B2B Marketers on a Mission

How to Build a Winning Strategy for Your B2B Brand In a fast-paced business environment, marketers, agencies, and consultants must proactively help clients differentiate their brands in the marketplace. One way of doing this is by analyzing the strategy, messaging, and brand positioning, both for their own brands and key competitors. So how can teams conduct this kind of brand research and competitive analysis in a way that's insightful, efficient, and actionable for planning the next steps? Tune in as the B2B Marketers on Mission Podcast presents the Marketing DEMO Lab Series, where we sit down with Clay Ostrom (Founder, Map & Fire) and his SmokeLadder platform designed for brand research, messaging and positioning analysis, and competitive benchmarking. In this episode, Clay explained the platform's origins and features, emphasizing its role in analyzing brand positioning, core messaging, and competitive landscapes. He also stressed the importance of clear, consistent brand positioning and messaging, and how standardized make it easier to compare brands across multiple business values. Clay also highlighted the value of objective, data-driven analysis to identify brand strengths, weaknesses, and gaps, and how tools like SmokeLadder can save significant time in gathering insights to build trust with clients. He provided practical steps for generating, refining, and exporting brand messaging and analysis for internal or client-facing use. Finally, Clay also discussed how action items and recommendations generated from analysis can immediately support smart brand strategy decisions and expedite trust-building with clients. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4_o1PzF1Kk Topics discussed in episode: [1:31] The purpose behind building SmokeLadder and why it matters for B2B teams [12:00] A walkthrough of the SmokeLadder platform and how it works [14:51] SmokeLadder's core features [17:48] How positioning scores and category rankings are calculated [35:36] How differentiation and competitors are analyzed inside SmokeLadder [44:07] How SmokeLadder builds messaging and generates targeted personas [50:24] The key benefits and unique capabilities that set SmokeLadder apart Companies and links: Clay Ostrom Map & Fire SmokeLadder Transcript Christian Klepp  00:00 In an increasingly competitive B2B landscape, marketers, agencies and consultants, need to proactively find ways to help their clients stand out amidst the digital noise. One way of doing this is by analyzing the strategy, messaging and positioning of their own brands and those of their competitors. So how can they do this in a way that’s insightful, efficient and effective? Welcome to this first episode of the B2B Marketers in the Mission podcast Demo Lab Series, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp. Today, I’ll be talking to Clay Ostrom about this topic. He’s the owner and founder of the branding agency Map and Fire, and the creator of the platform Smoke Ladder that we’ll be talking about today. So let’s dive in. Christian Klepp  00:42 All right, and I’m gonna say Clay Ostrom. Welcome to this first episode of the Demo Lab Series. Clay Ostrom  00:50 I am super excited and very honored to be the first guest on this new series. It’s awesome. Christian Klepp  00:56 We are honored to have you here. And you know, let’s sit tight, or batten down the hatches and buckle up, and whatever other analogy you want to throw in there, because we are going to unpack a lot of interesting features and discuss interesting topics around the platform that you’ve built. And I think a good place to start, perhaps Clay before we start doing a walk through of the platform is, but let’s start at the very beginning. What motivated you to create this platform called Smoke Ladder. Clay Ostrom  01:31 So we should go all the way back to my childhood. I always dreamed of, you know, working on brand and positioning. You know, that was something I’ve always thought of since the early days, but no, but I do. I own an agency called Map and Fire, so I’ve been doing this kind of work for over 10 years now, and have worked with lots and lots of different kinds of clients, and over that time, developed different frameworks and a point of view about how to do this kind of work, and when the AI revolution kind of hit us all, it just really struck me that this was an opportunity to take a lot of that thinking and a lot of that, you know, again, my perspective on how to do this work and productize that and turn it into something that could be used by people when we’re not engaged with them, in some kind of service offering. So, so that was kind of the kernel of it. I actually have a background in computer science and product. So it was sort of this natural Venn diagram intersection of I can do some product stuff, I can do brand strategy stuff. So let’s put it together and build something. Christian Klepp  02:46 And the rest, as they say, is history. Clay Ostrom  02:49 The rest, as they say, is a lot of nights and weekends and endless hours slaving away at trying to build something useful. Christian Klepp  02:58 Sure, sure, that certainly is part of it, too. Clay Ostrom  03:01 Yeah. Christian Klepp  03:02 Let’s not keep the audience in suspense for too long here, right? Like, let’s start with the walk through. And before you share your screen, maybe I’ll set this up a little bit, right? Because you, as you said, like, you know, you’ve built this platform. It’s called Smoke Ladder, which I thought was a really clever name. It’s, you like to describe it as, like, your favorite SEO (Search Engine Optimization) tool, but for brand research and analysis. So I would say, like, walk us through how somebody would use this platform, like, whether they be a marketer that’s already been like in the industry for years, or is starting out, or somebody working at a brand or marketing agency, and how does the platform address these challenges or questions that people have regarding brand strategy, analysis and research? Clay Ostrom  03:49 Yeah, yeah. I use that analogy of the SEO thing, just because, especially early on, I was trying to figure out the best way to describe it to someone who hasn’t seen it before. I feel like it’s a, I’m not going to fall into the trap of saying, this is the only product like this, but it has its own unique twists with what it can do. And I felt like SEO tools are something everybody has touched at one point or another. So I was using this analogy of, it’s like the s, you know, Semrush of positioning and messaging or Ahrefs, depending on your if you’re a Coke or Pepsi person. But I always felt like that was just a quick way to give a little idea of the fact that it’s both about analyzing your own brand, but it’s also about competitive analysis and being able to see what’s going on in the market or in your landscape, and looking specifically at what your competitors are doing and what their strengths and weaknesses are. So does that resonate with you in terms of, like, a shorthand way, I will say, I don’t. I don’t say that. It’s super explicitly on the website, but it’s been in conversation. Christian Klepp  05:02 No, absolutely, absolutely, that resonated with me. The only part that didn’t resonate with me is that I’m neither a coke or a Pepsi person. I’m more of a ginger ale type of guy. I digress. But yeah, let’s what don’t you share your screen, and let’s walk through this, right? Like, okay, if a marketing person were like, use the platform to do some research on, perhaps that marketers, like own company and the competitors as well, right? Like, what would they do? Clay Ostrom  05:32 Yeah, so that’s, that is, like you were saying, there’s, sort of, I guess, a few different personas of people who would potentially use this. And initially I was thinking a little more about both in house, people who, you know, someone who’s working on a specific brand, digging really deep on their own brand, whether they’re, you know, the marketing lead or whatever, maybe they’re the founder, and then this other role of agency owners, or people who work at an agency where they are constantly having to look at new brands, new categories, and quickly get up to speed on what those brands are doing and what’s the competitive space look like, you know, for that brand. And that’s something that, if you work at an agency, which obviously we both have our own agencies, we do this stuff weekly. I mean, every time a new lead comes in, we have to quickly get up to speed and understand something about what they do. And one of the big gaps that I found, and I’d be curious to kind of hear your thoughts on this, but I’ve had a lot of conversations with other agency owners, and I think one of the biggest gaps is often that brands are just not always that great at explaining their own brand or positioning or differentiation to you, and sometimes they have some documentation around it, but a lot of times they don’t. A lot of it’s word of mouth, and that makes it really hard to do work for them. If whatever you’re doing for them, whether that’s maybe you are working on SEO or maybe you’re working on paid ads or social or content, you have to know what the brand is doing and kind of what they’re again, what their strengths and weaknesses are, so that you can talk about that. I mean, do you come across that a lot in your work? Christian Klepp  07:33 How do I say this without offending anybody? I find, I mean jokes aside, I find, more often than not, in the especially in the B2B space, which is an area that I operate in, I find 888 point five times out of 10. We are dealing with companies that have a they, have a very rude, rudimentary, like, framework of something that remotely resembles some form of branding. And I know that was a very long winded answer, but it’s kind of sort of there, but not really, if you know what I mean. Clay Ostrom  08:17 Yeah. Christian Klepp  08:17 And there have been other extreme cases where they’ve got the logo and the website, and that’s as far as their branding goals. And I would say that had they had all these, this discipline, like branding system and structure in place, then people like maybe people like you and I will be out on a job, right and it’s something, and I’m sure you’ve come across this, and we’ll probably dig into this later, but like you, it’s something I’ve come across several times, especially in the B2B space, where branding is not taken seriously until it becomes serious. I know that sounds super ironic, right, but, and it’s to the point of this platform, right, which we’re going to dig into in a second, but it’s, it’s things, for instance, positioning right, like, are you? Are you, in fact, strategically positioned against competitors? Is your messaging resonating with, I would imagine, especially in the B2B context, with the multiple group target groups that you have, or that your company is, is going after? Right? Is that resonating, or is this all like something that I call the internal high five? You’ve this has all been developed to please internal stakeholders and and then you take it to market, and it just does not, it just does not resonate with the target audience at all. Right? So there’s such a complex plethora of challenges here, right? That people like yourself and like you and I are constantly dealing with, and I think that’s also part of the reason why I would say a platform like this is important, because it helps to not just aggregate data. I mean, certainly it does that too, but it helps. To put things properly, like into perspective at speed. I think that might be, that might be something that you would have talked about later, but it does this at speed, because I think, from my own experience, one of the factors in our world that sometimes works against us is time, right? Clay Ostrom  10:19 No, I totally agree, yeah, and, you know, we’re lucky, I guess would be the word that we are often hired to work on a company strategy with them and help them clarify these things. Christian Klepp  10:33 Absolutely. Clay Ostrom  10:34 There are a million other flavors of agencies out there who are being hired to execute on work for a brand, and not necessarily being brought in to redefine, you know what the brand, you know they’re positioning and their messaging and some of these fundamental things, so they’re kind of stuck with whatever they get. And like you said, a lot of times it’s not much. It might be a logo and a roughly put together website, and maybe not a whole lot else. So, yeah, but I think your other point about speed is that was a huge part of this. I think the market is only accelerating right now, because it’s becoming so much easier to start up new companies and new brands and new products. And now we’ve got vibe coding, so you can technically build a product in a day, maybe launch it the next day, start marketing it, you know, by the weekend. And all of this is creating noise and competition, and it’s all stuff that we have to deal with as marketers. We have to understand the landscape. We’ve got to quickly be able to analyze all these different brands, see where the strengths and weaknesses are and all that stuff. So… Christian Klepp  11:46 Absolutely. Clay Ostrom  11:46 But, yeah, that, I think that the speed piece is a huge part of this for sure. Christian Klepp  11:51 Yeah. So, so we’re okay, so we’re on the I guess this, this will probably be the homepage. So just walk us through what, what a marketing person would do if they want to use this platform, yeah? Clay Ostrom  12:00 So the very first thing you do when you come in, and this was when I initially conceived of this product, one of the things that I really wanted was the ability to have very quick feedback, be able to get analysis for whatever brand you’re looking at, you know, right away to be able to get some kind of, you know, insight or analysis done. So the first thing you can do, and you can do this literally, from the homepage of the website, you can enter in a URL for a brand, come into the product, even before you’ve created an account, you can come in and you can do an initial analysis, so you can put in whatever URL you’re looking at, could be yours, could be a competitor, and run that initial analysis. What we’re looking at here, this is, if you do create an account, this is, this becomes your, as we say, like Home Base, where you can save brands that you’re looking at. You can see your history, all that good stuff. And it just gives you some quick bookmarks so that you can kind of flip back and forth between, maybe it’s your brand, maybe it’s some of the competitors you’re looking at and then it gives you just some quick, kind of high level directional info. And I kind of break it up into these different buckets. Clay Ostrom  13:23 And again, I’d love to kind of hear if this is sort of how you think about it, too. But there’s sort of these different phases when you’re working on a brand. And again, this is sort of from an agency perspective, but you first got the sort of the research and the pitch piece. So this is before maybe you’re even working with them. You’re trying to get an understanding of what they do. Then we have discovery and onboarding, where we’re digging in a little bit deeper. We’re trying to really put together, what does the brand stand for, what are their strengths and weaknesses? And then we have the deeper dive, the strategy and differentiation. And this is where we’re really going in and getting more granular with the specific value points that they offer, doing some of that messaging analysis, finding, finding some of the gaps of the things that they’re talking about or not talking about, and going in deeper. So it kind of break it up into these buckets, based on my experience of how we engage with clients. Does that? Does that make sense to you, like, does that? Christian Klepp  14:28 It does make sense, I think. But what could be helpful for the audience is because this, this almost looks like it’s a pre cooked meal. All right, so what do we do we try another I mean, I think you use Slack for the analysis. Why don’t we use another brand, and then just pop it into that analysis field, and then see what it comes out with. Clay Ostrom  14:51 So the nice thing about this is, if you are looking at a brand that’s been analyzed, you’re going to get the data up really quickly. It’ll be basically pop up instantly. But you can analyze a brand from scratch as well. Just takes about a minute or so, basically, to kind of do some of the analysis. So for the sake of a demo, it’s a little easier just to kind of look at something that we’ve got in there. But if it’s a brand that you know, maybe you’re looking at a competitor for one of your brands, you know, there’s a good chance, because we’ve got about 6000 brands that we’ve analyzed in here, that there’s a good chance there’ll be some info on them. But so this is pipe drive. So whoever’s not familiar Pipedrive is, you know, it’s a CRM  (Customer Relationship Management), it’s, it’s basically, you know, it’s a lighter version of a HubSpot or Salesforce basically track deals and opportunities for business, but this so I flipped over. I don’t know if it was clear there, but I flipped over to this brand brief tab. And this is where we we get, essentially, a high level view of some key points about the brand and and I think about this as this would be something that you would potentially share with a client if you were, you know, working with them and you wanted to review the brand with them and make sure that your analysis is on point, but you’ll see it’s kind of giving you some positioning scores, where you rank from a category perspective, message clarity, and then we’ve got things like a quick overview, positioning summary, who their target persona is, in this case, sales manager, sales operation lead, and some different value points. And then it starts to get a little more granular. We get into like key competitors, Challenger brands. We do a little SWOT (Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, and Threats) analysis, and then maybe one of the more important parts is some of these action items. So what do we do with this? Yeah, and obviously, these are, these are starting points. This is not, it’s not going to come in and, you know, instantly be able to tell you strategically, exactly what to do, but it’s going to give you some ideas of based on the things we’ve seen. Here are some reasonable points that you might want to be looking at to, you know, improve the brand. Make it make it stronger. Christian Klepp  17:13 Gotcha. Gotcha. Now, this is all great clay, but like, I think, for the benefit of the audience, can we scroll back up, please. And let’s just walk through these one by one, because I think it’s important for the audience/potential future users,/ customers of Smoke Ladder, right? To understand, to understand this analysis in greater depth, and also, like, specifically, like, let’s start with a positioning score right, like, out of 100 like, what is this? What is this based on? And how was this analyzed? Let’s start with that. Clay Ostrom  17:48 Yeah, and this is where the platform really started. And I’m going to actually jump over to the positioning tab, because this will give us the all the detail around this particular feature. But this is, this was where I began the product this. I kind of think of this as being, in many ways, sort of the heart and soul of it. And when I mentioned earlier about this being based on our own work and frameworks and how we approach this, this is very much the case with this. This is, you know, the approach we use with the product is exactly how we work with clients when we’re evaluating their positioning. And it’s, it’s basically, it’s built off a series of scores. And what we have here are 24 different points of business value, which, if we zoom in just a little bit down here, we can see things like reducing risk, vision, lowering cost, variety, expertise, stability, etc. So there’s 24 of these that we look at, and it’s meant to be a way that we can look across different brands and compare and contrast them. So it’s creating, like, a consistent way of looking at brands, even if they’re not in the same category, or, you know, have slightly different operating models, etc. But what we do is we go in and we score every brand on each of these 24 points. And if we scroll down here a little bit, we can see the point of value, the exact score they got, the category average, so how it compares against, you know, all the other brands we’ve analyzed, and then a little bit of qualitative information about why they got the score. Christian Klepp  19:27 Sorry, Clay, Can I just jump in for a second so these, these attributes, or these key values that you had in the graph at the top right, like, are these consistent throughout regardless of what brand is being analyzed, or the least change. Clay Ostrom  19:42 It’s consistent. Christian Klepp  19:43 Consistent? Clay Ostrom  19:44 Yeah, and that was one of the sort of strategic decisions we had to make with the product. Was, you know, there’s a, maybe another version of this, where you do different points depending on maybe the category, or, you know, things like that. But I wanted to do it consistent because, again, it allows us to look at every brand through the same lens. It doesn’t mean that every brand you know there are certain points of value that just aren’t maybe relevant for a particular brand, and that’s fine, they just won’t score as highly in those but at least it gives us a consistent way to look at so when you’re looking at 10 different competitors, you know you’ve got a consistent way to look at them together,. Christian Klepp  20:26 Right, right, right. Okay, okay, all right, thanks for that. Now let’s go down to the next section there, where you’ve got, like this table with like four different columns here. So you mentioned that these are being scored against other brands in their category. Like, can you share it with the audience? Like, how many other brands are being analyzed here? Clay Ostrom  20:51 Yeah, well, it depends on the category. So again, we’ve got six, you know, heading towards 7000 brands that we’ve analyzed collectively. Each category varies a little bit, but, you know, some categories, we have more brands than others. But what this allows us to do is, again, to quickly look at this and say, okay, for pipe drive, a big focus for pipe drive is organization, simplification. You know, one of their big value props is we’re an easier tool to use than Salesforce or HubSpot. You can get up to speed really quickly. You don’t have all the setup and configurations and all that kind of stuff. So this is showing us that, yes, like their messaging, their content, their brand, does, in fact, do a good job of making it clear that simplicity is a big part of pipe drive’s message. And they do that by talking about it a lot in their messaging, having case studies, having testimonials, all these things that support it. And that’s how we come up with these scores. Is by saying, like the brand emphasizes these points well, they talk about it clearly, and that’s what we base it on. Christian Klepp  22:04 Okay, okay. Clay Ostrom  22:06 But as you come, I was just gonna say as you come down here, you can see, so the green basically means that they score well above average for that particular point. Yellow is, you know, kind of right around average, or maybe slightly above, and then red means that they’re below average for that particular point. So for example, like variety of tools, they don’t emphasize that as much with pipe drive, maybe compared to, again, like a Salesforce or a HubSpot that has a gazillion tools, pipe drive, that’s not a big focus for them. So they don’t score as highly there, but you can kind of just get a quick view of, okay, here are the things that they’re really strong with, and here are the things that maybe they’re, you know, kind of weak or below average. Christian Klepp  22:58 Yeah, yeah. Well, that’s certainly interesting, because I, you know, I’ve, I’ve used the, I’ve used the platform for analyzing some of my clients, competitor brands. And, you know, when I’m looking at this, like analysis with the scoring, with the scoring sheet, it, I think it will also be interesting perhaps in future, because you’ve got a very detailed breakdown of, okay, the factors and how they’re scored, and what the brand value analysis is also, because, again, in the interest of speed and time, it’d be great if the platform can also churn out maybe a one to two sentence like, summary of what is this data telling us, right? Because I’m thinking back to my early days as a product manager, and we would spend hours, like back then on Excel spreadsheets. I’m dating myself a little bit here, but um, and coming up with this analysis and charts, but presenting that to senior management, all they wanted to know was the one to two sentence summary of like, come on. What are you telling me with all these charts, like, what is the data telling you that we need to know? Right? Clay Ostrom  24:07 I know it’s so funny. We again, as strategists and researchers, we love to nerd out about the granular details, but you’re right. When you’re talking to a leader at a business, it does come down to like, okay, great. What do we do? And so, and I flipped back over to slacks. I knew I had already generated this but, but we’re still in the positioning section here, but we have this get insights feature. So basically it will look at all those scores and give you kind of, I think, similar to what you’re describing. Like, here’s three takeaways from what we’re seeing. Okay, okay, great, yeah, so we don’t want to leave you totally on your own to have to figure it all out. We’ll give you, give you a little helping hand. Christian Klepp  24:53 Yeah. You don’t want to be like in those western movies, you’re on your own kid. Clay Ostrom  24:59 Yeah. We try not to strand you again. There’s a lot of data here. I think that’s one of the strengths and and challenges with the platform, is that we try to give you a lot of data. And for some people, you may not want to have to sift through all of it. You might want just sort of give me the three points here. Christian Klepp  25:19 Absolutely, absolutely. And at the very least they can start pointing you in the right direction, and then you could be, you could then, like, through your own initiative, and perhaps dig a little bit deeper and perhaps find some other insights that may be, may be relevant, right? Clay Ostrom  25:35 Totally. Christian Klepp  25:36 Hey, it’s Christian Klepp here. We’ll get back to the episode in a second. But first, I’d like to tell you about a new series that we’re launching on our show. As the B2B landscape evolves, marketers need to adapt and leverage the latest marketing tools and software to become more efficient. Enter B2B Marketers on a Mission Marketing Demo Lab where experts discuss the latest tools and software that empower you to become a better B2B marketer. Tune in as we chat with product experts. Provide unbiased product reviews, give advice and deliver insights into real world applications and actionable tips on tools and technologies for B2B marketing. Subscribe to the Marketing Demo Lab, YouTube channel and B2B Marketers on a Mission, on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Christian Klepp  26:21 All right. Now, back to the show, if we can, if we could jump back, sorry, to the, I think it was the brand brief, right? Like, where we where we started out, and I said, let’s, let’s dig deeper. Okay, so then, then we have, okay, so we talked about positioning score. Now we’re moving on to category rank and message clarity score. What does that look like? Clay Ostrom  26:41 Yeah. So the category rank is, it’s literally just looking at the positioning score that you’ve gotten for the brand and then telling you within this category, where do you sort of fall in the ranking, essentially, or, like, you know, how do we, you know, for comparing the score against all the competitors, where do you fall? So you can see, with Slack, they’re right in the middle. And it’s interesting, because with a product like Slack, even though we all now know what slack is and what it does and everything. Christian Klepp  27:18 Yeah. Clay Ostrom  27:19 The actual messaging and content that they have now, I think maybe doesn’t do as good of a job as it maybe did once upon a time, and it’s gotten as products grow and brands grow, they tend to get more vague, a little more broad with what they talk about, and that kind of leads to softer positioning. So that’s sort of what we’re seeing reflected here. And then the third score is the message clarity score, which we can jump into, like, a whole different piece. Christian Klepp  27:48 Four on a tennis not a very high score, right? Clay Ostrom  27:52 Yeah. And again, I think it’s a product, of, we can kind of jump into that section. Christian Klepp  27:57 Yeah, let’s do that, yeah. Clay Ostrom  27:59 But it’s, again, a product, I think of Slack being now a very mature product that is has gotten sort of a little vague, maybe a little broader, with their messaging. But the message clarity score, we basically have kind of two parts to this on the left hand side are some insights that we gather based on the messaging. So what’s your category, quick synopsis of the product. But then we also do some things, like… Christian Klepp  28:33 Confusing part the most confusing. Clay Ostrom  28:36 Honestly to me, as I get I’d love to hear your experience with this, but coming into a new brand, this is sometimes one of the most enlightening parts, because it shows me quickly where some gaps in what we’re talking about, and in this case, just kind of hits on what we were just saying a minute ago. Of the messaging is overloaded with generic productivity buzzwords, fails to clearly differentiate how Slack is better than email or similar tools, etc. But also, this is another one that I really like, and I use this all the time, which is the casual description. So rather than this technical garbage jargon, you know, speak, just give me. Give it to me in plain English, like we’re just chatting. And so this description of it’s a workplace chat app for teams to message, collaborate, share files. Like, okay, cool. Like, yeah, you know, I get it. Yeah, I already know what slack is. But if I didn’t, that would tell me pretty well. Christian Klepp  29:33 Absolutely, yeah, yeah. No, my experience with this is has been, you know, you and I have been in the branding space for a while. So for the trained eye, when you look at messaging, you’ll know if it’s good or not, right. And we come I mean, I’m sure you do the same clay, but I also come to my own like conclusions based on experience of like, okay, so why do I think that that’s good messaging, or why do I think that that’s confusing messaging? Or it falls short, and why and how can that be improved? But it’s always good to have validation with either with platforms like this, where you have a you have AI, or you have, you have a software that you can use that analyzes, like, for example, like the messaging on a website, and it dissects that and says, Well, okay, so this is what they’re getting, right? So there’s a scoring for that, so it’s in the green, and then this is, this is where it gets confusing, right? So even you run that through, you run that through the machine, and the machine analyzes it as like, Okay, we can’t clearly, clearly define what it is they’re doing based on the messaging, right? And for me, that’s always a it’s good. It’s almost like getting a second doctor’s opinion, right? And then you go, Aha. So I we’ve identified the symptoms now. So let’s find the penicillin, right? Like, let’s find the remedy for this, right? Clay Ostrom  30:56 Yeah, well, and I like what you said there, because part of the value, I think, with this is it’s an objective perspective on the brand, so it doesn’t have any baggage. It’s coming in with fresh eyes, the same way a new customer would come into your website, where they don’t know really much about you, and they have to just take what you’re giving at face value about what you present. And we as people working on brands get completely blinded around what’s actually working, what’s being communicated. There’s so much that we take for granted about what we already know about the brand. And this comes in and just says, Okay, I’m just, I’m just taking what you give me, and I’m going to tell you what I see, and I see some gaps around some of these things. You know, I don’t have the benefit of sitting in your weekly stand up meeting and hearing all the descriptions of what you’re actually doing. Christian Klepp  31:59 I’m sorry to jump in. I’m interested to know, like, just, just based on what we’ve been reviewing so far, like, what has your experience been showing this kind of analysis to clients, and how do they respond to some of this data, for example, that you know, you’re walking us through right now? Clay Ostrom  32:18 Yeah, I think it’s been interesting. Honestly, I think it can sometimes feel harsh. And I think again, as someone who’s both run an agency and also built worked on brands, we get attached to our work on an emotional level. Christian Klepp  32:42 Absolutely. Clay Ostrom  32:42 Even if we think about it as, you know, this is just work, and it’s, you know, whatever, we still build up connections with our work and we want it to be good. And so I think there’s sometimes a little bit of a feeling of wow, like that’s harsh, or I would have expected or thought we would have done better or scored better in certain areas, but that is almost always followed up with but I’m so glad to know where, where we’re struggling, because now I can fix it. I can actually know what to focus on to fix, and that, to me, is what it’s all about, is, yes, there’s a little bit of feelings attached to some of these things, maybe, but at the end of the day, we really want it to be good. We want it to be clear. We don’t want to be a 4 out of 10. We want to be a 10 out of 10. And what specifically do we need to do to get there? And that’s really what we’re trying to reveal with this. So I think, you know, everybody’s a little different, but I would say the reactions are typically a mix of that. It’s like, maybe an ouch, but a Oh, good. Let’s work on it. Christian Klepp  33:55 Absolutely, absolutely. Okay. So we’ve got brand summary, we’ve got fundamentals, then quality of messaging is the other part of it, right? Clay Ostrom  34:02 So, yeah, so this, this is, this is where the actual 4 out of 10 comes. We have these 10 points that we look at and we say, Okay, are you communicating these things clearly? Are you communicating who your target customer is, your category, your offering, where you’re differentiated benefits? Do you have any kind of concrete claim about what you do to support you know what you’re what you’re selling? Is the messaging engaging? Is it concise? You’ll see here a 7% on concise. That’s basically telling us that virtually no brands do a good job of being concise. Only about 7% get a green check mark on this, and kind of similar with the jargon and the vague words big struggle points with almost every brand. Christian Klepp  34:55 Streamline collaboration. Clay Ostrom  34:58 So we can see here with Slack. You know some of the jargon we got, KPIs (Key Performance Indicators), MQLs (Marketing Qualified Lead), if you’re in the space, you could argue like, oh, I kind of know what those things are. But depending on your role, you may not always know. In something like Salesforce marketing cloud, unless you’re a real Salesforce nerd, you probably have no idea what that is. But again, it’s just a way to quickly identify some of those weak points, things that we could improve to make our message more clear. Christian Klepp  35:27 Yes, yes. Okay, so that was the messaging analysis correct? Clay Ostrom  35:33 Yeah. Christian Klepp  35:33 Yeah. Okay. So what else have we got? Clay Ostrom  35:36 Yeah, so I think one other thing we could look at just for a sec, is differentiation, and this is this kind of plays off of what we looked at a minute ago with the positioning scores. But this is a way for us to look head to head with two different brands. So in this case, we’ve got Slack in the red and we’ve got Discord in the greenish blue. And I think of these, these patterns, as sort of the fingerprint of your brand. So where you Where are you strong? Where are you weak? And if we can overlay those two fingerprints on top of each other, we can see, where do we have advantages, and where does our competitor have advantages? So if we come down, we can sort of see, and this is again, for the nerds like me, to be able to come in and go deep, do kind of a deep dive on specifically, why did, why does Discord score better than Slack in certain areas. And at the bottom here we can see a kind of a quick summary. So slack is stronger in simplification, saving time, Discord has some better messaging around generating revenue, lowering costs, marketability. But again, this gives us a way to think about what are the things we want to double down on? So what do we want to actually be known for in the market? Because we can’t be known for everything. You know, buyers can maybe only remember a couple things about us. What are those couple things where we’re really strong, where we really stand out, and we’ve got some separation from the competitors. Christian Klepp  37:18 Right, okay, okay, just maybe we take a step back here, because I think this is great. It’s very detailed. It gets a bit granular, but I think it’s also going back to a conversation that you and I had previously about, like, Okay, why is it so important to be armed with this knowledge, especially if you’re in the marketing role, or perhaps even an agency talking to a potential client going in there already armed with the information about their competitors. And we were talking about this being a kind of like a trust building mechanism, right? For lack of a better description, right? Clay Ostrom  38:03 Yeah, I think to me, what I like about this, and again, this does come out of 10 years of doing work, this kind of work with clients as well, is it’s so easy to fall into a space of soft descriptions around things like positioning and just sort of using vague, you know, wordings or descriptions, and when you can actually put a number on it, which, again, it’s subjective. This isn’t. This isn’t an objective metric, but it’s a way for us to compare and contrast. It allows us to have much more productive conversations with clients, where we can say we looked at your brand, we we what based on our analysis, we see that you’re scoring a 10 and a 9 on simplicity and organization, for example. Is that accurate to you like do you think that’s what you all are emphasizing the most? Does that? Does that resonate and at the same time, we can say, but your competitors are really focused on there. They have a strong, strong message around generating revenue and lowering costs for their customers. Right now, you’re not really talking about that. Is that accurate? Is that like, what you is that strategically, is that what you think you should be doing so really quickly, I’ve now framed a conversation that could have been very loose and kind of, you know, well, what do you think your strategy is about? What do you know? And instead, I can say, we see you being strong in these three points. We see your competitors being strong in these three points. What do you think about that? And I think that kind of clarity just makes the work so much more productive with clients, or just again, working on your own brand internally. So what do you think about that kind of perspective? Christian Klepp  40:08 Yeah, no, no, I definitely agree with that. It’s always and I’ve been that type of person anyway that you know you go into a especially with somebody that hasn’t quite become a client yet, right? One of the most important things is also, how should I put this? Certainly the trust building part of it needs to be there. The other part is definitely a demonstration of competence and ability, but it’s also that you’ve been proactive and done your homework, versus like, Okay, I’m I’m just here as an order taker, right? And let’s just tell me what to do, and I’ll do it right? A lot and especially, I think this has been a trend for a long time already, but a lot of the clients that I’ve worked with now in the past, they want to, they’re looking for a partner that’s not just thinking with them, it’s someone that’s thinking ahead of them. And this type of work, you know what we’re seeing here on screen, this is the type of work that I would consider thinking ahead of them, right? Clay Ostrom  41:18 No, I agree. I think you framed that really well. Of we’re trying to build trust, because if we’re going to make any kind of recommendations around a change or a shift, they have to believe that we know what we’re talking about, that we’re competent, that we’ve done the work. And I think I agree with you. I think like this, it’s kind of funny, like we all, I think, on some base level, are attracted to numbers and scores. It just gives us something to latch on to. But I think it also, like you said, it gives you a feeling that you’ve done your work, that you’ve done your homework, you’ve studied, you’ve you’ve done some analysis that they themselves may have never done on this level. And that’s a big value. Christian Klepp  42:08 Yes, and a big part of the reason just to, just to build on what you said, a big part of the reason why they haven’t done this type of work is because it’s not so much. The cost is certainly one part of it, but it’s the time, it’s a time factor and the resource and the effort that needs to be put into it. Because, you know, like, tell me if you’ve never heard this one before, but there are some, there are some companies that we’ve been working with that don’t actually have a clearly, like, you know, a clear document on who their their target personas are, yeah, or their or their ICPs, never mind the buyer’s journey map. They don’t, they don’t even have the personas mapped out, right? Clay Ostrom  42:52 100% Yeah, it’s, and it’s, I think you’re right. It’s, it’s a mix of time and it’s a mix of just experience where, if you are internal with a brand, you don’t do this kind of work all the time. You might do it at the beginning. Maybe you do a check in every once in a while, but you need someone who’s done this a lot with a lot of different brands so that they can give you guidance through this kind of framework. But so it’s, you know, so some of it is a mix of, you know, we don’t have the time always to dig in like this. But some of it is we don’t even know how to do it, even if we did have the time. So it’s hopefully giving, again, providing some different frameworks and different ways of looking at it. Christian Klepp  43:41 Absolutely, absolutely. So okay, so we’ve gone through. What is it now, the competitor comparison. What else does the platform provide us that the listeners and the audience should be paying attention to here? Clay Ostrom  43:55 So I’ll show you two more quick things. So one is this message building section. So this is… Christian Klepp  44:03 Are you trying to put me out of a job here Clay? Clay Ostrom  44:07 Well, I’ll say this. So far in my experience with this, it’s not going to put us out of a job, but it is going to hopefully make our job easier and better. It’s going to make us better at the work we do. And that’s really, I think that’s, I think that’s kind of, most people’s impression of AI at this point is that it’s not quite there to replace us, but it’s sure, certainly can enhance what we do. Christian Klepp  44:36 Yeah, you’ll excuse me, I couldn’t help but throw that one out. Clay Ostrom  44:38 Yeah, I know, trust me, I’m this. It’s like I’m building a product that, in a sense, is undercutting, you know, the work that I do. So it is kind of a weird thing, but this message building section, which is a new part of the platform. It will come in, and you can see on the right hand side. And there’s sort of a quick summary of all these different elements that we’ve already analyzed. And then it’s going to give you some generated copy ideas, including, if I zoom in a little bit here, we’ve got an eyebrow category. This is again for Slack. It’s giving us a headline idea, stay informed without endless emails. Sub headline call to action, three challenges that your customers are facing, and then three points about your solution that help address those for customers. So it’s certainly not writing all of your copy for you, but if you’re starting from scratch, or you’re working on something new, or even if you’re trying to refresh a brand. I think this can be helpful to give you some messaging that’s hopefully clear. That’s something that I think a lot of messaging misses, especially in B2B, it’s, it’s not always super clear, like what you even do. Christian Klepp  45:56 Don’t get me started. Clay Ostrom  45:59 So hopefully it’s clear. It’s, you know, again, it’s giving you some different ideas. And that you’ll see down here at the bottom, you can, you can iterate on this. So we’ve got several versions. You can actually come in and, you know, you can edit it yourself. So if you say, like, well, I like that, but not quite that, you know, I can, you know, get my human touch on it as well. But yeah, so it’s a place to iterate on message. Christian Klepp  46:25 You can kind of look at it like, let’s say, if you’re writing a blog article, and this will give you the outline, right? Yeah. And then most of the AI that I’ve worked with to generate outlines, they’re not quite there. But again, if you’re starting from zero and you want to go from zero to 100 Well, that’ll, that’ll at least get you to 40 or 50, right? But I’m curious to know, because we’re looking at this now, and I think this, I mean, for me, this is, this is fascinating, but, like, maybe, maybe this will be part of your next iteration. But will this, will this generate messaging that’s already SEO optimized. Clay Ostrom  47:02 You know, it’s not specifically geared towards that, but I would say that it ends up being maybe more optimized than a lot of other messaging because it puts such an emphasis on clarity, it naturally includes words and phrases that I think are commonly used in the space more so than you know, maybe just kind of typical off the shelf Big B2B messaging, Christian Klepp  47:27 Gotcha. I had a question on the target persona that you’ve got here on screen, right? So how does the platform generate the information that will then populate that field because, and when I’m just trying to think about like, you know, because I’ve been, I’ve been in the space for as long as you have, and the way that I’ve generated target personas in the past was not by making a wild guess about, like, you know, looking at the brand’s website. It’s like having conducting deep customer research and listening to hours and hours of recordings, and from there, generating a persona. And this has done it in seconds. So… Clay Ostrom  48:09 Yeah, it’s so the way the system works in a couple different layers. So it does an initial analysis, where it does positioning, messaging analysis and category analysis, then you can generate the persona on top of that. So it takes all the learnings that it got from the category, from the product, from your messaging, and then develops a persona around that. And it’s, of course, able to also pull in, you know, the AI is able to reference things that it knows about the space in general. But I have found, and this is true. I was just having a conversation with someone who works on a very niche brand for a very specific audience, and I was showing him what it had output. And I said, Tell me, like, Don’t hold back. Like, is this accurate? He said, Yeah, this is, like, shockingly accurate for you know, how we view our target customer. So I think it’s pretty good. It’s not again, not going to be perfect. You’re going to need to do some work, and you still got to do the research, but, but, yeah. Christian Klepp  49:13 Okay, fantastic, fantastic. How do, I guess there’s the option, I see it there, like, download the PDF. So anything that’s analyzed on the platform can then be exported in a PDF format, right? Like, like, into a report. Clay Ostrom  49:28 Yeah, right now you can export the messaging analysis, or, sorry, the the messaging ideation that you’ve done, and then in the brand brief you can also, you can download a PDF of the brand brief as well. So, those are the two main areas. I’m still working on some additional exports of data so that people can pull it into a spreadsheet and do some other stuff with it. Christian Klepp  49:49 Fantastic, fantastic. That’s awesome, Clay. I’ve got a couple more questions before I let you go. But this has been, this has been amazing, right? Like and I really hope that whoever’s in the one listening and, most importantly, watching this, I hope that you really do consider like, you know, taking this for a test drive, right? How many I might have asked you this before, because, you know, I am somebody that does use, you know, that does a lot of this type of research. But how much time would you say companies would save by using Smoke Ladder? Clay Ostrom  50:24 It’s a good question. I feel like I’m starting to get some feedback around that with from our users, but I mean, for me personally, I would typically spend an hour or two just to get kind of up to speed initially, with a brand and kind of look at some of their competitors. If I’m doing a deep dive, though, if I’m actually doing some of the deeper research work, it could be several hours per client. So I don’t know. On a given week, it might depend on how many clients you’re talking to. Could be anywhere from a few hours to 10 hours or more, depending on how much work you’re doing. But, yeah, I think it’s a decent amount. Christian Klepp  51:07 Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, this definitely does look like a time saver. Here comes my favorite question, which you’re gonna look at me like, Okay, I gotta, I gotta. Clay Ostrom  51:17 Now bring it on. Let’s go. Christian Klepp  51:22 Folks that are not familiar with Smoke Ladder are gonna look at this, um, and before they actually, um, take it upon themselves to, like, watch, hopefully, watch this video on our channel. Um, they’re gonna look at that and ask themselves, Well, what is it that Smoke Ladder does that? You know that other AI couldn’t do, right, like, so I guess what I’m trying to say is, like, Okay, why would they use? How does the platform differ from something like ChatGPT, Perplexity or Claude, right? To run a brand analysis? Clay Ostrom  52:00 Yeah, no, I think it’s a great question. I think it’s sort of the it’s going to be the eternal AI question for every product that has an AI component. And I would say to me, it’s three things. So one is the data, which we talked about, and I didn’t show you this earlier, but there is a search capability in here to go through our full archive of all the brands we’ve analyzed, and again, we’ve analyzed over 6000 brands. So the data piece is really important here, because it means we’re not just giving you insights and analysis based on the brand that you’re looking at now, but we can compare and contrast against all the other brands that we’ve looked at in the space, and that’s something that you’re not going to get by just using some off the shelf standard LLM  (Large Language Model) and doing some, you know, some quick prompts with that. The next one, I think, to me that’s important is it’s the point of view of the product and the brand. Like I said, this is built off of 10 plus years of doing positioning and messaging work in the space. So you’re getting to tap into that expertise and that approach of how we do things and building frameworks that make this work easier and more productive that you wouldn’t get, or you wouldn’t know, just on your own. And then the last one, the last point, which is sort of the kind of like the generic software answer, is you get a visual interface for this stuff. It’s the difference between using QuickBooks versus a spreadsheet. You can do a lot of the same stuff that you do in QuickBooks and a spreadsheet, but wouldn’t you rather have a nice interface and some easy buttons to click that make your job way, way easier and do a lot of the work for you and also be able to present it in a way that’s digestible and something you could share with clients? So the visual component in the UI is sort of that last piece. Christian Klepp  54:01 Absolutely. I mean, it’s almost like UX and UI one on one. That’s, that’s pretty much like a big part of, I think what it is you’re trying to build here, right? Clay Ostrom  54:13 Yeah, exactly. It’s just it’s making all of those things that you might do in an LLM just way, way easier. You know, you basically come in, put in your URL and click a button, and you’re getting access to all the data and all the insights and all this stuff so. Christian Klepp  54:29 Absolutely, absolutely okay. And as we wrap this up, this has been a fantastic conversation, by the way, how can the audience start using Smoke Ladder, and how can they get in touch with you if they have questions, and hopefully good questions. Clay Ostrom  54:47 Yeah, so you can, if you go to https://smokeladder.com/ you can, you can try it out. Like I said, you can basically go to the homepage, put in a URL and get started. You don’t even have to create an account to do the initial analysis. But you can create FREE account. You can dig in and see, you know, play around with all the features, and if you use it more, you know, we give you a little bit of a trial period. And if you use it beyond that, then you can pay and continue to use it, but, but you can get a really good flavor of it for free. Christian Klepp  55:16 Fantastic, fantastic. Oh, last question, because, you know, it’s looking me right in the face now, industry categories. How many? How many categories can be analyzed on the platform? Clay Ostrom  55:26 Yeah, yeah. So right now, we have 23 categories in the system currently, which sounds like a lot, but when you start to dig into especially B2B, it’s we will be evolving that and continuing to add more, but currently, there’s 23 different categories of businesses in there. Christian Klepp  55:46 All right, fantastic, fantastic. Clay, man. This has been so awesome. Thank you so much for your time and for your patience and walking us through this, this incredible platform that you’ve built and continue to build. And you know, I’m excited to continue using this as it evolves. Clay Ostrom  56:06 Thank you. Yeah, no. Thanks so much. And you know, if anybody, you know, anybody who tries it out, tests it out, please feel free to reach out. We have, you know, contact info on there. You can also hit me up on LinkedIn. I spend a lot of time there, but I would love feedback, love getting notes, love hearing what’s working, what’s not, all those things. So yeah, anytime I’m always open. Christian Klepp  56:30 All right, fantastic. Once again, Clay, thanks for your time. Take care, stay safe and talk to you soon. Clay Ostrom  56:36 Thanks so much. Talk to you soon. Christian Klepp  56:37 All right. Bye for now.

How to Optimize Your PPC Campaigns for Maximum Impact Every Pay-Per-Click campaign has symptoms. While some are mild, others can be critical. With the B2B marketing environment becoming more competitive and as budgets continue to shrink, ensuring your PPC campaigns are well thought out and “healthy” is imperative. So how can B2B marketing teams ensure they run high-performing PPC campaigns? That's why we're talking to Serge Nguele (Founder, Your PPC Doctor), who shares proven strategies and expert insights on how to optimize your PPC campaigns for maximum impact. During our conversation, Serge emphasized the value of understanding PPC as a tool to test market assumptions and validate messaging. He also highlighted common pitfalls that B2B marketers should avoid such as launching campaigns without a clear strategy, relying on poor or incomplete tracking, and generic ad copy that doesn't resonate. He advised that teams must fix their tracking, define what business success looks like, segment audiences with intention, and relentlessly test to discover what drives conversions. Serge stressed the importance of having a comprehensive, full-funnel approach to maximize the potential of PPC campaigns through Google and Microsoft ads. He also shared his “no excuses, no complaints, no self-pity” philosophy to illustrate the mindset required to drive stronger results and leverage the true potential of PPC. https://youtu.be/oSmgdh2Jfgw Topics discussed in episode: [2:13] The importance of PPC in B2B marketing [4:49] Some common misconceptions and pitfalls in PPC [15:04] How B2B marketers can avoid major PPC pitfalls [23:11] Practical steps to optimize PPC campaigns for predictable results Fix your tracking Define success in business terms Segment your audience in a smart way Differentiate messaging based on audience's stage in the funnel Testing relentlessly [29:22] How AI is reshaping PPC and what B2B marketers must prepare for Companies and links mentioned: Serge Nguele on LinkedIn Your PPC Doctor Transcript Christian Klepp  00:01 Every pay per click campaign has symptoms. Some are mild, while others are critical. With the marketing landscape becoming more competitive and budgets shrinking, ensuring your PPC (Pay-Per-Click) campaigns are well thought out and healthy is imperative. So how can marketing teams ensure they optimize their PPC campaigns for maximum impact? Welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers in a Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp. Today, I’ll be talking to Serge Nguele, who will be answering this question. He’s the founder at your PPC doctor who specializes in implementing PPC solutions for companies. Tune in to find out more about what this B2B marketers mission is. Okay, and here we go. Mr. Serge Nguele, welcome to the show.  Serge Nguele  00:49 Thank you for having me, Christian. How are you today? Christian Klepp  00:52 I’m great, and I’m really looking forward to this conversation, because I’ll be honest with you, I was looking through the archive of all the past episodes, and I have to say nobody has been on the show that is going to talk about this topic, so this is the first time. Serge Nguele  01:05 Oh, yeah, good to hear. We’ll try to bring some value to all the millions of you know listener out there. Christian Klepp  01:13 Absolutely, absolutely. So let’s dive in, because I think this is going to be an interesting topic. And I don’t know about you, perhaps you run across this many times, but in my space and in my network, the moment people hear pay per click or PPC, they get a little bit like, I don’t know. Oh, I’m not sure. And this is part of the reason, a big part of the reason why I’ve asked somebody like yourself to come on the show. It’s to take the ickiness out of this topic and get them to understand why it’s important, right? So let’s dive into the first question. Okay, so Serge, you’re on a mission to listen. I love this one. Listen, diagnose and prescribe the right paperclip solutions for B2B companies. So for this conversation, let’s focus on the topic of how to optimize your PPC campaigns for maximum impact. So I’m going to kick off this conversation with the following question, what is it about PPC that you wish more people understood? Serge Nguele  02:16 Yeah, thanks. Yeah. Thanks, Christian for your question, and to quickly touch on what you’ve said about PPC. That’s the story of my life. You know, when people are asking, what do you do? And I will say, Pay Per Click, I will start explaining, you know, and they will just nod, and I will be like, not quite sure they got it, but you know, the quick way would be just to tell them, whenever you search for anything online, you go on Google or whichever search engine. And we’ll touch on it, there is not only Google, you know, when we when it comes to PPC, you type your keyword, and you will see a lot of links coming and the one with a little ad, which means advertising that’s pay per click. Ah, they would say, Yeah, that’s fine. Serge Nguele  03:03 But to come to your question when it’s come to PPC, really, what I wish most marketers are understanding is that PPC, which stands for pay per click, and it’s pay per click, because whenever you type a keyword and you click on the link coming there is someone paying the advertiser, not usually the user. That’s why it’s pay per click. And what is good to I wish many people you know understood about it is that PPC it’s about buying time to test your market assumptions. Because, yeah, all of us, all the businesses, it’s really happening, not when you have the click, but it’s after the click. What’s happening there. So when done right? PPC is the fastest, one of the fastest way I know of to validate the messaging, your offer, your positioning, and I wish more marketers understood that PPC is in a silo. It’s a feedback engine, really, and when you use it to inform your market, product fit your sales messaging, or even your customer experiences. It really goes beyond clicks, and that’s where you get the magic out of PPC. Christian Klepp  04:30 Yeah, that’s a really good way of putting it. Serge, and thanks for sharing that. We’re going to touch on this, I think even more later on. But like just you know, from a very top level perspective. Why do you think a lot of people feel, even marketers, feel that PPC is a waste of marketing investment? Serge Nguele  04:49 Yes, with this one, if I’m taking from advertiser, let’s say you Christian, you are, you know, a business person, the way. Well. Yeah, when it’s coming to PPC, it’s fair to talk more about Google, because, yeah, Google is having 90% of the market. So we will say Google, but Google is not the world. PPC has rules here a bit later. So let’s say what Google has done over the year is to really make it easy for pretty much anyone on the planet to be in a position to choose a few keyword enter the credit card, and in a matter of minutes, they would have another running showing up to people. So that’s the easy part, but that’s not doing PPC, and what is happening out of it, soon enough, they will realize, Okay, we are having a lot of clicks, but not what we are expecting, which means sales, or whatever is that is making their bottom line. And a lot of client I would be seeing advertiser. It will be after that phase where they found them themselves, you know, out of pocket of 100, if not 1000s, of click. And they will all, all of them. They will come like, PPC doesn’t work. And I would say, yeah, it’s normal for it not to work, if you because it’s a job, you know, I’m not here to defend, you know, my job, but, yeah, it’s taking time to be a PPC expert. So really, for me, starting from the beginning, where people are doing what they are not meant to do is not like me. You know, tomorrow I won’t be going out there and say I’m a podcast host. You know, that will be an insult on, you know, all the learning you went through, you know, to be where you are. So for me, that’s really the key problem. So basically, it’s, yeah, it’s a West because a lot of unqualified people, and I’m saying this, you know, respectfully, are just, you know, wasting budget, essentially. Christian Klepp  07:16 Yeah, so what I’m hearing you say is, like part of it is certainly a lack of expertise. The other one is also, perhaps even a lack of strategy, and we’re going to talk about that later on in the conversation, but that is a great segue to the next question about key pitfalls that you think B2B marketers should avoid when it comes to PPC. So what are those key pitfalls, and what should they be doing instead? Serge Nguele  07:38 Yes, and this will be complementing my answer, because, yeah, I focus it on advertiser directly. But let’s say when PPC experts are doing are running campaigns for their clients. So this is to this question to as mainly PPC has said, it’s one of the quickest way to really generate clicks out there. That’s fine, but that just the beginning, but even before getting there. So it’s the strategy beforehand, because, yeah, it’s quite easy to set the keyword, generate click and realize the website is not ready. The offer is not what it was supposed to be, and it’s bringing us, you know, to really plan before even starting creating your first campaign. That means the strategy. What is your product? Are you understanding your market? What’s your positioning your competition. What are you bringing to the market? So that’s the strategy. Once you clear with it, it will make it easy for you to say, Okay, I’m understanding the market. This is my offer. This is what I’m bringing, different, you know, in the market space. And now this is the strategy, the approach I’m going to use to reach out to those people. Where are those people? Even, you know, searching for the product or service I’m going to promote online. Because, yeah, when we say PPC, it’s a full funnel.  Serge Nguele  09:16 If we take Google, for example, people will be having multiple touch point to see your product. Yeah, I’ve been talking more about keywords, but there is a lot more than that. And if I ask you, how are you searching online? You are not only typing keyword, but you are self advertising because you’ve given some information about who you are, and search engine and marketing platform are having those information about you, your age, your job, how much you earn, all of those inside are what would be part of the strategy, how you approach market.  Serge Nguele  10:01 Now, once that is done properly, and let’s say the companies, company is already running it’s how are you measuring success? And there it will be all the vanity metrics. So okay, it’s good to have impression clicks, but what about the bottom line? Because, yeah, if you are investing, who says investment? Expect a return out of that investment? So if you measure only how many people are clicking on your website, that’s you are missing the point. So question would be, how many are converting whatever is that you know you define as a conversion.  Serge Nguele  10:44 Now, another part would be how you set your campaign. I said, how easy Google could, you know, make it to create a PPC campaign, they have also a lot of automatic function that have. This is not the point. I’m not here, you know, to do a very cheap Google bashing. But, I mean, yeah, this platform are having, well, I will say polite, just insane, you know, feature making it just kind of waste of budget, you know, where you’ll have the keyword targeting the, you know, network you shouldn’t be, you know, advertising on to sell it. So do setting and also aligning to the sales objective. So those are, you know, a few ways. So I said quite a lot. To bring it more into structure, I would say, first of all, it’s strategy before even, you know, thinking of creating the campaign. You have your strategy, and then once your company are there, I said, but yeah, I would keep on repeating it, the clicking, just the beginning of it. So what are you measuring? So having, you know, real matrix, not vanity metrics like click, CTR  (Click-Through Rate) and then setting your campaigns. A lot of advertisers are on set and forget, you know, not doing anything. And guess what? It wouldn’t work, you know, because you have to optimize continuously and then align with business goals. Christian Klepp  12:33 Absolutely, absolutely no. I’ve been writing furiously as you’re talking, but like what I’m hearing you say, and I think it’s absolutely right but people tend to forget that PPC, and in fact, a lot of these other initiatives, they’re all part of an ecosystem, right? And it’s all you all. You have to think about it like, Okay, so where is this going to go? Because the, as you rightfully said, the click is just the beginning. When they click, where are they going? Where are they going to land? Is it going to be a landing page? Is it going to be an ad? And after they’ve scanned the content on that said page or that ad, what do you want them to do? So what’s the call to action? Where are you going to funnel them from there after that? What’s the follow through? So it almost seems to me like this has to all be mapped out. It doesn’t just stop with PPC, right? Serge Nguele  13:21 Yes, and even there quickly, before you asked your other question, yeah, sorry to interrupt. I will say it’s all tied to the strategy, because, yeah, could be a lot of things. You know, you can use PPC because you want to test something on your website. You can use PPC because you want to complement what you are doing with your organic traffic strategy. Most recently, I had, I was referred a prospective client, and they came to me saying, we are doing well on our organic search. Now we want to bring PPC to complement all of that and expand. So, yeah, you know, all of those things are part of the strategy. So, and it will be different if you are coming because you want to test something on your landing page that’s been, for example, your main metrics. To go back to what I’ve said, clicks. Your clicks wouldn’t be a vanity matrix, because you really want people you know to come there and you know, validate whatever you want on the landing page. Whereas, if you are there to generate leads, probably you want, you know, content yourself only with clicks. You will want people you know to fill your lead form. You know. Christian Klepp  14:43 Absolutely, absolutely so sales you’ve tried. You’ve touched on this already, but like, let’s expand on it further. So what do you think are the main causes of underperforming paid search campaigns? So from your experience, what do you think the real underlying problems are, and I suppose one of them is a lack of strategy. Certainly.  Serge Nguele  15:04 Yeah, it’s starting from there. Christian, yeah, you said it a lack of strategy. But okay, let us assume you are there, you know, you are getting clicks. So there one of the main cause of on the performing campaign, I would say it’s that whenever I audit account, a lot of them are just flying kind of blind. That means the tracking is even, you know, wrong. This is something I should start with it, you know. But he has a good case to, you know, talk about it. It’s, yeah, when you have the campaign, so you need to make sure you track every single click. Otherwise, how would you even know what is performing? So this is the main cause of underperforming campaigns. For me, it’s weight tracking and measurement, and that’s mean, if you can’t trust your data, you can’t optimize and at this point, because, yeah, you have business people listening to this an important part, an important one, you know, a lot of people are not advertising. It’s also the invalid traffic. You have a lot of, you know, especially now with AI and all boats, you know, we have are there. And this there is a staggering, you know, number of invalid traffic so, and this is, you know, a proper study, so in certain vertical more than 20% of click received are all invalid. So that’s mean, if you factor that to properly understand that mean whatever you are receiving, 20% of those clicks are wrong. So that’s mean you’re working with wrong data. That’s mean everything that would follow after that are just, you know, assumption based on 20% of you know wrong information. So this is an important one.  Serge Nguele  17:09 And I would say, has advertiser, and this is something, for example, yeah, I don’t want to oversell, but what we do in which your PPC doctor. Those are things I’m putting in place to really be working with, in value, traffic, you know, company. There are a few out there, but yeah, I’m working with lunio, for example, which is our partner. So those I would recommend, not necessarily, you know, but you find whoever you want to work with, but this is really important to make sure you are receiving, you know, the right information, so weak tracking and measurement and then ignoring the funnel in the process. So you know when, again as I was saying, depending on what you want to achieve, you will have different goals, and you will be optimizing your campaign differently regarding what you want to achieve. So a lot of campaign are only targeting bottom up funnel intent, but you know, and they will be missing all the other funnels. So yeah, to develop quickly about the funnel. So yeah, roughly, we would have the awareness and then, so that’s mean people are just discovering they want something. So they want to know what their options are out there into that phase, and then they would have the consideration where, okay, then they are quite definite about what they want. Now they are starting making, you know, their decision. And then it will be the conversion phase, where they are in a position to decide and buy, essentially.  Serge Nguele  19:04 So when you set your campaign, you have to, you know, be considerate of all those phases, because they are someone who is in their awareness phase, they will just be there to consider their options. They won’t be buying. And you need to factor that so that your campaign, your strategy that’s tied back to strategy that’s mean, okay, you will plan your campaign to spend a certain amount, or invest a certain amount to reach people in their awareness phase, and then another amount to bring them to consider, and another one in consideration. And when you tie that to the wall ecosystem, we said, PPC is just a fraction of you know your the world, the world marketing ecosystem. So that’s mean, okay, awareness. How are you going to you? Know, once they click and you have that information, are you following up with an email, you know, to just keep them alive and making sure when, when they are in a position to convert if they see your ad, take that decision, you know.  Serge Nguele  20:14 And then the third one, it’s generic ad copies all we’ve said so people, when they are considering they won’t be in the same, you know, set of mind, like when they are just there to discover, or when they want to buy. So you need also, you know, with your messaging, to differentiate all those phases people in the awareness you want them to to know you are there. They might even be coming, you know, online already having their assumption some, some of their preferred planned. You know, so if you come into that moment, your message should be to tell them we are here. We could be an option for you when they are there to consider your message. Need to be different and so on, when they are ready to, you know, to convert. And even there could be, you know, remarketing as well, you know, because they, if they already know about you, you won’t come again with the same message. You need to try something different. It could be, if you have a discount, or whatever, you know, could bring value. So a lot to say, Yeah, but here to to summarize, I know, yeah, I said quite a lot. But to summarize, you know, the main thing would be, really the tracking and measurement you need to track. If you don’t track your flying blind, then consider the funnel. So at which stage people are which micro moment? Are they there because they want to know? Are they there because they want to buy? Are they, you know, all those the funnel, and the third one would be having a differentiated ad copy to match all of that. Christian Klepp  21:58 Fantastic, fantastic. You did say a lot, but I think it was very important, because I what you’re, what you were explaining was you were expanding on, not just again, it’s, I think for me, it’s also beyond the PPC, because it’s understanding the buyer’s journey. First of all, who the buyers are, and what stage of the journey that you’re at. I think you mentioned at least three times, from what I from what I can remember, are they… No, no. And I think it’s important, because are they in the Discover stage where they haven’t, you know, they’re just looking around for us to see what the options are, or are they at the stage where they’re already bought in and they’re and they’re ready to buy two completely different motivations, different messaging, different copy, is required, right? And if people are using this, I would just call it like the one size fits all approach, right? That’s a recipe for failure, right?  Serge Nguele  22:52 Exactly, exactly.  Christian Klepp  22:53 Okay, fantastic. Moving on to the next question. So break it down for us here. How can you know based on everything that you’ve said, How can marketers optimize their PPC campaign. So what are the steps? What are the key components that need to be in that process to make this successful? Serge Nguele  23:11 So at this point, yeah, we’ll assume they had their strategies, right? So yeah, the first one would be, fix your tracking to make sure you are tracking the right things, and that’s been making sure your GFO (General Marketing Automation), which used to be Google Analytics, is there to or if you’re using Adobe, but GFO is the most common one, making sure your CRM (Customer Relationship Management) integration is also right. I didn’t touch on it, but offline data are also important to really get the best out of your of your optimization, because, yeah, that’s mean, you are taking information from real your real customer, your real buyer, and when you feed the system with those information, offline information, it helping you get the best out of what you are currently doing.  Serge Nguele  24:09 Then the second step would be defining success in business terms. I mentioned earlier, vanity metrics. But yes, really, what is that? What does success means to you as a business person you know not only clicks you know, so that’s mean making sure you have your return on your ad spend right, and even tied it to the profit, because their return on ad spend would not even be considering, you know, all the other aspects. So really, are you profitable or no? And once you consider all of that, it will help you properly optimize the campaign and make them work.  Serge Nguele  24:56 Then the third step would be segment your audience smartly. This is touching on what we’ve said that’s been differentiator, who are decision maker, who are influencer, who are researcher, that they won’t be having the same impact, and if we identify them properly, that will also help you allocate the budget accordingly and have more efficiency on that part. I will take an example, one of our clients. When analyzing their channels, we found that on meta, they were having the highest cost per acquisition. However, when looking at the lifetime value of those clients, those were the most relevant. So that’s mean it wasn’t a problem to allocate more budget there, because we knew that’s where they are making more money if you don’t have that you know segmentation, you might just be saying, Okay, we have a cost per acquisition, which is one of the metrics. You could say cost per acquisition is too high there, but without having the offline information about the lifetime value, you will be missing the point. You could cut out, you know, that channel where, really, you know, it’s where you are getting the most value, and then it will be the differentiation on the messaging.  Serge Nguele  24:56 So build a creative, creative and message that speaks directly to the pinpoint so. And this is, again, you know, understanding your audience, really, if you know, if you understand them, that means you will talk their language. And then the fifth one I would add, there would be test, test and test relentlessly. Again. You counting probably this is the 10th time I would say the click. Click is just the beginning. So that’s been once you have the click, what can I do from that point? You know, understanding your client, testing a few different, you know, different aspect of your messaging, on your landing pages. That how you know, really, and that’s why, coming back to where we started, yeah, a lot of advertiser, when they will be coming, they would not have the time to do all of this, because it’s a full time job, you know, to be testing different aspects, you know, for a few weeks to have to validate one hypothesis. If you are a business person, your job would not certainly be, you know, doing that, and that’s why it’s a recipe for failure. When you know business people start trying to do what is not their job. And even here, you could see, even has a marketer, there are a lot of steps, you know, to be taken. And all of us, you know, digital marketer, we are not necessarily taking those. Christian Klepp  24:56 Fantastic, fantastic. Okay, so I’ve written this down. Let me just quickly recap for the audience, yeah. So the first one you said is fix your tracking, so GFO for Google Analytics, with the CRM integration that should also be right, defining success in business terms. I think that’s an extremely important one. Like, why are we doing this right? Like, what’s the objective here? Right?  Serge Nguele  24:56 Yeah. Christian Klepp  24:56 Segmenting your audience smartly, back to what you were saying earlier. Like, at what stage are they at? Right? How many, how many different groups, especially in B2B, right? How many different groups are we targeting? Differentiation in terms of messaging. I think that’s another big miss with a lot of these campaigns, right? That the messaging is just too generic, or perhaps they’re just using whatever ChatGPT gave them. And Testing, testing, which leads me to another question, Serge, because I’m pretty sure it’s impacted your area of expertise as well. And we are in 2025, at the time of this recording. But AI, how has AI impacted PPC, and where do you see this going? Like, how can AI help or hurt? PPC. Serge Nguele  25:42 Yeah, that’s a good one, you know. And I didn’t have it this issue added. I was like, okay, Christian is, you know, just uncommon. Not asking anything about AI. I was surprised. No this. So there we go, yeah, AI is, you know, it’s a part of our lives, all of us, and now it’s starting from the beginning. So, why so? So the question I’m asking myself is, you know, why do I, why do I even need AI, you know, for because, yeah, guess what, if it’s just, you know, to be following the  trend, it will be just noise, more than anything. However, coming to PPC, AI has been in PPC for a long while, even, you know, long before ChatGPT. We have more and more, you know, smart bidding, all those AI influence, but I remember when I started PPC 16 years back, not making me look younger. But yeah, don’t worry. I’m 25. Christian Klepp  26:06 For those that are listening, you know, they’re only listening to the audio version. I mean, Serge is a young looking guy. Serge Nguele  26:06 There you go. Yeah, yeah. I would say PPC used to be manual, you know, where you could freely influence but AI now and automation are part of the question to answer in a very simple, you know, term to your question about AI, it’s, yeah, AI is there. It’s a tool like any other tools, and it’s what you do with that tool that really matters. And also it what I’m what I’m trying to avoid it, you know, being, yeah, being lazy, as you mentioned, you know, when talking about the ad copy differentiation and people just getting what they are, you know, receiving from ChatGPT, yeah, the question is, using it as a tool, which means it could be doing a lot of stuff, you know, calculation, pulling together information, all those things that are boring, you know, let’s use the word, you know, I can say otherwise. So AI would be doing that and freeing us, you know, space to be strategizing, doing all you know, the steps we mentioned, understanding our market, the competition, segmenting, differentiating, you know, our messages, putting together the strategy. Because, yeah, AI won’t be able to do that, at least not properly.  Serge Nguele  26:06 So yeah, that’s for me. You know, how, how I’m, yeah, you know, positioning, you know, ourselves with AI, but yeah, we are using it definitely, you know, to make our life easier, not the other one, not to replace us. And actually, this, this one, yeah, I was at the conference last week in Manchester, and that was, you know, the very topic, and also a personal experience. It was my birthday last week, and so when there we had Ed Sheeran, you know, the singer, you probably know, we had his impersonator, you know, who came at the event. Now, at a personal level, I’m just one of those guys who can walk past any celebrity, you know, art. So I went for my selfie, and I was pretty much convinced, you know, that it was the real one, because I went, had a chat, told him it was my birthday. Oh, so he sung me, you know, a happy birthday, which I was pleased to publish. Like, okay, I had the real Ed Sheeran, you know, singing me happy birthday. But it turned out, you know, it was a fake one. So coming back to AI, one of the I had an academic who was discussing on that topic, and he said one of the main competency we need in the future with AI would be for expert to really be expert to drive AI and, you know, tell it when it’s wrong or right. And that was a, you know, perfect example, you know, with that HR experience. Christian Klepp  26:06 Absolutely, absolutely and belated Happy Birthday, by the way. And so I did see the post, and I looked closely at the picture, and I’m like, Yeah, that’s not the real guy. Serge Nguele  26:06 You were, right? And the thing is, I didn’t have a lot of people, you know, coming to say it looks like for a lot of people, you know, I wasn’t scummed, you know, on my own. Christian Klepp  26:06 Fantastic, fantastic. Okay, so we get to the next question, which I call the soapbox question, what is the status quo in your area of expertise? So, PPC, that you passionately disagree with and why? Serge Nguele  26:06 Okay, yeah, one of those we already touched on it. For me, it’s PPC, it’s set it and forget it. And a lot of campaigns auditing just that way, so you could see people, they just, you know, created the campaign. And they are expecting the system, you know, to turn it magically, you know, positively. So, yeah, that’s, I disagree. So you know, when I mentioned that the step to go, the very last one was, you know, to test, test and test. So, yeah, this is where the real magic is happening. You know, within PPC, when we testing. So if we set and forget, we won’t be able to really see what works. And at this point, I would also, you know, blink, the diversification, you know, Google is 90% of the PPC ecosystem. That’s fine. However, it’s not the world, the entire ecosystem. And on this one, we have just the second search engine, you know, in the world, Microsoft Art, which is getting ignored, sorry. And so with that, I would just use metaphor to say, if PPC, it’s a brain, and our brain is having two hemisphere, Google will be the left one, and then Microsoft will be the, you know, the right one. And I’m seeing a lot of PPC or advertiser just running on one hemisphere. So if you have one hemisphere, you will never know, you might even be successful on Google, but it will never be complete. You know, once you have a functioning PPC brand where you have Google’s running, and then Microsoft, who is coming, and the way is working, because it’s two different search engine would be coming incrementally to what you are achieving on Google. So that’s really where, you know you have the magic of, you know, the full potential of your PPC. Christian Klepp  26:06 Absolutely, absolutely. And you know it was, it goes back to what you were saying earlier on the conversation. It’s a set it and forget it. It’s also a very dangerous mindset, and it could lead to, it could lead also to a tremendous waste of money if you don’t know what you’re doing. Serge Nguele  26:06 Yeah, exactly. Which is some time for when business owner are managing the Google ad that just, that’s just naturally happens, because, yeah, it’s not their job, you know, they are focused on, you know, running their business, doing what they are good at. So they will be like, Okay, we have some PPC running, and that just, you know, was for everyone. Christian Klepp  26:06 Absolutely, absolutely, okay. Here comes the bonus question, which I kind of like, I hinted at it already previously. But you know, the rumor, the rumor on LinkedIn, is that you’re a runner, and I’ve seen some, I’ve seen some videos of you running, and you’ve clearly, like, participated in some marathons and the like. So my question to you, Serge, is like, what is it? What is it about running that you’ve learned that you’ve applied in your professional life? Serge Nguele  26:06 Oh, yeah, that’s a profound one. Okay, so yeah? Well, I would say yeah, the rumor on LinkedIn is right, yeah, running is an important part of my life, and even exercising, it’s an important part of my life. I’m coming from a football background, and most gradually, I went into running, and past six years, I’ve been more of a runner participating to that, I participated to three marathons, so Paris, Eden trail and London this year, and most recently completed a half marathon the Royal Park one in London. So with with running, long distance running, remind me just the way life is. So life is a marathon. So it’s not a, you know, it’s not a sprint, and which is running it. You know, if, when you get that mindset, a marathon, a marathon doesn’t mean you are going the distance that’s in you, that means you need to really well, I will bring it back a bit to the PPC. So we need to strategize if you are to cover 42 kilometers while it is becoming serious. So you need to make sure you really manage, you know, time your effort, you have a proper strategy, because you can just, you know, wake up and say, Okay, I will cover 42k you will be, you know, really going into trouble. So strategizing and then planning and that will be influencing, you know, even your worth living, because, yeah, how you rest, how you recover, how you eat, and so, yeah.  Serge Nguele  39:59 And then it’s also pushing you to the limit. That’s mean your mindset, which is actually the most important you know when doing this, because to run a marathon, it will be, yeah, a bit about you need to turn that for sure, but it will be about going beyond the physical battle, and at that point it will be more what you have in your mindset. Or no, do you believe you can do it? Or no, you know, are you fighting to keep on going when your body is saying, Okay, I can’t take it anymore. So and all of those things, when you bring them back to to normal life is just, you know, on a daily basis, your business person, you know, we have up and down. You will have no client, you know, sometime. So how are you behaving? You know, with when all those things are happening. And in between the running, I also developed my proper tools, one of them being what I call my three nose philosophies, which I’m happy to share with our listeners here, could be helping. It’s working for me. And yeah, I’m sure if you guys are testing it, it will be working. So the first, no, it’s no excuses. That’s been whatever you set yourself to do. You just go for it. You don’t find excuses. So it’s a respect you give to yourself. The second, no, it’s no complaint. Life is, you know, life is throwing us a lot of stuff. Not only is, you know, chocolate, if I can say but yeah, you have to face it. When is there? If you complain, it won’t change anything. So that’s mean not complaining set you to finding the solution. And the third one is no self pity. You can still say, Okay, I was born in wherever it is, this or that, that won’t change anything. The question it’s, are you willing to consider that however, whatever your condition is not what defines you, it’s what you do you know next that will be the important step. So yeah, my train of philosophy, Sophie would be the bonus for our listener, Christian Klepp  42:31 No excuses, no complaints and no self pity. So not only is sales a PPC expert, but he’s also a philosopher, no, but it’s awesome. Awesome. I love it. But, Serge, this has been such a great conversation. Thank you so much for coming on and for sharing your expertise and your experience and your running advice with the listeners, and quick introduction to yourself and how people out there can get in touch with you. And I did notice, you know, there were a couple of hints in the conversation. There were a lot of, like, medical terms floating around. What’s the story there? Serge Nguele  43:06 The story so, yeah. Quick Intro about me, yeah, I’m search your PPC doctor. I’m called the PPC doctor in the industry, I do quite a lot of public speaking in the digital marketing space. I’m George award at the search award in the UK, globally and at international level. I have 16 years experience in PPC, and I run my agency called your PPC doctor, if people want to be in touch with me, they can type my name online. I’m quite active on LinkedIn, so Serge Nguele, you will find me, yeah, wearing, you know, something with this PPC doctor. This is the branding. And to your question, why your PPC doctor? So there is a real story there. I’m a former Med student. So I studied medicine to become a proper doctor, but for some reason, I will spell spare the details. I pivoted into marketing and specialize into digital and PPC. So when I was creating my agency, the name was natural, your PPC doctor, which is also a real way of doing stuff. I don’t call the client. I still call, you know, my patients, and I’m having the doctor mindset within your PPC, where we really listen and then we listen, then we diagnose, prescribe, and from the prescription, we follow up with care. So yeah, that’s the doctor mindset at your PPC Doctor. Serge Nguele  43:52 Fantastic, fantastic. The only thing you don’t do is tell people to breathe in, breathe out and cough for me, please. Serge Nguele  43:58 Not yet.  Christian Klepp  43:58 Not yet, fantastic, fantastic. So once again, thank you so much for your time. Take care, stay safe and talk to you soon.  Serge Nguele  45:09 Okay, yes. Thanks Christian, thanks for having me.  Christian Klepp  45:12 Thanks. Okay. Bye, for now.  Serge Nguele  45:13 Yeah. Bye.

How a Growth Mindset Drives B2B Marketing Success  In an increasingly competitive business environment inundated with digital noise, relying on “play it safe” tactics will only result in your brand drowning in a sea of sameness. The path to true differentiation, innovation, and standing out is not an easy one as it requires a significant mindset shift. For B2B marketing initiatives to succeed, you must create room for experimentation and data-driven discovery. How can B2B marketers approach this effectively and secure internal buy-in for it? That's why we're talking toVincent Weberink (Founder, Pzaz.io),who shares expert insights and proven strategies on how a growth mindset drives B2B marketing success. In this episode, Vincent talked about why design experiments are crucial in B2B marketing and highlighted the need for structured, data-driven growth experimentation. He shared his proven methodology consisting of ideation, ranking, and rapid prototyping designed to quickly and effectively validate concepts. Vincent also shared some common B2B marketing pitfalls that teams should avoid and emphasized the value of iterative testing and learning. He broke down how teams can build an entrepreneurial mindset and get internal buy-in for experimentation-driven B2B marketing. https://youtu.be/SlQa58iKf3k Topics discussed in episode: [2:09] The importance of running structured experiments in B2B marketing [5:21] Common challenges marketing teams face when designing and executing experiments [13:53] Key pitfalls marketing teams should avoid and some practical solutions [20:36] How to align internal teams and consistently generate strong experimental ideas [31:31] Actionable steps B2B marketers can take to run effective experiments: Understand and acknowledge that what you know is probably wrong Use ideation and designing experiments Trust your team Be creative in applying growth hacks Get external help if stuck Companies and links mentioned: Vincent Weberink on LinkedIn Pzaz.io Cisco Airbnb ChatGPT 13 Failures Later What The Hack?! Transcript Christian Klepp  00:00 In a B2B landscape that has become increasingly competitive and inundated with digital noise, using play it safe tactics will result in your brand drowning in a sea of sameness. That said, the path to differentiation, innovation and standing out is not an easy one, as it requires a change in mindset. You need to have room for experiments to truly create something that is relevant to customers. So how can B2B marketers do this, and how can they get internal buy in for it? Welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers in a Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp. Today, I’ll be talking to Vincent Weberink, who will be answering this question. He’s the founder of pzaz.io who specializes in developing business growth through creative, structured data driven growth experimentation. Tune in to find out more about what this B2B marketers mission is. Christian Klepp  00:51 Vincent Weberink, welcome to the show.  Vincent Weberink  00:54 Hello Christian. Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here.  Christian Klepp  00:59 Absolutely I’ve been really looking forward to this conversation. I think we’re going to have a great time. We’re going to have a great discussion also about topics, and a main topic in particular that I think is going to be so relevant to B2B marketers and their teams in general. So you know, without further ado, let’s not keep the audience in suspense for too long. Let’s just jump straight into it. All right. So Vincent, you’re on a mission to drive business growth through creative, structured and data driven growth experimentation. So for this conversation, let’s focus on the following topic, which is how B2B marketers can create a mindset and design experiments to understand what customers want. That kind of sounds like it’s very, I’m going to say pedestrian, but it’s incredible, and I’m sure you’ll have plenty of case studies to show that there’s a lot of people out there that don’t follow this process, and then they get into trouble. So I’m going to kick off this conversation with two questions, and I’m happy to repeat them all right? So the first question is, why do you think that design experiments are important for marketing teams? And based on that, where do you see a lot of marketing teams struggle? Vincent Weberink  02:09 I think they’re very important because as human beings, we’re emotional when we make decisions. Problems is that, therefore when we try to drive growth. We have this idea about something, and then we tend to completely jump into it, build everything. Spend a lot of time and money and resources on building that thing that we believe is going to be very, very successful, and that takes a lot of time. And the reality is that most of the time you’re actually wrong, even though you think that you know your customer, even though you think that you know this is the best trick or marketing tactic that you’re developing. And what this experimentation model does, it sort of forces you to go through a very structured, almost scientific process, because there are some steps in there that help you to remove that emotion from your decision making.  Vincent Weberink  03:12 And an example of how decision making often is influenced is when you’re in a small team or a large team, you’re sitting around the table and you’re trying to brainstorm, say, oh, you know, we have this, this challenge. We’re launching a new product, or we’re changing something, and we need to communicate it, driving sales up. And then the people who are best sort of equipped with sales capabilities are the ones that you know will dominate the conversation, and what we tend to do is then listen to them, whereas there are other people around the table that you know, they might be more introverted, might say less, that also have really, really great ideas. So what happens is that you collect all these thoughts and ideas, and then the person that’s very good at selling is selling their idea to you, and you end up taking that one. But it has nothing to do with reality, whereas in the methodology that I’m sort of promoting, what you actually do is you try to capture as many ideas as possible, as quickly as possible, and then, in almost a democracy, you rank and rate them according to several criteria, and that will help you to make some of those ideas float. And the ones that pop up are the ones you should actually focus on, because now, within that democratic decision making process, you’ve tried to optimize the chances that one of those ideas will actually lead to much quicker success than any of the others. And you can also use it in the reverse, the ideas that completely sink because no one voted for them, maybe only just the person that was selling. You know that they go away. You just throw them away and forget. About them, because clearly they didn’t get enough support. And the other question you were asking, sorry focused on the first question.  Christian Klepp  05:08 No problem, absolutely, absolutely no. Well, that was a great way to, like, set up the conversation. And I guess it segues to the question, where do you see, based on what you said, where do you see a lot of marketing teams struggling? Vincent Weberink  05:21 Well, I see them often struggling is that they tend to spend money and time on just the ordinary things that everyone sort of accustomed to, because depending on the type of company you work in, that’s the safe choice, and that ultimately doesn’t really help you grow. It’s typically the stuff that you would never expect to work. And I’ll give you a great example of this in a moment that might give you this amazing growth overnight or amazing success. It doesn’t necessarily have to be growth. It can be specific campaign where you just need people to sign up, because you’re trying to obtain information from them and to get those people to sign up. It could be a problem. You’re designing your funnel, and then something isn’t really working.  Vincent Weberink  06:15 So in my experience, what happens is that people will say, Okay, let’s build a landing page. Let’s build a website, and let’s make it beautiful. Let’s make it perfect. But while you’re in this early stage, you have no clue if it’s going to work or not. You’re now wasting all of those resources where it’s so much better to very, very quickly, design experiments, run them as quickly as possible, see where something is happening, and then sort of iterate upon that specific experiment that you were running. And then slowly, over time, you get to a point where that experiment can be fleshed out, can be refined. You might do some A/B testing, and especially in the world we’re moving into with the rise of AI speed is everything past early days of when I was starting to do, you know, growth marketing or growth hacking, depending on what you like to call it. Let’s say 15 years ago, you could simply run an experiment, and that experiment could would last for certain periods of time. You could get away with some of the experiments, even running them for months. But with the rise of AI, what we’re seeing is that experiments only work for very, very short periods of time. And what I see with a lot of the marketing teams is that, you know, they’re not accustomed to driving fast and quickly running and failing fast, so that you can very quickly learn to see what ultimately what ultimately works.  Vincent Weberink  07:55 So a great example of something that I experienced it when I was running one of my startups, which was a streaming service, and I believed I got everything right. I was just convinced that there was nothing wrong with the product, but I wasn’t getting any traction, nothing, literally, no one was signing up, and I just couldn’t understand. So what I started to do is just run one experiment after another. First obviously, I went out and spoke to people, because that’s the first thing you should do most of the time, especially when you’re in startup mode, either a startup or you work for corporate, maybe running a division or launching a new product, you have no data. But if you read all of the books out there, they all tell you, Oh, let’s look at the data. Well, guess what? You don’t have any data. So what you need to do is you need to go and speak to people and find the soft data to really understand, you know, what’s going on. How do I create a product that people will be willing to buy, and I did that, and then it sort of confirmed that there was nothing wrong with the product. And then months into that process, I still wasn’t getting any traction, and the startup was sort of moving to a point where it started to fail, because, you know, you’re running out of money, you’re running out of time. So I kept running experiments, believing that the methodology that I use simply works. You just need to keep running, running, running. And then one day, I essentially was close to giving up, and I decided to take on another project because I had run out of money. But on the side, I kept running experiments, and what I did is I put a play button on the homepage, allowing people to watch television for five minutes without signing up. And that simple trick got me 11,000 euros overnight. It took me 11 months. To uncover that, I had now proven that indeed, the product wasn’t wrong. The product was always right, but the way we were marketing was wrong, and it is always one of the two. It’s either there’s no product market fit or you’re selling it in the wrong way. Your marketing is wrong. And in a way that was very frustrating, because this very simple thing, almost as simple as a paperclip now gave me all the growth in one way. It was too late for me, because I had to go into that other project. The revenue wasn’t enough to sustain the business, but it did allow me to sort of keep the business afloat. And I was working this other project, and then I returned, after like a half a year or so, back full time onto the startup once I was generating enough recurring, recurring revenue there, and yeah, that’s sort of, you know, what I strongly believe in. You just need to keep running those experiments.  Vincent Weberink  10:53 Of course. The third option is that your timing is completely off, which is another thing that I’ve experienced several times. I’ve run many startups, most of them failed over time. I’m proud to say that I never had to raise money for any of those startups. I was sort of in the last 30 years of my career. Thank you. I always managed to, you know, make enough money to sort of sustain, but many of them never became the big winner. They were just doing enough, and then at some point, there was an end of life, because either the market was fooled or or just turned out that there was no point in continuing to run that company. An example is VPN product that I did in 2003 that’s when the first idea started. VPN was a business to business product, and we decided to consumerize VPN because our only competitor at the time was called hide my ass, and the technology was very, very complicated. And after sort of what happens after 911 where a lot of governments started to invade everyone’s privacy, we decided that, you know, it is also important for individuals to retain a level of privacy, you know, within the boundaries of the law, obviously. So we spent a lot of time in developing that technology, creating a product that was very, very easy to use and that was secure and safe. And we were very, very successful in the first year and a half. We even managed to get in Google on the second place, right after Cisco, which is the inventor of VPN, but by the time we had about 40,000 customers, that was it. That was just, we just couldn’t grow anymore. And I then decided to abandon that project. Over time, someone else continued it for several more years, and of course, now VPN mass market product, but over 20 years later, and it’s the most common product out there, and we were just too early. So even though it was an exciting, exciting adventure, it made us money. It was a profitable business. Ultimately, at the time, there was no point in sort of continuing, trying to sort of push it, push it further. Christian Klepp  13:18 Yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely great points. And you know, thank you for sharing those, those experiences and the you know, those past successes and challenges, failures and so forth. I think it’s, I think it’s an important part of the overall process, right? I’m going to move us on. And you’ve mentioned some of these already, but like, what are some of these on the topic of design experimentation and growth growth marketing. What are some of these key pitfalls that marketing teams need to avoid, and what should they be doing instead? Vincent Weberink  13:53 The key pitfalls they need to avoid is to believe that they’re always right. I mean, that is the first thing is, in essence, that you should learn that most of the time you will be wrong, and that success lies in the ability to admit that and to move forward very, very quickly by running a lot of those experiments, and by designing those experiments very quickly and having the ability to turn them into minimum viable products. And the pitfalls that most people fall into is that they think you’ll just read a book, and then you can just do it. It’s simple, right? Oh, it’s just like marketing. It’s the same way how I learn how to do advertising, I can simply learn how to do, you know, growth marketing. But the reality is, it’s then it is a thing or a trick so that understanding and the realization that you just need to start thinking differently, start thinking out of the box, be creative, because a lot of those hacks come from places that you simply will not expect.  Vincent Weberink  15:15 I guess Airbnb is a typical example. You know, as far as I remember the story correctly. Two guys set up Airbnb. It was literally an air bed in someone’s house. They were running the business. They had about 10,000 you know, customers, and they could have said, Oh, you know, we’re doing great. Our marketing is doing well. We’re making money. But ultimately, they were not satisfied, so they decided to continue, and then what happens is, this is before the big thing that most people have heard of, which is correct, Greg’s list. That’s when they really exploded. But before that, something else happened, and that was when one of the founders said, Well, how do we expand our capacity, and how do we get more people interested in our products? And it was around the organization of trade shows when there was always a shortage of capacity in hotels, and they decided to try that out. And if I remember correctly, they grew sort of from 10,000 people to 200,000 people in just a couple of months. And that was actually their real growth hack, the real spurt, whereas reckless took them to millions. And that’s the thing that everyone knows. But it was that mindset, that understanding of not being satisfied with what you’re doing, and the ability to pivot, because it was a complete pivot. It was no longer just an air bet. Now you were renting out a bed in someone’s house, and that was sort of the foundation what then became Airbnb. And I think most marketing teams have never been exposed to that way of thinking. You know, they’ve been taught the simple stuff on, how do you do advertising, how do you look at data, you know, how do I build a website? How do I organize a trade show, etc. But it’s these things where you take an idea, where you’re almost stepping into the entrepreneur’s shoes by looking at, how can I make the business grow through extraordinary ways of marketing? Christian Klepp  17:30 Absolutely, absolutely. You know what? That’s a phrase that I also heard at a business meeting on Friday where I was talking to the branch manager of a bank. And one of the things that she said, why, how she helped the branch to grow, is because she came out of a business. She was a family business, and she was running her own business, so she came with an entrepreneur’s mindset. And I do think that there is that is really, like, significant, especially if you’re talking about and I don’t want to, like, use these, like, overused buzzwords, let’s say, but like, you know, if you’re entering this world of, like, the scrappy entrepreneurs or even the scrappy marketing teams, right, you can’t necessarily go in there with the corporate mindset. No offense to anybody that’s in corporate but if you’re stretched for, as you can rightfully attest to Vincent, if you’re stretched for time, bandwidth, resources and budget, you’ve got to, you’ve got to think more like a guerrilla fighter versus a conventional army, right? Vincent Weberink  18:38 You need to test as early as possible whether or not the ideas or your hypothesis, hypothesis that you have are actually true, and especially when you’re an entrepreneur or in a product team. And I have an example for there was a famous UK bank that had an idea where they wanted to test if friends and family would be willing to become guarantors for young people that would want to buy a house in London. And you know, banks are very, very big, slow organizations, and typically, if not alone, figuring out how this legally works will cost them millions right to develop the whole full product. So how do you do something? How do you create this experiment where you can prove whether or not there’s any viability in even thinking of offering such a product? And what they came up with is essentially to build a landing page where they would simply ask people to sign up for the service. They ran a 500 pound budget against it, so the total cost of the whole experiment was maybe 1500 pounds, and now they’ve managed to validate it, which saved them literally hundreds of 1000s of pounds and the risk that that product might have failed. And I think that is exactly the entrepreneurial mindset that a market. Marketer needs to develop and understand, Okay, I’m not just responsible for selling this product, but I’m also responsible for understanding, you know, who do I sell it to? How do I sell it? What should the product look like? How can the product evolve so that there’s a good product market fit? Christian Klepp  20:17 Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. You brought some of these up already, but let’s dig into it deeper and unpack it. I should say, like, so based on your experience, like, how do you how can B2B marketers get traction as early as possible? So how can they build experiments? What are those key steps that they need to take? Vincent Weberink  20:36 The first thing this is, so I sort of use a methodology and which is very, very structured. And I use that because if I don’t, I get lost in ideas. Because it is very easy to come up with 100 ideas. A lot of people you know, can do that. So what we do is I sit down, either with a team, or I might take a certain periods of time, where all I do is just collect as possible. Then for every idea, I write down, what is the idea? What do I believe this idea will give me? So what is the outcome? How do I prove, potentially, as a hypothesis, that what I believe is true? And then I sort of make those notes, then I store them in cards. And you can do that in any kind of project management tool, whether it’s notion or cell or bunch. Just create those cards.  Vincent Weberink  21:31 Then what I do is I rank and rank them so, and I ask the team to do that, or the people I work with, for example, if I was doing consultancy for clients, we would have a specific, specific group of the clients do doing the same thing, and then all we would do is see, Okay, which of those ideas are floating. And we would take the top 10, again, it was very easy to then generate, like, 100 different ideas, and you take the top 10, and then for each of those, you’re now going to discuss them and essentially say, Okay, if I need to turn this idea into minimal but viable products, allowing me to prove that I am right or wrong, what is the least amount of work you can then do? And you know, so in my book, I publish a whole list of MVPs (Minimum Viable Product), but actually, with ChatGPT, you could probably just type, give me a list of all the different type of MVPs and explain how they work. So for example, you have a Wizard of Oz. A Wizard of Oz is, is an MVP, where everything happens behind the scene. The product really doesn’t exist, but the customer thinks it exists. And you do everything manually. That’s just an example.  Vincent Weberink  22:51 So what you then do is you then going to think about, okay, who needs to do what? And then you run a short sprint. You design the sprint. Say, Okay, next Monday, with the three of us, we’re just going to spend one day on building that thing. And I, most of the time use distribution hacking, or in other words, advertising, to drive some traffic to whatever that experiment is to then prove of my whether or not my hypothesis is correct. And from there onwards, you then, of course, have some analytic tool, or, depending on how you how, you then prove it, and then you start to iterate and but I promise you, most of those experiments will fail, which is great, but if you run 10 very quickly, maybe in the course of two weeks, if you have two or three where you see the needle moving a little bit, now you have something to take the next step. And a classical mistake that I’ve seen is that people always tend to make it too complicated. So what they do is, rather than designing an experiment that gets you one answer, they try to get as many answers as possible. And that doesn’t work, because you know, if you have any exposure to data, if you have multiple data points, then it’s now up to your interpretation, and then you’re selling it to yourself, because you want the hypothesis to be true. So it’s very difficult to then again, step back and say, Ah, you know, can I really be honest with myself? So test one thing at a time. Once you’ve proven that one of those things work, you just design the next one and the next one and next one, and then within this very short periods of time, you’ll get to a point where, where it starts to work or fail. You could prove that the product simply is not viable. Which, which I’ve had many times, and then even pivoted afterwards, given up on many products, because simply, even though I believed, you know, was going to be amazing, yeah, it turns out to be wrong. So, yeah. Christian Klepp  25:00 Absolutely, absolutely. Like, it’s really a fine, a fine balance between speed, but also like, like, the quick experimentation, as you say, and you know, as you were, as you were discussing your process, it actually just made me think of another question, which I’m sure you faced countless times, and you brought it up in the beginning too. How do you get this internal alignment? You talked about, like a team getting together in the room, and I’ve been in one of those teams right, where there were a couple, like, we used to call them the stars of the show, because, you know, when they get up on stage, they want the spotlight to be only on them. Forget about what everybody else says. My idea, my baby is the most beautiful baby in the world. And how dare you insult my baby, right?  Vincent Weberink  25:48 Exactly.  Christian Klepp  25:49 But, but the reality, as you rightfully pointed out, which I’ve also seen firsthand, the reality, is that the one that shouts the loudest doesn’t necessarily have the best idea, right? It’s sometimes these people. It’s sometimes these people that don’t say anything, that don’t contribute to the conversation, they actually have the solution that perhaps the market is looking for. But unfortunately, their voice is drowned out by these so called, I’m just gonna call them the Divas in the room, right? So back to the question, how do you get that alignment? How do you get those ideas out of everybody in a way that it’s not just fair, but it’s also like more, more in line with what the market is looking for. Let’s put it that way. Vincent Weberink  26:43 The people around the table that typically don’t speak up, you know, some of them are the deep thinkers. They really think about something, and they have really great ideas, but they’ll then struggle to properly defend their idea and to explain it, whereas the other person on the table, who’s good at selling themselves, you know might they’ll do everything to defend their idea, and therefore they will attack the other ideas. And what you sort of see is by implementing this rank and rate model by definition, you’re externalizing the decision making, so you’re agreeing with everyone on the around the table, that everyone writes down their idea on the paper, on a piece of paper, and you define what that structure should then look like, which means is no one has to defend it. They just write it on paper. You then gather those pieces of paper and you add them to the tool. Then you ask everyone to rank and raise which, by the way, could be done anonymous, which I’ve done many times. And that way you just look at the one that floats, and you just, if the team look, we don’t know who’s right, we can’t afford for this venture to fail, and therefore, we’re just going to focus on the ideas that have the greatest potential of propensity. And that’s how I do it, and it’s always worked well for me. There’s, of course, when I would introduce this to new startup teams, very often it’s the entrepreneur that is the biggest problem. You know that they’re the hardest to convince, because they typically have the strongest opinion of all.  Christian Klepp  28:34 So you’re talking about the founder, right? The founder Vincent Weberink  28:36 Yeah. About the founder? Yes, yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, because they look, you know, there might be a great marketer or great salesperson who have very strong ideas, and they might, you know, accept inputs, but it’s typically the founder that will then say, yeah, now if you know, it’s my money, so I’m going to just do it my way, and it’s wrong, because you’re now letting your emotion again, getting In the way. And this example that I gave you with the play button that was sort of happened while I was in the process of creating that methodology that I use, which is sort of based on me having read 1000 books where I really struggled that most of the books, even though they’re written for startups, if you really dive into it, they’re actually more for startup teams and corporates, very often, the way they’re described, that you just can’t apply them to normal startups, because normal startups work differently. And what I then did is I sort of took all of the models in there, and then figured out, what if you combine them, crunch them, and then create this methodology. And I was doing that for myself, because I really struggled, having done so many startups, and then I found, okay, so now I have this methodology. I just kept doing it. Kept. Believing that ultimately, it would work with the idea that sometimes you know on this path and that other people need to help you to sort of step out of your comfort zone and sometimes think from the left, from the other side, because your growth might come from a different direction, and which could even be true within your customer persona. You think you have the persona, right. But while you’re digging and running the experiments, it might be the persona next door which is the true, real customer, and you just need to uncover that by believing in that methodology. So… Christian Klepp  30:40 Absolutely, absolutely. You know, we did one of those exercises in Q2 with a client that had was very convinced of their ICP (Ideal Customer Profile). And then we went through this exercise where we did, um, we did a diagnosis on the ICP to determine, like, is this the right is this actually the right ICP you should be going after, right? So I’m 100% with you on that one. Okay, my friend, we come to the point where we’re talking about actionable tips, and it’s really just a recap of all the great recommendations you’ve given us already. So just imagine that there’s a SaaS (Software as a Service) marketing team out there, or somebody in B2B marketing that’s listening to this conversation. They’re like, wow, that’s exactly what I’m going through right now. So what are the maybe three to five things you would say they can take action on, like right now? Vincent Weberink  31:31 First of all, understanding you know, coming to the realization that whatever you know is probably wrong. Which is, which is the hardest thing to do. The second thing is you should really start working by using ideation and designing experiments, create MVPs fail as fast as you can, because that’s the way you learn as quickly as you can. And I sort of describe that in my book that I just launched, because it, you know, yes and into the same problem. Also, you know, trust your team. Trust that other people have great ideas as well. And very often, the great ideas come from the people that otherwise wouldn’t, wouldn’t say anything and be as creative as possible. Try to prime yourself by just, you know, search online, what are great growth, growth hacks or other marketing tips and tricks, and then try to figure out, how can I apply those? How can I use those as potential experiments? Because that way you can just simply move forward. But you know, if you’re stuck, get external help, because they’re like people like yourself, you know, who can really help to sort of leapfrog this, because otherwise, you’re just stuck and trying to learn, and while you’re running out of money, you have no time. Most starters will last for six months, and then they’ve run out of money, prove that you’re right before you build anything. And that is really, I think, the most important. And so the last tip I want to give, don’t just start building any product, because you will fail. It’s not for nothing that 95% of startups fails within within the first couple of years. It’s because, you know, you believe that people will flock and will love whatever you’re building. But the reality is just very, very different, and it might be the smallest thing that you get wrong, but you know that’s enough to fail, so… Christian Klepp  33:46 Prove that you’re right before you build anything. I mean, if there’s anything that the audience should be taking away from this conversation, I think it’s that sentence, right? Absolutely, that’s fantastic. Thanks again for sharing those tips, and I hope the audience is taking as many notes as I am during our conversation. Okay, two more questions before I let you go, Vincent, so here comes the bonus question. So you’re, this is the understatement of the year, but you’re a bit of a nomad, right? Like you’re originally from the Netherlands, you’ve lived in Greece, and now you’ve relocated, I think the last time we spoke, you were in Florence, and now you’ve moved somewhere else in northern Italy, right? So how has this lifestyle impacted you, personally and professionally? I mean, it’s clearly changed your view of the world, I’m sure. Vincent Weberink  34:39 Yes, so somehow I felt I was always stuck in the Netherlands as an entrepreneur. Because especially in the past, there is this thing, and I like to joke about it, where the Americans have the not invented syndrome, not invented here syndrome, the Dutch people have the invented hair syndrome, which means it’s all your Dutch. So therefore it can’t be good. And I felt I was very often, sort of, you know, locked up. And at the same time, the world is getting smaller and smaller every day. And I was lucky, being in technology, that we were able to then start moving abroad. And in all fairness, some of the moves we’ve done were actually caused because of the failures we’ve had, not that we run away or anything, but it was sort of, I was trying to do something locally. It didn’t really work. And then it was time for new challenges. And I found, always have found a lot of energy being able to now live in a completely different country, with a different language, with a different culture, and that really enriched my life. I started to look at things very, very differently, especially learning that everyone has a different view, whereas as a young person, I always had a very strong opinion, and the world had to be the way I saw it. But nothing is further from culture plays an incredibly important role on how people perceive things, how to behave, what kind of products they buy, how you should sell. Language plays an incredible, incredibly important role. So, yeah, I guess I was, I can’t say I was lucky because I created my own luck. I created my own decisions. I was lucky that my lovely wife and son have always supported me and that we’ve been on this journey through seven countries in the last 20 years. Yeah, and we’re in Italy at the moment. Indeed. Christian Klepp  36:35 Wow. Seven countries. Yeah, yeah. Amazing. Amazing. Yeah. That’s about the same number as in terms of my own experience. Like, I live in Canada now, and that’s country number seven. So there’s more, there’s more of us out there than you think, right? Like, exactly. So it’s very similar to my story. But, like, how’s your Italian? By the way. Vincent Weberink  36:57 It’s getting there. I’m studying hard at the moment, and, yeah, we sort of arrived here in January. Officially, my son is studying at university, and he’s finishing. But I guess, you know, I speak some Spanish, so Italian is slightly easier. Yeah. Christian Klepp  37:16 It’s, yeah, it is helpful. I realized, like, I also speak a certain level of Spanish, and that helped me get by even in a country like Portugal, where, Let’s appreciate it’s a complete it’s a different language, but there are some similarities. So they can understand what I’m saying, they’ll just answer in Portuguese, as long as you also understand what they’re saying, more or less. Yeah, I mean, I try to figure it out, and then they, they’ll, they’ll speak slowly, and I’m like, okay, okay, I got it. Obrigado, all right. Like, fantastic, fantastic. Vincent. Thank you so much for coming on the show and for sharing your experience and your expertise with the listeners. So please, a quick introduction to yourself and how people out there can get in touch with you. And by the way, I really love that we’re color coordinated. And for those that are listening to the audio version of this, we’re both wearing, like denim colored outfits. Vincent Weberink  38:11 Well, thank you Christian. Thank you very much for having me. It was a real pleasure. Yeah, of course. You know. My name is Vincent Weberink. My email is vincent@webberink.com and if anyone has any questions or potentially is interested in the book that I’ve just released, which is condensing 1000 books and failures and success, then of course, please, please get in touch with me. Thank you again. Christian Klepp  38:42 Fantastic, fantastic, and we’ll be sure to include a link to your book in the show notes. So once again, Vincent, thank you so much for your time. Take care. Stay safe and talk to you soon. Vincent Weberink  38:53 Looking forward, Christian, thank you very much. Take care.  Christian Klepp  38:56 Thank you. Bye for now. 

Matthew Pollard (Founder, Rapid Growth®), who shares expert insights and proven strategies on how to leverage storytelling for B2B marketing success. Matthew discussed the significance of storytelling and specialization in B2B marketing. He also emphasized the need for differentiation in B2B companies by focusing on a specific niche rather than targeting everyone.

Michael Liebowitz (Founder, Magnetic Mind Studio), who shares proven strategies and expert insights on how to create a B2B message that can't be ignored. Michael emphasized the need to align messaging with the “critter brain,” which places value on emotions and survival. He explained why B2B marketers must communicate the main outcome delivered by their service and the core beliefs of their business.

Adrian Dahlin (Founder & CEO, Searchtosale.io), who shares proven strategies and expert insights on how your B2B content can be found by AI search. Adrian discussed the evolving SEO landscape in the age of AI and highlighted the switch from traditional channel strategies to an authority strategy that builds trust and brand recognition.

Hyein Yoon (Founder, HY Marketing), who shares proven marketing strategies and expert insights on how to build a successful content strategy for the Korean market. Hyein highlighted some of the key differences between Western and Korean B2B marketing approaches. She discussed the importance of understanding the hierarchical systems, the relationship-driven nature of conducting business, and how these influence decision-making in Korea.

Nicholle Stacey (Chief Marketing Officer, Altitude B2B), who shares proven marketing strategies and expert insights on how successful B2B companies are increasing their web traffic. Nicholle highlighted the importance of conducting a comprehensive website audit to identify technical SEO issues and improve domain health.

Sam Dunning (Founder, Breaking B2B), who shares proven B2B marketing strategies and expert insights on how marketing teams can drive pipeline growth in 90 days. Sam discussed the importance and challenges of SEO for B2B companies, and emphasized that SEO is crucial for mature markets with active demand. He talked about common pitfalls to avoid, such as the “traffic trap,” low-intent keywords, and focusing too much on high traffic.

Braedi DeLong (COO, The Sales Collective), on how understanding your B2B buyers can drive predictable growth. Braedi explained why the outdated “spray and pray” approach is no longer effective, and emphasized the need for targeted, intentional marketing. She expanded on the importance of clearly defining a realistic Ideal Customer Profile (ICP) and understanding stakeholder dynamics.

Doug Abbott (CEO, Contrasted Marketing), who shares proven strategies on how to create powerful B2B messaging that converts.Doug discussed the importance of B2B marketers tailoring messaging to address the specific concerns, needs, and priorities of the different buying committee members.

David J. Ebner (Founder, Content Workshop), who shares insights and expert strategies on how to make your B2B marketing stand out.David emphasized the need to create unique, insightful, and customer-centric content that doesn't disrupt the audience's flow. He also discussed the importance of giving away actionable advice to demonstrate true expertise and build trust.

Ronan McDonnell (Managing Director, CMO Mojo), who shares proven strategies on how to go from outbound to a 95% inbound marketing approach. Ronan explained how B2B companies can best leverage inbound strategies for reducing headcount in sales, improve the quality of leads, and attract potential investors.

Layton Cox (Senior Director of Competitive Intelligence & Strategy Consulting, Sedulo Group), who shared his experience and provided valuable insights on how to strengthen your B2B differentiation with competitive intelligence. Layton emphasized the importance of primary research over the reliance on secondary data, and elaborated on the value of internal data and direct competitor insights.

Maggie Carey (CEO, Master It Media LLC), who shared proven strategies on how B2B businesses leverage social media for exponential growth. Maggie explained why a human-centric approach focusing on addressing client pain points and storytelling is crucial. She also elaborated on the winning Three C's Framework: consistency, clarity, and capacity.

Michael Clark (Chief Marketing Officer, Infrascale), who shared proven strategies on how marketing teams can drive growth with fewer resources. Michael highlighted the importance of marketing agility, leveraging real-time data, and integrating customer feedback into marketing decisions. He also stressed why aligning marketing teams with sales and other internal stakeholders using metrics like pipeline and revenue is critical to success.

Jason Kramer (Founder & CEO, Cultivize), who shared his experience and expertise on how to transform B2B marketing into a profit center. Jason highlighted the importance of linking marketing initiatives to sales results and collecting vital data such as referral sources. He also elaborated on how to use CRM platforms to track leads and stressed the need for stronger marketing and sales alignment.

Kenny Ridgell (Founder, Ridge Media LLC) shared tried and tested strategies on how to leverage actionable metrics to drive predictable growth. Kenny emphasized the importance of understanding a company's sales cycle, prioritizing high-impact metrics, and simplifying data analysis. He also elaborated on how integrating CRM systems can improve marketing attribution and enable full-funnel visibility.

Jeff Hoffman (Founder & Chief Revenue Officer, Jeff Hoffman, CRO), who shared best practices and strategies on how to gear teams up for phenomenal business success. Jeff highlighted the disconnect that arises when marketing teams hand off unqualified leads to sales. He also emphasized the need for creating a collaborative sales and marketing framework, including sales involvement in lead generation and developing marketing strategies.

Tye DeGrange (CEO, Round Barn Labs), who shared tried and tested strategies on how B2B marketers can build trust for better results. Tye emphasized the importance of partnering with trusted industry voices such as influencers and affiliates to help build trust, demonstrate expertise, and drive measurable results. He also elaborated on how technology, social media, content authenticity, and customer persona alignment impact trust-building initiatives.

Chris Silvestri (Founder & Conversion Copywriter, Conversion Alchemy), who shared some proven strategies on how B2B SaaS marketers can achieve strong message-market fit.Chris explained why effective conversion copywriting is more than just clever words - it's about capturing insights from customer research, team alignment, and understanding buyer psychology.

Raja Walia (CEO & Founder, GNW Consulting) who shared some proven strategies on how to optimize your martech implementation for marketing success. Raja emphasized the importance of aligning technology with business goals to set your team up for long-term success. He also shared some common pitfalls that teams should avoid and stressed the need for proper planning, accountability, and enablement.

Brynna DeSantiago (Head of Marketing, Encapture) on how to leverage events to drive B2B marketing success. Brynna discussed the importance of personalized outreach, common event marketing mistakes to avoid, and how smaller, more targeted events can deliver greater impact. She also highlighted the critical role of sales and marketing alignment and to conduct effective post-event follow-ups.

Andreas Voniatis (Founder, Artios.io), who shared proven strategies on how to future-proof your B2B content marketing strategy for AI search engines. Andreas emphasized the need for high-quality, insight-rich content that adds unique value to target audiences. He also highlighted the key differences between traditional SEO and SEO needed for AI search engines, and talked about common pitfalls to avoid.

Skip Wilson (CEO, Draft Media Partners) on how to turn around an underperforming marketing campaign. Skip highlighted the importance of recognizing that every campaign has room for improvement. He discussed why a systematic approach is important and why the need for clear audience targeting and effective messaging is paramount.

Brook Shepard (Founder & CEO, Mason Interactive), who shared proven strategies on how to think creatively and get new customers in B2B. Brook emphasized the importance of focusing on breaking through the noise rather than just relying on technology. He also highlighted the need to understand churn ratios, set specific customer targets, and advocated for a diversified media strategy.

Sivan Ohavim (CEO, Elevate Media), who shared insights on how B2B companies can strategically leverage LinkedIn to grow their audience and generate qualified leads. Sivan discussed why personalized outreach outperforms generic campaigns and talked about how to build targeted, high-quality lead lists that focus on specific buyer pain points.

Rebecca Shaddix (Founder & Managing Partner, Strategica Partners) on how to turn complex data into actionable B2B marketing strategies. Rebecca emphasized the importance of setting a clear strategy and highlighted the need for defining acceptable mistakes, aligning cross-functional teams early, and avoiding common pitfalls that impede performance.

Ermeric Ernoult (Co-Founder, Agorapulse), who shares powerful insights on how to drive B2B marketing success with social media. Emeric explained how to measure social media success and which approach he recommends marketers leverage for better results. He also provided actionable tips on how to get buy-in from senior management, outlined the key pitfalls to avoid, and elaborated on how marketers can simplify attribution to ensure they're focusing on the right metrics.

SaaS marketing expert Scott Cate (Founder, 301.Pro), who shares powerful insights on how sophisticated link management unlocks growth for B2B companies. Scott explained what Time-of-Day Marketing is, what it means for B2B businesses, and how marketers can use it to improve engagement and conversion rates.

B2B SaaS marketing leader Brandon Ring on how teams can leverage HubSpot for B2B marketing success. Brandon discussed why teams are setting themselves up for failure if they don't fully utilize HubSpot and emphasized the benefits of lead scoring, closed-loop reporting, and evergreen campaigns.

Tom Schwab (Founder & Chief Evangelist Officer, Interview Valet) on how strategic marketing leads to more profitable clients. Tom discussed why high-level clients are more responsive to meaningful conversations, such as targeted podcast interviews, rather than the conventional marketing funnel. He also emphasized the importance of understanding the client's unique needs and leveraging data-driven research to identify the right platforms.

Bill Rice (Principal Consultant, Bill Rice Strategy Group) on how 90-day marketing plans drive predictable growth in B2B. Bill outlined a proven framework for the 90-day marketing plan that strikes a balance between strategic planning with tactical execution. He also shared insights into common pitfalls to avoid, the importance of simplifying marketing tools, and the need for cross-functional collaboration to achieve success.

James Hurman (Founding Partner, Previously Unavailable) on how creativity leads to better results in B2B marketing. James emphasized the need for evidence-based marketing, advocating for a balanced budget between brand building and sales-focused advertising. He also outlined the pitfalls to avoid, the significance of executional quality, and the impact of familiarity bias.

Rai Cornell (Founder & CEO, Cornell Content Marketing) on how to get 90% pre-sold buyers using psychology-driven marketing. Rai advised against using manipulative tactics and emphasizes the power of long-form content to attract and engage audiences. She also discussed common pitfalls to avoid, the role of humor in building rapport, and the importance of prioritizing long-term content success over short-term revenue gains.

Dan Balcauski (Principal Consultant, Product Tranquility) on how customer segmentation directly influences B2B pricing strategies. Dan did a deep dive into the value cascade, which includes use value, exchange value, perceived value, and willingness to pay.

Becky Lawlor (Head of Content and Research, Redpoint) on how to discover what content drives B2B buyers to act. Becky emphasizes the importance of original research-based content in B2B marketing. She also outlined the key pitfalls to avoid, revealed which content formats are valued by buyers, and offered some practical tips on conducting interviews and crafting customer stories.

Aya Saad (CEO, Vivian Agency) on how B2B companies can effectively utilize affiliate and influencer programs to propel growth. Aya highlighted what she believes the “untapped opportunities” are for B2B, and outline some of the key do's and don'ts for successful affiliate and influencer marketing.

Laurier Mandin (President & CEO, Graphos Product) on how small B2B marketing teams can outperform larger competitors. Laurier highlighted how having a deep understanding of customer needs and developing a solid go-to-market strategy can lead to success. He also mentioned key pitfalls to avoid and provided actionable advice for validating a business, product, or service idea without a massive research budget.

Host Christian Klepp summarizes the B2B marketing highlights of 2024. He discusses the different B2B marketing categories, talks about the guests, and provides tips on what the audience would find useful in each episode.

Elzie Flenard III (Founder & CEO, Podcast Town) on how B2B companies can build strong communities for growth. Elzie advised against quick, superficial, and transactional efforts and emphasized the need for intentionality, understanding the audience, and building trust. He also discussed the key pitfalls to avoid and provided examples of how communities can help B2B companies become authorities in their niche.

Elzie Flenard III (Founder & CEO, Podcast Town) on how B2B companies can build strong communities for growth. Elzie advised against quick, superficial, and transactional efforts and emphasized the need for intentionality, understanding the audience, and building trust. He also discussed the key pitfalls to avoid and provided examples of how communities can help B2B companies become authorities in their niche.

Eisha Armstrong (Executive Chairman & Co-Founder, Vecteris) on how to effectively promote productized B2B services for maximum impact. She explained why the successful commercialization of productized offerings are much more than marketing campaign and training sellers. She also highlighted the main pitfalls to avoid, what the biggest obstacles are when companies productize, and how they can get to revenue faster and more efficiently.

B2B content expert Jamie Woodbridge (Co-Founder, TheInboxClub) on how to implement better B2B email marketing campaigns. Jamie discussed the untapped potential of email marketing and the importance of first-party data and high-quality subscribers. He also highlighted the pitfalls to avoid, key metrics to focus on, and how data privacy and AI impact email marketing.

Jessica Deckinger (Operating Partner, Clearhaven Partners) on how B2B companies can use videos to improve every part of the customer journey. During our conversation, Jessica dispels the common misconception that video production is a huge endeavor that requires specialized skills and expensive resources. She also highlights which pitfalls to avoid, and how to get internal buy-in.

Hamish Knox (CEO, Sandler Calgary) talks about how B2B sales and marketing can work together to generate better results. He explained why this conflict persists and what pitfalls to avoid. He also provided actionable tips on how marketing can proactively work with sales and how to get them involved in upcoming marketing initiatives that will resonate with customers.

Dale Thomas (Founder, ActionableOps) on how B2B marketers can leverage AI for market research. During our conversation, Dale reiterated the importance of embracing the use of AI for research purposes. He also highlighted the pitfalls to avoid and how B2B marketers can better organize their approach when they plan for market research, find experts, and synthesize data.

Indrek Poldvee (Chief Executive Officer, B2B Growth) on how B2B marketers can leverage the untapped potential of LinkedIn. Indrek explained what LinkedIn's untapped potential is and what pitfalls to avoid. He also highlighted the importance of having a good LinkedIn profile and why an understanding of your target audience, having the right strategy, and the right messaging are paramount. He provided us with some actionable tips.

Jessica Malnik (Founder, JM Content Group) on how marketers can build a content moat that creates lasting results for B2B brands. She talked about why she thinks the current B2B content marketing playbook is broken. She also highlighted the pitfalls that B2B content marketers should avoid, what the content moat consists of, and how content marketers can use AI ethically.

James Hipkin (CEO & Founder, Inn8ly) on how avatars of your target audience and buyer's journey maps are crucial to B2B marketing success. James elaborated on the pitfalls that marketers should avoid and what important aspects of customer research they should focus on. He also provided tips on how to get internal buy-in to conduct the relevant research.

Shreya Banerjee and Paul Counts (Co-Founders of Marketing Counts) on how to build profitable organic B2B content strategies. Shreya and Paul highlighted the pitfalls to avoid and provide tips on the type of research that should be conducted. They also explained why a well-defined customer avatar and a mix of content types are important, and which metrics to pay attention to.