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In this episode of the Just Schools Podcast, Jon Eckert interviews Dustin Benac, co-founder of Baylor's Program for the Future Church. They discuss the connection between schools, churches, and communities in fostering flourishing environments. Benac shares insights on leadership that moves at the speed of trust, the power of belonging, and the importance of taking strategic risks. The conversation also highlights how collaboration and shared language can drive meaningful connections and create spaces where individuals and institutions thrive together. The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work. Be encouraged. Books Mentioned: Adaptive Church by Dustin D. Benac Belonging: The Science of Creating Connection and Bridging Divides by Geoffrey L. Cohen Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor E. Frankl Connect with us: Baylor MA in School Leadership EdD in K-12 Educational Leadership Jon Eckert LinkedIn Twitter: @eckertjon Center for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl   Transcript: Jon: Welcome back to the Just Schools podcast. Today we are here with Dustin Benac. Excited to have him here. He's a little different kind of guest than we usually have, so we're going to start with Dustin telling us a little bit what he does here at Baylor, and then we'll get into how it connects to what we do as educators. Dustin, welcome in. Dustin Benac: Thanks Jon. Thrilled to be here. Love what you guys do in the School of Ed. Jon: Can you tell us a little bit about what you do here at Baylor? We overlap some because we're interested in leadership, we're interested in education and institutions, but can you talk a little bit about what you do here? Dustin Benac: Absolutely. I am the director and co-founder of the Program for the Future Church. We are a research, resource and relationship hub that's devoted to engaging the complex and emerging challenges between current and emerging Christian leaders. We do that through curriculum. We do that through convenings or gatherings, and we do that through contextual research. And one of the things that we're seeing is that even as the church and our communities are changing in incredible and dramatic ways, there is a remarkable future and we're committed to supporting that and pursuing that together. Jon: Love that. My question for you, obviously we care deeply about the church. That's one of the primary institutions that really supports what goes on in our country and around the world. And we have the global flourishing study that's a partnership of Harvard and Baylor, looking at what flourishing looks like, and certainly churches and faith are a big part of that, but another big part of it is schools. Where do you see K-12 schools fitting into the work that you're doing? Dustin Benac: I think they are an essential aspect of the flourishing of our communities and the flourishing of churches. Because one of the things we see is that the faith formation of people who inhabit churches, particularly inhabit churches over their life course emerges in those first 10 to 12 years. That certainly happens in families, but that also happens in spaces well beyond families. Sunday school classrooms, camps, schools, after school programs, baseball fields, athletic fields, gyms, art rooms, all of those are spaces where people are being formed. And a flourishing church, particularly a flourishing future church requires flourishing generations. And then secondly, it requires connections across different communities of faith. We think about our work happening at the level of the system or the ecology where we think communities need thriving congregations. They also need thriving schools, they need thriving nonprofit sectors, they need thriving entrepreneurs and the health of those realities, those sectors will only contribute to the thriving of the local church. Jon: A lot of that focus on community because we don't do any of these things in isolation. And so as educators, we have this great role of walking alongside people as they become more of who they're created to be as we become more of who we're created to be in the work that we do as we are formed. My question for you especially is your vantage point largely focused on the church, but also then looking at the ecology, as you use your term, which I love that term as well. What does a healthy school look like in your opinion, either currently or in the future, or maybe those are the same thing, but what's it look like to you? Dustin Benac: I think there are several markers of a healthy school. One, I think healthy schools require healthy leadership, and that's one of the reasons I appreciate the work you and your colleagues do is you all are equipping, resourcing and engaging healthy leaders and supporting healthy leaders across the country. That's the first thing. I think the second thing is a connection to and commitment to place. One of the things I love about education is it's one of the increasingly few institutions that still have a geographic designation. We have ISDs that are connected to particular places. And schools are places that bring people from their surrounding community to a shared gathering. Third, I think healthy schools require a healthy balance of diversity and similarity. You have to have something that you have in common, which I think is the education of our children. And you also have to have environments where people gather around and from the various differences and particularities that they bring to these spaces. Third, you've got to have matters of trust, justice, equity. Schools are only as strong as the virtues that carry them, and our leaders are only as strong as the virtues that they possess, so you've got to have schools that are marked by integrity. And fifth and finally, I think a healthy school requires a hopeful vision for the future. We can't have a hopeful vision for our children if the leaders and the communities don't have a hopeful vision for the future. Jon: The country right now is somewhat polarized as we're in an election year and you hear a lot of things about separation of church and state. And a lot of times that comes into play in schools where what's allowed, what isn't allowed? In Oklahoma right now, there's mandated Bible teaching going on in public schools with a hope that that will lead to better virtue development. And that's getting a lot of push back and possibly not really being implemented because that's not been traditionally what's gone on in public schools in Oklahoma at least over the last several decades. I'm curious to have you talk a little bit about the way you think churches and schools can work together effectively, because we also have the model of churches coming in and reading with kids and providing tutoring with kids and afterschool programs and this kind of ecology that we're all in this together and that both schools and churches serve the community. Do you have any sense of what that might look like? Not in the church state, separation wars that are out there, but in we're all part of a community, leadership as service. How do we lead in a way that serves each member of the community well? Dustin Benac: Yep. I love that question. I think that's part of one of the things that gets me really hopeful about the future schools and the future of churches because I think there's opportunities for real partnership here. Just a quick anecdote, I found my way into this work after doing several years of research in the Pacific Northwest. And the Pacific Northwest is a context where there's a marginal position for religious organizations. They're on the edges of society, but there's also a real history of religious entrepreneurship, that people of faith are doing new things. Entrepreneurship is the water they swim in. And one of the things I saw there is that people of faith and churches in the Pacific Northwest, they found a way to exist on the margins of society in ways that are not anxious. They're not trying to reclaim power, they're just trying to be faithfully present. And I think that's the first step to find this meaningful partnership, is churches and people of faith can pursue meaningful partnerships with schools, public or private, not trying to control the content or control the outcome or set the table, but simply show up and be a good partner and be present. Second, that takes a lot of time. Jon: You're right. Dustin Benac: You can't just parachute in a community and expect change to happen. You've got to keep showing up. Go to the football games, go to the band concerts, show up, show up over and over and over again. And when you do that, you begin to, one, see the needs of the community and they might be different than what you think. And then secondly, you begin to earn trust. The third thing I say is be prepared to be surprised by the encounter. When I've shown up in spaces, when I've tried to be relationally, faithfully present, I go in expecting knowingly or unknowingly something from that connection. And I'm always surprised. And as a person of faith, I like to think that surprise is part of the gift of God. Jon: That's beautifully put. I would say I think it overlaps with our view of leadership in general, but I would go all the way back to teaching middle school students. You can't just hit middle school kids over the head with truth if you don't do it with love because they're not listening until they know that you love them and you show them that you love them by spending time with them when you're not contractually obligated to spend that time with them. And so it is that showing up. And I think that's true with adults that we lead and we work with the educators we serve all over the world. It does coming alongside listening first, being surprised by what we might learn, not coming in with solutions for people. We don't know the context. We come in with processes. We come in with ideas for improvement. We come in with networks of people that we connect. That's Eric Ellison's main job at the Center of School Leadership. He does that even on Baylor's campus for us. And so how do we do that better? Because ultimately in the time we're in now, I don't think anybody can be that superhero solo leader. We write a lot about collective leadership at the center and what that looks like to do the work that moves towards shared goals. You do a lot of work on collaborative leadership. What kind of leadership do you see working at Baylor in churches in the ecologies? What kind of leadership do you see working? What are some attributes of that that you're encouraged by as we move forward? Dustin Benac: There's several different attributes. One is it's leadership that moves at the speed of trust. Collective collaborative leadership is leadership that it can't be engineered, it can't be manufactured. It takes time and it moves at the speed of trust. The second thing is this type of leadership is leadership that's carried by shared language. And I think that's one of the values of a place like Baylor or a place like the Center for School Leadership is I think one of the things you all offer are some shared language. And that allows people to partner around shared work by using the shared language because we can't assume that we mean the same thing when we talk about community or education or formation or faith. You have to have shared language because that's the point of contact where the shared work begins. The third thing that I think is required is an ability to recognize and celebrate a diversity of leadership expressions. Leadership, particularly collaborative leadership, is carried by teams. In order to have a strong team, you need to have people who lead in different ways. In my book, Adaptive Church, I talk about this across six different modes of leading, leading as the caretaker, leading as the catalyst, leading as the connector convener, leading as the surveyor, leading as the champion, leading as the guide. An effective collaboration requires people and teams who have the diversity, the dexterity, and the variety of gifts to lead in different ways in order to respond the needs of their community. Jon: You talk about diversity, dexterity, and variety, and a lot of people will hear that, and say it sounds messy. Dustin Benac: It is. Jon: And my argument is leadership's always going to be messy. It's whether it's going to be messy on the front end or the back end. I'd much rather it be hashed out with diverse thinkers that bring this variety to what we do so that we better represent the communities we serve. If you're thinking in ecologies, you certainly can't, as a single person know what's going to work best for everyone in that ecosystem. That is just not going to be possible. But it takes time, which you already mentioned about relationships, but it also takes time to process things. But then at the back end, you have something that actually might work as opposed to you implementing something which churches do this all the time, "Oh, we got to grow attendance, we got to grow the budget. We got to do..." And so it just becomes this hamster wheel we jump on and then we're spinning off crazy. And in churches, you are burning human beings who get run over by that hamster wheel. Dustin Benac: That's exactly right. And I think it's important to make a difference between the messiness of shared and collaborative leadership and sloppiness because- Jon: Yes. That's a good point. Dustin Benac: ... we don't have an excuse for being sloppy. The responsibility of leadership requires that we do it as well as we can. And part of not being sloppy is having shared language, knowing your lane, and also having good and effective strategy. It's going to be messy, it's going to be improvisational. It's not going to turn out like you thought or hoped it would, but you can be purposeful, you can be intentional, you can be strategic, you can be patient. And when those ingredients are there, the outcome is oftentimes far better than we could ever hope or imagine. Jon: The sloppy piece is such a great point. I think in schools, we have oversold the idea of failing forward. We've taken this Silicon Valley idea that fail fast, fail forward. No one wants to fail. And so you don't take haphazard risks, that's sloppy. You take strategic risks and Chip and Dan Heath write that the promise of risk taking is not, I don't have the exact quote, but the promise of risk taking is not success. It's learning. All right. If success were always promised for taking risks, it wouldn't be a risk. And so ultimately, how do we take the right risks? How do we take them with the right people? How do we take them in the way that we're actually going to learn from them and then revise and improve? I've certainly taken many risks in my career where I'm like, "I'm never doing that again." That was just a flat mistake. But most of the time, whatever it is, I figure out ways that we can improve and do better the next time. And then that's where leadership is fun because you're constantly iterating and you know don't have to have it right the first time ever because we probably aren't. But it's like all we got to do is get better. And so I've quit talking about solutions because solutions sound too neat, sound too prepackaged. It's not about solutions. It's about improving, so if you are leading a dumpster fire, just put the fire out. You don't have to build the Taj Mahal yet. Get the dumpster fire out first. Dustin Benac: I love it. Jon: As we think about that, what's your greatest fear as you look ahead to churches and schools? What's the greatest fear you have right now? I know there are many fears out there. What would you say is the thing that keeps you up at night about churches and schools? Dustin Benac: You actually teed this up so well, Jon, because I think my greatest fear is that we wouldn't take the risk. I think we are in a moment of significant and dramatic change. The world is changing, the church is changing, how we gather is changing, what education looks like and feels like is changing. And that can be a moment of real anxiety and uncertainty. It can also be a real moment of opportunity. And my hope is that in this moment of incredible change, we will do the thoughtful, the strategic, maybe even the prayerful work of considering what are the risks that are ours to take and take them with other people. We don't have to take these risks alone, but I do think we are in a unique moment of time where there's things that we can do together that are going to build the structures, the schools, the churches that our children inhabit for a generation. And if we don't do that, I think we've missed an opportunity. Jon: That's well said. Before we jumped on, you mentioned a couple of books that you were reading, which I think tie into this fear and also to the hope that we can have. Would you mind sharing a couple of books? I always like for our listeners to get a couple of recommendations that might be useful that may or may not be part of a typical educator's reading list. But do you have a couple for us? Dustin Benac: Yeah. One of the very best books I read in the last year is a book by a Stanford psychologist, Geoffrey Cohen's Belonging, a brilliant book about the structure of connection and how to understand the need for belonging and also the strategies that can help us build cultures of belonging. Brilliant work, data-driven, translatable across cultures and across contexts, so, that's the first one. The second one is a book by Viktor Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning that is about his experience surviving a concentration camp and also his theory of purpose that emerged out of his work there as a clinical psychologist. And one of the things Frankl says is that those who survived, survived because they found purpose, even purpose in suffering. And it's precisely this purpose that gave them meaning and ultimately gave them a future hope that they could imagine. Even if the circumstances were such, that it was very unlikely that they would live to see that future hope, the purpose carried them forward and gave them a reason to live. Jon: Well, I like the way those two books fit together in that if we're going to belong, we have to have a purpose. Dustin Benac: Yes. Jon: And that's part of what we do. And when we have a purpose, we are willing to struggle well with each other. And ultimately that's where joy is found. It's not the freedom from the struggle, it's the fuel to struggle well. And our joy comes from something deeper than our circumstances because that's where happiness lies and certainly Viktor Frankl is not talking about happiness. He's talking about where purpose can lead to joy because there's a life of meaning. And we don't have wellbeing if we don't have a purpose. And so I think the belonging piece doesn't happen unless we can do that with others because we serve a relational God and we reflect that in the ways that we interact with each other. We don't thrive by ourselves. That just doesn't happen. Love those two books. You shared your greatest fear, not taking risks, so what's your greatest hope as you look ahead for schools and churches? Dustin Benac: That new connections will form? I think the future of schools, the future of the church is carried by the work we do together. And one of the things that gives me great hope is that in a time of isolation, in a time of polarization, in a time where so many people do not feel like they belong, new connections are being formed every day. And that gives me great hope. That gives me great hope for the work that we do in the program where people come through our events, come through our courses, come through our programs, and they come out saying, "I'm more connected with other people." That's my hope about Baylor, is we have incredible students who come through our classes, and they certainly leave with a degree, but they also leave with a lot of connections. And that's my hope for churches, is that churches are finding a way to be faithfully present right where they are that is simply holding out the space for connection. Connection with others, connections with themselves, and connection with God. Jon: And that's why it's such a blessing to be part of Christian Research One University where we can convene these things, create those connections across communities, study them, and try to amplify the good work that schools and churches are doing, because there's a lot of great work going on out there. We just don't always hear about it. And so how do we accelerate that? Well, let's bring people together. Let's do it together in a way that creates connection and joy and then amplify it. Dustin Benac: That's right. Jon: And so that's the blessing. Well, thank you for all you do at Baylor through this, the program for the Future Church. Thanks for being with us and always love allies like you at Baylor, so thanks for taking the time. Dustin Benac: Thanks, Jon. Thrilled to be here.

In this episode of the Just Schools Podcast, Jon Eckert interviews Joel Satterly, head of school at Westminster Academy in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. The discussion covers Joel's diverse career journey, from teaching in an inner-city middle school in Lexington, Kentucky, to leading various Christian schools across the United States. Joel emphasizes the importance of integrating academic rigor with faith formation, highlighting Westminster Academy's commitment to this philosophy since its founding. Additionally, the conversation explores the unique cultural diversity of Fort Lauderdale and how Westminster Academy reflects and benefits from this diversity. Joel notes the school's commitment to maintaining a size that allows for individualized attention and the significance of understanding and supporting each student as an individual. The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work. Be encouraged. Books Mentioned: Leadership by Henry Kissinger Connect with us: Baylor MA in School Leadership Jon Eckert LinkedIn Twitter: @eckertjon Center for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl       Transcript: Jon: Welcome back to Just Schools. Today we're here with Joel Satterly, head of school at Westminster Academy in Florida. Joel, great to have you with us. Joel Satterly: Thanks, Jon. Great to be here. Jon: Now, you've had quite an interesting career, so if you could just give us a quick travel through your career that got you to Westminster, that'd be a great place for us to start. Joel Satterly: Sure. Maybe I'm a little unique in there's some guys and women in this industry that have military background, which I do, but also have an MBA. Which is kind of interesting, and a theological doctorate of ministry. That from an educational side, it's kind of an interesting mix. My professional journey, I started like a lot of people teaching in a public school. I was in an inner city middle school in my hometown of Lexington, Kentucky. My job was to convince seventh graders who were poverty-stricken, that ancient world history mattered to their life, which was a great learning lab and I learned a ton. And through a whole series of events, wound up leaving that position and going to a growing Christian school, Lexington Christian Academy, where I taught and then moved into administration both at the junior high and high school level. And in 1999, I took my first head of school position in Rock Hill, South Carolina. I journeyed from Rock Hill to rural central Florida, a little place called Crystal River where the manatees live- Jon: Wow, nice. Joel Satterly: ...at a PCA church school there. A short stint outside Atlanta for a couple of years in another PCA church setting, and then up to Chicago where actually I think we met, Jon. Jon: That's right. Joel Satterly: When you were up there at Chicago Christian, a very old CSI Christian reform school system. And we have some mutual friends that are connected through that place. And then back down to Florida here, finishing my eighth year at Westminster Academy in Fort Lauderdale. Jon: Hey, well, you're definitely winning on the winters there. Joel Satterly: No doubt. Losing on the pizza though. Jon: Oh you are, but your body is grateful for that. I always say leaving Chicago was sad for me from what we get to eat, but it's probably added four or five years to life because everything I loved in Chicago was probably killing me. But the Chicago pizza is top on that list. So love the journey you have and I think the shaping of your military background, the MBA, teaching in public school and leading in so many different contexts in independent schools, that certainly enriches you. But I want to talk a little bit about Westminster Academy because I was able to be there a few months ago and meet a lot of your team and do some work there. But I'm really curious about the thread that you see going through Westminster Academy since its founding to where you are now and what makes it distinctive in the climate that you're in, there in Florida right now? Joel Satterly: Fort Lauderdale, I think, was made famous by the movie Where The Boys Are, which captured the whole idea of Florida spring break. Jon: Yeah, that's a thing. Joel Satterly: And for a long time, Fort Lauderdale was the place and then it moved I think other places. So people have an image of Fort Lauderdale through that in a lot of ways. And it's not too far from being wrong. It tends to be a very secular place, a place of some international flavor. It's a very mixed, culturally diverse part of the United States. It can be very affluent, but they're wide ranges of affluence and poverty in this area. Very transient. So it's kind of interesting. Westminster Academy was founded in 1971, birthed out of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church, which was one of the largest and first founders in the PCA. But one of the first very famous for the Coral Ridge hour back in the eighties that people might recall. And so Westminster was formed out of that. I like to joke, sometimes I say there are several great ironies that are true here. One is a Calvinist started evangelism explosion. D. James Kennedy, founding pastor at Coral Ridge started Evangelism explosion, which has had a huge influence in the world. One of the other great ironies is the school that he helped get started, and I think in those days they were pretty fundamentalist and pretty conservative, started at a horse track because there weren't permanent space anywhere. So it used to be a place where you don't dance because it could lead to card playing and awful things like that. Yet the school starts in a horse track. So God has a sense of humor about that, I think. But through all of that, I think there are a couple of things about Westminster that have been through puts for it that have guided it. One is a commitment to recognizing that academic rigor and faith formation are one in the same. And Christians should not settle for anything less than that. And a commitment to being excellent in how it goes about that. The other it would follow. And that was working to legitimize the Evangelical Christian Day School. Because I think Westminster, its founding was distinct from some of the other foundings of similar schools in the South in that it was founded away from desegregation and some of those other issues that may have fueled some of that. South Florida was kind of a different time in a different place, a different set of variables. So it's been a place that's cared about being legitimate, it's cared about advancing the kingdom and been very committed to putting deep roots in the community. Jon: Now you mentioned the diversity and the international flavor Lauderdale and the amazing group of community resources you have there. How do you see Westminster reflecting and benefiting from that? I think earlier you talked about it being kind of an organic process. Can you talk a little bit about that? Joel Satterly: Yeah, so this part of the country's interesting. There's an organic diversity that... I believe I recently read where Broward County is the most diverse county in the state of Florida now, which would make it one of the more diverse counties in areas in the United States. But it's a happy diversity. One that is complimentary. So it is not to say that there aren't some tensions from time to time, but generally speaking it's transient nature helps with that as well. But you just have, the entire world is here. You go to the beach and you can hear multiple languages being spoken on any given day, for example. So it means our student body is fairly diverse, particularly by Christian Day school standards, mainly because we admit the families that live in our local area. And even on the geographical part of Fort Lauderdale, all of it is diverse. So we don't have to work very hard at it. The challenge for us though is, like a lot of other people, is on the faculty and staff side. Figuring that part of the equation out. One of the other things that's kind of funny when people come to visit, when we talk about cultural diversity too, it's very localized. So we kind of joke that Spanish speaking folks, that's not diverse here. Jon: Right. Yeah, I totally understand that. I was just in South Carolina and I was in schools that were 95% African American. And we would call those diverse schools, but you're not seeing a ton of diversity in the same way you're saying for Spanish speakers in Florida, that's probably not going to be outside the norm. Joel Satterly: Right. It is interesting though. I haven't been here long enough yet to differentiate among the Caribbean Islands, but there are people that can. And so I don't want to downplay the cultural distinction because I do think that there are some deeply held... Like anywhere else human beings are what we are. So there are some deeply held pressures, but generally speaking, it's really a cool place to do this work because of that. Jon: Well, and that's where I think the diversity conversation sometimes gets derailed because we get into group and identity politics. And really each individual I described, I just mentioned the South Carolina schools that were 95% African-American. Within that, there are so many differences ethnically within those groups. Joel Satterly: Right. Jon: And the food, I always love the food culture. So I love going to places like Fort Lauderdale and I love Chicago for that and I love a lot of other cities because you can find so many variations on things. And I think we really lose out on the richness of what we do in education when we lose the trees for the forest. Joel Satterly: That's right. Jon: Even if I have three or four groups at my school, we're missing all the individuals there. So how do we make sure we see the tree that's inside that forest because there's so much richness there. So when we reduce diversity to groups, we're just missing the fact that you're not seeing the individual. And if we believe that our job as educators is to walk alongside kids to help them to become more of who they were created to be, you don't do that as a group. Joel Satterly: Right. Jon: You do that individually within a group and all of that is part of a relationship that you build, but it is with individuals. So I appreciate you saying that. What do you think Westminster does well in that regard to see, know and love each student? I mean, how many students do you have first of all? And then how do you ensure that each kid is seen, known and loved well, in a way that honors the calling that the school has? Joel Satterly: So we're a little over a thousand students, preschool through 12th grade. And one of the things that we're committed to is a size culture. Westminster really sees itself as between 1100 and 1200 student school maximum, complete maximum capacity, if every single kid fit exactly in the right grade that we needed them. You know how that works. Jon: Right. Joel Satterly: But we're about where we want to be size-wise, because at a certain size it's very difficult for students to be known and loved. There are realities of size. So that's a commitment that the school has had more recently. I think when it's founded, it was on a growth curve like everybody else. But I mean, I think over time it's learned that the value in having a very distinctive size culture. So that would be one. I wonder too, if COVID taught us something. I was just thinking when you're talking about being individual focused for a minute, for us at least, that COVID experience gave us a chance to figure out what is it we're supposed to be doing. And one of the takeaways we came out with is education is fundamentally a life on life endeavor. And because it is, that means there's certain things that we need to be in the same space with each other to accomplish. At least most effectively. So there's a commitment to that. There's a commitment to seeing students that way. A lot of schools talk about differentiating instruction and that sort of thing, and we take our hand at that. I think one of the reasons we had you come here and help us, talk to us, and Lynn Swanner and some others, is we want to get better at that and recognize that. But I think it's more of a posture of our faculty that they just do kids. They just get into their lives. And I was with a family last night, we were talking about taking a leadership role, a voluntary leadership role in our school. A very high level executive in South Florida. And the dad just got teary talking about what the different people in the school had meant for their family. And he started asking, tell me about that. And it's really just the gift of time. It's just really being intentional and saying, your child matters and we're going to figure it out. Jon: One of the things I liked about what you said earlier was that formation and excellence go hand in hand. So many times Christian schools have been maligned or fundamentalist schools of being anti-learning when in the end, at the end of the day, we're called to maximize the gifts we're given. Joel Satterly: Right. Jon: In studying the world, our place in the world, how things work, we're actually getting a better glimpse of God and how the world was put in this created order. So I really appreciate that perspective that you bring. And when you then couple that with seeing the individual and making sure that the goal is to not just get bigger, but it's to go deeper with each student so that he or she can go deeper in their formation and the excellence, and maximizing the gifts that they've been given. Not for self-actualization or a humanistic reason, but because they're created beings who we get the privilege of walking and helping them become more of that. That's the true blessing. And when you see that, that's what makes parents like the one you described tear up, because what a gift that is to families. Joel Satterly: And I think another part of that, with that, you're talking about the individual image bearer, is our commitment to worldview, jon. I mean, I think it bears out of our theological grounding and founding. But this idea of in worldview is such a trite word today, I realize and hate to even use it. But it is really significant in this particularly becoming more and more critical. So we actually talked with our students and our faculty about that topic around three questions that we try to frame. Who is God? What is the nature of man? And what do you do with freedom? And you can talk about what is the nature of man? You can talk around, well, what is the student like? What is the teacher? How do we deal with dignity? What do we do with the fallenness? And how do we figure all that out? And the issue of freedom might be the most pressing issue facing our high school age kids today. And helping them understand freedom in the context of how they were created and made is the ultimate freedom. And that's what gives us this fuel to have an of individual focus. Jon: Yeah. No, I appreciate that. We always wrap up with the lightning round. So I'm going to go through three or four questions here. And I'm curious about this first one. So these are always a word, phrase, or sentence. The first question is, what's the best book or one of the most memorable books you've read this past year? Joel Satterly: I think I would say Kissinger's book on leadership. Jon: Interesting. Joel Satterly: Simply it's a bunch of chapters around individual world leaders in the mid to late 20th century that some of them are a bit more obscure than others. Just fascinating. Jon: Love it. What do you see as the biggest challenge facing education currently in the US? Joel Satterly: How we define success. How do we think through, what does all that look like? Jon: So if that's the biggest challenge, what's your best piece of advice to school leaders as they think about defining success? Joel Satterly: Everybody can't get a trophy. Jon: Okay. Very good. All right. We don't celebrate mediocrity. Joel Satterly: Right. Jon: It's one of my favorite parts of the Incredibles when they lay into that. So, all right, good. And as you look ahead, what's your best hope for education in the US as you look ahead in the year ahead? Joel Satterly: It feels to me like we're on the precipice of some sort of spiritual revival in certain places. And so at least I see a renewed... And one of the things, I think that the culture swinging in certain directions for different times helps the people of God refocus and it just smells that way to me. I could be wrong, but it feels like there's a movement happening. I realize Aslan never sleeps, right? But it just feels different to me than it did say five or six years ago. Jon: Well, I hope you're right. And again, as we get to lead for joy through truth and love, that's the kind of movement that we want to see- Joel Satterly: Right. Jon: ... as we hopefully become more of who we're created to be so that we can be better conduits of that and not get in the way of what the Lord wants to do through us. So Joel, I appreciate your time and the work you do at Westminster. Thanks for taking the time to be with us today. Joel Satterly: My pleasure, jon. Thanks so much.  

In this episode of the Just Schools Podcast, Jill Anderson and Dr. Jon Eckert engage in conversation about the profound impact of educators and the importance of recognizing their contributions. Jon tells us inspiring anecdotes of teachers who have made a lasting difference in students' lives, reflecting on the transformative power of kindness and support in education. Jon recounts a personal experience from his own schooling, to emphasize the enduring influence of a compassionate teacher. They explore the crucial role of validation and collaboration between educators and parents in nurturing children's well-being and development. While acknowledging the challenges educators face, such as burnout and high expectations, they also highlight the resilience and hope inherent in the teaching profession. The dialogue focuses on the significance of prioritizing joy, growth, and meaningful connections in education, beyond mere academic success. Ultimately, the conversation stands as a heartfelt tribute to educators, celebrating their tireless dedication and profound impact on shaping young lives. To learn more, order Jon's book, Just Teaching: Feedback, Engagement, and Well-Being for Each Student.   The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.   Be encouraged. Connect with us: Baylor MA in School Leadership Baylor Doctorate in Education Jon Eckert: @eckertjon Center for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl Mentioned: The Anxious Generation: How the Great Rewiring of Childhood Is Causing an Epidemic of Mental Illness by Jonathan Haidt Bad Therapy: Why the Kids Aren't Growing Up by Abigail Shrier    Transcription: Jill: Hi, my name is Jill Anderson and I'm the director of the Center for School Leadership. Jon is with me here, and we're going to flip the script today, and I will be asking the questions. Jon has heard and experienced so many incredible stories from educators across the world. And so to celebrate the Teacher Appreciation Week, we wanted to share some of those stories to encourage and to inspire the good work that each of the educators out there are doing to help each student flourish. So we'll go ahead and get started with the first question. Can you share a story or two of an inspiring teacher? Jon: Yeah. So as we always talk about, we have the best job in education because this is what we do. We just go all over the world and find good things that are happening and try to highlight those, elevate those, and spread those ideas. And they're always built around human beings. And so these stories of cool things happening, I have a ton of those and we'll share them throughout the episode today. But I have to go all the way back to my first grade because that's now I guess about 43 years ago, that would be, that I was in first grade, and this is still as memorable as something that happened yesterday to me. And that's where the power of an educator comes in into the life of a student, where that educator comes alongside and helps that kid become more of who they're created to be. So this happened. The first part of it, it's not such a great teaching example, the second part is good, so stick with me. So I'm in art class. I love art. It's one of my favorite parts of the day. We're getting ready for Halloween, so we're making witches and so we're having to cut out the circle part of the head. And Mrs. Fleshy, the art teacher who've been doing it for quite a while and was a little grumpy, but she's been managing elementary kids in art for probably 30 years, so that could wear anybody down. But she's going around and passing out the scissors. And I don't know if people that are listening, if you're old enough to remember this, but left-handed scissors were always green-handled scissors. And so I knew I was left-handed, but I'd also been diagnosed with dyslexia. And so I had a really hard time knowing which hand was which. I had a hard time reversing words, you could put was and saw on top of each other. And I knew they were different, I couldn't tell you how. Six and nine, B and D they felt like they were invented by Satan just to confuse me. And so I get the scissors and she's watching me because I think she didn't believe I was left-handed. And I put them on my right hand. She's like, she snatched them from me. She's like, "Oh, you're not left-handed." And she gave me the silver-handled scissors. Jill: So sad. Jon: And I was like, "Ah, but I..." And she's moved on to the next person. And so then we're trying to cut out these circles. And if you remember the old scissors at least, if you had them on the wrong hand they did not cut. And so I'm sitting there so frustrated because I cannot get the scissors to cut the paper with my right hand, which I know I'm supposed to have on my right hand and I can't cut with my right. So I try on my left and then they really don't work. And so I start to cry because I'm that frustrated. And Mrs. Fleshy from the front of the room, she says to me, and I can still hear her, I can still smell her too actually, "Jon, if you're going to be disruptive, you need to just get out of class." I'm like, oh. So I go out of the class, I sit in the hallway and just tears are pouring down. And fifth graders are walking by me and sixth graders, and I'm just completely mortified but I can't stop. My first grade teacher, Ms. Thayer comes walking by and she's also been teaching for 30 years. I always say the best teachers in a building and the worst teachers in the building are typically the most veteran teachers, because they're either amazing and they have all that expertise or they're kind of just waiting for retirement. So you have that. So Ms. Thayer comes by and she sees me and she grabs me by my hand. And she takes me back to the room and we sit knee-to-knee in those little first grade chairs. And she asked me to tell her what happened. And so through those halting sobby breaths, I get out what happened? And she just looks at me and she says, "Mrs. Frischi shouldn't have done that to you." And then she gives me this big hug. And from then on I would run through a wall for that woman. And 43 years later, I still get chills thinking about the way she saw me, knew me and loved me in that moment just by breaking adult code saying, "Hey, that was wrong. And I know you weren't trying to be disruptive." And she gave me that hug and I was like, "Hey, I am forever loyal to you, Mrs. Thayer." So many other stories we see all around the world but I just thought I'd start with that one, because I don't think I've ever told that story very publicly. And so I was like, hey, Ms. Thayer needs to get honored wherever she's at now. I'm sure she's up in heaven at this point listening to this podcast. Jill: Yeah, I definitely had not heard that story, but that's such an amazing story to share it because of the validation, it's all it took. It was just to sit at your level and understand what you were going through and that was it. So it's not very hard to do, but it takes some time and thought to say, "Okay, I need to take a minute and see what this kid's going through." Jon: Exactly. Jill: So how can we celebrate teachers? Jon: So I think at the center, you're the director. It's great by the way having somebody else ask the questions because that's usually my role. So thank you for doing that. I think what we do is we just keep elevating the good work that's happening all over the place. There are amazing things happening that we see in the US. I've been to Australia, to England, I go to New Zealand this summer, and we're seeing amazing things happening with educators in public schools and private schools. And so just honoring the work of the profession and taking the time to listen and observe. I'll give you two quick examples where there's this reinforcing cycle of this relational component. That's where the hope always is, is in relationship. Teaching's one of the most human things we do. And so, I was in South Carolina last year. I was in a rural school and was in an early childhood classroom for at-risk kids and walked into this room and in the corner there's this tiny little wheelchair, which there's not much more depressing than a tiny wheelchair. And then a little guy who's less than 30 pounds laying on this mat, and he was just recovering from a seizure. And so he was really exhausted. He's trying to make eye contact with this teacher and he's making this noise. He's not verbal and he's making this noise, and you can tell he just wants the teacher's attention. And she's working with a small group of kids in the other corner. And she notices and she goes over and she just scoops him up, gives him a big hug, his head is on her shoulder and he's looking at me and he is so happy. And so the teacher just kind of offhandedly looks at me and she said, "Hey, sometimes we just need some snuggles." And that kid in that moment was seen, known and loved in that really simple way. And so I've given you a first grade example. I've given you an early childhood example. I want to jump ahead to validating what a high school teacher did. So she's got seniors, I'm not sure, I think she was either an English or a history teacher. And she was sharing this story at one of our professional learning sessions that we were doing last year. And she was recounting the fact that the office had called down to her room to let her know that her father had fallen and had a brain bleed they thought. And she needed to get to him as soon as possible. And so her students that were with her, they heard this because it came through. And before they would let her go, they all got around her and put hands on her and prayed for her before they would let her leave to go be with her father. Jill: That's so amazing. Jon: So that loving relationship, that part that we do it's not just a one way street. That comes back to us. It's not why we love kids so that they will love us back and it's not our job to be their friends, but when we see them, know them and love them, that gets reciprocated for us in a way that's just truly life-giving. So I think anytime we can find those life-giving things and lean into those and then elevate those to let people know all the amazing things that are happening in schools. We hear all the negative stuff because media has a negativity bias to it. But there are amazing things happening in classrooms all over the place. And so how do we see those relationships and the way kids are becoming more of who they're created to be because of the work that's going on in the classroom? Jill: Yeah, absolutely. Those are great stories to be able to share. So on that note, how do we bring more joy to the profession? Jon: So I think part of it is celebrating the right things. So when we think about joy or wellbeing or flourishing, sometimes people think of that as meaning freedom from struggle. And that's not what it is. To me, joy isn't circumstantial. Joy is in this deep abiding hope that there is more. And that joy isn't freedom from struggle but it's the freedom to struggle well. So how do we help educators see what they're doing in the lives of students that allows them to have the energy and fuel to do more? What does that look like for them? And then how do we celebrate that, because I think we've oversold wellbeing over the last few years that like, "Okay, that's really hard for you. You don't have to do that right now." And when we do that, that robs kids of the joy that comes from doing something that they didn't think they could do. And then they do it and they do it well, and there's great joy in that. So if we rob kids the opportunity to struggle, we also rob them of the opportunity to have joy. And so if we think about happiness as being something that we want kids to always feel happy, they're not going to grow very much. And we know all the way back to Vygotsky's own approximate development, the distance between what you can do on your own and what you can do with assistants where you push and stretch is where learning is. So learning is productive struggle. So how do we build that in without making it be a burnout thing? And we don't avoid burnout by getting Jeans day on Friday. That's nice. But where we really find meaning and joy is in celebrating the growth that we see. So if you want an educator to stay in education, help them see what's happening in my view as a Christian that the Lord is doing through them in the lives of a student. That's what gets you up in the morning, how do we keep seeing that and keep building on that. Jill: Absolutely. So you've talked a lot about using the phrase just a teacher. Can you talk a little bit about that, how we avoid using it as just a teacher and how we can switch that around to just teaching? Jon: Yeah. So the book Just Teaching, Feedback, Inclusion and Well-being for Each Student, plays on that phrase that, oh, I'm just a teacher, or, oh, they're just a teacher. And as educators we 100% have to stop referring to ourselves as just a teacher. Education is the profession that makes all others possible. There is great power in that role, and everyone has experienced this. If they've had a good teacher or their child has had a good teacher, the difference that makes. There is huge power in that. And we steal ourselves, we rob ourselves of that when we refer to ourselves as just a teacher. And so when we talk about just teachers, we're talking about teachers that teach for justice and flourishing by making sure each kid is seen, known and loved. And you do that by making sure they're well, that they're engaged and they get feedback. That we give them the opportunity to stretch. It's not to work ourselves into oblivion. It's not just continuing to add more and more to our plates. I think in some places burnout has become a badge of honor and educators think everything requires the extra mile. That's not it. How do we put the work on students that allows them to do the work that will allow them to flourish? And we take the work that's ours, but our job is to coach them through that, not do it for them. Jill: Exactly. Yeah, and even as a parent, I'm not a teacher, I haven't been a teacher, but as a parent I can see that in my own kids. And it's so hard to watch them go through that struggle, but once they get to the other side you're like, okay, this is a good thing that I did to help them grow in that area. Jon: Yeah. Well, we all know nobody wants to be stretched. It's no fun to be, but we all appreciate the benefit of the stretching on the back end. Jill: Yeah, absolutely. So speaking of being a parent, how as a parent can we support teachers in the best way? Jon: Well, I think we need to view our role as teachers, I'll start there, as being a partner of the parent and helping that kid flourish because regardless, in my view there are parents that do bad things for kids. But no parent wants to do things that harm their kid. They care about that kid more than anything else on earth. And sometimes as a teacher you sometimes scratch your head, well, I don't know why we're doing that. And parent-teacher conferences are always this eye-opening moment of, I can't believe that kid gets to school every day because of some of the stuff that goes on. But 95% of parents want what's best for kids. And I would say teachers are there too, nobody really goes into teaching because they want to harm kids. That's not a thing. So if we can keep our child the focus of the interaction and not get on the defensive as teachers or parents about hey... Because it's sometimes hard, especially if parents didn't have great experiences in schools, it's hard for them to come back into school and hear feedback that feels critical because it feels like they're being judged as a parent. And nobody wants to be judged or evaluated, we all want to get better. So how do we make getting better for the kid be our joint mission as parents and educators? And I think I'll go back to the joy piece, if we want our kids to experience joy and be the kind of human beings we want them to be, then we have to give them opportunity to struggle well. How can they stretch? And so that's where parents and educators can be great partners in that, what's the extracurricular activity that you need to really shine? You're not great in math, great, work harder at math. You can't just not do that. You're going go- Jill: Not do it, yeah. Jon: But then, oh, you really love art. Well, lean into art. What can you do there? You don't do art instead of math. You want to be a well-rounded human being that does it. The other thing I would encourage parents to do and this'll come into, I think you'll probably ask me for a book recommendation at some point, but as you think about who your kid's becoming, don't try to parent and engineer all of the pain out of their lives. You can't do it. Jill: That's good. Jon: You can't do it. And so how do you put those guardrails on where they know you're safe, they know that they are loved and nothing they do will change that love. However, some things they do may change how much they please you. So it's not like everything you do is fine. We just love you. You're all great. No, you can make some bad decisions that I am not going to be pleased about and I'm going to tell you. And here is wisdom from an adult who's been through all these things too, and here are some thoughts. And so the one place when I said that I was like, we really have to be smart with smartphones and social media. That is an introduced thing that didn't affect us as parents, and I'm so grateful I didn't have it. That world that's introduced there, the more as parents we can partner with schools to figure out the best ways to use technology. And how to create some freedom from it because it is oppressive. And no matter how much we think we're training them how to use it, adults aren't good at using their smartphones. Jill: I definitely am not either. I have to use the focus feature to be able to avoid it when I'm trying to do work. Jon: Right. If you've caught yourself, and I know I've done it when you and I have been talking, if you catch yourself talking to someone who's an embodied human being right in front of you and you get a buzz on your phone and you're paying attention to that, what are we doing? We're saying that's more important than this human being. So if adults are doing that, we really need to think through what that's like for people with underdeveloped frontal cortexes that allow them to discipline themselves with it. And so I think we really need to be thoughtful about that as parents, how can we do that in a way that allow our kids to really enjoy being with each other and figure out how to navigate life with other people? Jill: Yeah, absolutely. And I was going to ask you about book recommendations. I feel like you're leading into Anxious Generation. Is that the one that you were going to talk about? Jon: Well, we've been talking about... I just read that book last week by Jonathan Haidt, and I've been citing his article in the Atlantic from last summer about schools should ban smartphones, like hard stop ban smartphones. He also has the recommendation that anybody under the age that's not in high school should not have a smartphone, flip phones. Other ways to communicate fine, but no smartphones till high school and no social media until you're 16. And it's really hard to disagree with that. From what I've seen, I feel like kids are so much freer when they have that. And he gives an example in his book about his six-year-old daughter who's on her iPad, and she can't figure out what's going on that there are engineers in a multi-billion dollar industry whose job is to keep her paying attention to the iPad no matter what, because the kid is the product. That's what they're selling to advertisers, that's what they're selling. And she says to her dad, "Dad, can you take this away from me? I can't get my eyes off of it." Jill: Wow, that's really powerful. Jon: Yeah, and so I think that's really where we're. So The Anxious Generation, he has a lot of reasons why we're anxious. It's not just smartphone's bad, it's smartphones disrupt and stunt development for kids because we're not having the human interactions, everything's mediated through social media which is not real. So instead of looking, when I grew up in the '70s and '80s, especially for girls, you walk by the checkout at the grocery store and you see these models that are airbrushed and they look perfect and all this. Now, girls go on and they see that and these are their competition at school, and it's not real but it feels real. And so they curate their lives to look like something they're not, which just breeds all kinds of anxiety because it's not an embodied interaction. They're saying, "Oh yeah, I know that person. That person's like this. They're not like they're real or what it looks like on Instagram." So it's devastating. And then for boys, it's less the social media, it's more the gaming and the pornography that kids are finding at ages 10 and 11 where it's just wide open for them. Jill: So young, yeah. Jon: And again, there are features that are meant to try to limit it but if you can put in a fake birthday, you can get to just about anything. And so there's a lot of responsibility in technology, but I don't see them making a change because the incentives aren't there for them to change. I think as parents, we have to be the parents and say, "Hey, collectively, we're not going to do this." Because if you're the only parent doing it, that's really hard. And in the book, he suggests that get 10 families together that are going to commit to this, that we're not going to jump on this boat of social media, early smartphones all the time. And I think as schools, we have to make the hard decision to say, "Hey, for eight hours a day we're giving you a break from these" and not just don't have them out, because that becomes really hard to enforce in schools. It's these get turned into a pouch that's locked for the day, or these go into a smartphone locker for the day and then you get them at the end of the day. And parents, I would just encourage you to support your schools if they do that. A lot of parents are fighting it because you want immediate access to your kids. You have it, call the office. There are adults charged with taking care of your kid. Trust them to do that. If you trust them for eight hours a day, you can trust them to get an important message to your kid. Jill: Right. I've seen the attitude change just with my own kids. I have an 11-year-old, and so she recently got in trouble and got her phone taken away for a week. And she was an amazing kid. She's creative, she was drawing, she was involved in conversations, engaging, and then she got her phone back and we're like, Where did Bella go? Look, we haven't seen her." So it totally changes who they are. So yeah, I've seen it myself. So what advice would you give educators out there? Jon: So you've already picked up on some of it, so I'll just try to sum it up into a sound bite. Lean into joy, but don't think of joy as being lacking struggle. Where are you seeing growth in yourself as an educator? Where are you seeing growth in your classroom? Lean into that, celebrate that, that's where joy is. And so even when you talk about smartphones, it's not banning something. It's inviting kids into deeper engagement, into that human... When kids get to a camp and they don't have phones for a week and they get to try new things and get to be with other people like, oh, this is great. It's like the veil has come off, the haze that they're in is gone. It's like, oh, they look around there's this amazing world and these amazing people. And so I think we need the same thing for our classrooms. We need to lean into really why we got into teaching in the first place, and that's to help other people grow and become more of who they're created to be. Jill: Yeah, absolutely. So on the flip side, what would be the worst advice that you've heard? Jon: This is hard to say. I got an article out called The Wellbeing Myth, and I think we have oversold wellbeing. And I think it's bad advice to say that kids can't learn if you don't make sure everything's okay. I think we need to focus less on some of those, even the SEL stuff, social emotional learning pieces have been oversold. It's like do hard things together, that works. There was another line, this again goes back to Haidt's book, it maybe Haidt's book or it may be Bad Therapy. I've got two books now coming together in my head. But that parents, adults, or whatever, can help kids learn how to make friends. The way you learn how to make friends is you try to make friends. And it's great to have somebody that you can talk to, "Hey, I tried this and this didn't work very well and whatever." But there's not a recipe for making friends. Okay, be kind, do unto others as you want them doing to you. There's some basic principles. But you know how kids learn those? By trying to do it. So I think teachers and parents, I think sometimes we need to step back a little bit and let kids play more and try stuff more. The average kid in elementary school in the US right now gets 27 minutes a day of recess. That is tragic. That was the height of my day. I would go home with my basketball and kickball stats every day for my three recesses. I look back and I was like, recess was the greatest thing ever. And I might've learned more at recess than I did in the classroom about how to interact with human beings. So like, hey, step back. Give them some space. That's wellbeing. So worry more about the virtual world and worry less about the real world. Let the kids... Haidt has this great line, let them get bruises, not scars. Jill: I love that. That's really great. So what would you say is one of the biggest challenges that you see for educators in the year ahead? Jon: We have a really hard job as educators because so much is expected of educators. Every policy decision, every government action is like, we'll do this through schools because there are schools in every community. So more and more it gets layered on top of educators all the time. And it makes sense from a policy perspective. It's like you have a beach head into every neighborhood, but educators can't do everything. And when we try, we don't do any of it very well and we end up burned out. And so we are seeing amazing educators leave the profession and other people not wanting to go into the profession because teachers aren't making education look like a very appealing job, even though it's the greatest job ever. It doesn't look like that to students. And so that's a challenge and it's a vicious cycle that's continuing. So much is asked, I burn out, it doesn't look like an appealing profession and that's a challenge. Jill: Absolutely. So I want to end on a positive note, what's the thing that makes you the most optimistic as you look ahead? Jon: So our whole deal at the center is to focus on adaptive challenges and improvement that we can make. And so these are short cycle data collections, what can you do in 90 days that makes a difference for kids? And we're seeing teams of educators in schools literally all over the world, we're in 45 plus countries and all 50 states. And we're seeing people make improvement. Now, I don't like talking about solutions because I think solutions are often too pat and too oversimplified where improvement is, well, if you've got a dumpster fire, put the fire out first. You're not building the Taj Mahal while the fire is burning. So it's how do we make those gains and then that builds momentum, especially when you see teachers and students doing together. So I'll end with this really encouraging note that I saw last week. Well, I'll give you a specific example of something that just was super inspiring to me and then a system example. Is that okay? Jill: Okay. Yeah, that sounds great. Jon: All right. So the system example was in South Carolina, we've been working with these schools that are doing collective leadership all over the state for eight years. I'm the program evaluator and researcher so I've been studying this high school, Blythewood High School. And this year when they had their showcase of the progress they've made each year, they brought the students to do it. So I was in a session where juniors and seniors in high school were talking about the collective leadership of their educators, and the way that was affecting their system as students. And the way they were leading alongside educators. I was like, Oh- Jill: That's really cool. Jon: This is the dream. The kids own it. It's not buy-in, they own it. The other story I'll give, and this was maybe my favorite classroom visit from the last year where this makes me optimistic. Brad Livingstone, who's our first gent, he's the husband of our president, Linda Livingstone and I was in his history classroom. And he's an amazing history teacher. He teaches World War II history and Vietnam War history at a local school. And the teaching's amazing, I was there for the Do-little raids. It was amazing World War II, so I enjoyed that. But at the beginning of the class, he's having students report out how many veterans they thanked the past week. So every Monday morning they report in how many veterans they thanked for what they did. And he got them doing this, and he's done this for years in all the different schools he's been in. He drives a van full of them to HEB in the middle of the day at the beginning of the semester. And he said, "Go out and find people that are my age or older and ask them if they served in the military. And if they do, introduce yourself, thank them for their service." Jill: That's awesome. Jon: And so they go out in teams and do that, and then he's like, "Now it's on you. You got to do this." And you got to get 50 this semester. And if you get 50, the goal is to get 1000 thank-yous in the course of the semester. That fundamentally changes the community. It doesn't just change the classroom. It doesn't just change the kids, that changes the community. Once you get to 50, you get a vial of sand from Normandy that he's collected. The kid who has the most thank-yous in a semester gets a vial of sand from Iwo Jima, which is in his way of saying it is the most difficult soil to get in the world because the only way you're allowed to go to Iwo Jima is if you are connected to Japan or you're a military liaison to Japan for the United States. That's the only way you get on that island. And so a veteran brought him back some sand from Iwo Jima. So one kid each semester gets that sand. And I'm sitting in there and this kid has thanked 75 veterans that past week. I was like, "How did you do it?" And he said, "Well, I go to football games and I watch for how people stand up and salute the flag during the national anthem. And then I go find them." I was like- Jill: That's awesome. Jon: ...how amazing is that? So those kinds of small changes are the kinds of things that change our community in a society that feels like it's super broken and polarized, that changes people. And so that's the hope. Jill: That is such a cool story. Thanks for sharing that. Thanks for sharing all the other stories, and I really hope that it was an encouragement to all the educators out there. We are so grateful for the work that you do on a daily basis and making a difference in the lives of each student. Jon: Yeah, thanks for all you do, Jill. It's great. We have a great job. Jill: Yeah, we do.

In this episode of From Survivor to Thriver, we talked with Jon Katz about his journey to better mental and physical health and how he learned that real healing comes after facing pain by looking within yourself. Jon tells his story and talks about how important it is to take full responsibility for our own lives and happiness. Now, he helps others overcome their struggles in the same way he did.In late 2020, Jon Katz went through a horrendous breakup. This breakup, compounded with the weight of an unstable childhood, decades of poor decision-making, poor relationship choices, and poor habits, left him obese, anxious, depressed, and suicidal at the age of 34. Since then, Jon has turned his life around in every conceivable way and now coaches others on how to step back from the path of negativity, poor health, hopelessness, worthlessness, fear, and suicide. It is now his life's mission to help folks out of the pit of suicidality, anxiety, depression, repression, and denial and take back their lives. Let's welcome in Jon!!In today's episode, we cover: How Jon reached his lowest point in his mental health and then changed the trajectory of his lifeHow the people we spend our time with can impact our habitsWhy we have to look inside if we want true happiness How Jon realized that running away from his problems wouldn't solve themThe problem with getting lost in the narratives of othersThe power of trying and giving things your allHow desperation can actually make you unstoppableHow your mental health and physical health are intertwinedThe juxtaposition between art and painHow the creative process impacts mental health We hope you enjoyed this conversation with Jon! If you want to learn more from him, head over to his Instagram and you'll find all of his links there. Thanks again for tuning in. We are so grateful to each and every one of you. Please remember to leave a rating and review of our show. It helps us grow and reach those who need it. Also, make sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode! Links: Follow Jon on InstagramVisit our websiteFollow us on FacebookFollow us on InstagramGet in touch: amgits.reverse@gmail.comQuotes: “The regretful man is the man that isn't leading a healthy life, that isn't really trying. If you aren't really trying, then you aren't really going to be okay.” -Jon “You have to remove things from your life if you want to grow.” -Jon “Sometimes you create these things, even if it is as therapy or to deal with the pain, and it helps and heals others, but it doesn't necessarily do that for the artist.” -Marc "When I'm creating something, I'm able to transpose my thoughts. It's like going on a trip. You have a suitcase and you have all this stuff in your suitcase and it's heavy and it's weighing you down. And you finally get to your room and you get a chance to unpack the suitcase and start to put things away. And I feel like that's what that creative process does from a mental health standpoint for me.” -Erik 

Want some advice? You'll find it in this episode where we interview Financial Advisor Jon Cunningham on best practices to teach kids financial skills and tips to start investing early. Don't miss out! This episode is especially great for parents and kids to listen together. This is a two part series so stay tuned! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Transcript Advisor Advice Part 2 Welcome back to another episode of the Cash Kid Podcast. If you haven’t already, be sure to visit our website at cashkidpodcast.com for more resources and links to past episodes. Follow us on Instagram as well. Today, is part 2 of our “Advisor Advice” interview with financial advisor Mr. Jon Cunningham. If you missed the first part of my interview with him, definitely go back and listen to it first. So much great advice… and he’s got more to share. The Cash Kid Podcast is underway. (music) Intro tease: So you’ve got some cash. Maybe from an allowance, or that money your grandma gave you for your 7th birthday (Here you go sweetie.) Thanks grandma. Whatever it is, what are you going to do with it? Spend it, hide it away… or maybe invest it? Let’s start learning how to make that money grow. Time to learn how to be a cash kid. (cash register) Alright, let’s jump right back into part 2 of our interview with Mr. Jon Cunningham. (music) Cash Kid - So what are some ways that kids can learn about personal finance in the stock market? Jon - Yeah, another great question. You know, I think it's very important someone once told me to always preserve precious capital. And so as you're working as a young person and you're working hard and you're sweating outside maybe mowing grass or doing chores for your parents, the last thing you want to do is earn that money and then lose it. So it's important that you really understand how investments and how the stock market works before you just put money in an account and buy a stock and hope for the best, right? Cash Kid - Definitely. Jon - You know, even when I was in high school, we had a stock market simulation game. And so there are programs out there that will basically give you plain money. So it's not real money. You're not subjecting your own money to risk, but you're buying stocks with this, you know, fake money and not real stocks. But it's a way to simulate how stocks work in the buying and the selling of stocks and researching them without putting money at risk. So that's an easy and safe way for a young person to really understand and learn the market without actually subjecting their money to risk of loss. Cash Kid- Yeah. In our previous episode we've talked about what is the stock market game. And so we talked with one of my teachers that introduced that to me. Jon - Oh cool. Cash Kid - That's how I learned about the stock market. And so that's what our previous episode was about. What are some ways kids can start earning, saving and investing their money? Jon - Yeah, this is going to require a little bit of involvement from from Mom and Dad. But until you reach the age of adulthood, you really can't open an investment account without the involvement of a parent or guardian. So their accounts called up UTMAs Uniformed Transfer of Minors Accounts, and these are accounts that are owned by a guardian or a parent for your benefit. And money can go into these investment accounts and certainly can be invested for your benefit. However, the parent owns this account, so the funds have to be used for you and for your benefit and someday would have to be transferred to you when you became an adult. So this would be a safe way. I'd say safe. This could be a way to open an account with parental oversight that you can invest some of your money in the market that eventually could be for your benefit. Cash Kid - Yeah. Do you think there are any, like, jobs out there that kids could do? Jon - Oh, absolutely. I mean, I have three kids. I love it when they work for me. And I think I think oftentimes kids try to find creative ways of forming a business early, whether it be mowing grass or everything from that to pressure washing, things like that. And oftentimes it's tough to find prospects. It's tough to find customers. It takes time and energy and money and overhead to to make that income. When oftentimes you can find things in your own backyard that you can do for your parents that they would really appreciate and also be willing to pay you some money to do it. And so certainly, I think it's a good thing for kids to have chores and allowances, but then also to work for for that money. So that could be something you talk to your parents about and say, hey, I want to make, you know, $25 a month, you know, what can I do around the house to make that kind of money? And I'm sure, you know, most parents would be happy to oblige. Cash Kid - Yes. Now, I assume you would agree that parents can play a big role in the financial success of kids. I mean, kids are always thinking of a way to pick up spending habits. What ways can parents be involved in helping set their kids on a healthy financial path? Jon - Yeah Cash Kid another great question. One of the biggest issues with with our economy right now is just that more with the amount of student loan debt that's out there. To understand what a student loan is, when a young person wants to go to college and they don't have the the cash or the resources to pay for tuition, room and board and all those types of things, they'll go to lending and lending institutions to get a loan to cover those costs. And often time, oftentimes interest and payments are deferred on those loans until that person graduates. So the risk associated with that is the student goes to college, incurs this debt and they graduate and number one maybe they can't find a job or they can't find a job that pays enough money for them to cover the student loan debt, plus all their other living expenses that's out there. So part of the way that parents can help their their kids be on a on a good financial trajectory is to make sure that they're making little decisions early on in their children's lives by setting money aside in a college related accounts like 529 plans or or other investment accounts that are earmarked for for their kids college. So with some of the listeners that you might be having here, a question could be you know, what can I be doing to set money aside that could help my parents pay for my college someday? Or maybe it's, you know, what can I be doing to do really well in school that I get what's called a scholarship and some of my tuition might be covered and all that could be helpful and ways of setting yourselves up financially for the future. But then also to I think it's important for parents just to be good examples and show good stewardship and be good stewards of the cash flow and educate kids on just simply what's a credit card mean or what's a checking account, and then what can we be doing to ensure I'm building a good credit score, even at a young age. Just kind of having transparent conversations like that I think are really important. Cash Kid - Yes. So, um, I'm sure you tell this to your partners in a lot of like work that you do. So when you educate others about early investing, why do you think early investing is important? Jon - Well, that's a great question. So I was prepared to answer that one. So yeah, when you look at the cost of waiting and waiting on investing, it's very expensive. So take an example of a ten year old child that says, hey, I have $600 a year or $50 a month that I want to invest and I'm going to invest that money and hopefully earn 6% growth for the next 55 years. So you're looking at starting at ten years old to age 65 to 55 years. Guess how much money that person has in 55 years? They have $236,503. So they started at age ten and saved the exact same amount between age ten and age 65. So now let's fast forward and say, hey, a 15 year old says, Hey, I want to do the exact same thing. I want to set aside $50 a month or $600 per year for the next 50 years until I'm 65 years old. Guess how much money that person has? They have $174,201.54, assuming they can make 6% every single year. The cost difference of a little over $62,000. So you see there's a significant cost to waiting and delaying, saving and investing at a young age. Now, there's not many ten year olds that can set aside 600 bucks a year. You know, consistently. That's a lot of work and that's a lot of chores. And and that's understandable. But just that exercise shows you that it's very important to start early, especially when you get out of college and you start making an income to really begin diligently saving and setting money aside for the future and not delaying because it is expensive. Cash Kid - Right? So what age would you say somebody could start investing? Jon - Well, really, it could it could start at any time with the assistance of Mom and Dad or guardian. But typically you have to be at age 18 to open an account by yourself and have an account individually owned by by just yourself. So you have to be 18 years old to have your own account. But again, going back to the previous point, you can open what's called UTMA with the assistance of Mom and Dad. Cash Kid - Right. So what resources would you suggest about researching companies to invest or find an advisor like yourself to get help? Jon - Yeah, that's a great question. You know, oftentimes if you just simply ask your Mom and Dad say, hey, you know, do we have a financial advisor? And chances are they're going to say yes. And oftentimes they'd be happy to talk to people like you Cash Kid and your little listeners for sure, especially if they have good questions. So I think that's step one just to kind of say, hey, is there an existing relationship that I can take advantage of and ask them questions, number one. Number two, if that's not available, you know, Google Finance is something that's a great tool. You can go on and check any stock and you can see all the publicly offered information like revenue and expenses and have it done all of these types of things for the marketplace. So Google finance is a very good and free resource to research and look into the stocks that you have interest in. Cash Kid - That's it for today. We appreciate your time and your expertise. Thank you for joining us on the call today and boosting the financial knowledge of the fellow cash kids everywhere. Remember that anybody can be a cash kid. You just have to learn how to become one. Jon - Thanks, Cash Kid (music) Thank you Mr. Jon. Wow, I’ve got some more homework to do for sure as I learned a lot from Mr. Jon and excited to think of the payout to investing early and knowing how to be financial smart early in life. More great interviews like this one in future episodes. Remember to visit us at the cashkidpodcast.com for more helpful tools, information, and past episodes. Cash Kid, out! Disclaimer: The information presented represents the views and opinions of the guests. This show does not intend to provide personal investment advice through this podcast. This content has been made for informational and educational purposes only. To make a full and informed investment decision, we advise you to speak with a financial advisor and for kids, definitely your parents first before investing.

Welcome back, everybody. Today we are talking about Acceptance Scripts with Dr Jon Grayson.  So happy to be here with you as we tie together our series on imaginals and scripts. Today, we have the amazing Dr. Jon Grayson and he is going to talk about acceptance scripts and the real importance of making sure we use acceptance when we're talking about scripts and imaginals. I'm so excited to share this episode with you. I think it really does, again, tie together the two other guests that we've had on the show in this series.  For those of you who are listening to this and haven't listened to the other two episodes of the series, go back two weeks. We've got the first one with Krista Reed and she's talking about scripts and the way she uses them. Then we have Shala Nicely and she talks about her own specific way of using scripts. Again, the reason that I didn't just have one person and leave it at that is I do think for each person, we have to find specific ways in which we do these skills and tools so we can make it specific to your obsessions and your intrusive thoughts. One explanation or one version or variety of this is probably not enough. I want to really deep dive in this series so that you feel, number one, you have a good understanding of what an imaginal and a script is. Number two, you know how to use them, you know the little nuanced pieces of information that you need to help make sure OCD and your OCD-related disorder doesn't make it a compulsion because it can. I really wanted to get some groundwork so that you feel confident using imaginal and scripts in your own treatment and your own recovery. Again, for those of you who are a little lost and feel like you need a better understanding of OCD, of how OCD works, how it keeps you stuck, the cycle of OCD and you want to make your own individual OCD and ERP plan, you can go to CBTSchool.com. We have a full seven-hour course that will walk you through exactly how I do it with my patients, and you can do that at your own pace. It's an on-demand course. It is not therapy, but it will help you if you don't have access to therapy or if you're really just wanting to understand and do a deep dive and understand what ERP is and how you can use it. That is there for you. But if you are someone who is just wanting to get to the good stuff, let's go over to the episode with Dr. Jon Grayson. Thank you, Dr. Jon Grayson, for coming on the show again. Always a pleasure to have such amazing people who really know their stuff. I'll enjoy this episode with you. Let's go. Kimberley: Welcome, Dr. Jon Grayson. I'm so happy to have you back. Jon: It is always fun to be with you. Kimberley: Okay. It's funny that you are number three, because I probably need you to be number one. Almost all of the scripting I ever learned was from your book. I think that even Shala Nicely came on and spoke about how a lot of what she does is through your book as well. Let's just talk about the way in which you walk people through an imaginal or a script. Now do you call it imaginal or script? Do you think they're synonymous? Do you have a different way of explaining it? Jon: I think jargon-wise, they're synonymous. I think by definition-- I feel weird saying that by definition because we made it up. I came up with the name “script” because originally, imaginal exposure suggested I'm just dealing with all the horrors and person's just going to think about it. I changed the name to “script” because I was including both. What are you being exposed to? What might happen and why would you take this risk? Because I feel like the script is not only to get used to the material, but we remind the person, why am I doing this? What am I getting out of taking this horrible risk? Why would I want to live with that?  WHAT IS AN ACCEPTANCE SCRIPTS/IMAGINALS?  Integral to the Acceptance Script is the whole idea of learning acceptance. Because too often, I think the biggest problem I see in most therapists is they just jump into doing exposure without making sure the person has done level 1 acceptance, which is “I want to live with uncertainty,” because to say “I want to live with uncertainty” is to say, “I am willing to cope if the worst things happen.” It's not just this general idea, it's like going to the extreme. “I'm willing to live, even if this happens. I'm willing to drive a car knowing that I might get paralyzed and disfigured in a car crash.” I think that's acceptance because if you're telling me you're never going to crash in a car and you know that's true, I guess that's a nice comforting thought that you might be in for a shock. We're willing to take that risk. I think across the board, it's always willing to live with the worst possible.  Scripts try to encapsulate that. They're trying to help bring the person not only to confront their fear but remind them of all the ways they want to cope with it. It is not a reassurance thing because let's face it, the worst thing happening, saying “I'll cope with the worst” is not really reassuring in a sense because it's something you really don't want to happen. But I guess the goal is, first of all, if it happens, you will do something that's coping or not.  I think non-acceptance-- God bless you. I'm glad we're live so people can see you were sneezing. I just didn't go into a religious ecstasy. I think we see non-acceptance insidiously all over the place without realizing it. In the beginning of the pandemic, so many people were going like, “Well, this can't last all summer. I can't deal with that.” That is a statement of avoidance and non-acceptance. I was listening to that and in the back of my mind, it's like, “Let's see. Everything they've told us makes it seem like this is going on for two years because they're not finding a vaccine.” Seriously, you can't take it. You're not going to do it. What are you going to do? In retrospect, everybody would have to admit, “Well, yeah, it was not fun, it was awful, but I lived through it.” Acceptance would've been, “Well, how am I going to try to make the best of this?” Making the best of it isn't wonderful, which I guess brings us to the first point about acceptance because I think in the Western world, we make everything glossy and pretty and beautiful. Acceptance is just this wonderful land of zen happiness. It's like I'm accepting everything is so good and, in reality, the best way to describe acceptance is that it sucks in the short run. In the short run, acceptance means “I'm going to be willing to embrace what seems to me the second-best life. This is what I want, I can have it, I will embrace this.”  WHY DO WE NEED TO PRACTICE ACCEPTANCE?  The prime reason to do acceptance is you don't have a choice. The other world doesn't exist. In the beginning of the pandemic, Kathy and I were doing our pandemic walk, my wife Kathy. We were doing our pandemic walk. I remember because you're terrified of everybody and you're walking looking around. Kathy says to me, “God, this would be such a great day if all this wasn't happening.” I said to her, “You're wrong, Kathy,” which for all the listeners should immediately cue them into the idea that being married to a psychologist is not necessarily fun. I said to her, “It is a beautiful day. We're with each other. Here we are. We're holding hands, taking a walk. It's really pretty. We're going to be spending the whole day together.” The truth is, it is a great day AND it's horrible that all of this is happening. I think acceptance is always AND. We always talk about letting stuff be there as if it's very passively like, “Oh, I can just let it be there and not bother me.” No, it's really horrible. Let me tell this really horrible story, which I can't remember if I've told on here, but it's a more graphic description of what acceptance looks like, if I may. A young girl was brought to me, 17, was really in terrible shape. I mean, she had been hospitalized, she had suicide attempts. So anxious, she couldn't tolerate being in a counsel's office for more than one hour when she first came in. Her meds were a mess. Over the next three months, we got her meds in line and she really worked incredibly hard considering where she was. And then in December, they asked, could she be in my support group? I said, “Well, it's not really for kids.” They talked me into things, “We think she's mature.” First of all, whenever she spoke up in the group, whatever she said would be brilliantly insightful that would just knock everybody out. She did not look old, but nobody could believe she was only 17.  As the year went on, we were tapering off sessions. The last time I saw her in June, her parents, her and her brother were driving out to the desert outside of LA looking for a vacation getaway place. On their way there, a drunk driver in her third DUI rammed the car and killed my patient Ruby and her 14-year-old brother. I don't have to tell you how devastated the parents were. I could talk a lot of stories that are amazing about them because I saw them starting about three weeks after their loss. At which point they said, “We want to be more than the parents of dead kids, but we can't imagine anything else.” I said, “Well, I can tell you what treatment will be like, but it just seems like words.” They agreed it'll be just words, but it's just nice to hear there's something. They coped amazingly well. But the only good thing about coping, in this case, is it's better than not coping. Maybe that's true a lot of the time. After a year and a half, they did buy the place where they were going to that they were looking for that day. They bought it because it made them feel closer to the kids. They didn't push that away at all. After a year and a half, they were at the place. It was one night where there was a meteor shower. They go, “Oh, we're going to go out and watch the meteor shower.” They go out at midnight, lay down on their backs and both immediately burst into tears because this 17-year-old, 14-year-old were actually the kind of kids they would've happily gone out there with their parents and enjoyed the whole time. I said to the dad, “Was it a pretty meteor shower?” He said, “Yeah.”  “Are you sorry you saw it?” “No.” I said the truth, “It was a beautiful meteor shower AND it's horrible that your kids were murdered.” It's a dark sense of humor and said, “Well, I thought we'd have at least a few moments. I said, “Yeah, that wasn't happening.” That's acceptance. They were living in the present. They could enjoy things and there was a hole in their heart. The alternative to that is comparing life to every second of life to how much better it would be. Whenever I compare life to a fantasy, I ruin the present. I have nothing.  I think the reason for acceptance is to make the best of whatever we can have. I think one of the wonderful things sometimes is that a lot of what we avoid is not something so devastating. It's maybe more in our head what we're trying to avoid. But a low probability event is not a no probability event. If that's what I'm scared of, low odds are comforting because I want no odds. Am I answering your question? Kimberley: You are. I think it's a really great opportunity for us to segue. You've talked about the first step being to familiarize yourself with uncertainty before doing scripts and acceptance. You've beautifully explained this idea. For the listeners, you can also go back. Dr. Grayson has been on the show before. You can listen to it. We've talked a lot about that, which is so beautiful and I think very much compliments what you're saying. Let's talk about the script that you're speaking of. Once you've done that work of acceptance, how would you-- Jon: I may have to call you Ms. Quinlan since you referred to me as Dr. Grayson.  Kimberley: No, call me Kimberley.  HOW CAN WE ACCEPT UNCERTAINTY USING SCRIPTS/IMAGINALS?  Credit: https://www.instagram.com/p/CmZUliJKhQB/ Jon: When considering how to accept uncertainty, that first step, are you willing to learn to live with uncertainty? That step is variable of talking in therapy for the first session. I've had some people take three months before they agree like, it's not like I really have a choice, and that's really what we're getting. What are you losing to that? I can't remember if I just said this before, but one of the biggest things that I end up teaching therapists who have been around the field for years is do not start exposure until the person has actually agreed that they're willing to learn to do this because obviously, they can just accept uncertainty. Then we're done with session 1. It takes one session to three months. The loose measure is to accept uncertainty to say if the worst happens, I will try to live with it and I will try to cope with it. If somebody says to me, “If that happens, I'll kill myself.” No, no. That's an avoidance. In this scenario, you are condemned to life. You're going to have to figure out how to cope no matter how awful.  In scripting, the idea of a script is not only to provide the imaginal exposure, which is like this terrible thing might happen. Because a lot of times, people go, if you say X might happen, “I don't want to think about it.” As I said to you in the beginning of the show, I can get any parent into an immediate statement of denial by saying, “What if your kids die,” the response of almost every parent is, “I don't want to deal with that. I don't want to think it through.” But if you're being tortured by the thought, that normal level of denial, which I don't think is the ideal way to handle it, but you already can't do it because you keep going into, “What about no, what about no, what about, no?”  How to write an Acceptance Script The very first step of how to write an  acceptance script is essentially asking the question, “why would I take this risk?” Because within that statement is part of your answer of why I'm going to pursue acceptance. It is not the same as acceptance, but it's why I'm being motivated to go after this.  Kimberley: What would that look like? How would you word that? Jon: As to why would I take this risk?  Kimberley: Uh-hmm. Jon: I'm trying to think of how horrible to go.  Kimberley: Let's pick an example because I think examples are helpful. Let's say someone has relationship OCD and they're afraid they're making the wrong choice in their partner. Jon: You picked one, I think, that's not necessarily the most horribly devastating consequences on one hand compared to like, am I an old child molester?  Kimberley: You go there. Jon: I have a really wonderful acceptance thing I do with that, so we will go there. But with the ROCD, I want to know, am I making this terrible mistake with my spouse? What we're asking them to accept is never knowing. Kimberley: You'd just say that in the script?  Jon: No, because we'll talk to them and we'll talk about why like, why am I willing to never know for sure? Because some of it is like they're looking into a relationship with the thermometer and taking the measure every minute. What's the temperature now? What's the temperature now? There's this fantasy that I should have no questions. I mean, depending on how deep they're in, I should find no one else attractive, but every moment should be great and I should have no complaints. Well, that is a fantasy marriage.  Kathy and I took a trip to France and it was an incredible trip. Of course, when you say going to Paris, everybody's eyes glaze over. We ate at a patisserie every morning, but let's face it, it's just a damn croissant. One place had the best café au lait. We were there for two days, but it was great. We saw the Catacombs where we had to wait in line for three hours in the hot sun. Went to a really fine restaurant, but we're not super foodies, so we're not necessarily going to like it. The experience can't just depend on, “This was great food,” or “This is terrible, we just spent a lot of money for what.” We go in knowing that. It was a great vacation. A great vacation. It's not like every second is great. Three hours in a hot sun, five-hour bus ride to go see the site, but it was still a great vacation. I think a relationship is like that, so I can't look at that now.  I think for the person with ROCD, we're going to say they are not perfect. Like any relationship, we want a hundred things and we're only getting 70 of them. It should be more than 20, but we're only getting 70. Are you making a mistake? Now, most people with ROCD can say they don't want to leave right now or sometimes they want to leave because of the anxiety. It's like, then you have to stay. I don't want you talking about all your fears and confessing because if you are wrong, you're just making this person feel bad for no reason.  My thought is, you can leave this relationship when you know for two weeks solid you want to leave with no question. No question. You know it is, sure, as you know you're sitting there because they generally accept that. We have to point out what are the realities of a relationship. Everyone on their wedding day thinks they're going to be married forever, but that's wrong 50% of the time. Whomever we marry, my spouse being an exception, 40 years later, they don't look as good as you did the day you married them. Technically, you were accepting second best in looks 40 years later. Kimberley: Did you know the rate of divorce is higher in therapists? Jon: Wow. So, Kathy and I are really against the odds. This is a little scary to you probably. We started dating in 1970 and this year, it'll be our 50th anniversary.  Kimberley: Wow. Congratulations. Jon: Having met at the age of two and started dating then, we don't really have much significant history before that. You will get angry and there are going to be things they don't want to do. Yes, you're going to have to learn to live not knowing that. That's going to be part of the script, that you don't get to know. What if you're making a mistake? Even if you fell wildly happily in love now and you had no question, really nice feeling. If the relationship seems good, no reason to question it. Now of course, if you have ROCD, you're checking all these reasons. It's like you're not ready to leave yet. Yes, when you're answering your questions, it's maybe. Even if I feel wonderfully in love with you, it might be that next year or after 20 years ago, I discover you've been having a seven-year illicit affair. I discover, “Oh hey, guess what? You're leaving me.” There are all kinds of things that could go wrong. Or I'll ask the person in this relationship, if this relationship was good and you felt constant passion affair and next year your spouse suddenly gets a dread disease that's going to make them really messed up and crippled and sick for the next years, I guess you're leaving them. Of course, everybody goes like, “No.” But the bottom line is, that's good, but that's not going to be what you signed up for.  How do we make the best of it? I did this one thing with one couple that worked like magic. I'm saying that worked like magic because I'd do it with everyone across the board, but usually, it doesn't work like this. This was the low probability. Oh my god, this was the killer intervention as opposed to, this is a start for most people. It was such a cute couple, but I'd given him the thing. “This weekend, when you're spending time with her, I want you to notice whenever you're having fun, and although part of you wants to compare it to what it should be, I want you to consciously just notice whatever it is, like if it's 5%.” Because a lot of times, you're comparing your current feeling to what it should be. There could be good things happening and you don't even notice because it's like, “I was just thinking about this, I was just thinking about this.” He had that assignment to notice it, whatever. He came back and he was like, “We had a great weekend. I still don't know if I love her or not, but if it could be like this forever, I'm good.” Now, that was a rarity, but that was the beginning of acceptance for most people, just noticing, oh, I'm not miserable every second. I agree a two-minute 20% joy isn't like, oh wow, that makes it all worth it. But it's stuff that you don't notice all along. We're trying to notice the good and the other stuff. Acceptance is not a decision; trying to learn it is. But when I talk about that couple who lost two kids, when I say it was more than a year for them to get to acceptance and what acceptance means for them is they didn't compare every moment to what it would be like if their kids were still alive. In fact, I didn't know this at the time when I told them that everything goes well after a year. You'll still have a hole in your heart, but you'll stop comparing every moment to if they were still alive. They just listened. But the dad wrote a book about mourning and he also did a one-man show called Grief, which I wish I could show everyone. But in one of those places, he said that when I told them that, in his mind, he was saying, “F you! I am never going to stop wishing my kids were alive.” And then he wrote that two years later, he's come to realize it doesn't do him or his kids any good to wish they were alive.” He's in acceptance. He still misses them greatly. He can still cry at them, but he's no longer making that comparison. I'm mentioning it because that takes time. No one expects a couple, three weeks after their kids are murdered, to be in acceptance. The same with anything I have to accept.  The person with OCD, they have this goal, but getting to that great state where “I'm living with this and it's okay, I embrace this life” is hard. Luckily, most of the time what they have to accept isn't devastating in the sense that nobody dies of AIDS. Am I with the wrong person forever? Well, maybe it's the second-best life, but that's the life I'm asking you to live for now, because all of us have no choice. Kimberley: Right. Let's break it down.  Jon: I'm sorry. Kimberley: No, you're great.  Jon: Okay. You're good at being back on target. Kimberley: I'm a real visual person too. I don't know if you know that about me, like if I need to see it visually-- Jon: By the way, that's fantastic because to say something and show it visually just makes it easier for everyone else around you that you're talking to. I appreciate what you're going to do. Kimberley: Okay. Walk me through the visual here. The first step is what?  Jon: Why would you take this risk? Kimberley: Okay, what's the second? THE SECOND STEP OF ACCEPTANCE SCRIPTS Jon: The second step of acceptance scripts is, if I do X, here's a list of the things I'm actually scared might happen. I say actually scared because I want to go, what's their fear? I can always go beyond even more horrible things, but I need to know what is their actual worst fear. Kimberley: Right. Let's say for two if it was relationship OCD, it would be, “I find out I'm in a terrible relationship and I'm stuck with them.” Or if they were having harm obsessions, it would be, “I harm and kill my wife or my grandparent or so forth.” You would write that down. Jon: Yeah. “Here's what might happen.” Kimberley: Okay. What's step number three? Jon: If this happens, how would I try to cope with this in a positive way? Kimberley: That's key, isn't it? How would I cope in a positive way? Jon: Right. And that will often be second best. Kimberley: Which is acceptance. Jon: Well, it's the road to acceptance. Remember, acceptance is not just this logical thing; it's this emotional thing. I have clients and they appreciate it. It's like, if we were just doing a therapy test, like say all the right stuff, they could ace therapy right away. They know how to say everything, they can do it. But feeling it takes time and behavior. I not only have to know it; I have to do the work of getting there. I have to go through all this pain. Now, I say, I think going through ERP is as painful as doing rituals. One is just an end of rituals versus endless rituals. I hate to keep going back to this couple, but what I said initially, the only good thing about coping is it was better than not coping. I had told them how well they were coping somewhere in the middle. Again, the dad said, “Wow, I hate to see the other poor bastards,” which was cute. I said, “Yes, but you've been in support groups, you've seen them.” He suddenly realized, “Whoa, we are coping even though this really sucks.” Kimberley: In this script—and maybe I'm wrong here, please tell me—I always think of the research around athletes and when they have an injury, there's research to show that while they're in the hospital bed with their new hip replacement and whatnot, the sports psychologists are coaching them through visual, imaginal, imagery of them doing the layup again and dunking the ball or turning the corner of the sprinting track or whatever. They're doing that imagery work to help them play out how they would cope, how they would handle the pain, how they would return. Is that what this process is in step 3?  Jon: No. Well, that guy or a woman who's imagining that, does their injury permit that possibility? Kimberley: Tell me more. Jon: Are they so injured that they will never be able to do a layup? Kimberley: No. In this example-- Jon: Or maybe somebody could say the odds are against them, so here's what you can try to do, and here's what to expect of how horrible it is to try.” But they might have to say, “You might not get there.” In a marriage, I don't care how good the marriage is, I cannot say it will definitely work out. I can't say you will definitely work out your problems. If I'm married for 20 great years, and then we have these three years at hell and I find out that you've been cheating on me the last two years, did I make a mistake? Or should I have left you four years ago, how would I know four years ago and should I have not tried, and all these questions that don't have an answer. All I know is where I am now.  THE THIRD STEP OF ACCEPTANCE SCRIPTS  I like to say success is not making the right decision. It's coping with the consequences of whatever decision you have made. I feel regret is cheating because regret is, again, I'm going into denial as soon as I have a regret. I should have done X. X would've been different. I don't know if it would've been better. This failed. X being better is one possibility, but there are a whole lot of other ones where maybe it wouldn't have been as good. All I can ever do is, what is next? That person in the relationship with ROCD, what do I need to do next? What have I learned? Somebody with ROCD did get divorced and gets into a relationship where they have the ROCD, but it's such a better relationship. It's not like you should have gotten out sooner because you know what, maybe if you didn't go into that other relationship, maybe you wouldn't have been ready for this one. Maybe you needed to go through your ROCD and go through all the crap to have this good one. Dumping that person sooner and getting into another relationship might have been better, or maybe you would've picked worse. We don't get to know. All we know is what is from this moment on.  Part of the exposure is, okay, X might happen. What are the possibilities of coping? Again, I think I said, in my scenarios, the person can't do suicide. They're condemned to life and say, why I kill myself? That's just a way of not thinking in the present. I want you to be stuck thinking about how you would try to cope with this. A lot of times, people have been so distant from it that it just seems like a screaming wall. It is like getting a phone call that somebody you love died. The whole world stops, and that's where people stop thinking. But in the real world, something happens after you get that information.  Part of the exposure is to go through what happened next, what are some possibilities? I always say to somebody, “I don't know if I can cope with the worst things that could happen to me, but I know that there are brave people who have. I don't know if I can be like them, but they're a model that I hope I will do that.” What if you don't cope? Well, then I'll be in deep trouble. My current plan is, the best I can do is I hope I will cope. I don't want to be paralyzed and disfigured in a car crash. I hope I would cope. I don't have to know that I'd cope because I'm going to wait till I get there to try to find out. But I might try to imagine it.  We're going to imagine what would you actually do. In this relationship, how will I live never knowing? I'm taking the ROCD, how will I live? What if this is wrong? It might be wrong. What's decent right now? What do you like? Because again, no person is perfect. How do I get into the state of that? Do I ever send people to marital counseling? If I see actual problems, I will, but I am not sending them to marital counseling to get rid of the ROCD. I'm sending them to get rid of actual problems. With or without those problems, they still have ROCD. I'm just eliminating, okay, here's some definite reasons to get out. But once they're resolved, then you're still stuck with the ROCD. THE FORTH STEP OF ACCEPTANCE SCRIPTS  Kimberley: Is there a fourth step of acceptance scripts?  Jon: Kind of. It's embedded in it, which is part of why I would take this risk, is what's resulting from not taking this risk? What are the graphic horrible things that keep happening to you because you keep avoiding, including the torture you feel, the hours loss, humiliation from doing things? How are you actually hurting the people you think you love? Because a lot of times in ROCD, they can say they care about the person. I'll always ask somebody, do you love your kids or love your spouse?” They'll say, “Yeah.” “Will you do anything for them?” They'll say yes. I'll say, “I'm sorry, you're a liar.” How do you hurt your family and loved ones with your ROCD? Not being present, yelling at them because they didn't do something, and all the other ways that one might, asking for reassurance endlessly being in pain in the neck. I will point out, you have a choice in your relationship. I'm going beyond ROCD. But you get to pick between, are you going to serve your fear or your love? You keep choosing fear over love.  Part of acceptance does have to do with what my values are. Who is the person I want to be? Here's another reason I need to do acceptance, because here's life without acceptance. Most people who we see, we can say, the idea of trying to not accept and do avoid, I think you've done an amazing experiment of checking out that method. I think the results are clear, it sucks, so it's time to try this other method. It's like, why am I doing acceptance? Because I think, again, in our society we just make acceptance sounds so wonderful. But that's just an idea. Why would acceptance actually be worth it? I have to think about why would it actually be worth it. I have to be motivated to do it. And then I'm stuck with this in-between thing that a lot of the time I'm doing a separate, recognizing I am not there yet, which by the way, there's this great book that this wonderful person wrote on self-compassion, because I need self-compassion during treatment because I'm not where I want to be. It's like I'm doing this really hard work and it's not there yet. The best I get to say is, I'm working hard, I see some improvement, but yes, I'm not there yet and mourning.  Learning to live the second-best life takes time. I keep saying second-best life. I don't actually mean it in some sense, but that is the feeling that when I'm working towards acceptance, that it is. I think in some cases, it's not really a second-best life. I think a lot of times, if I overcome a fear, it's like, this is great. Other times it is. I've had some people with a moral OCD about something they've done in the past and they're going through all these contortions to try to convince themself that it's not really bad even though they actually think it's bad, but maybe here's why it's not bad. Part of the acceptance is, oh yeah, that was a bad shitty thing. You feel guilty about that. What is forgiving yourself mean? Shockingly, almost nobody knows what forgiving yourself means. How are you going to get to that point? But I have to accept, yeah, that was bad. That hurt people or whatever it is by whatever standards. Again, depending on who we're talking about, it's like, “Oh, I guess we have to have you accept being as bad as everyone else.” In some other cases, no, that was really bad. WHAT HAPPENS IF I REFUSE TO ACCEPT?  Kimberley: It's great. The last part of the question is, what happens when I refuse to accept? What is the result of not taking this risk or even not accepting this, which is you have additional pain, right? The pain just keeps going and going and going. Jon: Right. That's right. End of pain. Endless pain. Kimberley: Yeah. If they've used these somewhat prompts and people can go to your book and work through a lot of them, I know on your website there are a lot of worksheets as well. Once they're writing these prompts, is there anything else you feel is important for them to know about this process or to be aware of or be prepared for in this process? Jon: I am pausing. The next revision of the book might be your inspiration. Well, because I know that it is way, way, way, way easier said than done. The core treatment for all OCD is the same. However, I have a completely different set of things I say depending on the presentation, because they each have their own set of things that the individual has to be focused on working to accept and live with. Although I think in my book I attempt. When I talk about each presentation, I do try to go over those and I've seen that for many people as helpful. But I also see for many people who've read the book, and even though they've read it, it ends up different for them to actually have to discuss it out loud. Sometimes it's because they haven't been able to think about it without realizing they avoid thinking about it. Sometimes because I think not all the connections are obvious, which I know is a really vague statement. I think I can go on, but I have to wait for you to ask a question.  Kimberley: Okay. We're running out of time, so I want to make sure I'm respecting your time. Jon: Don't respect my time, by the way. I set aside way extra time. This is on you if we end. Kimberley: Once you do those questions, you would then walk them through the four steps that you went through with scripting as well.  Jon: Yes, and some other horrible things because the horrible show, that should have been illegal. Actually, it's not on anymore. I think you can still find that on YouTube. Toddlers & Tiaras and the crazy mothers who make their little girls try to be in beauty pageants. You know what, if you look at the pictures of the kids, it's like, oh my God, they're sexualizing this eight-year-old. But when you say that word, that means you can see what they have done. You recognize the sexual aspect. You know what, if I go and take this picture apart, this horrifies people when I say it. It's like, if you look at their legs, it's like, yeah, they have good legs. Now, nobody wants to say that, and it's like, “Oh.” That's our first response. But if I have POCD, I see that, “Oh my god, what's wrong with me?” It's an acceptance that we can see something and recognize a piece of it.  I think the most difficult POCD is the people who “I don't want to be attracted to a 15-year-old.” I can say, if I show you this picture and tell you they're 18, oh, that's okay. If I show you the same picture and tell you they're 15, no, that's okay. It's like somehow magically, I find that the picture, the attractive is the picture is right or wrong if I tell you the age, which of course makes no sense. The picture is attractive or not independent of that. It's accepting, yes, I might find a whole lot of things. Again, what we think makes us accept or not do we act on it.  Kimberley: It's interesting because as you know, we just got a new puppy. It's taking over all of the Quinlan family and our lives. I had a moment where our puppy loves his belly to be scratched and right there is his genitals. I can see the projection of my mind of like, “What if you just touched that? Or what if you pulled that back?” The imagery, I could see myself doing it. Thankfully I have all these skills where I'm able to go, “Oh, there's a thought.” I did feel that hot, sticky anxiety flow going through. Jon: If you don't change diapers regularly, I'm sorry, it's a weird experience and I don't care who you are, you're going to think about that. If you're changing a little person and there you are, you're pumping their genitals because you got to clean it up and wipe it, you know what you're doing and the healthy thing is like, “Okay, weird thoughts. This is normal.” If I have OCD, it's like, “Why would I even think that?” Well, it's normal. Kimberley: It's funny because I was noticing myself going through some of these imaginal scripting steps myself. Instead of going, “No, no, no, no, no, you wouldn't, you wouldn't, you couldn't. That's terrible.” It was like, “All right.” This is the last question I want because you've given some great examples. As I was having this thought, I noticed the choice—I used the word “choice” on purpose—to get really edgy with it and try not to have it. My body language is all tight and I was gritting my teeth, or I was like, “Kimberley, just let it flow. Let the thoughts come.” As you're doing this with your patients, is there any piece of you where you are bringing their attention to whether their shoulders are all tight and their jaw is all tight and their hands are all tight, or does that not matter? Jon: Nothing not matters, maybe, but that's not always true. I thought you'd enjoy that. I think it depends on how much that's part of their conscious fear response. I mean, I think if they're doing their dog and it's like, “Oh my God, am I excited by this,” the answer I would be working on is, “I'm not really sure. Maybe I am in some deep way. I'm not going to play with the genitals now and that's the best I get to know.” Kimberley: Yeah. Agreed. I love this. Thank you. Again, I want you to say, where are the resources that people can go to get your concrete workbooks and your worksheets? Jon: I love how you make me have so many more books and worksheets. All the paperwork that appears in my book appears for free for anybody on the site FreedomFromOCD.com. In the Kindle and audio version, they couldn't have those, so I was obsessed to have the Kindle version so I made that available. My book has most of my repertoire except about 20 minutes. Those are the main places. I hate to do this, but most of the time, when it comes to OCD books, I will say to people, there are a bunch of books that I would recommend, I think, that are roughly equal. But I think the one that most agrees with me happens to be mine, so I mention a few of the other good books. There is only one other book seriously that I tell people to get because I think it's different, and that is your book, which is amazing because generally, I hate books that label themselves “self-compassion” because it's just a version of be nice to yourself in a lot of words. I feel your book gives these not easy-to-do steps that make it work. Although as I said to you last time, it is just you used too many exclamation points. Kimberley: I will forever decline your opinion on my exclamation points and my emojis. If you ever text with me, you'll know that I over emoji and I over exclamation points. Jon: I'm okay with that in text.  Kimberley: Thank you for that wonderful compliment. I do agree, yes, I have been blamed for the exclamation mark issue before, but I stand up and I stand with it. Jon: I like to warn people because I want them to know, oh no, don't worry. This isn't as you would put it all flowers and unicorns. It's a great book with too many exclamation points. Kimberley: No, it's funny because my mom helped me edit it while I was in a 14-day quarantine in a Sydney hotel for COVID. She would go through and she would add exclamation marks. She was adding e emojis and hearts and smiley faces and I was like, “Oh, we are going crazy here.” Jon: Now I know where you got it from. Kimberley: We're all love. Thank you for that. It's a very huge compliment. Thank you so much for being here and talking about this. Again, I love having you on talking just a little deeper into the topic and a bit more abstract, which I think is helpful too. Is there anything else you want to conclude on here? Jon: I would love to have some really cool, all-summarizing conclusion. The truth is, I can just talk endlessly. I'm just going to thank you for having me on and I am always willing to come talk with you. Kimberley: I would say, the point that I love that you made today, which I will add for you, is the word AND. The word AND is so important in this conversation. Jon: That's a great summary because I think so many of our ideas, it's not like they're new, they get refined with time. In a way, something we've been saying all along and suddenly there's this very slightly different way of saying it, but it summarizes it in a way that makes it more understandable, and AND I think does that for a lot of understanding mindfulness and acceptance. Kimberley: Yeah. Thank you so much.Jon: You take care.

Li:Welcome Jon Kaufman and El Sawyer to Future Memory. Jon:Thank you for having us.El:Thank you, cool name. Li:So what's your origin story? How did Jon and El become Ming Media? Jon:It's an interesting story and there's not really one particular magical spark, but it definitely was an organic process from my perspective, right? El his own journey and perspective with it, but I never really considered filmmaking as a career at all when I was younger, I never wanted to be like a Hollywood person, never wanted to direct or anything like that, but I was always interested in storytelling and especially advocacy and just trying to combat the narratives that I knew were false. I didn't know how to do that. And then it wasn't until I went to Temple and took a class, which was, I forget the name of, it's something around community media, which was a film class. I wasn't a film major at all, didn't study a film at Temple, but this class took me to the Village of Arts and Humanities in North Philly where El was teaching video production to neighborhood youth.And that was my first real exposure to filmmaking was this model that was completely outside of the traditional structure of what we consider to be like mass media and filmmaking in Hollywood storytelling, and just kind of fell in love with it. The idea that it was probably 2007 and cameras were just starting to get a little more accessible. Editing software was just starting to get a little bit more accessible to people. And so it was really this moment where I felt like, "Oh wow, this is something I could do." And I saw the power of it with what El was doing with kids in the neighborhood and just to be able to tell their own stories. Then I graduated Temple, El hired me to take over his position, actually The Village as the video instructor there and started teaching there, and I taught there for many, many years.And then we started doing our different projects together. At the time, I was just hustling music videos and whatever I could do to pay the bills with video. And I think our work really kind of solidified around 2010 or so when we started working with the Department of Justice in the US Attorney's office here in Philly to make Pull of Gravity. And that's what really kind of solidified our work and sort of joined us as a partnership and took our work to the next level. And we started Ming shortly after that. But that's a short version of it, and El has a different story for sure of how he got to The Village. Li:Right? There's always two sides to first encounter.El:There's three sides actually. Yeah, that's a good rendition. I think from that perspective, from my perspective, as you would see in "Pull of Gravity", I was introduced to film while I was in prison, and I had never wanted to be a filmmaker either. I was stabbed while I was in prison, and I didn't think I was going to go home. And there was an internal video crew inside the institution, and my plan was to kind of work my way onto the video crew in an event I didn't go home to basically make videos to send home to my son at the time.Not to be dramatic about it, but just like- Li:Like the archive of, yeah. El:... or a suicide note. I mean, it could be a lot of different things that way in event that I wasn't going to be there, it was something I would leave to him and I would sneak it out of the prison. And I did. I did about 10 videos. In that process, I was on the video crew just to get access to the cameras, and I had a chance meeting with Glenn Holsten, who was a Philadelphia filmmaker that came into the institution. And at no point, like I said, I was only on the video crew for that access to the cameras. And then he was accompanying Lily Yeh, who's the founder of the Village of Arts and Humanities into the institution, and he was documenting her work. She started a program at Graterford Prison, and in that he was allowed to come document her and her work there, but he wasn't allowed to bring camera crew or equipment.So they asked the camera crew internally, did anybody want to assist with him and nobody wanted to, and I volunteered to do that and it changed my life. So that was my sort of coming into film and even knowing that that was even an alternative that way. And in the process of doing that, I felt like there's this interesting quote, John Hendrick Clark, this author, and he said this quote, he says, "It's your duty to fashion your lived experience as a tool for liberation." And I feel like that's ... My elders used to say [inaudible 00:04:21] used to say that all the time to me. And I felt like in a lot of ways when I came home, that was my thought is how can I use my lived experience and who I am and my skillset to actually give other people the opportunity that I didn't have?So coming home, doing film with Glenn was really just like interning and trying to figure it out, navigate like that. And I had a job at the Village, and Lily Yeh gave me the opportunity to basically provide training and support to youth there at the organization and folks in the community teaching them what I knew about film. And I was kind of learning it as I go. And I did, so for a number of years and then in comes Jon, and this partnership I had with Temple and the professor at the time, Jon's professor, to bring that class. They had to learn along with the class that I was teaching at the Village. And it was love at first sight. I love him like a little brother or like a brother, honestly. And that's been our relationship ever since.Li:Well, that's a perfect segue to this next question about your relationship as working collaborators. What's your collaborative style like and would you say you've developed any kind of shorthand or secret language to get more effective with your process?El:Yes, and yes in every way, but I'll let Jon jump in on that. What you got, Jon?Jon:Yeah, there's a lot to that honestly, because I think neither one of us is really trained in any sort of traditional way. El, like he said, his first exposure was in Graterford, in prison using equipment that was probably way outdated and with very limited sort of technical training. But obviously Glenn was super helpful to him. And then for myself, I didn't study film in any traditional way. At the time I probably couldn't have named one director in the world besides Spielberg or whatever. I didn't know anything about that film world. I think just the fact that we don't come from the traditional filmmaking world has always been our thing where we're humans first. We just engage with people as humans and want to always take that approach where it's not about extracting a story or like, "Oh, how can we make the most exciting or dramatic stuff?"It's more about connecting with folks on a really human level and less about telling their stories, but really giving them a platform to tell their own stories and assisting people telling their own stories. We sort of see ourselves as a vehicle and as a tool for folks to leverage their own storytelling. So our process is super collaborative and sometimes to our detriment, it can be hard. It's not linear. None of this stuff is linear. And I think traditional production is like, oh, you write a script, you shoot it, you edit it. But we work with real people with real stories and a lot of our stuff, most of it is around trauma and very traumatic stuff and very heavy stuff and dealing with equity and violence and poverty and racism and it's really, really heavy stuff. So it's really important for us to connect with people on a really natural level first before doing any filming.We come from different backgrounds. I grew up in Germantown in the 90s, but I didn't grow up in poverty, but I experienced a lot of violence in my neighborhood and violence in the home and all kinds of stuff. And in college I tried to look at that experience through lens of urban studies and sociology, and I was like, "This is bullshit, putting people into categories, just labeling people." I was like, "This is bullshit." The academic approach to looking at what I was trying to understand about my experience growing up was not working for me. And then I think the sort of community filmmaking was just a way of like, "Oh wow, this is it. This is a way for real people to tell their own stories with some assistance from their own perspective," I think. So it was really just powerful to realize the power and the gap that community storytelling and community media could fill, not just in my own understanding of the world, but I feel just missing from the conversations that are happening in the newspapers and in mainstream media, so yeah.Li:Exactly. And are there additional folks that are working with you? Do you have an expanded team?Jon:We used to have a larger team. Covid kind of had us downsize a bit, but our main producer is Gabe Wiener. He's an amazing producer, filmmaker. He's been in Philly for about 15 years now, so he's our primary producer. But we work with a lot of folks all over Philadelphia and around the country and around the world too. But yeah, mostly we staff up as needed for different projects, but we could run down a huge list of names that are Philadelphia folks. But no, it's a collaborative effort, right? We work with so many different people and we're super grateful. It's not a solo sport. There's so many people. We've been talking about our film Music Vets, which we'll get to later, but when the credits roll in one of our films, there's like a hundred names or something of people. So yeah, that's the short answer.El:And to the point of just like you're saying secret language or how we operate together, a lot of it's nonverbal, like I say when I say Jon and I are like brothers, that's not an exaggeration at all. A lot of times it's so nonverbal. And then to bridge that to our team, a lot of our team either learned from us or learned with us, and I always look at it as like a Philly style. I don't know why. I associate it as a Philadelphia style. Philadelphia style has been for us as a sort of Guerilla style. We do it all. If somebody calls us to do, "Yep, we can do it," whatever, and we'll figure it out. And we're super resourceful and nothing is beyond us in the sense of we're not too good for a thing. If I'm a director, if we're directors, we go to a scene, I'll be cleaning up the block.It's like nothing's beyond you to do. But with that said, with respect to the team that we're working with, again, like Jon said, we staff up accordingly because sometimes we document in sometimes very compromising or very complex environments. So we're super conscious of the human there in their environment and everything. And our crew has to make sense and comprehend in which the environment we're going to be filming in. And we take that very serious and we're really honored when people give us interviews and just basically allow us into their world and we really caretake that. And again, like Jon said earlier too, our detriment a lot of times because we're just uber sensitive, because we uber understand how media can be hurtful and has been weaponized, and we control that in that way on behalf of the people that we work with.Jon:And our crews are really small. Like I was saying, we're filming super sensitive situations a lot of the times. We'll be in a city that we've never been to in the Deep South on a block that has an active situation going on. And we've been granted access to film there in the middle of the night and it's very active. And it's just El and myself, and we're trusting our host and they're trusting us and it is what it is, but we can't come in there with lights and boom mics and big crew. And sometimes we have to bring in a crew from New York and it's like they show up with a truck and lights and 15 dudes, and it's like, that's not our approach at all. We just can't operate like that at all.Li:You have to shape-shift to your environment and the communities you're in.Jon:Yeah, and I think we kind of start from that shape, right? Our shape is the sort of that community aspect and we scale up when we have to. But I think our style and what makes our work, you know, gives us so much of that access and that power is that we try to do it with as little as possible and just meet people where they are and not try to be invasive at all. And that can be in a lot of ways through the questions we ask or don't ask, but also how we come into someone's home or how we come into someone's neighborhood.El:And represent those things too. Very conscious that we're not going to ask certain questions. And again, our team and our staff has to understand that as well. And we can't have folks on our team just randomly, you know what I mean? So we do a lot of pre-prep and a lot of pre-production and around even information, around the topics that we're working on. If it's foreign to us, we source folks that know or we engage that particular community. We recognize that we're not of that community in a lot of times, so we respect that and we operate accordingly and empower from there and staff from there and everything like that. Again, that's why it's difficult to just say, "Oh, we're a production company. We just kind of write the script and just go do it." It's not the case at all. Our process is as important as the product that we create.Li:Now you mentioned "Pull of Gravity" as your breakout project and probably the first film where you got to flex your muscles as a team working together. Now in hindsight, almost a decade later, how has "Pull of Gravity" impacted MING's trajectory in the industry and where you are today as a team?Jon:That's a great question.El:I mean, it impacted us like crazy, and I can speak just personally. "Pull of Gravity" was never meant to be, ultimately what it was or have, even the reach that it had, that was never even on the forefront of that thought. It was originally seated in a thought I had years ago when I was in prison, when I first was introduced to film is I knew that once I started to be introduced to that world and started to think now, "Wow, I may go home and then how am I going to be successful going home?" I seen from the position I had being in prison that I seen people that were smarter than me, older than me. I went to prison at 17.I had just did two years in juvenile prior to that, hadn't graduated high school, never had a job. I had no source of foundation to come home and actually activate and become anything that I was imagining at the time. So I was conscious of that. So I was scared that if I go home, what do I have in my access that shows me where I'm coming home to so I can then tool up or position myself at least mentally to actually be effective and come home in an appropriate way? So that's what "Pull of Gravity" was sort of rooted in, is in that. How do we show people inside institution, how do we show lawmakers and whatever this world, there was a gap in the communications right across the board. That's how we seen it. So documenting "Pull of gravity" originally was meant to be what it was, but also it caught on fire that way. It really-Li:It did. I mean, as a witness, someone who got to see you all working on the film when you were in production and some of the folks that you interviewed and then to see it. I remember you had a screening, where was it? It was like-Jon:Constitution Center.Li:The Constitution Center.Jon:Yeah, I think that was our very first screening. Yeah.Li:Yeah. Oh my gosh. It was powerful because there were some special people in the room, powerful people I think it was on everyone's minds that, "Oh wow, this film is making an impact, and this is just the beginning." We could tell the film was going to go places and that you were going with it.El:Yeah, there was buses of folks that got turned away that there was just not a capacity for it. So that was important, and then in that, that was shock to us. And then it just spoke to the need of the disconnection that existed, and it taught us a lot. I mean, that exposure of traveling around to areas that I just would never, and Jon either I'm speaking for Jon, but we would've never thought that that was going to take off like that, and that need existed there, but it did, and it still does. And like you say, 10 years later, I don't know another film that's come out that matches in that genuine state that it was created in at all.Jon:Yeah, and the conversation around reentries and returning citizens, and it's huge now. There's so many programs, there's so many ways in the organizations. 10, 12 years ago, it was not the same situation. So at the time it was the film was made under a mandate from Eric Holder, the Attorney General at the time, and it was to ask local US attorney's offices to start thinking of different ways to do community engagement, but specifically talking about reentry, and that's the power of film. There's a way for people to come together in a room that would normally never have a conversation, never be in the same room at the same time. And the film provided a way that people are going to come see a film for entertainment, for education, for an experience. And that's just the power of what it can do is it can bring, you know, we had federal prosecutors in the room, we had former incarcerated people, we had community members. Mayor Nutter requested tickets [inaudible 00:16:29] was like, "I have to be there." It was a huge thing.Li:It was a huge thing.Jon:Yeah. And at the time there was very little resources in this space, especially resources created by someone who had been in prison that told the experience from an authentic way. And we toured the film around the country for probably three or four years. And like I was saying earlier, we thought we would have a little bit of interest in, oh, New York, la, Chicago. We found ourselves in Pensacola, Florida, Minnesota, Western Pennsylvania, Upstate New York, all over the country. California screening in federal probation in Northern California, we're like, "Wow, we had no idea," because there was such a lack of resources and education and knowledge in this space at that time. Li:Here's a clip from the trailer of “Pull of Gravity”. [ clip plays ] Jon:At the time we were comparing our film to reentry programs in prison, and the contrast is just absurd. The stuff they were making that was meant to prepare people to come home was probably still in use. It's literally a joke. And maybe El could speak to more to it, but once we found out about what was actually being used in prison at the time to prepare people to come home, we're like, "Oh, wow, this is not going to work."Li:This is not going to work.Jon:This is not going to work. And this film is not just a supplement, but almost an antidote to those terrible programs. And the film is used as a training program, not just for correctional officers, for social workers, for probation, parole officers, it's also used for people in prison all over the country as a tool to prepare them to come home. So it's really manifested in the vision that El had for it at the very beginning to help people prepare themselves because it's real out there.Li:Well, yeah, and as an educator too, one of the things that I recognized from the film when I saw it was how much I learned not just about reentry, but about this big word recidivism, which I didn't know much about. And understanding that it's not just about preparing folks for reentry into their community, but also preparing them to make sure they don't return to prison.Jon:I think also it's about preparing society to better accept people and know what to do, right? Because I think that was the biggest thing. It's like everybody is like, "How do we prepare people to return home? How do we help people succeed?" It's about the individual and their success or their failure or their path. But one of our goals was just educating society about back to trauma, the trauma, the lack of resources, and just how hard it is. So it's about helping people return, but also helping society better prepare itself and prepare all of us to better understand these experiences. Li:And even more intimately the families. Because one of the things I remembered so clearly is that even the families of these individuals had to make adjustments, had to have a deeper understanding of what these individuals were going through and how to be ready to accept them and make sure that they had the tools for themselves to deal because it wasn't an easy road for anyone. El:That's a really good point, and I would add to that too is like you were saying about the education of the recidivism rate in which people go back to prison. I think one is that what struck me the most and which is probably still at the cornerstone of why I need to exist, is the fact of, it was like an introduction to people, to real conditions in which people live in, the environment. We look at it as three what we call subjects, in this case, myself as one or folks that we documented in the film that were sort of main subjects in the film. And the fourth was the community, the built environment. And that built environment is as toxic and quartered off from grander society as one could imagine. And again, even the most well-meaning folks just have no earthly idea how toxic it can be when you're quartered off.And these [inaudible 00:22:00], and again, this is literally happening in a vacuum, but the decisions that are being made or even the thought around gun violence and all these different things, they're not made with the comprehension of cause and effect. They're not made with respect to understanding the true conditions in which people are under. So I can go on and on, but I'm just saying it's like that was the main sort of meat of it, was looking and how do we inform people? One thing is about the programs, other is like where's people coming back home to and those conditions and how do you expect them to actually survive and/or thrive based off of this information?Li:So what's your lifeline? Where do you find hope and what keeps you doing this work?Jon:Context. One of the things we've learned a lot in the past two years with “Pull of Gravity” and a lot of our other work, our work has always been around trauma in a lot of ways, but we didn't have the language and the vocabulary and the full understanding to have a full understanding of all that, right? In the past few years, we've learned this word vicarious trauma, and we've both experienced firsthand traumas in different ways, but then our work has been this collective experience of receiving so many other people's stories of trauma. And that takes a toll in itself, and especially hear stories of the first responders, therapists, all kinds of people have that do this work that is sort of parallel. It's a lot to take in these stories over years and years and years and years. All that to say, I would never take it back.It's an honor and a privilege to do this work. We've sat with people in just the most trying situations in some of the hardest moments and the hardest situations. And it's an honor and a privilege to be trusted to do this work and to tell these stories and tell stories with people. I think like a lifeline, I think it's just the resilience of folks. And we've talked a lot about this word resilience, and it's a lot of times it's framed as this magical thing and it's like this positive thing, but resilience is a response to survival. Resilience is a response to horrible conditions. Resilience is a necessity. So yeah, resilience is great, but it's not really by choice. It's because you're placed into a situation, you have to adapt to it. So I think a lot of our work now, especially with Music Vets, is moving this direction of just breaking down these labels like that. And you can talk to the Bruce Perry analogy, but I'll pass it over to El for a minute and then we'll come back to maybe Music Vets, if that works.El:That's interesting. I think, yeah, definitely agree with Jon. I think it has been traumatic, and I always talk about how it's actually in a lot of ways as for me, has been a sort of, it kind of kept me out of my own internalizing my own traumas too, or dealing with my own personal stuff until just recently. So yeah, so I feel like for a lot of times we looked at it as, and we see it as a sort of calling in a lot of ways and artistry that way, and just being with people and feeling like we're being a service. And I think that's whatever, but lifeline personally is my family, my babies. And I think that's huge. And that is a grounding, very regulating element in my life.So like it or not, they're present and you can't get away from that. So it's like at the end of the day, and there's this doctor, Sandy Bloom, says trauma is the inability to be in the present. And I think as much as my mind wanders and I get into a zone, my daughter's looking at me and just putting this sticker on my forehead and just like I'm like, "That happened." So it really is grounding at a time and I feel like it's being with, so being with my family and getting healthy I think is the sort of lifeline that I find myself in now. And I think Covid had its own effects and the work on top of that, but I feel like that's my personal sort of lifeline that way.Jon:Yeah. For me, it's similar. My daughter especially is just my life and just being with her and just seeing her grow and seeing her learn about the world and having her challenge me and push me and check me all the time is just, it's the most beautiful thing in the world and it's extremely grounding. And I think aside from that, we're going to talk about Music Vets eventually, but music has been a huge lifeline for me. Music and nature and somatic work, working with my body and just getting trauma out through physical stuff has been a huge lifeline for me.Li:And here's a clip from “Music Vets”. [ clip plays ] Li:I want to talk about Music Vets. Can you share a little bit about that project and any connections that you might have seen or felt that you made with this community of survivors that might have connected to say, the communities in Pull of Gravity or other projects that you've done?Jon:It's really interesting. We were approached by the board chair of a music school in Westchester, New York, the Music Conservatory of Westchester, who had heard of "Pull of Gravity", maybe I think had seen it. And he immediately saw the connection of people returning home from prison and people returning home from war. And they had a music therapy program and he was like, "Wow." Rodd Berro is his name, amazing, amazing guy, executive producer of our film Music Vets. And he said, "Wow, could we make a film that follows veterans coming back to society like Pull of Gravity through the lens of music and music therapy as their treatment?" Obviously different because in Pull of gravity, it wasn't really about treatment or recovery in that way or healing, it was more about stating the problem and getting a really interesting deep firsthand exposure to the environment and the human stories.But with Music Vets, it was really interesting because we had this sort of solutions based avenue as well, this solutions based lens, which is, here's an issue, but here's how people are using music to deal with this issue and to heal. So the parallels were really interesting. For me, I was immediately drawn to the music aspect. I think El was more drawn to the veterans aspect, but together it's been a magical experience to just dive into the world of neither one of us are veterans, and that's very different from Pull of Gravity, obviously, because that was about El's own personal experience. Neither one of us are vets, so we just take a few steps back and humble ourselves and really do a lot of listening, a lot of learning, a lot of unlearning and reading and just spending time with people. We spent about a year, maybe a year and a half just meeting with people and getting to know them before we did any kind of filming, a lot of research before we started filming that project. And we started in 2017, and it's 2023, and it's just starting to have light. It's a hell of a process.Li:Quite a process, right?Jon:Yeah.Li:You have to have stamina to be a filmmaker, right?El:I mean, yeah, stamina and a lot of other things I think. And then especially something like that. And again, we always emphasize the point of just in these days, anyone with a camera is a filmmaker apparently. And that's cool and empowering for people to tell their story and all about that. At the same time, just understanding media and understanding unbridled approaches is really hurtful, could be hurtful and damaging to individuals. And again, our approach, and again, up until the point of doing Music Vets, we've done a lot of work. We do work all over the world all the time, and we've made mistakes and we learn from mistakes. And again, we do our best to learn and grow and be iterative in our process. So that's why we took that time during that. I mean, just for common sense, we don't know much about that topic as much at the time, so we just took that time to actually learn and grow.And this is part of our process overall. And a lot of people may not necessarily do that. And I think even with that, just to be respectful to where someone is and the sort of knee-jerk reaction in creating content is the sensational whatever kind of approach. And our work is the opposite of that. And not necessarily intentionally anti-sensational, maybe it is, but just telling the human story is again, understanding media and understanding that how hurtful it could be. This is a permanent record. When people are documented, their kids are going to see this, forever. So you get somebody to talk about certain things that's really super personal, maybe that's not necessarily something that you want to live forever. And we try to encourage against or try to use our human approach to actually make sure people are aware of what we're doing and the impact. So not just from us, in the future, if somebody comes up and films them, like, understand the power of that too.Jon:You see all these films and media and stories around veterans and PTSD, and it's usually there's this sort of style where it's like hyper-masculine, in your face showing explosions or people with injuries on camera. And we really try to take a different approach. And really, one thing about Pull of Gravity, we never asked or focused on in the film what led people to go to prison in the first place, because that was like the knee-jerk reaction. And with Music Vets, we never asked people, how did you get injured or how did you get PTSD or whatever. But things came out in the film in the process, but that was never the intention of creating this linear story of this happened and then this happened and this happened.Because it's not like that. Healing is not linear. Healing is very non-linear in a lot of different ways. And it was just very important for us to not take that sort of knee-jerk approach, if you look at a lot of veterans films or issues around military, there's a style to it, and it's like the combat footage and things like that. And we had chose to use animations in the film instead of really showing any sort of footage like that. And it was a very intentional process. And then the music in the film too is also follows a very sort of soothing pathway, right? Li:I saw a clip. It does come across that way, very much so, yeah.Jon:Cool, cool, and so it was important for us to take the music that was played in the film by the veterans, and our composer Jesse Koolhaas from Amsterdam took the music and was able to integrate a score that basically blended their music with natural music that he was creating, so it flows, right? And it's intentionally not really any in your face, shocking stuff. There's some serious moments for sure. But we didn't want to have the film sort of lean into that direction of that sort of dramatic, overly dramatized sort of military culture kind of vibe at all.Li:No, you're right. There is kind of a standard way of dealing with that material. And it's great to see that you have found a way, again, bringing it back to that, just trying to have a human connection with the folks and the stories that you're telling. So with the work that MING does, how do you decide you want to tell a particular story? What kind of things have to be in place for you to pursue a project?Jon:That's an ever evolving thing?. I think there's a project we've done years ago that we wouldn't do now for sure because our standards have changed and our experiences have led us to not want to do certain sort of work that we've done a lot of work with philanthropy and foundations, and there's certain types of that work that we would not do anymore just because of the ethics involved and the power dynamic.Li:That's growth, right?Jon:It is, it is.Li:Learning and growth.Jon:Yeah, yeah, and it's not easy. It's like people think filmmaking can be lucrative and the way we do it, it's not always the case, right? It's very, very hard. It's like a six-year project, right? Music Vets. So we've turned down a lot of projects in the past few years that would've been maybe financially lucrative, but it didn't fit with our morals. There was a project last summer involving a big network that approached us about doing a project around juveniles in the system in Philly. And we turned it down because we've seen their work, it's a large network that everybody knows. I'm not going to state the name. And we knew that it was going to be sensational no matter what we did if we're handing off footage to a large network and it's about juveniles, we don't trust that relationship. So we turned that down.And there's a lot of other examples like that where we just feel, you know, we've learned the hard way. And years ago, we would probably do things that we wouldn't do now, but we've definitely grown. It makes it hard sometimes. It's hard to sustain in this sort of pocket of filmmaking. We don't really do a lot of commercial stuff. There's not really any big checks for commercials at all, which are kind of quick and shorter term projects.El:We do stuff for work in the sense of just, there's stuff that was just like, all right, it's a paycheck and it's a way to sort of pay some bills, but it's still ethical. And from our perspective, it's not hurtful. And if we're involved, we're just going to insist that certain things are done that way either way and push that boundary. And we feel like we can be a sort of [inaudible 00:35:12] that way. But I think even outside of that, despite the project and the contract kind of basis is it's standing the gap for the subjects and who would be documented or the people that in the subject matter and generally speaking.So it's really negotiating and making sure that we have creative decision a lot of times and making sure that we have that sort of, so a lot of times it's less about just doing the work. A lot of times we've at a place where people bring us in as a partner on a project. So as opposed to just being a sort of point and shoot kind of situation. [inaudible 00:35:46] I think if we can look at this as this, as a partnership. That way, it gives us enough leeway to push back and say, "We're not going to," you know what I mean? We're going to have some curatorial sort of control that way.Jon:And is it going to help? Is it push the needle? Is it going to help individuals? Is it going to benefit people in some way? Especially people that have maybe not had the opportunity to tell their story in this way. So, with Music Vets, I think one of the biggest successes for us is that the three main subjects of the film all love the film and embrace it.Li:That's important.Jon:And their families, that's the most important right thing for us because they've given us their stories, not just given their service to us in this country, but given their stories, which is, that's priceless. So I think that most importantly is do our subjects see a benefit for themselves or for a cause that they believe in? That's most important to us.El:And building that relationship and maintaining those relationships even at all costs too, right? Sometimes there's a huge success in that too. I think those relationships are really important to us and our clients are important too. A lot of times we're really, to me, it speaks a lot of a partnership with a client that sees our value of what we bring and even our being standing firm on the side of the topic and the subjects or subject matter that they're willing to work with us and understand that we may have a position that be a better vantage point or a different vantage point than what they have too, to have the better outcome and can support or amplify, help amplify the voices of the subject.Li:And what was it about Monument Lab projects that appealed to you? What were the ideas and the intentions that aligned between MING and Monument Lab that made that collaboration possible?Jon:Yeah, great question. I think that's like El was just saying. I think when the values are there and they're aligned, we've been following their work for a number of years and paying attention and we loved what we saw and the opportunity came up to start working with them, I believe maybe end of 2020 on a small project with the state of New Jersey. And it was just very clear from the beginning that our values are aligned. We all know we're living a big lie in this country. A lot of big lies. There's a lot of myths and a lot of histories that have just been created and set in stone. And we know that those aren't true. There's so many different sides to this story of this country and the histories here that are just forgotten and intentionally not recorded in history. So I think a lot of our work is already naturally aligned with flipping this script and trying to tell real truths and alternative histories that are actually the real histories.So I guess it was 2020, we started working daily. We had a small project and it involved three groups of artists in New Jersey that were retelling stories of the American Revolution through the lens of people of color. And there were three artists of color that did these short projects. And we made three short films with them. And right away, Monument Lab was just super receptive to our approach, and we were able to step outside the box. We were able to have creative freedom and it was just really impactful. And this felt like a natural connection, but when the values are aligned, it's very, very clear.And then we've been doing some great work since on the Regeneration project and now Beyond Granite in the National Mall in Washington DC. So, I think it's just about knowing that the accepted mainstream history that we're all living and being told is not true, or there's a lot of forgotten or intentionally left out stories and that's why we're here. That's why we've been doing what we're doing, and it's great to just be aligned like that. Yeah, their work is incredible. It's amazing to see where it's come from and where it's at now and where it's going. Li:If you could document any project or tell any story, what would it be? And think a little bit outside the box, maybe a departure from some of the projects that you've done in the past. This could be absolutely anything. Jon:It's a hard question. I think for years I've been wanting to do something that doesn't involve something traumatic, right? Something that's just happy and fun- Li:I can imagine that might be where you're leaning. Jon:No, but I don't see that happening anytime soon, honestly. Just that I would love to be able to, you know, I think art and music and healing, healing through art and music and creative arts therapies. "Music Vets" opened up all these avenues for us of just getting to be on military bases and see veterans using music and getting to go to places where people were making masks and painting and all these different creative therapies and dance therapy and different sorts of alternative therapies. And it's just opened up all these doors of there's a million ways to heal. And in Western medicine, we really only look at a few as being legitimate.But the truth is, society and all around the world, we've been using these ancient traditions to heal forever, right? And it's only in the past a hundred or 200 years we've been like, "Oh, take this pill or talk to this therapist or do this," and this is how you get better through this Western medicine framework. So I think personally, I'm really interested in looking at just different models of healing that are outside of the traditional Western medicine framework, but especially through music and dance and sound, I think. So really, really interested in doing more stories in that.Li:In the arts.Jon:Yeah. Li:How about you, El?El:Yeah, I don't know about a specific project. I think it's more about different processes. I think again, just the process of filmmaking sometimes can be really patriarchal and just very boiled down almost too much for my liking. And I feel like I really love telling a whole story or hearing a whole story as opposed to making a one-minute clip out of a one-hour conversation. And it's like the many people that we've documented over the years that's just not here anymore. I mean, just in "Pull of Gravity" alone, I think there's shame on me for not knowing, but I think there's 11 people I think maybe that we've documented in "Pull of Gravity" alone that's not here anymore, all to my knowledge by gun violence. And those were very personal relationships and very, very, very personal. So, seeing a short clip of something to me is just like, "Ugh."I think figuring out a way to document or work on something that is more well-rounded. I think there's a power and actually story arc narrative of filmmaking, but actually encompassing more sort of experimental aspects of installations or something that actually helps tell a bigger story and engulf someone in a reality for a time to give justice to the story. But specifically, there was this interesting story I seen recently, Glenn Holsten, who came in and taught me film in prison. He worked on this film called "Wyeth" about Andrew Wyeth, the painter, and I live now in the Westchester area and out that way.And I went to the museum finally the other day as a Brandywine River Museum. Very fascinating. And long story short, in the exhibition, they have this one thing about this artist who is also local named Horace Pippin. And it just blew me away to hear the story about Horace Pippin in the sense that Horace Pippin was just really quick not to bastardize his story or edit his story, but was in the self-taught artist, was in the army, was injured in the army, lost use of his right arm, which he was right armed.Li:I didn't know that.El:And he painted. How did he paint with his right arm? He learned painting as a therapy and he used his left arm to move his right arm to paint all the paintings that he painted.Li:Wow. Jon:Never knew that.Li:Me neither.El:I didn't know that either and he lived not far from where I live. And I'm just blown away by stories like that. And again, we're talking about resilience, but you're also talking about experiences and we're talking about in the 30s or 40s we're talking about folks that did it on that level, given all of the odds against them in that context of time and all of the dynamics that was happening then. So, I think that's a very fascinating story. Stories like that, that basically emphasize people's, again, resilience, but adding social sort of context to give another perspective of the environment in which they actually had to evolve and in a way they used art to do that. I think there's something fascinating in that for me.Li:That is a fascinating story. And like I said, I work in the arts, I didn't know that about Horace Pippin, so thank you for educating me on that bit there. So, what's next for MING Media?El:Evolution. No, it is always evolving. I think post Covid, a lot of things changed for everybody, and they gave us a lot of reasons to change and evolve, and that's where we are now. Even to work with Monument Lab, I think a lot of that is rooted in some of the evolution too, looking at, and it gives us the opportunity to spend time with stories from everybody, from indigenous experiences on a lot of levels, to being omnipresent with things that we've been bombarded with every day without knowing. So, all of our work basically evolves us in a way that would just, it gives us a moment to sort of pause and then decide and determine where we can apply that. So we have a number of cool projects on the horizon for clients coming to us now and stuff. So we're just growing and evolving. That's how I would say it. What'd you say, Jon?Jon:Yeah, and just seeing how it's all so connected too. The more and more we grow and the work with Monument Lab has been just so beautiful and an amazing experience. Just for talking about some overlap, so I had the opportunity to travel to South Dakota in October for a Monument Lab project with Re:Gen and got to work with an amazing group there, the Rapid City Indian Boarding School project with Amy Sazue and her team. And I was welcomed with open arms as an outsider, and they told me right away, "We don't really trust people with cameras too much." And by the time I left, we were family and getting hugs and hanging out with people's families and kids and-Li:Oh, that's beautiful.Jon:... It was beautiful. And just, it's such an honor and a privilege to be in that position, and it's humbling. It's really humbling. But one beautiful experience there, I went to the Black Hills pow wow when I was there, and the first 30 minutes of the entire pow wow, 30 minutes straight, maybe even an hour, the opening ceremony was honoring Native American veterans with music and dance. And then the connections just, wow, between "Music Vets" and Monument Lab and the work we've been doing and the amount, oh man, just the amount of connections.Li:So many connections.Jon:The statistics around Native American folks and indigenous folks in terms of incarceration. The numbers are out of control and they're high representation, the armed forces too. So, there's a lot of interesting connections and it's all starting to connect for us, all this different work. And there's an amazing story there, another one real quick is around this elder I met, Faith Spotted Eagle. She's incredible. She was one of the leaders of the Standing Rock protest in the Dakota Access Pipeline, and she was the first and only indigenous person to receive an electoral vote for president. And it's a whole story to look up. She's incredible.She works with veterans at the VA in South Dakota and uses traditional ceremony music to work with native vets within the VA.Li:Incredible.Jon:And so just the overlap here of just the work we're doing is just, it's monumental.Li:It's monumental.Jon:And it's beautiful. And again, it's an honor and a privilege and just so we're excited to see how these connections keep growing and the work keeps evolving between our personal experiences and our work history and where the future has taken us.Li:Well, it has definitely been an honor and a privilege to sit here with you all. I just want to thank you for the awareness that you're bringing to all of these issues. It's super important, and I can't wait to see what comes next for MING Media. Thank you, Jon Kaufman and El Sawyer. It's been a pleasure. Jon:Thank you. El:Thank you, Li.

Jeff CLARKE (Bretford records, 09/06/23) - Locust - Something happened HIPPIE HOURRAH (Simone Records) - Exposition individuelle - Les murs YOCTO (Du prince / Requiem pour un Twister) Station 01011/Dactylo - Station 01011 J.E. SUNDE (Vietnam, 16/06/23) - Alice, Gloria & Jon - You don't wanna leave it alone (3'00) Kevin MORBY (Dead Oceans) - More photographs (a continuum) - Triumph BLACK SEA DAHU (SR) - Orbit - Orbit Jeff CLARKE (Bretford records, 09/06/23) - Locust - Kind of a boy (2'19) Jeff CLARKE (Bretford records, 09/06/23) - Locust - Stolen valor Astrud GILBERTO (Verve Records, 1965) - The shadow of your smile - The shadow of your smile (2'32) QUICHE MY ASS (Les Disques du Paradis, 09/06/23) - Amore disco - Darniel (3'03) BAR ITALIA (Matador Records) - Nurse ! NUSANTARA BEAT (Les disques Bongo Joe) - Borondong Garing Djanger DVTR (From Lisbon Lux Records) - Vasectomia Jeff CLARKE (Bretford records, 09/06/23) - Locust - Weird ways

Ask Austin Anything! In this episode Austin answers questions from listeners just like you. Get your question answered on a future Ask Austin Anything episode by submitting it to the link below.Time Stamped Show Notes:[0:30] - #AAA for October 2022[1:15] - Jon - You said most people spend 90% applying and 10% networking and that should be reversed. Can you explain how to go about reversing that? Let's say you see a couple of jobs posted that you are interested in but have no or very few ins at the company (no direct connections working there...). Do you apply and then try to reach out to recruiters or hiring managers or how do you go about networking in this scenario?[5:26] - Marelena - How do you think the idea of “credibility” has changed in the age of content creation and personal brand on social media?[11:17] - Antony - For people creating a coaching program and getting clients on LinkedIn, would you recommend starting 1:1 or group format?[14:46] - Sal - What's your advice for those who are planning to transition from full-time employees to a more fractional/coaching/entrepreneurship lifestyle?[17:09] - Laura - How do you help people through burnout, whether in their job search or day-to-day work?[20:52] - Shauna - What is a strong opinion you have that most people don't agree with you on?Have questions about how to land your dream job without applying online? Text them to Austin at (201) 479-9511.Ask Austin Anything:Click here to get your question answered on a future #AAA episodeShare Your Feedback:Want a free resume or LinkedIn profile review from Austin? Leave us a rating or review on iTunes to automatically be entered to win. We choose winners every week, click here to learn how to leave a review and enter to win.What should Austin talk about next? Ask a question or share your thoughts at CultivatedCulture.com/FeedbackConnect With Austin:Cultivated CultureLinkedInInstagram@austinbelcak on TwitterTry Austin's free Resume Builder, free Resume Scanner, and free Mailscoop email finder tool

About JonA husband, father of 3 wonderful kids who turned Podcaster during the pandemic. If you told me in early 2020 I would be making content or doing a podcast, I probably would have said "Nah, I couldn't see myself making YouTube videos". In fact, I told my kids, no way am I going to make videos for YouTube. Well, a year later I'm over 100 uploads and my subscriber count is growing.Links Referenced: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jon-myer/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/_JonMyer jonmyer.com: https://jonmyer.com TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by Honeycomb. When production is running slow, it's hard to know where problems originate. Is it your application code, users, or the underlying systems? I've got five bucks on DNS, personally. Why scroll through endless dashboards while dealing with alert floods, going from tool to tool to tool that you employ, guessing at which puzzle pieces matter? Context switching and tool sprawl are slowly killing both your team and your business. You should care more about one of those than the other; which one is up to you. Drop the separate pillars and enter a world of getting one unified understanding of the one thing driving your business: production. With Honeycomb, you guess less and know more. Try it for free at honeycomb.io/screaminginthecloud. Observability: it's more than just hipster monitoring.Corey: DoorDash had a problem. As their cloud-native environment scaled and developers delivered new features, their monitoring system kept breaking down. In an organization where data is used to make better decisions about technology and about the business, losing observability means the entire company loses their competitive edge. With Chronosphere, DoorDash is no longer losing visibility into their applications suite. The key? Chronosphere is an open-source compatible, scalable, and reliable observability solution that gives the observability lead at DoorDash business, confidence, and peace of mind. Read the full success story at snark.cloud/chronosphere. That's snark.cloud slash C-H-R-O-N-O-S-P-H-E-R-E.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud, I'm Corey Quinn. Every once in a while I get to talk to a guest who has the same problem that I do. Now, not that they're a loud, obnoxious jerk, but rather that describing what they do succinctly is something of a challenge. It's not really an elevator pitch anymore if you have to sabotage the elevator before you start giving it. I'm joined by Jon Myer. Jon, thank you for joining me. What the hell do you do?Jon: Corey, thanks for that awesome introduction. What do I do? I get to talk into a microphone. And sometimes I get to stare at myself on camera, whether it makes a recording or not. And either I talk to myself or I talk to awesome people like you. And I get to interview and tell other people's stories on my show; I pull out the interesting parts and we have a lot of freaking fun doing it.Corey: I suddenly feel like I've tumbled down the rabbit hole and I'm in the wrong side of the conversation. Are we both trying to stand in the same part of the universe? My goodness.Jon: Is this your podcast or mine? Maybe I should do an introduction right now to introduce you onto it and we'll see how this works.Corey: The dueling podcast banjo. I liked the approach quite a bit. So, you have done a lot of very interesting things. For example, once upon a time, you worked at AWS. But you have to go digging to figure that out because everything I'm seeing about you in your professional bio and the rest is forward-looking, as opposed to Former Company A, Former Company B, and this one time I was an early investor in Company C, which means, that's right, one of the most interesting things about me is that I wrote a check once upon a time, which is never something I ever want to say about myself, ever. You're very forward-looking, and I strive to do the same. How do you wind up coming at it from that position?Jon: When I first left AWS—it's been a year ago, so I served my time—and I actually used to have ex-Amazonian on it and listed on it. But as I continuously look at it, I used to have a podcast called The AWS Blogger. And it was all about AWS and everything, and there's nothing wrong with them. And what I would hear—Corey: Oh, there's plenty wrong with them, but please continue.Jon: [laugh]. We won't go there. But anyway, you know, kind of talking about it and thinking about it ex-Amazonian, yeah, that's great, you put it on your resume, put it on your stuff, and it, you know, allows you that foot in the door. But I want to look at and separate myself from AWS, in that I am my own independent voice. Yes, I worked for them; great company, I've learned so much from them, worked with some awesome people there, but my voice in the community has become very engaging and trustworthy. I don't want to say I'm no longer an Amazonian; I still have some of the guidelines, some of the stuff that's instilled in me, but I'm independent. And I want that to speak for itself when I come into a room.Corey: It's easy as hell, by the way, for me to sit here and cast stones at folks who, “Oh, you're going to talk about this big company you worked for, even though you don't work there anymore.” Yeah, I really haven't worked anywhere that most people would recognize unless they're, you know, professionally sad all the time. So, I don't have that luxury; I had to wind up telling a story that was forward-looking just because I didn't really have much of a better option. You have that option and decided to go in a direction where it presents, honestly as your viewpoint is that your best days are yet to come. And I want to be clear that for folks who are constantly challenged in our space to justify their existence there, usually because they don't look like our wildly over-represented selves, Jon, they need that credibility.And when they say that it's necessary for them, I am not besmirching that. I'm speaking from my own incredibly privileged position that you share. That is where I'm coming from on this, so I don't want people to hear this as shaming folks who are not themselves wildly over-represented. I'm not talking about you fine folks, I assure you.Jon: You can have ex-Amazonian on your resume and be very proud of it. You can remove it and still be very proud of the company. There's nothing wrong with either approach. There are some conversations that I'll be in, and I'll be on with AWS folks and I'll say, “I completely understand where you're coming from. I'm an ex-Amazonian.” And they're like, “Oh, you get us. You get the process. You get the everything.”I just want to look forward that I will be that voice in the community and that I have an understanding of what AWS is and will continuously be. And I have so much that I'm working towards that I'm very proud of where I've come from, but I do want to look forward.Corey: One of these days, I really feel like I should hang out with some Amazonians or ex-Amazonians who don't know who I am—which is easier to find than you think—and pretend that I used to work there and wonder how long I can keep the ruse going. Just because I've been told a few times that I am suspiciously Amazonian for someone who's never worked there.Jon: You have a lot of insights on the AWS processes and understanding. I think you could probably keep it going for quite a while. You will have to get that orange lanyard though, when you go to, like—Corey: I got one once when I was at a New York Summit a couple years ago. My affiliation then, before I started The Duckbill Group, was Last Week in AWS, and apparently, someone saw that and thought that I was the director of Take-this-Job-and-Shove-it, but I'll serve out my notice until Friday. So, cool; employee lanyard, it was. And I thought this is going to be awesome because I'll be able to walk around and I'll get the inside track if people think I work there. And they treated me like crap until I put the customer lanyard back on. It's, “Oh, it's better to be a customer at an AWS event than it is to be an employee.” I learned that when the fun way.Jon: There is one day that I hope to get the press or analyst lanyard. I think it would be an accomplishment for me. But you get to experience that firsthand, and I hate to switch the tables because I know it's your podcast recording, not mine, but—Corey: Having the press analyst lanyard is interesting because a lot of people are not allowed to speak to you unless they've gone through training. Which, okay, great. I will say that it is a lot nicer walking the expo floor because most of the people working the booths know that means that person is press, generally—they're not quite as familiar with analysts—but they know that regardless that they're not going to sell you a damn thing, so they basically give you a little bit of breathing room, which is awesome, especially in these pandemic times. But the challenge I have with it is that very often I want to talk to folks who are AWS employees who may not have gone through press training. And I've never gotten anyone in trouble or taken advantage of things that I hear in those conversations and write about them.Everything I write about is what I've experienced in public or as a customer, not based upon privileged inside information. I have so many NDAs at this point, I can't keep track, so I just make sure everything I talked about publicly cited I have that already.Jon: Corey, I got to flip the script real quick. I got to give you a shout-out because everybody sees you on Twitter and sees, like, “Oh, my God, he's saying this negative, that negative towards AWS.” You and I had, I don't know, it was a 30, 45 minute at the San Francisco Summit, and I think every Summit, we try to connect for a little bit. But that was really the premise I kicked off a lot of our conversations when you joined my podcast. No, this is not my podcast, this is Corey's, but anyway—Corey: And just you remember that. Please continue.Jon: [laugh]. But you know, kind of going off it you have so much insight, so much value, and you kind of really understand the entire processes and all the behind the scenes and everything that's going on that I was like, “Corey, I got to get your voice out there and show the other side of you, that you're not there trying to get people in trouble, you never poke fun of an AWS employee. I heard there was some guy named Larry that you do, but we won't jump into that.”Corey: One of the things that I think happened is, first and foremost, there is an algorithmic bias towards outrage. When I say nice things about AWS or other providers, which I do periodically, they get basically no engagement. When I say something ridiculous, inflammatory, and insulting about a company, oh, goes around the internet three times. One of the things that I'm slowly waking up to is that when I went into my Covid hibernation, my audience was a quarter of the size it is now. People don't have the context of knowing what I've been up to for the last five or six years. All they see is a handful of tweets.And yeah, of course, you wind up taking some of my more aggravated moment tweets and put a few of those on a board, and yeah, I start to look a fair bit like a jerk if you're not aware of what's going on inside-track-wise. That's not anyone else's fault, except my own, and I guess understanding and managing that perception does become something of a challenge. I mean, it's weird; Amazon is a company that famously prides itself on being misunderstood for long periods of time. I guess I never thought that would apply to me.Jon: Well, it does. Maybe that's why most people think you're an Amazonian.Corey: You know, honestly, I've got to say, there are a lot of worse things people can and do call me. Amazon has a lot to recommend it in different ways. What I find interesting now is that you've gone from large companies to sort of large companies. You were at Spot for a hot minute, then you were doing the nOps thing. But one thing that you've been focusing on a fair bit has been getting your own voice and brand out there—and we talked about this a bit at the Summit when we encountered each other which is part of what sparked this conversation—you're approaching what you're doing next in a way that I don't ever do myself. I will not do it justice, but what are you working on?Jon: All right. So Corey, when we talked at the New York Summit, things are actually moving pretty good. And some of the things that I am doing, and I've actually had a couple of really nice engagements kind of kick off is, that I'm creating highly engageable, trustworthy content for the community. Now, folks, you're asking, like, what is that? What is that really about? You do podcasts?Well, just think about some of the videos that you're seeing on customer sites right now. How are they doing? How's the views? How's the engagement? Can you actually track those back to, like, even a sales engagement in utilizing those videos?Well, as Jon Myer—and yes, this is highly scalable because guess what I am in talks with other folks to join the crew and to create these from a brand awareness portion, right? So, think about it. You have customers that you want to get engaged with: you have products, you have demos, you have reviews that you want to do, but you can't get them turned around in a quick amount of time. We take the time to actually dive into your product and pull out the value prop of the exact product, a demo, maybe a review, all right? We do sponsors as well; I have a number of them that I can talk about, so Veeam on AWS, Diabolical Coffee, there's a couple of other I cannot release just yet, but don't worry, they will be hitting out there on social pretty soon.But we take that and we make it an engaging kind of two to three-minute videos. And we say, “Listen, here's the value of it. We're going to turn this around, we're going to make this pop.” And putting this stuff, right, so we'll take the podcast and I'll put it on to my YouTube channel, you will get all my syndication, you'll get all my viewers, you'll get all my views, you'll get my outreach. Now, the kicker with that is I don't just pick any brand; I pick a trusted brand to work with because obviously, I don't want to tarnish mine or your brand. And we create these podcasts and we create these videos and we turn them around in days, not weeks, not months. And we focus on those who really need to actually present the value of their product in the environment.Corey: It sounds like you're sort of the complement to the way that I tend to approach these things. I'll periodically do analyst engagements where I'll kick the tires on a product in the space—that's usually tied to a sponsorship scenario, but not always—where, “Oh, great. You want me to explain your product to people. Great, could I actually kick the tires on it so I understand at first? Otherwise, I'm just parroting what may as well be nonsense. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not.”Very often small companies, especially early stage, do a relatively poor job of explaining the value of their product because everyone who works there knows the product intimately and they're too close to the problem. If you're going to explain what this does in a context where you have to work there and with that level of intensity on the problem space, you're really only pitching to the already converted as opposed to folks who have the expensive problem that gets in the way of them doing their actual job. And having those endless style engagements is great; they periodically then ask me, “Hey, do you want to build a bunch of custom content for us?” And the answer is, “No, because I'm bad at deadlines in that context.”And finding intelligent and fun and creative ways to tell stories takes up a tremendous amount of time and is something that I find just gets repetitive in a bunch of ways. So, I like doing the typical sponsorships that most people who listen to this are used to: “This episode is sponsored by our friends at Chex Mix.” And that's fine because I know how to handle that and I have that down to a set of study workflows. Every time I've done custom content, I find it's way more work than I anticipated, and honestly, I get myself in trouble with it.Jon: Well, when you come across it, you send them our way because guess what, we are actually taking those and we're diving deep with them. And yes, I used an Amazon term. But if you take their product—yeah [laugh]. I love the reaction I got from you. But we dive into the product. And you said it exactly: those people who are there at the facility, they understand it, they can say, “Yeah, it does this.”Well, that's not going to have somebody engaged. That's not going to get somebody excited. Let me give you an example. Yesterday, I had a call with an awesome company that I want to use their product. And I was like, “Listen, I want to know about your product a little bit more.”We demoed it for my current company, and I was like, “But how do you work for people like me: podcasters who do a lot of the work themselves? Or a social media expert?” You know, how do I get my content out there? How does that work? What's your pricing?And they're, like, “You know, we thought about getting it and see if there was a need in that space, and you're validating that there's a need.” I actually turned it around and I pitched them. I was like, “Listen, I'd love for you guys to be a sponsor on my show. I'd love for you to—let me do this. Let me do some demos. Let's get together.”And I pitched them this idea that I can be a spokesperson for their product because I actually believed in it that much just from two calls, 30 minutes. And I said, “This is going to be great for people like me out there and getting the voice, getting the volume out there, how to use it.” I said, “I can show some quick integration setups. You don't have to have the full-blown product that you sell out the businesses, us as individuals or small groupings, we're only going to use certain features because, one, is going to be overwhelming, and two, it's going to be costly. So, give us these features in a nice package and let's do this.” And they're like, “Let's set something up. I think we got to do this.”Corey: How do you avoid the problem where if you do a few pieces of content around a particular brand, you start to become indelibly linked to that brand? And I found that in my early days when I was doing a lot of advisory work and almost DevRel-for-hire as part of the sponsorship story thing that I was doing, and I found that that did not really benefit the larger thing I was trying to build, which is part of the reason that I got out of it. Because it makes sense for the first one; yeah, it's a slam dunk. And the second one, sure, but sooner or later, it feels like wow, I have five different sponsors in various ways that want me to be building stories and talking about their stuff as I travel the world. And now I feel like I'm not able to do any of them a decent service, while also confusing the living hell out of the audience of, “Who is it you work for again anyway?” It was the brand confusion, for lack of a better term.Jon: Okay, so you have two questions there. One of them is, how do you do this without being associated with the brand? I don't actually see a problem with that. Think of a race car; NASCAR drivers are walking around with all their stuff on their jackets, you know, sponsored by this person, this group, that group. Yeah, it's kind of overwhelming at times, but what's wrong with being tied to a couple of brands as long as the brands are trustworthy, like yourself? Or you believing those, right? So, there's nothing wrong with that.Second is the scalability that you're talking about where you're traveling all over the world and doing this and that. And that's where I'm looking for other leaders and trustworthy community members that are doing this type of thing to join a highly visible team, right? So, now you have a multitude and a diverse group of individuals who can get the same message out that's ultimately tied to—and I'm actually going to call it out here, I have it already as Myer Media, right? So, it's going to be under the Jon Myer Podcast; everything's going to be grouped in together under Myer Media, and then we're going to have a group of highly engaging individuals that enjoy doing this for a living, but also trust what they're talking about.Corey: If you can find a realistic way to scale that, that sounds like it's going to have some potential significant downstream consequences just as far as building almost a, I guess, a DevRel workshop, for lack of a better term. And I mean, that in the sense of an Andy Warhol workshop style approach, not just a training course. But you wind up with people in your orbit who become associated, affiliated with a variety of different brands. I mean, last time I did the numbers, I had something like 110 sponsors over the last five years. If I become deeply linked to those brands, no one knows what the hell I do because every company in the space, more or less, has at some level done a sponsorship with me at some point.Jon: I guess I'll cross that when it happens, or keep that in the top-of-mind as it moves forward. I mean, it's a good point of view, but I think if we keep our individualism, that's what's going to separate us as associated. So, think of advertising, you have a, you know, actor, actress that actually gets on there, and they're associated with a certain brand. Did they do it forever? I am looking at long-term relationships because that will help me understand the product in-depth and I'll be able to jump in there and provide them value in a expedited version.So, think about it. Like, they are launching a new version of their product or they're talking about something different. And they're, like, “Jon, we need to get this out ASAP.” I've had this long-term relationship with them that I'm able to actually turn it around rather quickly, but create highly engaging out of it. I guess, to really kind of signify that the question that you're asking is, I'm not worried about it yet.Corey: What stage or scale of company do you find is, I guess, the sweet spot for what you're trying to build out?Jon: I like the small to medium. And looking at it, the small to medium—Corey: Define your terms because to my mind, I'm still stuck in this ancient paradigm that I was in as an employee, where a big company is anything that has more than 200 people, which is basically everyone these days.Jon: So, think about startups. Startups, they are usually relatively 100 or less; medium, 200 or less. The reason I like that type of—is because we're able to move fast. As you get bigger, you're stuck in processes and you have to go through so many steps. If you want speed and you want scalability, you got to pay attention to some of the stuff that you're doing and the processes that are slowing it down.Granted, I will evaluate, you know, the enterprise companies, but the individuals who know the value of doing this will ultimately seek me and say, “Hey, listen, we need this because we're just kicking this off and we need highly visible content, and we want to engage with our current community, and we don't know how.”Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friend EnterpriseDB. EnterpriseDB has been powering enterprise applications with PostgreSQL for 15 years. And now EnterpriseDB has you covered wherever you deploy PostgreSQL on-premises, private cloud, and they just announced a fully-managed service on AWS and Azure called BigAnimal, all one word. Don't leave managing your database to your cloud vendor because they're too busy launching another half-dozen managed databases to focus on any one of them that they didn't build themselves. Instead, work with the experts over at EnterpriseDB. They can save you time and money, they can even help you migrate legacy applications—including Oracle—to the cloud. To learn more, try BigAnimal for free. Go to biganimal.com/snark, and tell them Corey sent you.Corey: I think that there's a fair bit of challenge somewhere in there. I'm not quite sure how to find it, that you're going to, I think, find folks that are both too small and too big, that are going to think that they're ready for this. I feel like this doesn't, for example, have a whole lot of value until a company has found product-market fit unless what you're proposing to do helps get them to that point. Conversely, at some point, you have some of the behemoth companies out there, it's, “Yeah, we can't hire DevRel people fast enough. We've hired 500 of them. Cool, can you come do some independent work for us?” At which point, it's… great, good luck standing out from the crowd in any meaningful way at that point.Jon: Well, even a high enterprise as hired X number of DevRels, the way you stand out is your personality and everything that you built behind your personal brand, and your value brand, and what you're trying to do, and the voice that you're trying to achieve out there. So, think about it—and this is very difficult for me to, kind of, boost and say, “Hey, listen, if I were to go to a DevRel of, like, say, 50 people, I will stand out. I might be one of the top five, or I might be two at the top five.” It doesn't matter. But for me why and what I do, the value that I am actually driving across is what will stand out, the engaging conversations.Every interview, every podcast that I do, at the end, everybody's like, “Oh, my God, you're, like, really good at it; you kind of keep us engaging, you know when to ask a question; you jump in there and you dive even deeper.” I literally have five bullet points on any conversation, and these are just, like, two or three sentences, maybe. And they're not exact questions. They're just topics that we need to talk about, just like we did going into this conversation. There is nothing that scripted. Everything that's coming across the questions that you're pulling out from me giving an answer to one of your questions and then you're diving deep on it.Corey: I think that that's probably a fair approach. And it's certainly going to lead to a better narrative than the organic storytelling that tends to arise internally. I mean, there's no better view to see a lot of these things than working on bills. One of my favorite aspects of what I do is I get to see the lies that clients tell to themselves, where it's—like, they believe these things, but it no longer matches the reality. Like developer environments being far too expensive as a proportion of the rest of their environment. It's miniscule just because production has scaled since you last really thought about it.Or the idea that a certain service is incredibly expensive. Well, sure. The way that it was originally configured and priced, it was and that has changed. Once people learn something, they tend to stop keeping current on that thing because now they know it. And that's a bit of a tricky thing.Jon: That's why we keep doing podcasts, you keep doing interviews, you keep talking with folks is because if you look at when you and I actually started doing these podcasts—and aka, like, webinars, and I hate to say webinars because it's always negative and—you know because they're not as highly engaging, but taking that story and that narrative and creating a conversation out of it and clicking record. There are so many times that when I go to a summit or an event, I will tell people, they're like, “So, what am I supposed to do for your podcast?” And we were talking for, like, ten minutes, I said, “You know, I would have clicked record and we would have ten minutes of conversation.” And they're like, “What?” I was like, “That's exactly what it is.”My podcast is all about the person that I'm interviewing, what they're doing, what they're trying to achieve, what's their message that they're trying to get across? Same thing, Corey. When you kick this off, you asked me a bunch of questions and then that's why we took it. And that's where this conversation went because it's—I mean, yeah, I'm spinning it around and making it about you, sometimes because obviously, it's fun to do that, and that's normally—I'm on the other side.Corey: No, it's always fun to wind up talking to people who have their own shows just because it's fun watching the narrative flow back and forth. It's kind of a blast.Jon: It's almost like commentators, though. You think about it at a sporting event. There's two in the booth.Corey: Do a team-up at some point, yeah.Jon: Yeah.Corey: In fact, doing the—what is it like the two old gentlemen in the Sesame Street box up in the corner? I forget their names… someone's going to yell at me for that one. But yeah, the idea of basically kibitzing back and forth. I feel like at some level, we should do a team up and start doing a play-by-play of the re:Invent keynotes.Jon: Oh… you know what, Corey, maybe we should talk about this offline. Having a huge event there, VIP receptions, a podcasting booth is set up at a villa that we have ready to go. We're going to be hosting social media influencers, live-tweeting happening for keynotes. Now, you don't have to go to the keynotes personally. You can come to this room, you can click record, we'll record a live session right there, totally unscripted, like everything else we do, right? We'll have a VIP reception, come in chat, do introductions. So, Corey, love to have you come into that and we can do a live one right there.Corey: Unfortunately, I'm going to be spending most of re:Invent this year dressed in my platypus costume, but you know how it works.Jon: [laugh]. Oh man, you definitely got to go for that because oh, I have a love to put that on the show. I'm actually doing something not similar, but in true style that I've been going to the last couple of re:Invents I will be doing something unique and standing out.Corey: I'm looking forward to it. It's always fun seeing how people continue to successfully exceed what they were able to do previously. That's the best part, on some level, is just watching it continually iterate until you're at a point where it just becomes, well frankly, either ridiculous or you flame out or it hits critical mass and suddenly you launch an entire TV network or something.Jon: Stay tuned. Maybe I will.Corey: You know, it's always interesting to see how that entire thing plays out. Last question before we call it a show. Talk to me about your process for building content, if you don't mind. What is your process when you sit down and stare at—at least from my perspective—that most accursed of all enemies, a blank screen? “All right time to create some content, Jackwagon, better be funny. And by the way, you're on a deadline.” That is the worst part of my job.Jon: All right, so the worst part of your job is the best part of my job. I have to tell you, I actually don't—and I'm going to have to knock on wood because I don't get content block. I don't sit at a screen when I'm doing it. I actually will go for a walk or, you know, I'll have my weirdest ideas at the weirdest time, like at the gym, I might have a quick idea of something like that and I'll have a backlog of these ideas that I write down. The thing that I do is I come down, I open up a document and I'll just drop this idea.And I'll write it out as almost as it seems like a script. And I'll never read it verbatim because I look at it and be like, “I know what I'm going to say right now.” An example, if you take a look at my intros that I do for my podcast, they are done after the recording because I recap what we do on a recording.So, let's take this back. Corey will talk about the one you and I just did. And you and I we hopped on, we did a recording. Afterwards, I put together the intro. And what I'm going to say the intro, I have no freaking clue until I actually get to it, and then all of a sudden, I think of something—not at my desk, but away from my desk—what I'm going to say about you or the guest.An example, there was a gentleman I did his name's called Mat Batterbee, and he's from the UK. And he's a Social Media Finalist. And he has this beard and he always wears, like, this hat or something. And I saw somebody on Twitter make a comment about, you know, following in his footsteps or looking like him. So, they spoofed him with a hat and everything—glasses.I actually bought a beard off of Amazon, put it on, glasses, hat, and I spoofed him for the intro. I had this idea, like, the day before. So, thank goodness for Prime delivery, that I was able to get this beard ASAP, put it on. One take; I only tried to do one take. I don't think I've ever recorded any more.Corey: I have a couple of times sometimes because the audio didn't capture—Jon: Yeah.Corey: —but that's neither here nor there. But yeah, I agree with you, I find that the back-and-forth with someone else is way easier from a content perspective for me. Because when you and I started talking, on this episode, for example, I had, like, three or four bullet points I wanted to cover and that's about it. The rest of it becomes this organic freewheeling conversation and that just tends to work when it's just me free-associating in front of the camera, it doesn't work super well. I need something that's a bit more structured in that sense. So apparently, my answer is just never be alone, ever.Jon: [laugh]. The content that I create, like how-to tutorials, demos, reviews, I'll take a lot more time on them and I'll put them together in the flow. And I record those in certain sections. I'll actually record the demo of walking through and clicking on everything and going through the process, and then I will actually put that in my recording software, and then I will record against it like a voiceover.But I don't record a script. I actually follow the flow that I did and in order to do that, I understand the product, so I'll dive deep on it, I'll figure out some of the things using keywords along the way to highlight the value of utilizing it. And I like to create these in, like, two to three minutes. So, my entire process of creating content—podcast—you know what we hop on, I give everybody the spiel, I click record and I say, “Welcome.” And I do the introduction. I cut that out later. We talk. I'll tell you what, I never edited anything throughout the entire length of it because whatever happens happens in his natural and comes across.And then I slap on an ending. And I try to make it as quick and as efficiently as possible because if I start doing cuts, people are going to be, like, “Oh, there's a cut there. What did he cut out?” Oh, there's this. It's a full-on free flow. And so, if I mess up and flub or whatever it is, I poke fun of myself and we move on.Corey: Oh, I have my own favorite punching bag. And I honestly think about that for a second. If I didn't mock myself the way that I do, I would be insufferable. The entire idea of being that kind of a blowhard just doesn't work. From my perspective, I am always willing to ask the quote-unquote dumb question.It just happens to turn out but I'm never the only person wondering about that thing and by asking it out loud, suddenly I'm giving a whole bunch of other folks air cover to say, “Yeah, I don't know the answer to that either.” I have no problem whatsoever doing that. I don't have any technical credibility to worry about burning.Jon: When you start off asking and say, “Hey, dumb question or dumb question,” you start being unsure of yourself. Start off and just ask the question. Never say it's a dumb question because I'll tell you what, like you said, there's probably 20 other people in that room that have the same question and they're afraid to ask it. You can be the one that just jumps up there and says it and then you're well-respected for it. I have no problem asking questions.Corey: Honestly, the problem I've got is I wish people would ask more questions. I think that it leads to such a better outcome. But people are always afraid to either admit ignorance. Or worse, when they do ask questions just for the joy they get from hearing themselves talk. We've all been conference talks where you there's someone who's just asking the question because they love the sound of their own voice. I say, they, but let's be serious; it's always a dude.Jon: That is very true.Corey: So, if people want to learn more about what you're up to, where's the best place to go?Jon: All right, so the best place to go is to follow me on LinkedIn. LinkedIn is my primary one, right? Jon Myer; can't miss me. At all. Twitter, I am active on Twitter. Not as well as Corey; I would love to get there one day, but my audience right now is LinkedIn.Else you can go to jonmyer.com. Yes, that's right, jonmyer.com. Because why not? I found I have to talk about this just a little bit. And the reason that I changed it—I actually do own the domain awsblogger, by the way and I still have it—is that when I was awsblogger, I had to chan—I didn't have to change anything' nobody required me to, but I changed it to, like, thedailytechshow. And that was pretty cool but then I just wanted to associated with me, and I felt that going with jonmyer, it allowed me not having to change the name ever again because, let's face it, I'm not changing my name. And I want to stick with it so I don't have to do a whole transition and when this thing takes off really huge, like it is doing right now, I don't have to change the name.Corey: Yeah. I would have named it slightly differently had I known was coming. But again, this far in—400 some-odd episodes in last I checked recorded—though I don't know what episode this will be when it airs—I really get the distinct impression that I am going to learn as I go and, you know, you can't change that this far in anymore.Jon: I am actually rounding so I'm not as far as you are with the episodes, but I'm happy to say that I did cross number 76—actually 77; I recorded yesterday, so it's pretty good. And 78 tomorrow, so I am very busy with all the episodes and I love it. I love everybody reaching out and enjoying the conversations that I have. And just the naturalness and the organicness of the podcast. It really puts people at ease and comfortable to start sharing more and more of their stories and what they want to talk about.Corey: I really want to thank you for being so generous with your time and speak with me today. Thanks. It's always a pleasure to talk with you and I look forward to seeing what you wind up building next.Jon: Thanks, Corey. I really appreciate you having me on. This is very entertaining, informative. I had a lot of fun just having a conversation with you. Thanks for having me on, man.Corey: Always a pleasure. Jon Myer, podcaster extraordinaire and content producer slash creator. The best folks really have no idea what to refer to themselves and I am no exception, so I made up my own job title. I am Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry, insulting comment telling me that I'm completely wrong and that you are a very interesting person. And then tell me what company you wrote a check to once upon a time.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Jon: You are listening to the discussion questions for the episode God is Constant. 

Jon: You are listening to the discussion episode for the story; we all need help.

Jon: You are listening to the discussion episode for the story, Love Your Enemies. 

John Brooks is the co-founder and CEO of Momentum Realty, one of the fastest growing real estate brokerages in northeast Florida. He is a coach, mentor, recruiter, and lender who has recruited a list of solid producers at Momentum Realty. In today's episode, John will discuss how his journey into the industry and vision has evolved over time, and provide listeners with valuable advice on how to become a successful agent. John's passion for helping others is evident in his dedication to sharing his knowledge and experiences, which is sure to inspire those looking to start or continue their real estate journey.   [00:00 - 10:01] Opening Segment John shares a little bit of his background co-founder of Momentum Realty State of real estate in Jacksonville Different models for success   [10:02 - 22:20] Thriving in the Real Estate Space The “soft spot” in the industry Agents not maximizing their online listings Online leads is not necessary to generate business Building relationships with your target market is key Systematizing content and creating connections with your audience It takes time to develop a following and credibility in the real estate industry Personal development is key to success  Moving forward through one's motivation   [22:21 - 34:00] Personal Development The importance of personal development and how to stay sharp Listening to podcasts  Reading books We talk about the importance of attending events Creating relationships, and the information at the event Focusing on creating a collaborative environment    [34:01 - 50:21] Executing the Vision Jon shares how he experiments with tweaks Jon's working structure Spending 10% of your income on your education   [50:22 - 58:57] Gaining Momentum Consistency as a key in maintaining momentum How to best help a newcomer in real estate Assessing their strengths and weaknesses  Coming up with a business plan based on those findings  Reviewing their profit and loss.  Using a strengthsfinder Having a full business plan that takes data and analysis to account Determines what the profit goal for the year should be   [58:57 - 65:29] How to be successful in the real estate industry? Final words See links below to connect with Jon     You can connect with Jon through Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook, or you can visit Jon@movewithmomentum.com.   SUBSCRIBE & LEAVE A 5-STAR REVIEW as we discuss real estate excellence with the best of the best!     Join our community at www.tracyhayespodcast.com   Email Tracy.Hayes@jethl.com to get in touch with me Connect with me on Facebook and LinkedIn. Check out Jet HomeLoans, LLC and get top-flight resources and first-class service in buying your house!       Quotes:   "It's an easy way to get free business. You don't need to buy online leads. You can do an open house and have 40 buyers walk through it right now if it's at the right price point." - Jon Brooks   "When you're out there coaching and talking to these people, you have to be confident. You have to know your stuff, and then you have to actually be able to put it out and explain it to them." - Jon Brooks   "You have to go out and find the other stallions to hang with, to surround yourself with those people." - Jon Brooks    

Jon: You are listening to the discussion episode for the story “Follow God and be Loyal.”

Jon: You are listening to the discussion episode for the story, “Jesus has Risen.”

Jon: You are listening to the discussion questions for the Episode titled, “There is a God.”

Jon: You are listening to the discussion prompts for the episode, A Change of Heart.

Presented by Ferret: Ferret is the first relationship intelligence tool for all business savvy investors to know, for the first time, who they can trust Click Here to jump to the top of the waitlist. Presented by Gorgias: Gorgias is the #1 helpdesk for Shopify, Magento and BigCommerce stores, and can turn your customer support into a profit center.If you're looking to increase your retention for your business, mention Consumer VC and get 2 months of Gorgias for free. Click Here to get started. Thank you Ben Jang for the intro to our guest today, Jon Sebastiani, founder of Sonoma Brands and Krave Jerky. Sonoma Brands is a private equity firm focused on the growth sectors of the consumer economy. Krave was one of the first better for you beef jerky brands on the market. Jon is the first founder we've had on this show that not only scaled and sold his company to a strategic, but also reacquired the company. Some of the questions I ask Jon: You're a fourth generation wine maker, and was president of Viansa winery. Why did you decide to become an entrepreneur and focus on beef jerky? What were your first steps when you decided to start the brand? When did you realize Krave was gaining traction? What were some of the things you did right or went your way that led to Krave's success? Looking back, what were some of the mistakes that you made? How did the sale to Hershey come about? Why did you decide to create Sonoma Brands? Why do you decide to focus on the growth stage instead of early stages? What's different creating and scaling a brand now vs. when you did it with Krave? What are elements you look for in businesses? What is the opportunity investing in consumer brands? Why did you buy Krave back? What are current trends you're passionate about? Do you only look at single category businesses? How do you think about growth vs. profitability? Is there a trend that you think is misunderstood? As an investor what is a good exit? What's one thing you would change about venture capital? What's one book that inspired you personally and one book that inspired you professionally? What's the best piece of advice that you've received? What's one piece of advice for founders?

Jon: You are listening to the discussion episode for the story A Dangerous Prayer.

Jon: You are listening to the discussion questions for the episode, “Share Jesus' Story.”

Where they stop, we begin We're on a mission to help one million people RISE by 2030 - join the movement at www.myrise.co.uk People sometimes ask me about local facilities. Places that could be viewed as our ‘competition'. And are surprised that I'm complimentary about them. Often because they (the other facility's owners / staff) love to slag us off

In this episode I give a quick recap of my interview with Jon Baker including: - The biggest myths about introverts- Why he doesn't believe in goals and what to do instead-  How to understand introversion and improve productivityAnd so much more...  Driven by his desire to expose the talent of quieter businesspeople, Jon Baker has become known for activating introverts.With his quietly confident attitude to challenges and vision of balanced teams, alongside his enthusiasm for action and helping others, Jon inspires business leaders to take action.His business growth and networking knowledge combined with leadership experience allows Jon to show leaders how to change their habits and get more from their introverts.Go to www.introvertinbusiness.co.uk to connect with Jon*************************************************************You will never maximize your potential on your own so I'm personally inviting you to come and join me in the private Extraordinary Man Facebook group so you can level up your business and your life. Just Click Here to join the Extraordinary Man private Facebook group. Iron sharpens iron and this is the #1 place for you to connect with me and other like minded men who are on a mission to maximize their potential. My goal is to help you become the man God created you to be in all areas of your life. So come and join us in the Facebook group and upgrade your business and your life.

Driven by his desire to expose the talent of quieter businesspeople, Jon Baker has become known for activating introverts.With his quietly confident attitude to challenges and vision of balanced teams, alongside his enthusiasm for action and helping others, Jon inspires business leaders to take action.His business growth and networking knowledge combined with leadership experience allows Jon to show leaders how to change their habits and get more from their introverts.In this episode, we discuss:- The biggest myths about introverts- Why he doesn't believe in goals and what to do instead-  How to understand introversion and improve productivityAnd so much more...  Go to www.introvertinbusiness.co.uk to connect with Jon*************************************************************You will never maximize your potential on your own so I'm personally inviting you to come and join me in the private Extraordinary Man Facebook group so you can level up your business and your life. Just Click Here to join the Extraordinary Man private Facebook group. Iron sharpens iron and this is the #1 place for you to connect with me and other like minded men who are on a mission to maximize their potential. My goal is to help you become the man God created you to be in all areas of your life. So come and join us in the Facebook group and upgrade your business and your life.

Product descriptions may seem straightforward, but if done right they can significantly improve conversion rates. Today Jon explains why product descriptions are one of the most effective changes you can change to your website and how to write great product descriptions that will convert. The article Jon mentioned on how to write production descriptions that sell: https://thegood.com/insights/product-descriptions/ TRANSCRIPT: Announcer: You're listening to Drive and Convert, a podcast about helping online brands to build a better eCommerce growth engine, with Jon MacDonald and Ryan Garrow. Ryan: Jon, you recently wrote an article that kind of put my head in a spin around product description. Jon: Sometimes that's too easy. Ryan: I know. Spinning my brain's not necessarily the most difficult thing to do if you're in the space, but you wrote an article about product descriptions and how they can significantly improve conversion rates. And that surprises me because I personally ignore those all the time and I focus on other aspects of marketing and driving traffic as per usual. But that for me, is kind of like a side, just put it in there. As long as it's in there and then we can manipulate it going into Google shopping, where it's going to have an impact on your traffic. Just get something in there, period. Obviously I was wrong on this in my opinion. And I'm probably not alone in that. I'm excited today, Jon's going to school us on product descriptions and what you should be doing as an eCommerce business to leverage that to improve conversion rates. Jon, kick us off, explain at a high level, of all the things you could be focusing on on your site, why product descriptions in your mind, are one of the top things you can be doing to improve conversion rates? Jon: Yeah well, I think you basically just said it best in your tee up here where a lot of people just don't pay attention to this. And I think it's really, really forgotten. And that's a challenge in that as you're optimizing websites, it's one of the first places we go because most people forget about it. But look, we've learned over a decade of running AB tests on hundreds of product detail pages that optimizing your product descriptions is just one of the highest return, lowest investment improvements that an eCommerce manager can make. And look, they're key part of your potential customer's decision making process. I think the stat that my team here at The Good always says is that 87% of consumers rate product content extremely or very important to deciding to buy. Ryan: Wow. Jon: 87%. Ryan: Way higher than I would've thought. Jon: Right. Well, that's exactly the problem is most people don't think about this. And so if you're not optimizing product descriptions, you're certainly leaving money on the table. That's why you should focus on this. Ryan: If we're going to improve it, if we just assume that for example, my product descriptions are just terrible because I didn't focus on them, what are the areas I need to be looking at as I'm staring at my product description? And where do I start? I guess would be the best question. Jon: Well, I think there's four main areas that everyone should be focusing on and we can chat about today, but we can break these down. But the first is the real job of a product description. Most people think the real job of the product description is something that it's not. And we'll dive into that a little bit. The second is that it's an effective product description template needs to be used, so we can talk about what goes into those and what items you need to check the box to really make it great. And then how to write one that converts. It's not just having the content, you need to also be thinking about how you're writing that content. And then we can really talk about frequently asked questions around the product descriptions that I get, because I get a lot of questions about it. Once we start optimizing, people start thinking about it, a lot more questions come up than you might imagine. Partly, that's why we're doing the show today, it makes your head spin a little bit. That means there's a lot of questions there and you're not alone in that really. Maybe we can just break those four down and discuss each pretty briefly. Ryan: Yeah, I'm excited for it. What's the real job of a description of a product? In my mind, it's to describe the product. It's a blue t-shirt, congratulations. Jon: Yeah, right, exactly. If you just said blue t-shirt, how many sales do you think you're going to get? Let's just poke a hole in the idea that the job of the eCommerce product description is just to describe the product. I think that that's not right. Given the name, it makes sense that most folks think this, but product descriptions aren't there to just describe what's on your eCommerce site. They're also there to qualify. Do they help your visitors quickly assess, is this for someone like me? Do they persuade? Is it a compelling description? Is it customer centered on the reasons they should be considering that product? And then it's also there to surface. And what I mean by that is to help people find the product. This is the third one on purpose because a lot of people will stuff keywords throughout in terms of search engine optimization in optimizing the product description, but look, SEO keywords and search terms, and if you use those in a natural way, you'll get the page to show up and you want it to show up in search engine or even Amazon results if you're talking about optimizing your product descriptions on Amazon, which should also be done. Here's really one way to really think about this, product descriptions are a bit like your 24/7 in store retail associate for your online store. We often talk about if you wouldn't do something in a retail store, don't do it on your website. Let's take that analogy a step further and say, "How would associate talk about the product?" If you walked into a store and said, "Hey, I'm looking for a t-shirt," what questions are they going to ask to help you find the right one in that store? As a virtual retail associate, the product description can have that same kind of impact. And if it does its job well, it's going to draw visitors to your goods and then increase the conversions on those. And if it's done poorly, it's just going to frustrate visitors and push them away and hurt sales. It's very, very similar. Ryan: I like that. I think a lot of people, at least in what I think through is I don't think about qualifying. I'm like, you got to my page, you click on my products from Google shopping, you saw the price, just go buy it. And then if I'm in the jar looking at the label in the wrong way, from that perspective and I step out, I realize, okay, well I know conversion rates on shopping traffic is generally lower than category page traffic and so I'm like, oh well, possibly because my category is doing a better job describing a product or qualifying that person coming in and I'm just leaving that there rather than pulling it through and looking at qualifying them. Jon: Yeah. You're not alone on that. A lot of brands look at a category page as an opportunity to convert. I look at a category page as an opportunity to help somebody to the next step in the funnel, which is get them to that product detail page. And that's where you can really convert and sell and make sure people are getting the right product for them. Ryan: Okay, I concur. Tell us then okay, once I decide that it's more than just describing a product, what's a template look like that's going to help me through creating this product description that is going to be more than just describing my product? Jon: I love when I can change minds. And I'm glad we're helping do that today. All right. Ryan: We are. Jon: Again, here. Ryan: I'm taking notes. Jon: There are a handful of bullet points of things that you want to ensure are included. First of all, you need a descriptive headline. Use a product title that's going to hook your audience. Bonus points if you can connect with them emotionally. We don't want blue t-shirt, we want the t-shirt that makes your dad bod look hot. Ryan: I'm getting those ads on Instagram, by the way. I'm like, no, this is terrible. Jon: Ryan's looking good today in his shirt, by the way. All right. Benefits focused paragraphs. Use a descriptive paragraph to explain why, and I mean exactly why the customer benefits from the product. Too many people talk about features and that's it, they're just bullet point features and then don't talk about the benefits. You know how I led with the t-shirt that's going to make your dad bod look hot? That's what we want to be talking about here. What's the benefit? Not that it's a blue t-shirt. Yeah, that might be in there, but what's the benefit of wearing that t-shirt? The other thing we want to have in here is a key benefits list. Follow that description with a bulleted list of product features and benefits and this is where you can get into those details that if somebody is just skimming, they're going to look at that list. You're really what you're doing here is you're providing the benefits in a paragraph, maybe even telling a little bit of a story could be really helpful there. Don't make it too long. But then if somebody really wants, just give me the details. I already know I want a blue t-shirt, I just am deciding between two or three different ones and they want to know the specs and the features, that's where they're going to go is the bullet list. Don't bury those in the paragraph. The paragraph should be, hey, here's the benefits to you. If you want to know the features and the details, look at the bullet list that comes next. And then the fourth thing is, add some additional motivations. Really what we're trying to do here is just minimize those remaining purchase hurdles. Will it fit? Do others like it? Do things like credibility, social proof, you can bake in product reviews or even urgency. And of course, make sure you have a clear call to action. So many brands, we talk to have four buttons to add to cart and it's like, oh, you can use quad pay, after pay. You could use Amazon checkout. You could use both. And it's like, just give them one button and then push that to the next step. Get them to commit and then ask them how you want to pay. Ryan: Because my brain goes in funny directions when you say urgency, can you explain what that means from you, your perspective? Because it's probably not the little popup thing on Shopify that says, "Hey Bob in New York just bought this and Suzie in Florida just bought. Jon: You know me well. Ryan: Because I guarantee you don't like that one because I don't like that one. Jon: Yeah, nobody likes that. Ryan: And I don't have as many dislikes as you. Jon: I call that one of those wildfire apps and I call it wildfire because they just spread without anyone knowing how it started or why it's spreading. Ryan: Yeah, my competitor's probably doing it so I did it, and that's the worst way. Jon: And you don't see those apps as much anymore, a couple years ago, it was really popular and then everyone installed it and they realized this isn't doing anything. And also half of the companies using it are aligned about who's purchasing what, they all had Bob from Waco, Texas and it was kind of like you see Bob from Waco, Texas. Ryan: That guy shops on every site and I've been on. Jon: Exactly. And you're kind of like, that's the default it gives you. Here's the other thing. I really think what you need to be thinking about here in urgency is stock levels. And I'm not talking about lying. I'm saying, okay, only a few left. And what I mean by few? Well, I have two or three and you'd better buy it right away or it's going to go out of stock. There's some great tools, especially if you're on platforms like Shopify that are great apps that will do dynamic badging around quantity left so it can pull your quantities and do a dynamic image overlay on your product images. It will put a badge up in the corner that says, "Two left, one left," whatever. That's what I'm talking about with urgency. Or something like, hey free shipping. You're doing an offer, not a discount. When I talk about urgency, I'm not talking discounts as you know quite well. There could be some offers. It could be, right now it's a buy one, get a free gift. There's a whole litany of offers you can do that are not discounting and so I think when I'm talking about urgency, I'm talking about those type of items. Ryan: And so generally if you're a brand that has just tons of inventory, you have to focus more on getting creative and incentivizing without discounting to get that purchase from the product page. Jon: Right, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Create urgency if it's necessary. The other thing we see perform really well in terms of urgency is if it's out of stock to sign up to get notified when it's in stock. We have a client we've worked with for years, that is a really well known Japanese outdoor brand, outdoor camping high end. And what we have done for them over the years is help refine their out of stock notifications. They have some products that never are in stock because as soon as they send out that out of stock notification, they burn through their stock again. And I'm not talking that they only get five or 10 in, no, they get thousands. But the thing about it is, is that consumers have all signed up for this list and they want these products. We say, "Hey, you want this product? Sign up to be notified." And then we send out on an email and that email goes out, "Back in stock, click here to buy it," adds it right to the cart and they're able to purchase. And then before it even ever hits the site and it changes the product detail pages show how much stock is left, it's gone within hours. Ryan: Geez. Yeah, I'm going to test pre-sale. I'm going to say, "Hey, this new blend from Joyful Dirt's coming out, we're going to start advertising it and pre-sell it on social so we can start demand, figuring what demand looks like, what our production runs need to look like." Jon: That's a great idea. Ryan: And hopefully there's a lot there, but if not, they were like, "Yeah, we're only going to produce a few hundred. We'll be fine." Okay, so what else do we need to be considering what's average eCom business owner not going to be thinking about that you know that they don't even know to ask? What don't I know that I should know. Jon: Well, I think there's some simple questions that need to be answered. Let's look at this as maybe I don't know, questions that somebody doing a natural deodorant product might have. You need to think about this, who's the customer? That's always the first one, who's the potential customer? When you're starting to write this, you need to be thinking about that first. Let's say here, it would be men and women who are fed up with chemical packed deodorants. Just being a normal deodorant and saying, "Hey, people who don't like to stink," that's not going to be good enough. What's your differentiating point? The second is, what problems does it solve? This is where you can get into it helps keep them stink free. The potential customer is not the problem, it's what pain are you solving for them that is a little bit deeper than the surface level? And then the problem it solves is really the high level okay, people buy deodorant for this main reason. But the differentiating point is what's going to define that potential customer. Then you get into what desires does it fulfill? For this theater and it would be something like feeling healthier, more responsible towards their bodies and the planet, maybe just feeling less dirty and smelly. They could be that generic. And maybe they've been fertilizing their garden all day with a Joyful Dirt and now they don't want to come back into the house and smell. And then you need to be thinking about what objections people have. And this is where it's like, hey, why are you using a natural deodorant? Or maybe other natural deodorants just don't seem to work or they lie about the ingredients. Those are all types of things you should really be thinking about there. The next question you really want to ask yourself is why you? Why your brand? Compared to the other guys, why does this deodorant actually work? And then last of all, definitely not least, but you really want to think about what words your consumers are using so you can mirror what they're looking for there. And this is great, this is where user research can really come in, just interviewing consumers, doing some user testing, for instance so when they talk about what words they use, things like natural, fresh, perhaps scent or confident, and those are words that you can bake into your product description. They're going to write it for you. And if you go and you answer all of these questions in an outline, kind of like I just did where I answered each question a little bit about deodorant, you'll have most of your product description written and then you can move on from there. Announcer: You're listening to Drive and Convert, the podcast focused on eCommerce growth. Your hosts are Jon MacDonald, founder of The Good, a conversion rate optimization agency that works with eCommerce brands to help convert more of their visitors into buyers, and Ryan Garrow of Logical Position, a digital marketing agency offering pay per click management, search engine optimization and website design services to brands of all sizes. If you find this podcast helpful, please help us out by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts and sharing it with a friend or colleague. Thank you. Ryan: I know though, pictures are worth more than words and so do you consider the images on the side of a product description as part of the description? Or is that different entirely? And that's a whole nother conversation around the images? Or do you use them together? Jon: I think it's a whole nother conversation, quite honestly. Although people say a picture's worth a thousand words, I think that's true. And that's why pictures, we should do a whole nother episode on that because I do think it matters. And I think that there's a lot of things out there that you could be doing. I think on model, off model, 360, in use, size comparison. You really got to be thinking about all the different types of images that you could be doing. And a lot of brands will focus on the words, because a lot of consumers will go to the words and with one good photo you can still get them to convert. But after that, you really need to dive in and start thinking about all the other photos that you could do. And that's a ripe opportunity for optimization as well for sure. Ryan: Got it. You've done a lot of obviously user testing and listen to a lot of people go through the process of buying, are there certain types of people that are only going to pay attention to image and some that only pay attention to the words and that's just is a personality or a person? Or is it everybody's taking all that information in together? Jon: I think that as humans we're visual, but there are some people who will, if you have a video, they're just going to watch the video and they're going to skim. This is really huge on B2B websites where you want to bake in video because what's going to happen, meaningful video, Telling you about the product and walking you through it, et cetera, because consumers are going to just scroll until they find video and then watch that video while they're doing something else like on a bus or in traffic or eating lunch. I just did that. I was evaluating some software for our business, for The Good, over lunch and I was eating lunch, watching product videos. I didn't want to read about it. I just wanted to sit there and watch the video. I just put it on one and a half speed and then go. And I think that's a lot of people will do that. And I think in terms of images, it's similar. A lot of people will get that content from the images, but they're not going to get all the features and benefits that way. They're really not. People still need the bullet point list to see all of the features. People who are going to be watching the video, looking at the images, that's where they're going to start and if you don't get it right there, they're not even going to go on to read the bullet list. It is important for a segment of the audience for sure. Ryan: I think of product descriptions kind of like I think of one on my website and I think of the one on the Amazon and I probably put more time into the Amazon one, but I have more volume on Amazon right now. And so, but Amazon has multiple areas for information. You get the top there's image and then a short description and then you go down and you have A plus content and the expanded descriptions. And now that I think about it, a lot of websites have that same type of feel built out around them. Are you seeing a lot of focus needing to be on the short snippet, kind of at the top, more than at the bottom? Because sometimes the descriptions I see, especially on B2B, all the spec tab that is really long and drawn out, you can tell people are just dumping information from an SEO perspective sometimes in there. Is there one area that's more important in all of that? Jon: Yes. I think in the concept of the description, this is what those towards the top of the page. Often you'll have images on the left and then all the product description content on the right. As you scroll down, you can take those bullet points we talked about earlier with the benefits and the specific features and that bullet list and break that down throughout the page. That's typically what I would recommend. Have the bullet point and if people want to dive into each one of those, so say you're talking about the deodorant as we talked about earlier and you want to look at the ingredients list. Well, you can say all natural ingredients as a bullet point. And then at the bottom you could start saying all natural ingredients and then you break out what those ingredients are and talk about the benefits of each and how it's truly all natural and it doesn't include, what is the big one? Aluminum or something that people don't like? I don't know. But I think, it's something like that where you would use the rest of the page to truly break it down. And that's where you can also inject some brand. And it's also where you should be injecting supporting content like blog articles. To me, too many brands put the blog on the homepage, so they have like this lineup of blog posts that nobody cares about on their homepage. The blog post is top of the funnel. It's great for getting people to your site. It's great for SEO for instance. But then if they're on product detail page and you send them back up the funnel, you need to make sure that it's done in a supporting fashion so that you're not just sending them right back to the top of the funnel for no good reason. What I mean by that is maybe you have a blog article all about those ingredients or a specific ingredient that you're using and you want to talk about why it's more superior and you need a 1,000 or 1,500 words. Well, that's not good for your product detail page, but it would be good to link to that and say, "Hey, want to learn more about this? Read this blog post about it." That's also going to help your SEO and Google find all of that content together. Ryan: Yeah, I think exactly zero times have I ever gone from a homepage trying to research a brand for a product and gone to the blog and be like, hmm, let me read some blogs. Jon: No, not going to happen. Ryan: Never happen. And I'm like, no, I'm here to buy a product or research the product, not read about how the product worked on X, Y, Z in these conditions. Jon: Yeah, but when you're on a product detail page and doing your research and you're far enough down that step, it might be relevant to some degree to know that it's there. Ryan: Awesome. No, obviously Jon you've broken down and torn apart a lot of product pages over your life. What are some of the questions that you've had clients ask you as they've gone through the process and tried to implement a lot of what you've talked about, even with your template? And are there any funny ones or when it makes sense that other people are probably going to be asking after they start doing this? Jon: Yeah. Yeah, you're right, I've probably broken down hundreds of thousands of these at this point. I don't know that might be exaggerating, but it is kind of like what's that movie with the kid where he's like, "I see dead people." That's me. I can't go down the internet and shop without seeing messed up product detail pages everywhere. It's just unfortunate side effect of my job. But I will say, I do love when we have a positive effect on those. And so I'm always happy to answer questions, but yeah, I do get some off the wall ones. I think the biggest one I get all the time is, can't I just copy my description from a competitor? It's working for them so why not? I hear that all the time. But I'm shocked I even have to answer this. But yeah, the short answer is no, you can't lift product descriptions from your competitors. Look, beyond the SEO challenges of that, meaning that it's going to be a challenge where Google sees the same as that content across two sites and then you're playing a really hard to win game because Google is going to pick one of them or when they do that, it's likely not going to be you because it knows that content has been on the other site longer and so that's what it considers the original source. Ryan: Now what about product descriptions from the supplier or the manufacturer? Especially if you've got a site with a 100,000 products on it. Jon: Well, you might want to evaluate why you have a site with a 100,000 products. Ryan: True. There's a lot of them out there. Jon: Yeah. I wonder how many of those are just dropped shipping, not doing that great. And that's why they're not doing that great. If you really want to be successful at something like that, you need to customize the heck out of it. And so you really do need to sit down and do this for all the products so it's not just the manufacturer description. Now you can base it on that manufacturer description, but don't copy and paste that because everyone else who's drop shipping that product is doing the same thing. Or on top of that, you're not really adding any additional value and I can promise you, most of those subscriptions are D level work. They're not even a passing grade in most cases. I think copying is a moral issue for me in addition to the SEO issue so it's two strikes you're out rule, really. Using the manufacturer, I think is the SEO role and ineffective. It's just a non-starter. Ryan: And I think that if you are in the eCommerce world and you are assuming something, you're going to lose. You never assume that this is working for a competitor because they're doing it and you think they're bigger than you. And you assume that somebody knows what they're doing. Obviously I have a wine and beer read business and you drink wine, if you read wine descriptions, those are generally written by somebody sitting at a desk at a winery that's coming up with weird terms. One of my friends owns a winery and I'm like, "Well, how'd you come up with your descriptions?" "Oh my wife and I started drinking wine and decided, let's start putting these things in there." You can't assume that, if it works it's on accident many times. Jon: I have a good friend who runs an agency that does nothing but branding and labels for wine and spirits brands and that is the number one challenge that they get from brands, their customers that they work with, is that those vineyards will send over the descriptions and they're like, this isn't going to fly, we got to help you optimize this. It's a challenge. It's not unique. They're like, you might as well just label it alcohol, alcohol from grapes. And that's always the joke. My friend is always just like, "You sent me this description. I'm just going to change it and say alcohol from grapes." Ryan: We're planting wine grapes right now. And I told my wife, it's like, "We're going to make some wine with it." She's like, "You think it's going to be good?" I'm like, "Probably not, but we're just going to call it Ryan's Yeast Juice. It's going to be great. It's going to sound like crap." Jon: When you gift me a bottle, I'll know. Ryan: Yeah, Ryan's Yeast Juice. That's actually why, I add grape juice with some yeast in it that sat in the bottle for too long, became alcoholic. Jon: Can't wait, can't wait. Ryan: I can't wait for my marketing to go, all the marketing energy I have, Ryan's Yeast Juice. I should probably trademark before it gets out. Jon: Yeah. Made with Ryan's fertilizer. How's that? Ryan: Yeah. Jon: Joyful Dirt line. Well yeah, I think the other question that I get a lot here is how long product descriptions should be. And I think it's not a one size fits all. It's long enough to be helpful, short enough to be digestible and depends on the product. A few quick sentences could work for your products or you may need to write 1,500 words, but I think it's something where you really need to understand your audience. Are they here quick? Are they deciding between a couple of things and want a feature list? Or should you put more effort into the story? Also, there's the brand aspect. There's a lot of brands who have a lot of fun with their product descriptions. And then there's a lot of brands who are just dry. That's just kind of their brand and you go from there. Ryan: Okay. Over the past, let's just keep it recent, three years, who would you say of companies you've at least seen their site, you don't have to work with them, probably did the best with their product descriptions? Jon: Yeah. Are you familiar with Chubbies? Ryan: I'm not. Jon: Ooh, okay. Chubbies is a men's, mostly men's clothing brand and they do some hilarious descriptions. They started out, I believe selling swim trunks. Ryan: Oh yeah. Yeah, now I remember. Jon: And it's now a bunch of other stuff, but they've always done some good work. I haven't looked at the site in a while, but they were pretty good one from back in the day. And I think, generally there's brands like OLIPOP and a few others like that who are new and are doing a really, really good job with it. I don't know if you've heard of OLIPOP. It's kind of like a new flavored seltzer brand. They do a really, really good job with it. I also think that there's a couple out there around more around eyeglasses, Felix Gray, things of that sort, that do a really, really good job. And I think that their biggest competitor is Warby Parker. And I think Warby Parker does a good job, but Felix Gray has really made their calling card being better content on the page. Ryan: Got it. Jon: The other one that I really like is Cards Against Humanity. I don't know if you've ever been to their site. Ryan: I love that game. It's the most inappropriate fairly game we've played with my in-laws. Jon: Okay, I was going to say, yeah, that could be awkward at best. Ryan: Oh it for sure is. Jon: They have a teenager version I've played with my cousins and I will tell you, that got awkward real quick too. But they have add on packs and all this other stuff and they do a great job with branding. And they have a couple of sentences, they'll say, "Hey, this is just," they'll be very quick. This is all about these topics. It's 300, but they'll inject some brand. They'll say, "All new absurd box contains 300 mind bending cards that came to us after taking peyote and wandering in the desert." And it's kind of like, that's funny and I know what I'm going to get is just weird random stuff. And then it's, they did in the bullet points. 300 brand new cards to mix into your game. This one's pretty weird. They're going to be weird, I get it. It's an expansion. It requires the main game. Now I'm like, okay, I get it. It's expansion pack. And you have nothing to lose, but your chains, I don't know what that even means, but that's what they're telling you. I think, it's on brand because it's super random. And I think that last bullet point is all meant to just demonstrate the randomness that you're going to get out of this pack. And then if you go down the page, they have a lot more info about and some samples and stuff, but that kind of gives you a good example there. Ryan: Thank you. That's awesome. Any parting words or places people need to be focusing and getting started on? Jon: Yeah, I think look, it's there's a simple formula that you can follow and too many brands don't even try to follow the formula. And if you go to The Good's website and on our insights or articles page, or just go to thegood.com/insights/product-descriptions, we have a really great article that breaks all of this down and more. Gives you ton of examples and it's a great way for you to just take the template we've got on there and start using that and applying it to your product descriptions and Ryan, it sounds like you may have some work to do, but it will get you a higher conversion. Ryan: I think I might. But thanks for the time, Jon. I appreciate it and educating me as always on how to make my site work better. Jon: All right. Well, I'm looking forward to seeing the results on that. Thanks for chatting today. Announcer: Thanks for listening to Drive and Convert, with Jon MacDonald and Ryan Garrow. To keep up to date with new episodes, you can subscribe at driveandconvert.com

Traffic sources can come from a number of places, but for most companies the largest source is Google. And things can get confusing when it comes to organic traffic versus paid ads.There are a number of things that can affect organic traffic and paid traffic in Google, and it can get confusing quickly. Today Ryan clears things up and tells you what does and doesn't work in Google, and focuses on what you can do with on-site SEO to improve your organic rankings. The site mentioned for checking your organic rankings: www.semrush.com TRANSCRIPT: Announcer: You're listening to Drive and Convert, a podcast about helping online brands to build a better e-commerce growth engine with Jon McDonald and Ryan Garrow. Jon: Hey Ryan. So traffic to a website comes from many different channels and avenues, as we all know. And for most companies though, that largest source is always Google, the infamous Google traffic source. Now, from previous conversations with you, I know that Google shopping, spend and traffic can have a really positive impact on organic traffic in Google. Which always has blown my mind when I've heard that, because I heard from you recently too, that there are several types of search engine optimization that can have an impact on paid search. Not just on on-page. So this really confused me, because I thought Google kept everything separate. You can't spend money to grow rankings within Google. You can buy your spot with an ad, maybe do some stuff around shopping to get surface there. But I wasn't aware that those two really correlated with organic. So I'm looking forward to hearing about how search engine optimization can help your paid search. And I guess more simply, what are you talking about? Can you fill me in on this? Ryan: Yeah. So I don't want to confuse people kind of with the title or how we're putting this out there, but you can't spend money on paid search to have Google increase your rankings. That's been a myth disproved multiple times over, and Google has been very, I think, above board in how that works. But we do know that spending more on shopping, where people discover your product more, they will come back and buy through organic and direct, and those channels will start producing more revenue. But what people I think overlook are the fact that there are two types of SEO that people need to be aware of. And you should always as a business owner be investing or planning to invest in both SEO and paid search. I don't think one is greater than the other necessarily long-term, but you need to have both. And the type of SEO that people talk about or think about when they say SEO is what we've been doing generally for 20 years, building our rankings in authority with back links that are of high quality, putting content out on the internet that Google recognizes as valuable and they will give you more authority. You spend now on SEO with that's either your time or money, hiring people to do that. And then four to six months you see the results in increased traffic. That's generally what people think about with SEO. What they tend to overlook is the SEO that gets results actually within two weeks of you doing it. And that's the on-site SEO work. And so there's things you can do on your site to improve it that when Google re-indexes that you will move up in rankings. And this type of SEO will help organic traffic, but also have an oversized impact on paid search. And so because it dabbles both of those buckets I like to focus on that SEO before I even go to the SEO that people normally think about. And so on-site SEO at its simplest form is improving your category pages for Google. Jon: Okay. So you're talking content, better imagery, things of that sort? Ryan: Yeah. The content, the tags, the titles, things on that site that Google indexes and sees have a lot of benefits around your website and traffic generally. And so, if you do a search for your product, and so if you sell Nike shoes and that's the broad search that has lots of traffic, you will notice on Google most of the organic results are for categories of Nike shoes. It's not one specific Nike shoe like a shopping ad would be. Because Google, based on that search, knows that you don't know which specific model you're looking for or if you're looking for men's or women's. You're looking for Nike shoes. And so often the high volume terms are going to be category pages that Google is going to be indexing and sending traffic to until people get more and more specific with their searches. And that's how people generally move down a funnel, is I gradually do my research... Forgot, okay. Now I know I need to be searching for men's Nike shoes. Then I see that page. I'm like, "Oh, I need to be searching for men's Jordan Nike shoes." And then I'm like, "I really want to search for Jordan 4 men's shoes." And then that's when I'm getting to more and more specific and even adding color onto that, and people will do that through a search funnel. But the biggest advantage is saying, "All right, I have this category page and I need to have a description on that page about what's on that page that Google can see." And it doesn't necessarily matter for searchers because if I'm searching for Nike shoes and I'm on a page of Nike shoes, I can see they're Nike, I can see they're shoes. I don't need to read that text to see it. And so putting that on there though will have an outsized impact on quick increase in rankings. And so I like to start this by telling people to go to SEMrush, or some site like that to be able to see what is Google doing with your organic site, how are you average ranking on there? There's some wonderful reports on SEMrush. It's the one I use because it's probably simple enough that we to dive into very, very quick. I don't get super deep on a lot of my analysis. I get high-level and figure out some strategy and then move off of that. But SEMrush has some great things they've done from an organic perspective. They scraped these results pages, and they know generally where you're ranking. Obviously you rank in different parts of the country differently, and search intent and my previous search history is going to impact my organic results. But generally we know that hey, you're ranking here on this keyword. And SEMrush also brings in the average volume of searches a month. And so to start to see where your site could have a quick impact on this, you go to SEMrush, click on your organic rankings, sort it by volume. And you'll start seeing where your site is ranking. So if you're ranking on number 70 for a term with 10,000 searches, you're still getting zero traffic because you're stuck somewhere on page seven. But it'll also show you which page is ranking there. And when you see that you're like, "Oh, this page is ranking for that. And I'm seeing the term 'Nike shoes' goes to my Nike shoe page. That's great." You can click it actually in SEMrush and pull it up. Very simple. And you can see there's nothing on that page other than my title that says, "Nike shoes," in text that the search engine can scrape and understand. And so you take those category pages and you write that paragraph of text. You maybe make sure that your title is short and appropriate for that search. You make sure the H tags on the site are appropriate for that, and it's not including random other characters or doesn't have your brand first. It doesn't have sizes first maybe, if you're looking at shoes. That information on your site will raise the ranking within two weeks. And it really depends on your competitors on what they've done or what they're doing. But within two weeks, you can assume that you're going to have more value to Google. They're going to raise you up there. And that's by no means a bad thing when you're getting quick results on SEO. Jon: Yeah. So if you're looking at all of this and I'm hearing from you that okay, do onsite for sure. But how does this affect paid search? I understand that you can't buy your listings. You can buy optimization of these pages, which is search engine optimization, and that could help you. But how is this going to affect your paid search? To me, it doesn't feel like it would. So that's what was kind of shocking. So yeah. Tell me more about that. Ryan: For Google ads, if you're running text ads there's something that Google has called the Google quality score. That basically gives you three components. It says if you do well here, we're going to let you pay less than your competitors for the same search. So there's always a value having a higher quality score. It's one to 10 and there's three components. There's the expected click through rate. That's always relative to your competitors. And so somebody may come to me and think, "Well, I have a 7% click through rate. That's great. Right?" And I'm like, "No. There's no way of knowing that." It's based on your competitors and what are they getting. If Google knows that compared to your competitors you're getting a 7% click through rate on the same search term and they're getting a 10% click through rate, guess who Google wants coming up higher? Jon: Right. Just because it's more relevant to the searcher, and that's what they're understanding. And that's going to drive more money for Google in the end because more people will click on it. Ryan: Exactly. Jon: Okay. Yep. Ryan: Google makes decisions for themselves. They have shareholders, they need to make money, and that's fine. It's their platform. So the higher click-through rate is good. And then the ad relevance, so they're saying, "All right, does your ad have instances of the keyword that was searched in it?" We generally, horrible broad stroke, shoot for about three times in the ad, and the rest of the text in the ad doesn't have an oversized impact on the actual click rate. It's just you have it for Google, you're playing the game to get ranked higher. And then the other piece is the landing page and the quality of that landing page based on the search query. So Google can't see the actual image itself and decide is this image what they searched for. They can see the tags you put on the image, but the actual physical image AI is not actually determining is that actually what they searched for. And so that piece of content you're putting on your category or in Shopify, the collection page is telling Google what's on that page. And if you have that keyword in that content, Google is going to think this is a more relevant page to what they're searching and give you a benefit by lowering your cost per click through the increase of quality score. And it's a very easy thing to tie together and see the changes because quality score is reset every time somebody searches and every time your ad shows. And so if you make a change on the site to that description, today, and you see that I have a quality score of seven and you can break down the quality score components using columns in Google ads. And if you haven't done that before, you can get to all your keywords in the list in Google ads, that you're showing a text ad for, go to columns and ad quality score, and you can see, "All right, what's my click expect to click through rate, what's my ad relevance. And what's my landing page quality?" Jon: Okay. Ryan: And it'll tell you. You can either get below average, average above average. There's only three pieces to it. If you've got a lot of keywords, I like to push it down into an Excel pivot table. So I download it, put pivots on it- Jon: You love your pivot tables. Ryan: I love pivot tables. If you're running Google ads and you don't use pivot tables, you're wasting a lot of time. We still use Excel a lot in Google ads, but that can find really quick your below average landing page quality scores. And you can focus on those first, saying, "Okay, for whatever reason, this landing page, I'm getting dinged." And it's the largest component. It has about six of your 10 points associated with it. So moving from below average to above average can give you a significant boost and you're probably getting zero or very little traffic if you have a below average landing page score, Announcer: You're listening to Drive and Convert, the podcast focused on e-commerce growth. Your hosts are Jon MacDonald, founder of The Good, a conversion rate optimization agency that works with e-commerce brands to help convert more of their visitors into buyers, and Ryan Garrow of Logical Position, a digital marketing agency offering pay-per-click management, search engine optimization and website design services to brands of all sizes. If you find this podcast helpful, please help us out by leaving a review on Apple podcasts and sharing it with a friend or colleague. Thank you. Jon: Optimizing your site increases your quality score, which then helps you get more visitors and makes your ads more effective because it's going to be ranked higher in that list. So if you're on the search results page and there's three items, the one that comes first has the higher quality score. It's not just how much you bid, or is it how much you bid and the quality score? What other factors might come in there? Ryan: It's both. Jon: Okay. Ryan: Yeah. Google keeps a little bit of a black box in play. But they say it's the ad rank, which generally we know is the bid and the quality score going into play. And so the highest on the list is not always bidding the most. You could actually pay less per click and being ranked higher, generally. I guess it's not always the case, but generally the higher up you are in rank on that first page of Google, the more you're the more clicks you're going to get. The higher your click-through rate. And you obviously want more of the traffic if you're bidding on the keyword. And so improving the site experience for a Google perspective, and we're not talking about... Unfortunately sometimes for Google is not always best for the user. But you got to get the traffic to be able to determine if it's good for the user. So get the traffic from Google by increasing what Google thinks of the site. And often it's a pretty simple implementation to get this text on there. It's not tremendously complicated. I don't think you need to have a master's degree in onsite SEO to be able to do this. I've done it on a lot of my own sites and it's just having something there is better than nothing. And using general logic is saying, "Okay, I'm writing this for the search engines, not necessarily the user. So I want to make sure I have the right density." It's got to read in normal English because people are still going to see it, even if they're not reading it. But just get it on the site. And most small sites that don't have this are going to be on Shopify, just from a numbers perspective. We know they have over a million people using it. And so on Shopify this is the Collections page. And when you're putting that description in on your collections, in fact, I was just talking to a company that I'm helping advise in this area, and the business owner had all the descriptions already put on there, but they weren't showing on their Shopify site. Well that's interesting. And so we've dug into it and it's the theme. The Shopify theme she's using doesn't pull those descriptions in by default. And so some themes do it and some don't. So if you put it in there and your theme doesn't have that when you go to the collection page, you need to get a developer to force that theme to show it. And if you have a choice, put it below the product results on that category or collection page. If you don't have a choice, just get it on there. It's going to be fine. I haven't seen a meaningful increase or decrease yet on putting that continent in there on conversion rate. Jon: I was going to say, is there a... Thinking about my conversion rate hat, of course, as always, is there a better consumer experience when you think about that? Is having that content higher on the page, lower on the page near the products, things of that sort. Does that seem to matter? Ryan: I haven't seen it, but obviously I haven't done as much broad research on that. That's probably something in your bucket of skillset to look at that. And all right, on these Shopify sites where it defaults to above the fold or above the product results, do we see a change one way or the other when we move it below? My gut tells me I want to see the products first and most of the time when I go to a site, I'm not reading a bunch of texts when I'm searching for a product. I want to go right to the products and see which product makes sense based on the images I'm seeing and the titles of those products. But there probably needs to be some testing for most sites around that. But I would say if you don't have it there above or below, you're probably not getting very much traffic on it from a paid perspective. So you just need to get it, even if it's above the products, because now you don't even have- Jon: Done is better than perfect. Ryan: Yes. That's most of my method of business based on my business partners. We're just going to do it and we're going to make choices as we go, because if we're not moving forward, we're not going to make any decisions at all. Jon: And this is slightly unrelated, but I would say that a lot of our success at The Good has been purely because we just keep making decisions. And we know we're going to make bad ones along the way, but we're doing the best we can. You just keep moving forward, just keep taking those steps. And that, really, I think has been a competitive advantage. Or at least over just business in general, it's really helped us. And I think that's, that's a challenge I see. We talk a lot about all of these different optimizations you can do, and just getting it done, taking that step is 99% better than a lot of your competition. Ryan: For sure. Jon: A lot of them just aren't even taking the steps that we're talking about. So even if you don't take all of them, just take one. Like go to SEMrush today and look at these organic results and have a list of these opportunities and then fix them. And you're going to be 99% ahead, being armed with that data and having a good understanding of what to do next. And even if you're not running ads, because then when do run ads, you'll be well ahead of the game. Ryan: Yeah, exactly. I think it's always better to take two steps forward and one step back than it is to try to plan the best step perfectly the first time out. I know I'm going to make mistakes in business. That's fine. I don't care. As long as it's not a crippling business killing decision, I'm willing to make all of those. Jon: Which 99 out of a hundred couldn't be. They're small enough decisions that you just got to do it. And if you go to SEMrush and you follow their instructions or the recommendations, is there a chance that that kills your business? Unlikely. It's very unlikely. So what do you have to lose? You just got to put the time in and do it. Ryan: Exactly. And that's for most business owners, it's going to come down to a time-money thing. If you've got more time than money, which smaller businesses generally do, you're going to do some of this work yourself and figured out the hard way. If you've got a little more money than that, you're going to hire an agency to go do some of that work for you. And that's what I advise a lot of businesses to start. I was like, "Look, if you've not done this before, and you're really worried about making a bad mistake, hire an agency to do very small amounts." So you can see the model that they're using. And I even tell them, Logical Position for a thousand bucks, we will put six category pages together for you and do the work from the titles, descriptions, all that stuff. And you can then see, "Oh, that's actually not that complicated I see it where you put it in there, I see how it got on there. I see the keywords you used. Great. I can go build out the next 15 of these to help those all increase and then by that time, I might have enough money to pay for more paid search because I'm seeing organic traffic increase." Jon: This is why I tell people all the time when I send them to Logical Position, it pays to work with a partner that is large enough that they have an SEO focused team and a paid team because these things work together so well. And they need to be talking to each other. You can't just go off and do these SEO things and then not have your paid team aware of it. Because as we found out today, that's going to affect your quality score. And so not only could you get some increase in organic rankings pretty quickly by doing some basic SEO stuff, if you're not doing that, but then you can also do some off-site stuff that builds for a longer term. You were saying about four to six months, roughly. And then on top of that, you can be affecting your quality score. So what I've learned today is, okay, you still can't pay Google to list higher organically. Okay, that's a bummer, but I get it. I assumed that was the case. And so second, what I've learned is I need to get a better quality score if I'm ever going to run ads, because you need to make sure that quality score is high because I'm not going to pay a thousand bucks a click. But if I have a better quality score, I might pay a little less than that. Ryan: Some of your settings, you may get close. Jon: Let's just bury that one and keep it buried. Jon likes to waste money with his spend. But that's what I get for not talking to my friends before doing that. So look, I think there's a lot of great things here around things that every business of any size could be doing to really get more out of their paid media spend. Ryan: And just business in general, best practices, laying a solid foundation to build on for a brand. I think it's an easily overlooked one for a lot of brands that can have house sized impact for that time. I mean, writing a description might take you five minutes if you're the business owner and that five minutes could produce massive dividends on both SEO and paid search. Jon: On that, we'll leave it. It sounds like folks have some tasks to do that are pretty simple. Just need to put the time in to make it happen. Or if they don't have the time to give you a call and have your team at Logical Position make it happen for them. Ryan: Yeah. I'm looking forward to it. Let me know how I can help. Jon: All right, thank you there, Ryan. Appreciate it. Ryan: Thanks John. Announcer: Thanks for listening to Drive and Convert with Jon MacDonald and Ryan Garrow. To keep up to date with new episodes, you can subscribe at driveandconvert.com.

Larger companies get most of the press and excitement with their 6 and 7 figure marketing budgets, but the majority of clients we work with are smaller. And smaller companies have to do things a little differently than the big guys. What impact does a small budget have on driving traffic? How should small budget brands compete online? https://www.logicalposition.com/ TRANSCRIPT: Jon: Hey Ryan. So we get companies contacting us all the time, that don't have large, six or seven figure marketing budgets, and many times, those large clients get most of the press and excitement, but the majority of companies that end up investing in marketing are going to be smaller, and smaller companies have to do things a little bit differently. I want to ask you today, what impact does a small budget have on driving traffic and how do those small budget brands compete online? They obviously want to compete, they have to compete in order to grow, and I want to know what's the magic, how do they make that happen? I'm excited to talk to you about this today, and I guess I'll start pretty broad, in e-commerce, is there such a thing as too small of a budget? Ryan: Across the board as a broad general rule, no, but if you're really going to do something with your budget, then yes. I mean, you have to have enough budget to start moving things around and collecting data. And I think that initial starting budget, if you're a smaller business, is going to be important to determine how quick you can grow, how aggressive you can be, where are you going to find that opportunity to take the next step in the digital marketing evolution of your business? And I challenged a lot of business owners in this space, as I'm talking to smaller ones all the time. Like for example, yes, you can start with $100 a month budget, it's your money, and you can market it however you want, invest it however you want. But if you're e-commerce, you're e-commerce so that you can sell everywhere and have your online store open all the time, even when you're sleeping. And so if that's the case, $100 is not going to get you very far in marketing across the internet. And so if you're going to do something that small, you really need to be hyper, hyper, hyper-focused, which does limit your potential and opportunities to find little pockets where you can really dominate or win. And so I would generally say less than $1,000, there may be better places for your money than trying to drive traffic with it online. Jon: Interesting. I was going to ask, and maybe you've just answered, but I'd love your take on this too, if I only have $1,000 a month to spend, is it worth doing it or am I just throwing my money away, when we're talking about driving traffic through traditional paid media sense? Ryan: That's a difficult one because most business owners that are coming up with this $1,000 and you're smaller, that's a meaningful number to them probably, but they probably don't have the expertise to really make that $1,000 do as much as it can. And so you probably have to bring an expert in, and that costs money as well, because most people in the digital marketing world are not working for free. And so you have to figure in an expert generally, and I'll probably come back to that point, but for most businesses, I would say that you have to look at it through a lens of time and money. Jon: Okay. Ryan: Anybody can learn how to do digital marketing. You have to be able to study, you have to be able to go in and make some mistakes and learn it, but anybody can figure it out. It's definitely not the most complex thing you could be learning. But if you have more time, then you should be doing some of that work yourself and learning it and getting it to it like, "Can I get some basic things done?" If you have more money, than you need to hire people and your budget should probably be a little bit higher to be able to invest and push traffic. Jon: So we should be saying, when we say budget for today's conversation, should I be thinking about it as budget including the expert or budget just in what you would spend to drive traffic in these channels? Ryan: I think businesses should be looking at it together, but I think most business owners are thinking about, "Okay, I can spend $1,000 to drive traffic. Let's go put that on Google and make it work." I do believe though, the Googles in particular and I'll focus on Google for right now, but Google in particular has done some pretty cool things helping small e-commerce businesses get going. If you've got a feed and you're on a smaller platform, like if you're on Shopify, it's very, very simple to get up and running on Shopify and get your products going to Google. And then there's what Google is calling smart shopping campaigns that allow a business really to say, "Google, here's how much I'm willing to spend per day, and here's the goal I need to get out of it." It does not take an expert to get that up and running. And in fact, I tell companies, do not pay an agency to manage smart shopping campaigns because there's nothing to do. It can be a small piece of an overall structure, in fact, we at Logical Position do use smart campaigns in a small piece of a campaign occasionally, but we have to do a lot more work in the reporting and strategy on that type of client, to be able to justify charging management fees on smart campaigns. Jon: Okay. That makes sense. Ryan: Small budgets use more automation, I think, is the name of the game. Use things that are set up to make sure you don't just waste a bunch of money, and I think that's where a lot of small businesses, what keeps them from starting often is that fear of, "Oh my gosh, I'm going to go waste money trying to drive traffic because I don't know how to do it right." Doing some research, I think, can help keep that option to a minimum, that is just going to go out there and be a big waste. Jon: Let's say a company hasn't driven traffic on Google. How do they decide what that starting budget should be? Ryan: This generally comes down to, what's the business doing as a whole? If you're doing $100,000 a month on your website and you haven't been spending money, you probably have a larger amount you could start with then if I'm only doing $1,000 a month in sales. It's a threshold there of starting to look at it, but I generally say, in e-commerce, at least $1,000 to start with on Google. And then start thinking about it through a lens of, "I know I'm not going to be starting out at the gate if I'm doing it myself in a perfect world scenario." So there's going to be some learnings. I look at it through the lens of what's my light money on fire threshold, to let me get things going, and I've done this with new platforms on some of my brands. Nobody knew what they were doing yet, across the entire platform. Pinterest is being one of them. A couple years ago, it was just wide open. Nobody knew what it was going to do. I think they're getting some more structure in place and it's driving better traffic, but I went onto it saying, "Look, I don't know what it's going to do." My light money threshold at that point was, I think about 2,500 bucks, so I talked to Pinterest like, "Look, we can go a thousand a day for two and a half days if you want, or we can go $100 a day for about a month. I'm okay with either, whichever one you think is going to work better for me." And that was my light money on fire threshold, that I wasn't going to be mad, I was just like, "Yeah, that did suck, but I got some learnings." Pinterest didn't work for us at that point in time on that business, we'll continue to be revisiting it. But all that to come back around to it can't be a budget that if it doesn't work, it's going to tank your business, because there's a lot of unknowns if you haven't been on Google before, to how is your website going to convert, what traffic is going to work best for you. Because you'll take the same product with the same price for the same search query, going to two different sites and it's going to convert and there's going to be a different return on ad spend. And so with all of that unknown, anybody that tells you they know exactly what you're going to get by putting $1,000 out there, they're lying to you because there's no data to tell you one way or another. There's no way to know. Jon: Okay. So don't bet the farm. Ryan: Don't bet the farm, but it should probably make you a little uncomfortable. Jon: Okay. Ryan: When I'm looking at business decisions and I want to grow, and you know me, I tend to be on the aggressive side of things, I want what I'm risking to make me a little uncomfortable. I don't want it to be an easy decision or an easy thing to be like, "Okay." Could I have wasted $100 to test Pinterest? Yeah, but that was not an uncomfortable thing. 2,500 from me was a little bit uncomfortable. Partners and I talked through it and we're like, "Okay, if it returns nothing, that's not going to be great. But again, we're not going to lose the business because of a mistake if it doesn't work." So a little bit of uncomfort, I think, is good. Jon: Okay. So then let's say I have a thousand bucks, where do I start, Facebook, Google, something else? Ryan: I think generally it's going to come down to those two for most businesses to start off with. I think other platforms generally are younger and they are less proven and therefore generally higher up in the funnel. Like if you're going to jump right on TikTok or Snapchat for marketing and you haven't done Google or Facebook, I think it's going to be difficult to know if that platform is actually working for you, if you haven't gone to more advanced ones yet. And so when I talk to a business owner or a marketing team that's looking at deciding between both of those two to start, the easy way of looking at it as if there is existing market for your product, I generally say go to Google because you're going to capture people towards the bottom of the funnel as they're looking for your product. If you're creating a brand new category, there's not a lot of people searching for it on Google and so you're going to have to figure out how to create that and find the right audiences on Facebook and convince people to start trying you to build that search volume. So for example, last week I talked to a guy, his company makes edible bubbles and I'm like, "I have never heard of this before.'. Jon: Isn't that bubblegum? Ryan: Yeah. This is for kids going out and playing and blowing bubbles, he makes edible bubbles. And I had no idea my kids would want that until he sent me some samples and they're actually pretty cool. Jon: That's awesome. Ryan: But they actually make them for bars. Someday when we get to go back to a bar, they make these bubbles you can blow on top of a drink, and a lot of times they infuse them with smoke for presentations. Jon: That's cool. That's a great idea. Ryan: So really cool stuff, but there's not a target market yet that they know to search for that. So I, before last week, never would have even considered searching for the term edible bubble or edible bubble for a drink or bar drink presentation bubbles, that's just not even there. And so for that type of business, you've got to go on Facebook, you've got to target bartenders, you've got to target moms with kids, with the kid bubble one. And there's some really cool targeting on Facebook, and if you've got a good visual and some good offers, I think Facebook can work really well. For other businesses, Facebook generally will hit top of funnel like that, and so the return, again, generalizations, is going to be a little bit lower than if you had run some bottom funnel, Google stuff to figure out where people are searching for your product and what are your advantages and all of that. Jon: So we're talking the difference between perhaps intent versus awareness? Ryan: Yes. Like if there's already people searching with intent for your products or services, I would go capture them first. It's going to be a little more expensive per click, possibly, there's generally going to be more competition, but it's an existing demand that you're tapping into. You've just got to figure out how you're going to compete there. If you're creating a brand new product that nobody's ever searched before, you probably can't even spend your money on Google on search terms, you're going to be on broad match keywords on Google wasting money. Jon: Right. No, that definitely makes sense, then Announcer: You're listening to Drive and Convert, the podcast focused on e-commerce growth. Your hosts are Jon MacDonald, founder of The Good, a conversion rate optimization agency that works with e-commerce brands to help convert more of their visitors into buyers. Ryan Garrow, of Logical Position, the digital marketing agency offering pay-per-click management, search engine optimization and website design services, to brands of all sizes. If you find this podcast helpful, please help us out by leaving a review on Apple podcasts and sharing it with a friend or colleague. Thank you. Jon: What other things tactics do the smaller budgets need to be aware of? What else would you consider? Ryan: Some of the tactics I talked about when looking at smaller budgets on advertising and driving traffic, don't even have to do with the tactics to drive the traffic. A lot of small businesses, even over the last year with COVID and a lot of brick and mortar moving into online, a lot of them haven't thought about what is my advantage online? If you are selling the exact same product at the exact same price, and you have no discernible advantage over a competitor, what are you doing? Try to figure out, before you go spend money, why somebody is going to buy from you. And you can't really tell me that your advantage online is going to be because you have really smart salespeople inside, or you have a lot of knowledge in your industry, because that's not going to come across in Google shopping. Nobody cares how much you know, they don't know how much people know when they're just going to a website and transacting. And so you've got to figure out what that advantage looks like first. Why should somebody buy from you versus a competitor, if they've never met either one of you and all they're doing is seeing your website because the internet is the great equalizer and small companies can't compete with big companies, if they're better at certain things. Better at converting, if all of your competitors are stuck on really ancient Yahoo stores that are 20 years old, and you're going to come in there with a Shopify or a big commerce site, that's really easy to convert on. That can be a significant advantage, even if everything else is the same. Jon: It's funny, you say that, a friend and I were just talking about that and we were laughing, saying a great business model would be to just go to find a index of all the remaining Yahoo stores making over a million dollars a year and just replicate that on a better platform, with better usability and you would print money. Ryan: Why are we doing a podcast? Let's go get a list and start making business. But it's true. I think we still have 50 clients on Yahoo and some of them are, I think, are on the RTML, that really old coding platform, that if you're not 50, you've never even heard of that. And I only heard about it because we have clients on it. Jon: Yeah. Look, I mean, I think a lot of these stores take the approach of, if it's not broke, don't fix it. And they're still printing money, so why change it? I think they're going to ride that till the end. So somebody will come along and end them by doing something better, but you got to find it first. Talking about that is one of the things that the platform could be, one thing that these smaller companies are doing wrong. But thinking about smaller budgets, if they're sending traffic to their site, what do most of these smaller budgets do wrong? What mistakes are they making with their small budgets? Ryan: I think a lot of them, if they do have some advantages and they do have a reason to market, a lot of them make the mistake of not being aggressive enough. I think I've mentioned this probably multiple times, but a lot of small business owners really watch their P and L and all line items going in and out of the business, which is good. But when they come to Google ads, it can quickly become a very large line item and they want to focus on, hey, I need to increase profits, so we need to start cutting this budget and controlling Google, because if I control something in the middle of my P and L, the bottom gets bigger. And unfortunately, something like a Google ads or Facebook ad, is generally driving top line number that does translate into bottom line number, but if you eliminate what's driving that top line, it can really have an opposite effect of what you're intending. And so it's really a paradigm shift. If you're looking at your budget like a line item, you start looking at it as you're investing in getting new customers and then what are you going to do with it? Don't see Google ads or Facebook ads as a cost necessarily, unless you're purposely losing money and you have to control that piece, but that's a whole different story and most small businesses are not doing that, so I won't dive into that necessarily now. But then trying to figure out, okay, once you've got a customer, what are you going to do with them? Because Google and Facebook, they're a marketing channel and you're going to have to give some or all of that initial order margin to the platform to get the customer. And that allows you to compete and capture more market share, but if that margin is going to the platform, it's not going to you, the business owner or marketing teams future budgets. So you've got to do lifetime value, figure out what you're going to be doing to bring them back. So many times small businesses are thinking about, I've got to get customers, I've got to get customers, so I've got a market. Okay, good, you do have to do that, but you can't keep trying to do that without focusing on the customers you do have. What happened to the customers from last month, what are you doing with them? If you're not emailing them, if you don't have a loyalty program, you're essentially wasting all of this effort that you're doing to successfully bring new customers into the brand. And so that's where I see most struggles, because then they'll just be like, "Oh, Google was terrible. It took all my profit and then I had nothing." Jon: Well, we've talked about this several times on the show, of understanding that it's okay on that first sale to break even, and your customer acquisition costs might be high on that first sale, but you have to have a longer term game plan in place. Is it a subscription type product that you're going to use, if you have a consumable, is it something where you're able to continue to market to them afterwards, but you're doing it in a way that is going to continue to drive down the customer acquisition, but up the lifetime value over time? That definitely makes a lot of sense. So, okay, we've heard a lot of disadvantages to being small here today, but there's still a fact that most brands are going to be in that small budget. What are the advantages, what's the positive side, the glass half full here, what's the advantages to being smaller advertisers? Ryan: Yep. There's no secret that having more money can have more advantages in advertising, I mean, that's just basic marketing 101. But what I've seen through a lot of small businesses and having my own that compete against much larger brands, is you inherently have more flexibility. In fact, we were just laughing before we got on and started recording, about politics in larger companies, having all these things that you have to wade through to get things approved, or to do things, where you can't move quickly into new markets, because there's all these layers of approval. Small businesses, hopefully don't have that problem. And it's like, if you see an opportunity, you can just go do it and there's not a lot of people that have to sign off on. It's like, no, I'm going to go capitalize on that change in the market or that area that hasn't been attacked by larger brands. And so that can be a huge advantage, but I still think a lot of small businesses don't think of it that way and look at it, hey, I can afford to make mistakes and learn from them very, very quickly and pivot and adjust. And I can test new products on my site, I can test things on my site as a small business that I don't have to go to a web dev team. I can make quick little changes on my Shopify site to say, "Hey, let's see if this works or not. Let's run it for a week and if it doesn't work, flip it back." So much opportunity to test and so few small businesses actually taking advantage of that. I mean, I can't say the number of times that we've tested small things, even on Joyful Dirt, as we're moving very quickly and say, "Hey, let's test this or test this." That many of them work. I mean, we've got a really smart team that can come up with really cool ideas to test. For example, this month we did a black history month label, so we just, "Hey, let's just do a small run of a few hundred labels and see what happens." And larger brands can't in mid January, decide to do a label run for a specific event and try to get it to work. We're like, "Yeah, let's just see if it works. And so based on the success, we're going to do this multiple times throughout the year for different events and just have custom labels. Jon: That's a great idea. Ryan: Because we can. Jon: I believe this is called the innovator's dilemma. So when you're at a large corporation, you as an individual can come to the table and say, "I want to do custom labels for this month, starting in two weeks." But you have so much red tape to get through that you can actually affect the change that you want to affect. So that's a definite competitive advantage for a small brand, I can completely understand how that would work in their advantage. So that's great. Is there any other advantages that we should be thinking about? Ryan: I think being smaller also forces you to pay attention to details, that larger brands don't have to. We have a lot of large clients that focus on such macro level numbers, 35,000 foot layer of saying, "Hey, what's our data? How much should we spend? What is this?" And there's not the deep dive on, "Okay, how can I squeeze this little bit more out of this product?" It exists on a few large brands, but generally it doesn't matter to them on the small little minutia. And I think smaller brands, really have an opportunity because there is less data to sift through, they can quickly see where markets may be changing or evolving, that larger brands aren't going to catch till later. So you have to be willing to be aggressive and move quick when you see them, but you might see, even on Amazon, this is a massive thing with one of our clients where there's a couple really big players in vital wheat gluten, for example, on Amazon and the volume of sales on baking products on Amazon, is astronomical, I had zero clue until we started working with this company. Jon: Yeah, would not have suggested or thought that. Ryan: No, I'm like, "Vital wheat gluten," that's a very specific product for a very specific niche of people. Jon: Baking in general on Amazon, you would think there's no way. Ryan: It blew me away. But because the volume is so high, everybody selling FBA can only send in, because vital wheat gluten comes in, it's heavy and it comes in five pound bags or two pound bags, so it takes up enough shelf volume that you can't get 50,000 units in there at a time. And because you're usually co-packing, you're getting pallets delivered, and once it's down, you can't all of a sudden like, I'm just going to send 10 units today to take care of the sales. It's massive in and out of stocks all over the place. And so smaller advertisers could leverage that by saying, "All right, if I have my own fulfillment house, I can always keep a seller central product in stock on Amazon. Even if my FBA stock goes out," and you can play a lot of games and figure out what part of the country is or is not working. But that type of flexibility as a small brand, can pay huge dividends just by being aware of some of the struggles of your larger competitors. If your larger competitor has a disgusting amount of aging inventory, they've got problems probably floating the next purchase. Whereas you may not have that problem as a small advertiser, and you can even use drop shipping through one of the partners that could help you. So I think small companies have some significant advantages and I enjoy that part because it is more exciting to grow a smaller brand to take on a larger one. I do it myself, I add to this one. Jon: You'd love to take down the big guy. Ryan: IT do. Jon: Who doesn't? I mean, if you're in business, you're a competitor, just the way it is. Ryan: Oh yeah. And I love competing. And so it's fun as smaller business, but it does take a mentality that you are going to scrap and do everything you can to make it work. And when you come in with that mentality, I think it's very difficult to fail on Google ads or Facebook ads, because you're not accepting that it's not going to work. You see the data, you know people are spending money in your industry and they may not all be making money, but there's consistent effort there. And you just have to get to the point where you can wade through it and make it work because it will. Jon: Well on that note, any parting thoughts on this? I feel like I'm sufficiently equipped if I were a small brand advertising. You're giving me some renewed hope, that's for sure, that my $1,000 per day or per month, excuse me, would actually go someplace. Ryan: Yeah. The only thing I will say is that I do believe quality help will go a long way. You can be a small advertiser as a business owner and spend $1,000 if you learn and you're quick enough at adjusting and pivoting and looking at data, you're going to learn how to do it, but it might take you six, seven, eight months to get the point where you could have started at that point with an expert. And so it's at least worth interviewing a couple of agencies to see what it is they could do to help you if you bring experts on to manage that $1,000 spend. Yes, you're going to have to pay an agency extra cost, but can they get you moving towards your target at a quicker rate? I think often they can, but even if you're going to do it yourself, at least talk to somebody else that really knows what they're doing to see what the advantages could be. Jon: Well, and it could be huge too, if you get a higher return on that ad spend, that margin difference, they pay for themselves. It's like working with a great CPA, they're going to get you a bigger refund than if you did it yourself. So that covers their fees and hopefully more. Ryan: For sure. Jon: All right Ryan, well, thank you for your expertise on this. I know you guys work with thousands. Every time I talk to you, it's another thousand. So I'll just say thousands and thousands of clients at Logical Position, and a lot of those are smaller ones and you guys have learned a lot from that. So thank you for sharing all of the expertise you've learned. Ryan: Oh yeah. Thank you, Jon. I appreciate the time. Announcer: Thanks for listening to Drive and Convert, with Jon McDonald and Ryan Garrow. To keep up to date with new episodes, you can subscribe at driveandconvert.com.

We're on a mission to help one million people RISE by 2030 - join the movement at www.myrise.co.uk Last year Liverpool Football Club won their first ‘top flight' in three decades. Do you know how they did it? Yes, I know they scored more points then anyone else. But how did they get those points? Man City scored more goals than them (and had more shots and shots on target). It wasn't even in the goalkeeper's performance. City's keepers saved 0.5% more of the shots on target taken at them than Liverpool's did. It wasn't even in the number of shots taken against them. City had a mammoth 18% less total shots taken against them. Chelsea also beat Liverpool in this (and in their own total shots taken). It was the step before that. The difference between shots taken and shots on target. There was a mammoth 25% difference between the teams there. ———- Note: I'm well aware that I've done what most football ‘pundits' do and had a I point I wanted to make and found the ‘stats' to “prove it” ———- It wasn't the ‘what they did'. It was ‘what they stopped happening'. And, more importantly, not leaving it to that “last line of defence”. A lesson we could all benefit from. The ‘what we do' is still great………… The exercise, etc. But if we're allowing all that good work to be ‘undone' at ‘the other end' with our eating………… If we're leaving that to the ‘last line of defence'……… To our willpower to make us do something we don't really want to do at that point………… We'll probably do what Liverpool did for 30 years. Watch as others achieve what we want to. If we create the equivalent to ‘solid defence'……….. An environment that doesn't test our willpower……….. The equivalent to a sports psychologist that helps us question the way we see the ‘game'……….. Then enough of those relatively little differences will add up over a ‘season'. Much love, Jon ‘You'll Never Walk Alone' Hall

There are seven different types of people that you're going to find coming to your site. And if you can understand who these people are in each one of their buckets, you're going to be able to help each one of them convert because they're all going to look at your site a little bit differently. So how do we understand who they are? And what do we need want to know how do we convert these people? Jon's got the answers! TRANSCRIPT: Announcer: You're listening to Drive and Convert, a podcast about helping online brands to build a better e-commerce growth engine, with Jon MacDonald and Ryan Garrow. Ryan: Well, Jon, welcome to the Drive and Convert podcast. You've done a lot of writing, to say the least. You've got some phenomenal content out there on the internet and as somebody that reads most of your content and speaks to you often, it's always good to read. So if you're listening to this, go find Jon and all of his content on his website. I highly recommend it. You will come away as a smarter human. But one of the fascinating concepts that at least for me seems fairly unique to your brain and at least the content you're putting out is the idea of there are seven different types of people that you're going to find coming to your site. And if you can understand who these people are in each one of their buckets, you're going to be able to help each one of them convert because they're all going to look at your site a little bit differently or want to do slightly different things. But I guess step one is just, how do we understand who they are? And then we want to know how do we convert these people? We've got them to the site. We know who they are, now how do we convert them? So I'm excited to hear about this because I can never get enough insight into how to make my businesses and my clients' businesses work better. But can you kick us off just by telling us who are the seven personas that you're seeing on the internet coming to websites? Jon: Well, thank you, first of all, for the kind of compliments on the content. I'm blushing over here if you can't see that. Yes, there are seven and a lot of people think, seven that's a lot. But the reality here is there might be some overlap in these as well, right? And these are all different types of people that you really need to address on your site. And so many people don't do that, that it really led me to write this content. So the first set of folks coming to your site are what I call lookers, right? These are people who are just looking. They're browsers, if you will, right? They're not after any one thing in particular, they're having fun just looking around. They want to see what you offer that maybe will catch your attention. Honestly, they may even have been just searching around Google for different types of products and ended up at your site, not necessarily by mistake, but they ended up there and now they're just looking at what you have to offer. Really you just need to understand that not everybody who approaches your site's going to buy. Most e-comm sites know that, right? Because their conversion rate's not a hundred percent or else we wouldn't exist. But the reality here is that you still need to address this audience. A second one to be thinking about is bargain hunters. These are people who are only at your site because you're having a sale or some type of offer. Ryan: Hopefully, it's not a discount. Jon: Exactly. That would be my point of view. But that's what they're looking for there. They're trained, as we have said, several times, they're trained to look for that sale. And so there are people, and there is a segment of folks who will only buy if something's at a perceived bargain, right? And they really want to see if they can find the bargain. Sometimes it's the thrill of finding the bargain that really gets to them. The third you really want to think about it as the buyers. Now, it seems pretty obvious, but some people are really on a mission. They know exactly what they want and they're there to get it. So they searched for the model number, they found your site, and they are ready to buy. And so you really want to facilitate that. A fourth is researchers. Some folks are just researching. They have a general idea of what they're after, but they want to compare those options and the prices. So, a lot of people will go to Amazon for this, but now, a lot of people are doing that on brand sites as well. They go to Amazon and they find the product they want but then they end up on your brand site after they've done that research. They find the model number on Amazon, they Google it to find more details about the brand behind the product. Amazon isn't always the best at having product details, right? So a lot of times you'll end up on a brand site trying to do that and that's what these folks are. Ryan: Now, what would be the big differentiator on the researchers and the lookers? Because a lot of similarities between the two, but what would be the key differentiators in your mind? Jon: The key differentiator is the researcher knows what they want. They know what they're looking for. The lookers are ... It's kind of like wandering around a mall versus going right into the Apple store. You're at the mall but you beeline it for one shop because you know that you need something from that shop. Where you might just go to the mall to hang out, right? If that's even a thing, post-COVID one day, we'll see. Ryan: Someday we'll get back to a mall, maybe. Jon: New customers is another one. People don't really think about that often. And this is really where some visitors are just going to be new customers. They enjoyed their last visit. Maybe they were a looker on their last visit and now they're there to find out more and potentially become a new customer. Perhaps these are people who you should really be thinking about post-purchase, like they just purchased. What happens at that point, right? So these could be people who are buying from you the first time. And it's an audience you really need to be thinking about because you need to make them feel welcomed and appreciated. One that a lot of people don't think about is dissatisfied customers. Everybody has them. I don't care if your net promoter scores is perfect or you don't hear about these complaints. Everybody has a dissatisfied customer or more. And that's okay. These people are there for a number of reasons and it might not always be that bad. Maybe they're just dissatisfied because it didn't fit the way they thought it would, but they still like the product, they're there to return or exchange. For some reason, a previous purchase didn't suit them and now they want customer service. And the goal here is to make it easy for them to get that and perhaps even do self-service where possible. And the last one, seven of seven, we blew right through these, but we'll dive into each in a second, but this is loyal customers. So some of these are your best customers. They come back, they love shopping with you. They love your product and then they're going to be repeat customers. So, that's the seven. To run them real quick, it's lookers, bargain hunters, buyers, researchers, new customers, dissatisfied customers, and loyal customers. Ryan: Got it. So we know what personas people are in, generally. And then are there ways outside of the types of traffic that you help decide who this one is on the site to do that, or is it, I just want to make sure the site works for all of them? Jon: You really want to make sure the site works for all of them. And I think that there's many ways to group people into these different types. As I said earlier, they could be multiple types. But I heard you say the word persona, and I think I really want to make clear that it's easy to get dragged into things like personas, or where people are in the sales funnel, or warm, hot, and cold leads and visitors, or any of those things that can really just take you down the rabbit hole if you will, right? And I see this all the time where we ask people, who's your ideal customer, and they give us an avatar of somebody that has flowcharts, and photos of Charlie, the avid runner, and his demographics, and preferences, and what soda he drinks, or what bottled water he prefers, and all of that stuff doesn't really matter. It's never really put to good use, especially when it comes to optimizing a website, because that guy, Charlie, the runner, he was generated in the mind of the brand. He's not an actual consumer, right? So what you really want to do here is just keep it simple. Really you just want to focus on better serving each of these. And by doing that, you're likely to increase your conversions for each of these. Additionally, if you go any deeper than that, you're unlikely to get started because you'll end up in this, as I said earlier, rabbit hole of trying to figure out who Charlie is. Well, Charlie, isn't going to be all seven of these, right? So don't worry about Charlie and don't worry about going so deep. Ryan: Because you might have your ... If you've done the persona thing as a brand, you could have your same persona being all of these types. And so at the same time, keep this very top level when you're looking at your site and trying to guide traffic and just do what Jon says at the end of the day. Jon: If the world only worked that way. I'll have you call my wife after this and tell her that too. Ryan: Yeah, you do the same for me when we're talking about driving traffic. Okay. But we've got to tell people how do we take these groups of traffic and these people and get them to take the action we want them to take on the site. Because I'm guessing to a degree, not all of them are the same conversion either. Jon: Very accurate. That's true. Ryan: So we've got to think about that as well. Like a disgruntled customer is probably different than a looker at the end of the day, as far as action. So guide our listeners and viewers around what that looks like and how you're seeing converting those people. Jon: Well, let's break them down one by one, shall we? So start with lookers, really is what I would recommend here. And I think the thing to be thinking about here is with lookers is you're going to catch your attention and get them to stop that just shopping and not browsing long enough to consider some type of offer or something that gets their attention, right? So if you know your customers well enough, which most brands listening to this will, they'll know what will entice their customers. And I'm not just talking about an offer or a special or deal or anything of that sense, I'm also saying what's that one feature that makes you unique and makes you stand out? What's the benefit of the product that's really going to hit home for these people? They're at your site because they had a pain or a problem they're trying to solve. And they think your products can help them solve that problem. So you really want to make sure that you're putting that right upfront to get these people's attention early. But know also, it could take a few sales to get these people in there, right? So don't be discouraged when you see the bounce rate up there because people are just looking and leaving. That's what they do. That's why I call them lookers. Ryan: I hate when people talk to me about bounce rate. Take your bounce rate to the bank. Have them tell you what that's worth. Jon: Yeah, it doesn't help, right? Ryan: No. Jon: And it's a metric so many people chase, I think, thinking, oh, I can get my bounce rate down. Okay, this one goes in with time on-site with me as well. So many people track time on-site and I think it's a false metric because if you think about it, I'm there to get my tasks done. I'm there because I want to buy this product, or even if I'm just looking around, I generally have an idea of what I'm doing at your site. I might just still be browsing, but I have an idea of why I'm there. The problem with this is if I'm there for 10 minutes, you've made my life really complicated. I'm there because I need something, I'm looking around, and then the problem is I can't find that or I got sucked into something and I'm there for 10 minutes. As opposed to, I would much rather have customers who are at my site for three minutes and buy, right? And then I have their information. I can continue to market to them at another opportunity. But if somebody is spending 10, 20 minutes on your site, we probably have some type of usability problem. Ryan: Well, and also I laughed when you started talking about catching their attention because I know you're going to tell people it is not a pop-up telling them to join your email list for 10% off your first order, especially if you're a looker. Jon: Yep. I agree with that. Ryan: That is not going to be a quality email. Jon: Not at all. But you do want to encourage them to get on your mailing list but not through a discount, not through a pop-up, really encourage them in other ways so that you can then follow up with them later. Maybe that's something like an upcoming new release that they might be interested in, right? You should be thinking about it in that way. Once you've kind of got their attention, then how are you going to continue to keep that attention and continue to market to them? This is where I hear you say all the time, you're happy to pay for ads and break-even knowing you're building your customer roster. And I think that this is a good opportunity to be thinking about that without actually converting for a sale, right? This is what we would call a micro-conversion, where they're doing something that's not actually an exchange of money. Ryan: Now I would venture a guess and you can probably correct me if I'm wrong, but lookers probably make up the largest portion of traffic to most e-comm sites. Jon: Yes. There's a reason that I put them first on the list. It's because it's going to be the vast majority. Ryan: So it's a vast majority. You've worked with some pretty large brands with the ability to test measure lots of different things. Top of mind, obviously on the fly because we didn't talk about this beforehand, but what's a good implementation of this catch your attention that you've seen implemented that caused the brand to continue to be able to grow and push these lookers further down the funnel? Jon: Yeah. So this is where things like we were just looking at a company that sells a bunch of different pants. The price point was like $128 for a pair of pants. And I was like, man, that's, that's kind of expensive. I'm just looking at these pants. I don't really need a pair of pants right now. But the reality is what caught my attention was that they are five times stronger than jeans and I can do a lot of different activities in them. And that caught my attention because now I'm thinking, "Wow, they're going to last a lot longer than jeans and I probably spent $100 on a pair of jeans." So what's 28 more dollars to have them last five times as long as jeans, right? So just something like that, the benefit is really going to hit that. And I'm the target audience for that site I was looking at. So, these lookers, they're likely, the vast majority of them should be your target audience. If you're working with Ryan in Logical Position, then you're driving qualified traffic. And so assuming you're driving qualified traffic and these lookers end up there, they're going to be within your demographic of who is your ideal customer, so then really it's all about connecting with them on the benefit. Ryan: Got it. Okay. I think that's a great thing. It's easy to execute for most brands, I think. Jon: Yeah, for sure. So we can also talk about for each of these how I would recommend converting these. And I think for the lookers, I would want to really just make sure the e-commerce site is easy to navigate and search because really that's what they're here to do, is just walk around the store, right? So make it easy. Don't put barriers in their way, help them get where they want to go, and give them a really excellent reason to give them that email address that we talked about or other contact information, and so you can build a relationship with a nurturing campaign. That site I was just talking about, they had a bi-weekly $150 gift card that they would give to somebody who signed up. So you're entered to win a $150 gift card every other week, which is great because of $128 pair of jeans, I might get those for free. So if I'm seriously interested and I want to continue to stay in touch with this brand, I might've given them my email address there, right? And then another way really here is cart abandonment because a lot of lookers will add stuff to cart as a way of holding it to compare and look at when they're done browsing your store. It's kind of like if you go shopping and you might pick up a couple of different pairs of clothing or something off the rack when you're walking around the store because, "Oh, I like this. I might like it. Let me see what else they have too." And then you end up with three or four things, right? It's the same thing browsers are doing on your website. They're throwing it in their cart and then they want to just take a look at that and evaluate after. So having some type of cart abandonment there can be a great way to captivate their interest. Ryan: Awesome. Jon: So next would be bargain hunters. With bargain hunters, it's really not about discounting, right? That's not conversion optimization. I think you know my stance on discounting. People who listened to this show will know I'm fervent about not discounting, right? But instead, really look to offers like free shipping, or gift with purchase, BOGO. We did a whole episode on this. People really want to know the alternatives, they exist. And really here, you just want to be thinking about things like current offers on your website. Don't make your customer's desert at the checkout and then go elsewhere to find that bargain or that special code. If they have to go to any of those sites, they're not coming back. And so we really don't want to drive them there. And you might also highlight, last chance or clearance items instead of making shoppers really go find those on your site. It could be really good on every category to have a little tout or badge or flag on each product that says something about how it's last chance, or low inventory, or something that's on clearance. Ryan: Now, do you advocate for having a clearance or an outlet navigation button on brand sites for this type of thing? Jon: Generally not. Where I want to see that as within the category because, yes, having a clearance item ... A lot of brands will put that in the main navigation. The problem is you're wasting a really critical main navigation slot. You only want five to six navigation items to begin with. And if you're taking clearance as one of those or something of that sort, a sale, I see a lot of people have sale in main navigation, what's going to happen is people are going to go there first and they're not going to get a total view of your products. Usually, the products that are in that clearance are in clearance for a reason. They weren't really popular. So why do you want the first impression of what your product should be, for a person coming into your site to see, is only the products that other people normally wouldn't buy and they're on clearance, right? So instead, mix clearance in with your other products. That way you're not promoting only your worst sellers if you will. Ryan: A couple interesting points that deviate a little bit from what we're talking about, but it's applicable in that I can afford most things on the sites I go to, but I am cheap by default so I always go to the clearance button first. Because I'm like if I can find what I'm looking for on clearance first, I'm going to get it. Even though if I didn't see clearance, I would have gone to the product and probably bought a higher price one by default because that's just how I operate on a site. But also, when you are throwing discounted products on your site, and there's a clearance section that they are in, if your Google shopping is not set up properly, all of those products would have been going into the clearance section and you can be stuck in the clearance section of the site and you're going to be staying in there most of the time. And because products are discounted price, generally get to show more often in Google shopping because they're lower price point or there's a discounted price, you will, unfortunately, be sending a lot of discounted traffic to your site when that maybe is not the focus of your brand. So some brands I advocate for having an outlet site that's completely separate. Jon: That's a great point. Ryan: Kind of like Gap Outlet, their stores, they sell all their old stuff and they'll have a separate site, and then having the people going to gap.com on that. Jon: That's a great point. And that probably makes Kanye very happy as well. Next up is buyers. Buyers should be buying from you in a way that's hassle-free, right? These people want to buy. They're there to buy. They have a job. That's one job that they're there to do and that's to buy, so let them buy. Clear these obstacles, make it easy and simple to buy, really be thinking here about the bottlenecks in the path to purchase that people must take, right? What are the hurdles you're asking them to jump over? Let's get rid of those. A really great way to look at this is to do user testing, get people who fit your ideal customer profiles, and have them run through your site while you record it and talk about the challenges they're having. Again, the whole goal here is to get outside the jar, read the label from outside the jar. And it's really hard to do that when you're too close to it. So really be focusing on just eliminating every single possible barrier, too many fields on checkout, making people create an account before they buy, all of those things that would be extra steps or what we're looking to eliminate with these. Ryan: And be clear on your shipping rates. That's the one that makes me so mad lately, is people not telling me what I'm going to pay for shipping, so it'll increase your cart abandonment too. Jon: Yeah, Exactly. I mean, these people are ready to buy until they saw you were going to charge them 20 bucks to ship, right? And so, there you go. Perfect case study. Announcer: You're listening to Drive and Convert, a podcast focused on e-commerce growth. Your hosts are Jon MacDonald, founder of The Good, a conversion rate optimization agency that works with e-commerce brands to help convert more of their visitors into buyers, and Ryan Garrow of Logical Position, a digital marketing agency offering pay-per-click management, search engine optimization, and website design services to brands of all sizes. If you find this podcast helpful, please help us out by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts and sharing it with a friend or colleague. Thank you. Jon: All right. Should we move on to researchers? Ryan: Yes. Jon: Really, researchers, my point of view on these is these folks need to just make sure that they feel like they've considered their options and they're making the right decision. And your job, your only job is to help them do that. So what does this look like? Well, provide all the info you can think of, dimensions, instructions, details, data, data, data. That's what these people want, right? They're comparing. They came to your site because as I mentioned earlier, they were on Amazon, the Amazon didn't have the details, so they're relying on your site to have them. And you want to help them just make an informed decision. This could be everything from product reviews from other consumers to video. Researchers love video because they can see the products in motion and in use. Somebody even just holding the product and walking them through it. Specialized Bicycles does an amazing job of this. They actually have employees of Specialized, not models or anything else. It's employees hold the bike and then walk a consumer through it on video. And it's really, really well done. It does not have to be ... They shoot it in a studio, but it doesn't feel like it's a super well-polished and professional video on purpose, right? It's not some high production quality. You're aiming for your local news versus the national morning show, right, in level of quality here. Ryan: Got it. Jon: So the other thing is, really help these people understand things like sizing and photography. Video, I mentioned. So those are the things you just really want to help people dive into are all these different decision points. All right, new customers. These folks, they really want to feel like they've made a wise decision or that you want them to feel like they can make a wise decision, understand your warranties, helping people stand behind their products. You want to make sure that you're glad that they are your customer and make them know that. So this is where you think about retail source. Like your wife's retail store, right? She's there to answer questions. She can help out with returns. She'll generally just express gratitude when these people are shopping, right? It's hard to do that online, but this is where it becomes really, really important that you're doing things like building relationships with nurturing campaigns. And that can start with, as I mentioned earlier, a post-purchase campaign. What happens after this new customer becomes a new customer, right? They're no longer a visitor, they're now a customer. What do you need to do there? Loyalty campaigns, a huge way to engage these folks, right? You get them in and say, "Thank you so much for your first purchase. Here is points for your next purchase," or, "Two more purchases and your fourth one is free." Something of that sort, right? Where you're helping these loyal people become loyal customers. That's really what this is all about. Ryan: And these people just purchased, so maybe they haven't even gotten the product yet or maybe they just got it. Jon: Exactly. Ryan: Even just user videos on how to use the product you're getting can be valuable. I do that with Joyful Dirt. Jon: That's a great point, right? So what can you send as that follow-up email flow while the people are waiting for their package to make sure they know that you have their back, right? So if I bought Joyful Dirt, what do I need to prep for? Is there a season I should be doing this in? How much water do I need to apply? All these other types of things that I probably don't really think about, but are really key to somebody getting the most out of the product and buying again, right? If I follow your instructions for Joyful Dirt, I am more likely to have a good experience and then buy again, then if I just use the product without reading the instructions, which is more likely for me than not so. Ryan: What I appreciate on it too, on that first email after I purchase, usually the next day, it builds the anticipation because often I forget what I bought yesterday and I get surprised by Amazon in two days, who are the site I purchased it on. And so you're like, "Oh, yeah, I do have that coming in a day." I'm excited to get it now because I was excited yesterday when I bought it, and I forgot today, and then tomorrow when it arrives, I get excited. So it's a good way to continue that kind of that high from my purchase that I just paid. Jon: How is there not a phrase like the Amazon phenomenon or something, where everybody forgets what they ordered at Amazon at midnight the night before and then it shows up two days later and you're like, "Oh, yeah, I was looking for that. That was great. I'm a genius." Ryan: I know. I was like, well, I knew I wanted one of these and like, oh, I did want one and then I bought it. It was great. In college, it would have been, "Man, what did I do at 2:00 AM?" and talk about, "Oh, I had a bean burrito." Now, it's just transaction fatigue or something. And I'm just [crosstalk 00:25:48]. Jon: That was much lower key than I thought you were going there, Ryan. 2:00 AM in college. But this happened to me recently where I was working out with a trainer and we do an outdoor workout in my garage now. And it was really funny because he didn't bring his TRX bands. If you know about these TRX straps, they're a way to do workouts. And the reality is that I went on and I just ordered a pair from Amazon. I was like, "Well if you ever forget them again, I'll have some here." And totally forgot about it. And then the next workout came by and the Amazon guy literally showed up two days later while we were working out. So it had been like two days to the hour and the guy shows up and I'm like, "Oh, I wonder what that is." And you could read the outside of the box. It said TRX. And my trainer is like, "Did you get something from TRX?" I was like, "Oh, yeah. Last time you were here. Yeah, remember?" Yeah, so that's was pretty funny. I was like, Amazon wins again. Ryan: Yep. Jon: All right. Dissatisfied customers. We have two left. So let's talk about the dissatisfied customers. Everybody has them, right? And they exist. And that's okay. These folks often can just be made satisfied by helping them understand that you're trying to fix their challenge and improve the experience for everyone else. Often, it's like if I come across a problem on our website, okay, let's just say, I just bought a bed. I'm not going to name names, but I bought a bed online and it has a whole bunch of technology in it. Love it. But, I'm a tall gentleman, right? And I bought a king, and it comes, and I was like, "This is a lot smaller than a king." It turns out, I measured it, it's two inches less than a king. And I was like, that's really weird. It's not a queen. So what's going on here? And so I contacted the brand and said, "Hey, this bed is two inches smaller than a king." And they said, "Oh, yeah. Because of some of the technology, blah, blah, blah, we have to make it a little bit smaller." And I was like, "That would have been nice to have known up on your site. You need to tell people that it says king, but it's actually two inches smaller. Because you're advertising all these NBA players use this bed and things like that, and I'm thinking great, right? But then it's two inches smaller." And the founder actually emailed me and said, "Hey, I got this feedback. I heard this. Well, we're going to add this to the website and make sure people know." And I was like, okay, well, I still have the bed, now I'm satisfied. And I was like, at least other people won't have that problem, right>. So I felt vindicated in some way. And so I think I made this point to say that complaining customers are an excellent source of feedback. And that's how you need to look at these, right? It's not about just having dissatisfied customers, it's about understanding what their problems are and fixing them. They tell you what the problems with your website and your consumer experience are, and so you could fix those problems. So really just want to be quick to listen to things like bad reviews, understand the complaint before responding, and understand that you can turn dissatisfied customers into loyal ones. It is possible. Ryan: I think too often brands hear or get bad feedback or just dissatisfied customers, and it's just for them, it's almost scary confronting it, or they're really excited and passionate about their brand, and somebody doesn't like it, they're like, "They just don't know what they're doing." I've done this myself with brands, and I'm like, "They just don't know what they're doing." And then I'm like, okay, it happened again. I'm like, okay, fine, we need to adjust the product. And my baby may be ugly, so let's fix it and not make it so ugly to some of these people. You can't be scared of dissatisfied customers, or you're going to lose your brand. At the end of the day, it's going to be just terrible. Jon: That's a good point. Yeah. All right. Last one, loyal customers. So, look, the 80/20 rule says that 20% of your customers will be responsible for 80% of your business. So the way I like to look at this and it's hilarious, I was just saying this to somebody else, but loyal customers are your bread and the rest are your butter, right? So really want to be thinking about what are you doing for these loyal people? So look at loyalty programs. I like to use airlines as examples because they are so good at gamifying, right? I'm platinum on Delta. I mean, I haven't flown them in nine months and I just got another letter from them yesterday with baggage tags for platinum level. And they said, "Hey, we're going to keep you a platinum level for another year. Don't worry about it. All the miles you've accumulated will count towards next year. So you don't have to start over. We understand." And they're gamifying it and in a way that's, okay, now, next year, when I start flying again or whenever that is, I'm going to go right back to Delta because I'm still platinum there. If they had removed, I'd just figure out, I'd be like, hey, well maybe Alaska or whoever else flies more on the West Coast where I'm all the time going, I would probably switch. But now I'll stick with Delta, right? They've done a great job with that through what's no doubt a challenging time for them. So really want to be thinking about a way to keep customers coming back and how you can take care of your most loyal customers. As I say, gamifying works very, very well. Every customer is special, but you really want to treat these folks with even more kid gloves, if you will. And then find ways to reward and recognize these people, you can give them special amenities. Baggage tags aren't really going to be much for me. I don't really care about that, but I'll take the free upgrades and the free alcohol and everything else that comes with being platinum with Delta. And then really just treat them like a VIP and they'll continue to be loyal. That's really my key point here. Ryan: And this is really probably the one area that I advocate for companies looking at competitors and taking note because a lot of times when you look at competitors and they have this widget on their side, or they do this thing in their ads, they probably have no idea what they're doing. At the end of the day, they're testing something. But when it comes to loyalty and what they're doing with their customers to try to keep them loyal, often, this is where a lot of research goes and especially in the airlines. If I was running an airline, I would go to all of the other airlines' loyalty program, find a list somehow and say, "Look, if you are platinum with Delta, I will automatically make you platinum or whatever my highest thing is with Alaska, give me a shot." And just automatically, because you're losing nothing. I'm not getting Jon's business right now. Jon: Right. It's funny you say that because Alaska does just that. They'll do a status match, where if you're platinum on Delta, they will status match you and give you that for a year on Alaska. Sadly, you can only do it once in your lifetime. And I did it right before the pandemic, so that's not a good situation for me. But yeah, at any rate [crosstalk] travel. Ryan: Join your competitor's loyalty program. I highly recommend everybody do that because it's going to give you some ideas of what they're seeing in the data or how they're gamifying it. Just jog your brainstorming ideas. Jon: Yeah. Status matches is a great idea, right? That's wonderful. Yeah. Where do you think you want to go from here? Ryan: Well, we're about out of time. So, I guess, I've got a lot to chew on too because I'm sure we're going to come out with some other ideas on this after digesting most of your data. But there's a lot of things you can do on a site to target a lot of people. And so what would your suggestion be to somebody that's just taken this fire hose to the face for their site and they're like, oh, my gosh, seven different groups of people? Where do you start and how do you start taking some actions so you're not a paralysis-analysis scenario? Jon: Yeah, great point. I would say here, start by asking questions about each of these groups and taking a good look at your site from their perspectives, right? So do each of these customer types get their needs met or are you just leaving some out in the cold? And how do you identify and engage the most loyal customers, or how do you flag and recognize new customers? And are you providing enough information to researchers? So really there's a key question in each of these if you go down and just ask yourself, am I meeting the needs of these people? And you'll come up with tons and tons of optimizations that you can do to your site on your own pretty easily. Ryan: Got it. And I would probably just broad stroke saying if you move up through the list in reverse order, you're taking care of some of the easiest or most important things. Like keeping your loyal customers loyal to you, you can't lose lifetime value customers, otherwise, your top-funnel marketing is just wasted. So keep those and move up. If you have to make a choice on where you're taking actions, I'm guessing that's where I would start. Jon: There you go. Awesome. Well, thank you, Ryan. I really enjoyed the conversation today. Ryan: Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for bringing your brain and letting me pick it and add some value to our listeners. I appreciate that. Jon: All right. Well, have a great afternoon. Ryan: You too. Thanks, Jon. Announcer: Thanks for listening to Drive and Convert with Jon MacDonald and Ryan Garrow. To keep up to date with new episodes, you can subscribe at driveandconvert.com.

Hello everyone and welcome to The Mouse Club!

Jon Jordan is the style editor for WDIV, Local4 in Detroit and the style editor for Style Wise Jon. Check out his fashion and style tips here -https://www.youtube.com/c/StyleWisewithJonJordan/about TRANSCRIPT: JON: People have a vision or a notion that being well dressed means you have to spend a lot of money and you have a lot of time figuring things out and there's nothing worse...well, I suppose there are worse things but starting your morning in a closet that's disorganized and your confused about what to wear and you don't like your choices and you can't see anything, that's not a good way to start your day out. ZAK: But have no fear, fashion guru, Jon Jordan says there's a cure for this. The uniform. JON: You can wear basically the same thing every single day and the uniform is a look that streamlines your wardrobe efforts because it is basically a variation of the same thing and the references that I have for this are some really high-end people in the fashion world like the designer Tom Ford. He basically wears a black blazer and a crisp white shirt and a great pair of jeans and loafers everyday and he doesn't vary from that. ZAK: For people who are fashion challenged or people who just don't feel confident in putting together an outfit. How do they decide what their uniform can and should be. JON: I think you rely an expert and that might be somebody in a store or a trusted friend because there are basic rules that will help them out like, things should fit well, things should flatter, things should actually feel comfortable. I'm Jon Jordan. I am the style editor for WDIV, Local4 in Detroit and also the style editor for Style Wise Jon on Youtube for Graham Media. ZAK: My uniform lately has been hiking socks, sweatpants and a t-shirt with baby spit-up on it. I call the look COVID Casual. But seriously I love this idea of streamlining and embracing minimalism. Thank you, Jon Jordan. I've linked to some of his Youtube videos in our show notes. I want to hear your advice. Give me a call at 844-935-BEST. This is The Best Advice Show, talk to you tomorrow. Bye.

Google recently dropped all commission fees on their "Buy on Google" platform. On the surface-level this seems like a very intriguing offer. But Ryan here is to explain why "Buy on Google" may not be the best thing for your brand. TRANSCRIPT: Jon: Ryan, a few days ago, I sent you an article I read about Google's Buy on Google program and how they were dropping all commission fees for their sellers as part of the program. Now, to me, this seemed like a pretty good deal. Who doesn't like freeways to sell products and utilize a huge platform with lots of awareness like Google search? At least that was my take, but when I asked you about it, you said, and I'll quote, hopefully this is okay, "That product was dead in the water before this change. Some merchants will of course test it, but it will compete for ad presence with their regular Google ads." Honestly, this was not what I was expecting to hear from you at all. I was really interested in connecting with you a bit more about this and just seeing your thoughts on it and getting some more information about the program out and seeing where and when it makes sense for all of our eCommerce listeners to take advantage of it. I guess just to jump right in, Ryan, on a high level, just so we're on the same page, what exactly is Buy on Google? Ryan: Buy on Google is the little colorful shopping cart icon that shows up in Google shopping. When you start filtering and sorting, you actually transact on Google and then the merchant fulfills it. It's basically a Google trying to be this marketplace saying, "Oh, we can trust Google because I'm buying it here." It's a shopping ad set that you're able to get when you push your inventory into Google and say, "Yes, I'm willing to sell this on Google." Previously, there were commissioned tiers to sell different products. It ranged somewhere from five to, I think, 12%. It was a 12% number that Google [inaudible 00:02:07] because it was less than that Amazon 15%. That came out, man, I want to say maybe three, four years ago, maybe in an alpha-beta four years ago. I think it did cause some Amazon changes within their system on what they were going to be charging to try to have more parody with the Buy on Google scenario. Yeah. It was basically give Google the commission that you would maybe be paying Amazon and we'll push your product out there. There's no advertising costs. Google's the one putting it out there and then you just get the sale and give commission to Google. Jon: They're trying to create a marketplace without really holding any inventory or doing any fulfillment. They literally just take the money, take their cut and send everything over to the retailer? Ryan: Yeah. From a high level, it sounds like a great idea like, "Okay. I have all of this work. I'm spending all this money in Google ads and shopping and I've got agency fees or employee costs or my time in it. Now, I can just go to Google and you're just going to take a commission and it's a fixed cost, so I don't have to worry about what my return on Google shopping is." That theory sounds phenomenal. There's not many business owners are going to be like, "Yeah. Here, take my products. Sell them for me. I now know that I'm only going to be paying 12% of my revenue for my advertising cost." There's no scenario in which that doesn't sound like a good idea. Jon: That definitely makes sense. How does Buy on Google differ from Google Shopping? This is a complete novice asking that question. Ryan: It's part of Google Shopping. You only see the Buy on Google when you're in the Google Shopping tab within Google space. It used to be a little more prevalent on the first page of Google, but I believe it's only showing now in the Google Shopping tab. It's one of the filters you can put on there. Jon: Okay. Then, really Google Shopping is getting your listing of products up there. Some of them will take you to the retailer. Some of them will just take your money on Google. Ryan: Yes. It's always interesting. Google's, as we know, a for profit company. They want to make money. When they came out with this program, it obviously sounded great to business owners, but it immediately put up some flags on our team internally to say, "Okay. Google needs to reward shareholders for their investment and needs to make money to afford employees," and all the things they do around the world that are very good and positive, including paying people. If Google is going to take 12% of the revenue for a sale and not charge for any clicks to the merchant that's selling that, in theory, Google's not going to be willing to lose money by showing those products at 12% when they know from a click cost, they're getting a 20% or a five X return for the merchant. Jon: I see. Yeah. Ryan: Google's got a lot of very smart people and they do say that they are out for the good, and they will do things to just benefit people. Period. There is an opportunity maybe that they're willing to take less money, but that's not always the case. You just have to start investigating. That's why I challenge every merchant to do with any product in Google is test and measure and see if it does actually make sense for your brand. Jon: Spoken after my own heart there, test and measure. Ryan: Yes. Jon: I've had an impact, Ryan. I appreciate it. Let me ask you this then. If they're not doing any commission anymore, then how are they going to make any money and how could any brand really think that Google is going to list this above their ads? Ryan: It's a great question. That's why it's surprising that Google made this move, especially when they just released earnings when we're doing this podcast yesterday where they had the first time that their revenue dropped in a quarter. I don't know how long, if ever, that Google being willing to give up money. When that happens, it's telling us internally logical position that, "Okay. Something wasn't going the direction that Google thought it was going to be going." Either we're in the process potentially of just sunsetting this or moving it to a place where it's not going to be necessarily a focus of Google because if there's no revenue coming in, how are you going to support it internally? You can't dedicate a bunch of employees necessarily longterm to a product that makes no money. It's either a stepping stone into something different, or they're taking steps to buy some market share to a degree and try to get people using it in broad adoption so that they can monetize it later. We don't necessarily know where they're going because they won't necessarily tell us this despite our levels of... I actually asked the question. I was interviewing, I think the global partner strategy person for Shopping. He's a big guy in the Shopping space. We were talking about the free and fast program that's recently come out and I brought it up and he's like, "I answered something, but not how you want it. Then, we can't have this in the interview because I'm not authorized to speak on it." Awesome. Thanks. It's a big unknown. I know that if Google is not making money on it generally, it's not going to be something that I, as a brand, am going to get really excited about and try to push all of my eggs into that basket for my personal brand. I might test it. Again, test and measure, see what it does, but my hopes are not high. Also, my hopes are not high, but just because of the nature of the Buy on Google and the data we've seen in it. A logical position... One of the companies I talk about often, I won't mention them by name, but they started working with us in May of 2020 after they had not been doing any paid search with an agency. They had been using Buy on Google with another agency that recommended that this was the greatest thing for them. This sells B2B kind of like distributor cleaning products, just all things businesses need. They have something in the neighborhood of hundreds of thousands of skews. Most of their sales come from Walmart or Amazon, at least, they did at the time. We looked at Buy on Google and they did about $34,000 a month on average. That was over the previous six months, and they paid Google and this agency somewhere around between four and $5,000 for that batch of sales, $34,000 worth. Jon: It seems like a good [inaudible 00:08:20], if you will? Ryan: Yeah. It wasn't terrible by any means. I said, "Okay. Well, that's not bad, but based on what we see, I believe you're limiting yourself on the potential that our website only did, I believe $16,000 in revenue in the month of April." Their web sales, just if it evaporated tomorrow, not a big deal. I said, "Okay. Look, I think you're being limited here. Give us three months to test this and see what we can do." This was in the very end of April. They said, "Okay. Fine. We're going to fire the agency we've been working with, but it's going to take two weeks. You're going to actually officially be able to kick off mid-May. But in the meantime that first two weeks of May, we're going to just push all our products into the merchant center and flip a very basic shopping campaign on based on just... We don't know anything. We're just going to have the products in there. Just see what happens." I said, "Okay. Great. Can't hurt anything while we're building it out." The data, when we're on a test and measure here, Jon, the data in the month of May, half of this was just that are basic campaign. Half was us getting ramped up. Their sales went from the site in April, $16,000 to $192,000. Jon: Now, that's a return on investment. Ryan: They only spent 2,500 bucks in Shopping in the month of May to generate an additional... What is that? $176,000? The crazy thing we saw and it surprises a lot of companies, but shopping has an effect on lots of areas of your site, not just what you're going to see in analytics on Google Shopping. That $2,500 generated Google Analytics last non-direct attribution, $115,000. The organic traffic on the site went from $10,000 in April to $45,000 in May. They weren't even doing any SEO. There was a halo effect on other things that Google Shopping does because you click to a site on Google Shopping, go back and do more research. Then, you're going to come back through other channels. Direct traffic was way up. Email was way up. Social was even up and they don't even do much on social. The Buy on Google doesn't allow for that because you're buying on Google. You're not even going to the website. You don't have the ability to buy other products. We know as well, based on our research and expertise within the Google Shopping space, over 50% of the time, people click on our product to go to a site and they're going to buy something else entirely. You get to the site and you start shopping. You see the data when somebody interacts with product suggestions on a site, time on site goes up dramatically. Conversion rate goes up on dramatically by clicking that suggested product, or you might also like type products. Everything gets better. They've committed to shopping the site. Maybe you can challenge me in that in some other arena, but all you want is a traffic from Google Shopping to get to the site because everything looks better from an analytics perspective. When you don't have that because of the Buy on Google not sending people to the site, you lose all of that. When I'm seeing Google give something for free, red flags and lights and flashes of all kinds of go off in my head saying, "Okay. Either something wasn't working for Google on this. They just need to get it out there more for adoption to try to take a last gasp for effort, or are they going to try to get companies to forget about sending traffic to the site to try to convince them that Buy on Google is the only thing to be doing?" It's just interesting to say the least. Also, if you have the product in Buy on Google and also in Google Shopping, you don't get to show in both ad sets, so it's not giving you extra inventory. It's a replacement, which also tells me if it's now free, how... Yeah. Google's not bad by any means. I think Google's great company. I'm very honored to be partnered with them at the level we are. I know that they're not going to give up all their revenue from Google Shopping. Jon: Right? Well, there's something else they're getting there in terms of... It's like the old adage about Facebook. If you're not paying for it, you're the product. Ryan: Yeah. Jon: There's something here that makes me think that they're interested in the consumer data. Ryan: Yeah. They want some data, and how much are they willing to pay for that? If they have 100% of all merchants adopt that immediately because it's free, they're not willing to take a $10 billion hit in Q3 probably to see some data. Jon: Not after Q2. Ryan: Because Google already has more data than they know what do it through a degree. Again, interesting. You need to watch it, test and measure it, but often it does not make a lot of sense to utilize the Buy on Google for most eCommerce companies. Jon: Is there anything else you feel like eCommerce brands should know about Buy on Google? Ryan: If you put this on your site and you're also running Google Shopping, we've got some merchants that spend north of $10 million a year on Google. When they came to us, they're shopping... Overall, they were using Buy on Google and Google Shopping and their shopping traffic was down 40% year over year including Buy on Google. Then, they couldn't figure it out. They came to us that find out about this. They had some prior relationships with us from other companies, the eComm team that had started working with them. They brought us on and we were able to uncover that when they had flipped on Buy on Google, that's the key thing that happened to drive the volume down. They thought they were going to be adding ad sets, adding all this additional stuff, and it was going to fix their marketing costs because the numbers looked great. When they flipped it on, everything went down and the agency they had been working with just said, "Well, it's just because the market's down or your prices are too high," or they had all these excuses that just didn't necessarily hold water when we started looking at the data. It's not easy to analyze Buy on Google and what the impact on your business, because the transaction is not happening on your website. You don't see that in Google Analytics. There's a lot of matchup data. There's a lot of filtering and analysis you have to do that is very complex to actually see the impact. When I say test and measure, you're going to actually have to do a lot of work on that measuring to figure out what the impact actually is. You have to look at skew data to see, "Okay. This product, I started showing in Buy on Google. What was the impact of overall sales in taking some of my offline data?" Because the Buy on Google's not going to show up in Analytics. What does that look like? When we put it here, we started seeing what's the impressions of Google Shopping that I lost? If I lost again, easy math, a thousand impressions and 10 sales on Google Shopping when I flipped on the Buy on Google, did I get more than 10 purchases of that specific product? Probably need more than that because the halo effect of Google Shopping of my organic traffic getting more searches and clicks and purchases because of my shopping investment, that goes away. You got to take in the fact, the halo effect. Go in paranoid like I do with most things. I'll go in paranoid to start and say, "Okay. If my business is not going to go to the direction I want to, where am I going to see it? What levers am I going to need to push and pull quickly and uncover some changes?" Jon: Is that paranoid why you live on a farm and all that acreage? Ryan: No. I also have four small kids and you need room to run. We're very blessed in COVID time to have all that room. Jon: You had said at some point, as we were having this conversation a few days ago, that larger merchants will usually lose volume when they have both ads and shopping actions. Is that summarizing what you were talking about a second ago? Ryan: Generally, yeah. It's simply because you can't show both ad sets. Playing out the conspiracy theorist in me saying, "Okay. Google's... Previously, they were going to get 12% from your Buy on Google, but they knew they were getting 20% with people clicking on ads to your site, they're probably going to take the 20% margin that they were getting on click and not show the Buy on Google." Buy on Google, you don't get any search queries, so we don't actually know what you were showing for. What we were seeing often was that it was cannibalizing brand terms and taking some of the easy stuff that you were probably getting at less than 12% cost already. Not that it's bad, but even smart shopping to a degree, take some of those easy layup searches and shows a pretty strong ROI. But a lot of that was brand that maybe you could have been getting a better return on ad spend with a more complex shopping structure. That's where you can't see the data from a search query perspective, so you have to see it from a transaction perspective. You're never going to get really apples to apples, but when you're comparing it volume loss of sales or volume increase based on skew, you'll want to hopefully have a lot of that data you can be pulling. If you have smart campaigns running currently on Shopping, you're probably not a large merchant. If you are a large merchant, we should chat. Smart campaigns are quite limiting to your scale, but if you have smart shopping and then you do Buy on Google as well, you have zero data in both of those. You're just going to be able to measure total site sales and maybe they do increase, but could they have gone higher if you went just to a manual shopping campaign structure and didn't do either smart shopping or Buy on Google. It's a difficult analysis, but it's something that all brands spending over 10,000 a month on Google should probably be doing. If you're doing spending money on Google Shopping and also doing Buy on Google, you need to be doing some deep analysis of what that looks like because I would venture, I guess when you flipped Buy on Google on, you probably lost some volume because of that transit. People not being able to shop the site and add different complimentary products. Jon: Right. Ryan: Buy on Google doesn't do that. They don't know what the complimentary products would be, but if you work with Jon who's going to help you figure out some of those things that are going to help your conversion rate to help your AOV, you can only do that on your site. Jon: Right. Yeah. That's been my rub with Google Shopping and I guess Buy on Google, more specifically is that you have very little control and you lose the contact information for the buyer. This leads me to my next question, which was I had mentioned there was an article in Forbes that kick started this whole conversation. That article says something along the lines of Google just updates eCommerce game to attract more sellers, but it's still not enough to compete with Amazon. What stuck out there was not that it's not enough to compete with Amazon, but this has been viewed as a play to compete with Amazon. Do you agree that this is a play to compete with Amazon? Ryan: Well, Google and Amazon has been competing for over a decade. I don't think it's a new thing for Google to try to test waters to create more of a marketplace. It just makes sense. With over 50% of all eComm transactions happening on Amazon, there is a risk to Google on ads that people could be just moving stores to Amazon and not paying for traffic on Google. That is a potential that Google is probably well aware of, probably not giving them any insight they don't already have. Jon: But I was wondering with that approach also, they're willing to offer this for free almost as like gut punch to Amazon in that, "Hey, we'll keep the customer data and the sale. We'll give that commission up to increase the volume and steal basically the revenue away from Amazon," almost as a way as a retaliation. I'm sure Google would never say this, but for Amazon launching on platform ads, which kind of hurt... I'm sure hurt some volume on Google. Ryan: I don't necessarily think that if you are selling online, you're not aware of Google or this was what was going to all of a sudden, get you to start working with Google to a degree. I think that there is some of that there like, "Hey, we want to try to get more merchants and more data," but I don't think that that was necessarily the play for Google that they're trying to use this to be the marketplace or take down Amazon at all. Then, probably trying to get new data to see, "Oh, if it is free, what is that doing to our margin? What is that doing to the volume of people buying on Google? Does that give us the ability to push into a marketplace?" The fact that they're integrating with PayPal, the fact they're integrating with Shopify Pay is pretty big. Letting people pay with those things, so it does seem that there is a marketplace potential here and it may be if we play this out, I'm guessing that Google is taking some margin from PayPal and Shopify Pay if people are using those for the transaction. Jon: I see. Ryan: Google's Pay could be as a merchant processor at the end of the day because they already have Google Pay. If they're making enough money on the processing fees, maybe they don't need to charge for a marketplace listing. Jon: That's a great way. I hadn't thought about that, but that's a great way for them to increase the volume there, which probably makes their cost cheaper to process those overall because of the larger volumes. Yeah. That's a great idea there in terms of how this makes sense for them. That leads me to my next thought, which is that Google has really tried several ways to take a piece of the eCommerce pie in the past few years. Right? We talked about Google Pay for instance, right? But I don't see a whole lot of eCommerce brands taking advantage of it or really making it a priority to support all these things. Do you have a feeling that Google will ever become a really large player in the actual eCommerce space besides driving traffic? Ryan: I would never bet against Google. Jon: That's fair. Ryan: They have a tremendous amount of intelligent people and more data in the eCommerce space than almost any other company [inaudible 00:22:14] in Amazon just control it. I think there's so much value to owning the customer experience for brands that as a brand owner myself, I do have an Amazon storefront. I do advertise on Google. I do have my own website. I look at Amazon as a retailer because it's their customer. It's not a me customer. For me, the more people that I can get my product into their hands through Amazon, the more likely they are to become a loyal advocate brand fan for my brand and maybe they'll buy from my site. Maybe they'll follow me on social and I can get new products into them, but I know it's Amazon's customer and Google can send traffic to my site. I have a lot of affinity for that because they're willing to share all of that customer data with me and not own it. It's difficult for me to be able to give up my customer and sacrifice that data and potential relationship and experience that I know I want my customer to have on my site to ever be like, "Okay. I'll never drive traffic to my site. I'll just let the transaction happen all over the place with everybody else's system." Jon: Government antitrust interviewing aside with all these big tech companies recently. I've always wondered why Google didn't just buy Shopify before it went public or by big commerce before it goes public. I could see a massive antitrust issue there perhaps where they own the entire ecosystem, but I also think that for them to really get a piece of this pie in the longterm in terms of on the transaction side, I almost see that that's going to have to be a requirement and we'll see what happens, but it would be interesting for them to take a play there. Ryan: Yeah. I think it's going to be easier for a Shopify to move into a marketplace than it is for Google to move into a web ecosystem that you can't get out of, but there's potential that Amazon gets broken up. As big as it is, maybe they have to uncouple their fulfillment and let everybody on the planet use Amazon fulfillment or Amazon becomes just the marketplace. I foresee that as potential. I know that Shopify is moving into logistics. They're going to start fulfilling orders for their merchants. There's a lot of frenemies in the digital marketing space. You and I partner with companies that we technically can compete with on certain areas as well. It's not uncommon and it's going to be to fascinating next few years to see how a lot of this is going to shake out. Jon: Yeah. Not really on topic, but I do see that if Shopify starts fulfilling, that's a huge win for Amazon because they can go back and say, "Well, we're not on it. There's no antitrust issues here," that Shopify fulfills and they do two days. Walmart now does one day. What's the problem? You could definitely see that argument. Ryan: Yeah. I think Walmart, we need... I didn't mention. You brought up Walmart. I think they have more distribution than even Amazon. Amazon has for their FDA, I think something in the neighborhood of 77 locations around the country. Walmart's got, I don't know how many thousands of stores, but a lot of them and Shopify has all this data around all of these merchants that a lot of them sell the same thing. If you've got the same skew at Shopify system, they know where you're located. They know where you're shipping from. In theory, Shopify could start selling that particular product and saying, "Hey, merchant X, Y, Z, you have it listed for 50. We know that we can sell it for 45. Do you want to take 45 and ship it to somebody?" Yeah. Most merchants are going to be like, "Yeah. I'll take that. You're going to share this customer data with me." Kind of like the dealer network. Do you remember Shopatron? I think it's now Kibo or something like that. The dealer or the manufacturer sells it and the dealer fulfills it. That's for sure within the realm of possibility within the next couple of years. Jon: Yeah. Wow. This has been fascinating. Thank you once again for educating me on this. You're always so knowledgeable on what's happening in the Google ecosystem, not only because you guys are such great partners with them at that scale, but also that you dive really deep into this personally as a store owner and somebody who helps clients. I really appreciate your time on this today and looking forward to the next conversation, Ryan. Ryan: Yeah. Me too. Thanks, Jon. I appreciate the time and the good questions.

In every business there are tools specific to that industry or type of business that will help them grow. Ecommerce is no different. CRO is one of the most important tools to grow an Ecommerce business. Today, Jon dives into the role CRO plays in Ecommerce businesses. For help with your CRO: https://thegood.com/ TRANSCRIPT: Ryan: Oh Jon, most people start businesses because they've got skills, knowledge, and the desire to control their work and what they're actually doing on a day to day basis. I would also guess most business owners want to grow and in every business there are tools specific to that industry or type of business that help them grow. E-commerce, as we know, is no different. You and I both know CRO is one of the most important tools to grow an e-commerce business and it's never a bad time to grow. Ryan: Today I'm really excited to dive into the role CRO plays in e-commerce businesses. You, Jon McDonald, knowing more about CRO than anyone I know, can you start us off today by giving us your thoughts on CRO and the growth process of an e-comm business, at a high 30,000 foot level? Jon: Yeah, sure. Well I think the best way to think about this Ryan is that there's only a small number of ways to grow your company just at a high level before even thinking about conversion rate optimization. You can get more new customers, you can get your current customers, or even those new ones, to spend more with you, and you can get your average customer lifetime value up by getting those customers that have purchased to come back and purchase again. Those are really the only three mechanisms you have for earning more revenue out of your business. Jon: So, of course, traffic generation can hit that first one really well. We might argue, and maybe you could fill in on this a little bit Ryan, but traffic generation, when done well in digital marketing, can help you also increase average order value. Then remarketing, you can resell to the people who have already purchased perhaps and you can run campaigns around that. Jon: But I think if you're really looking to impact the first two of those in a major way, conversion rate optimization is really going to be how you're going to get a higher return on that ad spend and how you're generally just going to convert more of your visitors into buyers. So if you're thinking about growth the biggest lever with the highest return on investment, and of course, I'm biased, but I think that the highest return on investment is going to be conversion optimization because with a small investment in making it easier for people to purchase on your site you're going to get a high value back that's going to be sustainable over time. Ryan: Well yeah and I think even on a previous podcast we talked about CRO after the sale even and increasing some of that lifetime value in areas I hadn't even considered actually being CRO. Like even some of the things in the shopping cart post purchase which would increase lifetime value had never even occurred to me. Ryan: I think it does play in all three, but I think for most people as they're thinking through their entire e-comm business they're going to probably see CRO in those first two buckets of growth. As you're looking at e-comm businesses and you analyze tons of businesses, is there a place in the growth curve of an e-comm business where you really see CRO as being the most impactful? I'm thinking in my head of a bell curve and growth or maybe you're growing up to a plateau like where would you in a perfect world insert CRO? Jon: Well I think that you need to have enough traffic to effectively do certain types of CRO. Let's break this down a little bit. Let's look at this bell curve in three chunks. The first chunk would be the folks who are just getting started, maybe we'll just say less than a million dollars in revenue, which is a pretty big gap there. But that first million what you really need to be focused on is making sure people know that you exist. Jon: They need to have an easy to use website but normally you're going after those early adopters who are willing to put up with a little more complications on your site than the average customer. So it's really important for that first third of that curve that you are mainly focusing on driving traffic that is going to hit a very specific segmented marketplace that is going to be your key customers that are going to stick with you no matter. Jon: You probably aren't going to be converting much on branded terms because people don't know who you are, so when people do find your site, at that point, you want to make it as easy for them to purchase but you're not going to be able to do things like AB or multivariate testing because AB testing and multivariate testing, et cetera, require enough traffic for you to get results in a meaningful timeframe. Jon: So in that first third what I usually would want people to do is when I'm looking at these companies I want to see them collecting data. What do I mean by that? Well are they actually looking at great analytics data? Have they actually ever dived in there and customized it a little bit or is it just they just put the snippet from GA on their site and that's all they have. Jon: Couple other things to be thinking about there, like you could easily pretty cheaply get things like heat maps and movement maps. You can do that type of stuff to start understanding how people engage with your website and just make changes based on data. You don't have to test it, right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: Just make the changes. The best way to test there is just to do week over week or month over month. Now if you're making changes every day that's going to be hard to really know what worked well, but I don't want that to stop brands. They should still be tweaking their site as much as possible and then sticking to perhaps even larger changes in that first third. Ryan: In that space, in that first third, a lot of times the business owners generally don't know best practices on website. They know their industry, they know their products well. But how much would you as that business owner trust your gut looking at small pieces of data like that on a daily, weekly basis where you can't actually get an AB test and have full confidence that this is what is better. You just say hey, go with your gut on that because it's probably better than not going with your gut? Jon: Well I think that it goes back to the phrase I say quite often which is it's really hard to read the label from inside the jar. I think that with that in mind that it's still as an owner of a site and a daily operator you're still too close to it and you really still need that consumer feedback. Collecting that data and paying attention to it, even if it's only 100 visitors a day or a week, that's still data that you should be looking at. Where are people leaving, what pages are they getting stuck on perhaps, where are they dropping off in the funnel, that's all good information to know where are the holes in your bucket because they're flowing right through that bucket instead of collecting them as revenue. You really need to know where those holes are and that's really what I'm getting at here. Jon: The other thing you can be in this first third of that curve, go talk to consumers. You should email every single person who buys personally. There's not a volume at that stage under a million where you can't email every single person individually and just ask them, "Hey, this is me, this is actually me," just start the email that way. "I'm sending you a personal email. I want to know why you purchased and what your experience was." That's it. Jon: I have never gotten an email like that and I purchase online almost exclusively now, that's my job. I have never gotten a personal email from a brand. It's always an automated give me a thumbs up or thumbs down, or what's my net promoter score and they're doing it in a really horrible way. I don't want to rate you on a scale of 1 to 10, that's not what this is about. I'm not going to waste my effort there. If you sent me a person email and said, "Jon, thank you so much for buying from me, we're just starting out, as you likely know. If you didn't know, well hey, welcome to the small club. Excited you're here. Jon: I want to know about your experience because we want to continue to improve our site. Can we chat for 10 minutes at some point or can you just spend 10 minutes right now just write down your thoughts? Nothing is going to be better than that." There's a lot you can do in that first third that people just aren't doing and that's what I'm looking at these businesses if I'm going to give them a passing grade they're doing at least some of these items and most aren't. Ryan: No, I think that's important as somebody that's launched my own brands. You get, as a business owner, so many different directions that many times it's difficult to I think step back and think about okay, if I am selling online what's the most important thing to me right now. If I'm acquiring traffic I need to make sure it's doing the best. I don't like wasting money. Ryan: So I think most business owners probably need to do a little more of what I would consider some of that grunt work on their own where maybe it's not going to be your most favorite thing to do, but it's highly important if you really want this brand to work. Jon: Right. I think to get to that next level, and I would say that middle of that curve is generally a million to 25 million, big gap. But you can get easily get over a million by just doing what I mentioned. If you put in all that grunt work you will get over a million dollars a year in revenue of your site. Then once you get over that point you will likely start having enough traffic, and by enough traffic, let's just say 40 or so 1000 visitors per month. At that point, if you have 40 or so 1000 individuals hitting your website, and I should say users instead of visitors, there's a difference there in analytics. But when you have that 40,000 users on your site you can now start running AB testing on your site and actually get things to hit statistical significance, which is the mathematical formula that's going to tell you that this is proven with math that it's going to improve the metric you went after. Jon: I think that's what's really important here is that once you hit that middle part of the curve that you are really starting to invest in data-driven decision making that is run by testing ... and usually in this part when I'm looking at these businesses, these are the ones who have some money to start growing and reinvesting on a regular basis. It's usually no longer just the owner spending their own money to grow the company because when they got over that million mark now they have some employees, they start having enough margin, ideally, that they can reinvest. Maybe the owner is still involved, but they also might have hired a digital marketing manager or an e-comm manager. Jon: So at that point, that's when you really start to see some rapid growth and that's why that band is typically a million to 25 million because you can really grow pretty rapidly in there if you're AB testing in each of these 3 points we talked about earlier, which is the first time visitors, getting people to buy more, and then also a repeat customer. You can start optimizing all three of those because you have enough traffic going far down the funnel where you can even run tests in the checkout, which typically is going to be one of the pages that has the least amount of visitors to it because you're only in checkout if you're actually going to buy something. That gives you a wide range. Jon: Now if you're over 25 million, what I really start to look for there on that growth curve at that point is these people have in-house teams, generally, focused on optimization. They've proven out the value in that middle tier and now they've moved up to the top tier and they can start having a whole team centered around this, and if they don't, they realize that they're missing out. They know that they're missing out but there's something else holding them back from doing that. Jon: Generally, that's when they also either start to outsource that or they're looking to augment their team and come up with some additional new, fresh ideas because at that size they start to realize that they're too close to their site and they need some outside ideas. It could be as simple as they're just looking for test ideas or it could be as simple as they want to accelerate their testing and do more of it, or they want to train up their team and refresh the skillset there. Ryan: Got it. So grunt work "CRO" what we termed an earlier episode CRI where you're just making improvements to the site that are removing some friction even if there's not tests to back it up, you're just seeing some of the friction. Really it's 40,000 visitors, million dollars plus in revenue, really want to take the next step and grow. If you don't want to grow you're probably not even listening to this podcast. Jon: Right. Ryan: So you're probably not appropriate for this anyway. But here's something I don't think I've ever asked you about this, and I don't know why. Obviously when you're doing CRO on a site it's impacting everything all the site, all visitors are going to convert better once CRO process is going. What traffic channels generally see the biggest uptick in conversion rates once you've started the process and you're really seeing some good improvements going on? Is there a certain part of the site or type of traffic that you're seeing as just takes off really, really well? Jon: Well I think that it can affect the entire lifecycle of the customer, as we talked about earlier, and thus all the different types of channels once they get to your site. Now in terms of traffic generation channels, I think that generally what we see return on ad spend does improve because you're getting more people to convert. Now at The Good, we focus exclusively on onsite test, so we don't do any testing offsite, so we're not testing ads or any of that type of stuff. Jon: That's where Logical Position in your team comes in. But what we do see here is the match between having a successful ad campaign direct that visitor to an optimized portion of the site, that is like adding fuel to a fire. At that point they both become way more effective. So there's definitely synergies there. Jon: Now in terms of overall channels, generally, we see organic go really, really high. This is because people are already looking for you. They already know you exist. At that point, they've made their mind up that they likely want to purchase, maybe they heard about you through a friend, or it's all those channels that are going to have the people who are going to clearly fit your ideal customer profile. Jon: Now you're going to see those organic numbers really start to increase and improve because you've made the site easier to use. You've reduced all of the barriers that person who already really wants to buy that they're not going to get as frustrated. They're not going to have a reason to desert like they had prior to optimization. Jon: So that's one of the benefits because at that point you can get your cheapest traffic to be optimized and convert higher, then that's where you're going to see a massive return on your investment. But that's not to discount that you would see higher conversions from people who come by clicking on an ad and I think that's really going to be valuable in terms of return on investment. So there's a couple ways to look at that. Ryan: For a business's initial foray into CRO do you recommend their focus be on increasing the number of conversions, increasing the average order value, something else, or all of the above at the same time? Is there an order that I should be looking at those as a business owner? Jon: Yeah. I think that unfortunately The Good is in an industry called conversion rate optimization, so a lot of people come in with the expectation that conversion rate's the only metric that matters. Now I totally understand that 100% matters and if you can move that lever then you're going to see a massive return on your investment in it. But there are a ton of metrics that you do want to be looking at that are I would argue as valuable, if not more valuable and more sustainable. So if I get your conversion rate to double or I get your average order value to double we're going to have this very, very similar outcome, mathematically. People spend twice as much or let's just break it down, I get 100 people to spend $2 or I get a 100 new people to spend $1, we're going to make the same amount of revenue, right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: So I think you want to look at these metrics more holistically and then develop a plan to one, analyze where your weakness is. Maybe you already have a really strong steady conversion rate and it's more about getting your average order value up, or maybe you notice that your cart abandonment rate is really, really high, or maybe there's not enough people even adding something to a cart, so there's all these clues, there's all these clues around why people aren't buying. Jon: If you just focus on conversion rate you're going to be, as a consumer, an untrained eye or maybe just somebody who's in that first band of up to a million dollars. They're going to go online and read a bunch of articles about improving conversion rates, and the reality is, a lot of them are just going to start running discounts, do pop-ups. Do all these that will show you an immediate boost of numbers but it's not sustainable in any way. And you start having long-term systemic issues where you're stuck on the discount train and once that discount train leaves the station your consumers are always going to be expecting discounts at every single purchase and every single stop, and that's really hard to get off the tracks once that happens. Ryan: And that's not a fun business. Jon: Right. Nobody wants to be in the business of, how do I put this, of giving everybody free stuff. It's basically what it is if you over discount. So I think you really want to be thinking about what metrics are most important to moving the needle for your business. The only way to do that is to go back to what I said earlier, which is early on in your business you need to set up the right tracking. You need to get used to looking at the numbers and you need to start making data-backed decisions. If that guides you into understanding where your metrics could be improved then that should be where you're going to start working on your optimization moving forward. Ryan: Oh man, and I will double down on that statement. I have talked to so many businesses in the startup process or they've been in it a couple years even and they're with a platform like a Shopify or a Bitcommerce and they don't have Google Analytics. How are you looking at your business, oh I just look at the back end of Shopify or Bitcommerce. It's like wow, there is so much more available in a more robust analytics platform than just your shopping cart or the web platform that you utilize that I think both can be important for various things, matching each other up, verifying certain things are working, but for sure make sure your analytics is working and tracking reasonably close. Because even with the Shopifys and the Bitcommerces of the world that have 1000s, millions of users if you're Shopify, the implementations of analytics do not work the same on each one of those. They don't line up correctly all the time, so you got to make it at least line up as close as possible. Jon: Yeah and there's one thing that one of your team members at Logical Position, Brian Aldrich, he really hammered into my head over the years. I've seen him speak at the same events all the time, and stuff. He always says, "You need a single source of truth." Unfortunately, if you the e-commerce platform be your single source of truth you're missing out on a full picture. Jon: So just getting started early on using Google Analytics, or some analytics package, I mean I don't know why you wouldn't use Google Analytics for this, but make that your single source of truth because no two analytics packages are going to line up exactly, and I think that's the point you're making. Jon: But if you just look at one of them like Shopify's built-in analytics that's great for at a glance how did I do day over day, et cetera, but the reality is, it's not going to help you optimize your site so you really need to have that real truth, source of truth, be something that is a full picture of the consumer experience. Ryan: Funny enough, analytics is top of my mind because I had a contact from another one of our partners. He's going off to look at other businesses to get involved with and one of them was an analytics company, so he had me sit down and talk with him to see what it was about and if it had some validity. They started their pitch at me was, "Well you already know analytics is bad, right? Google Analytics?" I was like, "Well, no." Ryan: Their whole thing was like oh yeah, Google's just bad. Google Analytics is bad because it gives itself too much credit and doesn't actually let you see the full attribution of everything. I'm like, well, I mean I don't believe that. But you see it's probably more in depth analytics products across the board. Does one in particular stand out as a business owner when you're looking at things? Is Google Analytics okay but actually bad or is it Adobe is way, way better, or something most companies haven't heard of that they should be looking at in addition to analytics, or instead of? Jon: Well I think you make a good point here and that's that every analytics package is going to be a little different. The thing is it's all in how you use it and the consistency in which you use it, it doesn't matter which platform you use. Also, a startup doing less than 10 million, they have no business looking at Adobe. They can't afford it, just be upfront about that. So it's also what is your return on your investment going to be? Jon: If you are spending a ton of money to get some data but you're not utilizing that data to get a return on that spend then don't do it, what's the point? This is where Google Analytics really serves in a great need is yeah, look, you're giving data to Google, if you're not paying for it you are the product. So the reality is it's a trade off. A lot of people think there's privacy issues in giving that data to Google, and whatever. Jon: Reality is that if you're a site doing under a million dollars a year, or even way more than that probably, Google doesn't care about your data, quite honestly. They've got bigger fish they're working with. The reality here is that out of the box Google Analytics is a great tool to get started with. Then if you don't ever touch it and you don't customize it, yeah, there's going to be better tool sets out there that come customized out of the box. But what I highly recommend is that you start learning early about Google Analytics, you learn how to set up custom dashboards, you learn how to feed information into GA through events on your site. Jon: There are limits on what type of personally identifiable information you feed in, but you can still feed in stuff without tying it back to a user pretty easily. You don't have to send a user's email, or an order number, or a phone number, or any of that kind of stuff into GA to warehouse it there, but you should be able to feed in whenever someone buys a product you can event that says this product was sold and this is the dollar value. That's not tied back to anybody. Jon: So I think there's a lot you could be thinking about there that could extend the Google Analytics to do everything you need and it's going to happen pretty easy out of the box. Now if you're looking to do segmentation that's really drilled down and have a lot of other information, you're going to need tools on top of Google Analytics to do that. But quite honestly, Google Analytics is great for the vast majority of brands out there. Ryan: Good insights, I appreciate that. As we're winding up I do have one more question that maybe it's interesting for people or not, but what's been the longest CRO engagement you've been a part of? Jon: Yeah, it's a great question. If I understand why I usually get this question it's because people want to know how long can conversion optimization influence growth. Is that basically where you're going with this too? Ryan: Yeah, it's like is it 2 years, is it 10 years, is it 6 months. Jon: I have a couple of answers to this. The first is that we've been in business over 11 years and if conversion optimization was not a sustainable thing then there'd be no way we'd be in business this long. I think the longest that we've been, I would say, we had a customer for four or five years and the engagement ebbed and flowed over time, meaning that we would sometimes be launching a lot of tests and sometimes just be holding their hand as they went through changes and coming back and forth. But they were a paying customer of ours for a handful or quite a few years, however you want to look at that. Jon: Now an average, an average goes about two years. Right around that timeline is when I see an average customer that we've helped them get to that next level where we have helped proven the value of conversion and optimization to the point that senior management decides this line item, that's not going away, so we should probably hire and bring that team in-house. I applaud that. I think at that point it makes sense. Jon: If you have a brand that has grown and you've used optimization, and you know that you're going to continue doing this, and you have successfully changed how you think as a brand to where you know that you are going to use data to make decisions, that you're going to put the consumer interactions on your site first, that you're going to really, truly care about your consumer's user experience on your site and the customer experience over all, then great, we've done our job. Jon: We have fulfilled The Good's mission of removing all of the bad online experiences until only the good remain. If I can do that at a brand and help them eliminate all of that, and want to have that same mission, and carry the torch, then I applaud that. So I think after about two years is generally when I see brands start to take that in-house, but there's a lot of brands who decide not to and continue to work with us beyond that. Ryan: In the CRO process does it ever work where you can start and stop constantly like hey, I want to do a three month here, stop for six months, do another three months, six months, stop, does that ever work or is that just more butter and can't finish the process when you start and stop constantly like that? Jon: Yeah, look at it this way, if you want to run a marathon are you going to train to win a marathon by one week running and then taking a couple weeks off and then running again? No. You need to build up [crosstalk 00:27:03]. Ryan: Did you get my training schedule? Jon: Yeah. I'll leave that one. Ryan: Yeah. Jon: But I think it's interesting, a lot of brands and business owners approach it the same way, they just feel like hey, well I can go optimize my site right now and do this once, and be done with it. That's not how it works. I think anyone can go out and do this checklist but that's just step one, that's really just the beginning. So I think all in all that when I see that and I try to set that expectation upfront and when somebody says, "Yeah, I'm going to do this for three months and then reevaluate," it's like well you know what, we can always reevaluate. We can just have that conversation at any point. Jon: But if you're only truly going to do this for three months then we're not going to be a good fit. In fact, do not spend your money on optimization at all because it's not going to have a sustainable long-term impact. You're better off just taking that money that you are going to spend and just running a bunch of discounts on your site, or spending it to drive a lot more unqualified traffic, or doing a lot of other things just to get your brand out there. Jon: But if you really truly want sustainable investment and optimization it needs to be a small amount spent on your site in a regular interval over time and it needs to be a long-term line item. So spend each month and compound that growth very much like a retirement investment account. You need to put a little bit in with every paycheck and then eventually you're going to start getting a lot out of it that it's going to just grow and grow and grow over time. Ryan: That is a phenomenal analogy, I think, for what CRO and what you should be looking at it as. Thank you Jon, I appreciate all the insights today. Ryan: Is there anything I didn't ask that I should have or a point that you wanted to get across in this topic that you couldn't get in there? Jon: I think I wanted to emphasize that CRO can be done at a company of any size, it's just the methodology in which you're going to do that. So I think you have the option to look at getting some data and making data-backed decisions at any size company. How you might use that data and approach, are you going to use that data to run AB testing? No, not for every size company. Jon: But I do think that there are options for every size company. So the mistake I see small brands make is that they feel like they can't do optimization because it's just too expensive and they look at it as an expense instead of investment, and perhaps they're intimidated by the data. But I think that there's a lot of options out there. Ryan: Jon, thank you as always for enlightening me and teaching me something new. I appreciate it. Jon: All right, looking forward to the next chat Ryan.

Today Jon takes a look at how to improve your category pages on your website. He'll explore what you should know about headers, footers, navigation, bread crumbs, and more! For help optimizing your category pages: https://thegood.com/ TRANSCRIPT: Ryan: Hello Jon, and welcome to the podcast. Ryan: I was digging through one of our shared clients analytics, and this is a rather large international brand that most of our listeners would probably recognize if we mentioned their name. And outside the home page, the largest volume of traffic to their site is condensed into just a couple category pages. Now that's not unusual for a lot of major brands because of Google's algorithm, on the organic side, favoring category pages over product pages. But it also means that there's a huge opportunity for a brand capturing a lot of this traffic to really make that traffic work better on category pages specifically. Ryan: So through this, I'd really love to hear some of your suggestions and best practices on improving those category pages. And maybe even at least some tests people can be testing as they're looking at their category pages to make some improvements. Kind of like our CRI name we coined. What do you think of that category pages and the importance of them? And should we continue down this path? Jon: I love it. Let's gain some knowledge on this. Ryan: Fantastic. So most of the listeners probably haven't had the amazing opportunity I have of hearing you talk about landing pages as much, and just seeing some of your tear downs. And so as with most of these, let's start at the top and kind of work our way down, and even some of your general best practices, probably, in header navigation can be applied to other places of the site. Especially if you keep it consistent. But do we need to think about mobile and desktop separately in this scenario? Or just pick one and go with it? What's your usual recommendation? Jon: I would recommend that we start with desktop and keep it to that for today. The reason being is that even with e-com, I think we're seeing the vast majority of traffic is now on mobile, but still a very, very large majority of conversions are happening on desktop. Now that varies from site to site, of course, but I do believe in what we see here at the good on a daily basis is conversion kings is still on desktop. And so it always makes sense to start there. The other reason is that if you fix your desktop experience and you have a responsive site, that should, for the most part, filter down to your mobile website. And so there's no longer just a desktop and a mobile version of a site. It should be responsive or adaptive for the most part. And so with that in mind, I would highly recommend starting with desktop. And then of course you could look at mobile later, but I think for the point of today's show, we could just stick with desktop. Ryan: Yeah. And if you do maybe have a mobile site and a desktop site, you may need to contact us because we may have some abilities to fix that [inaudible 00:03:12], because that's probably a struggle for your business. There's maybe some lower hanging fruit for you, before you get into Jon's conversation about it. Jon: The number of sites I still see, it's dwindling. But there is still a number of sites out there that they have mobile on a separate domain. And that's always... It's like M dot, the domain dot com. That's when I know there's a bunch of opportunity there to increase sales and conversions. Ryan: God, John knows he's going to make that company a lot of money when they listen to them. Ryan: Okay. So let's start right at the header, very top as you're scrolling down this page as soon as you come onto it, a lot of companies do things that are not great in the header. What are some of the things that they're putting in there maybe that aren't needed or that distract from the actual conversion that they're attempting to get these people to take on the site? Jon: Well, I think the first thing is that it always blows my mind when I see a header, and these brands invested so much to get people to their site, right? Whether it be content marketing or paid ads or SEO, whatever it is. And then they immediately show them social icons, and show them ways to bounce off the site. Right? Social is great for getting people to your site, but once they're there, keep them on your site. Don't send them back out to those channels. And so really be looking in the header to keep people on a site, as opposed to sending them back off through something like social links or icons, things of that sort. That's the biggest one I see. Ryan: Okay. So as far as distractions, social is the biggest issue there. What are the things that maybe companies are missing out on in that header that they should be thinking about putting into them? Jon: Well, I think that the biggest thing people miss out on is just communicating very simply what the brand is, what the value proposition is. Jon: Now, most people don't think about including that in the header. And I'm not suggesting putting your entire company story there, your entire value prop. But what I am saying is you can communicate these things through perhaps your navigation and the language that's being used there through the utility navigation, through what's the lines of texts that goes right next to your logo, right? Jon: So a lot of people will just put a logo up and expect that because they're on your website, they know exactly what you do. Well, think about it through the eyes of a new to file customer. That customer just got to your site by clicking on a link that a friend posted on social. They have a little bit of context, but it would be great to get that reinforced and the first place, especially in Western cultures, folks are going to look is the top left corner of your site. That's generally where people put their logo, but then they miss the opportunity there of including additional context. Could be just one sentence or one line, does not have to be very huge and it can be blended in with the logo, even. Ryan: Dang it. I am taking notes. I think I need to go to some of my brands and add some, maybe, lines of contexts. Jon: Well, if you want a good example just go to thegood.com and look what we do in the top left hand corner right next to our logo. Ryan: No, that's brilliant. And I think as a business owner myself, and working with brands constantly, I'm in the business too often that I don't step out of it often enough and think about the perspective of a brand new user. I clicked on a link, maybe not even necessarily thinking before I clicked, and boom. Logo. I'm supposed to know what you do right before that, but probably I don't. Jon: Well Ryan, this applies to you based on what I'm hearing right now, but it also applies to almost every e-com brand and e-com manager. Is that it's, and I've probably said this a hundred times on this show already, but it's very difficult to read the label from inside the jar. Right? You are so close to this, you probably helped to wire frame out the site, design it, define the navigation, lay out all the content. And so you're so close to that, that you know what each link does, you know what the site is, you know your value prop. So it doesn't occur to you that other people might not get that, might not understand it. And it could use a little assistance there. Ryan: Yeah. And you've helped me a lot on navigation so I'm going to jump into that in a second. But before that, site search is a often misguided location on the site. Do you recommend that as high up as you can, as obviously as you can in the header? Or do you recommend other places on the page for that? Jon: I am not opposed to having search be front and center. Having search front and center is great for people who are second time visitors or repeat visitors to your site. They know exactly what they're looking for. Think about things like a car parts dealership, right? Or car parts retailer. People may come and know exactly what model number for that very specific part that they need. They're definitely going to know what car model that they want to put that on, so they might just search by that car model. So anyway you can give people a shortcut down the funnel, and skip steps of the funnel so that they can just get to exactly what they need as quickly as possible, is better. And I can tell you that search is going to convert twice as much, if not more, than just a regular visitor. So encouraging people to use search can really help boost conversions and sales. Ryan: Wow. That is an impressive stat. So just on average from what you see when somebody uses at least a decent search, because there's different levels of search quality- Jon: Of course. Ryan: ... On a site, but an average search you see approximately 50% increased conversion rate on the traffic that uses search versus doesn't? Jon: Right. And an easy win for listening to this is just look at your top five, maybe 10, search terms that people are using and search those yourself and see what the results are. They're likely lackluster. You can easily fix that, just go through your product detail pages that are relevant and add some additional meta information to those pages to have them pop up in search results. Things like common misspellings or the plural of an item. I can't believe how many times people don't think to add an asset at the end of an item because people may search for it that way. And also just make sure that the search results page... The results themselves matter, but also that search results page that shows those results needs to be optimized as well. A lot of people just forget about it and just show no context at all. They just show the title of the page and link to it. Why not have the description there? You already should be, on your product detail pages, having some meta-description that Google can pick up, why not display that there if it's already part of the page? Ryan: No, that's great. And I think making sure that a search that happens on the site has a listing of products, generally, make sure that you can look at that in an incognito window when you scrape the URL and paste it. That way you can use it, from a traffic generation perspective, you can drive traffic from a paid search ad. But also, if you're having enough people search that on your site, you should probably make that a category page so that Google can start indexing that as well, because you're probably not alone on your site in people searching for that product. Or group of products. Jon: Exactly. Yeah. And an easy way to find out what people are searching for, just go into your Google analytics. Most platforms, I mean they all have a little bit different perhaps, but most eCommerce platforms, the search results page is just something that ends in a question mark S equals. So if you figure out what that URL pattern is, and then you can just run a filter for that question mark S equals or whatever, and then you can understand how many times people are hitting each of those search terms. Jon: So it's pretty simple to figure out with about five minutes of work and I can promise you it will increase your conversions immediately. Ryan: Awesome. Okay, one area you've helped me a lot in sites and understanding how to improve the experience for the users is navigation. And a lot of companies tend to do this wrong. They seem to think that more is better. What do you often suggest to companies when it comes to navigation? Jon: Keep it to five items or less, first of all. Anything over that and people just assume that it's going to be a lot of work and they're not at your website to do work, right? So they just like, "I don't want to weed through all these options," and it becomes more taxing than it needs to be. What I would recommend here is you keep it to five items, but also have the navigation copy, be in the context of your customer, not of yourself. What I mean by that is so many brands try to promote themselves in the navigation. They have things like about us. Nobody's coming to your website to learn about us. Now they may want to learn more about you, but not in the main navigation. They typically will scroll down to the footer and look for that, or that information that's on your about us page should be throughout your site in places that people are actually looking for it in context. Jon: So a lot of people will do things like put home as the first navigation item. Really, we all know, we've been trained over years, that if you clicked the logo in the top left hand corner, it's going to take you to the homepage. So you can eliminate home out of your navigation. That's a real easy one. Also, highly recommend if you're an e-com site and you have only a handful of categories, that you just list the high level categories in your navigation and leave it at that. That will do two things. It clearly tells people what you sell, how you can help them. And in addition to that, it gives them a quick and easy way to get to the place they want to go to. So that again, they're skipping steps that are in that funnel by having to kind of continue to drill down and find it. Jon: So there's a lot that can be done in navigation. It needs to be clear. It needs to be concise. You need to keep it to five items. And you need to try to keep yourself out of the navigation whenever possible. Ryan: Got it. Now on many category pages I will see, in addition to the top navigation, a left hand navigation or kind of a filtering system on the left hand side of the category page. Do you have an opinion on if that is good, bad, helpful, indifferent? Jon: I think it depends on the amount of product that you're trying to sell. So let's talk about that. We were actually, just before we got on the recording here, we were talking about a shoe manufacturing brand that had a left hand navigation that was filtering, that contain, I think, 40 to 50 different check boxes, right? That you could filter by. Right? And the problem with that, I mean, they had every single shoe size as a filtering option. It wasn't a dropdown, it was just a whole bunch of check boxes. So imagine being a consumer and trying to filter, but you have to look through all of these items just to find the ones that are relevant to you. It's really not that helpful. In the end it actually, I would argue, makes it more complicated. Jon: Filtering in that way can be helpful. I think it needs to be a high level filter. What are the main differentiating points? And then once they get down to the product level within that category, then you could start doing some other points, like size, availability, in stock, out of stock, et cetera. So helpful, but it depends. And the thing it depends on is how many products are you selling? If you have a handful of products, then you don't need it. People will scroll and look at your six or eight categories. If you have 50 categories, so many that you really just can't list them all on a page. Then of course you need some filtering for categories. Ryan: Got it. Okay. Makes sense. I've seen some that are great on that left hand side and the other ones that I get lost and I just leave. Ryan: So on each category page, generally speaking, best practices are to have a piece of content for the search engines, usually three or four sentences talking about that category. It's great for SEO. A lot of platforms default to having a place for that content at the very top. Have you seen that impact conversion rates being at the top, the bottom, the side, or is it kind of like it hasn't mattered too much to what you've seen? Jon: Well, I think that ideally I would put it below. If you need it for SEO purposes, that is. Right? Because most of the time that SEO type of content is not going to be helpful to the consumer. You're trying to write for Google, you're not writing for a consumer. So in that sense, I would get it out of the consumer's way. But I do think that some content above the products on a category page could be helpful in letting people know A, where they are. So any type of wayfinding you can do there, that type of stuff can be really helpful. I do think that if you're running a promotion on one category, that could be a great place to do it. If you have a little bit, or just maybe even some branding stuff where you have an image that relates to that category, showing it in use, something of that sort, can be really, really helpful. Jon: Say you sell tents and you are showing a family and you're on the category page for four people tents, right? And so you show a family camping and are sitting around a campfire with the big tent in the background. Right? Something like that can be helpful. You're setting the context and the tone. Ryan: Now also at the top, a lot of times you're going to see bread crumbs. And I've heard some good things from you about breadcrumbs and some bad things about breadcrumbs. So how do you decide whether or not breadcrumbs are helpful? Or are they always a terrible idea? Jon: I'm not really a fan of breadcrumbs. I think at this point that what has happened, it's a hold over from SEO practices of yesterday. It's not something that I see quite often anymore that is actually helpful for a consumer. And typically you're just giving them information either that they're already aware of, or that they don't really need. And if they want to go back up a level to the homepage, for instance, because you're only on a category so you're probably one level deep, maybe two. At that point they're probably just going to click the logo and go home or look at your main navigation. So overall, likely not that helpful. It's just another piece of content you're asking your visitor to wade through before they get to the content that they really are at your page for. Ryan: Okay, good. And so, just a general question going deeper, do you like them more on product pages that can get you back to a category page? Or is it just kind of across the board breadcrumbs are not a great idea? Jon: I think that it's helpful to have a navigational item that takes people up one level. Now, when you say breadcrumb I think that it starts out with homepage, next page down category page then, then your product detail page, right? So now you're four or five items long. Most people put the entire page title in those. It's not just so and so category. Look, the breadcrumb typically is dynamically built and the way that the platforms do it is that they will use the entire page title. And so they put that into the breadcrumb. Now your breadcrumb ends up being like 300, 400 characters long. It's massive. It's stretched across the entire page. It's distraction. It's not really helpful either at that point. And all of the eye tracking that we've done at the good over all these years, people never look at the breadcrumb. It becomes blindness because they see it and they stop, maybe for a split second, but they're definitely not reading the entire breadcrumb. And that's why I say it becomes a distraction and it gets in the way. Because you're making people stop and think before you're giving them the content you want. Ryan: Got it, okay. So sitting on a category page, you see a list of all the products. More and more often on a lot of these SAS platforms, I'm seeing the ability to add to cart from the category page or even just a kind of a quick view, popup JavaScript. Have you seen some direction on whether either one of those or both of those as good or bad? Jon: I personally am not a fan of those. Unless you have a product that's like a refill or something like that, where you have a limited number of products and you have a product that somebody is coming to the site and is quickly looking for that product and knows they're going to want to buy it without having to see any additional details. Jon: Here's the thing, on category pages people are still looking and browsing and trying to find the product or service that is going to solve their pain or their need. And the challenge here is that you're putting a really high intent to purchase call to action by saying add to cart, likely when they're not at the stage where they're ready add to cart. And if you just give them one image and a title, and maybe it shows the stars and the price, and then says add to cart, I would think most products, that's not enough to get somebody to purchase. So you're blowing an opportunity to send them to a page that you can convince them and show them all the wonderful benefits of your product and how great everyone else says it is in the reviews, and show it in use, and all these other things. So you're shortchanging yourself by just having the small little thing that comes up, gives minimal details and then asks people to add it to the cart. Likely not a good idea. Ryan: Probably [inaudible 00:21:29] in the quick view as well, just from, if nothing else, an analytics perspective. Where it's going to be much more complex to track that process or that funnel like category page, product page, purchase. Whereas if I go quick view, it's got to be an actions in Google analytics, if it's a JavaScript overlay, you don't get to do as much optimization on the JavaScript overlay popup necessarily. Jon: Yeah. Ryan: That's what I would say. Jon: You end up recreating that funnel in Google analytics and it's a lot of extra work. And I just think all of the negatives outweigh any of the positives. Then people say, "Well, I added this to make it easy for people to add to cart." Well, if they're not ready to add it to cart then it's not easier. Ryan: Moving down, anything else that I kind of skipped in that middle page where we jumped into the footer? You've seen products, is there a good way to put products? How many across? How many deep? How many products on a product page makes sense? What's your default response to that? Jon: I think on the category page, there's so many times where people will do a couple of things. They'll list hundreds and hundreds of products here. I think that's obviously the best use case for filtering, and I would do that filtering at the top of the page. Jon: Great example of this is we helped, a handful of years ago, to optimize Easton Baseball's website. Now, if you don't know what Easton Baseball is, they're the number one supplier of little league aluminum bats. In little league college, about 99% of swings are done with an Easton bat. They don't do anything in the major league baseball because they don't do anything with wood and aluminum's outlawed. So what does that mean? Well, the vast majority of people coming to the site are parents looking to buy their son or daughter a baseball bat. Or a softball bat. And if you went to their category page, all you saw was a wall of grid of bats. And if you can imagine what a little picture of a bat looks like online, they all look the same. Jon: They're all these sticks that are different colors, maybe. Right? But you can't communicate out of that picture. What the benefit is between the different bats, right? And they have wildly different prices. I mean, you can get a hundred dollar Easton bat and you could go all the way up to, I think, a five or $600 Easton bat. And so if you think about it, you're a parent, you get really confused. And right away, you're just upset, right? You're like, "Man, I don't know what bat to get. I'm going to be here all day clicking through all of these." And you just get frustrated really quickly. You probably just log off and go to your sports sporting goods store and just ask the guy which bat you should buy. Who's just working the counter. Not a great experience. Jon: And so once we dug in a little bit, what we found was that there are four or five different leagues, little league being one of them, that have certifications for different bats. And if your bat that you start swinging with does not have that logo of certification on it, then the umpire is supposed to not let you swing with that bat. And so the big problem is that all these parents were buying the bats based on price or the color they thought their kid would like best or whatever that is, and would end up getting to the game and the bat wouldn't be able to be used. And that's a huge let down, not only for the parent who just invested all this time trying to figure this out and got through that frustrating experience, but then the child who is up at the plate to swing, and they're being told that they have to use someone else's bat. Jon: It was creating a really poor brand experience. And what we found was that there were a couple of things parents knew about their children. What league they were playing in, and then they knew what style of hitter that the person was. So were they swinging for the fences or are they somebody who's just trying to get on base or something in between, perhaps. And then they generally knew what size of child they needed. So right? The bat is going to be different weights based on the size of the person swinging it. So they would say, "Okay, well I have a 12 year old. He can probably swing a heavier bat than my six year old," for instance. Right? So generally you have an idea of what weight you need based on the child who's swinging the bat. Jon: So what we did was we added some filtering and we made it three quick questions. With easy dropdowns. What league is your child playing? What type of hitter are they? And then do you know what weight bat you should be using? And usually what we found, we came to that third one because coaches would often tell the parent, "Buy this weight of bat for your son or daughter." So they already had that knowledge that they could bring. So what was really great there was we turned a wall of bats into something that now became three to four options. You answered those questions and it gives you a couple of options and a range of price points. And then you could decide, for your budget, what would work best and what was the bonus of stepping up a level? Jon: And it took all the frustration out of it. And their sales went up online 200, I think, 240 something percent Euro per year. Just by taking the pain point out of their category page. Ryan: So you're saying CRO has a return on an investment? Ryan: Little shameless plug for Jon's skill set there. Jon: We wouldn't have been doing it for 11 years if there's not a return here, I can tell you that. But at the same point, I think that it's all about just increasing that consumer ease of use. And if you just have a laundry list of products on a category page, that's not very useful. Especially if they all look the same or there's very minimal difference, or if they're all wildly different products. That also was a problem. And so it's like, "Where do you start as a consumer?" You think about walking into Walmart. If you didn't know what you wanted, when you walked into Walmart, you're going to be really overwhelmed because they sell everything. Jon: Yeah, it's a very similar type of experience to that feeling that somebody would have, and you want to make it as easy to use and help them to... Let them know they're in the right place, and help them make that decision as quick as you can. Ryan: Got it. And so I would advise people, a lot of times what I've heard you say, is take your category page to Starbucks. Buy somebody coffee and have them try to do something on it, to try to see some of that, because I'm guessing the Easton people didn't even conceptually think about that. Like, "No, we have all these bats. We know which one you want. Just get this one." Rather than, "Oh, you're not a parent trying to buy a bat." Jon: That's exactly it, is that they were too close to the product. They were inside the jar, and they didn't understand the pain points that the parents were having because the parents don't know as much about the product as the staff did at Easton. Ryan: Got it. Okay. So in conclusion, we've got all the way down to the bottom of the page. We've seen all the products. What are some of the things and quick best practices to be looking at in the footer of the category page? And what are some of the things you see that people do wrong down there? Jon: Well, the first thing in the footer that most people will do is they just dump all their links, extra links, down there. And it's just a grid of link after link, after link, no order to them. Maybe they put a header above them, but generally not that helpful. Jon: The first thing you should do in your footer is you should repeat your main navigation down there. And it should be the first thing on the left hand side of your footer. That way people don't have to scroll all the way back up to continue the shopping experience. If people scrolled all the way down to your footer, they are interested in your company and in your products and they want to continue shopping. So give them an easy way to do that. Ryan: And then do I add in all the navigation links you made me take out? At the top. Jon: I think there's a place here for a secondary navigation, and there's generally room for it. So that's a good thing you could add here. I think that another thing that you could add in here is your email sign up. That's always a great place. If people are still interested, but they're not ready to buy, they reached your footer, that's a good time to say, "Hey, you know what? Sign up for email and we can stay in touch." Ryan: You mean if they ignored my popup giving them 20% off their first order if they signed up with an email? Jon: Yeah. If you have those popups around by now, we're going to have some big issues because you obviously have not been listening to the questions you ask me. Yeah. Ryan: Yeah. Do not have popups. Everybody listening to this, do not have popups for email. Please put it in the footer. Jon: And maybe we'll do a whole episode on popups. And then I- Ryan: It'd be very short. Ryan: Simple answer, don't have it. Jon: Yeah. You can get me really riled up if you just keep asking me about them. Jon: Yeah. And I think the thing that should also be on the site in the footer there is your contact information. And that should be in the bottom right hand corner. And I'm always surprised by the number of sites that don't have contact information in their bottom right hand corner. But here's the thing, it increases trust if people see that you have a way to get ahold of you, but more importantly just put a physical address there. Let them know that you're not running the site out of your parents' basement. I mean, even if you are, just list your parents' address on there. It doesn't matter, right? Nobody's going to show up to this address. What they do want to know is that you're a viable business that's not just drop shipping and with no care. That you are actually reachable by either phone or support email. Ideally the physical address is really just a reassurance tool. We see that trust increases dramatically if you list one. So I would highly recommend that. Jon: So having your contact information in the bottom right hand corner is just standard practice. That's where people are going to go if they want to get ahold of you. Somebody comes to your site, they're immediately going to scroll to the bottom right hand corner if they want to reach out to you. Ryan: Yeah, I can actually vouch for this. Recently I actually didn't purchase from a site because they didn't have an address. That just, it made me concerned like, "Oh, you're just drop shipping, you're living on the internet, you're a fly by night organization." Just surprised me after I got done. I was like, "They just didn't have an address and that's all that caused me to not buy from them? That was weird." Jon: Yeah. It's surprising, right? I mean, the return on investment in this is pretty darn high because all you have to do is go to mailboxes et cetera, or a UPS store or any of those places, right? And just get a box from them for, what is it? Five bucks a month? And nobody knows that that's the address, right? People aren't Google Mapping this address. They're literally just saying, "Is it there? If it is, okay, I feel better." Ryan: Yeah. And I mean my wife and I, we have five businesses and live where we registered a lot of the businesses. And I have them on the internet, you can find my home address and nobody comes to us. Thankfully. Because I want to keep it that way, keep my privacy. Jon: Well now we're all going to show up. Ryan: Yeah. Ryan: But I think it does. I think it's a very simple thing that I've never really thought about, even until last week when I just didn't buy from a company. And I spent all day online looking at sites. And just the simple act of putting an address in a footer would have gotten that company a sale. Jon: Exactly. Ryan: Okay. Anything we've ignored or haven't touched on on a category page that you think we should be aware of? Jon: Yeah. Don't have popups. Ryan: Just email sign in at the bottom. They're not going to get a discount, it doesn't matter. Jon: Yeah, I think we've done a pretty good job of working our way through the entire page. So I feel pretty comfortable that we've answered the majority of concerns that I would have on a category pitch today. Ryan: And understand too, you'll never be done optimizing your site. You can't. Jon: There's always something. It's interesting you mentioned those tear downs that you see me do quite often at conferences and the like, and I'm never at a loss to find content for those tear downs. You can continually optimize the site and always be iterating on the site for a better experience. It's just a fact of life, but it's something that gives you a big return on that investment. It's well worth it. Ryan: Yeah, it's kind of like that Gordon Gekko thoughts. Like, "How much is enough?" More, well what's a good conversion rate? Better. There's no answer. Jon: One that is always improving. Ryan: Yes. That's your perfect conversion rate. Ryan: All right, Jon, thank you for the time and enlightening me as well as the people that are listening into us. Jon: Yeah. Thanks. It was a great conversation. Hopefully everybody's learned a lot today. Ryan: Thank you.

Most Ecommerce brands are starting to feel like they can’t beat Amazon and thus, they must join them. Ryan unpacks the benefits of joining Amazon and the things you need to watch out for if you do. TRANSCRIPT: Jon: So, Ryan, we've all heard the old adage, "If you can't beat them, join them." Right? Ryan Garrow: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: So from what I hear on a daily basis in the conversion optimization world is that most eCommerce brands are starting to feel like they just can't beat Amazon, and thus, they must join them. If nothing else, they're looking to have a presence on Amazon so they can at least be found. It's becoming a huge search engine. I'm sure we'll talk about that. But I see a lot of good things that brands get from participating in the Amazon game, but there seemed to also be a lot of downfalls in doing so as well. So today, I'd like to pose the question, Amazon, fight or join? So Ryan, I think start just by breaking this down a little bit. What are the benefits to joining Amazon? Ryan Garrow: There are a lot. I mean, the easiest answer for that is volume, volume, volume. I mean, Amazon. There's no statistic that shows Amazon is not dominating the online ecosystem as far as volume of sales. They're over 50% every holiday season. They somehow made July into a shopping holiday because every retailer on the planet has low sales in July until Amazon comes along and says, "Well, I'll just put Prime Day out there." There are sales on Amazon. They have figured out how to remove friction from the purchase process better than any other retailer has so far in at least initially looking at it. The benefits of joining Amazon? There's a lot of volume. You can sell stuff. Jon: Okay. So what are the benefits to fighting Amazon? Ryan Garrow: Well, you enjoy pain. You like losing. The benefits of fighting it is you get to control a lot more of your brand. Amazon has been trying to do some things to improve that, but you get more control. You get customer data. It could increase your chances of having repeat purchases if they buy from your website. You get to personally handle that conversion optimization after the purchase, and you get to keep some additional margin. Amazon does charge for the platform when you sell. So there are some benefits to not selling on Amazon. Jon: If you were to choose to join Amazon, what would be your recommendations? Where should we start? Ryan Garrow: Whether you join or fight Amazon probably needs to start with what type of business are you. If you are a retailer selling other company's products through your website or even with a retail storefront as well, Amazon may not be the best place for you. Amazon, largely speaking, is the biggest retail. I mean, Walmart and Amazon are both massive retailers. Other people sell their own stuff on Amazon. Amazon also is a brand. They do have their own products that they sell as well. But as a retailer, it's probably less beneficial. Your margins are already smaller, and you're going to give another retailer some of that benefit. You race to the bottom when you're competing with the same exact product that other retailers are also selling on Amazon. If you're a manufacturer, I think there's a little more upside. You get to control your brand exposure on Amazon. As a manufacturer brand owner myself, I limit my retailers. I don't let them sell on Amazon. I want to own that and keep my cost as low as possible from an ad perspective. But the big key here too is you need to be able to protect your product. Hopefully, that's with some patents. Hopefully, it's a difficult thing for Amazon to maybe find your factory in China to have them make them cheaper for Amazon because they probably will. If you make or sell clothing, you better have a powerful brand. I mean, even Nike doesn't sell on Amazon right now. They went down that path and decided not to. I don't know the intricacies of their agreement and why Nike backed out, but Amazon is the biggest clothing manufacturer in the world. Most of the brands on Amazon for clothes are actually owned by Amazon, even if they don't say the Amazon name. It's just clothing would be difficult, but generally, most manufacturers should be considering it, at least in their process. Retailers, there's probably some different things you need to be looking at. Jon: Well, we've probably all heard the story about Allbirds, the shoe company, right? That Amazon went out and basically created a knockoff because Allbirds was selling so well on Amazon. As a consumer coming to the site, you really can't tell the difference. I've heard from numerous brands that the biggest downfall has been that they have a product that is easily reproduced or that Amazon... Maybe we should get into this a little bit, but I've even heard from people where they've done direct factory to Amazon shipping. So it's not Amazon Fulfillment Warehouse. Amazon then knows who's making the product, and then they contact those people and say, "Hey, we'll pay you a little bit more. Make it for us," or, "We'll do a much larger order if you make it for us," and then they lose their... The retailer loses the factory, and so it's something where Amazon is a double-edged sword for sure. That's why this is going to be such an interesting topic. Ryan Garrow: It is. Amazon basically is going to be frenemies with every company on the planet. They're a necessary evil for certain companies. Google and Amazon are very much frenemies. They both will say that, hey, their biggest competitor is... Google will say it's Amazon. Amazon will say it's Google. They're fighting over that search volume and that revenue from search traffic and paid ads, but Amazon is... I don't know this for sure, but I would argue probably the largest advertiser on Google and driving traffic to the apps into their website. So you have to go into Amazon with your eyes wide open, understanding that Amazon is aggressive. They are not your friend. They will stab you in the back. They will cut you if they get the chance. So you have to always be on your guard and looking at Amazon as, "How could Amazon steal this from me?" and just being operating as a paranoid brand owner or even a retailer. However you're operating on Amazon, protect yourself as often as possible, and look at it through the lens of, "If I was trying to steal this product from me or make money off of me, how would I do that? What would it look like?" Always use that lens on Amazon to see, "Does it make sense? Does it not make sense?" There's too much of a risk. There's a problem because even if you have a patent, which I'm sure Allbirds had some protectable intellectual property within their product. Amazon has more money than you, guaranteed, and they can fight you in court, and they can also probably have... They probably have enough smart lawyers on staff that they can say, "All right. Here's the patent. How can we get close enough to compete, but not necessarily actually break that product or break that patent?" It's probably going to get Amazon in trouble long-term, but in the short-term and where we're at right now, they are able to operate that way, and it's been very effective. I don't dislike Amazon, so don't hear me saying that Amazon is bad for what they're doing or how they're operating. You just as a retailer, or a brand, or a manufacturer have to understand what you're getting into in this relationship. Jon: Yeah, and I think that goes into why Nike left Amazon because Nike, I believe, originally joined on to fight counterfeits on the platform. The problem was is that it just wasn't effective. It actually made more counterfeits because they had more products on there that people could counterfeit, and then list and say it's a Nike product, and list it for cheaper than what Nike was willing to do. So then, it just became even worse for Nike. I think that's why they decided to pull out. That was my understanding. Okay. So if you choose to join, I'm hearing a couple things. Make sure you have a brand that you're selling that people know. Make sure that you have some type of protections in place not only for production of your product and manufacturing, but also on the legal or IP side with doing patents. What other things would you recommend if you choose to join into Amazon that brands do? Ryan Garrow: Based on my experience of selling multiple different ways with the same brand on Amazon, I would say utilize their FBA shipping. I don't necessarily think you need to go Vendor Central. So there's two ways you can go in there, Vendor Central or Seller Central. Jon: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Ryan Garrow: Most of the time, I advocate for Seller Central because you get to control your pricing. Whereas Vendor Central, as of now, Amazon is not great at protecting your MAP pricing. They have incentives, and they will undercut. They have some things in their agreement in the past that they've since eliminated where they have to be the lowest seller. But I think just for controlling a brand, Seller Central is good. I think a lot of Amazon is moving towards that. They've even removed a lot of people from Vendor Central that probably shouldn't have been there in the first place. In Vendor Central, you sell your product to Amazon at wholesale as a retailer, and they buy a large volume typically to get you excited. Jon: Okay. Ryan Garrow: In Seller Central, you put your own listings up and are responsible for all of the content and selling it, and you're going direct to the consumer in a way on Amazon's platform. But then, in Seller Central, you can actually do seller fulfilled shipping where you're shipping it from your warehouses or your location, or your third-party fulfillment center is sending it, or you can do FBA, which is Fulfilled By Amazon, where you send it into Amazon, and then they ship it for you. They make Prime very easy. For most companies, I'm going to advocate for FBA. Some companies want to own a little more of the packaging process, inserts, things like that, be able to communicate with the customer a little bit better direct to the consumer, and that's where maybe a third-party fulfillment or sending out on your own warehouses makes more sense. But what we've seen is that FBA seems to be getting a little bit better placements or your organic rankings are benefited a little more from having FBA on your products. As Amazon goes to one-day shipping, same-day shipping for a lot of products, it becomes a disadvantage to say, "Hey, yes. We have Seller Fulfilled Prime, but it's going to arrive in two, three, four, five days," because there's a dissatisfaction to the customer having to wait that long. Amazon is really using their competitive advantage of warehouses all over the country and a distribution network that is unrivaled probably on the planet, and that FBA allows it. Also, their shipping rates are just ridiculously good. It's just so cheap. Jon: As they became even more aware with a few presidential tweets complaining about the deal they have with the Post Office. Yeah, so what about advertising on the platform? What do you recommend there? I mean, because it seems like if you're going to join them, you might as well promote your products on the platform. Right? Ryan Garrow: Yes. I mean, there's so much search volume. There are so many people going there to buy that advertising makes sense, and Amazon is, as of now, not a great platform for product research. It is not an easy system to go start looking... If you're going to buy a coffee cup, it's not a great platform to start by searching coffee cup, and filter your way down, and try to figure out what you actually want. At this point, Google is still better at finding the products you're looking for, and so by advertising on Amazon, you do get better placement obviously and can compete for that. The conversion rates are crazy good. I mean, I don't know if I've told you, but one of my brands, my conversion rate is 25% to 35%, depending on the amount of traffic I'm driving. Jon: No. That's a good return on ad spend. Ryan Garrow: Yeah. Well, it's a $15 product and I am paying between $1.75 and $2 per click. Jon: Okay. Ryan Garrow: So you need a high conversion rate to make it work. But when you are a price point that makes sense, 15 bucks, most people in the planet won't blink at that. You click "Buy" like it's worth trying, and you trust Amazon's brand. They've built a huge amount of trust and one of the most trusted brands in the world. They know that if they don't like the product they're buying, they can easily return it with no questions asked and get their money back. So there's very low risk on Amazon to buying, which is another reason that it's nice to utilize Amazon because they send a product back, and it's resellable. It goes back in their inventory. It's not a huge issue on that part. So I would advertise for most companies at least covering your brand names, ensuring competitors aren't there. If your product page is on Amazon though, we'll have competitors on them, so that's a no, and there is some risk as well there to be considered. You might want to be bidding on your own product pages because some [inaudible 00:12:30] their products, and I would always own a trademark. It doesn't matter if you're a retailer, if you're a brand. Owning a trademark and being able to register that on Amazon gives you advantages that are not available to companies that don't have a trademark. You get a storefront. You can get specific ads that are available to you that aren't available to other companies without a trademark. Trademarks aren't that difficult to get. I went through the process myself just trying to see if I needed to pay a lawyer 2,500 bucks to get it, and I was able to get one, but just by spending about an hour of my time. Jon: Right. Ryan Garrow: So any trademark, whatsoever gives you the ability to get some benefits. Jon: So that's not a protection angle, right? If you own a trademark on a term, can other people run ads on Amazon for that same term that you own the trademark for? Ryan Garrow: As of now, yes, but you get some additional ad placements that are only available to brands, which a brand has a trademark and you get a store URL. Jon: I see. Ryan Garrow: So you get the "amazon.com/" your store, and you get to put your products on there and curate your own website, if you will. You get to put your A+ or enhanced brand content on your product pages, or we've been experimenting to see if that actually does impact conversion rates, our own... I would call it CRI for the improvement, not CRO, which Jon would correct me if I said it was CRO. But at least seeing if that has an impact. Honestly, as of now, having it as a benefit, there's not much optimization or changes you can do that will materially impact your conversion rate at least that we've seen. Jon: Okay. So this is really helpful. I feel like I have a much better understanding of why I should join in. Jon: Well, what if I choose to fight? Right? Obviously, I like the pain. Right? I like losing. Right? So I'm going to do it. Forget Amazon. I'm just going to go DTC all the way. What are your recommendations there? Ryan Garrow: You're going to need to advertise on Google and Bing through Microsoft ads to keep Amazon from taking your traffic. So both on brand and on your product searches or service searches. Don't forget Microsoft ads. So many companies forget that and Amazon is all over Bing searches. It's really cheap traffic, and too many companies overlook it, so don't forget about that one. But then, if you're going to fight Amazon and not be on there, you really have to be on brand building mode. You are not just selling products to consumers. You are building a brand, and you got to do it aggressively. So think Nordstrom, Sephora. Those are strong brands. They are just retailers. They have some of their own products, but they have a loyalty that is unparalleled in the market. If everything else is equal, my wife will buy from Sephora or Nordstrom because she wants the loyalty points and she trusts the brand more than the brand she's buying from them. So loyalty programs are going to be very important to ensuring that people come back and buy additional products from you. That lifetime value is huge, and that's whether or not you're on Amazon or not. You need to be doing these things, but it becomes more important when you're deciding that Amazon is not going to be an outlet for your product. Jon: Yeah. I was just going to say, so first of all, I know that Nordstrom notes loyalty very well. Right? Ryan Garrow: Those are dangerous. You spend a lot of money to get a glass of champagne. Jon: Yeah, yeah. The 10-point days and all these other things that Nordstrom does is a Harvard Business School case study on how to do loyalty, so that's great to hear. What else should brands be thinking about if they're going to fight Amazon? Ryan Garrow: I would consider what I call a destination retail. So my wife has been passionate about retail her entire life, and so we actually have a retail store even though in this world of eComm, and that's where I spend my entire day, I know that retail is not the best place, generally speaking, to be jumping into. Physical storefronts are struggling. Malls are closing. But if you are looking at retail, which I think there are still some significant advantages to having a physical retail presence, you need to be looking for your brand beyond just a retail store. One of the best examples I've seen of building the brand and creating an experience at retail that is not just simply going into a store and getting something off a shelf. If you've heard of Magnolia like Chip and Joanna Gaines in Waco, Texas, there's literally nothing in Waco, Texas. Other than Baylor, there's no reason that anybody would ever go to Waco. It's not easy to get to. You fly to Austin, drive a couple hours, and it's usually really hot and sweaty. No reason to go there, but they have a destination retail store that I've been dragged there, and it's a phenomenal store. There's a reason that people flock there. They just retail other people's stuff. They have some of their own brands, but my wife's retail store can buy a lot of the same things that are sold at Magnolia, but they've done a phenomenal job at building and curating their brand and causing people to want to go shop from them even if they can get the same product cheaper at a store down the street or on Amazon. Not everybody is going to be able to get their own TV show and do all the things they've done, but at least begin studying what they've done and try to emulate some of the ways they've built that crazy passion and loyalty that causes people over the country to fly and land in Waco, Texas. I went there in August. Jon: Yeah. Ryan Garrow: Ugh, it is hot, sweaty, sticky, and... Jon: Husband of the year right here. Ryan Garrow: My wife was literally in heaven. It was like the closest she's going to get to heaven on earth, and that was Waco, Texas. Jon: But I think that expresses the power of brand, one, right, and how if you've done all that other work to build the brand, then if they were to move on to Amazon at some point, I'm sure people are going on Amazon and searching Magnolia to find their products. Ryan Garrow: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: They're not finding them, so then they have to go elsewhere. But I think that definitely speaks to the power of brand and why that's going to be massively important if you don't want Amazon to go after you. Ryan Garrow: Yeah, and I would say even if you're going on Amazon to sell, you need to be building a brand. So don't take that as, "Oh, I'm going on Amazon, so don't worry about brand." It's always going to be important if you want to grow and scale, but just the magnification needed to compete with the... just sales volume, and ease of conversion, and how we are training. Amazon is training us to just do nothing, but look on Amazon and click "Buy." Sometimes I don't even price check. How sad is that? I'm super cheap. I spend all day on a computer in eCommerce, and I know that there are always better deals or easier ways to get it, but it's like, "Okay. It's going to be $3 more expensive on Amazon. I probably don't even care. I just want to get it because it's going to show up tomorrow and I don't have to worry about it." Jon: Right. It's the convenience factor, right? Ryan Garrow: It is. They've done a great job. Bezos is the richest guy in the world for a reason. He's created a monster that is phenomenally successful and very good at getting people to purchase. Jon: So what have we not covered that you feel would be really important for folks to know about the Amazon fight or join question? If they're considering this, what else do you think they should know? Ryan Garrow: I mean, just be aware of customer data, what that looks like. How valuable are repeat purchases to your brand? Does everybody buy a product you have no margin on the first one and you need them to come back and buy another one or something different to actually make the brand work and the lifetime value work? Because Amazon owns your customer if you sell on Amazon, so you have to treat them as a retailer that owns the customer. So Nordstrom, if you sell at Nordstrom, Nordstrom is going to own the customer, and they don't care if they ever buy your brand again. Amazon doesn't care if they will buy your brand again. They want the customer. So treat it like a retailer and just always go with your eyes open. There's always risks to copycats no matter where you are. If you find success, people are going to copy you. So that's just one of the functions of success. You'll always have it, but it gets, again, magnified on Amazon. Even eBay sellers will take your Amazon listing, and start selling it on eBay, and shipped direct to the consumer off of eBay from Amazon. The order will come in on eBay, and they will go immediately, automatically, usually with bots, buy it on Amazon and have it shipped directly to consumer with a gift receipt. They don't even touch the product. I have some people selling my $15 product for $25 on eBay. We're going to be a registered brand on eBay eventually at this point. There's other things that are higher priority right now in our brand growth, but just know that people are going to take your stuff, and it's just part of... what comes with success. But I would also keep some of your products on your website. Don't give Amazon everything if you choose to go there. You want to have a reason for people to maybe get your gateway drug product like the thing that people always need to start with you and that create high lifetime value customers. But try to get those customers to come back to you through your website. Once they've experienced your brand, you always want your URL on the packaging if possible because Amazon can't control your packaging, like control what goes in the box and the smiley face that goes with it, but keep your website on the packaging. A lot of companies are printing their loyalty program on the packaging. So if somebody goes to Amazon and buys, they are able to still be a part of the loyalty program with that purchase. Again, that's a way of getting that customer data off of Amazon to you as the brand so you can communicate directly. But I think step one for most companies is at least test it. There's no reason not to test what's there, and how much volume, and how it operates, so at least you can better see. If you're going to fight Amazon, you'll have some of the insight into what goes on in Amazon, and you better be prepared internally to take it on. Jon: Which brings me to a really great question, I hope, if I do say so myself because I'm about to ask it, but I'm wondering. What kind of tools exist out there to help brands on Amazon? There's going to to be a whole ecosystem of these, right? Ryan Garrow: Oh, yeah. There are tons. There are repricing tools, which can be very powerful. As a retailer, price is a huge driver of the Buy Box and the whole algorithm behind. If there's 20 people selling that same product, they all get mapped together. There's one listing officially. There are sometimes rogue ones that Amazon eventually will catch. But then, only one of those 20 retailers gets when they click "Buy," and so there's part of the algorithm that's price. If you're cheaper, your chance to get in the Buy Box are much higher. So repricing is a big deal. There's a partner of both of ours. SellerActive here in Portland does a great job at that. There are companies that will help you with listings to make them appear better. So if you have A+ content, they'll get like photographs or images in there. Product images are huge. So make sure you have good product imaging because that will be a big part of the clicks you're going to get. I'm telling most retailers to be ready for 360 images. If you can put 360s on your website, do it now. Have those ready when Amazon does release that to everybody. Right now, it's been held back to some of the larger brands at this point. I think some of it is just a bandwidth issue. 360 images are large, and it's just a... If you put a few million products all at one to have 360 images, that's a lot of server space, but just be ready. Jon: Well, if anyone has that server space, it's Amazon. Right? Ryan Garrow: Yeah, it's probably... They have it. Whether or not they're going to use it for themselves or lease it to somebody else, it's there. I would also say there are some companies out there that will own your brand on Amazon for you, and they will do the advertising. They will act as a retailer and help control Amazon. If you're going to go directly on Amazon through Seller Central or Vendor Central, you have to have some time internally to dedicate to managing that and controlling it. So if you've got retailers who are selling on there and you don't want them violating your MAP, it's going to take some work on your end. Some of these companies who will take over your brand on Amazon will help you control that. So if you just don't have the time, there are some of those companies available. Most brands now can handle Amazon direct, but it still does take some investment of time. Jon: I feel very well educated at this point. I feel like there's so much to think about, but you've done an amazing job of breaking this down, so thank you. Any final thoughts on this before we head on our way? Ryan Garrow: Just don't be scared of Amazon. Yes, it can be dangerous, but it can also be really fun, and it can be very beneficial. But if you'd go in just scared of Amazon, I think you're going to trip up, and you're going to have more issues rather than if you look at them as a potential upside or partner. I think just be optimistic rather than pessimistic when you're looking at Amazon, and I think you'll do a lot better. Jon: That's a great perspective. If you do make the leap on Amazon, hit Ryan up, and he'll help you advertise on there as well. Ryan Garrow: Yeah, or even just set some strategies so you don't lose a bunch of money. Jon: There you go. Always has proved valuable for me, so thank you so much for sharing today, Ryan. I really appreciate it. Ryan Garrow: Thank you. Jon: You've made us all smarter about Amazon and deciding whether we want to fight or join the cause. So have a wonderful day. Thank you for the interview today. Ryan Garrow: Thank you.

Jon Boles is the Founder and CEO of Avintiv Media Avintiv Media, an award-winning boutique digital marketing agency that focuses on branding, web design, and digital marketing content creation, syndication, and search engine optimization. Starting as a full service agency 4 years ago, running ads, Facebook ads, and working with celebrities and influencers in the influencer marketing niche. The agency withdrew from advertising and social media when they determined the uncontrollable volatility compromised the value add of those services. What that left was what they were passionate about anyway: branding, web design, and digital marketing – key pieces of every brand's lifecycle. Avintiv serves a wide variety of industries, but one “ideal client” is a well-funded, very-much-at-the-beginning startup with business experience. The process begins with a deep-level discovery consultation to determine the “end goal.” This usually progresses to a half-day brand workshop, which involves the brand's/company's stakeholders and the entire Avintiv strategy team. The product of that workshop is a 40-50+ business plan/investor pitch deck that covers SWOT analysis, and includes buyer personas, a mission statement, and a competitive analysis, what Jon refers to as a company's  “Bible for your business over the next 10 years.” Jon explains his company's criteria for finding startups to work with . . . relationships where the end result is win-win-win . . . the company, its customers, and Avintiv all gain. In branding, Avintiv may provide a company name, logos, icons, SKUs, a style guide, typography, colors, and with e-commerce or product-based businesses, product development and design. The in-house development/creative team builds out a custom WordPress or Shopify website. The SEO team takes over at that point, providing keywords, creating a 6- to 12-month SEO campaign, and writing the content. The second “ideal client” is one that has grown in the past and wants to grow today, but can't seem to “move the needle” in today's business climate. Avintiv takes these companies through the entire buyer's journey to clarify who their customers really are . . . and why they buy. Working off data, Avintiv identifies the buyers and price points companies need to target, redesigns the website to fit buyer needs. Jon has found that working with investors and investor firms can be very effective, because investors appreciate that working with Avintiv increases the odds of recouping their investments. In this interview, Jon talks about the impact of corona virus . . . that he believes it will probably change a lot of the way we do business, that brands will need to pay closer attention to detail, that a “less trusting” population will research more, judge organizations' actions more during these hard times, and look for good people and good companies with which to do business. Jon says that he has found that, people in quarantine have become more engaged and more focused on providing good to the community. People whose work typically comes with a high price tag are jumping in and offering their services for free. In the same vein, Jon says he has no passion for building something for himself: his passion is for changing other people's lives. He expects the coming year to be one of unprecedented growth. Jon's company can be reached on its website at: www.avintivmedia.com or through Instagram t @AvintivMedia. Jon is best reached on Instagram @JonBoles.   ROB: Welcome to the Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Kischuk, and I'm joined today by Jon Boles. Jon is the Founder and CEO at Avintiv Media based in Scottsdale, Arizona. Welcome to the podcast, Jon. JON: How's it going, my man? ROB: It's going great. You? JON: No complaints this week as of yet. It's pretty crazy what's going on in the world, but we're prepared for it. ROB: Sure. We're dead in mid-late March, right in the thick of the coronavirus, and everybody is sheltering in place. But we are sheltering on a podcast. Why don't you start off, Jon, by telling us about Avintiv Media and where Avintiv excels? JON: Avintiv Media is an award-winning boutique digital marketing agency in Scottsdale, Arizona, and we specialize in three solutions for our clients: branding, web design, and digital marketing. With digital marketing, what we hone in on is content creation and syndication and SEO. Essentially, we launched Avintiv 4 years ago. We were a full service agency. We ran ads, we did Facebook ads, we did influencer marketing, we worked with a lot of celebrities and influencers. We just realized what we weren't passionate about anymore. We realized what we were passionate about, and that is building brands, and that's only offering services that we truly believe in. With how volatile and how up-and-down advertising is, social media channels are, we didn't feel that we had enough control over them to have them be fully valuable for a client. So we focus on those three services. ROB: Perfect. Those three services seem like a natural lifecycle that any brand is going to go through. JON: Exactly. ROB: The need for a brand refresh, the need to speak that into the world, and then the need to continue sustaining that. Do people often come to you at the branding end of things, or is it really they enter into that virtuous cycle at every point but still go through that cycle? JON: That's such a great question. I'm glad you asked that. The reason why we offer those three services – my background is consulting, so I've been building brands for close to 11 years now, probably built and scaled over 250 or 300 brands in the past 10 years so far. I found a common element on what it takes to start a brand, grow a brand, and keep growing it with trust and redoing the branding and redoing landing pages, websites, and that is why we offer those services that we do. To answer your question, we have two really ideal customers that come to us. We have a plethora of different industries that we serve, but our ideal customers that we know are going to be grand slams, it's going to be a win-win for both parties, is startups that haven't gotten started yet and they have funding behind them, whether it's an angel investor or they have family money behind them. They are already seasoned with business. They either have a good job or they've started companies in the past, and they realize that the statistics are against starting a small business or starting a business. The odds are against you. People come to Avintiv or to myself and they want it done right the first way. We start with the discovery; that goes into a small consultation to get to know them. What are their goals? What are their dreams? We dive inside their head, deeper than they've even gone, and figure out what they really wanting to start this company for. Is it an exit? Is it this is their lifelong dream that they've dreamt of since they were a child? What is their end goal? What happens is after that consultation, 9 times out of 10 it goes into a brand workshop. A brand workshop is a half-day consultation with our entire strategy team and whatever stakeholders are in that brand or that company. Then that dives into 40-50+ pages that we create for them. It's a new aged business plan/investor pitch deck, if you would. It goes over SWOT analysis, we create buyer personas, we create a mission statement, we go over your competition. It's the Bible for your business over the next 10 years. Clients really love that because it gives them, their team, their investors, or anyone involved the playbook of who they are, why they're doing what they're doing, and it creates validity to them starting this company. It gives them hope that this can be successful. After that, we help brand with naming, coming up with the name – or if they already have the name that they want, it goes into logo, icons, it goes into style guide, typography, colors, the whole nine yards. If it's an ecommerce or a product-based business, we then go into the product development and design. We were big in 2019 in the CBD industry. We had multiple clients that did the brand workshop. We then created 20 different SKUs for them, whether it was gummies, tinctures, bottles – you name it and we created – the bottles, the SKUs. We did a CBD water company in 1,200 or 2,400 Circle Ks, so we had to do different line item SKUs for them. Once it's in the product design phase and the packaging design phase, then we start building out the website. Once the website is fully built out, we do custom WordPress or Shopify, depending on what the client's needs are. We have in-house devs, in-house creative team, so it's not outsourced to Asia or India or anything like that. Once the website is getting ready to launch, our SEO team hops in and redoes all the on-page SEO. We build out their keyword analysis and basically create their 6- to 12-month SEO campaign, and we start writing the content. That's how we launch a lot of the companies. And we do consult with them what they should be doing on social media, what they should be doing on the ground with their team, and vice versa. So that's a 20,000-foot approach of a new brand that would hire us. Then we have a lot of companies that are 2 to 20 years old that have hit plateaus. They scaled up really quickly or they bought their family's business from them or they've bought a company or they just don't know how to grow in 2020. They come to us, and it's almost the same process. It's just a company that's doing a couple million in revenue and that's not good enough for them. They want to hire more employees. They want to scale up to more cities. They go through the exact same process that I just mentioned to you. ROB: Very interesting. One thing that's interesting there is that I think with an established brand, you as the agency have the advantage of they have customers; they may just not fully understand them. They may not fully understand why they are customers. It seems like you would be able to come in as Avintiv and pull on that thread and understand the deeper customer road and innovations. One thing that is hard in the startup world and the raising money world is that sometimes the ideal customer for them is a little bit more hypothetical. How do you walk through that process of helping them discover what is real versus what is an imagined fiction that they've been pushed towards – sometimes just in order to raise money? JON: I'll start with the first question and follow back with the startups. The first question you asked – yeah, I think it's vital for an already-successful company that's hit a plateau to come to us because they think they know their customers, but they've had so many employee changeovers, their team is much larger than it used to be. The owner thinks they know who their customers are because when they started it 2 to 10 years ago and they were the sales guy, they were on the frontlines – as the business grows, the CEO or the founder is not on the frontlines anymore. As time goes on – I've even been at fault for this in the past with other ecommerce companies – you start to lose who your customers are and what is making them purchase from you. We go through an entire customer buyer journey with them, and we even interview some of their customers and some of their clients and go through the whole process. “What is your buying process? Why do you buy from them? What makes you light up about working with this company?” The findings of that is it's almost like an out-of-body experience for business owners that have been in business for so long because it's completely different than anything they would've thought. The reasons why these customers shop with them or go to them are things they don't even focus on. That allows us to go back and figure out the three differentiators. Why do people shop with them? Why do people go to them for business? That allows us to help redesign the website and focus on why people go there, and use that as the language. That helps big time. Now, on the second question, for startups, you have a lot of people that are trying to raise money. Yeah, they put different types of Baby Boomers or millennials or this or that because they think that's the cool thing to talk about or they read a press release on Forbes or Entrepreneur.com and they're adding personas in there. What we do is go on data. We're not just throwing crap against the wall and hoping it sticks. Our team of analysts and our team of strategists, including myself, we've been researching for 10 years, so we know exactly what materials and resources to use, how to dive in, dive deep. We're able to find other business plans and other things that are already out there and basically pull together a web of different resources and show the entrepreneurs, “Hey, this is why your personas are a little bit off. Really, it's this person who's going to be buying from you. The price point needs to be XYZ, not what you had in your pitch deck.” You might grow a little bit slower, you might grow a little bit faster, but we go off data. That's why investors and investor firms – we partner with a couple investment firms – they love working with us because when you work with Avintiv, the investor has higher odds of getting their return back, and at a quicker pace. But if you're working with an entrepreneur and this is their second or third business and there's really no direction, it's just going off of them, it's a lot riskier doing that because the investor is thinking, “What if something happens? What if they get burnout? What if this happens?” When you have an agency that knows what they're doing, we have as many case studies as we do, we have as much experience in the industry as we do, investors feel very safe working with us because our team acts as if we're the owners of the company as well. The past two weeks of coronavirus, I think I worked with our whole team till 9:30 at night. I've never worked that late with my team. I usually work that late, but my team goes above and beyond for the brands that we work with, especially in times of emergency like this. We're adding so many more hours to projects and not charging for them. We're just trying to provide as much value as possible right now. ROB: Absolutely. A lot of that value in this season is going to be probably going back to some of the diagnosis you've already done on customers, and some of it's going to be figuring out almost testing new ways of doing business. What are you seeing with maybe a customer or two that is finding a new way that they have to do business and actually learning about their customers in the process? JON: The good thing is our clients right now have been affected a little bit by what's going on, but I think that every one of our clients is understanding that they need to pay a lot more attention to marketing, to the words that they use, to every detail of everything that they publish. When people hire us, I'm very OCD. Our team is very OCD. We don't agree with us doing a Rolls-Royce style brand, logo, and packaging, but your social media looks like crap or your website looks like crap. I think clients are now understanding that the world is evolving to a place that isn't really trusting right now. The American people, or people around the world, aren't really trusting the government. They don't know what's real, they don't know what's fake. They're not really trusting banks. So I think 2020, people are going to be taking a step back and they're going to be thinking about their purchases a little bit more. They're going to be doing a little bit more research. They're going to be going from your website to your social media handles to see how you talk. People are wanting to invest in companies that stand for something, that are good people. I hate to say it, but a lot of businesses right now aren't being positive on social media and they're not being the light at the end of a dark tunnel. Customers are judging you. They're looking at you on what emails you're sending about the coronavirus, how you're acting in this type of emergency, because they're not going to come back and shop with you – if you can't handle yourself in an emergency, why do you deserve them when times are good? I think the biggest thing for brands right now is they have to pay attention to the details. I think for the agency world, the marketing agency industry and world is going to skyrocket over the next couple of months. We're looking at our sales forecasting, and it's not even about revenue for us. It's about the lives of our clients that we can change, and every client that we work with, they have hundreds if not thousands or millions of customers. So when we provide value to our one client, it's almost like we just impacted 10 million people. ROB: It's a good point you make that we're moving into a slightly longer buyer journey, in some cases because of trust and I think in other cases because we just can't get things as fast as we're used to and we don't need them as fast as we're used to. You order from Amazon Prime and it's not two days anymore sometimes. Sometimes it's four. You order from Instacart, sometimes you can't get an appointment for over a week. We're not as impulsive and the economy is not as booming, so people are going to think, and it's great that they're going to be able to think about and trust you. If we rewind that journey a little bit, how did you come to start Avintiv Media in the first place? What led you to the beginning of this journey? JON: Great question. I think most agency owners that would listen to this can agree – I kind of fell into it. I didn't plan on starting an agency. At the time, my background was consulting. I was in the bar and restaurant industry for a number of years, owned different establishments, was in event planning and event marketing. I owned a consulting firm. Then I got into ecommerce for a little bit. When I started Avintiv, I had an ecommerce clothing company that was booming at the time, and I kept hiring web developers and I kept hiring agencies to do Facebook ads and work on our marketing for us because even though I'm self-taught, being the CEO of a startup, you can't manage all aspects of everything. So I kept outsourcing it to different agencies, different people. Every developer I hired fell short of what I wanted, and then they wanted more money, they wanted more money. Then they took my website and threatened to not give the website back if we didn't pay an absurd fee. I just got sick and tired of being screwed over. The agencies that we were hiring – and I'm sure anyone that ran Facebook ads a couple years ago – there's a couple different settings on the Facebook ad ROIs you can click. One of them shows, “if this many people go to this landing page or add to cart, that's what the total would be.” Our agencies were acting as if those were our revenue numbers, and I didn't catch on for a couple of months because I was running at the speed of light. My accountant told me, “Dude, you're not doing as much revenue as this agency is making it seem, and you're not even profitable working with these guys.” I used two agencies, and both of them were not as truthful as I would've liked them to be. I kept having people reach out to me about a year after that like, “Hey, who did your logo? Who did your website? Who's running your social media?” I was doing everything. I taught myself web development. I taught myself videography. My background was social media, so I had that on lockdown. People kept reaching out to me, and I said, wow, there must be a need in the marketplace for offering these types of services that everyone keeps contacting me for. So I started building a couple websites for a couple local brands, and it evolved into I couldn't take on any more clients because I was at capacity. We were profitable the first week we launched the agency, and it evolved into being what it is today with having a full team and phenomenal clients. We're hitting our 4 years in April next month, and it's kind of like an out-of-body experience. I realized in this journey, I don't have a passion for building my own brands and selling my own products and launching – I owned a couple CBD brands last year. I don't have a passion for building my own thing. I have a passion for changing other people's lives. I've been a coach and consultant; I love changing an entrepreneur's life. I love giving them a phenomenal experience. That's why I love Avintiv so much, because we are so passionate about building other people's brands that change the world. We're working with a local health and wellness clinic in Scottsdale that's actually a very big clinic, and he is one of the most talented doctors I've ever met in 31 years of my life, doing holistic type of medicine, IV drips, Botox – a variety of different things. He has a new, modern way of doing medicine, and the amount of lives this guy is going to change just by us being able to redo his branding, his website, and sending him in a different direction – that's what gives me fuel to keep growing the agency. But if it was me just selling my own products and trying to get rich and things like that, I don't have a passion for that. ROB: It's hard to come across as genuine with a passion for that because it seems like you're serving yourself maybe more than your clients. How did you come to find this particular resonance with startups? Were you tapped into a vein locally? Is there a regional connection? Or do you think it's just a natural resonance with who you are and that brand building connection? JON: When I started my clothing company before I sold it, I posted my whole journey on Instagram, on social media. I'm talking about our first initial designs 6-7 years ago, and then our first warehouse, and people saw me use my living room as my warehouse, and then we got a bigger warehouse. So I've been sharing my journey for a number of years. But not only that, any industry I've been in, I'm blessed to be I guess you could say a social butterfly. No matter what city I live in or where I'm at, I'm able to meet the who's who that runs that city, become friends with them. I'm a likeable guy. I'm someone that doesn't screw anyone over. I have a lot of friends. I think that has helped me build a good amount of following and people that pay attention to me, along with press releases or certain things. I think it's just a combination of who I am and the journey of me sharing my journey. People have seen how many startups I've built or have consulted, or people ask around town, “Hey, I have this new company idea. Who's the best person in town I could ask?”, and 9 times out of 10, people send them my way. ROB: As a social butterfly, I'm sure there's a certain extent to which you have also engaged with other social butterflies. How are you finding to connect and scratch that itch in this season we're in, where you're probably not getting together with people you don't know? JON: To be honest, if you look on my Instagram page or any public stuff that's out there of me, it probably looks like I'm the life of networking, going out – not partying, but being out and about and socializing. I am such an introvert. I'm standing, as I'm talking to you, at my bookshelf right now. Being locked in, reading books and working, I don't think I could be happier right now. Yeah, it's a little weird not going out, but I honestly think it's a little bit easier to connect with people right now. I have a lot of “celebrity influencer” friends that are in LA that it might take them a week or two weeks to text back or to get back. I'm talking to people I haven't talked to in years or months. I'm talking to my family more than ever. So I think what's going on with us all being locked in, I think people are more accessible. I'm hopping on so many free consultation calls and discovery calls that I would usually charge a pretty high rate for just because I have extra time on my hands. I'm not traveling to the office, I'm not traveling to the gym, so why not provide more value? I know a lot of friends or people of that nature, influencers in LA, New York, Miami, they're doing the same thing. And these are guys who charge a couple thousand dollars an hour, and they're hopping on tons of free webinars, they're hopping on free Zoom calls. I think it's a really cool thing, what's going on right now. All of us are trying to just be there for people that are scared and don't know where to turn. ROB: That's perfect. It's such a great time to give and to build trust – not that it isn't always time to build trust. Jon, as you look back, what are a couple things you've learned from building Avintiv in these 4 years that you would do differently if you were starting from scratch? JON: A couple of different things. Before I started Avintiv, I wish I would've understood the accounting and financial realm a little bit better. I always thought that having the best accountants, they would fix everything. I ran into a bad experience about 5 or 6 years ago when one of my accountants was going through chemo and had cancer and actually dropped the ball with a couple of things, and I didn't notice it because I didn't know it as well as I should have. So understanding the fundamentals of business – not per industry or what type of business, but just understanding accounting and business from a financial aspect. That's one of the things. Two, from an agency standpoint, I probably would've niched down immediately. Although I did, but the niche I chose was more fitness and fitness product realm, and there's not a lot of money in the fitness industry, as much as people might portray that. So I would've definitely niched down in the beginning, and I might've only launched one service. If I had to start over or if Avintiv sells down the road one day and I had to redo the agency realm, I would probably launch three individual brands. I would start with SEO. I would build a multiple 6-figure per month MRR SEO agency. I would then build a web design agency, and then I would build a branding agency. All three have different managers that run the businesses, all internal team members, and we outsource in between the companies. I would run each individual solely. When you're running your advertising and your lead gen for each of those businesses, you don't have to talk about web design or branding. You talk about SEO. It's simply SEO and content. So I would have three individual brands that basically live in the same ecosystem, but to the general public, they don't. ROB: Right, so to the general public, it wouldn't be a white label pass through. It would be a partnership to the world? JON: Exactly. ROB: Got it. What's next for Avintiv? What are you looking forward to? What do you think we should be looking to in the marketing world as we're looking ahead? JON: Oh man. What's next for Avintiv is, now seeing how busy everything is going to be, I definitely think that we're able to double in size and double in revenue this year. We might be going remote for the next couple of months just because it doesn't make sense having expensive office space when our city isn't even letting us operate out of our office. So we might be going remote for a couple of months. But I would like to scale the team up to about 15 in-house employees, a little bit bigger office space this year, and be the go-to for building startups and rebuilding brands that are hitting a plateau. 2020 is the first year that Avintiv has been my only company and my only focus. I had a lot of different fires out there in 2019. I owned a couple CBD brands, I was in the credit card processing space, and the opportunity cost that hit me – I was so passionate about helping these other brands grow that I got equity plays and equity pieces. It took my eye off the ball. So 2020 is honestly the first year since we've launched Avintiv where it is my only and sole focus. If we've grown this far in 4 years and it's only been 25% or 30% of what I do day to day, I'm pretty excited to see what 100% looks like. ROB: Wow. A lot of times when we have our hand in too many things, it becomes very difficult to find that margin and time to reflect and really gather the confidence that you've got to do something else, you have to change how you're doing things. How did you find that margin to realize the things you needed to cut out of your own world, the things you were more passionate and less passionate about, and focus solely on Avintiv? JON: I go through phases of cycles of what books I read and what coaches I hire. I had an out-of-body experience towards the end of 2019 and towards the beginning of 2020, and I just found out that I had too much – and I never usually have anxiety or stress. I live in a stressful environment doing what I do, but I never usually let it get to me. It started to get to me a little bit, and I said, what the heck is going on in my life that I can't really control – all of a sudden I'm having anxiety on a Monday or a Tuesday? I started to realize I was waking up and I was consulting for a financial client, and then I was running a CBD company, and then I was an agency owner, and then I was consulting on SEO and content. I was too many people in a given day where I'd come home – at the time I was in a relationship, and then I had to play boyfriend, or son. There was no time for me to sit back and just be Jon. I was 15 or 20 different people to so many different people, and I was filling so many other people's cups versus my own. I was taking care of everyone's needs but my own. ROB: Sometimes we do need that sort of break. If I look back to your ideal customers, I think one challenge people often find themselves in is when you're looking at startups, how do you qualify the ones who are good clients, and how do you qualify the ones that are going to have you do a bunch of work and not pay you? How do you think about discernment when it comes to the startup world? JON: Great question. We've run into some payment issues with the CBD industry, but now, going through that – and it pays to have a great collections agency and a great legal team behind your back. We're pretty protected when it comes to that. But we have a pretty good and robust discovery and consultation process where we can smell bull from a mile away. I've been doing this for so long where I trained my team to ask certain questions. And it's not that we don't want to help startups that don't have the funding or don't have the money, but we will be doing a disservice to you if you don't pay for what our services are worth because our team is going to resent working for you, we're not going to be able to profit or be able to pay for things. So at the end of the day, we don't usually work with people that don't have funding or they can't cope with money just because, even though it's not a business transaction, it has to be a win-win scenario. It can't be a win-lose scenario where we feel so bad for the startup and this entrepreneur because he or she is such a good person that we're going to discount our services 50% so they win. That is going to be a loss for us. It always has to be a win-win. We always tell our clients we want it to be a win-win-win scenario. All of our clients that we help are B2C, the majority of them. So if we help our clients succeed and we make our customers happy, those are two wins. And if those two people are happy, that equals a win for Avintiv. So we are in the win-win-win type of business. We just brought on a startup a month ago, and he's a very successful pilot. We can see that if someone has already had a career for 25 years or 20 years and they make a really good living, that shows us that there's probably capital that backs them. They went through schooling. Being a pilot is a rigorous checks and balances. They have a crazy amount of processes. So that would fit in line with how we run our agency. Now, if someone hasn't been employed for 10 or 15 years and they've had a couple startups that have failed, this is a new great idea that's going to take over the world, but they talk about crazy things like “This is the next billion dollar idea! I want to create this and sell it in two years for $5 million!”, like half the CBD startups out there right now, we won't work with them. The expectations that they've fed into their head are not real, and I don't want to be the bearer of bad news to tell them that there's no Santa Claus. Everyone thinks “because this company sold for X” or “Elon Musk created this,” that it's possible for anyone. I'm never the guy that's going to kill someone's dreams or say you can't do anything; I'm actually the guy that thinks anyone can do anything if they believe in themselves. But we're not going to go along on the ride if you're going to be dragging us through the mud with you because we're just not at that place anymore. Maybe 4-5 years ago, we would've tested the waters. But we have a big enough clientele and portfolio and case studies now where we are very choosy with who we work with. We can pick and choose very easily, and we turn down clients left and right. If it's not going to be a win-win-win, we're not going to work with you because you're going to be mad at us, we're going to be mad at you, and it's just going to create resentment. ROB: It almost sounds like a hiring decision. JON: Oh, one hundred percent. It's funny when clients are on a discovery call or consultation call and they think that they're interviewing us, and when the roles get reversed and we start interviewing them, they're like, “Wait a second. What's going on here?” It's like, we only take on X amount of clients per quarter, projects of this size. We want to make sure that our whole team would enjoy working on your project. It's not about revenue or profit for us. If our creative team is going to be bored out of their mind working on this project, we're not going to do it because that is going to stunt their growth for every other project they work on. So we are so careful with who we work with. ROB: Perfect. Jon, when people want to find you and want to find Avintiv Media, where should they go? JON: You can go to www.avintivmedia.com. Otherwise, our Instagram handle is @AvintivMedia. Otherwise, I am mainly on Instagram @JonBoles. It's got a little verified checkmark next to it, so it's pretty easy to find. ROB: That's a solid move there. Jon, thank you for coming on the podcast. Looking forward to that doubling growth here in 2020. JON: Thank you so much for having me. Hopefully I was able to provide a little bit of value to you guys. ROB: I definitely think so. Take care. Thank you for listening. The Marketing Agency Leadership Podcast is presented by Converge. Converge helps digital marketing agencies and brands automate their reporting so they can be more profitable, accurate, and responsive. To learn more about how Converge can automate your marketing reporting, email info@convergehq.com, or visit us on the web at convergehq.com.

Jon dives into why Conversion Rate Optimization doesn’t stop after the purchase and the different points after-purchase that you need to optimize in order to drive higher revenues. Link: The Essential Guide to Ecommerce Sales Promotions (https://thegood.com/insights/essential-ecommerce-promotion-guide/) (In this article, #51-78 are focused on promotions you can run that aren't discounts) Outline: First, Jon cover’s different points after purchase that CRO can have an impact: In cart, right after purchase -Thank you page Email post-purchase sequence: -Confirmation email -Shipping confirmation -Customer service -Please leave a review – just click here -Add to general marketing email list sends He also explains the metrics a brand should be looking at to track progress of post-purchase optimization: -Return purchase -CLTV -Conversion (overall, should go up with repeat customers!) Jon is a firm believer that companies shouldn’t use discounting in post-purchase communications. However, there may be offers you can make that are not discounts. You do not want to become a discount brand. Finally, Jon explains that a successful method for getting referrals post-purchase outside of a set loyalty program is just to ask! Very few do! Transcript: Ryan: Jon, today, I really want to move our focus to an area that I think many companies and individuals would not normally think of conversion rate optimization and the impact it can have. I'm talking about post-purchase. Most people generally would assume that once a purchase happens on the website, CRO has done its job, time to move to the next person on the site and get them to convert. But, because I know you, I'm aware that CRO doesn't stop at the purchase. There's a lot more to be done. Can you explain to people, that maybe aren't aware of post-purchase conversion rate optimization, what they need to be thinking about, what they need to be doing, and why it even exists after they've already taken the sale, done what you wanted them to do originally? Jon: Right, and I think that's an important point there, Ryan, which is that most people think that conversion optimization stops as soon as you get someone to purchase. I think that's really shortsighted and it's a big problem because so much of the consumer experience and getting people to purchase a second time, is all about what happens when they purchase that first time. So, if you get them to convert, your job's not done. At that point... you got to think of this like a marathon. You just ran a marathon. Most people who are seasoned marathon runners, they get through that finish line. They have a process they still go through to cool down, protect their body, recover a little bit. It's the same thing here. After you've- Ryan: ... And I just go drink beer. Jon: ... Right, exactly, and that's why you don't run marathons. Ryan: That's why I don't. Jon: Learned that lesson the hard way, huh? Ryan: Uh-huh (affirmative), I did. Jon: Yeah, so exactly, this is it, where we can't just stop and drink a beer. You've got to go through a follow-up process here that can really, really have a massive impact on your overall metrics of your site and success and revenue, and even your conversion rate, because most people don't think about that. But overall, your conversion rate should go up with repeat customers. Ryan: True. Jon: There's a handful of things you should be thinking about that I think we should talk about today. There's a bunch of different points after purchase that can have an impact with conversion rate optimization, and if you optimize these points, you will see higher revenues. Ryan: Okay, so somebody's purchased on my site or client's site. Action's done. Does post-purchase conversion rate start after the product arrives, or where's the first point that we can be making an impact to improve conversion rates in the future? Jon: In the cart. It starts right then. As soon as somebody completes the order, gives you their payment, what happens? Ryan: Hmm. Jon: Most of the time, people aren't really considering the first step, which is a thank you page. What is the content that you're putting on there? Now, there are ways to, even on that thank you page, influence so many extra metrics. You can influence your average order value on that thank you page. There's some great tools out there right now. One of my favorites is a company called CartHook. CartHook has a tool, where you put it onto your thank you page, and it actually shows you complimentary products to what you bought and says, "Do you want to add it to the order?" You're doing an upsell after the purchase. You already got them to commit, and maybe they're thinking, "I bought those shoes, maybe I'll add a pair of socks. Why not?" Ryan: Now is that in addition to maybe also having upsell in the shopping cart, or do you usually recommend just get them to commit to something and then try to upsell them later? Jon: Right. I think that's a big mistake people make is to do the upsells in the cart. I don't think that's serving the consumers' needs, because serving the consumers' needs is helping them complete that checkout as quickly and easily as possible. You want to get that conversion. That's most important, obviously. So, after you've completed that sale, then, go back and do the upsells. Now, that doesn't mean you're not doing upsells throughout the funnel and throughout the product detail page or categories, things of that sort, right, complimentary products. But I don't think you should be doing it in the cart. That's when you just closed the transaction, at that point. Jon: A lot of people like to think of it like retail, where you're at a grocery store and they have all the candy bars and magazines, and you're just standing there in line. It's not like that because online, you shouldn't be waiting around at the checkout. Those items are there at the grocery store line because you're waiting for the person in front of you. You're likely bored, and they're capturing your attention. It's a captive market. Well, when you're in the cart and you're checking out online, you just have one goal, and that's to get it done. So, anything you put in the way there is actually going to become a distraction and annoying for the consumer. Not something where, "You're entertaining me with the latest gossip about celebrities for five minutes while I'm waiting for the family in front of me that's scanning 300 items at the grocery store." Ryan: Oh, you follow me at the grocery store, huh Jon?" Jon: Exactly. I got one kid. I can't imagine having a whole family like yourself. I think the first step is definitely in-cart, on that thank you page. Pay attention to the messaging. You can run a lot of A/B tests on the messaging alone and see what resonates. But also, adding a tool like CartHook, where you're figuring out all of these additional metrics and how to increase things like customer lifetime value, average order value. All of that kind of even goes back into your ROAS, your return on ad spend. If you start thinking about it this way, the higher your average order value, the higher your return on ad spend. Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Now, in addition to something like a CartHook offering up some complimentary products, is there any kind of messaging or kind of like, "Hey, I really want to make them feel good about what they just did. They spent money with me..." because most companies are like, "Hey, thanks. We'll be emailing you a confirmation," and that's pretty much the thank you page. Do you recommend adding more to that, or is it just kind of just get the products in front of them, get them in and out type thing? Jon: Well, we've actually run some tests, where brands who already participate in like 1% For Good or some of these other donation or charity causes, at that point, and reemphasizing that on the thank you page. Like, "Thank you for your purchase. Did you know part of your purchase is going to these great causes?" Ryan: Oh. Jon: Right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: So, what's happening there is you're actually just making somebody feel even better. You're reassuring them about their purchase. I think that's really important there, is the reassurance. I don't know about you, but sometime... like, I bought a new car six months ago now, maybe. There's nothing like the joy of driving the new car home. But then you're sitting at home and you're like, "I'm a little guilty. I feel guilty. I bought a new car today." You know what I mean? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: It's that thing where it's like, "I just dropped a lot of money on this." Yeah, it's awesome, but at the same time, I could have got a used car that had a hundred thousand miles on it and would have got me from A to B. It's the same thing when you buy online. You need to reassure people that... they probably didn't need what they bought from you. Maybe they had some need around it. But if you did a great job with your marketing sales and every everything else but your customer experience, you helped them see the benefit of a product that maybe had a little more cost to it than what they were planning to spend, but there's some value there for them. Sometimes that's just the emotional value. But, at the same time, reassurance is really key on that thank you page. Ryan: Got it. Okay, so we've got the thank you page dialed, we've got some upsells potential there, we've told them that they're amazing and they bought from an awesome company. Now, how do I go about encouraging future business from this customer of mine? Jon: Well, I think the first thing that really needs to be paid attention here is that what happens in email post-purchase. Now, most people don't think about this when they're optimizing a site. They usually just leave it to whatever the defaults are. So, if they're using Shopify, it will automatically send out some emails, depending on what email provider, using like a Klaviyo or something like that. It will have some of these built-ins with some best practices. But this is a ripe opportunity for optimization that most people are not thinking about. Jon: I always say there's five emails that should be sent out after a purchase. It's a huge opportunity if you're missing any of these five. Now, the easiest one, and the first, is always confirmation email. The order went through, all is well, it's received, we'll be shipping it on this date or soon. Just confirming everything's gone well, it's gone through. Just send them an email, and that email should go out immediately. There's no reason to hold on to it, even if you don't have a shipping date yet. It doesn't need to have tracking information in this email. It's just, "Hey, you know what, we have your money, your order, here's your receipt," right? Ryan: Okay. Jon: That's a good opportunity, at that point... I've seen this done very well, and I don't know what the tool is, but I should definitely look into that. I've seen this done so well, where they even do the upsell in that email. This happened to me last week. I bought some lights for my yard, solar lights, and to light up what's been real... we live in Portland. It's super dark here this time of year for long hours of the day. So, I'm driving home and it's dark in my driveway. Well, what I did, I went and I got some solar lights. Yeah, probably not the best for how dark it is here, but we'll move on from that. Jon: In the cart, it said, "Hey, you bought a certain number of these, did you want to add more?" That was a great in-cart experience and I decided not to do it. But then, I got the email right away. In that email, it said, "Hey, if you change your mind, you have four hours from when this email is sent to add a few more before we're going to start packing up your order, and you'll have to just place another order." And it said, "Click here to add four more, eight more or twelve more." It even had a discount on them. I thought that was really interesting. I wanted to see it, what would happen, just from a research standpoint, so I added four more to my order. It was great. It just took me right back to a page on the site that said, "Thanks, Jon. Here's your order number. We added four more to it. Your new total is X." Ryan: And you got a discount on it, on adding the four more. Jon: Well, it was because they didn't add any more for shipping those extra four, right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: So, it wasn't a percentage off. It was saying, "Hey, we'll add these, but we won't charge you more to ship them." Ryan: Got it. Jon: Now, you could do a whole bunch of different items around discounting. We should definitely talk about discounting today, a little bit there. But I think the point here was, is that they had a captive audience. I'm going to look at my receipt email. Most people do. Ryan: Yep. Jon: It should be a highly opened email. So, it's a great captive audience and a great opportunity to do an upsell that nobody really thinks about. Ryan: No, yeah, and I can easily see how... you didn't take the complimentary products, but maybe you suggest something maybe even more different in the email, but offer a discount. Like, "Hey, add this in and we'll give you 10% off, and just include it in the order and it'll go out at the same time," or something. Jon: Right. And you think about it, it's a free cost of sale at that point for the retailers. So, there's really no additional cost in sending that email. You're already going to send the receipt. Email is super cheap as is anyways. But you don't have to advertise to them. You're not remarketing. You're not doing any of that that could add the extra cost. Jon: Okay. So, we have confirmation email. The second email is shipping confirmation. Once the order has shipped, let the consumer know immediately. "Your order has shipped. It's on its way. Here's the tracking number, and it should be there within this date range or on this specific day." Now, even if the tracking number is not available in UPS or FedEx or whatever at this point, because those can take 12 hours or 24 hours to show up in there, you can always just say, "Hey, this link won't show any results for X amount of time." But you should give them that right away because they're going to reference that, perhaps, throughout the order process or while they're waiting for the order. But I think it's a great opportunity just to confirm things have been shipped, all is still well, it's going to be there. Jon: It's a great opportunity, at that point, to also offer any resources. So, you can say, "Hey, you bought these solar lights. Let me include a video..." and this is exactly what they did for me. They included a video that showed me how to put them together, in that shipping confirmation. Ryan: Hmm. Jon: So now, I had something to kind of tease me a little bit until the products arrived. I thought it was super interesting because, not only was I just getting that shipping information, which normally I would just look at, but archive and save in case it didn't arrive, but I actually went through and reengaged with the brand by watching an installation video, which is a great opportunity. Now, when I get the product, immediately I can open the box and start using it. Right? Ryan: Oh, yeah. Jon: That's a much better experience. So, we've got confirmation email, shipping confirmation email, and the third email I always recommend is a customer service email. What do I mean by that? Well, this is just a check-in email. This should be a couple of days after the product was supposed to arrive. What should happen here is it should say something like, "Did you receive the product? Was everything okay? If not, just reply to this email and let us know." Pretty simple, right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: It's a just let them know you're there, that they have a channel if there's an issue. And what you're going to do here, is you're going to prevent a negative online review. Because if they have a problem, they're not going to go online and vent. They're going to say, "Oh, you know what, I got that email from them. I'll reply to that email and try to figure this out." And then, you have an opportunity to turn a bad situation into a good one very quickly. You're preemptively handling that situation by just letting them know you're there. And if there's no problems at all, it's still awesome just to know that that brand is available for you and that they're there. Jon: I often recommend, have this email either go out the day the product should arrive, and you can say something like, "Your product should be arriving today. Let us know if you have any problems," and things of that sort. It's also another opportunity to send some more resources. If you want to link to more stuff up on your site, or there's... we worked with a company that sells tents. They did a really good job with this. It's like how to set up your tent, right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: Because a lot of people struggle with that. They've gotten a lot easier over the years, but it's still something that required a little bit of knowledge. So, we've got confirmation emails, shipping confirmation, customer service, and then the fourth email I always recommend is please leave a review. This is a review request. Now, this should definitely go out a couple of days, maybe even a week, after they've gotten the product. The idea here is just make it so simple for them. There's a couple of tools that make this super easy. Shopper Approved. It does this extremely well. It's a reviews platform, where they just send out an email that asks for the review, and then it has five stars in the review, and it says, "Click the star that you want to rate." Ryan: Yeah, I've actually done that before and didn't even know I was giving a review. Jon: Right. It's one click. Ryan: It's phenomenally simple. Me, as an online marketer, I'm in it all day every day. Then I got a review email from one of the companies I bought from, and it was Shopper Approved. Blew me away. Like, "Wow. I actually just accidentally gave a five star review." I was going to give it anyway, but it was like, "Wow, that was ridiculously simple." Jon: Yeah, and that's exactly what it's about here, is just make it quick, make it easy, but ask for the review. Most people, at this point, don't ask for a review. They're asking for a review on their website, which I can promise you, nobody is going back to a website, from finding that product detail page for the product they purchased, and giving it a review. It's a huge red flag and perhaps we should do another episode, Ryan, on product reviews, because it's a huge red flag for consumer trust. Jon: If you see, on a product detail page, that you can leave a review, that tells me that there are so many unverified reviews on there. I don't trust what's being said anymore because the manufacturer or retailer could just be sending their entire family to that page. I want to know that they're actually verified reviews from people that have purchased and that's the only reviews that are in that mix. The best way to do that is just ask for it via email after the purchase. It's going to be a verified review. That also, and you probably know more about this though, Ryan, but that also allows you, if they're all verified, to have the star ratings show up on your product detail page listings in Google search results. Ryan: Yeah, exactly. You need to have a review aggregator that's approved by Google that's looked at their system and said, "Yes, you're actually getting legitimate reviews." I know there's some plugins on a lot of eCom platforms that allow people to just leave reviews on the site, like you said, and it doesn't build trust. Those can't be sent to Google. So, if your website is, "Hey, I got a place to get reviews. I've got 500 wonderful reviews on my website. How come Google is not allowing me to send them?" It's because you haven't used one of the 30, I believe, companies that are approved to send those reviews to ours, and Google trusts that they're legitimate. Jon: Now, you're not gaming the system, so that's helpful. Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: So, five emails. Confirmation email after purchase, shipping confirmation, customer service, leave a review, and then the fifth is just add them to your general email marketing sends. So, whatever that next email marketing send is, just add them. Now, here's the thing. If you're going to send an email every day, or even every week, the cadence can't be the same as somebody who clearly signed up for your marketing emails on your site. Now, I'm suggesting sending them marketing emails, but maybe it's once a month. It's just some way to stay in front of them, and these emails should be more helpful. They shouldn't be, "Here's the big promotion we're running right now." It should be something like, "Hey, Valentine's Day is coming up. Have you thought about ordering by X date to ensure that you'll have it in time?" Ryan: And so on this, real quick though, you would, in theory, keep them out of your marketing emails until they get to this point. You don't want to automatically, you purchased, you're in my marketing email, and you're going to get a marketing email in the middle of this cadence of emails. Like, you don't want, "Oh, shipping confirmation." "Oh..." two hours later you got the marketing email. Jon: That's exactly right. I think that's extremely important that even if they signed up... okay, this isn't a tactic I recommend. You know I rail on this all the time. But even if you had a pop-up, and you offered a discount to sign up for the marketing emails on your site before they made a purchase, you need to hold those emails a reasonable amount of time, maybe a day or two, to see if they made a purchase right away. There's so many of these tools, like Klaviyo, that make that pretty easy to do, where you can just add an exception real quick to hold them until the next email blast or something. But I would wait for them to at least complete that purchase. If they complete the purchase, then don't send a marketing email until they've gotten the other four emails. Ryan: All right, so we've got an email cadence. We've got in-cart right after the purchase. Some of the things you can do on the thank you page. We touched on this a little bit, in the process of going through there, but in addition to CartHook and maybe the email platform you're using, are there any other CRO tools people can be utilizing or looking at when they're trying to improve post-purchase conversion rates? Jon: Well, I think that it's not as data-focused on tracking every click and movement at that point. So, it's less about the toolsets here. It's more about that customer experience. Email is going to be your biggest toolset here. Yes, there's a lot of stuff you can do to run tests and see how much people are engaging with that thank you page, and there's tools like CartHook and several competitors to them, but I don't think that being as data heavy at this part of the process is going to be very beneficial. Ryan: Got it. And a lot of that is going to be measured by lifetime value of your customers. Are they increasing or not? So, if your lifetime value was $500 and then you implemented a bunch of these things Jon's talked about, did it move to $700 or $800 over a course of the time period that you're outlining? Jon: Right. And there's really three kind of goals that you should have from doing this, and three metrics that you should be tracking by optimizing post-purchase. The first is that customer lifetime value, of course. We want to see that go up over time. What influences that? A return purchase. Did you give them such a good customer experience that they came back and purchased again? Another thing is number of reviews. That's a great one because people are only going to leave a review if they're satisfied or if they're deeply unsatisfied, right? Ryan: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jon: That kind of mushy middle there, nobody really leaves a review, typically. That's why you very rarely will see like a three star review. You're going to see a five or a one, or a four, sometimes people don't like to give five unless... they reserve that for the one time a year. Maybe it's between four and one, but you see very few in between, typically. Then the third metric, besides those, that you should be thinking about is just your conversion. Your conversion rate overall should go up because of those repeat customers, in the sense that if you get more people to come back and purchase again, you should see your conversion rates go up because it's going to be an easier purchase, you're going to have more sales. So, it kind of feeds itself in this cycle. Ryan: Got it. So it's post-purchase conversion rates not something I've normally thought about, or even associate with typical CRO and what you're doing with customer testing and heat mapping and all these wonderful things you do onsite. Now, is generally post-purchase CRO a part of an overall CRO strategy or do you kind of separate them into like, get the purchase CRO and then post-purchase CRO? Jon: That's a great question. Now, my initial thought on that is that it is something that is built into what we do at The Good, and it should be part of a full conversion optimization. But it is a graduate level step. What I mean by that is if you haven't gotten into college and completed those courses of just getting the conversion, then there's no reason to focus on post-purchase yet. So, you really want to have a good customer experience up to that point, and then you can start working on post-purchase optimization. But it is an overall part of the CRO picture, and it really should be. Ryan: Now, one easy way to increase your conversion rate is to throw a bunch of discounts out, obviously. If people save money, of course they're going to buy more, generally. But how do you, or do you, recommend any discounting post-purchase? I kind of mentioned like, "Oh maybe I would throw a 10% discount out for complimentary products in an email." But that may be a bad idea. I don't know. Jon: Well, I'm not a proponent of doing discounts on a site at all. I really believe discounting is not optimization. I call it margin drain, because that's really what it is. Now, can you get more sales through discounting? People love a discount. It does work, but I'm not a proponent of it. I don't think you should be testing discounts, testing promotions in that way. There's a lot of other ways to be doing promotions that aren't just a straight up discount. And the reason is, and I say this all the time, once you bring a new-to-file customer in through a discount, your brand is forever a discount brand in the eyes of that consumer. And it's just not going to change. That means, every time you do a purchase in the future, you're going to have to offer a discount. It's just what's going to be expected. They're never going to want to pay retail price because that's not what the expectation is. Jon: But there are ways around this that are still intriguing offers that aren't discounts. We actually have an article up on our site. We'll have our producer put it in the show notes. But there's an article that we have up on The Good that's something like 90 or 100 different types of offers that you can do that aren't discounts. Ryan: Oh wow. Jon: There's just an unlimited number up there, it seems like. Now, things like buy one, get one, bundling. I mentioned, just earlier, how the company got me by saying, "Hey, we'll add four more to your order without charging you more for shipping." So, you can do things like shipping promotions. Free shipping should be something that you're considering. If not, look at a better fulfillment partner, perhaps, but there's a lot of options out there. That you're allowing people to upgrade their shipping speed. Ryan: Yeah so, one final point, I think, in the post-purchase thing. Something you and I do a lot of between our organizations is referrals. I'm always referring business over to Jon and Jon's very good at referring business to us. But in the eCommerce space, very rarely do I get asked to refer somebody else. I just bought this product. I'm really excited about it. I mean, more than likely, I'm going to be willing to refer, but very rarely do I get asked about it. And a lot of times it's... there may be a loyalty program system out there that does some of this, but what do you suggest companies do to increase some of that potential for referral? Jon: Just ask. I think, as you mentioned, so few do, and there's... most eCommerce managers are spending all this effort and money in affiliate programs, where they're getting people to recommend their product in exchange for an affiliate fee. But they ignore the power that people who actually buy can have. And I think that's a mistake. They really should be thinking a lot about how can we just get somebody who purchased, and is happy with that purchase, to be a referral source? One of the things you can do is, in that email chain that I mentioned of those five emails, instead of asking for a review, you could ask for a referral at that point, right? Ryan: Yeah. Jon: You could mix it up and do a 25% you're asking for referrals, 75% you're asking for a review, however that mix is that you'd like. There's a lot of options there. But the reality is, is all you have to do is ask, and it should cost you nothing at that point. You could offer them a gift in exchange for making a referral, something of that sort, or have a loyalty program that you're doing. There's some great tools out there. I'm a huge fan of one called Smile, smile.io. Smile.io, however you want to pronounce it. But there's a handful of these out there that do a really good job with the loyalty programs. And one of those is asking for referrals and doing it at the right step in the process. Just so few people do it that it blows my mind. Ryan: Is there a right or a wrong way to ask for that referral? Is there a way that it can make people mad, or there's a way that you've seen that's been very successful in that email chain of asking for one? Jon: The first thing I would do is offer them something of value to share. So, instead of the overt, "Just click here to publish to your Facebook a, "I just bought this product, you should too," or something that is super cheesy and very pushy. That's the mistake I see, typically. And most people aren't going to do that. But if you make it something that is really useful, like, "Hey, I just bought this tent from this company, and here's a video on how to set up a tent, or a trick on how to set up a tent, perhaps, that would make your life easier if you camp too." So you say, "Okay, well, share that out," perhaps with this referral code, something of that sort. And you can offer people a discount. Jon: Now, a lot of times... I do this a lot. If I really like something and I'm recommending it to somebody, I'll say, "You know what, I know I get a discount on that. Why don't I just make the introduction and then I know you'll get a discount." So it's, "Offer 10% off to your friends," or whatever that might be. Or, "Use this code and your friends get free shipping," or, "They get a free gift if you refer them." It doesn't, again, have to be a percentage off. But I think there's a lot of options there and a lot of offers that could be mixed in. It just requires a little bit of thought and creativity instead of doing the lazy thing that every eCom site's doing, and either not asking or just saying, "Hey, use this code and give it to your friends for a percentage off." Ryan: Got it. So, just kind of make it a little more fun or exciting, or not just the basic "give me a code." Jon: Right, exactly. Ryan: Well, that's awesome. Okay. So, we've got a lot of potential for increasing conversion rates from thank you pages to emails to referrals to countless different things. Thank you, Jon, for downloading all of that education on us. I think there's just a ton in there that I'm actually going to start implementing on some of my brands. Anything else you want to leave us with? Jon: No, I think that the first thing to think about is getting that conversion. After that, there's so much more opportunity to go that most people don't pay attention to. I think it's really important that they take that extra step. I appreciate you bringing this topic to the table and us discussing it today. Hopefully it's a value for folks. Ryan: Oh yeah, I'm sure it is. Thank you, Jon.

Hey everyone and welcome back to The Mouse Club Podcast! This week I'm talking about my favorite binge worthy shows, movies, and YouTube channels that I definitely recommend checking out while we're all stuck at home! Here are some links to some of the channels that I recommend: Christy's Kitchen Throwback: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1JLTAiy0P7wBcWlPPndU6g Emma and Jon You're Welcome!: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVxzWiuNNHsWOLhRf8SKNFw The Crosbys: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfrREf-q6PbTxNgsB5XAp6A The Bucket Family: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuAHfJyWROB4XRReS43EWUw My Channel Marissa Potts: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQED9xEETLe_FCkW3ZosxZA Check us out on Instagram: instagram.com/themouseclubpodcast --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Are your marketing goals lining up with the goals you've set to grow your business overall? Many business owners or executive teams set goals for their online marketing to drive profit to the company. Unfortunately, the current digital marketing landscape makes it difficult to reach digital marketing goals that have a focus on profit: * Generally speaking, digital marketing has increased in competition and the real estate available for paid ads has shrunk (mainly on Google which controls a vast majority of search volume). * This has forced companies to further emphasize customer lifetime value activities (such as email and loyalty programs) to drive business profit. * Instead of driving profit from the first order on paid search, companies now may only break-even on that initial order (some companies even lose money on the first order-on purpose). The solution is to focus less on marketing ROI and focus more on the overall business objectives, like increasing market share: * Revisit the goal every two months to see how email and loyalty channels are impacted by the increase of new customers. * In theory, both of those channels will be driving much higher volumes of sales at extremely profitable levels. Even if profit doesn’t match up exactly, the sales volume will be making a noticeable dent in competitors. * Customers that buy from your website through non-brand search and shopping are customers that were likely going to purchase from a competitor if you didn’t get them. * They didn’t have any brand or site loyalty when making the search. * Over time, investing in non-brand search/shopping more aggressively will also have what we call, The Halo Effect. * Don’t let any changed goal continue for more than two months into the new year without analyzing the data to make sure that it is driving the intended outcome. * Having goals that don’t drive the business in the right direction aren’t necessarily bad, but can have unintended consequences when left unreviewed. LINKS "I Have Bad Goals, You Have Bad Goals, We ALL Have Bad Goals" by Ryan Garrow (https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/i-have-bad-goals-you-we-all-part-1-ryan-garrow/) TRANSCRIPT JON MACDONALD: Ryan, I know you've spent a lot of time communicating with business owners and marketing teams about their goals with online marketing. To put these goals in perspective, we have to discuss overall business goals, and that's to me where things get really interesting, because their current marketing goals are not driving the online business towards an overall business goal. The business or individual usually has set a bad goal and the best time to review those I would think is at the beginning of a new budget year, which is typically the start of a calendar year. Ryan, today let's talk about setting more appropriate goals to online marketing and align that with business objectives. How does that sound? RYAN GARROW: Sounds awesome. It's one of my favorite topics actually. I get into this all year actually. I'll be talking to business owners as they're thinking about becoming a client or working with us. Or even if I'm just out having a beer after a conference, I always love talking about goals. It's been a big part of my life, and how I operate so I'm constantly setting goals, revisiting them, and business strategy and goal setting go so hand in hand that it just becomes a topic I naturally get to probably in almost every conversation with business owners or marketing teams. So often, I find that there are well intentioned people throughout an organization that set what seems to be an appropriate goal for their team, and then they get down the road 6 months to 12 months, and maybe they hit their goal, but it drove the business in a completely different direction then it actually been anticipated. Without all the stops in place, you really revisit that goal and decide, "Is this actually working and are we actually accomplishing what we're trying to accomplish?" It can be very fascinating conversation in that process. I'm excited about this topic for sure. JON: I recognize and maybe our listeners don't know, but you run several online businesses yourself, right? RYAN: Yes, my wife and I have probably more than our fair share [laughs] that we run. JON: I would think one is a fair share so the fact that you have more than that is awesome. That speaks to the fact that you put a lot of what you preach into practice, right? RYAN: Yes, there's actually not a scenario in which I will advise a business owner or marketing team to do something that I'm probably not already doing or I haven't learned from and therefore advise them correctly based on my own misgivings or wasted money. JON: I imagine in your day, you've probably set a bad goal or two. RYAN: The list is ongoing and my wife likes to remind me of those [laughs]. One funny one recently, I was so mad at myself for this one. We were launching a brand and we decided to launch it on Amazon. Partially for the education, but also because I had been built up as a digital marketer to fear Amazon, and that just made me mad that I was scared of Amazon. That's why I go, "Forget it. We're going to launch a brand on Amazon and see what happens. We have to understand the landscape." Our team was deciding to start up an Amazon ads department. I said, "All right, we'll launch on Amazon, you can have my money. I'll set a wonderfully appropriate goal to make sure we hit our objectives." Initially is like, "All right, I'm going to share the upside with this team and we're going to have a profit share." They know my margins because they need to know that to run the digital marketing through Amazon and help create the pages and all that. We had this wonderful goal that every dollar of profit we got from ads, they were going to get, I think it's something around 20% of that dollar, whatever that looked like. I can't remember exactly the goal. My goal as a business owner in launching this business was to dominate the competition. I was not in the game for profit. I want to spend down to break even to get customers, I want to understand the Amazon ecosystem, but my goal really in this is it's an organic fertilizer. I want to take down Monsanto. A pretty lofty goal considering how many billions of dollars they have. JON: Yes, no kidding. RYAN: Profit was secondary to me, it was like, let's get the product in the hands of people. I want to know their feedback as well as saying, "Hey, the more people that get it, the better my opportunities for repeat business, et cetera, et cetera." We get three months down the road, and I'm just frustrated with growth, like, hey, we went up aggressively. When we started the marketing it was exciting. My partners and I were looking at numbers daily. It was actually when the Apple Watch which we all had had the Amazon ping every time you got a sale, which was great. We'd have a glass of wine at the end of the day and our watch would go off and we're like, "Yes, we just got a sale. This is awesome." We were excited, but it flat-line so quick, and three months in I was talking to the team and I was like, there is way more search volume here on Amazon than what we're capturing. I could see our search rank and where we are ranking the competitors and their sales volume based on reviews and all these other metrics we had to look at. We were not moving the needle forward according to my overall business goal of becoming one of the largest houseplant fertilizers in the marketplace. The teams like, "Oh, the numbers are great. Look at we spent $5,000, regenerated 10 $12,000 of profit. You cut us a cheque on the side for $1,000. Isn't this great?" That is not my goal. Profits, not bad. The partners weren't upset about the profit, but the flat-line growth had to do with the fact that our marketing team that was pushing the levers, and pulling levers on the Amazon ads weren't actually able to accomplish my overall goal of market share and getting sales and new users because they were being conservative to protect that margin, which was their goal. I had to go back to the team and like, "Okay, I like the fact that we're able to pay you because you generate a profit. You nailed the goal. Awesome job. High fives all around, but as a business owner, I have to now change the goal because I don't really care about profit. I care about sales." We adjusted the goal to get on to percent of overall revenue, as long as we're not losing money. I said, "If there's a dollar in profit, I'm still paying you and I'll technically lose money as a brand, but that's the goal I want is aggressive sales growth, regardless of dollar profit from marketing, because that initial orders when I'm getting on Amazon, and we had some brand campaigns set up so we can avoid brand non brand stuff. It turns out, we started growing again, once we adjusted that goal and better aligned with my overall business vision, but that was frustrating for me, but it's also an example of how easy it is to get going on the wrong goal just because good intentions are not. I set a goal that just wasn't appropriate. JON: I think that aligns with the current digital marketing landscape, which has had a major shift over the last few years. Would you agree with that? RYAN: For sure. It's constantly changing. I think one of the reasons I still have a job in the digital marketing spaces is because it's constantly changing and the landscape is constantly in flux. Google, where the largest percentage of spend many times is for a company. In the last couple of years, we've gone from 11 text ads down to 7, and there's more companies competing. You can see you compressed the amount of available ad space, and then increased number of advertisers, logic dictates what's going to happen when that does, there's just an increase in cost per click and a real shift. Maybe five, six years ago, a lot of our e commerce clients would have said, "Set a goal around profit, and I need to get profit from ads because it's available." Now profit from that first ad isn't necessarily there for every company. In fact, many industries, it's you're losing money, no matter what happens on Google ads, or Microsoft ads, but you're moving the focus from that initial sale and what are you getting from that sale to, What's the lifetime value am I getting from that? And so it's extending out that return. We started doing this actually funny enough, probably about four or five years ago, with a company called Harry and David, where they did the math and actually understood how much money they should be losing on that first order to maximize their long term lifetime customer value, and how many companies they could get and how much market share could they capture. It was a real fascinating study, but we're finding that to be more than norm now than shooting for a 10X return on ads spend when your margin is 50%. JON: Yes, so they're basically looking to break even on that initial order. RYAN: A lot of companies should whether or not they are or not. My advice to a lot of companies is that first what we would considering a non brand acquisition, so somebody searching for your product or service and not your brand. That ordered in a perfect world right now should probably not have profit, it should be right about break-even and then having some lifetime value, being able to email them and bring them back into the brand through the same product again, another service, another product, having that future business coming in with your profit actually comes from. JON: Yes, because the cost of that second sale is so much cheaper. RYAN: Yes, and the more customers you can acquire on a non brand search, the less customers your competitors have, because that person is searching for product A unattached to a brand at this point. They're going to buy from somebody, it might as well be you because now you have that customer data, and that ends up becoming one of the most important things to a brand, regardless of whether you're a retailer or a brand. It's that customer data and knowing something about them that maybe your competitor doesn't know. JON: Is it safe to say that the number of levers that have impacted digital marketing return has just magnified tremendously over the past few years and maybe that's causing confusion with the goals? RYAN: I think so. I think you also have a lot of marketing teams and business owners that have goals that they have them and they don't necessarily know why. They've had them for years and it comes across to companies big and small that either their goal is, "We just take last year's numbers and add 10, 15% whatever we think the market's going to do and that's our goal." Or, "Hey, we have this profit goal from paid search and we look at it as a profit center and we always have, therefore why would we change that?" What I'm seeing from a broad stroke high level is most of those companies looking at profit goals from their marketing are shrinking as much for what their spend could be or what they actual new customers coming through that channel could be or it's causing them to focus more on just brand search in their paid channels, which has meaning they're capturing the same customers over and over and over again and are not actually growing their database. JON: Step one is to understand and acknowledge that we've had bad goals, right? Step two is to fix those goals and make sure that we've got marketing in alignment. I think we can all agree, at least in some part, we've all had bad goals. You had a great example of a bad goal earlier on and now that we've all agreed on that, let's talk about how we can fix those. Can you walk us through maybe an example conversation you've had with clients who have had bad goals and how you start to correct those? RYAN: One actually comes to mind. It's in the auto parts space. Generally speaking the margins are not extremely high. This particular brand though manufacturers and goes direct to consumer and so their margins are higher than most. In fact their margins I think are just below 50% but they're fairly large organization online. I think they are doing north of 50 million or so per year through their website. We took it over from another agency and magnified their sales phenomenally. I think they spent 1% last year over year, one of the months we looked at, before I was talking goals with them, spent 1% less and had 50% more revenue and their overall profit because they track profit outside of that for their marketing team, was that 57% on marketing even including agency fees because I think that was about a wash agency-to-agency. High level numbers looks phenomenal. They are really printing a lot of money on their paid search and they were beside themselves excited. The marketing team was in a great spot. They were super happy and one of our better references in the space. As we got into the numbers and started talking about overall business goals and what they could or should be doing, it became apparent that their marketing team had an incentive to create profit from paid search ads, which is one of the reasons they were so excited to be working with us at Logical Position because profit from paid search ads was up 57% and obviously their incentive was looking fairly solid. Diving into the numbers. They are a $50 million auto parts company that's part of a huge market. 50 million is one of the probably top five players in their specific segment, but it could be massive. They could probably be doing 100, 150 million a year online rather quickly, but they're being held back by some of their goals internally. Analyzing analytics and Google ads together uncovered some things where they only had about 20% of the impression share in shopping on some of their non-brand queries. Not that impression shares and end all be all because it can be manipulated within shopping to show almost whatever you want. This was fairly clean data that we knew that the market was fairly big for what they were doing and so despite their numbers being great, I had to talk to the CFO and talk to them about overall business goals and their goal is really become a big player and they do want to hit that 100, 150 million revenue number online and I had to talk to them about, "Okay, well, your marketing team is getting a 14X, spend a dollar, get $14 in revenue on non-brand terms," which is phenomenal in the auto space, especially in a place as competitive as theirs. There was a lot of room to run even with profit in the space and I put some numbers in front of them. I said, "Right now you're using a 15X as a barometer of success in non-brand search. What if you were able to say lower that goal to a 4X. You spend a dollar to get $4 in revenue, still technically profitable. What would that do to your spend to your overall sales to your new customers? Let's just play this out and see what happens?" It basically said, "If you tripled your budget on non-brand terms and we're talking about a six- figure budget so it's not inconsequential on a monthly basis, you are still able to get the same amount of end profit to the organization as you had before, but you were able to acquire a vast amount of new users. If you're manufacturing your fulfillment, all these things can keep pace with that. You should be pushing for a much lower return on ad spend on your non brand goals to take that market share," because they were covering such a small-- It was almost like the tip of the iceberg and they were being successful. There's no scenario in which they weren't happy, but the magnitude that they could move below that waterline and capture a massive amount of market share from competitors was for sure there and that's not the case with every company we look at or talk to. Some of them have really maximized their acquisition ability on non-brand terms, but most companies out there listening to this podcast, there for sure is the ability to push more aggressively. John: Let's talk about the different levers then that are involved in that equation. I heard you say that they got a few of those wrong and had to go back and correct them or that it's limiting them. Can you tell us about a handful of these levers that everyone should be considering when they're setting goals? RYAN: First you have to separate out brand and non-brand. People searching for your brand and your brand plus product or brand plus service, those are your earned customers. You've already done the work either in digital marketing or branding offline or social media. Those people are actually searching for you. That group of people searching, you're not going to be able to necessarily set a goal that you can stick to around that because it's going to depend on what are your competitors doing? What does the landscape look like on Google based on your brand? If you're Kleenex, your brand searches a little nebulous space on are they looking for you or are they looking for just your product because you've been branded so well for that particular product separating that out. You have to have very clean data in your account to say, that's one piece of the account that's just going to-- we want to maximize our coverage and that's really your goal there. Acquisition goals in the page search realm or digital marketing realm are around new customers to your brand. We call them new to file customers. They're new to file a new in your CRM, new in your email database. That's really where you have a lever to push and pull for your acquisition of new customers. That's where you take into account what are your margins? What’s your lifetime value? Those are numbers the brand has to be able to at least have a good understanding of margins fairly easy to capture that but usually we'll start with just a broad stroke. What's your average margin? If it's going to range between 40 and 50 depending on the product line they're buying, but to meet in the middle right now at least to start with goal setting at 45, great let's figure out your break-even is and then what's your lifetime value? How often do they come back and rebuy or how often should they? And most companies don't know this piece. This is where they're guessing and revisiting goals comes into play because you might not have a successful email campaign currently and you're going to start it right away and you're going to make an estimate that our product has a life span of six months, so we expect to be able to get in front of these people again in six months. Great, let's figure that then. How many customers should we be acquiring to get this test going? Some companies and actually I would say most companies don't start with the goal of losing money to acquire customers. Just break-even and figure out how hard can we push? This makes people really nervous by the way [chuckles]. JON: I can only imagine, especially that CFO, you always have to talk to. RYAN: Oh yes, the CFO and in my world the CFO is my wife [laughs]. I like if I could spend a 100 grand tomorrow on digital marketing and get 100,000 profit, that'd be great. That makes some CFO, like my wife, very nervous to see, oh, the potential to spend $100,000 tomorrow is there. What if we only brought in $80,000 of revenue or profit? That would be concerning to have the family at a deficit of 20 grand in one day. The wonderful thing about digital marketing, specifically, we'll focus on Google right now, for the purposes of this conversation, money comes back into the brand almost as quick as you're putting it out and depending on how Google is billing you, whether it's net 30 or whether it's every $500 and how quickly your merchant processor is bringing your payments into your bank account. Generally speaking, it's a very quick wash on that. Money goes out, money comes back in and because you can see in Google ads and fairly close to real time what sales are coming in, there's very little risk to the cash flow of the business. That's where most CFOs start coming at me within the cash flow like "Oh, we've got a byproduct. We've got to do all these other things." Yes, you have to do that but if money's coming back in as quick, in theory, it's not causing any issues. There can be issues with having the product in stock. If you are a manufacturer, do you have the bandwidth to create that volume? Do you have the ability to fulfill that? There's a lot of other questions that come into that based on what we think the volume could be. As you're going into this, the threshold may not be how much can you spend, but it could be how much can we produce, sell, et cetera, et cetera. Data considerations within the space. JON: Ryan, one thing I've heard you talk a lot about between conversations with the clients that we jointly work with is something called the halo effect, right? Over time if these brands are investing in that non-branded search or shopping more aggressively, they'll have that halo effect. Can you talk to that a little bit? RYAN: Yes. You're going to set a goal and for most of you listening, start with a goal around breaking-even on non-brand. That needs to be on search and shopping but shopping is the fun one on Google. That's where if you control your search terms well enough and this one isn't necessarily easy to control because shopping is not set up with keywords. It does take some manipulation of the campaigns and structure and hierarchy and negative keywords, all of that. Let's assume you have that together pushing aggressively in non-brand shopping. I'm staring at my computer screens now. Let's just say you're selling computer screens down to break-even by marketing aggressively and shopping and pushing for extra units there. Most people that go to Google Shopping, actually two things. They buy something different. What you're pushing and shopping as far as the click, over 50% of the time they're going to buy something entirely different. That's where it does become important to monitor what they're buying because if your margins are different, it can be problematic, but they also convert often through other channels. I personally, when I shop on Google Shopping, when I click it, I buy it. I don't do a tremendous amount of research or I've done it beforehand by the time I'm looking on Google Shopping, I click, I buy, there's not a huge attribution funnel for my personal purchases. It's unique for me when I look in the data and actually see that Google Shopping actually opens more sales than it actually closes. If you're clicking on computer screens on Google Shopping, on average, you're going to come back and buy through a different channel. If you're looking at Google analytics, you can see a city conversions. You're going to see that the halo effect of investing in Google Shopping on non-brand terms, your organic traffic generally will increase. Your email, will generally increase, your direct traffic, your referrals, your social media. All of these channels will be impacted by Google Shopping. It's fascinating to see the impact that Google Shopping can have across channel and it generally doesn't get the credit that it's due. JON: Do you mean the organic and direct traffic and these other brand channels are all going to have noticeable revenue increases as well? RYAN: They should. Again, it's not in a vacuum where it's perfect for every brand across the world, but generally speaking do it for three months and look at the numbers and you should see an increase. Now if you're doing SEO as well, you would expect organic to continue to increase as well, but using the Google analytics assisted conversions, you should be able to see where Google Shopping is having an impact and you can actually get down into conversion paths and all that fun data to tell you what is being impacted the most by your extra investment in Google Shopping. In fact, just had a conversation with the CFO, one of our clients a few days ago and they've been investing in non-brand shopping at a lower return on ad spend than they normally would because they've been seeing this halo effect. They've measured it and said, "Hey, we actually aren't there." It's a very competitive space where there's not a lot of profit, if any to be had in the digital marketing space because of the competition but for them they realized, "Hey, we've got this extra data showing that organic traffic is having an uptick and so is email and direct traffic based on what analytics is telling us about our investment in shopping. Therefore we can go down a little bit below break-even because of that halo effect and allows them to get a little more aggressive because they do have a pretty strong lifetime value where people are coming back into the brand after their first acquisition. JON: I heard you say, Ryan, a little bit about how often you should be looking at this data. How often do you feel people should be reviewing that data and then perhaps even revisiting their goals? RYAN: I'm probably a little more odd in that I'm always looking at data constantly in there and you want to be aware of it. You can also get caught in making knee jerk reactions too quickly. I caution most marketing teams or business owners to go in there daily and look at the data and want to make changes. You have to let the experts in marketing do their thing. I like to revisit goals quarterly. For my businesses, I want to say, "All right, I was shooting for this goal quarterly. Let's look at what happened and do I need to pivot the goal, adjust the goal based on what my business is trying to accomplish?" Like I did with organic fertilizer. I did revisit the goal quarterly and thankfully a day because I was able to adjust and make it a better goal to help me drive the business where I want it to go. In marketing, we always have the best intentions and the best hypothesis is going in and saying, "If we do this, we believe this is going to happen." There's always something that's going to go wrong. Always. You may not completely miss the goal. We may go in with one hypothesis saying, "Oh, there's this much search volume on this term, let's go get it and then there's more or less than, so we have to pivot a goal", and that's really where some experts can be valuable on your marketing team and seeing that because knowing that it's going to be different than what you expect, being able to pivot and adjust on the fly is very important for the minutia of working on account in the paid search realm. The marketing teams in the account constantly look at the data and make adjustments to help the account get to the goal and then higher level, I would be looking at your goals quarterly to see those goals are appropriate and they're heading in the direction that you really wanted them to go. JON: Who do you recommend is involved in that conversation then? Because I've heard you mentioned the CFO a few times and I've heard you mention the marketing teams and of course the marketing experts that they might be working with to help them drive traffic. Who all do you think should be involved in those goal setting conversations on a quarterly basis? RYAN: To a degree I say less is more. I don't like meetings in general. More people generally cause meetings to go longer. I like to keep it small. Depending on the size of your organization, you may not have a large marketing team, you may not have a CFO. Its business owner and marketing team. If there is a CFO in the organization, I highly recommend they're involved in the goal because they're going to have a general overview of what's going on in the organization and maybe the sales volume is not sustainable based on inventory levels or manufacturing capabilities or the ability to ship and distribute. The CFO should have some insight on that. I for sure think a CFO should be involved also from just a cash perspective. You need somebody that understands the digital marketing deep enough to be able to talk strategically, but also not the person actually pushing all the buttons necessarily and then the person leading marketing overall should probably be involved. JON: Just like all goals, there's value in discussing those goals with experts though, right? Would you suggest that they have a third party reviewed these goals as well? RYAN: I would probably bring a third party in, maybe not necessarily quarterly, but at least annually to look at your goals. Maybe biannually, somebody that you trust just to have an unobstructed view of what you could or should be doing. Audit of Google's a place where you're spending a lot of your money, maybe have an audit at least once a year. If you're working with Logical Position, I don't dissuade somebody from having an audit done by somebody just to see-- to help keep them accountable. Accountability is not a bad thing. You want to make sure that you as a business owner or head of marketing are really getting what you're paying for or that your goals are appropriate and driving the business in the direction that you need it to be going. JON: You're not missing those potential pitfalls of that goal, right? RYAN: Yes, there are pitfalls of all kinds of goals that if you're expecting lifetime value, but your email program is not generating it, maybe you can't be shooting for break-even on the first order because you need some of that profit to cover a retail store that maybe isn't as profitable as it should be. There's a lot of variables to every business on the planet that one size doesn't fit all as far as a digital marketing goal, but you can use guidelines, regard rails in place to help formulate the most appropriate goal. JON: Ryan, this has been an amazing topic. I know I can't wait to start refining some of my own goals here at The Good. Anything else you wanted to add to this conversation? RYAN: I think just the most important thing is just make sure you're having fun. I see too many business owners and marketing teams getting into the minutia of goal setting or digital marketing and that just becomes not fun and that's really why a lot of people are in business in the first place. Yes, it's a job. It pays the bills, but if diving into the details is not fun, find a way to make it more enjoyable. Enjoy the process of setting goals, analyzing them and really find ways to win. It should be fun talking to your goals. It should be fun talking to business strategy of how is your brand going to win in 2020 and in this new decade? The potential right now for every brand is huge. You've got a new decade to look at, have fun with it, set some goals, be aggressive, conservative goals aren't nearly as fun to accomplish as aggressive, big pioneer sky goals. JON: I would say most people would think that looking at numbers can't be fun, but you know what? If those numbers are going up into the right and they're trending positive and you've set the right goals that are helping you achieve success and revenue and profit, then things get a lot more fun, right? RYAN: They do and I like setting goals to like, "Hey, there's a bottle of champagne in place when we hit this micro-goal on the way to our big goal." JON: I love it. Most people listening probably don't know that Ryan lives out in Sherwood, Oregon which is in the heart of Oregon Pinot, so I'm surprised you used champagne instead of a bottle of fine Pinot Noir but we'll pop it either way and enjoy. [chuckles] All right, Ryan. Well, this has been a wonderful conversation. I can't wait to set my goals as I mentioned, and hopefully everyone else is going to do the same for a successful 2020 and decade. We'll chat soon. RYAN: Yes, and if anybody really out there wants to talk goals, reach out. I mean, it's fun. Jon and I do this constantly for brands all over the planet. For me-- I'm sure for you as well, Jon, it's just it's fun. Reach out because there's conversations-- Even if you're not working with us, I just enjoy the process and talking through and helping companies align their goals. JON: Great. Well, we'll look forward to hearing from everybody. Thanks, Ryan. RYAN: Thanks, Jon.

SEASON 2: EPISODE 6 Performer Jon Wan argues that kids are campy. ABOUT THE GUEST  Slipping in and out of drag skin Kiko Soirée, animagus Jon Wan serves an alluring feast of emotion - sensual, sincere, stupid. Kiko (@kikosoiree) is a queer comedian, host and drag queen, performing at venues like Club Cumming, Joe's Pub, The Bell House, Ars Nova, Caroline's, Union Hall, MoCA, Caveat, and UCB. They've been named by Time Out Magazine as one of the rising LGBT POC comedians to watch. Monthly, Kiko hosts 'A+, The Pan-Asian Drag and Burlesque Revue', in the Lower East Side, and seasonally, produces the original musical advice show, 'Dear Kiko'. Their Spanish is better than their Cantonese which hasn't made their mother proud but tracks for the American Born Chinese narrative. ABOUT THE HOST Neil Goldberg is an artist in NYC who makes work that The New York Times has described as “tender, moving and sad but also deeply funny.” His work is in the permanent collection of MoMA, he’s a Guggenheim Fellow, and teaches at the Yale School of Art. More information at neilgoldberg.com. ABOUT THE TITLE SHE'S A TALKER was the name of Neil’s first video project. “One night in the early 90s I was combing my roommate’s cat and found myself saying the words ‘She’s a talker.’ I wondered how many other other gay men in NYC might be doing the exact same thing at that very moment. With that, I set out on a project in which I videotaped over 80 gay men in their living room all over NYC, combing their cats and saying ‘She’s a talker.’” A similar spirit of NYC-centric curiosity and absurdity animates the podcast. CREDITS This series is made possible with generous support from Stillpoint Fund.  Producer: Devon Guinn  Creative Consultants: Aaron Dalton, Molly Donahue  Mixer: Andrew Litton  Visuals and Sounds: Joshua Graver  Theme Song: Jeff Hiller  Website: Itai Almor Media: Justine Lee Interns: Alara Degirmenci, Jonathan Jalbert, Jesse Kimotho, Rachel Wang Thanks: Jennifer Callahan, Nick Rymer, Sue Simon, Maddy Sinnock TRANSCRIPTION JON WAN: I just took saxophone cause my friend was also gonna play saxophone, and I just played it through middle school. Then I just continued in high school, and then after freshman year I was like, I don't actually like this instrument. And I'm definitely not a jazz person. Cause I was having saxophone lessons with this person who was a very cool cat. And I was like, I am not understanding fundamentally why I'm here. This isn't clicking with me.  NEIL GOLDBERG: I'm going to really make a controversial generalization here. I don't think jazz is gay.  JON: Oh, no, I don't think so either. You have to be like kind of loose and like -  NEIL: Exactly, a type of casualness. JON: Yeah, and like comfortable with your body and expression, and I was not - like I was learning classical piano from an oppressive Russian teacher, growing up as a Chinese American, closeted, in a primarily white town. I did not know how to express myself in a healthy way.  NEIL: Right. JON: Right. NEIL: Hello. I'm Neil Goldberg, and this is SHE'S A TALKER. I'm a visual artist, and I have a collection of thousands of index cards on which I've been jotting down thoughts and observations for about two decades. In SHE'S A TALKER, I explore the cards through conversations with guests and responses from listeners. These days, the cards often start as voice memos I record throughout the day. Here are some recent ones: When a parent says to a kid, "Look at me," I'm suspicious and think the parent is probably a narcissist. Thick Sharpies are to thin Sharpies as water bugs are to roaches. Art project: drawing all the missing arms in selfies. Today, my guest is Jon Wan. Jon, who often appears on stage as their drag persona, Kiko Soiree, describes themself as a Swiss Army knife performer whose work weaves together musical comedy, storytelling, standup, and beyond. Jon's performed at Club Cumming, Joe's Pub, the Bell House, Ars Nova, Caroline's Mocha, and has been named by Timeout Magazine as one of the rising LGBT people of color comedians to watch out for. We spoke in February at a recording studio at The New School near Union Square in New York City. I'm so happy to have with me Jon Wan.  JON: Hello.  NEIL: Hi Jon. Thank you for being on SHE'S A TALKER.  JON: I'm enchanted to be here. Simply.  NEIL: Simply. What are the alternatives, in terms of enchantment, besides simple enchantment? JON: Oh, very complex. Yeah. Like arcane magic, you know? Not for pedestrian folk.  NEIL: Yes. Complex enchantment. What is your elevator pitch for what you do? JON: I am a drag queen, performer, comedian bopping around New York City. You might know me as my drag persona, Ms. Kiko Soiree, performing and doing shows here in this beautiful garbage city and really always aspiring to one day live within walking distance of a Trader Joe's. NEIL: I see it for you. I really see it for you. You know, a Trader Joe's just opened opposite where Jeff and I live.  JON: No, which one?  NEIL: Uh, it's on Grand Street. Grand and Clinton.  JON: Oh, wow.  NEIL: It's the biggest Trader Joe's on the Eastern Seaboard, I'm told.  JON: That's crazy. So you live near not only a Trader Joe's, but a historic one. NEIL: Yes, exactly. Uh, what does your mom, when she's talking to her friends, what does she say you do?  JON: Oh, (In his mother's accent) oh, Jon um, oh, Jon lives in New York City. (back to normal voice) And then she kinda just like shoos the conversation. I think, she knows I'm a drag queen. I don't think she publicly has the language to talk about it the way she might alternatively say, "My daughter works for a pharmaceutical company." Do you know what I mean?  NEIL: Right. Do you have a sister that works...?  JON: She does. Don't worry. It's a good pharmaceutical company.  NEIL: Oh yeah. Uh, what does your dad say?  JON: My dad, uh, is actually very vocally supportive of my creative life. He usually says, "He's a performer and a comedian, and..."  NEIL: What kind of performances does he do? JON: "Oh, (In his father's accent) Jonathan does his funny stand up in New York City." And just stuff like that and yeah, I don't think they're, they're like ashamed of anything I do, but my dad came here for college. My mom came here when she was 13. They're kind of this transition generation, you know, they, they were really straddling both cultures and had to deal with the more brutish parts of assimilation. They came from traditional Chinese parents, but they're, you know, they're open-minded. They both grew up. They were like hippies. You look at old photos of them. My mom had like hair down to her waist. But, you know, you know, I'm the first drag queen of my family.  NEIL: That you know of.  JON: Hopefully not the last. NEIL: Yes. What is something you find yourself thinking about today?  JON: Um. Today, I was thinking about how everyone is a walking advertisement. I was a sucker for the AirPods, the first ones that came out. They're just, I know when I put them in my ear, I'm going to feel very sexy, and I had this thought today as I was putting them in my ear. It's like everyone is a walking advertisement.  NEIL: So when you're wearing AirPods, you're an advertisement for...  JON: Yeah, for Apple. My AirPods now suck because I lost the original case and I bought a knock off one on Amazon for like 30 bucks and they do try to pair with everyone on the train.  NEIL: Oh really?  JON: I just kind of, but you can't do it successfully. NEIL: It's like your dog humping strangers' legs or something. JON: Truly. I can see on people's phones like something comes up and says, Not your AirPods. It goes all the time and I just keep my head down and I just. I didn't want to pay another $70 for the case. NEIL: I've curated some cards just for you. Um, first card, Jon.  JON: Okay.  NEIL: All kids' names are campy.  JON: Absolutely. Cause kids are camp.  NEIL: How so?  JON: I used to teach, um, preschool in undergraduate. so I worked with three, four, and five-year-olds. And when you talk to a kid, it's very serious. It, it's of the utmost importance. And it's also insane.  NEIL: Which is the essence of camp!  JON: Which is the essence of camp. Um, but you know, when they're just playing, they're just talking very seriously about something. Or they're telling you an opinion, something they saw today, like.  (imitates kid's voice) "Like, Mr. Jon? Today, I, I saw a dog and... Dog had a really long tongue."  (back to normal voice) And they like will drop whatever they're playing with me to let me know about this thing, which neurologically like they're doing that thing where like, they have seen a new category that they don't yet understand and they're trying to integrate it into what they do, right? So I have to be there and say, "Daphne, tell me about the dog." You know, like I want to know more. Well, what color was the dog? You know what I'm saying? "It was, it was brown." I'm like, okay. All right. It was brown. I love that. So, but then it's also insane cause you're like, this is so crazy.  NEIL: To me, it makes perfect intuitive sense how that connects to camp. But could you, could you... JON: I think it connects to, I mean, camp, I mean, treats itself seriously, but knows it's also ridiculous. You know. I mean, campy drag queens like divine, completely over-the-top makeup and personality, but acting and performing with a lot of conviction.   NEIL: The difference, though, may be being, and maybe it's a technical difference, do you think kids know that they are ridiculous? JON: No. Absolutely not. Did you - NEIL: Okay. So they're inadvertently campy?  JON: Unless they were like early stars and then they're like, Oh, okay, people are enjoying what I'm doing.  NEIL: Right, right, right, right.  (flip card) I love the smell of a drag queen.  JON: Absolutely not. If you really smelled, uh, maybe the perfume that we put on at the very end, but if you smelled any of our undergarments or any of our clothing, that's, some of that, I mean, the vintage pieces maybe haven't ever been washed. Maybe just sprayed down with some alcohol and water.  To get rid of the bacteria and the smell. Um. And I'm not washing pantyhose every single week. Are you thinking of the metaphorical smell?  NEIL: I have no idea what that is. And I'm all in.  JON: Every drag queen has a different energy and that can be very intoxicating. That's like half the fun, that someone's showing you something on the other side of the looking glass. NEIL: Aha. But the literal smell for me is always about just powdery perfume. But you're saying beneath that is just... filth.  JON: I've, I guess I've, I've done it so many times. I'm no longer piqued by just the smell of powder and, and lipsticks and things like that. Just, that's kind of smells like the entrance of a, of a Macy's, you know? You know what I'm talking about, right? You walk into a Macy's and it's always like the perfume entrance, right? NEIL: Yeah, yeah. That somehow seems like a euphemism. Smells like the entrance of Macy's.  JON: God, she smelled like the entrance of a Macy's. I'm not going back there, Charlotte.  NEIL: Um, I guess I have thought about like with padding and tucking, uh...  JON: Mhm. Machinery going on. NEIL: Yeah. Which does involve compressing the body, or, or depriving the body of air circulation, which I guess could generate smells, right?  JON: Yeah. It's tight. I mean, if you're, I mean, if you're just, even if you're putting on hips, right? Let's say you're padding, some people, some queens are wearing four or five layers of tights, right? Just to make a smooth silhouette. Um, you know, and you're hot, you're moving around, your head is hot cause you're wearing a wig. My hair lines are glued down, so everything's sleek. So when I go, you know, getting out of drag is the best feeling.  NEIL: I can imagine. Do you get out of drag at the venue or at home? JON: I am an at home queen. And I'm also a get ready at home queen, too. I just ride the train down.  NEIL: Really?  JON: Yes. I mean, I'm in drag, but have like a winter coat on, and a scarf, and I have sweatpants over my dress, so I look like just like a, a gymnast going to a meet or something.  NEIL: To a Wheaties commercial.  JON: I look like a suburban mom going to Costco. NEIL: That thing of posing people in nude photos, so their genitals are hidden by a raised knee or what have you.  JON: That's very Black Mirror to me.  NEIL: Oh really?  JON: Oh, just like it's on the cusp of this is, this is very sexy, and also, what are we doing, right? What the hell are we doing? This is insane. I think of Instagram immediately. NEIL: Oh yeah, sure.  JON: People just like, a sexy photo of themselves. It's like, "You're naked." You hid, you moved your body a little bit. We're one centimeter away from seeing whatever it is, you know? But it's like, if you cover a little bit, Instagram's like, Oh, you're not nude.  NEIL: Isn't that deep?  JON: It's crazy. It's true. It's true. It's truly wild.  NEIL: I wonder if there is a fetish around obscured - like if there are people who get off on the actual obscuring.  JON: Oh, 100% yeah. 100% think that's a fetish. I mean, in the same way that just wearing a leather chest strap, that's totally nonfunctional.  NEIL: Right, exactly.  JON: Like there's not even a function to it. NEIL: Yeah.  JON: But I'm just imagining you in a different way. I mean, you know, cause you're an artist. Marina Abramovic's, um, performance where she stood naked, right? And she had a table of instruments.  NEIL: Yeah.  JON: That was, I think like the exploration of like is, is this actually like. Well, it was exploring a lot of things. Like one of the questions I had was like, is this sexual? Like, she had a feather. She had a knife. She had a gun, right?  NEIL: Uh, may have had a gun, uh, I thought she had scissors too. Or maybe I'm confusing that with Yoko Ono's "Cut" piece. Um, yeah, there were things that could do violence for sure.  JON: I think there was a gun. NEIL: Yeah, that sounds right.  JON: Um, that sounds very Marina probably.  NEIL: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.  JON: But, um, I think the reason why I thought Black Mirror at first, cause it's like we are so... We are surfing the simulacra of society.  NEIL: Oh my God.  JON: Who, Baudrillard? Is that the philosopher?  NEIL: Mhm. Society of spectacle. JON: I am really smart right now in this hour... NEIL: Oh my God. Um, it's funny you mention Marina Abramovic, cause one of the cards I have, or this is just an idea for an art project I would love to do, which is, you know, the artist is present where, you know, you would sit with and look into her eyes. But I'd like to do that with, butt warmth. You'd sit on chairs and then you would just switch. Like I could feel your butt warmth on the chair, and you could feel mine.  JON: And I'm going to, I'm going to build on this. The seats, to kind of give it some sort of like, um, sexy factor. The seats are thermo-visually dynamic. So when you sit, you can see the warmth, um, like a print? That the last person -  NEIL: The heat, the heat map.  JON: Mhm. The heat map of the last person.  NEIL: If that's what it's called. Our first collaboration.  JON: That's going to sell tickets at the MoMA. NEIL: This is a card I found tucked under my, uh, the, the sofa in my studio, and all it says is: Anus. JON: You know, synchronicity. Because we recently got a bidet. Um, which has quickly made my Top 2020 List of things to improve your life.  NEIL: Oh my God. Yeah.  JON: Um, bidet.  NEIL: Yeah.  JON: Pretty, uh very affordable. There are certain models that are just like, even under 50 bucks.  NEIL: Oh, wow. Okay.  JON: Will change your life.  NEIL: Huh? I, um, I would be, cause I feel like I've seen some like bidets that border on like the geriatric medical in terms of their appearance, you know, where they look like an add-on to the toilet seat. And, I feel like I would embrace a bidet deeply, but I need for the aesthetics to be on point.  JON: I hear you. I'm also someone who is an obsessed aesthete. And also I'm very practical and functional. And I really saw no point of a bidet cause I had a, was doing perfectly fine for God knows how many years, right? But we won it in a Santa Swap, like a, you know, the white elephant thing. Um, so we brought it home. I took it through the airport. My bag was fully paused cause they thought I was carrying home a bomb. Like what the fuck is in your bag, right? There's like piping and tubing, and this big shape of plastic and a knob. So, um, so this one's pretty sleek. And a bidet is, it's like a shower just for your ass. And. And that's it. It's, it's like, it's like taking a shower, but just for your anus. I, there's no other way to feel it. And I thought, and then I, I'm, and now I've, I've talked about it in my office because if I'm excited about something, I must to talk about it.  NEIL: Oh, yeah.  JON: And I'm going to put it out there - bidets are very sexual, and every straight man who's out there is understanding the queer experience. I, or like, this is like, you understand. It's like, Oh that's right, butt play isn't just like a gay thing. It's like a universal thing. And uh, you know, the anus is a sexual region, so you let it go for as long as you want. Some people have heated bidets, and that's nice cause then it's warm water. Mine is not, we have a cheap kind. So in the winter time it's frigid. But I like it because it makes me feel like I'm alive, and it's a test of character, which I get off on. And then you're done. And then it's, and then it's like you took a shower. NEIL: Ah. But you know, you should have front loaded the part that it's not heated. That might be a deal breaker for me. Although I also, like you, I'm energized by like, as a depressive. I love winter because it really brings out, um, a feeling of like, the will to live in me.  JON: And it's good for your skin.  NEIL: Cheers. But I don't want. I don't think I want, I don't know. I've never had that experience. I don't think I want a cold-water anal shower.   JON: Uh huh. Well, you know, and neither did I, I thought it would, it would never be on my radar. And that's why it's made my Top 2020 List.  NEIL: Wow.  JON: And I know we're just wrapping up the first month, but I think it's going to be on there. NEIL: Oh, I'm so confident in that, I'm so confident in that. I think if they called it a cold-water anal shower, it wouldn't sell as many units as a bidet.  JON: It would only sell in niche markets for sure.  NEIL: Uh, next card. The way you can tell certain people won't age well.  JON: Yeah. Um, you can just tell. Uh, for me it's just like an impression.  NEIL: Yes. It's not based on facts, for me.  JON: Truly not based on facts. A lot of it really just has to do with their energy.  NEIL: Exactly.  JON: Absolutely. Like their energy, the way they carry themselves, the way they think about themselves. Did you read that Roald Dahl book, The Twits?  NEIL: No. JON: The Twits. I can't recap the entire plot in entirety, but there's this one part of like, they think ugly thoughts and then they became ugly. And it was, you know, he is an amazing writer. But yeah, that never left me as a kid. And I think that continues to apply today. Even there are people who are old, but they just. They look and appear and they feel so young. And they're aging like, “Oh my gosh, you're aging beautifully.” NEIL: Right. I love that.  JON: Right?  NEIL: Yeah.  JON: It's not about having wrinkles or things like that. There really is a disposition, the way you carry yourself.  NEIL: Yeah. I find also, I think that card for me came from like, it, it can be a strategy or it used to be a strategy for managing, like desire. Like I would see someone who was hot to me, but then I would mentally age them and be like, No, as a way to... Yeah, manage my desire.  JON: Yeah. I mean, I'm not petty, but I recently went to a high school reunion and I said, I loved that I did not peak.  NEIL: Oh my God.  JON: I'm still ascending.  NEIL: Oh, you so are. You totally are.  JON: Oh, thank you. And you are too.  NEIL: Um, I think I, I don't know where I am.  JON: You're aging gracefully.  NEIL: Thank you. I'm trying.  JON: That's, and that's the goal. Yeah. No. Cause it's like some people that were like super hot in like, in high school and you're just like, Oh wow. I think we, I think our people had a different kind of strategy. We had a different strategy.  NEIL: Yeah. It's like, um. I just read this book called The Overstory, which is all about trees. I don't know if you heard of it. It's so good. I recommend it, but, uh, it talks about the different things different trees' seeds need to become activated. Like some seeds need extreme cold. Some need to be set on fire. Um, so I think the gay seed... That sounds bad. JON: No, no, no. Perfect.  NEIL: Um, benefits from not having peaked in high school. JON: Yes, absolutely.  NEIL: Can I ask how old you are?  JON: 29. 29, my numerological golden year.  NEIL: Oh, what does that mean?  JON: Everyone has a life path number.  Okay, so mine breaks down to 29 slash 11 slash 2. If you're a, ever all my die-hard numerologists out there. Um, and so 29 is the first reduction. And so I'm 29.  NEIL: I love it. Um 29 and 11 are both prime numbers, aren't they?   JON: Mm, I studied visual arts in undergraduate, so I'm going to pass on this one. But you know, you calculate your number by just adding your birthdate across like... So mine is zero plus eight plus zero plus two plus one plus nine plus nine zero equals 29. Two plus nine is 11. One plus one is two. NEIL: I love it.  JON: And then they all have meanings. You know, there's a whole book. You can Google it.  NEIL: Yeah, I can imagine. Wait, so you were born in August? Was that what I heard? Leo? JON: I'm a Leo. Are you a Leo?  NEIL: No, I'm a Virgo.  JON: Oh! I have a lot of Virgo friends.  NEIL: I have a lot of Leo friends. Well, Virgo teaches Leo. You're taught by the sign that follows you. So Virgo is taught by Libra. Leo is taught by Virgo.  JON: Yes, yes. And. The sign before you teaches a person after to remember that they didn't have to give up the qualities that they left behind. NEIL:  Cheers.  JON: Virgos are famously the perfectionists, right? Natural at managing their immediate environments and, you know, being very meticulous and they could run the whole system, but then they forget that they're also, you know, they can allow themselves to shine. They don't have to be so critical of themselves.  NEIL: That is such a beautiful, um, flipping of the teaching thing. I love it.  JON: You know who is a prime example of a Leo-Virgo cusp?  NEIL: Who? JON: Beyoncé. So you can tell she has the Virgo energy of like, everything must be perfect.  NEIL: Absolutely.  JON: Um, and I'll think of my idea and then I'll present it to you. But then she's also, you know, still carrying her Leo energy of like, I am a star.  NEIL: Right, exactly. That's deep. You have forever changed how I think about, um, the Zodiac.  JON: And that's my time today.  NEIL: Yes. (flips card) What's a bad X you'd take over a good Y?  JON: What's a bad X you'd take over a good Y? Oh gosh. I would take a bad massage over a good meal.  NEIL: I'm with you, totally with you.  JON: I had to really think.  NEIL: Yeah, you look a little spent right now.  JON: No, I mean that, that took the, the, the final juice of my brain. Yeah. We have, we have gone to the trenches of my brain and pulled everything out. That was it. I mean, like, that's it. That's my, that's my ethos.  NEIL: Have you had a bad massage?  JON: Absolutely. And would I take it over a good meal? 100%. I'm a little, I'm a little surprised that I haven't vocalized this earlier in my life, but that's how you know this is the genuine response. Bad massages? Oh, I don't care. Someone's touching me, oh, I melt. I like, I think I'm like in a constant state of low-grade ecstasy when someone's touching me. Right?  NEIL: Yeah.  JON: It could be terrible. And I have had my share of terrible massages. You know, Chinatown massages have a spectrum.  NEIL: Yeah, yeah, yeah.  JON: No frills. You can't complain.  NEIL: Yeah.  JON: Good meal? Okay. But I know I'm gonna be hungry again. You know, like... Meal goodness to me is controllable cause you could let yourself go to the brink of like, I can't see, I'm so hungry and anything will taste good. Yes. Sometimes I do that. Sometimes I let myself get so hungry if I'm, if there's a meal I'm not thrilled to eat. I'd be like, Oh, I'm more vegetarian now, but when I would, when I was less, I would hang out with some of my friends, I'm like, Oh, I'm going to go to their place. I'm going to let myself get famished cause then it won't matter what I eat.  NEIL: Cause they're not good cooks, potentially? JON: Cause like, Oh, I really wanted meat. But like who knows what the vegetarian meal will be. A crap-shoot. But I'll be so hungry. It's going to taste like milk and honey from the Bible.  NEIL: You found a way to turn - you've made it predictable. You've managed it.  JON: I mean the gamble is, you do become more irritable and you have to kind of like have a lot of self-control. NEIL: Right, right, right.  JON: People want to small talk with you. You'd be like, okay, when's dinner?  NEIL: When's the shitty dinner that I'm starving for?  JON: A shout out to all my vegetarian friends. I love coming over to your house and don't stop making food from me.  NEIL: On that note, Jon Wan, thank you so much for being on SHE'S A TALKER. JON: Oh, thank you for having me, Neil. NEIL: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of SHE'S A TALKER. Before we get to the credits, there were some listener responses to cards that I'd love to share. In my conversation with Buddhist teacher Kate Johnson, we talked about the card:  I can imagine thinking as I'm dying, "Here we go again."  In response to that card, David Coleman wrote, "The one time that I ever really thought I was about to die, all I could think was, 'Wow, so this is it. Nothing more than this.' It was a feeling of peaceful surprise. This story is from 9/ 11. My building was so close to the World Trade Center that when the first tower started to collapse, it appeared as though it was going to fall to the East, which would've completely flattened my building, and I felt so sure I was about to die. Actually, for the next several months, I had this little secret thought I'd never shared that maybe I really was dead. But then again, my neurologist also said I was the only person he'd ever heard of who enjoyed having a stroke. So don't go by me." Thank you, David. If anyone out there listening has something that you'd like to share about a card on the podcast, email us or send us a voice memo at shesatalker@gmail.com or message us on Instagram at shesatalker. And also, as always, we'd love it if you'd rate and review us on Apple Podcasts or share this episode with a friend. This series is made possible with generous support from Still Point Fund. Devon Guinn produced this episode. Molly Donahue and Aaron Dalton are our consulting producers. Justine Lee handles social media. Our interns are Alara Degirmenci, Jonathan Jalbert, Jesse Kimotho, and Rachel Wang. Our card flip beats come from Josh Graver, and my husband, Jeff Hiller, sings the theme song you're about to hear. Thanks to all of them, and to my guest, Jon Wan, and to you for listening. JEFF HILLER: She's a talker with Neil Goldberg. She's a talker with fabulous guests. She's a talker, it's better than it sounds, yeah!

Hold up, is this Babish's worst episode? Is this the Boyz's BEST episode? Probably not. Regardless, the aforementioned Boyz do their best to discuss an episode that James hated. They discuss the most pressing questions of our time, such as, is 101 too many Dalmatians? Who is having the best post-Game of Thrones career? Speaking of which, who will have the best post-Gabbing with Babish career? Oh, its Jon? You answered very quickly. No, I think you're right, its just...you were VERY quick with that answer. Well...enjoy the episode! Like, subscribe, follow @gabwithbab on Twitter & @gabbingwithbabish on instagram and electronically mail us @ gabbingwithbabish@gmail.com!

#TheKillingGround Haiku: You know nothing, Jon You, a son of Winterfell The man for the job Welcome to the Ironwood Network Book Club with your hosts Maester Ironwood and Septa Ironwood. Every week we are going to walk you through George RR Martin’s A Song of Ice and Fire books chapter by chapter. This week […]

#TheKillingGround Haiku: You know nothing, Jon You, a son of Winterfell The man for the job Welcome to the Ironwood Network Book Club with your hosts Maester Ironwood and Septa Ironwood. Every week we are going to walk you through George RR Martin’s A Song of Ice and Fire books chapter by chapter. This week […]

We are replaying one of the most popular shows for you this week!    * * *   Today, we’re talking about Jon McMahon’s docuseries and his journey to conquer obesity and reverse diabetes. Imagine being over 357 pounds with triglycerides topping out at 2170 and making the decision to turn it all around. That is exactly what Jon did. We couldn’t wait to share his personal story and applaud his bravery in sharing his journey with the world in hopes of inspiring others to do the same.   * * *   About Jon At 312 pounds with advanced type 2 diabetes and all of its complications, Jon’s future looked bleak and he knew it. The question that remained for him was this: “Do I want to live?” His answer was yes. And in 2017, Jon embarked out on a quest to get to the heart of the problem underlying the epidemic of diabetes and how people are successfully reversing it without medication.   The result was a nine-part documentary series, iThrive: Rising from The Depths of Diabetes and Obesity. The series has inspired hundreds of thousands of people to transform their lives and has given Jon his life’s mission of helping others rise from the death, from the depths, and reclaim their health.   * * *   How Bad is the Diabetes Problem? In a paper written by Dr. David Matthews, in 2010, he says, “What is coming is the black plague.” Neil Barnard, from the Physicians Committee on Responsible Medicine, says, “It’s going to be worse than the black plague. Millions and millions and millions of people are going to suffer long, and then they’re going to die in a lot of pain.” Google search results “Diabetes in Mexico” - “Diabetes in Mexico, an epidemic and the number-one killer.” “Diabetes in China,” China’s the most populous country with the most diabetics in the world, 109 million, and that’s not even pre-diabetes. “Diabetes in India,” oh, India and China are in competition for the “Diabetes capitol of the world.” “Diabetes in America,” over 100 million people in America with diabetes. Pre-diabetes - 86 million in the United States with pre-diabetes. 90 percent of them, says the Centers for Disease Control, don’t even know it. Wes Youngberg said even the standards for measuring pre-diabetes are too lax. Just between three countries, 300-400 million people. And that’s not counting all the ones with pre-diabetes, another 200-300 million people.   Myths Around Type-2 Diabetes You have to be fat. Obesity is highly correlated with it. Wes Youngberg says, “If you think you’re skinny and you’re off the hook, think again.” 20 or 30 percent of those with diabetes are in their healthy BMI range. You have to be old, in your 40s or 50s to get diabetes. Young people are getting diabetes now in college, in their teens, now in high school. Epigenetics - gene expression can be turned on by your environment and what you do. If you take one parent that is obese, one parent out of two that’s obese, their child is four times more likely to be obese. If both parents are obese, this obesity risk factor increases the child’s risk factor for diabetes, not by 1 ½ times, or 1 ¾ or 2 times, by 30 times. If both parents are obese during the conception, the birth, and the raising of the child, the child is 15 times the likelihood to be obese.   Jon’s Mission Wake people up. When they’re awake, inspire them. If people ever wanted to change the world, it would be by changing ourselves from the inside out.   We Are All Individuals We have individualized needs, and our genes are different. In large ways, we’re similar, but in small ways, we have a lot of variance.   Jon’s Journey A friend said to Jon, “Jon, I’m not going to bug you anymore. I’m not going to ask you what you ate. I’m not going to ask you how you’re doing, what your weight is, how you’re—if you’re following—you’re reaching your goals, or whatever. Because I care more about you than you care about yourself. Jon, you’ve got to decide whether you want to live.” Jon was intentional about his decision. “I want to live.” Educated himself on type 2 diabetes and obesity. Interviewed people on nutrition and the psychology of food addiction. Susan Pierce-Thompson, and Dr. Doug Lyle and Allen Goldhamer Our drives Wanting the richest food and seeking out the richest food in the environment. Foods are manufactured to stimulate the dopamine pathway exactly like cocaine, heroin or nicotine. Law of the conservation of energy - whatever’s more convenient for us, that’s what we’re going to do. Manage our environment, and make it work for us He took time to learn about his personality traits about how he can navigate through to his goal. Movement matters - walking an hour a day, or half hour a day, or some simple exercises. Once the body gets a little free of some of the toxins, free of some of the weight, it wants to move. Ask for help. Connection and community are key.   Outcome Jon lost 100 pounds Jon reversed, reversed his diabetes and obesity. He is not obese, and he is not diabetic. Jon’s A1C, I the words of his doctor, is better than most kids in college that come through his office. It’s 4.6.   One Last Bit of Advice from Jon “You are not alone, you are not broken, and you are not bad and wrong. You are okay. You can actually do it. If I can do it, anybody can do it.”     Deeper Dive Resources   iThrive! Rising from The Depths of Diabetes and Obesity https://go.ithriveseries.com/report?ref=202839&a_bid=9ee07978&chan=Report20190722A   Dr. David Matthews Paper on Diabetes https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21166840   Dr. Barnard and the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine https://www.pcrm.org/health-topics/diabetes   Comparisons of Diabetes and Black Death https://southcoastherald.co.za/290964/turning-tide-lifestyle-diseases-diabetes-modern-plague-part-1/   Google search results https://lmgtfy.com/?q=diabetes+in+Mexico https://lmgtfy.com/?q=diabetes+in+China https://lmgtfy.com/?q=diabetes+in+America   CDC report on pre-diabetes https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2017/p0718-diabetes-report.html   Dr. Wes Youngberg http://dryoungberg.com/   Epigenetics https://www.whatisepigenetics.com/what-is-epigenetics/   Empowering You Organically podcasts with Dr. Susan Pierce-Thompson https://empoweringyouorganically.com/podcast/episode-10-effective-goal-setting-in-the-new-year/ https://empoweringyouorganically.com/podcast/episode-9-coping-with-the-holiday-hangover/ https://empoweringyouorganically.com/podcast/episode-12-sugar-addiction-its-a-real-thing/

We are replaying one of the most popular shows for you this week!    * * *   Today, we’re talking about Jon McMahon’s docuseries and his journey to conquer obesity and reverse diabetes. Imagine being over 357 pounds with triglycerides topping out at 2170 and making the decision to turn it all around. That is exactly what Jon did. We couldn’t wait to share his personal story and applaud his bravery in sharing his journey with the world in hopes of inspiring others to do the same.   * * *   About Jon At 312 pounds with advanced type 2 diabetes and all of its complications, Jon’s future looked bleak and he knew it. The question that remained for him was this: “Do I want to live?” His answer was yes. And in 2017, Jon embarked out on a quest to get to the heart of the problem underlying the epidemic of diabetes and how people are successfully reversing it without medication.   The result was a nine-part documentary series, iThrive: Rising from The Depths of Diabetes and Obesity. The series has inspired hundreds of thousands of people to transform their lives and has given Jon his life’s mission of helping others rise from the death, from the depths, and reclaim their health.   * * *   How Bad is the Diabetes Problem? In a paper written by Dr. David Matthews, in 2010, he says, “What is coming is the black plague.” Neil Barnard, from the Physicians Committee on Responsible Medicine, says, “It’s going to be worse than the black plague. Millions and millions and millions of people are going to suffer long, and then they’re going to die in a lot of pain.” Google search results “Diabetes in Mexico” - “Diabetes in Mexico, an epidemic and the number-one killer.” “Diabetes in China,” China’s the most populous country with the most diabetics in the world, 109 million, and that’s not even pre-diabetes. “Diabetes in India,” oh, India and China are in competition for the “Diabetes capitol of the world.” “Diabetes in America,” over 100 million people in America with diabetes. Pre-diabetes - 86 million in the United States with pre-diabetes. 90 percent of them, says the Centers for Disease Control, don’t even know it. Wes Youngberg said even the standards for measuring pre-diabetes are too lax. Just between three countries, 300-400 million people. And that’s not counting all the ones with pre-diabetes, another 200-300 million people.   Myths Around Type-2 Diabetes You have to be fat. Obesity is highly correlated with it. Wes Youngberg says, “If you think you’re skinny and you’re off the hook, think again.” 20 or 30 percent of those with diabetes are in their healthy BMI range. You have to be old, in your 40s or 50s to get diabetes. Young people are getting diabetes now in college, in their teens, now in high school. Epigenetics - gene expression can be turned on by your environment and what you do. If you take one parent that is obese, one parent out of two that’s obese, their child is four times more likely to be obese. If both parents are obese, this obesity risk factor increases the child’s risk factor for diabetes, not by 1 ½ times, or 1 ¾ or 2 times, by 30 times. If both parents are obese during the conception, the birth, and the raising of the child, the child is 15 times the likelihood to be obese.   Jon’s Mission Wake people up. When they’re awake, inspire them. If people ever wanted to change the world, it would be by changing ourselves from the inside out.   We Are All Individuals We have individualized needs, and our genes are different. In large ways, we’re similar, but in small ways, we have a lot of variance.   Jon’s Journey A friend said to Jon, “Jon, I’m not going to bug you anymore. I’m not going to ask you what you ate. I’m not going to ask you how you’re doing, what your weight is, how you’re—if you’re following—you’re reaching your goals, or whatever. Because I care more about you than you care about yourself. Jon, you’ve got to decide whether you want to live.” Jon was intentional about his decision. “I want to live.” Educated himself on type 2 diabetes and obesity. Interviewed people on nutrition and the psychology of food addiction. Susan Pierce-Thompson, and Dr. Doug Lyle and Allen Goldhamer Our drives Wanting the richest food and seeking out the richest food in the environment. Foods are manufactured to stimulate the dopamine pathway exactly like cocaine, heroin or nicotine. Law of the conservation of energy - whatever’s more convenient for us, that’s what we’re going to do. Manage our environment, and make it work for us He took time to learn about his personality traits about how he can navigate through to his goal. Movement matters - walking an hour a day, or half hour a day, or some simple exercises. Once the body gets a little free of some of the toxins, free of some of the weight, it wants to move. Ask for help. Connection and community are key.   Outcome Jon lost 100 pounds Jon reversed, reversed his diabetes and obesity. He is not obese, and he is not diabetic. Jon’s A1C, I the words of his doctor, is better than most kids in college that come through his office. It’s 4.6.   One Last Bit of Advice from Jon “You are not alone, you are not broken, and you are not bad and wrong. You are okay. You can actually do it. If I can do it, anybody can do it.”     Deeper Dive Resources   iThrive! Rising from The Depths of Diabetes and Obesity https://go.ithriveseries.com/report?ref=202839&a_bid=9ee07978&chan=Report20190722A   Dr. David Matthews Paper on Diabetes https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21166840   Dr. Barnard and the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine https://www.pcrm.org/health-topics/diabetes   Comparisons of Diabetes and Black Death https://southcoastherald.co.za/290964/turning-tide-lifestyle-diseases-diabetes-modern-plague-part-1/   Google search results https://lmgtfy.com/?q=diabetes+in+Mexico https://lmgtfy.com/?q=diabetes+in+China https://lmgtfy.com/?q=diabetes+in+America   CDC report on pre-diabetes https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2017/p0718-diabetes-report.html   Dr. Wes Youngberg http://dryoungberg.com/   Epigenetics https://www.whatisepigenetics.com/what-is-epigenetics/   Empowering You Organically podcasts with Dr. Susan Pierce-Thompson https://empoweringyouorganically.com/podcast/episode-10-effective-goal-setting-in-the-new-year/ https://empoweringyouorganically.com/podcast/episode-9-coping-with-the-holiday-hangover/ https://empoweringyouorganically.com/podcast/episode-12-sugar-addiction-its-a-real-thing/

Today, we’re talking about Jon McMahon’s docuseries and his journey to conquer obesity and reverse diabetes. Imagine being over 357 pounds with triglycerides topping out at 2170 and making the decision to turn it all around. That is exactly what Jon did. We couldn’t wait to share his personal story and applaud his bravery in sharing his journey with the world in hopes of inspiring others to do the same.   * * *   About Jon At 312 pounds with advanced type 2 diabetes and all of its complications, Jon’s future looked bleak and he knew it. The question that remained for him was this: “Do I want to live?” His answer was yes. And in 2017, Jon embarked out on a quest to get to the heart of the problem underlying the epidemic of diabetes and how people are successfully reversing it without medication.   The result was a nine-part documentary series, iThrive: Rising from The Depths of Diabetes and Obesity. The series has inspired hundreds of thousands of people to transform their lives and has given Jon his life’s mission of helping others rise from the death, from the depths, and reclaim their health.   * * *   How Bad is the Diabetes Problem? In a paper written by Dr. David Matthews, in 2010, he says, “What is coming is the black plague.” Neil Barnard, from the Physicians Committee on Responsible Medicine, says, “It’s going to be worse than the black plague. Millions and millions and millions of people are going to suffer long, and then they’re going to die in a lot of pain.” Google search results “Diabetes in Mexico” - “Diabetes in Mexico, an epidemic and the number-one killer.” “Diabetes in China,” China’s the most populous country with the most diabetics in the world, 109 million, and that’s not even pre-diabetes. “Diabetes in India,” oh, India and China are in competition for the “Diabetes capitol of the world.” “Diabetes in America,” over 100 million people in America with diabetes. Pre-diabetes - 86 million in the United States with pre-diabetes. 90 percent of them, says the Centers for Disease Control, don’t even know it. Wes Youngberg said even the standards for measuring pre-diabetes are too lax. Just between three countries, 300-400 million people. And that’s not counting all the ones with pre-diabetes, another 200-300 million people.   Myths Around Type-2 Diabetes You have to be fat. Obesity is highly correlated with it. Wes Youngberg says, “If you think you’re skinny and you’re off the hook, think again.” 20 or 30 percent of those with diabetes are in their healthy BMI range. You have to be old, in your 40s or 50s to get diabetes. Young people are getting diabetes now in college, in their teens, now in high school. Epigenetics - gene expression can be turned on by your environment and what you do. If you take one parent that is obese, one parent out of two that’s obese, their child is four times more likely to be obese. If both parents are obese, this obesity risk factor increases the child’s risk factor for diabetes, not by 1 ½ times, or 1 ¾ or 2 times, by 30 times. If both parents are obese during the conception, the birth, and the raising of the child, the child is 15 times the likelihood to be obese.   Jon’s Mission Wake people up. When they’re awake, inspire them. If people ever wanted to change the world, it would be by changing ourselves from the inside out.   We Are All Individuals We have individualized needs, and our genes are different. In large ways, we’re similar, but in small ways, we have a lot of variance.   Jon’s Journey A friend said to Jon, “Jon, I’m not going to bug you anymore. I’m not going to ask you what you ate. I’m not going to ask you how you’re doing, what your weight is, how you’re—if you’re following—you’re reaching your goals, or whatever. Because I care more about you than you care about yourself. Jon, you’ve got to decide whether you want to live.” Jon was intentional about his decision. “I want to live.” Educated himself on type 2 diabetes and obesity. Interviewed people on nutrition and the psychology of food addiction. Susan Pierce-Thompson, and Dr. Doug Lyle and Allen Goldhamer Our drives Wanting the richest food and seeking out the richest food in the environment. Foods are manufactured to stimulate the dopamine pathway exactly like cocaine, heroin or nicotine. Law of the conservation of energy - whatever’s more convenient for us, that’s what we’re going to do. Manage our environment, and make it work for us He took time to learn about his personality traits about how he can navigate through to his goal. Movement matters - walking an hour a day, or half hour a day, or some simple exercises. Once the body gets a little free of some of the toxins, free of some of the weight, it wants to move. Ask for help. Connection and community are key.   Outcome Jon lost 100 pounds Jon reversed, reversed his diabetes and obesity. He is not obese, and he is not diabetic. Jon’s A1C, I the words of his doctor, is better than most kids in college that come through his office. It’s 4.6.   One Last Bit of Advice from Jon “You are not alone, you are not broken, and you are not bad and wrong. You are okay. You can actually do it. If I can do it, anybody can do it.”     Deeper Dive Resources   iThrive! Rising from The Depths of Diabetes and Obesity https://go.ithriveseries.com/report?ref=202839&a_bid=9ee07978&chan=Report20190722A   Dr. David Matthews Paper on Diabetes https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21166840   Dr. Barnard and the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine https://www.pcrm.org/health-topics/diabetes   Comparisons of Diabetes and Black Death https://southcoastherald.co.za/290964/turning-tide-lifestyle-diseases-diabetes-modern-plague-part-1/   Google search results https://lmgtfy.com/?q=diabetes+in+Mexico https://lmgtfy.com/?q=diabetes+in+China https://lmgtfy.com/?q=diabetes+in+America   CDC report on pre-diabetes https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2017/p0718-diabetes-report.html   Dr. Wes Youngberg http://dryoungberg.com/   Epigenetics https://www.whatisepigenetics.com/what-is-epigenetics/   Empowering You Organically podcasts with Dr. Susan Pierce-Thompson https://empoweringyouorganically.com/podcast/episode-10-effective-goal-setting-in-the-new-year/ https://empoweringyouorganically.com/podcast/episode-9-coping-with-the-holiday-hangover/ https://empoweringyouorganically.com/podcast/episode-12-sugar-addiction-its-a-real-thing/

Today, we’re talking about Jon McMahon’s docuseries and his journey to conquer obesity and reverse diabetes. Imagine being over 357 pounds with triglycerides topping out at 2170 and making the decision to turn it all around. That is exactly what Jon did. We couldn’t wait to share his personal story and applaud his bravery in sharing his journey with the world in hopes of inspiring others to do the same.   * * *   About Jon At 312 pounds with advanced type 2 diabetes and all of its complications, Jon’s future looked bleak and he knew it. The question that remained for him was this: “Do I want to live?” His answer was yes. And in 2017, Jon embarked out on a quest to get to the heart of the problem underlying the epidemic of diabetes and how people are successfully reversing it without medication.   The result was a nine-part documentary series, iThrive: Rising from The Depths of Diabetes and Obesity. The series has inspired hundreds of thousands of people to transform their lives and has given Jon his life’s mission of helping others rise from the death, from the depths, and reclaim their health.   * * *   How Bad is the Diabetes Problem? In a paper written by Dr. David Matthews, in 2010, he says, “What is coming is the black plague.” Neil Barnard, from the Physicians Committee on Responsible Medicine, says, “It’s going to be worse than the black plague. Millions and millions and millions of people are going to suffer long, and then they’re going to die in a lot of pain.” Google search results “Diabetes in Mexico” - “Diabetes in Mexico, an epidemic and the number-one killer.” “Diabetes in China,” China’s the most populous country with the most diabetics in the world, 109 million, and that’s not even pre-diabetes. “Diabetes in India,” oh, India and China are in competition for the “Diabetes capitol of the world.” “Diabetes in America,” over 100 million people in America with diabetes. Pre-diabetes - 86 million in the United States with pre-diabetes. 90 percent of them, says the Centers for Disease Control, don’t even know it. Wes Youngberg said even the standards for measuring pre-diabetes are too lax. Just between three countries, 300-400 million people. And that’s not counting all the ones with pre-diabetes, another 200-300 million people.   Myths Around Type-2 Diabetes You have to be fat. Obesity is highly correlated with it. Wes Youngberg says, “If you think you’re skinny and you’re off the hook, think again.” 20 or 30 percent of those with diabetes are in their healthy BMI range. You have to be old, in your 40s or 50s to get diabetes. Young people are getting diabetes now in college, in their teens, now in high school. Epigenetics - gene expression can be turned on by your environment and what you do. If you take one parent that is obese, one parent out of two that’s obese, their child is four times more likely to be obese. If both parents are obese, this obesity risk factor increases the child’s risk factor for diabetes, not by 1 ½ times, or 1 ¾ or 2 times, by 30 times. If both parents are obese during the conception, the birth, and the raising of the child, the child is 15 times the likelihood to be obese.   Jon’s Mission Wake people up. When they’re awake, inspire them. If people ever wanted to change the world, it would be by changing ourselves from the inside out.   We Are All Individuals We have individualized needs, and our genes are different. In large ways, we’re similar, but in small ways, we have a lot of variance.   Jon’s Journey A friend said to Jon, “Jon, I’m not going to bug you anymore. I’m not going to ask you what you ate. I’m not going to ask you how you’re doing, what your weight is, how you’re—if you’re following—you’re reaching your goals, or whatever. Because I care more about you than you care about yourself. Jon, you’ve got to decide whether you want to live.” Jon was intentional about his decision. “I want to live.” Educated himself on type 2 diabetes and obesity. Interviewed people on nutrition and the psychology of food addiction. Susan Pierce-Thompson, and Dr. Doug Lyle and Allen Goldhamer Our drives Wanting the richest food and seeking out the richest food in the environment. Foods are manufactured to stimulate the dopamine pathway exactly like cocaine, heroin or nicotine. Law of the conservation of energy - whatever’s more convenient for us, that’s what we’re going to do. Manage our environment, and make it work for us He took time to learn about his personality traits about how he can navigate through to his goal. Movement matters - walking an hour a day, or half hour a day, or some simple exercises. Once the body gets a little free of some of the toxins, free of some of the weight, it wants to move. Ask for help. Connection and community are key.   Outcome Jon lost 100 pounds Jon reversed, reversed his diabetes and obesity. He is not obese, and he is not diabetic. Jon’s A1C, I the words of his doctor, is better than most kids in college that come through his office. It’s 4.6.   One Last Bit of Advice from Jon “You are not alone, you are not broken, and you are not bad and wrong. You are okay. You can actually do it. If I can do it, anybody can do it.”     Deeper Dive Resources   iThrive! Rising from The Depths of Diabetes and Obesity https://go.ithriveseries.com/report?ref=202839&a_bid=9ee07978&chan=Report20190722A   Dr. David Matthews Paper on Diabetes https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21166840   Dr. Barnard and the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine https://www.pcrm.org/health-topics/diabetes   Comparisons of Diabetes and Black Death https://southcoastherald.co.za/290964/turning-tide-lifestyle-diseases-diabetes-modern-plague-part-1/   Google search results https://lmgtfy.com/?q=diabetes+in+Mexico https://lmgtfy.com/?q=diabetes+in+China https://lmgtfy.com/?q=diabetes+in+America   CDC report on pre-diabetes https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2017/p0718-diabetes-report.html   Dr. Wes Youngberg http://dryoungberg.com/   Epigenetics https://www.whatisepigenetics.com/what-is-epigenetics/   Empowering You Organically podcasts with Dr. Susan Pierce-Thompson https://empoweringyouorganically.com/podcast/episode-10-effective-goal-setting-in-the-new-year/ https://empoweringyouorganically.com/podcast/episode-9-coping-with-the-holiday-hangover/ https://empoweringyouorganically.com/podcast/episode-12-sugar-addiction-its-a-real-thing/

GUEST BIO: Jon Skeet is a Staff Software Engineer at Google, working from the London office on the Google Cloud Client Libraries for .NET. He's probably better known for his contributions on Stack Overflow and his book, C# in Depth. Jon is married to Holly Webb, a prolific children's author, and they have three children together. EPISODE DESCRIPTION: In this episode Phil interviews Jon Skeet who is a senior software engineer for Google. He is the author behind C# in Depth, a book that made him something of a C# legend. Jon is also a well-known Stack Overflow contributor who has a reputation for providing descriptive answers that solve the toughest challenges. Some go as far as calling him “the Chuck Norris of programming”. KEY TAKEAWAYS: ­­­ (1.00) – So Jon, can you expand on that summary and tell us a little bit more about yourself? In response, Jon explains that he is a big fan of working from home. So, he does not spend very much time at Google’s London headquarters. Instead he works out of a high tech, air-conditioned shed, complete with an ice-cream maker and surround-sound. Jon is a feminist, a Methodist and a local preacher who has a passion for musical theatre. (2.03) – Phil asks Jon for a unique IT career tip, something the audience should know. Jon replies that it is important to remember that “you will make far quicker progress in the long run, if you take one step at a time. Work through the problem in a structured way using a language you are really familiar with. If you are learning a new language, start by doing really simple things. But, don’t be afraid to “step into the dark” to try something totally new. Just do so consciously and accept that failing, at first, is fine. You will learn a lot that way. Spend most of your time working in a familiar way and try just one new thing at a time, so that you are always making progress. (4.14) Phil asks if Jon would describe that as a sort of incremental process. Jon said yes, “it is really don’t run before you can walk.” (4.38) – Phil asks Jon to share his worst career moment and what he learned from it. For Jon his low-point was not directly related to coding or a technical issue. He was working on a product launch with a looming deadline. As a result, he ended up working very odd hours to get the job done. Instead of arriving at the station at his normal time of 6.45 he was getting there at about 3.30am. He was compensating a bit by going home a little earlier than normal but he was actually working long hours. Plus, even though he was going to bed earlier he was not sleeping well. People were telling him he did not look well, so he was clearly stretched. But, he carried on working that way, until one morning he was mugged. The mugging probably would not have happened if there were more people around. Being mugged stopped Jon in his tracks and he realized that he needed to take more care of himself. He decided to stop putting in a lot of hours at the wrong times of the day. He no longer pushed himself so hard or let others do it to him.  Jon realized that he had to take care of himself. (7.18) – Phil wants to know what Jon’s best career moment was. Jon starts by explaining that he is proud of helping thousands of people and being at the top of Stack Overflow as well as his book and software. But, his career highlights have come while talking with other people. For example, in June, Jon spent several days talking with and teaching alongside a lead designer on C#. During that collaboration he learned a huge amount about why C# is designed the way it is. Talking and working with others teaches him a lot and is very fulfilling.  (9.18) – Phil asks what excites Jon about the future of IT. To some extent for Jon it is how little we know about it. “We are now in an age where when you go to university half of the jobs the student take up don’t exist yet.” The fact that we cannot really tell what tech is going to look like in 10 years time is exciting. Potentially, a whole area that nobody is even considering now could easily come to the fore. (10.56) – What drew you to a career in IT, Jon? From the age of 8 Jon played games on a ZX Spectrum 48K. Eventually, he started programming on the Spectrum. For his first project, he created a logo interpreter. He was motivated to do so because the BBC microcomputer at school had one. His innocence meant that he did not know that you could not implement the code yourself. So, he did not see that so-called impossible barrier. As a result, he just kept working at it until he got it done. By age 9 or 10 he was in love with programming. (12.32) – What is the best career advice you were given? “Be good at one thing” – make sure that there is one thing that you are really comfortable in. It is good to have several strings to your bow. But, be the go-to person for at least one topic or discipline. (13.36) – If you were to start your IT career again, what would you do? Jon said that because things are changing so quickly he has no idea. It would depend on what would hook him. “I am a big fan of doing something that you are interested in for whatever reason you’re interested.” He explained why this is so important using an example.  Someone could be inspired to help out in a soup kitchen and while there wonder if they can automate the rota. That leads to working out what the best way to organize it is. This in turn leads to them falling into all kinds of optimization things. Suddenly, you are having fun developing and optimizing things and you become an inspired developer.  (15.29) – Phil asks Jon what career objectives Jon currently focusing on. Jon’s response is “Having a good time.” He has never chased money or power. Instead, he has chased having a good life. Right now, he enjoys writing in C#. Jon also relishes the fact that he can work from home and spend plenty of time with his family, which he loves doing. (16.52) – What is your most important non-technical skill? Jon’s short answer is “empathy and compassion”. We have done a great job of solving the problems of straight white men, because that is the demographic of most software developers. That needs to change. We need to solve the problems of the people that are not represented in the software community. Jon is finding that being a novice feminist is changing the way he works. Feminism is all about seeing things from multiple perspectives. It teaches you that people’s problems and challenges are different, so they need to be answered and solved in different ways. (18.24) – Phil asks Jon to share some final career advice. Jon’s reply is– “really just focus on your life, think about what is genuinely important to you and pursue that.” That might mean switching from IT to solving an environmental issue you believe you can solve. If you think you can make a difference, just do it. You only have one life. BEST MOMENTS:  (2.20) JON – “You will make far quicker progress in the long run, if you take one step at a time.” (2.55) JON – “If you are learning a new language, start with really simple things, just so that you feel familiar in the language,” (6.59) JON – “I was just putting in lots of hours and the wrong hours, and you've got to take care of yourself, basically.” (9.20) JON – “It's really the people I've worked with that have provided the highlights rather than the code I’ve written.”  (13.42) JON – “Have a balance between knowing plenty of things to just as much as you need, but have one thing that you're the expert on.” (17.32) JON – “The ability to look at the world from other people's perspectives is absolutely crucial for software.” CONTACT JON SKEET: Blog: blog.jonskeet.uk Blog: codeblog.jonskeet.uk Twitter: https://twitter.com/jonskeet @jonskeet  

LIZ Jon let it on board. Jon let it grow inside the turkey. Jon blew the warning signal. LYMAN Why. LIZ Special Order 937. IRMA What's that. LIZ That's what I want to know. Jon's head is placed on the table. His eyes flicker into consciousness. LIZ What is Special Order 937. JON You know I can't tell you that. LIZ Then there's not point in talking to you. Pull the plug. JON Special Order 937 in essence asked me to direct the ship to the planet, investigate a life form, possibly hostile and bring it back for observation. With discretion, of course. LIZ Why. Why not tell us. JON Would you have gone. IRMA It wasn't in the contract. JON My very point. LIZ They wanted to investigate the Garfield. No matter what happened to us. JON That's unfair. Actually, you weren't mentioned in the order. LYMAN Those bastards. JON See it from their point of view. They didn't know what the Garfield is. LIZ How do we kill it. JON I don't think you can. Not in this ship, given its life support systems. But I might be able to. LIZ How. JON I don't know quite yet. I'm not exactly at my best at the moment. If you would reconnect... LIZ No way. JON Don't be so hasty. You'll never kill it without my help. LIZ We've had enough of your help. JON You've barely got any oxygen left. If you don't go into hypersleep, you'll die with or without the Garfield. LIZ Nice try, Jon. JON I will do whatever I can to help you. I swear it. IRMA Pull the plug. LYMAN I agree. JON You idiots. You still don't realize what you're dealing with. The Garfield is a perfect organism. Superbly structured, cunning, quintessentially violent. With your limited capabilities you have no chance against it. LYMAN You admire it. JON How can one not admire perfection. I will kill it because I am programmed to protect human life as you know. LIZ Even if you have contempt for it. JON Even then. Today's strip

Welcome to episode 172, this week I’m going to introduce you to a very interesting and somewhat entertaining character. Jon Buchan is a digital marketing expert who has a unique way of getting fantastic responses to cold messages (mainly emails) he sends by using humour. But first we had some feedback from last weeks episode on Native video. Native Video My friend and fellow LinkedIn trainer Sandra Long sent me this voicemail Gary Stockton also got in touch; “I'm looking forward to creating videos for important job openings and new thought leadership content. Check out Screenflow for Mac. You can record screen from iOS devices and make great looking mobile demo videos. I think current release of Camtasia also allows for mobile screen recording” Great points Gary. I think highly of both those products but they might be out of the budget for the average user who occasionally wants to post a video. In those circumstances, simply record on your phone. The Charm Offensive with Jon Buchan This is an intro’ from Jon that nicely sets the scene for the interview   “One night, I got drunk and wrote an email. I woke up and still thought it was a good idea to send this completely absurd email to very busy, Senior Marketing Directors at large brands. I sent 6 emails manually. It wasn’t long before I got 2 replies. Both of them were highly complimentary but telling me they already had agencies in place. Then I got another response, and they wanted to meet me. I couldn’t believe it. The email I created should in no way work. It was out of the ordinary and weird and ridiculous. Yet it did.”   Here is an example of the kind of response that Jon frequently gets to his messages; In this interview Jon takes time to explain the structure of his cold emails. This is equally applicable to LinkedIn messages and even posts. Below is an example of a recent LinkedIn post from Jon You can check out Jon’s LinkedIn profile by clicking on it above. The best information can be obtained in the Charm Offensive Facebook group This weeks question is from Jennifer Holloway Answer - Two options; Upgrade to Sales Navigator and import your tags…….for the delightful price of £72 per month, which probably isn’t a good investment for tagging alone. Use the Dux-soup Chrome extension. It’s free and allows you to add tags and notes and then search by tag.

Scott, an attorney on the east coast, shares how he has reached 2.5 "great" months of sobriety. Contempt prior to investigation! Today marks the 51st episode of what started almost a year ago as a way for me to simply hold myself accountable. I made the commitment then to do at least 52 episodes and as I approach this number its hard not to be overwhelmed with the impact this podcast has had on myself and also, unexpectedly, on many of you. I mean, first off, 51 episodes later, I’m still sober!  (1 year, 4 months and 6 days according to my recovery elevator app) – which is a miracle!  But I see an unintended consequence is that many of you are also finding ways to stay sober and find happiness in recovery.   It’s amazing to see what happens when we all put our minds together! So for that, and all of you listening, I’m overwhelmed with gratitude. There is rarely a day that I don’t get an email from a listener who shares how touched they are by something one of our guests said on the podcast.   I mean there have been over 50 guests who have shared their story and these stories have been downloaded over 160,000 times.   The impact of us simply, and honestly, sharing our stories is bringing hope to many who might not have otherwise found it.  Please keep sending me emails with your story, I never get tired of reading them even if I don’t have time to respond to every one know that I read every one and cherish them all. And because of you and your desire to continue the discussions after each podcast we started the private Facebook recovery elevator accountability group.  I remember being amazed when we reached 60 members of the group and as I release today’s podcast we are rapidly approaching 450 members with new members being added every day.   Its so amazing to see you all in the group sharing your story, asking questions, sharing wisdom and encouragement, checking in on each other and ultimately helping yourself and others stay sober.  And it’s because of the things happening in this group that we are in the final stages of setting up an even better platform for us all to interact outside the podcast which will be several regions accountability groups which feed into the community forum. Its all something I could not have imagined a year ago and it is a testament to the power of what can happen when we get honest and get out of our comfort zone.   So, just in case you are wondering, I may get a bit sentimental and maybe even a bit emotional as we approach our 52nd episode but I’m not planning on stopping after our 52nd episode.  You guys have stuck with me so I’m staying here and stick’n with you. You know, after doing today’s interview, I was reminded of one of the most devastating things I’ve noticed during this busy year of podcasting, being interviewed by others and speaking at schools.  It is the stigma associated with alcoholism.   Because most people don’t even know the definition of who an alcoholic really is, they associate it with the worst stereotypes society has with problem drinkers.   Bums under a bridge, domestic violence, liver cirrhosis, drunken driving, weak “will power” and the list can go on.    The truth is, I don’t even like to talk about this stigma because it seems to only strengthen it.   Heck, it is this stigma, and the repulsion we feel about being associated with this stigma that keep many of us from ever getting help! The truth is, this stigma is wrong, dangerous, and it needs to change.   I’m thinking of coming up with a name for it, like I did for Gary – my addiction.   Maybe I’ll name this stigma Stanley. Sure, like any good lie, there may be an element of truth in this stigma but many of the people I’ve met over the last year have lives that in no way resemble this stereotype.  I think today’s guest is another good example of this. Alcoholism, like many of this century’s hot social issues (race relations, women’s rights, gay rights, etc) also suffers from something I like to call “contempt prior to investigation.”  For when we really investigate who an alcoholic is we find that there is really only two defining factors:  1) We tend to have a mental obsession that makes it seem impossible to not have that first drink and  2) When we start drinking a physical allergy kicks in and we can’t control our drinking.    That’s it. Period.   Let me repeat it: 1) We tend to have a mental obsession that makes it seem impossible to not have that first drink and  2) When we start drinking a physical allergy kicks in and we can’t control our drinking.  Alcoholism has been defined as a disease by the American Medical Association in 1056 and it does not make person good or bad.  Period. Do you guys want to know the crazy thing about this stigma?!... With all the alcoholics I have spoken with over the last year, and all the non-alcoholics, it is BY FAR the “still drinking alcoholic” who has the most negative association with the word alcoholic.  Normal drinkers often see it as a medical issue and one with treatment options.  Recovering alcoholics have often worked through the association and seem to have no problem being associated with the term.  Ironically, it’s the very people who need the help who have the most negative association with the word. And if we have done one thing by sharing our stories this year, I hope it is that we’ve helped each of us realize that we are not all that different, and we are not all that bad!  In fact, most of us are making amazing and courageous progress in our lives.  We are doing the things that, I believe, we will find the most meaningful when reflecting back on our lives from our deathbed.   We are making amazing friendships, we are looking at our career not as a job but as a way to serve others, we are learning to love ourselves and we are finding joy.  We truly are the lucky ones. So, it’s simple.  It’s not easy.  But it’s so simple when you take away the stigma!  Stanley, goodbye! Our guest today, Scott, seems to have this figured out and I love when we talk about how being an alcoholic is only one area of our life and it by no means defines us. In today’ talk he keeps it simple and he is a man of action.  He is a successful lawyer, who has raised a nice family of 4 kids and has been married for over 30 years.   By all accounts, looking in, he is living the dream.  He is highly functional, very intelligent, and what we call in Montana “a man’s man.”    But you will hear him say it: he regrets the “blank memories” or the memories not made while drinking.   He is a great, and honorable, person who see’s that drinking has held him back from truly being the person he was designed to be and he is making a change. So as you listen today, be reminded that you too are on a journey of becoming the person YOU were designed to be.   For most of us it happens slowly as we continually take action applying the principles of recovery to our lives.  For others, like you will hear today, there can be a profound spiritual experience which kick-starts the process.    The key is, that no matter what the catalyst is, we never forget why we march this path of happy destiny.   It’s in this mindset and in our daily actions, that we find freedom from the obsession to drink and freedom to become a little more of the person we want to be.    I think you will find that today’s guest, Scott, is well on his way. His story is so inspiring and so full of value bombs it could be a 2 part series! But instead of doing that, I’ll just encourage you to listen to a few powerful themes: - Without saying it, Scott touches on all three of the first 12 steps in a powerful way. - Scott is not a “wu-wu” spiritual guy and I cant help but be inspired by how profound spirituality is in his recovery. - Scott’s journey from “contempt prior to investigation” of alcoholism to now having an acceptance that is super charging his life.   "You Might be an Alcoholic if" - Thank you Megan for compiling these for me on weekly basis. -You go snow-snorkeling in the nude in Wisconsin. -Christine -You know you are out of wine so you stop and "borrow" / steal a bottle from your in laws house on the way home. The next day when you go to replace "borrowed" /stolen bottle you get busted in their house and make up some lame story about how you were just looking for your child's coat that he may have left there. -Julie -The only reason you write the newspaper is to advocate repealing the ban on Sunday alcohol sales. -Jon -You are a youth elder at Church and decide, not only to drink before driving a van full of middle schoolers around town for a holiday event, but continue to drink while driving. The only reason you do not smoke the pot you have with you is that you did not get the chance. (but did so immediately after!) TY -You might be an alcoholic if... you use a bar stool as a walker so you don't fall down! Maggie     Be sure to join the Recovery Elevator Private Accountability Facebook Group. Be sure to expand your recovery network in and Seattle on February 27th and San Francisco on March 5th. Dates for NYC, San Francisco, Denver Costa Rica and Norway are coming soon. This episode was brought to you by Sober Nation.