Podcasts about salt my game

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit laurathomas.substack.comOne of the things that came out of the 2023 Reader Survey was that you wanted a Q+A/AMA of the pod. So we're giving it a shot. Now our monthly pod schedule will consist of 1-2 guest episodes a month, with 1 Q+A with myself and Lucy. Guest episodes will be free for everyone to listen to, with the Q+A episodes being a perk for paid subscribers. In these episodes, we'll be answering the more juicer questions… and the answers may be a little on the spicy side! We're sharing a trailer of today's episode with free subscribers to give you a taste of what you can expect. And we'll always make sure there's something in there for everyone - whether you're a parent or a nutrition student, or just here for rice cake drama (IYKYK).Today I'm joined by CIHAS audio engineer and host of the podcast , Dearlove, to answer listener and reader questions. Tune in to hear us:* Revive and old classic (DSMG fans, this one's for you!)* Share non-lame-gym-bro snack ideas for pre/post workout* Explain why a certain gut health shot is a lot like a bad night out* Talking about why it's important to be calm in the face of a new medical diagnosis rather than falling into diet culture* Offering some advice towards handling the challenges of co-parenting with someone whose views on diet culture are very different from your own* And lastly, why you should ignore influencers who boast about their kids eating stilton and sushiAgain paid subscribers can set up their own private RSS feed to listen to paid-only episodes in their favourite podcast player by following these instructions.This was a super fun episode to create and I know you'll love it too!Find out more about Lucy here.Follow her on Instagram here and here.Follow here on Substack Follow Laura on Instagram here.Subscribe to Laura's newsletter here.TranscriptLaura: Hey, and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack podcast, where we talk about food, bodies, and identity, especially through the lens of parenting. I'm Laura Thomas. I'm an anti diet registered nutritionist, and I also write the Can I Have Another Snack newsletter.Lucy: And I'm . I am the audio engineer for CIHAS podcast normally, and I also host the food podcast, . Uh, I'm delighted to be joining you for this, Laura. This is really fun.Laura: So we're mixing it up a little bit today to answer some listener questions that you all sent in. I've asked Lucy to join me so that I'm not just sat here talking to myself, but Lucy, I actually have a little surprise for you that I didn't tell you about. So I'm putting you on the spot, but don't worry, It's hopefully a fun surprise. It's not high stakes. But I don't know if you know, but I used to have another podcast called Don't Salt My Game. And at the beginning…Lucy: I'm aware of it.Laura: Oh yeah, you've heard of it. Okay, that's good. That's a good start. At the beginning of every episode, I used to ask my guests some quick fire questions. So I'm just like, rapid speed, throw them out and justLucy: I remember this.Laura: Just throw whatever comes to the top of your head, okay? So it's meant to be fun.Lucy: Okay, I'm on the spot. I'm in the hot seat. I'm ready.Laura: You ready? Alright. Here we go. Tacos or pizza?

Alright team, after a little hiatus from the CIHAS pod for a month, we're coming back hard with Molly Forbes. Molly joined me back in May 2022 on the Don't Salt My Game pod where we discussed how to stomp out diet culture in schools, and I'm so excited to have her join us in today's episode.This time around, we discuss what the NCMP is, what it looks like in different schools, why you might want to opt your kid out, how you even go about doing that, and what you can do if you're worried about your child feeling left out if they're the ones who are left in the classroom while everyone else goes to get weighed.Find out more about Molly's work here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Subscribe to my newsletter here.Read more about the history of and evidence behind the NCMP here:Here's the transcript in full:INTRO:Laura Thomas: Hey and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast, where we talk about appetite, bodies and identity, especially through the lens of parenting. I'm Laura Thomas, I'm an anti-diet registered nutritionist and I also write the Can I Have Another Snack newsletter. Today I'm talking to Molly Forbes.Molly is a journalist, campaigner and non profit founder. She's the author of the book Body Happy Kids: How to Help Children and Teens Love the Skin They're In and she's the founding director of the Body Happy Organisation CIC a social enterprise dedicated to promoting positive body image in children. I asked Molly to come on during the back to school season because we need to talk about the National Weight Measurement Programme, or the NCMP.This is the programme where children in England have their height and weight taken in schools at age 4-5, so in reception and then again in year six, which is ages 10 or 11. My understanding is that this happens in various forms throughout the UK. So in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland too. Although let me know in the comments how it's different for you or, you know, what the similarities are if you're in one of those countries. The UK government have taken the position that this is an innocuous practice. But, as I discussed with Molly, this is not reflected in the body image research. The programme is associated with poorer body image, which in turn is linked to disordered eating, body preoccupation, and lower overall sense of well being.So Molly and I, in this episode, go on to discuss what the NCMP is, what it looks like in different schools, why you might want to opt your kid out, how you even go about doing that, and what you can do if you're worried about your child feeling left out if they're the ones who are left in the classroom while everyone else goes to get weighed.I really hope you will share this episode with your school WhatsApp group, your friend group, with the teachers in your school, and help end the tyranny of the NCMP. You can also share Body Happy Org and Any Body UK's Informed Decision Making Pack and my writing on the NCMP, all of which I'll link to in the show notes for you.All right, before we get to Molly, I want to tell you real quick about the benefits of becoming a paid subscriber to the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter and community. Now, I know we're not used to having to pay for content on the internet, and why would you pay for something where 85% of the content is free? Well, that's a great question. I'd love to answer it for you. Well, because without paying supporters, this work just wouldn't be possible. As well as supporting me in the time it takes to research, interview contributors and write articles, your support goes towards paying guests for their time and their labour, as well as a podcast and newsletter editor. You also help keep this space ad and sponsor free so I don't have to sell out to advertisers or exploit my kid for freebies. Plus keeping the community closed to paying subscribers only means that we keep the trolls and the fatphobes out.I recently asked the CIHAS community why they support the newsletter, and this is what they had to say: “I am a mum of one, fairly adventurous, self-proclaimed vegetarian and one theoretical omnivore. The latter survives almost exclusively on added sugar and butter, but mostly sugar. I consumed all the picky eating advice, some of it really well-meaning, and pretty mellow. But by seven years in, I was more frustrated, confused, and full of self-doubt than ever. Enter CIHAS. The no-nonsense, cut through the bullshit, science-backed content is exceptional. The content about sugar is especially helpful to me, and the anti diet lens is an anecdote to my extremely anti-fat slash diet-culture conditioning. And as an American, the British references are just an added bonus to say your work is actively changing. My life is not an understatement. Thank you.” Well, thank you to the reader who shared that lovely testimonial, and if that hasn't inspired you to become a paid subscriber, I don't know what will. It's just a fiver a month or £50 for the entire year, and you get loads of cool perks, as well as just my undying gratitude for supporting my work.Head to laurathomas.substack.com to subscribe now.  All right team, here's Molly. MAIN EPISODE:Laura Thomas: Hey Molly, can you start by telling us a bit about you and the work that you do? Molly Forbes: Yeah. So I run an organisation called the Body Happy Organisation. We're a CIC, so a Community Interest Company, or a social enterprise. Or if you're in the US, you might know that model is like a non profit. And essentially what we're all about is trying to create environments that allow children's body image to thrive.So we're really looking at prevention and we're looking at how we can create, kind of, culture change in schools and youth clubs and anywhere that children hang out and are to help, kind of, create an environment that just allows kids to just be at peace and friends with their body. And then all the other benefits that come with that, including how they treat other children with bodies that don't look or function like their own.And I also wrote a book called Body Happy Kids, which is for adults,  teachers, parents…I'm not a nutritionist. I'm not a dietitian. I'm not a psychologist. But I'm a journalist by trade. So I've really interested in that kind of media and culture angle when it comes to this subject. And that kind of informs, I guess, the lens that I come to this through. But in our organisation, we do have lots of different people from a range of different disciplines, which I think is also what makes us kind of special because we're not at it just from like a body image researcher lens, for example, or just from a nutritional food lens.We're looking at it from, like, a range of different perspectives.Laura Thomas: Yeah, the work that you do is really important. And one sort of thread of the work that you're doing is around the National Child Measurement Programme or the NCMP, which is what I wanted to ask you about today. So when this goes out, it's September, it's back to school time. And I know there's a lot going on on parents' radars at point in time, but I don't think that the NCMP registers as like something that's high up parents list, you know, in that back to school period.And in fact, I think a lot of parents don't even know what that is, or the fact that their kids will automatically be enrolled in it. So I wondered if you could start by explaining what the NCMP is and why do schools do this?Molly Forbes: Okay, so the NCMP, it stands for National Child Measurement Programme.  it was brought in to schools in 2006. And then in 2012, they started including the feedback element of the programme. And essentially what it is, it's exactly what it says on the tin. It's a national child measurement programme.So what happens is if your child goes to a state funded school,  and they're in reception or year six, then they will be weighed and they will have their height and their weight measured in school, as part of that programme, unless you opt them out.So in 2018, when the GDPR rules changed around GDPR, they kind of changed the way that, like, the logistics will work. So what you really need to know is if your child's in reception or your child's in year six from September, like in this next academic year, they will be weighed in school, unless you actively opt out.It's a way for the government to collect data on kids' height and weight. across the UK. But it's been reframed as this sort of health intervention over recent years as the, you know, the rhetoric around, you know, the O word, obesity, which I don't use that word in my work, but that's the word that we'll see, we'll see in here in the media.As that kind of rhetoric has really got more aggressive then the argument for the NCMP has been that, like, this is a positive thing for our children's health and it's really important and…it's a totally politicised programme.Laura Thomas: Yeah, and so for people who aren't in England, reception is, sort of, I guess the equivalent of like kindergarten or primary one if you're in Scotland, where those kids are four turning five years old. So they're really little still. And then the other thing that I think is important to point out is that year six kids are sort of around that 10,11 mark and their bodies might be preparing for and getting ready to go through puberty or might already be starting the process of puberty. And that is something that is not factored into the sort of the BMI equation and the feedback that is given to parents. And that, that's kind of another piece of this story as well, isn't it, Molly, that the introduction in 2012 of what is colloquially known as the obesity report. And of course, I don't use that word either, but that's the terminology that families will hear. And so basically, the NCMP transitioned from being just a very objective measure of, you know, population changes over time to something that that offers direct feedback, but also in a way that can be stigmatising and judgmental and really upsetting for for families to receive, which we will talk a bit about in a minute.But can you, like, get us into the government's mindset, if you can, around this programme? Why do they think that this is a helpful exercise to put kids through to weigh them in schools, you know, around their peers, with no kind of like real measure of their health, just looking at you know, what we know to be sort of a bullshit measure of their relationship with gravity, their body's relationship with gravity,Molly Forbes: There's the public reasoning and then there's, like, the real reasoning. Actually like we could just cut out all of the waffle around the public reasoning, which is what they'll say that actually, it's good for kids health. It's important that we know what you know, the trends are when it comes to height and weight. It helps us make public policy decisions. It's really important that we have this data. But we could actually just cut all of that out and actually get to the heart of the matter, which is it's all about money. So previously, like back in the day, many schools would have had a school nurse and that nurse would have been like on site and been the person that, you know, if the kids had a tummy ache, they go and see the school nurse, the school nurse would have done like head lice checking. They would have done health education with the kids in terms of like that kind of public health education piece and they would have been like, quite a key part of the school environment just in the way that like the teachers were.And the role of the school nurse was… the focus was really on that holistic kind of health and thinking about health in a holistic way. It's really expensive to do that. So what's kind of happened over the years is the NCMP has been brought in as almost a way to kind of replace that sort of holistic school nurse approach.Now, what you need to know about the NCMP is that many people delivering the NCMP aren't actually school nurses. They work for local authorities and they work in the health team. So they work in the school nursing teams but they're healthcare assistants. They don't have the training and the expertise that a school nurse has.It's not the schools that, that take the measurements. What will happen is the outside teams will come into the school on a pre-organised and agreed day of the year, if the school agreed to it, and the children will basically be lined up and it'd probably be in the school hall or in a separate classroom.And one by one the children will go in and they'll stand on a scale and they'll have their height and their weight measured and they'll probably get a sticker and they'll go back out into the classroom. And the people who are actually taking those measurements are, nine times out of ten, not school nurses, they are healthcare assistants.Now that is so much cheaper to run than having a school nurse who's on site in a school who's actually going in and like teaching kids about like personal hygiene maybe or being there, like if a kid has a tummy ache or like they fall over in the playground, like having someone who's got that level of expertise to actually treat the child on site. It's expensive to, to run that kind of programme and it's much, much cheaper – even though the NCMP costs loads of money – it's much cheaper as a form of public health policy programming than actually having like dedicated school nurses who actually like proper teams who come in and do like proper impactful work with kids and with schools. And so what's happening is the NCMP – which it is a data collection exercise, it's being reframed as a health check – and so lots of parents are then worried about opting out because they think, well, it's a health check. Just the same way that, like, your child's two year check with their health visitor is a health check. People think it's the same thing. And it's really important to know that it is not the same thing. It is absolutely not the same thing.Laura Thomas: And I think I've seen definitely in the sort of the template letters that the government has for schools to use and local authorities to send out to parents about it. The way that it's framed is very much as not just as a, an exercise in health, but also it's framed as being…they don't go as far as to say that it's mandatory, but they give the impression that it's you know, quite a critical check, almost like, like you say, the two year checkup.So tell me a bit more about how that government narrative compares and contrasts with what you see at Body Happy Org and what other researchers and advocates are saying about this programme.Maybe you'll get into this, but you know, it's something that, that really strikes me again in that literature that they, I say literature, but you know what I mean? Like the template letters that they send home to schools…is one of the things that they say very clearly is that there's no negative impact whatsoever of this programme and they claim to have tested that.  But I don't think that…well, I know that's not the full story because I've written about it and I know you know that's not the full story. So can you kind of, like, fill us in on maybe some of the things that is, is less transparent in the communications from people administering this programme?Molly Forbes: Yeah. In 2021, the Women and Equalities Committee released the Body Image Report, and one of their key recommendations was to urgently reassess the NCMP, National Child Measurement programme. And the government's response to that was that they had absolutely no intention of urgently assessing it. In fact, they wanted to double down on it. And, and get teams in and do even more weighing and even more measuring of kids.Now, we created this information pack around the NCMP so parents could actually make a fully informed decision. And we work with Anybody UK, the charity on that pack, it was like a collaborative piece of work that we did together. And they gave evidence to the Women and Equalities Committee as part of that initial report. And what's really interesting is in the rebuffal that the government kind of provided, they cited a study from 2008. And this is often the one that's kind of cited, that found that actually, according to this study…so they basically looked at London schools, and they said that, well, actually, it doesn't cause any issues and, and in some cases, you know, children actually really enjoyed it.Now what's really interesting and important to know about that study is that it was, first of all, it was an opt in study. So parents opted in to get their children weighed. They chose to put their children forward for this. The NCMP is an opt out situation. So unless you actively opt out, your children will get weighed.So already you've got to think, right, who are the people who are opting their children in? So perhaps if a parent thinks that their child is more likely to get, you know, a gold star and be in that healthy weight range category. they're probably less bothered about their child being weighed because they're going to feel like their parenting is validated because their child's body size is fitted, fitting the size that society is telling them that they should fit.So already, like, we can assume that like you know, who are the families, what's the weight range of the children who are going to be measured as part of that study. But the other thing to know is that actually that study did find that children who were found to be in the quote unquote overweight range, their parents were more likely to then follow that up by putting them on a restrictive diet.Laura Thomas: So the research that the government themselves are citing is contradicting the claims that the government are making.Molly Forbes: Well, the claims that the government are making is that actually that's a positive thing and that that's a healthy kind of outcome. So basically what they're saying is that, um that whole study was conducted through the lens of like, you know, healthy weight.  And so essentially, if fat kids get put on a diet, or if some fat kids are harmed in the process, then that's a necessary evil, or it almost doesn't matter.Laura Thomas: Right. Fat kids are fair game for being collateral damage.Molly Forbes: Yeah, completely. Exactly that. And they, they didn't look at it through a lens of how it might impact a fat child, or a child who's, who for whatever reason is more likely, is less likely to come out in that like healthy weight, weight range category that we know is like so flawed anyway.Laura Thomas: Mm hmm.Molly Forbes: So that's their like big study that they cite that's like, oh, there's nothing wrong with it. Most children even enjoyed it, but actually they weren't looking at it. They were looking at it from completely the wrong lens and actually there is so much other evidence to show that weighing children in schools is actually really harmful and the potential for causing harm is massive on so many different levels but the government just basically chose that one study and just keep citing it over and over again as their response and like almost basically refusing to look at the other evidence.Even when it was literally handed to them on a plate as part of that report. Laura Thomas: Yeah. So tell us a little bit more about the harm. So what kind of things do you think are the sort of the fallout from a programme like this?Molly Forbes: Yeah. I guess you can break it down into like two areas. So you can look at the individual harms and the individual child. And then you can look at the, the bigger piece, which is the kind of,  the more like the systemic factors and like the culture piece and the environmental piece, which is what we're kind of interested in at Body Happy.So from like an individual level…by the government's own admission, it's more likely that, that if a child comes home with a letter saying that they're not in the healthy weight range, that they're in the quote unquote overweight range or obese range, that their child will put them on a diet.Now that's really dangerous. I think if someone's listening to this podcast by now, they probably will have done the work to understand why diets are harmful. But it's particularly harmful. Like these are children that we're talking about. We're talking about children who are, you know, four and five, you know, who actually…I mean, you can speak to the health risks of putting a child of that age on a restrictive diet. But then also we're talking about children who are 10 and 11, whose bodies are changing and are going through puberty, which is again, I mean, it's not good to put any kids on diets, but these are two ages when you definitely, definitely do not want to put kids on diets.You can probably speak a bit more about that in terms of like that individual impact.Laura Thomas: Yeah. I think, I mean, the piece around kids, we talked about it before, you know, around 10, 11, preparing to go through puberty, that is one point in time where children are most vulnerable to the development of eating disorders, body image disturbance, low body esteem, which can become a risk factor for things like self harm, anxiety, depression.I mean, it's kind of a chicken and the egg sort of situation in terms of the research, but we know that those things track, you know, where we see dieting and disordered behaviors, there is a strong correlation with poor mental health outcomes.  And then there's the fact that those kids, like, literally need to be growing and gaining weight and, and then the thing that their bodies are supposed to do is the exact thing that we're trying to stop them from doing. That can cause all kinds of problems in terms of their development.I've written a little bit about the risk factors of, or the risks associated with putting children on a diet. So I will link back to that post and, for people who, who maybe are newer around here and, and want to unpack that  a little bit more, but maybe you could say more about the systemic piece, the broader piece that you're focused on at Body Happy. Molly Forbes: Yeah. So we're working really hard to help children know that all bodies are good bodies and all bodies are worthy bodies. And we're working really hard to kind of create cultures in schools that celebrate all bodies and celebrate body diversity and allow children to see themselves as more than their bodies.And that actually, we should treat everyone with respect and dignity, like regardless of what anyone looks like, and we know that, like, weight based teasing and bullying is the most common form of bullying in the playground, like the World Health Organisation have found that.And on the one hand, if we're saying to children, oh, don't, don't do that. Like that's not very kind to, like, tease and, and bully someone for the way they look. But then on the other hand, we're weighing them in school and we're sending letters home saying your body is wrong. That's essentially what we're saying, your body is wrong. So it basically gives the green light for that kind of behaviour. And it also…at any opportunity for body neutrality in a setting where we are literally creating body hierarchies and upholding these hierarchies by weighing children in school is one way, you know. Also the way that we approach, you know, quote unquote healthy eating education, the way that we talk about food and bodies, the way that we deal with appearance based bullying.But weighing in children in schools is like one way that we uphold these body hierarchies. So actually, it literally undermines everything that we're trying to achieve at Body Happy Org. We're trying to create these spaces that celebrate body diversity, celebrate differences, have a real, much more of a focus on, like, body neutrality and health behaviours as separate to… you know, as one part of health, but also separated from weight. So we're trying to teach kids that you can't tell how healthy someone is by looking at them. And even if you could, it shouldn't change the way that you treat that person. Yet we're also weighing them in school and sending a letter home saying you're unhealthy, right, now what's the impact of that? You're going to go and be put on a diet or you're going to be, you know, your parents going to… feel that's a risk. You know, the letter doesn't necessarily say. put your child on a diet…Laura Thomas: Well, it kind of does because it sends people to the Change for Life website or whatever it's called now. I forget, but it basically, it says, if you've received one of those letters, go here, you go there and it says, encourage your child to eat less and move more. And there are so many, I mean, that's problematic in and of itself, but there are so many assumptions baked into that, right? Encourage your child to eat more fruit and vegetables. Well, you don't know how many fruit and vegetables my child is eating. You don't know how active they are. You don't know, you know, what other health concerns they have. You don't know what other, you know, the socio political cultural circumstances that that child's body is, you know, contained within, that all have a bearing on their, their, their body weight.So to just sort of put it down to the, the old calories in calories out equation is…I mean, this is slightly tangent, but it's just, I guess, to me, it's just ratifying anti-fat bias and saying, yeah…it's like you said before, it's creating this disconnect between wanting to create a place of safety for our children, which, you know, schools should be a place of safety, but there's this really violent practice that we're continuing to subject our children to on this other side.And it's just like, yeah, the mixed messages and the head fuck for that child is overwhelming.Molly Forbes: And it's, it's really insidious. So what was happening prior to 2012 is that kids were basically being weighed and the parents weren't receiving…they didn't get any feedback –they call it feedback – and they didn't get a letter home. And so now after 2012, they started sending this letter home.And the parents will receive or the caregiver will receive a letter saying that if your child is in the, one of the basically not the healthy weight category, the parent will be told that and then they'll, as you say, either they'll be directed to like another website, more information. In some areas, they will also be then… Laura Thomas: Referred. Yeah.Molly Forbes: Ttheir details will be passed on to the weight management team or the healthy weight team or whatever they call it, weight management services.And the parent might be contacted and said, you know, do you want to sign your, your kid up? And, you know, I, I sort of jokingly said, oH they're not explicitly saying, put your kid on a diet, but actually what is happening in some areas is that the child is being referred to a weight management service, such as Slimming World.You know, if that's not a diet, what is? So actually, yeah, you're right. That is what's happening. And so that's kind of harmful on an individual level, but we know that, like, kids display anti-fat bias right from like the age of three.Yeah. So, actually, kids know that there is a good and a bad weight that they don't want to be. They know right from early that they're getting these messages. They believe that, you know, that fat is bad and thin is good. And they get these messages from so many different places. And these messages are upheld often by their teachers and perhaps their parents and the family members, people around, by society at large.And so if they're then going into that room to be weighed, you know, if a child, particularly a child who has a fat body has already probably received lots of negative messages about their body, they know that like, as they step on the scales, they're potentially going to, you know, quote unquote, fail the exam.And what's the outcome of that going to be? And the thin kids know as well. It just upholds these ideas that there are good bodies and bad bodies and it literally gives the green light to bullying in the setting and it also gives the green light to kind of these unsaid judgments and bias and microaggressions to just continually happen in the setting.And it's really harmful for all children. It's not just harmful for children who are going to get a letter home. That kind ofatmosphere, it doesn't support any child to have a positive relationship, either with their own body or with the bodies around them. It's completely counterproductive.And that's important. It's important because we know that kids who have,  you know, a better relationship with their body are generally happier on the long term, healthier. However, you want to kind of categorise that like really loaded word of health. You know, more likely to have better self esteem, less likely to be at risk and vulnerable of, like, eating issues, other mental health concerns, such as anxiety, depression.But also – like those are all individual things – but on a whole, like for me, it's just how we raise children to treat other kids, you know, and this programme is counterproductive to that. And the other piece, and this is the thing that I don't often talk about, but there is also a toll on the adults as well. There's a toll on the parents who are receiving the letter.Laura Thomas: Absolutely.Molly Forbes: There's a toll on the teachers. So many teachers, we've got teachers in our team and they hate it.They hate it on school weighing days, like literally keeps them up at night. They get so upset knowing that their children are being lined up going in and it can be so triggering because they might have their own experiences and bad memories of these kind of things happening when they were at school.And actually many of the people who have to carry out this programme don't like it, you know, it's one part of their job, but I hear from many people who have to do this that don't enjoy it. They don't like it. They know of the…Laura Thomas: Harms. Yeah.Molly Forbes: It's just not fair on anyone.Laura Thomas: So, let's talk about maybe some logistics here in terms of how the programme is conducted, because parents have a choice. Teachers, to some extent, have a choice and schools have a choice, and I don't think that we talk about that part enough. I think you've done a really lovely job of laying out the harms here but I think it's really important to, to help parents figure out how to navigate this. So what, what happens in schools, right? Will parents get a letter? Will they know that this is happening and what can they do with that information? And I know that this is also nuanced because it, it varies by local authority to local authority and school to school. So yeah, as best as you can, can you kind of help us understand what to expect?Molly Forbes: Yeah. So what should happen and the advice for how local authorities and nursing teams need to be delivering this program is that what should happen is that they contact the school and they say, hey, can we come in and, and measure the kids? And the school…the school at that point does have a choice, the school are allowed to say no. And many schools don't know this, but they are allowed to and they do have a choice.Laura Thomas: And who's that up to? Is that up to the head teacher?Molly Forbes: Yeah. So, the head teacher, but often there'll be like a governing body as well. And also schools are often nowadays they're part of like a federation or trust so there'll be other schools. So, it might be that there's a CEO of that federation and so it goes up, you know, higher and higher to who is able to make that decision.It is a big deal. It's scary for schools to say no because the local authorities get so much funding for delivering this programme that they put a huge amount of pressure on schools to kind of let them in. So often schools feel like it's a mandatory thing and they can't say no, but what if there are any teachers listening to this is actually, you can say no.Laura Thomas: It's within your power?Molly Forbes: Yeah. When I was creating this pack that…she now volunteers for Anybody UK, but someone on that team who wasn't on the team when we were creating this, she is a school governor and she's been helping her school in London opt out of it. And there's been a whole process. They've had to have meetings with parents. They've had to do, like conduct surveys. They've had to go through like various processes with the governors. But, I believe that they are on the way to opting out of it. So what happens then is that say, for example, the school let them in, which nine times out of 10, they will, then two weeks prior to the team coming in to take the measurements and collect the data they should and, and will send home a letter.But it's coming not from the school. It's really important to know it's not the school. It's not your kids' teachers who are taking these measurements. It's not them who are, although they're the ones who are communicating with you, if there are any like fuck ups and a child is opted out and then still gets weighed, which can sometimes happen. Like ultimately it's not the teachers who are taking this data.Y eah, so the school will send a letter home, or the local authority will send a letter home via the school saying this is happening on this date, and if you want to opt out, then you can either do this. So sometimes there'll be a form,  if they want to make it super easy, there'll be a form. And so you can like fill in the form and just say, I don't give consent. What's increasingly happening is that they're making it harder and harder, making you jump through like multiple hoops.So it might be that you have to ring a phone number, and it might be that when you ring that number, no one answers. Or that you leave a voicemail message and that, you know, and you're having to keep doing that. And I know that as a parent who works full time, that's a nightmare to have to do.Laura Thomas: It's such a pain. Yeah.Molly Forbes: It's such a pain and it's just life admin that no one has time for. I feel like that's not accidental, you know. I may, maybe I'm being cynical, but it feels to me like that's not an accidental choice to make it harder for parents to opt out. And then what should happen is, on the day that the measurements are taking place, the kids who are going to be measured are, like, lined up, and they're sent on through, and they, they have the measurements, and the kids who aren't are basically, like, kept separate, and they don't get sent through, and, and they won't be measured.Laura Thomas: So they can like stay in the classroom or whatever.Molly Forbes: Yeah, exactly. And,  what should also happen is that kids… when the kids are getting measured, they don't see the measurement on the scale so that they, they don't see what the measurements are and they are measured on their own. So it's not happening like in a public, in front of the whole class. Laura Thomas: That's true. But I just want to say that there's a lot of research that suggests that either school nurses or healthcare assistants will report back what the child's weight is depending on, you know, or tell them the category that they fall in. And so it's not as sort of taped off as it sounds like it might be and also kids can look! They can just look, right. Like there's nothing to prevent them from just checking the number. I mean, maybe not the four and five year olds are going to have a harder time with it, but certainly by year six, they can look. And I think the other sort of fallacy that I hear is that, you know, it's all contained within that moment that they get measured, but there's also reports that children will go out and compare their weights in the playground. And I think that's where that bullying, teasing risk kind of comes in, that you talked about before.Molly Forbes: That's what should happen. And that's what in like the best practice kind of how to run the programme they say should happen. But I know anecdotally that that doesn't always happen. So I know anecdotally that there are some children that will be opted out and the parents will opted them out, but the child still gets weighed.Because, you know, accidents are happening. Everyone's overworked. The teachers are stressed and overworked. The nurses are stressed and overworked. There's a lot of children coming through that they have to get all this data. I also know anecdotally, I've heard from parents where the children have overheard their weight being discussed in front of them in their earshot.And I've heard from parents where the children have, as you say, then discussed their weights with, with their peers. So although that's kind of the best practice way of happening and, and that's what they say should happen, it isn't always, no, it's run by humans and there's always room for human error to happen.Laura Thomas: Sure.Molly Forbes: And then afterwards, once they've kind of processed that data, that's when they will send a letter home. Now, it's also important to know that the letter home part of the programme is not mandatory. So the programme is a mandatory programme that the local authorities have to deliver, but that's the local authorities that have to deliver it. The schools don't. They are not mandated to allow the programme to happen in their school. So although the local authority, which effectively runs the schools, is mandated to do that, the schools do have some autonomy. And also the local authorities are not mandated to then provide the feedback. The feedback is an optional added extra part of the programme. And again, I think many, many places don't realise that. And there have been some pilot studies and some trials in some areas where they've looked at what happens if we don't send that feedback letter. And that's really promising, but also there have been some other trials looking at what happens if we ramp up and we just go all in and we double down.And along with that feedback letter, we also include a diagram, which shows children with a different range of bodies, like on a scale from thin to fat. And we like put a big red circle around the body that that child's weight falls into and what then, what will happen if we do that, will the parents be even more likely to quote unquote, take it seriously and do something about their child's weight.So there are two things happening and, depending on, you know, who's running it, kind of depends on what happens. Within that whole framework, there are things that the schools can do to, like, minimise some of the potential harms. First of all, just letting parents know that they can opt out, I think is really important. And second of all, just letting parents know about the information so they can make an informed decision. Because like, if you get like ten forms come home about, you know, there's a school trip happening next week. Oh, by the way, this is our lunchbox policy. Oh, by the way, your kid's being measured and here's the homework that we're doing. Like, it's just going to easily get lost. Whereas if the schools make it really clear to the parents like, okay, this is happening. And this is the letter that we have to send to you. And in this letter, it will say there are no…that studies show there are no adverse impacts of, like, this, this programme. If they could also just link to the Body Happy Org and Anybody UK information pack that would at least give parents enough information to make, you know, know the full story.Laura Thomas: Yeah, and I think just on that on that piece of like all these letters going home and things getting confused and I think like another thing that I've heard happening is just kids opening the letter themselves because again, if you're like 10, 11, you're like, oh, what's this? I want to have a look.And they're reading You know, your child is quote overweight or quote obese and what like the impact that that that can have, it's not even, you know, filtered through the lens of a parent who might be able to be like, well, fuck this, this is rubbish and just, you know, get rid of it, which I know a lot of parents do because they're..they feel like, like you said before, like it's an indictment of their parenting.But yeah, like what happens when that falls into the hands of, you know, a preteen who is really vulnerable to it. So I just, I wanted to make that that point there as well. Like, so just to kind of wrap up, can you tell us a bit more about the… is there anything else you want to say about the process of opting out or, you know, how to, like, any tips for parents to make sure that if you have opted out that you've really opted out?Molly Forbes: Yeah. So I think one thing that I definitely hear the most and one of the biggest pieces of resistance of opting out is that parents are really worried that their child is going to feel left out. Particularly the little ones, like they get a sticker and they get a sticker and like, who doesn't love a sticker?And so like their mates are all coming back into the classroom saying like, I'm, I'm good. I've got a sticker and they're on their own and they just feel left out. And that's a totally  valid and, and natural thing to worry about as a parent. Like what parent wants their kid to be left out and in the class not getting a sticker.Laura Thomas: So side note, at preschool, they give a stamp on the hand for good behaviour. Good behaviour apparently includes eating all your lunch. So my kid...never gets a stamp. So I've just bought a stamp and I've been stamping him and reminding him that you, that he's the boss of his body and it's up to him how much he eats and yes, trying to get away from that behaviourism.But anyway, that's a little detour. We'll come back to...Molly Forbes: I would love you to give him the stamp so that he can go into the playground and just be like….Laura Thomas: Yeah, stamping everyone,Molly Forbes: Yeah, everyone should get a stamp.Laura Thomas: But challenging the school's behavioural policies is for another, another time. But, yeah, so there is that concern that parents have that their parents, that their kids might feel, like left out or sort of singled out for something. So how, what would you say to that?Molly Forbes: Yeah. And the other part of that point as well is that it's really natural if you are the parent of a fat child and you know that you're more likely to get a letter home, it's probably really natural that you would want to opt your kid out but then it's also a very natural concern to be like, do I want to highlight, make my kid even more of a target and have them the only child in the class that is not opted out?Like, will that make that? So there's a sense of safety there. And I think it's really important to understand like it's very difficult.Laura Thomas: That's such an important point. Yeah, I'm glad that you raised that.Molly Forbes: But, but what I think is also really important to note that actually, the more people who are aware that you can opt out and the more people who opt out, then the less chance we have of these kids being in these situations where they're the only one.And actually, a couple of weeks ago I heard from a parent who's,  she shared the NCMP information pack from Body Happy Org and Anybody UK in her class WhatsApp group. Her daughter's in year six and her daughter came home a couple of weeks ago, and they'd been in and they'd had all the weights, the NCMP team had been in and over half the class had opted out.Laura Thomas: Wow, that's…I thought you were going to say like five kids! That's incredible.Molly Forbes: No, over half the class opted out. So. The more people who are opting out, the more other people who are going to opt out. And actually so many people don't know about this. So even if it's just a case of like forwarding this podcast episodet or mates at school and toyour parent mates and being like, Oh, Hey, did you know, do you know about this? And like having a conversation with people about it, the more chances you have of like other people also opting their children out.Laura Thomas: And I think if you're in any parenting groups, if you're in any school groups, even if your child, you know, even if your child isn't in reception or year six, can you spread the word to parents whose kids are going to be impacted in that year. So even if it feels like it doesn't directly impact you…like last year, I remember sending your pack and the, some articles that I had written as well to like health WhatsApp groups and things that I'm involved in just to kind of help spread that word because I think the more of us that are talking about these issues, the more wider reaching impact that we will have.Molly Forbes: Yeah, absolutely. A hundred percent. And I think also if your child's older, if they're in that year six kind of age group, it's also a really good opportunity to make them part of the conversation. And that's what I did with my eldest daughter. And I said like, this thing is happening and this is why I want to opt you out of it. And what do you think about it? And I think, like, at that age, they are able if, especially if you've already kind of like done the groundwork for the way that you talk about bodies at home. And hey, you know how your school still does it the old way where they stamped kids who've had like a clean plate, you know, and it's like these are the old way. And we don't do that at home. This is happening. And I don't, I don't feel comfortable about you being weighed. And I want you to like, how are you feeling? How would you feel about that? And I think like making kids be kind of part of that conversation at that age can actually be a positive way to then raise little mini advocates who, like, who are activists who literally the future generation who are going to go out and like challenge some of this stuff.Laura Thomas: And how might you approach that conversation with a younger child, do you think? Because I think you can talk about this with a four and, I mean, I know you can talk about this with a four and five year old. So, but, but how, I mean, what might that sound like? Do you think?Molly Forbes: So I think  it would sound like, like focusing on the practical stuff first. So the fact that some of your class today, some of your class might be weighed, and that means standing on a scale, you know, if you don't have scales in your house, like we don't,  it would be kind of a, a bit of a age appropriate explanation about what a scale is and, and why, you know, in our house, you know how we know that all bodies are good bodies, maybe using a picture book, you know, like that lovely Tyler Feder Bodies Are Cool book to like have that kind of conversation.  Or, you know,  the book Big, which is like the latest one that I really love as well. To kind of talk about how, how might it make children who…even if your child has a thin or straight sized body, like getting them at age four and five to think about, you know, actually how might other children feel, you know, being weighed, you know. In the same way that we have those conversations about like, how my daddy pig feel when Peppa pig is mean about his body and always makes his body the punchline of the joke, you can start to have those conversations with little kids and encourage them to kind of grow their empathy skills and think about how other people might be impacted by something.And then I think like, if you have opted them out, just kind of making them aware that this thing might be happening today and some of your class might be going out the classroom and they might come back and they might have stickers. So maybe like being prepared and sending your kid to school with a sticker.Laura Thomas: But not just any sticker, Molly!Molly Forbes: Oh yeah, the Body Happy stickers. We've got some new Body Happy stickers!Laura Thomas: Teed you right up for that.Molly Forbes: I nearly missed that one. Yeah, like just making sure that they've got something to make them feel, you know, special. And then like having a conversation with the teacher and saying. Hey, did you know that there's this resource? I know it's probably too late for you to send it around the school, this information pack, because we've already received the letter, but, it is still worth reading because there is advice in there about how you as a school can manage it and how you as a teacher can manage it. And like maybe bookmark this weighing day with like some positive activities and making sure that like all the kids have a sticker. Like I'm very big on the stickers. I feel really sad for the kids that don't get it.Laura Thomas: Can, can you do bulk orders of the stickers for teachers to have in their classroom?Molly Forbes: yeah,Laura Thomas: Do a little teacher discount.Molly Forbes: Oh yeah, we need to get funding so we can send all the schools a sticker pack. But yeah, I feel like that there are so many things that that can be done, so that even if this programme is happening, that we're kind of mitigating at least some of the potential harms of it.Ultimately, I don't want the programme to exist, but I'm not a lobbyist.  and we have to be really aware at Body Happy Org that, actually, you know, we're in a difficult situation because if we, if we were to start lobbying on this and actually actively kind of campaigning against this programme, that could put us at risk of like not being invited into schools to do our really important workshops at this because it's like recent government changes in terms of advice for who schools can invite in to like run sessions with their kids.So what I want to do is…I just want parents and schools to be aware of all of the various different elements and nuances so that they can make an informed decision. And even if they do decide to allow it to go ahead to at least, at the very least do some of these things around it to mitigate some of its potential harms.Laura Thomas: Oh, Molly, I so appreciate you coming and kind of unpacking all of that. Cause yeah, there's, there's some nuance to this conversation, right? I was just thinking to myself, well, if enough people opt out. Then maybe schools will get the message that actually, we don't want this programme and the whole schools will start to opt out.But then there's also a real risk that the government will, you know, slide in some other legislation that makes it mandatory to participate in these programmes. So, you know, I think, yeah, we're sort of bouncing on a knife edge with this stuff and, and, I guess what we're saying is we have to be conscious of potential unintended consequences, both of participating in the programme, but also from opting our kids out as well.Molly Forbes: Yeah.Laura Thomas: Oh, thank you, Molly, for the just relentless work that you and Body Happy Org are doing,  around this issue.So real quick at the end of every episode, my guest and I share something that they have been snacking on. So it could be anything, a show, a podcast, a literal snack, whatever. So what have you been snacking on lately?Molly Forbes: So I'm going to say a holiday. So this is, this is coming out in September and I will have just come back from France and spending five weeks in France. My favorite thing about holiday is…one of my favorite things is like the supermarkets and I love….Laura Thomas: Like foreign supermarkets are so much fun.Molly Forbes: Especially like French supermarkets are just the best like, oh my gosh, like the cheese. I'm such a cheese fan and I love like just walking down the cheese aisle and just seeing like, oh my gosh…..Laura Thomas: Supermarket sweeping the whole like aisleMolly Forbes: And my favorite thing is like on a holiday, what I really love is the fact that you don't have to meal plan, like, we don't…I absolutely love being able to say, oh, hey guys, what should we have for dinner tonight. I don't have to like do a whole shop and think like, you know, days ahead of, like, what the meal plan is just, we're going to eat whatever we fancy. In this…what should we have for lunch right now?Right. It's not like a packed lunch that's been packed the night before. That kind of being able to be spontaneous with food and like really brings for me as a mum who's busy working and like the mental load and same like with my partner, my husband, like both of us, like get so bored of doing the meal planning and we just like, it brings the joy back into food.Laura Thomas: Yeah.Molly Forbes: Over the, over the summer. So I'm going to say like French supermarkets and also a literal snack. I love goat's cheese and I love, you know, like that time in the day when you're on holiday, when you've just like spent the day out, maybe you've been swimming, maybe you've been on a bike ride, you've been out in the sun and you come home and, or wherever we're camping, so you go and have a shower.And you're all like lovely and clean and fresh and then you sit down and it's like just that period before dinner when you're sitting down and I love like a snack at that point whether that is…well my favourite is goat's cheese but like the hard goat's cheese that you chop up into like bits with like those little mini cornichon pickles, like a little bit of goat's cheese with like a little bit of one of those pickles it's just like mmm I love that.Laura Thomas: Okay, you're making me hungry and I also want to come on a holiday with you, so pack me in your suitcase.Alright, so my snack is a book. It's a complete gear shift from what we've just been talking about. It's a book called Radical Intimacy. It's by Sophie K. Rosa. And I think... The title Radical Intimacy is a little bit misleading because it's not really…like it does talk about romantic relationships, but,  the main sort of thesis is talking about how capitalism infiltrates all different aspects of our life, everything from, like, our interpersonal relationships, what counts as a relationship, who counts as a relationship, how we kind of hierarchicalise our relationships for want of a better word. Like our, our families, our family life, and you know, everything like just…it's really an interesting exploration of some of these, the ways that,  capitalism infiltrates our lives, but also kind of about reimagining something different, something more expansive and, yeah, I'm really here for it.So I will link to that, and I'm also going to link to your NCMP pack, which really, I'm just asking everyone listening to forward it on your WhatsApp groups through email, like share it if you're on a school PTA or like a,  what's it called? Like the governance?Molly Forbes: If you're a governor.Laura Thomas: Yeah. Please, a teacher, like, please take it really seriously.I think what I heard Molly says there's a lot of red tape to opt out, whether it's opting out your child or opting out a whole school, but, you know, you could be laying the groundwork for that for, you know, maybe beyond when your child is even at that school, but I think that's a really worthwhile endeavour.Molly, can you tell us all really quickly where we can find out more about you and your work?Molly Forbes: So the Body Happy Org website is www.bodyhappyorg.com. And we are also Body Happy Org on Instagram. And I am MollyJForbes. Molly with a Y, on Instagram and I'm also really enjoying Threads. That's a whole other conversation. I don't really hang out on Twitter so much. I'm on Twitter, but I don't really hang out there as much, but yeah, probably the website and it's got all of our emails and all of that stuff there as well.Laura Thomas: Well, I'll link to everything in the show notes so people can find you. Thank you so much, Molly.Molly Forbes: Thank you.OUTROLaura Thomas: Thanks so much for listening to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast. You can support the show by subscribing in your podcast player and leaving a rating and review. And if you want to support the show further and get full access to the Can I Have Another Snack? universe, you can become a paid subscriber.It's just £5 a month or £50 for the year. As well as getting tons of cool perks you help make this work sustainable and we couldn't do it without the support of paying subscribers. Head to laurathomas.substack.com to learn more and sign up today.  Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas. Our sound engineer is Lucy Dearlove. Fiona Bray formats and schedules all of our posts and makes sure that they're out on time every week. Our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser, and the music is by Jason Barkhouse. Thanks so much for listening.ICYMI this week: Rapid Response: Actually, Maybe Don't Say That to Your Kid* Reclaiming our Appetites* Rapid Response: Why I don't like ‘this food does a little/this food does a lot'* Dear Laura: I'm freaking out about what my kids eat - but is it really about them? This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe

This week on the CIHAS pod, we're switching things up. I'm joined by Jeanette Thompson Wesson (AKA The Mindset Nutritionist), a fat positive nutritionist who supports people to heal their relationship with food and their body. Jeanette and I will be answering some listener questions, and you lot really came through and asked some great questions, so let's get into it! Can I Have Another Snack? is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.Find out more about Jeanette's work here.Follow her work on Instagram here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Subscribe to my newsletter here. And I think that's where fat liberation really can come in because, you know, everyone's trying to carve out their own space for them. Whereas actually body liberation and, and fat liberation is all about widening that lens to other people. We are not just trying to carve out the space for ourselves individually.We're trying to carve out spaces and take up space in a way that honors other people's space that they're taking up as well and uplifting the bodies that are the most marginalized and going, okay, these are the people who need this space and we want them to have this space. They deserve unconditionally to have this space as well.INTROLaura: Hey, and welcome back to Can I Have Another Snack podcast where I'm asking my guests who or what they're nourishing right now and who or what is nourishing them. I'm Laura Thomas, an Anti Diet registered nutritionist, an author of the Can I Have Another snack newsletter. Just a very quick reminder before we get to today's episode that for the month of March I'm running a sale on Can I Have Another Snack paid subscribers to celebrate our half birthday.If you sign up now, you get 20% off, either a monthly or annual subscription. This is a really good deal and I won't be offering it again this year. So head to laurathomas.substack.com to sign up. You get to join in our weekly community discussion threads plus bonus podcast episodes, twice monthly essays, including my Dear Laura column, and more importantly, you're helping making this work possible. And if for any reason you can't afford a subscription right now, you can email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk and put the word “snax” in the header and we'll hook you up with a comp subscription. No questions asked. So today I am joined by the wonderful Jeanette Thompson Wesson, and we are gonna be answering listener questions that you've sent in, and there are some really great questions, but if you don't already know Jeanette, she is a fat positive nutritionist who supports people to heal their relationship with food and their body.And if you want to know more about Jeanette, then I really recommend listening to the episode of Don't Salt My Game that we did together last summer, I'll link to it in the show notes. So go check that out. And how this is gonna work is that we're gonna take it in turns to ask questions and then kind of bounce off of each other to come up with answers.All right, Jeanette, are you ready?Jeanette: I am ready. Should we get into it?Laura: Let's do it. MAIN EPISODELaura: So you're gonna start off with the first question and yeah, let's see where it goes.Jeanette: So here is your first question from Ger. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the connection between diet mentality and gut problems with constipation.Laura: Okay, so Janette and I just had a little back and forth about what exactly this question was getting at, because I think what they're asking is if there is a physiological response in terms of our digestion based on the way we think about food and our relationship with food.Jeanette: Yeah.Laura: And so I think that's my understanding of the question, but just in case, and maybe wanna take a step back and think about what happens.To our gastrointestinal tract when we go on a diet, right? So whether it is, you know, your run of the mill, everyday diet, like a Slimming World or Weight Watchers or whatever, or whether it's, you know, more severe disordered eating or an eating disorder, basically the same thing happens in all of those cases.It's just the degree to which it happens gets more intense, gets worse, the more severe the problems around eating are. So what we could expect to happen is because the total amount of energy available to the body is not enough to support all its basic functioning. A lot of those basic processes like menstruation, like digestion, all of these things that are considered inverted commas non-essential, they slow down so that there's enough energy to divert towards essential functions like primarily your brain. Right? So what happens in our digestive tract is that we have, Jeanette's gonna love how nerdy I'm gonna get, we have what's called delayed gastric emptying. So the contents of our stomach literally emptying, slows down. It's sometimes called, when it gets really severe, it's called gastroparesis, where it's almost like this partial paralysis of the stomach so that contents don't, from the stomach, don't get properly turned around in the stomach.And then when the, and then it's the release into our small, our small intestine is a lot slower. So you get, you have this feeling of fullness for a lot longer after eating a meal. And you might also fill up relatively quickly or feel, feel full quite quickly after eating. What happens in our guts, so in our small, in our small intestine primarily is we have slowed peristalsis.So peristalsis is the action of, um, the muscles along our gastrointestinal tract contracting and pushing food through our guts, right? And basically because there's less, there's less energy available to the body, that process slows down.That's why you get constipated or you might get mixed i b s type symptoms where you alternate between constipation and diarrhea. So that is effectively what is going on in your gastrointestinal tract when you restrict. And it's also why we say a lot in eating disorder recovery and, and when we're working with people with disorder eating, is that the best way to heal your gut is not through going on some sort of low FODMAP diet or some leaky gut protocol or whatever other bullshit is out there, is it's actually having regular, consistent, adequate nutrition and nourishing your body. That's what heals any gut related issues. Now, I'm not saying that there aren't in some cases where people maybe have intolerances or other, you know, have to be mindful of, of what they're eating for other medical reasons, but that broadly speaking, that unless we have enough energy on board and we're eating regularly, then it just sends our guts kind of haywire.Right. Would you have anything to add to that, Jeanette?Jeanette: I mean, have a lot of clients who have experienced that and also I have a lot of personal experience with that. When I did Slimming World, I was, I mean, too much information, I'm gonna say anyway, I was really badly, like really badly constipated, and I knew exactly what was going on in my body. Even as a nutritionist, I was like, I know what's happening.I know exactly why I am constipated right now, and still chose to obviously do what I was doing because of my own internalised fatphobia, because I was working from a place where I thought I had to be thinner.Laura: Mm-hmm.Jeanette: And what it was at the time. And it's, it's really quite, it's really quite horrible to be in that place where you are like, oh my goodness, my body should be doing this. And it doesn't feel comfortable. And but when you really think about it and you tear everything, like you strip everything back, how amazing is our body to basically put ourselves in these like survival modes really?Laura: Mm-hmm.Jeanette: Because actually if we didn't have that delay within our body, um, how would we actually be feeling within ourselves without, with our hunger hormones and stuff, if we didn't have that delay, we'd actually be feeling probably quite ill, reallyLaura: Mm-hmm.Jeanette: Even worse, even more miserable than what we've been, we would, would be feeling.And I think that's the thing that kind of blows my mind with all of these biological processes that go, goes on, is that we forget that when we're actually dieting, we are putting our body in that place of restriction, which our body doesn't actually realize that that's intentional. I mean, it's clever, but it doesn't realize that we are actually choosing to do that.It just goes, oh my goodness, like, what is happening? We are not getting, you know, what, we, we should be getting into our body and these things happen. So it just blows my mind. It's, it's, I always love it. I'm a science nerd myself. So , it's enjoyable.Laura: There's something else that I wanna talk about here, which is what I wonder if the question was kind of getting at, so I've, I feel like I've maybe answered a different question, but I just wanted to give that context because I'm sure a lot of people will wonder like, okay, well what is actually happening inside my body as I'm restricting?Right. Whether it's, like you say through, you know, like legitimate food scarcity in, you know, if someone is food insecure, or you know, from a evolutionary perspective, if there just wasn't enough food around, right? That's why this, this process is there in, in the first place, right? Conservation of the species.But then there's the other side of things, which is this voluntary, and we could argue if it's voluntary or not under diet culture, but you know, like putting ourselves on a diet. What is that doing, both from a physiological perspective, but what is the diet mentality? So just the kind of mindset of restricting ourselves.What does that do to our digestion? And I think this is, I don't know specifically of any literature that connects both of those dots quite as clearly, but I do know that there is something called the nocebo effect. So the effect is essentially the inverse of the placebo effect. So if I tell you this pill has like magic qualities and it's gonna make you feel amazing and you take the pill, you're gonna start feeling amazing.That's the placebo effect. But equally, if I tell you that gluten in your food or like y you know, milk, protein, strawberries, and it could be literally anything if I tell you that that's bad for you, even though it doesn't cause a, you know, even though there's no physiological basis for, um, you to have a reaction to that food, the nocebo effect means that you do have a very real response to that food.Not because there's something, you know, kind of defective in your digestion, but because of the gut brain access and the connection between our brains and our guts. And so that can have major impacts on digestion. And there are studies that have shown that people were given, so there were two groups. They all had self-described lactose intolerance. Both groups were given sugar pills. One group were told that the pills had lactose in them. The other group were told that they didn't have lactose in them.And of course the group that were told that they had lactose in the pills had a physiological response. So they reported increased bouts of diarrhea and constipation. Right. Versus the group that were told that it was just sugar pills, even though they were all receiving sugar pills. But it shows you that there's a real strong physiological impact on our digestion just because the seed has been planted in our brains, which is, that blows my mind that that's even a Jeanette: It's crazy, isn't it? I see There are a lot with people who, um, go for like allergy testing. You know, the kind of ones where you can send like something off on the internet or I don't know, one of, one of those kind of pay 50 pounds and we'll give you a list of all these random things that we think that you are intolerant or allergic to, and you get this list back and they're like, oh my God, how many things are am I supposed to be intolerant to?And you know, people start restricting these things and having exactly the same reaction that you, you know, you said, you know, actually I feel so much better without these being in my body. And when I do have a strawberry, like one of the interesting things is like strawberry comes up quite a lot in my experience when I do eat a strawberry.Oh, I feel awful. I have like diarrhea and this happens and that happens. And, and I think that that gut brain axis is, is so incredibly powerful. And then one of the other things it kind of like takes me to when we are dieting as well, dieting is incredibly stressful. Like really, really stressful.And um, it also makes us feel very miserable. And then when you are coming up to weigh in day, the anxiety, the nervousness of of have I lost weight? Have I not lost weight? And actually having to stand on a scale, the gut-brain axis as well, like axis can actually have a big impact there as well. And cause that constipation and, you know, having diarrhea as well because of that really strong reaction you can have to just actually being on the diet and the men mentality that comes with being on the diet as well.And we, I think we forget about that mental link that we have.Laura: Mm-hmm. . And there are studies that show that that dieting increases your cortisol levels. Right. So your stress, stress hormone. So although there, so I guess what we're saying is, although there's no like, like single study I can point to, there are lots of potential mechanisms by which like, The thought of going on a diet and people know themselves, right?Like how many times have you thought, okay, like diet starts tomorrow, therefore I have to like, eat everything in the cupboards right now. What impact do we think that's gonna have on our digestion if we just like flood our bodies with, with more food than it can handle in one go? Like of course that's gonna have an impact on your, on your digestion.So, okay. Should we head on to the second question?Jeanette: Let'sLaura: This is a question for you Jeanette. This is um, from Monica, and I think it will become clear why I wanted to ask you this question. So, Monica says, I began intuitive eating a few months ago after years and years of heavy restricting and recovering from an eating disorder.I've had problems feeling the fullness and hunger cues, but I feel like I now manage it. Not perfectly, but Okay. And I try not to get too hung up on it. What I most struggle with is noticing my hunger and eating properly during my workday. I work as a teacher and many days I do not have a proper break, maybe like 10 to 15 minutes in total.I'm also often really stressed during the day, and I end up snacking the whole day. Every time I have five minutes by myself at my desk, and I end up never feeling hungry and never feeling satisfied either. Do you have some tips for intuitive eating at work? At home when I manage my time, it's a lot easier.So yeah. Monica, the question totally makes sense and I wanted to ask you that because up until pretty recently you were a teacher. So, what are your thoughts reading this question?Jeanette: My thoughts are like, my heart goes out to you because obviously we know at the moment and just in general that teaching is an incredibly stressful career to be in and you very, very rarely have time to slow down. So I completely understand where actually you say that you can kind of pick up your hunger and fullness cues not perfectly, and not being hung up on that, but then also eating throughout the day as well.I mean, it's no wonder really that you eat the way that you eat because of school. Because like with teaching, you have such little time to yourself and I want to say how important it is to think of intuitive eating as an like, not as like hard and fast rules, cuz we don't want to be approaching intuitive eating like a diet and actually coming from place of imperfection is completely fine, especially in the space that you're in at the.Coming from the teacher point of view as well, I would ask you, is there any way you can try and carve out some time and space during the day, during your break times and your lunch times where you can really take some time out? Is there somewhere you can go to eat that serves you? You know, have you got an office? Have you got a a, a place away for your desk? I think is one of the important things because when we are sitting at a desk and we're trying to do a thousand of one things at the same time as a teacher, we are checking the emails. We are trying to do a detention. We've got kids in front of us. We're trying to answer things. We're trying to create resources. We're trying to lesson plan all throughout our lunchtimes as well. And we don't have that chance to sit back and really have a listen to ourselves and being able to honor our hunger, which is why it makes complete sense why you are going to be eating and snacking throughout the day and that eating and that snacking throughout the day. Also wanna say how normal, that normal that is and how, you know, in the stress of that job job, if you are eating that as almost like an emotional regulator during the day, that is also completely valid to be doing as well. Because if you are in that moment and you are feeling that stress and it's a long time to be under stress from whenever you, you know, head to work like 7 30, 8 and end up leaving like 5, 5 30, then you know you've got loads of work to do in the evening.You know, you've got that anticipation as well. And we also don't have time, with time poor people as teachers, we don't have enough time to be able to be checking in on ourselves and we don't have enough time to be put in other coping mechanisms in place that would actually be really healthy things for us to have in place as teachers as well.Laura: Hmm. Jeanette: I would say at this at the moment, if there's nothing you can change, in the teaching role that you're in right now, to be able to carve out that time away from your desk to be able to honor that hunger when you can honor that hunger is to understand that coming from imperfection in intuitive vision is perfectly fine.And know that hopefully sometimes soon you will be able to listen to those internal cues in a much better way. Maybe when there's less pressure, maybe, um, if and when you want to make a change to the role that you have as well. And also to know that following intuitive eating during your time away from work is also just as important as well, and being able to take that time to honor yourself then,Laura: Yeah. I'm really glad that you said that. You know what you're doing is fine.like if that's what you need to do to get through the day and survive, it's okay that, you know, for you intuitive eating doesn't look like, you know, three perfect meals and however many snacks a day that it, it just means putting something in your mouth when you can Jeanette: Which is intuitive. Laura: Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes like if it feels better than just drop the label intuitive eating. Right. Because, you know, I think that we associate intuitive eating with looking a particular way Jeanette: Oh my Laura: And yeah. And it doesn't have to be perfect. So, you know, how can, how can you maybe bring a little bit more acceptance to, you know, if you, like you say, if you can't change anything, which like, I feel like if she could, she probably would've by nowJeanette: Exactly. It's hard. It's hard to do that.Laura: So. Yeah. You know, like, how can you maybe even bring a bit more self-compassion to that of like, well, fuck, this is hard and teaching is a really hard job and I have a lot of other pressures, so I don't need to put more pressure on feeding myself. I can just let it be what it is for now. And you know, if it, if it's, I, I appreciate that like, you are not really ever feeling hungry, but never feeling satisfied either. And if that feels like it's more of a problem, then, you know, taking a look at like, what, what are you bringing with you, right? What is it that you know is gonna help you feel more satisfied with what you're eating? So is it that you need to bring a bit more balance to what you've got there?Like have, I don't know, a bit more protein or a bit more carbohydrates or something to help power you through the next like, set of lessons or, or whatever is, do you have, like, I'm thinking, is there anything practical that you can think of, Jeanette, in terms of like helping this person feel a bit more satisfied with what they're eating?Jeanette: I would say what I see from teachers is bring more, have a, I always used to have a whole draw in my desk, literally dedicated to snacks. Because we are up so early in the morning, um, I, you know, I, I have children as well that had to sort out in the morning, so my priority wasn't actually making sure I had enough snacks in my bag when I got to school.So I actually just went out and I'd go out every couple of weeks and I'd buy so many long life snacks that I could just keep in there. And that was a mixture of a whole load of things. It was a mixture of cereal bars and little packets of raisins and nuts and also chocolate and caramel buttons and Oreos.And so just literally have that all available to me. And it was literally in my desk so I could just snack as I went to, like as I went along the day. And that was a really helpful thing for me to put in place for myself as well as bringing a really big bottle of water. Cuz otherwise I would just not drink anything. I just didn't have any time to.Laura: Oh yeah. I think getting, like having a snack drawer. And I was thinking as you were saying, like, I think you said pretzels maybe, and I was like, oh yeah. Like something crunchy. Something that's gonna give you, you know, thinking about like your sensory, like what's going to make help you feel satisfied from a sensory perspective?Is it that you need, you know, something like crisp and crunchy or do you prefer something chewy and soft or you know, what is it that will help you feel satisfied even, you know, with that five minute little snack session that you can have? So, yeah, hopefully Monica, that gives you some ideas to think about.All right. Shall we do this next question? What have we got?Jeanette: Okay. My sister-in-law is, to my mind, extremely extra about her kid, currently two and sugar, whereas we take much more relaxed approach with ours currently. For example, we rent out for coffee last weekend. Both sets of parents and kiddos, they had a massive slice of cheesecake, of which their small was allowed a thumb size piece. Well, that's really sad. While they ate the rest, whilst they ate the rest, we merely let our get stuck into our banana bread and chocolate chips. As they get older what's the best way to explain this disparity in attitudes to our kiddo? And how do we handle it with our nephew if he's, if you ask why his cousin can eat what he wants when he isn't allowed? Oh.Laura: This is so heartbreaking for this little nephew. And I also wanna say like, from this parent's perspective, I get it in a similar boat in terms of like how we feed our family compared to how other families around us feed their kids. And like right now, you know, when they're little, when they're toddlers, it like they don't notice, right?But as they get older, they start to think more and more, they'll start to ask more questions, and you're gonna have to figure out how, how to navigate this. But I also think this is a really interesting place that you could talk about differences and how differences are okay, and that we're all different.And sort of thinking about how we can tolerate differences between ourselves and other people. Because yeah, I feel like the more tolerant we are of other people's differences, like the better we will be just as a society, you know? I think it really depends a lot, you know, how you approach this depends a lot on how, on how much time you feel like you're gonna be spending with them.Like if you're gonna be hanging out most weekends, then it, I wonder if it might be, helpful to have a conversation with your sister-in-law, and say like, this is how we approach food, and I know that this isn't how you do things, but how can we navigate this together? Like can we come up with like an approach that works for both of us or that we can, that we both feel comfortable with?And, and I think that with, yeah, like I said, with your kid, I mean, first of all, your nephew is gonna wanna hang out at your house all the time. If you're like , you know, if you've got the goods, then you know, I think they're, they're gonna be kind of excited about that. I wanna hang out with you all the time, but, but yeah, like how, having those conversations with your kids about how everyone eats differently and that's okay.And, but also maybe as they get older and start asking more questions, like being really curious with them, of like, oh yeah, what do you, yeah. Did you notice that you know, little Charlie can only have two chocolate buttons. What did you think about that? Like, how did you feel? How would you feel if I said that you could only have two chocolate buttons and, and just like get yeah, get them to think about it with you a little bit. What do you think Jeanette?Jeanette: I think well exactly the same. You know, I don't navigate things exactly the same way. You have said, I mean, I've got a six year old who, um, has come back from school and um, you know, asked me like very similar questions, how come I can eat this? And I have this for snacks, but actually my friend so-and-so says that she's not allowed snacks or she's only allowed fruit for a snack and that kind of thing.And I very much like to promote having a really nice talk about it and obviously a nice like age appropriate one and going, okay, well it's because, and having a really lovely, like, chat about it for however her attention span last loss in that moment.Laura: And what does what, what kind of things does your six year old say about, about this? What do they come up with?Jeanette: Um, she looks confused a lot of the time, but not with what I say, as in, I'll kind of turn things on. So, a recent one was, um, one of the, one of her friends isn't allowed to have chocolate at the moment because her mom's not allowed to have chocolate in the house because she's not eating chocolate at the moment because she's on a diet. And she was like, but why, um, why isn't she allowed to have chocolate? And I was like, whoa. Laura: Why isn't she? Yeah.  Jeanette: You, you tell me. And she kind of sits there like scratching her head and she was like, but chocolate's not bad, is it? And I was like, no, because, because she's come back previously saying, is chocolate bad for me?Because that's what school had taught them. And I'd obviously have a conversation neutralizing that as, you know, as we do. And um, and she was like, so it's not bad. And I was like, well, no. How do you feel about chocolate? And she was like, well, it makes me feel, and I think she literally put her arms out. It makes me feel wonderful and put her arms out like this.You can't see when you're listening to it, but my arms areLaura: Jeanette's got her arms up above her head hearing. Jeanette: me feel wonderful. And then she said that she felt really sad for her friend that she couldn't have that same wonderful feeling.Laura: And that like, that's it. Is that if we can get our, like we don't need to tell our kids what to think.Jeanette: Yeah.Laura: Because we can get them to tap into that embodied experience of like, and there's research that shows this as well, that like, kids understand how foods feel in their body and that's how they make sense of their world, is that embodied experience.And so if you can help them, you know, instead of like reflexively being like, oh, well that's ridiculous, why would they think that or do that? Like just probing them and, and getting them to connect with, you know, what feels right and true for them. I feel like that's the best that we can do with thisJeanette: They're so good at it as well. And I think because we've dieted, because we've internalized all these messaging about diets and how food is good and bad as when you start children off really young with just allowing them Laura: mm-hmm. Jeanette: listen to themselves and how they feel. What I've been like, my, my six year old also came out.She really likes iceberg lettuce. Loves it. And I was like, so what? What about the lettuce? Do you really love? And she literally got up from her table and started kind of like dancing. And she was like, it makes me feel like I want to do this cuz it's really crunchy and I really like it cause it's crunchy.And she had like a bit of a jig and I love that because I was like, that sounds like it makes you feel really happy and really joyous. And she was like, yeah, it does. And to be able to have that communication with her body, to be able to know that that's how that food makes her feel. And obviously she has food that doesn't make her feel good.And sometimes she'll say to me, oh, what was it the other day that made her feel sad? I think it was mashed potato or something. She was, I did some lazy mash which had like, I leave the skins of the potatoLaura: Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.Jeanette: And she really didn't enjoy the sensory quality of having the potato skins in with the mash.Laura: Would be mad at you for that too.Jeanette: Sorry. It was just really lazy and she said it how sad it made her feel and she really did look really sad about this mashed potato. And obviously she didn't have to eat it becauseLaura: Yeah. You don't, you don't force Jeanette: Her. Yeah.Laura: I was thinking about this last night actually. So we had dinner last night and I, Avery had asked for some chocolate, um, with dinner. And so I put. We have like lots of Easter eggs in at the moment because we're just normalizing Easter over here.Easter chocolate. Um, so I put one out on his tray and he had like some fruit and I think he had like some frozen mango and like blueberries and he had like, like the main that we were having and he ate all of his main and he didn't touch his fruit and he didn't touch his chocolate. And at first my mind went to like, oh, that's interesting.He didn't eat his chocolate. It's like, you know his, he's listening to himself, right? Something in him made him listen to himself and think, oh, you know, he didn't want his chocolate. But something also made him listen to himself and say, I don't want my fruit. And I think we often, it made me think about how are more willing to trust our kids when they don't eat the, the so-called bad food according to diet culture. But if they don't want the, you know, the more healthy inverted commas, food, like fruit or their veggies, we are so much quicker to dismiss their experiences. And, and I just thought about that double standard is in absolutely no way related to this question, but I just like, yeah. I don't know. Mm-hmm.Jeanette: I've experienced exactly the same and yeah. It is so much easier, isn't it, to kind of, yeah. no, I'm really like that, pointing that out. Definitely. Yeah.Laura: All right. where are we up to with these questions? Okay. I have a question for you, Jeanette, from Louisa. And just a little content warning here. I'm gonna use the wording that, um, Louisa has put, and it involves the O word, so just skip past this bit if you don't wanna hear that. But Louisa says, I'm overweight, and then she says, I'm not sure best how best to describe myself. My dad was overweight before he died at 65 of heart disease. Are there things I can read slash learn about generational approaches to weight and emotional eating slash being happy in your body, which my dad wasn't. Thanks. So I feel like there's a lot to unpack in this question. Jeanette, where do we start?Jeanette: I'd like to start with, I'm so sorry to hear about your dad and, you know, 65 is actually a really young age at the moment, isn't it? So I can totally understand any fear that has really come from your dad, you know, passing away at this age from heart disease as well. I mean, I'm sure that your brain has automatically gone to, oh my goodness, my weight.What am I eating? Am I eating too much fat, too much salt, you know, am I healthy enough? You know, what can I do within my control? Like, what can I do? And I want to add that because you've actually named yourself as overweight and you know, BMI is like awful. We know that BMI is awful.We know that BMI is a really terrible way to, um, for the healthcare professionals to say how, whether they're assuming someone is healthy or unhealthy, whereas a chart with some numbers can't accurately name us as unhealthy or healthy or accurately say, and what kind of risk we have in our bodies as well, because it's really putting fatness and health kind of together and kind of connecting that together.So I'm going to kind of take that you feel that you are overweight. I don't know if you are in a large body yourself because BMI scale and the size or the level of fatness that you're at, they don't go together. But I know we can talk about a lot of internalized fatphobia and anti-fat in relation to this as well.Laura: Mm.Jeanette: We know that regardless of our weight, we can have healthy behaviors that can really. be protective towards us, can really support our health and support our heart heart's health. None of that means that it's a guarantee, but it means that we can feel supportive um, regardless of what we do in with the size of our body, we know that we don't have the diet to actually reduce our risk of any cardiovascular disease and any, any problems with that.And really good things to read around that is really having a look at, uh, The Fat Doctor UK and their Twitter and their posts as well are really good. Um, who else? Ragen as well. Um, you'll have to put these things in these showLaura: I'll link to it. So Ragen Chastain has a great, uh, newsletter called, um, Weight and Healthcare, and it's basically how to approach the healthcare system in a weight inclusive way. So she unpacks things like you were saying about how BMI is really not a helpful measure of our health. It's just a way of like categorizing bodies and gatekeeping healthcare, which is so fucked up when you think about it.Um, I would also say Aubrey Gordon's work might be a good place to, yeah, so Aubrey has two books, which I will link to in the show notes. So one of them is called What We Don't Talk About When We Talk About Fat, and the other one that just came out, um, like a month or so ago is, um, You Just Need to Lose Weight and Other Myths.So I would start there in terms of like an accessible place to learn about internalized weight stigma, medical fat phobia, anti-fat bias in general. I also wanted to offer, you don't say this explicitly but I wondered as well about you know, if what part of what you're looking for here is something around how you can care for yourself and pre prevent, or, I don't wanna say prevent ill health because we also know that a lot of this is out of our control.A lot of our health is determined by the social determinants of health as well as things like our genetics. Um, but what can you do to care for yourself in a weight inclusive, non diet way? And there are things that you can do, like you alluded to Jeanette around how we care for ourselves.And I wanna say as well that you're not obligated to be healthy, but I also understand why you might wanna find things that help you feel better and, and care for yourself. So I wanted to offer that we put together a Weight Inclusive Guide to Dyslipidemia or elevated blood cholesterol.And so if that is something that you're navigating, then that might be a helpful guide because it talks about supportive behaviors and in a kind of like more holistic way than just like lose weight, go on a diet. So I'll link to that in a show notes too. But I think like something for me that that kind of came up was like this idea of not, not sure how best to describe myself.And I wondered if we should like, talk a little bit about language and you know, how we kind of. Yeah. The language that we use around, around fat bodies, like this is something that we were talking before we started recording, and it's like, it's something that I grapple with a lot because like, technically according to my BMI I am the O word, right?And, but at the same time, I'm straight size, right? I can go into most clothes shops and be able to find something, um, I can fit into, you know, normal, not normal. What am I trying to say? I can fit into plane seats without worrying about, um, being really uncomfortable. Like, I don't have to think about access.But at the same time, there are, you know, real material things that I have to navigate. Like, you know, the example that I was giving you that I said to you earlier is like, if I were to get pregnant, I would be obese at my booking appointment, and that would have implications for the type of care that I was, and the type of birth that I was entitled to.And my maternity pathway would be completely different because of that. So there's this, it is kind of, I suppose what I'm grappling with is, you know, the loss of privilege as your body gets bigger while still having a fuck ton of thin privilege. I don't even know if that what my point was there, but what did it bring up for you?Jeanette: For me, it brings up a lot about the conversation to do with mid-size.Laura: Mid-size? Yeah.Jeanette: Yeah. That's what it kind of brings up because you Laura: Do you wanna explain that?Jeanette: Yeah, so mid-size is something that people tend to use and they use it in. This is the thing, this is the tricky thing that I find with mid-size because I find that it, it can be useful and could be useful for a lot of people, but I also feel like it is used for some people to distance themselves away from fatness.So it may be used by people who maybe small fats. So small fats are generally people who, who are like a 18 to 20Laura: So that's like a UK 18 to 20. Yeah. CauseJeanette: A UK.Laura: Most of our listeners are in the US, which I find it really weird, but that whatever. Yeah. So UK 18 to 20 Jeanette: Yes. I'm Laura: Would be. Jeanette: Would be for us, but a UK 18 to 20 a roundabouts. And it's, you know, when we're talking about small fat, we're talking about a person in a body who's just beginning to experience a lot more. Um, well experience quite a big loss of, um, body privilege, but not quite enough that they still, that, you know, they still fit in society.It's just that it's uncomfortable to fit in society. Then you have mid fat, which is, it's more uncomfortable, you know, you, you can fit into most seats, but you might end up, um, getting bruises from them and then you get super fat which is probably won't be able to fit in some of the seats. And you will be getting bruises.You will be hurting from sitting in, you know, so we have this kind of level of body privilege we can talk about. And some mid-size people use the term mid-size to distance themselves because of their own internalized fat phobia from calling themselves a small fat or identifying as fatness. But then also we have a group of people who potentially, you know, like you were saying, who are potentially are still experiencing some form of anti-fat really, and because of the BMI scale and that kind of thing, but aren't fat, but aren't straight sized.So they're trying to carve out a space for them in like a community way to try. But it, it's really difficult I think, and I think it's difficult to find that space, which is why I'm very much of the opinion of you. We need to try and find a way that is honouring our fattest people and trying to find equity and you know, lift up our fattest people whilst at the same time recognizing that there are people who are in smaller bodies who are still experiencing some form of anti-fat as well.Laura: Yeah. And I think there were a couple of different things that you talked about there, Janette, that I just wanna like go back to. So when you use the terms small fats, mid fat, large fat, and then super fat and infini fat, you're talking about what is often referred to as like fat degrees or the fat spectrum, right?And so what that names is how, as our body size gets bigger, we lose more and more privilege and become further and further marginalized.And, Linda from, uh, fluffy Kitten Party has done a great explainer on categories and it would be, I think it's a really helpful resource if this is new to you, like how do you, like what language do we use to describe our bodies?The midsize thing is a whole fucking trip, where I think like in its original inception, it was this really important kind of bridge for people between who were at the top end of the straight size spectrum. So maybe like a 16 to 18Jeanette: Yeah.Laura: Who or like the bottom size of the plus size spectrum when it comes to like, clothing, let's say. Because I think that really the mid-size thing is about clothing a lot of times. And like how it can be, you know, it can be really tricky if, if you're in that spot to like, do I try and shop in straight size stores where it might not quite fit, but then the plus size stuff doesn't always fit either.So like it can be a tricky space to be in and you still have a fuck ton of body privilege. Right. And then, but what it feels like has happened is that like objectively straight size people, like people who are like a UK size 12 have co-opted this term.Jeanette: Mm-hmm.Laura: And just because they're not like stick thin, they are like, oh, they're like, it's, yeah. It's kind of, they're using it to, to, to kind of like take up space basically, when actually they're just like a fraction away from the idealJeanette: Yeah.Laura: and they're still comparing themselves to that thin ideal. And that's where I think the problem is.Jeanette: Yeah. And that's the problem of society, isn't it? That's the problem that if we are not conforming to this really quite strict view of, you know, thinness and beauty, then you know, you've, we've got a whole load of different people trying to find community in the way that best fits them.And I think that's where fat liberation really can come in because, you know, everyone's trying to carve out their own space for them. Whereas actually body liberation and, and fat liberation is all about widening that lens to other people. We are not just trying to carve out the space for ourselves individually.We're trying to carve out spaces and take up space in a way that honors other people's space that they're taking up as well and uplifting the bodies that are the most marginalized and going, okay, these are the people who need this space and we want them to have this space. They deserve unconditionally to have this space as well.And that's when I think it's really unhelpful when we have people who are trying to create community and take up their own space when they're not thinking about their impact on the other people and marginalized bodies around them.Laura: Yeah. And that's, I think the thing about the mid-size trend is that there is no acknowledgement of either thin privilege or of body liberation or of how there are people that are way more oppressed than, you know, struggling to find clothes for your size 12th body. Right. Jeanette: Definitely. Laura: Okay. I think, do we have time for one more question? Should we do one more and then, Jeanette: Let's do this. Okay, so this is a question from Janice. I've been on a disordered eating recovery journey for about three years. My rejection of diet culture and calling out of weight stigma, particularly in the medical profession, has been a dramatic change. My husband is not on this journey with me and is still fully committed to diet and exercise equals health and wellbeing.We've had arguments about it because when I call out weight stigma, he gets defensive. He now says he won't speak to me about body image, food, eating because he feels attacked. He also feels that my views are just subjective opinions and there is no evidence that what I say is true. I get upset and then I can't think objectively either.What is the easiest and quick data I can, or research that backs up our non diet, weight inclusive approach to health? Or should I just accept that this is something we really can't talk about at the moment and I continue my work and get in therapy for support. I really appreciate your advice and obviously love the podcast, and.Laura: Oh, oh, Janice, Janice, Janice, Janice. I felt really sad re when this question came in, we can, and we will give you papers that you can read, that's fine. But that's so far from the point here. It's so far from the point, because even if this is just your subjective experience, that really fucking matters, that's so important and you deserve to have your experiences validated.And so I just wanna do that first and foremost, like your experience of weight stigma, and particularly like you say in the medical profession, that's so valid and it matters and it's important. And I'm really sorry that that has been dismissed or trivialized. It's obviously not just in your head. So yeah, that's the first thing that I wanted to offer is that that really matters and that's really important. And I'm really sorry that you know, someone who you love and care about has dismissed you like that. That must be extremely painful. What are you thinking, Jeanette? Like can see youJeanette: Yeah.Laura: Just looking really sad as well.Jeanette: I just really feel for Janice, and I also think this is something that comes up a fair bit as well, especially if, um, the person themselves is in a large body and a fat body. And especially if the partner is at a fat or large body themselves, because obviously they've got a lot of work to be doing themselves around, you know, rejecting diet culture and working on challenging than internalized fatphobia.But I also, it's difficult doing that journey without a supportive partner. And it's even more difficult doing it with someone who wants to challenge, even if it's something that's subjective, that's hard. But also even if we gave, you know, give researching and show papers, I find it doesn't necessarily always, sometimes it does change people's mind because people need to be in the right place themselves to be able to hear the message.Unfortunately, this is why me and Laura aren't millionaires, because we can't go out and force people into rejecting diet culture. You've almost gotta get to this kind of place where you are ready to step into that space and ready to start doing this work of challenging everything that you've believed and everything you've internalized for pretty much the whole of our lives. And it's difficult. So difficult. Also thinking that the partner, your partner isn't in the same place that you are in relation to that as well. So, I'm sorry that you're experiencing this really.Laura: Yeah. And I don't know that I really have a, a helpful answer or solution. You know, I just wonder if you have like a safe place like that you can talk about these things and it doesn't sound like you necessarily do, but I wonder what like take to get you to be able to have conversations in a way that, you know, neither one of you feels attacked and you both have your experiences held and, and validated.And I don't know if that's like couples counselling or therapy or, you know, even working with like a Jeanette or a Laura or like, you know, somebody to help you process that together. And I'll link to some papers in the show notes, but like you say, Jeanette, I don't know if that's gonna nudge the dial any really, but the, the one that I'm thinking of is the Tracy Tylka paper, the weight inclusive versus weight normative approach to health because it really neatly, sort of lays out the issues and summarizes the evidence. I did a Q&A with a weight inclusive researcher, Lizzy Pope, a couple weeks ago, and she shared some research literature as well that that, um, and I think she includes that, that til paper that she uses when she's trying to convince other researchers that this is the way to approach things. Any other like resources or, or things that you think would be helpful?Jeanette: I think maybe you know, in the long term, something like that you can do as a couple to be able to validate each other. Trying to find that way forward is important. But in the short term, is there any way of you finding, um, your community, you know, have you got someone outside of your partner that you can discuss this with?Can you find someone, can you find someone through like Facebook groups? You know, is there anyone? Cause there's loads of really goods, um, anti-D diet, non-diet approach, Facebook groups that you can find. And although online friendship doesn't replace and obviously shouldn't replace the relationship that you have with your partner. But it could be a really good short-term solution. So you still have someone that you can talk to this, talk about all of your experiences about who can validate you, who can go, well actually yeah, this is what I'm experiencing as well, which might be useful.Laura: Yeah. I'm curious to hear like if you have, you know, if your husband has always been on board with this for you. If that's been like a learning curve. I feel like I'm pretty lucky in that Dave listens to all my podcasts and reads all my shit. Like he's the first person to see anything, to like read any drafts of anything I've written.So he just knows, that if he didn't get on board it would be divorce. Right. But I'm, I'm curious, like, did you have that, you know, because you've been on your own journey and we talked about that in the last podcast we did together, but how was, what was that experience like for you?Jeanette: I've had a very similar experience as you to be honest, I am incredibly lucky that, um, no matter what I have decided to do with my body, my husband has always been supportive, has always championed my own body autonomy. And I'm really, I'm really lucky, like exactly the same as you. He's always the first person to listen to podcasts and the first person to read my posts and, you know, he reads all my emails that he sends out.I dunno why he subscribes to them, but he also reads those, you know. So I'm really lucky. I think the place that I struggle with personally is my family. I have a member of my family who understandably, really understandably for her own personal reasons, is entrenched in diet culture. And I do set boundaries with, with her. And she knows that. And we've, we've had the, we've had the, the talk that, um, she's not allowed to talk about weight loss and diets and food being good and bad around the children especially. But she doesn't necessarily understand what I do. She's still very much, you know, fat equals bad. My family are all people who are in fat bodies.Like when you look at both sides of the, when I wear, I was, I was never just in, in my genetics to have a small body. I am six foot tall and I'm also fat. I am supposed to be taking up a lot of space. And when I look at the you know, the generations before me, they're the same. They're also tall people who are fat as well, which comes with a lot of generational, you know, diet culture. But yeah, it, it's hard. It's hard when you don't have family and you don't have, you know, in this case, a partner who is supportive of, of your own body autonomyLaura: Clearly the answer is you have to become an anti diet nutritionist. Like that's the, and then your husband will get it. All right, easy just do that.Jeanette: We just literally talk at them for so long that they have to listen to us and internalizeLaura: Yeah. They have to, they have to get it, otherwise you threaten them with the divorce. So thank you for sharing that, Jeanette. Really appreciate it. I think it's always like, just so much more helpful to hear people's personal experience. So yeah, I'm so glad that you were here to answer these questions with me.I don't feel like we give Janice a very satisfying answer. I'm sorry, Janice. Hopefully there is something to, to think about in that. But, um, yeah, I think we, we've covered a lot of ground here. There were a couple questions that we didn't get to, so maybe we'll do a part two at some point and finish them up.Should we share our snacks? So at the end of every episode, my guest and I share something that they're snacking on. So it can be like a podcast or a book, or a movie or a show, or like literal snacks. So what do you have for us?Jeanette: The first thing that came to mind of what I have been snacking on recently is a podcast. And, um, I have been a very busy bee at the moment, so having a podcast, um, that has been away from like anti-diet Laura: Yes. Jeanette: Sort thinking about fatness and stuff has been a really lovely respite to me. And it's, um, my, and it's probably one, it's been out for a while. I think they're finishing up. my dad wrote a porno.Laura: Oh yeah. I haven't listened to that in so long.Jeanette: No, I keep on it. I started listening to it back in 2019 and then I kind of forgot about that. Now, every now and then I kind of pick up, I go, oh my goodness, I need this in my life. And it's usually when I'm really busy. Like usually when I'm really busy, my brain just needsLaura: Something. Yeah.Jeanette: and something really funny.And so that's what I've been snacking on at the moment. How about you?Laura: So funny. We've been watching a lot of Bob's Burgers, which I love, Bob's burgers. Because our kid goes to bed so freaking late these days, so we usually have like, you know, we just wanna watch something mindless for like 20 minutes before we go to bed, have a snack, and then like an, I mean an actual food snack, watch a show. So they, yeah, that's like, that's what we've been watching lately. Um, but also, like the other thing that I had, cuz just cuz it's sitting on my desk, this is super bougie, um, because I was like having a bad day and I went into asip, which is always a mistake. And I bought, what is it? It's, um, like body bam, pink grapefruit, orange rind and lemon rind. And it's in this like paint tube, which I love Jeanette: I love that.Laura: Yeah, it's so, it's not, I wish, like I'm, I'm holding it up to you, like, you can smell it, you can't, but it's like really citrusy and fresh and like Yeah. I just, it's very, it's like a complete indulgence. But I love it. So yeah, that's my snack also.Um, Jeanette, tell us where people can find more about you and your work and a little bit of what you're up to.Jeanette: Okay. Um, you can find me on Instagram, the mindset nutritionist. You can find my freebie, which is great on my website, www dot mindset nutritionist dot co uk.Laura: Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, go download Jeanette's freebie. It's all about getting in the picture and yeah, being there for the, the moment and not being like hyperfocused on how you look or your body. Jeanette: Thank you so much for saying that for me,Laura: All right. Thanks for listening everyone, and thank you, Jeanette for being here and helping us answer all those questions.Jeanette: so much for having me.OUTROLaura Thomas: Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Can I Have Another Snack? If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review in your podcast player and head over to laurathomas.substack.com for the full transcript of this conversation, plus links we discussed in the episode and how you can find out more about this week's guest. While you're over there, consider signing up for either a free or paid subscription Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter, where I'm exploring topics around bodies, identity and appetite, especially as it relates to parenting. Also, it's totally cool if you're not a parent, you're welcome too. We're building a really awesome community of cool, creative and smart people who are committed to ending the tyranny of body shame and intergenerational transmission of disordered eating. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas, edited by Joeli Kelly, our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser. And the music is by Jason Barkhouse. 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Today I'm talking with Dr. Scott Griffiths. Scott is a senior lecturer in the School of Psychological Sciences at the University of Melbourne. He leads the Physical Appearance Research Team, a multidisciplinary group of researchers and health professionals who investigate body image, appearance related stigmas and discrimination, appearance enhancing substances, appearance enhancement and appearance related psychological disorders such as eating disorders and body dysmorphic disorder.I wanted to talk to Scott about the phenomenon of muscle dysmorphia, a disorder that sits somewhere between a body dysmorphic disorder and an eating disorder that tends to impact cis boys and men. It's sometimes characterised as the male anorexia. Of course cis boys and men get anorexia too, but muscle dysmorphia is a bit different. It's sometimes known as Bigorexia. It's when an individual doesn't believe that they're big enough or sufficiently muscular to the point that they devote their lives to gains and progress in the gym. They might follow extremely strict diets which prioritise protein and cut out a lot of carbohydrates, and in some cases men can turn to using anabolic steroids, which have some really serious long-term effects for both physical and mental health as you'll hear us talking about. A lot of Scott's research is about the ways that social media, and particularly TikTok feeds people who are vulnerable to eating disorders or muscle dysmorphia, more and more content that upholds unrealistic body and image based ideals, and actually fuels eating disorders.It's really interesting research to hear about, but as a parent and as someone who works with eating disorders, it's really terrifying.Find out more about Scott's work here.Follow his work on Twitter here.Follow Laura on Instagram here.Subscribe to my newsletter here.Here's the transcript in full:Scott: When you're on your feed and TikTok is delivering videos for you to consume, all of the reference points you are getting from content that it's popular and influential and that people are responding to it. It's so divorced from reality that you've got a greater pool of people comparing and feeling poorly about themselves and now investing in the general necessity of looking better.INTROLaura: Hey, and welcome to Can I Have Another Snack? I'm Laura Thomas, an anti-diet, registered nutritionist, and author of the Can I Have Another Snack newsletter. We're having conversations about how we nourish ourselves and our kids in all senses of the word in the hellscape that is diet culture.Today I'm talking with Dr. Scott Griffiths. Scott is a senior lecturer in the School of Psychological Sciences at the University of Melbourne. He leads the Physical Appearance Research Team, a multidisciplinary group of researchers and health professionals who investigate body image, appearance related stigmas and discrimination, appearance enhancing substances, appearance enhancement and appearance related psychological disorders such as eating disorders and body dysmorphic disorder.I wanted to talk to Scott about the phenomenon of muscle dysmorphia, a disorder that sits somewhere between a body dysmorphic disorder and an eating disorder that tends to impact cis boys and men. It's sometimes characterized as the male anorexia, which of course cis boys and men get anorexia too. But muscle dysmorphia is a bit different. It's sometimes known as bigorexia. It's when an individual doesn't believe that they're big enough or sufficiently muscular to the point that they devote their lives to gains and progress in the gym. They might follow extremely strict diets which prioritize protein and cut out a lot of carbohydrates. And in some cases men can turn to using anabolic steroids, which have some really serious long-term effects for both physical and mental health as you'll hear us talking about. A lot of Scott's research is about the ways that social media, and particularly TikTok feeds people who are vulnerable to eating disorders or muscle dysmorphia, more and more content that upholds unrealistic body and image based ideals and actually fuels eating disorders.It's really interesting research to hear about, but as a parent and as someone who works with eating disorders, it's. Really terrifying. So you'll notice that this episode has a slightly different vibe to some of the other episodes this season. I'm asking Scott more about his research on muscle dysmorphia rather than his, you know, personal story. And I'm curious to hear what you think of this episode and get some feedback from you as to whether you'd like more interviews with academics, researchers and practitioners with a particular kind of expertise or on a particular topic like this, in addition to hearing people's lived experience. So if you want, you can drop me a comment over on Substack underneath this episode, um, which you can find at laurathomas.substack.com.And while I have you here, just a reminder that Can I Have Another Snack? is entirely listener and reader supported, but in order to be able to cover the costs of admin and people and pay guests and contributors. A lot of my time is devoted to other work outside of the newsletter. That means I have less time to bring deeply researched essays as well as thoughtful interviews here on the podcast. I'd love to be able to devote most of my time to the work and the community that we're building here, but that means I need a lot more of you to consider becoming a paid subscriber. I also know that that's a big ask right now. So for the month of March, I'm running a one off spring sale on Can I Have another Snack subscriptions. They are 20% off, so for this month only, if you subscribe, you'll pay four pounds a month or 40 pounds for the year instead of five pounds a month or 50 pounds for the year, which is a bargain. I'm not going to be running this good a deal for the rest of the year, so now is the time to cash in. If you've been sitting on the fence it's time to make a move. I'll put a subscription link in the show notes. You can also gift a subscription to a friend or family member or a coworker and get that same deal. And remember that if you want to sign up with some pals or like your NCT group from five years ago, you always get 20% off of group subscriptions. So I will also link to group subscriptions in the show notes.Okay, team, I appreciate your support and hopefully one day we can make this work more sustainable, so I can give up my side hustles. Thank you so much for being here. Here is my interview with Scott Griffiths.MAIN EPISODELaura: All right, Scott, I would love it if you could start by telling us a little bit about how you got interested in studying appearance related psychological disorders like body dysmorphic disorder and eating disorders.Scott: When I was a teenager, I worked at a cinema and someone who worked there who was kind of a friend of mine, a young woman, she had anorexia, and I remember at the time being completely mystified by her ailment and predicament. And it's probably quite stigmatizing in retrospect because it seemed to me as a, you know, kind of a fool, that the solution to her problem was readily at hand.Like she was really thin and, and just needed to eat. And that kind of set my thinking in motion about the really complex feelings and beliefs that folks can have about their body and their eating, et cetera. And it was when I was in undergraduate doing a, a Bachelor of Psychology that I had a couple of friends, both young men who would say things to me that would remind me of that young woman who had anorexia in the cinema and things they would say were similar, but the manifestations of them were different. The kinds of eating and, and training and the bodies that they wanted for themselves were all different, but it's core, it seemed like the same kind of issue and disorder. So I think that was what got me interested. And it's developed a lot since then.Laura: Yeah, it's so interesting. I think you know that I work with people with eating disorders and something I often hear from them is like, well, it just, how misunderstood that the disorder is, and from the outside, especially to anyone who knows nothing about eating disorders, it seems like, yeah, it's really simple just to eat more food.But I think you've been on your own learning journey with that and, and come through the other side and realized it's, it's a lot more complicated than that. These people would, you know, if, if it was just, just as easy as eating food, they would do it. But unfortunately that's, that's not the case.Sorry, that was a little tangent cuz I think you were touching on something that I know is really important to those with lived experience of eating disorders. And then kind of moving further along, it's really interesting that you saw the parallels between anorexia nervosa and then what I think you would probably characterize as body dysmorphic disorder. Which is the same but different. And maybe the same is too much of a stretch. But it's similar, but also different. So I'm wondering for people who are unfamiliar with body dysmorphic disorder, can you tell us what exactly it is and maybe some of the, the des describing more of the parallels between something like anorexia nervosa or what we would consider to be a more traditional in inverted commas eating disorder versus what we see in the BDD presentation.Scott: When I was talking with those, those friends, those young men when I was at university the disorder that would best capture what was going on for them is something we call muscle dysmorphia, which is a subtype of body dysmorphia disorder, which kind of sits alongside eating disorders. They are distinct, but they're often comorbid.They both have body image often as a central element. So body dysmorphic disorder, the cardinal symptom is you believing there is a defect in your appearance. It can be completely imaginary or it can be real, but the severity of it in your head is almost always much more severe than it is in actual objective reality.And in the context of muscle dysmorphia, which many people, including myself, see more as an eating disorder than body dysmorphic disorder. The defect in appearance is guys, some girls, but often guys who objectively are, are very large and muscular, but when they look in the mirror, what they see reflected back to them is someone who is scrawny, out of shape or overweight.Just a big difference to how they actually are not at all dissimilar to anorexia where we have people, often young women predominantly, but also some men who look in the mirror and see someone reflected back to them who is very different to how they actually look.Laura: It's interesting that you said that you characterize muscle dysmorphic disorder as more similar to an eating disorder than to true body dysmorphic disorder, and I'm curious to hear a little bit more about why you feel like it fits more into that category.Scott: Yeah. To be fair, when people debate about whether muscle dysmorphia ought to be a body dysmorphic disorder as it currently is classified or an eating disorder, it feels a little bit like a semantic exercise.Laura: Absolutely.Scott: The real push and importance in research as far as I'm concerned, is trying to understand both disorders and develop better treatments and trying to figure out which, which category where there's so much overlap between these two categories already, it belongs to, feels a little like a moot point, but to, to answer the question. For me, it's because when you look at the central pathology that motivates folks with muscle dysmorphia, the low self-esteem, especially around appearance, the kinds of things they believe with respect to why they have to look a certain way in order to have worth and be loved.The attention given to dieting and to exercise and the inability to tolerate deviations from that, the need to constantly progress, the perfectionism, it's all there. It all feels like different sides of the same coin. And when I speak to people, including yourself and your audience, it feels to me like explaining away muscle dysmorphia as one manifestation of an eating disorder, kind of like anorexia, or the reverse of it is just an easy way to see how it is that eating disorders are so much more than just thinness, that they can manifest in all sorts of different ways depending on the types of bodies that people feel compelled to achieve for themselves.Laura: Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. And I'm, I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about sort of, you know, maybe not with going with, without going into tons and tons of detail that might be upsetting to hear, but just tell us a little bit about, a bit more about you know, how would you know if someone had muscle dysmorphic disorder? You know, I'm thinking about parents who, you know, what are the signs and symptoms that someone might want to look out for that are sort of red flags, if you will.Scott: Got you. So, when you're trying to identify red flags, some muscle dysmorphia, a useful starting point is to recognize that almost everything that is common in muscle dysmorphia can exist and be benign. So you can train five, six days a week every day of the week if you want. And it's completely fine, as long as it's working for you.You can diet right, and it can be fine. Not a psychological disorder if it's working for you. It's not encouraging people to go and do it, but it's not a psychological disorder to do it in muscle dysmorphia. It's when there is a preoccupation and that preoccupation is causing impairment. So it could be that your training and dieting have become so strict that when you feel that your training or dieting are about to be compromised in some way, maybe there's an important social occasion that you have to attend, and it means that you don't get to stick to your diet or go to train or something unexpected comes up, and you have to prioritize that other important unexpected thing.If that brings you anxiety and guilt makes you angry at yourself, then you are in the territory of massive dysmorphia as opposed to just behaviors that are otherwise benign with respect to disorder.Laura: Yeah, so you're just highlighting here that you know, the behaviors in and of themselves are not pathological. You know, plenty of people go to the gym, you know, they are super careful with their diet. Where it runs into kind of hot water is when, you know, that becomes almost like all encompassing.It takes over your life. It doesn't allow for any flexibility. It becomes very rigid. You can't go to your mates birthday party or just like, go pick up a pizza after work because it's a mess. So that flexibility in eating, that flexibility in your social life, but also I suppose kind of the feelings of guilt, remorse, stress, that might come up if you do do those things.Scott: That's right. And the deteriorations tend to come from many places. They don't just come from one. So maybe you find that on the days where you have to rest where you can't be in gym training, cuz you've gotta have a couple of rest days to recover, you don't feel so good on those days. Maybe every time you don't progress in the gym, so you're not adding on to the weight, you're not getting stronger, it makes you feel like rubbish.Whereas when you first started out, maybe all of those things made you feel really good. Maybe your relationships are starting to suffer. Maybe your partner has had four or five conversations with you now about how they don't like how it's so challenging to go out to a restaurant, et cetera, etc.There's going to be no one thing, but the things tend to all come. Together. And what's challenging as you would well know in the eating disorder space is that the person who is in the thick of it is sometimes not the best judge of how extreme and rigid what they are doing is, and not uncommon at all to have folks who've come out the other end of these disorders look back and say, oh man, I can't believe I didn't see just how crazy it was for me at that.Laura: And that's a really important point, and I'd like to come back and think a little bit about how particularly a parent might address this or raise their concerns with you know, maybe their teen who they know is becoming super fixated on the gym and really rigid around that.Maybe we could come back to that because I feel I still wanna characterize a little bit more of what might be going on for people with muscle dysmorphic disorder. And a big piece that I feel like we haven't talked about yet is the use of anabolic steroids.So yeah, could you tell us how that and maybe any other kind of diet aids and things fit into the picture of muscle dysmorphic disorder?Scott: Yeah, sure. So, if you wanted to be thin and skinny and you were going to abuse drugs to get there, you might use laxatives and diuretics. If you wanna be big and muscular the drug that will typically be abused is anabolic steroids. So the most basic anabolic steroid is just a synthetic form of testosterone, the sex differentiating hormone that men tend to have more of than women, and it helps to synthesize muscle. So if you wanna be bigger muscular, if you've been influenced by, you know, famous fitness influencers, many of whom are using steroids, it may be something you're tempted to turn to and unlike with laxatives and diuretics, where if you take them, they don't have any substantive impact on the calories that you absorb (another way of saying they don't work very well). anabolic steroids, unfortunately do work very well. It's a bit of a public relations disaster, really.Laura: Can I just put a tiny caveat that for people who abuse laxatives and diuretics, in terms of, I just wanna highlight that they are still really dangerous and they can cause electrolyte imbalances. Just because I know people with eating disorders will listen to this podcast and I've worked with eating disorders for long enough to know that they will hear that and think, oh, okay, that means they're safeSo, I just want to highlight that it can cause problems in terms of your intestines. There can be problems with, I'm forgetting the terminology now, but basically twisting your intestines because it just messes with your digestion so much.I'm thinking about laxatives here, but also it can cause dangerously low electrolyte levels in the body, which can cause fits and seizures. So they're not benign, and I don't want anyone to walk away with the message that they're benign. But that's aside from what you're talking about, which is that yeah, you know that people with muscle dysmorphic disorder are more likely to abuse steroids.So, yeah. Could I pass it back to you now?Scott: Of course, and steroids on top of being effective, which makes them very attractive in terms of, you know, as a temptation they also have rather significant health consequences, especially in the long term. But why I bring up the fact that they are effective for building muscle into such a significant degree that you have outfits like the International Olympics Committee who test for doping.The use of things like steroids in sports is because once you're on them, you will experience the progress that you've been craving and to a very significant degree. So folks will get on them, they will put on a lot of muscle, they might even lose some body fat at the same time, which is incredibly challenging to do if you are not on these substances.And of course, they feel. for a time, but they still have the core beliefs and attitudes and thinking so that high doesn't last for very long. But now not only are they not satisfied with their current size often, but to drop in size by coming off would trigger the kinds of intense feelings and distorted thinking that you also see when folks with anorexia are going through recovery and are, you know, weight restoring.So it's incredibly challenging. And what ends up happening is that you have to then treat both the muscle dysmorphia, which is very much a psychological disorder, and the anabolic steroids and their effects, which is an endocrine impactor. And dealing with these in combos is challenging.Laura: And, I was just wondering if you could talk a little to the, the longer term side effects of of the steroid use.Scott: Sure. So the longer term side effects tend to focus on increased mortality and morbidity from, from cardiovascular events, heart attacks, enlarged hearts. The endocrine effects focus predominantly on the capacity of your endocrine system to resume a normal amount of testosterone production endogenously, so from within, subsequent to stopping steroid use.Because when you flood your system with anabolic steroids or synthetic testosterone, the reason men's testicles shrink is because most of the function of testicles is to make testosterone. So the body says, oh, I'm full of testosterone. Now I'm not gonna make any more myself. But when you doing the injections of the tablets and you don't have that testosterone coming in, the body has to restart that system from scratch. And as we've learned, it is not very reliable at doing that. And it is very unpredictable how well that is gonna happen. And there's many, many, many instances of men as young as 23, 24, who will be on testosterone replacement therapy for their entire life, and who have their fertility are greatly compromised now because their bodies have not resumed normal testosterone production.Laura: Yeah. What you're describing is really similar to what happens when once this women are taking the contraceptive pill and then they come off of it and they might not restart their period for five or six months after, hopefully all going well. But what you're talking about, I think in muscle dysmorphic disorder, where there's an abuse of these drugs that those, as I understand it, the doses are much higher than a typical physiological dose.And so the impact, the effect is much, much greater and could last a lot longer, you know, if function is ever fully regained.Scott: Yeah. To give you some context, a beginner's of anabolic steroids, a beginner steroid cycle, if you will, might prescribe something like 500 milligrams of testosterone enate, a really commonly available steroid. I'd wager a bet that it's most widely available in the UK, certainly is in Australia. That beginner's dose is already five times higher than the maximum that a healthy male would produce on their own. And that much testosterone, flooding a system is beyond the bounds of what the human body is used to dealing with. Laura: Yeah. And, and you mentioned you know, the UK context there and there were headlines a couple of years ago that suggested that first of all, that predominantly steroid users in the UK were were using steroids as an appearance or an aesthetic related, you know, for aesthetic reasons rather than for purely like bodybuilding lifting reasons.Although I, I can imagine those things get kind of murky to tease apart and. At that time, I think this was about 2018 the, the reports were that there were about a million steroid users in the UK for, you know, for aesthetic reasons. Is that an accurate reflection? Do you know? Like, is that likely an underestimation, an overestimation, or do we have any, any real sense of what's going on?Scott: I'd say there's a great chance that's an underestimate. Steroid use is incredibly stigmatized. It's heavily criminalized and users are extremely loath to admit even to health professionals that they use anabolic steroids. And you see these schisms even in fitness communities online. So Instagram, TikTok, where there's this constant accusations that someone is using steroids or is natural or bloody for short. So, it's all very underground and it means that whenever you do get an, an estimate based on data that is credible. So in Australia that would be visits to needle and syringe programs as one example, to get injecting equipment for steroids. You can be almost certain that that's just a fraction of what's actually going on out there. And all the evidence we have, at least in Australia suggests that anabolic steroid use is increasing in prevalence and it's gone from something that used to be the purview of just athletes through to professional weightlifters to now those only being a minority. It's very much an aesthetics driven thing.Laura: So tell us what we know about who Muscle Dysmorphic Disorder impacts. You've alluded to that it's mostly cis men. But can you elaborate any further on that?Scott: Sure. So itt's mostly cis men because cis men are the largest pool who would want to be muscular. But you see certain subpopulations of men who are more vulnerable. Gay men are more vulnerable to muscle dysmorphia and to using anabolic steroids because of the heightened appearance pressures in that space. Younger men. So it does tend to be something that has its onset in younger years similar to anorexia.Laura: Sorry, I was gonna ask you, we know kind of what age do boys start becoming vulnerable? Because we know in anorexia it can be as young as like eight or nine sometimes, and that age is getting younger and younger.Scott: Yeah. And you see the same thing in muscle dysmorphia. So the first vulnerability factors can appear there. Studies have been done with action figurines and you have young boys asked which one do they prefer more? And they're able to, to, they have their preferences in line with what you'd expect, and they'll expect a preference for their own bodies to look certain ways, as you'd expect, given media messaging.So the vulnerability factors are there. In terms of muscle dysmorphia on setting tends to take quite a while. You'd be familiar. It's not the case that you hear a couple of messages, you get a mean comment about your appearance, and then suddenly you have it . It's years of internalizing and a bunch of factors that come along, and then it might strike in your teens or your early adulthood.And we see that in muscle dysmorphia too. Steroids often come into the piece a little later, so early adulthood to mid, and it's because they're expensive and they're hard to access.Laura: Yeah. You need to be kind of savvy also. Yeah. I can imagine kids who have figured out the whole cryptocurrency thing. I'm sure that they, you know, would get in there if they could, if they had the means. So you're saying gay men are more at risk. What, are there any other sort of subpopulations that you know, you're particularly worried about?Scott: Men who are in sports for which body weight or some aesthetic element around body weight is a key part. So not uncommon to have guys with muscle dysmorphia say that a lot of some of these thoughts came about because they had to weigh in for their sports. Maybe they were, they were boxes or fighters, something like that. So it just primed them to be in the space of being anxious about the number on the scale and how their fitness was progressing. Things like that.Laura: Do we know anything about racialized groups and, and who might be most at risk?Scott: There is some evidence though, it's not great in terms of its quality as of yet, that folks in predominantly white countries who are not white themselves may be at greater risk for both muscle dysmorphia and steroid use. Data we produced in Australia that was specific to gay bisexual men of, of various races suggested for example, that, you know, if you were an Asian gay man in Australia, that you might be more likely to use anabolic steroids and to succumb to muscle dysmorphia.And in talking with Asian gay men in interviews in qualitative research, part of it is because, you know, if you are an Asian gay man in Australia, then you are often stereotyped as being more feminine. You're not able to be part of the masc for masc subculture, which is still quite dominant and exclusionary and anabolic steroids are a way to compensate for those other aspects of your appearance that are diminishing your masculine capital. You can see something similar happen for men who are shorter. If you go to spaces online where men are complaining about being short to other men, they'll often see, just hit the gym, just get jacked. It's a way to compensate for those other elements that are not helping you to embody that masculine archetypal, conventionally attractive male.Laura: Hmm. Okay. A while back, you talked about pressures from the media. And that has, you know historically, particularly in anorexia research, been held up as a huge antecedent, I suppose, to eating disorder precipitation, but now there's this whole other layer of social media on top of things. How does, and I'm thinking about the fact that young people in particular hang out on TikTok and Instagram and Facebook and maybe less Facebook these days I don't know. I don't go on Facebook. So what do we know about the influence that social media is having on aesthetic and appearance based pressures?Scott: Social media makes people more vulnerable to eating disorders, including muscle dysmorphia. And if you are vulnerable, it can make the transition to having one of these disorders shorter. It can intensify it. And I think it can also assist in maintaining them for longer as well. So the reason why media messaging can be so problematic and damaging in terms of vulnerability for and experiencing eating disorders is because you end up with all these idealized reference points and what social media does is expands that limitlessly so that when you're on your feed and TikTok is delivering videos for you to consume, all of the reference points you are getting from content that is popular and influential and that people are responding to. It's so divorced from reality that you've got a greater pool of people comparing and feeling poorly about themselves and now investing in the general necessity of looking better.Laura: So this is an area that you've been researching. Am I right?Scott: Yeah, that's right.Laura: Can you tell us a little bit more about, you know, specific studies or experiments that you've done, that you're excited to share a bit more about?Scott: So, you know, studies of social media, including of TikTok, generally what they will do is have an experiment and you'll show people some images or videos from social media platforms that you're worried about and see how people respond. Or you have people answer a survey question that will amount to, how often do you use, say, TikTok, Instagram, and you correlate that with some measure like how you feel about your body.And that's all well and fine. But where the real explanatory power is, in my mind, is in big data and getting access into exactly what people are seeing and viewing so you can map their social media experience. So what we've been able to do is to take a group of people with eating disorders and a group of people who, we call it our healthy controls, that don't have eating disorders. And see their entire TikTok algorithm from the day they installed it to the day we requested the data. And that means we can track exactly every video that's being delivered to them, the comments, the likes, all with their consent, I'll just say, of course not being done without that. And we can see what is happening.What it means is we can show things like if you are someone with an eating disorder, your TikTok algorithm that decides what videos you see every time you log in is 50% more likely to deliver you an appearance oriented video for each and every video that you see compared to someone without an eating disorder.And the amount of videos that these folks are seeing, the average is around 2000 a month. So if you are someone in weekly therapy for an eating disorder, If you're a clinician and you have someone who you'reLaura: Oh my God. I'm just sitting here thinking about like some of my clients. I'm like,Scott: That's 500 videos on average that they are seeing between each session. And when we run studies to compliment these on new phones with fresh TikTok accounts that we manage, it only takes three minutes to get an appearance oriented video.You get 17 in the first 20 minutes. So it's not that people are seeking this content out. It happens anyway. And when we look at the rate of liking that folks with eating disorders have for this content versus folks without. It's not that the folks with eating disorders are looking for this content, they're liking it at the same rate because what's algorithm is doing is not taking what you like to determine what you want to see. They're interested in engagement, whether it's Facebook or, or Instagram or TikTok. It's what keeps you looking and what keeps you looking isn't just what makes you happy. It's what makes you anxious or what makes you upset. It's what makes you mad. And if you are someone who is really unhappy or worried about the way you look, it knows which videos will make you look more. And that's exactly what happens. And you can see over time how the algorithm becomes more echo chambery as people get sucked into the vortex of this content.Laura: I think the scariest part for me both as someone who works with eating disorders and as a parent, like my child is obviously not on social media right now, but will be one day I'm sure, is the fact that they know, like the social media companies know exactly what they're doing because wasn't it a couple of years ago, but there was a whistleblower at meta. Who said who, who said, we have all of this information that shows that our algorithms are making body image and eating disorders worse, and yet they're not doing anything about it.Scott: Yeah. And then they downplayed and discredited their own data generated by the star researchers they themselves hired which is absurd. And the reason that they don't wanna do anything about it is because the..Laura: It's capitalism.Sorry, go. Scott: No, you, you're exactly right. The money is made from engagement. And I think the faint that the social media companies do is to imply that what they're doing is giving people what they want, community connectedness. And when it comes to advertising that they're connecting people with the products that they want to buy. And through being able to like things, you can get the sense that, oh, the social media companies are just sitting back and people are doing what they want in there.They're getting what they want, but certainly, the controls that you think you have over what your algorithm, especially on TikTok is sending you is less. And it's about engagement. And engagement doesn't care how you feel, if it's positive or negative, it just cares that you spent the time. Whatever it takes to get you to do more time is what it is going to send you. It's worth noting also that when you look at the proportion of appearance honored content that your algorithm sends you, so how big this echo chamber is, that correlates strongly with the eating disorder symptoms. So the more your algorithm becomes, you know, polluted by appearance, honored content, the worse the eating disorder becomes in tandem. And why wouldn't it?Laura: I have a question, and you might not be able to answer this. One of my clients uses the term recovery porn in eating disorder recovery, which are all of these images of usually women who claim to be in recovery or recovered. Have you looked at the impact that these recovery accounts have on eating disorder recovery?Scott: I've not looked at that specifically, but I'm well aware of the phenomenon your client has described. And unfortunately, lots of social media phenomena and hashtags, like for example eating disorder recovery, body positivity is another good example.Laura: Yeah.Scott: They are not clear paragons, they're not at all as clearly useful as we would like them to be if someone went searching for them. You go looking for ed recovery, you might find an account that is extremely thoughtful in the way that that content is presented right alongside content that is clearly not being very helpful. Just like with body positivity, you might get someone who hearkens back to the, the fat acceptance movement, who's really preaching the fighting the good flight right next to someone who is perhaps well-meaning, but still thin, skinny, and they're pinching a tiny little roll of fat and going body positivity, which as I can tell from your reaction is missing the point.Laura: Yeah. Okay. Maybe, maybe something for a future research agenda then, Scott.Scott: Absolutely. It's a great suggestion.Laura: I'm curious to, because, and I think what it comes, what it comes back to you articulated it there really well. I think something that I tried to unpack with my clients, you know, is thinking about, okay, well, is this image, they might have the message on point, right? But if there's an image that is still highly focused on aesthetics, it's highly focused on their body and, you know, showing off their body in a particular way, then that really completely undermines the message that they might have been sending with the best of intention.So just a little interesting aside, but you know, you've talked about how social media, you know, there might be some benefits to social media. I think there's definitely some work that has shown that coming out of the center of appearance research, but it's murkier and less clearly defined than, than maybe we would like to think.So you painted this really dark picture of social media and, and how it contributes to muscle dysmorphic disorder. So I'm wondering what we can do both from maybe a clinical perspective, or maybe a public health perspective as well as maybe a parenting perspective to protect our kids from internalizing these messages because they're gonna be exposed to them. Right. We know that for sure. So how do we buffer the impact, both maybe at the broader public health level, because this is a public health issue clearly, but also maybe in our own parenting in our own homes. Scott: Yeah. And okay, you're absolutely right. You cannot start from a base of let's not use social media altogether. That's, that's the arena. That's where youth culture is driven in, telling young people not to use it is just not practical. So they're going to use it. Encouraging your child to be a critical consumer of media generally, including on social media, is really useful.I think if you feel confident enough to talk about it, explaining to them that what they see is delivered to them by algorithms can be useful. That's something we're exploring in our own research where we want young people to have a better understanding that what they're seeing in their feed is not a one-to-one reflection of reality to the world as it actually is.And that's beyond the, you know, manipulation of photos and self portrayals that go on, but like the algorithm just feeding you with whatever activates your emotions. Part of that is this tool we're developing that can visualize your algorithm for you so that you can know and compare it to others just how biased it's become. And this can be for clinicians too, because if you have a client walk in the door, you need to know if 70% of their feed is appearance oriented, which is not a number I picked out of thin air. That's an actual number from clients we had with anorexia nervosa. And then you can have a productive conversation with that person around, okay, your algorithm is not only not reflective of reality, it's doing you harm and this is how we can work to remediate it.Laura: I would definitely, like sign me up for that tool. I will test it for you. Whatever you need me to do.Scott: Lovely.Laura: So, so yeah, having conversations that, you know, that there's obviously, the images themselves have been highly altered, stylized, potentially photoshopped, all kinds of different things. But then there's this whole machinery and infrastructure behind that feeding you more and more and more of these idealized images.Scott: Yeah, that's it. And you know, when social media, the way we use it, a lot of the time, like a lot of the time when people are using TikTok, people's guards are down. It's incidental. It's minutes in bed when you first wake up, it's bed when you might be trying to go to sleep. It's when you're on a bus, it's when you're bored, it's when you're tired.It's not active consumption of content. And before you know it, you can have scrolled through or mindlessly watched tens and tens of videos that have appearance oriented content and, just like with how people think that advertising isn't working on them, but the reason that so much money is pumped into it is because it does have cumulative accumulative impacts on, on purchasing decisions. The same thing happens with social media, so it's about getting people to recognize that and to try to minimize what's happening in those spaces because it all adds up.Laura: You know, you said kind of towards the top of the interview that people who are deep in their eating disorder, whether it's anorexia, whether it's muscle dysmorphic disorder, bulimia, orthorexia, whatever form that takes, they are, you know, the least clear in what's going on, right? They're the least easily able to see what's going on. They are definitely aware that there's a problem, but they might not be able to identify exactly what that is. So, with that in mind, I'm wondering for, for parents particularly of teen boys, tweens and teens, it sounds like are both vulnerable and kind of heading into adolescence.If a parent notices more protein powders coming into the house, more you know, concerns about lean protein and less carbohydrates on the plate and more time working out or conversations about being fit, about being healthy, and they're, they're noticing that, that's becoming increasingly rigid and perfectionistic. How might a parent approach this, do you think? Scott: It's a very common question that has never had an answer come easy to me, as I'm sure it wouldn't for many parents because teenage boys are notoriously challenging to talk to and get to open up to, especially about these,Laura: Yeah, but you're a psychologist so you ,Scott: So I'm obliged to have an answer and I I have you. So I think the way we approach folks who we think have muscle dysmorphia, but who are perhaps reluctant to talk about it, is to emphasize those parts of their training and their dieting that aren't working for them. We don't say, “Is it making you sad or anxious?” and, “what's not working for you?” because often whether it's a young boy, a teen, a young adult, they're just thinking about progress. They wanna progress. It's, I want my lifts to get stronger, my body to get better, etc. And the things that we think of as the symptoms of the disorder, the things that we're worried about, they're not worried about them per se. They're worried about their progress. And it's those things on the side that are making it hard, right? So we frame it as, okay. What's, what's getting in the way of you being able to train and diet and be like this and, and that maybe it's, ah, you know, I couldn't, I couldn't train today. I had to go and do this.It's like, oh, okay. So like, how did it make you feel? It's like, you can try to get them to see that it's the rigidity that is being more unhelpful than helpful. We deliberately keep it above the level of feelings for a while until that is more approachable. Often with our young clients, we'll just pitch it as, look we don't want to change your training and your dieting. We're not gonna tell you not to go to the gym. We just want you to be in a space where you can get back to making the progress that you wanna make. Then you've got your foot in the door and you go from thereLaura: You're getting them on side. You're telling them I'm on your team. Yeah.Scott: Yeah. Because whilst you can say the term body image to most young women and they intuitively know what you're thinking about, if I try to say, “are you worried about your body image?” to a young man, even if I know they are, it's so super clear as day, a lot of the time they'll say no.Laura: Yeah,Scott: Like straight up, they'll say no to you. Because it's just not the language that they speakLaura: Yeah, yeah. But if you can talk to them in terms of gains and what's getting in the way of theirScott: What's getting in the way? You know, you're not talking about feelings per se. That's just the best way I can describe it. It's a very tactful and challenging spot to be in, I think.Laura: Yeah. I mean, my hope is that I never have to broach this conversation with my kid, but fuck parenting is hard, man.Scott: Yeah, I certainly empathize.Laura: And I really hope you don't say CBT right now, but what do we know about treatment? What is available to help young people, older people, whoever is impacted by muscle dysmorphia to help them recover?Scott: The evidence-based for effective treatment for muscle dysmorphia is extremely limited. It's nowhere near what we have for the other eating disorders. There is nothing in the way of an RCT or anything like that. I have a PhD student now who is running the first manualised treatment for muscle dysmorphia, so we'll see how that turns out.Generally speaking, the approaches that work for eating disorders will also work for muscle dysmorphia, in my opinion, because again, the core maintaining factors of the disorder and precipitating factors are very, very similar. And what has been encouraging as a first port of call, the major eating disorder charities that run helplines, so certainly the Butterfly Foundation in Australia perhaps BEAT over in the UK, they are increasingly cognizant of muscle dysmorphia and the helpline staff are better equipped to, to talk about it, which is perfect.Laura: I noticed the other day that there's even an NHS page, which, you know, you and I spoke a couple of years ago for Don't Salt My Game, and I'm pretty sure it didn't exist even then. So there is certainly more recognition and awareness, but it sounds like people are more equipped to have these conversations, certainly in the eating disorder space.I worry more about kind of general practice in terms of medicine because there's even and, and don't get, this is not GP bashing . We all know how much pressure GPs are under, but there is a lack of awareness even about more traditional eating disorders in that space. So yeah, I reckon BEAT would be probably the best first port of call there.But in terms of treatment, it sounds like we don't exactly know yet. Your sense is that probably some of the modalities that we use for other eating disorders are probably gonna be successful because of, you know, the same underlying maintaining and precipitating factors. But I guess we need to wait for your student to do their research before we have more clear answers on that.Scott: Yeah. But even then for the really convincing answer that yes, you can confidently send someone for this treatment and there's a great chance they get better years and years away from that. But what I find promising is in talking to eating disorder clinicians, in training them when it comes to muscle dysmorphia, it's not a case of, oh, how am I gonna do this?It's, oh wow. There's all the parallels are all there, which is great because it means that the tools are there, it's just a matter of education both on the part of the clinician and on on people and young men so that they know they can go and seek help and that help will be there to meet them.Laura: Absolutely. And I just wanna go back to the TikTok algorithm thing, which is super disturbing to me, but, but just to kind of close out, I wonder, you know, from your perspective as a researcher, what do we need to be doing both in terms of a research agenda, but maybe also like a public health policy agenda in terms of tackling some of these, like really problematic systems, I suppose, that young people are up against. I don't know if that question makes sense, but like, where do we go from here? What do we do with this?Scott: No, I've thought about this. There's the organizations I'm working with in Singapore, we've been talking about that at length and the broader conversation that needs to be had moving back from TikTok to algorithms and data generally is we need greater oversight and control of how our data is used to deliver us content of all kinds.Because people cannot bat an eyelid when they think of, alright, I wanna clean my house and I'm on Instagram and I got an ad for a cleaning product, cool. And in your ideal world, advertising connects you seamlessly to the things that can make your life easier. What you don't want is for an algorithm to see and know that a young person has been looking at a lot of videos that are around weight loss and now a targeted ad comes up for a weight loss supplement, cause that is how that data gets used also.And we need tools, I think like the one we're developing so that people can see what their algorithms are sending that. You should know. You should know if your algorithm is sending you three times more toxic masculinity content than someone else, if it's sending you more eating disorder content, if it's sending you more plastic surgery content.Because the first step in a battle is knowing what your algorithms are sending to you. And this issue only becomes more important because let's say you or I wanted to find out something factual, we go to Google.Gen Z uses things like TikTok for search. 40% of Gen Z prefers to use TikTok than Google for search, which means you are down the rabbit hole of the algorithm from day dot.So you need to know, but of course that information's never released to you. So it's pushing back against the opaqueness of the data that we provide and how that data is used to send us content because it's not in our, in the service of our health and connectedness and community. Again, it's in the service of, of money, and, and engagement. So I think that's the broader conversation, right? The data collected from us is not benign.Laura: Oh, absolutely. Wow. All right, Scott, on that cherry note, um, at the end of every episode, my guest and I share something that they have been really excited about lately. Um, So something they've been snacking on, either literally or metaphorically. Do you have something picked out?Scott: I do. So in Singapore, my favorite breakfast to have is kaya toast with some rather runny under soft boiled eggs with soy sauce and white pepper. It's a very common breakfast here, and I love it. It's so, so satisfying. I had it this morning. I'll have it again tomorrow.Laura: Sorry. What is the kind of toast did you say?Scott: It's called Kaya Toast. So it's like thick cuts of toast with butter that's called kaya butter. And it's slightly sweet. I think it has a more fun and complex flavour than regular butter. And you can dip that in eggs that are loaded up with white pepper and soy sauce.Laura: Got it.Scott: I love it.Laura: Oh, it sounds like they have a really amazing food culture over there. Like I've heard from people that they have like, you know, lots of different kinds of street food and stuff like that, so yeah. That sounds awesome. Mine is also a food so it's, I mean, it's only February at the time of recording, but like all the Easter stuff is now showing up in the shops and so I demolished a pack of like Doisy and Dam, which is like a brand of chocolate over here, mini eggs the other day. And they were so good. Like, I don't know if you get mini eggs in Australia, they're like solid chocolate eggs with like a candy kind of coating shell around them. And they're like all different kind of pastel kind of colors. Like yellow and pink and green and like eastery kind of spring colors.Scott: It's possible we do, I can't recall 'em off the top of my head,Laura: You're gonna tell me like you don't like chocolate or something.Scott: No, no, no. I love chocolate I'm not sillyLaura: So I think you would like, I know you would recognise them. So maybe you don't have them. You don't have them over there. All right, Scott, it's been really great to chat to you again. Can you let everybody know where they can find out more about you, your research group, or any of your publications? I will link to the study, the TikTok studies if they're published yet? Scott: They're in the process of being, so the best place to follow along with the research my team does, including the TikTok work, is at my Twitter. It's @Scott1Griffiths. Or just search Google. Scott Griffiths, Scott Griffiths Body Image Research or something like that, and it will come up. That's the easiest way.Laura: I'll link to it so that it saves people the minefield of Googling stuff.Scott: Yeah.Laura: But yeah, so that's the best place to follow along on your Twitter and get updates about your research. I can't wait to read that. Well say. I can't wait to read it. I'm really depressed after talking to you about the state of social media.I mean, I was already bummed out about it, but this has just solidified that for me. So thank you for that. But otherwise, it was really great to talk to you and it's obviously really essential and important research that you're doing. So thank you for taking the time to share it with us.OUTROLaura Thomas: Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Can I Have Another Snack? If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review in your podcast player and head over to laurathomas.substack.com for the full transcript of this conversation, plus links we discussed in the episode and how you can find out more about this week's guest. While you're over there, consider signing up for either a free or paid subscription Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter, where I'm exploring topics around bodies, identity and appetite, especially as it relates to parenting. Also, it's totally cool if you're not a parent, you're welcome too. We're building a really awesome community of cool, creative and smart people who are committed to ending the tyranny of body shame and intergenerational transmission of disordered eating. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas, edited by Joeli Kelly, our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser. And the music is by Jason Barkhouse. And lastly Fiona Bray keeps me on track and makes sure this episode gets out every week. This episode wouldn't be possible without your support. So thank you for being here and valuing my work and I'll catch you next week. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe

This is part 1 of a 2 part conversation with Emiko Davies, Australian-Japanese food writer, photographer and cook-book author.  Follow Laura on Instagram | Twitter Follow Emiko on Instagram Follow Don't Salt My Game on Instagram Laura's Website Check out Emiko's blog Buy a copy of Just Eat It | How to Just Eat It  Sign up for a Learn with LCIE Course Buy an Intuitive Eating friendly guide to managing different health concerns Edited by Joeli Kelly

Our very first guest is artist Laxmi Hussain whose stunning work depicts the softness of bodies and the tenderness of early motherhood. We talk about her postpartum experience, and how, even as a mother of three, her instincts were undermined and gaslit. We talk about how new mothers (especially pandemic mums) are repeatedly let down and dismissed. Laxmi shares her experiences of sharing her studio with a toddler and how he has become part of her process. We then go on to discuss her family's food culture and her own relationship to food and appetite. Lastly, we consider all the ways that our kids are told there is something fundamentally wrong with them, and how we as parents can give them the tools to develop resilience to these messages.Find out more about Laxmi hereFollow her work on Instagram hereBuy her art here (and buy one for me while you're at it!)Follow Laura on Instagram hereHere's the transcript in full.Laxmi Hussain  I hope that's the same message my children will understand. And not just for my daughter, but for my sons, too, that women's bodies aren't a particular shape or size or height, or, you know, they're so different. And I want them to know that that's normal. Because it has to, we have to feel that way. Like, I know that I probably won't change it hugely in my lifetime. But if I can change it for them, then I think that's a big deal. And hopefully, that will carry on forward.Laura Thomas  Hey, and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack? podcast, where I'm asking my guests who or what they're nourishing right now and who or what is nourishing them. I'm Laura Thomas, an anti-diet Registered Nutritionist and author of the Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter. My very first guest is artist Laxmi Hussain. Laxmi has been drawing for as long as she can remember, as a child in London, she would lose hours after school, sketching on the counter in her dad's corner shop. But it's only since the birth of her first child that Laxmi has turned her passion into a profession. Reinspired by the irrepressible joy and creativity shown by her children, she picked up the pencil once again, finding artwork to be a valuable means of reclaiming her own identity amid the emotional learnings of motherhood. Her inspiration comes from the forms encountered in everyday life -- from the body, the tenderness of motherhood, the natural shapes of the body as a vessel, and its evolution throughout life. Working in several different media, usually at night, Laxmi is driven by experimentation, constantly exploring new techniques, and searching for the shapes and subjects they express best. I was so thrilled that Laxmi agreed to be on the podcast. Her depictions of early motherhood and bodies stuck together have felt so validating for me personally as I navigate the relationship with my body postpartum. They offer relief from the idealised images we see of postpartum bodies, while still being so tender and beautiful. I love everything that Laxmi has to say in this episode, from just how unapologetically she loves being with her kids, to learning about her family's food cultures and her passion for food. Through our conversations about how pregnant and postpartum people are gaslit and dismissed at every turn, to how we can prepare our kids for a world that teaches them their bodies are wrong, and that they don't belong. I think you're gonna really love this conversation. Before we get to Laxmi, I just wanted to let you know that you're listening to the long edit of this episode. And from October, I'll be publishing a shorter edit here in your podcast player, and a special long edit for paid subscribers as a little bonus for supporting my work. Alongside weekly discussion threads, my dear Laura column, and loads of other fun perks, you can head to laurathomas.substack.com to subscribe, it's five pounds a month or 50 pounds for the year. And if that is inaccessible to you, for any reason, please just email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk for a comp subscription. Before we get to Laxmi, I have a quick favour to ask you. If you enjoy this episode, I would really appreciate it if you could support me by rating and reviewing in your podcast player, and maybe even sharing with a friend. It makes a huge difference to a new podcast. You can find a full transcript of this episode over on substack again at laurathomas.substack.com. And I would really love it if you wanted to leave a comment over there to let us know what you thought of this conversation and to keep the conversation going. I'll also put some pictures of Laxmi's incredible art in there so you can take a look at how stunning it is. Oh, and if you are listening to this in the Don't Salt My Game feed, then please don't forget to hop over and subscribe in the Can I Have Another Snack? feed. Okay, here's my conversation with LaxmiLaura Thomas  So Laxmi, we start each conversation with the same question, which is, who or what are you nourishing right now?Laxmi Hussain  I am nourishing, actually, you know what, this summer I nourish myself and I also nourish my family. But in general, even though the kids are on summer holidays, it's more about me resetting, taking a break and taking stock of what I've been doing. The summer is generally slower for me workwise and so I try to fill my cup.Laura Thomas  So you're kind of taking a beat from the artist world, artist life and stepping back into mum life.Laxmi Hussain  Yeah and life and you know, I think I've inherited this from my mom. But I love my children and I love being with my family so much that just being with them and doing things that make them happy and you know, just being in that space with them. It's what makes my summer. And I really love it. And I consciously try not to work during the summer, I know it is a long break and not many people, it's quite a privileged thing to say that I can take six weeks off. But I do pop in and nourish my, my plant babies, I've got forest here. But I try to step away. And even though I'm physically not working, my mind never stops. So I do think it is a good time to, it's very useful for me, because then I come back in September, and I feel reinvigorated. I have new energy. And all those ideas have not stopped working in my brain, and I do write things down or sketch things down in a notebook. But I feel without it, my cycle wouldn't, wouldn't quite work.Laura Thomas  So it's kind of, I hear what you're saying, that like, you have this creative mind. So you can never fully stop, you can't turn that off. But it sounds as though there's something in the kind of like stepping back and just being fully immersed with your kids that almost allows you to take that step forward again in September when the kind of, I sometimes think of September as like a new year. Instead of like January, it's like this reset moment in the year, isn't it?Laxmi Hussain  Absolutely. And January, for me, is usually one of my busiest times, because it's sort of, people are starting new projects, people feel reinvigorated then, but then they approach people then so I'm so busy that I forget that it's a new year. And all of my new year feels like September. I've never really thought about that before. But also, maybe it's also from a vain perspective, but my birthday's right in the beginning of September. I feel like it's a new year, new me as well. And it starts with the celebrations.Laura Thomas  That Virgo season energy I hear you. I'm a Leo Virgo cusp. So I feel you on that. I was really struck by what you said, which shouldn't at all be radical, but it kind of feels a little subversive, which is that you enjoy being with your children. And I'm just, there's such, and I get it right like I get it being a parent being a mother is fucking hard. And it's relentless. And especially with the like the lack of social support, the lack of infrastructure, the lack of childcare, like all of those things. And at the same time to just hear someone sort of unapologetically say, I enjoy nourishing my kids and spending time with them. And it kind of made my mind go straight to the title of your newest, I think it's your latest at least art drop because, is that the right art world lingo, I'm out of my depth here, but it's called like ‘Glue', right?Laxmi Hussain  A couple of the pieces are but the actual collections called ‘Inseparable'.Laura Thomas  Oh, wow even more like poignant. Laxmi Hussain  Basically what it is, is it's an ode to the last two years of my life. It's just over two years now, because my youngest, Eden, was born in June. And I've had two different challenges from well, several different challenges. But the two that stand out the most since one, my mother died and two, when when my other children were younger, we were in different locations in London, we just seemed to have more hands. But my mom was the biggest hand in raising my older children and, and also my dad, actually, but now my dad has deteriorated due to Parkinson's, so that he hasn't been able to help us with childcare for at least three, four years. So that had a massive impact on our sort of our parenthood functioning and also we had COVID which meant that you know, even if someone wanted to help, they couldn't. So Eden has literally spent almost every day every working day in the studio with me unless I've had something where it really cannot have him around. And you know, I've been able to in the last six months to have help from family friends, but my mum would do the school pickup she would, especially when my daughter was in and out of nursery, because that's kind of, you know, when they start with half days and that kind of thing. And I was working a full time job at the time. So it was much harder for me to just pick up and leave, because you've got an employer to answer to. And, you know, my previous job, they were amazing, but you just can't, whereas now I can just, you know, I work around the school runs and all of that, but literally, Eden is here every day, and I wouldn't have been able to do that do the last child without, without this flexibility. And that's what this collection is about, like, he has been stuck to me for so long. And, you know, sometimes we love each other, sometimes we are throwing tantrums. And he's not the only one throwing tantrums. And, you know, I've just had to adapt to that kind of, I've got maybe an hour some days, sometimes I have four, you know, it's something that I've adapted to, but for some reason, I'm really good at it. And I love him being here. And I'm really a bit anxious or sad about him shortly going to nursery and leaving me. Because I wonder if he is also part of the reason that I paint the way that I do? And how will my mind change? How will my thoughts change? So in a way, he's nourished my entire process over the last couple of years.Laura Thomas  And so just for context, because people can't see you, but you're, you're in your studio right now, as we're speaking. And so what you're saying is that your baby and toddler have been coming to literally to your art studio with you every day, and you've been making literally making art with, like, I can't even wash the dishes with my toddler around, like, I can't even piss without my toddler attached to my leg. I'm not joking.Laxmi Hussain  I mean, you know what, it's made us so, I didn't have this much closeness with the other two, because from birth, they got used to being separated from me. You know, even if it was an hour or half a day, or my mom was always there, you know, I remember when Zayn was born, Zayn is my eldest. And I had the baby blues at the two week point, which I think is quite a normal peak trough. And I was looking at him and sobbing my eyes out. And I didn't know why. And I called my mom. And she was there in like, 15 minutes. So she was like, just give me the baby, you're crying all over him.Laura Thomas  Because that's the issue. You're making the baby wet.Laxmi Hussain  I just missed that. But you know, I don't, I don't have that this time around. So in some crazy way, I've made it work. And I'm so grateful for it. But also, it has been hard.Laura Thomas  I'm just hearing such a like, there's like there's a tension or a conflict or something that like, there's something about this particular baby, because of the pandemic and because of the loss of your mum, that, you know, it's been harder in a lot of ways. But then there's this closeness, this bond that has this sort of this, I don't wanna say silver lining, but you know what I mean, like, an unexpected kind of gift that you have, and I just, this is where I'm gonna cry. But I just, I feel, and this is not at all why you need to make your art for me to feel validated and seen, but I feel so seen in those pieces in particular that you were talking about, in terms of, because we have, we have very little support, we've had very little support throughout the pandemic. And my toddler didn't start nursery until he was a bit older. And even then it was like, you know, the part time thing and, and he was, he's a very attached baby, very attached, and there's just something about seeing your work that just felt like holding a mirror up to our experiences and just like, you know, him literally physically being constantly attached to me, to my boob. And we've just gone through, I kind of felt like that was easing off. But then we've just had a spate of, what's it called, gastroenteritis, and he has, again, been attached to me. Like a newborn. I forgot how relentless it was. But yeah, there's just, I don't know, I wonder if you could speak a bit more to just like, being a body and having, you know, having to give so much of yourself to another body, another person, another, you know, your child.Laxmi Hussain  I think the only way I can describe this is when I started painting, including Eden in my work, my agent, Georgia Spray who represents me as part of Partnership Editions, she said that she was looking at the paintings, she was like, they're so beautiful, it's like the babies are a jigsaw piece of yourself. And when you paint them together, it's like they fit together. And that's what I'm trying to depict is I've never, not that I've never seen, but it's just I don't see, very often, artwork depicting motherhood in a realistic way, in ways that it's awkward, it's beautiful. It's glued together all the time. And, you know, my baby was born in summer, that's like hot, sticky, sweaty, stuck to your clammy body. And it's so like, I say, I don't swear, but it's so fucking hard. But it's also so incredible that you can do this. And if you are able to do this, and you, you know, mentally and physically, you like to do it. It's just, wow, we are incredible people. Like, I'm not just talking like motherhood, yes, is very, very hard. But also, there are incredible other parents out there who do the same, and know what it's like to struggle in this way. And still really, really love it like, and that's why I'm unapologetic about the fact that I just really, really love my kids, they are everything to me. And you know, sometimes my friends don't hear from me, but it's because I'm with my kids. And no one is ever going to stand in front of them, because they're incredible beings. And they have so, now my older kids are there, they, you know, their minds just want to, they're like mops, like sponges, they want, they ask all the most ridiculous questions. And sometimes I'm like "ahh", but I don't think my mind has been this stimulated by all of the things that are going on all the time in my crazy household and been so in love.Laura Thomas  That's, I mean, there's, I was just thinking about this, this narrative that is so prominent, and I think it's because it is true, or it can be true, from the perspective that oftentimes, women literally pay for having children, they get made redundant, they don't get promoted, they you know, all of the things, right? There's this real narrative that having a child, yeah, is a career killer. And there are you know, there's a reality to that, you know, having to put your career on hold for maternity leave. And all of the other things, you know, the gender pay gap, and on, all of the things. And what I've heard you say is that becoming a mother becoming a parent was kind of a turning point for you and your creativity. And this is not something you've said in this interview. Yeah, I heard you say that it's when you really started doing art more, right?Laxmi Hussain  Yeah, but I agree with you, all of those things are very, very true. And I have ticked every single one of those boxes, redundancy, gender pay gaps, not being promoted the career that I thought that I wanted, or that I thought that I had before I had my children all stopped. You know, it never grew anymore when I had them. And then I found jobs that weren't as fulfilling and I always felt like if I just didn't have kids, maybe I would have gotten so much further but you know, I don't know that. And I don't know if that would have led me to where I am today. But I started drawing again, because I loved drawing with my eldest. And then I started to remember how much I loved drawing and painting. And I've done it my entire life. Like since I was so tiny. And I just never really thought it was a job, or, you know, a career. And it was only until I had them that I felt brave enough that I've done the most, the hardest thing I ever feel is I'm ever going to have to do apart from, you know, watching my mum die, that if I can do that, and I'm still here, and I'm still doing it, and I'm still living and breathing, then why can't I be an artist which comes so naturally to me, I should just be able to do that without having to worry about all of the other things. But the thing is, what I found really hard. And what I feel there's no infrastructure for is if you choose to then go and get your job or your career for yourself, and you have kids, it's so hard. I've worked two jobs, sometimes three jobs around the clock, just so that I could start to believe that this dream that I had, could become my full time. And it took me six years with it as a passion project, to then have my third child and be like I've worked through, I went back to work when he was like two months old. And I was bringing him to the studio when he was three months old. And you know, I would work and then every half an hour I was breastfeeding him and then I put them in the Moses basket. And then I would work for five minutes and then start the whole thing again. And there is no support for that. Like, why is there no support if I choose to go and get my career for myself? Why, you know, unless I am going back to work full time, after two weeks of having my baby, which I know some people have to do. Why do we have to do that? Like it took my body. My body is still recovering. And it's over two years. And I don't understand why it's so difficult. There's no finances, there's no childcare. I still can't get childcare because technically, I'm not entitled to it. And I'm not even earning. Like, I want to say that I'm doing really well. But I'm not earning enough to afford childcare and everything that we need as a family.Laura Thomas  Yeah hard. Same. And, you know, even if you're freelance, what is it like less than 600 pounds a month, I think for like statutory, it's like, it's laughable how low money.Laxmi Hussain  And then when we get to like, when it's past the six month point, it's something like it's even less isn't it? I was like, did I get paid this month?Laura Thomas  Yeah, all of the like, I mean, yeah. We could probably go down a real political rabbit hole in terms of like the infrastructure and what's all the things that women in particular have to sacrifice that is probably just not even, you know, registering on the radar for most men who do whatever the fuck they like. But so just bringing it back to..oh there's so many like, like delicious little offshoots that I want to, to go down with you. Let's talk a little bit about bodies because that is the main focus of your work. And again, a quote that I heard you say once was that you wanted other people to see their bodies as I see mine. I don't know if you remember saying that but you did. And then, and something else that you said was that after having a baby you don't have time to catch up with your body?Laxmi Hussain  You don't. You really don't. Like things are going at lightning speed. I felt like one minute the baby is like you know, can fit in the palm of your hand and the next minute they're like so huge. But also I feel like the first few months as well, your body is not really yours. It's you know, especially if you're breastfeeding as well. You're giving everything to nourish your baby. And also, I don't know if this is just because I've heard so many people say the same thing, but I'm not even, having had Eden at this age is not particularly young, but in our society now because women are having children much later, I was treated as a very young mother. And perhaps also because I've got a bit of a baby face. A lot of the healthcare professionals treated me as if I was a first time mother, they just assumed that I was a first time mother. And even if I would say, Look, this is my third, they didn't seem to believe me. And I was constantly saying, Look, this is normal. Like there was a lot of stress at the beginning of his birth, because he was very, very small. He was in the ninth percentile, but he was born 13 days late. So it's 41 weeks and six days, but obviously most babies are, gestation is 40 weeks. And because he was so small, his birth weight was seven pounds, but for his gestation that put him in the ninth percentile. And then obviously, this is quite common in breastfeeding babies, that they lose at least 10%. He happened to lose 11%. And everyone just went into meltdown, I was sent to A&E. And all of this crazy, crazy stuff, they were stressing me out beyond belief, like you're not feeding him enough, you need to pump around the clock and give him the extra pump and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I literally spent the first two weeks just crying my eyes out, because everyone was telling me I wasn't doing a great job. And I've always had a lot of milk, I'm very fortunate to have had quite a lot of milk and he didn't look malnourished, he was feeding well. And I just thought he was fine. And my instincts were telling me everything's fine. And nobody believed me. And so it took me much longer to recover from that, like he, the trauma of that was quite, it was quite a lot. I'm a very laid back person. But when everyone was telling me that I was wrong, and I was telling everyone that I feel he's fine. And nobody believed me. It just felt so much more difficult. And everyone was like, you're not a third time mom, I was like, yes, I am -- those are my other children!Laura Thomas  I'm so sorry to hear that this was your experience. But I am not at all surprised that it was, you know, working in this field and understanding, you know, the sort of rationale behind what the professionals were thinking. But also you know, like very much kind of hearing what you're saying, as a mother, like, you were like, I can see my baby, I can see that they're doing well. I can tell that they're drinking. And this is my, you know, why is no one trusting my instincts? Why am I being gaslit? Left, right and centre. And I hear it so often from parents that I've worked with where this has been, you know, this is something that has happened early on, in their feeding experiences where they've been told to pump or where they've been told to give top up feeds with formula or, you know, all of the things. I've even heard people being told that they need to wean their babies early, all of these things that cause so much stress and so much anxiety. And really, what I'm hearing you say is that, that that really prolonged that healing process for you. That that really kind of like, that trauma was in you. And, you know, continued way beyond the point that you know, it might not have otherwise. And I was also thinking that, you know, if this wasn't your third baby,  if this is your first child and this was happening, and you hadn't had that, all those experiences to draw on, then what? You know?Laxmi Hussain  I mean, there are so many things we don't talk about that happened to our bodies post birth, that I've only learned through having children, but nobody told me these things like nobody shared this. And even when my sister in law was having her first baby, she was like, Is this normal? Is that normal? No one's told me this and I was just like, rather than, you know, share only the niceties and hide all of the stuff that nobody wants to talk about. I was like this happened to me. And this happened to me. And you know, there were things like with the first birth I tore and for weeks, I couldn't squat. And nobody says stuff like this like. You know, because I chose to breastfeed all three of my kids. And I persevered. I had bleeding nipples. I had, I was leaking all the time. And nobody ever says this. Like you know, when your boobs turn rock hard. Literally like, I don't know, it's like concrete.Laura Thomas  Yeah. I remember.Laxmi Hussain  The first time that happened to me, I was like "what?". What is going on? I thought I was going to, I thought something had happened. And I panicked. Nobody ever told me that this happens.Laura Thomas  Yeah, yeah. I think because everything around birth and motherhood, especially, like, in parenthood, especially in those early days is so hidden, it's so concealed. Like, you were saying, like, you know, we see the cute baby all bundled up, but then you don't see the mother bleeding for at least six weeks afterwards. And then they're telling you Okay, well, six weeks, you can start exercising again, or having sex or whatever it is. And you're like, what I'm bleeding?Laxmi Hussain  Yeah, the whole thing around sex. And it's like, now you can have sex. And I was just like, I know, for you it was six weeks ago, but for me, it was like two seconds ago. There is nothing happening down there.Laura Thomas  Yeah, yeah. Oh, it's so, it's so messy. And there's I mean, for me, like, I'm still dealing. So my baby was born, I think just a month before your last one. So May 2020. Yeah, so they're really similar in age. And I'm still dealing with pelvic girdle pain, like they were like, oh, yeah, just as soon as as soon as the baby's born, you'll be fine. Two years later, I'm like, this is not okay? I am not fine. But like, the entire, you know, NHS Trust can't figure out what to do with me. So they're just washing their hands of it. But this is a separate podcast for a separate time. But yeah, sorry, what were you going to say?Laxmi Hussain  No, I was gonna say I had really bad reflux with my eldest. And I think it's because they all had so much hair. They were literally born like wolves, all three of them. And they still had their sort of downy fluff all over their shoulders and back. But Zayn was born with shoulder length hair.Laura Thomas  Wow. Did it all stay in or did it fall out and grow back in?Laxmi Hussain  It all stayed in. It thinned when he was about six months, you know, from the seeping and stuff like that. And then it, you know, he's got incredible hair. But yeah, he was born with like shoulder length hair, his sideburns were like literally down to his jaw. And I had really, really bad reflux. And everyone was like, yeah, when he's born, it will go. And I've still, you know, sometimes there are foods that really trigger it. And it's mostly dairy now, and I never had a dairy issue before, and I will have really intense reflux, and everyone just thinks that I'm sitting around belching. It's from having my babies.Laura Thomas  Yeah, I think, you think that or I guess at least the narrative is that, you know, when you're pregnant, there are all these pregnancy induced changes to your body. And you kind of get the impression that that's like, contained to those nine, nine or whatever so months, but then nobody talks about kind of like the aftermath. Like they talk about it in terms of obviously diet culture talks about it in terms of like the size and shape of your body and how you have to like manipulate that back. But we don't talk about like the the internal changes, not just I think in terms of like, I think pain is a big one things that you're talking about reflux, but also I think a lot about just like the trauma that gets stored in our bodies as well, like you were talking about with breastfeeding. We also had a lot of issues with breastfeeding. Avery was in the NICU for almost two weeks when he was born, so we then had, like, this knock on effect on breastfeeding and that was really awful. And that all kind of just lives with you. Doesn't it? And we don't talk about that.Laxmi Hussain  You know, when you have other children, everyone's like, well, you breastfed before, why can't you do it again, and that's not the case. So like, every single time, I had cracked nipples, bleeding nipples. Every single time, I had the milk coming in issue. And my milk took a lot of time, a long time to come in, like, normally, it'd be around seven or 10 days. And that's why all of my babies lost so much birth weight. Whereas, you know, other mums that I've known, their milk had already come in when they were pregnant, you know, they had milk. I didn't. And everyone just assumes if you've done it before, it's like riding a bicycle. It's not. Every child is different. Every one, I mean, even now, if my kids were sweets, they'd all be the complete opposite sweets, none of them would even look related to each other.Laura Thomas  Just a bag of pick-and-mix. And, yeah, I mean, I've only got the one kid, but I can't imagine how you know, it's that it's that steep learning curve every single time. Breastfeeding is probably the single hardest thing that I've had to do. Not “had” to do, I don't have to do it. I'm fortunate that I had a choice, which not everyone does. But you know, it took so much for me. And I was, you know, privileged to have the resources to be able to get a lactation consultant, because nobody in the NHS was any fucking use. Well, they were. That's not fair. There were people that were helpful, but there were equally people who were very, very unhelpful.Laxmi Hussain  Also don't have the resources, like you need more than 15 minutes with someone saying, Well, this is what's going to happen. And I remember specifically with my second she had problems latching and they were like, just hold her like this. And then by the time they'd gone away, I was like I forgot what they said. You're also in that buzz of a new baby, so much going on. So sleep deprived. Mentally, also, you change so much.Laura Thomas  I had pictures and videos, and I still couldn't figure it out after they left. I want to completely change topics here.You know, something that you said off mic before we started recording was that before I approached you for this podcast, you hadn't really thought about food in relation to your work. And I'm really curious to hear what kind of threads you're pulling on having, you know, thought about it now.Laxmi Hussain  I hadn't thought about it in relation to my work. But then I was like, it's so obvious that they go hand in hand because body image is related to is also so related to how much we eat and how we nourish ourselves. And there is so much stigma on you know, whether we're eating the right thing or and then how that directly results in what you look like and often can be a punishable act. And I think that's kind of what I've been, I don't know why I never thought about it before. But also, the way that I was raised, my parents were cooks. And it's part of who I am. And often I do share on my Instagrams, like when I'm on my Instagrams, sorry,Laura Thomas  The InstagramsLaxmi Hussain  And I do share on Instagram when I'm having time off like Christmas or in the summer and I love to cook. I really love to cook and, not just cook, I like to bake. I like to try things like that I've never tried before. Yesterday, I picked, like I've got two Mirabelle plum trees in the back garden. And they're really, really big and every year the plums grow and they smell incredible. And I never know what to do with them so I made a chilli tomato jam earlier in the year and it was so good. And I was thinking maybe I could adapt that for the plums because I think we don't have the correct weather here for the plums to be like they are in France but they are quite sour, quite tart. So you can eat a few and I do have quite a savoury palate but you can eat a few, but after a while, it's just too much. So I thought I'd make this jam. And that's kind of like how I think about things like I think about ingredients and I want to know how to cook them. And also growing up my parents had, I've just always been into food. Like my parents had a corner shop, very sort of London traditional corner shop, where you walk in and it's all the sweets and the chocolates, you know, by the counter. And then at the back, traditionally, I want to say like, because I grew up and I was born in London, you could go to the back and you could get a cup of tea in those polystyrene sort of cups. You know, those things are so rare now, but it's real nostalgia for me. And you know, back then they were like, 50p for a cup of tea. So my dad's from India, my mum was from the Philippines. And my dad thought, why don't I do some sort of food thing. And he had those kinds of display fridges that you can get at the butchers or at cafes. And he stacked them up with curries. And when he met my mom, he was already doing this and, you know, making and selling his curries. But they kind of joined forces and it became their family business. My mom is an incredible, was an incredible cook. And, you know, they kind of made it sort of Filipino inspired, Indian inspired, they had lots and lots of curries, my dad was vegetarian growing up, but then they because my mom kind of convinced him to try meat, they adapted a lot, so like became very, very varied. But they made incredible curries together. And you used to be able to like, to go to the back of the shop, get a cup of tea and, and my mom would also make incredible sandwiches. But rather than just picking up a traditional sarnie and a cup of tea, you could get a curry.Laxmi Hussain  Who would come into the shop, like who were their patrons?Laxmi Hussain  They were all locals. It was in St. John's Wood, which is where I was born. And that sounds very privileged. But back then it was very much sort of like, you know, it was very sort of, it didn't feel like that growing up. Now you go there, and I couldn't even afford a one bedroom flat there. But it was very sort of how I felt growing up in London, most people, most Londoners would remember, you know, 30-40 years ago. And, yeahLaura Thomas  It's so lovely to hear about people's food histories, I suppose. And kind of what they were immersed in growing up. And I guess what I'm sitting with this is this question of you know what, given that you were so immersed in food, and it sounds like, you didn't explicitly say this, but I get the feeling that your parents are like feeders, right? Like they take pride and pleasure in feeding people. And I'm wondering, you know, with this all around you what has been your relationship with your appetite? And has that changed over the years?Laxmi Hussain  Absolutely. I have always been a very big foodie. My mum said that when she was pregnant, all she wanted to eat was fruit. And I think that that is quite, that is a characteristic of mine like I will eat every fruit under the sun and I will forgo dinner or you know lunch and happily replace that with a banquet of fruit but it's just, it's just what I love. Like I had peaches for breakfast, but I will try every single, everything that's in the season I'm there. And that's kind of indicative of what my palate is like. I like things that are very fresh and I will try everything. But when I was growing up, I was more aware of things that smelled. And I think also, like I watched a programme recently, coming from an Asian background there was a lot more stigma growing up in a Western country with smells and that kind of thing with our types of food and the kind of culture or foods that I grew up with. And I very much grew up with a Filipino palate. My mom taught me all about our culture, we visited so often and I try to still visit but it's much harder to get there now, whereas I've never set foot in India. But my dad did teach me a bit about cooking just not, it's not natural to me, because I can't, I've not been around enough of the culture, for me to say yes, it needs a bit of that spice or whatever. Whereas with Filipino cooking, I know the recipes, or I know how to tweak it based on the taste. Whereas if you asked me to make a curry, I wouldn't know how to tweak it if it went wrong. It's like, that's kind of like, you know, you have a palette that you're able to adjust quite easily. And my natural is from Filipino culture. It's more sort of Eastern Asian type of foods. So yeah.Laura Thomas  What I was kind of hearing you say, or I guess what I was thinking about there is just, again, this tension of you being really strongly tuned into your Filipino identity. And at the same time, it sounds as though at least while you're growing up, and I don't know if things feel different to you now, but that there was a stigma associated with that, you know, that type of food, that cuisine.Laxmi Hussain  Absolutely, like you wouldn't, especially with a curry, you wouldn't walk up to school with a curry in a pack lunch. Whereas if, if it were now I'd be like, oh, yeah, you know, you want some? Like, whereas before I would have, I would have hidden it. And I remember once bringing something to lunch, when I was at primary school, and I can't remember what it was, but feeling quite embarrassed about what the contents of my packed lunch were. Because it wasn't like a sandwich. And then I remember after that, only bringing sandwiches if I had packed lunch, and back then you know, you could choose quite easily. Like, if I wanted to rock up today with a pack lunch, I could. Whereas today, you've got to, you've got to say, Oh, my child's gonna have packed lunch this week. Whereas then, you know, your child could pretty much say, Can I have a packed lunch today? And I Yeah, remember, it was either school dinners, or I'd make mum make me a sandwich, rather than bring in any of our home cooked foods. But now I'd be like, well you want to try some?Laura Thomas  Yeah, what do your kids do for lunches?Laxmi Hussain  They have school lunch, just because I can't get my head around the fact that, just because they're so affordable, that I wouldn't be able to make a cheaper lunch.Laura Thomas  Right, there's a convenience there as well. But they're not getting sent with a curry to school.Laxmi Hussain  No but, they go to school in quite, it's actually very diverse. We've got a lot of, we live, Wembley has a very large South Asian community. So for example, their food, their school doesn't have, all of their meat is halal, for example, which I thought was quite, quite cool, because we're a Muslim family. So that just makes that so much easier. And also, because of that, they don't serve any pork. So that also then means I don't have to watch. You know, I don't need to make sure that that's not what is going to happen at school. Although to be honest, they think it might slip into their food at some point in their lives. But it's just things like that, like their school is well thought out, like they will have if there is a specific week that celebrates a culture or or an festival or something, they will tailor the menu to, so like during Eid, I think they had a more sort of Muslim based menu. And then they do things like they will change the menu during Chinese New Year. And other events like they've, they often send us an email saying, Look, this is what's going, this is what's on the menu this week for this cultural event. And I think it's really quite nice and forward thinking for a school.Laura ThomasSo they're really celebrating different cultures through the food that they have on offer.Laxmi Hussain  Yeah, and even on a day to day basis, like the week is quite varied. So the children, the kids do tell me that they've had different experiences, which is quite nice.Laura Thomas  Yeah, it's great that they're being exposed to things which again, sounds very different from your upbringing where you felt like you had to kind of hide your cultural foods and bring a sandwich in. I want to again, just as you're thinking about your kids, and I want to bring it a little bit back to your, your artwork as well. I'm wondering what you hope to teach your children through your depictions of bodies?Laxmi Hussain  I think it's...Laura Thomas  Why do you laugh? Why do you laugh at my question?Laxmi Hussain  I think it's funny because the kids find it funny, I guess. Because when they look at nude naked bodies, kids find it funny, don't they? Like they find bums funny. And that's why I laugh.Laura Thomas  Bums are funny, there's a bum just sitting on your shoulder. Just perched on your shoulder.Laxmi Hussain  But, do you know, well, they've been coming to the studio with me, even my older kids for so long. And I'm never, I've never been embarrassed or felt like I've needed to cover up anything in here. Or change the way that I am when I'm in the studio, they're very aware of what my work is about. And they even talk about it at school. And, you know, they're quite open about it, especially my daughter. That's what I want to share with them, that there's nothing to be embarrassed about, regardless of what our bodies look like. And my mom didn't explicitly share this with me. But there is a really beautiful moment, well moments that my mom did share with me. Like she wasn't crude, but she also was like, quite proper, like she you know, if you were sitting in a particular way, and your pants were on show, like shut your legs. I think that's also like her time, that was quite normal. Whereas I think that although she was like that in public, I learned everything about the way that I feel about my body through my mom. So for example, that's the moment that I think about the most is that my mom would take a long bath on the weekend. And it usually was like, you know, brunch ish time like mid morning. And she went on a trip to the Philippines, when we were young, she found this perfectly round ovalish stone. And it wasn't pumice. But it was so smooth and had like, a porous texture to it, that it was the perfect stone for using as a pumice, like to rub your back and get rid of all that dead skin. And every time she'd have a long bath, she called me, like she'd leave the bathroom door open. And she called me and said, “Could you just scrub my back?” And, you know, like, that, never felt like an embarrassing moment for her. And she was very open about her body. In that short moment of time, I felt very comfortable that her body was normal. And I think although I do it much more explicitly, not explicit in the rude sense of the word, but much more openly, yes, that I hope that's the same message my children will understand. And not just for my daughter, but for my sons, too, that women's bodies aren't a particular shape or size or height, or, you know, they're so different. And I want them to know that that's normal. Because it has to, we have to feel that way. Like, I know that I probably won't change it hugely in my lifetime. But if I can change it for them, then I think that's a big deal. And hopefully, that will carry on forward. Laura Thomas  Yeah. So you're hoping to just put a little kink in that narrative. That women's bodies should look a certain way you're trying to disrupt this idea in your kids and instil this sense that that bodies come in all shapes and sizes,Laxmi Hussain  Yeah, exactly. And I already know from dressing my daughter, how it starts from so early on that we're just pushed as a society to normalise something that isn't true. And so the only way I can describe this is my daughter, she's much taller for her age. And also, she still has that roundness of her tummy that, you know, really young children have. And so it can be really difficult to find trousers for her. But just to put this into context, she's eight years old. And in order to find something that fits her waist, I need to go up to like 12, 13, sometimes even 14 years old. And when I asked others, and this is mostly High Street brands, and I've tried like, you know, shopping vintage or but vintage is worse, because it was much worse earlier. And I've tried. And actually, the only thing that seems to work is either hand me downs from the boy from my, from my eldest son or buying her boys trousers, and jeans. Otherwise, she's just in dresses all day long, which suits her fine because she loves dresses, but at the same time, they're not always practical.Laura Thomas  Sure, yeah.Laxmi Hussain  It's just, So when we've bought her, the thing that troubles me the most is having been a larger child, when I was young, up until I was a teenager, and always being told that I was overweight, and that I needed to lose weight, and then my clothes should fit better. And I would look so much nicer, I have such a pretty face, I would look so much nicer if I was just skinny. That I don't want her to feel that because I remember how damaging that was, and how, you know, even when I look back at photos and think that I actually looked normal, how I feel I looked normal as a kid, how I didn't feel normal. And I can remember specific outfits from photos, how awful I felt in them. And how conscious I was aware and how you know, how conscious I was of, you know, how they didn't fit properly. And I don't want her to feel that. But that's how difficult it is to even find clothes for her that, you know, I just took her on a shopping trip. And we tried on so many outfits, we were out for like, five, six hours. And we bought two pieces of clothing. Because nothing else fits.Laura Thomas  Yeah, that's so hard. And I think, you know, as a parent, even if you are normalising for your child that, you know, we can size up, you know that the age sizes are just like a guide. They're not, you know, they don't tell us anything about our bodies, and you can pick the size that fits you, they are still going to be on some level, Because we live in diet culture and a world that is fat phobic that there is something wrong with their bodies. And so it's a real it's a real, yeah, a real struggle, if there's a kind of a disconnect between their chronological age and the age of the clothes that they're wearing. And you've reminded me and I can't remember the name of this company, but there is a company in the UK that are making clothes, I want to say that are for those exact kids, where they have bodies that don't, you know, some match some sort of arbitrary ideal, that, you know, you know, was probably based on a pattern from you know, like, like you were saying some kid from the 60s that just doesn't reflect how bodies have changed and also like the diversity in bodies, like the population of the UK is very different now than it was back then. And our bodies have changed and will continue to change and, and our clothing needs to kind of catch up with that, not vice versa. (NOTE: the brand I was thinking of is Alpha and Indigo)Laxmi Hussain  Absolutely. It's very upsetting for me, actually, I find it very triggering. And I find myself trying to over protect her from that feeling because I know that I felt it. And I know how much I hated it. And there's sometimes I'll look back at a photo and I know I mentioned this earlier but think about how all I was focused on that day. And I think one of the photos I'm like, eight years old, probably, you know her age now and how I can't remember past that day, what I did, except for the fact that I hated what I was wearing, because it didn't fit me. And I never want her. I know that that's unrealistic for me to say, but I don't want that. And if it's not for her, then we need to fix it so that it's not for generations to come. And it dumbfounds me that we haven't fixed it already.Laura Thomas  Yeah, I know. It's, I've got similar memories of my, my own childhood of, you know, being told that Oh, well. The skirt doesn't fit. I remember a school uniform once, and the skirt was kind of, you know when the skirt is too small for you. It comes up at the back. It kind of looks shorter at the back. And it's like really weird. But I remember that being my fault. Not the fault of the skirt. And I'm like, now, I think we have the language and the understanding a bit more. And not everyone is, you know, versed in this, but we have the tools more so to be able to point to the systems absolutely are the problem. You know, versus the individual. And we can externalise that shame we can externalise that blame, rather than holding on so tightly to it as probably you and I did growing up, for children, regardless of their gender. You know, they all need to learn that lesson that their bodies are not the problem.Laxmi Hussain  Yes, absolutely.Laura Thomas  But it's tough. It's so hard. And it's just one, it's just one more thing that as parents that we have to kind of wrestle with and have to figure out how, how we're going to approach it. And parenting is hard enough. It is. I mean, my friend was messaging me the other day, and was like, Oh, I'm worried that my, my daughter's gonna get bullied about X, Y, and Zed. And her daughter is the same age as mine, they're two. And I'm like, Oh, God, we have to worry about bullying. Laxmi Hussain  Yeah and I think also something that's bothering me really recently is how much we gender young young children, like, that should be the age where they're growing up has nothing to do with gender. And, you know, I've tried to raise my children in quite a gender neutral environment, because it shouldn't dictate how we go and reach for things in life. And yes, obviously, we are going to come up with challenges, like all of the things that we detailed in motherhood and how women have such a disproportionate sort of treatment and experience of motherhood, but of parenthood. But I feel like this is the age where they need to be able to experience everything, regardless of who they are, like, you know, they should be able to do whatever they want, and experience it without having to experience it through gender. But for example, my youngest is two and he has long, long, long hair, it's almost down to his bum. Everyone is like, Oh, look at that pretty girl. Oh, she shouldn't be climbing up like that, or she's gonna hurt her legs. I'm just like, he's, it doesn't matter that he's a boy or a girl. Just because he's got long hair doesn't mean that long hair automatically means girl. And also, why can't boys have long hair? And also, why does it matter what he's doing? If he was a girl, and he wanted to climb up Mount Everest or obviously not, not at two years old, but why does it matter?Laura Thomas  I'm, you know, hard agree. I am right there with you with a kid that I am doing my best to, you know, not put into any particular box, but that the world around me is, you know, determined to put into a box and yeah, it's the it's the constant kind of, I guess that question that you were kind of coming up against before is is wondering, you know how much overcorrecting do you do, like you're saying with the body image piece, versus giving them all the tools. And then trusting them? You've got it. Like, I mean, you've been a parent for longer than I have so you tell me if you know of a better way, but like this is where I'm at with it.Laxmi Hussain  I think the gender thing affects me the most, because it's more like, I think, especially when it comes down to, boy means strong, and therefore your body is stronger and can deal with more things. And that's what I have a problem with because, especially with the way that I've had to go after my career, I think that shows, I'm not trying to blow my own horn here, but I've worked so hard physically and mentally. And I think that shows great strength, as well as raising my kids during the same time to nourish both of us, you know, so that I can do what I want. I've always dreamed I've wanted to do and also hopefully show them that they can dream for whatever they want. I think we really need to re-question what we deem as strength and why it's so appropriate that people are so strong and not vulnerable. And why vulnerability is a weakness. And I hope that showing, I think my recent mural in Wembley was something that I will always really be so passionate about in that my mural shows softness and femininity of the female form. But it's stuck in the most stark concrete jungle, which is traditionally home to football. And I think that is a win for me. And I hope it's a little bit of a win for that message that the two are so connected, that we need to start allowing those boundaries to blur and to become one. Laura Thomas  Yeah, yeah, I think anytime we're stuck in binaries, that's when we run into big problems. Yeah. And that mural is so gorgeous. I hope I can get down there and see it at some point in real life. But I'm gonna link to it in the show notes so that people can see the video that you've made of it, because it really is so impressive. And I'm so like, yeah, it just makes me so happy that that's just like out there in the world for people to stumble across and see because, again, those forms and figures and that softness, and that vulnerability is usually hidden away. So like it being right there in your face is so exciting to me.Laxmi Hussain  I think it was incredible. I felt it even more poignant, even though it didn't relate directly. But this year with the women's Euro, I felt it's the first time that I've actually felt that there was light shone on women's football, and I'm not, I don't follow football. But I felt really proud of the fact that they, you know, one that they won. And two that they were actually being shouted about and to also have recently painted a mural where they won that game. And to celebrate women's football felt really, really cool.Laura Thomas  Okay, well, I'm from Scotland, so I can't comment on that. But I hear exactly what you're saying. So Laxmi, at the end of every episode, my guests and I share something that they've been snacking on, which can be a book, it can be a movie, a podcast, it can be a literal snack, it could be anything you want. So what do you have for us?Laxmi Hussain  Well, I was thinking about this. And originally, I was going to talk about the fact that I'm feeling like enjoying the summer and regenerating my energy. But actually, a couple of days ago, I picked up a book on my trip to Ramsgate from a really good friend who's just opened a bookshop there. And it's called Elena Knows and it's a translation. She lives in, I want to say Buenos Aires, but I can't remember now but it's really beautiful. I'm already like seven chapters in but it's about a woman and it relates to me because my dad's got Parkinson's, and it's about an older woman who's got Parkinson's. And she's talking about a daughter that she's just lost. And I haven't really got right into the story. But what was really interesting to me is how much she's described about her every day, and how Parkinson's affects her. And it's been really interesting because my dad hasn't talked about how his Parkinson's affects him at all. And I know it sounds like a bit of a downer, but I really love learning about things, especially when it comes to you know, how people can feel, and I, and because I'm my dad's main carer, I think that it will really impact how I then relay and care back to him. And I think it's important that we learn, we still learn hard things because they're, they're how we then address and adapt and, you know, hopefully grow from them or, you know, move, not necessarily move past them. Because, you know, especially when it comes to things like grief, you don't move past it, but you, the essential thing that you need to learn is how to live with it. That's the thing that I've been learning for the last four years since I lost my mom is how to live with her not in this world. Because that's the hardest thing that I've ever had to do. And knowing that now my dad is going to not be here soon. How I can make the last part of his life, you know, how I can be the best person to him and knowing more about Parkinson's in that way, I think makes me feel like I understand more about what I'm going through. And hopefully I can be a better daughter. Cuz you know, caring is challenging. But yeah,Laura Thomas  That's so beautiful. And I'll link to the book and also if you can send me your friend's bookshop, I can pop a link to the bookshop as well. It sounds like a painful, but also beautiful and insightful read. So yeah, thank you for sharing that. My thing is, it feels a bit inconsequential. So I have been taking a break from Instagram, like I completely deleted it off my phone. My husband and I are taking time off the last week and this week, apart from recording this podcast, obviously. Just not having Instagram on my phone. Like I've been reading a lot more. I've been like more than that my brain has just had a lot more space to breathe. And I think kind of in the same way that you talked about having that summer reset to kind of help propel you forward creatively. Like I'm kind of seeing it that way as well that I just need to like, just stop.Laxmi Hussain  I think that's really important, because I know you said it sounds inconsequential, but Instagram and social media in particular keeps us engaged all the time. And we need to step back from that, it's so healthy to step back from that, but there is no message that it's healthy to do that. And I think that's really important as well.Laura Thomas  Laxmi, tell everyone before we go where they can find out more about you and your work.Laxmi Hussain  My website is thislaxmi.com and on Instagram @thislaxmi.Laura Thomas  Thank you so much. This has been such a great conversation to talk to you.Laxmi Hussain  Thanks so much for having me.Laura Thomas  Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Can I Have Another Snack? If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review in your podcast player and head over to laurathomas.substack.com for the full transcript of this conversation, plus links we discussed in the episode and how you can find out more about this week's guest. While you're over there, consider signing up for either a free or paid subscription Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter, where I'm exploring topics around bodies, identity and appetite, especially as it relates to parenting. Also, it's totally cool if you're not a parent, you're welcome too. We're building a really awesome community of cool, creative and smart people who are committed to ending the tyranny of body shame and intergenerational transmission of disordered eating. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas, edited by Joeli Kelly, our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser. And the music is by Jason Barkhouse. And lastly Fiona Bray keeps me on track and makes sure this episode gets out every week. This episode wouldn't be possible without your support. So thank you for being here and valuing my work and I'll catch you next week. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe

Before we get into today's newsletter, I just wanted to say a massive thank you to everyone who has subscribed, shared, commented and liked posts since my premature launch on Thursday (tl;dr I accidentally hit send as I was scheduling up a post for next week and had no choice but to just roll with it). After what has objectively been a terrible year, it's heartening to have such a warm response to this new project. THANK YOU!And if you haven't already, you can join all the lovely folks introducing themselves to this fledgling community over here (and get the dl on what this newsletter is all about). Plus my first essay for Can I Have Another Snack? outlining all the ways the BMI sucks. I also wanted to give you a little teaser of what to expect coming up this week: I have a piece coming on Tuesday about the National School Measurement Programme in schools (aka the ‘ob*sity' report card). It takes a lot to shock me these days when it comes to the lengths the government will take to wage war on kids' bodies, but even I was shook with some of what I found while researching this essay. Then, in our inaugural community discussion thread on Thursday, we're looking at ‘The Nation's Favourite PE Teacher's' kids book, and WOOF, it's a lot. Then on Friday, I'll be sharing the first interview from my new pod - also called Can I Have Another Snack? - inspired, I know. Today I'm sharing a short trailer of what to expect, alongside some snippets of conversation from this month's guests, which you can listen to right here in Substack ^^^ (and soon in your regular Pod player - it might just take a few days for Apple to accept the feed). I've also put it in the DSMG feed for old timers. So what's the deal? Each week I'm asking my guests two questions - who or what are you nourishing right now? And who or what is nourishing you? Upcoming guests include  Laxmi Hussain, Naureen Hunani, Christy Harrison, Clara Nosek, and Julia MF Turshen (!!!!!!). We explore topics around postpartum bodies, food, sanctimommy culture, neurodiversity, diet-culture, kids, capitalism, anti-fat bias, and so much more. Check out the preview above - or subscribe in your podcast player. The first full episode will drop on Friday, and the transcript is below if you'd prefer to read.Hey, welcome to Can I Have Another Snack? A brand new podcast with me, Laura Thomas. Some of you might know me already from my books Just Eat It and How To Just Eat It, or from my old podcast, Don't Salt My Game. For those of you who don't know me, I'm an anti-diet registered nutritionist who helps people make peace with food and their bodies. I'm especially interested in helping parents navigate the hell-scape that is diet culture and to end the intergenerational cycle of body shame and disordered eating. So let me tell you about this podcast. Can I Have Another Snack is an exploration of appetite, identity, and bodies. We're going to talk about how we feed ourselves and our kids (in all senses of the word!), and the ingredients we need to survive in diet culture. Every week I'm asking my guests two questions: who or what are you nourishing? And who or what is nourishing you? Over the next few weeks, you can expect delicious and nurturing conversations with artist Laxmi Hussain, dietitian Christy Harrison, and cookbook author Julia Turshen, among loads of other cool and inspiring guests.But it doesn't stop there - Can I Have Another Snack is a whole universe. In the show notes you'll find a link to my Substack newsletter. The Newsletter is a place where I share deeply researched essays on fundamental topics in the anti-diet cannon - this month we're taking a look at why BMI is bullshit, I'm exploring the history and the problems with the National Child Measurement Programme in Schools, and talking about why nutrition education in schools is really toxic. September has a sort of loose back to school theme. I'll also host weekly discussion threads called Snacky Bits covering everything from Joe Wicks' weird attempt to indoctrinate kids into capitalism through to how to clap-back to unwanted diet and body talk in front of your kids, plus my monthly dear Laura column, where I fashion myself as an agony aunt and answer your questions, plus  I'll share downloads to help you with anti-diet parenting and so much more. And what's so cool about hosting on Substack is that we can really build a community of people who can support and lean on each other. Or just scream into the void if that's what you need to do. I'm also so excited to co-create this space with you - I want it to be a collaboration where you let me know what kinds of topics and segments you want covered and where we crowdsource ideas and solutions and share them with each other.  I hope you'll join me in creating something really special, or at least a place where you can show up as your authentic, unapologetic self. Can I Have Another Snack is a listener and reader supported project, meaning that if you like and value the work I do, you can opt to become a paid subscriber where you get commenting privileges, access to the archive and some of the other columns I described earlier, as well as be part of those weekly discussion threads. It's just £5 a month or £50 for the year. Or if you are a superfan and you know you want to be part of this, you can become a founding member - I'm suggesting £100 but you can name your price - it's more like a donation to help me get this work off the ground and give me a little confidence boost that I am not totally killing my career by doing this. In return, if you're in the UK, I'll send you a copy of both of my books and I'll even sign them if you like. And you'll also get a full subscription to the newsletter. And hey, I totally get that asking you to pay for things is weird, so many of us are used to getting things for free on the internet. And, so many of us are struggling at the moment. And I have become so used to creating podcasts and writing articles and instagram posts for free, that it feels really icky for me to ask for support. But this is work for me, writing is work, research is work, and my expertise as a nutritionist has value. In order to make this sustainable, I need support for my labour. And I also know that £5 a month is a much more accessible way to have a nutritionist in your pocket than paying for 1-1 services, so I really hope I will be worth every penny of that £5. It also helps me pay for things like a podcast editor and to pay my guests for their time, which is also really valuable.And I know that some of us can't stretch to £5 a month right now, and if that's you, please email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk and just put ‘comp subscription' in the subject line - you don't have to explain yourself - just put comp subscription in the subject line and email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk and we'll hook you up. There are also some free ways you can support this project - please subscribe to the podcast on your podcast player, Apple, Spotify, wherever, and subscribe to the newsletter on Substack - the newsletter will be completely free for all of September, and even after the paywall goes live, you'll still get podcast updates and free essays multiple times a month. OK, I am so excited and so nervous about this project - it's been months and months in the making and I'm so thrilled to finally share it with you. I'm going to leave you with a few snippets of conversation from upcoming episodes to whet your appetite, and I'll be back in your ears on Friday. Catch you then.Clip from Ep 1 - Laxmi Hussain:I think the only way I can describe this is when I started painting, including Eden in my work, my agent Georgia Spray, who represents me as part of Partnership Editions, she said that she was looking at the painting, she was like, they're so beautiful, it's like the babies are a jigsaw piece of yourself. And when you paint them together, it's like they fit together. And that's what I'm trying to depict is, I've never, not that I've never seen, but it's just I don't see very often artwork depicting motherhood in a realistic way, in ways that it's awkward, it's beautiful, it's glued together all the time. It's so like I say, I don't swear, but it's so fucking hard. But it's also so incredible like that, you can do this. And if you are able to do this, and you, you know, mentally and physically, you like to do it, it's just wow, we are incredible people, like I'm not just talking like motherhood, yes, is very, very hard. But also, there are incredible other parents out there who do the same, and know what it's like to struggle in this way, and still really, really love it.Clip from Ep 2 - Naureen Hunani:I think that, you know, for me, and I can speak about my experience, like becoming a mother like triggered a whole bunch of stuff in me, things that were just kind of tucked away from childhood and my body changing and also, you know, being neurodivergent, like, I was able to manage somewhat, okay, you know, masking and trying hard enough and just, you know, doing my day to day stuff, but then becoming a mother, it's like, wow, like the executive functioning, you know, differences really started to show up in the multitasking and all of that, and then also questioning, you know, when you like I have, I come from a family of neurodivergent you know, folks, many of them are not diagnosed. And, you know, I find that advocating for my children who are neurodivergent, that that is also very, very difficult when, when we live in this society, so I feel like being a mother, like becoming a mother really pushed me to grow, and really explore those pieces that were just kind of there but not taken care of as a human. And I feel like, you know, also coming from a lot of trauma and childhood trauma, trying to raise my children in a way that aligns with my values, you know, also helps me heal my inner child. Right? Doing things that that I do for my kids and giving them permission to be who they are. It is so healing. It is so incredibly healing. And it has been incredibly difficult as well because growth is painful, right?Clip from Ep 3 - Christy Harrison:And then I had such a difficult time going back to work because, you know, even though I'm right, I'm working from home, I'm in the same house, I can pop over and breastfeed her, you know, whenever she's hungry, just like the getting back and forth between, you know, the mom space and the mom part of my brain and the workspace and this person that I was before I gave birth that I don't even recognise in some ways, you know, like, I mean, not even just physically, but that's, you know, that's a tiny bit in there too. But like, this person that, you know, was so driven and able to work so hard and efficiently and effectively and like, get all my stuff done. And you know, now feeling just kind of like, not very good at what I'm doing and or not very efficient and productive and all of the sort of capitalistic pressures that come with that right. And the feeling of like, you know, I'm the primary earner right now and my husband is the primary childcare and like, there's so much on my shoulders that you know, if I can't do it, my brain goes to these like anxious places of like we're going to lose our house and our food and you know, like, it just goes to like, really they're not true beliefs when I really sit down and think about it and look at it, I'm like, Okay, we have savings, we're okay, we're not gonna, you know, it's not gonna happen. But just having a child I think sort of unlocked a new level of anxiety in a way of like this existential like, and like protecting, you know, needing to protect her in so many ways that sometimes I feel incapable of.Clip from Ep 4 - Clara Nosek:And then there's also like, you, once you give birth, you are not who you were before. Right? You are not who you were when you were pregnant. And so now who are you, you have no idea. And so there's that trying to wrestle with that new you, while also taking care of this other person, while also dealing with the pressure of like, okay, now I want to be like the perfect mom. And then while also like, like dealing with, who am I to my partner, who am I to myself, who am I to my friends? And I think yeah, like, that's, it's weird. There's no books on that. There's no, yeah. And so I think that like trying to decipher who, who that person is and trying to fill it, right, because you're like, building this new relationship. You're starting essentially at ground zero. With like, this pressure to like, you want to be what you look like before you got pregnant or like even better, and it's like, but that person doesn't exist. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit laurathomas.substack.com/subscribe

Hey Team! You may have noticed that I've had a few things in the works lately, and I'm excited to *finally* share my new project with you all. Today I'm sharing the trailer for my brand new podcast - also called Can I Have Another Snack? - inspired, I know. Each week I'm asking my guests two questions - who or what are you nourishing right now? And who or what is nourishing you? Upcoming guests include  Laxmi Hussain, Naureen Hunani, Christy Harrison, Clara Nosek, and Julia MF Turshen (!!!!!!). We explore topics around postpartum bodies, food, sanctimommy culture, neurodiversity, diet-culture, kids, capitalism, anti-fat bias, and so much more. Check out the preview above and catch the first full episode when it drops on Friday! And don't forget - you are listening to this in the Don't Salt My Game feed so just remember to head over to the Can I Have Another Snack? feed in your podcast player and hit subscribe there - that way you won't miss an episode. Go do it right now. You can also subscribe to my brand new Substack, also called Can I have Another Snack? - a newsletter, podcast, and community centred around bodies, identity and appetite. Head on over and introduce yourself (everyone is super cool and welcoming, I promise!). See you all there!

Heyo - welcome to the LAST EVER episode of Don't Salt My Game

Okay team, this week we're moving away from the world of child feeding for a hot minute and diving into the world of body confidence and style. And before you start rolling your eyes at the impending “love yourself” mantra, don't worry, that's not where we're heading. This week, I'm joined by Abby Russell, a curve model, fashion content creator and personal stylist who's MO is to inspire her followers to live authentically, celebrating who they are through personal style. We dive into some of the challenges of figuring out your style after having a baby or becoming a parent. In this episode, we touch on things like; The sneaky and not so sneaky ways that diet culture can show up in so-called fashion rules Where to begin when you're thinking about putting your wardrobe together post-partum How Abby approaches defining your own personal style and how to fun and get playful with it Answering some listener questions on things like bras for big boobs, when to get rid of clothes that no longer fit, the stress of shopping as a plus-size person in a straight-size world and weirdly aggressive reviewers on vinted I really hope you take something great from this episode, and with Abby's contagious energy I'm sure you all will!  Show Notes: Follow Laura on Instagram | Twitter Follow Abby on Instagram Follow Don't Salt My Game on Instagram Laura's Website Sign up for the Let's Talk About Snacks, Baby Workshop  Book in for a complimentary 15-minute Discovery Call with Laura Check out this article by Kelsey Miller Buy an Intuitive Eating friendly guide to managing different health concerns Sign up for a Learn with LCIE Course Buy a copy of Just Eat It | How to Just Eat It  Edited by Joeli Kelly

We're back with a brand new guest this week on Don't Salt My Game - the lovely Oona Hanson. Oona spent 25 years in education and now helps parents and guardians raise kids who have a healthy relationship with food and their body. As well as her private practice as a parent coach, she also works as a family mentor at Equip and holds a master's degree in educational psychology and a master's degree in English. Her work has been featured widely including on CNN, USA Today, Good Morning America, US News and World Report Today, People and Parents Magazine.  In this episode, we cover some really big and important topics like; The challenges of feeding teens Some of the nuances of using the Division of Responsibility with older kids and teens and why Oona actually doesn't use it at all with her own family  Why language like “hollow legs” and “bottomless pit” are really problematic when talking about bodies and appetites, especially for teenagers Who is allowed to own their appetite and who isn't Red flags for eating disorders and disordered eating The parallels between bodies changing in teenagers, as well as body's changing in midlife amongst parents How we can create a safe environment for normalising body changes.  I really love talking to Oona and really appreciate her work. I know that so many of you are going to resonate with this episode and find it super helpful, and if you do then please share the love and share it with friends and family, and hit subscribe to stay in the loop with new episodes dropping weekly. Show Notes: Follow Laura on Instagram | Twitter Follow Oona on Instagram Follow Don't Salt My Game on Instagram Laura's Website Oona's Website Sign up for the Let's Talk About Snacks, Baby Workshop  Book in for a complimentary 15-minute Discovery Call with Laura Check out this piece Oona wrote about why Division of Responsibility might not be suitable to use with eating disorders Listen to the Don't Salt My Game episode with Scott Griffiths talking about muscle dysmorphic disorder Buy an Intuitive Eating friendly guide to managing different health concerns Sign up for a Learn with LCIE Course Buy a copy of Just Eat It | How to Just Eat It Edited by Joeli Kelly

Hey team! We're changing things up a little this week on the pod with a solo episode - just with me, and I'm going to be answering questions about feeding your kiddos and anti-diet parenting that were sent in on Instagram. I'm going to touch on things like: The systemic fear of fatness that trickles into our parenting. Genetically determined set point weight. Why your toddler might seem to be eating more foods at the childminder than at home. When "fussy" eating might actually be a feeding disorder and where to find support with this. I hope you found this episode helpful! You can expect some more of this type of ‘sode popping up every now and then, so let me know what you think of this format or drop an email to hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk if you have any questions you'd like answered in the next AMA! Next week we will be back with a brand new guest, so hit subscribe now to stay in the loop! Show Notes: Follow Laura on Instagram | Twitter Follow Don't Salt My Game on Instagram Laura's Website Sign up for the Let's Talk About Snacks, Baby Workshop  Book in for a complimentary 15-minute Discovery Call with Laura Check out the DSMG episode w/ Kristen Scher about what to do if you're feeling stuck with feeding your kids Check out the episode with Dr. Katja Rowell about when you should worry about your kid's “fussy” eating Check out my IG post on the red flags to look out for that might indicate you're dealing with a feeding disorder Buy an Intuitive Eating friendly guide to managing different health concerns Sign up for a Learn with LCIE Course Buy a copy of Just Eat It | How to Just Eat It Edited by Joeli Kelly

It's that time of the week again folks! This week, I'm bringing back one of my all-time favourite episodes with one of my equally favourite people, Nicola Haggett. We recorded this episode back in January 2021 alongside the launch of my second book, How To Just Eat It. If you haven't already heard this episode, then I think it will have a lot to offer you. And even if you have already listened, I bet you'll get something new and different listening to it a second or even a third time around.  Nikki is body liberationist coach and mentor, professionally trained and experienced life coach, certified Body Trust provider and Open Heart Project meditation instructor. Nikki is also a mid-large, fat human whose lived experiences navigating the world as a fat person are a super important part of her work. In this episode, we dive into the world of embodiment, covering things like: How writing our body story can be an act of reclaiming the narratives of our bodies What exactly embodiment is and how we can find examples of it in our lives (babies, kids, cats!) The difference between embodiment and more ‘performative' or ‘hustle' self-care How embodiment can help us to feel connected to our bodies without necessarily ‘loving' or feeling ‘positive' about them Reclaiming pleasure, appetite, autonomy and more Finding spaces that feel safe to reconnect with your body As always, if you like this conversation, please share the love - give the episode a like on socials or share it with your family and friends, and hit subscribe to stay up to date on new episodes dropping weekly. Show notes: Follow Laura on Instagram | Twitter Follow Nikki on Instagram Follow Don't Salt My Game on Instagram Laura's Website Nikki's Website Sign up for the Raising Intuitive Eaters Workshop  Book in for a complimentary 15-minute Discovery Call with Laura Buy an Intuitive Eating friendly guide to managing different health concerns Sign up for a Learn with LCIE Course Buy a copy of Just Eat It | How to Just Eat It  Edited by Joeli Kelly

I'm SUPER excited about this week's episode because I am speaking to the G.O.A.T of the child feeding world, Dr. Katja Rowell. Katja is an author and child feeding specialist with a passion for supporting parents in helping their children to do their best with eating and to relate to their bodies in positive ways. In this episode, we cover topics like; The difference between regular old picky eating and look at some red flags for when kids or families maybe need a little more support with eating How if you feel like there's a problem and you could do with support and reassurance then that in and of itself is enough of a red flag that you should reach out for help Whether or not it's helpful to pursue a diagnosis around eating difficulties Problems associated with some more conventional feeding therapies or programmes and why Katja and I prefer to work in a way that is less prescriptive and more responsive Values of responsive feeding therapy and talk about what they look like in action Some of the pitfalls perhaps in teaching kids to listen to their tummies, if our agenda is to get kids to eat less. Felt safety, what that means and how we can foster it at mealtimes. Show Notes: Follow Laura on Instagram | Twitter Follow Katja on Instagram Follow Don't Salt My Game on Instagram Laura's Website Katja's Website Sign up for the Raising Intuitive Eaters Workshop  Book in for a complimentary 15-minute Discovery Call with Laura Check out Laura's IG post on how to know if your kiddo needs support with their eating Buy an Intuitive Eating friendly guide to managing different health concerns Sign up for a Learn with LCIE Course Buy a copy of Just Eat It | How to Just Eat It  Check out the White Paper on the values of Responsive Feeding Get a copy of Helping Your Child with Extreme Picky Eating book Get a copy of  Love Me, Feed Me book Check out the Saved By The Bell Hooks Instagram account Click here for help in choosing the right support Edited by Joeli Kelly

Ready for more? Because part 2 is here people!  Last week, I shared the first part of my conversation with Emiko Davies, Australian-Japanese food writer, photographer and cook-book author, so if you missed that then go back and have a listen before you jump into this one. This week I'm bringing you the second part of that conversation. This time, we talked about; Emiko's experience of parenting a child in a bigger body. Emiko's experience of having a bigger body as a child. What the science really says about sugar and why we all need to chill out about giving sugar to kids This was such a great conversation – Emiko is a dream. If you enjoy this episode then please don't forget to share and keep the conversation going over on our socials! Follow Laura on Instagram | Twitter Follow Emiko on Instagram Follow Don't Salt My Game on Instagram Laura's Website Check out Emiko's blog Buy a copy of Just Eat It | How to Just Eat It  Sign up for a Learn with LCIE Course Buy an Intuitive Eating friendly guide to managing different health concerns Edited by Joeli Kelly

Settle in team because this is an episode you're not going to want to miss! This week's 'sode is the first of a 2 part conversation I had with Emiko Davies, an Australian-Japanese food writer, photographer and cook-book author. This is such a wonderful conversation that invites us to imagine another way to feed kids that isn't so caught up in ideas of perfection, or worrying about nutrition or getting everything "right". We touch on things like; Emiko's experiences of feeding her kids while living in Italy, and how that differs when compared with other countries. Where the pressure to feed kids perfectly comes from and how you can learn to shake that off and relax. How a laid back approach to feeding kids could help picky eater to grow to eat a wider range of foods. The second part of this conversation will be out on your podcast player of choice next week, so keep you're eyes peeled for that one. As always, if you liked this episode please share the love and hit subscribe to hear part 2 as soon as it's out! Follow Laura on Instagram | Twitter Follow Emiko on Instagram Follow Don't Salt My Game on Instagram Laura's Website Check out Emiko's blog Buy a copy of Just Eat It | How to Just Eat It  Sign up for a Learn with LCIE Course Buy an Intuitive Eating friendly guide to managing different health concerns Edited by Joeli Kelly

Hold tight folks, this is a good one! This week, I'm chatting with Molly Forbes, journalist, campaigner, author of Body Happy Kids and founding director of the Body Happy Organisation. Molly gives loads of practical and pragmatic advice for how you can begin to open up conversations with your school to stomp out diet culture and support positive body esteem. It's such a helpful episode for anyone who has wondered whether or not schools are undoing some of the things that you're doing at home to protect your kids' relationship with food and their bodies.  Some of the topics we cover include: How influential schools really are when it comes to supporting/disrupting body esteem.  Where diet culture creeps up in schools in areas like school uniform policy. How we can open up conversations with schools about diet culture, and how teachers can get their schools on board with an anti diet culture policy. How you can begin to tackle food policing policies.  National weight measurement programme and why you should opt your kiddo out.  if you enjoyed today's episode, then you can help the show reach more people by subscribing on your podcast player and sharing it with a friend! Show notes: Follow Laura on Instagram | Twitter Follow Molly on Instagram Follow Don't Salt My Game on Instagram Check out Molly's Instagram post school uniform policies Check out Dieticians 4 Teachers on Instagram Laura's Website Body Happy Org Website Buy a copy of Just Eat It | How to Just Eat It  Buy a copy of Body Happy Kids Sign up for a Learn with LCIE Course Buy an Intuitive Eating friendly guide to managing different health concerns Edited by Joeli Kelly

This week, I'm joined by the Dr. Asher Larmie AKA The Fat Doctor. Asher is a transgender, non-binary GP and fat activist who campaigns for an end to medical weight stigma. I really loved this conversation and am so excited for you all to hear it. We cover things like; Why you can't control your child's body and why you shouldn't want to Advice on how you can raise kids who are resilient to body shame What to say when your doctor wants to weight you and you don't consent How they are working to disrupt weight stigma in the medical profession Show notes: Follow Laura on Instagram | Twitter Follow Asher on Instagram Follow Don't Salt My Game on Instagram Laura's Website Asher's Website Check out Asher's #NOWEIGH campaign Buy a copy of Just Eat It | How to Just Eat It Sign up for a Learn with LCIE Course Buy an Intuitive Eating friendly guide to managing different health concerns Edited by Joeli Kelly

I am *finally* getting around to posting this informative and wide-ranging conversation with Kelsey Weight, originally recorded as part of the Heartfelt ‘anti-challenge’ back at the start of 2022. Kelsey is an ‘anti-diet’ dietitian whose presence on social media is such a welcome contrast to so much wellness culture BS. I have so much respect for her working within this profession with all its associations with normative ideas of wellbeing, working to shift the narrative and approach away from weight management and external measures of health. Kelsey (and many other anti-diet, ‘Health at Every Size’ practitioners) use many tools, one being ‘Intuitive Eating’, which she takes us through step by step in this pod. Intuitive Eating is an approach to understanding food, nutrition, satiety, pleasure, hunger and so much more, without getting drawn into unnecessary emotion, guilt, fear or judgement about food and our bodies. What I love about Intuitive Eating is that it provides a basic structure and framework to support and facilitate improved self-trust, but it is not prescriptive; it takes the focus off the external and puts it back on the internal allowing us full permission to decide what and how we eat, being true only to ourselves.We also talk about exactly what ‘diet culture’ is. As the ‘water we swim in’, we may not even realise how much it influences us. Cue getting fired up about feminism, capitalism, consumerism and individualism!If you are interested in learning more, my favourite resource for Intuitive Eating is a book by Dr Laura Thomas called 'Just Eat It', but the original formulation is also available in the book 'Intuitive Eating' by Evelyn Tribole and Elyse Resch. In terms of books and resources that have been extremely helpful for me regarding anxiety and body image, I would recommend:- Embrace Yourself (2018), Tarryn Brumfitt- The Body is not an Apology (2018), Sonya Renee Taylor- Perfect me: Beauty as an Ethical Idea (2018), Heather Widdows- First, we make the beast beautiful (2017) , Sarah Wilson- Don't Salt My Game (a pod by Dr Laura Thomas)...and many of the blog posts by @thereallife_rd This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit heartfeltmoves.substack.com

You're gonna love this one team! This week's episode is here and this time, I'm joined by Jeanette Thompson-Wessen, AKA @themindsetnutritionist. Jeanette is an anti-diet, Intuitive Eating, fat positive nutritionist and all-round bad-ass in this field. In this conversation, we cover things like; Jeanette's experience of bumping up against anti-fat maternity policies How leaning into social justice helped her make peace with her body Snapback culture and our experiences of breastfeeding Modeling healthy body esteem to our kids How diet culture shows up in our parenting How raising anti-diet kids is a form of resistance and rebellion  This is such a great conversation ya'll, so don't forget to subscribe and give it a share if you enjoyed it! Show Notes: Follow Laura on Instagram | Twitter Follow Jeanette on Instagram Follow Don't Salt My Game on Instagram Laura's Website Jeanette's Website Check out Jeanette's crowdfunding campaign here  Check out my IG post on where diet culture shows up in your parenting Buy a copy of Just Eat It | How to Just Eat It  Check out Body Happy Org Sign up for a Learn with LCIE Course Buy an Intuitive Eating friendly guide to managing different health concerns Edited by Joeli Kelly  

HEYO - look who's back on the pod! Tally first shared her journey with us back in 2019 {listen to that here}. Since then she's published two books and completely shaken up the fitness industry, challenging the notoriously weight-centric, aesthetics focussed industry to move in ways that feel joyful and to prioritize rest (and not feel guilty about it!). She also joined us in 2021 to break down the principles of Intuitive Movement {you can listen to that here}. This episode was recorded back in January as part of a live Q+A we did (before things got weird). I decided to save this episode to share with you on International No Diet Day because it felt like the perfect way to celebrate! In this episode we cover: - The difference between exercise and intuitive movement- How we can approach rest without feeling guilty- Why I hate the daily mile in schools - Ableism in the fitness space- How to know if movement is motivated by self-care or coming from a place of wanting to control your body and your weight This is such a fun episode - Tally is a dream. If you enjoy this conversation then please don't forget to share and keep the conversation going over on our socials! *take £50 off any of the LCIE courses for 48 hours only using code NODIETDAY50* - SIGN UP HERE Follow Laura on Instagram | Twitter Follow Don't Salt My Game on Instagram Laura's Website Buy a copy of Just Eat It | How to Just Eat It  Sign up for a Learn with LCIE Course Buy an Intuitive Eating friendly guide  to managing different health concerns Edited by Joeli Kelly Follow Tally on Instagram Listen to the Train Happy Podcast Buy Train Happy | The Train Happy Journal 

Kristen is back for round 2 this week! Kristen joined me a couple weeks back to talk about all things child feeding (if you haven't checked it out yet, you can listen here!). This time round, we're diving into some of the challenges listeners are facing while feeding your kids and answering questions you submitted about your specific struggle. We're going to cover things like; What to do if your breastfed toddler is a boob fiend Child led ways to support older kids who are quite particular about what they like and don't like, and are maybe struggling to expand the variety of foods that they're eating How diet culture shows up at the table What to do when a kid starts dropping food or goes through a food jag What if kids aren't interested in foods How you can support a picky or fussy eater If you found this episode helpful and want to stay in the loop with new episodes, hit subscribe now!   Follow Laura on Instagram | Twitter Follow Kristen on Instagram Follow Don't Salt My Game on Instagram Laura's Website Kristen's Website Check out my IG post highlighting the main red flags for requiring more support with feeding kidsCheck out my IG post about “beige” foodsIf you are looking for a professional trained in responsive feeding, you could reach out to myself, Jo Cormack, Julia Wolman, Natalia Stasenko, Katja Rowell or Naureen Hunani Buy a copy of Just Eat It | How to Just Eat It Sign up for a Learn with LCIE CourseBuy an Intuitive Eating friendly guide to managing different health concernsEdited by Joeli Kelly

I hope you're buckled in because this one's a doozy! Today I'm joined by Dr. Martha Deiros Collado, a clinical psychologist with expertise in parenting, child development and paediatric health. In this conversation, we explore how to support kids in building healthy body esteem and preserving a positive experience of embodiment. Some of the topics we cover in this episode include; The necessity of bringing an intersectional lens to conversations about body esteem Why promoting body esteem is about so much more than teaching kids they look good  We cover BIG ideas like agency, autonomy, consent and honouring differences in identity (but don't sweat - Martha makes these ideas super accessible) We touch on how letting kids have autonomy around food is so critical (and why you should let them blow their own nose!) And lastly, we name some of the power structures and systems of oppression that make us feel as though our bodies are not good enough in the first place If you enjoy this episode then don't forget to subscribe to get more like this right to your podcast player every Friday! Follow Laura on Instagram | TwitterFollow Martha on InstagramFollow Don't Salt My Game on InstagramLaura's WebsiteMartha's WebsiteCheck out Episode 134 with Kristen ScherBuy a copy of Just Eat It | How to Just Eat It Sign up for a Learn with LCIE CourseBuy an Intuitive Eating friendly guide to managing different health concernsEdited by Joeli Kelly

In the second episode of DSMG's brand new season, I chat with Nicola Salmon, a fat-positive fertility coach and author of 'Fat and Fertile'. This is such an important conversation to have to support people in relearning how to trust their own bodies and ability to get pregnant. Some of the topics we touch on in this episdode include; Fat-positive fertility Why you don't have to lose weight before starting a family The BS that are BMI cut-offs in assisted fertility Things you can do to support your fertility at any size Follow Laura on Instagram | Twitter Follow Nicola on Instagram Follow Don't Salt My Game on Instagram Laura's Website Nicola's Website Check out Nicola's IG post on the research behind fertility and BMICheck out Nicola's book ‘Fat and Fertile' Locate a fat-positive fertility clinic here Buy a copy of Just Eat It | How to Just Eat It Sign up for a Learn with LCIE CourseBuy an Intuitive Eating friendly guide to managing different health concernsEdited by Joeli Kelly

Here it is! The very first episode of DSMG's brand new season - are you ready? In this week's episode, my guest Kristen Scher and I are diving deep into all things child feeding. Some of the topics we'll be covering in this episode are; What the Division of Responsibility is and who has what role in the child-feeding relationship Unpacking the parent's job when it comes to feeding - the what, the when, and the where of feeding our kids How diet culture shows up in child feeding and the problems that can cause The importance of unpacking our own issues with food before they trickle down to our kids Don't forget to hit subscribe to keep in the loop with new eipsodes and keep an eye out for part 2 with Kristen, coming in a couple of weeks! Follow Laura on Instagram | Twitter Follow Don't Salt My Game on Instagram Laura's Website Buy a copy of Just Eat It | How to Just Eat It  Pick up a copy of My Body, My Home by Victoria Emanuela and Caitlin Metz Check out Lizzo's Watch Out for the Big Grrrls show on Amazon Prime Sign up for a Learn with LCIE Course Buy an Intuitive Eating friendly guide to managing different health concerns Edited by Joeli Kelly

WE'RE BACK. Don't Salt My Game is back for a whole new run of shows. Check out this short trailer to get a sneak preview of upcoming guests, what to expect from the season and to catch up with what's been going on for the past year (!). Make sure to hit subscribe in your podcast player to get the first full episode when it drops on Friday 8th April. Follow Laura on Instagram | Twitter Follow Don't Salt My Game on Instagram Laura's Website Buy a copy of Just Eat It | How to Just Eat It  Sign up for a Learn with LCIE Course Buy an Intuitive Eating friendly guide  to managing different health concerns Edited by Joeli Kelly

Intuitive eating counselor and author Laura Thomas joins us to discuss her new book, Just Eat It; the problems with The Wellness Diet; why subtle levels of weight stigma are so hard to pinpoint and eradicate; why "emotional eating" and turning to food for comfort are falsely demonized in diet culture; why people in the nutrition field often struggle in their own relationships with food; and so much more. Plus, Christy answers a listener question about whether the 12-step model works for food issues. (This episode originally aired on January 14, 2019.) Laura Thomas, PhD is an AfN Registered Nutritionist and Certified Intuitive Eating Counsellor specialising in Intuitive Eating, Mindful Eating, weight inclusive and non-diet nutrition. She has a BSc in Health Sciences from the University of Aberdeen, a PhD in Nutritional Sciences from Texas A&M University, and completed her Post-Doctoral research at Cornell University in behaviour change. She is the host of Don't Salt My Game podcast and was the Nutritionist for the 2017 BBC1 documentary Mind Over Marathon. She established the London Centre for Intuitive Eating in 2017 to help clients and train clinicians in Intuitive Eating. Her first book, Just Eat It: How to get your shit together around food was published this month by Bluebird Books. Find her online at LauraThomasPhD.co.uk. Subscribe to our newsletter, Food Psych Weekly, to keep getting new weekly Q&As and other new content while the podcast is on hiatus! If you're ready to break free from diet culture once and for all, come check out Christy's Intuitive Eating Fundamentals online course. You'll get all your questions answered in an exclusive monthly podcast, plus ongoing support in our private community forum and dozens of hours of other great content. Christy's first book, Anti-Diet, is available wherever you get your books. Order online at christyharrison.com/book, or at local bookstores across North America, the UK, Australia, and New Zealand. Grab Christy's free guide, 7 simple strategies for finding peace and freedom with food, for help getting started on the anti-diet path. For full show notes and a transcript of this episode, go to christyharrison.com/foodpsych. Ask your own question about intuitive eating, Health at Every Size, or eating disorder recovery at christyharrison.com/questions.

In this episode, Eating Disorder recovery advocate Megsy_Recovery, interviews ED Recovery Coach Safia Muzaffar, to discuss their own experiences of their recovery and CBT-E treatment. Together they discuss:Not feeling ‘ill enough'Comparison to other people's foodComparison to other people's bodiesGoals & motivation in recovery Coping with weight gain  Protecting your recovery Family advice Overcoming obsessions with foodThey also mention some recovery podcasts which have helped in their recoveries: The All In Podcast, The Eating Disorder Recovery Podcast, ED Matters, Food Psych, Don't Salt My Game, Beyond Body, Recovery Bites, iWeigh, Real Health Radio.And they mention a recovery book: Cognitive Behaviour Therapy for Eating Disorders in Young People - By Riccardo Dalle Grave, Carine el Khazenhttps://www.routledge.com/Cognitive-B...Contacts:Safia: safia.s.muzaffar@gmail.comMegan: megsy_recovery (instagram)Please reach out with your questions, suggestions and feedback via media@meeda.meFor your free 15 mins assessment, please visit www.meeda.me/contactswww.meeda.me

In this episode, I am joined by Jess Sprengle, a Licensed Professional Counselor in both Texas and New Jersey specializing in the care and treatment of adolescents, young adults, adults, and families impacted by eating disorders, disordered eating, body image disturbances, and adjacent issues. She is a champion of freedom, justice, and liberation for all people and all bodies and practices from an intersectional, social justice-aligned lens. Jess considers herself to be a “radically genuine” therapist and seeks to embody authenticity and “humanness” with clients. She brings this ferocity to the social media world through her Instagram and Twitter account.Join us for a conversation about reciprocal openness in therapy (especially for adolescents and others in their formative years), the harm of fear-driven messages, the danger of waiting for “rock bottom” before beginning the recovery process, comparing eating disorders to a rigged game of chess, eating disorders as a social justice issue, and much more!CONNECT WITH JESS:• Learn about Jess and her private practice by visiting jessicasprenglelpc.com• Get in touch with Jess directly• View Jess' Services and Fees here • Follow Jess on Twitter, TikTok, and Instagram• Listen to more of Jess on:╴“Jess Bad Ass Recovered Therapist” for the Eating Disorder Recovery podcast ╴“We are Inherently Worthy of the Things That Are Good for Us” for the You, Me, Empathy podcast╴“How to Just Eat It: Chapter 5 - Understanding Emotional Eating” for the Don't Salt My Game podcast• Discover more of Jess' podcast appearances, featured articles, community presentations on her media page＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿＿About Karin Lewis:Karin Lewis, MA, LMFT, CEDS has been recovered from Anorexia Nervosa for over 20 years and has been specializing in the prevention and treatment of eating disorders since 2005. To learn more about Karin and her center's services, please visit Karin Lewis Eating Disorder Center. You can connect with Karin on social media by following her on Facebook and Instagram.If you enjoyed the podcast, we would be so grateful if you would please consider leaving a review on Apple Podcasts or on RateThisPodcast (non-iOS). Thank you!Interested in being a guest on the show? If so, please fill out our brief application form to start the process.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode with the wonderful Laura Thomas! Another huge thank you to our sponsor, Daye Tampons. Use the code "Shades5" to get £5 off your first box when you subscribe!

In the very first ever episode of the 50 Shades of Nutrition podcast, I'm joined by the co-founder of Intuitive Eating, Evelyn Tribole! Another huge thank you to Daye, use the code "shades5" which will give you £5 off your first box! In this episode we chatted about: ✨What actually is Intuitive Eating? And the science behind it ✨Why diets don't work, and why everyone thinks they will be in that 1% of “successful dieters” ✨How dieting disrupts your life ✨What Intuitive Eating IS NOT and how to spot fake IE - diet culture is a shapeshifter ✨How to start making peace with food, and the nuances of this principle Evelyn often calls the “paradox principle” ✨Thin privilege when healing your relationship to food ✨How to start your IE journey, plus how to get training as a healthcare professional More from Evelyn Evelyn's new book! Order on Amazon Evelyn's website Instagram @evelyntribole More about Intuitive Eating Want to know more about IE? Order the Intuitive Eating book (4th edition) Intuitive Eating website The peer support community Facebook support group Health care professionals: Become an IE counsellor Check out our “what is IE?” blog Our blog on “common IE myths” All Intuitive Eating research up to 2018 A CNN article about a person's experience of IE healing their relationship to food {TW: Reference to eating disorders and disordered eating behaviours}. More from Isa Robinson Find me on Instagram @isarobinson_nutrition Looking for 121 nutrition counselling support? Enquire on our website Hear Isa speaking to Laura Thomas about “what gym bros get wrong about IE” on the Don't Salt My Game podcast & hear Jess talking about “real vs fake IE” Extra resources/study mentioned 2020 pilot study using the IE workbook Body positivity / body confidence accounts to follow

Krystal and Paul are back this time discussing the episode where Roseanne and Jackie drive to Kansas City to meet their father's mistress! We also chat about fighting at school, changes we've made during lockdown and pre-gig nerves. On the Road again, Cornballs! Novara Media: https://www.youtube.com/user/NovaraMedia Don't Salt My Game: https://open.spotify.com/show/0tnnkX7ETBaLQqyA1zW15H?si=dwnzWUgdQJ26AatzHVPaTw Subscribe and Review on iTunes! CreamedCornPod on Facebook! CreamedCornPod on Twitter! CreamedCornPod on Instagram! Krystal's Twitter! Krystal's Instagram! Krystal Evans Comedy! Paul's Twitter! Paul McDaniel Comedy!  Our theme song is by Tom Urie. Follow him on Twitter! Tom Urie's Twitter 

"My favorite way to describe it [Intuitive Eating] is it's really just the self care framework for eating. So it's a way to eat that is really self compassionate, it's weight neutral, it really focuses on how food makes us feel when we are nourished and we get enough to eat, but also when we enjoy eating." - Megan Meyer Show Details: Today we are talking to Megan about Intuitive Eating! Megan is from Northern Arizona University and works on campus bringing health and wellness topics to all. She gives some great examples of how to use the intuitive eating framework, ways students can get started and just be more gentle with themselves! This is a great one people! Links and Resources Mentioned in the show: Intuitive Eating Website Intuitive Eating: Evelyn & Elyse Instagram Dietitians that Are IE focused: @laurathomasphd @heytiffanyroe @chr1styharrison @alissarumseyrd @your.latina.nutritionist @encouragingdietitian Books: Intuitive Eating 4th Edition Intuitive Eating Workbook Just Eat It The Body Is Not An Apology Ant-Diet by Christy Harrison Podcasts: Don't Salt My Game (*language advisory) Thank you for listening we are Nutrition Navigators, a program at Campus Health, in Health Promotion, here at the University of Arizona. Our mission is to have students navigate nutrition and have a healthy relationship with food and body. Connect with Campus Health and send us your feedback! Facebook Instagram Twitter YouTube We are sponsored by Campus Health, Health Promotion and Preventive Services!

Welcome to this special series of Don’t Salt My Game celebrating the release of my new book How to Just Eat It. For the past several weeks, I have posted two new episodes of the podcast (Tuesdays and Fridays) that correspond with a chapter of the book to help you take your learning further and deepen your intuitive eating practice. Make sure you go back and have a listen. How To Just Eat It is out now!    In today’s episode I’m talking to Kimmie Singh, MS, RD, who is a is a Registered Dietitian Nutritionist at LK Nutrition, a Health at Every Size® nutrition private practice based in New York City that supports people with eating disorders, disordered eating, and anyone seeking for support in healing their relationship with food and body. Kimmie has a passion for Intuitive Eating and weight-inclusive nutrition and is currently the treasurer for the Association for Size Diversity and Health; as well as an active member of the International Federation of Eating Disorder Dietitians. In this episode we’re talking about ‘the next steps’ of intuitive eating.   In this episode we talk about:   How we can make Body Positivity and Intuitive Eating more accessible & inclusive Oppressive systems and their part to play in Intuitive Eating Barriers to Intuitive Eating How Intuitive Eating might feel unsafe to some folks The relationship between cultural assimilation and diet culture  Social justice & equality Looking beyond our own personal Intuitive Eating process Clinical vs Emotional understanding   Kimmie shares her insight on the complexities behind making Intuitive Eating more inclusive, as well as sharing advice on why it’s so important to listen to clients on an individual, human-to-human level if they express concern around Intuitive Eating. Get your copy of How To Just Eat It! UK {Amazon} {Waterstones} {WH Smith}   Australia {Booktopia)   Worldwide with free shipping {Book Depository}   Edited by Bea Duncan - @beaduncan_ Find me on social media: Instagram Twitter  Work with my team at The London Centre for Intuitive Eating   Guest Information: Kimmie Singh - Instagram Website Podcast   Resources Mentioned: Fearing The Black Body - Sabrina Strings The Body is Not an Apology - Sonya Renee Taylor My Black Body Podcast - Rawiyah Tariq and Jessica Wilson, MS. RD.

Welcome to this special series of Don’t Salt My Game celebrating the release of my new book How to Just Eat It. For the next several weeks, I’ll be posting two new episodes of the podcast (Tuesdays and Fridays) that correspond with a chapter of the book to help you take your learning further and deepen your intuitive eating practice. How To Just Eat It is out now! Episode 9 of this series will drop on Tuesday 16th Feb!   In today’s episode I’m talking to Paige Smathers RDN, CD is a registered dietitian nutritionist in private practice and podcaster whose work revolves around helping people heal their relationships with food and their body. She specializes in chronic dieting, addiction recovery nutrition, eating disorders and family feeding dynamics. Her approach to nutrition and health is grounded in mindfulness and is rooted in the intuitive eating and Health at Every Size frameworks. In this episode we’re talking all about the final principle of Intuitive Eating; Gentle Nutrition.   In this episode we talk about: How choosing what to eat is like choosing what to wear Unconditional permission to eat; what it is and what it isn’t Why it’s important not to come to Gentle Nutrition before we are ready Food flexibility How mindfulness can support our relationship with food Letting go of ‘food perfection’ Food satisfaction Food curiosity   Paige talks us through how we can start to take the power back into our own bodies to find what feels good for us. Get your copy of How To Just Eat It! UK {Amazon} {Waterstones} {WH Smith}   Australia {Booktopia)   Worldwide with free shipping {Book Depository}   Edited by Bea Duncan - @beaduncan_ Find me on social media: Instagram Twitter  Work with my team at The London Centre for Intuitive Eating   Guest Information: Paige Smathers - Instagram Website Podcast   Resources Mentioned: Weight Inclusive Guides: https://gumroad.com/lcie

Welcome to this special series of Don’t Salt My Game celebrating the release of my new book How to Just Eat It. For the next several weeks, I’ll be posting two new episodes of the podcast (Tuesdays and Fridays) that correspond with a chapter of the book to help you take your learning further and deepen your intuitive eating practice. How To Just Eat It is out now! Episode 12 of this series will drop on Friday 12th Jan!   In today’s episode, I’m talking to Jake Gifford, a personal trainer and doctoral researcher at Brunel University London whose aim is to reframe fitness and what it means to move our bodies. In this episode, we’re talking about the bigger-picture and socio-political considerations that often get left out of the conversations about movement.    In this episode we talk about:   How a lot of public health rhetorics around moving our bodies make oversimplified recommendations  Healthism Some of the problematic discourse around how exercise is described e.g. “exercise is medicine”  Looking at the bigger picture of movement Factors that could stop an individual from engaging in movement Hierarchies of exercise - and why they’re problematic How to make movement more inclusive Issues with movement being associated with morality Structural and social determinants of health   Jake talks us through how movement has historically been associated with moral righteousness and personal responsibility; as well what we can do to shift the narrative so ensure it becomes more inclusive and accessible. Get your copy of How To Just Eat It! UK {Amazon} {Waterstones} {WH Smith}   Australia {Booktopia)   Worldwide with free shipping {Book Depository}   Edited by Bea Duncan - @beaduncan_ Find me on social media: Instagram Twitter  Work with my team at The London Centre for Intuitive Eating   Guest Information:   Jake Gifford - Instagram   Previous episode with Jake: http://www.laurathomasphd.co.uk/podcast/ep-jake-gifford/ Podcast episode with Dr. Oli Williams: http://www.laurathomasphd.co.uk/podcast/oli/

Welcome to this special series of Don’t Salt My Game celebrating the release of my new book How to Just Eat It. For the next several weeks, I’ll be posting two new episodes of the podcast (Tuesdays and Fridays) that correspond with a chapter of the book to help you take your learning further and deepen your intuitive eating practice. How To Just Eat It is out now! Episode 11 of this series will drop on Tuesday 9th Feb! In today’s episode I’m talking to Tally Rye. Tally is a London-based Personal Trainer and Content Creator, who specialises in weight-inclusive, non-diet fitness. She is also the Author of the book ‘Train Happy’ and hosts the ‘Train Happy’ podcast.  In this episode we’re talking in-depth about all of the principles of Intuitive Movement. Tally shares her experience and advice on how we can reframe exercise in a way that feels good for us, rather than it feeling like a punishment.  In this episode we talk about: The principles of Intuitive Movement Reframing the way we think about exercise Ways movement can be a tool for self-care The problem with fitness watches/trackers How diet culture has co-opted mainstream fitness Why we might have a complicated relationship with movement Tally shares how one of the biggest benefits of Intuitive Movement is regaining valuable headspace that has been lost to diet culture; through numbers or counting or “rules”, and how we can channel that back into the really meaningful parts of our lives.   Get your copy of How To Just Eat It! UK {Amazon} {Waterstones} {WH Smith}   Australia {Booktopia)   Worldwide with free shipping {Book Depository}   Edited by Bea Duncan - @beaduncan_ Find me on social media: Instagram Twitter  Work with my team at The London Centre for Intuitive Eating Guest Information: Tally Rye - Instagram Website Book/Podcast

Welcome to this special series of Don’t Salt My Game celebrating the release of my new book How to Just Eat It. For the next several weeks, I’ll be posting two new episodes of the podcast (Tuesdays and Fridays) that correspond with a chapter of the book to help you take your learning further and deepen your intuitive eating practice. How To Just Eat It is out now! Episode 10 of this series will drop on Friday 5th Feb! In today’s episode, Laura gives us the run down of Chapter 9 of How to Just Eat It - Feeling your Fullness. Laura gives some useful tips on how we can reframe our negative thoughts when we start to feel uncomfortable with feelings of fullness, as well as why ‘what I eat in a day videos’ need to get to fuck! In this episode we talk about: Feelings of fullness How Diet Culture has distorted our idea of how much food we really need  Why ‘what I eat in a day’ videos are problematic How we can reframe fear mongering language around feelings of fullness  Tips on what to do when struggling with feelings of fullness Laura explains how learning about fullness is a process and something that we don’t need to get ‘perfect’ every time. She reiterates that throughout this journey, self-kindness and compassion are key. Get your copy of How To Just Eat It! UK {Amazon} {Waterstones} {WH Smith}   Australia {Booktopia)   Worldwide with free shipping {Book Depository}   Edited by Bea Duncan - @beaduncan_ Find me on social media: Instagram Twitter  Work with my team at The London Centre for Intuitive Eating   Laura’s Information: Instagram Twitter Website  

Welcome to this special series of Don’t Salt My Game celebrating the release of my new book How to Just Eat It. For the next several weeks, I’ll be posting two new episodes of the podcast (Tuesdays and Fridays) that correspond with a chapter of the book to help you take your learning further and deepen your intuitive eating practice. How To Just Eat It is out now! Episode 9 of this series will drop on Tuesday 2nd Feb!   In today’s episode I’m talking to Jenna Hollenstein (MS, RDN, CDN). Jenna is an anti-diet dietitian who helps heal disordered eating using a combination of Intuitive Eating, mindfulness techniques, and meditation to help her clients move toward greater peace, health, and wellness. In this episode we’re talking about why the pursuit of weight loss is antithetical to Mindful Eating & Intuitive Eating, what Mindful Eating actually is (and what it isn’t) and how you can start to practice it in your daily life.   In this episode we talk about: How Diet Culture has co opted Mindful Eating  Why Mindfulness practice and weight loss are incompatible What Mindfulness really is Acknowledging our thoughts in the moment Meditation Breath awareness Regaining trust in our own bodies Is your desire to be vegan coming from a place of control or compassion Jenna shares her experience, expertise and advice on how to incorporate Mindfulness into our daily lives to help support our Intuitive Eating practices.  Get your copy of How To Just Eat It! UK {Amazon} {Waterstones} {WH Smith}   Australia {Booktopia)   Worldwide with free shipping {Book Depository}   Edited by Bea Duncan - @beaduncan_ Find me on social media: Instagram Twitter  Work with my team at The London Centre for Intuitive Eating   Guest Information: Jenna Hollenstein - Instagram Website Twitter Book   Resources Mentioned: Jenna’s website: https://jennahollenstein.com/ The Open Heart Project: https://openheartproject.com/ DSMG episode with Fiona Sutherland: Ep 121 - How To Just Eat It - Chapter 1: Your Intuitive Eating Toolkit

Welcome to this special series of Don’t Salt My Game celebrating the release of my new book How to Just Eat It. For the next several weeks, I’ll be posting two new episodes of the podcast (Tuesdays and Fridays) that correspond with a chapter of the book to help you take your learning further and deepen your intuitive eating practice. How To Just Eat It is out now! Episode 8 of this series will drop on Friday 29th Jan! In today’s episode I’m talking to Devinia Noel, a cognitive behavioural therapist and certified intuitive eating counsellor. In this episode we’re talking about unhelpful thinking styles that show up when we’re working through the intuitive eating process, how we can recognise them and how we can begin to shift them towards more flexible ways of thinking. In this episode we talk about: Black and white, all-or-nothing thinking Mental filters Catastrophization Emotional reasoning  Jumping to conclusions Compare and despair  Labelling Should and must statements Dee shares how we can notice when unhelpful thinking styles show up and how we can begin to reframe them towards thinking patterns that move us away from diet mentality and towards self-compassion. Finally catch another definition for your glossary on page 35/36 of HTJEI - this time from Eliza Khinsoe on ‘healthism’.  Get your copy of How To Just Eat It! UK {Amazon} {Waterstones} {WH Smith}   Australia {Booktopia) Worldwide with free shipping {Book Depository} Edited by Bea Duncan - @beaduncan_ Find me on social media: Instagram Twitter  Work with my team at The London Centre for Intuitive Eating Guest Information: Devinia Noel - Instagram Website Eliza Khinsoe - Instagram Twitter Website

Welcome to this special series of Don’t Salt My Game celebrating the release of my new book How to Just Eat It. For the next several weeks, I’ll be posting two new episodes of the podcast (Tuesdays and Fridays) that correspond with a chapter of the book to help you take your learning further and deepen your intuitive eating practice. How To Just Eat It is out now! Episode 7 of this series will drop on Tuesday 26th Jan! In today’s episode I’m talking to Dalina Soto, a Registered Dietitian who specialises in intuitive eating and helping people break free from chronic dieting and food rules. In this episode we’re talking about fears people have when they embark on intuitive eating and letting go of food rules, plus unpacking some of the most common food rules we hear in our nutrition practices.     In this episode we talk about:   Common fears people have about Intuitive Eating like: “I’ll never stop eating! ) “What if I gain weight”  “I can’t control myself” “I will only eat unhealthy foods” And how we can work through them. Plus we unpack common food rules people have like: Not allowed to eat anything that isn’t ‘clean’ Can’t eat more than one type of carb in a meal I can’t have a snack unless I workout No food after X time at night  Can’t have dessert in the house  Plus Dalina’s best advice for people who are struggling to let go of food rules Finally catch another definition for your glossary on page 35/36 of HTJEI - this time from Steph Yeboah  Get your copy of How To Just Eat It! UK {Amazon} {Waterstones} {WH Smith}   Australia {Booktopia)   Worldwide with free shipping {Book Depository}   Edited by Bea Duncan - @beaduncan_ Find me on social media: Instagram Twitter  Work with my team at The London Centre for Intuitive Eating Guest Information: Dalina Soto- Instagram Twitter Website Steph Yeboah - Instagram Twitter Website

Welcome to this special series of Don’t Salt My Game celebrating the release of my new book How to Just Eat It. For the next several weeks, I’ll be posting two new episodes of the podcast (Tuesdays and Fridays) that correspond with a chapter of the book to help you take your learning further and deepen your intuitive eating practice. How To Just Eat It is out now! Episode 6 of this series will drop on Friday 22nd Jan! In today’s episode I’m talking to Jess Sprengle, a therapist specialising in disordered eating and eating disorders, who is perhaps best known for her Meme Mondays on her Instagram account @thecrankytherapist. In this episode we’re talking about emotional eating and how we can come to understand it from a more compassionate perspective.  In this episode we talk about: An eating disorder therapist’s take on emotional eating Why we can’t divorce our emotions from eating  Differentiating emotional hunger and hunger due to restriction of food How restriction can show up in different areas of our lives Tapping into our emotional coping toolkit (and how to reinforce the one we already have) And loads more mic drop moments! Plus catch another definition for your glossary on page 35/36 of HTJEI - this time from anti-diet dietitian Christy Harrison.  Get your copy of How To Just Eat It! UK {Amazon} {Waterstones} {WH Smith} Australia {Booktopia) Worldwide with free shipping {Book Depository} Edited by Bea Duncan - @beaduncan_ Find me on social media: Instagram Twitter  Work with my team at The London Centre for Intuitive Eating   Guest Information: Jess Sprengle - Instagram Twitter Website Christy Harrison - Instagram Twitter Website

Welcome to this special series of Don’t Salt My Game celebrating the release of my new book How to Just Eat It. For the next several weeks, I’ll be posting two new episodes of the podcast (Tuesdays and Fridays) that correspond with a chapter of the book to help you take your learning further and deepen your intuitive eating practice. How To Just Eat It is out now! Episode 5 of this series will drop on Tuesday 19th Jan!   In today’s episode I’m talking to Nicola Haggett, a Body Trust provider and Intuitive Eating counsellor. In this episode we’re talking all about the concept of embodiment as a tool to help us feel more connected to our bodies.    In this episode we talk about: How writing our body story can be an act of reclaiming the narrative of our bodies What exactly embodiment is and how we can find examples of it in our lives (babies, kids, cats!)  The difference between embodiment and more ‘performative’ or ‘hustle’ self-care How embodiment can help us feel connected to our bodies without necessarily ‘loving’ or feeling ‘positive’ about them. Reclaiming pleasure, appetite, autonomy and more.  Finding spaces that feel safe to reconnect with your body.   There’s also a brilliant definition of The Social Determinants of Health from Jake Gifford for your glossary on page 35/36 of HTJEI. Watch out for a whole episode of Jake later in the series.    Get your copy of How To Just Eat It! UK {Amazon} {Waterstones} {WH Smith} Australia {Booktopia) Worldwide with free shipping {Book Depository} Edited by Bea Duncan - @beaduncan_ Find me on social media: Instagram Twitter  Work with my team at The London Centre for Intuitive Eating Guest Information: Nicola Haggett- Instagram Twitter Website Jake Gifford - Instagram Twitter Website

Welcome to this special series of Don’t Salt My Game celebrating the release of my new book (out now!) How to Just Eat It. For the next several weeks, I’ll be posting two new episodes of the podcast (Tuesdays and Fridays) that correspond with a chapter of the book to help you take your learning further and deepen your intuitive eating practice. Episode 4 of this series will drop on Friday 15th Jan!   In today’s episode I’m talking to Olimata Taal, the newest member of the LCIE team and creator behind the Instagram account @wellwitholi. In this episode we’re talking all about learning to honour your hunger. In this episode we talk about: How diet culture teaches us to be distrustful and fearful of our bodies How ignoring our hunger is a form of self-neglect The problem with what I eat in a day videos and comparing what we eat with other people What to do if you feel hungry soon after you’ve had a meal or snack The difference between fullness and satisfaction Treating yourself with love and compassion when things feel difficult The role of racism in making us feel less than and second guessing our choices around food and our body I’m also sharing a visualisation technique to help you get more in touch with your signals around hunger and satisfaction Finally Jess Sprengle is here to tell us the difference between disordered eating and eating disorders. Get your copy of How To Just Eat It! UK {Amazon} {Waterstones} {WH Smith} Australia {Booktopia) Worldwide with free shipping {Book Depository} Edited by Bea Duncan - @beaduncan_ Find me on social media: Instagram Twitter  Work with my team at The London Centre for Intuitive Eating Guest Information: Olimata Taal - Instagram  Jess Sprengle - Instagram Twitter

Welcome to this special series of Don’t Salt My Game celebrating the release of my new book How to Just Eat It. For the next several weeks, I’ll be posting two new episodes of the podcast (Tuesdays and Fridays) that correspond with a chapter of the book to help you take your learning further and deepen your intuitive eating practice. How To Just Eat It Came out yesterday! Episode 3 of this series will drop on Tuesday 12th Jan!   In today’s episode I’m talking to Nadia Craddock, a body image researcher and host of the Body Protest and Appearance matters podcasts. In this episode we’re talking all about the impact (positive and negative) social media has on our body image. In this episode we talk about: How social media can shape how we feel about ourselves (both positively and negatively) What exactly self objectification theory is and the impact it has on our ability to engage in things that are meaningful to us How we can build a nurturing social media environment How we can learn to ‘zoom out’ and ‘soften our gaze’ when it comes to viewing our own image on social media There’s also a brilliant definition of Fat Phobia for your glossary on page 35/36 of HTJEI from body liberation coach Nicola Hagget. Stay tuned for a whole episode with Nikki soon! Get your copy of How To Just Eat It! UK {Amazon} {Waterstones} {WH Smith} Australia {Booktopia) Worldwide with free shipping {Book Depository} Edited by Bea Duncan - @beaduncan_ Work with my team at The London Centre for Intuitive Eating   Guest Information: Nadia Craddock - Instagram Twitter Nicola Haggett- Instagram Website Previous podcasts with Nadia Don’t Salt My Game  Part 1 & Part 2 The Body Protest Appearance Matters 

Welcome to this special series of Don’t Salt My Game celebrating the release of my new book How to Just Eat It. For the next several weeks, I’ll be posting two new episodes of the podcast (Tuesdays and Fridays) that correspond with a chapter of the book to help you take your learning further and deepen your intuitive eating practice. How To Just Eat It will be released on Thursday 7th January so make sure and pre order your copy now (links below). Episode 2 of this series will drop on Friday! In today’s episode I’m talking to the incredible Fiona Sutherland, a dietitian and yoga teacher, better known as The Mindful Dietitian, who is helping us build our Intuitive Eating Toolkit; a selection of skills and tools that help us lay the foundation for our intuitive eating practice.  In this episode we talk about: What acceptance is and isn’t and common misconceptions about acceptance How we can lean into uncomfortable feelings to help us heal our body image and relationship with food Why acceptance doesn’t mean we are OK with things like fatphobia or racism and other systems of oppression that harm bodies What exactly values are and how they differ to goals How we can find our core values and use them to steer us in the directions we want to move in How diet culture disconnects us from our values and moves us away from acceptance towards dissatisfaction I’m also excited to share a guided created activity by Tasha Bailey that helps us weather emotional storms and a definition for the glossary on page 36 of your book from Christy Harrison     Want to pre order your copy of How To Just Eat It? UK{Amazon} {Waterstones} {WH Smith} Australia{Booktopia) Worldwide with free shipping{Book Depository} Edited by Bea Duncan - @beaduncan_ Work with my team at The London Centre for Intuitive Eating Guest Information: Fiona Sutherland - Instagram Twitter Website Tasha Bailey - Instagram Twitter Website Christy Harrison - Instagram Twitter Website

With only a few short weeks left until How To Just Eat It hit book shops, I wanted to check in with my DSMG family to give you a teaser of what to expect from my new book! In this mini-sode I’m walking you through HTJEI, chapter-by-chapter to give you a flavour of what’s covered. I’m also spilling the beans on who some of my guest contributors are (spoiler; they’re all awesome) and letting you in on some of the activities in the book. I’m also sharing details of the upcoming How To Just Eat It takeover of Don’t Salt My Game; new episodes coming JAN! IIf you can’t wait for that though, you can head to @laurathomasphd on Instagram to watch my weekly Instagram lives, the first of which is Thursday 3rd December at 7pm. Want to pre order your copy of How To Just Eat It? UK {Amazon} {Waterstones} {WH Smith} Australia {Booktopia) Worldwide with free shipping {Book Depository} Edited by Bea Duncan - @beaduncan_

With only a few short weeks left until How To Just Eat It hit book shops, I wanted to check in with my DSMG family to give you a teaser of what to expect from my new book! In this mini-sode I’m walking you through HTJEI, chapter-by-chapter to give you a flavour of what’s covered. I’m also spilling the beans on who some of my guest contributors are (spoiler; they’re all awesome) and letting you in on some of the activities in the book.   I’m also sharing details of the upcoming How To Just Eat It takeover of Don’t Salt My Game; new episodes coming JAN! IIf you can’t wait for that though, you can head to @laurathomasphd on Instagram to watch my weekly Instagram lives, the first of which is Thursday 3rd December at 7pm.   Want to pre order your copy of How To Just Eat It?   UK {Amazon} {Waterstones} {WH Smith}   Australia {Booktopia) Worldwide with free shipping {Book Depository}   Edited by Bea Duncan - @beaduncan_

In this episode we get to hear from my good friend, Mckenna. She shares her experience with an eating disorder and some resources that have helped in her recovery process. Some resources she shared were...https://centerforchange.com/admissions/do-i-have-an-eating-disorder/https://centerforchange.com/resources/Podcasts: Food Psych by Christy Harrison, Nutrition Matters by Paige Smathers, Don't Salt My Game by Laura Thomas, Love Food by Julie Duffy Dillon, Dietitians Unplugged by Aaron Flores, Body Kindness by Rebecca Scritchfield, Intuitive Bites; Cut Through Nutrition; Love Food; Therapy Thoughts with Tiffany Roe; It’s Not About The Food with Dr. Stefani ReinoldBooks:Intuitive Eating, 4th edition (releasing June 2020) by Evelyn Tribole and Elyce ReschThe Intuitive Eating Workbook by Evelyn Tribole and Elyce ReschThe AntiDiet by Christy HarrisonJust Eat It by Laura Thomas PhDHealth at Every Size by Linda Bacon PhD8 Keys to Recovery from an Eating Disorder by Costin/GrabbThe Happiness Trap (regular and illustrated) by Russ/HarrisBinge Eating Disorder by Pershing/TurnerThe Body is Not an Apology by Sonya Renee TaylorBody Respect by Bacon & AphramorEating by the Light of the Moon by Dr. Anita JohnstonThings No One Will Tell Fat Girls by Jes BakerThe Beauty Myth by Naomi WolfBody Wars by Margo MaineInstagram pages:Beauty_RedefinedEvelyntriboleJameelajamildietitianannamollybcounselingdrcolleenreichmannjennifer_rollinheytiffanyroeBodyposipandaChr1styharrisonHgoodrichrdjessiehoffman_phddrjoshuawolrichGuidedeatingkatzavrdcenterforchangethe.intuitive.trainerdrjuliehanksbodyimagemovementbodypositivememesnedameganbray_dietitianhappilyfedmeg.boggsfoodandfearlessbodyimagewithbriYrfatfriendTastingabundanceBodyimage_therapistWillowshorecounselingReflectwholenessTheintuitiveanalystRedefining_wellnessPediatricnutritionrdPaigesmathersrdNutritionforhopethecrankytherapistthereallife_rdemilyfonnesbeck_rd,nourishedmindbodynewmoonrdimmaeatthatmarcirdbodyimagemovementcorrievanhorne.lpcc.rdnourishandeatallisonkimmeyintuitiveeatingrdkayleetremelling_rd

In this episode, Lillian shares a conversation with Molly Bahr, a licensed mental health counselor who specializes in chronic dieting, eating disorders, and body image. Molly runs the popular Instagram account @MollyBCounseling- https://www.instagram.com/mollybcounseling/ Instagram accounts that Molly recommends: 1. https://www.instagram.com/beauty_redefined/ 2. https://www.instagram.com/chr1styharrison/ 3. https://www.instagram.com/bodyimagewithbri/ 4. https://www.instagram.com/evelyntribole/ 5. https://www.instagram.com/bodyimage_therapist/ 6. https://www.instagram.com/thefuckitdiet/ Podcasts that Molly recommends: 1. Don't Salt My Game https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dont-salt-my-game-with-laura-thomas-phd/id1111787243 2. Dietitians Unplugged https://dietitiansunplugged.libsyn.com/ 3. Food Psych https://christyharrison.com/foodpsych 4. The Love Food Podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-love-food-podcast/id1076673018 Books Molly recommends: 1. Intuitive Eating https://www.amazon.com/Intuitive-Eating-4th-Anti-Diet-Revolutionary/dp/1250255198/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1589040332&sr=1-5 2. Health At Every Size https://www.amazon.com/Health-At-Every-Size-Surprising/dp/1935618253/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1589040376&sr=1-2 Molly's Counseling Website: https://www.mollybahrcounseling.com/

Food is fuel and so much more. It is ok that food connects us to those warm fuzzy things in life--friends, family, pleasure, and humanity. Want to make this step on your Food Peace Journey™? Listen here now to the latest Love Food Podcast episode featuring guest expert Elizabeth Armstrong @PCOStherapist. Subscribe and leave a review here in just seconds. This episode is brought to you by my courses: PCOS and Food Peace and Dietitians PCOS and Food Peace. You CAN make peace with food even with PCOS and I want to show you how. I want to learn more about you! I would love if you could take the 2020 Love Food survey: access it here: JulieDillonRD.com/Survey. Open until March 31, 2020. Check out my friend Summer Innanen's FREE Body Acceptance Masterclass. You will learn:  The 3 biggest mistakes people make when doing body acceptance work (and why they keep you stuck feeling bad about your body) Her 6-Part Framework for radically changing the way you feel about yourself and believing you are good enough regardless of your body size  Why it is possible for YOU (yes, YOU) to accept your body and feel more confident in who you are. Learn more about Summer's Masterclass (aff) here: JulieDillonRD.com/FREEmasterclass This episode's Dear Food letter: Dear Food, You have, and always will be, such a big part of life and identity. Growing up in an Indian household, you were everything - we would spend hours preparing delicious meals to eat and share with other people. My mum was an exceptional cook who loved nothing more than to research recipes to try out on me and her friends. Food, you are there in so many of my best childhood memories - going out for ice cream sundaes on the weekend, discovering the magic of baking, and making cheese toast as a midnight snack with my dad.  But now, at the age of 36, having battled with weight for as long as I can remember, and trying to figure out my PCOS, I realise that our relationship is really complicated. While you have brought me so much joy, you also come with a ton of fear and anxiety for me. I remember calorie counting with my mum in my early teens, being praised for controlling what I ate, and family members commenting on my body whether I had lost or gained weight. Food, I have starved myself of you so many times, and this always results in me punishing myself through binging and exercising. I'm tired of weight loss taking up so much of my headspace. I'm working really hard to get some neutrality on all of this but sometimes, even just noticing a shirt doesn't button up right anymore can set about a heap of negative thoughts. From  Working really hard Show Notes: Julie Dillon RD blog Link to subscribe to the Love Food’s Food Peace Syllabus. Be sure to follow Elizabeth Armstrong on Instagram: @PCOSTherapist Elizabeth's website: PCOStherapy.com Julie's episode on Don't Salt My Game with a PCOS deep dive: People with PCOS can totally eat birthday cake. Weight inclusive PCOS care from Laura Thomas Hunger So Wide and So Deep Intuitive Eating book (aff) and website Find an Eating Disorder Dietitian near you. Do you have a complicated relationship with food? I want to help! Send your Dear Food letter to LoveFoodPodcast@gmail.com.  Click here to leave me a review in iTunes and subscribe. This type of kindness helps the show continue!

In this episode we hear from Laura Thomas who is a registered nutritionist, specialising in intuitive eating. Hazel and Laura chat all about how to ditch diets for good, what intuitive eating actually means, weight stigma and the concept of body neutrality. Laura also hosts a podcast “Don't Salt My Game” calling out diet trends and myths, and has just released her debut book - JUST EAT IT. You can find more from Laura @laurathomasphd on Instagram.

Intuitive eating counselor and author Laura Thomas joins us to discuss her new book, Just Eat It; the problems with The Wellness Diet; why subtle levels of weight stigma are so hard to pinpoint and eradicate; why "emotional eating" and turning to food for comfort are falsely demonized in diet culture; why people in the nutrition field often struggle in their own relationships with food; and so much more. Plus, Christy answers a listener question about whether the 12-step model works for food issues. Laura Thomas, PhD is an AfN Registered Nutritionist and Certified Intuitive Eating Counsellor specialising in Intuitive Eating, Mindful Eating, weight inclusive and non-diet nutrition. She has a BSc in Health Sciences from the University of Aberdeen, a PhD in Nutritional Sciences from Texas A&M University, and completed her Post-Doctoral research at Cornell University in behaviour change. She is the host of Don’t Salt My Game podcast and was the Nutritionist for the 2017 BBC1 documentary Mind Over Marathon. She established the London Centre for Intuitive Eating in 2017 to help clients and train clinicians in Intuitive Eating. Her first book, Just Eat It, was published this month by Bluebird Books. Find her online at LauraThomasPhD.co.uk. This episode is brought to you by Poshmark, the easiest way to buy and sell fashion items. Sign up for a Poshmark account and get $5 off your first purchase with the code FOODPSYCH! Grab Christy's free guide, 7 simple strategies for finding peace and freedom with food, to start your intuitive eating journey. If you're ready to give up dieting once and for all, join Christy's Intuitive Eating Fundamentals online course! Ask your own question about intuitive eating, Health at Every Size, or eating disorder recovery at christyharrison.com/questions. To learn more about Food Psych and get full show notes and a transcript of this episode, go to christyharrison.com/foodpsych.

Christal sits down with Laura Thomas, Phd in Nutritional Sciences, Intuitive Eating Specialist and host of the “Don't Salt My Game” podcast is getting real about diet culture and how we can become more trusting of our bodies, how to tune into our hunger. Follow Laura: http://www.laurathomasphd.co.uk https://www.instagram.com/laurathomasphd/ https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/dont-salt-my-game-with-laura-thomas-phd/id1111787243?mt=2 Resources: The Joe Rogan Experience with Sleep Expert & Neuroscientist Matthew Walker https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/1109-matthew-walker/id360084272?i=1000409857303&mt=2

This week we discuss unplugging, #HagridHannah, and exercise, baby!   This week’s episode is sponsored by FabFitFun. Check out www.FABFITFUN.com and use the code "SAF"for $10 off your first box, making it only $39.99. #FabFitFunPartner   This episode of She’s All Fat is also sponsored by TomboyX! She’s All Fat listeners get an extra 15% off at tomboyx.com/SAF15. Ditch whatever you’re wearing for a pair of TomboyX underwear!   We’ll be at Flyover Fest, a fashion, politics and culture festival focused on inclusion, and equal representation taking place in Downtown Iowa City on April 27th and 28th. Tickets here! SAF listeners can get a discount by entering our code ”ShesAllFatAtFlyover” at checkout.  See you in Iowa!   Support AllGo, a review platform for plus-size users to rate the comfort & accessibility of places, from restaurants to theaters & gyms to airlines. Follow them on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram.   Help us out by filling out this survey!   Every week, Sophie and April listen to a pump up song to get them ready to record! Listen to this week’s pump up song here.   To get access to further reading on today’s topics and some stuff we didn’t have time for, join our Patreon!   Need advice? Email/send voice memo to fyi@shesallfatpod.com.   Follow us! Twitter / Instagram / Get updates!   You can find us on: Apple Podcasts / Stitcher / Google Play / Pocket Cast / PlayerFM / CastBox   Need something else? Check out our site: shesallfatpod.com   Mentioned in this episode:   I’m Obsessed: New Drake Song. Cardi B & Kehlani. On Retweeting. Lindy West on Deleting Twitter.  The Light Phone. Ableist Terms to Avoid.  Patreon Scholarship Form! Don’t Salt My Game.   The Meat Of It: Fat Girls Hiking. Fat Kid Dance Party.

*****T/W: mention of calorie counting, exercise abuse, discussion of weight, and eating disorders***** LIVING IN THIS SOCIETY IS RUFF STUFF, 4 real. We are so bombarded with toxic information all of the time, that make us feel bad about our bodies. DUH THIS IS AN UNEQUAL PROCESS AND SO WE R HERE TO TALK ABT THAT INEQUITY AND ALSO ABT HOW TO COMBAT THAT SHIZA. Special guest Olivia has some amazing resources she'd like you to check out! Laura Thomas, PhD, Registered Dietician Instagram: laurathomasphd Podcast: Don’t Salt My Game - talks about intuitive eating and diet culture Check out episode 73 “The inside Scoop on Intuitive Eating with Evelyn Tribole” for a introduction to intuitive eating. Christy Harrison Registered dietician Podcast: Food Psych - Her podcast “challenges diet culture in all its forms - including restrictive behaviors that often masquerade as health and wellness. Check out episodes 140-143 140 “How to Heal from Over exercise and Find Joyful Movement” 141 “Pleasure, Sex and Body Acceptance with Dawn Serra” 142 “ Breaking Free from Fatphobia and Gender Norms with Caleb Luna” 143 “Body Politics and Ati-Diet Activism with Maria Paredes” BODY POLITICS: Melissa Fabello Twitter @fyeahmfabello Body politics, Beauty culture and eating disorders. PhD candidate in human sexuality. Dr. Charlotte Cooper Twitter @thebeefer Psychotherapist and author of “Fat Activism: A Radical Social Movement” Gloria Lucas Twitter @NalgonaPride Creator of Nalgona Positivity Pride - devoted to helping people of color heal from diet culture. She talks about the connection between eating disorders and historical trauma, colonialism, and oppression Music this week by the incredible Nikki Lynette, the song is "my mind ain't right." Check her out! http://nikkilynette.com/ Theme music as always by Brandon Payton-Carrillo

Do you know dieting doesn't work, and yet you're finding yourself feeling drawn to dieting during times of stress? Are certain necessary food restrictions pushing you towards a deprivation mindset? Listen now while I discuss some strategies with Laura Thomas on how to manage this part of the Food Peace™ journey. Subscribe and leave a review here in just seconds. This episode is brought to you by my online course, Your Step-by-Step Guide to PCOS and Food Peace™. Enrollment open until January 31st 2018. You CAN make peace with food even with PCOS and I want to show you how. Product links may be affiliate. If you click and make a purchase, there's no extra cost to you. Episode's Key Points: You're not the failure... the DIET is the failure! During stressful times, we may find ourselves drawn back to dieting, even though we know that it doesn't work long-term. Laura Thomas joins us to break down this letter and to help the writer find some solutions! Honor how far you've come! All progress is good progress, so be compassionate about how much work you've already done. Do your best not to be hard on yourself if you're not exactly where you want to be in this moment. Remember, there's no way to do intuitive eating perfectly, and in fact, intuitive eating is about moving away from perfection around eating altogether. Diet culture is deeper than food! Kristin Neff's work around self-compassion might be really helpful in being kind to yourself in this process. We can't eat mindfully at all times!! We can only be mindful of so many things at once, and we're busy people. We have lots to think about, so don't get down on yourself if some of your eating occurs when you're distracted. Stress happens, and sometimes we have to make eating choices that don't add to our stress. Sometimes that means you might be grabbing convenience foods, and they might not make your body feel at 100%, but you have to prioritize things! You're doing the best you can. Take a multivitamin if you're concerned that you aren't going to get your nutrients through your current food choices. In the long-term, work on the self-judgment and perfectionistic tendencies. In the short-term, go out and get convenient and filling snacks that fit in your budget (think peanut butter, granola, or hummus!). Processed, frozen food is a tool in your food arsenal! Work on the judgment around those foods, and embrace them as an option in your life. The most important thing to remember is that there's no such thing as a perfect intuitive eater! Having flexibility in your eating behavior will protect you against diet mentality, so embrace it. Take care of yourself the best you can. Online community is important! In-person folks might not be on board with the anti-diet movement, but Instagram, podcasts, and other social media platforms can act as valuable support. Show Notes: Julie Dillon RD blog Link to subscribe to the weekly FREE Food Peace™ Newsletter. It is sent out every Tuesday morning. By signing up, I will also send you Love Food's Food Peace™ Syllabus. Evelyn Tribole's work Elyse Resch's work Kristin Neff's work around self-compassion ---> This week's Food Peace Syllabus addition #1 Laura's podcast, Don't Salt My Game ---> This week's Food Peace Syllabus addition #2 Find Lauren's work on her website and on Instagram Eating Disorder Dietitians can help your Food Peace™ journey. Get access to one near you here. Do you have a complicated relationship with food? I want to help! Send your Dear Food letter to LoveFoodPodcast@gmail.com.  Click here to leave me a review in iTunes and subscribe. This type of kindness helps the show continue! Thank you for listening to the Love, Food series.

I’m really excited to introduce you to disordered eating dietician Haley Goodrich. Both Haley and I suffer from anxiety and Haley shares some great advice on how she deals with that, as well as her perfectionist tendencies that in her college days manifested as issues with food and over exercise. We discuss how they can morph and show up in other ways even when you've developed a healthy relationship to food. We also talk about the experience of being a nutrition student and how that can really fuel weirdness around food if you have perfectionist tendencies or are predisposed to it in some way. There's also a level of cognitive dissonance where on one hand you’re trying to be the perfect nutrition student, but on the other hand you want to drink beer and eat cake; something that intuitive eating is flexible enough to incorporate but traditional nutrition and dietetics models are way too rigid for which can again cause a lot of anxiety if you’re a perfectionist. Haley is also a total nutrition boss and she shares some advice for really anyone who wants to be an entrepreneur but especially people who want to work within the health at every size, intuitive eating, and non-diet paradigm. Show Sponsor: Symprove probiotics are offering Don’t Salt My Game listeners a 12 week supply for £120, so just a tenner a week, saving yourself almost 40 quid! To order, just call them up on 01252 413600 and quote DSMG and they ship it right to your door. Show Notes: {Haley's Website} {Haley on Facebook |Instagram| Twitter} {Inspird to Seek} {Baby Goats} {Pumpkin The Racoon} {Helping Hurricane Harvey victims} {Food Fight Intuitive Eating Course}(Use code 'DONTSALTMYGAME') {The London Podcast Festival Tickets}

Today I'm talking to body positive yoga teacher and writer, Lily Silverton about the myths surrounding what a 'yoga body' should look like and how the narrow version of yoga, stemming from the beauty myth and propagated by diet culture, fails to make room for for people who deviate from this oppressive norm. We also talk about the concept of Ahimsa and how Lily interprets this to mean making her classes a safe, body positive space for her students. Lastly we talk about how owning your own privilege doesn't mean you can't be body positive, but it does mean that you can be critical of how diet culture has co-opted this term and how it suppresses the voices of already marginalised people. It's about holding ourselves accountable & fighting for diversity & representation of ALL bodies, not just the ones that are already visible, not just the ones we find pretty. We also talk about how, like all social change, fighting for true body positivity, equality, and diversity is slow and we are only at the beginning and how conversations like these are necessary to chip away at the status quo. Lastly, Lily shares some of her favourite bopo yoga accounts to follow. This feels like a heavy conversation in a lot of way - probably because checking our privilege feels uncomfortable, but I hope we can all learn from this. I by no means am suggesting I'm close to perfect in how we talk about these issues, but I want to learn alongside you guys, and use this podcast to learn and grow together ✌️  Show Sponsor: Symprove probiotics are offering Don’t Salt My Game listeners a 12 week supply for £120, so just a tenner a week, saving yourself almost 40 quid! To order, just call them up on 01252 413600 and quote DSMG and they ship it right to your door. Show Notes: {Lily on Facebook | Instagram | Twitter} {All Body Yoga} {The Myth of the Yoga Body} {Amputee Yoga} {Skinny Shaming & Thin Privilege} {Lily's Interview w/ BodyPosiPanda} {My Interview w/ BodyPosiPanda}  {Naomi Wolf - The Beauty Myth} {Stoner Yoga} {Yours Truely Melly on Body Positivity} {Dana Falsetti} {Jessamyn Stanley} {Yoga Bodies Book} {Big Gal Yoga} {Morning Gloryville} {Omazie} {Body Positive Power} {The London Podcast Festival Tickets} {Thrive Festival Tickets} {Lily is an ambassador for the Choose Life Mat Project}