Podcasts about ryan no

JLP Tue 8-6-24 Country & Western Tuesday! Hr 1 South Africa in America, Riots in England. They want you angry, fighting. Calls: Religion? // Hr 2 Calls: Did Renee sin against the Holy Spirit? Does Josh have a self? Supers… Lee knows how to make boys first. But, DNA test… // Hr 3 Lee: Sons with ex-wife turning away. Wife makes money. Ryan: It's the J's? Anna: Abortion guilt. Tony: Divorced "sucker"? Aman chasing "peace" // Biblical Question: Do you suffer the consequences of your actions? TIMESTAMPS (0:00:00) HOUR 1 (0:04:04) Country & Western Tuesday (0:06:09) South Africa in America: It's only going to get worse (0:19:30) Riots in England: Attack on little girls (0:29:04) They want you rioting. Overcome anger. BREAK (0:32:39) Govt against the people. Fear to speak up. Riots (0:37:31) Muslims, whites, fighting in England. Drop anger, fear. (0:41:14) "Free Palestine" in England. (0:44:04) Visitors in your home! You're lost. (0:46:19) COLTON, MO, 1st: Religion? Overcome thoughts. How to forgive mother (0:51:10) RENEE, Australia, 1st, filled with Spirit, unforgivable sin with ex? HOLD (0:55:00) NEWS … HOUR 2 (1:04:04) RENEE: Holy Spirit? BF. What's the unforgivable sin? Let HS be Teacher (1:09:04) RENEE: You're tripping. Let it go. God is clear in all things. (1:16:04) RENEE: You thought! All thoughts, all lies! Don't say won't do it (1:19:24) JOSH, GA: What self you judge? … BREAK (1:34:14) JOSH: BQ (1:35:34) Supers: Beta Nick? Women, wife. Darling, JLP sings (1:45:14) CHRISTOPHER, FL, 1st: War coming? Thanks. God's work, overcome! (1:47:02) LEE, FL, 1st: Thought JLP a troll! Boys first! DNA test, Fear, Pray? HOLD (1:55:00) NEWS … HOUR 3 (2:03:15) LEE: Mama's boys from prior marriage: Let 'em go. Fathers. (2:09:59) LEE: Wife makes more money! Worth more than the soul? Watch. (2:12:58) RYAN, MD, 1st: Children of evil is spiritual, more than Jewish people (2:19:16) RYAN: No power, just as whites, blacks! Wish them well. Freemason! (2:24:24) RYAN: True name of God is Father, not Yahweh (2:25:21) ANNA, Canada, 1st: Unborn babies' souls? She aborted. Guilty. (2:33:19) ANNA: Cheated, aborted. Let that go. God's not holding it against you. (2:37:01) ANNA: Impossible to judge with Wisdom… (2:39:38) ANNA: Mother a saint! Deceased. Don't know father, adopted. Pray! (2:42:52) TONY, NY, 1st: Divorce, signed under duress. Forgive unrepentant ex? (2:45:18) TONY: Never, ever give one thought what others think of you. "Sucker" (2:49:04) Supers: Clean homeless? BlaqRose (2:51:34) AMAN, India, 24: Don't call me sir. Tryna get peace back. Thrill (2:55:44) Closing: You're in your thoughts!

“The Show Must Go On with Lee and Ryan” “No Accountability for Hollywood Predators” “EV | Powered Disasters” “Gambling Stocks and Options”

Daniela and I sit down to discuss how we both are 100% committed to making our relationship work. We don't have any back up plans and we both give our relationship time and effort. Only one plan and we fully intend to make that one plan work. We go over how this has helped us to stay focused and dedicated to our relationship. If you want to see us cover another topic for the podcast, let us know! Reach out via the instagram page Somehow We're Adults or leave us a comment.

The experiences of the Irish in France during the war were overshadowed by the threat of internment or destitution. Up to 2,000 Irish people were stuck in occupied France after the defeat by Nazi Germany in June 1940. This population consisted largely of governesses and members of religious orders, but also the likes of Samuel Beckett, as well as a few individuals who managed to find themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time and ended up in internment camps (or worse). Isadore Ryan's book No Way Out: The Irish in Wartime France, 1939–1945 (Mercier Press, 2018) examines the engagement of the Irish in various forms of resistance. It also reveals that the attitude of some of the Irish towards the German occupiers was not always as clear-cut as politically correct discourse would like to suggest. There are fascinating revelations, most notably that Ireland's diplomatic representative in Paris sold quantities of wine to Hermann Göring; that Irish passports were given out very liberally (including to a convicted British rapist); that, in the early part of the war, some Irish ended up in internment camps in France and, through the slowness of the Irish authorities to intervene, were subsequently sent to concentration camps in Germany; and that a couple of Irish people faced criminal proceedings in France after the Liberation because of their wartime dealings with the Germans. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/new-books-network

The experiences of the Irish in France during the war were overshadowed by the threat of internment or destitution. Up to 2,000 Irish people were stuck in occupied France after the defeat by Nazi Germany in June 1940. This population consisted largely of governesses and members of religious orders, but also the likes of Samuel Beckett, as well as a few individuals who managed to find themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time and ended up in internment camps (or worse). Isadore Ryan's book No Way Out: The Irish in Wartime France, 1939–1945 (Mercier Press, 2018) examines the engagement of the Irish in various forms of resistance. It also reveals that the attitude of some of the Irish towards the German occupiers was not always as clear-cut as politically correct discourse would like to suggest. There are fascinating revelations, most notably that Ireland's diplomatic representative in Paris sold quantities of wine to Hermann Göring; that Irish passports were given out very liberally (including to a convicted British rapist); that, in the early part of the war, some Irish ended up in internment camps in France and, through the slowness of the Irish authorities to intervene, were subsequently sent to concentration camps in Germany; and that a couple of Irish people faced criminal proceedings in France after the Liberation because of their wartime dealings with the Germans. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/history

The experiences of the Irish in France during the war were overshadowed by the threat of internment or destitution. Up to 2,000 Irish people were stuck in occupied France after the defeat by Nazi Germany in June 1940. This population consisted largely of governesses and members of religious orders, but also the likes of Samuel Beckett, as well as a few individuals who managed to find themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time and ended up in internment camps (or worse). Isadore Ryan's book No Way Out: The Irish in Wartime France, 1939–1945 (Mercier Press, 2018) examines the engagement of the Irish in various forms of resistance. It also reveals that the attitude of some of the Irish towards the German occupiers was not always as clear-cut as politically correct discourse would like to suggest. There are fascinating revelations, most notably that Ireland's diplomatic representative in Paris sold quantities of wine to Hermann Göring; that Irish passports were given out very liberally (including to a convicted British rapist); that, in the early part of the war, some Irish ended up in internment camps in France and, through the slowness of the Irish authorities to intervene, were subsequently sent to concentration camps in Germany; and that a couple of Irish people faced criminal proceedings in France after the Liberation because of their wartime dealings with the Germans. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/military-history

The experiences of the Irish in France during the war were overshadowed by the threat of internment or destitution. Up to 2,000 Irish people were stuck in occupied France after the defeat by Nazi Germany in June 1940. This population consisted largely of governesses and members of religious orders, but also the likes of Samuel Beckett, as well as a few individuals who managed to find themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time and ended up in internment camps (or worse). Isadore Ryan's book No Way Out: The Irish in Wartime France, 1939–1945 (Mercier Press, 2018) examines the engagement of the Irish in various forms of resistance. It also reveals that the attitude of some of the Irish towards the German occupiers was not always as clear-cut as politically correct discourse would like to suggest. There are fascinating revelations, most notably that Ireland's diplomatic representative in Paris sold quantities of wine to Hermann Göring; that Irish passports were given out very liberally (including to a convicted British rapist); that, in the early part of the war, some Irish ended up in internment camps in France and, through the slowness of the Irish authorities to intervene, were subsequently sent to concentration camps in Germany; and that a couple of Irish people faced criminal proceedings in France after the Liberation because of their wartime dealings with the Germans. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The experiences of the Irish in France during the war were overshadowed by the threat of internment or destitution. Up to 2,000 Irish people were stuck in occupied France after the defeat by Nazi Germany in June 1940. This population consisted largely of governesses and members of religious orders, but also the likes of Samuel Beckett, as well as a few individuals who managed to find themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time and ended up in internment camps (or worse). Isadore Ryan's book No Way Out: The Irish in Wartime France, 1939–1945 (Mercier Press, 2018) examines the engagement of the Irish in various forms of resistance. It also reveals that the attitude of some of the Irish towards the German occupiers was not always as clear-cut as politically correct discourse would like to suggest. There are fascinating revelations, most notably that Ireland's diplomatic representative in Paris sold quantities of wine to Hermann Göring; that Irish passports were given out very liberally (including to a convicted British rapist); that, in the early part of the war, some Irish ended up in internment camps in France and, through the slowness of the Irish authorities to intervene, were subsequently sent to concentration camps in Germany; and that a couple of Irish people faced criminal proceedings in France after the Liberation because of their wartime dealings with the Germans. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/european-studies

The experiences of the Irish in France during the war were overshadowed by the threat of internment or destitution. Up to 2,000 Irish people were stuck in occupied France after the defeat by Nazi Germany in June 1940. This population consisted largely of governesses and members of religious orders, but also the likes of Samuel Beckett, as well as a few individuals who managed to find themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time and ended up in internment camps (or worse). Isadore Ryan's book No Way Out: The Irish in Wartime France, 1939–1945 (Mercier Press, 2018) examines the engagement of the Irish in various forms of resistance. It also reveals that the attitude of some of the Irish towards the German occupiers was not always as clear-cut as politically correct discourse would like to suggest. There are fascinating revelations, most notably that Ireland's diplomatic representative in Paris sold quantities of wine to Hermann Göring; that Irish passports were given out very liberally (including to a convicted British rapist); that, in the early part of the war, some Irish ended up in internment camps in France and, through the slowness of the Irish authorities to intervene, were subsequently sent to concentration camps in Germany; and that a couple of Irish people faced criminal proceedings in France after the Liberation because of their wartime dealings with the Germans. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/french-studies

Founder of React Rugby Derek McNamara talks to OTB's Ger Gilroy and Shane Hannon about the stats behind Ireland's Six Nations performances so far and what they can expect from Italy this weekend. Catch OTB's sports breakfast show LIVE weekday mornings from 7:30am or just search for OTB AM and get the podcast on the OTB Sports app or wherever you listen to yours. SUBSCRIBE and FOLLOW the OTB AM podcast. #OTBAM is live weekday mornings from 7:30am across Off The Ball, in association with Gillette | #EffortlessFlow

Frank Reich's platitudes and bouquets need to stop in favor of the truth. Good or bad, fans deserve to hear something honest from the coach of their team after the offensive coordinator is fired and a running back is traded without reasonable explanation. Truth must be offered or no one will believe a word! This "everyone is a leader" nonsense must end, and so should Reich's bromides. Jonathan Taylor did not practice and neither did Matt Ryan. Bill Self has been suspended for something - not sure or Kansas remembers what - but the NCAA's IARP will disband after it remembers! --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/the-kent-sterling-show/support

Today we have Capt. C.A. talking to Capt. Ryan Lambert of Cajun Fishing Adventures. They'll be talking to us about how The Lodge got its start, their history together, and fishing down in Louisiana! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It seems easier to find days Ryan didn't throw a no-hitter on. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This episode Frankie and I sat down with Marc Ryan from No If Customs. He started building in 2005, in his 3rd floor apartment in Boulder. ========================== Here's his story: "I just wanted to see if I could pull it off. I had basic woodworking skills, but in my 30 years of playing, I had never tackled much more than a repaint. I had a 50 hour a week job as a systems engineer, so this was definitely a free time project. I had no formal training but had made friends with a couple luthiers around the country. Thankfully, they gave me some great advice and were never against talking shop. I had minimal tools (Dremel, hand files/chisels/saws and a drill) but I had a lot of drive. My drive comes from that sense of accomplishment at the end of a project. Even if that project came with some hard-learned lessons, I had completed it. I had done it and knew how to make the next one better. My first two basses were built at the same time. Different shapes, different woods, different preamps; lots of challenges for myself. The process was very crude, but that was expected, given my environment and the tools that I had to work with. My brain's choice of woods was mostly purpleheart, wenge and bubinga, meaning that I broke probably eighty coping blades and burned out at least two drills. I broke screws because I didn't have pilot holes big enough for the denser woods. I had many moments of discouragement. There were days I could barely move my arms or use my hands and I asked myself what was I doing? I had two hundred hours invested, was this worth it? I pushed on and when I finished my first two and finally got to play them, it was such a rush. They looked, felt, played and sounded exactly how I wanted them to and I had made them from nothing. I intended on just building myself a bass in the style that I wanted but after showing the first couple off to friends and forums, I was asked if I was interested in selling them. I was even asked to sell them in a local store (which I did.) I had different friends wanting a build and the word spread. I am currently working on a couple of personal projects and have plans of launching the shop again in 2022." Marc noifcustoms@hotmail.com ======================== --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/bestbassgear/message

Larger companies get most of the press and excitement with their 6 and 7 figure marketing budgets, but the majority of clients we work with are smaller. And smaller companies have to do things a little differently than the big guys. What impact does a small budget have on driving traffic? How should small budget brands compete online? https://www.logicalposition.com/ TRANSCRIPT: Jon: Hey Ryan. So we get companies contacting us all the time, that don't have large, six or seven figure marketing budgets, and many times, those large clients get most of the press and excitement, but the majority of companies that end up investing in marketing are going to be smaller, and smaller companies have to do things a little bit differently. I want to ask you today, what impact does a small budget have on driving traffic and how do those small budget brands compete online? They obviously want to compete, they have to compete in order to grow, and I want to know what's the magic, how do they make that happen? I'm excited to talk to you about this today, and I guess I'll start pretty broad, in e-commerce, is there such a thing as too small of a budget? Ryan: Across the board as a broad general rule, no, but if you're really going to do something with your budget, then yes. I mean, you have to have enough budget to start moving things around and collecting data. And I think that initial starting budget, if you're a smaller business, is going to be important to determine how quick you can grow, how aggressive you can be, where are you going to find that opportunity to take the next step in the digital marketing evolution of your business? And I challenged a lot of business owners in this space, as I'm talking to smaller ones all the time. Like for example, yes, you can start with $100 a month budget, it's your money, and you can market it however you want, invest it however you want. But if you're e-commerce, you're e-commerce so that you can sell everywhere and have your online store open all the time, even when you're sleeping. And so if that's the case, $100 is not going to get you very far in marketing across the internet. And so if you're going to do something that small, you really need to be hyper, hyper, hyper-focused, which does limit your potential and opportunities to find little pockets where you can really dominate or win. And so I would generally say less than $1,000, there may be better places for your money than trying to drive traffic with it online. Jon: Interesting. I was going to ask, and maybe you've just answered, but I'd love your take on this too, if I only have $1,000 a month to spend, is it worth doing it or am I just throwing my money away, when we're talking about driving traffic through traditional paid media sense? Ryan: That's a difficult one because most business owners that are coming up with this $1,000 and you're smaller, that's a meaningful number to them probably, but they probably don't have the expertise to really make that $1,000 do as much as it can. And so you probably have to bring an expert in, and that costs money as well, because most people in the digital marketing world are not working for free. And so you have to figure in an expert generally, and I'll probably come back to that point, but for most businesses, I would say that you have to look at it through a lens of time and money. Jon: Okay. Ryan: Anybody can learn how to do digital marketing. You have to be able to study, you have to be able to go in and make some mistakes and learn it, but anybody can figure it out. It's definitely not the most complex thing you could be learning. But if you have more time, then you should be doing some of that work yourself and learning it and getting it to it like, "Can I get some basic things done?" If you have more money, than you need to hire people and your budget should probably be a little bit higher to be able to invest and push traffic. Jon: So we should be saying, when we say budget for today's conversation, should I be thinking about it as budget including the expert or budget just in what you would spend to drive traffic in these channels? Ryan: I think businesses should be looking at it together, but I think most business owners are thinking about, "Okay, I can spend $1,000 to drive traffic. Let's go put that on Google and make it work." I do believe though, the Googles in particular and I'll focus on Google for right now, but Google in particular has done some pretty cool things helping small e-commerce businesses get going. If you've got a feed and you're on a smaller platform, like if you're on Shopify, it's very, very simple to get up and running on Shopify and get your products going to Google. And then there's what Google is calling smart shopping campaigns that allow a business really to say, "Google, here's how much I'm willing to spend per day, and here's the goal I need to get out of it." It does not take an expert to get that up and running. And in fact, I tell companies, do not pay an agency to manage smart shopping campaigns because there's nothing to do. It can be a small piece of an overall structure, in fact, we at Logical Position do use smart campaigns in a small piece of a campaign occasionally, but we have to do a lot more work in the reporting and strategy on that type of client, to be able to justify charging management fees on smart campaigns. Jon: Okay. That makes sense. Ryan: Small budgets use more automation, I think, is the name of the game. Use things that are set up to make sure you don't just waste a bunch of money, and I think that's where a lot of small businesses, what keeps them from starting often is that fear of, "Oh my gosh, I'm going to go waste money trying to drive traffic because I don't know how to do it right." Doing some research, I think, can help keep that option to a minimum, that is just going to go out there and be a big waste. Jon: Let's say a company hasn't driven traffic on Google. How do they decide what that starting budget should be? Ryan: This generally comes down to, what's the business doing as a whole? If you're doing $100,000 a month on your website and you haven't been spending money, you probably have a larger amount you could start with then if I'm only doing $1,000 a month in sales. It's a threshold there of starting to look at it, but I generally say, in e-commerce, at least $1,000 to start with on Google. And then start thinking about it through a lens of, "I know I'm not going to be starting out at the gate if I'm doing it myself in a perfect world scenario." So there's going to be some learnings. I look at it through the lens of what's my light money on fire threshold, to let me get things going, and I've done this with new platforms on some of my brands. Nobody knew what they were doing yet, across the entire platform. Pinterest is being one of them. A couple years ago, it was just wide open. Nobody knew what it was going to do. I think they're getting some more structure in place and it's driving better traffic, but I went onto it saying, "Look, I don't know what it's going to do." My light money threshold at that point was, I think about 2,500 bucks, so I talked to Pinterest like, "Look, we can go a thousand a day for two and a half days if you want, or we can go $100 a day for about a month. I'm okay with either, whichever one you think is going to work better for me." And that was my light money on fire threshold, that I wasn't going to be mad, I was just like, "Yeah, that did suck, but I got some learnings." Pinterest didn't work for us at that point in time on that business, we'll continue to be revisiting it. But all that to come back around to it can't be a budget that if it doesn't work, it's going to tank your business, because there's a lot of unknowns if you haven't been on Google before, to how is your website going to convert, what traffic is going to work best for you. Because you'll take the same product with the same price for the same search query, going to two different sites and it's going to convert and there's going to be a different return on ad spend. And so with all of that unknown, anybody that tells you they know exactly what you're going to get by putting $1,000 out there, they're lying to you because there's no data to tell you one way or another. There's no way to know. Jon: Okay. So don't bet the farm. Ryan: Don't bet the farm, but it should probably make you a little uncomfortable. Jon: Okay. Ryan: When I'm looking at business decisions and I want to grow, and you know me, I tend to be on the aggressive side of things, I want what I'm risking to make me a little uncomfortable. I don't want it to be an easy decision or an easy thing to be like, "Okay." Could I have wasted $100 to test Pinterest? Yeah, but that was not an uncomfortable thing. 2,500 from me was a little bit uncomfortable. Partners and I talked through it and we're like, "Okay, if it returns nothing, that's not going to be great. But again, we're not going to lose the business because of a mistake if it doesn't work." So a little bit of uncomfort, I think, is good. Jon: Okay. So then let's say I have a thousand bucks, where do I start, Facebook, Google, something else? Ryan: I think generally it's going to come down to those two for most businesses to start off with. I think other platforms generally are younger and they are less proven and therefore generally higher up in the funnel. Like if you're going to jump right on TikTok or Snapchat for marketing and you haven't done Google or Facebook, I think it's going to be difficult to know if that platform is actually working for you, if you haven't gone to more advanced ones yet. And so when I talk to a business owner or a marketing team that's looking at deciding between both of those two to start, the easy way of looking at it as if there is existing market for your product, I generally say go to Google because you're going to capture people towards the bottom of the funnel as they're looking for your product. If you're creating a brand new category, there's not a lot of people searching for it on Google and so you're going to have to figure out how to create that and find the right audiences on Facebook and convince people to start trying you to build that search volume. So for example, last week I talked to a guy, his company makes edible bubbles and I'm like, "I have never heard of this before.'. Jon: Isn't that bubblegum? Ryan: Yeah. This is for kids going out and playing and blowing bubbles, he makes edible bubbles. And I had no idea my kids would want that until he sent me some samples and they're actually pretty cool. Jon: That's awesome. Ryan: But they actually make them for bars. Someday when we get to go back to a bar, they make these bubbles you can blow on top of a drink, and a lot of times they infuse them with smoke for presentations. Jon: That's cool. That's a great idea. Ryan: So really cool stuff, but there's not a target market yet that they know to search for that. So I, before last week, never would have even considered searching for the term edible bubble or edible bubble for a drink or bar drink presentation bubbles, that's just not even there. And so for that type of business, you've got to go on Facebook, you've got to target bartenders, you've got to target moms with kids, with the kid bubble one. And there's some really cool targeting on Facebook, and if you've got a good visual and some good offers, I think Facebook can work really well. For other businesses, Facebook generally will hit top of funnel like that, and so the return, again, generalizations, is going to be a little bit lower than if you had run some bottom funnel, Google stuff to figure out where people are searching for your product and what are your advantages and all of that. Jon: So we're talking the difference between perhaps intent versus awareness? Ryan: Yes. Like if there's already people searching with intent for your products or services, I would go capture them first. It's going to be a little more expensive per click, possibly, there's generally going to be more competition, but it's an existing demand that you're tapping into. You've just got to figure out how you're going to compete there. If you're creating a brand new product that nobody's ever searched before, you probably can't even spend your money on Google on search terms, you're going to be on broad match keywords on Google wasting money. Jon: Right. No, that definitely makes sense, then Announcer: You're listening to Drive and Convert, the podcast focused on e-commerce growth. Your hosts are Jon MacDonald, founder of The Good, a conversion rate optimization agency that works with e-commerce brands to help convert more of their visitors into buyers. Ryan Garrow, of Logical Position, the digital marketing agency offering pay-per-click management, search engine optimization and website design services, to brands of all sizes. If you find this podcast helpful, please help us out by leaving a review on Apple podcasts and sharing it with a friend or colleague. Thank you. Jon: What other things tactics do the smaller budgets need to be aware of? What else would you consider? Ryan: Some of the tactics I talked about when looking at smaller budgets on advertising and driving traffic, don't even have to do with the tactics to drive the traffic. A lot of small businesses, even over the last year with COVID and a lot of brick and mortar moving into online, a lot of them haven't thought about what is my advantage online? If you are selling the exact same product at the exact same price, and you have no discernible advantage over a competitor, what are you doing? Try to figure out, before you go spend money, why somebody is going to buy from you. And you can't really tell me that your advantage online is going to be because you have really smart salespeople inside, or you have a lot of knowledge in your industry, because that's not going to come across in Google shopping. Nobody cares how much you know, they don't know how much people know when they're just going to a website and transacting. And so you've got to figure out what that advantage looks like first. Why should somebody buy from you versus a competitor, if they've never met either one of you and all they're doing is seeing your website because the internet is the great equalizer and small companies can't compete with big companies, if they're better at certain things. Better at converting, if all of your competitors are stuck on really ancient Yahoo stores that are 20 years old, and you're going to come in there with a Shopify or a big commerce site, that's really easy to convert on. That can be a significant advantage, even if everything else is the same. Jon: It's funny, you say that, a friend and I were just talking about that and we were laughing, saying a great business model would be to just go to find a index of all the remaining Yahoo stores making over a million dollars a year and just replicate that on a better platform, with better usability and you would print money. Ryan: Why are we doing a podcast? Let's go get a list and start making business. But it's true. I think we still have 50 clients on Yahoo and some of them are, I think, are on the RTML, that really old coding platform, that if you're not 50, you've never even heard of that. And I only heard about it because we have clients on it. Jon: Yeah. Look, I mean, I think a lot of these stores take the approach of, if it's not broke, don't fix it. And they're still printing money, so why change it? I think they're going to ride that till the end. So somebody will come along and end them by doing something better, but you got to find it first. Talking about that is one of the things that the platform could be, one thing that these smaller companies are doing wrong. But thinking about smaller budgets, if they're sending traffic to their site, what do most of these smaller budgets do wrong? What mistakes are they making with their small budgets? Ryan: I think a lot of them, if they do have some advantages and they do have a reason to market, a lot of them make the mistake of not being aggressive enough. I think I've mentioned this probably multiple times, but a lot of small business owners really watch their P and L and all line items going in and out of the business, which is good. But when they come to Google ads, it can quickly become a very large line item and they want to focus on, hey, I need to increase profits, so we need to start cutting this budget and controlling Google, because if I control something in the middle of my P and L, the bottom gets bigger. And unfortunately, something like a Google ads or Facebook ad, is generally driving top line number that does translate into bottom line number, but if you eliminate what's driving that top line, it can really have an opposite effect of what you're intending. And so it's really a paradigm shift. If you're looking at your budget like a line item, you start looking at it as you're investing in getting new customers and then what are you going to do with it? Don't see Google ads or Facebook ads as a cost necessarily, unless you're purposely losing money and you have to control that piece, but that's a whole different story and most small businesses are not doing that, so I won't dive into that necessarily now. But then trying to figure out, okay, once you've got a customer, what are you going to do with them? Because Google and Facebook, they're a marketing channel and you're going to have to give some or all of that initial order margin to the platform to get the customer. And that allows you to compete and capture more market share, but if that margin is going to the platform, it's not going to you, the business owner or marketing teams future budgets. So you've got to do lifetime value, figure out what you're going to be doing to bring them back. So many times small businesses are thinking about, I've got to get customers, I've got to get customers, so I've got a market. Okay, good, you do have to do that, but you can't keep trying to do that without focusing on the customers you do have. What happened to the customers from last month, what are you doing with them? If you're not emailing them, if you don't have a loyalty program, you're essentially wasting all of this effort that you're doing to successfully bring new customers into the brand. And so that's where I see most struggles, because then they'll just be like, "Oh, Google was terrible. It took all my profit and then I had nothing." Jon: Well, we've talked about this several times on the show, of understanding that it's okay on that first sale to break even, and your customer acquisition costs might be high on that first sale, but you have to have a longer term game plan in place. Is it a subscription type product that you're going to use, if you have a consumable, is it something where you're able to continue to market to them afterwards, but you're doing it in a way that is going to continue to drive down the customer acquisition, but up the lifetime value over time? That definitely makes a lot of sense. So, okay, we've heard a lot of disadvantages to being small here today, but there's still a fact that most brands are going to be in that small budget. What are the advantages, what's the positive side, the glass half full here, what's the advantages to being smaller advertisers? Ryan: Yep. There's no secret that having more money can have more advantages in advertising, I mean, that's just basic marketing 101. But what I've seen through a lot of small businesses and having my own that compete against much larger brands, is you inherently have more flexibility. In fact, we were just laughing before we got on and started recording, about politics in larger companies, having all these things that you have to wade through to get things approved, or to do things, where you can't move quickly into new markets, because there's all these layers of approval. Small businesses, hopefully don't have that problem. And it's like, if you see an opportunity, you can just go do it and there's not a lot of people that have to sign off on. It's like, no, I'm going to go capitalize on that change in the market or that area that hasn't been attacked by larger brands. And so that can be a huge advantage, but I still think a lot of small businesses don't think of it that way and look at it, hey, I can afford to make mistakes and learn from them very, very quickly and pivot and adjust. And I can test new products on my site, I can test things on my site as a small business that I don't have to go to a web dev team. I can make quick little changes on my Shopify site to say, "Hey, let's see if this works or not. Let's run it for a week and if it doesn't work, flip it back." So much opportunity to test and so few small businesses actually taking advantage of that. I mean, I can't say the number of times that we've tested small things, even on Joyful Dirt, as we're moving very quickly and say, "Hey, let's test this or test this." That many of them work. I mean, we've got a really smart team that can come up with really cool ideas to test. For example, this month we did a black history month label, so we just, "Hey, let's just do a small run of a few hundred labels and see what happens." And larger brands can't in mid January, decide to do a label run for a specific event and try to get it to work. We're like, "Yeah, let's just see if it works. And so based on the success, we're going to do this multiple times throughout the year for different events and just have custom labels. Jon: That's a great idea. Ryan: Because we can. Jon: I believe this is called the innovator's dilemma. So when you're at a large corporation, you as an individual can come to the table and say, "I want to do custom labels for this month, starting in two weeks." But you have so much red tape to get through that you can actually affect the change that you want to affect. So that's a definite competitive advantage for a small brand, I can completely understand how that would work in their advantage. So that's great. Is there any other advantages that we should be thinking about? Ryan: I think being smaller also forces you to pay attention to details, that larger brands don't have to. We have a lot of large clients that focus on such macro level numbers, 35,000 foot layer of saying, "Hey, what's our data? How much should we spend? What is this?" And there's not the deep dive on, "Okay, how can I squeeze this little bit more out of this product?" It exists on a few large brands, but generally it doesn't matter to them on the small little minutia. And I think smaller brands, really have an opportunity because there is less data to sift through, they can quickly see where markets may be changing or evolving, that larger brands aren't going to catch till later. So you have to be willing to be aggressive and move quick when you see them, but you might see, even on Amazon, this is a massive thing with one of our clients where there's a couple really big players in vital wheat gluten, for example, on Amazon and the volume of sales on baking products on Amazon, is astronomical, I had zero clue until we started working with this company. Jon: Yeah, would not have suggested or thought that. Ryan: No, I'm like, "Vital wheat gluten," that's a very specific product for a very specific niche of people. Jon: Baking in general on Amazon, you would think there's no way. Ryan: It blew me away. But because the volume is so high, everybody selling FBA can only send in, because vital wheat gluten comes in, it's heavy and it comes in five pound bags or two pound bags, so it takes up enough shelf volume that you can't get 50,000 units in there at a time. And because you're usually co-packing, you're getting pallets delivered, and once it's down, you can't all of a sudden like, I'm just going to send 10 units today to take care of the sales. It's massive in and out of stocks all over the place. And so smaller advertisers could leverage that by saying, "All right, if I have my own fulfillment house, I can always keep a seller central product in stock on Amazon. Even if my FBA stock goes out," and you can play a lot of games and figure out what part of the country is or is not working. But that type of flexibility as a small brand, can pay huge dividends just by being aware of some of the struggles of your larger competitors. If your larger competitor has a disgusting amount of aging inventory, they've got problems probably floating the next purchase. Whereas you may not have that problem as a small advertiser, and you can even use drop shipping through one of the partners that could help you. So I think small companies have some significant advantages and I enjoy that part because it is more exciting to grow a smaller brand to take on a larger one. I do it myself, I add to this one. Jon: You'd love to take down the big guy. Ryan: IT do. Jon: Who doesn't? I mean, if you're in business, you're a competitor, just the way it is. Ryan: Oh yeah. And I love competing. And so it's fun as smaller business, but it does take a mentality that you are going to scrap and do everything you can to make it work. And when you come in with that mentality, I think it's very difficult to fail on Google ads or Facebook ads, because you're not accepting that it's not going to work. You see the data, you know people are spending money in your industry and they may not all be making money, but there's consistent effort there. And you just have to get to the point where you can wade through it and make it work because it will. Jon: Well on that note, any parting thoughts on this? I feel like I'm sufficiently equipped if I were a small brand advertising. You're giving me some renewed hope, that's for sure, that my $1,000 per day or per month, excuse me, would actually go someplace. Ryan: Yeah. The only thing I will say is that I do believe quality help will go a long way. You can be a small advertiser as a business owner and spend $1,000 if you learn and you're quick enough at adjusting and pivoting and looking at data, you're going to learn how to do it, but it might take you six, seven, eight months to get the point where you could have started at that point with an expert. And so it's at least worth interviewing a couple of agencies to see what it is they could do to help you if you bring experts on to manage that $1,000 spend. Yes, you're going to have to pay an agency extra cost, but can they get you moving towards your target at a quicker rate? I think often they can, but even if you're going to do it yourself, at least talk to somebody else that really knows what they're doing to see what the advantages could be. Jon: Well, and it could be huge too, if you get a higher return on that ad spend, that margin difference, they pay for themselves. It's like working with a great CPA, they're going to get you a bigger refund than if you did it yourself. So that covers their fees and hopefully more. Ryan: For sure. Jon: All right Ryan, well, thank you for your expertise on this. I know you guys work with thousands. Every time I talk to you, it's another thousand. So I'll just say thousands and thousands of clients at Logical Position, and a lot of those are smaller ones and you guys have learned a lot from that. So thank you for sharing all of the expertise you've learned. Ryan: Oh yeah. Thank you, Jon. I appreciate the time. Announcer: Thanks for listening to Drive and Convert, with Jon McDonald and Ryan Garrow. To keep up to date with new episodes, you can subscribe at driveandconvert.com.

There are seven different types of people that you're going to find coming to your site. And if you can understand who these people are in each one of their buckets, you're going to be able to help each one of them convert because they're all going to look at your site a little bit differently. So how do we understand who they are? And what do we need want to know how do we convert these people? Jon's got the answers! TRANSCRIPT: Announcer: You're listening to Drive and Convert, a podcast about helping online brands to build a better e-commerce growth engine, with Jon MacDonald and Ryan Garrow. Ryan: Well, Jon, welcome to the Drive and Convert podcast. You've done a lot of writing, to say the least. You've got some phenomenal content out there on the internet and as somebody that reads most of your content and speaks to you often, it's always good to read. So if you're listening to this, go find Jon and all of his content on his website. I highly recommend it. You will come away as a smarter human. But one of the fascinating concepts that at least for me seems fairly unique to your brain and at least the content you're putting out is the idea of there are seven different types of people that you're going to find coming to your site. And if you can understand who these people are in each one of their buckets, you're going to be able to help each one of them convert because they're all going to look at your site a little bit differently or want to do slightly different things. But I guess step one is just, how do we understand who they are? And then we want to know how do we convert these people? We've got them to the site. We know who they are, now how do we convert them? So I'm excited to hear about this because I can never get enough insight into how to make my businesses and my clients' businesses work better. But can you kick us off just by telling us who are the seven personas that you're seeing on the internet coming to websites? Jon: Well, thank you, first of all, for the kind of compliments on the content. I'm blushing over here if you can't see that. Yes, there are seven and a lot of people think, seven that's a lot. But the reality here is there might be some overlap in these as well, right? And these are all different types of people that you really need to address on your site. And so many people don't do that, that it really led me to write this content. So the first set of folks coming to your site are what I call lookers, right? These are people who are just looking. They're browsers, if you will, right? They're not after any one thing in particular, they're having fun just looking around. They want to see what you offer that maybe will catch your attention. Honestly, they may even have been just searching around Google for different types of products and ended up at your site, not necessarily by mistake, but they ended up there and now they're just looking at what you have to offer. Really you just need to understand that not everybody who approaches your site's going to buy. Most e-comm sites know that, right? Because their conversion rate's not a hundred percent or else we wouldn't exist. But the reality here is that you still need to address this audience. A second one to be thinking about is bargain hunters. These are people who are only at your site because you're having a sale or some type of offer. Ryan: Hopefully, it's not a discount. Jon: Exactly. That would be my point of view. But that's what they're looking for there. They're trained, as we have said, several times, they're trained to look for that sale. And so there are people, and there is a segment of folks who will only buy if something's at a perceived bargain, right? And they really want to see if they can find the bargain. Sometimes it's the thrill of finding the bargain that really gets to them. The third you really want to think about it as the buyers. Now, it seems pretty obvious, but some people are really on a mission. They know exactly what they want and they're there to get it. So they searched for the model number, they found your site, and they are ready to buy. And so you really want to facilitate that. A fourth is researchers. Some folks are just researching. They have a general idea of what they're after, but they want to compare those options and the prices. So, a lot of people will go to Amazon for this, but now, a lot of people are doing that on brand sites as well. They go to Amazon and they find the product they want but then they end up on your brand site after they've done that research. They find the model number on Amazon, they Google it to find more details about the brand behind the product. Amazon isn't always the best at having product details, right? So a lot of times you'll end up on a brand site trying to do that and that's what these folks are. Ryan: Now, what would be the big differentiator on the researchers and the lookers? Because a lot of similarities between the two, but what would be the key differentiators in your mind? Jon: The key differentiator is the researcher knows what they want. They know what they're looking for. The lookers are ... It's kind of like wandering around a mall versus going right into the Apple store. You're at the mall but you beeline it for one shop because you know that you need something from that shop. Where you might just go to the mall to hang out, right? If that's even a thing, post-COVID one day, we'll see. Ryan: Someday we'll get back to a mall, maybe. Jon: New customers is another one. People don't really think about that often. And this is really where some visitors are just going to be new customers. They enjoyed their last visit. Maybe they were a looker on their last visit and now they're there to find out more and potentially become a new customer. Perhaps these are people who you should really be thinking about post-purchase, like they just purchased. What happens at that point, right? So these could be people who are buying from you the first time. And it's an audience you really need to be thinking about because you need to make them feel welcomed and appreciated. One that a lot of people don't think about is dissatisfied customers. Everybody has them. I don't care if your net promoter scores is perfect or you don't hear about these complaints. Everybody has a dissatisfied customer or more. And that's okay. These people are there for a number of reasons and it might not always be that bad. Maybe they're just dissatisfied because it didn't fit the way they thought it would, but they still like the product, they're there to return or exchange. For some reason, a previous purchase didn't suit them and now they want customer service. And the goal here is to make it easy for them to get that and perhaps even do self-service where possible. And the last one, seven of seven, we blew right through these, but we'll dive into each in a second, but this is loyal customers. So some of these are your best customers. They come back, they love shopping with you. They love your product and then they're going to be repeat customers. So, that's the seven. To run them real quick, it's lookers, bargain hunters, buyers, researchers, new customers, dissatisfied customers, and loyal customers. Ryan: Got it. So we know what personas people are in, generally. And then are there ways outside of the types of traffic that you help decide who this one is on the site to do that, or is it, I just want to make sure the site works for all of them? Jon: You really want to make sure the site works for all of them. And I think that there's many ways to group people into these different types. As I said earlier, they could be multiple types. But I heard you say the word persona, and I think I really want to make clear that it's easy to get dragged into things like personas, or where people are in the sales funnel, or warm, hot, and cold leads and visitors, or any of those things that can really just take you down the rabbit hole if you will, right? And I see this all the time where we ask people, who's your ideal customer, and they give us an avatar of somebody that has flowcharts, and photos of Charlie, the avid runner, and his demographics, and preferences, and what soda he drinks, or what bottled water he prefers, and all of that stuff doesn't really matter. It's never really put to good use, especially when it comes to optimizing a website, because that guy, Charlie, the runner, he was generated in the mind of the brand. He's not an actual consumer, right? So what you really want to do here is just keep it simple. Really you just want to focus on better serving each of these. And by doing that, you're likely to increase your conversions for each of these. Additionally, if you go any deeper than that, you're unlikely to get started because you'll end up in this, as I said earlier, rabbit hole of trying to figure out who Charlie is. Well, Charlie, isn't going to be all seven of these, right? So don't worry about Charlie and don't worry about going so deep. Ryan: Because you might have your ... If you've done the persona thing as a brand, you could have your same persona being all of these types. And so at the same time, keep this very top level when you're looking at your site and trying to guide traffic and just do what Jon says at the end of the day. Jon: If the world only worked that way. I'll have you call my wife after this and tell her that too. Ryan: Yeah, you do the same for me when we're talking about driving traffic. Okay. But we've got to tell people how do we take these groups of traffic and these people and get them to take the action we want them to take on the site. Because I'm guessing to a degree, not all of them are the same conversion either. Jon: Very accurate. That's true. Ryan: So we've got to think about that as well. Like a disgruntled customer is probably different than a looker at the end of the day, as far as action. So guide our listeners and viewers around what that looks like and how you're seeing converting those people. Jon: Well, let's break them down one by one, shall we? So start with lookers, really is what I would recommend here. And I think the thing to be thinking about here is with lookers is you're going to catch your attention and get them to stop that just shopping and not browsing long enough to consider some type of offer or something that gets their attention, right? So if you know your customers well enough, which most brands listening to this will, they'll know what will entice their customers. And I'm not just talking about an offer or a special or deal or anything of that sense, I'm also saying what's that one feature that makes you unique and makes you stand out? What's the benefit of the product that's really going to hit home for these people? They're at your site because they had a pain or a problem they're trying to solve. And they think your products can help them solve that problem. So you really want to make sure that you're putting that right upfront to get these people's attention early. But know also, it could take a few sales to get these people in there, right? So don't be discouraged when you see the bounce rate up there because people are just looking and leaving. That's what they do. That's why I call them lookers. Ryan: I hate when people talk to me about bounce rate. Take your bounce rate to the bank. Have them tell you what that's worth. Jon: Yeah, it doesn't help, right? Ryan: No. Jon: And it's a metric so many people chase, I think, thinking, oh, I can get my bounce rate down. Okay, this one goes in with time on-site with me as well. So many people track time on-site and I think it's a false metric because if you think about it, I'm there to get my tasks done. I'm there because I want to buy this product, or even if I'm just looking around, I generally have an idea of what I'm doing at your site. I might just still be browsing, but I have an idea of why I'm there. The problem with this is if I'm there for 10 minutes, you've made my life really complicated. I'm there because I need something, I'm looking around, and then the problem is I can't find that or I got sucked into something and I'm there for 10 minutes. As opposed to, I would much rather have customers who are at my site for three minutes and buy, right? And then I have their information. I can continue to market to them at another opportunity. But if somebody is spending 10, 20 minutes on your site, we probably have some type of usability problem. Ryan: Well, and also I laughed when you started talking about catching their attention because I know you're going to tell people it is not a pop-up telling them to join your email list for 10% off your first order, especially if you're a looker. Jon: Yep. I agree with that. Ryan: That is not going to be a quality email. Jon: Not at all. But you do want to encourage them to get on your mailing list but not through a discount, not through a pop-up, really encourage them in other ways so that you can then follow up with them later. Maybe that's something like an upcoming new release that they might be interested in, right? You should be thinking about it in that way. Once you've kind of got their attention, then how are you going to continue to keep that attention and continue to market to them? This is where I hear you say all the time, you're happy to pay for ads and break-even knowing you're building your customer roster. And I think that this is a good opportunity to be thinking about that without actually converting for a sale, right? This is what we would call a micro-conversion, where they're doing something that's not actually an exchange of money. Ryan: Now I would venture a guess and you can probably correct me if I'm wrong, but lookers probably make up the largest portion of traffic to most e-comm sites. Jon: Yes. There's a reason that I put them first on the list. It's because it's going to be the vast majority. Ryan: So it's a vast majority. You've worked with some pretty large brands with the ability to test measure lots of different things. Top of mind, obviously on the fly because we didn't talk about this beforehand, but what's a good implementation of this catch your attention that you've seen implemented that caused the brand to continue to be able to grow and push these lookers further down the funnel? Jon: Yeah. So this is where things like we were just looking at a company that sells a bunch of different pants. The price point was like $128 for a pair of pants. And I was like, man, that's, that's kind of expensive. I'm just looking at these pants. I don't really need a pair of pants right now. But the reality is what caught my attention was that they are five times stronger than jeans and I can do a lot of different activities in them. And that caught my attention because now I'm thinking, "Wow, they're going to last a lot longer than jeans and I probably spent $100 on a pair of jeans." So what's 28 more dollars to have them last five times as long as jeans, right? So just something like that, the benefit is really going to hit that. And I'm the target audience for that site I was looking at. So, these lookers, they're likely, the vast majority of them should be your target audience. If you're working with Ryan in Logical Position, then you're driving qualified traffic. And so assuming you're driving qualified traffic and these lookers end up there, they're going to be within your demographic of who is your ideal customer, so then really it's all about connecting with them on the benefit. Ryan: Got it. Okay. I think that's a great thing. It's easy to execute for most brands, I think. Jon: Yeah, for sure. So we can also talk about for each of these how I would recommend converting these. And I think for the lookers, I would want to really just make sure the e-commerce site is easy to navigate and search because really that's what they're here to do, is just walk around the store, right? So make it easy. Don't put barriers in their way, help them get where they want to go, and give them a really excellent reason to give them that email address that we talked about or other contact information, and so you can build a relationship with a nurturing campaign. That site I was just talking about, they had a bi-weekly $150 gift card that they would give to somebody who signed up. So you're entered to win a $150 gift card every other week, which is great because of $128 pair of jeans, I might get those for free. So if I'm seriously interested and I want to continue to stay in touch with this brand, I might've given them my email address there, right? And then another way really here is cart abandonment because a lot of lookers will add stuff to cart as a way of holding it to compare and look at when they're done browsing your store. It's kind of like if you go shopping and you might pick up a couple of different pairs of clothing or something off the rack when you're walking around the store because, "Oh, I like this. I might like it. Let me see what else they have too." And then you end up with three or four things, right? It's the same thing browsers are doing on your website. They're throwing it in their cart and then they want to just take a look at that and evaluate after. So having some type of cart abandonment there can be a great way to captivate their interest. Ryan: Awesome. Jon: So next would be bargain hunters. With bargain hunters, it's really not about discounting, right? That's not conversion optimization. I think you know my stance on discounting. People who listened to this show will know I'm fervent about not discounting, right? But instead, really look to offers like free shipping, or gift with purchase, BOGO. We did a whole episode on this. People really want to know the alternatives, they exist. And really here, you just want to be thinking about things like current offers on your website. Don't make your customer's desert at the checkout and then go elsewhere to find that bargain or that special code. If they have to go to any of those sites, they're not coming back. And so we really don't want to drive them there. And you might also highlight, last chance or clearance items instead of making shoppers really go find those on your site. It could be really good on every category to have a little tout or badge or flag on each product that says something about how it's last chance, or low inventory, or something that's on clearance. Ryan: Now, do you advocate for having a clearance or an outlet navigation button on brand sites for this type of thing? Jon: Generally not. Where I want to see that as within the category because, yes, having a clearance item ... A lot of brands will put that in the main navigation. The problem is you're wasting a really critical main navigation slot. You only want five to six navigation items to begin with. And if you're taking clearance as one of those or something of that sort, a sale, I see a lot of people have sale in main navigation, what's going to happen is people are going to go there first and they're not going to get a total view of your products. Usually, the products that are in that clearance are in clearance for a reason. They weren't really popular. So why do you want the first impression of what your product should be, for a person coming into your site to see, is only the products that other people normally wouldn't buy and they're on clearance, right? So instead, mix clearance in with your other products. That way you're not promoting only your worst sellers if you will. Ryan: A couple interesting points that deviate a little bit from what we're talking about, but it's applicable in that I can afford most things on the sites I go to, but I am cheap by default so I always go to the clearance button first. Because I'm like if I can find what I'm looking for on clearance first, I'm going to get it. Even though if I didn't see clearance, I would have gone to the product and probably bought a higher price one by default because that's just how I operate on a site. But also, when you are throwing discounted products on your site, and there's a clearance section that they are in, if your Google shopping is not set up properly, all of those products would have been going into the clearance section and you can be stuck in the clearance section of the site and you're going to be staying in there most of the time. And because products are discounted price, generally get to show more often in Google shopping because they're lower price point or there's a discounted price, you will, unfortunately, be sending a lot of discounted traffic to your site when that maybe is not the focus of your brand. So some brands I advocate for having an outlet site that's completely separate. Jon: That's a great point. Ryan: Kind of like Gap Outlet, their stores, they sell all their old stuff and they'll have a separate site, and then having the people going to gap.com on that. Jon: That's a great point. And that probably makes Kanye very happy as well. Next up is buyers. Buyers should be buying from you in a way that's hassle-free, right? These people want to buy. They're there to buy. They have a job. That's one job that they're there to do and that's to buy, so let them buy. Clear these obstacles, make it easy and simple to buy, really be thinking here about the bottlenecks in the path to purchase that people must take, right? What are the hurdles you're asking them to jump over? Let's get rid of those. A really great way to look at this is to do user testing, get people who fit your ideal customer profiles, and have them run through your site while you record it and talk about the challenges they're having. Again, the whole goal here is to get outside the jar, read the label from outside the jar. And it's really hard to do that when you're too close to it. So really be focusing on just eliminating every single possible barrier, too many fields on checkout, making people create an account before they buy, all of those things that would be extra steps or what we're looking to eliminate with these. Ryan: And be clear on your shipping rates. That's the one that makes me so mad lately, is people not telling me what I'm going to pay for shipping, so it'll increase your cart abandonment too. Jon: Yeah, Exactly. I mean, these people are ready to buy until they saw you were going to charge them 20 bucks to ship, right? And so, there you go. Perfect case study. Announcer: You're listening to Drive and Convert, a podcast focused on e-commerce growth. Your hosts are Jon MacDonald, founder of The Good, a conversion rate optimization agency that works with e-commerce brands to help convert more of their visitors into buyers, and Ryan Garrow of Logical Position, a digital marketing agency offering pay-per-click management, search engine optimization, and website design services to brands of all sizes. If you find this podcast helpful, please help us out by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts and sharing it with a friend or colleague. Thank you. Jon: All right. Should we move on to researchers? Ryan: Yes. Jon: Really, researchers, my point of view on these is these folks need to just make sure that they feel like they've considered their options and they're making the right decision. And your job, your only job is to help them do that. So what does this look like? Well, provide all the info you can think of, dimensions, instructions, details, data, data, data. That's what these people want, right? They're comparing. They came to your site because as I mentioned earlier, they were on Amazon, the Amazon didn't have the details, so they're relying on your site to have them. And you want to help them just make an informed decision. This could be everything from product reviews from other consumers to video. Researchers love video because they can see the products in motion and in use. Somebody even just holding the product and walking them through it. Specialized Bicycles does an amazing job of this. They actually have employees of Specialized, not models or anything else. It's employees hold the bike and then walk a consumer through it on video. And it's really, really well done. It does not have to be ... They shoot it in a studio, but it doesn't feel like it's a super well-polished and professional video on purpose, right? It's not some high production quality. You're aiming for your local news versus the national morning show, right, in level of quality here. Ryan: Got it. Jon: So the other thing is, really help these people understand things like sizing and photography. Video, I mentioned. So those are the things you just really want to help people dive into are all these different decision points. All right, new customers. These folks, they really want to feel like they've made a wise decision or that you want them to feel like they can make a wise decision, understand your warranties, helping people stand behind their products. You want to make sure that you're glad that they are your customer and make them know that. So this is where you think about retail source. Like your wife's retail store, right? She's there to answer questions. She can help out with returns. She'll generally just express gratitude when these people are shopping, right? It's hard to do that online, but this is where it becomes really, really important that you're doing things like building relationships with nurturing campaigns. And that can start with, as I mentioned earlier, a post-purchase campaign. What happens after this new customer becomes a new customer, right? They're no longer a visitor, they're now a customer. What do you need to do there? Loyalty campaigns, a huge way to engage these folks, right? You get them in and say, "Thank you so much for your first purchase. Here is points for your next purchase," or, "Two more purchases and your fourth one is free." Something of that sort, right? Where you're helping these loyal people become loyal customers. That's really what this is all about. Ryan: And these people just purchased, so maybe they haven't even gotten the product yet or maybe they just got it. Jon: Exactly. Ryan: Even just user videos on how to use the product you're getting can be valuable. I do that with Joyful Dirt. Jon: That's a great point, right? So what can you send as that follow-up email flow while the people are waiting for their package to make sure they know that you have their back, right? So if I bought Joyful Dirt, what do I need to prep for? Is there a season I should be doing this in? How much water do I need to apply? All these other types of things that I probably don't really think about, but are really key to somebody getting the most out of the product and buying again, right? If I follow your instructions for Joyful Dirt, I am more likely to have a good experience and then buy again, then if I just use the product without reading the instructions, which is more likely for me than not so. Ryan: What I appreciate on it too, on that first email after I purchase, usually the next day, it builds the anticipation because often I forget what I bought yesterday and I get surprised by Amazon in two days, who are the site I purchased it on. And so you're like, "Oh, yeah, I do have that coming in a day." I'm excited to get it now because I was excited yesterday when I bought it, and I forgot today, and then tomorrow when it arrives, I get excited. So it's a good way to continue that kind of that high from my purchase that I just paid. Jon: How is there not a phrase like the Amazon phenomenon or something, where everybody forgets what they ordered at Amazon at midnight the night before and then it shows up two days later and you're like, "Oh, yeah, I was looking for that. That was great. I'm a genius." Ryan: I know. I was like, well, I knew I wanted one of these and like, oh, I did want one and then I bought it. It was great. In college, it would have been, "Man, what did I do at 2:00 AM?" and talk about, "Oh, I had a bean burrito." Now, it's just transaction fatigue or something. And I'm just [crosstalk 00:25:48]. Jon: That was much lower key than I thought you were going there, Ryan. 2:00 AM in college. But this happened to me recently where I was working out with a trainer and we do an outdoor workout in my garage now. And it was really funny because he didn't bring his TRX bands. If you know about these TRX straps, they're a way to do workouts. And the reality is that I went on and I just ordered a pair from Amazon. I was like, "Well if you ever forget them again, I'll have some here." And totally forgot about it. And then the next workout came by and the Amazon guy literally showed up two days later while we were working out. So it had been like two days to the hour and the guy shows up and I'm like, "Oh, I wonder what that is." And you could read the outside of the box. It said TRX. And my trainer is like, "Did you get something from TRX?" I was like, "Oh, yeah. Last time you were here. Yeah, remember?" Yeah, so that's was pretty funny. I was like, Amazon wins again. Ryan: Yep. Jon: All right. Dissatisfied customers. We have two left. So let's talk about the dissatisfied customers. Everybody has them, right? And they exist. And that's okay. These folks often can just be made satisfied by helping them understand that you're trying to fix their challenge and improve the experience for everyone else. Often, it's like if I come across a problem on our website, okay, let's just say, I just bought a bed. I'm not going to name names, but I bought a bed online and it has a whole bunch of technology in it. Love it. But, I'm a tall gentleman, right? And I bought a king, and it comes, and I was like, "This is a lot smaller than a king." It turns out, I measured it, it's two inches less than a king. And I was like, that's really weird. It's not a queen. So what's going on here? And so I contacted the brand and said, "Hey, this bed is two inches smaller than a king." And they said, "Oh, yeah. Because of some of the technology, blah, blah, blah, we have to make it a little bit smaller." And I was like, "That would have been nice to have known up on your site. You need to tell people that it says king, but it's actually two inches smaller. Because you're advertising all these NBA players use this bed and things like that, and I'm thinking great, right? But then it's two inches smaller." And the founder actually emailed me and said, "Hey, I got this feedback. I heard this. Well, we're going to add this to the website and make sure people know." And I was like, okay, well, I still have the bed, now I'm satisfied. And I was like, at least other people won't have that problem, right>. So I felt vindicated in some way. And so I think I made this point to say that complaining customers are an excellent source of feedback. And that's how you need to look at these, right? It's not about just having dissatisfied customers, it's about understanding what their problems are and fixing them. They tell you what the problems with your website and your consumer experience are, and so you could fix those problems. So really just want to be quick to listen to things like bad reviews, understand the complaint before responding, and understand that you can turn dissatisfied customers into loyal ones. It is possible. Ryan: I think too often brands hear or get bad feedback or just dissatisfied customers, and it's just for them, it's almost scary confronting it, or they're really excited and passionate about their brand, and somebody doesn't like it, they're like, "They just don't know what they're doing." I've done this myself with brands, and I'm like, "They just don't know what they're doing." And then I'm like, okay, it happened again. I'm like, okay, fine, we need to adjust the product. And my baby may be ugly, so let's fix it and not make it so ugly to some of these people. You can't be scared of dissatisfied customers, or you're going to lose your brand. At the end of the day, it's going to be just terrible. Jon: That's a good point. Yeah. All right. Last one, loyal customers. So, look, the 80/20 rule says that 20% of your customers will be responsible for 80% of your business. So the way I like to look at this and it's hilarious, I was just saying this to somebody else, but loyal customers are your bread and the rest are your butter, right? So really want to be thinking about what are you doing for these loyal people? So look at loyalty programs. I like to use airlines as examples because they are so good at gamifying, right? I'm platinum on Delta. I mean, I haven't flown them in nine months and I just got another letter from them yesterday with baggage tags for platinum level. And they said, "Hey, we're going to keep you a platinum level for another year. Don't worry about it. All the miles you've accumulated will count towards next year. So you don't have to start over. We understand." And they're gamifying it and in a way that's, okay, now, next year, when I start flying again or whenever that is, I'm going to go right back to Delta because I'm still platinum there. If they had removed, I'd just figure out, I'd be like, hey, well maybe Alaska or whoever else flies more on the West Coast where I'm all the time going, I would probably switch. But now I'll stick with Delta, right? They've done a great job with that through what's no doubt a challenging time for them. So really want to be thinking about a way to keep customers coming back and how you can take care of your most loyal customers. As I say, gamifying works very, very well. Every customer is special, but you really want to treat these folks with even more kid gloves, if you will. And then find ways to reward and recognize these people, you can give them special amenities. Baggage tags aren't really going to be much for me. I don't really care about that, but I'll take the free upgrades and the free alcohol and everything else that comes with being platinum with Delta. And then really just treat them like a VIP and they'll continue to be loyal. That's really my key point here. Ryan: And this is really probably the one area that I advocate for companies looking at competitors and taking note because a lot of times when you look at competitors and they have this widget on their side, or they do this thing in their ads, they probably have no idea what they're doing. At the end of the day, they're testing something. But when it comes to loyalty and what they're doing with their customers to try to keep them loyal, often, this is where a lot of research goes and especially in the airlines. If I was running an airline, I would go to all of the other airlines' loyalty program, find a list somehow and say, "Look, if you are platinum with Delta, I will automatically make you platinum or whatever my highest thing is with Alaska, give me a shot." And just automatically, because you're losing nothing. I'm not getting Jon's business right now. Jon: Right. It's funny you say that because Alaska does just that. They'll do a status match, where if you're platinum on Delta, they will status match you and give you that for a year on Alaska. Sadly, you can only do it once in your lifetime. And I did it right before the pandemic, so that's not a good situation for me. But yeah, at any rate [crosstalk] travel. Ryan: Join your competitor's loyalty program. I highly recommend everybody do that because it's going to give you some ideas of what they're seeing in the data or how they're gamifying it. Just jog your brainstorming ideas. Jon: Yeah. Status matches is a great idea, right? That's wonderful. Yeah. Where do you think you want to go from here? Ryan: Well, we're about out of time. So, I guess, I've got a lot to chew on too because I'm sure we're going to come out with some other ideas on this after digesting most of your data. But there's a lot of things you can do on a site to target a lot of people. And so what would your suggestion be to somebody that's just taken this fire hose to the face for their site and they're like, oh, my gosh, seven different groups of people? Where do you start and how do you start taking some actions so you're not a paralysis-analysis scenario? Jon: Yeah, great point. I would say here, start by asking questions about each of these groups and taking a good look at your site from their perspectives, right? So do each of these customer types get their needs met or are you just leaving some out in the cold? And how do you identify and engage the most loyal customers, or how do you flag and recognize new customers? And are you providing enough information to researchers? So really there's a key question in each of these if you go down and just ask yourself, am I meeting the needs of these people? And you'll come up with tons and tons of optimizations that you can do to your site on your own pretty easily. Ryan: Got it. And I would probably just broad stroke saying if you move up through the list in reverse order, you're taking care of some of the easiest or most important things. Like keeping your loyal customers loyal to you, you can't lose lifetime value customers, otherwise, your top-funnel marketing is just wasted. So keep those and move up. If you have to make a choice on where you're taking actions, I'm guessing that's where I would start. Jon: There you go. Awesome. Well, thank you, Ryan. I really enjoyed the conversation today. Ryan: Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for bringing your brain and letting me pick it and add some value to our listeners. I appreciate that. Jon: All right. Well, have a great afternoon. Ryan: You too. Thanks, Jon. Announcer: Thanks for listening to Drive and Convert with Jon MacDonald and Ryan Garrow. To keep up to date with new episodes, you can subscribe at driveandconvert.com.

Google recently dropped all commission fees on their "Buy on Google" platform. On the surface-level this seems like a very intriguing offer. But Ryan here is to explain why "Buy on Google" may not be the best thing for your brand. TRANSCRIPT: Jon: Ryan, a few days ago, I sent you an article I read about Google's Buy on Google program and how they were dropping all commission fees for their sellers as part of the program. Now, to me, this seemed like a pretty good deal. Who doesn't like freeways to sell products and utilize a huge platform with lots of awareness like Google search? At least that was my take, but when I asked you about it, you said, and I'll quote, hopefully this is okay, "That product was dead in the water before this change. Some merchants will of course test it, but it will compete for ad presence with their regular Google ads." Honestly, this was not what I was expecting to hear from you at all. I was really interested in connecting with you a bit more about this and just seeing your thoughts on it and getting some more information about the program out and seeing where and when it makes sense for all of our eCommerce listeners to take advantage of it. I guess just to jump right in, Ryan, on a high level, just so we're on the same page, what exactly is Buy on Google? Ryan: Buy on Google is the little colorful shopping cart icon that shows up in Google shopping. When you start filtering and sorting, you actually transact on Google and then the merchant fulfills it. It's basically a Google trying to be this marketplace saying, "Oh, we can trust Google because I'm buying it here." It's a shopping ad set that you're able to get when you push your inventory into Google and say, "Yes, I'm willing to sell this on Google." Previously, there were commissioned tiers to sell different products. It ranged somewhere from five to, I think, 12%. It was a 12% number that Google [inaudible 00:02:07] because it was less than that Amazon 15%. That came out, man, I want to say maybe three, four years ago, maybe in an alpha-beta four years ago. I think it did cause some Amazon changes within their system on what they were going to be charging to try to have more parody with the Buy on Google scenario. Yeah. It was basically give Google the commission that you would maybe be paying Amazon and we'll push your product out there. There's no advertising costs. Google's the one putting it out there and then you just get the sale and give commission to Google. Jon: They're trying to create a marketplace without really holding any inventory or doing any fulfillment. They literally just take the money, take their cut and send everything over to the retailer? Ryan: Yeah. From a high level, it sounds like a great idea like, "Okay. I have all of this work. I'm spending all this money in Google ads and shopping and I've got agency fees or employee costs or my time in it. Now, I can just go to Google and you're just going to take a commission and it's a fixed cost, so I don't have to worry about what my return on Google shopping is." That theory sounds phenomenal. There's not many business owners are going to be like, "Yeah. Here, take my products. Sell them for me. I now know that I'm only going to be paying 12% of my revenue for my advertising cost." There's no scenario in which that doesn't sound like a good idea. Jon: That definitely makes sense. How does Buy on Google differ from Google Shopping? This is a complete novice asking that question. Ryan: It's part of Google Shopping. You only see the Buy on Google when you're in the Google Shopping tab within Google space. It used to be a little more prevalent on the first page of Google, but I believe it's only showing now in the Google Shopping tab. It's one of the filters you can put on there. Jon: Okay. Then, really Google Shopping is getting your listing of products up there. Some of them will take you to the retailer. Some of them will just take your money on Google. Ryan: Yes. It's always interesting. Google's, as we know, a for profit company. They want to make money. When they came out with this program, it obviously sounded great to business owners, but it immediately put up some flags on our team internally to say, "Okay. Google needs to reward shareholders for their investment and needs to make money to afford employees," and all the things they do around the world that are very good and positive, including paying people. If Google is going to take 12% of the revenue for a sale and not charge for any clicks to the merchant that's selling that, in theory, Google's not going to be willing to lose money by showing those products at 12% when they know from a click cost, they're getting a 20% or a five X return for the merchant. Jon: I see. Yeah. Ryan: Google's got a lot of very smart people and they do say that they are out for the good, and they will do things to just benefit people. Period. There is an opportunity maybe that they're willing to take less money, but that's not always the case. You just have to start investigating. That's why I challenge every merchant to do with any product in Google is test and measure and see if it does actually make sense for your brand. Jon: Spoken after my own heart there, test and measure. Ryan: Yes. Jon: I've had an impact, Ryan. I appreciate it. Let me ask you this then. If they're not doing any commission anymore, then how are they going to make any money and how could any brand really think that Google is going to list this above their ads? Ryan: It's a great question. That's why it's surprising that Google made this move, especially when they just released earnings when we're doing this podcast yesterday where they had the first time that their revenue dropped in a quarter. I don't know how long, if ever, that Google being willing to give up money. When that happens, it's telling us internally logical position that, "Okay. Something wasn't going the direction that Google thought it was going to be going." Either we're in the process potentially of just sunsetting this or moving it to a place where it's not going to be necessarily a focus of Google because if there's no revenue coming in, how are you going to support it internally? You can't dedicate a bunch of employees necessarily longterm to a product that makes no money. It's either a stepping stone into something different, or they're taking steps to buy some market share to a degree and try to get people using it in broad adoption so that they can monetize it later. We don't necessarily know where they're going because they won't necessarily tell us this despite our levels of... I actually asked the question. I was interviewing, I think the global partner strategy person for Shopping. He's a big guy in the Shopping space. We were talking about the free and fast program that's recently come out and I brought it up and he's like, "I answered something, but not how you want it. Then, we can't have this in the interview because I'm not authorized to speak on it." Awesome. Thanks. It's a big unknown. I know that if Google is not making money on it generally, it's not going to be something that I, as a brand, am going to get really excited about and try to push all of my eggs into that basket for my personal brand. I might test it. Again, test and measure, see what it does, but my hopes are not high. Also, my hopes are not high, but just because of the nature of the Buy on Google and the data we've seen in it. A logical position... One of the companies I talk about often, I won't mention them by name, but they started working with us in May of 2020 after they had not been doing any paid search with an agency. They had been using Buy on Google with another agency that recommended that this was the greatest thing for them. This sells B2B kind of like distributor cleaning products, just all things businesses need. They have something in the neighborhood of hundreds of thousands of skews. Most of their sales come from Walmart or Amazon, at least, they did at the time. We looked at Buy on Google and they did about $34,000 a month on average. That was over the previous six months, and they paid Google and this agency somewhere around between four and $5,000 for that batch of sales, $34,000 worth. Jon: It seems like a good [inaudible 00:08:20], if you will? Ryan: Yeah. It wasn't terrible by any means. I said, "Okay. Well, that's not bad, but based on what we see, I believe you're limiting yourself on the potential that our website only did, I believe $16,000 in revenue in the month of April." Their web sales, just if it evaporated tomorrow, not a big deal. I said, "Okay. Look, I think you're being limited here. Give us three months to test this and see what we can do." This was in the very end of April. They said, "Okay. Fine. We're going to fire the agency we've been working with, but it's going to take two weeks. You're going to actually officially be able to kick off mid-May. But in the meantime that first two weeks of May, we're going to just push all our products into the merchant center and flip a very basic shopping campaign on based on just... We don't know anything. We're just going to have the products in there. Just see what happens." I said, "Okay. Great. Can't hurt anything while we're building it out." The data, when we're on a test and measure here, Jon, the data in the month of May, half of this was just that are basic campaign. Half was us getting ramped up. Their sales went from the site in April, $16,000 to $192,000. Jon: Now, that's a return on investment. Ryan: They only spent 2,500 bucks in Shopping in the month of May to generate an additional... What is that? $176,000? The crazy thing we saw and it surprises a lot of companies, but shopping has an effect on lots of areas of your site, not just what you're going to see in analytics on Google Shopping. That $2,500 generated Google Analytics last non-direct attribution, $115,000. The organic traffic on the site went from $10,000 in April to $45,000 in May. They weren't even doing any SEO. There was a halo effect on other things that Google Shopping does because you click to a site on Google Shopping, go back and do more research. Then, you're going to come back through other channels. Direct traffic was way up. Email was way up. Social was even up and they don't even do much on social. The Buy on Google doesn't allow for that because you're buying on Google. You're not even going to the website. You don't have the ability to buy other products. We know as well, based on our research and expertise within the Google Shopping space, over 50% of the time, people click on our product to go to a site and they're going to buy something else entirely. You get to the site and you start shopping. You see the data when somebody interacts with product suggestions on a site, time on site goes up dramatically. Conversion rate goes up on dramatically by clicking that suggested product, or you might also like type products. Everything gets better. They've committed to shopping the site. Maybe you can challenge me in that in some other arena, but all you want is a traffic from Google Shopping to get to the site because everything looks better from an analytics perspective. When you don't have that because of the Buy on Google not sending people to the site, you lose all of that. When I'm seeing Google give something for free, red flags and lights and flashes of all kinds of go off in my head saying, "Okay. Either something wasn't working for Google on this. They just need to get it out there more for adoption to try to take a last gasp for effort, or are they going to try to get companies to forget about sending traffic to the site to try to convince them that Buy on Google is the only thing to be doing?" It's just interesting to say the least. Also, if you have the product in Buy on Google and also in Google Shopping, you don't get to show in both ad sets, so it's not giving you extra inventory. It's a replacement, which also tells me if it's now free, how... Yeah. Google's not bad by any means. I think Google's great company. I'm very honored to be partnered with them at the level we are. I know that they're not going to give up all their revenue from Google Shopping. Jon: Right? Well, there's something else they're getting there in terms of... It's like the old adage about Facebook. If you're not paying for it, you're the product. Ryan: Yeah. Jon: There's something here that makes me think that they're interested in the consumer data. Ryan: Yeah. They want some data, and how much are they willing to pay for that? If they have 100% of all merchants adopt that immediately because it's free, they're not willing to take a $10 billion hit in Q3 probably to see some data. Jon: Not after Q2. Ryan: Because Google already has more data than they know what do it through a degree. Again, interesting. You need to watch it, test and measure it, but often it does not make a lot of sense to utilize the Buy on Google for most eCommerce companies. Jon: Is there anything else you feel like eCommerce brands should know about Buy on Google? Ryan: If you put this on your site and you're also running Google Shopping, we've got some merchants that spend north of $10 million a year on Google. When they came to us, they're shopping... Overall, they were using Buy on Google and Google Shopping and their shopping traffic was down 40% year over year including Buy on Google. Then, they couldn't figure it out. They came to us that find out about this. They had some prior relationships with us from other companies, the eComm team that had started working with them. They brought us on and we were able to uncover that when they had flipped on Buy on Google, that's the key thing that happened to drive the volume down. They thought they were going to be adding ad sets, adding all this additional stuff, and it was going to fix their marketing costs because the numbers looked great. When they flipped it on, everything went down and the agency they had been working with just said, "Well, it's just because the market's down or your prices are too high," or they had all these excuses that just didn't necessarily hold water when we started looking at the data. It's not easy to analyze Buy on Google and what the impact on your business, because the transaction is not happening on your website. You don't see that in Google Analytics. There's a lot of matchup data. There's a lot of filtering and analysis you have to do that is very complex to actually see the impact. When I say test and measure, you're going to actually have to do a lot of work on that measuring to figure out what the impact actually is. You have to look at skew data to see, "Okay. This product, I started showing in Buy on Google. What was the impact of overall sales in taking some of my offline data?" Because the Buy on Google's not going to show up in Analytics. What does that look like? When we put it here, we started seeing what's the impressions of Google Shopping that I lost? If I lost again, easy math, a thousand impressions and 10 sales on Google Shopping when I flipped on the Buy on Google, did I get more than 10 purchases of that specific product? Probably need more than that because the halo effect of Google Shopping of my organic traffic getting more searches and clicks and purchases because of my shopping investment, that goes away. You got to take in the fact, the halo effect. Go in paranoid like I do with most things. I'll go in paranoid to start and say, "Okay. If my business is not going to go to the direction I want to, where am I going to see it? What levers am I going to need to push and pull quickly and uncover some changes?" Jon: Is that paranoid why you live on a farm and all that acreage? Ryan: No. I also have four small kids and you need room to run. We're very blessed in COVID time to have all that room. Jon: You had said at some point, as we were having this conversation a few days ago, that larger merchants will usually lose volume when they have both ads and shopping actions. Is that summarizing what you were talking about a second ago? Ryan: Generally, yeah. It's simply because you can't show both ad sets. Playing out the conspiracy theorist in me saying, "Okay. Google's... Previously, they were going to get 12% from your Buy on Google, but they knew they were getting 20% with people clicking on ads to your site, they're probably going to take the 20% margin that they were getting on click and not show the Buy on Google." Buy on Google, you don't get any search queries, so we don't actually know what you were showing for. What we were seeing often was that it was cannibalizing brand terms and taking some of the easy stuff that you were probably getting at less than 12% cost already. Not that it's bad, but even smart shopping to a degree, take some of those easy layup searches and shows a pretty strong ROI. But a lot of that was brand that maybe you could have been getting a better return on ad spend with a more complex shopping structure. That's where you can't see the data from a search query perspective, so you have to see it from a transaction perspective. You're never going to get really apples to apples, but when you're comparing it volume loss of sales or volume increase based on skew, you'll want to hopefully have a lot of that data you can be pulling. If you have smart campaigns running currently on Shopping, you're probably not a large merchant. If you are a large merchant, we should chat. Smart campaigns are quite limiting to your scale, but if you have smart shopping and then you do Buy on Google as well, you have zero data in both of those. You're just going to be able to measure total site sales and maybe they do increase, but could they have gone higher if you went just to a manual shopping campaign structure and didn't do either smart shopping or Buy on Google. It's a difficult analysis, but it's something that all brands spending over 10,000 a month on Google should probably be doing. If you're doing spending money on Google Shopping and also doing Buy on Google, you need to be doing some deep analysis of what that looks like because I would venture, I guess when you flipped Buy on Google on, you probably lost some volume because of that transit. People not being able to shop the site and add different complimentary products. Jon: Right. Ryan: Buy on Google doesn't do that. They don't know what the complimentary products would be, but if you work with Jon who's going to help you figure out some of those things that are going to help your conversion rate to help your AOV, you can only do that on your site. Jon: Right. Yeah. That's been my rub with Google Shopping and I guess Buy on Google, more specifically is that you have very little control and you lose the contact information for the buyer. This leads me to my next question, which was I had mentioned there was an article in Forbes that kick started this whole conversation. That article says something along the lines of Google just updates eCommerce game to attract more sellers, but it's still not enough to compete with Amazon. What stuck out there was not that it's not enough to compete with Amazon, but this has been viewed as a play to compete with Amazon. Do you agree that this is a play to compete with Amazon? Ryan: Well, Google and Amazon has been competing for over a decade. I don't think it's a new thing for Google to try to test waters to create more of a marketplace. It just makes sense. With over 50% of all eComm transactions happening on Amazon, there is a risk to Google on ads that people could be just moving stores to Amazon and not paying for traffic on Google. That is a potential that Google is probably well aware of, probably not giving them any insight they don't already have. Jon: But I was wondering with that approach also, they're willing to offer this for free almost as like gut punch to Amazon in that, "Hey, we'll keep the customer data and the sale. We'll give that commission up to increase the volume and steal basically the revenue away from Amazon," almost as a way as a retaliation. I'm sure Google would never say this, but for Amazon launching on platform ads, which kind of hurt... I'm sure hurt some volume on Google. Ryan: I don't necessarily think that if you are selling online, you're not aware of Google or this was what was going to all of a sudden, get you to start working with Google to a degree. I think that there is some of that there like, "Hey, we want to try to get more merchants and more data," but I don't think that that was necessarily the play for Google that they're trying to use this to be the marketplace or take down Amazon at all. Then, probably trying to get new data to see, "Oh, if it is free, what is that doing to our margin? What is that doing to the volume of people buying on Google? Does that give us the ability to push into a marketplace?" The fact that they're integrating with PayPal, the fact they're integrating with Shopify Pay is pretty big. Letting people pay with those things, so it does seem that there is a marketplace potential here and it may be if we play this out, I'm guessing that Google is taking some margin from PayPal and Shopify Pay if people are using those for the transaction. Jon: I see. Ryan: Google's Pay could be as a merchant processor at the end of the day because they already have Google Pay. If they're making enough money on the processing fees, maybe they don't need to charge for a marketplace listing. Jon: That's a great way. I hadn't thought about that, but that's a great way for them to increase the volume there, which probably makes their cost cheaper to process those overall because of the larger volumes. Yeah. That's a great idea there in terms of how this makes sense for them. That leads me to my next thought, which is that Google has really tried several ways to take a piece of the eCommerce pie in the past few years. Right? We talked about Google Pay for instance, right? But I don't see a whole lot of eCommerce brands taking advantage of it or really making it a priority to support all these things. Do you have a feeling that Google will ever become a really large player in the actual eCommerce space besides driving traffic? Ryan: I would never bet against Google. Jon: That's fair. Ryan: They have a tremendous amount of intelligent people and more data in the eCommerce space than almost any other company [inaudible 00:22:14] in Amazon just control it. I think there's so much value to owning the customer experience for brands that as a brand owner myself, I do have an Amazon storefront. I do advertise on Google. I do have my own website. I look at Amazon as a retailer because it's their customer. It's not a me customer. For me, the more people that I can get my product into their hands through Amazon, the more likely they are to become a loyal advocate brand fan for my brand and maybe they'll buy from my site. Maybe they'll follow me on social and I can get new products into them, but I know it's Amazon's customer and Google can send traffic to my site. I have a lot of affinity for that because they're willing to share all of that customer data with me and not own it. It's difficult for me to be able to give up my customer and sacrifice that data and potential relationship and experience that I know I want my customer to have on my site to ever be like, "Okay. I'll never drive traffic to my site. I'll just let the transaction happen all over the place with everybody else's system." Jon: Government antitrust interviewing aside with all these big tech companies recently. I've always wondered why Google didn't just buy Shopify before it went public or by big commerce before it goes public. I could see a massive antitrust issue there perhaps where they own the entire ecosystem, but I also think that for them to really get a piece of this pie in the longterm in terms of on the transaction side, I almost see that that's going to have to be a requirement and we'll see what happens, but it would be interesting for them to take a play there. Ryan: Yeah. I think it's going to be easier for a Shopify to move into a marketplace than it is for Google to move into a web ecosystem that you can't get out of, but there's potential that Amazon gets broken up. As big as it is, maybe they have to uncouple their fulfillment and let everybody on the planet use Amazon fulfillment or Amazon becomes just the marketplace. I foresee that as potential. I know that Shopify is moving into logistics. They're going to start fulfilling orders for their merchants. There's a lot of frenemies in the digital marketing space. You and I partner with companies that we technically can compete with on certain areas as well. It's not uncommon and it's going to be to fascinating next few years to see how a lot of this is going to shake out. Jon: Yeah. Not really on topic, but I do see that if Shopify starts fulfilling, that's a huge win for Amazon because they can go back and say, "Well, we're not on it. There's no antitrust issues here," that Shopify fulfills and they do two days. Walmart now does one day. What's the problem? You could definitely see that argument. Ryan: Yeah. I think Walmart, we need... I didn't mention. You brought up Walmart. I think they have more distribution than even Amazon. Amazon has for their FDA, I think something in the neighborhood of 77 locations around the country. Walmart's got, I don't know how many thousands of stores, but a lot of them and Shopify has all this data around all of these merchants that a lot of them sell the same thing. If you've got the same skew at Shopify system, they know where you're located. They know where you're shipping from. In theory, Shopify could start selling that particular product and saying, "Hey, merchant X, Y, Z, you have it listed for 50. We know that we can sell it for 45. Do you want to take 45 and ship it to somebody?" Yeah. Most merchants are going to be like, "Yeah. I'll take that. You're going to share this customer data with me." Kind of like the dealer network. Do you remember Shopatron? I think it's now Kibo or something like that. The dealer or the manufacturer sells it and the dealer fulfills it. That's for sure within the realm of possibility within the next couple of years. Jon: Yeah. Wow. This has been fascinating. Thank you once again for educating me on this. You're always so knowledgeable on what's happening in the Google ecosystem, not only because you guys are such great partners with them at that scale, but also that you dive really deep into this personally as a store owner and somebody who helps clients. I really appreciate your time on this today and looking forward to the next conversation, Ryan. Ryan: Yeah. Me too. Thanks, Jon. I appreciate the time and the good questions.

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Today, Jon asks how to determine what your SEM budget should be...and Ryan explains why the answer may actually be to have no budget at all For all your digital marketing needs: https://www.logicalposition.com/ TRANSCRIPT: Jon: It's a common question that I hear quite a bit. "How much should I be budgeting for search engine marketing and how do I even forecast what I should be spending?" Well, securing the SEM budgets is always a challenge, right? So when you do spend on search engine marketing, you want to ensure that you reach your performance goals, but there are countless traps and ways to actually overspend or even underspend on your search engine marketing budget. And even if you follow all the best practices, you could still end up with some inefficiencies, so correctly addressing the ways to misspend requires paid search experts to consistently monitor campaign performance and budget spend. And also they need to have a pulse on what the company is trying to accomplish. So luckily for us, we have access to Ryan and he has access to 6,500 search engine marketing budgets to learn from. So today we're going to talk about ad word budgets and how to forecast what your brand should be spending and how to ensure you don't overspend or underspend. So, Ryan welcome. Ryan: Thanks, Jon. It's a big one. This topic is constantly top of mind for CFOs and there's constant tension, I think, between marketing teams and finance teams over budgets. And for me personally, it's one of my favorite topics and also my least favorite topics, just because of all the tension around it. It's my favorite because almost every company needs to be educated in how to forecast and plan budgets. But it's also my least favorite because it's always an uphill battle with changing the opinions of business owners, executives, finance teams, even marketing teams that don't understand forecasting and budgeting. It's a difficult conversation to have, but I'm happy we're going to be diving into this and hopefully doing some education. Hopefully making people think about what they're doing and how they can be maybe looking at SEM forecasting a little bit differently. Jon: Awesome. Well, I'm looking forward to being educated on this. This is a topic that we were chatting before we started recording, and you have some unique perspectives on this that I've never even given thought to. So. Ryan: We both have [inaudible 00:02:32] all kinds of things, Jon. It's great to be able to do this with you, but when this topic came up in our sequence of things we're going to be talking about it. I get all hot and bothered and excited and adrenaline starts flowing and I talk fast. So bear with me, but very similar to how you get when somebody's got a discount email pop up on a site is how I get when somebody tells me what their budget is X number of dollars a month. And don't overspend. It's just, I'm on a personal mission to eliminate SCM budgeting for 99.9% of the population. It just doesn't make sense for most companies. Jon: So explain that to me, I'm interested to learn more. Why is that? Well, Ryan: we get into the conversation because finance people want to see what numbers are going to be and understanding what's going to be coming in and out of accounts. And so it's for the last a hundred years of CFO's doing work to prepare bank accounts. Marketing has been a line item on the P and L that they've paid attention to and set goals around on how much are we going to spend? What are we going to do? How much are we putting into magazines and newspapers and TV ads and billboards? So it's understandable, but SEM is in a very unique position that it's not a normal P and L line item. Let me just use an example because here's what normally happens. Finance meeting, all right, the owner is, "What the heck," gets all red in the face. "What the heck is this $350,000 charge for Google last month? You know, we need to cut that down because our retailers are selling less of our product. We need to save money. And you know, if we go into a COVID time, we've got to control all of our money and keep it from going out so we're not spending $350,000 on Google anymore. Every month, a marketing team, we need to cut a hundred thousand dollars of that." Marketing team reaches out to the logical position says, "Hey, yeah, our wholesale channel is down because nobody's shopping in stores. So we need to cut a hundred thousand dollars of our marketing budget on Google." And that I get it, logically it passes the make sense test that you're going to take that hundred thousand dollars from Google and move it to the bottom line of profit. So you can cover the missing profit from some retailers that aren't selling product. Jon: Right. They're looking at it purely as an expense line item. Ryan: Exactly. Which again, conceptually makes sense. What isn't considered in that is that $350,000 drove 1.3 million of top line revenue, 10,000 new to brand customers, and also had an impact on two million organic direct traffic revenue. And so cutting that hundred thousand dollars, most likely won't even save that company money. It'll probably cost them revenue and profit because it's not going to be driving as much top line revenue. And many times in the past, if you cut a hundred thousand dollars of billboards, you may not actually feel an impact in the business at all over the next month, depending on what you're selling, depending on what the billboard's mentioning, but it simply does move that hundred thousand dollars to the bottom line. And that again, logically makes sense. But with SEM, it doesn't operate like a historical marketing channel. It is driving so many other things that impact the business. And so because of that, it is somewhat complicated to explain that to a business owner over a phone call or, "Hey, we've got five minutes with the exec team. Let's tell them why we need to be spending on SEM." For most businesses, I'll add, will start with the crazy notion that you should not have a budget for paid search. It should be, "Nope. You are going to set your goals and going to spend. And if you can spend more, you are going to take it if you're hitting your goals." Jon: Okay. So it's not an expense line item. It's an investment. Ryan: Yeah. Jon: Okay. Ryan: If you're printing money with an investment, is there any reason you wouldn't continue printing money? And the general answer is, "Well, no, if I put a dollar in and I get $10 back, I'm going to go find a bunch more dollars. There's no limit to the number of dollars I can be spending. Because I could take that $10 that I just printed and put it back in and it prints a hundred and I take it out and it prints a thousand." The asterisk to this, which we will touch on probably a little later is it does make sense to forecast sales from SEM, potentially based on historical data for inventory or production. And that's where it does get kind of like a sliding scale on what we can spend based on the inventory we have. And I've got a couple of examples on that. Jon: So if you're not budgeting the spend, should you be looking at the back end is what you're saying. You should be budgeting the return on that adspend and what that's going to be in revenue. So you're saying, "I want to make a million dollars. What does the adspend take to hit a million dollars?" Ryan: Maybe? But the reality is, is I challenge companies to, yes, you're going to look at this, after the fact on a PNL, as a line item, but in the month itself, the spend on SEM actually doesn't have an impact on cash. Therefore it's not necessarily a normal P and L line item. So easy math example, you're going to spend a hundred dollars on paid search on Monday. Great. You set up your Google Ads account. You've got your credit card on there. You spend a hundred dollars on your credit card on Google. It drives $500 of revenue. Okay? That hundred dollars that you spent on Google Ads doesn't even hit your card until you spend 500. So it's still just in Google system. You spent in essence, at that point, fake money, it didn't hit anything. It's just a Google system, but that $500 that you processed on your website is real money. And that's going to hit your account as soon as your merchant processor will send it to you. So let's just say easy math. It's going to hit you on Wednesday 48 hours later. So every day you're going to spend a hundred dollars to get 500, your credit card's not going to get built from Google until end of day Friday, when you hit the $500 billing threshold from Google. And by that time you've already collected $500 on Wednesday, $500 on Thursday, $500 on Friday, that's hit your bank account minus the processing fee. But we will ignore that for this example, you've got $1,500 in your bank account. Your credit card has only been hit for $500. If you are like me and you're [inaudible 00:08:29] this, I pay my credit card once a month. And I pay off the entire balance on ever pay interest. And that credit card bill is probably not due until the 14th of the next month. Let's say this was the first of the month. So you've got 45 day float on that hundred dollars you spent on Monday. And by that time you've already collected money. And if you're not losing money, which ideally you're not, but you're actually making money, then it's a money printing machine that actually doesn't cost you any money. You have, in theory, an unlimited amount of money, as long as you're at least breaking even just from a cash perspective, right? And your credit card limit, obviously. Jon: So it's no longer about SEM budget forecasting. It's around the laws of SEM cash flow. Ryan: Not every business has unlimited inventory. So you might be able to spend a hundred thousand dollars tomorrow to generate a hundred thousand and $1 of profit in your business. But if you don't have the inventory to back that up, then you do have problems. And we have some clients right now that are struggling to get inventory from China for their production. I think one company has a hundred containers en route from China they're just waiting on to be able to sell and they can flip a switch, and that inventory is almost going to be gone immediately. It's crazy, the demand for their products. So from that perspective saying, "All right, we have this much inventory coming. We want to sell it." And maybe that becomes the conversation around, okay. Based on the historical data of what we've been able to sell, what we've been able to spend, what's the return on adspend goal that we need to be at to sell that much inventory? So again, this is getting somewhat complicated math, but I'll try to boil it down simple. Let's say in my brands, for example, I will spend down to break even to acquire a new customer at any point in time, because I'm competitive. I would love to put my competitors out of business because I think my product is better. My service is better, but break even is fine for me because it doesn't hit the cash. I'm getting new customers. And I have a lifetime value. If, for example, I all of a sudden had a... And this happened, I think in April we had a production hiccup. And so I knew that I was going to run out of inventory if I kept spending down to break even on like, let's make it up the 20th of April. So I said, "Okay, all right, marketing, we're actually going to raise our return on adspend goal because I need to throttle down sales because I can't run out of inventory on the 20th. I have to be able to get to the 30th before I can get my inventory back in." And so that's the strategy I use. I didn't care what we spent, as long as it wasn't losing money. I still, I said, "All right, instead of breaking even, and we're going to get a 2.5 X because based on the historical data, we think that's where my sales special is going to be." So that took some guessing and manipulation on daily sales totals. And we had to watch it pretty carefully. But once we hit inventory levels again, I was right back to pushing aggressively to sell an inventory. Jon: Yeah, that definitely makes sense. So there's other factors you need to be thinking about here and inventory sounds like is a big one for sure. Then that could be the more delimiter than what you should be spending or what the budget would be for SEM. Jon: Let me ask you this as a little divergence, but how do you get leadership on board with this type of mindset? Right? Because if you go in most financial folks would probably understand that return on investment spend, but maybe if leadership and finance is still looking at all of this as a budget line item, that's only on the expense column. How do you recommend people approach this conversation? Obviously there's simple math, just like writing it out, might help, but have you have found any tips and tricks for how to approach leadership about something like this? Ryan: It's difficult again, going into this conversation about money is always... I don't think there's any conversation around money that becomes easy, except, "Hey, I want to give you a million dollars." That's pretty easy. I'd be like, "Yeah. Okay, great. I'm in." The longer an organization has been looking at marketing on Google or Microsoft Ads as a line item that they forecast and budget annually, the more difficult it's going to be to change the minds of the team that's been doing that. We've worked in some billion dollar organizations that said, "All right, last year we did X number of dollars on our website and we expect a 10% growth. Therefore we're going to take our marketing budget for paid search, which was 10% of that total. And then we're going to add 10% to it again. So there's your budget. Go do it. Divide it up by the quarter that you think the revenue is going to come in and four quarters higher, therefore it gets 42% of the budget." And then they work down into the week and have even daily budgets. Those organizations are going to be much more difficult because they're bigger, their CFO, they were publicly traded. So they had to report numbers to shareholders and forecast what their expenses were going to be. And because SEM is an expense you report to shareholders, if that expense was a hundred percent higher than you told them it was going to be last month, they may not be happy because they're not understanding what's that top line number that it was driving. So you have to have it correlate really, really well saying, "Hey, we spent a hundred percent more, but we actually drove over a hundred [inaudible 00:13:53] more revenue." It's going to make them excited. But the group that's doing the conference call with the shareholders may not understand that and be able to break it out in that much detail, especially if it's a multibillion dollar organization and the website is a small piece of that overall business, which it was at the point we were working with them. It's challenging. So my advice is to try to chip away at certain aspects of it over time, being able to show, "Hey, when we spent more at this level, we got more, it was a direct correlation." And I like to use impression share showing potential like, "Hey, there's a potential there in impression share. We used absolute impression share at the top, which means you're in position one on Google and top impression show, which means you're just above the search results," to kind of give an indicator if there's a room to push. And then I also like to talk about what we refer to an internally as the Halo Effect. I don't think that's an official term, but if it does become an official term, you heard it here first. Paid search, specifically shopping in eCommerce has a large impact on organic traffic and direct traffic. And in fact, if you look in Analytics and you get lost in Attribution, sometimes it's hell, sometimes it's heaven, but you can get lost all over an Attribution. You will find out that the more you spend on Google Shopping, the more your organic traffic increases, the more organic sales you get. And you can look at assisted conversions to see that if you label your campaigns appropriately, you can see generally on non TM shopping campaigns, which is non trademark people, just looking for your product and service, and don't know you as a brand yet for that product or service, you will see assisted conversions generally higher than attributed last click conversions in Google Analytics. And so it's having a disproportionate influence on driving sales through other channels, and it is driving sales to its accredited channel. And so showing them that, showing them, "Hey, this says have a large impact. If you just cut it, you're not just cutting the results that you're seeing from the SEM budget. You're cutting results you're seeing in other channels as well." And so in some companies, this is unfortunate, but if you cut Google Shopping, your SEO team, all of a sudden is going to look worse without them doing anything wrong. They just happen to have the organic traffic drop because of Google Shopping not spending as much money. So it's a very complicated web picture as we continue to shop more and more online, it's only going to get more complicated and intertwined, but at least helping them understand some of that first, even before you get to the, "What are we going to spend," budget. Jon: Yeah. It's almost like we, as an industry, need a one sheet for executives on how to explain this simply for them, because I think there's a so much education that goes into this. And I think half the job of marketing ends up being internal education, which is really just reduces effectiveness. I mean, we fight that all the time with conversion optimization ecomm and marketing teams, they're all a hundred percent on board and understand the return on the spend on optimization. But then you look at a high level executive and they say something like, "Well, but you know, we just had our best month ever. Why would we need to optimize?" Ryan: No, exactly. We're constantly in education mode in what we do. And I actually had this conversation with Google last week because they're really internally pushing for more automation within Google to control a lot of the inner workings of Google, which is not bad for many companies, but they want to move agencies into more of an advisor role and helping companies grow by educating them on digital marketing, which I think is a great goal. I said that, "Well, the problem you're going to experience with that though, is you've got a bunch of, let's just say 24 to 30 year olds in digital marketing that have never owned a business that are trying to educate business owners on growth strategies for their brand. And they probably just don't have the experience to be educating at a high level why these companies should be investing in marketing." And it's scale yet, I just don't think we have the expertise as an industry to be advising people that have grown hundred million dollar brands on how they should continue growing. Jon: And the barrier to entry with marketing roles is typically pretty low, right? Ryan: Yup. Jon: It's something where there is a lot of people in the industry, but there's few experts. And you start doing something like that with all of the junior folks who are just getting into it, and you're going to end up with some big problems. So let me ask you this, Ryan. What are some ad word budget management solutions that kind of help you maybe just prevent yourself from even under spending? Because I think we've determined today, most companies under spend, right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: Because they're not focusing on the right metrics around this, but I know you're talking about a lot of these tool sets that Google's coming out with. I know we've talked about them on this podcast before how I've even been personally kind of put through the ringer by using automation tools through Google. So what are your thoughts just on the AdWords budget management solutions that are out there? Ryan: Generally, I don't like them, but when I'm talking to business owners about controlling budgets, the first thing I tell them is, "Look, you're going to have flexibility, regardless." If you're rigid on your goals, you're either leaving money on the table or you're wasting money. You can't dictate search volume across the entire United States, for example, for your product or service, but what you can do is decide, "Okay, here's what my goals are. Let's make sure that we're at least meeting those. And if we have a little bit more we spent, that's probably okay, as long as we get the goals, if we under spend it's okay, because the search demand wasn't there." Google at its core is a demand capture. People are searching for a product. You put it in front of them because you have that product. There are pieces of Google that can be demand creation, but by and large, it is demand capture. And so build flexibility into your model. But then this is another thing I have to educate a lot of businesses on as well. A big education piece is aligning your marketing goals with your business goals. So often those are not going in the same direction. So you have a marketing team. That's been given a goal and they're rowing in direction to achieve that goal because they have incentives and bonuses in place to hit those goals. And then you have an executive or a business owner that's driving or paddling the boat in a different direction because of their goals. And if they're not aligned, you have a lot of tension and issues because there's going to be frustration from the executive team. "Why isn't marketing giving me the results I want? We set this wonderful goal and they achieved it, but it didn't have the impact I wanted it to." So you start with, what's your business goal? Do you want to grow? Even beyond that, do you have an exit strategy as an owner? Do you have shareholders? You have to hit certain metrics as a business to be successful and make them happy? And then after you've set that you say, "Okay, how can my marketing team utilize the SEM channel to help hit that goal?" And let's set incentives around that rather than what a lot of companies do is well, "We had an agency five years ago tell us that we should be getting it for X or you know, 10 years ago, we were highly profitable on Google Ads. I want to be highly profitable still." And don't pay attention to the changes or evolution of digital marketing over the last decade that has made your 10 X profit goal spending 50 grand a month, not possible at this point, based on what your site's converting at or all these other things you could be doing or should be doing. So it's goal alignment build in flexibility and then monitor it. It's not something you just set it, forget it, let the marketing team just do it. Like I'm in marketing, I have brands, I still daily track everything. It's all about the data. Like I want to know what's happening in my business regularly. I don't let it go on autopilot. Sometimes I want to, but I don't. And just in be involved as a business owner, you have to have an understanding of what it's trying to do. Jon: This is great because I think if I could summarize a little bit of my learnings from the conversation today, it's you shouldn't have a budget, you should have a goal, right? So look at the other end of the spend, not the front end, but the back end. Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: And then you really need to work on educating your team internally and the executives, if it's not your money that you're spending, because that way, you're making sure that they understand the return on the investment there. And then from there it's really an inventory challenge perhaps on how much you could spend. And you could really look at this as a cashflow machine. And that's how this should be looked at, perhaps is what's that cashflow equation? How are you getting that money before it's even truly spent? And how can you reinvest that up until you have no inventory left or you have an inventory problem. And then from there, there's no real way to kind of put something on autopilot here. They just don't work that well. You don't want to look at your marketing channels as equal. You really want to play at these different points of the acquisition funnel as you've mentioned. Did I miss anything on that? Ryan: Well, there's a couple of points. I think people should just pay attention to as well. There are circumstances where some companies intentionally lose money on the initial order from a customer. They have high lifetime value, they have a competitive space where it's necessary to even compete. They're going to lose money on the first order, beauty, skincare, that is often the case. Jon: That's still the cashflow formula. You're just stretching it out, right? Ryan: You can't spend unlimited money because it does actually cost you money to get that customer. And so you have to look at, from a finance perspective, how much money do I have in the bank? I can't spend endlessly if I'm losing money on the first order, if I'm breaking even or profitability, you can usually spend endlessly, but then it's also saying, "Okay, what's my diminishing return, and is there a better place for that investment?" Yeah. Diminishing returns is I'm losing money to spend. So maybe I stopped spending here on Google because I know that I can get this money losing return on Facebook or Instagram which is actually better. And so that's where forecasting probably has a bigger impact. And we've had those conversations with businesses about lifetime value. And there's some complex math formulas around it, but it can be done. But then when you're looking at moving budgets, there are some automated tools that brands love looking at. I mean, brands really do love tools that have great graphics and sliding things you can move around and makes it look like you're just doing amazing. And there's one that I really don't like. And it says, "We're looking at your Facebook spend and your Google and Microsoft spend. And if Facebook is at a five X and Google is at a three X, Oh, we're just going to move money from Google over to Facebook and keep spending until they're kind of at equilibrium," because that totally makes sense if you're just looking at math and numbers, but what most brands miss is that those budgets are accomplishing very different things. And so you have to look at them differently and not necessarily move budget from one to the other, just because a return on adspend goal makes sense like, "Oh, I'm printing all this money on Facebook and I may be breaking even on Google." It should be looked at differently. So generally avoid tools that just automatically move budget to the best performing things. Because for most businesses that doesn't make sense. Jon: I think that's a great point to end on today. And I think we've packed so much into 30 minutes here. I really appreciate you as always Ryan educating me on and helping me change my point of view on this, as I definitely came in thinking of SEM as an expense line item and you need to budget and have a forecast around that. And you've definitely shifted my thinking completely around, which is awesome. Ryan: One less business owner to educate. I love it. Jon: Boom. All right. Well hopefully a few other got educated today by listening to this and we'll continue to spread the word. So thank you Ryan. Ryan: Thanks Jon.

In every business there are tools specific to that industry or type of business that will help them grow. Ecommerce is no different. CRO is one of the most important tools to grow an Ecommerce business. Today, Jon dives into the role CRO plays in Ecommerce businesses. For help with your CRO: https://thegood.com/ TRANSCRIPT: Ryan: Oh Jon, most people start businesses because they've got skills, knowledge, and the desire to control their work and what they're actually doing on a day to day basis. I would also guess most business owners want to grow and in every business there are tools specific to that industry or type of business that help them grow. E-commerce, as we know, is no different. You and I both know CRO is one of the most important tools to grow an e-commerce business and it's never a bad time to grow. Ryan: Today I'm really excited to dive into the role CRO plays in e-commerce businesses. You, Jon McDonald, knowing more about CRO than anyone I know, can you start us off today by giving us your thoughts on CRO and the growth process of an e-comm business, at a high 30,000 foot level? Jon: Yeah, sure. Well I think the best way to think about this Ryan is that there's only a small number of ways to grow your company just at a high level before even thinking about conversion rate optimization. You can get more new customers, you can get your current customers, or even those new ones, to spend more with you, and you can get your average customer lifetime value up by getting those customers that have purchased to come back and purchase again. Those are really the only three mechanisms you have for earning more revenue out of your business. Jon: So, of course, traffic generation can hit that first one really well. We might argue, and maybe you could fill in on this a little bit Ryan, but traffic generation, when done well in digital marketing, can help you also increase average order value. Then remarketing, you can resell to the people who have already purchased perhaps and you can run campaigns around that. Jon: But I think if you're really looking to impact the first two of those in a major way, conversion rate optimization is really going to be how you're going to get a higher return on that ad spend and how you're generally just going to convert more of your visitors into buyers. So if you're thinking about growth the biggest lever with the highest return on investment, and of course, I'm biased, but I think that the highest return on investment is going to be conversion optimization because with a small investment in making it easier for people to purchase on your site you're going to get a high value back that's going to be sustainable over time. Ryan: Well yeah and I think even on a previous podcast we talked about CRO after the sale even and increasing some of that lifetime value in areas I hadn't even considered actually being CRO. Like even some of the things in the shopping cart post purchase which would increase lifetime value had never even occurred to me. Ryan: I think it does play in all three, but I think for most people as they're thinking through their entire e-comm business they're going to probably see CRO in those first two buckets of growth. As you're looking at e-comm businesses and you analyze tons of businesses, is there a place in the growth curve of an e-comm business where you really see CRO as being the most impactful? I'm thinking in my head of a bell curve and growth or maybe you're growing up to a plateau like where would you in a perfect world insert CRO? Jon: Well I think that you need to have enough traffic to effectively do certain types of CRO. Let's break this down a little bit. Let's look at this bell curve in three chunks. The first chunk would be the folks who are just getting started, maybe we'll just say less than a million dollars in revenue, which is a pretty big gap there. But that first million what you really need to be focused on is making sure people know that you exist. Jon: They need to have an easy to use website but normally you're going after those early adopters who are willing to put up with a little more complications on your site than the average customer. So it's really important for that first third of that curve that you are mainly focusing on driving traffic that is going to hit a very specific segmented marketplace that is going to be your key customers that are going to stick with you no matter. Jon: You probably aren't going to be converting much on branded terms because people don't know who you are, so when people do find your site, at that point, you want to make it as easy for them to purchase but you're not going to be able to do things like AB or multivariate testing because AB testing and multivariate testing, et cetera, require enough traffic for you to get results in a meaningful timeframe. Jon: So in that first third what I usually would want people to do is when I'm looking at these companies I want to see them collecting data. What do I mean by that? Well are they actually looking at great analytics data? Have they actually ever dived in there and customized it a little bit or is it just they just put the snippet from GA on their site and that's all they have. Jon: Couple other things to be thinking about there, like you could easily pretty cheaply get things like heat maps and movement maps. You can do that type of stuff to start understanding how people engage with your website and just make changes based on data. You don't have to test it, right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: Just make the changes. The best way to test there is just to do week over week or month over month. Now if you're making changes every day that's going to be hard to really know what worked well, but I don't want that to stop brands. They should still be tweaking their site as much as possible and then sticking to perhaps even larger changes in that first third. Ryan: In that space, in that first third, a lot of times the business owners generally don't know best practices on website. They know their industry, they know their products well. But how much would you as that business owner trust your gut looking at small pieces of data like that on a daily, weekly basis where you can't actually get an AB test and have full confidence that this is what is better. You just say hey, go with your gut on that because it's probably better than not going with your gut? Jon: Well I think that it goes back to the phrase I say quite often which is it's really hard to read the label from inside the jar. I think that with that in mind that it's still as an owner of a site and a daily operator you're still too close to it and you really still need that consumer feedback. Collecting that data and paying attention to it, even if it's only 100 visitors a day or a week, that's still data that you should be looking at. Where are people leaving, what pages are they getting stuck on perhaps, where are they dropping off in the funnel, that's all good information to know where are the holes in your bucket because they're flowing right through that bucket instead of collecting them as revenue. You really need to know where those holes are and that's really what I'm getting at here. Jon: The other thing you can be in this first third of that curve, go talk to consumers. You should email every single person who buys personally. There's not a volume at that stage under a million where you can't email every single person individually and just ask them, "Hey, this is me, this is actually me," just start the email that way. "I'm sending you a personal email. I want to know why you purchased and what your experience was." That's it. Jon: I have never gotten an email like that and I purchase online almost exclusively now, that's my job. I have never gotten a personal email from a brand. It's always an automated give me a thumbs up or thumbs down, or what's my net promoter score and they're doing it in a really horrible way. I don't want to rate you on a scale of 1 to 10, that's not what this is about. I'm not going to waste my effort there. If you sent me a person email and said, "Jon, thank you so much for buying from me, we're just starting out, as you likely know. If you didn't know, well hey, welcome to the small club. Excited you're here. Jon: I want to know about your experience because we want to continue to improve our site. Can we chat for 10 minutes at some point or can you just spend 10 minutes right now just write down your thoughts? Nothing is going to be better than that." There's a lot you can do in that first third that people just aren't doing and that's what I'm looking at these businesses if I'm going to give them a passing grade they're doing at least some of these items and most aren't. Ryan: No, I think that's important as somebody that's launched my own brands. You get, as a business owner, so many different directions that many times it's difficult to I think step back and think about okay, if I am selling online what's the most important thing to me right now. If I'm acquiring traffic I need to make sure it's doing the best. I don't like wasting money. Ryan: So I think most business owners probably need to do a little more of what I would consider some of that grunt work on their own where maybe it's not going to be your most favorite thing to do, but it's highly important if you really want this brand to work. Jon: Right. I think to get to that next level, and I would say that middle of that curve is generally a million to 25 million, big gap. But you can get easily get over a million by just doing what I mentioned. If you put in all that grunt work you will get over a million dollars a year in revenue of your site. Then once you get over that point you will likely start having enough traffic, and by enough traffic, let's just say 40 or so 1000 visitors per month. At that point, if you have 40 or so 1000 individuals hitting your website, and I should say users instead of visitors, there's a difference there in analytics. But when you have that 40,000 users on your site you can now start running AB testing on your site and actually get things to hit statistical significance, which is the mathematical formula that's going to tell you that this is proven with math that it's going to improve the metric you went after. Jon: I think that's what's really important here is that once you hit that middle part of the curve that you are really starting to invest in data-driven decision making that is run by testing ... and usually in this part when I'm looking at these businesses, these are the ones who have some money to start growing and reinvesting on a regular basis. It's usually no longer just the owner spending their own money to grow the company because when they got over that million mark now they have some employees, they start having enough margin, ideally, that they can reinvest. Maybe the owner is still involved, but they also might have hired a digital marketing manager or an e-comm manager. Jon: So at that point, that's when you really start to see some rapid growth and that's why that band is typically a million to 25 million because you can really grow pretty rapidly in there if you're AB testing in each of these 3 points we talked about earlier, which is the first time visitors, getting people to buy more, and then also a repeat customer. You can start optimizing all three of those because you have enough traffic going far down the funnel where you can even run tests in the checkout, which typically is going to be one of the pages that has the least amount of visitors to it because you're only in checkout if you're actually going to buy something. That gives you a wide range. Jon: Now if you're over 25 million, what I really start to look for there on that growth curve at that point is these people have in-house teams, generally, focused on optimization. They've proven out the value in that middle tier and now they've moved up to the top tier and they can start having a whole team centered around this, and if they don't, they realize that they're missing out. They know that they're missing out but there's something else holding them back from doing that. Jon: Generally, that's when they also either start to outsource that or they're looking to augment their team and come up with some additional new, fresh ideas because at that size they start to realize that they're too close to their site and they need some outside ideas. It could be as simple as they're just looking for test ideas or it could be as simple as they want to accelerate their testing and do more of it, or they want to train up their team and refresh the skillset there. Ryan: Got it. So grunt work "CRO" what we termed an earlier episode CRI where you're just making improvements to the site that are removing some friction even if there's not tests to back it up, you're just seeing some of the friction. Really it's 40,000 visitors, million dollars plus in revenue, really want to take the next step and grow. If you don't want to grow you're probably not even listening to this podcast. Jon: Right. Ryan: So you're probably not appropriate for this anyway. But here's something I don't think I've ever asked you about this, and I don't know why. Obviously when you're doing CRO on a site it's impacting everything all the site, all visitors are going to convert better once CRO process is going. What traffic channels generally see the biggest uptick in conversion rates once you've started the process and you're really seeing some good improvements going on? Is there a certain part of the site or type of traffic that you're seeing as just takes off really, really well? Jon: Well I think that it can affect the entire lifecycle of the customer, as we talked about earlier, and thus all the different types of channels once they get to your site. Now in terms of traffic generation channels, I think that generally what we see return on ad spend does improve because you're getting more people to convert. Now at The Good, we focus exclusively on onsite test, so we don't do any testing offsite, so we're not testing ads or any of that type of stuff. Jon: That's where Logical Position in your team comes in. But what we do see here is the match between having a successful ad campaign direct that visitor to an optimized portion of the site, that is like adding fuel to a fire. At that point they both become way more effective. So there's definitely synergies there. Jon: Now in terms of overall channels, generally, we see organic go really, really high. This is because people are already looking for you. They already know you exist. At that point, they've made their mind up that they likely want to purchase, maybe they heard about you through a friend, or it's all those channels that are going to have the people who are going to clearly fit your ideal customer profile. Jon: Now you're going to see those organic numbers really start to increase and improve because you've made the site easier to use. You've reduced all of the barriers that person who already really wants to buy that they're not going to get as frustrated. They're not going to have a reason to desert like they had prior to optimization. Jon: So that's one of the benefits because at that point you can get your cheapest traffic to be optimized and convert higher, then that's where you're going to see a massive return on your investment. But that's not to discount that you would see higher conversions from people who come by clicking on an ad and I think that's really going to be valuable in terms of return on investment. So there's a couple ways to look at that. Ryan: For a business's initial foray into CRO do you recommend their focus be on increasing the number of conversions, increasing the average order value, something else, or all of the above at the same time? Is there an order that I should be looking at those as a business owner? Jon: Yeah. I think that unfortunately The Good is in an industry called conversion rate optimization, so a lot of people come in with the expectation that conversion rate's the only metric that matters. Now I totally understand that 100% matters and if you can move that lever then you're going to see a massive return on your investment in it. But there are a ton of metrics that you do want to be looking at that are I would argue as valuable, if not more valuable and more sustainable. So if I get your conversion rate to double or I get your average order value to double we're going to have this very, very similar outcome, mathematically. People spend twice as much or let's just break it down, I get 100 people to spend $2 or I get a 100 new people to spend $1, we're going to make the same amount of revenue, right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: So I think you want to look at these metrics more holistically and then develop a plan to one, analyze where your weakness is. Maybe you already have a really strong steady conversion rate and it's more about getting your average order value up, or maybe you notice that your cart abandonment rate is really, really high, or maybe there's not enough people even adding something to a cart, so there's all these clues, there's all these clues around why people aren't buying. Jon: If you just focus on conversion rate you're going to be, as a consumer, an untrained eye or maybe just somebody who's in that first band of up to a million dollars. They're going to go online and read a bunch of articles about improving conversion rates, and the reality is, a lot of them are just going to start running discounts, do pop-ups. Do all these that will show you an immediate boost of numbers but it's not sustainable in any way. And you start having long-term systemic issues where you're stuck on the discount train and once that discount train leaves the station your consumers are always going to be expecting discounts at every single purchase and every single stop, and that's really hard to get off the tracks once that happens. Ryan: And that's not a fun business. Jon: Right. Nobody wants to be in the business of, how do I put this, of giving everybody free stuff. It's basically what it is if you over discount. So I think you really want to be thinking about what metrics are most important to moving the needle for your business. The only way to do that is to go back to what I said earlier, which is early on in your business you need to set up the right tracking. You need to get used to looking at the numbers and you need to start making data-backed decisions. If that guides you into understanding where your metrics could be improved then that should be where you're going to start working on your optimization moving forward. Ryan: Oh man, and I will double down on that statement. I have talked to so many businesses in the startup process or they've been in it a couple years even and they're with a platform like a Shopify or a Bitcommerce and they don't have Google Analytics. How are you looking at your business, oh I just look at the back end of Shopify or Bitcommerce. It's like wow, there is so much more available in a more robust analytics platform than just your shopping cart or the web platform that you utilize that I think both can be important for various things, matching each other up, verifying certain things are working, but for sure make sure your analytics is working and tracking reasonably close. Because even with the Shopifys and the Bitcommerces of the world that have 1000s, millions of users if you're Shopify, the implementations of analytics do not work the same on each one of those. They don't line up correctly all the time, so you got to make it at least line up as close as possible. Jon: Yeah and there's one thing that one of your team members at Logical Position, Brian Aldrich, he really hammered into my head over the years. I've seen him speak at the same events all the time, and stuff. He always says, "You need a single source of truth." Unfortunately, if you the e-commerce platform be your single source of truth you're missing out on a full picture. Jon: So just getting started early on using Google Analytics, or some analytics package, I mean I don't know why you wouldn't use Google Analytics for this, but make that your single source of truth because no two analytics packages are going to line up exactly, and I think that's the point you're making. Jon: But if you just look at one of them like Shopify's built-in analytics that's great for at a glance how did I do day over day, et cetera, but the reality is, it's not going to help you optimize your site so you really need to have that real truth, source of truth, be something that is a full picture of the consumer experience. Ryan: Funny enough, analytics is top of my mind because I had a contact from another one of our partners. He's going off to look at other businesses to get involved with and one of them was an analytics company, so he had me sit down and talk with him to see what it was about and if it had some validity. They started their pitch at me was, "Well you already know analytics is bad, right? Google Analytics?" I was like, "Well, no." Ryan: Their whole thing was like oh yeah, Google's just bad. Google Analytics is bad because it gives itself too much credit and doesn't actually let you see the full attribution of everything. I'm like, well, I mean I don't believe that. But you see it's probably more in depth analytics products across the board. Does one in particular stand out as a business owner when you're looking at things? Is Google Analytics okay but actually bad or is it Adobe is way, way better, or something most companies haven't heard of that they should be looking at in addition to analytics, or instead of? Jon: Well I think you make a good point here and that's that every analytics package is going to be a little different. The thing is it's all in how you use it and the consistency in which you use it, it doesn't matter which platform you use. Also, a startup doing less than 10 million, they have no business looking at Adobe. They can't afford it, just be upfront about that. So it's also what is your return on your investment going to be? Jon: If you are spending a ton of money to get some data but you're not utilizing that data to get a return on that spend then don't do it, what's the point? This is where Google Analytics really serves in a great need is yeah, look, you're giving data to Google, if you're not paying for it you are the product. So the reality is it's a trade off. A lot of people think there's privacy issues in giving that data to Google, and whatever. Jon: Reality is that if you're a site doing under a million dollars a year, or even way more than that probably, Google doesn't care about your data, quite honestly. They've got bigger fish they're working with. The reality here is that out of the box Google Analytics is a great tool to get started with. Then if you don't ever touch it and you don't customize it, yeah, there's going to be better tool sets out there that come customized out of the box. But what I highly recommend is that you start learning early about Google Analytics, you learn how to set up custom dashboards, you learn how to feed information into GA through events on your site. Jon: There are limits on what type of personally identifiable information you feed in, but you can still feed in stuff without tying it back to a user pretty easily. You don't have to send a user's email, or an order number, or a phone number, or any of that kind of stuff into GA to warehouse it there, but you should be able to feed in whenever someone buys a product you can event that says this product was sold and this is the dollar value. That's not tied back to anybody. Jon: So I think there's a lot you could be thinking about there that could extend the Google Analytics to do everything you need and it's going to happen pretty easy out of the box. Now if you're looking to do segmentation that's really drilled down and have a lot of other information, you're going to need tools on top of Google Analytics to do that. But quite honestly, Google Analytics is great for the vast majority of brands out there. Ryan: Good insights, I appreciate that. As we're winding up I do have one more question that maybe it's interesting for people or not, but what's been the longest CRO engagement you've been a part of? Jon: Yeah, it's a great question. If I understand why I usually get this question it's because people want to know how long can conversion optimization influence growth. Is that basically where you're going with this too? Ryan: Yeah, it's like is it 2 years, is it 10 years, is it 6 months. Jon: I have a couple of answers to this. The first is that we've been in business over 11 years and if conversion optimization was not a sustainable thing then there'd be no way we'd be in business this long. I think the longest that we've been, I would say, we had a customer for four or five years and the engagement ebbed and flowed over time, meaning that we would sometimes be launching a lot of tests and sometimes just be holding their hand as they went through changes and coming back and forth. But they were a paying customer of ours for a handful or quite a few years, however you want to look at that. Jon: Now an average, an average goes about two years. Right around that timeline is when I see an average customer that we've helped them get to that next level where we have helped proven the value of conversion and optimization to the point that senior management decides this line item, that's not going away, so we should probably hire and bring that team in-house. I applaud that. I think at that point it makes sense. Jon: If you have a brand that has grown and you've used optimization, and you know that you're going to continue doing this, and you have successfully changed how you think as a brand to where you know that you are going to use data to make decisions, that you're going to put the consumer interactions on your site first, that you're going to really, truly care about your consumer's user experience on your site and the customer experience over all, then great, we've done our job. Jon: We have fulfilled The Good's mission of removing all of the bad online experiences until only the good remain. If I can do that at a brand and help them eliminate all of that, and want to have that same mission, and carry the torch, then I applaud that. So I think after about two years is generally when I see brands start to take that in-house, but there's a lot of brands who decide not to and continue to work with us beyond that. Ryan: In the CRO process does it ever work where you can start and stop constantly like hey, I want to do a three month here, stop for six months, do another three months, six months, stop, does that ever work or is that just more butter and can't finish the process when you start and stop constantly like that? Jon: Yeah, look at it this way, if you want to run a marathon are you going to train to win a marathon by one week running and then taking a couple weeks off and then running again? No. You need to build up [crosstalk 00:27:03]. Ryan: Did you get my training schedule? Jon: Yeah. I'll leave that one. Ryan: Yeah. Jon: But I think it's interesting, a lot of brands and business owners approach it the same way, they just feel like hey, well I can go optimize my site right now and do this once, and be done with it. That's not how it works. I think anyone can go out and do this checklist but that's just step one, that's really just the beginning. So I think all in all that when I see that and I try to set that expectation upfront and when somebody says, "Yeah, I'm going to do this for three months and then reevaluate," it's like well you know what, we can always reevaluate. We can just have that conversation at any point. Jon: But if you're only truly going to do this for three months then we're not going to be a good fit. In fact, do not spend your money on optimization at all because it's not going to have a sustainable long-term impact. You're better off just taking that money that you are going to spend and just running a bunch of discounts on your site, or spending it to drive a lot more unqualified traffic, or doing a lot of other things just to get your brand out there. Jon: But if you really truly want sustainable investment and optimization it needs to be a small amount spent on your site in a regular interval over time and it needs to be a long-term line item. So spend each month and compound that growth very much like a retirement investment account. You need to put a little bit in with every paycheck and then eventually you're going to start getting a lot out of it that it's going to just grow and grow and grow over time. Ryan: That is a phenomenal analogy, I think, for what CRO and what you should be looking at it as. Thank you Jon, I appreciate all the insights today. Ryan: Is there anything I didn't ask that I should have or a point that you wanted to get across in this topic that you couldn't get in there? Jon: I think I wanted to emphasize that CRO can be done at a company of any size, it's just the methodology in which you're going to do that. So I think you have the option to look at getting some data and making data-backed decisions at any size company. How you might use that data and approach, are you going to use that data to run AB testing? No, not for every size company. Jon: But I do think that there are options for every size company. So the mistake I see small brands make is that they feel like they can't do optimization because it's just too expensive and they look at it as an expense instead of investment, and perhaps they're intimidated by the data. But I think that there's a lot of options out there. Ryan: Jon, thank you as always for enlightening me and teaching me something new. I appreciate it. Jon: All right, looking forward to the next chat Ryan.

Today Jon takes a look at how to improve your category pages on your website. He'll explore what you should know about headers, footers, navigation, bread crumbs, and more! For help optimizing your category pages: https://thegood.com/ TRANSCRIPT: Ryan: Hello Jon, and welcome to the podcast. Ryan: I was digging through one of our shared clients analytics, and this is a rather large international brand that most of our listeners would probably recognize if we mentioned their name. And outside the home page, the largest volume of traffic to their site is condensed into just a couple category pages. Now that's not unusual for a lot of major brands because of Google's algorithm, on the organic side, favoring category pages over product pages. But it also means that there's a huge opportunity for a brand capturing a lot of this traffic to really make that traffic work better on category pages specifically. Ryan: So through this, I'd really love to hear some of your suggestions and best practices on improving those category pages. And maybe even at least some tests people can be testing as they're looking at their category pages to make some improvements. Kind of like our CRI name we coined. What do you think of that category pages and the importance of them? And should we continue down this path? Jon: I love it. Let's gain some knowledge on this. Ryan: Fantastic. So most of the listeners probably haven't had the amazing opportunity I have of hearing you talk about landing pages as much, and just seeing some of your tear downs. And so as with most of these, let's start at the top and kind of work our way down, and even some of your general best practices, probably, in header navigation can be applied to other places of the site. Especially if you keep it consistent. But do we need to think about mobile and desktop separately in this scenario? Or just pick one and go with it? What's your usual recommendation? Jon: I would recommend that we start with desktop and keep it to that for today. The reason being is that even with e-com, I think we're seeing the vast majority of traffic is now on mobile, but still a very, very large majority of conversions are happening on desktop. Now that varies from site to site, of course, but I do believe in what we see here at the good on a daily basis is conversion kings is still on desktop. And so it always makes sense to start there. The other reason is that if you fix your desktop experience and you have a responsive site, that should, for the most part, filter down to your mobile website. And so there's no longer just a desktop and a mobile version of a site. It should be responsive or adaptive for the most part. And so with that in mind, I would highly recommend starting with desktop. And then of course you could look at mobile later, but I think for the point of today's show, we could just stick with desktop. Ryan: Yeah. And if you do maybe have a mobile site and a desktop site, you may need to contact us because we may have some abilities to fix that [inaudible 00:03:12], because that's probably a struggle for your business. There's maybe some lower hanging fruit for you, before you get into Jon's conversation about it. Jon: The number of sites I still see, it's dwindling. But there is still a number of sites out there that they have mobile on a separate domain. And that's always... It's like M dot, the domain dot com. That's when I know there's a bunch of opportunity there to increase sales and conversions. Ryan: God, John knows he's going to make that company a lot of money when they listen to them. Ryan: Okay. So let's start right at the header, very top as you're scrolling down this page as soon as you come onto it, a lot of companies do things that are not great in the header. What are some of the things that they're putting in there maybe that aren't needed or that distract from the actual conversion that they're attempting to get these people to take on the site? Jon: Well, I think the first thing is that it always blows my mind when I see a header, and these brands invested so much to get people to their site, right? Whether it be content marketing or paid ads or SEO, whatever it is. And then they immediately show them social icons, and show them ways to bounce off the site. Right? Social is great for getting people to your site, but once they're there, keep them on your site. Don't send them back out to those channels. And so really be looking in the header to keep people on a site, as opposed to sending them back off through something like social links or icons, things of that sort. That's the biggest one I see. Ryan: Okay. So as far as distractions, social is the biggest issue there. What are the things that maybe companies are missing out on in that header that they should be thinking about putting into them? Jon: Well, I think that the biggest thing people miss out on is just communicating very simply what the brand is, what the value proposition is. Jon: Now, most people don't think about including that in the header. And I'm not suggesting putting your entire company story there, your entire value prop. But what I am saying is you can communicate these things through perhaps your navigation and the language that's being used there through the utility navigation, through what's the lines of texts that goes right next to your logo, right? Jon: So a lot of people will just put a logo up and expect that because they're on your website, they know exactly what you do. Well, think about it through the eyes of a new to file customer. That customer just got to your site by clicking on a link that a friend posted on social. They have a little bit of context, but it would be great to get that reinforced and the first place, especially in Western cultures, folks are going to look is the top left corner of your site. That's generally where people put their logo, but then they miss the opportunity there of including additional context. Could be just one sentence or one line, does not have to be very huge and it can be blended in with the logo, even. Ryan: Dang it. I am taking notes. I think I need to go to some of my brands and add some, maybe, lines of contexts. Jon: Well, if you want a good example just go to thegood.com and look what we do in the top left hand corner right next to our logo. Ryan: No, that's brilliant. And I think as a business owner myself, and working with brands constantly, I'm in the business too often that I don't step out of it often enough and think about the perspective of a brand new user. I clicked on a link, maybe not even necessarily thinking before I clicked, and boom. Logo. I'm supposed to know what you do right before that, but probably I don't. Jon: Well Ryan, this applies to you based on what I'm hearing right now, but it also applies to almost every e-com brand and e-com manager. Is that it's, and I've probably said this a hundred times on this show already, but it's very difficult to read the label from inside the jar. Right? You are so close to this, you probably helped to wire frame out the site, design it, define the navigation, lay out all the content. And so you're so close to that, that you know what each link does, you know what the site is, you know your value prop. So it doesn't occur to you that other people might not get that, might not understand it. And it could use a little assistance there. Ryan: Yeah. And you've helped me a lot on navigation so I'm going to jump into that in a second. But before that, site search is a often misguided location on the site. Do you recommend that as high up as you can, as obviously as you can in the header? Or do you recommend other places on the page for that? Jon: I am not opposed to having search be front and center. Having search front and center is great for people who are second time visitors or repeat visitors to your site. They know exactly what they're looking for. Think about things like a car parts dealership, right? Or car parts retailer. People may come and know exactly what model number for that very specific part that they need. They're definitely going to know what car model that they want to put that on, so they might just search by that car model. So anyway you can give people a shortcut down the funnel, and skip steps of the funnel so that they can just get to exactly what they need as quickly as possible, is better. And I can tell you that search is going to convert twice as much, if not more, than just a regular visitor. So encouraging people to use search can really help boost conversions and sales. Ryan: Wow. That is an impressive stat. So just on average from what you see when somebody uses at least a decent search, because there's different levels of search quality- Jon: Of course. Ryan: ... On a site, but an average search you see approximately 50% increased conversion rate on the traffic that uses search versus doesn't? Jon: Right. And an easy win for listening to this is just look at your top five, maybe 10, search terms that people are using and search those yourself and see what the results are. They're likely lackluster. You can easily fix that, just go through your product detail pages that are relevant and add some additional meta information to those pages to have them pop up in search results. Things like common misspellings or the plural of an item. I can't believe how many times people don't think to add an asset at the end of an item because people may search for it that way. And also just make sure that the search results page... The results themselves matter, but also that search results page that shows those results needs to be optimized as well. A lot of people just forget about it and just show no context at all. They just show the title of the page and link to it. Why not have the description there? You already should be, on your product detail pages, having some meta-description that Google can pick up, why not display that there if it's already part of the page? Ryan: No, that's great. And I think making sure that a search that happens on the site has a listing of products, generally, make sure that you can look at that in an incognito window when you scrape the URL and paste it. That way you can use it, from a traffic generation perspective, you can drive traffic from a paid search ad. But also, if you're having enough people search that on your site, you should probably make that a category page so that Google can start indexing that as well, because you're probably not alone on your site in people searching for that product. Or group of products. Jon: Exactly. Yeah. And an easy way to find out what people are searching for, just go into your Google analytics. Most platforms, I mean they all have a little bit different perhaps, but most eCommerce platforms, the search results page is just something that ends in a question mark S equals. So if you figure out what that URL pattern is, and then you can just run a filter for that question mark S equals or whatever, and then you can understand how many times people are hitting each of those search terms. Jon: So it's pretty simple to figure out with about five minutes of work and I can promise you it will increase your conversions immediately. Ryan: Awesome. Okay, one area you've helped me a lot in sites and understanding how to improve the experience for the users is navigation. And a lot of companies tend to do this wrong. They seem to think that more is better. What do you often suggest to companies when it comes to navigation? Jon: Keep it to five items or less, first of all. Anything over that and people just assume that it's going to be a lot of work and they're not at your website to do work, right? So they just like, "I don't want to weed through all these options," and it becomes more taxing than it needs to be. What I would recommend here is you keep it to five items, but also have the navigation copy, be in the context of your customer, not of yourself. What I mean by that is so many brands try to promote themselves in the navigation. They have things like about us. Nobody's coming to your website to learn about us. Now they may want to learn more about you, but not in the main navigation. They typically will scroll down to the footer and look for that, or that information that's on your about us page should be throughout your site in places that people are actually looking for it in context. Jon: So a lot of people will do things like put home as the first navigation item. Really, we all know, we've been trained over years, that if you clicked the logo in the top left hand corner, it's going to take you to the homepage. So you can eliminate home out of your navigation. That's a real easy one. Also, highly recommend if you're an e-com site and you have only a handful of categories, that you just list the high level categories in your navigation and leave it at that. That will do two things. It clearly tells people what you sell, how you can help them. And in addition to that, it gives them a quick and easy way to get to the place they want to go to. So that again, they're skipping steps that are in that funnel by having to kind of continue to drill down and find it. Jon: So there's a lot that can be done in navigation. It needs to be clear. It needs to be concise. You need to keep it to five items. And you need to try to keep yourself out of the navigation whenever possible. Ryan: Got it. Now on many category pages I will see, in addition to the top navigation, a left hand navigation or kind of a filtering system on the left hand side of the category page. Do you have an opinion on if that is good, bad, helpful, indifferent? Jon: I think it depends on the amount of product that you're trying to sell. So let's talk about that. We were actually, just before we got on the recording here, we were talking about a shoe manufacturing brand that had a left hand navigation that was filtering, that contain, I think, 40 to 50 different check boxes, right? That you could filter by. Right? And the problem with that, I mean, they had every single shoe size as a filtering option. It wasn't a dropdown, it was just a whole bunch of check boxes. So imagine being a consumer and trying to filter, but you have to look through all of these items just to find the ones that are relevant to you. It's really not that helpful. In the end it actually, I would argue, makes it more complicated. Jon: Filtering in that way can be helpful. I think it needs to be a high level filter. What are the main differentiating points? And then once they get down to the product level within that category, then you could start doing some other points, like size, availability, in stock, out of stock, et cetera. So helpful, but it depends. And the thing it depends on is how many products are you selling? If you have a handful of products, then you don't need it. People will scroll and look at your six or eight categories. If you have 50 categories, so many that you really just can't list them all on a page. Then of course you need some filtering for categories. Ryan: Got it. Okay. Makes sense. I've seen some that are great on that left hand side and the other ones that I get lost and I just leave. Ryan: So on each category page, generally speaking, best practices are to have a piece of content for the search engines, usually three or four sentences talking about that category. It's great for SEO. A lot of platforms default to having a place for that content at the very top. Have you seen that impact conversion rates being at the top, the bottom, the side, or is it kind of like it hasn't mattered too much to what you've seen? Jon: Well, I think that ideally I would put it below. If you need it for SEO purposes, that is. Right? Because most of the time that SEO type of content is not going to be helpful to the consumer. You're trying to write for Google, you're not writing for a consumer. So in that sense, I would get it out of the consumer's way. But I do think that some content above the products on a category page could be helpful in letting people know A, where they are. So any type of wayfinding you can do there, that type of stuff can be really helpful. I do think that if you're running a promotion on one category, that could be a great place to do it. If you have a little bit, or just maybe even some branding stuff where you have an image that relates to that category, showing it in use, something of that sort, can be really, really helpful. Jon: Say you sell tents and you are showing a family and you're on the category page for four people tents, right? And so you show a family camping and are sitting around a campfire with the big tent in the background. Right? Something like that can be helpful. You're setting the context and the tone. Ryan: Now also at the top, a lot of times you're going to see bread crumbs. And I've heard some good things from you about breadcrumbs and some bad things about breadcrumbs. So how do you decide whether or not breadcrumbs are helpful? Or are they always a terrible idea? Jon: I'm not really a fan of breadcrumbs. I think at this point that what has happened, it's a hold over from SEO practices of yesterday. It's not something that I see quite often anymore that is actually helpful for a consumer. And typically you're just giving them information either that they're already aware of, or that they don't really need. And if they want to go back up a level to the homepage, for instance, because you're only on a category so you're probably one level deep, maybe two. At that point they're probably just going to click the logo and go home or look at your main navigation. So overall, likely not that helpful. It's just another piece of content you're asking your visitor to wade through before they get to the content that they really are at your page for. Ryan: Okay, good. And so, just a general question going deeper, do you like them more on product pages that can get you back to a category page? Or is it just kind of across the board breadcrumbs are not a great idea? Jon: I think that it's helpful to have a navigational item that takes people up one level. Now, when you say breadcrumb I think that it starts out with homepage, next page down category page then, then your product detail page, right? So now you're four or five items long. Most people put the entire page title in those. It's not just so and so category. Look, the breadcrumb typically is dynamically built and the way that the platforms do it is that they will use the entire page title. And so they put that into the breadcrumb. Now your breadcrumb ends up being like 300, 400 characters long. It's massive. It's stretched across the entire page. It's distraction. It's not really helpful either at that point. And all of the eye tracking that we've done at the good over all these years, people never look at the breadcrumb. It becomes blindness because they see it and they stop, maybe for a split second, but they're definitely not reading the entire breadcrumb. And that's why I say it becomes a distraction and it gets in the way. Because you're making people stop and think before you're giving them the content you want. Ryan: Got it, okay. So sitting on a category page, you see a list of all the products. More and more often on a lot of these SAS platforms, I'm seeing the ability to add to cart from the category page or even just a kind of a quick view, popup JavaScript. Have you seen some direction on whether either one of those or both of those as good or bad? Jon: I personally am not a fan of those. Unless you have a product that's like a refill or something like that, where you have a limited number of products and you have a product that somebody is coming to the site and is quickly looking for that product and knows they're going to want to buy it without having to see any additional details. Jon: Here's the thing, on category pages people are still looking and browsing and trying to find the product or service that is going to solve their pain or their need. And the challenge here is that you're putting a really high intent to purchase call to action by saying add to cart, likely when they're not at the stage where they're ready add to cart. And if you just give them one image and a title, and maybe it shows the stars and the price, and then says add to cart, I would think most products, that's not enough to get somebody to purchase. So you're blowing an opportunity to send them to a page that you can convince them and show them all the wonderful benefits of your product and how great everyone else says it is in the reviews, and show it in use, and all these other things. So you're shortchanging yourself by just having the small little thing that comes up, gives minimal details and then asks people to add it to the cart. Likely not a good idea. Ryan: Probably [inaudible 00:21:29] in the quick view as well, just from, if nothing else, an analytics perspective. Where it's going to be much more complex to track that process or that funnel like category page, product page, purchase. Whereas if I go quick view, it's got to be an actions in Google analytics, if it's a JavaScript overlay, you don't get to do as much optimization on the JavaScript overlay popup necessarily. Jon: Yeah. Ryan: That's what I would say. Jon: You end up recreating that funnel in Google analytics and it's a lot of extra work. And I just think all of the negatives outweigh any of the positives. Then people say, "Well, I added this to make it easy for people to add to cart." Well, if they're not ready to add it to cart then it's not easier. Ryan: Moving down, anything else that I kind of skipped in that middle page where we jumped into the footer? You've seen products, is there a good way to put products? How many across? How many deep? How many products on a product page makes sense? What's your default response to that? Jon: I think on the category page, there's so many times where people will do a couple of things. They'll list hundreds and hundreds of products here. I think that's obviously the best use case for filtering, and I would do that filtering at the top of the page. Jon: Great example of this is we helped, a handful of years ago, to optimize Easton Baseball's website. Now, if you don't know what Easton Baseball is, they're the number one supplier of little league aluminum bats. In little league college, about 99% of swings are done with an Easton bat. They don't do anything in the major league baseball because they don't do anything with wood and aluminum's outlawed. So what does that mean? Well, the vast majority of people coming to the site are parents looking to buy their son or daughter a baseball bat. Or a softball bat. And if you went to their category page, all you saw was a wall of grid of bats. And if you can imagine what a little picture of a bat looks like online, they all look the same. Jon: They're all these sticks that are different colors, maybe. Right? But you can't communicate out of that picture. What the benefit is between the different bats, right? And they have wildly different prices. I mean, you can get a hundred dollar Easton bat and you could go all the way up to, I think, a five or $600 Easton bat. And so if you think about it, you're a parent, you get really confused. And right away, you're just upset, right? You're like, "Man, I don't know what bat to get. I'm going to be here all day clicking through all of these." And you just get frustrated really quickly. You probably just log off and go to your sports sporting goods store and just ask the guy which bat you should buy. Who's just working the counter. Not a great experience. Jon: And so once we dug in a little bit, what we found was that there are four or five different leagues, little league being one of them, that have certifications for different bats. And if your bat that you start swinging with does not have that logo of certification on it, then the umpire is supposed to not let you swing with that bat. And so the big problem is that all these parents were buying the bats based on price or the color they thought their kid would like best or whatever that is, and would end up getting to the game and the bat wouldn't be able to be used. And that's a huge let down, not only for the parent who just invested all this time trying to figure this out and got through that frustrating experience, but then the child who is up at the plate to swing, and they're being told that they have to use someone else's bat. Jon: It was creating a really poor brand experience. And what we found was that there were a couple of things parents knew about their children. What league they were playing in, and then they knew what style of hitter that the person was. So were they swinging for the fences or are they somebody who's just trying to get on base or something in between, perhaps. And then they generally knew what size of child they needed. So right? The bat is going to be different weights based on the size of the person swinging it. So they would say, "Okay, well I have a 12 year old. He can probably swing a heavier bat than my six year old," for instance. Right? So generally you have an idea of what weight you need based on the child who's swinging the bat. Jon: So what we did was we added some filtering and we made it three quick questions. With easy dropdowns. What league is your child playing? What type of hitter are they? And then do you know what weight bat you should be using? And usually what we found, we came to that third one because coaches would often tell the parent, "Buy this weight of bat for your son or daughter." So they already had that knowledge that they could bring. So what was really great there was we turned a wall of bats into something that now became three to four options. You answered those questions and it gives you a couple of options and a range of price points. And then you could decide, for your budget, what would work best and what was the bonus of stepping up a level? Jon: And it took all the frustration out of it. And their sales went up online 200, I think, 240 something percent Euro per year. Just by taking the pain point out of their category page. Ryan: So you're saying CRO has a return on an investment? Ryan: Little shameless plug for Jon's skill set there. Jon: We wouldn't have been doing it for 11 years if there's not a return here, I can tell you that. But at the same point, I think that it's all about just increasing that consumer ease of use. And if you just have a laundry list of products on a category page, that's not very useful. Especially if they all look the same or there's very minimal difference, or if they're all wildly different products. That also was a problem. And so it's like, "Where do you start as a consumer?" You think about walking into Walmart. If you didn't know what you wanted, when you walked into Walmart, you're going to be really overwhelmed because they sell everything. Jon: Yeah, it's a very similar type of experience to that feeling that somebody would have, and you want to make it as easy to use and help them to... Let them know they're in the right place, and help them make that decision as quick as you can. Ryan: Got it. And so I would advise people, a lot of times what I've heard you say, is take your category page to Starbucks. Buy somebody coffee and have them try to do something on it, to try to see some of that, because I'm guessing the Easton people didn't even conceptually think about that. Like, "No, we have all these bats. We know which one you want. Just get this one." Rather than, "Oh, you're not a parent trying to buy a bat." Jon: That's exactly it, is that they were too close to the product. They were inside the jar, and they didn't understand the pain points that the parents were having because the parents don't know as much about the product as the staff did at Easton. Ryan: Got it. Okay. So in conclusion, we've got all the way down to the bottom of the page. We've seen all the products. What are some of the things and quick best practices to be looking at in the footer of the category page? And what are some of the things you see that people do wrong down there? Jon: Well, the first thing in the footer that most people will do is they just dump all their links, extra links, down there. And it's just a grid of link after link, after link, no order to them. Maybe they put a header above them, but generally not that helpful. Jon: The first thing you should do in your footer is you should repeat your main navigation down there. And it should be the first thing on the left hand side of your footer. That way people don't have to scroll all the way back up to continue the shopping experience. If people scrolled all the way down to your footer, they are interested in your company and in your products and they want to continue shopping. So give them an easy way to do that. Ryan: And then do I add in all the navigation links you made me take out? At the top. Jon: I think there's a place here for a secondary navigation, and there's generally room for it. So that's a good thing you could add here. I think that another thing that you could add in here is your email sign up. That's always a great place. If people are still interested, but they're not ready to buy, they reached your footer, that's a good time to say, "Hey, you know what? Sign up for email and we can stay in touch." Ryan: You mean if they ignored my popup giving them 20% off their first order if they signed up with an email? Jon: Yeah. If you have those popups around by now, we're going to have some big issues because you obviously have not been listening to the questions you ask me. Yeah. Ryan: Yeah. Do not have popups. Everybody listening to this, do not have popups for email. Please put it in the footer. Jon: And maybe we'll do a whole episode on popups. And then I- Ryan: It'd be very short. Ryan: Simple answer, don't have it. Jon: Yeah. You can get me really riled up if you just keep asking me about them. Jon: Yeah. And I think the thing that should also be on the site in the footer there is your contact information. And that should be in the bottom right hand corner. And I'm always surprised by the number of sites that don't have contact information in their bottom right hand corner. But here's the thing, it increases trust if people see that you have a way to get ahold of you, but more importantly just put a physical address there. Let them know that you're not running the site out of your parents' basement. I mean, even if you are, just list your parents' address on there. It doesn't matter, right? Nobody's going to show up to this address. What they do want to know is that you're a viable business that's not just drop shipping and with no care. That you are actually reachable by either phone or support email. Ideally the physical address is really just a reassurance tool. We see that trust increases dramatically if you list one. So I would highly recommend that. Jon: So having your contact information in the bottom right hand corner is just standard practice. That's where people are going to go if they want to get ahold of you. Somebody comes to your site, they're immediately going to scroll to the bottom right hand corner if they want to reach out to you. Ryan: Yeah, I can actually vouch for this. Recently I actually didn't purchase from a site because they didn't have an address. That just, it made me concerned like, "Oh, you're just drop shipping, you're living on the internet, you're a fly by night organization." Just surprised me after I got done. I was like, "They just didn't have an address and that's all that caused me to not buy from them? That was weird." Jon: Yeah. It's surprising, right? I mean, the return on investment in this is pretty darn high because all you have to do is go to mailboxes et cetera, or a UPS store or any of those places, right? And just get a box from them for, what is it? Five bucks a month? And nobody knows that that's the address, right? People aren't Google Mapping this address. They're literally just saying, "Is it there? If it is, okay, I feel better." Ryan: Yeah. And I mean my wife and I, we have five businesses and live where we registered a lot of the businesses. And I have them on the internet, you can find my home address and nobody comes to us. Thankfully. Because I want to keep it that way, keep my privacy. Jon: Well now we're all going to show up. Ryan: Yeah. Ryan: But I think it does. I think it's a very simple thing that I've never really thought about, even until last week when I just didn't buy from a company. And I spent all day online looking at sites. And just the simple act of putting an address in a footer would have gotten that company a sale. Jon: Exactly. Ryan: Okay. Anything we've ignored or haven't touched on on a category page that you think we should be aware of? Jon: Yeah. Don't have popups. Ryan: Just email sign in at the bottom. They're not going to get a discount, it doesn't matter. Jon: Yeah, I think we've done a pretty good job of working our way through the entire page. So I feel pretty comfortable that we've answered the majority of concerns that I would have on a category pitch today. Ryan: And understand too, you'll never be done optimizing your site. You can't. Jon: There's always something. It's interesting you mentioned those tear downs that you see me do quite often at conferences and the like, and I'm never at a loss to find content for those tear downs. You can continually optimize the site and always be iterating on the site for a better experience. It's just a fact of life, but it's something that gives you a big return on that investment. It's well worth it. Ryan: Yeah, it's kind of like that Gordon Gekko thoughts. Like, "How much is enough?" More, well what's a good conversion rate? Better. There's no answer. Jon: One that is always improving. Ryan: Yes. That's your perfect conversion rate. Ryan: All right, Jon, thank you for the time and enlightening me as well as the people that are listening into us. Jon: Yeah. Thanks. It was a great conversation. Hopefully everybody's learned a lot today. Ryan: Thank you.

Ryan explores whether you should or shouldn’t use PPC automation tools to assist you in your paid search efforts. The answer isn’t so simple. For all your PPC needs check out: https://www.logicalposition.com/ What's covered today: What is PPC Automation? Should we use it? What are the benefits to Automation tools? What are the drawbacks to Automation tools? TRANSCRIPT Jon: All right, Ryan. Today we're going to talk about PPC automation, or pay-per-click automation. Now Ryan, I've been hearing a lot about pay-per-click automation tools. Now, this is mainly with brands who are doing one of two things. I see it when they're either trying to save a dollar by not working with an agency, and they think, "Hey, automation can help me do all of these things that my pay-per-click agency is doing for me." Or, they're just trying to scale their traffic up extremely quickly, and they see automation as the holy grail of them being able to do that. So, I'm really excited to learn about this, because I keep hearing about it, but I don't know much about it, and so I'm happy to have an expert to discuss this with. So let's just start by defining what PPC automation is exactly. Ryan: It's a big topic, and PPC automation can mean so many different things to different people. But high level, it generally means not touching certain pieces of an account, and having some type of computer system make decisions for you, within the Google or Microsoft Ads space, and it's even going into the social world as well. But basically, something gets done without a human touching it. Whatever that looks like, it's from high level computers. Jon: So, it's not an all or nothing. Because I was just looking at this as an all or nothing, like you're either using automation to run your PPC, or you're not. But you're telling me that just having some automation built in can actually be beneficial, as opposed to just going full automation. Ryan: Yeah. And there's different thoughts on that, just like everything online, even in CRO, I'm sure that it has to do with... Everybody's got an opinion, and it's different than everybody else's, on what works or what doesn't. It's based on their experiences or what they've seen, or what they've been told. And so, you've got extremes, where Google Smart Campaigns are an automation in Google Shopping, that will literally do everything. All you do is give it a budget, and what your return on ad spend wants to be, and it goes and does that. If it can be accomplished in the system, it will do it. If your return on ad spend goal was too high, for example, it's just going to sit there, and not really spend any money. If it's really low, it's going to spend a lot more money, and get you a lot more clients because the potential's there. Jon: So you're telling me automation can't solve all of my hopes and dreams. Ryan: I wish it could. There's some people that will promise you that, for sure, but if anybody is telling you that, they are lying, or they have an ulterior motive in place for you and your business. And on the other side, there are ways to use automation that help but don't necessarily do even the work in place of a human doing the work. And, as with most things, and my most common answer, which is also my least favorite answer in questions about digital marketing, is, it depends. Where should your business lie in that space around automation, specifically in the PPC realm? It's going to depend on where your business is at in the life cycle, what you're able to afford as far as agency or humans doing work, and what are the long-term goals of the business, or what are you trying to accomplish? Ryan: And so, let me take it in a few phases I guess, in kind of explaining what I believe in automation. You've got the full automation, where you're just going to either use a tool, or, for most businesses, use Google's Smart Campaigns in the e-commerce world to spend money for you in Google. I think in some spaces it does make sense, but it also comes with a very large asterisk, where you're having Google do all of this work for you to grow your business, but Google's goals, generally speaking, are different than yours. As a big, publicly traded company, they have responsibilities to their shareholders to grow their revenues and profits, just like you as a business owner have a responsibility to yourself or to your employees to grow revenues and profits. So for most businesses, Smart Campaigns and full automation in Google is not my recommendation, and it is mainly around understanding what's going on in your account and the ability to really scale. Ryan: But small advertisers, just starting up, you've never spent before, you really want to see if your business online has some legs to it if you start spending money, I do think Smart Campaigns within the Google space do have a place to play in that. And if I had to put a line in the sand, probably somewhere around $500 or less a month in ad spend to kind of prove a model. My wife, for example, would make me prove something to her before we actually jumped with both feet into a business and say, "Yeah, let's throw a bunch of money at it, and really see if it works." She'd say, "All right, let's kind of see what happens if you just kind of let Google do something on the side here to see what happens with 500 bucks over a couple months, 500 a month for a couple months." I think there's something there. Ryan: On the other spectrum, no automation, where you are 100% customized, doing everything either with an employee or an agency internally running an account on Google and Microsoft. That has a place to play, and I think that pool of companies where that makes sense is probably in more of a mid-tier type business model where you're spending a few thousand a month, maybe as high as 10,000 a month, where you're really just one person doing all the work for you, and you can do a lot of customization, because generally when you're at that spend level, you're not the biggest, you're not the smallest, but you're having to compete with some of those biggest, and you need some of that kind of surgical precision to find those specific keywords, or specific searches for specific products that really makes sense for your company, and you've seen the conversion rates that work. Ryan: And then, the vast majority of businesses fall kind of in the middle, where you do need some automation, and you do need some human strategy and somebody else, and some humans touching the account as well. And so, focusing on the middle is where it gets most complicated. So, for the majority of businesses out there, it's how much, or what parts of the account really make sense there. Is it an internal employee with some automation? Is it an agency using humans, and some automation? And what goes first? Is it the automation first, with a human checking on it, and making sure it's working? That's going to be a broad spectrum within the space. Jon: So, I'm hearing that it makes sense to prove out a business. So, prove out a new product perhaps, somewhere where you're just going to spend a little bit of money, and you want to start and see if there's a good product market fit there. And if so, then it would make sense to expand beyond just automation. But it does have its use cases, which is great to hear. So, okay. So, you've talked a lot about, there's three tiers to be thinking about, right? And that that kind of messy middle is where "it depends" is usually the answer, which makes sense. So, let's talk about some tools around this. What are the benefits to using pay-per-click automation tools? You mentioned one of them being to prove out a marketplace, but in terms of the tools themselves, can you talk a little bit about what the automation does in that sense? Ryan: Yeah, so there's a lot of different areas of PPC that you can actually automate. And a lot of PPC automation came about, let's say maybe 10 years ago it really started to get some traction, around bid management, and having some computer system actually automate the bid changes in the account, because it does get mundane. It does become difficult, in the middle of the night, for example, or around the clock, to be making changes in an account when you actually have humans working your account need some sleep. And so, bid management was really the beginning of the space. And so, that's constantly there. It's still there. Google even has automations built into their platform now around bids. They have enhanced CPC, which I believe, Jon, you had some fun with that setting when Google changed some settings around that. I believe you spent upwards of $200 per click on Google when we looked at your account together. Jon: Yes. That's where automation became dangerous. And again, I know nothing about this, right? And so, I thought, "Hey, I'll let Google handle it," and I clicked the box, and then ended up spending a lot of money. Ryan: Yep. Oops. And that, it happens. It's not, obviously, what happens all the time. But when automated systems get... be doing what they're told, I mean, they have to still have input from a human, they can do things that maybe aren't intended, and that is really the big thing you have to be aware of in using automation. They're really as good as the inputs you're giving them, or the person designing the algorithm. And so, heavy trading algorithms are really impacting stock markets all over. And so, big drops, big swings up and down can happen because of automation. So, you just need to be coming in with some concern or just awareness that that can happen, so you're watching it, no matter what level of automation you're using. Ryan: But there's bid management, there is automated campaign management. In fact, one of my competitors that's been around for even longer than us, and they actually have a really good name in the marketplace, they built some automated systems to take search queries that converted and build them into ad groups automatically, because that became some of the more mundane time-draining things that were happening, when you'd see a search for this specific product that you hadn't seen before, you're like, "Oh, that converted, that's great, let's make sure there's not more of that out there. Let's build a specific ad group for that search and capture all of it." Great strategies. And so, the main argument that a lot of agencies that are using automation and automated systems that are helping internal employees and agencies scale is you can spend more time strategizing on growth and let these automated systems do a lot of the stuff that are just sucking time away from maybe the things that are more mundane and you don't need to be spending high-powered talent on doing those things. Very logical. I mean, there's no scenario in which that sounds like a terrible idea. Ryan: What's happened with that, that I've seen over the last 10 years, is a lot of agencies have adopted this automation, and it's allowed for tremendous amounts of scale, without having to develop a bunch of humans to understand what's going on, or to know how to communicate with clients, which is in no way bad. But what's happening is as this scale is happening at a lot of agencies that I'm seeing their accounts is they're losing their touch with what's going on, and then how to strategize for actual growth because this tool is doing so much of the work, that they can't go in and say, this client may say, "I really want to start doing this," or, "I want to move my return on ad spend goal to this," or, "Should I be breaking into this market?" And because these tools are doing so much of the work, that question isn't as easily answered as if by somebody that was actually in the account all the time that saw the search queries, that was doing negative keyword reports, that was doing all these wonderful things, and bid management, that could actually respond very quickly and say, "Oh, here's what you need to be considering as a business owner or your marketing team when looking at this question." Ryan: And so, that's been one of my big concerns. I think about stupid, stupid movie, but Idiocracy, where you've got a guy that's been dead for so long, comes back and everybody's really dumb, and he was not smart back when he lived, but everybody got so much dumber because of automation and the world doing everything for them. I worry about that. I don't think it's happening across the board at agencies or internal teams, but I really have a lot of respect for groups of people, or agencies that have to be in the account regularly, and I see a lot better results, generally speaking, when somebody's in a Google Ads or Microsoft account making the changes, because they're seeing in real time what's happening in the market, and they have to have a lens where they're looking at things through and say, "Why is this happening? I have to go solve this problem or understand it a little bit more." Whereas, if a tool's doing all the work, they don't have to try to get in there and understand what's happening, or what is the competitor doing that's causing this to happen in this account. Jon: I heard you talk a lot about search and search ads and Google and, okay, so Google has some automation. Does Bing have automation? Microsoft Ads. Ryan: They do have some, and it's not as old as Google. So, I can't say that it works as good or has as many advancements because I also don't look under the hood and I don't understand all the engineers and what they're doing. Microsoft obviously has some very smart people and they're doing some great things in there. So, a lot of the same things you see in Google, Microsoft Ads also has a lot of that capability for automation, and I would use a lot of the same automation the same way depending on where you are in the business cycle and what is needed in your business. Jon: Okay. Now, what about social channels, because that falls under pay-per-click for me, right? Ryan: Yep. Jon: So, what about things like LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter? Is there automation built into those platforms? Ryan: There is some level of automation built into almost every platform, and I look at it almost the same no matter who or what platform it's on. It's an old example, but it still rings true. I wouldn't give all my taxes to the IRS to have them do them for me and tell me how much I owe them. We're diametrically opposed to what should be happening in that scenario. Jon: Right, success is different for each of you, right? Ryan: Exactly. Jon: Okay. Ryan: Exactly. So, if Facebook is doing everything for me and I'm just giving them a credit card and hoping that it does well, there is a piece of Facebook that wants me to succeed, but Facebook's success is more important to Facebook than my business succeeding. They know that if my business fails, another one's going to come up. Same with Google, same with Microsoft, same with LinkedIn. It's all the same. So, I, having been in this for a decade, I step a little bit away from automation whenever possible and I say, "Okay, how can I understand this better? How can I try to beat what the automation is doing?" Because what I've seen a lot of times with the engineers that build automated tools, way smarter than I am, as far as coding, math. I mean, it's not even close. But we're coming up with a strategy of maybe why this should be bid up or bid down, or maybe why this keyword should or should not be in the account. Ryan: I've still seen the humans making better decisions on that, and I think the machines and the AI is a very popular term. Artificial intelligence, everybody wants to be able to say that they do have a lot of that in their agency or in their organization, because it sounds really good. Like, "I've got this artificial intelligence that's really pushing growth and doing a lot of my thinking for me." Again, not bad at all, and I actually recommend businesses step into that space to understand it more and to use it where it's appropriate. But I still think when you have human searching and the change is constantly happening, we know that something like 15% of all searches done on Google every 90 days have never been done before. So, what is an artificial intelligence going to do with a search term that's never been done before? It can gain some insights possibly, but as we're blending in search query reports now voice search with text search, like, I type it into my computer or I search for it on Alexa or Google Home. There's a lot of different intent behind that. I've seen better results from humans looking through that and being able to filter it. Jon: Right, right. Especially working with natural language and understanding the intent behind what people are searching versus just what they say, right? Ryan: Yeah. Yep. Jon: Okay. Ryan: And so, yes, companies need to be looking at automation and considering the opportunities available, and then how is that going to compliment what they currently are doing? I don't ever look at, long-term, replacing humans... I mean, again, in the next five years that will be my long-term view. You can't predict anything in the digital space beyond five years, and really, anything longer than a year is, you're throwing darts at a dartboard way far away. But I don't foresee any time soon where I would be comfortable with my money on full automation, no human looking into that or doing it, or having a serious play within that space. I spend a decent amount of my own money on all these platforms, and I see the automation. I know the biggest players in the space. I mean, if you're in the PPC world, Marin, Kenshoo, Adobe, Acquisio. Probably hundreds of others that are doing the same thing in bid automation, in addition to Google and Microsoft, including Facebook will do some bid automation based on goals. There's no shortage of those. There's no shortage of very, very smart people working to create the next best automation. Jon: I think you made a good point earlier, and that's something I think you just touched on right now even, but it's in the favor when you do bid automation of Facebook or whoever to have that bid go up and up and up, right? So, automating means that escalation seems to happen more quickly. Is that not true? Ryan: Yeah, I mean, we saw it in your account, right? Where you were averaging in your business $20 a click, which is reasonable, based on how you spend money and the returns you get. But then all of a sudden, if everybody is on automation and everybody's using Google's automation on Google, how does Google know who's going to win? Does Google play, you know, make it socialist where everybody gets 5% because there's 20 people advertising, so we're going to even it out and make everybody little? How do you grow beyond that? And that's where logic comes into my side and says, okay, we can't all be on automation or there's just, there's no win. There's only so many ways you can look at moving bids up or down, for example. They can only move up and down, they can't move sideways, they can't move diagonal. And so, it's understanding more about the user as we add layers in from a remarking perspective, from an RLSA perspective. The more information we have about this user allows us to get more aggressive or less aggressive than maybe a competitor that doesn't have that information. Ryan: And so, all of these layers we add on add complexity and give opportunity to people that have that data. So data is actually probably, in my opinion, more valuable than some automations. The more data layers you can get, and you can get lost in data, so don't get me wrong, the idea that "Oh, big data, all you need to do is look in all these thousands of Excel sheets to figure out where that one specific customer is that you want and go find them and bid on them." It's more about using that as you're making adjustments and using the understanding and strategy behind why you may or may not be making this move. Ryan: It's fascinating, when I look at all the people I've hired in the digital marketing space and the people that have really succeeded on the backend of making the moves in an account. It's really, from a human perspective, becoming an art form in how you look at a Google Ads account, and you're kind of, I joke with the guys and girls on the team, or ladies on the team, that it's kind of like the Matrix, where you're looking at just all of these digits flying around. And the really good paid search account managers in the account really see it in a much different light than somebody like myself that would go in and say, "Yeah, okay, I see it says $200 and it says conversion." They're seeing all these different layers because of their experience. I mean, some of our people have been doing this for over a decade, 15 years actually, in the accounts, doing it, and they're so efficient and so crazy of what they can do. Ryan: And we've matched that up with people that are very good at gaming, like, the strategy piece of gaming. And so, really, we're looking at almost the gamification of digital marketing, where we're looking at these and saying, "All right, you're trying to beat these other advertisers." I'm a hyper competitive individual, as you know, and you're pretty darn competitive as well, in your basketball and marketing world. I want to win. And we find people that really want to win, and then they add their ability to see all of these moving pieces and saying, "Hey, if that competitor of our client goes out of business, that's unfortunate for that company, but it's really good for us and our client." Ryan: It becomes fun but also interesting in how you're taking that human that is really good at paid search management, and what we're trying to do is kind of make, right now my best analogy is kind of the Terminators. How are we using technology and bolting it on to them to make them more effective at what they do? Rather than replacing it, how do we give them things they can look through with weird glasses or things they can add onto their mice? What are we doing to make them more efficient as a human, and that's how we look at technology and automation. Jon: So next time I visit Logical Position, I'm going to be interacting with a bunch of cyborgs basically. Ryan: I mean, hey, if my vision comes in place. I mean, maybe two years out on that one. Jon: Dart board, right? That's one of the darts. Ryan: Yeah, one of the darts. But it's... I think the best use of PPC automation, personally, and this is my lens I look through and how we're looking at automation internally at Logical Position is, for the majority of companies in the middle, it's, how are you supplementing the humans? Instead of replacing them, how are you making them able to do more? So, we use, scripts are a great automation that a lot of people don't think about. We're using scripts to say, "All right, this ad group had a hundred impressions by 6:00 AM yesterday and it has zero today. What just happened? Something is broken there. Let's go in and see that." Replacing some of that minutia or things that just get really bored or tedious, or we just don't have the scale of a human in a large account to get to all of those pieces efficiently. How can we say, "All right, I need this to go do that"? Maybe it's not going to go through the search query reports for us and find all the negative, but it can bubble up some opportunities. Ryan: I've talked to a phenomenal technology company, Metricstory. If you haven't checked out Metricstory I think they're really cool, and they're really, man, they have some smart engineers. They're doing some automation where they're able to bubble up new opportunities based on scraping a Shopping search query report and saying, "Hey, these converted and they're actually not showing in your text ad or search portion of your account, from a search query perspective. You should put this keyword in there because it's converting on Shopping." And it can, based on their algorithm, their really smart algorithm, it can even give you an estimated return on ad spend, saying, "Hey, this keyword we think is going to get this based on ad groups around it." Ryan: So we're really looking at leveraging some of that in our efficiencies. Say, "Okay, if we have that, can we make this person able to focus more on bids on text ads because we have this filtering a search query report on Shopping?" Or we're able to find losers in the search query report on the text ad side much quicker than we could if we had to comb through it by hand. Jon: Yeah, this is a really interesting point, adding on to what people, the strategy that a human person can bring to this, with a little bit of AI, helps them to push this even further. But you still have to have the insight that somebody is bringing to the table with that experience to really pull out the meaningful changes. And I thought it was really interesting, you said earlier that aligns with this, bids and these automated bid machines, they only can go up and down. They can't go sideways or diagonal or any other dimension, right? And that's what a human is able to do. Ryan: It's a frustrating answer, but every company should be looking at kind of a backstop. And then also, if you're a company that has one person managing your account internally, I always had the worry as an agency of the bus theory, like what if they get hit by a bus? I told my team, nobody could take the public transportation because you can not be hit by a bus. We don't have enough backups. But in that scenario it's like, okay, well, who else is going to be aware of that? And it can't just be an automated system that's going to be continued going if they evaporated tomorrow, because it's unencumbered, you know, what's going on. Ryan: So, having some automation helping them, but also documenting things too so that an automation doesn't need to take all of it, but that another human could come in and replace or augment as well if somebody needs time off or pregnancy or birth or sickness, all these other things that we, at scale, with 750 employees here, we can do that automatically but a lot of companies don't have that ability. And so, they need probably a little more automation just to protect themselves but also ensure that there are some humans looking at things. Jon: Well Ryan, this has been extremely educational for me. Thank you for sharing all the knowledge around this. I am really looking forward to the day that I walk into Logical Position and I'm interacting with some cyborgs and then having you bring that skillset over to The Good so that we can continue to do the same on the conversion side. Ryan: Oh yeah. That looks fun, huh? Jon: Yes. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for educating me today. Really looking forward to not spending $200 unnecessarily on my own ads by checking a box for automation in the future. So, thank you for saving me on that earlier on. Any last words on this? Ryan: Of course, you can just send me a $200 bottle of wine and it'll be just the same. Jon: Perfect, I know what you like. It's in the mail. Ryan: No, I think it's good just to always be careful with automation. Don't assume it's going to work for you always. Just have smart humans working with you. Jon: Awesome. All right, thanks Ryan. Have a wonderful afternoon. Ryan: Thanks Jon.

Jon dives into why Conversion Rate Optimization doesn’t stop after the purchase and the different points after-purchase that you need to optimize in order to drive higher revenues. Link: The Essential Guide to Ecommerce Sales Promotions (https://thegood.com/insights/essential-ecommerce-promotion-guide/) (In this article, #51-78 are focused on promotions you can run that aren't discounts) Outline: First, Jon cover’s different points after purchase that CRO can have an impact: In cart, right after purchase -Thank you page Email post-purchase sequence: -Confirmation email -Shipping confirmation -Customer service -Please leave a review – just click here -Add to general marketing email list sends He also explains the metrics a brand should be looking at to track progress of post-purchase optimization: -Return purchase -CLTV -Conversion (overall, should go up with repeat customers!) Jon is a firm believer that companies shouldn’t use discounting in post-purchase communications. However, there may be offers you can make that are not discounts. You do not want to become a discount brand. Finally, Jon explains that a successful method for getting referrals post-purchase outside of a set loyalty program is just to ask! Very few do! Transcript: Ryan: Jon, today, I really want to move our focus to an area that I think many companies and individuals would not normally think of conversion rate optimization and the impact it can have. I'm talking about post-purchase. Most people generally would assume that once a purchase happens on the website, CRO has done its job, time to move to the next person on the site and get them to convert. But, because I know you, I'm aware that CRO doesn't stop at the purchase. There's a lot more to be done. Can you explain to people, that maybe aren't aware of post-purchase conversion rate optimization, what they need to be thinking about, what they need to be doing, and why it even exists after they've already taken the sale, done what you wanted them to do originally? Jon: Right, and I think that's an important point there, Ryan, which is that most people think that conversion optimization stops as soon as you get someone to purchase. I think that's really shortsighted and it's a big problem because so much of the consumer experience and getting people to purchase a second time, is all about what happens when they purchase that first time. So, if you get them to convert, your job's not done. At that point... you got to think of this like a marathon. You just ran a marathon. Most people who are seasoned marathon runners, they get through that finish line. They have a process they still go through to cool down, protect their body, recover a little bit. It's the same thing here. After you've- Ryan: ... And I just go drink beer. Jon: ... Right, exactly, and that's why you don't run marathons. Ryan: That's why I don't. Jon: Learned that lesson the hard way, huh? Ryan: Uh-huh (affirmative), I did. Jon: Yeah, so exactly, this is it, where we can't just stop and drink a beer. You've got to go through a follow-up process here that can really, really have a massive impact on your overall metrics of your site and success and revenue, and even your conversion rate, because most people don't think about that. But overall, your conversion rate should go up with repeat customers. Ryan: True. Jon: There's a handful of things you should be thinking about that I think we should talk about today. There's a bunch of different points after purchase that can have an impact with conversion rate optimization, and if you optimize these points, you will see higher revenues. Ryan: Okay, so somebody's purchased on my site or client's site. Action's done. Does post-purchase conversion rate start after the product arrives, or where's the first point that we can be making an impact to improve conversion rates in the future? Jon: In the cart. It starts right then. As soon as somebody completes the order, gives you their payment, what happens? Ryan: Hmm. Jon: Most of the time, people aren't really considering the first step, which is a thank you page. What is the content that you're putting on there? Now, there are ways to, even on that thank you page, influence so many extra metrics. You can influence your average order value on that thank you page. There's some great tools out there right now. One of my favorites is a company called CartHook. CartHook has a tool, where you put it onto your thank you page, and it actually shows you complimentary products to what you bought and says, "Do you want to add it to the order?" You're doing an upsell after the purchase. You already got them to commit, and maybe they're thinking, "I bought those shoes, maybe I'll add a pair of socks. Why not?" Ryan: Now is that in addition to maybe also having upsell in the shopping cart, or do you usually recommend just get them to commit to something and then try to upsell them later? Jon: Right. I think that's a big mistake people make is to do the upsells in the cart. I don't think that's serving the consumers' needs, because serving the consumers' needs is helping them complete that checkout as quickly and easily as possible. You want to get that conversion. That's most important, obviously. So, after you've completed that sale, then, go back and do the upsells. Now, that doesn't mean you're not doing upsells throughout the funnel and throughout the product detail page or categories, things of that sort, right, complimentary products. But I don't think you should be doing it in the cart. That's when you just closed the transaction, at that point. Jon: A lot of people like to think of it like retail, where you're at a grocery store and they have all the candy bars and magazines, and you're just standing there in line. It's not like that because online, you shouldn't be waiting around at the checkout. Those items are there at the grocery store line because you're waiting for the person in front of you. You're likely bored, and they're capturing your attention. It's a captive market. Well, when you're in the cart and you're checking out online, you just have one goal, and that's to get it done. So, anything you put in the way there is actually going to become a distraction and annoying for the consumer. Not something where, "You're entertaining me with the latest gossip about celebrities for five minutes while I'm waiting for the family in front of me that's scanning 300 items at the grocery store." Ryan: Oh, you follow me at the grocery store, huh Jon?" Jon: Exactly. I got one kid. I can't imagine having a whole family like yourself. I think the first step is definitely in-cart, on that thank you page. Pay attention to the messaging. You can run a lot of A/B tests on the messaging alone and see what resonates. But also, adding a tool like CartHook, where you're figuring out all of these additional metrics and how to increase things like customer lifetime value, average order value. All of that kind of even goes back into your ROAS, your return on ad spend. If you start thinking about it this way, the higher your average order value, the higher your return on ad spend. Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Now, in addition to something like a CartHook offering up some complimentary products, is there any kind of messaging or kind of like, "Hey, I really want to make them feel good about what they just did. They spent money with me..." because most companies are like, "Hey, thanks. We'll be emailing you a confirmation," and that's pretty much the thank you page. Do you recommend adding more to that, or is it just kind of just get the products in front of them, get them in and out type thing? Jon: Well, we've actually run some tests, where brands who already participate in like 1% For Good or some of these other donation or charity causes, at that point, and reemphasizing that on the thank you page. Like, "Thank you for your purchase. Did you know part of your purchase is going to these great causes?" Ryan: Oh. Jon: Right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: So, what's happening there is you're actually just making somebody feel even better. You're reassuring them about their purchase. I think that's really important there, is the reassurance. I don't know about you, but sometime... like, I bought a new car six months ago now, maybe. There's nothing like the joy of driving the new car home. But then you're sitting at home and you're like, "I'm a little guilty. I feel guilty. I bought a new car today." You know what I mean? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: It's that thing where it's like, "I just dropped a lot of money on this." Yeah, it's awesome, but at the same time, I could have got a used car that had a hundred thousand miles on it and would have got me from A to B. It's the same thing when you buy online. You need to reassure people that... they probably didn't need what they bought from you. Maybe they had some need around it. But if you did a great job with your marketing sales and every everything else but your customer experience, you helped them see the benefit of a product that maybe had a little more cost to it than what they were planning to spend, but there's some value there for them. Sometimes that's just the emotional value. But, at the same time, reassurance is really key on that thank you page. Ryan: Got it. Okay, so we've got the thank you page dialed, we've got some upsells potential there, we've told them that they're amazing and they bought from an awesome company. Now, how do I go about encouraging future business from this customer of mine? Jon: Well, I think the first thing that really needs to be paid attention here is that what happens in email post-purchase. Now, most people don't think about this when they're optimizing a site. They usually just leave it to whatever the defaults are. So, if they're using Shopify, it will automatically send out some emails, depending on what email provider, using like a Klaviyo or something like that. It will have some of these built-ins with some best practices. But this is a ripe opportunity for optimization that most people are not thinking about. Jon: I always say there's five emails that should be sent out after a purchase. It's a huge opportunity if you're missing any of these five. Now, the easiest one, and the first, is always confirmation email. The order went through, all is well, it's received, we'll be shipping it on this date or soon. Just confirming everything's gone well, it's gone through. Just send them an email, and that email should go out immediately. There's no reason to hold on to it, even if you don't have a shipping date yet. It doesn't need to have tracking information in this email. It's just, "Hey, you know what, we have your money, your order, here's your receipt," right? Ryan: Okay. Jon: That's a good opportunity, at that point... I've seen this done very well, and I don't know what the tool is, but I should definitely look into that. I've seen this done so well, where they even do the upsell in that email. This happened to me last week. I bought some lights for my yard, solar lights, and to light up what's been real... we live in Portland. It's super dark here this time of year for long hours of the day. So, I'm driving home and it's dark in my driveway. Well, what I did, I went and I got some solar lights. Yeah, probably not the best for how dark it is here, but we'll move on from that. Jon: In the cart, it said, "Hey, you bought a certain number of these, did you want to add more?" That was a great in-cart experience and I decided not to do it. But then, I got the email right away. In that email, it said, "Hey, if you change your mind, you have four hours from when this email is sent to add a few more before we're going to start packing up your order, and you'll have to just place another order." And it said, "Click here to add four more, eight more or twelve more." It even had a discount on them. I thought that was really interesting. I wanted to see it, what would happen, just from a research standpoint, so I added four more to my order. It was great. It just took me right back to a page on the site that said, "Thanks, Jon. Here's your order number. We added four more to it. Your new total is X." Ryan: And you got a discount on it, on adding the four more. Jon: Well, it was because they didn't add any more for shipping those extra four, right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: So, it wasn't a percentage off. It was saying, "Hey, we'll add these, but we won't charge you more to ship them." Ryan: Got it. Jon: Now, you could do a whole bunch of different items around discounting. We should definitely talk about discounting today, a little bit there. But I think the point here was, is that they had a captive audience. I'm going to look at my receipt email. Most people do. Ryan: Yep. Jon: It should be a highly opened email. So, it's a great captive audience and a great opportunity to do an upsell that nobody really thinks about. Ryan: No, yeah, and I can easily see how... you didn't take the complimentary products, but maybe you suggest something maybe even more different in the email, but offer a discount. Like, "Hey, add this in and we'll give you 10% off, and just include it in the order and it'll go out at the same time," or something. Jon: Right. And you think about it, it's a free cost of sale at that point for the retailers. So, there's really no additional cost in sending that email. You're already going to send the receipt. Email is super cheap as is anyways. But you don't have to advertise to them. You're not remarketing. You're not doing any of that that could add the extra cost. Jon: Okay. So, we have confirmation email. The second email is shipping confirmation. Once the order has shipped, let the consumer know immediately. "Your order has shipped. It's on its way. Here's the tracking number, and it should be there within this date range or on this specific day." Now, even if the tracking number is not available in UPS or FedEx or whatever at this point, because those can take 12 hours or 24 hours to show up in there, you can always just say, "Hey, this link won't show any results for X amount of time." But you should give them that right away because they're going to reference that, perhaps, throughout the order process or while they're waiting for the order. But I think it's a great opportunity just to confirm things have been shipped, all is still well, it's going to be there. Jon: It's a great opportunity, at that point, to also offer any resources. So, you can say, "Hey, you bought these solar lights. Let me include a video..." and this is exactly what they did for me. They included a video that showed me how to put them together, in that shipping confirmation. Ryan: Hmm. Jon: So now, I had something to kind of tease me a little bit until the products arrived. I thought it was super interesting because, not only was I just getting that shipping information, which normally I would just look at, but archive and save in case it didn't arrive, but I actually went through and reengaged with the brand by watching an installation video, which is a great opportunity. Now, when I get the product, immediately I can open the box and start using it. Right? Ryan: Oh, yeah. Jon: That's a much better experience. So, we've got confirmation email, shipping confirmation email, and the third email I always recommend is a customer service email. What do I mean by that? Well, this is just a check-in email. This should be a couple of days after the product was supposed to arrive. What should happen here is it should say something like, "Did you receive the product? Was everything okay? If not, just reply to this email and let us know." Pretty simple, right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: It's a just let them know you're there, that they have a channel if there's an issue. And what you're going to do here, is you're going to prevent a negative online review. Because if they have a problem, they're not going to go online and vent. They're going to say, "Oh, you know what, I got that email from them. I'll reply to that email and try to figure this out." And then, you have an opportunity to turn a bad situation into a good one very quickly. You're preemptively handling that situation by just letting them know you're there. And if there's no problems at all, it's still awesome just to know that that brand is available for you and that they're there. Jon: I often recommend, have this email either go out the day the product should arrive, and you can say something like, "Your product should be arriving today. Let us know if you have any problems," and things of that sort. It's also another opportunity to send some more resources. If you want to link to more stuff up on your site, or there's... we worked with a company that sells tents. They did a really good job with this. It's like how to set up your tent, right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: Because a lot of people struggle with that. They've gotten a lot easier over the years, but it's still something that required a little bit of knowledge. So, we've got confirmation emails, shipping confirmation, customer service, and then the fourth email I always recommend is please leave a review. This is a review request. Now, this should definitely go out a couple of days, maybe even a week, after they've gotten the product. The idea here is just make it so simple for them. There's a couple of tools that make this super easy. Shopper Approved. It does this extremely well. It's a reviews platform, where they just send out an email that asks for the review, and then it has five stars in the review, and it says, "Click the star that you want to rate." Ryan: Yeah, I've actually done that before and didn't even know I was giving a review. Jon: Right. It's one click. Ryan: It's phenomenally simple. Me, as an online marketer, I'm in it all day every day. Then I got a review email from one of the companies I bought from, and it was Shopper Approved. Blew me away. Like, "Wow. I actually just accidentally gave a five star review." I was going to give it anyway, but it was like, "Wow, that was ridiculously simple." Jon: Yeah, and that's exactly what it's about here, is just make it quick, make it easy, but ask for the review. Most people, at this point, don't ask for a review. They're asking for a review on their website, which I can promise you, nobody is going back to a website, from finding that product detail page for the product they purchased, and giving it a review. It's a huge red flag and perhaps we should do another episode, Ryan, on product reviews, because it's a huge red flag for consumer trust. Jon: If you see, on a product detail page, that you can leave a review, that tells me that there are so many unverified reviews on there. I don't trust what's being said anymore because the manufacturer or retailer could just be sending their entire family to that page. I want to know that they're actually verified reviews from people that have purchased and that's the only reviews that are in that mix. The best way to do that is just ask for it via email after the purchase. It's going to be a verified review. That also, and you probably know more about this though, Ryan, but that also allows you, if they're all verified, to have the star ratings show up on your product detail page listings in Google search results. Ryan: Yeah, exactly. You need to have a review aggregator that's approved by Google that's looked at their system and said, "Yes, you're actually getting legitimate reviews." I know there's some plugins on a lot of eCom platforms that allow people to just leave reviews on the site, like you said, and it doesn't build trust. Those can't be sent to Google. So, if your website is, "Hey, I got a place to get reviews. I've got 500 wonderful reviews on my website. How come Google is not allowing me to send them?" It's because you haven't used one of the 30, I believe, companies that are approved to send those reviews to ours, and Google trusts that they're legitimate. Jon: Now, you're not gaming the system, so that's helpful. Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: So, five emails. Confirmation email after purchase, shipping confirmation, customer service, leave a review, and then the fifth is just add them to your general email marketing sends. So, whatever that next email marketing send is, just add them. Now, here's the thing. If you're going to send an email every day, or even every week, the cadence can't be the same as somebody who clearly signed up for your marketing emails on your site. Now, I'm suggesting sending them marketing emails, but maybe it's once a month. It's just some way to stay in front of them, and these emails should be more helpful. They shouldn't be, "Here's the big promotion we're running right now." It should be something like, "Hey, Valentine's Day is coming up. Have you thought about ordering by X date to ensure that you'll have it in time?" Ryan: And so on this, real quick though, you would, in theory, keep them out of your marketing emails until they get to this point. You don't want to automatically, you purchased, you're in my marketing email, and you're going to get a marketing email in the middle of this cadence of emails. Like, you don't want, "Oh, shipping confirmation." "Oh..." two hours later you got the marketing email. Jon: That's exactly right. I think that's extremely important that even if they signed up... okay, this isn't a tactic I recommend. You know I rail on this all the time. But even if you had a pop-up, and you offered a discount to sign up for the marketing emails on your site before they made a purchase, you need to hold those emails a reasonable amount of time, maybe a day or two, to see if they made a purchase right away. There's so many of these tools, like Klaviyo, that make that pretty easy to do, where you can just add an exception real quick to hold them until the next email blast or something. But I would wait for them to at least complete that purchase. If they complete the purchase, then don't send a marketing email until they've gotten the other four emails. Ryan: All right, so we've got an email cadence. We've got in-cart right after the purchase. Some of the things you can do on the thank you page. We touched on this a little bit, in the process of going through there, but in addition to CartHook and maybe the email platform you're using, are there any other CRO tools people can be utilizing or looking at when they're trying to improve post-purchase conversion rates? Jon: Well, I think that it's not as data-focused on tracking every click and movement at that point. So, it's less about the toolsets here. It's more about that customer experience. Email is going to be your biggest toolset here. Yes, there's a lot of stuff you can do to run tests and see how much people are engaging with that thank you page, and there's tools like CartHook and several competitors to them, but I don't think that being as data heavy at this part of the process is going to be very beneficial. Ryan: Got it. And a lot of that is going to be measured by lifetime value of your customers. Are they increasing or not? So, if your lifetime value was $500 and then you implemented a bunch of these things Jon's talked about, did it move to $700 or $800 over a course of the time period that you're outlining? Jon: Right. And there's really three kind of goals that you should have from doing this, and three metrics that you should be tracking by optimizing post-purchase. The first is that customer lifetime value, of course. We want to see that go up over time. What influences that? A return purchase. Did you give them such a good customer experience that they came back and purchased again? Another thing is number of reviews. That's a great one because people are only going to leave a review if they're satisfied or if they're deeply unsatisfied, right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: That kind of mushy middle there, nobody really leaves a review, typically. That's why you very rarely will see like a three star review. You're going to see a five or a one, or a four, sometimes people don't like to give five unless... they reserve that for the one time a year. Maybe it's between four and one, but you see very few in between, typically. Then the third metric, besides those, that you should be thinking about is just your conversion. Your conversion rate overall should go up because of those repeat customers, in the sense that if you get more people to come back and purchase again, you should see your conversion rates go up because it's going to be an easier purchase, you're going to have more sales. So, it kind of feeds itself in this cycle. Ryan: Got it. So it's post-purchase conversion rates not something I've normally thought about, or even associate with typical CRO and what you're doing with customer testing and heat mapping and all these wonderful things you do onsite. Now, is generally post-purchase CRO a part of an overall CRO strategy or do you kind of separate them into like, get the purchase CRO and then post-purchase CRO? Jon: That's a great question. Now, my initial thought on that is that it is something that is built into what we do at The Good, and it should be part of a full conversion optimization. But it is a graduate level step. What I mean by that is if you haven't gotten into college and completed those courses of just getting the conversion, then there's no reason to focus on post-purchase yet. So, you really want to have a good customer experience up to that point, and then you can start working on post-purchase optimization. But it is an overall part of the CRO picture, and it really should be. Ryan: Now, one easy way to increase your conversion rate is to throw a bunch of discounts out, obviously. If people save money, of course they're going to buy more, generally. But how do you, or do you, recommend any discounting post-purchase? I kind of mentioned like, "Oh maybe I would throw a 10% discount out for complimentary products in an email." But that may be a bad idea. I don't know. Jon: Well, I'm not a proponent of doing discounts on a site at all. I really believe discounting is not optimization. I call it margin drain, because that's really what it is. Now, can you get more sales through discounting? People love a discount. It does work, but I'm not a proponent of it. I don't think you should be testing discounts, testing promotions in that way. There's a lot of other ways to be doing promotions that aren't just a straight up discount. And the reason is, and I say this all the time, once you bring a new-to-file customer in through a discount, your brand is forever a discount brand in the eyes of that consumer. And it's just not going to change. That means, every time you do a purchase in the future, you're going to have to offer a discount. It's just what's going to be expected. They're never going to want to pay retail price because that's not what the expectation is. Jon: But there are ways around this that are still intriguing offers that aren't discounts. We actually have an article up on our site. We'll have our producer put it in the show notes. But there's an article that we have up on The Good that's something like 90 or 100 different types of offers that you can do that aren't discounts. Ryan: Oh wow. Jon: There's just an unlimited number up there, it seems like. Now, things like buy one, get one, bundling. I mentioned, just earlier, how the company got me by saying, "Hey, we'll add four more to your order without charging you more for shipping." So, you can do things like shipping promotions. Free shipping should be something that you're considering. If not, look at a better fulfillment partner, perhaps, but there's a lot of options out there. That you're allowing people to upgrade their shipping speed. Ryan: Yeah so, one final point, I think, in the post-purchase thing. Something you and I do a lot of between our organizations is referrals. I'm always referring business over to Jon and Jon's very good at referring business to us. But in the eCommerce space, very rarely do I get asked to refer somebody else. I just bought this product. I'm really excited about it. I mean, more than likely, I'm going to be willing to refer, but very rarely do I get asked about it. And a lot of times it's... there may be a loyalty program system out there that does some of this, but what do you suggest companies do to increase some of that potential for referral? Jon: Just ask. I think, as you mentioned, so few do, and there's... most eCommerce managers are spending all this effort and money in affiliate programs, where they're getting people to recommend their product in exchange for an affiliate fee. But they ignore the power that people who actually buy can have. And I think that's a mistake. They really should be thinking a lot about how can we just get somebody who purchased, and is happy with that purchase, to be a referral source? One of the things you can do is, in that email chain that I mentioned of those five emails, instead of asking for a review, you could ask for a referral at that point, right? Ryan: Yeah. Jon: You could mix it up and do a 25% you're asking for referrals, 75% you're asking for a review, however that mix is that you'd like. There's a lot of options there. But the reality is, is all you have to do is ask, and it should cost you nothing at that point. You could offer them a gift in exchange for making a referral, something of that sort, or have a loyalty program that you're doing. There's some great tools out there. I'm a huge fan of one called Smile, smile.io. Smile.io, however you want to pronounce it. But there's a handful of these out there that do a really good job with the loyalty programs. And one of those is asking for referrals and doing it at the right step in the process. Just so few people do it that it blows my mind. Ryan: Is there a right or a wrong way to ask for that referral? Is there a way that it can make people mad, or there's a way that you've seen that's been very successful in that email chain of asking for one? Jon: The first thing I would do is offer them something of value to share. So, instead of the overt, "Just click here to publish to your Facebook a, "I just bought this product, you should too," or something that is super cheesy and very pushy. That's the mistake I see, typically. And most people aren't going to do that. But if you make it something that is really useful, like, "Hey, I just bought this tent from this company, and here's a video on how to set up a tent, or a trick on how to set up a tent, perhaps, that would make your life easier if you camp too." So you say, "Okay, well, share that out," perhaps with this referral code, something of that sort. And you can offer people a discount. Jon: Now, a lot of times... I do this a lot. If I really like something and I'm recommending it to somebody, I'll say, "You know what, I know I get a discount on that. Why don't I just make the introduction and then I know you'll get a discount." So it's, "Offer 10% off to your friends," or whatever that might be. Or, "Use this code and your friends get free shipping," or, "They get a free gift if you refer them." It doesn't, again, have to be a percentage off. But I think there's a lot of options there and a lot of offers that could be mixed in. It just requires a little bit of thought and creativity instead of doing the lazy thing that every eCom site's doing, and either not asking or just saying, "Hey, use this code and give it to your friends for a percentage off." Ryan: Got it. So, just kind of make it a little more fun or exciting, or not just the basic "give me a code." Jon: Right, exactly. Ryan: Well, that's awesome. Okay. So, we've got a lot of potential for increasing conversion rates from thank you pages to emails to referrals to countless different things. Thank you, Jon, for downloading all of that education on us. I think there's just a ton in there that I'm actually going to start implementing on some of my brands. Anything else you want to leave us with? Jon: No, I think that the first thing to think about is getting that conversion. After that, there's so much more opportunity to go that most people don't pay attention to. I think it's really important that they take that extra step. I appreciate you bringing this topic to the table and us discussing it today. Hopefully it's a value for folks. Ryan: Oh yeah, I'm sure it is. Thank you, Jon.

As the coronavirus pandemic is changing the game for businesses around the world, Jon and Ryan offer some timely advice on what you can do to propel your ecommerce business forward instead of just sitting on the sidelines. TRANSCRIPT RYAN GARROW: Jon, we are all working from home, because there's a virus running around the country, scaring us but also driving us to be safe and do different things. I'm not at all making light of that, but it is changing the game for every business. If you're a business that hasn't been impacted by this in a positive or negative way, you might be on vacation somewhere not knowing what's going on. As you're talking to companies over the last week or two, what are you hearing? Have you seen anything work, anything that's been terrible? What's the general gauge of customers that you've been speaking to or prospects you've been speaking to when it comes to business right now? JON MACDONALD: Good question. I'm hearing two camps, pretty exclusively, and it seems to be clear cut one or the other for e-commerce. The one camp is, "My sales are going better than ever. People are home, they're not shopping on retail at all and we're picking up the slack." A lot of brands that also sell through retail are seeing this because they still have a demand for their goods and they're still shipping. A lot of them are even offering special deals right now to get people to purchase even more. I see a lot of e-commerce brands I'm talking with that fall into the camp of, "Things are better than ever," and that's great. I'm so glad to hear that. Then there's the other camp that are saying, either, "I'm already out of stock of items, and I don't know when I'm going to get more," because they're having challenges-- In the United States, we're probably, what? Eight weeks behind where China was with this health epidemic. You look at that and you say, "Okay, eight weeks before the factories got going again." If they're full scale in eight weeks, we don't really know and then, the ports are really backed up and people aren't able to get the goods, even into the country. If they are, they'll be in China right now. We have a lot of issues with supply chain and I'm hearing a handful of folks that are saying, "This is a problem, I need to stop all spending. I'm not going to drive traffic anymore, because, why would I drive traffic? Why would I spend to convert my site if I can't get any product in the hands anyways?" I'm not suggesting that's right or wrong. I would love to hear your opinion on that aspect, but that's what I'm hearing. It's one of those two camps. What about your side? What are you hearing on these daily conversations? RYAN: Because we touch companies that are all e-commerce as well, we've got probably the full gamut of it. We have some small local businesses that only have storefronts and they've-- Obviously, nothing is happening. I can think of escape rooms like for entertainment, those companies stay with small little companies, didn't spend a lot but we helped them do well but nobody's going to go to an escape room for the near future. They have just nothing, no chance to market. They've got to do some interesting things. We're advising them in different ways. E-commerce, there's a lot of gut reaction we hear, mainly from smaller clients that it's like, "Pull everything back in, don't do anything. We just got to ride this out and huddle and protect what we do have." Then we have other companies of all sizes, saying, "Hey, this is great. Let's step on the gas. Let's go." Again, there's supply chain issues all over the place. Some of them are pivoting, some of them had backstop because of the previous issues with China production last year with tariffs, so that has some of our clients. They have a bunch of back stock from that even because they were worried about 25% tariff, so they had loaded up before that. We have, like you said, the full gamut. I don't think we go back to where we were three weeks ago. We're going to have a new normal for almost every business in the United States, no matter what your business is. Just lots of change. JON: Yes. Talk about that new normal a little bit, then, I'm interested. What do you think won't change? What do you think will stay the same, and what do you think will change? RYAN: What's not going to change is people are going to buy stuff online. People have already been buying online, they're going to continue buying online and so that doesn't necessarily change. What you're buying right now, I mean, if somebody had an online toilet paper retailer, they are probably in great shape right now. That's probably the ones that are like, "This is great, this is the best thing that's ever happened." I think we're going to have a reaction to that and people that sell petits are probably going to be doing wonderfully well because people are going to be sick of buying toilet paper. I think there's going to be a shift in retail, obviously. I don't know if-- I knew retail was going down and you've probably known this as well, like, it's not been a secret. Somebody told me today, I haven't actually found the article, but JCPenney may have like Forever closed all stores and gone online totally. Probably it was a good decision anyway. JON: They were headed that direction before, right? RYAN: Yes, so it accelerated that. What I see with a lot of these things that happen-- I mean, this is a very rare occurrence. I did a lot of research and I was preparing for talks around what do you do in a down economy, and you look back at the depression, and you can see how you can spend through that and you can do depressions-- Companies that advertise through recessions, depressions do better. There's a bunch of studies around that, it's no secret but when you have a cliff that we fall off of, it's not necessarily economic related. You do have to look at it from different lens and the easiest, closest thing I saw was 1918, when it was the Spanish flu, the first H1N1 and it was after World War 1 and the US was already in a recession to a degree and so this exacerbated it, but it was also, we had people that couldn't find work already and then people couldn't move. It was a very similar scenario, kind of a lockdown. They also didn't have e-commerce, they had local stores. That was basically all you could do. Retail obviously came back from there, but very unique times, but I think what it does is that when things like this happen, it shines a magnifying glass on things that were going really well and things that were going really bad. If you had a store that was already not doing well, it's really not doing well now, unless you randomly got some of the products that people need right now. JON: Right. I'm hearing that same thing that the best way to think about this is that your company needs to be able to survive this initial shock. I keep hearing the biggest similarities economically are 9/11. You get through that initial big shock and then we'll get into the recession, and then we can deal with the financial impacts. If you had a business that was having challenges already, you're not going to survive that shock because all it takes is one shock to a weakened system if you will, and your business is going to suffer the ultimate consequence because of that. If you were able to get through that shock, then you can probably pick up the pieces and we should see-- I'm not an economist, I'm just telling you what I keep hearing is optimism about this coming back up quickly. That, "Yes, we're going to hit a recession for a minute, but then we'll work our way back up pretty quickly." I think the long term effects are going to be more of an issue because of all the bailouts and money we're pumping in, we got to pay that back somehow as a United States economy, but we'll get there. The reality I think is if you are already running a business that couldn't survive the initial shock, then you had other issues as well, and if you run a decent business that had some cash that could weather the storm a little bit, then you're likely going to be better off coming out of this because maybe you'll run a little leaner, maybe you'll make sure that you're spending more effectively. I think that for you and I in terms of E-competence is what we're going to see on a regular basis is more emphasis on return on ad spend, coming out of this. I think there's going to be more emphasis on conversions for sure. I'm hearing that already from our customers and our clients. We did some research reports and interviewed everybody and the data was very eye-opening, and where people are going to cut and how they're going to cut. Are you seeing the same things? RYAN: Yes. Every company is a time to step back and analyze what's going on. I think what companies have to protect themselves against is making a really quick decision, just like, "Oh my gosh, we got to pull back and stop everything and then figure it out." It's like, "Let's stay calm, even if everything goes down." Let's hypothetically say the economy drops 20%, that's a big drop, but that still means that we have 80% still going. That's not a terrible thing. It's painful, bad things are going to happen. There's going to be people out of work. If 3 million people lose their job. I, it's 3 million people that can't buy your stuff but it also means there's still 97 million people probably working. It's not the end of the world. For some businesses, it will be, but I think it's-- Step one, remain calm and understand where we're at and that it's not a death sentence for every business out there. JON: I pulled up the data from our survey we did of e-commerce store owners. We ran the survey for about a week, last week, and I feel like it's already been a month since then, just in terms of how quickly things are moving. At that point as of the end of last week, we asked the question, "Have your e-commerce sales been negatively impacted by the recent health and economic events?" 52.2% said no. Again, it's been pretty split down the middle there, right? 52% are saying that they have not been negatively impacted. I know you sent out a bunch of great data as well, from what you're seeing from January to February, February, mid February and then end of March. Any thoughts on that data? You said January 1 through February 17th, that shopping impressions were up by 17% year over year, and revenue was up almost 14% year over year. RYAN: We saw really normal data. E-commerce has been steadily growing at that rate for years. For us, it's like, all systems go, everything's normal. I think we've got somewhere around 3,200 to 3,300 e-com clients. Then for some reason, I don't know why, I pulled some big snapshots of large segments of our e-comm data. Something happened on February 18th, couldn't find a news article or a reason. The first death in the Us-- this is US data by the way, first death in the US wasn't until February 23rd so in my head, there was something building up, some reason that people are starting to shop more. Impressions jumped to 37.4%, I think, year over year from the February 18th to 28th. I eliminated the 29th because of the leap year but that significant bump for no reason. External, there's no holiday involved and this is your year data too. Then we went into March and we looked at March 1st to the 9th, year over year and it got a little less crazy but it was still up 27% year over year. We didn't have a big move of Easter this year. I mean, there was no data other than people are online to buy things or search for things at a much higher rate. I didn't bring conversion data into those yet because latent conversions are important in a few of our clients that we just couldn't calculate that yet, but people are online. Even take my family, for example, we've been buying our groceries online for store pickup and delivery for, I don't know, a couple of years. Now, we have four small kids, nobody wants to take four kids under six to the store to buy groceries and out of everything. You can't get meat at Fred Meyer, for example, here in Portland. We had to check Walmart, can't get meat there. Costco, you could probably get meat but you're going to wait in line for an hour to get in. You're going to wait in line an hour to get stuff. They don't do pick up or delivery. Found Whole Foods, so we did a lot of searches actually just to find certain things we needed. That could be a part of it. Just continuing to search at a local level for certain things. Again, if you're being appropriate with your budgets and search, then you can capture a lot of these people that are trying to find various things. If you have it, people want to buy and they're not going to stores. JON: I think you made a good point there. I think there's goods that you need to purchase locally. You're not going to get online like meat, but even then, it's interesting. I mean, there's a lot of frozen meat companies out there that will ship you-- Omaha Steaks, things of that sort. RYAN: Exactly. If I could order Omaha Steaks for every meal, I totally would. Unfortunately, I haven't made enough money for that to be the case yet, but someday Omaha, you're shipping my steaks on a daily basis. How about that? JON: Love it. It's interesting because I'm also hearing, despite all of that, one of the questions we asked was, "Do you anticipate seeing your e-commerce sales grow as people take health precautions by not shopping in retail?" Again, 52% said yes. It aligns with those who feel their sales have not been impacted. They're also hopeful that they're going to do more of the capturing that retail group that is not buying at retail. I think that's really interesting that we'll see some hit from the e-commerce world, but it probably won't be as bad as retail. RYAN: I sure hope not. We do a lot in e-commerce together, so it'd be bad for us. I look at this, I'm an optimist. I'm an eternal optimist. I always think I'm going to win. I always think things are going to be great. I fail, of course. That's the way I look at it. I get excited because I see economic downturns as opportunities. The last time we had a big downturn, 2006, 2007, 2008 I wasn't prepared. I didn't have businesses in the places that I do now, so I couldn't capitalize when things got bad, they were house deals all over the place. If you had cash in 2008, 2009 you have a fleet of rentals at this point that probably tripled in value because you had that and you were prepared. I see this, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this is exciting. I am prepared. I have the ability to move in and get aggressive where it's appropriate." Businesses, you might be able to buy competitors for pennies on the dollars very soon if they weren't prepared. If you're an e-com store for example, and you don't have the overhead of a retail and some of your competitors have expensive retail spaces, they have to support and still pay rent, or they have employees that maybe aren't being utilized in an e-commerce scenario, they're going to be struggling and it creates significant opportunities. For me, I'm excited because I think there's so much to do and this is where companies that really want to win will be able to distance themselves if they take appropriate actions. JON: I think that's a great point of taking the optimistic view of this of, "Well, how can you help someone out by perhaps bailing them out a little bit, buying their company and helping them turn that around and everybody win from that?" I think we're going to see a lot of that coming down the line just from an economic standpoint. You mentioned there's going to be deals to be had and if you're an e-commerce company in a position to be able to invest and take advantage of those, you're going to be doing I think very well coming out of this. JON: Well, we asked a question as well around what is the response these brands are going to take. "I predict my brand will respond to these health and economic concerns by," and reducing marketing spend was 61% of the response and I thought that was interesting because that's not taking advantage of this opportunity. I mean ad-words and stuff, are going to get a lot cheaper because people aren't bidding. RYAN: I feel bad for companies that their default reaction to the tough times is to pull back marketing, especially when we're in e-commerce. For example, my brand. I separate my accounts so I have brand terms and non-brand terms. You've heard me say this constantly. I probably preach it every event you're at with me. Non-brand, that's a free agent. If somebody is searching for your product but not you, they have intent to buy based on the search, they're choosing you or a competitor. There is no scenario for a business that I am involved with in an ownership and I have some say where we are not spending down to break even to buy that customer, no scenario. I want that customer and I want them more than my competitors do. It's going to become mine so I am turning up marketing. In fact, I hired people last week in the middle of this to increase production like we are going in and we're going in aggressively. Hey, it might not well be able to win as much as I want or could, but there's no scenario. I'm actually taking it. I'm going all in and if I fall a little bit short, oh well, at least I've made some gains and I got some clients that maybe I wouldn't have been able to get even as recently as two weeks ago because my competitors hadn't pulled back their marketing yet. JON: I think that's interesting because in that same response, 8.7% said they're going to spend more on marketing. I think that's 8.7% that's going to win. I look at that and I'm like, "If you're in that minority of 9% let's just say, you have a big opportunity where you're just going to be able to take over your competition and if you keep marketing through this, there's a very high likelihood that you'll have more revenue. You're going to have more resources when you come out of this, frankly, be able to overtake your competition and just in overall spend, because they're going to be limping along through this. They're hurting themselves or their sales not being able to be propelled by this marketing. When they come out of this, it's just not going to be as pretty for them as it would be for somebody who tries to maintain their marketing as much as they can." That's been a big message to my team here too. It's like, "Let's continue to keep marketing." Now, it needs to be done tactfully. Let's not get mixed up in the COVID-19, "Here's how we're continuing to serve our customers," emails. That's not helpful. RYAN: Oh my God. That's like popups to me for you. It's like, really? Thank you 500 people that I've ever bought something from in the last 10 years emailing me. Kudos. JON: That's exactly the problem. Most people aren't going to be upset about those emails, but they're certainly not going to read them. It's not a good opportunity. RYAN: My password keeper sent me an e-mail, the one on my iPhone that stores all my passwords that I pay for once a year, sent me an e-mail. I was like, "Do I care if your developers are working from home or working from the office?" JON: As long as I can get to my passwords. RYAN: I don't care. Why would you waste the, I even cost you something to send it like human capital, fractions of pennies for emails. Like, Oh my gosh. JON: There's that for sure. The way to get through this in terms of the marketing is to acknowledge it's a problem and just say, "Hey, you know what? We know that this is going on. Don't ignore it, and certainly don't take advantage of it and try to say 'Oh, we're running a shop from home sale because everybody's stuck at home right now."' That's not going to go over very well. RYAN: No. I was talking to one of our clients that sells, it's a beauty skincare cream. They focus on organic and teens or preteens. It's something like that. They're like, "Okay, what do we do with COVID-19?" I'm like, "What do you mean? You sell skin-- You're not going to talk about that. That's terrible." They're like, "Well, people can't go out for Easter." I was like, "Well, yes, they can't." "What about getting Easter baskets? You're going to buy your daughter some makeup for," I was like, "That's great. Maybe you can do an Easter sale and push your heart on social and get some--" Influencers may be involved, but you don't want to necessarily say, "Hey, you can't go out on Easter. You still want to dress up." I mean, that's just rubbing into somebody's face because there's going to be a lot of disappointment. Every Easter we do a big event at my barn with my whole family, because I have a large one and we do a beer tasting. We work our way through the Easter letters. The beer had to start with E one year, then A, we're around S which was a great one because there's a lot of great beers that start with S or they have to have like Jesus in them. There's some bad beers with Jesus. I'm just telling you that right now. [crosstalk] JON: I can't imagine it's good beer. RYAN: But we're doing it virtually, we're doing a virtual tasting. JON: Talk about taking advantage of a situation, naming your beer off of religious figures. RYAN: Oh man, there's-- I won't mention a brewery but there's a pecan Jesus beer that it is not very good. JON: Pecan beer sounds horrible to me. RYAN: Everything about it was like, "That is not a good sounding beer." JON: I'm much more of a wine person, unfortunately. RYAN: Well, we could do wine tasting too, but it's changing. Don't push it on people.There's two things I'm telling a lot of companies [unintelligible 00:21:30] is number one, assume everybody knows I'm going to tell them to keep marketing. Outside of that, you have to be creative but move. If you don't do anything, you're never going to start moving. Understand that you're going to make some mistakes and you're going to go out there. Maybe you accidentally mentioned the COVID or coronavirus when you maybe shouldn't have, but at least you're out there testing something and you realize, "Oh, that wasn't great." Get out there and do something to expand your brand. You have to think outside the box. This is unprecedented. None of us have been through a giant downturn related to a virus. If you find somebody that's been through this, I'd love to know what country they were in when this exactly happened. They had e-commerce versus Amazon not being able to send anything but toilet paper. Getting out of, it's going to take some testing. I say also talk to an expert, whether that's Jon, whether that's me, somebody else. Talk to somebody that understands something about what you're trying to accomplish and run some ideas by him and then say, "Hey, I'm thinking of doing this. Is there a reason that you would say bad idea or yes, it's worth a try. Let's measure it." Pull back quickly if it's not working. JON: I mean one of the benefits of a slowdown right now for e-com brands is that there are experts like you and I who were a little bit slower perhaps than what you would typically see and we're giving our time back and saying, "Hey, I'm happy to chat with you. I'm happy to help as much as I can, answer questions, let's do these things." We're stuck at home. We have an extra hour a day because we're not commuting. We have extra time on our hands as a whole, as a community that I think is really interesting. It's really, really fun to see how you can use that goodwill in a way that-- I'm answering questions. I sent an e-mail out last week instead of an article which we've sent out for seven years in a row over seven years now. We send one every Tuesday and last week I was just like, "Team, it doesn't seem right to send an e-mail out this week with an article that's quite frankly a topic we had booked three months out. On our content calendar. It's not really relevant to what's going on. I don't feel we should send that out this week." They were like, "Well, we don't want to just send no e-mail. Let's send, 'hope everybody's doing well."' I was like, "No, no, no, that's not going to go well. Nobody wants to hear that." Instead what we decided was let's send an e-mail that's basically being helpful. We really wanted to just be as helpful as we could for these e-com brands and be in it with them. The whole goal was,"Okay, we have all this content, seven, eight, nine years of content that we've have up on our site that we've written. It's super helpful." I just said, "Hey, if you're having a challenge, you want some expert advice on it, reply to this e-mail and we'll look at our back catalog of content and send you the article that's specific to your need along with some context and a little bit of help on that." The amount of responses I got is overwhelming. We sent it on Tuesday, we're recording this on a Thursday afternoon. I still have dozens of emails in my inbox that I need to get through. The benefit of that is not just that we get to help the community, but also that now I'm basically writing content because I'm answering these people and saying, "Here's the old content, but here's all the stuff I would update on this right now and here's how I would be thinking about it." Then I sent that e-mail to our marketing team and they're taking that and they're updating the content on the site, or they're writing new content based off of what I'm suggesting. We're able to produce a lot of great content with this extra time that we have on our hands because everybody's working from home, not commuting. We do have some clients who are like, "Hey, talk to me in two weeks when things calm down." They're not dropping but they're saying, "Hey, I just need some time right now," which is understandable. I think that it's really interesting to see how we can all band together and help each other out and really use this to generate some great content that will be everlasting out there. I think the knowledge base, the communal knowledge base is just going to grow so much. RYAN: I think it's going out with the idea people want to give help, they want to be helpful, but they also are going to be looking for help. I think it opens up a lot of doors to maybe a partnership that you wouldn't have even been able to approach or do anything with before. One of my companies is a brand that sells to retail as well as online and my retailers are closed. They're struggling. They still have expensive rent to pay in certain areas, and so I'm like, "Okay, well, you don't sell online. I do. I know how to do it. Let's get some of your stuff online, how can I help you move product?" They're going to sell more of my product probably with some of these things as well but it's like, "Hey, you're being forced as a local business to start selling online now, let me help you compete with some of those big retailers," because a lot of times it surprises me. We have some rather large advertisers and some of them came in and said, "Yes, right now we're going to cut budgets 50%," and there's no data around that. We didn't have anything to say around it. They just dictated that. We're going to go back and talk to them through some of the logic, but that was an e-mail we got yesterday and I was like, "That makes no sense." If you have one of the largest advertisers in a category that's going to pull back 50% of their digital spend, small guys have a huge opportunity to fill that void because people are still buying these things. The volume is still there. JON: That's so true. That goes back to just that small 9% in that survey that said they're going to invest more or continue the same. I think those are the folks who are going to come out winning. If nothing else, their brand is going to get in front of new people that they wouldn't have been able to afford to get in front of before. There is some bright spot here for sure. RYAN: I'm excited but it's also, I guess I get nervous, but it's almost like an excited nervous. We don't know what's going to happen. I'm pretty confident with our team's skill set and what we're going to be able to do and your team skill set, we're going to come out of this fine. Hopefully, most of our clients do and we're able to help that but if some of their competitors of our clients don't make it. JON: Maybe they should have talked to us first. [laughter] JON: I think there's a bit of a Machiavellian message here. I don't want to say take advantage of the situation but definitely think twice about how you can utilize this in a way that is going to help your company instead of hurt it. If you start thinking with that mindset, I'm not suggesting even a growth mindset, I'm just saying every company is going to have down revenue this year. If you are just thinking about how do I maintain, then when things pick back up, you're going to really pick back up much quicker. If you say, "Hey, you know what? I know we're going to have a 20% drop, I'm just going to cut everything." Like you mentioned with that one customer, that's just the wrong mindset. I understand. Of course, that sounds, coming from you and I, of course, we should be saying keep spending on marketing because that's our business. I cannot stress the data that's behind this and the reality of this. I know I've seen you do presentations on just how car companies back in the depression came out of this and how Ford really blew up coming out of that because of the actions they took versus what is it, GM at the time? RYAN: Chrysler. JON: Chrysler. RYAN: That was crazy. JON: I think the same situation can apply here. People who keep moving forward, keep marketing are going to grow like Ford versus Chrysler did back then. Different time maybe different industries, but I think the same tenants apply. RYAN: Yes, I probably would agree. If you Google recession studies, and I think I've referenced one from the '70s and then one from the early '80s they were recessions. They did some studies around companies that advertised in, during and after a recession and compared their growth to companies that cut marketing and every time companies that advertise and marketed through the recession, despite what maybe they felt like doing grew and their marketing wasn't even as traceable as our last-click attribution type tracking that we have online. We have unprecedented tracking online that if you have profitable or even break-even marketing, I don't care what the economy is doing, there's no reason not to spend that money. I mean it's just, it's layups. JON: Well, Ryan, this has been a lot of fun to connect about this today. Hopefully, there's been some value here for listeners, some things they should be thinking about. If nothing else, hopefully, they decide that they can be the Ford of the world versus the Chrysler coming out of this in a way that is really going to help propel their business forward versus sitting on the sidelines. RYAN: Yes. Hopefully. If anybody wants to reach out to either one of us, please do. This is fun for us to talk through and help companies and advise them. It's what we live for. JON: Yes. RYAN: And we've got extra time with no commute. JON: There you go. I'm happy to help. I've been putting this on LinkedIn. Anytime I see any of our partners or any offers out there, I repost them on LinkedIn. It's like, ''Hey, guys, look, e-commerce community is banding together.'' I don't know if you saw, Privy just came out with today ShopSmallEcomm.com. RYAN: I did see that, yes. JON: Ecomm with two m's at the end. It's just amazing. They're really trying to just help all of these e-com businesses to get listed in this directory and they're doing this effort for free. Yes, it's a marketing thing for Privy, nobody's hiding that. The reality is that it's helpful and it can't hurt to list your site on there. Right, so why not? RYAN: No, not at all. I already sent it out to my wife's businesses. I've sent it to all our directors and VPs like, ''Hey, there is no reason not to support a partner, number one, because we want to do that.'' JON: I'm hearing things like Brex does credit cards for e-com. They usually offer net 60 terms with no fees and they're extending those terms out to 90-120 days with no fees, no interest. Things like that are like, ''Hey, can you see three months in the future right now. If you are sure your business is going to be around in three months, why not do this and give yourself that runway, and perhaps be able to pay some employees in this time. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to and keep advertising and take advantage of this opportunity." There are ways out there. I know there's Clearbanc that does funding, as well B-A-N-C, Clearbanc with a C. There's a ton of these type of things out there that are offering a lot right now. They understand that your balance sheet looks low, there understand what we've all been going through and they're willing to work with that. If you can show that going into this, you were doing okay, they're confident you're going to do okay when you come out of it, and they want to help you see that through. There's a lot of stuff out there right now, Ryan and everybody's got a little extra time to contribute. Everybody's kind of banding together, it's been amazing to see the e-com community. I just recommend that as many as e-com brands can take advantage of these opportunities that are in front of them and the help that has been extended, will really see it through. As you mentioned, we're both happy to help on paid search and how to keep marking on that front. Also on conversion to make sure that once you get those people there, that those dollars go as far as possible so definitely reach out. Any last thoughts on your side, Ryan? RYAN: I think the last webinar was probably just when in doubt, go. Just do it. See what happens. Again, that's kind of just get in motion. I think you can't fail if you're moving somewhere. You'll figure it out. JON: I'd rather go down swinging, right? RYAN: Heck, yes. JON: That's it. All right, Ryan. Thank you. This has been fun chat today, considering the sad circumstances and topic, but I think we're going to pull through this. RYAN: I agree. JON: I'm very excited to be able to help everybody. Thanks, Ryan. RYAN: Thank you.

Jeri Ryan joins the Caucus, to talk growing up, Miss America, the changing landscape for women in Hollywood, and how she rediscovered the voice of Seven of Nine. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In the second hour of Broncos Country Tonight, Ryan and Ben were joined live in studio by Andrew Mason from DNVR. Should Drew Lock be named the Broncos starting QB for the remainder of the season? Broncos Country Tonight TOOK THE CASE TO COURT! Ben: Yes, Ryan: No, Mase: Judge. The guys discussed offensive woes for the Broncos.

The Geeks return to talk robots, terrible presidents, and super heroes. Plus, Chris decides he is tired. Robot overlords of the future, please look kindly upon us mere humans. Let's go!

Earlier this year, we helped migrate one of our first clients onto Shopify Plus. As part of that re-platforming, we tried a new app called Retention Rocket that had dramatic results. That shouldn't be a surprise if you're familiar with the co-founder. Dylan Whitman started BVAccel, the largest Shopify agency. His experience as an agency owner directly led to the creation of Retention Rocket You'll hear: How insights as an agency owner led to the creation of Retention Rocket Why rising acquisition costs are the biggest threat to your business The intentional reason they're NOT in the app store Ryan Somrak Started in the eCommerce industry 10 years ago running sales for Bronto software where they grew the company from 0-50M having never raised a single penny of VC funding. Successfully sold to Netsuite for 200M in 2015, and eventually purchased by Oracle in 2016 where he helped open their 1st Santa Monica location. Now Ryan heads up sales at Retention Rocket. Tune in for more details! Special Offer from Retention Rocket Retention Rocket: Free Install & Free Trial 50% Off 1st 2 months Platform Fee Dedicated resources to install for non-Shopify Plus stores. Show Links Example store: Yvonne Estelle's Transcript Kurt: Hello and welcome back to the unofficial Shopify podcast. I'm your host Kurt Elster in a beautiful kind of gray, rainy, but I don't mind Skokie, Illinois, high top, Westfield Old Orchards professional building in. This is my version of Wayne Tower in Gotham city. Anyway, I want to hop in the time machine and tell you a story. Kurt: A good eight years ago, early in my career before I was the Shopify guide and fully committed to it, I had an office and below that office where some retail shops and there was one wonderful shop called [inaudible 00:00:37] that sold fine linens and tableware and basically expensive French home goods for your house. And it really is very pleasant store to go into and it turned out the owner had an interesting background and was a fun person to talk to and she said, you know, right now my website, I think she used to like Front Page. She's like, I wish I had something better. I said oh I cold help you out with that. Kurt: And we got them on Presta Shop. And it was way better. But you know, over time it was a big pain. And she stayed on that custom Presta Shop theme we developed for seven years until at the very beginning this year we moved her to Shopify plus and it was just phenomenal. I mean you can imagine going from like old and busted to the absolute super car of a E-commerce platform that is Shopify plus, really had a phenomenal impact on her business. First just in time savings, then second in a better user experience that resulted in a higher KPIs across the board. And then third, the sheer number of opportunities that were opened up by apps. Like in the past, her Google shopping was, she was literally like writing her own Google shopping feed, manually uploading it. Kurt: I mean, just crazy stuff. So now we get to automate that stuff, which freed up bandwidth for this single owner seven figure business to then turn around and start trying new things. And of the new things we tried was one that utterly prints money and has been a phenomenal experience that I want to tell you about, and that's retention rocket. So it was new to me, I was skeptical, but it looked cool. The more I learned about it it sounded good. So I said, okay, well let's give it a shot. We tried it, and just utter phenomenal success. So I've got with me Ryan Somrack from retention rocket and I'm going to, we're going to pick his brain and hear about retention rocket and why he believes it is absolutely crucial to your marketing, along with a brief history of the platform because it's kind of interesting. Kurt: So Ryan started in the E-com industry ten years ago running sales for Bronto. It's my understanding that Bronto is like the enterprise equivalent of Klaviyo and he while with them went from zero to 50 million and ACV having never raised a single penny of AVC funding. Yes, a man after my own heart, successfully sold to NetSuite for 200 million in 2015 eventually purchased by Oracle where he helped them open their first west coast office in Santa Monica. And now Mr. Ryan, where are you? Ryan: Hey Kurt, now we are in San Diego. Kurt: And whatcha doing in San Diego? Ryan: Yeah. So I'm running the sales team here at retention rocket. Kurt: Cool. And what the hell is retention rocket? Describe it for me? Ryan: What retention rocket does right, is essentially we are a retention platform that is going to gear conversations with folks, sending the right message at the right time to folks, but most importantly through the right channel, right? So if you look at how E-commerce continues to become more competitive as merchants are duly pressured by the increased ad cost and new online competitors, as a consequence of that, right? Teams are getting leaner, larger merchants are cutting staff and smaller upstarts or are comfortable running lean, teams leveraging technology. Essentially what we want to do, right, is build a retention platform that can drive on its own for clients. So that way, again, when they are paying these customer acquisition costs to get people on their site, we're then capturing their information, whether it's email or SMS or Facebook or push, right? And so that way what we're able to do with deliver messages to retain those customers through whatever channel it is that they prefer. Kurt: All right, so recapping, we run, presumably a lot of folks run Facebook ads. Facebook ads, as we've discussed on the show, are getting more expensive than ever. So you've got this high acquisition cost to drive someone to your website and then once they're there, obviously we want to compete, keep them there. But even if we had some extraordinary conversion rate, like 5% , which would be super high. That still means that 95 out of a hundred people don't buy, but they still, we still spent the money on the ad, right? Kurt: So we want to convert, retain, as many people as possible into customers. So in the past that's all right, we're going to follow up with some dynamic remarketing and we've got like, if we're really sophisticated, we're going to send it a multi part, so like three or four abandoned cart emails. And that would be part of like a larger piece of software. What I'm hearing is in retention rocket, the sole focus of your automation suite is cart abandonment recovery, really. And in that like just have it, that's just the pure focus and it's doing it in more than just email, to multiple channels. Ryan: Yeah. So think about it in this way. Right? So we started off, it was only natural for us to start off in the SMS space. Right? So to kind of give you a brief history of retention rocket, right? So our co founder Dylan Whitman was running one of the largest Shopify agencies in North America, BB Excel. Kurt: Well truthfully, I like, BB Excels' reputation is great. I like Dylan with a lot. I met him a few times and that was part of my interest and willingness to try retention rocket. I'm like if Dylan is behind it, I need to pay attention to it. Ryan: Yeah. And so that's kind of the initial reaction that most people get when we talk about our, when we introduced SMS right up front, a lot of people are hesitant about it because their initial response is, hey, we don't want to pester the customer through text messaging. And usually our response behind that is, is, well, whether you're sending them a text message, right, versus an email, if you're sending out a four part abandoned series email, how much non pestering are you doing versus you know, sending them out a one time text message to try to recoup that through a different channel? Ryan: But essentially going back, right, so Dylan working with BB excel, what he was able to do is work with a variety of merchants in the world, right? Surrounding E-commerce. And he kept coming across a consistent problem with these E-commerce shops specifically on Shopify, which was retention marketing was just taking too many systems, too many technologies, and it was way too complicated to execute. And for the people who were executing it, it was costing them so much money to where they were constantly having to worry about the overhead cost of it. So at the end of the day, again, marketing tools should empower marketers and technology should not essentially bog you down. And so that's kind of where we wanted to focus the core solution, is how do we make a tool that's easy to use for everyone. And also a tool that when we turn it on right, you can start seeing demonstrable revenue day one. Kurt: That's, yeah. Well, that's always a great win for customers. I love that. The common story that we hear from entrepreneurs, from merchants on the show is they have a pain or problem in their own life. They identify a problem and they go, "Hey, I could do this better. Why not me?" And it sounds like that exact same path got followed in software by Dylan, and having you, you said, you know, hey, this thing's going to be easy. It's going to be a quick, fast to use. Having used the thing, that is how it feels like it is no nonsense. It's not bloated. It's not over complicated. Coming from a software development background. I appreciate dashboards like that. All right, so we've established where it came from. Walk me through a certain, you've got to have a roster of cool clients on this thing. Give me a few. Just drop those names. Ryan: Yeah. We work with a variety of clients. So think of like Ivory Ella, Pura Vida, Kopari Beauty, Head Kandi Pro, Brooklyn. And so those are just a variety of clients that we work with. And then from a total demographic standpoint, right? We work with over a hundred clients today, I, and we're constantly growing again, being only a 13 month old company, having a hundred plus clients. You can kind of see the adoption rate that this is starting to take place. Kurt: Yeah, I was going to ask, hey, when did this start? All right, so just over a year ago? Ryan: Yeah, February. That like the first week of February of last year is when we officially kicked things off. Kurt: Oh, so I'm imagine, you're just starting, you've probably got like these are the core things we fixed and I mentioned you've got a long roadmap, run me through, or we've established what it does, it's retention, but really, you know, we're gonna stop browse abandonment, cart abandonment. Walk me through currently the tools in your toolbox that let me do that. And then some of the stuff that's on the roadmap that's going to be coming down the pipe soon? Ryan: Yeah, so currently what we do today, right from think of it, from when we launched our MBP, was an SMS abandonment feature, right? So somebody reaches your cart, right? Or they reached the checkout page. Most people are already collecting a phone field in that checkout or cart page, right? And so what we're doing is we're collecting that opt in, right, and then we're triggering out an abandoned text message that goes out to those customers. Ryan: Additionally from that, right, we're also providing different opt in widgets. So think of tools like texts to opt in. So you'll walk into a lot of stores, especially on Shopify, what you see today, these clients are starting to run pop up shops. So what we're doing right, is we're allowing those customers to do like a text in campaign. So, you know, text Kurt, right to 12345 to receive a SMS, like specific promotions. Right? Kurt: Those are like, those work well as radio ads. I always hear those on like Sirius. Ryan: Yeah. Kurt: You know, like Howard Stern and they're like text blah blah blah 2345 to get here, you know, free info. Ryan: Yup. Yup. Kurt: Okay cool. Ryan: Yeah. We also do things like form builders, right? So we created, after speaking with some of our customers when we launched them, right? One of the biggest things, or the concerns that they had were, hey, we've been in business right, for ten plus years we've collected a substantial amount of emails, but we've never done text message marketing before. How can we start to convert those people in a rapid growth type way. So what we've done right, is allow them to create a separate landing page, whether it's on their site or whether it's one that we actually can create in the platform itself to where you can now start leveraging the email subscribers that you have and push them through like your normal monthly newsletters that encourage those customers to then sign up for like, mobile VIP offers through the site. Right? Ryan: So now you've got an email that's triggering out to your normal customers, giving them the ability to now sign up for another channel where they might receive let's say one to two messages per month and that could be just exclusive only to like those mobile users. So that's one of the other tools. Ryan: We're just also about to release a push notification tool, right? So our whole goal right, is to start now rolling out a lot of these separate performance marketing channels. And then for us, right, it's going to start to determine when these customers are so because we're integrated into Shopify, we're able to track when that order is completed. And so for us, right, it's again, it's not focusing on, hey, we want SMS to be the main driver of it. It's really to understand, hey, this customer is receiving three to four messages a month across email, push, Facebook and text, right? We're now able to track when this customer is purchasing so we can determine like when they should receive which message at what time and when they should start falling off the different engagements from those channels. Kurt: Oh, so you're adding machine learning to it? Ryan: Yeah. That's going to be towards like the second half. Now that we're starting to collect all this data, right? Our longterm goal is to start collecting those algorithms on when the customer is purchasing, when they're making that purchase, what channel they're making that purchase on. Right? So let's say if I set up, you know, a five part abandoned series, that five part abandoned series might be a five part multichannel engagement, right? Between SMS, push, email and Facebook. But if I know that the customer purchased after receiving a text message, they automatically fall off the funnel of the remaining channels that are supposed to go out. And then now I know, hey, this customer purchased through a text message at a, you know, a 5% off coupon as opposed to purchasing through an abandoned email where I might have leveraged at 15% off coupon. So again, it's starting, we want to start to leverage again, how you want to start sending out those messages to the customer. Kurt: All right let's walk through a practical example here, cause my fear is that people aren't grasping how cool this is 'cause it may be hard to picture between, you know, buzzwords like sales channel. Yeah. All right. That wasn't a great example of a buzzword, but the ... Ryan: AI, AI is a great buzzword. Kurt: Yeah I did say machine learning. Okay. So let's walk through an example. I'm, we'll go with you Yvonne Stills, since you started with that one, I'm on Yvonne Stills dot com ,I find like, oh, these are the place mats for me. I add these to my cart. I start to check out, the doorbell rings, I moved on. What happens? How are you going to fix this for me? Ryan: Yeah. Yeah. So from there, right on the backend, we've set up based on, again, working with Yvonne and understanding what she doing from an abandoned email standpoint because it's safe to say, right, most people are sending some type of abandoned email today. Right? Kurt: Lord I hope so. Ryan: Right. Yeah. And if you're not ... Kurt: Get to work. Ryan: Yeah, right. Yeah. You're behind the game already. So essentially what we did right, is we sat down with Yvonne to understand when those emails are going out from a time perspective, we know from our end, right, that went an abandoned text message is sent out. 97% of the time that message is opened within the first three minutes of receiving that text. So again, you got to think about when a customer is abandoning, they're really essentially abandoning for a couple of reasons. One, there's customers out there that are really just looking for a discount. The other ones, there is something that could come up where they might actually have a question of they abandoned, does the short coming a different color does the shirt, do the shoes coming in different size. Right. My kid threw up in the kitchen sink, right? So now I've got to attack that. Ryan: So essentially what we're able to do then, right, is trigger out that automated text message to go out after a unique set of timing that the customer chooses. Right. Some of them send a text message out within the first 30 minutes of someone abandoning. Some people send it out after two hours of when someone abandons. So for us it's understanding when they're sending an email. So that way we can determine when we should send out a text. So now let's say I've got an abandoned text that goes out after 30 minutes, right? I follow that up after let's say four hours of sending an abandoned email and then let's say 24 hours from then, right? I want the last notification to be through, let's say their Facebook messenger account if we've collected that opt in. Ryan: So now I've got three different channels that I'm now following up with the customer to say, to remind them the purchase. So let's say they then received that text message, they open that text, right? They click on the link that's provided there and then they make that purchase. As soon as that purchase is made, right? It's an notifying Shopify on the back end that that order has been completed. So what happens is, is they fall off any abandoned email program that was set up and they would fall off any Facebook notification that's scheduled to be pushed out. Kurt: Oh dude, sweet. It's painless and seamless. All right. So for my experience with Yvonne was like literally she was like, yeah, let's set it up. And then you guys set a meeting, and then like by that afternoon it was up and running and going. Is that, did she get special treatment because this is, this is one of Kurt's clients? Or is this just because it's this easy? Ryan: Yeah, no. So it really is that easy, right? So if you, if you look at it, right, the new breed of advanced and fast growing merchants, they just want, they just want software that works, right? They don't want to have to think about it too much. They want it to produce revenue in a way where you aren't bombarding individuals X number of times. And they also want to be able to turn it on. Right? And then kind of let it go from there. Ryan: So essentially during all of our on boards, that's when we, we sit down with the customer, right, to understand like, hey, what are the different channels that they're already working in today? And then the strategies behind that and then we introduce, right, what are the strategies that we see from a multichannel perspective work for our clients. We set up their campaigns, we configure the best practices behind that and then from there moving forward, right as soon as we turn it on. Right. They've got dedicated teams behind them to help assist in any way because at the end of the day, right, it is software. It's a certain channel that most people have not gotten into. So they need that hand holding experience, which is where we typically win most of the time. Kurt: All right, so devil's advocate question here is this thing lets you some retention messages through text, number one, and it's actually we should, it wasn't noted, you know when I tested it, it's MMS. So like I got a text message with the product photo in it. It was really cool. You're in push notifications, there's Facebook messenger, there are existing solutions that do all of those things individually. Devil's advocate question, like what's the difference or the advantage here? Ryan: Yeah, no, that's a great question. Right? So I think the biggest thing that we're going to be focusing on is that these tools that we're going to collectively put into the platform, right, are not going to be things where it takes an entire team to run those technologies, right? So I think that's primarily like the first and biggest thing is that, so ease of use is really our biggest focus. I think the next thing that is going to be the biggest game changer is that we're going to be able to start collecting all of the data and from a predictive intelligence standpoint, right? Predict from an automation way of like, Hey, we noticed that customer A converts 10X higher, throw an email at a 10% off coupon, push them down this flow. But we know customer B converged 20X higher through an SMS and no coupon at all. Right? Ryan: So maybe we want to save that coupon, right? For someone that we know purchases more through, let's say email, we're going to now push customer B through like the text message funnel. So again, it's starting to understand like, where the customers are purchasing and how often they're purchasing. So then that way you can start leveraging. Another thing that we're looking at right now is, is think of like post mail, right? So companies that we know have purchased, like maybe they purchased one time and they haven't purchased within the last six months, right? Send them actual postcard, a with an offer tied to that, right? Kurt: Does it do that? Can I do that now? No? Ryan: No. It doesn't do that now, but that's exactly what we're working on. Right? So ... Kurt: That's be cool. Ryan: It's not leveraging just one channel to try to steal an attribution from another channel. We could care less about what, you know, what channel makes the sale. Right? We literally just want to understand from a customer viewpoint, right, which channel is communicating to that person and which channel they're responding the most with. So instead of say, hey, I want to have an email platform, right? And then I want to have a Facebook message platform that's going to try to take the acquisition away from my email, right, now you've got two conflicting platforms trying to steal the attribution. For us it's more about understanding what these customers, or where in the funnel they're making these purchases from first and foremost. Kurt: Yeah, it's an important distinction that I had not picked up on, that is a big advantage is you've got better attribution as opposed to like last, touch attribution that a lot of these platforms use, so you have like multiple apps all taking credit for the same thing. It's silly. Ryan: And the hard part of balancing that is right is when we start chatting, like when we go that deep with customers, a lot of the times we're having those conversations with customers that have never done SMS before, So now like you really have to kind of dial it all the way back and and look at first and foremost and say, okay, what are the retention strategies that you're doing today? Most people that we talk to are like, our retention strategy isn't that strong. We're really focused on the customer acquisition side, which we can completely understand and relate with, especially as technologies are changing and the rapid pace that E-commerce is going through. That's a valid point. But people, I think in the next, you know, in the next twelve to 24 months, you're going to see a dramatic change and people trying to focus on how do they grow the LTV of a customer and then how do they grow the AOV of a customer. And that's where I think retention is going to like take over by storm, right? Ryan: It's because now you've spent all this money to get somebody to your page, so now it's a matter of like how do you get that person to then not only convert one time on that page, but to keep that customer for let's say 12 months, 18 months, 24 months, and to take them from $60 in revenue, right to $120 in revenue over the course of that 12 months. Kurt: It's absolutely a safe bet, as acquisition costs keep getting higher, eventually currently profitable E-commerce businesses won't be sustainable anymore unless they have that shifted focus to, okay, let's focus on retention and we're going to, you're going to see that represented in a few key performance indicators where, all right, what's our lifetime value? What's our average order value? What's our repeat customer rate? And I think you're absolutely right. Not like, if you're thinking, oh, that's a hot take, it's really not. It's inevitable. Ryan: It really is. And again, it's not to focus on one channel over the other, like email, like you hear these things, that email is dying, right? Or email is going away, right? That's just 100% false. What's happening, right, is that there's just been so many email providers, right, that the space in general is just a bit saturated and email is so cheap, right? That people can send, you know, five, six messages a week to the same customer. Right. And it's relatively inexpensive, which is why I think email is going to continue to be around. Ryan: Our position, right, is you need to find, you need to find a real like, almost like painting a picture, right? You need to find a way to where you're not just focused on one specific outlet to start responding to that customer and that's all part of like what we're even learning as a company. Right? Do we know if a back in stock reminder is better notified through push notifications than email or text? Do we, you know, do we notice that hey, a new product launch or, or let's say you know, basically hey an update to some new products that we're rolling out. Like should that be going through an email as opposed to anything else? Do we think a buy one get one free sale is more geared towards SMS then email or push? These are all things that like we're starting to at, and which is I think going to be the biggest proponent of like how customers start to trigger out their marketing messages. Kurt: No, absolutely. Okay. Going backwards a little bit. What is the, if we've got all of these channels unified in one app and we don't have to deal with a bunch of separate apps and now we're collecting this data. Okay. Then it stands to reason. You may have a cool dashboard, but it's also, it's a 13 month old app so, I don't know if it isn't there yet. Talk to me about the reporting and what that dashboard it looks like a little bit? Ryan: Yeah. So right now we're able to look at total messages sent right from a channel perspective. So if you sign up and you use like our Facebook tool, if you sign up for obviously SMS and push, right? We'll the able to tell you how many messages are going out through those various channels. We'll be able to report on how many people have opted in through those various channels. Then we can take a look at a sales attribution's as well as revenue generated. Right? So what we're going to be doing moving forward is we're actually going to dive in a little bit deeper from a reporting standpoint. So from like a customer level, right? You can actually look at the customers who have opted in. You can see things like their their last purchase. You can see things like the last item that they abandoned. Ryan: You can see things like total orders that they have on your site. You can see the average order value that they have on your site and we're actually putting them into predefined segments. So then that way when people start to send like outbound promotionals through text or through push or through Facebook, right? You're now able to maybe not send the same message to everyone. You can now start to dissect, hey, I want this message with free shipping to go to customers that we know have purchased more than twice. We want the customers who have purchased less than twice, right to receive, maybe like 5% off or something like that. Ryan: So from there, right, we're also going to be tracking things like opens, clicks, conversions, and then we're also going to be, from a diagraph standpoint, being able to show you exactly where customers are opting in. So, for example, right, if we know that we've got 30 customers that sign up for the text to join campaign versus maybe 15 people who have signed up by abandoning a product versus 10 people who have signed up after completing a purchase, right? You obviously want to know where some of these folks are are signing up. So then that way you can also determine like, which message should be going out to those folks as well. Kurt: So dope, dude, so sick. Ryan: Yeah, it's exciting. So we're super stoked, you know, like at the same time we've got, you know, we've got a two year roadmap, that like we're looking ahead on which is, you look at that and you're like, shit, like that's a long roadmap. But you think of like where E-commerce is going to be, you know, two years from now. I mean just over the last 12 months, like it's changed so radically, just with the changes that are happening within Facebook itself, right? Like, and the customer acquisition costs between now and 12 months ago. There's just always a constant radical shift. So for us, right, it's the challenge for us is, is staying on focus to the roadmap that we have in hand and making sure that we develop a product that again, is easy to use for the customer. And then first and foremost drives them revenue the moment that they turn it on. Kurt: So cool. Yeah. Well that was what amazed, me was how rapidly we were able to get the thing going and making sales. But one objection possible, objection here some of the brands you rattle off, I know her on Shopify plus Yvonne Styles is on Shopify plus. Do you have to be on Shopify plus for this thing to work? Ryan: Yeah, great question. No, you don't have to be on Shopify plus a to use the APP. So right now in its current state, right, we work with Shopify plus and people who are on Shopify, you know, either regular, or if they're on Shopify advanced and Shopify itself is just such an easy platform to work with. It's also a reason that we wanted to start there before venturing out. Kurt: That makes sense, on the topic I noticed like all right, another devil's advocate question. This thing's not in the Shopify APP store and I noticed like there's some big popular apps that aren't in the APP store. What's the deal with that? Ryan: Yeah. So in our current state, right, we're really focused on building, with how young we are still in our current state, we're focused on building one to one relationships with our customers and solving their problems. I think over time, right, as our product eve continues to evolve, you'll see retention rocket in the app store. So we're definitely looking at something like that. We just want to make sure that from a timing perspective, that we're able to deliver right, what the customers are looking for. Kurt: That ambulance you order just arrived. Okay. Nope, that makes sense. The way I'm hearing that as if it was in the APP store, anyone could just click install retention rocket. It's much harder to scale that experience, versus right now it's easier for you to work one on one and have that very high touch onboarding by having it just, okay, you sign up for it on the retention rocket website. Ryan: Yeah, because here's a perfect example of it, right? We get someone who's never done text messaging before, right? They download the retention rocket app in the APP store having never done anything with text messaging before. Like, their question is going to be, you know, what's the best way to op customers, via SMS, what's the best practices on sending SMS, right? Do I send once a week? Do I send twice a day, right? Do I send once a month? So these are all questions that for each customer, they're all going to be different, right? It depends on are, you know, are you a Pura Vida, right? Versus you know, a TAF clothing. Like are you selling $30 items right, where you don't care what the discount is a or are you selling, you know, $400 pairs of shoes that you're not discounting at all? Ryan: So for us, right? It's really a matter, the tool we know will be effective, right, when done the right way. And that's why we want to sit down with those customers and really understand like what they're doing today and how we can incorporate retention rocket to take them to the next level. Kurt: Cool. So what's, what's the typical ROI or results of using retention rocket? Ryan: Yeah, that's a good question. Right? Kurt: 'Cause it says you've got so far, you've got a 20 million that you've revenue increase for retention rocket customers. I see that on your website. Ryan: Yeah. I mean our average, I would say for people who do, from an abandoned cart standpoint, right? I'm just from a recovery standpoint and we've got customers that average anywhere from 300 to a thousand bucks a day, even more, right? Like I don't want to single out the people that we see doing like 4K a day. And I know that's a big average, but it also determines, right, again, like the amount of traffic that they're driving on their site, right? And the actual, the cart value of when someone abandons, right? Ryan: So I'd say typically, on average you can see about 300 to a thousand bucks per day in revenue. The conversion rates that we're seeing a range anywhere from 19 all the way up to 38% right? We've got a reach a fashion retailer down in Auburn that when we turn it on and we ran a 30 day performance forum, they drove over 40K and sales. They had a 46% open rate and a 38% conversion rate. Kurt: That's crazy. That's nuts. Ryan: Yeah. You think about it, right? If you, if you're doing an abandoned cart emails exceptionally well, you're seeing anywhere from let's say like a 12 to 15% conversion rate. Right? That could be fair. So imagine, right? If you increase that even another 9% or 10% what's that doing to the bottom line of the business, and for some of these folks, right? Who are just starting, you know, on a Shopify, an extra 300 bucks a day in revenue is a really big impact for them. So that's kind of some of the things we've seen from an outbound standpoint, people who were doing, I think you'll start to see more and more of this as people start to engage with SMS more, right? Ryan: The average ROI that we see is anywhere from a nine to 10X on those out bounds. Kurt: Alright, you've already sold me on it, stop selling, I want it. How much is it going to cost me? Ryan: Yeah. Right. So we do it based on different tiers, right? So it's based on the amount of orders that they do per day. So it could be anywhere from 99 bucks a month all the way up to 1000 bucks a month. And then from an outbound standpoint, right, they just pay a per message costs on those out bounds. So if they send a regular text message, or like a regular hundred 60 character SMS, you're looking at a penny per message. If they send an MMS like you were referring to earlier where they send something like a picture in there or a Gif, right, you can even include a two minute video inside those tax. You're looking at two cents per message. Kurt: That's cheap. Is there a set up fee for it? Ryan: Yeah, so typically there's a setup fee. So what we're going to do for anyone who wants to try it out, right from, from viewing on the podcast is we're going to do a free install for them as well as ... Kurt: Alright they're gonna shake you down. All right. We'll do a free install. What else do they get, any more? Keep it coming. Ryan: A free install. We're going to do a free trial for them. Kurt: How long is the free trial? Ryan: Yeah, the free trial will last up to 30 days. Kurt: Okay. Free install ,free trial. Gimme more. I need more? Ryan: Yup. Yup. You're going ... Kurt: Let's turn those pockets inside out. Ryan: So if they want to sign on right after after the trial, right. We're going to do 50% off their first two months of the platform fee. Kurt: Oh yeah. Okay. All right. That's you've been properly shaken down so we get free install free trial, 50% off for the first 60 days. Did I miss anything? Is that everything? I mean this is pretty good. All right, where do I go to get started? Ryan: So you're going to, there should be a link that's provided to the podcast, right? Kurt: In the show notes, all right. Exactly. Yeah, so in the show notes that they sign up through that link, it will then generate back to us to give them that special promotion. All right, listener note. If you're on you're on your phone, tap or swipe up on the episode art and it will open up the show notes and you'll find I will stick that in there. Like big heading, special offer from retention rocket. We turned Ryan's pockets inside out and then that will have the link, like a special shortened link that will take you to the page to get the offer. Or if it doesn't, I'm sure you could just, when you're doing the onboarding doc, I heard about you for Kurt, give me those free 60 days nerd and they should help you out there. Don't call him a nerd though, I guess Ryan: Say whatever they want when they sign up. Kurt: Cool. All right, well here I got one. An odd ball question for you. What apps have really good synergy with retention rocket? Like if I really want to make sure that I'm getting the most out of retention rocket, is there anything I should already be doing that would make me a good candidate for it? Ryan: Yeah, right. So I'd say the, the platforms right? That we're working right now on to build some pretty cool use cases. So [inaudible 00:34:56] won, right? Clavio from like an email perspective, smile.io from a rewards. Kurt: Love smile. Ryan: Yeah. Right. So we're working on some really good use cases with them on how they can incorporate SMS to their client base. Right. And then we're also working, we're going to be working pretty closely with recharge from a subscription standpoint, which I think will be, will throw out some really good use cases on people who obviously are abandoning subscriptions or things like auto refill reminders. So stuff like that is going to be down, actually not, pretty far away. So we'll be rolling those out pretty soon. So I think like people that are using those technologies seem to play really well with retention rocket. Kurt: Super Cool. Wow. All right. I got to go sign up. I gotta go sign my wife up for retention rocket. Thank you Ryan. This has been fantastic. I'm inspired. I got to go set this thing up. Ryan: Yeah, we appreciate it, man. So thanks for the help.

Ryan Daniel Moran was a preacher-in-training turned entrepreneur. He moved to Austin with little to nothing to his him name, and launched Amazon businesses that he eventually sold for over 8 figures. Ryan did us all a solid – really – by documenting and sharing his journey. The Freedom Fast Lane Podcast helps entrepreneurs at every stage of their business, from startup to exit. In this interview, Ryan shares his top three “mistakes”, or as discussed, things he wishes he did differently as he looks back. He openly shares his story and journey, in the hopes that other entrepreneurs do things to maximize the value of their business (and life). Through Ryan's conference, Capitalism.com, he helps bring like minded entrepreneurs and experts in the ecommerce space together to build brands and businesses that last. While he may be a preacher-school-dropout, Ryan still has a way of delivering the goods when it comes to advocating doing the right thing…so good things follow. Episode Highlights: [1:25] Who is Ryan Daniel Moran? [4:38] Is it better to buy or build? [6:43] Ryan thinks we're in a “seller's market” [8:05] What are Ryan's “mistakes” and what would he do differently. [11:30] Does it matter if you like your buyer? Does likability matter? [13:52] The likable buyer story…who won out over an all cash buyer. [15:12] Mistake # 1 – playing the short term. [17:25] Mistake #2 – telling people what to do and diminishing their talent. [18:51] Ryan shares his staffing team numbers. Inhouse and remote. [20:06] Mistake #3 – Ryan wishes he spent more money on advertising, customer acquisition, and brand building. [22:51] Why is a 100% Amazon business worth less than a Shopify store? [24:00] What channels would Ryan expand to – beyond Amazon.com [25:30] The first “nut you have to crack” [27:02] Ryan disagrees with Joe! [30:40] Brands last, product businesses don't. [31:06] Should you be thinking about a possible exit at all times? [33:05] What gives Ryan the “goosies”. Ok…he didn't say goosies, that was JLo. [33:58] Know what you will do with your money before you sell! [36:10] Should you plan your next brand before you sell, or stay focused? [39:29] How do you get more Ryan Daniel Moran Transcription: Mark: So if I could go back in time I would do a number of things different than I did in my entrepreneurial past especially before I sold my first company. And I have told you the story before that when I sold my first company I sold it for $165,000 only to find out that a year later the same person who bought the company got an offer for 350,000 without changing anything about the business at all. So … and there's a lot of regrets I have by not going back in time obviously I think anybody would like to have that ability. Joe: I'm glad it's that instead of saying you're bringing me on as a business partner. Mark: Well, you're here so I can't … I might not say that to your face. Only when you're on vacation and I have somebody else filling in as guest host. Joe: Well, Jason doesn't listen to the podcast, let's talk about him. Mark: Right. Exactly. Joe: Conversation … no regrets there. Yes and Daniel Ryan Moran was our guest and he talked about some of the regrets or as we called the mistakes because that's how he learns in life as many of us do by making mistakes and in trying not to make them over again. Fascinating … fascinating yes they're our podcast today Mark. I don't know if you recall … if you were there for his presentation at Smart Record over the last summer in Austin but he got up on stage and he spoke for 60 minutes with no script, no PowerPoint presentation and everybody was captivated. And the information that he has in it … volume of entrepreneurs that he works with and the velocities, and the approach, and everything about the way he does business and the way he literally … I mean not literally, preaches business. Okay, he's a … he was going to be a preacher so I want to say preacher school dropout. He chose to be an entrepreneur instead but the way that he talks about things is spot on with the way that we see the most successful entrepreneurs run their businesses. They focus on a number of different things and they implement those and maybe someday if they choose to exit they're in a great position to do so. Ryan talks about all of that including his own two exits that combined totaled over eight figures. Mark: Daniel Ryan Moran, same Moran that comes from Freedom Fast Lane right? Joe: Freedom Fast Lane Podcast where he talks about his story. You know five years ago he had a car and he drove to Austin, Texas and he decided he was going to launch an Amazon business and record his journey. And his journey is not over yet. It's on a new adventure, a different larger adventure but his journey kind of came to a new chapter after selling the last Amazon business that he had. But he talks about it all the way through on the Freedom Fast Lane Podcast. He got tired of seeing people do things the wrong way and learned ways to cheat at conferences and started to do his own conferences through capitalism.com and bringing good like-minded people together that build strong foundation long term value businesses and he talked about all of that today. Mark: Fantastic I can't wait to hear it. Let's go to it. Joe: Hey, folks, it's Joe Valley from Quiet Light Brokerage and today I've got somebody that a lot of you might know already. His name is Ryan Daniel Moran. Ryan, welcome to the show. Ryan: Joe thanks about having me in, let's make some magic. Joe: Listen I was having a barbecue last night we had some friends over and this is an absolute true story and one of them is an entrepreneur wannabe. She's in the corporate world and she bought some Amazon products and she tried something and it didn't work but she's going to go at it again someday and she's grilling me … she always asked me how things are with Quiet Light Brokerage and she starts asking about the podcast. I said yeah we're doing all right and hey have you ever talked to Ryan Daniel Moran just like that and here you are today we're talking to you. You're kind of a little celebrity I should say … little, you're kind of a celebrity; a rock star maybe for this … look it was a 50 year old woman. She's rather attractive and she knows who you are. Ryan: Well you know it's like my ideal market is attractive 50 year old women. We all know that that's the market I'm after right now. So tell her to give me a … maybe call me maybe. Joe: She loves listening and the fact that you're first and foremost helping people that's what she loves about it. She says someday she's going to get back to it but she loves listening and she's going to take that leap at some point in the future so good for you. And listen as I said prior to the intro we don't do fancy intros. So if you would … I know it's hard to talk about yourself but give folks a little bit of background about yourself; who you are, where you came from, and what you're all about. Ryan: Yeah. I invest in and I start physical products brands. And the way that I got to that point was actually as a pastoral student back in 2006. I built my first website and started my first business in between high school and college on my shared dial-up computer in my living room and hand coded websites using raw HTML in a software program called Dreamweaver. If you are old enough to remember Dreamweaver and you know it well. So what's funny is we hear a lot of people who are talking about building and … or selling businesses thinking about the good old or either like all the opportunity is gone now or the good old days have these … man, I was hand coding websites in Dreamweaver on a dial up computer. Do you realize how much more opportunity we have now being able to build websites on platforms and sell products on Amazon? So the opportunities are way way bigger now but I was just trying to find a way to supplement my … what I expected to be $30,000 a year salary as a pastor. Now fast forward a few years I did not finish the pastoral route for reasons that would be probably best left on a second podcast that you have Joe that's going to be called quiet skepticism. Joe: Yeah, some kind of … something where we're helping people, we're guiding them off that path right. Ryan: Exactly; quiet go to the light we'll call it. And I did not finish that route and I became a full time entrepreneur. So I was in really involved in the internet marketing space for many years until I really decided or realized I hated that crowd. I didn't like hanging out with those people. So I was like what a conference where those people hung out and I took the skill set that I had from Search Engine Optimization from Pay-Per-Click Marketing from Email Copyrighting and I applied it to physical products brands. And I've had a couple of different exits in the physical products world and now I'm an investor in physical products businesses because it's what I know. It's who I can help the most. And I think it's one of the biggest upside is in the market right now whether you are selling or building a business or buying a business, I think there's a tremendous amount of white space with the transition from big brands into more what I call micro brands mostly Internet based that's where I see the biggest opportunities right now. So that's a … I've had a couple of exits and the total over billed were eight figures in cash exchange. I still own a minority stake in a few of those businesses and have a portfolio business but my primary focus is investing in physical products brands and I have a media company for entrepreneurs at capitalism.com. Joe: Okay, so when it comes to investing people look at buy versus build. In fact, we had a podcast recently with our newest broker Walker Diebel who wrote about a book called Buy Versus Build and there's a really long subtitle and it was a … it quickly rocketed to the top 10 podcasts that we have. And you're talking about investing, do you think it's better to buy versus build at this point in your career or would you recommend somebody that's just starting out to scrape some dollars together and bootstrap something and start? Ryan: Yeah, it's better for me to invest but it wasn't better for me five years ago. In 2013 when I took my first sale on Amazon.com for a physical product I know business investing in physical product brands. I know businesses buying physical products brands now … back then I was buying a lot of websites. And you know what I was buying Joe? I was buying search engine friendly websites with email lists … social media followings weren't this big back then, but with audiences, followings targeting each market that sold affiliate products; because that was what I knew. Joe: That's what you knew. Ryan: I would have been a lot of people who are like looking for the system and that you are the system. You are the machine. And your machine is unique to you. So applying your machine to different opportunities is where value is created. So for me, I'm … at this point, I have more upside as an investor because I already have all the retail connections. I have the connections to sell businesses. I'm connected to other investors. That's my own skill set but the entrepreneur who I invest in is way better suited to start that company than I am and that's what capitalism is. Where I get the value that I bring in combination of the value that you bring and when we bring them together it's greater than the sum of our arts. And so for me yeah I'm … I have more value as an investor but to say like it's better I think would be a mistake. Joe: You know I think you're absolutely right. It depends upon the individual's situation without a doubt. I bought and I've sold and I've invested as well and I can say each were successful in their own way and each were very very difficult in their own ways as well. You'll learn along the way from the mistakes mostly. Ryan: If I could Joe I will add though, I mean globally I think we're in a seller's market. I think we're looking at buying versus selling if I give it a binary choice I do think we're in a seller's market right now. Joe: I have to agree with you 100%. When we have a good quality listing come … I had a conversation with someone this morning who wants to buy. And he's a referral from somebody who already bought and this guy is doing great so I want to do what he's doing. And the response is look when a great listing comes along you need to be prepared. So the more listings you look at the more you're going to know the right shit when it comes along. And you need to be able to act fast because you and a dozen other people are doing the same thing and they're going to make an offer on that business. So I agree it's a seller's market but at the same time, the multiple still don't get pushed too high. It's still the buyer to decide that. You and I as sellers, as brokers can pick whatever number we think the value of the business is but we don't make the final decision at the end it's usually the buyer. The seller's got a lot to say about it because they can say yes or no. But it's still the buyer makes the decision in terms of the value for the most part. But you just recently said you've exited a couple of different times in the last few years. What did you learn in that process if you look at the exit? Or maybe do you want to talk about the fact … the mistakes you made maybe building and what you can do to help the entrepreneurs that are listening or perhaps the exit and maybe a little bit of both. Ryan: Yeah well, there's one thing in particular that I think was on the stake if you will and it was thinking that the buyer had all of the control. By the way, this is C money right here or by a … my … he is the one who wants to make great on the Internet. Joe: For those listening and not watching somebody just walked into the background. Ryan: Yeah, so the mistake that I made was thinking that the buyer had all of the control. And if I could redo this Joe, the truth is if you built something, if you built a business you're the one with the asset. You're the one with the goods that money is chasing you, people want to buy you and so often the seller comes into market and is like the thing that I'm after is the check and I'm hoping that I get the check and that immediately puts you in the frame in which you're the after. You're the one who is not in the power position. So we share them with an offer and the seller is like thank you please oh please Mr. Money Pants I would like your money. And now they're in a position to beat you up over earnings, over … in the negotiations. So what I wish I had done was recognize the fact that I'm the one with the goods. I'm the one with the asset that people want. I'm the one courting the offers. People are making offers to me. There they want one I got not the other way around. So if you're in that position and you're willing to say no and you combine that with the turn ship that says here's what I'm looking for, that to me puts the seller in the frame of mind repair and the negotiating position. I didn't do that. I discovered that after the fact and I really could only have learned that by going through the process. I learned … I personally learned by making mistakes and paying for them later. Joe: We all do. Ryan: Yeah but that's a mistake that I wish somebody had told me before I went to market. Joe: Or is it … the buyer that you're referring to is it a strategic buyer or did you have your business officially listed and people came to you? Ryan: Yeah, we had it listed and we were acquired by an equity group. I still own a minority stake in that company and I'm in great terms with the equity group. I'm really happy with the buyer. I have become friends and obviously business partners at this point. But had I gone to the market with terms that I wanted I probably would have ended up in a more favorable financial position when it came to closing. Joe: Well, the next time you have a transaction you'll know that and you'll be able to make adjustments. Ryan: Right. Joe: Really I think like you said the check isn't the end all, it's more about … I think almost in many ways what your next adventure is going to be. I know that a lot of folks that I work with and myself included when I exited I was just … I sold too late. I was emotionally tired and I think that's the absolute wrong time to sell. You should sell … you should plan to sell, just don't wake up and decide to sell. But when you're emotionally tired you're not doing everything that you can to maximize the profits of the business and that's going to drive down the value. And you're going to get beat up at the end if you're so committed to that check that you can't negotiate a little bit more for something else and be willing to walk away from that buyer if they're if they're not a good buyer. And correct me if I'm wrong but just tell me how you think here, I always find that it makes an enormous difference if you like the person that's buying your business or the one … if you're buying a business from. It's not just about the check. It's not just about the money. It's the people you're doing business with. And I think that as a seller you can get more value if you're respected and professional and likable and the same as a buyer, if you're a buyer and you're professional and likable and complement the owner on the business that they built that you're going to get a better transaction out of it versus all the hard core raw street negotiations. What are your thoughts on that? Ryan: I don't know if you are right or wrong because I intentionally don't do business with people that I don't like. [crosstalk 00:15:45.7] Joe: So, therefore, anybody that wants to buy a business from you if you don't like them then you've got to do that to work with somebody you like. A classic- Ryan: I don't think everybody has that mentality though. I think I would even go as far as to say the majority of people are buying and selling based on numbers or like the deal and very few entrepreneurs get to find every purchase as a person. And so I think most people are approaching it by numbers and logically rather than is there a connection here. I personally … just like for the protection of my own lifestyle am willing to say no to anything that I personally don't like. And what that does is it always puts me in a strong negotiating position because if I don't like somebody I have no problem walking away. And the person who has … the person who is most willing to walk usually has the upper hand in the negotiation. Joe: I agree 100%. I find that from a buyer's perspective one of the questions I get a lot from buyers if I'm up on a panel or speaking or something like this is how do I negotiate up against an all cash buyer, somebody that's got more money than me? And the tried and true answer is really is be likeable. It's … you don't necessarily have to have more cash to get the deal done and I … the classic example is I sold a business last fall. It was about two and a $2.5M and the guy had two full price offers within the first 10 days. One was from an all cash buyer who was a little rough around the edges and was hard to work with. The other was from a really likable guy who was buying with an SBA loan and actually required 10% seller financing in that. The entrepreneur, the seller of this business had the choice; you could go for the all cash or you can go for the guy that he liked. He actually chose the full price SBA buyer and chose to carry a 10% seller note versus working with somebody that he didn't like. So in that situation, I think it makes a difference in terms of … buyers that are listening be likable. If you're working with a broker you absolutely have to be likeable because they're … as you said it's more of a seller's market. And there's a lot of buyers out there. There are buyers that are competing for that same business and when they're likeable they're going to build rapport and when you build rapport you sometimes learn about things before they hit the market as well. Ryan, talk to me about some of the mistakes you've made in your own business. Maybe two or three of the biggest mistakes that comes up at the top of your head. Looking back and learning damn I screwed that up if I ever do that again I'm going to it a different way. Ryan: Well, every time I've made a mistake it was because I was playing the short term. So when I have made short term decisions I usually make bad decisions. I like to say that the longer term that I can make decisions the wiser I am and the better decisions that I make. I said before that people forget that behind every purchase is a person … that goes for customers too and all relationships are long term relationships. Or the best relationships are long term relationships. So if you are aware that behind every transaction is a person and you play it like it's a long term relationship you end up building the better company. Sometimes in spite of a short term decision, meaning … for example as we're recording this there's a … in the Amazon there's a thing we're calling review gate where Amazon is coming in and hit them onto your businesses and removing their reviews. And it's been a bloodbath. It's been absolute bloodbath. And the people who are soaring through it are people who have been doing of the right things the right way for the longest. And the people who are being hurt the most are the people who are the most profitable over the last couple years because they played the tactic game. And like there's absolutely room for tactics inside of every business but those who have been building really solid brands and building audiences and building followings they're going to soar right through this and capture a whole heck of a lot of market share. So the mistakes that I made were always in saying what's the Band-Aid solution here rather than building for the long term. So we take a rule now in the business that we're building, we say okay here's the situation that we're in rather than talk about how we're going to fix it let's say what do we wish we had started doing 90 days ago and that would have made today a lot easier to get through? That's the decision that we need to make today which is a really hard conversation to have when you're in reaction mode. But we force ourselves to ask that question because it usually addresses whatever the root cause is that we need to fix rather than going for a Band-Aid solution. So that being mistake number one, mistake number two would be as a leader telling people what to do. There's a great book called Multipliers that really morphed my brain in terms of how I can affect [inaudible 00:20:52.9] people. And what I realize after reading that book was that I have been diminishing the talents on my teams by telling people what I wanted them to do rather than casting a vision and inviting people to build their piece of that. Now that seems kind of a nuance and maybe overly simplistic but I couldn't emphasize enough the accountability that this book brought me on how much I was diminishing the people that I was working with, And the difference in energy and growth that happened once I started correcting those issues. So as an entrepreneur, we often have like our baby that we're bringing in to our team and we're telling people how to build the baby when reality if we're working with smart people they'll probably own that area of expertise better than we can even if we can't see it. And the big distinction of that book highlights is someone who diminishes their team is usually the smartest person in the room but a real leader makes the rest of the team like they're the smartest person in the room. And that was a huge shift in my overall happiness and with the growth of my companies and it's something that I wished that I had done before I was building companies to sell them. Joe: What kind of staffing do you have just out of curiosity? Ryan: Well, the company that I just exited was a team of four. The portfolio of companies … of brands that I have is a team of five. And my media company capitalism.com is a team of six. Joe: And are all of those people in-house or do you do some … or the VA's are they working remotely or they come to the office every day? Ryan: I'm only counting in-house people so that does not count freelancers. But no not everybody … we have … there's, we are a distributed team. So like I'm recording this in my office right now, one of my team members is just right here my side. But people will come in and out. Some people … like we have a team member in Canada, we have a team member in Germany, but they're all full time dedicated to [inaudible 00:22:47.0]. Joe: Good. I asked that because you know most people that are listening would probably be considered lifestyle entrepreneurs and they have to outsource staff and VA's and people working remotely. So it's good to know that even though they're not coming into your office every day this is really important [inaudible 00:23:02.3] get their short term vision don't have that long term vision so that you don't have major major stomach aches with algorithm updates we'll review gates in that situation and then over managing of the staff you know let them be their experts; anything else that comes to mind? Ryan: As far as big mistakes that I've made … I mean we talked about the mistake in selling and as far as building the business I'll say I wished that I had spent more money on cold advertising. Like always like there's never been a business that was like ah you know I think I spent too much on advertising. I've only ever said I wish I'd spent more on advertising. Joe: Yeah, where would you have spent it because these are primarily Amazon based businesses correct? Ryan: The businesses that I personally built, yes. Joe: Right. So where would you spend that money? Ryan: So we just identified the problem because you said they were mostly Amazon based businesses so had I done things even better I would have doubled down on non-Amazon advertising. Because what … if you're an Amazon business which is like nails on a chalkboard to me because it means you're dependent on somebody else. Joe: Right. Ryan: It means that you're dependent on this channel and you've got to go double down on building a business has a different leg to the stool and that when you combine those things together magic can happen. If you've got an email list of 100,000 people that you've built from cold advertising or from buying tripwires and now you're combining that with the power of something like Amazon.com that's really really powerful. Most physical products sellers never make that [inaudible 00:24:32.6] or they get so myopic into one channel that they never spend the money and the time to go develop the advertising for another channel. I wish I had been comfortable losing my rear end on other advertising channels until I figured out those systems. It's interesting Joe, it's true that every channel you will lose for a while and then you figure out the systems and then you start to grow through it and you get profitable. The strange thing is that most people once they've figured it out and get profitable they're unwilling to go do that hard work in another area. So the way that Amazon worked in 2013, '14, and '15 was if you spend until you grab long enough you could outrank everybody else and go win but I never … I lost that hustle when it came down to Facebook Ads or influencers and people start looking for the immediate ROI. In what business is there immediate ROI? When you're building a long term brand that has sales potential … like buyers are buying the systems; they're buying profitable systems because you've already gone through that hard work of developing the systems that are profitable. But it requires you to go build them so I wish I had spent more on advertising, been more willing to lay it on the line, rolled more back into reinvestment. So I'll call that mistake number three. Joe: So for buyers and sellers that are listening, entrepreneurs that are listening it's that one legged stool, two legged stool, three legged stool. If you're 100% Amazon business it's riskier than if you also have a revenue channel from Google Ad Words and driving traffic to your Shopify store and you might be doing wholesale or B2B things of that nature but right away as I've said before if you've got a business that's just at within $100,000 in discretionary earnings that's 100% Amazon same business $100,000 in discretionary earnings but you've got 60% Amazon, 25% Shopify, I guess that would be 15% percent [inaudible 00:26:36.4] my math here, another percent of B2B that business on the other side is going to be worth 15 to 20% more. So you might be breaking even or losing a little bit of money on that land grab trying to grab more customers but if you can turn that into even the same discretionary earnings that business automatically is going to be worth 15 to 20% more because the buyers will pay more for a risk averse business that'll be around for the longer term so very very good advice. What channel would you go to first? Because there are so many options these days and building a channel off of Amazon is hard as you know. You've got to learn a whole new expertise. Where would you go first and what do most of your successful folks do? Ryan: Yeah and I'm actually going to cue on very creatively sidestepped this question because the obvious is Amazon. But where I would suggest is actually people double down on where the audience is. To me, this is the nut has to be cracked if their building a sellable company. And what that means to me it is for some people their audience hangs out following influencers. For other people that is they follow blogs or they have a blog where the audiences are already hanging out. Or some people they've got a Facebook where there's an audience. Now what most businesses, especially like a million dollar businesses, are doing is they're going channel first and trying to extract as much of it as possible. Like I'm going to go to Amazon try to rank and pull as much out of this pie as possible. Only a few people can win that game but if you switch it and you say where are my people who is the ideal buyer and where are they then the channel where you collect the order can always change. And that makes Shopify, Amazon, B2B a whole lot easier. The first nut that you have to crack isn't where the buyers hang out apart from the sales transaction and then you bring those buyers to the transaction. So the transaction to me … Amazon, easy no question. Put your product on Amazon the credit card is already there, people are already looking for it. No question, easy, done. The nut that needs to be cracked is what happens one step before that. And if there is … like if you don't have the influence, the list, the following, the traffic, the pay-per-click strategy that some way to go get those people and bring them into your ecosystem I think you are struggling from the get go and that's the primary question that I ask the entrepreneur. Joe: Yeah and I think depending upon as you say the product and what they're offering some of those different channels will make more sense. You know I had a conversation with someone this morning that has several brands and one brand has incredible numbers with email marketing and that same expertise applied to that different brand doesn't do as well. Ryan: Right. Joe: They're driving people to their Shopify store though Amazon keeps growing and out phasing everything else. So I understand identify where your customers hang out and then you've got to go find those customers. To own that list though you need to send them to your own store, not to Amazon. So are you sort of balancing between sending them to Amazon because it's all there or? Ryan: No, I just disagree. So I think that the loyalty to the brand is the customer experience. And you give the customer the ability to give you money wherever they are most comfortable making the purchase. I heard Brian Lee say where it's … Brian Lee is the founder of the Honest Company, the billion dollar brand with Jessica Alba, and I heard him say once that he considers it a win when the product is in the customer's home. That's when you've wo, not collecting it online e-commerce site, not getting into retail. It's when the product is in the customer's home. However, they get it and you want to release as little friction as possible getting the product into the customer's home. You will own the customer experience when you have their data. You have the ability to communicate a message in front of them. So if you've got the email list and you send them over to Amazon, Amazon rewards that and your conversion rate is probably going to be higher sending them to Amazon that sending them to your Shopify store. So there's a balance [inaudible 00:31:12.7] I know that I can get a higher immediate customer value sending them to my own web site because I can put them through upsells and cross sells to get their immediate data versus sending them to Amazon where I am going to have to work to get their data. I don't have any upsell experience. They might see a negative review. And so the entrepreneur is going to have to play the game of where the numbers make the most sense over the long term. But I think that the actual customer experience happens in when you communicate with them. And that's in the email message, that's in the outside of just a transaction, not just where their credit card is being added but words being communicated. Joe: Okay, I get and I'm just going to repeat it for those that are … well not smarter than me; let's put it that way. So it's capturing the customer information up front, building that relationship with them, and then simply send them to the place that they can buy the product and experience the brand with the least amount of friction and get it in their home. Ryan: Nailed it. Joe: Okay. Ryan: That's my opinion. Joe: And it all goes back I would say and it's kind of almost unspoken that the brand has to be pretty amazing so focus on that first. Build a great product, a great brand so they have a great experience and then do all that other stuff as well. Ryan: Yeah and let me address that because that often brings up the question how do I identify a brand? Like what exactly is the brand. And the brand is the way that trust is communicated to a very specific customer. Most Amazon sellers have no idea over their customers they know what their product is. If you know what you sell and not who you sell to you do not have a brand. Or you might have a brand but it's really lousy whereas if you know who the person is, it makes the product really really easy. I was just meeting with one of my team members today; we were expressing the frustration over one of our brands in our portfolio. Because when we acquired it, it sold a lot of product but it had no target market. And so we've had to do a lot of work to convert that brand into an actual brand where people are not just buying a product but they're buying something and it says about them sells. Those businesses last, product businesses don't because they're commodities. You forget about commodities and the minute that there's a better price or better customer experience their loyalty changes. But when you've got the brand people are very stingy with their trust. I want to give it to you, you have them for as long as you keep their trust. Joe: Very important message right there. Ryan, any thoughts in terms of whether someone should be building this business and always think about the future and possible exits; do you try to instill in them that they should know the value of their business in the event they wake up some day and want to move on or do you just focus on building that brand and when you're ready the time will come? Ryan: You know the real … the temptation for me is to say that no, you shouldn't be necessarily thinking about selling but I know that I'm in a different spot than everyone who's listening. So I would say if you are building this to make money, be building it to sell from day one. Because the very act of being in it for the money means that you will burn out, you will wake up and want to do something else. It's going to happen. So if that … and like let's just be real about it, if you're in it because of the payday, build it to sell because that's what you're in it for and the payday is the cherry at the end of the rainbow here. If you were in it because you've got a product you want to bring to the world then still develop the systems and processes that will keep you in the position to be in your zone of genius. And that will make you more sellable one day but I don't think it's necessary for you to know what it's worth or be making decisions based on that. So these are different goals. Now I build companies that I'm excited about and I am building them in the same way that we make something valuable because I want to be in a position where I'm just in my zone of genius. But it's a different mindset than if I'm building something because it's going to be profitable. Does that make sense Joe? Joe: Absolutely; excellent …excellent. Hey listen I know we're running out of time here I just want to say that last summer I was at the stock market conference and you got up and you spoke as did another dozen or so very very successful entrepreneurs. Each and every one of them had a PowerPoint presentation. You got up there with nothing. And you talked for an hour and the audience was captivated as was I. You have a gift thank you for sharing it. I appreciate it. Ryan: I just got goose bumps. Thank you so much, mate. I really appreciate it. Joe: How do more people get to experience that and listen to you and hear what you do share? Ryan: You know I'd love to answer that question, can I offer one more piece of advice before we go? Joe: You can offer a dozen more pieces of advice. Ryan: Wow, awesome. I'll leave it to one but if you are in this to please have a plan of what you're going to do with the money when you get it. Entrepreneurs are magicians. We remake things up here on thin air. We create value out of thin air. We create a bigger pie. We make money show up. And we also make things disappear. Joe: Isn't that true? Ryan: And if you do not have a plan of what you're going to do with the money it will slip through your fingers. I know you think you're the exception. I know you think all I have to do is invest this at 8% and I'm [inaudible 00:37:11.5]. I know you think that's how it's going to be. You will ball the money. I … right now I just heard you think “no I won't”, yes you will. So if you don't have a net for catching the money and allocating the money for your lifestyle you will be back in the grind very very quickly. I promise you, I know you don't believe me. I'm here to tell you that's the case. Have a plan for what to do with the money once you get the money. It's actually my favorite conversation to have. At some point, I'll probably have more chops [inaudible 00:37:45.3] about investing once you have a big windfall. But for now, it's like have a plan like a plan is better than no plan. And that plan would probably be best done after you sat on the money for about six months and you've gotten used to that money being in the bank account. Your second question or actually your only question was- Joe: Can I interrupt that? Ryan: Please. Joe: I definitely want to get to that but in terms of having the plan to exit, I'm always telling people look have your next adventure planned. Because entrepreneurs like you say they blow through the money, it goes through their hands like saying. I'm often saying maybe get that other opportunity started and launched long as it's not competing to get the ball rolling. So that you got some working capital maybe you're going to put it in … some of it you're not as bootstrapped although you'll be more successful probably if you are. Do you think maybe they should 100% focus on what they're doing on that brand before they sell it up until the day they sell or maybe when it gets big enough and good enough and they've done enough right they can take some of their attention and start Brand B while they're selling off Brand A? Ryan: Wow, Joe. The reason I'm saying wow is because my experience is pretty unique and that was I took about a week off and then I immediately went back to workaholism and it was the worst. It was a horrible experience. Now full disclose like at the same time I was going through separation and I'm going through a lot life changes. I threw myself into work right after the sale. I celebrated by reading books on my patio for like eight days and I was immediately back to workaholism. And I like … I roasted my body, I mean I so needed a break and I did not give myself that break. I don't know if every entrepreneur was as burnt out as I was. I was more burnt out than I [inaudible 00:39:40.5]. Joe: Most ideal [inaudible 00:39:42.8] they come to me tired, exhausted, ready to move on. Ryan: Joe, it's been over a year. I wouldn't even say I'm back now. You know I'm probably operating at 75% of capacity because I never really recovered. So should you go right back into it? I don't know. I think it depends on the level you're at and your own wiring. I make really good decisions when I'm relaxed and creative. I make terrible short term decisions when I'm stressed. And when I'm in that workaholic mode I'm a terrible entrepreneur. I wish I had just blissed out for like three months; I didn't. Joe: I don't know what the folks that listen to you every week would do if you would disappear for three months though. Ryan: Well here's the thing though Joe. I kind of did. Like my podcast sucked for like three months, three to six months and I was trying … like I'm sitting in front of mic trying to come up with things to say and I was uncreative as heck. So I sort of did disappear it was just a different way. And now I'm getting back to it and it's a completely different experience. But I actually think I did my listeners a disservice by not taking a break. And if have been just really upfront and be like guys I just got an eight figure check I am going to the beach and I will call you when I'm ready. My audience would've popped but instead, I was like operating from this place of like I'm so … oh my goodness I'm so tired and I turned off a lot of people. I know it's not the answer that you expected it's not the answer I expected to give you. Joe: No, I like it. Ryan: But I think it's true. Joe: I think sleep and rest and meditation or whatever it is to focus on is absolutely necessary. So back to that original question and you know finding out what they do with the money after they sell. How do they get more of Ryan Daniel Moran? How do they experience what that audience down at Smart Market and myself experienced where you just talked and everybody listened and took notes and all that? Ryan: Well, thanks so much, man, my media company is capitalism.com. My podcast is called Freedom Fast Lane. And I say things into a microphone and we hold events at capitalism.com that are specifically for entrepreneurs. And we're actually … we just rebooted the Freedom Fast Lane podcast. I feel as though- Joe: With fresh energy. Ryan: What's that? Joe: With fresh energy right? Ryan: Well yeah, I think you'd probably feel it from me. Five years ago I started this journey as a boy and I was … I just put everything I owned into my car, drove to Austin, Texas, started some new companies, I documented the whole experience from startup to sale. And then I kind of grew up while documenting the journey. And now there's a new journey and it's a much bigger one and so we just rebooted kind of the entire audience, the whole experience in the podcast. And my podcast is called Freedom Fast Lane. My company is capitalism.com. Joe: Okay. Well, I'll make sure those are in the show notes. I'd love to see you be more successful on this new adventure, this bigger journey. Ryan: Thank you. Joe: Let's stay in touch. I think I may see you at the capitalism conference at the end of August; let's see. At the very least we'll be to as many as we can be over the next few years. Ryan: Good to see you man, thank you so much for having me. Joe: Thanks for your time, I appreciate it. Links: Capitalism.com FreedomFastlane.com

So the big question is this, how do you become financially free in today's world where you can do what you love doing, spend time with the ones you love and provide for your family without being chained and selling your soul to a nine to five corporate America job without having to sacrifice going out to eat so you can pay off the debt faster. The question isn't, how do you save more? The question is, how do you make more without spending more time? That is the question and this podcast as the answers. My name is Ryan Enk and this is Cash Flow Dad Life Ryan: All right. What's up everybody? This is Ryan with cashflow dad life and I'm stoked today to bring to you the cash flow Ninja of the world right now, Brian page. And the reason I call them that is because he has made over $300,000 in just six months using a huge new real estate investment strategy in the short term rental market using AIRBNB's. Brian, are you there? Brian: Yes, I am. What's going on? I've never been called the cashflow Ninja before. Okay. Ryan: No, it kind of has a nice ring to it, doesn't, it does. Just remember you heard it from me first. I might have to, might have to copyright that Brian, but so he calls the strategy the BNB formula and basically what it is is you can get started with this on a shoestring budget even with very little money because you don't have to actually own the properties. You can make. Quit your job type of money in just a few months... You can automate the business to make it passive and work on just a laptop or a cell phone for just four hours a week or less. And you could get started with no credit. Did I miss anything there? Brian: Yeah, no, it sounds too good to be true. I'll have to have to preface it because it sounds, it does sound amazing, but um, but I, I, yeah, basically what I've done is I've taught other people to do is, is pretty exciting. I'm very excited to talk about it. Ryan: And you've gotten some great results from a lot of the people that you've been teaching too. And that's kind of the premise of our podcast and our program is we want to provide people with passive income type opportunities so that they can be financially free. And that's one of the things that are really like about this is that you can kind of automate the business now. Nothing is entirely passive, but you've gotten it down to an art on how to basically minimize your time. So that is generally a passive business. Brian: Well, you want me to jump into it and kind of give the overview on what it is? Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. But real quick, how I kind of stumbled across this was a, I actually, because I'm a real estate investor, I see all these things in my facebook feed and uh, the BNB formula kind of popped up and I'm. And I thought that I was a pretty smart, right? So I bought this vacation rental property on the water in New Orleans is the $750,000 property and I got the owner to be the bank to me and he accepted $60,000 down, which is less than 10 percent. Uh, and it came fully furnished, so I just thought I was a genius and the first year I made $80,000 rental income in the short term rental market. So then I saw your thing pop up on the newsfeed on facebook and um, and so I went through, I watched the Webinar and end up getting the course and then I realized, wow, I'm a complete moron. I could have done this without putting $60,000 down. I could have just done this and you know, started cash flowing on it right away without that risk of ownership. And even if I wanted to be an owner, there's ways to do that --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/cashflow-dadlife/support

What are the different aspects needed to grow a sustainable business that is transferable and valuable? Today's episode is all about planning a successful strategic exit plan when selling your business.  Whether it be online, offline, or hybrid, how you lay the foundation for your business is the key to a smooth transaction even before you start the process of selling. We are talking with Ryan Tansom, a fellow podcaster, consultant, and successful business seller all about how he turned his sale into a springboard for helping others accomplish a great exit. Episode Highlights: How a strategic exit compare to a financial exit. Figure out how to align growth strategy with exit strategy in order to get what you want out of the deal while taking into account the financials, the company culture, and the potential legacy involved. When an offer comes to the table it is important to weigh all the variables. Think about any way that the buyer can do to add to his profitability. Show them all the things the things they can do and package it up for them. Network early and often with people who align their motives with yours. Make sure you know what the buyer's business continuity goals are. From knowing their goals you can come up with ways to fill their strategic plan. Understand the industry on both sides of the transaction so that you can design how the business can look for a strategic exit. Prepare early for the sale of a business so you don't get any nasty surprises during due diligence or negotiation. Ryan lays out the framework of a strategic sale. When strategic exits work and when they don't. Transcription Mark: Joe, how are you? Joe: I'm good, feeling old and tired but pretty good how about you? Mark: You are old and tired and I'm catching up quickly. Joe: But I'm not cold it's 63 in North Carolina today and you going to get snow this weekend right? Mark: Stop it, Stop it, by the time this episode airs it's going to be a beautiful year and I will no longer be recording episodes, I'll be outside enjoying it. Joe: Yes. I mean 36. Mark: Something like that, alright when we talks to people that want to sell their business, pretty common scenario, they're looking for a strategic exit or maybe they'll say, you know, we go to the whole valuation process and then they come back and then say “I've got a couple of companies of mine that might be really good fits to acquire the business right?” Nothing about strategic. I'm sure you get the pretty often on your side. Joe: Sure. Yes. Mark: Yeah, right. So strategic, how do you actually do them? Are they worth it? Do we actually get more money from them? That is the subject of today's interview. I sat down with Ryan Tansom. Ryan has his own podcast which we talk about a little bit, but he's got a really cool story, he and his dad were in business together in a traditional offline business. They are selling copiers and had all sorts of contracts there. And they went to the process of merging that company with another one. They first try to sell the company, and found out how difficult it was, then they spent some time retooling in and really planning their exit, and after they've retooled and planned their exit they were able to do a deal in just a few weeks. So his whole thing right now is to help people plan their exit and build value on the business at the same time, but I wanted to talk to him about how do you plan an exit if you want to do a strategic sale? Does that make sense? That you actually get more money from it and what are the chances that's going to happen? This is a fascinating conversation. Joe: Good. One thing that most people don't do, and that's plan their exit. They usually just wake up one day and decide, “I'm tired I want to sell the business I'm ready to move on, So you know I've talk to Ryan a number of times and I think He's life experience, what he went through  with his business with his father trying to sell finding, it was difficult and then actually putting a plan together and deciding, when he executed that plan and he'd sold the business very quickly and I think to a strategic buyer. He learned a lot and he's sharing that with people now. So It's nice that he's got the first hand experience in the sharing with people and I think he does a really good job at it. Mark: Yeah, and so in this we're going to talk about what do you need to do to get strategic exit setup and not surprisingly, it's a lot of the same stuff you have to do  if you're going to have a financial exit or a regular market type sale. Just take a little more upfront work and we talk about the chances of it actually happening. I also talk about how that it's not always the best thing. The very first business I sold went itself to a strategic exit. We ended going to a financial buyer because they actually got more money from it so we talk little about that as well. Well we get on into it because it's a lot good mini topics in this episode. Joe: Let's do it. Mark: Ryan, hey how are you? Ryan: Good Mark, how are you doing? Mark: Thanks for joining me. It's been a while since you and I met, well I think we're just talking about this a year and a half ago or something like at Caribou Coffee here in the Twin cities. Yeah you're local to me which I like. Ryan: I know we're local yet we're sitting here on video right? Mark: We should've done the very first podcast with [inaudible 0:03:58] and where he would have be like saddled up right next to me. Alright cool, well on our podcast we like to better a guest introduce him selves, probably because we're really lazy and don't like to do the upfront research but also because guest  do a better job at introducing themselves. So could you introduce yourself a little bit to our listeners? What is your story, what's your background and why are we talking. Ryan: Yeah, I appreciate it, I'm glad to be on the show I'm usually the one doing the interviewing so this is actually a lot of fun. So Ryan Tansom, my Dad and I had a family business kind of a little bit of backdrop back in 2014 we end up selling it. He grew it from the ground up, bought a semi [inaudible 0:04:32] of copiers in the mid 90's and ended up growing a very substantial business that I think we've topped for about 20 million and a hundred employees, and I joined the firm full time in financial crisis, and it was pretty much lot of all hands on deck for the seven years I was there. It was.. We realized that company was not sellable  because there's a private equity firm that was buying out platform companies in each marketplace, and we have the opportunity of potential to be one of those, and they passed on us so we spent pretty much in next 6 years, 7 years going. Okay what do we need to do to build a sellable business that either I buy it or we sell it to someone else we didn't really know what were options so we just roll up our sleeves and did a bunch of stuff. Build out the outsource, the IT. Remarketed ourselves, did a bunch of stuff, and then in 2014 ended up selling it to a local competitor here which the sale went very well financially, but we left a lot of money in the table from a lack of tax planning and some other deal structure that things we could done creatively, and then also we found out a strategic sale like that that there's a lot of redundancies, so I ended up having to fire a lot of my good friends, and family and the employees, so since then I've been in a mission to figure out how do you align your grow strategy with your exit strategies so that you will get what you want, regardless whether it's financial or you know, anything associated with your business that you know, whether it's legacy or culture, and stuff like that. Hopefully I sent too much but it's definitely the backdrop of why I'm doing what I'm doing. Mark: Alright so there's a lot that we can unpack here and we're going to have try to pick a branch and go with it, because I think there's a lot that we can unpack here. Business that you and your dad sold, this is more of a traditional offline business right? copier sales? Ryan: Yeah, where on we have15 sales representatives that were knocking on the doors and I wish we would have done something that would have been a hybrid, and we would have probably gone that direction, had we, continue grow on the business, but I think, you know, every offline businesses, which is what we were, has the opportunity to have the hybrid online stuff that a lot of that community that you're involved and I'm involved you know. Mark: Yeah, I think a lot of the online community is moving towards this more traditional business model, at least in the E-Com Space and you've seen it all. So in the and largest as company, because they do develop our staffs and in onboarding, customer service and all that. So similar to your stuff.. So I guess, let's talk first about the fact that you left money on the table, with your.. You spent six years trying to hammer the business industry, I think there's a discussion in there on it's own, like, how do you line your crawl strategies and your business strategies with an extra strategy, but I like to know a little more about the money on the table. A lot of times when we say people leave money on the table, that's because they have maximized the sale price of their business, but were there other areas where you've guys felt that you left money on the table? Ryan: You know, I think yeah, there's a lot of different variables in this, and you know, I've got a Podcast too. I've interviewed lots of entrepreneurs that have soul and I've tried to unpack this exact topic as well and there's the “Hey there's a price so I might want to give you 2 million dollars for your business” it doesn't mean that you're getting 2 million bucks because you're paying taxes, so there's the whole deal structure whether it's asset sales or stock sales, or how the deal structured from earn outs, from an SBA loan financing, whatever it is, you know, when someone starts courting you, whatever dollar amount is thrown out, there's a lot after the fact than what actually comes in your bank account. So whether that's a tax planning, the deal structure, you know, escrow all that kind of stuff, and then there's the maximize the value of the business, so there's kind of, two different key components to it. Mark: Yeah and I think, just by way of example, within online businesses, say that your [inaudible 0:08:10] corp, and somebody wants to buy your business for 5 million dollars. Great, and they're getting an SBA loan and everything looks good, but then you get to it and at the end of your purchase agreement there's this asset allocation agreement that's to how is this been allocated tax wise, and the buyer says “Well, we want to pay, out of 5 million, we want 1 million to be your salary for the next 2 years for consulting, that's part of the purchase price” well now that comes at ordinary income tax, cruise up your whole tax, percent tax situation.. Ryan: Because you know [inaudible 0:08:41]? Mark: Yeah, how much are you getting from that point, and you're from, for buyers trying to relegate towards income, makes sense because they can learn it off in a way, because they were going towards assets, it's a long period of times that they can make that of. So, there's a lot of, like you said there's a lot more complexities there, in terms of the deal structure. So let's talk about maximizing the value, the dollar amount. Did you feel like you guys left some money on the table with that? Ryan: No, actually we did as much as we could of, because our business naturally.. I got it appearing to what is the, honestly the best kind of business because we had contracts, that were locked in with reoccurring revenue, backed by bank financing, we've bundled them with maintenance, so like, if you want to buy, manage IT services with.. You know, bundle them with servers, firewalls, maintenance, copiers. I mean you'd be bundled in finances and then, it'll be 60 months typically and it'll be in.. It's as good as a mortgage, so when you're looking at what we did and what our industry.. It wasn't something that we were like geniuses or anything, either the whole industry, I've been gone that way and I think the whole industry was built of greedy sales people. In reality it was good as mortgages because you can't cancel. So, it didn't really matter when you think about a strategic sale like that, the relationships of the sales people, the admin, all the infrastructure was redundant. Because we can literally just take a bunch of paperwork and give it to someone else. And so what you're mitigating less on the sale on like the, EBITDA, multiples, because the cash flow is not the situation, it is your Han dinging over contracts. So I don't think there's anything we could have particularly done on that aspect to maximize the sale of the business, but the industry itself taught me, what, “we got lucky, is pretty much what it came to” versus “we could always use other business, where it might be, a 50 million dollar consulting company and there's nothing to sell besides a bunch of people”. So, I realized, after the facts that we got lucky and there's a lot of other ways to maximize the value of the business from the strategic operational side of it. And then it comes down to, we sold a couple of branches prior to selling the corporate headquarters, so the first time we sold our branch we got  about half the price because we didn't have preliminary due diligence done, they didn't trust us, we couldn't get the right documents and all these different things so there was technical stuff on that aspect that we, by that time we ended up selling, we knew what questions are coming at us and why. Mark: How did that impact the price the second time around? Ryan: Second time around when we ended up settled…  I mean we closed in 2 weeks. Mark: I know how. Ryan: Very substantial sale so average closing is, either we talk in months and months and months, either because, we came there with a package and said this is exactly what we have, here's our profitability, here's where every single dime goes in and out of the business, here's why, here's our, I mean employee contracts, customer contracts, lender contracts. I mean everything was just ready, versus the first time and we knew it was like, we're bumbling idiots. Didn't have any clue what they're asking and why. Mark: Yeah, we've created a very simple paradigm at Quiet Light Brokerage that we call the 4 pillars of value and that is, look at the risk of your business, the growth opportunities, how transferable it is and the last one would be in documentation. Now I think sometimes people take that documentation that light as to.. Well, it may not really make that much of a difference on the value of the business, it's just going to make it easier, actually makes a difference in the value of the business too. Ryan: 100% yup, I got people that I know, that I've interviewed and talked to, where their value actually went up by 30% because.. But with a click of a button, especially by drop box these days and software where you can, “Hey here's everything” A – you can get more buyers at the table quickly, if you can do that instead of having threads through all these documents, but, you end up as the seller end up guiding the process more than the buyers. Because in the marketplace 90.. No, plus % the time the buyers are coming in there and they're going to find every reason to discount that companies so they can  make in return.   Mark: Right! and on top of that it's risk right? So a buyer takes a little good in business with poor documentation, and they don't know what they don't know. And so they see that as being risky and they will discount an account for that risk as well on the purchase price, and you don't have your stuff together, you can't defend against it. Alright let's talk about strategic sales. Because you guys did a strategic sales and this is something that I find a lot of questions on. First let's talk about what was the difference between a strategic and a marketplace sale in your realm. Ryan: So it's my world it's every world right? So a strategic sale realm, let's start with the financial sale. The financial sale whether it's an ecommerce business or if it's a traditional business or whatever it is, someone's looking for a cash flow. What's transferable cash flow? So if I want to buy Quiet Light, if you guys are dropping a half a million bucks to the bottom line or whatever it is, I want to.. How transferable is that? So that's where the multiple EBITDA comes from. So, if I can buy that chas flow without having any risk that it's going to decline, and you apply a multiple which is how many years, what's my rate of return that I want,  3 years, 5 years, whatever it is, and the more transferable that is the higher the multiple goes up. So, I mean someone that's looking for cash flow as a lifestyle buyer, a private equity buyer, I would say that there's also strategic financial buyers which is someone that understands MNH extremely well and knows how to do this, that's kind of like a hybrid. So they're looking for cash flow and they're applying a rate of return based on the risk of the business and the asset. Then you and this strategic sale which I think is one of the funniest ones because every business owner, every entrepreneur that I sit down in front of, or I talk to, you know your business, you're intrigued better than anybody else out there, right? So you know who you'd partner with, where they collaborations with you, all these different things, and I don't want to say the multiples even they go out the window, but it's more of how fast, in terms of, if thinking of rate of return from 3 years to 5 years, or wherever the buying might be, and the rate of return is, how fast can we pay for that? So regardless of the EBITDA, now you're saying “okay well, are there complimentary products and services? Is there a cross pollination between customer list” Is there horizontal ways, there are vertical ways you guys can expand, and if you can think about everything in the terms of the buyer, the strategic buyer and what they would do with your business, you can literally model it out for them, how fast they can pay you for your company. Mark: Yeah, so this is great. I want to talk about this because we get this question, wow goodness, probably one out of every four or five people that contact us to sell. One of the very first things that they say is “Well I have a few companies of mine that might be a good fit for us” and they're thinking it in terms of that like strategic sale, they think it's going to be much more valuable to them and there is some truth to this the webhosting industry it's a classic example, webhosting, at the very first I sold working with Quiet Light Brokerage, first started Quiet Light Brokerage was a webhosting company, and webhosting company has a tons of roles because it has a bunch of user accounts that is on our servers and it's very easy to migrate that user accounts over to another server, keep the packages the same as really just paste and transfer it **** sometime **** and a monthly contract so it's really really easy without transfer overall stuffs, so like you said all of the expense profile of those companies you do really care about that because if I me acquiring a company I already have those expense profiles. I know what to cost me to host for 500 clients, so it will become a client count. Now when you're talking about strategic sale, like I said, there is not only to redundancies which you dea'lt with, first hand, it sound like,  in your sale redundancies where you have multiple sales people doing the same thing so you a lots of people go, but there is also the synergies of my crop up with one company that is a name in an industry right? Ryan: Right! And there's [inaudible 0:16:28]for us, it was, that we didn't sell telecom. It was the one thing in outsource, the IT in office technology that we didn't do, since okay, we got, you know, 2 or 3 thousand accounts, how many people can you sell telecom to? A lot, probably. So that is not guarantee in profit that they're going to make, but it makes a deal look better, you know, then you can make some basic assumptions or something like that, and then you know, cash or order discount on suppliers. We weren't taking advantage of that. So we start to think about any way. Going to that buyer and saying, here's all of the things that you can literally get packaging up for them, and you know, I think there's some people that you and I know in Rhodium, and why see that, the reason that they start on their family to start in the retail, wedding industry, they got online… well, weddings usually don't have repeat customers, you know there are couple every now and then.   Mark: Hopefully not.   Ryan: I usually do subscription services so, what are different ways that they can expand their products and services, because they have a crazy amount of volume that come through their doors every single year. Because they got a very good foothold in Minnesota here, but so it's their robes, it's their jewelry, it's there. Other things that they can sell them and they know the volume of their customers, so you know, yeah there's the sale or the purchase price and the profit but they're more looking at do I build it or I buy it? So they know how long it's going to take the opportunity cost of how long it's going to take to build it, screwing things up, all that kind of stuff. Mark: Right, alright so let's talk about how you would.. Let's say, we have a listener out there, they own a business and they're thinking, “I've really like a strategic sale just because my business is unique enough I think there will be enough benefit for maybe 3 or 4 companies that are sort of [inaudible 0:18:03]my industry. How would they want to go about preparing their business and thinking about that exit, a potential strategic sale. Ryan: That is a good question and I think you know this whole conundrum of exit planning and grow planning.. I believe that if entrepreneurs are running the business the way that they should and working on the business not in the business, and treating their business like an actual investment, then it is like, where are all the different options that I can sell to whenever and how fast can I [inaudible 0:18:29] so it's being ready no matter what. If you are in love and addicted to a girl then you're having a blast, great! But always be ready for industries that change, Google changes their algorithm, Facebook gets kind of a little bit a heat like they are right now, always preparing yourselves so that, the first and foremost is the due diligence, your docs, and knowing, and really cleaning up your financials because, if you can answer any kind of questions that even your friend would ask, the buyer is gone just, completely slam you down. So getting your house in order, the financials, and the due diligence is one thing, but then, thinking about, “Okay so these are going to be.. These five companies are companies that i can eventually sell to” Who are they and what, why and how will your decisions in the business affect where you're going. So for example if one of the companies is running and you know, he is an Amazon merchant or something or someone is running on Shopify, don't go build out a Magento, you know, spend 300 grand in Magento if someone that you're going to sell it to is doing Shopify. I mean, that's the same thing that we did. We spent 300 grand on an ERP's because 85% of the people on our industry had it. That's why we could close in 2 weeks. Knowing how you are spending the money and why in relationship to where you're going to sell, and again, so if you think about, if your service has complimentary service to just someone else. Don't go spent a bunch of money building out something that they have. Because you are not going to get a return so you're going to spend, your immediate cash flow, but then you're not going to get the attitude because they don't seem [inaudible 0:19:58] I think it's aligning where want to go and why and then also that strategic decisions that you are doing in between there. Mark: Yeah, alright I want actually bring a really basic level here, because the thing is important point to make special more talking about strategic sales. I think people get with the financial market sale where you take a look at the profitability of the company and you have Joe blow buyer come in who really isn't related to the industry. We all know that he wants to get return on that investment after 3 or 4 years, you'd see that investment come back in so it's pretty easy to apply a multiple. Sometimes when we're talking about strategic sales people come and go crazy and they start thinking, well, look at all the upside potential that is going to come about from this and so they start lowering their valuation expectations through the roof because sometimes strategic do get really high relative valuations of this realm to the financials, that said, I'm going to make a very basic statement here and I'm sure you'd agree. Strategic still need to see an ROI, right? They still need to see a return of investment. Yeah so, what you're saying is when you're building out your company, when you're really planning that exit and working on the company, think about the ROI that the potential buyer is going to have and don't build something that's going to super expensive for them to migrate it over, right? Ryan: Right and it's like, so how we went about it is, I want to know this business, I want to know why they should buy this business more than anybody else. So like, I want to know everything about their business, I want to know exactly what their marketing strategy is, what their profitability strategy is, I want to know their strategy just as well as they do, whether you can or not. Because then you can show exactly how you fill their strategic plan, based on what they're buying. Mark: Right, so let's talk about modeling a little bit. When you're talking about strategic sale in your case with your dad in your business, [inaudible 0:21:41] done in season staff and so, when you're looking at presenting the financial picture to potential acquiring company, how did you go about that? How did you pitch it as far as the ROI? Ryan: So, I had like literally our entire.. I mean we have cash list statement and we learned a lot first time, right? So I knew every single penny that went in our business and why, so we did some serious cash flow modeling so we had our whole P&L, and then we had the forecast of what was going on to the sales and the cost of goods, our profitability, and I hacked a bunch of stuff through it, and I said okay, and I buy GL code Mark.. Mark: Wow Ryan: We did a.. Yeah, I know. Because there's the, in the financial buy, there's the add backs, right? So, a hundred grand might be 300 grand on the value, whether it's being added to the value or not. So, usually in the financial buys, you want to take that off to increase your EBITDA, so that way it's applied to the multiple. But in this system the same thing were [inaudible 0:22:41] you don't need these people, you don't need these servers, you don't need these things because you already have them. So, that is all dropping to the bottom line which will then help them calculate the ROI's so, we just looked on them and say okay, here's how much of the expenses you can take out of this, with these assumptions and then move back and forth, you said, what we actually need these people, we need these things, and then you're just negotiating back and forth but it was not more in the add backs, it's more of understanding the redundancies and the strategic value behind this. So it's a similar exercise but, you know, and now comes actually kind of the same but it's more specifically to operations. Mark: Well on the key pieces I think, needs to be understood is you need to understand the industry and the business itself. We work for the financial, forex leads site, this was several years ago. And they were getting lots of leads that they were selling and they wanted to arrange a strategic sale to a forex broker. Because they knew that they were jittering these leads and so that the equation really became okay. We know how much we're getting paid out on their [inaudible 0:23:43] basis for these leads. But as a forex broker, here's where the dollar amount for the valid leads are, and now we can start modeling our what does this look like, how much revenue is this site really making, from a forex broker's standpoint and then the other value proposition there. Ryan: Yeah it's literally of about knowing both of the businesses and the industry as well as you possibly can. So you can just design exactly how it looks. And then you backing up numbers, you know, I'm just kind of making some other things up but like, you and I have talked and I think that was when you were on my show, we're talking about the hybrid of the online versus offline and so, if someone has literally the best data ever on their drip marketing, their automation in their online marketing and knows exactly the entire cost of acquisition of one wheel, and whether it's Facebook ads or Google ads, all of what the email mark and you say “here's how much all this stuff cost,” they can go in and if you're going to [inaudible 0:24:38] and sink that up with an offline business, like there's some huge power there because you know that they're not doing that potentially. So you can, there's just so many different ways to design that I guess. That's kind of the fun part. Mark: Yeah and the nice thing about strategic is that there's really, you have the ability to blow a traditional valuation out of the water, right? That's one of the big advantages. Transitions can also be a little bit easier because they already know the industry and so you don't run saying “here's how you do this little process that you should probably know anyways” it's a little easier to transition. When I talk to people about doing strategic, so I often tell them that I don't think it's a good idea for them. And the reason I say that is mainly because they're difficult to do if you haven't been preparing. How long do you think it takes to really prepare business for a strategic? Ryan: So I think maybe I'll go back with remarkable steps which is what's the order of operations I think you should do to do this correctly, right? So kind of the assumptions to repeat is beat your foundation setup, build your financials, build healthy business from recurring revenue, the clarity of all these different things, making sure you don't have a bunch of concentration in one client, all the typical ways of de-risking your business and if you're striving to make a healthy business like that then you'll have lots of options. So at the bare minimum, you should be able to sell to a financial buyer, so then called to 3 to 5 times multiple EBITDA. So you know that, financially going okay, if it's 200 grand, I know that I'm going to be getting 600 or a million. Whenever it might be, right? So I know that's how or that's my target. But with a strategic sale, you could completely blow it out of the water, but that's kind of like hunting. It's hunting for unicorns or really specific synergies so you mention 5 people, that's fantastic but, what if they don't want it? What if they're struggling? What if they don't have the money? Don't have the ability to get banked? All those different things. Those are things that you don't know and yes you should work towards them so I think, to answer your question, I don't know but really helps with that, it's like, we knew our buyer. Like  half of our employees has hog back and forth, you know, we're in the same industry trade associations so, I actually had taught the woman I interviewed yesterday at my show, she would have spent 2-3 years building and fostering those relationships, so those people could have been at the table. She didn't do that, so this is more of a relationship building, going in Rhodium Weekend, going to the YC Events, going to [inaudible 0:27:00] all these different things where people build relationships. And then what ends up happening is, I [inaudible 0:27:06] the bar over a napkin, and then you're back in the stuff. Mark: Yeah absolutely, that's actually normal when I [inaudible 0:27:13] people that want to do strategic is, if you want to know strategic, 2 or 3 years down the road, contact the companies now and don't say “Hey I want to sell to you” just contact and do that real networking stuff and get out there. Once they've become aware of your company, and you start to learn each other's companies, then you can sort of see that conversation for down the road. Ryan: And then you get out on their radar, right? Because you're not on their radar otherwise. So, there was actually a really interesting story that I heard Mark from one of the guys I interviewed in my Podcast, where he was at a trade association, he started talking one of the base competitors and he goes “Why don't you buy me?” and that's how he started and they started, you know, BS and then it went around and then the guy has said “You know what? Let's have a [inaudible 0:28:00] every 6 months call to see how you're doing” and these people literally told him exactly what to do, so they could buy him. Mark: That's great. Ryan: That was super unique, right? His name is Norm Brodsky, he wrote Street Smarts and he was a part of the small giants book, so he's on the cover of [inaudible 0:28:16] and a lot of exposure but like, I think the concept is very unique, because if you wanted to buy my business, why don't you just keep telling me what to do, and if everything works, I mean, like I said it's kind of a shooting for the starts, but I mean, you got really nothing to lose at that point especially if you don't need to sell. Mark: Yeah alright. So you said a couple of things a while ago, I think is a good foundation I have and this is a general advise, and feel free to disagree with it if you disagree with any of the advice that I typically give people and respect them on this. With strategic, yeah you can get the out of the water valuation sometimes. But it all starts with first making their business safe, financially viable business and in someone that you can sell in a financial market. You are dealing few buyers, this is probably the biggest obstacle to a strategic sale, you might have half  a dozen companies that can potentially acquire a business and the sake people make is they went in and say “I want to sell my business” then they called ABC company and ABC company's saying “Yeah we don't have a million dollars” or “You were not in our annual budget this year” or “Acquisitions were not in our plan for this year”. Ryan: Right, I'd pause you there for a second. They may have the money, but like, everybody's busy, right? So what if they're developing their own software or doing something else, they might just not have the physical time to integrate the two companies. Mark: Right. Yeah absolutely. So you need to have that relationship in place and it has to make sense as being a natural evolution. Kind of like a marriage, right? I mean.. Ryan: Yeah, totally. I mean, you're partnering up with someone. Mark: Yeah, and last thing I would say is, take a look to see if actually does make sense. That first company that is sold, in the webhosting space, I could've sold that very easily in a strategic sale, because there was so many strategic happening, we did a financial sale because we knew we're going to get more money. So, where you can often blow the top of the valuation with this strategic, it doesn't always happen that way. Sometimes financial actually does work a little bit better. Kind of a weird, odd case. Ryan: Sorry you're.. Mark: No, go ahead please. Ryan: I think the one thing to that people really need to think about, because you might blow the valuation off the charts, but I tell you what Mark, the reason why I do what I do now is because we got the financial target that we wanted to hit, I literally had to fire 60 of my friends and family. So if your culture in your employees and the clients.. You have to understand what's important here because in a strategic sale redundancies are huge. So, how will you stomached that afterwards? Like going and calling all of our employees in, they was way at 85 or something like that at that time and they only kept [inaudible 0:30:47] I mean like, that's literally the stomached ache. Are you going to be proud and happy about what you build? Is it just a financial target that's fine and you have people dispersed across the US and there's a lot of VA's and you're not orally loyal to them or if there's people that you care about, like they are role playing that strategic sale I think is extremely important so you can calibrate against all your options. Mark: That's a really, really good point. So what do you do now? What are you doing these days? after the sale, of course. Ryan: So other than being in the Podcast just like yourself, so, we have a company called GEXP Collaborative, so, it's Growth and Exit Planning collaborative, that's what it's stands for, and it took a lot of time, over the last for years.. Exit planning I think there's some negative [inaudible 0:31:33] to it because you might not want to sell right now, but it's literally both having a good business. So we combined the two which is growth and extra planning because it's like, we're talking about what are your plans and then how do you back in to all your strategic plans, they sell where you're trying to go with you options and I found some amazing people in the industry that have different disciplines because you got legal, finance, the front insurance, deal structures, you have the business brokers, you got all these people, and they all play a roll, and how do you back into that plan? So, if you kind of think, we're almost like a building, If you start a building you start with the budget and a blueprint, because you can't build a building without either of those, so the budget is your financial targets, where you want to go and why, so is there debt, net, the amount that you need or cash [inaudible 0:32:22] and what's the blueprint. So what are the five different strategic buyers and then you got the six financial purchase, timing, role, responsibility, and you're back and do it, so you can then hire the team [inaudible 0:32:34] so the growth next to planning that we do with the collaborative team is literally building the budget and a blueprint, and then actually coordinating the team like a general contractor because no one person can do all this stuff. I've been doing it non-stop day and day of four years, and I still couldn't single hand lay out to someone. Mark: Yeah, there's a lot involved with that.. now if somebody is listening to this, one of the misconception running to all the time, with clients that come to us and say I want to sell, I'm not really ready because I did not plan ahead maybe should've talked to somebody 2 or 3 years ago. We try to get people to talk to us, the brokers, a few years in advance. For you, you're focusing again on that growth as well so even if somebody isn't ever planning to sell, it still makes sense to talk about that growth. Ryan: Because the reality is you're going to do the best of your business at some point. I mean, there's people, like I work within this, the baby boomers, well they're going to die in your business but then what you're doing is you're working on the shares and the estate planning and dispersing the shares to employees, and to kids, and do trust, so he's going to sell his company, and you know what, he loves it, great! But then there's, build a business that has value and has cash flow and you de-risks then you can literally do whatever you want whenever you want. So yeah you're right it's coming ahead of time but then also knowing the people like you and building these relationships, you can't do this at the last second, you're going to leave money on the table, you're not going to be as happy with terms and conditions and so many times Mark, and I don't know if you see this, but a lot of people that are out there, and the people that are in aggressive growth path, they're all acquiring company so the out of the blue offers happen all the time. So whether it's PE firms or funds or other strategic buyers, and how do you know what to weigh that against if you don't have a plan? So you don't even know like how much I'm going to get? What terms? I mean, you're thinking on the fly and that usually doesn't go as well..   Mark: Right! The number of time I've heard from clients, get in to this process and say, “Man, I really wish I've contacted you a year ago” I mean it happens all the time, no one ever thinks about selling their business until they actually want to sell their business and I think what's really cool about what you're doing is you're focusing again not just the exit, you're focusing on growth. Because a good growth strategy is a good exit strategy they often go hand in hand. Ryan: You're back can do it. You know, I just have a little plug for you guys too, because we do not do what you do, and I think a lot of entrepreneurs, they really think, because they understand their business so well that they can sell their business by themselves, and “Oh my gosh” it's the first time you're going to do it and why.. Like every one of those professional should pay for themselves, it should be your return of investment, what to spend, because you know it's an emotional roller coaster first of all and it's like a 24/7 fire drill while you are in the process which is what your team does, right? so I think all the people, if you have the right advisors, and that's another reason left a lot of money on the table, is you need to have the right advisers. I mean it wasn't people that do it all they want, they do transactions, they understand the market, your industry, and so having the right team is crazy important. Mark: Yeah, alright could you plug as well if anyone listen to this and enjoys the Quiet Light podcasts, and hopefully you do if you've listened this long, Ryan's Podcast talks a lot about the same stuff, you talk a lot about selling, you talked to a lot of entrepreneur's who has sold their businesses before, and you go over a lot of the same material, but with a little bit of a difference spinned to it, really, really high quality content and another one, what was name of the Podcast where can they find it? Ryan: “Life after Business” Mark: Life after Business. Awesome! So we will link to it in the show notes on our Podcast page, we'll also link over the Ryan's website, and Ryan, anything else that you want us to link or to want to draw attention to, please feel free. Ryan: We got a resources tab just like you, you're my model right? So I guess I said year and a half ago, you put me in the right direction with the presence that I wanted online, so we got white papers, and resources and Podcasts and all that kind of stuff so. Mark: Awesome, so definitely check at his site and feel free to reach out to him, if you just want to talk, he's a good guy to talk to. You know I can talk all day about this stuff and someday we probably will. Thanks for coming I really appreciate it. Ryan: Yeah, had a blast Mark, Thanks! Mark: Alright. Links and Resources: www.gexpcollaborative.com Ryan's website Life after Business Podcast Ryan's podcast link

Ryan:No one better actually can describe those differences than you He Yang. Do tell me in your mind the difference between lingerie and underwear.He Yang：Oh! Actually it’s quite simple. A lingerie is definitely a piece of underwear but it is (fancier) usually come with (hefty’er ) price tag and underwear is just an undergarment. It’s more ( generic) term. Often it is a lot more economical and we were talking about today is that apparently high-end lingerie sales are outpacing China's generally downbeat luxury market, and there is a heating up competition between international centers and local rivals that are looking to go to this up market area. Yeah, for ladies it’s a bit of a paradox. On the one hand, we are spending more; On the other hand, we are complaining that the purchasing experience and the whole thing all together kinda sucks.Ryan:Oh, right! You know the reason why I ask you to define the two is because according to Mintel Group, US brand Victoria's Secret has opened more stores, and companies including Italy's ultra-luxury La Perla and Germany's Triumph are adding stores too to the 18 billion dollars industry lingerie markets specifically here in China. That’s doubled in five years. So people are really buying underwear apparently. The thing is I don’t think they are just buying underwear but they are buying lingerie and the difference is that seduction aspect of it. It’s underwear to be sexy, right?He Yang：Oh, yeah! That’s a pretty good way that you find I guess. Yes, there is one notion from the guy that think, you know, it’s sort of dressing up to please your lover. But I think there is more to it. I think when you dressing in nice lingerie or just nice underwear, fancy stuff the girl’s like, you know with thelaces and things. It makes you feel confident. It makes you feel sensual and it doesn’t have to always have to do with some guy.Ryan:But what part, I mean, like let’s look at the average amount of money. Do you think like women are going to Victoria’s Secrets to just buy everyday use underwear. Probably not. There is lot of wear there happens probably on that underwear. When they go, they probably and I know in the US, many guys do go with their girlfriends. Because they want their boyfriends’ opinion and I see no problem in that. It’s because the two people that are gonna be looking at them, you know, whatever about them. Those two people want to have a ( say in it) . I think there is nothing wrong with that.He Yang：I don’t think there is anything wrong with that, either. But Niu Honglin, what you think? Niu Honglin:Well, I’m trying to not jump in, but it’s like this is not the kind of conversation people usually have about.He Yang：Really? Let’s be friends. Let’s talk about her deepest desires.Niu Honglin:I can only assume that those couples that do not want purchase their lingerie together. It is possible that the girl trying to surprise her boyfriend. It is possible that she’s just buying it for her, like you said, it makes her happy. Maybe you like it, maybe you don’t like it. I don’t care. I think I look good in it, it’slike everyday clothes. It’s the same thing. Don’t make such a distinguish, just because it’s underwear. And maybe it is possible that the guy is shy. He doesn’t want to step into such store. There are so many possibilities.He Yang：En, interesting.Ryan:I will say that in the research we have done, guys, you know La Perla, never heard of this lingerie store. But apparently it’s a big one.He Yang：Oh, it’s really nice, really fancy.Ryan:I am not a big fan of Vitoria’s Secret and I think they are cool. Anyway, around 2000 yuan is how much one of their bras which price at. That’s apparently normal. So 300 hundred dollars, ladies, I feel for yeah. You know what, if you shopping at these stores for your guys. You need to be pulling money out of their pockets too. This is just as much as involving them. And you know, making, it’s good for your sex life in general. So make them have a say. Make them at least fork over some of these cash, cause 300 dollars dangh.He Yang：Yeah, that’s a lot of money. Ok, I like the last part of the argument. I should totally be involved in paying for that. But there’s also this other side that as a woman, I’m gonna share with the world today. That is girls. It is so important to get the right piece of underwear or lingerie. Because, ok, here is a problem actually. Cause a lot of Chinese girls, you don’t know what fits you well, you don’t know, you might not even know what your correct size is. I know a lot of our listeners are young and you should definitely go into one of the brick and morterstores that sell lingerie or underwear and have a professional (help you ), although that professional could be a Dama sometimes, so middle-aged lady. She can be very overly friendly sometimes, in truth, maybe, but you need her help. So figure out your right size and it will help you in life and you feel so confident and your posture is improved, so go for it ladies.

Heyang: Apparently, girls love shopping. But boys don't necessarily. Dragging a reluctant man with you can diminish the pleasure of shopping. It can be suffering for the man as well. A so-called "Husband storage" might be a solution to this dilemma as some shopping malls are offering the service right now here in China. Tell me a little bit more about storage of the man.Ryan: Absolutely, because we men are offended, ok? We are offended that you will store us and I am proposing girlfriends storage for when guys want to play video games with their buddies and the girlfriend doesn't want to play video games with the buddies, so you store your girlfriend somewhere.Bob: This is warfare. This is war of the sexes. You are breaking up before our eyes. Ryan: But let me talk about what is actually happening in the mall in Fuzhou that is getting famous online because a literally husband cloakroom. It's a place for men can sit down take a little rest, read books, look magazines, in charge mobile phone, free WiFi is available and so basically this is getting a lot of hype, some of the ladies really like this kind of romanticism of them being able to shop and not have their boyfriend trail behind me like "Are we done yet?" "Are we done?" And they can be as free as they want while the guy does his WiFi and whatever he wants to do in a room with other guys. Heyang: Yeah, Ryan, I cannot believe that you think this is girls just ditching their beloved significant other, and so she can enjoy her shopping. It's not about that at all. It's about thinking for your significant other. Do you honestly wanna be dragged around looking at shoes and dresses? We are sparing you time and honoring your wishes, so you can look at your phone which you really wanna do and not the pretty dress I'm right now.Ryan: You know what? I disagree. I would love to go around with my girlfriend in do shopping and tell her what I think looks good and have a say on maybe some of the wardrobes she picks. And at the same time, I'm realizing that guy at least in the relationship when you working the nine to five Monday through Friday. When you go out on the weekend, that's your time to spend time together, quality time and even when she's shopping and even when you are shopping, you can be talking and catching up on all these the gossip or whatever happening at work, just sharing those moments together that you don't get throughout the week. That's my personal view on it. I think it is kind of things promote and I was just talking to a friend about it the other day, promotes this kind of weird phenomenon that's happening now. You go to a restaurant, you see two, a couple sitting down and instead of enjoying each other's accompany, they are enjoying their mobile phone and they are doing things, they just eating in complete silence. When I see that, what I told my friends was why go out to dinner, why even being in a relationship. I feel like relationships are enjoying each other's accompany. I believe something like this promotes kind like "ok, I am done with you, I am gonna use like money and go buy stuff and when I need that, you can come to me and buy my stuff." Bob: I feel as I am intruding on a private argument, but going back to, I sort of want to know, do women really care what their husbands or boyfriends think of the dress that they are going to buy and do the men in those relationships, do they really have an opinion? I think this is the big problem. Is it worth having your husband or boyfriend with you while trying to buy something which is really crucial. Heyang: I'm so glad you ask that question, Bob.Ryan: Dang-it, Bob.Bob: I want more money, pay me!Heyang: I thought I was the one that's gonna get the extra cash after the show from Bob and now maybe the table has turned. Yes, that is a very valid question and look at the designers, there usually homosexual manner or women and these are the people understand what looks good on women. Bob: So you need to take your best gay friend with you.Heyang: If you have a gay bestie, then yeah, he is a god send gift to you and what about your straight boyfriend or husband? Do they understand fashion? Do they understand what looks good on woman? I have some serious doubts. So basically it depends on who you are dressing up for?Ryan: No, but we understand. I got chip in for my fellow guys out there. No, but we understand that we love you and we wanna spend time with you. Being a girlfriend and sometimes that means not with doing which you wanna do, in which case that could be the guy playing video games and the girl doing something like shopping. Relationship are give and takes and I think this kind promotes some weird compromises, spend time with your loved one, even when they are not doing something you necessarily are excited about. Suck it up!Bob: I think, can I put my psychology hat on here? Can I? Very serious. Do you think you like it? It's very me. I think that's, one of the problems here is why are people staying closely, so closely together? And it might be, because the lady in this relationship wants to keep on an eye on the man to make sure, you know, he may have gone to the husband cloakroom and he maybe playing video games, who knows? Ryan: They need had a camera system so you can watch your husband as you shop.Bob: You need to be able to monitor exactly where he is, because as soon as the lady goes to choose the dress, the husband's left the husband's cloakroom and he is going to do something more interesting.Ryan: That's enough out of you, Bob.Bob: I just know your secrets.Ryan: But might you know, one of the netizens say why would the boyfriends even, why would they just stay home and I take that step further. Why you are in a relationship? If you are not spending time together doing something she likes to do, then I think this is a serious problem in your relationship. She should be doing some of the things you're interested in, you should be doing somethings she is interested in. I think it's healthy compromise in a relationship. That's what I'm saying.Heyang: Yes, but you're sharing a life together, you're sharing a lifetime together, there's plenty of time to do stuff together.Bob: And choosing a dress can feel like a lifetime.Heyang: Says the man in the room and that's exactly why we wanna leave you in the storage or at home.Ryan: Jesus, low blow, low blow.Bob: That's it. You cross the line.Heyang: Oh, dear! Our wechat listeners have so much to say about this. There're a few guys that are saying I would love to be in that storage with wifi. And being dragged around when you need to tell the lady whether she looks good or not and they always look the same. Thank you guys for telling the truth.

On this week's episode, Andy and Bob start off by discussing Stephen Strasburg's new deal before an at-length discussion about swapping no-hitters for Cy Young Awards. Andy then talks about: the Pirates getting swept by the Cubs, David Freese getting a standing ovation from St. Louis fans, the return of Kang, Gregory Polanco's walk rate, and the Pirates' pitchers' slow starts and what this could mean for Jameson Taillon and Tyler Glasnow. Bob then discusses: the Tribe getting swept by the Phillies, Tyler Naquin getting optioned, Terry Francona only carrying three bench players, and Giovanny Urshella being named player of the week. The duo then discuss the Erie SeaWolves and their current and upcoming schedule before congratulating Dean Green as being named the Eastern League player of the week!

【特别感谢热心听友“Coco 鄢文琴”帮忙听写本篇文稿】He Yang: A global survey found its coffee and ketchup that holidaymakers consider their packing essentials, rather than flip flops and suntan lotion. It’s also showing that nearly 40 percent of Chinese mainland travellers pack instant noodles with them. Are you one of them? Guy’s, please tell me more about the survey and what’s up with bringing food from home when you are travelling?Ryan: Yeah, a survey of travellers from 29 countries and regions have revealed the top unexpected items each nationality takes abroad, ensuring that wherever they go they have a taste of home with them. The study are looked at, it was by a Spanish travel company, surveyed 7,500 people from around the world ensuring that a minimum of 250 locals had been interviewed for each country. Now, looking at these, I think, some of them are pretty silly. So, maybe if we have some French listeners you guys can clear this one up for me. But bringing cheese, 53 percent French people said they would bring either cheese or dairy products. Guys, don’t dairy products go bad like, how are you going to refrigerate that, that seems more a problem, more trouble than it is worth.Luo Yu: Cheese have gone through four fermentation processes already, so , it won’t decay. He Yang: It won’t to decay, but it will smell bad like baby diapers. And Chinese people tend to bring instant noodles, that doesn’t smell. But I don’t get it, if you are travelling, then aren’t you supposed to try the local food. That’s part of your travel experience. Why bring instant noodles?Ryan: Define travelling, what if I am going to my parents’ house on Spring festival and I want something to eat on the way, on the train. That makes sense!Luo Yu: And What if there was a long journey trip, like you take a train from Beijing to Urumqi. Right?He Yang: You guys are just ganging up to against me today, not giving me a chance. But as independent young women, I will stand firmly on my ground. That I’m saying travelling here means long distance as you are travelling to a different country probably go sightseeing. And why would you bring your home food?Ryan: No, no, specifically, I can’t answer that question, because I fill in the category of us Americans. In the study shows that Americans, we, tend to bring toilet paper and I’m all about that.Luo Yu: And condoms.Ryan: Oh, Godness, no, that’s totally false. He Yang: It’s fine if it’s true. You know, just do it safely.Ryan: Do it safely, that’s what we are saying. But as an American, it is, for us, is very hygienic oriented, which I totally agree with.Luo Yu: For us, it is very easy to understand, because, for one thing, we love to taste a little bit of food from home. And that’s why a lot of Xin Jiang people would carry loads of nans (nan bread) with them. You know, it’s very easy to preserve and not easy to get rotten or decayed. And people just love it, like people from Shanxi, Gansu or Ningxia. They have Guo kui. These like crusty and crunchy shells, but very tasty inside. So, it’s like people are a little bit nostalgic and they get used to the food already. So, that’s why we take with them.He Yang: Yeah, It just like South Koreans take kimchee with them. And whenever there having local food, maybe they want a little bit of something, that reminds them of home. But still, doesn’t that just defeat the purpose of travelling, you are going off a foreign country and I would still want to try the local staff.Ryan: I think it’s weird. Yeah, you should try the local staff but if it’s really bad, I won’t blame you for going to the MacDonald’s that’s probably that’s down the street, because it’s seems to be everywhere. But one thing I did say like I did like that 37 percent of Russians they bring playing cards, really smart. Playing cards are good.He Yang: Alright, I would like to finish today’s show with Han, our Wechat listener’s comments. He says: “I would definitely try instant noodles with local flavors, for example, kimchee noodles, if I visit South Korea or a bunch of other instant noodles with local flavor…Luo Yu: I love that advice.He Yang: It’s totally a genius.

7 AM - Ashley Dupre is prego; Congressman's "legitimate rape" comment; Christian Robey from the Media Research Center talks about the media bashing Paul Ryan; Obama and Mitt aren't talking about Afghanistan.