B2B Marketers on a Mission

How to Fix Your Underperforming B2B SaaS Funnel for Quick Revenue Wins In the fast-paced world of B2B SaaS, the ability to go to market, iterate on feedback, and close deals rapidly is the ultimate competitive advantage. Unfortunately, many sales and marketing teams find themselves stalled by underperforming funnels that drain resources without delivering measurable results. When growth plateaus, the challenge lies in transforming these stagnant pipelines into high-velocity growth engines without requiring massive capital or long timelines. So, how can B2B SaaS teams identify the hidden leaks in their customer journey and unlock quick-win revenue through a strategic, data-driven approach? That's why we're talking to April Syed (CEO of Aperture Codex), who shares her expertise on fixing an underperforming B2B SaaS funnel for quick revenue wins. During our conversation, April discussed the importance of leveraging data to pinpoint “quick wins,” such as streamlining sales processes and eliminating high-friction points in user onboarding. She explained how to fix “conversion killers” like messaging misalignment and highlighted the necessity of aligning marketing and sales efforts to ensure a seamless experience. April also advocated for a culture of continuous testing, using small, incremental experiments to de-risk major strategic shifts. She emphasized the value of regular customer journey mapping to maintain a predictable, sustainable, and highly efficient path to profitable growth. https://youtu.be/VeeFMznhCfw Topics discussed in episode: [07:24] Why your Ideal Customer Profile (ICP) must be a “living, breathing” document reviewed quarterly, not a static file sitting in a deck. [11:24] The critical mistake of treating marketing as a cost center rather than a revenue driver, and how it leads to “vanity metrics” over actual sales. [13:53] Why you should focus on small, incremental tests to “de-risk” big spends before committing to expensive strategies like rebrands. [18:05] The 5-Point Conversion Diagnostic: A framework to analyze time-to-value, messaging alignment, behavioral triggers, follow-up timing, and pricing friction. [23:07] A real-world example of how “pricing friction” (forcing an annual upgrade) caused a loyal promoter to churn to a competitor. [27:24] How to audit your funnel for “Quick Win” revenue opportunities in under 30 days by analyzing where deals stall in the CRM. [35:27] Why no marketing asset is ever “final”, and why high-traffic landing pages should be in a state of constant A/B testing. Companies and links mentioned: Apryl Syed on LinkedIn  Aperture Codex  Superhuman Notion  Motion Transcript Christian Klepp, Apryl Syed Apryl Syed  00:00 Brand for instance, doesn’t work itself into any metric, but it makes every metric better across the board. Sometimes we’re chasing these metrics and like the attribution of where a particular deal came from, or how did they find out about us, and we’re not thinking about all of the things that are outside in the flywheel that are, you know, causing that person to, yes, eventually convert. But were there seven or eight other things that kind of they interacted with. Christian Klepp  00:26 In the world of B2B SaaS speed is the name of the game. Get to market, quickly collect feedback, quickly iterate quickly and close deals quickly. But what happens if your sales and marketing teams get stuck with underperforming funnels that don’t generate the results you need? How can teams turn these funnels into growth machines without massive spend or long timelines? Welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers on a Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp, today, I’ll be talking with Apryl Syed, who will be answering this question. She’s the CEO of ApertureCodex who gives founders the strategy and the psychology needed to jump into fast revenue gains. Let’s dive in. Okay, and away we go. Apryl Syed, welcome to the show. Apryl Syed  01:12 Thank you so much, Christian. I’m so excited to be here. Christian Klepp  01:15 Glad to have you on the show. I think we had such a great pre interview conversation. I kept telling myself I should have hit record, and I talked to you the first time, right? But, you know, two times is a charm or three times. But anyways, this is the second time we’re talking. So I’m really looking forward to this conversation Apryl, because we’re going to touch on a topic today that I think is not just relevant to sales teams. It’s really important to marketing teams as well. So I’m going to keep the audience in suspense just a little while longer while I set up this first question. Right? So you’re on a mission to help B2B SaaS teams turn underperforming funnels into growth machines without massive spend or lengthy timelines, and for people that didn’t hear that the first time, I think everybody wants something like that, right, quick results without spending massively, right? So for this conversation, I’d like to focus on the following topic and just unpack it from there, right? So how can SaaS teams leverage a quick win revenue approach for better and more predictable growth. And I mean, come on Apryl, who the heck doesn’t want that, right? Who doesn’t want predictable growth, right? So I want to kick off this conversation with two questions, and I’m happy to repeat them. So first one is, where do you see many SaaS teams struggle with revenue growth? And the second question is, what are some of the key causes of this? Apryl Syed  02:44 It’s really great, by the way. As a side note, I got turned down for a podcast this week because they said I talked too much about quick wins, and they felt that it conflicted with their policy. I won’t mention the name, they’re an agency out there, but they were all about big spend, and they felt that I conflicted with that. And this exactly ties in. This is probably why the subject that I talk about so. Christian Klepp  03:13 Well, I’m sorry for them. Apryl Syed  03:15 Yeah, that’s okay. That’s okay. We don’t, we don’t match. You know, I’m not for everyone. Well, I think that, like SaaS teams don’t realize that they’ve got data. And within their data really, really lies some of the tweaks, opportunities and things like that that can make them extra revenue that they might not be looking at today. And I think, you know, perhaps it’s in tweaking their sales process. Maybe they don’t have a sales process misalignment between sales and marketing. Marketing is talking about one thing, sales is selling another thing, or could be marketing is marketing to one type of industry and user, and sales is saying that’s not the right user. It’s something completely different, that misalignment in itself causes revenue conflict, revenue opportunities. And you know, sometimes it’s spending on expensive tools before you’ve actually broken down some of those points in the funnel. Or could be tools that you’re getting a lot of data from, or they’re not doing anything with the data on a regular basis. So I think, you know, those are where I see some of those, like, struggle with revenue because of some of those issues and and then I think your second question was kind of like, well, how to, how do they kind of avoid some of those scenarios? Right? Christian Klepp  04:40 It was more about the the key causes, but you but, but you did talk about that already, right?   Apryl Syed  04:44 So, right, right? That definitely is there. Well, I think, you know, it’s also could be, you know, where they’re chasing certain metrics and focused in, and we had this conversation earlier. It’s like brand, for instance, doesn’t work at. Yourself into any metric, but it makes every metric better across the board. So sometimes we’re chasing these metrics and like the attribution of where a particular deal came from, or how did they find out about us, and we’re not thinking about all of the things that are outside in the flywheel that are, you know, causing that person to, yes, eventually convert. But were there seven or eight other things that kind of they interacted with before they got to that point? And we had to get them ready? So, you know, can definitely be about just chasing those metrics too much, which means you avoid doing things that don’t give you that instant metric. And I think that is a big challenge and pitfall that that teams can can certainly fall into. I think also the the challenge of treating marketing as a cost center and not letting them be in charge of all of those metrics down to the sale that happen. And that might sound weird to some folks, but I’ve certainly been in enough teams and enough experiences across you know my background that I’ve seen that sometimes you can make a change in marketing. It produces a lot of leads, but those leads aren’t qualifying and they’re not turning into revenue, and yet, if the metric is producing leads, well then marketing can walk away the end of the day and meet their metrics and jobs, but if the metric is revenue, then they’ve got to go all the way to that end cycle and see that it’s a qualified opportunity. That, of course, goes back to my original point that if sales and marketing aren’t in lock sync with each other, and they don’t have a good relationship and dynamic, then it ends up in finger pointing when things aren’t going wrong, instead of both teams coming together, being on the same page and figuring out what’s going to work. And that’s that’s really the key. Christian Klepp  07:03 Absolutely, absolutely. And I think you might have brought it up, and maybe I didn’t catch it, and if not, I apologize. But like, one of the things that I didn’t notice, too, is, like, this misalignment of who, who the who the ICP (Ideal Customer Profile) is, like the assumptions that both sides have and then somehow they just cannot meet in the middle. Apryl Syed  07:24 Well, I kind of brought it up just slight when I said that marketing might be marketing to one person, and sales is selling to another, but if we just want to double click, you know, on on that, that agreement around the ICP, the reason why it’s so important, and I think it’s hard for some SaaS companies, because there’s, there could be a lot of ICPs. And I kind of have this philosophy that with an ICP, people usually maybe do these personas, as I call them, one time, maybe at a, you know, a planning session or whatever, where they’re kicking off, you know, and kind of like planning who those are, and then they leave them. They sit in a deck somewhere. They’re never looked at again. They’re never revised. I like a more fluid method with personas. I like personas to kind of be active, living and breathing in something that’s reviewed on a quarterly basis, I think is a better cadence. And the reason being is, like, we want to see how many deals we’ve closed in that particular area, how many so we should be looking at the metrics right by persona. We should also look at the messaging by persona to see how that’s working. And we should, you know, look at our team and how that flow has gone through into the sales process by persona. And kind of looking at this lens, we may figure out that one persona is working really, really well, or two or three might be working really well. And maybe there’s two or three that aren’t working really well. We might want to flush those out or put them in, what I would say is like a vault or a holding pattern. They might come back later if something’s happened, and we might want to add different ones. And the reason why quarterly is important is because, if you are selling business to business, for instance, in that business environment, there are different things that might be happening in the world, you know, geographically, politically, that might be impacting a certain persona. And it’s important to also look at that lens on a quarterly basis and say, Okay, what’s the mindset of this particular persona? What are they dealing with? What are some of their issues? What are their pressures? What is their emotional state, and then how do we want to message into that emotional state during this time? How do we want to change and revise our messaging for what’s going on in their world right now, this quarter, right you can’t keep you can’t keep messaging the same and messaging constant needs to be looked at. I would say, on a regular basis, one to check and make sure it’s working. If it’s working, keep it working at some time. At some point, though, it might stop working, and it’s important to catch that as you see those numbers trailing off, as you see that change, and not wait until too long has passed and just double down on the same persona for the sake of really work, working with it, because it was the original plan. Christian Klepp  10:27 Yeah, absolutely, absolutely these, um, these personas are, and I believe that too, they it’s not something that that’s written in stone, and then you, you to use that archaic expression, just keep it on the shelf, and then it collects dust, right? Apryl Syed  10:40 Yeah Christian Klepp  10:41 It’s something that should be monitored, as you said, because certain certain companies are working in industries where, for example, government regulation impacts them. Apryl Syed  10:51 Yes. Christian Klepp  10:52 If government regulation changes, then that perhaps also influences the way they make decisions, or decide to work with external vendors and partners and so forth, right? Apryl Syed  11:05 Absolutely. Christian Klepp  11:07 You brought you brought up a few already in the past couple of minutes. I’m just, I just want to go back to pitfall. So one of them, I think, was chasing this, chasing metrics. Right? This, this habit of constantly chasing metrics. What are some of these other pitfalls that you’d say marketing teams should avoid them. What should they be doing instead? Apryl Syed  11:24 Well, I think, you know, another pitfall that I’ve seen is kind of launching a big rebrand and expecting, you know, or that could also be a plot, a platform overhaul, software overhaul, and expecting that that’s going to move the needle faster when you could test that type of messaging out in really small ways before you go and do that big rebrand. And I’m a big fan of those, like small tests, verify and then go big. Like I’m not I’m not saying don’t ever go big. What I’m saying is like, test and measure before you go into a big cut, a big, fresh rebrand, because it’s expensive, and you want those big, expensive expenditures to be a little bit more of a sure thing than a risky thing. So de risk the big spends, riskier moves. Do small, incremental tests and say, how could we test this out on a small scale. How could we test or rebrand out? How could we test a platform change out before we do that in a small way? So I think that’s another one. I talked about a cost center. Treating marketing as a cost center is another one. So I think those are, like my big, my big three, I would say, in terms of pitfalls. Christian Klepp  12:41 Yeah, fantastic, fantastic. You, you hit on something there with your with your third point. And I want to go to that, because that’s a topic that, um, that as a marketer, personally, it riles me up a little bit, but, like, you know, but, but we have to look at this as professionals too, and say, okay, you know what? In the world of B2B, that type of pushback is almost expected, right? Because I’m not sure what your experience has been. But I also work with a lot of companies that have done either little or no marketing before, so it’s, it’s to a certain extent, it’s like Terra Australis incognita. It’s uncharted territory. They are not sure what to expect. So it’s only, it’s only normal that they, that they view it with some kind of, I wouldn’t go so far as to say, suspicion, but yeah. Like, how do you know it’s gonna work, right? So over to you. Like, what’s your experience been? How do you deal with companies that view marketing with that kind of suspicion or or have these doubts, like, Is this even going to work for us? Right? How do you deal with that? Apryl Syed  13:53 Well, I mean, from my perspective, I think again, I go back to the small tests, small wins in those beginning, like, let’s get our sea legs before we go and launch some big strategy. And I think that’s, you know, a big divide between, you know, maybe myself and yourself and some other you know, marketing agencies and firms out there is, I would rather get small, incremental wins to start. I’m not against big strategies and big spends. I think they’re both needed, but when you’re kind of coming into a team that’s either had little to no success with marketing, because maybe they’ve had some bad experiences with agencies that haven’t delivered, or they’ve tried ads, or they’ve tried this thing and they kind of have that bad taste in their mouth, right? Or they just have not done anything at all, and perhaps they’ve, they’ve grown despite that. So they’re kind of like, Hey, I’ve seen success without doing this. So why? Why do I need this? So I think an educational approach is important, kind of giving the here’s the industry benchmarks, here’s what we should. See, here’s how we are going to test. Here’s a recommended way that we do small, incremental tests. And then I also think a really, really important piece is, if it’s a company that’s been around long enough is to dive into that data I have. I have a customer that I would say sits in this category. They’ve grown tremendously. They’ve had a very successful business, and they’ve never marketed before. And if I were to come in there with some big rebrand strategy, big moves, look at me like you’re crazy. We don’t need that. I mean, in all honesty, what are they looking for? They’re looking for incremental revenue gains. So how am I going to produce incremental revenue gains? I’m going to look at their data and see where there’s holes in gaps today, where, yes, marketing, but marketing is a very, very broad term. Marketing can be brands, marketing could be emails, marketing can be social media. Marketing can be customer advocacy, customer emails churn, you know, upgrading customers into other models. So when I say I look at data, I look at what their customers are doing, and what I get from that is, where is my ideal customer, because it’s going to show me in their base. So who might I want to go after and experiment with? First, those are going to be my biggest areas for opportunity of wins, where, with their existing customer base, can I sell something more or different for them to increase revenue in that way? I think that’s another big and then I look at where there may be failures across the process in their data. If it’s a SaaS company, let’s look at their free the trial, trial, you know, to paid, paid to churn, and look at those numbers and say, are they hitting industry standard for their industry? Can I improve any of these metrics? Let me go look at all of the various different things that are going to change these metrics. Where can I start to experiment to get incremental change? That’s how you give success to a team. And they start feeling like, Okay, we should invest more here. We should do more here, because it’s working. Now, let’s double down. Let’s triple down. Let’s do more, then you can go after those bigger strategies. Christian Klepp  17:26 Yep, yep, no, absolutely, absolutely, no. I’m glad, I’m glad you brought those up, because that’s a great segue into the next question, which I think you’re all too familiar with, right? So I think when we first talked, right in our previous conversation you were talking, you mentioned something called a five point conversion diagnostic, which uncovers, I think you refer to them as conversion killers, right? You can cover these conversion killers without expensive tools or massive product like changes or revamps, right? So if you could please walk us through this five point approach and how teams can leverage that. Apryl Syed  18:05 Now this is particularly for SaaS, that trial to onboarding experience and the time that I the thing that I look for the most in there is time to value. How long does it take for the customer to experience value is going to be indicative of how long their trial has to be with that onboarding experience, and are they legitimately going to get into the point of buying early, even because they can’t wait to utilize this tool or buying, of course, the moment that the trial, the trial the trial ends. That is all about time to value. The second is about messaging alignment. So does the promise that we give, if it’s a landing page, whatever that experience is that someone comes through to then get to that product, does the promise of what we’re giving them match what the experience is going to be in the software, and how long does it take again, from that time to value, for them to get to that matched experience of what we promised that will also be a predictor of so if we were, you know, on a scale from zero to 10, 10 being like matched, it perfectly, zero being not matching at all, we’d want to rate our company on that scale, and kind of see for the time to value and for the misalignment, where are we? Then I would kind of go after like behavioral triggers, and I would try to figure out what actions correlate with conversion. So I would look at everybody that’s converted, and I would say, what parts of the software did they touch right? Are they looking at, are they experiencing, which then would predict, like, if people do these five things and the solution, then we know that they’re going to convert. And you can use either, like a Pender or you know, products like that that give you some of that analysis and data. Or maybe it’s, you know, sitting in your CRM, but that would tell you and inform you about your messaging as well. Like, what should we be messaging about? These are the key things that people want out of this solution, and that’s going to inform your next piece, which is, I would look at the follow up timing, the sequencing. How frequently do we talk? I often, I’m a big superhuman fan, and I talk about superhumans onboarding experience, which I think is awesome. And of course, they get a little bit of a leg up because they are an email solution, so they see when you’re in the tool. But I have found that, like the timely messages and the trickling of features that they give you right when you’re ready to use that feature has been so well thought out. And if you have, if you have not experienced it, and you’re a SaaS product owner, Founder, CEO, I highly encourage you to go through their onboarding experience, because that, to me, is like the pinnacle, or one of the pinnacles of what you should want your users to experience, like these just great aha moments right when they’re ready to receive them as part of that trial period before conversion. That make sure that we’re just touching them at the right moments. And then the last piece that I look at is pricing and packaging friction. And here’s, this is, you know, this is something that’s changing an awful lot right now. SaaS is under pressure to maybe look at not seeds, but maybe it’s volume, but then volume is not great, because people can’t predict it, and certainly can’t budget appropriately for it. So there is all kinds of pricing friction happening right now that needs to be figured out, but understanding where people are dropping off and where in that you know, how many clicks do they need to do before they buy? What is that whole buying process like? What is the upgrading process like? Put it through the pressure test. See how many steps it is. Challenge yourself. If you can reduce the steps, make it easier. I’ll give you an example. I was a big, big user of the motion app for a really long time. I probably sold, let’s say, 10 to 20 of these to other people, because I was such a promoter and such a fan of motion, they changed something in their solution related to how many credits, and what happened is it stopped recording my meetings for me automatically, which meant didn’t go into my notes anymore. Didn’t automatically create my tasks for me. That’s a pretty big feature, and obviously I so I went to upgrade, and the upgrade didn’t allow for me to choose a monthly it only allowed me to upgrade to choose an annual. Christian Klepp  23:06 Why? Apryl Syed  23:07 Yeah, which did what to me as the user. I then went into the shopping mode, essentially, and I said, Now I’m going to go shop and look at, well, what other tools are out there that can do the same functionality. Because now, if I have to commit to an annual plan, so much changing in AI this year, I’m not sure if I can commit to an annual plan. It had nothing to do with the amount of dollar spent. It had everything to do with commitment. And here I was a promoter of their solution. I ended up canceling and I went with notion, because I realized that notion had added a significant number of AI features at a much lower price, which I know a lot of people complain about notion being expensive, and it isn’t as good of a user experience now that I’m using motion and yet notion. Yet, I’m still on notion, and I left motion app, which is probably better, because they put me through this experience. And I say that as an example not to and I don’t know if they fix that, but we make these decisions all the time, sitting from our lens, looking at what we want the outcome to be, and we don’t think through what that user experience is going to be, and we’re killing conversions, in some cases, by these little levers and moves that we make, and sometimes we don’t even realize that. So I really encourage, encourage founders, encourage, you know, everyone at the company go back through and look at these tiny little things that each one of them on the loan alone could be costing you revenue, costing you conversions along the pathway. Christian Klepp  24:53 Absolutely, absolutely. And we’re working with a client that’s that’s an that’s in tech right now, and the thing that we keep. Talking about is you gotta, you know, yes, of course you’re excited if you start developing more features and what have you right? But look at this through the lens of the user, right? I mean, I can totally relate to your to your situation. I mean, even things like for example, and this is probably like oversimplifying it. But the last update that Instagram did is driving me absolutely crazy. Like, why would you update something your interface that has already been working for the users, and now? Why do you update it so and completely change where the buttons are on the layout so people have to waste time looking for worse, the send button. I mean, you know, it’s just beyond me, right? Apryl Syed  25:45 Yeah, and it’s funny, and they actually, Instagram, for a long while, did a lot of user testing before they would roll out features, and did these limited, I didn’t see any of that necessarily. With this last rollout. Christian Klepp  25:58 No. Apryl Syed  25:59 Apple did a very similar, like their latest update introduced many phone changes in terms of prioritization of, you know, messaging and all that sort of stuff. And it’s like a common we’re finding commonality saying, like, Oh man, I hate this latest I don’t know how many people have said I hate this latest update, and it’s because it’s created too much friction in the process. We need enough friction, but not too much friction. And that balance, in itself, unfortunately, is like the most difficult thing to figure out. And if you’re not talking to your customers, if you’re not talking to people, you will never figure it out, because you’ll be making an assumption. Christian Klepp  26:38 Exactly, exactly. Okay, so we talked about this at the beginning of the conversation, but you mentioned something called a quick win revenue framework. And I know from what you were telling me that that was a little bit controversial to somebody else you spoke to. Apryl Syed  26:55 Yeah. Christian Klepp  26:56 But you know what we are, we are all embracing in the show. You know. Apryl Syed  27:00 Thank you. Christian Klepp  27:00 Not not judgmental. But in fact, the focus here is to help B2B Marketers. In your case, B2B SaaS Marketers to become better and to improve. So if we’re going to focus on this quick win revenue framework, where would you identify low hanging revenue opportunities in under 30 days. So talk to us about that. Apryl Syed  27:24 Yes, well, it sits at this crossroads between marketing and sales, right? And that’s why you’ve got to have such a tight friendship relationship with you know, your sales leaders and your customer success leaders. I think it has to be like such a great ecosystem. So first thing I would do is pull CRM data. I would look at where deals are stalling, you know, I would map the current funnel with actual numbers of where you have people. I would overlay that with like the industry and kind of like the marketing messaging that is created those those types of deals. And kind of look at that from the lens of, okay, here’s what we’re creating, and here’s what sales is able to close easily. Here’s what’s really lagging and taking a long time in the funnel. And it’s not to say that, like, longer is better than shorter, because, like, an enterprise deal takes longer to close than a SMB (Small and Medium-sized Business) deal. So the answer isn’t always that the SMB deal is better, but looking at that and saying, Is there anything here that is that is giving me an indicator of something I can improve on? Can improve on. So that would be, you know, number one, go through that audit, take a look at the data, see what you’ve been producing from a marketing standpoint so far, and then say, is there anything that we should be testing to do differently better? You know, what are your hypotheses that you want to go out and you want to prove with some AB testing, two look at conversion killers, right? That’s either messaging, follow up, timing or onboarding friction, some sort of friction in the process. Friction could be a form fill too it could be, you know, too heavy, too long of landing page, I would look at every single detail and way that people are coming in through the funnel and say, are we doing anything to kill conversion and sometimes, and I’ve experienced this with one brand that I’m working with, and we have an agency that’s also in there that’s doing some ad performance, and they’re getting industry well above industry standard rates. And I asked the agency, because I’m sitting in kind of like my fractional executive role, and I said, Tell me out of your entire client, raw. Stair. Where does this client sit? And they said, Oh, at the top, best performing client we have, you know what that signaled to me? They’re comfortable. They’re getting great results. They’re not trying to improve anything. They’re just trying to hold the fort down and just keep getting these great results because they think that’s a place of safety. Christian Klepp  30:23 Stop rocking the boat Apryl. Apryl Syed  30:26 I know, I know, but I look at that and say, You’re not trying hard enough. You’re not examining right and going through the funnel and looking for all the tweaks and looking for. Christian Klepp  30:36 What can it improve? Apryl Syed  30:37 Can it be improved? You’re not trying to do any of that. And in fact, I’m adding that to you. I’m adding those things. I’m asking for those things, just because I come from that space and saying, like, Hey, we should be pushing here. We should be pushing here. We should be they don’t want to push. And they’re slow, slow, slow to react. And what’s going to happen is it’s going to earn them a change out in agency, right? Because they’re not pushing. Now, unfortunately, what I think is, if that was happening, obviously was happening before I was involved this customer, they thought they’re getting, they’re getting, like, six to one on their spend. That’s fantastic. We should be happy, right? And I’m like, no, no, no, I’ve pushed, I have pushed that envelope before. I’ve seen, you know, 14% conversion on landing pages. I’ve seen 49% conversion on landing pages. When you get it really right, you should always be pushing and pushing and pushing that envelope. So really diagnose and look, are there friction killers in those processes, and where can you be improved? And it is not like, I’m getting results good enough, so let me stop. It’s not stop because that might be one of your levers to really, really get quick wins, because you could tweak something and then even tip the scale further. And who doesn’t want a big win like that? The other thing is, like, I think there’s I look at I look at email sequences and messaging. I look at every single message that we’re sending a customer through the process, through their buying journey. You know, for one client, I basically call it a customer journey map, which a lot of people don’t do anymore, but my journey map is from the moment that they hear about you, all the way through buying, how do we touch them? What do we touch? And then from buying through that sales cycle, what is that like? And the reason why I map that out is because when you do and you put the different sections, you can kind of say, well, this is the process today. What would we like that process to be? And you will find in every single one of these customer journey maps that I’ve done, five to 10 areas where you’re like, instantly know, you instantly know the experience you could be providing better. I did this for one client, and we uncovered, like, the review process for their terms and conditions. On average took like, 10 days with an average back and forth between their lawyers and our lawyers, maybe 15 times that is that a desired customer experience? No, that’s a friction creator, which could be a deal killer, could be a deal staller. So what does that desired experience look like? What should we aim to get to? How are we going to do that? What should we test first? That’s just an example of one that might be in there. So look at everything. Then it becomes, you know, build exactly what you think you’re going to test, go and launch and measure those tests. And you don’t need this to be six months, right? Depending on how much data you’re getting through, it might only take you two weeks of data. It might take you a week of data on these experiments and levers that you’re going through so figure out how long you need to run the experiment for. Run that experiment, measure those changes, and then either permanently implement the change or make changes right and refresh and do another test. Christian Klepp  34:24 Wow, that was quite the list. And I’m sure you’ve, you’ve had, like, as you, as you’ve mentioned, you’ve had pushback for, you know, some of this, for this process, because it’s it. It makes teams uncomfortable, right? But I think the point is, you know, everybody says, right, change is uncomfortable. Improvement is uncomfortable. Uncovering ways to make things better should make you feel uncomfortable, right? Apryl Syed  34:53 So true, so true. And I always, I always think like, if you’re uncomfortable and you’re feeling like. A maybe, I don’t know all the answers here. It’s a really good place to be, and that’s where real growth happens. That’s where real change happens. Christian Klepp  35:06 Yeah. So I did have one follow up question for you, Apryl, like, you know, based on this framework that you’ve just proposed, like, How often would you recommend? And I know it depends, but how often would you recommend teams to continuously monitor some of these, some of these attributes and these factors that you’ve that you’ve brought up in the past couple of minutes. Apryl Syed  35:27 Gosh, I think it is very dependent on the data that’s coming through. If you were experiencing problem in an area, deep dive in there and uncover it. Kind of do that audit and analysis and create some tests that you could run to improve it. But as a measure, the customer journey map, for example, for existence, I think that’s a living, breathing document. I think we should look at it quarterly. We should update it with the experiments and the learnings and the new things that we’ve implemented permanently so that we can track how that experience is going and make sure that it’s our desired experience that we’re putting out there. Because I think a lot of times stuff just happens and it’s not our desired experience, but we kind of think like, oh, well, this is the process, the way it has to be, or, you know, so and so said that it has to be three days. So it’s three days, and it’s like giving you a moment to step back and be like, Why could we do it different? Could we do it better? Could we do it in two days? I don’t know. Could we do it in one and, you know, so I think as often as that customer journey, when updates happen, put those updates in their document. It, look at it, say, like, what’s next on the list should always be improving. When you get to the point where you don’t have any more insights in there, and you think it’s oiled up in the best that you could possibly do it, bring some customers in, bring some customers in to look at it and get their opinion. Ask them about it. It’s a great point to now be in survey mode and ask some questions about where you might have conflicts internally, or where you just aren’t sure where to go. So I think that when it comes to like email sequences, and remind you know like those provide provides, messaging, emails, one thing landing pages, like, I think your landing page just should be in a constant AB turnaround. Every time you have five to 10,000 people hitting a landing page, you should be trying to tweak that message to see if you can make it better. Message, layout, colors, all of the kind of industry standards there, you should be constantly trying to tweak that. If you’re not using landing pages and you’re sending stuff to a page, you should try landing pages so it’s just the constant improvement of those email sequences kind of, kind of, I feel, I feel they should be similar. I feel like you’ve got to examine those on a pretty regular basis, maybe it’s monthly, and kind of determine which messages are you going to trade out. I’m doing a pretty big switch out right now for, you know, an SMB app that’s, you know, selling to other businesses. So it’s a B2B, SaaS company, and we are revising all of their messaging, going through every single one, but trying to create, like a very purposeful journey now where there hasn’t been necessarily one before. And what I just said to one of the leaders yesterday is like, this is version one of what will be probably 10 before we’re done with this iteration. Because every single time we see the data and see how people are moving through the flow, we’re going to we’re going to see that those things that we didn’t consider, there’s going to be broken pieces. Like, don’t be in a position of thinking that any of your marketing is final ever. That’s a good position to be in. It’s never final. I think about this for websites as well. Like people like, oh, we go through our big website refresh, we get the website done, and then now we don’t have to touch the website. Oh, you should be, like, touching the website all the time. Experiment with the messaging on the homepage. Like to think that you got the messaging right the first time. I wish, I wish, and I’ve been in this industry for more than 25 years, I wish, and I’m considered, considering, considered a messaging, you know, wizard. Sometimes, it sometimes takes five or six tries before you get that like, nailed one, and that’s because persona, you know, it’s like how the person is feeling. It’s the emotional draw, and it’s the features, the problem of the pain and all of that coming into one like, I wish, I wish there was an AI tool that could get that right. But it’s not, they’re not. Christian Klepp  40:00 I haven’t found one yet. Apryl Syed  40:01 Yeah. You know, it’s only through really, really overworking that message and seeing the data come in that you kind of like, finally get to maybe a place that’s good, and then guess what? Your persona changes or something happens to so. So don’t ever think of it as, oh, to set it and forget it, it. It should be like it. And there’s also, like, Don’t tweak it too fast that you don’t have enough data coming through. Like, that’s also, I can, I can see that being a message, but have enough data, review that data on a regular basis, make some changes, test it. It’s like little incremental tests and learn. So that’s going to be kind of like it’s either in that category, which is like, test and learn, test and learn, test and learn constantly tweaking, or a quarterly or an annual kind of review. Christian Klepp  40:54 Fantastic, fantastic. Apryl. This was such a great conversation. Thank you so much for your time and for sharing your expertise and experience with the listeners. Um, please. Quick introduction to yourself and how folks out there can get in touch with you. Apryl Syed  41:07 Well, my company is Apeture Codex. Best way to get in touch with me is just Apryl Syed at LinkedIn. That’s where I’m most active, is on LinkedIn, and you can book an appointment with me right off of my LinkedIn. And so that’s like the best, best way to find me out there. Christian Klepp  41:27 Fantastic, fantastic. And we’ll be sure to drop those links in the show notes once the episode goes live. So Apryl, once again, thanks so much for your time. Take care, stay safe and talk to you soon. Apryl Syed  41:38 All right. Thank you so much, Christian. Christian Klepp  41:40 Okay, Bye, for now. Apryl Syed  41:41 Bye.

How AI Agents are Disrupting the AdTech Landscape Semantic content classification driven by AI agents is currently transforming digital advertising and B2B content monetization as we know it. When leveraged the right way, marketers can classify B2B content into actionable signals and find the most relevant content across the open web. This shift toward AI-native advertising allows for a more sophisticated approach to targeting that moves beyond traditional cookies. So, how can brands strategically implement these tools to generate impactful results, and what does the rise of autonomous agents mean for the future of your digital marketing strategy? That's why we're talking to Brendan Norman (Co-Founder and CEO, Classify), who shares his expertise and experience on how AI agents are disrupting the AdTech landscape. During our conversation, Brendan discussed the evolution of digital advertising and the critical integration of AI and cloud-based tools to automate manual tasks and improve campaign optimization. He also elaborated on the massive shift from human-centric to agent-centric traffic, predicting that agent traffic will surpass human traffic within 18-24 months. Brendan also explained why he believes that the future belongs to marketers who can blend audience and contextual signals to monetize human and agent attention. He highlighted how new AI-native tools are democratizing advanced ad tech, significantly reducing costs and improving efficiency for large and small advertisers. https://youtu.be/yVobWZTmwco Topics discussed in episode: [03:01] Beyond Keywords: How semantic understanding allows advertisers to target the nuance of a page (like “snow removal” vs. just “winter”) rather than broad categories.  [06:46] Optimizing for AI Agents: Why “Generative Engine Optimization” (GEO) complements traditional SEO, and how brands must prepare for agents retrieving information instead of humans.  [12:34] The Shift in Web Traffic: The prediction that agent traffic will surpass human traffic on the web in the next 6 to 24 months.  [15:50] The Power of Context + Audience: Why the best advertising strategy combines who the user is (audience) with what they are consuming in the moment (context).  [20:47] Democratizing Ad Tech: How AI agents and new frameworks will allow smaller brands with smaller budgets to access sophisticated programmatic advertising tools.  [26:54] High-Fidelity Curation at Scale: How AI reduces the cost of processing massive data sets, making real-time optimization and curation accessible and sustainable.  [33:44] The “Middleman Tax”: A look at the inefficiency of current ad tech where only 35 cents of every dollar reaches the publisher, and how AI can fix this.  Companies and links mentioned: Brendan Norman on LinkedIn  Classify  Bluefish AI Agentic Advertising Org  IAB Tech Lab Transcript Brendan Norman – Classify, Christian Klepp Brendan Norman – Classify  00:00 I think overall, jobs will change. I think that people will have to spend a lot less time doing a lot of the manual, rote tasks that they’re doing today. You know, kind of in parallel with what we’re seeing in terms of vibe coding and people’s ability to build product really quickly, design new web pages really quickly, like get ship things out quickly. I think a lot of the infrastructure layer tools, or just call them like, like, chatGPT style, cloud based tools, LLMs (Large Language Models), we’ll see a lot deeper integration into existing advertising product. And what that does is it helps democratize the whole ecosystem. So I think it frees up people’s time, you know, to not have to do a lot of the basic administrative, you know, reporting, manual, campaign, optimization type stuff, and it will help service a lot better insights. Ultimately, I think the industry grows, and I think it scales even faster and cautiously, optimistically. I think that we, we will have back to building on the curation piece, and, you know, the advertiser, outcomes piece, publisher monetization piece, user experience piece, I think that all those things will increase. Christian Klepp  01:07 When done the right way and leveraging the right approach and technology, you can classify B2B content into actionable insights and find the most similar content across the open web. So how can this be done the right way, and what role do B2B Marketers play? Welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers in the Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp. Today, I’ll be talking to Brendan Norman about this. He’s the Co-Founder and CEO of Classify, a software that organizes the world’s digital content, making a privacy, safe, searchable and monetizable. Tune in to find out more about what this B2B Marketers Mission is, and off we go. I’m gonna say Mr. Brendan Norman, welcome to the show. Brendan Norman – Classify  01:49 Thanks for having me, Christian. Christian Klepp  01:51 Great to have you on. I’m really looking for this conversation because, man, like you know, in our previous discussion, besides talking about snow and bad weather, we did have, we did have we did have some interesting discussions around, I’m going to say, AI machine learning, and how that all has some kind of like strong correlation to content. So let’s just dive in. I’m going to start with the first question here. So you’re on a mission to help publishers increase monetization potential and advertisers target the most relevant, curated inventory. So for this conversation, I’m going to focus on the following topic, and we can unpack it from there. So how B2B brands can optimize their own content. And you know, let’s be honest. Brendan, who the heck doesn’t want to do that, right? So your company classify, if I remember correctly. It’s a software that organizes the world’s digital content, making it privacy, safe, searchable and monetizable. So here’s the two-pronged question I’m happy to repeat. So first one is, walk us through how your software does that and B, how does this approach benefit? B2B companies looking to optimize their own content? Brendan Norman – Classify  03:01 Historically, how a lot of content gets categorized, classified, organized, it’s fairly unsophisticated, and it’s been fairly unsophisticated for a long time, just because, you know, the technology is difficult to do, and we haven’t really had the foundational ability to understand it in a way like a human understands it until fairly recently, and do it at Deep scale. So good analogy for this question is like, if you were having a we were having a conversation just a minute ago about the snow, you know, happening in Canada, and how cold it was and how much snow you got, and, you know, also around the fact that, like you had to shovel your driveway, you have a snow blower you were putting the snow. There’s a lot of different nuance to that conversation. I as a human, and most humans, are able to interpret all of that nuance and kind of positively negatively, understand that there’s a snow blower involved in that snow blower was used to remove the snow historically that conversation, you know, if it was just a blob of text, or if it were a web page, the the basic technology to understand it would have reduced it down to a category like snow or maybe winter, and that’s it, and that’s all the targeting that would have happened to that page. So our conversation, you know, gets transcribed. It gets put on a blog, or it gets put on a news site. The only thing that a machine could understand about it was, you know, snow and then potentially a keyword, tagged snow blower. And that’s all so we took a very different one. One of the reasons why you know that that makes it challenging for advertisers and also for publishers. If you’re the publisher of that content, you’re not able to help advertisers really understand the nuance to like, what are we talking about here? Because maybe an advertiser wants to sell snow blowers for that specific site. Maybe they’re looking to sell ski and since we were talking about removing snow from a driveway, probably not the best application to go sell skis on. What is helpful is to deeply understand all the nuance to like we were talking about a driveway. We were talking about removing snow from that driveway. So we invented, you know, a much better, more sophisticated way to scrape content, classify it according to all of the different, you know, nuances semantic understanding much more like a human would, and then embed all of those different, you know, semantic understandings into, you know, this, this, this file, and then we organize that in a way that makes it searchable and kind of understands all the relationships very quickly. And what that does is it helps advertisers, like if you know, I’m Honda selling snow blowers, which they make, arguably the best snow blower in the market, if they’re looking to reach people that are talking about snow removal from the driveway, they can very quickly see the list of all the different URLs across the internet, and they can build, you know, a deal ID, or they can build a targeting, contextual targeting segment to specifically pinpoint those very specific web pages. And that’s kind of how the technology works, and then also, also why it’s relevant to advertisers. Christian Klepp  06:21 Thanks so much for sharing that Brendan that definitely helps us give, you know, some perspective into, like, what your software does. And you know, just, I’m asking you this from, from somebody who probably has learned to write one or two lines of code, and that’s as far as my dev skills go. But like, how, how is your software different from like GEO (Generative Engine Optimization), or is there some kind of overlap? Brendan Norman – Classify  06:46 It’s fairly complementary. I mean, the problem that GEO, you know, is trying to solve, and we’ve got good friends, advisors, you know, like at Blue Fish AI and like, a really cool company, Andre, I worked with him at live rail. He was the co-founder back then, before we got acquired by Facebook, you know. And I think that the problem that they’re trying to solve is going back to that it was just stay on Honda snowblowers. They’re trying to help Honda understand how they’re represented inside of, inside of an LLM or inside of a chat bot. And what they also do is they help these companies restructure their pages for, you know, better representation inside of the other end of like a chatGPT or a cloud answer. So it is kind of SEO (Search Engine Optimization), but for the generative world where we sit on is kind of on a different side of that. It’s very complimentary, though, and we’re deeply understanding content at scale, and that’s helping, you know, the advertiser understand where to position their ad. We’re also just, you know, very quickly, moving into this new space of, traditionally, advertising technology is focused on a human going to a web page, reading that content, reading the article, watching a video, you know, whatever that content looks like, and then helping the right advertisers show up in a contextually relevant way, so that the human will click on that ad, and they’ll go to another web page, they’ll buy the thing, whatever somebody wants to sell. A very recent development, so back up a year or so, you know, chatGPT Claude when they’re out and their agents and their bots are scraping like going out to the web and they’re retrieving information. They’re doing it to train their models to make their models better at answering questions. But now, you know, fast forward to today. They’re actually spending more time just going to content and then using that content to answer a specific question. So like, what’s the best recipe for, you know, creating soft shell craps. It’ll query a couple different web pages. It’ll find that, it’ll retrieve that information and bring it back that that is not being monetized today. And there’s a really interesting thing that we’re, you know, we’re starting to work on, which is monetizing the attention of an agent. And, you know, it’s, there’s a lot to figure out, but it’s kind of like the early days of a web browser, and like early days of search, when humans would go, you know, to a search engine, they would pop in some keywords, or, like, right out of search, and then, you know, Google would look at their entire index of the web, which was an algorithm that was weighted based on the number of different contextual relevancy plus the number of connections between web pages. So a web page that I might have published in geocities.com that nobody else would link to, Christian Klepp  09:50 wow, GeoCities like… Brendan Norman – Classify  09:54 Throwing way back remember the days of like writing like HTML and you know, creating that, you know, looping in some type of image because nobody else had linked to that, like personalized page that you built, it would never get shown up. And, you know, the top 20 or 30 or probably even couple 1000, or maybe even 100,000 search results. So their algorithm was about contextual relevancy, plus the number of links that other pages that had to your page. And then they started to include advertising in that. So early days of ads in search were literally anything, you know, it’s any advertiser that wanted to advertise to you, and they were just kind of choosing the highest price, trying to figure out, you know, how do we make money? And then it evolved into much more contextually relevant ads and sponsored post or sponsored advertisements. So now you know, if you’re searching for, like, what’s the best, you know, LLM or chat bot, you’re probably going to see a sponsored ad from, you know, Claude and Perplexity and chatGPT. Now you’re also going to see the search results underneath those. What’s changing about that kind of rapidly is how we’re influencing because humans are spending less time going there and doing that, and also within Google, Gemini is also surfacing some AI summary quickly and kind of superseding that, creating a chatGPT experience inside of Google, which is a brilliant way to do it also. But a lot of human interaction with the web now is humans going to chatGPT going to cloud asking questions and kind of treating it like we used to treat search back in the day. So influencing that, influencing that agent, going out to the web and sitting in between. That is another really interesting way that you can help an advertiser tell that story, not necessarily to a human but to the agent who’s retrieving the information and then bringing it back to the human, Christian Klepp  11:56 Right, right, right? And if we’re talking about content, it’s, you know, doing it in such a way that the content shows up in the AI search. Brendan Norman – Classify  12:04 Exactly. Christian Klepp  12:05 Because everybody, everybody’s got those now, right, like Google or Bing, or whatever, they’ve got the, they’ve got the AI summary at the at the very top of the page, right when you, when you, when you key in something. Brendan Norman – Classify  12:17 Yeah. Christian Klepp  12:18 Okay, fantastic. I’m gonna move us on to the next question about because we’re on the topic of optimizing content. So what are some of the key pitfalls that like B2B Marketers and their content teams? What should they be mindful of, and what should they be doing instead? Brendan Norman – Classify  12:34 That would be actually a better question for some of the GEO companies and something like more SEO focused companies about how to specifically optimize like your content. It’s a great question. I haven’t spent as much time, you know, deeply thinking through that. And the problem that we’re trying to solve is more of, you know, at scale, what is the semantic understanding of like, how somebody has built their page and or construct the video, as opposed to advising them on what they should do? You know, to think about it in a way that’s either more engaging. I would pivot that question more to the Geo and SEO focused folks, yeah, but super high level. I mean realizing that now web has two primary users of traffic. There’s humans who are bouncing or reading a, you know, web page or watching a video. But there’s also agents. And now the scale is like, changing very, very quickly. So you know, in the next year, two years, everybody will have lots of agents, kind of doing things on the back end for them. And, you know, we believe that, you know, in the next what, 6,12,18,24 months, Agent traffic will surpass human traffic on the web. So realizing that there’s these kind of two layers that one, humans see a web page and nice pretty pictures, and, you know, they see the layout great, but also having a web page that’s optimized in HTML, markdown, JSON, in ways that agents consume that, and then also knowing the different types of agents. So the cool thing that we’re building right now, in addition to this content graph of all the content, which is effectively like a understanding all the context between the content. It’s a mouthful, an agent graph that helps to inform this is an agent coming to my site. So in a lot of ways, it’s very similar to the folks who over the last decade or so, have built these identity graphs or audience graphs, and they know that like you, Christian versus me, Brendan, they’ve got some profiling on us. They understand our search history, our retargeting, our purchase intent, a lot of things that they’re appending to like you as a specific profile or an IP address. The rapid evolution of all this is mapping out the land. Landscape of different agents, where they come from, and then the personalization of these agents, and basically applying a lot of the similar logic that we’ve used for identity graphs and for audience graphs towards agents to help understand, how do you modify the content on the back end that humans never see, so that when they’re retrieving information, interacting with the content they’re doing it, you’re presenting in a really thoughtful way that drives like the answers and the results that you want to Christian Klepp  15:33 right, right? No, absolutely, absolutely. And in our previous conversation, you talked a little bit about contextual versus audience targeting. So and I mean, I’ve asked you this back then, but do you think one is better than the other, or do you think that they can work together? Brendan Norman – Classify  15:50 They should absolutely work together. Christian Klepp  15:52 And why? Brendan Norman – Classify  15:54 The reason, the reason is, you know, knowing who you are is a very important piece to the puzzle. Like, and if you even take a step back, like, what’s the whole point of advertising? Like, the whole point of advertising is storytelling, so that a brand or a service or a company can help market their brand service to the right person they’re trying to sell them something. The cool thing about the internet is we all now have this, you know, basic shared awareness that, like, there are certain things that are paid for on the internet, certain types of content that are gated. I might buy a subscription to The Economist, you know, I pay Claude a certain amount of money, a lot to be able to use it, you know, a lot and chatGPT, and then a lot of the web is free. Facebook is free, Tiktok is free, Instagram is free, LinkedIn is free. But the economics, it’s very expensive to run these businesses, so they have to, you know, support it through advertising. Ideally, you know, there’s a couple of ways to think about it, and there’s one camp of people on the internet who think that advertising is a necessary evil or a last resort, you know, we just cram it in there and make some money. There’s another camper of folks who actually think that it can be additive to the experience. And one of the reasons why, you know, it’s kind of a meme, and you always hear people talking about, you know, I didn’t need this thing, but I saw an ad for it on Instagram, and just had to buy it because it was really cool. The reason why that exists is that their advertising is phenomenal, and the targeting and optimization is phenomenal. And why it’s phenomenal on the back end is it knows a lot about you know me, who I am, what I’m interested in, based on my history, what I’ve been engaging with, where I’m spending time, you know, what I’m looking at, but it also knows specifically when I’m looking at that thing, you know, it might have a framework of saying, Brendan, really, you know, likes these types of skis, you know, he’s interested in, You know, a couple other, couple other interesting products, but the best time to serve each one of those products might be different, and it’s different depending on what I’m looking at, what I’m thinking about in that exact moment. And to kind of align these, these different graphs, graphs of intent, contextual understanding, and then audience, you know, the best time to serve me an ad for a new pair of skis is when I’m reading an article about skiing or something about the mountains. You know, it’s not necessarily when I’m reading about the Warriors, because I’m not really thinking about skiing when I’m reading about basketball. So to your point, the most effective ads are when you’re combining those two sets. It’s great for the advertiser, because I’m much more likely to click on it and go check out the skis. It’s also giving me a better experience, because it feels more native to the overall content that I’m reading. And that’s why it’s so important. It shouldn’t be an afterthought or a necessary evil or a last resort. It should be something that is intentionally thought about the entire design, because it can, it can actually be a cool experience. Christian Klepp  19:06 Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, you know, you’re talking to somebody that started his career in the in the advertising industry, so, yeah, I’ve heard that one before, and what you’ve been describing in the past couple of minutes sounds to me a little bit like time of day marketing too, right? Because you’re you know, are you the had a guest on, like, a year ago who talked about this? Right? Is, is Brendan, the same guy at eight in the morning and one one in the afternoon and seven in the evening? Right? There’s different different times of the day, different mindset, different motivation, different reason for being on your device or looking at, looking at specific type of content, right? But it is interesting, right? And it’s interesting and sometimes a little bit scary, how, um, how quickly the algorithm picks, picks this stuff up, right? Like, for example, last year, I was researching a lot on Japan, because we went there, right? Family trip and whatnot. And. And that’s what I kept seeing on Instagram, right? Like, because I was looking up specific temples and whatnot and and today I got another push. Like, would you like to invest in a temple that’s an on island in the Sea of Japan, right? Brendan Norman – Classify  20:12 Like, sorry, did you invest? Christian Klepp  20:17 No, I did not. But it was just, it was just funny that I got that ad right, like, it’s, like, Okay, interesting, but like, it’s so like it not, was not on my radar at all, right, Brendan Norman – Classify  20:29 Yeah, Christian Klepp  20:29 Okay, great. From your experience, and you talked a little bit about it now in the past couple of minutes, but like, from your experience, how can leveraging AI agents improve efficiency and save marketing leaders time? Brendan Norman – Classify  20:47 Ooh, there’s a couple different ways to think about that. So you know, part of it is this new agentic framework for how existing tools, you know, advertising and marketing tools, will communicate with each other today. You know, it’s fairly complex. You know, if I wanted to go build a contextual targeting segment to help one of our brands that we work with find the right contextual or inventory to target contextually, I would have to work with them. We build a targeting segment. We would upload that into our one of our SSPs, we would build a deal ID, you know, they would connect it back. And there’s a lot of different pieces that happen along the way. And each one of those pieces you have to go to, you know, a UI, I’ve got to go to a dashboard, I’ve got to push that thing in. Some of it happens through an API, but a lot of it happens like going to a whole bunch of different web pages to make sure this stuff all works. So stuff all works. What’s cool about agents? And I’ll unpack this, and then I’ll go to the more of the consumer focus side too. But what’s really cool about agents using, you know, things like the ACP framework from the Agentic Advertising Org., the ARTF (Agentic Real Time Framework) from IAB Tech Lab is they’re kind of built on some of the existing frameworks that allow humans to use natural language to communicate between these different systems. So there’s still the back end pipes of API pushing data or pulling data from one system to another. But on top of that is more of an agentic framework that allows, you know, a human just to use some prompting, like in chatGPT, to make a request, you know, that talks to a back end system. So that’s one part of the agentic framework for like, you know, how to think about this through the lens of advertising and marketing. And then the other side is, you know, more of the consumer focused. There are so many interesting and very quickly growing tools you know, that you can start to plug in, into Cloud, into Cloud code, and to building things that just rapidly accelerate development of different products and your ability to analyze data quickly. I think in the next, you know, 6 to 12 months, we’re going to have a totally different landscape for how people are buying like trading media also, you know, one more final thought about all of this is that a lot of the sophisticated tooling and pipes that we have are only accessible towards the largest advertisers today. And I think that you’ll pretty quickly see a democratization of the ability for anybody to just buy programmatic ads, whether you’ve got a $20 a month budget or a $20 million a month budget. Now, the ability to similar types of tools to access the right content across the web will start to be available towards a lot more folks outside of the existing, you know, kind of ad tech ecosystem. Christian Klepp  23:55 And I might be stating the obvious when I say this here, but that’s a good thing, isn’t it, because, I mean, I, again, I came out of this industry, and I know that, like, you know, if you wanted to advertise in the New York Times, for example, right? Like, how expensive that would be, or, or anything that was print, right? And then they migrated all that to digital, and then it still wasn’t, it still wasn’t affordable. It was, it was cheaper than print, but still not like, exactly like, you know, yeah, I wonder, wonder if they’ll be worth the investment or not. And then now you have this, this push towards the democratization of all of this through AI and machine learning and, and I do think that you know, for all the the scare mongering that you know people are doing now with, with, oh, you know, all this stuff around AI, I do think that that part certainly will be advantageous to to B2B companies and to marketing in general. Brendan Norman – Classify  24:49 Great. I mean, yeah, optimistically, I think I’m excited about the entire landscape changing because it does a couple things. It allows for much more contextually relevant ads. I know right now there’s only, let’s call it to the magnitude of like, 1000s, 10s of 1000s, maybe hundreds of 1000s, of campaigns and or brands that are able to use these pipes to reach the largest publishers. And all of a sudden you expand that out. You know, I think between meta and Google, they each have somewhere between 15 to 20 million unique advertisers on their platforms, and what that means is, you get really hyper specific ads. And it also means that, like, I might get a local ad for my hometown here for some restaurant that’s launching a promotion that I might only get here, and I might only get to your point, maybe not in the morning, but I’ll get in the evening. There’s a lot of different data sets around my identity, you know, the psychographic profile, contextual understanding of what I’m reading at that exact moment. And what it does a lot of things. It helps smaller brands get more traction, get more visibility. It also just helps improve the publisher experience, and like publishers, make more money. And then the user who’s consuming that content, reading the web page, watching a video, also has just a better experience. And then the other layer of that will continue to just go on, this narrative of agentic, tension, but the agents who are reading that content, watching that video for an end user. On the other side, are also able to interact with advertising content that’s very contextually relevant to the content that they’re consuming again, and it’s good for the storytelling of the advertiser and good for monetization of that publisher too. Christian Klepp  26:38 Absolutely, absolutely. Okay. So how can high fidelity curation? This is the next question, right? How can high fidelity curation make B2B companies more sustainable? And if you can just provide an example, Brendan Norman – Classify  26:54 Curations like, it’s such an interesting term, but you know, effectively, it’s just, it’s helping to use the word and the definition, the definition in the word, curate the right inventory to run an ad campaign on, and curate the right inventory and audiences. So it’s a really important part of the business. I think it involves a couple things. It involves front end targeting, of knowing who’s the back to that question, who’s the audience, and then what’s the right content, and then it also involves a lot of ongoing optimization. And I’ll say that there are some some interesting companies that that are really good at curation, who are building out the right automatic tools to think about more real time optimization, and it’s something that the really big social media companies do very well, like they’re constantly looking at lots and lots of signals when they’re running a campaign, and they’re looking at inventory and stitching together based on the signals that they’re acquiring around. Why certain campaigns do well, to your point, you know, when we’re testing that, selling that pair of skis to Christian, we’re testing a lot of things. We’re testing what he’s reading, you know, we’re testing maybe time of day. We’re testing, you know, where he is. There’s a lot of different elements on the back end that they will ingest and understand and then refeed into that targeting and optimization algorithm. And I think that that is one of the cool things that AI to use, like the air quotes, AI will help enable the processing of a lot of this data to just be a lot faster, be a lot more cost effective, and a lot of these systems that you know previously have been not accessible to the ad tech ecosystem, just because we we operate at such a crazy scale of 10s, hundreds of billions of requests and impressions and transactions that happen every single day. It’s very cost expensive if you’re processing all of that data and all these different signals, with the advancement of how the model cost is getting a lot less expensive, very quickly, not just from an LLM perspective, but then the foundational layers and the infrastructure layers, like we’re doing contextual intelligence as an infrastructure layer. There are inference layers that all kind of sit underneath the LLM and help inform an LLM understanding of that content. As those costs start to decrease, you’ll start to see a lot better performance from curation, just because, you know, it’s not as cost prohibitive, and we’ll be able to find that balance in terms of economics. Christian Klepp  29:45 Yeah, yeah, you hit the nail on the head there. Because, you know, I was just writing this down. You said faster, more cost effective and in my head, and you said it, it’s like, and at scale, like, you can scale this stuff faster, like, when I when I think back, like, years ago, when we, when we launched an ad campaign, and, you know, just the amount of effort, like, for the print and then the cost into, you know, the media placements and all of that and and just alone for like, one city, just just the amount of investment that was involved in all of that, right? Just think, thinking about that. It’s like, gosh, and then now you can scale all of that, like, even faster, because it’s because it’s digital, right? So it’s just such an incredible evolution. Like, I’m getting just as excited as you are man, I’m like, for this next question. Brendan, I’m not sure if you’re the type that likes to do this, but I need you to look into the crystal ball for a second here, right? Because we’re looking at, like, stuff that is, you know, the events that are yet to come, if I’m gonna that, make it sound a little bit suspenseful, but, um, the future of digital advertising, like, how do you think that could become less fragmented and more optimized with everything that we’ve talked about in this conversation. Brendan Norman – Classify  31:04 Yeah, I caution against, like, having any, any specific predictions, and more of, like, a framework for, I mean, for me, at least, yeah, more of a framework for how I think overall, jobs will change. I think that people will have to spend a lot less time doing a lot of the manual, rote tasks that they’re doing today. And, you know, kind of in parallel with what we’re seeing in terms of vibe coding and people’s ability to build product really quickly, design new web pages really quickly. Like, get ship things out quickly. I think a lot of the the infrastructure layer tools, or just call them like, you know, the like, chatGPT style, cloud-based tools, LLMs, we’ll see a lot deeper integration into existing advertising product. And what that does is it helps democratize the whole ecosystem. So I think it frees up people’s time to not have to do a lot of the basic administrative, reporting, manual, campaign, optimization type stuff, and it will help service a lot better insights. Ultimately, I think the industry grows, and I think it scales even faster. And, you know, cautiously, optimistically, I think that we, we will have back to building on the curation piece, and, you know, the advertiser, outcomes piece, publisher, monetization piece, user experience piece, I think that all those things will increase, and I I’m hopeful that with the integration of just better technology, embedding AI into a lot of these systems, it’s going to help steer us towards having better experiences across any type of Publisher content. I think that the advertisers will see better outcomes. I think that the people that are in this industry will get to think more creatively about how they’re, you know, building better creative storytelling, better reaching the right people with those stories. And my hope is that it just continues to expedite and grow the overall industry. Brendan Norman – Classify  33:17 That will be my hope as well. All right, get up on your soapbox here for a little bit. What is a status quo in your area of expertise? So anything that we’ve talked about now in this conversation, what’s the status quo that you passionately disagree with and why? Oh, you must have a ton. Brendan Norman – Classify  33:44 I definitely do. I mean, you know, Christian Klepp  33:48 just name one, just one, Brendan Norman – Classify  33:50 Like in any industry, you know, there’s always, there’s always the early adopters, you know, there’s always the kind of like the middle stack, you know, there’s always, like, the laggards. There’s definitely, you know, a smaller, but growing quickly, minority of folks who are really leaning into, you know, I’ll just call it AI, and then the agentic web, and there’s a lot of discussion right now in ad tech around like, what that means? I’m still hearing that. There’s a lot of skeptics who are kind of making fun of it, or, you know, trash talking about different protocols. Fine, like those are the folks that are absolutely going to get left behind. And I think a lot of those folks on the soapbox in the next 6 to 12 months will look back at, you know what they said, and we’ll all kind of say that didn’t age well, and you were not building this stuff. You weren’t fingers on keyboard or hands on keyboard. Vibe marketing, vibe targeting, building stuff like shipping new product and testing and iterating. What I what I don’t think, is that the really big platforms are just able to be super nimble and adapt to a lot of these new frameworks quickly, totally like the pipes will continue to stay there. I think that there will be startups that are more nimble, that can build and ship things, you know, proof of concepts, prototypes, get things out, learn from them, fail, iterate, and then start to scale meaningful businesses without having to rely on a lot of the existing infrastructure that exists today. Do I think the trade desk is, you know, going anywhere? No, do I think that they will, like, continue to be a valuable piece in this ecosystem, absolutely. And I think that they will ship things. I think that they’ll enable the industry like to build on top of of the pipes that they’ve already built. And at the same time, I think a lot of that rapid advancement will come from startups who are kind of proving that, like they don’t necessarily need the existing pipes and channels to be able to at the end of the day, you know, this whole ecosystem is about helping an advertiser surface their ad against the right content for a human or for an agent. And there have been a lot of folks kind of sitting in the middle for that space for a long time. One of my favorite stats, soapboxy stats, is that if an advertiser puts $1 in to the open web with a programmatic web, 35 cents comes out to a publisher, so 65 cents is being taken by some combination of middlemen, you know, who are collecting a margin for, you know, different services, also some version of fraud. There’s a lot of things that happen in between that and what I’m again, cautiously optimistic about, you know, like the big picture, AI, of facilitating, is the ability to reduce that margin so that, you know, advertiser puts $1 in. A lot more of that dollar comes out towards the publisher, I think big social media, you know, it’s around 70 cents comes out. So they take, you know, somewhere between 25 to 30 cents, which is kind of the value exchange of providing the services, all the targeting, all the technology that goes into supporting that, you know, as a more fair exchange. So I think what a lot of the folks on more of the startup on more of like the front end of the frontier tech in the space we’re excited about is getting to reduce a lot of that inefficiency and a lot of that margin in the middle, and helping more of that dollar show up towards the publisher where it should. Christian Klepp  37:34 Boom and there you have it. Man Brendan, this has been awesome conversation, so thanks again for your time, please. Quick intro to yourself and how folks out there can get in touch with you. Brendan Norman – Classify  37:45 Yeah. Brendan Norman, CEO co-founder at Classify, please. You know, hit me up on LinkedIn or shoot me an email. Check out our website, which is, you know, www.tryclassify.com. I’m happy to connect. You know, if you have questions about advertising from a publisher side, from an advertiser side. Love to chat about it. Christian Klepp  38:06 Sounds good. Sounds good once again. Brendan, thanks for your time. Take care, stay safe and talk to you soon. Brendan Norman – Classify  38:13 Cool. Thanks, Christian. Christian Klepp  38:14 All right. Bye for now.

How to Scale Faster with B2B Brand Strategy Here's a common scenario in B2B marketing: you launch campaigns, hit the deadlines, and fill the pipeline, but the results feel disconnected from your long-term goals. Internal messaging discussions resurface, campaigns feel shallow and reactive, and when you ask people what your brand stands for, you get 50 different answers. This inconsistent approach creates friction and impedes scalable growth. So what can B2B marketers do when their tactical execution is outpacing their brand strategy, and how to do you realign for lasting impact? That's why we're talking to JoAnne Gritter (COO, ddm marketing + communications), who shares her expertise and actionable insights on how to scale faster with B2B brand strategy. During our conversation, JoAnne underscored why a foundational strategy is crucial for building credibility and trust in competitive markets. She also discussed the role of AI in marketing, commenting that while it can support with idea generation and research, it shouldn't replace direct communication with customers and employees. JoAnne shared some common pitfalls such as messaging misalignment and inconsistent branding, which can lead to distrust and reduced credibility, She explained the importance of having a cohesive brand strategy that aligns values, messaging, and customer experiences across all company touchpoints through proactive brand management. https://youtu.be/_Alwkinhw-g Topics discussed in episode: [02:36] The “Soul vs. Body” framework: Why marketing is just the body in action, while brand strategy is the soul that provides direction and values.  [06:51] Red flags that your marketing has outpaced your strategy: When content feels fragmented and sales teams are telling completely different stories.  [08:52] Defining true brand strategy: Moving beyond logos and colors to include deep research, stakeholder analysis, and internal alignment.  [14:41] The critical differences between a brand refresh (auditing existing assets), a complete revamp (starting from scratch), and branding during a merger.  [24:10] Actionable steps you can take to realign your brand: – Audit your customer journey – Define messaging pillars – Ensure HR and onboarding match the brand promise  [29:37] Why “data-only” marketing fails: The importance of human emotion and psychology that performance data often misses.  Companies and links mentioned: JoAnne Gritter on LinkedIn  ddm marketing + communications  Transcript JoAnne Gritter, Christian Klepp JoAnne Gritter  00:00 AI can be used as a tool. It should not replace thinking and actually talking to your customers and your employees and your sales team. So you can use AI as a crutch to to like, ask it for ideas, idea generation. You can use it for deep research on your on your audience, and stuff like that. But nothing replaces the gold standard of talking to people. I see this in messaging misalignment or content misalignment. If content feels like it’s been written by four different people or completely different companies, that’s a red flag. Christian Klepp  00:37 This is a common scenario for B2B Marketers. You launch campaigns, hit the deadlines and fill the pipeline. It all looks great on paper, but something is still off internal messaging discussions resurface. Campaigns feel shallow and reactive, and when you ask people what the brand stands for, you get 50 different answers. So what can B2B Marketers do when their marketing is outpacing their brand strategy? Welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers in the Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp, today, I’ll be talking to JoAnne Gritter, who will be answering this question. She’s a member of the leadership team at DDM Marketing Communications that provides integrated marketing solutions to drive business success. Tune in to find out more about what this B2B Marketers Mission is and here we go. JoAnne Gritter, welcome to the show. JoAnne Gritter  01:25 Hi Christian. Happy to be here. Christian Klepp  01:27 We you know, we had such a wonderful, like, pre-interview conversation. I almost feel like we’re neighbors or something, and something to that extent. But I’m, I’m really, like, happy to have you on the show, and I’m really looking forward to this conversation, because this topic is, I’m a little bit biased because I am in the branding space, so it’s a bit near and dear to my heart, but it’s also something that’s extremely important, because you’ll agree. I mean, you, I know you’ll agree because you wrote an article about it. JoAnne Gritter  01:54 Yeah Christian Klepp  01:55 It’s something that marketing teams tend to overlook. And good, goodness gracious me, I’m gonna, like, stop keeping people in suspense. We’ll just jump right in all right. JoAnne Gritter  02:04 Okay Christian Klepp  02:04 So JoAnne, you’re on a mission to provide integrated marketing solutions that drive B2B business success. So for this conversation, let’s focus on this topic, how brand strategy helps B2B organizations to realign for long term growth. So I’m going to kick off this conversation with the following question. In our previous conversation, our previous discussion, you talked about how marketing without a brand is a strategy without a soul. Could you please explain what you meant by that? JoAnne Gritter  02:36 So I just made the comparison kind of to the whole human, as in, like the brand is your soul, meaning like your values, what drives you, why you’re here, what differentiates you, what makes you different than the person standing next to you, whereas, like marketing is your body in action, or action in general, where you hopefully, if you if you’re a trustworthy person, what is, what are your values internally are matching your actions externally? And that is often where we see a divergent in companies, because they don’t think about those as like two sides of the same coin. It is really important that you make sure that you know the direction that you’re going as a company and what you stand for and who you’re there to support or serve, and what markets you’re there to do, and like your whole company, everybody that’s part of interfacing with customers understands that and is and is speaking the same language. Christian Klepp  03:37 Yeah, no, absolutely. And I suppose the the follow up question to that is like, where do you see a lot of, like, marketing teams go wrong. Because, like, you know, more often than not, a lot of teams are like, Okay, we’ve we’ve implemented the campaigns check. We’re generating results and driving pipeline or filling the pipeline, rather check. So where does it all go wrong? JoAnne Gritter  04:00 If you are not paying attention to your branding, you can have a lot of activity without a lot of traction. So or you can have a lot of different messages going out that seem not cohesive or fragmented. And so you can or more examples you can have, like your sales folks going out and telling different stories about about what your company stands for and what you do and how you’re different, that creates a lot of waste, because then you’re continuously trying to get more activity and more campaigns going more sales people out there, because you’re not getting the quality leads that you need, because nobody really knows what you stand for. Everybody says it a little bit differently, and that goes for customer service too. Branding. People think about branding as a marketing problem, or a marketing, you know, teams problem. But if, let’s say part of your brand is your brand identity or values is to put the customer. First, if you don’t really solidify that from your sales team and your customer support team, then there would be a mismatch there, right then you’re just putting out into the world that customers first, but that doesn’t match up with what the customer is experiencing. Christian Klepp  05:16 Yeah, there’s certainly some kind of misalignment there, and you touched on it, like, briefly. It’s interesting to me, like, even in my own experience, one of the telltale signs of that is when you ask people within the organization, well, what makes you different? And you get 50 different answers, and some of them are similar, and some of them are completely, like, different. And it’s like, okay, yep, okay, I see where this is going, or to your to your other point, when sales teams are having those discovery calls, and you listen back to some of those recordings, which I hope you marketing people out there are doing, and you listen to the way that the sales deal with objections, and maybe the procurement team or people like, you know, on the prospect side, they’re probably not phrasing it exactly the way I’m going to say it right now, but like, but they probably are asking something to the effect of, okay, what makes you different from vendor B, C and D, right? What is different about your solution? Like, why are you charging this guy? Why are your rates like, this high. JoAnne Gritter  05:16 Right. Absolutely. And if they have different answers, or if you go and you listen in on four different sales calls and they’re all a little bit different, then that tells you have a branding issue that people don’t fully understand your brand and how you’re different and who you support and serve. Christian Klepp  05:16 Yep, absolutely, absolutely. So you’ve touched on it a little bit, but like, tell us about some more of these. I’m going to call them red flags, right? That signal when marketing has outrun brand strategy. JoAnne Gritter  05:16 Sure, I see this in messaging misalignment or content misalignment. If content feels like it’s been written by four different people or completely different companies, that’s a red flag. If, like we mentioned, your sales team talks about your company completely differently, it’s okay that they put their own little spin on it, as long as you’re still hitting like the purpose of your company, why you’re here, how you serve whatever your target audience or audiences are what your values are. If that’s not coming through in in those different places, then you may have a brand issue, or your training issue, or your brand is not being carried out through the company. So when you have a solid brand, it should be, should be repeated in in like your onboarding process, in HR kind of things, in performance conversations, in obviously, your sales and marketing and your customer service, so that everybody is aligned to that brand, and so that there’s a common message, common theme, because repeatability is is super important. Consistency is super important in marketing. I’m sure a lot of people have heard that it takes multiple multi multiple times of hearing the same message for it to actually resonate, and if they’re hearing multiple different messages, it’s causes confusion and a lack of trust in whatever the company is offering. Christian Klepp  05:16 Yeah, that’s absolutely right. JoAnne, I’ve got a I just thought of another fall off question, and you’ll indulge me here. Um, you know it, I know it. But let’s, let’s clear the air here for a second. Because I’ve been hearing this like, and I’m sure you have as well, in the B2B world, it’s just been thrown around, like, very loosely. Let’s clear the air here. Like, what do you mean by brand strategy, because I’ve heard people, especially at senior level, say, like, Yeah, we don’t need branding. We’ve got a logo and we’ve got a website. We’re good, so maybe just clear the air on that one, please. JoAnne Gritter  05:16 Well, brand strategy is, let’s see, like, I think of strategy in like, four or three different tiers. Like, we have your business strategy, it’s how you win in the marketplace. Then you have your brand strategy, which is positions you in the market and in the minds of your consumers or your customers. And then your marketing strategy is how you take that and communicate it out and you deliver that message in multiple different channels. So if you have marketing running without, without laddering up to that business strategy and and brand strategy, then it’s just, it’s just running and putting stuff out there. So it’s just activity without, without purpose and strategy. So like a brand strategy is so much more than just a lot of people think about it as their logo, their identity suite, whatever, but there should be research that goes into it. They should be stakeholder analysis. They should talk to your customers and kind of understand what they value about about your company compared to another company. So then, using. Their language in some of your brand messaging is super helpful. So if you have like, customers that say, you know, like, I just love working with, you know, Company X, Y and Z, because the people are great. They’re super responsive. They they get me what I need, etc. Like, using some of that as part of your brand is going to be really important. So like, a strategy may may include, like, the focus, the brand, promise your your core values can be part of that. The naming can be part of that. Obviously, the the design part that a lot of folks actually think about and listen or think about and recall would be, like the visual identity that also needs to be consistent, from your logo to your fonts to your colors, and then like, multiple touch points on that, like, again, like repeating that consistency from like the stationary, the collateral, the assets, all that stuff, but then also making sure that the messaging and the voice carries throughout your company, past past your your marketing team, past your sales team. Christian Klepp  05:16 Yeah, that’s absolutely right. I mean, I like to tell people that all of these things that you mentioned, especially the visual aspect, the the sexy part of it, right, like the the visual identity, the logo, the web design and all that. It’s the end result. It’s one of the outcomes of right branding, right? JoAnne Gritter  05:16 That doesn’t come out of a vacuum, right? You don’t show a designer that’s like, I’m super excited about the color red, so we’re gonna do it’s what do our customers, current customers, feel about us, and what do we want our prospective customers to feel about us? And then there’s a lot of strategy behind that. Christian Klepp  05:16 That’s right, that’s right. I’m gonna move on to the topic of key pitfalls to avoid. So what are some of these key pitfalls that B2B Marketing Teams should avoid, and what should they do instead? JoAnne Gritter  05:16 So pitfalls that I see is companies teams that get really excited about certain trends. I’m just going to pick on Tiktok. There’s time and a place for Tiktok, but like, for B2B, they’re like, oh, man, everybody’s on Tiktok, or this latest, you know, social media platform, channel, we really got to get on there. It’s or we got to use AI in some specific way without, like, thinking about the strategy behind that and just like going forward, because you know that that’s the hottest trend right now. So always make sure it ladders up to where your customers are and what you want them to think about you. If you’re a B2B company, it’s likely that your customers are more on LinkedIn than they are on Tiktok. That’s just an example. I can’t say that across the board, but like picking picking things that are always centered on on your customer and your brand are super important. So that’s a pitfall, and then what to do about it? Also treating the brand as a one time exercise, like set it and forget it, kind of thing. A lot of people are just like, Okay, we did the brand. We got a great logo, we got stationery, we even got PowerPoints that are branded and then never think about it again, except for, like, just the, you know, the colors and the logo on all of your media assets, right? So, but the brand is so much more than that. The brand is so much about, like, how you want them to feel, what the differentiators are, what makes you different, what you deliver and like, how you talk about it, how you position yourself. So like, every bit, every asset that goes out the door, should be aligned to that there should be almost a hierarchy. Christian Klepp  05:16 Yeah, no, exactly, exactly. And I’m gonna throw another follow up question at you, only because I know you can handle you can handle it. You probably hear this a lot, and you hear this a lot, most likely also from marketing teams that perhaps don’t have as much experience in the branding space as you do, and they say things like, JoAnne, you know, we’re looking at our company, and we feel that, you know, the overall look and feel and the direction, it’s not really in line with what we aspire to be. So we’re looking for a revamp. And then, and then, as the conversation progresses, they say, Oh, actually, we want maybe, maybe just a refresh, right? And then you hear another prospect say, Well, you know, we just merged the two companies. So like, what do we do there? So maybe just, just to, again, clear the air, so people don’t throw around these terms so recklessly, what actually is the difference between a brand refresh, a brand revamp, and branding as a result of a merger, Speaker 1  06:02 like a brand like from scratch, is going to take a lot of different kind of research efforts than like a brand refresh. Like, if you’re doing a brand refresh, then you’re looking at assets that already exist, you know, and and you’re looking at reasons why they might change or are no longer working. So you’re doing more. Of an audit kind of thing, like, what’s different now than it was 20 years ago when we created this brand, and where are we going? Their new leadership? Are they focused on different parts of this like even even DDM, the marketing agency that I work with or that I work for. We, every once in a while, look at our brand, and not just the visuals, but like the things that make us unique. And we say, hey, those are still unique, but we’re talking about them slightly differently now. So we need to take a look at that and change the messaging a little bit. We’re heading in a slightly different direction lately with our creative so let’s, let’s make sure that we’re still in line, so that everything, everything matches. And if they see us on Instagram versus if they see us on LinkedIn or on our website, that it still looks like ABM, you know, and then a merger is slightly different, because you’re putting together two brands, and a lot of times they’re creating a new brand from that, or they might keep one of the brands and then just bring another like, you know, Company X is now a, you know, Company Y brand. And there might be, like a sub. There’s all kinds of different ways hierarchies of brands in that kind of scenario. But more recent one that we did, they created a new brand, which was a combination of the two names, and they completely they went through the whole exercise with the new leadership team. So it’s more similar to like starting from scratch, but also taking bits and pieces that they want to keep from both brands and what’s working. So you kind of look at what clients from both brands like about those brands, and make sure that you keep those and you preserve those, and make sure that it’s it’s heading in the direction that the company wants to go a lot of discovery and research and questions, Christian Klepp  06:16 Absolutely, absolutely. And I love that you keep bringing that up, though, because that is, again, one of these components that people tend to overlook, that this comes with a lot of research. It’s not, as you said, it’s not okay. Here’s the brief. Graphic designers or design team have at it. JoAnne Gritter  17:07 Right? Christian Klepp  17:07 Come up with something, something else, great, right? Yeah, my favorite briefs are always the ones that said we want something modern, clean, yet traditional and exciting. It’s like, JoAnne Gritter  17:17 Oh yes, creative. Make it creative, splashy mean to you? Christian Klepp  17:25 Yeah, yeah, open to interpretation, I suppose. Why do you believe that inconsistent messaging and internal misalignment cost organizations credibility and dollars? And you did touch on it earlier on the conversation. JoAnne Gritter  17:41 It’s a misalignment of what you say versus what you do. If you have on your website that you are there to serve X population and that you are like your mission and purpose in in this world is to support that population in in achieving whatever goal, whatever needs that that population needs, but then that customer or population that comes and interacts with your brand does not get that from the people or get that from their experience with your product. Then then that’s a misalignment, and that creates, you know, instant distrust, like you are not following through on, on what your brand promise was, or if you have multiple people saying they’re promising different things and they don’t get that, that’s a lack of trust. Christian Klepp  18:27 I’m kind of slightly grinning here, although I know that anyone who’s been in this situation probably will not see any humor in it, but like, I’m just thinking about anyone that’s experienced a flight delay, JoAnne Gritter  18:37 right, Christian Klepp  18:39 or been trapped at the airport, and whichever airline it is you’re flying with, and you have to deal with ground staff that are either unprofessional and rude or you just have zero transparency. And I’m sure, like, I’ve certainly gone through it like I’ve experienced a 10, 12 hour flight delay, right where I was at the airport until like, one or two in the morning, and then they finally come and say, well, the plane’s not coming. JoAnne Gritter  19:04 Yeah, that really rocks the brand reputation. I also see that in health care a lot, which, God bless everybody in health care, it’s hard, but like, if all those services are disjointed and the scheduling gives you a different feeling than the doctor gives and trying to do things online, it doesn’t match what your experience is in person. People don’t want to go to that provider anymore. You know, they’re like, this is confusing. I just want help. Just want to get what you’re promising. Christian Klepp  19:35 It’s a very for lack of a description of fragmented ecosystem. JoAnne Gritter  19:39 Yeah, absolutely. And that’s a bigger issue than we can solve here, but Christian Klepp  19:43 Yeah, no amount of branding is going to fix that. JoAnne Gritter  19:47 You got to follow through on it. Christian Klepp  19:49 That’s absolutely right. That’s absolutely right. Talk to us about how aligning, and you’ve touched on it briefly, how aligning soul and action will help to build. Trust, loyalty and resilience and please provide examples where relevant. JoAnne Gritter  20:04 Let me think of an example. We work with a very large medical device manufacturer, and we’ve worked with them for 15, probably close to 20 years now. And so 15 years ago, they were very product centric. They also grow by acquisition. So they have, like several different companies that came in under this master global brand. And even though they have the same logo, they still had their own kind of visual identity. They all talked about their stuff differently. And as a result of that, in those different teams, the customers were getting wildly different experiences from this company, even though they were all under the same master company. So they rebranded. We helped them rebrand seven years ago, maybe, and this is a global organization where they brought all their business units under the same brand. They have a very strict, robust brand now. And I’m not saying that everybody needs 100 page brand guidelines. They don’t, but, like they they went all in on branding, and they make all their new employees do their brand training. It’s worked in through their onboarding. It’s worked in through their like, performance conversations, and they have just really exploded and created this, this amazing reputation as a leader. Christian Klepp  21:25 I’m sorry you’re talking about, you’re talking about real branding, then JoAnne Gritter  21:27 Real branding. Yes, they are now a leader in their industry. I mean, they were big before, but they have just really exploded in the last seven years since rebranding, and it’s been really helpful for them, because now they still grow by acquisition, but they bring in a new company, and they know what the process is to get them on board, not just from a visual identity, like rebranding all the collateral, like the sales enablement and stuff like that, but bringing the internal teams up to speed about like, what what we stand for, what we hire, like, what kind of values we Look for, so that every customer gets the same experience Christian Klepp  22:04 from your experience. How did that exercise of helping them to re brand and take all of this because, you know, there’s that situation of taking all the business units and putting them under one roof, so to speak. How did that exercise help to improve them as an organization. JoAnne Gritter  22:22 It’s been a long time, like in multiple phases. So it improves their organization. It creates a lot of clarity for them. So they’re not like redoing each other’s work, and they’re not all creating the same or they’re they’re not all creating from scratch anymore. They have a they have a similar starting point on, like, the different messaging pillars that they need to hit, even for just their products, you know. So this goes into product messaging and product launch. So like, if they are medical device, they are they want to sell, you know, knee replacements or or stuff along those lines, they know that they need to hit on a couple core values, and they need to make sure that they are targeting the same audience, and that they need to make sure that they that what they’re saying out there aligns with the master brand. Of course, there’s they still need to do the differentiators on the product level, but they also have the full brand that that supports it. So it’s just a higher level like reputation. I like to, I like to compare like branding to your reputation. So that goes along with every product that they bring in. Christian Klepp  23:32 Yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. Okay, we get to the part in the conversation. We’re talking about actionable tips. And you’ve, you’ve actually given us quite a bit already, but if we were to summarize it, okay, JoAnne, like, if there was somebody out if there was somebody out there that was listening to this conversation, and they were listening to what you were saying, and they were like, oh my goodness, this is exactly what we’re going through right now, right? I mean, besides contacting you, right, what are like three to five things that you would recommend they do right now to realign for long term growth using brand strategy, JoAnne Gritter  24:10 I would take a look at what brand strategy you already have, if you have one otherwise kind of creating at least the bones of that. Like, what are our values? What are we focused on? What is our purpose here and mission? And then, like, what are messaging pillars or groups that align with those values? And then once you have those making sure that you have a succinct narrative or story, or even, like an elevator pitch, that everybody is aligned on. Having that is kind of a simple, hopefully a simple thing for you to figure out and align on, and then auditing the customer journey for those promises and values. So like, if you have a customer journey, they’re going from, you know, awareness of you. Or a problem to consideration between you and your company, and, you know, multiple other companies, and then you’re they’re making a decision, then they’re purchasing, then they’re hopefully your customer experience, and your delivery teams are delivering on those promises, and then you’re creating loyalty. So that’s the customer journey. So of these phases are, they are the customers still experiencing the brand that you want them to experience. So that’s like a little audit that you can do. And then from there, also making sure that all of your content that’s out there, from your like your brochures, your website, your sales enablement kind of stuff, making sure that that’s still aligned to the brand and the message that that you want it to and then making sure that, of course, throughout the company, in your like, HR documentation, you’re, I’ve said onboarding a million times, but like, making sure that everybody that’s coming into your organization understands who you are and who you who you serve, and why? Christian Klepp  26:01 Absolutely, absolutely. And that’s a really good list. And I have to ask you this question, because you know, at the time of the recording, we’re at the end of 2025, and you did bring up AI, so I’m going to bring it up again. How, how has in your experience, from what you’re seeing out there, how has AI impacted brand strategy and all the work that comes along with that. JoAnne Gritter  26:24 Well, that’s a loaded question, right? So as far as brand strategy, I kind of see it. AI can be used as a tool. It should not replace thinking and actually talking to your customers and your employees and your sales team. So you can use AI as a crutch to to, like, ask it for ideas, idea generation. You can use it for deep research on your on your audience, and stuff like that. But nothing replaces the gold standard of talking to people. So like, the the best resources from that research perspective are your customers, or your prospective customers and your sales team, if you can’t get to those customers, will often hear those like, you know, positive and negatives about your products and services. So getting to those and aligning on stakeholders, AI can be used as you know, you can use it to help think of ideas for like, let me think if you were thinking of like values, like core values, like in and messaging pillars, you can say, hey, you know, I really want it to be something along these lines. We’re circling around on like, exactly right the what the right way to phrase this is. And it can give you 50 different ideas, and you can cross out 45 of them and then land on like the top five that you communicate with your team. Don’t ever take it for rate for like per vatum, sorry, exactly as chat GPT gives you, Christian Klepp  27:55 at face value. JoAnne Gritter  27:57 Thank you. I see that that is a lot harder for early career individuals because they don’t have that discernment yet. So they, they will, they will use it as a crutch, and then, like, oftentimes not have that same kind of editing expertise to see what actually works and what doesn’t. So like pairing AI as a tool with with human intelligence and empathy, for sure, Christian Klepp  28:23 Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, at least in from my observation, and this is where I think AI really falls flat, especially when you’re coming up with the verbal expression component of brand strategy. AI doesn’t really have any soul or character, like everything, it turns out, is very, for lack of a better description, lifeless, so, and that’s where the human element, or to your point, the human intervention, can then come into play, because then you can inject that story, you can inject that human emotion, which also is a very crucial component in B2B, right? As much as people like to say, oh, B2B is all factual, right? And I would, I would disagree with that, JoAnne Gritter  29:06 yeah, it’s, it’s quality over quantity. Now, you know people, people can spot, can spot the AI generated content, and there can be a whole bunch of it, and that can help you in a variety of ways. But if it’s not actually, if it doesn’t sound human speaking or human human sounding, then, then people reject it and they don’t trust it as much. Christian Klepp  29:28 Okay, get up on your soapbox a status quo that you passionately disagree with, and why? JoAnne Gritter  29:37 I passionately disagree with data only marketing. So the big push for data driven marketing, I am, I am on board with that at face value, but it still doesn’t tell the whole story, because you can still look at data from, let’s say you did like a. Um, a focus group about about what customers want from a like a beverage or something. I’m thinking of Coca Cola, and they and they say that they they want it to be healthy. They want it to be low sugar. They want it to taste amazing. They want it to make them, you know, feel great, and stuff like that that does not you’re gonna try to create like this Frankenstein kind of soda instead, instead of recognizing that, like, there’s more psychology to this. Like a Coca Cola has, like, a whole traditional, like branding kind of way that, or traditional and emotional way that they make people feel, and that doesn’t show up in the data, necessarily. That doesn’t show up in the performance data. You know that that is a totally different kind of research too. Christian Klepp  30:51 Yeah, yeah, JoAnne Gritter  30:55 You know, that’s performance, marketing and branding. Christian Klepp  30:58 I totally agree. I totally agree that, as much as there is a big camp out there that says the future is data driven now when it comes to B2B Marketing, and I’m like, Yeah, JoAnne Gritter  31:11 humans are tricky. Christian Klepp  31:13 We’re not robots. Absolutely, absolutely, okay, here comes the bonus question. So Rumor has it that you like to draw. JoAnne Gritter  31:23  I do. Christian Klepp  31:24 Yes, and from one enthusiastic sketcher to another, I thought, I thought deep and hard about this question. Tell us about one of the most well exciting, yes, but more importantly, one of the most challenging works that you’ve created to date. So what was the theme and subject? What made it so challenging to draw, and what did you learn from that experience when you when you completed it? JoAnne Gritter  31:50 I really like to find, like, kind of micro moments I have. I have three children at home, and I like to take pictures, or, like, capture, like small moments of, like one of them snuggling the cat, or like holding hands or doing something unexpected. And in, like, not a macro view, but in a micro view of like, the different connections that people have. And then, usually, I’ll take a picture, and then I will sketch those out after they go to sleep and stuff like that. And that’s just kind of my own personal way to, I don’t know it’s it’s therapeutic. It’s a way to see, see the beauty in the world, you know, and to slow down in the moment. Christian Klepp  32:37 100%. I like to call it Balsam for the soul. JoAnne Gritter  32:40 Yeah, Christian Klepp  32:40 all right, I don’t know about you, but like, I like to sketch in the in this very room where we’re doing the recording, and I usually play classical music. So like, show pen, so something like, with with piano. Like, no opera, because that can get a bit too dramatic. JoAnne Gritter  32:59 I like classical too, when, when I’m focused at classical music, and I also like binaural beats, or it’s more like meditation kind of music. So kind of zone, zone into the moment, instead of all the crazy thoughts that go through your head and all the things you have to do. Christian Klepp  33:17 Very nice, very nice. One of the things I learned about drawing is pretty much like certain aspects of our professional work, you know, like marketing and branding. It starts with a line, and then you just keep adding the layers, right? And it’s almost the same like when you’re implementing a campaign, you know, some especially nowadays, right? You try to start small first, and do a lot of testing to see if it works. And you scale from there. And I like to, I like to think of drawings that way too. You start, you start not by adding the details. You start like, you know, with a lighter pencil. And there’s a certain, there’s a certain way of holding the pencil tool, right, so you have lesser control. And just, it’s just a bit free flowing. And for me personally, it took me a long time to start drawing like that, because I’m like, No, then I don’t have control of the process. But that’s kind of the point, right? Let go of the perfectionism, right? JoAnne Gritter  34:18 You outline it first, and then you start filling in. You know that the shadows and the light marks, and then you slowly bring in the detail. I mean, that you’re totally right, that that is like a marketing or branding strategy. You got to outline it first before you go fully in on any specific detail. Otherwise, you’re you may be way off target. Christian Klepp  34:38 That’s it. That’s it. I mean, JoAnne like I think we just found our next podcast interview topic. But thank you so much for coming on and for sharing your expertise and experience with the listeners. So please a quick introduction to yourself and how people out they can get in touch with you. JoAnne Gritter  34:57 JoAnne Gritter, I’m at DDM Marketing and Communications headquartered in Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA. And I am COO, Vice President of our company. You can get a hold of me at joanneg@teamddm.com or you can just check us out at Teamddm.com Christian Klepp  35:18 Fantastic, fantastic. And we will be sure to like drop all those links in the show notes. So once again, JoAnne, thanks so much for your time. Take care, stay safe and talk to you soon. JoAnne Gritter  35:27 Thanks, Christian. Bye. Christian Klepp  35:29 Bye, for now you.

How to Fix Boring Brand Podcasts If we're going to be perfectly honest, many branded podcasts are either boring or they sound just like a recycled commercial. To win the hearts and minds of your B2B target audience, you must move beyond generic corporate messaging and create high-quality content that addresses your listeners' needs. So how can brands produce engaging content that will resonate with their audiences, and what strategic role does B2B storytelling play?That's why we're talking to Jen Moss (Co-Founder and Chief Creative Officer, JAR Podcast Solutions), who shared her expertise and strategic insights on how to fix boring brand podcasts. During our conversation, Jen discussed the importance of creating engaging brand podcasts that build trust and loyalty. She explained why B2B podcasts should go beyond product promotion and focus on deeper stories and societal issues. Jen also highlighted the need for creative courage, proper planning, rigorous pre-production, and engagement with the audience. She advised against rushing into production without proper ideation and marketing budget. Jen also underscored the power of authentic B2B storytelling and cautioned against relying too heavily on AI for content creation. https://youtu.be/sVlsvotzFEE Topics discussed in episode: [02:22] The definition of a successful brand podcast: It shouldn’t just be a CEO talking about products, but rather a way to facilitate deeper conversations on industry issues.  [05:12] Why brands need “creative courage” to stand out in a saturated market, including experimenting with fiction or narrative formats.  [08:32] How to tell a good B2B story by focusing on “beats,” high stakes, and the transparent struggle rather than just the solution.  [17:28] The top pitfalls in podcasting: Failing to budget for marketing, ignoring audience analytics, and drop-off rates.  [29:25] A real-world example of how Genome BC used human storytelling to make complex scientific topics accessible and engaging.  [37:40] Why using AI purely for speed and volume is a mistake, and why the mission of podcasting should be connection, not efficiency. Companies and links mentioned: Jen Moss on LinkedIn  JAR Podcast Solution  Genome BC Bumper Ira Glass Cory Doctorow Nice Genes! Podcast Another Round Podcast Hot Ones Podcast Transcript Christian Klepp, Jen Moss Jen Moss  00:00 Podcasting, especially audio podcasting, I will say, is a sacred space between the ears. You are literally whispering in people’s ears if they don’t like what they’re hearing, if they start to feel like you’re shilling to them, they will yank out the earbuds and it’s game over for you. Christian Klepp  00:17 If we’re going to be perfectly honest, many brand podcasts are either boring or they just sound like a commercial. To win the hearts and minds of your target audience, you need to create content that serves your listeners and is something they actually want to hear. So how can you achieve that? And what role does B2B Marketing play in producing successful brand podcasts? Welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers in the Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp, today I’ll be talking to Jen Moss, who will be answering that question. She is the Co-Founder and Chief Creative Officer of JAR Podcast Solutions, which helps create quality podcasts that earn trust. Tune in to find out more about what this B2B Marketers Mission is, okay, and I’m gonna say, Jen Moss, welcome to the show. Jen Moss  01:05 Thank you so much for having me. Christian Klepp  01:07 Great to have you on. We’ve had such a fantastic conversation before. I hit record. I probably should have recorded this earlier, but in any case, Jen Moss  01:14 Yes, if anyone needs any parenting tips, we got your back. Christian Klepp  01:18 Absolutely, absolutely that that book is coming out soon on Amazon. I’m just kidding, But Jen, really looking forward to this conversation, because, man, we are going to cover a topic which, you know, might rock the boat a little bit, but it’s all, you know, constructive, and you know, it’s all for the sake of growing in a positive way, right? Jen Moss  01:35 I think so, Christian Klepp  01:36 At least I like to think so. Jen Moss  01:38 That is the goal. Christian Klepp  01:39 Absolutely, absolutely, all right, so here it comes. So Jen, you’re on a mission to help brands craft story first, podcasts that earn trust, build loyalty and connect deeply with the audiences that matter most. So for today’s conversation, I’d like to zero in on the following topic. Here comes how to fix boring brand podcasts. I know we’ve got a ton to talk about, but let’s kick off this conversation with two questions, and I’m happy to repeat them. So what is it about brand podcasting that you wish more people understood? And number two is, where do most brand podcasts go wrong. Jen Moss  02:22 Okay, so those are both great questions, so that what is a branded podcast is probably a good place to start. A lot of people might think that it’s, you know, the CEO of a company talking about their products and services ad nauseam. And if you happen to want to buy those products and services, maybe you would listen to it, because you could get more information, like, kind of an informational, almost transactional thing. I think that’s what a lot of people imagine when they hear the words branded podcast. However, that there’s a lot more to branded podcasting than that, and a lot of the smarter sort of, I would say, savvy brands, the ones with kind of sophisticated marketing campaigns that are multifaceted, are looking at podcasting as a way to tell deeper stories, engage with conversations that are ongoing in society that really matter so, sort of a chance for the brand to show its stripes a little bit, and an opportunity to offer something to a target audience that is sort of like a kind of a gift. You know, like we’re going to give you something of value that you actually will benefit from or enjoy, learn something from, be emotionally moved by, you know, hear a good story, and it’ll be in an area that the brand cares about, that that kind of ticks the boxes in terms of, like, what are the brand’s values, but is not specifically, and this is very important, is not specifically related to the brand’s products and services, per se. So it’s more like, okay, the brand maybe exists in a certain wider industry, and there’s an issue in that industry that keeps coming up, or a new technology that’s affecting everything, something like that, something that needs to be talked about. And so they’ll, they’ll set out to kind of facilitate those kinds of conversations through their podcasts. And a branded podcast doesn’t need to be just a one on one interview. It could be, it could be a fiction podcast if you were feeling extra frisky and creative that day, you know, if you wanted to do something fun, like I had a conversation with a solar company not that long ago, and we actually pitched them a fiction podcast about a world powered by sun. And because we thought the opportunity for a solar panel company to sponsor a fiction podcast about a world powered by sun like sci-fi would be, would be exciting and different. Christian Klepp  05:11 How did that go? Jen Moss  05:12 Yeah, well, we didn’t end up getting that job because they didn’t have the creative courage to do it. And so this is, this is the kind of conversation that I’m always on with brands is like, have the creative courage to do something that’s a little out of the ordinary because there’s 500 million podcasts or whatever, so you’ve got to stand out. And so you’ve got to think about how to stand out, and one of the best ways to do that is to do something different that hasn’t been done before. For example, there is a great branded fiction podcast called Murder in HR, and it’s by an online HR platform company. And, you know, like, it’s just a scripted fiction true, true crime. It’s not really true because it’s scripted fiction podcast. But, you know, it’s kind of different and fun. So, so there’s stuff like that. There’s, you know what we would call narrative podcasting, which is a mixture of script and clip, where you’re kind of combining on scene recordings with interview tape, with narration, and kind of thoughtfully braiding all those things together, like an NPR (National Public Radio) storytelling experience or a CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) storytelling experience. So there’s all of that that can be part of branded podcasting, and so I just frankly think it’s kind of lazy when brands just decide that they’re going to talk about themselves indefinitely in a podcast. If I want to learn about a brand, I and buy something from them, I’ll go to their website. But if the brand wants to win hearts and minds and raise awareness and build trust and kind of operate on that deeper level to widen their impact. That’s where a podcast, and sponsoring a podcast, or getting behind the production of a podcast can really help. So that’s, I mean, I guess that kind of answers your second question, where do brands go wrong? And it’s usually with just doing the obvious, doing the thing that they think is the most direct route to a customer. And with podcasting, I try to remind people there is a difference between a customer and an audience. A customer is someone who already, at least wants to know more about your product and is thinking of buying maybe they’ve bought from you before. An audience may include those customers, but it may include other people as well who have a wider array of interests and are not yet, do not yet know that they need to buy a new pair of running shoes, but then the next time they need a new pair of running shoes, they may think of you because of that excellent podcast they listen to where you had all those celebrities on talking about the things that motivate them to push harder and go faster, right? So it’s just sort of, it’s a little bit of a roundabout way of winning customers by winning hearts and minds is how I would describe it. Christian Klepp  08:03 Yeah, winning hearts and minds. I like that. Now. That was a great way to open up this conversation. And thanks for sharing that I had two follow up questions for you. So let’s start with, you know, people loving to hear a good story, so let’s, let’s, let’s take a step back, because remember, the audience of this podcast. They’re mostly B2B Marketers. So from a B2B context, what would you how would you define what a good story is? Jen Moss  08:32 Yeah, that’s a great question. So I mean, a good story is told beat by beat, this happened, and then this happened, and then this happened. And here’s the lesson we took from it. Is one of the ways that it has been boiled down, I believe, by Ira Glass, you know, icon of podcasting. So I think you know thinking about even with B2B storytelling, if you’re telling a story that’s based in your industry, and you’re trying to position yourselves as thought leaders in that space. And let’s say you’re interviewing someone who is another company that sells a particular product, and you’re talking to them about a case study, instead of saying, like, what is the product and how does it work, try saying, tell us a story about a problem that someone was having. Start with the stakes, like, what would have happened if they didn’t solve that problem, what was at stake, then build to like how that problem got solved, and perhaps the product or service was involved, right, right? But build to how the problem was solved, so that there’s a bit of an arc from A to B to C to D, so that you start with a problem, work towards a solution. And and make sure to take the time to identify the stakes, like, what would have happened if it didn’t work. Where did it go wrong along the way? Where were the points where you thought, this is not going to work worse? We’re we’re hooped, you know, make sure that when you are telling stories, you’re actually telling the whole story, not just the win, not like we solved it this way, this way and this way. And aren’t we great? Nobody cares. That’s just bragging, and it comes across very badly in podcasting, podcasting, especially audio podcasting, I will say, is a sacred space between the ears. You are literally whispering in people’s ears. If they don’t like what they’re hearing, if they start to feel like you’re shilling to them, they will yank out the earbuds and it’s game over for you, right? They’ll go look at something else or go walk their dog, right? So you really have to just really focus in on the beat by beat. How are you going to hold attention throughout? You can also use sound design to support the tension arc of the story. And don’t be afraid to show the tough stuff, the hard stuff, the stuff that didn’t work, the stuff that even makes you look a bit foolish. We tried this as a brand. It didn’t work. We failed, but what we learned from that was this, right, if you can be a little bit transparent and a little bit more real, you will win hearts and minds, like I said, and if you want, if you can’t do that, people have a nose for BS, and they will smell it, and they will not take you as seriously. So it’s like a sacred duty to tell the truth, which is, which is challenging in a branded space where it’s all about spin and messaging and stuff like that. But the more you can do that, the more credible your content will be. Christian Klepp  11:56 Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, on that topic, the ones I love the most, of the guys that say, like, you know, I, um, I lost my job and I moved to my parents basement, and now I’m making multiple six figures, all within the span of 12 months. Jen Moss  12:10 I mean, amazing, amazing. Not true, but also, at least they understand the tension arc. Christian Klepp  12:17 Yes, that’s certainly one way of looking at it, yeah, second follow up question. And I love this, like, creative courage, right? Jen Moss  12:28 Yeah. Christian Klepp  12:29 Not many people have it, if we’re going to be perfectly honest, right? Jen Moss  12:32 Yeah, I’m realizing that. I’m realizing that the older I get, the more I realize how rare it actually is creative courage. Yeah. Christian Klepp  12:40 Here’s the thing, like, Why do you think that that’s so prevalent, even in in the podcast space? Is it because it’s it because it’s it’s the unknown that people are worried about, like, what if it doesn’t work? Jen Moss  12:50 Yeah, if you think about podcasting, especially in a branded space, but really in any space, yeah, it’s a vulnerable act. You’re putting yourself out there, you’re putting your brand out there, you’re putting your stories out there, you’re putting your company out there. You’re putting, in some cases, your job on the line, right, by spending budget on this thing, right? So the so the stakes are real for the people involved, and it’s tricky, because striving for perfection right out of the gate is possibly a mistake. I think that podcasting has always been kind of an organic form where it evolves over time. You’ve got to study the audience data and see whether what you’re doing is actually resonating with your audience, and if it’s not, you’ve got to be prepared to pivot and change and adapt the storytelling, the timing, the pacing, the music, all of those things have to be a little bit up for grabs if the audience isn’t resonating. So I do think, I do think there’s that to consider, yeah. Christian Klepp  13:53 And I suppose people’s tastes very right, like, what people find is creative is very can be very subjective. Jen Moss  14:01 The creative bravery thing is tricky because of all the reasons I listed, but also because you’re right. It means different things to different people, like for a bank or some sort of finance institution or a pharma company in a very heavily regulated industry, to be like creatively brave in their storytelling is pretty difficult. It’s been, it’s been compared to putting up a tent in the rain, right? Trying to be creative in a corporate environment, putting up a tent in the rain with your spouse is one way to think about Christian Klepp  14:34 Putting up a tent in the rain with your spouse. And there’s a T-Rex sitting… Jen Moss  14:38 Graded by a bunch of Russian judges, yeah. Christian Klepp  14:42 Absolutely. Jen Moss  14:43 Yeah. It’s tricky, and so to maintain the principles of creativity within that environment is hard. So the principles of creativity include brainstorming, ideation, adaptation, experimentation, so trial and trial and error a little bit, and eventually, you through that process, that iterative process, you arrive at a really great finished work of art, hopefully. But those people who have not been through the creative process and trusted a bunch of you know flaky writers with their with their goals before, and I say that as a flaky writer, it’s it can be hard to trust the creative process if you’re not used to going through it. So if you are working in an industry where everything is about quarterly planning, everything is planned down to the minutia. List, list, list, bullet point, bullet point, bullet point, check, check, check, box. And then somebody’s coming in and saying, Well, what about if we explored this? And let’s discuss, Let’s hypothetically explore this topic. You know, there are personality types out there, and a lot of them are working in corporate jobs who are just like, No, I don’t know how to do that. I don’t trust it, and it totally freaks me out. So that kind of I would call it, like floating the creative balloon and batting it around for a while before you make a decision. Trying to create room for that process to happen before you launch your podcast is quite important, and giving proper space and time to that creative process is something that I think the more corporate and kind of button down podcasting becomes, the more I’m seeing that we have to fight that, because we have to be accountable with our timelines. We have to be accountable with our messaging. We have to be accountable with all this stuff. So that’s all very important. Brand safety matters. But if you don’t allow space for that creative ideation phase, and I would, I would argue, frankly, ongoing space within your process, then you will not rise the balloon as high as you could. You could probably still do something that is regularly released and has decent sound quality. So check, check, but is it going to win hearts and minds of audiences? Is it going to stand out 500 million other podcasts? No, it is not. Yeah. So that’s why it matters. Christian Klepp  17:17 Absolutely, absolutely. Moving on to key pitfalls to avoid. What are they and what should folks be doing instead? Jen Moss  17:28 I mean, there’s so there’s so many pitfalls. I don’t know where to start … Christian Klepp  17:32 Try to condense them into like, maybe, like the five, the top five that you’ve seen. Jen Moss  17:36 Well, let’s look at maybe, let’s look at the phases of doing a podcast, pre-production, production and post-production. So in pre-production, I think the big pitfalls are failing to allow time and space for creative ideation, rushing into it without proper consideration. I think failing to set aside budget to market your podcast can be a mistake, and I think budget for marketing is quite important because, well, we’ll get into that in post production, but one of the important ways for people to find podcasts is through ads on other podcasts, and that costs money. So there’s a little aspect of a pay to play nature that kind of creeps into podcasting. I think it’s important to be realistic about that. It’s not the only way to promote a podcast. There’s many good, organic ways, but if you can reserve some budget for marketing, I think it’s a good idea to do so. And yeah, I would say in pre-production, failure to think big and kind of have embraced blue sky thinking early on, what could this podcast be? Who is it for? Right? Those are very important questions. So at JAR, we have a system. We call the JAR system. It’s job, audience, result, and in pre production, that’s where we really focus on job and audience. What is the job of the podcast? Why are you doing it? Who is the audience? Who is it for? What do they need? Where do they hang out? Are they on audio platforms? Are they on video platforms? Are they YouTubers? Like, what you know? Who are you talking to, and why? Is very important. So job and audience, and then with production, once you get into that big phase. That’s where I think, I sort of say it’s like, point your skis and go, but also bend your knees, because things are going to come up and so, for example, I always recommend having three or four possible guests lined up to service an episode. Because if the first one that you’re going after falls through due to timing and unavailability in your production timeline, an amateur podcaster would just be like, well, that’s okay. I’ll wait till October, when you’re free, whereas I’m saying, no, no. So if you want to do a podcast on this topic, and it’s important to do it now because timeliness matters, then you need to have a couple of other options that are backup options for that guest if they’re unavailable, so things like that. So prepping backups to your backups for your guests is a really good idea so that you can keep your production moving forward and stay focused on the ideas that you’re you’ve determined to explore. So making a plan and then doing your best to stick to it, I think, but keeping your knees bent critically within that plan. Some people have said, Well, is it kind of like you write like a podcast Bible? And I’m like, No, it’s more of a pirate code, but you do need to have a code like there needs to be a plan going forward, but it can change. And then post production, I think the biggest thing is people fail to study their analytics, or fail to understand and interpret their analytics. So if you’re not looking at your audience data, then you’re not getting the most out of that those analytics platforms. So you should be looking at your Spotify data. You should be looking at your apple, podcast data, your YouTube data, the data from your hosting platform. At JAR, we use a company called Bumper. They’re a Canadian company that does a really nice job of pulling together a dashboard which shares a lot of valuable information about about how your podcast is performing. So you can actually see things like, Oh, I made a 30 minute podcast, but everyone’s dropping off at 21 minutes. I wonder why. So either make it really much more interesting at the 21 minute mark, or make a shorter podcast. That’s what the audience data is telling you, right? So being receptive and flexible, keeping your knees bent throughout is very important, and then using that data to feed back into the creative cycle, so that it becomes this circular process of testing and learning, studying the results, making changes, and you’re gradually honing your podcast into something that your audience really, really responds to. So that’s those are the pitfalls that we try to steer people through and around. Christian Klepp  22:08 That is a great list. And you probably, for those that are listening to the audio version of this, I was, I was nodding the whole time, but, um, one of the things that I would add in there, which I’ve seen happen, and it’s happened to me, and I’m not gonna say who it is, but like, you know, one of the things that they immediately did after having me as a guest on is they pushed me into a follow up call, which big surprise was a was a sales pitch. It’s like, Thank you for being on our show. By the way. Would you like to buy some advertising space in our magazine? Would you like to exhibit in our, you know, upcoming event. You know, for small business, you know, we only charge $10,000 you know, it’s not that much. It’s like, Jen Moss  22:47 For a lot of small businesses, that is a lot, right? Christian Klepp  22:50 Exactly. Jen Moss  22:50 It’s kind of like, to me, if you think of it like dating, you want to play a little bit cool, like, it’s great. You can think of a podcast as a networking tool, absolutely, but it’s you have to just not be like Johnny obvious about it, like, maybe, maybe wait a few months and then reach out and say, Hey, we’re having a special promotion, and we’re you people who have been on our show get a reduced rate or something like that. Sure. Christian Klepp  23:19 Yeah, exactly. Jen Moss  23:20 Or just trust the universe. You could also try that, which would be, I had a great you like you and I had a great connection on this podcast. We chat very well. We even talked before the recording about parenting. So, like, we kind of click. So like, if there were ever anything that we could help each other with, I’m sure we would at least be somewhat amenable to it, and maybe that’s enough. Maybe that’s enough, right? Christian Klepp  23:45 Yeah, probably, probably. Jen Moss  23:46 Yeah. So I think yes, it’s an opportunity to network, but it is also in the same way that yeah, between people’s ears is a sacred space. Also when someone comes on your show as an unpaid guest, which most podcasts? I think it’s worth pointing out that most podcast guests are unpaid, so they’re doing that out of the sort of the free desire of exchange of ideas, right? And so respecting that in and of itself is very important. And this is why podcasting has risen to such heights is because it is really grounded in that kind of authentic communication, where people are really trying to figure stuff out together, that’s it, and it’s wonderful, and it’s amazing. And so you got to respect that. You got to let that be enough sometimes Christian Klepp  24:36 Absolutely, absolutely, wow. So you’ve kind of touched on this already, but in our previous conversation, you mentioned that in podcasting, and this does this is not unique to just the B2B space alone, but like in podcasting in general, the story comes first, not the product or the promo. So please elaborate on that. Jen Moss  24:58 No one is going to listen a 30 minute ad, right? It’s just not gonna happen. As soon as they detect the fact that you’re selling, they’re gone. If you want to have some follow up product information in your show notes, or, you know, I wouldn’t necessarily recommend that, but you could, I suppose, or on your website, great. But the purpose of a podcast is not necessarily that sort of bottom of funnel sales. The purpose of a podcast is, is, it’s a top of funnel engagement opportunity, right? So you’re really, you’re you can build trust, you can build awareness, you can reach new people, and the way you do that is by being relevant and authentic and telling good stories in a way that holds attention. So my own background is from, you know, years of working in radio, documentary storytelling and things like that, I really learned how every, every piece of the story matters. You really have to break down the story arc. Like I said. You got to examine the stakes. You got to think about pacing. All of these things are critical and a funny thing too that I’ve learned I also teach creative writing, and one of the things that one of the lessons that I share with my students, is that the more specific you are in your storytelling, the more it will resonate universally. So through the specific example comes the universal ‘aha' moment. Whereas if you go in with a bunch of like, I’m like, I’m doing right now, if you go in with a bunch of principles, like, here’s what you got to do, and here’s, here’s the rules, and you should follow these rules, 10 Steps to heaven. Kind of, kind of formulas that might work in a, in a sort of, like a bullet point list on the internet, but in podcasting, that doesn’t really work. It’s, it’s more of a, it’s more of a like, I mean, they say the devil is in the details, but I actually think so are the angels like you really like, if I were to tell you a story about a time I worked with a client, let me think of a real example, Like, okay, Genome, BC (Bristish Columbia) is a client of ours. They are a non-profit here in British Columbia in Canada, and they are dedicated to promoting Genomic Science, and specifically they’re promoting the ability of Genomic Science to solve big problems that the world is facing, okay, like global warming type level problems, right? So that’s great. So how do we tell that story? How do we tell that specifically, we could have a bunch of egg heads on to talk about their research, and we do, we have, it’s a science podcast. We have lots of eggheads, and they’re great, you know, but we have to balance that with like people who are impacted by the issues that the science is trying to address. So we did a piece recently about an episode about genetic testing for, you know, heart problems and things like that, and how we with the study of the human genome, we know with the study of the human genome, we now know so much more about about how to spot those problems almost before they happen, because of your genetic predisposition to certain problems. So we told that story by finding a high schooler who had had a heart attack because of a genetic problem that he didn’t know about. And we told that story beat by beat. I was on the field. This happened. My parents got a call. We talked to his parents, we interviewed everybody. They all told the story about the time the son had the heart attack. They all told it separately in their own way, and we intercut it into this really tense, like, you know, exciting, really piece of storytelling. Then we brought on the scientists to talk about the power of genomic testing and genetic testing and genetic awareness around these health issues, but we first establish why it matters, and it matters because it affects people’s lives. So if you’re doing storytelling and you can connect your ideas to something that’s real, then you’re going to you kind of, you win, you win the storytelling day. Christian Klepp  29:27 Oh, that’s an that’s an excellent example. And, and I hear you, the easier path would have been to just invite the scientists on, or whoever it was, and they go on and talk about all of their research, and Jen Moss  29:39 Which is amazing stuff. But I don’t know if you’ve interviewed any scientists. Lately. They can be a little dry, they can be a little dense and hard to listen to. Christian Klepp  29:47 I’ve interviewed I’m associate professors. Does that count? Jen Moss  29:52 Yeah, it does. Yeah. People get very granular, right when they’re studying a very specific interest, like that, and that’s what makes them so incredible at their jobs, and I have huge respect for these scientists and and for our host, who is a scientist, credibility also matters with with your core target audience. So it’s not like we de emphasize the science, we just frame the science with important storytelling that helps the wider audience understand why this matters. So if you think about your core target audience, and then you think about people who are just adjacent to that, what would it take those people, the ones who are kind of peering over the fence at your brand, you know, or at your topic? So we say that that particular show for Genome BC, it’s for scientists and for the science curious sort of thing. And so we try to remember the science curious folk when we’re doing our storytelling. It doesn’t mean that we dumb it down. It means that we open our arms and we try to write it in a way that’s inclusive to a slightly wider audience, while still delivering excellent, groundbreaking, scientific insight that is timely and relevant. It’s a hard line to walk. Actually. Christian Klepp  31:07 It is. Jen Moss  31:07 It takes a lot of skill and it takes a lot of attention, but if you get it right, you know that show, that show, is winning every award we enter. Christian Klepp  31:17 Wow, yeah, remind me what the name of the show was again. Jen Moss  31:20 Oh, it’s called Nice Genes, like G-E-N-E-S yes, yeah. And then they have a short form one called Genes Shorts. Christian Klepp  31:27 Genes shorts, okay? Because why not? All right, Jen Moss  31:30 Because why not. Trying to have a little fun. So what’s gonna stand out? Right? We thought, you know, Nice Genes!, exclamation mark. That’ll stand out. Christian Klepp  31:38 Yeah, absolutely, absolutely, Jen, you’ve given us plenty of insights already and some actionable tips, but just imagine that there’s somebody out there that’s listening to the show and they’re like, gosh, you know what we are exactly in this situation right now. What advice would you give them? Like, maybe, like, three to five things they can take action on right now that they can help launch a podcast that is not boring and that doesn’t sound like PR (Public Relations). Jen Moss  32:06 So probably the best thing you could do is do a little bit of like light competitive research. So have a look at what other podcasts are in your space, in your topic area, right? And check out this. This is going to sound mean, but check out what’s wrong with them. Like, actually go and listen to as many of them as you can. Maybe give yourself a week to do that and make make a point of listening to five a day for a week. And then you’ll start to see, okay, the vast majority of these, they don’t have good sound quality, like the host doesn’t have a proper microphone. Or the vast majority of these, the lighting is terrible, or the vast majority of these, they’re asking the same questions over and over again, and, oh, I saw that guest on three different podcasts, right? So if that’s happening, then ask yourself the next logical question, which is, how can we be different? How can we find our own kind of quadrant to step into? How can we rewrite the book here and do something unexpected that still meets our values, that still targets the right audience, but does it in a way that is going to just shake things up a little bit and challenge people’s expectations of us and and our own expectations of ourselves. So don’t take the lowest hanging fruit, at least until you’ve considered some of the other options. And it may be that you’re like, No, I actually really want to do a straight interview podcast, because I really want to have deep conversations with people like this, like this podcast does, and that’s great, but then you know, like you’ve chosen that for a reason, like you’ve you’ve given it due consideration. And then within that, even within a if you’re planning to do a straight ahead interview podcast, is there’s no shame in that. But even thinking about, like, what would make your interview podcast different? So it’s the it. Could you describe it at a cocktail party as, like, it’s the one where they blank, blank, blank, right? Could you describe it in one sentence, and is it going to be memorable that sentence? There was a show I used to watch years ago and listen to where, what was it called? It was called Another Round, and it was one of the first shows where they would drink and podcast, but they would do a ton of Political Research, these two journalists, and then they would interview someone, while getting increasingly sloshed, the guest and the two hosts, and they would get increasingly sloshed, and the questions would become more and more but, I mean, they were very successful. They had, they were on WNYC. They had Hillary Clinton on when she was running for president. So, like, it this, this is the kind of thing I’m saying. Like, I’m not saying everyone should drink in podcasts. Us. No, let’s be clear. That’s not my message. Yeah, my message is, what makes your podcast, what makes you distinct in the way you’re delivering your podcast? What is your framing device? What is the lens that you’re bringing to it? Christian Klepp  35:12 Yeah, right, yeah. No, no, I hear you. I hear you. Jen Moss  35:15 Yeah. So I think those would be my biggest pieces of advice. Is just to spend the time trying to, trying to position yourself differently. Christian Klepp  35:25 No, fantastic, fantastic. It reminds me of, I think the show was called in the Hot Seat, and it was by a cyber security firm, and they were, they were bringing in somebody that was, and I didn’t actually realize there was such a role, but this is the person that’s actually responsible for negotiating with cyber criminals. Jen Moss  35:45 Whoa, that’s I’m immediately interested. Christian Klepp  35:48 That’s a pretty intense job, right? So, yeah, when they have all that ransomware and what have you right? So this is the guy that negotiates like, release all our release all our data, right? So anyways, the host asks him the questions, and with every question, they’re basically eating chicken wings with a different type of hot sauce. Jen Moss  36:10 Oh, yeah, yeah. Christian Klepp  36:11 And the more intense question, yeah, Jen Moss  36:14 Hot ones, yeah, yeah, yeah. Christian Klepp  36:15 The more intense the question gets, the hotter the sauce becomes. Jen Moss  36:19 Yes. That’s a great show. It’s they have all kinds of interesting people on it, and it’s interesting to watch people’s reactions shift as they get more and more overwhelmed by heat. Yeah. So that’s another super example of a framing device. I mean, arguably, that one’s a bit of a gimmick. Christian Klepp  36:36 Sure. Jen Moss  36:37 You don’t necessarily need to do something that obvious. It might be something like, on this show, we always ask a certain question, or we’re always trying to get at sort of, I would call it like, the the underlying idea of this show is we’re always trying to expose this concept, like, maybe you’re trying to prove that work life balance is important, and that’s your overarching goal, and that’s the lens that you bring to your to your all of your conversations that you have. So every time you’re able to, you bring up that theme in some way and explore it with a new guest. So just whatever it is, whatever the lens is, or the device that you’re framing with, it’s just important to be intentional about that? Christian Klepp  37:21 Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. All right, Jen, I have a feeling that you’ve been on your soapbox this whole time, but please just stay up there a while longer, while I ask you this question. All right, and a status quo in your area of expertise that you passionately disagree with and why? Jen Moss  37:40 Okay, well, right now there’s, am I allowed to mention the AI (Artificial Intelligence) please? Christian Klepp  37:49 Absolutely. Jen Moss  37:49 Okay. Well, right now there’s a lot of discussion around AI driven content, and one of the ways that it’s being sort of sold to people in the industry is that it will allow you to put out more content quicker. And I can see lots of advantages to AI in the production pipeline. For example, it can be helpful with research if you’re as long as you double fact check it. It can be helpful with correcting certain things in editing. You know, if a host mispronounces a word, or you need to do like, you need to remove some background noise. AI tools can be really, really helpful. So I’m not knocking ai i i teach it. For example, I teach creative writing for new media, and I’m very interested. I’m currently building an AI VR (Virtual Reality) poetry machine with some students. So, you know, I spent a lot of time thinking about AI, and I like it and hate it. It’s a double edged sword. But what I don’t agree with is that we should be measuring the efficacy of a tool based on how fast and how often it allows us to put out content. I just don’t think that an onslaught of mediocre content is what people want. I think it’s killing the internet. Corey Doctorow would say he would call it the in shittification of the internet. And it is already, it is already happening, right? He got check it out. He’s got a book out. Christian Klepp  39:22 Okay. Jen Moss  39:22 And so that’s, you know, that’s what I worry about, is that it’s becoming like a big content hose. And so then I actually believe that the way forward, in order to actually have your message heard and received by your intended audience is to really hold on to that authenticity piece. I would rather see people do things less often, but do them better and remember that quality matters. And if we can’t remember that, then the internet is just going to be a bunch of bots talking to each other, and it’s just stupid. I just think it’s stupid. So that’s the that’s, that’s, if you know, not to put too fine a point on it, podcasting is, is not about efficiency. It’s about communication. It’s about connection. It’s about contact. It’s about humans talking to humans. And if it’s, if you fail to recognize that it’s sort of at your peril, you know, Christian Klepp  40:23 Absolutely, absolutely. And I mean, it goes back to the point you were making at the beginning of this conversation. I mean, if you want to create a show that stands out and that’s different, right, then you probably shouldn’t be churning out vanilla content, right? Using AI. Jen Moss  40:39 Doesn’t work. Christian Klepp  40:39 That’s not the way to do it, right? Jen Moss  40:41 Go ahead, but no one will listen to it. So you’ll be able to be like, Look, I I tick, tick, tick. I put out this many episodes, or this many social media clips, or whatever it is. But what’s what are your consumption rates like? Are the right? Are the right people finding your content? Are they engaging with you? Is it moving the needle for you in terms of your goals, the job of the podcast? Like these are all the things that people really need to consider before they sort of hop on the AI bus, I think. And again, I’m not a Luddite, yeah. I use AI daily despite its rather terrifying environmental impact, yeah, yeah, but it’s become almost a ubiquitous tool that’s difficult to avoid in our line of work. But I do think that some people are really taking it too far, and it’s because they’re misunderstood. They’re misunderstanding the mission. The mission is not volume and efficiency. The mission is connection. Christian Klepp  41:41 Absolutely, absolutely Jen, wow. What a conversation. Well, at the very least this episode is not boring, right? Jen Moss  41:50 Like, I mean, I don’t know, ask my ask my 20 something daughter. Christian Klepp  41:58 Different strokes are different folks, I’m gonna say, but thank thank you so much for coming on and for sharing your expertise and experience with the listeners. So please, a quick introduction to yourself and how folks out there can get in touch. Jen Moss  42:09 with you. Oh, so the best way to get in touch with me would probably be through the JAR podcasts website, jarpodcasts.com and I’m also just Jen@jarpodcasts.com. Christian Klepp  42:22 Fantastic, fantastic. Once again. Jen Moss, thank you for your time. Take care, stay safe and talk to you soon. Jen Moss  42:29 Awesome. Thank you. Okay. Christian Klepp  42:30 Bye, for now. Jen Moss  42:31 Bye.

How to Use AI for B2B Storytelling Without Losing Your Brand So many B2B companies and marketing teams waste budget on generic content that fails to resonate or support core business goals. In an era where AI-generated is everywhere, smaller B2B brands often struggle to maintain a unique identity while competing against larger firms with massive content engines. The key to staying relevant lies in a B2B brand’s ability to be authentic, human-centric, and strategically consistent despite the pressure to automate everything. So how can B2B brands effectively integrate AI into their marketing workflows without losing their unique voice and brand integrity? That's why we're talking to Nick Usborne (Founder, Story Aligned), who shared his expertise on leveraging AI through the lens of strategic storytelling. During our conversation, Nick discussed the critical distinction between simple narrative and a brand’s unique story, highlighting a significant gap where only 7% of top AI prompt libraries actually focus on storytelling. He shared actionable advice on building a “story vault,” training staff to avoid “brand drift,” and enforcing consistent AI usage to maintain the trust of the audience. Nick also underscored the importance of keeping human elements at the forefront of content creation to prevent AI from feeling overly mechanical, and advocated for a balanced approach that ensures scalable growth without sacrificing a brand's authenticity. https://youtu.be/dtgvg2-XXoU Topics discussed in episode: [02:53] The “Why” Behind AI Adoption: Why companies must embrace AI not just for efficiency, but to avoid being left behind by competitors who are already scaling their reach.  [04:10] The “Moat” of Storytelling: Why narrative and voice can be easily copied by AI, but your brand's unique “lived story” is the only defensible moat you have.  [11:27] Pitfalls of Inconsistent AI Use: The dangers of “shadow AI” use by employees (e.g., Using personal accounts vs. company custom GPTs) and how it leads to brand drift.  [16:46] The Human Element vs. AI: Nick explains why AI can describe the beach but can't “feel the sand between its toes,” and why human “messiness” is key to connection.  [24:26] Building a Story Vault: Nick provides a practical framework for formalizing your brand's folklore—from founder stories to customer service wins—so they can be systematically used in AI content.  [28:17] Actionable Steps for Marketers: Three immediate steps to take: build your story vault, interview key stakeholders (founders, early employees), and analyze customer service transcripts for sentiment.  [30:11] The Problem with “Killer Prompt” Libraries: Why copying “top 20 prompt” lists is a strategic mistake that leads to generic, non-differentiated content. Companies and links mentioned: Nick Usborne on LinkedIn  Story Aligned  Transcript Nick Usborne, Christian Klepp Nick Usborne  00:00 AI can do a wonderful job in many ways, but it’s never walked down the beach and felt the sand between its toes. It’s read about it. It’s never eaten ice cream. It’s read about that, but it’s never felt it. So that’s what I mean by lived experience. I think that content and stories that truly resonate with people you use those kind of touch points the the deeply human side of being alive. And like, say, I think AI can get close when you prompt it really well, but also, there’s a messiness that makes us recognize one another, the little mistakes we make. That’s what makes us human. We are messy. AI, it’s not very good at being messy. You can ask it to be messy, and it’ll try to figure that out, but it’s really not the same. And like I say, I think people are very sensitive to this kind of nuance. Christian Klepp  00:51 When brands rely on the same AI tools and prompts, they start to sound like everyone else. That loss of voice can hurt trust and lead to something called Brand drift. So how can B2B Marketing teams scale content with AI while staying true to their story? Welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers in the Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp, today, I’ll be talking to Nick Usborne, who will be answering this question. He’s the Founder of Story Aligned, a training program for Marketing teams that want to scale content using AI while protecting the integrity of their brand story and voice. Tune in to find out more about what this B2B Marketers Mission is. Mr. Nick Usborne, welcome to the show, sir.  Nick Usborne  01:32 Thank you very much. Thank you Christian. Thank you for having me.  Christian Klepp  01:35 Pleasure to have you on the show. Nick, you know we had such a fantastic pre interview call. It was a bit of a you did drop a few hints and clues about what was to come, and I’m really looking forward to this conversation. I’m going to keep the audience in suspense a little while longer as I move us into the first question. So off we go.  Nick Usborne  01:55 Okay. Christian Klepp  01:56 All right, so, Nick, you’re on a mission to equip Marketing teams to scale AI powered content while staying aligned with their organization, story and voice. So for this conversation, let’s focus on the topic of how to use AI for B2B content without losing trust. And it is at the time of the recording, the end of 2025 and of course, we’re going to talk about AI, but we’re going to zoom in on something specific as it pertains to B2B content and a little bit of branding in there as well. But I wanted to kick off this conversation with two questions, and I’m happy to repeat them. So the first question is, why do you believe it’s so important for brands and their Marketing teams to embrace AI so that they can scale? And the second question is, why does this approach require the right prompts and guardrails? I think that’s one thing that you mentioned in our previous conversation, the whole the whole piece about prompts and guardrails. Nick Usborne  02:53 Well, the first question, why do companies need to embrace AI? And the ridiculous answer to that. It’s not a good answer, but it’s true is that because everyone else is, because your competitors are, and they will create content at scale while you are not, and they will achieve reach that you can’t achieve without AI. And in fact, if they do it well, their content, their new content, will be very good, content deeply researched beyond perhaps what you can do. So it’s like everything within AI right now, like, like, Why? Why do all the companies like open AI and Google and Meta, why they all racing? Because if they don’t, someone else will get there first. And it’s, I’m not saying it’s a great reason, but I think it is the fundamental reason for companies to embrace AI, is that you will be left behind if you don’t. This is a transformational moment, and as much as we’d like to have choice, I think in this matter, we don’t have a lot of choice. So that’s my answer to that question. Repeat the second question for me. Christian Klepp  04:00 Absolutely, absolutely so based on, based on that, like, why does this approach require the right prompts and guardrails? Nick Usborne  04:10 As part of my business, I’m constantly researching this, and in particular, I’m researching the prompts people do so when say, could be writers coders, but in our world. Let’s say writers, principally, or marketers, are using AI. They’re using prompts, and they’re generally prompting about two things. One is narrative, like, what should we say? Or, you know, please write us a blog post about x. So that’s the that’s the topic, that’s the narrative. And then they’ll put in something say, oh, please do it in a voice that is authoritative and yet accessible. All right, so now that’s a voice. What they haven’t mentioned is what I think is the foundational layer, which is, which is story. And that’s important, because story is the only thing that is uniquely yours, if you have an narrative, if you, if you have voice, if you talk about something in a particular way, I can copy that with AI. I can copy it at scale. I can, I can look at the transcripts of Christian podcasts, and I can say, oh, I want to do one in exactly. Tell her the same topic. I can, you know, so when you focus on narrative, on what you write about in voice. I can copy it. There’s no moat. The only moat you have is with story, because every company’s story is unique. We can look at origin stories, foundation stories, we can look at customer stories through case studies, things like that. Those are always unique. No one else has Apple’s origin story. No one else has virgin Atlantic’s Founder’s story, etc. But we did some research recently. Actually, we did some research months ago, and I reconfirmed it earlier this week. I ran it. I ran it all again to look at the data. If you look at the top 20 prompt libraries that you know the big, trustworthy companies and organizations that put out prompt libraries for companies. If you look at the top 20 libraries and the 1000s and 1000s of prompts within there, 76% of those prompts are about the narrative. What to say? 17 are about voice. How do you sound? Only 7% relate to story. So this, to my mind, is where we have a problem. We have a disconnect. Everyone is going crazy, prompting for narrative and story, both of which have 0, zero mode, anyone can copy them at scale. And only 7% this very small percentage, are actually focusing on the one thing that is uniquely theirs and cannot be copied or challenged. So that when you say, when you, when you say I’m on a mission, that’s the mission for me to say, Hey guys, wake up. You’re You’re prompting the wrong things in the wrong way. Let’s like, go back and look at story Christian Klepp  07:12 Absolutely, absolutely. It almost sounds like an oxymoron to us to a certain degree, because you’re saying scaling B2B content using AI without losing trust. Because, you know, the narrative that I keep seeing on social media, particularly LinkedIn, is that if people are using AI, there is a bit of a trust factor there. But I think it’s to your point and correct me if I’m wrong, it’s being able to embrace AI and you leveraging it the right way, so it’s not, it’s not, it’s not to replace, it’s not to replace the writers, right, or to replace the Marketers, I hope not. Nick Usborne  07:50 It may replace some. But, yeah, yeah. I mean, I mean, you’re right, and the keyword you mentioned there is trust. I think, I think trust is going to be the most valuable commodity that a company can have in the months and years to come, because people don’t actually don’t if we’re talking about brand. So we’re trying to protect brand with story, right? And brand is something that a lot of companies have spent millions of dollars building and protecting over years or decades and well, one of the things let me come back to trust in a moment. But if I’m looking at brand, and I’m looking at all the stuff goes out there, it either builds brand or it burns brand. And if you burn brand, you lose trust. So if you’re going out with a whole bunch of content that sounds like everyone else is that it’s kind of meh. It’s ordinary. It’s in the middle, which is what AI is really good at. Without the right prompting, it will give you kind of in the middle, mediocre output. So you got to be much better at prompting than just like a, I don’t know, being careless about it, or taking a shortcut, shortcuts, or being lazy about it, because then you get brand drift, and all of a sudden the brand doesn’t sound quite right. And when that happens, you lose trust. And when you lose trust, you lose revenue. I mean, you really do. And people are getting very sensitive to brand of brand trust we saw recently. Was it tracker barrel tried to just change its logo. People freaked out. People freaked out.  Christian Klepp  09:27 It was an awful rebrand, but, yes.  Nick Usborne  09:30 Yeah, but it wasn’t. These weren’t. These weren’t. Saying is, I don’t think the design is up to snuff. It’s like, don’t mess with my tracker barrel. We actually feel very strongly about the brands. Talk to people who are absolute fans of Apple. Doesn’t matter that it costs twice as much, perhaps as not quite as good. It’s Apple. It’s my brand. Don’t mess with my brand. So we’re very sensitive to our loyalty to brands. And in fact, in some sense, it’s brand define us like a football team, a baseball team, in part, we can be defined by the brands that we support, local, Pepsi. You know, it’s like everywhere. So when a company uses AI carelessly at scale and all of a sudden that blog post, it kind of sounds like them, but something’s a tiny bit off. And then that LinkedIn update. Again, yeah, it’s them, but again, it’s, did I say is that the same as they were six months ago? You get the you get these little these little things that sound off, and now you get brand drift. And now you get people feeling uneasy, and the public are sometimes we think we can just make the public believe whatever we want them to believe, or companies to believe whatever we want them to believe, but actually, individuals, in their home lives and in their business lives are very, very sensitive to brand and they’re very, very sensitive to voice and what they hear, and if it’s off, they really don’t like it, and that does translate into loss of trust, and that does directly translate into loss of revenue.  Christian Klepp  11:07 Absolutely. I’m going to move us on to the next set of questions, particularly that one pertaining to key pitfalls that Marketers need to avoid when they’re trying to scale their B2B content using AI without losing trust. So what are some of these key pitfalls they should avoid, and what should they be doing instead? Nick Usborne  11:27 What I’m hearing from inside a number of companies is that there is an inconsistency in how people are using AI and even when systems are in place, that not everyone follows the system. So it’s early days. It is. These are messy times for, you know, working with AI within companies. So I think it’s really important that companies do have some frameworks in place, that people within the organization are using the same tools in the same way, and that they are encouraged to be consistent in what they do. So I’ve heard stories of where companies are set up, you know, they’re using Copilot, or whatever they use, and then some of the manager will walk by someone’s desk, and they’re actually, actually, they’re using Claude on their phone. That person like phone, and it’s like, well, yeah, but no, this is now, you know, you have no control. You also have to get people to do what they ask. I was talking to a Founder the other day. She has a PR (Public Relations) company, plenty of clients, and she’s smart. She’s created custom GPTs for each client. So each custom GPT is trained on with with a kind of database of information on that client and the content, so that you know when you when you ask it to do something else, it’s already has the context and the voice instructions and everything, and you can and it’s great, you get this consistency. But she says, what’s happening is some of her employees come in in the morning, they start work on client X, and they’re using that custom GPT. Then they move on to client Y, but they keep using the original custom GPT and not switching out. So the management has put in the structure in place to be consistent and to output the best, you know, the best content, but the employees are not always playing game, you know, going along with that. So so I do think we’re in a messy period now where companies are not entirely sure how to apply this, how to structure it, what kind of frameworks and guidance to put in place. What guardrails to put in place? Like? Again, I’ve heard horror stories of people grabbing content that should not be shared and putting it into a large language model and then turning that into customer facing or public facing content.  Christian Klepp  13:57 Oh, plagiarism.  Nick Usborne  14:04 So yeah, it is messy. So what I would say is, before you even try to make the best of the use of AI that you do, need to put systems and frameworks in place and educate your staff. So if you want your staff to use AI effectively give them access to training. Don’t just throw them at a tool and say, go for it, because they won’t know what to do with it, or they’ll be able to create stuff, but they won’t be able to create good stuff. So invest in the systems, invest in the frameworks and instructions, and invest in training for the people who are going to be using the tools.  Christian Klepp  14:46 Definitely some relevant points. I wanted to go back to something you said, though, because I think it’s really important. It’s certainly one thing to have the prompts and the guardrails in place and some kind of like, framework and structures. But to your earlier point, how do you enforce that? And I think you gave a really good example about like, if you have a custom GPT, and then they resort to like, using. Um Claude on their personal accounts, and then it’s a little bit like the wild west out there, isn’t it? Nick Usborne  15:06 It is, it is, and it’s and it’s, how do you enforce it? Well, that’s going to be a company by company decision. Like, like the Founder with the PR of the PR company, when she was telling me about how her employees just weren’t doing what they were asked. I was like, part of you is thinking about, why haven’t you kind of cracked down on this? But again, it depends on the company and what options you have when it comes to enforcing stuff like this. But I do think you need to, because then if we circle right back, if you have people who are untrained, and that’s the company’s responsibility to train their employees. If you have people who are untrained and they’re using these tools inconsistently, that is when you far more likely then to see errors for, you know, unforced errors like publishing stuff that you shouldn’t but you’re also going to see more brand drift, because you’re going to get this inconsistency between output and that is a disaster. Like I say, companies have sometimes spent, in a decade, several years in establishing and building a trustworthy brand. And people are very unforgiving. You can, you can lose all that goodwill very, very quickly. So, yeah, training frameworks make sure people are, you know, working within those boundaries, but as a company, it’s your responsibility to help make that happen. Christian Klepp  16:29 Yeah, yeah. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. You kind of brought this up already, but you mentioned that AI can help to scale content, but it can’t replicate your lived story, so please explain what you meant by that, and provide an example. If you can, Nick Usborne  16:46 AI can do a wonderful job in many ways, but you know, it’s never walked down the beach and felt the sand between its toes. It’s read about it. It’s never eaten ice cream. It’s read about that, but it’s never felt it. So that’s what I mean by lived experience. So I think that content and stories that truly resonate with people, you use those kind of touch points, the deeply human side of being alive and like say, I think AI can get close when you prompt it really well, but also there’s a messiness that makes us recognize one another, the little mistakes we make, that’s what makes us human. We are messy, and it’s not very good at being messy. You can ask it to be messy, and it’ll try to figure that out, but it’s really not the same. And like I say, I think people are very sensitive to this kind of nuance and the lived story. It’s the it’s the weird stuff. I think that resonates. So I’ve spent quite a bit of my career doing copywriting for companies, and for a long period, I was doing some freelance, a lot of freelance copywriting. So this is just a little side note, a little side story for you. I used to live on a hobby farm. We had some sheep and pigs and chickens and all that good stuff, the good life. And also had freelance customers. And I went in, and I was and I went, you know, you go out, you feed the animals, you come in, I sit down to work, and my client said, this is just on the phone. This is even before the internet. Client said, Hey, you’re late. I was just out farming the pig and feeding the pigs. And the guy says, what? And this, I hadn’t realized. I never told him that I lived on a farm. He thought somewhere. So anyway, we talked a little bit about the pigs, then we get to work. So the project we’re working on worked out really well, and it won an award. So we fly off to your hometown, Toronto, for the awards ceremony, direct marketing awards ceremony, and he stands up and he says, Thank you very much. Blah, blah, blah. And special thanks to Nick Usborne, the pig farming copywriter. And I’m like, I’m like, in the audience, and I’m thinking, oh, please no. This guy is like, rebranding me constantly in front of all my peers, all my potential clients for next year. Big drama turns out so, so that that’s messy, all right? AI wouldn’t do that, you wouldn’t imagine that it wouldn’t do that. That’s a deeply human moment of my humiliation and him laughing, and everyone slapping me on the back and laughing and asking about my pigs. Turns out, over the next 12 months, I got a few phone calls out of the blue. And I say, Hello, Nick Usborne. I said, Oh, is that Nick Usborne? The cover of James Barber. And I say, why? Yes. And so I actually got work out of that, because it was such a distinct difference from every other copywriter out there. I was the only copywriter who had pigs. So that was just a fun story, but it also speaks to the difference between humans and AI, and it’s a live that’s a lived experience, and it’s a lived anecdote, and I tell the story, and it’s a true story that is really important, I think so, even when we use AI, even when we use it at its best, and it can be really good when you use it well, I think everyone should keep leave space for the human in the loop, as they say, keep that human element in there, big for those stories. So I so I encourage companies to create what I call like a story vault. So there’s the obvious stories, like the Founder story, the origin story, the six original success story, also put in the little quirky stories, like that one I just described, and and make that part of your process. And also go, you know, if you’re creating something with AI and it’s a big project, take the time to go and interview someone, talk to someone, get a human story, put it in just because you’re using AI, doesn’t mean to say that everything you create has to be 100% AI, you can, you can? I do this all the time. I look for it a draft with AI, then I’d go back in and I’ll rewrite the beginning with an anecdote, like the small s story, not a big dramatic story, just a little story. And what it does then is that then connects it with us, because as people, we recognize stories. Story is profound to all of us. I think in every country in the world, parents read their children bedtime stories. It’s something we share in common. It’s how we communicate, and it’s how we recognize our humanity in a sense of like, if you tell me a story, you connect with me, and vice versa. So that’s why I think stories are so important in this world of AI, because if you just go AI, it can get a little cold, and sometimes, as a reader, you don’t quite understand what’s happening and why, but you kind of feel it. There’s an absence. There’s something missing, and that what’s what you feeling is missing is that human touch, that human element, Christian Klepp  21:59 Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, there’s like, there’s like, telltale signs, right? Like em dash being one of them,  Nick Usborne  22:06 em dash Christian Klepp  22:07 Yes, or Yeah. Or it tends to, like, regurgitate the same type of war. It’s like, I find it loves using the word landscape or navigate, you know, things of that nature, right?  Nick Usborne  22:20 Yeah.  Christian Klepp  22:21 Or uses these funny like, you know, the colon or for, for, for titles of episodes, for examples. Nick Usborne  22:30 In titles, even when I give it clear instructions, do not use them. So sometimes, when I create content like that is, I’ll create it in with one model like say, GPT5, and I’ll take it over to flawed, and I’ll say, hey, please edit and clean this up for me, and remove any, you know, repetition or whatever. And sometimes it comes back say, hey, looks pretty clean, pretty good. Other times it’ll change stuff. And then, of course, always I will, you know, I will review. And that’s the other thing that the companies need to think about. Is that, at the moment, content generation at scale within companies, it is a bit like a conveyor belt in a factory of all these boxes flying off the end into the FedEx back of the FedEx van, and without, without any kind of quality control, which, which is actually what you do have with income within you know, if you’re manufacturing, and you do have quality control, and you pick out every 20th item or whatever to make sure that it’s good, a lot of that isn’t happening, that isn’t happening with a lot of people using AI is people don’t even see it. It’s fully automated, like, like a week’s worth of social media is automated, or a month’s work worth, and no one, no human, has read it or reviewed it. It’s just flying out automatically. And that is where at some point you’re inevitably going to have a problem. And it may not be a big problem, it may be lots and lots of small problems, lots of lots of things sounding not quite right, and then all of a sudden, when you’ve got enough little things not sounding right, then you start getting a medium sized problem. Christian Klepp  24:06 Yeah, yeah. No, exactly, exactly. Okay. Now, you talked about it a little bit in the beginning, but talk to us about some of these, these frameworks and these processes that B2B companies can use to help them, you know, organize themselves and reap those benefits of AI without losing trust. Like, what are some of these processes and frameworks? Nick Usborne  24:26 I do some training, and I have done a few rubrics where people can kind of use those to formalize the process. But I think if we talk about story, and I think I already mentioned the idea of each company having a story vault, so be formal and deliberate about it. Everyone can chat about their company’s stories, but if I say to you, hey, is there a folder? Can I can I get a Google folder and find a compilation of all of these stories? And have you graded those stories in terms of how strong and relevant? And they are, and how engaging they might be, or how evocative they might be, and the answer is almost always no, the story is around. But there’s no story vault, and there’s no rubric in place to grade those stories and decide which might be the most appropriate points at which to share those stories. So it’s that, it’s that formalizing the process, and I don’t like being 100% rules based, but I think in the AI world right now, where we are in that kind of messy middle period, I think it’s really important to have some systems in place so that we do have a consistent output, so that when you so that your brand doesn’t suffer from brand drift, and that you don’t make some significant missteps along the way. So somebody within the organization needs to be responsible for this. Maybe it’s the Chief AI Officer, if you have one, or otherwise, somebody in Marketing. So yeah, help people with training, but also help them by giving them some framework, some rubrics and some just a system like, you know, hey, picked up a story from customer service, put it in the story vault, categorize it. Customer service in the story vault says someone else can come back and find it. So it’s not just word of mouth. It’s not accidental. There’s a place where people can go to and then you’re going to do the same with narrative, the things we say. And you have another vault, as it were, and another rubric to to assess voice, how we say it. So it’s just this formalization of the process, and also trying to make sure that people use these systems as you put them in place. So somebody’s got to be walking along behind, behind and sort of, and again, it’s like, I guess, like early days of anything. Not every, not everyone will love the process. Not everyone loves using AI. But it’ll come. It’ll come. People will get in their heart better, not only using AI, but doing it well and following these processes. Christian Klepp  27:02 Okay, fantastic, fantastic. Let me just quickly recap, because I was writing this down. So obviously, having a story vault, grading them if you can, if possible, having systems and frameworks in place, training the team and getting them to familiarize themselves with the systems having a vault for narrative and voice, I think was the other piece. And finally, using, using the systems, once you have them, not letting them collect dust, as it were, right? Nick Usborne  27:32 Like and it is, I get it right now. I get it. It’s hard for a lot of companies, because I think using AI has been very kind of mixed. Some companies have dived straight in. Others are resistant, particularly companies that have compliance issues, financial, medical stuff like that. They’re being very careful, very cautious, and for very good reason. So the rate of adoption is very uneven at the moment, Christian Klepp  28:01 Absolutely, absolutely, all right. Nick you’ve given us plenty here, right? But if we’re going to talk about actionable tips, like something that somebody who’s listening to this conversation that they can take action on right after listening to this interview, what are like some of the top three things you would advise them to do? Nick Usborne  28:17 Well, I guess first is just we’ve talked quite a bit about the story, the story of collecting stories. Just do that because, like I say, I think story is your is your superpower, because it is the only place where you have a moat you don’t in what you say and how you say it. Anyone can copy you, and I can automate copying you through AI as well, but I cannot steal your story, because it’s just not true if, if it’s not my story. So I’d always start there and again, start, start that. Build the vault, select the story and formalize that process. Interview the Founders, if you can, interview early employees, even if they’re retired, interview the first three clients, if you can access them, interview customer service. So often overlooked, customer service in one way or another, so long as that’s not all automated, if there’s still humans in that loop, then have conversations with them. And you can, you can, you can, get transcripts, customer service transcripts, and feed them into AI and say, hey, please analyze and summarize this. What are, what are the most powerful messages we can get from our customer service? Sort of stream of content? Do? Do a sentiment analysis? What are people upset about? What are people happy about? So, yeah, story, I think, is like, I say, it will be your motive, it will be your savior. So first start to formalize that process of getting story and then making sure that it finds a place, somewhere in your automation of, you know, AI generated content, Christian Klepp  29:58 Fantastic, fantastic stuff. Okay, soapbox time. What is the status quo in your area of expertise that you passionately disagree with, and why? Nick Usborne  30:11 I guess again, I’m just going to overlapping. I don’t know what a status quo, but the thing that I passionately disagree with is is every time you see most or a social media title that says top 20 killer, unbeatable prompts.  Christian Klepp  30:31 Oh, yeah. Nick Usborne  30:32 No, no, no, absolutely, just, just no for two reasons. One is that they’re going to be generic. They’re not going to apply to your company in particular, they’ll be generic, and just because they work for someone else does not mean they’re going to work for you. And like I say, we did, I’ve done research on those prompt libraries, and only 7% of them even touch on story. So if I’m writing stories, the most important thing almost all of those prompt libraries are missing out on that. They’re just focusing on narrative and voice and ignoring stories. So not good and and, yeah, so, so that is, I don’t know whether the status quo, but it’s something I keep seeing, and it irritates me when I get it. I understand why they’re doing it, but not helpful for your company. Christian Klepp  31:18 Yeah, you and me both. I mean, those are the those are the pulse they attempt to ignore immediately. I mean, I just skim through it and see the prompts, and I’m like, Nah, but I think it’s human nature too, isn’t it? Like everybody wants to chase the next hack. They want to find that the you know, the shortcut, like the quickest route to get something done. And I get that, but it sometimes does more harm than good. Nick Usborne  31:43 Easy button, but also to be fair and to be a little bit more generous. This is early days, and so people are looking for help. And if it says top 20, this is, oh my goodness, thank you. I’ll take that now. Over time, that’ll change, and people will become a little more sophisticated, I think, but like us, like you. You know, I get it. I understand why those those posts and titles are attractive, and that’s why people create them. But we can do better. We can do better Christian Klepp  32:12 Absolutely, absolutely we can, and we will, hopefully, all right, here comes the bonus question. I’ve been thinking about this one, but Nick Usborne  32:23 I feel strangely nervous. I feel nervous, but it’s a bonus question. Christian Klepp  32:30 Just breathe. Just breathe. I mean, clearly from this conversation, you know, writing is in your blood, right? It’s something that you are passionate about, but it’s also something you’ve done professionally for a long time, I suppose. The bonus question is, if you had an opportunity to meet your favorite writer or author, living or dead, who would it be, and what would you talk about?  Nick Usborne  32:55 One of the people, I really admire, and I’ve already spoken to him, is David Abbott. So David Abbott is a copywriter from from England, and he had an agency called Abbot Mead Vickers, and he was an amazing writer. So I’ve already met him. Who I haven’t met I would like to re write to meet is Susie Henry. She was the copywriter behind a series of advertisements in the UK for an insurance company, and she is just a delightful writer, so I told you, well, no, I hadn’t told you. Maybe I will tell you I’m like, when I started out copywriting, it was at the tail end of the Mad Men period, and creatives were the Kings and Queens, and copywriting was such a craft, it was something to be absolutely proud of, like we’d go through so many drafts, and it was, I was, you know, I was, I was a craftsman, learning from other craftsmen. And David, ever I met, he was in a fantastic writer, just written Susie Henry so good, very, very conversational writer, which was very unusual for that time. So I’d like to meet and talk with her, and I still can’t remember the fiction writer. He’s science fiction writer. I completely lost blank on his name, and I’ve actually met him once briefly, but I’d like to get back to him and chat, but I can’t, because he’s he’s since passed. Christian Klepp  34:19 Oh, I see, I see, I see. All right, well, that’s quite the list of people, but, um, but yeah. No, fantastic. No. Nick, thank you so much for coming on the show and for sharing your experience and expertise with the listeners. And please quick introduction to yourself and how people can get in touch with you. Nick Usborne  34:37 All right. Hi. My name is Nick Usborne, so my business build Story Aligned. So storyaligned.com and what we do there is pretty much, what I’ve talked about today is we train teams within companies to look at story, narrative and voice with a lot of emphasis on story, because that’s where the note is, so if you get a Story Aligned, you’ll find we have a white paper you can download. We have a blog that you can read, the description of the training. So yeah, if this interests you, if you find this an interesting topic, there’s plenty to do when you get there. So Story Aligned, A, L, I, G, N, E, D, yeah. Story Aligned. Christian Klepp  35:21 Fantastic, fantastic. And we’ll be sure to pop that into the show notes so that it’ll be easy for everyone to access. But once again, Nick, thank you.  Nick Usborne  35:28 Sorry, one last thing, if you want to please opening myself up, if you want to just talk to me directly, you can write to me at nick@storyaligned.com. Christian Klepp  35:38 Perfect, perfect. Nick, once again, thanks so much for your time. Take care, stay safe and talk to you soon. Nick Usborne  35:44 Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. It’s been a pleasure. Christian Klepp  35:47 Thank you. Bye for now. You.

PPC Strategies for Small B2B Brands to Beat Big Competitors So many B2B companies and marketing teams waste budget on tactics that don't drive results or support core business goals. Smaller B2B brands often compete against much larger companies while working with less internal bandwidth, tighter budgets, and limited resources. The key being successful lies in their ability to be strategic, efficient, and resourceful despite these obvious constraints. So how can small B2B brands outmaneuver big competitors using PPC and smarter marketing strategies? That's why we're talking to Andy Janaitis (Founder and Chief Strategist, PPC Pitbulls), who shared his experience and PPC strategies for small B2B brands to beat big competitors. During our conversation, Andy discussed the importance of foundational B2B marketing elements like high-converting landing pages, automated email flows, and a well-structured PPC strategy. He highlighted why targeted messaging and measurement are essential to compete more effectively against competitors. Andy also underscored the value of understanding B2B audience pain points, having a well-designed website, and leveraging key metrics such as first-order profitability and customer lifetime growth. He emphasized the importance of transparency and authenticity in B2B marketing strategies and advocated for a data-driven approach that achieves scalable, profitable growth. https://youtu.be/DR6d_dFfnVI Topics discussed in episode: [03:06] The Small Brand Advantage: Why being smaller allows for more targeted messaging that resonates better than broad, big-brand ads. [05:05] Avoid the Testing Trap: Why splitting a small budget across too many creative tests leads to insufficient data and wasted spend. [07:14] Winning the Auction: How the real-time ad auction rewards quality and specificity, allowing you to pay less than big brands for premium placements. [09:50] The Conversion Ecosystem: The critical role of landing pages and automated email flows in nurturing leads who aren’t ready to buy yet. [14:58] 5 Essentials for Ad Readiness: A checklist of what you need (from audience understanding to goal clarity) before launching your first campaign. [21:55] AI in PPC: How AI-driven automation has powered platforms for years and where it is heading next. [25:34] Better Metrics: Why you should look past ROAS and focus on first-order profitability and customer lifetime growth. Companies and links mentioned: Andy Janaitis on LinkedIn  PPC Pitbulls  Transcript Andy Janaitis, Christian Klepp Andy Janaitis  00:00 If you’re sending people to a landing page that’s not built to convert, if it doesn’t have the social proof that gives somebody the trust in your product or your service, you may be able to get folks to your site, but they’re not ultimately going to purchase for you, and that’s just one other component. Something else we see all the time is email flows, so making sure that you have automated welcome flows, that if they don’t purchase the first time they’re on your site, they have a lower value touch point, whether it be downloading a free lead magnet or something like that, that brings them into your ecosystem and allows you to start nurturing the relationship over time. Those are two things that we see all the time, landing pages and email flows that are fundamentals that get overlooked and people say, hey, the ads aren’t working, you know, I gotta, you know, try more creative. I gotta keep tweaking. I gotta change, you know, the different structure that some YouTube Guru told me that I need to be running, when in reality, it’s like, no, there’s some key fundamentals that you’ve got to get right about your business first. And getting those things right is going to have 100 times more impact than tweaking little bits of the creative here and there. Christian Klepp  01:04 So many B2B companies and their marketing teams waste money on marketing that doesn’t match their business goals. They go up against much larger competitors, while also having to contend with limited budgets, resources and bandwidth. So how can smaller B2B brands outsmart their biggest counterparts and win? Welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers on the Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp, today, I’ll be talking to Andy Janaitis, who will be answering this question. He’s the Founder and Chief Strategist of PPC Pitbulls, a boutique digital marketing agency that helps B2B businesses grow past seven figures through leveraging Google and Meta ads. Tune in to find out more about what the speed to be Marketers Mission is. All right, and off we go. Mr. Andy Janaitis, welcome to the show, sir. Andy Janaitis  01:50 Thanks for having me, Christian. Christian Klepp  01:51 Really enjoyed our pre-interview conversation, Andy. We talked about a lot of things that range from B2B Marketing to family and hobbies and the different cities that we’re living in, and what have you. But I am really looking forward to this conversation, because it’s something that I think a lot of people in the B2B Marketing world can relate to. And if they can’t relate, they should all right, so let’s dive right in, because I think this is going to be a really interesting conversation, right? Andy Janaitis  02:19 Definitely. Christian Klepp  02:20 Okay. So Andy, you’re on a Mission to help scale independent B2B brands with data driven Google and Meta ads. But for this conversation, I’d like to zero in on the topic of how smaller B2B brands can outsmart the bigger competitors by being strategic with PPC. If we’re going to use military terms, it almost sounds like you have to learn how to use Guerrilla warfare instead of conventional war tactics, right? So I’m going to kick-off the conversation with two questions, and I’m happy to repeat them all right? So the first question is, what is it about PPC or Pay Per Click that you wish more people understood? And the second question is, why do you think small brands fail when they try to copy big brand ad strategies? Andy Janaitis  03:06 There’s a lot, a lot there to unpack, and I think, you know, there’s, I think you touched on it there, but there’s a lot of anxiety among small brands. We work with Founders and Marketing Directors of these independent brands, and oftentimes there’s a fear of a Google Ads or Meta ads, because they say, Hey, there’s some big competitors out there in my space that are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars a month. And if I’ve got my little budget, if I’m trying to spend $5 or $10,000 a month, how do I have any chance of competing with them? You know, surely they’re going to outbid me on every single keyword, every single ad placement that I could be in, and what gets missed there is that you actually do have a big advantage in that being smaller. Your product probably has a smaller niche than you think, because you’re not distributed to everybody, you’re speaking to a smaller audience, which allows you to be much more targeted in your messaging. So in that way, where you might have some of these bigger brands that are, of course, way out investing, you that investment is being spread across so many different audiences and so many different placements, whereas you have the ability to say, Hey, I’ve got a limited budget. Let me only target, you know, the most likely people to purchase from me, and the people who are, you know, who I’m most likely to resonate with, and then give them a message that really speaks directly to them. So I think that’s the first and foremost thing to remember, is that you can take this, you know, supposedly disadvantage, and really turn it into an advantage when you when you focus in on, you know, who is your smallest, tightest, ideal client, that that you can target and speak to. I think that’s really, really important and gets missed and to your second question around, you know, the big brand tactics. I think a lot of times people see these in Instagram reels, LinkedIn posts that come up with a lot of different strategies that could work well, but are only going to work well on those larger budgets. So one great example of this. A lot of times I see people talking about creative testing and talking about needing we tested across 100 different assets, talk about, you know, let’s use AI so that we have the model in this particular influencer ad. You know, we can change the hair color and the shirt color and all these different combinations and test all these different things. The problem with that is, if you try that with a much smaller budget, you’re necessarily going to split, you know, the budget that many different ways. So say you run 100 different combinations, 100 different messages targets, you’re splitting your budget that many different ways, and you’re not building up enough data about any one of those individual combinations to make a good decision. So I always kind of tell people focus on the fundamentals. First worry about your top level messaging. What is it that really matters most and makes your product different, you know, and your really key differentiators to your to your most ideal audience, forget about, you know, button colors, or, you know, with these smaller budgets, don’t worry about testing. You know, what’s the color of the shirt that the model is wearing kind of thing, you know, you’ll have time to test those things in the future. But, you know, I think people get too caught up in those, those types of practices that, you know, big brands are spending a lot of time and money on and forget about, you know, the fundamentals themselves. Christian Klepp  06:35 Absolutely, absolutely. You brought up some really great points. I like to go back to like, two of them that you mentioned, I think the first one, short of getting too granular or getting too in the weeds, but you brought up something that I thought was really important to discuss further about, like the worry or the concern the Marketers have that people are gonna outbid us for those, for those keyboards, For example, talk us through, if you can, even from a top level perspective, how does a small B2B Company navigate through that? Because it sounds like it can. It can be an exercise that could potentially become very complex. Andy Janaitis  07:14 And the nice thing about this is it’s all automated these days. So, you know, realistically, when you are putting, you know, saying, hey, I want to run an Ad, whether it be on Google or on Meta. What’s happening is a real time auction where they’re saying, Hey, there’s this particular placement or this particular search, in the case of Google, so anybody who could possibly run an Ad on that, we’re going to let them, you know, put their ad forth and how much they’re willing to bid on it, and see, you know, who kind of gets in the top position and gets to show their ad. Now the thing that’s interesting there is it’s not based only on how much you’re about to pay for the ad. It’s also based on the quality of the ad, or how good of a match the ad is for that particular person or that particular search that’s coming in. And that’s where your ad can be more targeted, can be a higher quality ad, because it’s more specific. So you actually are going to be paying a little bit less for that placement than even some of these really big brands that are necessarily speaking a little bit broader language and not as niche down of a message. So that’s one, one big way. The other big thing is, as I mentioned, it’s in real time on every single on every single potential ad placement, or every potential search. So what that means is you probably aren’t going to compete with the big guys across all of the searches they’re running, but you don’t have to, because you may only show up, you know, you may only overlap in 5% of the placement. So where their budgets are going out there to every single potential placement or search that they could show up for, you only need to compete with them in that small, small percentage that is most relevant to your specific audience. Christian Klepp  08:55 Okay, fantastic, fantastic. Okay, second follow up question, and again, got to be careful, because we could potentially go down the deep rabbit hole with this one. But one thing that we all know about PPC is that there’s a lot behind it. And what I mean by that is, it shouldn’t be viewed as this one and done exercise. There’s a there’s a bit of an ecosystem behind it. And what I mean by that is, if somebody goes and sees the ad on Google or Meta and clicks on it, well, that clicks got to redirect people somewhere, right, be that a landing page or a website or whatnot, what’s on? What’s on the co you know, what kind of content are we talking about? What kind of CTA are we talking about? Walk us through that about why, why is it so important for B2B Marketers to understand that PPC is a component in this, this ecosystem? Andy Janaitis  09:50 That’s so, so important, and it’s, it’s important, especially as we talk about, you know, smaller brands, smaller budgets. You know, in that $10,000 to. $20,000 ad spend range. What we find is that, first of all, as you mentioned, it’s a holistic ecosystem. So, yeah, the ads are one part, and you got to make sure that you’ve got your ad copy, you’ve got your placements, you’ve got your you know, your strategy in the ad platforms down. But as you mentioned, if you’re sending people to a landing page that’s not built to convert, if it doesn’t have the social proof that gives somebody the trust in your product or your service. They’re not you may be able to get folks to your site, but they’re not ultimately going to purchase for you. And that’s just one other component. Something else we see all the time is email flows, so making sure that you have automated welcome flows, that if they don’t purchase the first time they’re on your site, they have a lower value touch point, whether it be downloading a free lead magnet or something like that, that brings them into your ecosystem and allows you to start nurturing the relationship over time. Those are two things that we see all the time, landing pages and email flows that are fundamentals that get overlooked. And people say, you know, hey, the ads aren’t working. You know, I gotta, you know, try more creative. I gotta, I gotta keep tweaking. I gotta change. You know, the the different structure that some YouTube Guru told me that I need to be running, when, in reality, it’s like, no, there’s some key fundamentals that you’ve got to get right about your business first. And getting those things right is going to have, you know, 100 times more impact than tweaking little bits of the creative here and there. Christian Klepp  11:26 You brought up one word that I think is worth repeating. It’s nurturing, right? Like, and I think that gets, um, that gets ignored or overlooked a lot in B2B, especially like, when, when the organization’s very sales driven. So it’s all about like, volume, volume, volume, right? Like we gotta, like, I mean, just to use the the old adage of like, you know, gonna hit that phone right, or pound the pavement and just get those numbers up right? But at the end of the day, especially if we’re talking about B2B, not everybody is ready to buy at the first contact. In fact, that would, I would almost go as far as to say, like, 97%, 98% of the time, they’re not, not, they’re not in buying mode, right? They’re probably still in an investigative mode. They’re still looking at what the options are out there. They’re probably doing their own research. That’s how they have landed on those ads. So it’s to your point. It’s so important to like, nurture that at that that lead rather in a non-pushy, non-intrusive way that helps to build that trust, to give them that confidence that this is, in fact, the right company that we should be perhaps having a conversation with, right? Andy Janaitis  12:33 Exactly, yeah, and I think sometimes people spend so much time on their messaging and their differentiators, and then they forget to tell their customers that, you know, they spent all this time working through what exactly it is that made their business better than the competitor. But if you don’t take the time to, you know, set up a welcome email flow it or, you know, build a presence on build an organic presence on Google, on Instagram or Facebook, you’re not necessarily getting that message out and giving people a chance to get to know you and fall in love with your brand. So I think that’s so, so important and often overlooked. Christian Klepp  13:12 Absolutely, absolutely. You brought up some of these already, but talk to us about some of these key pitfalls that Marketing Teams should be avoiding when it comes to PPC, and what should they be doing instead? Andy Janaitis  13:24 So we talked about a few of them. You know, some of the fundamentals that exist outside of the ad ecosystem. But one pitfall that I really want to focus on, that that is really closely tied to the ad ecosystem is measurement. So making sure that once somebody hit your site, you understand where they came from and ultimately what they did so that might be filling out a lead form. That might be purchasing a product, if you’re in kind of the E-commerce space, might be adding a product to their cart. You’ve got to make sure that you’re measuring all those independent events for two purposes, one, passing that data back to a Google or a Meta is the only way that those platforms can optimize and continue to get you better and better results. And two, you need to have that data to be able to report on and understand where your ad dollars are going and whether they’re working or not. That’s how you make the decision of, should I be putting more budget into Google or into Meta or hey, are neither of them working? And I got to try something totally different that’s often overlooked. We see clients coming to us that have spent untold amounts of money, and they’re not really even sure how it worked because they weren’t measuring it in the first place. So they’re just basing it on getting the cheapest clicks possible and not focusing on, you know, really optimizing for conversion? Christian Klepp  14:44 Yeah, no, absolutely. Those are, those are some very important points. In our last conversation, you talked about these five essentials that B2B brands need to have before they run their first ad campaign. Can you talk to us about that? Andy Janaitis  14:58 Yeah, definitely. I. So yeah, I’ll kind of walk through, and I don’t know if we’ll end up on four or six, but we’ll shoot for five here. The number one thing as you’re going through or selling online, obviously, you need to have an understanding of who your audience is and who you’re going to be targeting from that and what comes out of that is having an understanding of what are the main pain points that they have, and making sure that you’re speaking to those on a really well designed website that’s designed for, I say, designed for conversion, but what I mean by that is it helps guide somebody through that buyer’s journey, taking them from the point of just getting to know your brand to understanding what you do, to understanding how you solve their pain points, and then some social proof about why you’re better than others. So a you know, understanding your audience, having a well developed website that speaks to the audience, and importantly, speaks to the real symptoms and pain points that they’re dealing with, and how you can help solve them. Number three, I would say, is measurement. That’s, that’s a big piece that, you know, we just talked about in depth, but making sure you’re understanding once somebody hits the site, what are they, you know, what are they doing? Where are they going? What pages are they viewing? Do they ultimately fill out a lead form? Do they ultimately, you know, add the product to their cart and then leave? You’ve got to be able to measure what’s happening once they hit the site. Beyond that, I would say maybe, maybe item number four will group together a lot of those other fundamentals. So things that even outside of the website, things like a nurture flow and email, a presence on social, these are all so, so important, and even if you’re focused on paid ads running to a website to get a conversion, all of these other things are going to help that process. It’s a holistic marketing process, because we know today that people see you across a number of channels. It’s not that they’re only going to see your ad, come to your website, make a decision and buy. They’re going to, you know, hopefully see your ad later on, maybe see an organic post that you made on your socials. Maybe they bump into you at a trade show or a conference, and ultimately get to your website, make the decision there so making sure that those other fundamentals, like a an email nurture flow or a good organic social present are available, and then number five, and I think this is most important. And what I see people get wrong all the time is, understand your goals. So people will say, hey, I need to run ads. I want to run ads because I want more leads. Ultimately, you know, obviously we can, can run ads, and that could be an outcome. But if you’re not able to say, you know, what type of leads do you want, why are you not getting enough leads today? What’s your capacity? How many leads can you handle? You know, what type of behaviors are you trying to get more of, whether it be leads versus, you know, sales versus, you know, people buying a purchase or even downloading a lead magnet so that we can begin the nurture process. These are all viable, viable directions to go. And if you’re not thinking through specifically for your business, what’s the very specific goal that you that you have, and more importantly, what are the constraints you have? What’s your budget? What how much creative do you have available? Do you have a team on staff that can create more creative or work with your marketing strategy, understanding the goals and the constraints? A lot of people get caught up and just say, Hey, I got to run some ads and go for it. I want more revenue, when, in reality, there’s all these different nuances to it, and you really need to know what your specific goal is. Christian Klepp  18:39 Yeah, no, no, that’s great stuff. So let me just quickly recap for the benefit of the listeners, right? So you were talking about understand who the audience is, which is, which is imperative. I mean, you know, you almost shouldn’t start anything without knowing that, right? The second one was a well developed website, and I’ve got a follow up question for you on that one. Third one is measurement. So metrics like, know what to measure, and we will have a separate question about metrics later on in the conversation. Four is nurture, flow and email and organic and a presence on social. And the last one is understanding your goals, right? Like, what is it you want to achieve with this? Right? So on the topic of websites, when you say, well, developed website, I’m I have this feeling that you’re not referring to it’s got to be this incredibly expensive and complex website. That’s not what you’re talking about, right? Andy Janaitis  19:34 No and oftentimes, the simpler it is, the better it’s going to convert. So I think that’s really important what we think about. And I think the way I think of it is, in the old days, you might have a salesperson who’s going to get in front of a potential lead and then help kind of, you know, work through the objections they might have. So hey, you know, I’m not sure this might be a little too expensive for me. Or, Hey, I’m not sure if you know, you really serve people in my niche. Or if you know you you work with somebody, somebody different. I don’t know that this is a great fit for me. And the salesperson would have all the answers, right? They would say, hey, if this is their objection, this is how we answer that. If this is their objection, this is how we answer that. This is how we tell them about how we solve their problems. In today’s day and age, you may still have some sales people, but your website needs to do a lot of that work itself. So that’s what we need to think through is, what are all the things that a buyer needs to know before they’re ready to make that purchase and make sure that we’re putting that in front of them in a way that’s super easy to understand. A confused buyer is not a buyer. There’s a better way to use that statement. I’m sure you’ve probably heard that somebody, if they find confusion, they’re not going to be ultimately making a purchase with you. So make sure it’s really, really clear what is your product or service, how does it solve the customer’s problem? And hopefully some social proof too, and making sure that there’s some confidence that you’ve solved this problem for other people, like the potential buyer. Christian Klepp  20:57 And when you say social proof, you’re, of course, referring to things like in the form of case studies, testimonials, maybe even reviews on like platforms like Clutch and the like. Andy Janaitis  21:07 Exactly. All of those are great. You know, if you have a partner badge that, hey, you’ve done good work, or you’re certified to do particular work, that could be another one. If you’ve been featured in particular publications, that can be another one. But yeah, ultimately, all of these different ways that help give confidence that you can do the job. Christian Klepp  21:24 Fantastic, fantastic. You kind of scratch the surface a little bit in the beginning of the conversation, but PPC and AI, right? I mean, you kind of, you kind of cannot avoid this topic, right? Because it permeates across the entire marketing spectrum. But you know, from your perspective and in your experience, to what degree do you find AI harmful and helpful when it comes to PPC? Andy Janaitis  21:55 So I would say, on kind of the helpful side, and this is something that’s what’s interesting is we think of AI, you know, in the last, say, three years since chatGPT released, was it three? Five was the first, you know, kind of big milestone, breaking model where people said, Oh my gosh, this is, you know, this can really do a lot of, you know, can sound like a real human kind of thing. But long before that, AI has been implemented in these platforms, in Google and Meta, and for probably the last 10 years, we’ve been moving in the direction of more automation, more AI. So earlier, we talked about that ad auction, where every single time a keyword is searched or a placement pops up on Facebook or Instagram, you have to have a particular bid of how much you’re willing to spend to get your ad there. These days, you’re not putting any of those bids in manually. You’re just telling Meta or Google, hey, here’s the budget I want, and here’s the data coming from my website to let people know if they’re purchasing or filling out a lead form or not. And now Google or Meta, go out there and run with it. You know, go ahead and optimize with the ad assets that I’ve given you and the budget that I’ve given you. Go ahead and put me wherever you need to put me in order to get the most possible, you know, results, goals that that you can and that’s all AI driven. Then it’s been that way for a long time. We’ve been moving in that kind of direction. So that’s on the helpful side. That’s where, you know, AI is really driving, driving success for us. On the hurtful side. You know, you hear a lot of times people talking about, you know, now, especially in Google, when somebody makes a search, they’re getting the information. They’re getting an answer right up front. Or maybe they’re not even going to Google. Maybe they’re in ChatGPT or Perplexity, so, Christian Klepp  23:44 It’s a summary at the top right? Yeah. Andy Janaitis  23:47 Exactly, yeah. So they don’t even need to come to your website. From a PPC perspective, there’s not that click that you can go ahead and bid on and put your ad in front of, and that can be a concern, honestly, from a services and product perspective, I find that to be a little bit less of an issue. It’s definitely more of an issue for publishers. So if you have an information content kind of business that’s really harmful for you right now, because, you know, people are getting that information without ever having to make the click onto your website. But ultimately, if somebody is going to want to hire you for your services or buy one of your products, they still have to click through at some point. They’re not necessarily making that purchase, or they’re definitely not making that purchase out of the Google results summary. That being said, the other kind of big thing, and why I’m not super, super concerned about that development, is that whether it be on chatGPT or on Google, they really haven’t started monetizing yet, and that’s where I think you’re still going to see ads up in that area, we know that you’re going to be seeing ads up there. In fact, chatGPT is already hiring up and staffing up an ad organization, so it’s just going to be one more platform, one more area where you can run ads and get in. Front of your ideal customers. Because ultimately, you know, a subscription model can work to a degree, but you know, these companies, from an economic basis, need to have ads in order to kind of fund the type of growth that they that they need to see over the coming years. Christian Klepp  25:15 Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely, all right, previously, like when we talked about this, you mentioned this one thing, right? Kind of sounds like a song, right? Like this one metric that every B2B brand must know before scaling. So what is it? And why do you think B2B brands should have it? Andy Janaitis  25:35 So I’ll maybe take a little bit of a cop out. And they’re a couple different metrics. You know, we, especially on the e-commerce side, we look at four key metrics. One of the people get caught up when they’re thinking about on in the PPC world, a lot of times, people talk about ROAs (Return On Ad Spend) or CPA (Cost Per Acquisition/Action). So ROAs would be the amount of revenue that you’re getting in for every ad dollar your spend return on ad spend and CPA would be cost per action, or essentially, you know, if somebody is looking to get lead forms filled out, how many dollars of ad spend are you putting in for every lead form that you’re getting filled out? And those can be important metrics, but they abstract away a lot of important nuance, and it’s very possible to look good in those metrics and still not make a ton of money. So we have these four key metrics, especially on the e-commerce side, that we focus in on, and it’s things like first order profitability. So yeah, your ROAs may be high, but if it’s a lot of people making repeat purchases, you may still be spending too much money to acquire that that first customer so first order profitability is going to be the first time somebody makes a purchase. Are you profitable? Or are you not? You know that that one individual purchase even before you start to look at customer lifetime growth. Is it profitable for you? Another key metric that we look at is that customer lifetime growth. So okay, perfect. You’ve profitably gotten that first purchase, but are you building enough customer lifetime value so that over time it’s going to pay off what you had to put in to acquire that customer in the first place. Another key one that really applies, whether it be e-commerce or elsewhere, is the percentage of your revenue, the percentage of your leads that are coming from organic channels versus paid channels. So we love to focus on the paid side. We help people find scalable, profitable results in the paid channels, but if you’re too over indexed in those, if you’re getting too much of your revenue or your leads from paid channels, that tells you that you’re probably paying a little bit too much for it. And you need to develop that organic you know, from your your social from people just finding you via regular old Google search, making sure that you’re not over indexed towards the paid channel, if you want to be able to scale that profitably. Christian Klepp  28:06 Okay, okay, well, there’s some really great points, and I’m glad that you pointed that out about like, you know how everybody is very obsessed with ROAs and CPA, but there are actually, in fact, other metrics that they really should be paying more attention to, or that need, that deserve some of that limelight as well. Right? Andy Janaitis  28:23 Exactly. Christian Klepp  28:24 Fantastic. So we get to the point in the conversation, my friend, where we’re talking about actionable tips, and you’ve given us a ton already within these past like, 30 minutes. But just imagine there’s a B2B Marketer out there that’s listening to this conversation between you and I, and there are three to five things that you can tell them. You know, you can take action on this right now, right after listening to this conversation, what would those things be? Andy Janaitis  28:48 Yeah. So first and foremost, we talked about your measurement. So the action there is use GA for Google Analytics. If you don’t have Google Analytics installed on your website already. Make sure you go ahead and get that installed. It’s a free tool. There’s some other paid tools that are better in certain ways. But you know, for my money, as you’re getting started out, Google Analytics is absolutely table stakes. You’ve got to have that installed on your site and set up properly to measure the behavior of what’s what’s happening on your site. If we’re talking PPC, similar to that, is making sure that everything is technically configured correctly, so that when somebody makes executes a behavior, makes a purchase, fills out a lead form, that data is getting back to, you know, either Google or Meta. So those are, you know, kind of the some of the key things that you got to do right out the gate and GA for Google Analytics. It’s a free tool, so there’s no, really no excuse not to have that set up. The other thing that I think is a first step that a lot of folks really got to got to figure out is getting crystal clear on who your customer is, what their main pain point that you can solve is. Is, and then ultimately, what’s your goal for for ads. So those kind of three, three components all tied together a lot of times. You know, we find people that are either, hey, we’re just looking for leads, but they can’t really give a good answer on, you know, who their customers or what type of leads would be a good lead for them. Or, you know, maybe they they’re really tight on who their customer is. And they say, Hey, we just, we just got to run some ads, but understanding kind of where ads fit into overall ecosystem. How are you doing organically? How do you close the leads once you get them you know? How often do people who make that first purchase end up coming back and making an additional purchase? Make sure you understand what you’re actually trying to get out of the ads. I think that’s probably the number one thing, and you can’t do that without the measurement piece that we that we discussed earlier. But I would really, you know, kind of start from a measurement component. Make sure you understand what’s happening when folks at your site, and then, before you spend $1 in paid ads, make sure you understand what you’re trying to get out of those paid ads and what gap in your marketing, you’re trying to solve. Christian Klepp  31:02 Absolutely, and it’s such a dangerous mindset to have that, you know, we just want to quickly do this right, and we just want to, like, generate some quick leads so we can show some numbers. But if you, you know, to your point, and you’ve raised it a couple of times in this conversation, if you don’t do this heavy lifting up front with understanding who your target audience is and understanding what the actual goals of this exercise are, then all of this is gonna go like, down the drain at some point, right? I mean, like, I’ll have to tell you, this is your this is your area of expertise. But if you don’t know what you’re doing with paid ads, that budgets gonna, like, evaporate fairly quickly. Andy Janaitis  31:40 Exactly, yeah. Christian Klepp  31:42 We’re gonna move on to the soapbox question. I’m gonna say I was, I was, I was trying to think about, well, how to describe this, but, yeah, that’s the best description. What is the status quo in your area of expertise that you passionately disagree with, and why? Andy Janaitis  32:02 That’s a great question. I think we talked about some of the individual components earlier. You know, folks kind of listening to Gurus, kind of coming we still to this day, you know, have clients, or prospective clients coming in and say, Hey, I saw this YouTube video that told me I’ve got to do this. And it’s, you know, just bad advice for them kind of thing, you know, where they didn’t really, you know, get that good advice and take it one step further to see how that fits for their specific business. I think that happens all too often. The other big thing that we, we see, especially in marketing in general, I think there’s a lot of suspicion of, you know, marketing, you know, we people are really, really looking for authenticity these days. And I think there’s a fear that, you know, marketing as an industry is all about telling lies or not giving, you know, an authentic answer, trying to trick somebody into buying a product or a service. And a lot of that, you know, it’s kind of our own fault, honestly. You know, there’s a lot of Gurus out there that give the industry a bad name, when in reality, you know, all of this is about you should have a valuable product or a valuable service, and what we’re doing, you know, whether it be via paid ads or organic or you know those email nurture flows is just educating The customer on how your product authentically solves their specific pain points. So I think that’s, you know, something I would really like to kind of dispel that myth that marketing agencies say, you know, are not able to, are all charlatans and not able to give you good, authentic support. You know, we like to kind of think of it almost like when you bring your car to a mechanic, that old trusted mechanic thing, right? You don’t know what’s going on under the hood. You don’t know what that clunking sound is. So you better find a mechanic that you can trust to shoot it to you straight, not sell you something you don’t need. We like to think of ourselves like that in the marketing world, you know, in a world where there’s a lot of suspicion of the practitioners, you know, making sure that you can find somebody who is transparent and that you can trust to tell you the truth, I think that’s, you know, there’s a lot of good people out there and a lot of a lot of good businesses, agencies out there, you know, I’d like to kind of, you know, dispel that myth that there isn’t, you know, a trustworthy marketing agency that can really help you, guide your business to success, and help you find, you know, find the right answers for you, not what’s just profitable for the agency. Christian Klepp  34:33 This is gonna sound so biased coming from me, but yes, I agree with you. There are some good Marketers out there, right? I mean, we have to believe that too, because, you know, not, not all of us are, are out there to, like, just, you know, make some quick profit. In fact, like the way that I work with my clients, I always say up front, honesty and transparency. Andy Janaitis  34:52 Exactly. Christian Klepp  34:53 You know. And every time they asked me for for advice and or what I would do in this situation, I always start. Answer by saying full transparency, right? This is how I would do it, or I wouldn’t recommend you do this right now, because it’s not a good user for your budget, for example, right? And we and we know that, and we know that there are agencies out there that wouldn’t do that, right? They won’t say that, right? They’ll just say, oh, yeah, absolutely, go do it. Okay? But those relationships don’t tend to last very long in my experience. Okay, so here comes the bonus question, and we talked a little bit about this before I hit record. But rumor has it that you started your agency three months before your first child was born. So the question is, what important lesson to that experience teach you, both personally and professionally, like, like, it was almost like there was, there were two things coming into this world at that point in time as a war, right? Andy Janaitis  35:51 Yeah, it’s a great question. And certainly there’s been, you know, a lot that I’ve learned from, you know, both the business and and the parenting journeys, you know, I think kind of the crossover there, you know, we think about, like, the time component, right? You know, there’s only so many hours in the day. One big thing is, it definitely gives you perspective. You know, we always think about, you know, the perspective, hey, family matters the most and kind of what it means to, you know, now I know what’s really important, as opposed to getting worried or bent out of shape about, you know, some of the little things. But I think that really applies to the whole, you know, the holistic person, and, you know, the whole lifestyle, whether it be, you know, how we spend time with family or how we spend time, you know, working on the business and growing the business, it really forces you, because you have a limited time horizon, you know, forces you to kind of really focus in on what’s most important and not waste your time on, you know, either spending time on the things that aren’t going to be impactful or don’t matter so much, and especially not wasting your worry and your anxiety on, you know, things that are going to solve themselves and you really don’t need to be worried about. Christian Klepp  37:04 And just my two cents worth, because we kind of both started our businesses around the same time, but it kind of teaches you to prioritize and manage your time a little bit better. Not that we didn’t know how to manage our time previously, but it’s a different type of time management, right? Like, time management to take care of the family and time management to, like, run the business. Right? Andy Janaitis  37:26 Exactly. Yep. Christian Klepp  37:28 Yeah. No. Fantastic, fantastic. Andy, this has been such a great conversation. I really enjoyed it. Thanks so much for coming on and for sharing your experience and expertise with the listeners. Please. Quick intro to yourself and how folks out there can get in touch with you. Andy Janaitis  37:43 Yeah, so we’re at ppcpitbulls.com at PPC Pitbulls. We’re really focused on helping e-commerce Directors, Marketing Directors, and just small businesses in general, figure out, you know, kind of demystify the world of digital marketing, and go from confused, not knowing where the next dollars are going to come in, to having a really good, stable strategy, and, you know, confidence in, you know, a strategy for profitable growth. So if you want to learn more, come check us out. We’ll actually have a special page, ppcpitbulls.com/mission, and that will be for listeners of this particular podcast. I talked about those four key metrics that we really care about. We’ve got that all put down in kind of a self guide that you can go through. We call it our paid ads reality checklist you can go through step by step. And I’ll show you exactly how to calculate each one of those metrics and how to analyze it on the back end. If that’s too much for you, can always just book a time with me too. I love sitting down with and meeting new small businesses, learning about your niche and you know, talking about where you can go next with your digital marketing. Christian Klepp  38:52 Fantastic, fantastic. So once again, Andy, thanks so much for coming on. Take care, stay safe and talk to you soon. Andy Janaitis  38:59 Talk to you soon. Thanks for having me.

Why B2B Lead Qualification Fails and How to Fix It  Traffic is cheap, but qualified B2B sales conversions are not. Too many CMOs in the B2B space are watching brilliant creative go to waste at the top of the marketing funnel because what's passing through as a “qualified lead” often isn't really qualified. How can B2B marketers identify where the real lead qualification bottleneck is? Why is rethinking how MQLs are defined, scored, and routed one the most strategic fixes a CMO can make to improve pipeline performance? That's why we're talking to Gabe Lullo (CEO, Alleyoop), who shared some insights around why B2B lead qualification fails and how to fix it at the top of the funnel. During our discussion, Gabe challenged the common misconception that poor lead quality is the issue when sales aren't closing. Instead, he emphasized the importance of a clearly-defined Ideal Customer Profile (ICP), a strong product-market fit, and a well-mapped B2B sales journey. Gabe also stressed the need for A/B testing, identifying and resolving funnel bottlenecks, and using data-driven decision-making to improve lead conversion rates. He underscored the value of nurturing leads and cautioned B2B marketers against dismissing traditional marketing channels without rigorous testing. https://youtu.be/KXVmywNsfP0 Topics discussed in episode: [02:36] Why top-of-funnel lead qualification breaks down in B2B. [16:37] How to define and operationalize your Ideal Customer Profile (ICP). [12:17] When MQLs hurt more than they help, and how to fix them. [26:14] How A/B testing and data-driven decisions improve lead conversion. [27:53] Why lead nurturing is critical to long sales cycles. [34:05] When to test (not abandon) traditional B2B marketing channels. Companies and links mentioned: Gabe Lullo on LinkedIn  Alleyoop  ZoomInfo  Salesloft  Adobe  Transcript SPEAKERS Gabe Lullo, Christian Klepp Gabe Lullo  00:00 So we’re doing top of funnel activities, and then we’re sending leads over. The sales team takes them, and then what we find, a lot, we hear this all the time, is leads aren’t closing. And what’s interesting is that it was never a lead problem. It was more of a, you know, seller problem. I don’t mean to put blame on it, but companies come to us saying, hey, my sellers are saying we don’t have enough leads, we don’t have better leads, we don’t have good leads, and they’re the ones complaining about the lead. So they come to us to fix the lead problem. We fix the lead problem, but it doesn’t fix the revenue problem. It’s still not closing. So what is it? Christian Klepp  00:30 Traffic is cheap, but conversion is not too many CMOs (Chief Marketing Officer) are watching brilliant, creative go to waste at the top of the funnel, because what’s passing through as qualified just isn’t so how can you identify where the real bottleneck is, and why is rethinking how MQLs (Marketing Qualified Leads) are defined and scored the single most strategic fix? A CMO can make welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers on the Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp. Today, I’ll be talking to Gabe Lullo, who will be answering these questions. He’s the CEO of Alleyoop, a sales development agency working with industry giants such as ZoomInfo, Salesloft and Adobe. Tune in to find out more about what this B2B Marketers Mission is, and off we go. Mr. Gabe Lullo, welcome to the show, sir. Gabe Lullo  01:17 Christian. Thank you so much. First off, I’m a huge fan of yours, so is my team, and we just appreciate all that you do for the industry. And I’m so excited to be here. Thanks for the invite. Christian Klepp  01:28 Wow, wow. Thank you. Thank you so much. Right off the gate with the praise, thank you, sir. Gabe Lullo  01:33 Well, you deserve it, man, you’re the best. What do you do. I love it. I love your show, and I love being a part of that. Christian Klepp  01:38 I appreciate that. I appreciate that. You know, we really had an awesome, like, pre-interview conversation. I’m gonna say, like, you know, talking about coming up to Toronto and Buffalo and what have you. And I’m really looking forward to this conversation, Gabe, because, man, you know, what? As much as some Marketers probably don’t want to hear this. It’s an, I think this is an absolutely necessary conversation to have. Right this topic that we’re going to talk about, and I will not keep the audience in suspense for too long. I’m just going to jump into the first question, if you don’t mind. Gabe Lullo  02:09 Yeah, no problem. Let’s get right into it. Christian Klepp  02:11 All right, so Gabe, you’re on a mission to provide the ultimate assist to your clients by setting them up for success. So for this conversation, let’s zero in on the following topic of how B2B Marketers can fix qualification at the top. So here comes the first question in our previous conversation. You talked about many marketing funnels being a leaky bucket. Can you please explain what you meant by that? Gabe Lullo  02:36 Yeah, I think companies right now are going to market in a very hodgepodge type of way, you know, ICP (Ideal Customer Profile), you know, we throw that terminal around a lot, and, you know, people think they know what it is, or feel like they have it drilled down, or feel like it’s completely locked, locked in. And then clients invite us in, and we realize it’s not the case, and it’s not just what the ideal client profile is, which, of course, is quintessential to going to market, and it’s really the first step to qualification, isn’t it, right? But on the other side of it, it is, you know, is there a product market fit? Is there a pricing that needs to be aligned? What’s the competitive landscape look like? So when we’re having live conversations, our sellers are making, you know, 11 million cold calls a year. That’s front of the line conversations, right? And we can hear, understand, and truly, you know, debrief with what each call is sounding like, so we can then narrow in what those qualifications should be. You know, a lot of you know, let’s say VPs of sales come into the sales development side of the house or the marketing side of the house, and they apply sales training methodologies to top of funnel qualifications, and it really gets broken as well. So there’s a lot to unpack, but I’ll give you an example. You know, band for instance, but you know budget authority needed timing. Like, is that really the right qualification at the top of the funnel, or does that really, you know, evolve the seller and the demo and the discovery call at that moment in time. So really understanding who’s in charge of that top of funnel and what their experience is also as a part of it, in my opinion. Christian Klepp  04:13 Absolutely, absolutely and you’re absolutely right. There’s so much to unpack here, but I have to ask just from your experience, and I know you have a lot, it seems like it’s just, there’s so many moving parts in this ecosystem, and a lot of like, well, what causes the leaky funnel? I’m gonna say is a lot of the things that you just mentioned, right? It’s a lack of understanding of who the actual ICP is. It’s probably also, especially the bigger the the organization gets sorry to everyone out there, but the lack of ownership and accountability, the lack of an actual strategy, like, where’s this all gonna go? Right? Gabe Lullo  04:54 Oh, it’s interesting. Yeah, I find this to be our except we so we’re doing top of the funnel activities, and we’re sending leads over, the sales team takes them, and then what we find, a lot, we hear this all the time, is leads aren’t closing. And what’s interesting is that it was never a lead problem. It was more of a seller problem. Now I don’t mean to put blame on it, but companies come to us saying, hey, my sellers are saying we don’t have enough leads, we don’t have better leads, we don’t have good leads, and they’re the ones complaining about the lead so they come to us to fix the lead problem. We fix the lead problem, but it doesn’t fix the revenue problem. It’s still not closing. So what is it? It’s the entire channel, right? It’s the entire sales journey, and we have to make sure that all of those things are working like an engine, right? All the cylinders are working at the same time in the same motion, to truly know what the problem may be. So that that’s really exposed a lot when we step in and start doing top of funnel activities, Christian Klepp  05:55 Absolutely, absolutely. And that segues into the next question, which I feel you’ve already answered to a certain extent. But where do you feel the true bottleneck lies, and that may be dependent on the company, right? Because each company maybe has a different set of challenges. And most importantly, okay, where does the bottleneck lie? And how do how can B2B Marketing teams help address the bottleneck and not be part of the bottleneck? Gabe Lullo  06:21 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there’s an eight step approach to sales. That’s what we call your sales journey, right? You have, obviously, you know, list building, and then we have, of course, outreach, we have qualification, we have discovery call, we have demo, we have, you know, closing or negotiating. We have client success. I mean, that’s the basic funnel, if you will. So is our, I should say, all of those things operating at the best of its ability. And what is broken, and it’s, it’s the old, you know, Henry Ford approach the assembly line. You know, there’s an assembly line and building a car, and there’s an assembly line in sales. And you have to know those steps, firstly, two, you have to know if those steps are working correctly, and figure out where that bottleneck is, and then, you know, take those blockers away so that those cars are flowing in and the production line doesn’t stop and we’re, you know, executing on the results that we need to serve our clients. Christian Klepp  07:16 100% agree. But now I’m gonna throw in another like wild card question, and I know you can handle it, right? When companies like yours come in to help organizations, right, there are times, even from my own experience, where the internal teams look at you and go, What are those guys doing here? Right? Like, is my job on the line. So they feel, they feel threatened, right by by somebody coming in and providing an external perspective. So I guess the question is, how do you deal with that kind of push back to help fix this leaky marketing funnel? Gabe Lullo  07:57 Yeah, it’s very important, right? Because a lot of companies come, you know, come in like us, and say, You know what, we’re going to come in here and try to solve the problem, or rip and replace or threaten the job. And it’s interesting, our point of contact, usually is the person who may be, you know, being fired because of our success. Well, we don’t want to approach it that way. So we set clear expectations that, hey, listen, we’re not here to rip and replace we are here to work as a parallel to what you’re existing doing, so we can A/B test and share best practices and be collective in those results. A lot of companies who have existing teams in place usually put us in scenarios where we’re bringing something new to market, or we’re reaching out to a market that is you know, you know, a new product line or a new segment, and we’re bringing that in. We do, however, see about a 20 to 30% increase in existing production when an outside partner comes in, because, again, we are sharing best practices. We’re all working together, but there is some pressure on the line when they see it. You know, another great player on the team playing ball. However, we did put a mechanism in place that really helps alleviate the fear, if you will, of that rip and replace scenario. Very unique thing to us, only a handful of companies I know about, of hundreds and if not thousands, that do what we do, do this. And here’s what it is, a lot of companies want to hire everything within and bring everything in house, in the sales development side within, because they graduate those people into account executives or closers or higher level performers or managers, so that graduation of career placement is there if you do it in house. So what we say is, you know what? You can have that great feeling of growing and building your team in house with us too. So all of our reps (representatives) who come work here, and all of our clients who enroll with us know that they can hire our reps and and bring them into their payroll and into their in house team with our help. So that’s a really good way of curving the fear, because they know, hey, this person who’s executing this outbound activity could be our next closer, and we can hire them to not take again, to not take away from what their current teams are doing, but to add to and grow that existing team they have. Christian Klepp  10:14 Absolutely, absolutely, and you know where I’m going with this, right? Because, like, you know, far too often, especially the higher ups that are not involved in the day to day, that are looking at this from the, I call it the Mount Olympus perspective, right, looking down at the land of the living, right? Like, why are you bringing in an external partner? Isn’t that your job to fix it? Right? But there are benefits to your point of, like, bringing in somebody that’s external, that’s not privy to, perhaps, some of the bias, some of the, certainly, the, certainly the organizational like dynamics and politics, which may, may be more detrimental than useful, right? Gabe Lullo  10:50 Yeah. I mean, we do punchy contracts, right? We have a six month minimum engagement. But so when we do that, you know, we’re saying, Hey, listen, we’re, we’re going to work with you for six months. We’re going to give it everything we got. And if it’s something you want to bring in-house from our team, great. If it’s you want to continue, great, or if you’ve learned a lot and you’re able to duplicate our efforts, also great too. So again, we’re not going in there saying, Oh, this is our world. Now. Get out of the way. Good luck, you know, and giving pink slips to people, it’s about really, again, how can we help? How can we assist? How can we hit this number? It’s not getting hit. There has to be reasons why. And let’s figure those numbers out, and let’s figure out the reasons why. And then, and then we move on, you know. So there’s short contracts, and then there’s very, very long contracts, you know, ZoomInfo has been a client off and on for the last decade. We’re doing a program right now where they just launched a lot of cool things, and we’re helping them so companies like that, size and stature, still come to outside help when necessary, when the timing is right and the fit is right. Christian Klepp  11:55 Amazing. Amazing. All right. Next question. So why do you believe rethinking how MQLs are defined and scored as the most strategic fix that a CMO can make, and what are some of these other key pitfalls that Marketers should avoid, and what should they be doing instead? I mean, let’s, let’s keep the conversation constructive here, right? Gabe Lullo  12:17 So defining and scoring MQLs is by far one of the first things, if not the most important thing, to start with, right? Because that is, again, the start of that assembly line. You know, garbage in, garbage out. And so if we’re not actually understanding why those MQLs are, the MQLs that we are saying they are, and what those triggering events are causing them to be considered. MQLs could truly dictate whether or not we’re receiving garbage into the funnel versus excellence and extraordinary leads and MQLs into the funnel. So again, it’s going back to that ICP, like we discussed earlier. It’s determining, okay, are these worthy and does it make sense to continue this, lead this MQL down the funnel, and will it produce results? Should it even be in the system at all? So knowing that up front, like I said earlier, it’s like the raw material. You know, if you have really bad raw material that you’re using to build your cars, you know, no matter how great it comes out at the other end, it’s not going to be a quality vehicle. So it’s that, it’s the raw material that we need to make sure that’s first and foremost, because it’s the start of the entire process. Christian Klepp  13:29 Yeah, yeah, no, that’s for sure. Because, you know, how many times have you heard that, right? Like the marketing team says, well, we’ve, we’ve got, we’ve generated the MQLs, we’ve passed them on to the sales team now, so we’re good, yeah, but that’s not where it stops, right? Like, so especially if the MQLs are, like, not qualified, right? Gabe Lullo  13:48 No, I couldn’t agree with you more. And again, having sales and marketing work synergistically in that determination is paramount. You know, so many companies, and it’s the old adage, and I think it’s almost a cliche now, because it’s been said so many times that you know, sales is throwing spears over the fence to marketing, and marketing is throwing another spear back to them, and they’re fighting back and forth over this wall. The deal is, you got to break down the wall and start having conversations. And again, sellers have to give feedback on why we’re seeing this to not be the right fit, and Marketers have to be curious and asking what those things may be happening on those conversations, so they can go find the MQLs that that is worthy. Christian Klepp  14:30 Absolutely, absolutely. And on that topic, what are some of these other pitfalls that marketers should be looking out for, and what should they be doing instead? Gabe Lullo  14:39 Yeah, I think what right now is that you have to really understand your channels. You know, a lot of Marketers right now are doubling down on things that may not be producing the results that they have been expecting. Maybe a year from now, two years from now, every company is different, every ICP is different, and every industry is different. I’ll give you an example. You know, if you’re reaching out to sellers and you know, red. Heads of revenue, you have to have a totally different approach than if you’re reaching out to VPs of technology and cyber security. Now that may sound basic, but if you were coming from a company and you’re in your head of marketing, and you’re coming from a company where your ICP and your persona is all tech based companies, or all tech based personas, and you go into a new industry or a new company, and you come with that lens. It’s not the right approach. You know, sellers like to pick up the phone. They think they’re customers. They use the phone all day long. They pick up the phone all the time. Maybe that’s the right channel, right? CTOs (Chief Technology Officers), CIOs (Chief Information Officers), CSOs (Chief Security Officers), they are not usually picking up the phone. Maybe they’re their channels significantly different, and so you have to realize, understand what your persona is, so you can do marketing activities towards that total addressable market that resonate and hit home and get their attention. And it could be just as much as where they live in regards to where, where do they associate with, what, what channel are they living on? Are they people that pick up the phone? Are they ones that live on LinkedIn? Are they ones that go to Instagram? Are they ones that go to conferences? Where is your audience? And know that first and then go talk to them? Christian Klepp  16:10 That’s definitely a great insight. You know it. I know it. The problem is that there’s so many teams out there that skip this part, right? Like that, like that. That detailed breakdown you just gave us about the different let’s call them like, the different personas, the different behaviors, the different channels, like, Why do you think a lot of teams out there skip this part? Is it because of the the time crunch, the pressure to deliver immediately is all of the above? Gabe Lullo  16:37 Yeah, I think, you know, there’s a lot of boardrooms out there. They come out with this unique product, and then with all they do is they do is they look at the TAM, what’s the total addressable market? But that’s like saying, I want to go catch a tuna fish. But you know, let’s just look at the entire ocean. Like, okay, we have to be more specific. Where do the tuna fish actually swim? Where part of Do they like warm water? Do they like the coast? Are they more towards New Zealand, or are they up towards the Massachusetts? So you have to know where your school of fish are. If you want to go fishing, you can’t just look at the entire ocean as the market. And I think narrowing it down to understand patterns and where people are so you can go talk to them is the right approach, versus this spray and pray mentality that I feel marketing has been living in for many, many years, and now it’s becoming more self evident because of AI, right? Because AI can tell us a lot of these things. AI can do a lot of analysis and research, and it’s giving us insights that we’ve never been able to really see before because of the speed and quickness of it. And so I think we are getting to a point, and I’m hopeful that we are more specific with our total addressable markets in new companies specifically that may not have the experience or the capacity like they used to. And I think it’s exciting. Christian Klepp  16:37 Oh Gabe, you just open the door to another question there. Man. Gabe Lullo  16:37 Like, start with an A. Christian Klepp  16:37 Yeah, it starts with an A. But, like, you know, since you brought it up, I’ve got to ask AI, right? Gabe Lullo  16:37 Yeah. Christian Klepp  16:37 And in terms of, like, helping to fix a leaky marketing funnel, how do you from your experience and your perspective, how do you think AI is helpful, and how is it harmful? Gabe Lullo  17:23 Sure. I mean double edged sword, right? We love AI. We accept it. We know it’s here. We’re not scared of it. We’re not running away from it, but we’re also not ripping and replacing things too abruptly with with the implementation of it, either. For instance, I’ll give you real examples. Are we telling AI to go make cold calls? Well, no, it’s illegal, technically. Secondly, are we using it, though, on the flip side, to train our reps on how to effectively handle great questions and objections through an AI sparring partner? Yeah, we are, and it’s amazing at it. So we actually have our reps when they’re brand new and onboarding or launching into a new campaign. We program the robot, the AI right to be able to have conversations in real life time with our reps, to literally spar with them. And it’s like practice. It’s a sparring partner before they go live onto a campaign, and it prepares them immensely before the live show, before they’re before they’re active, right on the campaign. So this is one way we’re doing it. Other ways, obviously email, messaging, obviously personalization, obviously research, you know, pre-call research, account research, determining who’s picking up the phone when they pick up the phone, how many times does it take to call them? You know, time zones? What’s the best time to call them? And it’s crazy what it could do, but it’s really, really helpful. But it’s not a crutch. It’s an assistant, and that’s how we’re approaching it. It’s not replacing human to human communication. If it was. Maybe you and I would just have our AI avatars do this podcast right instead of we’ll be on a beach somewhere, maybe we’ll be there in the future. I’m not predicting it, but I will say there’s a huge, significant role it plays right now, but it is not a role that’s, in my opinion, supposed to replace everything. It can replace a lot, but not everything. Christian Klepp  20:20 Absolutely. I mean, it certainly requires a lot of like, human intervention, right? And it’s and it’s constantly learning, and it’s learning quickly, which I think is to its benefit, to its detriment. And I think that’s, that’s your point as well. There’s a lot of stuff out there that’s AI generated that just looks off, starting with videos even, even like in I don’t know if you’ve dabbled with Google notebook, right? It can, it can take all that content and turn it into an audio file. And it’s scary. How real it sounds. Gabe Lullo  20:54 It is pretty scary. And I have seen tools like that. I love there’s one right now, where it’s actually tracking not even what someone is saying, but how they’re saying it. So tonality, right is a huge piece of communication, as we know, and so it’s literally listening to calls and sales calls, and not just again, we’ve seen it before, like, you know, Gong and others, where it’s telling, hey, maybe say this. Don’t say that, but it’s also giving that score of how they’re delivering that message, which, in my world, is huge because, you know, I could read a script, or I can, you know, have an amazing performance, and that’s how we approach, you know, the way we communicate on a phone call. So that is why we’re so excited. Because there’s new tools coming out all the time that are really, really impactful, for sure. Christian Klepp  21:42 Absolutely, absolutely. So you’ve touched on this a little bit like in the past couple of minutes, but explain how market research and strategy help to develop a solid marketing funnel, not a leaky one. Gabe Lullo  21:55 Yeah. I mean, I think it’s your playbook, right? You know, you have to have a built out playbook, and it’s your guide. And it’s not just important to go to market with a playbook, but it’s also going to market to scale, right? You know, once you get it to work, the ever everything after that is, how do we duplicate and how do we scale? So the playbook is that design is the architecture behind your strategy. So when we do start pouring fuel on the fire and we’re adding people, we’re adding leads, we’re adding workflows, we’re adding everything outside of that, we still go back to the playbook. It’s like the Constitution, right? Everything based off that in our country. I know we’re in different ones, but my point is is, is you have a framework, right, that we go off of and that playbook is so vital to our importance of market research gives us a great understanding of where that playbook is built and how it’s designed and how it’s architected, and that’s how we that’s how we do it here. Christian Klepp  22:55 And even how the playbook can be iterated, right? Because let’s not forget that it’s not written in stone. Gabe Lullo  23:01 Evolving. Yeah, absolutely. I do want to warn people, though, evolve with time. Be patient, right? You know, marketing, sales, development, it’s not a light switch. Yeah, I always say it’s like boiling water, right? So a watch pot technically does boil. It’s just painful to watch. So, but the point is, is that you have to give it enough time to see if that playbook is yielding results. What you don’t want to do is change the play, you know, too many times in the middle of the game, because then you look confused and confused. People do nothing, right? So, yes, is it evolving? Does it pivot? Does it grow? Do you do you change things up, of course. But also you want to do it in a tactful timeline to make sure that it is truly a working playbook or not. Christian Klepp  23:47 Absolutely, absolutely. And you brought something up, and I have to ask this, this next question, it’s… We know, from a marketing point of view, that rolling out these initiatives and seeing the results takes time, yeah, but we’ve had, I’ve certainly had this experience in B2B, that there are people, again, at the top, that don’t have oversight into the day to day, and probably also don’t understand quite how the process works, that don’t have that patience, right, that are telling you, like, hurry up and deliver like, we want results right now. So what do you say to those, I guess the people that are doubting that this initiative needs more time than they think it does. Gabe Lullo  24:30 Yeah. I mean, I think looking at benchmarks and case studies and past results is very important, like I said, Back to the boiling of water. You can show a thermometer as well, like you can see, is it working well? You can put a thermometer in a boiling pot of water and watch the temperature go up, right? And it gives you a clear indication and forecast, if you will, that you’re going to achieve boiling point eventually. It’s not just again, you put the water in and then. And you all of a sudden, measure boiling. You have to measure along the way, and that’s we want to do. So what the ways we do it specifically is, if we’re working on a campaign that is almost a look alike campaign to another company, maybe it’s in the same industry, same ICP, you know, same your size, same scope, we can look at that historical result and say, Hey, by the way, if we do these, these, these and these, you’re going to we’re going to expect boiling point at this time based on a company that’s very similar to yours. Now, is it identical? No, maybe that company has really bad sellers we talked about. Maybe that company doesn’t really care about content and they’re just missing the boat there. Maybe they have a crappy website, like, I don’t, there’s different levers that could, you know, alter the recipe, but we can absolutely make highly educated guesses, as opposed to just trying to wing it or give false expectations. Christian Klepp  25:54 Yeah, yeah, no, that’s absolutely right, all right. I mean, you’ve given us a lot of, like, recommendations, a lot of actionable tips. So walk us through, and I know it varies from company to company and case by case, but walk us through the process of how you actually fix a leaky marketing funnel. Like, what are the steps? What are those key components that absolutely have to be in that process? Gabe Lullo  26:14 Yeah, you have to, you know, inspect what you expect. You have to understand what your messaging is, and you have to A/B test it all the time. I A/B test everything, whether it’s data vendors, whether it’s email messaging, whether it’s LinkedIn content, what you have, obviously mechanisms, depending on what tech you’re working with, what vendors you’re working with, or your history or historical results are to give you grades and scores and A/B testing everything. So if you have, you know campaigns that are running that are successful, you should be able to know how to measure that. That’s what’s so important. So you have to have inspect, inspection tools in place across everything you’re doing on those campaigns to tell you, Hey, this is broken, this is leaky. This isn’t working. Or on the flip side, this is crushing right now. This is totally resonating right now, and we’re loving these, seeing these numbers, and then pour fuel on that fire and focus on that and remove the other ones, and still A/B test, because you always want to keep getting better. So A/B test everything, define the leaks, and then try to fix those leaks as fast as possible. Christian Klepp  27:23 Fantastic, fantastic. And because we’re talking about marketing funnels, I mean, like, I can’t help myself but ask you, okay, but what about metrics? Because that’s something that people want to see, right? But I’m not talking about like, let’s, let’s come up with this like, laundry list of like metrics, and you go down this deep rabbit hole. Like, what are the metrics that you would say, or you would advise B2B Marketers to look at to say, like, okay, we’re trying to fix the leaky marketing funnel here, and these metrics will help you to indicate that there is progress. Gabe Lullo  27:53 Yeah. I mean, it’s harder now than ever before to metric things out, and it’s because of tech that’s kind of getting in the way. You know, for instance, in an email campaign, there’s been some rules and regulations in the last recent years that prevents us from seeing whether or not there’s clicks and opens that are happening on email campaigns. I’ve actually removed many of those triggers completely away from our campaigns, because it’s preventing deliverability, and it’s preventing our ability to keep domains healthy. So there are a lot of moving parts right now that’s happening because of these AI filtration tools. I just heard Google just released that it’s going to now put disclaimers and emails saying that this was written by AI. And so there’s it’s ever involving so depending on I guess when your listeners are hearing this, it may be completely different in a year, but I will tell you that there are definitely things that we need to metric and we need to have KPIs for. But I think the priority of what we used to measure two, three years ago, is significantly different than what we measure today, because of those rules and regulations. So if we’re talking about emails, I want to know what we’re sending, who we’re sending it to, who obviously is responding. What are those responses look like? Is it turning to an actual lead? Are we turning on warm leads, or are we just looking at set meetings? You know, it’s interesting, right? There is only about 2 to 3% of the market ever wants to truly buy, and they’re in buying mode, and I think a lot of companies are just looking for those people, and about 20% of the market is actually interested in buying and we turn that entire segment off. It’s about 10 times more people. But if we can warm the nurture them correctly, and message them correctly, that’s where the rubber meets the road, and that’s where your gold is. I like to analogize everything. So, yeah, when you have a green apple, right? What do you do with the green apple? You put it on the window sill, and then the sun on the windowsill warms it up. Now, that doesn’t mean you just throw out the apple. That means you have a lot of opportunity. You just have. To nurture, and you be patient. And you have to know that timing is everything in business. So if you’re just looking for the red apples, you’re only gonna get 3% if you’re looking for green apples that turn into red apples, now you’re getting 25% so focus on the 25, be patient. Fix those leaky buckets, of course. A/B test, and then then you measure. Christian Klepp  30:20 Yeah or you get yourself an apple orchard. You mentioned one keyword there, nurture, right? I think that’s the one that’ll I see a lot of, like people in sales and even in marketing, right? They just don’t take that time to nurture those leads. They close in. I keep saying they close in for the kill too fast, right? Gabe Lullo  30:44 Yeah. I mean, go back to that food analogy, that the fruit analogy, again. Christian Klepp  30:49 Sure. Gabe Lullo  30:49 I’m on a roll with that. Christian Klepp  30:50 Please. Gabe Lullo  30:50 It’s the low hanging fruit cliche, right? Christian Klepp  30:52 Yes. Gabe Lullo  30:52 Everyone focuses on the low hanging fruit. They’re not focusing on what else is part of that harvest. They’re not focusing on the nurturing. They’re not focused on watering. They’re not focusing on circling back, following up, checking in, providing value in those checks. Not just say, Hey, I’m following up, no, provide value in those seconds, right? And that’s again, that’s where you see excellence happen, you know? And there’s a lot of young, and I don’t mean to be age, but like tenure, people that are experienced, that are in these experience roles right now, and I feel that they’re just trying to get that quick answer and that quick response. And we’re in this like dopamine, like, you know, hit like social media environment right now. Not to go off topic, but I think people are not again, they’re in this microwave society, and they don’t understand the value of nurturing. And if you do and you treat that part seriously, wow, it usually is a windfall at that time. Christian Klepp  31:47 Absolutely, absolutely. It’s an art, a skill, a craft, isn’t it? Right? All of you love, okay, my friend, we come to the point in the conversation where we’re talking about actionable tips, and Gabe, you’ve given us plenty, all right, but just think of this kind of like a recap. If there was somebody listening to this conversation that you and I are having, and you want them to walk away with three to five things that they that they can take action on right now, when it comes to fixing a leaky marketing funnel, what would they be? Gabe Lullo  32:17 Well, I think the best thing is you have to really decide if you have the right people in place, right, and are they? And it doesn’t mean that they are the ones that are going to bring it home. It doesn’t mean that they’re they don’t need support and training and love, like, do they have the commitment? Do they have good experience? Are they willing to roll up their sleeves and get get a little dirty, and if you feel like you have a great team in place of people that are ready to get to work and solve some problems. I think that is literally step one. Step two is, do we have the messaging in the mark, in the ICP nailed down? We really need to know that, because, again, there’s no point of building a campaign if you don’t know who you’re sending it to. And then, thirdly, you really have to make sure that you’re willing to A/B test. It’s hard enough to build a campaign, but it’s much more difficult to build two or three campaigns. Run three campaigns, right as opposed to one, and score each of them to determine what’s working, what’s effective, and what’s not, and then you pivot based on those results. So I think finding a great team is basic and fundamental. Finding a great ice or determining a great ICP is before you build the messaging and then measure the message across multiple campaigns, and then you should be on your way Christian Klepp  33:29 And test, test, test, everything, right? Gabe Lullo  33:34 Yes, it’s great. It could be working. It’s exciting, but maybe there’s a significantly more effective way of doing it, even though it’s still working, and let the data make those decisions for you and drive everything based off data driven decisions, and that’s how you should be operating. Christian Klepp  33:51 Absolutely, absolutely. All right. Here comes the soapbox question, a status quo in your area of expertise that you passionately disagree with and why? Gabe Lullo  34:05 Yeah, I think the big thing right now, and I have to just kind of talk about my space, because you said in my industries, like, there’s a lot of, you know, people out there soapboxing, to be exact, on things that are dead or not. And I will tell you that, you know, cold calling is dead, emailing is dead. You know, LinkedIn is dead, or all of these things and and when you peel back the onion, you notice that those individuals who are saying that users are trying to sell a book or something, and nothing against selling books, but it sounds like there’s a personal agenda and not actual operational intelligence that is dictating what they’re saying. So to your point about testing everything, don’t assume something is not going to work just because someone said it on the internet. Test it and then decide if it’s going to work. And it may surprise you in a big, big way. Christian Klepp  34:56 I truly believe that, man, I truly believe that. I mean to your point. About, like, email being dead. I mean, I did close one client who was a guest on the show, and it took me a year to close, but I closed it through email. Gabe Lullo  35:09 Yeah. Christian Klepp  35:11 Right. And it’s to your point, it’s sending, sending that person articles that were relevant to that person’s industry and saying, like, Hey, I read this the other day, what are your thoughts on this? And here’s my take. What do you think? Gabe Lullo  35:24 That is the best way to do an email, right? You know, we do a lot of content and on social media, we do a lot of podcasting, posts on LinkedIn, but that’s all great, but where the rubber meets the road is you take that post and you send it in an email or a direct message and say, Hey, listen. This made me think of our last conversation, and I really liked the way that this person mentioned this. Do you think you know that there is, is the timing right here to reopen this conversation, and you feel like the problem is still existing in your world, and love to see if we can solve it for you, that type of content, that type of message, that type of verbiage at the right time in a nurture campaign like we discussed, close one business, right? That’s how it works. Christian Klepp  36:08 Absolutely, absolutely okay. Here comes the bonus question, and for those of you that are listening to the audio version, Gabe’s got two guitars right behind him, so I’m just gonna go on a hunch here that he likes playing guitar, right? So the question is, if you had the opportunity to, like, go on a tour with your favorite guitarist/musician, who would it be, and where would you go? Gabe Lullo  36:36 Wow, I love this question. I do play the guitar. I’m a bet big avid music player. Love Rock as well, but all genres, I will say, in real life, we just actually my family, my wife and daughter and I went to go see Oasis reunion tour, which was in Toronto, actually, out of all places. Christian Klepp  36:53 That’s right, you mentioned it. Gabe Lullo  36:54 Yeah, we went to see that. It was epic. Obviously, the brothers have been apart for many years. A lot of drama there. But yeah, you know, I’m old enough to remember their original songs, so it was cool to reminisce and introduce my daughter to that music, which was pretty cool. We’re gonna go see Paul McCartney in a few weeks. He’s on tour now and never seen him or I’m a big fan of The Beatles, and I think that would be really exciting to tour with him, obviously. And I think those are definitely both of those right there kind of sum up the type of music that I resonate with. Christian Klepp  37:26 Amazing, amazing. I just remember, like, this is, this is a couple of years ago. I think he’s already passed away, but Compay Segundo. Gabe Lullo  37:33 Oh yeah. Christian Klepp  37:34 Buena Vista Social Club. And the guy was in his 90s, and they were, they had a concert, and they they brought him up in stage in his wheelchair, helped him get up, get out of that wheelchair, and they gave him that guitar, and off he went, Man, like, Gabe Lullo  37:48 Yeah, yeah, that’s amazing, man, that’s amazing. Christian Klepp  37:53 Gabe, this has been such a great conversation. Thank you so much for coming on and for sharing your experience and expertise with the listeners. So please quick intro to yourself and how folks out there can get in touch with you. Gabe Lullo  38:03 Yeah, LinkedIn is the best way to connect with me directly. I post twice a day, every day. We’re very bullish with our content. There’s a lot of free material there. We have a newsletter, so please take a look at that, and if you like what you see, and he heard today, you know, reach out, and I’ll definitely be responsive. And you know, anyone who is looking or struggling with the after-sales motion, which are after marketing motion, that sales development function, that’s where we play, and we’d love to look at what you’re looking for and see how we can help. Christian Klepp  38:33 Sounds good. Gabe, once again, thank you so much for your time. Take care, stay safe and talk to you soon. Gabe Lullo  38:38 Thanks, Christian. Christian Klepp  38:39 All right. Bye for now.

How Performance-First B2B Marketing Drives Better Results Traditional B2B marketing and advertising are undergoing a major transformation in the age of AI and rapid technological advancement. With shifting market dynamics and budget cuts across B2B organizations, marketing teams are under pressure to do more with less and prove their impact on business performance and revenue growth. How can B2B marketers quickly adapt, demonstrate ROI, and establish a strategic role within their organizations? That's why we're talking to Keith Turco (CEO, Madison Logic), who shares insights and proven strategies on how performance-first B2B marketing drives better results. During our conversation, Keith explored the evolving B2B marketing landscape and explained why performance-first strategies are crucial in times of market changes and budget cuts. He emphasized the importance of data-driven insights to measure ROI, optimize media plans, and tailor messages to specific target audiences. Keith also highlighted the need for a full-funnel approach that leverages AI-powered personalization at scale, and integrating new channels like audio and video. Additionally, he elaborated on why understanding both personal and professional interests of buyers to shorten sales cycles and build brand affinity are essential. Keith stressed the value of creativity in performance marketing to maintain loyalty and differentiate top marketers. Tune in as he also shared some key findings of research conducted by Madison Logic and The Harris Poll on the future of advertising and the impact of AI on B2B marketing. https://youtu.be/DAYcJf7AlIs Topics discussed in episode: [2:09] How macroeconomic shifts and budget cuts are creating a “performance-first” approach. [6:12] Embracing AI: Moving from a reactive to a proactive stance in advertising.  [9:50] The consumerization of B2B: Why your next lead might come from a podcast or TikTok.  [13:15] The full-funnel advantage: Moving beyond fragmented tactics to a more unified data strategy.  [17:34] Communicating with the C-Suite vs. managers: Tailoring content for different “states of mind”. [22:27] Research insights: Why 73% of leaders see AI as the future of creative production. [32:12] Why abandoning brand for “just the facts” performance marketing is a mistake. Companies and links mentioned: Keith Turco on LinkedIn Madison Logic Transcript Keith Turco, Christian Klepp Christian Klepp  00:01 In the age of rapid technological developments in AI, traditional B2B, marketing and advertising are witnessing monumental changes with shifting market dynamics and budget cuts across B2B organizations, marketing teams will have to do more with less. So how can they achieve this and still be instrumental to organizational success? Welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers on a Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp, today I’ll be talking to Keith Turco, who will be answering this question. He’s the CEO of Madison Logic, which leads global account based marketing initiatives to help revenue driven marketers accelerate buying journeys with targeted, measurable strategies. Tune in to find out more about what this B2B marketer’s mission is. Okay, and here we are. Mr. Keith Turco, welcome to the show. Keith Turco  00:50 Thank you, Christian. Good to see you. Christian Klepp  00:53 Likewise, likewise. We had a great pre-interview conversation, and I’m really looking forward to this conversation. We got to buckle up a little bit, because there’s a lot to cover. There’s a lot to cover, but I think it’s going to be really interesting, relevant and pertinent to all those B2B marketers out there. So let’s, let’s dive right in. Keith Turco  01:11 Great. Excited to be here. Christian Klepp  01:12 All right, so Keith, you’re on a mission to help B2B companies succeed by delivering performance-first strategies across the full marketing funnel and performance-first, I think, is going to be a word or a term that we’re going to hear throughout this conversation, but for this conversation, let’s focus on a topic and unpack it from there, so it’s how B2B marketing teams can rapidly adapt to market changes and contribute to organizational success. So let me set this up a little bit, because that sounds like. that sounds a little bit generic. But you know, after after the description, I think people will understand what I’m talking about. So your company, Madison Logic, helps clients own the buying journey by creating lasting impact at every interaction with high value buying groups through data driven ABM. So let’s start off with this question, how have shifting macroeconomic conditions and budget cuts forced B2B marketing teams to do more with less? Keith Turco  02:09 Well inherent in the conversation, or the question is you’ve got less budget. You’ve seen lots of cuts come through either from a staff cutting perspective, you’ve got less people to help you execute against things, as well as less budget to spend on marketing. So what does that mean, and what are the implications? And how does our technology and our approach to market help. Everything from a performance first perspective allows things to be measured, and because you can measure, you can quickly calculate ROI, you can quickly optimize your your media plans, and you can also take a look at what your creative is and isn’t working and what’s working through from a content based perspective. So when you take a performance-first approach to your marketing initiatives, you have all the data at your fingertips to give you the insights and intelligence you need in order to hit the right targets and the right buying groups with the right message at the right time, and give you what you need to actually, really measure the impact and optimize on a regular basis to to prove the ROI that you’re trying to prove for the organization and support sales. Christian Klepp  03:19 Yeah, no, absolutely. And you touched on a lot of things there, which I think are going to be a to be things that are going to come up throughout this conversation. So things like calculating ROI, being able to measure. I mean, who doesn’t want to do that in the world of B2B, right? But how do you see a performance based approach? And I suppose that’s the next question. How does a performance based approach help companies to adapt to, well, a lot of these market changes, and I know that’s a bit of an understatement, because market changes, it’s so broad and multifaceted, but how does it help to address these changes? Keith Turco  03:51 First and foremost, I think access to data allows you to test and learn, what’s working, what’s not, against what buying groups. I kind of mentioned it a couple of minutes ago. But if you’re looking at what’s working against which target segment, what messages make the most sense, what content are they looking for? And then on top of that, you have a buying group. Each of those groups contain multiple levels of executives and employees. So are they all consuming the same message. Can you sub segment that buying group into different categories that consume different content, that allow them to actually understand the full picture that you’re trying to communicate? And then obviously prove out ROI? I think the other thing prove out ROI is a big statement. What does that mean? What are the KPIs? They’re different for each customer that’s out there, right? So what does ROI mean to one organization versus the other? And by allowing yourself to test and learn and gain the insights that you you’re looking for, you can prove out ROI in different ways. Ultimately, the ultimate ROI is reflected in sales, right? But. Some clients will work with us on visits to website. Other clients will work with us on appointment setting. Other clients will look at, you know, number of interactions. And then lastly, of course, looking at ROI from a sale based perspective and what they’re selling, Christian Klepp  05:18 Absolutely, absolutely. And we’re certainly going to talk about the buying committee a little bit later on in this conversation. The time of this recording is at the end of 2025 and you know, I have to ask you the question about AI, and I know you your company has done some research about that, and we will look into that a little bit further on. But because you’re talking about accessing data and analyzing and aggregating data, and how does, how has technological advancements, also in the form of artificial intelligence, perhaps help that process, but also threatened B2B marketing in a way? Keith Turco  05:56 I don’t think I ever view it as threatening. I’ll always look at AI as a form of enhancement and allowance to optimize and go to market. I think probably a future question you’re going to ask, I might actually jump to it as well from an AI perspective. Keith Turco  06:12 But the impact of AI on advertising and marketing, and how is it playing a role in performance marketing? AI allows itself and lends itself to really impact performance marketing, having been and being been at, and being a fan of and student of advertising. To me, I think that AI allows us to lean in a bit more. I think we should continue to ask ourselves those questions. But the core approach from the creative side of things will still be there. What AI will allow us to do in the performance marketing world is lean into what I was referring to earlier, which is test and learn. What messages based on which audience. How do I sub segment, buying groups? How do I sub segment, even some of those additional segments, and in an effort to not spend so much time adapting creative to those sub segments or geographies or different business units inside an organization, right so each of those things allows, or would benefit from having a much more tailored approach to communications and AI should be leveraged from that perspective to lean into those kinds of things, helping you with testing and learning, helping you with sub segmenting, helping you with geographical segmentation, business unit segmentation, those kinds of things, you know, there’s multiple BU’s that are buying groups inside of a large technology organization, right? So to message them all the same would kind of be silly. Christian Klepp  06:12 Please, please. Christian Klepp  07:48 Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, perhaps the better. But the better term, as opposed to saying threatening, is, how is it impacted B2B marketing might be a might be a better way of looking at it. Keith Turco  07:57 Yeah, I think, I think exactly that point, right? It’s impacting everything. But what I challenge everybody, when they say, oh, AI is going to threaten or kill or do, is like, Well, how do you embrace it, and how do you give it a hug, and how do you leverage it to evolve your approach from a marketing perspective, versus to get nervous about it and be more proactive instead of reactive in your approach to AI? Christian Klepp  08:23 Absolutely, absolutely so based on what you’ve said, like, what would you say are some of the key pitfalls that B2B marketing teams should avoid, and what should they be doing instead? Keith Turco  08:32 Really understanding what their ROI is, who the buying groups are? I know we keep coming back to that, right? But I think B2B marketers are also really focused on what their BDRs are up to and what kind of lead generation they can they can provide to their sales organizations. And I’d say go a bit further than that, right? It’s not just lead generation from a content syndication perspective, it’s a full funnel multimedia approach. We talk about this also, I think, in upcoming questions Christian because we prepped for the meeting, but the buying group is 7 to 10 people, and are you hitting the right people at the right time with the right message? So I think it’s important to take a look back at certain aspects of how you’re approaching your your marketing initiatives as you really unpack the strategy and look at things I don’t know if I answered the question though. Christian Klepp  09:38 Yeah. I mean, it’s basically about like, you know, these are the things that B2B marketers should be paying attention to. These are some of the things that they should be avoiding, right? And keeping the conversation constructive, as it were. Keith Turco  09:50 Yeah, and I think it’s important to set the KPIs for campaigns, optimize your media plans, and then multimedia, when I talk about that, specifically, multi-format. We’ve talked about what channels in the B2B space that might not have been tapped in the past, should be tapped, right? Some of the research we’ve done with with Harris poll also talked about the consumerization of the B2B space. So what mediums working in the B2C space that we can move over to the B2B space, which is why you’ll see that we launched audio earlier this year in our platform. But video is obviously a big play as well. So the B2B space is leaning into the TikToks and YouTubes of the world as well as audio. So video and audio are also mediums. I think it’s important for the B2B landscape to take a look at. I guess we’ve dubbed it B2B2C. Right at the end of the day, we’re all people that are consuming media, making business decision. Christian Klepp  10:54 Absolutely, absolutely. And I’m sure you’ve come across this camp, because I certainly have that basically, really want to draw that line in the sand and say, No, you know, that’s not transferable. You can’t use those same tactics in B2C, I tend to disagree, because it, like you said, like, it really, it really depends. It really depends also on the vertical you’re talking about. And going back again to who are we targeting with this, right? And that might be also you brought it up, one of the pitfalls is, like, you know, the lack of understanding of who you’re targeting. Because in B2B, it tends to be people in that buying group, right? Keith Turco  11:30 I think it’s important to recognize, you talked about tactics. Which tactics are people consuming and in a previous life, in a previous world, we called it the at work state of mind. And I think in the post covid era, you don’t work nine to five anymore, right? So when we talk about tactics and understanding your target and bringing those two things together, I might be on the treadmill in the morning listening to a podcast, still thinking about work, right? It’s not because I’m not at a desk or in the office anymore. Where should I hit them and why? And I think it’s important as we look at firmographics, we should also look at personal demographics of the buyers and the business decision makers. And, you know, marrying both demographics and firmographics will help figure out what the optimal media mix is. So on the drive to work, on the treadmill or the elliptical right, watching a video, listening to a podcast, you know, multi screen. So obviously, I’m sitting here with you with my phone in one hand, a big screen to the right on the other, and looking at my laptop. So, you know, people that multitask and/or consume different ways on different screens at different day parts. So it’s a combination of consumer and B2B, and the melding of the two come together, understanding that it’s not just a tactic B2B tactic play, but it’s a it’s a personal demographic in that decision maker and where they are. Christian Klepp  13:01 Yeah, yeah. No, that’s absolutely right. In our previous conversation, Keith, you talked about how the full funnel approach is critical in the B2B space. So please share with us what you would like more people to understand about this approach. Keith Turco  13:15 Yeah, I think I’ll talk about it from a Madison Logic perspective in particular. So from an activity based perspective, full funnel activity allows us to measure holistically and easier. You can absolutely measure it in a… there could be full funnel, but fragmented full funnel versus one system full funnel, which is Madison Logic’s full funnel, we partner with agencies and clients alike, to do some tactics in our funnel and some tactics outside of our funnel. Either way, full funnel is critical, because you need to hit 7 to 10 times to 7 to 10 buyers. So that’s a minimum of 50 communications that go out there, whether it’s inside a single platform, like Madison Logic or in combination with other platforms outside. So we can do both, and we work with both. The reason why we like full funnel in in our platform is that, again, it comes down to insights, intelligence and data. We’re not saying that your entire media spend should be spent in our funnel, but showing a full funnel activity of audio, display, CTV, content syndication allows us to gather the insights that you’re looking for, the data that you’re looking for, that then allows you to optimize your media mix, either inside of our funnel or next to our funnel in conjunction with it. Some of our clients will, you know, leverage our content syndication only. Others will do content syndication and display, but still by audio and video outside of it, and then others will do all for what we’re being leveraged for specifically is inside of a smaller subset, which is a test and learn, we can show which media mix works optimally against which segments and which targets by client, and then our agency partners, or our clients in particular, will take that media mix and then apply it to their entire media spend. So that’s what when we talk about full funnel, it’s also guaranteeing overlap at the account level and the individual level inside of our funnel. So it’s important that data is collected and then leveraged in a larger way. Christian Klepp  15:31 I hope I’m not trying to oversimplify what you just explained. But the way that I understand also like full funnel approach, the reason why you recommend that approach is also because of the way that people consume content differently and meeting them where they’re at, and also because we know that the buying committee, and we’ve all seen the diagrams, right? Like the diagrams of how the B2B sales envision, the target audience to assume to consume the content and the way they really do. And it’s really a haphazard diagram, isn’t it? Keith Turco  16:00 It’s no longer linear, right? Christian Klepp  16:04 No. Keith Turco  16:04 I think we approached it that way, but we’re finally admitting that it’s not. And I think your point’s really great in so much as you know, full funnel and buying groups, and again, there are groups, but each each group consists of 7 to 10 people that have different media consumption habits, so it’s important to hit them where where they are, and understanding that, and allowing, if you do a multi channel approach with us and we collect the data, we can say these sub segments of your buying group are consuming media on video, display and email. This sub segment is consuming on display video and content syndication, right? So it allows us to really provide the insights and intelligence needed to optimize the reduced spend that you have to better garner the ROI that you’re looking for.   Christian Klepp  17:02 Yeah, yeah. No, exactly, exactly. You’ve talked about it a little bit already, but like we know that in B2B, we’re mostly dealing with, as you said, a buying committee consisting of anywhere between 7 to 10 people. They all have different roles and responsibilities, different motivations for either using or not using said service provider or said approach. So how can teams implement, I would say B2B marketing initiatives that strategically address the buying committee’s concerns and questions. Keith Turco  17:34 It’s really gaining… I keep on going back to the same two words, and I apologize if I sound repetitive, right? But the insights and intelligence are critical to understand the buying groups, what they’re looking for. Let’s dissect it a little bit, right? So if you were to look at the top of the buying group chain, you’ve got C suite executives. Those C suite executives consume media in very different ways because they have very different schedules and are on the road quite a lot, so they’ll be listening to podcasts more than they’ll be watching a CTV kind of application that most will probably want to watch on a bigger screen versus a smaller screen, right? So it’s understanding which businesses decision makers are interested in what categories, right? So you’ve got C suite that sit across multiple views. You’ve got manager levels that are really focused on one specific business unit that will play very differently than, and the messaging to them will play very differently than a C suite person that is across multiple and then they tend to consume media in very different ways, both as individual people as well as from a professional standpoint. The more busy road runner type consumes media and snippets. And you know, we also talk about thumb stopping creative and thumb stopping messaging, because we know that they’re on their phones more than they are on an iPad or a laptop. So the insights that you get from that and the intelligence that you get from that data collection will help you be that much more effective when targeting different individuals inside of a buying group. Christian Klepp  19:16 And it’s also, I would say, about trying to close that trust cap, right? Because there is especially B2B, there’s this whole notion of like, people tend to trust slower, for lack of a better description. So there’s that effort, through that approach, to try to like, build that trust, build that credibility. Because it does take time. This isn’t something where you know they have to make a decision in 48 hours, right? It takes, it takes much longer. Keith Turco  19:42 And I think important, when you close the trust gap, you shorten the sales cycle. So when you shorten the sales cycle, it’s much quicker route, quicker route to ROI, that’s proven by both the marketing and sales team. So the quicker the trust gap is closed, the quicker the cycle happens. Christian Klepp  19:59 Exactly, exactly so. And based on that, like, what role does a performance based approach play in winning over the different members of the buying committee? And you’ve touched on some of these aspects already. Keith Turco  20:13 Again, that the knowledge that you gain from performance based approaches. Everything is measurable, right? Let’s pause for half a second there when we talk about performance marketing, which is obviously next gen of… it started as database marketing and then went into one to one marketing, and then it went into digital marketing, and now it’s performance marketing, because everything is measurable, the insights you collect from that absolutely make a difference, whereas traditional old school advertising of the 70s, 80s and even somewhat 90s was, let’s just hit them with a big message, right? I think it’s important to talk about performance marketing being branded response. Everything you do should both build a brand and elicit a response. So we’re not saying performance marketing at the risk of neglecting branding. We’re saying performance marketing inclusive of branding in the marketplace, so the loyalty and familiarity come to play. Christian Klepp  21:17 Yes, yes, exactly. I was going to say, if you were going to throw a brand out the window like Don Draper would come back and say, Hey, man… Keith Turco  21:25 Absolutely not. Brand is critical, because you are obviously to your point play on the loyalty side, right? And you know, affinity plays a big role in previous experience with existing brands, and people are loyal to certain brands, so we’re not throwing all of the traditional advertising metrics out the window either, but everything that, everything that we put in the marketplace, should play a dual role of building a brand and eliciting a measurable response. Christian Klepp  21:54 Yeah, that’s it. That’s it. So for this next question, not trying to scare anybody, but you guys did conduct a lot of research together with Harris Poll, and you came back with some really interesting figures, right? So one of them that you did together with Harris poll was shows that nearly 73% of marketing decision makers believe AI generated creative will define the future of advertising. So how will that fact alone replace traditional advertising as we know it? Keith Turco  22:27 I don’t think it replaces. I’ll go back to the same answer that we started at. I think it enhances, right? So 73% of the respondents absolutely see AI playing a role in their marketing and advertising, and it allows them to learn from the data that they collect, adapt and make changes quickly. It allows them to take into consideration geographical differences and business unit focused differences. It also allows you to take on the demographic insights, not just the firmographic insights, right? So if I know that Christian is living in Europe and is focused on certain business functions, but in his personal life, also likes to ski or golf, I’m oversimplifying it, right? But AI allows you to say, Oh, well, this visual will appeal to Christian. This cultural nuance and difference will appeal to Christian, and it allows you to hyper target in a much different way. That is we’ve advanced to that, had advanced to that pre AI, but it was a bit more manually intensive than it will be and is today from an AI based perspective. Christian Klepp  23:40 Now that you’ve explained it that way, that hopefully puts some of these doubts or fears a little bit to rest, because it’s an it’s an enhancement, or it should be viewed and treated as an enhancement mechanism, rather than a complete like disruption. Keith Turco  23:53 Absolutely, and that’s where, when I started, there is still a world where creativity is paramount, and that’s at the original conceptual stages, right? But what would take us months to make international adaptations and/or having three or four different pivot tables come together to say this creative with this copy block against this target audience with this message, so it’s the confluence of data that allows for easier output, from an AI perspective, to make it much more tailored to the desired consumer of that content. Christian Klepp  24:34 This same report that I mentioned previously, it also mentions that about 90% of companies are exploring new ways to reach audiences, and you did talk about that so but again, what are some of these channels and how will they impact the B2B marketing moving forward? Keith Turco  24:48 Yeah, first and foremost, you’re looking at social as a new avenue beyond the B2B LinkedIn social perspective, which plays a significant role in the B2B campaigns, but it’s also figuring out where Christian or Keith are consuming in their personal lives. So it’s not shocking that if you’re on Tiktok or Instagram or on our YouTube channel, that you’ll see some B2B messages that are out there. Early on, we knew from an event based perspective, that lots of business decision makers were watching golf, watching tennis. So sports has always and will continue to play a role, even in the B2B space. But it’s a good example of finding your consumer interests and where they overlap with your business interests. And it’s the same kind of thing from from that perspective, as well as understanding. I keep going back to the same message of Right place, right time, right audience, right segment. But so when you look at the new mediums, or the consumer based mediums, you know it’s understanding that where the personal interests come together with professional interests, and are they on Facebook? Are they on Instagram? Are they on YouTube? Are they on X and where are they playing, and how are they playing in those spaces, and where can I get the overlap? And, you know, from a business and personal perspective, also going back to day parts, right? Are they exercising on the treadmill at 5am, 6am, seven, 7am? Are they doing it in the PM? Are you catching them on their drive to and from the office? Maybe not five days a week anymore, but three days a week, right? Understanding, it’s funny, but you know, even dissecting the day of the week and how you you you buy media and how you serve it, right? So we know that if people are hybrid, they’re most of the time, they’re in the office Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and not necessarily in the office on Mondays and Fridays. So you might catch them in different aspects of different parts of the week as well, day parts days of the week. Christian Klepp  26:56 It’s really interesting that you bring that up, because I had a gentleman on a little bit earlier this year that spoke about what he called Time of Day Marketing, and what he meant by that is like, is Keith the same person, or does he consume the same content, as an example, right at lunchtime, in the afternoon or or in the evening, before it goes to bed? And knowing that, and it’s going back to your ability to analyze and aggregate that data and spot these trends, right? That will help people to determine, Okay, so based on this time of the day when this person is consuming that content, what would be the best and most effective channel to use to reach out to said person? Because it could be a different channel. Keith Turco  27:35 Yeah, definitely. And I think looking at, we called it day parts, right? It’s what day part makes the most sense against which target audience. And it’s it is especially now, because we can gather that information and see when they’re consuming so going back to your earlier questions around performance marketing. Used to be, let’s just run it and see. You know that you would, we would always buy media in day part, and you could even buy it, obviously, from a program based perspective, so you’re but really dissecting and understanding which day parts individuals from the buying group consume media to your point, am I during lunchtime? Am I toggling off of my business channels and onto my personal channels. And that’s where I think to the point you made, and the point I made, that’s where it comes together, is personal demographics associated with firmographics and business decision makers, and where we can find them in their personal lives, not just their professional lives. You don’t just work between the hours of nine and five anymore, and you don’t just think about work between the hours of nine and five. Christian Klepp  28:44 That’s it. That’s it. Yeah, Keith, I had one follow up question for you, and I know that this isn’t really social media, per se, but what’s your take on Reddit, and how significant Do you think that is to B2B? Keith Turco  28:52 I think it’s it’s making, it’s making a play in the B2B space, absolutely. And I think we’d be remiss not to understand the impact it has on the B2B space. Finally, I have just asked the team to double click on Reddit, literally in the last couple of business days, to see what you know, what the impact of Reddit can be, and can it be measured in the B2B space. So I definitely think. Man, I don’t know if I would classify it as a social channel, but it’s kind of a publishing social. It’s kind of a little bit both. Christian Klepp  29:29 It straddles that those worlds, as I like to call it, right, like, it’s a little bit. Yeah, it’s hybrid. There you go. There you go. Absolutely. Okay. So again, in our previous conversation, you mentioned that the most effective B2B campaigns will be ones that combine AI driven insights with creativity and multi channel orchestration to deliver personalization at scale. So that’s a slightly different take to what you said earlier. So could you. Please elaborate on that a bit. Keith Turco  30:01 The personalization at scale, I don’t know that I view it as different. I kind of view it same, right? Christian Klepp  30:08 Same, okay. Keith Turco  30:09 Because it allows you to personalize based on the different data points that you collect and information that you collect from performance marketing, right? So personalization at scale allows me to say, okay, Christian is different than Keith, who’s different than Joe, who all work in the same organization might make might overlap with 80% of their business decisions, and 20% will be standalone. So performance marketing is, if done properly, is personalization at scale. It allows you to scale on a much bigger level, to ensure that you can have the sub segments be personalized, and have the information that you serve up to them resonate based on their personal interests and business interests. Christian Klepp  30:56 Yeah, absolutely, I guess the trick. And you’ve probably seen this happen to this, there’s companies out there that are using the personalization at scale, or they’re approaching it the wrong way. I would say they try to go in under the guise of personalization, but what actually is a bit more of a veiled sales pitch. Keith Turco  31:13 I agree, and I think that if you, if you can really tap into where the world comes together, of personal and professional interests and apply that to the individual customer or consumer. You can truly personalize on what makes it tick, and I think personalization at scale isn’t just a creative comment, it’s a media comment, right? It’s I can personalize the media journey based on how I know Christian is consuming media throughout the day, so it’s where content and creativity match media consumption. Christian Klepp  31:49 Absolutely, absolutely okay. I’m going to ask you a soapbox question, if that’s okay with you. So let’s zero in on the topic of performance marketing, because that is your area. What is the status quo in performance marketing that you passionately disagree with, and why? Keith Turco  32:12 From a B2B performance marketing perspective, I think we talk about right place, right time, right message. And I think the status quo is that creative doesn’t matter, because if you serve the right message to the right person at the right time, creative won’t make an impact. And I’ll go back to branded response. I think the status quo is creative doesn’t play as big of role as it used to, and I would disagree, I talked about thumb stopping. You have to get people to stop, right? Because people are constantly scrolling and they’re being barraged with message after message after message. So what will resonate? And I do think that, you know, building a brand that has integrity, that creates loyalty. So to me, it’s the proper balance of brand and demand, or branded response that should be looked at again. I think we’ve probably taken a 10 year hiatus from that, and it was just about right message, right time. And it worked because it was thumb stopping at the time. But given the overload of messages, and exactly what we’re talking about, Christian of hitting people in their personal lives with professional messages, there’s an overload of messages that happen. So it’s kind of bringing all of your the soapbox questions, bringing all of your questions together, right? Which is what it’s intended to do. So it’s funny, because you you know you can absolutely understand that you can shorten the sales cycle by creating brand affinity. You talked about, is AI a threat to advertising. Actually, it’s an enhancement, because brand, to me, in my mind, still plays a significant role. And it’s bringing the two worlds together that will differentiate the top notch marketers of tomorrow. Christian Klepp  34:08 Absolutely, absolutely. And it goes back to something that you said earlier. I mean, this whole ecosystem is in a constant state of evolution, so marketers better learn to quote what you said, to embrace it, rather than to push back at it, right, or to push back on it, right? Keith Turco  34:24 I think the key is evolution. It’s not abandonment, right? And net new activities, right? So email was an evolution of direct mail. This display was an evolution of, you know, the 15 second video kind of thing, right? It’s how do we evolve, leverage what we’ve, what we know and what worked, and evolve it to make it better? It’s not necessarily, in my mind, a replacement of, sure, will it take the place of certain aspects of things, absolutely, but how can you use it to enhance and add versus feel threatened by it? Christian Klepp  35:03 Absolutely, absolutely. Keith, this conversation was dynamite. Thank you so much for coming on and for sharing your experience and expertise with the listeners. Quick introduction to yourself and how folks out there can get in touch with you. Keith Turco  35:15 Sure. Keith Turco, CEO of Madison Logic, you can find me on LinkedIn. Would love to talk to you about your business needs and how we can help you from ABM perspective. Christian Klepp  35:27 Fantastic, fantastic. Once again, Keith, thanks so much for coming on the show. It was a pleasure. Keith Turco  35:33 Thank you, Christian. You have a great day. Christian Klepp  35:34 Thanks. Bye bye.

How to Build a Winning Strategy for Your B2B Brand In a fast-paced business environment, marketers, agencies, and consultants must proactively help clients differentiate their brands in the marketplace. One way of doing this is by analyzing the strategy, messaging, and brand positioning, both for their own brands and key competitors. So how can teams conduct this kind of brand research and competitive analysis in a way that's insightful, efficient, and actionable for planning the next steps? Tune in as the B2B Marketers on Mission Podcast presents the Marketing DEMO Lab Series, where we sit down with Clay Ostrom (Founder, Map & Fire) and his SmokeLadder platform designed for brand research, messaging and positioning analysis, and competitive benchmarking. In this episode, Clay explained the platform's origins and features, emphasizing its role in analyzing brand positioning, core messaging, and competitive landscapes. He also stressed the importance of clear, consistent brand positioning and messaging, and how standardized make it easier to compare brands across multiple business values. Clay also highlighted the value of objective, data-driven analysis to identify brand strengths, weaknesses, and gaps, and how tools like SmokeLadder can save significant time in gathering insights to build trust with clients. He provided practical steps for generating, refining, and exporting brand messaging and analysis for internal or client-facing use. Finally, Clay also discussed how action items and recommendations generated from analysis can immediately support smart brand strategy decisions and expedite trust-building with clients. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4_o1PzF1Kk Topics discussed in episode: [1:31] The purpose behind building SmokeLadder and why it matters for B2B teams [12:00] A walkthrough of the SmokeLadder platform and how it works [14:51] SmokeLadder's core features [17:48] How positioning scores and category rankings are calculated [35:36] How differentiation and competitors are analyzed inside SmokeLadder [44:07] How SmokeLadder builds messaging and generates targeted personas [50:24] The key benefits and unique capabilities that set SmokeLadder apart Companies and links: Clay Ostrom Map & Fire SmokeLadder Transcript Christian Klepp  00:00 In an increasingly competitive B2B landscape, marketers, agencies and consultants, need to proactively find ways to help their clients stand out amidst the digital noise. One way of doing this is by analyzing the strategy, messaging and positioning of their own brands and those of their competitors. So how can they do this in a way that’s insightful, efficient and effective? Welcome to this first episode of the B2B Marketers in the Mission podcast Demo Lab Series, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp. Today, I’ll be talking to Clay Ostrom about this topic. He’s the owner and founder of the branding agency Map and Fire, and the creator of the platform Smoke Ladder that we’ll be talking about today. So let’s dive in. Christian Klepp  00:42 All right, and I’m gonna say Clay Ostrom. Welcome to this first episode of the Demo Lab Series. Clay Ostrom  00:50 I am super excited and very honored to be the first guest on this new series. It’s awesome. Christian Klepp  00:56 We are honored to have you here. And you know, let’s sit tight, or batten down the hatches and buckle up, and whatever other analogy you want to throw in there, because we are going to unpack a lot of interesting features and discuss interesting topics around the platform that you’ve built. And I think a good place to start, perhaps Clay before we start doing a walk through of the platform is, but let’s start at the very beginning. What motivated you to create this platform called Smoke Ladder. Clay Ostrom  01:31 So we should go all the way back to my childhood. I always dreamed of, you know, working on brand and positioning. You know, that was something I’ve always thought of since the early days, but no, but I do. I own an agency called Map and Fire, so I’ve been doing this kind of work for over 10 years now, and have worked with lots and lots of different kinds of clients, and over that time, developed different frameworks and a point of view about how to do this kind of work, and when the AI revolution kind of hit us all, it just really struck me that this was an opportunity to take a lot of that thinking and a lot of that, you know, again, my perspective on how to do this work and productize that and turn it into something that could be used by people when we’re not engaged with them, in some kind of service offering. So, so that was kind of the kernel of it. I actually have a background in computer science and product. So it was sort of this natural Venn diagram intersection of I can do some product stuff, I can do brand strategy stuff. So let’s put it together and build something. Christian Klepp  02:46 And the rest, as they say, is history. Clay Ostrom  02:49 The rest, as they say, is a lot of nights and weekends and endless hours slaving away at trying to build something useful. Christian Klepp  02:58 Sure, sure, that certainly is part of it, too. Clay Ostrom  03:01 Yeah. Christian Klepp  03:02 Let’s not keep the audience in suspense for too long here, right? Like, let’s start with the walk through. And before you share your screen, maybe I’ll set this up a little bit, right? Because you, as you said, like, you know, you’ve built this platform. It’s called Smoke Ladder, which I thought was a really clever name. It’s, you like to describe it as, like, your favorite SEO (Search Engine Optimization) tool, but for brand research and analysis. So I would say, like, walk us through how somebody would use this platform, like, whether they be a marketer that’s already been like in the industry for years, or is starting out, or somebody working at a brand or marketing agency, and how does the platform address these challenges or questions that people have regarding brand strategy, analysis and research? Clay Ostrom  03:49 Yeah, yeah. I use that analogy of the SEO thing, just because, especially early on, I was trying to figure out the best way to describe it to someone who hasn’t seen it before. I feel like it’s a, I’m not going to fall into the trap of saying, this is the only product like this, but it has its own unique twists with what it can do. And I felt like SEO tools are something everybody has touched at one point or another. So I was using this analogy of, it’s like the s, you know, Semrush of positioning and messaging or Ahrefs, depending on your if you’re a Coke or Pepsi person. But I always felt like that was just a quick way to give a little idea of the fact that it’s both about analyzing your own brand, but it’s also about competitive analysis and being able to see what’s going on in the market or in your landscape, and looking specifically at what your competitors are doing and what their strengths and weaknesses are. So does that resonate with you in terms of, like, a shorthand way, I will say, I don’t. I don’t say that. It’s super explicitly on the website, but it’s been in conversation. Christian Klepp  05:02 No, absolutely, absolutely, that resonated with me. The only part that didn’t resonate with me is that I’m neither a coke or a Pepsi person. I’m more of a ginger ale type of guy. I digress. But yeah, let’s what don’t you share your screen, and let’s walk through this, right? Like, okay, if a marketing person were like, use the platform to do some research on, perhaps that marketers, like own company and the competitors as well, right? Like, what would they do? Clay Ostrom  05:32 Yeah, so that’s, that is, like you were saying, there’s, sort of, I guess, a few different personas of people who would potentially use this. And initially I was thinking a little more about both in house, people who, you know, someone who’s working on a specific brand, digging really deep on their own brand, whether they’re, you know, the marketing lead or whatever, maybe they’re the founder, and then this other role of agency owners, or people who work at an agency where they are constantly having to look at new brands, new categories, and quickly get up to speed on what those brands are doing and what’s the competitive space look like, you know, for that brand. And that’s something that, if you work at an agency, which obviously we both have our own agencies, we do this stuff weekly. I mean, every time a new lead comes in, we have to quickly get up to speed and understand something about what they do. And one of the big gaps that I found, and I’d be curious to kind of hear your thoughts on this, but I’ve had a lot of conversations with other agency owners, and I think one of the biggest gaps is often that brands are just not always that great at explaining their own brand or positioning or differentiation to you, and sometimes they have some documentation around it, but a lot of times they don’t. A lot of it’s word of mouth, and that makes it really hard to do work for them. If whatever you’re doing for them, whether that’s maybe you are working on SEO or maybe you’re working on paid ads or social or content, you have to know what the brand is doing and kind of what they’re again, what their strengths and weaknesses are, so that you can talk about that. I mean, do you come across that a lot in your work? Christian Klepp  07:33 How do I say this without offending anybody? I find, I mean jokes aside, I find, more often than not, in the especially in the B2B space, which is an area that I operate in, I find 888 point five times out of 10. We are dealing with companies that have a they, have a very rude, rudimentary, like, framework of something that remotely resembles some form of branding. And I know that was a very long winded answer, but it’s kind of sort of there, but not really, if you know what I mean. Clay Ostrom  08:17 Yeah. Christian Klepp  08:17 And there have been other extreme cases where they’ve got the logo and the website, and that’s as far as their branding goals. And I would say that had they had all these, this discipline, like branding system and structure in place, then people like maybe people like you and I will be out on a job, right and it’s something, and I’m sure you’ve come across this, and we’ll probably dig into this later, but like you, it’s something I’ve come across several times, especially in the B2B space, where branding is not taken seriously until it becomes serious. I know that sounds super ironic, right, but, and it’s to the point of this platform, right, which we’re going to dig into in a second, but it’s, it’s things, for instance, positioning right, like, are you? Are you, in fact, strategically positioned against competitors? Is your messaging resonating with, I would imagine, especially in the B2B context, with the multiple group target groups that you have, or that your company is, is going after? Right? Is that resonating, or is this all like something that I call the internal high five? You’ve this has all been developed to please internal stakeholders and and then you take it to market, and it just does not, it just does not resonate with the target audience at all. Right? So there’s such a complex plethora of challenges here, right? That people like yourself and like you and I are constantly dealing with, and I think that’s also part of the reason why I would say a platform like this is important, because it helps to not just aggregate data. I mean, certainly it does that too, but it helps. To put things properly, like into perspective at speed. I think that might be, that might be something that you would have talked about later, but it does this at speed, because I think, from my own experience, one of the factors in our world that sometimes works against us is time, right? Clay Ostrom  10:19 No, I totally agree, yeah, and, you know, we’re lucky, I guess would be the word that we are often hired to work on a company strategy with them and help them clarify these things. Christian Klepp  10:33 Absolutely. Clay Ostrom  10:34 There are a million other flavors of agencies out there who are being hired to execute on work for a brand, and not necessarily being brought in to redefine, you know what the brand, you know they’re positioning and their messaging and some of these fundamental things, so they’re kind of stuck with whatever they get. And like you said, a lot of times it’s not much. It might be a logo and a roughly put together website, and maybe not a whole lot else. So, yeah, but I think your other point about speed is that was a huge part of this. I think the market is only accelerating right now, because it’s becoming so much easier to start up new companies and new brands and new products. And now we’ve got vibe coding, so you can technically build a product in a day, maybe launch it the next day, start marketing it, you know, by the weekend. And all of this is creating noise and competition, and it’s all stuff that we have to deal with as marketers. We have to understand the landscape. We’ve got to quickly be able to analyze all these different brands, see where the strengths and weaknesses are and all that stuff. So… Christian Klepp  11:46 Absolutely. Clay Ostrom  11:46 But, yeah, that, I think that the speed piece is a huge part of this for sure. Christian Klepp  11:51 Yeah. So, so we’re okay, so we’re on the I guess this, this will probably be the homepage. So just walk us through what, what a marketing person would do if they want to use this platform, yeah? Clay Ostrom  12:00 So the very first thing you do when you come in, and this was when I initially conceived of this product, one of the things that I really wanted was the ability to have very quick feedback, be able to get analysis for whatever brand you’re looking at, you know, right away to be able to get some kind of, you know, insight or analysis done. So the first thing you can do, and you can do this literally, from the homepage of the website, you can enter in a URL for a brand, come into the product, even before you’ve created an account, you can come in and you can do an initial analysis, so you can put in whatever URL you’re looking at, could be yours, could be a competitor, and run that initial analysis. What we’re looking at here, this is, if you do create an account, this is, this becomes your, as we say, like Home Base, where you can save brands that you’re looking at. You can see your history, all that good stuff. And it just gives you some quick bookmarks so that you can kind of flip back and forth between, maybe it’s your brand, maybe it’s some of the competitors you’re looking at and then it gives you just some quick, kind of high level directional info. And I kind of break it up into these different buckets. Clay Ostrom  13:23 And again, I’d love to kind of hear if this is sort of how you think about it, too. But there’s sort of these different phases when you’re working on a brand. And again, this is sort of from an agency perspective, but you first got the sort of the research and the pitch piece. So this is before maybe you’re even working with them. You’re trying to get an understanding of what they do. Then we have discovery and onboarding, where we’re digging in a little bit deeper. We’re trying to really put together, what does the brand stand for, what are their strengths and weaknesses? And then we have the deeper dive, the strategy and differentiation. And this is where we’re really going in and getting more granular with the specific value points that they offer, doing some of that messaging analysis, finding, finding some of the gaps of the things that they’re talking about or not talking about, and going in deeper. So it kind of break it up into these buckets, based on my experience of how we engage with clients. Does that? Does that make sense to you, like, does that? Christian Klepp  14:28 It does make sense, I think. But what could be helpful for the audience is because this, this almost looks like it’s a pre cooked meal. All right, so what do we do we try another I mean, I think you use Slack for the analysis. Why don’t we use another brand, and then just pop it into that analysis field, and then see what it comes out with. Clay Ostrom  14:51 So the nice thing about this is, if you are looking at a brand that’s been analyzed, you’re going to get the data up really quickly. It’ll be basically pop up instantly. But you can analyze a brand from scratch as well. Just takes about a minute or so, basically, to kind of do some of the analysis. So for the sake of a demo, it’s a little easier just to kind of look at something that we’ve got in there. But if it’s a brand that you know, maybe you’re looking at a competitor for one of your brands, you know, there’s a good chance, because we’ve got about 6000 brands that we’ve analyzed in here, that there’s a good chance there’ll be some info on them. But so this is pipe drive. So whoever’s not familiar Pipedrive is, you know, it’s a CRM  (Customer Relationship Management), it’s, it’s basically, you know, it’s a lighter version of a HubSpot or Salesforce basically track deals and opportunities for business, but this so I flipped over. I don’t know if it was clear there, but I flipped over to this brand brief tab. And this is where we we get, essentially, a high level view of some key points about the brand and and I think about this as this would be something that you would potentially share with a client if you were, you know, working with them and you wanted to review the brand with them and make sure that your analysis is on point, but you’ll see it’s kind of giving you some positioning scores, where you rank from a category perspective, message clarity, and then we’ve got things like a quick overview, positioning summary, who their target persona is, in this case, sales manager, sales operation lead, and some different value points. And then it starts to get a little more granular. We get into like key competitors, Challenger brands. We do a little SWOT (Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, and Threats) analysis, and then maybe one of the more important parts is some of these action items. So what do we do with this? Yeah, and obviously, these are, these are starting points. This is not, it’s not going to come in and, you know, instantly be able to tell you strategically, exactly what to do, but it’s going to give you some ideas of based on the things we’ve seen. Here are some reasonable points that you might want to be looking at to, you know, improve the brand. Make it make it stronger. Christian Klepp  17:13 Gotcha. Gotcha. Now, this is all great clay, but like, I think, for the benefit of the audience, can we scroll back up, please. And let’s just walk through these one by one, because I think it’s important for the audience/potential future users,/ customers of Smoke Ladder, right? To understand, to understand this analysis in greater depth, and also, like, specifically, like, let’s start with a positioning score right, like, out of 100 like, what is this? What is this based on? And how was this analyzed? Let’s start with that. Clay Ostrom  17:48 Yeah, and this is where the platform really started. And I’m going to actually jump over to the positioning tab, because this will give us the all the detail around this particular feature. But this is, this was where I began the product this. I kind of think of this as being, in many ways, sort of the heart and soul of it. And when I mentioned earlier about this being based on our own work and frameworks and how we approach this, this is very much the case with this. This is, you know, the approach we use with the product is exactly how we work with clients when we’re evaluating their positioning. And it’s, it’s basically, it’s built off a series of scores. And what we have here are 24 different points of business value, which, if we zoom in just a little bit down here, we can see things like reducing risk, vision, lowering cost, variety, expertise, stability, etc. So there’s 24 of these that we look at, and it’s meant to be a way that we can look across different brands and compare and contrast them. So it’s creating, like, a consistent way of looking at brands, even if they’re not in the same category, or, you know, have slightly different operating models, etc. But what we do is we go in and we score every brand on each of these 24 points. And if we scroll down here a little bit, we can see the point of value, the exact score they got, the category average, so how it compares against, you know, all the other brands we’ve analyzed, and then a little bit of qualitative information about why they got the score. Christian Klepp  19:27 Sorry, Clay, Can I just jump in for a second so these, these attributes, or these key values that you had in the graph at the top right, like, are these consistent throughout regardless of what brand is being analyzed, or the least change. Clay Ostrom  19:42 It’s consistent. Christian Klepp  19:43 Consistent? Clay Ostrom  19:44 Yeah, and that was one of the sort of strategic decisions we had to make with the product. Was, you know, there’s a, maybe another version of this, where you do different points depending on maybe the category, or, you know, things like that. But I wanted to do it consistent because, again, it allows us to look at every brand through the same lens. It doesn’t mean that every brand you know there are certain points of value that just aren’t maybe relevant for a particular brand, and that’s fine, they just won’t score as highly in those but at least it gives us a consistent way to look at so when you’re looking at 10 different competitors, you know you’ve got a consistent way to look at them together,. Christian Klepp  20:26 Right, right, right. Okay, okay, all right, thanks for that. Now let’s go down to the next section there, where you’ve got, like this table with like four different columns here. So you mentioned that these are being scored against other brands in their category. Like, can you share it with the audience? Like, how many other brands are being analyzed here? Clay Ostrom  20:51 Yeah, well, it depends on the category. So again, we’ve got six, you know, heading towards 7000 brands that we’ve analyzed collectively. Each category varies a little bit, but, you know, some categories, we have more brands than others. But what this allows us to do is, again, to quickly look at this and say, okay, for pipe drive, a big focus for pipe drive is organization, simplification. You know, one of their big value props is we’re an easier tool to use than Salesforce or HubSpot. You can get up to speed really quickly. You don’t have all the setup and configurations and all that kind of stuff. So this is showing us that, yes, like their messaging, their content, their brand, does, in fact, do a good job of making it clear that simplicity is a big part of pipe drive’s message. And they do that by talking about it a lot in their messaging, having case studies, having testimonials, all these things that support it. And that’s how we come up with these scores. Is by saying, like the brand emphasizes these points well, they talk about it clearly, and that’s what we base it on. Christian Klepp  22:04 Okay, okay. Clay Ostrom  22:06 But as you come, I was just gonna say as you come down here, you can see, so the green basically means that they score well above average for that particular point. Yellow is, you know, kind of right around average, or maybe slightly above, and then red means that they’re below average for that particular point. So for example, like variety of tools, they don’t emphasize that as much with pipe drive, maybe compared to, again, like a Salesforce or a HubSpot that has a gazillion tools, pipe drive, that’s not a big focus for them. So they don’t score as highly there, but you can kind of just get a quick view of, okay, here are the things that they’re really strong with, and here are the things that maybe they’re, you know, kind of weak or below average. Christian Klepp  22:58 Yeah, yeah. Well, that’s certainly interesting, because I, you know, I’ve, I’ve used the, I’ve used the platform for analyzing some of my clients, competitor brands. And, you know, when I’m looking at this, like analysis with the scoring, with the scoring sheet, it, I think it will also be interesting perhaps in future, because you’ve got a very detailed breakdown of, okay, the factors and how they’re scored, and what the brand value analysis is also, because, again, in the interest of speed and time, it’d be great if the platform can also churn out maybe a one to two sentence like, summary of what is this data telling us, right? Because I’m thinking back to my early days as a product manager, and we would spend hours, like back then on Excel spreadsheets. I’m dating myself a little bit here, but um, and coming up with this analysis and charts, but presenting that to senior management, all they wanted to know was the one to two sentence summary of like, come on. What are you telling me with all these charts, like, what is the data telling you that we need to know? Right? Clay Ostrom  24:07 I know it’s so funny. We again, as strategists and researchers, we love to nerd out about the granular details, but you’re right. When you’re talking to a leader at a business, it does come down to like, okay, great. What do we do? And so, and I flipped back over to slacks. I knew I had already generated this but, but we’re still in the positioning section here, but we have this get insights feature. So basically it will look at all those scores and give you kind of, I think, similar to what you’re describing. Like, here’s three takeaways from what we’re seeing. Okay, okay, great, yeah, so we don’t want to leave you totally on your own to have to figure it all out. We’ll give you, give you a little helping hand. Christian Klepp  24:53 Yeah. You don’t want to be like in those western movies, you’re on your own kid. Clay Ostrom  24:59 Yeah. We try not to strand you again. There’s a lot of data here. I think that’s one of the strengths and and challenges with the platform, is that we try to give you a lot of data. And for some people, you may not want to have to sift through all of it. You might want just sort of give me the three points here. Christian Klepp  25:19 Absolutely, absolutely. And at the very least they can start pointing you in the right direction, and then you could be, you could then, like, through your own initiative, and perhaps dig a little bit deeper and perhaps find some other insights that may be, may be relevant, right? Clay Ostrom  25:35 Totally. Christian Klepp  25:36 Hey, it’s Christian Klepp here. We’ll get back to the episode in a second. But first, I’d like to tell you about a new series that we’re launching on our show. As the B2B landscape evolves, marketers need to adapt and leverage the latest marketing tools and software to become more efficient. Enter B2B Marketers on a Mission Marketing Demo Lab where experts discuss the latest tools and software that empower you to become a better B2B marketer. Tune in as we chat with product experts. Provide unbiased product reviews, give advice and deliver insights into real world applications and actionable tips on tools and technologies for B2B marketing. Subscribe to the Marketing Demo Lab, YouTube channel and B2B Marketers on a Mission, on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Christian Klepp  26:21 All right. Now, back to the show, if we can, if we could jump back, sorry, to the, I think it was the brand brief, right? Like, where we where we started out, and I said, let’s, let’s dig deeper. Okay, so then, then we have, okay, so we talked about positioning score. Now we’re moving on to category rank and message clarity score. What does that look like? Clay Ostrom  26:41 Yeah. So the category rank is, it’s literally just looking at the positioning score that you’ve gotten for the brand and then telling you within this category, where do you sort of fall in the ranking, essentially, or, like, you know, how do we, you know, for comparing the score against all the competitors, where do you fall? So you can see, with Slack, they’re right in the middle. And it’s interesting, because with a product like Slack, even though we all now know what slack is and what it does and everything. Christian Klepp  27:18 Yeah. Clay Ostrom  27:19 The actual messaging and content that they have now, I think maybe doesn’t do as good of a job as it maybe did once upon a time, and it’s gotten as products grow and brands grow, they tend to get more vague, a little more broad with what they talk about, and that kind of leads to softer positioning. So that’s sort of what we’re seeing reflected here. And then the third score is the message clarity score, which we can jump into, like, a whole different piece. Christian Klepp  27:48 Four on a tennis not a very high score, right? Clay Ostrom  27:52 Yeah. And again, I think it’s a product, of, we can kind of jump into that section. Christian Klepp  27:57 Yeah, let’s do that, yeah. Clay Ostrom  27:59 But it’s, again, a product, I think of Slack being now a very mature product that is has gotten sort of a little vague, maybe a little broader, with their messaging. But the message clarity score, we basically have kind of two parts to this on the left hand side are some insights that we gather based on the messaging. So what’s your category, quick synopsis of the product. But then we also do some things, like… Christian Klepp  28:33 Confusing part the most confusing. Clay Ostrom  28:36 Honestly to me, as I get I’d love to hear your experience with this, but coming into a new brand, this is sometimes one of the most enlightening parts, because it shows me quickly where some gaps in what we’re talking about, and in this case, just kind of hits on what we were just saying a minute ago. Of the messaging is overloaded with generic productivity buzzwords, fails to clearly differentiate how Slack is better than email or similar tools, etc. But also, this is another one that I really like, and I use this all the time, which is the casual description. So rather than this technical garbage jargon, you know, speak, just give me. Give it to me in plain English, like we’re just chatting. And so this description of it’s a workplace chat app for teams to message, collaborate, share files. Like, okay, cool. Like, yeah, you know, I get it. Yeah, I already know what slack is. But if I didn’t, that would tell me pretty well. Christian Klepp  29:33 Absolutely, yeah, yeah. No, my experience with this is has been, you know, you and I have been in the branding space for a while. So for the trained eye, when you look at messaging, you’ll know if it’s good or not, right. And we come I mean, I’m sure you do the same clay, but I also come to my own like conclusions based on experience of like, okay, so why do I think that that’s good messaging, or why do I think that that’s confusing messaging? Or it falls short, and why and how can that be improved? But it’s always good to have validation with either with platforms like this, where you have a you have AI, or you have, you have a software that you can use that analyzes, like, for example, like the messaging on a website, and it dissects that and says, Well, okay, so this is what they’re getting, right? So there’s a scoring for that, so it’s in the green, and then this is, this is where it gets confusing, right? So even you run that through, you run that through the machine, and the machine analyzes it as like, Okay, we can’t clearly, clearly define what it is they’re doing based on the messaging, right? And for me, that’s always a it’s good. It’s almost like getting a second doctor’s opinion, right? And then you go, Aha. So I we’ve identified the symptoms now. So let’s find the penicillin, right? Like, let’s find the remedy for this, right? Clay Ostrom  30:56 Yeah, well, and I like what you said there, because part of the value, I think, with this is it’s an objective perspective on the brand, so it doesn’t have any baggage. It’s coming in with fresh eyes, the same way a new customer would come into your website, where they don’t know really much about you, and they have to just take what you’re giving at face value about what you present. And we as people working on brands get completely blinded around what’s actually working, what’s being communicated. There’s so much that we take for granted about what we already know about the brand. And this comes in and just says, Okay, I’m just, I’m just taking what you give me, and I’m going to tell you what I see, and I see some gaps around some of these things. You know, I don’t have the benefit of sitting in your weekly stand up meeting and hearing all the descriptions of what you’re actually doing. Christian Klepp  31:59 I’m sorry to jump in. I’m interested to know, like, just, just based on what we’ve been reviewing so far, like, what has your experience been showing this kind of analysis to clients, and how do they respond to some of this data, for example, that you know, you’re walking us through right now? Clay Ostrom  32:18 Yeah, I think it’s been interesting. Honestly, I think it can sometimes feel harsh. And I think again, as someone who’s both run an agency and also built worked on brands, we get attached to our work on an emotional level. Christian Klepp  32:42 Absolutely. Clay Ostrom  32:42 Even if we think about it as, you know, this is just work, and it’s, you know, whatever, we still build up connections with our work and we want it to be good. And so I think there’s sometimes a little bit of a feeling of wow, like that’s harsh, or I would have expected or thought we would have done better or scored better in certain areas, but that is almost always followed up with but I’m so glad to know where, where we’re struggling, because now I can fix it. I can actually know what to focus on to fix, and that, to me, is what it’s all about, is, yes, there’s a little bit of feelings attached to some of these things, maybe, but at the end of the day, we really want it to be good. We want it to be clear. We don’t want to be a 4 out of 10. We want to be a 10 out of 10. And what specifically do we need to do to get there? And that’s really what we’re trying to reveal with this. So I think, you know, everybody’s a little different, but I would say the reactions are typically a mix of that. It’s like, maybe an ouch, but a Oh, good. Let’s work on it. Christian Klepp  33:55 Absolutely, absolutely. Okay. So we’ve got brand summary, we’ve got fundamentals, then quality of messaging is the other part of it, right? Clay Ostrom  34:02 So, yeah, so this, this is, this is where the actual 4 out of 10 comes. We have these 10 points that we look at and we say, Okay, are you communicating these things clearly? Are you communicating who your target customer is, your category, your offering, where you’re differentiated benefits? Do you have any kind of concrete claim about what you do to support you know what you’re what you’re selling? Is the messaging engaging? Is it concise? You’ll see here a 7% on concise. That’s basically telling us that virtually no brands do a good job of being concise. Only about 7% get a green check mark on this, and kind of similar with the jargon and the vague words big struggle points with almost every brand. Christian Klepp  34:55 Streamline collaboration. Clay Ostrom  34:58 So we can see here with Slack. You know some of the jargon we got, KPIs (Key Performance Indicators), MQLs (Marketing Qualified Lead), if you’re in the space, you could argue like, oh, I kind of know what those things are. But depending on your role, you may not always know. In something like Salesforce marketing cloud, unless you’re a real Salesforce nerd, you probably have no idea what that is. But again, it’s just a way to quickly identify some of those weak points, things that we could improve to make our message more clear. Christian Klepp  35:27 Yes, yes. Okay, so that was the messaging analysis correct? Clay Ostrom  35:33 Yeah. Christian Klepp  35:33 Yeah. Okay. So what else have we got? Clay Ostrom  35:36 Yeah, so I think one other thing we could look at just for a sec, is differentiation, and this is this kind of plays off of what we looked at a minute ago with the positioning scores. But this is a way for us to look head to head with two different brands. So in this case, we’ve got Slack in the red and we’ve got Discord in the greenish blue. And I think of these, these patterns, as sort of the fingerprint of your brand. So where you Where are you strong? Where are you weak? And if we can overlay those two fingerprints on top of each other, we can see, where do we have advantages, and where does our competitor have advantages? So if we come down, we can sort of see, and this is again, for the nerds like me, to be able to come in and go deep, do kind of a deep dive on specifically, why did, why does Discord score better than Slack in certain areas. And at the bottom here we can see a kind of a quick summary. So slack is stronger in simplification, saving time, Discord has some better messaging around generating revenue, lowering costs, marketability. But again, this gives us a way to think about what are the things we want to double down on? So what do we want to actually be known for in the market? Because we can’t be known for everything. You know, buyers can maybe only remember a couple things about us. What are those couple things where we’re really strong, where we really stand out, and we’ve got some separation from the competitors. Christian Klepp  37:18 Right, okay, okay, just maybe we take a step back here, because I think this is great. It’s very detailed. It gets a bit granular, but I think it’s also going back to a conversation that you and I had previously about, like, Okay, why is it so important to be armed with this knowledge, especially if you’re in the marketing role, or perhaps even an agency talking to a potential client going in there already armed with the information about their competitors. And we were talking about this being a kind of like a trust building mechanism, right? For lack of a better description, right? Clay Ostrom  38:03 Yeah, I think to me, what I like about this, and again, this does come out of 10 years of doing work, this kind of work with clients as well, is it’s so easy to fall into a space of soft descriptions around things like positioning and just sort of using vague, you know, wordings or descriptions, and when you can actually put a number on it, which, again, it’s subjective. This isn’t. This isn’t an objective metric, but it’s a way for us to compare and contrast. It allows us to have much more productive conversations with clients, where we can say we looked at your brand, we we what based on our analysis, we see that you’re scoring a 10 and a 9 on simplicity and organization, for example. Is that accurate to you like do you think that’s what you all are emphasizing the most? Does that? Does that resonate and at the same time, we can say, but your competitors are really focused on there. They have a strong, strong message around generating revenue and lowering costs for their customers. Right now, you’re not really talking about that. Is that accurate? Is that like, what you is that strategically, is that what you think you should be doing so really quickly, I’ve now framed a conversation that could have been very loose and kind of, you know, well, what do you think your strategy is about? What do you know? And instead, I can say, we see you being strong in these three points. We see your competitors being strong in these three points. What do you think about that? And I think that kind of clarity just makes the work so much more productive with clients, or just again, working on your own brand internally. So what do you think about that kind of perspective? Christian Klepp  40:08 Yeah, no, no, I definitely agree with that. It’s always and I’ve been that type of person anyway that you know you go into a especially with somebody that hasn’t quite become a client yet, right? One of the most important things is also, how should I put this? Certainly the trust building part of it needs to be there. The other part is definitely a demonstration of competence and ability, but it’s also that you’ve been proactive and done your homework, versus like, Okay, I’m I’m just here as an order taker, right? And let’s just tell me what to do, and I’ll do it right? A lot and especially, I think this has been a trend for a long time already, but a lot of the clients that I’ve worked with now in the past, they want to, they’re looking for a partner that’s not just thinking with them, it’s someone that’s thinking ahead of them. And this type of work, you know what we’re seeing here on screen, this is the type of work that I would consider thinking ahead of them, right? Clay Ostrom  41:18 No, I agree. I think you framed that really well. Of we’re trying to build trust, because if we’re going to make any kind of recommendations around a change or a shift, they have to believe that we know what we’re talking about, that we’re competent, that we’ve done the work. And I think I agree with you. I think like this, it’s kind of funny, like we all, I think, on some base level, are attracted to numbers and scores. It just gives us something to latch on to. But I think it also, like you said, it gives you a feeling that you’ve done your work, that you’ve done your homework, you’ve studied, you’ve you’ve done some analysis that they themselves may have never done on this level. And that’s a big value. Christian Klepp  42:08 Yes, and a big part of the reason just to, just to build on what you said, a big part of the reason why they haven’t done this type of work is because it’s not so much. The cost is certainly one part of it, but it’s the time, it’s a time factor and the resource and the effort that needs to be put into it. Because, you know, like, tell me if you’ve never heard this one before, but there are some, there are some companies that we’ve been working with that don’t actually have a clearly, like, you know, a clear document on who their their target personas are, yeah, or their or their ICPs, never mind the buyer’s journey map. They don’t, they don’t even have the personas mapped out, right? Clay Ostrom  42:52 100% Yeah, it’s, and it’s, I think you’re right. It’s, it’s a mix of time and it’s a mix of just experience where, if you are internal with a brand, you don’t do this kind of work all the time. You might do it at the beginning. Maybe you do a check in every once in a while, but you need someone who’s done this a lot with a lot of different brands so that they can give you guidance through this kind of framework. But so it’s, you know, so some of it is a mix of, you know, we don’t have the time always to dig in like this. But some of it is we don’t even know how to do it, even if we did have the time. So it’s hopefully giving, again, providing some different frameworks and different ways of looking at it. Christian Klepp  43:41 Absolutely, absolutely. So okay, so we’ve gone through. What is it now, the competitor comparison. What else does the platform provide us that the listeners and the audience should be paying attention to here? Clay Ostrom  43:55 So I’ll show you two more quick things. So one is this message building section. So this is… Christian Klepp  44:03 Are you trying to put me out of a job here Clay? Clay Ostrom  44:07 Well, I’ll say this. So far in my experience with this, it’s not going to put us out of a job, but it is going to hopefully make our job easier and better. It’s going to make us better at the work we do. And that’s really, I think that’s, I think that’s kind of, most people’s impression of AI at this point is that it’s not quite there to replace us, but it’s sure, certainly can enhance what we do. Christian Klepp  44:36 Yeah, you’ll excuse me, I couldn’t help but throw that one out. Clay Ostrom  44:38 Yeah, I know, trust me, I’m this. It’s like I’m building a product that, in a sense, is undercutting, you know, the work that I do. So it is kind of a weird thing, but this message building section, which is a new part of the platform. It will come in, and you can see on the right hand side. And there’s sort of a quick summary of all these different elements that we’ve already analyzed. And then it’s going to give you some generated copy ideas, including, if I zoom in a little bit here, we’ve got an eyebrow category. This is again for Slack. It’s giving us a headline idea, stay informed without endless emails. Sub headline call to action, three challenges that your customers are facing, and then three points about your solution that help address those for customers. So it’s certainly not writing all of your copy for you, but if you’re starting from scratch, or you’re working on something new, or even if you’re trying to refresh a brand. I think this can be helpful to give you some messaging that’s hopefully clear. That’s something that I think a lot of messaging misses, especially in B2B, it’s, it’s not always super clear, like what you even do. Christian Klepp  45:56 Don’t get me started. Clay Ostrom  45:59 So hopefully it’s clear. It’s, you know, again, it’s giving you some different ideas. And that you’ll see down here at the bottom, you can, you can iterate on this. So we’ve got several versions. You can actually come in and, you know, you can edit it yourself. So if you say, like, well, I like that, but not quite that, you know, I can, you know, get my human touch on it as well. But yeah, so it’s a place to iterate on message. Christian Klepp  46:25 You can kind of look at it like, let’s say, if you’re writing a blog article, and this will give you the outline, right? Yeah. And then most of the AI that I’ve worked with to generate outlines, they’re not quite there. But again, if you’re starting from zero and you want to go from zero to 100 Well, that’ll, that’ll at least get you to 40 or 50, right? But I’m curious to know, because we’re looking at this now, and I think this, I mean, for me, this is, this is fascinating, but, like, maybe, maybe this will be part of your next iteration. But will this, will this generate messaging that’s already SEO optimized. Clay Ostrom  47:02 You know, it’s not specifically geared towards that, but I would say that it ends up being maybe more optimized than a lot of other messaging because it puts such an emphasis on clarity, it naturally includes words and phrases that I think are commonly used in the space more so than you know, maybe just kind of typical off the shelf Big B2B messaging, Christian Klepp  47:27 Gotcha. I had a question on the target persona that you’ve got here on screen, right? So how does the platform generate the information that will then populate that field because, and when I’m just trying to think about like, you know, because I’ve been, I’ve been in the space for as long as you have, and the way that I’ve generated target personas in the past was not by making a wild guess about, like, you know, looking at the brand’s website. It’s like having conducting deep customer research and listening to hours and hours of recordings, and from there, generating a persona. And this has done it in seconds. So… Clay Ostrom  48:09 Yeah, it’s so the way the system works in a couple different layers. So it does an initial analysis, where it does positioning, messaging analysis and category analysis, then you can generate the persona on top of that. So it takes all the learnings that it got from the category, from the product, from your messaging, and then develops a persona around that. And it’s, of course, able to also pull in, you know, the AI is able to reference things that it knows about the space in general. But I have found, and this is true. I was just having a conversation with someone who works on a very niche brand for a very specific audience, and I was showing him what it had output. And I said, Tell me, like, Don’t hold back. Like, is this accurate? He said, Yeah, this is, like, shockingly accurate for you know, how we view our target customer. So I think it’s pretty good. It’s not again, not going to be perfect. You’re going to need to do some work, and you still got to do the research, but, but, yeah. Christian Klepp  49:13 Okay, fantastic, fantastic. How do, I guess there’s the option, I see it there, like, download the PDF. So anything that’s analyzed on the platform can then be exported in a PDF format, right? Like, like, into a report. Clay Ostrom  49:28 Yeah, right now you can export the messaging analysis, or, sorry, the the messaging ideation that you’ve done, and then in the brand brief you can also, you can download a PDF of the brand brief as well. So, those are the two main areas. I’m still working on some additional exports of data so that people can pull it into a spreadsheet and do some other stuff with it. Christian Klepp  49:49 Fantastic, fantastic. That’s awesome, Clay. I’ve got a couple more questions before I let you go. But this has been, this has been amazing, right? Like and I really hope that whoever’s in the one listening and, most importantly, watching this, I hope that you really do consider like, you know, taking this for a test drive, right? How many I might have asked you this before, because, you know, I am somebody that does use, you know, that does a lot of this type of research. But how much time would you say companies would save by using Smoke Ladder? Clay Ostrom  50:24 It’s a good question. I feel like I’m starting to get some feedback around that with from our users, but I mean, for me personally, I would typically spend an hour or two just to get kind of up to speed initially, with a brand and kind of look at some of their competitors. If I’m doing a deep dive, though, if I’m actually doing some of the deeper research work, it could be several hours per client. So I don’t know. On a given week, it might depend on how many clients you’re talking to. Could be anywhere from a few hours to 10 hours or more, depending on how much work you’re doing. But, yeah, I think it’s a decent amount. Christian Klepp  51:07 Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, this definitely does look like a time saver. Here comes my favorite question, which you’re gonna look at me like, Okay, I gotta, I gotta. Clay Ostrom  51:17 Now bring it on. Let’s go. Christian Klepp  51:22 Folks that are not familiar with Smoke Ladder are gonna look at this, um, and before they actually, um, take it upon themselves to, like, watch, hopefully, watch this video on our channel. Um, they’re gonna look at that and ask themselves, Well, what is it that Smoke Ladder does that? You know that other AI couldn’t do, right, like, so I guess what I’m trying to say is, like, Okay, why would they use? How does the platform differ from something like ChatGPT, Perplexity or Claude, right? To run a brand analysis? Clay Ostrom  52:00 Yeah, no, I think it’s a great question. I think it’s sort of the it’s going to be the eternal AI question for every product that has an AI component. And I would say to me, it’s three things. So one is the data, which we talked about, and I didn’t show you this earlier, but there is a search capability in here to go through our full archive of all the brands we’ve analyzed, and again, we’ve analyzed over 6000 brands. So the data piece is really important here, because it means we’re not just giving you insights and analysis based on the brand that you’re looking at now, but we can compare and contrast against all the other brands that we’ve looked at in the space, and that’s something that you’re not going to get by just using some off the shelf standard LLM  (Large Language Model) and doing some, you know, some quick prompts with that. The next one, I think, to me that’s important is it’s the point of view of the product and the brand. Like I said, this is built off of 10 plus years of doing positioning and messaging work in the space. So you’re getting to tap into that expertise and that approach of how we do things and building frameworks that make this work easier and more productive that you wouldn’t get, or you wouldn’t know, just on your own. And then the last one, the last point, which is sort of the kind of like the generic software answer, is you get a visual interface for this stuff. It’s the difference between using QuickBooks versus a spreadsheet. You can do a lot of the same stuff that you do in QuickBooks and a spreadsheet, but wouldn’t you rather have a nice interface and some easy buttons to click that make your job way, way easier and do a lot of the work for you and also be able to present it in a way that’s digestible and something you could share with clients? So the visual component in the UI is sort of that last piece. Christian Klepp  54:01 Absolutely. I mean, it’s almost like UX and UI one on one. That’s, that’s pretty much like a big part of, I think what it is you’re trying to build here, right? Clay Ostrom  54:13 Yeah, exactly. It’s just it’s making all of those things that you might do in an LLM just way, way easier. You know, you basically come in, put in your URL and click a button, and you’re getting access to all the data and all the insights and all this stuff so. Christian Klepp  54:29 Absolutely, absolutely okay. And as we wrap this up, this has been a fantastic conversation, by the way, how can the audience start using Smoke Ladder, and how can they get in touch with you if they have questions, and hopefully good questions. Clay Ostrom  54:47 Yeah, so you can, if you go to https://smokeladder.com/ you can, you can try it out. Like I said, you can basically go to the homepage, put in a URL and get started. You don’t even have to create an account to do the initial analysis. But you can create FREE account. You can dig in and see, you know, play around with all the features, and if you use it more, you know, we give you a little bit of a trial period. And if you use it beyond that, then you can pay and continue to use it, but, but you can get a really good flavor of it for free. Christian Klepp  55:16 Fantastic, fantastic. Oh, last question, because, you know, it’s looking me right in the face now, industry categories. How many? How many categories can be analyzed on the platform? Clay Ostrom  55:26 Yeah, yeah. So right now, we have 23 categories in the system currently, which sounds like a lot, but when you start to dig into especially B2B, it’s we will be evolving that and continuing to add more, but currently, there’s 23 different categories of businesses in there. Christian Klepp  55:46 All right, fantastic, fantastic. Clay, man. This has been so awesome. Thank you so much for your time and for your patience and walking us through this, this incredible platform that you’ve built and continue to build. And you know, I’m excited to continue using this as it evolves. Clay Ostrom  56:06 Thank you. Yeah, no. Thanks so much. And you know, if anybody, you know, anybody who tries it out, tests it out, please feel free to reach out. We have, you know, contact info on there. You can also hit me up on LinkedIn. I spend a lot of time there, but I would love feedback, love getting notes, love hearing what’s working, what’s not, all those things. So yeah, anytime I’m always open. Christian Klepp  56:30 All right, fantastic. Once again, Clay, thanks for your time. Take care, stay safe and talk to you soon. Clay Ostrom  56:36 Thanks so much. Talk to you soon. Christian Klepp  56:37 All right. Bye for now.

How to Optimize Your PPC Campaigns for Maximum Impact Every Pay-Per-Click campaign has symptoms. While some are mild, others can be critical. With the B2B marketing environment becoming more competitive and as budgets continue to shrink, ensuring your PPC campaigns are well thought out and “healthy” is imperative. So how can B2B marketing teams ensure they run high-performing PPC campaigns? That's why we're talking to Serge Nguele (Founder, Your PPC Doctor), who shares proven strategies and expert insights on how to optimize your PPC campaigns for maximum impact. During our conversation, Serge emphasized the value of understanding PPC as a tool to test market assumptions and validate messaging. He also highlighted common pitfalls that B2B marketers should avoid such as launching campaigns without a clear strategy, relying on poor or incomplete tracking, and generic ad copy that doesn't resonate. He advised that teams must fix their tracking, define what business success looks like, segment audiences with intention, and relentlessly test to discover what drives conversions. Serge stressed the importance of having a comprehensive, full-funnel approach to maximize the potential of PPC campaigns through Google and Microsoft ads. He also shared his “no excuses, no complaints, no self-pity” philosophy to illustrate the mindset required to drive stronger results and leverage the true potential of PPC. https://youtu.be/oSmgdh2Jfgw Topics discussed in episode: [2:13] The importance of PPC in B2B marketing [4:49] Some common misconceptions and pitfalls in PPC [15:04] How B2B marketers can avoid major PPC pitfalls [23:11] Practical steps to optimize PPC campaigns for predictable results Fix your tracking Define success in business terms Segment your audience in a smart way Differentiate messaging based on audience's stage in the funnel Testing relentlessly [29:22] How AI is reshaping PPC and what B2B marketers must prepare for Companies and links mentioned: Serge Nguele on LinkedIn Your PPC Doctor Transcript Christian Klepp  00:01 Every pay per click campaign has symptoms. Some are mild, while others are critical. With the marketing landscape becoming more competitive and budgets shrinking, ensuring your PPC (Pay-Per-Click) campaigns are well thought out and healthy is imperative. So how can marketing teams ensure they optimize their PPC campaigns for maximum impact? Welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers in a Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp. Today, I’ll be talking to Serge Nguele, who will be answering this question. He’s the founder at your PPC doctor who specializes in implementing PPC solutions for companies. Tune in to find out more about what this B2B marketers mission is. Okay, and here we go. Mr. Serge Nguele, welcome to the show.  Serge Nguele  00:49 Thank you for having me, Christian. How are you today? Christian Klepp  00:52 I’m great, and I’m really looking forward to this conversation, because I’ll be honest with you, I was looking through the archive of all the past episodes, and I have to say nobody has been on the show that is going to talk about this topic, so this is the first time. Serge Nguele  01:05 Oh, yeah, good to hear. We’ll try to bring some value to all the millions of you know listener out there. Christian Klepp  01:13 Absolutely, absolutely. So let’s dive in, because I think this is going to be an interesting topic. And I don’t know about you, perhaps you run across this many times, but in my space and in my network, the moment people hear pay per click or PPC, they get a little bit like, I don’t know. Oh, I’m not sure. And this is part of the reason, a big part of the reason why I’ve asked somebody like yourself to come on the show. It’s to take the ickiness out of this topic and get them to understand why it’s important, right? So let’s dive into the first question. Okay, so Serge, you’re on a mission to listen. I love this one. Listen, diagnose and prescribe the right paperclip solutions for B2B companies. So for this conversation, let’s focus on the topic of how to optimize your PPC campaigns for maximum impact. So I’m going to kick off this conversation with the following question, what is it about PPC that you wish more people understood? Serge Nguele  02:16 Yeah, thanks. Yeah. Thanks, Christian for your question, and to quickly touch on what you’ve said about PPC. That’s the story of my life. You know, when people are asking, what do you do? And I will say, Pay Per Click, I will start explaining, you know, and they will just nod, and I will be like, not quite sure they got it, but you know, the quick way would be just to tell them, whenever you search for anything online, you go on Google or whichever search engine. And we’ll touch on it, there is not only Google, you know, when we when it comes to PPC, you type your keyword, and you will see a lot of links coming and the one with a little ad, which means advertising that’s pay per click. Ah, they would say, Yeah, that’s fine. Serge Nguele  03:03 But to come to your question when it’s come to PPC, really, what I wish most marketers are understanding is that PPC, which stands for pay per click, and it’s pay per click, because whenever you type a keyword and you click on the link coming there is someone paying the advertiser, not usually the user. That’s why it’s pay per click. And what is good to I wish many people you know understood about it is that PPC it’s about buying time to test your market assumptions. Because, yeah, all of us, all the businesses, it’s really happening, not when you have the click, but it’s after the click. What’s happening there. So when done right? PPC is the fastest, one of the fastest way I know of to validate the messaging, your offer, your positioning, and I wish more marketers understood that PPC is in a silo. It’s a feedback engine, really, and when you use it to inform your market, product fit your sales messaging, or even your customer experiences. It really goes beyond clicks, and that’s where you get the magic out of PPC. Christian Klepp  04:30 Yeah, that’s a really good way of putting it. Serge, and thanks for sharing that. We’re going to touch on this, I think even more later on. But like just you know, from a very top level perspective. Why do you think a lot of people feel, even marketers, feel that PPC is a waste of marketing investment? Serge Nguele  04:49 Yes, with this one, if I’m taking from advertiser, let’s say you Christian, you are, you know, a business person, the way. Well. Yeah, when it’s coming to PPC, it’s fair to talk more about Google, because, yeah, Google is having 90% of the market. So we will say Google, but Google is not the world. PPC has rules here a bit later. So let’s say what Google has done over the year is to really make it easy for pretty much anyone on the planet to be in a position to choose a few keyword enter the credit card, and in a matter of minutes, they would have another running showing up to people. So that’s the easy part, but that’s not doing PPC, and what is happening out of it, soon enough, they will realize, Okay, we are having a lot of clicks, but not what we are expecting, which means sales, or whatever is that is making their bottom line. And a lot of client I would be seeing advertiser. It will be after that phase where they found them themselves, you know, out of pocket of 100, if not 1000s, of click. And they will all, all of them. They will come like, PPC doesn’t work. And I would say, yeah, it’s normal for it not to work, if you because it’s a job, you know, I’m not here to defend, you know, my job, but, yeah, it’s taking time to be a PPC expert. So really, for me, starting from the beginning, where people are doing what they are not meant to do is not like me. You know, tomorrow I won’t be going out there and say I’m a podcast host. You know, that will be an insult on, you know, all the learning you went through, you know, to be where you are. So for me, that’s really the key problem. So basically, it’s, yeah, it’s a West because a lot of unqualified people, and I’m saying this, you know, respectfully, are just, you know, wasting budget, essentially. Christian Klepp  07:16 Yeah, so what I’m hearing you say is, like part of it is certainly a lack of expertise. The other one is also, perhaps even a lack of strategy, and we’re going to talk about that later on in the conversation, but that is a great segue to the next question about key pitfalls that you think B2B marketers should avoid when it comes to PPC. So what are those key pitfalls, and what should they be doing instead? Serge Nguele  07:38 Yes, and this will be complementing my answer, because, yeah, I focus it on advertiser directly. But let’s say when PPC experts are doing are running campaigns for their clients. So this is to this question to as mainly PPC has said, it’s one of the quickest way to really generate clicks out there. That’s fine, but that just the beginning, but even before getting there. So it’s the strategy beforehand, because, yeah, it’s quite easy to set the keyword, generate click and realize the website is not ready. The offer is not what it was supposed to be, and it’s bringing us, you know, to really plan before even starting creating your first campaign. That means the strategy. What is your product? Are you understanding your market? What’s your positioning your competition. What are you bringing to the market? So that’s the strategy. Once you clear with it, it will make it easy for you to say, Okay, I’m understanding the market. This is my offer. This is what I’m bringing, different, you know, in the market space. And now this is the strategy, the approach I’m going to use to reach out to those people. Where are those people? Even, you know, searching for the product or service I’m going to promote online. Because, yeah, when we say PPC, it’s a full funnel.  Serge Nguele  09:16 If we take Google, for example, people will be having multiple touch point to see your product. Yeah, I’ve been talking more about keywords, but there is a lot more than that. And if I ask you, how are you searching online? You are not only typing keyword, but you are self advertising because you’ve given some information about who you are, and search engine and marketing platform are having those information about you, your age, your job, how much you earn, all of those inside are what would be part of the strategy, how you approach market.  Serge Nguele  10:01 Now, once that is done properly, and let’s say the companies, company is already running it’s how are you measuring success? And there it will be all the vanity metrics. So okay, it’s good to have impression clicks, but what about the bottom line? Because, yeah, if you are investing, who says investment? Expect a return out of that investment? So if you measure only how many people are clicking on your website, that’s you are missing the point. So question would be, how many are converting whatever is that you know you define as a conversion.  Serge Nguele  10:44 Now, another part would be how you set your campaign. I said, how easy Google could, you know, make it to create a PPC campaign, they have also a lot of automatic function that have. This is not the point. I’m not here, you know, to do a very cheap Google bashing. But, I mean, yeah, this platform are having, well, I will say polite, just insane, you know, feature making it just kind of waste of budget, you know, where you’ll have the keyword targeting the, you know, network you shouldn’t be, you know, advertising on to sell it. So do setting and also aligning to the sales objective. So those are, you know, a few ways. So I said quite a lot. To bring it more into structure, I would say, first of all, it’s strategy before even, you know, thinking of creating the campaign. You have your strategy, and then once your company are there, I said, but yeah, I would keep on repeating it, the clicking, just the beginning of it. So what are you measuring? So having, you know, real matrix, not vanity metrics like click, CTR  (Click-Through Rate) and then setting your campaigns. A lot of advertisers are on set and forget, you know, not doing anything. And guess what? It wouldn’t work, you know, because you have to optimize continuously and then align with business goals. Christian Klepp  12:33 Absolutely, absolutely no. I’ve been writing furiously as you’re talking, but like what I’m hearing you say, and I think it’s absolutely right but people tend to forget that PPC, and in fact, a lot of these other initiatives, they’re all part of an ecosystem, right? And it’s all you all. You have to think about it like, Okay, so where is this going to go? Because the, as you rightfully said, the click is just the beginning. When they click, where are they going? Where are they going to land? Is it going to be a landing page? Is it going to be an ad? And after they’ve scanned the content on that said page or that ad, what do you want them to do? So what’s the call to action? Where are you going to funnel them from there after that? What’s the follow through? So it almost seems to me like this has to all be mapped out. It doesn’t just stop with PPC, right? Serge Nguele  13:21 Yes, and even there quickly, before you asked your other question, yeah, sorry to interrupt. I will say it’s all tied to the strategy, because, yeah, could be a lot of things. You know, you can use PPC because you want to test something on your website. You can use PPC because you want to complement what you are doing with your organic traffic strategy. Most recently, I had, I was referred a prospective client, and they came to me saying, we are doing well on our organic search. Now we want to bring PPC to complement all of that and expand. So, yeah, you know, all of those things are part of the strategy. So, and it will be different if you are coming because you want to test something on your landing page that’s been, for example, your main metrics. To go back to what I’ve said, clicks. Your clicks wouldn’t be a vanity matrix, because you really want people you know to come there and you know, validate whatever you want on the landing page. Whereas, if you are there to generate leads, probably you want, you know, content yourself only with clicks. You will want people you know to fill your lead form. You know. Christian Klepp  14:43 Absolutely, absolutely so sales you’ve tried. You’ve touched on this already, but like, let’s expand on it further. So what do you think are the main causes of underperforming paid search campaigns? So from your experience, what do you think the real underlying problems are, and I suppose one of them is a lack of strategy. Certainly.  Serge Nguele  15:04 Yeah, it’s starting from there. Christian, yeah, you said it a lack of strategy. But okay, let us assume you are there, you know, you are getting clicks. So there one of the main cause of on the performing campaign, I would say it’s that whenever I audit account, a lot of them are just flying kind of blind. That means the tracking is even, you know, wrong. This is something I should start with it, you know. But he has a good case to, you know, talk about it. It’s, yeah, when you have the campaign, so you need to make sure you track every single click. Otherwise, how would you even know what is performing? So this is the main cause of underperforming campaigns. For me, it’s weight tracking and measurement, and that’s mean, if you can’t trust your data, you can’t optimize and at this point, because, yeah, you have business people listening to this an important part, an important one, you know, a lot of people are not advertising. It’s also the invalid traffic. You have a lot of, you know, especially now with AI and all boats, you know, we have are there. And this there is a staggering, you know, number of invalid traffic so, and this is, you know, a proper study, so in certain vertical more than 20% of click received are all invalid. So that’s mean, if you factor that to properly understand that mean whatever you are receiving, 20% of those clicks are wrong. So that’s mean you’re working with wrong data. That’s mean everything that would follow after that are just, you know, assumption based on 20% of you know wrong information. So this is an important one.  Serge Nguele  17:09 And I would say, has advertiser, and this is something, for example, yeah, I don’t want to oversell, but what we do in which your PPC doctor. Those are things I’m putting in place to really be working with, in value, traffic, you know, company. There are a few out there, but yeah, I’m working with lunio, for example, which is our partner. So those I would recommend, not necessarily, you know, but you find whoever you want to work with, but this is really important to make sure you are receiving, you know, the right information, so weak tracking and measurement and then ignoring the funnel in the process. So you know when, again as I was saying, depending on what you want to achieve, you will have different goals, and you will be optimizing your campaign differently regarding what you want to achieve. So a lot of campaign are only targeting bottom up funnel intent, but you know, and they will be missing all the other funnels. So yeah, to develop quickly about the funnel. So yeah, roughly, we would have the awareness and then, so that’s mean people are just discovering they want something. So they want to know what their options are out there into that phase, and then they would have the consideration where, okay, then they are quite definite about what they want. Now they are starting making, you know, their decision. And then it will be the conversion phase, where they are in a position to decide and buy, essentially.  Serge Nguele  19:04 So when you set your campaign, you have to, you know, be considerate of all those phases, because they are someone who is in their awareness phase, they will just be there to consider their options. They won’t be buying. And you need to factor that so that your campaign, your strategy that’s tied back to strategy that’s mean, okay, you will plan your campaign to spend a certain amount, or invest a certain amount to reach people in their awareness phase, and then another amount to bring them to consider, and another one in consideration. And when you tie that to the wall ecosystem, we said, PPC is just a fraction of you know your the world, the world marketing ecosystem. So that’s mean, okay, awareness. How are you going to you? Know, once they click and you have that information, are you following up with an email, you know, to just keep them alive and making sure when, when they are in a position to convert if they see your ad, take that decision, you know.  Serge Nguele  20:14 And then the third one, it’s generic ad copies all we’ve said so people, when they are considering they won’t be in the same, you know, set of mind, like when they are just there to discover, or when they want to buy. So you need also, you know, with your messaging, to differentiate all those phases people in the awareness you want them to to know you are there. They might even be coming, you know, online already having their assumption some, some of their preferred planned. You know, so if you come into that moment, your message should be to tell them we are here. We could be an option for you when they are there to consider your message. Need to be different and so on, when they are ready to, you know, to convert. And even there could be, you know, remarketing as well, you know, because they, if they already know about you, you won’t come again with the same message. You need to try something different. It could be, if you have a discount, or whatever, you know, could bring value. So a lot to say, Yeah, but here to to summarize, I know, yeah, I said quite a lot. But to summarize, you know, the main thing would be, really the tracking and measurement you need to track. If you don’t track your flying blind, then consider the funnel. So at which stage people are which micro moment? Are they there because they want to know? Are they there because they want to buy? Are they, you know, all those the funnel, and the third one would be having a differentiated ad copy to match all of that. Christian Klepp  21:58 Fantastic, fantastic. You did say a lot, but I think it was very important, because I what you’re, what you were explaining was you were expanding on, not just again, it’s, I think for me, it’s also beyond the PPC, because it’s understanding the buyer’s journey. First of all, who the buyers are, and what stage of the journey that you’re at. I think you mentioned at least three times, from what I from what I can remember, are they… No, no. And I think it’s important, because are they in the Discover stage where they haven’t, you know, they’re just looking around for us to see what the options are, or are they at the stage where they’re already bought in and they’re and they’re ready to buy two completely different motivations, different messaging, different copy, is required, right? And if people are using this, I would just call it like the one size fits all approach, right? That’s a recipe for failure, right?  Serge Nguele  22:52 Exactly, exactly.  Christian Klepp  22:53 Okay, fantastic. Moving on to the next question. So break it down for us here. How can you know based on everything that you’ve said, How can marketers optimize their PPC campaign. So what are the steps? What are the key components that need to be in that process to make this successful? Serge Nguele  23:11 So at this point, yeah, we’ll assume they had their strategies, right? So yeah, the first one would be, fix your tracking to make sure you are tracking the right things, and that’s been making sure your GFO (General Marketing Automation), which used to be Google Analytics, is there to or if you’re using Adobe, but GFO is the most common one, making sure your CRM (Customer Relationship Management) integration is also right. I didn’t touch on it, but offline data are also important to really get the best out of your of your optimization, because, yeah, that’s mean, you are taking information from real your real customer, your real buyer, and when you feed the system with those information, offline information, it helping you get the best out of what you are currently doing.  Serge Nguele  24:09 Then the second step would be defining success in business terms. I mentioned earlier, vanity metrics. But yes, really, what is that? What does success means to you as a business person you know not only clicks you know, so that’s mean making sure you have your return on your ad spend right, and even tied it to the profit, because their return on ad spend would not even be considering, you know, all the other aspects. So really, are you profitable or no? And once you consider all of that, it will help you properly optimize the campaign and make them work.  Serge Nguele  24:56 Then the third step would be segment your audience smartly. This is touching on what we’ve said that’s been differentiator, who are decision maker, who are influencer, who are researcher, that they won’t be having the same impact, and if we identify them properly, that will also help you allocate the budget accordingly and have more efficiency on that part. I will take an example, one of our clients. When analyzing their channels, we found that on meta, they were having the highest cost per acquisition. However, when looking at the lifetime value of those clients, those were the most relevant. So that’s mean it wasn’t a problem to allocate more budget there, because we knew that’s where they are making more money if you don’t have that you know segmentation, you might just be saying, Okay, we have a cost per acquisition, which is one of the metrics. You could say cost per acquisition is too high there, but without having the offline information about the lifetime value, you will be missing the point. You could cut out, you know, that channel where, really, you know, it’s where you are getting the most value, and then it will be the differentiation on the messaging.  Serge Nguele  24:56 So build a creative, creative and message that speaks directly to the pinpoint so. And this is, again, you know, understanding your audience, really, if you know, if you understand them, that means you will talk their language. And then the fifth one I would add, there would be test, test and test relentlessly. Again. You counting probably this is the 10th time I would say the click. Click is just the beginning. So that’s been once you have the click, what can I do from that point? You know, understanding your client, testing a few different, you know, different aspect of your messaging, on your landing pages. That how you know, really, and that’s why, coming back to where we started, yeah, a lot of advertiser, when they will be coming, they would not have the time to do all of this, because it’s a full time job, you know, to be testing different aspects, you know, for a few weeks to have to validate one hypothesis. If you are a business person, your job would not certainly be, you know, doing that, and that’s why it’s a recipe for failure. When you know business people start trying to do what is not their job. And even here, you could see, even has a marketer, there are a lot of steps, you know, to be taken. And all of us, you know, digital marketer, we are not necessarily taking those. Christian Klepp  24:56 Fantastic, fantastic. Okay, so I’ve written this down. Let me just quickly recap for the audience, yeah. So the first one you said is fix your tracking, so GFO for Google Analytics, with the CRM integration that should also be right, defining success in business terms. I think that’s an extremely important one. Like, why are we doing this right? Like, what’s the objective here? Right?  Serge Nguele  24:56 Yeah. Christian Klepp  24:56 Segmenting your audience smartly, back to what you were saying earlier. Like, at what stage are they at? Right? How many, how many different groups, especially in B2B, right? How many different groups are we targeting? Differentiation in terms of messaging. I think that’s another big miss with a lot of these campaigns, right? That the messaging is just too generic, or perhaps they’re just using whatever ChatGPT gave them. And Testing, testing, which leads me to another question, Serge, because I’m pretty sure it’s impacted your area of expertise as well. And we are in 2025, at the time of this recording. But AI, how has AI impacted PPC, and where do you see this going? Like, how can AI help or hurt? PPC. Serge Nguele  25:42 Yeah, that’s a good one, you know. And I didn’t have it this issue added. I was like, okay, Christian is, you know, just uncommon. Not asking anything about AI. I was surprised. No this. So there we go, yeah, AI is, you know, it’s a part of our lives, all of us, and now it’s starting from the beginning. So, why so? So the question I’m asking myself is, you know, why do I, why do I even need AI, you know, for because, yeah, guess what, if it’s just, you know, to be following the  trend, it will be just noise, more than anything. However, coming to PPC, AI has been in PPC for a long while, even, you know, long before ChatGPT. We have more and more, you know, smart bidding, all those AI influence, but I remember when I started PPC 16 years back, not making me look younger. But yeah, don’t worry. I’m 25. Christian Klepp  26:06 For those that are listening, you know, they’re only listening to the audio version. I mean, Serge is a young looking guy. Serge Nguele  26:06 There you go. Yeah, yeah. I would say PPC used to be manual, you know, where you could freely influence but AI now and automation are part of the question to answer in a very simple, you know, term to your question about AI, it’s, yeah, AI is there. It’s a tool like any other tools, and it’s what you do with that tool that really matters. And also it what I’m what I’m trying to avoid it, you know, being, yeah, being lazy, as you mentioned, you know, when talking about the ad copy differentiation and people just getting what they are, you know, receiving from ChatGPT, yeah, the question is, using it as a tool, which means it could be doing a lot of stuff, you know, calculation, pulling together information, all those things that are boring, you know, let’s use the word, you know, I can say otherwise. So AI would be doing that and freeing us, you know, space to be strategizing, doing all you know, the steps we mentioned, understanding our market, the competition, segmenting, differentiating, you know, our messages, putting together the strategy. Because, yeah, AI won’t be able to do that, at least not properly.  Serge Nguele  26:06 So yeah, that’s for me. You know, how, how I’m, yeah, you know, positioning, you know, ourselves with AI, but yeah, we are using it definitely, you know, to make our life easier, not the other one, not to replace us. And actually, this, this one, yeah, I was at the conference last week in Manchester, and that was, you know, the very topic, and also a personal experience. It was my birthday last week, and so when there we had Ed Sheeran, you know, the singer, you probably know, we had his impersonator, you know, who came at the event. Now, at a personal level, I’m just one of those guys who can walk past any celebrity, you know, art. So I went for my selfie, and I was pretty much convinced, you know, that it was the real one, because I went, had a chat, told him it was my birthday. Oh, so he sung me, you know, a happy birthday, which I was pleased to publish. Like, okay, I had the real Ed Sheeran, you know, singing me happy birthday. But it turned out, you know, it was a fake one. So coming back to AI, one of the I had an academic who was discussing on that topic, and he said one of the main competency we need in the future with AI would be for expert to really be expert to drive AI and, you know, tell it when it’s wrong or right. And that was a, you know, perfect example, you know, with that HR experience. Christian Klepp  26:06 Absolutely, absolutely and belated Happy Birthday, by the way. And so I did see the post, and I looked closely at the picture, and I’m like, Yeah, that’s not the real guy. Serge Nguele  26:06 You were, right? And the thing is, I didn’t have a lot of people, you know, coming to say it looks like for a lot of people, you know, I wasn’t scummed, you know, on my own. Christian Klepp  26:06 Fantastic, fantastic. Okay, so we get to the next question, which I call the soapbox question, what is the status quo in your area of expertise? So, PPC, that you passionately disagree with and why? Serge Nguele  26:06 Okay, yeah, one of those we already touched on it. For me, it’s PPC, it’s set it and forget it. And a lot of campaigns auditing just that way, so you could see people, they just, you know, created the campaign. And they are expecting the system, you know, to turn it magically, you know, positively. So, yeah, that’s, I disagree. So you know, when I mentioned that the step to go, the very last one was, you know, to test, test and test. So, yeah, this is where the real magic is happening. You know, within PPC, when we testing. So if we set and forget, we won’t be able to really see what works. And at this point, I would also, you know, blink, the diversification, you know, Google is 90% of the PPC ecosystem. That’s fine. However, it’s not the world, the entire ecosystem. And on this one, we have just the second search engine, you know, in the world, Microsoft Art, which is getting ignored, sorry. And so with that, I would just use metaphor to say, if PPC, it’s a brain, and our brain is having two hemisphere, Google will be the left one, and then Microsoft will be the, you know, the right one. And I’m seeing a lot of PPC or advertiser just running on one hemisphere. So if you have one hemisphere, you will never know, you might even be successful on Google, but it will never be complete. You know, once you have a functioning PPC brand where you have Google’s running, and then Microsoft, who is coming, and the way is working, because it’s two different search engine would be coming incrementally to what you are achieving on Google. So that’s really where, you know you have the magic of, you know, the full potential of your PPC. Christian Klepp  26:06 Absolutely, absolutely. And you know it was, it goes back to what you were saying earlier on the conversation. It’s a set it and forget it. It’s also a very dangerous mindset, and it could lead to, it could lead also to a tremendous waste of money if you don’t know what you’re doing. Serge Nguele  26:06 Yeah, exactly. Which is some time for when business owner are managing the Google ad that just, that’s just naturally happens, because, yeah, it’s not their job, you know, they are focused on, you know, running their business, doing what they are good at. So they will be like, Okay, we have some PPC running, and that just, you know, was for everyone. Christian Klepp  26:06 Absolutely, absolutely, okay. Here comes the bonus question, which I kind of like, I hinted at it already previously. But you know, the rumor, the rumor on LinkedIn, is that you’re a runner, and I’ve seen some, I’ve seen some videos of you running, and you’ve clearly, like, participated in some marathons and the like. So my question to you, Serge, is like, what is it? What is it about running that you’ve learned that you’ve applied in your professional life? Serge Nguele  26:06 Oh, yeah, that’s a profound one. Okay, so yeah? Well, I would say yeah, the rumor on LinkedIn is right, yeah, running is an important part of my life, and even exercising, it’s an important part of my life. I’m coming from a football background, and most gradually, I went into running, and past six years, I’ve been more of a runner participating to that, I participated to three marathons, so Paris, Eden trail and London this year, and most recently completed a half marathon the Royal Park one in London. So with with running, long distance running, remind me just the way life is. So life is a marathon. So it’s not a, you know, it’s not a sprint, and which is running it. You know, if, when you get that mindset, a marathon, a marathon doesn’t mean you are going the distance that’s in you, that means you need to really well, I will bring it back a bit to the PPC. So we need to strategize if you are to cover 42 kilometers while it is becoming serious. So you need to make sure you really manage, you know, time your effort, you have a proper strategy, because you can just, you know, wake up and say, Okay, I will cover 42k you will be, you know, really going into trouble. So strategizing and then planning and that will be influencing, you know, even your worth living, because, yeah, how you rest, how you recover, how you eat, and so, yeah.  Serge Nguele  39:59 And then it’s also pushing you to the limit. That’s mean your mindset, which is actually the most important you know when doing this, because to run a marathon, it will be, yeah, a bit about you need to turn that for sure, but it will be about going beyond the physical battle, and at that point it will be more what you have in your mindset. Or no, do you believe you can do it? Or no, you know, are you fighting to keep on going when your body is saying, Okay, I can’t take it anymore. So and all of those things, when you bring them back to to normal life is just, you know, on a daily basis, your business person, you know, we have up and down. You will have no client, you know, sometime. So how are you behaving? You know, with when all those things are happening. And in between the running, I also developed my proper tools, one of them being what I call my three nose philosophies, which I’m happy to share with our listeners here, could be helping. It’s working for me. And yeah, I’m sure if you guys are testing it, it will be working. So the first, no, it’s no excuses. That’s been whatever you set yourself to do. You just go for it. You don’t find excuses. So it’s a respect you give to yourself. The second, no, it’s no complaint. Life is, you know, life is throwing us a lot of stuff. Not only is, you know, chocolate, if I can say but yeah, you have to face it. When is there? If you complain, it won’t change anything. So that’s mean not complaining set you to finding the solution. And the third one is no self pity. You can still say, Okay, I was born in wherever it is, this or that, that won’t change anything. The question it’s, are you willing to consider that however, whatever your condition is not what defines you, it’s what you do you know next that will be the important step. So yeah, my train of philosophy, Sophie would be the bonus for our listener, Christian Klepp  42:31 No excuses, no complaints and no self pity. So not only is sales a PPC expert, but he’s also a philosopher, no, but it’s awesome. Awesome. I love it. But, Serge, this has been such a great conversation. Thank you so much for coming on and for sharing your expertise and your experience and your running advice with the listeners, and quick introduction to yourself and how people out there can get in touch with you. And I did notice, you know, there were a couple of hints in the conversation. There were a lot of, like, medical terms floating around. What’s the story there? Serge Nguele  43:06 The story so, yeah. Quick Intro about me, yeah, I’m search your PPC doctor. I’m called the PPC doctor in the industry, I do quite a lot of public speaking in the digital marketing space. I’m George award at the search award in the UK, globally and at international level. I have 16 years experience in PPC, and I run my agency called your PPC doctor, if people want to be in touch with me, they can type my name online. I’m quite active on LinkedIn, so Serge Nguele, you will find me, yeah, wearing, you know, something with this PPC doctor. This is the branding. And to your question, why your PPC doctor? So there is a real story there. I’m a former Med student. So I studied medicine to become a proper doctor, but for some reason, I will spell spare the details. I pivoted into marketing and specialize into digital and PPC. So when I was creating my agency, the name was natural, your PPC doctor, which is also a real way of doing stuff. I don’t call the client. I still call, you know, my patients, and I’m having the doctor mindset within your PPC, where we really listen and then we listen, then we diagnose, prescribe, and from the prescription, we follow up with care. So yeah, that’s the doctor mindset at your PPC Doctor. Serge Nguele  43:52 Fantastic, fantastic. The only thing you don’t do is tell people to breathe in, breathe out and cough for me, please. Serge Nguele  43:58 Not yet.  Christian Klepp  43:58 Not yet, fantastic, fantastic. So once again, thank you so much for your time. Take care, stay safe and talk to you soon.  Serge Nguele  45:09 Okay, yes. Thanks Christian, thanks for having me.  Christian Klepp  45:12 Thanks. Okay. Bye, for now.  Serge Nguele  45:13 Yeah. Bye.

How a Growth Mindset Drives B2B Marketing Success  In an increasingly competitive business environment inundated with digital noise, relying on “play it safe” tactics will only result in your brand drowning in a sea of sameness. The path to true differentiation, innovation, and standing out is not an easy one as it requires a significant mindset shift. For B2B marketing initiatives to succeed, you must create room for experimentation and data-driven discovery. How can B2B marketers approach this effectively and secure internal buy-in for it? That's why we're talking toVincent Weberink (Founder, Pzaz.io),who shares expert insights and proven strategies on how a growth mindset drives B2B marketing success. In this episode, Vincent talked about why design experiments are crucial in B2B marketing and highlighted the need for structured, data-driven growth experimentation. He shared his proven methodology consisting of ideation, ranking, and rapid prototyping designed to quickly and effectively validate concepts. Vincent also shared some common B2B marketing pitfalls that teams should avoid and emphasized the value of iterative testing and learning. He broke down how teams can build an entrepreneurial mindset and get internal buy-in for experimentation-driven B2B marketing. https://youtu.be/SlQa58iKf3k Topics discussed in episode: [2:09] The importance of running structured experiments in B2B marketing [5:21] Common challenges marketing teams face when designing and executing experiments [13:53] Key pitfalls marketing teams should avoid and some practical solutions [20:36] How to align internal teams and consistently generate strong experimental ideas [31:31] Actionable steps B2B marketers can take to run effective experiments: Understand and acknowledge that what you know is probably wrong Use ideation and designing experiments Trust your team Be creative in applying growth hacks Get external help if stuck Companies and links mentioned: Vincent Weberink on LinkedIn Pzaz.io Cisco Airbnb ChatGPT 13 Failures Later What The Hack?! Transcript Christian Klepp  00:00 In a B2B landscape that has become increasingly competitive and inundated with digital noise, using play it safe tactics will result in your brand drowning in a sea of sameness. That said, the path to differentiation, innovation and standing out is not an easy one, as it requires a change in mindset. You need to have room for experiments to truly create something that is relevant to customers. So how can B2B marketers do this, and how can they get internal buy in for it? Welcome to this episode of the B2B Marketers in a Mission podcast, and I’m your host, Christian Klepp. Today, I’ll be talking to Vincent Weberink, who will be answering this question. He’s the founder of pzaz.io who specializes in developing business growth through creative, structured data driven growth experimentation. Tune in to find out more about what this B2B marketers mission is. Christian Klepp  00:51 Vincent Weberink, welcome to the show.  Vincent Weberink  00:54 Hello Christian. Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here.  Christian Klepp  00:59 Absolutely I’ve been really looking forward to this conversation. I think we’re going to have a great time. We’re going to have a great discussion also about topics, and a main topic in particular that I think is going to be so relevant to B2B marketers and their teams in general. So you know, without further ado, let’s not keep the audience in suspense for too long. Let’s just jump straight into it. All right. So Vincent, you’re on a mission to drive business growth through creative, structured and data driven growth experimentation. So for this conversation, let’s focus on the following topic, which is how B2B marketers can create a mindset and design experiments to understand what customers want. That kind of sounds like it’s very, I’m going to say pedestrian, but it’s incredible, and I’m sure you’ll have plenty of case studies to show that there’s a lot of people out there that don’t follow this process, and then they get into trouble. So I’m going to kick off this conversation with two questions, and I’m happy to repeat them all right? So the first question is, why do you think that design experiments are important for marketing teams? And based on that, where do you see a lot of marketing teams struggle? Vincent Weberink  02:09 I think they’re very important because as human beings, we’re emotional when we make decisions. Problems is that, therefore when we try to drive growth. We have this idea about something, and then we tend to completely jump into it, build everything. Spend a lot of time and money and resources on building that thing that we believe is going to be very, very successful, and that takes a lot of time. And the reality is that most of the time you’re actually wrong, even though you think that you know your customer, even though you think that you know this is the best trick or marketing tactic that you’re developing. And what this experimentation model does, it sort of forces you to go through a very structured, almost scientific process, because there are some steps in there that help you to remove that emotion from your decision making.  Vincent Weberink  03:12 And an example of how decision making often is influenced is when you’re in a small team or a large team, you’re sitting around the table and you’re trying to brainstorm, say, oh, you know, we have this, this challenge. We’re launching a new product, or we’re changing something, and we need to communicate it, driving sales up. And then the people who are best sort of equipped with sales capabilities are the ones that you know will dominate the conversation, and what we tend to do is then listen to them, whereas there are other people around the table that you know, they might be more introverted, might say less, that also have really, really great ideas. So what happens is that you collect all these thoughts and ideas, and then the person that’s very good at selling is selling their idea to you, and you end up taking that one. But it has nothing to do with reality, whereas in the methodology that I’m sort of promoting, what you actually do is you try to capture as many ideas as possible, as quickly as possible, and then, in almost a democracy, you rank and rate them according to several criteria, and that will help you to make some of those ideas float. And the ones that pop up are the ones you should actually focus on, because now, within that democratic decision making process, you’ve tried to optimize the chances that one of those ideas will actually lead to much quicker success than any of the others. And you can also use it in the reverse, the ideas that completely sink because no one voted for them, maybe only just the person that was selling. You know that they go away. You just throw them away and forget. About them, because clearly they didn’t get enough support. And the other question you were asking, sorry focused on the first question.  Christian Klepp  05:08 No problem, absolutely, absolutely no. Well, that was a great way to, like, set up the conversation. And I guess it segues to the question, where do you see, based on what you said, where do you see a lot of marketing teams struggling? Vincent Weberink  05:21 Well, I see them often struggling is that they tend to spend money and time on just the ordinary things that everyone sort of accustomed to, because depending on the type of company you work in, that’s the safe choice, and that ultimately doesn’t really help you grow. It’s typically the stuff that you would never expect to work. And I’ll give you a great example of this in a moment that might give you this amazing growth overnight or amazing success. It doesn’t necessarily have to be growth. It can be specific campaign where you just need people to sign up, because you’re trying to obtain information from them and to get those people to sign up. It could be a problem. You’re designing your funnel, and then something isn’t really working.  Vincent Weberink  06:15 So in my experience, what happens is that people will say, Okay, let’s build a landing page. Let’s build a website, and let’s make it beautiful. Let’s make it perfect. But while you’re in this early stage, you have no clue if it’s going to work or not. You’re now wasting all of those resources where it’s so much better to very, very quickly, design experiments, run them as quickly as possible, see where something is happening, and then sort of iterate upon that specific experiment that you were running. And then slowly, over time, you get to a point where that experiment can be fleshed out, can be refined. You might do some A/B testing, and especially in the world we’re moving into with the rise of AI speed is everything past early days of when I was starting to do, you know, growth marketing or growth hacking, depending on what you like to call it. Let’s say 15 years ago, you could simply run an experiment, and that experiment could would last for certain periods of time. You could get away with some of the experiments, even running them for months. But with the rise of AI, what we’re seeing is that experiments only work for very, very short periods of time. And what I see with a lot of the marketing teams is that, you know, they’re not accustomed to driving fast and quickly running and failing fast, so that you can very quickly learn to see what ultimately what ultimately works.  Vincent Weberink  07:55 So a great example of something that I experienced it when I was running one of my startups, which was a streaming service, and I believed I got everything right. I was just convinced that there was nothing wrong with the product, but I wasn’t getting any traction, nothing, literally, no one was signing up, and I just couldn’t understand. So what I started to do is just run one experiment after another. First obviously, I went out and spoke to people, because that’s the first thing you should do most of the time, especially when you’re in startup mode, either a startup or you work for corporate, maybe running a division or launching a new product, you have no data. But if you read all of the books out there, they all tell you, Oh, let’s look at the data. Well, guess what? You don’t have any data. So what you need to do is you need to go and speak to people and find the soft data to really understand, you know, what’s going on. How do I create a product that people will be willing to buy, and I did that, and then it sort of confirmed that there was nothing wrong with the product. And then months into that process, I still wasn’t getting any traction, and the startup was sort of moving to a point where it started to fail, because, you know, you’re running out of money, you’re running out of time. So I kept running experiments, believing that the methodology that I use simply works. You just need to keep running, running, running. And then one day, I essentially was close to giving up, and I decided to take on another project because I had run out of money. But on the side, I kept running experiments, and what I did is I put a play button on the homepage, allowing people to watch television for five minutes without signing up. And that simple trick got me 11,000 euros overnight. It took me 11 months. To uncover that, I had now proven that indeed, the product wasn’t wrong. The product was always right, but the way we were marketing was wrong, and it is always one of the two. It’s either there’s no product market fit or you’re selling it in the wrong way. Your marketing is wrong. And in a way that was very frustrating, because this very simple thing, almost as simple as a paperclip now gave me all the growth in one way. It was too late for me, because I had to go into that other project. The revenue wasn’t enough to sustain the business, but it did allow me to sort of keep the business afloat. And I was working this other project, and then I returned, after like a half a year or so, back full time onto the startup once I was generating enough recurring, recurring revenue there, and yeah, that’s sort of, you know, what I strongly believe in. You just need to keep running those experiments.  Vincent Weberink  10:53 Of course. The third option is that your timing is completely off, which is another thing that I’ve experienced several times. I’ve run many startups, most of them failed over time. I’m proud to say that I never had to raise money for any of those startups. I was sort of in the last 30 years of my career. Thank you. I always managed to, you know, make enough money to sort of sustain, but many of them never became the big winner. They were just doing enough, and then at some point, there was an end of life, because either the market was fooled or or just turned out that there was no point in continuing to run that company. An example is VPN product that I did in 2003 that’s when the first idea started. VPN was a business to business product, and we decided to consumerize VPN because our only competitor at the time was called hide my ass, and the technology was very, very complicated. And after sort of what happens after 911 where a lot of governments started to invade everyone’s privacy, we decided that, you know, it is also important for individuals to retain a level of privacy, you know, within the boundaries of the law, obviously. So we spent a lot of time in developing that technology, creating a product that was very, very easy to use and that was secure and safe. And we were very, very successful in the first year and a half. We even managed to get in Google on the second place, right after Cisco, which is the inventor of VPN, but by the time we had about 40,000 customers, that was it. That was just, we just couldn’t grow anymore. And I then decided to abandon that project. Over time, someone else continued it for several more years, and of course, now VPN mass market product, but over 20 years later, and it’s the most common product out there, and we were just too early. So even though it was an exciting, exciting adventure, it made us money. It was a profitable business. Ultimately, at the time, there was no point in sort of continuing, trying to sort of push it, push it further. Christian Klepp  13:18 Yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely great points. And you know, thank you for sharing those, those experiences and the you know, those past successes and challenges, failures and so forth. I think it’s, I think it’s an important part of the overall process, right? I’m going to move us on. And you’ve mentioned some of these already, but like, what are some of these on the topic of design experimentation and growth growth marketing. What are some of these key pitfalls that marketing teams need to avoid, and what should they be doing instead? Vincent Weberink  13:53 The key pitfalls they need to avoid is to believe that they’re always right. I mean, that is the first thing is, in essence, that you should learn that most of the time you will be wrong, and that success lies in the ability to admit that and to move forward very, very quickly by running a lot of those experiments, and by designing those experiments very quickly and having the ability to turn them into minimum viable products. And the pitfalls that most people fall into is that they think you’ll just read a book, and then you can just do it. It’s simple, right? Oh, it’s just like marketing. It’s the same way how I learn how to do advertising, I can simply learn how to do, you know, growth marketing. But the reality is, it’s then it is a thing or a trick so that understanding and the realization that you just need to start thinking differently, start thinking out of the box, be creative, because a lot of those hacks come from places that you simply will not expect.  Vincent Weberink  15:15 I guess Airbnb is a typical example. You know, as far as I remember the story correctly. Two guys set up Airbnb. It was literally an air bed in someone’s house. They were running the business. They had about 10,000 you know, customers, and they could have said, Oh, you know, we’re doing great. Our marketing is doing well. We’re making money. But ultimately, they were not satisfied, so they decided to continue, and then what happens is, this is before the big thing that most people have heard of, which is correct, Greg’s list. That’s when they really exploded. But before that, something else happened, and that was when one of the founders said, Well, how do we expand our capacity, and how do we get more people interested in our products? And it was around the organization of trade shows when there was always a shortage of capacity in hotels, and they decided to try that out. And if I remember correctly, they grew sort of from 10,000 people to 200,000 people in just a couple of months. And that was actually their real growth hack, the real spurt, whereas reckless took them to millions. And that’s the thing that everyone knows. But it was that mindset, that understanding of not being satisfied with what you’re doing, and the ability to pivot, because it was a complete pivot. It was no longer just an air bet. Now you were renting out a bed in someone’s house, and that was sort of the foundation what then became Airbnb. And I think most marketing teams have never been exposed to that way of thinking. You know, they’ve been taught the simple stuff on, how do you do advertising, how do you look at data, you know, how do I build a website? How do I organize a trade show, etc. But it’s these things where you take an idea, where you’re almost stepping into the entrepreneur’s shoes by looking at, how can I make the business grow through extraordinary ways of marketing? Christian Klepp  17:30 Absolutely, absolutely. You know what? That’s a phrase that I also heard at a business meeting on Friday where I was talking to the branch manager of a bank. And one of the things that she said, why, how she helped the branch to grow, is because she came out of a business. She was a family business, and she was running her own business, so she came with an entrepreneur’s mindset. And I do think that there is that is really, like, significant, especially if you’re talking about and I don’t want to, like, use these, like, overused buzzwords, let’s say, but like, you know, if you’re entering this world of, like, the scrappy entrepreneurs or even the scrappy marketing teams, right, you can’t necessarily go in there with the corporate mindset. No offense to anybody that’s in corporate but if you’re stretched for, as you can rightfully attest to Vincent, if you’re stretched for time, bandwidth, resources and budget, you’ve got to, you’ve got to think more like a guerrilla fighter versus a conventional army, right? Vincent Weberink  18:38 You need to test as early as possible whether or not the ideas or your hypothesis, hypothesis that you have are actually true, and especially when you’re an entrepreneur or in a product team. And I have an example for there was a famous UK bank that had an idea where they wanted to test if friends and family would be willing to become guarantors for young people that would want to buy a house in London. And you know, banks are very, very big, slow organizations, and typically, if not alone, figuring out how this legally works will cost them millions right to develop the whole full product. So how do you do something? How do you create this experiment where you can prove whether or not there’s any viability in even thinking of offering such a product? And what they came up with is essentially to build a landing page where they would simply ask people to sign up for the service. They ran a 500 pound budget against it, so the total cost of the whole experiment was maybe 1500 pounds, and now they’ve managed to validate it, which saved them literally hundreds of 1000s of pounds and the risk that that product might have failed. And I think that is exactly the entrepreneurial mindset that a market. Marketer needs to develop and understand, Okay, I’m not just responsible for selling this product, but I’m also responsible for understanding, you know, who do I sell it to? How do I sell it? What should the product look like? How can the product evolve so that there’s a good product market fit? Christian Klepp  20:17 Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. You brought some of these up already, but let’s dig into it deeper and unpack it. I should say, like, so based on your experience, like, how do you how can B2B marketers get traction as early as possible? So how can they build experiments? What are those key steps that they need to take? Vincent Weberink  20:36 The first thing this is, so I sort of use a methodology and which is very, very structured. And I use that because if I don’t, I get lost in ideas. Because it is very easy to come up with 100 ideas. A lot of people you know, can do that. So what we do is I sit down, either with a team, or I might take a certain periods of time, where all I do is just collect as possible. Then for every idea, I write down, what is the idea? What do I believe this idea will give me? So what is the outcome? How do I prove, potentially, as a hypothesis, that what I believe is true? And then I sort of make those notes, then I store them in cards. And you can do that in any kind of project management tool, whether it’s notion or cell or bunch. Just create those cards.  Vincent Weberink  21:31 Then what I do is I rank and rank them so, and I ask the team to do that, or the people I work with, for example, if I was doing consultancy for clients, we would have a specific, specific group of the clients do doing the same thing, and then all we would do is see, Okay, which of those ideas are floating. And we would take the top 10, again, it was very easy to then generate, like, 100 different ideas, and you take the top 10, and then for each of those, you’re now going to discuss them and essentially say, Okay, if I need to turn this idea into minimal but viable products, allowing me to prove that I am right or wrong, what is the least amount of work you can then do? And you know, so in my book, I publish a whole list of MVPs (Minimum Viable Product), but actually, with ChatGPT, you could probably just type, give me a list of all the different type of MVPs and explain how they work. So for example, you have a Wizard of Oz. A Wizard of Oz is, is an MVP, where everything happens behind the scene. The product really doesn’t exist, but the customer thinks it exists. And you do everything manually. That’s just an example.  Vincent Weberink  22:51 So what you then do is you then going to think about, okay, who needs to do what? And then you run a short sprint. You design the sprint. Say, Okay, next Monday, with the three of us, we’re just going to spend one day on building that thing. And I, most of the time use distribution hacking, or in other words, advertising, to drive some traffic to whatever that experiment is to then prove of my whether or not my hypothesis is correct. And from there onwards, you then, of course, have some analytic tool, or, depending on how you how, you then prove it, and then you start to iterate and but I promise you, most of those experiments will fail, which is great, but if you run 10 very quickly, maybe in the course of two weeks, if you have two or three where you see the needle moving a little bit, now you have something to take the next step. And a classical mistake that I’ve seen is that people always tend to make it too complicated. So what they do is, rather than designing an experiment that gets you one answer, they try to get as many answers as possible. And that doesn’t work, because you know, if you have any exposure to data, if you have multiple data points, then it’s now up to your interpretation, and then you’re selling it to yourself, because you want the hypothesis to be true. So it’s very difficult to then again, step back and say, Ah, you know, can I really be honest with myself? So test one thing at a time. Once you’ve proven that one of those things work, you just design the next one and the next one and next one, and then within this very short periods of time, you’ll get to a point where, where it starts to work or fail. You could prove that the product simply is not viable. Which, which I’ve had many times, and then even pivoted afterwards, given up on many products, because simply, even though I believed, you know, was going to be amazing, yeah, it turns out to be wrong. So, yeah. Christian Klepp  25:00 Absolutely, absolutely. Like, it’s really a fine, a fine balance between speed, but also like, like, the quick experimentation, as you say, and you know, as you were, as you were discussing your process, it actually just made me think of another question, which I’m sure you faced countless times, and you brought it up in the beginning too. How do you get this internal alignment? You talked about, like a team getting together in the room, and I’ve been in one of those teams right, where there were a couple, like, we used to call them the stars of the show, because, you know, when they get up on stage, they want the spotlight to be only on them. Forget about what everybody else says. My idea, my baby is the most beautiful baby in the world. And how dare you insult my baby, right?  Vincent Weberink  25:48 Exactly.  Christian Klepp  25:49 But, but the reality, as you rightfully pointed out, which I’ve also seen firsthand, the reality, is that the one that shouts the loudest doesn’t necessarily have the best idea, right? It’s sometimes these people. It’s sometimes these people that don’t say anything, that don’t contribute to the conversation, they actually have the solution that perhaps the market is looking for. But unfortunately, their voice is drowned out by these so called, I’m just gonna call them the Divas in the room, right? So back to the question, how do you get that alignment? How do you get those ideas out of everybody in a way that it’s not just fair, but it’s also like more, more in line with what the market is looking for. Let’s put it that way. Vincent Weberink  26:43 The people around the table that typically don’t speak up, you know, some of them are the deep thinkers. They really think about something, and they have really great ideas, but they’ll then struggle to properly defend their idea and to explain it, whereas the other person on the table, who’s good at selling themselves, you know might they’ll do everything to defend their idea, and therefore they will attack the other ideas. And what you sort of see is by implementing this rank and rate model by definition, you’re externalizing the decision making, so you’re agreeing with everyone on the around the table, that everyone writes down their idea on the paper, on a piece of paper, and you define what that structure should then look like, which means is no one has to defend it. They just write it on paper. You then gather those pieces of paper and you add them to the tool. Then you ask everyone to rank and raise which, by the way, could be done anonymous, which I’ve done many times. And that way you just look at the one that floats, and you just, if the team look, we don’t know who’s right, we can’t afford for this venture to fail, and therefore, we’re just going to focus on the ideas that have the greatest potential of propensity. And that’s how I do it, and it’s always worked well for me. There’s, of course, when I would introduce this to new startup teams, very often it’s the entrepreneur that is the biggest problem. You know that they’re the hardest to convince, because they typically have the strongest opinion of all.  Christian Klepp  28:34 So you’re talking about the founder, right? The founder Vincent Weberink  28:36 Yeah. About the founder? Yes, yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, because they look, you know, there might be a great marketer or great salesperson who have very strong ideas, and they might, you know, accept inputs, but it’s typically the founder that will then say, yeah, now if you know, it’s my money, so I’m going to just do it my way, and it’s wrong, because you’re now letting your emotion again, getting In the way. And this example that I gave you with the play button that was sort of happened while I was in the process of creating that methodology that I use, which is sort of based on me having read 1000 books where I really struggled that most of the books, even though they’re written for startups, if you really dive into it, they’re actually more for startup teams and corporates, very often, the way they’re described, that you just can’t apply them to normal startups, because normal startups work differently. And what I then did is I sort of took all of the models in there, and then figured out, what if you combine them, crunch them, and then create this methodology. And I was doing that for myself, because I really struggled, having done so many startups, and then I found, okay, so now I have this methodology. I just kept doing it. Kept. Believing that ultimately, it would work with the idea that sometimes you know on this path and that other people need to help you to sort of step out of your comfort zone and sometimes think from the left, from the other side, because your growth might come from a different direction, and which could even be true within your customer persona. You think you have the persona, right. But while you’re digging and running the experiments, it might be the persona next door which is the true, real customer, and you just need to uncover that by believing in that methodology. So… Christian Klepp  30:40 Absolutely, absolutely. You know, we did one of those exercises in Q2 with a client that had was very convinced of their ICP (Ideal Customer Profile). And then we went through this exercise where we did, um, we did a diagnosis on the ICP to determine, like, is this the right is this actually the right ICP you should be going after, right? So I’m 100% with you on that one. Okay, my friend, we come to the point where we’re talking about actionable tips, and it’s really just a recap of all the great recommendations you’ve given us already. So just imagine that there’s a SaaS (Software as a Service) marketing team out there, or somebody in B2B marketing that’s listening to this conversation. They’re like, wow, that’s exactly what I’m going through right now. So what are the maybe three to five things you would say they can take action on, like right now? Vincent Weberink  31:31 First of all, understanding you know, coming to the realization that whatever you know is probably wrong. Which is, which is the hardest thing to do. The second thing is you should really start working by using ideation and designing experiments, create MVPs fail as fast as you can, because that’s the way you learn as quickly as you can. And I sort of describe that in my book that I just launched, because it, you know, yes and into the same problem. Also, you know, trust your team. Trust that other people have great ideas as well. And very often, the great ideas come from the people that otherwise wouldn’t, wouldn’t say anything and be as creative as possible. Try to prime yourself by just, you know, search online, what are great growth, growth hacks or other marketing tips and tricks, and then try to figure out, how can I apply those? How can I use those as potential experiments? Because that way you can just simply move forward. But you know, if you’re stuck, get external help, because they’re like people like yourself, you know, who can really help to sort of leapfrog this, because otherwise, you’re just stuck and trying to learn, and while you’re running out of money, you have no time. Most starters will last for six months, and then they’ve run out of money, prove that you’re right before you build anything. And that is really, I think, the most important. And so the last tip I want to give, don’t just start building any product, because you will fail. It’s not for nothing that 95% of startups fails within within the first couple of years. It’s because, you know, you believe that people will flock and will love whatever you’re building. But the reality is just very, very different, and it might be the smallest thing that you get wrong, but you know that’s enough to fail, so… Christian Klepp  33:46 Prove that you’re right before you build anything. I mean, if there’s anything that the audience should be taking away from this conversation, I think it’s that sentence, right? Absolutely, that’s fantastic. Thanks again for sharing those tips, and I hope the audience is taking as many notes as I am during our conversation. Okay, two more questions before I let you go, Vincent, so here comes the bonus question. So you’re, this is the understatement of the year, but you’re a bit of a nomad, right? Like you’re originally from the Netherlands, you’ve lived in Greece, and now you’ve relocated, I think the last time we spoke, you were in Florence, and now you’ve moved somewhere else in northern Italy, right? So how has this lifestyle impacted you, personally and professionally? I mean, it’s clearly changed your view of the world, I’m sure. Vincent Weberink  34:39 Yes, so somehow I felt I was always stuck in the Netherlands as an entrepreneur. Because especially in the past, there is this thing, and I like to joke about it, where the Americans have the not invented syndrome, not invented here syndrome, the Dutch people have the invented hair syndrome, which means it’s all your Dutch. So therefore it can’t be good. And I felt I was very often, sort of, you know, locked up. And at the same time, the world is getting smaller and smaller every day. And I was lucky, being in technology, that we were able to then start moving abroad. And in all fairness, some of the moves we’ve done were actually caused because of the failures we’ve had, not that we run away or anything, but it was sort of, I was trying to do something locally. It didn’t really work. And then it was time for new challenges. And I found, always have found a lot of energy being able to now live in a completely different country, with a different language, with a different culture, and that really enriched my life. I started to look at things very, very differently, especially learning that everyone has a different view, whereas as a young person, I always had a very strong opinion, and the world had to be the way I saw it. But nothing is further from culture plays an incredibly important role on how people perceive things, how to behave, what kind of products they buy, how you should sell. Language plays an incredible, incredibly important role. So, yeah, I guess I was, I can’t say I was lucky because I created my own luck. I created my own decisions. I was lucky that my lovely wife and son have always supported me and that we’ve been on this journey through seven countries in the last 20 years. Yeah, and we’re in Italy at the moment. Indeed. Christian Klepp  36:35 Wow. Seven countries. Yeah, yeah. Amazing. Amazing. Yeah. That’s about the same number as in terms of my own experience. Like, I live in Canada now, and that’s country number seven. So there’s more, there’s more of us out there than you think, right? Like, exactly. So it’s very similar to my story. But, like, how’s your Italian? By the way. Vincent Weberink  36:57 It’s getting there. I’m studying hard at the moment, and, yeah, we sort of arrived here in January. Officially, my son is studying at university, and he’s finishing. But I guess, you know, I speak some Spanish, so Italian is slightly easier. Yeah. Christian Klepp  37:16 It’s, yeah, it is helpful. I realized, like, I also speak a certain level of Spanish, and that helped me get by even in a country like Portugal, where, Let’s appreciate it’s a complete it’s a different language, but there are some similarities. So they can understand what I’m saying, they’ll just answer in Portuguese, as long as you also understand what they’re saying, more or less. Yeah, I mean, I try to figure it out, and then they, they’ll, they’ll speak slowly, and I’m like, okay, okay, I got it. Obrigado, all right. Like, fantastic, fantastic. Vincent. Thank you so much for coming on the show and for sharing your experience and your expertise with the listeners. So please, a quick introduction to yourself and how people out there can get in touch with you. And by the way, I really love that we’re color coordinated. And for those that are listening to the audio version of this, we’re both wearing, like denim colored outfits. Vincent Weberink  38:11 Well, thank you Christian. Thank you very much for having me. It was a real pleasure. Yeah, of course. You know. My name is Vincent Weberink. My email is vincent@webberink.com and if anyone has any questions or potentially is interested in the book that I’ve just released, which is condensing 1000 books and failures and success, then of course, please, please get in touch with me. Thank you again. Christian Klepp  38:42 Fantastic, fantastic, and we’ll be sure to include a link to your book in the show notes. So once again, Vincent, thank you so much for your time. Take care. Stay safe and talk to you soon. Vincent Weberink  38:53 Looking forward, Christian, thank you very much. Take care.  Christian Klepp  38:56 Thank you. Bye for now. 

Matthew Pollard (Founder, Rapid Growth®), who shares expert insights and proven strategies on how to leverage storytelling for B2B marketing success. Matthew discussed the significance of storytelling and specialization in B2B marketing. He also emphasized the need for differentiation in B2B companies by focusing on a specific niche rather than targeting everyone.

Michael Liebowitz (Founder, Magnetic Mind Studio), who shares proven strategies and expert insights on how to create a B2B message that can't be ignored. Michael emphasized the need to align messaging with the “critter brain,” which places value on emotions and survival. He explained why B2B marketers must communicate the main outcome delivered by their service and the core beliefs of their business.

Adrian Dahlin (Founder & CEO, Searchtosale.io), who shares proven strategies and expert insights on how your B2B content can be found by AI search. Adrian discussed the evolving SEO landscape in the age of AI and highlighted the switch from traditional channel strategies to an authority strategy that builds trust and brand recognition.

Hyein Yoon (Founder, HY Marketing), who shares proven marketing strategies and expert insights on how to build a successful content strategy for the Korean market. Hyein highlighted some of the key differences between Western and Korean B2B marketing approaches. She discussed the importance of understanding the hierarchical systems, the relationship-driven nature of conducting business, and how these influence decision-making in Korea.

Nicholle Stacey (Chief Marketing Officer, Altitude B2B), who shares proven marketing strategies and expert insights on how successful B2B companies are increasing their web traffic. Nicholle highlighted the importance of conducting a comprehensive website audit to identify technical SEO issues and improve domain health.

Sam Dunning (Founder, Breaking B2B), who shares proven B2B marketing strategies and expert insights on how marketing teams can drive pipeline growth in 90 days. Sam discussed the importance and challenges of SEO for B2B companies, and emphasized that SEO is crucial for mature markets with active demand. He talked about common pitfalls to avoid, such as the “traffic trap,” low-intent keywords, and focusing too much on high traffic.

Braedi DeLong (COO, The Sales Collective), on how understanding your B2B buyers can drive predictable growth. Braedi explained why the outdated “spray and pray” approach is no longer effective, and emphasized the need for targeted, intentional marketing. She expanded on the importance of clearly defining a realistic Ideal Customer Profile (ICP) and understanding stakeholder dynamics.

Doug Abbott (CEO, Contrasted Marketing), who shares proven strategies on how to create powerful B2B messaging that converts.Doug discussed the importance of B2B marketers tailoring messaging to address the specific concerns, needs, and priorities of the different buying committee members.

David J. Ebner (Founder, Content Workshop), who shares insights and expert strategies on how to make your B2B marketing stand out.David emphasized the need to create unique, insightful, and customer-centric content that doesn't disrupt the audience's flow. He also discussed the importance of giving away actionable advice to demonstrate true expertise and build trust.

Ronan McDonnell (Managing Director, CMO Mojo), who shares proven strategies on how to go from outbound to a 95% inbound marketing approach. Ronan explained how B2B companies can best leverage inbound strategies for reducing headcount in sales, improve the quality of leads, and attract potential investors.

Layton Cox (Senior Director of Competitive Intelligence & Strategy Consulting, Sedulo Group), who shared his experience and provided valuable insights on how to strengthen your B2B differentiation with competitive intelligence. Layton emphasized the importance of primary research over the reliance on secondary data, and elaborated on the value of internal data and direct competitor insights.

Maggie Carey (CEO, Master It Media LLC), who shared proven strategies on how B2B businesses leverage social media for exponential growth. Maggie explained why a human-centric approach focusing on addressing client pain points and storytelling is crucial. She also elaborated on the winning Three C's Framework: consistency, clarity, and capacity.

Michael Clark (Chief Marketing Officer, Infrascale), who shared proven strategies on how marketing teams can drive growth with fewer resources. Michael highlighted the importance of marketing agility, leveraging real-time data, and integrating customer feedback into marketing decisions. He also stressed why aligning marketing teams with sales and other internal stakeholders using metrics like pipeline and revenue is critical to success.

Jason Kramer (Founder & CEO, Cultivize), who shared his experience and expertise on how to transform B2B marketing into a profit center. Jason highlighted the importance of linking marketing initiatives to sales results and collecting vital data such as referral sources. He also elaborated on how to use CRM platforms to track leads and stressed the need for stronger marketing and sales alignment.

Kenny Ridgell (Founder, Ridge Media LLC) shared tried and tested strategies on how to leverage actionable metrics to drive predictable growth. Kenny emphasized the importance of understanding a company's sales cycle, prioritizing high-impact metrics, and simplifying data analysis. He also elaborated on how integrating CRM systems can improve marketing attribution and enable full-funnel visibility.

Jeff Hoffman (Founder & Chief Revenue Officer, Jeff Hoffman, CRO), who shared best practices and strategies on how to gear teams up for phenomenal business success. Jeff highlighted the disconnect that arises when marketing teams hand off unqualified leads to sales. He also emphasized the need for creating a collaborative sales and marketing framework, including sales involvement in lead generation and developing marketing strategies.

Tye DeGrange (CEO, Round Barn Labs), who shared tried and tested strategies on how B2B marketers can build trust for better results. Tye emphasized the importance of partnering with trusted industry voices such as influencers and affiliates to help build trust, demonstrate expertise, and drive measurable results. He also elaborated on how technology, social media, content authenticity, and customer persona alignment impact trust-building initiatives.

Chris Silvestri (Founder & Conversion Copywriter, Conversion Alchemy), who shared some proven strategies on how B2B SaaS marketers can achieve strong message-market fit.Chris explained why effective conversion copywriting is more than just clever words - it's about capturing insights from customer research, team alignment, and understanding buyer psychology.

Raja Walia (CEO & Founder, GNW Consulting) who shared some proven strategies on how to optimize your martech implementation for marketing success. Raja emphasized the importance of aligning technology with business goals to set your team up for long-term success. He also shared some common pitfalls that teams should avoid and stressed the need for proper planning, accountability, and enablement.

Brynna DeSantiago (Head of Marketing, Encapture) on how to leverage events to drive B2B marketing success. Brynna discussed the importance of personalized outreach, common event marketing mistakes to avoid, and how smaller, more targeted events can deliver greater impact. She also highlighted the critical role of sales and marketing alignment and to conduct effective post-event follow-ups.

Andreas Voniatis (Founder, Artios.io), who shared proven strategies on how to future-proof your B2B content marketing strategy for AI search engines. Andreas emphasized the need for high-quality, insight-rich content that adds unique value to target audiences. He also highlighted the key differences between traditional SEO and SEO needed for AI search engines, and talked about common pitfalls to avoid.

Skip Wilson (CEO, Draft Media Partners) on how to turn around an underperforming marketing campaign. Skip highlighted the importance of recognizing that every campaign has room for improvement. He discussed why a systematic approach is important and why the need for clear audience targeting and effective messaging is paramount.

Brook Shepard (Founder & CEO, Mason Interactive), who shared proven strategies on how to think creatively and get new customers in B2B. Brook emphasized the importance of focusing on breaking through the noise rather than just relying on technology. He also highlighted the need to understand churn ratios, set specific customer targets, and advocated for a diversified media strategy.

Sivan Ohavim (CEO, Elevate Media), who shared insights on how B2B companies can strategically leverage LinkedIn to grow their audience and generate qualified leads. Sivan discussed why personalized outreach outperforms generic campaigns and talked about how to build targeted, high-quality lead lists that focus on specific buyer pain points.

Rebecca Shaddix (Founder & Managing Partner, Strategica Partners) on how to turn complex data into actionable B2B marketing strategies. Rebecca emphasized the importance of setting a clear strategy and highlighted the need for defining acceptable mistakes, aligning cross-functional teams early, and avoiding common pitfalls that impede performance.

Ermeric Ernoult (Co-Founder, Agorapulse), who shares powerful insights on how to drive B2B marketing success with social media. Emeric explained how to measure social media success and which approach he recommends marketers leverage for better results. He also provided actionable tips on how to get buy-in from senior management, outlined the key pitfalls to avoid, and elaborated on how marketers can simplify attribution to ensure they're focusing on the right metrics.

SaaS marketing expert Scott Cate (Founder, 301.Pro), who shares powerful insights on how sophisticated link management unlocks growth for B2B companies. Scott explained what Time-of-Day Marketing is, what it means for B2B businesses, and how marketers can use it to improve engagement and conversion rates.

B2B SaaS marketing leader Brandon Ring on how teams can leverage HubSpot for B2B marketing success. Brandon discussed why teams are setting themselves up for failure if they don't fully utilize HubSpot and emphasized the benefits of lead scoring, closed-loop reporting, and evergreen campaigns.

Tom Schwab (Founder & Chief Evangelist Officer, Interview Valet) on how strategic marketing leads to more profitable clients. Tom discussed why high-level clients are more responsive to meaningful conversations, such as targeted podcast interviews, rather than the conventional marketing funnel. He also emphasized the importance of understanding the client's unique needs and leveraging data-driven research to identify the right platforms.

Bill Rice (Principal Consultant, Bill Rice Strategy Group) on how 90-day marketing plans drive predictable growth in B2B. Bill outlined a proven framework for the 90-day marketing plan that strikes a balance between strategic planning with tactical execution. He also shared insights into common pitfalls to avoid, the importance of simplifying marketing tools, and the need for cross-functional collaboration to achieve success.

James Hurman (Founding Partner, Previously Unavailable) on how creativity leads to better results in B2B marketing. James emphasized the need for evidence-based marketing, advocating for a balanced budget between brand building and sales-focused advertising. He also outlined the pitfalls to avoid, the significance of executional quality, and the impact of familiarity bias.

Rai Cornell (Founder & CEO, Cornell Content Marketing) on how to get 90% pre-sold buyers using psychology-driven marketing. Rai advised against using manipulative tactics and emphasizes the power of long-form content to attract and engage audiences. She also discussed common pitfalls to avoid, the role of humor in building rapport, and the importance of prioritizing long-term content success over short-term revenue gains.

Dan Balcauski (Principal Consultant, Product Tranquility) on how customer segmentation directly influences B2B pricing strategies. Dan did a deep dive into the value cascade, which includes use value, exchange value, perceived value, and willingness to pay.

Becky Lawlor (Head of Content and Research, Redpoint) on how to discover what content drives B2B buyers to act. Becky emphasizes the importance of original research-based content in B2B marketing. She also outlined the key pitfalls to avoid, revealed which content formats are valued by buyers, and offered some practical tips on conducting interviews and crafting customer stories.

Aya Saad (CEO, Vivian Agency) on how B2B companies can effectively utilize affiliate and influencer programs to propel growth. Aya highlighted what she believes the “untapped opportunities” are for B2B, and outline some of the key do's and don'ts for successful affiliate and influencer marketing.

Laurier Mandin (President & CEO, Graphos Product) on how small B2B marketing teams can outperform larger competitors. Laurier highlighted how having a deep understanding of customer needs and developing a solid go-to-market strategy can lead to success. He also mentioned key pitfalls to avoid and provided actionable advice for validating a business, product, or service idea without a massive research budget.

Host Christian Klepp summarizes the B2B marketing highlights of 2024. He discusses the different B2B marketing categories, talks about the guests, and provides tips on what the audience would find useful in each episode.

Elzie Flenard III (Founder & CEO, Podcast Town) on how B2B companies can build strong communities for growth. Elzie advised against quick, superficial, and transactional efforts and emphasized the need for intentionality, understanding the audience, and building trust. He also discussed the key pitfalls to avoid and provided examples of how communities can help B2B companies become authorities in their niche.

Elzie Flenard III (Founder & CEO, Podcast Town) on how B2B companies can build strong communities for growth. Elzie advised against quick, superficial, and transactional efforts and emphasized the need for intentionality, understanding the audience, and building trust. He also discussed the key pitfalls to avoid and provided examples of how communities can help B2B companies become authorities in their niche.

Eisha Armstrong (Executive Chairman & Co-Founder, Vecteris) on how to effectively promote productized B2B services for maximum impact. She explained why the successful commercialization of productized offerings are much more than marketing campaign and training sellers. She also highlighted the main pitfalls to avoid, what the biggest obstacles are when companies productize, and how they can get to revenue faster and more efficiently.