was based on that. That helped a lot. By the way, I do recommend that if you, you're a writer to take acting courses and take improv courses because you'll learn a shit ton of what you need to know. about being a writer. The other thing you need to do is take editing courses. If you can take a course in editing movies or editing TV shows, you'll learn what's important to keep in your script and what's not important to keep in your script. I didn't know a thing until I started editing.Michael Jamin:Do you have, But anyway, is there any goal, Is there a goal for you for, Are you just getting up there and performing is,Jay Kogen:What do you mean?Michael Jamin:Is there an end to it?Jay Kogen:You want, I'm hoping people throw roses at me. That'sMichael Jamin:My goal. But I don't know. Do you want to turn it into something or do you just enjoy the process of getting up there and performing?Jay Kogen:It's improv is cult a cultish comedy religion. So you do it because you learn the skill. It's like if I was a Glassblower and suddenly I learned how to make little glass animals when I was 16 and I still know how to do it and I like it. So I'm doing improv then the goal is to stay loose, keep your mind fresh. It helps improv helps this to be able to risk. You don't know what's coming. You don't know what you're gonna do. And you commit to a character and you commit to an idea and you take it and see where it goes. It's no different than when you sit down to write a scene and you're about to commit to writing a scene. You might know where it's supposed to go, kind of. But this is what really, when it's time to commit to writing it and there's a blank piece of paper and you have to be the character who says this other thing, then turn your mind to the other character that says this thing and what are they thinking and how are they acting and how are you being, and what does the scene look like and how do you fill the space with physicality and all the things.These are the things that you learn from improv and these are the things I still love doing it because it keeps me fresh and reminds me of that. It's fun to create.Michael Jamin:And how often do you go up?Jay Kogen:The group that I'm working with now go the Transformers. We go up about once a month and then I'm also an improv whore. And I will appear with any other improv group that asks me. Usually the Groundlings has a show called Crazy Uncle Joe and I do that sometimes. Or cooking with gas or sometimes I guess with another group. So it's just fun to work with different people inMichael Jamin:When you do that though, I mean, I know it's improv, but is there any kind of rehearsal with these people? Or are you up there for the first time with these people you don't even know.Jay Kogen:Again, it's something you've learned. You started by taking courses and saying, okay, this is how you do it. You agree , You know, pretend that you're stand up there and pretend that you're a bumblebee. Right. Okay. What would a bumblebee do? Bumblebee might go from flower to flower. A bumblebee might pollinate a, you just put your mind into the thing. So you slowly work up from the beginnings of improv, which is just agreeing. Then you're in a scene with another bumblebee and now you have to figure out what does one bumblebee want and what does the other bumblebee want in the scene. And you're a skill you develop to listen to what other people are saying, agree with it, add information, have an attitude, have a goal, and don't talk over each other and be physicalize the scene. These are things that you learn how to do over time and if you get good at it, you can do it forever.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you andMichael Jamin:It's absolutely free. Just go to michael jamin.com/watchlist. All right. So yeah, you were working, you knew , Tom Maxwell, and you're gonna tell that story.Jay Kogen:All right. So yeah, Tom was the runner of director of the Groundlings when I was there, and he had a very distinctive laugh and very distinctive kind of from one of the Carolinas, I forget which one.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I think it was North. Yeah,Jay Kogen:North, I think so Carolina. And he was great audience, a great audience. He loved the laugh, was wonderful to have. And he's the guy I interviewed with to get into the Groundlings to start working at the school. And then I worked starting at 16, I started doing the school and didn't get into the Groundlings until I was 18.Michael Jamin:Oh, interesting. Wow. So you really did the whole training there and that, Wow. Yeah,Jay Kogen:And there was the training we,Michael Jamin:I'm sure it was, I actually took a, So Tom was a writer, I think season three of just shooting me. And then he went up co-running it in the later years. And I remember he came in the first day, This is how important improv is. It's like the first day we're breaking a story and I guess he was just showing off and he just starts acting out the scene and doing all the characters. And I was like, look at this guy. Go. And we were all just staring and the writers says, We're all just staring. And I shoot the writers, I was like, Dude, what are you doing? Type start typing because everything he's saying is going into the script.Jay Kogen:Well, I've seen a lot of writers do that. James Brooks, James L. Brooks is able to do that. Just pitch out a scene from top to bottom. I mean, it's amazing. It's not, it's downgrading it. It's amazing when people can do that. But yeah, when we were at The Simpsons, we would pitch in character, People would pitch as Homer, pitch as Marge. We were , we used the voice and we were that. So it trains you to sort of pitch a joke and risk having everyone hate itMichael Jamin:,Jay Kogen:And by being improv,Michael Jamin:But it's also when you pitch a joke and it bombs, at least then you improv a funny back, a backup to it.Jay Kogen:I guess you can save yourself by acknowledging the bomb or not acknowledging it. It depends on how late its sometimes. Yeah, sometimes there's just silence. . Right, Let's move on, let's go pastMichael Jamin:It. Tom used to get very cranky around 8:00 PM I think is my bed. , you gotta work till midnight or whatever.Jay Kogen:Some people can't do the late nights.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Well so how do you go about, even other than working with these other actors, how do you go about developing shows? Do you have a process? What do you think?Jay Kogen:Well, anything that inspires you, and then you check it out with your people and say, Is there a show like this already in development? Or do we think that we can attach good people to this thing? So have to figure out how to position it. You have an idea then how do you position it? Who's it for? Can you create auspices to join forces with you to make it a more powerful sale? When's the right time to sell it? All those kind of things go into the mix of that kind of stuff.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And so what do you usually try to team up with a producer? Is that what you, I mean?Jay Kogen:Right. This Oversharing project is now with Sharon Hogan's company called Merman Mer. So, so they, especially women's stories. And this is a women's story and it's like it's a good company when you're dealing with the story of women in their late twenties in the sort of dismal landscape of what life is like for them.Michael Jamin:. Right. That's so interesting. Yeah. And so, what was I gonna say about that?Jay Kogen:I have a show that I'm writing with that I'm helping some newer African American writers with, and we're trying to get Kenya Barris to sign on to be part of this thing. So he's a good auspices for that. And then I have a show about Jewish boys from Encino and Mel Brooks would No jokingMichael Jamin:About it. Nope, that'd be great. Yeah, I worked with them. I worked with them on Glen Martin. You brought 'em in. I damn, I'm directing Mel Brooks. It was very intimidating.Jay Kogen:Now Mel Mels not intimidating, he just won't shut up. But ,Michael Jamin:It was still like, I'm telling him directions. Who might be telling Mel Brooks how to play the line? Well,Jay Kogen:If he didn't like, like your directions, he'd tell youMichael Jamin:,Jay Kogen:Yeah, I don't wanna do it. I'm gonna walk over here. Gonna,Michael Jamin:Yeah, there was definitely the case. I remember I like telling him, ask him to get him again. And he goes, No, no, you got it the first time. I'm like, Sounds good to me. .Jay Kogen:We worked with him on the Tracy Oman show and he had a million ideas about what he wanted his character to do and we was just like, Okay, go for it.Michael Jamin: Mel Brooks. Wow. Well, so wait, I had a thought, butJay Kogen:To go back to your original question, how do you develop something? Call Reiner the great Carl Reiner speaking. Bob Brooks gave me advice and he said, Figure out the hill. You're standing on that only the vantage point that only you have and make a show about that. So interesting. Make it about your world or your point of view or your, something that's really on your mind that only you can see. And that was his advice. And I thought that was good advice.Michael Jamin:And we hear that a lot. It's like, why are you the only people to write this show? And then you gotta think of a reason.Jay Kogen:You have to lie and say, Well , this happened to me or this is my thing. But obviously when you're a writer, you're bringing something that's personal to you. It doesn't have to experienced the thing to have experienced the emotion that the thing is connected to. Sometimes the show is about love or sometimes the show is about abandonment or sometimes the show is about lack of credibility or the show is about ego and the specifics of the show are not necessarily the specifics of your life, but that's something that you're very aware of and something that's meaningful to you. And if it's meaningful to you, then it's gonna have a resonance that's gonna count. And that's what I try to do when I write something. It's because I relate to it and I feel it and I feel like there's a truth in it. Right.Michael Jamin:These are all good words. And how did you, let's say a show, the remake for Punky Brewster, how did you get involved in that? I'm always wondering how thatJay Kogen:Happens. My friends, Steve and Jim Armita had created it and produced it and I'd worked with them on a show called School of Rock and they hired me to help them. I mean that was it a friend a I not, I didn't know anything about punk. Brewster hadn't watched it. Oh, I didn't, no know much about it, but I got to know about it. And so then we tried to make, it had been the development for many, many years. Universal was trying to use their own properties and make something of it. And so that's what happened. It sort of came together over the course of five years.Michael Jamin:Wow. See it takes how long it takes.Jay Kogen:Yeah.Michael Jamin:And now people, I get this question a lot. I don't know if you have a good answer for it, but do you have a preference to do single camera, multi camera animation?Jay Kogen:Well, I think it's harder to sell a single camera show. Everybody wants to buy. Every network says they wanna buy a single camera show, but then they don't always buy mean, excuse me, Every network wants to buy, say they wanna buy a multi camera show because it's cheaper, but they always wind up buying single camera shows because they're cooler. And so I'd rather sell the show that gets made. And so right now I'm interested in selling single camera shows. However, I love Multicam. I do like the process, I know it. But I watch many Multicam shows going like, Oh that's great. Tv I think the single camera shows are better cuz they're more like movies. You don't have to lean on jokes quite so much. It's more about the story. If you tell the filmically there's no laugh track. So it's just funny is, and it's different experience. I don't know you when the Multicam, if it will ever pop back as a main force. But it's, seeMichael Jamin:It'd be nice. Now you, I didn't look, Have you done any direction directing?Jay Kogen:Oh yeah, I love directing.Michael Jamin:Oh you do?Jay Kogen:Okay. It, I would give it up to just directMichael Jamin:Really What You like it that much. A lot of guys, guys haven't given up to. Why do you like that more than writing?Jay Kogen:It's collaborative. I'm not alone in a room, I'm given, I have material sometimes I've written the material so I know the intention. But I like working with cameras. I like working with the actors. I'm an actor, I'm an old actor. So I like acting and I like actors and I like working with them and figuring out the big picture and figuring out, making sure that all the pieces in the editing room are there. Having edited many shows now, knowing, okay, we need this reaction and that reaction and we get, this is the joke, this joke needs to be close or this joke needs to be wide or let's have a choice. Those kind of things are great. And when I've directed film, single camera, film action things, they've been great. I love using the camera, I love using stunts, I love using and anything that I can envision. I love storyboarding stuff and making them happen.Michael Jamin:Who do you feel you've learned the most from? What directors have taught you the most?Jay Kogen:Hitchcock, I mean,Michael Jamin:. Sit. Come guys. I hate say,Jay Kogen:I mean they're all great. I've learned from every single director we've worked from, I've been lucky enough to work with Jim Burrows and I've been lucky enough to work with,I mean there's Victor Gonzalez and I've been working just all these directors who know what they're doing. A guy named Jonathan Judge who I work with , who'd really just knows what he's doing. He knows the feeling, he knows how to keep the set alive and people happy. And there's a lot to do when you're director and what and when you're TV director, you're really trying to fulfill the vision of the producers , which is great. And when I direct even on shows that I've executive producing, I'm asking my other writers, Do I have it? Are you good? Are we satisfied? I'm not just saying I got it and I want everybody's opinion. I want to change things if people don't have it. Cause we are only here on the set this moment. I wanna get everything we need to get. And I like being collaborative and I like hearing notes. Unlike when I'm a writer, when I don't want to hear notes. As a director, I love hearing notes. Interesting. I love adjusting. Can we get that? Yes, absolutely. Let's go for it.Michael Jamin:That's so funny you say that. Yeah. Writers writers don't like hearing that. Don't the same way. I don't want to hear your notes hard.Jay Kogen:I thought about it maybe the thing that I liked and now you don't know whether it's gonna work and neither do why, but let's go with my way. Yeah, that's the general feeling.Michael Jamin:And how do you mostly handle Jesus studio notes or network note. And when you turn in a draft from a pilot or whatever, what's your first instinct?Jay Kogen:My first instinct is to tell them to fuck off. I hope that instinct . And instead I say, Well that's a good note. Or I put them into three piles, Notes that are good notes and sometimes I get really good notes. Notes that are neutral notes that are just like, you want to go that way versus this way. And they're kind of the same but alright. And notes that are show ruining. So the only notes I will fight about are the show ruining notes,Michael Jamin:,Jay Kogen:Everything else. I will say thank you and what a great idea and I really appreciate it and I will, cause I wanna be collaborative and I wanna take it, if they think a green couch is better than a blue couch, then if we can get a green couch, let's get a green couch. Yeah, that's fine. WeMichael Jamin:Call those lateral notes. This note will move the script three feet to the right. It's gonna take, I'm be up all night doing it and alright, I'll do it.Jay Kogen:Just do it because they need it and they want it. And it doesn't hurt the show. The ones that hurt the show. You gotta say, now I don't tell me about that. Because I think that thread that you're pulling ruins the show. And so let's talk about the thing about it. If it's a story about somebody adopting a dog and then the dog ruins their life and they say something along the lines of, But maybe the dog is nice. And you go like, Well if the dog is nice, then there's no show because then we don't have the conflict that's at the core of this particular thing. So we're just throwing out the whole show based than that and this, Well, why do you want the dog nicer? Well it's too mean in this thing. So we can then distill moments where they think, okay, it's not having fun watching the dog X, Y, and Z. Let's change those things to be things that are more fun for the executives or other people to watch. Then we can save the show but not do the show ruining note.Michael Jamin:Right? Because often you'll get notes from people who don't have much experience in the business and they just have this job, they're giving you notes and you don't want to hurt their feelings, but they don't know how to do it yet. So it's a delicate dance.Jay Kogen:And also they're not idiots people, the network executives, every writer likes to think a network executive, they're all idiots have decided to do this other thing. But they could have been writers and they might have been writers in another life and have, the reason they went into it is because they like TV and they like stories and they have an opinion. So embrace them as your partnersMichael Jamin:That'sJay Kogen:Try to make them your partner so that you have a happier existence with everyone.Michael Jamin:We both work with Steve Bald Ows and I was surprised to learn that he was an executive for many years. I was like, What? I felt like you've been a SP these years.Jay Kogen:I didn't know that, but I'm not shocked he has. You didn't know that leader of an executive? No, didn't he? I would a hundred percent believe him in a nice sweater coming in work as an executive. Great.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I get that. I was shocked. But he told me he thought it was his opinion that all executives really just wanted to be writers.Jay Kogen:I think he's right that all they do. And when they give notes, they're saying, What if this is a great idea? They're hoping that you receive their note. It's like, oh that's what a great idea. Thank you for helping me write the show. And so I actually try to receive those notes that way as much as I can.Michael Jamin:It's kind of like you also building an ally. It's like the more people you can have think it's their show, then they're gonna help put it on the air and stuffJay Kogen:But not think it's their show. It is their show. They're the people who are shepherding it through the network. They're the people every, it is their show. It's not like it's not us and them, we are them, they're the same people. We have to be a team in order to survive how it's such a weird ass landscape of getting a show on the air and having anybody know it exists and having people see it. So you have to get them their publicity people involved and the network has to like it and put it in a good time slot and care about it. And it's so easy to get lost. You have to take care of your show. You have to really do a good job of bringing it through and get as many allies as you can.Michael Jamin:And how do you recommend young writers basically break in now? I mean, cuz the landscape is so different now. What do you tell people?Jay Kogen:It's the same. Write something great, keep writing something until it's great, then show that thing to everybody you can. It hasn't changed. Nobody wants to be a salesman when they become a writer, but unfortunately part of being a writer is being a salesman. And so you have to then suck it up and make call people and in a friendly way and get them to read your script. Obviously you call and say, I love your work and will you do me this favor of reading my script? And I would love your notes. Nobody wants your notes. They only want you to say it's the greatest thing in the world and I love you and I wanna hire you. But show your script. Sometimes you'll get notes and sometimes you'll get compliments and sometimes you'll say, this is terrible. And then start again and you know, have to really work hard to get through it. Plus meeting people and expanding your social circle is really important. So fighting a way to join groups and be part of schools or be part, not schools exactly, but be part of communities, professional groups and communities and find your way to expand that way.Michael Jamin:So you told people basically to come out to Hollywood too?Jay Kogen:Yeah, I mean I don't know how you're gonna do that from Des Moines. I meanMichael Jamin:H is not coming to you.Jay Kogen:Although if you live in Atlanta, if you live in places where they're making TV shows, it's possible.Michael Jamin:But they're still mostly doing the writing out here, aren't they? AndJay Kogen:Yeah, but there are lots of production, lots of people. And you can meet people and I don't know, it depends on where you're at. It's, there's a few places where production, you know, can live in New York City. You can live in Atlanta, you might be able to, Toronto and Vancouver. There are places where a lot of shows are being made, so maybe there, but LA is still the place to come, even though it's not, it's hard place to move to. It's expensive and weird and isolating and there's a lot of big parts about it.Michael Jamin:Yeah, so interesting. So great to get your take cuz I don't know, you're kind of saying so many things that I've said, but it's good to hear different.Jay Kogen:Isn't it great to hear somebody confirm all your ideas?Michael Jamin:I'm not crazy.Jay Kogen:Everything you've ever believed.Michael Jamin:Well, I have such strong opinions on when I talking to people and I'm like, wow, I could just be stubborn, but this is how I see it. But yeah, it's interesting to hearJay Kogen:You. But I mean it is new and you know, gotta write something new. And if you can get attention to something, if you can put up a show or make a , find a way to get attention to your project, to YouTube, short films, Make something on the TikTok and find out a way to be available and get your stuff out there, then you have a shot. But it's hard. It's hard. I mean it's hard once you have a show on the air, you're your old boss. Levitan has a show called Reboot that's on Hulu, I think. Yeah, I don't know who watches it because who knows It exists. It's probably, you have great cast and an esteemed writing team making it and it will come and it, unless people hear about it, nobody will know.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And one thing I also wanna stress for new writers is like, we're struggling too. We're hustling too. None of it's easy. None of it's guaranteed. It's working it to, I always say you gotta work to break in. Well, but it's too hard. Yeah, don't tell me it's too hard. I know I do it everything.Jay Kogen:It is a struggle. And you sort of want gigs coming, possible gigs come and then they go and then they don't happen. And it's hard to get in the rooms and it's all that kinda stuff. And when you're running a show, which I recently, I had a show that I was getting a writing staff for. I had a million phone calls from a million people saying, Hey, you got room. And I had to tell a million of them no. Right. Great people, really great people that I had to say no to because, And so when they say no to me, I understand why it's not the makeup of the room that that's going to make the studio happy. They have to make up a room that's going to make the studio happy. And there's only a limited amount of spaces for people like me. And that's a lot of us who need jobs. So it's an interesting time for that.Michael Jamin:So is there anything else? Is there, we can plug you. How can people follow you? I'm so grateful that you did this talk. I'm so interesting.Jay Kogen:My plug Jake Hogan at Twitter and Jake Hogan at Facebook and Jake Hogan at Instagram. And I have a TikTok account, but I don't post anything there.Michael Jamin:You don't know how to use it.Jay Kogen:I don't know how to use it and I'm not interested in making Little, Little,Michael Jamin:I think you should doJay Kogen:It. I did a dance.Michael Jamin:I think you should do it. Yeah. Get on a trending soundingJay Kogen:Right. But I do, every Friday we do something on my Twitter feed called Philosophy Friday. So on Fridays around four 30, I have a bunch of people we use. IMichael Jamin:Gotta follow you on that. I didn't know that. What's about,Jay Kogen:Well, we just talk about the life and love and fear and how to overcome the difficulties of the world. Usually I post a question for the week and we can talk about that, but people can also come and just talk about their problems. Now Twitter is famously the most vicious and horrible of all the social media. So my idea was why can't we have a little window of people who are actually nice to each other and care about each other and try to help each other on this platform of shit. And so that's what I've done and I've almost three years into this and know that it's been fun.Michael Jamin:Wow. Alright, so some people can get in touch with you. That's that's really cool. I got, now I'm gonna be following you on that.Jay Kogen:Interesting. And then if you follow me on my social medias, you can see my improv shows when I do them. And yep. You can also follow all your followers. Should listen to Charlie Cogan, who's my son, who's a musician and he just released a new record and I want everybody to hear it on for sure. Or Apple Music or Amazon or wherever it is. Charlie Cogan, K O G E N.Michael Jamin:Excellent.Jay Kogen:Jake, Not Jake Ogan. It's Jake Cogan and it's Charlie Cogan. SoMichael Jamin:Yeah. I'm glad you cleared that up by cause I was too embarrassed to ask. And what kind of music does he do?Jay Kogen:It's mostly Zither music. And what is that? It's just pop, Pop Zither is a terrible, strange instrument. No, it's just pop music. It's really great pop music. I don't know if you like, Do you like Ed Sherin? Interesting. Something like that, butMichael Jamin:Not, And so he doesn't wanna go into comedy Ready?Jay Kogen:He might, He's really fun. He might and worked on stuff together. But he's really talented musician and he's sort of honed his skills as a music songwriter, singer, music producer. And those are, he's ready to go on that level. He's not good for him ready to go as a comedy writer yet, but he could. Right. Wow. He's college right now. He's studying, so we don't really his sing, his singles come out intermittently, but he's while he is at college.Michael Jamin:Oh good. Well let's make him happen. Go listen to him on Spotify.Jay Kogen:Charlie Cogan. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Jay, thank you again so much. This is good for me to hear. I dunno if anybody else heard it, butJay Kogen:It was great to hang with you. I'd heard a lot about you and I've seen your videos on the Thes and the weird Instagrams, and that's been amazing. How do you, did you decide to do that stuffMichael Jamin:After we get off the air, but basically I was telling my manager, I had a call him the other day and I was telling him what I was doing. He goes on TikTok, he goes, Oh, I know people forward me your videos, . They go, Have you heard of this guy? I was like, Yeah, my client . But yeah,Jay Kogen:It's interesting and I think it provides a valuable service, but it seems like it would be a little bit of a time suck, but also just there's value on the other side of it.Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll talk more about it. But thank you so much. Everyone. Go follow Jake Hogan and his sonJay Kogen:And ask me questions. You can reach me at any of these places and I'll answer your questions for free, just like Michael does. How do you like that? What Michael does that I'm gonna start and I'll agree with him on everything he says.Michael Jamin:, please. I need it. All right. Done Next time. Thank you so much. And oh yeah, Thank you so much.Phil Hudson:This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving your review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

Friends, I'm on a mission to show you the real person behind your favorite sitcoms (Cheers, Friends, Frasier, Will and Grace, The Mary Tyler Moore Show, Rhoda, The Bob Newhart Show, Third Rock from the Sun, the list goes on...). I think I succeeded! This is NOT the same interview you'll hear on other podcasts. You'll hear the backstory and inside scoop in today's intro. Then you get to know the man behind the icon. Send me your feedback! reallyfamouspodcast@gmail.com Buy Jim's book, Directed by James Burrows at my Amazon shop: https://amzn.to/3qQYQK8 Listen to my first talk with Jim: https://really-famous.com/now/jim-burrows Watch Jim and me on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbR3_S40FqVaWfKhYOTneSQ?sub_confirmation=1 Watch Jim and me on Facebook Watch: https://www.facebook.com/karamayerrobinson/  Join my special insider's group: http://eepurl.com/dnbUWL Shop through my Amazon storefront (hey, thanks!): https://www.amazon.com/shop/reallyfamous Check out my new sizzle reel: https://really-famous.com/kmr-reel Follow me on social media to see behind-the-scene pics of Jim and me and get my backstories with more of my fabulous celebrity guests: Instagram https://www.instagram.com/karamayerrobinson/  Facebook https://www.facebook.com/karamayerrobinson/  Twitter https://twitter.com/kara1to1    Celebrity interview by Kara Mayer Robinson Music: Take a Chance by Kevin MacLeod - Incompetech - Creative Commons    

He brought us classics like Cheers, Taxi, Will and Grace, Frasier, Friends and The Big Bang Theory. He's directed over 1,000 episodes of TV comedy. Jim Burrows and Alan compare notes on what it takes to make a show a success.

Thrilled to be joined again by pop culture historian and author Richard F. Brown to do the definitive 'Taxi' total rewatch and episode. We get into the mysterious beauty and melancholy of Bob James' 'Taxi' theme song 'Angela', and the temporary filmed open that became so identified with the ennui and thwarted ambitions of the beloved cabbies of the Sunshine Cab Co. We discuss all the characters and the actors who played them: Latka and Andy Kaufman, Danny DeVito and Louie, Marilu Henner and Elaine, Judd Hirsch and Alex, Christopher Lloyd and Reverend Jim Ignatowski, Tony Danza and Tony Banta, Jeff Conaway (RIP) and Bobby, Carol Kane as Simka, and more. 'Taxi' is one of the most interesting sitcoms in television history because of the originality of its approach to filming with four cameras instead of the sitcom-traditional 3 cameras. This allowed director Jim Burrows to capture what he calls the essential surprise of comedy being performed live in front of a studio audience. Any discussion of 'Taxi' offers the best opportunity we have to discuss Andy Kauffman and his unique and often challenging approach to comedy and performance art in everyday life. We cover his outstanding and long-shelved 1977 TV special, which features one of the most amazing and little-discussed Andy Kauffman bits: a heartfelt and very real and emotional conversation he has with Howdy Doody, his childhood TV hero.  And we cover Andy's famous prank on the Taxi cast and brass through the casting of his alter ego Tony Clifton, and Tony Clifton's firing and subsequent massive scene on the soundstage involving security guards and several extremely pissed off producers and actors. This is an episode that will hopefully share with you some things you might not have known about 'Taxi' and afford us all the opportunity anew to appreciate the fact that this series uniquely brought us out of this world talents like Andy Kauffman, Christopher Llloyd, Danny DeVito, and Carol Kane in ONE SHOW. Any series would and could be built on having one of those dynamic talents in the cast; Taxi had all four. Unreal!

Jim shares his journey through his career before finding his passion for teaching.  You will also be able to hear Jim' love for Running (25-50 miles per week) and for Coaching young people.

Our wonderful friend Jim joins the pod today to talk with Blaire and Shawn about his Disneyesque cross country coaching journey, the value of that thing called cross training, the excitement of fall races, and that wonderful crew called Trackstreet.Follow Jim on InstagramFollow For Your Run on InstagramKeep up with Shawn & Blaire on Instagram 

Rik Offenberger, Jim Burrows, Eric N. Bennett, the creators behind G-Man comics, join Paul and David to discuss Simon N. Kirby Agent as well as the G-Man Universe. Learn more about them at https://g-man-comics.com/ (This is the full version as Twitch cut off.) Join the conversation at https://powerssquaredcomicbook.com/srcc Music by Andre Jetson - Bipolar (Original Mix)

We're back with the man began the Trackstreet Instagram Running Community! Jim Burrows has an amazing story from walking his son to cross country practice and being handed the assistant coach title the same day. He's a man with great integrity and just a love for all things running: the community, the support, the connections and the camaraderie. He'll be the first to tell you that running changed him and for the better. He's healthier than he's ever been, he's happier than he's ever been and he's doing more running than he ever thought he would. He's got a fantastic story to tell and I think you will enjoy it too IG: @jim_burrows_runs@trackstreet.runnersBrand Ambassador for @aftershockz@alter_ego_running@endurance_tap@nuunhydration@honeystinger@run_n_tri_nc

James Burrows, possibly the most iconic, respected and talented television directors of all time, is in the building! Actually, I'm in HIS building, aka the NBC/Universal lot, aka the set of Will & Grace. You know James, aka Jimmy, aka Jim, from these TV shows: Cheers Taxi Friends Will and Grace The Mary Tyler Moore Show Man with a Plan Mike & Molly 2 Broke Girls The Big Bang Theory The Millers Newsradio Wings The Hogan Family Gary Unmarried Rhoda Lou Grant The Bob Newhart Show Laverne & Shirley The Comeback Jim is now a guest on the iconic interview series Inside the Actors Studio. He's interviewed by his Cheers and Frasier star and longtime friend Kelsey Grammer. I saw it being filmed. You can see it on Ovation TV. Catch it here: https://www.ovationtv.com/inside-the-actors-studio/ In this master class, Jim breaks down his iconic TV series. You'll get inside scoop. You'll learn a lot. You'll be in awe of him, I think -- just as I am. He shares stories on: Playing "Hey, Butt Double" on Friends Characters we've never seen, like: Vera on Cheers Maris on Frasier Lars on The Mary Tyler Moore Show Carlton the Doorman on Rhoda He talks about relationships with: Lisa Kudrow David Schwimmer Matt LeBlanc Courtney Cox Jennifer Aniston Matthew Perry Michael Patrick King Cloris Leachman Andy Kaufman Tony Clifton Danny DeVito Marilu Henner Tony Danza Steven Spielberg Martin Scorsese Mary Tyler Moore Edward Albee Debra Messing Eric McCormack Jim gives advice on: ambition, drive and luck Hollywood connections getting your foot in the door ENJOY! In the meantime, connect with me here: Insider news - ReallyFamousPodcast.com/contact Instagram - @karamayerrobinson Facebook - @karamayerrobinson Twitter - @kara1to1   Enjoy these extra treats: Jim Burrows's video Q&A - YouTube.com/reallyfamous Behind-the-scenes photos - ReallyFamousPodcast.com # Donate $1 or $3 or $10 to Really Famous and get a shout-out from me on the show: Patreon.com/reallyfamous or ReallyFamousPodcast.com/donate # Celebrity interview by Kara Mayer Robinson. Music - Take a Chance by Kevin MacLeod - incompetech - Creative Commons

Hey SeriLovers!!! First, HAPPY VETERANS DAY!!!!!! And to celebrate that, we are paying homage to the sitcom veteran James "Jim" Burrows, who has directed more that 1000 sitcom episodes and the man behind shows like:- Laverne & Shirley- Cheers- Taxi - Frasier- Friends- Will & grace - The Big Bang Theory- 2 Broke Girls - Mike and Molly  and many more!!!! Tune in, as Rich "The Hot Broccoli" and Lady Alexa discuss this incredible man's career, and their opinion on each of the shows he directed.  Fact Check:- Lady Alexa meant Brie Larson not Allison Brie when she referred to the Disney Channel Original Movie  "Right On Track"  As always, we hope you enjoyed the show and to help us a little we'd love if you could subscribe on your preferred podcast library, rate us, leave a comment, like us on YouTube, and let your friends know to help grow the Seriology community more and more every little day.  You could also talk with both Rich and L.A. on:- Instagram: @SeriologyTV_Podcast- Twitter: @SeriologyTV  Until then SeriLovers!!!

Black & Tan Dynamos: The Wash & Wear Manchester Fun loving, smart, active, long-lived, wash and wear… The Manchester Terrier is an all-around favorite as a companion. The https://americanmanchesterterrierclub.wildapricot.org/ (Manchester Terrier) has two varieties, Standard and Toy, both descended from the extinct black and tan terrier, according to a panel of experts at the American Manchester Terrier Club National Specialty. The Manchester’s job was to hunt rats and other vermin in England and they retain the high prey drive today. Our experts encourage new owners to be sure their Manchester is on lead when outside a fenced area. “You can have a good recall, but a squirrel will always take precedence,” said Marla Zoz. Key Manchester Points: High drive, are food motivated but easily distracted. Very smart, pick up new skills quickly. Get very attached to their people. Suitable for a house or apartment. Need lots of physical activity. Require a lot of attention. Love being a part of the family. Need to spend time to develop well balanced companion. Low maintenance grooming… nails, clean teeth, wash and wear. Longevity – 15+ years. Health issues include cardiomyopathy and vWD, a bleeding disorder. When visiting with a potential breeder, be sure to ask if he/she is testing for these conditions with available DNA tests. Standard Manchester Terriers are allowed to have naturally erect ears, button (shown here) or cropped. Toy Manchesters are only shown with naturally erect ears. “You want to go, they’re ready at a moment’s notice. You want to cuddle on the couch, they’re right there,” said Jim Burrows. Toy Manchester Terriers are under 12 pounds, Standard are 12-22 pounds. These dogs are terriers, whether standard or toy sized, our panelists noted. They can “talk a lot.” Everyone agreed that the “four-footed burglar alarm” breed can be vocal. “They’re going to bark if they see something they don’t know,” Burrows said. While generally aloof with strangers, the Manchester will warm up to new folks quickly. The breed needs a lot of socializing to develop a well-rounded dog, the breeders all agreed. Dog aggression, typical of many terriers, is manageable with appropriate socializing and training. Pure Dog Talk is sponsored by: Support this podcast

This week in part two of the interview, Ken and Jim Burrows discuss the technical aspects of directing, the challenges of filming a live show, and the unique requirements of sitcom pilots. They also discuss some very interesting stories about the huge hit sitcom Friends. Some of Jim's credits include; Cheers, Friends, Wings, Will & Grace and many more.  

On this week's Hollywood & Levine, Ken interviews 10-time Emmy winner, Jim Burrows, who has directed over 1000 episodes of sitcoms including the pilots of CHEERS, FRIENDS, FRASIER, and WILL & GRACE. They discuss his career, and focus primarily on his process.  It’s a master class on TV directing. 

When it was announced that Will and Grace was coming back, no one was more excited and surprised than my friend Amy Crofoot. Amy was a stand in for Debra Messing during the first run of the series and was invited to come back and share her talents for the second run. At first it was only going to be for a limited run, but the show was so popular NBC greenlit it for more episodes. Amy had no idea that by saying yes it would quickly expand into several seasons worth of work. I have known Amy for nearly a decade and she was the second guest on Motherhood in Hollywood. I chose her because she's an amazing person and friend. But she was also the only person I knew with kids in the industry and had graciously shared her knowledge and experiences with me. I remember I was super pregnant and would go over to her house to ask her advice on everything from giving birth to wiping butts. She was a wealth of information and was my first example of why moms NEED other moms in this business to support each other. On paper, Amy and I should be competitors. We are both tall, curvy redheads with perfect comedy timing. However, her kindness forced me to put my weird competitive side away and just enjoy being her friend. We used to see each other at casting workshops and auditions and rather than being enemies, we became friends. Now this beauty is sharing how her life has been as a mom of 2 boys while working on a hit NBC sitcom. She explains what exactly a stand in does and how her role was expanded this season to dialogue coach. She is actively learning her craft on a set with huge stars as her teachers. Then she comes home to her babies and gets to enjoy the fruits of mom life. Jim Burrows and the Will and Grace team love her so much, they even wrote a part for her in the season finale this season. You have to check her out!   This is what Motherhood in Hollywood is all about. Amy was a huge part of my podcast when I began and I'm so honored to have her come back on and share how her life has changed in the last 4 years, what she's learned on set, and as a mom. Don't forget to subscribe to Motherhood in Hollywood and leave a review of this episode!

On this week's LadyWatch agenda: Ryan and Jason take a moment to live-stream Celine's first show back in Vegas after the death of her manager/husband/everything, speculate on Sandy Duncan's hasty exit from Broadway's 'Finding Neverland', pick out the Lady highlights in NBC's tribute to Jim Burrows, Ryan finds Mary Louise Wilson On Demand, Jason still isn't sold on the 'Ab Fab' movie teaser, Star Jones' sudsy take on 'The View' drama makes it to the small screen, Trudie Styler's new film partnership, Yoko Ono's new-old album sequel, Cindy Williams takes Sally Struthers' boots on a high school tour, Emma Thompson sticks her foot and some cake into her mouth, Sarah Brightman sings to a spaceship (completely utterly literally), and much much more!

Jim Burrows

Get ready for a weird one! Casey's love for director Jim Burrows meets new heights, Chris is sick of Ross, Seinfeld Sidebar, Name That Barista, Friends Facts, and the revelation that a huge colloquialism came from this episode of "Friends!" THIS ONE HAS IT ALL!